# Insurance holding me to ransom



## Hereisphilly

Venting my anger here, although there isnt much I can do I don't think

Moved into our new house at the weekend, and of course duly notified Adrian Flux of the move, only to be told my premium had gone up by £145! 

My premium for this year was £536, so as a percentage for only 8 more months of the year, this is massive

I could understand if I was moving to crime central, but we've moved from a town house to a quiet estate that's alot nicer, but it's less than 800 yards away, in the same town and has the same front part of the postcode

The car is also now being kept on the driveway as opposed to on a public road, yet they still insist on charging me so much

If I cancel I'll only get £230 back, and then have to stump up for a new policy elsewhere, and lose 4 months of ncd contribution

It feels like I'm being put over a barrel with nowhere to go, and the line from the Adrian flux is "it's our underwriters, nothing we can do, different area rating"



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## Cookies

Sounds to me as if Adrian Flex are being incredibly lazy, Phil. They should have had a very honest and frank conversation with the underwriters before even providing you with an increase of that magnitude. Underwriters simply apply a set of generic riles to policies, however, in my experience, if your broker has a chat with them and discusses the circumstances, I'd imagine something could be done to reduce that. 

Classic example of 'computer says no!' 

Get back to them and ask them to refer back to the underwriters. 

Cooks 

Sent from my D6603


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## Hereisphilly

Cookies said:


> Sounds to me as if Adrian Flex are being incredibly lazy, Phil. They should have had a very honest and frank conversation with the underwriters before even providing you with an increase of that magnitude. Underwriters simply apply a set of generic riles to policies, however, in my experience, if your broker has a chat with them and discusses the circumstances, I'd imagine something could be done to reduce that.
> 
> Classic example of 'computer says no!'
> 
> Get back to them and ask them to refer back to the underwriters.
> 
> Cooks
> 
> Sent from my D6603


Thanks mate, I've got untill the end of the day today to decide what I want to do, they gave me this quote on Saturday

So you recon it's worth giving them a ring and asking them to go back to the underwriters?

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## steveo3002

parking on the road often makes it cheaper strangley enough


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## Hereisphilly

steveo3002 said:


> parking on the road often makes it cheaper strangley enough


Oh really? I'd have thought on the driveway means less chance of a passing motorist knocking the car, and a theft risk would be similar as its basically next to my house

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## shycho

Problem is, if it's on a drive way. They know exactly which house to break into to get the keys.


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## Mcpx

When my wife changed her car recently I thought I'd be quids in in the insurance. She went from a 1.6 petrol Mini to a 1.6 diesel Peugeot, but when I rang to swap over they told me that the remaining 3 months of my policy would be almost to the penny double what I was already paying! Of course I protested but they claimed that because it was a change to the policy mid-term there was nothing they could do, even though they have done before in several occasions. 

They advised that if I cancelled the existing policy I would have to pay a £45 fee (less than I thought!) but that they may be able to give me a more competitive quote for a new policy and if I took that, they would waive the admin charge. So I spent another 10 minutes going through all of the details again that hadn't changed and they came back with a quote of over £1K, still more than double what we were paying for the Mini!!

I paid the admin fee purely on principle and used Gocompare to switch to the AA for under £600.

Have you looked at any alternative cover to see how it compares? If the competition is significantly more expensive then you'd be better off where you are, but if you could get a cheaper quote that would be an excellent bargaining tool to use with your current insurer. As always the key is to shop around and more so with insurance than anything else.


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## tightlines

i had a similar experience to you Mcpx changed from a Mini JCW 2.0 to a 1.5 diesel Qashqai got some online quotes they came back about £200 cheaper phoned my insurance company they wanted 26p extra a month plus admin fee,It would of cost me £75 to cancel in the end they waived the admin fee.so come June i wont be going again with then


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## DrEskimo

When I moved from my flat with private car park to my house with off street parking within the same town, I think it went up by £9...

However, car insurance has gone up quite substantially recently. My renewal was £600, double what I currently pay. Price comparison sites wasnt getting me much cheaper. By taking Miss Eskimo off the policy and reducing my mileage, I managed to keep it to the same price.


