# Taller beads- possible?



## Baby25

A quick simple question but to increase the contact angle of the beads, therefore resulting in taller beads, would the oils or wax be the biggest contributer to this? I've always had good beadage but seem quite 'short' compared to some professional waxes I've tried.

I know this doesn't determine what is a good wax or not, it's just something I thought could be worth having a play to achieve taller beads but unsure where the focus should be.

For reference, this is what I'm getting but wanted to try getting the beads to stand taller:


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## cipriani

Try additives, its a quick way of doing so and as you say doesnt mean the wax is any better but it does indicate the surface tension and water repellent properties


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## Baby25

By additives, do you mean experimenting with different oils or adding other elements?


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## alan hanson

why do want the beads to stand taller? and how much taller? do you measure them before you drive off? something that i have never thought about tight beading yes but not this


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## Baby25

Of course I do, I measure each and every one to ensure consistent height 😁 

As above, it was more out of curiosity as to how it is possible to increase contact angle, thus showing increased surface tension (if my science is accurate there  ) which means less 'bond' to the surface which in turn reduces the friction between the water and panel. 

So there is a certain practical gain to be had from making the beads taller, just curious as to how this is actually achieved as I enjoy the experimental side of wax making so if I know what element to focus on then I can test this accordingly.


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## Bero

I guess contact angle will be a direct corrolation to hydrophobia? Increase one you;ll increase contact angle. I'm not sure how that affects bead heights though.

Anyway I think most oils are really carriers and evaporate off once applied to the paint? So they should not make a big difference.


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## Baby25

Yes, I'm thinking now that 'surface tension' possibly isn't quite accurate when describing contact angle, possibly. I don't claim to be a scientist lol so I may have used the wrong terminology and maybe hydropobia/hydrophobic may have been more accurate.


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## Baby25

No, having checked to confirm, high surface tension IS accurate to describe the contact angle formed from the beads on the surface of the panel so I was correct using this to describe what I was referring to.


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## lemansblue92

what vehicle is that in those pics?


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## Baby25

It's an Arden Blue bumper off our '07 Astra VXR.


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## Baby25

Here are a couple of pics to show the difference in beadage.

My wax:









Professional wax:









Both waxes side by side:


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## 11redrex

You have three forces acting here. 
Cohesion (the water sticking to itself), adhesion (the water sticking to the surface), and gravity (trying to push the bead flat). 
Can't change gravity, can't change cohesion without adding something to the water, or cooling it to nearly freezing point. So the only way to change the shape of the bead is to decrease adhesion to the surface. Ie, by using a really good wax,


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## Baby25

So would I be right to think that to achieve beadage of the height below, a small amount of silicone would be needed in the blend or can the 'adhesion be lowered further via natural ingredients to achieve the sort of height shown?


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## 11redrex

I've never tried to mix any of my own waxes, so I have no idea what you could mix successfully. I used to coat my bicycle frame and bars in WD40 before the winter, I've used graphite grease in bearings, telfon spray on hinges, and silicone grease spray on various things. 
WD40 obviously wouldn't work in a wax, although I did hear that it was mostly paraffin, so.....
Graphite is probably going to be dark grey so not a lot of good,
No idea where you'd get teflon from or how you'd mix it into a wax, 
Same goes for a suitable silcone.


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## ashiohsiao

Hi Babyalien, 

Just wondering if yo managed to find how to make the beads taller in the end? I myself am trying to figure out what helps with this aspect as well, hope you can provide me with some insight~

Much appreciated!


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## Baby25

No not really. Had a little play with the blend by rebalancing oils and solvent and has maybe helped a tiny bit, but could just be the placebo effect. Really not sure if it is possible without additives or not as feeling like I've pushed it as far as I can with just wax, oils and solvent though I'll keep trying as I'm a determined bugger haha.


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## cargainz

hmm now that winter is setting in, is it time for me to venture into home brews... probably not but these threads make interdasting reading.


