# how to burnish?



## phil r (Dec 5, 2007)

i would like to burnish my dark green met paintwork with my pc, i have tried to find a description of how to, but not found one yet. can someone point me in the right direction please, i plan to use menz 85 rd ff, suggestions for a pad would be helpful to.
cheers chaps


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## Dodo Factory (Apr 11, 2007)

I would use something with NO cut (a glaze). We have Lime Prime Lite for this purpose. You will get a little cut from even a very soft foam finishing pad so I really think any kind of abrasives in a compound is a bad idea.

So use the softest foam finishing pad you can find (the recessed ultra soft finishing ones in Ben's www.carnaubawaxshop.co.uk are very good, for example) and a glaze.


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## Dave KG (Feb 23, 2006)

I personally disagree with using a product with no cut for burnishing, espeicially on harder paints which will respond far less (or indeed, not really respond at all) to the cut from the softest of finishing pads... 

But then burnishing to me may be meaning a slightly different thing, perhaps... to me, when I am "burnishing" a finish, it is me aiming for the deepest gloss, and the greatest clarity by refining the surface of the paiunt to "smoothest" finish... to do this, I require a product with a very fine cut which will ten break down to producing ultafine abrasives which will give me the desired result of a beautifully refined finish... Indeed, 85RD is one of the best products on the market for this purpose and I would sooner reach for this to gain the best from the clarity of a paint finish than a glaze with no cut as i my experience over a wide range of paints, the 85RD (or lightly abrasive finishing polish) is the product to reach for for getting the best in clarity which ultimately gives the best overall finish.

Burnishing, or jewelling may mean different things to different detailers however so this is something to be aware of, and I have seen non cutting products used by machine for the "jewelling" proces - I admit I am pretty unconvinved by it as a method personally, when lined up against a fine cutting polish like Menzerna 85RD Final Finish, but then this is just my personal preference and other will feel differently about it.

To me though, if you are looking to burnish the paint finish you are looking to choose the finest finishing polish (abrasive) that you have - and you have done that with Final Finish... use this on a DA machine that you have as you would to work a polish typically: 1' sqaure area, spread at low speed, work at high speed until the reisude goes clear (can take up to five minutes by DA, hte longer you work the product the finer the abrasives become and the finer the finish although differences will be more noticeable on softer paints).


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## Dodo Factory (Apr 11, 2007)

You're right that it does depend on the paint hardness, Dave, and you have a lot more experience than me when it comes to machining. I think I recall chatting to Todd Helme from the US about 'jewelling' (as he calls it) for a very long time (as in jewelling for a long time, not chatting) using a non-cut glaze for the ultimate result. That said, we are talking rotaries here, not PCs.

Abrasion will always be a combination of pad and compound, and I think Todd's idea was to polish for as long as possible whilst removing as little clearcoat as possible. I am assuming the paint is finished down nicely first of all, and 85RD is obviously great for that, with a finishing pad. But to me (and probably just to me!) burnishing or jewelling would be that extra stage of polishing to the finest and highest degree, and so an even softer finishing pad and non-cut glaze would perhaps be the answer. For tougher paint, you would probably use a normal finishing pad and the finest of compounds if the action of the pad was not enough.

Apologies to Todd, of course, if I have misunderstood.


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## tdm (Feb 2, 2007)

i have even heard of water being used as the final step , combined with a very soft pad..on a soft paint i could see this working.


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## Dave KG (Feb 23, 2006)

Dodo Factory said:


> You're right that it does depend on the paint hardness, Dave, and you have a lot more experience than me when it comes to machining. I think I recall chatting to Todd Helme from the US about 'jewelling' (as he calls it) for a very long time (as in jewelling for a long time, not chatting) using a non-cut glaze for the ultimate result. That said, we are talking rotaries here, not PCs.
> 
> Abrasion will always be a combination of pad and compound, and I think Todd's idea was to polish for as long as possible whilst removing as little clearcoat as possible. I am assuming the paint is finished down nicely first of all, and 85RD is obviously great for that, with a finishing pad. But to me (and probably just to me!) burnishing or jewelling would be that extra stage of polishing to the finest and highest degree, and so an even softer finishing pad and non-cut glaze would perhaps be the answer. For tougher paint, you would probably use a normal finishing pad and the finest of compounds if the action of the pad was not enough.
> 
> Apologies to Todd, of course, if I have misunderstood.


The problem I have with this technique is that to me, the paint has reached its perfect stage after the 85RD and despite very thorough testing, I cannot see any further improvement on the finishes I achieve by rotary using 85RD - especially after an IPA wipedown which removes any oils which can be tricking the eye into seeing an improvement to the paint which isn't really there in the clarity... fine for glazing as this is the aim, but for the ultimate in clarity, even oils can act to mask and I avoid there use.

