# Why don't we just use fillers?



## Guest (Jan 26, 2010)

A few days ago I was handed a product. It's an AIO with some fillers, slight cleanser (from what I can see) and a nice sealent.
Now my Mum's car was on the drive. It's a metropolis blue focus with a fair share of swirling...









Now I hit it with this product with a lake country finishing pad on speeds 1-2 on the DA...

















Now thats easilly 90% correction. And I havent touched the clearcoat at all. I also did abit of the bonnet with SRP but the picture didn't come out as welll...









Not only this, beadings pretty good too...









Right now, one pad, one product, less time, 90% Correction and well protected.

Now I haven't head a machine to myself for very long. I'd say a month or two at most, then ontop of that I haven't had time to use it much either. 
But something that has played on my mind is theres loads of products out there that will fill most swirls, theres products like SRP with light abrasives that will clear oxidisation aswell.
Although I do realise some products will be needed for the deeper scratches and rounding off of others I do think ripping chunks of your clearcoat off which is vital for your paintwork isn't always the best way to do it.

So anyone else got an opinion on this sort of thing? As I really think this is sort of the way forward. It took one product, one pad where usually I'd use 2 or even 3 products before the Cleansing and LSP stage? Not only this it also took about 1/3rd of the time?
Unless you have some sanding marks or even deep scratches, why are we cutting our paint when we can just fill the swirls and have far healthier paint?

Anyone else got an opinion on this sort of thing? Bailes.


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## Eddy (Apr 13, 2008)

I'll be watching this with interest.

Good thread


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## steveo3002 (Jan 30, 2006)

kinda makes sense to use such fillers...if they could last a bit better


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## Guest (Jan 26, 2010)

steveo3002 said:


> kinda makes sense to use such fillers...if they could last a bit better


Seal over the top? Job done? And it dosent take much time if once eveyr 2-3 months you have to pop outside with a machine polisher and quickly go over with a filler heavy sealent?


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## MerlinGTI (Nov 4, 2009)

Im with you dude :thumb:

After an initial correction I think using a good filler heavy product to maintain a swirl free look (because unless your car is wrapped in cotton woll, swirls *will* happen to some extent, no matter how careful you are) is the way forward.

If you intend on keeping your car 'forever' cutting the paint regulary is a bad idea.


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## -ROM- (Feb 23, 2007)

Even when sealed it is only going to be a short term fix.


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## Eddy (Apr 13, 2008)

but if you kept on top of it? rewax once a month or something?


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## alan_mcc (Oct 28, 2008)

To be honest I'm not a fan of filler packed products.. don't consider paint to be "clean" with lots of fillers beneath the wax/sealant.

I don't consider a car with no swirls (due to fillers) to be "corrected", more "hidden".


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## Guest (Jan 26, 2010)

Eddy said:


> but if you kept on top of it? rewax once a month or something?


I don't even think you'd have to do it once a month? I've chucked a fairly durable wax ontop of this after I took the photos. So I'l see how it fares with day to day 'district nurse' life :lol:


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## Leodhasach (Sep 15, 2008)

I'll be watching this with interest too, although I'm of the 'once a year with the finest finishing polish' school of thought at the moment :buffer:

If the durability turns out to be reasonable, I'd be interested in using something like this to prolong the amount of time between abrasive polishing sessions.


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## beany_bot (Oct 6, 2008)

There is one main reason for me why fillers will never be an option.

When Ive polished my car to near perfection, i go to bed that night and can have a big smile on my face knowing that just outside my cars paint is perfect, pure and only coated with a nice wax.

I dont get that feeling using fillers.


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## Guest (Jan 26, 2010)

beany_bot said:


> There is one main reason for me why fillers will never be an option.
> 
> When Ive polished my car to near perfection, i go to bed that night and can have a big smile on my face knowing that just outside my cars paint is perfect, pure and only coated with a nice wax.
> 
> I dont get that feeling using fillers.


Thats all well and good but what if your doing worse to your paintwork? What if your casuing premature clearcoat failure by cutting back so much over time?


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## Eddy (Apr 13, 2008)

beany_bot said:


> There is one main reason for me why fillers will never be an option.
> 
> When Ive polished my car to near perfection, i go to bed that night and can have a big smile on my face knowing that just outside my cars paint is perfect, pure and only coated with a nice wax.
> 
> I dont get that feeling using fillers.


