# Waterless Detailing



## SteveB

Hi chaps

I've been reading the eco section of DW with great interest. Having launched my own waterless detail business in October I'm completely been behind this future of cleaning technology. As a detailer for over twenty years I recently decided to switch and haven't looked back. Like so many established detailers I was really scepticle and didn't think that I could make the change. One of the hardest selling points was convincing it actually worked, and in some cases, had better results that traditional car shampoo. 

Unlike countries such as Australia where waterless valeting / detailing is the norm, the UK is still slow to start the ball rolling and gradually make the switch over. More and more are realising the potential yet others seem convinced that this is just a fad and won't take off. I can only speak from experience and if you had asked me a year ago, I too would have said that waterless detailing especially, wouldn't be beneficial to my business nor would it be the way to go. It took me a while to cut out water / shampoo completely but when I found the right waterless cleaner I became completely hooked. In fact, I switched to mixing and producing my own waterless cleaner which in the long run has worked out to be less costly than buying the established brands. 

I haven't regreted making the change, and in fact, it's created more interest than if I had stayed as a traditional detailer. I still have the same process when detailing and haven't changed the way I work, but it's cut out lots of small expenses I don't need to worry about anymore. For example, I don't need a van to haul around a clumsey water tank, I don't need to waste fuel on a generator to power the jet wash, and more importantly, I can work in just about any space or location. This eventually lead to selling my van and now I just work out of the car. 

As for becoming a completely waterless detailing industry, that's up to others to start making the change. I would recommend anyone to make the switch, but more importantly we as a detailing community must start asking questions and rightly so, debating this important subject.


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## drive 'n' shine

Would love to see how you clean a muddy salt ridden car without water!


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## Rich

Out of interest what processes methods do you use for cleaning undercarriages and wheel arches to a concours level of cleanliness without water?

With products like QEW and ONR I do ok until it comes to the really grimy bits !


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## Bigpikle

Rich said:


> Out of interest what processes methods do you use for cleaning undercarriages and wheel arches to a concours level of cleanliness without water?
> 
> With products like QEW and ONR I do ok until it comes to the really grimy bits !


I'm not sure that 'concours level' of cleanliness of undercarriage is really a very typical need for most people though... The OP talks about his business and I bet there are very few detailers here who detail other people's cars to a concours level 'underneath'. I know a few of us do, for show cars etc, but even on DW I bet that is <1%. I'd agree that waterless might make that more difficult, but maybe not?

Have you tried a pre-spray on ONR/QW on the grimy bits - with a mister etc? I did our Audi the other day, which was minging behind the wheel arches and lower rear bumper. A pre-spray with ONR solution softened the dirt a lot and meant that an MF 'picked it up' without needing it to be wiped eg more of a dab just lifted it up. No marring from that.

There are still times when you need a pre-rinse with ONR, when a really dirty car with loads of debris on t, but a simple PW water rinse to remove the 'bits' is usually all thats needed


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## Relaited

Steve B,

Water is the new Oil … welcome to jumping in the pool! 

There are a coupel of us that write articles and get them published on Water $mart Eco Detailing. The topic is about change, and the opportunities that a Water $mart model brings. Yes, one of the best I think is that you can loose the traditionally large van, or pick up with trailer. All that money, and upkeep, havign to have a dedicated work vehcile. Will share when published. Yvan is a coauthor. 

It works for me, I don’t see any muddy cars, and I do not do a concourse detailing.

Here’s an idea … put a high line Paint Sealant on … the dirt will sit on top, make it easier to clean.

I just do no tget that this tool is not part of an acceptable set. Just plain stubborness in my opinion … no way every single vehciel is too dirty , no way.

So, to turn the tables on the nay sayers, take a picture of every car you service next week, and prove to me that none are acceptable to use a water $mart service like a No Rinse or waterless.

Any takers?

-jim:wall:


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## caledonia

I am current trying out these wash techniques. And I will keep you posted on the out comes.
I have a few on going trials at the moment. Waterless and ONR. Looking to add QEW to my collection.
Gordon


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## richjohnhughes

i am very interested in this - but as yet i have NOT seen the advantages. 

all pro's should be collecting waste water - and if they are doing this, why would you want a waterless wash?


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## Auto Finesse

Ahhhhhhh Not another one........... Yawn............

Id like to see you turn this :










In to this:










With out water, these are old pics of mine but i did a hard top 900T last week in exactly if not worse condition after the 50mile trip to ours,  id like to see you clean that with your detail spray and terry towel LOL.


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## richjohnhughes

*


Relaited said:



Steve B,

Water is the new Oil … welcome to jumping in the pool!

Thames water who supplies water to the south of england leaks away in-excess of 600 million liters of clean drinking water EVERYDAY. and then people say we should be saving water! !!!!!

Click to expand...

*


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## Deanoecosse

Conserving water is an admirable goal and maybe in the warmer countries who stuggle with water shortages, such as the US then waterless detailing may be a way forward. But in a country like the UK, with the crap weather we get, salt laden roads covered in crap, then I really can't see waterless detailing taking off,because I think its impossible to wash a salt covered car or one caked in dirt & moss like the Saab in JamesB's post without using water. 
There's been a few posts about the waterless washes over the last few months and I'd love to see them demonstrated in the flesh on a dark coloured, dirty car, followed by an IPA wipedown to remove any fillers the waterless wash may contain (an idea for an upcoming meet maybe?). Until then, I 100% believe that you cannot wash a dirty car using a waterless wash, without causing damage.


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## Bigpikle

richjohnhughes said:


> Thames water who supplies water to the south of england leaks away in-excess of 600 million liters of clean drinking water EVERYDAY. and then people say we should be saving water! !!!!!


...and every day people drink and drive, so its OK for the rest of us to do it as well then,..... :wall:

that really is a stupid argument to keep wheeling out.

I'm also willing to bet:

1. 99% of us NEVER wash a car even close to that dirty

2. 99% of people couldnt wash THAT car without swirling it either...

come on here, we're talking about TYPICAL washing situations. None of the fans of waterless washing have said it is perfect for EVERY situation, and in fact all the main threads I have read here have been clear in saying it ISNT for every situation. Why is the ONLY argument people can come up with that its hugely dirty muddy off roaders and old wrecks like that that mean that waterless washing must be impossible.

I wish people would use at least a little thought here


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## drive 'n' shine

Bigpikle said:


> None of the fans of waterless washing have said it is perfect for EVERY situation


The OP seems to claim its his *only* way of detailing, so he must be really choosy in the cars he details i.e. fresh out of the showroom and never driven or he has to turn down a lot of work in the winter which wouldn't make much business sense to me.

Still can't see how anyone can effectively clean wheels that have baked on brake dust without water


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## richjohnhughes

Bigpikle said:


> ...and every day people drink and drive, so its OK for the rest of us to do it as well then,..... :wall:
> 
> that really is a stupid argument to keep wheeling out.
> 
> I'm also willing to bet:
> 
> 1. 99% of us NEVER wash a car even close to that dirty
> 
> 2. 99% of people couldnt wash THAT car without swirling it either...
> 
> come on here, we're talking about TYPICAL washing situations. None of the fans of waterless washing have said it is perfect for EVERY situation, and in fact all the main threads I have read here have been clear in saying it ISNT for every situation. Why is the ONLY argument people can come up with that its hugely dirty muddy off roaders and old wrecks like that that mean that waterless washing must be impossible.
> 
> I wish people would use at least a little thought here


so now that we have established that waterless wash ISNT to "save" water and the only advantage is that we are not pumping dirty water in to the rivers - shouldnt the argument be that we should be collecting waste water (which i think is the law) or demanding the products used should be less harmful to the environment?

why try and un-invent the prefect method of doing something/???


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## dantheman

I have tried and use waterless, but its not for use in every situation.
The only consideration in using waterless is common sense.

Its ideal for maintaining a "clean" car.
by this I mean a car that has already been thoroughly cleaned and needs top up washes.
When i first tried waterless, cleaned a car I had, looked great, two days later it rained and all the muck trapped behind the mouldings ran down the doors leaving the car streaked filthy.
To me this pointed out the drawbacks of waterless.
In my opinion in this country you cannot have a full waterless solution as the weather and driving conditions just dont allow it.
But I believe if you have a car that has basically been cleaned and is at the stage of needing a wash, then yes a waterless can be effective.
if you get a call from a dealer that the valeters off sick, cars on the forecourt need cleaned, bingo, perfect stuff for the job.
you get a call from the local pig farmer, saying selling my landrover and it needs cleaned, well you just wouldn`t consider a waterless solution
it basically horses for courses, its an extra product to have and consider.

I get my own stuff, if anybody wants to give it a try dont mind posting a couple of bottles out
some people will like it some will not, its just personal preference.


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## Clark @ PB

drive 'n' shine said:


> The OP seems to claim its his *only* way of detailing, so he must be really choosy in the cars he details i.e. fresh out of the showroom and never driven or he has to turn down a lot of work in the winter which wouldn't make much business sense to me.
> 
> Still can't see how anyone can effectively clean wheels that have baked on brake dust without water


I agree with Bryan 100%. We already collect our wash water anyways but there's no chance am I going to switch to waterless washing, not at least untill there's a complete fool proof method and products to go with it (and I just can't see it). Even then I don't see how u could safely wash a range rover that's been up a farm road for example...


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## Bigpikle

Nobody said waterless ISN'T to save water? Do both... Save water and collect it. The law says pro's can't let water into drains anyway, so collecting or not dropping any is the legal minimum anyway.

Willing to bet that washing the Saab in that carpark with all the run off broke the law as well, which isn't a business model I would want to subscribe to. I can't view the original thread as I'm on my phone, but did it get polished or just a wash and wax?


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## Auto Finesse

In all honesty, i could not care less all im trying to do is put a roof over my head and food in my guts so if i have to break some pony unenforced law from the stone age to do so, so be it. 

Im pretty sure a guy washing MAX 4 cars a week is the least of there worries, what about all the hand car washes and guys in the shopping center car parks?


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## drive 'n' shine

Bigpikle said:


> The law says pro's can't let water into drains anyway, so collecting or not dropping any is the legal minimum anyway.


Damon you keep rolling this statement out and assuming that all the pros are breaking the law.

At least I can sleep easy at night without a dawn raid from the EA


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## Bigpikle

drive 'n' shine said:


> Damon you keep rolling this statement out and assuming that all the pros are breaking the law.
> 
> At least I can sleep easy at night without a dawn raid from the EA


Bryan - what I keep saying is that the law clearly states what _is_ and _isnt_ allowed. I have never said all pro's are breaking the law. Take a quick look through the Studio section though and you will find dozens and dozens of posts where people are foaming and rinsing away on peoples driveways, in car parks, on business parks, on the street etc etc and I'd take a major gamble that in those situations many arent using designated and approved trade effluent disposal  Its great that you and others are being responsible though - and I mean that seriously, having a lot of respect for you and the business you have built 

What really gets me pi55ed off though is that EVERY thread in this section where somebody, like the OP here, states _their_ experience or starts a discussion about something, gets jumped on by posters with nothing constructive to say - just criticism of the very idea - and deteriorates off topic into a stupid argument. I'm not pointing that at any one person but click on every thread here that and you will see what I mean... I'm all for loads of discussion but how many posts in this thread have ANYTHING to do with the OP's original post and discussion of his experiences and successful business model - not many sadly?

If people dont want to add anything constructive, or arent interested in the topic (which is absolutely fine...) then dont post. To quote the DW rules *"As the saying goes "If you have nothing nice to say then don't say it".*


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## drive 'n' shine

Fair enough Damon, I respect your views and opinion :thumb:

Maybe rather than a few people posting a few evangelical posts about how well waterless products work, and with little evidence to back it up. Why don't we arrange a day where these products can be tested out, quite happy to host it at my unit - Who knows you might even convince a sceptic!


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## Bigpikle

drive 'n' shine said:


> Fair enough Damon, I respect your views and opinion :thumb:
> 
> Maybe rather than a few people posting a few evangelical posts about how well waterless products work, and with little evidence to back it up. Why don't we arrange a day where these products can be tested out, quite happy to host it at my unit - Who knows you might even convince a sceptic!


Thats a good idea but it I reckon needs more than 1 try, over a decent period of time to make it convincing, or not. I am waiting to get some more product to try but am hoping to try the following:

1. polish out the Audi as it hasnt been done for 18 months

2. use a waterless product all year on 1 panel, like a front wing or a door at EVERY wash, regardless of dirt levels.

3. use ONR wet washing on the rest

I hope that by the end of the 'season' in autumn or similar, I will be able to see what the effect is? The car is a typical family car, that doesnt rally or get abused, lives outside 24/7 etc so hopefully will be a fairly typical car. I'll wax it etc as usual but wont use anything abrasive again for the rest of the year. I'll simply do a IPA wipedown on the panel 2 or 3 times during the year when re-waxing or something and photograph the results - might be good to do it at a meet or something for all to inspect. What do you think?

I dont know what the results will be, but the worst that will happen is that I have 6 months of marring on a panel 

I hope to have a few spare bottles to try out if you fancy a play?


