# FINIS-WAX, multiple layers?



## DampDog (Apr 16, 2011)

Well I've just dug out some Bilt-Hamber, FINIS wax that I've had on the shelf for age and doesn't look like I've ever used it. I really cannot remember the last time I used and old fashioned paste wax and have to say it's blown me away, way better than I expected to be. It's on VW reflex silver and it's worked a treat.

Now with regards to adding another layer? Is it likely to improve the finish or is a single application the way to go?


----------



## crxftyyy (Jan 17, 2018)

I may stand corrected, but I always double up on wax purely to increase durability as per most manufacturers guidance. 

Sent from my CLT-L09 using Tapatalk


----------



## DampDog (Apr 16, 2011)

crxftyyy said:


> I may stand corrected, but I always double up on wax purely to increase durability as per most manufacturers guidance.


It doesn't actually mention anything about applying a second coat in the instructions for the wax.

Does the first coat need time to cure?


----------



## crxftyyy (Jan 17, 2018)

I usually leave a minimum of an hour between coats, some need 4. Unfortunately I haven't had hands on experience with finis to be able to tell you sorry, I usually apply a later and another on next wash if in doubt 

Sent from my CLT-L09 using Tapatalk


----------



## Ross (Apr 25, 2007)

I'd leave it 24 hours before coats,I used it on my sliver Caddy van and the finish was very good. I found the BH QD worked really nice over the top of it.


----------



## DampDog (Apr 16, 2011)

Ross said:


> I'd leave it 24 hours before coats,I used it on my sliver Caddy van and the finish was very good. I found the BH QD worked really nice over the top of it.


I may give BH QD a go. I've just finished off the last of one of their soft clay bars off so need another, so may tag some on to the order.


----------



## GeeWhizRS (Nov 1, 2019)

I don't use wax so please see this as nothing more than a curious spectator throwing out a question for consideration. If a product (any type of LSP) needs a cure time, don't they usually have guidance in the instructions regarding not getting wet, or washing etc for a period of time? If then, there is no guidance given regarding care immediately after applying, can we not then surmise that the coating is good to go from the moment it is buffed off?


----------



## dreamtheater (Apr 12, 2010)

I generally leave an hour between layering the next application.


----------



## roscopervis (Aug 22, 2006)

The second layer will add durability, though I'm not sure about looks.

GeeWhizRS, waxes curing and bonding isn't the same as coatings. It isn't as hard a bond, but the solvents need to fully evaporate and the waxes/polymers need to 'stick'. The more durable the wax, usually the longer this takes, but it isn't like a coating. An hour or 2 is usually enough. A second layer literally doesn't add another layer, but it beefs up what is there making it as thick as it can be. After this, further layers are unlikely to do anything further.


----------



## GeeWhizRS (Nov 1, 2019)

The coating is wafer thin, (said like the Mr Creosote sketch  ) it can't take long to cure. Just seems a bit weird that as adding multiple layers seems so common amongst the waxers, it is not detailed in the instructions. 🤔 It would be interesting to hear from someone who makes wax. Maybe John at M&K will see this.


----------



## dreamtheater (Apr 12, 2010)

A second layer is generally used to make sure that you have not missed any area's from when you applied the first layer.


----------



## GSVHammer (Feb 7, 2009)

Polished Bliss say allow 12hrs between layers.


----------



## DampDog (Apr 16, 2011)

Thanks folks.

Well I thought I's give it a try and apply a second coat starting with the tailgate to get a feel for it.

I left it 4-5 hours before applying the second coat. To me it felt like FINIS wasn't well suited to a second coat. It was way, way more "draggy" on the second coat and felt like it was softening the first coat rather than applying another layer of protection. Also it made a huge amount of dust compared to the first coat when polishing off. Also to my eye, there wasn't any perceivable difference in finish. 

It may be the wax, of it might be it needed longer to cure, but I think I'll stick to a single coat.

I may try something different. What is the go-to product for metallic silver at the moment for a glassy/shiny finish?


----------



## westerman (Oct 12, 2008)

I think it's debatable as to whether a second coat is beneficial. I usually do apply one but as said above, just to ensure I fully cover everywhere.
I always leave the first coat to cure until next day to try to ensure I layer rather than replace the first coat.

