# Modified hot hatch week in Autocar



## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

Quite an interesting read in Autocar this week about tuned hot hatch backs.

The Megane RS with K-Tec PP2 with 300bhp, Focus ST with 292bhp, Mazda 3MPS with 335bhp and the Astra GTC VXR with 320bhp.

All cars were a bit faster than previously standard tested cars.

However the Focus ST just managed 150mph. Ford claim 153mph for standard.

The Megane RS couldn't crack the 150mph bracket and quite embarrassingly the Astra only managed 140mph.

With 320bhp it managed 0-60 in the factory claimed 5.9secs after the standard one was only 6.4secs.

The conclusion questions if hot hatchbacks have hit a development cul-de-sac.

As they also pointed out, even after pumping thousands of pounds on tuning these hot hatchbacks the BMW M135i is still appreciabily faster.


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## Porkypig (Jun 20, 2012)

Interesting article and interesting question you raise. I think you may be right with reagrds the development ceiling but also questioning the logic in investing so much money and time in 'udpgrading' the internals for relatively small (if any) performance gains.

Traction in front drives with so much power will always be a problem and as cars get fatter and heavier with additional safety req's etc the comparative performance will be dulled. Go back 10 - 20 years and a hot hatch with 300 bhp plus would have been balistic, if not undriveable. 

It reminds me a bit of the mega horse power race back inthe 90's with cosworths sierras. Fun I suppose but I never really saw the logic in investing so much money for cars that would expire within 100 miles and at the end of day were taxis with big turbos and stupid paint jobs. Just buy a supercar and don't look a t1t!! :lol: 

It is interesting (and unsurprising) also that the switch to rear drive in a 135i will then deliver the performance that should be expected of such lofty BHP ratings. And you get a better car al round to boot. IMHO.:thumb:


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## andy665 (Nov 1, 2005)

Unfortunately, lots of people still believe that "power is king" - thanks goodness I have grown up and realised that "feel" and "balance" are whats put a smile on your face and not headline grabbing power claims


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

Porkypig said:


> Interesting article and interesting question you raise. I think you may be right with reagrds the development ceiling but also questioning the logic in investing so much money and time in 'udpgrading' the internals for relatively small (if any) performance gains.
> 
> Traction in front drives with so much power will always be a problem and as cars get fatter and heavier with additional safety req's etc the comparative performance will be dulled. Go back 10 - 20 years and a hot hatch with 300 bhp plus would have been balistic, if not undriveable.
> 
> ...


The M135i was tested by Autocar at 4.0secs 30-70mph for compairson.

It does seem to be that most of the hot hatchback manufacturers are getting too keen on overinflated claims of performance.


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

andy665 said:


> Unfortunately, lots of people still believe that "power is king" - thanks goodness I have grown up and realised that "feel" and "balance" are whats put a smile on your face and not headline grabbing power claims


Power does mean a lot.

Nothing beats that sinking into your seat feeling.

If feel and balance was the key ingredients for a car, you wouldn't be considering a FWD hot hatch in the first instance ignoring the power figures.


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## Blackroc (Dec 10, 2012)

Very interesting read this...(and will be swiped to another forum.. ;-) )

I own an M135i - and these reviews consistently back up what those of us who own them already know - that as standard, the M135i is the most complete all round hot hatch out there. Full stop.

BMW have raised the bar so high in what they have produced, both in terms of kit, performance, drivability, sense of drama, image, practicality and price point, that the other manufacturers are seriously lagging behind. 

It's sheer pace is something to behold. I played against a mate of ours in a 58 plate, heavily remapped 135 (pushing 410bhp with an LSD) on a private road, and until you are well into tripple figures he was toast on every 0-60 and mid range run. This thing is capable of annoying done very serious supercars!

This car is not a 1 trick pony however. It's actually used by my other half for the school runs and her 20 minute run into her work. All through urban areas, yet its still getting 26-29mpg everyday. Motorways you get 36 at an 80 average over 350 miles....it cruises distances so effortlessly, comfortably and without drama. 

It won't be to all tastes, and that's fine, life would be boring if we all wanted the same things from a car...

But if you are in the 'hot hatch' market for a new or nearly used car, why would you look anywhere else right now?


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## mart. (Jul 7, 2008)

Kerr said:


> The M135i was tested by Autocar at 4.0secs 30-70mph for compairson.
> 
> It does seem to be that most of the hot hatchback manufacturers are getting too keen on overinflated claims of performance.


