# My findings on snowfoam... useless.



## Jesse74

Hi everyone! The more products I buy/use, the more I begin to question their capabilities/usefulness. I think part of this is because I don't want to cheat my customers and well, I've always been one to dissect things anyway. So far most of my focus has been on waxes, but lately I've had snowfoam under the microscope and I'm not too happy with what I've seen thus far.

I tested 3 different snowfoams (Insta Finish Super Foam, Organizone No Touch and another Hungarian brand) and although they didn't have the trendy "pH neutral" slogan branded on them, I'm sure they were pH neutral. Regardless of their pH values they all 3 produced the same results... here's what I found >>

Here's an Audi Q5 that I did recently. It's about 6 months old and I'm guessing it had only been washed a couple of times since it was purchased. The owner lives in the countryside with little country roads, so it was full of a clay-like mud, tar road film and other gunk like diesel fuel spills (at least she pumps her own gas ). It was caked on IOW... a perfect test subject.










Passenger side before foaming.










Driver's side before foaming.










I foamed only one half of the car because this gave me a perfect view of what the foamed and un-foamed sides looked like side by side.










A closer look... not too much activity. I let the foam dwell for the usual 5 minutes or so.










As that was dwelling, I decided to enter another contestant to the snowfoam shenanigan. This was Organizone G1 degreaser and it's not in the snowfoam category; it's just a grease killer. I use this stuff on ceramic brake systems because it's a wicked wheel cleaner and when you dilute it with water *even 1%* it's pH value changes from 12.5 to neutral. Why did I decide to add a degreaser? Take into consideration what's on your car after a rainy day. Dirt, dust, the usual... and lots of oils and grease from the road... IOW road film. There's TONS of oils etc. on the roads and when it rains, those oils start to surface and they make your car a magnet for other grime.

So considering the crud that's on your car, how is a pH neutral soap going to take that stuff off by just sitting on it for a bit?? That's right, it's not. There's no grease cutting power in it so really it can't penetrate/break down that layer of gunk.

Here's the driver's side after a fresh dose of G1... lots of action here!!










A closer look










The snowfoamed side just before rinsing.










G1 degreaser side just before rinsing.










Snowfoamed door and other door with nothing applied rinsed with the PW... Neither in the picture nor in person did I see a difference between the snowfoamed side and the PW'd with cold water side. Trust me, I _wanted_ to see a difference but there simply wasn't any. Notice the paint on both sides is still very dull and "gray".










Here's the G1 side... there's a world of difference between these 2 doors! The right side was treated with G1 and the left with water only... even the part where the water just dripped down the door is considerably cleaner. Please examine both sides closely.










Another picture with the flash.










I continued to rinse both sides of the "G1 test area" with the PW. After that, I sprayed the left door with G1 (the side that hadn't been sprayed yet) and here's what I was able to remove after soaking for a couple of minutes >>



















This is an experiment that I've done several times now, so it's past the "hypothesis" stage. *I have done this test SEVERAL times, but have only captured it on camera a couple times* Though I can't say it's a full 100%, I'm pretty much convinced that snowfoaming with a pH neutral soap alone is very ineffective... well, about as useless as t1ts on a nun to be exact. Does that mean I'm going to sell my foam lance and give up foaming all together? Not at all.

Although I've found that snowfoam's cleaning abilities... well suck, the foam itself can be used a a vessel to carry the degreaser, as the degreaser doesn't foam well and won't dwell for long by itself. Will a snowfoam and degreaser cancel each other out like garlic and onions? I don't know, I'll have to test that more. Maybe Dave KG can chime in on this one, as I'd love to hear his input.

Here's another car that I included in my experiments. A couple of "swipe" marks are on the hood of the car (not my doing) so this is the "comparison point". This is before snowfoam.










After snowfoam and rinsed with a PW at pretty close range. No difference really.










Sprayed with a medium mix of APC and left to dwell. I took G1 out of the equation to test more variables... all in the name of science .










You can see for yourself that there's an extraordinary difference.










So here's what I've discovered with using APC to dissolve road grime. Although the mix pf APC I've used may not be pH neutral it did not do any apparent harm to the wax that was on the car. I didn't take pictures of the side of the car, but the wax still beading water very well there. I sprayed the car with APC on the waxed parts and let it sit for about 10 minutes. I then rinsed it off and the water was still beading and the road film was also gone.

APC will not strip the wax from a car if not agitated. Just like a knife or a sword will not cut your skin if not pulled/agitated. Yes, the APC you apply _may_ reduce the life of the wax that's on the car, BUT I'd rather _reduce_ the life of the wax than _induce_ scratches.

Please do your own research on this matter and come to your own conclusions about it. This is just what I've discovered so I thought I'd share with the rest of you. Thanks for taking the time to read !

- Jesse


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## themaninavectra

DAMN!!!! Food for thought! I can't wait to see how this thread develops... It's making me look at my routine VERY differently!


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## Avanti

Thanks for taking the time to conduct and report your findings, I may have missed it in the write up, what is the spec (flow rate) of the power washer? PH 12.5 diluted at 1% will give a PH 10.5 (as PH is a log10 value) .
I would agree looking at the pics that your chosen products are performing no better than say Comma pressure wash shampoo (which is PH7) . 2 gems of find are OTC TW MPC and car plan pressure washer shampoo. It would have been interesting to learn your findings of the Astonish degreaser on those soiled panels you showed.
I have found in the power washer shampoo game, price does not equal performance and like you have found the wax coating is not jeapordised by regular use of these products (well certainly not the detergent proof paste waxes).


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## Jesse74

Avanti said:


> Thanks for taking the time to conduct and report your findings, I may have missed it in the write up, what is the spec (flow rate) of the power washer? PH 12.5 diluted at 1% will give a PH 10.5 (as PH is a log10 value) .
> I would agree looking at the pics that your chosen products are performing no better than say Comma pressure wash shampoo (which is PH7) . 2 gems of find are OTC TW MPC and car plan pressure washer shampoo. It would have been interesting to learn your findings of the Astonish degreaser on those soiled panels you showed.
> I have found in the power washer shampoo game, price does not equal performance and like you have found the wax coating is not jeapordised by regular use of these products (well certainly not the detergent proof paste waxes).


Thanks for reading ! I found the 1% dilution ratio a bit odd as well for such a high pH value, but the MSDS clearly states "pH 1% vizzel hígítva = semleges". Translated, "pH value when diluted with 1% water = neutral". This is an experiment that I'll be continuing and I'm in the process of mixing a snowfoam that actually cleans. Maybe I'll send you a bit if I come up with something worthy!


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## Avanti

Clever Nickname said:


> Thanks for reading ! I found the 1% dilution ratio a bit odd as well for such a high pH value, but the MSDS clearly states "pH 1% vizzel hígítva = semleges". Translated, "pH value when diluted with 1% water = neutral". This is an experiment that I'll be continuing and I'm in the process of mixing a snowfoam that actually cleans. Maybe I'll send you a bit if I come up with something worthy!


What I have found is that it is not worth worrying about with the PH neutral thing, I had AG HD wax on my vehicle and was using AG pressure wash which is >PH13 in an undiluted state, at 1% that would still be PH11 , it cleans the soiling foams well and the wax beading was still good for 20+ washes and 3 months whether it be winter or 'summer' :thumb:


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## Nikon1149

Very interesting, I have only just bought a foam lance but have had my suspicions from the outset. I think the lance is a great buy no matter what but the foamers are very expensive for what I they appear to do (not do).

I hadn't tried it yet but after reading this will most definitely be putting some APC in the lance and maybe some of my astonish degreaser too. I would post some pics if my digicam hadn't failed 

One thing I will mention though is that I have never heard of any of the snow foams you mentioned, and while I am far less receptive than most to brand names and price tags I think the next logical step would be to test the big names, then everyone will start paying attention.


