# Thickness of coating



## orion613719 (May 12, 2009)

I got some special coating from my friend, he talk me need to make 2um thickness at least.

I use the normal way to apply, cotton pad and microfiber cloth.
Apply many many layers...
But always can not make the results as he said.
So I take the panel to check if something on it.

this machine can measure the thickness of coating on the panel. 









Unfortunately, can't find anything on it.









but it already had many nano coating features.
I want the 100% efficacy that like my friend say.
So, I take the panel to my friend to help coat it.
their company had the professional coating machine.

right side had coating









left side had coating









there are very thin coating on the panel.
it can full show the coating performance now.
you can check the testing video in my youtube channel
https://www.youtube.com/user/orion613719
many amazing effect

how about the thickness of coating?
let us check it.
we already can see somthing on it.
left side no coating, same as apply by hand.

















the thickness of the coating is 4um!









conclusion:
1. if you want to get a 100% effect of a coating, you must let it had 2um thickness at least.
2. it is very difficult to build a um film by hand, if you don't wipe off, maybe...


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## sm81 (May 14, 2011)

Is this your opinion or pure fact? What about Opticoat 2microm thick claims?


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## orion613719 (May 12, 2009)

sm81 said:


> Is this your opinion or pure fact? What about Opticoat 2microm thick claims?


this is measure by machine, not my thinking...
of course, if you apply one coating and don't wipe off it, it can be.
MF take out most coating


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## sm81 (May 14, 2011)

But why you need thick layer of it? If you are not trying to achieve swirl resistance coating?


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## orion613719 (May 12, 2009)

sm81 said:


> But why you need thick layer of it? If you are not trying to achieve swirl resistance coating?


because same coating will had different performance

if this coating apply by hand and wipe off, it can't do this.
must have enought thickness


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## Goodfella36 (Jul 21, 2009)

Hi Orion 

Good to see you posting again been a while another interesting post as always I think Orion is one of the most experienced people on DW with coatings.


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## orion613719 (May 12, 2009)

Goodfella36 said:


> Hi Orion
> 
> Good to see you posting again been a while another interesting post as always I think Orion is one of the most experienced people on DW with coatings.


Long time no see la~
Yes, no post very long time.
Very busy now…
This is very interesting thing for me, share to you all, haha


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## -Raven- (Aug 26, 2010)

sm81 said:


> Is this your opinion or pure fact? What about Opticoat 2microm thick claims?


Measure it, I bet you don't get anything lol! 

It takes 1ml of coating to cover 1m squared of paint 1um thick, not accounting for any solvent evaporation etc. How much paint on a car, and how much coating do people use to coat a whole car, and how much solvent content in the coating? I guarantee you they won't be getting anywhere near 2um for a layer!!!


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## lowejackson (Feb 23, 2006)

I cannot pretend to understand all this stuff but it does look very impressive. I assume this coating is sprayed on, is this done with a traditional paint spraying gun or in some other wax. Is there any advantage in applying more than 2 um of coating?


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## orion613719 (May 12, 2009)

lowejackson said:


> I cannot pretend to understand all this stuff but it does look very impressive. I assume this coating is sprayed on, is this done with a traditional paint spraying gun or in some other wax. Is there any advantage in applying more than 2 um of coating?


yes, spray on, but not traditional paint spraying gun, they had one precision coating machine which can spray same as the printer.
And if the film over 4um will have some another problems, they big change the outward.
so, must control it "print" 2~4um film on the surface.

if it's too thin then it don't do it's job properly cause of the coating not uniform, structure is too weak or something(oil) bring out by coating from the paint to reduce the performance.
As their experience, 2~4um is best, no change outward too much, had full performance of coating.

sorry, my English is not so good, hope you can understand what I mean...


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## Baracuda (Apr 28, 2008)

Orion, you have some of the most amazing posts i have ever seen since joining in 2008, i remember the one with the lamborghini aventador coating...

What you guys do there is mind blowing ! I wish we could get some of the technology here in EU.

Thank you.


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## orion613719 (May 12, 2009)

Baracuda said:


> Orion, you have some of the most amazing posts i have ever seen since joining in 2008, i remember the one with the lamborghini aventador coating...
> 
> What you guys do there is mind blowing ! I wish we could get some of the technology here in EU.
> 
> Thank you.


we still continue to do that coat, very good performance :thumb:


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## orion613719 (May 12, 2009)

lowejackson said:


> I cannot pretend to understand all this stuff but it does look very impressive. I assume this coating is sprayed on, is this done with a traditional paint spraying gun or in some other wax. Is there any advantage in applying more than 2 um of coating?


ok, i got the spraying machine picture from my friend.










very expensive! :doublesho


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## sm81 (May 14, 2011)

-Raven- said:


> Measure it, I bet you don't get anything lol!
> 
> It takes 1ml of coating to cover 1m squared of paint 1um thick, not accounting for any solvent evaporation etc. How much paint on a car, and how much coating do people use to coat a whole car, and how much solvent content in the coating? I guarantee you they won't be getting anywhere near 2um for a layer!!!


