# The Dangers or Wetsanding



## Affection to Detail (Jul 6, 2006)

After the discussion in this thread: http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=67563

I decided I would do a quick video today inbetween working. I'm a professional (stunt man) so for obvious reasons won't recommend that anyone just do this and or that its 100% safe to do.






Enjoy

Nad

P.S. This was just a demo, full car was done with air tools.

P.P.S. If you have anything negative to say, don't bother, because I'm not bothered. You're allowed to say its unsafe though, that way, people may actually go and buy a proper air sander instead and bring the prices down for everyone!


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## Wol (Mar 31, 2008)

:devil: :lol:


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## Neil_S (Oct 26, 2005)

Nice video, don't reckon much on the music though :lol:


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## honda-r (Mar 20, 2007)

Looks like electric sander are ok for wet sanding. Great. Lol. Nice video


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## -ROM- (Feb 23, 2007)

<gets popcorn and awaits ZoranC to arrive!>


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## S63 (Jan 5, 2007)

honda-r said:


> Looks like electric sander are ok for wet sanding. Great. Lol. Nice video


No, No, No, No..


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## dsolds (Feb 13, 2008)

OK, any electricians on here care to comment?
From my perspective, most (if not all) modern power tools are double insulated. That is, plastic cases and no earth lead. The mains cable only ever has 2 cores, live and neutral. 
How then is a RCD supposed to protect against electrocution if the current is conducted via water to the hand? No current will flow to earth so how does the RCD know there is leakage (and thus trip out) ???
I don't see that it would. Which makes this potentially very dangerous.


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## dsolds (Feb 13, 2008)

rmorgan84 said:


> <gets popcorn and awaits ZoranC to arrive!>


Didn't he get banned?


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## Mark J (May 10, 2007)

dsolds said:


> Didn't he get banned?


Bugger! 

I'm going to bed then


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## -ROM- (Feb 23, 2007)

must have missed that! Couldn't have happened to a nicer bloke:lol:


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## dsolds (Feb 13, 2008)

rmorgan84 said:


> must have missed that! Couldn't have happened to a nicer bloke:lol:


Well, to follow this wetsanding thread, he was a tad, erm, abrasive. I'll get my coat.


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## Brazo (Oct 27, 2005)

Electric and water don't mix - simple. 

However its safe to stick a sword down your throat if you know what your doing! 

But do people know what they are doing? On the whole I would say its an unsafe practive for most people.


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## S63 (Jan 5, 2007)

dsolds said:


> Well, to follow this wetsanding thread, he was a tad, erm, abrasive. I'll get my coat.


Didn't know the guy, did he create a bit of friction?

Get my coat too.


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## DE 1981 (Aug 17, 2007)

rmorgan84 said:


> <gets popcorn and awaits ZoranC to arrive!>


yeh the composition of that video is all to pot and as for the blantant guerilla marketing dont get me started.

:wave:


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## Affection to Detail (Jul 6, 2006)

Neil_S said:


> Nice video, don't reckon much on the music though :lol:


That was Radio 1, dont blame me.



dsolds said:


> OK, any electricians on here care to comment?
> From my perspective, most (if not all) modern power tools are double insulated. That is, plastic cases and no earth lead. The mains cable only ever has 2 cores, live and neutral.
> How then is a RCD supposed to protect against electrocution if the current is conducted via water to the hand? No current will flow to earth so how does the RCD know there is leakage (and thus trip out) ???
> I don't see that it would. Which makes this potentially very dangerous.


The RCD was to protect the supply, not me.



Brazo said:


> Electric and water don't mix - simple.
> 
> However its safe to stick a sword down your throat if you know what your doing!
> 
> But do people know what they are doing? On the whole I would say its an unsafe practive for most people.


Very true.



Gavb said:


> yeh the composition of that video is all to pot and as for the blantant guerilla marketing dont get me started.
> 
> :wave:


Which bit of marketing and whats wrong with the composition 

Just to point out, this comes at the bottom of a list of dangerous things I've done before. If it bothered me I wouldn't have done it. Driving a car is more dangerous.


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## dsolds (Feb 13, 2008)

Brazo said:


> Electric and water don't mix - simple.
> 
> However its safe to stick a sword down your throat if you know what your doing!
> 
> But do people know what they are doing? On the whole I would say its an unsafe practive for most people.


It's quite safe to play russian roulette 5 times out of six. The trouble is that you cannot accurately predict when the sixth time is coming.

