# cash in hand morally wrong?



## DampDog

Cash in hand morally wrong?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-18964640

So is it? Bearing in mind that the money you earn has already been taxed at least once at source, income tax, national insurance.

Then there's fuel duty, VAT, duty on alcohol, tax on any savings you make. Is cash in hand for a discount wrong, or almost essential?


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## svended

The 'morally wrong issue is a hard sell. Your supposed to think about what your doing if you may cash in hand for a discount and other who are having to pay extra in tax because the person you've contracted to work for you won't. 

So you pay less for the same work to be done and others pay to pick up the slack. Hard choice morality or not. Not!


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## Miglior

This is just a drop in the ocean.... take a read of this for the real issue!!

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/...nt-firms-slam-far-cosy-links-bosses-HMRC.html


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## PugIain

If you're a doley scumbag,yes.
If you're a decent sort earning a bit extra,no.


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## The Cueball

M'eh....

It's not wrong how I choose to pay for work.

After it's handed over, it's up to them what they do with it... no problem for me to worry about. If they do or don't declare it, I'm not fussed...

:thumb:


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## Alzak

Morally wrong was replacing hard backed cash with print outs and numbers on monitors... If I pay cash is not my business if tradesman pay tax on those money simple as that.


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## DampDog

Alzak said:


> Morally wrong was replacing hard backed cash with print outs and numbers on monitors...


To true. Most banks and building societies hate paying you out in cash even though it's your hard earned. If the pay cash they lose track of it, that's why they make drawing out more than a couple of £k at a time difficult.

I take the view that once I've paid my tax as I've earned it, what I choose to to with my cash is my business. Mr taxman has quite enough from me thank you very much. Before they point their ever prying eye at the average working bloke they need to put their house in order with how the multinationals move billions around the world to avaid paying tax.


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## R7KY D

I always ask , Price for cash . 

I'm not asking the tradesman or whoever not to pay their taxes , That is up to them whether they do that or not . I just want the best deal for me


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## PugIain

DampDog said:


> To true. Most banks and building societies hate paying you out in cash even though it's your hard earned. If the pay cash they lose track of it, that's why they make drawing out more than a couple of £k at a time difficult.


Thats because there is'nt enough cash for the actual amount of money in the world.


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## The Cueball

DampDog said:


> To true. Most banks and building societies hate paying you out in cash even though it's your hard earned. If the pay cash they lose track of it, that's why they make drawing out more than a couple of £k at a time difficult.


My bank are now quite funny with me... If I am removing cash, it's usually a few grand at a time... so I used to get all the "extra" security questions...

Until one day, they had the cheek to ask me what I needed the money for...

I replied cocaine and guns - drug dealers and gangsters only take cash.

They laughed, I said I was serious, and what were they going to do about it, and if their answer was nothing, then to never ask me my business again....

Even had the manager out as well....

It got to the point where I said that if they have issues on how I spend my money, then to give me everything in my account, right there and then..and to close it down, and my current account, and my business account...

Obviously they weren't big enough to do that...:wall::wall:

I no longer get asked any questions when taking money out! :lol: 

:thumb:


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## DampDog

PugIain said:


> Thats because there is'nt enough cash for the actual amount of money in the world.


LOL.. There's plenty enough for my world..


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## PugIain

Now if there was'nt enough beer or pickled onions I might be concerned.


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## kev a

Money in the pocket of a tradesman is much more likely to get reinvested in the local economy than if the government get their hands on it.


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## hoikey

kev a said:


> Money in the pocket of a tradesman is much more likely to get reinvested in the local economy than if the government get their hands on it.


i like that way of looking at it


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## Marky-G-66

Does this mean then that next time the ice cream van pulls into my street and i ask for a couple of "ninety nines" with flakes in i should pay him with my debit card???:speechles


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## stangalang

This country was built on "you scratch my back I scratch yours". Once we moved away from that it went down hill. 

Cash in hand is different to claiming, cash in hand suggests I have earned it, by working, I may not pay tax on it but it will go back into the system when I spend itnn

My views have changed over the last few years, now I look at it this way, I am a hard working English man, my country has no interest in looking after me, so it's all on me to look after my family as best as I can. If that requires ome cash in hand so be it. If I then spend that with someone else, who spends it elsewhere isn't the country actually benefitting? It may not be being taxed but it is being spent!

Not to rant but the reason a lot of "minorities" thrive in this country is cause they earn it where they can and spend it amongst themselves, it's not rocket science! If the money isn't spent the country doesn't benefit. A little on the side is usually "spending money" IMO


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## OvlovMike

I think cash in hand is fine. I think not paying tax on that cash is wrong. At the end of the day, I have to pay tax on what I earn. Just because they get cold hard and then are 'asked' to pay tax on that rather than many folks like myself who get no say in the matter, doesn't mean it's a 'perk of the job'. A 'perk of the job' is doing your own stuff on the cheap, like I get my own computer kit on the cheap.

Don't bull**** me about how you paid tax on that cash already, so has everyone else who pays for anything legitimately.


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## ChuckH

Another slant...
When I was in business as in the building trade I was constantly up against the tradesmen that were dodging taxes and therefore offering discounts that those like Me could not give as all the guys on for Me had to be paid properly and the money had to be "clean" and I simply preferred to keep everything above board.

Also consider that what guarantee do We have if no receipts are issued ?

That said I do understand people wanting things cheaper..................


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## S63

A Government Minister telling us what is morally wrong!

David Gauke has obviously got a very short memory.
The Red tops even the broadsheets will have him under the microscope as we read this, will they find anything? Odds on they will.


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## mcinto65

What is morally wrong are the large earners not paying tax because of loop holes in the tax system.

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Xparent Blue Tapatalk 2


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## zaphod

Flipping paperboys - ruined this country.


