# Am I being thick?!



## atbalfour (Aug 11, 2019)

*Side panels and rear bumper not beading.....?!*

Hi everyone,

I have a ceramic coating and have recently done a full decontamination (apc, citrus, iron and tar) before topping up with a sacrifical layer.

The immediate results are amazing, the topper (KK Overcoat) is the most intense bead-er I've used... but I have noticed after a few hundred miles and a wash the bottom half of the car is sheeting water rather than beading when hosing off.

I thought it might be road grime (though I wouldn't expect it so soon), so gave it another going over with citrus foam which has made next to no difference. All other surfaces on the car are performing as they did on day 1.

Am I doing something fundamentally wrong or is this normal?!


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## Dubsounds (Jun 12, 2008)

You did not mention any claybar neither any panel prep... So maybe the coating didn't bond properly?


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## atbalfour (Aug 11, 2019)

Apologies should have explained, the coating was applied professionally. I decontaminated before applying a topper - but yes I didn't clay bar or PW but wouldn't expect to need to do this?


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## MagpieRH (May 27, 2014)

How long ago was the ceramic coating done? If a while ago, it might just be that those areas are spent because they're hardest hit.

I doubt a clay would hurt - given you've done everything else is worth a shot.


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## washingitagain (Sep 11, 2018)

I find that behaviour with most non-ceramic products I apply (waxes, detail sprays etc.) - i.e. the bottom half of the car is the first to show signs of the product wearing off.


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## Gheezer (Aug 6, 2013)

Sacrificial layers have much shorter performance over coatings than if bonded to paint. I see the same and use detailer sprays as drying aids to boost the gloss and short term protection and leave expensive waxes alone.


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## Alan W (May 11, 2006)

Are you sure the water is not beading on the vertical panels because it is immediately running off? Water can only bead if it can sit on the panel, otherwise it will run straight off. KK Overcoat is very hydrophobic and will resist water holding onto the panel in my opinion and hence why it is running off and not beading.

As Overcoat is so easy to use why not just apply some more to the bottom half of the car the next time you wash and dry it?

As an aside I wouldn’t clay the panels because you may induce some fine marring to the coating.

Hope this helps,

Alan W


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## Dubsounds (Jun 12, 2008)

I've mentioned claybar and panel wipe, because I thought that you were applying a coating... Then topping it... 

So in this case I wouldn't clay neither panel wipe... 

Just a quick tip... Get a fine mist sprayer and spray some water on those panels to check if it is beading.


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## atbalfour (Aug 11, 2019)

Thanks everyone for the replies. Water is not being repelled on the lower half of each side, in the way that it is on every other surface on the car. It's very strange and topping it with overcoat does temporarily fix it. I'll try to take a video this weekend. Overcoat is doing a brilliant job on the rest of the car and my wife's car as a standalone product hence why I'm so confused by what's happening.


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## bigkahunaburger (Jun 27, 2012)

I would give the lower panels a good wash with a strong shampoo solution, or a coating cleaning one, such as Carpro Reset. Perhaps check with the detailer first though? Unless anyone knows.

I believe it was a user called Raven (?) who was our Kamikaze guru but have not seen any posts from them in some time, unfortunately 

I had Enrei done in May myself on my new car. I was told to use Overcoat every 3-4 washes. The trouble is, I only get to wash my car every 6-8 weeks. I really need to use the Overcoat now myself.

I am also interested in knowing if Carpro Reset or similar can be used with Kamikaze stuff. Theoretically, ye, it could, but obviously neither one of us wants to compromise our coatings to find out!
I suspect that I once killed my Gtechniq Exo by using Carpro Reset on it, so I'm obviously weary. It is an amazing shampoo though.


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## Cyclonetog (Jul 22, 2018)

Alan W said:


> Are you sure the water is not beading on the vertical panels because it is immediately running off? Water can only bead if it can sit on the panel, otherwise it will run straight off.


This is deffo the case with my car. To all intents and purposes it really looks like the LSP has given up but it really hasn't.
It's also the area that most of the dirt sticks to so really mind bending.


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## atbalfour (Aug 11, 2019)

Wife's car received a couple of layers of Cancoat nearly a fortnight ago. First wash and similar to my S3, ridiculous water behaviour everywhere EXCEPT the lower sides and back bumper.

So puzzling, as these are the parts of the car that get the grubbiest and would be most likely exposed to road grime. However, on my own car I've tried neat APC, Iron & Fallout remover, Tar & Glue remover, used a range of shampoos, GWash, AutoWash, Reset and SuperSuds with little to no difference. The fact I'm seeing the same on my wife's Merc (freshly polished, prepped and with a different brand of product) is mind bending!!! 

The water sprayer trick did make the lower panels bead, unsure if that is because of how fine the mist was.

(Ps. I have beading OCD, it's official.)


