# Hid conversion



## gregb (Feb 1, 2009)

does anyone know of an outfit that do headlight hid conversions in Aberdeenshire. Recommendations greatly appreciated.
I really need to improve my headlight candles, there verging on dangerous.

Although I could buy a kit myself and fit myself and wold have no worries technical the space to work in is a nightmare so I'm looking to pay for someone else to skin their knuckles :lol:


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## macca666 (Mar 30, 2010)

Might be wrong but wasn't there something recently about cars failing mots with aftermarket hid's fitted without washers or self levellers? Just something to bear in mind or confirm at least before you go ahead with anything.


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## *rob* (Apr 7, 2012)

As long as they create the correct beam pattern they are fine

With regards to the other bits, from what I understand if the car is fitted with washers or self levelling at the time of test then they must work, if not there then they won't be tested


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## mr v6 (Jun 29, 2007)

If you don't have projector style headlamp lenses you'll want the (R) type bulb, e.g H7(R). If you're tester is 'friendly' & you don't fit those ridiculous 'look at me' blue ones you'll be fine, mine have been for the last 6 years:thumb:.


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## gregb (Feb 1, 2009)

I'm aware of the issues, I have washers but no self levelling, if it fails an mot I'll swap back to get the ticket ticket :thumb:

Better than ending in a ditch with current dodgy lights.

No aberdonians with knowledge of anyone who could do this for me then ?


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## Shiny (Apr 23, 2007)

Don't be disillusioned, HIDs are great in the dry, but they are useless at this time of year when the roads are wet!


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## sirkuk (Mar 5, 2012)

Shiny said:


> Don't be disillusioned, HIDs are great in the dry, but they are useless at this time of year when the roads are wet!


Can't say I've had any bother  Manufacturer fitted and best headlights I've ever had.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk


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## possul (Nov 14, 2008)

macca666 said:


> Might be wrong but wasn't there something recently about cars failing mots with aftermarket hid's fitted without washers or self levellers? Just something to bear in mind or confirm at least before you go ahead with anything.


Shouldn't matter if there retro fitted, I asked our mot lads on this


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## rob3rto (May 23, 2007)

gregb said:


> does anyone know of an outfit that do headlight hid conversions in Aberdeenshire. Recommendations greatly appreciated.
> I really need to improve my headlight candles, there verging on dangerous.
> 
> Although I could buy a kit myself and fit myself and wold have no worries technical the space to work in is a nightmare so I'm looking to pay for someone else to skin their knuckles :lol:


Get a multimeter and see what voltage the bulbs are getting. Bulbs can lose a LOT of lumens through poor voltage.

eg

A bulb rated at 1000 lumens at 12.8 Volts: 
10.5V : 510 lumens
11.0V : 597 lumens
11.5V : 695 lumens
12.0V : 803 lumens
12.5V : 923 lumens
12.8V : 1000 lumens ←Rated output voltage
13.0V : 1054 lumens
13.5V : 1198 lumens
14.0V : 1356 lumens ←Rated life voltage
14.5V : 1528 lumens


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## clarkey1269 (Dec 27, 2010)

IMO unless done properly dont bother.

just sticking them and hoping for the best be prepared to shot in the face with by the 'Anti HID mafia' and be prepared every tom dick and harry flashing you due to glare


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## *rob* (Apr 7, 2012)

clarkey1269 said:


> IMO unless done properly dont bother.
> 
> just sticking them and hoping for the best be prepared to shot in the face with by the 'Anti HID mafia' and be prepared every tom dick and harry flashing you due to glare


I do agree that once fitted they should be set up properly on a beam setter


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## craigeh123 (Dec 26, 2011)

if the beam pattern is correct and the light is of the correct colour at present i cant see a reason i could fail them . What car are you wanting to put them on ?


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## Keir (Aug 31, 2010)

Shiny said:


> Don't be disillusioned, HIDs are great in the dry, but they are useless at this time of year when the roads are wet!


Why's this.


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## mr v6 (Jun 29, 2007)

Shiny said:


> Don't be disillusioned, HIDs are great in the dry, but they are useless at this time of year when the roads are wet!





Keir said:


> Why's this.


I'm wondering this myself. Tonight was foggy & the HID's were much more prominent. Roads can be wet any time of the year, so I'm not sure what difference it makes whether it's winter of spring..


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## Keir (Aug 31, 2010)

Yeah, plus when it's white (snow) the light will bounce/go further.


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## Shiny (Apr 23, 2007)

mr v6 said:


> I'm wondering this myself. Tonight was foggy & the HID's were much more prominent. Roads can be wet any time of the year, so I'm not sure what difference it makes whether it's winter of spring..


Sorry, i'll rephrase....they are not very good when the roads are wet, particularly at this this time of year due to the nights drawing in earlier and the roads tending to be wetter due to inclement weather and taking longer to dry out :thumb:

It's all to do with the eyes interpreting colour temperature and other sciencey things, but my experience of (factory fitted) HIDs is that they are superb in the dry and pants in the wet.


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## gregb (Feb 1, 2009)

clarkey1269 said:


> IMO unless done properly dont bother.
> 
> just sticking them and hoping for the best be prepared to shot in the face with by the 'Anti HID mafia' and be prepared every tom dick and harry flashing you due to glare


I intend doing them properly, that's why I'm asking for recommendations on who can do it for me :thumb:


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## gregb (Feb 1, 2009)

craigeh123 said:


> if the beam pattern is correct and the light is of the correct colour at present i cant see a reason i could fail them . What car are you wanting to put them on ?


Xtype Jag


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## craigeh123 (Dec 26, 2011)

Now I know why you don't fancy doing them there's not a lot of room !