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## The Cueball

mcinto65 said:


> What is morally wrong are the large earners not paying tax because of loop holes in the tax system.
> 
> Sent from my GT-I9100 using Xparent Blue Tapatalk 2


Don't agree with that TBH....

I pay as much tax as a "average earner" (in fact, just a little bit more ) I see no reason why I should pay anymore than this, just because I earn more than average.

I work dam hard for all my money, it's not fair on me to have to start giving 40/50% of it away just to pay more into a corrupt system, and to look after the people that can't be bothered.

Not going to happen.

:thumb:


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## stangalang

mcinto65 said:


> What is morally wrong are the large earners not paying tax because of loop holes in the tax system.
> 
> Sent from my GT-I9100 using Xparent Blue Tapatalk 2


Is it wrong or is it perhaps "not an accident"? Just cause the odd comedian gets public ally shamed nowand again, the reality is these loop holes have been around for years and years and are exploited everyday by the wealthy, who just happen to run the country. I'm just saying, if they can o it "legally" why should us hard workers feel bad?


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## Bero

It's an interesting subject - and the majority of people are on the side....it's ok if it benefits me.

On the other hand if you had a business that was working away, making a little money, building up an inheritance for your children and a real legacy of a business that will help your grand kids do better for themselves what you had when you were young. Then a new business starts up in your area doing cash jobs which can undercut you by 30-40% by not charging vat, national insurance or income tax. You suddenly can't win any work and are faced with closing the business, paying off your sons and also losing your house as you never created a Ltd company........is it ok then?

What about all the £5 hand wash places putting 'proper' tax paying detailers out of business (assuming they're not declaring everything....maybe they do)?



The Cueball said:


> Don't agree with that TBH....
> 
> I pay as much tax as a "average earner" (in fact, just a little bit more ) I see no reason why I should pay anymore than this, just because I earn more than average.
> 
> I work dam hard for all my money, it's not fair on me to have to start giving 40/50% of it away just to pay more into a corrupt system, and to look after the people that can't be bothered.
> 
> Not going to happen.
> 
> :thumb:


It's not fair I have to pay nearly 50%! But I don't have the option


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## DampDog

The Cueball said:


> Don't agree with that TBH....
> 
> I pay as much tax as a "average earner" (in fact, just a little bit more ) I see no reason why I should pay anymore than this, just because I earn more than average.
> 
> I work dam hard for all my money, it's not fair on me to have to start giving 40/50% of it away just to pay more into a corrupt system, and to look after the people that can't be bothered.
> 
> Not going to happen.
> 
> :thumb:


There's two separate issues there.

1. What's a "fair" level of tax for everyone.

2. And what the multinationals do, in not paying a fair share by using the complex systems in place to dodge what they should be.

The way it appears to work is if you're a high earner you pay proportionally more tax. (That may or not be fair depending on you view)

However the very high earners (millions) appear to be able to use "smoke and mirrors" to avoid/avaid paying anything like what they should.


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## JenJen

I don't see what the problem is. I pay over 40% in tax but I do know of a system where someone like me or the higher earner can receive 84% of the earnings thus paying low low tax and its very much legit. If people wanna do cash in hand jobs that's there look out and what they do with it once its handed over its not the client problem! They hace the service they wanted and the company/person can decide to declare or not!


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## The Cueball

DampDog said:


> There's two separate issues there.
> 
> 1. What's a "fair" level of tax for everyone.
> 
> 2. And what the multinationals do, in not paying a fair share by using the complex systems in place to dodge what they should be.
> 
> The way it appears to work is if you're a high earner you pay proportionally more tax. (That may or not be fair depending on you view)
> 
> However the very high earners (millions) appear to be able to use "smoke and mirrors" to avoid/avaid paying anything like what they should.


1) what's not fair is people paying more and funding the lives of the lazy...and the corrupt public officials... 

I'll tell you what... instead of my usual local kids hospital donation this year, I'll just pay tax... all that money that could help sick kids will then be lost to pay for meetings, cupcakes and wall paper... great way to spend it.... 

2) Again... fair share?!?! TBH, there doesn't need to be any complex systems, or dodges,... it's fairly straight forward and above all else LEGAL.

As I have said before... not happy about it, change the law... very, very simple.

:thumb:

<as usual, not aimed at you mate>

I do laugh at this country you know, it's always the same… people vilify 'fatcats' and high earning saying they don't do anything to deserve the money, the 'man on the street' works harder than they ever will, etc etc etc… and I'm happy with that, I can take the BS and the name calling… but here is a little idea… be big enough to then turn around and say keep your money.

Don't get upset at me making more money, and then demand it from me in order to fund lifestyles that are pushing this country into oblivion…

People just can't do that though eh.... 

Here is a second, even better idea... if you want/have kids... pay for them yourself... don't rely on tax payers money to fund your breeding... wow... thinking out of the box there eh...

:lol::lol::lol::lol:

:thumb:


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## OvlovMike

Absolutely. I know people who pay 40% and 50% tax who work harder than any sparky, plumber, joiner or builder I've ever seen. I've also seen people who pay the lower rate and those who don't even pass their personal allowance threshold who do absolutely nothing other than sit there browsing the internet.

Who deserves what in that instance?


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## justina3

you got to giggle at the word moral and goverment in the same sentance


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## stangalang

justina3 said:


> you got to giggle at the word moral and goverment in the same sentance


Exactly the point!


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## Damien89

Whats morally wrong is the tax on the fuel they rob from us!!


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## DampDog

The truth of the story is it's another MP trying to carve a notch for himself by making a song and dance over the way the world really works and has done since bartering began with two pigs for a sheep in the market place.

The political parties are desperate to be seen to be doing the right thing or have a "new idea" to sort it. I didn't even look to see who this one bats for.

The bottom line is the pot we all **** in is leaking like a sieve and they're clueless as to how correct it. Moreover it may well be impossible to correct anyway beacause pretty much every other country is in the same boat and have all become interdependant.

