# Did Bilt Hamber Auto Foam Remove My Wax?



## BradleyW (May 4, 2015)

It seems that time and time again, whenever I use BH auto foam (4% mix via hand spray foam pump), my LSP no longer beads or sheets. I spray on, leave to dwell for 5 minutes and rinse off as instructed on the bottle.

The LSP's I've used are Turtle Wax original, Gtechniq C3, Sonax BSD and Bilt Hamber's very own Double Speed Wax.

It isn't surfactants masking the beading properties because I rinse well and go over the car with Dodo Juice Born To Be Mild followed by a final rinse. To confirm, beading and sheeting is gone "before" the contact wash.

Help?

Thank you.


----------



## sm81 (May 14, 2011)

It might still be surfactans. Try to wait hour or and then rinse car throughout once again. It may help.


----------



## BradleyW (May 4, 2015)

sm81 said:


> It might still be surfactans. Try to wait hour or and then rinse car throughout once again. It may help.


I've tried rinsing the car panel by panel extremely thoroughly several times over to rule out surfactants.

I then wipe the car dry with flush MF towels. A week or two later, when I wash the car, there is still no beading or sheeting.


----------



## Brian1612 (Apr 5, 2015)

Not something I've ever experienced in my 10L of autofoam. 5 minutes sounds a long time for it to dwell though, especially in this warmer weather. I've never really gave it anymore than 2-3 mins tbh so could be it's drying out and damaging the LSP due to this? Direct sunlight?

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk


----------



## BradleyW (May 4, 2015)

Brian1612 said:


> Not something I've ever experienced in my 10L of autofoam. 5 minutes sounds a long time for it to dwell though, especially in this warmer weather. I've never really gave it anymore than 2-3 mins tbh so could be it's drying out and damaging the LSP due to this? Direct sunlight?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk


Always washed in the shade. I don't let it dry out. Come to think of it, I don't think I leave it for 5 minutes. It is more like 2-3 minutes.


----------



## piston_warrior (Jul 25, 2012)

I use it at ~4-5% PIR and leave it to dwell 5 mins or so and it always revives the beading on Fusso and Finis Wax. I’ve had Fusso last over 8 months on my car whilst getting foamed at least every two weeks.

Do you panel wipe before wax/sealant application? Are you 100% sure you’re using a 4% ratio?

Failing that I haven’t a clue sorry.


----------



## BradleyW (May 4, 2015)

piston_warrior said:


> I use it at ~4-5% PIR and leave it to dwell 5 mins or so and it always revives the beading on Fusso and Finis Wax. I've had Fusso last over 8 months on my car whilst getting foamed at least every two weeks.
> 
> Do you panel wipe before wax/sealant application? Are you 100% sure you're using a 4% ratio?
> 
> Failing that I haven't a clue sorry.


I use BH cleanser fluid to prep a surface after a pre wash and contact wash. I apply any LSP via it's instructions and ensure the car doesn't get wet or washed 24 hours after.

4% PIR would be 40ml BH to 960ml Water in my 1lt pump sprayer, right?


----------



## Brian1612 (Apr 5, 2015)

BradleyW said:


> I use BH cleanser fluid to prep a surface after a pre wash and contact wash. I apply any LSP via it's instructions and ensure the car doesn't get wet or washed 24 hours after.
> 
> 4% PIR would be 40ml BH to 960ml Water in my 1lt pump sprayer, right?


Has the car ever been properly decontaminated during your ownership? (wash, de-tar, fallout, clay, polish & panel wipe).

Cleanser fluid is a great panel wipe but it's not going to prep a car properly for LSP, especially a synthetic based product like DSW.

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk


----------



## BradleyW (May 4, 2015)

Brian1612 said:


> Has the car ever been properly decontaminated during your ownership? (wash, de-tar, fallout, clay, polish & panel wipe).
> 
> Cleanser fluid is a great panel wipe but it's not going to prep a car properly for LSP, especially a synthetic based product like DSW.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk


Yes it has had all the works under my ownership including full decontamination and correction. Wash, Tar, Iron-X, Clay, Polish, Cleanser all last year. Recently it has had everything apart from Tar, Clay, Polish. As the paint is thin and can't risk swirls from the clay. Even so, after the prep last year, all the LSP's I ever tried just fail after using BH snow. The first I tried was DSW.


