# Nurburgring Insurance and Myths



## Bero

Loyd just reading a few insurance related posts on pistonheads and wondered if you could help. Can you help explain the finer points for specific exclusions for the 'ring and how legal they are.....and if in threory you side swiped Veyron before pluming it into the back of a 250 GTO would it be 'knock for knock' or could they sue you personally for the £15,000,000 damage you just caused...or would your insurance company pick up the 3rd party costs? And vice versa if a 15yr old 530BMW runs into the back of you?



> BCA said:
> This is all, frankly, irrelevent to UK drivers in UK registered cars. The fact of the matter is, there are NO insurance companies out there - short of incredibly specialist brokers for higher end cars - that will cover driving on TF. They are all in breach of European law regarding the exclusion of what has been said in court to be a public road, but thier right to reclaim has also been allowed through the courts. If you are driving 99.9% of the cars that lap at the ring, you are almost certainly uninsured - I know of people with newer TVRs and Porsche GT3s that have cover currently, but even this is in doubt.
> 
> This is the key issue for brits, not camera useage. I am a diehard 'ring fan, I decided to go every year from the first trip, but cannot do so anymore with my own car for insurance reasons. Its a real disgrace, but I am afriad it is reality. The vast majority of UK registered cars lapping are completely uninsured - they are liable for any damage to the track/ other vehicles/ people. Chancers may think its fine, but you could very easily be faced with a bill that'll bankrupt you - how many of us could take the hit of say a GT2RS being written off?? TF is no-longer an option. Simple as that. UK insurers are to blame.
> Sad but absolutely true.
> I took a hard decision not to drive TF's anymore because frankly the thought of some dhead in a hot hatch overcooking it trying to overtake me on the wrong side , inconveniently dying in my vicinity and then me losing my car, house, family, shirt etc. in the resulting court case is scarier than a wet lap in an Atom. eek
> 
> I know of a case that was kept very quiet where the passenger in a second car died because another guy spun on oil (i.e. not his fault). The latter was rinsed by lawyers for everything he had with no insurance to back him up. Non disclosure of this stuff seems par for the course.
> 
> My advice: stick to properly organised trackdays at the ring where everyone has signed a bit of paper!
> 
> Take care folks!
> 
> havoc





> Mermaid said:
> Is it UK insurers genuinely concerned about the risks associated with the 'Ring, or is it the Gladiators unwilling to pay for the risks associated with driving at this potentially dangerous venue?
> UK insurers.
> 
> They refuse cover* (illegal under EU law), which becomes a real problem as under EU law they are OBLIGED to cover you (3P only, which is enough here to cover the crippling risks) on any public road in the EU, so under the 'double insurance' prohibition, you CANNOT get separate cover as your insurer allegedly already covers you.
> 
> Which means 99.9% of UK drivers CANNOT get cover for the ring, even if they're prepared to pay separately. Cannot. At all.
> 
> It is possible to get cover for any trackday in the UK or abroad through specialist insurers, as a road policy isn't lawfully obliged to cover this. But while the 'ring is a public road, not there.
> 
> * In reality they're obliged to provide cover but their small print says they won't accept liability and will reclaim from you all monies paid out. Small but important distinction.


Edit - added this: -


http://www.leeds-solicitors.com/nurburgring_insurance.html said:


> The Road Traffic Act 1988 prohibits a UK insurer from excluding minimum level cover anywhere in an EU member state in a place where insurance is mandatory. Any clause in an insurance policy seeking to exclude mandatory cover is of no effect. However, the cover required by law is minimum level cover. Therefore, third party only. If you require comprehensive cover then you should ask your insurance broker for this.


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## Murray

Not an expert here but in the small print in my motor insurance it states that I am not covered for motor testing, or track racing. The ring being a public road would have little bearing on that, just like I'm sure if I was in a crash on a main road and the old bill said I was having a drag race, my insurance company would take me to a table, bend me over and lube me up! (actually, they would probably do that at any given opportunity regardless!)


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## -Raven-

Great read! Would love to do the 'ring one day....


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## dalecyt

interesting read
hopefully going to try getting over to the ring this year or the next


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## griff-91

I heard a story once of a chap who went to the 'Ring and crashed, damaging 100 metres of the track. Obviously with that amount of damage, it's not going to buff out, but that's not my point. Apparently it's €1000 per *metre* that the driver damages.

