# Anybody on Ketosis?



## vickky453

Ive been on the "ketosis" diet for a month now. Basically its a no carb diet with lots of meat, eggs and cheese. No fruit or veg ( some is allowed, like mushrooms and green salad).

Ive lost a stone in a month. I do exercise aswell, but before all I used to eat was bread, ( lots of bread)

ANybody else tried it?

http://lowcarbdiets.about.com/od/faq/f/whatisketosis.htm


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## Ross

No I don't believe in fad diets to be honest,I'd rather eat right and lose the weight slowly instead of dropping weight fast with the chance of putting it back on again.


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## cmillsjoe

i went on the lipotrim diet it was a tough one but weight dropped off


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## tomah

I've been in a 'state' of ketosis before, but never for more than a week. If I go on something as strict to shift my body into a state of ketosis, I usually have one 'anything goes' day. I've done it for several weeks on end with an 'off' day each week.

It definitely works, though. No diet I'm aware of will shift fat faster than going into a state of ketosis.


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## The Cueball

Ross said:


> No I don't believe in fad diets to be honest,I'd rather eat right and lose the weight slowly instead of dropping weight fast with the chance of putting it back on again.


The keto diet has been around since the 1920's and is a very good way of controlling epilepsy... it's nothing like a "fad diet".


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## Ross

Sorry just read what it is now I thought it was one of those silly diets.


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## vickky453

Ross said:


> No I don't believe in fad diets to be honest,I'd rather eat right and lose the weight slowly instead of dropping weight fast with the chance of putting it back on again.


I count eating only apples as a fad diet, a diet with scientific backing on the other hand Ill consider. This diet seems to work perfect for me as I love meat. Oddly, its put my blood pressure down , which is what doctors havent been able to do for me.


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## Ross

Sorry I jamp to a conclusion before getting my head around it,seems like a good idea but I am not keen on the no fruit.


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## vickky453

I unfortunately still eat fruit, absolutely love it and couldnt give it up


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## Ross

I am in the same boat,I don't eat much carbs anyway.


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## empsburna

vickky453 said:


> I unfortunately still eat fruit, absolutely love it and couldnt give it up


That will be the fructose causing that then lol.


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## empsburna

The Cueball said:


> The keto diet has been around since the 1920's and is a very good way of controlling epilepsy... it's nothing like a "fad diet".


Even earlier than that, since man first roamed the earth (literally!)


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## Bod42

^^^^^^

Exactly why I like these diets as they return us to how we would have eaten thousands of years ago. Just how we are designed to eat. High Protein, Medium Fat, Low Carbs, some fruit and veg.

The body has had thousands of years to evolve to the hunter gatherer diet but only a few hundred to evolve to the new high carb diet we have.

I would suggest a cheat day every 7 to 14 days as well.


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## Black Magic Detail

atkins diet is the same thing,only a quick fix


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## Junior Bear

I tried the cambridge diet about a year ago, it did work but it was easy to mess it up


My problem is I'm constantly hungry and never feel full, I drink lots during the day too


I feckin love food


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## Bod42

Junior Bear said:


> I tried the cambridge diet about a year ago, it did work but it was easy to mess it up
> 
> My problem is I'm constantly hungry and never feel full, I drink lots during the day too
> 
> I feckin love food


By Cambridge Diet you mean the diet that advisors you to have between 440-1500 calories per day :doublesho no wonder your hungry this is boardering on starvation. I diet on 3000 calories per day.

The high meat, high protein diets suppress your appetite and make you feel fuller for longer.


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## vickky453

Yeah, I feel like Im constantly full now, when I ate a diet of mainly carbs I always felt hungry.


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## empsburna

Bod42 said:


> By Cambridge Diet you mean the diet that advisors you to have between 440-1500 calories per day :doublesho no wonder your hungry this is boardering on starvation. I diet on 3000 calories per day.
> 
> The high meat, high protein diets suppress your appetite and make you feel fuller for longer.


I thought it would take at least ten more years for people (government, health advisors, food industry) to admit defeat and give up the "eat less, exercise more" and "calories in, calories out" notion they have been misadvising the majority of people with for decades.

The more you scratch the surface you see that fat isn't fattening and that low fat food is a recent invention of the past 30 years designed to maximise profits and keep us going back for more.

The cheaply made, high carb food that is packed full of sugar to stop it tasting like an old slipper has been forced on us - look at pictures of your parents/grandparents, I suspect that the fat one in the line up is the exception and not the rule.

I believe that diet and nutritional advice will change soon and insulin control will be the key to living better - not everyone is carb intolerant, but you will be if you keep eating 'healthy wholegrains" and "5 a day".


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## empsburna

vickky453 said:


> Yeah, I feel like Im constantly full now, when I ate a diet of mainly carbs I always felt hungry.


It is all to do with leptin, insulin and blood sugar levels.

Control the insulin production (through your diet) and leptin will do it's job and get your body back on track with the signals of when to stop eating and when you are actually hungry.


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## Derbyshire-stig

empsburna said:


> I thought it would take at least ten more years for people (government, health advisors, food industry) to admit defeat and give up the "eat less, exercise more" and "calories in, calories out" notion they have been misadvising the majority of people with for decades.
> 
> The more you scratch the surface you see that fat isn't fattening and that low fat food is a recent invention of the past 30 years designed to maximise profits and keep us going back for more.
> 
> The cheaply made, high carb food that is packed full of sugar to stop it tasting like an old slipper has been forced on us - look at pictures of your parents/grandparents, I suspect that the fat one in the line up is the exception and not the rule.
> 
> I believe that diet and nutritional advice will change soon and insulin control will be the key to living better - not everyone is carb intolerant, but you will be if you keep eating 'healthy wholegrains" and "5 a day".


Is this why so many are becoming intolerant to foods as they get older ?
the body cant take any more abuse as such ?


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## tomah

Derbyshire-stig said:


> Is this why so many are becoming intolerant to foods as they get older ?
> the body cant take any more abuse as such ?


If you mean things like type 2 diabetes which a lot of older people have, meaning they have to take insulin, a lot of cases can be reversed and certainly reduced by a keto diet, from what I understand.