That'll be the FWD vs RWD difference.

The RWD will be better at lower speeds/gears.

FWD are better from 60>


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## Blackroc (Dec 10, 2012)

mart. said:


> That'll be the FWD vs RWD difference.
> 
> The RWD will be better at lower speeds/gears.
> 
> FWD are better from 60>


How are FWD cars better at more that 60mph?

Aerodynamics force the rear of a car down giving RWD even better grip at high speeds. How many FWD formula 1 cars do you see?


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

mart. said:


> That'll be the FWD vs RWD difference.
> 
> The RWD will be better at lower speeds/gears.
> 
> FWD are better from 60>


Eh? Are you serious?

Ever noticed past hot hatch performance everyone ditches FWD?

You better write to tell Pagini, Ferrari and all the F1 teams etc and tell them where they have been getting it wrong.


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## Blackroc (Dec 10, 2012)

Kerr said:


> Eh? Are you serious?
> 
> Ever noticed past hot hatch performance everyone ditches FWD?
> 
> You better write to tell Pagini, Ferrari and all the F1 teams etc and tell them where they have been getting it wrong.


Lmao!

I beat you to it lol!


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## mart. (Jul 7, 2008)

Not better than RWD, thats were they perform better. :lol:


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## Blackroc (Dec 10, 2012)

mart. said:


> Not better than RWD, thats were they perform better. :lol:


Hmmm...

Lol!


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## mart. (Jul 7, 2008)

on the other hand............






:thumb:


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## Dixondmn (Oct 12, 2007)

Kerr said:


> However the Focus ST just managed 150mph. Ford claim 153mph for standard.
> 
> The Megane RS couldn't crack the 150mph bracket and quite embarrassingly the Astra only managed 140mph.
> 
> ...


In short Yes. but how fast do you want a car to be?
You'll never hit 150mph and even if you did, you'd have a limited amount of time before your tyres failed.

Hot hatches are about 20-70mph grunt, balance, noise and smiles!


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## andy665 (Nov 1, 2005)

Kerr said:


> Power does mean a lot.
> 
> Nothing beats that sinking into your seat feeling.
> 
> If feel and balance was the key ingredients for a car, you wouldn't be considering a FWD hot hatch in the first instance ignoring the power figures.


Power means nothing in relation to whether a car is considered to be a good drivers car or not - Mini (original) Cooper, Lotus Elan (original), Puma Racing, Toyota GT86

I'm not saying that big BHP cannot put a grin on your face but in big power a guarantee of it being a good drivers car


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## andy665 (Nov 1, 2005)

Blackroc said:


> Very interesting read this...(and will be swiped to another forum.. ;-) )
> 
> I own an M135i - and these reviews consistently back up what those of us who own them already know - that as standard, the M135i is the most complete all round hot hatch out there. Full stop.
> 
> ...


Have to agree, I am not of the way it looks at all but as an all round package I can't see how you could buy anything else at the moment - some good deals available on them as well as they are not selling too well - certainly its unusual for a manufacturer to have good levels of stock of any car available


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## Blackroc (Dec 10, 2012)

Hot hatch shoot out...






M135i v RS3


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## Blackroc (Dec 10, 2012)

andy665 said:


> Have to agree, I am not of the way it looks at all but as an all round package I can't see how you could buy anything else at the moment - some good deals available on them as well as they are not selling too well - certainly its unusual for a manufacturer to have good levels of stock of any car available


Not selling too well?

Waiting list for 3drs is May, 5drs June unless you catch a cancelled order. Every Dealer is asking for extra slots because BMW can't build them fast enough!

The low APR rates offered initially on them have now ceased, as have the high discounts on new (unless you find a dealership lucky enough that is desperate for your business!)

Sales are 80% Auto / 20% Manual

Most popular choice is Estoril Blue Auto..

I run an M135i Facebook Forum site with close links to BMW so I get quite a bit of info ;-)


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## Derekh929 (Aug 28, 2011)

To much BHP through the front wheels has its limit just can't get the power down you see that in the Astra I think Renault sport are best at making this work for me. I would say upto 250bhp pushing it, the cars need to be lighter stripped out ST would be very good


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

Dixondmn said:


> In short Yes. but how fast do you want a car to be?
> You'll never hit 150mph and even if you did, you'd have a limited amount of time before your tyres failed.
> 
> Hot hatches are about 20-70mph grunt, balance, noise and smiles!


