# What Makes a 'Hot Hatch' a Hot Hatch?



## Derekh929 (Aug 28, 2011)

following on from super car one, so for me a hot hatch can be from a MK1 GTI to Hyundai I30N.

For me it needs to have a look at me attitude and stand out from makers main stream models, with good drive train and chassis and be fun and entertaining on a B road blast.

So what's a hot hatch for you and what it needs to have for example is a Up GTI a hot hatch? and can this be seen in the same category as say A45 merc or is the merc and Golf R a Hot hatch + my new category that I will be trade marking this week:thumb:


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## muzzer (Feb 13, 2011)

for me a Hot hatch is one that is significantly upgraded performance wise over the other models in the line up.
So yes, an Up! GTi is a hot hatch in my eyes.


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## Derekh929 (Aug 28, 2011)

muzzer said:


> for me a Hot hatch is one that is significantly upgraded performance wise over the other models in the line up.
> So yes, an Up! GTi is a hot hatch in my eyes.


Yes I think the UP GTI might well be harking back to small nimble fun hatch theory thaqt worked well in the 80's with pug 205gti etc


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## muzzer (Feb 13, 2011)

Derekh929 said:


> Yes I think the UP GTI might well be harking back to small nimble fun hatch theory thaqt worked well in the 80's with pug 205gti etc


See the Fiat Panda 100HP :driver:


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## Derekh929 (Aug 28, 2011)

muzzer said:


> See the Fiat Panda 100HP :driver:


:lol: I know the panda can be fun but that might just be stretching the hot hatch criteria to the limit, although on a trip to Italy it served us well, all be it my son thought the car was hilarious at times with me at the wheel and kept taking pics of it


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## andy665 (Nov 1, 2005)

Sure most automotive marketing departments would say its a pop and bang exhaust and a headline grabbing 0-60 or "Ring" lap time

To me a hot hatch is a car that has a clear focus on performance, grip, poise, adjustability, sound that come together in such a way that you choose to take the B road rather than the A road

Does not have to be the fastest from A to B but definitely has to be able to put a smile on my face

Probably I'm a real dinosaur but the constant power chasing of most manufacturers leaves me cold as they have forgotten about FUN - maybe with the exception of Ford (Fiesta ST), Hyundai (i30N), Abarth (Competzione) and VW (Up! GTi)


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## Derekh929 (Aug 28, 2011)

andy665 said:


> Sure most automotive marketing departments would say its a pop and bang exhaust and a headline grabbing 0-60 or "Ring" lap time
> 
> To me a hot hatch is a car that has a clear focus on performance, grip, poise, adjustability, sound that come together in such a way that you choose to take the B road rather than the A road
> 
> ...


Yes the fiesta is right up there even the red edition my son has 140bhp great balance car with great turn in the perfect balance on a B road with bumps as passive suspension just bang on.
I'm would try the wife to get the new fiesta ST to replace the JCW but very little change of that so I may need to consider getting one in the future.
I just hope the I30N becomes the bargain used hatch of the future


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## muzzer (Feb 13, 2011)

Derekh929 said:


> :lol: I know the panda can be fun but that might just be stretching the hot hatch criteria to the limit, although on a trip to Italy it served us well, all be it my son thought the car was hilarious at times with me at the wheel and kept taking pics of it


Maybe but they are hilarious fun to push hard across country. I once borrowed one for a hoon round the North Yorks Moors and i was able to exploit almost all of it's performance. If i tried that in my GTi, i'd be wearing a significant part of the scenery.

Plus, compared to the standard Panda, it was a Hot version. For me that's the very definition of a hot hatch


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## SteveTDCi (Feb 8, 2006)

The UP! Gti is a luke warm hatch. Over time i think the roll of the hot hatch has changed. They should be as a minimum Fiesta size, as a maximum Focus size.

