# New manufacturers every week?



## Jdudley90 (Mar 13, 2011)

Is it me or has anyone else noticed that there seems to be more and more manufacturers and traders popping up every week?
Is this forever happening where people set up then soon fall by the wayside? How many can actually say the manufacture there own products or are they rebranding and trading them?


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## Trip tdi (Sep 3, 2008)

There is plenty coming on the market, some are rebranded products, some are imported having different labels and packaging and a few are made in house and under there own name through research and development.


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## adjones (Apr 24, 2013)

I think the 'manufacturer' tag just needs changed. If we called them 'brands' and quit with the silly lying about manufacturing, wed have a whole lot more detailing chat and a whole lot less debating about dishonesty.


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## JakeWhite (Oct 14, 2011)

It does seem manufacturers are popping up left right and centre at the moment. I have seen a few products which look suspiciously close (or 99.9999% identical in some cases) to another brands product. This is of course just what I think though.....


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## PootleFlump (Jan 1, 2006)

Maybe some brand dispersion, same company different brands, bigger slice of the pie. None will be getting my money as I don't buy car cleaning products anymore, got more than enough and no time to use them.


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## Audriulis (Dec 17, 2009)

adjones said:


> I think the 'manufacturer' tag just needs changed. If we called them 'brands' and quit with the silly lying about manufacturing, wed have a whole lot more detailing chat and a whole lot less debating about dishonesty.


100% agree


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## Rayner (Aug 16, 2012)

PootleFlump said:


> Maybe some brand dispersion, same company different brands, bigger slice of the pie. None will be getting my money as I don't buy car cleaning products anymore, got more than enough and no time to use them.


Design some labels and sell them as a manufacturer then if you've got too many :thumb:


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## Jdudley90 (Mar 13, 2011)

Glad it's not just me. Does it not worry anyone else where they are all made and if they have all the certs required and where these can be found to support there products?


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## Trip tdi (Sep 3, 2008)

There is alot of manufacturers get there products from another manufacturer, can not comment but some are brought from wax manufacturers and have a different colour and scent, but when you compare the performance of the product is exactly the same to the original version, the original version can be brought alot cheaper but at the end the day it's the same product with different labeling, colour and scent.


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## Franzpan (Mar 2, 2009)

Jdudley90 said:


> Glad it's not just me. Does it not worry anyone else where they are all made and if they have all the certs required and where these can be found to support there products?


Not really. Have no interest in new manufacturers anymore so have no need to try them. Pretty much all the products I use are Autosmart now, Ive yet to find a brand which comes close to beating their products across the board. None of this marketing bull with them either. I want reliable products which do what they say and at a reasonable price. I don't want "curiously candy ph neutral wrapped in coton wool snowfoam" or "insane gloss enhancing flake popping incredible depth inducing bubblegum smelling glaze" just give me a traffic film remover and a polish that will do their job.

Will these new manufacturers be around in ten years? What about twenty?


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## Jdudley90 (Mar 13, 2011)

Franzpan said:


> Not really. Have no interest in new manufacturers anymore so have no need to try them. Pretty much all the products I use are Autosmart now, Ive yet to find a brand which comes close to beating their products across the board. None of this marketing bull with them either. I want reliable products which do what they say and at a reasonable price. I don't want "curiously candy ph neutral wrapped in coton wool snowfoam" or "insane gloss enhancing flake popping incredible depth inducing bubblegum smelling glaze" just give me a traffic film remover and a polish that will do their job.


I'm with you on this one. I think it takes newcomers a while to realise this but when you do you'll save a lot of cash!


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## The_Bouncer (Nov 24, 2010)

:driver::car:.


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## dooka (Aug 1, 2006)

And also very very decent waxes, will give some of the big names a resl run for their money and beat them ..


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## adjones (Apr 24, 2013)

The_Bouncer said:


> :driver::car:.


How do you feel about DW having a whole section devoted to home brewing? Seems to me that the world is jumping on the idea of making a wax then trying to see about selling it.


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## -Kev- (Oct 30, 2007)

the home brew section isn't there for people to make and sell waxes..


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## adjones (Apr 24, 2013)

-Kev- said:


> the home brew section isn't there for people to make and sell waxes..


I know that isn't what it is there for but with waxes made for external review, secret recipes and procedures and a history of home brewers turning into brands which supply wax, well it all sets up nicely for someone wanting to do just this. Lets wait and see, give it a year and we'll see if any of the homebrew threads turn into retail products.


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## nick_mcuk (Jan 4, 2008)

Franzpan said:


> Not really. Have no interest in new manufacturers anymore so have no need to try them. Pretty much all the products I use are Autosmart now, Ive yet to find a brand which comes close to beating their products across the board. None of this marketing bull with them either. I want reliable products which do what they say and at a reasonable price. I don't want "curiously candy ph neutral wrapped in coton wool snowfoam" or "insane gloss enhancing flake popping incredible depth inducing bubblegum smelling glaze" just give me a traffic film remover and a polish that will do their job.
> 
> Will these new manufacturers be around in ten years? What about twenty?


Pretty much the same for me...I use mainly AutoGlym trade products and for LSP its mainly Zaino or properly recognised long standing products like Colly or one that's quite new to the scene but I know is hand made by Jay is Bouncers...Why? Because they do what they say on the tin no fluffy names or pretty smells....just good honest products that do the job.

I cant be doing with all these iffy re-branded Far Eastern ceramic products that no-one actually knows what's in them or the the long term effects from exposure to our health...then you have the ones that take existing trade chemicals put a new fancy label on them in a swanky bottle and market them like they actually make them in house....

Its back to the old school "snake oil" sales....they wont last.

I for one wont support them buy buying their products.


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## The_Bouncer (Nov 24, 2010)

adjones said:


> How do you feel about DW having a whole section devoted to home brewing? Seems to me that the world is jumping on the idea of making a wax then trying to see about selling it.


I think the homebrew section is a good idea - For those that wish to try it, it can be an exciting adventure.

But more so what it does well is dispel the twaddle that is rife by certain manufacturers in wax production.