Oh, and when I use the word "fair" I mean what the government deems to be fair, which to be honset just changes with the wind.


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## The Cueball

It's all media sound bites mate...

:thumb:


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## Bero

DampDog said:


> The bottom line is the pot we all **** in is leaking like a sieve and they're clueless as to how correct it. Moreover it may well be impossible to correct anyway beacause pretty much every other country is in the same boat and have all become interdependant.


Pretty much what I said about Greece from the start......if you have a bucket with a hole in it you don't just keep topping it up with water, it does not solve the problem just wastes water and delays the inevitable.


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## zaphod

Bero said:


> Pretty much what I said about Greece from the start......if you have a bucket with a hole in it you don't just keep topping it up with water, it does not solve the problem just wastes water and delays the inevitable.


Rather like topping a car up with fuel, in a way, but at least you get some bangs for your bucks.
[/coat]


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## ChuckH

We could kick this ball around forever and still not reach what is fair and who is right ...

I chose to run My business straight and proper simply because I was to bloody scared of the system if I was caught on the fiddle..
I had a mate caught doing tax evasion and they simply massacred him !! OK I could have dodged a heap of cash over the years but didnt....

But let Me make something clear here I wish now I had !! Honestly I do....
Why ??

Well one example is the Government has moved the age at which I am allowed to draw a pension at..... I paid like some on her at the rate of 40% when over the threshold and not once was I offered a rebate if I was to agree to changes later on...

So would I pay cash in hand .........You bet !


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## stangalang

Pension is another annoyance chuck. You pay all your life, for them to keep moving he age you can draw it to just about the average age we die! And if we don't, we get no help with an elderly persons home, meanwhile those that have never paid into the system are STILL given everything. It's just not fair, and the very fact so many see it for what it is, and nothing gets done discusts me


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## GR33N

mcinto65 said:


> What is morally wrong are the large earners not paying tax because of loop holes in the tax system.
> 
> Sent from my GT-I9100 using Xparent Blue Tapatalk 2


Why should anyone, rich or poor pay 50% HALF!!! of what they earn in tax?

Cash for nothing and massive tax for success and high earning ... any wonder we are where we are in this country.

Why not, don't work, dont earn. Earn money, pay a fair amount?


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## Ross

More cash is hand the better if you ask me.


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## Goju5

Lets look at MPs allowances and "expenses" on top of their salaries etc etc. THEN we can get to the REAL core of what is morally wrong in this financial climate.


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## DampDog

GR33N said:


> Why should anyone, rich or poor pay 50% HALF!!! of what they earn in tax?


I think 50% would probaly be better than what we have now. Income tax, N.I, Vat, fuel duty, tax on savings (which is just beyond me, you've paid the tax once on it!!) duty on spirits, car Tax, road tax. I bet if you did a tally it would be close to 60-70%.

It's beyond a joke really.


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## GR33N

DampDog said:


> I think 50% would probaly be better than what we have now. Income tax, N.I, Vat, fuel duty, tax on savings (which is just beyond me, you've paid the tax once on it!!) duty on spirits, car Tax, road tax. I bet if you did a tally it would be close to 60-70%.
> 
> It's beyond a joke really.


True. Its a joke, they're promoting a society for people to cut corners IMO


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## Edstrung

Awww you guys 



I would LOVE to earn enough to pay 40% on tax 


One day, one day :thumb: For now though i keep on working, employed, and that wont last long as I am really feeling the need to work for myself else face eternal disappointment.

Hopefully by then a flat rate tax would have been brought in, one rate on income and spendings, everyone knows where they stand, no 'confusion' or grey areas, just tax in tax out tadaaaaa. I won't hold my breath though, I'll just start working on the business, 4 weeks to go until current contract is up 

One thing for my that is morally wrong, is VAT on Fuel Duty. Tax on Tax is really taking the **** out of us all. You pay tax on your earnings, Road Tax on the car to drive it along with the Insurance Premium Tax to drive it, lube yourself up for the fuel duty, then they go and fish hook you with the VAT on top of the Duty as well as the fuel and shipping/selling costs :doublesho

Can't ask for cash price at the pump


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## adlem

It's all been blown out of proportion imo.

If a small trader does a private job on the side for a bit of spending money and saves a few quid in tax, so be it. He isn't using legal loop-holes to avoid paying massive amounts of tax on his high-earnings, then claiming expenses for a family member to 'work' and then claiming £90 back from the tax-payer for changing a lightbulb...


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## DetailMe

stangalang said:


> This country was built on "you scratch my back I scratch yours". Once we moved away from that it went down hill.
> 
> Cash in hand is different to claiming, cash in hand suggests I have earned it, by working, I may not pay tax on it but it will go back into the system when I spend itnn
> 
> My views have changed over the last few years, now I look at it this way, I am a hard working English man, my country has no interest in looking after me, so it's all on me to look after my family as best as I can. If that requires ome cash in hand so be it. If I then spend that with someone else, who spends it elsewhere isn't the country actually benefitting? It may not be being taxed but it is being spent!
> 
> Not to rant but the reason a lot of "minorities" thrive in this country is cause they earn it where they can and spend it amongst themselves, it's not rocket science! If the money isn't spent the country doesn't benefit. A little on the side is usually "spending money" IMO


Bravo sir
! And how the hell do they have the neck to even bring morales into it after all the fraudulent expenses claims they have been doing! Utter joke this country!


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## uruk hai

That man has the brass neck to lecture us about "morals" when there is a Tory who's a convicted liar sitting in the House of Lords !

If it wasn't so patronising and pathetic it would be funny


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## FiestaDan

cash is always best


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## Ross




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## kh904

Pretty much agree with everyone here!

I was listening to talk radio this morning and this very subject was brought up. One comment a caller made as who else benefits (other than the government)? 
That's right the banks who earn more interest!

