# Question about mods known & unknown!



## kh904 (Dec 18, 2006)

An interesting thread from another forum i'm on, about certain mods and if they effect insurance premiums:

If i were to replace my standard exhaust for a powerflow one (or any other stainless steel one) on the basis of being long life & not having to replace it rather than for power gains, would it have to be declared to the insurers?
Would the premium increase?

What if you re-trimmed or swapped a cloth interior to leather (from a breakers yard) for example? It's not a performance mod but i guess it must make the car more desirable & little more valuable.

Or aftermarket rear badge replacements or debadging the coupe?
At what point does it not matter or become unreasonable/rediculous?

But the most interesting question:

Just being the Devil's advocate:

But if someone buys a 2nd hand car & genuinely doesn't know or honestly believe that it isn't modded when asked, & they say that to the insurance co., what else can they reasonably do if they honestly believe that it looks oem?

For eg. a 2l coupe had the 16 in starfish alloys (whic comes from the 3l V6) on them & cloth interior replaced with leather, S/S exhaust which looks similar to standard. Or if it's been remapped?
To the average person with average knowledge it wouldn't necessarily look modded from standard. How would any person know without actively researching to find out if it's been modded?

I see lots of BMW's with OEM alloys that have been replaced from other BMW's but from a different or higher spec.
I can tell that they are not the standard for that trim because i have a relatively decent knowledge of cars (bit of a geek).

Interested to hear an insurers point of view :thumb:


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## bigmc (Mar 22, 2010)

Ignorance is no arguement imho. Any modification from how the car was built should be notified, insurers can tell from a chassis number what wheels, interior, stereo etc the car would have had from the factory.


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## kh904 (Dec 18, 2006)

bigmc said:


> Ignorance is no arguement imho. Any modification from how the car was built should be notified, insurers can tell from a chassis number what wheels, interior, stereo etc the car would have had from the factory.


I agree ignorance is not a defence BUT the point is how do you notify the insurers if you believe it's standard?

When the insurers ask what specifically has been modified? What would you reply with if you don't know?

Does the chassis give info of the interior trim? ie cloth or leather

Something like a remap on a 2nd hand car would be impossible to know without the right kit.


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## bigmc (Mar 22, 2010)

Yes the chassis number gives enough detail to tell what colour carpets, seats, dash etc are and material. I see your point about second hand buys.


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## wayne10244 (Aug 24, 2008)

You must tell your insurance company about all mods as I have had two modified cars in some case's your insurance does not go up as with my present car but with the first car with engine fully blue print rally bulit engine bigger brakes all a round full stainless exhaust with manifold bigger wheels . So yes you must tell your insurance company even if you have change the wheels that was the same size but they are aftermarket not factory as they would not be covered by your insurance


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## kh904 (Dec 18, 2006)

wayne10244 said:


> You must tell your insurance company about all mods as I have had two modified cars in some case's your insurance does not go up as with my present car but with the first car with engine fully blue print rally bulit engine bigger brakes all a round full stainless exhaust with manifold bigger wheels . So yes you must tell your insurance company even if you have change the wheels that was the same size but they are aftermarket not factory as they would not be covered by your insurance


But one of the points i'm trying to make is that if someone (your average person) buys a second hand car, they will not necessarily have the knowledge to know if it's been modded, for eg. many BMW's on the road i've seen have genuine BMW alloys but from other higher models/specs.

Or what if the previous owner has remapped it? The new owner would not be able to tell without the right equipment.


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## Shiny (Apr 23, 2007)

http://www.financial-ombudsman.org.uk/publications/ombudsman-news/46/46_non_disclosure_insurance.htm


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## wayne10244 (Aug 24, 2008)

There are way's of telling if the car has been modified if you was buying a second hand car find out what the spec of the car that it came out of the factory and if the engine has been mapped or chip in some case's the dealer can flash a up date and this will wipe out a map on the ecu as for a chip you can see if the chip in the ecu has been replaced. Like my car I can turn the map off and return it to the factory setting with a press of a button.


