# Epoch's eco wash?



## Epoch (Jul 30, 2006)

Worth a discussion i thought.

Now I'm in the process of covering my car in all the things that last a while and exhibit great muck resistance. The theory being that i can wash the car weekly with the minimum of harmful chemicals (good for the car as well as the environment) and WATER :doublesho (shock horror, but if the issue is run off content, I'm trying to reduce the harmful content).

The wheels are sealed up pretty well, this is the drivers front after 1500 miles



















The wheels currently have 5 weeks old Swissvax Autobarn over Zaino AIO on the faces and Swissvax Autobarn over Jeffs acrylic strong on the inners.

First up a blast of with the jet wash, no product used at this point



This in the winter would actually do for me (less time spent in the cold the better) however today i did brush wash, more of that later.

Next product on the wheels will be Nanolex Premium sealant after some initial testing on the wife's this looks to be a massive stage up 

Next onto the car, 15ml of Dodo BTBM was added to the foam lance and 1 litre of warm water



you can see the Nanolex window sealant doing it thing well here.

this was then rinsed off



next up to show how the 6 week old Vintage is holding up



I then proceeded to wash the whole car body over with one bucket and about 8ml of BTBM (with only the traffic film remaining and my trusty Z sponge offering lots of sudsy water mix glide), once I'd done the body work i filled the half empty remaing solution and up with the hose (so using what was left of the shampoo mix) to wash the wheels over with a few brushes to get the inner rims clean.

Whole car then towel dried.

So there we have the Epoch adaption of the nearly Eco wash , yes i used water but only the muck from the car and about 25ml of Dodo BTBM was added to the run off :thumb:

I have a polishing session to complete before the paintwork gets some Nanolex treatment, and i also have some curve ball plans surrounding this to offer me more from the product 

Whats your thoughts, does carefully selecting the products used in LSP and reducing the chemicals used during weekly washes constitute an Eco friendly slant?

I may have used a reasonable amount of water, but i'm not the kind of guy that only flushes the toilet after a number 2.


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## Ross (Apr 25, 2007)

Makes sense I can get most of our cars clean with just using my PW.


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## Bigpikle (May 21, 2007)

thanks for posting this and starting the discussion Jon :thumb:

Its great that you can get the car clean with so little chemical use, especially wheels, as anything thats strong enough to deal with wheel muck is just not going to be good for washing down drains - I dont care what anyone says about biodegradability  One of my personal aims for MY detailing is to eliminate as much chemical use as possible FULL STOP, so this is a good looking way to do that 

One issue though is the run-off itself. The fact that the plain water still runs off carrying all the effluent from the car and everything its collected since the last wash, is still an issue though. Unless that is trapped and disposed of through a waste system that deals with the contaminants, it still presents an issue. While the use of chemicals is significantly reduced, and I am a big fan of that, it still wouldnt get you past the PPG13 EA guidelines 

It is making me wonder though...lots of water and less chemical vs low water use with a rinseless product and little to dispose of  Good for debate :thumb:

Car looks cracking BTW


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## Epoch (Jul 30, 2006)

Bigpikle said:


> thanks for posting this and starting the discussion Jon :thumb:
> 
> Its great that you can get the car clean with so little chemical use, especially wheels, as anything thats strong enough to deal with wheel muck is just not going to be good for washing down drains - I dont care what anyone says about biodegradability  One of my personal aims for MY detailing is to eliminate as much chemical use as possible FULL STOP, so this is a good looking way to do that
> 
> ...


So containing muck in cloths is a better way as the washing machine flushes it through the domestic drains etc

Along the principle of stuff everybody else, i have the option of having the wash bay draining through the domestic system (it would also catch rain water though).

My garage roof rain water collection is all planned and only being stopped by the cost of the tankage so i'm moving in the right direction :thumb:


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## Ross (Apr 25, 2007)

With me I dont have to worry about drains because our house is on top of a hill and our car park is some very hard hardcore god knows how deep covered with chips and the water soaks into that causing no problems.


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## Epoch (Jul 30, 2006)

RosswithaOCD said:


> With me I dont have to worry about drains because our house is on top of a hill and our car park is some very hard hardcore god knows how deep covered with chips and the water soaks into that causing no problems.