A decent wax does not need to feature insect spun, tripple layered, only in season for 2 weeks a year strange name ingredients that are so strange only the manufacturer has ever heard of them.

With regards to making and selling waxes, it is more than that, I can tell you the the costs involved to launch a wax are very high.

The breakdown would consist of the product R&D, the graphical elements, the correct pots, all of the ingredients, the msds creation etc - The earliest I could ever have a product launched would be 6 months - and don't forget all of this needs to be paid for in advance and presented or you will have no product to sell.

All the customer see's is a pot of wax, - not necessarily all that has gone into it to make it happen.

Rambling a bit now - but it's good to see transparency in this business.

Overall - A lot will try to make a wax, and a few will succeed in making a good product. It's really then up to that person what happens next.

The world is full of innovation as is this business, seeing different people bringing new ideas to the table can only stimulate and encourage better products.

Let's not forget that one of the biggest companies, Turtlewax, was born in the early part of last century by a talented individual mixing up products in his bath at home !!

:thumb: I say good luck to those who try it.


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## DrDax (Apr 16, 2009)

adjones said:


> I think the 'manufacturer' tag just needs changed. If we called them 'brands' and quit with the silly lying about manufacturing, wed have a whole lot more detailing chat and a whole lot less debating about dishonesty.


There are only a few manufacturers around, what we have are inventors.

Someone may come up with a new formulation but will need a manufacturer to bring it to market.

Don't forget branding & bottling facilities. Marketing as well.

Many products are white labelled (rebranded) which can be difficult to tell, changes to smell, texture, viscosity etc.

Some products are the same but sold in different bottles for different purposes.

Just found this out as I'm still in negotiations with a worldwide manufacturer to bring 2 new products to market (trying to get it into Williams Renault). The hoops I'm having to jump through are ridiculous. Very small margins too.

Any new product must have MSD Sheet ie what's in it, is it dangerous etc. Where the chemicals are sourced, are they eco?... Etc blah blah... 
Anyone not having testing done aren't serious.

Still have weeks of comparison testing with market leaders, if it goes well I should have a good order coming my way . 
Trouble is, targeting the big boys has its problems, they order in batches of 10,000 units lol. Approx 5000l 
Logistics then become an issue.

Not something one can do in a garage. One has to outsource production... More costs.

All this to make a few quid lol.


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## -Raven- (Aug 26, 2010)

Just ask them straight up. I do all the time. Nothing wrong with asking the question mate. :thumb:


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## Ronnie (Nov 15, 2006)

Feel free to call me directly on 07784258006 to discuss our products..

To put my 2pence worth on this.. We are a very small manufacturing company. We design develop and manufacture all our own products, this is evident as you can see the continual evolvement of the product also we have decided to do things differently throwing away the rule book so to say. What bothers us is we spend literally tens of thousands of pounds developing and testing we supply correct and accurate MSDS and associated data and most other companies seam to totally disregard these vital bits of documentation. It is amusing when we see several products being tested and we know they are the same and the tester differentiates between them. This proves the power of branding and subliminal advertising nothing else. 

What I have an issue is that most companies you see are non compliant with chemical regulations I can list several quite glaring examples but refuse to get drawn into this. I personally feel this is where some sort of actual regulation is needed as this becomes a safety issue. For example a child accidently drinks a product you go to the hospital if you call us I can discuss chemicals and forward a complete MSDS to the hospital for analysis. I called one company recently and the owner did not know what an MSDS was!!!!

Now to set things straight we are all on for people setting up business there is plenty to go round all of us but I do think that they should at least be compliant, distributors and resellers think this is not their problem but if they are the main agent in the UK then yes it is the manufacturer has no comeback but the reseller is responsible as they supplied it not many know this. 

It is up to the consumer to say where they want to so to purchase products and yes many are falling to the wayside as it is an expensive and cut throat market place. What we find is most customers really don't care what the product is as long as it's cheap which is not our ethos so we let other companies get on with it. 

If you want to see a manufacturer watch a new product we have not launched one product yet where we have known every little thing about it that is impossible you learn how it works in different environments how different people apply it and you then can refine and develop the application instructions from feedback this is what you get with home grown products but a company that all of a sudden springs up with a full range of products no MSDS and thy know every little application trick usually means that they have bought it and gleaned information from the manufacturer. 

if in doubt call them chat to them, we show our products being developed before launch for example our AIO and Perfection Polish has been tested through our detailing for the last year and is shown in our write ups feel free to call us and we can chat to you how we do things we will be more than happy to do this as will any other manufacturers out there. Just because people rebrand does not mean the product is bad what it does give you the buyer is the opportunity to get the best possible price for the product you want.

As regard to home brewing we are very against this one such example I highlighted to the Moderators was one member was mixing fallout removers the products on their own were fine but the mix he was saying was best produced a by product which was cyanide gas!!!! Its fine blending waxes but DO NOT BLEND CHEMICALS!! At least for example mixing a citrus pre cleaner and snowfoam can cause the product to cancel each other out and become useless or it can create toxic gasses! 

The main problem is hype people hype and blow up a product creating a demand and this is where the problem comes generally rebranded products are much cheaper to buy for a clear example and being totally honest, I can buy a bulk load of fallout remover from Car Chem for less than I can make my own as a single example of large quantity manufacture, simply as they are making theirs in a larger quantity therefore the rebrander reseller can make a larger profit or sell for cheaper. The best thing as I have said before do research not everyone can just set up I know it has cost us the price of a nice house to set up Orchard Autocare so look at who is selling the product and as I said before if you want information call the company ask questions if they are cagey then you will know the score. I hope this can shed a little light on the thoughts of one of only a hand full of actual manufacturing companies based in the UK.


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## organisys (Jan 3, 2012)

Lager is Lager, but there are quite a few brands on the market arn't there?

Mind you that is not such an expanding market, so fewer 'new' brands.


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## Ronnie (Nov 15, 2006)

its horses for courses we look at it as Detailing is the big thing in the car scene at the moment it will quieten down and you will se a lot of companies close of move onto new things. I know our motorsport and OEM manufacturer links we have been working on is where we see a large portion of our business going to. The ones who hoodwink will be found out the internet is a very small place.