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## suds (Apr 27, 2012)

For a satisfactory answer I think you will need to post pics or video


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## grunty-motor (Aug 11, 2016)

could it be the lower panels are "over vertical" and the upper ones are "less than vertical" so the water beading changes to sheeting.

if it isnt that, can only be a failure to bond properly despite the throurhough pre-clean


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## atbalfour (Aug 11, 2019)

This was earlier today...

Car has a base of (professionally applied) CSL & Exo in August 2019. It is regularly maintained with Polish Angel Cosmic Spritz.

Could BH Autofoam or CarPro reset be stripping the Cosmic Spritz? Even if it is, I surprised not to get some beading from Exo and failing that, the underlying sheeting from CSL.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/ZwSuz3Xmp7vWwiR68


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## Alan W (May 11, 2006)

Now that is very strange and I’m struggling to think of a good reason for it. 

I can’t see BH Autofoam or CarPro Reset stripping the protection on the lower panels and not higher up as well – are both sides, lower front and back the same?

The normal recommendation would be to try something like Gtechniq W5 or CarPro IronX on the affected areas to cleanse them and see if some beading returns but you’ve already done that so I’m stumped! :wall:

Have you driven over some sort sort of road spill or maybe diesel?

Sorry for rambling on but I’ve just been thinking out loud, as it were, in the hope that I could find a resolve, without success. 

At least this post will bump your Thread back to the top of the pile in the hope that someone else can offer a solution. 

Alan W


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## atbalfour (Aug 11, 2019)

Ha cheers Alan. I just can't figure it out.

Both sides are exactly the same, as is the back (all of the high traffic areas).

It does look like product is wearing off much quicker on those areas but no matter the product I use I am getting similar results. I have even used Gyeon Prep to prime the surface before applying protection to no avail.


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## Alan W (May 11, 2006)

atbalfour said:


> Ha cheers Alan. I just can't figure it out.
> 
> Both sides are exactly the same, as is the back (all of the high traffic areas).
> 
> It does look like product is wearing off much quicker on those areas but no matter the product I use I am getting similar results.


If it doesn't make a difference what product (topper) you apply then the common denominator between all of them has got to be the base layer which is not allowing the product (any of them) to adhere sufficiently to the paint.

You could try polishing the bottom of one door back to virgin paint, panel wipe and then try one of your LSP's again and see if it lasts any longer indicating what I've suggested above is correct.

Perhaps also discuss with the Professional that applied the coating and see if you have any redress with them or if they can offer a suggestion as to a possible cause.

Alan W


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## atbalfour (Aug 11, 2019)

Yeah good plan... off next week, will hopefully get a dry day!


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## Alan W (May 11, 2006)

atbalfour said:


> Yeah good plan... off next week, will hopefully get a dry day!


Here's hoping you get a dry day next week and can get to the bottom of this. 

Keep this updated and let us know how you get on. :thumb:

Alan W


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## minotaur uk (Dec 13, 2018)

i have found the same situation with my coating, the bottom hlaf of my doors and my boot are always the first to deteriorate. Someone said recently that the coating my get clogged and sometimes cleaning with something Koch chemie FSE can help. I do get a lot of water spots on mine and have used FSE to remove them. This has help but after a few weeks driving I am back to the bottom half of the doors failing or looking as they have.

I have just watched your video and my doors are exactly the same...I have a SKoda Kodiaq. Maybe a VAG problem as I think they use the same doors on quite a few of the group cars. Cleaning with a TFR and carpro reset does help.....but if you feel the paint mine is contaminated which will add to the problem. My bonnet does not show any problems, when cleaned with a TFR and reset the water beading is back.


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## budgetplan1 (Aug 10, 2016)

Your video looks pretty much like what I see on our daily drivers at the end of winter. So much goo on high-impact areas that it takes a good, deep cleaning come springtime to get back to 'normal'.

Even if I foam the heck out of 'em at a high concentration, then wash with a reportedly strong soap like Reset, it doesnt really take care of it and any toppers applied fade quite quickly as well.

Come Spring, our daily winter driver get:

1. Pressure rinse
2. Foam at a very high concentration, like 1:2
2. Pressure Rinse
3. Bucket Wash with Reset
4. Pressure Rinse
5. Hose down car with Gyeon Iron, agitate with Gyeon Silk Mitt
6. Pressure Rinse
7. Hose down car with Gyeon Tar, agitate w Gyeon Silk Mitt
8. Pressure Rinse
9. Final wash with Reset 

Sounds like a lot and chemically it is, but time wise 2hrs tops. After that, back to 'normal' as far as performance/maintenance goes...until the next winter.

This is the 'worst case' scenario but necessary for my daily driver which sees about 15k miles of 95% freeway usage in winter. Rock salt, brine, chemical de-icers...all of what they use here is rather tenacious but such is life in a Winter climate. If all the above doesn't work, I consider the coating 'dead'...it may still be on the paint in a protective sense but the visual entertainment & hydrophobic self cleaning properties are gone so it's dead to me.

