# do waxes/sealents add to shine



## dis (Feb 3, 2012)

hi guys,do waxes and sealents add anything to the overall finish/shine?
i thought a polish/glaze gives you the shine and a wax/sealent purely protects the shine?
but after reading some of the threads on waxes im not sure.
im currently useing a/g egp,but thinking of trying a wax on my silver motor.

thanks


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## Kash-Jnr (Mar 24, 2013)

Ask Junkman..


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## ardenvxr (May 22, 2013)

i would polish the hell out of it first then protect what you have achieved with a wax or sealant


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## dis (Feb 3, 2012)

yeah will polish first,but just thinking of trying the wax route and not sure if a wax adds anything to the shine.


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## cheekymonkey (Mar 15, 2008)

yep sure does


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## xJay1337 (Jul 20, 2012)

No they don't ADD TO SHINE.

Waxes and sealants may fill up any minor imperfections and thus giving the appearance of improved shine.
On a perfectly polished vehicle an LSP will add no extra depth or gloss unless it's something like Cquartz where it in effects has a darkening effect through the addition of further layers of substrate.

Your regular wax etc will add NAFF ALL.

Polish for the shine and wax/seal to protect and aid future cleaning etc.


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## dis (Feb 3, 2012)

so,what wax should i be looking at?
car is silver if that helps?

thanks


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## efib (Sep 18, 2012)

It does make a huge difference in a not flawless paint.
I also noticed a small difference in a just machine polished car, it wasn't much but it was there.


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## Flakey (May 5, 2013)

dis said:


> so,what wax should i be looking at?
> car is silver if that helps?
> 
> thanks


Autoglym HD Wax? You'd be able to see if their wax looks any different from their sealant. Plus, HD is extremely glossy so a good choice for a silver.


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## Suba (Feb 2, 2013)

Ok - I'm going to stick my neck out and say they do add shine/depth or whatever else you want to call it.

While I agree that having well polished paint is the key to a good finish, a wax or sealant will alter the optical property of the paint whatever is beneath it, and not simply add protection.

Whether someone thinks it adds anything positive is subjective (and usually differs wildly between people and is the source of many a heated debate - see DW for details!!)

But it's basic physics that if you apply anything that affects the transmission of light (thinking here about refraction, reflectivity, absorption etc) you will see an effect.

[awaits flames]


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## stangalang (Nov 27, 2009)

Yes they absolutely can. There are sh!t loads of videos on you tube if people can't test them themselves. They can add to depth, gloss and clarity of the finish. But this won't be permanent. What i will say is that you will almost never add to the "shine" or "gloss" of a perfectly polished panel, but you can darken the finish. Its all about product choice and application


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## -Kev- (Oct 30, 2007)

they can add a marginal difference, although on silver you could use a different product on every panel and not see any real difference..


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## stangalang (Nov 27, 2009)

Kev makes a good point on the colour. Its much less prominent on a light car. Deep cleaning whites and silvers can help a lot also


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## ZetecEmma (May 20, 2013)

Honestly, this is my car hand polished with srp and then dodo juice supernatural hybrid applied 2 coats, 

I used to use srp followed by turtle wax and never got results like this!!
Please ignore the black spots as they were spots of dust on my ca,era lens that I forgot to clean, but it shows that the image is un edited.


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## Suba (Feb 2, 2013)

Great shot!


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## -Raven- (Aug 26, 2010)

I'm in the yes camp. 

Even after you have mirror blinged the crap out of your paint, you can easily adjust the looks with a wax or sealant. Adding some oils or polymers can add a real richness / wetness / depth to it. :thumb:


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## Alex L (Oct 25, 2005)

hmmm, do I dare comment :lol::lol::lol:



Kash-Jnr said:


> Ask Junkman..


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## djgregory (Apr 2, 2013)

stangalang said:


> Yes they absolutely can. There are sh!t loads of videos on you tube if people can't test them themselves. They can add to depth, gloss and clarity of the finish. But this won't be permanent. What i will say is that you will almost never add to the "shine" or "gloss" of a perfectly polished panel, but you can darken the finish. Its all about product choice and application


How do you measure a car that is more "glossy" or "shiny" due to a LSP that has been added? It may appear more shiny but that just may be the angle you are looking at it.


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## AndyA4TDI (May 7, 2012)

My A4 paint is polished with Megs 205 and a LC HT Crimson pad, looks great, looks even better to me with a nice layer or two of Angelwax Desirable. This and Vics Red are the two waxes that add to the shine. Just my observations.