Also aren't the banks trying to end the use of cheques? I still use them personally!

What about those who sell items on ebay (not as a business, just clearing personal items), Is that considered an income that nobody really declares? 

Also this follows the plan for the cashless (on an implanted microchip) society that a few of us have been talking about that these bankers want!
The excuse will be to stop tax, benefit cheats, terrorism & drug money laundering etc!

I think other currency systems will become more popular like bitcoin (electronic), gold & silver coins


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## dcj

Marky-G-66 said:


> Does this mean then that next time the ice cream van pulls into my street and i ask for a couple of "ninety nines" with flakes in i should pay him with my debit card???:speechles


No thats just silly,but you do need to ask for a receipt.:thumb:


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## SqueakyCleanV70

Morally wrong is charging £475 to tax a Range Rover


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## tmitch45

The governmaent are as usual going for the easy target (the workers) and trying to highlight that we are infact just like all the multi national companies, polititions and celebs who dodge tax and what a load of rubbish it is too.

If just a few celebs were made to pay full and propper tax or if some of these huge companies paid tax at the correct level then things would be much better for all of us and they wouldn't be going after people who save the odd £30-40 here and there!

I'm sure if all the UK super rich inc the F1 guys and music industry guys and the like living in monaco who choose to avoid paying as much or any UK tax paid at the rate they should they (the government) would be millions better off!!

When will the government get the Idea and stop going after the average UK worker and start to tackle the real issues of :-

1. People sponging off the state and false claims for sickness benifit
2. All the illegal immigrants who the government has failed to deport
3. Closing loop holes in the tax law to make the rich and famous pay what they should.


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## Ross

SqueakyCleanV70 said:


> Morally wrong is charging £475 to tax a Range Rover


£445 to tax my Subaru makes me feel sick


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## millns84

Ross said:


> £445 to tax mt Subaru makes me feel sick


Well they've got to discourage people from driving proper cars as they have some CO2 emissions targets to meet which will mean huge fines for the government if they don't hit them...

IIRC 20% of all CO2 is emitted from vehicles. Perhaps they should concentrate on the remaining 80% or are motorists too much of a soft target?


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## kh904

dcj said:


> No thats just silly,but you do need to ask for a receipt.:thumb:


I think that's why the contact(less?) pay cards are being pushed. So you can pay for small (or big) amounts just by tapping your card on the payment machine - basically like an Oyster card!

Anyway, i believe under 10% of so-called money in the economy is hard cash, the rest is digital, so i don't believe the government loses as much tax to make that much difference to spend this amount of resources on. The big multinationals like vodafone who don't pay their fair share, and the corrupt politicians who waste horrendous amount of tax money are the ones who need investigating!

I wonder if the Bank of England pay any taxes? 

Also i wonder how many politicians have Limited companies and pay themselves via dividends which are taxed at a lower rate (cough cough Ken Livingston is one example)!
I guess there's nothing immoral there then!


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## kh904

Maybe eye-opening to many of you:






Hit's the nail on the head :lol: -






:thumb:


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## millns84

kh904 said:


> Maybe eye-opening to many of you:
> 
> :thumb:


"Oi, we don't need any of that there brainwashin' around these parts!!"

CENSOR CENSOR CENSOR!!!


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## GR33N

RFID chips in people, are you ****ing joking! RFID cloning is a piece of **** for a start, not even close to being a secure way for money and a national or global database for everyones money! Come on now, the government have trying for 10 years to upgrade the NHS systems and failed every time, how is this ever going work?

Its scaremongering and nothing more IMO!


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## chud786

Customers who ask for a "cash price" know exactly what they are asking for! i.e if I pay you cash you can lose this job and not pay tax or vat and I'll get a cheaper job.
If they wanted to negotiate a discount they should ask for one,everyone knows what is inferred by "cash".
If a customer asks me for a cash price I tell them it's the same price however you choose to pay me,after all why should I take a risk just so someone(who I don't even Know)can have what they want.


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## silverback

you have to laugh dont you,politicians talking of morals and doing the right thing :lol: we are taxed over and over and any chance i have to save a few quid i will take.the government she lead by example if there that arsed about it.unbelievable!


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## dcj

As we watched the old unemployed benefit seekers move out of their home a few weeks ago and take their 42" TV with them,and then the next day the new set of unemployed benefit seekers move in and have a Sky dish installed to watch on their 42" TV I thought to myself thank God I do everything by the book and every penny is declared or these poor mites would have to struggle like many normal working people and watch Freeview on a smaller screen.

Thats where this country is morally wrong you blinkered Tory ****.


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## m1pui

kh904 said:


> I think that's why the contact(less?) pay cards are being pushed. So you can pay for small (or big) amounts just by tapping your card on the payment machine - basically like an Oyster card!


Unless the banks/card processors start removing their charges & commissions for accepting card payments I don't see this being embraced, at least willingly, by all retailers.

Shops aren't trying to be awkward when they have a "minimum spend for card payments. We genuinely are just being fleeced by banks for accepting them. Tellingly though, minimum spend is actually against T&C's given out by most of the companies (streamline for example), by rights retailers are supposed to accept card payments for any/every amount someone wishes to pay.


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## kh904

I agree with you, but this will be pushed more and more onto retailers.

I also understand the charges for card processing, it's a joke (i work in the accounts of a retail company)! 
The problem is there are also charges for banking cash!!!


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## The Cueball

kh904 said:


> I agree with you, but this will be pushed more and more onto retailers.
> 
> I also understand the charges for card processing, it's a joke (i work in the accounts of a retail company)!
> The problem is there are also charges for banking cash!!!


Try working with JP Morgan... (yes I know, I know )

I've had so many charges, and fights since we moved it's un real...

I have mostly got all our money back after I prove time and time again it's their own fault... but jeez oh!