I also pretty much ignore my car as far as cleanliness goes in the Winter because I've realized that this process is necessary and so is pointless to go thru all of that when it'll just be jacked up again the next month.

My wife only drives her car about 2500 local miles in Winter, got hers back to normal last year w just foam, wash, hose down with Polish Angel UltraRed, agitate, wash and good to go.

As an aside, while CSL has proved quite durable as a base, EXO is relatively weak IMO and it doesn't take much to diminish it. If I'm using CSL I'll top it with Gyeon CanCoat and get better overall performance. And its much easier to refresh with CanCoat than it is EXO.

YMMV


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## atbalfour (Aug 11, 2019)

budgetplan1 said:


> Your video looks pretty much like what I see on our daily drivers at the end of winter. So much goo on high-impact areas that it takes a good, deep cleaning come springtime to get back to 'normal'.
> 
> Even if I foam the heck out of 'em at a high concentration, then wash with a reportedly strong soap like Reset, it doesnt really take care of it and any toppers applied fade quite quickly as well.
> 
> ...


Thanks I'll give this ago.. think i've done each step but probably not in tandem. In the meantime I've been running a BSD test to see if it fares any better.

I've never had BSD on my own car (applying a £6 product to a £100 coating has never felt right) but lost hope at the weekend and as the strongest 'beader' I had to hand, applied it to the lower panels and boot to prove that they can bead and that it wasn't an issue with the PA or Kamikaze toppers and compatibility with my coating. Sprayed immediately and can confirm the panels bead amazingly well - proves there is not an issue with the angle of the panel or the pressure of the water (as someone suggested previously).


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## atbalfour (Aug 11, 2019)

OK, the problems continue... In my last post I mentioned I had applied BSD (which was repelling really well after application) and even it has failed to hold on to the lower panels for a week.

Given that the car is coated I am so reluctant to get the DA out. I've tried the budgetplan1 chemical armageddon today, didn't seem that there was anything there to revive... panel is sheeting albeit slowly.


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## atbalfour (Aug 11, 2019)

Guys, reopening this old debate..

Now that we are approaching winter and traffic film season in the UK, does anyone else notice that their (well protected) lower side panels and rear panels sheet after a couple of weeks driving in rain, where the upper panels, bonnet and roof are beading like new?

So far this month to date I've been lucky and while the pre-rinse nor snow foam stages don't return any beading to the lower panels the contact wash with CarPro Reset does - that said, I've been keeping on top of the cars, they're both better protected than ever and with Covid I've been able to be selective of when I need to drive so have avoided the worst weather here to date.

But with the snow and salt season coming, where inevitably the motivation fades and the cars get left a little longer between washes I fully expect the traffic film struggle to pick up right where it left off.

Anyone else experience similar?
Any good tips to removing traffic film without obliterating your LSP?
Is traffic film even the cause of this lower-panel degradation?!

Back in February when I first posted this thread I was throwing BSD (because it was cheap and hydrophobic for test purposes) at the 'clogged/failing' panels and finding it would be gone by the following week. What I didn't work out and would like to get to the bottom of through taking a more methodical approach to the problem this year is 

1) is it the pre-wash that's killing the BSD / protection - planning to try a range of lower pH pre-washes
2) is the BSD just struggling to bond because the lower sections are plastered in traffic film - are there effective prewashes/TFRs without compromising the test of part A?!
3) or, does BSD just not bond to ceramic coatings at all, or just those that are past the point of repair (which I suspect mine was!). Loach (aka WaxMode) found the same on a video he posted about Meguiars Ceramic Detailer last year.. 

For me anyway it's a subject that I'd love to get to the bottom of this winter!


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## roscopervis (Aug 22, 2006)

This issue is very interesting. With my diagnosis of ADHD a couple of months prior to this thread, my starting of meds for it, the experiencing issues with a massive loss of hydrophobicity on my recently coated car and the increase in hyperfocus (ADHD benefit) and trouble getting to sleep (ADHD meds drawback), it kicked off something in me.

This thread, budgetplan1's excellent coating blog and Labocosmetica's videos on their 3 pH wash system, I got quite (OK very) into this type of issue. Added to that over the winter I barely touched my coated car so was pretty dirty. This was a mixture of things - flat out depression, lack of weather, and the idea that I'd rather leave it dirty than do a half baked job. When I started perking up, and was seriously thinking about all this stuff, Lockdown happened and that was quite a busy time for me.

In my case, the issue of the hydrophobicity loss was due to tree leaves and gunk falling from a nearby tree. It is doing it again this year. 

Initially I thought my wonder method would work for every situation, but from Sheep's testing, somethings just die and get killed off by the strangest things. I found that when a lightning storm and accompanying heavy rain and wind obliterated everything on my roof in my Fse test, even products that up to that point were doing great.

