# has anyone seen many gt86's around?



## Deniance (Jun 28, 2008)

hi all, i was just wondering has anyone seen the fancy toyotas going around,
really like these cars but, i aint seen nowt about, saw one in the city on a forecourt but.............,

are they not selling because they are slow or because they are overpriced or what?

are dealers slashing the prices?


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## rob_vrs (Jan 4, 2012)

There's 2 near me and seen a few about, but maybe I look for them as nearly bought one. I think they are overpriced slightly but 12plates are coming up for sale for around £21k now


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## Deniance (Jun 28, 2008)

ive been following reviews and stuff of these cars, and the majority of owners say they are pleased and its not about speed but the handling and all that, but even if you were on a race track surely you would get annoyed at all the other cars going faster than you!!

hell, even out and about, youd be getting beat by meganes clios, fiestas.......


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## g-man (Jul 11, 2009)

We had one in our shop the other day. Had a new door and repairs. Was surprised the parts we ordered weren't back ordered. They look nice but a lot of money for the minimal power you get!


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## Derekh929 (Aug 28, 2011)

No they never get past round about s as the drivers keep pulling on the handbrakes


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## Keir (Aug 31, 2010)

There's a dark grey one in teesside, I've seen it twice now.


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## Deniance (Jun 28, 2008)

just seems odd that there arent any around my way......

i wonder if there are any sales figures available.....


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## brinks (Jun 21, 2006)

Deniance said:


> just seems odd that there arent any around my way......
> 
> i wonder if there are any sales figures available.....


Around 1000 on the road

http://www.howmanyleft.co.uk/?utf8=✓&q=toyota+gt86

Shame really, the needed more power from the go to make an impression


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## Z4-35i (Jun 12, 2012)

Not seen any on the road to date. I wasn't sure about the looks from the press pictures, but having seen one on a Toyota dealers forecourt, they look pretty good, although I'm not keen on the interior styling.


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## The Cueball (Feb 8, 2007)

there is a muppet with one near me... he wasn't quite worked out that the car is all show and no go.... he tries to race everything in sight.....

Even the Vtec Yo!ers don't even bother with him, and they usually would race a shopping trolly if they could....

:thumb:


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## robertdon777 (Nov 3, 2005)

Seen one, but it was a loooooong way back in my rear view.

26k for a rwd cheaply made 197bhp 2+2 that ain't that good looking?

Or

29k for a rwd well made 320bhp 5 seated 3dr that ain't good looking.

GT86 vs M135i, only one winner in the sales dept there.


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## rob_vrs (Jan 4, 2012)

Have you drove a gt86?


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## Alex_225 (Feb 7, 2008)

I think I've seen two of them actually out and about. 

I'm not hugely taken with these cars although they have more presence on the road than photos give them credit for.

It just seems that there is a huge deal made of them being rear wheel drive yet they just strike me as a non-rotary engined RX8!? Also, from what I'm reading there are quick just as focused cars out there that just don't happen to be RWD.


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## rob_vrs (Jan 4, 2012)

Its a shame about the power, however driving one is amazing, but for its the little touches such as the pedals been set to help with heal and toe and that if you lay the rear seats down it has been designed to fit 4 track day wheels in, its also been designed to be tuned, with a version in japan that comes with steel wheels, unpainted bumbers and no stereo which if i remember correctly is £16k.


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

I've only seen two. 

Can't be selling well.


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## Blackroc (Dec 10, 2012)

There is a Toyota Dealership round the corner from where I'm working, and they have a few on the forecourt, and they do look good.

Clearly from the magazine and TV reviews, they handle really well, and have a sorted chassis, but people want a little bit more for their money these days.

The appeal of the M135, the new Merc, and the soon to be launched S3, is that they are practical, you can do the school run with 3 kids, you can turn up at your mates house and people go 'woahhh', you do get stopped at the petrol station by enthusiasts wanting a look, yet they still can go around a track as fast as 90% of cars MUCH more expensive.

It's a new breed of hyper hot hatches, that appeal to everyone, and sadly the Toyota / Subaru offering is almost too niche despite being a rather good car. 

Once they drop a turbo 260bhp version on the market, I'm sure they will shift healthily again....


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## davelincs (Jul 20, 2009)

A couple in our street have one, must admit they look the part, I quite like them


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## danwel (Feb 18, 2007)

They look nice shame about lack of power


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## Deniance (Jun 28, 2008)

I would love to drive one, sounds fun, but what about cars overtaking you constantly!!!, must annoy you on the track day!!!, and I saw the new Clio in a car pullout 200hp 19k........ Sounds better on me pocket

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## B17BLG (Jun 26, 2012)

saw 2 on the way to trafford centre and a brand new 13 plate RS4!!! om nom nom nom


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## Paintmaster1982 (Oct 23, 2007)

3 near me, one white, one black and one bronze. I really like them, Ive always been one for corner ability than straight line ablilty because at the end of the day although cars with a billion bhp are fun, these days you just cant really use it. 

B road + corners + good handling car = fun (IMO)

Plus what is fast for one might not be fast for another so no car is quick really. Speed is in the eye of the beholder  I've driven and been in many cars that claim to have a good turn of speed and to be honest ive been dissapointed.


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## rob_vrs (Jan 4, 2012)

Paintmaster1982 said:


> 3 near me, one white, one black and one bronze. I really like them, Ive always been one for corner ability than straight line ablilty because at the end of the day although cars with a billion bhp are fun, these days you just cant really use it.
> 
> B road + corners + good handling car = fun (IMO)
> 
> Plus what is fast for one might not be fast for another so no car is quick really. Speed is in the eye of the beholder  I've driven and been in many cars that claim to have a good turn of speed and to be honest ive been dissapointed.


Agree with this, especially with the power. In my opinion a fast car is something 400+bhp and 1000-1200kg, however 200bhp (enough for a daily) and excellent drivability is great along with eco tyres that they come with.

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## Deniance (Jun 28, 2008)

Wait until the new Nissan gt86 appears , then it will be fun, oh wait, Nissan don't make cars for the UK unless they are small lumpy ugly and have micro engines, gte is an exception but come on Nissan, your staff must be bored stiff making pixies all day

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## TubbyTwo (Apr 14, 2011)

Test drove one, actually a very nice drive, handling was great.

However even as a hardcore Toyota lover I have to agree with it needing more power, although its not really about speed with the GT86.


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## rapala (Jan 18, 2007)

Seen a couple around town and had a good look round the subaru version in a showroom.Nice looking car and i think would be a lot of fun to drive.But as everyone says its not as fast as its looks suggest it is.Also there seems to be quite a lot of low milage ones for sale.Makes me wonder if people who brought them where not that impressed with them after having them for a while.


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## rob_vrs (Jan 4, 2012)

Seem to be ex-demo's


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## Dixondmn (Oct 12, 2007)

There is one in the car park at work, it looks a bit of a mess in all honesty. All angles and curves, but having said that at least its not dull.


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## lofty (Jun 19, 2007)

I don't think they are too slow, I just think they are too slow for £26k.When the concept was first shown 3 years ago, the price was rumoured to be around £13k in Japan and under £20k here.They are in fact around £16k in the US but sold as a Scion.The fact that a demo with a couple of thousand miles on the clock can be had for £20k proves they must not be selling well, and also shows the market is demanding a lower price.


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## d7ve_b (Jul 1, 2010)

They're not all slow, I've seen a BRZ fitted with an off the shelf supercharger make 300bhp on a set of very conservative rollers. Now that's a nice machine!


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## PugIain (Jun 28, 2006)

Paintmaster1982 said:


> 3 near me, one white, one black and one bronze


I saw the black one yesterday. I quite like them. They're not a pretty car, but then again they are'nt a boring, generic lump.
I'd wager they're a lot more fun than a more powerful, heavy , front drive hatchback. Not mentioning any names.

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## robertdon777 (Nov 3, 2005)

rob_vrs said:


> Have you drove a gt86?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


No but you can't go sideways on public roads nomatter how much people see it on TopGear or Evo mag, so that argument is out the window.


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## davies20 (Feb 22, 2009)

Seen loads & loads around near me. 

Spoke to a Toyota dealership manager & he agreed that they need more power.

He spoke of plans in the pipeline to Turbo them, but he said it was a long long way off.


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## TubbyTwo (Apr 14, 2011)

Plenty of aftermarket kit to charge them Greddy have just released a nice looking kit


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## Deniance (Jun 28, 2008)

Holy cow, I've just been to the Toyota site, it has details of a Trd version
31,000 pounds for some trim and exhaust, surely at this price car is doomed
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## 182_Blue (Oct 25, 2005)

Has anyone mentioned it needs more power LOL.


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## lofty (Jun 19, 2007)

Deniance said:


> Holy cow, I've just been to the Toyota site, it has details of a Trd version
> 31,000 pounds for some trim and exhaust, surely at this price car is doomed
> Sent from my HTC Sensation Z710e using Tapatalk 2


Seen one yesterday at the dealers, looked a bit OTT.The only improvement are the 18"wheels instead of the piddly little 17"s.


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## robertdon777 (Nov 3, 2005)

Shaun said:


> Has anyone mentioned it needs more power LOL.


Doesn't need more power if it were a 20K car, which is what it should of been.

They overpriced it, a Mazda MX5 will give you as many thrills at low speed if that's your thing.