It's also taken them 4 years... yes 4 years to understand our company address.....

None of the staff seem to know anything about their history either... which I do love to chat to them about!

:devil::devil::devil::devil:

:lol:

:thumb:


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## kh904

GR33N said:


> RFID chips in people, are you ****ing joking! RFID cloning is a piece of **** for a start, not even close to being a secure way for money and a national or global database for everyones money! Come on now, the government have trying for 10 years to upgrade the NHS systems and failed every time, how is this ever going work?
> 
> Its scaremongering and nothing more IMO!


It may seem like it's scaremongering but it's very possible (i think the technology is patented by IBM iirc). Look at how Sky TV viewing cards work (Sky can scramble/unscramble specific channels almost instantaneous when you call up and buy a channel/film/sports event). They just send a signal to your specific card.
There are numerous scientific papers that have talked about this, and even the global bankers like Nick Rockefeller has talked about it as a goal.

We have chips in pets for years, and we know technology advances at a rapid rate.

We have an RFID chip in all new UK Passports, the government in the past tried to introduce national ID cards as a stepping stone.











A highly recommended watch (there's some incredible technology shown)!

i don't think it's scaremongering at all - the fact will speak for itself

:thumb:


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## kh904

Forget the cash in hand people, i think these people is who we should be after:

http://www.getoutofdebtfree.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=60&t=38518


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## Willows-dad

dcj said:


> As we watched the old unemployed benefit seekers move out of their home a few weeks ago and take their 42" TV with them,and then the next day the new set of unemployed benefit seekers move in and have a Sky dish installed to watch on their 42" TV I thought to myself thank God I do everything by the book and every penny is declared or these poor mites would have to struggle like many normal working people and watch Freeview on a smaller screen.
> 
> Thats where this country is morally wrong you blinkered Tory ****.


This is what really grinds my gears. When I bought my house I got what I could afford with the booming prices at the time. I went interest only on the mortgage for 2 years to help while we got sorted and had our first child. Then the bottom fell out of the market. I now earn the money where I can afford a better place, but I'm stuck because the house is in negative equity and we can't afford to sell at a loss. Meanwhile I look up and down my street and see asylum seekers and scroungers that haven't worked a day in their lives, yet they sit back watching their big tv whilst chatting on their iPhones and playing on their iPads bought from credit that they'll just say they can't afford to pay back. And they wonder why so many people don't do everything by the book. They only have themselves to blame.


----------



## GR33N

kh904 said:


> It may seem like it's scaremongering but it's very possible (i think the technology is patented by IBM iirc). Look at how Sky TV viewing cards work (Sky can scramble/unscramble specific channels almost instantaneous when you call up and buy a channel/film/sports event). They just send a signal to your specific card.
> There are numerous scientific papers that have talked about this, and even the global bankers like Nick Rockefeller has talked about it as a goal.
> 
> We have chips in pets for years, and we know technology advances at a rapid rate.
> 
> We have an RFID chip in all new UK Passports, the government in the past tried to introduce national ID cards as a stepping stone.
> 
> RFID CHIP EVERYONE-FEDERAL LAW - YouTube
> 
> A highly recommended watch (there's some incredible technology shown)!
> 
> i don't think it's scaremongering at all - the fact will speak for itself
> 
> :thumb:


I see all the technology, and understand it well but I don't see people being RFID chipped and I defiantly don't see them being used to hold your entire wealth.

I havent watched the above video, but I will when I get back from the gym in an couple of hours, as for the first video on the other page, Im ashamed to say I dont know the chap and had never heard of him until I Googled him. However, whilst sat watching the video, everything about him screamed at me that he was in the film/movie business which he was partly.

Its all a bit too much Hollywood IMO, like the film InTime with Justin Timberlake although their currency is time not cash.

There are plenty of sources out there about RFID cloning, be it Oyster cards, passports, building keys etc. RFID is hideously insecure simply by its very nature and to me is a very poor way of holding any data or money.


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## kh904

I do recommend watching the whole interview of 'Aaron Russo - Reflections & warnings' on youtube. His other works worth watching are 'Mad as hell' & 'Freedom to Fascism'

:thumb:


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## TubbyTwo

Ross said:


> £445 to tax my Subaru makes me feel sick


If it makes you feel any better my Supra TT is only £280 per year :thumb:


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## Bero

GR33N said:


> I see all the technology, and understand it well but I don't see people being RFID chipped and I defiantly don't see them being used to hold your entire wealth.
> 
> I havent watched the above video, but I will when I get back from the gym in an couple of hours, as for the first video on the other page, Im ashamed to say I dont know the chap and had never heard of him until I Googled him. However, whilst sat watching the video, everything about him screamed at me that he was in the film/movie business which he was partly.
> 
> Its all a bit too much Hollywood IMO, like the film InTime with Justin Timberlake although their currency is time not cash.
> 
> There are plenty of sources out there about RFID cloning, be it Oyster cards, passports, building keys etc. RFID is hideously insecure simply by its very nature and to me is a very poor way of holding any data or money.


Of course it will not be an overnight transition. BUT: -

*Banks want it*
Less cost buying ATMs and logistics, risk and time restocking all these machines.

*Shops want it*
Quick and easy at Point of Sale, less costs for buying change and banking notes and time taken to do this....less risk of being held up.

*Govt want it*
Can track everyone and everything and stop or make it more difficult to a cash economy to exist.

*People will not oppose it....maybe fight for it*
Simple convenience or believe all the 'sales talk'

"Imagine a pedophile abducts your child....well not we can track his every movment/purchase in real time and stop his access to money if we want"
or
"Imagine we can track terrorists in real time and instantly freeze their money if they suddenly pose a greater threat like trying to buy 50 gallons of X,Y or Z, we can arrest them within 5 mins of this occurring"
or
"drug dealers will not be able to move money about which will severely restrict the drug trade...possibly eliminate it"

But criminals by definition don't play be the rules.....and find ways round things, but the law abiding citizens lose a little of their freedom.