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## Bod42

empsburna said:


> I thought it would take at least ten more years for people (government, health advisors, food industry) to admit defeat and give up the "eat less, exercise more" and "calories in, calories out" notion they have been misadvising the majority of people with for decades.
> 
> The more you scratch the surface you see that fat isn't fattening and that low fat food is a recent invention of the past 30 years designed to maximise profits and keep us going back for more.
> 
> The cheaply made, high carb food that is packed full of sugar to stop it tasting like an old slipper has been forced on us - look at pictures of your parents/grandparents, I suspect that the fat one in the line up is the exception and not the rule.
> 
> I believe that diet and nutritional advice will change soon and insulin control will be the key to living better - not everyone is carb intolerant, but you will be if you keep eating 'healthy wholegrains" and "5 a day".


I read an article by one of Charles Poliquin students that showsed the weight gain trend throughout the century. The average weight of people was on a steady rise and then the government released there low fat, low protein, high carbs diet suggestion and all food sarted becoming the same and the average increase per year took a massive increase literally the year this was announced.

I'm with you that I think they are about 10 years behind, I find it amazing when "research" hits the news that you read scientific studies years ago. For example that diet coke is worse for you than normal coke.

It amazes me what some people consider heathy and the advice doctors give sometimes.

My mum is a Nurse and we have argued for years about diet but she is slowly coming around to eating like cavemen and how were naturally designed to eat.


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## empsburna

Derbyshire-stig said:


> Is this why so many are becoming intolerant to foods as they get older ?
> the body cant take any more abuse as such ?


Yup, metabolic syndrome is being seen in people much, much younger than it should be.

Type 2 Diabetes was an old persons disease, it's what happened when you were in your late 50's. Now there are a lot more people in their early teens suffering from it.

Fat (not large or well developed) babies are the common place now too.


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## vickky453

Well it sounds like Im taking the right path with my diet!


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## empsburna

Bod42 said:


> It amazes me what some people consider heathy and the advice doctors give sometimes.


Me too. But then again that is all they have ever been told/known.

When you start looking at it a lot of it is peer pressure. Go against what the medical council and your peers say and you will be ridiculed and questioned - the norm needs to be broken and I think the internet is helping to do that - the amount of knowledge and information that can be shared now is amazing but less and less research will be (and is being) done because the food/pharmaceutical companies are cutting the funding and money they give to people because it is showing that the stuff they call food is nothing more than fodder.



Bod42 said:


> My mum is a Nurse and we have argued for years about diet but she is slowly coming around to eating like cavemen and how were naturally designed to eat.


What really gets on my nerves is that they tell us to eat a diet of food that cows eat to fatten them up.

Foie Gras anyone?

All this nonsense about going out and doing more exercise is rubbish too. All it does is make you hungry (as it should!). Trying to blame people for being greedy and gluttonous is ridiculous - the food industry would try to steer you and influence you - it is in the shareholders interest to get people to eat the cheap rubbish they buy for 2p and sell for £2.


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## empsburna

vickky453 said:


> Well it sounds like Im taking the right path with my diet!


People will think you are crazy (because they have seen you lose weight and more importantly the shape of your body changing) but if you have worked out that you have a carb tolerance problem and the way to lose and then stabilise your weight is by cutting the carbs then I would stick with it. Good luck!


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## Bod42

Do you realise the american government has admitted that they predict a 3rd of kids born after 2000 will be diabetic. ONE THIRD :doublesho:doublesho But have they changed their diet recommendations, no.

Suppose they are trying to solve the pension problem and save some money.

And I love how doctors dont admit thinks that are right in front of their face. I know its one person of millions but a guy I used to know at my gym eats high protein, medium fat, low carbs and everytime he visits the doctors they go on about how healthy he looks and how great his blood work is but then they lecture him on how bad his diet and life style is, how does that work.


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## tomah

empsburna said:


> Me too. But then again that is all they have ever been told/known.
> 
> When you start looking at it a lot of it is peer pressure. Go against what the medical council and your peers say and you will be ridiculed and questioned - the norm needs to be broken and I think the internet is helping to do that - the amount of knowledge and information that can be shared now is amazing but less and less research will be (and is being) done because the food/pharmaceutical companies are cutting the funding and money they give to people because it is showing that the stuff they call food is nothing more than fodder.


My wife is a registered dietitian, and what you say about peer pressure is right. She doesn't follow everything the BDA teach, but has learned to do her own studying on matters.

However, while the Internet is helpful, it's also full of misinformation, too. People are following diet fads like cults (raw food diet, paleo diet, etc) and they follow the advice given out by the 'experts' in these circles just as blindly as people follow the advice given by the NHS.



> All this nonsense about going out and doing more exercise is rubbish too. All it does is make you hungry (as it should!).


Are you saying people shouldn't exercise? A lot of people have sedentary employment, and it's critical that they do some form of regular exercise, no matter what their diet.


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## empsburna

tomah said:


> Are you saying people shouldn't exercise? A lot of people have sedentary employment, and it's critical that they do some form of regular exercise, no matter what their diet.


I should really have expanded on it a bit.

To lose weight I personally say don't exercise if that is your goal. All you do is make yourself hungry and your body less inclined to give up it's stores of fat (easy access energy deposits as I like to call them!) and there has been a lot of research done recently about if if you would like me to dig out some links? (I really should have kept a reading list  )

I do personally think that exercise to make you feel better is a great thing. It will help you physiologically and emotionally and if you want to make yourself strong then go and try to climb a tree, or carry a child on your shoulder. I think resistance exercise is fantastic. (and not for the whole 'lean muscle burns more calories' argument).

Human's aren't cut out to do this kind of physical work - we exist to chase an ox or climb a tree for some berries or dig a plant out of the ground.


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## empsburna

tomah said:


> My wife is a registered dietitian, and what you say about peer pressure is right. She doesn't follow everything the BDA teach, but has learned to do her own studying on matters.
> 
> However, while the Internet is helpful, it's also full of misinformation, too. People are following diet fads like cults (raw food diet, paleo diet, etc) and they follow the advice given out by the 'experts' in these circles just as blindly as people follow the advice given by the NHS.