In the 80's they needed to have body hugging seats and bodykits with strips and spoilers - Ford XR's

In the 90's it moved to being about handling and styling took a back seat - Clio Williams and 205 GTi

In the 00's it seemed to be a bit of both 306GTi 6, Golf GTi MkV

Now its about ring times although that seems to have started to wear off and its becoming more about B road blasts - Fiesta ST


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## cloughy (Feb 12, 2012)

UP Gti definitely a hot hatch and arguably more fun in the real world than the 300bhp plus options


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## Derekh929 (Aug 28, 2011)

cloughy said:


> UP Gti definitely a hot hatch and arguably more fun in the real world than the 300bhp plus options


Well I will need to have a drive in one back to back with fiesta ST to see what I think of them:thumb:


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## possul (Nov 14, 2008)

The up!, Renault twingo, fiat 500 etc are not hot hatchbacks 
By today's standards surely they are Hot city cars


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## cloughy (Feb 12, 2012)

Derekh929 said:


> Well I will need to have a drive in one back to back with fiesta ST to see what I think of them:thumb:


Think the pop and bangs from the fiesta will be hard not to love!


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## AndyN01 (Feb 16, 2016)

The original 1960's Mini Cooper S.

Opps, sorry. that's not a hatchback. :lol:

Andy.


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## Derekh929 (Aug 28, 2011)

AndyN01 said:


> The original 1960's Mini Cooper S.
> 
> Opps, sorry. that's not a hatchback. :lol:
> 
> Andy.


I'm sure on wheeler dealers that could be fixed for you:lol:


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## Derekh929 (Aug 28, 2011)

possul said:


> The up!, Renault twingo, fiat 500 etc are not hot hatchbacks
> By today's standards surely they are Hot city cars


That's a very good point, that I tend to agree with know its been pointed out, but I bet some are as big if not bigger than the original hot hatches for sure.


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## Kenan (Sep 7, 2015)

Was a hot hatch not just a standard car they lumped a bigger engine into?

Most my cars have been hot hatches and then the newer models are more hyper hatch's for the 300+ club

Sent from my Mi A1 using Tapatalk


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## Derekh929 (Aug 28, 2011)

Kenan said:


> Was a hot hatch not just a standard car they lumped a bigger engine into?
> 
> Most my cars have been hot hatches and then the newer models are more hyper hatch's for the 300+ club
> 
> Sent from my Mi A1 using Tapatalk


So what you had in past so the DW members can pass judgement:thumb:

Oh I'm liking the Hyper hatch rather than my Hot Hatch+

So with all the different car categories we have know I propose after this thread a new way forward.

City Car Hot Hatch

Fait 500 Abarth

Hot Hatch

Fiesta ST

Hot Hatch +

Megane RS

Hyper Hatch

New A45 merc

So come on guys n girls fill in the cars you think are it each section , I have added 1 example I think for each


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## SBM (Jul 4, 2013)

I am not sure about a Hyper Hatch??

City Hot Hatch = Up GTi

Hot Hatch = Gotta be the Fiesta ST (new one)

For me the Hot Hatch + = Honda Civic Type R GT

If I had to say Hyper Hatch, I would say RS3

Good thread op !!


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## Derekh929 (Aug 28, 2011)

SBM said:


> I am not sure about a Hyper Hatch??
> 
> City Hot Hatch = Up GTi
> 
> ...


Yeh maybe that member got me carried away with this hyper Hatch malarkey I may have to remove or re think that one:lol:

how about Super Hot Hatch?


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## Kyle 86 (Jun 15, 2013)

Fiesta ST and abarth 500s and R.S clios are regarded as super minis

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## TomCatUK (Oct 4, 2018)

SBM said:


> I am not sure about a Hyper Hatch??
> 
> City Hot Hatch = Up GTi
> 
> ...


The new civic is hardly a hatch anymore, is bigger then my Evo!!

The fk2 is certainly one. I'm seriously tempted by one!


