# Spray Sealants - The Facts as per Caledonia



## caledonia (Sep 13, 2008)

Following on from this conformation about Opti seal.

http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=124619&highlight=the+facts

I was currently conducting tests on spray sealants. But my finding where complete in some areas. But not in others. It would only be fair to try most spray topping sealants and test them fully prior to posting my findings.
I have a back ground in applying wax, including blending lots of different varieties. No car related products. So certain issues with these sealants always concerned me.

Solvents and alcohols are used in the thinning and application of waxes, in general life. Whether this is to build up a finish or simply to refine it to the perfect sheen.

Now as most not all of these Spray sealant use one or the other to aid in the curing process. In turn causing these sealants to flash within a few seconds, as the vapours are lighter than air and easily dissipate.

My thought on this was the spray sealant had to etch the lower wax layer to create a chemical bond over the wax. So in turn effecting the wax below. But also is dependant on the strength and type of solvents used.

So I started a few tests. Now the purpose of this post is not to discredit any brands or make other brands out better than the next. So please take this in the context that it is meant.

First up I decided to try a few waxes different brands and makes to see how they compared. I took a small piece of these waxes in the natural state and applied a few sprays of the spray sealants to them. I gentle moved the liquid around the wax with a gentle swaying action.

Here are some of the findings.

Wax natural.










Sprayed with sealant.
After 5 seconds.










10 Seconds.









15 Seconds.









As you can see the wax has completely broken down. Within this test. If you look closely you can see oil floating at the top of the liquid.
It later becomes more noticeable in this shot as I am no longer swaying the liquid.
Right in the centre there is an oily liquid present within the solution and only remnants of the wax remain.










Ok now for a section of cured waxes.
I applied a thin layer and left to to cure 24Hrs.










Again sprayed different sealants to this layer. I moved the sealant over this cured layer once and then laid the dish down. So the remnants of the sealant where not in contact with the wax.

After a few seconds again. Oils started to form on the cured layer.










Now this would normally not be noticed as most of these products are spray on wipe off. So the oil would be wiped across the panel beening buffed. In turn adding to the look and finish. This would also aid beading and sheeting. In turn making the user extremely satisfied with the finish. But as you can see this is not the whole story.

This then brought me to think How much of the wax was lost in the wiping off or buffing??

Next test.
Set up a board with again various waxes. I sectioned this off and applied the wax quite thick. Reason for this was to highlight ridges in the cured wax. Similar to a record, where the ridges run continuous though the test area.










This was left initially 24 Hrs. But I later decoded to leave the wax a further 48 Hrs. As the wax was think and I wanted to make sure the layer was fully cured.
I then sprayed the cured wax area with various spray sealants. I did not wipe as this would have removed the ridges and possibly the wax layer. After a few second I raised the test so it was vertical and the spray sealant ran off the cured wax layer.

After a few seconds of the sealants running off. It was again apparent that the sealants where effecting the wax layer. The cured wax was slowly breaking down again










This can be see further in this picture as the wax comtinued to fall apart and dissolve with the solvent in these sealants.



















After approx 20 seconds.










What was apparent in the last picture was the ridges had also disappeared and this concerned me further.
The test was put to the side for a few hour and them examined. By this time the sealants had flashed off and test was dry once more.

Due to it being later in the evening picture where taking under artificial lighting
But it was apparent that there was no wax left. It had again been totally dissolved with the spray sealants. No no more ridging present within the sealant side.



















I decided to investigate this under day light so left to the following day.

Final test results and findings.
These picture where taken in daylight and although there is very slight remnants of wax left. It is debatable where this would have been remove buy wiping when the wax was being dissolved and distributed across the panel.




























Now where I believe this shows that these product are very detrimental to wax. I conclude that these products when sprayed on top for a wax either cure or in its natural state have a very significant effect on this. So in short they are not wax toppers. But dissolve waxes and simply replace themselves as the main LSP.

Wiping these product dry would only distribute the oils across the panel and as already mentioned aid in the visual effect that the sealant leaves behind.
Last picture which only confirms by thoughts are the remnants of the run off. As the sealant run off the wax. I had wiped up the excess to save staining of the work surface. But the following day after a finger swipe across this run off showed the oils and left over remnants of the wax layer.










I hope people will take this test as it was meant. Not to discredit certain products. But to highlight the draw backs.
I am continuing my test with different product and also QD. So I hope I can update these results later as the results come clearer.
Products used within these test where. Opti Seal, Z-8, Z-CS, Red Mist. Some products fared better than others. But at this time I am not prepared to names the worst offenders.

Thanks for reading and all question welcome.
Gordon.


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## Jesse74 (Jul 19, 2008)

Cheers for the test Gordon! Ya think there would be any affect the other way around (spray seal, then wax)? That's the way I've always done it with OS.


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## VIPER (May 30, 2007)

Very interesting indeed, thanks for taking the time to do this experiment and post it up :thumb:

If I'm honest I've always slightly questioned the details that apply the wax layer then finish off with a spray product of this type as the 'final' step. In my mind it wasn't so much that it would be detrimental to the underlying wax layer in this way (although now it is after reading that), but just that surely it's both affecting the natural gassing off period, and that you only get the beading qualities of the uppermost sprayed sealant layer and not that of the wax.


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## Bigpikle (May 21, 2007)

Gordon

Thanks for taking the time and effort to conduct an in-depth test like this. It certainmly appears that these spray sealants are removing much or all of the wax beneath, even when used over a cured wax 

I've long been skeptical of people adding layer after layer of product, and the famous 'final Z-8/RM wipedown' is obviously taking off most or all of the very wax they just spent hours applying....


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## MidlandsCarCare (Feb 18, 2006)

Thanks for this Gordon - very interesting reading indeed, and I'd LOVE to know which the worst offender was if you fancy sending me a PM 

Also, how far does this go? Is it just wax? Would an oily glaze/pre cleaner also be dissolved in this way? We all assume acrylic bases are unaffected, but is this the case?

I guess one thing this does highlight, is just HOW GOOD these products look on their own. It seems that they should be used as standalone LSP's, with a suitable cleaner base underneath, such as Poli Seal.

Also, does the durability of the wax, or composition of it make a difference? Which waxes did you test? Do Colli and 1000P suffer from this too?


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## DIESEL DAVE (Jul 26, 2007)

So best use spray and buff sealants only over cured sealants ?
And only use spray WOWA sealants over waxes ?


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## badly_dubbed (Dec 11, 2008)

intresting stuff Gordon,

do you think its the solvents based in the sprays that are destroying the wax layers?

is there any way around this problem?

Davy


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## MidlandsCarCare (Feb 18, 2006)

Also, I guess products which are designed to work together won't be affected in this way, like the Blackfire kit I have just taken delivery of. I believe that the 'Deep Gloss Spray Sealant' is formulated to work WITH the Midnight Sun Ivory Wax, so it can depend, I guess?


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## badly_dubbed (Dec 11, 2008)

RussZS said:


> Also, I guess products which are designed to work together won't be affected in this way, like the Blackfire kit I have just taken delivery of. I believe that the 'Deep Gloss Spray Sealant' is formulated to work WITH the Midnight Sun Ivory Wax, so it can depend, I guess?


thats a very good question,

same goes for Dodo SN and Red mist....


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## MidlandsCarCare (Feb 18, 2006)

Regarding the Blacfire WAX

*In 2005, the manufacturers of Blackfire set out to remedy this problem and produce a carnauba wax that would bond properly to Blackfire Wet Diamond All Finish Paint Protection. Over twenty different formulas were tested over a period of eighteen months, all combining varying amounts of high quality Brazilian ivory carnauba wax with the new super-polymer*

Would this 'super polymer' act like an 'acrylic base'


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## Bigpikle (May 21, 2007)

I would be skeptical of that Russ - they are all just the same alcohol/solvent mixes, except for water based stuff like OCW etc...


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## MidlandsCarCare (Feb 18, 2006)

badly_dubbed said:


> thats a very good question,
> 
> same goes for Dodo SN and Red mist....


