# Possible new car



## Darlofan (Nov 24, 2010)

So as happens on here a lot I read something and it starts to cost me money!
Been toying with the idea/trying to be sensible of replacing my 163k miles Insignia estate for a while now. As I tow a caravan and drive 25k miles a year with work i'd always seemed to come back to the Ford Kuga!! Tow well and still have reasonable mpg. Reading the Octavia thread of 20vkarlos the other day and SteveW mentions a Seat Leon estate so I stupidly have a look on Auto trader!! I now find myself off tomorrow to look at a 65plate Seat Leon 2.0 TDI 184 FR 5dr DSG not had an auto before so not too sure, research shows its decent at towing, towing weight I think is comparable to my Insignia but lower than a Kuga. Planning on a bigger van in future so will have to check that out. Obviously the Leon is the middle aged me saying go for it, the Kuga is sensible me saying it'll be more practical. 
Leon though seem to get more toys for your money. 
Anyone wants to tell me what to look for when viewing it or want to talk me out of it go for it:thumb:


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## suds (Apr 27, 2012)

Mile munching comfortable reliable tow car = Volvo :thumb:


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## Lexus-is250 (Feb 4, 2017)

Mazda 6 sport nav auto estate. Love mine and very good tow cars apparently. 

Sent from my SM-A505FN using Tapatalk


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## TakDetails (Apr 25, 2020)

I doubt you’d be disappointed with a Leon even in DSG even though some can’t gel with the box. 

Could a SEAT Ateca tick your boxes? 
Practical
Towing capable
Comes with a lot standard (Xcellence or FR are good starting points)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Darlofan (Nov 24, 2010)

TakDetails said:


> I doubt you'd be disappointed with a Leon even in DSG even though some can't gel with the box.
> 
> Could a SEAT Ateca tick your boxes?
> Practical
> ...


Ateca are out of budget unfortunately. I'm looking at about 10k at moment, with miles I do I need a lower milage one too.


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## Ctreanor13 (May 1, 2019)

Albeit not the estate, my brother has just bought a 17 plate Leon FR DSG (184bhp) and it's an incredibly nice car to drive and I think I will have to get a DSG for my next car. Not only is it so easy to drive, the speed at which it changes gear when you want to give it the beans is addicting


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## Bristle Hound (May 31, 2009)

@Darlofan - Good luck on the viewing buddy. Keep us all updated :thumb:


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## Caledoniandream (Oct 9, 2009)

You cannot go wrong with a 2 ltr Kuga, comfortable, cheap part and a great car to tow with.


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## SteveTDCi (Feb 8, 2006)

I wouldn’t want to tow with any dsg car, they are bad enough without any weight on the back, trying to move one on a slope is bad enough. Stick with a manual kuga or if you want auto try a freelander


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## luapkram (Aug 20, 2015)

Darlofan said:


> Anyone wants to tell me what to look for when viewing it :


Good choice, although I have a Kuga for towing, I do like a Leon.

I would make sure the coolant in expansion tank is Pink/Purple and has no deposits, and definitely not Brown. Also when warm make sure heat is similar at near side and offside dash vents. Brown coolant and poor heat means coolant flush and heater matrix replacement. Flush procedure is a right pain (done a few albeit on VW) 
Timing Belt 5 years or 140k and I would change water pump as it has an electric part that seizes over impeller.
DSG change at 40k.

That is all the bad bits I would say as generally a Very good car. Hopefully you enjoy testing car and DSG is a great choice 

Mark

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## Darlofan (Nov 24, 2010)

SteveTDCi said:


> I wouldn't want to tow with any dsg car, they are bad enough without any weight on the back, trying to move one on a slope is bad enough. Stick with a manual kuga or if you want auto try a freelander


Are they that bad? Reading caravan forums seems to be most tow with autos, few dsg posts seem happy with theirs as well.


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## c87reed (Dec 9, 2015)

I've recently bought a Golf with the 2.0TDI and DSG. I must say I was against getting a DSG beforehand as I'd read all sorts of rubbish that people post and I nearly believed it. I do like the way it drives and have had no issues with controlling or manoeuvring mine.

One thing to bear in mind is how the handbrake is set. If you turn the 'auto hold' off beside the handbrake it will allow you to 'creep' forwards of backwards as you come off the brake (without touching the throttle). Whereas if it is set to 'on', you have the situation where it will hold until you press the throttle. Understandably this would make it difficult as it leaves the user jumping between the throttle and brake to control the car when making minor movements. For anyone that can't drive these, it is plainly down to user error or not understanding how the system operates. Leave the 'auto hold' switched off.


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## Darlofan (Nov 24, 2010)

c87reed said:


> I've recently bought a Golf with the 2.0TDI and DSG. I must say I was against getting a DSG beforehand as I'd read all sorts of rubbish that people post and I nearly believed it. I do like the way it drives and have had no issues with controlling or manoeuvring mine.
> 
> One thing to bear in mind is how the handbrake is set. If you turn the 'auto hold' off beside the handbrake it will allow you to 'creep' forwards of backwards as you come off the brake (without touching the throttle). Whereas if it is set to 'on', you have the situation where it will hold until you press the throttle. Understandably this would make it difficult as it leaves the user jumping between the throttle and brake to control the car when making minor movements. For anyone that can't drive these, it is plainly down to user error or not understanding how the system operates. Leave the 'auto hold' switched off.


I have electric handbrake on my Insignia and admit it took some getting used to. But now love it, especially when towing the van, especially on hill starts.

Leon I'm looking at has flappy paddles too, have to say though don't really know that much about them or how useful/useless they could be.


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## c87reed (Dec 9, 2015)

Darlofan said:


> I have electric handbrake on my Insignia and admit it took some getting used to. But now love it, especially when towing the van, especially on hill starts.
> 
> Leon I'm looking at has flappy paddles too, have to say though don't really know that much about them or how useful/useless they could be.


