# Stock for new start up!



## Select Detailing (Feb 19, 2009)

Hi People..

As your aware I am in the process off starting up and buying in stock.

I have already brought in a bulk order from autoglym for my day to day stuff and also brought stock from greame in swindon which gave me a great detail. 
The problem is i would like to buy the following below and really dont know what is good as I have limited experience.

1. Cutting Compounds, Only ever used the sonus and poorboys ssr range, Is there better?

2. Waxes, I have some poorboys stuff, but was looking in to buying the ***** complete kits does anyone have any ideas

3. Where would be the best place to buy a bulk buy on Micro Fibre cloths and what applicators do people use.

4. What would be the best mops for the makita rotary polisher, heard good stuff on the mergiuars gear, feedback could be good.

I have a budget of about £1400.00, I have already spent £1300.00 out.

Thanks for the help and if anyone would be good to offer whats good and whats not i would be greatful.


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## Select Detailing (Feb 19, 2009)

This is what I have brought so far


AG Paint renavator 325ml 4
AG EGP 325ml 5
AG EGP 500ml 3
AG Metal polish 325ml 2
AG Quick clear screen wash - 4
AG Bumper care 325ml 4
AG Vinal and rubber care 500ml 1
AG Leather cleaner 500ml 2
AG Auto fresh 500ml 2
AG Intersive tar remover 325ml 3
AG Body work shampoo conditioner 500ml 4
AG Care glass polish 325ml 2
AG Ultra deep shine 500ml 3
AG Interior shampoo 500ml 2
AG Fast glass 500ml 1
AG Odour eliminator 500ml 3
AG Clean wheels 500ml 2
AG Custom whell cleaner 500ml 1
AG Instant tyre dressing 500ml 4
AG Super resin polish 325ml 5
AG Super resin polish 500ml 4
AG Super resin polish 1ltr 7
AG Perfect polishing cloth (contains 8) - 2
AG Aqua dry - 2
MEG Quick detailer 473ml 1
MEG Plastx 296ml 2
MEG Scratchx 207ml 1
MEG Gold class liquid wax 473ml 1
MEG Cleaner wax 473ml 5
MEG Step 1 paint cleaner 473ml 4
MEG Step 2 polish 473ml 2
MEG Step 3 wax 473ml 2
MEG Quik wax 473ml 4
MEG Gold class bag and tar remover 473ml 3
MEG Quik interior cleaner detailer 473ml 2
MEG Gold class trim detailer 473ml 8
MEG Nxt all metal polish 142g 4
MEG Nxt tec wax 532ml with applicator 2
MEG Nxt tec wax spray 710ml 2
MEG Nxt tec protect interior protectent 710ml 4
MEG Body duster - 3
MEG Wash and wax care kit - 3
SW Smart clay - 1
SW Blue be gone metal shine 120ml 2
SW Smart sealant 473ml 3
SW Smart gel 473ml 2
SW Smart car wash 473ml 3
SW Smart glaze 473ml 3
SW Smart wax 473ml 2
SW Smart polish 473ml 3
PB Nattys paste wax blue - 5
PB nattys paste wax white - 2
PB Wheel sealant - 5
PB SSR1 473ml 2
PB SSR2.5 473ml 2
PB SSR3 473ml 2
PB Black hole 473ml 4
PB White diamond 473ml 3
PB EX-P 473ml 6
PB Proffessional polish 473ml 3
PB Bug Squash 473ml 2
PB Bold N Bright 473ml 3
PB Natural look 473ml 4
PB Polish with sarnuba 473ml 3
PB Spray and wipe 473ml 3
PB Spray and Gloss 473ml 4
PB Spray and rinse wheel cleaner big 3
PB Bio- degradable all purpose white wall cleaner and degreaser big 3
PB Super slick and suds big 5
- Wonder snow foam 5ltr 4 
Autoglym 
Autoglym - A UK based Manufacturer of car care products. 



EGP 
Autoglym Extra Gloss Protection 


I also brought direct from autoglym the following.

1. Window Clean
2. Wheel Cleaner
3. Tar Glue Remover
4. Super Sheen
5. Radiant Wax
6. Rubber Plus Cleaner
7. Glass Cleaner
8. Bodywork Shampoo
9. Autogloss Rinse Aid
10. Super Interior Cleaner
11. Finishing Cloth
12. Multiwash TFR

The bulk buy was for normal daily use, I would be greatfull if anyone could give me a shopping list of other stuff i may need, as not to sure.

Thanks Again 

Gareth


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## PETER @ ECLIPSE (Apr 19, 2006)

pads megs , wont go far wrong with them , the rest of the stuff is pretty much an individual thing , try not to get bogged down with to many products that youll end up not using see the for sale section with the pros getting rid of surplus gear lol .
make a start with what you have and develop from there otherwise youll end up spending a fortune on stuff that wont get used


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## Select Detailing (Feb 19, 2009)

Thanks,

i still dont have a good selection of waxes for different car, I.E Darks, Reds, Whites and so on.

There seems to be so much choice I'm like a little boy in a sweet shop.


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## The Detail Doctor (Feb 22, 2008)

So far as waxes go there is too much empasis placed on colour charged waxes, the color charging actually does little or nothing IMHO.

Just get a decent cheap(ish) wax r.g. Collinite, a decent mid range wax e.g. one of the Dodo products & some decent sealant e.g Zaino Z2

IMO you already have far too much stuff to choose from in your list.


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## Phil H (May 14, 2006)

Sounds like you already have a lot of stuff you may not use at all. As Peter said above really. 

I am in the process of getting rid of items i just don't use any more and would rather stick to makes and products (expensive and in-expensive) i am happy with which get the job done. 

I find myself only using 2 or 3 makes of polish when correcting and thats it. 

I know i have not been going as long as some of the Pro's on here but I have used and tried lots of different products, and gained experience with what works and whats just over priced. It is down to what works for you and what you and your clients are happy with. You will probably find after 12 months or so that you will end up selling a lot of stock you dont need.

Pads i recommend:
Sonus 
3M
Meg

I dont mean to be rude though, but some of the questions are pretty basic stuff if your going full time detailing as you mentioned you've limited experience. I fully understand we all have to start somewhere but i'm just trying to get an understanding of what you have worked with so we can give better advice?


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## hotwaxxx (Jul 12, 2007)

Bloomin hell mate - calm down.

