# help with leather



## rsdan1984 (Jul 31, 2009)

hi guys, quick problem im having with dressing the leather on my FRS seats. i used to use AG leather cream on my st170 leather and it worked a treat - gave the leather a real deep colour that looked really enriched and would last. however, the same product on my rs leather looks nice for about a day and that's it!! if that sometimes! any idea why and what i could do to get the leather looking great. it's not like it looks awefull anything, don't get me wrong, its just i'd like it look like the st170 leather did if it's possible. some one in my local rsoc branch recomended cleaning the leather with an ordinary bar of hand soap so i did that and then used my AG leather cream, but no real improvement.


any ideas?


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## WaxOnWaxOff (Sep 12, 2010)

The leathers are probably coated differently so the product isn't behaving the same way. 

Tip 1: Don't use hand-soap on leathers. 
Tip 2: Conditioners on leathers are pretty much a waste of time. If it's lasting a day it's probably because it's sitting on the surface and your clothing is wiping it off again.


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## rsdan1984 (Jul 31, 2009)

someone on another forum is saying that modern leather is lacquered so feeds don't work anyway.


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## WaxOnWaxOff (Sep 12, 2010)

Exactomundo. I've tried a couple mainly following recommendations of people who swear by them, and the oils just sit on the surface. So I swore at them instead.  I use LTT's stuff now and am pretty happy.


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## Andy G (Feb 2, 2006)

WaxOnWaxOff said:


> I use LTT's stuff now and am pretty happy.


+ 1 , it's good stuff :wave:


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## rsdan1984 (Jul 31, 2009)

whats ltt? if leather is lacquered how is this different to any other leather feed?


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## Bel (Mar 1, 2011)

rsdan1984 said:


> whats ltt?


http://lttsolutions.co.uk/index.php/auto.html


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## ryand (Jul 18, 2008)

Clean and protect rather than clean and feed. Recommend ltt for this.


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## WaxOnWaxOff (Sep 12, 2010)

rsdan1984 said:


> whats ltt? if leather is lacquered how is this different to any other leather feed?


Simple answer: It's not "feeding" the leather with oils, lanolin, or suchlike which seem to do bugger-all.


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## Demetrios72 (Jun 27, 2011)

Dr Leather wipes are great IMO :thumb:


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## judyb (Sep 7, 2007)

Leather does not require 'conditioning' with anything other than water.

Keep your leather clean by protecting it with a leather protector and then regular cleaning. 
Adding 'conditioners' which generally contain oils and waxes will change the appearance of your leather over time as dirt will build up on the surface and cause a sheen.

Using the correct care methods and products will not alter the factory finish.

The type of leather you have is 'coated' leather. This is essentially a 'painted' leather 
with a clear coat finish over the top. The leather may or may not be dyed through with 
aniline dyes prior to the finish coating.

Essentially it is this top coating that needs looking after. 
Cleaning is vitally important as the top coat will wear away if allowed to become dirty. 
Dirt on the surface will also become ground into the finish by constant abrassion.

'Conditioners', balms, feeds etc (traditionally oil and wax based) cannot penetrate this 
finish so are not worth applying - they can also leave behind residues on the finish which will only attract more dirt if allowed to remain. 'Conditioners' will not do any 
protecting on leather even if they say they do as there will not be enough active 
ingredient in them to do anything.

A protector will make the finish easier to clean and also inhibit dye transfer etc 
on pale coloured leathers.

Leather however finished has to remain breathable and it will allow the movement of 
moisture back and forth (transpiration) so the use of water based cleaners and 
protectors will keep the leather correctly hydrated which is essentail to keeping it in 
good condition.

Leather needs a little regular care and attention and this can be done with a maintenance product rather than a deep clean which you would then only need to do once or twice a year depending on usage and colour.

The routine for correct care should be

Protect from new Auto Ultra Protect
Maintain with a regular clean or maintenance product Auto Ultra Maintain
Deep clean with a foam cleaner once or twice a year Auto Ultra Foam

Simple steps of cleaning & protecting will prolong the life of the finish on the leather without changing the look or feel and without leaving harmful residues on the surface of the leather.

Hope this helps 
Judyb


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## -Stuart W- (Dec 28, 2007)

When I had leather seats, I used the LTT products. It might not offer the finish I think you are looking for as it gives a factory/matt finish which is exactly what I was after.

I don't have leather anymore so could dig out what I have left if you like. Just let me know.


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## rsdan1984 (Jul 31, 2009)

Stu Blue 182 said:


> When I had leather seats, I used the LTT products. It might not offer the finish I think you are looking for as it gives a factory/matt finish which is exactly what I was after.
> 
> I don't have leather anymore so could dig out what I have left if you like. Just let me know.


i see you are local to me so that might be worth it! thanks for the info guys, i will bear this in mind. i'll have to check my AG stuff to find out exactly what it is/does.