I guess it would depend on the composition of the wax. Blackfire have obviously spent a lot of time getting their kit to work 'together' and their wax is the only one that will bond properly to their sealant - everything else struggles because of its slickness.

I think because SN doesn't have this 'synthetic/artificial' element, it possibly wouldn't work in the same way, but I'm sure Dom will clarify.


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## Bigpikle (May 21, 2007)

its just marketing text Russ - does it make it fact?


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## MidlandsCarCare (Feb 18, 2006)

Well I've seen their claims supported by end users on US forums, particularly around the slickness of the sealant, but anyway, I'm going off topic...


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## Ross (Apr 25, 2007)

Opti seal smells likes IPA so I would imagine that would be one of the worst offenders.


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## badly_dubbed (Dec 11, 2008)

this is staggering.

i will be trying this with a few sprays and waxes tomorrow


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## MidlandsCarCare (Feb 18, 2006)

Come to think of it... not many manufacturers make a spray sealant AND a 'wax' which are designed to complement each other.


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## Mirror Finish Details (Aug 21, 2008)

Cheers Gordon.

Interesting reading.


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## ads2k (Jul 12, 2006)

Thanks for the review Gordon :thumb:.

Very interesting reading and certainly highlights that you don't need to top your wax unless you want it to dissolve before your very eyes :lol: and waste all that hard work.

But I think most of these 'sealant' sprays are marketed as 'standalone' products in there own right eg. no underlying product has to be used and they offer some form of protection all be it limited.

Will be interested to see when you have continued your testing which product was the best in 'your' opinion 

Thanks again.


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## Ross (Apr 25, 2007)

I am surprised about Z8 I love Z8


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## MidlandsCarCare (Feb 18, 2006)

RosswithaOCD said:


> I am surprised about Z8 I love Z8


You still can, just no need to wax underneath it! Or, use it with sealants/Zaino...


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## Ross (Apr 25, 2007)

RussZS said:


> You still can, just no need to wax underneath it! Or, use it with sealants/Zaino...


I love going over a wax with it.Right back to the Zaino:lol:


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## MidlandsCarCare (Feb 18, 2006)

RosswithaOCD said:


> I love going over a wax with it.Right back to the Zaino:lol:


But have you ever tried it on its own? If this test is correct, it suggests that Z8 on its own is good enough, so if you're happy, use it as it is...

I seem to remember Alex (ahaydock) doing a detail with NFS then Red Mist, and that looked awesome...


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## Ross (Apr 25, 2007)

TBH I only really use Z8 once a month or so


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## badly_dubbed (Dec 11, 2008)

RosswithaOCD said:


> TBH I only really use Z8 once a month or so


lol the wax was gone in what 15 seconds so whether you use once a month or ten times gone is gone!

i just got more Z8 aswell........dammit!

:lol:


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## MidlandsCarCare (Feb 18, 2006)

badly_dubbed said:


> lol the wax was gone in what 15 seconds so whether you use once a month or ten times gone is gone!
> 
> i just got more Z8 aswell........dammit!
> 
> :lol:


I'd stick to that Quick Finish :lol:


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## Ross (Apr 25, 2007)

I will try some z8 on some Colly 476 tonight to see what happens


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## GazT4R` (Apr 20, 2009)

It will dissolve it.:lol:


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## MidlandsCarCare (Feb 18, 2006)

Will it though...? Colli is a borderline paste sealant... its not exactly natural!

Gordon, which waxes did you test?


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## Ross (Apr 25, 2007)

RussZS said:


> Will it though...? Colli is a borderline paste sealant... its not exactly natural!
> 
> Gordon, which waxes did you test?


I dont want to waste my Dodo waxes:lol:


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## Guest (Jul 16, 2009)

Gordon, that is a fascinating write up - many thanks for taking the time to post :thumb:


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## Bigpikle (May 21, 2007)

just use water based spray top up products - no alcohol or solvents, but of course they might not be as effective as the spray sealants....


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## Ross (Apr 25, 2007)

I think ads is right there desined to be used on there own IE Opti seal ect I am using OS on my alloys and its works great.


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## little john (Jun 10, 2007)

My concern with the test you carried out Gordon is that the products were not really used as they are designed to be used. Waxes are suposed to be applied thinly and buffed to leave a flat surface that will fully cure in 24-48 hours.

The spray sealants as far as I am aware are nearly all spray and buff not designed to be left on the surface to allow the solvents to eat in to what ever is there before, the spreading acction of the wipe spreads the product accross the panel so that the solvent can evaporate quicker leaveing the residue behind. I know ZCS is slighty different but there is still the wipe to spread and aid the evaporation of the solvent so giveing it little time to much away at the wax layers that have been applied.

I think they are designed to soften the wax a little so they can bond but leaveing the sealent in a quantity then allowign it to eat away will just to that. Just like any other solvent, Tardis will eat away at tar if you allow it to soak but a quick wipe and it won't really remove the whole tar spot.


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## VIPER (May 30, 2007)

Bigpikle said:


> just use water based spray top up products - no alcohol or solvents, but of course they might not be as effective as the spray sealants....


Clearkote Quikshine, SP Show Detailer and FK#425 would be good choices for this that shouldn't affect the underlying wax layer as they're all water based.


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## MidlandsCarCare (Feb 18, 2006)

Pit Viper said:


> Clearkote Quikshine, SP Show Detailer and FK#425 would be good choices for this that shouldn't affect the underlying wax layer as they're all water based.


Indeed, along with Optimum Car Wax, Megs Ultimate Quik Wax and Victoria Quik Detail. Maybe we should make a ********** list?


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## GTiHigh (May 7, 2009)

RussZS said:


> Indeed, along with Optimum Car Wax, Megs Ultimate Quik Wax and Victoria Quik Detail. Maybe we should make a ********** list?


^ agree with that Russ... would be good to know what can/can't be used over waxes

....................

Great topic btw, very informative


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## Dipesh (Oct 12, 2007)

Pit Viper said:


> Clearkote Quikshine, SP Show Detailer and FK#425 would be good choices for this that shouldn't affect the underlying wax layer as they're all water based.


Great topic Gordon!

I'm thinking the same as PV here.

I wonder how the spray sealant would react when using over sealant layer rather then a wax layer?

Do you think it would still have the same effects?


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## buff not enuf (Sep 29, 2008)

Is britemax #6 ok to use over wax.


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## MidlandsCarCare (Feb 18, 2006)

buff not enuf said:


> Is britemax #6 ok to use over wax.


I would guess so having used it, but cannot confirm.


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## Blazebro (May 18, 2007)

It's very interesting.

But what about the other way round?????

I'm using Optiseal topped with Chem Guy's Prodetailer with Canauba, would this have the same effect on the Opti Seal layer??????


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## millns84 (Jul 5, 2009)

Blazebro said:


> It's very interesting.
> 
> But what about the other way round?????
> 
> I'm using Optiseal topped with Chem Guy's Prodetailer with Canauba, would this have the same effect on the Opti Seal layer??????


Seconded - I'm using Natty's red over opti-seal and would love to know if I'm wasting time with one of the steps!


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## The Cueball (Feb 8, 2007)

Thanks for this Gordon... very good (and scary) read!!!

I for one would like to see the same test done under 'real' conditions... i.e. the waxes and sealants applied to an actual car, as in a real detail...

I will gladly help out, and submit the Jeep as a test bed if this would help...

But it does seem from this test that some (including me) are wasting time, money and wax in some of our details!!!!!

Cheers....

:thumb:


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## MidlandsCarCare (Feb 18, 2006)

I don't think it will be an issue the other way around, as there are no 'aggressive' solvents in a wax or nuba based QD to eat through the underlying layer - they will just cure on top of what is there.

It's long been said that you 'polish>seal>wax', so this doesn't change. Generally, 'normal' sealants don't sit well on top of waxes, so I guess these solvents are used to bypass that issue, allowing the spray sealants to dissolve the wax, and bond to the paint.

The main man at Optimum has been quite up front about this, but some of these products have been marketed as being able to sit on top of waxes, which this thread now throws into question, with strong supporting evidence.

It doesn't leave these products useless though, it just means we have to use them differently.


