# Bye Bye BMW M135i



## robertdon777 (Nov 3, 2005)

A Class AMG: 360hp 2.0-litre, 40.9mpg CO2 is a trifling 165g/km too.
4WD (well FWD until it looses grip, ie all the time)

360hp matched with 332lb ft of torque and good for a 4.6-second 0-62mph sprint and limited 155mph top speed. Dual-clutch transmission.

Now lets see if they throw the gaunlet down for the Hot Hatch market and get near the bargain M135i price of £30K

Even if it's £35K it will make a decent specced Golf GTI (circa 30K, leather, Bluetooth, Xenons) look very lame just like the BM has.

And how are Audi going to price the New and better S3, the old one was £32K so is the list price going to be less? especially as it's competing against higher powered, cheaper, vehicles which are in the same brand class as them.


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## Brigham1806 (Apr 1, 2011)

Reads up very well, but it will be intresting reading the reviews. 

It will be an intresting car, must book a test drive for the summer, get a real view for it! 

As a Mercedes Fan.. this could be real contender when i swop in 18 months time.


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## SteveTDCi (Feb 8, 2006)

I see it as being in a different market to the M135i, so at 35k its a bargain, whats the M135i with Auto box 32k ? i'd have the merc any day of the week.


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## SteveTDCi (Feb 8, 2006)

http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/audi-s3-sportback-unveiled

Makes the merc look even better value, S Cars are always a step below AMG in my book.


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

SteveTDCi said:


> http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/audi-s3-sportback-unveiled
> 
> Makes the merc look even better value, S Cars are always a step below AMG in my book.


RS models are a step below AMG models. S models aren't anywhere near AMG.

That Merc seems a good car and the more competition the better.

The S3 really seems to be pushed out of the market with the pricing of Merc and BMW.


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## RD55 DUN (Dec 30, 2008)

New A-Class is a really nice looking motor!

As stated earlier, with BMW and Merc moving into the Hot Hatch market, others should really look at their packages. A M135 @ 30-35k is miles better value compared to the 30k Hot Hatches such as new VXR Astra, Golf Gti, S3 etc.


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## Blackroc (Dec 10, 2012)

robertdon777 said:


> A Class AMG: 360hp 2.0-litre, 40.9mpg CO2 is a trifling 165g/km too.
> 4WD (well FWD until it looses grip, ie all the time)
> 
> 360hp matched with 332lb ft of torque and good for a 4.6-second 0-62mph sprint and limited 155mph top speed. Dual-clutch transmission.
> ...


This is an interesting subject as you may understand as I own an M135.

Lets look at the stats to start with. It's official 0-62 is 4.6s, a whole 0.03 seconds quicker than the 1er. Reaction times in a driver vary so much that the figure here is largely irrelevant to be honest.

As a package, they made it FWD until it slips? When all the other AMGs are RWD? Bad show Mercedes. It's a tuned 4 pot engine. So really hasn't any character to it when you drive (except a big exhaust?)

Whilst I haven't sat in one, I've had it said by many people that it lacks space compared to the new F20.

I'm sure it goes well in a straight line, and will have a few gadgets, and yes looks nicer than the F20. But to me it looks like a knee jerk to the M135, so lets bring it on I say....


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## SteveTDCi (Feb 8, 2006)

I think its been in the pipeline a lot longer than the M135i, FWD is fine for most of the time too with the added benefit of 4wd should you need it. Also isn't the AMG engine handbuilt .... I'd have it any day of the week over a BMW for one reason, and thats because its not a BMW


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## Blackroc (Dec 10, 2012)

SteveTDCi said:


> I think its been in the pipeline a lot longer than the M135i, FWD is fine for most of the time too with the added benefit of 4wd should you need it. Also isn't the AMG engine handbuilt .... I'd have it any day of the week over a BMW for one reason, and thats because its not a BMW


Lmao. I get the BMW thing. I'm a VAG fan at heart. But the M135i does everything, and I mean EVERYTHING so very very well that the Merc has immense shoes to fill.