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## alan_mcc (Oct 28, 2008)

Ill do it. What's it worth?


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## Guitarjon (Jul 13, 2012)

I retro fitted some HIDs before they became illegal. They were fantastic and really helped vision in any condition. I've currently got a Mini Cooper sd on hire with them fitted as standard and its made me want to fit them on my current mk3 mx5. They are fantastic. 

To be honest if they are set up properly I don't feel they are hazardous to other road users but I'm not sure if I'd get away with the MOT test now which is the only thing stopping me getting a set for my current car. 

I am quite friendly with my MOT tester but don't want to put him in the position of answering me when he and I know they are illegal. Would you mention it or just go ahead?


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## craigeh123 (Dec 26, 2011)

There was talk of them coming into the rules but nothing yet ! If the beam pattern is correct you can't fail them so easiest thing to do fit them and go to the centre and ask them to check the pattern . The kits are so cheap now its worth a gamble


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## gregb (Feb 1, 2009)

alan_mcc said:


> Ill do it. What's it worth?


Name your price :thumb:


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## xJay1337 (Jul 20, 2012)

Guitarjon said:


> I retro fitted some HIDs before they became illegal. They were fantastic and really helped vision in any condition. I've currently got a Mini Cooper sd on hire with them fitted as standard and its made me want to fit them on my current mk3 mx5. They are fantastic.
> 
> To be honest if they are set up properly I don't feel they are hazardous to other road users but I'm not sure if I'd get away with the MOT test now which is the only thing stopping me getting a set for my current car.
> 
> I am quite friendly with my MOT tester but don't want to put him in the position of answering me when he and I know they are illegal. Would you mention it or just go ahead?


They are *not* illegal. So long as the beam pattern is nicely defined with a straight edge that's what matters.

:wall::wall::wall::wall::wall:


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## craigeh123 (Dec 26, 2011)

ive done some reading up now . if your headlamps are reflector type and your using h7 bulbs you need an h7r hid kit , the bulb is modified for use in reflector headlights giving an apparently correct beam pattern . i think i may get some soon as th elights on my zr are like candles tbh


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## gregb (Feb 1, 2009)

Seems like the thread is stimulating some discussion on the rights and wrongs. I've done all my homework on the legal side and type of kit that's appropriate for my car, I was just asking if anyone could recommend someone to perform the work.


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## craigeh123 (Dec 26, 2011)

If you were close I'd do it for you but your a tad far away !


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

xJay1337 said:


> They are *not* illegal. So long as the beam pattern is nicely defined with a straight edge that's what matters.
> 
> :wall::wall::wall::wall::wall:


You require self leveling and washers to make them legal.

To get them through an MOT you need a "friendly" tester as pointed out as without the above they are ilegal.

Is responses to the OP, they might make your visibility better, but quite often these lights are a danger others on the road.

Aberdeen has more than enough poorly fitted lights.


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## xJay1337 (Jul 20, 2012)

Kerr said:


> You require self leveling and washers to make them legal.
> 
> To get them through an MOT you need a "friendly" tester as pointed out as without the above they are ilegal.
> 
> ...


Errr, no you don't.
To get them through an MOT you need the correct beam pattern and NOTHING ELSE. I have this in written confirmation from VOSA themselves.

If you want to get technical then they need to meet the same regulations that has governed OEM Xenon fitment for the past 15 years.. That being said there are some cars without self leveling or headlight washers that have had Xenons from factory. That's in terms of being "legal".

But to pass an MOT you only need a correct and valid beam pattern and if you have that, then you are good to go.

Here's another post by myself in another topic..

And the main bit of information you need.

It was not myself who asked but a forum buddy.



> "Hello,
> I hope I have chosen the correct department and you can help me out. I have heard a lot of 2nd hand information about new rules coming into force for MOT testing and would like to hear it from the horses mouth!
> To cut to the chase..... I have an after market HID kit fitted to the dipped beam headlights of my 2001 VW Golf into after market projector lens headlights. I believe my beam has the correct pattern but I do not have headlight washers or a self levelling system in the headlights. Question being once the new rules are fully enforced will my car fail it's MOT with HIDS fitted but no washers or levelling system? Or will it pass providing the beam pattern is correct?
> Many thanks for your help"





VOSA said:


> "Dear Mr. XXXXX
> 
> Thank you for your email enquiry dated 16th March 2012, concerning the
> above.
> ...


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## SteveyG (Apr 1, 2007)

xJay1337 said:


> They are *not* illegal. So long as the beam pattern is nicely defined with a straight edge that's what matters.
> 
> :wall::wall::wall::wall::wall:


Beam pattern is one thing, but what about the extra light above the cut-off? All headlights emit light above the cut-off otherwise you wouldn't be able to tell they were turned on unless you looked low enough - but the ones designed for discharge lamps keep this to a sensible level. Just sticking Chinese lamps in a normal headlight will increase the glare seen by other road users by 2 or 3 times which is a real danger on dark roads.

All 35W HID lamps emit more than 2000 lumens btw.


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

xJay1337 said:


> Errr, no you don't.
> To get them through an MOT you need the correct beam pattern and NOTHING ELSE. I have this in written confirmation from VOSA themselves.
> 
> If you want to get technical then they need to meet the same regulations that has governed OEM Xenon fitment for the past 15 years.. That being said there are some cars without self leveling or headlight washers that have had Xenons from factory. That's in terms of being "legal".
> ...


That completely contradicts their own published documents and what is given to MOT testers to use as a guide.

Never have I seen that opinion before and all you need to do us Google it to find countless other documents saying otherwise and plenty of failed cars too.