Good point, but there is only so much polishing you can do, maybe once a car is perfect when any little marks pop up then you could just fill them??

Again I'm with you but asking the devils advocate questions :thumb:


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## beany_bot (Oct 6, 2008)

I wash my car correctly and only inflict minimal minimal swirls. it will probably only need polished again in about 10 years lol by then it will be long gone.


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## -ROM- (Feb 23, 2007)

Also to add to my above statement, polishing isn't only about correcting swirls. That's just the first step! It's about gloss and depth.


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## beany_bot (Oct 6, 2008)

Bailes said:


> Thats all well and good but what if your doing worse to your paintwork? What if your casuing premature clearcoat failure by cutting back so much over time?


I can garantee you that using SFX3 final finish light polish and a DA once every 5 years will not cause "premature clearcoat failure" lol


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## Edward101 (Jun 5, 2009)

SFX3 is a great product... always get a lovely shine :thumb:... just thought i would add that in


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## Leodhasach (Sep 15, 2008)

rmorgan84 said:


> Also to add to my above statement, polishing isn't only about correcting swirls. That's just the first step! It's about gloss and depth.


That's the deciding factor for me. My father's 54 plate black Polo was in a bad way, and there was no way I could remove all the defects in the time I had (2 days), but the improvement in depth and gloss made it look a million times better even with the odd defect remaining.

I'm not sure you could achieve that with fillers?


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## MerlinGTI (Nov 4, 2009)

beany_bot said:


> I can garantee you that using SFX3 final finish light polish and a DA once every 5 years will not cause "premature clearcoat failure" lol


Nor will holding your DA above the paint without it plugged in whilst making '_whrrrrrrrrr_ noises yourself. Thing is not many people are going to do that either.

Who on here only DA's their car every 5 years? Realisticly its going to be a minium of once a year.


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## Guest (Jan 26, 2010)

Leodhasach said:


> That's the deciding factor for me. My father's 54 plate black Polo was in a bad way, and there was no way I could remove all the defects in the time I had (2 days), but the improvement in depth and gloss made it look a million times better even with the odd defect remaining.
> 
> I'm not sure you could achieve that with fillers?


Yeh thats fair enough. Im on about people with newish cars who cut back regularly now. Besides my Mum's cars hardly in decent condition and it worked very well on that :thumb:


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## Leodhasach (Sep 15, 2008)

Bailes said:


> Yeh thats fair enough. Im on about people with newish cars who cut back regularly now. Besides my Mum's cars hardly in decent condition and it worked very well on that :thumb:


Fair enough :thumb: As I said, I'll watch this with interest


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## twissler (Apr 6, 2009)

As a relative newb to this, I want to use both. The only time I would use an aggresive cut polish like Megs #83 is for any serious swirls. The rest of the time I'll use #80 to get the desired gloss and depth and the rest of the year I'll use something like BH to mask any light swirls and bring out the gloss. 

Both products have their uses but neither could replace the other IMO.


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## Puntoboy (Jun 30, 2007)

This thread is the reason why I bought Megs Ultimate Compound with my new DA. I saw Tom @ Megs do a demo using the stuff. One pad, one product, one quick pass and it was just a case of buffing off and done. Haven't had chance to give it a go yet mind.


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## spursfan (Aug 4, 2009)

Puntoboy said:


> This thread is the reason why I bought Megs Ultimate Compound with my new DA. I saw Tom @ Megs do a demo using the stuff. One pad, one product, one quick pass and it was just a case of buffing off and done. Haven't had chance to give it a go yet mind.


Puntoboy, what pad did you use with the ultimate compound? i have Swirlx and intend to give that a go with my DA, any advice would be appreciated.

Cheers...Kev:thumb:


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## Puntoboy (Jun 30, 2007)

I didn't  But IIRC Tom used a Meg's Softfoam 2.0 Polishing Pad.


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## spursfan (Aug 4, 2009)

Puntoboy said:


> I didn't  But IIRC Tom used a Meg's Softfoam 2.0 Polishing Pad.


Cheers for that, polishing pad it will be!!:thumb:


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## Auto Finesse (Jan 10, 2007)

Whilst its all well and good, filling is not a long term fix nor dose it create a finish even close to a properly corrected one. sometimes if time, skill, or your needs only warrent this type of thing then its fine, some times its needs must, but it cant be compared to proper paint correction.