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## caledonia

Deanoecosse said:


> .
> There's been a few posts about the waterless washes over the last few months and I'd love to see them demonstrated in the flesh on a dark coloured, dirty car, followed by an IPA wipedown to remove any fillers the waterless wash may contain (an idea for an upcoming meet maybe?). Until then, I 100% believe that you cannot wash a dirty car using a waterless wash, without causing damage.


It is already in the pipe line for a future Scottish meet. I will keep you posted.:thumb:



drive 'n' shine said:


> Still can't see how anyone can effectively clean wheels that have baked on brake dust without water


Brain.
I am currently messing about with a stream cleaner, So far although you might say its uses water, it uses considerably less water and chemicals. To clean. It is still to early to say where it will be totally satisfactory, as it is still on going. But so far I have no complaints.
I have used the cleaner on Glass, engine degreasing, upholstery cleaning, and today I had a go on the Black lower trims on a car. I will continue my tests and see where it goes.
There might be findings in this which could save water, run off and chemicals.

I have to agree that these negative posting are all much the same. I agree also that there is situation that I personally would not consider a water less wash also. But there is also a pressure sprayer with will also help soft, some stubborn grime. Not to the extent of the car is James post. But again how often would you come across a car in that condition.

I think the point Damon was trying to make. Is although you are posting up detailing jobs. It is also leaving you open to possible prosecution with photographic evidence. That is not to say that all pro do not collect the waste water and chemical. But the OP should;d also take care.
All though this is now law. It is only a matter of time before the EU and the British Government decide to enforce this and make land mark cases.

Just something to consider.
And not having a go either. Just high lighting certain aspects.:thumb:
Gordon.


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## Auto Finesse

Look at the last 10-20 jobs posted up by AF and you will see its all "in house" now days and the water dont go in to any drains full stop so as it stands its not against the law, this place is so PC and full of muppets now days its just not worth bothering with, thats the main reason you wont see any write up from us any more as it leaves us open to armchair experts and button tappers.

The last thread all we asked for where some direct light shots of the paint work, but it seems we still have not seen them, i work on around 4 cars per month that can not be washed with water due to a few issuse and the place that they are parked, these are new cars and only have light dirt on them from a max drive of 10-20 miles and i have to use a waterless product, i have never once finished a wash stage and found the paint not needing some form of machine work, it dose not matter to much on these cars as they are all getting the full treatment before sale, but if it was used as a maintanance wash there is no way it would be better, safer or quicker, so il stick to whats served me well for the last 10 years 

Damon if you wish to wash your car with waterless wash products you do that, but i would love to know how you clean all those dirty cloths after doing such ??? by hand in recycled water by any chance? or in your washing machine ?


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## wookey

drive 'n' shine said:


> Maybe rather than a few people posting a few evangelical posts about how well waterless products work, and with little evidence to back it up.


Completely agree with you there!

I personally would love to see some threads of full details to see what can be achieved and how.

also what happens to all the cleaning 'media' after a waterless clean?


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## Bigpikle

guys - I seem to get a load of flack about waterless products, but please check back all my posts on the topic, and you will only see I am encouraging people to think about them and be open minded - NOWHERE have I said they are perfect or should be adopted. In fact I have stated numerous times that they need testing and looking at, and that many of those I have tried have been junk....

I have used 1 product so far that impressed me on a car that was dirty, albeit NOT with winter salt and muck. I checked it very carefully (as it was my car) and didnt find any marring so far. As I said above, we need a long term test of some products to see what they might offer. Until that time I'll keep on with RINSELESS washing which I have found to be perfectly safe and every bit as good, or better, than a standard shampoo wash and 150L of water.

As for cleaning MF's, the 3 or 4 I use each ONR wash are stored up until I have a full washing machine load and then washed, just as I did with a standard wash. I dont use any more cloths with ONR and a QD than a normal wash. My washing machine uses 35L of water for a wash, which would be 15-20 MFs or about 5-6 typical washes. Even if I used 15-20 MFs per car wash and ran it each time, it would be significantly less than most people here use every time they wash their car...


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## m33porsche

One of the assets of this forum is our ability to have different views whilst at the same time respecting the experience and views of others.

Please lets keep to this, it marks out the forum as head and shoulders above most others.....:thumb:


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## Bigpikle

guys, guys....

Please chill out 

Cyclo - this is an area for discussing these techniques. If you dont want to add anything please follow the rules and DONT POST. Name calling really isnt acceptable here and after the recent rule reminder by DW Chief you might find yourself skating on thin ice...

Relaited - please chill and dont rise to the baiting. Please chill out and dont get yourself banned as we can keep having some great discussions.

Come on folks - we are only talking about washing cars


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## Brazo

Five pages has just been condensed into three, so thats two pages of pure cr4p i have just spent my Sunday morning sifting through. 

Please keep this on topic guys!


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## Dave KG

I am still waiting to see, as has been requested in this thread, pictures showing how a very dirty car can be cleaned without water, using a waterless wash product, and not leave any marring on the paint (or not cover up inflicted marring through fillers)... You dont have to drive up and down farm tracks, a week on the motorways at the moment is fine to leave a car absolutely covered in salt, silt, grit, mud and dirt - so a great many of our cars. I need to see unequivocal proof that waterless washing can clean such a car without inflicting damage, and I will not embarce until I see it (and it has been requested many times).

I care not about money, and whether a waterless washing system will save me money - if it damages paintwork, its not worth _any_ saving and we have no proof yet that has been posted that shows beyond doubt that it doesn't.

I dont condone breaking laws however so if they are in place regarding run off water then one should adhere to them - however, once can adhere to them by ensuring water collection, drainage into reclaim tanks, soakaways designed for purpose. It is not necessary to adopt a waterless washing method to adhere to the laws, though I do appreciate that being mobile this would be a lot more difficult.

Perhaps its time for an end of any petty bickering over the subject, and for those advocating it to prove to us with pictures, photographs, direct light shots etc that waterless washes work and do not marr... and we will hopefully see demonstrations of this at meets as well soon. I think what may be irking a few are, as Bryan above describes, evangelical posts without proof of the technique which seems to be riding on a wave of devilising current methods as killing the world. Some sense needs to be brought to the table on both sides, and these products need thorough testing and proof of results to convince us to change our ways, but by the same token people need to be well aware that waterless is not the only answer, and that for many water still has a big place in detailing and should not be written off just out of hand.


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## caledonia

Dave as you know I have been messing around with these products.
It is to early to say whether they are causing wash damage with direct lighting. But I have posted you a picture and you can survey any damage for yourself on Saturday.
Once I have conducted a few more washes and you verify the paint work. I hope this will help you.

It is an on going process and as Bigpikle has said. One or two washes will not highlight any major defects. But over a year thats is a different story.

50/50 ONR Wash.









Front end clean









In total I used 16 1/2 litres of water and 2 drying towels.

Products.








Gordon


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## Dave KG

I look forward to seeing it Gordon, many thanks for taking the time here to do this on your own car! :thumb:


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## Guest

Dave KG said:


> I look forward to seeing it Gordon, many thanks for taking the time here to do this on your own car! :thumb:


How about this,, would you pay someone to do this to your luxury car? Because basically this is what the evangelicals are crying for. PS. note the amount of dust on the hood if you can tell.


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## Guest

Part 2


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## Bigpikle

Gordon - looks good and thanks for the pics as well :thumb:

I did the Audi again today, complete with a wax and Opti Seal top up and had similar levels of dirt. I didnt take pics as I'll do my video this week as well, but looks like you had a good result with the ONR 

ONR is really only different to a standard wash because it doesnt need a rinse afterwards, so shouldnt scare people too much, but of course attacking the grime with no foam beforehand is also an advantage and can cause some 'buttock clenching' :lol:


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## caledonia

Bigpikle said:


> ONR is really only different to a standard wash because it doesnt need a rinse afterwards, so shouldnt scare people too much, but of course attacking the grime with no foam beforehand is also an advantage and can cause some 'buttock clenching' :lol:


I know the feeling.:lol:
It was hard enough holding the sponge steady without having to hold a camera still also. :wall:

I will stick to it but theres a bit of a learning curve. Had to keep reminding myself to ring out the sponge a bit.
Totally different wash technique to washing with a full laden mitt.

I was busy with the steamer today also Hoping to get the post up later. 
Gordon.


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## SteveB

Sorry chaps, I didn't realise that my views would cause such a rift of opinions. In no way did I post it to offend anyone but instead just wanted to express my satisfaction with the waterless products I use, and the benefits it has brought me. I respect everyones thoughts and understand that most detailers are still scepticle. One thing I will mention is that no matter what condition the cars' I detail are in, I can still get them to a standard that I have always provided for my clients with, and have in some cases brought them up to concourse standards, including a certain (par-ne I think its called) level featured on this forum. 
We're all here to support and work for this fantastic industry and I for one wouldn't go back and work in a boring office job.


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## drive 'n' shine

SteveB said:


> One thing I will mention is that no matter what condition the cars' I detail are in, I can still get them to a standard that I have always provided for my clients with, and have in some cases brought them up to concourse standards, including a certain (par-ne I think its called) level featured on this forum.


Again just words, a bit more evidence to back up your claims would help us sceptics.


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## CupraRcleanR

Can't see why people are going on about salt ridden motors and baked on brake dust, wheel arches etc as a traditional wash is the only way IMO but for lightly soiled or dusty cars this makes Waterless washing more interesting.

Waterless washing seems alien to everything I know and have learned but I will keep my mind open to it but we need to see some results.

I can see where Mr Pikle is abit fed up with negative comments that add nothing to the debate.


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## Deanoecosse

SteveB said:


> Sorry chaps, I didn't realise that my views would cause such a rift of opinions. In no way did I post it to offend anyone but instead just wanted to express my satisfaction with the waterless products I use, and the benefits it has brought me. I respect everyones thoughts and understand that most detailers are still scepticle. One thing I will mention is that no matter what condition the cars' I detail are in, I can still get them to a standard that I have always provided for my clients with, and have in some cases brought them up to concourse standards, including a certain (par-ne I think its called) level featured on this forum.
> We're all here to support and work for this fantastic industry and I for one wouldn't go back and work in a boring office job.


SteveB, can you post up some pictures of dark coloured cars in strong sunlight or direct lighting, where you have used the waterless technique. A car that you've waterless washed a few times would be even better.


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## Detail My Ride

Waterless?

You've just poured a bucket of water into your Low Pressure Sprayer, where does the Waterless come into it? 

To me, you've just wiped a dry microfibre over the bonnet?


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## Dave KG

Cyclo said:


> How about this,, would you pay someone to do this to your luxury car? Because basically this is what the evangelicals are crying for. PS. note the amount of dust on the hood if you can tell.


In a word... no! Not in a million years...

To me, that looks like spraying on a water and product solution and just wiping dirt off with a dry microfibre... no direct light shots of the paint afterwards to confirm damage or not. Does not inspire any confidence at all.

As above, we are still wanting to see the working proof that these techniques work and dont marr... I applaud those here who are actually using these products and letting us see and examine under direct lighting, they are braver than me because that style of washing system would not touch my car until I saw unequivical proof that it doesn't marr.


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## drive 'n' shine

CupraRcleanR said:


> I can see where Mr Pikle is abit fed up with negative comments that add nothing to the debate.


We get a few people with low post counts (and I am not referring to Damon) coming on telling us all how wonderful waterless washing is, yet have nothing to back it up, yet at the same time have plenty of negative things to say about traditional washing using water!

Until these posters actually back up their claims with at least some photographic evidence I for one shall remain in the doubters camp!


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## caledonia

If you dont mind me asking all the people with negative views on this waterless wash system.
If hypothetically it was proven to work. Can you honestly say you would introduce it into your car care routine.
I know that James, Bry and Dave from talking to him have taken the correct actions and deal with the waste issues. But what about the rest.

Can you hand on heart say you would take on this technique if you where proven it worked.?

Gordon.


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## Tybo

caledonia said:


> Can you hand on heart say you would take on this technique if you where proven it worked.?
> 
> Gordon.


I would :thumb:

So....does it???


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## caledonia

Tybo said:


> I would :thumb:
> 
> So....does it???


As mentioned in earlier posts by myself and Bigpikle it is far to early to put our hand on our heart and recommend it to others. It is bad enough for those that are trying this out at this moment in time. Where is our own cars, without recommending it to other yet.

I am the first to admit. I have already turned my back on a few products. That just dont cut it. the current test piece. Which is not my car.

Hopefully time will tell one way or another. I was only wondering what was people out looks and thought.

Gordon.


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## Tybo

caledonia said:


> As mentioned in earlier posts by myself and Bigpikle it is far to early to put our hand on our heart and recommend it to others. It is bad enough for those that are trying this out at this moment in time. Where is our own cars, without recommending it to other yet.
> 
> I am the first to admit. I have already turned my back on a few products. That just dont cut it. the current test piece. Which is not my car.
> 
> Hopefully time will tell one way or another. I was only wondering what was people out looks and thought.
> 
> Gordon.