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## rsdan1984 (Jul 31, 2009)

out of interest, what would you recommend for leather? other than LTT? i'm sure it's the bees knees but a little bit pricey, i'd prefer to pick up a protectant at around half that price if i can.


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## judyb (Sep 7, 2007)

Don't forget DW discount on all our products. Protectors that work correctly are not cheap products. Cheap protectors are not likely to contain active ingredients that actually work.
Hope this helps
Judyb
P.S Our products go a long way as only a little is required.


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## Andy G (Feb 2, 2006)

have a look at the Furniture Clinic stuff , it's good too:thumb:


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## -Stuart W- (Dec 28, 2007)

rsdan1984 said:


> i see you are local to me so that might be worth it! thanks for the info guys, i will bear this in mind. i'll have to check my AG stuff to find out exactly what it is/does.


Yeah, i'm didcot also


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## rsdan1984 (Jul 31, 2009)

my AG stuff clearly saus leather feed, talks about adding oils ect. does say protectant though. doesn't sound like the right stuff though. ECC has lots of gliptone products, are they any good?


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## WaxOnWaxOff (Sep 12, 2010)

I would say no. I changed from Gliptone. It's oil and/or lanolin based if I remember rightly. It's basically a conditioner again. Smells subjective but in my view it smells more like garden chemicals than leather. 

The three main manufacturers that seem to get good mentions on here are LTT, Dr Leather and Furniture Clinic. Check those out and see if you find something you like. 

You could try the Autoglym on a small test area first and see if you see it sitting on the surface. Simulate a clothing test after a day or two and rub the area with cloth. If it comes up matte again then you know there are just oils on the surface making the leather look good. You may not notice this on a light leather but on dark colours it's obvious.


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## ryand (Jul 18, 2008)

Is always used AG on leather gaiters etc until getting my current car, my first with full leather - full black perforated. It looked nice but very shiney at the test drive and afterwards my jeans were damp from I thought water but was silicone or oils from cheap dealer prep. 

Judy at ltt was very helpful by phone and advised the best course of action including no use of microfiber cloths and apc. Using ltt foam, protect and maintain has been great and worth the money for a proper clean with a silky satin finish that's protected. Hth.


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## rsdan1984 (Jul 31, 2009)

ok thanks, guys.


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## juddzey455 (Jan 30, 2009)

rsdan:wave:, pop a picture of your seats up:thumb:


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## Peter Parkinson (Mar 26, 2009)

I note from the attached threads that Gliptone Liquid Leather is referred to as being "oil and/or lanolin based" it is neither, oils come to the surface in warm weather and lanolin not only damages cow hide but also reduces the hide's ability to "breath", Liquid Leather Conditioner has non of these detremental effects.

Judyb, states that "Leather does not require conditioning with anything other than water", I must disagree, if leather is subjected to water on a regular basis, it shrinks, it also hardens, a used chamois leather is proof, also Rover in the 1960's recommended that their leather should be cleaned with "Lux Flakes and water", so did some suite manufacturers in the 80's and ear;y 90's, the result is that nearly all the 60's Rovers still on the road suffered from failed stitching on the seats, the leather had shrunk and pulled the stitching through the seams. So never use water to soften leather.
The name "Leather Protector", is a word that can be misleading, one company advertises that it's "Protector" prevents damage and scuffing, which cannot be true, another that it resists dye transfer, which again is unlikely, we have our Leather Preserve Prtection Cream which does not prevent dye transfer, but does make it easier to remove, so we don't say it resists or prevents dye transfer. There are "Protectors" that state that they prevent fading by the sun, we know that no aftermarket leather cream, conditioner or "protector" can prevent damage by the sun, we have been working to produce a product that actually works, and still are, rather than introducel something with exagerated claims.

Judyb, states that conditioners build up and attract dirt, this time I agree with her, some do, but not all, if the instructions say, "polish off or buff up" afterwards, these will build up, this is because it's still on the serfice. Liquid Leather has no such instruction.

But I do not agree that conditioners should not be used or they don't work on "modern leathers", modern leathers are much thinner than the traditional, they wear more quickly and cannot resist the heat of a sealed up, locked car. Anyone involved with modern cars can see that the leather wears very quickly, it's tanned, coloured and made to a price, even expensive cars suffer from premature wear, creases and cracks, all due to the leather drying out. So do these "Protectors" prevent drying out? If they do, they are conditioners with a fancy name.

