# Pre-coating cleansers?



## Ge03 (Jul 19, 2011)

I need a good paint cleaner that leaves nothing behind, no fillers, oils, anything, leaving the paint bare ready for coating but most either seem to be formulated like the DJ Lime products for pre wax and leave oils or like VP Achiles and use fillers. Problem is that it's not been easy to find which ones use fillers so any help gratefully received. One product I'm aware of is the DP coating prep polish but I can't find a UK stockist.


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## Blackroc (Dec 10, 2012)

I use Auto Finesse Tough Prep before applying sealants. No fillers, no oils just a very good cleanser. Could be worth a look..


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## Blackmondie (Mar 13, 2011)

the new pinnacle black label prep. you can find it in a UK reseller. just do a quick search. thoight it was motorgeek


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## Blueberry (Aug 10, 2007)

Werkstat Prime is a great paint cleanser. Really deep cleans - pulls an immense amount of dirt out.


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## great gonzo (Nov 4, 2010)

Blueberry said:


> Werkstat Prime is a great paint cleanser. Really deep cleans - pulls an immense amount of dirt out.


It is a very good cleaner but it leaves something behind. 
Gonz.


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## great gonzo (Nov 4, 2010)

Do you have any prewax cleaners in your collection?
If so it would be cheaper to use these and get some IPA to remove anything which is left behind. 
Gonz.


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## lowejackson (Feb 23, 2006)

Might be worth giving Motorgeek a call to see if they intend bringing over more DP stuff.

As far as I know, the Serious Performance paint cleaner does not leave anything behind and I am fairly certain AG said their cleaner did not leave anything behind


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## TopTrainer (Jun 6, 2009)

I think IPA is the only true thing to use for zero after.


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## Demetrios72 (Jun 27, 2011)

Zaino AIO is a great cleaner polish, leaves no fillers:thumb:


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## ronwash (Mar 26, 2011)

You need something like R222 cleanser or bilt hamber cleanser,
you can get the new dodo prep something..all will cleanse the paint ready for LSP with nothing left behind.


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## rkelly113 (Oct 12, 2013)

I have CarPro Eraser, seems to do a good job! Bought mine via cyc.


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## evotuning (Oct 16, 2009)

> Auto Finesse Tough Prep





> Werkstat Prime





> Serious Performance paint cleaner





> Zaino AIO





> R222 cleanser


Good luck with using any of this under COATING, as stated by OP


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## Ebbe J (Jun 18, 2008)

Why complicate things. Use a normal finishing polish and wipe it down with a silicone remover/panel wipe. 


Kind regards,

Ebbe


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## cheekymonkey (Mar 15, 2008)

Blackmondie said:


> the new pinnacle black label prep. you can find it in a UK reseller. just do a quick search. thoight it was motorgeek


Have you used it BM, whats it like


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## majcas84 (Aug 24, 2012)

Before a coating you will need something like these: -

CarPro Eraser

Gyeon Prep

GTechniq Panel Wipe

Or IPA


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## Blackmondie (Mar 13, 2011)

cheekymonkey said:


> Have you used it BM, whats it like


no, I haven't had the chance yet, but will sure do very soon.
But I've been reading a lot about it, and it should strip everything and leave the paint ready for a coating.
hope to try it really soon
http://www.autogeek.net/black-label-polish.html
it's stated that it leave the paint wax, silicone and oil free


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## lowejackson (Feb 23, 2006)

evotuning said:


> Good luck with using any of this under COATING, as stated by OP


Point taken. However this leads to another question, why would a pure paint cleaner not be suitable prior to using a sealant. For example, if product X does not leave anything behind then surely what you have is a chemically cleaned bit of paint. Why would this interfere with a coating? I have no experience of using any coatings so my question is not to make a point but simply to understand why a chemical cleaner would not work


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## evotuning (Oct 16, 2009)

And how do You know that cleaner will leave nothing behind ? Because I'm yet to see cleaner that will truly leave nothing behind. Even products designed to use under coating, like mentioned here Pinnacle Black Label or Detailers Pro Prep Polish will leave something behind,it is clearly visible when doing 50/50 test. 

I love when people or manufacturer say that certain polish or cleaner "leave nothing behind" or "don't fill". Well, maybe not all of them leave dedicated fillers, but I'm yet to see polish/cleaner that will not fill to some extent . It is unavoidable , because of nature of liquid like products. 

Only IPA ,panel wipes and similar products will leave nothing behind, because they are alcohol based and will evaporate from paint.