Harry


----------



## roscopervis (Aug 22, 2006)

I apply the second coat after the first wash a week later. That way it has definitely fully cured and it will be as clean as possible and accepting for the next layer. I find this gives the best durability too


----------



## GeeWhizRS (Nov 1, 2019)

Out of interest, how much more durability do you find this offers Rosco? And what wax are you using?


----------



## roscopervis (Aug 22, 2006)

It depends on the wax but as an example most people are at least aware of BH Double Speed Wax. One layer would struggle to 4 months, 2 layers would get much easier to 4 months, looking better all the time and look better at 6 months than 1 layer did at 4 months. So with a durable wax, 2 months roughly. Collinite 915 adds about a month. Natty's blue, maybe another 2 or 3 weeks. 

Most waxes aren't that durable, and the layering works better on waxes with a durable polymer/hybrid base. If it was a more show wax type, then if you were expecting a month, another week or 2 maybe isn't worth it for the extra layer.

Your typical polymer or ceramic 'infused' sealants I find add a similar percentage of durability.

Finally though, if you know you're going to be experimenting with different products don't bother with layers as you're only gonna be taking it off soon anyway.


----------



## GeeWhizRS (Nov 1, 2019)

Interesting. Cheers bud. 👍


----------



## DampDog (Apr 16, 2011)

Is there any point in using a quick detailer on top once you've waxed, or does it sort of defeat the purpose.

As above, I've given FINIS a go and am pleasantly surprised by gloss, though since the cars been wet it doesn't seem quite as hydrophobic as it was when finishing off with BSD. 

Is it a good idea to use BSD or similar over wax products. Also are folk diluting their BSD? I've read it works better and also as a drying aid at 3:1?

Also, I've simply washed and clayed the car before applying FINIS, is that the best approach. Or is it worth using something like Autoglym SRP, as a pre- clean as I assume it's very, mildly abrasive.

I will add I'm not "into" detailing as such, so not spent hours reading through this forum, I just want to try and get the best out of what I'm using (most of which has sat on a shelf in the garage for a very long time) and not **** it up or make extra work needlessly. I'll be honest I get lost in the sea of products and how they should be applied.


----------



## Woodsmoke (Feb 12, 2018)

DampDog said:


> Is there any point in using a quick detailer on top once you've waxed, or does it sort of defeat the purpose.
> 
> As above, I've given FINIS a go and am pleasantly surprised by gloss, though since the cars been wet it doesn't seem quite as hydrophobic as it was when finishing off with BSD.
> 
> ...


Bilt hamber do a cleanser polish this i find as very good base for there waxes and ensures a good surface for the wax, (also if your not hugely into detailing maybe trying a good iron remover before hand polish and wax to just remove some contamination) prep is key for length of a product.

Nothing wrong with popping a QD over a wax after maintenance washes, i would often use BH QD as a top up but nothing wrong with using BSD or anything like that.


----------



## DampDog (Apr 16, 2011)

Woodsmoke said:


> Bilt hamber do a cleanser polish this i find as very good base for there waxes and ensures a good surface for the wax, (also if your not hugely into detailing maybe trying a good iron remover before hand polish and wax to just remove some contamination) prep is key for length of a product.
> 
> Nothing wrong with popping a QD over a wax after maintenance washes, i would often use BH QD as a top up but nothing wrong with using BSD or anything like that.


I was thinking of getting a few more bits and pieces from BH. I will add some Korrosol to my list. You're right they do list a cleanser polish, so may give that a go (out of stock at the moment) I tried BSD just on the bonnet. While finish wise there was no discernible in gloss, it didn't feel as silky/smooth to the touch as just using the wax. (just an observation) I'm tempted to give their Hydra-Wax or Double-Speed Wax a go try.

For the most part i've stuck with trusty old SRP for years, just fancied a go with a more traditional paste wax. I bought a trial pot of FINIS on a whim way back.

I've also reached an age that following a day polishing the car I can barely move my elbow this morning, so maybe it's time to buy some form of mechanical polisher. Something else for the "list"


----------



## Taxboy (Aug 23, 2006)

Another vote for the cleanser polish. Surprising how much dirt it can still pull out of paint and easy to use.

