# EVs will be liable for VED from next year



## ridders66 (May 24, 2019)

Read on road.cc today that EVs will be liable for VED from next year. Personally I think its a good idea as, whether they emit emissions or not, they still take up a lot of space on the roads,(Many are huge), they still cause congestion and still wear the roads out. And they're only carbon neutral once they've done about 150,000 miles.
What's the general thoughts on here?


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## Andyblue (Jun 20, 2017)

Doesn’t surprise me - there was no way that it could be sustained with the push to get people into electric vehicles - I don’t have an issue with it, think they should have been charged from day 1, but I do think a reduced rate (rather than 0) would have been better


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## JU5T1N (Dec 7, 2019)

Maybe VED should be based on the overall environmental impact including resources used to manufacture and how recyclable the parts are. Ev's also wear out the roads quicker because there much heavier than the petrol/diesel equivalent.


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## R_macus (2 mo ago)

This is a CAT994A.
It burns approximately 1,000 litres of fuel in 12 hours, moves approximately 250 tonnes of dirt to extract the materials needed to make ONE Tesla battery.
To make each battery, you need to treat:

12 tons of brine for lithium,
15 tons of ore for cobalt
3 tons of ore for nickel,
12 tons of ore for copper
And move 250 tons of the earth's crust.
For just - one - battery, which has about:

12 kg of lithium
30 kg of nickel
22 kg of manganese
15 kg of cobalt
100 kg of copper
200 kg of aluminum, steel and plastic
And people still believe in "zero emissions" when they drive their electric cars.... ,














and we didn’t mention “recycling “


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

They were always going to end up taxed when the shortfall of VED got too big. Ideas including charging per mile has been mentioned for years.


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## sharrkey (Sep 11, 2017)

R_macus said:


> This is a CAT994A.
> It burns approximately 1,000 litres of fuel in 12 hours, moves approximately 250 tonnes of dirt to extract the materials needed to make ONE Tesla battery.
> To make each battery, you need to treat:
> 
> ...


Wow that’s a proper eye opener 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## Darlofan (Nov 24, 2010)

Just the start. As the balance tips to EVs the data that they're not as environmentally friendly as 1st thought will start to be used by the government to announce bigger taxes. It's the whole push to get everyone into diesels 15 years ago all over again.


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## RS3 (Mar 5, 2018)

It was always going to happen. Quite right too. Luckily, my Electric is a company car so they will cop for it.
I got mine as it makes financial sense given I get free electric. Would I buy electric with my own money - actually yes, cause its brilliant as a daily driver - effortless and so comfortable but not for the environment as we all know electric cars are worse - only the climate change hoax is driving sales.


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## JU5T1N (Dec 7, 2019)

New Petrol and diesel are banned from 2030, so whats gonna happen to the price of electricity as the demand soars?, there probably start taxing it like petrol/diesel to drive down the demand or infrastructure isn't gonna be able to cope. Not only will the price of the vehicles surge as the materials to manufacture the batteries become more scarce, there be taxed to the point no one apart from the very rich can afford to own one. Probably pay per mile or pay to drive on certain roads and taxes on the electric.


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## muzzer (Feb 13, 2011)

Kerr said:


> They were always going to end up taxed when the shortfall of VED got too big. Ideas including charging per mile has been mentioned for years.


Yep this is spot on, it's only a matter of time before road pricing becomes the next big thing. Be it the shower of incompetents currently in charge or more likely, the next time Labour is in power but it will happen.


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## JU5T1N (Dec 7, 2019)

Try voting your way out of the 2030 petrol/diesel ban  , despite the fact it's really unpopular.
Even faking the support for all the "green" policies, takes funding eco terrorist groups paying the protesters, having the police stand down while they commit terrorism, then plastering it all over the media.


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## andy665 (Nov 1, 2005)

I have believed for years that at some point in the future the tide will turn against EVs, just as it has done with diesel. Too many stupid bureaucrats focused on EV emissions and considered nothing else about them or the manufacturing process before running headlong down the EV path.