----------



## Brian1612 (Apr 5, 2015)

I'm stumped then... is it an old bottle? How has it been stored? Other than that if the paints in good nick I have no idea what the issue is.

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk


----------



## sm81 (May 14, 2011)

BradleyW said:


> Yes it has had all the works under my ownership including full decontamination and correction. Wash, Tar, Iron-X, Clay, Polish, Cleanser all last year. Recently it has had everything apart from Tar, Clay, Polish. As the paint is thin and can't risk swirls from the clay. Even so, after the prep last year, all the LSP's I ever tried just fail after using BH snow. The first I tried was DSW.


You should contact Bilt-Hamber then. They will solve this, I believe.


----------



## Gixxer6 (Apr 5, 2014)

That's strange as I have used BH DSW on both my car and my wife's car and always use BH AF (via pressure/foam lance) before washing with BH Shampoo and even when rinsing the BH AF off, I notice beading and this can be after months since applying DSW. 
You mentioned that the beading and sheeting is gone after BH AF, something I've never had but I remembered this thread where DDBTBM was used and sheeting and beading were affected, I know it's not the same issue as you described but it might be interesting anyway: https://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=413223

How are you rinsing off the BH AF, with a pressure washer or hose?

Was the paintwork completely clean when you applied the LSP? Meaning did you use cleanser fluid/panel wipe before applying LSP?



BradleyW said:


> It seems that time and time again, whenever I use BH auto foam (4% mix via hand spray foam pump), my LSP no longer beads or sheets. I spray on, leave to dwell for 5 minutes and rinse off as instructed on the bottle.
> 
> The LSP's I've used are Turtle Wax original, Gtechniq C3, Sonax BSD and Bilt Hamber's very own Double Speed Wax.
> 
> ...


----------



## Taxboy (Aug 23, 2006)

Apologies if you've already stated but does the beading / sheeting return once you've washed with the shampoo ?

Sent from my XT1032 using Tapatalk


----------



## great gonzo (Nov 4, 2010)

Many more products out there, if you can’t get on with it after a few try’s I’d move on. 


Gonz.


----------



## Brian1612 (Apr 5, 2015)

great gonzo said:


> Many more products out there, if you can't get on with it after a few try's I'd move on.
> 
> Gonz.


That is very true! Some real competition on the market now for autofoam.

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk


----------



## BradleyW (May 4, 2015)

Thanks for chipping in folks. I washed the car yesterday and used BH snow foam. As usual, 4% PIR. Sprayed on, left a few minutes, rinsed off. The beading was fine! This time I'm using Fusso and the Fusso didn't seem to be negatively effected by the BH foam.


----------



## Moleyman69 (Jun 16, 2019)

I had put Megs Ultimate Paste Wax base topped with Ultimate Fast Finish on my car.

Tried BH Auto Foam mixed in a 5 litre sprayer (mixed as per a detailed thread I read here) and I am sure it took off all my protection.

I have put the TurtleWax sealant on now and will see how this holds up when I hit it with the BH again.

Al the best,

Moley


----------



## BradleyW (May 4, 2015)

Moleyman69 said:


> I had put Megs Ultimate Paste Wax base topped with Ultimate Fast Finish on my car.
> 
> Tried BH Auto Foam mixed in a 5 litre sprayer (mixed as per a detailed thread I read here) and I am sure it took off all my protection.
> 
> ...


Did you do any prep before applying the wax?


----------



## WristyManchego (Sep 9, 2018)

Moleyman69 said:


> I had put Megs Ultimate Paste Wax base topped with Ultimate Fast Finish on my car.
> 
> Tried BH Auto Foam mixed in a 5 litre sprayer (mixed as per a detailed thread I read here) and I am sure it took off all my protection.
> 
> ...