Mine has the paddles too but in truth I have tried them out but don't really tend to use them very much at all. The paddles don't replicate the feeling of a manual car for me and so most of the time I just let the box decide. One use they do have though is if driving in auto, you can tap the left paddle to knock it down a gear e.g if going for an overtake.


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## SteveTDCi (Feb 8, 2006)

Darlofan said:


> Are they that bad? Reading caravan forums seems to be most tow with autos, few dsg posts seem happy with theirs as well.


Go and find a hill and try a hill start, I've owned one A3tdi and I wanted shot after 2 weeks it was horrible, I've also driven a few - probably 50+ and hated them all, some where worse than others. You will also notice a weight difference between the two, if it's a couple of years old chick the history for shock absorbers, for some reason vow group cars eat them.


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## andy665 (Nov 1, 2005)

c87reed said:


> I've recently bought a Golf with the 2.0TDI and DSG. I must say I was against getting a DSG beforehand as I'd read all sorts of rubbish that people post and I nearly believed it. I do like the way it drives and have had no issues with controlling or manoeuvring mine.
> 
> One thing to bear in mind is how the handbrake is set. If you turn the 'auto hold' off beside the handbrake it will allow you to 'creep' forwards of backwards as you come off the brake (without touching the throttle). Whereas if it is set to 'on', you have the situation where it will hold until you press the throttle. Understandably this would make it difficult as it leaves the user jumping between the throttle and brake to control the car when making minor movements. For anyone that can't drive these, it is plainly down to user error or not understanding how the system operates. Leave the 'auto hold' switched off.


On our second DSG equipped car with electric handbrake. Auto Hold is switched on and never had any issues whatsoever when manoeuvring - I'd questionsomrones driving ability if they were struggling with it


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## SteveW (Feb 21, 2006)

Darlofan, can I first apologise for starting this off :lol: 

I must admit I really do love my FR 184 ST, it feels more like a hot hatch than an estate when you drive it. But it has the practicality that I wanted from a car too.

Mine is the manual so I can't really help much with the DSG box as I've had no experience of it.

One thing to think of when looking at 5 year old ones, is whether the cam belt and water pump has been changed. Seat recommend every 5 years (or 120,000 miles I think). Mine is 5 years old in January so although it's only done 61,000 miles I'm booking mine in to be done. If you're getting to done by Seat it'll cost £588 - so if the one you're looking at will need that done it might be a "bargaining tool" to get them to move a bit on the price?

As I'm typing I notice that most of what I'm posting has already been mentioned!

luapkram mentioned the coolant and heater matrix.

From what I've read over on seatcupra.net (brilliant resource for all things Seat), the silica gel bag that is in the coolant header tank can split and cause issues when the silica particles block up the heater matrix. As luapkram mentioned, a good test to check all is OK is to run the heater and make sure all vents blow out hot air at the same temperature. if one side is cooler than the other, that points to there being an issue.

It can cost a lot of money to pay a garage to change the heater matrix, but there are guides on seatcupra.net where people have changed the matrix without removing the dash and it looks _[reasonably_ straightforward to the averagely competent home mechanic if you've got plenty of time to do it.

The only other common(ish) thing I've read is that the shocks can get a bit "knocky", but I guess that would become apparent with a test drive.

It's a VAG car so generally they're pretty good. Especially if you've been used to a Vauxhall for 163k miles  (I had a Mk3 cavalier for 5 years and a Vectra B 2.2 Estate for over 8 years, so I know Vauxhall cars have their "niggles"  ).

Are you looking at a hatchback or estate? I'm biased obviously, but I do love my estate, sorry _Sport Touring_ :lol:


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## andy665 (Nov 1, 2005)

I found my Cupra ST 4Drive to be very good as an estate car and a very good all-rounder, only thing that it lacked (for me) was any form of driving fun - it was predictable and practical and actually enjoy driving the much less powerful Kodiaq an awful lot more


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## Del-GTi (Mar 31, 2007)

My opinion of DSG is that it’s a bit....meh! Once the car is up to speed it’s fine - smooth, seemless changes that are barely noticeable. But crawling through traffic and slowly coasting up to roundabouts etc it’s pretty poor. It’s instantly shifts to 2nd when pulling away (unless you do an F1 start) and once it’s in 2nd it likes to ‘ride the clutch’ at least that’s how it feels to me. So in traffic, especially on inclines it constantly slips the clutch until it realises you want to accelerate (or you push the pedal down further). Similarly rolling up to a roundabout and spotting a gap - unless you really push the pedal down, what goes from decent gap with lots of room, soon becomes a ‘come on move car’ followed by mashing of the accelerator and inside wheel spinning as you pull out. 

I know there are reasons why it does this, trying to keep a smooth drivetrain and reduce stresses etc but it just feels a bit laggy.

Another thing it does it drop from 7th to 6th at the mere hint of an incline. Probably doesn’t help that it’s only a 1.6 but rather than use the torque available given that it’s on-boost, it drops a cog. My friend’s Toureg does the same from 8th to 7th and it’s a 3.0 v6 tdi.


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## SteveW (Feb 21, 2006)

andy665 said:


> I found my Cupra ST 4Drive to be very good as an estate car and a very good all-rounder, only thing that it lacked (for me) was any form of driving fun - it was predictable and practical and actually enjoy driving the much less powerful Kodiaq an awful lot more


It's always interesting hearing others views Andy, I find mine quite a lot of fun to chuck round on a twisty A road.

It's the first VAG car I've owned so I don't know what they're all like with regards to driver feedback really, but I do ejoy driving the Leon. I've come to it from a Mk3 Mondeo ST though, which despite its size was a great handler around the twisties as well as being a really comfortable mile muncher.