People should be given ALL the information and the internet has helped that - what hope do we have if people like your wife can't try to do the best for people because she is being held back - no doubt the industry is sponsored by a large food or drug manufacturer!

Why doesn't she go it alone and offer diet and lifestyle advice for people knowing she can help them and make a difference?

Things would have been different if they had of looked at the advice of John Yudkin rather than Ansel Keys!


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## empsburna

Bod42 said:


> And I love how doctors dont admit thinks that are right in front of their face. I know its one person of millions but a guy I used to know at my gym eats high protein, medium fat, low carbs and everytime he visits the doctors they go on about how healthy he looks and how great his blood work is but then they lecture him on how bad his diet and life style is, how does that work.


Because the doctor doesn't hit the patient targets, they don't get money from the government if the patient isn't overweight, diabetic and a smoker with markers for heart disease and high blood pressure.

Salt, fat and cholesterol aren't the killers but we spend a lot of time and money trying to stop them!


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## tomah

empsburna said:


> I should really have expanded on it a bit.
> 
> To lose weight I personally say don't exercise if that is your goal. All you do is make yourself hungry and your body less inclined to give up it's stores of fat (easy access energy deposits as I like to call them!) and there has been a lot of research done recently about if if you would like me to dig out some links? (I really should have kept a reading list  )
> 
> I do personally think that exercise to make you feel better is a great thing. It will help you physiologically and emotionally and if you want to make yourself strong then go and try to climb a tree, or carry a child on your shoulder. I think resistance exercise is fantastic. (and not for the whole 'lean muscle burns more calories' argument).
> 
> Human's aren't cut out to do this kind of physical work - we exist to chase an ox or climb a tree for some berries or dig a plant out of the ground.


Yes, I agree to an extent. Long protracted cardio exercises (like jogging for 45 minutes) can bring a strong sense of need to 'refuel' making it poor for fat loss.

However, intense and short bursts like HIIT combined with resistance training, definitely improve fat loss. At least, that's what I've found. Even on a medium to high protein, medium to high fat, and minimal carb diet, I've found 15 minutes of fairly intense cardio and resistance training gives a boost to results.


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## Bod42

empsburna said:


> I should really have expanded on it a bit.
> 
> To lose weight I personally say don't exercise if that is your goal. All you do is make yourself hungry and your body less inclined to give up it's stores of fat (easy access energy deposits as I like to call them!) and there has been a lot of research done recently about if if you would like me to dig out some links? (I really should have kept a reading list  )
> 
> I do personally think that exercise to make you feel better is a great thing. It will help you physiologically and emotionally and if you want to make yourself strong then go and try to climb a tree, or carry a child on your shoulder. I think resistance exercise is fantastic. (and not for the whole 'lean muscle burns more calories' argument).
> 
> Human's aren't cut out to do this kind of physical work - we exist to chase an ox or climb a tree for some berries or dig a plant out of the ground.


This why I like strong man training, this is probably the closest a person who sits behind a desk for a job will get to training in our natural state. As you say we are designed to do manual labour, this does not include long distance anything. Keep your movements and diets as we were designed and you cant go to wrong.

I like to live by only eat it if it was around in cave man times.


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## tomah

Bod42 said:


> I like to live by only eat it if it was around in cave man times.


Out of interest, Bod, what are your thoughts on legumes?


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## empsburna

tomah said:


> My wife is a registered dietitian, and what you say about peer pressure is right. She doesn't follow everything the BDA teach, but has learned to do her own studying on matters.


I will have to double check, but I believe that the American equivalent body is supported and funded by Coca Cola and Kellogs - pedlars of cheap carbs.


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## empsburna

tomah said:


> Yes, I agree to an extent. Long protracted cardio exercises (like jogging for 45 minutes) can bring a strong sense of need to 'refuel' making it poor for fat loss.
> 
> However, intense and short bursts like HIIT combined with resistance training, definitely improve fat loss. At least, that's what I've found. Even on a medium to high protein, medium to high fat, and minimal carb diet, I've found 15 minutes of fairly intense cardio and resistance training gives a boost to results.


Totally agree and something I don't know much about but would love to learn more about. short bursts are just what we need. Few dead lifts and a bit of sprinting. Wonderful stuff.

Train like there is a tiger waiting to pounce and hit it with as much intensity as you can for a few minutes and you will feel good and get strong.


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## Bod42

tomah said:


> Out of interest, Bod, what are your thoughts on legumes?


I havent got that much experience with them but I know they are a reasonably good sourse of fibre and they are one of the least glycemic sources of carbohydrates, because the starch is either slowly absorbed.

But then I know they are used as Live stock feed in some places so is this because its good at putting on weight or because its easy and cheap to produce.


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## tomah

empsburna said:


> I will have to double check, but I believe that the American equivalent body is supported and funded by Coca Cola and Kellogs - pedlars of cheap carbs.


Well I've never studied the funding, but as a member of the BDA, my wife is sent Dietetics Today, and a fairly recent issue came in full of Kellogg's branding. I can't remember the article, but there was obviously a focus on breakfast, and by looking through the magazine it was clear that Kelloggs cereals should be considered as a healthy option!

It's disgusting, tbh. I can't think of anything Kellogg's make that could be considered as anything other than a food product bereft of proper nutrition.


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## tomah

Bod42 said:


> I havent got that much experience with them but I know they are a reasonably good sourse of fibre and they are one of the least glycemic sources of carbohydrates, because the starch is either slowly absorbed.
> 
> But then I know they are used as Live stock feed in some places so is this because its good at putting on weight or because its easy and cheap to produce.


I'm just asking because your caveman comments come across as quite 'paleo', and most of the paleo 'experts' I've read don't like legumes, which I can't understand since they're a product of the ground.


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## empsburna

tomah said:


> Well I've never studied the funding, but as a member of the BDA, my wife is sent Dietetics Today, and a fairly recent issue came in full of Kellogg's branding. I can't remember the article, but there was obviously a focus on breakfast, and by looking through the magazine it was clear that Kelloggs cereals should be considered as a healthy option!
> 
> It's disgusting, tbh. I can't think of anything Kellogg's make that could be considered as anything other than a food product bereft of proper nutrition.