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## Kenan (Sep 7, 2015)

Derekh929 said:


> So what you had in past so the DW members can pass judgement:thumb:


In order of ownership
205 GTi 1.6
205 GTi 1.9 the MI16 then 1.9 on carbs
Nissan sunny/pulsar GTI-R
Peugeot 306 Rallye - Current car

Looking to get a Seat Leon Cupra next, which I think still fits in the Hot Hatch camp

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## SteveTDCi (Feb 8, 2006)

Kenan said:


> In order of ownership
> 205 GTi 1.6
> 205 GTi 1.9 the MI16 then 1.9 on carbs
> Nissan sunny/pulsar GTI-R
> ...


All of those are hot hatches :thumb:

There is no such thing as a city car hot hatch, its hot hatch and nothing else


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## Starbuck88 (Nov 12, 2013)

I had a 207 GTi, I absolutely loved it. 

I guess the old hot hatches are now Warm hatches thanks for BMW M1 and Merc AMG stuff?


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## Derekh929 (Aug 28, 2011)

Kenan said:


> In order of ownership
> 205 GTi 1.6
> 205 GTi 1.9 the MI16 then 1.9 on carbs
> Nissan sunny/pulsar GTI-R
> ...


Yes all in Hot Hatch for me, I had a 309gti in the early 90's do I get in with that?


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## TomCatUK (Oct 4, 2018)

Kenan said:


> In order of ownership
> 205 GTi 1.6
> 205 GTi 1.9 the MI16 then 1.9 on carbs
> Nissan sunny/pulsar GTI-R
> ...


I went to look at a 205gti at the weekend. Couldn't justify buying it to the missus though.


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## SBM (Jul 4, 2013)

TomCatUK said:


> I went to look at a 205gti at the weekend. Couldn't justify buying it to the missus though.


How much were they asking Tomcat?


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## SBM (Jul 4, 2013)

Derekh929 said:


> Yeh maybe that member got me carried away with this hyper Hatch malarkey I may have to remove or re think that one:lol:
> 
> how about Super Hot Hatch?


Sounds good! :lol:


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## TomCatUK (Oct 4, 2018)

SBM said:


> How much were they asking Tomcat?


I'll see if I can find th advert. It wasnt a huge amount but needed a lot of work (a new rear beam at the minimum)

Edit: £5k, alot more than I remembered.


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## Alex_225 (Feb 7, 2008)

I suppose I look at what constituted the old school type of hot hatch. 

Moderate power, lightweight and excellent handling. 

When you look at that criteria you'd probably consider the likes of an RS Twingo 133 or Fiat 500 Abarth to tick those boxes. Closer to the likes of a MKI Golf GTI or Renault 5 GT Turbo. 

Understandably cars have moved on and technically the likes of a Mercedes A45 or Audi RS3 are hot hatches, because they're fast version of hatch backs. The irony being that they're not that light, they're probably bigger than the saloons of the 80s era hot hatches and they're not affordable to the average person. Hyper Hatch is probably a better term for them as they're more up there with the likes of the older AWD fast saloons like the Mitsubishi Evo and Subaru Impreza! 

For me, lightweight, moderate power, great handling, cheap to buy/own and manual.


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## cloughy (Feb 12, 2012)

Alex_225 said:


> For me, lightweight, moderate power, great handling, cheap to buy/own and manual.


^^^this


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## Andy1972 (Jan 12, 2014)

When VW basically invented the genre with the Mk1 golf in the late 70’s it was successful for two reasons – it was fun to drive but more importantly it was also affordable. Other manufacturers jumped on the bandwagon and followed the same rules, eg 205 GTi…. Something a young professional could afford.

Citroen then brought it down a level to include your average 20’s something with the AX GT and later the saxo VTR/S. Hence why they were so popular.

There was still a market for the higher price hot hatch, ie RS turbos’, Astra GTE 16V, Golf GTI 16V etc and then also the super saloons for the young professional who now grown out of his 205Gti…. In stepped the sapphire Cosworth, cavalier/calibra Turbo.

Then the TWOC’ing got insane and people couldn’t afford to insure the cars anymore. Sales fell and so with it manufacturers efforts to continue making them.

Then came the early 2000’ era of totally pants boring ‘warm hatches’. The golf became fat and slow, the RS’s disappeared and in stepped the dull XR3’I reborn. It was a real fall from height for the hot hatch.