8K on a second hand Boxster and then 18K on a nice 535d Tourer for the family work, Best of both worlds:

Boxster

535D

You would need to be mental to buy a GT86over those two. Not only because they are better cars but they would provide more fun that a GT86 ever could. They would also loose much less money over the next 3 years. Boxster might loose 1.5K and the 535D about 4K. The GT86 will loose 5K once off the forecourt.


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

robertdon777 said:


> Doesn't need more power if it were a 20K car, which is what it should of been.
> 
> They overpriced it, a Mazda MX5 will give you as many thrills at low speed if that's your thing.
> 
> ...


To be fair the Mazda MX5 with the 2.0 160BHP engine starts at £23k as you can't get the base spec with the 2.0.

The 1.8 starts at £20k but the time you add a few extras to align up with the spec of the GT86, you aren't too far apart in the price.

The GT86 also has a LSD which is a costly addition that the MX5 doesn't have.

The GT86 is also a bit more practical. It is possible to get kids in the back and the boot is far bigger.

I agree the GT86 could and should be faster. It actually seems slower than it should be given the power to weight ratio.

The car only weighs 1188kg and this is lighter than most of the last generation hot hatchbacks with 200BHP and most of them were in the mid 6s for 0-60mph.

Tested figures are a little faster than Toyota say, with lower 7s being recorded a few times. Still not ground breaking but still not too bad.

The price is a sticking point for many but look at other cars on the go at the moment. A 1.4 Golf with 140BHP costs £25k with little spec.

RWD cars are always more expensive to produce and there isn't much direct competition.

You could always make an argument about buying cheaper second hand cars, but if nobody bought new in the first place the car market wouldn't exist.

Second hand values seem good. £21k for a year old car isn't what you call bad. To lose only 16% of a car's value after 1 year is considered very good.


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## robertdon777 (Nov 3, 2005)

I meant a second hand cheap mx5 for cheap low speed driving thrills, sorry for the confusion.

Yeah I agree about new v second hand, personally I can never get past the bang for buck second hand produces.

I know what I'd like to see on my drive out of the cars above if I was spending 26k and the Boxster S and 535d Sport Tourer are far far more appealing than having a new GT86 on the drive, but some people out there obviously think different and that's fine.


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## JohnA88 (Jul 26, 2011)

Nice cars but just customized mine and it would be £27k :O


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## Franzpan (Mar 2, 2009)

I don't think they will be big sellers. Anyone who wants a focused drivers car will want it to be fast too and will most likely be willing to spend more on a baby Porsche or the likes and someone who just wants a reasonably good to drive car which is pretty fast would probably go for a hot hatch around the same price as the Toyota. My old Diesel Volvo is quicker than it to 60 for goodness sake, and would hammer it in gear.


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## alx_chung (Aug 13, 2006)

Not seen any on the road but my local Toyota dealer has a blue, white and bronze one in. Loving the bronze colour and the blue, might as for a test drive soon, not driven one but looking at the spec I do agree it does need a more power say 220-250 bhp.
Alex


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## Bulkhead (Oct 17, 2007)

robertdon777 said:


> Seen one, but it was a loooooong way back in my rear view.
> 
> 26k for a rwd cheaply made 197bhp 2+2 that ain't that good looking?
> 
> ...


I think it looks overpriced due to other makes, such as BMW, are cheap in the UK. Just priced up a GT 86 and a BMW 135 over here. The GT 86 GTS (top spec) comes in at around AU$35k whilst the BMW135 is around AU$80k. I looked at an 86 but decided against it based on power/torque outputs and a crazy waiting list - around 8 months.


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

Franzpan said:


> I don't think they will be big sellers. Anyone who wants a focused drivers car will want it to be fast too and will most likely be willing to spend more on a baby Porsche or the likes and someone who just wants a reasonably good to drive car which is pretty fast would probably go for a hot hatch around the same price as the Toyota. My old Diesel Volvo is quicker than it to 60 for goodness sake, and would hammer it in gear.


Everybody that drives it admits the performance figures don't do it justice.

The car costs £25k and even a basic Cayman is £40k which is 60% more money and will be significantly more money to run.

People keep going on about how slow and expensive it is then to better it they are comparing it to cars that are in a completely different class altogether.

Having a quick glance at Volvos a C30 D5 with 150BHP isn't much cheaper and it has a 0-60MPH time of 9.4secs.

The Volvo S60 with the 215BHP matches the 0-60MPH time but at a glance will set you back over £35k.

I'm a little confused why the GT86 has built up such a queue of people who just want to dislike it.

Everyone keeps going on about how slow it is, yet often they drive cars considerably slower.

They keep going on about too expensive, yet nobody has given a competitor to it.

The Mazda MX5 has a reputation of being a cheap great fun car.

So home come when the GT86 costs the same as a similarly specced MX5, it is faster, bigger and has expensive things like a LSD, yet it has a reputation as being overpriced?

Every single person that drives the GT86 loves it. Is maybe that the reason other people just want to pick fault?

What old Volvo do you have that can do 0-60MPH in low 7s? That seems fast by modern diesel performance and I can't think of many old ones doing that.


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## robertdon777 (Nov 3, 2005)

370z is only 29k too, so if you are spending 26k on a RWD coupe surely the Nissan would come onto your radar and then the extra 3 grand buys you a great deal more car.

Delivery mileage ones can be had for £26k fairly easy.


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

robertdon777 said:


> 370z is only 29k too, so if you are spending 26k on a RWD coupe surely the Nissan would come onto your radar and then the extra 3 grand buys you a great deal more car.
> 
> Delivery mileage ones can be had for £26k fairly easy.


I see £30k as the bottom list price and £33.5 with the GT kit.

Still a minimum of 20% more and the 370Z will be significantly more expensive to run.

Top road tax bracket and lucky to get low 20MPG.

I've never paid list price for any car. Surely you would get something off a GT86 especially if they aren't selling well.


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## lofty (Jun 19, 2007)

At least 10% off a new GT 86. Other similar comparibles would be the Roc and TT, both slightly up on power( not much) and both slightly more expensive, although the smaller engined versions are cheaper.I guess it's other rival would be the new Golf GTi, slightly more power for just over £25k.The biggest let down of the 86 for me is the interior, and compared to the VW group cars its miles away.I'm not sure why 200PS is now perceived as under powered, it seems about the norm for this type of car.Maybe its the hot hatches (vxr, magane, focus st) that make it look a bit puny nowadays.I personally quite like the GT86, I bet its fun to drive on the twisty's and fast enough for everything but a track.But considering Toyota are trying to get back into this market segment I think they overpriced it slightly, if they had brought out two versions with similar outputs to the Roc/TT and charged £3/4k less then I think they would have sold by the boatload.


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## pharmed (Feb 11, 2013)

All show no go unfortunately... they should bring out a special edition with a better engine


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## rapala (Jan 18, 2007)

Kerr said:


> I see £30k as the bottom list price and £33.5 with the GT kit.
> 
> Still a minimum of 20% more and the 370Z will be significantly more expensive to run.
> 
> ...


Ancaster Nissan group are offering the 370z GT edition for £27,995 at the moment.


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## robertdon777 (Nov 3, 2005)

Kerr said:


> I see £30k as the bottom list price and £33.5 with the GT kit.
> 
> Still a minimum of 20% more and the 370Z will be significantly more expensive to run.
> 
> ...


You're not looking in the right places, even a simple Autotrader search brings up 1 garage doing them for 26K delivery mileage (13 miles) on 13 plates and a few at 27-28K.

But when you are talking about 26K brand new car surely you would be looking at a 28K motor that offers so much more for the money.

The problem came when they launched it at 26K when the rumours were that it would come to market at 21K.


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

robertdon777 said:


> You're not looking in the right places, even a simple Autotrader search brings up 1 garage doing them for 26K delivery mileage (13 miles) on 13 plates and a few at 27-28K.
> 
> But when you are talking about 26K brand new car surely you would be looking at a 28K motor that offers so much more for the money.
> 
> The problem came when they launched it at 26K when the rumours were that it would come to market at 21K.


You are comparing the list price of one car against the discounted price of another. Not really like for like.

A quick google search I can see the GT86 for £22.5k brand new.

The 370Z is a nice car but it is significantly more expensive to buy and run.

I don't see a 2.0 and a 3.7 v6 in direct competition to each other.

Even looking at fuel for a standard 12, 000 mile a year driver you will be spending roughly £1700 more on petrol each year, £1500 more on finance each year(based on 4 years and not accounting for interest), £500 more on first time registration and £250 more per year on road tax.

You are looking at a around £300 per month price difference between owning and running the cars.

That is far too much to even consider the cars as direct competition.


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## Scrim-1- (Oct 8, 2008)

I've seen a few around the town I must say they look fantastic but they have no power at all.


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## Mrizzle (Aug 11, 2012)

I'm sure they're fun to drive but they lack power, have a cheap and very outdated interior and the alloys look far too small IMO.


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## rob_vrs (Jan 4, 2012)

This power/price issue people have, 

how much (should i say were, not sure if they still sell mk6) are golf GTI's?

What bhp are golf GTI's?


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

rob_vrs said:


> This power/price issue people have,
> 
> how much (should i say were, not sure if they still sell mk6) are golf GTI's?
> 
> ...


