# Stop extra tax on £40K cars



## Pinky (Feb 15, 2008)

I will never have £40 K to buy a new car unless I win lottery however

There is a petition to get the extra tax on cars over 40K removed, have a look at the attached petition and sing up,

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/241300


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## NeilG40 (Jan 1, 2009)

I'd be happy if it was just removed from £40k electric cars:thumb:


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## fatdazza (Dec 29, 2010)

Worth noting that the £40k trigger is the manufacturer's list price, not the price you pay for the car (and it includes the cost of optional extras


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## Andyblue (Jun 20, 2017)

fatdazza said:


> Worth noting that the £40k trigger is the manufacturer's list price, not the price you pay for the car (and it includes the cost of optional extras


Absolutely, a car can easily be specked up over the 40K, you buy it 6 / 12 months in at significant saving and you get hit with £450 road tax until it's 5 yr old.

A lot of people think (not necessarily on here) that it's got to be an expensive / premium motor - you can spec a golf over the limit...

Not sure why the 40k was chosen ??


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## fatdazza (Dec 29, 2010)

Andyblue said:


> Absolutely, a car can easily be specked up over the 40K, you buy it 6 / 12 months in at significant saving and you get hit with £450 road tax until it's 5 yr old.
> 
> A lot of people think (not necessarily on here) that it's got to be an expensive / premium motor - you can spec a golf over the limit...
> 
> Not sure why the 40k was chosen ??


To maximise the tax take, without upsetting the swing voters 

Well, that's my cynical view :lol:


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## andy__d (Jun 27, 2018)

as said £40k , worded like it has been for the Best gouge possible


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## andy__d (Jun 27, 2018)

NeilG40 said:


> I'd be happy if it was just removed from £40k electric cars:thumb:


id be happier if it Only applied to elec milkfloats


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## NeilG40 (Jan 1, 2009)

fatdazza said:


> Worth noting that the £40k trigger is the manufacturer's list price, not the price you pay for the car (and it includes the cost of optional extras


Also includes delivery fees


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## The Cueball (Feb 8, 2007)

I think it's a great thing... may just stop people buying overpriced tat in the vain hope of impressing instabook fans.

:thumb:


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## ollienoclue (Jan 30, 2017)

Cars are and probably always will be a complete waste of money. There should be a sliding scale of tax on cars, start at 20K, with more at 30, 40 and 50 and so on. Less Chelsea tractors has to be a good thing.

I have no sympathy for expensive road tax, you can avoid the tax by not buying the things in the first place.


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

ollienoclue said:


> Cars are and probably always will be a complete waste of money. There should be a sliding scale of tax on cars, start at 20K, with more at 30, 40 and 50 and so on. Less Chelsea tractors has to be a good thing.
> 
> I have no sympathy for expensive road tax, you can avoid the tax by not buying the things in the first place.


Technically VAT is already the sliding scale of tax relevant to the value of the car.

I think the older system of emission levels made more sense than a blanket £40k tax.

I did think the £40k cut off would make manufacturers price their cars better rather than the current high list prices and huge discounts.


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## Caledoniandream (Oct 9, 2009)

Britain already has one of the cheapest roadtax in Europe ( a shame it doesn’t get used for the roads) 
BMW 320d is in the Netherlands over €750 a year.
If you drive a 40k car are you really going to worry about £450 a year? 
Really ???

Its £37.50 a month, your depreciation is going to be more than 10 times that :lol:


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## -Stuart W- (Dec 28, 2007)

The Cueball said:


> I think it's a great thing... may just stop people buying overpriced tat in the vain hope of impressing instabook fans.
> 
> :thumb:


I agree but the desire for people to always have the latest and greatest leads to some great buys in the 5+ years performance car market :car:


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## Andyg_TSi (Sep 6, 2013)

To be frank, VED should be abolished altogether & put the cost on a litre of fuel.

Therefore, the more you drive & use the roads (and therefore the more fuel your vehicle consumes) the more tax is paid.

You could buy a car for £40k+ which has a huge V8, but only do 4000 miles per year, or buy an average family hatch for say 25K and drive 20k miles per year.....2 cars, one deemed “more pollutant” than the other under current rules, but on actual use the car charged less VED currently is more of a pollutant based on miles driven.

