# What Is It With Leaf Drivers?



## RandomlySet (Jul 10, 2007)

Not wanting to tar everyone with the same brush, but I've noticed that EV owners - and mainly the Leaf drivers - seem to be so far up their own ar$e...

Maybe it's my own fault for joining a few Leaf groups last year after recording a couple of videos on a Leaf for Bristol Street Motors, but my god, they seriously think they are better than everyone else. Including other EV drivers :lol:

I usually ignore their posts, never reply, turn group notifications off etc etc, but this morning one comment really made me chuckle.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/UKNissanLEAFOwnersGroup/permalink/1545308015604784/

For those without Facebook, I posted a link to the BigBoi dryer video I've just uploaded.

One guy then commented "Isn't it a little inconsistent to have an environmentally friendly car and then use all that energy to dry it?"

Me: "Runs on electric just like your environmentally cars do. Don't see the inconsistency TBH"

Back to him: "uses energy unnecessarily!"

And I couldn't resist but: "The Amish could say the same about cars."

I'm not "trolling" him, and TBH, don't even know why I wasted my time writing this. All I know is, I'll be wrong, he'll be right and he's much better than anyone else who dares pop into a petrol station :lol:

*For the record, I't not against EV's at all, hell we even looked at one and our next car will probably be a hybrid. But damn, Leaf owners seem to think they are far superior than anyone else

**apologies in advance to DLGWRX02 :lol: Sorry you got tarred with this brush :lol:


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## muzzer (Feb 13, 2011)

It isn't just Leaf drivers to be fair and it isn't even electric or hybrid car drivers, it's the ecomentalists that buy these cars.
'Oh yah, i'm doing _my_ bit to save the environment yah, not like you with your neanderthal ways'

It's funny but they deny all knowledge of the damage a Lithium mine does to the planet in the first place as 'neanderthal propaganda' and we are all just dinosaurs who are too stupid to see that petrol is dead....usually followed with the word man.

I love electric cars and hybrids, i've always said if i had the money and the correct living accomodation to run an electric car, i would have one but i am not blind enough to think they are the only answer to fossil fuels.
In fact, if you want to be environmentally friendly, then electric cars are not the answer at all but you can't tell the eco warriors that bit as it goes back to being a neanderthal all over again.


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## RandomlySet (Jul 10, 2007)

Agreed, to be totally environmentally friendly, you'd want the cars to run off Solar on the roofs and bonnets. But then again, where do the resources come from to make solar panels? 

The only way to get around in an environmentally free way is to walk, but then you have to fuel yourselves.

Either way, you can't win :lol:


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## Gadgeteer (Feb 15, 2014)

Ok Matt 
How many beers to the mile should I be getting :lol:


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## virgiltracey (Apr 19, 2017)

from my experience Zoe drivers are the same, there's a bloke local to me who owns one...

Urinating on an electric fence would be more pleasurable than talking to him ever again


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## Derekh929 (Aug 28, 2011)

virgiltracey said:


> from my experience Zoe drivers are the same, there's a bloke local to me who owns one...
> 
> Urinating on an electric fence would be more pleasurable than talking to him ever again


:lol::lol::lol:


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## fatdazza (Dec 29, 2010)

Do not argue with a fool. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience. :thumb:


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## Naddy37 (Oct 27, 2005)

Electric cars are the most unenviormentally friendly mode of transport at present.

Go back to the idiot and explain how much energy is used to produce one, or the amount of chemicals used to produce the batteries, not to mention all those diggers digging up the road to install the charging stations. Does this pleb live in a tree house by a chance? :lol:


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## suds (Apr 27, 2012)

Enviros all shop via t'internet - buy 5 items to try on and then return at least 4 of them with no acknowledgement of transport miles involved.


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## transtek (Mar 2, 2007)

Surely it's more environmentally-friendly to properly maintain an existing car for 10 or even 20 years than to use up so many of the earth's resources buying a new electric car?, especially when you might need new batteries every 5 or so years?


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## The Cueball (Feb 8, 2007)

transtek said:


> Surely it's more environmentally-friendly to properly maintain an existing car for 10 or even 20 years than to use up so many of the earth's resources buying a new electric car?, especially when you might need new batteries every 5 or so years?