The ongoing studies into Autofoam/alkaline products, dilutions and surfactant residue is also pretty interesting, I just wish I had more time and a suitable space to do more testing.

My question now is - what is your current protection situation? What is on these lower panels, when was it applied and how is it performing?

I have a new car now and will want to look after the paint and its condition much better than the last car as it is in very good nick. I'm tempted to try a patch of KKD R-evolve on an inconspicuous location to see how it is on actual paint.


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## atbalfour (Aug 11, 2019)

I figured i'd be in a minority with the post - I have a bit of a fixation with solving problems, particularly if it's one that's challenging, of my own making or in relation to something I'm interested in. Tick, tick and tick.

In terms of LSPs... a bit of a stack.. My car had Gtechniq Ultra with 2 coats of Exo V4 applied in June (under warranty) and still unimpressed with water behaviour I couldn't help but apply two coats of Cancoat over the top of it after 1 month and the car barely moving since. That's been working really nicely until I got a couple of new spray toppers to try - first Titan Ultra which looked great (but since given away) and a month later topped with SC Mist which is impressive. I never intended to top Cancoat but just had new things to try.. the side panels are repelling water very very well..

This was on an unwashed car pre-washing this day month ago: https://photos.app.goo.gl/JSusELmAFvLnVJWAA

My wife's car is a bit simpler - CarPro Essence topped with two layers of TAC Systems Moonlight on 25th July then only topped with Cosmic Spritz once. I can see the side panels slowing down a fraction (going from super hydrophobic to very hydrophobic) after quite a bit of wet weather driving and a few weeks between a wash - car probably just needs a decon as it hasn't required one to date.

I've generally been staying away from LSP harsh foams like 8Below, Spritzer and Auto Foam... the challenge will be removing traffic film while using the less potent pre-washes..

Interestingly I have been using nothing but Garage Therapy One Wheel Shampoo on my Revolve X coated alloys and they're still beading like crazy after each wash.


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## roscopervis (Aug 22, 2006)

I tend to be the same with problems, but I'm not so hydrophobically driven as you. That's how the tree sap issue started leading to the Fse fandom which isn't letting up. My issues have been the flat surfaces due to the leaves and gunk, the side panels are doing great.

If you're not going for a contactless wash, then removing the traffic film entirely before the mitt wash isn't a necessity and will be dealt with adequately and safely by the time you've finished with the mitt, especially as it's usually confined to the problem areas.

This is the video that got me thinking.


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## grunty-motor (Aug 11, 2016)

roscopervis said:


> This is the video that got me thinking.


That's a great video - shows how much i still have to learn about this cleaning mallarky!


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## noorth (Jul 10, 2019)

atbalfour said:


> Wife's car received a couple of layers of Cancoat nearly a fortnight ago. First wash and similar to my S3, ridiculous water behaviour everywhere EXCEPT the lower sides and back bumper.
> 
> So puzzling, as these are the parts of the car that get the grubbiest and would be most likely exposed to road grime. However, on my own car I've tried neat APC, Iron & Fallout remover, Tar & Glue remover, used a range of shampoos, GWash, AutoWash, Reset and SuperSuds with little to no difference. The fact I'm seeing the same on my wife's Merc (freshly polished, prepped and with a different brand of product) is mind bending!!!
> 
> ...


lol i have some beading OCD has well. I find the rear bumper and some of the lower panels need much more maintance has well, if you really want to see beads. Sometimes a quick wash works. Nothing that hasn't been already said. 

Not sure about cancoat but i know a professional who has used moonlight has a drying aid! Why not i figure considering how big the bottle is..


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## Kris1986 (May 19, 2008)

Hi,

I had the same "problem" with my Octavia that I applied two layers of Britemax Igneous in early May. The car goes on the motorway every day and it has been parked outside since the coating application. At the final rinsing stage at the last wash, it was rather "dead" on the lower section of the side panels. Today, I gave it a proper spray down with a somewhat milder equivalent of Koch Chemie Teerwäsche. The surfaces went from grabby to smooooth and the water behavior came back  (the videos in the bottom is straight after wash with Geyon Bath)

I will do the same for our Kia e-Soul as well that had three layers of Gyeon CanCoat for some weeks ago. The water is completely flat of the lower sections and very grabby.











Cheers!


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## atbalfour (Aug 11, 2019)

noorth said:


> lol i have some beading OCD has well. I find the rear bumper and some of the lower panels need much more maintance has well, if you really want to see beads. Sometimes a quick wash works. Nothing that hasn't been already said.
> 
> Not sure about cancoat but i know a professional who has used moonlight has a drying aid! Why not i figure considering how big the bottle is..