Remember the reliance on Russian gas - guess which country controls most of the deposits of raw materials required for the batteries in EVs - that friend of the planet China


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## JU5T1N (Dec 7, 2019)

Does anyone seriously think we will be driving around tax free in ev's with this lot to pay for

In 1 year of operation Covid 'Track & Trace' cost £13 billion
In January 2022, Sunak wrote off £4.3 billion of Covid fraud
UK has given £3.8 billion to Ukraine, with more promised
UK has £11.4 billion foreign aid budget
£11.6 billion pledged to 'Climate emergency'
£2.5 billion on hotels for Channel migrants - brought here by UK government

The new ev taxes are gonna be much more than current ved and fuel duty combined.


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## LeeH (Jan 29, 2006)

sharrkey said:


> Wow that’s a proper eye opener
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Depends on the source of the data tbf.


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## Andy from Sandy (May 6, 2011)

Buy a new petrol or diesel at last knockings in 2029 and keep it going for as long as possible. We don't know but with the push within racing to go for biofuel it might just be made available for road going cars.


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## Darlofan (Nov 24, 2010)

muzzer said:


> Yep this is spot on, it's only a matter of time before road pricing becomes the next big thing. Be it the shower of incompetents currently in charge or more likely, the next time Labour is in power but it will happen.


Labour hate motorists, look at Wales. 20mph from next year, now that's fine in certain areas but the areas round here where they trialled it are ridiculous. One is a main road from one side of a town to the other! Big outcry about it costing 32million, then suddenly last week they announced research has shown in the first 12mths it will save the government 100 million. 😂😂😂


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## muzzer (Feb 13, 2011)

Darlofan said:


> Labour hate motorists, look at Wales


That much was evident when they came to power in 1997 or whatever year it was Blair won the election, petrol jumped by 60p a litre overnight. Every government since has used the motorist as a cash cow and every government from now forward will continue to do the same.


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## JU5T1N (Dec 7, 2019)

muzzer said:


> Every government since has used the motorist as a cash cow and every government from now forward will continue to do the same.


Very true to fund a bunch of policies no one wants like the ones I listed above. You won't ever be able to vote your way out of it any of it. A win for democracy.


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## MDC250 (Jan 4, 2014)

JU5T1N said:


> New Petrol and diesel are banned from 2030, so whats gonna happen to the price of electricity as the demand soars?, there probably start taxing it like petrol/diesel to drive down the demand or infrastructure isn't gonna be able to cope. Not only will the price of the vehicles surge as the materials to manufacture the batteries become more scarce, there be taxed to the point no one apart from the very rich can afford to own one. Probably pay per mile or pay to drive on certain roads and taxes on the electric.


The price differential between diesel and petrol is starting to get very silly now. Almost like it’s contrived…


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## JU5T1N (Dec 7, 2019)

Diesel is also used as heating oil since gas is now unaffordable more people have switched to oil driving up the price. Its almost like the forever war that caused all this was contrived.


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## Andy from Sandy (May 6, 2011)

JU5T1N said:


> since gas is now unaffordable more people have switched to oil driving up the price.


Do you have a source for that?

I cannot see people going to the expense of having a 1000 litre bunded tank placed on their property as well as the cost of a new boiler.

Kerosene is used for heating oil.


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## mikep99 (May 26, 2018)

turned into one of those threads again. won't be long now....

*Sent from my M2007J17G using Forum Fiend v1.4.3.*


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## JU5T1N (Dec 7, 2019)

Andy from Sandy said:


> Do you have a source for that?
> 
> I cannot see people going to the expense of having a 1000 litre bunded tank placed on their property as well as the cost of a new boiler.
> 
> Kerosene is used for heating oil.


Diesel and Kerosene is refined in the same way.
Might not make sense for a home but for a commercial premises it does.

American is having a diesel shortage due to high demand and obviously no one can have russian oil any more because putin is the current thing bogeyman.


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## 121DOM (Sep 16, 2013)

Andy from Sandy said:


> Buy a new petrol or diesel at last knockings in 2029 and keep it going for as long as possible. We don't know but with the push within racing to go for biofuel it might just be made available for road going cars.