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## spitfire (Feb 10, 2007)

Food for though Gordon It actually makes you wonder about any permatations of layering including sealant on sealant.


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## The Cueball (Feb 8, 2007)

spitfire said:


> Food for though Gordon It actually makes you wonder about any permatations of layering including sealant on sealant.


but not girl on girl though????

Sorrry!!!!!!


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## Dodo Factory (Apr 11, 2007)

little john said:


> My concern with the test you carried out Gordon is that the products were not really used as they are designed to be used. Waxes are suposed to be applied thinly and buffed to leave a flat surface that will fully cure in 24-48 hours.
> 
> The spray sealants as far as I am aware are nearly all spray and buff not designed to be left on the surface to allow the solvents to eat in to what ever is there before, the spreading acction of the wipe spreads the product accross the panel so that the solvent can evaporate quicker leaveing the residue behind. I know ZCS is slighty different but there is still the wipe to spread and aid the evaporation of the solvent so giveing it little time to much away at the wax layers that have been applied.
> 
> I think they are designed to soften the wax a little so they can bond but leaveing the sealent in a quantity then allowign it to eat away will just to that. Just like any other solvent, Tardis will eat away at tar if you allow it to soak but a quick wipe and it won't really remove the whole tar spot.


This is basically the nub of the matter.

Unfortunately, Gordon was testing spray sealants on perhaps 50-100 microns of 'hazed' wax residue, not the buffed coatings you'll find on your car. That's about 1 micron thick and can obviously cure better in 24 hours. Most of this residue is, of course, removed.

And as John says, the solvents in a spray sealant aren't left to dwell on the surface. You can see how quickly Red Mist flashes off... the solvents are in very short contact with the paint.

However, we have always known the danger of applying spray sealants and other solvent rich products over freshly applied LSPs, hence why we give the 24-48 hour warning with Red Mist.

The most interesting suggestion here is something we have offered as advice ourselves in the past - apply the Red Mist in a couple of layers (it has almost instant curing) below the wax.

Spray sealants are perhaps at their most useful when used as a quick and convenient substitute coating for a wax or other LSP, perhaps as there is little time.

They also work well as a quick 'gloss and protection' top up after a weekly maintenance wash as we don't advocate putting on another wax layer due to the risk of sealing in contamination. A wipe with a solvent based and relatively lubricious spray sealant will cleanse a bit better and be less likely to seal dirt in.

But like most products, care must be taken in how they are used. However, Gordon's test is unfortunately a little misleading and hardly the 'scare story' some may see it as


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## caledonia (Sep 13, 2008)

Well signed off for a bit to spend some family time and so many questions.

Well let me start once more by saying. I do not wish this to turn into a witch hunt, as a few posts have directed towards this.

I am going to try and answer every ones question in turn. But since Dom as commented and he has the right to do so as one of the brands in question. I will answer him first.
Please be patient as I can t see me answering all the question tonight.

Don and John.
Where I agree with both of uses as the wax layer was much thicker than would be applied to a car. For this reason The test was maintained in a steady temperature of 67F and a relatively low humidity as in approx 35 to 37% for 72Hrs. Now given this I would collectively say the wax would have cured. The volume of wax as in the natural state was again worked out at approximately the volume used to apply to a panel of a car. Probably slightly more. As for the volume of sealant used again 3 mists. I tried to mirror this as much as possible.
As for the build up of wax and the need to buff this I cannot see the relevance in this, as buffing only removes excess produce and enhances the gloss of the finish. Making this uniform and levelling the finish in turn aiding the true finish to the panel. As stated it was only for a visual aspect of this. I do agree contact time wax with solvent would be slightly increased again due to not being wiped over. But on the later test panel tests in question it was misted and then raised to the vertical to aid the sealant to run off the wax layer leaving only a very thin coating on this layer to evaporate. But again if this wax was unharmed by this sealants the sealant would have run off or sheeted as oil and water does not mix. This is where the solvent come into play once more, as they attack this wax almost instant although very hard to capture in pictures. Breaking down on contact and the wiping process, In conjunction with the solvent would I believe have the same effect as the wax layer would be so thin in nature.

It is not so much as contact times, as these do play a hand but the strength of the solvent that aid curing that seems to be the issue.
On a positive note although Red mist was mentioned within the post. Red mist tropical is a different kettle of fish. And displays totally different results as in the speed that it breaks down this wax layer.
I have a current test on going at the moment that has had wax applied to a porous surface. I am hoping to cross section this showing that the wax has migrated into the materials from the surface. I will then apply these sealant waxes once more and wipe dry as recommended. But if after cross sectioning once more it is proven that the sealants has by passed the previous wax layer. Then this should prove you with further facts.

Let me just end on this by saying this is just the tip of the ice berg. Further tests will continue with QD or enhancement product and also the true Hybrid sealant waxes like colly and FK100P
There is no getting away from these product and all have here place, within the market and do a very good job. I is down to the user how and why they apply them and this is the meaning of this post. To high light possible pit falls in the users choices.


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## david g (Dec 14, 2005)

Blazebro said:


> It's very interesting.
> 
> But what about the other way round?????
> 
> I'm using Optiseal topped with Chem Guy's Prodetailer with Canauba, would this have the same effect on the Opti Seal layer??????


NO as the Pro Detailer has Canauba ,its effectively a spray wax /detailer


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## waxy (Feb 27, 2006)

Why do you class Collinite waxes,and FK#1000P as ''Hybrid'' sealants.The only similarities between the two are that they both contain solvents.Collinite use a Carnauba/poly resin blend,while FK use a Polyethelyne polymer only, in the formula for #1000p


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## Spoony (May 28, 2007)

Firstly great post Gordon, fantastic food for thought. I don't think the layering of the wax essentially mattered, and whether it was spead or not is a different issue. Whether or not it is spread on the surface or not won't be too much of a different result I'd imagine.. its due to the solvents in them used to cure them ultra quick which make the impact.
However like Gordon did say they do have their place within the market and many are great products not to be discounted. I'd imagine the QDs are the LSP on their own but would contribute to the possibility of eating away the wax. If I get the time over the next few weeks I may re-wax both my front wings and use a QD on 1 side and just wash/dry the other and see if there's any issues.



waxy said:


> Why do you class Collinite waxes,and FK#1000P as ''Hybrid'' sealants.The only similarities between the two are that they both contain solvents.Collinite use a Carnauba/poly resin blend,while FK use a Polyethelyne polymer only, in the formula for #1000p


I think the line runs that a hybrid is a cross between silicone/oil based and solvent based whereas usually a sealnt is solvent based and a wax is oil/silicone based?


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## caledonia (Sep 13, 2008)

Pit Viper said:


> Very interesting indeed, thanks for taking the time to do this experiment and post it up :thumb:
> 
> If I'm honest I've always slightly questioned the details that apply the wax layer then finish off with a spray product of this type as the 'final' step. In my mind it wasn't so much that it would be detrimental to the underlying wax layer in this way (although now it is after reading that), but just that surely it's both affecting the natural gassing off period, and that you only get the beading qualities of the uppermost sprayed sealant layer and not that of the wax.


In answer to your question if the wax is not fully cured then yes. Applying any product over a fully uncured layer of any type. Not just waxes though. Would have long term and depramental effect in terms of durability. In turn stopping the LSP doing it true job.

Again any product applied over any LSP will change the beading and sheeting of this, and the new layer will will display its own beading and sheeting qualities.
Quick dressers or detailing sprays are good at what they do. As most are high in oils and silicon products. The bead and sheet water like nothing else. Create extremely pleasing finish to the eye. And the user loves it. But these are so short lived as most if not all are also water soluble or evaporate and break down very fast.
This is so commonly misinterpreted by the user as they feel that because the looks and beading have change in characteristic then there LSP is failing. But in truth its is only the QD that has diminished and you are left with the LSP finish now.



Bigpikle said:


> Gordon
> 
> Thanks for taking the time and effort to conduct an in-depth test like this. It certainmly appears that these spray sealants are removing much or all of the wax beneath, even when used over a cured wax
> 
> I've long been skeptical of people adding layer after layer of product, and the famous 'final Z-8/RM wipedown' is obviously taking off most or all of the very wax they just spent hours applying....