I saw WaxMode's detailing channel did a test with Cancoat as a drying aid with reasonable results actually. Not something I would fancy trying being honest! It's as quick to apply dry. What a product though...



roscopervis said:


> I tend to be the same with problems, but I'm not so hydrophobically driven as you. That's how the tree sap issue started leading to the Fse fandom which isn't letting up. My issues have been the flat surfaces due to the leaves and gunk, the side panels are doing great.
> 
> If you're not going for a contactless wash, then removing the traffic film entirely before the mitt wash isn't a necessity and will be dealt with adequately and safely by the time you've finished with the mitt, especially as it's usually confined to the problem areas.
> 
> This is the video that got me thinking.


So I would have expected that the contact wash would remove all traffic film and road grime but honestly at this point I'm not entirely sure. I (like Kris below) was using Bathe as a shampoo (it's a coating shampoo so definitely potent enough!) and the dull hydrophobics were only somewhat revived until I got WP 8 Below involved, rinsed and contact washed for a second time. This is what has got me into the way of thinking that you actually do need a pretty decent pre-wash to tackle the effects that film can have. Labo's 3pH system is interesting.. I was kindly sent some samples of the Purifica, Primus, Semper (as well as their pH neutral foam Neve) and am still in the process of evaluating them. I am holding off until the car next becomes 'clogged' and will report back.. haven't been doing the bad weather miles that being in the office forces me to do normally.



Kris1986 said:


> Hi,
> 
> I had the same "problem" with my Octavia that I applied two layers of Britemax Igneous in early May. The car goes on the motorway every day and it has been parked outside since the coating application. At the final rinsing stage at the last wash, it was rather "dead" on the lower section of the side panels. Today, I gave it a proper spray down with a somewhat milder equivalent of Koch Chemie Teerwäsche. The surfaces went from grabby to smooooth and the water behavior came back  (the videos in the bottom is straight after wash with Geyon Bath)
> 
> ...


Thanks Kris interesting to hear others have seen this and there are others equally driven by good, consistent, water behaviour and self cleaning!! Of all the areas I want my LSP to be strong it is on those side and rear panels.

Interesting that a Tar and Glue remover did the trick... I am always wary of dousing the panels in it and tend to go after more localised spots where I see them but must try that as well. Assume you sprayed on and didn't agitate? Let us know how you get on with reviving Cancoat.


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## Kris1986 (May 19, 2008)

@atbalfour - the degreaser I used is not entirely a tar and glue remover, but rather a milder solvent based degreaser. It is much, much milder than e.g Tardis. Yes, I will do a similar update for the CanCoat'ed car  

I feel that a mild petrochemical degreaser is much more efficient than AutoFoam for "grabby" paintwork (tar spots, salts and similar), but less effective for traffic film removal.


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## Kris1986 (May 19, 2008)

atbalfour said:


> ...
> 
> Interesting that a Tar and Glue remover did the trick... I am always wary of dousing the panels in it and tend to go after more localised spots where I see them but must try that as well. Assume you sprayed on and didn't agitate? Let us know how you get on with reviving Cancoat.


As on the Britemax coated car, I soaked the car with same degreaser, then let it agitate for a few minutes. After that I snow foamed the car with pH neutral foam (ValetPRO Foamula 1) - this had an positive effect for the water behaviour for sure.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/jr7ig1X1NxiMfwSM6

Hopefully more repellant after hand wash :detailer:


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## Sheep (Mar 20, 2009)

I had a similar issue with my C5 coated wheels. The paint on barrels is not properly finished like the face, meaning it's rougher to the touch and therefore it grabs more dirt. I go over how I cleaned up the wheels before topping the coating in this thread. At first it looks like the water behavior is gone, but it's just burred under a thick layer of schmoo. I would use a mild-ish form of APC to deep clean the sides of the car and see if that works. I would also use a fairly strong form of contact for the wash, as these areas can really be stubborn and soft brushes and mitts just don't scrub enough to clean them off.

https://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=419329


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## bluechimp (Dec 21, 2017)

Really intriguing that this is happening on a coated car! I would not expect that at all.

I see exactly what your video showed on my motorway muncher, but that was only coated in Detailed Onlines Ceramic Wax and topped with either Carbon Collective QD so when I saw the sheeting on the door the same as yours, i put it down to a product that couldn’t put up with the harshness of motorways.

My JCW on the other hand has Polar Seal and BSD and beads like the day it was put on. So i’ve always accepted that the motorway muncher is in harsher conditions and that it needs more maintenance.

What is shocking me though is that the same would happen with a ceramic, which I wanted to get done to remove this issue...hmmm.


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## noorth (Jul 10, 2019)

bluechimp said:


> Really intriguing that this is happening on a coated car! I would not expect that at all.
> 
> I see exactly what your video showed on my motorway muncher, but that was only coated in Detailed Onlines Ceramic Wax and topped with either Carbon Collective QD so when I saw the sheeting on the door the same as yours, i put it down to a product that couldn't put up with the harshness of motorways.
> 
> ...