You have a hell of a lot of stuff already brought and it seems you have brought a few of each item on your list as well. You only need to buy one of each item as you may not get on with it - and then you simply have surplus stock which you may sell (at a loss).

Like it has been already said, get a few decent waxes; Collinite (durability), Victoria Concours (all-rounder) and perhaps a Zymbol/Swissvax (highender).

I can understand needing loads of foam applicators/microfibres as these will can be used everyday and all the time. But I don't see why you are buying so much and in bulk - simply buy more when you run out.

Personally, if you wanted to buy in bulk, then you should buy stuff from the following page as these products can be used daily and will last a fair while. Plus it works out cheaper than buying 5 small bottles of everything:

http://www.cleanyourcar.co.uk/valeting-and-bulk/cat_58.html


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## Finerdetails (Apr 30, 2006)

as already said, lots of stuff, and lots of over laps too. I doubt you will use over half of it and prob end up selling an aweful lot.


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## Select Detailing (Feb 19, 2009)

Many Thanks for the advice, it does seem that i have gone a little overboard on the buying, dam, 

Some of the stock i have brought is for resale to customers and for when I attend the car shows.

Once again many thanks


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## Auto Finesse (Jan 10, 2007)

You have loads of stuff that are the same as another you already have and to be fair you have a good few [email protected] ones too, 

What are you actually trying to do? detail cars or sales ??? 

For compounds i would go for the 3M range, green yellow and blue top, and then the 4 menz polishes 3.02, 85RD 203s and the new finishing one (forgot the code for it) 

Pads Megs all the way IMO there is not alot of need for any others as they are the best (and iv tried alot) then some sounus 4" ones and jobs a goodun.

Wax, well if you are going to buy all the Zym0l range then your crazy, to be fair all you need is concourse and (if you can afford it) vintage, you dont need a wax for a light car dark car red car, (despite dodo sell on it, its aimed at the enthusiasts not pros) what you want is a base wax (30-40 quid) a mid range (100-200) then super high end (1K+) then your clients have 2 up grade options you dont want to swamp them with choice, as the gain between each one will be so little they wont see a reason to pay the hop up (in my experiance) personaly i use Dodo SN as my base wax and Black fire sealant as my base options, if a clients wants a SV or Z wax used i have BOS or Conc then if they want best of the best then Vintage or the CL coating
Hope that helps,

James B


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## Select Detailing (Feb 19, 2009)

Hi James,

Thanks for the advice and to the others.

I am not interested in selling cars, although some of my detailing work is local garages that sell hi end vehicles.

I am due to undertake my first major detail on a stretch Hummer that is owned ny a limo company and is black. 
The paintwork is shocking and will need a good degree off correction.

As im so new, I will be taking a detailed pic of this and will post, It will be good to have some feedback.


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## Phil H (May 14, 2006)

Bloody ell lol! quite a first detail! hope all goes well. Look forward to the write up.

Oh invest in a paint guage!

Cheers


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## Jakedoodles (Jan 16, 2006)

Gareth, imo, you've totally wasted a shed load of cash. I would get the bulk of the AG stuff sold. A lot of that is consumer grade product, and loads of it is not cost effective at all. A small bottle of AG tar remover will last you no time at all, whereas you could have had 5L of Tardis which will last you a year or more. 

What you have effectively bought is stock for a shop, not stock for a detailer. I would honestly sell all of that and start again, buying bulk products, as otherwise you'll be drastically reducing your profits. Apart from the Wonder Snow Foam of course - 'cos that's really good! lol. Although, truth be told, that was re-branded for me, and is exactly the same as Clean Your Car, Ultimate Detailing, etc etc. 

Have you got a full time job at the mo? To be totally honest chap, this is something most of us repeat to people in the main forum over and over again. You can't just buy a load of kit and become a detailer. A valeter, yes, inasmuch as, doing basic washes etc, but to be a detailer, in my personal opinion, means you offer something above and beyond the local hand wash, and the bulk of that is knowledge of what will make your customers car look the best, and how best to go about it. Nearly all of us have come from a basic background, as this game is not something you can just get in to. I spent 2 years + messing about with friends, families cars etc, going through hundreds of products and techniques before I felt I had got it right enough to start up a business, and even now I am still learning. 

James has made some valuable comments, which I agree with 100%. I would look at Vics Concours as your basic wax (which is very very good.) Bare in mind, you cannot buy Zymool waxes as a professional unless you are signed up to their scheme. Even mentioning their product on your website will get it taken down and a solicitors letter sent to you. You can, if you're clever, buy it as an individual though (as I have done) with my pot of concours and vintage.


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## Auto Finesse (Jan 10, 2007)

Dont know why i bothered even helping this muppet, for him to get his back up and send me a narky PM, newbies can go F**k them selfs from now on as far as im concerned, i offered good solid advise to you.

Good luck gareth, hope your better at detailing than you are at dealing with people who tried to help you.

PS i was on about selling products not cars.


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## dw0510 (Oct 22, 2006)

Farking hell you bought 2 or 3 or more of everything?! AG isnt that good either imo!


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## Gleammachine (Sep 8, 2007)

Wonderdetail said:


> Bare in mind, you cannot buy Zymool waxes as a professional unless you are signed up to their scheme. You can, if you're clever, buy it as an individual though (as I have done) with my pot of concours and vintage.


Paul are you sure? might have miss-understood, but I'm sure if I rang Eammon and asked him to sell me a pot of Concours/Destiny or other he wouldn't have a problem.
Can understand limitations for a pro with the likes of Vintage/Royalle where there are refills.


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## The Detail Doctor (Feb 22, 2008)

james b said:


> Dont know why i bothered even helping this muppet, for him to get his back up and send me a narky PM, newbies can go F**k them selfs from now on as far as im concerned, i offered good solid advise to you.


Well I appreciate the advise both you & others offered me in the very early days:thumb:


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## Jakedoodles (Jan 16, 2006)

Gleammachine said:


> Paul are you sure? might have miss-understood, but I'm sure if I rang Eammon and asked him to sell me a pot of Concours/Destiny or other he wouldn't have a problem.
> Can understand limitations for a pro with the likes of Vintage/Royalle where there are refills.


Must have been me that misunderstood. I was talking to a local supplier (North East Detailing) and he said he would be unable to supply me with ***** as I am a pro and would be using it in that capacity, which is against Z regs. I just assumed he was telling the truth. Mind, he'd have reason to make it up, as I'm competition for him!


