# A bit of advice please



## PitchPerfect (Feb 15, 2019)

Hi guys! 

I’m looking to purchase a rotational polisher and a da polisher. I am, I guess, classed as a professional user as I work in a Bodyshop and Know how to use one. I have a budget of around £400-450 for the pair. What are regarded as the bread and butter? 

Side note, I won’t be using these on fresh paint.

Thanks in advance!!


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## MBRuss (Apr 29, 2011)

For that budget maybe Dodo Juice Spin Doctor and a DAS 6 Pro or Pro Plus.

If you can stretch, the pro machines are ones from the likes of Rupes and Flex. Both manufacturers do rotary polishers and DA's.

That said, a lot of bodyshops probably just get a tool from the likes of DeWalt or similar and use that. I think the Rupes and Flex alternatives are probably lighter and nicer to handle though.

Sent from my LYA-L09 using Tapatalk


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## AndyN01 (Feb 16, 2016)

As you'll be using the machine professionally I'd definitely go for a pro machine.

IMHO there's a world of difference between one of "us" using a machine as and when and a pro using one every day

Rupes or Flex spring to mind.

Andy.


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## big dave 666 (Aug 2, 2014)

The new rupes range are lovely to use. That is the LHR19E rotary, and the MILLE, which is a forced rotation. Obviously you have a range of DA's from Rupes should you not want to have a forced rotation machine. I got two great deals before Xmas and was lucky enough to pick up the rupes rotary and the mille for not much over your budget.


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## PitchPerfect (Feb 15, 2019)

I’ve always just used a rotational Milwaukee one and then put the buffer head on my DA sander haha! But I’ve decided I want to upgrade. I like the look of that Makita po0600c (something like that) I like the palm grip bit at the top end near the head (excuse my awful terminology) I don’t really like the D handles and not overly keen on the handlebar-like grips that screw into the side either. Whilst polishing I normally find myself gripping centrally above the head. I pray somebody understands what I mean! 

So when you guys say pro tools, I assume you meant the higher quality brands?


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## AndyN01 (Feb 16, 2016)

Something like these:

https://www.flex-tools.com/en/products/l/polishers-2/

or these:

https://www.rupes.com/category-product/electric-tools/electric-tools-polishers/

Check out the weight of the Makita - nearly 4Kg. vs, say a Flex PE 14-2 at 2.2Kg.

Which would you want to still be holding at the end of each day?

Andy.


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## Christian6984 (Dec 20, 2007)

having come from a RO DA, i like the flex 3401 forced rotation DA, and its not to heavy and the middle ground for me feeling a little safer than a rotary, but would consider one of their rotary polishers if i wanted one as they are quite light (two days with a sealey rotary on a corsa years ago, my arms were a little sore). I have read the long throw machines like the rupes have a little less vibration than the Flex DA


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## PitchPerfect (Feb 15, 2019)

Can someone explain the whole forces rotation thing? So is it basically DA that’s forced to rotate still? Also, I’ve head that DA polishers “stall” under pressure or over feature lines/panel recesses etc? Are there ones that can power through like my workshop DA would?


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## Steampunk (Aug 11, 2011)

PitchPerfect said:


> Can someone explain the whole forces rotation thing? So is it basically DA that's forced to rotate still? Also, I've head that DA polishers "stall" under pressure or over feature lines/panel recesses etc? Are there ones that can power through like my workshop DA would?


Forced-rotation DA's posses a secondary gear drive that rotates the backing plate under power at the same time as oscillating. You would have to physically stall the motor to stop it rotating. However, this gear drive locks the BP rotation and orbit into a fixed ratio, and tends to bias their correction power more towards rotation than orbit. They're kind of like a halfway step between a rotary and a free-rotating DA.

Free-rotation DA's rotate the backing plate only as a side-effect of their oscillation, just like a traditional pneumatic palm sander. As such, you can stall out the backing plate's rotation to zero - whilst the machine continues to oscillate - by using excessive pressure or having a panel contour or obstacle physically 'brake' the rotation to a halt by creating a pressure point. This wrecks both their correction power, and finishing ability in such situations. You can work around this with sympathetic technique, though, just like keeping the BP rotating on a sander.

If you never want to stall, no matter how ham-fisted the technique, go forced-rotation. This also means more chance of causing damage on panel edges, similar to a rotary (Though with a lot less RPM behind it, which does make them a bit more forgiving.). However, free-rotating DA's have their advantages, too. There are certain extreme situations where forced-rotation DA's struggle to finish out as well. In any case, combining the tools with the right pads and products is the secret to success with any of them.

Since you're using these tools professionally, I would up your budget a bit if at all possible to include Flex, Festool, Rupes... Even Makita. 400-quid for both tools together unfortunately sticks you with Chinese made knock-offs, which are going to vibrate more (If you're used to using rotaries and pneumatic sanders, the amount of vibration from inexpensive electric DA's is going to be an unpleasant shock. Bad long-term health effects.), and will not hold up to the sort of hours you'll be putting on them. They're okay for occasional enthusiast usage, but for production work, no.

Hopefully this helps...

- Steampunk


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## Bikeracer (Jan 16, 2015)

PitchPerfect said:


> I've always just used a rotational Milwaukee one and then put the buffer head on my DA sander haha! But I've decided I want to upgrade. I like the look of that Makita po0600c (something like that) I like the palm grip bit at the top end near the head (excuse my awful terminology) I don't really like the D handles and not overly keen on the handlebar-like grips that screw into the side either. Whilst polishing I normally find myself gripping centrally above the head. I pray somebody understands what I mean!
> 
> So when you guys say pro tools, I assume you meant the higher quality brands?


I've just started using a Makita PO6000 and I really like it. Feels like a quality machine and a 3yr warranty.
I've used a 5" Rupes backplate on mine and I'm going to try it hopefully tomorrow with a Rupes 3" back plate.

Allan


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## Bikeracer (Jan 16, 2015)

The Makita PO6000 is quoted as Net weight: 2.8 – 3.0 kg probably nearer 2.8kg with a 5' backing plate, and the Rupes Mille is 2.8KG

Got mine for £235 so I would think that you'd get a decent rotary as well in your buget.

Allan


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## suds (Apr 27, 2012)

I would add that Festool can supply a machine which can be switched between a DA or forced rotation. You could then later upgrade your rotary when funds permit.