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## Shiny (Apr 23, 2007)

http://www.transportoffice.gov.uk/c...nualsandguides/mottestingmanualsandguides.htm

Section 1.7 covers headlights. As xJay says, it states that vehicles with HIDs "_may_" have self levellers and headlamp washers and, where these are fitted, they must be operational. There is no compulsory requirement for the levellers/washers, but if your vehicle is fitted with them, they must work.


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## Guitarjon (Jul 13, 2012)

Spoken with my mot guy today. He said they are illegal on my car as I don't have self levelers or washers. He also said he wouldn't be worried as long as they passed the beam check thing.


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

Shiny said:


> http://www.transportoffice.gov.uk/c...nualsandguides/mottestingmanualsandguides.htm
> 
> Section 1.7 covers headlights. As xJay says, it states that vehicles with HIDs "_may_" have self levellers and headlamp washers and, where these are fitted, they must be operational. There is no compulsory requirement for the levellers/washers, but if your vehicle is fitted with them, they must work.


I can't view that file on my phone but that isn't what the official Vosa quote is.

There was an issue with some early factory spec cars not having self leveling or washers and some of these were failing the MOT.

Maybe they have allowed leeway for such cars as they were legal at the time and the cost to rectify would be big.

Vosa clearly states all xenon and hid lights require self leveling and washers. It is very clear.


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## bigmc (Mar 22, 2010)

Kerr said:


> I can't view that file on my phone but that isn't what the official Vosa quote is.
> 
> There was an issue with some early factory spec cars not having self leveling or washers and some of these were failing the MOT.
> 
> ...


It also states that it's not permitted to fit a HID burner in a halogen lamp, no arguments against that one self levelling or not.


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## xJay1337 (Jul 20, 2012)

bigmc said:


> It also states that it's not permitted to fit a HID burner in a halogen lamp, no arguments against that one self levelling or not.


Honda Civic (the new rocket shape) have OEM Xenons which are in reflector lenses.
There is no legislation about the type of headlight which is used (projector or reflector)... It's just about the quality of the beam (leaving aside the disussion about washers/levellers)

There are some very good reflector lens OEM Xenon setups out there but they are few and far between because it's "easier" to use projectors.



Kerr said:


> I can't view that file on my phone but that isn't what the official Vosa quote is.
> 
> There was an issue with some early factory spec cars not having self leveling or washers and some of these were failing the MOT.
> 
> ...


No offense buddy but I am not going to enter into a discussion with you.
For three reasons; one you are wrong and two, despite proof (in writing from VOSA themselves in addition to the documentation actually given to MOT testers; this is the handbook of which if you turn to section 1.7 you will see, that reason for rejection is NOT headlight washer or self leveling missing) you continue to ignore the _facts _at hand.
The third reason being I have to deal with a lot of threads like this and it's annoying because there are plenty of discussion topics about it, almost every one ending in an argument, rather than read and become informed people post up nonsense which spouts more nonsense then yet more nonsense (from all parties) and frankly anything containing the word "HID" should be banned from the web in general.

You mention official vosa "quote" but there is nowhere on VOSA's website (or any government website) that states to pass an MOT your car must have self levelling and washers if fitted with Xenons.
It does however clearly say "if fitted they must work...."

If you go to the AA.com or Auto Express you will see the same list which has been copied and pasted by idiots (after it was written by idiots) which is *not* valid or legally binding. In these lists it will say that you do need self levelling and washers but unfortunately for you, this is not valid neither is it from VOSA.

If your MOT tester would fail you for washers or/and self leveling not being fitted then you should find an MOT tester who complies with the law and is not an idiot, no offense.

I've had my car MOT'd (at a garage I go to regularly and I'm friendly with but do not let things pass.. eg I got an advisory for my straight through exhaust..) did not even mention anything about my headlights. This was in what, August, so the new laws had been in place since January of this year.









Not an MOT pass.










MOT Pass.

Despite saying I would not get into a discussion with you I have written the above.
I shall leave it up to you to either accept the proof (along side the shall I remind you CONFIRMATION FROM VOSA THEMSELVES) and if you look at the MOT testers handbook yourself at section 1.7 - And if you want to continue being a non-believer (like the Justin Bieber fans) you can do it by yourself.

:driver:


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

You can dismiss me all you wish but all you have is one personal letter that could be potentially wrong.

There is an abundance of information that says you and your personal letter is wrong or at best vague with information.

This is the official wording.


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## Junior Bear (Sep 2, 2008)

I just read the second page


The part about performance vehicles with hardly any luggage space and stiff suspension is a bit of a weird thing to say

I know they would have less chance to dazzle people because the light position won't move as much. But it possibly still could. Weird one IMO lol


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## Guitarjon (Jul 13, 2012)

I class mine as a high performance car with little luggage area and stupid suspension, mx5 with after market suspension and a small boot!


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## bigmc (Mar 22, 2010)

xJay1337 said:


> Honda Civic (the new rocket shape) have OEM Xenons which are in reflector lenses.
> There is no legislation about the type of headlight which is used (projector or reflector)... It's just about the quality of the beam (leaving aside the disussion about washers/levellers)
> 
> There are some very good reflector lens OEM Xenon setups out there but they are few and far between because it's "easier" to use projectors.