I’m starting my shopping list already and for hybrids in 2034 😎


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## OldskoolRS (May 5, 2011)

I'm running a 13 year old Ka and 7 year old Mercedes C200 at the moment, so I figure I could be doing similar until about 2037, assuming I replace them at various points over the years. After that point I'll be early 70s and maybe won't bother with my own car as I certainly can't get excited about an EV. They don't even make sense financially for me due to the amount I'd have to spend to buy one so I could 'save' money.

Wondering what the low VED petrol cars will get raised to though? Currently paying £30 per year for the Ka and will probably replace it with something that is currently £30 or less (some options are £0 tax too such as Fiat 500 TwinAir). Only using about £40 a month of petrol in the Ka at the moment and the C200 only gets used for long trips, where an EV wouldn't be so good anyway.


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## Darlofan (Nov 24, 2010)

OldskoolRS said:


> I'm running a 13 year old Ka and 7 year old Mercedes C200 at the moment, so I figure I could be doing similar until about 2037, assuming I replace them at various points over the years. After that point I'll be early 70s and maybe won't bother with my own car as I certainly can't get excited about an EV. They don't even make sense financially for me due to the amount I'd have to spend to buy one so I could 'save' money.
> 
> Wondering what the low VED petrol cars will get raised to though? Currently paying £30 per year for the Ka and will probably replace it with something that is currently £30 or less (some options are £0 tax too such as Fiat 500 TwinAir). Only using about £40 a month of petrol in the Ka at the moment and the C200 only gets used for long trips, where an EV wouldn't be so good anyway.


VED has for years now been all about the environment. Now EV is getting more common it will be re-branded again(ahhh, the old car tax😁). We'll then start to hear about the state of the roads and because EVs are heavier etc the new VED will be all about that. Should keep them taxing until batteries are found to be more damaging than diesel.


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## NickP (Nov 20, 2005)

JU5T1N said:


> View attachment 82753
> 
> 
> Maybe VED should be based on the overall environmental impact including resources used to manufacture and how recyclable the parts are. Ev's also wear out the roads quicker because there much heavier than the petrol/diesel equivalent.


Above photo is of the Diavik Diamond mine which speaks volumes about how well researched this is....


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## ikon66 (Jul 23, 2008)

From 2025 now according to the autumn statement


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## JU5T1N (Dec 7, 2019)

NickP said:


> Above photo is of the Diavik Diamond mine which speaks volumes about how well researched this is....


Type lithium mine into google images and look at the hundreds of similar pictures.


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## RS3 (Mar 5, 2018)

JU5T1N said:


> Type lithium mine into google images and look at the hundreds of similar pictures.


The idea that "research" is required to post a meme is pretty odd but what's funny is the fact that your Meme is indeed Greenbushes Lithium Mine south of Perth, Australia and not the Diavik diamond mine.


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## packard (Jun 8, 2009)

So will it apply to new or existing vehicles from this date ?,,,


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## Darlofan (Nov 24, 2010)

packard said:


> So will it apply to new or existing vehicles from this date ?,,,


I'd hazard a guess that it will be all.


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## Mikesphotaes (Jul 24, 2016)

ridders66 said:


> Read on road.cc today that EVs will be liable for VED from next year. Personally I think its a good idea as, whether they emit emissions or not, they still take up a lot of space on the roads,(Many are huge), they still cause congestion and still wear the roads out. And they're only carbon neutral once they've done about 150,000 miles.
> What's the general thoughts on here?


2025 was announced as the date in Parliament!


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## Soul boy 68 (Sep 8, 2013)

How would this work I wonder, it’s not like the current system where VED is based on emissions and type, size of engine.? all EVs are the same, just boring batteries and motors.


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## AndyN01 (Feb 16, 2016)

Soul boy 68 said:


> How would this work I wonder, it’s not like the current system where VED is based on emissions and type, size of engine.? all EVs are the same, just boring batteries and motors.


Now that's a good question. Not having, nor likely to have, an EV in the foreseeable future I hadn't given it any thought.

Folks are right though, it was always going to come, just a matter of time.