Don't believe it's coming? Although it has negligible success so far with credit cards, people don't want to use it or even know their card has the tech and shops don't have the demand to install them. But the new iPhone has a wallet app included, this almost certainly means this or the following iPhone will have NFC/RFID tech. This will be the biggest driving force for smart pay as consumers will want to use it and shops will be pushed to accept it....as will airports.....train stations....petrol stations etc. And so it begins.........banks start removing ATM from the high street and levy charges for accessing your own money from the remaining ATMs which reduces their use further so more are decommissioned.....then finding an ATM becomes a chore and more people start using 'Smart' Pay options and so shops start a minimum spend before they'll accept cash. :devil:


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## Bero

Ross said:


> £445 to tax my Subaru makes me feel sick


You need to step up to the mans Subaru......I'm £475 :devil:


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## The Cueball

Bero said:


> But criminals by definition don't play be the rules.....and find ways round things, but the law abiding citizens lose a little of their freedom.


Be careful, you are beginning to sound like me! :lol:

I always point this out to people… criminals by their very definition and nature will not abide by the LAWS… either old or new…

They WILL NOT suddenly wake up one day and say, "you know what, this new law to stop me makes sense, and I'll just stop what I'm doing"

So everything they are putting in place to help "protect" people and to "catch" these types are nothing of the sort......

They are there to control and reduce the freedom of the 'normal' citizen….

Of course, you have people that are OK with this, and say well if you have nothing to hide……but I am entitled to freedom and privacy in my life….and I do not want my every single move and action looked into and analysed by someone and for them to pass comment or judgement on what they have been told is right and just....all because I don't "fit" into a mold.

We already have far too much of that in this world already (IMO)

Watch for the 'drones' at the Olympics and see what happens with them…. 

:thumb:


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## kh904

Spot on Bero & Cueball!

P.S. The US have ordered 30,000 drones!!!!

I do urge everyone watch the RFID video above as it shows that it's already here, they merely just trying to sell it, using the drip feed method!


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## Hotchy

Id love to be able to do something where id earn some extra on the side. I picked the wrong career path


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## justina3

Bero said:


> Of course it will not be an overnight transition. BUT: -
> 
> *Banks want it*
> Less cost buying ATMs and logistics, risk and time restocking all these machines.
> 
> *Shops want it*
> Quick and easy at Point of Sale, less costs for buying change and banking notes and time taken to do this....less risk of being held up.
> 
> *Govt want it*
> Can track everyone and everything and stop or make it more difficult to a cash economy to exist.
> 
> *People will not oppose it....maybe fight for it*
> Simple convenience or believe all the 'sales talk'
> 
> "Imagine a pedophile abducts your child....well not we can track his every movment/purchase in real time and stop his access to money if we want"
> or
> "Imagine we can track terrorists in real time and instantly freeze their money if they suddenly pose a greater threat like trying to buy 50 gallons of X,Y or Z, we can arrest them within 5 mins of this occurring"
> or
> "drug dealers will not be able to move money about which will severely restrict the drug trade...possibly eliminate it"
> 
> But criminals by definition don't play be the rules.....and find ways round things, but the law abiding citizens lose a little of their freedom.
> 
> Don't believe it's coming? Although it has negligible success so far with credit cards, people don't want to use it or even know their card has the tech and shops don't have the demand to install them. But the new iPhone has a wallet app included, this almost certainly means this or the following iPhone will have NFC/RFID tech. This will be the biggest driving force for smart pay as consumers will want to use it and shops will be pushed to accept it....as will airports.....train stations....petrol stations etc. And so it begins.........banks start removing ATM from the high street and levy charges for accessing your own money from the remaining ATMs which reduces their use further so more are decommissioned.....then finding an ATM becomes a chore and more people start using 'Smart' Pay options and so shops start a minimum spend before they'll accept cash. :devil:


agree, but not all shops want it, 
banks chanrge a lot more to bank cash than credit or debit cards, from experience far less chance of staff ripping me of with card payments over cash in the till, far less chance of staff not getting around to going to the bank ect, so for me as a shop keeper would prefer card payment all day long


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## stangalang

TubbyTwo said:


> If it makes you feel any better my Supra TT is only £280 per year :thumb:


If it makes you feel any better my mustang is free :thumb:


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## TubbyTwo

stangalang said:


> If it makes you feel any better my mustang is free :thumb:


I will only feel better if ypu post a picture


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## stangalang

TubbyTwo said:


> I will only feel better if ypu post a picture


Lol, it's the green one

http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=175506&page=6&highlight=Yorkshire+meet


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## m1pui

justina3 said:


> agree, but not all shops want it,
> banks chanrge a lot more to bank cash than credit or debit cards, from experience far less chance of staff ripping me of with card payments over cash in the till, far less chance of staff not getting around to going to the bank ect, so for me as a shop keeper would prefer card payment all day long


Just out of interest, what kind of shop do you have and do you accept all card payments, no matter how small the amount?


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## justina3

m1pui said:


> Just out of interest, what kind of shop do you have and do you accept all card payments, no matter how small the amount?


we sell car radios alarms phone kits ect and next door we have a car sales so deposits and sometimes finial payments, we dont sell anything less than a tenner so thats the min spend i have never charged a percentage for small transactions always felt that to be a bit petty


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## Tricky Red

SqueakyCleanV70 said:


> Morally wrong is charging £475 to tax a Range Rover


I'd make it a grand. 

But only on new vehicles. I think that it is a disgrace that older vehicles that polluted more when the government couldn't give a damn about emissions are penalised in the same way. Completely unfair tax against those who probably can't afford a newer more economical car.