Now things have settled and cars like the VXR range appeared, battling with newly reborn GTI brand with its 2.0T engine. Other manufacturers joined in again and now we are starting to get back again and manufacturers are falling over themselves to be the next big thing.

The only problem now is that the affordability seems to have ben forgotten. Golfs are now the price of some executive cars and the best of the best hatches are now in ‘mid life crisis’ realm of affordability. The hot hatch is still there, but not in the same demographic as the original itineration’s or vision.


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## mar00 (Jun 24, 2018)

i don't think anything now is a hot hatch as in the original form, they are just full of gadgets and pointless crap, even the fiesta is now about the size of a golf from the 80's and weighs nearly 1300KG, but it is a really good car still and probably the closest with the pug 208 gti,

but even with all the electronics and over 300bhp they're still not much quicker than the 80-90 stuff, i also had a Pulsar GTIR in standard form 227 bhp it was just over 5 sec to 60, no understeer either, also had a Mazda 323 4x4 turbo, nowhere near as quick but great handling and grip


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## Kenan (Sep 7, 2015)

Derekh929 said:


> Yes all in Hot Hatch for me, I had a 309gti in the early 90's do I get in with that?


I'd say so, 309 is argued to be a better balanced car than the 205 

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## Kenan (Sep 7, 2015)

mar00 said:


> but even with all the electronics and over 300bhp they're still not much quicker than the 80-90 stuff, i also had a Pulsar GTIR in standard form 227 bhp it was just over 5 sec to 60, no understeer either, also had a Mazda 323 4x4 turbo, nowhere near as quick but great handling and grip


How did the Mazda compare to the Pulsar? Never got to see a Mazda in the flesh

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## mar00 (Jun 24, 2018)

Kenan said:


> How did the Mazda compare to the Pulsar? Never got to see a Mazda in the flesh
> 
> Sent from my Mi A1 using Tapatalk


was only 500 mazda 323 4x4 in UK, as i said no where near on power or acceleration but probably better handling in standard form and neutral steering so with no electronics you could make it do what you wanted, both had really good 4x4 50/50 systems for the time and better than most now even though mechanical systems,


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## pt1 (Feb 8, 2014)

Alex_225 said:


> I suppose I look at what constituted the old school type of hot hatch.
> 
> Moderate power, lightweight and excellent handling.
> 
> ...


They are way heavier and bigger than 80s salons.. A Sierra sapphire was around 1200kg..i think the rs3 is around 1500/1600kg

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## pt1 (Feb 8, 2014)

Its hard to make a true hot hatch now a days due to safety and tech needed in new cars, they are just to heavy.nothing can compare to a 205gti, r5 gt turbo,escort rs turbo mk1, clio Williams, clio 182 trophy etc.i think the last true hot hatch was the n/a clio 200..n/a engine, fwd,hatchback, all in a modern pakage.new hot hatches like the fk8 civic type r, rs3 and focus rs etc are good modern interpretations but you will never great the raw thrills of the originals 

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## c87reed (Dec 9, 2015)

I own a car that was mentioned very early on in this thread – the up! GTI. My initial thoughts about the car was ‘no’, it couldn’t be a hot hatch. My basis for that was that it would be left standing by other widely recognised hot hatches, such as the Fiesta ST for example. Recently, I had considered getting a remap for it, but I have since decided not to bother and just to enjoy it for what it is.

On reflection, there’s a lot more to a hot hatch and I thought that maybe it’s better to consider the up! GTI based on it’s own merits rather than drawing comparisons to other cars/GTIs/STs etc. Ultimately, it’s about how the car makes you feel; a hot hatch needs to be fun and engaging, be it the sound, eagerness, brakes, feel of the controls. 

I was nipping through Darlington yesterday evening in a bit of a hurry. I wasn't going all that quick at all in fact, but the up! GTI felt pretty lively in terms of the handling around the many roundabouts and it was all good harmless fun. I commute through Swaledale, N. Yorks daily and it's a hoot on the national limits even without clocking over 60mph on the dial. I can be whizzing down the lanes whilst still staying in the 50s for the mpg.