Tragic.

They have to spray chemicals on the crap to 'fortify' it. Yuk.

If the people that are there to help can't help people then what hope have we got.

A slice of bacon (good quality, hold the chemical preservatives thanks!) a couple of boiled eggs and a handful of nuts FTW.


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## vickky453

empsburna said:


> Tragic.
> 
> They have to spray chemicals on the crap to 'fortify' it. Yuk.
> 
> If the people that are there to help can't help people then what hope have we got.
> 
> A slice of bacon (good quality, hold the chemical preservatives thanks!) a couple of boiled eggs and a handful of nuts FTW.


Bacon   that was breakfast this morning, two pieces bacon and two eggs scrambled


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## empsburna

tomah said:


> I'm just asking because your caveman comments come across as quite 'paleo', and most of the paleo 'experts' I've read don't like legumes, which I can't understand since they're a product of the ground.


The thing is with that, we now eat new potatoes grown in Egypt that are available all year round.

50 years ago you might have been able to get spuds out of the ground for a couple of months of the year and that was it. None of this pop to the supermarket and get a big back of cheap potatoes.


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## empsburna

vickky453 said:


> Bacon   that was breakfast this morning, two pieces bacon and two eggs scrambled


And I bet you haven't even fancied a diet coke and one of those low calorie cardboard bars that would make you even hungrier! 

The slippery slope of blood sugar highs and lows are over for you then


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## nick_mcuk

Ross said:


> No I don't believe in fad diets to be honest,I'd rather eat right and lose the weight slowly instead of dropping weight fast with the chance of putting it back on again.


Agreed these diets are all well and good but the minute to go back to a normal regime you will pile the weight back on.

Far better to retrain you ditery requirments into a sustainable way....you dont want to "diet" per-say you want to coach your eating habits to be healthy...also eat the right things at the right times of the day....eg. dinner shouldnt be carb heavy as all you are going to do is sit about and or sleep you wont burn the carbs off sleeping.

I personally limit my carb intake after about 3-4pm...also eat smaller portions but more at more regular intervals....so instead of having a big breakfast lunch and dinner have a small Breakfast, mid-morning snack small lunch mid afternoon snack and then dinner.


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## Bod42

tomah said:


> I'm just asking because your caveman comments come across as quite 'paleo', and most of the paleo 'experts' I've read don't like legumes, which I can't understand since they're a product of the ground.


when I think caveman I dont think "paleo" I mean nothing processed. Carbs are ok but the right carbs, the kind you would find as a hunter gathered if that makes sense.


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## vickky453

nick_mcuk said:


> Agreed these diets are all well and good but the minute to go back to a normal regime you will pile the weight back on.
> 
> Far better to retrain you ditery requirments into a sustainable way....you dont want to "diet" per-say you want to coach your eating habits to be healthy...also eat the right things at the right times of the day....eg. dinner shouldnt be carb heavy as all you are going to do is sit about and or sleep you wont burn the carbs off sleeping.
> 
> I personally limit my carb intake after about 3-4pm...also eat smaller portions but more at more regular intervals....so instead of having a big breakfast lunch and dinner have a small Breakfast, mid-morning snack small lunch mid afternoon snack and then dinner.


Again, the Ketosis Diet isnt a fad. Its a way of changing the way your body works so that fat is used for energy and therefore fat is one of the main contributers to your diet. Carbs are no longer needed( or in no great quantity). 
I have totally changed my dieting habits for the better : I no longer feel hungry and I have lost the wieght due to cutting carbs out completely.
A fad diet to me is the cabbage diet, or the apples diet. Ketosis is a process your body goes through.

And theres one way of not piling the weight back on; Dont go back to terrible eating habits


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## Bod42

empsburna said:


> Tragic.
> 
> They have to spray chemicals on the crap to 'fortify' it. Yuk.
> 
> If the people that are there to help can't help people then what hope have we got.
> 
> A slice of bacon (good quality, hold the chemical preservatives thanks!) a couple of boiled eggs and a handful of nuts FTW.


Glad to see the bacon comment. Was having this conversation with my mum over breakfast the other month, she orders Pancakes with lots of fruit as people see fruit and think healthy, I ordered Bacon, scrambled egg and wholemeal bread which is considered bad due to the amount of fat but I was trying to explain thats its in fact the total opposit and if people realised this people would be more healthy.


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## empsburna

I wonder what she used to eat 30/40 years ago for breakfast?


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## Ross

nick_mcuk said:


> Agreed these diets are all well and good but the minute to go back to a normal regime you will pile the weight back on.
> 
> Far better to retrain you ditery requirments into a sustainable way....you dont want to "diet" per-say you want to coach your eating habits to be healthy...also eat the right things at the right times of the day....eg. dinner shouldnt be carb heavy as all you are going to do is sit about and or sleep you wont burn the carbs off sleeping.
> 
> I personally limit my carb intake after about 3-4pm...also eat smaller portions but more at more regular intervals....so instead of having a big breakfast lunch and dinner have a small Breakfast, mid-morning snack small lunch mid afternoon snack and then dinner.


I took it easy in losing my 6+ stone exercise and eating right,sure it took 15 months but its not gone back on .


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## Spoony

I've not read this whole thread but I don't like the idea of ketosis, there was a particular diet fad going about where the aim was to get the body in this state, some days eating as little as 400 calories a day!

I just take it easy with carbs, try to get good lean protein and occasionally treat myself to something like a wee bar of chocolate. Seems to be working well. Only drinking water - ditching fizzy drinks is one of the single best steps imho.

I might be well OT with my input here but thought I'd contribute.


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## Bod42

Normally when I talk to people about diet and get them to eat better you actually increase their calories. I have never believed all calories are created equal, yes from a sciencetific point of view 1 calorie is the same as the next no matter the source but when its processed in your body this is a whole different story.