217bhp for the new one coming, 207bhp for the last one.


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## rob_vrs (Jan 4, 2012)

Kerr said:


> 217bhp for the new one coming, 207bhp for the last one.


207bhp for the mk6? Just done a quick search £26-£27k

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## robertdon777 (Nov 3, 2005)

Everyone knows golf gti's are overpriced.

Fair enough the GT86 is good for its price point, but the alternatives whatever they may be are just better options and that shows in the sales figures.

I think the alternatives are the do all, back from the dead Hot hatch brigade.


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## rob_vrs (Jan 4, 2012)

robertdon777 said:


> Everyone knows golf gti's are overpriced.
> 
> Fair enough the GT86 is good for its price point, but the alternatives whatever they may be are just better options and that shows in the sales figures.
> 
> I think the alternatives are the do all, back from the dead Hot hatch brigade.


Totally agree with you, id say gt86 is more of a sports car that a gti too in my opinion, i also think the brand image of a toyota is not as good as the likes of maybe subaru and as my example VW which probably doesn't help.

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## B17BLG (Jun 26, 2012)

I quite like them! So do many of the car reviewers too who have actually driven them.......


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## alan hanson (May 21, 2008)

seen two and both driven by middle age women, cant say they look that special tbh but no doubt a very enjoyable drive


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

rob_vrs said:


> Totally agree with you, id say gt86 is more of a sports car that a gti too in my opinion, i also think the brand image of a toyota is not as good as the likes of maybe subaru and as my example VW which probably doesn't help.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


This is what I don't quite agree with being a bit older than you.

Look back at the 90s and Toyota were producing the Supra, MR2 and Celica in many hot forms.

I see Toyota as more desirable than Subaru.

Toyota can make great cars when they have to although they don't seem to be aiming at the same market.

They are still responsible for Lexus and they make one of the best cars out there.


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## rob_vrs (Jan 4, 2012)

B17BLG said:


> I quite like them! So do many of the car reviewers too who have actually driven them.......


Try get a test drive, you'll like it.....i think haha

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## rob_vrs (Jan 4, 2012)

Kerr said:


> This is what I don't quite agree with being a bit older than you.
> 
> Look back at the 90s and Toyota were producing the Supra, MR2 and Celica in many hot forms.
> 
> ...


I never said I thought the brand wasn't as good, I went to buy a GT86 haha, i preferred it over the BRZ as looks better, nicer interior and 5 years warranty. I just think like you said with its aims on the auris, yaris, avensis its aiming at a older market in recent years, but they are trying to get that back now introducing the likes of the SR models to there range and the 86. There has been a massive gap since the likes of the MR2, Supra and Celica so think they are trying to enter the market again and people forget about the older range they did.

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## rob_vrs (Jan 4, 2012)

robertdon777 said:


> 370z is only 29k too, so if you are spending 26k on a RWD coupe surely the Nissan would come onto your radar and then the extra 3 grand buys you a great deal more car.
> 
> Delivery mileage ones can be had for £26k fairly easy.


Watch chris harris review on youtube of the 370z against the gt86 

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## B17BLG (Jun 26, 2012)

rob_vrs said:


> Try get a test drive, you'll like it.....i think haha
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


:lol:

Hows that SV collection coming along?


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## robertdon777 (Nov 3, 2005)

rob_vrs said:


> Watch chris harris review on youtube of the 370z against the gt86
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


He's painful to watch though:lol:


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## rob_vrs (Jan 4, 2012)

Haha I think he's good.

It's going good matey, wanting weather to pick up anti though so I can use it. Need to get rid of some of this Crystal Rock so I can purchase more haha. How's yours going?


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## chopper602 (Sep 19, 2007)

Keir said:


> There's a dark grey one in teesside, I've seen it twice now.


That'll be me then (and dragging this thread up to date)!!

There seems to be no end of people, not only on here, but elsewhere who want to knock this car and slag it off for being too slow and not powerful enough, without ever driving one. Have a test drive, then offer an opinion! I came to mine from a Mito QV and before that a 2.0 MX-5 (and a host of other cars!) and this is the best car I've owned.

I'll leave it there . . .


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## TubbyTwo (Apr 14, 2011)

chopper602 said:


> That'll be me then (and dragging this thread up to date)!!
> 
> There seems to be no end of people, not only on here, but elsewhere who want to knock this car and slag it off for being too slow and not powerful enough, without ever driving one. Have a test drive, then offer an opinion! I came to mine from a Mito QV and before that a 2.0 MX-5 (and a host of other cars!) and this is the best car I've owned.
> 
> I'll leave it there . . .


usual story mate, the ones one no experience are always the ones to have an opinion 

I was at my Local Toyota on monday getting a few parts and had a good look round the one in the showroom, have to say the cabin looks a nice place to sit!

You will always get the haters though buddy as its not a run of the mill mundane VAG box. :lol:


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## rob_vrs (Jan 4, 2012)

chopper602 said:


> That'll be me then (and dragging this thread up to date)!!
> 
> There seems to be no end of people, not only on here, but elsewhere who want to knock this car and slag it off for being too slow and not powerful enough, without ever driving one. Have a test drive, then offer an opinion! I came to mine from a Mito QV and before that a 2.0 MX-5 (and a host of other cars!) and this is the best car I've owned.
> 
> I'll leave it there . . .


Im very jealous of you, i really wish i could of got one (stupid back) , i love them and the drive when i test drove one was MEGA


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## Raga (Feb 14, 2012)

You don't need loads of power tho have fun  
The gt86 has enough power for its set up , you just have to knowhow to drive it to make it fun  
Cars a beaut tho if I had the cash that would be in my drive right now!


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## Joe the Plumber (Sep 4, 2012)

If you've got one, and fancy a little more umph:

http://www.litchfieldimports.co.uk/Toyota/GT86-BRZ-Performance

Litchfield's various Type 20 and Type 25 Imprezas are legendary, and of course they also now do the GT-Rs (and even the Nissan Juke!), so I would expect their alterations to the GT86/BRZ to be similarly excellent.


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## chopper602 (Sep 19, 2007)

rob_vrs said:


> Im very jealous of you, i really wish i could of got one (stupid back) , i love them and the drive when i test drove one was MEGA


Seats are the best I've ever sat in. Car looks good clean too


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## MK1Campaign (Mar 27, 2007)

Cant stand them looks wise. The factory fit wheels are some of the worst ive seen on a so called performance car.


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## chris3boro (May 12, 2008)

I love the look/idea behind them. Yet to drive one though. Agree the standard wheels are awful though, like some horrendous Halfords specials. 

CHOPPER- Yours looks great, those alloys look miles better than the standard wheels


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## Franzpan (Mar 2, 2009)

Kerr said:


> Everybody that drives it admits the performance figures don't do it justice.
> 
> The car costs £25k and even a basic Cayman is £40k which is 60% more money and will be significantly more money to run.
> 
> ...


C30 D5 is 180bhp  0-60 7.5


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## rob_vrs (Jan 4, 2012)

chopper602 said:


> Seats are the best I've ever sat in. Car looks good clean too


Seats are ace it's the feet up in front due to being sat on the floor that was my issue.


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## Deniance (Jun 28, 2008)

Saw my first one today, finally, these cannot be selling well!, it was red, rear lights don't do it any favours, and those wheels eases, I still want one tho


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## Porkypig (Jun 20, 2012)

I have seen one and didn't look twice at it. Also saw a BRZ stickered up on a dealer forecourt, but no one had bought it, been there for mths....


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## johanr77 (Aug 4, 2011)

Love a car slagging thread.

It's underpowered = Because i've driven something quicker on Forza motorsport.
It's expensive = I can't pay that for it so it must be crap
It looks bad = My clio is much nicer to look at, well I tell myself that because I can't afford the car I'm criticising
The interior is hideous = From the brief look I've had on their website


I think if they knocked a couple of K off the starting price more of these will sell better. As it's Toyota you have much more chance of that than say trying to get a couple of K off the BMW someone was trying to compare it to. I quite like these they look alright, the handling has been set up to have a bit of fun without firing off into a tree.


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## chris3boro (May 12, 2008)

Chopper- I spotted your '86 at Stockton Toyota today-got a snap of my MR2 next to it. The car looked great by the way!


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## chopper602 (Sep 19, 2007)

Filthy dirty though. Told them not to wash it either.


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## s29nta (Mar 9, 2013)

Black one spotted today in middlewich,Cheshire. I thought it looked well


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

It suddenly looks a lot bigger parked next to the MR2.


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## chris3boro (May 12, 2008)

chopper602 said:


> Filthy dirty though. Told them not to wash it either.


What were you there for? I popped in to look at the GT86 in the showroom


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## chopper602 (Sep 19, 2007)

chris3boro said:


> What were you there for? I popped in to look at the GT86 in the showroom


USB Socket had stopped working (plug had come off back of head unit) and the drivers side door rubber isn't water/wind tight (going back next week for a replacement). They gave me an Auris to get to work in - it's horrible!

The GT86 is still great though :driver: and getting a good :detailer: tomorrow


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## chopper602 (Sep 19, 2007)

Kerr said:


> It suddenly looks a lot bigger parked next to the MR2.