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## Frothey (Apr 30, 2007)

The Detail Doctor said:


> Well I appreciate the advise both you & others offered me in the very early days:thumb:


Too right..... James and the others have been there, seen it and done and - and are still doing it!

Retailing stuff that you can pick up (possibly cheaper) in Halfords/any car place is a bit of a waste - better off with "proper" detailing brands that they can't easily pick up unless they go on the web, if you want to go down that route. Too many money tied up in stuff that's going to sit around gathering dust.

After all, a lot of our work comes along because people can't be arsed to do it themselves.....


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## Brazo (Oct 27, 2005)

A great man once said, 'Find something you like and use it often'

A mars duo to the first who can tell me who that was 

I have massivly slimmed down my stock to what I use, rather than have 4 different cutting polishes, I now just have 4 bottles of the same cutting polish! 

As for waxes, everyone seems to be jumping on the wax bandwagon as wax does sell, I can't help but think if as much 'time' was invested into devising an all singing all dancing polish, people would be much better off


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## drive 'n' shine (Apr 22, 2006)

Brazo said:


> A great man once said, 'Find something you like and use it often'
> 
> A mars duo to the first who can tell me who that was
> 
> ...


Mike Phillips


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## Frothey (Apr 30, 2007)

jack anderson...... mike quoted him iirc


or was it jaqueline gold


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## Frothey (Apr 30, 2007)

Brazo said:


> I have massivly slimmed down my stock to what I use, rather than have 4 different cutting polishes, I now just have 4 bottles of the same cutting polish!


I've got about a quarter of the products I had when I first started, but 3 times as many polishes and pads (though i still tend to use the same 2 or 3!)


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## drive 'n' shine (Apr 22, 2006)

In The Detail said:


> or was it jaqueline gold


:lol: batteries included!


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## The Detail Doctor (Feb 22, 2008)

In The Detail said:


> Retailing stuff that you can pick up (possibly cheaper) in Halfords/any car place is a bit of a waste - better off with "proper" detailing brands that they can't easily pick up unless they go on the web, if you want to go down that route.


That's very true.

When I'm buying supplies I always buy one or two spares of products such as Z-8 as invariably customers ask "where can I get some of that"? So I just sell them one of mine at RRP, saves them the postage, keeps them happy.:thumb:


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## RedCloudMC (Jul 19, 2008)

The Detail Doctor said:


> That's very true.
> 
> When I'm buying supplies I always buy one or two spares of products such as Z-8 as invariably customers ask "where can I get some of that"? So I just sell them one of mine at RRP, saves them the postage, keeps them happy.:thumb:


Ditto here - I tend to carry a spare pot or two of the most likely products the customer will be interested in...just in case.

Obviously I don't know the content of the PM between Select and Auto Finesse and don't want to but it is bang out of order to throw a wobbly over advice you may not like in my opinion. One of the values of a forum like this is to get advice and learn all aspects of the business and the job we all do. Often, as in all walks of life, you may not like this advice but it's given for a reason...not to be awkward...but to try and help and ensure as a start up you have a fighting chance of surviving and making fewer mistakes. You may be the best business mind in Britain and the most amazing detailer to boot, but you don't have the experience of some of these guys and as such should respect that. They're/we're here to help - not to score points or make you feel unlwelcome.

Anyway, dad lecture over...good luck and I hope all goes well for you.

Let us know how that Hummer goes...would be keen to see.

Cheers :thumb:


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## hotwaxxx (Jul 12, 2007)

Yes - good luck with the stretched Hummer. Cannot wait to see the outcome as that will be a mightly tough job as your first detail.

Just make sure you set out a few days for the job as, when I did a limo, you don't appreciate how big these things are until you see them in the flesh so to speak.:thumb:


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## Brazo (Oct 27, 2005)

drive 'n' shine said:


> Mike Phillips


Liking your style there Bry 

I'll knock the price of a mars duo of next years supporters fees:thumb:


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## Frothey (Apr 30, 2007)

mike said he got the quote from jack though.....

bloody favouritism

stick yer bloody mars bloody duo, see if i care.


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## Brazo (Oct 27, 2005)

In The Detail said:


> mike said he got the quote from jack though.....
> 
> bloody favouritism
> 
> stick yer bloody mars bloody duo, see if i care.


Oh God you can bloody have one too then 

Anyone else for a slightly melted soft brown bar?


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## Frothey (Apr 30, 2007)

don't want it now if I'm second best.....


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## drive 'n' shine (Apr 22, 2006)

Brazo said:


> Liking your style there Bry
> 
> I'll knock the price of a mars duo of next years supporters fees:thumb:


Result! with the recent price rises due to the weak pound Mars duos are now £150


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## Frothey (Apr 30, 2007)

drive 'n' shine said:


> Result! with the recent price rises due to the weak pound Mars duos are now £150


yeah, i'll reluctantly have one too :lol:


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## Select Detailing (Feb 19, 2009)

Hi Guys,

Many many thanks for the advice and help on this. 

It is very very easy to be bogged down by the endless kit that is on the market and be a boy in a sweet shop.(Lol)

What is needed is to possibly try a few different products and see what works best for me.

James relation to the comments about me being a muppet and newbie can go f**k themselfs. 
The ability of you as a detailer is second to none, and while I am new to the detailing scene. Remember you were in my shoes once and after hard work your like many others are at the top of the game and i look up to you guys and aspire to get to this stage.

For me, I sent you a private mail, as from my previous posting you seem some what negative towards certain posts. 
If this is me getting it wrong I will say sorry, but please dont call me a muppet and disrespect me in the room for others to see. I showed you the respect by doing it in private.

For a new guy coming in on the detailing scene, its scarry as i dont want to seem that im just another guy jumping on the band waggon and calling myself a detailer.
I have a great deal to learn, and seeing as i have spent the last 15 years in the building game, I know nothing. Hence why i post on here to learn and enjoy.

If you cant be polite then dont bother reading my posts.




Once again sorry to go on, but to those that have helped me, Thank You


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## Auto Finesse (Jan 10, 2007)

Every time iv posted on a thread of yours i have helped by answering your questions, Where in my post on this thread (before you PMed me with the hump) was i being out of order to you? to be fair you dont deserve my politness after PMing me with the hump when all i did was give you sound advise, you dont deserve any respect from me now so you wont get any.