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## stangalang (Nov 27, 2009)

djgregory said:


> How do you measure a car that is more "glossy" or "shiny" due to a LSP that has been added? It may appear more shiny but that just may be the angle you are looking at it.


One video, one example, many boxes ticked. Check out threads on here also.


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## djgregory (Apr 2, 2013)

But that dosent prove anything? There is no test that gurantees the LSP adds any shine.

Can you link me the video so i can watch later on today.


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## nick.s (Dec 21, 2009)

I do believe Cuey did a test using a glossmeter.

Personal opinion - whether it 'adds' something is debatable. But it does do something. As mentioned, you are putting a substance on that is affecting how the light reflects/refracts. Sealants made my silver Vectra appear more glassy, waxes muted the flake and shine TO MY EYES.


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## stangalang (Nov 27, 2009)

djgregory said:


> But that dosent prove anything? There is no test that gurantees the LSP adds any shine.
> 
> Can you link me the video so i can watch later on today.


Sorry, my bad, should have been attached






And I'm not guaranteeing that every lsp will add, the question is "can" they, and if you are clever, they can

Like i said, there are threads on here with proof, that people took the time to write. I have proven it in my workshop under strong lighting with an audience on more than one occasion


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## Alex L (Oct 25, 2005)

I always like this photo:



Tom_watts said:


> Here's a couple of pictures I got from a training day with Marc (heavenly) Various different waxes applied after correction.


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## djgregory (Apr 2, 2013)

stangalang said:


> Sorry, my bad, should have been attached
> 
> soft99 fusso coat - YouTube
> 
> ...


Thank you, i will watch this later.

Dam work blocking YouTube.


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## Berylburton (Sep 14, 2013)

Alex L said:


> I always like this photo:


I think that photo shows that the difference is marginal and you need them to be side by side on the same panel to see the difference. However in many cases they just look different not 'Added to the Shine'

If you had two identical cars in the same light with two products that on the same panel look different, I would suggest that you would hard pressed to tell the difference.

As with all these arguments the language used can be very unhelpful.

'Huge Difference'
'Blows it away'
'Night and Day Difference'

These phrases are not contributing to the debate just fuelling arguments.

I have always taken the view that Polishing is about shine Waxing is about protection. Even if there is some visual differences in waxes.


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## -Raven- (Aug 26, 2010)

Berylburton said:


> I think that photo shows that the difference is marginal and you need them to be side by side on the same panel to see the difference. However in many cases they just look different not 'Added to the Shine'
> 
> If you had two identical cars in the same light with two products that on the same panel look different, I would suggest that you would hard pressed to tell the difference.
> 
> ...


Ignoring the jetting wet gloss a coating adds to perfectly polished paint (you really got to experience it!), here is a darkening effect test with a few ArtDeShine coatings I did for a bit of fun.

http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=309242


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## RaceGlazer (Jan 10, 2007)

The assumption being made here is that the OP is going to (machine) polish his paintwork.

If he's asking this kind of question I'm not sure he's that into this lark to be likely to do that.

So its possibly a case of a pre-wax and wax on top. Which si what I did to a silver Fiesta last week and posted pics up on the Hybrid Blue thread on the Race Glaze/Morethanpolish section. Here you can clearly see the difference this made.


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## Jonny_R (Oct 23, 2012)

RaceGlazer said:


> The assumption being made here is that the OP is going to (machine) polish his paintwork.
> 
> If he's asking this kind of question I'm not sure he's that into this lark to be likely to do that.
> 
> So its possibly a case of a pre-wax and wax on top. Which si what I did to a silver Fiesta last week and posted pics up on the Hybrid Blue thread on the Race Glaze/Morethanpolish section. Here you can clearly see the difference this made.


+1 i would assume the OP will be SRP by hand and then onto LSP so as RaceGlazer says he is going to notice no difference atall

Even more so that he has a silver car

OP if your happy with EGP then stick with it


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## DJ X-Ray (Sep 2, 2012)

Gloss is an optical property of a surface to
reflect light in a specular (mirror-like)
direction. It is one of a number of important
parameters that are used to describe the
visual appearance of an object. The factors
that affect gloss are the refractive index of the
material, the angle of incident light and the
surface topography.
Of the above, the last two components are
responsible for the apparent gloss:
Specular reflection – the main component
which is the amount of light reflected from
a surface in an equal and opposite direction
to the angle of light striking it (incident
light).
Diffuse reflection – the amount of light that
is scattered over a range of directions.


