# First Wash after winter prep - are my exceptions to much



## bigboyq (Sep 13, 2014)

Hi,

I purchased the car with super-guard - but never again

Since then I have given the car some preparation for winter, with an couple of coats of Britemax - Vantage Paste Wax, and jetseal 109.

*However this was the state of the car:-
*


20141130-095802-2 by BigBoyQ, on Flickr





*So it needed an clean, and wanted to test my preperation:*

*So I gave the car its normal Bath with Chemical Guys No Touch with warm water - and to be honest not impressed - 10 minute dwell

Iam I asking to much of the pre-wash to take more dirt away?*







*So gave it an good jetwash*





*Then it was wash - had to clean the mitt quite a few times!*



*End result*


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## Blueberry (Aug 10, 2007)

People expect snow foam to be a kind of supernatural product that will clean your car just like that. It won't. It's the power washing down, from the bottom working upwards, that should be used in conjunction with the snow foam. You need to spend a good 5 minutes using the snow foam that remains on the car to clean the worst dirty areas of the car when power washing down. It shouldn't be just a quick last and done. The two work in unison.


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## Blueberry (Aug 10, 2007)

The finished car looks great by the way 👍


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## Soul boy 68 (Sep 8, 2013)

As above. But also add a citrus based pre wash first then a good PW before snow foaming, I recommen AF Avalaunch. Mind you the BMW looks good so if you improve on your technique's then all the better.


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## cossiecol (Jun 29, 2014)

I've not had much issues with the maintenance clean. My car was FILTHY (hard to tell it was meant to be white!) I've got the car coated in 109, then 2 coats of 476s, followed by 2 coats of C2v3. 

Cirtus pre-wash then jet wash rinse.
Angelwax Fast Foam (wait 10mins) jet wash rinse
About 95% of all dirt came off.

Even with the above my rinse bucket was still really dirty after the hand wash.

Just remember it's winter. our beloved car will get dirty  The fun is cleaning them up.


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## great gonzo (Nov 4, 2010)

Looks to me as the "No touch" worked wonders. 
Gonz.


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## Dougnorwich (Jun 27, 2014)

I like the cg no touch to be honest.....I'd buy it again anyway


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## nog (Jul 14, 2013)

Blueberry said:


> People expect snow foam to be a kind of supernatural product that will clean your car just like that. It won't. It's the power washing down, *from the bottom working upwards*, that should be used in conjunction with the snow foam. You need to spend a good 5 minutes using the snow foam that remains on the car to clean the worst dirty areas of the car when power washing down. It shouldn't be just a quick last and done. The two work in unison.


My bold above, new to all this but thought it was top and work down?


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## svended (Oct 7, 2011)

nog said:


> My bold above, new to all this but thought it was top and work down?


Pressure wash and rinse from the bottom up then thorough rinse but 2bm from the top down.


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## Yellow Dave (Apr 5, 2011)

Am I right in understanding you don't think the car should be as dirty as it was because it had been protected? It's still going to get filthy, just not quite as bad as an unprotected car. And a snow foam and pressure rinse is never going to be a touchless wash regardless of what product you use. You will always need to physically touch and wash it. The difference is the wash should be very simple and effortless with all the grime coming off nice and easy and the car looking just as good once you've finished as it did when you originally protected it

Also you should be cleaning and rinsing the dirt out of the mit regularly


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## bigboyq (Sep 13, 2014)

Yellow Dave said:


> Am I right in understanding you don't think the car should be as dirty as it was because it had been protected? It's still going to get filthy, just not quite as bad as an unprotected car. And a snow foam and pressure rinse is never going to be a touchless wash regardless of what product you use. You will always need to physically touch and wash it. The difference is the wash should be very simple and effortless with all the grime coming off nice and easy and the car looking just as good once you've finished as it did when you originally protected it
> 
> Also you should be cleaning and rinsing the dirt out of the mit regularly


What I was not happy with was the performance of CG NT - as I thought it would have an greater impact in removing the grime. As it did remove any grime whilst dwelling.

Other posts saying I should use an citrus is this before CG NT or instead?

I also washed the mit after every panel

As I am very much an newbie to detailing


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## Soul boy 68 (Sep 8, 2013)

bigboyq said:


> What I was not happy with was the performance of CG NT - as I thought it would have an greater impact in removing the grime. As it did remove any grime whilst dwelling.
> 
> Other posts saying I should use an citrus is this before CG NT or instead?
> 
> ...