That's what I try to explain to the eco freaks driving 20k miles a year when they give me a hard time for my big engined cars that do around 2k a year and are 18/20 years old, but still passing MOTs without any issues.


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## cheekymonkey (Mar 15, 2008)

fatdazza said:


> Do not argue with a fool. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience. :thumb:


interesting how no one argued the point with you Daz


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## andy__d (Jun 27, 2018)

transtek said:


> Surely it's more environmentally-friendly to properly maintain an existing car for 10 or even 20 years than to use up so many of the earth's resources buying a new electric car?, especially when you might need new batteries every 5 or so years?


or less
sister had one of those renault Zoe things
yes i know,, renault + electrical things - fogging nightmare 
she had it on a lease Thankfully for her as within the first 12months the POS had to be carted back to a main dealer for a replacement battery pack some £8k cost. Fast forwards to the 3rd year of the lease and its back on a transporter going Back to the main dealer for Another replacement battery pack. The Dealer had the bare faced cheek to ask if she wanted to Upgrade to the Newest battery pack "only £3k on the lease costs" , i didnt Quite catch what sis said to the chap but,,

Any twunk driving an electric or hybrid has that "im better than you" mentality. 
assclowns  ,, sis soon changed her tune with the very long list of issues the Zoe had.

its Not Just the car + Bats thats the issue, due to the weight of the POS things they need Extra load rated tyres ,, which ££££ and can be a "oh sorry we dont stock those can get you one in a few days/week" leaving the POS stuck as they dont come with spare wheels (not even a Smartie) due to Weight + the space...

Sooner the unwashed masses of morons wake up the better  usually will only happen when there work place is 5miles past the range of the POS things,, or the moon is found to Really be made of cheese


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## transtek (Mar 2, 2007)

andy__d said:


> or less
> sister had one of those renault Zoe things
> yes i know,, renault + electrical things - fogging nightmare
> she had it on a lease Thankfully for her as within the first 12months the POS had to be carted back to a main dealer for a replacement battery pack some £8k cost. Fast forwards to the 3rd year of the lease and its back on a transporter going Back to the main dealer for Another replacement battery pack. The Dealer had the bare faced cheek to ask if she wanted to Upgrade to the Newest battery pack "only £3k on the lease costs" , i didnt Quite catch what sis said to the chap but,,
> ...


Oooh, Wensleydale:lol:


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## fatdazza (Dec 29, 2010)

cheekymonkey said:


> interesting how no one argued the point with you Daz


Just shows what sage advice it was


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## AndyN01 (Feb 16, 2016)

I'm happily with all of you on this.

I've posted before about the need for a proper and "true" cradle to grave environmental (NOT cost) impact analysis.

What damage does getting all the raw materials do? And transporting them? And then doing all sorts of other environmentally questionable things to them to produce a car? And then what about fuelling it? And how about when it dies (currently not many years at all and almost certainly not decades!)? What about (and how to?) getting rid of all the bits and batteries that it was made of?

IMHO it's perfectly possible to make a car that will last 20 or 30 years but that will probably bankrupt the manufacturers so that isn't going to happen. It seems they are going the other way by making cars less long lived :doublesho

Always nice and convenient to pick just a very tiny bit of the whole and shout from the roooftops that it's the saviour of the planet.

Thanks

Andy.


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## DLGWRX02 (Apr 6, 2010)

Don’t worry Matt, some of them are so far up there own back ends they can see the backs of there own tonsils! I’m in that group and give up posting, I’m only there really for technical help. I posted in there a few weeks back using the waterless wash, oh the uproar it caused. I had spent ages writing it up posting pictures in order but then it got deleted because I have branding on my car! And OBVIOUSLY it was because I was advertising my own company! Erm no.lol. I had to re do the pictures but edit out the 2 stickers on the car!. Then I got the arguments,” how is it an eco wash when your using so many cloths then having to wash them afterwards”. Your right Matt you can’t win with them.lol I had some private messages which were from genuine guys who thanked me but didn’t want to post on the forums publicly for fear of being abused! As some of them said they lived in flats with no hose or water access so it was ideal solution for them. So if I helped one that’s all that matters, f**k all the other p*****s in there.lol

And just to be clear I’m not an eco-it’s, I’m a realist, and I realised paying £400 per month in diesel alone, £1000 a year in service costs and £600 in road tax was just not viable anymore. So it was decided ide rather be paying for a brand new car (payments monthly are less than what I was in diesel alone) with very cheap running costs due to increased miles commuting, and being new hopefully needing less maintenance and £0 road tax. So the leaf was the ideal choice for me.