By loading the tax on fuel it would mean that it's fairer, as tax is paid as fuel is used & it isn't an arbitrary Tax as it is now.

That would be fairer IMHO than what's currently in place, pigs will fly if it happens lol


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## NeilG40 (Jan 1, 2009)

Andyg_TSi said:


> To be frank, VED should be abolished altogether & put the cost on a litre of fuel.


On fuels sold by the litre, sounds fair to me:lol:


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

Andyg_TSi said:


> To be frank, VED should be abolished altogether & put the cost on a litre of fuel.
> 
> Therefore, the more you drive & use the roads (and therefore the more fuel your vehicle consumes) the more tax is paid.
> 
> ...


Adding more tax to an already tax overloaded product will never go down well. People get upset when it goes up 2p per litre.

The average private car apparently does 8000 miles per year. I'd say 40mpg is about the average for modern cars meaning everyone is loosely using 900l of petrol per year.

If the government is wanting to take an extra £450 per year off people that'll see petrol increase by 50p per litre. People would go bananas even if their fuel bill only added up to what their fuel bill plus VED was previously.


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## Andyg_TSi (Sep 6, 2013)

NeilG40 said:


> On fuels sold by the litre, sounds fair to me:lol:


Fuel is sold on a pence per litre basis, not a price per gallon

When was the last time you drove up to a petrol station and the pump quoted a price per gallon?


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## NeilG40 (Jan 1, 2009)

Andyg_TSi said:


> Fuel is sold on a pence per litre basis, not a price per gallon
> 
> When was the last time you drove up to a petrol station and the pump quoted a price per gallon?


Great, so we're definitely excluding fuel sold by the kilo-Watt.


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## Mac- (Apr 9, 2019)

Caledoniandream said:


> Britain already has one of the cheapest roadtax in Europe ( a shame it doesn't get used for the roads)


And one of the highest fuel costs too. I'm currently in my villa in Cyprus (northern part) and it's £15 to fill our E60 5 Series with diesel.


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## macca666 (Mar 30, 2010)

-Stuart W- said:


> I agree but the desire for people to always have the latest and greatest leads to some great buys in the 5+ years performance car market :car:


Not sure if I've misread but the extra tax only lasts 5 years so if you were buying at age 5+ then you'd pay the cheaper tax.


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## -Stuart W- (Dec 28, 2007)

macca666 said:


> Not sure if I've misread but the extra tax only lasts 5 years so if you were buying at age 5+ then you'd pay the cheaper tax.


Point was we need people buying expensive cars to feed the performance used car market :thumb:

I have a 2017 £40k+ list car and the extra tax is annoying and I look forward to it coming to an end.


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## macca666 (Mar 30, 2010)

-Stuart W- said:


> Point was we need people buying expensive cars to feed the performance used car market :thumb:
> 
> I have a 2017 £40k+ list car and the extra tax is annoying and I look forward to it coming to an end.


Ah ok :thumb:

I'm on the higher bracket as well having bought a new Giulia earlier this year and although i don't like or agree with it it didnt and wouldn't impact my decision to buy and not convinced it will others either.

Although you don't like it either its a necessary evil unfortunately which we must abide by and it didn't stop you buying either so not convinced it will affect car sales as you think :thumb:


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## -Stuart W- (Dec 28, 2007)

Yeah it's not enough to change the purchase decision. It's essentially a form of wealth tax I guess


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## -Stuart W- (Dec 28, 2007)

Nice choice of car btw...really like the giulia


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## shycho (Sep 7, 2010)

Mac- said:


> And one of the highest fuel costs too. I'm currently in my villa in Cyprus (northern part) and it's £15 to fill our E60 5 Series with diesel.


But then you do have to replace your tires every 5 minutes when they melt in the heat, or are wrecked when the roads suddenly run out.

(Looking forward to heading back out end of September)


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

-Stuart W- said:


> I agree but the desire for people to always have the latest and greatest leads to some great buys in the 5+ years performance car market :car:


Taking it a bit off topic, but is there really that many used bargains out there now?