Prior to that I had two Vauxhalls for 13 plus years and they offered zero in terms of feedback, the Vectra being far worse than the Cavalier. I feit I just had to kind of trust the car, because I had no real idea of what it was doing or going to do if that makes sense?

I've never owned anything as powerful as a Cupra though. this Leon is the most powerful car I've owned, but I have had some great handling 1980s XRs in the past


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## sshooie (May 15, 2007)

Not had a caravan for years now but I always based my towcars on the weight of the van.

I towed with a couple of Vectra estates and they were very good (both 150bhp) the second being an auto and I'd highly recommend the auto route tbf.

You'll love the DSG, and the 184 horses should make light work of the van.


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## andy665 (Nov 1, 2005)

SteveW said:


> It's always interesting hearing others views Andy, I find mine quite a lot of fun to chuck round on a twisty A road.
> 
> It's the first VAG car I've owned so I don't know what they're all like with regards to driver feedback really, but I do ejoy driving the Leon. I've come to it from a Mk3 Mondeo ST though, which despite its size was a great handler around the twisties as well as being a really comfortable mile muncher.
> 
> ...


I always feel guilty about saying that I found the Cupra a bit dull, I don't think it helped going to it from a manual M135i which was often a handful but always a lot of fun, the Cupra with its DSG and Haldex 4wd was very quick across country (probably quicker than the M135i) but I always felt like it was the car doing the work rather than me. It was practical, well built, cheap to maintain, well equipped but I just did not bond with it at all - got rid 4 months before I was due to. replaced with a 1.5 Skoda Kodiaq that I absolutely love and will almost certainly be replaced with another


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## SteveW (Feb 21, 2006)

andy665 said:


> I always feel guilty about saying that I found the Cupra a bit dull, I don't think it helped going to it from a manual M135i which was often a handful but always a lot of fun, the Cupra with its DSG and Haldex 4wd was very quick across country (probably quicker than the M135i) but I always felt like it was the car doing the work rather than me. It was practical, well built, cheap to maintain, well equipped but I just did not bond with it at all - got rid 4 months before I was due to. replaced with a 1.5 Skoda Kodiaq that I absolutely love and will almost certainly be replaced with another


I see where you're coming from now I think. I would imagine the BMW is much more fun as a "driver's" car.

I guess the only comparison I have is from when I did a track day at PalmerSport in the early 2010s and drove stuff like a 911, a supercharged Jag XKR etc - but the most fun I had all day was in the Caterham. Massively down on power compared to the others, but so much fun from a driver's perspective in my opinion.


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## Darlofan (Nov 24, 2010)

Cheers for all the replies guys. Viewing it today didn't go ahead, wife had concerns over Covid and Xmas which let's face it, if I so much as coughed over next 2 days I would not hear the end of it!!
Dealer was ok about it and shutting at 1 anyway so probably glad of the early dart. It also gives me a few days thinking/research time, they reopen Sunday. Can also get mine cleaned for part ex valuation(not that it will make much difference I think.)


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## Rakti (Nov 11, 2019)

In that case, have you thought about the car shown in post #39 of 20VKarlos's Octavia thread, an Audi A4 Avant. Probably not as dynamic as the Leon, but could be a contender if you value comfort and refinement. As a 2.0TD, it's available in 150PS or 190PS guise.


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## SteveTDCi (Feb 8, 2006)

The problem with the A4 is the same issues that effect the Leon apply.


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## Nozza (Mar 1, 2006)

I've got a 20 Plate Leon ST FR, with the DSG box, petrol. It's not a bad car, practical, the DSG box takes a little while to get used to, and doesn't change up sometimes straight away which can be a bit annoying, but I'm happy with it. Just wish I hadn't got it in black, a sod to keep clean!


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## Darlofan (Nov 24, 2010)

Nozza said:


> I've got a 20 Plate Leon ST FR, with the DSG box, petrol. It's not a bad car, practical, the DSG box takes a little while to get used to, and doesn't change up sometimes straight away which can be a bit annoying, but I'm happy with it. Just wish I hadn't got it in black, a sod to keep clean!


Current car is black and I've said never again but keep seeing nice ones!!


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## Bristle Hound (May 31, 2009)

With you talking about A4's @Darlofan

Don't know whether you remember but last year we had a 143 bhp B8 Audi A4 Avant 2.0 TDI S-Line with a Multitronic GB
https://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=414619

This was specifically bought for towing our old 2 berth Swift 480 which for a 2 berth was / is quite heavy at 1441kg MTPLM

The A4 towed the Swift quite admirably TBH & I never had a problem towing with it - always achieved between 25-27mpg towing, except one journey that was in a strong headwind all the way & then it went down to 22mpg as I recall

The boot on the Avant was bigger than my current X3
Only problem I ever had with towing was setting off on a steep incline on a gravel track. Had a bit of a traction issue with the A4 being FWD but nothing major

I wouldn't go for the multitronic GB TBH. The GB's can be quite fragile, altho' I didn't have any probs with mine but read plenty of very expensive horror stories. & boy is it a noisy GB

Go for the DSG version a much safer bet. Don't know why Audi fitted the noisy, fragile multitronic GB's to their cars when they have great DSG ones

Auto GB's for towing are the only way to go IMHO


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## Darlofan (Nov 24, 2010)

Well, I spent the last couple of days looking and got list down to 2 Leon's and 2 kugas.
Original Leon I saw, I've had lots of emails with however he's avoiding the service history/cambelt question. He's insistent on me sending photos of mine for part ex valuation even after me saying I'm waiting on service history details so knocked that one on the head. If dealer can't answer a simple question it doesn't fill me with much confidence.
3 left, 1 is 430 mile away so unless extra details are phenomenal then I'll leave it. Other 2 are 60,80mile away but showrooms shut so have to wait for responses to questions emailed.
What I have noticed is all dealers are advertising unaccompanied test drives and also returning the car if not happy guarantees. Not sure about that as I can imagine returning one will be made difficult as possible.