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## DJ X-Ray (Sep 2, 2012)

That's why i don't get caught up in the hype and just stick to trusted brands like Autoglym, Carchem, Bilthamber etc, might not be to everyone's taste due to plain and direct to the point packaging but that's what i'd prefer, not all these poncey smells and fancy labels. I'm all for innovative products but half of these 'flavour of the month' products are up on the sales threads after a few weeks.. From where i'm sitting sometimes this detailing game looks like a bit of a salesman's paradise.


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## Serious Performance (Oct 26, 2005)

I'll also throw my tuppence worth in here as I can see both sides but I do feel the whole rebranding thing is becoming a bit of a witch hunt on here of late and in some cases I don't feel it's justified. 

Of the ten years we've been trading we've been selling our own branded products for around 6-7. We AREN'T a manufacturer when it comes to our bottled products but have been dealing with factories for many years and in this time ended up with some very decent products and a fair bit of knowledge. 

As some may know or some may not when dealing with factories you can either get them to pick a range for you, bottle it, label it and job done so all you have to do is price and sell it.... Or, you can go into a bit more detail and generally pick off a white label menu, then depending on cost or MOQ you can tweak a product to some extent wether that be colour change, fragrance or even how you want a product to perform and thats before you get to the bottling and labelling side of things. I've always gone down the latter route but that again is only a small portion of picking a product for me anyway. When choosing something for my SP range I've had as many as 20-30 variants from several different suppliers/factories to try at any one time and all of these have to be real world tested to see how they perform (ease of use, durability, looks etc), that takes time and in many cases money. Then theres getting other people to test a product, or a variety of products out and get their real world feedback, again this takes time and even then it may not go 100% to plan … Anyone remember the first variant of our Show Detailer with the 'bits'? Nothing wrong with the product, it was very good but I'd insisted on a higher polymer content against what the factory advised and that over time led to the polymer bunching up in the bottle and creating the 'bits'… ooops! I learn't from that. The factories are the chemical experts, not me!

Finally when all this has been done, bottles chosen, MSDS's obtained, labels done etc etc then a product may appear in my line up and wether people want to buy that product or not I'm happy in the knowledge of just how much work, time and research has gone into trying to get something that I feel I want to sell under my companies name... And this is where I get frustrated that people on here feel anyone who's rebranding (and clearly it seems in some peoples minds this is only happens within the car care world), is worthy of being outted for the fakes they are when this really isn't the case.... Though at the same time I do sympathise that with all the new companies popping up with their own brands just how much of their time has been spent trying things, getting other people to try things, feeding back to the factory etc etc to truly obtain a range of products that they can class as 'theirs', or whether or not they've almost had a range picked for them, had it bottled and started selling it. 

Our products still do come from a number of factories and I'm happy to tell people how we go about picking something to go into the range and how we do things and not to mention get peoples thoughts back. As to where we source things from, thats my business and my business only and will remain that way. 

Hope this helps a little as to my thoughts as a ...... Rebrander!….. Still a million little things in my mind I could put here as to what I believe difference is between being a manufacturer and having a brand. Also how after all these years you can tell almost instantly where a 'branded' companies products are from if they aren't custom blending (and that still doesn't make you a manufacturer) because I've tested or tried something identical but thats not fair to start going into……. so I'll stop my waffling now 

Cheers.
Alex .


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## Kimo (Jun 7, 2013)

The thing I don't like is that people slate af for rebranding all the time asif they are the only people to have ever done it. They aren't just decanting products though, they are making them better first and were fairly open about this

People need to open their eyes and see just how many people are rebranding though rather than slating the same people over and over again, there's a lot more out there than people think ...

As for the people posting about manufacturing from scratch, big well done tbh for succeeding


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## Lowiepete (Mar 29, 2009)

Oh dear, another time-wasting debate that's drawing some honest and well 
respected names to post defensively. That is a real shame!

Personally, I could not give two hoots about who actually did the R&D to 
make a product. It either works, or not. However, before people continue with
their keyboard diatribes, there are as ever two sides of the story.

Take a moment people, and just look at this year's list of prizes in the 2013
Xmas Draw. These are _*donations*_ made by traders, whether manufacturers
or resellers. How do we, or should we, repay that?

If you want to know the answer, just have a look at last year's prize winners,
and then do a follow up of their posts. You'll probably be shocked at how few,
beyond saying two words of thanks, actually gave _any_ feedback on the
contents of their prize. How mean is that?

All of this should be a two-way street. Pointless carping about who made 
what that comes in a bottle or tub, should be balanced by appreciating that
we have access to these products in the first place!

I've been "detailing" cars for over 50 years, as an enthusiastic amateur, and
I'm blown away by the honesty and passion that exists here. It's driven by
people like Alex at Serious Performance and many others. I'll challenge you
to find a negative word written about any SP product on here.

Enjoy the wide selection of products that are available, but also be much
kinder to those who strive to bring them to us. We'd be lost without them...

With Season's Greetings,
Steve


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## Big Buffer (Jan 1, 2011)

My turn now.
It happens and people wont declare it and others are genuinely making new.

All I can say is you are the people to decide to buy or not and opinions will always contrast.

Done


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

Lowiepete said:


> Oh dear, another time-wasting debate that's drawing some honest and well
> respected names to post defensively. That is a real shame!
> 
> Personally, I could not give two hoots about who actually did the R&D to
> ...


I don't have the biggest concern with products coming under different labels, what I do feel is a little wrong is when they relabel a product and sell it for a huge mark up on the real value of the product.


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

Jdudley90 said:


> Is it me or has anyone else noticed that there seems to be more and more manufacturers and traders popping up every week?
> Is this forever happening where people set up then soon fall by the wayside? How many can actually say the manufacture there own products or are they rebranding and trading them?


I had noticed quite a few companies specialising in more expensive waxes and wondered if there was any real demand for them.

The market seemed well catered for before and with sealants becoming increasingly popular, this made me feel they might struggle even more.

One has already made themselves look like the DFS of the wax world to me.

There seems to be constant reasons for discounted prices, which to me, completely devalues the product to begin with.