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## PitchPerfect (Feb 15, 2019)

Thank you for such an in depth answer! I really appreciate it! 

So would something like a DAS-6 v2 last me 3-6 months do you think? I’d like to experiment with some of the more detailing aspects of polishing and going for that’s perfect like glass finish rather than Bodyshop techniques like matching orange peels and lacquer defect corrections.

What would you recommend for writhing my budget? Needs to last 3-6 months whilst I experiment and hone my skills, at which point I will invest in the top banana, holy grails of the retailer polishing world... . But I can’t justify it at the moment.


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## Steampunk (Aug 11, 2011)

PitchPerfect said:


> Thank you for such an in depth answer! I really appreciate it!
> 
> So would something like a DAS-6 v2 last me 3-6 months do you think? I'd like to experiment with some of the more detailing aspects of polishing and going for that's perfect like glass finish rather than Bodyshop techniques like matching orange peels and lacquer defect corrections.
> 
> What would you recommend for writhing my budget? Needs to last 3-6 months whilst I experiment and hone my skills, at which point I will invest in the top banana, holy grails of the retailer polishing world... . But I can't justify it at the moment.


If it's just for 3-6 months, then yes, a DAS-6 should easily last that long... They just won't last years in a professional environment, and day-in, day-out usage will eventually catch up with your hands and wrists regarding vibration. If you just want to experiment a bit, and learn - unsure possibly of whether or not the investment will pay off monetarily - then starting off at an entry level is perfectly fine in the short-term.

That said, if you start with a DAS-6 V2, what you'll be learning is how to use and get the best from 8-9mm orbit free-rotation DA's. If your next tool is a long-throw free rotation machine (12-21mm orbit), or a short-throw forced-rotation machine (3-8mm, but gear driven.), there will be a whole new learning curve, and probably also a whole new pad system that will come with that. DA's are a little more specific, and less technique/product transferable than rotaries.

If you're shooting for 'glass-like perfect', I'm assuming that your process is going to start with wetsanding to level all orange peel, and then these tools in question are going to be used for subsequent refinement of that finish... Correct? Or is this just for rectification of finish marring from swirls, scratches, etc, installed somewhere down the line post-application?

Any single tool you get will be capable of this, even a sub 100-quid DA, if paired with the right pads and polishes. You can pull out up to P1500 with microfiber, and a non-diminishing compound on an entry-level DAS-6 no problem with the right technique... Then finish out beautifully with another step. With a rotary, you could achieve the same, though on very soft paint it can be more challenging, and might take more steps (Though each of those steps will be individually faster.).

With whatever machine you'd like to try, the pads and polishes will be the real investment in achieving the sort of results you are looking for, so by all means - if only 3-6 months is your goal - save a bit on the machine, and plow what you save into good materials and plenty of them. I would just pick a direction that sounds interesting to you, and then spend your time and money optimizing that tool to get the kind of results you're looking for. If glass is what you want, you can achieve it with any tool; it just always starts with sanding, and plentiful quantities of paint to work with.

Hope this helps... If you have any more questions, please feel free to ask.

- Steampunk


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## PitchPerfect (Feb 15, 2019)

Again, thank you for your time! 

The route I want to take and refine are, firstly the mirror finish which yes, would firstly require working through the grades down to probably P3000 Trizact and then the various polishing/compounding grades. The other avenue would be the “freshening up” of dreary tired paintwork, the bush ‘scratches’ and general wear and tear.

What would be your suggestions in regards to machines to fulfil my needs? Or more importantly the compounds and heads? Coming from a Bodyshop the majority of my experience is with the 3M green, yellow and blue, the G3 compounds and ROAR. So I am all ears to any recommendations 

Thanks!


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## PitchPerfect (Feb 15, 2019)

The DODO Sasquatch looks pretty cool, infact dodo as a brand seen to appear a lot in the posts I’ve been looking at? How do they fair in the grand scheme of things?


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## ARTB1400 (Mar 31, 2016)

In your budget of about 450 for both you can look for Rupes LH18ENS Rotary and LHR15 Mark II DA.


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## PitchPerfect (Feb 15, 2019)

ARTB1400 said:


> In your budget of about 450 for both you can look for Rupes LH18ENS Rotary and LHR15 Mark II DA.


I can't find the pair for under £450, where did you find them?

Also, steampunk for £500 what would you recommend. For my needs including polishes and heads?

Thanks


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## Steampunk (Aug 11, 2011)

PitchPerfect said:


> Again, thank you for your time!
> 
> The route I want to take and refine are, firstly the mirror finish which yes, would firstly require working through the grades down to probably P3000 Trizact and then the various polishing/compounding grades. The other avenue would be the "freshening up" of dreary tired paintwork, the bush 'scratches' and general wear and tear.
> 
> ...





PitchPerfect said:


> Also, steampunk for £500 what would you recommend. For my needs including polishes and heads?
> 
> Thanks


Thank you for outlining your needs... This helps. It seems you'll be working on a mix of fresh, well cured refinishes, and OEM finishes, as well... So you'll be dealing with a mix of hardness levels.

Starting with machines, what types would I recommend? That's a pretty big question... Honestly, you can make any type of machine work for you, but which is the best place to start depends on a variety of factors...

Let me run down some pros and cons with the different tools based upon my experience, to help you figure out what might match your application:

*Rotary Polisher -*

Pro: High speed allows for fastest compounding/polishing set-times, lowest vibration, widest selection of pad sizes that cover both very tight and very large areas, machine can be tilted extremely to allow for correction in cramped confines on exotic cars, can polish right up to edges as there is no oscillation. You also already are familiar with this tool, so for your job, you can hit the ground running. Also, typically the most durable tool.

Con: Generates most heat for the paint (not good) when using pressure to chase deeper defects in 1-hit, requires greatest thoughtfullness around panel lines and other delicate areas, most challenging to use on soft/sticky paint types (2-3 steps often needed, and some trial & error with technique, where a DA might be able to do it with greater ease in just 1-2.), does not have as much capability in 1-step polishing as a DA (Narrower band of finishing/cutting potential.) when only 1-step is on the cards due to time/money.

Best suited to: 2-3 stage correction, correcting heavy defects with wool, low-pressure working style, medium-very hard (less heat sensitive) paints.