Your quote of "ripping off chunks of clear coat" cause for concern, you either really dont have a clue about paint correction or your trying to scare monger the less informed members amoug us, both a bit stupid IMO


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## Danno1975 (Mar 30, 2009)

spursfan said:


> Puntoboy, what pad did you use with the ultimate compound? i have Swirlx and intend to give that a go with my DA, any advice would be appreciated.
> 
> Cheers...Kev:thumb:


Hey Kev, I promise I'll use my Swirl x soon :wave:, but in the interim I was advised to go with a yellow Menz pad.

Danno


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## ryanuk (Jun 22, 2007)

i think its a good idea,if you correct the paint on a car,no matter how careful you are at washing, the swirls are still going to come back in time anyway.


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## PhillipM (Jun 7, 2007)

1.) The finish from a heavily filled car to that of a perfectly polished one is an obvious step upwards in clarity

2.) Most heavy fillers compromise the sealants bond with the paint, so durability is affected and you have to keep topping up.

Saying that, I like to just take most of the swirls out once a year and then use something that can fill any remaining ones for the rest of the time anyway.


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## Alex-Clio (Oct 9, 2008)

When using abrasive polishes correctly, you're hardly 'ripping chunks' out of your clearcoat anyway. In most cases not a great deal of clearcoat is removed to get acceptable correction.

I do think a balance between the two is effective however, i.e. getting say 60-70% correction to take out the bulk of the swirls, then following with a glazing stages that masks the remaining small swirls. For people with not a great deal of machine polishing experience that is a sensible approach imo.


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## Guest (Jan 27, 2010)

Sure, for the pros creating the very finest machined finishes they are comparatively sub-standard products. But, maybe for the DIY enthusiast they have their place?

At what point would proper paint correction be noticably different from a filler heavy product, that also contains cleaners and micro abrasives?


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## twissler (Apr 6, 2009)

Once de-swirled via a proper machine polish unless you are a monkey you shouldn't have to take swirls out that often anyway. I corrected mine last year and there are just a few random scratches that need doing again. 

For me the appeal is more the ultimate finish, using light polishes on a finishing pad to acheive the best finsh possible. So i'll hardly be touching the clearcoat. But in between waxing (every 2 months or so ) filler heavy products such as SRP are ideal to prep the paint work and mask any extremely fine marring.


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## PaulN (Jan 17, 2008)

I think its much better to get a car corrected at first then if needed polish with filler loaded products than just keep using the filler products.

At least you know you started on a clean sheet.

Im going to Lime Prime the Freelander when the weather picks up just to take out the few marks picked up but the Boxster needs nothing and is nearly swirl free?????

I take just as much care with the Freelander but the Black paint is so unforgiving.

Cheers

PaulN


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## Guest (Jan 27, 2010)

james b said:


> Your quote of "ripping off chunks of clear coat" cause for concern, you either really dont have a clue about paint correction or your trying to scare monger the less informed members amoug us, both a bit stupid IMO


Right ok then maybe 'ripping' isnt the right word to use. Although if you look at it microscoppically really ripping is the right word. Abrasives are just lubricants with bits of grit that your rubbing around your paintwork 'scratching' layers of paint off.
Now how much paint would you say the average car has 100 microns? 120microns?
How much of that would be clear coat? 40 microns? 60microns? 
Call it 70 microns at most. 
Now take a panel with moderate paint and medium to deep swirls and the odd RDS. The average car shall we say. You are lookin at removing 10+ microns to correct that finish? Say 10 micrsons as a base figure and you have 70 microns of clear, that means you've just removed 1/7th of the clear? Now I don't know weather its just me but that seems like a large abount of paint.


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## twissler (Apr 6, 2009)

Bailes said:


> Right ok then maybe 'ripping' isnt the right word to use. Although if you look at it microscoppically really ripping is the right word. Abrasives are just lubricants with bits of grit that your rubbing around your paintwork 'scratching' layers of paint off.
> Now how much paint would you say the average car has 100 microns? 120microns?
> How much of that would be clear coat? 40 microns? 60microns?
> Call it 70 microns at most.
> Now take a panel with moderate paint and medium to deep swirls and the odd RDS. The average car shall we say. You are lookin at removing 10+ microns to correct that finish? Say 10 micrsons as a base figure and you have 70 microns of clear, that means you've just removed 1/7th of the clear? Now I don't know weather its just me but that seems like a large abount of paint.