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## cheekymonkey (Mar 15, 2008)

evotuning said:


> And how do You know that cleaner will leave nothing behind ? Because I'm yet to see cleaner that will truly leave nothing behind. Even products designed to use under coating, like mentioned here Pinnacle Black Label or Detailers Pro Prep Polish will leave something behind,i*t is clearly visible when doing 50/50 test. *
> 
> Only IPA ,panel wipes and similar products will leave nothing behind, because they are alcohol based and will evaporate from paint.


Any pictures of the 50/50 and ipa has been know not to remove everything :thumb:


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## evotuning (Oct 16, 2009)

> Any pictures of the 50/50


http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=323313


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## cheekymonkey (Mar 15, 2008)

evotuning said:


> http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=323313


which thread ?


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## evotuning (Oct 16, 2009)

Sorry, wrong link copied, now it is correct.


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## cheekymonkey (Mar 15, 2008)

evotuning said:


> Sorry, wrong link copied, now it is correct.


which is a 50/50 of just the pre clean


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## evotuning (Oct 16, 2009)

Pictures 7 and 8


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## cheekymonkey (Mar 15, 2008)

evotuning said:


> Pictures 7 and 8


so is picture 7 where you havn't used the pre cleaner and picture 8 where you have


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## Alex L (Oct 25, 2005)

How would the Modesta primer stuff get on? Or is that only really any use with the Modesta coatings?


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## Ge03 (Jul 19, 2011)

I'm a bit relieved to see that others can find this as confusing as me.
I use Eraser a lot and it's good but so far I've found that after polishing even after a couple of wipe downs with Eraser, going over with a cleaner such as Werkstat Prime always draws out some grime ingrained in the paint. It's just that so far, the good ones tend to include a glaze or oils. I've seen the Pinnacle Black label cleaner that's now at Motorgeek but I'm curious why all the reviews I've seen from the US about the Black Label surface coating have used the DP cleaner rather than the Black Label one, maybe it's just a price thing?
Sonax are one of the other makers of a pure pre-coating cleaner and that's a similar price to the Black Label. 
If I'm going to lock a paint surface away for at least a year under a coating, I want to know that it's as clean as I can make it. :buffer:


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## Rascal_69 (Sep 20, 2009)

The only ones I use are 

Spies and hector - the best imo
Gtechniq panel wipe
Gyron prep
Carpro eraser
Ipa 

Normally a few wipe downs with spies before any ceramic type of coating.


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## ronwash (Mar 26, 2011)

evotuning said:


> And how do You know that cleaner will leave nothing behind ? Because I'm yet to see cleaner that will truly leave nothing behind. Even products designed to use under coating, like mentioned here Pinnacle Black Label or Detailers Pro Prep Polish will leave something behind,it is clearly visible when doing 50/50 test.
> 
> I love when people or manufacturer say that certain polish or cleaner "leave nothing behind" or "don't fill". Well, maybe not all of them leave dedicated fillers, but I'm yet to see polish/cleaner that will not fill to some extent . It is unavoidable , because of nature of liquid like products.
> 
> Only IPA ,panel wipes and similar products will leave nothing behind, because they are alcohol based and will evaporate from paint.


How do you know what cleanser leave leave something behind or not?
Have you tested it in a lab?
You cant tell which of those products is a 100% pure cleaner or..not!?.
Only a CERTIFIED lab can tell,your words is as good as a guess..
I apply nothing under a coating,just a massive clean&wipe down,
however since the op did ask for it,at least try to think of a cleanser that as much as you know..leave as less as possible behind.


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## evotuning (Oct 16, 2009)

> your words is as good as a guess..


My word is as good as experience from using dozens of cleaners on market. You however must have no clue about this topic, judging after You recommended R222 Cleaner,one of the most oil and filler heavy product , under COATING ! So please don't lecture me about my findings, please.

I don't need testing in lab to see that cleaners fills to extent due to liquid nature and oils in them.

Take swirled flat black car, take any cleaner on market, make a test spot, give it a 30 second go by hand with no pressure,wipe off excess. Good luck with finding one that will not fill. And if product fill, then You just can't say it leave nothing behind, because obviously it did if swirls are filled.

Other test - take any car, polish it to perfection, wipedown with panel wipe. Paint will feel extremely dull and grabby. Again, take any cleaner out there, apply it by hand to small section, and compare how the paint feel when You touch it compared to polished side only.


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## Blackmondie (Mar 13, 2011)

do you have a pic after using the cleaner and then Ipa ro show that it filled?


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## -Raven- (Aug 26, 2010)

Alex L said:


> How would the Modesta primer stuff get on? Or is that only really any use with the Modesta coatings?