*Forced Rotation DA -*

Pro: Maintains full correction power under heavy pressure, in concave panels, and tight sections, with much less heat buildup than a rotary (Even when using heavy pressure.), less chance of holograms, and a wider band of cutting & finishing performance in 1-step polishing. Halfway point between rotary and DA in terms of style and abilities.

Con: Less versatile in regards to pad/backing plate sizes, on the _absolute softest_ of materials (Gloss plastic trim, the odd paint.) still more difficult to finish flawlessly than a free-rotating DA [unless you are using a dual-mode machine, like Festool or Makita, which has both free and forced modes], polish cycle-times still slower than rotary.

Best suited to: 1-2 stage correction, correcting heavy defects with wool or foam, medium-high pressure working style, soft-hard paints (Unless dual-mode; then very soft-hard paints.). These are having a resurgence of late.

*'Standard-Throw' (8-9mm) DA - *

Pro: Cheapest entry price, master of none capable of [almost] all, easiest and safest to use, some backing plate size versatility (Though not as much as rotary, and there is a vibration penalty.), and can double as a sander if you ever need to work away from air. Can be made to work on pretty much any finish, no matter how tricky.

Con: No professional upgrade path, slowest cycle-time, must be observant to avoid rotational stall, typically highest vibration, cannot work products as hard to extract maximum potential due to low power. Acceptable for professional application only as an incidental tool; not main.

Best suited to: 1-2 stage correction, correcting heavy defects with microfiber, medium-high pressure working style, very soft-normal paints.

*Long-Throw (12-21mm) DA -*

Pro: Almost as safe and easy to use as standard-throw DA, but much faster cycle times (Similar or faster than forced-rotation; still a little less than rotary.), still a good choice for tricky materials due to free-rotation (Though not always as easily as shorter-throw machines.), widest cut/finish ratio for 1-stepping, excellent training support for professional upgrade, good pneumatic tool options available if you never work away from air (More power, less weight, less vibration, lower entry price, longer life.).

Con: Zero backing plate versatility (Must buy multiple machines to use different pad sizes.), expensive 'system' to buy into, bad in tight areas, cannot polish up to the edge of obstacles, easiest to stall in concave sections (Lots of care required.), very sensitive to pad and compound/polish selection regarding vibration/kickback.

Best suited to: 1-2 stage correction, correcting heavy defects with foam (Microfiber and wool also, which cut even better, but sometimes with penalty in machine kickback.), low-medium pressure working style, fairly soft-hard paints. This is the direction a lot of the industry is going.

-

Once you narrow down a direction that sounds good to you, pads/polishes can be figured out. Since you're only looking for some tool/tools to play with, something like the more affordable rebranded machines sold by CYC would be a good place to start probably (UK/EU members might be able to help you more, there.): https://www.cleanyourcar.co.uk/paint-correction/polishing-machines. The first step is just figuring out what type(s) you want to try...

If a rotary suits you as your main tool (The one you'll have in your hands at least 70% of the time.), having a DAS-6 or DAS-6 Pro to back it up in rarer situations would be a good combo. Then upgrade and switch to a forced-rotation or long-throw professional machine if you end up using it more than 20% of the time, and need the extra power/speed/smoothness.

If you want to go long-throw, you're going to want both a 5-6" and a 3" version, and it would probably be better to focus your energy on building that 'system' rather than adding a rotary into the mix, as well...

Hopefully this helps to narrow things down. Happy to help as much as I can with pads/polishes once the playing field is narrowed a bit... :thumb:

- Steampunk

P.S. Since you're using the Trizact system (My favorite for P1500 & above, though I like Mirka for heavier work; Abranet is awesome if you need to go P1000 & below.), I would check out the P5000 or P6000 discs sometime... You can finish afterwards in 1-step with a medium polish/polishing pad combo on a DA. Awesome stuff.


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## matty.13 (May 3, 2011)

Have a watch of this , it may help you 





Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## PitchPerfect (Feb 15, 2019)

So I’m leaning towards a couple of dodo polishers potentially spin doctor and DAS-15. The look good and reviews seem good too? Would these be pretty safe choices to experiment with?

Or the Makita po6000c, which has a setting to do from DA to forced rotation?


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## Steampunk (Aug 11, 2011)

PitchPerfect said:


> So I'm leaning towards a couple of dodo polishers potentially spin doctor and DAS-15. The look good and reviews seem good too? Would these be pretty safe choices to experiment with?
> 
> Or the Makita po6000c, which has a setting to do from DA to forced rotation?


Dodo-Juice is a good company... I like them a lot. However, 1000rpm minimum start speed and the lack of a trigger are both no-go features for me. I'd look at something like this instead: https://www.cleanyourcar.co.uk/ep801-compact-rotary-polisher.

Nothing wrong with the Dodo DAS-15, or pairing these tools, providing you only work on big, open, largely flat panels. In tighter and curvier sections you'll be turning back to your rotary, and probably needing to use an entirely different selection of products (As well as maybe more steps, if the paint is soft, and a very different technique.) as the only solution...

The PO6000C only comes with a 6" backing plate for use with 6.5-7" pads, which again limits you to working on large areas... Unless you're polishing Range Rovers all day, that pad size gets awkward on a lot of panels. You really need the ability to work with 3-4" pads, as well.

An EP801 and a DAS-6 V2 will get you out the door for a bit over 200 quid; I don't know what your workflow volume is like, but you can spend that extra 2-300 gbp real fast on the stacks of pads and polishes you'll need to keep your quality level high if you're working on a lot of cars...

If you want to go long-throw, pairing a 3" BP 12mm tool, with a 5-6" BP 12-21mm tool is a solid combo (Say, Shinemate or Vertool; Dodo if you'd like your big machine to be snazzy and green. Prices are similar.), and makes a lot more sense. Less money for pads than above, and no security net of rotary, but a little more forgiving and nicer user experience.

Alternatively, you could do both a PO6000C and something like a Shinemate EX603 for spot work, but you'll have very little left over for product... This combo would last you the longest in professional usage, and grow with you, but without consumables to use it with you're still going to be struggling to create top-shelf results...

Hopefully this helps...

- Steampunk


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## PitchPerfect (Feb 15, 2019)

Steampunk, take a bow. You’re incredible, I cannot thank you enough for all of your help! I’ve been on this forum for a matter of days and it’s by far the most helpful forum I’ve ever been a part of. Once I figure out how give thanks I will do so, or if you could point me in the direction, I’d be more than happy!

What are the compounds and heads you’d be leaning towards?

