# Dual Action over Rotory WHY???



## Garry Spight (May 20, 2008)

*Why do people on here swear by DA polishers like the PC, UDM and G220,
I have Always used a Makita 9227CB and I have been so impressed by it i have never thought of using a DA polisher. But then one of my friends let me try a G220 and I found it so slow at getting any kind of result, I am surprised anyone really puts up with this. Maybe its because people are scared of Rotorys. TBH You REALLY have to work to cause damage to paint on the softer pads so Please people try to over come the fear, Give rotorys a chance I can guarantee you wont look back. *


----------



## Chris_R (Feb 3, 2008)

I know what you mean but the prospect of spending £100 extra on a DA unit rather than "however much a respray will be" is hard to beat.

I am going straight in to the rotary realm myself but this is partially driven by my paint hardness which I worry that a DA will not give me the full correction I want.


----------



## Jaygo (Apr 7, 2008)

I’m tempted to a machine and the obvious choice initially for me would be a DA.

Since you’re experienced I think you have some inking why.

You say you have to ‘work to do some damage’ with a Rotary whereas with a DA the argument is you virtually have to set out to cause damage before you will do so.

A DA for someone like me, who has never used a machine, is an inherently safer option, and whilst a Rotary has the edge on DA’s for speed and the final bit of finish, a DA is still a dramatic step up from hand work.

If you can afford the extra time required, a DA would suit many, most of the time.


----------



## Garry Spight (May 20, 2008)

I know the cut is NOWHERE near as good and takes forever. I dont understand it if people are that worried, Maybe get yourself to the breakers get a scrap panel and practise on that first you will soon see what your missing.


----------



## Garry Spight (May 20, 2008)

When I next get to see my mate with the meg G220 I will Do a 50/50 panel 
with Both machines and time them. Then I will show you the difference of finish between the two. You can burmish to a lot higher standard with a makita.


----------



## Bigpikle (May 21, 2007)

doesnt always take forever, gives a good finish fairly easily on most paints, hardly any learning curve compared to a rotary, VERY safe compared to a rotary, so for someone just doing a few cars a year it makes perfect sense  Did a black Pug with somebody on here earlier this week, and we were getting excellent correction in 1 hit with the UDM on almost all panels, and had the car totally done in 4 hours of polishing. It wasnt 100% and we werent chasing out all the deep scratches, but the car was transformed easily 

It takes more than just a 'bit of practice' IMHO - I have done loads of cars by UDM, and spent a long time working on scrap panels with my rotary, but am still not anywhere near fully proficient and able to cope with all the curvy bits  Quite honestly I have wondered a few times if its worth the effort, and if it was just my 3 cars then i wouldnt bother. I look at it as a long term investment so am prepared to make the effort, but most people here are simply weekend detailers and it just isnt worth the effort...


----------



## KingfisherA3 (Sep 5, 2007)

DA's get good results on anything non-german (generaly). And you dont have to worry much about holograms/trails


----------



## Garry Spight (May 20, 2008)

Maybe that is why. I suppose I have never thought about it like that i have used my mak for 5 years now day in day out. Then to go to a DA from that maybe I just noticed the difference that bad. But for all those weekenders out there who dont know any diff I suppose it dont matter. But anyone thinking of doing more often should defo consider rotory


----------



## Chris_R (Feb 3, 2008)

Bigpikle said:


> doesnt always take forever, gives a good finish fairly easily on most paints, hardly any learning curve compared to a rotary, VERY safe compared to a rotary, so for someone just doing a few cars a year it makes perfect sense  Did a black Pug with somebody on here earlier this week, and we were getting excellent correction in 1 hit with the UDM on almost all panels, and had the car totally done in 4 hours of polishing. It wasnt 100% and we werent chasing out all the deep scratches, but the car was transformed easily
> 
> It takes more than just a 'bit of practice' IMHO - I have done loads of cars by UDM, and spent a long time working on scrap panels with my rotary, but am still not anywhere near fully proficient and able to cope with all the curvy bits  Quite honestly I have wondered a few times if its worth the effort, and if it was just my 3 cars then i wouldnt bother. I look at it as a long term investment so am prepared to make the effort, but most people here are simply weekend detailers and it just isnt worth the effort...


Interesting, its things like this that put me back into the should I, shouldn't I mindset again. I only plan on doing my car with the polisher and only what, once or maybe twice a year ?
Am I really going to get the practise with such amounts of work?