Why was your strategy to top a wax with a sealant?


----------



## Moleyman69 (Jun 16, 2019)

Hi WristyManchego

I seem to recall that I had read that this was a good combo on another forum - maybe Autopia or Meguiar Online. Other than that - I dunno &#55357;&#56832;

All the best

moley


----------



## WristyManchego (Sep 9, 2018)

Moleyman69 said:


> Hi WristyManchego
> 
> I seem to recall that I had read that this was a good combo on another forum - maybe Autopia or Meguiar Online. Other than that - I dunno í*½í¸
> 
> ...


Meguiars relentless use of the word "wax" for everything, got me; It's a synthetic sealant.

Still don't know why you'd cover one with the other. But hey, people gotta do what people do.


----------



## BradleyW (May 4, 2015)

Just an update, my Fusso is starting to fail after just 3 weeks on the bonnet and roof. All other panels are beading and sheeting as good as day one.

Car has only been washed twice in the 3 weeks. Dirt and surfactants are not to blame because I washed and rinsed thoroughly.

Wash procedure:
BH Foam (3% impact ratio), rinsed, contact wash (Dodo Juice BTBM), rinsed, FSE wiped on wiped off (all panels).

I don't think BH Foam is to blame this time because beading was fine after using it on the first wash. If FSE or BTBM was to blame, all panels would be effected.

I also apply the wax using a damp MF pad by hand.


----------



## fatdazza (Dec 29, 2010)

Have you washed the car? Roof and bonnet tend to collect dirt more than other panels. Beading on an unwashed car drops off there first.

Fusso lasts for several months.


----------



## BradleyW (May 4, 2015)

fatdazza said:


> Have you washed the car? Roof and bonnet tend to collect dirt more than other panels. Beading on an unwashed car drops off there first.
> 
> Fusso lasts for several months.


I did indeed wash it.



> Dirt and surfactants are not to blame because I washed and rinsed thoroughly.
> 
> Wash procedure:
> BH Foam (3% impact ratio), rinsed, contact wash (Dodo Juice BTBM), rinsed, FSE wiped on wiped off (all panels).


----------



## BradleyW (May 4, 2015)

I'm just going to jot a few things down here:

1) Could the FSE spray after each wash cause harm to Fusso's longevity or characterises?
2) Could BH foam weaken the Fusso? Same goes for BTBM.
3) Could applying Fusso with a "wet" MF applicator rather than a dry one cause bonding issues?
4) Maybe the chemical decon wasn't enough, and may require a clay bar and polish? (Last done a year ago).
5) Has the dirt over the last few weeks weakened Fusso?
6) Maybe the hot sun has weakened it on the horizontal panels? (those panels take all lot of heat).

Just shooting a few idea's as they come into my head.


----------



## Andyblue (Jun 20, 2017)

BradleyW said:


> I'm just going to jot a few things down here:
> 
> 1) Could the FSE spray after each wash cause harm to Fusso's longevity or characterises?
> 2) Could BH foam weaken the Fusso? Same goes for BTBM.
> ...


My thoughts on some of your questions raised...

1) - I would think yes, this potentially is what's causing you the issues you're having. I presume you mean KC FSE QD spray, if so, from Carpro UK website...

Koch Chemie FSE - Finish Spray Exterior quick detail spray with limescale remover.

All-round detailing spray for fast care of all external vehicle surfaces such as paintwork, glass and plastics. With its special formula even stubborn limescale stains are removed quickly and without leaving any residue.
Cleans, maintains and preserves in a single step. Depth of colour is returned leaving a smooth brilliant high gloss free from streaks. Finish Spray exterior is quickly removed, is easy to use and protects the surfaces against new dirt.

Warnings : 
*Mild acid - do not use in vehicle interiors or on acid-sensitive surfaces.* 
Do not use on hot surfaces. 
Before using, check suitability and compatibility.

This would be my bet that it's effecting Fusso...

I presume you're getting your BH foam PIR correct.