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## SteveTDCi (Feb 8, 2006)

I'd take my chances with the multitronic over the dsg, there are just as many horror stories with the dsg.

I'd go with the heaviest car you can if towing.


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## AndyN01 (Feb 16, 2016)

How about a completely left field idea.

Go for an older, "bomb proof" car with a solid history and - the important bit - pretty much zero depreciation.

Yes, it's probably cost a few £££'s in servicing and the odd bits and fuel but that'll be peanuts compared to the depreciation.

Something like a big BMW or Merc estate will cover 200-300K miles - so your 25K a year won't be an issue - with all the comfort and refinement of what was a high level executive car. Maybe a Volvo or even a Saab?

Just an idea.

Good luck with your search.

Andy.


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## SteveTDCi (Feb 8, 2006)

What Andy said :thumb:


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## muzzer (Feb 13, 2011)

Bristle Hound said:


> With you talking about A4's @Darlofan
> 
> Don't know whether you remember but last year we had a 143 bhp B8 Audi A4 Avant 2.0 TDI S-Line with a Multitronic GB
> https://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=414619
> ...


Sorry, say that again...did you say 1441 for a 2 berth? No wonder ours feels it isnt there then, as its 1350 for a 4 berth.

Anyway, back on topic, i'd go for an SUV purely for the height off the ground of the tow hitch. Its not giing to be in your price range but our 2.0 auto kia sportage is great in that respect and its a proper old fashioned auto


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## Bristle Hound (May 31, 2009)

muzzer said:


> Sorry, say that again...did you say 1441 for a 2 berth? No wonder ours feels it isnt there then, as its 1350 for a 4 berth.


Yup. Triple checked Muzz. Was a very solid van mind

Camino is 1800kg MTPLM


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## Darlofan (Nov 24, 2010)

Bristle Hound said:


> Yup. Triple checked Muzz. Was a very solid van mind
> 
> Camino is 1800kg MTPLM


Am I thinking thus correctly. If towing weight of car is 2100kg then van can be 85%of that(recommended)?


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## SteveW (Feb 21, 2006)

Darlofan said:


> What I have noticed is all dealers are advertising unaccompanied test drives and also returning the car if not happy guarantees. Not sure about that as I can imagine returning one will be made difficult as possible.


I had an unaccompanied test drive when I bought my Leon in June. Myself and Mrs SteveW took it out for a run for around 30-40 minutes, just the two of us.

We did have to give them my driving licence and credit card as "security", but that aside they were happy for us to take as long as we felt we needed!


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## muzzer (Feb 13, 2011)

Darlofan said:


> Am I thinking thus correctly. If towing weight of car is 2100kg then van can be 85%of that(recommended)?


Yes and no.
If you want to you can tow 100% buts generally recommended that new or inexperienced drivers stick to the 85%.
I'm fairly sure it isnt law as such
So our kia weighs approx 2000kg so 85% is 1700 kg. That means without going over the 85% margin, they arent many caravans i cant tow with it


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## muzzer (Feb 13, 2011)

So if you car is 2100 then your 85% margin is 1785


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## Bristle Hound (May 31, 2009)

Darlofan said:


> Am I thinking thus correctly. If towing weight of car is 2100kg then van can be 85%of that(recommended)?


The 85% rule is only an advisory its not law
Plenty of people I know tow around 95%
Unfortunately some people think it about the power of the car that matters and in reality its the weight of the tow car thats more important

I spoke to someone this year who was towing a caravan like ours. His tow car was a diesel Mondeo. He said its alright as he had had the Mondeo mapped to 280bhp
I got the old 'can't even tell its on the back' saying
I put the figures in the site below & he was at 110%! 
Not only is that very dangerous its illegal too

I use this site as a rule of thumb
https://towcar.info/

It allows you to alter loads in the 'van and car to see where you are at


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## muzzer (Feb 13, 2011)

Bristle Hound said:


> The 85% rule is only an advisory its not law
> Plenty of people I know tow around 95%
> Unfortunately some people think it about the power of the car that matters and in reality its the weight of the tow car thats more important
> 
> ...


Or the other one is those who dont understand or care, that there is a speed limit. 
Had a guy pass me on the M3 , nose weight was massively out so the caravan nose was pointing down, car overloaded with kids, bikes etc, and i reckon he must have been doing 85 easily.
No, 60 isnt an advisory you clampitt


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## Bristle Hound (May 31, 2009)

'The 85% Rule

The '85% rule' is not legislated, but a recommendation that states that the weight of the loaded caravan should be no more than 85% of the cars kerbweight. Those who are experienced caravanners may go up to 100% of the cars kerbweight, but no-one should tow a caravan that is heavier than the towing limit of the car.'


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## St Evelyn (Mar 15, 2019)

If you're after clarification around the 85% 'rule' then this link is certainly worth a read - covers all that you need to know.


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## Darlofan (Nov 24, 2010)

AndyN01 said:


> How about a completely left field idea.
> 
> Go for an older, "bomb proof" car with a solid history and - the important bit - pretty much zero depreciation.
> 
> ...


Have had that thought of an older car, especially after seeing threads on here about some. When it comes to it, unless it was a car I knew, friends etc then I would have doubts over it.



SteveW said:


> I had an unaccompanied test drive when I bought my Leon in June. Myself and Mrs SteveW took it out for a run for around 30-40 minutes, just the two of us.
> 
> We did have to give them my driving licence and credit card as "security", but that aside they were happy for us to take as long as we felt we needed!