Sports Car
School Run
Long Distance
Track Car 
Agile
Comfortable
Refined
Sporty

Good luck to it if it comes close to what the M135 does


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## Turkleton (Apr 18, 2010)

Be nice to see how they come in to the market, although I think it's daft making all these 'hot hatches' with super saloon type performance.
Still, the A class is a much nicer looking car than a 1 series and I have been impressed with the build quality in my dads C class (BMW fan mainly) so bring it on!


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## robertdon777 (Nov 3, 2005)

I just think it's brilliant that the Hot hatch market has been turned on its head and the mainstream makers are being shown up for what they are. Rip off merchants.

There is no way on gods earth an Astra VXR or Golf GTi should be anywhere near 30K.

They are just adding on 10K for putting a spoiler on, larger wheels and a turbo on a shopping hatch.... caught out... I think so.

I don't care how much of a VAG fan anyone is, if you are looking at a Golf GTi surely for the extra 2K a M135i just slaughters it... Don't care how bad it looks, the Golf is hardly sex on legs. Everyone would drive a the Astra VXR if it was just looks.


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## insanejim69 (Nov 13, 2011)

RD55 DUN said:


> New A-Class is a really nice looking motor!
> 
> As stated earlier, with BMW and Merc moving into the Hot Hatch market, others should really look at their packages. A M135 @ 30-35k is miles better value compared to the 30k Hot Hatches such as new VXR Astra, Golf Gti, S3 etc.


Astons VX have brand new Astra VXR's unregistered for £22500. So nowhere near £30k. :thumb: Remember its a VX, no-one in there right mind pays the RRP price, even on launch day dealers were knocking £3-£4k off list price to sell them.

It does look very nice that Merc. Lets hope its not like the terrible handling RS3 I drove a few weeks back, jesus christ understeer city wasn't the word. Fast yes, fun = no.

James


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

insanejim69 said:


> Astons VX have brand new Astra VXR's unregistered for £22500. So nowhere near £30k. :thumb: Remember its a VX, no-one in there right mind pays the RRP price, even on launch day dealers were knocking £3-£4k off list price to sell them.
> 
> It does look very nice that Merc. Lets hope its not like the terrible handling RS3 I drove a few weeks back, jesus christ understeer city wasn't the word. Fast yes, fun = no.
> 
> James


I've seen pre reg ones for that but not new.

Vauxhall Aberdeen said to me when I enquired that £2k off list was the best they could do.

Depreciation looks bad too. There was a 6 month old with options for £19k.

Reading VXR online many have paid top dollar for one.


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## insanejim69 (Nov 13, 2011)

^^ There is a few base spec VXR models for around £17K if you look for them already !! :lol: 

Yes many people on VXRO specced one from the factory though so paid alot, personally I would have waited for one to arrive at a dealers showroom and get a decent discount  

James


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

insanejim69 said:


> ^^ There is a few base spec VXR models for around £17K if you look for them already !! :lol:
> 
> Yes many people on VXRO specced one from the factory though so paid alot, personally I would have waited for one to arrive at a dealers showroom and get a decent discount
> 
> James


I can see a 25mile old car for £19, 800. 33% off value already. That is really bad.


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## wylie coyote (Jul 15, 2007)

Subjective, but I like the looks of the new A Class and particularly this.:thumb:
If AMG haven't made the ride too much worse than standard it's between this and a new Golf R for my next car. Different I know other than the budget range........anyone managed to get a discount on an AMG? Even a little one..


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## Jord (Apr 3, 2012)

Lets hope it doesn't handle like the RS3 :lol:


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## SteveTDCi (Feb 8, 2006)

Blackroc said:


> Lmao. I get the BMW thing. I'm a VAG fan at heart. But the M135i does everything, and I mean EVERYTHING so very very well that the Merc has immense shoes to fill.
> 
> Sports Car
> School Run
> ...


There are many other cars that fall into that category and if you are prepared to have a couple of cars you would get an even better choice.


