# Reducing our use of plastic bottles, containers and packaging ?



## ganwilliams (Jun 15, 2015)

Hi all

Not really sure if this is the right place in the forum but here goes (mods - please move to more appropriate place if necessary!) and if anyone thinks we should do a survey on this please let me know how I do the voting thing!

Just wondering what everyone's (detailing brands and end users alike) thoughts are on plastic. Looking at my assortment of products virtually all come in plastic container/packaging and usually go in the [recycling] bin when empty - only to buy another product in a new plastic container.

Hot topic I know (eg Blue Planet 2 etc) but want to know what everyone's appetite is to minimise the amount of (plastic) waste we produce through detailing?

For example 
1. could/should brands Provide a way of refilling empty plastic containers with their products?

2. What are good alternatives to plastic containers/packaging?

3. Introduce a deposit scheme for returning plastic containers like old glass bottles when you returned them?

Etc etc etc

I know many of us are petrol heads which obviously isn't necessarily the best thing for the environment but it wouldn't it be good for us as a detailing community to do our bit for future generations?

Just interested in everyone's thoughts really!

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## ganwilliams (Jun 15, 2015)

Thought of another thing...
4. Would you be willing to pay a bit extra for eco friendly containers? How much? 


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## wish wash (Aug 25, 2011)

The only thing I've bought which didn't come in a plastic bottle was car pro iron x, but it was still in a plastic packaging as it was classed as a refill.

I guess things will have to start getting shipped in metal containers. Dilute it to suite in your own spray bottles.


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## The_Bouncer (Nov 24, 2010)

More than happy to look at a recycling scheme were we can refill the bottle at a cheaper price.

A rough and tumble on the numbers.

What you will have though is a product that sells for an initial lets say £12.99

If sent back then that is two lots of postage ( Royal Mail cheapest 2nd class post for this would be £2.82 one way(empty) - and £3.82 full ) - so £6.64 just for the option of returning and resending. - The product can be filled at a reduced cost, lets say £8.00 for arguments sake.

So to buy a new one is £12.99 and to recycle and refill an existing bottle is £14.64

Not many customers will take the recycle option, yes there may be a few but not many - not to mention the extra carbon footprint of the recycled bottle travelling in a RM van, network, packaging etc.

Correct disposal into recycling plants of all your plastics is the way forward.


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## F16 (Jan 21, 2018)

I would be happy with a reusable bottle that you can have refilled at a discount.
However if we are reusing bottles I would prefer them to be glass.


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## pxr5 (Feb 13, 2012)

Hmm. Slightly OT, but I'm a hoarder and I don't throw away empty bottels. Ultimately I always find another use for them, either the bottle or the spray head. I'll only bin them when I consider them to have absolutely no use whatsoever - but I am a diligent recycler, and always separate my waste correctly, though what happens to the rubbish after that, who really knows.

I like the idea of refillable packets, like the IronX one already mentioned and think this should be the way forward.

Answers:
1. Definitely this
2. Don't know
3. No - not viable to do this I think.


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## Surrey Sam (Dec 29, 2008)

CarPro's Eco refill packs are great. Take up less room too.

If all manufacturers offered those at a discounted rate, it'd certainly help and I would buy them in the product lines I utilise.


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## Jue (Aug 1, 2016)

With Some couriers the product comes in the bag (packaging) & not in the bottle any ways.


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## dazzlers82 (May 8, 2007)

pxr5 said:


> but I am a diligent recycler, and always separate my waste correctly, though what happens to the rubbish after that, who really knows..


i work in transport, and at one previous workshop we was given ten bins 5 of each colour an told we need to recycle, so we did then the bin man turned up an tipped all 10 bins in the same truck, so i said to the guy why do we need to seperate when its goin in the same truck?? his reply was its crazy isnt it all these new bins at home etc and we go back to the tip an it all gets mixed anyway !!!

Maybe different now but it looked to me as they was just looking to be seen doin the right thing but not actually doin.


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## ganwilliams (Jun 15, 2015)

The_Bouncer said:


> More than happy to look at a recycling scheme were we can refill the bottle at a cheaper price.
> 
> A rough and tumble on the numbers.
> 
> ...


Thanks for taking time to break that down! So many other factors I hadn't considered! Would be interesting to see how many people would pay about £2-3 more! Completely understand and agree recycling plastic is a sensible approach!