----------



## -ROM- (Feb 23, 2007)

One thing that interests me is the notion that some people think that a rotary will acheive a slightly better/sharper finish? I know some are in this camp and some are not but AFAIK there has never been a final answer as to if a DA can get the same results as a rotary, albeit taking longer.


----------



## spitfire (Feb 10, 2007)

With care and patience the DA can give every bit as good a finish as a rotary and given that even with no experience you can virtually use it straight from the box, it makes it a great peice of kit. Into the bargain, the fact that it causes less heat build up, it makes for a very safe option for use on plastic panels. So it does have it's advantages. That said the rotary is a great tool too. I have just moved over to using one this year and I love it's speed of correction. Of course, this rotary v. DA arguement is well documented throughout DW.


----------



## Garry Spight (May 20, 2008)

Maybe you are right. In my eyes they seem to be better. Maybe we should organise a scientific test to see what is best.


----------



## -ROM- (Feb 23, 2007)

Garry Spight said:


> Maybe you are right. In my eyes they seem to be better. Maybe we should organise a scientific test to see what is best.


yeah, it is a shame there isn't a machine like a PTG that you can put to corrected paint and it will give some sort of numerical indication of the gloss and clarity achieved!


----------



## spitfire (Feb 10, 2007)

rmorgan84 said:


> yeah, it is a shame there isn't a machine like a PTG that you can put to corrected paint and it will give some sort of numerical indication of the gloss and clarity achieved!


There is. Epoch and L200 I'm sure it was who used one. I may be mistaken though


----------



## Bigpikle (May 21, 2007)

spitfire said:


> There is. Epoch and L200 I'm sure it was who used one. I may be mistaken though


yep - the Glossmeter measures...wait for it... the gloss...on the surface, and was used to compare the finish from 3 finishing polishes.

Some people swear you can get a better finish following a rotary with a DA machine  I have seen excellent finishes from both...


----------



## Garry Spight (May 20, 2008)

Well who has one? Can we use it to test it?


----------



## Wheelie_Clean (Jun 16, 2007)

The gloss meter was 'borrowed' i believe (to test) for a weekend as it is a very expensive bit of kit and not something you would have a regular use for in detailing at least.

http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=60574&highlight=astra

The above thread (superb read) has links to all the other threads relating to the various tests


----------



## KnightUnit (Dec 31, 2007)

I went straight into rotary and have completed 3/4 of my black lexus today, with no troubles and the finish came up great.


----------



## Garry Spight (May 20, 2008)

Thats good. How many cars have you done before with it? Did you train with it before?


----------



## roscopervis (Aug 22, 2006)

I went straight to rotary, having played with a PC and found it ok, but pretty slow.

Its a case of practicing carefully on some scrap panels or a really clapped out car (like I did) before actually attempting to do it for someone else or on your pride and joy.

There is a danger element however, so the rotary requires much more respect than the DA machine. Give it that respect and for most paints, is a superior machine. Only really soft paints can be a pain, like Honda's, here the DA's less aggressive nature helps.


----------



## HC1001 (May 27, 2007)

I have had some great results with my G220 but I am thinking of buying a silverline soon to add to my collection, I think I will use the rotary on things like bonnet,boot, roof etc and save the G220 for the more difficult parts and applying sealents etc.:thumb:


----------



## Garry Spight (May 20, 2008)

I would spend the extra bit of cash a go with a makita


----------



## HC1001 (May 27, 2007)

Garry Spight said:


> I would spend the extra bit of cash a go with a makita


I would love a makita but it's alot more cash for something I would use a few times a year!! Anyway I like the metabo!!


----------



## mart21 (May 15, 2008)

Hi, i'm looking at getting a Makita, any idea on the best place to go to buy one?


----------



## skynet2029 (Mar 18, 2008)

http://www.powertools2u.co.uk/mall/productpage.cfm/powertools2u/9227CB

Cheapest ive seen @ £154.85 delivered.

Far quicker and instantly you see better correction.

My Volvo paint is hard and the wasnt cutting it as well as I had hope using megs 83 and SFX1, now using the Makita i can get away with SFX3 and Menz final finish and get great correction leaving only a few RDS.

Ive alot to learn myself but so far I love them both just I think the DA's are better suited for none german and possibly sweedish cars.