So why manufacturer are allow to give us totally false information about coating thickness? 1-10micro claims:wall:
Is it possible to achieve any kind of proper thickness in these "normal" coatings like Opticoat, Cquartz, Sonax, ADS


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## waqasr (Oct 22, 2011)

This is interesting. I have always wondered about this actually, that how when applying a coating and removing it so quickly actually adds a measurable thickness.


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## lowejackson (Feb 23, 2006)

orion613719 said:


> ok, i got the spraying machine picture from my friend.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Is it possible to produce a system which would allow the coating to be applied to large items like car panels


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## PIRHONEY (Aug 11, 2009)

^ Nissan are doing this aren't they??


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## -Raven- (Aug 26, 2010)

sm81 said:


> So why manufacturer are allow to give us totally false information about coating thickness? 1-10micro claims:wall:
> Is it possible to achieve any kind of proper thickness in these "normal" coatings like Opticoat, Cquartz, Sonax, ADS


Not just thickness, it's all aspects like durability, hardness, etc.

You soon learn that most products don't live up to the claims, which is why I tend to laugh at the marketing from the UK / western rebottlers etc.

Ultra durable this, 9H that, 10um thick, blah blah blah. The Asians seem much more realistic.

This one Asian coating I have always makes me laugh! How do you think the UK brands would market this one? 










Now is it possible to get any kind of proper thickness? I take this as meaning measurable thickness. Possible? Yes. Practical? No way! Maybe Orion can share how many coats he did and how much coating he went through with his test panel to achieve 4um thickness, that would be seriously interesting to find out!


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## Baracuda (Apr 28, 2008)

I don't know about coatings but there was an older topic several years ago about wax layering and they managed to measure the thickness and also the fact that you can do about 3 layers maximum. After that the layer was not sustainable.

Perhaps someone can find it, to see what kind of machinery they used to measure.


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## orion613719 (May 12, 2009)

PIRHONEY said:


> ^ Nissan are doing this aren't they??
> 
> 2015 Nissan Note Self-Cleaning Nano Paint - YouTube


do you find that they change the color and gloss of original surface?
this product appear many years already.

first they spray on the satellite dish to prevent the too much snow crushed it.
I forget the name, i bought one many years ago, after wash the surface, the SHP effect gone.






same as one Japen glass coating, zerowipe, yes, really! No need to wipe and can't wipe.


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## orion613719 (May 12, 2009)

Baracuda said:


> I don't know about coatings but there was an older topic several years ago about wax layering and they managed to measure the thickness and also the fact that you can do about 3 layers maximum. After that the layer was not sustainable.
> 
> Perhaps someone can find it, to see what kind of machinery they used to measure.


he use SEM(Scanning Electron Microscope), coat the gold on the surface, than scan it.
I use that machine is Laser SEM

you can find them in WIKI.


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## orion613719 (May 12, 2009)

lowejackson said:


> Is it possible to produce a system which would allow the coating to be applied to large items like car panels





-Raven- said:


> Maybe Orion can share how many coats he did and how much coating he went through with his test panel to achieve 4um thickness, that would be seriously interesting to find out!


it's possible now.
I study that machine to know how it work few weeks.
and doing many testing in my office. success making the nozzle.
I made a prototype gun already, and use it spray two cars, The coating is normal coating CQ, OPT, Modesta, ceramic pro...etc
Very very amazing result compare with application by hand.
OK, that is another topic, haha

anyway, to make a micron film by hand is very difficult. almost is impossible
most test picture is fake, paint's thickness is different everywhere.
When you use thickness meter to check, the value is different every time.
in this condition, how to use that to check so small value.
thickness meter's tolerance also is too big, 3%


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## lowejackson (Feb 23, 2006)

orion613719 said:


> .....I made a prototype gun already, and use it spray two cars, The coating is normal coating CQ, OPT, Modesta, ceramic pro...etc
> Very very amazing result compare with application by hand.
> OK, that is another topic, haha.......


Sounds very interesting. I am assuming a spray gun would be more consistent in laying down an even coat, if so, would this improve the gloss


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## blake_jl (Apr 26, 2008)

waqasr said:


> This is interesting. I have always wondered about this actually, that how when applying a coating and removing it so quickly actually adds a measurable thickness.


Opti-Coat was actually designed to be applied, left for a minute or so and then carefully level out any remaining high spots with the applicator. You don't touch areas that don't need to be.