Since electricity cannot be seen, smelled, heard etc, you only know it's there when you get a shock, which is a bit late really.

You won't catch me doing THAT. Even with odds of 1000:1, I value my life more than the required 110 quid for an air sander.

Darwin awards come to mind.


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## Affection to Detail (Jul 6, 2006)

dsolds said:


> It's quite safe to play russian roulette 5 times out of six. The trouble is that you cannot accurately predict when the sixth time is coming.
> 
> Since electricity cannot be seen, smelled, heard etc, you only know it's there when you get a shock, which is a bit late really.
> 
> ...


May I just point out I've already paid £110 for an air sander. I was just making a point. I've been electcuted before through no fault of my own. Wasn't so bad 

I'll throw the whole machine in tomoz just to watch it blow up if you want? I think Dave KG made a valid point in the other thread. This sort of thing happens all the time, if you take the **** and push your luck you deserve everything you get.

The point of the video was to show the way the water is transfered and drawn through the machine, if at all. This is a point that Steve said may be dangerous. As shown, little if any water is drawn through. Why I don't advise dipping the machine into the water, using damp pads doesnt seem to allow moisture anywhere near the electrics which are way up in the handle.


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## dsolds (Feb 13, 2008)

Affection to Detail said:


> Just to point out, this comes at the bottom of a list of dangerous things I've done before. If it bothered me I wouldn't have done it. Driving a car is more dangerous.


Depends how you drive. Let me know when you're on the roads and I'll stay home thanks.

Sorry chap, that was dangerous in my book. Worse still is that it might lead the darwin award contenders to believe it was safe.

I was a qualified electrician as part of my HND back in the 80's but this was before RCD's were around, hence my question about them. I have never worked as a sparkie so the theory is old, but last time I checked, water & electricity together was a very bad idea.

What you demonstrated was a couple of short passes. Prolonged usage like that, particularly on vertical panels would definitely lead to water ingress in the tool, and that, as they say, would probably lead to a shock.


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## Affection to Detail (Jul 6, 2006)

dsolds said:


> Depends how you drive. Let me know when you're on the roads and I'll stay home thanks.
> 
> Sorry chap, that was dangerous in my book. Worse still is that it might lead the darwin award contenders to believe it was safe.
> 
> ...


I was on about driving in general, not my driving. I've not said at any point that it was safe to do full stop. If it was I wouldnt have bothered with the air tools.

Anyway, now you've got me thinking about water ingress I'll jump into the swimming pool tomoz with it on just to check if its safe.....

I think you're missing the point of this post. It was tongue in cheek as some people were getting so wound up in the other thread, which discussed that air was a lot safer than elec tools.

Maybe I should have put it in funnies?


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## dsolds (Feb 13, 2008)

Affection to Detail said:


> I was on about driving in general, not my driving. I've not said at any point that it was safe to do full stop. If it was I wouldnt have bothered with the air tools.


But you miss my point. Demonstrating something which is unsafe could lead others (dopey sods I admit) to believe it is OK when clearly it is not.

Tell you what. I'll accept your point that it is technically possible. Definitely not advisable though.


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## Affection to Detail (Jul 6, 2006)

dsolds said:


> But you miss my point. Demonstrating something which is unsafe could lead others (dopey sods I admit) to believe it is OK when clearly it is not.
> 
> Tell you what. I'll accept your point that it is technically possible. Definitely not advisable though.


Probably the same idiots that watch Jackass then end up in hospital. The sort of people that shouldn't be around anyway!

I've been wetsanding for years and many moons ago used to do it outside in the rain, helped clear the panel of residue etc. Most DA's didnt seem to have the speed control that some do now and the elec versions did. I'd happily use both but thats me. I can't remember who asked in the other thread. All I was point out was that its possible. Maybe not the safest way though.

What would happen if water got inside the machine though? Short out, fizzle, blow up? Time to strap it down, turn it on and hose it down just for science?

Just seen your edit! Exactly the point I was trying to make though.


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## Deano (Jul 7, 2006)

rmorgan84 said:


> must have missed that! Couldn't have happened to a nicer bloke:lol:


the american lad? whats he done?


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## dsolds (Feb 13, 2008)

panama said:


> the american lad? whats he done?


Dunno but his username had BANNED underneath it this morning.

ZoranC
Banned

Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 212


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## -ROM- (Feb 23, 2007)

panama said:


> the american lad? whats he done?