So now i shal tell you exactly as i see it:

You are another guy jumping on the bandwaggon, you have no experience in this industry at any professional level and think you can jump on at the top LOL, all the top guys on here started out as humble valeters and progressed to detailing, i was never in your shoes i worked my way up from the bottom for the record, so dont make out me and you have any thing in common.

Just to show this was not me being a [email protected] to start with look at your posts i have replied on, every one of them i gave you help including this one:

This thread :

http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=105813

I gave you more FREE advise

or this one ?

http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=106576&page=2

again gave you help.

And this very thread i gave you what is IMO very good advise (please guys tell me if im out of line in any of those posts) Dont PM me with the a$$ then try to play it down in the main forum, im not shy of saying what i think right here 

If this is what the pro section has come to id rather not be here.


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## Select Detailing (Feb 19, 2009)

James,

Please dont make me laugh, i am not going to drag this on and allow it to become a slanging match. Other detailers dont need to see this or be troubled by it.

It seems that your acting a drama queen and like to be the centre off attn and well control the forum. 
You have made it plain what you think, and that i have no experience in this area.

For the record. I started working as a valater at the age of 16 while doing a-levels, I was showing my dads cossie in working class concourse from the age of 15 and one numerous concourse competitions at different levels. I have maintained people hi end cars over the years, but for me, the money was not up to scratch, so i went in to the building game, where i have worked running a property maintance business.

I have always kept my hand in by detailing my own cars, and posted a few of my cars, over the years i have done jobs on others, inc machine polishing and correcting paint problems with good results.

So please dont make me laugh by saying i know jack all, it may not be to the standard of yourself and others but i can hold my own and wont allow people like you to belittle me or attack me. 

James grow up, this industry is plenty big enough for new people to join and make a go of it, and with the drive and flair i have and most off all enjoyment i get from this My business will work. 
But again its all down to hard work, time and the ability to learn.

This matter is closed James, so all the best


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## Auto Finesse (Jan 10, 2007)

See you really do think i started this with you, your that blind that you dont see to start with i thought you was alright and gave you my veiw on it, now you got the hump cos a few people including me told you you waisted your doe on some bits that are not up to much, if you read past that i gave you very good business advise. if this is how you act its no wonder you have moved from the building trade to some thing else, every thought it might not be what your doing but how your going about it ?

Trust me i dont see you as a threat business wise, you carry on as you are, talk is cheap and i dont see much more than a few finished snaps from you so far. i can detail carts already and get a healthy turn over off it already.

You can get the message off my PM i dont wish to help you any more so as you are.


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## PETER @ ECLIPSE (Apr 19, 2006)

just an observation , as i did post up early on in the thread , but from what youve now just said seems a bit odd , if youve been valeting for X amount of years and prepping cars to concourse standard surely you should know whats what and that most of your list is just a waste of money which could of been used to far greater measures in getting ready to start up .
just seems a bit of a contradiction


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## hotwaxxx (Jul 12, 2007)

Calm down fellas - its only a commercial.

I can see where James B is coming from to be honest. There have been a mass of people who have appeared on DW and within months of their first thread they have become a "pro-detailer" even though they are still asking very basic questions about machining, products, procedures etc etc. And that my friend, is definitely jumping on the bandwagon.

I too am most annoyed when we have a new DW Supporter and then after a little searching of threads notice that they have only been posting threads weeks back asking for very basic tips such as how to machine a car, what is clay etc etc. I never started as a valeter (as most have here) - I jumped on the bandwagon in 2005 and worked extensively on friends/family cars and scrap pieces of metal and plastic perfecting the skills of machine polishing and then I began advertising my services professionally around 18 months later. 

And so from that you can see James B's annoyance. He, like many other detailers, has started from the very bottom and has worked his way up and has achieved a reputation through sheer hard work which is tough going. Starting a business isn't the easiest thing in the world and especially in a specialist field such as detailing. Therefore, you can see why he is annoyed when new 'detailers' appear overnight after no experience or expertise in the field other than washing a few cars and having a shedload of products in the garage.

Now James B is a bit of a 'twonk' (is that a word?) most of the times who always speaks his mind (he has a venomous tongue at times and doesn't care if he offends) - but he is always happy to help although this sometimes comes across as offensive and unruly most of the time.

Now on your side of the fence. Yes, everyone has to begin somewhere and DW is certainly the best place to learn if you plan to become a valeter/detailer. What I do not agree with though is becoming a DW Supporter with limited knowledge of the game. DW viewers will have the opportunity to approach you for work thinking full well that you are experienced in the field of detailing and expecting a top notch service. However, if you are new in the game with limited experience of 'detailing' (not valeting) - you can be caught out and then that leaves a sour taste in the mouth of prodetailers who are tarnished with the same brush.

I am not saying you cannot become a DW Supporter as you paid your money to get yourself into the asylum (I just feel the DW staff should somehow only give access to this section to 'pro-detailers' and not wannabes or unexperienced bod who are learning the trade).

I hope that helps and I'll shut the hell up now (although I am expecting James B to reply to say he isn't a 'twonk').:lol:


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## PETER @ ECLIPSE (Apr 19, 2006)

some good point there mate , i think there should be some sort of time / experience to someone wanting to join lets say 3 years doing this full time , as once like you say a person becomes a member within a month or so gives the impression of a pro service , i know this is a tough one and there are quite a few detailers with full time jobs , but saying that they arnt in here , so maybe something for the admin to consider .
as with the currant climate there will be more in here than out on the forum , as most think this game is a doddle ,


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## hotwaxxx (Jul 12, 2007)

ECLIPSE AUTO VALET said:


> ...as with the currant climate there will be more in here than out on the forum , as most think this game is a doddle ,


Which it certainly isn't - just had a BMW 730d over the weekend and must have spent 16 hours machining some god awful paint (no photos on this one as I was honestly sick of the car to be honest). The owner was delighted but I just wish some paints came with health warnings.

I think potential prodetailers should be made to do one of these over a weekend and then if they still like the job - can become a pro-detailer.


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## Select Detailing (Feb 19, 2009)

I can see the points that yes people do come in and call them self detailers, me inc.

I accept that to be classed a detailer you need to of served your time like any trade. I consider what i do detailing, as i just dont polish a car and mask it with products that give a shine for a few weeks and then need to be reapplied, I prefer to do the job correctly and make sure that Im happy.

Guess for any guy claiming to be a detailer, its down to them to show to others that they can do the job in question, and when they hit a problem, from my experience is to ask for advice rather than to fob the customer off.