Apply a Citrus pre wash first, VP citrus pre wash is very popular among members on here, let that dwell for a few minutes then PW off and after apply your snow foam and let that dwell also for a few minutes before a good PW off. All this pre wash will get most of the thicker muck off the car and in most cases only leave a thin layer of traffic film, this pre wash will never completely clean your car but will prepare it for a much safer low risk hand wash via 2BM.


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## B17BLG (Jun 26, 2012)

Are you expecting to much?

Yes

Should you be happy with your end results?

Yes

As Yellow Dave mentioned, there isn't a no touch option, more damage limitation.

We just do as much as we can to reduce the amount of contact with the car itself, but it is a contact sport I'm afraid.


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## hulla the hulla (May 20, 2009)

svended said:


> Pressure wash and rinse from the bottom up then thorough rinse but 2bm from the top down.


what's the logic behind this please (the PW bit, I understand the 2BM top down bit) - genuinely interested as I've always PW'd top down too ?


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## roscopervis (Aug 22, 2006)

hulla the hulla said:


> what's the logic behind this please (the PW bit, I understand the 2BM top down bit) - genuinely interested as I've always PW'd top down too ?


That way, more soap suds fall down the sides after it has already been rinsed once on the panels that get the dirtiest so you get more soap in contact with the panels offering the most soap in contact with dirt contact time...if that makes sense.


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## LEE5336 (Sep 26, 2009)

+1 citrus pre wash first through sprayer.


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## bigboyq (Sep 13, 2014)

*update - citrus with no touch*

Well tried some VP citrus 100ml and no touch 100 - as i needed to do an quick wash

I did the above and single application - and no touching the car - did both cars in 30 minutes





Question:
I understand the preferred method is 
1) citrus Pre wash
2) Jetwash off 
3) Snow Foam

However, my experience foaming after jet washing foam does not cling? so is it losing its effectiveness - hence adding Citrus with snow foam as an one stage process.

advise please


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## Lowiepete (Mar 29, 2009)

*A Word of Caution*

Hello Folks,

When I see some of the responses to threads like these, my heart sinks. Let
me start with a question. When correcting your paint, what should your basic
mantra be? Is it by any chance that you start with the least abrasive and 
work upwards?

So, why should it be any different with washing? I firmly believe that it should
follow the same mantra. The idea of going straight in with a citrus wash may
_not_ be the best idea. Also, which would you believe first, the guff put out
by the marketeers, or the information posted by the guys who test products?

If it's the former, then this post won't be at all useful! However, it seems that
for winter protection people go for a bomb-proof wax, namely Collinite 476S.
If you read the marketers' blurb, it'll withstand almost anything in terms of
cleaning, the biggest boast being that it's detergent proof. However, is it?

At this point, I'll invite you to do your own research, because the Achilles
Heel of that wax is: citrus based cleaners. I, for one, do _not_ believe the
marketers when it comes to claims that citrus based wash products are wax
friendly. What I do believe is that snowfoam is just a big-boy's toy, with very
limited use outside of the HGV scene. I'll also stick with my mantra of using
only the gentlest of products as my first go-to.

The OP is correct in his expectations of a protected car being easier to clean.
It's just a case of using a proper shampoo, with possibly an equally gentle 
product to use as a pre-spray as the first step. I'm posting this because 
getting to a protected car is the result of a lot of hard work. Why compromise
that by using over-egged products in the maintenance follow-up?

With Season's Greetings,
Steve


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## GleemSpray (Jan 26, 2014)

Lowiepete said:


> Hello Folks,
> 
> When I see some of the responses to threads like these, my heart sinks. Let
> me start with a question. When correcting your paint, what should your basic
> ...


interesting comments Steve.

I am fairly new to using much beyond shampoo / polish / waxs on cars and for this Winter am trying something a little different.

I haven't put on any fresh wax since end of August, but am instead going to wash the car with gentle shampoo (AG BSC) regularly whenever possible and use spray wax ( AG Express Wax ) as a top up. I have various TFR / Snow foam type pre-cleaners and they will be used sparingly as needed and then the spray wax will be used afresh on top as protection / drying aid.

Am doing this because last winter I prepped the car ( actually I bought it in October, so it timed nicely ) and then spent a lot of time agonising about whether the regular washing with chemicals was wearing away the LSP ( AG EGP over SRP ) so this time I will just wash and top-up as often as I can and see how that pans out.

Millions of cars get through Winter with naked paint, so regular spray wax should protect more than enough I guess ?

Or is this a bad move ?