So having finished down perfectly with a finishing pad and one of the world's finest finishing polishes (IMHO), the paintwork is perfect - its the best it will look in terms of clarity because I have used I product dedicated to this process and designed for the purpose of finishing paintwork... A non-abrasive polish, while it may be able to generate a little bit of cut from the pad, is not going to go through the stages of the breaking down of the polish and instead you will get a constant cut from the pad... the level of this cut will naturally depend on paint, but having got the paint perfect, this further process you are describing doesn't seem to me to get any improvement in the finish and in cases can be to the detriment of it in terms of ultimate clarity... perhaps this is down to the way I work light abrasive finishing polishes and naturally my techniques are honed with hte products and techniques which I believe in, but to me, if you want to burnish then it should be done with a product that itself has the ability to cut very slightly into the paint.

Also, perhaps many of us who finish using abrasive products work them differently to get the ultimate in finish from them while others stop shy of the ultimate from a finishing polish and rely on a further stage to achieve the same result... different techniques and methods, with different products and both probably equally as valid...


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## Dodo Factory (Apr 11, 2007)

I was under the assumption that as well as the very fine cut offered by the pad (jewelling basically being no cut at all as a technique) using a glaze would add oils to the paint and enhance the shine even further, as they are worked into it. I know what you mean about filling, as filling's cheating in my book (  ), but there's no denying a glaze can add to the looks before an LSP. Maybe this is in truth a machine glaze stage, rather than true jewelling, although any foam pad on a rotary is going to have some jewelling action - the sheer rotation of the face is going to polish to a certain extent, although it will be more noticeable with softer clearcoat.

But as you say, different techniques for different people - and a very good question raised by the OP as I have not seen a lot of discussion about it before. Often when I post, it is just to get more sensible or informative posts to come in


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## caledonia (Sep 13, 2008)

tdm said:


> i have even heard of water being used as the final step , combined with a very soft pad..on a soft paint i could see this working.


I cant honestly say I have heared of it as a Final step. But I have managed to find a interesting post. Where water was used it the polishing process after wet sanding. But it still had to be finished down, For the prefect finish.

http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=48436&highlight=wet+sanding

Gordon.:thumb:


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## VixMix (May 8, 2008)

Why not? You would use water and soft cloth to boole that mirror like shine on your parade boots


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## caledonia (Sep 13, 2008)

VixMix said:


> Why not? You would use water and soft cloth to boole that mirror like shine on your parade boots


:lol:
Been there so many time in the past. I care not or do not wish to remember those days. :lol:

But they where good times also. :thumb:

Gordon.


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## Dream Machines (Mar 13, 2006)

Jewelling to me is this
Using 106ff once for up to 7 mins from 600 rpm (spreading) to 1500 to 1800) and then back down all the way to 600 again
the 85RD once or twice in the same way as 106FF

Burnishing - to me this is abrasive deep cleaning using a Meg's G220 or other orbital with light cut to finishing polishes for a (top secret) amount of time per section to glassify the clear coat, bring the metal flake back up and pop and bring all the fresh off the gun colour back to the surface. 

Prima Swirl with white or black pad speed is one of my combo's

Whilst I agree with Dave about 85RD being the pinnacle of a car's finish on light coloured cars, on dark coloured cars, there are still more steps that can be done, which I often do

Red /orange paints - 85RD x 2 then Prima Amigo at speed 4 with some pressure and the G220
This darkens the colour shade of the paint from a light or dark red to a rich blood red or marone and orange to a light/medium red 

Then Driven to perfection Marine sealant glaze on top of the Amigo to make the paint incredibly slick and even wetter, clearer and darker and much deeper

Toughseal step 1 and 2 via orbital at speed 3 to 4 for 10 mins
This is an extremely glossy system and one that is extremely strong 

GLARE - Glare Micro Finish & Glare Advanced via orbital
This system has alot of doubters and haters but the aussie glare products (much stronger and suited to dry, hot, humid conditions) give dark cars such an amazing finish that many of peope who have seen my car say this - it looks like the body was painted with glass

The added bonus of glare is that unlike abrasive polishes, they moisturise the paint which makes them my favourite for pre correction preparation as a surface that is dry and porous or has sticky clearcoat, will become as supple as moisturising cream once applied and the rotary work will be much easier and less polish will be used

Blackfire Gloss enhancing polish & wet diamond
again when applied by orbital or rotary, the GEP gives an incredibly wet, salad oil like look to dark colours and the wet diamond seals that in for six months or more


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## phil r (Dec 5, 2007)

my greatfull thanks to all replies,
the dark green met paintwork in question is on my 1990 bentley, with my very limited knowledge i don't know if that is soft or hard paint? i do know two panels have been refinished a few years ago,after burnishing my intention is to seal the paint with zaino and would like to try a glaze before the zaino, but unsure if a glaze is avaliable that it would bond to, possibly poorboys black hole? but would prefer to avoid fillers.
my thanks to all.


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