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## CraigQQ (Jan 20, 2011)

I get what your saying OP..
and yes there is ways of finding out if its chipped or remapped, or if the alloys are standard..

but there is people like my mum/dad who wouldn't check any of that if they thought it was standard...


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## Mindis (Feb 2, 2011)

wayne10244 said:


> There are way's of telling if the car has been modified if you was buying a second hand car find out what the spec of the car that it came out of the factory and if the engine has been mapped or chip in some case's the dealer can flash a up date and this will wipe out a map on the ecu as for a chip you can see if the chip in the ecu has been replaced. Like my car I can turn the map off and return it to the factory setting with a press of a button.


So you are saying that my grandmother could do that? Find out spec, how it came out from the factory, can tell difference of what chip it is inside ECU?


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## Alzak (Aug 31, 2010)

wayne10244 said:


> There are way's of telling if the car has been modified if you was buying a second hand car find out what the spec of the car that it came out of the factory and if the engine has been mapped or chip in some case's the dealer can flash a up date and this will wipe out a map on the ecu as for a chip you can see if the chip in the ecu has been replaced. Like my car I can turn the map off and return it to the factory setting with a press of a button.


come on how many buyers go with second hand car to dealer to check if car was mapped this is not free You buy second hand car for reason

after i bought my car it will never go back to dealer for any kind of service due to silly prices for basic service


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## wayne10244 (Aug 24, 2008)

I got all the gear to do all the checks myself as most of the mods are done by my self . As to a grandmother buying a car I dought see would know what to look for so you are at risk at buying a modified car but would you let your grandmother by her self look at second hand car? Most people take a friend to look at a car. But for me my car have a agreed value so the insurance company would send someone to look at the car and check that all the mods that I have declared are there.


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## hoikey (Mar 9, 2011)

wayne10244 said:


> I got all the gear to do all the checks myself as most of the mods are done by my self . As to a grandmother buying a car I dought see would know what to look for so you are at risk at buying a modified car but would you let your grandmother by her self look at second hand car? Most people take a friend to look at a car. But for me my car have a agreed value so the insurance company would send someone to look at the car and check that all the mods that I have declared are there.


You were on about checking the chip within the ecu, taking apart the ecu to look inside will break the manufacturers seal and void all warranty on it. Seems like a fairly stupid suggestion to me


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## Captain Pugwash (Mar 23, 2011)

yes there is a seal, but if my work mate (who does not even know how to change a wheel by the way ) went out and bought a Astra Sri (for example) and the previous owner had the ecu chipped ...he would not even know where the ecu was to check, nor would he bother....but the rest of the car is standard...so how does he know to tell his insurance company the car is chipped??


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## PugIain (Jun 28, 2006)

Isnt a modification technically ANY change at all.Mods to Pc games are changes to codes,textures,sound etc.Not necessarily adding, sometimes can be removing but still modifiying.
So if your backbox drops off and you buy a cheap am replacement you have technically modified your car.


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## hoikey (Mar 9, 2011)

PugIain said:


> Isnt a modification technically ANY change at all.Mods to Pc games are changes to codes,textures,sound etc.Not necessarily adding, sometimes can be removing but still modifiying.
> So if your backbox drops off and you buy a cheap am replacement you have technically modified your car.


correct. and if you choose a different brand tyre to replace a bald one, modification. If you replace a headlight bulb which has blown with one from halfrauds, mod.


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## President Swirl (Oct 23, 2011)

*mods*

ANY excuse for an insurer to not pay out they will take it. Anything not o.e.m apart from wear and tear, i.e exhaust etc, needs to be declared, otherwise the small print special branch will be partying in their mother's attics. You must use common sense, no aftermarket lowering kits, no blinging rims, no re-maps, you get the idea. Run of the mill replacements from a motorfactors is o.k. Of course you don't have to tell them anything, but, if they assess your car and find something undeclared, you won't get a penny. A good lawyer may argue that certain items couldn't have caused or made a difference in a crash, but, for every lawyer you find, they have 10. Best basically to tell them everything you can i'm not saying modded cars are bad, when done well, far from it. Just be honest, it's worth it.


