# Have I bought a lemon?



## Knight Rider (Jun 17, 2008)

Hi guys, my work hack Peugeot 306 HDI estate finally gave up at MOT time, so I sold for spares / repairs and looked for another car.

I could not find a decent estate anywhere, then one came up locally that seemed to fit the bill. A 2006 Mondeo 2.0 TDCI 115 estate with SH, plenty of MOT and tax at 2k. Bought it as I really needed one quickly and all seemed fine.

3 weeks on, I have noticed loads of smoke when accelerating, thought it may just be Mondeo's, but then a full tank only did around 450 miles, which I thought was low (approx 37mpg). Took the EGR off and cleaned, (really blocked) and also put in STP injector cleaner in a tank full of fuel and run through. Smoke is still the same.

There is a sound when accelerating heavily, that I can only describe as the sound of a flag in high wind, a kind of flapping noise, i'm not sure what that points to.

Lastly, I have noticed over the last week, when I depress the clutch while sat, there is a pulsing I can feel in my foot. I'm guessing this will be the dreaded DMF ? (I try not to be too negative, but things are getting a bit draining!)

Stupidly, I had no money for the car apart from the 100 quid scrap I got for the peugeot, so used our overdraft, and this week, my wife has been told her last day at work will be in 3 weeks time. (although in the role for approx 18 years, it was through an agency, rolling contracts etc, that changed reasonably recently, which means redundancy due is approx 3 weeks pay) 
Due to this, I can't really afford big bills, so if it gets worse, I am guessing this will end up the same way as the Peugeot (scrap) and I do need a car for work!

With the info above regarding the issues I am having, would you say I have bought a lemon, and it's looking a bit iffy for me? :lol:


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## Mick (Jan 23, 2010)

possible boost leak? open the bonnet and check the hose coming from the bottom of the EGR valve to the top of the intercooler. feel round the back at the big bend right near the top. 9 times out of 10 there will be a hole/cut there (approx £60 for the ford part, pattern ones are hard to find).

Ive changed that same bit of hose 3 times in the 4 years ive owned my 2004 mondeo.

pulsing sounds like it *could* be the start of DMF failure, but it could also be other things (thrust bearings etc) - and probably isnt related to your poor MPG.

They are fairly smokey engines in general though, so dont be too disheartened by that (unless its overly concerning - in which case, smoke colour?), Ive noticed that once you get a boost leak it does seem to get worse though.


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## bidderman1969 (Oct 20, 2006)

take it back to the garage, or did or buy it privately?


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## Vossman (Aug 5, 2010)

Sounds like the DMF to me and also injectors, Mondeo are known for them, £200 quid each to replace, I think I would try and part ex it somewhere or maybe swap it for something else, large bills are due, good luck with it though.


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## deano93tid (May 8, 2013)

Knight Rider said:


> There is a sound when accelerating heavily, that I can only describe as the sound of a flag in high wind, a kind of flapping noise, i'm not sure what that points to.


Turbo?


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## SteveTDCi (Feb 8, 2006)

I wouldn't say you have got a lemon as such, it does seem that there are a lot of Mondeos that have issues with EGR's, DMF's and injectors. If it was me i would be looking at selling very soon and looking for a cheap petrol car, unless you are doing mega mileage. In which case go and find yourself an old 406/C5 HDi


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## Knight Rider (Jun 17, 2008)

Mick said:


> possible boost leak? open the bonnet and check the hose coming from the bottom of the EGR valve to the top of the intercooler. feel round the back at the big bend right near the top. 9 times out of 10 there will be a hole/cut there (approx £60 for the ford part, pattern ones are hard to find).
> 
> Ive changed that same bit of hose 3 times in the 4 years ive owned my 2004 mondeo.
> 
> ...


Thanks Mick, took a quick look at the pipes over most of the engine, could not feel a split / leak anywhere, but will check again. Smoke is just black.



bidderman1969 said:


> take it back to the garage, or did or buy it privately?


Privately, from a guy who had a genuine reason for sale (another reason I liked the purchase and thought I had found a good one) as he was moving abroad.


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## Knight Rider (Jun 17, 2008)

deano93tid said:


> Turbo?


Oh Feck! :wall:

It gets worse

:car: <---Something I don't think I will be doing for much longer.