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

wylie coyote said:


> Subjective, but I like the looks of the new A Class and particularly this.:thumb:
> If AMG haven't made the ride too much worse than standard it's between this and a new Golf R for my next car. Different I know other than the budget range........anyone managed to get a discount on an AMG? Even a little one..


A Golf isn't in anywhere near the same class. Im perplexed at the opinions of VW particularly on this site.

The last Golf R was more than the Audi S3. The new S3 is £35, 000 making it far too expensive and if the Golf follows the same pricing would make it an insane purchase.


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## Grommit (May 3, 2011)

I won't spoil the surprise or my review but I was lucky enough to test the new VXR and I smiled and giggled every time I started her up and put the foot down. More to come.


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## 182_Blue (Oct 25, 2005)

Nice to see Mercedes putting 4 wheel drive in one of their cars, its something that has always put me off about them and BMW.


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

Grommit said:


> I won't spoil the surprise or my review but I was lucky enough to test the new VXR and I smiled and giggled every time I started her up and put the foot down. More to come.


Buying one?


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## wylie coyote (Jul 15, 2007)

Kerr said:


> A Golf isn't in anywhere near the same class. Im perplexed at the opinions of VW particularly on this site.
> 
> The last Golf R was more than the Audi S3. The new S3 is £35, 000 making it far too expensive and if the Golf follows the same pricing would make it an insane purchase.


Agree on the pricing - I think this AMG and the BMW have really shown up the sporting Golf models for what they are. Too expensive. And if the AMG can return better than 30mpg in the real world with all that power, wow!


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## Grommit (May 3, 2011)

Kerr said:


> Buying one?


That my man is the million dollar question.

I need to test the M135i next to find out :thumb:


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## robertdon777 (Nov 3, 2005)

Shaun said:


> Nice to see Mercedes putting 4 wheel drive in one of their cars, its something that has always put me off about them and BMW.


M135i x coming to the UK!, 4wd 320bhp straight six with a turbo for less than £34k brand new!


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## Blackroc (Dec 10, 2012)

robertdon777 said:


> M135i x coming to the UK!, 4wd 320bhp straight six with a turbo for less than £34k brand new!


It's not coming to the UK yet. BMW don't believe there is a market for it as yet...


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## Blackroc (Dec 10, 2012)

SteveTDCi said:


> There are many other cars that fall into that category and if you are prepared to have a couple of cars you would get an even better choice.


Really?

Name me one new car with the following requirements?

Hatchback
RWD
300+ bhp
6 pot engine?
Available for £30k or under?


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## robertdon777 (Nov 3, 2005)

Blackroc said:


> It's not coming to the UK yet. BMW don't believe there is a market for it as yet...


All the press say it's on its way. Later this year - should be good


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## Maggi200 (Aug 21, 2009)

Blackroc said:


> Really?
> 
> Name me one new car with the following requirements?
> 
> ...


Sort of a pointless exercise as you've simply named parameters that makes a BMW and nothing else. And since there's only the one BMW that fits that...

What I think people mean here is that it can be about more than stats. For instance any car on my drive I would need to look at every day, so that rules the 1 out instantly 

Amg has achieved a similar price/performance it seems using different ingredients


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## Blackroc (Dec 10, 2012)

maggi133 said:


> Sort of a pointless exercise as you've simply named parameters that makes a BMW and nothing else. And since there's only the one BMW that fits that...
> 
> What I think people mean here is that it can be about more than stats. For instance any car on my drive I would need to look at every day, so that rules the 1 out instantly
> 
> Amg has achieved a similar price/performance it seems using different ingredients


My point really is that those WERE my perameters I chose.

I prefer RWD to FWD. over 170+ bhp you just eat front tyres full stop from all the wheelspin.

I'm not a fan of understeer, and I prefer the 6 Pot gurgle that comes from the 3.0lt engine to a 4 pot.

The performance available is epic and completed the package.