Well i'd definitely consider it, if it was proven to work *and* cause no damage.:thumb:


----------



## Relaited

Cyclo, you have found a great example of what I think is a big issue. The back story here is that this person, very experienced Training Facility owner, went to another such company, saw this machine, went home and shot this U Tube video. Disappoints me greatly to see “Hardly any on the ground”. I use this to point out that even a seasoned professional needs training when it comes to water $mart solutions. He has been asked to remove the video by myself and others, and has not to date. It is not a good example. Please do not use this as an example of why not to consider the model. 

The struggle I have is that I have nothing to sell anyone here, and I do not find it my responsibility to offer the proof. I define Water $mart to be inclusive, well beyond “waterless”.

Let me start by saying that Water $mart includes the traditional pressure washer model. I encourage minimal water usage, as there is a requirement for proper discharge and or reclamation. It must go into proper containment, like a separator or clarifier, or must go into a wash mat with reclamation. Several cars in question here must be serviced that way. You would be crazy to take a muddy, off road vehicle and try to waterless wash the thing. Nuts, no reputable Detailer should attempt. Can we move on?

Waterless, No Rinse and Steam are also very much a part of this definition. This is where I challenge any Detailer, that this model and these products can and should be part of any Detailers tools. They work, and work great. Even if it is only 10% of cars. Ina fixed location, you can reduce water consumption and moisture … and not have to move the car, so you may save space … detail right in place. If you are mobile, it means you do not have to unpack the wash mat, wash, pick up waste then properly discharge. You can clean’m where you find’m

I do not believe sending pictures takes a nay sayer and converts them. In my 3+ years, seeing is believing. Rather than send pictures, can anyone recommend a good product to Drive N Shine & others? Once they have such products , I would be happy to share best practices and techniques to achieve great results and outcomes without scratching. Meet me half way?

-jim :wall:


----------



## wookey

caledonia said:


> If you dont mind me asking all the people with negative views on this waterless wash system.
> If hypothetically it was proven to work. Can you honestly say you would introduce it into your car care routine.
> I know that James, Bry and Dave from talking to him have taken the correct actions and deal with the waste issues. But what about the rest.
> 
> Can you hand on heart say you would take on this technique if you where proven it worked.?
> 
> Gordon.


I think people instantly have a negative view on waterless wash systems as they instantly associate it with inflict damage (I know I do as I can't see how it possibly could not inflict some sort of damage).

My personal view is still that, until I have seen some evidence - not someone's words typed on an internet forum to prove otherwise, I will be sitting in the doubters corner...lol

If someone could show me how it has worked without any flaws then I would give it a try to see it for my own eyes. Until then I shall be sticking to water :detailer:


----------



## Dave KG

Relaited said:


> Cyclo, you have found a great example of what I think is a big issue. The back story here is that this person, very experienced Training Facility owner, went to another such company, saw this machine, went home and shot this U Tube video. Disappoints me greatly to see "Hardly any on the ground". I use this to point out that even a seasoned professional needs training when it comes to water solutions. He has been asked to remove the video by myself and others, and has not to date. It is not a good example. Please do not use this as an example of why not to consider the model.
> 
> The struggle I have is that I have nothing to sell anyone here, and I do not find it my responsibility to offer the proof. I define Water to be inclusive, well beyond "waterless".
> 
> Let me start by saying that Water includes the traditional pressure washer model. I encourage minimal water usage, as there is a requirement for proper discharge and or reclamation. It must go into proper containment, like a separator or clarifier, or must go into a wash mat with reclamation. Several cars in question here must be serviced that way. You would be crazy to take a muddy, off road vehicle and try to waterless wash the thing. Nuts, no reputable Detailer should attempt. Can we move on?
> 
> Waterless, No Rinse and Steam are also very much a part of this definition. This is where I challenge any Detailer, that this model and these products can and should be part of any Detailers tools. They work, and work great. Even if it is only 10% of cars. Ina fixed location, you can reduce water consumption and moisture … and not have to move the car, so you may save space … detail right in place. If you are mobile, it means you do not have to unpack the wash mat, wash, pick up waste then properly discharge. You can clean'm where you find'm
> 
> I do not believe sending pictures takes a nay sayer and converts them. In my 3+ years, seeing is believing. Rather than send pictures, can anyone recommend a good product to Drive N Shine & others? Once they have such products , I would be happy to share best practices and techniques to achieve great results and outcomes without scratching. Meet me half way?
> 
> -jim :wall:


Now our wavelenghts are coming closer... using the correct solution for the car and situation in hand. My car will never see waterless wash simply because of the miles it does between washing, and the dirt build up on it... And until I had both thoroughly tested and seen others proof of the waterless washes not scratching, it wouldn't go on to any other car I would be detailing.

But in the interests of open minds, and education, and learning - what products would you recommend for a water smart model? I have the pressure washer, foam and two bucket method firmly in my model and they will stay because they are known and trusted to me and I get the results I want with them... but for someone wanting to learn and trial, what would you recommend. I'm sure I can find a car I could test the model out on for myself and see what it is like with my own eyes, and post my thoughts and feelings based on this to the forum. Your recommendations?

And it would then be of great interest to see the limitations of all the methods... I think part of the brick wall that is being run up against here is that many are "selling" waterless and not highlighting limitations it has and instead devilising traditional (and lest we not forget, from a results perspective, well proven) methods. Open discussion of the limitations to both, and the advantages and disadvantages of both would go a long way to seeing greater acceptance of all models, IMHO.


----------



## Relaited

II just watched the video again. Although I see some technique opportunities, I think it is a close enough representation. Car was a bit dirty. I would fold the towel, and moisten it. I would limit the number of passes , makes intuitive sense that rubbing a dirty towel across paint will induce scratching, so you limit the passes, and turn the towel so you always have a clean side.

The best of breed solutions have emulsifiers and lubricants. The solution emulsifies and encapsulates the dirt, lifting it from the paint. Micro Fibers are different than cotton. Cotton is woven tightly, MF is designed to extract and hold the dirt. See this link http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Microfiber-vs-Cotton.png

In combination, they waterless and microfiber towels work to clean, shine and protect all in one step. Seeing is believing.

Is it reasonable to ask those that are so against this concept if they have ever tried it themselves?

-jim :wall:


----------



## drive 'n' shine

Relaited said:


> Rather than send pictures, can anyone recommend a good product to Drive N Shine & others? Once they have such products , I would be happy to share best practices and techniques to achieve great results and outcomes without scratching. Meet me half way?
> 
> -jim :wall:


More than happy to, as I have said in an earlier post, if someone wants to have a day, showing us non-believers, how effective these waterless and water smart products are I am happy to host it at my unit.

And I will happily carry out long term trials on one of my own cars.


----------



## drive 'n' shine

Relaited said:


> Is it reasonable to ask those that are so against this concept if they have ever tried it themselves?
> 
> -jim :wall:


Thats the thing, I *have* tried various waterless / watersmart products, a couple of summers ago my water company was on the verge of enforcing a drought order, which would have put a ban on all commercial water usage, so pre-empting this I ordered just about every waterless product I could find to try out just in case the order was ever enforced


----------



## Guest

drive 'n' shine said:


> More than happy to, as I have said in an earlier post, if someone wants to have a day, showing us non-believers, how effective these waterless and water smart products are I am happy to host it at my unit.
> 
> And I will happily carry out long term trials on one of my own cars.





drive 'n' shine said:


> Thats the thing, I *have* tried various waterless / watersmart products, a couple of summers ago my water company was on the verge of enforcing a drought order, which would have put a ban on all commercial water usage, so pre-empting this I ordered just about every waterless product I could find to try out just in case the order was ever enforced


So basically your saying that you've tried these products and that new fangled microfiber towel and it just didn't work huh?

Also, you live in an environment where you get that precipitation that comes down white and slosh's all over and they use chemicals to help disperse it from the roadways. You think your turning and lightly wiping that microfiber will clean an Maserati up OK? No Soap Super Car

===============================================
I googled Water $mart and there was a seminar put on in Florida

Jim? Jim F? I think I know now why we will never see pics. Why would you try to tell a businessman to remove a video he made and put up for himself? Is your franchise that you own the EcoWash or the pronto you had in your profile? ProntoWash

http://vehiclespa.com/2009/01/mobile tech expo in clearwater florida/


----------



## Relaited

I just put in a request with I guy that has sent me samples, see if he has any distributors in your necks of the woods.

I am finding it hard to believe that none of the cars you see can be done with this system.

Can anyone share with me the products that have been used that have not met their standards, and the technique and process used?

Thanks in advance. -jim :wall:


----------



## Relaited

OK … good news, I think …

I just talked to a guy who started manufacturing in the UK, he was on his way to dinner with family, but did say that he would ship 5 people some free samples. I think he has one of the best.

So, I’d like to make Damon one of them. Can anyone suggest a way of how this can be done? Don’t want to break forum rules, and not sure what it is like shipping across countries over there.

Please advise,

-jim
:wall:


----------



## Guest

Relaited said:


> OK … good news, I think …
> 
> I just talked to a guy who started manufacturing in the UK, he was on his way to dinner with family, but did say that he would ship 5 people some free samples. I think he has one of the best.


Dinner with family? It's 3:30 am right now in the UK, But 7:30 in Cal. Call me a skeptic also Jim F.


----------



## Relaited

You are a skeptic :wall:


----------



## Guest

Relaited said:


> You are a skeptic :wall:


Jim Fitzpatrick Eco Detailer

http://www.detailuniversity.com/forums/9671-post28.html



> http://www.swrcb.ca.gov/santaana/board_info/minutes/2008/02-29-2008_minutes.pdf
> 
> Jim Fitzpatrick, president of Pronto Wash, explained how Pronto Wash is an eco-friendly car
> wash and detail process that uses only a pint of water to wash a vehicle. He indicated that
> technology is available today to have a waterless or water capture system for car washes. The
> NPDES permits should specify requirements to use currently available systems to eliminate
> pollutants in runoff from mobile operations. The Pronto Wash system produces no runoff. Pronto
> Wash wants to be a part of the solution to eliminate illegal discharges from mobile car washes.
> Mr. Fitzpatrick requested the Board to address the issue related to runoff from mobile car washes
> through strict municipal storm water permit requirements.


----------



## Bigpikle

I have a sample from a UK company already out there, and have just ordered some sample bottles fro Yvan (Reparebrise) that should be here in a few weeks and are currently not available in the UK and not really cost effective to get hold of right now.... I have NO idea if they are great or junk but fancy having a play. If anyone would like to try one then let me know 

It seems from my conversations and reading that there are 3 elements that need to come together for a successful waterless product:

1. quality product that helps protect from maring etc

2. technique - as always...

3. spray bottle - a very fine mist layer over the area to clean is apparently also key, rather than a big deposit of product in a localised area. I bought some different mister bottles to try just for this purpose 

Again, _no idea_ if any of these will even come close to acceptable standards, but hopefully by the end of the summer I'll have something I havent ever seen - a fully photographed, 'independently' inspected long term test of a product on a car that was polished before the start of the test


----------



## Clark @ PB

I think that *IF* a waterless wash system existed that didnt cause any light marring then it would only be effective if you had an almost perfect technique to go along with it. Whilst it may be easy enough for myself or many other detailers on here to adapt to said technique, I dont ever think it would be that easy for our contract customers for example (some find it hard enough with the 2 buckets etc!)

And I dont really fancy correcting the mess they could make of their paintwork in a matter of days/weeks...That for us would completely rule out waterless washing as part of our services.


----------



## Bigpikle

Clark said:


> I think that *IF* a waterless wash system existed that didnt cause any light marring then it would only be effective if you had an almost perfect technique to go along with it. *Whilst it may be easy enough for myself or many other detailers on here to adapt to said technique, I dont ever think it would be that easy for our contract customers for example (some find it hard enough with the 2 buckets etc!)*
> 
> And I dont really fancy correcting the mess they could make of their paintwork in a matter of days/weeks...That for us would completely rule out waterless washing as part of our services.


Clark - I think you may have a very valid point there.

Sadly, most of the marketing I have seen shows people being pretty slapdash with the stuff and no way are they likely to be even close to safely washing their car... A good friend of mine in the classic car world swears I'm an idiot for spending all the time I do on my cars. Apparently I should just spray and wipe my cars with his super-duper waterless product. Having seen the state of his car it reinforces your point 100% :lol:


----------



## reparebrise

Our customers frankly don't care how we clean a car. What they care about is results, quality, and price. Using our model we have been able to meet all there requirements.

I have been away for a while, but reading this thread has been interesting. The detractors from using the best process for the job at hand all bring up extremes. I am not in the US, but in Quebec Canada, where salt sand and slush are standard road coverings for 6 months of the year. We get snow, rain, ice and slush, not to mention -30 temps.

We do not use waterless for every car, but use it when we can.

All those that want proof, what proof do we have that your technique works, none, word of mouth only. That to say that do you ask for extensive proof before ordering a dish in a restaurant that it has not killed anyone?

