# DI Vessels and Resin



## LorenzoT (Jan 26, 2013)

Hi everyone :wave:,

I’ve been searching the forum for a few days, but I can’t find the answer to my questions about DI vessels and resin. 

I live in Norfolk where the water is very hard. My TDS meter says the water is 350 PPM!

I’ve bought two 11litre DI vessels because I’ve guessed that there’s little chance that 350 PPM will come out pure enough after one vessel, so the second DI vessel should polish off what comes out of the first vessel (I hope). I probably could have got a smaller second vessel, but they came as a pair. 

I have a number of questions that I couldn’t find answers to in my research:

1. How much deionised water do you think I’ll produce from the resin in two 11l vessels before the PPM starts to creep up? The second vessel will be working less hard than the first, so that resin should last longer. I’m just curious, so a rough estimate is all I’m after.

2. I was just going to fill buckets of deionised water as and when I need it, so the vessels will be used sparingly. Is it ok for the vessels to sit unused for a while and what’s the best way to ensure the resin doesn’t spoil (if it does). I assume I can leave the vessels full of water from using them and they’ll be ok in a dark cool place?

3. Is it best to have those hozelock connectors that stop water coming out when they are disconnected? i.e. The end that goes into the tap and the end that comes out of the final vessel, so when you’re finished and disconnect everything your precious deionised water doesn’t come flooding out of the vessels. 

DI :newbie:

Thanks,

Lawrence


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## JoeyJoeJo (Jan 3, 2014)

Raceglaze linked to a calculator in a thread previously

http://morethanpolish.co.uk/maxi-filter-refillable-long-life-water-filter-system.asp

And I asked about shelf life here too
https://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=420874&page=3


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## LorenzoT (Jan 26, 2013)

JoeyJoeJo said:


> Raceglaze linked to a calculator in a thread previously
> 
> http://morethanpolish.co.uk/maxi-filter-refillable-long-life-water-filter-system.asp
> 
> ...


That's perfect, thank you :thumb:


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## RaceGlazer (Jan 10, 2007)

Hi

Pointless buying 2 vessels as 0ppm water will come out of the first one, until resin starts to fail. Yes, a second vessel will then tidy that water up at the point of minimal dissolved solids, but once resin fully fails ( and you will have no way of knowing as you'll be watching what comes out of vessel 2) the first vessel will throw out toxic water to v2 which will be destroyed very quickly. So just use one vessel.

See our calculator to get some idea of what you should get, though its based on our more economic 7 and 14L vessels. 

Resin needs water through it every 2 weeks when its warm to prevent bacteria growing in the warm wet resin bed. So you'd be best using the filter when you need it rather than stockpiling water. 

Once mains is turned off you won't get any water coming out, due to gravity, and as long as you make sure the open end of the hose has no pressured flow after the tap goes off you wont see the hose empty under pressure, though it will still under gravity, to some extent, unless you ensure the end of the hose is higher than the vessel outlet point. But if you do put a simple sprinkler or similar on there then thats secure. 

Hope that helps


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## LorenzoT (Jan 26, 2013)

RaceGlazer said:


> Hi
> 
> Pointless buying 2 vessels as 0ppm water will come out of the first one, until resin starts to fail. Yes, a second vessel will then tidy that water up at the point of minimal dissolved solids, but once resin fully fails ( and you will have no way of knowing as you'll be watching what comes out of vessel 2) the first vessel will throw out toxic water to v2 which will be destroyed very quickly. So just use one vessel.
> 
> ...


Thanks. The second vessel point is really helpful. I was about to hook two vessels together, so that saves me a job. I was planning on periodically checking what was coming out of vessel 1 into vessel 2, so saves me that hassle too.

I saw a video of a guy using one big vessel and then when the PPM started to go up, he'd put a smaller vessel with new resin after the first one. That saved him chucking the big vessel resin away straightaway because the small one would bring it down again and extend the usage of the resin in the big vessel.

Anyway, I'll try one vessel and see how I get on.

Do I just fill up the vessel as slow as possible, so the water that comes out is pure? I'm not planning on putting it through my PW or anything. I'm just going to fill up buckets and rinse my car at the end of the washing process with a mitt. I've had good results with this with the water I was buying and it doesn't use much water.


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## Andy from Sandy (May 6, 2011)

The vessel should have an in and an out. The water flows through at the rate the supply puts it in.


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## GeeWhizRS (Nov 1, 2019)

I think the window cleaners tend to use 2 DI vessels in series rather than one big one. I haven't wasted much brain power on it but I think the idea is thus... if you have 1 vessel (say a 25L one), once the TDS level from the vessel reads say 10 (for the sake of argument), you will start getting water spots and you need to replace all 25L of resin. But, there is still life left in that resin. So alternatively, if you use two smaller vessels (say 2x11L), once you notice the TDS going say to 10 out of the 2nd vessel, you replace the resin in the 1st vessel (which must be spent), and then rotate the vessels so the 2nd is now the 1st and outputting 10 TDS to the freshly refilled 2nd vessel. That way, you get more use out of the resin. At least, that's my understanding. Not really feasible for me but I suppose if you don't need to lug your vessel(s) about it makes a bit of sense.


