# LSP fail?



## great gonzo (Nov 4, 2010)

I was messing around with BH Douldle Speed Wax and Menzerna Power lock a few months ago and one has completely gone!!!
I just can't remember what side of my van I did with what product arrrrhhhh. 

I have just washed it after about 10 weeks and one side has no beading or sheeting and actually need a paint cleaner to remove some stains that the wash didn't remove, any thoughts which one has given up?
My guess is the power lock but who knows?
It was one coat of each applied only on very good prep. 

Gonz.


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## fozzy (Oct 22, 2009)

I would have thought the Power lock would outlast the wax even though BH DS has a great rep. I used to put the Menz on almost every correction I did a few years ago and it lasted ages. get your picks dug out to find out for sure


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## great gonzo (Nov 4, 2010)

Arrrrhhh no pics unfortunately. 


Gonz.


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## Wilco (Apr 22, 2010)

100% powerlock. One of the few products I've tried and hated tbh. It didn't offer anything at all protection wise when i used it.


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## great gonzo (Nov 4, 2010)

Two very conflicting replies!!

Gonz.


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## fozzy (Oct 22, 2009)

great gonzo said:


> Two very conflicting replies!!
> 
> Gonz.


Ain't there always. :thumb:

I only ever used it on freshly corrected clean paint and not as a maintenance LSP but never had any issues. It is about 2 years since I last popped the bottle open though.


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## great gonzo (Nov 4, 2010)

I have always loved Powerlock, recently used it on a red mini I detailed a few weeks ago and it looked great. Just interested which had failed after only a short duration. 

Looks like I will have to have another go. To say one has failed is an understatement too no protection at all on one side. 

Gonz.


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## fozzy (Oct 22, 2009)

I've had it happen to me before Gonz on some Very well regarded products too, yet the next time they were used they were brilliant. Don't figure.


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## great gonzo (Nov 4, 2010)

Right!!
Test number 2!!!
This time with photography evidence.



Two coats each 3 hours apart.

The winner is going up against either dodos supernatural or infinity wax glass canopy

Gonz.


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## MAXI-MILAN (Oct 26, 2008)

Btw I found Menzerna Power lock protection became very week when the bottle became +2 years old


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## great gonzo (Nov 4, 2010)

MAXI-MILAN said:


> Btw I found Menzerna Power lock protection became very week when the bottle became +2 years old


That's intresting as mine is over two years old.

Gonz.


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## Kimo (Jun 7, 2013)

Why would you test against dodo supernatural?

That doesn't last 5 minutes as it is


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## great gonzo (Nov 4, 2010)

Kimo said:


> Why would you test against dodo supernatural?
> 
> That doesn't last 5 minutes as it is


We will see. 
It's actually supernatural hybrid I'm referring to.

Gonz.


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## MAXI-MILAN (Oct 26, 2008)

great gonzo said:


> That's intresting as mine is over two years old.
> 
> Gonz.


I think beacuse my menz became watery even after shake the bottle .


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## Wilco (Apr 22, 2010)

Mine was like that when it was new, I just assumed that's how it was supposed to be.


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## great gonzo (Nov 4, 2010)

MAXI-MILAN said:


> I think beacuse my menz became watery even after shake the bottle .


It is fairly thin, I wouldn't say wastery tho. I could still apply pea shaped blobs to my applicator.

Gonz.


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## great gonzo (Nov 4, 2010)

Well the Powerlock isn't looking that clever after just two days.



Will keep an eye on it tho as its more of a sheeter than a beader, time will tell

Double speed wax looking great with very good beading.



Gonz.


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## Surrey Sam (Dec 29, 2008)

For both, how many layers and how did you apply them?


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## great gonzo (Nov 4, 2010)

Surrey Sam said:


> For both, how many layers and how did you apply them?


Two coats of each 3 hours apart on polished paint and panel wiped.

Gonz.


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## Mikesphotaes (Jul 24, 2016)

Washing your car after 10 weeks seems a wee bit lazy?:detailer:


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## great gonzo (Nov 4, 2010)

Mikesphotaes said:


> Washing your car after 10 weeks seems a wee bit lazy?:detailer:


Very judgemental!!