Also I’d like to say that the rabbit hole that is polishing goes waaaaaaaay deeper than I had imagined once you enter the detailing world. From my body shop experience I thought I was reasonably clued up, but there’s a whole new world out here haha!


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## GSVHammer (Feb 7, 2009)

PitchPerfect said:


> Steampunk, take a bow. You're incredible, I cannot thank you enough for all of your help! I've been on this forum for a matter of days and it's by far the most helpful forum I've ever been a part of. Once I figure out how give thanks I will do so, or if you could point me in the direction, I'd be more than happy!
> 
> What are the compounds and heads you'd be leaning towards?
> 
> Also I'd like to say that the rabbit hole that is polishing goes waaaaaaaay deeper than I had imagined once you enter the detailing world. From my body shop experience I thought I was reasonably clued up, but there's a whole new world out here haha!


Just hit the Thanks at the bottom right hand side of Steampunks post. Steampunk does write good articles. You should check out some of his reviews in the polishing section. Make a brew and enjoy a long informative read.


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## Steampunk (Aug 11, 2011)

PitchPerfect said:


> Steampunk, take a bow. You're incredible, I cannot thank you enough for all of your help! I've been on this forum for a matter of days and it's by far the most helpful forum I've ever been a part of. Once I figure out how give thanks I will do so, or if you could point me in the direction, I'd be more than happy!
> 
> What are the compounds and heads you'd be leaning towards?
> 
> Also I'd like to say that the rabbit hole that is polishing goes waaaaaaaay deeper than I had imagined once you enter the detailing world. From my body shop experience I thought I was reasonably clued up, but there's a whole new world out here haha!


No problem, happy to help... Likewise, this forum can always use more bodyshop techs. :thumb:

As for compounds and pads, that really depends on the machine, as well as the sorts of paint you are working on... Different pad designs are made to suit different sorts of machine, in order to ensure low vibration (The pads are part of the counterbalance system on a DA.), and maximize the cutting and finishing potential of specific machine movements. If you wanted to finish out 3K Trizact on a fresh clear (For example), and had four different types of machine, the 'best' combo of pad/polish to tackle that specific sort of defect/paint is more than likely going to be different on all of them.

Also, fresh paint and cured paint, as well as hard and soft finishes are going to respond differently to different types of pads and polishes/compounds, so this is a factor that also comes into consideration when choosing both... The reason why this forum exists is that there are no universal product combinations.

Furthermore, each polish/compound has a unique technique to get the best out of it, so some people prefer one style of working over another, and choose their products accordingly...

This is kind of why the playing field needs to be narrowed a little bit before recommendations can be made regarding compounds/pads...

What machine(s) you'd like to try, what paint line your shop works with, and the sorts of cars you mostly see, as well as a breakdown of the ratio of fresh versus cured/OEM finishes you are working on will help you dial-in the sorts of products to start with... Your tools, pads, and polishes/compounds should be geared with an emphasis to what sort of things you do the most, and whatever is leftover can be applied to the rarer applications, or these situations merely worked around to the best you can with what you have.

Hopefully this helps...

- Steampunk


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## Bikeracer (Jan 16, 2015)

The Rupes 5" backplate fits on the Makita PO6000, so I imagine other cheaper backplates that also fit the Rupes machines will fit.

I was using the Rupes 3" backplate on the Makita yesterday. The 3" backplate just requires the fixing hole drilling out to take the 8 mm bolt and a craft knife to relieve the clearance in the backplate for the captive washer.

The machine is wider than the 3" backplate so could be awkward in tighter spaces.

Allan


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## Steampunk (Aug 11, 2011)

Bikeracer said:


> The Rupes 5" backplate fits on the Makita PO6000, so I imagine other cheaper backplates that also fit the Rupes machines will fit.
> 
> I was using the Rupes 3" backplate on the Makita yesterday. The 3" backplate just requires the fixing hole drilling out to take the 8 mm bolt and a craft knife to relieve the clearance in the backplate for the captive washer.
> 
> ...


I've been following your experiment with some interest... I'm curious; how's the vibration level with the Rupes backing plates versus the factory plate, and what is the runout like? DA's need to be counterbalanced fairly precisely, and even on machines that can accept other plate sizes, there's typically a penalty that comes with it in regards to vibration. I applaud you for your ingenuity in thinking outside the box to find a solution to this, though... Top marks. :thumb:

- Steampunk


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## PitchPerfect (Feb 15, 2019)

So my main substrates for the purposes of these polisher/(s) will be cured oem paint on cars of the last 10 years, occasionally 2k high solids, but probably 1/10-15 maximum. As I said I’m familiar with 3M and G3 that’s about it ha!



Also I’m curious about how the pad face pattern affects things, I’ve seen hex pads, square pads and all other kinds of funny shapes. Surely once used under pressure only the hardness of the pad and the material applied to the head will make a difference?


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## Bikeracer (Jan 16, 2015)

Steampunk said:


> I've been following your experiment with some interest... I'm curious; how's the vibration level with the Rupes backing plates versus the factory plate, and what is the runout like? DA's need to be counterbalanced fairly precisely, and even on machines that can accept other plate sizes, there's typically a penalty that comes with it in regards to vibration. I applaud you for your ingenuity in thinking outside the box to find a solution to this, though... Top marks. :thumb:
> 
> - Steampunk


I have a Rupes Duetto and their LH75, that's how I have both backing plates to hand. I haven't had much cause to use them and when I have I got frustrated with the ease with which they stall.

I need to do a full detail on my Kodiaq and there are so many concave and small and narrow areas that the two Rupes DAs will not hack it before I lose the will to live.

I did think of the new Rupes Mille and asked on the forum for opinions and was pointed in the direction of the Makita. It has virtually the same spec and throw of the Mille but is about half the price, so I bought the Makita and an SPTA rotary which seems to be the same as the Shinemate EP 801 and an assortment of spot pads and backing plates and a set of rotary extension bars all for less than the price of the Rupes Mille alone.

I haven't used the Makita in anger yet but for what little I have used it it does seem a fairly smooth machine, possibly down to the short 5mm throw.
I have no need to try it in pure DA mode but get the impression it might be easy to stall. I'll know for sure when I finally start on the car and try it.

Impression of the Makita so far is of a quality machine and it has a three year warranty.