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## bildo (Mar 29, 2008)

LorenzoT said:


> Thanks. The second vessel point is really helpful. I was about to hook two vessels together, so that saves me a job. I was planning on periodically checking what was coming out of vessel 1 into vessel 2, so saves me that hassle too.
> 
> I saw a video of a guy using one big vessel and then when the PPM started to go up, he'd put a smaller vessel with new resin after the first one. That saved him chucking the big vessel resin away straightaway because the small one would bring it down again and extend the usage of the resin in the big vessel.
> 
> ...


Genuine question, but why would you want to use a mitt to rinse? For me, using a hose is a much better option, as it's less contact on the paintwork.


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## LorenzoT (Jan 26, 2013)

bildo said:


> Genuine question, but why would you want to use a mitt to rinse? For me, using a hose is a much better option, as it's less contact on the paintwork.


Good point :thumb:. I was happy all the dirt was off and I used less deionised water (which I was buying) to cover all the panels. I was getting no dirt off the mitt (from what I could see) for my 2B rinse with deionised water. Perhaps I should hook up the hose now I'm going to be making my own water and it's relatively cheap after buying all the kit.

I also tried using a pressurised container like the weed killer ones to apply the rinse stage, but I had unsatisfactory results. I was just trying to save how much water I used and the mitt had the best result.


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## Andy from Sandy (May 6, 2011)

Many years ago I would use a watering can with a rose fitted. It did a very good job.


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## bildo (Mar 29, 2008)

LorenzoT said:


> Good point :thumb:. I was happy all the dirt was off and I used less deionised water (which I was buying) to cover all the panels. I was getting no dirt off the mitt (from what I could see) for my 2B rinse with deionised water. Perhaps I should hook up the hose now I'm going to be making my own water and it's relatively cheap after buying all the kit.
> 
> I also tried using a pressurised container like the weed killer ones to apply the rinse stage, but I had unsatisfactory results. I was just trying to save how much water I used and the mitt had the best result.


It's typically recommended to rinse the car down with your normal water to get rid of the suds etc after washing, and then for the final rinse, to use the vessel water to quickly rinse down the car.

I think you may be overthinking it a tad, as all you really want to do is ensure that you have no suds/hard water left on the car, which a good open-ended hose rinse would do.

I do think that the watering can idea could be decent, but for me it would just be more hassle than switching over the hosepipe. Personal opinion, of course!


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## LorenzoT (Jan 26, 2013)

bildo said:


> It's typically recommended to rinse the car down with your normal water to get rid of the suds etc after washing, and then for the final rinse, to use the vessel water to quickly rinse down the car.
> 
> I think you may be overthinking it a tad, as all you really want to do is ensure that you have no suds/hard water left on the car, which a good open-ended hose rinse would do.
> 
> I do think that the watering can idea could be decent, but for me it would just be more hassle than switching over the hosepipe. Personal opinion, of course!


Hehe, yes I'm definitely over-thinking it all. I've typically pressure wash rinsed the car to get all the suds off before the DI rinse. The DI rinse is to clear off all the nasty Norfolk hard water.

I tried a watering can, but I found it hard to get coverage on everything. E.g. When rinsing a vertical panel like a door.


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## garage_dweller (Apr 10, 2018)

Is the point of a DI vessel to save you time so you don’t need to dry the car off. So you give it a final rinse then that’s you done?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Andy from Sandy (May 6, 2011)

I still dry the car but I don't have to be particular in the process. A light pat down is all that is required but yes in theory with do dissolved solids in the water when it dries it will not leave any spots on the car.


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## bildo (Mar 29, 2008)

Andy from Sandy said:


> I still dry the car but I don't have to be particular in the process. A light pat down is all that is required but yes in theory with do dissolved solids in the water when it dries it will not leave any spots on the car.


This, basically. However, I have just left the water on the car on a sunny day when I've been feeling lazy and had zero water spots.

I also sometimes use it as a 'day after' rinse. For example, I finished my detail two days ago, yesterday was windy as hell and now the car is COVERED in dust.

So, my plan is to go out with the vessel and give it a light rinse without a wash, and hopefully, it'll leave it looking pretty much freshly washed.

I find that this usually works well with light soiling, assuming other elements like rain haven't come along and crashed the party!


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## LorenzoT (Jan 26, 2013)

garage_dweller said:


> Is the point of a DI vessel to save you time so you don't need to dry the car off. So you give it a final rinse then that's you done?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yes, totally. It's saves you having to dry the car. The first time I used deionised water instead of drying it, I was staggered by the good result. No more drying with towels and risking any marring. More importantly, no water spots.


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## tosh (Dec 30, 2005)

It also means you can wash the car in the sun, panel by panel.


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## bidderman1969 (Oct 20, 2006)

can you just use deironized water?


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## fatdazza (Dec 29, 2010)

A DI vessel does produce de-ionised water.