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## Jesse74

Avanti said:


> What I have found is that it is not worth worrying about with the PH neutral thing, I had AG HD wax on my vehicle and was using AG pressure wash which is >PH13 in an undiluted state, at 1% that would still be PH11 , it cleans the soiling foams well and the wax beading was still good for 20+ washes and 3 months whether it be winter or 'summer' :thumb:


Roger that . To clean or not to clean, that is the question. I could care less if it strips my wax, just be dirt-free when I wash.


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## Nikon1149

Avanti said:


> What I have found is that it is not worth worrying about with the PH neutral thing, I had AG HD wax on my vehicle and was using AG pressure wash which is >PH13 in an undiluted state, at 1% that would still be PH11 , it cleans the soiling foams well and the wax beading was still good for 20+ washes and 3 months whether it be winter or 'summer' :thumb:


Were you putting the AG pressure wash in the foam lance with any kind of foaming aid or just on its own? What kind of dilution, surely not 1% in the lance?


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## Avanti

Nikon1149 said:


> Were you putting the AG pressure wash in the foam lance with any kind of foaming aid or just on its own? What kind of dilution, surely not 1% in the lance?


Yes, 100ml in the foam bottle, I have posted vids in the past, I am due to wash my car tomorrow, will be using 200ml this time , I don't mix products as I beleive the product should perform in it's own right, by the way don't be confusing AG pressure wash with AG BSC (which can also be applied via a foam bottle) :thumb:


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## grant_evans

Nikon1149 said:


> Very interesting, I have only just bought a foam lance but have had my suspicions from the outset. I think the lance is a great buy no matter what but the foamers are very expensive for what I they appear to do (not do).
> 
> I hadn't tried it yet but after reading this will most definitely be putting some APC in the lance and maybe some of my astonish degreaser too. I would post some pics of my digicam hadn't failed
> 
> One thing I will mention though is that I have never heard of any of the snow foams you mentioned, as while I am far less receptive than most to brand names and price tags I think the next logical step would be to test the big names, then everyone will start paying attention.


i used some apc in my lance a few weeks ago, bye bye lsp


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## Avanti

grant_evans said:


> i used some apc in my lance a few weeks ago, bye bye lsp


Change your wax if it comes off so easily :thumb:


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## chrisc

ill give my van a blast in morning with either some apc or tfr see what its like thrugh snow foam.like you say shampoo dont seem to do owt


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## Nikon1149

Avanti said:


> Yes, 100ml in the foam bottle, I have posted vids in the past, I am due to wash my car tomorrow, will be using 200ml this time , I don't mix products as I beleive the product should perform in it's own right, by the way don't be confusing AG pressure wash with AG BSC (which can also be applied via a foam bottle) :thumb:


100ml sounds more like it.. that's 10% 

1% would be 10ml, both of course assuming you fill to the litre mark with water.

What does BSC stand for? I will most definitely be trying this with the trusty daisy next wash.


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## Avanti

Nikon1149 said:


> 100ml sounds more like it.. that's 10%
> 
> 1% would be 10ml, both of course assuming you fill to the litre mark with water.
> 
> What does BSC stand for? I will most definitely be trying this with the trusty daisy next wash.


nope 100ml is 1%, don't forget the solution is mixing with the flow from the main hose, 100ml is 1% of 10 litres :thumb:

BSC is bodywork shampoo conditioner, the main known AG shampoo, the pressure wash is a 5 litre supplied product and since it's from the AG stable you know it will work and work well :thumb:


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## Mirror Finish Details

Interesting.


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## Leemack

Who gives a sh1t - it gets the neighbouring units/neighbours talking


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## 738ALR

Avanti said:


> nope 100ml is 1%, don't forget the solution is mixing with the flow from the main hose, 100ml is 1% of 10 litres :thumb:
> 
> BSC is bodywork shampoo conditioner, the main known AG shampoo, the pressure wash is a 5 litre supplied product and since it's from the AG stable you know it will work and work well :thumb:


This is what I'm using now - it does remove some of the grime.

Just to re-itereate what Avanti has already mentioned, I'm washing once / twice a week and AG HD Wax is still going strong - I don't think I'll be topping up my LSP before January.:thumb:


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## Russ and his BM

BH AF cleans as well as your G1 there - I have not used any other foams, and am unlikely to after this review!


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## Strothow

the_knight said:


> Who gives a sh1t - it gets the neighbouring units/neighbours talking


:lol:


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## Jesse74

Russ and his BM said:


> BH AF cleans as well as your G1 there - I have not used any other foams, and am unlikely to after this review!


Yep don't waste your money on the pH neutral snowfoam gimmick, I've wasted enough for the both of us. I know there's a lot of die-hard foamers out there that will argue with me till the end of days on this one, but if they set their biases and "foam lance pride" aside for the sake of experimentation, they'll surely find what I've found. I've read some reviews about BH and heard that it has exceptional cleaning abilities when used as a snowfoam... think I'm gonna pick some up now .


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## Jesse74

the_knight said:


> Who gives a sh1t - it gets the neighbouring units/neighbours talking


 True.. another reason why I won't toss my lance :lol:


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## Ross

Bilt Hamber dose clean effectively I find.


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## Jesse74

RosswithaOCD said:


> Bilt Hamber dose clean effectively I find.


Got any you wanna trade? PM me if so and we'll finger out some "apples for apples" trade! I'd love to test that stuff.


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## Avanti

RosswithaOCD said:


> Bilt Hamber dose clean effectively I find.


It does, but you never show so 
I think you should let the 'mittless masters' share the true views as the OP has raised a valid point and topic :thumb:


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## ant_s

Avanti said:


> BSC is bodywork shampoo conditioner, the main known AG shampoo, the pressure wash is a 5 litre supplied product and since it's from the AG stable you know it will work and work well :thumb:


so are you saying you can use BSC in a snowfoam gun and will work well? i may try that


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## Avanti

ant_s said:


> so are you saying you can use BSC in a snowfoam gun and will work well? i may try that


yes, you can use anything in a foam lance, dedicated products obviously should perform better, oh and use the same amount of solution that you would for a 10litre bucket :thumb:
As adding an inch is going to work out very expensive and for no good cause


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## chillly

Clever Nickname first of all thankyou for this great thread and taking time to do it. I have tried several foams and they are by know way a miracle cleaner! but on the other hand given the correct mix with certain foams i have found that i do get some very good results from them. but i must stress no miracle! but imo it does help. I think BH just beats all others for its cleaning abilities but does not foam as well as others. Hence why i mix mine as in a 50/50 using BH & autobrite foam. BH for its cleaning and autobrites for its foaming. This is by no means a plug for them its just my findings as a DW member wishing to find the best way to wash my cars with least damage so to speak. 

So if you email one of the Traders or BH direct and they are reluctant to send you a sample of there foam send me a pm and i will send you a sample myself. 

Again thanks for posting this thread very interesting. regards chillly

p.s Dear traders why not do a sample size of foam for all to try? just a thought


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## Neil_S

I use BH auto foam and it does work very well, in my experience the LSP plays a part in how well a foam will perform too. Some release dirt a whole lot more than others.


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## Avanti

chillly said:


> snip
> 
> Again thanks for posting this thread very interesting. regards chillly
> 
> p.s Dear traders why not do a sample size of foam for all to try? just a thought


I'm not a trader but can see the logistics in not doing so,the postage and packing may well outweigh the sample cost and put a say 300ml sample at prolly half the cost of a 5 litre .
I can see from the new comer to market place , lots of stories to read which makes it all the more confusing on what to go for.
I have tried plenty now and will stick with the ones I know as the do the job,so there will be nothing better, and if I did try something else and it was 'substandard' I would be stuck with it for many more washes , as such I would say to anybody in the market for certain products is check if there is somebody local (and willing) so that you can see the product perform and look out for posts like these where the poster can be bothered to take some pics or vids rather than always and only talking about what the product 'may' do.