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## The_Bouncer (Nov 24, 2010)

DJ X-Ray said:


> Gloss is an optical property of a surface to
> reflect light in a specular (mirror-like)
> direction. It is one of a number of important
> parameters that are used to describe the
> ...


Indeed.

( short summary )

what we are looking at for sure is refractive index based upon light reflection/refraction.

Everything has a refractive index, even water. A car wax contains carriers and oils, all of which have an index and it's this ( especially vehicles with metallic paints ) that 'some products' can cause what some may see as 'muting' due to it's blend.

Carnauba has a mid range index which is why some may argue a nuba wax gives a 'warm glow' to paints and why Sealants ( the good ones ) have a higher index thus giving a sharper reflection like finish.

As I said a wax construction is made up of many parts and indeed how it's ingredients work. - The solvents in the wax are designed to 'evaporate' upon application leaving the interaction of the blend to do it's job. > It's this circumstance an argument could be made that a product imparts a higher gloss through the measurements of a gloss meter etc. - How long and what increase in gloss % that would remain on the vehicle for depends on the blend/ingredients and it's makeup.

If this is the case then one could argue that you could take a complete paint corrected panel and add a layer of wax over it that could enhance/stabilise or mute it's appearance.

There are a million things at play here. what are the wax ingredients ? - some can be low blend, cheaper end of the scale which will not assist in the visual optics, some will mute and some will not show much difference. Hence why there are a hundred different waxes that do different things.

One thing is for sure - you will not get the gloss or the levels of what you are looking for on a old beaten up contaminated panel - a wax is not a product you can put on and expect to turn any car into a miracle finish - Prep is needed to get the best visual perspective you can.

Only once you have that, can you then apply a wax.

The choice or 'best' product ? - It's our own pair of eyes on our own car in our own preparation.

:wave:


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## -Raven- (Aug 26, 2010)

The_Bouncer said:


> One thing is for sure - you will not get the gloss or the levels of what you are looking for on a old beaten up contaminated panel - a wax is not a product you can put on and expect to turn any car into a miracle finish - Prep is needed to get the best visual perspective you can.


Interestingly, check out what coatings such as Nyalic and Nano-Clear will do on even heavily oxidised paint!


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## The_Bouncer (Nov 24, 2010)

^^ Indeed

the chemistry these days is advancing at a fast pace - we will see so many changes in the next few years - some of this stuff is amazing.


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## dis (Feb 3, 2012)

first of thanks.
i would be polishing by hand,and i am generally happy with my egp but thinking of trying a wax and was not sure wether wax/sealent adds anything to the overall finish.
think i will try a wax and see for myself wether i prefer wax or sealents.
is srp the best/favourite if applying by hand?
once again thanks


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## Alex L (Oct 25, 2005)

Berylburton said:


> I think that photo shows that the difference is marginal and you need them to be side by side on the same panel to see the difference. However in many cases they just look different not 'Added to the Shine'
> 
> If you had two identical cars in the same light with two products that on the same panel look different, I would suggest that you would hard pressed to tell the difference.
> 
> ...


Talk about moving the goal posts to suit your own ideas 

You posts reminds me of the Top Gear episode where they raced a Skoda Yeti against a Ferrari.


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## Flakey (May 5, 2013)

dis said:


> first of thanks.
> i would be polishing by hand,and i am generally happy with my egp but thinking of trying a wax and was not sure wether wax/sealent adds anything to the overall finish.
> think i will try a wax and see for myself wether i prefer wax or sealents.
> is srp the best/favourite if applying by hand?
> once again thanks


SRP is designed for use by hand and it does a fantastic job.
And yes, unless you try a wax you will never know the difference.


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## cheekymonkey (Mar 15, 2008)

Alex L said:


> Talk about moving the goal posts to suit your own ideas
> 
> You posts reminds me of the Top Gear episode where they raced a Skoda Yeti against a Ferrari.


+ 1 with that


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## xJay1337 (Jul 20, 2012)

Alex L said:


> Talk about moving the goal posts to suit your own ideas
> 
> You posts reminds me of the Top Gear episode where they raced a Skoda Yeti against a Ferrari.


But what he said is completely right.