Yes there are lots of cars that use a reflector based lamp for xenons, you're missing the point though they were designed for it not had some cobbled together conversion put into them.
I too have an email from VOSA I quote
"As far as the Department is concerned the *headlamps must be approved for use with HID bulbs*, automatic headlamp levelling should be provided and headlamp washing. If the Hella headlamps have been approved for use with approved HID bulbs then they can be fitted provided washing and auto levelling is also fitted. Manual headlamp levelling by a switch in the car is not sufficient. Cars with self levelling suspension are considered to be fitted with automatic headlamp levelling. You will need to check with Hella to confirm that these lamps are approved as HID units and have not been converted by the seller"
The excerpt in bold says it all, no halogen lamp is approved for use with hids ergo you can't fit a conversion kit. Basically if the car doesn't fit a D2S or D2R bulb you can't fit HIDs.
I guess it's true you can't teach pork...


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## xJay1337 (Jul 20, 2012)

That's true, however I have checked with Hella - My celis lights are H7 fitment. However the dynabeam and D2S or something.
However Hella themselves said the Projector housing are the same as the ones in the Dynabeam - just that to reduce the cost in terms of going through expensive approval tests they didn't bother.

At the MOT the MOT tester is not allowed to go "routing" for things.. eg they can't check behind headlight cases etc to check bulb type. They would not know. 
All that needs to be known for the MOT test, as per the MOT testing manual, the reply from Vosa that I had (which is actually talking about lumens and what not which makes a lot more sense) then your car will pass the MOT. Besides as it already says if the car has stiff suspension you don't need self leveling.

I have already said in terms of being "legal" then they are expected to have self levelling and washers but in terms of passing an MOT (and being legal and passing an MOT are not always the same thing) then they only test on beam pattern.


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## SteveyG (Apr 1, 2007)

xJay1337 said:


> MOT Pass.


MOT fail. The beam pattern is reversed.


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## xJay1337 (Jul 20, 2012)

It's American since that was the first picture I could find. 
so yes if you reversed it, it would work. 

The point was to provide general information regarding cut off and glare and that one is an acceptable beam pattern and the other is not.


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## SteveyG (Apr 1, 2007)

xJay1337 said:


> It's American since that was the first picture I could find.
> so yes if you reversed it, it would work.
> 
> The point was to provide general information regarding cut off and glare and that one is an acceptable beam pattern and the other is not.


Still isn't necessarily legal if a HID lamp has been inserted into a headlamp designed for halogen lamps.


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## Grommit (May 3, 2011)

No chance to buy / fit aftermarket Xenons?

They are better afterall??


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## xJay1337 (Jul 20, 2012)

Yeah you can do. I have done and have had no problems on the 4 times I got pulled over and neither on my MOT :thumb:



SteveyG said:


> Still isn't necessarily legal if a HID lamp has been inserted into a headlamp designed for halogen lamps.


and how would they know what kind of bulb there is?
Oem Xenons have ignitors, they are exactly the same as the aftermarket HID kits except normally the wire from the ignitor to the bulb is hidden. A decent aftermarket HID installation can look very OEM.
And an MOT tester is not permitted to open the back of your headlights (the modern cars have covers you twist/remove to access bulbs) to check what kind of bulb they are. And as long as it's marked "E" the other legislative markings are normally in impossible to see places on the headlight unit itself.. eg mine are at the bottom of the headlight, the part that bolts into the car.


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## Captain Pugwash (Mar 23, 2011)

just to add some fuel to the fire ...I asked my mate (an MOT tester) and his reply was " I can't fail them as there is not a code for that to enter on the computer" 

Mine are still fitted and have been for about 8 years I bought them long before they got common on ebay etc and are made by Hella and have a safety cut out, warning stickers ...and fitted to projection headlights. Until there is a ********** ruling I shall continue to have them ...mind you the car does about 3000 miles a year and very seldom out at night anyway


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## bigmc (Mar 22, 2010)

xJay1337 said:


> Yeah you can do. I have done and have had no problems on the 4 times I got pulled over and neither on my MOT :thumb:
> 
> and how would they know what kind of bulb there is?
> Oem Xenons have ignitors, they are exactly the same as the aftermarket HID kits except normally the wire from the ignitor to the bulb is hidden. A decent aftermarket HID installation can look very OEM.
> And an MOT tester is not permitted to open the back of your headlights (the modern cars have covers you twist/remove to access bulbs) to check what kind of bulb they are. And as long as it's marked "E" the other legislative markings are normally in impossible to see places on the headlight unit itself.. eg mine are at the bottom of the headlight, the part that bolts into the car.


HIDs are night and day compared to halogen, any mot tester will know the difference as soon as they light up and the manual gives 4 differences to spot them.


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## xJay1337 (Jul 20, 2012)

You miss my point.
You are saying they have to be DS2 type (for example). And that eg H4/H7 retrofit kits are not allowed.

Were as you can't tell what fitment type they are from looking at them.


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## bigmc (Mar 22, 2010)

Yes you can, a H4 kit is easy to spot from a quick glance. The mot tester will not be blind so looking simply for wires protruding from the headlight unit to the ballast is enough to notice them - wiring harness is now part of the test too so they have t look at it for security and damage.


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## xJay1337 (Jul 20, 2012)

Obviously never seen some OEM fitments lol


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## craigeh123 (Dec 26, 2011)

I think its probably safe to say the legality of retrofits is a bit dubious , but provided the beam pattern is correct I'd be happy to run them and infact after reading this thread and now knowing there's special bulbs for h7 reflector lamps I've been looking at maybe getting some in 4300k or 5000k . And if the beam pattern is correct I personally wouldn't fail them on mot . Infact until it says in the rules that hid retrofit kits are to be failed ( and even then how could you tell really ) I cant see how you could fail them .


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## Guitarjon (Jul 13, 2012)

I'm going to buy some on pay day and get the beam checked by my MOT guy. I really do feel they improve vision. Whether others do or not that's up to them.