I only fitted the Rupes backing plate because the English version of the Makita only comes with a 6" backing plate and the proper 5" plate seems unobtainable here.

I also suspect that Rupes used a 6 mm fixing on the LH75 backing plate to stop people using it on such as the Duetto with its 8 mm fixing which as far as I can see is the only reason to do it.
I will have a look later to see if there is any apparent difference in the counterbalance weights of the two Rupes machines. which could possibly explain the need to not use the LH75 plate on the Duetto.
I could well be wrong about this, it's just my opinion that's all.

Allan


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## Steampunk (Aug 11, 2011)

PitchPerfect said:


> So my main substrates for the purposes of these polisher/(s) will be cured oem paint on cars of the last 10 years, occasionally 2k high solids, but probably 1/10-15 maximum. As I said I'm familiar with 3M and G3 that's about it ha!
> 
> Also I'm curious about how the pad face pattern affects things, I've seen hex pads, square pads and all other kinds of funny shapes. Surely once used under pressure only the hardness of the pad and the material applied to the head will make a difference?


Okay... That helps. So 90%+ of your work is getting tired OEM paint back into shape. Any trend patterns in country of origin for the vehicles in question? Germany (Typically hard, though not always.), Japanese (Typically soft, though not always.), etc?

It sounds like the type of damage you're seeing is also towards the deeper end of things, so you need some heavy hitters.

-

For a rotary polisher, wool for heavy cutting to keep the heat down (I tend to like knitted 100% lambswool over twisted. Scholl Concepts make nice pads of this type.), medium-softness closed-cell moderate polishing foam for finishing on harder paints or as an intermediate step on softer ones (Chemical Guy's Hex-Logic White, or Scholl Concepts Orange), and a very soft finishing foam for those paints that struggle to finish down hologram-free (Scholl Black Waffle, CG's Hex-Logic Red, CarPro Gloss, etc.)... There are gaps in this setup, but it's a basic place to start.

Based upon the types of polishes you've been using, Menzerna on rotary would be the most familiar in terms of user style (Long working, linear cycle diminishing, like the 3M system.)... HC400 (Heavy compound), MC2200 (Medium Polish), SF3500 (Fine Polish) if you're mostly working harder paints. HC400, MC2500, SF3800 if you're working on the softer side of things more often. Scholl Concepts is actually my preference (S3+ XXL, S17+, S30+ hard paint; S3+ XXL, S20 _Blue_, S40 soft paint... Direct equivalents with Menz.), but it would require a major change in technique... Scholl are fast working, non-linear cycle diminishing polishes. If you're working outside of climate control, Scholl is worth it.

-

For forced-rotation DA, I would go coarse closed-cell foam for the heavy cut: Scholl White Spider or CarPro Flash pads. Then closed-cell medium foam for polishing (Scholl Orange, Lake Country Tangerine Hydro-Tech, or CG's Hex-Logic White.)... You might be able to get away with just these two types. Scholl S2 Shock 2 Cut for extreme compounding, Scholl S20 Black for 1-Stepping, and Scholl S40 for paints that don't want to finish out would probably be my pick for such a setup at this moment... It's worth learning Scholl for DA's. Throw a finishing pad in there (Meg's Black DA disc for S20 Black, or Scholl NEO Honey Spider for S40) if you're still struggling to finish down.

-

8-9mm Free-Rotation DA, I would go microfiber for heavy cut (Meguiar's, Lake Country, Buff & Shine...) providing the paint is fully cured; microfiber 'cutting' for flat areas (Thin, hard interface), and microfiber 'finishing' for contours (Thicker, soft interface.)... Heavy cutting foam for 1-stepping or fresh paint (Scholl White Spider.), and a closed-cell finishing pad (LC HT Crimson, Scholl NEO Honey Spider.). Again, there are gaps, but those can be addressed in the future.

Regarding polishes, I'd go Meguiar's Mirror Glaze #101, #110, or #105 (In order of preference from most to least) for heavy compounding, Scholl S20 Black for 1-stepping, and a P3000 grade fine polish (Scholl S30+ or Rupes Keramik Gloss would be my picks.) for finishing with this tool. Meg's is non-diminishing, so will require a different technique than Scholl or Rupes (Rapid diminishing.).

-

Long-Throw free-rotation DA is a little trickier... Still getting to grips with this system. Microfiber if you want monster cut on cured paint (Rupes or Buff & Shine Uro-Fiber). Coarse open-cell Blue foam for smooth running and fresh paints (Rupes or Buff & Shine Uro-Tec.). Fine Yellow open-cell for removing compounding haze and finishing on most paints (Rupes or Buff & Shine Uro-Tec.)... Scholl Navy Spider or Maroon Uro-Tec for 1-stepping... Rupes White foam for finishing on the trickiest paints. These are just initial impressions; far from my final recommendation for this system...

Meguiar's non-diminishing compounds as above with microfiber. Scholl compounds if heavy cutting on foam. S20 Black for 1-stepping. Rupes Keramik on yellow foam. Scholl S40 on Rupes White... Again, far from final recommendations; just some things working well for me so far.

*Disclaimer:* Given the massive array of variables of this application, these are some rough guesses based upon my experience at some combinations that might fit your particular situation. They are not my universal recommendations, nor are they necessarily going to be the best for every vehicle or situation you encounter... My attempt was to put together a streamlined package, geared for high-volume work on mostly heavier defects, with as much versatility and durability as possible. Mostly, I want you to have enough money to buy as much consumables as possible. If anyone else asks me what my personal choices for products for their application are, I could very well say something different. This is for the OP's unique situation... If you start another thread once you've narrowed down your machine choice, you should also be able to get some more help from other members on pad and polish choices...

With every one of these packages, you'll want to buy as many of each type of pad as you can afford. Working clean, cleaning your pads as best you can on the go with compressed air, a brush, or a towel, and then switching them out to fresh ones when they get terminally loaded (Typically after every panel or two; depends on the situation.) is the key to getting good results. You'll also need some good microfiber towels for wiping off the polish residue, without inducing more marring, and learn how to care for them.

I would also strongly recommend watching YouTube videos, and doing some reading on the subject of technique with the type of tool, and products you intend to use... DaveKG, Kevin Brown, Jason Rose, Jason Kilmer, Russell @ Reflectology (For Scholl), and Ammo (Larry Kosilla) are all excellent, skilled names in the industry to look for when you're perusing forums or YouTube...

Hopefully this helps...