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## spitfire

On the face of it, I think most folk would agree that snowfoam will not make your car spotlessly clean. TFR snowfoams may be better in that respect. There are a few things I'd like to point out though. IMHO any snowfoam used does have value in that it carries loose gritty particles off the paint as the liquid travels down the panels and off the car. It helps in this respect if the car has been waxed or sealed as the dirt finds these mediums harder to bond with. Your test car had no LSP so dirt will bond easier with the paint. Enough proof for me that snowfoam has it's use was finding snowfoam under the sills of the car that was without doubt dirty. As I said though it's the removal of the loose gritty particles that I expect snowfoam to remove so that when washing I lessen the chance of creating swirls. If in doing so it softens any other dirt which can be powerwashed off then so much the better.

Would PH netral do any better a job? I don't know but it may be better environmentally. Maybe our resident expert BigPickle could comment on that.

I'll also express my view that using APC at a ten to one ratio is bound to have an effect on your LSP. Using it though a foam lance, well maybe less so but that would require some more testing before I'd happily use it.

So, to sum up, yes I'll continue to use my snowfoam and be happy to do so as I am a confirmed believer that it does have it's uses.


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## subdialler

As the foam dwells, and falls from the car, I can always see traces of dirt, and in my mind, that's reducing risk. I'm staying with it.


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## Nikon1149

With regard to users seeing dirt in the excess foam and using that as evidence that the snow foam is indeed cleaning, I think a point the OP was trying to make is that when you compare that to the effect of just using the plain water jet of your washer, there is little to no difference.

Whatever perceived cleaning power the foams might have, it could just be the jet from your pressure washer that's doing nearly all the work in shifting that off.

That at least seems to be supported by the findings from the OP using the snow foams he mentioned, i'd be very interested to see his results with BH AF and VP PHN


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## stokie84

tbh i have to agree snow foaming is a waste off time IMO, it doesn't work and thats why i never do it


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## Avanti

stokie84 said:


> tbh i have to agree snow foaming is a waste off time IMO, it doesn't work and thats why i never do it


As said it depends on the power washer and to a lesser extent the product type, too many have spoken about karcher K2 series and similar low flow rate power washers, these I would not expect to have much more use than a plain hose.


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## spitfire

Nikon1149 said:


> With regard to users seeing dirt in the excess foam and using that as evidence that the snow foam is indeed cleaning, I think a point the OP was trying to make is that when you compare that to the effect of just using the plain water jet of your washer, there is little to no difference.
> 
> Whatever perceived cleaning power the foams might have, it could just be the jet from your pressure washer that's doing nearly all the work in shifting that off.
> 
> That at least seems to be supported by the findings from the OP using the snow foams he mentioned, i'd be very interested to see his results with BH AF and VP PHN


Yes, but the snowfoam does it without blasting the particles of dirt against the paint when using a PW.


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## PWOOD

I have an entry level karcher and use autobrite snowfoam and find it works for me. I use it as a pre wash before the mitt does its thing. On its own it does a passable job which is sometimes enough if time is short. I doubt a white car would be passable though.

The less hand wash contact on a Honda the better TBM or not:lol:


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## karl_liverpool

i found pretty much the same thing with near all the snowfoams, so to get round it ialways add a bit of apc in the mixture. always seemd to get the grease off better
only one i have seen clean without touch is durafoam, but that removes wax as it works.


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## MidlandsCarCare

I totally agree - I find just using one of the popular snow foams, on its own, makes very little difference to just pre rinsing my a pressure washer on its own. It's for effect more than anything... marketing ploy, if you will?

I find that dedicated degreasers like CG Citrus Degreaser or VP Orange Pre Wash (presumably citrus is a good natural degreaser?) does have some effect, but if you have a decent LSP on your car, then most cars will rinse clean anyway (in the same way brake dust rinses off wheels with a decent wheel protectant).

I have come to the point where I feel the only purpose that these things serve is a strong TFR on a car with no protection at all. On a well maintained car, you only need a pressure washer... IMO


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## Philip

This only confirms my own experience.

I think it's a waste of time if the car doesn't already have a good layer of protection, and even then it's clear that most of the dirt removed is a result of the pressure washer's action alone.

As mentioned above, a spray of APC solution (Surfex for me) _does_ work, but perhaps only effectively at a concentration where it will remove protection.


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## Avanti

Philip said:


> This only confirms my own experience.
> 
> I think it's a waste of time if the car doesn't already have a good layer of protection, and even then it's clear that most of the dirt removed is a result of the pressure washer's action alone.
> 
> As mentioned above, a spray of APC solution (Surfex for me) _does_ work, but perhaps only effectively at a concentration where it will remove protection.


How does the APC remove the wax?


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## Philip

Avanti said:


> How does the APC remove the wax?


So what do you use to strip wax?

A strong APC solution or a scouring pad?


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## karl_liverpool

daisy will remove wax. thats why i stopped using it for that purpose now its only used in arches and around badges. but saying that not all apcs will remove wax


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## Jesse74

karl_liverpool said:


> daisy will remove wax. thats why i stopped using it for that purpose now its only used in arches and around badges. but saying that not all apcs will remove wax


I think it mainly depends on the dilution ratio for wax stripping. A VERY heavy mix of APC would probably strip wax without any agitation and if left to dwell long enough. Then again to get that hang time you'd need to add some snowfoam to it . Like I said in the beginning guys, try these things for yourself and you'll see what I mean.

Anyway let's look at using APC to clean a well waxed car from another angle. Maybe it will reduce the life of the wax slightly, but that means you'll have to wax the car more frequently. No I don't know about you guys' customers, but I'm certain that none of mine would have any qualms with having to wax the car one extra time per year in order to properly prevent scratching...


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## stokie84

RussZS said:


> I totally agree - I find just using one of the popular snow foams, on its own, makes very little difference to just pre rinsing my a pressure washer on its own. It's for effect more than anything... marketing ploy, if you will?
> 
> I find that dedicated degreasers like CG Citrus Degreaser or VP Orange Pre Wash (presumably citrus is a good natural degreaser?) does have some effect, but if you have a decent LSP on your car, then most cars will rinse clean anyway (in the same way brake dust rinses off wheels with a decent wheel protectant).
> 
> I have come to the point where I feel the only purpose that these things serve is a strong TFR on a car with no protection at all. On a well maintained car, you only need a pressure washer... IMO


Totally agree with everything you have just said, my cars got so much protection on it all i have to do it blast it with a hose befroe washing it and 70% off all dirt just rolls off!


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## otis180808

*Snow Foam*

I found that snow foam is only good for carrying a non ph cleaner in order to breakdown the soiling on the vehicle, ph neutral snow foam I think is only useful for washing on a weekly basis where soiling is minimal. However I would like to test some "citrus" snow foam to see if there is better cleaning power?? I will post my results next week .


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## -Kev-

Philip said:


> So what do you use to strip wax?
> 
> A strong APC solution or a scouring pad?


use a scouring pad by all means - if you want swirly paint


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## Miglior

I see snow foam as one of those not completely necessary but "every little helps" steps in my detailing jobs.

If I have a un-detailed car fresh in, my first step after the wheels would probably be a citrus based degreaser on the bodywork, rather than snow foam.

If it was my own car, or a car i have in for a maintenance wash after a detail, i would probably use snow foam. Just because every little helps. Im very very very careful when washing a detailed car, with protection. And if it helps me ensure a defect free wash, and it adds 8-10 mins tops, then why not.


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## lpoolck

I was under the impression that you use snow foam to soften and loosen (not just remove) dirt/grime etc therefore reducing the chance of scratching your car when you go to wash your car, as the mud/dirt whatever you wanna call it on your car will be softer therefore less chance of making swirl marks in the paint when you pick it up in your mitt. Fair enough the PH neutral snow foam may not shift dirt...but it helps reducing the chance of swirl marks


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## Jesse74

otis180808 said:


> I found that snow foam is only good for carrying a non ph cleaner in order to breakdown the soiling on the vehicle, ph neutral snow foam I think is only useful for washing on a weekly basis where soiling is minimal. However I would like to test some "citrus" snow foam to see if there is better cleaning power?? I will post my results next week .


