# Gliptone VS Lexol vs BMW Cleaner Vs Auto GLYM....



## OCD Detailer

Just wanted to know everyone choice of the leather cleaners/protectors/conditioners above and why. IM trying to decide for my car. Thanks !


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## GlynRS2

Gliptone - I have tried all the others and more that you list and this is by far the best I have come across.


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## judyb

None of them as far as I am aware work as protectors


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## Timmo

gliptone out of th eones listed, but the AG l;eather cream is good!
however after having a play with some very nice Croftgate on the weekend that will more than likely be my next choice!!


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## Stan

tried lots including Gliptone but mt fav. is Zaino Z-10 dont know how but it leaves my leather the softest yet, & its coated leather.
but its expensive, little goes a long way.

wish i could have made the Cornish meet & brought it with me, looked a good day.Any info on Croftgate not heard of this one.


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## OCD Detailer

Does Gliptone leave it with a matee, like new finish, or a little oily? Does anyone dilute their leather cleaner/conditioners or no?


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## Paul-T

I've never diluted Gliptone, and I don't find it leaves leather oily at all. It gives a lovely as new (i.e. not shiny) finish.


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## Timmo

Stan, i will try and find out some more about the croftgate! you had a creme that you applied a little to your hands and rubbed it in then an oil that you applied very sparingly over the top, the result was a nice fresh looking leather, not slippery or shinny, just right! (porsche carrera leather)


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## Multipla Mick

http://www.croftgate.com/ :thumb:


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## Gleammachine

I use Gliptone and love the smell and results,

Heard good things about the Croftgate leather oil but yet to try it.


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## judyb

What do these creams and oils actually do?


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## Gleammachine

judyb said:


> What do these creams and oils actually do?


You've written that Judy when you already know what they do but obviously wouldn't agree.

What would you recommend as the best form of cleaner and protection then?


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## judyb

I am very curious as to what you think they are doing for the leather so am trying to open a discussion. Cleaners and protectors should not contain oils. Detergent foam cleaners are the safest and most effective cleaners and a fluorochemical protector will help guard against oils and dirt which are what help destroy the finish. Oils and/or waxes used as surface finishes on pigmented leather will also mean they are harder to fix if that should be needed as replacement pigment or finish will not adhere to the surface.


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## Gleammachine

I can't fault your knowledge on leather but you avoid the question when asked what alternative products you would recommend.


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## judyb

Because it is taken off every time I do.


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## Gleammachine

So I gather it's your own products then enough said.


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## talisman

Gleammachine said:


> So I gather it's your own products then enough said.


what i have done is read between the lines as far as products go, there are other products apart from judyb range, taken me nearly a year to obsorb all the information you need for leather care for newish cars, the products required arefar less than you think!!!!:thumb:


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## judyb

I am just tryring to give good advice and help you avoid the pitfalls that we see all the time. 
Our products are selected from the best that are available from around the world and are thoroughly tested before we add them to our range, this is so that we can supply technicians with the very best products to do repairs caused by the incorrect use of other products!!!

Talisman - the simple way is to keep it clean from the beginning by using maintenance products on a regular basis, these do not take long and done little and often will keep your leather in good condition for a long time. I know of one supplier who advocates the use of 38 different products to keep your leather looking good!!!


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## Paul-T

I think people wouldn't be quite so sceptical if you actually participated in the forum in areas other than just disagreeing with everyone's choice of leather products that they are happy using.

Whilst you are obviously very well clued up on your subject matter, if you can't see that it comes across as just product bashing everything on the market apart from your own, then I think you need to look again.


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## judyb

We are leather specialists and I would not presume to answer on any other subject. 
Most of the products mentioned on here we have tested in one form or another and many of them simply create more problems. By understanding the make up of leather and the way they are finished we hope to demonstrate what products can and cannot do. There are other products that do the same sort of thing as ours (some that have been in our range in the past) and these I have spoken about. 

If you have any specific leather problems then fire away, we advise on leather and its problems all the time.


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## TOGWT

talisman said:


> what i have done is read between the lines as far as products go, there are other products apart from judyb range, taken me nearly a year to obsorb all the information you need for leather care for newish cars, the products required arefar less than you think!!!!:thumb:


All LM products are water-based and the company has been trading for ten plus years (UK, USA, Sweden, etc)
Cleaning - A 6:1 solution of Woolite / distilled water 
Alternative- Leather Master™ Soft Cleaner
Heavy stains- LM Strong Effect Cleaner

Soften (not a conditioner) - LM Aged Leather Revitalizer

Protection - Leather Master™ Protection
UV protection - 303™ Aerospace Protectant

Leather Care / Cleaning / Maintenance- These articles are written to help detailer's make informed decisions when selecting leather care products for automobiles.