I think brazo gave him a warning about being an obnoxious barsteward and he continued, but there may be a particular incident that i don't know about that put the final nail in the coffin!


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## ZoranC (Jun 9, 2007)

Great video. I assume you will then start practicing what you preach and start using electrical tools for wet sanding 100% of the time from now? If yes please let us know if you continue getting same results. If no why not?


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## Affection to Detail (Jul 6, 2006)

ZoranC said:


> Great video. I assume you will then start practicing what you preach and start using electrical tools for wet sanding 100% of the time from now? If yes please let us know if you continue getting same results. If no why not?


Hi, I'm just waiting for someone to release one with a small enough throw :thumb:


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## richardjohn22 (May 27, 2008)

Where's the video gone? I wondered what everyone was on about...


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## thebigsham (Dec 11, 2007)

Id say this is all down to personal choice it has been known to use water and electrical products but it you dont want to risk it then dont! Simple as.


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## parish (Jun 29, 2006)

Hmm,

*This video has been removed by the user.*



dsolds said:


> OK, any electricians on here care to comment?
> From my perspective, most (if not all) modern power tools are double insulated. That is, plastic cases and no earth lead. The mains cable only ever has 2 cores, live and neutral.
> How then is a RCD supposed to protect against electrocution if the current is conducted via water to the hand? No current will flow to earth so how does the RCD know there is leakage (and thus trip out) ???
> I don't see that it would. Which makes this potentially very dangerous.


I guess that it would detect the current leaking to earth through you to the ground. I'm not an electrician/electrical engineer but I would imagine that most times people come into contact with live wires they don't conveniently have one hand on a directly earthed item.



Brazo said:


> Electric and water don't mix - simple.
> 
> However its safe to stick a sword down your throat if you know what your doing!
> 
> But do people know what they are doing? On the whole I would say its an unsafe practive for most people.


With the caveat that 110v electric tools should be safe - unless you have a dodgy ticker or pacemaker - as they have line and neutral oscillating between -55v and +55v 180 degrees out of phase (240v has neutral bonded to earth and line oscillates -240 - +240) so the maximum potential difference line/neutral to earth is only 55v, you would need to touch both line and neutral to get a 110v shock - and that would need to be one with each hand (or two parts on the opposite sides of your body) for the current to flow through your heart which is the real dangerous thing.

Think about it, 110v power tools are used on building sites (240v not allowed) in conditions that are close to being underwater.


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## justin30513 (Dec 12, 2006)

How do the tile cutting guys use their wet saw all day long?

If water and electricity is the big issue here.......

I've used my PC in wet conditions numerous times. Much wetter than any wet sanding situation. Then on a sunny day, my PC slipped and my index finger went inside the housing and nearly cut it off. Go figure!


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## ZoranC (Jun 9, 2007)

Affection to Detail said:


> Hi, I'm just waiting for someone to release one with a small enough throw :thumb:


Mirka air sander is 3/32". Number of electrical sanders, starting with Bosch line, are even less than that, 2.5/32". Metabo line has 2/32". Your wait is over. Please let us know how it turns out.


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## ZoranC (Jun 9, 2007)

justin30513 said:


> How do the tile cutting guys use their wet saw all day long?
> 
> If water and electricity is the big issue here...


Is tile saw designed, tested, and advertised to be used in such manner for such purpose? Yes.

Is PC and other sanders designed, tested, and advertised to be used in such manner for such purpose? No.

Small but crucial difference that makes a difference between life and Darwin award candidate, if not a winner.


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## cj romeo (Jul 12, 2007)

An RCD works on the residual current principal.

Basically, what goes out, must go back in again, so any current escaping above the threshold (usually 30mA), i.e via yourself, or to earth from extraneous earthed parts should result in a trip (it'll still hurt)

The supply transformer out in the street has its centre point of its secondary winding bolted to earth, so its ast the same potential as the neutral and if the ground is wet its likely that a path right back will be found.

An RCD will not 'protect the supply' if you mean that it might trip before the one in the distribution board, this is a false hope as earth leakage devices, unlike overcurrent devices, do not discriminate by rating.

You are not supposed to rely on an RCD for safety though, all electrical equipment must be used in an environment that is appropriate to its ingress rating, i.e if using it in wet conditions it would need ingress protection to at least rating IP44

The video is gone now, so I didnt see it.

Get a belt from a UDM or other 230V appliance - you get 230 volts through you.