The GT86 is a 2+2 remember with a proper boot too


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## chris3boro (May 12, 2008)

chopper602 said:


> USB Socket had stopped working (plug had come off back of head unit) and the drivers side door rubber isn't water/wind tight (going back next week for a replacement). They gave me an Auris to get to work in - it's horrible!
> 
> The GT86 is still great though :driver: and getting a good :detailer: tomorrow


Ah gotcha. Yeh I saw a few of the new Auris' there today. I did notice, like in most dealers I suppose, when the lads were moving the customers cars around they were absolutely revving the nuts off them for no apparent reason-seconds after starting them and then switching them straight off too :wall:


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## chopper602 (Sep 19, 2007)

chris3boro said:


> Ah gotcha. Yeh I saw a few of the new Auris' there today. I did notice, like in most dealers I suppose, when the lads were moving the customers cars around they were absolutely revving the nuts off them for no apparent reason-seconds after starting them and then switching them straight off too :wall:


Yeah . . . thanks for that ! I took a photo of the mileage when I dropped it off to prevent joyrides, but of course I have no idea how it was moved into the workshop.


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## Deniance (Jun 28, 2008)

Still only seen one, since they been released!!


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## RaceGlazer (Jan 10, 2007)

Only seen one, dont want to mention it was driven by a girl...oops..


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## Raga (Feb 14, 2012)

My mate has bought one drove it yesterday ... Car looks stunning just lacks power ! But then again Toyota didn't really want to make this into some power monster did they... Think with some wider tyres the car would be fun to drive on a long road full of bends at the moment tho very tail happy if thrown which is good if not tried by a inexperienced driver ..


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## DMH-01 (Mar 29, 2011)

My sister's mate has been given one of these after someone hit her Audi A1.


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## Dift (May 22, 2011)

Raga said:


> My mate has bought one drove it yesterday ... Car looks stunning just lacks power ! But then again Toyota didn't really want to make this into some power monster did they... Think with some wider tyres the car would be fun to drive on a long road full of bends at the moment tho very tail happy if thrown which is good if not tried by a inexperienced driver ..


Curious why you would put wider tyres on an already well setup car which lacks a little power?


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## uruk hai (Apr 5, 2009)

I've noticed one and if it was mine I would like the fact that there appears to be very few around.


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## svended (Oct 7, 2011)

A neighbours friend has one in a metal terracotta colour. It's a woman who drives it, her words are "I occassionally go below the speed limit as it's such a great drive, but I only drive the way I like where it's safe". When I asked who looks after it, she replied "my boyfriend, when it gets dirty I just throw the keys at him. He doesn't like me cleaning it and I don't like cleaning it, but he does". The woman in question is late forties-early fifties and about six foot tall (certainly not one to mess with by the looks of her). All I could think was 'respect to you lass'.


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## ianrobbo1 (Feb 13, 2007)

Makes me laugh, all the banging on about lack of power, it's already been said on this thread the car was designed to have a bit more power, so how much would a remap cost to bring this "underpowered" car up to near everyone's expectations??
I cant afford one, I think it looks ok, agree the wheels look like casters,  but good luck to those that have one or can afford one!!:thumb:


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## griffin1907 (Mar 4, 2006)

Have seen 9 today !!!!! Oh, hang on, it's the same one, I'm looking in Evo Magazine as they've just acquired a long termer.


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

ianrobbo1 said:


> Makes me laugh, all the banging on about lack of power, it's already been said on this thread the car was designed to have a bit more power, so how much would a remap cost to bring this "underpowered" car up to near everyone's expectations??
> I cant afford one, I think it looks ok, agree the wheels look like casters,  but good luck to those that have one or can afford one!!:thumb:


You're not likely to see big gains from a remap as the car is normally aspirated.

From all the complaints about lack of power, most of the people saying that don't have 200bhp in their own cars.


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## msb (Dec 20, 2009)

I think most here are totally missing the point of the gt86, as do many with the mx5 these cars are all about handling and how they make you feel when exploiting the limits of handling, also the gt86 from the outset is a car with aftermarket upgrades in mind for the owner to improve how they wish at a later date, as i suspect in years to come many will similarly to how the mx5 aftermarket scene has exploded over the years.
At the end of the day decent rwd cars are in relatively short supply these days and i think its great toyota and subaru had the balls to go out and make a car that true drivers will want and can have fun in at sensible cost and speeds!


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## MidlandsCarCare (Feb 18, 2006)

We've had a few in but only seen one other on the roads:


DSC09000 by RussZS, on Flickr


DSC07231 by RussZS, on Flickr


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## Deniance (Jun 28, 2008)

Saw my second one today, hot cakes


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## Clancy (Jul 21, 2013)

There's loads of them around, see one every few days lol 

There's 2 black, one orange one silver and one grey one that I see fairly regularly in the city centre 

Lovely cars, would have to supercharge it if I had one though


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## Geordieexile (May 21, 2013)

Got to say I like the look of them. Ok, they could do with more power possibly but it's a while since this type of car was on the market. I've not had a go in one yet but I wouldn't mind. It reminds me a little of the place in the market of the S14 200SX which needed a turbo in the fantastic SR20DET engine to hit its 'just under' 200BHP. This too was an immensely tuneable car and just look at its following in the drift world.
As for the comparison with a Cayman and others, it's a different beast. I love my Cayman for its handling and smooth application of power ... it's very refined and forgiving. I loved the 200SX as you had to really feel the car to know when it was going to throw a wobbly. That's the place in the market for the GT86 and tbh 26k doesn't seem much to me for what it is. You may not get it sideways on public roads but a decent driver with RWD should get it round corners faster.
It's also probably a good daily driver with reasonable MPG with it being normally aspirated. I think my mrs has her eye on one as it has seats for the nippers too!


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## Deniance (Jun 28, 2008)

Saw another today! Yay!


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## James Bagguley (Jul 13, 2013)

One so far, today, Queens park leisure centre car park, Chesterfield.


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## downhuman (Mar 25, 2007)

So expensive and slow for the money I'm not surprised they aren't selling many. Neighbour has one, now wishes he bought a zed after taking him out in mine. Which cost half what his did and is a lot quicker and torquier


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

downhuman said:


> So expensive and slow for the money I'm not surprised they aren't selling many. Neighbour has one, now wishes he bought a zed after taking him out in mine. Which cost half what his did and is a lot quicker and torquier


Everyone keeps saying too expensive and slow, yet can't actually come up with anything other than a MX5 as a direct comparison and they cost nearly the same and are slower.

The 370Z isn't a direct comparison as they are far more costly to run.

The 0-60mph time in the Toyota doesn't look good, but on the move it is not bad. 100mph comes up about 1.5secs off an Astra VXR.

You also can't compare the price of a new car against an old one.


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## DimSum (Aug 13, 2013)

I always thought these GT-86 do look nice but have to agree, for the price you pay you don't get a lot.

Starting price, lets say its £21k but for something cheaper, faster and more fuel efficient for example the new Astra VXR its base price is £17955.00

I wouldn't mind getting once the price is dropped, then maybe replace the engine lol......


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## johanr77 (Aug 4, 2011)

Think your finger slipped when you typed in the astra price, add another £10k.


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## Stan. (Aug 11, 2013)

I've seen a few around in Dorset.

Best one Ive seen was in grey and looked really smart.

The performance of them wouldn't make me consider one though.


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

DimSum said:


> I always thought these GT-86 do look nice but have to agree, for the price you pay you don't get a lot.
> 
> Starting price, lets say its £21k but for something cheaper, faster and more fuel efficient for example the new Astra VXR its base price is £17955.00
> 
> I wouldn't mind getting once the price is dropped, then maybe replace the engine lol......


As above, an Astra VXR is £27k start price these days. More than 10 years ago my Astra GSi Turbo was over £17k.

You are now comparing a FWD to a RWD car. For those who it matters to, if you want a RWD car you won't consider a FWD car as an alternative.

That's the entire point of the GT86, bring a RWD sports car to an affordable level.

RWD cars are more expensive to produce than FWD.

The Focus ST starts at £22k but they making saving by missing out on a LSD which is standard on the GT86.

People are just totally missing the point of the car.


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## Guest (Aug 22, 2013)

Kerr said:


> As above, an Astra VXR is £27k start price these days. More than 10 years ago my Astra GSi Turbo was over £17k.
> 
> You are now comparing a FWD to a RWD car. For those who it matters to, if you want a RWD car you won't consider a FWD car as an alternative.
> 
> ...


Are people missing the point or can they just not see the point ?, personally i think they have produced a car that nobody asked for or wanted, for the record i dont think its over priced , i do think its underpowered but i really just wouldn't want one, on top of that i dont get the rear wheel drive obsession that some folk have either (not for road use anyway).


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## downhuman (Mar 25, 2007)

Yeah I'm not missing the point at all.... I get it. I just don't buy into it.

I know comparing a used car and new car isn't a direct comparison but for many people it is a real world consideration. Which is why magazines run features like "look what you could get for new golf money... How about a 911?"

If you're a petrolhead you invest your money in the car you like the most which fulfils the purpose you want it too...

I'd rather spend 12k on a 350/370 or similar and pocket the change for the increased running costs.

The GT86 is well intended but will remain niche for those reasons .


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

paul01 said:


> Are people missing the point or can they just not see the point ?, personally i think they have produced a car that nobody asked for or wanted, for the record i dont think its over priced , i do think its underpowered but i really just wouldn't want one, on top of that i dont get the rear wheel drive obsession that some folk have either (not for road use anyway).