I am neither a vendor, nor a salesperson pretending to be an educator, I'm a detailer / author, and therefore there is no reason for me to hype products; just to provide factual information -http://www.detailuniversity.com/


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## Andy M

The best cleaner ive found is Gliptone cleaner, not the conditioner, used with a soft brush to agitate.
***** is also good, as long as it isnt the one in halfords that smells nice, it is rebranded turtle wax stuff and leaves an oily finish. The proper twin ***** pack has another cleaner in a darker bottle. That is a good cleaner.

Gliptone is the best though i think.


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## roby

Has anyone tried Chemical Guys Leather Cleaner & Conditioner?
I was gonna buy that one before I read this thread!


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## talisman

roby said:


> Has anyone tried Chemical Guys Leather Cleaner & Conditioner?
> I was gonna buy that one before I read this thread!


i have it on the shelf, not to impressed really, but that was before i really researched the subject,do a search on leather care from this site will take you a good few hours of reading to get a insight, but well worth it and will save you some money to spend on more wax!!!..lol..


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## judyb

TOGWT said:


> nor a salesperson pretending to be an educator,


Could you explain this please.


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## Multipla Mick

TOGWT said:


> I am neither a vendor, *nor a salesperson pretending to be an educator*, I'm a detailer / author, and therefore there is no reason for me to hype products; just to *provide factual information *-http://www.detailuniversity.com/


If the 'salesperson pretending to be an educator' is aimed at Judy B, then you really need to check your 'factual information' before posting.


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## PhillipM

Well, whether gliptones conditioner theoretically works or not, what I do know is it leaves my leather feeling much softer and more supple and it doesn't seem to get dirty as fast either....


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## Refined Reflections

TOGWT said:


> I am neither a vendor, nor a salesperson pretending to be an educator, I'm a detailer / author, and therefore there is no reason for me to hype products; just to provide factual information -http://www.detailuniversity.com/


Or rather you are just good at collecting information from others and then posting it to look as though you have written it, someone else plagiarised yet again. I would love to actually see you write something yourself, but I doubt that'll ever happen.


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## richjohnhughes

i can see this getting nasty. 

i wouldnt mind knowing a product that will work - from a brand that i can trust.


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## dominic84

I say; use what you're happy using - at the end of the day any major company is not going to make a product that will damage your leather that would just be rediuclous.

Also lets face it, leather is just painted cow skin - it's not fine silk and is made to be hard wearing. 

As others have said it's clear that judyb has an agenda, and that is too scare mounger everyone into binning their 'dangerous' products to make way for her own.

I personally think it's a shocking example of backdoor advertising that has been going on for too long.


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## judyb

I have absolutely no agenda other than giving correct, researched information and trying to help. Leather is not painted cow skin it is a very sophisticated product which, depending on the quality of the finish will be hard wearing or not. It does however have to be looked after to ensure that the finish does not break down. It is not the products themselves that generally damage the leather but the long term effects of using them. There are some manufacturers who produce products that will damage the finish as we see all the time and these are generally people who have little or no knowledge of leather and just add something to thier range, some of these products are very well known household names that people would generally trust, but they do do damge.


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## Refined Reflections

OK, not going to kick off Judy, although I don't agree with your tactics and way of telling us that your products are the best and should only be used, but as its your business I also accept that this is how many operate, so lets agree to disagree on this.

Now I have a very valid and honest question, do you in your technical capacity think Gliptone (yes I do think this is the dogs proverbial) does harm leather (both their cleaners and conditioners)? 

I know you would rather sell your products, but its not going to happen from me, but I want to know if you can also be open and honest about other products rather than just making blanket statements without naming names.


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## Andy M

tbh i think most of the leather cleaners (autoglym, gliptone, zym0l, lexol) etc are fine, as long as they are just a cleaner, and water based.


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## richjohnhughes

Refined Reflections said:


> OK, not going to kick off Judy, although I don't agree with your tactics and way of telling us that your products are the best and should only be used, but as its your business I also accept that this is how many operate, so lets agree to disagree on this.
> 
> Now I have a very valid and honest question, do you in your technical capacity think Gliptone (yes I do think this is the dogs proverbial) does harm leather (both their cleaners and conditioners)?
> 
> I know you would rather sell your products, but its not going to happen from me, but I want to know if you can also be open and honest about other products rather than just making blanket statements without naming names.


good work!!...would like the answer to this also.


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## TOGWT

Originally Posted by TOGWT 
I am neither a vendor, nor a salesperson pretending to be an educator, I'm a detailer / author, and therefore there is no reason for me to hype products; just to provide factual information -http://www.detailuniversity.com/

The statement was about me, so there is no need to become defensive

My rule number one is; "Never try to belittle someone who has a differing opinion and never, ever, make personal attacks.”


