# Changes to Detailing Supports 1st March 2013 PLEASE READ.



## Admin (Oct 25, 2005)

As you know, we have been running out "Detailing World Supporter" Scheme for a few years. We have over the last few months been speaking to various members and detailer supporters with regards to how we could improve it the offering.

One of the items that comes up time and time again is insurance and also whether supporters are full or part time. Now don't get us wrong, we do not discriminate between full or part time detailers but we would assume the customer would like to know from a point of view of when his car will get done. The insurance side of things is an easy one and one that EVERY detailer should have paramount in their minds.

Now there is two levels of insurance, there is your basic "Public Liability" for your trip hazards and your area you working in but then there is the "Motor Trades" side of things including driving your customers cars in and out of your units as well as insuring them while they are in your custody and control. One last aspect will be vehicles being worked upon.

From the 1st March we are going to implement the post bit under your username to include two or three more items which will be Full Time Detailer and also Insurance checked both will have simple yes or no answers. You can take a look at the Dooka profile to see how this will look as Rob has supplied us the relevant documents.

This will be where you need to come in. For us to answer that we have checked your insurance you will need to send us a copy of your schedule. These items can be sent to [email protected] once we receive them we will be able to update your post bit to confirm. 
We are giving you 3 weeks to supply us the schedules which I believe should be enough time.

We are just trying to do our bit for Detailing World members to confirm that the professionals they use to detail their cars are covered to the best of their abilities.

Cheers,

DW Chief


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## MidlandsCarCare (Feb 18, 2006)

It won't affect me anyway as ill be 'full time' by March but what is the purpose of highlighting who is full time and part time and how will this be policed and what is the purpose of this? 

When I was 'part time' last year I was probably detailing for over 50-60 hours per week which is more than some 'full timers', especially if you factor valeting in. People will naturally be judged as being inferior unfairly.


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## Incredible Detail (Sep 26, 2007)

I'm interested to know what happens if someone doesn't have road risks? I think everyone needs it but a lot of people I've spoke to don't.

I even had a conversation with a detailer that has a unit and he told me he didn't have road risks because he only drove the customer's car in and out of the unit.

The unit was in an industrial estate that the public could access so if they were caught moving the car in to the unit or even if someone ran else ran in to them they could be charged with driving without insurance - never mind the bill for fixing a car.

Funnily enough their insurance was over £1000 cheaper than.

I wouldn't even like to move a customer's car forward to clean the wheels properly or even move it in to a customer's garage if I didn't have road risks.


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## Reflectology (Jul 29, 2009)

I spoke to Jonny regarding this earlier last year and said if you needed my policy numbers I would pass them on and also give Lloyd permission to share the schedules, I havent got an issue with it and think its a good way to allow Joe Pubic to make a decision not only because insurances and schedules are shown etc but also whether they take into consideration that part time or full time makes no difference if insurance is seen to be present.


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## MidlandsCarCare (Feb 18, 2006)

I was told that I needed road risks to move a car into my unit and also that the car in not covered whilst it's in my care without it - so if it were stolen then the insurer would pay out then look to reclaim from me directly - so my policy was £3000 rather than £2000...


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## Envy Car Care (Aug 17, 2006)

I have public liability, road risks and items worked upon and I'm full time. This is a great move guys and when I'm back I'll get the info off Lloyd and pass it on. 
Tim


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## Ronnie (Nov 15, 2006)

Sounds cool thats for sure its about time. One question, I detail occasionally now (poss no more than 20 cars I hope this year) and am having to cut back to allow me to focus on the Orchard side of things being only 2 of us doing everything something has to give, does that fall into Part Time? All my documentation is in Orchard's name not OCD as I am only trading under Orchard.

I Have PL and worked on insurance but dropped the Road risk insurance last year ago simply as i didnt need it and Mark has Trade insurance for himself so on the rare occasions (once last year) we have to drive a car I let him do the piloting.. My broker said as we are in a completly privatly owned compound that I own (nobody else has any access and it has closed gates industrial estates are public areas with traffic etc etc.) I dont need it as its not in a public area so dropped it.


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## Beau Technique (Jun 21, 2010)

Mine is due renewal and have the bashman sorting it. Ive always had PL and vehicle indemnity but having finally got my keys to the first workspace ive had the necessary road risks, storage etc incorporated. Daft not to imo. Bit confused with the remark of factoring valeting in when its all car care at the end of the day and considering most valets I do far outweigh most of the sh1t out there im happy and proud of it. Always had dirty nails from the graft and stand by that whilst I live and breath this trade. Carry on with the diplomacy DW, all for the greater good:thumb:


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## MidlandsCarCare (Feb 18, 2006)

I'm not knocking valeting, not sure why that's bothered you, I'm just saying that the 'part time' bit is a bit of an odd addition and wondered how it's going to be determined. Products is another example which Ronnie has already highlighted.


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## Beau Technique (Jun 21, 2010)

Because that is and has always been my main background Russ. Ye olde valeting/detailing bumph is growing somewhat tiring of late. Good and bad in all fraternities. Bottom line is the perception of which the client gets upon first glance. Some may want full time, some may be happy with anyone so long as competency is at a high level and insurances are in place. It can only be tried and tested to see if it works effectively or not.


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## MidlandsCarCare (Feb 18, 2006)

Then please accept my apologies, as I didn't intend for it to be taken in any negative way - we in fact will also be offering a few cheaper valeting services to help pay the bills at our unit - seems silly not to and not everyone wants to spend £250 upwards for a Detail in this economic climate.

My apologies,
Russ.


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## Beau Technique (Jun 21, 2010)

MidlandsCarCare said:


> Then please accept my apologies, as I didn't intend for it to be taken in any negative way - we in fact will also be offering a few cheaper valeting services to help pay the bills at our unit - seems silly not to and not everyone wants to spend £250 upwards for a Detail in this economic climate.
> 
> My apologies,
> Russ.