That's why its got 200BHP, it's for the road.

If you don't understand why people get enjoyment of RWD, maybe cars aren't your thing.

Even my girlfriend who isn't really a petrolhead got it within minutes.

She had a Mini Cooper for years, which is one of the better handling FWD cars, and once she tried a MX5 she was hooked.

She loved the steering as it had a precise feel. The front wheels are overworked on FWD cars and it's always a compromise.

Many are still fun but they are at breaking point how far they car push it.


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

downhuman said:


> Yeah I'm not missing the point at all.... I get it. I just don't buy into it.
> 
> I know comparing a used car and new car isn't a direct comparison but for many people it is a real world consideration. Which is why magazines run features like "look what you could get for new golf money... How about a 911?"
> 
> ...


You've only got the option of buying an older Z because there is older ones.

What happens when GT86s are 5 years old and worth £7-8k?

It's a small RWD car with very reasonable running costs. The Z cars are on a different level for running costs.

For all we are criticising lack of demand of the GT86, I don't see many 370Zs on the road either these days, even with the big discounts.

Lovely cars, but they are too pricey for most to consider.

Most people that try the GT86 and love it. Sometimes there is more than straight line speed, although I do think I'd miss pace too.

But I see the GT86 as a my first RWD or RWD on a budget.


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## James Bagguley (Jul 13, 2013)

I havent driven RWD, but i understand the pull for the petrolhead, and the concept behind the GT86.

I know a guy with a 7O's 911, he tried driving his mates Carrera 4S, although enjoyable, he much prefers his 911, less horse power, but a much more fun and engaging experience on the road.


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## downhuman (Mar 25, 2007)

To be objective, I've never driven one to be fair. 
When they're used I think it would be interesting to see who picks one over an mx5. I couldn't make that choice


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## Guest (Aug 22, 2013)

I will let the sales figures speak for themselves  , especially cars aren't my thing PMSL.


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## James Bagguley (Jul 13, 2013)

I think the '86 maybe pips it for me, a bit less "hairdressery" 

Although, its a damn shame the roadsters are tarred with that brush, as they are (i understand) awesome drivers cars.


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

downhuman said:


> To be objective, I've never driven one to be fair.
> When they're used I think it would be interesting to see who picks one over an mx5. I couldn't make that choice


They are a hoot.

Try yourself or put a little trust in known journalists who all loved them.

The MX5 is its only real direct competition. If you look at the price of the 2.0 MX5 with the hard top and similar options, you're not much cheaper than a GT86 and have 40BHP more and a LSD on the Toyota.

We've got an MX5 (her car) and it is a brilliant little thing. I'd take the Toyota first though.

I'm not sure what they hoped to sell. Maybe they are selling what they predicted. They've not long released an even more expensive TRD model with no more power.


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## DimSum (Aug 13, 2013)

Kerr said:


> As above, an Astra VXR is £27k start price these days. More than 10 years ago my Astra GSi Turbo was over £17k.
> 
> You are now comparing a FWD to a RWD car. For those who it matters to, if you want a RWD car you won't consider a FWD car as an alternative.
> 
> ...


Sorry about getting my facts wrong, I did go online to see the price list. Maybe i screwed up at some point lol.

And no you are right about the RWD and FD. Shows how much I know 
But for me I still prefer my 90s Jap cars


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## Lloyd71 (Aug 21, 2008)

I've not seen many of these about myself, but I intend to test drive one at some point just to see what they're actually like. It'll be interesting to compare it to the RX8 out on the bumpy island roads.


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## Deniance (Jun 28, 2008)

Apparently, internet rumours say they are shelving the cabriolet and turbo versions.......omg ,goodbye gt86 , god i want one!


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## downhuman (Mar 25, 2007)

I am happy with my HR Engine 350z and fiat 500 but would drive one out of curiosity. ..
Similar in premise in a way to an old car of mine. Albeit that was the fwd equivalent. Ford racing puma... expensive, underpowered but my, how she cornered


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## Deniance (Jun 28, 2008)

Think im up to 4 now, god these things will be rare


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## James Bagguley (Jul 13, 2013)

> god these things will be rare


I agree, still on one.


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## Deniance (Jun 28, 2008)

I have now seen more dacia dusters than gt86!


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## Ross (Apr 25, 2007)

Seen about four in Shetland


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## busterbulldog (Sep 5, 2012)

Saw a red one stuffed up the butt of another car on Tredegar park roundabout a cpl weeks back.


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## andy665 (Nov 1, 2005)

Look at the reviews of the TRD car, the extra grip spoils the car

As Kerr says its not about ultimate grip or power or speed, its about the feel

How much is an Elise with 134bhp - £30k - thats where you need to be looking in terms of a car with the same thinking

I have driven the GT86 on the track and on the road to a reasonable degree - could it be faster - YES, could it have more grip - YES, would it be more fun - I doubt it


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## rhyst (Feb 17, 2013)

Nice cars a litte expensive at the mo though


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## Deniance (Jun 28, 2008)

Saw another one in ikea under the lights, swirl city!


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## Mafoo (Jan 20, 2011)

One driving around the marina. They look very tempting in the flesh


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## Derekh929 (Aug 28, 2011)

andy665 said:


> Look at the reviews of the TRD car, the extra grip spoils the car
> 
> As Kerr says its not about ultimate grip or power or speed, its about the feel
> 
> ...


Hit the nail on the head exta grip would defeat what this car is about having done a drift experiece in the car it was very good , the feel and control reminded me a little on my e30 easily controlable and precision of feel from steering and the easy correction, a very mechanical feel to it instead of the feel you get with drive by wire know imho.
It is crying out for more midrange power though


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## Porkypig (Jun 20, 2012)

Rare as rocking horse poo. Only seen one BRZ and that is on a dealer forecourt gathering dust. Just too expensive for what they are I think.


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## rob_vrs (Jan 4, 2012)

Porkypig said:


> Rare as rocking horse poo. Only seen one BRZ and that is on a dealer forecourt gathering dust. Just too expensive for what they are I think.


Yes the depreciation seems high too


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## Blanco92 (Oct 17, 2013)

Haven't seen a single BRZ on the road yet, and only a handful of the GT86s.

I love the look of these. It's not everybody's taste but I wouldn't want it to be. I like cars with a bit of exclusivity so that's only a good thing.

Hoping to be in a position in a couple of years where I have to choose between a GT86 and a Nissan 350z/370z... That is going to be agonising.


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

Porkypig said:


> Rare as rocking horse poo. Only seen one BRZ and that is on a dealer forecourt gathering dust. Just too expensive for what they are I think.


Name another rear wheel drive car for £25k that has reasonable running costs and is comparable?

A 2.0 Mazda MX5 with a good bit less power almost costs the same with a tin top. You don't have the same power, it's smaller and has 2 seats, yet the Mazda has a great reputation and is rated as value for money.



rob_vrs said:


> Yes the depreciation seems high too


List price for the Toyota is £25k. Like nearly all cars you get a good discount on that.

The cheapest car on Autotrader is £19, 000 and 18 months old.

How much do you think your car will depreciate in 18 months? £10-12K?

The depreciation doesn't sound so bad now.


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## Deniance (Jun 28, 2008)

I dont get the compare to other rear wheel drive blurb, it just feels really overpriced, its nice but, i went to have a look at toyota , had a sit and a play, just feels cheap and plasticky, the timepiece is shocking, looks like a 7 pound casio. I had a test drive loved it, tried going fast round corners and stuff( im not senna). But on the long road back to the dealer, the salesman told me to floor it, i did, down to 3rd, zoooooom, he said fast isnt it, i said no!, its just not good enough, i know there are corners in the world but theres straight roads to

i really want one. But cant sign on the dotted line for that much cash and have something bug me all the way through ownership


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

Deniance said:


> I dont get the compare to other rear wheel drive blurb, it just feels really overpriced, its nice but, i went to have a look at toyota , had a sit and a play, just feels cheap and plasticky, the timepiece is shocking, looks like a 7 pound casio. I had a test drive loved it, tried going fast round corners and stuff( im not senna). But on the long road back to the dealer, the salesman told me to floor it, i did, down to 3rd, zoooooom, he said fast isnt it, i said no!, its just not good enough, i know there are corners in the world but theres straight roads to
> 
> i really want one. But cant sign on the dotted line for that much cash and have something bug me all the way through ownership


What else are you going to compare it against? Of course you have to compare it against other RWD cars.

To many people, there is no substitute for RWD. It means a lot for those who get it.

RWD cars cost more to make than FWD. That was one of the many reasons FWD cars became the norm many years ago.

Have a look at the price of cars today. See how many 200bhp cars you can find that are cheap. Start adding in LSDs and RWD then see where you end up.

How fast do you expect from 200hp?

Everyone says the Toyota is slow, yet everyone says Clio RS200s, Civic Type Rs etc are fast and the 0-100mph time for the GT86 is as quick.

I'm sorry that I just don't understand why people can't get their head around what the car actually is without being unfairly critical.


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## cbr6fs (Aug 15, 2011)

Thing is though Kerr facts and figures do not the whole story tell.

Driven a couple of GT86's now and really really really didn't like either.