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## Phil1971

The seats in my Rover Mini Cooper are black with silver facings. Both materials are leather according to the Rover spec. The steering wheel also has a black/silver leather combo. Not seen any silver cows, so assume it is painted or dyed somehow ??  

Whatever technique was used by Rover on this leather, the Gliptone Cleaner was very effective in removing the silver colour the first time I attempted to clean them with this highly recommended product!! :doublesho 

I've stop using the cleaner and just use a warm damp rag. I still use the Gliptone Conditioner to treat them as it smells great and I've been very pleased with the results. :thumb:


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## talisman

Phil1971 said:


> The seats in my Rover Mini Cooper are black with silver facings. Both materials are leather according to the Rover spec. The steering wheel also has a black/silver leather combo. Not seen any silver cows, so assume it is painted or dyed somehow ??
> 
> Whatever technique was used by Rover on this leather, the Gliptone Cleaner was very effective in removing the silver colour the first time I attempted to clean them with this highly recommended product!! :doublesho
> 
> I've stop using the cleaner and just use a warm damp rag. I still use the Gliptone Conditioner to treat them as it smells great and I've been very pleased with the results. :thumb:


This is what i have been saying "less is more" the warm damp microfibre is the way i,m doing things now, and trying not to get the leather dirty in the first place!!, if needed a little help with water based ph neutral foam cleaner and a soft brush to lift more stubborn dirt, try to keep the seams free of dirt and grit as this will wear through the protective coating on the leather, just trying to find a no nonsense protector to put on the leather now, to keep the leather as factory finish....just my view as said before

CLEAN....well worth it 
CONDITIONER.....waste of time and money
PROTECTOR......yes but still searching for the right one


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## graeme

Reading this thread does leave the impression that some people are trying to offer information for personal gain or plugging and for me thats not what this thread or site is about.

*My tuppence worth *- i am not a proffessional detailer or seller, i sadly dont get a chance to contribute as much to the site as i would like, i am simply a novice looking to do the best i can to look after my car. If i am looking for advice i look at threads on here and at the products sold by traders on here some of whome are enthuesiastic and passionate detailers themselves and would not be selling products that are no good.

When i asked a question in a previous thread for a product to clean my steering wheel (as its the only part of my interior thats leather) someone said to try poorboys natural look dressing. I now do that once a month after using a megs detail brush on it and the wheel comes up well.

Good advice for what i needed as i didnt want to shell out on a dedicated product for just a steering wheel.


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## Gleammachine

Refined Reflections said:


> OK, not going to kick off Judy, although I don't agree with your tactics and way of telling us that your products are the best and should only be used, but as its your business I also accept that this is how many operate, so lets agree to disagree on this.
> 
> Now I have a very valid and honest question, do you in your technical capacity think Gliptone (yes I do think this is the dogs proverbial) does harm leather (both their cleaners and conditioners)?
> 
> I know you would rather sell your products, but its not going to happen from me, but I want to know if you can also be open and honest about other products rather than just making blanket statements without naming names.


This is what I had been trying to get information about from the start but all the posts I read just go round in circles without actually getting to the point other than that all other leather products seem to be harmful long term.

If Gliptone is damaging to the leather than I would like to know for definate and a factual report would be nice so I can contact them with the findings.


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## wilbz11

Gleammachine said:


> This is what I had been trying to get information about from the start but all the posts I read just go round in circles without actually getting to the point other than that all other leather products seem to be harmful long term.
> 
> If Gliptone is damaging to the leather than I would like to know for definate and a factual report would be nice so I can contact them with the findings.


totally agree i have used the Gliptone cleaner and conditioner every 6 months for 2 years now without any problems, top products from my and others experience's. .


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## Brazo

To be honest I think zymul leather treat is the dogs but that is my opinion and I won't force it on anyone  

Judyb your posts are wearing a little thin, whilst you do seem to come across as knowledgable in this area and could be an asset to DW your continual 'promotion' of one product at the expense of others is at best advertising


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## R30

Prima leather care gets my thumbs up!


