# Citrus pre wash or tfr?



## Dode (Jun 13, 2013)

Traffic film remover or a citrus pre wash. Is one more useful than the other or much the same?


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## great gonzo (Nov 4, 2010)

Generally TFR are a bit more aggressive than a citrus pre wash, but it's down to dilution rates too. 

Do you use a wax to protect your cars?
Gonz.


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## Dode (Jun 13, 2013)

Yes. Fusso coat at the moment


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## Lowiepete (Mar 29, 2009)

As maintenance washes? Neither!

This especially in winter. The last thing your protection needs is anything
that helps it get weakened, beyond the effects of molasses laden salt!
Use the same mantra as you do with polishing, start with the least aggressive
first.

Limonene is made from lemon rinds, the by-product of which is molasses, the
industrial variety. Limonene strips oils, indiscriminately, including those helping
to bond your protection to the paint. I know that this idea of using citrus
is "flavour of the month" here, but the advice is plain wrong! 

You should have at least a basic understanding of the chemicals you are 
using. There's little doubt that I'm going to be followed with posts claiming 
white is black, however, having done my research, I'm certain of my ground.

Far better to take your time and use a surface nourishing shampoo...

Regards,
Steve


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## crymer (Apr 10, 2013)

Lowiepete said:


> As maintenance washes? Neither!
> 
> This especially in winter. The last thing your protection needs is anything
> that helps it get weakened, beyond the effects of molasses laden salt!
> ...


Okay the Citrus stuff strips oils, but what with a glass coating ?

The coating should be strong enough to withstand the chemicals without taking harm or ?


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## Lowiepete (Mar 29, 2009)

crymer said:


> The coating should be strong enough to withstand the chemicals without taking harm or ?


The strength of the coating actually justifies using less aggressive methods.
They are, or should be, much easier to clean, so there's even less reason to
consider them...

Detailing principles like the one I've mentioned are there for a reason...

Regards,
Steve


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## ShaunButton (Mar 23, 2012)

I use valet pro citrus pre wash which says its lsp safe, ive been using it a while now and havent noticed any difference in protection from fusso on mine


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## Trip tdi (Sep 3, 2008)

A tfr will be rare to see a citrus based version, a tfr generally is stronger by being alkaline based or acidic it will shift more grime and can interfere with your current productection, a tfr has it uses by removing some polish buildup and for a deeper faster clean when touchless is the aim.


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## waqasr (Oct 22, 2011)

Lowiepete said:


> As maintenance washes? Neither!
> 
> This especially in winter. The last thing your protection needs is anything
> that helps it get weakened, beyond the effects of molasses laden salt!
> ...


If this is true, then when would you use a tfr or citrus pre wash? I use it to get rid of most of the crap on the paint so there is less to remove, hopefully lowering the risk of swirls. Paint will be dirtier in the winter, so id use it especially in winter. If not, then there seems to be no need to use it at all if a surface nourishing shampoo is better in winter, then itll surely be better in summer.


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## Lowiepete (Mar 29, 2009)

waqasr said:


> If this is true, then when would you use a tfr or citrus pre wash?


Only when stripping back ready to give the paint a good clean prior to doing
a decon, clay cloth, pre-wax clean, LSP routine. Do some research on Limonene,
it may show you just how powerful it is. I'm not saying there's no place for it,
just not in a maintenance wash, especially in winter.

Regards,
Steve


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## ronwash (Mar 26, 2011)

Dont use TFR so easily,,its very agressive.
Theres two types of pre washes,one is with alkaline,and the second is alkaline free.
Read the Msds before you buy a product.
If you want your LSP to keep going dont use a alkaline added products {same for snowfoams}.


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## Suba (Feb 2, 2013)

Most chemicals are pretty powerful and many used in detailing products can do all sorts of nefarious things if used neat (e.g. IPA). 