I'll keep my eye out for the review! I'd like to test some citrus degreaser myself.



JPC said:


> I see snow foam as one of those not completely necessary but "every little helps" steps in my detailing jobs.
> 
> If I have a un-detailed car fresh in, my first step after the wheels would probably be a citrus based degreaser on the bodywork, rather than snow foam.
> 
> If it was my own car, or a car i have in for a maintenance wash after a detail, i would probably use snow foam. Just because every little helps. Im very very very careful when washing a detailed car, with protection. And if it helps me ensure a defect free wash, and it adds 8-10 mins tops, then why not.


I guess if you calculate the "every little bit helps" into the equation, then foaming wouldn't be so useless. But like I said before, I'd rather hit it with an APC/foam mix and add some more serious cleaning power to it. Perhaps it will shorten the life of my LSP, but I think it's well worth it for the extra gunk that you can remove with it.


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## Blazebro

I use BH Autofoam, t's not great, but OK. In fact I used it on the wife car tonight as a prewash.

I think you need to try Actimouse Clever Nickname. This is effectively a truck TFR, but I've not heard any bad things about it stripping wax and it's what I'll be moving onto.

Here's some food for thought for you, very similar circumstances:

http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=127990&highlight=actimousse


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## Avanti

Philip said:


> So what do you use to strip wax?
> 
> A strong APC solution or a scouring pad?


Neither, solvents are used to remove wax :thumb:


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## Avanti

Nikon1149 said:


> 100ml sounds more like it.. that's 10%
> 
> 1% would be 10ml, both of course assuming you fill to the litre mark with water.
> 
> What does BSC stand for? I will most definitely be trying this with the trusty daisy next wash.


This is the effect of 200ml AG PW solution and 150ml of water then obviously the flow rate from the machine


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## Automake

*Snow foam vs Citrus pre wash*

Thanks for a most interesting view on snowfoaming Clever Nickname!
In my experience ph neutral snowfoam is a waste of money.. you might as well just use your pressure washer to knock off the surface dirt. I have been using Autosmarts acti mousse plus.. this is not ph neutral, however is is caustic free and Autosmart claim that at the correct dilution it will not damage or remove the LSP.

I have been using this foaming tfr in my Elite snowfoam lance for a while now.. which brings me onto dilution, i do not dilute! its that simple... why would you dilute a chemical which is going to be diluted when mixed with the water from your pressure washer? this is something i have never understood! i mean.. would you dilute your tfr before you fill up the chemical tank on your steam cleaner??? NEVER.

Anyway this product is ok.. it wont give you a touchless wash but it does however lift some of the grime.
I have been using a new product to pre wash and it is called "Viro Sol", this citrus de greaser will dilute up to 100:1 in a pressure spray and i am very pleased with the results.. unlike snow foam it doesnt lye on the ground and clog the drains up! I usually blast off any mud from the body, wheels and under the arches then apply the Viro Sol to the body from the bottom up.. leave for 5 mins and rinse.. my opinion it works better and saves loads of time... heres a link with some info...
http://www.mustang4supplies.com/index.php?act=viewProd&productId=916


----------



## Will-S

virosol has been around forever and is much like G101 IMHO. It is a multi purpose cleaner originally designed for janitorial use (ie cleaning up loads of crud). So long as you get the dilution right it is a good product, but it is not new.


----------



## Blazebro

Automakeover, I recently had quite a lengthy discussion, with my thoughts being exactly the same. However I do dilute by 50%, but would be quite prepared to go to 100%. My thoughts are that a cars body work is under attack from far worse substances.

Have you tried AS's HD Foam? I understand that this is significantly better so might negate the need for a prewash.


----------



## spursfan

I think snowfoam must work to a degree, otherwise the professional detailers on here would not use it


----------



## alan_mcc

JPC said:


> And if it helps me ensure a defect free wash, and it adds *the cost of the foam lance, and detergent*, then why not.


quite expensive for home use but tbh for a business you can't afford to create defects so on you go :thumb:


----------



## Automake

Blazebro said:


> Automakeover, I recently had quite a lengthy discussion, with my thoughts being exactly the same. However I do dilute by 50%, but would be quite prepared to go to 100%. My thoughts are that a cars body work is under attack from far worse substances.
> 
> Have you tried AS's HD Foam? I understand that this is significantly better so might negate the need for a prewash.


HD foam? hmmm.. do you mean dura foam? to be honest my rep suggested the acti mousse plus so i took his work for it!
The idea is this.. you fill your bottle with 100% foam solution and dilute with the dilution knob on the foam lance.. if you get it right you should have thick (ish) foam and use very little chemical.. much the same if you were to run a tfr through a steam cleaner.

I would really like to see a wheel cleaner which has a very high foam action... spray on and it clings to every part of the wheel for up to 10 mins!.. my problem with really dirty alloy wheels is you spray on your wheel cleaner and it simply runs off this would be very useful!!


----------



## spursfan

Automakeover said:


> HD foam? hmmm.. do you mean dura foam? to be honest my rep suggested the acti mousse plus so i took his work for it!
> The idea is this.. you fill your bottle with 100% foam solution and dilute with the dilution knob on the foam lance.. if you get it right you should have thick (ish) foam and use very little chemical.. much the same if you were to run a tfr through a steam cleaner.
> 
> I would really like to see a wheel cleaner which has a very high foam action... spray on and it clings to every part of the wheel for up to 10 mins!.. my problem with really dirty alloy wheels is you spray on your wheel cleaner and it simply runs off this would be very useful!!


Mark from Autobrite sells the foaming sprayheads and also the superb Very Cherry wheel cleaner. Give him a PM , he might be able to give you advice or sort out an order for you.
Both products are very good....:thumb:....Kev

See this link...http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=144518


----------



## Blazebro

Automakeover said:


> HD foam? hmmm.. do you mean dura foam?


No As do 4 foams, the least effective being Brush Wash, then Durafoam, then Actimousse, the most effective being HD Foam:

http://www.autosmart.co.uk/Car Cleaning Chemials.html


----------



## Tyrefryer

Automakeover said:


> which brings me onto dilution, i do not dilute! its that simple... why would you dilute a chemical which is going to be diluted when mixed with the water from your pressure washer? this is something i have never understood! i mean.. would you dilute your tfr before you fill up the chemical tank on your steam cleaner??? NEVER.


I reckon the point here is, to dilute it with HOT water


----------



## westerman

The reason I don't use snow foam is because of all the crap foam residue on the floor when it's done. As ALL my water runs accross the road to the neighbours kerbside I would certainly not be their 'bestest friend'


----------



## keano

I've not read the entire thread, but i have found (rather obviously) that on a well protected car the foam works wonders, however on dirtier, ill prepared cars, the results have little to be desired.


----------



## Celticking

My local polish place has changed hands and now is an Auto Glym wash station - or so the sign says. Its now just s foam place, no touch wash, I went yesterday (hangs head in shame) and tried it out. I know its a strong TFR they will be using but it shifted all the salt and visible dirt from the car


----------



## Automake

Blazebro said:


> No As do 4 foams, the least effective being Brush Wash, then Durafoam, then Actimousse, the most effective being HD Foam:
> 
> http://www.autosmart.co.uk/Car Cleaning Chemials.html


Oh i see...

Thanks for the info! wonder what the difference is between the HD and the ActiMousse plus? i like the Actimousse its ok.. but like i said touchless washing is not possible... the citrus degreaser in a pump sprayer works very well...

To explain further.. i use a karcher hot water machine and even at 80 DegC, the heat makes no difference to snow foaming.

Guys.. tell me what you think about this machine and your thoughts on a steam wash rather than using a regular pressure washer?

http://www.imexserve.it/IMEX-SVC13-Diesel-steam-car-wash-pr-106.html

Sorry to change the subject of the thread for a moment!