Luckily he was insured, but still had to fork out £5,000 for the excess on the policy. And that's before taking into consideration the presumably scrap heap bound Porsche. Ouch.


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## Bero

Murray said:


> Not an expert here but in the small print in my motor insurance it states that I am not covered for motor testing, or track racing. The ring being a public road would have little bearing on that, just like I'm sure if I was in a crash on a main road and the old bill said I was having a drag race, my insurance company would take me to a table, bend me over and lube me up! (actually, they would probably do that at any given opportunity regardless!)


Yes - but _I believe_ they would still cover your 3rd party liability i.e. if you WERE drag racing and hit a £100,000 car at the next roundabout because you could not brake quick enough your insurance would, as a minimum cover the costs of you hitting someone....then they would probably forgo the lube before bending you over about the damage to your car as the 'fullycomp' part would not apply due to your negligence.



type[r]+ said:


> Great read! Would love to do the 'ring one day....


I'm booked to head over this year, so i've started looking into the finer details....i'm happy accepting some risk as long as i'm fully aware of it!


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## Pezza4u

There's an article in the latest track driver magazine about insurance for the ring, it's an interesting read. I'll try and scan it later if I remember.


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## Shiny

Lol, this is why i hate motor insurance!

I have no idea what TF is either?!?!

Insurers exclude the ring. If they are made to pay a THIRD PARTY claim under EU law (the same as they are often made to pay for uninsured drivers under UK RTA law by the MIB), as i understand it they have the right to seek their outlay from their customer as they were driving outside the cover of the policy.

This is pretty much what is says here - http://nurburgring.org.uk/insurance.html


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## Bero

TF = open day the public can tour the track (not a closed official 'track' day)


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## mattc

Well the last time I went to the 'ring I was insured on it as per a normal track day in the UK.

I was not covered for anyhting like the armco €1200 per section or being airlifted of the ring.


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## Ninja59

tbh beyond insurance atm the 'ring has some bigger problems to worry about....


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## nicp2007

some of the costs involved on hitting an armco are a little inflated here :lol:


here are the official costs of having a crash at the "ring"

Base fee for attendance of armco truck: €150
Removing damaged armco: €10/metre (x2 or x3 or x4 for multiple-height sections)
Replacement armco: €31/metre (x2 or x3 for double/triple height)
Removing damaged armco posts: €5.10 each
Replacing armco post: €39 each
Safety car attendance: €82 per 30 mins (car + 2 people)
Circuit closure: €1,350 per hour
Recovery truck: €190 (inc VAT)
Hospital stay & air ambulance: Let's just say, do NOT go there without travel insurance! (Though a European Health Card - which replaced the E111 - may cover the hospital bit.)
Everything except the recovery truck is then subject to 19% VAT.

The record armco bill I'm aware of is €15,000. That was a car that managed to flatten a very impressive length of armco between the Quiddlebacher Hohe bridge and the crest on the approach to Flugplatz. But even a minor bump can turn into a surprisingly expensive day out.


i have been goin for the past few years and will be there again in june :thumb:

tbh i have never eithen checked if i have insurance for the ring as i know most insurers will not cover me and also that most people on the track will not be covered either, so you go out on the track at your own risk,

i have spoke to people over there that have crashed and they have said the bills for repairing the track are the worst part, 

your best bet is DON'T CRASH just don't push yourself behond your limits :thumb:


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## AndyC

I did a lot of work on this issue last year following an accident which ended up on PH and AFAIK got very messy.

Simple answer is that EU Motor Insurance Law prevents any EU motor insurer from excluding The Ring during a public day; the track is designated as a derestricted toll road by definition under EU Law and as such standard motor cover applies. The exceptions are when the curcuit is being used for manufacturer tesring or motor racing when public access is removed.

I spoke with a number of mainstream UK motor insurers and most took the view that they would seek to avoid the lengthy and costly ramifications of suing their own policyholder in the event of a third party claim which they had to pay.

It's worth remembering that the percentage of UK-insured motorists for whom this is an issue is extremely low so many insurers will ask "The Nurburg-what??" and initially hide behind a trackday exclusion; for the Ring they cannot use this exclusion as they are then in breach of the aforementioned EU Law.