I'll never be able to look at the product as being worth the original price.


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## Rayner (Aug 16, 2012)

Personally don't see what all the fuss was/is about tbh, I've got products from about 20 different brands, all work, I was happy to pay that particular price where it comes from isn't a problem for me. I'm using an HTC one to post this, I wonder how much of it is made by HTC? The leather chair I'm sat on, I bet the company who sold it didn't breed the cow... 

The list goes on and on and on it happens in EVERY industry, I bet half my car wasn't made by Subaru computer probably wasn't made by Dell and you can bet your last penny MacDonald's didn't breed that cow their sticking in your burger


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## DMH-01 (Mar 29, 2011)

Kerr said:


> I don't have the biggest concern with products coming under different labels, what I do feel is a little wrong is when they relabel a product and sell it for a huge mark up on the real value of the product.


That's how the majority of businesses work.

No one is forced to buy a product.


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## Darlofan (Nov 24, 2010)

I work in the food industry. If you're worried about rebranding in detailing don't go looking in your fridge, freezers and food cupboards. I was surprised how few people realise it goes on, brought to light during the horsemeat scandle where friends were shocked at factories making meals for different supermarkets and even more shocked when I informed them of same products different packaging at the end of the production line.

Have to say I find it harder spotting same detailing products re branded. Maybe a thread should be started by those in the know!
Did laugh last year when 1company posted about fallout/tar remover in one being launched after years of development. Within days there were other companies also launching fallout/tar remover!


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## Jdudley90 (Mar 13, 2011)

What a resurrection this thread has had. The making money doesn't bother me we all have to do it and if people are willing to pay the price happy days. It's just sad if the detailing world has got to the point where people are quite content starting up and selling someone else's product at a mark up. I prefer to see innovators like Ronnie willing to roll their sleeves up and create actual new products for us to play with. I understand this takes lots of time and money but huge respect for that.


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

DMH-01 said:


> That's how the majority of businesses work.
> 
> No one is forced to buy a product.


I agree to a certain extent, but many companies get other companies to make products, or more often, certain parts to make a product, on their behalf to keep costs down.

I wouldn't say it was the majority of companies simply rename another manufacturer's product with just a packaging change and add cost to an item. Yes, you do get some, certainly not the majority.

No one if forced to buy a product, that is true. However there shouldn't be such a fear and threads locked when someone points out that product A is the same as product B whilst being 50% cheaper.

So although they are not being forced to buy a product, they are being shielded from the truth.


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## Rayner (Aug 16, 2012)

Kerr I think the reason for the locking is there's rarely any proof from these threads and they just end up in arguments, DW don't like arguing


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## Derekh929 (Aug 28, 2011)

rayner said:


> Kerr I think the reason for the locking is there's rarely any proof from these threads and they just end up in arguments, DW don't like arguing


Proof :lol: just order the same type of product from every company on here and do a test and compare costs:thumb: bet the thread won't last very long you would be shocked at mark up tbo, but hey jewellers make 1000% + mark ups but they don't claim to be product manafturers  marketing on here is brilliant and certainly catches out new members for sure including me:thumb:


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## Rayner (Aug 16, 2012)

Derekh929 said:


> Proof :lol: just order the same type of product from every company on here and do a test and compare costs:thumb: bet the thread won't last very long you would be shocked at mark up tbo, but hey jewellers make 1000% + mark ups but they don't claim to be product manafturers  marketing on here is brilliant and certainly catches out new members for sure including me:thumb:


Exactly, I said proof... That's not proof

If you read my last post I said I'm not bothered. Many of us are being ripped off every day by lots of things we buy, car cleaning products is just one of them. It's a simple fact of life that a manufacturing company can't always make enough money out of selling to the public themselves. They need companies that re brand, re sell or invent formulas for them to make.

In some companies like Autoglym their almost 2 different companies, one that makes (or buys) a range of products, dilutes those same products and sells them as a retail version. That's a massive mark up but they've just cut out the middle man.


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## adjones (Apr 24, 2013)

As the other hype thread. This is business. Admitedly some brands are proven liars (we have those saying everything is developed and manufactured in house and later, after presure, have to reeked the claims) but the ripping off is community driven. The rip off is hype and fanboyism. The rip off is people shouting about products which are average at best. The rip off is big name detailers taking big pay offs to advertise products (products which they sometimes don't even use).


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## Ronnie (Nov 15, 2006)

in fairness, why is anyone bothered, its not like a gun is held to your head to buy the products, I have yet to hear that someone's family have been kidnapped and will be shot unless you buy a certain brand, we all can get free NHS glasses but who do you know who actually wear them, we can all get jeans from Dunnes for £3 but people still wear levi or designer jeans, These companies have staff, buildings rent, rates, mortguages and families to pay for why are we as a nation SO against people making money they have taken the risk God knows the risk people in business take. On average I know I work 70+ hours a week with family like suffering to make a business grow. I know if this does not work I will loose my house so I will not apologies to anyone if its a success business is about profit simple if you don't like it buy else where I know James gets a lot of flack I have met him and he is a top bloke and someone who I admire for what he has done simply as I am struggling to do the same. In stead of *****ing and moaning about him or others for making a concerned effort and also providing employment to other people we should support them if you don't like if lt or cant stand it turn over.. I'm sorry but this country is all about dogging the ones who make the effort if he can squeeze more out of you then good on him. DW is very small when you look at the number of actual active users compared to the number of signed up members the number of small companies starting up is much larger, its like weekend detailers everyone says do they not bug you and I say no, I am glad they have gotten off their ass to actually proactively do something for themselves i'm all on for enterprise its what will make this country great... Its like moaning about someone driving an expensive car or living in a big house do they need it no do they want it yes if you don't like it look away or do something that will enable you to do the same! rant of the year over....