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## craigeh123 (Dec 26, 2011)

Lucky for me I am an mot guy and therefore can check my own when I get them  , the beam pattern on this zr and my previous one is crap anyway so I'd hope the hid kit may improve it lol


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## bigmc (Mar 22, 2010)

Have you got free form reflectors in the zr or glass refractor? HIDs are shocking in the latter.


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## Teddy (Dec 15, 2007)

I find all these HID type light very annoying and dangerous on motorways. 

If I'm on the inside lane the cars on the outer lanes have beams pointing in towards my lane - making them dazzling in the mirrors. Glad I've got an auto dimming mirror.

Also when looking in the mirrors the fact they are so bright means I can't get a fix on the car they are attached to meaning I can't judge it's speed so easily. So I have to study the cars position in the mirrors more than I would with normal lights. This means I'm not spending time looking forwards! This makes these lights more dangerous for me and other road users.

I think they should be banned from all cars. If standard lights aren't bright enough for you then slow down. Headlights always had a max wattage limit to avoid dazzling other road users. These light seem to have got round those rules.


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

Guitarjon said:


> I'm going to buy some on pay day and get the beam checked by my MOT guy. I really do feel they improve vision. Whether others do or not that's up to them.


There isn't any argument that they will improve your vision.

It is the other road users that are often blinded by either poorly set up lights or over uneven roads or under acceleration etc, your car won't be able to adjust the beam from blinding others.


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## andy monty (Dec 29, 2007)

Ok so the mot man might be "happy" but surely the insurance company won't be as your taking the car out of type approval i assume these hid kits don't come e marked and the after market projector headlamps are only approved when fitted with a incandescent light bulb??

Im honestly curious


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## 182_Blue (Oct 25, 2005)

Teddy said:


> I find all these HID type light very annoying and dangerous on motorways.
> 
> If I'm on the inside lane the cars on the outer lanes have beams pointing in towards my lane - making them dazzling in the mirrors. Glad I've got an auto dimming mirror.
> 
> ...


Here here IMO, 9 points on license for fitting them too :thumb:can you tell i hate them :lol:, especially those ridiculously blue ones


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## Transit (Nov 18, 2007)

rob3rto said:


> Get a multimeter and see what voltage the bulbs are getting. Bulbs can lose a LOT of lumens through poor voltage.
> 
> eg
> 
> ...


Interesting, where did this info come from?


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## bigmc (Mar 22, 2010)

andy monty said:


> Ok so the mot man might be "happy" but surely the insurance company won't be as your taking the car out of type approval i assume these hid kits don't come e marked and the after market projector headlamps are only approved when fitted with a incandescent light bulb??
> 
> Im honestly curious


Correct on both points.


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## gregb (Feb 1, 2009)

Strewth, I only asked for a fitter recommendation :lol::lol::lol:


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## xJay1337 (Jul 20, 2012)

Kerr said:


> There isn't any argument that they will improve your vision.
> 
> It is the other road users that are often blinded by either poorly set up lights or over uneven roads or under acceleration etc, your car won't be able to adjust the beam from blinding others.


That's correct but I'm not being biased here - I am blinding more by certain Audis.. mainly the big barges and the 07 to 09 A3s... with their factory fitted then with any of my mate's cars who had stuck some HIDs in some quality aftermarket headlights.

As for insurance, most Ebay kits are e marked otherwise they would not be able to be sold. Quality is variable but I've had my current set for 18 months and despite my automatic headlights best effort to blow the ballasts by turning them on and off under passing trees, they are still going strong.

In terms of insurance covering you.. simples, you just say when they ask what modifications you have "aftermarket headlights" and "uprated bulbs".
If you have done that then you are fully legal with your insurance. Having a modified car I am pretty aware of the regs regarding it since every single mod is declared to my insurance policy.. Lucky I only pay for power increases and not visual mods, that includes my Hella lights and HID kit or suspension changes.. 

As for acceleration well most cars if they are on uprated suspension do not pitch (at all basically) especially if front wheel drive under acceleration. There's a vid on youtube of me at GTI International on the drag strip (failing badly I might add) and you can see the amazing lack of pitch when I do the standing start.. even the snap gearchange produces no real change of attitude. If you have a Renault Scenic though well you'd have problems! 

As for the argument about banning cars with HID, I think this is anti-technology. We used to have crappy incandescent bulbs.. want to go back to those ala VW Beetle (original) and Ford Model T because the halogens which replaced them are more blinding too? Things evolve and most new cars as of MY2010/2011 and newer have very good Xenon systems which are not blinding in the slightest.

The important thing to remember is that all cars headlights can blind you. Not just HIDs.

I get blinded by just as many poorly adjusted halogen headlights as I do with Saxo's with HIDs in standard reflector headlights (pretty appalling) so to say all HIDs are blinding or that they should be banned because 1 in 10 are (for example) is not really fair.. like saying driving should be banned because 1 in 10 cars are uninsured... logically doesn't work. 
As for the maximum wattage it's nothing to do with that.. Most factory Xenon setups are between 35 and 45w where as a standard halogen bulb operates at 55w..
Cheers Jay


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## bigmc (Mar 22, 2010)

None of the retro fit kits can be legally e-marked for use in this country and they must be sold as "not for road use".


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## craigeh123 (Dec 26, 2011)

bigmc said:


> Have you got free form reflectors in the zr or glass refractor? HIDs are shocking in the latter.


Tbh I really wouldn't know ! How would I tell ?


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## bigmc (Mar 22, 2010)

craigeh123 said:


> Tbh I really wouldn't know ! How would I tell ?