If you knew me you couldn't be further from the truth. Lol.

It's on my work van, the reason it gets sealed is for this very reason to protect the paint that doesn't get washed weekly like my car.

Gonz.


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## fozzy (Oct 22, 2009)

great gonzo said:


> Very judgemental!!
> 
> Gonz.


LMAO :lol:


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## Surrey Sam (Dec 29, 2008)

great gonzo said:


> Two coats of each 3 hours apart on polished paint and panel wiped.
> 
> Gonz.


Cheers, I presume it was done by hand?

I found Powerlock was marginally better when applied by DA with 24 hours between layers. Will be interested to see how the two compare given time and agree that it sheets, more than it beads.


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## streaky (Dec 2, 2006)

Mikesphotaes said:


> Washing your car after 10 weeks seems a wee bit lazy?:detailer:


aah bless, you've been here nearly two whole months :buffer:


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## great gonzo (Nov 4, 2010)

Surrey Sam said:


> Cheers, I presume it was done by hand?
> 
> I found Powerlock was marginally better when applied by DA with 24 hours between layers. Will be interested to how see the two compare given time and agree that it sheets, more than it beads.


Yeah by hand,not practical for me to have to apply the next day but does say on the bottle you can reapply after 3 hours so I followed that. 
I have a feeling the DSW is going to smash the Powerlock

Gonz.


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## Surrey Sam (Dec 29, 2008)

Yes I'm inclined to agree. 

In its defence, I do think that it adds more to the darker gamut of colours but the longevity is certainly shorter than anticipated.

I've been meaning to test it against CP Reload.


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## great gonzo (Nov 4, 2010)

Surrey Sam said:


> Yes I'm inclined to agree.
> 
> In its defence, I do think that it adds more to the darker gamut of colours but the longevity is certainly shorter than anticipated.
> 
> I've been meaning to test it against CP Reload.


Powerlock on this mining did a little while ago was stunning but I'm worried now on its durability.



Gonz.


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## chongo (Jun 7, 2014)

Mikesphotaes said:


> Washing your car after 10 weeks seems a wee bit lazy?:detailer:


Well said shame on you gonzo:lol:
Now don't do that again


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## great gonzo (Nov 4, 2010)

chongo said:


> Well said shame on you gonzo:lol:
> Now don't do that again


I feel shamed.

Gonz.


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## chongo (Jun 7, 2014)

great gonzo said:


> I feel shamed.
> 
> Gonz.


Now go and say 10 Hail Marys 
I must wash my van every day:detailer::lol:


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## AndyA4TDI (May 7, 2012)

chongo said:


> Now go and say 10 Hail Marys
> I must wash my van every day:detailer::lol:


I used to think very highly of Gonz, I am so disappointed in him, 😂


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## great gonzo (Nov 4, 2010)

After my short drive to the train station this morning the passenger side (Powerlock side) did not sheet off the early morning dew. 
Not a great photo really hard to capture what's going on with white.



Gonz.


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## great gonzo (Nov 4, 2010)

Could of been down to where it was parked over night as one side was a bit more shaded so will keep this updated.


Gonz.


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## suds (Apr 27, 2012)

great gonzo said:


> I feel shamed.
> 
> Gonz.


Awwww Gonz - the answer's obvious! Look It's not that you can't remember which product went on which side mate. If you forget to wash your van for 10 weeks it's more likely you forgot to put one of the products on as well . You're just getting too long in the beak my dear.:tumbleweed:


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## great gonzo (Nov 4, 2010)

suds said:


> Awwww Gonz - the answer's obvious! Look It's not that you can't remember which product went on which side mate. If you forget to wash your van for 10 weeks it's more likely you forgot to put one of the products on as well . You're just getting too long in the beak my dear.:tumbleweed:


Go on just call me old and get it over and done with.

Gonz v


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## fozzy (Oct 22, 2009)

Your OLD :tumbleweed:

Watching the updates with interest Gonz


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## great gonzo (Nov 4, 2010)

fozzy said:


> Your OLD :tumbleweed:
> 
> Watching the updates with interest Gonz


It's nice to know someone is!!!

Gonz.