Im not knocking James, and accept that at least he has the balls to say it how he feels, and no doubt you know where you stand with him. Bit like me as i say it how it is.

Guys the last thing i want to do is rub people up and to be outcasted, yes this is what i plan to do, but i do really enjoy this, and as i have a young family, i have really thought long and hard about entering in to it, and know that i will have to earn my wings and gain experience, but the only way to do this is by giving it my best shot.


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## drive 'n' shine (Apr 22, 2006)

hotwaxxx said:


> Which it certainly isn't - just had a BMW 730d over the weekend and must have spent 16 hours machining some god awful paint (no photos on this one as I was honestly sick of the car to be honest). The owner was delighted but I just wish some paints came with health warnings.
> 
> I think potential prodetailers should be made to do one of these over a weekend and then if they still like the job - can become a pro-detailer.


Try doing them every day rather than the odd weekend


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## Frothey (Apr 30, 2007)

ECLIPSE AUTO VALET said:


> i know this is a tough one and there are quite a few detailers with full time jobs , but saying that they arnt in here , so maybe something for the admin to consider .
> as with the currant climate there will be more in here than out on the forum , as most think this game is a doddle ,


where does that leave me? i detail for "fun", but think it takes the **** to post stuff on the site that people may or may not have paid for, and not contribute to it.

As the admin points out, nowhere does it say "professional" on our profiles unless we put it on there, we are supporters not professionals in DW's eyes....


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## hotwaxxx (Jul 12, 2007)

drive 'n' shine said:


> Try doing them every day rather than the odd weekend


I'd rather not - you full-timers are absolute Gods (or nuts) to do this kind of work day in day out.

I'm normally shot by the end of a Sunday and then promise myself no more detailing. Until I get another car the following weekend and it all begins again. But then there are days when you get a car that is easy as pie to correct and no trouble at all and the world is a lovely place etc etc.


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## hotwaxxx (Jul 12, 2007)

In The Detail said:


> where does that leave me? i detail for "fun", but think it takes the **** to post stuff on the site that people may or may not have paid for, and not contribute to it.
> 
> As the admin points out, nowhere does it say "professional" on our profiles unless we put it on there, we are supporters not professionals in DW's eyes....


Very good and fair point, mate. Maybe there should be two classes;

1. DW Supporters
2. DW Pro-Detailers

Just for the ease of forum members to know who to contact for the job in hand.

But then saying that, even though I only detail part-time (weekends), I would still like to be classed as a pro-detailer as I've been doing this for over 4 years now and don't want to be classed as a 'weekend warrior' (because that certainly does not do me any justification as I have more experience than people who simply do this as a weekend hobby and who get paid cash in hand). I actually pay tax and Hotwaxxx is a second profession according to Inland Revenue!


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## Frothey (Apr 30, 2007)

how do you define a pro-detailer though? and some people might not want to be known as a detailer. it's also a bit like DW giving their seal of approval to the detailer, and how do they "certify" that - and we've been there before on that issue!

the definition of a "professional" detailer is someone that does it for a living, so no matter how experienced someone is, if they haven't got another job then they are doing it for a living - it's their profession.

Out of interest, I've never understood what a "stitute" was....


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## PETER @ ECLIPSE (Apr 19, 2006)

easy , whether it be a valeter or detailer and is their only source of income .not someone with a nice 9-5 so only able to offer the service on the weekend


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## drive 'n' shine (Apr 22, 2006)

hotwaxxx said:


> I would still like to be classed as a pro-detailer as I've been doing this for over 4 years now and don't want to be classed as a 'weekend warrior' (because that certainly does not do me any justification as I have more experience than people who simply do this as a weekend hobby and who get paid cash in hand). I actually pay tax and Hotwaxxx is a second profession according to Inland Revenue!


But that probably only equals about 6 months for a full timer if that!


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## hotwaxxx (Jul 12, 2007)

drive 'n' shine said:


> But that probably only equals about 6 months for a full timer if that!


True - fair point.


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## PETER @ ECLIPSE (Apr 19, 2006)

youve always had the us and them scenario out on the forum and tbh its getting like that in here now


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## AndyC (Oct 25, 2005)

Professional (or full-time) = someone whose job pays their mortgage which means they do it as a full-time occupation, whether they're a detailer, bank manager, builer or footballer.

Part-time = someone who works less than a 5 day week (Monday - Friday) and less than an 8 hour working day

So a professional detailer is someone whose full-time occupation is cleaning cars, polishing cars, vacuuming cars, removing scratches on cars, waxing cars etc etc. A part-time detailer is one who has a full-time job outside of the detailing industry and details as a side line.

Is a pro better? Not even going there although I will say that I am a reasonably proficient enthusiast but I couldn't hold a candle to most of the chaps here - they're simply more experienced and knowledgeable and do it more often than me.

The ONLY exception to that statement is that I've spent countless hours on one of my cars and I would challenge anyone, pro or not, to make it look any "better" - arrogant? maybe but that's how I see it.

As for bandwagons, I can see where James is coming from and I'd agree that perhaps it would be a good idea for it to be clear that some supporters are full-time professionals and others aren't - although surely that would generate a clear them & us in here?

Bear in mind that many (self included) will realise that there's a sh1tload more to "being a detailer" than buying a buffer and some products - this will mean that the good ones will survive and those who can't cut it won't - simple really.

From my own perspective, I'm now concentrating on teaching and I usually refer any detailing enquiries out to local pros. I am making an exception this weekend as I have a rather special 205 to do and again in a few weeks when I have a race car to do for a friend in exchange for some new shocks and exhaust on my own 205 - otherwise one teaching session a month with the odd 1 to 1 is plenty :thumb:


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## hotwaxxx (Jul 12, 2007)

AndyC said:


> Professional (or full-time) = someone whose job pays their mortgage which means they do it as a full-time occupation, whether they're a detailer, bank manager, builer or footballer.
> 
> Part-time = someone who works less than a 5 day week (Monday - Friday) and less than an 8 hour working day
> 
> ...


Can I not be classed a 'professional part-time detailer'.