Looking at the used market anything remotely special these days holds value well.


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## -Stuart W- (Dec 28, 2007)

You're right there do seem to be fewer examples and prices seem to have risen e.g. e46 M3 type cars.

Better value seems to be in some of the bigger cars such as the S8, M6/650 - some of the project threads on here are persuasive and get me thinking about different options.

If values continue to hold then the higher purchase prices (used) will be offset by lower depreciation cost assuming you wish to sell at some point.

I'm currently looking at the W204 coupe C63 as it seems decent value compared to some of its peers :car:


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## ollienoclue (Jan 30, 2017)

I've no sympathy- smash new cars with VAT and an additional tax on the sliding scale.

Slapping tax on fuel will hit people on the lowest incomes who are running older cars because they can't escape it- people do the miles they do, not much you can do to avoid a lot of it.

I'd agree with road tolls if the money was ring-fenced and spent on the infrastructure but that is just me.

I'd slap additional taxes on huge TVs, £1000 coffee machines and similar, too. I'm all in favour of the UK going full Scandinavian. I'd pitch into business, too. Particularly huge/big business, about time they paid their dues. And limited companies, that's a lark that is.


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## Caledoniandream (Oct 9, 2009)

ollienoclue said:


> I've no sympathy- smash new cars with VAT and an additional tax on the sliding scale.
> 
> Slapping tax on fuel will hit people on the lowest incomes who are running older cars because they can't escape it- people do the miles they do, not much you can do to avoid a lot of it.
> 
> ...


Problem with tax on huge TV's is that you hit the lowest incomes :wall:


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## macca666 (Mar 30, 2010)

Caledoniandream said:


> Problem with tax on huge TV's is that you hit the lowest incomes :wall:


:lol::lol::lol:


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## should_do_more (Apr 30, 2008)

ollienoclue said:


> I've no sympathy- smash new cars with VAT and an additional tax on the sliding scale.
> 
> Slapping tax on fuel will hit people on the lowest incomes who are running older cars because they can't escape it- people do the miles they do, not much you can do to avoid a lot of it.
> 
> ...


The problem is someone has to buy the car new for you to have a second hand car.


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## AndyN01 (Feb 16, 2016)

IMHO the entire tax system is a shambles.

IIRC a few years ago HMRC slimmed down the "Tax Guide" - I think it is now just 17,000 pages long :argie:.

I'm in the put the tax on fuel camp. The more you drive the more you use the roads the more you pay. And it would apply to every source of "fuel" for whatever form of transport.

But I'd also scrap all the allowances/expenses/offsets etc. and all other business taxes such as Corporation Tax etc. and have just one business tax - a "Turnover tax" at say 2%. That's it. What goes through the till is taxed at 2%. What you do with it after that is up to you. And every company stands alone on it's own two feet. If the company makes a "loss" that's tuff. There's none of this "we've made a loss of £500M and we'll offset that against previous profits" type of adjustment. I'm sure some whizzo in the Treasury can work a spreadsheet to come up with the "correct" % so the Exchequer isn't out of pocket. I'm also sure a fair number of accountants will go into a cold sweat at the thought. .

The threshold for normal "Income tax" would be Statutory minimum wage x 40 hours/week x 48 weeks/year plus say 10% so the lowest paid keep all their earnings. Currently about £19K.

If the turnover is from selling in the UK you pay tax in the UK. I'm not bothered if your company is based on Vulcan - you have turnover in the UK so pay tax in the UK. And vice versa.

As some of you may have picked up my mantra is Keep It Simple and a 17,000 page guide certainly isn't that.

Andy.


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## Andy from Sandy (May 6, 2011)

The people that would have to take the decision to scrap VED of course look at the demographic and realise that voters in some cases have to use a car. As a vote loser this one has been around the block a few times.

My current car and approximate usage would require me to pay about 3p (2.75p) per litre extra to pay the same amount of tax. 8000 miles per annum. 11 miles per litre. £20 VED. £1.30 per litre.

If my car was 2017 or newer the VED would be £140. That would see me having to pay around 19p per litre more.

How much are you proposing diesel should go up?


