# Can regular polishing decrease orange peel?



## Marcinzsosnowca (May 13, 2019)

Hello, long time lurker here. 

The case is resprayed Audi A7. It has terrible orange peel like no sanding was done after painting. Beside this it has alot rotary induced swirls and holograms. 
After trying few pad & compound combination on DA I've found MF pad and Würth P10 (got a sample from friend who works in Würth) gives great one step result. I might be wrong but after comparing section before and after I can see orange peel a little bit improved.

Anyone had similiar case? Is this even possibile?


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## fatdazza (Dec 29, 2010)

Marcinzsosnowca said:


> Hello, long time lurker here.
> 
> The case is resprayed Audi A7. It has terrible orange peel like no sanding was done after painting. Beside this it has alot rotary induced swirls and holograms.
> After trying few pad & compound combination on DA I've found MF pad and Würth P10 (got a sample from friend who works in Würth) gives great one step result. I might be wrong but after comparing section before and after I can see orange peel a little bit improved.
> ...


Any abrasive polishing will improve the peel although only minutely (and i would be surprised if you notice). Polish and polish and polish and eventually you will remove the peel, even with an mf pad. You might be on it for days and days though, as the rate of removal will be tiny. If the peel is light, then a denim pad can improve, but for heavy peel, wet sanding will be required.


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## Andy from Sandy (May 6, 2011)

All new cars, well in fact all cars over the last 10 years have terrible orange peal.

I saw a definite improvement using a microfibre pad.


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## Itstony (Jan 19, 2018)

Andy from Sandy said:


> All new cars, well in fact all cars over the last 10 years have terrible orange peal.


That's for sure:thumb:


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## cheekymonkey (Mar 15, 2008)

If your car is clear coated you can only improve the orange peel in the clear coat. orange peel in the actual colour coat will always be there.


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## Coachman (Mar 8, 2015)

The only correct way to remove orange peel is via wet sanding...yes you can use car pro pads, but the correct way is wet sanding. 

Imho polishing won’t effect the peel at all.


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## Marcinzsosnowca (May 13, 2019)

Car is done and i'm still not sure but 51% of me is on a believer side. 
This compund- Würth P10 surprised me, cut and finish a little bit better than Meguiars UC, smells nice and wipes easily.
Thanks for your answers, I wonder what Steampunk thinks about this case (I'm a big fan of this guy)


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## Andy from Sandy (May 6, 2011)

Wet sanding is a way to ensure you don't create masses of dust and the cutting surfaces of the media stay clear so produce maximum cut.

You can dry sand and get the same results but you might need to use more paper and a face mask of some description.

With a solid pad you will be able to remove orange peal but it is the time frame. I saw encouraging results using Mequiar's microfibre system.


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## Marcinzsosnowca (May 13, 2019)

I know that orange peel is terrible nowadays and that it is in clear coat, I've been wet sanding, used denim and jeans pads. I'm asking about this specific thing- is this possibile to even the paint in ANY degree by "regular" polishing


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## sm81 (May 14, 2011)

I don’t think so


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## Andy from Sandy (May 6, 2011)

I have used the Meguiar's DA microfibre system and I did see a difference to the orange peal.

I needed to refine the finish. I am not sure how I would describe the finish but it lacked gloss.


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## Sh1ner (May 19, 2012)

Marcinzsosnowca said:


> I know that orange peel is terrible nowadays and that it is in clear coat, I've been wet sanding, used denim and jeans pads. I'm asking about this specific thing- is this possibile to even the paint in ANY degree by "regular" polishing


Not really no. It will take longer because you will also remove paint from the low areas as well as the high (Chasing your tail).
The idea behind some pads (denim etc) it that they present a flatter surface and conform less to the orange peel but the compound still does its job on all the paint not just the peaks.
A coarse compound just takes off more paint from everywhere, faster
You will remove less clearcoat and do it quicker if you wet sand because you only remove the high spots. Once you can see the high spots are gone (no shiny speckles) you can polish.
Polishing flat clean paint takes little time.


