# What do you do when you customer's car won't start?



## Merlin7t (Dec 20, 2010)

Hi all.

I run a small team of mobile valeters . We offer a return to showroom condition service predominantly using Auto Glym products.

I have been a reader of this board for several months and have found it a great source of information. A recent experience has me wondering whether there is anyone here who has had had something similar to this happen:

A SAAB 93 Vector (2003) customer asked that I give his car a full valet as he had just bought it.

Space was tight near his property so we moved the car to my driveway. Within minutes it began to rain so we erected a marquee but the car would not start. I wanted to move the car undercover so we could continue work. There were plenty of lights showing on the dash and lots of whirring sounds when the ignition was turned on; but nothing from the starter motor. I used a passive supply from my BMW and the SAAB started first time. The valet progressed as normal and we returned the car to the customer.

The next day the customer advised that 2 important computer controllers had been knocked out by the jump start and that I should now pay £1100 to get the parts replaced.

My PL insurance and Motor Traders insurance both say that this sort of incident is not covered.

What would you have done when faced with a car that would not start?


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## -damon- (Aug 19, 2010)

i worked for a company and the headgasket went on a car that we valeted but the customer was very reasonable and took no action,it all depends on whether the customer can prove its your fault.


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## justina3 (Jan 11, 2008)

guess its up to him to prove that what action you took damaged the units have you tried ringing a saab dealer elsewhere and run the events passed them ie would a jump start knock out modules. 

sounds like the car had issues already with lights on, any car we touch with lights on we ring the customer before we even move it and get his or her concent that there is or may be a fault on the car. we only take this action as like you have had many similar conversations with customers over the years.


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## Merlin7t (Dec 20, 2010)

*I did what the SAAB video suggested.*






The lights on the dash were the standard pre start check lights. Nothing appeared to be untoward.


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## Guest (Dec 22, 2010)

I would check on the SAAB forums the validity of his claims first and foremost, he could be trying to pull a fast one. SAAB should pay more attention when making their cars if a jump start can damage components so easily.

I suppose going by the book, if the car wouldn't start in the future it would be more appropriate to telephone/contact the customer instantly and explain that his battery is flat/defective and how he would like to proceed, before you do anything which could be seen as causing the faults/problems.


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## gordonpuk (Mar 14, 2010)

I think anyone who's worked in a service industry working with the general
public will recognise this scenario, you could change a wiper blade and if two
days later the clutch went it would be your fault because 'it was alright before you worked on it'
I'd ask for the Saab dealer to put in writing, details of the problem, costings and an explanation
of how the damage was supposedly done by a jump-start.


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## Mr_Scisco (Oct 22, 2009)

Bit of a grey area you are in fella. Sounds like he could be trying you on fro a fast one.
On the other hand she's tight


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## justina3 (Jan 11, 2008)

gordonpuk said:


> I think anyone who's worked in a service industry working with the general
> public will recognise this scenario, you could change a wiper blade and if two
> days later the clutch went it would be your fault because 'it was alright before you worked on it'
> 
> amen to that some of the attempted claims i have heard over the years still make me shake my head.


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## Beau Technique (Jun 21, 2010)

If you did no wet work on the engine area then its a fault with the car end of.
Plenty have as already explained used the "it worked fine until you touched it" line but if youve not done anything to disrupt those said components then unfortunately fo your client, they have a buggered car, end of.


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## paulrs2000 (Oct 22, 2009)

gordonpuk said:


> I think anyone who's worked in a service industry working with the general
> public will recognise this scenario, you could change a wiper blade and if two
> days later the clutch went it would be your fault because 'it was alright before you worked on it'.


Thats spot on mate,i dont know how many times ive heard that one!