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## Refined Reflections

Phil1971 said:


> The seats in my Rover Mini Cooper are black with silver facings. Both materials are leather according to the Rover spec. The steering wheel also has a black/silver leather combo. Not seen any silver cows, so assume it is painted or dyed somehow ??
> 
> Whatever technique was used by Rover on this leather, the Gliptone Cleaner was very effective in removing the silver colour the first time I attempted to clean them with this highly recommended product!! :doublesho
> 
> I've stop using the cleaner and just use a warm damp rag. I still use the Gliptone Conditioner to treat them as it smells great and I've been very pleased with the results. :thumb:


Unfortunately Phil, the silver on the old Mini steering wheels was paint, if it had been a dye then it wouldn't have been taken off. However as with any cleaning product (and I'm sure it does say it on the bottle) test in an unseen area first to ensure its safe with the finish (doesn't put the silver back on though and I'm yet to find a hidden area on a wheel to test first  )

I see Judyb is now conspicuous by her absence, I hope she will at least do us the honour of answering my question, otherwise I will have to take her lack of answering as she doesn't want to tell the truth that Gliptone is NOT harmful as implied.


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## judyb

Been training for the past couple of days so have not had time to respond.

I have never stated that a particular product is harmful but only that products that contain oils and waxes and are left on the surface will attract more dirt which eventually breaks down the finish, THE DIRT does the damage NOT the PRODUCT. 

We have tested Gliptone amongst many of the other products and they do not fit into the remit of what we believe, through our extensive research, that products should do otherwise we would include them in our range as we have done with others.

If you do not want to take our word for it please read the following quote from a supplier of tanning products:

"......One perfect example of this is leather used in the automotive industry. In the past when car’s were left closed on long hot summer days plasticizers from nitro cellulose films would migrate into the leather. After time the leather finish would dry out and surface cracks would start to appear. As modern leathers use a completely different finishing system this migration and drying out is not such a problem, consequently they do not need to be treated with aftercare products containing oils. In our opinion the majority of renovation creams marketed today will remain on the leather surface attracting dirt and dust......." (NLC)

This was also verified for us many times at the conference of the Society of Leather Technologists and Chemists that we attended recently.

We are only too pleased to help with technical problems in our professional capacity as consultants and instructors to the industry


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## PhillipM

Then how come my leather is softer after using gliptone 'conditioner' ?


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## Refined Reflections

Many thanks for the answer Judy :thumb:, as I've said before I'm not looking to cause issues etc just I am very sceptical of sales pitches, I look into what is said/written and if something doesn't sit quite right with me I'll question it till either I'm convinced or find out its just sales talk, nothing personal honest.

Gliptone and others don't fit your remit, so they do work just not in a way you feel they should, that's fair enough. I feel the same about the Mini verses a Ferrari, a mini will fit in my garage, but even in Rosso Red its still doesn't go like a Ferrari 



> In our opinion the majority of renovation creams marketed today will remain on the leather surface attracting dirt and dust


Gliptone, Zym0l, Swissvax and some others that have been mentioned in the past all do soak into the leather, they are water based, leather is porous thats why if once applied and left it soaks in, maybe cheaper end ones are oil based but even those will soak in, otherwise why if I pour olive oil/engine oil etc onto leather does it stain? because it soaks in, if it sat on the surface it would wipe away without any marks.

Finally, why not just name names, if there are products out there that we are all using that are doing harm, proven not to work etc, please tell us in no uncertain terms which ones they are. Blanket statements like ...


> There are some manufacturers who produce products that will damage the finish as we see all the time and these are generally people who have little or no knowledge of leather and just add something to thier range, some of these products are very well known household names that people would generally trust, but they do do damge


So which products? Name names so we can avoid them please


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## dominic84

> I have absolutely no agenda other than giving correct, researched information and trying to help. Leather is not painted cow skin it is a very sophisticated product which, depending on the quality of the finish will be hard wearing or not. It does however have to be looked after to ensure that the finish does not break down. It is not the products themselves that generally damage the leather but the long term effects of using them. There are some manufacturers who produce products that will damage the finish as we see all the time and these are generally people who have little or no knowledge of leather and just add something to thier range, some of these products are very well known household names that people would generally trust, but they do do damge.


If it's not painted where do all the coloured cows come from? I was watching the Discovery Channel the other day and they actually featured the making of leather on 'How It's Made'. I have since been kicking myself for not writing down all the steps in the process, however it went something like this:

1. Shave fur off cow skins
2. Finely slice cow skins
3. Apply some chemical solution to keep it soft
4. Dry out on a big sheet of glass
5. Spray on some paint

Which isn't all that sophisticated is it? No more advanced than the production of say plastic... and it's certainly not much of a 'science'.

I would also like to know why you think automotive leather is not relatively hard wearing? It has to be or it just wouldn't be used in a cars construction.

Your advice is good in that you shouldn't use a product that will attract dirt, but this would also be true for carpets etc. I have yet to find a big name automotive leather product that dries sticky? Perhaps you can tell us the ones that do?

As for not having an agenda perhaps that wasn't the right word but you do plug your own products a lot. It's also wrong in my opinion that most people know your web address and what you sell all without going through the proper channels.