I would never suggest anyone go below 1500 calories and thats really low. Below that your body goes in to survival mode and will get rid of what ever it needs to survive and normally the first to go is muscle.


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## vickky453

Spoony said:


> I've not read this whole thread but I don't like the idea of ketosis, there was a particular diet fad going about where the aim was to get the body in this state, some days eating as little as 400 calories a day!
> 
> I just take it easy with carbs, try to get good lean protein and occasionally treat myself to something like a wee bar of chocolate. Seems to be working well. Only drinking water - ditching fizzy drinks is one of the single best steps imho.
> 
> I might be well OT with my input here but thought I'd contribute.


I suggest you read the thread then


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## Spoony

vickky453 said:


> I suggest you read the thread then


Answered the OPs question though so that's what counts.


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## vickky453

Spoony said:


> Answered the OPs question though so that's what counts.


Suppose you did answer my questions, but your comments of fad diet and 400 calories show youre trying to make a point without any evidence. I must eat way more than 400 calories ( I probably eat more than 2000) :lol:


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## Spoony

vickky453 said:


> Suppose you did answer my questions, but your comments of fad diet and 400 calories show youre trying to make a point without any evidence. I must eat way more than 400 calories ( I probably eat more than 2000) :lol:


I'm not trying to make a point at all, but our bodies are designed to run on a set amount of nutrients and calories over the course of a day. Taking up to a 6th less than this in my opinion is nuts and surely can't be good for your long term health.

I'm no dietician but since I've started eating well my results are clear, ok I've not lost all the weight I'd like but in terms of general health and fitness I've never felt better.


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## vickky453

Spoony said:


> I'm not trying to make a point at all, but our bodies are designed to run on a set amount of nutrients and calories over the course of a day. Taking up to a 6th less than this in my opinion is nuts and surely can't be good for your long term health.
> 
> I'm no dietician but since I've started eating well my results are clear, ok I've not lost all the weight I'd like but in terms of general health and fitness I've never felt better.


Cool mate, Its just the way you worded your first response sounded to me like you thought the KEtosis diet took in 400 calories ( which is wayy off).


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## Spoony

Nah not at all, I'm just a bit to the point with what's in my head sometimes lol. Blame the Scottish-ness lol.

From what I've heard/seen many people lose a lot of weight fast with a ketosis diet. The challenge is maintaining it on a regular diet.

If you give it a go good luck and keep us updated.


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## tomah

It's impossible to lose weight if you're taking in more energy than you're consuming.

The benefit of eating more protein and good fats, while restricting your carbs, is that your body feels satiated on much less.

For example, If I eat toast, or cereal in the morning, I'll need a snack before lunch. That's at least 200 calories, plus whatever I snack on. Furthermore, neither of those options are that good for me nutritional level.

Alternatively, a decent bowl or porridge for a man, with a bit of sugar for taste will probably be at least 200 calories, too. More if he doesn't want to snack before lunch.

However, I can eat one boiled egg (70 calories) with a couple of glasses of water at 8am and go 4-5 hours before eating anything else. I'll need 2-3 eggs (200 calories) if I scramble them, in order to not snack before lunch.

Either way, I'm better off with eggs than anything else. And as they're one of the most nutritionally complete foods, my body is get more out of it than it could from any other breakfast option.

I don't know why boiled eggs keep you going for longer, but they do. Boiled eggs are simply the best food for making you feel satiated on minimal calories. If you're trying to lose weight, they should be your breakfast of choice (without toast). 

And this is all without getting into the effect high carb foods have on your insulin levels, blood sugars, and all the technical mumbo jumbo that proves that eating more carbs messes with your body and restricts weight loss.

So, go and source some quality fresh free range eggs from your local area (check with an independent butcher) and boil your way to leanness :thumb:


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## vickky453

Im getting a bit bored of eggs atm!

And ill definatley be able to maintain this diet, its all the stuff I thought was bad for you when I was on a "normal" diet..


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## dubnut71

empsburna said:


> I thought it would take at least ten more years for people (government, health advisors, food industry) to admit defeat and give up the "eat less, exercise more" and "calories in, calories out" notion they have been misadvising the majority of people with for decades.
> 
> The more you scratch the surface you see that fat isn't fattening and that low fat food is a recent invention of the past 30 years designed to maximise profits and keep us going back for more.
> 
> The cheaply made, high carb food that is packed full of sugar to stop it tasting like an old slipper has been forced on us - look at pictures of your parents/grandparents, I suspect that the fat one in the line up is the exception and not the rule.
> 
> I believe that diet and nutritional advice will change soon and insulin control will be the key to living better - not everyone is carb intolerant, but you will be if you keep eating 'healthy wholegrains" and "5 a day".


If it was possible to "thanks"a post twice this would be the one. Nail, Head - Hit.

The 500 calorie deficit notion thats founded on the first rule of thermodynamics (wrongly) = total crap. Eat less move more? = total crap. 5 a day? = also total crap not founded on any scientific and robustly studied fact.
Just finished reading "why we get fat" by Gary Taubes and "the obesity epidemic" by Zoe Harcombe both highly recommend if you want to really understand the subject.


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## empsburna

dubnut71 said:


> If it was possible to "thanks"a post twice this would be the one. Nail, Head - Hit.
> 
> The 500 calorie deficit notion thats founded on the first rule of thermodynamics (wrongly) = total crap. Eat less move more? = total crap. 5 a day? = also total crap not founded on any scientific and robustly studied fact.
> Just finished reading "why we get fat" by Gary Taubes and "the obesity epidemic" by Zoe Harcombe both highly recommend if you want to really understand the subject.


Those two are really good books if you want your eyes opening!

I strongly suggest reading the following if you haven't already;

Diet Delusion by Gary Taubes (Hard and heavy going but worth the read)
Wheat Belly by William Davis
The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Living by Stephen Pinney & Jeff Volek
any of Dr John Briffa's books (escape the diet trap is good if you are looking to change your lifestyle)

...and the real killer book for me is "Pure, White and Deadly" by John Yudkin. (I have a scanned pdf version somewhere if anybody fancies a read as I am conscious the used paperback version is a couple of hundred quid so I read it and sold it back on!).