- Steampunk

P.S. Regarding different pad face designs, yes, some actually can make quite a big difference... Either in cooling or swarf management... Check out my NEO Honey Spider pad review for an explanation of the Scholl Spider Pad concept: https://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=411082. Waffle pads allow air circulation at the expense of maximum surface area for the abrasives.


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## PitchPerfect (Feb 15, 2019)

Steampunk, you sir are a top top guy! I genuinely can not thank you enough for your help!

I am hoping that the thanks button that is continually eluding me is the button in between “quote” and the paper with the quill on? Or perhaps because I’m a new member i am yet to earn thanks privileges?

I will go and have a look at the names you mentioned. Your plethora of knowledge never ceases to amaze me! 

I’m sensing from your posts that product is far more important than machinery? Just so I know where the bulk of my initial investments should lay. 

Once again thank you, your time and expertise are very much appreciated!


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## lowejackson (Feb 23, 2006)

PitchPerfect, I am too a rotary user. It has been a few years since I last used the 3M polishes and so they might have changed. However, they did obviously work but compared to more modern products they were very heavy in polishing oils which were not easy to fully remove and required high speed levels to work which led to the paint being over heated. 

Cannot remember the exact programme but one of the first Optimum ******* Podcasts had Dr Ghodoussi talking about the effects on paint when it is heated by polishing and why this is not good for paint. When subject to localised heat the paint swells and the polishing starts to sheer the paint rather than removing it is a linear way. The paint can take quite a while to recover and so the person polishing thinks they are perfected the paint but a few weeks later the marks reappear

Dr Ghodoussi worked in creating clear coats and still does some consultancy in the development of paint so he is worth taking notice of his comments.

As much as I think the 3M polishes are a bit old fashioned I do love their pads. I have tried various others and they all did a good job but the soft 3M pads are IMO fantastic on a rotary.


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## Sharpyyyyy (Sep 26, 2015)

I'm a bodyshop tech at a refurbishment centre, we knock out roughly 60-70 cars a day (24 hour nightshift ) and both shifts share Milwaukee buffers, can't knock them at all they just keep going.


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## Steampunk (Aug 11, 2011)

PitchPerfect said:


> Steampunk, you sir are a top top guy! I genuinely can not thank you enough for your help!
> 
> I am hoping that the thanks button that is continually eluding me is the button in between "quote" and the paper with the quill on? Or perhaps because I'm a new member i am yet to earn thanks privileges?
> 
> ...


I'm just happy to be able to help. 

The thanks button is to the right of the quill pen, and has a big yellow thumbs-up. I don't believe there is any limit on how many posts you have to have before you can use it... Just that you have to have X-number of posts before you can private message someone; that's the only limitation I'm aware of.

Yes, products are the biggest chunk of the equation... A nicer machine is a luxury, mostly, but is something that one quickly earns the right to being a necessity if it is in your hands ever single day.

I started out with a Meguiar's G110 V2 (A $200, 8mm throw free-rotation DA. I think I got it on sale for a bit less.), and about three years ago I upgraded to a Festool Rotex (~$500 dual-mode, forced-rotation DA.), when I started noticing signs of vibration related injury (Towards the end, my hands wouldn't stop shaking for hours after using the G110.)... What the more expensive machine netted me was lighter weight, _much_ less vibration, better build quality (Can handle harder work, should last more hours, has a better warranty, and the tolerances on some important things like backing plate runout are MUCH better.), and more speed (I can now break down diminishing polishes almost twice as quickly... Not quite, but almost. My set times are significantly shorter.)... However, the ultimate quality of the final finish, and the actual level of correction I am able to achieve is almost identical to before in most cases. I did some great work with that entry-level machine...

It really comes down to the pads and polishes/compounds you are using. They need to be well matched to the machine, to your style of working, and to the vehicle at hand. Poorly matched products can make the best machine in the world vibrate, and be difficult to control, whilst simultaneously unable to achieve the level of cut or finish that it should be capable of. Conversely, optimizing your pad/product combinations with a low-powered, entry-level tool can do wonders for smoothing it out, and help you to out-cut/out-finish someone with a poorly optimized professional-grade tool packing a lot more power.

Some of those pads/product combos aren't cheap... 5-6" White Spider Sandwich Pads, for example, are 14-18 quid _each_ at full UK retail price. However, they run smoother, are more durable, better resist collapsing under high pressure, can be washed and put back into service faster, and have a broader spread of cut/finishing capability than any other foam cutting pad I've encountered by a massive margin. That ultimately saves you a lot of time, and number of pads in the long-run. Same way with polishes... The good stuff pays off.

Hope this helps...

- Steampunk


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## PitchPerfect (Feb 15, 2019)

So steampunk I have done a lot of research and have come to the conclusion I’m not going to develop my skills by sticking within the comfort zone of rotational polishers.

So... I like what I’ve read about the vertool forced DA.
I like the look of the liquid elements 10mm (t3000v2)
I also like the look of the shine mate DA 21mm

So which would you say is my safest option? I will be pairing whichever with a 3” DA for the tighter areas... although I haven’t researched them yet haha!


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## Steampunk (Aug 11, 2011)

PitchPerfect said:


> So steampunk I have done a lot of research and have come to the conclusion I'm not going to develop my skills by sticking within the comfort zone of rotational polishers.
> 
> So... I like what I've read about the vertool forced DA.
> I like the look of the liquid elements 10mm (t3000v2)
> ...


Good choices. Which is best kind of depends on the sizes and shapes of the vehicles you work on, and how much speed matters to you.

The Shinemate 21 is the fastest, then the Vertool forced in the middle, then the Liquid Elements T3000 V2 is the slowest. By slowest, we're talking it will take twice the time to break down polishes as the Shinemate.

However, the Shinemate is going to be the most awkward, and the least useful on smaller cars with more complex panels... On something like a MINI Cooper Hatchback, you might only be able to use it effectively on ~50% of the surface area of the car (~30% if it has a sunroof.). On a Toyota Hilux, you might be able to use it on 80% of the vehicle. It will also fit a lower-pressure style of working, and will be more useful whole panels of similar defects versus focusing in on a single scratch, for example.