If other companies are putting similar performance hot hatches together, then that's great too. Competition is healthy and that's a good thing. But for people to dismiss the car off the back of a badge alone, is shall we say, a little small minded?


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## Bristle Hound (May 31, 2009)

Can I take it 'Kerr', you don't like any VAG cars?  :lol:


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## voon (Apr 28, 2010)

360 HP out of tiny 2 liters and a FWD based AWD? Nah ... I'll take the M135i anytime over that.


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## andy665 (Nov 1, 2005)

wylie coyote said:


> Different I know other than the budget range........anyone managed to get a discount on an AMG? Even a little one..


If you're talking current AMG models then yes, big discounts are available, easily secure a £6k discount on a C63, more for the bigger / more expensive models


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## -Jamie- (Nov 6, 2012)

Blackroc said:


> My point really is that those WERE my perameters I chose.
> 
> I prefer RWD to FWD. over 170+ bhp you just eat front tyres full stop from all the wheelspin.
> 
> ...


I love the M135i and it will probably be my RS250's replacement if 1M prices are still high, But the disagree on your firsy comment. I have 270+bhp and similar torque and with good tyres it will struggle to wheelspin as newer FWD has loads of traction, SO that is a little shortminded to dismiss FWD as well


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## Blackroc (Dec 10, 2012)

Granted I've not driven the newer Megann's that clearly have had tons of work done to improve FWD grip, but tyres alone do not give you grip if there is very little mechanical grip available to start with.

There are very few companies out their able to give cars more than 200bhp without serious handling issues. Even Scirocco Rs serious struggle to get power down and they are using an eDiff to try and control it. My standard 2.0tsi Scirocco was horrific in the wet, likewise our friends Mini Cooper S. 

I'm not suggesting developments haven't made for fantastic in-roads into FWD technology, but they will never win round car enthusiasts due to the front wheels trying to get power down and steer at the same time. How many F1 cars, high performance cars are FWD?

I'm all for healthy competition between manufacturers, as it gives us as the buyer choice, and like I keep saying, that is a good thing.

We all want different things from our cars, and for me and my partner, that was the M135i. We ordered it without a test drive and when very few reviews had even come out. 2 dealerships i contacted about it didn't even know the car existed at that point...The reviews just confirmed what we knew when the car arrived.

That doesn't mean I expect it to tick the same boxes for everyone - or vice versa.


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

Bristle Hound said:


> Can I take it 'Kerr', you don't like any VAG cars?  :lol:


I don't mind them at all. It all depends on what model though.

Is just concerns me that on this site expecially when the discussion is about VW too many people seem to have lofty opinions of their standing forgetting when you are choosing a Golf the competition is the Focus, Astra etc and not Rolls Royce.

Too many aren't very nice to drive in comparison to the competition and too many are painfully overpriced.

They are also not as reliable as the image would suggest.

There is a few gems but they do produce quite a few mediocre cars.


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## SteveTDCi (Feb 8, 2006)

Kerr said:


> Is just concerns me that on this site expecially when the discussion is about VW too many people seem to have lofty opinions of their standing forgetting when you are choosing a Golf the competition is the Focus, Astra etc and not Rolls Royce.
> 
> Too many aren't very nice to drive in comparison to the competition and too many are painfully overpriced.
> 
> ...


To be fair i feel the same could be said about people on here banging on about BMW & Rwd.


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## Blackroc (Dec 10, 2012)

SteveTDCi said:


> To be fair i feel the same could be said about people on here banging on about BMW & Rwd.


Given that this thread is about BMWs, the M135i in particular, if it offends you so much, why post on it?


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## 182_Blue (Oct 25, 2005)

OK, Lets try and be nice now.


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

SteveTDCi said:


> To be fair i feel the same could be said about people on here banging on about BMW & Rwd.


There isn't any argument, rwd is vastly better than fwd. Speak to any good driver or engineer.

The M135i is mentioned a lot for a reason.


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## Bristle Hound (May 31, 2009)

Kerr said:


> There isn't any argument, rwd is vastly better than fwd. Speak to any good driver or engineer.