----------



## wedgie

I can only think it must be your choice of snow foam..

Have a look at the before and after pics in  This  thread and tell me that foaming doesnt work..

The only part of the car that was touched by hand was the wheels.


----------



## Blazebro

^ It looks good, but ever heard the saying "Never buy a car in the rain"? I'd bet if you ran a towel along any panel of that it's not going to come back the same colour.


----------



## Clean-my-sxi

as i said in another post, 

just my opinion here,i use about 200ml BH foam neat in the bottle and adjust the lance accordingly, i find doing it this way makes a better clinging foam then when i mix with water to 1litre, however it seems whatever strength sollution i use (ive tried upto 400ml) the cleaning ability doesnt seem that much greater if at all, then just blasting the car with water.i use a nilfisk p150 also note my wax coat may need a top up, but i use colli 476i really wanna try a pre wash chemical as ive heard they can be better then snow foams 

i am still to use that AG PW cleaner you sent me Avanti


----------



## supercharged

you need to use thicker snow foam concentration, 10% in this case, not 1%...


----------



## RivieraV

Automake said:


> Oh i see...
> 
> Thanks for the info! wonder what the difference is between the HD and the ActiMousse plus? i like the Actimousse its ok.. but like i said touchless washing is not possible... the citrus degreaser in a pump sprayer works very well...
> 
> To explain further.. i use a karcher hot water machine and even at 80 DegC, the heat makes no difference to snow foaming.
> 
> Guys.. tell me what you think about this machine and your thoughts on a steam wash rather than using a regular pressure washer?
> 
> http://www.imexserve.it/IMEX-SVC13-Diesel-steam-car-wash-pr-106.html
> 
> Sorry to change the subject of the thread for a moment!


Load of ****** , sorry just my opinion, I do not like these systemd, they are simply not as good as the old fashioned way..


----------



## Avanti

RivieraV said:


> Load of ****** , sorry just my opinion, I do not like these systemd, they are simply not as good as the old fashioned way..


Heh heh , the words of someone in denial,


----------



## The Cueball

RivieraV said:


> Load of ****** , sorry just my opinion, I do not like these systemd, they are simply not as good as the old fashioned way..












And completely worthless as well 

:lol:


----------



## gally

Hmm strange thread but snowfoam does work.

You only have to look at the threads on here to see that, Look at Steve's recent thread (miles better) 

The Audi was covered in road grime and the snowfoam removed it. of course not to perfection but the dirt on the floor amongst the foam was enough to see it worked.

I and many others have never heard of the snowfoams you speak of so no doubt we can't comment, what I can say is from my viewing and experience here in the UK we have a lot of decent snowfoams to choose from.

Maybe get a sample off someone who you post to and see if it's better than your homeland stuff? I think you'll be surprised, evem more so on white.


----------



## big ben

The Cueball said:


> And completely worthless as well
> 
> :lol:


as is your post :lol:

only joking though mate, i love reading your posts honestly :thumb:

decent snow foam on a well protected car does work, and it looks cool so who cares!?


----------



## JJ_

Some snowfoams do work but there a lot that don't. The only one I'm truly happy with is the new chemical guys snow foam.

I too don't mind about wax removal as I prefer de-wax than Re-swirl !


----------



## RivieraV

Ahhhh,, the dirty is a melting !:lol::lol::lol:

http://www.imexserve.it/Steam-Car-Wash-Snow-vd-19.html


----------



## shine247

Good test, pretty much confirms all I find even on well protected cars. The snowfoam alone does not clean the car but as shown in the Civic thread, it does make it cleaner, so does a PW alone (there is still a good layer of dirt on that car). Washing the car with snowfoam alone leaves a layer of dirt. If that satisfies on the day then of course that is OK.

The main reason I continue to use it is simply that I have lots of it having tried various makes  and I like to leave a layer on the car before using a mitt. 
When my supplies run out I think I will just use something like the Carplan Avanti posted another thread, readily available and cheap.

Doing as I do has kept my car pretty swirl free for over two years so I see no need to rely on the touchless wash as far as snowfoam goes at this time.

_Edit_

Having said that, On Wednesday I washed the car with ONR for the first time. Found it a bit of a faff but the car was clean in the end. Today, the car had a layer of dust on it. I did not have time to wash it fullyand could see it was clean underneath the dust. I just washed off with the hose spray, then Demon Shine then loose hose and drove up the road (because I had a small trip to make) with water droplets beading off. I have to say it looked very good and that was touchless but without all the equipment.

Of course it was not really dirty but did the ONR help?


----------



## Chufster

I don't expect the snow foam to remove the dirt, only soften it, so that it comes off easier with the pressure washer.

I find the supa snow foam I use does do that, despite some quite pitiful dwell time.


----------



## Avanti

Chufster said:


> I don't expect the snow foam to remove the dirt, only soften it, so that it comes off easier with the pressure washer.
> 
> I find the supa snow foam I use does do that, *despite some quite pitiful dwell time.*




In fairness until Magifoam and Chemical Guys no touch wash arrived, there were no products about that offered similar dwell times (like to be corrected though) saying that I find 3 mins is ample with many products :thumb:


----------



## Chufster

To be fair I think i've got lance issues as it barely lasts 3 mins, despite going on like shaving foam.

I'll probably strip the lance down tomorrow if i get the time.


----------



## MilesBetter

Avanti said:


> [/B]
> 
> In fairness until Magifoam and Chemical Guys no touch wash arrived, there were no products about that offered similar dwell times (like to be corrected though) saying that I find 3 mins is ample with many products :thumb:


+1 The MF abd CG foams are certainly the game changer and in a different league and catergory of their own IMO.

I think there are more than enough threads for MF now to make this is a moot point now.


----------



## maestegman

I have the AB group buy snow foam lance and I run Magifoam through it. It makes very little difference, IMHO, to a good 2BM with a PW washdown.

But, it's great fun to use 

Is it any good? In my opinion, no.

Would I stop using it? Nope. It's great!


----------



## Avanti

maestegman said:


> I have the AB group buy snow foam lance and I run Magifoam through it. *It makes very little difference, IMHO,* to a good 2BM with a PW washdown.
> 
> But, it's great fun to use
> 
> Is it any good? In my opinion, no.
> 
> Would I stop using it? Nope. It's great!


It's not an attack just a question... how come those saying their product /machine is not achieving or achieving very little rarely (if ever post vids ) of what they are ot achieving? I washed my car today, if I washed the car tomorrow , water alone may achieve a clean on the front panels (tailgate is a little more troublesome) however after a longer period of soiling the water sits on the soiling almost as it would a wax, the rinse down just cuts through the soiling, with little difference to that on the rims


----------



## MilesBetter

maestegman said:


> I have the AB group buy snow foam lance and I run Magifoam through it. It makes very little difference, IMHO, to a good 2BM with a PW washdown.
> 
> But, it's great fun to use
> 
> Is it any good? In my opinion, no.
> 
> Would I stop using it? Nope. It's great!


Everyones opinions respected of course.

Heres some examples of Magifoam making no difference whatsover and I had to resort to scrubbing them with a yard brush  :lol:

http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=203643

http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?p=2611929

Full thread to above...
http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=202713

http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=203535

http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=201608


----------



## maestegman

Thanks both. I agree. All opinions should be respected.


----------



## donkeyboy

Interesting thread.

For those who are posting pictures of cars cleaned with a pre-foam only and using it as an example of how they work, please remember that the only comparison can be if you tried using just the PW, as the OP did. Otherwise you have no way of knowing how much dirt was removed by the foam or by the PW itself.

If all you are using to rinse is an open ended hose for example, than I could see a foam having some use, but I suspect that most people who use a foamer have a PW.

I do pre-foam just through habit, but tend to add some APC into the mix, which helps a lot compared to just foam.

I have a pretty powerful Kranzle and am convinced, having tried it, that I can clean the car pretty much as well as can be told using it alone, with no foam.


