# Bilt Hamber Autofoam problems? Or Sonax Brilliant Shine too slick ??



## B0DSKI (Nov 25, 2011)

Thought I'd try a different snowfoam so after reading some good reviews I decided on Bilt Hamber Autofoam. 

Tried it for the first time this morning and was less than impressed. 

Usual routine. 3/4 of an inch in the foam lance, then topped up to half way with warm water. 

The mix seemed to be reasonably strong. Certainly not as thick as Magifoam but I wasn't expecting it to be. 

It literally ran straight off the car, within 30 seconds of it being applied it was on the floor, no dwell time and certainly no cleaning. Tried adjusting the mixture via the dial on top of the lance but even on the highest setting, yes it got slightly thicker but I had exactly the same problem, it simply ran off and ended up on the floor. 

The car is a 2013 Hyundai i10 with a 2 week old coat of Sonax Brilliant Shine Detailer on. Is it so slick that foam won't dwell ?? 

Didn't have time to try another foam but I will next time out to see if I get the same results. 

Very disappointed


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## Ross (Apr 25, 2007)

Needs around 200ml in a liter foam bottle to work right.


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## huvo (Dec 14, 2009)

Bilt Hamber take a different approach to snow foam. They believe that a foam that dwells on the paintwork isn't doing anything. With Autofoam, because it doesn't dwell on the paintwork for a long period of time but slides off, the foam takes the dirt with it therefore, removing more in preparation for a 2bm stage. Just don't use it in direct sun or on warm days but it is ideal at this time of year. It took me a while to get my head around the science but stick with it, it does work.


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## CleanCar99 (Dec 30, 2011)

The stuff is great, as already said, 200ml in a 1L bottle, set lance to strongest setting and fire away. It should take 4-5mins to slide off, then your ready to pressure wash and follow up with 2bm :thumb:


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## B0DSKI (Nov 25, 2011)

Obviously not using enough then. 

I went with the dilution ratio as I'd use with Magifoam. 

It didn't do a thing it simply ran straight onto the floor and didn't take anything with it. Believe me it was that quick running off it's not surprising!


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## andymp85 (Jul 21, 2013)

i use mine at the same strength of the magifoam about an inch the toped up with warm water and works really well i haven't changed since using i think its really good


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## evotuning (Oct 16, 2009)

BSD can be responsible for this, especially when car isn't very dirt, and foam can't cling to dirt while paint itself is too repellent for foam to cling.


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## stangalang (Nov 27, 2009)

Did it look like the left hand side of this bonnet? If so it is the sealant. Its true bh auto foam is very different to other products, but other products are needlessly thick and quite harmful, cheating you into assuming its working cause its thick. They can be quite caustic messes. It doesn't have to be thick to clean


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## Yellow Dave (Apr 5, 2011)

How dirty was the car? Using an LSP with quick water run off will also do this to the foam if there is little dirt on the panel to slow things down. 

A foam that doesn't dwell for long and is more a wetter product that runs off pulling dirt with it shouldnt be doing as described so quickly. It should still sit on the panel running off a little slower for a few minutes at least on a dirty panel


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## B0DSKI (Nov 25, 2011)

stangalang said:


> Did it look like the left hand side of this bonnet? If so it is the sealant. Its true bh auto foam is very different to other products, but other products are needlessly thick and quite harmful, cheating you into assuming its working cause its thick. They can be quite caustic messes. It doesn't have to be thick to clean
> 
> Artdeshine glass coating (non stick effect) - YouTube


Exactly that but the runoff was maybe even quicker.

Car was pretty minging. Not been touched for two weeks and is a daily driver.


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## B0DSKI (Nov 25, 2011)

Yellow Dave said:


> How dirty was the car? Using an LSP with quick water run off will also do this to the foam if there is little dirt on the panel to slow things down.
> 
> A foam that doesn't dwell for long and is more a wetter product that runs off pulling dirt with it shouldnt be doing as described so quickly. It should still sit on the panel running off a little slower for a few minutes at least on a dirty panel


On and off onto the floor in less than 30 seconds easily Dave


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## stangalang (Nov 27, 2009)

B0DSKI said:


> Exactly that but the runoff was maybe even quicker.
> 
> Car was pretty minging. Not been touched for two weeks and is a daily driver.


Its the detailer dude. Don't panic :thumb:


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## B0DSKI (Nov 25, 2011)

stangalang said:


> Its the detailer dude. Don't panic :thumb:


Thought that might be the case.