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## Mick (Jan 23, 2010)

if your turbo had started to go, i would expect your smoke to take on a blue tinge from the oil content, but I did suspect a failing turbo from your description of the noise. what sort of mileage is the car on?


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## GNshaving (Feb 13, 2014)

Does the turbo make a lot of noise?


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## Knight Rider (Jun 17, 2008)

SteveTDCi said:


> I wouldn't say you have got a lemon as such, it does seem that there are a lot of Mondeos that have issues with EGR's, DMF's and injectors. If it was me i would be looking at selling very soon and looking for a cheap petrol car, unless you are doing mega mileage. In which case go and find yourself an old 406/C5 HDi


Not sure if I could try and sell it as it is, and put the car with its issues to someone else.

May have to look at petrols I think, its just because work send me all over the place, and the mileage they give me is pants, so I try to get a car that does good mpg - the Peugeot never let me down till the rust killed it


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## Knight Rider (Jun 17, 2008)

GNshaving said:


> Does the turbo make a lot of noise?


Not sure I've ever heard it?

Sorry to sound thick....in the Pug, it whined all the time and you knew it was there, I'm not sure I can hear this one, but I have been in other TD's that don't seem to make a particular sound.


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## Mick (Jan 23, 2010)

when the engine is under load and the revs are up ast 1500-2k, you should definately be able to make out a whooshing from the turbo if nothing else.


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## Knight Rider (Jun 17, 2008)

Mick said:


> when the engine is under load and the revs are up ast 1500-2k, you should definately be able to make out a whooshing from the turbo if nothing else.


I think that is where I hear the "flag flapping " sound - - what "should" it sound like? and on the way home I will hang my head out  and have a listen.


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## gds (May 9, 2012)

My parents bought a private sale TDCI Mondeo. All was good on test drive but when started from cold it would misfire and chuck out white smoke for a good 10 seconds, then run fine except for a bit of excessive black smoke under acceleration. This was injectors. Then also the HP fuel pump. £1500 later it runs well.


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## deano93tid (May 8, 2013)

Knight Rider said:


> I think that is where I hear the "flag flapping " sound - - what "should" it sound like? and on the way home I will hang my head out  and have a listen.


When you hear the flapping sound my guess would be either the recirc valve or the turbo actuator.

As mentioned above the smoke should have a tinge to it to confirm turbo failure. To begin with the smoke would only appear around start up if I am served correct.


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## Knight Rider (Jun 17, 2008)

gds said:


> My parents bought a private sale TDCI Mondeo. All was good on test drive but when started from cold it would misfire and chuck out white smoke for a good 10 seconds, then run fine except for a bit of excessive black smoke under acceleration. This was injectors. Then also the HP fuel pump. £1500 later it runs well.


Ahhh - right, theres something I forgot to mention - when cold, the idle is lumpy, only lasts minutes, then seems fine for the rest of the day / journey.

This is looking like its' going to be a complete and utter ballache. I was recommended one of these, as they are easy to fix etc. I think I may as well have bought the 400 quid scrapper with a couple of months MOT on it I saw first.

TBH then, it sounds like i'm stuffed, might be best to cut losses, sell as is with probs mentioned, take the hit and take shank's pony for a while. Can tell work i'm without wheels, they can pay for train fares.

Another stupid thing we did (wife didnt know she was going to be made redundant) was buy a proper Ford dog guard, new reg plates (as the ones on it were cracked) and a few other buts and pieces to tidy it up, as it seemed fine....typically wasting more money after bad.

Cheers guys

Edit to say, nothing on dash to say anything is wrong - is it worth paying for a diags done, or is that yet more money wasted you reckon?


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## ardandy (Aug 18, 2006)

Find out exactly what it is as forum diagnostics are often worse case. Spend £50 to find out what it is. Better than just throwing it away.


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## Starbuck88 (Nov 12, 2013)

If you're not looking to flog it on with issues and you think you're gonna end up just scrapping it or it dieing on you....just drive it and forget about it.

Take the advice from others on here on bits and pieces you can do and test cheaply and just drive it. You'll be surprised at how long it'll go on for.


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## Knight Rider (Jun 17, 2008)

asonda said:


> If you're not looking to flog it on with issues and you think you're gonna end up just scrapping it or it dieing on you....just drive it and forget about it.
> 
> Take the advice from others on here on bits and pieces you can do and test cheaply and just drive it. You'll be surprised at how long it'll go on for.