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## Cookies

Hereisphilly said:


> Thanks mate, I've got untill the end of the day today to decide what I want to do, they gave me this quote on Saturday
> 
> So you recon it's worth giving them a ring and asking them to go back to the underwriters?
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


I definitely would. I've a good friend who arranges all my insurance, and he has done this for me before when a company refused point blank to cover any modifications. After a quick call to discuss and explain, they were covered. Sometimes the underwriters don't understand the circumstances, and simply make a decision bases on the postcode.

It's worth a try anyway chum. Give it a go. If it doesn't work, take your business elsewhere.

Cooks

Sent from my D6603


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## Shiny

Sadly rating areas are rating areas and these are fixed. These days they are split by sector, so SN1 1AA could be different to SN1 2AA.

It is done on statistics and claims data, so moving from a town house to a quiet estate would not make a difference to the insurers if you move to a higher rated area, even if the area appears nicer.

Asking the insurers to reconsider is unlikely to make a difference, although there is no harm in asking. If you change from a Group 10 to a Group 15 car, the premium will be higher, despite it maybe being newer, with better security and safety features. It is still going from a group 10 to a group 15 car so the insurers are unable to change this, the premium will be rated on a group 15 car. The post code rating is the same, going from say area 4 to area 5 will generate an additional premium, regardless of the appearance of the neighbourhood.

I'm of the opinion that a car is safer on your drive than on the road, but as mentioned above, some insurers do charge more if it is on your drive as targetted theft is possibly the most common form of theft these days.

You'll have to weigh up the cost of cancellation/a new policy against paying the additional premium and see what's best. But from the looks of things, cancelling will mean the previous 4 months have cost you £300, which is circa £125 more than pro-rata so will need to be factored in.

Unfortunately as harsh as this may sound, the rating factors have changed since the policy was taken out and the Insurers are asking for the difference in premium to be paid. If you are not happy with the premium, then you do have the choice to cancel the policy, subject the cancellation charges which you were made aware of and agreed to when the policy was taken out. They aren't really holding you to ransom.


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## Hereisphilly

Shiny said:


> Sadly rating areas are rating areas and these are fixed. These days they are split by sector, so SN1 1AA could be different to SN1 2AA.
> 
> It is done on statistics and claims data, so moving from a town house to a quiet estate would not make a difference to the insurers if you move to a higher rated area, even if the area appears nicer.
> 
> Asking the insurers to reconsider is unlikely to make a difference, although there is no harm in asking. If you change from a Group 10 to a Group 15 car, the premium will be higher, despite it maybe being newer, with better security and safety features. It is still going from a group 10 to a group 15 car so the insurers are unable to change this, the premium will be rated on a group 15 car. The post code rating is the same, going from say area 4 to area 5 will generate an additional premium, regardless of the appearance of the neighbourhood.
> 
> I'm of the opinion that a car is safer on your drive than on the road, but as mentioned above, some insurers do charge more if it is on your drive as targetted theft is possibly the most common form of theft these days.
> 
> You'll have to weigh up the cost of cancellation/a new policy against paying the additional premium and see what's best. But from the looks of things, cancelling will mean the previous 4 months have cost you £300, which is circa £125 more than pro-rata so will need to be factored in.
> 
> Unfortunately as harsh as this may sound, the rating factors have changed since the policy was taken out and the Insurers are asking for the difference in premium to be paid. If you are not happy with the premium, then you do have the choice to cancel the policy, subject the cancellation charges which you were made aware of and agreed to when the policy was taken out. They aren't really holding you to ransom.


Thanks for that, it's a useful insight into how this all works, i get how the car rating thing works as although it may be newer and safer, it inevitably costs more to repair / replace, which in turn puts my premium up

They may not be actually holding me to ransom, but it sure feels like it!

I don't really want to have to cancel, as that will put me out of sync with when I change the car in Nov, and potentially get stung for a car change mid term

Looks like I'll have to ring em, see if they can re-look at it, and then just suck it up

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## cossiecol

Have a look on TopCashback, I saved a load on the insurance which would make changing companies possibly worth it to get one over on them


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## Shiny

Hereisphilly said:


> Thanks for that, it's a useful insight into how this all works, i get how the car rating thing works as although it may be newer and safer, it inevitably costs more to repair / replace, which in turn puts my premium up
> 
> They may not be actually holding me to ransom, but it sure feels like it!
> 
> I don't really want to have to cancel, as that will put me out of sync with when I change the car in Nov, and potentially get stung for a car change mid term
> 
> Looks like I'll have to ring em, see if they can re-look at it, and then just suck it up
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


As i mentioned, there's no harm in asking, you may find there is a sympathetic underwriter who is prepared to reduce the premium a bit, but in all honesty i think it will be unlikely.