From what I have witnessed I would agree. But lets not just look at these product. There are a vast array of products with a similar make up. Designed for a certain use. But exploited in others by the users.



RussZS said:


> Thanks for this Gordon - very interesting reading indeed, and I'd LOVE to know which the worst offender was if you fancy sending me a PM
> 
> Also, how far does this go? Is it just wax? Would an oily glaze/pre cleaner also be dissolved in this way? We all assume acrylic bases are unaffected, but is this the case?
> 
> ...


Solvents will break down oils pesent in glazes also. Acrillics well not fair to comment on just now as Tests have not been started. But possibly yes they would be fine.
As a stand alone product they are great at was they do. Nothing can be taken away from them. But as a wax topping well. Where they ever designed to be one, or was this down to the user. Only marketing can answer this one. 



DIESEL DAVE said:


> So best use spray and buff sealants only over cured sealants ?
> And only use spray WOWA sealants over waxes ?


Yes basically think of a sealant as a varnished layer. Solvents would have little of know effect unless they where extremely volatile.



badly_dubbed said:


> intresting stuff Gordon,
> 
> do you think its the solvents based in the sprays that are destroying the wax layers?
> 
> ...


Destroying is a big word. What I would say it they are aiding in the break down of these waxes. Whether is is effecting the oils, chemical make up or some other factor I am not the one to say, as I do not know the solvents present. But if I did know this then I could answer more factual.


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## waxy (Feb 27, 2006)

Spoony said:


> Firstly great post Gordon, fantastic food for thought. I don't think the layering of the wax essentially mattered, and whether it was spead or not is a different issue. Whether or not it is spread on the surface or not won't be too much of a different result I'd imagine.. its due to the solvents in them used to cure them ultra quick which make the impact.
> However like Gordon did say they do have their place within the market and many are great products not to be discounted. I'd imagine the QDs are the LSP on their own but would contribute to the possibility of eating away the wax. If I get the time over the next few weeks I may re-wax both my front wings and use a QD on 1 side and just wash/dry the other and see if there's any issues.
> 
> I think the line runs that a hybrid is a cross between silicone/oil based and solvent based whereas usually a sealnt is solvent based and a wax is oil/silicone based?


That doesn't really answer the question.If the description of a ''Hybrid'' is a product that is both silicon/oil and solvent based,then clearly #1000p does not fit the description.FK#1000p is a completely synthetic product,using a polyethelyne polymer in a solvent emulsion,that dries hard.The proper use of the term ''Hybrid'' would apply to Collinite waxes,FK#2685,Meg#26 etc as they are all Carnauba/polymer blends.Opti seal has been wrongly described elswhere as a ''Hybrid'',why? because it contains a solvent?Most sealants are a polymer emulsion,containing a solvent(petroleum distilates)the exceptions to this are Klasse SG/Carlack LLS as they are a pure acrylic emulsion formula,and entirely layerable.


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## Dodo Factory (Apr 11, 2007)

caledonia said:


> Where I agree with both of uses as the wax layer was much thicker than would be applied to a car. For this reason The test was maintained in a steady temperature of 67F and a relatively low humidity as in approx 35 to 37% for 72Hrs....
> As for the build up of wax and the need to buff this I cannot see the relevance in this, as buffing only removes excess produce and enhances the gloss of the finish.


The point is that you would have had perhaps 50-100 times the amount of wax on the panel (as unbuffed residue) and allowed maybe 3x as long as normal for it to cure. It's fine mentioning humidity and temp as it may appear scientific to some and I'm not trying to pick holes in what you're doing, but it needs some perspective. We have people thanking you for your posts and the heading of this topic is like some amazing Daily Mail expose  But let's keep things as scientific as possible  I am not denying the propensity for any solvent to react with a previous coating, but the intimation is that the wax layer is removed and replaced. This is not possible under normal circumstances due to the large amount of solvent needed to redissolve and then carry away a cured wax or sealant layer. It may however dull a fresh wax finish, which we have even noted and made people aware of ourselves. Which again, is why immediate application of a spray sealant is not recommended onto a waxed or sealed surface.



caledonia said:


> I do agree contact time wax with solvent would be slightly increased again due to not being wiped over. But on the later test panel tests in question it was misted and then raised to the vertical to aid the sealant to run off the wax layer leaving only a very thin coating on this layer to evaporate.


There is still dwell time here. I'll pour some Tardis down the side of a car and you'll see that it's not the same as wiping and buffing it thinly.



caledonia said:


> But again if this wax was unharmed by this sealants the sealant would have run off or sheeted as oil and water does not mix.


I'm getting a bit confused here as to where the 'oil and water' comes in. The solvents are of the same family as the waxes. It could be natural for the solvent to bond to/react with the wax rather than be repelled and create beading. It depends what you mean by harmed. It could bond over the surface of the wax but leave the wax layer in place. It needs to 'etch' itself a little to the surface of the wax to bond to it. But then it covers the whole area with a smoother polymer coating, so gloss won't be inhibited and could even be improved. 'Eating' into the wax is seen as a bad thing but maybe this is why the spray sealants work so well over certain 'sacrificial substrates'.



caledonia said:


> I have a current test on going at the moment that has had wax applied to a porous surface. I am hoping to cross section this showing that the wax has migrated into the materials from the surface. I will then apply these sealant waxes once more and wipe dry as recommended. But if after cross sectioning once more it is proven that the sealants has by passed the previous wax layer. Then this should prove you with further facts.


The glaze oils within the waxes are thinner and more likely to migrate than the wax itself. I'm worried about this insistence on 'facts'. These are reports that need interpretation and analysis.

I know this is a well-intentioned experiment and that investigation into the materials on offer should be welcomed, but the interpretation and conclusions need to be cautious. Spray sealants are useful products when used correctly but warnings about their use needs some perspective. They should be applied as realistically as possible to coatings that have been applied as realistically as possible, to gauge accurate effects for the end user. It is common sense to assume that a solvent based product will react with another uncured or partially cured solvent based product. But the characteristics of a fully cured coating are quite different. Try wiping a damp cloth on a wall that has been freshly painted with emulsion. Then wipe it again an hour later when the water-based paint has dried. Water won't redissolve the water-based coating.

As I mentioned before, the basic premise that spray sealants can attack uncured waxes (and even cured ones in extreme applications) is a well known fact, at least as far as we are concerned. But it needs to be seen in the context of how the products are used, and you should also try and replicate those conditions as accurately as possible. That's far more interesting to me, and far more relevant for everyone else - although maybe more difficult to get results from.


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## Dodo Factory (Apr 11, 2007)

waxy said:


> That doesn't really answer the question.If the description of a ''Hybrid'' is a product that is both silicon/oil and solvent based,then clearly #1000p does not fit the description.FK#1000p is a completely synthetic product,using a polyethelyne polymer in a solvent emulsion,that dries hard.The proper use of the term ''Hybrid'' would apply to Collinite waxes,FK#2685,Meg#26 etc as they are all Carnauba/polymer blends.Opti seal has been wrongly described elswhere as a ''Hybrid'',why? because it contains a solvent?Most sealants are a polymer emulsion,containing a solvent(petroleum distilates)the exceptions to this are Klasse SG/Carlack LLS as they are a pure acrylic emulsion formula,and entirely layerable.


I would also apply the term 'hybrid' to products that have a natural wax and synthetic wax/sealant content.

'Substantially natural waxes' would be those that rely mostly on natural waxes for their performance.

And sealants would be those that use entirely synthetic chemistry to achieve their performance.

There are no strict definitions of these; this is just how I interpret and divide the classes of LSPs. They can be then subcategorised into things like covalent sealants, etc.

I have never known the solvent to come into it. I could name you solvents found in hybrids, sealants and waxes. There is a large crossover.


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## Mirror Finish Details (Aug 21, 2008)

Complete spanner in the works here, but clear coat was designed to protect a car with no added products. Some amazing stuff on google.