Are there other materials (compostable?) that could be used instead of plastics? Having said that I suppose the problem will the material used needs to be able to withstand liquids with be things with very different characteristics? Eg alcohol/ solvent resistance, acid resistant, alkali resistance etc?

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## ganwilliams (Jun 15, 2015)

Surrey Sam said:


> CarPro's Eco refill packs are great. Take up less room too.
> 
> If all manufacturers offered those at a discounted rate, it'd certainly help and I would buy them in the product lines I utilise.


Yeah may not be zero plastic but anything to help reduce the amount is a good thing!

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## ganwilliams (Jun 15, 2015)

pxr5 said:


> Hmm. Slightly OT, but I'm a hoarder and I don't throw away empty bottels. Ultimately I always find another use for them, either the bottle or the spray head. I'll only bin them when I consider them to have absolutely no use whatsoever - but I am a diligent recycler, and always separate my waste correctly, though what happens to the rubbish after that, who really knows.
> 
> I like the idea of refillable packets, like the IronX one already mentioned and think this should be the way forward.
> 
> ...


Haha! Actually me too I do try to reuse my detailing bottles and spray heads etc first before they get recycled

Out of interest have you seen the bouncers response about extra cost of refills? Would you be willing to pay £2-3 more for a refill? I suppose if brands/ resellers have physical stores that are nearby we could visit to refill and save some of the shipping costs?

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## c87reed (Dec 9, 2015)

It would be great to see a solution. I recycle whatever I can and would happily pay say up to 10% if it brought about a considerable cut to waste. Wouldn't solve the need for replacement spray heads though. 

I think it will a start if something could be done to put a stop to the people who don't recycle anything at all, presumably because they are too bone idle.


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## Darlofan (Nov 24, 2010)

I'm a keen recycler much to the wife's annoyance as she'll quite happily chuck paper in our kitchen bin when the blue bag is only on the other side of the kitchen door!
Detailing wise I reuse bottles where possible and buy in bulk and decent if I use a lot of the product. To be honest detailing bottles don't concern me as much as I'm not emptying bottles that often.
On a wider scale I think there should be schemes where you get paid for weighing in plastic bottles. A deposit scheme I think will be too hard for people due to supermarket own brands etc. We had glass deposit years ago but then there were less brands and most of your shop came from the local shop. 
Also supermarkets need a law where they need to provide skips for excessive waste, they'd soon be on to suppliers if they had to pay to get rid of waste.


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## Chris Donaldson (Jun 26, 2016)

I tend to buy a product in 500ml-1L size. If I like it when I need more I buy 5 litres where available and refill the smaller bottle. With stuff that eat the spray heads I have a plain bottle that I can order new heads for as and when required, just reusing the bottle (polished bliss do nice bottles, just put a bit of tape around the bottle with the product name on it so you know what it is). I also tend to see friends and family to see who wants to go in on a buy with me to keep postage costs etc down. I'm just about to order 5 litres of Bilt Hamber Korrosol of which my neighbour wants a litre. That will save us both getting bottles and saves on packaging (he also wants cloths so I'll get those on the same order so it all comes in 1 box, again saving on postage and carbon footprint). In all honesty, this comes from me being tight and looking for value for money but with that I have the biproduct of being more eco friendly.


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## leeandfay (May 2, 2017)

We actually had a section on the website with a poll attached.

We were thinking of a recycle idea similar to the old beer and milk bottle “empties” system.

We would accept your eco order and pay for the return postage and refill your product etc etc. Logistically it would take some sorting but I’ll dig out the post I blogged


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## Radish293 (Mar 16, 2012)

I’ve been buying in bulk and decanting for a while. Took about six plastic 5l empty containers to my local tip yesterday. Not recycled there but sorted elsewhere and recycled as waste derived fuel. Most of which goes to Holland they are so far ahead of us in recycling that they have too little waste to burn in their power stations they import it from us. 


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## Mcpx (Mar 15, 2016)

A very timely subject. With most environmental issues there is always an element of ‘it’s a long way off so won’t affect me’ but this could well have significant consequences on our children’s lives, if not our own. 