No drama.
Your learning young padawan


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## Mirror Finish Details (Aug 21, 2008)

Oh good idea/bad idea??
Can understand but as most of my work is at customers houses I don't need trade insurance. I have PLI in place but not had worked on for a few years as I self insure. Yes self insurance is a legal practice in the business world. If you were to drop the rotary on a bonnet after excess' of £400.00 I could get the bonnet repaired and resprayed for about that. 

Trade insurance the unit has a 10' door and we cover the car upto £50,000 while on the premises. The car park is private land so don't need to insure driving a car 15' through a 10' door. The car does not move till the customer pickes it up. But that is a policy on the unit.

This was agree with direct Line.

So basicially all I can proove is PLI but I have all possibilities covered.

Food for thought.

Perhaps rater than concentrate on Insurance as anyone can get a policy and cancel it focus on the guys who are weekend warriors and pay no tax.

There are hundreds of weekend warriors on here and I bet the tax man sees no money.


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## Miglior (Feb 12, 2006)

Mirror Finish Details said:


> Oh good idea/bad idea??
> Can understand but as most of my work is at customers houses I don't need trade insurance. I have PLI in place but not had worked on for a few years as I self insure. Yes self insurance is a legal practice in the business world. If you were to drop the rotary on a bonnet after excess' of £400.00 I could get the bonnet repaired and resprayed for about that.
> 
> Trade insurance the unit has a 10' door and we cover the car upto £50,000 while on the premises. The car park is private land so don't need to insure driving a car 15' through a 10' door. The car does not move till the customer pickes it up. But that is a policy on the unit.
> ...


Steve I really think you need to have a review of policies at your place, if thats your way of thinking. Most of your work is at customers houses so you don't need insurance? Really???

I guess you think that because the customer has his cars insured that everything is pukka? You know if the car got stolen whilst you were working on it, yeh the customer would get paid out by his insurance, but what would his insurance company do after they pay the car owner out?? they'd come straight after you mate. Now, if you had set up a LTD company to trade like that, and the insurance in place, you would be fully covered. But, you don't seem to have insurance and don't trade as a LTD company. So you could have something dreadful happen whilst at a customers house and be personally liable for everything. Dont forget some customer houses might be worth £5,000,000. good luck if you burn that down by accident if a polisher shorts out. Yeh, it sounds drastic, but these things happen every single day, thats why professionals put the systems in place to deal with every eventuality.

Self insurance in legal, but jesus man, we were on expensive metal in expensive homes.

I rather naively thought most of the pro's on here would be properly insured, obviously not. therefore, im really pleased to hear this new introduction by DW and will give potential customers a better insight into what kind of organisations you might be dealing with.


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## Envy Car Care (Aug 17, 2006)

^know of at least one here who has cars dropped off, left in custody, driven and worked on and no insurance of ANY type at all


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## Beau Technique (Jun 21, 2010)

Envy Valeting said:


> ^know of at least one here who has cars dropped off, left in custody, driven and worked on and no insurance of ANY type at all


Snap and some of the cars arent that cheap im afraid to say. This game can be a dangerous sport of course so better to have the relevant cover in place for both parties sakes.


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## WHIZZER (Oct 25, 2005)

Thanks for the remarks and comments - We are trying to help make the supporters section into a better place - there are other things that we are looking into as well which include trade discounts etc


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## SystemClenz (Oct 31, 2008)

Ill send my particulars over later today, but re above, I'm fully insured for everything, even if the unit burns down next door and they're not insured!! But I've never had road risk insurance, and in the nearly seven years I've been a valeter/detailer I've never donked a vehicle! I enquire every year when I asses my needs and I'm always getting quotes of around £2500! Just for road risk! with built up ncd thats around £10k ive not had to pay! and i never take the vehicles on the main road.


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## kk1966 (Aug 8, 2007)

To me road risks insurance is the most necessary of all if you had to choose just one as the famous 'under custody and control' covers quite a bit even if you dont drive it anywhere. Ive lost count of the amount of valeters ive spoken to that are under the illusion their private car insurance covers them third party for customers cars in the event of an accident. Just my thoughts...

anyway,,,what are we after here...copies of schedules or actual certificates of insurance. I presume scans converted to pdf's are ok?...or is there another format thats required?


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## Kelly @ KDS (Aug 4, 2008)

details sent over :thumb:

There maybe be a need for adding "employers liability", i sent mine over anyway. 

I thought its best to show that the people who employ staff are actually insured within the building and carrying out the trade.


PS steve you really are a complete plum lots of times , and looooooove digging a very big hole mate :lol:

so your rebuilding and restoring a old ford (or is it spam to keep up with the jone's), you train public (not in your building) might i add a building that should not be sublet out , so this means you are there covertly and then you prove you are not insured to drive the cars in that you are training on or should i say the public are NOT insured to train on that car.

oh hang on was you not packing up the detailing trade and teaching instead to fit bathrooms. 

Hope your fully insured to do that too :thumb:

sometimes is best to not argue and keep quiet, you would of thought the rest of us detailers on here cant ALL be wrong with our insurances 


kelly


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## Auto Detox (Dec 22, 2007)

Just sent mine over, great idea ! :thumb:

Baz


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## Reflectology (Jul 29, 2009)

MidlandsCarCare said:


> I'm not knocking valeting, not sure why that's bothered you, I'm just saying that the 'part time' bit is a bit of an odd addition and wondered how it's going to be determined. Products is another example which Ronnie has already highlighted.


I think it might to sort the wheat from the chaff Russ thats all, those that have the necessary like the ones posting in here instead of just reading it and walking on by mate are a testament to the body of pro detailers, yes we have had issues but a lot of water has passed beneath that bridge and as far as i am concerned you are building a business and its moving forward so good on ya c0ck, thats yorky by the way, i am not trying to seduce you



Mirror Finish Details said:


> Oh good idea/bad idea??
> Can understand but as most of my work is at customers houses I don't need trade insurance. I have PLI in place but not had worked on for a few years as I self insure. Yes self insurance is a legal practice in the business world. If you were to drop the rotary on a bonnet after excess' of £400.00 I could get the bonnet repaired and resprayed for about that.
> 
> Trade insurance the unit has a 10' door and we cover the car upto £50,000 while on the premises. The car park is private land so don't need to insure driving a car 15' through a 10' door. The car does not move till the customer pickes it up. But that is a policy on the unit.
> ...