However if you use a power tool transformer on a PC for example, you are actually only exposing yourself to a maximum of 55 volts to earth due to the fact the tranny is centre tapped to earth.

Thats why construction sites only allow the use of 110Volts from centre tapped sources, as flexes are easily cut and things can get wet unintentionally.


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## justin30513 (Dec 12, 2006)

ZoranC said:


> Is tile saw designed, tested, and advertised to be used in such manner for such purpose? Yes.
> 
> Is PC and other sanders designed, tested, and advertised to be used in such manner for such purpose? No.
> 
> Small but crucial difference that makes a difference between life and Darwin award candidate, if not a winner.


Knew you would have _*AN*_ answer!


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## parish (Jun 29, 2006)

cj romeo said:


> The supply transformer out in the street has its centre point of its secondary winding bolted to earth, so its ast the same potential as the neutral and if the ground is wet its likely that a path right back will be found.


But surely in that situation the current wouldn't flow back through the RCD so the two poles will be unbalanced causing it to trip?



cj romeo said:


> However if you use a power tool transformer on a PC for example, you are actually only exposing yourself to a maximum of 55 volts to earth due to the fact the tranny is centre tapped to earth.


Would centre-tapping not hold neutral to earth potential so, to get 110v, line would oscillate -110 to +110 so a line to neutral or earth shock would be 110v not 55? - like you say you'll get a 230v shock from the mains because the supply tranny *is* centre-tapped. I thought - as I said in my post above - that the secondary winding of a 230 to 110 tranny is *not* centre-tapped so line and neutral both oscillate -55 to +55 but 180 deg out of phase so the maximum line or neutral to earth pd is only 55v?


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## cj romeo (Jul 12, 2007)

Parish you misunderstand my RCD post - yes, if the current does not match line and neutral within its threshold it trips.

The 3 phase supply transformer secondary winding is star point earthed as is the neutral, but the line voltage is 400 and the star/neutral/earth 230. 

A power tool tranny has the centre point of the secondary winding earthed so your path from earth to live is at a potential differnce of 50% of the line/neutral voltage.

Honest guv'nor, I have letters after my name in boring stuff like this!


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## REFLECTS (Apr 7, 2008)

Wheres the video gone ?


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## petenaud (Feb 17, 2008)

dooby scoo said:


> Wheres the video gone ?


ditto?????


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## parish (Jun 29, 2006)

cj romeo said:


> Honest guv'nor, I have letters after my name in boring stuff like this


First cj, just let me clarify that I am questioning what you wrote *not* because I think you're wrong, but because it doesn't make sense *to me*. It was explained to me a couple of years ago by a leccy and what I posted is how I understand it so if I understand it incorrectly then feel free to correct me - I think it's important to have a sound understanding of things that can kill you!!!



cj romeo said:


> Parish you misunderstand my RCD post - yes, if the current does not match line and neutral within its threshold it trips.


Ah, you meant the current finds it's way back to the supply transformer, not the RCD?



cj romeo said:


> The 3 phase supply transformer secondary winding is star point earthed as is the neutral, but the line voltage is 400 and the star/neutral/earth 230.
> 
> A power tool tranny has the centre point of the secondary winding earthed so your path from earth to live is at a potential difference of 50% of the line/neutral voltage.


This is the bit I don't understand. Centre-tapping means neutral is bonded to earth - so should always be at earth potential (which is *nominally* 0v), yes? So, if that is the case then to get 110v line needs to oscillate -110 to +110 to give a line to neutral pd of 110v? Since neutral is at earth potential then a line to earth shock will be 110v, not 55v? If you can only get a 55v line to earth shock then surely neutral can't be held at earth potential and both line *and* neutral must oscillate -55 to +55 but 180 deg out of phase to give 110v? You'd only get a 110v shock from line to neutral for which you'd have to take the cover off the appliance to touch both or cut the cable but in the latter case the RCD would trip as you'd be shorting all three cores out.


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## cj romeo (Jul 12, 2007)

No offence, I know you are only trying to understand.

On the secondary of a tool transformer neutral is not the same potential as earth, to do that one end of the coil needs to be earthed.

Here the centre of the coil is earthed thus its 55 volts to neutral and 55 volts to live as thats half the winding, but from each end of the coil its 110V.

And you would not trip an RCD on the mains side of a transformer by getting electrocuted from the secondary winding as the earth references are different and youre galvanically isolated.