With all of the other factors involved it would seem that the best (in practical terms) option would be to buy products in 5l size and then decant into reusable sprays/bottles. Yes there is a higher initial cost but most detailing products that I look at (which is a lot!) are significantly cheaper per ml when purchased in bulk. Purely as a randomly selected example 1l of AF Avalanche is £12 direct from autofinesse, while the 5l version is £30, making it £6 per litre, exactly half price. 500ml of Slick Mick direct from Bouncers is £14 (£28 per litre) and £80 for 5l, (£16 per litre). Obviously there is a saving in packaging cost to the manufacturer, as well as transport and storage savings etc. If more people were to take the 5l option then this saving could even increase through economy of scale. 

The problem with this approach however is that, for the vast majority of likely end users who only look after maybe a couple of cars at most, 5l of a product like shampoo or wheel cleaner etc will probably last them a very, very long time, so they may well be reluctant to commit to a product they have not already tried and tested. If manufacturers offered small, single use sample sizes it might help them choose, something along the lines of paint tester pots for example, while both the monetary and environmental costs of a sachet of product would be virtually negligible. 

Quite a few manufacturers could also do more to improve the ‘reusability’ of their containers as well as the end recyclability of the materials they use. Of the products that I buy frequently, Autofinesse mini spray triggers are pants and get chucked (in the recycling bin of course!) when empty (if they last that long, some are decanted into alternative sprayers long before that) and Sonax BSD bottles are non-refillable, even though they have pretty good spray heads.


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## Pittsy (Jun 14, 2014)

Its important to think about the weight of the plastic to be recycled and the transport costs of refillable bottles not to mention the increase in cost for buying suitable bottles to be refilled.

Just a quick example when thinking about 5ltr purchases (Apart from the value side of things)...

A 5ltr container made from HDPE will weigh in at 250-300g, a decent 500ml PET bottle with weigh in at 30g approx so you are looking at a total plastic weight of 300g, add to that the bottle required to use the 5ltr container say another 30-50 g you are looking at in excess of 300g which is more than the 10 500ml bottles....

So possibly not the best argument.

When you start looking at refillable bottles you need to factor in the carbon foot print of the transport and the increased weight of the bottle to be used (it would need to be good quality).

I think that the best way forward is to ensure that all the plastic we use is recycled in the correct way and that the guys who supply us start to demand bottles that they buy have a decent % of recycled material in them :thumb:


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## Caledoniandream (Oct 9, 2009)

The problem with a lot of containers is that they will age extremely fast, due to the chemicals inside the container breaking the plastic down. 
Every chemical container has a date until this package is resistant and safe to be used.
We notice with recycling (re-using ) IBC's and barrels that for some material the lifespan is about 2years.

Also the affect on the environment when you rinse your bottles to return clean to the manufacturers for refill, chemicals will run into the drainage system. 
Metal containers seem to corroded like hell, and don’t last either. 

A supply system that uses “bag in box” a bit like milk get delivered to canteens etc. 
A PE bag in a sturdy cardboard box, you still have the problem with chemicals entering the waste stream, but PE and cardboard is easy to recycle.

Products like pop, beer and milk should come in recyclable PET bottles,or glass (preferably) with a refund to force the consumer to return the empty bottle (Barr in Scotland had a system like that, and maybe still have) 
Glass bottles are easyer to clean and can be reused up to 40times, when they can get remelted into glass bottles.
I seen a couple of years ago a trail with PET bottles and this worked very well for pop. 

On the continent (Holland) beer comes in cases of 12or 24 and you pay a deposit for that, the glass bottles and the plastic case get reused and they last years.
The cost of transport is minimal as the trucks in general return empty from a delivery to a supermarket and can take the empties back with them. 

So yes for food, not so easy for chemicals.


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## muzzer (Feb 13, 2011)

Maybe something like Thierry Mugler’s perfume refilling stations would be a good idea i think, so you pay a little more for the initial purchase but then get a discounted rate for your refill.
In practice its probably different to pull this off for logistical reasons, if you live in Inverness and you need to travel to say Glasgow for a refill, you’re most likely to opt for a brand that sells a different method.

I do agree that cutting down on plastic is a good idea though


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## spyk3d (Nov 25, 2007)

Just a thought but has anyone offered their empty bottles on here?

I wouldn't mind buying a couple of the 500ml bottles with triggers for things like detailing sprays and would happily cover P&P.


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## stealthwolf (Sep 24, 2008)

The only worry about glass bottles is dropping one. I've dropped bottles of quick detailer now and again, or knocked them over when I've put them on the ground.