Those that are willing to give it a shot, great, those who continue to bombard this and other threads with only negative input, why bother, we get it that you are afraid to evolve, and thats fine, but please stop trying to dissuade others from trying it.


----------



## Auto Finesse

Look through the studio and you will see proof from all that questioned it, where as all we have from you is what you have said, we are all still waiting for direct sun light shots of that paint work you showed at the start ?????


----------



## Clark @ PB

reparebrise said:


> Our customers frankly don't care how we clean a car. What they care about is results, quality, and price. Using our model we have been able to meet all there requirements.
> 
> I have been away for a while, but reading this thread has been interesting. The detractors from using the best process for the job at hand all bring up extremes. I am not in the US, but in Quebec Canada, where salt sand and slush are standard road coverings for 6 months of the year. We get snow, rain, ice and slush, not to mention -30 temps.
> 
> We do not use waterless for every car, but use it when we can.
> 
> All those that want proof, what proof do we have that your technique works, none, word of mouth only. That to say that do you ask for extensive proof before ordering a dish in a restaurant that it has not killed anyone?
> 
> Those that are willing to give it a shot, great, those who continue to bombard this and other threads with only negative input, why bother, we get it that you are afraid to evolve, and thats fine, but please stop trying to dissuade others from trying it.


I'm sorry but there's plenty of bad detailers here in the UK that gain plenty of work through "word of mouth" so I dont accept that as good enough proof that the waterless wash system you use is perfectly fine either, you have to remember that one persons standards is different to the next...

As for your point about your customers not caring about how you clean a car but caring about the price, I would say that depends on the market you're aiming at. 99% of our customers dont even bat an eye lid at costs but I'm sure we would lose business if we switched from the tried and tested method of 2 bucket washing to waterless methods.

It just appears to me that you're preaching about all this with next to no proof of it working?


----------



## Dave KG

reparebrise said:


> Our customers frankly don't care how we clean a car. What they care about is results, quality, and price. Using our model we have been able to meet all there requirements.
> 
> I have been away for a while, but reading this thread has been interesting. The detractors from using the best process for the job at hand all bring up extremes. I am not in the US, but in Quebec Canada, where salt sand and slush are standard road coverings for 6 months of the year. We get snow, rain, ice and slush, not to mention -30 temps.
> 
> We do not use waterless for every car, but use it when we can.
> 
> All those that want proof, what proof do we have that your technique works, none, word of mouth only. That to say that do you ask for extensive proof before ordering a dish in a restaurant that it has not killed anyone?
> 
> Those that are willing to give it a shot, great, those who continue to bombard this and other threads with only negative input, why bother, we get it that you are afraid to evolve, and thats fine, but please stop trying to dissuade others from trying it.


The proof is easy to find, both on and off the forum, of our techniques... Those who attended Polished Bliss' Breakfast Clubs last year will have seen my personal car first hand after a winter's worth of washing, and it was commented upon for how swirl free it was - living proof of how our wash techniques work on just one example of a car.

Time and time again, professional detailers in the UK teach their customers how to care for their cars, and many will report that with careful washing techniques based on the methods we have been using and perfecting for years, that owners are able to keep their pride and joys swirl free.

If you handed one of your customers for whom you have detailed their car your product, taught them how to use it in an hour (say), would they be able to come back three months later with the finihs pretty much as perfect as when you left it? This is what people are asking for proof of - proof that your system works as well as our system in this cruicial aspect of marring free washing performance... Lets see it, please.


----------



## littlelloydy

Just had a good read through this thread, and have ordered a few different products to run my owm test. Hope it works as good as the users say it does as i have high hopes

Lloydy


----------



## AndyC

Knackered - 7 pages, Brazo's "delete post" finger's now broken and WAY too many :wall::wall::wall::wall::wall: for my liking :wall: (one for luck).

I'd be very interested in a "waterless detailing day" myself. I can't see that a waterless product of any sort needs months & months of testing and I'd be happy to volunteer the Saab as a guinea pig :thumb:


----------



## caledonia

Nice to See. You lending support Andy.
I am current playing around with a few products myself.
Always good to see and have an open mind to new techniques and products.
Who knows some might be surprise in the findings.
But it is far to early to tell at the moment.
Gordon


----------



## Relaited

I was surprised to see many here requesting proof, being given an opportunity to have a sample delivered, and then not accept that offer.

I am not even sure this could be pulled off, but I think so. I have no financial relationship with the company who would send the samples, just know that he does have distributors internationally, and was willing to try and figure it out. Seemed like a good idea to me. 

if the interest is genuine, why not try some yourself?

-jim


----------



## caledonia

Relaited said:


> I was surprised to see many here requesting proof, being given an opportunity to have a sample delivered, and then not accept that offer.
> 
> I am not even sure this could be pulled off, but I think so. I have no financial relationship with the company who would send the samples, just know that he does have distributors internationally, and was willing to try and figure it out. Seemed like a good idea to me.
> 
> if the interest is genuine, why not try some yourself?
> 
> -jim


Ok Jim.
Depending on the cost implications and requirement for ordering I will be willing to take you up on this offer.

So put my name down for the first sample. 
Gordon.


----------



## PJS

AndyC said:


> I'd be very interested in a "waterless detailing day" myself. I can't see that a waterless product of any sort needs months & months of testing and I'd be happy to volunteer the Saab as a guinea pig :thumb:


Have one coming my way, so we'll see how that one fayres.


----------



## AndyC

Samples? Did someone say Samples? :wave:

Seriously, stick me down. Always willing to try something new and arguably this is a significant new area for many of us, self included.


----------



## Perfection Detailing

All those that want proof, what proof do we have that your technique works, none, word of mouth only. That to say that do you ask for extensive proof before ordering a dish in a restaurant that it has not killed anyone? 

As James says take a look in the studio....


----------



## Kev F

I was under the impression that we (DW) already had a small test going on. John (Epoch) had around 4-5 products that were being used on a daily driver of his...

John..any update....

http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=89707&highlight=waterless

Kev


----------



## littlelloydy

I dont think this is a viable product to use when valeting cars, never mind a full detail.
The main problem i can see is time. Just etting all the muck out from the wheel arches with a pressure washer is a 2 second job. If your not using anything with high pressure then its going to take more time, more time is money so to wash the exterior of a car is going to take longer therefore less cars in a day. The only way round it would be to put the prices up and I dont think its a good idea to increase prices in this recession we are in. 
I cant see myself ever using the waterless product with my mobile valeting business unless someone changes the law

lloydy


----------



## bidderman1969

reparebrise said:


> *Our customers frankly don't care how we clean a car. What they care about is results, quality, and price. Using our model we have been able to meet all there requirements*.
> 
> I have been away for a while, but reading this thread has been interesting. The detractors from using the best process for the job at hand all bring up extremes. I am not in the US, but in Quebec Canada, where salt sand and slush are standard road coverings for 6 months of the year. We get snow, rain, ice and slush, not to mention -30 temps.
> 
> We do not use waterless for every car, but use it when we can.
> 
> All those that want proof, what proof do we have that your technique works, none, word of mouth only. That to say that do you ask for extensive proof before ordering a dish in a restaurant that it has not killed anyone?
> 
> Those that are willing to give it a shot, great, those who continue to bombard this and other threads with only negative input, why bother, we get it that you are afraid to evolve, and thats fine, but please stop trying to dissuade others from trying it.


to me, and im not trying to talk down to you at all, but it just sounds like the equivilant of the Tesco's car washers over here, (that obviously break the law with their "run off wastage" going straight into drains, but they are kept in line "apparently" by the council  ) when you say the bit i have highlighted, they obviously only want a shiney car, costing about £5.

i saw all the proof i needed after studying hundreds of studio and showroom examples people kindly post up. that changed my wash technique forever, and i then moved onto paint correction, again by studying and getting some tutorial, and believe im "fairly" good at it by now, so until the proof is posted up, i am definately in the "sceptical" camp and wont be using it for quite a while, if at all

:thumb:


----------



## AndyC

My biggest hurdle now is BH Autofoam (jeez, I sound like a paid sales exec!!) as it cleans so well and quickly that it does much of what I need :thumb:


----------



## SteveB

*Marchs' editions of Performance Car*

Hi Guys. Since putting up my original post a lot of DW members were asking to see proof of waterless detailing. Check out March's (out now) edition of Performance Car magazine and you'll see an example of my waterless detailing treatment in there - its a double page spread in the long termer section. Please bear in mind that the editor managed to print the wrong web address, and appology due next month. Since the article, the phone has been ringing constantly and I'm booked up until the end of September.

Hope it spreads some light on the situation.


----------



## Detail My Ride

I don't want to go and buy a magazine. I want to see some pictures, of the Paintwork of a car, in direct light (Sun, Brinkmann, Sun Gun) etc after it has been treated with your Waterless system. 

I won't be won over until I see 'em.


----------



## bidderman1969

if its on a website, then why not post up here?


----------



## Bigpikle

Kev F said:


> I was under the impression that we (DW) already had a small test going on. John (Epoch) had around 4-5 products that were being used on a daily driver of his...
> 
> John..any update....
> 
> http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=89707&highlight=waterless
> 
> Kev


that was really a one-off and Jon has kindly let me have those products since :thumb:

From my initial testing though, those products aren't necessarily 'best of breed' and I think we need more investigation.

For one, I dont think anything with 'danger death' warning symbols all over it is very eco-friendly :lol:


----------



## Auto Finesse

SteveB said:


> Hi Guys. Since putting up my original post a lot of DW members were asking to see proof of waterless detailing. Check out March's (out now) edition of Performance Car magazine and you'll see an example of my waterless detailing treatment in there - its a double page spread in the long termer section. Please bear in mind that the editor managed to print the wrong web address, and appology due next month. Since the article, the phone has been ringing constantly and I'm booked up until the end of September.
> 
> Hope it spreads some light on the situation.


What dose that prove ???? it dont prove if its as safe a way as 2 Buckets and a foam soak, we want to know if it can clean with out marring swirling or putting any other defects in the paint finish, and in my own experiance with waterless wash products (as iv said i do have a contract where that is the only way we can clean the cars down prior to detailing) they are not any where near as safe as the tried and tested wash methods


----------



## Dream Machines

semi waterless washing with a chamois can never marr a finish. I use a completely natural, rainforest plant based australian made group of products that are drinkable which are nothing more than great self drying lubricants and do not polish, fill or wax anything or hurt any of the vehicles surfaces

chamois are the best material for semi waterless cleaning

My 530 lumens LED light, metal halide, sodium vapour, flouro and halogen light testing with each wash have proven to me that no marring is induced with this method 
it would take maybe 15 washes to get anything at all and it's all easily filled in permanently

Nothing wrong with filling, as long as it never washes out which is what toughseal and glare are best at.


----------



## Clark @ PB

Yet again,all talk and no proof!


----------



## drive 'n' shine

Clark said:


> Yet again,all talk and no proof!


Kind of sums it all up really 

Anyway I'm off to clean my car with nothing but the power of thought


----------



## Auto Finesse

Dream Machines said:


> semi waterless washing with a chamois can never marr a finish. I use a completely natural, rainforest plant based australian made group of products that are drinkable which are nothing more than great self drying lubricants and do not polish, fill or wax anything or hurt any of the vehicles surfaces
> 
> chamois are the best material for semi waterless cleaning
> 
> My 530 lumens LED light, metal halide, sodium vapour, flouro and halogen light testing with each wash have proven to me that no marring is induced with this method
> it would take maybe 15 washes to get anything at all and it's all easily filled in permanently
> 
> Nothing wrong with filling, as long as it never washes out which is what toughseal and glare are best at.


You keep telling us this but no proof ??????  button tappings cheap IMO


----------



## bidderman1969

Dream Machines said:


> semi waterless washing with a chamois can never marr a finish. I use a completely natural, rainforest plant based australian made group of products that are drinkable which are nothing more than great self drying lubricants and do not polish, fill or wax anything or hurt any of the vehicles surfaces
> 
> chamois are the best material for semi waterless cleaning
> 
> My 530 lumens LED light, metal halide, sodium vapour, flouro and halogen light testing with each wash have proven to me that no marring is induced with this method
> it would take maybe 15 washes to get anything at all and it's all easily filled in permanently
> 
> *Nothing wrong with filling, as long as it never washes out which is what toughseal and glare are best at.[/*QUOTE]
> 
> so what your saying, is it does damage it, but fills in what it damages?


----------



## Guest

Dream Machines said:


> semi waterless washing with a chamois can never marr a finish. I use a completely natural, rainforest plant based australian made group of products that are drinkable which are nothing more than great self drying lubricants and *do not polish, fill* or wax anything or hurt any of the vehicles surfaces
> 
> chamois are the best material for semi waterless cleaning
> 
> My 530 lumens LED light, metal halide, sodium vapour, flouro and halogen light testing with each wash have proven to me that no marring is induced with this method
> it would take maybe 15 washes to get anything at all and it's all easily filled in permanently
> 
> *Nothing wrong with filling*, as long as it never washes out which is what toughseal and glare are best at.