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## Darlofan (Nov 24, 2010)

The true eco cost will only be revealed once the pendulum swings from fossil fuels to electric vehicles. Then once the government are losing out on taxes the scientists will be flying out the woodwork with research about batteries being so damn harmful. That's when taxing will be racked up.
Look at the way diesel owners have been played in the last 10 yrs. Problem comes in how to tax electric for use in cars, non car owners will be hit too just on trying to light their homes unless you have seperate meters for homes and vehicles.


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## Walesy. (Oct 1, 2009)

I nearly got run over last night on the way to the pub, the dick came round the corner in his electric Golf and I didnt hear him (i was on the road) and he clearly didn't see me either. Dangerous, wouldn't have happened if it has a combustion engine!


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## DLGWRX02 (Apr 6, 2010)

Walesy. said:


> I nearly got run over last night on the way to the pub, the dick came round the corner in his electric Golf and I didnt hear him (i was on the road) and he clearly didn't see me either. Dangerous, wouldn't have happened if it has a combustion engine!


So was it his fault for driving his car on the road? or your fault for walking in the road? 
You can still hear tyre noise and they amit a high pitch noise (they have to by law) they ain't entirely quite. I've narrowly missed a few who step out with out looking then when I've shouted at them, the first thing they do is take there damn earphones out.!

So with all due respect people need to remember the green cross code, Stop, look and LISTEN.


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## DrEskimo (Jan 7, 2016)

You will always get a-holes in every 'group' you care to want to pidgeon hole into. They are not worth worrying about....

However, I want to correct some of the misinformation being written in this thread. I think it's important that people have a clear idea about EV's before drawing conclusions, and the constant spread of factually incorrect information is not going to lend itself to a productive debate.



transtek said:


> Surely it's more environmentally-friendly to properly maintain an existing car for 10 or even 20 years than to use up so many of the earth's resources buying a new electric car?, especially when you might need new batteries every 5 or so years?


Whilst intuitively it would seem that way, in fact it is not true! The vast majority of CO2 from ICE comes from tailpipe emissions, particularly when you factor in the energy required to extract the oil, refine it to petrol and the transport it to petrol stations.

There are reports looking at the lifetime CO2 emissions of EVs vs ICE and all conclude that EVs are vastly cleaner over the lifetime.

"Electric cars are much cleaner than internal combustion engine cars over their lifetime."

https://www.theicct.org/publications/EV-battery-manufacturing-emissions

"The lifecycle analysis of EVs shows that even when powered by the most carbon intensive electricity in Europe, they emit less GHG than a conventional diesel vehicle."

https://www.transportenvironment.org/sites/te/files/publications/2017_10_EV_LCA_briefing_final.pdf

What's most interesting is that even when you consider just the CO2 from tailpipe emissions, a brand new EV can still be cleaner even when factoring in the manufacturing side.

The fundamental thing to consider is the impact of the electricity generation used to charge the EV, and over the last few decades we have seen a massive decarbonisation of the UK's power grid as we move away from coal, and more towards nuclear and renewables.

https://assets.publishing.service.g...m/uploads/attachment_data/file/736152/Ch5.pdf

The second misconception is this idea that batteries only last 5yrs. It simply is not true. Every new EV I can think of (Leaf, Zoe, Tesla, Kia, Hyundai, etc.) all have 7/8 year and 100k mile warranties on the batteries. If they only lasted 5yrs, why would they entertain the idea of a longer warranty....?

There is a large amount of data from thousands of Tesla owners, and it shows how battery degradation only starts to reach 10% after 250,000km.

https://electrek.co/2018/04/14/tesla-battery-degradation-data/

Battery management Systems (BMS), improved battery chemistry (reducing the use of precious metals and even Lithium), battery cooling and reducing the usable proportion of the battery (manufacturers will 'lock' a proportion of the battery so that the battery doesn't actually ever charge to 100%) all maintain the battery longevity and mean that comparisons with batteries like in your mobile or laptop are not at all comparable.