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## suds (Apr 27, 2012)

fozzy said:


> Your OLD :tumbleweed:
> 
> Watching the updates with interest Gonz


There you go Gonz- that's 3 of us. Reckon we should ask for a group buy on.... Erm.... What was it?


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## suds (Apr 27, 2012)

great gonzo said:


> Go on just call me old and get it over and done with.
> 
> Gonz v


GONZ V!!!! Is that Roman numerals for 2 fingers? :doublesho


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## great gonzo (Nov 4, 2010)

suds said:


> GONZ V!!!! Is that Roman numerals for 2 fingers? :doublesho


Haha you are looking to deep Suds, that's just my fat fingers stabbing away on a small iPhone.

Gonz.


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## cargainz (Jul 25, 2016)

great gonzo said:


> Powerlock on this mining did a little while ago was stunning but I'm worried now on its durability.
> 
> 
> 
> Gonz.


Nice Mini.

It wouldn't help that the powerlock is over two years old (potentially exposed to the elements and might not have been shaken properly before use). Do you give powerlock a good shake before you use it? :buffer:


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## great gonzo (Nov 4, 2010)

Yes got a good shake before use. Always stored in a dry cool environment with no Iv light on it. They come in such a big pot I can't see how you could possibly use it all in two years unless you are a pro using it everyday. 

Gonz.


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## great gonzo (Nov 4, 2010)

A little up date on this thread.

It's been 3 months since the DSW and Powerlock was applied, its had a few wash and TBH the DSW really beaded well with the powerlock really lacking with beading and sheeting. 
BUT when ever I looked at the PL side it always looked slightly cleaner!!

Some proof of what I'm taking about.



I will report back after a wash this weekend to see if either are still doing anything.

Gonz.


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## Citygo (Jan 13, 2014)

Gonzo that's a huge difference


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## great gonzo (Nov 4, 2010)

I know I'm really surprised, I thought the wax would be far more superior. 

Gonz.


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## cargainz (Jul 25, 2016)

If Double Speed Wax is still beading after 3 months and Powerlock is on its last legs as far as beading/sheeting then it would beat my expectation because you would think a polymer sealant would beat a hybrid pants down.

Perhaps the polymers in Powerlock are similar to the ones in QDs which protect you for circa 2 months?


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## great gonzo (Nov 4, 2010)

The beading and sheeting of the powerlock dropped off massively after about 3 weeks but still kept the paint cleaner than the DSW strangely???


Gonz.


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## Bod42 (Jun 4, 2009)

This proves that there is definitely some truth behind manufactures saying that beading isn't a guaranteed way of checking LSP failure.


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## great gonzo (Nov 4, 2010)

Bod42 said:


> This proves that there is definitely some truth behind manufactures saying that beading isn't a guaranteed way of checking LSP failure.


Exactly!!! The idea of beading is to capsulate the water and dirt and roll off to keep the paint cleaner longer, but in this case it couldn't beat the non beading slow sheeting powerlock.

Gonz.


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## streaky (Dec 2, 2006)

great gonzo said:


> A little up date on this thread.
> 
> It's been 3 months since the DSW and Powerlock was applied, its had a few wash and TBH the DSW really beaded well with the powerlock really lacking with beading and sheeting.
> BUT when ever I looked at the PL side it always looked slightly cleaner!!
> ...


That really is noticeable


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## great gonzo (Nov 4, 2010)

I've read in the past that sealants keep paint cleaner than waxes but never really believed it till now. 
I will be interested to see if both sides clean off ok after a wash.


Gonz.


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## Mikesphotaes (Jul 24, 2016)

I think you mixed up your sides :lol:


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## steelghost (Aug 20, 2015)

At a microscopic level the films formed by wax and sealants are quite different - so it's maybe not surprising that dirt sticks more to one than the other, water behaviour notwithstanding.


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## Mikesphotaes (Jul 24, 2016)

Seriously though, that is quite a dramatic difference.

Maybe it means that all this beading stuff is old hat?


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## armufti (Oct 11, 2016)

Mikesphotaes said:


> Seriously though, that is quite a dramatic difference.
> 
> Maybe it means that all this beading stuff is old hat?