----------



## Garry Spight (May 20, 2008)

Skynet is right that is prob the cheapest place to buy one from. In my personal opinion the makita is excellent value for money considering a g220 is £149 for a not as good product.


----------



## Mike V (Apr 7, 2007)

I jumped straight in and went for a silverline. I am lucky though as I have a scrap car sitting on my drive way upon which I could practise. Did a few practise panels and experimented. 

Built my confidence up and then moved onto my sisters car. (notice not mine) ha ha!!!


----------



## mart21 (May 15, 2008)

Thanks i'll have a look, The cheapest i found it for was £170+


----------



## KnightUnit (Dec 31, 2007)

Garry Spight said:


> Thats good. How many cars have you done before with it? Did you train with it before?


Only from what I read on DW, only practise was partly on an old Clio, but not overly much. Was just to get a feel for it.

As mentioned before, I have used a lot of power tools, so had a good idea of what to expect.


----------



## Dave KG (Feb 23, 2006)

A few little points from me about dual action versus rotary...

First of all, on the merits of dual action polishers... for those who have never picked up a machine polisher before they make an ideal and most importantly near completely safe training ground as well as being an effective tool in its own right. A DA will correct as well as a rotary will, just in some cases it will take longer but this isn't really a factor to an enthusiast, is it? Indeed, a DA is every bit as capable of producing first class finishes as a rotary in the right hands and also they dont take that much longer when used correctly on many paints and indeed sometimes they are faster. 

An interesting thread and very worthy of reading exists on Autopia about the amounts of paint removed by DA versus rotary - the results may well surptrise you that in actual fact, the DA was removing more!!

Rotary polishers, yes they are safe, but do I agree with having to work very hard to damage with them? Nope - you just have to look at some rotary polishing work to know what they can do without proper use and care. Burning through on an edge is very easy to do for the inexperienced user not paying attention... But its not really this kind of paint damage that is to worry about - its the terrible finish that a rotary can leave when it is not used correctly for finishing: hologramming, and rotary swirls. Much easier to put in than micromarring is with a dual action polisher and this is another key reason that the dual action makes an easier tool for the novice to pick up and learn compared to a rotary, and the DA will also happily generate finishes of a quality pretty much that of the rotary, and in the real world terms (which we dont need fancy meters to analyse) exactly the same. 

Yes - rotary polishers have the reputation of being the tool for the advanced user, and the tool for the "big boys"... And the DA seems to have to play second fiddle which is somewhat unfair given the results they can achieve, a DA is every bit as good. You can of course jump straight to rotary, and there is no harm in this so long as you hone your finishing techniques most importantly and exercise care and common sense.

But the beauty of the DA for a newbie is there is a safety cushion there that does not exist with a rotary which in my eyes makes it a highly relevant tool for anyone machine polishing, be they pro, enthusiast or beginner. Indeed, some pros have found paint issues on details that have forced them to use a DA polisher as the rotary polishers were suffering from "sticky paint" syndrome which was making their use nigh on impossible.


----------



## Dream Machines (Mar 13, 2006)

Great post Dave. 
I guess there are alot of people who do not detail professionally and might detail their own cars and a few friends cars as well so the cost of a rotary may not be worth the time it is used.

Rotary is my choice though, the makita is magnificent


----------



## Dream Machines (Mar 13, 2006)

Great stuff as usual dave

What is the price difference in USA/UK between professional DA, orbital and rotary machines
if there is not alot, perhaps the weekend warrior could switch to a rotary
It's an investment, it is always there when you need it and you are guaranteed of getting maximum correction from them.


----------



## Chris_R (Feb 3, 2008)

Dream Machines said:


> Great stuff as usual dave
> 
> What is the price difference in USA/UK between professional DA, orbital and rotary machines
> if there is not alot, perhaps the weekend warrior could switch to a rotary
> It's an investment, it is always there when you need it and you are guaranteed of getting maximum correction from them.


There is really nothing in it to be honest, these are the cheapest prices I had found via google, ebay and links on here. This is all best recommended kit that I could work out from many hours looking through posts on here during my research into my purchase this week.
Prices are worked out to the door, this is important as no supplier (other than the G220 ebay one) has ALL of the items under one roof so you are looking at least two lots of P&P.