On one hand you say one thing, then with the other you say the opposite.

But yet, not one detailed photo shoot to back any claim up, just words....


----------



## Dream Machines

sorry for messing up that post, I meant to add that any marks you may eventually get can be filled in by glare, toughseal or other similar glaze and sealant. but I forgot to post it

what I mean is - no it does not fill anything at all or polish any marks out, it's just a damn good lubricant

you of little faith. you have to see something to believe in it. 
I did a video on how I wash but damn it I deleted it and 2000 other pics by mistake while cleaning my computer. damn things. one button and you lose the lot


----------



## Auto Finesse

Not really, iv seen waterless at work first hand and even on cars that are not that grubby it causes marring, so you telling us you have some mega product made from trees only found in you back garden and stuff makes me want to see pics.

I call BS on this one.


----------



## Deano




----------



## Dream Machines

whatever james. all I know is that it's australian made and all from natural resources (not citrus based though)

Videos coming.


----------



## Auto Finesse

Dream Machines said:


> whatever james. all I know is that it's australian made and all from natural resources (not citrus based though)
> 
> Videos coming.


That is the exact reply i was expecting all i want is some pic's of this product in use on a averagely dirty car and the close ups of the paint condition in direct light, you have been on this forum long enough to know the form :thumb:


----------



## Clark @ PB

I still wanna see some decent quality pics along with videos


----------



## AndyC

Tell you what. Damon's hopefully sorting me out some waterless gear at the ****neys this Saturday. Assuming it's not raining when I get back I'll use it on the Saab and take some pics under Xenon and Halogen lighting and direct sunlight if it's out. The Saab, BTW, is likely to be feelthy again by Saturday.

I may even ask Johnny to come down and help me with some videoing of the whole thing and I'll happily post up the results, good or bad, with my thoughts and how I used the product, by Sunday night.

How's that sound?


----------



## Bigpikle

AndyC said:


> Tell you what. Damon's hopefully sorting me out some waterless gear at the ****neys this Saturday. Assuming it's not raining when I get back I'll use it on the Saab and take some pics under Xenon and Halogen lighting and direct sunlight if it's out. The Saab, BTW, is likely to be feelthy again by Saturday.
> 
> I may even ask Johnny to come down and help me with some videoing of the whole thing and I'll happily post up the results, good or bad, with my thoughts and how I used the product, by Sunday night.
> 
> How's that sound?


need to just spend a bit of time getting the technique nailed down Andy - I think a MAJOR issue is how people use this stuff. The instructions are quite different to using a spray wax or QD etc. Spray and wipe is going to kill your paint if its dirty I reckon - needs a little care. Hoping to get a quick practice in myself this week - will see how it goes, or not :lol:


----------



## Relaited

I have watched some of the biggest names in Detailing start to get into “waterless” lately. There are market forces necessitating these changes. I share this because it is my belief that a bottle of “waterless” is not the solution. It takes training and knowledge to achieve results.

To pick up a bottle, squirt away and wipe off is a recipe for failure, in my opinion.

I would be happy to share techniques and best practices.

The one thing I will not do is to take pictures and post to a bunch of gents that all it seems they can do is pop off with “show me the pictures”. I get it, you will not use these products until someone proves it to you. Well I for one am not going to be doing that, as I believe you must prove it to yourself. I have offered samples from a company that I think can send them, with only 1 taker … only one.

So, I would respectfully ask that all those posters who come to this thread to say things like “I will not be using this product until someone shows me a picture” … that they refrain from that, I get it, I think we get it, and it is taking away from those of us who wish to share and learn on the topic.

-jim


----------



## proper detailer

Im opening a waterless car wash in every multistorey car park in london , watch this space pics will be up once im home , it really is the business this stuff , and its not even out in the market yet


----------



## Auto Finesse

No offence intended here but all you guys bigging it up are new to the scene and not been doing it long and you come here and question the tried and tested methods of full time pros that have been in the industry for years,

Our methods are up and on show in the studio section for all to see, the results, yours ??????

Im not saying waterless not a have time and place to be used but it would never be first port of cal for me, quite the opposite, i only use it if i can not move a car out of a show room in to a wash bay ? i keep a bottle on board just in case, but i dont rate any of the products iv tried, and iv tried alot



proper detailer said:


> Im opening a waterless car wash in every multistorey car park in london , watch this space pics will be up once im home , it really is the business this stuff , and its not even out in the market yet


Every multistory car park in london


----------



## Gleammachine

proper detailer said:


> Im opening a waterless car wash in every multistorey car park in london , watch this space pics will be up once im home , it really is the business this stuff , and its not even out in the market yet


Good luck to you, must say you move quickly considering a month ago you was looking at getting the gear to re-start a valeting business.


----------



## AndyC

Bigpikle said:


> need to just spend a bit of time getting the technique nailed down Andy - I think a MAJOR issue is how people use this stuff. The instructions are quite different to using a spray wax or QD etc. Spray and wipe is going to kill your paint if its dirty I reckon - needs a little care. Hoping to get a quick practice in myself this week - will see how it goes, or not :lol:


Providing it's pictures, not words then I'm cool......:lol:

Seriously, it's a big development for me personally as I tried some waterless products (not naming names) 3-4 years back and was less than impressed but I'm sure that that was more poor technique than product (craftsman & tools etc.) so happy to revisit this to see where I went wrong and whether waterless gives me what I want.

It's also worth mentioning that time is an important factor for me, as I'm sure it is for many others here on DW. I have a young family and a busy day job and TBH spending hours on any car washing/polishing processes isn't what it used to be - not a reflection of the forum, its members or any particular product or process but I want the daily cars to be washed & dried in less than 2 hours now on a routine basis - my methodology and techniques mean this is currently achievable at the cost of the odd wash induced mark which frankly I can live with.

I'm leaning towards gtechniq on the Saab in particular as its apparent low maintenance really appeals right now.

The 205 is my down time/me time/whatever so I'll happily spend a few hours here and there playing around with parts of the car and different products and techniques - and waterless will form part of that if I can get it right.

I feel obliged to add a comment in defence of our UK pro's - I know many of them personally and have seen their work and processes firsthand. I really don't think that they're setting out to prove anyone wrong here but they use tried, tested and most importantly safe processes as testing what appear to be unproven products on a customer's expensive car just doesn't cut it. The request for pictures showing that a "waterless washed" finish can be as safe as the traditional method stikes me as being reasonable, hence my earlier suggestion that I get some pics up ASAP.

These guys don't bite - if the product & technique can work for them then I'm absolutely sure that they'd embrace it :thumb:


----------



## drive 'n' shine

Relaited said:


> Well I for one am not going to be doing that, as I believe you must prove it to yourself.


So your not to prove to us that your products work? Or that they only work in a (So Cal climate) cheap car park washing scenario? For someone who is so sure about his methods and products you don't seem very forthcoming in providing the evidence to back up your claims.

And until I am told otherwise or until you stop spouting your same old sales pitch I will not refrain from posting and questioning the viability of waterless, as I thought it was supposed to be about having a discussion, not simply a case of "I say it works so there"

Would love to know who all the "big names" are that you are referring to!


----------



## Gleammachine

drive 'n' shine said:


> Would love to know who all the "big names" are that you are referring to!


Mr Agunbundakiorraunboongo from my local handwash centre.


----------



## drive 'n' shine

Gleammachine said:


> Mr Agunbundakiorraunboongo from my local handwash centre.


:lol: damn thats a big name!


----------



## bidderman1969

or the Master Detailer?


----------



## Guest

Actually I thought this was a site for and about trying to maintain a vehicle in a Professional Detailed way. A site where others come to learn how to perfect their methods to inflect the least amount of induced damage, in the quickest time, with tried and proven products and techniques.

The ones telling others they will show no proof, because it's good enough for a shopping mall environment or a parking garage don't seem to be worried as much about the customers vehicles as these professionals here.

I checked out one of those alleged "master detailers" in the states and saw vehicles being washed with power washers in pictures and not one word about having switched 90%+ to everything over to waterless. It wasn't until a later email specifically pinpointing this "Master detailer" down and giving a reference that he replied back as instructed like he was doing it as a paid endorsement.

For the ones here that are wishing this will work, put yourself in a customers position and assume you see these products for sale in a retail store, you purchase, go home, read the container and try the best you can. I'm guessing you'll soon return to your 2 bucket method as a bucket of water has been proven for about 3000 years to help remove dirt, LOL.


----------



## VIPER

Cyclo said:


> *Actually I thought this was a site for and about trying to maintain a vehicle in a Professional Detailed way. A site where others come to learn how to perfect their methods to inflect the least amount of induced damage, in the quickest time, with tried and proven products and techniques.*
> 
> The ones telling others they will show no proof, because it's good enough for a shopping mall environment or a parking garage don't seem to be worried as much about the customers vehicles as these professionals here.
> 
> I checked out one of those alleged "master detailers" in the states and saw vehicles being washed with power washers in pictures and not one word about having switched 90%+ to everything over to waterless. It wasn't until a later email specifically pinpointing this "Master detailer" down and giving a reference that he replied back as instructed like he was doing it as a paid endorsement.
> 
> For the ones here that are wishing this will work, put yourself in a customers position and assume you see these products for sale in a retail store, you purchase, go home, read the container and try the best you can. I'm guessing you'll soon return to your 2 bucket method as a bucket of water has been proven for about 3000 years to help remove dirt, LOL.


It is, but at the same time we (as a site) have to be open minded to new products and techniques otherwise we'll never evolve. There is an argument to say we don't _need_ to evolve and the old 'if it ain't broke...' saying could be used here, but I'm sure at least some elements of waterless procedures could be progressively introduced to many of our routines.

I'd like to bet that many people who currently snowfoam, and PW their cars in the summer when there's barely a light film of dust on it could, for example use an ONR wash or even one of the QD's designed for such purposes without inducing any paint damage, just because snowfoaming's fashionable on here or to justify the expenditure on all the associated kit.

It doesn't necessarily have to be 'all or nothing' - any new ideas introduced into an established industry, detailing or otherwise, are going to be questioned, and quite rightly, and there will always be people who will dismiss them out of hand. I'm sure the introduction of computers in offices were greeted with similar scepticism when pens and paper did the job adequately to use an example, but they're now commonplace.

I can see both sides of this with equal empathy really - those wanting concrete proof in pictures, videos or in person is entirely understandable when there's a business to run and a loyal customer base to satisfy. And those who are reluctant to post any results on here is also understandable, as they are fearing that it's placing themselves on a pedestal to be shot at by those who would still refute the findings, as to admit they work, would throw into question their entire working methods.

It is a tricky subject and will naturally have people come down on one side of the fence or the other, but I'd just ask everyone to try and keep an open mind on the whole subject until it's irrefutably proved, one way or another, that it does or doesn't work


----------



## caledonia

Well Said PV.


----------



## Auto Finesse

PV, whos dissmissing them out of hand??? all any one has asked for is some proof, if i told you i had a robin reliant with 600BHP your telling me you would not want to see proof ??? 

You can come on here say you have the best product in the world and then when you get asked some simple requests for direct light shots of paint turn around and say your not going to prove it LOL

If we where not open to new idea and products why would we all be changing to the latest sealants and waxes and products on the market all the time and not just stick to the tried and tested AG range ? we are open to sensible suggestions but it seems any reputable pro who has tried waterless wash has found fault and stuck with what works.

If this product is such a leap forward for waterless wash products surly the OP would want to show it off, why else post in the first place?


----------



## VIPER

james b said:


> PV, whos dissmissing them out of hand??? all any one has asked for is some proof, if i told you i had a robin reliant with 600BHP your telling me you would not want to see proof ???
> 
> You can come on here say you have the best product in the world and then when you get asked some simple requests for direct light shots of paint turn around and say your not going to prove it LOL
> 
> If we where not open to new idea and products why would we all be changing to the latest sealants and waxes and products on the market all the time and not just stick to the tried and tested AG range ? we are open to sensible suggestions but it seems any reputable pro who has tried waterless wash has found fault and stuck with what works.
> 
> If this product is such a leap forward for waterless wash products surly the OP would want to show it off, why else post in the first place?


Fair points, James, but I used the term 'dismissing it out of hand' very generally and just in the context of my point about new ideas being proposed into any given industry, it wasn't specifically to do with detailing per se, and certainly not at anyone specifically on here.

There's a bit of difference between trying a different type of LSP which still uses tried and tested application methods to what's being discussed here though isn't there? - to totally embrace a waterless routine is a radical departure in the entire way a car is detailed.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not on anyone's side here, and as I said before I totally empathise with pros like yourself wanting to see some evidence, as you would be quite understandably reluctant to change your current methods which work day in and day out. And I'd be the same in a similar position.


----------



## Auto Finesse

Not really i have been testing spray on CL coatings on paint work for months now and now trying out another new LSP that is applied in a paint both, all in the name of progress and better results for my clients, waterless for me has far to many hurdles to work properly IMO, diry wheels, wheel arches, door jambs and so on, need good old fasioned water detergent and a brush  its a fact


----------



## Clark @ PB

I also think alot of this is going to come down to how fussy you are. I've seen one persons idea of "light" marring and swirling and personally thought it was pretty horrendous!