Just my thoughts...


----------



## WristyManchego (Sep 9, 2018)

Nice one Andy, you’re on the money.

Most limescale/water spot removers are acid based, commonly hydrochloric, which can etch glass without a problem.

No LSPs stand a chance.

To confirm, have you been using FSE on the entire car or more concentrated on the horizontal panels?


----------



## BradleyW (May 4, 2015)

Andyblue said:


> My thoughts on some of your questions raised...
> 
> 1) - I would think yes, this potentially is what's causing you the issues you're having. I presume you mean KC FSE QD spray, if so, from Carpro UK website...
> 
> ...





WristyManchego said:


> Nice one Andy, you're on the money.
> 
> Most limescale/water spot removers are acid based, commonly hydrochloric, which can etch glass without a problem.
> 
> ...


You are correct, it is Kotch FSE QD. I've been spraying it neat onto every panel after washing. I spray more of it on horizontal panels.

I've since topped up the bonnet and roof with more Fusso. I'll try and avoid using FSE. What QD could I use to remove water spots during the drying phase, without effecting Fusso's longevity or characteristics?

Thank you, much appreciated.


----------



## Brian1612 (Apr 5, 2015)

Been saying the exact same for a while now Andyblue with regards to the FSE but nobody listened... 

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk


----------



## BradleyW (May 4, 2015)

Brian1612 said:


> Been saying the exact same for a while now Andyblue with regards to the FSE but nobody listened...
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk


I thought I'd try FSE on Fusso seen as a highly regarded member on the forum said it likely won't do harm. Unfortunately it would seem it does. I'll continue to monitor over the coming weeks without the use of FSE. We'll see how it goes.

I just hope applying the Fusso on top of already existing failing Fusso hasn't harmed longevity too much!


----------



## Brian1612 (Apr 5, 2015)

BradleyW said:


> I thought I'd try FSE on Fusso seen as a highly regarded member on the forum said it likely won't do harm. Unfortunately it would seem it does. I'll continue to monitor over the coming weeks without the use of FSE. We'll see how it goes.
> 
> I just hope applying the Fusso on top of already existing failing Fusso hasn't harmed longevity too much!


Wasn't aimed at you specifically bud, just in general as I have seen people advising this as a run of the mill QD when it really isn't. I said at the time it's not something you should be using regularly, it's aimed specifically for extremely stubborn waterspots that has sat on paint a while and not your typical ones from car washing that can be removed with a damp MF.

Fusso is solvent heavy so applying a layer on top may have helped shift the first and create a more uniform layer with the 2nd application.

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk


----------



## BradleyW (May 4, 2015)

Brian1612 said:


> Wasn't aimed at you specifically bud, just in general as I have seen people advising this as a run of the mill QD when it really isn't. I said at the time it's not something you should be using regularly, it's aimed specifically for extremely stubborn waterspots that has sat on paint a while and not your typical ones from car washing that can be removed with a damp MF.
> 
> Fusso is solvent heavy so applying a layer on top may have helped shift the first and create a more uniform layer with the 2nd application.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk


It is fine, I know you didn't mean anything towards me in a negative way. I'm just going to treat FSE as a chemical to be used only when needed for stubborn water spots as you've mentioned previously.

I certainly hope the second layer has gone on fine because of the solvents, as you mentioned previously. Anyway I buffed the reapplied Fusso off after 20 minutes of cure time. Had dried a little in a few places, but it all came off without much trouble. It rained around 28 hours after application and the beading matched the rest of the car. I took a few pictures. See attachments.


----------



## country boy (Feb 21, 2011)

Instead of removing the Fusso are you sure the FSE hasn't just masked it?


----------



## BradleyW (May 4, 2015)

country boy said:


> Instead of removing the Fusso are you sure the FSE hasn't just masked it?


I doubt it. It had been two weeks since I had used the FSE, and as far as I'm aware, it doesn't contain anything other than cleaning agents and a lime scale remover (No LSP).