If you shoted all 3 cores on the secondary it would cause an overload and bring out a fuse or breaker.

Clear as mud eh!


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## parish (Jun 29, 2006)

cj romeo said:


> On the secondary of a tool transformer neutral is not the same potential as earth, to do that one end of the coil needs to be earthed.
> 
> Here the centre of the coil is earthed thus its 55 volts to neutral and 55 volts to live as thats half the winding, but from each end of the coil its 110V.


Ah, yes, of course - I remember now :thumb:



cj romeo said:


> And you would not trip an RCD on the mains side of a transformer by getting electrocuted from the secondary winding as the earth references are different and youre galvanically isolated.


So like a shaver socket in a bathroom - you can't get a shock from the (secondary) line to (real) earth, e.g. a water pipe, because there's no circuit. So 110v tools powered through a transformer are even safer than I thought as the most likely scenario is connecting yourself between the tool's line or neutral and (real) earth so no shock?



cj romeo said:


> Clear as mud eh!


Perfectly clear - I was just forgetting that centre-tapped means half the total pd - I guess it's different in star wound 3-phase transformers where the centre of the star is earthed?

We've got light switches at work with warnings on them that there is 400v between switches which I presume means different switches are fed by different phases?

Thanks for clearing things up - like I said, important to understand things that can kill you.


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## cj romeo (Jul 12, 2007)

You have all the above in hand now!


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## parish (Jun 29, 2006)

cj romeo said:


> You have all the above in hand now!


cheers :thumb:

Since I've now got it, one more question. Why couldn't you just use a 1:1 isolating transformer and use 230v tools? I can only think that it's because it would be too easy to just plug them straight into the wall socket? In theory though, as long as you did use an isolating transformer 230v tools would be just as safe?


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## Affection to Detail (Jul 6, 2006)

The video was removed a few days after the post was made. It was meant as a joke but as usual with the PC and H&S crowd things got out of hand so I removed the video as I couldn't be bothered with the backlash.

It was literally me taking the pee using an elec sander for wetsanding, something I've done for years.

In regard to those sanders, thanks, I'll pick one up if they are available in the UK, will save having to keep finding a compressor.


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## ZoranC (Jun 9, 2007)

justin30513 said:


> Knew you would have _*AN*_ answer!


Just a little bit of a common sense, everybody could benefit from some.


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## ZoranC (Jun 9, 2007)

Affection to Detail said:


> In regard to those sanders, thanks, I'll pick one up if they are available in the UK, will save having to keep finding a compressor.


All of them are available in Europe. Bosch and Metabo are German companies.


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## cj romeo (Jul 12, 2007)

parish said:


> cheers :thumb:
> 
> Since I've now got it, one more question. Why couldn't you just use a 1:1 isolating transformer and use 230v tools? I can only think that it's because it would be too easy to just plug them straight into the wall socket? In theory though, as long as you did use an isolating transformer 230v tools would be just as safe?


Thats what you call an isolated power system (IPS) and its what you find in a hospital operating theatre.

It needs to be used with a fault detection system though, as any equipment not double insulated (or with defects) can become live and you wouldnt know.... until you picked up another and it had a short from the case to the neutral !

Since the peak of earthing things in 1981 withe IEE 15th edition, we have been back pedalling and removing earths as they can in some circumstances introduce more of a hazard than they resolve. Earths are primarily there to ensure that live equipment cause an overcurrent situation large enough to operate a fuse or breaker,, but sometimes the route from the fault to earth is across some poor sods arms and chest and not direct..

Please do not remove any earths or other protective conductors though, it needs professional thought and you will in all likelihood make the situation more dangerous and non compliant.


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## Glossmax (May 9, 2007)

Has no one here ever used an electric lawn mower on wet/damp grass :wall:

I never saw the demo/video, but thanks for demonstration of what can be done to get round the odd problem with the tools to hand when needed. If we all followed the rules 110% and attacked anyone who didn't we'd have...oh...... say a nanny state and we don't want that


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## Affection to Detail (Jul 6, 2006)

ZoranC said:


> All of them are available in Europe. Bosch and Metabo are German companies.


Hi, I meant the specific models though.



Pug_101 said:


> Has no one here ever used an electric lawn mower on wet/damp grass :wall:
> 
> I never saw the demo/video, but thanks for demonstration of what can be done to get round the odd problem with the tools to hand when needed. If we all followed the rules 110% and attacked anyone who didn't we'd have...oh...... say a nanny state and we don't want that


Zoran is from the US, I think this is how it became an issue. This is the least of our worries, the dangerous engineering that goes on in some sheds in the UK, wet sanding with electric is the least of our worries.