Steve i think you need a rethink mate, dropping the rotary on a bonnet is another thing which in truth anyone on here would sort themselves because of the simple price of the excess involved in a claim, but if something was to go a wry whilst cleaning an engine bay, now i am not saying it would but i am pretty certain your "Self Insurance" wouldnt be able to cover a 35k bill.

But as they say in business. Its how you run and if it works, it works.

I am mobile but still have the road risk area of the insurance, now i dont need that but what sort of businessman would i be if i was to need to move a clients vehicle and had to disrupt their home working for the sake of me just holding onto the keys.

Now we know thats not important for mobile but for me it is. Just as the PL and Items worked upon


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## MidlandsCarCare (Feb 18, 2006)

Thanks Russ, appreciate it. I guess I was that same annoying weekend warrior who is now annoying me (and **** me there's LOADS of them now!) but I'd like to think that I have at least tried to do things properly (insurance etc) during the hardest year of my life!

I'm glad that Rob/Dooka has initiated this as it can only lead to good things for the industry as a whole in the UK. I've noticed as my prices have crept up that I actually don't really lose out on much work and also attract nicer cars. However, this current trend of £60'ers could potentially cripple the market.

It's also startling to see the amount of people who think that they can go on a single day £80 training course and then start trading on the back of it. Are people really that naive?


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## dooka (Aug 1, 2006)

Some very good responses in this thread, and positive ones at that on a whole, which is only a good thing..

What ever you think of the changes/additions DW are rolling out, they are small steps into making what should be a great industry better. What is implemented, will be followed and reviewed periodically, as I don't know how to make the detailing fraternity a better pace, but I am trying to do just that, and really appreciate the help/headaches/hassel/you name it , that DW are getting over me kicking up a fuss, but lets be honest, they guys who want to do well and make this industry what it is, agree that something needs to be done..

If nothing is done, it will become an industry full of folk in the yellow pages and then end up on Rogue Traders..

I am all for moving this industry forward, but believe it needs to be managed to an extent, like anything that grows, if un-managed, becomes unruly, which the detailing industry is..

As Mr Aston [2 Russ's, so need to show who I am talking too/about ] has said, the guys who get a days training, read a tutorial thread or two and watch a video or two, then go off to be full time pros who are the best in the world. They are big culprits, Well, I have been using a rotary for over 20 years now, and I am no way the best at what I do, probably far from it, but I take pride and pump passion into my work, so how can 10 hours machining make you the best . Experience is everything in my eyes, but we all need to gain and experience over time. I have no issue people wanting to learn and go off on their own, but don't charge what the experienced guys do, or be honest about your experience/background..

I guess the guys who offer training could be blamed for the influx of new pro detailers, but at least some of you guys are giving proper training. I hear of guys getting one lesson, then offering training themselves, WTF!!!!!!!!!!

Anyhow, that was a bit of a tangent..

I want this industry to be what it can and should be, I would like to see it move forwards in a positive way, and I would like a lot of the arguing amongst us to stop, and yes, I also moan . I think it is time we all get on the same page and do thing properly, help each other and the industry move forward..

I am happy to chat with anyone about the issues raised and or how to move this industry forward for the better, the latter preferred .. I also know I will become unpopular with some over what is going on, but I would rather be hated and at the top of my game in a world class leading industry rather than be loved and crap in a rubbish cowboy, lying and non transparent industry, which if we are not careful, it will become..

As Mr Briggs has said, we are trying to sort the Chaff from the wheat..

Another thing I would like to introduce is a set of minimum standards, I have chatted with some of you about this, I have also chatted with some of the non DW supporting pros, and most agree that some sort of standards should be brought in, so for an example, we take the most common services, so, A protection Detail, an Enhancement Detail and Corrections, let get a list up of what the minimum work carried out should be for that service. then if you guys want to do more, then that is fine and your choice, which also think most of you do do already, but it gives clients and potential clients an understanding of what they will actually be getting. I hear that where most will run a single stage machine polish on an enhancement, others are using the likes of SRP and charging what the guys who machine do, to me, there is an amount of dishonesty there, yes, the paint may be enhanced, but not to what an Enhancement should be..

I hope my ramblings make sense, I am not here to undermine any of you, well not unless you are a cowboy, then I hope you do get unearthed..

So, rather than making this thread a moaning thread, lets make it a thread full of good ideas, and yes, debates fore and against those ideas, or lets open a separate thread..



MidlandsCarCare said:


> It's also startling to see the amount of people who think that they can go on a single day £80 training course and then start trading on the back of it. Are people really that naive?


Russ, unfortunately they are ..


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## MidlandsCarCare (Feb 18, 2006)

I think the point around training days is a fair one Rob and something which Nick and I need to go away and consider but we are more about offering a flavour and high level overview into various concepts rather than arming 10 people per month with the ability and/or confidence to go and start charging money for Detailing. I have spoken to a few other people and may turn these more into 'open days' where people get to try products out or specific insights into how to apply specific products or get the best from particular product ranges, but of course these may prove less popular.

Just this morning I received a message asking me if I would train a group of 4 mates on how to machine polish swirl marks out. After digging a little deeper, it seems they're intent upon setting up a business about 5 minutes from me and using this car which we were to work on as their demo to show what can be achieved. I guess the moral dilemna is if I don't spend some time with them, then someone else probably will.