You have clearly joined to take advantage of the 10000+ potential customers on this site. Maybe you should either pay to advertise or alternatively express an interest in cleaning your car and not just saying how good your products are all the time?


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## judyb

I am not sure which programme you were watching but the tanning industry is an extremely sophisticated and highly scientific proceedure certainly not as simple as you would have us believe, I can give the full process if you are interested.

I did not say that it was not hard wearing, leather is one of the most hard wearing 'fabrics' there is and it depends on the finish that is applied and how it is looked after which will dictate how long it lasts. Auto leather is usually more heavily finished than upholstery leather because of the wear it gets but it still needs looking after.

Products do not necessarily have to dry sticky to be a problem. Water is the only 'conditioner' that leather needs and products that contain water will do your leather good, those that also contain oils which cannot soak into the leather through the finish (or take a long time to do this) will attract more dirt by staying on the surface and it is this that causes the problems.

I am not aware that I have ever mentioned a specific product of ours but only indicated the type of products that would beneficial. Everyone can do their own tests to make sure they are acting as a protector or you can send them off to be tested.

I leave having my car cleaned to professionals but they do not take care of the leather as obviously we do that ourselves. 
As the use of leather in cars has now exploded as it did in the furniture industry and it will not be long before the problems we have in furniture will start to appear in cars (ie. use of different leather finishes and 2 tone effects etc) I thought you might find professional leather car advice useful - obviously I was wrong.


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## Refined Reflections

No we would appreciate a professionals input however someone who slates products under a blanket statement without naming names and then saying Oh we do products that do work is just plain stupid, we are not so dumb as to not see this as advertising, and slamming of others. 

As I have now asked several times please tell us the names of ALL those products that are in your eyes doing more harm than good, prove to us that you are willing to spill the dirt, being open and honest, then maybe more of us will be more receptive to you, not much to ask is it?


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## judyb

It is very unprofessional to slate other peoples products and as professionals we simply do not do that. 

All we are doing is telling you how our products work so that you can evaluate the ones you are using. It is really down to you to do your own comparitive testing because if we published our results you would just say we were trying to sell our product. Catch22.
Why are no other product producers contributing to this discussion?

No professional product testing body will do a comparitive testing for you, they will simply test individual products. We do them to ensure that our products are as effective or more effective than other products on the market so that our technicians always have the best products to work with. If we find better than ours we will reformulate.

You are always more than welcome on one of our Free courses to find out all the info.


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## Refined Reflections

Sorry I think this has gone on long enough, you say other products are harmful to leather but no matter what are not willing to name names, however you are willing to try and con us that only yours is safe, this is nothing more than a cheap sales trick, no more no less.

Given this personally I think this sort of advertising is not warranted on this site (my personal views). As for other manufacturers not getting involved, well they do know about this thread, and I'd guess they are sitting waiting to see how deep a hole is dug.


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## Guest

Well I find autoglym good. Spray on the leather cleaner to the seats, spread it round evenly with a sponge, and with a bit of elbow grease wipe it off, using a foam applicator apply autoglyms leather conditioner, very thinly and evenly. Leave it for 5 mins and wipe it off with a microfiber. Only do this once every 3 months etc but in between just wipe it down with warm water.


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## Refined Reflections

I know that this thread has dropped down a little however on another forum, which a leather care thread was started, I asked the following question to Judy B....



> You keep making blanket statements about auto leather care products being bad, telling us only to use water based products, so far all the research I have done points to the likes of Gliptone, Swissvax, ***** and Race Glaze (not tried Ben's products so can't comment on these, nor yours but since you go to great lengths to tell us how good they are and how they are right I see no point in testing them) are all water based so going by your own words these must actually be good for leather, however I very much doubt you will say this is true as then you won't be making so many sales. If however these products are bad then have the balls to stand up and say so, prove that these are bad rather than say do my own tests, as what the hell do you think I have done, just gone to a supplier and said oh that must work so I'll use it? I have a very good reputation and will not risk it through following the crowd after the next best sales pitch. However if I'm wrong then I also am man enough to stand up and say so, I have been wrong in the past and admitted so.


After some posts and me snapping at her heals she posted the following....



> OK so we have established that conditioners with oils and waxes that leave residues on the surface can lead to damaged finish. If conditioners don't contain oils and waxes and are water based as you are suggesting then what are they doing.......nothing except adding moisture so you have all been hoodwinked into buying products that don't do anything except add water which you could do with a damp cloth. Thats why a protector is better than a conditioner because it does actually do something to help as well as adding moisture.


From her reply I can only assume that she has never tested any of the cleaners or conditioners that I have mentioned, otherwise she would know the make up of these, I've never asked if they work only if these harm leather in the way that her blanket statement of doing harm indicated.