No expert but been reading about coatings well over a year. They still seem to need regular top ups in harsh conditions. I will be using carpro uk next year and it will be topped with moonlight or cancoat within 6 mths before the winter starts.


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## atbalfour (Aug 11, 2019)

Interesting product and concept!! It's one thing restoring hydrophobicity on dirty cars (like the mini in the video), but restoring it on a car that is visually clean would be the real test.

Limescale removers seem to be the latest in freeing up coated cars, pretty cool that this has mild ferrous metal removers built in too!


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## atbalfour (Aug 11, 2019)

Hey folks.. this is a subject that has continued to interest me and I'm glad to say that I've got to the bottom of the issue (or issues);

I'm posting a summary so that hopefully it will help someone else with a ceramic coating from making the same initial mistakes and the wild goose chase that ensues. Ironically the stakes aren't quite as high when you've a short term protection applied, as you can clay and polish your paint at the expense of only time and clearcoat!

*Likely cause.. a virtuous cycle of mistakes!*

1) Regular use of chemical resistant LSPs on paint that wasn't de-contaminated:

Contrary to popular belief a regular maintenance wash does not remove all contamination from the surface, and the car is still 'dirty', the extent depends on your environment, how much you've driven between washes etc. Contamination includes things like iron, limescale and road film. Applying LSPs on top of a 'clean but still dirty' (contaminated) car will not only stop those LSPs from reaching their peak performance, but they'll make contamination that builds between washes more difficult to remove. Less of an issue when using QDs, which tend to wash off next wash. I'm talking here about products that offer mid-term protection and with decent chemical resistance like Gyeon Cure is.. it would take even a really good fallout remover (like Korrosol which is pH neutral) many many hits to break down one layer of Cure. If you're layering Cure each wash, all you're doing is creating a barrier to removing the contamination sandwiched between.

In my driving conditions, it's the lower half of the side panels and the rear that really get peppered with road film (hence my complaints about the lowers being impacted so badly!). For others it may be flat surfaces being covered in iron fallout, limescale from improper/sunlight washing or general baked on dust spots, contamination from trees etc.

2) Toppers can take over the performance of your coating (that can be good, or bad):

There is a lot of debate about whether you need toppers at all.. I have tested tens of them and there are a lot of good ones. Fundamentally they're fun to use, but on highly polished and freshly coated paint they're going to offer you very little extra. They come into their own and are essential* over the coating's life but they are better used periodically and not regularly. Pick the wrong topper and it can actually detract from the performance of the coating that you've spent hundreds of pounds on - applying a spray wax or polymer sealant to a coating just makes so little sense - they just invite contamination and reduce the overall self cleaning effect. It's like wrapping platinum in tinfoil!

3) Over-maintenance can be equally detrimental to coatings as under maintenance:

In my experience and following significant testing, even LSPs from the same brand struggle to last on a ceramic coating anywhere near as well as they do to bare paint. I've had a couple of companies including Nanolex admit this to me as well. This aside, certain LSPs (CarPro Reload being one) do not just wash off the paint when they're on their last legs, creating this masking effect lasting weeks which lead many to believe that the underlying coating is dead. I have seen maybe 15 to 20 of these threads over the last 3 months, the most obvious cases are those manufacturers that advise you to immediately 'weatherproof' your freshly applied coating using their SIO2 sealant. Many people remedy this issue by throwing more product at the impacted area. It's worth noting that not all LSPs fail in this way.

4) There are fine margins when trying undo over-maintenance:

The course of action often recommended to resolve #3 is to use a fallout remover, the strongest tar remover, APC or TFR because the coating is clogged. If the car has been continually topped this will in turn limit the amount of 'sealed in' contamination that can be removed chemically. Really what you want to do is peel back those layers and take the contamination with them - sometimes possible with a strong APC or repeat hits of a strip shampoo, before then doing the decon steps, but quite often the APC or strip wash can damage the coating - particularly hydrophobic top coats like Skin, Exo and Gliss. Many believe that coatings are impervious to repeat use of high and low pH chemicals but they aren't.. that is one benefit of the otherwise pointless chemical resistance testing we see on YouTube, you'll struggle to find any coating maintain performance past 5 or 6 hits.

*What to do?*

- Enjoy your coating's initial performance.
- Top it periodically, not regularly.
- Only top it when the car is fully clean and decontaminated.
- Pre washes are essential to reduce the scrubbing effect from marring but;
- Maintain with chemicals that are compatible with coatings and use higher pH cleaners sparingly and depending on the situation (a 4% BH Auto Foam pre-clean is excessive when the car is dusty) - even neutral cleaners do a good job of softening and removing lighter dust/debris.


