# What makes these new ceramics so exspensive?



## chrisc (Jun 15, 2008)

What makes these new ceramics so exspensive?
When i look at say a tub of wax how much you get then ill look at some ceramics i have.
Is it just that they last so long so prices are so high


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## evotuning (Oct 16, 2009)

Much more sophisticated chemistry involved I suppose,ingredients etc. Not to mention more complicated R&D. 

You don't see coatings in Homebrew section, do you ?


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## chrisc (Jun 15, 2008)

what to make it worth more than gold per gram:lol:
Joke aside still think there mega exspensive for what they are and how much you get


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## evotuning (Oct 16, 2009)

Besides, don't want to open can of worms here, but I always had strange feeling that in coating market we have signs of something that looks like price fixing. Why would all coatings on market, from different manufacturers , based on different recipes cost pretty much the same.


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## chrisc (Jun 15, 2008)

may be some one as patent on a recipe or some thing dont know.
But no ones ever really said why the cost is so much per ml.
like £5000 per 5ltr at a guess must be some thing real speacial inside


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## M4D YN (Nov 24, 2007)

chrisc you'd be better with a wee veg/garden thing/patch or something,as your as tight as i've seen,then you'll be happy with all your saved cash for when you die :lol:


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## chrisc (Jun 15, 2008)

what makes you same im tight?
just like bargains and value for money


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## M4D YN (Nov 24, 2007)

chrisc said:


> what makes you same im tight?
> just like bargains and value for money


I've been reading your posts from 2008 :speechles


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## chrisc (Jun 15, 2008)

M4D YN said:


> I've been reading your post from 2008 :speechles


yeah maybe i do come across as a tight **** but am not
just cant get my head round why so much though


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## Mick (Jan 23, 2010)

chrisc said:


> yeah maybe i do come across as a tight **** but am not
> just cant get my head round why so much though


you can apply this logic to anything though, cant you?

you could say the same about any Wax product over £100, questions why so much if you can get megs 16 Wax for £20?

It costs that much because thats what the manufacturers charge for it.. and so long as people are buying it, they are not likely to reduce prices.

then when any new brands come onto the market, they do their market research to see what competitors are charging and price accordingly based on that. its just good business sense?


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## M4D YN (Nov 24, 2007)

chrisc said:


> yeah maybe i do come across as a tight **** but am not
> just cant get my head round why so much though


Heard it 

Yeah mate am the same,looked at some products from that Modesta mob and nearly had heart failure/mitchell& king are the same and sadly quite a few others too,i'll not be using them,as much as i have spent and time that's been put in to my cars/vans over the years,its not worth it for me now as i get older,better things out there,for me its to try and keep it balanced as much as possible


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## chrisc (Jun 15, 2008)

Mick said:


> you can apply this logic to anything though, cant you?
> 
> you could say the same about any Wax product over £100, questions why so much if you can get megs 16 Wax for £20?
> 
> ...


So question is if you know is it mega exspensive to make:thumb:


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## Derekh929 (Aug 28, 2011)

Mick said:


> you can apply this logic to anything though, cant you?
> 
> you could say the same about any Wax product over £100, questions why so much if you can get megs 16 Wax for £20?
> 
> ...


Simple supply and demand :thumb:


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## Deniance (Jun 28, 2008)

they are expensive because they know they will sell! end of really, hype them up on here, pay off some fanboys and voila! the same can be seen with the auto finesse buckets. i await a flaming


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## Mick (Jan 23, 2010)

chrisc said:


> So question is if you know is it mega exspensive to make:thumb:


if you think any of these products cost nearly as much as RRP for any (manufacturers - not "resellers"), I would imagine you would be kidding yourself.

I make no guarantees, but the business model of any successful business is not to try and sell a product on for the most modest of markups - it is after all exactly that, a business - not a charity :thumb:

If you can find out what raw materials are in some of the coatings (nano silica for example), and look at the cost of the raw materials, it should give you an indicator.


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## Mick (Jan 23, 2010)

Derekh929 said:


> Simple supply and demand :thumb:


in a nutshell, yes :thumb:


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## chrisc (Jun 15, 2008)

I have nowt against the cermaics so no death threats or owt please.
Just when i was lineing my cupboard up other day was looking at them and though my god theres 13 quid there for 10ml.


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## chrisc (Jun 15, 2008)

Mick said:


> if you think any of these products cost nearly as much as RRP for any (manufacturers - not "resellers"), I would imagine you would be kidding yourself.
> 
> I make no guarantees, but the business model of any successful business is not to try and sell a product on for the most modest of markups - it is after all exactly that, a business - not a charity :thumb:
> 
> If you can find out what raw materials are in some of the coatings (nano silica for example), and look at the cost of the raw materials, it should give you an indicator.


yeah i understand all that mick not haveing a dig at people what sell them was just keen to know why there so exspensive.


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## Alex L (Oct 25, 2005)

evotuning said:


> Besides, don't want to open can of worms here, but I always had strange feeling that in coating market we have signs of something that looks like price fixing. Why would all coatings on market, from different manufacturers , based on different recipes cost pretty much the same.


Probably because a lot come from the same factory, so are bought a set price, then everyone sticks their 50% mark up on it :lol::lol:

My work for example, we give the customer two prices. the one we want them to pay us and then one 25% more that we want them to sell it at.

So we make our profit being the maker - say the factory in Asia and then the customer -say the brand you are buying wacks on an extra 25% and their customer -you and I pay the bill.

And yet our customers still try and screw us down on price yet won't drop their 25% profit 



chrisc said:


> So question is if you know is it mega exspensive to make:thumb:


Originally yes, probably an insane amount of R&D as mentioned before. But surely over time the manufacturing process and buying materials in bulk should bring that cost down, but it never does.