People who are like "I used dodo juice/auto finesse/zymol wax on my car and it's amazing night and day difference to how it was before" are talking poopie lol :lol:

Where as they may say "I used <wax> and noticed a very very slight visual improvement in gloss" which may be true. To say that people waxing a car makes it shinier is really quite unfactual.

Polishing is what gives you the shine. Anyone can say anything but for a great paint finish you polish, you don't wax...


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## Bevvo (Feb 1, 2013)

I would've thought it was quite easy to answer the original question.

When your shoes are looking shabby what do you put on them....wax. Spread it on, let it dry a little, and then buff it off (does that sound familiar?). Result is shiny shoes.

Now that's that answered, what else should we all bicker about?:lol:


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## cheekymonkey (Mar 15, 2008)

xJay1337 said:


> But what he said is completely right.
> 
> People who are like "I used dodo juice/auto finesse/zymol wax on my car and it's amazing night and day difference to how it was before" are talking poopie lol :lol:
> 
> ...


i dont recall anybody saying the diffrence was night and day, Its been proved many times that an lsp can add to the finish.
An lsp can add to the sine as cuey's test showed.


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## xJay1337 (Jul 20, 2012)

You hear and read it all the time. Especially on here!!!

People throw around terms on here like chlamydia at a dogging festival.
this wax really made my flake pop!!!
this sealant really added a lovely depth of shine
this lsp is amazing really great finish
this new wax is amazing best finish ever!!

Where as factually as a detailer I know that your LSP adds 5%, maybe 10%, as I said on my post on the first page, where they actually add a darkening effect, your regular wax/sealant that most people use on a daily basis doesn't do this.
The shine, quality of the finish and what not, comes from hours of polishing and paint correction. You apply a wax to protect that, to enable easier future washing, help prevent contaminents from bonding directly with the paint, meaning less wash marring, etc.

At the end of the day people can have their opinions and I'm leaving it at that.


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## cheekymonkey (Mar 15, 2008)

xJay1337 said:


> You hear and read it all the time. Especially on here!!!
> 
> People throw around terms on here like chlamydia at a dogging festival.
> this wax really made my flake pop!!!
> ...


so your saying lsp's do add to the finish


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## Rayner (Aug 16, 2012)

Wouldn't it be easier to ban the words Wax and shine in the same sentence and also ban all and prep when in the same sentence? 

It's actually been longer than I expected for this subject to come up AGAIN... How long this time


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## Bevvo (Feb 1, 2013)

Of course he is. He even said it himself in his opening gambit (post 6):

*"Waxes and sealants may fill up any minor imperfections and thus giving the appearance of improved shine."*

If shine is not all about appearance then what is it about?


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## Suba (Feb 2, 2013)

I think most people would agree that correcting paintwork is the key to having a great finish, and that if carried out properly will probably have significantly more visual effect than a typical LSP application alone.

But an LSP will have an effect as well, particularly if it is *layered*. And this happens even if your paintwork is scratched, swirled, etc. (and the difference will probably be more noticeable on bad paintwork.)

By applying an LSP you are putting a layer of product onto the paint/clearcoat surface and this will begin to fill some of the paint defects and have a smoothing effect. As you add more layers this smoothing effect becomes greater - this is why, for example, you apply multiple layers of varnish to wood to create a silky-smooth surface (this might need a diagram!).

The problem with the LSP only approach is that it may take many layers of LSP to achieve a good effect, and as soon as you have finally finished, the LSP will begin to degrade and over time reveal those underlying paint defects. And from certain angles you will see the paint defects through the LSP anyway.

However, an LSP can add things that a paint correction cannot, such as 'warmth', flake-pop etc as it is changing the nature of the light reaching and reflected from the paint surface as well as from itself.

So to end the ramble, ultimately the best visual effect (oh so subjective) is with both a paint correction AND a decent LSP.


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## xJay1337 (Jul 20, 2012)

Bevvo said:


> Of course he is. He even said it himself in his opening gambit (post 6):
> 
> *"Waxes and sealants may fill up any minor imperfections and thus giving the appearance of improved shine."*
> 
> If shine is not all about appearance then what is it about?


I know what I said.
That is due to the characteristic of filling in scratches. Got a car that's swirled to hell and no lsp? Cover it in water. The water will fill in any scratches, marks, and create a perfect crisp reflection.
Going to say that water can be used as an LSP? (or that water can be used to correct/improve poor paintwork?)