Battery size/capacity?
Weight?
Cost when new?

Andy


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## ridders66 (May 24, 2019)

I would guess it either may be on the KWh output of the batteries or by size and weight. 
Or perhaps on cost? So Porsche Taycan drivers will pay more than Nissan Leaf drivers?


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## OldskoolRS (May 5, 2011)

ridders66 said:


> I would guess it either may be on the KWh output of the batteries or by size and weight.
> Or perhaps on cost? So Porsche Taycan drivers will pay more than Nissan Leaf drivers?


My wife was asking this last night; I wonder if based on the original list price? A flat rate for all seems a bit unfair to the Leaf owner (I mean they've got to put up with looking at that ugly car on their drive already, given them a break.  ).


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## macca666 (Mar 30, 2010)

Soul boy 68 said:


> How would this work I wonder, it’s not like the current system where VED is based on emissions and type, size of engine.? all EVs are the same, just boring batteries and motors.


Unless I'm having a senior moment which is entirely possible are you referring to older cars as VED now is based on the cost of the car is it not from 2017?

Apart from obviously the first year which won't effect us as its paid by the dealer.


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## Itstony (Jan 19, 2018)

Good topic, but as of today any legislation or just topics sent to the media to test the reaction, it will be changed tomorrow.
All of governments in the UK are simply working from the seat of their pants on everything. It's more about the moment and ad-hoc reaction to everything.
They are all eating themselves alive trying to be something different and failing.
So, tax will be applied to everything and everything. As for plans, nobody dare hold their breath on anything.


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## SadlyDistracted (Jan 18, 2013)

After the lies behind dieselgate (why just single out VW when Audi, Seat and Skoda use the same engines..?) and I seem to recall a decade or 2 ago that diesel was going to save us from the consumption and pollution of pertrol - now the u-turn on that. How many years before the EV Gate and the U-turn on it?

Whay arn't the fact from R-marcus on the front pages of the EV truths countering the soundbites/spindoctoring/ideology blah blah (just dare I say it like bfxit) ... Or is it just a way of raising vehicle costs/prices to end consumers, or is it a way of pricing the average motorists off the roads to make way for those that can afford the bloody things - and to what end user gain (other than corporate proffits/greed) ?


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## SadlyDistracted (Jan 18, 2013)

Darlofan said:


> VED has for years now been all about the environment. Now EV is getting more common it will be re-branded again(ahhh, the old car tax😁). We'll then start to hear about the state of the roads and because EVs are heavier etc the new VED will be all about that. Should keep them taxing until batteries are found to be more damaging than diesel.


Why can't it be honest - remember when it was called the RFL - Road Fund Licence - then the revenue would simply be spent on Road funding (Or a 'Trading' standards claim!) - even at current levels dont they take ~£25B from ICEs taxation, then EV's would legitamately have to pay RFL (possibly at higher rate as they are generally heavier / wear out roads more)? - We'd have the best roads in the world - probably despite the ineficiences of whatever the Highway Agency's called now and Local councils pay out to private companies. Might even be able to recruit smart planners for 'smart' roads..?


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## Mugwump (Feb 17, 2008)

SadlyDistracted said:


> ......remember when it was called the RFL - Road Fund Licence ....


I doubt if many people will remember that - it ceased to be reserved for spending on the roads (and ceased to be officially designated Road Fund Licence) in 1936, so those that do remember will probably be over 90.

Since 1936, it has been just a tax on car ownership, and officially named Vehicle Exise Duty, so no relationship to roads at all.


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## SadlyDistracted (Jan 18, 2013)

Darlofan said:


> Labour hate motorists, look at Wales. 20mph from next year, now that's fine in certain areas but the areas round here where they trialled it are ridiculous. One is a main road from one side of a town to the other! Big outcry about it costing 32million, then suddenly last week they announced research has shown in the first 12mths it will save the government 100 million. 😂😂😂


Stupid, protecting life from Darwinism, it dumbs down the species!