The Vertool will be much less awkward on those tighter, more complex, curvier panels. However, if you are unlucky enough to encounter the softest paint known to man (Depending on the sorts of cars you mostly see, you may never encounter such a paint, or you may encounter a handful a year.) it's going to be the trickiest to get to finish down utterly flawlessly (Especially using bodyshop safe products.) of the three, and will also require a little more of the type of thoughtfulness around body lines that you would pay attention to with a rotary. It will fit a higher-pressure style of working, and if you have a localized scratch, you can tilt the pad and concentrate your work a bit more with this style of machine.

The T3000 V2 will be the cheapest, as you actually don't need to get a 3" DA with it; just a 3" accessory backing plate... It's the slowest, but the safest tool in regards to being forgiving of carelessness that would rapidly result in clearcoat burn-through on more powerful tools... It will fit into tighter areas better than the Shinemate, and finish more easily on an unnaturally soft paint than the Vertool, but on large vehicles will be much slower and more tedious to use than either.

So to summarize, the Shinemate is the king of the three for big areas on big vehicles. The Liquid Elements is the cheapest and most versatile if you are working on more complex sections of smaller cars, and you aren't under super high pressure with turnaround speed. The Vertool will do both big and small vehicles, and is a good compromise between the two in speed, but it comes with a little extra challenge.

Hope this helps...

- Steampunk


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## suds (Apr 27, 2012)

Pitch, just to confuse things a little - for a regular/pro user I would say you should consider carefully, machines which offer lowest vibration and possibly lower weight. As pointed out by Steampunk, vibration can result in you acquiring very debilitating conditions later in life (either to the point you have to give up work at an early age or it just adversely affecting your well earned retirement- think in terms of being unable to grip objects, pain, unable to use a lawnmower/hedge trimmer!). Steampunk pointed out that using the correct combos will make for greater gains but the machine will still be vibrating- I might be wrong but I see it as the correct combo sees the unit performing at optimum, wrong combo increases problems. But even if all units were set up for optimum usage, the varying machines are still vibrating to a lesser or greater degree.


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## PitchPerfect (Feb 15, 2019)

That’s fantastic thank you! So I think I’m going to go for the middle ground and pick the vertool, what would be best to accompany it? A 3” da? Also would the vertool work well with the spider sandwich pads you mentioned? 

I can’t believe how deep rabbit hole goes!!

And thankyou suds! Is there a way I can find the vibration of a unit?


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## suds (Apr 27, 2012)

Sorry but I'm unaware if any manufacturer publishes the vibration level but Steampunk would have a better idea. Also if you post up your location under your username local members may make an offer for you to take your car round for a trial with their machines. I'm trying to remember which recent thread discussed the differences between short, long-throw and forced rotation machines but I'm certain a quick phone call to one of the forum supporters/suppliers would resolve that question.


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## Steampunk (Aug 11, 2011)

No problem... Happy to help.  

With the Vertool, a 3" long-stroke (Typically 12mm) DA would be a good pairing for tighter areas. 

The Vertool will work well with the pads and polishes I suggested. 

This is a very, very deep rabbit hole.  

If you're not working on much soft paint at all, you could step up from S40 to something like S30+ or Rupes Keramik, etc. That would be a little more versatile for you. 

Alas, the Chinese manufacturers do not list vibration ratings for their tools. They are not built to the same tolerances as the better companies, and do tend to vibrate more... Festool, Flex, and Makita all list vibration in m/s for their tools. Rupes probably has the figures on hand if you e-mail them. The Vertool is a good choice in the short-term, but long-term (As Suds says), stepping up to something nicer when you can as you planned should still be on the books. 

Hope this helps...

- Steampunk


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## PitchPerfect (Feb 15, 2019)

Right so I have just purchased a vertool 3” 12mm polisher and the vertool forced drive.

So I am now looking at pads and products, the white spider sandwich pads are available in both sizes, and then a few bottles of Scholl s30 and s40 to get started? Plus I’m assuming some kind of softer finishing pad?


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## PitchPerfect (Feb 15, 2019)

Or are there higher tier options availaae that are compatible with my initial choices?


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## Steampunk (Aug 11, 2011)

PitchPerfect said:


> Right so I have just purchased a vertool 3" 12mm polisher and the vertool forced drive.
> 
> So I am now looking at pads and products, the white spider sandwich pads are available in both sizes, and then a few bottles of Scholl s30 and s40 to get started? Plus I'm assuming some kind of softer finishing pad?


Here's some pads and products:

*Cutting -* Scholl Concepts White Spider Sandwich or CarPro Flash (For Shinemate & Vertool compatible)

*Polishing -* Scholl Orange Foam (Vertool Only), Lake Country Hydro-Tech 7/8" Thick Tangerine (Vertool Only), CG's Hex Logic White (Vertool Only), Rupes Yellow Foam (Shinemate Only), or Buff & Shine Uro-Tec Yellow (Shinemate Only.)

*Finishing -* Scholl NEO Honey Spider (Vertool), Meguiar's DA Black Foam Finishing Disc (Vertool), Rupes White Foam (Shinemate Only), or Buff & Shine Uro-Tec White (Shinemate Only.). Somewhat optional.

*Note: The reason I recommend different pads for different machines is due to vibration.

Pick one of the options in each category suitable for each tool, and purchase as many as you can afford in your budget.

-

*Compound - *Scholl S2 Shock 2 Cut

*Medium Polish - *Scholl S20 Black

*Finishing Polish -* Scholl S40 (If one sees the need for usage on very soft paints, and black plastic trim pillars, but offers very little cut on normal paints.) or Scholl S30+, or Rupes Keramik (These two have a little more cut than S40, which make them more versatile, though S40 could save your bacon in some extreme cases.). Pick one you think you think you'll use the most.

Buy 1-liter of compound, medium polish, and finishing polish to start.

Hope this helps... :thumb:

- Steampunk


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## PitchPerfect (Feb 15, 2019)

So if I were to just go for a full Scholl set up that would be more optimal as their products are designed to be complimentary to one another? One would assume anyway, but you know what they say about assumption!


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## lowejackson (Feb 23, 2006)

Sharpyyyyy said:


> I'm a bodyshop tech at a refurbishment centre, we knock out roughly 60-70 cars a day (24 hour nightshift ) and both shifts share Milwaukee buffers, can't knock them at all they just keep going.