Finally, there is a huge market for second life batteries. Typically for use in energy storage solutions. Whilst a degraded battery cell in an EV can be problematic when range is important, it will be perfectly suited to energy storage for home use. Not to mention that batteries can be recycled.

It is rare for an entire battery pack to be replaced, and there are already third party companies that can repair faulty battery cells for relative small costs (certainly far less than the money saved on fuel!).

My hope is that in 6/7 years, there will be independent companies that can convert older degraded batteries into very capable home storage units, but also upgrade the battery pack to higher capacity cells to increase range.



AndyN01 said:


> I'm happily with all of you on this.
> 
> I've posted before about the need for a proper and "true" cradle to grave environmental (NOT cost) impact analysis.
> 
> ...


See above for the reports Andy. There are plenty of independent reports looking at the full life. You just need to know how to find them.

Of course if you are going to look at the detailed impact of manufacturing, and generation of the EV's fuel (in terms of extraction and delivery) make sure you are also accounting for these things with ICE. There is no such thing as a carbon neutral solution, but the question is, do EV's provide a cleaner solution relative to the alternative (ICE). The answer is a resounding yes.

It's obvious what the impact of oil drilling and extraction has had on the environment....could even go as far as saying it's been the cause of some very long lasting wars in recent decades!



Darlofan said:


> The true eco cost will only be revealed once the pendulum swings from fossil fuels to electric vehicles. Then once the government are losing out on taxes the scientists will be flying out the woodwork with research about batteries being so damn harmful. That's when taxing will be racked up.
> Look at the way diesel owners have been played in the last 10 yrs. Problem comes in how to tax electric for use in cars, non car owners will be hit too just on trying to light their homes unless you have seperate meters for homes and vehicles.


I'm not sure you understand how scientists work....they were publishing reports and data about the public health risks of diesels for years. Why do you think there were EU regulations on the emission of NOx and particulates?

You just didn't hear about them because it wasn't in the news. That's a very important distinction to make. Unfortunately the general public don't spend their time reading scientific journals, and generally get their information from major news outlets. They in turn will only write about things that the public are interested in, which is why it took a large scandal from VW before people started taking an interest...

If you want to know more about the process of scientific research, in terms of funding, conducting the research, and finally dissemination through Peer-review journals, I will be more than happy to fill you in!


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## Walesy. (Oct 1, 2009)

DLGWRX02 said:


> So was it his fault for driving his car on the road? or your fault for walking in the road?
> You can still hear tyre noise and they amit a high pitch noise (they have to by law) they ain't entirely quite. I've narrowly missed a few who step out with out looking then when I've shouted at them, the first thing they do is take there damn earphones out.!
> 
> So with all due respect people need to remember the green cross code, Stop, look and LISTEN.


Already stated 'I was on the road'..sorry if you didn't understand that part bud or I mislead the situation, therefore I was committed and on the road, essentially there first. It was quite as a mouse imo. I dont wear ear phones, dont like them and are dangerous...youre spot on with that


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## andy__d (Jun 27, 2018)

DrEskimo said:


> blah blah blah


standard "ill quote things to make me look good/right" reply
giving yet again HALF a story, biased,,, you work for the BBC by any chance?

one VERY real point you Totally ignore , 
"climate change/global warming" 
the earth has been warming up since the last ice age
if it hadnt,,we wouldn't be here

the Crass stupidity and sheer arrogance to assume that Man is making changes,, astounds me.
GO read and learn without blinkers IF that is at all possible after that come back and admit your talking out your EV pipe.