I said clearly that LSP is "improving" the finish by filling in swirls and scratches. This is not akin to saying that an LSP will improve a finish on an already polished car.


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## waqasr (Oct 22, 2011)

Does anyone know how thick the coat of wax would be on the paint once buffed off? Pretty dam thin id think. Would that be enough to change what paint looks like? In my case i did certainly notice a difference between the two lsps ive used. Colly 845 and dodo snh.


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## Bevvo (Feb 1, 2013)

xJay1337 said:


> I said clearly that LSP is "improving" the finish by filling in swirls and scratches. This is not akin to saying that an LSP will improve a finish on an already polished car.


The original question was "do waxes and sealents add anything to the overall finish/shine?"

That will be a "Yes (with caveats)" then?


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## xJay1337 (Jul 20, 2012)

Is that not what I said in my original post? :lol:


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## Alex L (Oct 25, 2005)

Bevvo said:


> I would've thought it was quite easy to answer the original question.
> 
> When your shoes are looking shabby what do you put on them....wax. Spread it on, let it dry a little, and then buff it off (does that sound familiar?). Result is shiny shoes.
> 
> Now that's that answered, what else should we all bicker about?:lol:


And if you go all army on on them the shine and gloss you'll get is insane :thumb:


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## Bevvo (Feb 1, 2013)

xJay1337 said:


> Is that not what I said in my original post? :lol:


In your original post you said way more than that. There was no need for the arrogance of:

_"No they don't ADD TO SHINE." & "Your regular wax etc will add NAFF ALL."_

In the same post you contradicted yourself with "_Waxes and sealants may fill up any minor imperfections and thus giving the appearance of improved shine."_

And in post #38 _"To say that people waxing a car makes it shinier is really quite unfactual."_

Contradicting yourself again in post #41 _"Where as factually as a detailer I know that your LSP adds 5%, maybe 10%"_

Take the average car on the street, waxing it will add to the overall finish/shine. Polishing it first would make it better. We all agree. Let's leave it at that.


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## Mirror Finish Details (Aug 21, 2008)

My wife's car is silver and I take it to the local car wash, yes I know I should not but I do and it hardly has any swirls in the paint, it has 3 coats of Finest on it. I dread even washing my black car, it even has swirls driving past the car wash. BMW paint v Korean Paint. I am going to wet sand my car anyway so will just go through the local car wash.


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## xJay1337 (Jul 20, 2012)

Bevvo said:


> In your original post you said way more than that. There was no need for the arrogance of:
> 
> _"No they don't ADD TO SHINE." & "Your regular wax etc will add NAFF ALL."_
> 
> ...


There is no contradiction really.
I should have just been more clear in my responses. :lol:

*Waxes/LSPs don't add to the shine. They appear to improve the finish by filling in swirls. And as I said before, if you rinse your car down your swirls will also go (as they are filled in by the water). This is a fact.

I then made the point about how you wouldn't say water is used to improve the finish of your car..*

My problem is on here a lot of mis information is posted and in my experience is that a Wax / LSP does not increase the shine on it's own. It increases shine by filling in swirls and scratches, which can be said of any product that you apply on the paint. On a perfectly polished car you will not see any improvement with an honest eye. Of course people who do this would say... I use wax on the sole purpose of protecting the shine created by shining to improve self cleaning, reduce wash marring by enabling easier removal of dirt and such like.

Regarding the bold point - I agree. But for the reasons I have bolded above in my post.


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## DJBAILEY (May 7, 2011)

To me the paint almost always looks its best prior to applying the sealant or wax (not talking about coatings). The sealant/wax almost always changes the way the paint looks. It may be very minute but there are subtle changes due to the way the light reflects/refracts on the new surface. Sometimes that change looks like it is for the better sometimes its not. That is where the artistry comes in with this type of work. Knowing which of your sealants/waxes do what with a certain color and paint type. This is why I don't understand detailer's that limit themselves to only 1 sealant/wax.

Why does this have to one way or the other? Life is not black and white, its mostly gray.


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## Flakey (May 5, 2013)

If anybody thinks waxes & sealants do not add anything to the look - polish your car to perfection and split the panel into two and have a go with a sealant on one half and wax on the other. The proof of the pudding is in the eating. I recently tried this with Duragloss 105 on one panel and BH Finis Wax on another. Those two panels looked so different from each other.


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## DJBAILEY (May 7, 2011)

I agree. They do change the look. Its just subjective whether its 'better' or 'worse'.


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