Unless a waterless wash system comes out that can allow the same margin for error as the good old 2 bucket method then I'll never change...


----------



## drive 'n' shine

Like James I have been playing around with the latest in coatings (not spray application though) and while they are trickier to apply than normal wipe on wipe off LSP's they offer 'real' benefits, both in terms of business and for the customer, where as waterless in its present form just dosen't offer any benefits (apart from water usage) over traditional methods


----------



## Relaited

I have already learned my lesson. In the US, same and similar dialogue existed when all the “pros” come on and start talking about how much experience they have, etc. Most are talking from intuitive thinking, that this can’t possibly work. Some had tried others years ago, and they may not have worked, or most likely they probably did not have the proper technique. Most challenge the model without sufficient exploration. 

Again, I do not recommend that this be used on extreme dirt. If that is a large percentage of your cars, then best of luck to you, I choose to target an upscale clientele that does not get the cars that dirty. And yes, this model does work outside of California.

Now, in my experience, debating a “pro” is never going to get them to change their mind. The only way is seeing is believing, and actually the way that I have seen most effective is to have someone that has experience demonstrate it with products and technique that are proven to work. Any pictures or videos will simple elicit more of the same feedback … seeing is believing. Doing it that way is like trying to teach a pig to sing … frustrates you and annoys the pig.

I have offered to go and find samples of a company with a good product and is willing to ship. Also have offered to share best practices to achieve good results. Then you can take the picture

I will be sure to let all of our customers know that professionals think they are crazy for their complimenting us on our services, I will be sure to let them know the pros think they are wrong. Isn’t this about making money? 

I will give most that they have more experience with carnauba under their nails, but I find it hard to believe that anyone here has more education and professional business experience. Maybe same, but I doubt more. To think I would be investing all this time, money and energy in a process that scratches cars is just rubbish, in my opinion. 

Lastly, I think the foam is an absolute joke, in my opinion. How absolutely ugly, and it creates visible run off. That offends me terribly, and in my opinion gives the industry a bad name. We need to be more elegant, and control our waste. Like a fine chef, the work area is not all kinds of messy, and sloppy as it presents to a customer … no matter how good the food tastes. In my opinion, but I do not chase the Foam thread disparaging it at every comment.

-jim

PS No response from Paul Dalton on what he does with his waste water and contaminants …


----------



## Dream Machines

james b said:


> No offence intended here but all you guys bigging it up are new to the scene and not been doing it long and you come here and question the tried and tested methods of full time pros that have been in the industry for years,
> 
> the tried and true methods are great but I am here to say this
> there are new ways to do things and I challenge all to stray away from sticking to only the tried and true methods
> 
> We need to revolutionise the industry with all new technologies, processes and techniques
> 
> Abrasives for instance should not be your only arsenal if you are a professional detailer or as I like to call it - a refinisher.
> Non abrasive products can melt water spots, bury orange peel, fill in virtually every mark in paintwork and keep them locked in for at least a year, vijay can do it for seven he's that good.
> deep clean the paint, removing abrasive polish dust and other impurities which prevent a perfect glass reflection, no matter how much paint correction is done.
> 
> Working on the same layer of paint is much better than always removing paint to get the perfect shine
> 
> abrasives do not need to be used to remove wet sanding marks, they can be fused/melted out and gloss restored at the same time
> 
> Exterior trim can be machine polished without abrasives to a paint like finish like this
> (first trim was done by hand actually)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> many more new ways of doing the act of detailing are to come
> try radical techniques, test every product you buy on every surface of a vehicle, by machine and hand with towels, pads etc.
> thats how I found out how to use products in ways not described on the bottle's label.
> 
> First port of call being waterless for me, but I won't completely stray away from soap and water in high pressure form or foam gun
> there is a level of dirtiness where it's time to use a foam gun or high pressure soap and water to clean a car. such as muddy wheel arches and ATV's which have been in the mud and dirty roads.
> 
> semi waterless or full waterless are great. however quality (not truck wash) car soaps and RO/DI water are definately still needed sometimes so basically have both in your arsenal
> 
> Now I gotta find a filthy dirty car to clean so I can make videos for you all to see as I promised
> 
> Keep on shining people.


----------



## Relaited

Just an observation ... but when i look at the number of posts and views for topics here in the Eco Detailing Forum ... absolutely blows away anything else I am seeing on DW elsewhere, at least recently. The only thing that beasts it are some Sticky posts, but nothing else was coming close, on one topic, or across the board.

Maybe it is so new that everyone is just curious, but I hope it is because the pros are searching for solutions to presenting issues, and are wither interested or curious on how to improve the eco friendly aspects of our business.

If so, I think that the amount of water and controlling the contaminants and waste water generate the biggest wins, in my opinion.

-jim


----------



## Guest

spoken like a real shill


----------



## drive 'n' shine

Relaited said:


> I choose to target an upscale clientele that does not get the cars that dirty.


Look in the studio you'll find the majority of the cars in there are 'upscale' and most of us don't operate out of shopping malls offering cheap quick tidy ups from shopping (carts) trolleys 



Relaited said:


> I will be sure to let all of our customers know that professionals think they are crazy for their complimenting us on our services, I will be sure to let them know the pros think they are wrong.


Or they simply don't know any better?



Relaited said:


> I find it hard to believe that anyone here has more education and professional business experience.


Aren't you being a tad arrogant with that statement!



Relaited said:


> Lastly, I think the foam is an absolute joke, in my opinion. How absolutely ugly, and it creates visible run off. That offends me terribly, and in my opinion gives the industry a bad name.


Sure I can think of other ways to offend you 



Relaited said:


> Just an observation ... but when i look at the number of posts and views for topics here in the Eco Detailing Forum ... absolutely blows away anything else I am seeing on DW elsewhere, at least recently. The only thing that beasts it are some Sticky posts, but nothing else was coming close, on one topic, or across the board.


Most of it is the same regurgitated rubbish you keep spouting though


----------



## Relaited

Going to take a chance here, based on what the moderators have allowed here, maybe a friendly challenge to bring your Foam technique across the pond to a forum in the US 

EDITED !

Best of luck

-jim


----------



## Relaited

Drive n Shine, I am surprised that the moderators allow such a direct attack on my comments, seems to be a little favoritism going on here.

Must say I am disappointed to get the warning, when I am receiving posts like this.

Do you ever plan on adding any value?

Bottom line, would you like some cheese to go with your whine?

-jim


----------



## AndyC

......


----------



## AndyC

Relaited said:


> Isn't this about making money?
> 
> Lastly, I think the foam is an absolute joke, in my opinion. How absolutely ugly, and it creates visible run off. That offends me terribly, and in my opinion gives the industry a bad name. We need to be more elegant, and control our waste. Like a fine chef, the work area is not all kinds of messy, and sloppy as it presents to a customer … no matter how good the food tastes. In my opinion, but I do not chase the Foam thread disparaging it at every comment.


In response to your first question above, nope - this is the eco detailing section of DW.

If it's all about money then everyone needs to be clear from the start and it's a bit naughty to start with environmental issues and then turn the whole argument into a financial one.

As regards foam, all are made in accordance with strict environmental laws here in the UK and Europe governing what can and cannot be flushed down the drain.


----------



## Guest

Relaited said:


> Going to take a chance here, based on what the moderators have allowed here, maybe a friendly challenge to bring your Foam technique across the pond to a forum in the US http://www.
> 
> Best of luck
> 
> -jim


Your own site? now why would you start this?? I've seen you moderate worse there than is done here.

and then whining about posts you've received?? again.. it's all words.. I could type things here.. who would know their true or not.. wouldn't matter if they were, but i just made it sound like they were...

You just simply amaze me.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shill

BUT, I CAN toss up a PM I made, and that can be backed up by someone here who received it, where I said, the man is seeking attention, - any publicity is better than NO publicity and that's exactly what you just said. So all in all, I and a few know this won't work, so it's a good idea just to quit stopping in on this thread to see what is going on and let it die.. to you as long as the view count grows you think your winning.. others keep looking for proof, you've already said their will be no proof, so I ask myself why stop by any more? I'm not hoping for it to work, you seem to be working a crowd like a shill.


----------



## Gleammachine

Relaited said:


> Isn't this about making money?
> 
> PS No response from Paul Dalton on what he does with his waste water and contaminants …


Think this may be where your going wrong and where we disagree,

For me it's not all about the money but providing consistent quality and furthering my services and methods without sacrifice to my standards, also the passion for the job plays a big part.

I see no place in my armoury for waterless products at present and have little proof that any will offer anything appealing over my current methods.

I'm happy in the knowledge that my current water products confine to the current laws in this country.

Why would what PD does be of any interest to you? not even a member on the forum.


----------



## Clark @ PB

I think there's a hidden agenda amongst all these new members from across the pond IMO...


----------



## Dave KG

Relaited said:


> Drive n Shine, I am surprised that the moderators allow such a direct attack on my comments, seems to be a little favoritism going on here.
> 
> Must say I am disappointed to get the warning, when I am receiving posts like this.
> 
> *Do you ever plan on adding any value?*
> 
> Bottom line, would you like some cheese to go with your whine?
> 
> -jim


Do you ever plan on posting up some hard factual evidence that your water smart washing techniques offer customers marring free washing as we have been asking all along, and actually back up some of what you are saying as _that_ would actually add some _value_ to your discussion, rather than seeming to get a bit hot under the collar when an established pro questions your techniques.


----------



## AndyC

OK, time to put this debate on hold as it's;

a) winding up valued DW members whose opinions, skills and techniques are being called into question (not to mention their business acumen which isn't on) 

b) until we start to evaluate the products for real, as opposed to endless internet debating/arguing, then I personally am arguing from a standpoint of little or no knowledge - once I've played with these products then I can comment with a bit more hands-on experience.

c) heading towards a potentially ugly "them & us" situation. It's clear that North America may face a completely different set of climatic conditions and legislative issues that are different to the UK & Europe.

If people want to sling mud (no pun intended) then do it somewhere else please.


----------



## Guest

Clark said:


> I think there's a hidden agenda amongst all these new members from across the pond IMO...


I'm relatively new and from across the pond, but I don't take it that you would lump me in with this.. That man actually runs a chain of car wash locations and it's in his interests to perpetuate his income source. He has another vested interest party posting to support him, Together they run that web site he posted about.

All people here were wanting to see: was a detailed report of techniques with foto's to back up his claims. Not cropped foto's or ones that are dubious, but legit actual ones where no doubt is left in someones mind that what they see or read can be considered doctored in any way.

In other words in the states this is what we see:


----------



## Clark @ PB

Cyclo - I wasnt aiming my comment at yourself, I'm glad you assumed that was the case also :thumb:


----------



## Relaited

Gents, if you could please articulate what my hidden agenda is. I have absolutely no way to financially benefit from anything I am advocating. My business is in Orange County California, and even if you did get excited about a Water $mart Eco Detailing model, right now there is absolutely no way I can financially benefit from it. None, go ahead and waste your time thinking about it, it does not exists.

One has to wonder why I choose to endure this stuff, and I have no good answer other than I am a believer in the model. It is working tremendous for me. There has been similar resistance here in my market, a resistance that as a businessman first and detailer second has been to my advantage. In Office locations, they are prying the pressure washer from the white knuckles of the Detailer first, businessman second who refuses to evolve.

I think my business experience is an important fact to talk about. My opinion is that most Detailers are good to great technicians, and horrible business people. It might hurt some egos, but I believe it to be fact.

Folks want facts … I am growing in the worst economy in years! Fact … I am displacing traditional detailers at a pretty fast rate, could do more with time and money. Fact … Drought and regulatory constraints of contaminant and waste water control of discharge … which is accelerating the acceptance. Fact, Property Owners and Home owners Associations, and any commercial property, these decision makers are favoring this model, and soon will be demanding Water #$mart Eco Detailing. It is a definition beyond waterless.

Advice to the Industry newbie. When you need technical advice, listen to those on DW, I am sure they have great technical skills to achieve your desired results, seriously. However, if you want to compete and win, then adopt the principles of water $mart Eco Detailing, that you will be conscious about how much water you use, that you will eliminate run off and make their property look elegant, and prevent any discharge to the storm drains. Choose other Eco Friendly options. Take pictures of how the other guys operate, share that with the property decision makers. You can compete and win with this model. It will work … good luck, don’t take no for an answer.

-jim


----------



## Clark @ PB

...And then try to look after your customer as best as you can when they call you up a week later telling you they've screwed their paint up with this nice and easy waterless wash solution.

I'm sorry but I'm unsubscribing to this thread now as it's a complete waste of my time. All these pages and no concrete evidence to suggest we should change.


----------



## Relaited

Clark,

I offered business facts. To a businessman, they are valuable.

Before you leave, please remember that you have not added any value to the discussion here.

Have you ever tried any of the Water $mart products, if so, please share. For those that have not tried one or many, not sure how one can participate in the debate?