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## Frothey (Apr 30, 2007)

i tend to pass stuff on now unless it's interesting or I know they aren't ever going to pay "proper" money. even then, I've got so many proviso's to doing it in terms of quality of finish, like the 5 series I did. as far as a "pro" detail it still left "loads" of swirls/RDS's by our standards, but i know it was vastly better than he would've got from a quick "mop" with G3. he was overjoyed with it and has been recommending me to others - that's all that matters to me - the "client" is happy.

but then I don't really step on anyone's toe's where I am.

anyway, if we are going on about different titles can I have "I make cars more shiny"


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## hotwaxxx (Jul 12, 2007)

In The Detail said:


> anyway, if we are going on about different titles can I have "I make cars more shiny"


:lol:


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## AndyC (Oct 25, 2005)

hotwaxxx said:


> Can I not be classed a 'professional part-time detailer'.


There's always one 

Seriously, I guess there is a middle ground for people who are experienced but not full-time. I suppose you could add that such people should have a registered company name and pay tax, have insurance and so on so it shows that they're serious and not just looking to make a fast buck.

TBH I reckon most who either join DW to find a detailer or look elswehere on the interweb or use recommendaton will make their own choice based on quality of work etc.

Problem is for those who will book a detail on price alone, they may end up with a weekender who doesn't have the above in place and might do a runner it it went **** up?


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## WHIZZER (Oct 25, 2005)

hotwaxxx said:


> Calm down fellas - its only a commercial.
> 
> . What I do not agree with though is becoming a DW Supporter with limited knowledge of the game.
> 
> ...


Good bit of advice there chaps - Calm Down

DW supporters is for anybody that would like to help support the forum - not just for Pro's hence the title DW supporter rather than DW Pro

It is designed to give those that wish to have a signature for their business and more pms etc etc ... It could be for any business except a comercial style shop that would step on our traders toes

So In Essence somebody who wishes to design webs could in theory become a DW supporter

We even have supporters that are just that Supporters - no business with detailing etc



hotwaxxx said:


> Very good and fair point, mate. Maybe there should be two classes;
> 
> 1. DW Supporters
> 2. DW Pro-Detailers
> ...


Trying to have to different subscriptions does not work for DW - And while we are at it we have to protect the forum, members etc hence we dont call them DW pros as it would look as if we have endorsed them and we cant vouch for their own work , insurance etc as we are not a govering body and at this present time dont wish to be



In The Detail said:


> how do you define a pro-detailer though? and some people might not want to be known as a detailer. it's also a bit like DW giving their seal of approval to the detailer, and how do they "certify" that - and we've been there before on that issue!
> 
> the definition of a "professional" detailer is someone that does it for a living, so no matter how experienced someone is, if they haven't got another job then they are doing it for a living - it's their profession.
> 
> Out of interest, I've never understood what a "stitute" was....


Exactly how would DW define a Pro - Would it be one that has worked so many hrs ? Only does this as his main job ? Do you have the revelant insurances etc ?

The Supporters section - albeit nearly all of you are in Detailing / valeting related jobs is for an advertising opportunity with DW , its members and related website and publications

Chaps Let please try and keep it friendly

Thanks

Bill :thumb:


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## Jakedoodles (Jan 16, 2006)

But really.... does it matter? I couldn't care less if there are weekend warriors. In fact, I borrowed a G220 off one for a TVR I did last week! Ultimately, he charges what he does for the kind of job he offers, I charge what I do for the kind of job I offer. There's a clear difference, and any potential customer with a brain sees that. And if they don't, then I don't want then as customers anyway. 

But... on the flip side of the coin.. Mr Select, you don't have sufficient experience to call yourself a detailer, in my humble opinion, and it's this notion that is damaging our industry. If I was a customer, and I rang you up asking about products, and you didn't know the answer, as you seemingly don't, I would not consider you as a professional in your industry, just the same as if I rang up a builder and he did not know what kind of guttering, bricks, foundations etc are suitable for the house I wanted working on. It hardly inspires confidence. 

I can even give you a real life example of this. I did a Porsche yesterday and the guy had previously had a lad come out and give him a quote. Now, this lad was up until recently known as a valeter. However, he's recently changed his website to say he's a detailer. He came out, looked at the Porsche and gave the guy a load of duff info about what needed doing. He said that he worked on fezza's and lambo's every day. Now, this customer then had a bad imagine of detailers, but thankfully, heard about me from other Porsche owners, and took the time to contact me. I did the job, and this was the testimonial:

Just would like to let people know I had Paul Reed of Wonderdetail, Northumberland, (I live near Durham) around yesterday to correct my 05 Boxster. From the first contact with him on the initial telephone enquiry I found him to be extremely polite knowledgeable and helpful. He agrees a date, e-mails you a booking confirmation and you pay a deposit, painless simple and everyone knows where they stand, his is fully insured which is worth considering. He turned up on time, as agreed at 08.30hrs and worked without a break until 18.00hrs. He was extremely helpful and explained all processes fully and gave advice on paint maintenance. The car was full of light swirls and scratches and when he finished it looked immaculate, I cannot praise him enough. I must admit I was sceptical of these services before but I can honestly say it is money well spent, the car now looks amazing. 
I had never met Paul before, I had and have no connection to him and no reason to write this other than genuine praise for a job extremely well done, as he said he would, when he said he would, that is very rare these days I am afraid, I would recommend him to anyone.

That was posted on a forum he frequents. Read between the lines of that testimonial and you'll see that me knowing my stuff was very important to him, and he was more than happy to pay the price for this. The more and more people that don't have this experience or knowledge, the less people will have this confidence in detailing. 

Just my humble opinion, of course.


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## Frothey (Apr 30, 2007)

WHIZZER said:


> Exactly how would DW define a Pro - Would it be one that has worked so many hrs ? Only does this as his main job ? Do you have the revelant insurances etc ?


Absolutely Bill, that's the point I was trying to make. Until there is a national recognised body, there's no "specification" for a pro. And lets face it, there's never going to be a national recognised body!


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## hotwaxxx (Jul 12, 2007)

Well said, Paul (WD) - and totally agree with all that.

You speak a lot of sense without belittling or appearing big-headed.:thumb:


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## Brazo (Oct 27, 2005)

Guys I think we should calm down a tad, I did advise Gareth from Select detailing to ask any questions in this forum, rather than the open forum which I am sure we would all prefer, so maybe a tad unfair to bite head off so soon!

Blame it on me!


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## hotwaxxx (Jul 12, 2007)

Brazo said:


> Blame it on me!


