# Menzerna to Scholl



## mikey330i (Apr 14, 2013)

Hi all,

I’ve done some searching on the subject but no specific answers to my questions so here goes...

I use a DAS6 and have done so for 6 or more years as a weekend warrior. 

Since having the DAS, I have used Menz polishes on CG hex pads and always got on well with them. 

However, recently I’ve been wanting a slightly quicker polish. Menz have a decent, long work time. But I’ve been reading a lot about Scholl polishes. 

My go to polishes for Menz are:

FG400,
2200-2500 range,
3500. 

Firstly, what are the equivalent Scholl polishes to the ones above? 

Secondly, do the Scholl polishes break down faster than the Menz polishes? Would I be able to do less passes with the Scholl than the Menz? 

I use CG hex pads, would these still be effective with the Scholl polishes? Or would it be recommended to change them to an alternative? 

I’m keen to give the Scholl polishes a go but would the info on them first. The Menz range I have tend to be good for a different range of paint types and hardness and I would like to have the same choice of range from the Scholl products, so suggestions would be massively appreciated. 

Thanks in advance,

Mike


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## Steampunk (Aug 11, 2011)

S3 XXL has similar cut potential to FG400. 
S17+ has similar cut potential to MC2200. S20 Black cuts similarly, but finishes MUCH better.
S20 Blue has similar cut potential to MC2500. 
S30+ has similar cut to SF3500.

They all cut/break down _much_ faster than the Menz range, and on DA's I've found can finish _a little_ better with the right technique.

The priming technique differs a lot... With Menz, you apply 4-pea size blobs of polish, and then follow a normal ZPM process. The polish breaks down in a linear way. With Scholl, you 'semi-prime' the pads (Smudging them 10-15 times with polish, rather than leaving blobs, working the product into the pad with a gloved hand, and then applying 2-4 peas of polish. It's like halfway to KBM priming.). Then you spread at speed one on a DAS-6, increase to speed 3.5-5 immediately, work the product for 4-6 passes with pressure, reduce pressure, and then work for a similar number of passes, before reducing speed to 1 for a final pass. Imagine the Scholl products as being 'stepped' in how their abrasives break down... Rather than diminishing in a perfectly linear curve, they hold their aggression as a flat plateau, then break down quickly, and remain at their finishing scale for the rest of the set. Kind of like having a non-diminishing compound on a timer, which then becomes a non-diminishing finishing polish, after a very rapid transformation.










You can use Scholl with Hex-Logics, and in this case I'd recommend the Yellow and White pads. However, Scholl makes amazing pads, and it's part of the magic of their system. If you really want to know what Scholl is capable of, get some Spider pads. On a DAS-6, the White Sandwich Spider and NEO Honey spider are real game-changers. Even if you just pick up one of each of those two to test, the pads will probably win you over even more than the polishes.

Menz and Scholl both are great examples of German polish engineering, and can achieve incredible results. I just find that Scholl works a little better in real-world conditions, especially with DA's, and isn't anywhere near as finicky in regards to humidity or cold/heat as Menz.










S20 Black.

Hope this helps...

- Steampunk


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## jcooper5083 (Jun 10, 2018)

I have just recently been advised about the Menzerna compound time as I purchased the polishes for my first time of DA use - having so much experience yourself are the polishes really that long to work in? I am worried I have brought polishes that are not ideal for a first timer?

I was advised that Scholl is a lot quicker to use.


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## Andy from Sandy (May 6, 2011)

You have got very good polish for a first timer. Technique trumps product. It is not a race!

You should of by now done plenty of reading and watched some videos or possibly been to see how a professional uses a machine. Spread the polish at a speed of 1 moving the machine quite quickly to get the area covered. Increase speed to 4 or 5 and run the set with pressure. Slow the machine down and reduce pressure for a pass and you are done. Do a wipe down and check results, optionally check removal. Repeat as necessary for desired result.

If you don't apply pressure you won't break the polish down.

You will run the set until the polish goes clear. If you strike your finger on the surface it will show that the surface now appears to just be greasy.


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## Pembroke_Boy (Aug 24, 2017)

More superb advice from Steampunk. Great advice given as always. Thank you sir!


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## mikey330i (Apr 14, 2013)

Steampunk said:


> S3 XXL has similar cut potential to FG400.
> S17+ has similar cut potential to MC2200. S20 Black cuts similarly, but finishes MUCH better.
> S20 Blue has similar cut potential to MC2500.
> S30+ has similar cut to SF3500.
> ...


Amazing. This was just what I was after. Thank you. I'll give the pads a go as well.

When you say much faster break down, how much quicker out of curiosity?

jcooper5083 - Menz polishes are very decent and capable and what I started off using and what I still use now. You won't be disappointed.