Are you really taking that much off with each polish though? Have you researched this or are these educated guesses?


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## Eddy (Apr 13, 2008)

I don't think you remove 10 microns of paint on a normal correction???


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## VIPER (May 30, 2007)

There is another angle to consider with filling products; I sometimes think on here that everyone assumes every single member has clear coated finishes and new cars with plenty of thickness - granted the vast majority do, but quite a lot (including myself) have much older cars, 21 years old in my case, where the paint is often single stage and after years or even decades of love and attention, has had the negative 'by-product' effect of making the paint thinner and thinner over time. Now if you want to preserve the originality of the factory paint, then machining to a 100% finish might not be an option, simply because you don't have enough thickness to play with safely, so good filling products can 'find' you that last 10-20% that you've had to leave due to not wanting to make the paint perilously thin.


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## Guest (Jan 27, 2010)

I'm going by what I've seen int he past in terms of measuing paint before and after with writups on this forum etc.


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## chillly (Jun 25, 2009)

Nout wrong with a quick fix of srp to to hide those fine wash scratches followed by your lsp of choice for protection. Once full correction to your satisfaction has been done I feel a product like srp is all thats needed in most cases imo. How ever If deeper scratches occur then further work might be involved. Im not sure but do most Paint Cleansers have fillers in as well?? And some Lsp,s ?? Nice post OP


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## Auto Finesse (Jan 10, 2007)

Bailes said:


> Right ok then maybe 'ripping' isnt the right word to use. Although if you look at it microscoppically really ripping is the right word. Abrasives are just lubricants with bits of grit that your rubbing around your paintwork 'scratching' layers of paint off.
> Now how much paint would you say the average car has 100 microns? 120microns?
> How much of that would be clear coat? 40 microns? 60microns?
> Call it 70 microns at most.
> Now take a panel with moderate paint and medium to deep swirls and the odd RDS. The average car shall we say. You are lookin at removing 10+ microns to correct that finish? Say 10 micrsons as a base figure and you have 70 microns of clear, that means you've just removed 1/7th of the clear? Now I don't know weather its just me but that seems like a large abount of paint.


Dude you really dont know as much as you think you do, dont you work for a so called "detailing and supplies company"?

For starters an "average" vehicle will have 120-160Mic of paint made up from 3 layers, primer, colour coat & clear coat, 100Mic would be low for a clear coated finish, out of that (lets say 130) your looking at 30-40Mic being clear coat, an "average" paint correction treatment is going to only remove 2-5Mic of clear coat max (we are talking about swirl removal, RDS and other deeper defects may vary) after this if maintained properly a once over with a finishing polish and a finishing pad yearly would be all thats needed this will usually remove sub 1Mic.

Im fully aware of how an abrasive polish works, and its not by ripping chunks off.

And im going by what i have learnt from 10 years in the industry, iv seen cars we have corrected and come back for yearly treatments up to 5 years running with no cause for concern, im not saying fillers dont have a place in detailing or that they are not useful, would just rather people to weigh up the options being properly informed rather than with some silly figures plucked out of the air.


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## Nanoman (Jan 17, 2009)

Interesting post. I have been wondering about using fillers to improve (perception of) correction. 

My car is a 2009 Audi and I'll be taking as many readings as possible from all panels then entering the data into a spreadsheet. Once corrected I'll take as many readings again and enter those into a spreadsheet. I'll then take an average per panel and an overall average which will give an indication of clearcoat removal. I'll post the data up for all to see as I think it would be useful. The car has only very few very light swirls and 1 heavy swirl on the wing about 2" square. I don't expect to be taking more than about 1-3 microns off this.

I'll also do the same thing with the Mrs lexus which is 9 years old and hasn't had a proper 'wash' in it's life. I expect to be taking a few more microns off this. I know the lexus has an avg of about 140 microns except on the bonnet which has been resprayed.

I reckon once corrected it'll the Audi will go at least a year without needing any kind of polish and it does 30k. I reckon the lexus will go a couple of years. Obvisouly fillers will help prolong this but I don't want to remove any more clearcoat than I have to.


