# Advice on lacquer...?



## The Z'eer (Nov 27, 2015)

Seeking some advice on 1K acrylic lacquer here.

Firstly the primer, base and lacquer are all 1K acrylic Simoniz aerosols.

The work so far:

Grey primer; four reasonably heavy coats left for 48 hours at room temp (22 degrees c) wet sanded with 800.

Base coat; gloss black. Five reasonably heavy coats, again 48 hours at room temp, wet sanded with 800, all orange peel removed then wet sanded with 1200 for a key for the lacquer.

Clear lacquer: Six heavy coats, once more with 48 hours to dry at room temp, wet sanded with 800, 1200, 2500, and finally 4000.

Finally Meguiar's Ultimate Compound then Meguiar's Ultimate Polish. Both applied with a very soft microfibre.

Looks pretty good...



...until direct sunlight lands on it 

The finish is full of hair line swirls/scratches, causing a nasty hazy look. It's definitely not any wet sand scratches, I proved this by rubbing the polish in straight lines and the miniscule scratches then appear in that direction.

The lacquer was applied on Monday, and my feeling is that it's not dried or cured properly. I believe it's not hard enough, it's very smooth to the touch but running your fingers across it and it's sort of tacky. Also, with medium pressure it's quite easy to make a fingernail mark.

I've used a hair drier at relative distance and for minute or so, the a faint smell of lacquer is present near the surface.

I would have gone the 2K route but I don't have an air fed mask. Has anyone else experienced problems like this with these Simoniz products and/or other 1K acrylic lacquer?

Thanks


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## Cookies (Dec 10, 2008)

Looks great chum. However I remember reading some of the pro body guys on here saying that you shouldn't sand the base before applying the lacquer. I'm sure some of those guys will be along to give you some detail. 

Cheers. 

Cooks


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## The Z'eer (Nov 27, 2015)

Cookies said:


> Looks great chum. However I remember reading some of the pro body guys on here saying that you shouldn't sand the base before applying the lacquer. I'm sure some of those guys will be along to give you some detail.
> 
> Cheers.
> 
> Cooks


The only way to apply the lacquer if you don't sand the base is before curing/drying begins otherwise a good chemical bond doesn't occur so I'm told. I'd allowed the base coat to dry, hence the need for a key. If not there's a good chance the lacquer would not have properly adhered, in the future it could peel/flake off. The swirls are definitely in the lacquer not base.

...but thanks for the comment  it does look good. On a cloudy day or under normal lighting conditions it looks very good...sunshine is another matter.


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## Cookies (Dec 10, 2008)

Yep - that's the very thing chum. I think it was @sicskate who said about laying down the lacquer over a wet base. I completely get your point about the key and at this point I'll have to declare myself out of my depth and defer to the professionals as I have just exhausted all bluff lol. 

It does look fantastic in the pic though for a rattle can job. 👍

Cooks


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## steveo3002 (Jan 30, 2006)

Cookies said:


> Looks great chum. However I remember reading some of the pro body guys on here saying that you shouldn't sand the base before applying the lacquer. I'm sure some of those guys will be along to give you some detail.
> 
> Cheers.
> 
> Cooks


yeah thats right

always get folk that steam in knowing it all then ask questions later though:lol:


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## Sicskate (Oct 3, 2012)

Yeah, as above. 

You shouldn't leave the base coat 48 hours and you shouldn't have sanded the base coat down. 

You can, but you'd need to put more base over the top. 

Also, the base coat will be dry within 20-30 minutes at room temperature, that's when you should decide to either add mode colour or start lacquering. 

Give it a quick key up and get your cans out again, no need for primer this time


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## REVERSiN (Sep 28, 2015)

Your problem is that a metallic paint can't be wet sanded to less than 1500 else your sand paper marks show up in sunlight.
After primer wet sand with 1500 the surface should be flawless then a base coat and several coats of clear.
It's just metallic paint since its not covering as much as a normal color would do due to pearl and flakes

Btw a lacquer should be sprayer within 10 minutes from base coat to bond.


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## The Z'eer (Nov 27, 2015)

Sicskate said:


> Yeah, as above.
> 
> You shouldn't leave the base coat 48 hours and you shouldn't have sanded the base coat down.
> 
> ...


If I wasn't to wet sand the base how was I too remove the orange peel? I can't see why wet sanding the base would affect the finish of the lacquer. The swirly like haze is in the top of the lacquer caused by the microfibres when polishing.