I like the idea, much better than trundling along with some sales guy sat next to you for 10minutes.



St Evelyn said:


> If you're after clarification around the 85% 'rule' then this link is certainly worth a read - covers all that you need to know.


That was heavy going, it might make more sense in the morning. :lol:


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## AndyN01 (Feb 16, 2016)

Darlofan said:


> Have had that thought of an older car, especially after seeing threads on here about some. When it comes to it, unless it was a car I knew, friends etc then I would have doubts over it.


Some on here know me from my "other" forum - the (Rover) 75 & ZT Owners Club one.

Different scenario to yours but in the last couple of months I've picked up a "top of the range" 2002 Connoisseur SE spec manual Rover 75 diesel estate.

One owner from new with all the docs to show that. 75K miles with full service history. Decent MoT history. Needed an MoT - which it passed with a single advisory for a de-laminating rear number plate :lol: - and a new battery. There some scrapes and scratches to deal with but read on.....

This is the one with the BMW M47(R) 2 litre turbo 4 cylinder diesel engine and all the real walnut and leather you could ask for along with all electric heated seats, auto dimming mirror, rain sensing wipers, headlight washers and the double opening tailgate where the rear window opens independently of the main tailgate etc. etc . There's members with over 300K on their cars :doublesho and the forum is just superb.

And the cost.......

Less than £500.


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## Darlofan (Nov 24, 2010)

AndyN01 said:


> Some on here know me from my "other" forum - the (Rover) 75 & ZT Owners Club one.
> 
> Different scenario to yours but in the last couple of months I've picked up a "top of the range" 2002 Connoisseur SE spec manual Rover 75 diesel estate.
> 
> ...


Now at that price I would take a punt.
The engine and spec etc would mean nothing to me though. I check things like cruise control, parking sensors etc then engine size and economy but wouldn't know anything about engine types etc.

Saw this one last night (mainly for colour)

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202011216356320

Only the mileage put me off, I know it's got plenty of miles left but 18mths and it'll be where mine is now.


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## SteveTDCi (Feb 8, 2006)

The Merc looks tidy, if you going to pile miles on a car then spend as little as possible. My 508 was £4700, it was on 98k and is a 2012 car, there are a few niggles with it but its a lot of car for the money. Oh and the Rover, the M47 is the bullet proof engine, the later version N47 is a ticking time bomb.


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## SteveW (Feb 21, 2006)

Darlofan said:


> Saw this one last night (mainly for colour)
> 
> https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202011216356320
> 
> Only the mileage put me off, I know it's got plenty of miles left but 18mths and it'll be where mine is now.


There's a big difference between a high mileage Merc and a high mileage Vauxhall though!

That said, there's also a big difference in the cost of repairing a Merc compared to a Vauxhall IF it goes wrong!

I tend to keep my cars until they're relatively high miles, Mondeo was 160k when it died, my Vectra B had around 150k on it and my Cavalier had 139k.

But like you, I'm not sure I'd want to be buying one at that mileage with a view to keeping it for a number of years.


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## Rakti (Nov 11, 2019)

Really enjoying this thread and debate.


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## SteveTDCi (Feb 8, 2006)

SteveW said:


> There's a big difference between a high mileage Merc and a high mileage Vauxhall though!
> 
> That said, there's also a big difference in the cost of repairing a Merc compared to a Vauxhall IF it goes wrong!
> 
> ...


In fairness the Vauxhall is less likely to go wrong. The Mercs can suffer with injector issues, google merc black death. Rear legroom in the C Class isn't great, so if space is the thing then try an E Class, although all mercs seem to suffer corroded brake pipes.


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## ollienoclue (Jan 30, 2017)

This thread is great. I don't know what brings me out in a cold sweat more, the thought of a DSG gearbox pulling 1800kg up a hill slowly or driving on a motorway whilst towing at 85mph... I guess everything is exciting once!


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## SteveW (Feb 21, 2006)

SteveTDCi said:


> In fairness the Vauxhall is less likely to go wrong. The Mercs can suffer with injector issues, google merc black death. Rear legroom in the C Class isn't great, so if space is the thing then try an E Class, although all mercs seem to suffer corroded brake pipes.


That surprises me to be honest, knowing what my Cavalier and Vectra were like! (I loved them despite their issues!)

I always thought the more expensive cars went wrong less often, but when they did go wrong they cost you a lot more!

That said I was advised by many to not buy my Mondeo ST TDCi before I bought it because the turbo would die, the injectors would fail and the DMF would need replacing. I covered over 90k miles in it and all I ever had to replace was a snapped auxilliary belt, all four springs (common Ford issue, but also due to our terrible roads), wheel bearings and brake discs/pads.

Well that was until it went bang and put a hole in two pistons :lol:

What I'm getting at though is that you don't _always_ get the common issues. But sometimes you get all of them and more.

It's always a bit of a lottery buying second hand I guess....


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## SteveTDCi (Feb 8, 2006)

Most cars if maintained will cover moon miles, the 2.2 lump in the Mondeo isn't bad (i've got a 2.2 Zetec and i'd drive anywhere - until I replaced in with a 2.2 508) We see more issues with VW's than anything.


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## Darlofan (Nov 24, 2010)

SteveW said:


> There's a big difference between a high mileage Merc and a high mileage Vauxhall though!
> 
> That said, there's also a big difference in the cost of repairing a Merc compared to a Vauxhall IF it goes wrong!
> 
> ...


You been talking to my wife? Showed her the Merc, first thing she said "but it'll be expensive if it needs repairs." :lol:



Rakti said:


> Really enjoying this thread and debate.


Me too, my minds swaying all over the place.