I've managed 150mph quite a few times.

Modern tyres have no issues with 150mph. All branded tyres have speed ratings to handle that without issue.

All the cars that do 200mph still take a reasonable amount of time to go from 150 to 200mph without the tyres failing.

Acceleration is where fun is to be had. On saying that very few cars outside lightweight Caterhams etc have fast acceleration before running out of puff early.


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

andy665 said:


> Have to agree, I am not of the way it looks at all but as an all round package I can't see how you could buy anything else at the moment - some good deals available on them as well as they are not selling too well - certainly its unusual for a manufacturer to have good levels of stock of any car available


Can't say I've seen much stock and I've been asking.

I know a lot of people waiting on their car to arrive.


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## nick3814 (Dec 31, 2010)

Speaking as someone who owns a modified RS250 with slightly more power than the article quotes its not about top end and 0-60, pretty pointless tests in the real world, it's all about the driveability. The difference in mine once mapped is like night and day, it's all about midrange grunt which is just awesome IMO.


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## Porkypig (Jun 20, 2012)

Blackroc said:


> Hot hatch shoot out...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Truly a little monster that BM!


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## andy665 (Nov 1, 2005)

Kerr said:


> Can't say I've seen much stock and I've been asking.
> 
> I know a lot of people waiting on their car to arrive.


I work with 3 BMW dealer groups and there are cars out in group stock - obviously if you want a specific spec then its a factory order but there are cars out there


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## Derekh929 (Aug 28, 2011)

andy665 said:


> I work with 3 BMW dealer groups and there are cars out in group stock - obviously if you want a specific spec then its a factory order but there are cars out there


Seen a few last night on my search of dealer stock for F30:thumb:


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## Blackroc (Dec 10, 2012)

^ yup - it's people trying to cash in on their cars who want cars now and won't wait.

Group Stock will probably be demos that need shifting within 3 months of registration...


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## andy665 (Nov 1, 2005)

Blackroc said:


> ^ yup - it's people trying to cash in on their cars who want cars now and won't wait.
> 
> Group Stock will probably be demos that need shifting within 3 months of registration...


Group stock as in new unregistered waiting for people to buy them


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## Derekh929 (Aug 28, 2011)

andy665 said:


> Group stock as in new unregistered waiting for people to buy them


That's correct even seen a few M5 just look at dealers websites direct and type imediate delivery reg dec 12 all new per reg to get bonuses:thumb:


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## MidlandsCarCare (Feb 18, 2006)

Has anyone compared a remapped Meg 265 to an M135i around a track? I'd be keen to see that. 

Why is the newer M135i so much more capable than the older model? The engine is the same? Surely an older 400bhp+ 135i would easily see off a standard new model? Has anyone compared 1M to M135i?


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

MidlandsCarCare said:


> Has anyone compared a remapped Meg 265 to an M135i around a track? I'd be keen to see that.
> 
> Why is the newer M135i so much more capable than the older model? The engine is the same? Surely an older 400bhp+ 135i would easily see off a standard new model? Has anyone compared 1M to M135i?


The record 'ring time for FWD is 8.08 for a Megane 265 trophy.

The M135i has done 8.05


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

The Focus RS is 8.26 for comparison.


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## Blackroc (Dec 10, 2012)

MidlandsCarCare said:


> Has anyone compared a remapped Meg 265 to an M135i around a track? I'd be keen to see that.
> 
> Why is the newer M135i so much more capable than the older model? The engine is the same? Surely an older 400bhp+ 135i would easily see off a standard new model? Has anyone compared 1M to M135i?


The M135i whilst having the N55 engine, has the upgraded Performance Power Pack as standard, (a £1000 option on later 135s - upgraded intercooler, remap and a few other bits) and then the final mapping fettled by the M team. Official figures are saying 320bhp - tuners are suggesting that in testing they are putting out nearer 340bhp as standard.