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## Yellow Dave (Apr 5, 2011)

If used correctly and at sensible dilutions a snow foam or citrus pre wash will not have a detrimental affect on your chosen wax or sealant, whilst still aiding your cleaning process before physically touching the paint. I used colli 476 for many years with VP citrus pre wash and never found it to have a negative affect or cause premature failure

I agree with you to some degree Steve, but not fully


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## KarateKid (Oct 13, 2014)

bigboyq said:


> Well tried some VP citrus 100ml and no touch 100 - as i needed to do an quick wash
> 
> I did the above and single application - and no touching the car - did both cars in 30 minutes


That is some seriously impressive no-touch cleaning results right there! :thumb:


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## Lowiepete (Mar 29, 2009)

Yellow Dave said:


> I used colli 476 for many years with VP citrus pre wash and never found it to have a negative affect or cause premature failure


Dave,

Like I said, do your research. That particular wax shows very distinctly the
dichotomy between the claims of the marketeers and the brutal reality of the 
testers. By its very nature, citrus wash is _not_ at the starting end of the 
scale. There are far better alternatives, especially in winter, when what you 
really want is something that will nourish the finish, rather than degrade it
almost as badly as the dirt does.

Citrus washes contain a very common cleaning compound, Limonene. Among
its many uses, it's a natural degreaser and oil dissolving agent. So, on oily
waxes, citrus based cleaners can do nothing but degrade the protection.



Collinite 476S Tech Sheet said:


> To further maintain the look and durability of the waxed finish between wax
> applications, use a car wash soap that is pH neutral and gentle on the paint
> with *no grease-cutting properties*. Avoid heavy detergents or low-grade soaps.


Sorry, but you can't have it both ways...

With Season's Greetings,
Steve


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## Lowiepete (Mar 29, 2009)

GleemSpray said:


> Millions of cars get through Winter with naked paint, so regular spray wax should protect more than enough I guess ?
> 
> Or is this a bad move ?


The bad move in winter is in not taking care with your drying. More damage is
done at the drying stage than at any other time. Many councils now mix 
molasses with their salt to make it stick to the road for longer, with obvious
consequences.

The inevitable combination of that and traffic film creates a substance almost
like grease, hence the apparent success of citrus products. Limonene will
happily dissolve industrial molasses, but that does come at the expense of
degrading the protection as I've outlined in the post above.

Anyone who has followed my posts in the Disabled Detailing thread will know
that I always advocate gentle methods, almost without exception. In that
quest, I remain to be beaten. A touchless wash, by its very nature, will not 
be gentle, despite no physical wiping!

The idea that a chemical dissolve of the dirt won't affect the wax is pure 
fantasy! Inventing a wax that can withstand that, is what I would imagine
_the_ holy grail to be. So, physical wiping is still a necessity. It's the physics 
of traffic film that dictate this, not my opinion!

If I were to bucket wash, I would go for a nourishing shampoo using a fine
pre-spray to help overcome the surface-tension. I would then use a good 
drying aid so that as little damage as possible is done during the drying stage.
Preferably use a product where the final wipe completely avoids using a _dry_
MF towel touching the paint.

A product like Serious Performance Show Detailer, diluted @ 2:1 or ADS
Nano Gloss Paint Sealant (NGPS) @ 3:1 make ideal winter drying aids. There's
something quite satisfying watching a product evaporate to leave a spot-free
finish, even if takes a while in the chilly weather.

Applying a spray wax is fine, as long as you can be certain the surface is 
free of salt. Optimum Spray Wax and the Serious Performance liquid spray
waxes are superb products. You could also use a top-up QD like ADS NGPS
either neat or @ 2:1 dilution.

With Season's Greetings,
Steve


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## Franzpan (Mar 2, 2009)

I don't get this citrus pre wash malarky...

Surely if the detergent you use for foaming is at all good then there is no need for another detergent before that?

Or if the citrus detergent is better then why use the other at all?


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## Lowiepete (Mar 29, 2009)

^^^^ it shows the power of marketing hype.
I have often wondered the same thing

With Season's Greetings,
Steve


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## Yellow Dave (Apr 5, 2011)

Steve, you appear to have not read my post fully, so will highlight it for you



Yellow Dave said:


> If used correctly and at sensible dilutions a snow foam or citrus pre wash will not have a detrimental affect on your chosen wax or sealant, whilst still aiding your cleaning process before physically touching the paint. *I used colli 476 for many years with VP citrus pre wash and never found it to have a negative affect or cause premature failure*
> 
> I agree with you to some degree Steve, but not fully


I'm well aware of the degreasing nature, but as said used in moderation it can safely aid your washing technique without shortening any durability or performance. This is from my own real life testing, not reading marketing, product test sheets or other users reviews.