SteveTDCi said:


> In fairness the Vauxhall is less likely to go wrong. The Mercs can suffer with injector issues, google merc black death. Rear legroom in the C Class isn't great, so if space is the thing then try an E Class, although all mercs seem to suffer corroded brake pipes.


My Insignia will be due cambelt soon, plus battery issue at the moment. Suspension I'm thinking is sounding rattley too. It's at the stage where I throw some money at it but then I'll live in fear of ongoing issues.



SteveW said:


> That surprises me to be honest, knowing what my Cavalier and Vectra were like! (I loved them despite their issues!)
> 
> I always thought the more expensive cars went wrong less often, but when they did go wrong they cost you a lot more!
> 
> ...


My last car, Mondeo was on 165k when I changed it, remember worrying about the turbo fir whole 5 yrs I owned it due to what I'd read. :lol:


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## suds (Apr 27, 2012)

Starting to sound like a choice between Volvo and Skoda Superb


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## Rakti (Nov 11, 2019)

SteveTDCi said:


> Most cars if maintained will cover moon miles, the 2.2 lump in the Mondeo isn't bad (i've got a 2.2 Zetec and i'd drive anywhere - until I replaced in with a 2.2 508) We see more issues with VW's than anything.


Didn't want to say this, but as Steve's said the above; when we were looking for a car for my partner a few years back, one garage we went to said they had more trouble with German cars than those from any other country. I was quite surprised to hear that. Obviously, he said the Japanese brands were easily the most trouble free, which was no surprise.


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## AndyN01 (Feb 16, 2016)

Just to add a bit more confusion...

Maybe it's my age but IMHO if you're covering big mileage then a big engine doing very little is better than a little one working it's pistons off.

So, a 3 litre lump is likely to be a better bet than a 1.6. Yes, on paper the 1.6 will do more mpg but that "saving" will be wiped out and then some if you need, say, a new turbo for the 1.6 because it's "stressed" rather than just bumbling along. The big engine is also more likely to cope better with towing as it's likely to be in a substantial, solid car to start with.

Also, big mileages can only realistically be covered on Motorways and Dual Carriageways where there should be very little overall wear. Everything is fully up to temperature and not much happening with brakes etc. and almost nothing with starter motors etc.

Sorry 

Andy.


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## Darlofan (Nov 24, 2010)

AndyN01 said:


> Just to add a bit more confusion...
> 
> Maybe it's my age but IMHO if you're covering big mileage then a big engine doing very little is better than a little one working it's pistons off.
> 
> ...


I'm looking at 2l. Wife's is 1.6 and I notice a massive difference to my 2l now. Majority of my miles are AandB roads around N Wales, we're not lucky enough to have motorways up here:lol:
Mum lives in Darlington so in normal years there's a few journeys up there and back which is all motorway.


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## Rakti (Nov 11, 2019)

AndyN01 said:


> Just to add a bit more confusion...
> 
> Maybe it's my age but IMHO if you're covering big mileage then a big engine doing very little is better than a little one working it's pistons off.
> 
> ...


Maybe SteveTDCi can chip in here; I would say the above would have been correct 30 years ago, but with the tech in cars these days, I'm not sure it is now? Certainly, when turbo technology entered the mass market, engines might have been more stressed under hard driving, but haven't things moved on?


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## TakDetails (Apr 25, 2020)

Interesting seeing negative comments about the DSG. I think it’s a good gearbox especially the wet clutch. From memory, the 7 speed dry clutch box was the one with all the issues, but they stopped manufacturing this box (correct me if I’m wrong). As long as the box is serviced every 40k and of course driven with somewhat mechanical sympathy it ‘should’ be fine. I may have missed if the OP prefers an auto or manual but if it’s auto then torque converter is considered the safer option and is a smoother gearbox, especially by ZF.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## SteveTDCi (Feb 8, 2006)

TakDetails said:


> Interesting seeing negative comments about the DSG. I think it's a good gearbox especially the wet clutch. From memory, the 7 speed dry clutch box was the one with all the issues, but they stopped manufacturing this box (correct me if I'm wrong). As long as the box is serviced every 40k and of course driven with somewhat mechanical sympathy it 'should' be fine. I may have missed if the OP prefers an auto or manual but if it's auto then torque converter is considered the safer option and is a smoother gearbox, especially by ZF.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


That's the thing though, maintenance, some people don't question it some people don't bother. We have seen one of the 7spd DSG boxes where while waiting to park the gearbox decided it no longer wanted to go backwards or forwards, there are no oil or filters to change on the 7speed and this one had decided that it wanted to punch something through the mechatronic unit. WE don't deal with gearboxes so off it went, I believe it cost the customer just over 3k to put it right, the car is now drinking oil.

Big engines are less stressed and if you wanted a VAG car then an A6 3.0TDi Quattro would make a great car, the A8 is a bargain if you like big cars.

Mercs, the engine is pretty good, a bit rough but suffers occasionally from sensor issues, injectors - mainly leaking - but so do the 1.6 PSA engine cars.

We have seen one of the biturbo Mercs suffer from turbo failure, well not so much the turbo but the actuator, some companies can repair but it usually ends up with a new turbo -£1700 job, gearbox, the newer ones with stop start to change the oil properly is around £400, the aux oil pump needs to come out to drain the torque convertor, there are 2 seals that we replace then 10 litres of oil, you can just drain the box but you get less than half the oil out.

The newer 1.6 Vauxhall's with biturbos also have issues with the turbo. We currently have a Golf GTi thats having issues thats probably going to end up with an engine, we also have a dead Volvo but thats a result of a cambelt being run for 157k ....

Maintenance is key but VW's stopped being reliable when the 1.9TDi was phased out.