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## The Z'eer (Nov 27, 2015)

REVERSiN said:


> Your problem is that a metallic paint can't be wet sanded to less than 1500 else your sand paper marks show up in sunlight.
> After primer wet sand with 1500 the surface should be flawless then a base coat and several coats of clear.
> It's just metallic paint since its not covering as much as a normal color would do due to pearl and flakes
> 
> Btw a lacquer should be sprayer within 10 minutes from base coat to bond.


It's not metallic, it's gloss. No scratches via wet sanding the base are showing in the lacquer.


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## steveo3002 (Jan 30, 2006)

you dont need to remove average amounts of peel from basecoat , you sand the clear if need be 

dont try and re invent the wheel - thats how paint is done


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## The Z'eer (Nov 27, 2015)

Cookies said:


> Yep - that's the very thing chum. I think it was @sickskate who said about laying down the lacquer over a wet base. I completely get your point about the key and at this point I'll have to declare myself out of my depth and defer to the professionals as I have just exhausted all bluff lol.
> 
> It does look fantastic in the pic though for a rattle can job. 👍
> 
> Cooks


Thank you ...and thank the iPhone camera for being sympathetic


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## 4d_dc2 (Mar 28, 2008)

There is never any need to sand lacquer with 800. Start with 1500 then 2000 then polish


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## Sicskate (Oct 3, 2012)

Lots of good advice above.

As for the orange peel in the base, the lacquer will cover it.


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## steveo3002 (Jan 30, 2006)

why dont people ask before ? were all willing to help with the right way to do things


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## REVERSiN (Sep 28, 2015)

The Z'eer said:


> It's not metallic, it's gloss. No scratches via wet sanding the base are showing in the lacquer.


Mate gloss black. It's a base coat one coat or 2 is more than enough when you stop seeing the primer it's Basiclly done wait 10 minutes and lacquer it, you can't sand base coats ever! You will always have marks it's too fine especially black sorry I looked at the picture seemed metallic for some reason maybe lighting effect. Anyway if the base coat is fine just spray clear as clear coats and never makes changes to base coat of you sand the marks will stay in the base coat even if it's sanded with 3000 you just spray the clear and sand the clear to level it not the black base.

There are more primer types if you need to some are heavier and have a better filling ability they are none sanding primers basically you spray a coat leave it for 15 minutes to settle this way is will smooth the surface without orange perl and then you base coat it once or twice never more. And clear it all within 30 minutes and your piece is done, if you want layered clear just spray a few times. When you see the surface glossy but not too much wet it means the outer clear dried a bit and a second coat can be sprayed without having it run every where.


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## The Z'eer (Nov 27, 2015)

steveo3002 said:


> you dont need to remove average amounts of peel from basecoat , you sand the clear if need be
> 
> dont try and re invent the wheel - thats how paint is done


Ok, well via the internet I had heard heard that it's advisable to wet sand the base for orange peel removal. I'll experiment with the next piece.


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## steveo3002 (Jan 30, 2006)

look at some youtube vids where theres an adult painting a car with real equipment , most of the advice will apply to rattle cans

trouble with forums , is half of the advise is from these spotty kids you see skidding round tescos car park and they dont know their ar$e from thier elbow


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## The Z'eer (Nov 27, 2015)

4d_dc2 said:


> There is never any need to sand lacquer with 800. Start with 1500 then 2000 then polish


I actually started with 1200 and it was taking longer than it ought to. The 800 was fine, moving on to 1200 and upwards.


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## steveo3002 (Jan 30, 2006)

1200 and finer would be about right

also dont go finer than 800 on prep as you need a good key ...go too fine and its almost polished


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## The Z'eer (Nov 27, 2015)

steveo3002 said:


> look at some youtube vids where theres an adult painting a car with real equipment , most of the advice will apply to rattle cans
> 
> trouble with forums , is half of the advise is from these spotty kids you see skidding round tescos car park and they dont know their ar from thier elbow


http://www.classiccamaroclubuk.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=4741&start=10 Partly where I sourced the information from, I don't think these chaps are kids. The only skids are burnouts before the 1/4 mile


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## steveo3002 (Jan 30, 2006)

well find someone you trust and stick with it , no point in jumping from forum to forum and mixing it all up

ive been painting cars over 20 years and never known anyone to sand basecoat


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## The Z'eer (Nov 27, 2015)

steveo3002 said:


> well find someone you trust and stick with it , no point in jumping from forum to forum and mixing it all up
> 
> ive been painting cars over 20 years and never known anyone to sand basecoat


Ok, well I'll spray lacquer straight on to the base when the next part is ready. Even though I have wet sanded the base there's no scratches appearing through the lacquer. It's nasty hazy scratches that are appearing when I polish the surface, I'm pretty sure it's the microfibre that's causing them. I did spray heavy coats of the lacquer, didn't leave any longer than 10-15 mins between coats.