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## waqasr (Oct 22, 2011)

You actually can, but it would take aggressive wool and aggressive compound to make any noticeable different to orange peel, polishing wont really do much at all to it. Like others have said Wetsanding is the only real way.


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## A&J (Mar 4, 2015)

There are actual so called Orange peel removal pads that remove orange peel with polishing and not sanding. Carpro has one, 3M also has one. 
Here is a link from Carpro, the 3m one is also denim (so its similar):
https://carpro.uk.com/products/orange-peel-removal-pad-denim-135mm

And a video from Mike Phillips:


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## pawlik (May 16, 2011)

Marcinzsosnowca said:


> I know that orange peel is terrible nowadays and that it is in clear coat, I've been wet sanding, used denim and jeans pads. I'm asking about this specific thing- is this possibile to even the paint in ANY degree by "regular" polishing


In my practice, I saw this effect many times. BUT only if car was resprayed with cheap, low quality, soft (propably MS type) clear coat. Especially if using rotary with wool pad and heavy cutting compound. In this situations, orange peel was removed about 25-30%.


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## Steampunk (Aug 11, 2011)

Yes, it is possible to reduce orange peel through 'regular' machine polishing (I wouldn't include denim or velvet pads, etc, as being 'regular' polishing. I'm talking foam, MF, and wool.), and I have noticed this effect on a number of occasions. However, it depends on a number of different variables, and the results are not consistent. The only way to _assuredly_ reduce or remove the orange peel, irregardless the paint in question, is with bonded abrasives (Sanding).

Machine polishing is a constant balancing act between the extremes of leveling and contouring. The harder the paint, the finer the abrasive, the less centrifugal force on the pad (Lower RPM's on rotary, lower BP RPM's & shorter strokes on DA.), and the softer the pad media (Finishing pads, soft interface materials on MF, etc.), and the more the polish will want to ride over the texture of the paint rather than try to knock it down. With softer paints, polishes able to cut aggressively without loading (Not just ones that have coarse abrasives, but ones which are also well lubricated, so can absorb large swarf loads and keep cutting without just glazing the pad.), high centrifugal force (As high rotational RPM and as long of a stroke as the paint can handle without generating too much frictional heat.), and aggressive/stiff pad materials (Ideally MF and wool pads with short fibers, and little or no foam interface, mounted on somewhat rigid backing plates.) will actually start to act more aggressively upon the peaks of the paint texture than it does the valleys.

However, material removal - even in the most conducive leveling conditions possible with liquid polishes - will still be occurring at both a peak and valley level simultaneously. Thus, you will still be chasing the orange peel deeper as you attempt to level it, and removing more material than necessary if you wish to achieve a certain amount of leveling.

Think of it this way: contouring and leveling is a spectrum from 0-100%. At one extreme, you have the softest finishing pad, with the finest finishing polish, on a short-stroke, low-BP-RPM DA. This will remove material from the valleys and the peaks at as close to an equal rate as you can achieve. You could polish all day, and just chase the exact same texture you have deeper as you remove material. The advantage to this is that if you just want to remove light marring without 'wasting' a single tenth of a micron more than you need, you will get consistent material reduction across the profile of the paint, with next to none 'wasted' making it flatter. You'll also get a more consistent looking final finish on paint that is already craggy with orange peel, or on panels that are so tight and curvy, no rigid pad could even begin to adapt to them... On the other end of the spectrum, you have precision lapping film mounted on a tempered glass block. This will conform to nothing, and will leave a very uneven finish over curves (Faceting), and not begin to touch the valleys of the paint until the peaks have been leveled 100%. The advantage? In the right situation, you would achieve _true optical flatness_ with zero risk of chasing the texture of the paint deeper as you work.

Depending upon what block you use, how coarse a grade of paper you pick for your initial cut (Most people err on going too fine when removing peel, which is a mistake. Fine grit sandpapers will actually start to contour rather than level so much.) and your technique - even hand sanding with a neoprene block - does not have a true 100% leveling ratio.