Still constitues as run off i'm afraid, it soaks back into the water course


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## Guest (May 3, 2009)

But look at how much chemical you have on the car to get to that stage.

How many "eco" people will take the time to seal their wheels? And to get the wheels into a condition where the sealant works best takes alot of chemical use and time.

Take my GFs Mums car, i want to seal their wheels so as to use less chemicals on them, however, i need to remove the wheels and then use a chemical to clean them up ready for the sealant. So thats 2 (at least) lots of chemicals going on the wheels alone so i can just use a jet wash to clean them, and even then, few months down the road they will need doing again.

To seal the car, with 100% correction for best results, I will be looking at 7-10 different chemicals.

Just so i can use a shampoo and jet wash instead of apc etc etc

Is that eco?


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## Epoch (Jul 30, 2006)

matt1263 said:


> But look at how much chemical you have on the car to get to that stage.
> 
> How many "eco" people will take the time to seal their wheels? And to get the wheels into a condition where the sealant works best takes alot of chemical use and time.
> 
> ...


Yes IMHO

Using chemicals on first application to remove crud and then on occasion (12 months with Nanolex premium) later doing the same is much better than spraying chemicals on every week

I agree with what your saying Matt, I'll still use the nasty stuff if i get lazy when the sealants etc run out and the sealant and waxes themselves, but if I have lessend the amount I've used monthly/quarterly/annually and it all helps i think i'm going the right way.

Change is more effective when everybody is heading in the same direction :thumb:


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## Guest (May 3, 2009)

Oh I agree, its why I am looking at sealants for the GFs Mums car, once cleaned (if they let me loose with rotary on it) and sealed then will be able to use less chemicals to clean it, so long term its better.

But thats us on here, and those of us who want to use less chemicals.

Its alot of chemical use to begin with, even a QD is a chemical, to get to where your car is in its protection.

For me to do the same is going to take time, money and chemicals.


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## dominic84 (Jan 27, 2007)

> But look at how much chemical you have on the car to get to that stage.
> 
> How many "eco" people will take the time to seal their wheels? And to get the wheels into a condition where the sealant works best takes alot of chemical use and time.
> 
> ...


I think it depends how you look at the eco philosophy because for me it has three basic strands:

1. waste run off/water pollution
2. drinking water use
3. carbon cost of packaging/chemicals/shipping

I'm personally concerned with number 2 which is why I try and use less water, other's like Epoch seem to care about point number 1 and some people won't care about any of the three.

Your point will definitely be of an issue to anyone who is particularly concerned with point 3 but I think the great thing about 'eco' car washing is we can all have different reasons to get involved. However unless your totally eco (in which case would you even have a car?) then these opinions may clash with each other


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## Bigpikle (May 21, 2007)

Epoch said:


> So containing muck in cloths is a better way as the washing machine flushes it through the domestic drains etc
> 
> Along the principle of stuff everybody else, i have the option of having the wash bay draining through the domestic system (it would also catch rain water though).
> 
> My garage roof rain water collection is all planned and only being stopped by the cost of the tankage so i'm moving in the right direction :thumb:


the domestic system goes to a treatment works, so at least is treated. I think it gets a little more complex from there though, as some products commonly used in detailing may contain chemicals that interfere with the treatment process 

When I use ONR 99% of the run-off is actually in my bucket, captured by the wash media and transferred into the rinse bucket. That at least means no washing machine is needed to clean MFs etc as they are only used as drying towels so are clean but wet at the end. I either put this rinse bucket water down my sink or water some pot plants if its not too full of nasty brake dust muck etc. They so far dont seem to mind....

Your garage would collect HUGE amounts of water matey - you'd never need turn on a tap again IMHO. I dont think collecting your own waste water is practical though (eg into a tank for some kind of collection ala Polished Bliss etc), but if there's a cheap way to have it drain into your household 'grey' water system that would be perfect - rain water and safe disposal. No idea if the water companies would have any issue with that but as a domestic car washer only I cant see any reason to have an issue.