Therefore I again can only assume that her comments on products harming leather is nothing more than a sales ploy to try and scare us all away from what we use and try to get us to buy those which she sells, sorry but this type of sales tactics is the lowest of lows.

As far as I'm concerned this is case closed for me, no matter how good Judy maybe technically her scare tactics/sales ploy has tainted her, her company and products forever.


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## Andy M

What forums was this on chap?


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## Refined Reflections

http://www.britishvaleters.org

Need to register as a closed forum, some good info for the trade, but not as good as here for sure


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## judyb

Have tested the products and know the results and nothing in any of my posts suggests otherwise. You simply want to argue for the sake of it and I'm not surprised it has been closed on the other forum. It is also closed as far as I am concerned as you simply do not understand what we are trying to say.


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## Spirit Detailing

Hi R.R.

apologies, I don't know your first name.

A lot of what Judy says is true. Long before Judy came onto to the forum I said that you shouldn't need to use any conditioner on leather in its first few years of life and a strong possibility that you will never need to use a "conditioning" product. 

There are a few reasons for this and the most important thing being that the oils can eventually break down the finish of the leather.... its basic chemistry. Secondly, there are three maintenance factors with leather:
Moisture
Fat-Liquor
pH

Fat-liquor and pH factors should not concern a detailer as such. And moisture content really shouldn't either. Leather is extremely dynamic and by its very nature it will gain and lose moisture regularly. If you abstain from using a conditioner, you will not upset the levels of the above three factors and everything is good. I would only be concerned in areas of extreme heat or extreme humidity (or extreme dirt!!) and only then would I check what the specific symptoms are before I decide on a course of action.

If you find that a customer presents you with leather that has gone hard, is crumbling, cracking, or tearing then there is nothing you will be able to do as a detailer, with an off the shelf conditioner. It has suffered specific damage and the best thing to do is to refer to a specialist to fix it. Otherwise you are leaving detailing and entering the world of the leather restorer, which is not easy!! 

Here is all you need to know about leather..... vacuum and clean it with a mild butyl-free cleaner, but don't over-wet the leather. Then wipe it down with a cloth dampened with warm clean water to remove the residual detergent as this will just attract dirt again. I trust you all know that a soft nail brush is great for cleaning in the grain, but use it lightly!

After that, you have two choices. Either educate the customer that the leather doesn't need conditioning and he will have to suffice with the fresh clean smell of the interior.... Or else you can buy a leather aroma solution and apply it to the seats. I'm not sure where you can get one of these in the UK but google is your friend!

Unfortunately, customers love and expect a fresh leather smell and it is one reason why you will get repeat customers..... At the end of the day, the decision is yours because you earn a living doing this and I am not going to tell you to stop using a conditioner if it means you are losing money. You are adults and I can only give you pointers... the rest is up to you.

Personally, I have spent a lot of time and money looking for products that I would recommend, but because there are so many critical variables with leather, I am not recommending any specific one that will be good for everyone!

Hey, and while I have your attention... I also warned people of the dangers of using solvent-based dressings on tyres, rubber, vinyl & plastics! Water-based is the safe way to go.. .but that's another discussion! LOL!

Hope I have helped the discussion somewhat.

Later,
S.


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## Refined Reflections

Hi Sweepy :thumb:

The names Gary, I actually don't dispute JudyB's knowledge, what my issue is/was is that she has come on here and posted many times how products are bad for leather, when asked which ones she just replies with blanket statements like well known household products, and in the early days of her being on here was promoting her products, at least till the mods/admin put a stop to this.

I and others have mentioned that we like and use stuff like Gliptone, Swissvax, Zym0l and others. Judy just keeps telling us about how leather is harmed/ruined but won't tell us if these products are included, hell I would change in the blink of an eye if I was given proof, but she just avoids answering and telling me/us if these are harmful, talking about containing oil, waxes, silicones and that anything used should and must be water based, which the above are.

Finally on the BV site she says the above, in which she says


> ...If conditioners don't contain oils and waxes and are water based as you are suggesting then what are they doing.......nothing except adding moisture...


 if as she is now trying to say has tested then why say that, it reads that she has not tested these otherwise she would know the composition of them.

Also maybe this is an odd question, but if these conditioners are causing damage what is the normal time frame for damage to be done, I know of cars that have had Gliptone conditioner and the like applied 6 times a year over at least 10 years and the leather still looks and feels like the day the car rolled off the production line.

Cheers for your unbiased input, much welcomed and appreciated :thumb:


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## graeme

'nothing but adding moisture' 

My limited knowledge of leather in cars is that if you leave it long enough without any care it can dry out and crack. So then of course using oils or water based products will moisturise and stop the leather drying out.  

is that not the point?