Im still waiting for my sample, but it should work for everything (its just like clear coat right?). I don't think it's a cleanser though?


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## -Raven- (Aug 26, 2010)

PolishAngel Invincible might work? 

I haven't tried it with my other ceramic coatings though, only PA Cosmic.....


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## evotuning (Oct 16, 2009)

Ceramic Pro also has this type of product for their coatings.


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## stangalang (Nov 27, 2009)

evotuning said:


> My word is as good as experience from using dozens of cleaners on market. You however must have no clue about this topic, judging after You recommended R222 Cleaner,one of the most oil and filler heavy product , under COATING ! So please don't lecture me about my findings, please.
> 
> I don't need testing in lab to see that cleaners fills to extent due to liquid nature and oils in them.
> 
> ...


I find very similar. Never found something that is applied by machine that doesn't leave ANYTHING behind. Even hand cleansers, they still leave "something". We have tried a few products that seem to swap the dirt in the pores with product itself, bit like a primer. Apply it and your pad is clean, apply coat 2 and there is a lot of dirt pulled, its like the base forces the dirt out.

I personally feel you can't get better than a few wipedowns with a good oil and grease remover, something that has a slow flash so has time to work


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## ronwash (Mar 26, 2011)

evotuning said:


> My word is as good as experience from using dozens of cleaners on market. You however must have no clue about this topic, judging after You recommended R222 Cleaner,one of the most oil and filler heavy product , under COATING ! So please don't lecture me about my findings, please.
> 
> I don't need testing in lab to see that cleaners fills to extent due to liquid nature and oils in them.
> 
> ...


I knew thats going to be the answer..
First of all,i also recommended the BH cleanser and the new dods prep,both not fillers,and much more importantly,not leaving a layer behind!.
by your words,no cleanser will fit a coating BUT all sorts of 9h primers that every company makes today for its own brand.
I dont agree that you HAVE TO get a coatings primer for it to "sit" well on the paint.
Thats what some pepole said about applying glazes before a wax,thats bull**** from my experience,thats exactly what{some of} the coatings manufacturers want you to do,they want you to buy their coatings,but that youll buy their own primers.
So what if a cleanser filles?
Have you tried to apply cquartz on amigo?,dont disparage before you try!.
Thers so many options to work with those products,i suggest youll try,because you just think you know it all!.:thumb:


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## -Raven- (Aug 26, 2010)

stangalang said:


> I personally feel you can't get better than a few wipedowns with a good oil and grease remover, something that has a slow flash so has time to work


yep, a good panel wipe (and then IPA based product just to make sure) is what I'll always use before coatings. Cleanliness is everything for coatings!


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## sbrocks (Jul 5, 2007)

What about Orchard's Luminos? Have a bottle here but havent used it as yet, but they say it removes all oils/fillers prior to applying any sealants etc?


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## evotuning (Oct 16, 2009)

> Have you tried to apply cquartz on amigo?,dont disparage before you try!.
> Thers so many options to work with those products,i suggest youll try,because you just think you know it all!.


Funny fact that I actually did try applying Cquartz both on cleaners and also on polished surfaces that hasn't been wiped down. And guess what happened ? Coating was gone almost immediately.

Also, asking such questions makes me belive that You actually never tried such combinations, because if You did that it wouldn't even come to Your mind asking such questions.

Less theory , more practice I advise


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## ronwash (Mar 26, 2011)

evotuning said:


> Funny fact that I actually did try applying Cquartz both on cleaners and also on polished surfaces that hasn't been wiped down. And guess what happened ? Coating was gone almost immediately.
> 
> Also, asking such questions makes me belive that You actually never tried such combinations, because if You did that it wouldn't even come to Your mind asking such questions.
> 
> Less theory , more practice I advise


No question you tried Exactly that combo i was talking about..very funny.
Youre the god of detailing:lol:
I saw your arrogant attitude towards other members and even towards sponsers on here,gyeon is the last victim,i think..
you just a child,the only car you ever worked on is the black seat always on your posts..
Youre very young,both on age and on detaling,i suggest you change your attitude,because i know for a fact im not the only one that dont like your approach,not needed on here!.


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## DJ X-Ray (Sep 2, 2012)

Panel Wipe for me after any form of polishing and before any lsp..


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## evotuning (Oct 16, 2009)

ronwash said:


> No question you tried Exactly that combo i was talking about..very funny.
> Youre the god of detailing:lol:
> I saw your arrogant attitude towards other members and even towards sponsers on here,gyeon is the last victim,i think..
> you just a child,the only car you ever worked on is the black seat always on your posts..
> Youre very young,both on age and on detaling,i suggest you change your attitude,because i know for a fact im not the only one that dont like your approach,not needed on here!.