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## johnnyguitar (Mar 24, 2010)

bigmc said:


> Ignorance is no arguement imho. Any modification from how the car was built should be notified, insurers can tell from a chassis number what wheels, interior, stereo etc the car would have had from the factory.


The option codes in my service book state my car should have 17" wheels - 18"s were previously an option but MY07 cars (which mine is) got them as standard, but presumably a check on the chassis number would suggest to the insurance company they've been replaced. I assume there must be a legitimate argument that the car is in standard trim?


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## kh904 (Dec 18, 2006)

President Swirl said:


> You must use common sense, no aftermarket lowering kits, no blinging rims, no re-maps, you get the idea. Run of the mill replacements from a motorfactors is o.k. Of course you don't have to tell them anything, but, if they assess your car and find something undeclared, you won't get a penny.


What about something like a stainless steel exhaust - nothing to do with gaining power or any difference in sound (as standard as possible) just the so you don't have to replace it during the life of the car?


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## Shiny (Apr 23, 2007)

Just to clarify, the question regarding disclosure is answered on the previous page within the ABI's description of deliberate, reckless, innocent and inadvertent. Click the link posted, it should explain how it all works.

As to what needs to be disclosed, the basic rule of thumb is, if it didn't leave the factory like it, then it needs to be disclosed.

The question on a proposal form is usually something along the lines of "has your vehicle been altered or modified from the manufacturer's standard specification?". So you must answer this to the best of your knowledge and in utmost good faith.

Strictly speaking "dealer options" should be disclosed if they were fitted by the dealer after it left the factory. These do not normally cause any problems though as they are normally in accordance with manufacturer's specifications.

Swapping parts from other models must be disclosed. Just because the wheels on an RS Ford Focus were made by Ford for the Focus, doesn't mean you don't have to tell your Insurers if you fit RS wheels to a 1.6L Focus. The same goes with swapping lights, seats, in fact anything from another model if your particular model never left the factory with them fitted.

Most parts, like unipart, cooper, bosal etc are OEM pattern parts or OEM equivalent. If they are OEM equivalent, effectively you are not altering the factory specification and shouldn't worry about disclosing these. You'll might even find that some Insurers use pattern parts even for new cars in the event of accident to keep their costs down and their internet online prices cheap (while some will only fit them after the car is 5 years old or more).

With the stainless steel example above, if the car left the factory with a mild steel exhaust, then a s/s exhaust will be classed as a modification. Generally speaking, most s/s exhausts are performance upgrades anyway, but if you were to fit a direct replacement exhaust in s/s and the ONLY difference was the life expectancy, then the Insurers may be happy to accept this at normal terms. Arguably the exhaust will cost more to replace in the event of an accident, so they could still want some terms attached.

As for the wheels, if you car left the factory with 17's but there was an option for 18's and you decided to change them at a later date to 18's, again this must be disclosed. You should be able to present a case that it was an option for your model at the time of sale and hopefully get cover at normal terms, but some insurers will stand by their acceptance criteria of "no modifications" and not insure the car or want a premium loading.

I've disclosed everything on mine, from debadging, to refurbished wheels in a slightly different colour, painted calipers, to xsara washer jets and bosch aeroblades, led side lights, uprated bulbs etc, as well as the performance mods like full s/s exhaust, k&n typhoon, brake discs etc. Even the little tweaks like a throttle body coolant bypass and crankcase breather have been disclosed. It is highly likely that most of these have made little or no difference, but i have let the insurers decide as to whether the modification is "material", rather than think to myself "bah, they don't need to know about my washer jets...". This way, i'm confident that should i be involved in accident, i won't be faced with a loss adjuster scrutinising my car and facing accusations of non-disclosure and potentially having my policy voided.


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## President Swirl (Oct 23, 2011)

Hi kh904. as for the exhaust, the insurer may class it as an upgrade from a standard replacement part. I know it sounds silly, a decent insurer may not be bothered, but, if the back box has a larger diameter tip, it may cause excess noise. Things like tyres, pads, and spark plugs are o.k, i would say even iridium. But i would declare upgraded calipers, ie sti upgrades on a scooby. If you are unsure on any item, talk to your insurer, and be honest, a few quid extra every month on your premium, is better than getting nothing, if they get the fine tooth comb out later.