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## GR33N

I hear your positives for it all, I really do, but NFC and RFID payments are for small amounts because of security and/or the device/card being stolen. Theres no way of securing it all, even with a chip in the body, you'll just have criminals cutting it out of people for their money :lol:

Maybe its because I know how easy RFID cloning is that I really dont see it happening, you can walk by people carrying oyster cards, scan their card, clone their details onto another card and away you go. I dont see how you could every truly secure vast sums of money on one chip.

So if you cant do that, how long before people just clone chips? or generate entirely new chips with any sum of money they like, it would be nigh on untraceable you just keep generating and/or cloning RFID chips.

and on the subject of being tracked through the RFID, you can do that on most phone that people carry around now, and you can easily do it from credit/debit card transactions ... so I dont personally see that as an argument against them.

Certainly an interesting subject though, and im happy im studying what im studying at uni  :lol:

EDIT:

Something else ive just thought of, this would have to be implemented simultaneously on an international scale, because otherwise how can you travel between countries ... unless there's a global currency? Which I know has been discussed on here before.


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## TubbyTwo

stangalang said:


> Lol, it's the green one
> 
> http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=175506&page=6&highlight=Yorkshire+meet


Thats rather sexy, fast back as well if im not wrong?

Stunning motor!


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## m1pui

justina3 said:


> we sell car radios alarms phone kits ect and next door we have a car sales so deposits and sometimes finial payments, we dont sell anything less than a tenner so thats the min spend i have never charged a percentage for small transactions always felt that to be a bit petty


It does sound petty, especially from a consumer pov, but I'm sure you'd see the other side if you had customers wanting to put single items costing pence, rather than several pounds on a card transaction.

Our cheapest item we regularly sell is £1.20 and it's galling when you've got a party of half a dozen or so people who all want to pay separately. I've got friends with newsagents/general dealers who have people trying to buy a newspaper or a pack of chewing gum with a card. We joke that it'd be cheaper for him to just give them it for free than accept a card but it's not far wrong really!


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## Edstrung

I bought a 28 gram bar of 999.9 german feingold about 10 years ago, I don't do jewelery and I don't wear a watch, but I can appreciate the colour at least  Since then it has doubled and more in value, I think I might try and buy more just in case it gets a bit hard to get hold of cash in the future :speechles

I would hope that it wouldn't go that way though, as it would be a complete reversal of society. As I'm sure you are aware the great majority of the mined gold in the world does not sit safely in Fort Knox (safely, but still not yours or mine  ). The gold reserves of the world are probably stored on the carpets and in the drawers of the types that have spent the last 20 or more years mining the largest repository of gold in the world. Argos. Oh man, can you imagine the riches they have had appear from the laminated book of dreams over the years. Artwork will get you nowhere, but a 'arf sofrin will change the world as we know it :doublesho:lol:


And GR33N, it would not be hard at all to stagger the implementation, as previously said you just put a charge on getting hold of physical money for another country that doesn't use your currency. Right now we call it commission. I'm sure they'd still be happy to service your account in the future, from numbers on a screen to bits of paper that people call money, for a charge


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## kh904

GR33N said:


> I hear your positives for it all, I really do, but NFC and RFID payments are for small amounts because of security and/or the device/card being stolen. Theres no way of securing it all, even with a chip in the body, you'll just have criminals cutting it out of people for their money :lol:
> 
> Maybe its because I know how easy RFID cloning is that I really dont see it happening, you can walk by people carrying oyster cards, scan their card, clone their details onto another card and away you go. I dont see how you could every truly secure vast sums of money on one chip.
> 
> So if you cant do that, how long before people just clone chips? or generate entirely new chips with any sum of money they like, it would be nigh on untraceable you just keep generating and/or cloning RFID chips.
> 
> and on the subject of being tracked through the RFID, you can do that on most phone that people carry around now, and you can easily do it from credit/debit card transactions ... so I dont personally see that as an argument against them.
> 
> Certainly an interesting subject though, and im happy im studying what im studying at uni  :lol:
> 
> EDIT:
> *
> Something else ive just thought of, this would have to be implemented simultaneously on an international scale, because otherwise how can you travel between countries ... unless there's a global currency? Which I know has been discussed on here before.*


As i now understand the money is not actually on the chip itself, the chip only gives access to a database account. That's what i understand from the info from the video (i could be wrong on that).

On the bold point, yes it would eventually be a global currency :thumb:


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## kh904

Edstrung said:


> I bought a 28 gram bar of 999.9 german feingold about 10 years ago, I don't do jewelery and I don't wear a watch, but I can appreciate the colour at least  Since then it has doubled and more in value, I think I might try and buy more just in case it gets a bit hard to get hold of cash in the future :speechles
> 
> I would hope that it wouldn't go that way though, as it would be a complete reversal of society. As I'm sure you are aware the great majority of the mined gold in the world does not sit safely in Fort Knox (safely, but still not yours or mine  ). The gold reserves of the world are probably stored on the carpets and in the drawers of the types that have spent the last 20 or more years mining the largest repository of gold in the world. Argos. Oh man, can you imagine the riches they have had appear from the laminated book of dreams over the years. Artwork will get you nowhere, but a 'arf sofrin will change the world as we know it :doublesho:lol:
> 
> And GR33N, it would not be hard at all to stagger the implementation, as previously said you just put a charge on getting hold of physical money for another country that doesn't use your currency. Right now we call it commission. I'm sure they'd still be happy to service your account in the future, from numbers on a screen to bits of paper that people call money, for a charge


I'm very interested in buying physical gold & silver, i'll really appreciate some advice on where to go etc! :thumb:


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## Alzak

kh904 said:


> I'm very interested in buying physical gold & silver, i'll really appreciate some advice on where to go etc! :thumb:


http://www.bullionbypost.co.uk/?gclid=CJSRwcnPtbECFa4mtAod-UkAqw


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## Ross

kh904 said:


> I'm very interested in buying physical gold & silver, i'll really appreciate some advice on *where to go* etc! :thumb:


Gordon Brown has some


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## kh904

Ross said:


> Gordon Brown has some


I bet he got a nice discount on it!