Thats what I'm thinking now, maybe drive it till it dies, I really don't know whether to spend money on diags to find it out, as thats more money on it, but on the other hand, it might point out something that could cause a few of the issues I seem to be having.

Not told the missus yet! I bloody daren't! :lol:


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## craigeh123 (Dec 26, 2011)

The pulsing through pedal will be dmf as could the flapping the noise . Other flapping noises can come from the aux belt and tensioner setup . Sometimes you cant see the splits in the boost hoses with them on and have to remove them .

I wouldn't say you bought a lemon but tbh any new diesel car is bloody expensive to put right far outweighing any fuel you may have saved . As stated mondeos suffer dmf , injectors , turbos , aux drive tensioner and crank pulley , handbrake cables seize , rear calipers seize . 

But plenty of other manufacturers suffer injectors and turbos etc . Get rid get a focus petrol most you'll do on that is a coil pack and rear wheel bearings


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## Luke M (Jul 1, 2013)

asonda said:


> If you're not looking to flog it on with issues and you think you're gonna end up just scrapping it or it dieing on you....just drive it and forget about it.
> 
> Take the advice from others on here on bits and pieces you can do and test cheaply and just drive it. You'll be surprised at how long it'll go on for.


I'm with this guy if all else fails. As it turned out with my bora (also a td) in my case was losing coolant at a hilarious rate ended up being a cracked head ran for nine months before giving up. It had 210k on it when it started to go and died with 224k on it. Which was more than enough time for me to bolster the savings account while the wife was pregnant.


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## SteveTDCi (Feb 8, 2006)

Have a look on ebay and see how many TDCi's are listed as spares or repairs needing injectors. You should have got the good old TDDi


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## Knight Rider (Jun 17, 2008)

Just driven home, and hope someone can help here with the suspected DMF issue?

Started the car from cold, clutch down, which is the way you are told to, and this is where I can feel the clutch vibrating / pulsing under my foot. (remember i have the cold idle issue) Once the car is warm, I parked up, and popped the clutch in....no vibrating / pulsing coming from the clutch pedal!

Is this still pointing to DMF failure, or something else as it disappears once warm?

Thanks in advance.

As for the turbo, I cannot tell anything at the mo, as there seemed to be no flapping noise OR whooshing noise that I can tell.

Cheers


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## craigeh123 (Dec 26, 2011)

Id say if your feeling it from cold but its gone when warm its because the engine is vibrating possibly running rough which is transferred back through the pedal


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## griffin1907 (Mar 4, 2006)

On a slight 'off'. How much do your work pay you for mileage? Cos you can easily claim up to 45p (I think) per mile from HMRC???


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## SteveTDCi (Feb 8, 2006)

The rates are only advisory,


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## Geordieexile (May 21, 2013)

This flapping flag noise, is it under acceleration?

I once had a similar noise I put down to a turbo. When I'd bought the new one and all the expensive gaskets I started the job. Removed the exhaust manifold with the turbo attached and at this point noticed a couple of loose bolts where the turbo mounted to the manifold. Turned out it was just a flappy / farty noise from the gasket because the blts were loose. 

You can get a basic fault code reader from the bay for around £12 but tbh, if there's an injector fault it can detect then there'll normally be an ECU lamp on.

Only had one DMF issue myself and it was noticeable only at idle when stationary, temperature didnt make a difference for mine.


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## linuxmanju (Oct 12, 2013)

Not sure if it counts mate. But I would start by checking for blow by 



 . Keep an eye on the engine oil level as well ( is it guzzling more oil than it is supposed to). I read somewhere that earlier TDCI engines are known for injector failures, may be you would like to check on that as well.

Don't worry mate, once you sort out all the issues with it you will be proud of this purchase.


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## Knight Rider (Jun 17, 2008)

Update - 

Car was tested on the proper diags equipment - passed everything, no errors, so my EGR clean was obviously good!

Still hunting when cold.

Driving like miss daisy, I have got it from 30 ish mpg to over 40mpg.

Reckon it will still need a DMF, but seeing how it goes first before I spunk a load of cash I dont have on it.

Cheers guys


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## craigeh123 (Dec 26, 2011)

Id just drive it mate , get breakdown cover . The dmf cost is gonna be the same no matter how buggered it is


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## Knight Rider (Jun 17, 2008)

Cheers Craig, 
think thats what I will do for now. :thumb:


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## bidderman1969 (Oct 20, 2006)

Car still ok or did you get it fixed?