A citrus pre-wash will inevitably degrade your LSP to an extent, but it's a trade-off between this and easier cleaning of your car, typically aiming for touchless cleaning if possible. The chemicals in a pre-wash are diluted to try and strike a balance between cleaning power and 'gentleness' for the LSP. 

TFR is generally a lot more aggressive, and is normally used to clean a vehicle that is unlikely to have any LSP applied (lorry, bus etc). They are very effective but will attack most LSPs and can also affect chrome trim etc.


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## adjones (Apr 24, 2013)

Lowiepete said:


> As maintenance washes? Neither!
> 
> This especially in winter. The last thing your protection needs is anything
> that helps it get weakened, beyond the effects of molasses laden salt!
> ...


I think that is scaremongering. What you are suggesting is that you would support someone putting their wash media onto a painted surface which has large abrasive dirt particles on it, rather than getting rid of it as risking your sacrficial protection. What you are saying is to protect your LSP and risk your paint, which is totally back to front!

As for limonene, it helps remove oils. It is hardly a guaranteed LSP stripper, especially when there is only a few percent in the product. There are lots of things which will 'indiscriminately' remove oils but a half decent LSP will last for a load of washes if you dilute the products properly. I know you are a fan or low water solutions but many of these are bunged full of things like solvents and silicones.

Horses for courses.


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## AllenF (Aug 20, 2012)

Agree with both of you.
If the dilution ratios are correct and product is used correctly then there shouldnt be any issues.
BUT a lot of people ( namely weekend warriors ) just indiscriminately get a product not knowing what its really for because they have read about it. Never having used it they have no real idea what to do with it, then find that the diluted stuff doesnt take all the dirt off as if by magic so end up using it neat. Then they come back and slate the product hen its actually operator incompetence/error
A few that spring to mind
1 can i dilute tardis ... Whats it for
2 i snowfoamed my car three times and its still dirty.
The best one i like is about pressure washers yet in the same post go on about using an open ended hose ?????? (I love those ones)
Etc etc
I guess really the bottom line is. If you DONT know what a product is for or cant be bothered to find out how to use it before you buy it then dont complain if it doesnt do what you expected it to do RATHER than what is capable of doing.


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## adjones (Apr 24, 2013)

AllenF said:


> Agree with both of you.
> If the dilution ratios are correct and product is used correctly then there shouldnt be any issues.
> BUT a lot of people ( namely weekend warriors ) just indiscriminately get a product not knowing what its really for because they have read about it. Never having used it they have no real idea what to do with it, then find that the diluted stuff doesnt take all the dirt off as if by magic so end up using it neat. Then they come back and slate the product hen its actually operator incompetence/error
> A few that spring to mind
> ...


This sort of weekend warrior behaviour is propagated by DW regulars making blind recommendations. I had a go at people with wheel cleaner recommendations. What is the best wheel cleaner? Many people will answer with smart wheels. Yes, great product but these people have no idea the wheel type the user actually has and they don't bother asking. They risk doing a whole lot of damage if the user doesn't dilute it down and even if they don't because they use it on the wrong type of wheel. DW has got seriously lazy in some regards with the same fanboys always posting the same thing, regardless of the variables involved.


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## hardyd44 (Mar 31, 2014)

Both you guys have valid points, but I will ask one question from us "weekend warriors", if we don't ask - how do we find out - it is not always clear on labelling (if any). 

I fear that this very friendly forum is becoming a "us" and "them", because sometimes people ask what to you are stupid questions, but to them are legitimate, they are learning (as we all are) and trying to increase their knowledge.

I do agree that a little searching before asking a question, would be a good idea. but should you lay into someone for asking a "daft" question?

just my tuppenworth, not trying to start a war or anything


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## adjones (Apr 24, 2013)

hardyd44 said:


> I fear that this very friendly forum is becoming a "us" and "them", because sometimes people ask what to you are stupid questions, but to them are legitimate, they are learning (as we all are) and trying to increase their knowledge.


You are just right but the problem is more. Unfortunately there are a lot of people who have just picked up the general forum answers and regurgitate and have actually convinced themselves that they know best. Every answer should have provisos. If they are not given, you shouldn't trust the answer.