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## Glossmax (May 9, 2007)

Affection to Detail said:


> Zoran is from the US, I think this is how it became an issue.


I know :wave:


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## Chris_4536 (Sep 20, 2006)

Affection to Detail said:


> Hi, I meant the specific models though.
> 
> Zoran is from the US, I think this is how it became an issue. This is the least of our worries, the dangerous engineering that goes on in some sheds in the UK, wet sanding with electric is the least of our worries.


:lol::lol::lol:

How true!! :thumb:


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## ZoranC (Jun 9, 2007)

Pug_101 said:


> ... we'd have...oh...... say a nanny state and we don't want that


I agree. Tons of CCTV, speed cameras, and other monitoring, yet no actual crimes resolved or decreased thanks to it, just general public being milked more and more, instead sounds so appealing. However, I see no Americans talking how they want to move to England, and I see many English moving to States. I wonder why is that the case when it contradicts "nanny state" and all that. Could you explain it please?


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## ZoranC (Jun 9, 2007)

Affection to Detail said:


> Hi, I meant the specific models though.


And they are. Exact same models with exact same names. Metabo SXE450 in States is listed as Metabo SXE450 in Europe. Did you check at all?


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## Glossmax (May 9, 2007)

ZoranC said:


> I agree. Tons of CCTV, speed cameras, and other monitoring, yet no actual crimes resolved or decreased thanks to it, just general public being milked more and more, instead sounds so appealing. However, I see no Americans talking how they want to move to England, and I see many English moving to States. I wonder why is that the case when it contradicts "nanny state" and all that. Could you explain it please?


Because I mentioned the word State do you think my post was aimed at you?


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## Affection to Detail (Jul 6, 2006)

ZoranC said:


> I agree. Tons of CCTV, speed cameras, and other monitoring, yet no actual crimes resolved or decreased thanks to it, just general public being milked more and more, instead sounds so appealing. However, I see no Americans talking how they want to move to England, and I see many English moving to States. I wonder why is that the case when it contradicts "nanny state" and all that. Could you explain it please?


I think the issue is more to do with ppl sueing others which the US is notorious for.



ZoranC said:


> And they are. Exact same models with exact same names. Metabo SXE450 in States is listed as Metabo SXE450 in Europe. Did you check at all?


Not yet, when I get some more sanding jobs will take a look into it.


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## owen1183 (Jun 13, 2008)

dsolds said:


> OK, any electricians on here care to comment?
> From my perspective, most (if not all) modern power tools are double insulated. That is, plastic cases and no earth lead. The mains cable only ever has 2 cores, live and neutral.
> How then is a RCD supposed to protect against electrocution if the current is conducted via water to the hand? No current will flow to earth so how does the RCD know there is leakage (and thus trip out) ???
> I don't see that it would. Which makes this potentially very dangerous.


Haven't read the whole thread, so dont know if its been answered, but an RCD looks at the current being drawn by the appliance, as domestic current is AC (no fixed neutral and positve) the current in both cables is balanced. if there becomes an inbalance, i.e. a fault / short circuit more current will be drawn and the RCD will trip within 3 miliseconds, cutting supply. so you will still be protected with a double insulated appliance.


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## ZoranC (Jun 9, 2007)

Affection to Detail said:


> ZoranC said:
> 
> 
> > I agree. Tons of CCTV, speed cameras, and other monitoring, yet no actual crimes resolved or decreased thanks to it, just general public being milked more and more, instead sounds so appealing. However, I see no Americans talking how they want to move to England, and I see many English moving to States. I wonder why is that the case when it contradicts "nanny state" and all that. Could you explain it please?
> ...


And in spite of that notoriety all those English still want to come over. Interesting. They would not be doing it if they were not feeling they will still be better off, would they?


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## Shug (Jul 13, 2007)

There are more people per head of population sueing in the UK than the US


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## ZoranC (Jun 9, 2007)

Shug said:


> There are more people per head of population sueing in the UK than the US


It is funny what one finds when he starts looking at relative instead of absolute numbers, isn't it?


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## Chris_4536 (Sep 20, 2006)

Back to the Detailing ladies


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## maersk (Sep 6, 2007)

Both countries appear to have arseholes at their heads.............allegedly :tumbleweed:


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