Most people don't apply this way though because it's more difficult and time consuming, so they do a complete wipe off which will leave a far thinner coating.

Opti-Coat's claims of 1-2 microns are based on the correct method and the results achieved in the lab and measured correctly as per the OP of this thread.

Opti-Coat 2.0 is also thinner than this as the resin content is far lower too. It also reacts a lot slower, so there's more chance of removing it when you touch it whereas Pro reacts very quickly.

More and more professionals are now spraying Opti-Coat Pro instead. The results from this would be above the manufacturers claims and they are using about 40cc


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## -Raven- (Aug 26, 2010)

blake_jl said:


> More and more professionals are now spraying Opti-Coat Pro instead. The results from this would be above the manufacturers claims and they are using about 40cc


40cc of diluted product. They aren't using 2 tubes to coat a car.

Everyone seems to dilute Opticoat down with Xylene to about 1/3 - 1/2 strength for spraying. Also over 1/3 loss to atmosphere just by spraying with a HVLP gun.


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## blake_jl (Apr 26, 2008)

-Raven- said:


> 40cc of diluted product. They aren't using 2 tubes to coat a car.


You are talking about what you've seen in the USA. I'm talking about what is being done in your backyard.

We supply 40cc tubes of Opti-Coat Pro. You are correct they dilute 2 parts OC with 1 part thinner.


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## Goodfella36 (Jul 21, 2009)

-Raven- said:


> 40cc of diluted product. They aren't using 2 tubes to coat a car.
> 
> Everyone seems to dilute Opticoat down with Xylene to about 1/3 - 1/2 strength for spraying. Also over 1/3 loss to atmosphere just by spraying with a HVLP gun.


Interesting I have just spent some money and ordered a certain type of sprayer to spray Opti-Coat no dilution but fine atomization no idea if it will work or how much I will use but if you don't try these things someone has to test :thumb:

P.S Raven was easy to use.


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## orion613719 (May 12, 2009)

*Visible coating on paint*

After many study and testing, almost finish the research:
*how to apply a uniform and measurable coating on the car*









this area around 30X45cm , use 0.7 ml coating to spray.
the rainbow can remove by dispersant, I think not difficult... 
we can see the rainbow film in our life, many protect film also had that.

use the super glue test the surface, it's amazing! :thumb:


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## -Raven- (Aug 26, 2010)

Not even superglue sticks! Very nice! 

So what is the rainbow effect from? The carrier used in the coating?


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## orion613719 (May 12, 2009)

-Raven- said:


> Not even superglue sticks! Very nice!
> 
> So what is the rainbow effect from? The carrier used in the coating?


of course, must use carrier. the 0.7ml is include the carrier.
the rainbow come from the carrier evaporate, let the coating distribute not enought.








need to improve the YL, need smaller.


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## fatdazza (Dec 29, 2010)

Isn't the rainbow effect due to the thickness of the coating or the thickness of the dispersant (solvent)? 

Where the thickness of the coating or the thickness of the dispersant is close to the thickness of the wavelength of light, a rainbow effect will occur. 

So the thickness where the rainbow occurs is 400 to 700 nano metres.

If the rainbow effect is due to the solvent, then once the solvent evaporates, the rainbow should disappear. If once the solvent has disappeared the rainbow is still there, then it is due to the coating and the only way to deal with it would be to add or take away from the coating.


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## orion613719 (May 12, 2009)

fatdazza said:


> Isn't the rainbow effect due to the thickness of the coating or the thickness of the dispersant (solvent)?
> 
> Where the thickness of the coating or the thickness of the dispersant is close to the thickness of the wavelength of light, a rainbow effect will occur.
> 
> ...


the thickness is arround 2um, I had tested by SEM before.
we think it's dispersant issue. the coating in the picture already dry.

the nano material maybe reunite, no disperse enought.
check the below picture, many agglomerate on the surface.









they like a triangular prism









I order some dispersant to try next week, hope can solve this problem.
thanks for your kindly reply, if you had more idea, I'm all ears! :thumb:


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## orion613719 (May 12, 2009)

receive some kinds of dispersant this week, solved the rainbow finally. :thumb:


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## irsankao (Jun 2, 2010)

Hey Orion,
Welcome back! I always enjoy your researches though sometimes I can't digest it, very technical *eyes rolling*


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## Adot (Sep 14, 2014)

Hi Orion 

Some really good stuff you've done there, I've learnt a lot.
Next time I coat a car I'll definitely put a whole bottle on! :driver:


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## -Raven- (Aug 26, 2010)

Adot said:


> Hi Orion
> 
> Some really good stuff you've done there, I've learnt a lot.
> Next time I coat a car I'll definitely put a whole bottle on! :driver:


Well that's what a whole bottle is for!


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