With regards to us all getting along better then I for one would very much welcome this. Any bickering or disagreements should be kept in here or as a telephone conversation rather than something in the public domain. Just this morning I read an exchange on a forum over a thread regarding which glaze to use on a silver Civic which involved a couple of Pro's and you have to wonder how this looks to prospective customers. One of them was forced to defend their product/position and did very rightly so but it can't look great to anyone looking in. I have also been made aware of a certain individual who feels as though they are in a position to pass judgement on the abilities of a number of people despite never seeing their work and taken very public shots at some people via Facebook. Again you might say this is unprofessional but at the very least it doesn't help with this unified approach you are talking about Mr Dooka.

I also agree with the minimum standards concern as 'Enhancements' in particular seem to vary wildly and there seems to be an undertone of digs from some around camera angles, lighting and needless/aggressive removal rates. Then you also have some people who will call a 'day' 8 hours and others who wil put in 12 hours and 2 people. Some who are doing 'gloss enhancement' and some who are providing near enough 'correction'. The point is there appears to be no consistency I guess.


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## Rich @ PB (Oct 26, 2005)

DW Chief said:


> As you know, we have been running out "Detailing World Supporter" Scheme for a few years. We have over the last few months been speaking to various members and detailer supporters with regards to how we could improve it the offering.
> 
> One of the items that comes up time and time again is insurance and also whether supporters are full or part time. Now don't get us wrong, we do not discriminate between full or part time detailers but we would assume the customer would like to know from a point of view of when his car will get done. The insurance side of things is an easy one and one that EVERY detailer should have paramount in their minds.
> 
> ...


We've (Clark, Angela and I) have just had a discussion about this request, and would like to raise a few points from our position as a long-term DW Supporter (although the fact that we are also an Approved DW Trader should be taken into account, as it may be biasing our viewpoint).

Whilst we can see these new features being of benefit to certain supporters who rely heavily on the forum for driving interest and bookings (particularly in areas of the country where local competition is fierce), this may not be the case for those supporters, like us, who derive 99% of their work from other sources (chiefly word of mouth in the oil and gas industry in our case).

Furthermore, rightly or wrongly, we feel that this type of 'business status' information belongs on the supporters own website, as potential customers should be performing due diligence directly with the detailer(s) whose services they are considering using. We include such information on our website for this very reason, i.e. to reassure potential customers that we are full time professional detailers and that we have comprehensive all risks* insurance cover in place.

The problem we see with the forum starting to sub-classify supporter status is that where do you ultimately stop? Right now only 'hours kept' and 'insurance status' have been raised, but is there a possibility of more categories being added in future, to the point where skillsets and ratings come into play? Furthermore, might this come back to haunt DW if a supporter lies about their status or provides false documents, books work as a result and then has an accident?

Maybe we're overthinking this, but it just feels to us that this scheme should be optional rather than compulsory, and as such we'd like to opt out because we want our customers to come directly to us to confirm our status and ask any questions they may have. Please don't take any of this the wrong way - DW is an invaluable social network and an excellent advertising platform, but it doesn't need to be trying to do things that potential customers should be doing themselves.

* property damage (includes customer cars), business interruption, public liability (includes work being performed), employer's liability, product liability and road risks


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## Reflectology (Jul 29, 2009)

MidlandsCarCare said:


> I think the point around training days is a fair one Rob and something which Nick and I need to go away and consider but we are more about offering a flavour and high level overview into various concepts rather than arming 10 people per month with the ability and/or confidence to go and start charging money for Detailing. I have spoken to a few other people and may turn these more into 'open days' where people get to try products out or specific insights into how to apply specific products or get the best from particular product ranges, but of course these may prove less popular.
> 
> Just this morning I received a message asking me if I would train a group of 4 mates on how to machine polish swirl marks out. After digging a little deeper, it seems they're intent upon setting up a business about 5 minutes from me and using this car which we were to work on as their demo to show what can be achieved. I guess the moral dilemna is if I don't spend some time with them, then someone else probably will.
> 
> ...


I am indeed that very person defending the product, which as you say i have a right to do so, especially as the chap in question has never used it but chooses to knock reviews of it on this particular forum, the underlying factor for me getting involved on that was the sheer volume of members either PMing me on there or FB saying they were a little bemused as to why i hadnt mentioned anything, the truth of the matter is i dont frequent that forum or many others tbh, with the exception of one so what people say sort of passes me by.


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## Ronnie (Nov 15, 2006)

one thing and simply as I have seen it happen is if say for example x customer sees y detailer who is approved and verified on DW and sees insurance documents etc etc have been checked by them, then gets work done and something happens and the detailer does not comply with fixing or covering whatever they may fall back to DW saying you checked and verified these people therefor indirectly you are liable for a claim. 

its easy to get an insurance cert and then cancel it a few days later been going on in the building trade for years I had contractors provide insurance docs all valid then a month later after tehy have started find they are not covered as they cancelled teh insurance to save a few pounds. will this be an annual check just a 2p if its going to be implemented then it needs to be inforced to keep everyone covered. will also get round what Rich says about people giving false documents etc etc. I hired a contractor to felt and lath a roof on a job in York. one of teh subbies shot himself in the hand dicking around with a hilti gun, the contractor had cancelled teh insurance after we had seen his documents and won teh job we were then (read me) to the £7k injury claim he got. we were totally right in our checks and he was not in anyway in my employment, but as we had varified his insurance we fell liable took me a further 16 months to get it back off the contractor who was the guys boss.

Just wondering will this lead to a governing body? will the cowboys mind not really as most are posting on here anyhow. I can see where competition is fierce it will help. 

Also for us saying what each level of detail is I cant see it working simply as it will be a fair old variation and each interpratation is different. 

I agree that insurance is key and also professionalism but its up to each individual.


Another thing nobody has added is keeping teh car garaged, I had to specify it last year whereas teh previous year it was included, now to geep a car overnight is extra and they are not covered after "office" hours. Also now when i origionally got insurance I was not covered to remove wheels I was told it would be a year or two but last year it was included at no extra charge as part of teh Worked on definition. DW will have their work cut out policing this one all insurance is different all detailers are different all prices are different. Each also can be changed at a moments notice. All I know the 7 mainland customers all used detailers and even with £600 shipping fees, we are still cheaper than most UK detailers, not because we want to but as one who paid £750 per day for detailing services says we simply cannot command that price in Northern Ireland.