(hint, solar cycles, solar emissions, orbital changes ,, ie things that man can NOT change or effect,, but make Fogging great things to scare the brain deads into coughing up MORE taxes and give them a sense of inflated self importance )


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## mar00 (Jun 24, 2018)

all those links seam to be from groups promoting EVA's and you can't really believe anything from tesla,

are you saying all scientist are completely unbiased and would never promote something for their own gain and how many of these independent reports are truly that not many if any at all,


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## DrEskimo (Jan 7, 2016)

mar00 said:


> all those links seam to be from groups promoting EVA's and you can't really believe anything from tesla


"The International Council on Clean Transportation *is an independent nonprofit organization* founded to provide first-rate, unbiased research and technical and scientific analysis to environmental regulators."

https://www.theicct.org/mission-history

"Credibility is our key asset.* Therefore we are non-profit and politically independent*, and we are strong believers in the power of science and evidence in policymaking. We commission and execute numerous pieces of cutting-edge policy research to shape and underpin our views."

https://www.transportenvironment.org/about-us

The link regarding the Tesla data is real world data collected by actual Tesla owners. Nothing from Tesla directly:

"A group of Tesla owners on the Dutch-Belgium Tesla Forum are gathering data from over 350 Tesla vehicles across the world and frequently updating it in a public Google file."

If you want to make claims about the partiality of these sources or their work, then I would very much like to see evidence, or indeed point out where they are making mistakes methodologically, analytically or intellectually.



mar00 said:


> are you saying all scientist are completely unbiased and would never promote something for their own gain and how many of these independent reports are truly that not many if any at all,


No I'm not. That would be a Strawman argument. I am not looking at the personal opinion of the scientists themselves, that would be silly. I am looking at the work, the methodology, the assumptions made, the analytical methods used and the conclusions drawn to see if they match the findings. I am looking at the science, which is unbiased, not the scientist.


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## DLGWRX02 (Apr 6, 2010)

Ok, however interesting the debate maybe, there will always be arguments for and against ev’s. 

However BACK on track with Matts original post, yes most the guys over there on that forum are people I wouldn’t want to sit and have a conversation with over dinner! In fact there’s quite a few I would like to poke right in the eye with a blunt stick.


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## andy__d (Jun 27, 2018)

DLGWRX02 said:


> Ok, however interesting the debate maybe, there will always be arguments for and against ev's.
> 
> However BACK on track with Matts original post, yes most the guys over there on that forum are people I wouldn't want to sit and have a conversation with over dinner! In fact there's quite a few I would like to poke right in the eye with a blunt stick.


you'd better use a "sustainable renewable eco friendly" blunt stick, with the appropriate warnings and hs&e bulldust tags claiming it Is for that purpose,, and have some biased links to half a story,, otherwise they Might moan (a lot more than normal)


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## ollienoclue (Jan 30, 2017)

It is not environmentally friendly to be scrapping cars all the time and buying new ones. That is mental. Just the volume of water used just to paint cars is an insane amount, and we haven't got onto the grief involved with obtaining the requisite lead, aluminium, steel or anything else to build the thing.

Of course a lot of emissions are at the exhaust, engines are notoriously pants in terms of thermodynamic efficiency whereas a powerstation can be held at power for long periods of time to optimise fuel use. It is also a lot simpler to clean the emissions of a power station than it is on a car.

I see no need for self-righteousness though; I will not be buying an electric car to save the world. The only way to save the world is consume less, preferably by having less children. And this is the crux of the matter- the poorest economies on Earth are not large enough to reach the required level of wealth to solve many of their problems. If you wanted to solve all the grief in the world you just need to make the bottom 20% of mankind a bit wealthier.


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## K777mk2 (Jun 30, 2016)

I am on my second Hybrid. Porsche Panamera 4 E hybrid.

Naturally because I drive a Porsche I am therefore up my own 


The reason I bought them is because of the company car tax saving. 
For the equivalent petrol only version the monthly tax would be immense, as it is its still £440 per month, but that's equivalent to what one of my employees pays for an X4 2.0d albeit hes a 40% tax payer too.


So far I have covered 16000 miles in the second car, almost 10k in electric, in 15 months.
My trips are often short, and often in busy traffic where I don't get to stretch its legs. My usual average speed for my daily trips is about 12mph

So far its average for all mileage combined is 41mpg. But in petrol only I average around 22mpg. Especially if on fairly short trips as the engine is cold as soon as it kicks in., 

10,000 miles at 22mpg is a saving of 454 gallons, at aprox £5.90 for vpower, A saving in petrol of £2600 ish. Less about £1 to charge ( range is about 20miles), so I can travel in rush hour queues for £1 as apose to £5.90 aprox.


Its a simple no brainer for the money saving aspect.