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## Mick (Jan 23, 2010)

chrisc said:


> yeah i understand all that mick not haveing a dig at people what sell them was just keen to know why there so exspensive.


me neither mate, I dont grudge anyone a quid, fair play so long as they are getting away with it. It just sucks for us mugs who have to pay to use it :lol:


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## caledonia (Sep 13, 2008)

What makes these new coating so expensive = the consumer as well as marketing to make it stand out from the crowed. The higher the cost the better it is.

HAHA 

Gordon.


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## Rascal_69 (Sep 20, 2009)

You get aftershave in 30 and 50ml's which can cost same as ceramic coating


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## chrisc (Jun 15, 2008)

Yeah that will have somet to do with it just read this one
Modesta BC-04 30ml £159.95 (Incl. VAT @ 20%)
Modesta BC-04 is capable to withstand temperatures of up to 900 °C. 

suppose its handy if i drive my van into a oven or the sun:lol:


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## chrisc (Jun 15, 2008)

Rascal_69 said:


> You get aftershave in 30 and 50ml's which can cost same as ceramic coating


yeah but you can get sure for men roll on at asda for £1.50 what does same thing smells:thumb:

you dont see these ceramics cheap so back to my question are they mega exspensive to make?


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## Deniance (Jun 28, 2008)

as said above, they cost what they cost from the factory plus a huge markup by end seller, remember years ago, the medicine industry type thing got caught out ripping people off, asprins and stuff dropped to pennies for a few weeks, now all of a sudden the prices are back to what they were!


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## moosh (May 8, 2011)

It has unicorn tears in it, rare and hard to extract!

I agree with Gordon above, the customers make it expensive and the masters of hype who say they've been testing it for months and it's the new best thing.

Sometimes the new best thing turns out to be ****e and the hype masters just blame the people for user error.


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## -Raven- (Aug 26, 2010)

chrisc said:


> Yeah that will have somet to do with it just read this one
> Modesta BC-04 30ml £159.95 (Incl. VAT @ 20%)
> Modesta BC-04 is capable to withstand temperatures of up to 900 °C.
> 
> suppose its handy if i drive my van into a oven or the sun:lol:


The thing is I'm sure who Modesta get their coatings from don't charge that much!


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## -Raven- (Aug 26, 2010)

chrisc said:


> What makes these new ceramics so exspensive?
> When i look at say a tub of wax how much you get then ill look at some ceramics i have.
> Is it just that they last so long so prices are so high


Ceramics aren't that expensive when you buy from the source.


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## adjones (Apr 24, 2013)

Detailers seem to think more expensive is better. Opticoat used to be gold standard and I think it still is. But people are ignoring it now for fancy, much more expensive, alternatives. Detailers are to blame for the high prices. Its a bit like ultra rich guys and sports cars, way more money than sense!


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## Darlofan (Nov 24, 2010)

Probably the same thing that makes the ceramic washers in my taps so expensive. Apparently they last longer than rubber washers. House is 7 years old and I've replaced 3 of them so far costing about £13 each:doublesho


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## NipponShine (Jun 19, 2012)

I saw something even newer than ceramic! Is a flame coating that could be apply on several materials, not sure will it last as long as ceramics though...


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## Rayner (Aug 16, 2012)

No idea what it costs to make one but I do know it doesn't cost as much as they sell it for because they'd only be around for a week or 2 if it did.

It happens in everyday life though, ever got any building work done for example? 
You employ a 'builder', he does the brickwork, then gets a plasterer in for you, puts 20% on his bill, then gets a chippy in for you, puts 20% on his bill and so on. It's the same people doing the work but your paying more for it...

Everyone is out there to make a profit, it's the ONLY reason any of us work but some people do seem to get all bent out of shape about it. 

Ceramics are expensive but they are also imo worth much more than an ordinary wax. I've got 3 vehicles outside my house, one has had CQUK on for 11 months and still looks brilliant, my Impreza has had a decent wax on for 3 months and it needs doing again. The lower end prices are perfectly justified imo. What it costs to make is irrelevant for me.


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## adjones (Apr 24, 2013)

rayner said:


> No idea what it costs to make one but I do know it doesn't cost as much as they sell it for because they'd only be around for a week or 2 if it did.
> 
> It happens in everyday life though, ever got any building work done for example?
> You employ a 'builder', he does the brickwork, then gets a plasterer in for you, puts 20% on his bill, then gets a chippy in for you, puts 20% on his bill and so on. It's the same people doing the work but your paying more for it...
> ...


I'd be more concerned that the add on is massively more. We've all heard about certain brands giving 70% and more discount on their standard chemical line. Those who think know there is a lot of inflated retail prices (which is why buy one get one free can work with some brands). It would be a shame if the same practice meant ceramics were being made ridiculously high and stopping them being more common.


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## Rascal_69 (Sep 20, 2009)

Carpro cquk is what £36? 

No exactly expensive. You get everything in the kit too. 
Applicator, small suedes, 1 large suede, 2 x stickers, 30ml of product.


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## Rayner (Aug 16, 2012)

Rascal_69 said:


> Carpro cquk is what £36?
> 
> No exactly expensive. You get everything in the kit too.
> Applicator, small suedes, 1 large suede, 2 x stickers, 30ml of product.


Exactly, worth every penny imo.


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## Ge03 (Jul 19, 2011)

Perhaps the business model has something to do with it? The makers spend a considerable amount developing a product that the user only needs a tiny amount of and doesn't need to buy again for at least a year. To recover their investment the maker needs to get as much as possible from each end-user. 
Sonax have nano protection products that are relatively inexpensive like Hybrid NPT as well as the more typical priced nano coating with the Premium Class NPC.