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## Auto Finesse (Jan 10, 2007)

Rich @ PB said:


> We've (Clark, Angela and I) have just had a discussion about this request, and would like to raise a few points from our position as a long-term DW Supporter (although the fact that we are also an Approved DW Trader should be taken into account, as it may be biasing our viewpoint).
> 
> Whilst we can see these new features being of benefit to certain supporters who rely heavily on the forum for driving interest and bookings (particularly in areas of the country where local competition is fierce), this may not be the case for those supporters, like us, who derive 99% of their work from other sources (chiefly word of mouth in the oil and gas industry in our case).
> 
> ...


Im on the same wave length as this to be honest, it looks to me as if these will end up being "badges" to boast about rather than for the good of the actual customer, nor will they really reflect the quality of the service offered by company/detailer, there used to be a massive divide back in the day on the forum for a while where people had it in for "supporters" as if mods where biased towards those "funding the site" and it all being about back "handers", i can see this coming back again with this scheme

Another problem is the way people use the site, not everyone uses it to represent there business the same, some use it to promote them selves as "Dave the Detailer" and others (such as polished bliss) as a company as a whole, then it leads me to this: my full time job is Auto Finesse (actually every waking hour is) but hands on detailing is not what occupies many of my hours here anymore, so what would that class me as (waits for someone to say c*&t) but its a valid question still i think.

Despite having all the paper work to attain the higher levels of status if im honest i dont know if its a good idea, so im on the fence.

For the time being id rather just have "Auto Finesse" under my name, as thats enough for us for now.


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## WHIZZER (Oct 25, 2005)

Some intersting comments and Whilst i think a governing body would be a grand thing to actually get there i think it will be a long hard slog with lots of obstacles . These changes have been thought about from previous comments made within this section about weekend detailers and the right insurances etc but also from talking with lots of detailers over the last few months - This is what you chaps seemed to want , and a lot of time from DW has gone into talking , planning and technical challenges ( albeit mostly from a few others and thank you to those that have commited the time ) and it does seem that we wont always get it spot on but hopefully its a step in the right direction to combat some of the challenges you face = BUT it does seem sometimes that no matter what we do there will always be an obstacle -~I do understand some the issues raise but also would like to see more comments on how you think they can be overcome. 

I wish everyone could get along and work hard at promoting the "detailing banner" so to say and if we can all work together we can only but try and make it a better industry - 
I think trying to nail down what a set detail aspect is really very very difficult - as What somebody offers and wants to call their programme might be completely different to the next - i put this to somebody today about a decorator - one says i always use 3 coats of primer and 2 coats of undercoat and 2 top whereas another says ah i use 2 coats of primer 3 coats of undercoat and 1 top coat followed by a sealer coat - in essence the same thing but also very different ! Also what people quote on pricing again is subject to each person not something that DW can ultimately control - Hopefully we provide you with a good media portal and advertisment option that if used correctly can get good google rankings and bring attention to your companies across the net - 

So chaps as you can see we are trying but its a tough challenege


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## Rich @ PB (Oct 26, 2005)

Where have the thanks gone on my post? They were left by Whizzer and Reflectology?


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## kk1966 (Aug 8, 2007)

Wow.....this threads certainly taking a windy road but some excellent points raised from both sides. 

As regards insurance..yes i have also seen people cancel policys and also once lost out on a Lamborghini Correction to someone who seriously undercut me and i refused to haggle. Same customer returned a couple of months later with his tail between his legs to see if i could rectify the 'detailers' balls up..apparently he was insured...but had since dropped off the face of the earth and wasnt answering calls anymore. I gave the guy the number of a bodyshop i use and they gave him a £5k bill.....

Also from my own experience when i first started off i was advised to check 'verbally' with my insurers what i 'wasnt' covered for. Turned out there was an exclusion for Subaru Imprezas which wasnt in writing.......i thought i was hearing things!!!! Every year i have to double check exactly what theyve changed or havent changed 'just in case'...and this isnt one insurer...this has been the case with a few!!!! To be insured for a 1969 mustang meant i had to take two exclusions out...one for vehicles manufactured prior to 1972 and one for vehicles manufactured for a LHD market. Another odd one was the exclusion for customers vehicles if they were parked within 100 yards of my home address..or was it metres....you get the idea.

The point being that just seeing an insurance policy doesnt necessarily mean your covered for a particular car.

I do agree strongly with the points made that it is down to the customer to check the validity of insurance etc upon the prior consultation. When i collected the Quattroporte last year the customer asked that i bring my passsport and certificate of insurance for him to copy as he didnt even know where my unit was.....i wouldnt have been that trusting!!!

I dont think a governing body of detailing as such is ever going to be possible...however there do seem to be more and more of the 'trust a tradesmen' type schemes cropping up every day and if nothing else they serve as a sort of communal word of mouth reference. Some years ago i joined the 'Guild of master Craftsmen' scheme and they did actually carry out checks with customers that you were worthy of membership although i thought the £500 joining fee a bit steep......

I would also welcome the 'wishing people would get along' more. One of the reasons i spent the last few years away from the forums was that exact reason...i just got on with my work and kept myself to myself apart from a couple of people in the industry.

One point i will make and im sure im going to get slated for this but ....I dont think part timers should be allowed DW Supporter status as it is generally deemed by the majority of forum members that DW Supporter indicates a Pro (Professional) and somebody who does it part time to boost income isnt deemed a Pro in any trade. This isnt a personal dig at anybody in particular...just my personal opinion which may or may not be shared by others.

In general as Bill states...DW are trying to improve the forum and the way it is for those who support it financially in particular...and thats a good thing!!!

But remember you can please some of the people all of the time and all of the people some of the time but never all of the people all of the time.

Thats my rambling over...........


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## Angela @ PB (Jan 3, 2007)

And also, why has the 'full-time detailer' been added to my profile?! We asked above to opt out. Another important point is that I don't actually detail for PB any more, so it's misleading.