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## jcooper5083 (Jun 10, 2018)

Thanks for the reassurance guys - really happy to hear this and in terms of reading up I have spent a good year doing so before taking the plunge - lol. kept talking myself out of it as worried about damaging the paint but no point being able to do all the decon and other detailing activities if still left with swirls...lol

Thanks again guys.


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## mikey330i (Apr 14, 2013)

Steampunk - Where can I get S20 Blue from?


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## Andy from Sandy (May 6, 2011)

Looking at the Scholl website I don't think it is available.

https://www.schollconcepts.com/en/products/premium-rubbing-compounds

This lot looks interesting

https://www.schollconcepts.com/en/products/ecofix-compounds


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## Steampunk (Aug 11, 2011)

mikey330i said:


> Steampunk - Where can I get S20 Blue from?


Spautopia and Elite Car Care both used to decant this product for resale... It was an OEM line correction polish I believe developed for Porsche (Product designation, S20B.) and was incredible... I just checked, and neither have it in stock any longer... Curses! Another great polish lost to consumers, just like Optimum Polish II. Feels like all the awesome polishes are being discontinued lately. :wall: 

Maybe it could still be found in 5kg form, if one contacted Scholl distributors, or Scholl themselves...

P2500 grade polishes are really underrated these days. Everyone wants P1000-1200 grade compounds, and P1500 grade 1-step polishes. You don't always need products that aggressive! Those P2500 ones fall into a really useful range in the real world.

- Steampunk

P.S. Feeling depressed, now. I've always relied on S20 Blue on sticky Japanese paint. S20 Black isn't workable on these sorts of finishes.


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## mikey330i (Apr 14, 2013)

Steampunk said:


> Spautopia and Elite Car Care both used to decant this product for resale... It was an OEM line correction polish I believe developed for Porsche (Product designation, S20B.) and was incredible... I just checked, and neither have it in stock any longer... Curses! Another great polish lost to consumers, just like Optimum Polish II. Feels like all the awesome polishes are being discontinued lately. :wall:
> 
> Maybe it could still be found in 5kg form, if one contacted Scholl distributors, or Scholl themselves...
> 
> ...


Ha, sorry I've depressed you! Shame the S20 Blue has been discontinued!

I'm thinking of eventually changing my machine to a Forced Drive, probably a Vertool. Is there any difference in the polishing technique you described above when using Scholl polishes? Used a DA for a while but the Forced Drive stuff is new to me.

Thanks,

Mike


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## Steampunk (Aug 11, 2011)

mikey330i said:


> Ha, sorry I've depressed you! Shame the S20 Blue has been discontinued!
> 
> I'm thinking of eventually changing my machine to a Forced Drive, probably a Vertool. Is there any difference in the polishing technique you described above when using Scholl polishes? Used a DA for a while but the Forced Drive stuff is new to me.
> 
> ...


Lol, not your fault, Dude... 

It is a darn shame about S20 Blue. Not sure if it's discontinued, as it's still listed on Scholl's site under the OEM line, but it is certainly unobtanium through conventional retail channels at the moment.

Regarding the technique on forced rotation, it is essentially the same, but stick to the lower speeds and less passes than one would with a basic 8mm free-rotation DA. It's a more powerful machine, and gets the job done a bit faster... Speed 1 for one pass, Speed 3-4 for 3-4 passes with pressure, 3-4 passes without, and then finish down with no pressure on Speed 1 again. Priming technique is largely the same. S30+ is the only anomaly; prime it a bit heavier on forced rotation, as it's not as oily as the rest. Forced rotation really likes well lubed polishes.

With an 8mm free-rotation DA, you tend to need more passes and higher speeds within a technique spectrum.

With Scholl, if the paint/plastic is sticky or heat sensitive, just slow it right down... More passes, less speed. Same concepts around the 'staged' breakdown of the abrasives. Scholl doesn't need heat like Menz to get the lubes flowing, and also always remember that you should be finishing on a lubricant film that is very nearly as thick as when you started! Don't work it until it thins out... That just does more harm than good.

I like my Festool RO125 a lot. Like you, I moved to forced rotation from an entry level DA; a Meg's G110 V2. The difference was shocking, and I had to re-learn almost from scratch, but it was a great upgrade. You have to be much more conscious of keeping the pad level or balanced on the panel so it doesn't haul you around, but the machine tells you what it wants you to do, so this is a skill quickly learned. You can still bear down on it and use pressure, and you can still tilt the pad when you need, but you need a lighter touch, and you need to be more conscious of heat. When you get a forced rotation DA, you also have to throw many of your old pad/polish combos out the window, and start over... Stuff that used to work awesome on your old machine, becomes a nightmare on the new one, and vice versa. Microfiber pads, LSP application, and certain AIO/glaze products (Like SRP) are perfect on free-throw DA's, but really misbehave on forced rotation. On the flip side, relatively mild pad/product combos gain a whole new lease of life as powerful 1-steps, and you start to have fun with new things, like short wool pads. On an entry level DA, you have to step up to more aggressive pads/products frequently to do the job, but with forced rotation and good technique you can make a finishing or medium polish and medium foam polishing pads move mountains.