Everyone has there own opinion Kerr. Define 'good driver' :thumb:



Kerr said:


> The M135i is mentioned a lot for a reason.


Just because it is doesn't mean it's a good car. It may be quick, but that is one ugly mother of a car :doublesho

To be fair mate, not everyone likes BMW's & I appreciate not everyone likes Audi's either, but everyone has their own opinion. I just wish some people would understand that ...  

Just out of interest, what car do you drive Kerr? :car:


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## andy665 (Nov 1, 2005)

Kerr said:


> There isn't any argument, rwd is vastly better than fwd. Speak to any good driver or engineer.


It depends entirely on the context - absolute nonsense to make such a sweeping statement


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

andy665 said:


> It depends entirely on the context - absolute nonsense to make such a sweeping statement


This thread is 300bhp+ road cars so it is very valid.


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## WashMitt (May 27, 2010)

Bristle Hound said:


> Everyone has there own opinion Kerr. Define 'good driver' :thumb:
> 
> Just because it is doesn't mean it's a good car. It may be quick, but that is one ugly mother of a car :doublesho
> 
> ...


Looks are irrelevant really though, everyone see's different things they like in cars, iv got to say I'm with Kerr on the golf thing,

Golfs are decent cars but they are way way overpriced, iv got a friend who is tech at vw and he says go for a scirocco all day, which is why we bought one and its been a great car.

There seems to be a LOT of love for the m135 on here, might be justified might just be that owners of that particular car feel the need to justify it 

There all girls cars anyhow!!!!

No no no I didn't just go there :doublesho


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

Bristle Hound said:


> Everyone has there own opinion Kerr. Define 'good driver' :thumb:
> 
> Just because it is doesn't mean it's a good car. It may be quick, but that is one ugly mother of a car :doublesho
> 
> ...


As per my above comment, this thread is about performance cars.

A good driver is someone who can drive safely with an understanding of what the car is doing and can react to it.

The vast majority of people don't have a clue and wouldn't understand what handling actually means. On saying that most won't ever push their car and it makes no difference on what car they buy.

If you could blind fold people and allow them to drive various cars, they wouldn't be able to tell any difference.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. There does come a point where their opinion is seriously clouded by misconceptions or sheer bias clouding fact.

I've got a BMW 335i coupe at the moment.


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

I agree the M135i isn't a pretty car. None of the hot hatch backs are that pretty with the exception of the Astra VXR with the aero kit and 20 inch wheels in my opinion. 

Everyone who has driven the M135i rates it as a driver's car. 

Most people are seeing the car for what it is. Nobody is claiming it is a Porsche 911 alternative. 

It is RWD drive which many people prefer and also costs more than a FWD. 

It has a sweet 6 cylinder engine which is nicer and smoother than any 4 pot engine. It is also more expensive. 

The level of fit and finish is better than any of the cars in the price bracket. 

It is also significantly faster than any other car in the price bracket. 

There really isn't much alternative at the price.


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## Blackroc (Dec 10, 2012)

WashMitt said:


> Looks are irrelevant really though, everyone see's different things they like in cars, iv got to say I'm with Kerr on the golf thing,
> 
> Golfs are decent cars but they are way way overpriced, iv got a friend who is tech at vw and he says go for a scirocco all day, which is why we bought one and its been a great car.
> 
> ...


Lmao. I don't feel the need to justify it, but some people will happily hate all day long, yet have not even got any idea what it's all about...

Ill gladly take you for a spin in it for you to see just how 'girly' she is.... ;-)


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## WashMitt (May 27, 2010)

Blackroc said:


> Lmao. I don't feel the need to justify it, but some people will happily hate all day long, yet have not even got any idea what it's all about...
> 
> Ill gladly take you for a spin in it for you to see just how 'girly' she is.... ;-)


They are nice motors mate, iv been in one she ragged it all over the place before stopping to adjust her make up of course :thumb:


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## robertdon777 (Nov 3, 2005)

Blackroc said:


> Given that this thread is about BMWs, the M135i in particular, if it offends you so much, why post on it?