(posted by Rich as I just nicked our iPad off Ange!)


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## Adam_ (Apr 9, 2012)

Being full time i carry liability for £1m and also this in motor trade and road risks - not cheap!


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## Auto Finesse (Jan 10, 2007)

WHIZZER said:


> I do understand some the issues raise but also would like to see more comments on how you think they can be overcome.


I understand that you guys are trying to do this for the better of the members in here, honestly i really do, but whether a detailer has insurance or does it part or full time has no real bearing on the quality of service you will actually receive, and i think it should be left for people to advertise on there own website and if you really think its something you need to advertise on here do so in your signature bar under your User CP, that way DW are not responsible for displaying false information if someone was to show insurance and it laps then a customer have a problem.

I think this has been looked at from the wrong angle, rather than key points of what peoples business offers, think about it from a customers perspective, more important is displaying the correct location, mobile, static or both, opening days and times. in all honesty iv never been asked to prove insurance, and only ever been asked "are you insured" when collecting a car from someones house. I have it cos i don't want a bill for someones car if it gets robbed out my unit or the place burns down, not as something to use as a selling point of my business.


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## Envy Car Care (Aug 17, 2006)

sent copy of PLI and items worked upon as have it on my laptop.
Cant do road risks until I get back from the course later this week.
Cheers
Tim


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## Refined Detail (Nov 27, 2006)

Mirror Finish Details said:


> as most of my work is at customers houses I don't need trade insurance. .


Ahem...

http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=292784



Mirror Finish Details said:


> I took it for a spin to get some petrol for the customer and my; what a fab car to drive......


Scans of my schedules now sent.


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## Johnnyopolis (Oct 25, 2005)

Rich @ PB said:


> We've (Clark, Angela and I) have just had a discussion about this request, and would like to raise a few points from our position as a long-term DW Supporter (although the fact that we are also an Approved DW Trader should be taken into account, as it may be biasing our viewpoint).
> 
> Whilst we can see these new features being of benefit to certain supporters who rely heavily on the forum for driving interest and bookings (particularly in areas of the country where local competition is fierce), this may not be the case for those supporters, like us, who derive 99% of their work from other sources (chiefly word of mouth in the oil and gas industry in our case).
> 
> ...


Hi Rich,

I am glad that you can see some benefits to this. Firstly, let me tell you the only reason we talked about and added these additional items was due to Detailers suggesting it was a good idea. We were trying to make it a more transparent playing field for the people who signed up as supporters rather than as some have put it "any tom dick or harry being able to sign up with a buffer" We were trying to affirm that people within this "supporter" section were happy to show they have taken the appropriate steps and costly steps to ensure that when they work on a customers car it is insured while in the detailers custody and control. I am pretty sure a lot of customer wont ask until its too late.

There was absolutely never any thought that this would carry on to start sub classifying other Categories. I understand what you say about people lying or providing false documents but I kinda hoped that those werent the kind of people who are in this section!! Now I am not sure how Autofinesse or Dodo Juice operate their Approved Detailer Scheme but I would have thought that they perhaps check Insurance too? Maybe I should ask James or Dom how they would handle the same liability issue coming back to them as they may be able to help with some advice. I would suggest maybe its simply by a declaration rather than seeing original documents.

Making this scheme optional actually makes it worthless IMO as it simply gives someone the option who isnt insured to simply say - I want to opt out then no insurance is checked and we end up with half the detailers happy to submit and the other half not, I thought you would all be keen for something like this, I see its not the case.

Your thoughts are interesting though and as today has past and i have thought about it more myself and read some of the comments on here I personally think to myself maybe I shouldn't have gone to the lengths spending the time coding the post bit as its becoming clear that some people clearly dont think think its a benefit to the site.

All the above said, I do appreciate you taking time out of your day to respond to this. How we continue moving forward will have to be decided tomorrow when I have a meeting with Bill.

Cheers,

John


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## Johnnyopolis (Oct 25, 2005)

Ronnie said:


> one thing and simply as I have seen it happen is if say for example x customer sees y detailer who is approved and verified on DW and sees insurance documents etc etc have been checked by them, then gets work done and something happens and the detailer does not comply with fixing or covering whatever they may fall back to DW saying you checked and verified these people therefor indirectly you are liable for a claim.
> 
> its easy to get an insurance cert and then cancel it a few days later been going on in the building trade for years I had contractors provide insurance docs all valid then a month later after tehy have started find they are not covered as they cancelled teh insurance to save a few pounds. will this be an annual check just a 2p if its going to be implemented then it needs to be inforced to keep everyone covered. will also get round what Rich says about people giving false documents etc etc. I hired a contractor to felt and lath a roof on a job in York. one of teh subbies shot himself in the hand dicking around with a hilti gun, the contractor had cancelled teh insurance after we had seen his documents and won teh job we were then (read me) to the £7k injury claim he got. we were totally right in our checks and he was not in anyway in my employment, but as we had varified his insurance we fell liable took me a further 16 months to get it back off the contractor who was the guys boss.
> 
> ...


I completely understand what your saying there Rollo. I guess I have naively thought that detailers would be different and would not take out bogus policies just to supply to a check but you have opened my eyes tonight.

I am certainly not prepared to put DW in the firing line for a claim because we have checked a detailers policy and then he has cancelled it.

I am not sure about a governing body either. I dont know how you would be able to govern it as there is so many different things you can do in detailing. If your a sparky then there is only a certain amount of colours of wires you can connect and if your a gas man then your putting pipes together (loose terms) but they are always going to be to the same standard. Detailing there is so many different things you can do with different polishes, sealants, waxes etc I dont know how you could run it.

I think your right and I am kinda getting that opinion tonight that perhaps these new insurance checked items arent wanted.

Cheers,

John


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## B&B Autostyle (Apr 4, 2010)

A lot being discussed and some interesting points being brought up.

I'll scan my documents up during the week and get them over soon as.