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## noorth (Jul 10, 2019)

atbalfour said:


> Hey folks.. this is a subject that has continued to interest me and I'm glad to say that I've got to the bottom of the issue (or issues);
> 
> I'm posting a summary so that hopefully it will help someone else with a ceramic coating from making the same initial mistakes and the wild goose chase that ensues. Ironically the stakes aren't quite as high when you've a short term protection applied, as you can clay and polish your paint at the expense of only time and clearcoat!
> 
> ...


Just to play devil's advocate.

Why would carpro design reload to mask its coatings?

In regards to chemical tests of coatings i've seen on youtube i have the exact opposite experience then you. They all seem to suggest coatings are extremely robust to chemicals.


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## Coatings (Feb 10, 2020)

This makes some sense but the part where you say the topper won’t bond to its fullest but yet it will sandwich in contamination doesn’t make sense to me.

I do agree it is difficult to surgically clean a you may get some contamination that sticks. I find a alkaline strip wash does best to remove as you have said.

This would get my rockers back to comparable performance to rest of surfaces. I noticed no degridation up to 18 months on CqUK3.

Was still performing well but car was totaled.


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## atbalfour (Aug 11, 2019)

noorth said:


> Just to play devil's advocate.
> 
> Why would carpro design reload to mask its coatings?
> 
> In regards to chemical tests of coatings i've seen on youtube i have the exact opposite experience then you. They all seem to suggest coatings are extremely robust to chemicals.


You'd need to ask Avi that! I'm not sure they've been intentionally 'designed' that way.. it's just something that happens. I've experienced it testing with multiple products including Reload, it's been commented many times on the CarPro forum, experienced on here with Gyeon Cure to give two practical examples. The saving grace with Reload is that a very heavy wash with Reset and then following up with Eraser seems to remove that residual product from masking the underlying coating. Many don't know to do that and end up applying more Reload, or complain that their coating is dead.

Re. Chemical testing, withstanding one isolated hit of something is all well and good but think about multiple hits over a coatings life span. This doesn't erode it from the surface completely but in case of those hydrophobic top coats I referenced in my first post, they are extremely susceptible to heavy cleaners.

Have a look at how Apex, CarCraft etc. chemically test LSPs and pretty much everything they test does break down with a stronger solution of APC over 5 or 6 attempts. Yes that is an excessive dilution but when introducing regular wear and using these weekly over a period of months these do start to take their toll, (as someone who regularly applies coatings which I see periodically for maintenance or 'fixing'.)

I say it regularly, there's a reason coating manufacturers publish pH tolerances. There's also a reason you'll struggle to find any coating manufacturer recommend regular use of a high pH traffic film remover or pre wash. They're only recommended periodically.

Was speaking with Maz at Garage Therapy recently and he said he'd agree that aggressive maintenance schedules are "very concerning" and "doesn't fit well with the science"... this coming from a company who specialise in those powerful cleaners to reset coatings.

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## atbalfour (Aug 11, 2019)

Coatings said:


> This makes some sense but the part where you say the topper won't bond to its fullest but yet it will sandwich in contamination doesn't make sense to me.
> 
> I do agree it is difficult to surgically clean a you may get some contamination that sticks. I find a alkaline strip wash does best to remove as you have said.
> 
> ...


Toppers do bond, but none that I have used, applied to even a working, decontaminated coating (or a completely fresh one) last as long as they do standalone. That's not the over arching theme of my post btw.. just an observation and that's not to say they don't last or work, because they do, they just do so for a shorter window. Polish Angel Cosmic Spritz and High Gloss are a couple of the worst culprits here.

Applied to sections that are contaminated, I've found products to last even less time (still a number of weeks, however not the months they can do when applied to prepped, bare paint). The problem isn't applying a topper every now and then as they'll erode away, it's the repeat applications every week or fortnight between regular washes which allows that contamination to be trapped in. If you're applying CarPro Reload every fortnight and then the following week you want to give your car it's half yearly decontamination you'll be surprised how ineffective an iron remover is, to provide one example.

I wish I had the scientific background to understand to what extent this happens and why. All I can say is that I have attempted to be as methodical as possible in my testing and only draw these conclusions having been able to repeat my results, alter one factor to then repeat the testing with a different conclusion. It helps that I do see a fair few cars (all coated).


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## noorth (Jul 10, 2019)

atbalfour said:


> You'd need to ask Avi that! I'm not sure they've been intentionally 'designed' that way.. it's just something that happens. I've experienced it testing with multiple products including Reload, it's been commented many times on the CarPro forum, experienced on here with Gyeon Cure to give two practical examples. The saving grace with Reload is that a very heavy wash with Reset and then following up with Eraser seems to remove that residual product from masking the underlying coating. Many don't know to do that and end up applying more Reload, or complain that their coating is dead.
> 
> Re. Chemical testing, withstanding one isolated hit of something is all well and good but think about multiple hits over a coatings life span. This doesn't erode it from the surface completely but in case of those hydrophobic top coats I referenced in my first post, they are extremely susceptible to heavy cleaners.
> 
> ...