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

Ronnie said:


> in fairness, why is anyone bothered, its not like a gun is held to your head to buy the products, I have yet to hear that someone's family have been kidnapped and will be shot unless you buy a certain brand, we all can get free NHS glasses but who do you know who actually wear them, we can all get jeans from Dunnes for £3 but people still wear levi or designer jeans, These companies have staff, buildings rent, rates, mortguages and families to pay for why are we as a nation SO against people making money they have taken the risk God knows the risk people in business take. On average I know I work 70+ hours a week with family like suffering to make a business grow. I know if this does not work I will loose my house so I will not apologies to anyone if its a success business is about profit simple if you don't like it buy else where I know James gets a lot of flack I have met him and he is a top bloke and someone who I admire for what he has done simply as I am struggling to do the same. In stead of *****ing and moaning about him or others for making a concerned effort and also providing employment to other people we should support them if you don't like if lt or cant stand it turn over.. I'm sorry but this country is all about dogging the ones who make the effort if he can squeeze more out of you then good on him. DW is very small when you look at the number of actual active users compared to the number of signed up members the number of small companies starting up is much larger, its like weekend detailers everyone says do they not bug you and I say no, I am glad they have gotten off their ass to actually proactively do something for themselves i'm all on for enterprise its what will make this country great... Its like moaning about someone driving an expensive car or living in a big house do they need it no do they want it yes if you don't like it look away or do something that will enable you to do the same! rant of the year over....


The difference is people have a choice with the information in front of them. There is a huge difference in quality between Levis and cheap jeans.

People have the knowledge that if you want Levis you have to pay the premium that you have to weigh up if it's worth it to you.

You are paying a fair amount for the label, but people want to be wearing those labels.

You haven't compared like for like here.

With detailing products the end result is you want is a clean car. It really shouldn't matter about the bottle, just the end result.

You don't have the opportunity to see or test most of the products side by side. Not many people will get the chance to see that product A is better/same as B. You are putting trust in the seller.

Trust would be lost if they were aware there was equal quality products avaliable that are the same, for less.

With NHS glasses or Levis jeans, you know what you're buying and you know the premium for the brand. Nobody is kidding each other on.

You should pay more for quality, but not for just a name change.


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## nick_mcuk (Jan 4, 2008)

Good analogy there as I bought 2 pairs of Tescos jeans and they lasted for years. Not like I bought them to go out in oh no they were for gardening car washing and dirty duties. 

How much did these jeans cost......£4 each!

They out lasted designer brands that were ten or twenty times more expensive. 

Price has little to do with quality. Maybe a perceived quality but that's from marketing normally.


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## stangalang (Nov 27, 2009)

Don't worry about new brands, just watch those that come and make noise, and disappear as quick. Some are out to make quick money, others are genuinely trying to offer something different long term


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## Gleammachine (Sep 8, 2007)

This thread is much like "new car detailers every week", cleaned and waxed a few cars for friends and family, now they are rebranded "professional detailers".

Unfortunately this forum is a big contributor, to both detailer and manufacturer, so easy to gather information now, to what it was 10+ years ago.


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## Alex L (Oct 25, 2005)

Gleammachine said:


> This thread is much like "new car detailers every week", cleaned and waxed a few cars for friends and family, now they are rebranded "professional detailers".
> 
> Unfortunately this forum is a big contributor, to both detailer and manufacturer, so easy to gather information now, to what it was 10+ years ago.


And that's how most people in the Studio section started 

Doesn't mean they're any less capable than some who post in there :thumb:


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## Rayner (Aug 16, 2012)

Gleammachine said:


> This thread is much like "new car detailers every week", cleaned and waxed a few cars for friends and family, now they are rebranded "professional detailers".
> 
> Unfortunately this forum is a big contributor, to both detailer and manufacturer, so easy to gather information now, to what it was 10+ years ago.


Is that not the same in any industry though?

I can't remember the last time someone said "Yeah, I did my 3 year apprenticeship then started doing paid jobs shortly after that"

Day 1 = First paid job on customer's house, car, boat etc.

It's how it all works, rightly or wrongly, the only difference is that the people here have had some experience.....


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

Gleammachine said:


> This thread is much like "new car detailers every week", cleaned and waxed a few cars for friends and family, now they are rebranded "professional detailers".
> 
> Unfortunately this forum is a big contributor, to both detailer and manufacturer, so easy to gather information now, to what it was 10+ years ago.


They are being judged on their own work though, not someone else's. They aren't hiding behind anyone.

It would be like a guy was claiming to be a great detailer, charging the customer £500, then bringing the car to you and paying you £250.

He gets the lions share of the profit, yet you've done the hard work and he takes the credit for the work too.


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## DJ X-Ray (Sep 2, 2012)

There's room for everyone imo. Whether your pro, amateur or whatever :thumb:


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## DMH-01 (Mar 29, 2011)

Kerr said:


> The difference is people have a choice with the information in front of them. *There is a huge difference in quality between Levis and cheap jeans. *
> 
> You should pay more for quality, *but not for just a name change.*


Even though most of the designer labels are produced in the same factories as the cheaper items


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

DMH-01 said:


> Even though most of the designer labels are produced in the same factories as the cheaper items


Maybe some are, but many aren't.

Even still they will be made to a different design and quality.

You aren't going to find an Armani jumper in Asda with a George label. Or as I should have said it, a George Jumper in the Armani shop at Armani prices.

People do understand they are paying for a label and the image that label creates.


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## DMH-01 (Mar 29, 2011)

Kerr said:


> Are they? Which ones?
> 
> Maybe some are, but many aren't.
> 
> ...


Actually many are.

You only have to check the labels inside your clothes.

For instance, Fakir (Narayanganj factory) supplied H&M for t-shirts along with the likes of G-Star Raw etc.

And many years a ago a close relative of mine was a dress maker.

In the same building she would make the dresses for top designer labels and she would have employees making dresses which were not branded or cheaper brands.


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## DJ X-Ray (Sep 2, 2012)

True enough^.As per kerr's post. i'm a fashion victim, and designer garm's are made a lot better than Primark etc. I wear an old pair of G Star's at work and they've lasted a good 4 years and usually the crotch goes on certain cheaper brands. Designer are made better and use noticeably better materials


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## DJ X-Ray (Sep 2, 2012)

DMH-01 said:


> Actually many are.
> 
> You only have to check the labels inside your clothes.
> 
> ...