The M135 is also over 100kg lighter than a 1M as the M team put the M135 on a diet. As a result, it is as quick as the 1M and It has lapped Nuremberg the same as an M3

The M team worked on suspension, braking, steering, gearbox and damping, so basically all the important driver bits

It's far more stable than the older 135 at speed, has more grip, and is more direct too (this is from two enthusiasts running near 400bhp 135s who have driven them)


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## MidlandsCarCare (Feb 18, 2006)

Blackroc said:


> The M135i whilst having the N55 engine, has the upgraded Performance Power Pack as standard, (a £1000 option on later 135s - upgraded intercooler, remap and a few other bits) and then the final mapping fettled by the M team. Official figures are saying 320bhp - tuners are suggesting that in testing they are putting out nearer 340bhp as standard.
> 
> The M135 is also over 100kg lighter than a 1M as the M team put the M135 on a diet. As a result, it is as quick as the 1M and It has lapped Nuremberg the same as an M3
> 
> ...


Thank you. Definitely a performance bargain then with a remap on the N55 it'd be a monster. I really must test drive one. The older 135i is all over the place handling wise.


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## Blackroc (Dec 10, 2012)

MidlandsCarCare said:


> Thank you. Definitely a performance bargain then with a remap on the N55 it'd be a monster. I really must test drive one. The older 135i is all over the place handling wise.


Most enthusiasts who are serious about the older 135s and remapping them, are fitting LSDs and M3 suspension arms to aid stability and reduce roll ;-)


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## MidlandsCarCare (Feb 18, 2006)

Indeed - I'm on babybmw and been looking into 135i's for a while. 

The new ones will be a used performance bargain in a year or two.


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## Turkleton (Apr 18, 2010)

MidlandsCarCare said:


> Has anyone compared a remapped Meg 265 to an M135i around a track? I'd be keen to see that.
> 
> Why is the newer M135i so much more capable than the older model? The engine is the same? Surely an older 400bhp+ 135i would easily see off a standard new model? Has anyone compared 1M to M135i?


You've opened a can of worms there :lol:
No doubt an M135 owner will be in to say how superior their car is to _every_ other car in the world, even it's predecessor which imo is a lot better looking :devil:


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

MidlandsCarCare said:


> Indeed - I'm on babybmw and been looking into 135i's for a while.
> 
> The new ones will be a used performance bargain in a year or two.


I can see the M135i having a big effect on values of the 135i. No real point buying a 135i if there isn't enough of a gap in price.

Likewise will a few people opt for a M135i over paying more for a used 1M?


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## MidlandsCarCare (Feb 18, 2006)

I'm surprised to see older 135i's holding relatively high prices but I agree I think the bottom will fall out of their prices soon as M135i's dip below £25k. 

How long until we can get a DCT N55 135i for £18k would you say? I'd like a 1M but its impossible to predict how their prices will go over the next few years. The MGFV from BMW is £10,500 in 3 years time!


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## Blackroc (Dec 10, 2012)

Turkleton said:


> You've opened a can of worms there :lol:
> No doubt an M135 owner will be in to say how superior their car is to _every_ other car in the world, even it's predecessor which imo is a lot better looking :devil:


I guess the difference is noted because we are talking hardcore enthusiasts who track there cars and look for this sort of stuff.

I wouldn't notice anywhere near as much as they do, however, having come from a heavily remapped 123d (270bhp) and a standard 130i (260bhp) - I can assure you the M135 is in a totally different league altogether!

As for the 135 coupes looking better - maybe, I never said the M135 was a looker though ;-)


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

MidlandsCarCare said:


> I'm surprised to see older 135i's holding relatively high prices but I agree I think the bottom will fall out of their prices soon as M135i's dip below £25k.
> 
> How long until we can get a DCT N55 135i for £18k would you say? I'd like a 1M but its impossible to predict how their prices will go over the next few years. The MGFV from BMW is £10,500 in 3 years time!


There is already cars with DCT at low £20s. Natural depreciation would have them at that level not too far from now. The M135i will assist a lot.

No chance will they be 33% retained value after 3 years especially if 135i are holding 65% after 3 years.


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## MidlandsCarCare (Feb 18, 2006)

Indeed but look at approved BMW website and look at the finance calculator for a 1M.


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## Teddy (Dec 15, 2007)

Blackroc said:


> Aerodynamics force the rear of a car down giving RWD even better grip at high speeds. How many FWD formula 1 cars do you see?


Pretty much every car experiences lift at higher speeds.