I can't remember which book it was in, but it says that by reading the book you will know more than your doctor does!


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## Tips

Ramadan starts in three weeks time - Yay 

No food or water of any kind from sunrise to sunset, that's 4am till 9pm daily for a lunar month.

Proper ketosis for the win :thumb:


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## Guest

Spoony said:


> I've not read this whole thread but I don't like the idea of ketosis, there was a particular diet fad going about where the aim was to get the body in this state, some days eating as little as 400 calories a day!
> 
> I just take it easy with carbs, try to get good lean protein and occasionally treat myself to something like a wee bar of chocolate. Seems to be working well. Only drinking water - ditching fizzy drinks is one of the single best steps imho.
> 
> I might be well OT with my input here but thought I'd contribute.


The point about being in Ketosis is that he body synthesises carbs from fat (gluconeogenesis). 
Carbs are not essential for life, because of this. Where as proteins and fats are as they provide sources of amino acids and essential fatty acids that can't be synthesised by the body.
This doesn't mean that you should stop eating fruit and veggies. They are excellent sources of vitamins and minerals. Also, for the majority of fruit and veggies, most of the carbs they contain is actually fibre and is not digested (which is also good).

However, it is my understanding that some carb intake is necessary if you are quite active active, as the body is unable to synthesise enough glucose to provide fuel for the muscles.
This is where cyclical diets come in that up carb intake on exercise days to account for this deficiency. There are also Paleo type diets which essentially restrict carb intake by using mostly fibrous sources.


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## Guest

The three part series, The Men Who Made Us Fat, is worth a watch. Final part this week, but it might still be available on iPlayer.
I'll try to dig up the uTube links.

Episode 1 covers how sugar and High Fructose Corn Syrup is being used in vast quantities in fast/convenience foods and the reasons why this happened.
Episode 2 covers how the big food businesses increased portion sizes, and hence our intake of sugar/hfcs, to increase their profits.

Watch these and you'll understand why any change to the government recommended diets is unlikely to change any time soon. Big business has far too much interest to allow this to happen. It's quite shocking.


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## Gruffs

Very informative thread guys.

What does the body synthesise for energy if the demand is outstripping the supply?


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## Guest

Gruffs said:


> Very informative thread guys.
> 
> What does the body synthesise for energy if the demand is outstripping the supply?


Itself, quite literally.

The fat reserves and muscles are the first to be broken down. Fat for the fatty acids, muscles for the amino acids, IIRC.


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## Gruffs

The reason i am asking is that my wife was in Ketosis whilst pregnant.

She had permanent morning sickness and was dehydrated as well. The demands of her baby and her reduction in intake lead to her being in Ketosis.

So, her body started to use her fat and muscles as energy?

Coupled with a kidney infection, it would explain how ill she was.

How close to the wind regarding energy demands are you? If you miss a meal for example, is it a big deal?


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## Tips

BareFacedGeek said:


> The three part series, *The Men Who Made Us Fat*, is worth a watch


Great program on BBC2 :thumb: - tucked away during the Euro 2012 tournament.

As well as the running three part series America's Serial Killer on CH4


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## empsburna

Gruffs said:


> The reason i am asking is that my wife was in Ketosis whilst pregnant.
> 
> She had permanent morning sickness and was dehydrated as well. The demands of her baby and her reduction in intake lead to her being in Ketosis.
> 
> So, her body started to use her fat and muscles as energy?
> 
> Coupled with a kidney infection, it would explain how ill she was.
> 
> How close to the wind regarding energy demands are you? If you miss a meal for example, is it a big deal?


Im not a doctor but it sounds like diabetic ketoacidosis rather than ketosis - specially if her intake of food was low because of the nausea and she was dehydrated - pretty common in women with severe morning sickness.

Ketosis is just the point where there is no glycogen stored in the cells to use as 'instant' energy.

She probably felt really, really ill.

I think that you are looking at it from the point of view that to lose weight you have to starve and go hungry - but if your goal is to lose weight then being hungry is the worst thing you can do.


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## empsburna

BareFacedGeek said:


> The point about being in Ketosis is that he body synthesises carbs from fat (gluconeogenesis).
> Carbs are not essential for life, because of this. Where as proteins and fats are as they provide sources of amino acids and essential fatty acids that can't be synthesised by the body.
> This doesn't mean that you should stop eating fruit and veggies. They are excellent sources of vitamins and minerals. Also, for the majority of fruit and veggies, most of the carbs they contain is actually fibre and is not digested (which is also good).
> 
> However, it is my understanding that some carb intake is necessary if you are quite active active, as the body is unable to synthesise enough glucose to provide fuel for the muscles.
> This is where cyclical diets come in that up carb intake on exercise days to account for this deficiency. There are also Paleo type diets which essentially restrict carb intake by using mostly fibrous sources.


You need things like spinach (leafy green veg) (and other stuff high in vitamin K) to help absorb fat.

Other fruit like berries are OK IMHO but anything else just has a bit too much fructose for your liver to handle (so it goes off into the bloodstream as tryglcerides) which is then locked up as fat.

The other problem with fructose is that the brain doesn't get the same signals to say you are full and to stop eating (leptin resistance).

High Fructose Corn Syrup is the work of the devil (and was invented and started to be widely used in the late 70's - just as the obesity epidemic started.

Cheaper than sugar and deadlier too.


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## Gruffs

She wasn't well at all. Fainting in pain with the Kidney. On a drip for a week.

The baby was and is fine. She just took from Mum what she needed.


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## Yeti Racing

empsburna said:


> ...and the real killer book for me is "Pure, White and Deadly" by John Yudkin. (I have a scanned pdf version somewhere if anybody fancies a read as I am conscious the used paperback version is a couple of hundred quid so I read it and sold it back on!).!


Whats the basis of this one? This whole thread is very interesting, keep going all!:thumb:


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## horico

dubnut71 said:


> If it was possible to "thanks"a post twice this would be the one. Nail, Head - Hit.
> 
> The 500 calorie deficit notion thats founded on the first rule of thermodynamics (wrongly) = total crap. Eat less move more? = total crap. 5 a day? = also total crap not founded on any scientific and robustly studied fact.
> Just finished reading "why we get fat" by Gary Taubes and "the obesity epidemic" by Zoe Harcombe both highly recommend if you want to really understand the subject.