Good sir, two things :

First of all - do some practice in reading with understanding. I didn't say I tried combo You mentioned. I only said I tried "cleaners" in general.

Secondly - You don't know how much You have just embarrassed yourself with statement You have made about my person. I'm former employee of Swissvax for over two years. Do some counting about possible number of cars I've made. And I hope You do realise what kind of cars that would be  Not mentioning ones I did by myself since 2009, but that's not place or topic to discuss this.

My advise - I find You one more time talking b****t about my person, I will report You to DW authorithes for this. If You have nothing relevant to say about topic itself, and all You can do is personal attacks, then stay away from internet forum.


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## -Kev- (Oct 30, 2007)

and back on topic please!! rather than personal attacks on the forum leaving us a mess to tidy up, use the report button or PM one of us if you're not happy with another member.


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## DJ X-Ray (Sep 2, 2012)

Ge03 said:


> I'm a bit relieved to see that others can find this as confusing as me.
> I use Eraser a lot and it's good but so far I've found that after polishing even after a couple of wipe downs with Eraser, going over with a cleaner such as Werkstat Prime always draws out some grime ingrained in the paint. It's just that so far, the good ones tend to include a glaze or oils. I've seen the Pinnacle Black label cleaner that's now at Motorgeek but I'm curious why all the reviews I've seen from the US about the Black Label surface coating have used the DP cleaner rather than the Black Label one, maybe it's just a price thing?
> Sonax are one of the other makers of a pure pre-coating cleaner and that's a similar price to the Black Label.
> If I'm going to lock a paint surface away for at least a year under a coating, I want to know that it's as clean as I can make it. :buffer:


Try spies hecker, that's what i use which i get from my uncle who owns a bodyshop and that's what they use down there:thumb: that will leave your laquer perfectly clean, trust me. Sometimes they have UPol as well which is also good. I just grab whatever's available as it's free:lol: :beer:


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## Blackmondie (Mar 13, 2011)

I don't know what coating you were going to apply, but most have a pre- cleaner or even a primer these days. Which comes to show that the paint doesn't need to be 100% clean, as no cleaner leaves it completely clean, or now get a primer for better bonding...


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## toni (Oct 30, 2005)

evotuning said:


> Other test - take any car, polish it to perfection, wipedown with panel wipe. Paint will feel extremely dull and grabby. Again, take any cleaner out there, apply it by hand to small section, and compare how the paint feel when You touch it compared to polished side only.


Have you tried Sonax Premium Class Paint Cleaner? That's exactly how it leaves the paint, squeaky-clean. Haven't used a coating over it yet, but it would be the only one I would try it without a solvent wipedown.


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## evotuning (Oct 16, 2009)

I wouldn't compare it to surface after polishing and wipedown, because for me that's other kind of "squeaky feel". Hard to describe by words though  But this could be good example, as Sonax recommend using it under their Premium coating.


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## Ge03 (Jul 19, 2011)

The Detailers Pro cleaner that I'd like to get has a big price advantage over products like the Black Label & the Sonax in that it's US price is $29.99 for 32oz bottle, which I work out to be approximately a quarter of the price of the others.


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## toni (Oct 30, 2005)

evotuning said:


> I wouldn't compare it to surface after polishing and wipedown, because for me that's other kind of "squeaky feel". Hard to describe by words though  But this could be good example, as Sonax recommend using it under their Premium coating.


I mean that literally, the paint squeaks when wiping it with a MF cloth


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## Rod (Sep 15, 2013)

What about carpro eraser? Seem to be very good.


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## lowejackson (Feb 23, 2006)

evotuning said:


> And how do You know that cleaner will leave nothing behind ? Because I'm yet to see cleaner that will truly leave nothing behind. Even products designed to use under coating, like mentioned here Pinnacle Black Label or Detailers Pro Prep Polish will leave something behind,it is clearly visible when doing 50/50 test.
> 
> I love when people or manufacturer say that certain polish or cleaner "leave nothing behind" or "don't fill". Well, maybe not all of them leave dedicated fillers, but I'm yet to see polish/cleaner that will not fill to some extent . It is unavoidable , because of nature of liquid like products.
> 
> Only IPA ,panel wipes and similar products will leave nothing behind, because they are alcohol based and will evaporate from paint.


You make an important point about leaving something on the paint. Autoglym, for example have repeatedly stated their paint cleaner will not leave anything on the paint. Based upon what you have said where it almost inevitable that a liquid cleaner will leave something, this makes me wonder if there is a meaningful test for confirming if any paint is perfectly clean.