Wax just enhances the finish, but clear coat will protect a cars finish for up to 10 years with no products added. Thats why my dad washes his car with Fairy liquid with just the ocasional polish and still looks good.

This is a quote from Chrysler who developed clear coat 

"The durability of the clearcoat goes even beyond the topcoat itself. By adding UV blockers to the clearcoat you have a new level of protection for the pigments in the base coat. As you know oxidation and fading have always been the major problem with paint finishes and the biggest problem faced by detailers. Now our biggest problem is to eliminate scratching and etching in the clearcoat, which in many cases is impossible. It can be reduced, but not always eliminated."

Chrysler are looking at ways to replinish clear coat rather than buff swirls out.

May not be on topic but may be a way of taking the fear factor out of my car has no sealant/wax on it.


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## grant_evans (Mar 2, 2008)

VERY interesting topic this, far to late to be reading through the whole lot now but will certainly have a good read in the morning.


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## toyhto (Jul 19, 2007)

This is great topic and very informative! I'm keeping myself uptaded on this matter but i'm not ready to throw my RM and Z-8 away just yet.


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## WHIZZER (Oct 25, 2005)

Gordon - Thanks for taking the time to do the test and get an interesting debate going.

My idea on Spray Sealents - is I would never use as a topper for a Wax ? 

I thought the idea behind the Sealents is the system they use before applying ? Hence for instance the Zaino system to use AIO- Followed by Z2/Z5 and then to top this with z8 - and the same with Nanolex - Car polished , Ipa wipe down and then Nanolex - I Believe Nanolex even mention that there is no need to top as this would have an effect on it ... 

These above products i Would not use to top a wax ? If using a wax i would use a QD perhaps something like fk425 or the like.


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## little john (Jun 10, 2007)

Soak somthing in a solvent it will be disolved that is what a solvent is designed to do and this is what gordon is doing. the spray sealants are not designed to be left on the surface for any length of time they are spray on and wipe and buff the result of the wipe and buff spreads and moves the solvent about so it doesnt have the chance to disolve the wax layer like it does if it is just sat there like in Grodons test.

The solvents are designed to evaporate but as they are concentrated as a blob on the surface it will take a lot longer to evaporate. Just look at drying your car, water evaporates, spread the water over the surface so it is small beads rather than large beads the small beads evaporate a lot quicker than the large beads. This is sort of how a wet waffle weave drying towel still dries it spreads the water out to a layer with a large surface area so it evaporates a lot quicker.

The only thing Gordon has proven in his test is that a solvent will disolve wax Im sure we can all go out find a lump of tar and put it in a bowl of tardis and yeah it will disolve the tar, take the same lump of tar and spray it with tardis once the tardis evaporates the tar on the outer surface will have disolved but the inner of the lump will still be fine.


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## ads2k (Jul 12, 2006)

Look what you've started Gordon :lol:

I'll keep popping back to see others comments and opinions, but you've done a great job and really allowed this topic to be discussed with some 'form' of results. I'm no good at the science bit - maybe it's time for the mad professor (DaveKG ) to make an appearance to see his thoughts as well.

And thanks to Dom for explaining some of the process's he as Dodo go through to test his products - always interested in this.


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## Waxamomo (Jun 18, 2008)

Absolutely great thread.

I can't really add anything to the debate but I have loved reading both the experiment and the replies. This is what detailing is all about, you just never stop learning :thumb:


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## Blazebro (May 18, 2007)

david g said:


> NO as the Pro Detailer has Canauba ,its effectively a spray wax /detailer


Thanks for the reply, however the Canauba must be suspended within a solvent or alcohol to prevent it from solidifying. It's this solvent/alcohol which appears to be a concern as it's possible that when it comes into contact with anyother substance it may cause it to deteriote.

Can you confirm what Pro Detailer contains regards this?


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## swordjo (Sep 17, 2006)

It's got to be said I 100% agreewith Dom and Little John on this one. Expose anything to an extreme and it's usually going to do what you would expect. I don't see how something with has been tested on an extremely thick layer of wax and left for longer than it should be can be taken as the be all and end all.

How many times does Tardis work with a spray and wipe within a second? You need to leave it to disolve the tar to get it to work properly. Anytime i've used a spray sealant, it has been on the panel for 2 to 3 seconds maximum and has been applied to the thinest layer of wax(which has cured) I can possibly lay down.

The way I see things, not just detailing related. If you don't used them properly they are not going to have the correct result.
I could go out and buy a bag of grapes, sugar,wine yeast,potassium metabisulfite powder and mix them all together and drink it straight away. Now this is the mixture to made home made wine, but I would not be drinking wine if I drank it straight away. I would be drinking grape juice, sugar, wine yeast and potassium metabisulfite powder . This is because i've not let the mixture ferment (or cure in detailing terms) into wine.

I think it's a bit of an unfair test and will still be using a spray sealant after washing my car(using the correct ratio of snow foam to water, and then shampoo to water)


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## Dodo Factory (Apr 11, 2007)

Mirror Finish said:


> Complete spanner in the works here, but clear coat was designed to protect a car with no added products. Some amazing stuff on google.
> 
> Wax just enhances the finish, but clear coat will protect a cars finish for up to 10 years with no products added. Thats why my dad washes his car with Fairy liquid with just the ocasional polish and still looks good.
> 
> ...


This is a great post, as clearcoat technology is extremely relevant - but what it doesn't do is explain the issues that UV damage cause to older clearcoat and how a sacrificial layer will not only act as a barrier to prevent UV damage itself but also help prevent clearcoat damage becoming even worse.

The main point of a wax is to be a sacrificial layer to act as a barrier against acid rain, bird lime UV etc (which would otherwise nestle comfortably against the clearcoat and give it a hard time... you just need to see what bird lime on bare clearcoat can do to see that paint technology ain't as good as you think) and also to collect the kind of crud that you'd normally clay off... paint is essentially a sprayed layer of plastic on your car and any contaminant particle that happens to land on it that is harder will, with a little help like a quick once over with a chamois or buffing cloth by a well meaning owner, will be pushed into it. Hence the rough texture to unclayed clearcoat.

If contamination is picked up in a sacrificial layer, it can be removed more easily and is less destructive than if in the paint itself.

The other issue with clearcoat is simply the ways it can fail or start to fail over time - UV will start attacking the coating as soon as it leaves the factory. Notice all those lovely pink cars out there that used to be red?  If a stone chip happens to break the clearcoat a little, a lovely regime of dishwashing detergent will do wonders at leeching into the crack (dishwashing liquid has a high salt content to clean glass) and the detergents will strip whatever oils or waxes may have been applied previously.

Clearcoat technology will improve, but will it be harder than the hardest contaminants that can land on the car? Well, it has to be sprayable not weldable! And what about self-annealing paints, ones that can self-heal etc. All well and good until it starts sealing in all the crud 

So whilst sacrificial layering has its place, some people just want to slap something on the clearcoat to make it glossier anyway. And they'll keep doing so, even with Buckrogers 3k clear on it


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## Deanoecosse (Mar 15, 2007)

Interesting "test" that will no doubt promote a lot lot debate, however its not a "real world" test as the wax & sealant topping are never used in this way. Like most things in life, if you don't use things they way they are supposed to be used, you will get an adverse reaction.
In real world use, if the sealant did actually dissolve the fully cured, thin layer of wax (the way it should be applied) below, you would then see lumpy wax residue sitting on the paintwork. Funnily enough, nobody has ever reported seeing this as far as I know. If you apply the wax in a thin layer, allow to fully cure, then apply the spray sealant & wipe off as directed you'll not see any issues.


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## Dodo Factory (Apr 11, 2007)

WHIZZER said:


> My idea on Spray Sealents - is I would never use as a topper for a Wax ?


This is the danger of a thread like this - not from my commercial perspective as we make Red Mist Tropical as well, which Gordon points out is far less aggressive in these tests (we may even sell more than competitor products of a similar nature to Red Mist Original) but that people will be scared of using spray sealants when there may be little or no reason to be.

You can do amateur experiments all day long, work out how much solvent is needed to dissolve wax solids (normally around 300%), search google and wikipedia until your brain explodes, but the simple fact is that we know - and anybody with a car, a wax and a spray sealant can know - when a spray sealant removes a wax layer and when it doesn't. This is what Gordon's thread is all about.