The interior felt and looked cheap (even compared to my 94 MX5) on the road the handling was tough to get your head around with understeer being the main problem.
Although the 0-100mph figures might be similar to the Clio RS it doesn't "feel" as fast while driving it there.

Then there is that engine, buzy, sounds terrible and feels a million times worse.
I'm not a fan of rev happy motors, on the road i prefer a bit of torque but with the GT86 the motor and car just gives you no incentive to rev it.Rather than smile as the revs rise i found i was cringing.

For me personally i would never buy a new car, so the showroom prices are irrelevant.
I do know that for the money they sell used i could buy a E46 M3 and still have enough money left over for a Boxster for sunny day drives.

I put the GT86 in the same category as the smart coupe.
Obviously the GT86is in a different league in terms of performance, but both cars priced themselves out of the market.

I think that very few blokes under 40 would have the funds to buy a brand new £25+ car, yet it's not the sort of car blokes over 40 buy.
Most will have families and most would want something a bit more comfortable for day to day use.
So the car is aimed more at the 20-30 year ago group who care more about drifting and such, yet how many can afford to buy a £25+ car and even if they could how many would chose one over say a used E46 M3, 350z, Skyline, Supra etc etc etc.


It's a shame as it's failure sends a strong signal to Toyota and other car manf's that "folks don't want rwd", it's hardly likely companies will want to invest in new rwd platforms after seeing the GT86 fail.

To my mind Toyota needed to do 1 of 2 things, either:

1/ Drop the price and spec to £20k and have a cheap basic car
2/ Up the spec to make it a comfortable daily driver


Better still offer a bog basic cheap model and a more comfortable "options thrown at it" luxurious model and let people pick their choice.

It's fighting a losing battle though unfortunately as that motor is absolutely appalling no matter what spec the rest of the car is in.
Whoever spec'd that motor should be fired and all their assets taken over by Toyota to fund a new version with a better motor.


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

cbr6fs said:


> Thing is though Kerr facts and figures do not the whole story tell.
> 
> Driven a couple of GT86's now and really really really didn't like either.
> 
> ...


Plenty of younger guys have £25k to spend on a cars these days.

Look how many hot hatchbacks that are driven by younger guys. The vast majority and hot hatchbacks all cost around £25k these days. The Astra VXR is £27k for example.

The argument about buying new or used comes into buying any car. Someone has to buy the new ones to keep the used car market going.

Yes you could buy an E46 M3 and a Boxter for the price of a GT86, but the running costs of those two cars completely dwarf the cost of a GT86 by an absolute mile.

I can't say I felt much performance difference between the GT86 and what I remember a Civic type R to be. With most small NA engines you always have to work them hard to get the performance from them.

We've got a 2011 Mazda MX5 as well as my car, and it's a great car to drive. I'd still take a GT86 over it though.

How do we know it has failed? Who knows what the sales targets actually are? The Elise is a roaring success for Lotus, but how many of them do you see on a daily basis? How popular was the MR2 in its day? You never seem that many of this class of car.

I enjoyed it, and reading all the reviews from all the car car journalists, I don't think there is actually one negative review. Just how many did actually award it car of the year, or say it is the best fun modern car.

How can so many of the experts be wrong?


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## rob_vrs (Jan 4, 2012)

Kerr said:


> Plenty of younger guys have £25k to spend on a cars these days.
> 
> Look how many hot hatchbacks that are driven by younger guys. The vast majority and hot hatchbacks all cost around £25k these days. The Astra VXR is £27k for example.
> 
> ...


This is true as the offers available on new cars make running costs so much cheaper also the different finance packages also.

My octavia, yes a different car completely, comes with first years road tax paid, 3 years servicing and 3 years breakdown cover, then theres the warranty. These aren't massive savings but for someone like me who budgets there money on a monthly basis it is a massive saving and a older car would cost the same.


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## daydotz (May 15, 2011)

Seen a orange one a few times very smart


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## Porkypig (Jun 20, 2012)

Kerr said:


> Name another rear wheel drive car for £25k that has reasonable running costs and is comparable?
> 
> For me it's not an issue of what wheels are driven or even what it's performance is or isn't on par with but the car is just not that desirable and so at £25k plus it is over priced. It does nothing for me. It's not alone in the 'to expensive for it's own good' category IMO, not by a long chalk.


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## Porkypig (Jun 20, 2012)

I still think it's funny that the Toyota Racing Developments initials are TRD, sums the car up really... :lol::lol::lol:


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

Porkypig said:


> For me it's not an issue of what wheels are driven or even what it's performance is or isn't on par with but the car is just not that desirable and so at £25k plus it is over priced. It does nothing for me. It's not alone in the 'to expensive for it's own good' category IMO, not by a long chalk.


So what is a desirable car and what makes is desirable?

I'm sure for the vast majority of people they would buy a Lambo or Ferrari if costs wasn't an option.

Sadly for most people that will only be a pipe dream, so you have to settle for something far lower down the scale.

How can you judge it is too expensive, when there is no real like for like car that costs significantly less?

The vast majority of cars are overpriced these days in my opinion. £25,000 is the price of a Golf GT, BMW 1 series 120d, Mini Cooper Works, Renault Megane 1.6DCi CC etc etc.

It doesn't seem as if £25k actually goes that far these days. I agree that cars are too expensive these days.

I think the GT86 is the best looking car in the world. However there is one key word that every review by a credible driver uses once they drive it, and that is fun.

Fun is something that is missing from too many cars these days.


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## Derekh929 (Aug 28, 2011)

Porkypig said:


> Kerr said:
> 
> 
> > Name another rear wheel drive car for £25k that has reasonable running costs and is comparable?
> ...


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

Derekh929 said:


> Have you driven it?


I'll assume that was aimed at me?? Porkypig has messed up with his quote of me earlier. The error passes through all other quotes.

Yes. I thought it was very good.

Obviously nowhere near as fast as what I drive, but it never was going to be.

It is a hoot of a car and I have absolutely no idea why one little car seems to have upset so many people. It certainly gets too much unfair negative attention.


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## Rob_Quads (Jul 17, 2006)

I think its a nice looking car but personally would want more speed for the money. As some others have said yes when your driving it round the corners its great but you also want that foot down acceleration. Its what I love about my 350z. Yes it probably on a track was slower than the gt86 but when doing normal driving like pulling onto the motorway slip road and you want to get out of trouble being able to put your foot down is something I prefer.

In terms of money I think the 370z is similar ish money, slightly more but your getting a lot more power for that money.

Its not about upsetting people its just more people would want a straight line speed than corner speed.

As for young people having 25K - they normally don't but they can afford £300/£350 per month on a pcp.


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## cbr6fs (Aug 15, 2011)

Kerr said:


> Plenty of younger guys have £25k to spend on a cars these days.
> 
> Look how many hot hatchbacks that are driven by younger guys. The vast majority and hot hatchbacks all cost around £25k these days. The Astra VXR is £27k for example.


Problem there though is, how many of those younger guys bought the cars new?

In my experience older guys tend to buy them new as they have a good compromise between being a reasonable family car and fun.
They then tend to sell them and younger guys buy them used.

I do not know of 1 single under 30 i know in either the UK or Greece that can afford to spend £25k+ on a new car.
Most i know in that age range are just starting out buying houses or starting a family.



Kerr said:


> The argument about buying new or used comes into buying any car. Someone has to buy the new ones to keep the used car market going.


Agreed



Kerr said:


> Yes you could buy an E46 M3 and a Boxter for the price of a GT86, but the running costs of those two cars completely dwarf the cost of a GT86 by an absolute mile.


We are starting to get into the new v used discussion here and i think that that's a different chat for another thread on another day, as i say though personally i will never buy a new car.



Kerr said:


> I can't say I felt much performance difference between the GT86 and what I remember a Civic type R to be. With most small NA engines you always have to work them hard to get the performance from them.


Hardly the poster child for a nice engine though is it?
Again we're all different and like different things, personally i'd prefer to take the bus rather than drive say a CTR or a S2K for any distance.

Great fun for 10mins, but for me i get very tired very quickly of trying to keep the motor in it's torque band.

Even saying that i still prefer the S2K motor over the GT86 motor.
At least the S2K motor is fun for 10 mins, the GT86 doesn't even have that.



Kerr said:


> We've got a 2011 Mazda MX5 as well as my car, and it's a great car to drive. I'd still take a GT86 over it though.


I can understand that.
I've owned my 94 MX5 for around 10 years now and stock i find them very frustrating.
Again though at least the NC MX5 has some soul to it, it gives you a bit of encouragement to thrash it.

The GT86 just buzzes until your ears bleed 



Kerr said:


> How do we know it has failed? Who knows what the sales targets actually are? The Elise is a roaring success for Lotus, but how many of them do you see on a daily basis? How popular was the MR2 in its day? You never seem that many of this class of car.


True, but then the thread is titled "has anyone seen many gt86's around?"
Of which the resounding answer seems to be no



Kerr said:


> I enjoyed it, and reading all the reviews from all the car car journalists, I don't think there is actually one negative review. Just how many did actually award it car of the year, or say it is the best fun modern car.
> 
> How can so many of the experts be wrong?


Doesn't really mean anything though, people are not buying them so what a few heavily biased hacks think is pretty much void.

As i say personally i would not buy one, in fact if one was offered to me for a weekend trip away i'd refuse it i disliked the car THAT much.