As for the environment, I didn't buy it for that at all, not a thought. 
I fill my green bin, take bottles to the bottle bank, that's about it. Like most of us I suspect.


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## Derekh929 (Aug 28, 2011)

K777mk2 said:


> I am on my second Hybrid. Porsche Panamera 4 E hybrid.
> 
> Naturally because I drive a Porsche I am therefore up my own
> 
> ...


I have to say that the hybrid is for me the stepping stone for the future for sure rather than beat us with a stick straight into full EV. for me one thing with the savings aspect that I have a niggle about is the overall cost of ownership with increased purchase price on some models over there combustion only options. saying that I'm all for a new 640hp alfa quad coupe with hybrid option that has be doing its rounds for me that might be my first step to saving the planet, apart from my endless recycling I do already that is.
The Panamera 4 E hybrid is a great example of the modern hybrid I could buy into


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## NeilG40 (Jan 1, 2009)

K777mk2 said:


> I am on my second Hybrid. Porsche Panamera 4 E hybrid.
> 
> Naturally because I drive a Porsche I am therefore up my own
> 
> ...


Get ready to see lots of EV's on the road next year when 2% company car tax kicks in.


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## ollienoclue (Jan 30, 2017)

The hybrid is the natural choice for someone who commutes into an urban area. You crawl the first 10-20 miles of your journey in traffic using only electric. You then escape the rat-run and waft the remainder of the journey on petrol, avoiding any congestion charge. It's a no-brainer.


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## ianrobbo1 (Feb 13, 2007)

I drive an old 2.2 car, it's thirsty as, If I had the brass I would buy a hybrid in a second, the electric option I would use in traffic as sitting there at 3 mph it'll be so much cheaper and environmentally friendly than chugging out expensive petrol, I don't think the full electric option is even worth looking at for the aforementioned reasons.


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## init6 (Mar 28, 2012)

I went for a BMW 530e this time around and I'm really enjoying the electric power and the savings on fuel. I've got lots of short journeys but a need for long journeys every month or so. The hybrid ticks all the boxes for me.

And being a BMW I even save battery power by not using the indicators


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## MSwiss (Sep 25, 2017)

init6 said:


> And being a BMW I even save battery power by not using the indicators


:lol::lol::lol: loved this quote! made me smile.

An electric car wouldn't work for me as they don't have the range but I do see the advantages of a hybrid and maybe I will consider it next time.

An electric car in the UK does appeal but I have to be honest not for the green aspect purely that it stands for long periods of with no use. I presume it wouldn't suffer like a normal car would? I have no clue on that as I have never looked into it. It works in my head lol undeniable logic right there:lol:.


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## RandomlySet (Jul 10, 2007)

Well, this topic gained more traction than I expected :lol:


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## wish wash (Aug 25, 2011)

The same people who like to buy strawberrys 12 months of the year


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## K777mk2 (Jun 30, 2016)

NeilG40 said:


> Get ready to see lots of EV's on the road next year when 2% company car tax kicks in.


They are already banging on my door for a hybrid.

The downside of a Hybrid from the company point of view its more expensive because they are doing 25k+ miles a year covering the whole country, and so a diesel still wins for the cost of running over 3 or 4 years. 
If we were a local service company for sure we would be running hybrids or at least moving to them.

Actually the Govt are beginning to turn the screw on hybrids too, my first one had £0 RFL for all the 3 years I had it. The new one was £0 for a year then £440 from then on.

@Derekh929 I came from a 640d m sport, I was looking at an M6, (pre our hybrids it was more tax efficient to buy our own cars), after having a demo Panamera S E hybrid it took prob less than 5 mins to realise the Porsche was streaks ahead. (not performance).

With the new Panamera 4, they added sports exhaust as an option. Which I just love.

If your thinking of one, seriously its a fantastic car. Low cost urban driving, and 4.5 seconds when you want it.


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## vsideboy (Sep 1, 2006)

yeah all environmentalists are the same pal.

"oh lets stop eating meat and dairy to save all the cows"

"Great, so the cows are no longer required and therefore all go extinct, well done you've saved them all...."


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## shl-kelso (Dec 27, 2012)

There is plenty are mis-information about electric cars - battery will require replacing after 5 years, grid cannot cope etc, etc - mostly from people who’ve never been near one, let alone driven one. 