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## Rascal_69 (Sep 20, 2009)

rayner said:


> Exactly, worth every penny imo.


Forgot the 100ml of reload too.

Really can't complain at that tbh


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## Leo19 (Mar 9, 2011)

Rascal_69 said:


> Carpro cquk is what £36?
> 
> No exactly expensive. You get everything in the kit too.
> Applicator, small suedes, 1 large suede, 2 x stickers, 30ml of product.


^^^this, great value


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## Rascal_69 (Sep 20, 2009)

Really annoying all these threads moaning price of this or that. 

So much of it lately. If you don't want to pay you don't have too. 

Modesta prices are there prices. I own one and it doesn't bother me how much it costs. 
Swissvax own loads of it and I think there worth their money. 

No one is making any one buy the dearer brands. 

As said before you can buy primark jeans for a couple of quid or a pair designer ones at few hundred? Does it really cost that much a difference? 

Nike stuff. Most made in poverty countries and child labour. What kind of mark up do they make you think? 

Business is business. Each to their own. 

There's also good value ceramics. 

Carpro cquk kit being the best value I think. 
30ml will do paint, wheels, trims and plastics.


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## Rayner (Aug 16, 2012)

adjones said:


> I'd be more concerned that the add on is massively more. We've all heard about certain brands giving 70% and more discount on their standard chemical line. Those who think know there is a lot of inflated retail prices (which is why buy one get one free can work with some brands). It would be a shame if the same practice meant ceramics were being made ridiculously high and stopping them being more common.


It would be and I have no doubt that the high end of the market price wise is nothing more than that but I doubt the lower priced end is true same.


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## chrisc (Jun 15, 2008)

Rascal_69 said:


> Really annoying all these threads moaning price of this or that.
> 
> So much of it lately. If you don't want to pay you don't have too.
> 
> ...


it's not a moan thread dont know where you get that idea from?
it's a intrest in what original question was:thumb:


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## stangalang (Nov 27, 2009)

I have to be honest and say i don't think they are THAT expensive? Even the mega expensive ones, coming from japan, a lot of that is not product but shipping and taxes. I remember importing some echelon stuff, the end price LITERALLY doubled from what i bought it at. The actual product itself i thought was reasonable.

Also, and this is just my opinion, but you can't compare coatings to waxes, they are not doing the same job at all, the tech involved and the reason to use are very different. So in truth, they SHOULD be a bit more imo. 

Yes, there are some out there that are a lot, being used by the same people who brought us the expensive machinery too. But i guess its simply your choice weather to buy or use. End of the day, even if a chunk is marketing, just don't click "buy", or wait for them to come up on here and buy at a sale price just to try

Ive used some very expensive products, and some very cheap ones. Some are worth every penny, some are a rip off, and that falls at both ends of the cost spectrum, I've been gutted with some waxes that cost less than a tenner, and thrilled with some that cost me a whole heap more, it is what it is i guess


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## Ronnie (Nov 15, 2006)

as said the chemistry behind these are one that it is just not possible for 90% of UK companies to tey it, we have and to make 1L of sample product the raw material cost alone was over £1000 not including time for us lab time Queens University time etc etc to test it. To be honest a lot of it is marketing hype as well we have had Queens University test alot of them with assistance from Invest NI and in teh UK this is not cheap. think approx £10-15k of lab time by time to market for one product.


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## -Raven- (Aug 26, 2010)

Rascal_69 said:


> Carpro cquk is what £36?
> 
> No exactly expensive. You get everything in the kit too.
> Applicator, small suedes, 1 large suede, 2 x stickers, 30ml of product.


And the Korean counterpart costs US$30 (£18) for a 30ml kit with the 100ml 'reload'. The 30ml 'DLUX' costs US$15 (£9) as well.......


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## Derekh929 (Aug 28, 2011)

-Raven- said:


> And the Korean counterpart costs US$30 (£18) for a 30ml kit with the 100ml 'reload'. The 30ml 'DLUX' costs US$15 (£9) as well.......


Everything is cheaper in US huge competition and more to choose from in most areas , nothing new there


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## Ronnie (Nov 15, 2006)

remember import tax and also all companies are only functioning to make profit and generally a business needs to double its money to remain functional so in fairness CPUK is not making a load on it compared to some companies that put any old crap in a bottle and flog it to you. as said if you look at teh US it is roughly the same in $ and £ but remember teh US has 100's of millions of potential customers England does not even register with the potential customers UK companies have to work with.. I think people have to grasp that we as companies are out to make money we have to make a profit so yes you can get it cheaper from the wholesale or from teh manufacturer directly its always been like that I am sure we would all moan if we went into work and your boss said we are no longer going to pay you as we are going to give our products away so from now on you work for free lol!:wave:


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## Rascal_69 (Sep 20, 2009)

-Raven- said:


> And the Korean counterpart costs US$30 (£18) for a 30ml kit with the 100ml 'reload'. The 30ml 'DLUX' costs US$15 (£9) as well.......


Shipping and uk import tax and postage company charge for paying import duty.

Not much cheaper I bet at the end


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## -Raven- (Aug 26, 2010)

Derekh929 said:


> Everything is cheaper in US huge competition and more to choose from in most areas , nothing new there


not in US, prices in US dollars....


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## -Raven- (Aug 26, 2010)

Rascal_69 said:


> Shipping and uk import tax and postage company charge for paying import duty.
> 
> Not much cheaper I bet at the end


the price was over 50% cheaper for me in Australia delivered.


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## Rayner (Aug 16, 2012)

-Raven- said:


> the price was over 50% cheaper for me in Australia delivered.