You are correct BSD does not leave a smooth finish as it's the way it works in beading water. Very glossy and great value though

Sent from my moto g(7) plus using Tapatalk


----------



## Woodsmoke (Feb 12, 2018)

Hyrdrawax is a great product, easy to apply and last 3-4 months on prepped paint but also great as a quick top up to extend the life of you current wax application. DSW is good too though there isn't huge amounts between it and Finnis from what I can tell. 

BH QD is a great product as it can be diluted with DI water as rinse and aid and so on, Not as hydrophobic or pure glossy as BSD but slicker and just great value as its a concentrate so for gloss spray you use it diluted 2 or 3 too 1.

Wise to purchase korrosal by far the best iron remover I've used, i still use cleanser polish alot its the best hand polish I've found yet, I use easier application paste wax's myself now as I had issues with DSW on dark paint others haven't, but can't really go wrong with any of there products performance and value everytime.


----------



## roscopervis (Aug 22, 2006)

DampDog said:


> Is there any point in using a quick detailer on top once you've waxed, or does it sort of defeat the purpose.
> 
> As above, I've given FINIS a go and am pleasantly surprised by gloss, though since the cars been wet it doesn't seem quite as hydrophobic as it was when finishing off with BSD.
> 
> ...


You've picked up an important point quicker than many - topping a product with another product will change the visual properties to that of the topper product. This is fine when your original product is designed to have this done, like many ceramic coats or when your wax is getting tired.

Doing it with new wax, or an expensive product designed to be used as your last stage product often makes little sense as the products used to top up aren't as good as the product they are going on top of. However, in some cases, the top up products can bring something to the table and in BSD's case, it is visually impressive hydrophobics. I am not against experimenting.

With regards to the preparation of the surface before application, most products will work best and produce their best durability on a bare and totally clean surface. Ideally, this will be achieved after machine polishing so the surface is also free of defects. However, many don't have that luxury so products like SRP and BH Cleanser Polish exist to replicate that process as much as possible in one step. These two products also leave behind a resin that wax can stick to acceptably. It probably won't be for as long as bare paint, but it won't be compromised too much and the benefit in the finish is worth the reduction. Other similar products aren't as sympathetic to products on top so this is an area where people need to take care to ensure that the products they intend to use are compatible. For example, Autoglym Ultra Deep Shine is quite similar to Super Resin Polish, but does not accept products on top of it.


----------



## DampDog (Apr 16, 2011)

roscopervis said:


> With regards to the preparation of the surface before application, most products will work best and produce their best durability on a bare and totally clean surface. Ideally, this will be achieved after machine polishing so the surface is also free of defects. However, many don't have that luxury so products like SRP and BH Cleanser Polish exist to replicate that process as much as possible in one step. These two products also leave behind a resin that wax can stick to acceptably. It probably won't be for as long as bare paint, but it won't be compromised too much and the benefit in the finish is worth the reduction. Other similar products aren't as sympathetic to products on top so this is an area where people need to take care to ensure that the products they intend to use are compatible. For example, Autoglym Ultra Deep Shine is quite similar to Super Resin Polish, but does not accept products on top of it.


That's a good point, I definitely fall into the fair weather/weekend warrior category. I bet I've had a mechanical polisher on my wish-list for well over 10 years! While I'd love to have a go, I'm tight so can't justify spending circa £100 on something that only gets used once in a blue moon. As you say that sort of leaves you limited to the products that are powered by elbow-grease, which limits you to relatively minor correction, which for most folk is enough and there are some good results to be had for not a lot of money.

Things seem to have moved on, "Detailing" now generates lots of money and the range of products out there is probably too much for the novice. I lump myself into that category. I like to know I'm doing it right "sort of" but just don't have the time or money to garner a passion that see's me drill down into the performance of everything new that pops up.

Washing the car sends my poor little brain into melt-down. Having spent a whole weekend washing, cleaning and polishing. What's the best product to wash the car next time and not strip everything back off!!??

I do fancy treating myself to a snow foam gizzmo next so at some point there will be more questions on products and kit.