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## beginner101 (Jan 19, 2010)

you prob knocked out DICE (Dashboard Integrated Control Electronics)Controls lighting, heating, wipers etc and TWICE (Theft Warning Integrated Control Electronics)Controls alarm, security, doors etc, they both link it the canbus network and that is a tech2 job to devorce and re-marry to the car (not a quick change and swap) (a dealer job )


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## Nanoman (Jan 17, 2009)

How do you know he didn't do it himself beforehand? He could either pay the £1100 quid and have a dirty car or pay for a valet and end up with a clean car and his £1100 problem fixed.

I'd call round Saab dealers and ask how likely it is that a jump start would cause this problem. If it is likely to be your fault and you think there's a good chance you screwed up pay it. If you are certain the guy is pulling your leg and trying to con you tell him to run and jump. 

I was once taught that customers are lying, theiving, cheating, robbing, *******s. I don't think that's true at all for 99% although there are a few. I've also heard it the other way for salesmen and again I think it's not true at all for 99% although there are a few.

It's all about Karma if you ask me. Do what you feel is right but don't let someone take the **** out of you. If he's conning you he'll get what he deserves. If you take the **** you'll get what you deserve.


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## cheechy (Nov 23, 2006)

I do know on a lot of modern cars that jump starting is not advised for the reason already set out by your customer - however I'm not sure about the scenario with Saab unfortunately.

Agree with a previous poster that you would have to get in writing exactly what it is that they think you have done to damage said components. This though could work either way - you may have to though put it down to an expensive lesson learned but in future you charge the customer for any time wasted by a dodgy car!


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## justina3 (Jan 11, 2008)

we should open a thread for the daftest attempted claim might be a laugh


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## Merlin7t (Dec 20, 2010)

Thanks to all for your various comments and info.

This particular customer asserts knowledge of the law and states emphatically that he gave no authority for me to jump start the vehicle. He also states that had I asked to perform a jump start he would have declined as I am not a qualified mechanic.

If I do not agree to settle in full and with immediate effect he will take me to court.

Nice customer.


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## PugIain (Jun 28, 2006)

I might sue my Dad,I jumped his car and it popped the fuse for my washer pump.
Sounds like the guy is abit of a clever dick,Me thinks he already knew it had a problem.


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## Buck (Jan 16, 2008)

Merlin7t said:


> Thanks to all for your various comments and info.
> 
> This particular customer asserts knowledge of the law and states emphatically that he gave no authority for me to jump start the vehicle. He also states that had I asked to perform a jump start he would have declined as I am not a qualified mechanic.
> 
> ...


Merlin

Call his bluff - tell him you have spoken to a number of SAAB dealerships who advise that there was an existing fault for a jump start to cause such an issue and you will not be paying.


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## Shiny (Apr 23, 2007)

Merlin7t said:


> Thanks to all for your various comments and info.
> 
> This particular customer asserts knowledge of the law and states emphatically that he gave no authority for me to jump start the vehicle. He also states that had I asked to perform a jump start he would have declined as I am not a qualified mechanic.
> 
> ...


Don't say you won't pay, but let them know you have to establish that your negligence was the cause of the damage before any liability will be confirmed.

I would insist that a mutually agreed independent Saab specialist inspects the car and determines the likely cause of the failure. perhaps also ask for contact details of the previous owner to confirm that the problems were not already present. he shouldn't have any problem with this if he has nothing to hide.

I also wouldn't accept just one repair estimate.

do you have any legal expenses cover attached to your insurance? some have a legal helpline which may give you some advice.


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## centenary (Sep 5, 2010)

Hmmm. Im not coming down on anyone's side here (either the customer's or the business) but, all businesses have a statutory 'duty of care' when a customer is buying or paying for a service.

Unfortunately, I took my wife's zafie to the local Vauxhall dealer for its annual service and cambelt change.

The dealer, who has serviced the car from new, phoned me to say that during the cambelt change, one of the tensioner bolts had striped the thread from the block 

I asked them what they were going to do? They said 'get you to pay for it'!

I said no I dont think so. Have a word with yer main man cos someone at your garage who did the cambelt last time must have overtightened the bolt. Either that or the mechanic currently working on the car just gave it an extra hard tug when trying to undo it this time.