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## Bristle Hound (May 31, 2009)

@SteveTDCi -  hell mate!
After reading your comments I’m never buying any car ever again :lol:


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## SteveTDCi (Feb 8, 2006)

Bristle Hound said:


> @SteveTDCi -  hell mate!
> After reading your comments I'm never buying any car ever again :lol:


:lol::lol::lol::lol: I really should upload some pictures of some of the crap we get in, one of the techs stuck a used engine in a 1.6 Golf only to find the used engine also knackered !! a lot of it comes down to how they are treated but sometimes people get so far in they have no option but to throw money at the car.


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## Rakti (Nov 11, 2019)

SteveTDCi said:


> :lol::lol::lol::lol: I really should upload some pictures of some of the crap we get in, one of the techs stuck a used engine in a 1.6 Golf only to find the used engine also knackered !! a lot of it comes down to how they are treated but sometimes people get so far in they have no option but to throw money at the car.


 What's the 1.2 16v engine like in my 04 Clio Steve? Done 90k.


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## SadlyDistracted (Jan 18, 2013)

Unfortunately I think there's an elememt of pot luck.
Years ago I and mate bought tdi 150 pds, mine a bora his a golf. At 10k miles I had mine chipped. 
We both covered ~110K miles and in that time I had no problems, but did treat the turbo with respect, allowing engine to warm up before using much throttle and allowing to cool down before turning off, basically driving gently for the last few miles before turning off. Also changing engine oil about every 9 to 10k miles with mobile 1 or Castrol edge. Gave the gearbox an oil change at ~50k.
Mates Golf had major AC problems, a turbo failure and a head gasket. 
Both were owned from new and with full VW SHs.


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## TakDetails (Apr 25, 2020)

SteveTDCi said:


> That's the thing though, maintenance, some people don't question it some people don't bother. We have seen one of the 7spd DSG boxes where while waiting to park the gearbox decided it no longer wanted to go backwards or forwards, there are no oil or filters to change on the 7speed and this one had decided that it wanted to punch something through the mechatronic unit. WE don't deal with gearboxes so off it went, I believe it cost the customer just over 3k to put it right, the car is now drinking oil.
> 
> Big engines are less stressed and if you wanted a VAG car then an A6 3.0TDi Quattro would make a great car, the A8 is a bargain if you like big cars.
> 
> ...


Yep. That must've been the dry clutch. The problem is VW don't cover this on a service and looking at forums many say some dealerships say it doesn't need to be done - just inconsistent across the franchises. The only good thing is it's a fixed price lol.

The 1.9TDI is a very good engine my old man had it in his Passat B6. Not the most powerful engine but bulletproof.

As mentioned previously, it's a good thing we can all agree that car buying is pot luck across the board though... so with that in mind without sounding facetious... good luck to the OP whatever you decide.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Darlofan (Nov 24, 2010)

SteveTDCi said:


> :lol::lol::lol::lol: I really should upload some pictures of some of the crap we get in, one of the techs stuck a used engine in a 1.6 Golf only to find the used engine also knackered !! a lot of it comes down to how they are treated but sometimes people get so far in they have no option but to throw money at the car.


Now, that would be a good thread. :thumb:


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## SteveTDCi (Feb 8, 2006)

Rakti said:


> What's the 1.2 16v engine like in my 04 Clio Steve? Done 90k.


Surprisingly Clio's ain't bad, its mainly suspension on those, the next gen the front subframe rots out but is a bolt on job, the gen after that we have just replaced a gearbox in that was loud. But renaults - unless they have the diesel are not too bad.


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## AndyN01 (Feb 16, 2016)

Darlofan said:


> I'm looking at 2l. Wife's is 1.6 and I notice a massive difference to my 2l now. Majority of my miles are AandB roads around N Wales, we're not lucky enough to have motorways up here:lol:
> Mum lives in Darlington so in normal years there's a few journeys up there and back which is all motorway.


If it's VAG 2.0 diesel do your homework. If it's one where VW have done the upgrade/remap whatever it's called from the mpg fiddling scandal then beware.

My neighbour had one. It was a lovely drive - until VW "corrected" it. Worse performance and worse mpg. They might be too old for what you're looking at but a heads up anyway. There were other issues - oil pump? injectors? - but I think they were sorted a good while ago.

I reckon Steve could be worth a consultants fee for finding/recommending a good un :thumb: 

Andy.


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## SteveW (Feb 21, 2006)

Beginning to wish I hadn't read this thread :lol:

I bought the Leon thinking I was getting a better class of car/engine. Now I'm not so sure.....


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## notfub (May 9, 2007)

I had a Leon ST 184 FR DSG diesel from new, covering 97k miles over 5 years of ownership.
Only problem was a rear light unit that let a little moisture in which was changed under warranty. Regularly saw 55mpg+. The car is genuinely quick and entertaining to drive but can understeer when pushed. Tyre wear was good (Uniroyal Rainsport 3's). Sat nav was ok but not as easy to use as a tomtom. Mine had auto cruise control with the radar up front that really was excellent in traffic, adjusting the speed based on the car in front etc. Also had the seat sound upgrade which was well worth it. I opted for the 19" alloys for the looks but I'd go for the standard 18"s for the extra comfort. I used some old VW passat alloys with winter tyres and it was genuinely more comfortable on long drives. The paint was soft and did pick up several chips over time. Great car, no squeaks and rattles and only changed it (for a Megane RS) as I hit 50 and had a crisis!


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## ollienoclue (Jan 30, 2017)

I'm not sure I buy into the automatic thinking that turbocharged small engine = bad and big grunter that doesn't struggle= good.

If the engine has been correctly designed and has adequate lubrication and cooling, and the crank and con rods are up for the abuse then there should be no discernible difference in longevity between the two. After all, fuel delivery these days is no longer governed by your foot but by a computer that won't let the engine have any more juice than the amount of air, timing and revs will allow for reasons of emissions.