You are getting me really thinking on these sealants BTW


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## Guest (May 3, 2009)

I dont like sealants, its a lot of hassle and I dont like to look of them on car paint, however, I do think they are more "eco" once applied.


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## Epoch (Jul 30, 2006)

matt1263 said:


> Oh I agree, its why I am looking at sealants for the GFs Mums car, once cleaned (if they let me loose with rotary on it) and sealed then will be able to use less chemicals to clean it, so long term its better.
> 
> But thats us on here, and those of us who want to use less chemicals.
> 
> ...


I think Dominic has it above, it's a huge mind set change that will take time, probably money and in this case chemicals

I think where this section has most interested me is to think about differeing solutions, we were discussing yesterday our concerns over the future of detailing for other reasons, but this also has a huge impact.

Show the inlaws your now perfect practice panel  they'll let you try out :thumb:


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## Bigpikle (May 21, 2007)

dominic84 said:


> I think it depends how you look at the eco philosophy because for me it has three basic strands:
> 
> 1. waste run off/water pollution
> 2. drinking water use
> ...


:thumb:

For myself I defined it as:

_...using products and techniques that do not harm the environment, including people around us, or are designed to prevent environmental damage._

and I defined 3 areas:

1. min use of resources (includes water obviously)
2. min waste
3. eco friendly products

Just me personal way of defining it and how i want to develop my skills, techniques and products :thumb:


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## Epoch (Jul 30, 2006)

matt1263 said:


> I dont like sealants, its a lot of hassle and I dont like to look of them on car paint, however, I do think they are more "eco" once applied.


What's your favourite wax and what sealants have you tried Matt?


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## caledonia (Sep 13, 2008)

Thanks Jon.
Your wheel are holding up well not to mention the amazing water shedding power of Nanolex.
Totally different spin on the Eco theme. Where chemicals and products are considered and not used. Which can have a knock on affect in so many ways.

Water conservation can be easily resolved as in a water butt.

But this brings me to the area. That I personally think is crazy effluent that washes from the car. Yes the law say no to this as in storm drains. But how can this be defined and legislated. When it happens every day of the week due to the weather.
This is the area the concerns and confuses me. As how can this possibly be enforced as two wrong don't make a right. If the government and the law makes got there house in order first. I personally think it would be easier for other to follow suit.

But thank for your post, as every bit of insight will help other to consider different avenues and possible think themselves.
Gordon.


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## Epoch (Jul 30, 2006)

Thanks Gordon,

Oh the irony of being fined for washing the road salf/tar from your car in the future.

Current hot potato's will wrongly make scape goats of some, so the more thought about "potential" solutions will help.

I always like the thought that i could half the water i use by washing the car every two weeks but would be producing run off that's twice the contamination. - no win situation it's got to come off somehow


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## L200 Steve (Oct 25, 2005)

Epoch said:


> Thanks Gordon,
> 
> Oh the irony of being fined for washing the road salf/tar from your car in the future.
> 
> ...


Will you have less to clean off each time that you do wash though, through the protection of the nanolex etc preventing contaminant from bonding in the first instance?


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## Epoch (Jul 30, 2006)

L200 Steve said:


> Will you have less to clean off each time that you do wash though, through the protection of the nanolex etc preventing contaminant from bonding in the first instance?


I honestly think so, based on the muck resisting properties, but I'm hoping the BM test wheel will be able to show this over the coming months :thumb:


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## Bigpikle (May 21, 2007)

L200 Steve said:


> Will you have less to clean off each time that you do wash though, through the protection of the nanolex etc preventing contaminant from bonding in the first instance?