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## Knight Rider (Jun 17, 2008)

Hi guys, Thought I would update as I have been driving it now for approx 13k, over the last 7 months.

Smoking - - Still smoking like a trooper, black in first gear, grey in all other gears. Been hooked up to a Ford Diags, no fault could be found. Drives extremely well still.

MPG - - Gone from the initial 30's to now a regular 47 -48 mpg (brim to brim calcs, as OBC reckons 66 mpg:lol: )

DMF - - Have done nothing with it, just drive it sensibly - not too low revs, clutch in when starting etc. Drives faultlessly, with very smooth gear changes. So effectively all I get is the pulsing in your foot from the clutch pedal, and a knocking noise on initial start - up which seems to go away after a few mins. 

This has done a mix of town driving and motorway miles, including massive hills in Cornwall, Devon, Peaks etc.

Not sure what to do now, MOT is due around Christmas, will see how it does on that!

Cheers


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## Steve (Mar 18, 2014)

Drive it till it stops.


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## nick_mcuk (Jan 4, 2008)

Steve said:


> Drive it till it stops.


Exactly that...drive it till it dies then scrap it and get something else.

Did your Mrs get another job sorted?


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## Knight Rider (Jun 17, 2008)

Steve said:


> Drive it till it stops.


Thats what I'm thinking.



nick_mcuk said:


> Exactly that...drive it till it dies then scrap it and get something else.
> 
> Did your Mrs get another job sorted?


Yep, spose its this then, however, it does seem such a waste!!!

She did thanks Nick! Although was made redundant again within months!, but straight into a better job, so not so bad now! Thanks :thumb:


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## Starbuck88 (Nov 12, 2013)

Our 2nd car is a 206 2.0HDi.

We've had it 5 years, currently, it drinks oil and water like nobodys business, the radiator fan doesn't work, the engine management light is on because the turbo actuator isn't allowing the turbo to spool properly, there is slight slip on the clutch I think an injector is clicking really bad, I'm sure there is an exhaust leak somewhere and the back box is held on by 2 after market straps and it's done 180,000 something miles.

It's ok though as it doesn't owe us anything any more and we'll carry on using it for as long as it wants to serve us.

Often a car like yours mate, are the best type of cars to have


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## phillipnoke (Apr 1, 2011)

All Peugeot are lemons


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## Starbuck88 (Nov 12, 2013)

phillipnoke said:


> All Peugeot are lemons


haha

To be fair. I've had numerous Peugeots. Loads of them down here in Cornwall.

I've had a 405 607 206 and 207 GTi.

My sister has a 106 1.5XND which nothing ever goes wrong on (I do understand there is not a lot to go wrong)

The 207GTi was the worst out of all them. I had it when it was under 2 years old and the timing tensioner went repeatedly, major problem for PSA and BMW (Co-Developed Engine) I had enough of it going in for practically a week at a time putting new chain, tensioner, guides etc and knew they'd prob stop doing it under warranty at some point. So sold it. (The rest of the car was spot on though but one big issue taints the rest).

Just to balance it out, I've had a old M Reg Fiat Punto, P Reg E39 BMW 5 Series, V reg Ford Focus, M Reg Vauxhall Corsa (not in that order) and the peugeots were by far better cars in my opinion.


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## Ducky (Mar 19, 2007)

DMFs generally knock when cold as they start to wear, but will usually go quiet when warm (missus Tiguan does this), when it starts making the noise constantly is when you need to get it changed pronto.

You can still do thousands of miles before it starts knocking constantly (as you have done).


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## Steve (Mar 18, 2014)

nick_mcuk said:


> Exactly that...drive it till it dies then scrap it and get something else.
> 
> *Did your Mrs get another job sorted?*


Whaaaa?? :tumbleweed:


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## Raimon (Aug 18, 2014)

Drive it till it dies. People lose £2K+ each year on a newish car. If a 2K car last a year, thats good. Even better if it is £1K car.


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## nick_mcuk (Jan 4, 2008)

Steve said:


> Whaaaa?? :tumbleweed:


I was asking the original poster!


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## Steve (Mar 18, 2014)

nick_mcuk said:


> I was asking the original poster!


My bad

:lol:


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