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## Johnnyopolis (Oct 25, 2005)

James B said:


> Im on the same wave length as this to be honest, it looks to me as if these will end up being "badges" to boast about rather than for the good of the actual customer, nor will they really reflect the quality of the service offered by company/detailer, there used to be a massive divide back in the day on the forum for a while where people had it in for "supporters" as if mods where biased towards those "funding the site" and it all being about back "handers", i can see this coming back again with this scheme
> 
> Another problem is the way people use the site, not everyone uses it to represent there business the same, some use it to promote them selves as "Dave the Detailer" and others (such as polished bliss) as a company as a whole, then it leads me to this: my full time job is Auto Finesse (actually every waking hour is) but hands on detailing is not what occupies many of my hours here anymore, so what would that class me as (waits for someone to say c*&t) but its a valid question still i think.
> 
> ...


Hey James :thumb:

That was never what the intention was. I guess I can see what your saying and I appreciate reading these comments.

I guess if its a case of everyone not being able to agree we will not push forward with the liability checked tag. As I dont think its going to be beneficial as an opt in or opt out scheme.

Thanks again for taking the time to respond. :thumb:

Cheers,

John


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## Johnnyopolis (Oct 25, 2005)

Rich @ PB said:


> Where have the thanks gone on my post? They were left by Whizzer and Reflectology?


I have no idea Rich. I will go back and thank you though so you have some :thumb:


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## Johnnyopolis (Oct 25, 2005)

Angela @ PB said:


> And also, why has the 'full-time detailer' been added to my profile?! We asked above to opt out. Another important point is that I don't actually detail for PB any more, so it's misleading.
> 
> (posted by Rich as I just nicked our iPad off Ange!)


I thought you asked to opt out of the insurance item but never fear I will be removing it from ALL Polished Bliss members in the next 5 minutes.

Apologies I misunderstood you earlier.

As I have said earlier if we cant get everyone agreeing to this sort of thing from the outset it simply wont work as there is no point some people providing documents and then others opting out. It needs all the supporters behind it.

Cheers,

John


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## Johnnyopolis (Oct 25, 2005)

James B said:


> I understand that you guys are trying to do this for the better of the members in here, honestly i really do, but whether a detailer has insurance or does it part or full time has no real bearing on the quality of service you will actually receive, and i think it should be left for people to advertise on there own website and if you really think its something you need to advertise on here do so in your signature bar under your User CP, that way DW are not responsible for displaying false information if someone was to show insurance and it laps then a customer have a problem.
> 
> I think this has been looked at from the wrong angle, rather than key points of what peoples business offers, think about it from a customers perspective, more important is displaying the correct location, mobile, static or both, opening days and times. in all honesty iv never been asked to prove insurance, and only ever been asked "are you insured" when collecting a car from someones house. I have it cos i don't want a bill for someones car if it gets robbed out my unit or the place burns down, not as something to use as a selling point of my business.


I am glad you can see that James 

I think the case is we simply continue to offer you guys a place to have your signature and advertise your work. DW is simply an advertising portal for you and a place to help with google rankings it may be best if it stays that way.

We have the information you talk about at the top of the Studio Section in a post there. I may add it to a map and add some logos etc and make it a bit more searchable that I think will be better use of my time right now 

Cheers,

John


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## Johnnyopolis (Oct 25, 2005)

Finally, 

Thanks to all those that have sent over your insurance details. 

Can I now ask if you havent sent them yet please hold off for the time being until I can have a conversation with the other admins about how we are going to go forward from here. 

Many Thanks, 

John


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## Offyourmarks (Jan 4, 2006)

I think DW is stepping out a little too far here. 

If DW intends to check and approve a detailers insurance surely they are then in a position to have to accept any liabilities if said insurance deems to be fake or they are under insured?

Personally speaking, this is an area DW should stay away from unless they have taken legal advice on the matter concerning potential liability. 

When answering yes to the 'insurance checked' part - what exactly are you checking? Will you investigate to see if said cover is adequate? What if someone is insured up to a limit of say £50k and they post up a detail on a Veyron or similar?

Anyone without insurance is crazy imho but as PB say, its down to the customer to look into this and not the job of DW to try and police or prove it - potential minefield methinks.

I can see why some may try to dodge being insured as it is rather expensive (ours is over £3500) and if they are doing a bit on the side for a handful of cash then it could put a dampener on things. 

Bill - it seems like this is a decision that you are being pushed into to appease some people. I would think again on this mate


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## WHIZZER (Oct 25, 2005)

*Please read -*

Ok Chaps... After having a long meeting last night and discussions we have decided that we are not going to proceed with this - It was all done with the best intentions but there seems to be to many obstacles against it . As Always we have your best intentions in the plans that we lay down but this one doesnt seem to fufill the need for you guys and we are sorry for any hassle caused. For those that have invested time into this we will be extending your subscritption for one month for the time that you have spent helping us try to get this off the ground.


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## Auto Finesse (Jan 10, 2007)

Johnnyopolis said:


> We have the information you talk about at the top of the Studio Section in a post there. I may add it to a map and add some logos etc and make it a bit more searchable that I think will be better use of my time right now
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> John


Hi John

Il be honest iv never noticed it, thats not to say others haven't but the way i use the forum has never lead me to view that post. Maybe have one generic "need a detailer" banner that directs people to that map you talk of up on the top right banner space? and maybe something similar on the home page? Im sure that would be beneficial to everyone?


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## Beau Technique (Jun 21, 2010)

Good idea at the time and nice to see DW attempting to stand up for whats right. I was aiming at sending mine over once it was all finalised as im changing insurances but I will hold off now.


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## Reflectology (Jul 29, 2009)

I think what DW have tried is a good idea but as from a while back when this was discussed i personally think sub sections in the studio would be a far better option, even though some disagreed with it at the time, the info posted in there can be relative to each and every ones business, that way its not checked by DW but is visible to see by Joe Public, it is still down to them to seek this info, and would negate DW of any responsibility or liability.