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## Bod42

Both waxes do look good but the professional wax definitely has the edge. What is the professional wax? Maybe you can find out what ingrediants it has so you know which avenue to head towards


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## shelton

@ Soft99 we use a specifically designed synthetic polymer for hydrophobicity, and I doubt you'll be able to beat our team of scientists with some household products or natural oils (umm, let me know if you do haha)

Your best bet is searching for commercially available polymers made for hydrophobicity, and with appropriate solubility in your solvent, and/or melting point for your equipment. Also sufficient hardness for durability.

If you can't get small enough amounts, try asking a suitable friend to order a 'sample' through their business. You might even get it for free haha


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## martec06

Try some lanolin

Sendt fra min EVA-L09 med Tapatalk


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## Spoony

It's always possible. It's pet of the experimentation.


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## HEADPHONES

Anyone remember years ago on DW there was a popular product that came as a clear liquid that you'd ADD to your sealant or liquid wax to POWER BOOST it's performance?!


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## tosh

HEADPHONES said:


> Anyone remember years ago on DW there was a popular product that came as a clear liquid that you'd ADD to your sealant or liquid wax to POWER BOOST it's performance?!


Polycharger?

https://www.autogeek.net/polycharger.html

http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=35271

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## Nathan_jones

Contact angle has a lot to do with the texture of the paint work. A very smooth surface will sheet well and bead the water that is left. 

Look at nano sealants etc, the actually cause a chemical reaction which creates nano tubes on the paint. 

Those nano tubes push the water up off the paint but also contain it in the bead so you get taller beads.


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## Micke7406

When I want high beadage I experiment with different mixtures of paraffin and coconut.also uses ceramic oil.
Apologies for my poor English


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## AndyN01

Nathan_jones said:


> Contact angle has a lot to do with the texture of the paint work. A very smooth surface will sheet well and bead the water that is left.
> 
> Look at nano sealants etc, the actually cause a chemical reaction which creates nano tubes on the paint.
> 
> Those nano tubes push the water up off the paint but also contain it in the bead so you get taller beads.


As I was reading through this thread I started to wonder about the prep?

This may be complete drivel, but stay with me......

If we go to microscopic levels then the clear coat will look like a mountain range.

With quality prep (polishing and/or glazing) it'll look rather more like some rolling hills.

If water adhesion is the issue then rolling hills will be less adhesive than mountain ranges giving better sheeting and beading (as above :thumb.

Maybe the professional product is better at turning the mountain ranges to rolling hills than the normal one?

And, given that pretty much every square inch of paintwork will be microscopically different to the next, is that why we see differences in beading across the same panel?

Just some chuck 'em out there thoughts to brighten up a dull and dismay Saturday afternoon.  :wave:

Andy.


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## Micke7406

AndyN01 said:


> As I was reading through this thread I started to wonder about the prep?
> 
> This may be complete drivel, but stay with me......
> 
> If we go to microscopic levels then the clear coat will look like a mountain range.
> 
> With quality prep (polishing and/or glazing) it'll look rather more like some rolling hills.
> 
> If water adhesion is the issue then rolling hills will be less adhesive than mountain ranges giving better sheeting and beading (as above :thumb.
> 
> Maybe the professional product is better at turning the mountain ranges to rolling hills than the normal one?
> 
> And, given that pretty much every square inch of paintwork will be microscopically different to the next, is that why we see differences in beading across the same panel?
> 
> Just some chuck 'em out there thoughts to brighten up a dull and dismay Saturday afternoon.  :wave:
> 
> Andy.


A good wax 
seals these peaks and you get better contact angle, and finer pearls which rolls off easier:detailer:


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## PIP_Chemicals

Here’s one to pickle your head. Higher contact angle doesn’t mean lower roll of angle.

What is roll of angle? Loosely, lower roll of angle means less force to get red bead to roll off. So lower speed if you’re driving.

We’ve tested one popular ceramic which has high contact angle but almost double the roll of that would be normal. Basically, it looks fab but it’s water spot central because those beads are really not moving easily!


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## micke740614

Micke7406 said:


> När jag vill ha höga pärlor experimenterar jag med olika blandningar av paraffin och kokos. använder även keramisk olja.
> Ursäkta min dåliga engelska
> [/CITAT]


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## HEADPHONES

Forensic Detailing channel said different chemicals in the wax lend to different contact angles.
Carnauba around 90° rising with PTFE and with the Fluorine compounds giving the tallest


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