----------



## Avanti

donkeyboy said:


> Interesting thread.
> 
> For those who are posting pictures of cars cleaned with a pre-foam only and using it as an example of how they work, please remember that the only comparison can be if you tried using just the PW, as the OP did. Otherwise you have no way of knowing how much dirt was removed by the foam or by the PW itself.
> 
> If all you are using to rinse is an open ended hose for example, than I could see a foam having some use, but I suspect that most people who use a foamer have a PW.
> 
> I do pre-foam just through habit,* but tend to add some APC into the mix, which helps a lot compared to just foam.*
> 
> I have a pretty powerful Kranzle and am convinced, having tried it, that I can clean the car pretty much as well as can be told using it alone, with no foam.


Which foam though? 
You can wash the dishes with just water but they don't come up as clean as adding a little detergent :thumb:


----------



## apmaman

RivieraV said:


> Ahhhh,, the dirty is a melting !:lol::lol::lol:
> 
> http://www.imexserve.it/Steam-Car-Wash-Snow-vd-19.html


Who you gonna' call?!

When I first got my snow foam lance I got some AB Supa Snow Foam and it did little to clean the car, however Magifoam does seem to clean the dirt off cars very well.


----------



## shine247

Avanti said:


> Which foam though?
> You can wash the dishes with just water but they don't come up as clean as adding a little detergent :thumb:


Ah, but if you use snowfoam (I will not mention any brands so as not to advertise or put down) rather than Fairy it makes little difference. Smells nice and is lots of fun though. :wave:


----------



## donkeyboy

Avanti said:


> Which foam though?
> You can wash the dishes with just water but they don't come up as clean as adding a little detergent :thumb:


Magifoam, before that Snowfoam.

If you pressure washed your dishes though you would not need detergent :lol:

I do agree many cleaners quite obviously help to soften or remove dirt etc before you touch the surface with water, we have all seen this. Wheel Brightener, Bilberry, Iron-X, Super Degreaser, APC. The dirt visibly runs off.

Can't say I have seen this with pre-foam. I do tent to agree you could just PW your car before washing with 2BM and get basically the same results with no pre-foam.

I will continue doing it though just because it amuses me and seems to annoy the neighbours.


----------



## CraigQQ

not sure why your not seeing it mate.
but when i use magifoam... you actually see the foam turning brown as it drips off,

its clearly taking mud with it.. even on my lightly soiled/dusty car the colour changes as it slides off before p/w off


----------



## donkeyboy

CraigQQ said:


> not sure why your not seeing it mate.
> but when i use magifoam... you actually see the foam turning brown as it drips off,
> 
> its clearly taking mud with it.. even on my lightly soiled/dusty car the colour changes as it slides off before p/w off


I do seee that to some extent sometimes. That said, if I just sprayed a dirty car with plain water I would, to some extend see this.

I am not claiming, nor do I think is the OP, that these pre-foams have no cleaning properties, just that if these cleaning abilities are less than that of a PW alone, then the foam acheives nothing extra.

I still like to use the foamer to cover the car before I touch it with my wash mit, just so it is well covered.


----------



## shine247

This past week after a go with ONR for previous wash I went back to PW and my snowfoam method. The bonnet had a splashing of weak bird dirt across it. You will have seen the sort, like a weak watered down emulsion paint thrown over it. I snowfoamed leaving it to dwell for about 10 minutes. 
Then pressure washed off. I was surprised to see that the bird dirt did not wash away with the edge of the spray as the foam was moving. It remained until I put the main jet over it. Moved easily but what does that say about the ability of snowfoam as a cleaning agent. I really expected that dirt to just move away with the foam. Again, it shows the pressure washer is the main worker. Loose muck is bound to get carried by the foam anyway which is what many may see as impressive. (IMHO)


----------



## BAXRY

One small thing... Your testing on a Audi Q5 but on the bonnet pictures there is a opel badge :S ?


----------



## MilesBetter

Its like anything, there are some cack products that fail and some good ones that deliver results, but lot has to do with expectations, is it a cack product and fails if its meets the manufacturers intentions, but not your expectations and you are asking it to work outside of its intended task... its like saying all waxes or polishes, or trim dressings etc etc are useless because it doesnt work for you, or doesnt meet your expectations and doesnt deliver your results as expected... maybe you need to try another product or foam thats how I look at it....I wouldbnt be so quick to brand soemthing as useless with such a broad brush, when there are numerous indicators and references that some products do actually work and differentiate themselves..... just like some dont work and there are many SF's that fall short of a lot of expectations I must agree.

I have found foams that work and some that completely failed. Just like you will find with any product we can to think of.


----------



## Malkyp

I have had impressive reults with Magifoam Especially on the caravan with overwinter dirt and mould. The results were quite spectacular although I did not powerwash the caravan, just hosed it down.

My current method for my car which has a good coating of Meguiars Ultimate Wax is to powerwash the dirt off, rinse with an open ended hose and rainwater. (I've got a rainwater collection system with an automatic pump, so you get no lime deposits.) The water slides off in sheets. I then go round the car with a waffle weave cloth and Lucas Slick Mist. A quick buff with a good microfibre cloth and I get a great finish. I tried Meguiars Ultimate Quik Wax instead of the Slick Mist and that seemed to work OK but so far I've only done it once.


----------



## JJ_

Chemical guys no touch is one of three I find actually cleans aside from tfr


----------



## craigyd01

BAXRY said:


> One small thing... Your testing on a Audi Q5 but on the bonnet pictures there is a opel badge :S ?


He did prefix the photo with "Here's another car that I included in my experiments...."!!!!


----------



## CliveP

I have not read this entire post and don't remember it from when the OP posted originally, but it would be interesting to see if his view has changed since Magifoam was released. In my view it's awesome stuff, particularly in the winter (when I think the right snowfoam comes into its own).

Regards,
Clive.


----------



## MilesBetter

+1 to Clive...it is certainly one of the game changers.


----------



## Mr Yellow

I would be extremely interested to see a data sheet on Magifoam.... it surprises me that people think it to be so very much better because all of these sorts of products are, fundamentally the same. From a professional perspective... it IS easy to make a snow foam which works.... but I cannot guarantee you would like the MSDS!


----------



## Avanti

x12yhp said:


> I would be extremely interested to see a data sheet on Magifoam.... it surprises me that people think it to be so very much better because all of these sorts of products are, fundamentally the same. From a professional perspective... it IS easy to make a snow foam which works.... but I cannot guarantee you would like the MSDS!


Both Magifoam and Chemical Guys no Touch 'win' at present due to the far superior dwell times compared to the up until now offerings :car:


----------



## Mr Yellow

Avanti said:


> Both Magifoam and Chemical Guys no Touch 'win' at present due to the far superior dwell times compared to the up until now offerings :car:


But what are these products? Why are they so much better?

There are a number of ingredients on the market which DO make better products. Most people do not use them because they are actually dangerous. Some manufacturers continue to use them because they are not aware or are ignoring the health and safety implications...

I know I am suspicious but this is my business and it is annoying when the rules are broken.


----------



## chrisc

x12yhp said:


> I would be extremely interested to see a data sheet on Magifoam.... it surprises me that people think it to be so very much better because all of these sorts of products are, fundamentally the same. From a professional perspective... it IS easy to make a snow foam which works.... but I cannot guarantee you would like the MSDS!


a data sheet should be available for any chemical shouldnt it.
That's what they told me on my health and saftey course


----------



## Avanti

x12yhp said:


> But what are these products? Why are they so much better?
> 
> There are a number of ingredients on the market which DO make better products. Most people do not use them because they are actually dangerous. Some manufacturers continue to use them because they are not aware or are ignoring the health and safety implications...
> 
> I know I am suspicious but this is my business and it is annoying when the rules are broken.