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## Shiny

Cheers for the clarification Andy. It's not something i have a need to go into great depth before so i have not actually addressed the issue with Insurers in the past. 

From what you have said and my own understanding of things, I think in summary the following will therefore apply -

1) Your Insurers will tell you are not covered
2) When it is defined as a toll road, EU law means that RTA cover will apply
3) RTA (in loose terms) = TPO Only, so regardless of anything your own damage WON'T be covered.
4) If you do have a claim, it is likely to get very messy and you will have to fight hard to get any Third Party damage/injury paid.
5) The Insurers potentially could seek reimbursement of any claim they have had to pay from their policyholder, but in reality this would be lengthy and costly (and the Insurers often don't like the bad press this type of action can attract) so the likelihood of this minimal. However, the is not guaranteed so there is still a possibility that they could come knocking on the policyholders door to get their money back.


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## Bero

Andy/Loyd - thanks for your input!



Shiny said:


> 1) Your Insurers will tell you are not covered
> 2) When it is defined as a toll road, EU law means that RTA cover will apply


I hate things like this. Your own insurer telling you blatant lies; you are paying them for their services which you will hopefully never need and they make a nice profit from.....and they tell you lies about something they are REQUIRED BY LAW to cover you for.

I appreciate telephone assistants may not be up to speed on the matter but they should be able to find out PDQ. Even if they explain you are technically covered but can be persued for the costs if they have to pay.


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## Shiny

It's not quite as simple as that. They are not covering you, usually because there is a specific exclusion relative to time trials etc within the policy. However, under European law they will be made pay the third party costs even though they are not covering it. This means that they will have the right of recourse against the policyholder for their costs.

The MIB often make insurers pay in the event of a road traffic accident even in the event where the policyholder was not insured. For example, if you non disclose modifications and run someone over, the Insurers will have to pay the third party injury claim under the RTA laws. However, the policy could then be made null and void due to the non disclosure of modifications and therefore they can then attempt to recover their claim costs from the policyholder.


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## AndyC

You should also bear in mind that most insurers won't have a scooby about what the Ring actually is anyway. Sounds rude but it's the truth so someone telling you in ignorance that you aren't covered is IMO a fair mistake.

My own view is that an insurer should ask at inception "will you drive your car on the Nurburgring?" and then they can make a decision as to whether to offer you any cover whatsoever or decline and ask you to place your cover elsewhere. Again, for 99% of the motoring population would answer "no" honestly.

That said, I'm pretty certain an insurer can't decline to provide cover required under EU Law without another legitimate reason to say "no" but I stand to be corrected.

Excluding a trackday under the "no timetrials" exclusion doesn't work - I speak from bitter experience following a £100k+ accident involving an F40 15-odd years ago - I told the owner no cover and his solicitor rang me back 10 minutes later and rode a racehorse through the exclusion. I had the last laugh some years later but too longwinded for here!


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## Kev_mk3

Simple fact is IF you can get special insurance for the ring (which its bloody hard to now anyway) most are 3rd party only and have that many clauses its pathetic so basically not worth it, hence ive given up and stick to closed track days at the ring now as there safer IMO and insurance is then sorted as its a track day (yes i get special insurance)


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## Shiny

AndyC, i was looking this morning through the Admiral wording for someone on the Accord forum re a claim and i noticed they specifically mention the ring as an exclusion.

www.admiral.com/policyDocs/ADM.pdf - General Exceptions page 20.

At the bottom of page 22 it then clearly states that they will pay any TP claim under the provisions of the law, but the policyholder must then repay the Insurers any payments that would not have been made due to to policy exclusions had the law not been in place.

Not worth risking in my opinion.


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## gkerr4

AndyC said:


> Excluding a trackday under the "no timetrials" exclusion doesn't work - I speak from bitter experience following a £100k+ accident involving an F40 15-odd years ago - I told the owner no cover and his solicitor rang me back 10 minutes later and rode a racehorse through the exclusion. I had the last laugh some years later but too longwinded for here!


slightly off topic - but I am dying to know more about this!!