My concern is that although the wing mirror was lacquered on Monday it's still not properly hard. It's been indoors at circa 20 c since Monday, will it ever harden or will I need to begin the process all over again?


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## REVERSiN (Sep 28, 2015)

Basiclly two weeks I suggest for in those temps but you can turn a heat source beside it let it bake for about and hour it will eventually be ok but from what I know it's never suggested to polish clear until passed 2 weeks to let it settle and shrink as it can.


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## The Z'eer (Nov 27, 2015)

REVERSiN said:


> Basiclly two weeks I suggest for in those temps but you can turn a heat source beside it let it bake for about and hour it will eventually be ok but from what I know it's never suggested to polish clear until passed 2 weeks to let it settle and shrink as it can.


Ok, I'll give the heater a go and see if that works. I have heard it might shrink, hopefully it will dry out properly. Thanks for the information there


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## SamD (Oct 24, 2015)

steveo3002 said:


> look at some youtube vids where theres an adult painting a car with real equipment , most of the advice will apply to rattle cans
> 
> trouble with forums , is half of the advise is from these spotty kids you see skidding round tescos car park and they dont know their ar from thier elbow


Tickled me :lol::lol:


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## squiggs (Oct 19, 2009)

REVERSiN said:


> Your problem is that a metallic paint can't be wet sanded to less than 1500 else your sand paper marks show up in sunlight.


Metallic paint can't be wet sanded!!!!!!!
Full stop!
The end!

Paint shouldn't be sanded (unless it's a 2k flat direct gloss)

I think the OPs problem may be - many layers of lacquer and insufficient time to allow them all to harden before polishing.


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## steveo3002 (Jan 30, 2006)

squiggs said:


> Metallic paint can't be wet sanded!!!!!!!
> Full stop!
> The end!


but but but a man on the internet sez...


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## Harry_p (Mar 18, 2015)

I've had to sand basecoat where I've got dirt or a bug in it, but always done another coat over then not touched it before lacquer.

I do find with aerosol lacquer you can let the basecoat dry for quite a long time before lacquer, not so much on solids but with metallics it's very easy to re-wet the basecoat with the solvents in the lacquer and get patches in the colour. I've never ever had aerosol lacquer peel from the basecoat even left for days before lacquering.

It can also take way way longer than you expect to fully harden. Touch dry after a few hours maybe, but it's really only skinning over and can stay soft for weeks.

I usually do a light compound then use a mild filler polish like AG Sep just for an acceptable initial finish knowing I'll probably have to revisit it in a month or so.


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## REVERSiN (Sep 28, 2015)

Agreed it takes longer without baking the clear coat so you need to give it either more time or just a little heat. I have had a project two years ago was a ****ty motorcycle job done so bad you couldn't possibly imagine. I have photos and suspected it was a can spray job though some have good results this was rather on the bad - bad - bad job lol here are so a photos.
This is an example of multiple colors sprays on one piece where you must sand to remove edges no matter how you mask part of the colors are red chillie and a silver paint with metallic dark blue


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## Benn (Aug 22, 2007)

I know its been said. But ill say it too.

You never sand base coat.

Base isnt left to dry, thats where the adeashion(sp) comes from.
Soon as you sand it the sanding marks will show up. If you get bits in it, sand it and re-base it.
Orange peel will be smoothed/hidden by the lacquer when you spray that. It smooths the surface of the base coat.

Thats where your issue is coming from. Even tho it looks like youve got a fantastic finish.

Base wise, 20mins should he enough time for it to air dry. As long as it isnt to cold.


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## 3gdean (Jun 18, 2011)

think we are all focusing on the wrong point, sanded base or not, the scratches are on the clear:

due to needing longer cure time (for the amount you added)

1k will always be way way softer than 2k, and you may still have issues with marring

i would say too much primer and basecoat was used also, even though they may be dry and sandable, you could have probably stuck your nail into those 2 coats aswell.

until the lacquer process you want the bare minimum of products, minimal primer to cover repair to be sanded, minimal base, as long as it is covered and not patchy for better cure times and less issue, gassing,skinning over...
even with lacquer 2/3 tops, if u want it "better" cure/sand re-lacquer.

americans painting...


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## Benn (Aug 22, 2007)

Re reading the first post.

Why are you sanding the lacquer with 800? There is no need.

You want 1200 min really as thats "finishing" paper. You really dont want to be using "sand" paper so to speak.

12k, then 15k then 2k will do the job just fine and you'll get less sanding marks.


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