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## Guest

Haha, Aaron russo!! Here's a link I like about him.

You may need to change the link as the swear filter will not like the title.



kh904 said:


> Maybe eye-opening to many of you:
> 
> Aaron Russo says Rockefeller told him of One World gov't and RFID chips - YouTube
> 
> Hit's the nail on the head :lol: -
> 
> GEORGE CARLIN - Upper Class Pays No Taxes - YouTube
> 
> :thumb:


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## PaulN

DampDog said:


> To true. Most banks and building societies hate paying you out in cash even though it's your hard earned. If the pay cash they lose track of it, that's why they make drawing out more than a couple of £k at a time difficult.
> 
> I take the view that once I've paid my tax as I've earned it, what I choose to to with my cash is my business. Mr taxman has quite enough from me thank you very much. Before they point their ever prying eye at the average working bloke they need to put their house in order with how the multinationals move billions around the world to avaid paying tax.


First time in a long while i needed to draw a large sum of money out in cash recently and was suprised how easy it was in a TSB. I could have drawn upto £5-6k in bank via my card and pin, or more with just my card and the clerk doing it for me.

Came out with a brown envelope and didnt trust a single paerson around me.

Wonder how much each branch has to carry just in case? I know large banks need to be able to cover all there accounts each day.


----------



## kh904

PaulN said:


> Wonder how much each branch has to carry just in case? I know large banks need to be able to cover all there accounts each day.


That would be interesting to know if that's true though (i don't believe it is).
Only a tiny fraction of the money supply is actually cash, that's probably why many banks need notice to withdraw say over £500-1000 cash a day per customer.


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## PaulN

Ahhhh I was thinking banks have to beable to cover their loans. 

I guess they don't have to beagle to cover accounts or Nothern Rock would have been ok.


----------



## The Cueball

PaulN said:


> Ahhhh I was thinking banks have to beable to cover their loans.
> 
> I guess they don't have to *beagle* to cover accounts or Nothern Rock would have been ok.


----------



## Bero

The Cueball said:


>


Whats the confusion for? :thumb: :lol:
Link


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## DampDog

It's not a beagle, it's an "Asset Hound"...:lol::lol::lol:


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## Bero

Bero said:


> Of course it will not be an overnight transition. BUT: -
> 
> *Banks want it*
> Less cost buying ATMs and logistics, risk and time restocking all these machines.
> .............
> And so it begins.........*banks start removing ATM from the high street* and levy charges for accessing your own money from the remaining ATMs which reduces their use further so more are decommissioned.....then finding an ATM becomes a chore and more people start using 'Smart' Pay options and so shops start a minimum spend before they'll accept cash. :devil:





macrumors.com yesterday said:


> Bank of America 'has finally added mobile check deposit to its iPhone and iPad apps. 'customers can remotely deposit up to $5,000 in checks per month by taking photographs of the front and back of their checks'
> 
> Bank of America has announced a widespread reduction in its ATM and branch networks to save costs. The bank has said it is *dropping 1,536 ATMs* from its network.


I said it would not be happening overnight......but sooner rather than later by the looks of it!


----------



## kh904

GR33N said:


> I see all the technology, and understand it well but I don't see people being RFID chipped and I defiantly don't see them being used to hold your entire wealth.
> 
> I havent watched the above video, but I will when I get back from the gym in an couple of hours, as for the first video on the other page, Im ashamed to say I dont know the chap and had never heard of him until I Googled him. However, whilst sat watching the video, everything about him screamed at me that he was in the film/movie business which he was partly.
> 
> Its all a bit too much Hollywood IMO, like the film InTime with Justin Timberlake although their currency is time not cash.
> 
> There are plenty of sources out there about RFID cloning, be it Oyster cards, passports, building keys etc. RFID is hideously insecure simply by its very nature and to me is a very poor way of holding any data or money.


Hi Gr33n So have you managed to watch those videos yet (especially the longer one)?


----------



## GR33N

kh904 said:


> Hi Gr33n So have you managed to watch those videos yet (especially the longer one)?


I didnt mate no, ill have a watch tonight if i get time  I got snowed under with work last week


----------



## kh904

GR33N said:


> I hear your positives for it all, I really do, but NFC and RFID payments are for small amounts because of security and/or the device/card being stolen. Theres no way of securing it all, even with a chip in the body, you'll just have criminals cutting it out of people for their money :lol:
> 
> Maybe its because I know how easy RFID cloning is that I really dont see it happening, you can walk by people carrying oyster cards, scan their card, clone their details onto another card and away you go. I dont see how you could every truly secure vast sums of money on one chip.
> 
> So if you cant do that, how long before people just clone chips? or generate entirely new chips with any sum of money they like, it would be nigh on untraceable you just keep generating and/or cloning RFID chips.
> 
> and on the subject of being tracked through the RFID, you can do that on most phone that people carry around now, and you can easily do it from credit/debit card transactions ... so I dont personally see that as an argument against them.
> 
> Certainly an interesting subject though, and im happy im studying what im studying at uni  :lol:
> 
> EDIT:
> 
> Something else ive just thought of, this would have to be implemented simultaneously on an international scale, because otherwise how can you travel between countries ... unless there's a global currency? Which I know has been discussed on here before.


Looks like it's slowly being rolled out!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/3697940.stm


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## GR33N

Only just remembered about this again, but they are now on my youtube "to watch" list. Ive also got a dissertation to write next year for my degree, this could be a good topic :thumb:


----------



## kh904

GR33N said:


> Only just remembered about this again, but they are now on my youtube "to watch" list. Ive also got a dissertation to write next year for my degree, this could be a good topic :thumb:


What's your dissertation about?


----------