In simple terms, let's say you get a new annual quote elsewhere for £500 based on the new postcode (which is unlikely as this is less than what you are currently paying, but a starting point).

Additional premium with existing insurers is £145 /8 months to run = £18.13 per month.

New annual premium £500 less return premium of £230 from cancelled policy = £270 /12 = £22.50 per month

So even if you get a new annual quote of £500, you are still £4.37 a month better off by staying where you are. The cancellation charges are making it better to stay than change. Plus you will gain an extra year's NCB 4 month's earlier, although this isn't a massive factor, but it helps.

Hope this helps. :thumb:


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## Darlofan

Get on the comparison sites and work out whether itll be cheaper to move. As you stated they have you over a barrel if you change anything mid term. As shiny said above you might save a few quid a month staying where you are, personally for that saving I'd cancel it and move. Cancelling the policy will encourage them to reduce your premium.


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## Brian1612

Hear this a lot about Adrian Flux. Always the same story of them being a nightmare to change a policy mid way through it.


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## BTS

That seems very excessive.

I recently did this and my Mrs had no admin charge or increase on her policy and I had to pay £12 increase in premium. I know it all depends on circumstances but that seems crazy.

They also told me on the phone that apparently one factor in a nicer area is that there are 'better' cars around so if you have an accident, they will cost more to repair. Not sure if that is true or not! 

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## Shiny

BTS said:


> They also told me on the phone that apparently one factor in a nicer area is that there are 'better' cars around so if you have an accident, they will cost more to repair. Not sure if that is true or not!


I can see the thinking behind this, but it is all worked out by actuaries using claims statistics (frequency, cost etc) per postcode sector to assess profitability and loss ratios.

The insurers won't differentiate between nicer cars and not so nice cars. Also, just because one car is nicer than another doesn't always mean it will cost more to repair.


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## BTS

Shiny said:


> I can see the thinking behind this, but it is all worked out by actuaries using claims statistics (frequency, cost etc) per postcode sector to assess profitability and loss ratios.
> 
> The insurers won't differentiate between nicer cars and not so nice cars. Also, just because one car is nicer than another doesn't always mean it will cost more to repair.


That's interesting to know. Thank you for the reply.

I have a friend who is an actuary. Sounds a confusing job!

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## uggski

It's weird because i am highly unlikely to have an accident in the area I live so the stats don't really add up.


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## DrEskimo

BTS said:


> That's interesting to know. Thank you for the reply.
> 
> I have a friend who is an actuary. Sounds a confusing job!
> 
> Sent from my LG-H850 using Tapatalk


I've had job offers from insurance companies, but never even given it a second thought, as it sounds pretty dull...(no offence Shiny...!)!

Would be interested to hear the statistical approaches they adopt though...



uggski said:


> It's weird because i am highly unlikely to have an accident in the area I live so the stats don't really add up.


Highly unlikely based on what and according to who exactly...?


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## Shiny

BTS said:


> That's interesting to know. Thank you for the reply.
> 
> I have a friend who is an actuary. Sounds a confusing job!


Good use for a math's degree and normally a very good salary too :thumb:



uggski said:


> It's weird because i am highly unlikely to have an accident in the area I live so the stats don't really add up.


It's not just the likelihood, but also the costs involved, from repair, to replacement hire vehicles to injury claims.

Population density increases the likelihood of a claim and people in certain areas are statistically more likely to make a person injury claim that in other areas. The labour rate of a garage in central london will be considerably more than the abour rate of a garage in a rural area of Scotland.

More bad new today, the government have cut the discount rate on the Ogden Scales (injury claims) from 2.5% to minus 0.75%, so this is going to have a big affect on motor & small business insurance premiums as it will cost the insurers millions more in claims costs and have a massive effect on their current claims reserves.

A lot of insurers had anticipated a 1% cut in the rate and premiums have been gradually rising recently as a result of this, but the cut of 3.25 to minus .75% was well above expaectations and is going to have quite an impact on future premiums.