Impressive for just one coat of SBD I suppose


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## stangalang (Nov 27, 2009)

B0DSKI said:


> Thought that might be the case.
> 
> Impressive for just one coat of SBD I suppose


Its a quality products, works very well as a topper to reduce water spotting for sure


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## james_death (Aug 9, 2010)

Foam needs to be hitting the panel at a ratio of 4 to 5 % minimum and for me with my water flow rate from the lance is using it neat.

So far its my fave foam.


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## Mark70 (Oct 13, 2013)

I had the same with Magifoam two weeks after applying SBSD. Two weeks later and the foam stuck around after the detailer started to fade


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## B0DSKI (Nov 25, 2011)

Impressive stuff then! Unless you want your snow foam to work lol


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## Yellow Dave (Apr 5, 2011)

since trying BSD I've been using pre sprays like valet pro and autofinesse citrus, and not bothered with the foam lance. Pre spray and soak, then pressure rinse to remove all the mud and BSD started beading again


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## Flakey (May 5, 2013)

stangalang said:


> Its true bh auto foam is very different to other products, but other products are needlessly thick and quite harmful, cheating you into assuming its working cause its thick. They can be quite caustic messes. It doesn't have to be thick to clean


Matt - Just when I was happy that I ventured into the Snow Foam territory by placing an order for AF Avalanche, you tempted me with BH Auto Foam Now


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## 3dom (Oct 30, 2012)

So, let me get this right; from top to bottom we have

Mud and road grime (top layer)
Sonax BS (middle layer)
Other LSP or topcoat? (bottom layer)

And the Autofoam is being sprayed onto the mud and road grime layer?

So why would the slickness of the underlying SBS matter if it's covered in mud and grime? Surely the Autofoam would cling to that first and take at least some of it off before it even sniffed the SBS?

I'm not trying to wind anyone up but I don't follow why the Autofoam or any other snow foam/pre-contact cleaner won't affect the top layer because of what the middle layer (using my rather poor and over simplified) analogy has on it 

Help!!


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## Flakey (May 5, 2013)

3dom said:


> So, let me get this right; from top to bottom we have
> 
> Mud and road grime (top layer)
> Sonax BS (middle layer)
> ...


Haha - Good One :thumb:


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## B0DSKI (Nov 25, 2011)

3dom said:


> So, let me get this right; from top to bottom we have
> 
> Mud and road grime (top layer)
> Sonax BS (middle layer)
> ...


Good point well made.

There's no other LSP just the SBS on freshly Bigfooted paint.

If It's not the SBS making the Bilt Hamber slide straight onto the floor then then what else made it happen?

It was literally so quick that I sprayed a coat onto the entire car then went inside to get my phone and It'd all gone.

We're back to the Bilt Hamber being either too thin or not up to the job ?


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## Bilt-Hamber Lab (Apr 11, 2008)

B0DSKI said:


> Good point well made.
> 
> There's no other LSP just the SBS on freshly Bigfooted paint.
> 
> ...


You need to work our your detergent feed rate, fill your bottle up with just water and discharge the lance into a container until the bottle empties - measure the volume of water produced, work out 5%. That's how much you need to then add to the bottle. As James has said it needs to be 4-5% to be highly effective... if it's not the cleaning will be minimal.


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## PJS (Aug 18, 2007)

Have you bothered to make the BH AF up to the 4-5% strength as it comes out of the foam lance nozzle?
If not, then that's where you start.

A quick way to approximate the percentage, is to fill your lance bottle with water (1L) and have the adjuster turned up full (- rather than +, generally) so that it's pulling as much of the 'solution' through as possible.

Press the trigger and time for 30 secs - measure remaining water in the bottle.
Based on that setting, let's assume you used 300ml of water, and your pressure washer has a spec of 500L/hr.

That means your nozzle is seeing 8.33 + 0.6 L/min in total.
5% of that is 446ml (450ml practically), which is the amount of neat product you would add to the bottle before topping up to 1L with water.

Once you've done the maths correctly, you should get a nice double cream/yoghurt type consistency sprayed onto the panels – don't set the fan width on the nozzle too narrow or too wide.


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## MVinter (Dec 10, 2013)

Use Autofoam 1:0 in the bottle and adjust the mixing screw until you godt the foam you want. Why do it so difficult?


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## PJS (Aug 18, 2007)

If you're lazy, then your method is an option, except that you'll never know whether you're at too high a solution strength or spot on.
Too high is a waste, as beyond 8%, BH AF doesn't actually do any more work.
You'll also waste more water and time rinsing off the after effects of too high a concentration of AF.