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## Lowiepete (Mar 29, 2009)

My, oh my 

This discussion doesn't need to disintegrate at all! Let me take you through
a process...


> I use .... citrus pre wash which says its lsp safe, ive been using it a while now and havent noticed any difference in protection from ...


As you see, I've removed writer's name, and product names to show as close
to neutrality as I can. This isn't a vendetta, it's more like outing the BS.

Where did the term "pre-wash" come from? Only one place, the marketers.
They were reading that their most needless product in the mix was getting
feedback from users questioning its effectiveness. I speak, of course, of 
snowfoam; you have all seen the threads.

So, using two potions to wash your car "safely" is under threat; how to 
counteract? Being marketers, why not add a 2nd needless product and we'll
call it "pre-wash"? This one works; it's bound to with its chemical content.
Not only that, it's environmentally safe, so we can hide behind that too.

Then comes what I've quoted above, but it doesn't stop there. The avidly
convinced user is now an expert and he expects a pro detailer to use the
product like he does. Where does this go? To the point where PD-A is
judged to be inferior to PD-B because A has 22 processes in his detailing menu
and B has only 17.

Do you begin to see the futility? However, it doesn't stop there! There is only
one thing to do when presented with the claim I have quoted. Throw back
the challenge: Prove it!

I know, you're all going to throw the word beading back at me. Sorry, but
what does beading actually prove? Sadly, nothing. There are a million and one
situations that affect beading, some by factors! One of these is how clean the
surface is. Note that I did not say how protected it is; mark the difference!

When I post information challenging a behaviour, I do it because I care very
passionately that others can replicate methods and techniques which will
bring joy to the beholder. Did you notice that I said nothing about potions
there?

It's not about the potions and this or that claim. It's all about your methods
and the tools that you use. It's about patience but most of all, it's about
finding the least aggressive methods of achieving your goal. Just like when
you're choosing your polish and pad combinations.

Be gentle with each other guys, we're all on the same side...

Regards,
Steve


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## AllenF (Aug 20, 2012)

As above people fail to read the whole thread they just see a name and blindly buy it. 
Heres one for you all.
How would you like me to come round and cover your car in oxalic acid and leave it on there for ten minutes or so?.
Believe it or not most people are crazy about putting this stuff everywhere on the outsides of their vehicles.
Im not going to tell you where or what you know it as (as i hope many pros wont too ) time to do some research lol.


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## adjones (Apr 24, 2013)

Lowiepete said:


> My, oh my
> 
> This discussion doesn't need to disintegrate at all! Let me take you through
> a process...
> ...


Yes, there is a lot of marketing BS and the biggest DW spawned brand is horrid in this regard. If you look closely at a lot of the cleaning products which have become popular on DW, they are chemically very similar to what the Polish car wash guys use. They can market it whatever way they like, but the chemical make up does not lie. A mix of freebies and fanboys means that people lap it up and will refuse to believe.

However, not everyone is from the brand and facing the customer. Admittedly we know that there is a very weak link between many brands and the scientist, but there ARE scientists somewhere in the chain. Those guys don't get paid big money to do nothing. There are better chemicals and better products and these guys do know better than you and me. To dismiss this silly. I think you have actually taken this on board and this is likely a part in why you are an optimum fan. But they are not the only ones, likewise, eco washes are not universally good things.

I think your concerns are more suitable for a generic address, not just at prewashes or snowfoams or TFRs. I'd be much more inclined to agree with you if you weren't taking potshots at such a specific type of product.


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## Lowiepete (Mar 29, 2009)

adjones said:


> I know you are a fan of low water solutions but many of these are bunged full of things like solvents and silicones.


Harrrumph... I'm a disabled person who has done his research. My gammy
hands and feet prevent me from carrying full buckets of water. At no point
in this thread have I mentioned _any_ specific type of alternative.