Epoch said:


> I honestly think so, based on the muck resisting properties, but I'm hoping the BM test wheel will be able to show this over the coming months :thumb:


does make you wonder if actually you'll get far more dirt removed when driving through heavy rain etc, if it cant bond as well in the first place. I would really like to see if this had an impact on the amount of salt and crud collected in winter. If I had a white car I dont think I'd hesitate at having a coating like this on it


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## Epoch (Jul 30, 2006)

Bigpikle said:


> does make you wonder if actually you'll get far more dirt removed when driving through heavy rain etc, if it cant bond as well in the first place. I would really like to see if this had an impact on the amount of salt and crud collected in winter. If I had a white car I dont think I'd hesitate at having a coating like this on it


My current thoughts are than Nanolex will be like the base layer of LSP (Always ensuring the car is protected) on the paintwork and that, something with equally as good muck resistance like, Vintage can be a sacrificial LSP on the top

The only downside could be the soft nature of the wax becoming embeded with contaminats, but then i guess that's what it's there for :thumb:


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## Nanolex (Jun 8, 2008)

Epoch said:


> Yes IMHO
> 
> Using chemicals on first application to remove crud and then on occasion (12 months with Nanolex premium) later doing the same is much better than spraying chemicals on every week
> 
> ...


I think this is really a good point. Many customer find their cars paint to be considerably more dirt-repelling than it was before and then safe cleaners etc.
It's also the time you save if you p.e. have mucky rims and find that they are much easier to clean/maintain (as you can see here: http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=115993)

I see this as a huge benefit, not only in the car sector because the same can be done with bathrooms, kitchens, concrete, wood etc.

Having this in mind I also implied the lotus effect idea in our logo to show this, right now we really try to stress this aspect because most customers seem to still cut it all down to the durability and think we're basically selling a long-life-wax...

I really appreciate that people here on DW already have this topic on their list, I think that these aspects will become more important over the next years, and I'm really looking forward to all the things that (might) be coming up in the future!

Great topic, it is really interesting to hear so many opinions!

Cheers,

Florian


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## Relaited (Jan 27, 2009)

Let’s see … my first impressions.

I think I am OK with putting protectants and sealants. I don’t think they have a material or adverse impact on the environment? I think there is a beneficial use. And, clearly in this model, if you have something on the wheel that prevents the build up of nasty contaminants and pollution, so it makes it easier to remove and prevents the need to nasty solutions, I think that is a win. If I have a vehicle that I know I will have to take car of the whole year, then when the customer pays for a wax, I will throw on a Paint Sealant … just makes my life easier in the long run. 

The impact of weather on my business is significant, I do not have the budget to overcome the mindset. But here in So California, it will not rain again until the fall or winter. And at that point, on a small scale, and just before the first rain, I have been successful on getting customers to come in to “remove contaminants and pollution” before the rain, and to get some protection on the auto. First Rain will take all the stuff off the car and put it into the water ways type of positioning. 

I don’t buy the argument that some other industry pollutes more than this one, or until the government does more to prevent pollution from cars, I will not take steps to prevent the pollution I take off. I have the mind set that it is my responsibility to properly contain and discharge the pollution I take off the car.

Lastly, if there is a sealant that means you can simply wash away the contaminants, I think you still need to have proper containment and proper discharge. Same argument I make when someone claims biodegradability of a product … fish cannot separate the good stuff from the bad, so need to handle the entire discharge. In my opinion, you cannot let the contaminants and pollution hit the ground.

jim


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## Nanolex (Jun 8, 2008)

Relaited said:


> Let's see … my first impressions.
> 
> I think I am OK with putting protectants and sealants. I don't think they have a material or adverse impact on the environment? I think there is a beneficial use. And, clearly in this model, if you have something on the wheel that prevents the build up of nasty contaminants and pollution, so it makes it easier to remove and prevents the need to nasty solutions, I think that is a win. If I have a vehicle that I know I will have to take car of the whole year, then when the customer pays for a wax, I will throw on a Paint Sealant … just makes my life easier in the long run.
> 
> ...


Really good point... over here in Germany washing your car is only allowed in certain places that are equipped with an oil-splitter (hope that's the proper word) etc. and even if you are going to a car wash (elephant car wash etc.) where you have a PW and all the other tools you are not allowed to open the hood and wash the engine bay (15000€ bill for cleaning the whole discharging system coming after they taped you doing it).

We can't prevent the contaminants from being improperly discharged (I mean we can't keep most people from doing it, no matter if they do it on purpose or not), but I'd say not having the additional (sometimes very harsh) cleaners in addition to the removed contamination is already a start - I guess the containment and discharge can only be regulated by the local governments...