The second common upgrade path from an entry-level DA, is to go long-throw. Depending on your technique, this can actually be a weirder transition. You can no longer tilt the pad much at all, apply as much pressure, or get into the same tight spots with a 12-21mm machine that you could with your old 8mm one. It feels really limiting, if you learned how to maximize an 8mm free-throw DA, before switching to long-throw. Using a 3" backing plate/correct pad on a long-throw, is almost like using a 5" backing plate/pad on an 8mm machine... The technique for exploiting long-throw either suits people who never stopped being afraid of their 8mm machine, or used to a rotary. You don't apply as much pressure; you just let the machine, and the speed do the work. You are careful of tilting, and contours that can create pressure spikes. With rotary, you fear those situations because they rapidly build up heat. With a long-throw, you fear them because it causes the pad to stall, and you lose most of your correction power.

I can't say you can ever be 'ham fisted' with polishing, but if you like to apply pressure when polishing, 8mm free throw and 3.6-8mm forced rotation DA's are where it's at. If you don't, and just like to guide the machine, rotary and long throw is what you'll get the best out of.

Hope this helps... :thumb:

- Steampunk


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## NRDetailing (Jul 9, 2018)

Amazing explanations....thanks Steampunk!!


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## mikey330i (Apr 14, 2013)

Steampunk - Once again, a truly epic reply. Thank you. 

I think when money allows I’ll be getting a Forced rotation machine, I feel like I’ve reached the point that I want a slightly stronger/faster acting machine. 

On a side note, I’ve read another thread of yours which mentions the Russ @ Reflectology’s method and would be interested in reading it if you have a link anywhere? 

Thanks,

Mike


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## jcooper5083 (Jun 10, 2018)

Steampunk - you are the fountain of machine polishing knowledge - love it and thank you for sharing.


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## Steampunk (Aug 11, 2011)

mikey330i said:


> Steampunk - Once again, a truly epic reply. Thank you.
> 
> I think when money allows I'll be getting a Forced rotation machine, I feel like I've reached the point that I want a slightly stronger/faster acting machine.
> 
> ...


Always happy to help. I hope you enjoy your new machine when you get it! :thumb:

Russell at Reflectology and Scott at Beau Technique, with the help of Olivier Demul from Scholl are kind of the godfathers of the technique I outlined above... They wrote a wonderful PDF article on the subject years back, and it's from this I was able to get a leg up on understanding how these products worked, regarding the staged working style. They did for Scholl, what Kevin Brown did for SMAT polishes, or DaveKG did for linear diminishing polishes with his ZPM technique... The article is starting to get a little dated, as it's almost entirely rotary-centric, which I've had to adapt to various sorts of DA for my own applications. There are a also a lot more Scholl pads/polishes around now... However, it's still a really good read.

My suggestion is to contact Russell, and politely ask him if he would _please_ share a copy of his 2011 Scholl Concepts 'The Physical Shine' guide with you: https://reflectology.co.uk/contactus/ . I seem to recall people were quite rude in demanding this information, so he used to only ask that people just say 'please' when asking for it, but otherwise he and Scott kept this document close to their chest at the time as both were/are professional detailers.

Russell was also the one that got me into using S20 Blue, which was always a 'hidden gem' amongst those in the know. Not like S20 Black is today, which has gotten the popularity it deserves.

Hope this helps...

- Steampunk


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## mikey330i (Apr 14, 2013)

Thanks again Steampunk. I’ve emailed him so will see what he comes back with!


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## mikey330i (Apr 14, 2013)

Well, I’m very impressed so far. 

I’ve purchased the Vertool forced drive DA with Scholl S20 black and a selection of spider pads. I’ve followed Steampunks instructions and very impressed with the results. 

I’m currently working on an extremely swirled sapphire black BMW. Unfortunately, the S20 with the blue spider pad isn’t enough. So now looking at S3 Gold XXL. 

Steampunk - in regards to the S3, is the priming method and the polishing method the same as S20? I may also add the white spider pad to the arsenal, I assume this is their firmest pad in the line up? 

I ideally don’t want to purchase S30/S40, do you think I could achieve good gloss levels after S3 with S20 and a softer pad on the usually hard BMW paint? 