----------



## Lexus-is250 (Feb 4, 2017)

DampDog said:


> That's a good point, I definitely fall into the fair weather/weekend warrior category. I bet I've had a mechanical polisher on my wish-list for well over 10 years! While I'd love to have a go, I'm tight so can't justify spending circa £100 on something that only gets used once in a blue moon. As you say that sort of leaves you limited to the products that are powered by elbow-grease, which limits you to relatively minor correction, which for most folk is enough and there are some good results to be had for not a lot of money.
> 
> Things seem to have moved on, "Detailing" now generates lots of money and the range of products out there is probably too much for the novice. I lump myself into that category. I like to know I'm doing it right "sort of" but just don't have the time or money to garner a passion that see's me drill down into the performance of everything new that pops up.
> 
> ...


I suppose you could look at polishers in a different way. You could spend let's say £100 and get a cheap argos or Amazon etc da plus get a few bits for it. If your using super resin or similar the machine would probably be out more than once a year, and the results alone will make you want to use it again trust me. It will last you ages so you will eventually get the use out of it. You may step up and buy some compounds and try them.

It's a rabbit hole....you just need to step in.

Sent from my SM-A505FN using Tapatalk


----------



## DampDog (Apr 16, 2011)

Lexus-is250 said:


> I suppose you could look at polishers in a different way. You could spend let's say £100 and get a cheap argos or Amazon etc da plus get a few bits for it. If your using super resin or similar the machine would probably be out more than once a year, and the results alone will make you want to use it again trust me. It will last you ages so you will eventually get the use out of it. You may step up and buy some compounds and try them.
> 
> It's a rabbit hole....you just need to step in.


I think you're right and that's how people get drawn into the whole "detailing" merry go round.

In truth with the state of things at the moment treating myself to a DA has fallen quite a long way down my list of priorities. Also it's doesn't stop at £100 ish does it, it never does.

What is the asking for a halfway decent DA. List time I looked a DAS-6 was circa £130. On top of that you need a selection of pads and compounds to get you going, so probably closer to £180+ before you've seen a gloss!

edit:- I've just had a quick google, and there are quite a few sub £100 machines here and there, though most are quite random manufacturers. Anyone had any experiences with them? good or bad?


----------



## Lexus-is250 (Feb 4, 2017)

DampDog said:


> I think you're right and that's how people get drawn into the whole "detailing" merry go round.
> 
> In truth with the state of things at the moment treating myself to a DA has fallen quite a long way down my list of priorities. Also it's doesn't stop at £100 ish does it, it never does.
> 
> ...


I've got one of the argos ones. I got the old one on clearance for £35 and brought a couple of different size backing plates ( 5 and 3 inch ) and 2 pads for each size plate. I've done 5 cars whilst furloughed and it's still going fine. It's only 600w so it's slow correction at times but you would be surprised what you can do with it in a few hours.

If you dont have the money then dont get one as it a outlay you dont need. Searching about can get stuff at reasonable prices that's perfectly fine eg car chem polishes, they work fine and are a bit cheaper. Or just stick with srp on it and it will come up better.

Sent from my SM-A505FN using Tapatalk


----------



## DampDog (Apr 16, 2011)

Lexus-is250 said:


> I've got one of the argos ones. I got the old one on clearance for £35 and brought a couple of different size backing plates ( 5 and 3 inch ) and 2 pads for each size plate. I've done 5 cars whilst furloughed and it's still going fine. It's only 600w so it's slow correction at times but you would be surprised what you can do with it in a few hours.
> 
> If you dont have the money then dont get one as it a outlay you dont need. Searching about can get stuff at reasonable prices that's perfectly fine eg car chem polishes, they work fine and are a bit cheaper. Or just stick with srp on it and it will come up better.


While I'm going off at a tangent as per usual. With regards to polishers. Just how interchangeable are the backing disks and various pads. Is there a danger that if you buy a cheap brand that it will be nigh on impossible to swap bits out.

The Guild one that Argos are knocking out for £50 looks a reasonable machine for occasional use. Assuming you can swap out the backing disk and pads.


----------



## Lexus-is250 (Feb 4, 2017)

DampDog said:


> While I'm going off at a tangent as per usual. With regards to polishers. Just how interchangeable are the backing disks and various pads. Is there a danger that if you buy a cheap brand that it will be nigh on impossible to swap bits out.
> 
> The Guild one that Argos are knocking out for £50 looks a reasonable machine for occasional use. Assuming you can swap out the backing disk and pads.


Yes you can they are all the same size

Sent from my SM-A505FN using Tapatalk


----------