The nice thing about approaching correction by imagining it as a balance of contouring and leveling, is that you have complete control to adapt to the situation. You can either roll with the punches, or press the attack on the paint until it is flat, or any combination thereof in between. If you've got the material to play with, and you're tackling deep defects, you can shift your contouring and leveling game a little closer to leveling to try to make the paint a little flatter (Which optically, is almost always better.). If you don't, you can try to shift it back the other way a bit, providing you don't go so far that you're actually contouring and chasing the _defects_ deeper, as well as the texture.

You also need to factor in material hardness and abrasion resistance... The longer it takes the abrasive to cut, the more chance it has to adapt to the surface profile, rather than cut through it. Using a thin microfiber pad on a long-throw DA with a suitable non-diminishing compound (Say, M110, M101, etc.), you'll notice a lot more orange peel leveling on a medium hardness paint than a rock-hard one. So even saying "Yes, thin MF pads with high BP RPM, long-throw, and an aggressive compound can level orange peel to a degree.", is going to be truer on some paints than others...

As a rule, sanding with as firm of a backing material as you can safely use is the safest and most efficient way of reducing peel without chasing it deeper and wasting material, irregardless the paint hardness... Assuming that orange peel reduction is your primary goal, rather than a mix of peel and defect reduction. You have to judge how extreme you can go in regards to paper grit (The coarser the scratches, the more material you have to remove to make it shiny again.), and how stiff you sanding block or interface is to adapt to panel contours.

That said, all of what I just wrote is theoretical... If we're talking about factory paints on modern cars, yes: most have _terrible_ orange peel that I have seen (Companies are starting to use more air-drying clears, and also are eliminating one of the primer layers for reasons of energy conservation and cost savings, so texture is becoming more extreme as a result.), to the point that one's ability to make them look nice through polishing is limited until it is addressed... However, most of the modern cars I've seen don't have the clear thickness to do a full or even sometimes partial OP removal without compromising the life of the clear severely, or even breaking into the basecoat sometimes. This is because the peel is actually in the primer, and just being magnified exponentially with every subsequent layer. Strangely, I see more BMW's with horrendous peel than Subaru's, or other more affordable cars these days.

Honestly, if we're still talking in conjecture, a lot of the modern cars I've seen really need a repaint out of the factory gates to make them look nice... :doublesho There's just no way to fix most of them safely with current CC thicknesses.

Being a detailer has never necessarily been about being a petrol-head or a car collector... If you're after detailing perfection, it doesn't always come new, from an expensive marque, or out of the factory. I used to see older Escorts that blew away contemporary Ferrari on this forum from a _detailing_ perspective. A divide is growing between 'Detailer's Car' and 'Modern Luxury'. At the moment, it feels like you pick one, or the other. Collector's don't always see the world as a detailer does, and detailer's don't necessarily have the ability to look past shoddy paintwork or trim on a car that is inherently more 'collectable'. As a detailer today, smart money is on buying something used and getting it repainted, and the trim replaced with the money you save by a good shop, and then putting the work in yourself, so you can make it look nice and still have many years of beauty left in the paint and materials. Too many modern cars out of the factory need more work than is advisable to make them look good in the eyes of a discerning owner or customer. Just my observation recently...

Hope this helps.

- Steampunk


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## Marcinzsosnowca (May 13, 2019)

Thanks Steampunk, this makes alot of sense. That's the answer I was looking for.
My goal was to remove swirls and holograms from customers car- peel decrease was side effect. I wasn't sure if It's really happening or is it only great improvement in clarity that tricks my mind.



pawlik said:


> In my practice, I saw this effect many times. BUT only if car was resprayed with cheap, low quality, soft (propably MS type) clear coat. Especially if using rotary with wool pad and heavy cutting compound. In this situations, orange peel was removed about 25-30%.


 That's exactly the case, paint job looked like it was done by 1st timer.


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