UDM with DAS Pads = £99 + £19.99 postage on ebay at the moment (130224193651). Then you need to add a 110v site transformer at £40 plus the connector and flex around £6. Then you need to add postage at £5 (TLC Electronics carry all items or you can shop around but the postage is dearer at most others so remember to add that!):
TOTAL = £169.99

G220 with 3M Pads set = £175 - ebay (110243362586), however this also comes with 2 rolls of the blue 3M masking tape + polish samples. The two rolls of tape are around a fiver from suppliers here and needed really anyways. The polish is a bonus even if it is only 100ml of each.
TOTAL = £175

Kestrel Rotary SIM180 = £57 from Autopaint Pro. Plus (recommended on here) 3M backing plate £21.99 is going rate on ebay (110243654250). Plus a set of 3 pads (DAS from CYC seem reasonable price as most others are dearer - Megs at £10.95 a pad for instance) £26.85 + £4.95 post
TOTAL = £110.79

You can substitute the Kestrel for a Orange Silverline from Kingdom Tools at £48.08 delivered. Or again substitute a Flex, Metabo, Makita etc into that price above if you want to compare directly with the others.

Between the top two there is little choice in my mind - UDM vs G220 - either reliable track record with no warranty or you can have the other with a unproven (possibly tarnished at this stage) history BUT with UK warranty and good customer care from what I hear on other threads.

The rotary is harder choice, especially for a newby.

I didn't work out getting it from the USA personally for two reasons, firstly the lack of warranty is an issue in my mind. I am spending £100+ on a bit of equipment to clean my car! That is more than 99% of the UK will spend on car washes in the life of their vehicle, in fact I could probably buy a car for the same price if I fancied a banger LOL. The other reason is the random number generator that is the import tax etc. I just could not work that out to any firm number.

Hope that helps anyone else starting out looking for rotary or DA unit. Feel free to debate my product choice - I very well may have it completely wrong LOL!


----------



## richjohnhughes (Sep 24, 2007)

what about plastic bumpers???


----------



## Dave KG (Feb 23, 2006)

Chris_R said:


> There is really nothing in it to be honest, these are the cheapest prices I had found via google, ebay and links on here. This is all best recommended kit that I could work out from many hours looking through posts on here during my research into my purchase this week.
> Prices are worked out to the door, this is important as no supplier (other than the G220 ebay one) has ALL of the items under one roof so you are looking at least two lots of P&P.
> 
> UDM with DAS Pads = £99 + £19.99 postage on ebay at the moment (130224193651). Then you need to add a 110v site transformer at £40 plus the connector and flex around £6. Then you need to add postage at £5 (TLC Electronics carry all items or you can shop around but the postage is dearer at most others so remember to add that!):
> ...


Good post :thumb:

Only thing I would say is that the reliability record of the UDM is patchy also with many reports I can remember of problems with them too, and I think the causes are pretty much the same as the G220 but the G220 is backed by a UK warranty, the UDM is sold via Autopia who are reknowned for customer service being excellent.



richjohnhughes said:


> what about plastic bumpers???


Rotary can be used - I personally go for slower speeds and also important that you keep the heat at an absolute minimum as heat on plastics can not be conducted away like metals and the plastics can get hot quickly if you are not careful causing the paint to bubble.

DAs definitely the safer here as there is less margin for error.


----------



## evobaz (Aug 28, 2007)

Dave KG said:


> Good post :thumb:
> 
> Only thing I would say is that the reliability record of the UDM is patchy also with many reports I can remember of problems with them too, and I think the causes are pretty much the same as the G220 but the G220 is backed by a UK warranty, the UDM is sold via Autopia who are reknowned for customer service being excellent.
> 
> DAs definitely the safer here as there is less margin for error.


UDM now have a UK repair program set up. Faulty UDM's are uplifted, repaired and returned. If its beyond repair then a new unit is sourced from the US.

Alternative to the UDM is the PC - ebay item 190233516988 - £180 for the PC7424, 110v transformer, 3 Sonus SFX pads, 3 bottles Sonus polish etc


----------



## Dave KG (Feb 23, 2006)

Thats good to know... I'd go for the PC myself for its proven reliability record.