For those that have tried, what brands, and what were the issues?

-jim


----------



## Refined Detail

Clark said:


> ...And then try to look after your customer as best as you can when they call you up a week later telling you they've screwed their paint up with this nice and easy waterless wash solution.
> 
> I'm sorry but I'm unsubscribing to this thread now as it's a complete waste of my time. All these pages and no concrete evidence to suggest we should change.


Well said. I have been subscribed to this since page 1 and read with great interest the entire thread - hoping to be convinced that waterless detailing is the way forward, but I just can't be convinced. Maybe it's something that works in countries where cars don't get so dirty, over here I can't see it catching on as it does create paint defects - I have tried them a while back, and my Dad has done too, can't remember what make they were, but they were from the US. CBA to keep reading this thread anymore as it's just turning into a big argument.


----------



## Gleammachine

Relaited said:


> However, if you want to compete and win, then adopt the principles of water Eco Detailing, that you will be conscious about how much water you use, that you will eliminate run off and make their property look elegant, and prevent any discharge to the storm drains. Choose other Eco Friendly options. Take pictures of how the other guys operate, share that with the property decision makers. You can compete and win with this model. It will work … good luck, don't take no for an answer.
> 
> -jim


Jim, without going back through the whole thread, Out of interest what client base is your eco business aimed upon? ie.. High end vehicles, supermarket/shopping mall carparks etc.


----------



## Relaited

*How to safely clean and protect your wheels *
Find out how to wash and clean alloy rims and wheelcovers, how to remove stubborn accumulations of brake dust safely and effectively, how to clean, nourish and protect tyres, and how to apply wax or sealant protection to alloy rims and wheelcovers and prevent brake dust adhesion and corrosion...

*How to safely clean and protect your engine bay *
Find out how to clean your engine bay using environmentally friendly degreasing sprays, how to rinse off your engine safely using a hose, how to clean, nourish and protect rubber hoses, how to clean and protect plastic trims and how to clean, polish and protect metal surfaces...

Clark, I went to your site. looks like you have a nice business, appears to be a success. I pulled the above, could not get the pictures. But my issue is around the run off. Unless those pictures do not include the proper containment out of frame, I take issue with the way the wheels and engines are being cleaned. It is not about a biodegradable chemical when one is blasting harmful contaminants off the wheel or engine.

If one operates from the mindset that the waste water runoff uncontrolled, with all the contaminants is an issue, then the Water $mart Eco Detailing makes more sense. If one operates from the who cares perspective, then I can see why one is not interested in change.

-jim


----------



## Relaited

Gleam Machine. I think this is what I have recently read is a “Blue Ocean Strategy”. Red Ocean is one that has blood in the water, as competitors fight over customers. Blue Ocean strategies render the competition irrelevant!

I select my locations of operations to target the upscale customer. High Rise Office with a concentration of Professionals, Lawyers, Accountants, etc. or at a Shopping Mall, right outside the high end Anchor Store.

We do get Soccer Moms, with trashed interiors, but the exterior is typically no muddy, etc.

I am confident a similar model can be adopted just about anywhere. It eliminates many of the presenting issues shared here.

-jim


----------



## Auto Finesse

It dont make Business sense to charge some one 500 pounds or more to get there pride and joy super clean and the paint work imaculate to then go an clean it in a manor that compromises the finish and work put in, then have to repair the paint work again to remove all the swirls and marring caused by using the waterless product, and for what at the end of the day ? to save some water, in this country it rains 10x more than the sun shines, or to present to a client? well most here like my self, clark and brian are working from our work shops and the water would have long draind away by the time the car is collected, i for one always have a sweep up and mop the floors before a client arives to collect a car and make sure the work shop is nice and tidy (as do most other i suspect)

All you are doing is trying to promote your own product.



Gleammachine said:


> Jim, without going back through the whole thread, Out of interest what client base is your eco business aimed upon? ie.. High end vehicles, supermarket/shopping mall carparks etc.


The partially sighted and banger racers :lol:


----------



## drive 'n' shine

Relaited said:


> I take issue with the way the wheels and engines are being cleaned. It is not about a biodegradable chemical when one is blasting harmful contaminants off the wheel or engine.
> 
> -jim


Maybe you should look a bit harder on PB site you'll see they use a catch mat


----------



## Neil_S

Relaited said:


> I take issue with the way the wheels and engines are being cleaned.
> -jim


Jim, I don't think it is your place to "take issue" with how any member of this site chooses to detail a vehicle.

You are welcome to express your alternative approach to detailing however.


----------



## AndyC

Jim,

I've asked nicely and politely for the topic to stay on thread. I've asked that the business acumen of professional detailers isn't questioned and I'm wondering which part of that you don't understand.

As it happens, the company I work for provides professional services to a number of DW members. I have discussed their business at length outside the forum and I can say without prejudice that your inference that they aren't business people is both insulting and unnecessary.

I'm loathed to close or delete this thread but it's now going in circles. For the last time I'm asking that it stay on topic or it will be removed without further notice.
Thank you.


----------



## caledonia

Ok Jim.
I have asked for details of these products and information regarding techniques in applying them.
Back on Pg 7 post 70.
http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showpost.php?p=1355094&postcount=70

I will ask you once again. Can you contact me about this and who know it might get the ball rolling.
Yes I am in the minority. 
And will probably get some stick.
But I still have an open mind to different products and technique, so would be graceful. If you can supply me the information, I require.
Gordon


----------



## Auto Finesse

Im sure Waterless car cleaning has it place but i dont think it can be intergrated to "proper" detailing.


----------



## Deano

^^ we all have an open mind on it gordon but when we're told foaming is the work of satan (despite it being tried,tested, and proven to work) and now we're bad businessmen apparantly and clarks a sinner for using degreaser. All we've asked for is proof the stuff doesnt marr.If it doesnt it could be a viable alternative. Hell it would save carting water tanks and the like. but all we;ve had instead of proof is a mountain of waffle. Foaming works. end of. and unless those arguing waterless doesnt marr post proof of that, i'll stick to the methods that i know wont F**k up a cars paint job.
none of that aimed at you directly BTW gordon.:thumb: just saying a few have expressed interest but still no proof.


----------



## Gleammachine

Relaited said:


> Gleam Machine. I think this is what I have recently read is a "Blue Ocean Strategy". Red Ocean is one that has blood in the water, as competitors fight over customers. Blue Ocean strategies render the competition irrelevant!
> 
> -jim


I have no idea what this means?

Let me ask, are any sacrifices made in the finish of the paintwork in support of using waterless products and selling your business as an enviromentally friendly company.
Personally if I could only produce a finish that was 85% perfect then I wouldn't want to be in a profession such as detailing, I'm a firm believer in being the best you possibly can with the chosen profession, for this reason there is no room for waterless in my current approach, those that do apply these methods I wish them well, but do not wish for them to preach there beliefs to me.
I may be talking out of turn here, but judging from some of your comments, your more about the money and promoting your product, than the love of detailing, please either give a good account of the product in some form of review with pictures and share your findings in the community spirit of DW or I see this eco thread going any further.


----------



## caledonia

I understand this Dean and I also did not mean my comment to offend.

I was only trying as has been mention to get back on Topic.

But even now it is still drifting back to personal issues and company names.
Until I know more about this product or techniques then. I am not able to coment on this. So that is where I stand or sit on the fence. I do not expect an over night answer to whether it works. But I can expect a quicker answer if it does not. 
But the biggest issue. Is what happens if this product can do a job successfully. Would or could I recommend it to the masses. I don't think so. As with everything in life there is a learning curve and things take time to master. But any product can be dangerous in inexperienced hands. Including harmless clay.

But it has been said so many times now. This post is going round in circles and getting now where.

So my offer stands. If Jim decides to contact me about this, and supply me with the information to try this out. I will give it a good good. Not just a 5 minute run out.

Gordon.


----------



## Jakedoodles

Clark said:


> ...And then try to look after your customer as best as you can when they call you up a week later telling you they've screwed their paint up with this nice and easy waterless wash solution.
> 
> I'm sorry but I'm unsubscribing to this thread now as it's a complete waste of my time. All these pages and no concrete evidence to suggest we should change.


As have I. Clark has summed this whole debacle up nicely.


----------



## Jakedoodles

Relaited said:


> The one thing I will not do is to take pictures and post to a bunch of gents that all it seems they can do is pop off with "show me the pictures". I get it, you will not use these products until someone proves it to you. Well I for one am not going to be doing that, as I believe you must prove it to yourself. I have offered samples from a company that I think can send them, with only 1 taker … only one.
> 
> So, I would respectfully ask that all those posters who come to this thread to say things like "I will not be using this product until someone shows me a picture" … that they refrain from that, I get it, I think we get it, and it is taking away from those of us who wish to share and learn on the topic.


Funny that - because if someone asks me to post some pictures of how my technique does NOT damage a car, I will happily do this, because I am 100% confident in my products, technique and end result. That is a car in better condition than when I got there, not worse.

The fact you are unwilling to post any pictures proving that your product is what you say it is, aptly sums up this entire issue in my eyes.

As AndyC rightly said, you are degrading a group of highly skilled professionals such as myself, who use time honoured techniques and products, and do so because what our customers demand necessitates the use of these products and techniques. Nowhere in this thread have you acknowledged this, instead chosing to degrade us and quote our techniques as a joke.

As has been repeated in this thread over and over; provide us with hard evidence that back your claims, and we'll listen, but seeing as you've chosen to deny us such evidence, then what is the point?


----------



## Relaited

Andy,

Wow, kind of a one way street. Others can say that I am a shill, that i am scratching and degrading paint, making personal assaults, and no where do I see you addressing this issue. That’s OK.

I see the biggest difference and critical driver, not the climate or weather, but that there does not seem to be any requirements to capture waste water and contaminants. You can foam away into the street and storm drain, or at least there is not enforcement. Could be wrong, but that is one of the key drivers of this model. If a mobile detailer had to roll out a wash mat, reclaim, properly discharge, go spend the money on these tools and accommodate them into their mobile rig, I think you would see more enthusiasm to properly understand this model and seek ways to adopt it.

I think it would be a horrible business decision to delete this or any other Eco Detailing thread, in my observation, they are the most viewed topics here on DW.

I just spent the last couple days with several industry veterans, many of whom were as opposed to the model on e year ago, but have got involved and are now champions. They read their initial posts and can’t believe they had such a change of opinion. Not because of some picture, but because they were shown a good product and technique. One still carries water, with all the proper capture equipment, and has not been able to convert all of his customers. But he is 20+ years in the business, same standards as many have shared here. Please remember you are challenging him, as much as me. As professionals, we reject such an opinion.

-jim


----------



## Guest

Time to delete this thread..


----------



## PJS

Jim,
I've stayed out of this thread, after seeing the way it degenerated, but I really can't help but be perplexed by your continuing in the same vein as before.
Surely to God, as you've not thus far, been able to convince a number of the "contributors" (loose use of the word there, in your view perhaps) your product usage results in as little damage as a traditional bucket and mitt regime does, would it not make sense for you to put them in their place with some pictures, proving your position and claims?
After all, they say a picture speaks a thousand words - so if you can disprove their shouts of charlatan/snake oil salesman with conclusive proof of the effects (or lack thereof) of using your rinseless/waterless regime, then there'd be less of an ill-feeling towards either yourself or the process.

To be blunt, it could be fair to say put up, or shut up - in other words, prove what you say is factual, and not the stuff fairy tales are made of, or else just forget about trying to persuade the doubters with just rhetoric.
Don't use the "you must prove it for yourself" nonsense - that comes after you've done your bit with the images, which will then drive/inspire those doubtful, that you MAY actually be worth listening to in more detail - both procedurally and business-sense.

Unfortunately, until then, I can see no further point in you expending your time and efforts trying to change their opinion of yourself, and your business model, which makes one wonder what the whole point of this thread was about in the first place!

So, please get the images uploaded, linked here, and make the doubting Thomases believers that you're onto something, and that it's not all talk, no action. Or as we also say, all mouth, and no trousers/pants - don't ask, I've no idea where it originated or how it means the same thing!


----------



## PJS

PM from Relaited said:


> I don't get the use of Foam, and don't get the requirement of pictures. I went down this path with the US detailers, did not work. I have nothing to benefit from advocating this model. I know it works well. In the US there are compelling events that necessitate change.
> 
> A Water Eco Detailing model costs less, and achieves compliance to increasingly strict codes and standards.
> 
> I can't figure out why DW folks are so resistant to change? It was the same way a while ago in the US. But there are several thought leaders, in my opinion, long term industry veterans, 20+ years experience, I would put them up against any Detailers in the world. I also think they are some of the best business people I have met … and they are embracing this model. Some have been doing it for 10 years as they also detail air planes, and an airport is a zero discharge environment, so a Water approach is necessary, detailer does not have a choice.
> 
> So, intuitively, these industry veterans, same as you and others, do you really think that they are maring and scratching, etc. One of the biggest names is in Boise Idaho, lots and lots of snow, and the majority of times, it works for him, occasionally he needs or wants to take out the pressure washer, and chooses to drive 2 mile to a self serve rather than break out the wash mats and reclamation mats.
> 
> I will not be posting pictures, in my opinion it will not encourage anyone to change their mind.
> 
> Saw a guy today, asked him about this whole agenda thing. He said that he thought that at first, but now that he knows me, he thinks I do not have enough of an agenda. My wife agrees!