Haha 

I might try using reset and gyeon prep if i'm not happy with my water performance after my next wash. I topped my coating with reload has well but it was cut 50/50 with water. It was suggested to me by Sandro actually in a DM. Super easy to work with cut 50/50, i never tried it full strength.

I'm with you on all the toppers however. I might just let my coating ride over the winter and see how it does. If its fine next summer i might deep clean and apply cancoat. Unless i decide to polish again....who knows...lol

I might even re-apply CQUK to areas/panels i'm not happy with or use Nv EVO if the product still looks good in the bottle, its open. I can get 10ml bottles of CQUK here.


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## MAUI (Feb 1, 2008)

noorth said:


> Just to play devil's advocate.
> 
> Why would carpro design reload to mask its coatings?
> 
> Reload was designed to prevent water spotting on freshly applied UK 3.0.


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## atbalfour (Aug 11, 2019)

Just on that point, I have never understood why companies claim that toppers can prevent water spotting.. nothing *prevents* water spotting. Any hydrophobic waxes, sealants, SiO2 toppers and coatings are all equally prone to water spotting - the idea I believe is that the sacrificial layers will bare the brunt of the impact and eventually erode off the paint anyway, where if a ceramic coating is water spotted it'll need to be chemically removed (or polished off if it's been left for a long time).

This wouldn't be a big issue to anyone who maintains their car regularly.. there are so many good maintenance products (even shampoos and QDs as well as your traditional water spot removers) that sort the issue regardless of the LSP. A topper is definitely not essential for this purpose.


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## Itstony (Jan 19, 2018)

Yep Adam. that ^^^^^ last paragraph is so correct. It may not feel like as much fun, but it really is the way to go. Keep it simple, keep it clean and rather than attempt to stave off the inevitable, return to step one. 
Maintenance over quick fixes always for me. 
A quick decon routine and polish polish puts it quickly in place for the best part. Then fresh LSP. But TBF most may not have that time, place and weather for that regular routine. Best cure though.
Sure you will be know I am loving the M&K Wax+. It's very light and has SIO2 in it. I deem it a QD. 
TBF most may not have that time, place and weather for that. :thumb:


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## roscopervis (Aug 22, 2006)

atbalfour said:


> Toppers do bond, but none that I have used, applied to even a working, decontaminated coating (or a completely fresh one) last as long as they do standalone. That's not the over arching theme of my post btw.. just an observation and that's not to say they don't last or work, because they do, they just do so for a shorter window. Polish Angel Cosmic Spritz and High Gloss are a couple of the worst culprits here.
> 
> Applied to sections that are contaminated, I've found products to last even less time (still a number of weeks, however not the months they can do when applied to prepped, bare paint). The problem isn't applying a topper every now and then as they'll erode away, it's the repeat applications every week or fortnight between regular washes which allows that contamination to be trapped in. If you're applying CarPro Reload every fortnight and then the following week you want to give your car it's half yearly decontamination you'll be surprised how ineffective an iron remover is, to provide one example.
> 
> I wish I had the scientific background to understand to what extent this happens and why. All I can say is that I have attempted to be as methodical as possible in my testing and only draw these conclusions having been able to repeat my results, alter one factor to then repeat the testing with a different conclusion. It helps that I do see a fair few cars (all coated).


This is something I've seen a lot of over the last couple of years. It took me a while to figure it out and I had to use my own coated car to test some ideas on, but it is exactly right. Applying decently durable protection products too frequently is bad, mmmkay.

These layers of product that trap in the contamination kill gloss, kill water behaviour and also makes it much harder to chemically remove them as there is such a lot of it baked on.

If the car is coated, make sure the surface is clean and contamination free (as possible) so it can do its job.


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## atbalfour (Aug 11, 2019)

Sadly there isn't much press on this.. companies won't tell you because you'll buy fewer LSPs and decon products from them.

Full time pros are normally involved in maintenance where the owner doesn't want to be (so this doesn't really occur). With a few exceptions those I know and have trained with aren't massive sharers of information either. 

It's not flashy or exciting enough for tonnes of views or likes on YouTube either.

With that in mind, even if there was greater publicity around it, would people change their habits? Probably not.. LSPs are becoming easier and more fun to apply. Not many take detailing as seriously (or are interested in understanding best practice) as those engaging in this thread!! 

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## Itstony (Jan 19, 2018)

Very true Adam. 
For a non Pro (I say loosely) most want to buy and use all they see and end up using everything to justify it. We all have "bin there done that one".
Do what you want on your own car if that pleases and fills a gap, but it may not prove a smart move and be counter productive. Not always, a few are found to be able to apply others places and situations. 
But heh! that's is part of the fun and leaning process to find what works and doesn't for yourself. 
That is why there are always questions asking 'Best" and replies "I use", which may not be relevant, or arrived at, by experience of actually using others to compare.:thumb:


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