I'm sure there are many wonderful car shampoos out there that will do the
job when used properly. Sadly, I'm not in a position to recommend one. All I'm
doing is pointing out that it's worth doing your research into a product that
is pretty powerful, for use in what should be a less aggressive approach to
car cleaning.

Regards,


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## GleemSpray (Jan 26, 2014)

You can pre-wash with ordinary car shampoos and hot water mixed in a pump-sprayer if you like or mixed with cold water via a foam lance.

I have done this and it can work, to some extent, but I think you need some chemistry with "bite" on occasions, particularly in winter.

As said above - decide how dirty the car is and work the chemistry up from Mild to Wild as appropriate.

TFR, by the way, is a generic term standing for Traffic Film Remover which encompasses many strengths of surface cleaning chemical from car-safe domestic grade (like the Power Maxed pre-mixed TFR) through to the high-strength grades that the likes of AutoGlym and AutoSmart sell for washing down grimy lorries and buses.

Please don't make the mistake of automatically thinking TFR = Wax stripping, chrome dulling, plastic bleaching, nuclear-strength-wear-a-biohazzrd-suit-when-using, danger chemical.

It can be if used undiluted, but if you correctly water it down, as advised by the manufacturer, it will be perfectly safe for your paint and your wax. Usually, the manufacturers will advise something like dilute 50:1 for gentle cleaning, 25:1 for stronger cleaning and 10:1 or higher for a very strong, wax stripping clean.

The same advice often comes with concentrated automotive Snowfoams, APC's, degreasers (like Surfex). They too would be over powerfull for your vehicle if used neat on certain waxs or trims.

You work out how much of a clean is needed, then follow the manufacturers guidance to dilute them appropriately.


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## Lowiepete (Mar 29, 2009)

adjones said:


> I'd be much more inclined to agree with you if you weren't taking potshots at such a specific type of product.


I'm not taking pot-shots at anything! I'd also be appreciative of you not
trying to twist my words! It's an amazing thing here, people seem to think
that "because it's detailing", then the laws of physics, chemistry and even
those of the land somehow don't apply!

My message is simple - try exploring products that are a lot less aggressive
than time-savers that can and do attack your protection. Just because I'm
doing a bit of myth-busting, does not mean that you can get personal by
insulting me or my intelligence!

Regards,
Steve


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## AllenF (Aug 20, 2012)

Steve i actually admire the way you keep your car despite being disabled.
Just goes to show that the operators attitude and approach also plays a big part.


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## Suba (Feb 2, 2013)

AllenF said:


> How would you like me to come round and cover your car in oxalic acid and leave it on there for ten minutes or so?


You can add the oxalic acid after the white spirit and xylene 

If you do a good job I'll let you drink some of my ethanol!


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## sm81 (May 14, 2011)

ronwash said:


> Theres two types of pre washes,one is with alkaline,and the second is alkaline free.
> Read the Msds before you buy a product.
> If you want your LSP to keep going dont use a alkaline added products {same for snowfoams}.


BH Autofoam is PH 12 alkaline product without dilution. If I dilute it 1:10 what would be ph then or if I use it 4% PIR (panel impact ratio).


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## adjones (Apr 24, 2013)

Lowiepete said:


> I'm not taking pot-shots at anything! I'd also be appreciative of you not
> trying to twist my words! It's an amazing thing here, people seem to think
> that "because it's detailing", then the laws of physics, chemistry and even
> those of the land somehow don't apply!
> ...


But you were, you specifically took aim at limonene.



Lowiepete said:


> Limonene strips oils, indiscriminately, including those helping
> to bond your protection to the paint. I know that this idea of using citrus
> is "flavour of the month" here, but the advice is plain wrong!


If you want to play they game, I could point out ingredients in many of those low water washes which would do the same thing. Then there is also the matter that, especially in this class of product, there are any number of unknown ingredients. How do you know that these are not potentially harming your LSP?