As i said in a previous post, i dont have a leather interior for now (retrim on the cards maybe ) but as a novice trying to learn the ropes and i wish judy would just simply put up or shut up. either pass on 'your knowledge' tell everyone what the bad products are and no doubt what the only good one is or stop plugging and dropping cryptic clues about products many people are using to maintain their pride and joy and that of their customers. 

Its getting boring now and if you really wanted to help members as you keep saying you do you would just list the bad stuff. You would get more respect and maybe stop people from thinking your just touting for business


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## ToLearn

To be fair to judy she has offerd you to attend a course for free perhaps then behind closed doors alot more could be said that other companys could not call slander 


i do see where people are comeing from with the way she is puting things across but the course is there to go on im sure a few of the profesional detailers could learn something new ??? :thumb: 

hell even i would go on it not that i have a leather interior but you never know one day lol


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## Spirit Detailing

Hi Gary.... Nice to make your acquaintance! :thumb: 

Its really tough to comment categorically on a particular brand, and when I did it in the past, I realised that it was both compromising and wrong of me. 
In future, I would only comment on what I do use! 

But let me give you an example of what happens with leather conditioners. I know one chemical company who make leather conditioners which are marketed under the badges of several "high-end" car companies. The stuff is pretty useless though. It is mainly scent and dressing, with a really tiny amount of lanolin and other "active ingredients" in it, all in a water-based emulsion. 

To add insult to injury, the marketers charge a lot of money for it because it has the brand name on it.... you know what I mean? Its all about perceived value... you got the brand (German / Italian / American), you got the leather smell, the improved appearance and maybe added moisture for temporary softness, whether the leather needed it or not. What's it really doing for the leather?... very, very little of beneficial effect! However, it could be altering the leathers optimum levels of moisture, fat-liquor and pH. 

I don't see any harm in Judy's products at all.... a protective sealant over leather? Why not... it's akin to wax on paint. I use a sealant myself, but from a different technological system. Whether her company has tested those other individual products on the market or not, does not really matter. She can gain the info she needs from a MSDS sheet and draw conclusions from the ingredients because a lot of it is just basic chemistry. Oils will break down the water-based urethane top-coat... sooner or later. Its true, I have also seen old leather that is in great shape despite being "conditioned". But I also have seen many, many newer cars with really bad leather in them. Why do some last better than others? I don't really know.... there are too many critical variables. But I think a major factor is the same reason that exterior paint gets damaged. Incorrect care and cleaning techniques. 

Ah, well. Who told you it was going to be easy!!!


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## talisman

Sweepy said:


> Hi Gary.... Nice to make your acquaintance! :thumb:
> 
> Its really tough to comment categorically on a particular brand, and when I did it in the past, I realised that it was both compromising and wrong of me.
> In future, I would only comment on what I do use!
> 
> But let me give you an example of what happens with leather conditioners. I know one chemical company who make leather conditioners which are marketed under the badges of several "high-end" car companies. The stuff is pretty useless though. It is mainly scent and dressing, with a really tiny amount of lanolin and other "active ingredients" in it, all in a water-based emulsion.
> 
> To add insult to injury, the marketers charge a lot of money for it because it has the brand name on it.... you know what I mean? Its all about perceived value... you got the brand (German / Italian / American), you got the leather smell, the improved appearance and maybe added moisture for temporary softness, whether the leather needed it or not. What's it really doing for the leather?... very, very little of beneficial effect! However, it could be altering the leathers optimum levels of moisture, fat-liquor and pH.
> 
> I don't see any harm in Judy's products at all.... a protective sealant over leather? Why not... it's akin to wax on paint. I use a sealant myself, but from a different technological system. Whether her company has tested those other individual products on the market or not, does not really matter. She can gain the info she needs from a MSDS sheet and draw conclusions from the ingredients because a lot of it is just basic chemistry. Oils will break down the water-based urethane top-coat... sooner or later. Its true, I have also seen old leather that is in great shape despite being "conditioned". But I also have seen many, many newer cars with really bad leather in them. Why do some last better than others? I don't really know.... there are too many critical variables. But I think a major factor is the same reason that exterior paint gets damaged. Incorrect care and cleaning techniques.
> 
> Ah, well. Who told you it was going to be easy!!!


Really glad sweepy has made a show on this thread, it was his words that got me thinking carefully about leather care in the first place, as i said a while back i have made my own conclusions now, and all the information is easy to obtain....so guys less is more!!!...:thumb:


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## Janitor

Right then, so is Gliptone actually any good..?