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## macca666

I had a similar where I changed car 2 month into my new policy. They wanted an extra £140 for the rest of the year which wouldve been a dearer annual premium than any I'd paid for about the past 15 year. I've no claims made since I've been driving for the past 26 year now so wasn't bothered about not getting my years no claim as I had about 18 year anyway.

I did some price comparison checks and could get a years insurance for £20 cheaper than my current policy (bizarrely with my current insurers) and ended up being advised by them to cancel my current policy with them and take out a new one and they'd give me the cheaper price.

Still can't fully work it out :wall::wall:


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## percymon

Well i'm changing cars next weekend, and current insurer won;t cover the new car (because its an EV !). they are already refunding my policy without cancellation fee, with cover set to expire Sunday night.

I can't say fairer than that (Co-op Eco insurance) - just need to find an alternative now.

They're not all bad companies.


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## DrEskimo

percymon said:


> Well i'm changing cars next weekend, and current insurer won;t cover the new car (because its an EV !). they are already refunding my policy without cancellation fee, with cover set to expire Sunday night.
> 
> I can't say fairer than that (Co-op Eco insurance) - just need to find an alternative now.
> 
> They're not all bad companies.


Co-Op ECO insurance won't cover an EV....? Please say you pointed out the irony...!


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## Shiny

DrEskimo said:


> I've had job offers from insurance companies, but never even given it a second thought, as it sounds pretty dull...(no offence Shiny...!)!
> 
> Would be interested to hear the statistical approaches they adopt though...


I've done high street Broking since i was sixteen, so for 31 years 

To be fair, i still really enjoy it, in the same day you can be asked to insure a sex shop to someone repairing the underground sewers in a disused nucleur power plant, so it certainly is varied. I love the different range of customers i have from builders and motor trader to multi-millionaires and i do tend to natter a bit. love speaking to my valeting & detailing customers too.

I still get a buzz from someone taking a policy and it doesn't matter if it is an £80 liability policy or a £20k fleet. Some days are a bit repetitive and being on hold to insurers for hours on end doesn't help, but all in all it ain't a bad career.

I couldn't cope with the corporate BS that goes on many places and all the corporate acronyms, so i think i'd struggle to work for anyone other msyself these days.

Insurance acturaries are still in big demand, although these days it is more of a programming job than it was in the good old days. An extract of a large paper on fleet insurance calculations from the 70's...


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## Shiny

percymon said:


> Well i'm changing cars next weekend, and current insurer won;t cover the new car (because its an EV !). they are already refunding my policy without cancellation fee, with cover set to expire Sunday night.
> 
> I can't say fairer than that (Co-op Eco insurance) - just need to find an alternative now.
> 
> They're not all bad companies.


If cancellation is at the insurer's request (i.e. in this case they won't cover the new vehicle), then the refund should always be pro-rata without penalty :thumb:


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## uggski

Shiny said:


> I've done high street Broking since i was sixteen, so for 31 years
> 
> To be fair, i still really enjoy it, in the same day you can be asked to insure a sex shop to someone repairing the underground sewers in a disused nucleur power plant, so it certainly is varied. I love the different range of customers i have from builders and motor trader to multi-millionaires and i do tend to natter a bit. love speaking to my valeting & detailing customers too.
> 
> I still get a buzz from someone taking a policy and it doesn't matter if it is an £80 liability policy or a £20k fleet. Some days are a bit repetitive and being on hold to insurers for hours on end doesn't help, but all in all it ain't a bad career.
> 
> I couldn't cope with the corporate BS that goes on many places and all the corporate acronyms, so i think i'd struggle to work for anyone other msyself these days.
> 
> Insurance acturaries are still in big demand, although these days it is more of a programming job than it was in the good old days. An extract of a large paper on fleet insurance calculations from the 70's...


Started reading it then Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz!