But i do think it's a shame it's not been more of a sales success.
If it had sold like hot cakes then at least it would have given manufacturers an incentive to design other rwd cars that put the emphasis on "fun to drive"


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

cbr6fs said:


> Problem there though is, how many of those younger guys bought the cars new?
> 
> In my experience older guys tend to buy them new as they have a good compromise between being a reasonable family car and fun.
> They then tend to sell them and younger guys buy them used.
> ...


Lots of young guys where I live have £25k cars. Very common in Aberdeen for young guys to have expensive performance cars.

There is a lot of sub 30 year olds on here with cars that cost more than £25k.

We've still not determined it isn't selling what Toyota assumed. Small compromised sports cars never sell in huge numbers. Maybe they knew how many would sell.

You don't fall over Elises, 370Zs, Caymans or even Pug RCZs and it's FWD. Why are people assuming you are going to see lots of GT86s?

They aren't common, but they aren't exactly that rare. I see a few every week but can't remember the last 370Z I seen.

I'm not sure that there is an incentive for anyone to build more RWD cars. There is enough out there to fill most people's desires. People who want one often either buy a compromised weekend toy of make some sacrifices and buy something a bit bigger to use all the time.

I understand that everyone's requirements in a car are different and that will lead to different opinions.

My thoughts were the GT86 was supposed to be an entry level RWD car that ticks enough boxes to be an every day car.

Everybody that sees the car for what it is, enjoys it for what it is.

Not sure how we can go from the extremes from the vast majority of people rating it as one of the most fun cars out there, to others who seem to absolutely hate it.

Most of the people that hate it, have brought in points that really aren't relevant and they can't back up their points with justification.

I personally wouldn't buy one as I do enjoy a more relaxing journey and like more space, but I do applaud Toyota for trying something just that little bit different.


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## James Bagguley (Jul 13, 2013)

Still only seen one hereabouts


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## 182_Blue (Oct 25, 2005)

Seen a couple recently and weirdly both driven by 50 ish year old ladies with fake suntans !!


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## s29nta (Mar 9, 2013)

Seen two, both black quite like the look of them.


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## cbr6fs (Aug 15, 2011)

Kerr said:


> Lots of young guys where I live have £25k cars. Very common in Aberdeen for young guys to have expensive performance cars.
> 
> There is a lot of sub 30 year olds on here with cars that cost more than £25k.


Aberdeen isn't really a fair representation of the rest of the country though as there is a fair amount of oil money knocking around.

In the rest of the country, specifically in the Midlands where i am from there are very very few folks under 30 with 25k to spend on a car



Kerr said:


> We've still not determined it isn't selling what Toyota assumed. Small compromised sports cars never sell in huge numbers. Maybe they knew how many would sell.
> 
> You don't fall over Elises, 370Zs, Caymans or even Pug RCZs and it's FWD. Why are people assuming you are going to see lots of GT86s?
> 
> They aren't common, but they aren't exactly that rare. I see a few every week but can't remember the last 370Z I seen.


There are 2 Elise's in the old gals village (just outside Nottm), i will see a Cayman on pretty much every drive, 370z's are a bit more rare but i do see more than i've seen GT86's

Doesn't really matter what Toyota estimates the GT86 will sell like, fact is it doesn't sell as well as say MX5's.



Kerr said:


> I'm not sure that there is an incentive for anyone to build more RWD cars. There is enough out there to fill most people's desires. People who want one often either buy a compromised weekend toy of make some sacrifices and buy something a bit bigger to use all the time.
> 
> I understand that everyone's requirements in a car are different and that will lead to different opinions.


Not really.
How many manufacturers are making a rwd, sub £20k coupe, below 1000kg and between 140bhp and 200bhp?

In fact drop the price, how many rwd coupe's, below 1000kg, 140bhp+ are there available new right now?
How many of those are usable daily?



Kerr said:


> My thoughts were the GT86 was supposed to be an entry level RWD car that ticks enough boxes to be an every day car.


£25k is NOT and entry level price though
If they started at say £18k Toyota wouldn't be able to make them fast enough.



Kerr said:


> Everybody that sees the car for what it is, enjoys it for what it is.
> 
> Not sure how we can go from the extremes from the vast majority of people rating it as one of the most fun cars out there, to others who seem to absolutely hate it.


First thing i'd do is check to see what they have owned and driven previously.
Jump from a Micra into a GT86 and of course it's going to feel like a Ferrari.
Jump from a E46 M3 or even a Megane 225 into a GT86 and it's going to feel a LOT different.

Second thing to do is ask how long they drove the car for, where did they drive it and how.
A tootle to the local school run isn't the same as stretching it's legs on a favourite B-road.
Likewise a 10 min drive round the block isn't really going to show many of the annoying things a car has.

I'll use the S2K as a example.
A good mate wanted one and asked my opinion, i gave him the contact details of another mate of mine and told him to give him a call to sort out a drive.
Few weeks later i saw S2K mate and he knew nothing, as he hadn't called him.
Fast forward another 3 months and he'd been out and bought one, 6 weeks into ownership he had it up for sale.
Car was good fun to drive in a 20min test drive, the hour long commute over A-roads quickly got boring though.

Might seem a bit extreme but IMO if you haven't driven a car for at least 1 hour you really do not know it.



Kerr said:


> Most of the people that hate it, have brought in points that really aren't relevant and they can't back up their points with justification.


How is having a terrible buzzy gutless engine not relevant?
150 ft/lb of torque pulling 1200kg NEEDS a lot of revs and the motor just doesn't feel good being rev'd



Kerr said:


> I personally wouldn't buy one as I do enjoy a more relaxing journey and like more space, but I do applaud Toyota for trying something just that little bit different.


So you don't like it well enough enough to buy one, but you'll sit a complain when anyone points out the bits they don't like about the car :lol:


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

cbr6fs said:


> Aberdeen isn't really a fair representation of the rest of the country though as there is a fair amount of oil money knocking around.
> 
> In the rest of the country, specifically in the Midlands where i am from there are very very few folks under 30 with 25k to spend on a car
> 
> ...


It's all in ratio. Obviously Aberdeen has far more wealthy people per head of population anywhere in the UK outside London. Yes a lot of young guys have bigger disposable income than most places. So that does equate to more nice cars. Audi is the standard default, everyone has one.

You aren't going to see many RWD cars at that price bracket. Even basic Caterhams are heading north on your lower budget.

As I said before, one of the main reasons for manufacturers heading down the FWD route many years ago was cost. RWD cars are more expensive to produce.

The MX5 is an iconic car that has built its reputation for years. They are also considerably cheaper to buy than GT86s even though list prices are similar.

Demand drives prices and our MX5 Kendo was bought at 16 months old and cost £12,000. A 18 month old GT86 costs £19,000.

So supply and demand has driven a bigger gap between the GT86 and MX5 between list prices and future values.

When I say entry level, I mean entry level to RWD. RWD cars cost more and you don't have much option of buying new outwith the MX5 before you look at very compromised cars. Brilliant fun, but not every day cars.

My theory has always been you learn some car craft in an old banger. You progress up the FWD ladder and when you are a competent driver, you move into the RWD market. This is where I see the GT86.

My avatar is just for banter as many FWD cars are a hoot. However you'll never replicate the feel and fun of a RWD car. However if you can't drive, a RWD car will soon highlight your weaknesses.

I drive about the city more often than not. Most of the time I could drive a 1.0 car at the same pace that I'd ever need. The GT86 does that with no issues at all. It feels like an everyday car. It does like to be thrown about too. It covers both scenarios and ticks the boxes for many people's requirements.

The S2000 is an iconic car for many. Loads of people adore that car for what it is and I don't think anyone is caught out by it. Well, apart from your mate.

A lot of serious dirvers have always voiced the opinion the 200BHP is enough for the real world. 400BHP and you are on the wrong side of the law in 6 seconds, or just a couple of seconds if you are moving.

It's a bit like go-karting. You can get mentally fast go-karts that do 140MPH, however the vast majority of people have an absolute blast at their local kart centre with the karts that do 35MPH.

Yes I don't want to buy one. As per my opinion I rate the car as an entry level RWD car. I'm not prepared to give up 3.0l of 6 cylinder twin turbo sweetness to go back to a 4 pot NA car.

I'm not the target audience.


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## 182_Blue (Oct 25, 2005)

Could people try not to quote the whole of somebody's post when they are as long as some of these are?


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## Derekh929 (Aug 28, 2011)

Shaun said:


> Seen a couple recently and weirdly both driven by 50 ish year old ladies with fake suntans !!


So is it a stepping stone to SLK lol


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## cbr6fs (Aug 15, 2011)

> As I said before, one of the main reasons for manufacturers heading down the FWD route many years ago was cost. RWD cars are more expensive to produce.


Do you have any evidence of this?

Just doesn't ring true to me, especially considering the amount of cheap rwd cars that are on offer, e.g. Smart for2/coupe, MX5 and most American manufactured cars.



> My theory has always been you learn some car craft in an old banger. You progress up the FWD ladder and when you are a competent driver, you move into the RWD market. This is where I see the GT86.


I don't see how driving a fwd car is any preparation for driving a rwd car later.
When the kids start driving i'll teach them in the MX5, they've already had a play in a empty car parks and once on the track.
Besides most rwd cars these days have traction and stability control coming out of their ears so it's not like the old days where we used to throw a couple of bags of cement in the boots of our MKII Escorts to try and find some grip in winter.