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## SteveTDCi (Feb 8, 2006)

Kerr said:


> The record 'ring time for FWD is 8.08 for a Megane 265 trophy.
> 
> The M135i has done 8.05


So a superior rwd car with nearly 80 bhp is only 0.03 quicker than a fwd car ? I don't buy all ths rubbish rwd is better than fwd, it seems it's good for a hard launch (as the 3series in btcc proves) but that's about it, traction is nothing when the snow falls either:lol:

However if I could afford one then I would have the m135i, I think it possibly the best all rounder at the moment. That's based on paper though as I've never driven one.


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## Blackroc (Dec 10, 2012)

SteveTDCi said:


> So a superior rwd car with nearly 80 bhp is only 0.03 quicker than a fwd car ? I don't buy all ths rubbish rwd is better than fwd, it seems it's good for a hard launch (as the 3series in btcc proves) but that's about it, traction is nothing when the snow falls either:lol:
> 
> However if I could afford one then I would have the m135i, I think it possibly the best all rounder at the moment. That's based on paper though as I've never driven one.


The 265 Trophy is to all intense and purposes, a track day car. Track suspension, brakes, tyres, steering, and totally stripped. You can feel every bit of gravel through the suspension. A very impressive car in its own right.

On the other hand, the M135 is a family hatchback, designed for long distance cruising and the daily drive, with the ability to change driving focus to a track. Are you surprised now? ;-)


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## SteveTDCi (Feb 8, 2006)

http://www.evo.co.uk/carreviews/evocarreviews/273922/renaultsport_megane_265_trophy_review.html

Thats what i was thinking as the trophy ?


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

SteveTDCi said:


> So a superior rwd car with nearly 80 bhp is only 0.03 quicker than a fwd car ? I don't buy all ths rubbish rwd is better than fwd, it seems it's good for a hard launch (as the 3series in btcc proves) but that's about it, traction is nothing when the snow falls either:lol:
> 
> However if I could afford one then I would have the m135i, I think it possibly the best all rounder at the moment. That's based on paper though as I've never driven one.


The RS265 trophy has 50bhp less but is lighter and far more focused. Only 500 are being made and only 50 likely to come to the UK. The chances of seeing one is very slim whereas anyone can buy a M135i.

It has to have limited slip differentials etc to get all that power through the front wheels. The BMW doesn't and if it did it would be a lot faster.

The Megane is 18 secs faster than the 300bhp Focus RS that everyone seems to give god status to. No other FWD car comes anywhere near it.

The Renualt also costs the same as the BMW in trophy spec. Pound for pound the BMW is still faster and you get more of a car too. That is the appeal of the M135i, you are getting a lot of car for your money.

You are paying a lot for the performance of the Renault and comprising on quality compared to the BMW.

The Renault is as good as it gets FWD.

The BMW is nowhere near the best RWD car. Just huge value for money all things considered.

As for RWD and the BTCC. Remember that the BMW car is now about 7 years old and miles behind. They also have to use smaller amd thinner tyres to the current touring cars.

They are also full blown compromised race cars and not the same as you are going to get on the road. Super sticky slick tyres and differentials that will never see the road.

Many engineers have said for years the boundaries of FWD is being challenged. They can't cope well with much more power and years ago 200bhp was seen as the limit.

The cars have got fatter and heavier with LSDs allowing cars to head up a bit but the power to weight ratio hasn't massively increased.

Any decent RWD car can cope with 300bhp with ease.

RWD is vastly superior hence why most race cars and supercars are all RWD.

FWD stops at hot hatchback level.


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

Ask any of the powerful hot hatch drivers how long tyres last. 

My old phase 4 Astra GSi went through tyres like nothing on earth. 

The Focus RS drivers I know and internet reviews suggest that 4000-5000 miles is all you are likely to get as they are working so hard. 

Any 300bhp BMW will get 20, 000+ miles out the rears and more out the fronts with good rubber.


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## horico (Jul 17, 2010)

Kerr said:


> Any 300bhp BMW will get 20, 000+ miles out the rears and more out the fronts with good rubber.


My 343bhp BMW definately isn't as kind as this to the rear tyres :lol:


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

horico said:


> My 343bhp BMW definately isn't as kind as this to the rear tyres :lol:


Stop doing donuts in the Asda car park then. :lol:

I've actually done 25, 000 miles on the Bridgestone runflats on my 335i. They do need changing soon.

I admit it isn't that often these days I go for a proper blast.

On my 09 Citroen C5 2.0hdi I only got 15, 000 out of front tyres and 25, 000 out of rears.