You should write more about doing volume work, I for one would be interested. Reading about someone spending 40 hours on the paintwork is interesting but so would reading about someone who spends 30 minutes


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## PitchPerfect (Feb 15, 2019)

lowejackson said:


> You should write more about doing volume work, I for one would be interested. Reading about someone spending 40 hours on the paintwork is interesting but so would reading about someone who spends 30 minutes


I'm from a bodyshop background too, I actually find it odd that people worry so much about rotational polishers, it's all I know and what I use on fresh soft paint. Although I guess that being able to apply paint and understanding it's application makes knowing how far to go with the polisher a little easier?


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## lowejackson (Feb 23, 2006)

PitchPerfect said:


> I'm from a bodyshop background too, I actually find it odd that people worry so much about rotational polishers, it's all I know and what I use on fresh soft paint. Although I guess that being able to apply paint and understanding it's application makes knowing how far to go with the polisher a little easier?


Not sure why the rotary has gotten such a reputation. Maybe it is because a DA is so easy to learn with whereas a rotary takes quite a while to get good results. One day I will try one of those fancy long throw machines and see for myself how effective they are.

Bodyshops and other types of volume work interests me as my background is in manufacturing and process improvement and process improvement helps pay my mortgage


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## Steampunk (Aug 11, 2011)

PitchPerfect said:


> So if I were to just go for a full Scholl set up that would be more optimal as their products are designed to be complimentary to one another? One would assume anyway, but you know what they say about assumption!


Full Scholl setup regarding doing all three polishes, and all three pad types from Scholl? It's not a bad idea at all, no, as their polishes and pads do work very well together...

However, there are other manufacturers making pads that run ideally with Scholl polishes, and other manufacturer's polishes that run ideally with Scholl pads... I've recommended combinations I've tried, and know to work. Also, when it comes to your new 3" long-throw, very few of Scholl's pads have been optimized for these machines yet, and the 90mm Scholl Orange polishing pad (As well as others cut in this style.) vibrated and kicked back horribly on this style of tool in my experience. Hence, why I recommended different brands of finishing/polishing pads than Scholl.

I listed a variety of options, as regarding price and availability I wanted to make sure you could easily find and affordably source what you needed.

Hope this helps...

- Steampunk


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## Bikeracer (Jan 16, 2015)

County Detailing Supplies are doing Scholl s3,s17 and s40 as a bundle at the moment at about 20% off.
I've just ordered a bundle of the 250gm size but the 1kg size is a better buy if you have the work to justify the quantity

Allan.


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## PitchPerfect (Feb 15, 2019)

So I have gone for; white spider, orange foam and now honey paired with s2, s20 and s30+.

If I were to be working away from air, would the 3” 12mm work well enough as a DA for use with a trizact/p200 disks for a heavier scratch?

Also I’m curious about your go to waxes/glazes and application pads, I’m keen to try and move more towards exterior detailing, it seems rather therapeutic. I feel I may regret saying that however ha!!


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## Steampunk (Aug 11, 2011)

PitchPerfect said:


> So I have gone for; white spider, orange foam and now honey paired with s2, s20 and s30+.
> 
> If I were to be working away from air, would the 3" 12mm work well enough as a DA for use with a trizact/p200 disks for a heavier scratch?
> 
> Also I'm curious about your go to waxes/glazes and application pads, I'm keen to try and move more towards exterior detailing, it seems rather therapeutic. I feel I may regret saying that however ha!!


Great setup! :thumb:

With reservation, I would say yes... With an interface pad, the Shinemate 3", 12mm throw machine should be usable. However, avoiding pigtails and edge gouging on long-throw DA's (Especially small diameter ones.) requires some practice, and a deft touch.

Waxes, glazes, applicators, microfibers, etc is a whole new kettle of fish... Lol

There are others on this forum who have tried more waxes/sealants, and certainly more glazes than me... Paintwork correction is my favorite niche. So if you want to start a thread inquiring on waxes in the 'Wax, Sealants, and Paint Protection' section of the forum regarding waxes, and on glazes in the 'Polish/Cleaners/Compounds/Glazes' section, I think you'll get some good and interesting advice from more members.

However, for waxes, I have a few companies I like. Dodo-Juice, Black Magic Detail, Bouncer's, and Bilt-Hamber have all served me well; all British companies, interestingly... If you need a bodyshop safe product, Optimum Car Wax is a spray wax that is silicone free, and safe to use on fresh paint. For sealants, I like CarPro (Reload and Hydro2), Dodo-Juice Supernatural Acrylic Spritz, and Blackfire Paint Sealant.

Here are some wax reviews I've posted recently:

https://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=410934

https://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=411445

Regarding applicators, I like the Dodo-Juice finger-mitten applicators (Particularly for the smaller sample pots.), though am actually in the market for a nice, ergonomic applicator as well for the bigger pots...

For towels, I'm a huge fan of Microfiber Madness (German brand; like Scholl pads they are spendy, but the best quality money can buy and do pay off in the long run.), but if you do any kind of volume I fear that you'll probably need to check out some more affordable options... At least to start with. Again, some other UK members might be able to make some good suggestions.

If you're correcting the paintwork abrasively with your new Scholl polishes, and doing a good job with refining, glazes and paintwork cleaners are something of a redundant step. However, what they are nice for, is if the client doesn't want to spend the money - or you don't have the time, on a personal vehicle - to do a full correction. Then, they are a nice way to quickly enhance the paint, and get it clean and shiny for your wax or sealant. For waxes, I used to enjoy the Dodo-Juice Limes (Lime Prime, which is mildly abrasive, or Lime Prime Lite, which isn't. Both traditional, oily cleaner-glazes. Neither are bodyshop safe.). For SN AS, I find CarLack Complete (Technically not a glaze; just an AIO/paintwork cleaner.) to pair well, and Blackfire Paintwork Cleaner for Blackfire Paint Sealant... For the nano products like Reload or Hydro2, though, these need bare paint. Just nick some panel wipe from the shop to remove the polishing oils after Scholl, and apply your wax or sealant straight to bare paint, after correction. It's a lovely, pure result this way, and will also net you the maximum durability.

I'm assuming you're also already using clay for decontamination? If not, check out the Bilt-Hamber Auto-Clays... Best around.

Detailing can be quite therapeutic; at least, I find it so... Especially once you get some products and methods that you like to use. 

Any other questions, please feel free to ask... :thumb:

Hope this helps.

- Steampunk


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## PitchPerfect (Feb 15, 2019)

Thank you Steampunk I shall have a look at the products you’ve mentioned and read up some reviews!!


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