Look at Stone Island gear though DMH, CP Company etc for instance, they're made to a much better standard than your average clobber


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## DMH-01 (Mar 29, 2011)

DJ X-Ray said:


> Look at Stone Island gear though DMH, CP Company etc for instance, they're made to a much better standard than your average clobber


I'm not talking about quality, I was merely stating that the majority of designer labels are made in a factory that will also produce items for cheap brands.

The higher skilled workers will work on the designer labels while the less skilled work on the cheaper labels.

I don't think my Stone Island jeans are hugely better quality than say a pair of my Lacoste jeans (price doesn't always mean better quality).


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

DMH-01 said:


> Actually many are.
> 
> You only have to check the labels inside your clothes.
> 
> ...


You do get examples of it, I don't doubt that.

However, as you point out, there is identifying labels to highlight who made them. If it does matter that much to you, you can find out.

Levis did used to make their own jeans, but having just Googled it, they actually openly admit they are subcontracted. It happens in lots of industries where the big boys subcontract work out to keep costs down and profits up.

The supermarkets was another example. You do get brand name foods that come in supermarket own brand names. This comes about as the supermarket pushes for this deal in agreement to stock the companies own product at higher profit for the manufacturing company.

The result is there is cheaper products for the customer if they do find them. There is no or little profit for the manufacturer making them though.

What I've seen with detailing products is the opposite.

Everybody knows when buying most clothes you are paying for the designer brand label.

But you get the chance to go into the shop, feel, wear and compare before deciding if the purchase is merited.

To me there is certainly a big difference between brands. I only buy middle of the road clothes as the cheap ones aren't good enough, and I'm no longer prepared to spend £100+ on a pair of jeans. So I've found a few brands that offer good quality at a middle of the road price. With jeans, they are also the very few that fit properly as they are a different shape.

With detailing goods you are ordering blind. I'd guess the vast majority is mail order and you don't have the chance to try or compare prior to purchase.

There is no identifying labels to say this product was made by someone else.

It is freedom of choice, but I understand why people do feel upset at spending a reasonable sum of money on a product, only to find there is something identical out there for less.

It undermines my confidence to pay good money for a product.


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## tarbyonline (May 23, 2009)

Rebranding takes place in every industry as does sub contracting. How much of that car you drive do you think was actually made by the "manufacturer"? If you take a look you will see labels from a host of manufacturers on different parts. Likewise cosmetics, cleaning products, food, electronics, are all subcontracted. If I wanted to I could go to Creighton's tomorrow and order a batch of moisturiser to a certain specification (much in the same way serious performance do with detailing products), get them to stick a fancy label on it and pay a marketing company to hype how it has had x amount of years research put into it - this wouldn't be lying but Creighton's did the research not me (I just want to state I do not wish to imply this is an easy process but am simplifying things for the sake of brevity - see serious performances post), likewise they would also offer me an off the shelf option which would be cheaper than the custom product - car chem do a lot of this contract work as well in the car care industry. The same goes for food. You would be surprised who actually makes the food you eat, and the big brands DO supply the supermarkets own label product in many cases (when they manufacture in house rather than subcontract), and sometimes to an identical specification as this is cheaper than creating and producing a new product due to economies of scale. The only supermarket I can think of which has the facilities to produce a significant proportion of their own brand in house is Morrison's and even then tinned goods and the like are supplied by other manufacturers. It really is a case of on Monday they make brand A beans, Tuesday Brand B, Wednesday Tesco, Thursday M&S, etc making changes to the recipe where appropriate.

Bottom line is this process of branding goes on everywhere. If people don't care about it in food or cars (interestingly a Ford Fiesta is more German than a VW Polo, being actually built there yet people believe they buy German when they buy VW) then why does it bother people so much with what are essentially car cleaning products! As for mixing chemicals Ronnie has outlined the reasons this is a bad idea. Given he has more understanding than most of what goes into these products and the potential for reaction I would be inclined to take his advice. Yes manufacturers create new products by blending chemicals but this is done in controlled conditions by people who understand what those chemicals actually are. Personally if something in heavily diluted form is capable of removing hardened bird mess just by sitting on it (citrus preclean) I'm not going to mess around with it!


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## DJ X-Ray (Sep 2, 2012)




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## MEH4N (Mar 15, 2012)

who knew tesco value beans are made by heinz? Its all branding everywhere.

As said it happens in every industry. Depends if you fall for all the marketing and fancy packaging.


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## Jesse74 (Jul 19, 2008)

DJ X-Ray said:


>


   Well I can say with 1,000% confidence that all of my products are designed, developed, tested, and manufactured by us at Wolf's .


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## suspal (Dec 29, 2011)

MEH4N said:


> who knew tesco value beans are made by heinz? Its all branding everywhere.
> 
> As said it happens in every industry. Depends if you fall for all the marketing and fancy packaging.


Hey Rav I best keep my gob shut or be called a troll again.


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## Rainbow (Oct 30, 2013)

This is normal for the nowadays capitalsm. 

All of us see new fancy labels and aggressive marketing strategies popping out and dying every day. But in the other hand we have manufacturers and labels that have survived everything and are on the market from the very first day of car detailing at all like Sonax, meguiars and others. It is matter of personal decision who you are going to choose to trust.

Just keep in mind that the "real" best and quality brands and goods (not only detailing related) are not aggressively advertised.  I hope you get what I mean.


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## the_jj (Apr 7, 2010)

ive had a couple of products in the past and the look the same and seem to do the same job (not going to say what products) 

who knows the names of the manufacutres? id love to look at there website to see what has been re branded by other companys as there own "special product"


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## Rainbow (Oct 30, 2013)

the_jj said:


> id love to look at there website to see what has been re branded by other companys as there own "special product"


This is the biggest secret of every manufacturer. You are seeking the holy grail


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## chillly (Jun 25, 2009)

The most expensive product on the market is prep/ hard work/ and elbow grease wich is 90% of detailing! Now if a manufacturer can bottle that then that would be something new


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## Jesse74 (Jul 19, 2008)

chillly said:


> The most expensive product on the market is prep/ hard work/ and elbow grease wich is 90% of detailing! Now if a manufacturer can bottle that then that would be something new


I'll see what we can whip up


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## chillly (Jun 25, 2009)

Wolf's Chemicals said:


> I'll see what we can whip up


:thumb:


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## tarbyonline (May 23, 2009)

MEH4N said:


> who knew tesco value beans are made by heinz? Its all branding everywhere.
> 
> As said it happens in every industry. Depends if you fall for all the marketing and fancy packaging.