I can understand getting it from source but what happens when something goes wrong? If something needs sending back etc. Plus how long did you wait for postage? I know I can get it within 24hrs from a reseller for not much more and I can have it within a few days from Carpro, if there's something wrong with it they'll send another.

This of course is something else we're paying for, the risk these resellers take.


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## wylie coyote (Jul 15, 2007)

Isn't it like anything else that people buy in smaller quantities? The chemical producers make vast amounts and sell at the lowest unit cost to their customers who purchase in huge bulk. Who knows of any ceramic or other exotic coating that sells in enough volume that the manufacturer or reseller could get the very lowest price from the chemical producer? There isn't one, so the manufacturer(brand) won't be able to get it at anywhere near the prices that volume buyers can because they're only purchasing relatively small amounts. Add in exchange rate differences, import taxes etc and there are only a few brands that you might be able to say put a huge mark up on their products...


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## martyp (Oct 24, 2006)

C1+ kit @ £44.99 expensive? Wouldn't say so personally, unless you drop the bottle mid detail with the lid off. 

Takes hardly any time to apply, leaves a very very nice finish and gives some scratch resistance behind which waxes can't. Bearing in mind it will last over 1 year with just washing the car I think it pays for itself.


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## RDB85 (Dec 28, 2011)

Polish Angel is great value for money. Superb products


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## Damien89 (May 13, 2007)

In my opinion ceramics are good for pro detailers so they can up the price for the pro details they do. I have tried a couple of ceramics and to be honest with the heat that we have here in Malta both didn't last the 1 year period that the manu. said they last. 

A detailer from the usa once said "use what you like, but use it often" it doesn't have to cost an arm and a leg to be 'good'.

The only ceramic product that i got a year out of the product was a plastic bumper restorer and the whole bottle was empty after one application.
When the plastics started to fade again i had a bottle of AG bumper care and decided to give it a go. I got the same result look wise except that every two months i have to re apply it and the bottle will surely last a couple of years before its empty. 
So yes given the amount that you get in the bottle they are very expensive.
They are also expensive because they are the 'best' you can buy for your car.


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## Guest (Jan 1, 2014)

A lot of these products come from around the houses and pass through many hands all wanting a cut of the profit, then when they do get here good old HMRC like to take a cut as well in duty and then the customs clearance agents want some for brining the goods in.

I work in imports and exports and see the cost of many products and some companies it is shocking to see how much is put on them, but some dont make much, i think you can apply this to the detailing world with most producers, some are premium some are not, do you get what you pay for? In most cases yes.

Say for example a 30ml bottle of "glass/ceramic/quartz" coating

Per bottle 
£10 to make
bottling and labelling say £1-2
profit for company for r&d £5
airfreight £3-5
HMRC £1-2

so £20 is bout average per bottle before the resellers over here get it and then they need to maintain overheads so hence the £30+ price tag.

I for one think it can be overpriced in some aspects for what the products are from some producers, but who am i to judge how much these people charge, there is a simple choice buy or don't buy it. A small amount of digging will show where some of the coatings come from and what ones are the same, and its just not restricted to the far east hence the same prices for similar products.

Long and short most goods imported into the uk are cheap its the cost to get them here, the clearance and HMRC charges that ruin it.


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## Alex L (Oct 25, 2005)

RDB85 said:


> Polish Angel is great value for money. Superb products


Apart from the shampoo :thumb:


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## RDB85 (Dec 28, 2011)

Alex L said:


> Apart from the shampoo :thumb:


Not tried the shampoo Alex, are they no good then?


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## Wax Tec (Jun 19, 2013)

Dont forget guys also outnof that "profit" we have to pay out alot of neccessary expenses. 

We have: 
VAT
Income Tax
Insurance 
All our other heads. 

Youll be lucky to see 40% of that profit as a company after all the neccessitys have been paid.


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## Guitarjon (Jul 13, 2012)

A other way to look at it is that generally ceramic coatings last a long time, so are they being bought as often? 

Although to contradict myself above I guess wax can be applied many times.


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## -Raven- (Aug 26, 2010)

rayner said:


> I can understand getting it from source but what happens when something goes wrong? If something needs sending back etc. Plus how long did you wait for postage? I know I can get it within 24hrs from a reseller for not much more and I can have it within a few days from Carpro, if there's something wrong with it they'll send another.
> 
> This of course is something else we're paying for, the risk these resellers take.


I can understand you guys in the UK with the choice and convenience of having everything at your doorstep, having stuff delivered the same day or overnight etc, and to some that's worth paying double, triple, quadruple for.

And if I have a problem with anything, I just sort it out with who ever I ordered from. I've never had to send something back, but I've had replacement products sent free no problems.


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## Alex L (Oct 25, 2005)

RDB85 said:


> Not tried the shampoo Alex, are they no good then?


No I really, really like Aqua but the cost for just 500ml is a bit steep.


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## fatdazza (Dec 29, 2010)

Wax Tec said:


> Dont forget guys also outnof that "profit" we have to pay out alot of neccessary expenses.
> 
> We have:
> VAT
> ...


I might be being picky (sorry it's my nature :lol but if you are a business and are VAT registered, VAT is not an expense for you. VAT only falls on the final customer.


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## Rascal_69 (Sep 20, 2009)

Alex L said:


> No I really, really like Aqua but the cost for just 500ml is a bit steep.


A few polish angel stuff is really expensive.

Wheel cleaner - mint - 500ml - £26
Tyre dressing - honey - 200ml - £38
Prewash - ultra red - 1l - £43
Tar remover - teersun - 500ml - £39

Worst one

Iron remover - iron serum - 500ml -£69


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## Rayner (Aug 16, 2012)

^^^^Now that sort of thing is what makes me question a company. Why pay them £43 for Prewash when the one I use that is extremely effective is about £1 per litre when bought in bulk :lol: 

£70 for iron remover? Who the hells buying that? 