As pointed out, 5 litre bottles can be economical for professional detailers. But for someone like me, they may be overkill. It took me over five years to get through Megs APC and I still haven't emptied my Megs Last touch which is about half full.


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## Simonrev (Nov 26, 2012)

I think glass bottles and then refill pouches a bit like you can get with Nescafe ? 

Another option would be metal tins ... the uPol I've just bought comes in such a tin and I'm sure if that doesn't leak someone could make 500ml sizes that can have normal screw on triggers ?


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## rossman999 (Feb 28, 2009)

This is my day job so

There is nothing wrong with plastic, plastic is fantastic stuff and most plastic can be recycled time and time again, the problem with plastic is its incorrect disposal but did you know all that plastic in the sea - under 2% comes from the US & Europe the overwhelming majority comes from just 6 countries - oh these 6 countries are where the UK currently sends its waste as it has refused to invest in its infrastructure. 

Turning to the specifics raised in the post
Glass is heavy and requires a huge amount of energy to be recycled (unless refilled) but most people find that the carbon impact is significantly higher than using a single use plastic. To a manufacture using a heavy material is a huge cost because of the PRN scheme, its in the manufacture interest to reduce the weight of their packaging

Deposit return schemes you need to be VERY careful as its poor introduction will REDUCE recycling as it takes a lot of the value out of the recycling stream

Most modern collection trucks are multi compartment so although the material goes in the same truck it is segregated. Mixed plastic has no value or negative value but a single stream plastic is valuable as people know what it is - it makes no sense to mix


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## rossman999 (Feb 28, 2009)

Pittsy said:


> I think that the best way forward is to ensure that all the plastic we use is recycled in the correct way and that the guys who supply us start to demand bottles that they buy have a decent % of recycled material in them :thumb:


Under ADR regulations you cannot use recycled plastic for UN chemicals which a lot of our bulk supplies will fall under.


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## Pittsy (Jun 14, 2014)

rossman999 said:


> Under ADR regulations you cannot use recycled plastic for UN chemicals which a lot of our bulk supplies will fall under.


I might be wrong but I think those rules apply to IBC's not smaller containers. A HDPE container will inherently have a proportion of recycled material in it due to the manufacturing process and I would not be suprised if most common non food PET bottles contain recycled material :thumb:

You only have to look on the shop shelves and see PET bottles with up to 50% recycled material in them (we have even made them at 100% but the end users are not keen on the colour).


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## rossman999 (Feb 28, 2009)

Once it is above a certain capacity depending on the liquid used it will come under ADR regulations and you wont be able to use recycled, below this minimum capacity you will be able to use recycled but you need to watch its stress crack resistance if you are storing a detergent. 
You have to watch some of the green-wash claims that some of the brand owners are using some of which are totally misleading.


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## Simonrev (Nov 26, 2012)

Surely then tins are the answer ? years ago most liquid polishes came in small tins with a screw top and waxes your normal round metal tin ...

I would have thought this can be recycled without a problem and apart from a screw top is plastic free


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## DTB (Dec 20, 2017)

Pittsy said:


> (we have even made them at 100% but the end users are not keen on the colour).


This is bizarre. What colour were they?


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## Eddmeister (May 6, 2011)

Caledoniandream said:


> Products like pop, beer and milk should come in recyclable PET bottles,or glass (preferably) with a refund to force the consumer to return the empty bottle (Barr in Scotland had a system like that, and maybe still have)


Stopped it a while ago, no longer cost effective.


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## rossman999 (Feb 28, 2009)

Simonrev said:


> Surely then tins are the answer ? years ago most liquid polishes came in small tins with a screw top and waxes your normal round metal tin ...
> 
> I would have thought this can be recycled without a problem and apart from a screw top is plastic free


Look at the weight of tins, they have a far higher carbon footprint than plastic.

There is nothing wrong with plastic used in the correct application its the incorrect disposal that's the problem - who the F puts cotton buds down the loo?


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## Pittsy (Jun 14, 2014)

DTB said:


> This is bizarre. What colour were they?


They tend to come out with a greeny blue tint which as you can imagine if you are putting some orange juice in for instance looks a bit odd.

For a good example buy a Innocent smoothie (250ml) and this will give you an example of what a 50/50 mix looks like :thumb:


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