You could also by de-ionised water or collect if from and air conditioning unit or dehumidifier.

Condensing tumble driers are not a great source as it often contains lint


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## bidderman1969 (Oct 20, 2006)

fatdazza said:


> A DI vessel does produce de-ionised water.
> 
> You could also by de-ionised water or collect if from and air conditioning unit or dehumidifier.
> 
> Condensing tumble driers are not a great source as it often contains lint


was looking at de-ironised water from amazon, £1.50 for 2.5 litres, buying 5 litres and using in a watering can for £3


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## JoeyJoeJo (Jan 3, 2014)

You can usually buy processed from fish tank supply people, you can even get in tesco or from ECP but once opened, I wouldn't want to leave it sitting for any period.


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## MrMatt (Apr 15, 2011)

RaceGlazer said:


> the first vessel will throw out toxic water to v2 which will be destroyed very quickly. So just use one vessel.
> 
> See our calculator to get some idea of what you should get, though its based on our more economic 7 and 14L vessels.


Genuine questions:

In what way is the water toxic? What are the chemical changes?

What is the difference in longevity between two 7L vessels in series both loaded with new resin and one 14L vessel?

If they are the same diameter then surely by the time the water has passed through the first half of the 14L vessel it will be in exactly the same condition as the water in the 7L vessel? So does it then become toxic as it hits the second half of the vessel and ruin the resin in that half?


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## RaceGlazer (Jan 10, 2007)

The water becomes 'toxic' as its loaded with dissolved minerals which will wash off the spent resin - in terms of toxic, it means it wont pass UK drinking water standards. 

Once the first vessels resin has reached saturation point, not only will pure tap water go into the 2nd vessel but it will wash off some of the ionically bonded minerals from the resin media, effectively dumping what you had previously removed into your brand new resin bed. 

If using a 14L vessel, which is in itself more efficient/cost effective than 2 x 7Ls anyway, once the resin is dead the minerals stay in that depleted resin.


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## GeeWhizRS (Nov 1, 2019)

I'm not sure at what TDS level you would consider the resin to be spent, but for the sake of argument lets say anything over 10 TDS will leave water spots. That's not to say that resin is spent as it would still be reducing TDS to a point approaching the level of TDS as the water feeding the vessel.
If I recall, my tap water is about 180 TDS. So, if I had one vessel (as I do) and I replaced the resin at 10 TDS, I would be throwing away the additional performance (albeit reduced) of the resin between 10-180 TDS. If you are concerned about contamination from the first vessel washing to the second vessel, there's nothing to stop you fitting an inline TDS meter (approx £25) between the two vessels that would let you know when you have reached whatever TDS level you chose. You may decide to replace the first vessel when the water it outputs is say 100 TDS if you fear contamination. At that point replace the resin and swap the vessel order. This way you are surely using up all the potential of the resin?
This is not viable for me because I move my vessel about. If I had a fixed setup (or maybe on a trolley) this would be on my radar.


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## RaceGlazer (Jan 10, 2007)

The problem with resin failure is that its not linear, but exponential, so hard to judge, except that it will be faster than you expect once it is entering the spotting phase.

Its not worth the risk in our view (based on 20 years water industry experience - not mine I hasten to add).


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## GeeWhizRS (Nov 1, 2019)

I understand that it won't be linear, that makes sense. If you have a TDS meter between vessels I can't see how you can go wrong though. This totally makes sense to me to achieve as much life as possible out of your resin.
p.s. I'm still waiting for a video from you where you can effectively rinse down your car with the amount of DI water you claimed. 😉


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## fatdazza (Dec 29, 2010)

I remain to be convinced that "saturated" resin then "dumps" the dissolved solids after a period of time.

Edit - I have 25 years of water industry experience, but not necessarily in the science of de-ionisation.


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## MrMatt (Apr 15, 2011)

I still don't get how the 14l vessel which is basically twice the height of the 7l vessel can be any different to two 7l vessels in series in terms of performance and output? 

Surely the reason that you get more than 2x the water output from the 14L v the 7L is because effectively its doing the same as having two in series?

I assume you get stratification of the TDS levels within the vessel and when the resin is new 0ppm water is available near the top. Then as the resin as the top runs out the 0ppm point gradually gets lower and lower down the vessel with the expired resin above it just helping out?

My experience of having two vessels matches the rates you see with your 14L v 7L vessels. Your ratio for double the resin volume of 1105L/415L output = 2.66 is roughly what I have for two vessels. So 2:2.66 or 1:1.33 is the volume to water output ratio.

So then the question is a financial one, if you have a 7l vessel and want to get the extra third of longevity out of your resin is it worth the investment for the second vessel. If you dont have a 7l vessel then for sure its cheaper to get a 14l vessel at the start.


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## GeeWhizRS (Nov 1, 2019)

Hopefully this explains it Matt.


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## MrMatt (Apr 15, 2011)

GeeWhizRS said:


> Hopefully this explains it Matt.


Thats basically my point mate, two should be better longevity than one smaller one.:thumb:


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