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## Auto Finesse (Jan 10, 2007)

You wont get a true average unless you use a laser point and take the reading in the exact same spot all over the car, as microns are so small it will vary a fair bit over something as small as a Cm square.


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## The Cueball (Feb 8, 2007)

james b said:


> For starters an "average" vehicle will have 120-160Mic of paint made up from 3 layers, primer, colour coat & clear coat, 100Mic would be low for a clear coated finish, out of that (lets say 130) your looking at 30-40Mic being clear coat,* an "average" paint correction treatment is going to only remove 2-5Mic of clear coat max* (we are talking about swirl removal, RDS and other deeper defects may vary) after this if maintained properly a once over with a finishing polish and a finishing pad yearly would be all thats needed this will usually remove sub 1Mic.


I am not going to argue with your figures, but do you think that is more from your point of view (an experienced, professional)....

How much clear coat do you think a ham fisted amateur detailer could remove during an "average" correction, as they will not have your skills, tools nor maybe patience and need for perfection???

:thumb:


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## nick.s (Dec 21, 2009)

In my opinion, I guess it depends on the person involved. Some people will be happy with full correction only. Others will be happy with 60/70% and then fill the rest. Others are probably not bothered by correction and are happy to fill at best.

I would imagine that the majority of people would be happy with the middle option. Would be interesting to find out though. 

I for one have yet to give any of my cars full correction, and have always been happy to fill the very minor swirls that I've had remaining after minor correction. However, having seen the immaculate finish that you can achieve with some TLC and hard work, I am going to go for the full correction and maintain with something like SRP or an equivalent. 

I think the old adage 'horses for courses' comes into play very heavily here.

Perhaps a poll could be added or started to indicate who is happy with what?


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## Auto Finesse (Jan 10, 2007)

The Cueball said:


> I am not going to argue with your figures, but do you think that is more from your point of view (an experienced, professional)....
> 
> How much clear coat do you think a ham fisted amateur detailer could remove during an "average" correction, as they will not have your skills, tools nor maybe patience and need for perfection???
> 
> :thumb:


More than likely less as they wont have the confidence or experience to know how far you can actually go safely with what they are working with, most guys i see who get them selfs a DA to do there own vehicle just take the majority of swirls out and round off the RDS and leave it there.

A ham fisted dealership mop a job would likely be more than my figures above.


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## Nanoman (Jan 17, 2009)

james b said:


> You wont get a true average unless you use a laser point and take the reading in the exact same spot all over the car, as microns are so small it will vary a fair bit over something as small as a Cm square.


Law of averages get's quite scientific about 'true' averages so we won't get in to that. It's all to do with the range and number of readings. Most modern cars won't vary too much (there are exceptions - obviously) but it's unlikely you'll get readings that go from 30-500 probably 130-150 is roughly what you'd expect. Not too difficult to get a 'true' average in that range.

Obviously it varies a lot but you'll still get an average. The more readings the better. I'd be doing probably 50-100 readings per panel which would give me a 'better' average. If the number of readings in relation to the range of readings is high enough you'll have a "true average".


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## Auto Finesse (Jan 10, 2007)

Trust me get your paint depth gage and go take some readings across one pannel and see how much they vary.

Its very hard to get a a decent true reading, main thing we do with a PTG is go around the car and see if there is anything untoward, Ie a car reading all over 130-150 then an area of 250+ would indicate a repair etc etc, and also look for any low spots, from maybe polishing out a scratch or alike.

We then get a laser pointer and pic a spot in the centre of our test section, then start testing our polishes and pad combos, after each polish and pad we wait for the area to go back down to the original temp (or there abouts) and take the reading again, we do this checking visually the result and the removal rate, to be fair its the removal rate that is more important than the before and after reading IMO, its all well and good if you have to take 7Mic off, but if your polish and pad are doing that in one hit then its all to easy for it to go wrong, id much rather a slower more controlled removal rate, thats where for me anyway a PTG hold its own.

You will get a rough idea of what you remove from what you area planing to do but id suggest it only be thought of as a rough idea and taken as such.


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## Nanoman (Jan 17, 2009)

james b said:


> Trust me get your paint depth gage and go take some readings across one pannel and see how much they vary.


I've done it. What do you reckon is an average range on a factory original modern car on a single panel?