1) Get a car with freshly applied wax, wax normally inc buffing as this is how wax is applied.

2) Immediately (so after hazing/buffing but no more than 30 mins later) wipe a generous amount of spray sealant over the surface - the evidence (all that Gordon or anyone else needs) will be the wax 'pilling'. Forming little balls or sausages of wax on the surface. These are white in colour, if it's a wax and easy to see. A bit like how rubbery white silicone sealant goes if overdry. *This is the wax layer being removed*

Now repeat the experiment after allowing the wax to cure over 24-48 hours.

Is the wax still on the car? Well, waxes last longer than a day, so you'd presume so. Now apply a generous amount of spray sealant and look for the telltale pilling. Does it remove wax? See for yourself.


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## johnnybond (May 19, 2008)

First of all well done gordon for thinking about this and deciding to do a test on it. I don't think the way you have completed the test is the best way to conduct this as none of the products being used are doing what they are designed to do. I have to say i agree with dom and those who have expressed that a more "real world" test needs to be carried out. If you do want to make a "thick" layer then to simulate the way we have wax sitting on the paint maybe this should be made of many thin laters of fully cured wax applied in the correct manner on top of eachother with a proper curing time between layers. Then apply the spray sealants and wipe as directed by the manufacturer. If somehow you could inspect these layers using a close up camera or portable microsope of some kind then we can see what is really happening when the products are used as they are meant to be. This will be very difficult to do properly and prabably difficult to draw proper conclusions from but i feel some kind of similar test is the only way we can really see any conclusive results.

Edit- just read doms post above think im going to try this at the weekend and draw some conclusions from that!


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## Spoony (May 28, 2007)

I think the results would almost be very similar on an actual application. Even if you are buffing it off imediately you are still applying a solvent on top of the wax, which will eat away at it - changing the characteristics. Think about it, if you were to take tardis and wipe it off immediately you would still have the ability to cut some tar off the car. It won't "destroy" wax layers per se. All the test does is highlight that spray sealants, can adversely affect wax layers. They will add gloss and shine yes, but thats because it becomes the LSP. You''d probably have the same result without the wax, minus duribility. It does make sense, it's be nice to see in practice. This test is just the tip of the iceberg I'd imagine.


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## little john (Jun 10, 2007)

if it wasnt raining I woulf go out and spray some patches on my car with red mist (full fat) I have a mash of zaino Z2 and supernatural on it so I could test both a cured wax and a cured sealant, I will put a few rops of the red mist on there and leave it lets see if it eats through the z2 or supernatural I don't think it will but I would like to see what happens. but this is totally against the way the product is suposed to be used so its a pointless test.

Maybe someone will do a wheel cleaner test lets leave bilberry or a wheel and see what happens? or wonder wheels what ever we all know you don't let the product dry on or leave it there so why would you do it with a spray sealant.


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## swordjo (Sep 17, 2006)

little john said:


> Maybe someone will do a wheel cleaner test lets leave bilberry or a wheel and see what happens? or wonder wheels what ever we all know you don't let the product dry on or leave it there so why would you do it with a spray sealant.


Was thinking that myself too, plus looking at the pics again, who would actually spray that much Z8/Red mist on an area as concentrated as the tests show. I can get away with one light mist for pretty much a full wing and two on the bonnet/roof.


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## WHIZZER (Oct 25, 2005)

Dodo Factory said:


> This is the danger of a thread like this - not from my commercial perspective as we make Red Mist Tropical as well, which Gordon points out is far less aggressive in these tests (we may even sell more than competitor products of a similar nature to Red Mist Original) but that people will be scared of using spray sealants when there may be little or no reason to be.
> 
> You can do amateur experiments all day long, work out how much solvent is needed to dissolve wax solids (normally around 300%), search google and wikipedia until your brain explodes, but the simple fact is that we know - and anybody with a car, a wax and a spray sealant can know - when a spray sealant removes a wax layer and when it doesn't. This is what Gordon's thread is all about.
> 
> ...


I totally understand what you are saying Dom - I like using Systems = So for instance if i was using Dodo - I would try to use the whole system - lime prime and then a dodo wax - I would prefer to top this with another wax layer rather than a spray sealent. The same would apply to Zaino - Zaio - Z2 or Z5 then Z8...

Im sure you like others have invested time and money in Scientific tests with Red mist and are happy with results it can achieve on paint surfaces.

Again there is no real scientific approach in this test - Nothing has been done under "proper" test conditions - im sure no of us would apply this much sealent or wax to a specific area


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## R31Heaven (Jun 9, 2008)

My main points with this is one is, I have learnt not to put a sealant on top of a wax, so wouldnt do it anyway. and the wax being that thick would not cure in weeks, so putting a solvent on a wet Wax underneath is going to desolve it. So this test does not show things in the real world as said in other posts.


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## Dodo Factory (Apr 11, 2007)

I just want to say that Gordon has stimulated a great debate here and some interesting facts have come out of it. As long as people come to measured conclusions and are presented with 'both sides' of the evidence, these threads are invaluable and should be welcomed by manufacturers and consumers. It's the Daily Mail sensationalism, schoolboy science and forum bloodletting that we should always avoid. We had a 'static' thread about Red Mist when it came out with a claim that it 'attracted dust'. Actually, the action of rubbing a microfibre on paintwork during application creates static electricity and this attracts dust. We even had a guy from the US send an email saying that he lived in the dustiest corner of the planet and had real problems with dust and that he was worried about Red Mist but upon using it found it to be fantastic and there was no issue at all.

A little scaremongering here and half-fact there can affect the sales and reputation of a product undeservedly. But Gordon has been very good at leaving specific products and manufacturers out of the tests, to minimise this. But if people stop using spray sealants over LSPs entirely it's little more than superstition - don't walk under a ladder because you *could* get a can of paint dropped on your head. Instead, people should use spray sealants carefully over wax. If Gordon's thread has highlighted this, then I'll run back to the beginning and find that thanks button  

Finally, interpretation of facts is what is important. Fact is that stuff dissolves in Coke overnight. Fact is that you can drink it, wash your teeth and you can still grin normally in the morning. Fact is that one popular 'acid-free' wheel cleaner has a *diluted* alkalinity of 13.09 pH (out of 14) which is caustic in the extreme, yet the way some people post here you'd think you could drink it. Fact is that Robinson's Orange and Mango concentrate has an acidity of 3.26 pH (with 7 being neutral and 0 being extremely acidic) so is it worth cleaning your wheels with? No, because there'd be covered in sticky orange gloop.

So facts are one thing. Sensible interpretation is quite another


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## Guest (Jul 17, 2009)

This is turning into an even more interesting thread. 

If I have summarised this correctly, Gordon's tests showed that placing wax in a significant body of spray sealant (and hence solvent0 caused the wax to disolve.
Dom responded by saying that the scenario is very different when using cured wax and significantly less spray sealant which is wiped over the top.

However, I'm still having a problem appreciating Dom's explanation - and this is probably because I am not understanding how things are working at a molecular level.

When a wax is applied, buffed off after the correct amount of time and then allowed to cure, the paintwork will have a *very* thin film of cured wax left on its surface - how thin this actually is I'm not completely sure, but it certainly can't be detected by a PTG.

Now, take a spray sealant and spritz it onto the paintwork. This is likely to be left for a couple of seconds while the sealant bottle is put down and the appropriate applicator picked up to spread the sealant out over the panel. Surely we are now entering a scenario similar to the one Gordon has presented - a significantly larger body of spray sealant (and solvent) compared to the wax on the paint surface? Or is the fact that the wax has cured changed this scenario? If so, then I need to really understand what "cured" means.


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## Omnic (May 13, 2009)

WHOA! What a topic, amazing job!

I didn't quite get it. Can I safely use Red Mist Quick Detailer with
Collinite 476 or will it just harm it? 