So for the sake of 5-10 mins work once, you'll know how much product to use for optimum benefit.
If that's too much of an effort, then I'd seriously question the reasoning behind using SF at all as part of your regime – may was well throw all the stuff a dealer's valeter would, in order to get it cleaned in the least amount of time.


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## SuperchargedLlama (Apr 25, 2008)

PJS said:


> Have you bothered to make the BH AF up to the 4-5% strength as it comes out of the foam lance nozzle?
> If not, then that's where you start.
> 
> A quick way to approximate the percentage, is to fill your lance bottle with water (1L) and have the adjuster turned up full (- rather than +, generally) so that it's pulling as much of the 'solution' through as possible.
> ...


Sorry to necro this thread - you make a good point here.

Can I check I've understood this correctly - based on the flow rate you've calculated here does that mean you're almost at a 1:1 ratio in the liter bottle (I'm basing this on your 450ml figure).

Not too sure how the maths works here as I don't know where the 8.33 value comes from or what it represents?


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## deegan1979 (Mar 6, 2012)

Ive just started using this as james death has stated ie neat in the lance 
It now has far superior cleaning power to my old magifoam.
Thick but still bubble and runs off within 3-5 mins, u can see it pulling the dirt off. And so far doesnt appear to be effecting my lsp at this strength.


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## dillinja999 (Aug 26, 2013)

how does that work out money wise? 1 inch for magifoam against about 4 for bh?


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## SuperchargedLlama (Apr 25, 2008)

dillinja999 said:


> how does that work out money wise? 1 inch for magifoam against about 4 for bh?


They cost about the same so I'd imagine the BH works out at 4 times more expensive due to volume used? (4 inches vs 1 inch is 4 times as much, right? Not 3 times? I always think I get this wrong). BUT if it is a better cleaner it might be worth the money I guess - I've recently purchased some and had all the issues that were mention in here, now I know it's due to the volume of solution I am using so I'll report back after the next use.


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## stantheman (Dec 23, 2010)

Mother-Goose said:


> Sorry to necro this thread - you make a good point here.
> 
> Can I check I've understood this correctly - based on the flow rate you've calculated here does that mean you're almost at a 1:1 ratio in the liter bottle (I'm basing this on your 450ml figure).
> 
> *Not too sure how the maths works here as I don't know where the 8.33 value comes from or what it represents?*


*

*

8.33 is litres per minute converted from the pw flow rate of 500 ltr / hour.


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## PJS (Aug 18, 2007)

Mother-Goose said:


> Sorry to necro this thread - you make a good point here.
> 
> Can I check I've understood this correctly - based on the flow rate you've calculated here does that mean you're almost at a 1:1 ratio in the liter bottle (I'm basing this on your 450ml figure).
> 
> Not too sure how the maths works here as I don't know where the 8.33 value comes from or what it represents?


As Stan points out, it's the flow rate per minute, based on the quoted specs which are in hours.
As with all maths, it's about making everything common - so in this equation, the PW specs need to be converted to l/min and your timing of the uptake by the lance, converted from seconds to minutes, hence time for 30 to allow of variations of inlet flow/pump-motor speed, then double for an equivalent of 1 mins worth.

With everything in minutes, you can now do the maths, to work out with your machine, what amount of foam you'll go through, at a given PIR (panel impact ratio), which in BH AF's case, is 5%.


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## organisys (Jan 3, 2012)

evotuning said:


> BSD can be responsible for this, especially when car isn't very dirt, and foam can't cling to dirt while paint itself is too repellent for foam to cling.


This, I use BSD and foam does run off a lot faster, ( I am using VP ANSF)


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## SuperchargedLlama (Apr 25, 2008)

stantheman said:


> [/B]
> 
> 8.33 is litres per minute converted from the pw flow rate of 500 ltr / hour.





PJS said:


> As Stan points out, it's the flow rate per minute, based on the quoted specs which are in hours.
> As with all maths, it's about making everything common - so in this equation, the PW specs need to be converted to l/min and your timing of the uptake by the lance, converted from seconds to minutes, hence time for 30 to allow of variations of inlet flow/pump-motor speed, then double for an equivalent of 1 mins worth.
> 
> With everything in minutes, you can now do the maths, to work out with your machine, what amount of foam you'll go through, at a given PIR (panel impact ratio), which in BH AF's case, is 5%.


Cheers chaps


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