A shampoo with added foam booster, or less foam reducer (IMO) I'm sure msds are available and I doubt any H&S rules are broken.
I don't think they are so much better but the short dwell time of current products has been addressed with these two products and offers more choice to the market :thumb:


----------



## chrisc

MilesBetter said:


> Everyones opinions respected of course.
> 
> Heres some examples of Magifoam making no difference whatsover and I had to resort to scrubbing them with a yard brush  :lol:
> 
> http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=203643
> 
> http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?p=2611929
> 
> Full thread to above...
> http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=202713
> 
> http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=203535
> 
> http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=201608


leave it to dry on it's own then see what you think of these so called wonder foams:thumb:


----------



## Mr Yellow

chrisc said:


> a data sheet should be available for any chemical shouldnt it.
> That's what they told me on my health and saftey course


Not quite so simple. If a product is not classified as hazardous then no data sheet is required. However, it must be available to a professional user, should they desire it. Hazardous products, irritants, harmful, flammable etc should have data sheets available to all users and, strictly speaking, these should be available openly in a place such as a website.



Avanti said:


> A shampoo with added foam booster, or less foam reducer (IMO) I'm sure msds are available and I doubt any H&S rules are broken.
> I don't think they are so much better but the short dwell time of current products has been addressed with these two products and offers more choice to the market :thumb:


You would be surprised... sonax break the rules. Their data sheets are not even written for Europe.


----------



## MilesBetter

Evening all, Data Sheets are available you just need to ask, I did just that and Mark supplied me one for Magifoam. Made no sense to me and I wouldnt know what I was looking at and the chemicals used etc didnt mean a thing to me; but I was doing some trade work and before I was allowed to this product on their premises I had to provide a DataSheet for thid any any chemicals I would be using on their premises.. H&S policy I Guess.

PM me with a email and I will mail it to you, or just ask Mark @ Autobrite.


----------



## MilesBetter

chrisc said:


> leave it to dry on it's own then see what you think of these so called wonder foams:thumb:


So, have you left it to dry, what did you see of these wonder foams when you did.

...As it happens, few back, I did exactly that on our second car to test...I find it a novel idea to base comments and express opinions based on testing and facts, not supposition and arm chair opinions

So, I actually Magifoamed it about 2'oclock in afternoon (one of the rare blazing sun weekends we had), then just for good measure I left it over night...rinsed off in the morning job was a good-un and no problems, rinsed straight off and was super clean and shiny.

So, _ "what do i think of these wonder foams"_ well, after testing, I think and see that Magifoam is great at doing what it sets out to do. Cant ask for more than that... a product that does its job.


----------



## MilesBetter

*Magifoam MSDS.....*

Hope its ok to post this... mods please edit if not allowed... apologies in advance 

Below means nothing to me, bay maybe does to somebody 



Code:


Name             				 Conc. Range    		Symbol    		Risk Phrase*
										
N-(2-carboxyethyl)-N-dodecyl-
Beta-aniline,monosodium salt	        1-11%		  	   Xi	                         R36

fatty alcohols C12-C14,
ethoxylated, sulphated
sodium salt				         0.5-7%		  	   Xi	                         R38,R41

sodium hydroxide                                      0.1-1.9%                           Xi                             R35	

Trisodium nitrilotriacetate                           1-15%			   Xi                              R22,R36	

Quaternary ammonium compounds,
Coco alkylbis-(hydroxyethyl)methyl,            0.1-1%                            Xi                              R36,R51/53
Ethoxylated ,me sulphates	       

Coconut diethanolamide                             0.5-7%                               Xi                            R38,R41

Fatty alcohol polyglycolether                      0.1-5%                               Xn                            R22,R41

Fatty alcohol ethoxylate                              0.1-6%                               Xn                            R22,R36

Triethanolamine                                          0.2-6%                               Xi                               R36


----------



## Mr Yellow

MilesBetter said:


> Hope its ok to post this... mods please edit if not allowed... apologies in advance
> 
> Below means nothing to me, bay maybe does to somebody
> 
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> Name             				 Conc. Range    		Symbol    		Risk Phrase*
> 
> N-(2-carboxyethyl)-N-dodecyl-
> Beta-aniline,monosodium salt	        1-11%		  	   Xi	                         R36
> 
> fatty alcohols C12-C14,
> ethoxylated, sulphated
> sodium salt				         0.5-7%		  	   Xi	                         R38,R41
> 
> sodium hydroxide                                      0.1-1.9%                           Xi                             R35
> 
> Trisodium nitrilotriacetate                           1-15%			   Xi                              R22,R36
> 
> Quaternary ammonium compounds,
> Coco alkylbis-(hydroxyethyl)methyl,            0.1-1%                            Xi                              R36,R51/53
> Ethoxylated ,me sulphates
> 
> Coconut diethanolamide                             0.5-7%                               Xi                            R38,R41
> 
> Fatty alcohol polyglycolether                      0.1-5%                               Xn                            R22,R41
> 
> Fatty alcohol ethoxylate                              0.1-6%                               Xn                            R22,R36
> 
> Triethanolamine                                          0.2-6%                               Xi                               R36


As I might have suspected. That nitrilotriacetate is the suspect. It is a wonderful chemical. In light of recent evidence, however, it is considered as a potential carcinogen. So someone needs to kick the magifoam makers in the ass because they are failing to identify their hazards properly!

adding...
I suppose whilst at it I should point out that sodium hydroxide is corrosive, not irritant. NTA should be harmful, not irritant (or both, but not just irritant). The Quaternary should have an 'N' because it is toxic to aquatic life and the concentration ranges refer to absolutely nothing sensible in terms of a chemical classification.


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## chrisc

MilesBetter said:


> So, have you left it to dry, what did you see of these wonder foams when you did.
> 
> ...As it happens, few back, I did exactly that on our second car to test...I find it a novel idea to base comments and express opinions based on testing and facts, not supposition and arm chair opinions
> 
> So, I actually Magifoamed it about 2'oclock in afternoon (one of the rare blazing sun weekends we had), then just for good measure I left it over night...rinsed off in the morning job was a good-un and no problems, rinsed straight off and was super clean and shiny.
> 
> So, _ "what do i think of these wonder foams"_ well, after testing, I think and see that Magifoam is great at doing what it sets out to do. Cant ask for more than that... a product that does its job.


What ever i say on here is based on the fact I have used it.
And yes they do look nice and shiny untill dry then a film is all over even the tyres look superb untill dry.I am baseing on CGno wash which defeats the name.
And most times have vid or photo.
And did you leave foam on over night if so that's not a real world test is it?


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## MilesBetter

Never had a problem with Magifoam TBH.


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## chrisc

Magifoam is better slightly but did not wait untill dry to see the end result.but i shall get a bit more again to try and see what it does

http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=203507&page=3

post 46
Forgot to get after pics when dry but no reason to lie.
Most cars i clean are very mucky reason why i have been asked to clean them and these products would have been a godsend.
There not bad just not as good as I thought they would be.
But still love snowfoam got nearly 50ltrs of various makes


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## MilesBetter

I think getting the ratio right is the key. Like with any shampoo, will leave a film if not diluted enough and then not rinsed thoroughly. I use 150ml in the 1l lance bottle; and always rinse throroughly, i dont use a drying aid, but sometimes may ue ONR via a sprayer as a drying aid, aid with water spotting if drying too quick.


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## mycleancar

If you added a Hot Water Pressure Washer to this process would the results be better ?


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## Adrian Convery

Just a few questions on this test, havnt read te whole thread but how much did you dilute the snow foam as the foam does not look to be very thick nor does it look to he sticking to the car in the first picture during foaming, it's just running off straight away? When I snow foam a car on the ground I see a mix of foam with dirt that it has taken with it before even rinsing down!


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## Guest

As a slight aside, one thing I have never understood is why there is such an apparently large variability in the concentration range e.g.


> Trisodium nitrilotriacetate 1-15%


Surely, you would want to be quite specific as to the amounts of each chemical used?