I also do not really see any benefit in using both a pre wash and snow foam. I'm of the opinion it's either one or the other. Some people believe they can get away with a touchless wash which in reality is hoping for a little too much. But what they do significantly do is help break the bond and soften that dirt making your physical wash all that much safer which can only be a positive

And in the grand scheme of things, not that I agree that all these products will have a negative affect, but even if they do, I would rather re protect my paintwork a month or two earlier than normal, than inflict more damage to the paint and spend more time correcting and removing more clear coat For example. I would have stopped instantly from using a pre wax cleanser if the pad was showing as much dirt as in your test. I am a strong believer in the abilities of paint cleansers but have never ever had a pad come out with as much dirt on as in your test.


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## Lowiepete (Mar 29, 2009)

Dave, I'll explain my reasoning. Back in the day, it seems like a long while now,
Alfred made a comment about using the ADS Clay Cloth, clearly suggesting
to _avoid_ using strong citrus-based cleaners. OK, so he used _strong_, but 
this set me thinking; what harm is there in these naturally sourced cleaners?

The answer actually became quite frightening! I'm not exaggerating here, simply
because it was compared to chemicals like methyl-ethyl-keytone (MEK) :doublesho

As an historic user of MEK, I would never under-estimate its hidden power! It
will readily dissolve and weld several plastics, among its many other cleaning
and solvent qualities. OK, so Alfred said strong, but I'm not convinced by any
marketing claims that Limonene at any _effective_ dilution _is_ safe with _all_ 
waxes. Collinite (who are almost uniquely are very clear about their products) 
have identified this as a problem. 

MEK is not the only chemical that Limonene can replace! I've only identified
that one; heaven knows how scary the others could potentially be. I'm firm
in being warned-off by the MEK comparison all by itself.

My point of entry into this thread was to make the point that citrus-based 
cleaners are _not_ the entry point for solving the OP's questions. I stand very
firmly by that belief, and I have made positive suggestions toward possible
solutions. I've used Collinite 476S fairly regularly, especially on non-metallic
paints, though I've never used citrus based cleaners on it. I'm now pretty 
certain that I'm not in the market for such a product. 

I grade citrus cleaners as a possible must-have in serious decontamination
scenarios, but in a maintenance regime, use with care, being aware of the
possibilities of degrading your protection. Just because it's a renewable and
common solution should not give any sense of safety or suitability.

As for what the pre-wax cleaners removed, the car _was_ clearly identified
as a neglected farm workhorse. However, I have found similar results on cars
not quite as neglected, so I didn't find them unique, which was why I used
the comparison photo.

I don't have any axe to grind. I'm just as passionate about others looking 
after their paint as I am on my own cars. There's a lot to be said in finding
the gentlest methods first. It's far too easy to get carried away on a wave of
popularity, forgetting the basic approaches to our goals in the process.

With Season's Greetings,
Steve


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## RAR219 (Dec 7, 2014)

That no touch looks like it works well IMO! What kind of power washers are you guys using?


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## andystevens (Dec 12, 2011)

Soul boy 68 said:


> As above. But also add a citrus based pre wash first then a good PW before snow foaming, I recommen AF Avalaunch. Mind you the BMW looks good so if you improve on your technique's then all the better.


I thought Pre Wash & Snow Foam were much the same. Why a pre wash first & what is the best way to apply that & which one? Never really done the pre wash thing to be honest.


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## m500dpp (Feb 17, 2006)

Just to add a quick thought, IMHO the pressure washer is doing more cleaning than the snow foam..........I only use a hose pipe on the body, the pressure washer for me is wheel arches mainly. 

Everyone has developed their own regime that works for them, mine is to use a superspray with concentrated shampoo mix to pre wash then use the mit and bucket of shampoo to complete the job. I am now going to start using the 2BM which I havnt in the past, things evolve as you experience builds. For me the touchless dream is just that!


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## pantypoos (Aug 7, 2014)

Lowiepete said:


> A product like Serious Performance Show Detailer, diluted @ 2:1 or ADS
> Nano Gloss Paint Sealant (NGPS) @ 3:1 make ideal winter drying aids. There's
> something quite satisfying watching a product evaporate to leave a spot-free
> finish, even if takes a while in the chilly weather.


Hi Steve,

Sorry this is a little off topic, but it is relation to what you said.

I have recently purchased a bottle of SP Show Detailer and would like to use it as a drying aid.

When you use it as a drying aid do you spray it on and leave it to evaporate or do you apply it then wipe over and let it evaporate?

Thanks

(and sorry for going off topic)


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