40 years ago most the cars on the road where rwd, no traction control and no ABS, still folks managed to survive, even the bad drivers.



> My avatar is just for banter as many FWD cars are a hoot. However you'll never replicate the feel and fun of a RWD car. However if you can't drive, a RWD car will soon highlight your weaknesses.


Again do you have any evidence of this?

My old gal isn't exactly Senna when it comes to driving, but she's had many rwd cars over the years, from Truimph 2500's to MX5's, non with any electronic "driver aids" yet she's never had a problem.

My Mrs had never driven a rwd car before i bought the MX5, even with over 240bhp, no traction control, no ABS, roads that make skating rinks seem like a traction fest she still hasn't had any problems in the last 10 years.

Have you driven the old gen Megane 225 on the track?

It oversteers for France pretty much at a whim.
Granted lift off oversteer is not as much fun as power drifting around a corner, but then if you want a drift hack then a brand new £25+ GT86 is probably not the car for you either.



> I drive about the city more often than not. Most of the time I could drive a 1.0 car at the same pace that I'd ever need. The GT86 does that with no issues at all. It feels like an everyday car. It does like to be thrown about too. It covers both scenarios and ticks the boxes for many people's requirements.


I to spend a lot of time driving round a city (Athens) so i bought a used Smart that doesn't have a single panel that wasn't scratched of dented.

Both my A3 and the MX5 have also served as city cars as well, i don't see how that would invite buyers though.



> The S2000 is an iconic car for many. Loads of people adore that car for what it is and I don't think anyone is caught out by it. Well, apart from your mate.


Have you driven a S2K?

The MKI was a right mare to drive, really snappy handling and many owners were "caught out by it"
The MKII was better but still it bit



> A lot of serious dirvers have always voiced the opinion the 200BHP is enough for the real world. 400BHP and you are on the wrong side of the law in 6 seconds, or just a couple of seconds if you are moving.


Too much of a generalisation to be of any use.

200bhp in a well geared sub 1000kg car will be a LOT of fun.
200bhp in a 2600kg 4x4 would be adequate but hardly fun on a challenging road.

Then there is the chassis to consider, throw 200bhp into say a Smart for2 and it'd scare the life out of you, yet at 200bhp i still felt my MX5 would feel better with a little more power.



> Yes I don't want to buy one. As per my opinion I rate the car as an entry level RWD car. I'm not prepared to give up 3.0l of 6 cylinder twin turbo sweetness to go back to a 4 pot NA car.


It does seem to me that you are being a bit hypocritical here.

You berate peoples negative opinions and reasons for not wanting to buy the car, yet admit that you wouldn't buy one either.

You argue that the pricing is right, yet i'm pretty sure if the GT86 was available when your Mrs bought the 5 and it was the same price you would have tried to sway her buying opinion towards the GT86.

The biggest problem for me is with the motor is not the bhp it's the torque

Your Mrs's MX5 has 188Nm and weighs a noggin over 1100kg
The GT86 has 205Nm and weighs a noggin over 1200kg

More importantly the peak torque on the GT86 is only available after 6400rpm, on your Mrs's MX5 the peak torque is available at 5000rpm

On something like the S2K (208Nm at 7500rpm) at least the motor has a enough soul about it to encourage you to rev it's nuts off.
With the GT86 it just buzzes away like a sewing machine.

Not even a loud exhaust helps either as it just gives it a louder soulless buzz.


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## Blueberry (Aug 10, 2007)

I've never owned a RWD car and probably never will. I've seen too many of these stuck in snow or skating around on a slightly icy road, to totally put me off.


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

Blueberry said:


> I've never owned a RWD car and probably never will. I've seen too many of these stuck in snow or skating around on a slightly icy road, to totally put me off.


You put on snow tyres and they are fine. We don't get that much snow over a year anyways.

Evem FWD cars with wide low profile tyres are awful in the snow.


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

cbr6fs said:


> Do you have any evidence of this?
> 
> Just doesn't ring true to me, especially considering the amount of cheap rwd cars that are on offer, e.g. Smart for2/coupe, MX5 and most American manufactured cars.
> 
> ...


We're going round in circles here.

The little Smart is RWD because the engine is in the back. It would be silly to have the engine in the back and drive the front wheels. It isn't what you'd call cheap either. They start at almost £10,000 for a very small and basic car which people have regularly said is very expensive for what they are.

The Mazda MX5 starts at £19,000 for a basic spec car with 125bhp. If you want the tin roof and a 2.0 engine you are over £23,000 and getting close to the price of the GT86.

Not sure how people can be critical of the GT86 being expensive and the MX5 being cheap when you start comparing cars of a similar level. When you do start doing that you start getting prices that are very similar. Also remember one is a dedicated 2 seater car and the other does have 2 little rear seats. One has 160bhp and the other 200. It still isn't equal.

Many of the American cars are FWD. Even many with pretty big engines up front. You get all the usual mainstream manufacturers making lots of cheaper FWD cars before higher up their range and sportier cars move over to RWD.

The US car market is dominated by cheaper, better quality Japanese imports these days.

Not sure the US market is a fair reflection of the car world. Many of their cars are still very backwards in quality and technology compared to our cars.

What proof do you want about the costs? I'm not really sure why you don't think that is correct. Just Google it and you will see that really is the case without any argument.

The GT86 isn't a track car. It is a road car. That's the entire point of it.

I'm not being hypocritical at all. I appreciate the GT86 for what it is, but it doesn't suit my needs. My car isn't in the same category as a GT86.

As for the rest, we're going way off topic and taking things out of context. We'll just leave it there.


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## 182_Blue (Oct 25, 2005)

I will ask again, will people please not quote such long posts in their replies.


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## Blueberry (Aug 10, 2007)

Kerr said:


> You put on snow tyres and they are fine. We don't get that much snow over a year anyways.
> 
> Evem FWD cars with wide low profile tyres are awful in the snow.


So why don't ALL RWD drivers do that instead of skating around and skidding everywhere. My car has wide low profile tyres and I've not had problems driving in the snow. Apart from the snow becoming compacted in the wheel arches.


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

Blueberry said:


> So why don't ALL RWD drivers do that instead of skating around and skidding everywhere. My car has wide low profile tyres and I've not had problems driving in the snow. Apart from the snow becoming compacted in the wheel arches.


Remember getting moving is only half of driving in the snow. If you can't get enough drive, you also don't have the grip to stop either. All cars have that problem.

I've seen enough FWD cars stuck to suggest they need snow tyres too. I had an Insignia with 19" wheels with 255 wide tyres that was every bit as bad as the BMW in the snow.

For most people it purely comes down to cost and inconvenience.

I'd be over £1000 for snow tyres and have to have somewhere to store 4 huge tyres safely.

I've had the BMW for 3 years and only got stuck in my old flat car park. The private car park was deep in snow and completely untreated. Never once have I been stuck on a road.

You also have to consider we don't get anywhere near as much snow as people seem to think we do.

It just seems to be a recent thing that drivers get hysterical at the thought of snow


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## Kriminal (Jan 11, 2007)

Blueberry said:


> *So why don't ALL RWD drivers do that instead of skating around and skidding everywhere*. My car has wide low profile tyres and I've not had problems driving in the snow. Apart from the snow becoming compacted in the wheel arches.


^ uneducated, in a word. :thumb:


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## Derekh929 (Aug 28, 2011)

Blueberry said:


> So why don't ALL RWD drivers do that instead of skating around and skidding everywhere. My car has wide low profile tyres and I've not had problems driving in the snow. Apart from the snow becoming compacted in the wheel arches.


I have gone Sking in Scotland since the 80's yes I'm that old :lol: I have used RWD nearly all the time away back then Opel Manta GTE , e30 325i e46 , e90 , never been stuck once on the road just the car park. Drive within the limits of your car and let people past, never had winters but wish I had sometimes tbo
The secret is time wait till your road is clear and use the low down power to select high gear and very very smoth input and sometimes some good old fashioned opisite lock :thumb:


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## Deniance (Jun 28, 2008)

Cheapest gt86 2nd hand is £17500, so its lost 7000 in a year? Is that normal loss or to be expected?


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

Deniance said:


> Cheapest gt86 2nd hand is £17500, so its lost 7000 in a year? Is that normal loss or to be expected?


The cheapest on Autotrader is £18.5 for an 12 plate. So 18 months old.

If a car retains 50% of its value after 3 years, that is pretty good. Intial depreciation over the first few months/year, is always the highest.

If you didn't want this and chose a hot hatch instead, a Focus ST3 cost £26k new and is worth £18 after 1 year.

An Astra VXR is £27k new and a 1 year old one can be bought for £18k.

So it's doing better than these desirable hot hatches.


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## Starbuck88 (Nov 12, 2013)

You need to remember that VAT disappears initially so that's where a good chunk goes, 20% immediately as you sign the paperwork :doublesho

All newer cars depreciate it's a fact of life, if you want a car that's new or nearly new you have to just take it on the chin, if you can pay the price for the car and you love it...forget about depreciation.


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## JMorty (Apr 25, 2011)

Saw 3 of these in about 90 mins. All but one had the stripes...which I am not a fan of tbh...


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