They aren't to my knowledge, but then these things so often change. A product could be made by one company one month and another to the same spec the next.


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## GleemSpray (Jan 26, 2014)

the_jj said:


> ive had a couple of products in the past and the look the same and seem to do the same job (not going to say what products)
> 
> who knows the names of the manufacutres? id love to look at there website to see what has been re branded by other companys as there own "special product"


Well are we going to have some controversial naming and shaming then ? 😀

I do hope so ....


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## GleemSpray (Jan 26, 2014)

I have seen, when trawling the interweb for car care products, many, many, many different car forum threads where people suggest that a lot of the trendier boutique products are simply relabled CG / Warner Chemicals products with a fancy label.

The Chemical Guys name comes up over and over again and boutique products are , apparently, found to be identical in appearance and performance to Chemical Guys products.

These are not my opinions, I am simply repeating internet heresay.


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## smegal (Aug 14, 2009)

I have no issue with re branding. I do find price disparities a bit more hard to swallow. There are two manufacturers who sell the same product (an aio polish for this example) , I have seen people recommend the same product at a higher cost from the more trendy manufacturer over the one from the other. Surely it's what's on the bottle that counts.


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## smegal (Aug 14, 2009)

GleemSpray said:


> Well are we going to have some controversial naming and shaming then ? 😀
> 
> I do hope so ....


Now that I'd love to see. Let people vote with their feet


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## Baracuda (Apr 28, 2008)

It would be funny to see when the coatings market will pop and there will be like 2 manufacturers and 25 rebranded products. People expect that because the bottle is small ex 15-30-50ml it should also be expensive 

Wait until you see that! It's a shame that the asian market it's not that interested in us...YET.

All these new companies that pop up with a complete range of products from shampoo to fallout removers to polishes are rebranded products.


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## the_jj (Apr 7, 2010)

i agree! you know some of the prices are a joke. lets hope someone can say look at x company the make sealants/polish.


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## DJ X-Ray (Sep 2, 2012)

Baracuda said:


> It would be funny to see when the coatings market will pop and there will be like 2 manufacturers and 25 rebranded products. People expect that because the bottle is small ex 15-30-50ml it should also be expensive
> 
> Wait until you see that! It's a shame that the asian market it's not that interested in us...YET.
> 
> *All these new companies that pop up with a complete range of products from shampoo to fallout removers to polishes are rebranded products.*


 Probably are...but there's no way of proving it; unless a chemist or someone who works for the said company comes forward.
But who's going to do that ? 
There's been various threads/members, confronting manufacturers about their wares to no avail, at least nothing concrete, from what i've read, just, "he said, she said"...so until then i guess we'll never know.


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## CarChem (Mar 12, 2014)

This is a very interesting discussion and one which I don’t believe there is a right or wrong answer. Setting up a manufacturing facility in this day and age with all the health and safety issues which surround it costs allot of time and money and if CarChem hadn’t already had a manufacturing plant set up 25 years ago we would also buy in and sell on. I would just like to make all aware of the logistics to rebranding, basically even though companies do not have the facility to make products themselves most of them still have their “own products”. what I mean by this is most companies will give their manufacturer a specification of the type of product and the pricing point, the manufacturer will then spend time on R&D and work closely with the customer to achieve a formulation which is suitable to their brand and market. Please understand there are 1000’s of products on the market and the basis to the majority of them are similar. Sometimes people can see 2 products which do the same thing but are different colours and smells and automatically think its the same product, when in actual fact they are completely different in raw material structure but effectively do the same job. We have a database of around 10,000 formulations, each one specific and each one won’t be replicated twice. I hope this helps to clarify a slightly more in depth view in to the process, if any one has any questions on the above please let me know. :thumb:


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## Rayner (Aug 16, 2012)

Straight from the horse's mouth :thumb:

I really don't see the problem with it. If there is a product that is exactly the same ie the proper definition of rebranding and all they have done is stuck a different label on it and charge twice as much as the original then yeah that's crap but the way Stephan has explained it I really don't have a problem with.

Does anyone moan when re-mixed songs become a hit? No so why is this any different?

The other thing is that I'm sure Carchem and others rely on the companies that are ordering 1000's of litres of products from them.


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## GleemSpray (Jan 26, 2014)

On a related theme; I once had a discussion with someone who worked in the accounts department of a large and well known biscuit / confectionery manufacturer and we were talking about manufacturing / rebranding for supermarkets.

Apparently the trick is to create a separate batch of product which has a tiny amount of salt and /or sugar removed , which allows for two things :

1) It makes the biscuit / cake taste very similar, but not exactly the same

2) The manufacturer can make a (carefully worded) claim that their flagship product is not available anywhere else and that they do not supply it to anyone else.


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## wylie coyote (Jul 15, 2007)

Didn't the last discussion like this result in one of the wax manufacturers throwing their toys out of the pram and leaving? The only correct answer is that it happens in all industries and all walks of life so accept it and pay whatever price you're happy with for a specific brand or product.:wall:


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## Baracuda (Apr 28, 2008)

CarChem said:


> This is a very interesting discussion and one which I don't believe there is a right or wrong answer. Setting up a manufacturing facility in this day and age with all the health and safety issues which surround it costs allot of time and money and if CarChem hadn't already had a manufacturing plant set up 25 years ago we would also buy in and sell on. I would just like to make all aware of the logistics to rebranding, basically even though companies do not have the facility to make products themselves most of them still have their "own products". what I mean by this is most companies will give their manufacturer a specification of the type of product and the pricing point, the manufacturer will then spend time on R&D and work closely with the customer to achieve a formulation which is suitable to their brand and market. Please understand there are 1000's of products on the market and the basis to the majority of them are similar. Sometimes people can see 2 products which do the same thing but are different colours and smells and automatically think its the same product, when in actual fact they are completely different in raw material structure but effectively do the same job. We have a database of around 10,000 formulations, each one specific and each one won't be replicated twice. I hope this helps to clarify a slightly more in depth view in to the process, if any one has any questions on the above please let me know. :thumb:


First of all thank you for your post :thumb:

I don't think people here expect every brand to have their own factory. Even some do but some don't, or some make a part of their products in house and some are made elsewhere.