It wasn't really about the M135i, (which I rate as the best car pound for pound at doing just about everything you could want in a car)

It was just to highlight the growing competition between the BIG three German manufacturers in the Hot Hatch market.

They seem to have give up on the big power race (RS6 has smaller lower output than previous although quicker) and are now going head to head in the Hot Hatch market.

This can only be a good thing, I remember back in 1988 when a Saph 4x4 Cosworth was 27K brand new. Now look at the M135i and see what a bargain it is, look at the Merc - it's 360bhp 4WD for maybe £35K that does 40mpg!

Praise the Germans and fingers crossed VW start looking at their pricing on the forthcoming 220bhp FWD shopping trolley - hopefully it's competing against the Focus ST in pricing rather than the M135i.

Oh and the Clio RS is growing on me, must be getting old but 5dr Auto with a Turbo in a car that does 40mpg with Petrol as fuel and 200bhp for less than 20K hits a lot of the right buttons.


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## 182_Blue (Oct 25, 2005)

WashMitt said:


> They are nice motors mate, iv been in one she ragged it all over the place before stopping to adjust her make up of course :thumb:


Enough now with the winding up please :thumb:


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## andy665 (Nov 1, 2005)

Kerr said:


> I agree the M135i isn't a pretty car. None of the hot hatch backs are that pretty with the exception of the Astra VXR with the aero kit and 20 inch wheels in my opinion.
> 
> Everyone who has driven the M135i rates it as a driver's car.
> 
> ...


Totally agree but how many people buy with their head, the heart is involved too

People buy what they like not necessarily what is the fastest, smoothest, best VFM - and thank heavens they do - its all down to personal preference

One of my cars is an Alfa and many people think I'm crazy - I don't give a stuff - it was not necessarily a logical or even sensible choice but it was what I wanted - not what I thought I should buy to impress others with

Likewise with which wheels are driven - most people don't know or care, some would always choose FWD, some RWD and others AWD - nice that there is something for everyone in the marketplace


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## Derekh929 (Aug 28, 2011)

I think a test drive is coming up , but amazes me how people by pass M135i because of its badge. I'm a petrol head I like lots of vag cars as well old RS4 , golf GTI, TTRS, and even though I love BMW,s badge would not stop me buying either if great.
I have just about sorted a deal for new motor 330d M Sport Touring and was offed X Drive but stuck to RWD to save tyres and fuel and will get a second hand set of winters, I looked at Audi and Merc as well and drove the X Drive hard


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## Maggi200 (Aug 21, 2009)

When was the last time the A45 was mentioned... IIRC this thread was actually about a Mercedes, and the title merely a joke about a BMW


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## WashMitt (May 27, 2010)

maggi133 said:


> When was the last time the A45 was mentioned... IIRC this thread was actually about a Mercedes, and the title merely a joke about a BMW


IIRC it's about a comparison between the two :thumb:


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## robertdon777 (Nov 3, 2005)

It was just to highlight the growing war between BMW, MERC and AUDI in the hot hatch market.

A market they are set to dominate after years of VW, Peugeot, Ford and Renault owning the arena.

The old guard really need to look and take stock of what they used to do best: SMALL. LIGHT, FWD basic hot hatches.

I believe there is still a big market for sub 20K hot hatches. Not everyone wants 300bhp in a road car.

Take a Clio RS 200 and a M135i and the RS will feel far far more alive on a decent B road. It won't be as comfy, no where near as fast, it will use more fuel and your mrs will hate it - but it will make you re-live those glorious days of sub 1000kg Hot hatchbacks.