That sort of thing I can understand people starting threads about but if there all the same price I see no point.


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## RDB85 (Dec 28, 2011)

rayner said:


> ^^^^Now that sort of thing is what makes me question a company. Why pay them £43 for Prewash when the one I use that is extremely effective is about £1 per litre when bought in bulk :lol:
> 
> £70 for iron remover? Who the hells buying that?
> 
> That sort of thing I can understand people starting threads about but if there all the same price I see no point.


Whose that from, sounds like a great deal that prewash :thumb:


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## Rayner (Aug 16, 2012)

RDB85 said:


> Whose that from, sounds like a great deal that prewash :thumb:


AS Active Xls, it's awesome!

It's a tfr and as such isn't 'wax safe' but it's not noticeably deteriorated any I've used it on and is far more effective than anything else I've used :thumb:


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## nick_mcuk (Jan 4, 2008)

I think the costs are all down to the marketing most of these companies that sell these ceramic coatings are not the manufacturers they re-badge.

Same goes for a lot of the newer companies they are a Brand not a Manufacturer....big difference.

I read earlier on about "Unicorn Tears" and getting the "Fanboi" base up this would come under marketing activity in my book and if people are unable to see the difference between what are clearly identical products in different packaging then let them get on with squandering their money.

I for one think CarPro are probably the best and most fair of all the ceramic coatings price wise and i believe that they will be the only ones to last once the smoke clears and everyone realises they were sucked in by marketing hype.

One thing that really does concern me still about all these "Far East" chemical products is the health implications we all know how strict the Far East is on H&S and safety. The fact that the "Brands" that sell them to you here in the UK make no effort to do any research or give suitable guidance on protective clothing/equipment you wear/use whilst applying said products really concerns me.

When I did some research and used one of these ceramic products I took a small sniff of the product to see what it smelled like and it nearly blew my head off!! Needless to say when I used it on a car I used a full 3M organic filter mask, eye protection and double gloved.


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## evotuning (Oct 16, 2009)

> I for one think CarPro are probably the best and most fair of all the ceramic coatings price wise and i believe that they will be the only ones to last once the smoke clears and everyone realises they were sucked in by marketing hype.


Could You explain why ?


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## Rascal_69 (Sep 20, 2009)

evotuning said:


> Could You explain why ?


I think main ones are

Artdeshine
Carpro
Modesta 
Gtechniq 
Polish angel 
Max protect 
Gyeon

Which all do very well. 
Don't think modesta will be big for home detailer but for pros and i think that was there market.


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## Sick_at_Sea (Dec 14, 2013)

A whle ago, I fell into the trap of "it is expensive so it must be superior". I now know that's not always true and whilst a premium wax may be very easy to apply and remove, it may not actually give any superior results or longevity. I suppose you could use Meguiars No. 16 and Zymol Glasur as an example - owining both, I cannot see and visibly superior results between the two. Certainly, the Zymol is packaged much nicer, has a certificate of authenticity with it and comes in a black silky bag - nice touches. The Meguiars comes in a blue tin, end of. Marketing, I think it is called...............

I alos recall that Dodo's waxes were £32.50 when originally released and they're about £25ish now, so these ceramics will also reduce in time; but tha's true of most things. I remember paying £500 for a VHS player once and a mate of mibe paid £1k for a dvd player in 1997/8 - they start at £20 now methinks and VHS is dead.

Of course chemistry and composition moves on, but at £50+ for a tiny bottle? Everyone will do themselves out of business if they're not careful. 

Don't get me wrong, I'm keen to try one, but they don't seem to be as well hyped (yet) as premium brand waxes. Come to think of it, I have more or less moved from wax to sealant now.

Just my personal thoughts.


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## nick_mcuk (Jan 4, 2008)

evotuning said:


> Could You explain why ?


Well all you have to do is look at this kit...

CQuartz - UK Edition Paint Sealant

That seems better value to me than say...

Gtechniq C1

Or

Gtechniq EXO v2 Hybrid Coating

Were £40 buys you just the 30ml of product.

I bet they come out of the same vat in Asia too!

CarPro started off the ceramic trend and then all others jumped on the band wagon, there prices are not ad daft as some.


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## AndyC (Oct 25, 2005)

It's easy to forget that gtechniq were at this way before detailing started here - Rob's been at this for donkey's years and developed the products from their original marine use.

Plus you use very little - a few drops of gtechniq on my trim protected it for over 3 years so £ for £ it isn't over expensive when compared with products which need regular topping up to maximise what they do.

Like Nick however I do wonder how safe products made outside the EU are. That said, until I stop the **** I can hardly get worries about detailing products damaging my health lol.


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## evotuning (Oct 16, 2009)

> That seems better value to me than say...


Wait, You said that CarPro is best, not cheapest. For me best means best performance, not best price. Unless cheapest is best, but I hope that's not what You meant


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## ronwash (Mar 26, 2011)

Sick_at_Sea said:


> A whle ago, I fell into the trap of "it is expensive so it must be superior". I now know that's not always true and whilst a premium wax may be very easy to apply and remove, it may not actually give any superior results or longevity. I suppose you could use Meguiars No. 16 and Zymol Glasur as an example - owining both, I cannot see and visibly superior results between the two. Certainly, the Zymol is packaged much nicer, has a certificate of authenticity with it and comes in a black silky bag - nice touches. The Meguiars comes in a blue tin, end of. Marketing, I think it is called...............
> 
> I alos recall that Dodo's waxes were £32.50 when originally released and they're about £25ish now, so these ceramics will also reduce in time; but tha's true of most things. I remember paying £500 for a VHS player once and a mate of mibe paid £1k for a dvd player in 1997/8 - they start at £20 now methinks and VHS is dead.
> 
> ...