We always do.:lol:


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## Auto Finesse (Jan 10, 2007)

Its a tough one what qualifies you as a pro, i have worked 14 hour days straight for 3 weeks before, now i dont get as much time to personaly (as i have another business and time comited to some thing else as well) detail cars however my business is still a 9-5 5 days but im only doing 3 10 hour days a week and the odd weekend doing the correction etc details whilst mike dose the top up and maintainance stuff on his own on the other days so where dose that leave me ? 

its a fine line that will move around,


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## Clark @ PB (Mar 1, 2006)

The way I see it is this:

Yes you will get ALOT of people jumping on the badwagon, especially as alot seem to see some of us charging £1k + for details and assume it's all profit. We've even had 2 customers in the last month or so e-mail us for business advice as they're starting up their own businesses (cheek!).

The thing is, there isnt much you can do about it so there's not much point in getting your knickers in a twist over it, all you can really do is keep focused on your own thing and as long as you do that then the so called "experts" who have been doing it for 2 minutes and blag their way through will eventually fall flat on their face. Either that or your own work will prove to be better than theirs and people will eventually realise this if they havent already done so.

If things on DW pi$$ me off I generally click on that little red cross in the top right of my screen


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## Auto Finesse (Jan 10, 2007)

I was not getting the hump with it to start with Clark, i was purely giving the guy some advise and (as he asked for) an opinion on what he had brought, then he got the hump cos i told him a few of the bits where pony.

I dont really care who tops up around me (i have a new guy from this forum on my door step pretty much) but it dont bother me as i know full well every car i turn out is to a higher level than any one else near enough to matter, what gets my back up is people asking for help and then kicking there toys out the pram cos they dont like the facts.

I have talked with Select detaing (forgot his name) and wer cool, i think what happened in the first place was text lacks some thing that words have (ie it was taken the wrong way) but i stand my what i said, i think you need to work your way up not try and hop to the top, like a house it needs foundations, it might be sh!tty dirty work but it has its purpose.


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## Clark @ PB (Mar 1, 2006)

I know what you mean about sometimes not getting your point accross properly in txt, I swear to god 99% of my fall outs with the girlfriend are over bloody txt messages! :lol:


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## Frothey (Apr 30, 2007)

^^ too true. i fell out with my girlfriend when the wife read the texts


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## Clark @ PB (Mar 1, 2006)

Lol!


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## Select Detailing (Feb 19, 2009)

Seems that people have mixed views on this, and the posts have made good advice and some taken on board.

I have spoken with James, and cleared the air, I respect James for saying it how it is and he knows, lol that if I dont like something ill say it how i see it. 

People's view on the detailing and the aspect who is a propper detailer is mixed. There is no pro detailer on the site and some seem unhappy that i can claim to be a detailer.

Well what about this for a idea, would be hard to start up, but why does one of the team from DW inspect a detailers work, and post up a section to make sure that they pass the required grade. You could have a cat section made up of the skills they offer in detailing and the detailer could be rated on a scale 1-10 1 being poor 10 being excellent.

I dont know as im only a newbie lol, but i do respect the views from others on here and will have to stick with the abuse lol.

Its all good and nice to see that people still care about the customer and the trade.

Thanks 

Gareth


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## Deano (Jul 7, 2006)

Select Detailing said:


> Seems that people have mixed views on this, and the posts have made good advice and some taken on board.
> 
> I have spoken with James, and cleared the air, I respect James for saying it how it is and he knows, lol that if I dont like something ill say it how i see it.
> 
> ...


the idea of a "governing body" has been discussed before. and as much as I love DW, I dont think its anyones place other than the customer, to grade my or any of the other detailers work. and if someones work was rated as "poor" or 1 out of 10 by DW, do you think they'd pay the subscription fee for another year?


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## Auto Finesse (Jan 10, 2007)

It wont work, there are loads of threads that go in to why.

There are pro detailers on this site, Clark, Bry, Paul (wd), Matt, Paul (SO), And many many others Including my self, i consider my self to be a pro, as the biggest % of my income comes from Auto Finesse, and im working around 40 (Charged Labor) hours a week there, not to mention all the other time spent doing other bits and bobs, i have worked for my self profesionally cleaning cars (i wont say valeting and i only considered my self a detailer for the last 3-4 years) since 1999, i just like to have a few things on the go to get doe  i dont work in a part time job or any thing. (i have only ever worked for some one else for 6 months of my whole life) detailing even when really established is not the steadiest trade to be in and winter you will see what i mean (valeting dont suffer as much but detailing is more a spring summer thing).

The best way to prove your self, is with a few good write ups, show us you can do what you say, with proper direct light before and afters etc, but to be fair product knowledge is what makes a good deatailer, you need to know what dose what and what will work in certain situations, from cleaners too compounds too LSP's. and you get get a bit of that from reading the forum but you need on the job experiance to really get it.


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## Jakedoodles (Jan 16, 2006)

The problem with a governing body is you can't really put a measure against our work. I mean, you can have a list of things that should be done, but you'd have to have knowledge of every single car on the market in order to score it properly. Let me give an example. TVR. Paint very very thin, and not a metal panel in sight. Now, if it was badly swirled, and if the paint reading was very low, then you'd be mad to go at it with FCP and a wool pad to correct because you risk doing serious damage. So, you do your best, and leave some stuff in. This is by far the best decision to make. But, if someone examined that, they could mark it down on the grounds of rids being left it. Then there's the arches. The paint peels off them terribly, so you can't do much with them. Again, could be marked down, but in reality, what you're doing it preserving the surface. Now if the person marking you didn't know the ins and outs of that model, then they would not consider what you did to be the right thing. 

Am I making sense? Rained off today. Too much time to ramble on!


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## Select Detailing (Feb 19, 2009)

Guess thats fair in the marking of things.


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## AndyC (Oct 25, 2005)

Here's a thought (playing devil's advocate).

I worked closely with a trade association some years back for the classic car restoration & race preparation industry and part of this process involved an annual check on them. This covered pretty much everything, from work processes to staffing to HSE issues. The assessors were mainly retired people from broadly similar industries and it worked to a point.

The businesses in the main were established with experienced staff and management - yes, some of them objected to someone assessing them but it wasn't a major issue. The impartiality of the assessor also worked in this respect - they were able to take an independent view of the business and report accordingly.

My job now includes surveying premises and occasionally having to discuss poor work practices with the owner of the business. This might include H&S, fire, security etc etc. I don't regard it as being an issue as it's an important part of my job.