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## wish wash (Aug 25, 2011)

You may as well declare as if you have a bump the insurance company will use every trick under the sun not to pay out.


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## The Cueball (Feb 8, 2007)

It's actually quite worrying when I go to look at cars and the owners don't know that it's been modded....

I was looking at a car from the early 90s at the weekend, and the owner really thought that it came from the factory with 20" wheels....because they said the company name on the centre cap! :lol: :wall:

I don't even think 20" wheels and tyres were around at that time!!!!!

:thumb:


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## Shiny (Apr 23, 2007)

President Swirl said:


> Things like tyres, pads, and spark plugs are o.k, i would say even iridium.


Not true, unless they are OEM equivalent. Upgraded spark plugs and brakes (such as EBC Green/Redstuff) must be disclosed as they are classed as a performance upgrade. Same goes for HT leads, even silicone hoses if the originals were rubber.


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## Bero (Mar 9, 2008)

Shiny said:


> Not true, unless they are OEM equivalent. Upgraded spark plugs and brakes (such as EBC Green/Redstuff) must be disclosed as they are classed as a performance upgrade. Same goes for HT leads, even silicone hoses if the originals were rubber.


Who decides if they're pattern or 'upgrades'? Greenstuff etc are cheaper and arguably no better than OEM...and could be supplied by a motor factors. And what about tyres? Michelin could be regarded as an upgrade if your car came with kumo/bridgestone/whatever - nobody is declaring different tyres...what if the OE tyres (e.g. pilot exelato 1 on clio sports) cease being made?

I get your argument Lloyd but who in the history of car insurance has had their claim changed due to debadging or aero-wipers? As a broker what would your response be if one of your customers was told by the underwriter that their claim was being reduced (or void) due to aero-wipers).

As cars age nobody knows what the OEM wiper or wheel spec was - in many cases it may have varied through the product cycle...and even if you know something is an option how would you find out if a 10yr old car option was factory or dealer fit?

This is definitely not an attack on you - just a devils advocate point of view, your 1st hand input on insurance threads is welcome in an area that's shrouded in rumor and legend! :thumb:


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## Shiny (Apr 23, 2007)

EBC themselves list their OEM replacement and performance upgrade pads - http://www.ebcbrakesdirect.com/car/info.asp - as such Green/Yellow/Red etc are all performance upgrades. The manufacturers themselves usually state whether they are direct OEM replacement or a performance/enhancement part.

Tyres are slightly different, unless it is slicks etc, they are all pretty much deemed to be OEM replacement as long as you fit the correct tyres. There has been a big hoo-har about winter tyres in recent years, with the conclusion from the ABI being that they should be notified to the Insurers although the Insurers should accept them at normal terms.

The thing with the aeroblades, washer jets etc on my car, is that it was me that changed them, so i have no excuse that i didn't know about them. I know they are not OEM, so being a contract of utmost good faith, i have disclosed them. Yes i would argue a point if i had a customer that had a claim kicked out because of aeroblades, but ultimately an insurer could stand their ground and a case would need to go to the ombudsman. I can do without the hassle on my own policy, but further more, there is no excuse for me not know about the need to disclose modifications, hence i play my own policy by the book.

Knowing or not knowing your car is modified goes back to the "deliberate, reckless, innocent or inadvertent" disclosure. If you have modified the car yourself or bought it knowing it was modified, then it would be either deliberate or reckless to not disclose it.


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## Dixondmn (Oct 12, 2007)

Basically car insurance in the UK sucks big time. When Mods which make your car safer or more economical push your premium up.
(And we've not even discussed the premium hikes associated with fitting winter tyres for safety....)


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## dew1911 (Jun 9, 2009)

dixon75 said:


> Basically car insurance in the UK sucks big time. When Mods which make your car safer or more economical push your premium up.
> (And we've not even discussed the premium hikes associated with fitting winter tyres for safety....)