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## Spirit Detailing

graeme said:


> 'nothing but adding moisture'
> 
> My limited knowledge of leather in cars is that if you leave it long enough without any care it can dry out and crack. So then of course using oils or water based products will moisturise and stop the leather drying out.
> 
> is that not the point?
> 
> As i said in a previous post, i dont have a leather interior for now (retrim on the cards maybe ) but as a novice trying to learn the ropes and i wish judy would just simply put up or shut up. either pass on 'your knowledge' tell everyone what the bad products are and no doubt what the only good one is or stop plugging and dropping cryptic clues about products many people are using to maintain their pride and joy and that of their customers.
> 
> Its getting boring now and if you really wanted to help members as you keep saying you do you would just list the bad stuff. You would get more respect and maybe stop people from thinking your just touting for business


... responding to Graeme....

Hi Mate,

Leather drying out and cracking.... the obvious thing that you would think is that it has dried out but its actually more likely to be acid rot. In that situation, you need to tackle the acidity with a different solution.... if the leather can be restored at all by that stage!

I wouldn't blame Judy for not naming companies. Regardless of the result, it will put somebody's nose out of joint somewhere just to please somebody else, so not really worth it at the end of the day. I've been there, done that and lived to regret it!!


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## judyb

Hi Sweepy

Thanks for coming in on this one. I will be getting back to you soon regarding the finish question - just want to check a few things out first. Do you by any chance have a cutting from the leather you are talking about so that I can examine it under the microscope and see what is going on??

Cheers
Judy


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## Gleammachine

This topic seems to me to have gone full circle and I'm even more confused now,
The majority that use this forum are willing to share advice and information and I still can't understand why the products that are damaging to leather cannnot be revealed.

If we all took the same outlook then DW would probably cease to function.

Imagine a member coming on and making a post about using a wheel cleaning product that others knowingly does long term and costly damage and nobody saying anything or recommending an alternative safe brand it would be pointless for the dw community.

I understand as a leather specialist and trader that it doesn't look very professional to put down other leather treating brands but this whole topic seems absolutely pointless without sharing the information.

I'm sure that there must be some way of passing the information of which brands are harmful on to the DW pro's and then they could pass the info on in there own way to others.

I have used Gliptone on numerous cars and if I thought for one minute it was causing harm to my customers leather then I would cease to use it immediately.

Just my thoughts on the subject and sorry to have rambled on.


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## Spirit Detailing

judyb said:


> Hi Sweepy
> 
> Thanks for coming in on this one. I will be getting back to you soon regarding the finish question - just want to check a few things out first. Do you by any chance have a cutting from the leather you are talking about so that I can examine it under the microscope and see what is going on??
> 
> Cheers
> Judy


Hi Judy,
Which do you mean... My own leather? If so I will see if there is any spare underneath for sure.

Thanks,
S.


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## judyb

Thanks sweepy will be interested to looka t it, still checking our notes from the meeting with Bentley and will let you know what it was they said.

Have just been in Dublin so will make contact next time we are over.

Regards
Judy


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## Spirit Detailing

Guys

A smart man once told me that confusion is good - its a sign that your brain is trying to work out the answer. 

Anyway, I detail cars most weekends and any leather that comes in, I will only clean. I don't want to use ANY conditioners in detailing. If I feel the leather is in poor condition, I will use restorative processes on it after agreeing a course of action with my customer and I will charge extra for it. But it rarely happens, to be honest.

All I am suggesting you to do is think about this. Why do you feel the need to condition your leather? What exactly are the signs that your leather needs something more than to be just cleaned? 

Maybe I should try a poll on that...:speechles 

Later guys,
S.

Added... How do I do a poll? I thought I saw them on DW before, but can't see it now...!


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## Frankenstein

*Confusion*

I have a leather interior in my car it is a light colour, car 5 months old and my seat looks grubby.
I want to clean the leather, so will use some cleaner working in with a soft nail brush, then wipe with a microfibre, then buff.
Now the confusion, does leather dry out naturally aided by the heat in the car, problem is have heated seats which I use, plus due to a bad back adjust the pressure of the lowar seat and lumbar region.
Will the heat from the heating elements adversely affect the drying out of the leather, and will the different positions cause it to crack.
If this beinf the case will I need to treat the leather?


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## Grizzle

Blast form the past but have a look here!.

http://www.bowleather.co.uk/STI/BridgeOfWeir/ManufacturingMain.asp

This will give you all the info you need speking to Bridge of weir leather you deffo dont need a conditioner more a protector


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## judyb

The products they supply are Uniters products and they are all water based cleaners and are protectors rather than conditioners so very good products


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## pstevo

Got some lexol on the way from the states..will let you all know results of use..


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## Estuardo_VW

gliptone never tried BMW


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