In the meantime, I made other enquiries regarding my position and found out about the duty of care aspect.

The garage contacted me again and said they'd do nothing and I was to pay over a grand for the repair and service. I said service, no probs, I'll pay that but the rest....... I told them they had a duty of care as laid down in statute (its on the you gov website) etc, etc.

Anyway, after a couple of calls they agreed to cover the labour and I'd pay for parts so I ended up paying about 400 quid while the labour 'cost' them 500 quid. A reasonable compromise I thought.

So, I'd check your position but, if push comes to shove try and reach some deal with the customer. 

Beep, beep :driver:


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## dubnut71 (Jul 25, 2006)

To the OP, I applaud your customers understanding of the law but unless he's a trained lawyer/solicitor/barrister then he may well be getting his legal position from fat eric down the pub or an internet forum (shudder the thought).

Give these guys a call http://www.consumerdirect.gov.uk/

They advised me in a similar set of circumstances and they will give a fair and impartial view (free), on exactly what the law says in the circumstances you detail above. Legal advice before you take any further action or engage in any further discussion with the client is vital.

It feel very unfair to be accused of something like this , particularly when the actions you may have taken were ultimately for the benefit of the client.
Detailers like any other small businessmen are prey for this type of accusation, protect yourself, get proper legal advice and find out where the balance of proof lies and proceed accordingly.
Don't give in to unfair and unsubstantiable demands like this.


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## DW58 (Nov 27, 2010)

How did he start the car to remove it from your premises if there was so much damage? Why didn't he spot the damage there and then? All questions he needs to provide valid answers for.

I can't help wondering if the client knew about this situation all along and was looking for a smart way to get it repaired, i.e. blaming you. Put it this way, I'd like to see him prove that jump starting his car caused the damage.


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## slim_boy_fat (Jun 23, 2006)

^^ OP said he/they returned the car to the customer after the valeting.


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## DW58 (Nov 27, 2010)

Ah, my error - thx.


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## Merlin7t (Dec 20, 2010)

As part of the service we offer, I collect and deliver back to customer's their cars following a full valet. My Motor trader Insurance was very expensive but only covers accident damage, not accidental damage.

I have replied to the guy by email and refuted his claims citing that several dealers that I have spoken with say that there are numerous ways for SAAB 93's to loose their CIM and ICM modules. The fact that the battery had a total failure a few minutes after collecting the car suggests that there was an underlying problem that took out a whole series of components before we had even started the valet.

Whilst I am not going to lay down and take the blame for the electrical problems I am only prepared to use true facts in my defence. 

I believe that the onus is now on the customer to prove that it was our actions alone that caused the failure of his car. I will of course follow the advice offered here and check out the duty of care situation and the free legal advice.


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## Ross1308 (Sep 3, 2010)

Merlin7t said:


> As part of the service we offer, I collect and deliver back to customer's their cars following a full valet. My Motor trader Insurance was very expensive but only covers accident damage, not accidental damage.
> 
> I have replied to the guy by email and refuted his claims citing that several dealers that I have spoken with say that there are numerous ways for SAAB 93's to loose their CIM and ICM modules. The fact that the battery had a total failure a few minutes after collecting the car suggests that there was an underlying problem that took out a whole series of components before we had even started the valet.
> 
> ...


Working for an insurance company i can imagine how you feel mate, I speak to lots of people everyday who are accused of different things, mainly hitting other vehicles. To be honest the guy can threaten you with all the legal proceedings he wants at the end of the day where is his proof you damaged the vehicle ?

In your situation i would pay for an Independant SAAB Dealer to inspect the vehicle tbh its probably not gonna be cheap, but a full inspection of the vehicles electrical system by SAAB will determine what caused it.

In simple terms, the guy has no evidence. The court will tell him that as well. Tell him on his bike. SAAB Are renound for bad electrics anyway, my brother had a 93 that was in out of SAAB more times than a whores draws go up and down.