Thanks in advance,

Mike


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## BrianGT (Apr 11, 2020)

I will allow Steampunk to give you the correct answer.......!! but I use S3 with blue spider pads and at first I failed to prime the pad correctly.
I had watched a Scholl company video where they primed the pad with 4 dots and then went to work but when I tried following that advice I found it wasn't working very well for me.

Steampunk advised that it needed more product so I added another 4 dots in between and it then worked much better and I began to enjoy it. Now I love it! 

A simple thing but it made all the difference. You can actually get a very good finish with S3 with a lighter pad.


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## Titanium Htail (Mar 24, 2012)

I talk to Scott from BT he is still doing work, he has always been helpful in sharing his knowledge.

Ted11 from here is now
Thedevilisinthedetail on FB
he is using Menz with some great technique plus results, check him out.

John Tht


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## Steampunk (Aug 11, 2011)

mikey330i said:


> =Unfortunately, the S20 with the blue spider pad isn't enough. So now looking at S3 Gold XXL.
> 
> Steampunk - in regards to the S3, is the priming method and the polishing method the same as S20? I may also add the white spider pad to the arsenal, I assume this is their firmest pad in the line up?
> 
> ...


Hi Mike,

The priming method with S3 XXL is very similar to S20 Black, so if you're comfortable with one, you're good to go with the other. The White Spider, even with S20 Black, might get you much more correction, with very little reduction in gloss versus the Navy Spider...

As for gloss levels... Well, S20 Black is close to S30+ (Maybe 10% less.) in terms of finish on a NEO Honey Spider pad, but will waste more paint in the refining process than S30+ or S40 if things are already close to perfect after a 1-step with S20 Black/S3 XXL.

When it comes to comparing the finish S20 Black, S30+, and S40 create, here's the deal... They're all different, and not really comparable...

S20 Black's result is hard to describe... It's 'good enough', as a 1-step. If you combine it with the right pad/technique to suit the paint/defect level, an S20 Black 1-step will leave only the pickiest wanting. The main thing is getting the defects sufficiently leveled. After that, the improvements in how the finish looks is incremental. Both S20 Black and S3 XXL can finish out at that level depending on paint hardness. S20 Black and S3 XXL feel like they're from the same abrasive/technology generation. It's like S3 XXL's abrasives just last longer, and create a bit more swarf, but otherwise the way they act is similar. I can get a near 1-step, even on soft paint, with S3 XXL on an orange Scholl pad... I can do the same with S20 Black with a Purple Spider. The cut level of those two combos is pretty close, and so is the finish. Which wins depends on nuance of paint hardness/density. The difference in cut/finish between S20 Black and S3 XXL is typically one pad more aggressive on foam. On wool, S3 XXL starts to advance, but that's another story...

S20 Black on a soft black open-cell foam pad, has roughly the same bite as S30+ on a Scholl Orange foam or CG's Hex White polishing pad, but creates a different 'look'. S20 Black on a black foam finishing pad, or a NEO Honey pad, creates a look that is medium-wet, medium-deep, and probably around the 85-90 gloss unit level. S30+ creates a 'crisper' finish (Panels look flatter, and edges look crisper.), and amplifies flake/pearl more than S20 Black, and will always be about 10% glossier on the same pad. S40 will have a similar level of flake/pearl pop as S20 Black, but WAY more depth/wetness/gloss... Way more; the finishing abrasive grade is a lot finer... Also, if you're finishing only, it wastes a lot less paint in the process of taking a finish from 'alright' to 'WOW!'.

Great looking paint is less about an ultra-fine surface profile, and more about a uniform surface profile. A uniformly 'medium' finish, will blow you away a lot more than a finish with uneven topography that ranging from ultra-fine to ultra-coarse. Get a uniform 'medium', and you'll be blowing people away.

Look at it this way, also... As long as you've dialed-in your technique, and you've fully leveled the surface, finish quality comes from pad and polish. Depending on what pads you have stocked up on, spending 10-15 quid on a bottle of polish might get you a better finish than getting 3-6+ finer pads that might do the same with a coarser polish for the money... Depending upon how many vehicles a year you'll polish, or vice-versa...

I hope this helps...

- Steampunk


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## mikey330i (Apr 14, 2013)

Thanks all for the replies so far! 

Steampunk - again, an awesome, in depth reply. 

Interesting about the pad. I will invest in a white pad. 

I’m thinking then in that case that I’ll get some S3 and some S40 and see how we go from there. The paint I’m looking to correct is pretty bad and 2 hits with S20 on the navy still left a lot of defects. Maybe the white will help correct most of that but will be handy to have the S3 in case. 

What are your thoughts on the new S2 vs the S3 XXL Gold? Which one is more versatile? 

Thanks,

Mike


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## SuperchargedLlama (Apr 25, 2008)

I just want to add a big "thank you" to this thread, especially @steampunk.


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