For those considering Mr Taubes' effort, the below will be of interest.

http://markyoungtrainingsystems.com/2011/05/should-you-buy-why-we-get-fat/

http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.co.uk/2011/08/carbohydrate-hypothesis-of-obesity.html?m=1

In short, he's wrong.


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## anthonyh90

fellow ketoer here :wave:


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## Guest

I've been reading The Obesity Epidemic, by Zoe Harcombe, and she on numerous occasions mentions that insulin production is only increased when carbs are consumed. I have issue with this as it is just not true, as I have recently learned. Protein consumption also increases insulin levels. In fact, the body will start releasing insulin into the blood stream in anticipation of consuming a meal - any meal, no matter what its macro content is.

Of course, in term of excess glucose being stored, this probably makes little difference if on a ketogenic/low carb diet as there will not be large amounts of blood glucose circulating around the body anyway.

Edit to add that one thing that is becoming evident is that much that is written about human nutrition often also comes with an agenda attached to it.


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## empsburna

BareFacedGeek said:


> I've been reading The Obesity Epidemic, by Zoe Harcombe, and she on numerous occasions mentions that insulin production is only increased when carbs are consumed. I have issue with this as it is just not true, as I have recently learned. Protein consumption also increases insulin levels. In fact, the body will start releasing insulin into the blood stream in anticipation of consuming a meal - any meal, no matter what its macro content is.
> 
> Of course, in term of excess glucose being stored, this probably makes little difference if on a ketogenic/low carb diet as there will not be large amounts of blood glucose circulating around the body anyway.
> 
> Edit to add that one thing that is becoming evident is that much that is written about human nutrition often also comes with an agenda attached to it.


I think she means that insulin secretion (to the point of your body stopping burning fat) can only be triggered when carbohydrate is consumed. IE your body says "stop burning fat - something sweet coming - must be an emergency happening".


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## empsburna

Hour and a half but very interesting.


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## empsburna

anthonyh90 said:


> fellow ketoer here :wave:


How do you find it? What do you normally eat? Have you adopted a low carb lifestyle to lose weight or live better?


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## empsburna

horico said:


> For those considering Mr Taubes' effort, the below will be of interest.
> 
> http://markyoungtrainingsystems.com/2011/05/should-you-buy-why-we-get-fat/
> 
> http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.co.uk/2011/08/carbohydrate-hypothesis-of-obesity.html?m=1
> 
> In short, he's wrong.


Just had a read of those, are you a body builder?

Dieting/Living better seems to be a very polarised thing (much like religion, politics etc).

Do you think you are more tolerant to carbohydrates than other people?

Have you read much about the effects or carbohydrate restriction?

Why is he wrong


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## anthonyh90

empsburna said:


> How do you find it? What do you normally eat? Have you adopted a low carb lifestyle to lose weight or live better?


i find it ok tbh. its was hard at first adjusting to cutting out rice's and noodles which formed a large part of my diet, but i'm finding that i now cook a bit more rather than reaching for ready meals as most low carb options can't be store bought. its also been wierd switching from low fat to full fat options but i'm finding that i'm full off a lot less food and fuller for longer.

The main reason for it was to loose weight and to generally try to be healthier. the main thing i've found is my water consumption has increased massively. i think i'm drinking about 2-3 litres a day.


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## empsburna

anthonyh90 said:


> i find it ok tbh. its was hard at first adjusting to cutting out rice's and noodles which formed a large part of my diet, but i'm finding that i now cook a bit more rather than reaching for ready meals as most low carb options can't be store bought. its also been wierd switching from low fat to full fat options but i'm finding that i'm full off a lot less food and fuller for longer.
> 
> The main reason for it was to loose weight and to generally try to be healthier. the main thing i've found is my water consumption has increased massively. i think i'm drinking about 2-3 litres a day.


I hear a lot of people talk about feeling full for longer and not getting that hungry feeling that gnaws away at you.

Do you ignore breakfast and go straight for brunch/lunch?


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## anthonyh90

I generally try and get breakfast about 3 times a week although if I do have breakfast I'm not normally hungry till about 2 on the afternoon


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## horico

empsburna said:


> Just had a read of those, are you a body builder?
> 
> Dieting/Living better seems to be a very polarised thing (much like religion, politics etc).
> 
> Do you think you are more tolerant to carbohydrates than other people?
> 
> Have you read much about the effects or carbohydrate restriction?
> 
> Why is he wrong


If you read them through, you'd know why I said that. If his argument (simply) is that it's purely carbs that raise insulin levels, thus storage of fat and insulin sensetivity over time which reciprocates the above, I don't see how this is the sole reason for increasing obesity.

I go to the gym, yes, but I'm no bodybuilder. I just have a good bullsh*t detector from reading things over the years. I was once a bro-scientists best mate but as far as I can see, most of it is rubbish and in fact, the whole diet / losing weight / gym thing is essentially simpler than some make out.


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## horico

empsburna said:


> Hour and a half but very interesting.
> 
> Sugar: The Bitter Truth - YouTube


Or put it another way...

http://www.alanaragonblog.com/2010/01/29/the-bitter-truth-about-fructose-alarmism/


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## empsburna

horico said:


> Or put it another way...
> 
> http://www.alanaragonblog.com/2010/01/29/the-bitter-truth-about-fructose-alarmism/


That's a good read, thank you.


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## vickky453

anthonyh90 said:


> i find it ok tbh. its was hard at first adjusting to cutting out rice's and noodles which formed a large part of my diet, but i'm finding that i now cook a bit more rather than reaching for ready meals as most low carb options can't be store bought. its also been wierd switching from low fat to full fat options but i'm finding that i'm full off a lot less food and fuller for longer.
> 
> The main reason for it was to loose weight and to generally try to be healthier. the main thing i've found is my water consumption has increased massively. i think i'm drinking about 2-3 litres a day.