I have no reason to doubt Autoglyms statement and equally I have no reason to doubt yours but this leaves me with two conflicting views. Could it be that a cleaner does leave some kind of residue as a result of insufficient wiping after application. IPA does seem to have become the default product for cleaning up after polishing and I am not about to question this but if IPA is not wiped away it will leave a small amount of residue. I wonder if this is the same as with a paint cleaner.

It may seem that I am flogging this point but I really am interested in why a pure paint cleaner cannot be used prior to using a coating


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## Clyde (Feb 15, 2012)

Gtech panel wipe was proven to be the only product that removed all residues and fillers from cleansers. Tested along side all the usual suspects being eraser, IPA, panel wipe to name a few.


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## Ge03 (Jul 19, 2011)

Clyde said:


> Gtech panel wipe was proven to be the only product that removed all residues and fillers from cleansers. Tested along side all the usual suspects being eraser, IPA, panel wipe to name a few.


Do you have a link that details that testing please? I've been trying to figure out how this could be tested.

I think surface cleaning is only a part of what's needed. Other products have shown that impurities can be ingrained in the paint and that chemical cleaners can lift these out. I think the ideal product needs to both lift ingrained dirt and leave a clean surface.


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## evotuning (Oct 16, 2009)

> You make an important point about leaving something on the paint. Autoglym, for example have repeatedly stated their paint cleaner will not leave anything on the paint. Based upon what you have said where it almost inevitable that a liquid cleaner will leave something, this makes me wonder if there is a meaningful test for confirming if any paint is perfectly clean.
> 
> I have no reason to doubt Autoglyms statement and equally I have no reason to doubt yours but this leaves me with two conflicting views. Could it be that a cleaner does leave some kind of residue as a result of insufficient wiping after application. IPA does seem to have become the default product for cleaning up after polishing and I am not about to question this but if IPA is not wiped away it will leave a small amount of residue. I wonder if this is the same as with a paint cleaner.
> 
> It may seem that I am flogging this point but I really am interested in why a pure paint cleaner cannot be used prior to using a coating


I guess that You are referring to HD Cleanser. If so, take a look :

http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=146034

OP mentions about filling ability of this product. Maybe AG meant that it doesn't have "dedicated" fillers as reason to say it left nothing behind, but it certainly leaves sth behind, if it is capable to hide even minor swirls.


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## Blackmondie (Mar 13, 2011)

how about the nanolex paint cleaner? anyone tested that one yet?


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## Alex L (Oct 25, 2005)

I'd say anything polish/aio/pre-cleaner wise will leave something on the paint.

In my experience things like IPA/Eraser are a good start but even after using those on polished panels I've still had oil smears. they clean to a point, but aren't the be all that everyone makes out.

I'd rather polish and use IPA/Eraser to clean the majority and then have a recommend primer for use before a coating, something that's going to clean a bit deeper and leave behind a solid base for the coating to bond too.

kind of like using ZAIO before Z2/Z5 or Escalate Lotion before Master Sealant - the list goes on.


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## Clyde (Feb 15, 2012)

Ge03 said:


> Do you have a link that details that testing please? I've been trying to figure out how this could be tested.
> 
> I think surface cleaning is only a part of what's needed. Other products have shown that impurities can be ingrained in the paint and that chemical cleaners can lift these out. I think the ideal product needs to both lift ingrained dirt and leave a clean surface.


Sorry no link as it was during a training day at KDS. I regularly used Eraser up until that point. No gimmicks just a straight up test to show various products during the polishing stage to see how they compared against each other.


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## sm81 (May 14, 2011)

And how you can see differences?


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## -Kev- (Oct 30, 2007)

ive seen a comparason test of fillers at KDS, can't recall the exact products used but you could easily see what fillers were left even after IPA and the likes were used..


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## DJBAILEY (May 7, 2011)

The DP Coating Prep Polish and then a wipe down with a MF misted with IPA mixture (20-30% clean side of MF for each panel) has left the squeakiest clean paint surface I've ever felt.


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## DJBAILEY (May 7, 2011)

Surprised that the AF Tough Prep is listed on here as leaving fillers. I thought the whole idea of the product was to leave nothing behind.


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## Rascal_69 (Sep 20, 2009)

DJBAILEY said:


> Surprised that the AF Tough Prep is listed on here as leaving fillers. I thought the whole idea of the product was to leave nothing behind.


It is perfect for tough coat etc on top.

But I think the topic is about a pre - ceramic coating cleaner


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