Is there any regulation regarding this in SoCal?

Cheers,

Florian


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## Relaited (Jan 27, 2009)

Many Regulators in So Cal are being more aggressive with Non Point Source Pollution. In one Region, they are removing activities previously in an Exempt category. One is Residential Landscape Irrigation. 2 big issues are that the water is leaving the private property, entering the public right of way and the conveyance to the Storm Drain. The other is the fertilizers and pesticides get introduced.

The Other is Home car Washing. Both are now under zero discharge standards.

Also, the Mobile Detailers will now be required to operate as a Commercial Car Wash. Nothing on water conservation, but they will be required to capture contaminants and pollution and properly discharge. Many Cities will require a visit to City Hall to get a permit to operate. Other Regions are developing Pilot programs to control “Mobile Washers”. Includes Carpet Cleaners, but everyone knows our industry is the largest violator.

Once these new NPDES Permits are adopted, they have 1 year to implement Best Management Practices to achieve new Standards. This will be a great big surprise to many in this industry.

This, combined with the state of Drought we are in should make for an interesting summer!

-jim


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## dominic84 (Jan 27, 2007)

> Many Regulators in So Cal are being more aggressive with Non Point Source Pollution. In one Region, they are removing activities previously in an Exempt category. One is Residential Landscape Irrigation. 2 big issues are that the water is leaving the private property, entering the public right of way and the conveyance to the Storm Drain. The other is the fertilizers and pesticides get introduced.
> 
> The Other is Home car Washing. Both are now under zero discharge standards.
> 
> ...


That's very interesting to here what is happening in your country and indeed the info from Germany. It sounds as though our government needs to take this a bit more seriously.


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## Lowiepete (Mar 29, 2009)

Fascinating thread guys! My "eco" worries, using a waterless wash method,
means that I'm using MF cleaning fluids, especially for soaking MFs that wipe
away brake dust from parts where the brush doesn't reach. Ordinary washing
detergent, already reduced by having a water softener, doesn't get them 
clean enough. 

The FK1000p on the wheels is holding up well, so brushing the fronts clean is 
not any great chore. Getting behind the spokes with a cloth dampened with 
ONR, after spraying ONR at QD strength to loosen the dust, is just fiddly 
rather than difficult. Of course, the MFs suffer. This thread has set me
wondering whether there's an alternative way to clean the wheels. Carrying 
buckets full of water is out of the question, but maybe there's mileage in
using a couple of litres at a time, with ONR and grout sponge.

I want to cut out the purchase of MF cleaning fluids, not least because of
their expense, let alone the chemicals they contain. That way, it's just 2
tablespoons of washing detergent and a mini-load wash in the machine usually
every 2 weeks. I love this Forum, so many trains of thought are started here!

Regards,
Steve


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## reparebrise (Jan 19, 2009)

Lowiepete said:


> Fascinating thread guys! My "eco" worries, using a waterless wash method,
> means that I'm using MF cleaning fluids, especially for soaking MFs that wipe
> away brake dust from parts where the brush doesn't reach. Ordinary washing
> detergent, already reduced by having a water softener, doesn't get them
> ...


Steve

No need to purchase special FM cleaning fluids, simply wash them with your normal laundry soap, then instead of fabric softener, rinse with vinegar(white). While they may remain stained, they do come clean and soft, and ready to tackle your cleaning jobs.l


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## Lowiepete (Mar 29, 2009)

reparebrise said:


> While they may remain stained, they do come clean and soft, and ready to tackle your cleaning jobs.l


I already do that, but I'm not keen on putting say 4 really filthy cloths into
the machine with say 15 others that have only light dirt within them. I've
tried pre-soaking in normal detergent, but it doesn't get the cloths free of
most of the brake dust / greasy stuff.

When I use the MF cleaner, which is probably mostly degreaser, the colour 
and feel of the water is just disgusting! I'm not sure that I'd want that fluid 
going around inside a brand new washing machine. What I'm going to try is
some APC just for these cloths and see if that will replace the MF cleaner.

Regards,
Steve


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## Saxoguy (Nov 24, 2009)

nice work!


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