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## SteveTDCi (Feb 8, 2006)

I do agree that the premium manufacturers are standing still when it comes to pricing and that the more mainstream are getting more and more expensive, but the same can be said at the lower end. However it's generally excepted that where mainstream has more toys that premium is more basic - look at the new a class to see most of them are way over 26k for a humble diesel model.

some manufactures produce halo cars and I think the m135i is it, it's one to get people into the showroom where people generally cannot afford them and end out walking out with a 116d. For me a fake m and let's be honest the m135i is really a badge engineered car in the same way an engineered by Amg a class diesel is (although one has a proper engine not a diesel) where as for me the Amg a class has more heritage to it even if it doesn't live up to the Amg rwd profile. 

For me while the m135i is undoubtedly a good car it doesn't really look any different to a 116d msport where as a Vxr Astra does look different. The focus st1 is a better bargain.

As for the sapphire cosworth, well the original whale tail started it all and was a mere 15k


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

robertdon777 said:


> It was just to highlight the growing war between BMW, MERC and AUDI in the hot hatch market.
> 
> A market they are set to dominate after years of VW, Peugeot, Ford and Renault owning the arena.
> 
> ...


Here is a video worth a look.






The Focus RS can't shake a Clio off in the real world.

When you read forums you always read people posting that their car is as fast as a,b,c as they were keeping up.

They expect that a faster car zooms away at 50mph faster which really is not the case.

The difference to the eye really isn't actually that much.

Sit in the Focus RS 0-100mph and the thing will feel a mile faster when the gap isn't as significant as the feeling suggests.

Feeling is everything though. The torque of a turbocharged car will always give the feeling of going faster than you really are. Diesel cars are most guilty of that.

Nothing beats the seat sinking feeling though!

To be honest though a good driver with 200bhp would beat a rotten driver with 300bhp with ease.

I watch the youtube videos with guys lapping Knockhill thinking they are driving gods during trackdays.

There was a guy with a Nissan GTR lapping at 1.06 thinking he was Stig. I merely pointed out that Fiesta XR2s with 97BHP which are practically road spec minus the fact they are stripped out lap Knockhill 3-4 secs faster.

One of the best put downs ever before the guy threw a strop, deleted my comments and them removed the video.

Knowing how to drive is far more important that any amount of power.


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## SteveTDCi (Feb 8, 2006)

I remember watching someone drive a mk5 rs2000 around donnigton lapping some of the faster cosworths, I 'm sure the car had hand controls for the driver, he flew


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## robertdon777 (Nov 3, 2005)

I've got a MK5 rs2000 and the reason they lap so fast is because... the rust has done the weight saving for you which helps the power to weight ratio!

I'm trying to justify a Clio RS200, but 1 kid, maybe another errr.


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## SteveTDCi (Feb 8, 2006)

If it doe sn't need to be an everyday car then go for it


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## voon (Apr 28, 2010)

Light & less power vs. heavyier & more power is decided by how many curves a track has. Given the same weight/power ratio, the lighter car will always win.

But in the real world it also means, the lighter maybe didn't have that nice navi, automatic transmission, loads of other options and so on ..... which I don't want to miss


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## Bristle Hound (May 31, 2009)

Kerr said:


> A good driver is someone who can drive safely with an understanding of what the car is doing and can react to it.


Pleased you said that. I'm always very wary of people who say they are good drivers ...



Kerr said:


> On saying that most won't ever push their car and it makes no difference on what car they buy.


Quite correct. However, without the expense of going on a track, where can you safely and legally today



Kerr said:


> Everyone is entitled to their own opinion.


At last! :thumb:



Kerr said:


> There does come a point where their opinion is seriously clouded by misconceptions or sheer bias clouding fact.


But now you've spoiled it! :wall:



Kerr said:


> I've got a BMW 335i coupe at the moment.


At least that explains the BMW RWD bias then  

BTW Very nice motor. Nice to see a petrol as opposed to a diesel as well :thumb:


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

Bristle Hound said:


> Pleased you said that. I'm always very wary of people who say they are good drivers ...
> 
> Quite correct. However, without the expense of going on a track, where can you safely and legally today
> 
> ...


I don't have a BMW bias. This is my first ever BMW and only bought through chance.