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## FJ1000 (Jun 20, 2015)

AndyN01 said:


> IMHO the entire tax system is a shambles.
> 
> IIRC a few years ago HMRC slimmed down the "Tax Guide" - I think it is now just 17,000 pages long :argie:.
> 
> ...


I agree the tax system is too complicated - and there are lots of elements that don't make sense.

But a tax on turnover - payable in the country it's generated? Good thing you're not in charge! Bye bye every low margin business, and lots of multinational companies!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ollienoclue (Jan 30, 2017)

I don't think Andy is arguing for a tax on turnover itself, rather a tax on the profits from activities occurring within the UK. Big business is clearly avoiding a lot of tax liability by basing itself abroad. If you conduct business in the UK, then you pay tax on those activities, I think that is fair enough. Otherwise domestic business is sat in an unfair situation.

The tax system does need to be radically overhauled.


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## AndyN01 (Feb 16, 2016)

The fundamental for me is if it's "earned" in the UK it's taxed in the UK.

As I said I don't care if the company is based on Vulcan, Mars or is in some "tax haven"

What defines a "low margin" business?

Is the boss on Minimum Wage? Or just paying them? Or better still using zero hours contracts?

A colleague I worked with had a friend who boasted that they paid less than £100 a year in tax in total. We could never work out how the friend lived in a 500K home (in the Midlands, not London) and drove a new car costing nearly £80K (changed every couple of years) and yet apparently didn't earn much?

And as for Multinationals I have absolutely no sympathy for them whatsoever. It doesn't take much digging to reveal how much tax they don't pay. I wish we could all discuss and negotiate how much tax we fancy paying to HMRC. But tax avoidance is legal so it's changing the Law that is needed.

Andy.


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## FJ1000 (Jun 20, 2015)

ollienoclue said:


> I don't think Andy is arguing for a tax on turnover itself, rather a tax on the profits from activities occurring within the UK. Big business is clearly avoiding a lot of tax liability by basing itself abroad. If you conduct business in the UK, then you pay tax on those activities, I think that is fair enough. Otherwise domestic business is sat in an unfair situation.
> 
> The tax system does need to be radically overhauled.


His comment explicitly says and describes a tax on turnover rather than profit. Not a good idea, and would never get approval

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## The Cueball (Feb 8, 2007)

Turnover tax is a shocking stupid idea, probably why France has just approved it for certain types of business.. :lol:



> French senators gave their final approval yesterday to introduce a 3% tax on revenue generated in France by large internet firms, which could yield 500 million Euros. The tax will target around 30 companies, including US firms such as Google, Amazon and Facebook.
> 
> Such firms pay little tax in Europe by funnelling sales through countries with favourable tax regimes, such as Luxembourg and Ireland.


You need to remember that tax, in any form, is ultimately paid by people, not companies...

So yeah, let's increase tax... shareholders, customers, employees and the general public will all feel the brunt of it... great idea :wall::wall::wall:


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## AndyN01 (Feb 16, 2016)

Specifically what makes it such a bad idea?

The idea is that it doesn't increase tax, it simplifies it.

How straightforward would it be to just keep a record of what "went through the till" and pay a very small % on that figure. That's it. 

Business would then be like everyone else - how they choose to spend their money is entirely up to them. But there's no incentive to go on a spending spree as the end of the tax year approaches or to find the various (legal but questionably immoral) ways to avoid paying tax.

Nice level playing field for everyone regardless of whether you're a one man band or a multinational corporation.

Andy.


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## Andy from Sandy (May 6, 2011)

As a one man band I added up all my sales (A). I then added up all my outgoings (B).

I do a little sum A - B = Profit. Then compute tax payable.


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## AndyN01 (Feb 16, 2016)

How long does it take to work out which "outgoings" are allowable by HMRC?

And what if they disagree?

Many have been bankrupted over a dispute about what is and isn't an allowable outgoing. And I gather it's not a pleasant experience being incredibly intrusive.

If your tax bill was roughly the same without all that paperwork wouldn't that be easier?

Keep It Simple.

Andy.


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## should_do_more (Apr 30, 2008)

Back on topic....there’s zero interest in this poll it seems!