I don't think there's a wrong or right answer here BTW and I'm not trying to cause an argument. For a start your post count indicates you might have a wee bit more experience than me.


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## Auto Finesse (Jan 10, 2007)

^^ Post count dont mean s**t  but i do do this every day as my full time job.

It will depend hugely on a lot of factors, i can have a guess, i need to know:

Make, model, year, colour.

But it will only be a guess, iv seen identical cars and the paint thickness have been on rough average 20-30Mic apart, iv also seen identical cars and the paint thickness has been pretty much exactly the same.


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## Nanoman (Jan 17, 2009)

So and average of 130-150 per panel is an average of averages on a modern factory original car then..?

Anyway - back on topic. Depends on how much correction you want to go for, how much depth you have to play with and personal opinion. I'm a mix of correction and fillers to prolong the finish type guy.


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## Auto Finesse (Jan 10, 2007)

Thats an average car, BMW Audi, Vauxhal Ford, Its not an exact statement, just an example, and a bit of a clearer understanding for you guys as to what % of a total thickness is actually clearcoat, (the OP was stating that of a total thickness of 100Mic 60 of that is likely to be clear coat is way way off, you would be lucky to have half that)

some of the exotics we work on will have 200+ right up to 300Mic, mainly down to allowing for hand finishing (like Astons that are flatted off after paint) and we also have Posi 200a's what can give us a split layer reading giving us a bit more insight in to what % of the total thickness is the clear coat but its not a failsafe, nor is it 100% accurate, but its helpful, also the ability to get readings on plastic and other non metal panels (no other PTG can do this).


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## Nanoman (Jan 17, 2009)

james b said:


> Thats an average car, BMW Audi, Vauxhal Ford, Its not an exact statement, just an example, and a bit of a clearer understanding for you guys as to what % of a total thickness is actually clearcoat, (the OP was stating that of a total thickness of 100Mic 60 of that is likely to be clear coat is way way off, you would be lucky to have half that)
> 
> some of the exotics we work on will have 200+ right up to 300Mic, mainly down to allowing for hand finishing (like Astons that are flatted off after paint) and we also have Posi 200a's what can give us a split layer reading giving us a bit more insight in to what % of the total thickness is the clear coat but its not a failsafe, nor is it 100% accurate, but its helpful, also the ability to get readings on plastic and other non metal panels (no other PTG can do this).


Yeah. I think some people think "It's got 150 microns so I've got 70 to play with." Even on the Mrs lexus with 9 years of abuse I wouldn't want to be taking more than a few microns off the top. 1 or 2 RDS might need a bit more but only in small areas.


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## christian900se (Nov 10, 2009)

grantwils said:


> Yeah. I think some people think "It's got 150 microns so I've got 70 to play with." Even on the Mrs lexus with 9 years of abuse I wouldn't want to be taking more than a few microns off the top. 1 or 2 RDS might need a bit more but only in small areas.


Exactly. If you properly polish a car initially and remove a few microns, the subsequent finishing polishes used to keep it swirl free remove only a fraction of a micron to keep the paint looking perfect.


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## Bigpikle (May 21, 2007)

interesting discussion here I think....

As always, as James and Viper have said, its about using the right tools for the job and for your objectives for the car. Hiding/filling marks/swirls with a 1 step product can have several benefits:

1. an old car with paint you want to keep on the car
2. thin paint you dont want to thin out even further
3. a quick/easy 1 step 'clean up' job that's low cost

Its something I have wondered about with regard to my own cars, but I also have to agree with James' point about the need for regular correction. Once corrected, you really shouldnt need to do it again for years if you maintain the car properly, unless of course a freak incident occurs. For example, my A3 was corrected fully when I got it >2.5 years ago and has had only a light finishing polish since then exactly as James described and regular use of paint cleaners to keep the gloss. Its still >90% swirl free. My 3 year old Saab has only been corrected once in its life (last Autumn) and before that only had very light finishing grade products used. Both still have plenty of paint left and still look great - when clean  

The time you get into issues with pint thickness is with hack jobs that remove too much paint, a lack of ongoing care that leads to regular abrasive polishing being required and with cars that have exceptionally thin paint for whatever reason. I am very much against unnecessary paint removal and often bite my (posting) tongue when reading about some of the things performed in the name of detailing, and would happily use products that hide imperfections rather than removing paint, if that was what the job or customer required.


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