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## muzzer (Feb 13, 2011)

Andy1972 said:


> When VW basically invented the genre with the Mk1 golf in the late 70's it was successful for two reasons - it was fun to drive but more importantly it was also affordable. Other manufacturers jumped on the bandwagon and followed the same rules, eg 205 GTi…. Something a young professional could afford.
> 
> Citroen then brought it down a level to include your average 20's something with the AX GT and later the saxo VTR/S. Hence why they were so popular.
> 
> ...


Back in the day the majority tended to own their cars so hatchbacks had to be cheap to appeal to the person putting money on the counter, hence Max Power and the likes thrived because people couldn't afford to buy high performance cars as such, they had to tinker to make them stand out.
The PCP deal did away with all of that culture and the need to own your own car, it's easier just to get a car on a PCP and keep it for 3 years before moving on and this explains a proliferation of younger drivers hooning about in the what at one time were perceived to be unobtainable cars.
There is a lad who lives not far from me who is belting about in an M4 BMW and he isn't earning stupid money but enough to be able to have a car like that on a PCP deal. Back in the day, he'd have been modifying a fiesta or a saxo to stand out.

Long gone are the days of cheap cars because manufacturers don't need to keep the prices low to tempt buyers as i would say about 70% of the population no longer own their cars, they just lease them.


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## Derekh929 (Aug 28, 2011)

muzzer said:


> Back in the day the majority tended to own their cars so hatchbacks had to be cheap to appeal to the person putting money on the counter, hence Max Power and the likes thrived because people couldn't afford to buy high performance cars as such, they had to tinker to make them stand out.
> The PCP deal did away with all of that culture and the need to own your own car, it's easier just to get a car on a PCP and keep it for 3 years before moving on and this explains a proliferation of younger drivers hooning about in the what at one time were perceived to be unobtainable cars.
> There is a lad who lives not far from me who is belting about in an M4 BMW and he isn't earning stupid money but enough to be able to have a car like that on a PCP deal. Back in the day, he'd have been modifying a fiesta or a saxo to stand out.
> 
> Long gone are the days of cheap cars because manufacturers don't need to keep the prices low to tempt buyers as i would say about 70% of the population no longer own their cars, they just lease them.


Yes not many want to start at the bottom and tinker with motors know, they are disposable buy products.
I think PCP is only partly to blame though and a well managed PCP or decent interest rate on well affordable payments is not a problem at all, its just most don't look at price that is important along with interest rates and gfv and fees and penalties.
I think ford was 86% PCP the last time I looked, and up till my last car I have always paid half and financed half through my business, but latest car is PCP but even though I was in position to buy outright. I did not as got low rate and know worst case scenario in the 4 year.
I do think many forget the Interest on the balloon payment is a lot and for get to look at total Interest paid over the deal period.
I fear manufacturers start fines when hand back when they realise gfv if higher than current market values on many cars they will make up with hand back penalties.


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## beatty599 (Sep 18, 2016)

A hot hatch has to be that one step up above the normal cars on the road, not lightning fast, but quick and to a point where you can push the car to the limit of it's 120bhp for example. You don't want to be going fast, but you want it to feel fast.

I've recently changed from a 1.4 85bhp Polo to a 2018 Golf GTD, and it's a shame to say really but the polo was so much more fun. When the Up! GTI becomes a used bargain I'll be picking one up.


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## Derekh929 (Aug 28, 2011)

beatty599 said:


> A hot hatch has to be that one step up above the normal cars on the road, not lightning fast, but quick and to a point where you can push the car to the limit of it's 120bhp for example. You don't want to be going fast, but you want it to feel fast.
> 
> I've recently changed from a 1.4 85bhp Polo to a 2018 Golf GTD, and it's a shame to say really but the polo was so much more fun. When the Up! GTI becomes a used bargain I'll be picking one up.


Good point so I ask all looking at the thread is there such a thing as a derv hot hatch? Or is that just wrong on all levels?