If you take this thread to its logical conclusion, you should use nothing more than water because absolutely every last cleaning product is going to do something to bind oils and such and will necessarily impact your LSP. I mean this in no way disrespectfully but you have admitted that you don't use the likes of prewashes and similar, so how come you feel that you know better than all the masses who use them routinely, without issue?


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## interskyfall (May 1, 2014)

Did someone use Instafinish Bug away as a pre wash before ?
I'm looking for an alternative to Valet Pro citrus pre-wash. 

Other question : Does BH Autofoam work on tires and wheel wells like an APC ?


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## Suba (Feb 2, 2013)

interskyfall said:


> Other question : Does BH Autofoam work on tires and wheel wells like an APC ?


I understand BH autofoam is related to the company's APC, Surfex HD (I may be wrong - need to ask BH directly)

I have used it on both wheels and tyres and it does clean them, although not like a dedicated wheel cleaner (and that is probably due to dilution rates too).


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## Power Maxed (Feb 12, 2014)

Our TFR is completely safe to use and it will not strip wax or other protections aslong as you do not use it under 9:1 (thats 900ml water, 100ml tfr concentrate) using it neat will strip, but under countless tests anything over 9:1 you will be perfectly fine.

It has been reviewed numerous times on here on different threads, which has proven our claims.

http://www.powermaxed.com/clean-your-car/traffic-film-remover

We are in the process of making a very strong TFR that will not be available to the general public due to the strength.


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## sm81 (May 14, 2011)

Power Maxed said:


> Our TFR is completely safe to use and it will not strip wax or other protections aslong as you do not use it under 9:1 (thats 900ml water, 100ml tfr concentrate) using it neat will strip, but under countless tests anything over 9:1 you will be perfectly fine.
> 
> It has been reviewed numerous times on here on different threads, which has proven our claims.
> 
> ...


What is your TFR PH and how good it is comparing BH Autofoam when using it same dilution ratio 20:1.


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## nbray67 (Mar 22, 2012)

sm81 said:


> What is your TFR PH and how good it is comparing BH Autofoam when using it same dilution ratio 20:1.


I've used both sm81 and BH Autofoam was my go to prewash/snowfoam before I tried the PM TFR.

I was using BH at 10:1 as snowfoam and down to 5:1 as a prewash and found it worked well but honestly, and this is my opinion, nowhere near as good as the PM TFR at 9:1. I'll be using the PM TFR at 20:1 next time as I think it'll do a very good job at this ratio.

PM's website say's the Ph value is 13.

I know people see TFR and think it'll affect LSP's but so far for me, I can see no difference in my LSP's characteristics when using BH and now using PM TFR.

Also, for many of us on here, LSP's only last as long as we want them to, which is quite short term at times, when it comes to us stripping them back to try other products.

If you want a product that works and works very well, then with the current 30% off, it's gotta be worth a shout imo.


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## sm81 (May 14, 2011)

Is this 30% off total amount of bill or without postals?


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## nbray67 (Mar 22, 2012)

Straight from their site sm81 for posting prices - 30% off total amount - makes the 25ltr £27.99 delivered!

How much does delivery cost?

*Order over £24.99 and get FREE UK Postal Delivery Valid for a limited time only*

UK Postal Service - £2.99
Standard Parcel Service - £3.99
Express Next Day Service - £5.95
Standard Europe Parcel Service - £12.95
Standard International Parcel Service - £20.95


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## v1nn1e (Sep 23, 2014)

I'm just a hobbyist and wanted something that would extend my existing wash technique without too much faff, so rather than dragging the pressure washer out from the dark depths of the back of my shed, I use a hose-end sprayer, as I always used to do a water rinse before attacking with bucket and sponge.

I'm currently using ValetPro Ph Neutral snow foam in what is a relatively high concentration of 1:3 to get reasonable suds. From everything I can find on the ValetPro web site this shouldn't affect wax/sealant on the paint surface.

Wondered if anyone had experience of using any other products in one of these hose-end sprayers?

From what I've read all of these pre-wash/snow foam etc products are not necessarily all the same thing...?


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