Mate,if you cant see any different in looks,durabilty,ease of application,between megs 16 to glasur,youre in the wrong field..


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## -Raven- (Aug 26, 2010)

nick_mcuk said:


> I read earlier on about "Unicorn Tears" and getting the "Fanboi" base up this would come under marketing activity in my book and if people are unable to see the difference between what are clearly identical products in different packaging then let them get on with squandering their money.
> 
> I for one think CarPro are probably the best and most fair of all the ceramic coatings price wise and i believe that they will be the only ones to last once the smoke clears and everyone realises they were sucked in by marketing hype.


lol! 

As i posted before, does this look familiar? Only £18 a kit. Less than 1/2 of the price of the CarPro kit you posted. :thumb:












nick_mcuk said:


> CarPro started off the ceramic trend and then all others jumped on the band wagon, there prices are not ad daft as some.


Who started it? What were you saying before about 'brand' and 'manufacturer'


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## -Raven- (Aug 26, 2010)

AndyC said:


> It's easy to forget that gtechniq were at this way before detailing started here - Rob's been at this for donkey's years and developed the products from their original marine use.
> 
> Plus you use very little - a few drops of gtechniq on my trim protected it for over 3 years so £ for £ it isn't over expensive when compared with products which need regular topping up to maximise what they do.
> 
> Like Nick however I do wonder how safe products made outside the EU are. That said, until I stop the **** I can hardly get worries about detailing products damaging my health lol.


name a coating made inside the EU....


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## -Raven- (Aug 26, 2010)

Sick_at_Sea said:


> A whle ago, I fell into the trap of "it is expensive so it must be superior". I now know that's not always true and whilst a premium wax may be very easy to apply and remove, it may not actually give any superior results or longevity. I suppose you could use Meguiars No. 16 and Zymol Glasur as an example - owining both, I cannot see and visibly superior results between the two. Certainly, the Zymol is packaged much nicer, has a certificate of authenticity with it and comes in a black silky bag - nice touches. The Meguiars comes in a blue tin, end of. Marketing, I think it is called...............
> 
> I alos recall that Dodo's waxes were £32.50 when originally released and they're about £25ish now, so these ceramics will also reduce in time; but tha's true of most things. I remember paying £500 for a VHS player once and a mate of mibe paid £1k for a dvd player in 1997/8 - they start at £20 now methinks and VHS is dead.
> 
> ...


Yep, I have to agree with you, price has nothing to do with performance. For a long time my old tub of Turtle Wax Platinum Paste Wax was my favorite. I went through a few expensive waxes before I found one that I thought was better than the cheap Turtle Wax....

The market dictates prices. Set prices too high like 22PLE and it just falls by the wayside. I can see it happening with Modesta now (I don't think it has ever gained traction in the first place). They just have to sell for what the market is happy to pay.

I haven't seen any expensive wax threads on here for ages too! Are people finally over the BS wax prices?


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## AndyC (Oct 25, 2005)

:argie:


-Raven- said:


> name a coating made inside the EU....


Very few I suspect - that was my point. Don't see country of origin as being an issue - Meguiars products come in from across the pond and have done since they started selling in the UK.

Might be worth asking those who sell rather than the usual speculation?


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## neil b (Aug 30, 2006)

-Raven- said:


> name a coating made inside the EU....


Polish angel cosmic


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## Sick_at_Sea (Dec 14, 2013)

ronwash said:


> Mate,if you cant see any different in looks,durabilty,ease of application,between megs 16 to glasur,youre in the wrong field..


You've been snared too I see.


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## Sick_at_Sea (Dec 14, 2013)

-Raven- said:


> Yep, I have to agree with you, price has nothing to do with performance. For a long time my old tub of Turtle Wax Platinum Paste Wax was my favorite. I went through a few expensive waxes before I found one that I thought was better than the cheap Turtle Wax....
> 
> The market dictates prices. Set prices too high like 22PLE and it just falls by the wayside. I can see it happening with Modesta now (I don't think it has ever gained traction in the first place). They just have to sell for what the market is happy to pay.
> 
> I haven't seen any expensive wax threads on here for ages too! Are people finally over the BS wax prices?


I don't think so, but it took a while for the penny to drop with me.


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## jaxcass (Oct 7, 2013)

Everything in the world is the same. Nike trainers cost less than £1 to make. The nike logo is added they sell for £1120.some detailing products cost £15 for 1 litre buy 25 litres you get it at £80 thats 3.20 litre if im correct. Its insane but people pay it. We only have ourselves to blame :thumb:


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## jaxcass (Oct 7, 2013)

Meant to say sell for £120


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## adjones (Apr 24, 2013)

neil b said:


> Polish angel cosmic


How do you know though? They mite say so but one of the biggest brands on here swore that they made all their own stuff but now we all know better. It's worse than marketing bs now, a lot of the time it is just plain lies.


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## Sick_at_Sea (Dec 14, 2013)

jaxcass said:


> Everything in the world is the same. Nike trainers cost less than £1 to make. The nike logo is added they sell for £1120.some detailing products cost £15 for 1 litre buy 25 litres you get it at £80 thats 3.20 litre if im correct. Its insane but people pay it. We only have ourselves to blame :thumb:


Had, not have...........:thumb:


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## Rascal_69 (Sep 20, 2009)

jaxcass said:


> Everything in the world is the same. Nike trainers cost less than £1 to make. The nike logo is added they sell for £1120.some detailing products cost £15 for 1 litre buy 25 litres you get it at £80 thats 3.20 litre if im correct. Its insane but people pay it. We only have ourselves to blame :thumb:


Exactly. Everything is the world is same. Cars, stuff you wear. Everything in your house, garage and work.