----------



## millerman (Jun 19, 2008)

very interesting 
i personally went for a meg's g220 i have a the sonus sf1-2 and 3 pads, 
and the megs 6inch pads using the megs swirl remover and other megs products i have had some great results and can really recomend it to first time users as i am one of them. 
however i would like to try a rotary and may get a silverline orange soon, 
just to further my own skills as the silverline is way cheeper than the makita i wont use it day in day out so makes sence.
i think at the end of the day its personal prefrence to which machine your going to go for
read up about it on this forum to help you make your choice as i did.

kel


----------



## poppasmurf (Apr 27, 2007)

Mainly thanks to Dave KG and his excellent how to guides i was convinced rotary was the way to go.

I jumped in at the deep end and bought the makita, I then set about on a few scrap panels and moved over onto what was then a brand new ST3 to remove the dealer instilled defects.

I havent looked back and had some amazing results thx to some patience a lot of forum reading and the courage to go for the rotary.


----------



## s2ook (Nov 16, 2006)

Another point about the DA vs rotary is the difference in vibration with the rotary. After a days detailing with the DA you will be suffering a lot more than with the rotary.


----------



## Dave KG (Feb 23, 2006)

s2ook said:


> Another point about the DA vs rotary is the difference in vibration with the rotary. After a days detailing with the DA you will be suffering a lot more than with the rotary.


Padded gloves help if you have to spend a few days solid on a DA...


----------



## PJS (Aug 18, 2007)

Depends on which DA you use! 
Not all are tooth-filler-rattlers.


----------



## Altern8 (Nov 10, 2006)

good reading material


----------



## Guest (Aug 30, 2008)

I had a porter cable 7424 but do find it hard going! Especially on German paint. Stepping up to a rotary, it looks like its going to be the Milwawaukee AP12QE, need more power on that VW/Audi tough paint!


----------



## Dave KG (Feb 23, 2006)

Stuart2006 said:


> I had a porter cable 7424 but do find it hard going! Especially on German paint. Stepping up to a rotary, it looks like its going to be the Milwawaukee AP12QE, need more power on that VW/Audi tough paint!


Or more time... 

One of the earliest details I posted on this forum was an Audi A4, full of car wash swirls and very severe at that... it was suggested at the time that a dual action would not cope - but as its essentially doing what a rotary will do from the point of view of it abrading paint (and thus correction) only more slowly, it shoudl be up to the task - and indeed it was. Took me 3 days, but a dual action will get there and I would point out that to get the correction I did achieve on that car with a rotary would have taken me two days... yes it works a bit faster, but its not that a DA cannot cope.

Interesting reading on Autopia as well regarding the relative paint removal rates of a DA and a rotary, which the implications that a DA can remove _more_ paint...


----------



## m500dpp (Feb 17, 2006)

great thread!

surely the flex 3401 deserves a mention in here? Lots more corrective power than the PC but still RA so safer than the full rotary. Initial impressions are it can quickly put a lot of heat into the paint (therefore more corrective power ) whilst being easily controllable with the softer pads.

The 3401 can be guided around the paint by slightly altering the pressure fore and aft and left and right (similar to a rotary?) 

with a firmer pad you need to keep hold of it as it can run away - had to lift off quick when it did this on my first attempt at a roof!!!! So far well pleased with it and the quality of build is far better than the g220 udm etc. At theUK price of 300gbp its a joke but sourced from the states at 245gbp inc 10 pads and spare backing plate it knocks the UDM/G220 into the weeds! (machine on its own 135 gbp!) 

will report further - have a couple of KAs to do with badly swirled paint, think I can correct with 80 rather than 83 because of the extra power of the 3401 over the pc I have used for the last 3 years.......


----------



## Guest (Aug 30, 2008)

Dave KG said:


> Or more time...
> 
> One of the earliest details I posted on this forum was an Audi A4, full of car wash swirls and very severe at that... it was suggested at the time that a dual action would not cope - but as its essentially doing what a rotary will do from the point of view of it abrading paint (and thus correction) only more slowly, it shoudl be up to the task - and indeed it was. *Took me 3 days, but a dual action will get there *and I would point out that to get the correction I did achieve on that car with a rotary would have taken me two days... yes it works a bit faster, but its not that a DA cannot cope.
> 
> Interesting reading on Autopia as well regarding the relative paint removal rates of a DA and a rotary, which the implications that a DA can remove _more_ paint...


3 days I dont have, I'm married and the missus can be very demanding on my time! The rotary should help keep us *both* happy lol!


----------