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## SteveTDCi (Feb 8, 2006)

Derekh929 said:


> is there such a thing as a derv hot hot? Or is that just wrong on all levels?


ITS WRONG (shouty capitals very much needed)


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## pt1 (Feb 8, 2014)

Andy1972 said:


> When VW basically invented the genre with the Mk1 golf in the late 70's it was successful for two reasons - it was fun to drive but more importantly it was also affordable. Other manufacturers jumped on the bandwagon and followed the same rules, eg 205 GTi…. Something a young professional could afford.
> 
> Citroen then brought it down a level to include your average 20's something with the AX GT and later the saxo VTR/S. Hence why they were so popular.
> 
> ...


The early 2000s were not all bad, the clio 172 was born, up there with the best in my opinion, the mk2 172 was good, 172 cup brilliant, 182, 182 cup and 182 trophy up there with the best,plus the ep3 came out in 2001 i think. So the early 2000s produced some of the best hot hatches

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## Derekh929 (Aug 28, 2011)

pt1 said:


> The early 2000s were not all bad, the clio 172 was born, up there with the best in my opinion, the mk2 172 was good, 172 cup brilliant, 182, 182 cup and 182 trophy up there with the best,plus the ep3 came out in 2001 i think. So the early 2000s produced some of the best hot hatches
> 
> Sent from my CLT-L09 using Tapatalk


Yes another 2 hot hatches for me Ren sport have produced some crackers for me, a Gordini Turbo, super hot hatch?


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## cloughy (Feb 12, 2012)

I've just picked up a 2016 Suzuki Swift Sport and it's so much fun. 136bhp in a car that barely registers a tonne, excellent handling and a lovely 6 speed short throw box. NA so you need to work the box but that makes it more fun and after 4k revs the engine comes alive. Haven't had this much fun in car for years.


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## Derekh929 (Aug 28, 2011)

cloughy said:


> I've just picked up a 2016 Suzuki Swift Sport and it's so much fun. 136bhp in a car that barely registers a tonne, excellent handling and a lovely 6 speed short throw box. NA so you need to work the box but that makes it more fun and after 4k revs the engine comes alive. Haven't had this much fun in car for years.


Yes I have heard the Swift sport is great car and well balanced, so do you think it's a hot hatch and what do others think?


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## Peirre (Jun 29, 2015)

Volkswagen have ruined the Gti format by using it on virtually every level of car they make. The purists will be up in arms seeing the UP Gti and is definitely not a hot hatch, the new 2ltr polo Gti+ that I have on order (due delivery in 4-6 weeks) Might just be called a hot hatch, but the Gti purists would turn in their graves as the polo is now a 5 door with DSG not the default 3 door with a manual gearbox. But as previously mentioned the hot hatch is now in the realms of luxury car prices


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## c87reed (Dec 9, 2015)

Peirre said:


> The purists will be up in arms seeing the UP Gti and is definitely not a hot hatch. the new 2ltr polo Gti+ that I have on order (due delivery in 4-6 weeks) Might just be called a hot hatch, but the Gti purists would turn in their graves as the polo is now a 5 door with DSG not the default 3 door with a manual gearbox. But as previously mentioned the hot hatch is now in the realms of luxury car prices


There's a large number of people who see the up! GTI as a breath of fresh air; a step away from the usual 300bhp that isn't safely accessible on UK roads. I've heard plenty of people say that they just find their Golf Rs boring unless driven on their limit, a fair few have traded down. For me a hot hatch needs to be a manual, that's one thing I'll miss when we all end up going electric. Branding, such as GTI, can soon get watered down into just an equipment/trim level; you then end up with a car that looks great on paper but that doesn't do much for engaging the driver out on the road. The Polo is a prime example of a car that has just become too grown up.


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## SBM (Jul 4, 2013)

Yes for me I really dislike 2 things the OEMs are doing to water down their "Top Sports" brands:

1- By offering the brand on non sports models.
Audi doing "S-Line" options
BMW doing "M-Sport"
Merc doing "AMG-Line"
Ford doing ST-Line

2 - Producing the Sport brand on almost every model - even SUVs!!
What on earth are Audi thinking of with the RSQ3!!
BMW with the X5M and Merc with GLC and G-Wagon AMG's Pointless.