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## horico (Jul 17, 2010)

Kerr said:


> Stop doing donuts in the Asda car park then. :lol:
> 
> I've actually done 25, 000 miles on the Bridgestone runflats on my 335i. They do need changing soon.
> 
> ...


I envy you getting that many miles out of some tyres....the rears on mine are about 1500 miles per mm or tread at the minute but I wouldn't have it any other way! 

As an aside - I really like the M135i and would seriously consider it being my next car, and my only new one...


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## Teddy (Dec 15, 2007)

How much does a M135i really cost? I don't mean list price either. With the necessary options fitted surely it will be a fair bit more than list price?

I'm also wondering how BMW make a 135i for similar money to what Vauxhall make an Astra VXR.


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## Blackroc (Dec 10, 2012)

Teddy said:


> How much does a M135i really cost? I don't mean list price either. With the necessary options fitted surely it will be a fair bit more than list price?
> 
> I'm also wondering how BMW make a 135i for similar money to what Vauxhall make an Astra VXR.


A standard M135, 3dr, in white is near as makes no difference £30k.

For that you get:

Manual
Leather (very good seats too)
Xenons
IDrive (not sat Nav)
Bluetooth
And from March DAB radio

Dealers will offer you between 3-5% discount (7-10% initially)


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## john90 (Nov 22, 2012)

Teddy said:


> I'm also wondering how BMW make a 135i for similar money to what Vauxhall make an Astra VXR.


The bmw price is where its always been for that equivalent model, its the Vauxhalls/VW/Renaultsport that have gone crazy money, it wasn't thay many years ago that the general hot hatch battle was around £16-18k, the new ST is where the astra and co should be priced, low 20's not mid to high.


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## keithjeb (Nov 25, 2012)

Isn't comparing Focus etc to a 135 a bit apples to oranges Considering they're 10 grand more and have 150% of the displacement?


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## SteveTDCi (Feb 8, 2006)

If you take the st3 compared to the m135i the lst prices are closer than you think. What you get off them is a different matter


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## robertdon777 (Nov 3, 2005)

I just think it's great that BMW released such a capable hot hatch for little money. It made the RS3 look like an overpriced marketing gimmick, stretching the RS brand too far.

As mentioned, the price of a decent spec focus and astra hot hatch has got far too close to £30k and now their fingers are being burnt by the m135i. 

Not matter how much you love your Ford's, VX,s and Renaults you'd be daft as a brush to buy one over the 135.


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## Derekh929 (Aug 28, 2011)

robertdon777 said:


> I just think it's great that BMW released such a capable hot hatch for little money. It made the RS3 look like an overpriced marketing gimmick, stretching the RS brand too far.
> 
> As mentioned, the price of a decent spec focus and astra hot hatch has got far too close to £30k and now their fingers are being burnt by the m135i.
> 
> Not matter how much you love your Ford's, VX,s and Renaults you'd be daft as a brush to buy one over the 135.


I think some wise words but have to say as massive Bmw man the Renault sports look great


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## nick3814 (Dec 31, 2010)

Derekh929 said:


> I think some wise words but have to say as massive Bmw man the Renault sports look great


Ha! Good man Derek. I love BMWs but as a rule not the folk who drive them! (Only joking) but the 1 series is a pig of a looking car, I don't care what it's got, it could be 400bhp for 20k it still wouldn't grace my garage!


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

nick3814 said:


> Ha! Good man Derek. I love BMWs but as a rule not the folk who drive them! (Only joking) but the 1 series is a pig of a looking car, I don't care what it's got, it could be 400bhp for 20k it still wouldn't grace my garage!


To be honest none of them are good looking cars. You don't look at any of them and think that looks good.

The by far best looking hot hatch is the Astra VXR but it seems to be lacking a bit in outright pace.


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## robertdon777 (Nov 3, 2005)

nick3814 said:


> Ha! Good man Derek. I love BMWs but as a rule not the folk who drive them! (Only joking) but the 1 series is a pig of a looking car, I don't care what it's got, it could be 400bhp for 20k it still wouldn't grace my garage!


Yeah, that's the only thing - it's just plain wrong at the front, but I could live with it.

The actual m-sport versions look ok but the standard 1er is shocking. What is going on with the offset on the wheels, many look like they have spacers on and the tyres look like they are almost protruding from the arch. I've seen this on many 118d's in stardard spec.


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