Hope this helps
Ross


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## Grizzle (Jul 12, 2006)

I would have call'd the customer advising it wouldnt start.


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## bgm46 (Dec 23, 2008)

justina3 said:


> we should open a thread for the daftest attempted claim might be a laugh


Cracking idea :thumb:


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## gordonpuk (Mar 14, 2010)

I'm a bit surprised that the customer never called Merlin7t first thing to say he had
problems, to ask if he'd disconnected anything.
The car seemed OK on collection and the customer managed to get the car
booked in to a Saab main dealer next day for diagnosis, I've never managed to get a car booked 
in next day! I'd like a look at the invoice they supplied for the diagnosis work, the original not
a photo copy.


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## dannyson (Aug 31, 2010)

j03y-1 said:


> i've been accused of stealing an audi a3 rear headrest,a mercedes drivers floor mat and one of them sock's that go over the end of golf clubs


Head cover ......


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## Shiny (Apr 23, 2007)

Ross1308 said:


> In simple terms, the guy has no evidence. The court will tell him that as well. Tell him on his bike. SAAB Are renound for bad electrics anyway, my brother had a 93 that was in out of SAAB more times than a whores draws go up and down.


I'd have to disagree with this i'm afraid. As i see it it, if it turns out that there is a possibility that jump starting the car can cause the damage, then the Saab owner has a very valid case. The only defence that i can see to this is to prove that the problem existed prior to the jump start which may prove very difficult to do.

I have dealt with a number of similar claims under Service Indemnity for motor traders and in nearly every case (other than those extreme cases like mentioned such as claiming for a new clutch following a wiper blade change) the Insurers have ended up paying out a claim, even when the motor trader was quite adamant that they didn't cause the damage, as they have been very difficult to defend.

Playing devil's advocate here, the Saab chap may be actually totally honest in all this and his car may have been genuinely damaged by the jump start, which as he quite rightly says, he didn't authorise as he had contracted someone to clean a car, not to carry out any mechanical duties. Everyone seems to have jumped to conclusions here. I'm sure if the Saab owner was a member here and put up a post saying "I bought a car, paid for a valet and the valeters jump started it without my permission and damaged etc..." there would be host of posts on here saying "sue them" etc..

Please don't take what i have said the wrong way Merlin7t, i'm really just trying to lay it out as it is.

My recommendation would be as i mentioned earlier, tell the customer that you wish to look into this further and then seek some legal advice. You will probably need to mutually agree to appoint an independent inspection by a Saab specialist and then, if it turns out you don't have a leg to stand on, seek alternative estimates for repair. The Saab owner has a duty to mitigate his losses, not just demand the price on the fist estimate he has obtained. It may turn out that jump starting contributed to the damaged, rather than completely causing the damage, in which case you will have to contribute to cost of repair, rather than pay the total cost of repair.


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## Bero (Mar 9, 2008)

lots of good advice above. I would also get a copy of the Saab manual and see what it actually says if you have a flat battery!

If you did what it says then great - if it says UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES jump start the car if it suffers a flat battery then you position is not so good.


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## Shiny (Apr 23, 2007)

http://pdfservicemanual.com/automot...l-guide?dcdnd=2000-saab-9-3-owners-manual.pdf - page 163 doesn't say there is anything you need to disable before jump starting, but it does say that a poor earth may cause electrical component failure.

It looks like from later on, page 288, that the DICE/TWICE has a diagnostic port for fault codes, perhaps a Saab specialist can diagnose the fault/failure and determine if they are in anyway related to the jump start?


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## Johnboy82 (Nov 12, 2010)

Shiny said:


> http://pdfservicemanual.com/automot...l-guide?dcdnd=2000-saab-9-3-owners-manual.pdf - page 163 doesn't say there is anything you need to disable before jump starting, but it does say that a poor earth may cause electrical component failure.
> 
> It looks like from later on, page 288, that the DICE/TWICE has a diagnostic port for fault codes, perhaps a Saab specialist can diagnose the fault/failure and determine if they are in anyway related to the jump start?