----------



## country boy (Feb 21, 2011)

It definitely leaves a very slick surface and has beaded up whenever I have used it.


----------



## WristyManchego (Sep 9, 2018)

Throw 1% hydrochloric acid into Beadmaker and you have a brilliant water spot remover that leaves slickness.

I wouldn’t use any such product without a real need to remove water spots though.


----------



## BradleyW (May 4, 2015)

country boy said:


> It definitely leaves a very slick surface and has beaded up whenever I have used it.


Did you have an LSP already applied?



WristyManchego said:


> Throw 1% hydrochloric acid into Beadmaker and you have a brilliant water spot remover that leaves slickness.
> 
> I wouldn't use any such product without a real need to remove water spots though.


Interesting idea.


----------



## country boy (Feb 21, 2011)

BradleyW said:


> Did you have an LSP already applied?
> 
> Yes, can't remember what though.


----------



## BradleyW (May 4, 2015)

country boy said:


> BradleyW said:
> 
> 
> > Did you have an LSP already applied?
> ...


----------



## BradleyW (May 4, 2015)

Washed the car today (1 week after applying 2nd Fusso coat to bonnet and roof). The wax seemed completely unaffected and I avoided using any QD such as FSE. I just wiped the car dry. Will test in another week. I think the FSE was stripping it as people mentioned before.


----------



## Andyblue (Jun 20, 2017)

BradleyW said:


> Washed the car today (1 week after applying 2nd Fusso coat to bonnet and roof). The wax seemed completely unaffected and I avoided using any QD such as FSE. I just wiped the car dry. Will test in another week. I think the FSE was stripping it as people mentioned before.


Good to hear you think you've found the reason why now :thumb:


----------



## BradleyW (May 4, 2015)

Andyblue said:


> Good to hear you think you've found the reason why now :thumb:


I'm concerned about inducing swirls during the drying process without the use of FSE as a drying aid. I use a plush MF towel. Any tips? I've seen people pre-soak and ring out their drying towels before wiping, then following up with a dry clean buffing towel to gently wipe away any wiping marks left from the initial drying towel.


----------



## fatdazza (Dec 29, 2010)

BradleyW said:


> I'm concerned about inducing swirls during the drying process without the use of FSE as a drying aid. I use a plush MF towel. Any tips? I've seen people pre-soak and ring out their drying towels before wiping, then following up with a dry clean buffing towel to gently wipe away any wiping marks left from the initial drying towel.


drying towels work best when damp. No harm in also applying a bit of QD (not FSE!) to the damp towel to aid lubrication.


----------



## Andyblue (Jun 20, 2017)

BradleyW said:


> I'm concerned about inducing swirls during the drying process without the use of FSE as a drying aid. I use a plush MF towel. Any tips? I've seen people pre-soak and ring out their drying towels before wiping, then following up with a dry clean buffing towel to gently wipe away any wiping marks left from the initial drying towel.


As above really. I tend to use a variety of drying aids - like using AG Aqua wax - can be fussy if over applied (definitely less is best), use a 50/50 mix of AG Aqua wax and BSD - works very well, use a couple of DetailedOnline products as drying aids which work very well.


----------



## BradleyW (May 4, 2015)

Won't such QD's mask Fusso? Could do with a drying aid that lubricates without offering protection properties. I know Fusso do a barrier QD but it's a bit expensive for me. I do have Megs Quick QD which "might not" have protection. It came with a clay bar kit I purchased years ago.


----------



## WristyManchego (Sep 9, 2018)

BradleyW said:


> Won't such QD's mask Fusso? Could do with a drying aid that lubricates without offering protection properties. I know Fusso do a barrier QD but it's a bit expensive for me. I do have Megs Quick QD which "might not" have protection. It came with a clay bar kit I purchased years ago.


Every "quick detailer" will leave something behind, otherwise it would have no visual effect on your paintwork; a product not marketable.


----------



## BradleyW (May 4, 2015)

When the QD wears off, will the main wax underneath still show its properties or will it's characteristics be forever compromised? Cheers.


----------