I've always wondered this too. Surely sheeting is better than beading as it would have a steeper hydrophobic angle versus a water bead?

Sent from my SM-N910C using Tapatalk


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## cargainz (Jul 25, 2016)

The dirt should come off quickly on the waxed side. I would retest the powerlock side as 3 weeks of sheeting is shocking. Its like the dealer applied protection they want you to pay £500 for and in a few weeks its gone.


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## great gonzo (Nov 4, 2010)

cargainz said:


> The dirt should come off quickly on the waxed side. I would retest the powerlock side as 3 weeks of sheeting is shocking. Its like the dealer applied protection they want you to pay £500 for and in a few weeks its gone.


This is the second time I have tested!!!
Although the sheeting drops off it still keeps it cleaner than the waxed size.

Gonz.


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## steelghost (Aug 20, 2015)

For me this comes back to the question of why do we bother with LSPs?

For some, it's about the look, and not much else. For others, it's about keeping a vehicle protected, and as long as the paint is clean and shiny, they're not worrying too much about depth, gloss, jetting and so on.

A lot of the muck that sticks to cars is not actually water soluble - mostly a mixture of tiny drops of old engine oil and spilt diesel and tiny particles of tire rubber and carbon black. Being an oily film it will bond preferentially to waxes which are, when it comes to it, saturated hydrocarbons. Once these little bits of muck stick on it creates a rougher, slightly sticky surface which is more likely to hold onto any additional dirt. Notwithstanding this, the wax will keep beading water, but this doesn't actually help wash non-water soluble contaminants off.

Sealants are typically crosslinked polymers which are smoother at a microscopic level, and also less attractive to road film because they have fewer saturated carbon groups. Typically less hyrophobic than waxes they sheet water, this will avoid water spotting and may keep dust accumulation down, but I think the main reason they keep paint cleaner is they are less attractive to oily road film.

Both classes of LSP do the important thing however of making it easy to remove the road film from their surfaces when washing (and we all know it's much easier to get a protected car clean, than an unprotected one) - this effect is slight enough that it's only noticed over time on an unwashed surface.


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## Bilt-Hamber Lab (Apr 11, 2008)

Paint films are rough at a microscopic scale, waxes are able to fill and level these surfaces – however the film imparted is low surface tension – this causes water beading. Dirt and debris carried by water tends to be pulled in agglomerations by water during the beading process leaving discreet deposits – rather than a flatter-looking matt, uniform result on un-waxed or non-low surface tension finish. However, the point is that the paint film itself has its imperfections full of wax/polymer film ensuing it’s protected. Un-waxed paint films or ones where the low surface tension has failed will look cleaner but will have their pits and troughs full of foreign matter. Worse still is that these pits can be fully wetted (and on really oxidized paint almost become absorbent) and allow the paint to be further damaged by the freeze-thaw process. We’ve seen paint osmotically pulling water below the film, blister the paint – the blister full of water freezes – burst paint film! Wax stopes this dead.

The wax will also make the cleaning process, particularly with pre-wash / snow foaming, very easy and successful and produce a result far better than one not waxed.


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## great gonzo (Nov 4, 2010)

I get the above and I'm not knocking the wax as I use it a lot, but I'm not comparing it to an unwaxed surface it has a sealant on the other side which has kept the paint a lot cleaner. Let's see what each side is like after a wash as to weather there's any need to use a paint cleaner to bring back the gloss or just a shampoo will be enough. 


Gonz.


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## Bod42 (Jun 4, 2009)

Gonzo. Sounds like the next test should be a wax vs an unwaxed surface to see if you get the same results. 

Now that would be an eye opener that bare paint stays cleaner longer.


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## dax (Dec 9, 2016)

First of excuses as this is my first post/comment, i'll introduce myself in the right topic. 

Bare paint may stay cleaner than waxed paint in the beginning, but when dirt has filled the bare paint's 'pores' the cleanliness is ended and a clay-bar and cleanser polish is needed to get the grime out. I think a sealant stays cleaner than a wax because the natural oil(s)in the wax attract dirt more than the synthetic ingredients in a sealant. Oil is fat and that's like a magnet for dust and grime!


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