The question is what would a trade association mean to / give to the detaling industry? Not much I suspect TBH - I'd be happy to be proved wrong though :thumb:


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## AndyC (Oct 25, 2005)

Wonderdetail said:


> The problem with a governing body is you can't really put a measure against our work. I mean, you can have a list of things that should be done, but you'd have to have knowledge of every single car on the market in order to score it properly. Let me give an example. TVR. Paint very very thin, and not a metal panel in sight. Now, if it was badly swirled, and if the paint reading was very low, then you'd be mad to go at it with FCP and a wool pad to correct because you risk doing serious damage. So, you do your best, and leave some stuff in. This is by far the best decision to make. But, if someone examined that, they could mark it down on the grounds of rids being left it. Then there's the arches. The paint peels off them terribly, so you can't do much with them. Again, could be marked down, but in reality, what you're doing it preserving the surface. Now if the person marking you didn't know the ins and outs of that model, then they would not consider what you did to be the right thing.
> 
> Am I making sense? Rained off today. Too much time to ramble on!


Simple answer to that one Paul is did you achieve what the customer required? If yes then I would regard that as being absolutely fine. If no then there's an issue.

Providing you explain to the customer what's achievable in advance and the level of work, correction or whatever is agreed on (which you will know as you'll know what can & can't be done) before you start the job then I wouldn't see a problem myself.


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## Frothey (Apr 30, 2007)

AndyC said:


> Simple answer to that one Paul is did you achieve what the customer required? If yes then I would regard that as being absolutely fine. If no then there's an issue.
> 
> Providing you explain to the customer what's achievable in advance and the level of work, correction or whatever is agreed on (which you will know as you'll know what can & can't be done) before you start the job then I wouldn't see a problem myself.


that's it in a nutshell - only we know what a customer asked for and what the end result really looked like without flattering camera angles. you can guarantee that if they weren't happy, by and large they would post something somewhere moaning about it.

the only persons opinion I care about (to a point) is the owners.....


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## Auto Finesse (Jan 10, 2007)

Wonderdetail said:


> The problem with a governing body is you can't really put a measure against our work. I mean, you can have a list of things that should be done, but you'd have to have knowledge of every single car on the market in order to score it properly. Let me give an example. TVR. Paint very very thin, and not a metal panel in sight. Now, if it was badly swirled, and if the paint reading was very low, then you'd be mad to go at it with FCP and a wool pad to correct because you risk doing serious damage. So, you do your best, and leave some stuff in. This is by far the best decision to make. But, if someone examined that, they could mark it down on the grounds of rids being left it. Then there's the arches. The paint peels off them terribly, so you can't do much with them. Again, could be marked down, but in reality, what you're doing it preserving the surface. Now if the person marking you didn't know the ins and outs of that model, then they would not consider what you did to be the right thing.
> 
> Am I making sense? Rained off today. Too much time to ramble on!


TVR paint is paint on gel coat and not that thin, the CC i find to be 20-44 M ok quite a gap but plenty to polish how ever 95% of the time there will be RDS in the gel coat from the factory prep before the paint being applied (the gel coat is "keyed up by hand") so you wont ever remove every thing  just a little tip for you, i do lots of TVRs and HATE THEM! also you will never get a proper reading even with as 200 or a 200A due to the make up of the panels.

So with that in mind i totally agree with what your saying Paul, you have to weigh up gain too risk or damage for that matter, and some times taking the sharp edge off a deeper scratch is a better option than going all out to get to the bottom of it and fully remove it.


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## hotwaxxx (Jul 12, 2007)

james b said:


> TVR paint is paint on gel coat and not that thin, the CC i find to be 20-44 M ok quite a gap but plenty to polish how ever 95% of the time there will be RDS in the gel coat from the factory prep before the paint being applied (the gel coat is "keyed up by hand") so you wont ever remove every thing  just a little tip for you, i do lots of TVRs and HATE THEM! also you will never get a proper reading even with as 200 or a 200A due to the make up of the panels.
> 
> So with that in mind i totally agree with what your saying Paul, you have to weigh up gain too risk or damage for that matter, and some times taking the sharp edge off a deeper scratch is a better option than going all out to get to the bottom of it and fully remove it.


I didn't know that - I was just of the opinion that the paint was ultra thin and the paint was applied to the composite panels as you would find on a Lotus Elise, Exige etc.

You learn something new everyday.:thumb:


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## Auto Finesse (Jan 10, 2007)

hotwaxxx said:


> I didn't know that - I was just of the opinion that the paint was ultra thin and the paint was applied to the composite panels as you would find on a Lotus Elise, Exige etc.
> 
> You learn something new everyday.:thumb:


How do you think you get a smooth side on Fiberglass then


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## Jakedoodles (Jan 16, 2006)

james b said:


> TVR paint is paint on gel coat and not that thin, the CC i find to be 20-44 M ok quite a gap but plenty to polish how ever 95% of the time there will be RDS in the gel coat from the factory prep before the paint being applied (the gel coat is "keyed up by hand") so you wont ever remove every thing  just a little tip for you, i do lots of TVRs and HATE THEM! also you will never get a proper reading even with as 200 or a 200A due to the make up of the panels.
> 
> So with that in mind i totally agree with what your saying Paul, you have to weigh up gain too risk or damage for that matter, and some times taking the sharp edge off a deeper scratch is a better option than going all out to get to the bottom of it and fully remove it.


James - I'll bow to your experience on that one. Every one I have done has come back with very very low CC readings, but I have only done a paucity in all honesty, so it could well have been isolated. I didn't know that about the readings either. I'll have to adopt a local valeters technique who viewed someone's car who is now a customer of mine of 'doing it by eye.' He must have ultrasonic eyes or something.


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## hotwaxxx (Jul 12, 2007)

james b said:


> How do you think you get a smooth side on Fiberglass then


Fair point - never thought of that. Doh.


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## Auto Finesse (Jan 10, 2007)

:lol::lol::lol:


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## Frothey (Apr 30, 2007)

Wonderdetail said:


> I'll have to adopt a local valeters technique who viewed someone's car who is now a customer of mine of 'doing it by eye.' He must have ultrasonic eyes or something.


is this him?


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## Gleammachine (Sep 8, 2007)

Why's he covered his eyes with an air filter?


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## hotwaxxx (Jul 12, 2007)

Gleammachine said:


> Why's he covered his eyes with an air filter?


:lol::lol::lol:


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## Frothey (Apr 30, 2007)

Gleammachine said:


> Why's he covered his eyes with an air filter?


to stop him getting dust from polishing in the ultrasonics. obviously.


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