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## Bero

Shiny said:


> At the bottom of page 22 it then clearly states that they will pay any TP claim under the provisions of the law, but the policyholder must then repay the Insurers any payments that would not have been made due to to policy exclusions had the law not been in place.


Interesting, i'm skeptical on the enforcability of such a clause though. I don't see how they can have a clause that basicly lets them dodge their responsability under law. Could be an unfair contract therefore unenforcable? Then again i'm just speaking from my limited knowledge of commercial contracts.

Anyway i agree it would turn into a major PITA and expensive to fight......it's not going to stop me going....I just want to understand the possibilities.


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## AndyC

Shiny said:


> AndyC, i was looking this morning through the Admiral wording for someone on the Accord forum re a claim and i noticed they specifically mention the ring as an exclusion.
> 
> www.admiral.com/policyDocs/ADM.pdf - General Exceptions page 20.
> 
> At the bottom of page 22 it then clearly states that they will pay any TP claim under the provisions of the law, but the policyholder must then repay the Insurers any payments that would not have been made due to to policy exclusions had the law not been in place.
> 
> Not worth risking in my opinion.


Agreed - Admiral put that in some years back as the old man was insured through them and asked me about "trackday exclusions" - fell of my chair as the thought of my Dad on a track under any circumstances is pretty funny.



gkerr4 said:


> slightly off topic - but I am dying to know more about this!!


Short version - the client naffed off to another broker the following year; my company was acquired by a big US broker, who subsequently bought the broker he went to; we then discovered that he'd not declared the £100k + claim and he was shown the door as a result :thumb:



Bero said:


> Interesting, i'm skeptical on the enforcability of such a clause though. I don't see how they can have a clause that basicly lets them dodge their responsability under law. Could be an unfair contract therefore unenforcable? Then again i'm just speaking from my limited knowledge of commercial contracts.
> 
> Anyway i agree it would turn into a major PITA and expensive to fight......it's not going to stop me going....I just want to understand the possibilities.


Tricky one and as referred to before, may fall foul of the EU legislation governing the issue of TP cover in member countries. As with anything specialist-insurance related, find a good broker and get the right guidance. Mainstream, direct insurers are IMHO not ideal for this and rarely seek out non-standard stuff anyway. As Lloyd says there are a good number of specialist trackday insurers/brokers floating around now who are ideally placed to advise.


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## gkerr4

AndyC said:


> Short version - the client naffed off to another broker the following year; my company was acquired by a big US broker, who subsequently bought the broker he went to; we then discovered that he'd not declared the £100k + claim and he was shown the door as a result :thumb:


Sorry - no I meant the F40 accident

about 15 years ago... I was at a ferrari owners club day at knockhill - there was a very special F40 LM edition on track - a very high performance car - it's french owner had a formula 3000 (or eqiuvalent at the time) driver over to drive the car and take the owner and his mates around the circuit - it ended up backways-first into the tyre wall at corner 1 - Ooops..

just curious, cos there can't have been 'that' many £100k F40 'incidents' in that sort of time frame!


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## AndyC

Oulton Park mate from memory and it wasn't an LM for definite. Only 1 or 2 of them in the UK AFAIK - very special car indeed!


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## Shiny

AndyC said:


> Short version - the client naffed off to another broker the following year; my company was acquired by a big US broker, who subsequently bought the broker he went to; we then discovered that he'd not declared the £100k + claim and he was shown the door as a result :thumb:


Andy, we've just had the CUE system linked up with up with our quote engine, I believe Coversure are the first Brokers to have it on their system :thumb:

Not that we do a massive amount of car insurance, but already we've lost count of how many times we hear "Oh yeah, i forgot about that one..."


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## nickfrog

Always wanted to do the Ring...after much consideration though I stick to my mini-ring, Bedford Autodrome. No contest of course but much easier / cheaper / safer...


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## gkerr4

AndyC said:


> Oulton Park mate from memory and it wasn't an LM for definite. Only 1 or 2 of them in the UK AFAIK - very special car indeed!


indeed - which is why i wondered if it might have been the same - ah well - curious that perhaps both of the UK ones are wrecked! - in fairness, the one I saw coming off backwards first into the tyres would almost certainly have been repairable - but I dread to think what the bill would have been.

and I was lucky to have got a couple of laps in as a passenger before it went to the wall - an awesome experience!


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