There are compromises needed - small choice of vehicles just now, high demand means second hand prices are actually going up rather than down (some owners actually made a profit after buying them cheap a few years back), and potential range issues/charger infrastructure for those needing to do 100s miles a day. 

However there are some major benefits too, both in fuel savings, the ability to easily charge at home providing you have off-street parking with power near by, and a far superior driving experience compared to ICE (almost full torque from standstill and throughout the speed range makes really is noticeable).

Battery degradation now seems to be mostly age related except where you have a cell failure (which can potentially be repackaged without a full battery pack swap by a number of independent specialists around the country), and is not related to charge sessions/types. There are plenty of 8/9 year old Gen 1 Leafs still on the road although they now only provide 50-60 miles of range on a charge typically. But for someone with a shortish commute and/or home/work charging then they can offer low running costs. 

PHEVs (as opposed to tiny battery non-plugins) are a halfway house, and make the drivetrain much more complex, but the ability to drive long distance without requiring EV charging is a bonus when there is not a full EV model available that meets your needs. That’s why I changed from a large diesel SUV to an Outlander. It’s not cheap, but it looks likely to save me £4k in fuel compared to the similarly priced/sized SUV I would have otherwise chosen. And for short journeys (upto 25 miles in winter and upto 40 miles in summer) I can run in EV mode. The only full EV model that offers similar space is still a Tesla X, and is more than twice the price!

I also own a full EV (30kWh Kia Soul) as our second car, and simply cannot see me going back to ICE now I’ve become used to EV motoring. It was the running costs and low depreciation that attracted me to EVs in the first place, and the zero emission aspect was a bonus rather than a major factor in my decision to move to EV.


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## K777mk2 (Jun 30, 2016)

shl-kelso said:


> There is plenty are mis-information about electric cars - battery will require replacing after 5 years, grid cannot cope etc, etc - mostly from people who've never been near one, let alone driven one.
> 
> There are compromises needed - small choice of vehicles just now, high demand means second hand prices are actually going up rather than down (some owners actually made a profit after buying them cheap a few years back), and potential range issues/charger infrastructure for those needing to do 100s miles a day.
> 
> ...


I agree with what you have said, however...

Mine "does" 32 miles when fully charged. But it wont.
Same as any fuel, range drops the harder you drive, hills etc, cold will eat the battery. Mine drops from 32 to maybe 12 in cold, and only 22 urban in the warm. Maybe in the warm when cruising on a motorway will it do 32 miles.

This is my second PHEV, and both the same, same with biz partner, and other forums.

Don't expect what it says in the sales brochure, just like you wouldn't expect the same MPG on a petrol car.

That said, I hope you do.

My first was 2015, this is 2017 and the range of the battery increased from 22 to 32 max. So the technology is improving. T he battery warranty is 7 years I think on a Porsche, but that's the warranty, its likely to last longer in real life. There first hybrid I think was 2010 and on Porsche forums there's no talk of anyone needing a battery.


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## shl-kelso (Dec 27, 2012)

K777mk2 said:


> I agree with what you have said, however...
> 
> Mine "does" 32 miles when fully charged. But it wont.
> 
> ...


Mine is the new MY19 Outlander PHEV, so has slightly bigger battery, different engine etc. As I've also been running a full EV for around 4 years now I tend to find I drive much more economically in EV mode compared to when the ICE is used! I've found that EV use when travelling over 60mph is generally best avoided as it eats the battery at speed. It's also very heavy on fuel when running the ICE above 70mph too. But I've found a driving style that suits me and gets a decent amount from the battery without driving like Moss Daisy . I did achieve 40 miles on a full charge during the my test drive back in summer, and I regularly managed 20 miles in winter provided I preheated while plugged in before leaving home.

And after 6 months of ownership I'm averaging a little under 50mpg. This may not sound impressive, but it's nearly 20mpg better than the diesel SUV that the Outlander replaced. In my case it's the longer journeys (200-300 miles) that bring down my average mpg, but I'm still way ahead overall compared to the hat I was previously driving.


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## DLGWRX02 (Apr 6, 2010)

RandomlySet said:


> Well, this topic gained more traction than I expected :lol:


Yeah, bloody trouble maker..lol


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