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## dooka (Aug 1, 2006)

Back to the drawing board then..
I think we all agree, that something needs to be done, and not just on DW..

Like I said earlier in this thread, may be worth having a standards sheet for each detail. Yes I know people won't always abide by it, but it will allow potential customers or those looking for a detailer to at least be armed with a certain amount of info and the least that they should expect, I know most of you guys go above and beyond anyway ..

Insurances may not of been the right way for the DW Team to go, but at least they have recognised that there are certain problems, and have tried to implement something, good on you guys..

I think what is trying to be done and most are missing the point, is that this industry is starting to become unruly and untrustworthy. If you feel that nothing should be done, then in my eyes, you should find another sector to work in, and allow this industry become what it was and should be, and not what it is becoming, and in my opinion, THAT IS A LOAD OF CRAP ..


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## Rich @ PB (Oct 26, 2005)

This post is aimed at the DW management team, but addresses many of the issues raised in this thread and elsewhere on the forum in recent weeks. We don’t normally get involved with what is best described as the ‘politics’ of detailing, because quite frankly we choose to focus exclusively on the growth and development of our own business instead. However, sometimes it’s important to take a look at what’s going on and express an opinion...

First up, we have nothing but admiration and respect for the DW team, past, present and future. We have been supporters from the outset, and hope that the forum continues to grow and prosper as a social platform for detailers (both enthusiasts and professionals, of all abilities, from all around the world). This is what DW is, and what you guys do best; you offer a virtual pub for detailing buffs and provide an advertising platform for traders and professional detailers. You do this really well and rest assured that your hard work is greatly appreciated and does not go unnoticed. However, we feel that there is no need for you to go any further in terms of supporting your paying customers.

Supporters pay to advertise their brand/products/services to potential customers. You guys should have your own set of minimum standards for signing these people up, but these should be your own criteria, not those that you think joe public want confirmation of. All DW then needs to do is display a disclaimer in the relevant section of the forum that tells forum members that some people pay to advertise, but that this does not guarantee anything about the quality of service these people offer. As should always be the case in life, potential customers should then perform their own checks prior to commissioning work from detailers or placing orders with traders.

This leads me on to another point. So what if Tom, Dick and Harry, all with shiny new buffers, sign up to be supporters? If they meet DWs own criteria then fine. The only people qualified to judge them and their work is the customers who end up paying them, and those customers should perform their own due diligence first. The free market effectively separates the good from the bad, particularly in light of the rise of social media and the immediate effect it often has on reputation. Over the years we’ve had to put up with two plonkers in our local area who at times did their level best to bring us down, but where are they now? Gone. And why? Because they did their talking with their mouths and not their work, and their customers quickly cottoned on to this.

We honestly don’t feel that the detailing industry needs set standards or a governing body or any other form of support or management. To succeed, detailers should simply focus 100% of their time on doing the best job they possibly can, and presenting that work to the world in the best way they can. By doing this you build up enduring credibility and a loyal customer base. We don’t advertise our detailing services, yet we have a six month waiting list. And pricing is less important than most people think. Our customers understand why we charge what we do and are willing to pay, despite cheaper options being available. It’s not rocket science. To succeed, you must focus 100% on your own business. Nobody else knows your business like you. So, focus, focus, focus, graft, graft, graft, and don’t be distracted. Cowboys will always come and go, but good businesses run by passionate people will always endure and prosper.

So, in a nutshell then, thank you DW for being an awesome social platform and for running things really well. If you want to do more to help your paying customers, focus on improving the platform and adding features that strengthen the forum and the experience it delivers. Attract more traffic, let it flow with link juice to those that pay you, and moderate tightly but fairly. That’s all we ask. In return, expect us to post awesome content, help other members out and respect the rules. And if we don’t, kick us out – judging from some recent comments a few paying customers could do with being reminded about the need to be professional at all times.


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## Rgk Detailing (Dec 6, 2006)

I think it is great that the DW team are looking at ways to improve the value of the detailing industry in the public eye, however I agree there are limits to what the forum can do, and ultimately if a customer is looking have their car detailed, then it is up them to do their research, and make sure the detailers they are interested in are fit for the job, and have the correct insurances in place.

also we will never stop the wee weekend warriors, and cowboys starting up, 
perhaps more public awareness is needed to highlight a minimum quality of work that should be expected, for example the average number of hours that a client should expect a detailer to spend doing a full paintwork correction detail, I've seen a few detailers quoting paint correction as between 12 - 24 hours, I would be hard pushed to complete a single stage enhancement in 12 hours to a high standard never mind several stages of polishing!

So as Dooka mentioned mabye a standards sheet to act as a guide for a car owner searching for a detailer could help?


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## Ronnie (Nov 15, 2006)

Just had a thought as this is one of a much greater importance than if a detailer is insured. the Manufacturers section. We have been dissecting a certain companies MSDS and we have found that they are in blatant disregard for EU classification they are listing a product as an irritant when if their claim is correct then the proper classification should be toxic and in need of specialist equipment for use this is not a retail product at this strength. Another thing is their claim is actually impossible. Now I know most feel that MSDS is a work of fiction but this is now getting dangerous and is more serious implications than buffing a hole in a cars paint. 

We spend a lot of money doing it right and have taken a fair bit of crap from others, I personally am getting fed up with companies giving mis-representated data or not bothering to actually do it in the first place. this is a Legal requirement that a company MUST have these freely available and the old I can't give it out in case its reverse engineered line is a total lie as you can't make an exact copy of a product just by reading an MSDS esp. one that has only the minimum requirement of information. Sorry but there is one product now available on DW that will pose a serious risk to someone and it's about time it was monitored a bit closer.


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## HeavenlyDetail (Sep 22, 2006)

The statement "Your only as good as your last job" is sometimes enough to sort the good from the bad.


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## Reflectology (Jul 29, 2009)

HeavenlyDetail said:


> The statement "Your only as good as your last job" is sometimes enough to sort the good from the bad.


And this was drummed into me from the age of 16 when i started out.


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