Is the glass clear? Or does it have the old style refracted glass?


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

xJay1337 said:


> That's correct but I'm not being biased here - I am blinding more by certain Audis.. mainly the big barges and the 07 to 09 A3s... with their factory fitted then with any of my mate's cars who had stuck some HIDs in some quality aftermarket headlights.
> 
> As for insurance, most Ebay kits are e marked otherwise they would not be able to be sold. Quality is variable but I've had my current set for 18 months and despite my automatic headlights best effort to blow the ballasts by turning them on and off under passing trees, they are still going strong.
> 
> ...


I would never use eBay as a gauge of legality of anything. Half the stuff on there is either fake or stolen with many descriptions misleading to put it mildly.

There is some really bad headlights out there. It is always going to be hard with large cars when their lights sit so high in the first place.

Even with just a little bit of pitching your beam is altered a margin and I don't think we can start singling out cars that are ok or not ok for aftermarket hid lights.

There is that many hid kits on the go the market has got out of control and would be too hard to control.

A complete ban is the only way to go and other manufacturers need to look at some of their factory fitted items too.


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## xJay1337 (Jul 20, 2012)

Let's just ban headlights all together shall we?
Since the issue here is "being blinding" and as I mentioned any headlight can blind you, bicycle, regular car halogen or HID.

so let's completely ban all headlights. Problem solved.


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

xJay1337 said:


> Let's just ban headlights all together shall we?
> Since the issue here is "being blinding" and as I mentioned any headlight can blind you, bicycle, regular car halogen or HID.
> 
> so let's completely ban all headlights. Problem solved.


You are just being ridiculous now.

When was the last time a cyclist blinded you? I have the same issue that many other post about. They either have no lights, really dull lights or LEDs that are too small to emit much light.

I've never thought of cyclists as a problem and can't remember any blinding me.

There is more issues with these HID lights than any other. I don't remember a day when a few haven't blinded me.

Sold in an uncontrolled market with the users having to play on MOT testers lack of knowledge, ability to check or rely on their "friendliness" says it all.


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## xJay1337 (Jul 20, 2012)

Many cyclists her still their torches to their handlebars pointing up to the sky blind me here. Maybe I have a condition with my eyes but most things are fine..

LEDs are brighter in terms of power used to lumen output than HIDs!

Now being honest here Kerr can you honestly say that poorly adjusted halogens don't blind you either? Because as already checked from VOSA myself I'm happy in terms of passing MOT.. as mentioned previously there is not a code to fail it..Nothing to do with lack of knowledge. 
Nothing says it all... because it's an open ending book.

I'm saying HIDs are fine in the correct application and you are saying they are not.
So it's really like chalk and cheese, differing opinions with no end in sight...

All I know is that I've never read of someone's car failing for simply having HIDs for an MOT.

And until the day where cars do fail I will be happy to run around in my car knowing I've spend the money and time getting not only a set of lights which look good but produce a very high quality beam and do not give blinding characteristics to other road users. I also encourage other people who are aware of things to do the same (that is use their HIDs responsible! )

I _really_ can't be bothered anymore lol.


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

xJay1337 said:


> Many cyclists her still their torches to their handlebars pointing up to the sky blind me here. Maybe I have a condition with my eyes but most things are fine..
> 
> LEDs are brighter in terms of power used to lumen output than HIDs!
> 
> ...


You are reading a different thread to me as quite a few others have provided good evidence why they are not to MOT standard.

Google it and you will find loads of people who have failed an MOT. There was a case of mitsubishi Evos failing with their standard lights I think from Japanese imports.

It is very much like the tinted window argument of years ago.

Loads of people had dark tints, including me,and many argued that they were fine. We all knew fine well in dark nights your visibility was affected.

They were covered by the MOT but it wasn't enforced too well at MOT time and often down to the discretion of the tester or required a "friendly" tester.

Only once the police started taking action and testing windows on the road, most of the illegal windows were ordered to be removed.

There is no doubt there is numerous cars with poorly set up headlights.

There isn't any argument that there is far too many HID lights on cars that are just plain dangerous. It seems to be the first modification for chavved up boy racer cars these days.


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## xJay1337 (Jul 20, 2012)

Kerr said:


> You are reading a different thread to me as quite a few others have provided good evidence why they are not to MOT standard.


And I have provided "good evidence" as to why they are!

For a start:

#1 - http://uk-mkivs.net/forums/p/469110/3221156.aspx#3226848
#2 - My own MOT pass certificate - http://img685.imageshack.us/img685/9305/photomkwz.jpg
#3 - http://motforum.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=public&action=display&thread=1331

And when I got my tracking done the day before (as I fitted new lower control arms) here are my headlights! - http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/5162/photoqjh.jpg
Oh and yes I have US DRLs so my indicators are light up. Again perfectly legal.



> Google it and you will find loads of people who have failed an MOT. There was a case of mitsubishi Evos failing with their standard lights I think from Japanese imports.


And that's probably because they have a bad beam pattern. Since there is not a FAILURE CODE (aka there is no reason for rejection), it can not be failed for washers or/and self levelling not being present.. There was a draft back in October/November 2011 saying that reason for rejection would be "mandatory self levelling or washers not present" however this was changed to the wording to say if they are fitted they must work, but if not fitted they are not reason for rejection.



> It is very much like the tinted window argument of years ago.
> 
> Loads of people had dark tints, including me,and many argued that they were fine. We all knew fine well in dark nights your visibility was affected.
> 
> They were covered by the MOT but it wasn't enforced too well at MOT time and often down to the discretion of the tester or required a "friendly" tester.