Bigger engines, once you add in the greater amount of plumbing, gaskets, balancer shafts, x2 heads and gaskets etc etc etc have a heck of a lot more points of failure in store than a small 4 cylinder transverse mounted engine.

My Uncle has been in the automotive business since he was in school. He would be the first to admit that modern cars are vastly better in reliability terms than the things being driven around in the 80's and 90's. For starters, materials science and lubrication has moved on massively and most manufacturers even know how to stop steel corroding today. It's no surprise you will find modern cars that have done 200-300K miles in a relatively modest lifespan. Had you tried that in the 80's and 90's it would often have involved major surgery to the engine.


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## AndyN01 (Feb 16, 2016)

ollienoclue said:


> ......
> 
> It's no surprise you will find modern cars that have done 200-300K miles in a relatively modest lifespan....../QUOTE]
> 
> ...


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## Darlofan (Nov 24, 2010)

Right, update time. 
So, spent a relaxing Xmas browsing Autotrader and fending off emails from eager salesmen on cars I enquired about and then told I wasn't interested in! On the flip side, there are also 4 cars I enquired about where I've had no reply whatsoever.
Decided against the Leon's although I really like them purely on the towing front and higher up driving position. 
Concentrated then on Kugas as all other suv types weren't ticking as many boxes. Then the doubts built up about viewing difficulties due to Covid and the enthusiasm of normal car buying was waning, I really think had this been normal times I'd have a new car by now.
So with all these doubts and difficulties I then heard from my boss about starting back after Xmas, pressures at work in January etc. How he hoped we'd limp through to March with no more redundancies and see how it went then. With that in my mind I'm now at the stage of keeping my car until later in the year. If a job change happens a few boxes could change with a new car(mileage, age etc.)
The exciting part out of this is, my plan of throwing some love and long deserved attention at my Insignia. Culminating in a mass detail in the Spring. She's been neglected over the last few years with house renovations so is in need of it. 
Cheers to all those who replied, I've loved the responses, hopefully I'll be re reading the thread come Summer time.


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## notfub (May 9, 2007)

Darlofan said:


> Right, update time.
> So, spent a relaxing Xmas browsing Autotrader and fending off emails from eager salesmen on cars I enquired about and then told I wasn't interested in! On the flip side, there are also 4 cars I enquired about where I've had no reply whatsoever.
> Decided against the Leon's although I really like them purely on the towing front and higher up driving position.
> Concentrated then on Kugas as all other suv types weren't ticking as many boxes. Then the doubts built up about viewing difficulties due to Covid and the enthusiasm of normal car buying was waning, I really think had this been normal times I'd have a new car by now.
> ...


Think you've made the right call there. Fingers crossed things work out job wise and in a few months time you'll be in a better position to bump this thread and start more debate, discussion and banter. Good luck.:thumb:


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## SteveTDCi (Feb 8, 2006)

Better to spend money on what you know, especially given the current state of the economy.

The nickname for the ecoboost was the eco pop, it was a cooling issue that was killing them, at one point our local dealer was replacing engines, roughly 5-6 per week. The 1.5TDCI was shearing the cam pulley off too. I think the issues with the ecoboost are resolved now, the powershift gearbox issues were resolved by dropping the DCT style box and moving towards a torque convertor set up. It affected the dry clutch version mostly.


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## Rakti (Nov 11, 2019)

SteveTDCi said:


> Better to spend money on what you know, especially given the current state of the economy.
> 
> The nickname for the ecoboost was the eco pop, it was a cooling issue that was killing them, at one point our local dealer was replacing engines, roughly 5-6 per week. The 1.5TDCI was shearing the cam pulley off too. I think the issues with the ecoboost are resolved now, the powershift gearbox issues were resolved by dropping the DCT style box and moving towards a torque convertor set up. It affected the dry clutch version mostly.


Makes one wonder how that Ecoboost engine passed the rigorous testing that engines surely (?) go through! I presume they're tested *in the car* before release?


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## AndyN01 (Feb 16, 2016)

SteveTDCi said:


> ...The nickname for the ecoboost was the eco pop, it was a cooling issue that was killing them, at one point our local dealer was replacing engines, roughly 5-6 per week. The 1.5TDCI was shearing the cam pulley off too. I think the issues with the ecoboost are resolved now, the powershift gearbox issues were resolved by dropping the DCT style box and moving towards a torque convertor set up. It affected the dry clutch version mostly.


Cheers Steve,

Thanks for the correct nickname. Don't know where I'd got Eco Bang from?

But, like Rakti says, how on earth do they get through the testing :doublesho 

Andy.


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## SteveTDCi (Feb 8, 2006)

Nothing like getting customers to find the breaking point, irc it was a coolant pipe that would fracture and the engine would dispose of its coolant in seconds and cook itself.


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## SteveW (Feb 21, 2006)

Darlofan said:


> Right, update time.
> So, spent a relaxing Xmas browsing Autotrader and fending off emails from eager salesmen on cars I enquired about and then told I wasn't interested in! On the flip side, there are also 4 cars I enquired about where I've had no reply whatsoever.
> Decided against the Leon's although I really like them purely on the towing front and higher up driving position.
> Concentrated then on Kugas as all other suv types weren't ticking as many boxes. Then the doubts built up about viewing difficulties due to Covid and the enthusiasm of normal car buying was waning, I really think had this been normal times I'd have a new car by now.
> ...


Probably a wise move to be honest given all the circumstances and situation we're all in. I certainly wouldn't have bought my Leon in June if my Mondeo hadn't decided to throw a strop and kill itself :lol:

Also, there's nothing like throwing a bit of love at a car that you've become a bit bored of to make you see it in a completely different light for a while at least


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