I used to get really excited and pour over magazines and the internet etc when a new RS4 arrived or an M3, now its like Meh 

Don't get me started on "optional extras" in the Supercar/hypercar arena!

Monday morning rant over :thumb:


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## The Cueball (Feb 8, 2007)

Derekh929 said:


> Good point so I ask all looking at the thread is there such a thing as a derv hot hatch? Or is that just wrong on all levels?


yes...well there was...its was the Citroen ZX Volcane TD

a great car with mid range punch to embarrass many a Helfrauds nova/golf etc

:thumb:


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## Derekh929 (Aug 28, 2011)

The Cueball said:


> yes...well there was...its was the Citroen ZX Volcane TD
> 
> a great car with mid range punch to embarrass many a Helfrauds nova/golf etc
> 
> :thumb:


Thank god its Monday the 1st or I would have been calling 666 to pick you up:lol:


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## Kenan (Sep 7, 2015)

The Cueball said:


> yes...well there was...its was the Citroen ZX Volcane TD


The 205 STDT also crossed my mind

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## The Cueball (Feb 8, 2007)

Derekh929 said:


> Thank god its Monday the 1st or I would have been calling 666 to pick you up:lol:


you shut up... :lol::lol::lol: :argie:

I never even noticed the date 

:thumb:



Kenan said:


> The 205 STDT also crossed my mind


good shout too...

:thumb:


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## eddie bullit (Nov 23, 2007)

Kenan said:


> In order of ownership
> 205 GTi 1.6
> 205 GTi 1.9 the MI16 then 1.9 on carbs
> Nissan sunny/pulsar GTI-R
> ...


Great list of real hot hatches there. 
A hot hatch is about involvement in my eyes. Straight line speed gets boring after a while and a lot of the new stuff only comes alive when really pressing on. 
The Peugeot 205 is a great example of a hot hatch. Its average pace wise, doesn't have any trick bits like LSD, turbo, double wishbone suspension, no driver modes. It is lightweight though and involves its driver like few can. Voted best hot hatch ever and for very good reason.Telepathic at times and seems as keen to be driven as I am to drive it. After a few hot hatches I still come back to my Pug. Things have moved on nowadays and its noisy and cheap plastics wouldn't be tolerated. A shame as if they did I reckon I would order a new one. :driver:


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## eddie bullit (Nov 23, 2007)

pt1 said:


> They are way heavier and bigger than 80s salons.. A Sierra sapphire was around 1200kg..i think the rs3 is around 1500/1600kg
> 
> Sent from my CLT-L09 using Tapatalk


All new cars have to deal with safety and luxury features which, whatever manufactures do to conceal with more power, still blunt handling and overall performance. Lightweight is king!


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## eddie bullit (Nov 23, 2007)

cloughy said:


> I've just picked up a 2016 Suzuki Swift Sport and it's so much fun. 136bhp in a car that barely registers a tonne, excellent handling and a lovely 6 speed short throw box. NA so you need to work the box but that makes it more fun and after 4k revs the engine comes alive. Haven't had this much fun in car for years.


Great cars and a good shout. More in line with the Hot Hatch genre. Light, rev and good handling. Tempted with one as a daily.


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## pt1 (Feb 8, 2014)

eddie bullit said:


> Great list of real hot hatches there.
> 
> A hot hatch is about involvement in my eyes. Straight line speed gets boring after a while and a lot of the new stuff only comes alive when really pressing on.
> 
> The Peugeot 205 is a great example of a hot hatch. Its average pace wise, doesn't have any trick bits like LSD, turbo, double wishbone suspension, no driver modes. It is lightweight though and involves its driver like few can. Voted best hot hatch ever and for very good reason.Telepathic at times and seems as keen to be driven as I am to drive it. After a few hot hatches I still come back to my Pug. Things have moved on nowadays and its noisy and cheap plastics wouldn't be tolerated. A shame as if they did I reckon I would order a new one. :driver:


I used to have a 205 1.9 gti but i think my 1992 clio 1.8 16v pipped it for 'fun' and had nicer handling.not many people mention or remember that 16v but i really rated it

Sent from my CLT-L09 using Tapatalk


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## ollienoclue (Jan 30, 2017)

SBM said:


> Yes for me I really dislike 2 things the OEMs are doing to water down their "Top Sports" brands:
> 
> 1- By offering the brand on non sports models.
> Audi doing "S-Line" options
> ...


Agree. Nothing makes me more irate than seeing BMW or Audi slap M or S badges on virtually anything. It has really put me off their cars now for good. That and the explosion in a switch factory and electronic everything. An M car used to be an engine and a gearbox and a chassis with some zest and polish put into it. Now its twin turbo everything, an avalanche of torque the chassis has no hope of ever controlling and instead you get 7 different driver aids, 4 wheel drive and seats that move automatically, along with an in car menu that has more options than the menu at Frankie and Bennies.

What the actual fudge went wrong?


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## transtek (Mar 2, 2007)

cloughy said:


> I've just picked up a 2016 Suzuki Swift Sport and it's so much fun. 136bhp in a car that barely registers a tonne, excellent handling and a lovely 6 speed short throw box. NA so you need to work the box but that makes it more fun and after 4k revs the engine comes alive. Haven't had this much fun in car for years.


I was going to mention the Swift as it is the same genre as the original Golf GTI: cheap, light weight and practical, but more importantly, fun!:thumb:


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## SBM (Jul 4, 2013)

ollienoclue said:


> Agree. Nothing makes me more irate than seeing BMW or Audi slap M or S badges on virtually anything. It has really put me off their cars now for good. That and the explosion in a switch factory and electronic everything. An M car used to be an engine and a gearbox and a chassis with some zest and polish put into it. Now its twin turbo everything, an avalanche of torque the chassis has no hope of ever controlling and instead you get 7 different driver aids, 4 wheel drive and seats that move automatically, along with an in car menu that has more options than the menu at Frankie and Bennies.
> 
> What the actual fudge went wrong?


:thumb::thumb::thumb:


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## Derekh929 (Aug 28, 2011)

ollienoclue said:


> Agree. Nothing makes me more irate than seeing BMW or Audi slap M or S badges on virtually anything. It has really put me off their cars now for good. That and the explosion in a switch factory and electronic everything. An M car used to be an engine and a gearbox and a chassis with some zest and polish put into it. Now its twin turbo everything, an avalanche of torque the chassis has no hope of ever controlling and instead you get 7 different driver aids, 4 wheel drive and seats that move automatically, along with an in car menu that has more options than the menu at Frankie and Bennies.
> 
> What the actual fudge went wrong?


Have to agree with a lot of that , but its the drive for profits and people get sucked in with it all, but after having driven a M235i on track and on road its a great car for the money on of the best engines out there and its fun to exploit.
all this M lite niches are every where from A35 AMG to C43 S, RS, for me the weight issue and to many gadgets we was discussing on cutters yesterday.
I hate loads of switches and can well do without heavy electric seats and all the extra sound proofing that hides the character of some new cars.
I loved my E30 sport beemer in the 80's so controllable felt every movement of the front end easy to gather the rear when you over cooked it on a corner, you felt you were part of the machine:thumb:
I think a back to basic approach great for petrol heads but 80% of M car sales I bet is not all petrol head sales know so like the new 1 Series BMW being front wheel drive mini platform share they don't car as about 80% don't know the current 1 series is rear drive a sad figure it may well be.
We are just customer cash cows buying into the manufacturers ideologies me included
I running a 1700kg AMG I would like it to be 200kg lighter and have less gadgets, but hell it is still a riot to be lucky enough to own and enjoy it, we just live in a different world know, all be in the new 911 looks to be bucking the trend as its meant to be an amazing drive hopefully I will find out soon.


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