Im the same. I drink loads of water now, so much so that I had to stop because I kept getting up twice nightly for the toilet!
My main food staple was bread, and white bread at that. Keto is quite hard to start off because there isnt really anything you can pop in to tesco to buy for your lunch etc.


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## tomah

vickky453 said:


> Keto is quite hard to start off because there isnt really anything you can pop in to tesco to buy for your lunch etc.


No cooked chicken??


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## vickky453

yeah theres the deli chicken, but i hate chicken! forced myself to eat it a few times!


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## GR33N

One thing that wasn't mentioned, possibly because its blindingly obvious but I missed it, was whether fruit is considered bad for you? Surely theres fructose in there? and what about fruit juice/smoothies?

Brilliant thread though, I've found a PDF copy of Pure, White and Deadly that ill be reading over the next few days.


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## anthonyh90

GR33N said:


> One thing that wasn't mentioned, possibly because its blindingly obvious but I missed it, was whether fruit is considered bad for you? Surely theres fructose in there? and what about fruit juice/smoothies?
> 
> Brilliant thread though, I've found a PDF copy of Pure, White and Deadly that ill be reading over the next few days.


if you were trtying to stay in ketosis then fruit would be considered bad for you as it contains sugars which can stop ketone production.


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## anthonyh90

tomah said:


> No cooked chicken??


you can get cooked chicken but the main part of the diet is high fat, which chicken isn't. Plus it can be quite bland just eating chicken on its own.


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## empsburna

I don't think fruit is bad for you, but depending on your goals I would avoid most. Berries are OK - ask google for berries + dr + briffa - he can explain it better. 

Fruit juice and smoothies will contain a massive concentration of fructose, a hit you would do well to avoid depending on why you want to lower your carbohydrate intake. And if they are advertised on TV then I would deffo avoid them!

I will need to check but I beleive that intake is up around the 80g per day mark but people say to aim for around 20g per day (to keep your liver happy).

What are your goals?


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## GR33N

empsburna said:


> I don't think fruit is bad for you, but depending on your goals I would avoid most. Berries are OK - ask google for berries + dr + briffa - he can explain it better.
> 
> Fruit juice and smoothies will contain a massive concentration of fructose, a hit you would do well to avoid depending on why you want to lower your carbohydrate intake. And if they are advertised on TV then I would deffo avoid them!
> 
> I will need to check but I beleive that intake is up around the 80g per day mark but people say to aim for around 20g per day (to keep your liver happy).
> 
> What are your goals?


Fat loss at the minute, so reducing carbs is always helpful, however im also cycling a lot and recently started at the gym (i was weight lifting before however)


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## DrDax

I did bb'ing for around 20yrs, my uncle 50yrs and sends BBteams around the world for various comps. So I know a little about training 

Ketosis diet been around for years as someone already said, BB'ers use it to cut up. 
Big but, it's not healthy,. You can keep it up for a while but should always go back to a healthy diet. 
If you're going into ketosis, are you using urine dip sticks to establish you are actually in ketosis? If not then you're wasting precious time and effort. 
Important to always measure any change in diet. 

Fat loss (not weight loss), can easily be done on healthy diet. Just omitting carbs - you could be wasting muscle! 

Carbs not only refuel but help you burn fat and metabolise protein. 

Loads of articles on the this. I'll dig some out. 

Simple formula - unit = cals
Energy Required =( energy in from food– 500) = 500 deficit. 
Prompting body to source the requirement from fat. 
I vary this deficit from 500-1000cal per day. 
Various supplements can increase your metabolism, more efficient fat burning. 

Do you measure your body temp? Raising body temp burns more fat. 

Increasing your lean mass burns more cals at rest. 

I'm also a spinning instructor and train people for fitness, fat loss and diet. 
An average guy can burn up to 1000cals during 60spin session. I do 2-3hrs every day. 


Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk 2


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## GR33N

^ that was what i believed, which is why ive been eating brown rice, brown bread etc for more complex carbs


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## empsburna

DrDax said:


> Just omitting carbs - you could be wasting muscle!
> 
> Carbs not only refuel but help you burn fat and metabolise protein.


I can't find any evidence for this on the net (I have been searching!), do you have any links?


DrDax said:


> Loads of articles on the this. I'll dig some out.


I would love to read some. 


DrDax said:


> Simple formula - unit = cals
> Energy Required =( energy in from food- 500) = 500 deficit.
> Prompting body to source the requirement from fat.
> I vary this deficit from 500-1000cal per day.
> Various supplements can increase your metabolism, more efficient fat burning.


I am under the impression that if you eat less than your body needs then it won't readily give up stored energy (fat) but will try to compensate in other areas (make you sluggish etc instead). I've not seen any recent research or studies to back up the calorie deficit method for consistent weight loss.



DrDax said:


> I'm also a spinning instructor and train people for fitness, fat loss and diet.
> An average guy can burn up to 1000cals during 60spin session. I do 2-3hrs every day.


Would you say you are more tolerant to carbohydrates?


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## empsburna

GR33N said:


> ^ that was what i believed, which is why ive been eating brown rice, brown bread etc for more complex carbs


Complex carbs might be converted to to glucose slower but does't make them any better for you. I guess they are good, but not that good.


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## horico

Thinking you are tolerant of carbs or not is not necessarily the most accurate thing to base your choice of diet on. I know that if I have a large meal with carbs , like pizza or something, I will likely feel a little sleepy afterwards. 

I could assume this is an insulin response but I already know (as I have tested it) that my blood sugar is pretty steady even after a big carb rich meal so it leads me to think that it's not that and more of a psychological response to satiety. 

What im saying is your sensitivity to carbs can only be confirmed by means of both fasted blood glucose tests and ore and post meal tests. Prior to doing these, I could have assumed wrongly that carbs were solely responsible. Interestingly though, some protein powders destroy my energy levels so I avoid those, not that I know why they affect me so much. 

I still maintain, carbs are not bad, whatever type they are and calorie reduction will mean you lose weight over time.


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## horico

Ok, if you haven't seen these series of videos, have a look. They aren't all this long though.


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