I was looking to buy a FWD hot hatch as that was what I was willing to spend on a car and be content with the running costs whilst completely ignoring premium brands thinking they were too expensive.

As I've posted in here before the 335i is very good value for money. Used they can be bought for the same price as a hot hatch(they have gone up a bit now from 2010), it can be run for the same costs as a hot hatch, it is much faster than a hot hatch and it is a nicer place to be than a Ford, VW or Seat etc.

The thought of a 3.0 twin turbo BMW just sounds expensive compared to a 2.0 turbo hatch when in the real world it isn't.

Same with diesel cars. They aren't cost effective unless you do big miles. The 335d isn't as fast, isn't as nice to drive, doesn't sound as good and is automatic only. They cost more to buy when reasonably new and a few years later values begin to close again.

There isn't much difference in real world fuel economy to buy a 335d over a 335i.

I've always given honest and fair opinions. I don't pretend It is the best car in the world or hide any issues I've had.

On the bmw owner forums most owners are the very same. Good honest guys who have bought their cars for very valid reasons with driver enjoyment and value for money the most important factors. Far more so that this perceived BMW snobbery that people assume we have.

It really couldn't be further from the truth.

To be honest through, German cars have a reputation they don't really merit for quality. They all have their fair share of issues but most owners don't like to admit that.

Warranty direct recently released figures of their warranty claims for engine components. Although rather vague it highlights that is you own a German car you are more likely to have warranty work than if you drive a Honda.

BMW sell more 2.0 diesel cars than any other engine and they are the most unreliable BMW engines out there. Far too many problems killing their figures.

The Mini is also a bit embarrassing. Every Mini I've been in has always felt like nuts and bolts and warranty direct back this up.

Sad to see BMW, VW near the bottom and Audi only 2nd from bottom ahead or Rover.


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## andy665 (Nov 1, 2005)

Kerr said:


> BMW sell more 2.0 diesel cars than any other engine and they are the most unreliable BMW engines out there. Far too many problems killing their figures.


Sadly, its a problem having a massive impact on nearly all modern diesel engines

Manufacturers are striving to deliver headline grabbing power and emissions figures whilst EU regulations are forcing the use of ever more complex, costly and unreliable control systems in order to meet them. The latest 2.0 diesel engine in the 320d has taken a forward step in terms of power and emissions but a backwards step in terms if reliability and refinement

Come 2014 and the NoX regulations I think we will start to see the beginning of the end of diesels dominance in the marketplace - NoX is a massively bigger issue for diesels than petrols which is one of the reasons why we have seen so many manufacturers developing smaller, more efficient petrol engines in recent times


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## Derekh929 (Aug 28, 2011)

andy665 said:


> Sadly, its a problem having a massive impact on nearly all modern diesel engines
> 
> Manufacturers are striving to deliver headline grabbing power and emissions figures whilst EU regulations are forcing the use of ever more complex, costly and unreliable control systems in order to meet them. The latest 2.0 diesel engine in the 320d has taken a forward step in terms of power and emissions but a backwards step in terms if reliability and refinement
> 
> Come 2014 and the NoX regulations I think we will start to see the beginning of the end of diesels dominance in the marketplace - NoX is a massively bigger issue for diesels than petrols which is one of the reasons why we have seen so many manufacturers developing smaller, more efficient petrol engines in recent times


Yes I said this on another thread the manufacturers are pushing the engines to far few years back their maps were so conservative that allowed lots of scope for tunning know bust screwed up and all else , weight has got out of hand and due to cost of lightest parts being so expensive for example titanium bolts on Pagani,s new car cost 80'000 € along so cutting weight from engine and heat and friction has lead to crazy ideas like an oil powered timing chain tensioner on cooper s, yes it did not work and I know have a sprung loaded one, also some components are getting thinner and thinner.

What I want is a car as much fun as my e30 325i sport was in 1988 you could drive that car so so and you always knew the limit no fancy electric making you look good, not that I don't think they are life savers.


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