To be frank Jim, while you maintain YOUR entrenched position over the straightforwardness of posting a few images up, then surely it doesn't take a genius to work out those doubting the validity of your responses will be as equally entrenched in their views.
If you're really so against doing something as simple and easy as putting up a few pics to back up your claims, then I think this thread has pretty much had its time in the sun, so to speak, and is best left to fade away, until some of the UK members have put some of the products to the test, and posted up the images others would like to see, before getting all excited about something new to add to their regime.

Meant in as respectful a manner as possible, but being my usual blunt self - you've not done anything here to ingratiate yourself to the spirit of Detailing World.
It's such a shame really, since it's never nice to have to pull someone over blowing smoke up the collective ar5e of DW, but unfortunately, that's how you/this thread comes across, and it saddens me to have to say so.

As intimated in my earlier comments above, it does puzzle me why you're so reticent to give the doubters here "the bird", in effect, by demonstrating in pictorial form, that what you say verbally, can be backed up visually.
It's so easy to do, and be done with, that there's no logical explanation for not doing so, other than something you wish to remain hidden or kept from public scrutiny/rebuking.

You said in your message, you've done this before, but the doubters still doubted you - could it be the images didn't portrait what they needed to, or that the lack of damage was found....well....lacking, for want of a better word.

Thus far Jim, all I've seen from your comments in total, is anecdotal evidence, and even that's being extremely generous with the use of the phrase.

Sorry Jim, but I fear Detailing World may not be the place for you to spend any more of your internet time on, until you have a change of stance on the pictures front.

On that sad note, I'll leave you (and this thread) with the adage that talk is cheap, but it takes money to buy beer.
In other words, enough rhetoric, pontificating, and postulating, it's time to let the pictures speak volumes about your product/process/business model.

All the best.


----------



## WHIZZER

^ Master of disambiguation at his best .... Have to agree - We need some products to try and pictures to prove that "waterless wash" is a better technique !


----------



## Bigpikle

WHIZZER said:


> ^ Master of disambiguation at his best .... Have to agree - We need some products to try and pictures to prove that "waterless wash" is a better technique !


Bill

I have bought some product to test, have received some tuition on how to use it properly, have some recommended 'kit' to apply it with and will give it a first 'proper' try when I get back from my week away on business. Its only 1 product, but based on the 4-5 others I have already tried, I think it is likely to be one of the best available right now, and bears no relation to most of the product available in the UK right now (I know as I have numerous bottles sitting in my garage bin) - but until I try it in depth I have no idea if that is good enough or not...

If and when I work out how to use it properly then I'll pass some on to others to try for themselves, along with some guidance in how to use it etc. Until that time I'm going to quietly try it out and make up my own mind about what, if any, place it has in my detailing routine. If its rubbish I'll save others the time in trying to discredit it, and if it has merit I'll try and work out how best to pass it along to people so they can try it for themselves.

I really dont see the point in simply sending out bottles of product without a solid idea of how best to use it etc, as its clear to me from this thread that no positives can come from that....


----------



## WHIZZER

Damon im sure that we will get a good unbiased test from you - if it works then thats great and a step in the right direction.

I hope that once you get the idea on how to use it properly you will post up your findings good and bad .


----------



## Bigpikle

WHIZZER said:


> Damon im sure that we will get a good unbiased test from you - if it works then thats great and a step in the right direction.
> 
> I hope that once you get the idea on how to use it properly you will post up your findings good and bad .


thats the plan :thumb:

When the Audi gets back from the bodyshop with some fresh paint, it will make the perfect test vehicle, as the colour shows swirls nicely. The Saab is far too silver to be of any use in testing for swirling....


----------



## bidderman1969

any update on this, as it seems to have died a death?


----------



## Bigpikle

bidderman1969 said:


> any update on this, as it seems to have died a death?


yep - we're testing a product but wont be posting anything about it until we have more results


----------



## bidderman1969

:thumb:


----------



## Dream Machines

I would be very interested in people adding a list of the waterless and semi waterless products that they have tried

Semi waterless is my personal style of cleaning
these products are nature based, not petro chemical based with fillers, pumice or kaolin clay

what I dislike about full waterless products are that almost all are chemical based and will strip off your sealants and waxes and must be the only product used to clean and polish it


----------



## caledonia

Dream Machines said:


> what I dislike about full waterless products are that almost all are chemical based and will strip off your sealants and waxes and must be the only product used to clean and polish it


No all. 

But still on going tests. Should be complete by May.:thumb:


----------



## Mirror Finish Details

Firstly we are not wasting water, all mine goes down the drain and back to the sewer works, I only use ph friendly products. Don't forget we eventually drink the water we flushed our turds away with.

I will carry on snow foaming the cars, again ph neutral and power washing, I'm paying for the stuff anyway.

Untill the waterless wash is proven I will carry on filling the drains.


----------



## Bigpikle

plankton said:


> Firstly we are not wasting water, all mine goes down the drain and back to the sewer works, I only use ph friendly products. Don't forget we eventually drink the water we flushed our turds away with.
> 
> I will carry on snow foaming the cars, again ph neutral and power washing, I'm paying for the stuff anyway.
> 
> Untill the waterless wash is proven I will carry on filling the drains.


your drains in the street DONT go to a sewage works - they go to the local streams and rivers, complete with your foam etc. Only your waste from toilets and sinks etc goes to the treatment works.

If you are washing vehicles for money then allowing that waste into any storms drains is NOT allowed anyway


----------



## bidderman1969

Bigpikle said:


> your drains in the street DONT go to a sewage works - they go to the local streams and rivers, complete with your foam etc. Only your waste from toilets and sinks etc goes to the treatment works.
> 
> If you are washing vehicles for money then allowing that waste into any storms drains is NOT allowed anyway


like Tesco's, etc? (car washers)


----------



## caledonia

bidderman1969 said:


> like Tesco's, etc? (car washers)


Like any business or person doing it on the public highway or private car parks.

All covered by the same law. Prohibiting run off or chemicals entering storm drains. All run off and chemicals should be collected and disposed of property.


----------



## Relaited

Full waterless products are often petrolium based ... In my opinion, takes away from the green & eco benefit.

Also, as a commercial entity, you would be shipping ready to use. Costly and in no way green. If you ship in concentrate ... then you have to add water ... oil & water do not mix.

Plus, I do not like the performance of this type of product, definitely not on windows.

-jim


----------



## reparebrise

plankton said:


> Until the waterless wash is proven I will carry on filling the drains.


And what are you doing to prove it to yourself?


----------



## Relaited

I'll take a shot ... using this foam stuff until someone posts pictures of proof.


----------



## Bigpikle

reparebrise said:


> And what are you doing to prove it to yourself?





Relaited said:


> I'll take a shot ... using this foam stuff until someone posts pictures of proof.


:lol: you guys do make me laugh :thumb: With almost zero enforcements of the current regulations there is sadly no NEED for people to actually try and prove stuff might work...

Hopefully we'll have some useful test results fairly soon and a few opportunities to give people a chance to get hands-on with the test product


----------



## Bluetacker

Pikle and Caledonia - you are both such teases!


----------



## caledonia

Bluetacker said:


> Pikle and Caledonia - you are both such teases!


You should see what we do to each other then. :lol:

Time is a wonderful thing. :thumb:


----------



## Bigpikle

caledonia said:


> You should see what we do to each other then. :lol:


 

WTF

:lol:


----------



## reparebrise

Bigpikle said:


> WTF
> 
> :lol:


That could be taken many ways, but we'll take it in the strangest way.


----------



## Bluetacker

HEH! I couldn't think of a family friendly reply, so I left it. :thumb::lol:


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## Bigpikle

Might have to use my new mod powers to edit that to something less dubious :lol:


----------



## Steve Baker

As a relative newcomer to serious detailing I have a very open mind to waterless cleaning. My car gets cleaned more than driven and as a result is unlikely to require pressure washing etc to remove dust while sitting in the garage! Having trawled through 18 pages I had hoped to see detail and photo's of a system I could adopt in preference to dragging out the pressure washer every week. Oh well guess not?


----------



## bidderman1969

Steve Baker said:


> As a relative newcomer to serious detailing I have a very open mind to waterless cleaning. My car gets cleaned more than driven and as a result is unlikely to require pressure washing etc to remove dust while sitting in the garage! Having trawled through 18 pages I had hoped to see detail and photo's of a system I could adopt in preference to dragging out the pressure washer every week. Oh well guess not?


this is the most frustrating thing, all the hype but no "prrof"

hopefully tho, this will be changing soon


----------



## CupraRcleanR

bidderman1969 said:


> this is the most frustrating thing, all the hype but no "prrof"
> 
> hopefully tho, this will be changing soon


Yes becoming boring now. Maybe waterless will be ok for the masses who don't care, know about swirls but for detailers????

Hopefully the tests from the respected members on here will tell us one way or the other but the pictures and results of these wonder products seem as rare as hens teeth.


----------



## Relaited

I am not sure what products are specifically available to you. On the US Forums, I have listed all that I know, many times.

Perhaps the product offerings are not as widely available? This was the case not to long ago, maybe 4 years ago, in the US.

Here is the same advice I offered the US folks when they shared the same frustration.

Shouldn't each of you who want more information be channeling your frustration towards your Product Distributor? You go to him, and buy all this product and chemicals, yet you have to go spend time and money seeking info on a forum?

And, even if you found something, reality is that a Distributor is the best person for this, many import issues, warehousing, etc

So, please let us know what you Distributor says ... don't take no for an answer, and you have the opportunity to vote everyday. For me, I do not use the Distributor closest to my house. He does not support Water $mart Eco Detailing principles, and he also sells chemicals to all the Jose & Hose B's that are illegal immigrants, and create all sorts of industry issues.

Vote Everyday!

-jim


----------



## bidderman1969

well, there are loads of products that get used by loads of people on here who post up their results, in their own time, and free, but there doesnt seem to be any of these "products", question that springs to mind is "why not, if its that great?"


----------



## Bigpikle

I feel your pain guys with more information.

Myself and Caledonia/Gordon have a product that we are using a fair bit and testing out to see what if any applications it might have and what is the truth about swirling etc. The compounding bad news is that its a product you cant even buy in the UK....none of the stuff I found available here looked up to what I wanted it to do 

There are a couple of reasons we have not put up anything so far:

1. we are trying to do a little more thorough analysis than 1 quick before and after picture of a panel, that will not really prove much and would be far too easy to dispute anyway. That was set back by my test car spending the last 3 weeks in a bodyshop, but now I have a fresh new perfect painted panel to use for a while :thumb:

2. part of the answer is technique, and we have both been learning how best to use a product like this. I know I have so far tried 3 different spray application tools alone to try and get it right. I am convinced as much depends on proper use as product - just like many elements of successful detailing.

What is already VERY clear to us is that not all these types of product are the same - in fact I have about 6 bottles of various stuff here and they are all wildly different. I am NOT aiming to show you a wonder product, but rather establish whether, with the right type of products and right technique, its possible to use 'waterless' products safely - or not?

Of course, as has already been said, some of these products are 90% water already, so 'waterless' is not quite the right term, but if you can wash an entire car (paint & glass & wheels) with 200ml of product then its as close to waterless as possible...

If you come to James B's meet at the end of May then you can see and try some for yourself


----------



## Steve Baker

Bigpikle said:


> If you come to James B's meet at the end of May then you can see and try some for yourself


When and where will it be held? :thumb:


----------



## Bigpikle

Steve Baker said:


> When and where will it be held? :thumb:


http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=111035


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## caledonia

2 points Damon.
First your using to much product. :lol:

Secondly I have already demonstrated the wash process. Not in front of the masses. A select 5 members. Hoping that the detailing meet in Scotland will present another opportunity to demonstrate this product also. If members are interested. 

They will also have the opportunity to see the test panel on the car. That has been wash exclusively with this product 10 times now. It was witnessed by a few established members of the forum. Who verified this to have been machine to a swirl free area. The same members will also inspect this panel at the beginning of May.

All we ask is the Patience it show. After all, you would not like people to recommend a product as safe. When It surely is not.

But as Damon said it is as much as technique as anything else in life. There for it is not a spray swipe product.

For now tests are on going and will continue for the near future. So please be patient.

Gordon.


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## Serious

Kin ell, that took some reading.

A friend of mine has a wedding car business and has been asking about a safe waterless product to use on location.

Looking forward to the results guys. Ta.


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## Ultimate Valet

proper detailer said:


> Im opening a waterless car wash in every multistorey car park in london , watch this space pics will be up once im home , it really is the business this stuff , and its not even out in the market yet


What's the update with this one Proper Detailer... are you home yet?


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