I've said it before. Insurance is legal theft. You hand an company a 3/4 figure sum, get 5 sheets of paper for it, then once you actually need it, they do everything they possibly can to make sure they keep your money.


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## Shiny (Apr 23, 2007)

Or to take another view on the issue, manufacturers make their cars with all things considered, safety, economy, cost etc. Those cars that have more performance or are more attractive to thieves attract a higher group rating (premium).

From a moral perspective, why fit bigger alloys, uprated brakes and performance exhausts when manufacturer's are perfectly adequate. You can argue that a brake upgrade means the car is safer, but in reality if the OEM brakes weren't safe enough, the car wouldn't go into production. Now we all know that bigger better brakes in the real world mean we can hammer down and brake at the last minute before hitting a bend, but who rings up their Insurers and tells them that is reason they fitted them?

The same pretty much goes for most modifications, they either have an increased moral risk attached or make your car stand out and potentially be more attractive to thieves. Often higher costs can be involved with modified cars, i know if my old Prelude got stacked, the repair would have been a nightmare having a blended (and very rare) lip kit.

I've dealt with countless claims over the years, the majority of which have run smoothly leaving happy customers. It is usually the ones where they forgot to mention their motoring convictions, or were using their car for business when they have SDP use, or didn't disclose mods that generally end up being the problem cases.


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## Bero (Mar 9, 2008)

dixon75 said:


> Basically car insurance in the UK sucks big time. When Mods which make your car safer or more economical push your premium up.
> (And we've not even discussed the premium hikes associated with fitting winter tyres for safety....)


When mods CHANGE THE RISK or increase the replacement cost if damaged then your premium SHOULD change, I've no arguments with that; manufactures have also done a considerable amount of testing on aerodynamics, brakes etc...if you start fitting a big body kit and different brakes you're effectively entering the unknown, will there be significant lift at high speed?? Will the brakes work as effectively with the ABS and stability control system? You really don't know!....so much so the car manufacturer may not stand by their warranty.

BUT the industry is set up for stack 'em high sell 'em low type business with search engines that report the cheapest rates and decisions being primarily on this reported cost. The problem is companies don't want to alter policies as it's time consuming...but it's also a time they can make much higher margin charges. I'm £100 per year for a different exhaust (OE is stainless and £1200 to replace, the one fitted is also stainless but only £250 to replace), how is that a fair reflection of increased risk or change in liability??? I believe they charge disproportionately high compared to very small changes in risk.

And winter tyres do not put up your premium - this was don'e to death last year.
http://www.theaa.com/motoring_advice/safety/winter-tyres-in-the-uk.html
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-11969958
----
Edit - darm you fast typist Lloyd!


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## Shiny (Apr 23, 2007)

Bero said:


> ----
> Edit - darm you fast typist Lloyd!


Lol, well at least we are singing from the same claim hymn sheet...


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## kh904 (Dec 18, 2006)

Some very interesting & informative posts from everyone (especially Shiny) :thumb:


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## johnnyguitar (Mar 24, 2010)

Shiny said:


> As for the wheels, if you car left the factory with 17's but there was an option for 18's and you decided to change them at a later date to 18's, again this must be disclosed. You should be able to present a case that it was an option for your model at the time of sale and hopefully get cover at normal terms, but some insurers will stand by their acceptance criteria of "no modifications" and not insure the car or want a premium loading.


I don't dispute that at all but what I'm trying to establish is this.
The Octavia, when launched in 2006, came out of the factory on 17s as standard. 18s were an option at launch but in 2007 they became standard (along with some other kit that was previously an option). The option code for 17" wheels fitted is present in my service book, but my car has a build date after the date 18s became standard. What's the situation there?


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## Shiny (Apr 23, 2007)

So did your car leave the factory with 18s, or did it leave with 17s and you have fitted 18s at a later date?


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## bigmc (Mar 22, 2010)

If the option code is there then 17's are standard and 18s need disclosing imho.


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## johnnyguitar (Mar 24, 2010)

Shiny said:


> So did your car leave the factory with 18s, or did it leave with 17s and you have fitted 18s at a later date?


It came out of the factory on 18s as they were standard equipment by the time the car was built.


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