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## SadlyDistracted (Jan 18, 2013)

MDC250 said:


> The price differential between diesel and petrol is starting to get very silly now. Almost like it’s contrived…


I seem to recall a few years back that going diesel was going to be a savious as: Engines are more thermally efficient (hence better mpg) then petrol, less fuel needed than petrol, you get more diesel from a barrel of crude compared to petrol, less energy (pollution) is needed to refine a gallon/liter of diesel than petrol...the greater volume of diesel, not to mention all the previous concern over CO2, where diesel being more efficient poduces less than petrol etc, e.g. why do lorries, ships etc use diesel/diesel oil and not petrol... 

Yet again things badly 'managed' (well spun for those with short memories) by those in charge (who voted for them? Obviously they were not inteligent enough to vote ...) and the 'people' have to pay for such Machiavellian behaviours, if they're that competent. Makes you wonder what competancy tests they (should) have to pass to get to be in ministerial positions... other than being incompetent at making things better (i.e. worse) for the average UK Joe (but odd they always seem to ok for themselves despite who's paying for them) ?


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## SadlyDistracted (Jan 18, 2013)

AndyN01 said:


> Battery size/capacity?
> Weight?
> Cost when new?
> 
> Andy


Nah should be: Battery size/capacity x Weight x Cost when new, and if parked on the road (not on owners driveway/ gagage) x 3 should just about do it ?


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

SadlyDistracted said:


> you get more diesel from a barrel of crude


It's more petrol than diesel from a barrel of crude.


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## Andy from Sandy (May 6, 2011)

Why Diesel Costs more than Petrol in the UK | Misfuelling Services (forecourtassist.co.uk)
Any GCSE chemistry student can tell you that diesel requires less refining than petrol and less crude oil to produce. Although diesel requires less crude oil per litre than petrol does to produce, newly established standards for lower sulphur diesel require a more complex refining process.


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## SadlyDistracted (Jan 18, 2013)

Andy from Sandy said:


> Why Diesel Costs more than Petrol in the UK | Misfuelling Services (forecourtassist.co.uk)
> Any GCSE chemistry student can tell you that diesel requires less refining than petrol and less crude oil to produce. Although diesel requires less crude oil per litre than petrol does to produce, newly established standards for lower sulphur diesel require a more complex refining process.


Yet again more taxation exploitation.
I also recall that ULSD was 5% less energy efficient compared to 'normal' pre ULSD (just like e10 petrol) - why I always used to fill up in France or Belgium when returning from europe.

We also fail to forget that governments here treat us as 'commodities' to be exploited for tax at the 'best rate' possible and no benefits to where the tax is taken from.


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## JU5T1N (Dec 7, 2019)

And the real agenda is.


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## SadlyDistracted (Jan 18, 2013)

Whats ^ from, (Minister for Transport)?

Get plebs earning less then ~£100K priced off the roads (but get tax off the plebs to cover the costs) ?


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## JU5T1N (Dec 7, 2019)

It's from a group called C40 Cities.


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## SadlyDistracted (Jan 18, 2013)

Hmm rock on for such major cities they should have decent public transport. 
When I was in Dusseldorf a few (nn) years ago I found their public transport brill, way better then anyting in the uk, Paris's metro wasnt bad either,.both way cheaper than london underground (never been able to get on withthe busses there but only an infrequent visitor), and fortunately, or not, I'm nowhere near a major city and their congestion.


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## JU5T1N (Dec 7, 2019)

On a detailing forum your for abolishing private vehicle ownership.  
The congestion is just a symptom of the much bigger issues.


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## SadlyDistracted (Jan 18, 2013)

I'm not for abolishing car ownership at all, it just seem to be the government/councils are pricing cars so that only teh wealthy will be able to posess/use them and seems like those C40 (97 cities) have an agenda though, pricing things out of reach /useability for many making it a preserve for the wealthy.
Driving standards, the lack of them is a policing and culture issue.
As for (parking selfishness) bad practice/congestions certain Japanees cities have an answer; no registered car parking place, no car and only as many cars as registered parking spaces - simple for getting car glut parking / pavement malpractice down, would likely upset many though, but then should many be able to 'park' unsafely / inconveniencing (so) many, food for thought.