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## DrEskimo

Shiny said:


> I've done high street Broking since i was sixteen, so for 31 years
> 
> To be fair, i still really enjoy it, in the same day you can asked to insure a sex shop to someone reapiring the underground sewers in a disused nucleur power plant, so it certainly is varied. I love the different range of customers i have from builders and motor trader to multi-millionaires and i do tend to natter a bit. love speaking to my valeting & detailing customers too.
> 
> I still get a buzz from someone taking a policy and it doesn't matter if it is an £80 liability policy or a £20k fleet. Some days are a bit repetitive and being hold to insurers for hours on end doesn't help, but all in all it ain't a bad career.
> 
> I couldn't cope with the corporate BS that goes on many places and all the corporate acronyms, so i think i'd struggle to work for anyone other msyself these days.
> 
> Insurance acturaries are still in big demand, although these days it is more of a programming job than it was in the good old days. An extract of a large paper on fleet insurance calculations from the 70's...


Yea that variety does sound good!

For me, it's the context that makes my job interesting. Statistics (and as you say, largely computer programming. Do you happen to know what software they use...?) is fairly interesting to me, but really it's knowing how all the models and numbers translate into improving patients' health care. Not really that interested in helping an insurance company make money to put it bluntly...!

Far from a theoretical statistician, but from what I can recognise from those scribbles, the notation of mew and sigma would suggest a count based regression...probably generalised linear model assuming a Poisson distribution? I've done lots of prognostic modelling looking at risk of mortality and other outcomes. so looks like its very similar! Not that I do anything by hand...!


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## Shiny

I'm far from understanding any of those calculations, i can now happily leave anything like that to my lad who's studying for a Maths degree at Bath Uni!

It's a mixed bag for me being a broker, its about being fair to both the insurer and the customers as we represent both, but always having the customer's best interest at heart. I can see where you are coming from though.

I'm afraid i don't know what software they use.

I was told a story many moons ago about a young uni stats grat that was employed by Halifax (now Provident) insurance to analyse and improve their poor performing motor account. It went along the lines of him saying that he didn't care if a car was a Vauxhall Astra or a Sierra Cosworth, he had no interest in cars, he just wanted to know the code for the vehicle on their system. In same respect he didn't care or want to know about insurance, he just wanted stats and figures to rework the rates. Within a couple of years he turned a loss into a profit with no knowledge of either cars or insurance, just a very good mind for calculating probablilty based on stats. I can't guarantee the accuracy of the story, but it doesn't surprise me.


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## DrEskimo

Nope, makes sense. 

Not something I can do in my line of work, as its very important to understand the study design and clinical area to know what impact they may be having on the results, but theoretically I could do the analysis without knowing what the data is actually about.

But seeing as that's the bit that actually interests me, it's not an approach I would take anyway...!

Is your lad studying statistical mathematics? My GF did maths as well, but she hasn't got a scooby about what I do...! She did pure maths and things like that, rather than statistics.


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## percymon

DrEskimo said:


> Co-Op ECO insurance won't cover an EV....? Please say you pointed out the irony...!


Yes, irony indeed - at least they refunded pro rata days used/remaining so i'm not out of pocket


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## Hereisphilly

Update for everyone, rang Adrian Flux back, spoke to a much more helpful lady who reiterated the area rating thing, said I had gone from an E to an L which is fair jump apparently

Anyway I asked her to speak to the underwriters again, stressing to them how much safer the car is now, irrespective of location etc

Came back and nearly halved the increase in premium, no it's now only £76! Much better and given the situation something I'm much happier in paying

Thanks for all the advice guys!

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## Shiny

DrEskimo said:


> Is your lad studying statistical mathematics? My GF did maths as well, but she hasn't got a scooby about what I do...! She did pure maths and things like that, rather than statistics.


He's in his first year, so it is a mixed bag this year of probability & statistics, analysis, programming & discrete, methods & applications and algebra.

He's a bright lad, left school with 16 GCSEs and 4 A Levels (A* maths, A further maths, A physics and A computing).



Hereisphilly said:


> Update for everyone, rang Adrian Flux back, spoke to a much more helpful lady who reiterated the area rating thing, said I had gone from an E to an L which is fair jump apparently
> 
> Anyway I asked her to speak to the underwriters again, stressing to them how much safer the car is now, irrespective of location etc
> 
> Came back and nearly halved the increase in premium, no it's now only £76! Much better and given the situation something I'm much happier in paying
> 
> Thanks for all the advice guys!
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


Great result. Definitely stay where you are now. Worth the phone call and always refreshing to hear when a motor underwriter is prepared to be flexible and reasonable. :thumb:


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## Hereisphilly

Shiny said:


> He's in his first year, so it is a mixed bag this year of probability & statistics, analysis, programming & discrete, methods & applications and algebra.
> 
> He's a bright lad, left school with 16 GCSEs and 4 A Levels (A* maths, A further maths, A physics and A computing).
> 
> Great result. Definitely stay where you are now. Worth the phone call and always refreshing to hear when a motor underwriter is prepared to be flexible and reasonable. :thumb:


Yep, I pretty much snapped her hand off as I know I wasn't going to get anything better

I was expecting around £50 in admin chargers so this isn't much more in my mind

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## MDC250

Shiny said:


> More bad new today, the government have cut the discount rate on the Ogden Scales (injury claims) from 2.5% to minus 0.75%, so this is going to have a big affect on motor & small business insurance premiums as it will cost the insurers millions more in claims costs and have a massive effect on their current claims reserves.
> 
> A lot of insurers had anticipated a 1% cut in the rate and premiums have been gradually rising recently as a result of this, but the cut of 3.25 to minus .75% was well above expaectations and is going to have quite an impact on future premiums.


Question I'd be asking of insurers is of the 16 years when the discount rate was set at 2.5% what have you done with all the money saved? The rate should have been revisited sooner than it has. It's certainly not been cheaper premiums as we know the industry has form when it comes to passing on savings, or more accurately doing the exact opposite.

Surely they didn't think they could get away with under compensating any longer than they have to date?

Let's not forget that the discount rate only impacts on future losses and for these to be substantial the injury is serious in the first instance, typically life changing.

Also at the moment the revised rate inadvertently eats into accommodation claims as a negative rate wipes out any capital component on a Roberts v Johnstone calculation.


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## Andy from Sandy

Have you tried going to Admiral or Direct Line for your old address and then new address for quote comparisons?

Is your new address in a crime hotspot?

When I moved a few years ago my premium went down so I must of moved to a lower crime rate area me thinks.


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## Cookies

Hereisphilly said:


> Update for everyone, rang Adrian Flux back, spoke to a much more helpful lady who reiterated the area rating thing, said I had gone from an E to an L which is fair jump apparently
> 
> Anyway I asked her to speak to the underwriters again, stressing to them how much safer the car is now, irrespective of location etc
> 
> Came back and nearly halved the increase in premium, no it's now only £76! Much better and given the situation something I'm much happier in paying
> 
> Thanks for all the advice guys!
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


Brilliant news Phil. That's what I'd call a good result.

Now go and buy some detailing gear with all the money you've saved.

Cooks

Sent from my D6603


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## Hereisphilly

Andy from Sandy said:


> Have you tried going to Admiral or Direct Line for your old address and then new address for quote comparisons?
> 
> Is your new address in a crime hotspot?
> 
> When I moved a few years ago my premium went down so I must of moved to a lower crime rate area me thinks.


It's not a crime hotspot at all, it's quieter estate 10 mins walk from my old address, and one of the reasons we picked it
Missus is from the area so had good insight into the good streets

My old street, although in town was shorter and only had 10 or so houses on it, the next lot of buildings were mainly commercial

I can only presume that my new address is way more densely populated (68 houses)the number of claims will be more, purely down to the increase in volume of people

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## Hereisphilly

Cookies said:


> Brilliant news Phil. That's what I'd call a good result.
> 
> Now go and buy some detailing gear with all the money you've saved.
> 
> Cooks
> 
> Sent from my D6603


Cheers mate, yeah I'm already plotting, but we've been to ikea today and splashed way more than planned! 😖

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## Welshquattro1

steveo3002 said:


> parking on the road often makes it cheaper strangley enough


I was told by my insurance company that if the car is on your drive the thieves know which house to break into for the keys as it's easier to break in your house than most cars now. If its parked in the street they are less likely to know which house the car belongs too.


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## Cookies

If they ask "where is your car parked overnight?" Just say "Next door's driveway."

Cheap insurance, and it's still in a driveway lol. Easy. 

Cooks 

Sent from my D6603


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## enc

Cookies said:


> If they ask "where is your car parked overnight?" Just say "Next door's driveway."
> 
> Cheap insurance, and it's still in a driveway lol. Easy.
> 
> Cooks
> 
> Sent from my D6603


:lol:


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