Thanks, Omnic :wave:


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## Slick 77 (Jun 19, 2007)

Omnic said:


> WHOA! What a topic, amazing job!
> 
> I didn't quite get it. Can I safely use Red Mist Quick Detailer with
> Collinite 476 or will it just harm it?
> ...


from what I gather you can use it but let your Collinite cure for 24-48 hours before applying Red Mist to get the best results


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## theDodo (Jan 14, 2007)

Phisp said:


> This is turning into an even more interesting thread.
> 
> If I have summarised this correctly, Gordon's tests showed that placing wax in a significant body of spray sealant (and hence solvent0 caused the wax to disolve.
> Dom responded by saying that the scenario is very different when using cured wax and significantly less spray sealant which is wiped over the top.
> ...


in the test done by Gordon the wax thickness is making the difference. when you have a lump of wax, still maluble, it is not completely cured and therefore still contains some solvent. as the solvent is mixed in to the wax in order to make it spreadable and soft, we know it is lubricating the wax even down the the molecular level.

so when the thick wax is tested in this test, it adds to the solvent already present in the wax. this stronger solution will have the ability over time to 'eat the wax'. however, when the wax has been applied thinly and allowed to cure on the panel, buffed and then left to cure further for another 24 hours, the wax layer on the panel is solvent free and bonded to the clear coat. when the spray sealant is sprayed on the panel with the wax, the fully cured, solvent free (under a micron) wax layer, the sprayed solvent is currently holding on to the sealant and giving lubrication and softness. as soon as the spray leaves the nozzle the solvents will start to evaporate in the air. as it hits the panel and then proceeds to be spread the heat caused by friction and the thinner layer left behind will effectlively completely evaporate the solvent leaving the sealant layer behind.

the solvent in the spray is currently combined with sealant, and through normal application will evaporate before it has a chance to start eating away at the fully cured wax layer. when thinking about this i found myself thinking, what if yo sprayed in the same spot over and over again? then it must be able to start to eat through the wax layer there... but, with every spray you are also adding sealant. so essentially you are adding sealant and the amount of solvent is diminishing, since some is evaporating and you only add the solution in the same dilution. as the sealant builds up, it is now protecting the wax beneath it.

thats my 2 and a half penny


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## steveo3002 (Jan 30, 2006)

very intresting guys...thanks for the effort in doing this


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## ads2k (Jul 12, 2006)

theDodo said:


> in the test done by Gordon the wax thickness is making the difference. when you have a lump of wax, still maluble, it is not completely cured and therefore still contains some solvent. as the solvent is mixed in to the wax in order to make it spreadable and soft, we know it is lubricating the wax even down the the molecular level.
> 
> so when the thick wax is tested in this test, it adds to the solvent already present in the wax. this stronger solution will have the ability over time to 'eat the wax'. however, when the wax has been applied thinly and allowed to cure on the panel, buffed and then left to cure further for another 24 hours, the wax layer on the panel is solvent free and bonded to the clear coat. when the spray sealant is sprayed on the panel with the wax, the fully cured, solvent free (under a micron) wax layer, the sprayed solvent is currently holding on to the sealant and giving lubrication and softness. as soon as the spray leaves the nozzle the solvents will start to evaporate in the air. as it hits the panel and then proceeds to be spread the heat caused by friction and the thinner layer left behind will effectlively completely evaporate the solvent leaving the sealant layer behind.
> 
> ...


Great reply fully explaining how it works :thumb:


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## GTiHigh (May 7, 2009)

steveo3002 said:


> very intresting guys...thanks for the effort in doing this


+1 - very informative on both sides.

And respect to Dodo for having the balls to get involved from a manufacturers perspective............ This shows yet again Dodo's commitment to their customer base :thumb:


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## Blazebro (May 18, 2007)

GTiHigh said:


> +1 - very informative on both sides.
> 
> And respect to Dodo for having the balls to get involved from a manufacturers perspective............ This shows yet again Dodo's commitment to their customer base :thumb:


Well said and totally agree :thumb:

I agree that the review may be regarded as schoolboy chemistry, however it visually shows (very well), the possible consequences of 'topper' products.

One manufacturer (Optimum) has come out and said not to use his sealent as a topper as it will dissolve a waxed surface. This is after a very small amount is added to a sponge and wipped accross the surface with minimal contact. It's this initial concern by Optimum that has stimulated this. Surely it must be reasonable to consider the possible consequences when using a similar product suspended in alcohol?

I appreciate that the amount of time and amount of solution is small, but so's Optiseal, in fact even more so.


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## spooj (Mar 29, 2008)

a very interesting test but again as mentioned previously in the thread,it has an element of 'we took a tooth and left it in coke overnight' about it,that is to say its not entirely representative of 'real world' practice BUT does clearly illustrate an extreme to be respected in these products.

i would be keen to know if there is a dye of some kind or a chemical you can pippet over wax/carnuaba and detect its presense via a colour change etc.that way we could get those layers down to what we actually use and buffed away,then a quick blast of sealant spray and quick buff off and see whats really left cos once we buff and walk away,we really dont have enough evidence to state if the wax was removed.

this sort of testing is a good idea and far from putting it down,it sounds like it needs a part 2 for us to start honing in on the exact determined effects

a big thank you for your time devoted to giving us the results so far.very much appreciated


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## Dodo Factory (Apr 11, 2007)

Blazebro said:


> One manufacturer (Optimum) has come out and said not to use his sealent as a topper as it will dissolve a waxed surface. This is after a very small amount is added to a sponge and wipped accross the surface with minimal contact. It's this initial concern by Optimum that has stimulated this. Surely it must be reasonable to consider the possible consequences when using a similar product suspended in alcohol?
> 
> I appreciate that the amount of time and amount of solution is small, but so's Optiseal, in fact even more so.


This is where we start going around in circles 

Products can dissolve a proportion (none, some or all) of a wax layer, depending on factors like how cured the wax is, how potent the solvent it, how long the solvent is in contact for etc.

There are thousands of different solvents out there and we can't comment on Optimum's chemistry. You have seen how we use two solvents in Red Mist (normal solvent and Tropical solvent) and they have completely different attributes according to Gordon's testing. I doubt Optimum are using the exact same solvents - it's not just a drop of alcohol, these are sophisticated ingredients with their own chemistry. Just as there are tens of different types, grades and manufacturers of fuel, so there are of industrial solvents.

And maybe there are other reasons. I am not suggesting this for Optimum, but it is easy for a manufacturer to simply say 'avoid this technique' than taking the time to explain curing times of wax layers. There could be many reasons why one manufacturer says one thing for their product and another manufacturer states something else.

From our point of view, we have known of the issue of layering Red Mist and other similar spray sealants over wax within a short space of time and have gone to great pains to educate our customers and independent forum members of this issue. This is because in our testing, we found wax interference and physically saw the manifestation of this issue, on 'fresh' wax. We didn't find these symptoms on cured wax after 24-48 hours, so we could comfortably advise users to apply Red Mist with the required delay over wax (ideally after a maintenance wash a week or so after wax application).

In practice, many have layered Red Mist over wax and sealants almost immediately and reported no ill effects. Sometimes I raise an eyebrow hearing how lashings of Red Mist have been applied immediately after two layers of wax and there has been no 'pilling' and the car looks better than ever. It shows how some products cure at different rates and how application techniques vary from user to user. Whilst one person has a problem, someone else has no issue. There are a lot of variables out there.


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## Dodo Factory (Apr 11, 2007)

spooj said:


> i would be keen to know if there is a dye of some kind or a chemical you can pippet over wax/carnuaba and detect its presense via a colour change etc.that way we could get those layers down to what we actually use and buffed away,then a quick blast of sealant spray and quick buff off and see whats really left cos once we buff and walk away,we really dont have enough evidence to state if the wax was removed.


This is a good idea and I have some thoughts, but need a bit of spare time to put them into practice - maybe after the next week or so as we are launching a few new products and life will be getting hectic very rapidly


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## caledonia (Sep 13, 2008)

First of All Dom thanks and I welcome your thought on this also. If you have taken the heading as a Daily Mail exclusive then I apologise for this. I was not meant in this context. But like every other thing these day people do not take post or head line in the context they where meant. Even though I have commented on this twice now. Lets make it 3 times Now (Only for visual purposes.)