As you said, brands/clients come to a manufacturer with something specific for a product and then they work closely with them to achieve that product/target. - I don't have a problem with that !

That being said (and please correct me if i am wrong) aren't there brands/clients that come and choose from a catalogue of "base" products that have been already r&d-ed by the manufacturer and then choose a fragrance/color/consistency ? In other words they tweak on the esthetics of the product but not so much on what it does ? Ex a fallout remover or a shampoo ?

Thank you.


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## Jdudley90 (Mar 13, 2011)

What happened to ogle? They were pushing some promotions now gone!


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## Rayner (Aug 16, 2012)

Jdudley90 said:


> What happened to ogle? They were pushing some promotions now gone!


Got bought out, last I heard. New name perhaps or not ready to come back on?


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## 123HJMS (Mar 13, 2013)

smegal said:


> I have no issue with re branding. I do find price disparities a bit more hard to swallow. There are two manufacturers who sell the same product (an aio polish for this example) , I have seen people recommend the same product at a higher cost from the more trendy manufacturer over the one from the other. Surely it's what's on the bottle that counts.


AF and AB?


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## DJ X-Ray (Sep 2, 2012)

Jdudley90 said:


> What happened to ogle? They were pushing some promotions now gone!


Doesn't surprise me, they seemed a bit " fly- by- night" Not the sort of firm that would get my money anyway.


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## heavyd (Jun 11, 2006)

DJ X-Ray said:


> Doesn't surprise me, they seemed a bit " fly- by- night" Not the sort of firm that would get my money anyway.


Their waxes were pretty good TBH, well worth the money. I wonder who bought them out


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## 20vKarlos (Aug 8, 2009)

The thing for me on this subject is the companies that put their heart and sole into getting one product to market and it's cost them so much time effort and money to get that far, that when it comes to pricing that product, they have to sell it for as much money they can possibly get for it. 

I know business is buy as low as possible sell for as much as possible, but surely at some point we are going to just laugh at a company for their price structure!


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## Jdudley90 (Mar 13, 2011)

heavyd said:


> Their waxes were pretty good TBH, well worth the money. I wonder who bought them out


I don't get why you would buy them out. They were so new, the name wasn't here nor there and the waxes? Were they anything they couldn't be redone? Not a pop at ogle and congrats.


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## 20vKarlos (Aug 8, 2009)

Jdudley90 said:


> I don't get why you would buy them out. They were so new, the name wasn't here nor there and the waxes? Were they anything they couldn't be redone? Not a pop at ogle and congrats.


If a company is great in its first few months of trading, a company will try and sell it, this then makes the seller a lot of collateral for another business opportunity.


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## DJ X-Ray (Sep 2, 2012)

heavyd said:


> Their waxes were pretty good TBH, well worth the money. *I wonder who bought them out*


 Good question.
A friend of mine asked them some for some pictures on Facebook, nothing un-toward and they blocked him for some reason? Weird.


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## Blueberry (Aug 10, 2007)

DJ X-Ray said:


> Good question.
> A friend of mine asked them some for some pictures on Facebook, nothing un-toward and they blocked him for some reason? Weird.


That was all explained and sorted.


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## tarbyonline (May 23, 2009)

GleemSpray said:


> On a related theme; I once had a discussion with someone who worked in the accounts department of a large and well known biscuit / confectionery manufacturer and we were talking about manufacturing / rebranding for supermarkets.
> 
> Apparently the trick is to create a separate batch of product which has a tiny amount of salt and /or sugar removed , which allows for two things :
> 
> ...


This is a much better way of putting what I was trying to explain earlier! Thing is (as car chem have pointed out), just because a product is made in the same factory doesn't mean it is the same.

Personally I just buy the product I know will do the job at the price I want to pay. Most of my trying new things these days is restricted to what I get through the WaxyBox, or if something is on a good offer (or recommended by someone i trust) I'll take a risk on it. For some products (like glass cleaner) I don't even use a car specific brand (HG) as I find what I am using suits me better - that doesn't mean that will be the case for anyone else.

There's a lot of hype on this and other websites which talk up products, some of which is genuine, some due to a placebo affect (such as for example one product being better than another when they are identical), and some perhaps as the result of marketing/endorsements. What individuals believe is up to them.


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## GleemSpray (Jan 26, 2014)

I have to say that this is why I tend to stick with Autoglym. My knowledge of all things detailing is limited, but I know that AG products are decent quality, do what they say on the label and are (I think) surprisingly cheap compared to other brands for the level of performance that they deliver.


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## tarbyonline (May 23, 2009)

GleemSpray said:


> I have to say that this is why I tend to stick with Autoglym. My knowledge of all things detailing is limited, but I know that AG products are decent quality, do what they say on the label and are (I think) surprisingly cheap compared to other brands for the level of performance that they deliver.


I started out with Autoglym myself but have gradually moved away product by product. Leaning towards Sonax now for much the same reasons as you like Autoglym ironically, just I find the performance that bit better (though admittedly this could be a placebo effect). 2 AG products I still use are SRP and Vinyl and Rubber care which is fantastic applied to the engine bay whilst still wet and left to dry. BSC and The tar remover are two products I fall back on as well when I run out of my first choices. Bumper care was my go to dressing for external plastics until the nano coatings came along. As a hobbyist I want something that lasts in case I don't get time to constantly reapply every few weeks.

The great thing about AG is you can get it almost anywhere and its often in 3 for 2 promos in Halfords and B&Q. As you say you at least know you are going to get something which performs acceptably for a decent enough price. I also like their bottles as they take up less space than round ones.


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