Gliptone Liquid Leather, when used on a regular basis, will prevent leather from drying out, thus preventing creases and cracks, it will reduce colour wear by keeping the leather soft and supple so it can move with the occupier, so reducing abrasion, but we don't call it "Protector", we just claim it protects, it also restores, and this claim is backed up by the fact that it has won every product comparison test run by Classic Car magazines in the last 15 years. 
Just like Judyb, I can blow my own trumpet


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## WaxOnWaxOff (Sep 12, 2010)

To be fair I did say "if I remember rightly" as my recollection was hazy as to Liquid Leather's ingredients. I don't remember them being on the bottle. I would say that all that put me off liquid leather really was the smell - that put me off using it on a large enough area to see how it did. 

I've just found the following on Liquid Leather:
Paints & solvents. Pigments 0. catalyst 0. vehicle: Anionic/non ionic surfactants 40%.
Solvents. Glycol, propylene 30%. Additives. Stearate 10%. Others. Non volatile 25%.
Alloys and metallic coatings:0.
Hazardous mixtures of liquids, solids or gases. None

You raise an interesting point though: which manufacturer to believe as there are competing thoughts. Essentially hydration vs. oils. I have wondered about water myself purely from a leather jacket I have which has dried a bit in places and is a bit papery. Areas that pick up natural oil from my skin are soft and supple. Given the classic car connection, I tend to think that Liquid Leather is better for those leathers which were prepared and treated differently to modern coated leathers. 

I've been swayed against conditioners mainly due to my experiences with them. Certainly with Zymol's "Treat" I found it did jack-s*** basically, but smells nice. It made the surface shiny even when wiped off, and then sitting on the seats for a couple of journeys left matte areas where clothing had wiped it off. This suggests that some do indeed just sit on the surface and achieve sod-all. 

If Liquid Leather smelled more like leather rather than so strong and chemically, I'd be up for giving it another twirl.


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## Dr Leather (Sep 8, 2010)

I wondered when Peter would turn up..... My replies are below in blue. I'm afraid you are incorrect on a lot of stuff here; your thoughts were definitely relevant over 30 years ago, but it is pretty well irrelevant these days Peter. Whilst I respect the old and traditional, things are still developing at a rapid pace in the leather world........



Peter Parkinson said:


> I note from the attached threads that Gliptone Liquid Leather is referred to as being "oil and/or lanolin based" it is neither, oils come to the surface in warm weather and lanolin not only damages cow hide but also reduces the hide's ability to "breath", Liquid Leather Conditioner has non of these detremental effects.
> 
> *In modern leathers tanners use fibre substantive synthetic fatliquors. This just shows how out of date you are on a technical level Peter. There is virtually nil fatliquor migration (or fogging) these days as opposed to the leathers you refer to from many years ago.*
> 
> ...


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## Peter Parkinson (Mar 26, 2009)

Dr Leather and I clash again, 

I gather from Dr Leather's reponse to oils and Lanolin in conditioners, that he approves of there inclusion, however as he thinks there all a waste of time, he is unlikely to say so, the car and furniture manufacturers we supply do not, I presume on the advice of their leather suplliers.

technically, leather is "produced" differently today, and I call these "modern" leathers for simple layman understanding, however "modern" leathers suffer no differently from the leathers of 30 years ago, despite the different tanning processes, We get customers with leather damage from water ingress, because they have left a window partly open, on drying the seat, it has left a hard patch with a water mark, at least leather made 30 years ago didn't suffer from a stain after a few hours of wetness. I used the point of a chamois leather as an example of how leather shrinks, the technicalities of how it's tanned is imaterial.
Loading a "PROTECTENT WITH SILICONE, what a joke, Connolly leather suggrested using silicone to Land Rover to reduce the creaking noise their leather made when the new Range Rover seats were sat on, they lost the business, Land Rover bought our conditioner to solve the problem. Silicone is a big no no, one; the customer slides about on a large conventional seat, two; the customer perspirs more and three, costmetic repairs are unworkable without a silicone remover being used, these damage leather.

UV absorbers, these only work as a surface coating, so are quikly rubbed off by clothing, Dr Leather knows this as he states "applied on a regular basis", I think he is disagreeing with me just to disagree. Sun attacks colour and leather fibres, so a product that protects both is what is required, without rubbing off easily. So my statement is quite true, they rub off very easily, so virtually worthless, unless of course you don't use the car.

Dr Leather requires proof that modern leather wears more quickly and cannot resist the heat of a locked, sealed up car, we sell our products world wide and get feed back from all our distributors, the leather in cars made today does not last as long as the leather used in cars 20 years ago, and if you are a car detailer you will see that this is true.

Dr Leather likens me to a an old fashioned, fuddy duddy locked in the past, however many of the largest companies involved in using leather, use our products, they know about the leather thay use, they test our products first and find that they do the job very well in deed.