It's nothing like the tinted windows. Because the law is black and white on this issue.. a set percentage of light is to be allowed through. This can be tested.

And conversely the law on HIDs is similar, if producing less than 2000 lumens it does not need washers or self levelling. However as said by Vosa, they cannot test this at present so apply the lowest common denominator (so they assume that they are under 2000).



> There isn't any argument that there is far too many HID lights on cars that are just plain dangerous. It seems to be the first modification for chavved up boy racer cars these days.


You really do have no idea about "chavved up boy racer cars" do you?


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## bigmc (Mar 22, 2010)

The law is black and white for HIDs too or are you just not reading it properly? 
DIRECT QUOTE
"In the Department for Transport's (DfT) view it is not legal to sell or use after 
market HID lighting kits, for converting conventional Halogen headlamps to HID 
Xenon. If a customer wants to convert his vehicle to Xenon HID he must 
purchase completely new Xenon HID headlamps. The reason for this is that 
the existing lens and reflector are designed around a Halogen filament bulb, 
working to very precise tolerances. If one places a HID "burner" (bulb) in the 
headlamp, the beam pattern will not be correct, there will be glare in some 
places and not enough light in other places within the beam pattern."

In practice this means: 
1. The headlamp unit (outer lens, reflector, bulb) shall be type approved to 
ECE 98 and be "e-marked" to demonstrate this. That can only be done 
by the headlamp supplier - Hella, Valeo etc. - who must test the 
headlamp in an independent laboratory. 
2. Once fitted to the vehicle it must have headlamp cleaning and selflevelling (which can be for the headlamp or can be in the vehicle 
suspension - some expensive estate cars have "self-levelling 
suspension" and that is adequate). Also the dipped beam must stay on 
with the main beam. 
3. The headlamp must be maintained in good working order, kept clean, 
and aligned/adjusted correctly in the same way as any other headlamp.

Under the Road Traffic Act 1988 it is an offence to supply, fit or use vehicle 
parts which are not legal. 
In summary: it is not permitted to convert an existing halogen headlamp unit for 
use with HID bulbs. *The entire headlamp unit must be replaced with one 
designed and approved for use with HID bulbs and it must be installed in 
accordance with the rules stated above.*


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## xJay1337 (Jul 20, 2012)

I've also stated "law" stating they are fine for your MOT - and I also have had this checked by a real person who can give real replies..

The final nail in the coffin for your side of the argument is here - http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-news/consumer-news/35636/watchdog-unfair-mot-failures

I think this is the Evo that is mentioned..



> The tester told Timothy, from Banbridge, Co Down, that it had failed because the car's factory-fitted HID headlamps did not have washers and a self-levelling system - both of which are required on new cars with HID lights under type approval laws that came into effect in 2010.


So the laws came into effect in 2010 that for type approval Xenon/HID lights _had_to have self levelling and washers. And those didn't because it was before the type approval changed.



> The section on HID lamps is slightly different to the one issued by the Vehicle and Operator Services Agency (VOSA) to garages in England, Scotland and Wales. VOSA's states: _"A car with HID lights MAY also have headlight washers and self levelling which must be checked and in working order if fitted."_ The DVA's states: "A car with HID lights MUST have headlight washers and self levelling..."


So what we've all been arguing about..



> We pointed out the discrepancy to the DVA and asked if the wording would be changed so cars couldn't be failed for not meeting regulations introduced many years after they were made. But a spokeswoman said the DVA believed its regulations were right and that the same test standard would be applied by garages in the rest of Britain.


Interesting..



> A spokesman for VOSA denied that this was the case. He said:* "If a car has the washing and self-levelling system then we'll check it and it will need to be in full working order. If it's not there, we don't check it - we give the owner the benefit of the doubt.*"


Again, official from VOSA (who are responsible for MOT tests) alongside the DFT - You are able to run HIDs without self levelling or washers. The DVA here were incorrect.

In Black and White.

Further to that, if you fit HIDs into a say, 2004 or 2005 model car they are expected to meet the type approval for that vehicle* at the time.*. Type approval did not require self leveling or washers so therefore they are perfectly fine for your MOT so long as you have a good, clear, defined beam pattern.

You can argue all you like but as I have mentioned mine have passed it's MOT fine (at a garage which gave an advisory for my exhaust I might add so not "friendly") and in combination with the written reply from the guy at Vosa in conjunction with all of the other documentation from VOSA.


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## Shiny (Apr 23, 2007)

This was raised on an Accord forum i am also a member of. The problem is that DFT uphold the road laws and VOSA control the MOT tests.

The DFT deem them illegal - http://assets.dft.gov.uk/publications/dft-information-sheets/aftermarket-hid-headlamps.pdf

Here is a cut and paste of the post:



> DfT uphold road laws, it's VOSA who deal with MOTs and don't care about the law.
> 
> In fact I wrote to them earlier in the year, asking this:
> 
> ...


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## bigmc (Mar 22, 2010)

I can see it's pointless continuing to debate with you, you _think_ they're ok whereas I know they're not, the DFT and the Road Traffic Act both say they're not legal.


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## xJay1337 (Jul 20, 2012)

bigmc said:


> I can see it's pointless continuing to debate with you, you _think_ they're ok whereas I know they're not, the DFT and the Road Traffic Act both say they're not legal.


Sorry, are we talking about legality or whether they pass an MOT?
because I am talking about passing an MOT and they will pass fine so long as the beam pattern is OK.

I've never stated they were "legal" (infact I stated that being legal and passing an MOT are different things).

But it's ok. You "know".


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## bigmc (Mar 22, 2010)

Tinted front windows will pass an mot, doesn't make them ok to use...