Perhaps we can see the ho ho ho in 'mery xmas' , buy an expensive EV or get off the roads or we'll financially 2nd tax / charge you for the privilage of not having done so? Car companies proffit, taxation proffits, corportions will no doubt claim tax relief, all while consumers pay more.
It would be good if cars lasted longer mind and were more repairable and cost effectively.


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## Andy from Sandy (May 6, 2011)

In theory the right to repair should take care of some of that. Most cars or the ones I have had easily last more than 10 years. How many should they last?

I read somewhere that some ridiculous regulation made it more cost effective to manufacture SUVs than "normal" cars which is madness. As for price they are stupidly expensive and that nit-wit from the SMMT doesn't make a compelling argument to justify their price either.

And finally as per the uk.gov website the ved charge will be introduced in 2025 and not next year. I meant to make that comment earlier but just remembered to look it up - Introduction of Vehicle Excise Duty for zero emission cars, vans and motorcycles from 2025 - GOV.UK (www.gov.uk)


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## Andy from Sandy (May 6, 2011)

deleted


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## ridders66 (May 24, 2019)

I had to move our new EV van demonstrator yesterday. It was frozen solid, no problem said the salesman. They defrost really quickly, so he puts all the heating on, surely enough by the time I had finished my coffee the windows were clear and it was toastie warm inside.
Knocked almost 80 miles off the range though.  
That’s absolutely mad. It’s almost akin to using half a tank of fuel to defrost your vehicle.


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## JU5T1N (Dec 7, 2019)

The cold effects the batteries so you get less range than usual, in a petrol/diesel car the heating uses the engine heat the only electric is the fans blowing it in the interior.
An EV has to use an heating element to heat the interior which draws alot of power and has a large impact on the range.


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## ridders66 (May 24, 2019)

JU5T1N said:


> The cold effects the batteries so you get less range than usual, in a petrol/diesel car the heating uses the engine heat the only electric is the fans blowing it in the interior.
> An EV has to use an heating element to heat the interior which draws alot of power and has a large impact on the range.


Correct. One of the managers was also saying that his Tesla heating hasn’t been getting as warm over the past few days, as full heat batters the range too much, so it is restricted.


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## The Cueball (Feb 8, 2007)

Some people just don’t know how to use EVs in the cold.

Preheat whilst plugged in and use the seat warmers and not ‘heating’ 

Mine has no range loss due to heating the cabin.. 

Yes yes, lucky to have a charger at home, etc etc… :wall: 

Just watching mine defrost now whilst I’m having my breakfast in the warmth… listening to the sounds of neighbours furiously scraping away at their Dinomobiles.

:thumb:


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## RS3 (Mar 5, 2018)

Im now down to 150 mile range on my Enyaq 80 (about 300 in summer) due to the preheating - I don't have charging at home as its free at work.
The enyaq has a 7kw battery heater which is on for most of the 7 mile journey to work. The interior heater is 5 kw and is on from 5 mins before I get in so its 12kw as you set off.
Lovely getting in a toasty car every morning though.


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## ridders66 (May 24, 2019)

The Cueball said:


> Some people just don’t know how to use EVs in the cold.
> 
> Preheat whilst plugged in and use the seat warmers and not ‘heating’
> 
> ...


That’s of course assuming that you’re connected to power when your car is frozen solid. What about if someone is, say parked outside a remote country inn in the Lake District?


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## IvorB1H (6 mo ago)

Does the remote country inn have a power supply ?


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## ridders66 (May 24, 2019)

IvorB1H said:


> Does the remote country inn have a power supply ?


I would guess most don’t have a charger for EVs, and probably wouldn’t want to plug a car into the mains for two days. 😂


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## IvorB1H (6 mo ago)

Surely you’d book at least two days 🤣


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## SadlyDistracted (Jan 18, 2013)

IvorB1H said:


> Surely you’d book at least two days 🤣


It'd be quicker travelling by horse then?


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## 121DOM (Sep 16, 2013)

SadlyDistracted said:


> It'd be quicker travelling by horse then?


Only one horse power but four wheel drive could come in handy with snow about. 🐎🐎🐎


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