And I bet most have big brands everywhere.

Or is everyone buying cheap tv's and primary clothes


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## Sick_at_Sea (Dec 14, 2013)

Rascal_69 said:


> Exactly. Everything is the world is same. Cars, stuff you wear. Everything in your house, garage and work.
> 
> And I bet most have big brands everywhere.
> 
> Or is everyone buying cheap tv's and primary clothes


I think I did mention "marketing" but hey-ho, if a premuim brand gives you that feelgood factor, go for it. :thumb:


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## neil b (Aug 30, 2006)

adjones said:


> How do you know though? They mite say so but one of the biggest brands on here swore that they made all their own stuff but now we all know better. It's worse than marketing bs now, a lot of the time it is just plain lies.


This is why as each of there products comes with a batch no/serial number which you can track and see when is was produced .

SERIAL TRACK is the next Generation of product origin tracking, freshness, application book, humidity study and premium support.

The SERIAL TRACK Tracker System is a professional serial number tracking system that allows easy asset management for product tracking.


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## -Raven- (Aug 26, 2010)

neil b said:


> Polish angel cosmic


I guess you can call this wax a coating.....


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## Rascal_69 (Sep 20, 2009)

-Raven- said:


> I guess you can call this wax a coating.....


It's weird how polish angel is paste product and not fussy to use.

Raven what you done with all your swissvax?


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## Rascal_69 (Sep 20, 2009)

Sick_at_Sea said:


> I think I did mention "marketing" but hey-ho, if a premuim brand gives you that feelgood factor, go for it. :thumb:


I like my brands. If you are happy with megs wax that's good. 
I love my swissvax. My favourite wax company. 
Also got few bouncers and zymol.

Each to their own


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## -Raven- (Aug 26, 2010)

Rascal_69 said:


> It's weird how polish angel is paste product and not fussy to use.
> 
> Raven what you done with all your swissvax?


Is it a coating with wax or a wax with coating?  I'm going with the latter. Certainly wax like to use which is a winner for sure. :thumb:

I've still got all my Swissvax mate, I'm never getting rid of that. I'll come back to waxes one day. I still play around with them now and again.


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## neil b (Aug 30, 2006)

-Raven- said:


> I guess you can call this wax a coating.....


You can in a way , as you can class it as a hybrid as got titanium, silca, added to the mix too


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## S63 (Jan 5, 2007)

Rascal_69 said:


> Exactly. Everything is the world is same. Cars, stuff you wear. Everything in your house, garage and work.
> 
> And I bet most have big brands everywhere.
> 
> Or is everyone buying cheap tv's and primary clothes


These detailing products are not the same though, not here in the UK at least.

Not to be found on the High Street catering to the masses but a very bespoke, niche product available through online boutique style operations. If I walked into the equivalent of Halfords in Asia would I find a bottle of ceramic sealant, maybe the markets different there?

Big profit margins with a low turnover aimed at an extremely small market doesn't seem sustainable to me.


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## -Raven- (Aug 26, 2010)

S63 said:


> If I walked into the equivalent of Halfords in Asia would I find a bottle of ceramic sealant, maybe the markets different there?


Yes!!! You need to walk into an Autobacs!!! Trust me!!!


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## DJ X-Ray (Sep 2, 2012)

http://www.cs2singapore.com/titanium.html http://eshop.cs2singapore.com/
Thinking of trying this out


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## stangalang (Nov 27, 2009)

DJ X-Ray said:


> http://www.cs2singapore.com/titanium.html http://eshop.cs2singapore.com/
> Thinking of trying this out


Still makes me laugh how they have a picture of polished bliss on there


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## Rascal_69 (Sep 20, 2009)

stangalang said:


> Still makes me laugh how they have a picture of polished bliss on there


Does Clark know about it?

That picture has been used a few times by others.

Clark you thought about detail modelling? Everyone loves that pic you :lol:


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## Sick_at_Sea (Dec 14, 2013)

Rascal_69 said:


> I like my brands. If you are happy with megs wax that's good.
> I love my swissvax. My favourite wax company.
> Also got few bouncers and zymol.
> 
> Each to their own


I like my brands too from Autoglym to Zymol. I just wont pay foolish prices.


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## DJ X-Ray (Sep 2, 2012)

stangalang said:


> Still makes me laugh how they have a picture of polished bliss on there


Isn't it all that then stang? First i've heard of it tbh mate.


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## Alex L (Oct 25, 2005)

Rascal_69 said:


> Exactly. Everything is the world is same. Cars, stuff you wear. Everything in your house, garage and work.
> 
> And I bet most have big brands everywhere.
> 
> Or is everyone buying cheap tv's and primary clothes





Sick_at_Sea said:


> I think I did mention "marketing" but hey-ho, if a premuim brand gives you that feelgood factor, go for it. :thumb:


Take Jeans for example.

You have your cheap primark ones that might last a year or two if your lucky.

Then you have your middle of the road Levi's, which will be slightly better made and last a bit longer.

Then you have you 32oz selvedge denim Naked and Famous jeans with denim so thick it's almost bullet proof, with 2 years of development to get the jeans just right.

Then you have your cheap denim branded as Versace but insanely priced - guy at work got given a $700 pair of Versace jeans and the quality of the denim was terrible, really thin and the stitching was all split.

Change that to LSPs and things are very similar - think Collie, Dodo, Zymol/Swissvax - ??????? Don't want to upset anyone with the last comparison but you can make your own minds up.