Dr Leather continues with his unpleasant comments by referring to our Classis Car magazine test successes, no magazine which covers new cars produces comparison tests on after market products, so no details of approvals can be provided.

To WaxOff Wax Off, 
I know you said "If I remember rightly", my comment was not meant as a criticism, I was just supplying a correction, with regard to the smell of our conditioner, most people like it but it can be removed without removing the effects of the product, by diluting our GT12 Cleaner with 80% water and wiping the leather over, this will remove the smell without removing the conditioner.


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## Dr Leather (Sep 8, 2010)

Please see my response in blue.



Peter Parkinson said:


> Dr Leather and I clash again, *Yup*
> 
> I gather from Dr Leather's reponse to oils and Lanolin in conditioners, that he approves of there inclusion *(only if used on older style leathers)*, however as he thinks there all a waste of time, he is unlikely to say so, the car and furniture manufacturers we supply do not, I presume on the advice of their leather suplliers. _*(most likely because they enjoy doubling their sales by selling two products to the poor confused consumer)*_
> 
> ...


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## WaxOnWaxOff (Sep 12, 2010)

The fact that Liquid Leather is always rated by CLASSIC car publications is what made me wonder whether it's suitable on modern leathers. 

As a member of the buying public, I have to say that I don't know what to believe. I know leather can dry out. I know modern leathers are coated. I've experienced "conditioner" that does sweet FA. I've seen before and after photos from users of products in both camps... results that I've not achieved with either approach. 

So who do you believe? 

And what will Liquid Leather do for a modern car interior like the Nappa Leather in my Audi? Again I've seen soem great photos from users of older (90s, early 2000s) models where you could say the leather was in poor condition.


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## juddzey455 (Jan 30, 2009)

Stick to what you know waxonwaxoff...

Having been in the leather industry for 20 years and owning a MK1 focus RS for 5-6 years i KNOW the leather....i'm not guessing whats best

It's poor quality top coated leather, no barms, creams, conditioner etc etc will make any difference, keep it clean IE dirt free and it will last alot better:thumb:


Theres one thing having the info in your head.....what it boils down to is the results which is a hands on "touch" NOT what you read about,

has anyone in this thread delt with a mk1 focus RS?


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## Peter Parkinson (Mar 26, 2009)

It is obvious that Dr Leather and I disagree on virtually everything, he thinks that water does not shrink todays leathers, that lanolin, oil and silicone are advantagious in aftercare leather products, and that all the companies that sell a leather cleaner and a leather conditioner as two different products are ripping the public off, which basically covers them all.

He also insists that the leather in cars today only needs to be kept clean, any further maintenance is a waste of money, plus that our products are only suitable for old Classic cars, because the magazines that cover that market are the only ones that have tested them.

Our sales for classic cars is 40% of our car care market, 60% is for cars 18 months plus, most owners iof these newish cars have just cleaned their leather, all are now noticing perminent creases, and on cars over 4 years old, these are becoming cracks.

With regard to furniture, we supply virtually all the major retail store's aftermarket service departments or their contractors, they go to rectify problems with suites, many of these problems are just a complaint that the leather has gone dull and faded, even though they have used the wipes sold to them, the technicians clean and condition one cushion and suggest the customer contacts ourselves to buy the products the technician has just used. All these suites are less than 3 years old and under warranty. All these are the new modern leathers that have dried out, Dr Leather believes that the problem doesn't exist and states that our products are not suitable and do nothing. 

Well, I leave it up to our readers, you can follow Dr Leather's advice or follow mine, it's your car.


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## Dr Leather (Sep 8, 2010)

Peter - not sure where I said anything about furniture leather as that is a real can of worms regarding the quality of the leather and the finishes used. Once again you are putting words down that I have not mentioned, and making statements about me and my thoughts without full clarification, which is your typical modus operandi. You appear to be quite a bitter person, who twists words. Luckily the forum members are smarter than that and can see my comments within this thread. Anyway - how come you get to plug your product and you're not even a sponsor??? Where are the mods when you need them???

What I'm waiting for though is JudyB to comment seeing as you targeted her first..... come on JudyB!!!!



Peter Parkinson said:


> It is obvious that Dr Leather and I disagree on virtually everything, he thinks that water does not shrink todays leathers, that lanolin, oil and silicone are advantagious in aftercare leather products, and that all the companies that sell a leather cleaner and a leather conditioner as two different products are ripping the public off, which basically covers them all.
> 
> He also insists that the leather in cars today only needs to be kept clean, any further maintenance is a waste of money, plus that our products are only suitable for old Classic cars, because the magazines that cover that market are the only ones that have tested them.
> 
> ...


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