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## BAXRY

craigyd01 said:


> He did prefix the photo with "Here's another car that I included in my experiments...."!!!!


 oops lol


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## GrahamKendall

BareFacedGeek said:


> As a slight aside, one thing I have never understood is why there is such an apparently large variability in the concentration range e.g.
> 
> Surely, you would want to be quite specific as to the amounts of each chemical used?


I agree, That is a broad range, any one of these ingredients being increased or decreased within that range would surely alter the properties by quite a bit. I guess its so people cant go and easily copy it. Then again, I am not scientist!


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## Mr Yellow

BareFacedGeek said:


> As a slight aside, one thing I have never understood is why there is such an apparently large variability in the concentration range e.g.
> 
> Surely, you would want to be quite specific as to the amounts of each chemical used?


There are rules. It is not good to be too specific because then someone can copy the product with absolutely no work on their own part! In practice, it appears that the majority of manufacturers know this but do not know the actual rules and end up stating ranges which are utterly useless to anyone.

ps. I am a bit surprised that people are not a touch more worried that they may, unknowingly, be handling potential carcinogens!


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## Avanti

x12yhp said:


> There are rules. It is not good to be too specific because then someone can copy the product with absolutely no work on their own part! In practice, it appears that the majority of manufacturers know this but do not know the actual rules and end up stating ranges which are utterly useless to anyone.
> *
> ps. I am a bit surprised that people are not a touch more worried that they may, unknowingly, be handling potential carcinogens!*


Many of the chemicals are found in bathroom products EDTA being one of them, butyes you are correct we see many posts where folk do not adopt any PPE


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## Mr Yellow

Avanti said:


> Many of the chemicals are found in bathroom products EDTA being one of them, butyes you are correct we see many posts where folk do not adopt any PPE


You have to remember that a lot of the basic components are common to many products. As I have said elsewhere, the ingredients in many wax safe car shampoos are identical to those in washing up liquid (which we well know will strip wax, paint and probably lead to serious rust issues within a couple of months).


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## Avanti

x12yhp said:


> You have to remember that a lot of the basic components are common to many products. As I have said elsewhere, the ingredients in many wax safe car shampoos are identical to those in washing up liquid* (which we well know will strip wax, paint and probably lead to serious rust issues within a couple of months).*


You know I strongly disagree with that part, it's about time somebody demonstrated so, as people have used washing up liquid on their cars for years and years, without issue.

However beyond all that, the posts seem to leading along folk should stop using whatever they are using now and use what?
Is this totally safe worry free product going to be named?


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## Mr Yellow

Well, I have intentionally scare mongered - it is not right that a company gets itself an apparent advantage by not adhering to their health and safety obligations. If a product has "Category 3 Carcinogen" on the packaging, it will put people off. That is why many will have changed but they are then hit by the fact that the product is likely not as good.

Anyhow... how worried should you really be... well keep in mind that NTA was used as a major ingredient in professional dishwashing liquid for a dozen years. Keep in mind that the US still uses it merrily. I personally do not stress about it but keep your perspective because I do not stress about caustic of hydrochloric acid! So no, it will not kill you. It might never do any harm at all to you. BUT a consensus between the applicable scientists in Europe is that they cannot be confident that it wont.... and hence the warning.


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## Avanti

x12yhp said:


> *Well, I have intentionally scare mongered* - it is not right that a company gets itself an apparent advantage by not adhering to their health and safety obligations. If a product has "Category 3 Carcinogen" on the packaging, it will put people off. That is why many will have changed but they are then hit by the fact that the product is likely not as good.
> 
> *Anyhow... how worried should you really be... well keep in mind that NTA was used as a major ingredient in professional dishwashing liquid for a dozen years.* Keep in mind that the US still uses it merrily. I personally do not stress about it but keep your perspective because I do not stress about caustic of hydrochloric acid! So no, it will not kill you. It might never do any harm at all to you. BUT a consensus between the applicable scientists in Europe is that they cannot be confident that it wont.... and hence the warning.


Yes some are gullable some are ignorant some don't know any wiser, but if folk are not worried about one thing they will be worried about another, I always wash up using rubber gloves and use gloves when cleaning the car. It's also not right for companies to be selling products that are known not to work, (that's also 'cheating')
Whilst wax is a sacrificial layer, I will continue to use it as such, hence why I don't worry about wax stripping (even if it did occur) :thumb:


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## The Cueball

x12yhp said:


> ps. I am a bit surprised that people are not a touch more worried that they may, unknowingly, be handling potential carcinogens!


Meh....

Can't be worried about everything in life...

:thumb:


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## ercapoccia

I've tried Magifoam but i'm not impressed. I've used the same ratio than i usually do with VP PH natural, the foam was slightly thicker, but nothing magic. I'll try different ratio to see if i get better results.


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## Avanti

ercapoccia said:


> I've tried Magifoam but i'm not impressed. I've used the same ratio than i usually do with VP PH natural, the foam was slightly thicker, but nothing magic. I'll try different ratio to see if i get better results.


Strange you should say that, used 75ml topped up to 400ml with water (cold water out the tap I may add)

Here is what I got









I started on the drivers side, been round the car with the lance :thumb:


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## ercapoccia

Avanti said:


> Strange you should say that, used 75ml topped up to 400ml with water (cold water out the tap I may add)
> 
> Here is what I got
> 
> View attachment 18778
> 
> 
> I started on the drivers side, been round the car with the lance :thumb:


I got foam as thick as you have. I must say Magifoam stays longer onto the paint than VP PH Neutral Snow Foam at the same dilution, but i'm still not impressed with the cleaning power. It's a nice foam, probably it cleans slightly better than VP beause is more stable, but nothing special.


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## Jesse74

Wow almost 2 years old and this thread is still alive ? Was it something I said??


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## Avanti

ercapoccia said:


> I got foam as thick as you have. I must say Magifoam stays longer onto the paint than VP PH Neutral Snow Foam at the same dilution, but i'm still not impressed with the cleaning power. It's a nice foam, probably it cleans slightly better than VP beause is more stable, but nothing special.


What is the flow rate of the power washer? the rinse ability is a great advantage , 510/360 = a good 40% increase :thumb:


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## ercapoccia

Avanti said:


> What is the flow rate of the power washer?


I've a Lavor Temporale 420l/h 130bar (max)



Avanti said:


> the rinse ability is a great advantage , 510/360 = a good 40% increase :thumb:


Could you please explain?


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## Avanti

ercapoccia said:


> I've a Lavor Temporale 420l/h 130bar (max)
> 
> Could you please explain?


Many suggest a power washer model based mostly on cost, these will produce a foam effect, but the other part of using the power washer is to rinse off, the higher the flow rate the less need to have to follow up with a bucket wash, your machine is 420l/h so vs a 360l/h would be 420/360*100% so in your case your machine is offering 16% more force when compared to an entry level machine used under the same conditions.


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## thatitalian

I thought the very same - until I used hot water!

I hooked up my PW to a mixer tap and ran warmish water through it and it has made the world of difference! Just a pre rinse, snow foam left for 10-15 minutes and then a final rinse all with warm water. Much better results.


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## planktom

+1 !
i´ve got a kärcher 400l / 130bar
up to now i´ve just used normal shampoo...
1st by using the detergent tank ---only works at low pressure (you 
have to turn the nozzle to low-pressure flat jet)
slightly foam which runs down fairly quickly
2nd used the original kärcher foam lance with the 0,5l bottle (known for not so good foaming) : a little bit thicker and ~ 2 times longer lasting on the surface...in both cases it works surely better when i switch the kärcher heating on and do it with ~ 60..70°C
meanwhile i´ve got some supa snow foam and maxi suds II 
to perhaps test it this WE . had the same experience with my kärcher 
spray-extraction cleaner doing some interieur and carpets : the cleaning effect increases surely with warm water...
does anyone wash his dishes with cold water ? :speechles


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## thatitalian

Mine doesn't have a heating function - I literally run hot water through it. Try it!


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## bero1306

As post 1, Totally Agree.  :thumb:


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