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## Shiny (Apr 23, 2007)

I think this is the point, Roadworthy and Legality are two different things. They shouldn't be though. 

Don't forget changing your lights to HIDs is notifiable to your Insurers, that is another hurdle you should consider


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## Ric (Feb 4, 2007)

I was always under the impression they are OK in a projector type headlight and not a normal reflector type.

And the MOT is OK if the pattern is correct.

I used to have some fitted a while ago, passed 3 MOT's got stopped by police for something else and they didnt say anything and insurance weren't bothered.

This is ofcourse some 5-6000k version, not the stupid 8-12000k versions.


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## xJay1337 (Jul 20, 2012)

bigmc said:


> Tinted front windows will pass an mot, doesn't make them ok to use...


It's like drinking.
Doing so responsibly is fine.
By just thinking "ah let's just drink all this/stick some HIDs in willy-nilly" then you get some problems..

Which is why I (and most of the people I know who have got them fitted) spent a lot of money and time making sure they are good to use in terms of light output (which is why I fitted uprated bits anyway) and also looks, and also do not blind people.

Here was my beam pattern the night I fitted my lights. They are not set up correctly. But it gives an indication of the beam pattern. No kick up to the left so will not blind cars on the inside lane of motorways. Nice, flat, level beam which is not glaring to other vehicles. There is one small issue with the HID bulb I have fitted but I've since rectified that.

When I got it back from my local garage the next day, so they were set up and spaced correctly, I lowered them down further around 3/4 of a turn with my adjuster in the car on the highest setting so I could yet further lower them down if I wanted.

Where as people who don't understand cut off, beam pattern, scatter, don't care. It's those people you should be targetting your anger at, not people who do it properly and ensure it is of a standard suitable for MOT.


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## Shiny (Apr 23, 2007)

As i understand it, in summary, to pass an MOT with aftermarket HIDs they must have the correct beam pattern and, if fitted with washers/levellers, they must work.

However, to use aftermarket HIDs "legally" on the road, the headlight unit must be a suitable e approved unit, headlight washers and a self levelling device must be fitted.

As mentioned above, you could drive out of an MOT station with a perfectly legitimate MOT and then be done by the police for having illegal HIDs fitted, as VOSA only set the MOT rules, not the road laws.


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## xJay1337 (Jul 20, 2012)

Shiny said:


> As i understand it, in summary, to pass an MOT with aftermarket HIDs they must have the correct beam pattern and, if fitted with washers/levellers, they must work.
> 
> However, to use aftermarket HIDs "legally" on the road, the headlight unit must be a suitable e approved unit, headlight washers and a self levelling device must be fitted.
> 
> As mentioned above, you could drive out of an MOT station with a perfectly legitimate MOT and then be done by the police for having illegal HIDs fitted, as VOSA only set the MOT rules, not the road laws.


Correct. :thumb::thumb:
However if your beam pattern is correct the likelyhood of being done for it is close to 0. Round here a guy in a starlet got done but they were like driving around with your full beams on.. terribly blinding.


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## Shiny (Apr 23, 2007)

Can't beat dodgy levellers either! Watch what happens when i bounce on the back! lol! Scary on country roads!

http://s1021.beta.photobucket.com/user/Shiny69uk/media/ATR/Headlights.mp4.html

All fixed now though and all correctly lined up!


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## xJay1337 (Jul 20, 2012)

So it goes all the way down??! What car is that on lol.


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## Shiny (Apr 23, 2007)

My Accord. Common problem with them, doesn't make sense either as there is a single signal from the leveller so both should dip at the same time if it was the sensor.

After a year of messing around (when i could be bothered) discovered it can be cured by disconnecting both the levelling ecu and the motor at the back of the headlights and then connecting it all back up again!


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## SteveyG (Apr 1, 2007)

xJay1337 said:


> LEDs are brighter in terms of power used to lumen output than HIDs!


Not at the kind of power levels we're talking about here.


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## craigeh123 (Dec 26, 2011)

bigmc said:


> Is the glass clear? Or does it have the old style refracted glass?


Ah now I see where your coming from they are free form ie clear glass


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## andy monty (Dec 29, 2007)

Kerr said:


> You are just being ridiculous now.
> 
> When was the last time a cyclist blinded you?





xJay1337 said:


> Many cyclists her still their torches to their handlebars pointing up to the sky blind me here. Maybe I have a condition with my eyes but most things are fine..
> 
> LEDs are brighter in terms of power used to lumen output than HIDs!


But push bikes don't need an MOT or insurance...

Can you find me 10 100% road legal BS 6102/3 approved light sets...( i use the term road legal as in compliance with the 2005 amended RVLR) there are 100s of different bike light designs on the market.. and even some marked with the BS 6102/3 are not strictly legal......

There is also only one none bs approved light set known to exist on the uk market that meets the 2005 amendments....

Once you hang a set of "legal" lights on your bike you are free to use what you want as an additional light providing its colour is correct............

As there is no Light beam pattern test for a supplementary bike light (and a rather basic one for the bs test) who decides if its causing dazzle??

Its not like the police can send you to a MOT test site for a beam test and there is no way you can make them self levelling due to the suspension on a modern mountain bike ......

Lamp washing facility after a muddy ride is taken care of by the finger wipe system... (Then pray its not a dogs digested stomach contents over the rear light..... 

Anyway i can get my own back to those scoundrals with naughty HID kits in their car but i am reasonable and angle it down a bit 










900 lumin from a lamp this big










 

(nah in all honesty i use them and treat them as a high beam as you would in the car)


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## gregb (Feb 1, 2009)

Getting them fitted Thursday :thumb:


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