I had a similar problem with my own car a few years ago and as mentioned above, it was a poor earth connection. i was getting all the lights on the dash except the battery light. ended up having to earth it myself to get it started. as to the OP - as has been said above - get an independant report that will show what has happened and more importantly why it has happened. best was forward IMO


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## Karmann (Apr 5, 2010)

My m8 owns an MOT station and a car came in for mot it failed and they said they were going to get the work done somewhere else ,they broke down on the way and had to be towed in , engine had seized . The other garage phoned my m8 and said that the customers had said he had stolen the oil and water ,lol . It went no further as the other garage used common sense and told his customer that an mot test station does not steal coolant and oil.


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## markcoznottz (Nov 13, 2005)

Sort of begs the question how do the Saab dealership start a vehicle with a flat battery?. I would speak with the service manager. Simple answer is they use either jump leads, or more usual, a jump pack.


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## David (Apr 6, 2006)

> A SAAB 93 Vector (2003) customer asked that I give his car a full valet as he had just bought it


that, there is potentially your saving grace


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## ianFRST (Sep 19, 2006)

how did he get the car booked in AND diagnosed the next day?? we (an independent garage) took a focus back to ford last monday, and they diagnosed a problem and rang us back today. also dropped a merc off to main dealer yesterday, and the earliest they can even plug a scanner into it, is the new year!!!!!

id say call his bluff.

also, id call shiny. get propper insurance!! it really does amaze me that you dont already have cover!!


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## Shiny (Apr 23, 2007)

To be fair though Ian, Service Indemnity is not usually covered under the Tradesman type policies that many people opt for, as it is specific to Motor Trade Liability (not to be confused with Road Risks) which is a lot more expensive.


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## dubnut71 (Jul 25, 2006)

ianFRST said:


> how did he get the car booked in AND diagnosed the next day?? we (an independent garage) took a focus back to ford last monday, and they diagnosed a problem and rang us back today. also dropped a merc off to main dealer yesterday, and the earliest they can even plug a scanner into it, is the new year!!!!!
> 
> id say call his bluff.
> 
> also, id call shiny. get propper insurance!! it really does amaze me that you dont already have cover!!


Concur with Ian here, my training partner is a senior tech at BMW and could get my car into the workshop in about 3 days time but within the day? forget about it. It either didn't happen or its his "mate" doing the diagnostic and that would make me very sceptical.


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## Shiny (Apr 23, 2007)

I can't see that the OP mentioned a main dealer. It could have been the AA or RAC that diagnosed the fault and he then phoned a garage for a repair price.

Best not to jump to conclusions.


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## gordonpuk (Mar 14, 2010)

Shiny said:


> I can't see that the OP mentioned a main dealer. It could have been the AA or RAC that diagnosed the fault and he then phoned a garage for a repair price.
> 
> Best not to jump to conclusions.


I could be wrong (as I'm sure someone will point out )
But isn't tech 2 diagnostics main dealer only and not read by a generic
reader as it's Saab specific?


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## beginner101 (Jan 19, 2010)

tech2 is saab speccific, unit costs about £3500, software about £500, then TIS2000 £500


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## The Doctor (Sep 11, 2007)

I would be very suprised if jump starting the car has caused this fault. 

I am assuming from what you say the car will start if you go to it with the jump leads now? If so then theres no ECU fault and its a bad earth or connection somewhere. Sounds daft but are the battery terminals tight? If connecting jump leads is starting the car then something around where your attaching the jump leads is loose. A car with a bust ECU wont start with or without jump leads.


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## bigmc (Mar 22, 2010)

beginner101 said:


> tech2 is saab speccific, unit costs about £3500, software about £500, then TIS2000 £500


And vauxhall and you can read codes with a generic reader just not interrogation of control modules.


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## beginner101 (Jan 19, 2010)

with the correct card inserted


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