Me I fall into the Levi/N&F camps of products.


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## nick_mcuk (Jan 4, 2008)

Alex L said:


> Take Jeans for example.
> 
> You have your cheap primark ones that might last a year or two if your lucky.
> 
> ...


Err I will throw a spanner in on that Jeans example.

I had 2 pairs of Tesco £4 jeans that I bought for doing gardening/car washing/dirty work and they lasted 4 years! I bought around the same time 2 pairs of Hugo Boss Jeans for going out etc...they lasted exactly 2 years.

So to me that says that more expensive does not equal more quality!


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## Rascal_69 (Sep 20, 2009)

My evisu jeans which are raw denim are over 5 years old.


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## Alex L (Oct 25, 2005)

nick_mcuk said:


> Err I will throw a spanner in on that Jeans example.
> 
> I had 2 pairs of Tesco £4 jeans that I bought for doing gardening/car washing/dirty work and they lasted 4 years! I bought around the same time 2 pairs of Hugo Boss Jeans for going out etc...they lasted exactly 2 years.
> 
> So to me that says that more expensive does not equal more quality!


Were they Raw Denim? I very much doubt any of those fashion brands use Raw Denim - They're the AF of the denim world



Rascal_69 said:


> My evisu jeans which are raw denim are over 5 years old.


Exactly, good quality Raw denim all the way :thumb:

I had a pair of Evisu jeans and my waist line gave out before they did :lol:
Sold them on Ebay to a guy in Oz for not much less than I paid even though they were 3-4 years old.


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## suspal (Dec 29, 2011)

Talking about jeans here you are lads :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:


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## Sick_at_Sea (Dec 14, 2013)

The gist of this is - use what you're happy with, providing you're also happy to pay the price tag.


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## Rascal_69 (Sep 20, 2009)

Sick_at_Sea said:


> The gist of this is - use what you're happy with, providing you're also happy to pay the price tag.


Exactly.

I have modesta, carpro cqaurtz , polish angel , artdeshine, gtechniq at home 

Variety is the spice of life. Gives everyone a big choice instead of only 1 ceramic to choose from.


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## AndyC (Oct 25, 2005)

If this thread goes anywhere near male grooming products then I'm off :lol:

It's subjective - I did the expensive wax thing and still have a few pots kicking around. Loved applying and sniffing etc but I need hardcore durability as by my own choice my detailing time is less now than 6/7 years ago.

My only concession to "expensive" is trainers - I'm not a "collector" as I wear them but I will always pay more for a brand I like - fashion plays a part unusually for me but comfort is the priority which is why I mainly wear New Balance - at £50-ish a pair they're hardly cheap but very well made and bloody comfortable.

I gauge any car care product by results vs ease of use vs cost vs amount used and so on. 

This is why I champion gtechniq gear generally as you don't need to use much and that point price comes into play massively - sure, 15ml of a trim dressing for over £20 seems excessive but when you literally use a few drops and get years of protection, I find it hard to criticize.

Likewise I managed almost 40,000 miles from G1 a few years back - ballache to apply by comparison with many other glass products but it brought huge benefits in safety terms and durability - I didn't need any other glass cleaners or treatments whilst it was working.

I know I probably wouldn't spent the same on, say, AG bumper dressing or glass polish over the same period but I'd save a lot of time in applying these products - and for me at least that's a factor.

I guess I'm a lazy detailer


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## Rascal_69 (Sep 20, 2009)

AndyC said:


> If this thread goes anywhere near male grooming products then I'm off :lol:
> 
> It's subjective - I did the expensive wax thing and still have a few pots kicking around. Loved applying and sniffing etc but I need hardcore durability as by my own choice my detailing time is less now than 6/7 years ago.
> 
> ...


Time is money :thumb:


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## Alex L (Oct 25, 2005)

AndyC said:


> If this thread goes anywhere near male grooming products then I'm off :lol:


That's the thing though Andy, you can take any line of products and you get your cheap and it shows products, cheap and surprisingly performs well, middle of the range priced product, rebranded cheaper product but marked up and expensive but you get what you pay for.

That's why I think the cost of some of these Coatings doesn't matter as the price to performance ratio is worth it - maybe someone with more spread sheet skills than me could take the makers claimed durability and divide that by the price or some such thing.

Opticoat 2.0 for example I can easily see that lasting the claimed 2 years.
But I tried Chemical Guys Butter wet wax once and it lasted about 3 weeks.
And good ol' Collie normally lasts 6 months.
** edited to add Modesta BC 03 which has claims upto 10 years.

So 39.99 divided by - 730 is 0.05p a day to use.
Chemical Guys Butter wet wax 14.95 - 21 is 1.06p a day to use.
Collie 476 18.99 -180 is 0.1 a day to use.
BC-03 149.99 -3652 is 0.4 a day to use

So just from that even though the OC 2.0 costs nearly 2/3 times as much as other cheap products, it's cost per daily performance saves you money and even though the BC03 lasts 5 times longer it's not really cheaper to use. And that's also presuming you use the entire bottle/tub on one car.
You could divide that further by how many cars you can coat per bottle/tub.


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## Alex L (Oct 25, 2005)

Rascal_69 said:


> Time is money :thumb:


That's why you only poop at work :thumb:


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## Sick_at_Sea (Dec 14, 2013)

Trainers.

Hmmmmm.

Adidas Samba - about £45

Adidas Y3 - start at about £170

Way off the track - sorry


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## Alex L (Oct 25, 2005)

Sick_at_Sea said:


> Trainers.
> 
> Hmmmmm.
> 
> ...


the Y3 would be your AF


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