There has been much debate where the test mirror true life. So on this subject let me explain. These test where not done over a few night they have been on going for a few months. Different waxes, Spray sealants, different application methods. I displayed similar findings. In that the wax had been affected to a degree. I never mentioned in any of my posts that these where wax killers. But merely hoped to show they have an effect on the wax layer. Now this is where it has went totally off topic.

Tests where done and can be uploaded also showing wax and the spray sealants being wiped over as the recommendations, by the manufactures. But unless people wish to see lots of shiny square. There is no point. I found great difficultly in photographing the slight effect that these sealant had on the layer. As it was so minuet. But it was clearly visible to the eye. But lets simplify things a bit.

A person sprays a liquid on a cure section of wax. What happens?? The wax does as it was designed to do as in it repels the liquid, and forms beading. To much liquid it sheets. Now if a solvent is sprayed on to a cured wax. What happens?? It does not bead sheet it clings. So from contact this is having an effect on the wax layer. As almost immediately the wax cant repel this, for won’t of better words attack. The upper layer. Now this is where the grey area comes in is the wax harmed. How can say. But no one can say it is the same as before the solvent was applied. Etching I would hope so as these sealants require a bond. But I also cant say whether the wax is present also as it has been covered over or super seeded by another LSP. But this is also dictated in the strength of the solvents and yes the dwelt time. As has been commented on by a few members Where Tardis does not remove hardened tar on contact. But requires a dwelt time. Yes true to totally remove this. But the chemical break down of the tar starts straight away. Again how long should this be left. Much the same down to the user and the hardness of the tar. On this subject as it has been raise. But can see the relevance really. Tardis in contact with your car. Whether it is sprayed, wiped or left to dwelt does it kill the wax layer. I bet it does. I am using this to show the difference in strength of products. Where solvent are concerned.

Just because a sealant has solvents present at any strength. It will have an effect on the lower wax layer. Please noted the word effect.
Wax and curing. Well as I have stated how the wax was cure and in what conditions as in the main picture. It also seams to have been over looked. 72 Hrs at 67F and at a humidity of 35 to 37%. Even with the thickness of this I would say it was cured. But I as I have already mentioned there where tests done that where applied correctly and showed similar results. But not as visual as the ones in the post. Again this was mentioned in the main post for visual purposes and to show in picture the effect that solvents play on a cured or un cured wax.

I am not saying to people discontinue to use or bin your product. Just think before you act. As certain product can have an effect on other.

I am also grateful Dom that you have openly admitted and I also say you have never hidden this fact from people that decided to read your posts in the past. Truth from manufacturers is always welcome as in the Opti seal products. Where the main man himself openly admitted that his product did not etch. Dissolved and replaced due to the polymer make up of his said product.

Believe me I thought long and hard whether to post up my findings and I did look to certain established long term members for advise. A few have also over seen a few of the tests also. But again I will keep there autonomy and them out equation just now.

I have no issue with any of the manufacturers of these product as I have not named, Waxes or worst offenders within my post. But it is also nice to see that Dodo has not lost its following, Even the Reseller who obviously have a vested interest in these product, have posted.

That being said. Once the wax has had its first application of these sealant it is then safe for more sealants to be applied over the layers again. As the sacrificial layer has been sealed in.

So please take this post as how it was meant to be taken and in the context it was made. Think what you are applying to your car. Just cause something looks good does not mean it is not having an effect on another.
I welcome more interesting comments on this subject and now hope we can get back truly on topic. Instead of the direction it has went.

Gordon.


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## Dodo Factory (Apr 11, 2007)

Great post, Gordon.

I would need to investigate talk of 'dissolving and replacing' as this is a little strange from a chemical perspective (it may potentially 'dissolve and combine' and perhaps this is what is meant) but we get into semantics. One man's etch is another man's dissolve.

Spray sealants are unlikely to totally remove a wax layer (especially a fully cured one), but they have the potential to interfere with it. Compared to the old water-based QDs of old this is a very significant point 

Ever since people started using Z8 as a QD instead of a spray sealant, the tide has been changing towards these solvent based sprays and it is good that a flag of caution if being raised.


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## caledonia (Sep 13, 2008)

Dodo Factory said:


> Great post, Gordon.
> 
> I would need to investigate talk of 'dissolving and replacing' as this is a little strange from a chemical perspective (it may potentially 'dissolve and combine' and perhaps this is what is meant) but we get into semantics. One man's etch is another man's dissolve.
> 
> ...


Thanks once more Dom. Know you know the nature of my post. I too look forward to those finding. Etching to complete the bond. Inter mingling or in some cases already stated replacement of the LSP.
As already mentioned prior The tropical version shows totally different finding based on the time scales. But again I am only surmising this could be down to the dilution of the solvents present.
Gordon.


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## Blazebro (May 18, 2007)

At the moment the test has been spraying the product directly on to the surface of the wax.

What would be the effect of spraying the solvent onto a MF first and then wiping the waxed surface over?

Is it the fact that you have a bubble of concentrated product on the surface (which the MF would avoid), or is any volume of the product potentially altering the waxed surface?

What I'm trying to get at are ways of minimising the potential harmfull alcohols etc in top up products and lessening their effects.


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## GIZTO29 (May 8, 2009)

Well Dom, im probably that person (you posted in my MiTo thread regarding this) you raised your eyebrows at as i did just what you mentioned and applied Red Mist 2-3 hours after applying a coat of Supernatural which was going ontop of a coat of SN from the previous week. ( I had snowfoamed the car and shampoo'd before the 2nd coat of SN btw, i didnt just chuck it on lol). I have to say i had no problems with the wax piling and the car looked better. For the record i was advised 'after' this to leave approx 24 hours before applying the Red Mist after Wax. My only issue is that by then the bloody cars covered in dust/dirt usually! Very good read though and informative to a newbie:thumb:


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## caledonia (Sep 13, 2008)

Blazebro said:


> At the moment the test has been spraying the product directly on to the surface of the wax.
> 
> What would be the effect of spraying the solvent onto a MF first and then wiping the waxed surface over?
> 
> ...


I presume the bubble you are talking about is the one in the picture. Is is not solvents. But oils gathering from that wax layer it was applied to.
As far as your other comment goes. The volume of solvent would play a roll in that the effect would be minimised. But there would still be slight damage to the lower layer of the wax as the spray would have to bond. As pointed out, whether this would be cross bonding or other types will have to be verified in the future.
For talking sake a water based only product could not be evenly applied to a wax layer, as dispersal would play its hand.


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## Neil_S (Oct 26, 2005)

Top top thread Gordon and some great input from everybody


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## Crash Master (Feb 5, 2012)

Interesting reading.

I have just put 2 coats of FK1000P and then applied Opti-Seal the next day about an hour or 2 after the second coat, will Opti-Seal have taken out one or both of the layers of FK1000P?


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## Goodfella36 (Jul 21, 2009)

Crash Master said:


> Interesting reading.
> 
> I have just put 2 coats of FK1000P and then applied Opti-Seal the next day about an hour or 2 after the second coat, will Opti-Seal have taken out one or both of the layers of FK1000P?


A post regarding same kind of question

http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=240297&highlight=Opti-seal


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## Crash Master (Feb 5, 2012)

BespokeCarCare said:


> A post regarding same kind of question
> 
> http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=240297&highlight=Opti-seal


Sorro be a dummy but isn't FK1000P a sealant not a wax?


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## Crash Master (Feb 5, 2012)

I don't know how scientific this type of test is or how accurae but I was interested to do the same with FK1000P and Wet Glaze 2.0.

Results:

FK1000P
Blackfire Crystal Seal didn't touch FK1000P
Optimum Opti-Seal started to breakdown FK1000P

Wet Glaze
Optimum Opti-Seal didn't touch Wet Glaze 2.0
Blackfire Crystal Seal started to breakdown Wet Glaze 2.0

Maybe useless info but I found it interesting as I use these product regularly, just wanted a rough idea what MAY affect the other.

Pics attached (Crystal Seal left / Opti-Seal right - in both pics)


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