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## macca666 (Mar 30, 2010)

should_do_more said:


> Back on topic....there's zero interest in this poll it seems!


Although I dont agree with the extra tax I never signed the petition as i never sign these things as IMO there's no point.

IIRC there's never been a successful petition despite millions of people signing previous ones :wall:


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## SadlyDistracted (Jan 18, 2013)

-Stuart W- said:


> Point was we need people buying expensive cars to feed the performance used car market :thumb:
> 
> I have a 2017 £40k+ list car and the extra tax is annoying and I look forward to it coming to an end.


I have a just pre April 2017 £40+ car, :wave: and am hanging on to avoiding all that tax :thumb: :car:


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## SadlyDistracted (Jan 18, 2013)

macca666 said:


> IIRC there's never been a successful petition despite millions of people signing previous ones :wall:


Just another example of our listening government, they get voted in on the 'manifestos' then ignore them as they're in, lie and get away with out without any any form of redress or 'trade description' prosecutions 

Although there should be considerable additional tax on wall paper rolls when they're ~£25k a pop?


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## Blue Al (Sep 13, 2015)

Not even 1% of the numbers needed bothered to vote
I’d say that indicates the level of interest in overturning this tax


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## Shiny (Apr 23, 2007)

Andyg_TSi said:


> To be frank, VED should be abolished altogether & put the cost on a litre of fuel.


This, my ATR worked out circa £1 tax per mile last year.

Yet someone can do 40k miles and pay £20 tax a year because it has a hybrid battery providing a 10% power top up!


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## Andy from Sandy (May 6, 2011)

My 2015 car has a VED of £20 per year.

Why would I want it abolished in favour of paying more for fuel?

I would make a generalisation that those that are in favour of no VED and paying more for fuel are not the ones living in a rural location where a fair distance has to be covered to do the family shop.

Another generalisation is people are so taken in by paying monthly the manufacturers have been cleverly able to ratchet up the cost.


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## RS3 (Mar 5, 2018)

Andy from Sandy said:


> My 2015 car has a VED of £20 per year.
> 
> Why would I want it abolished in favour of paying more for fuel?
> 
> ...


Get your point and agree to an extent but its also not fair that those who love cars and want to own multiple have to pay tax on every car. I only do about 3000 miles in my garage queen and about double that in my daily but stung £500 - £600 every year.
The tax on fuel or a pay per mile system is the only fair way. Its the choice of individuals where they live, as is the choice of car and its levy, but I don't think any cars should be so cheap to tax at the expense of others. Road tax is exactly that, pays for the road infrastructure which low emission cars wear out the same as everyone else.


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## Mac- (Apr 9, 2019)

VED/tax hasn't paid for the roads since the 30's. 
I've got 3 cars at the minute, why should I pay tax in the ones that are sat in the drive?


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## Andy from Sandy (May 6, 2011)

We can't all move to Bradford just to lower our mileage!

I did make the same comment in another thread about other things like the tv license that is for the household or software companies that allow you to install a product on multiple machines and run one machine at a time.

I would gladly like the idea as I have two vehicles albeit with very different VED to only pay one fee.


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## GeeWhizRS (Nov 1, 2019)

It would make sense if they made the threshold the base price of the car, rather than finished price with options. I recall when I was adding the options to my business lease car, having front parking sensors (yes I know, but they were only peanuts!) nudged the total over the 40k and therefore liable for luxury car tax. (promptly removed I might add.) So does it make a car a 'luxury car' if you have front sensors?


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## SadlyDistracted (Jan 18, 2013)

Alternatively..
A touchy subject, those with multiples vehicles are complaining of a per unit tax, similarly for those with multiple homes, should they be excused taxes on the 2nd home? 

Admittedly our tax systems are a mess, e.g. why income tax and NI, why not just have the one income tax?


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## Andy from Sandy (May 6, 2011)

Once a tax has been introduced it never seems to go away no matter how unfair it was at the time and no matter who introduced it.

Having to pay a tax to take out an insurance policy has to be up there with any scam.


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## SadlyDistracted (Jan 18, 2013)

Andy from Sandy, you may not be old enough? The Married persons tax break was taken away, but then that was reducing tax payable, kind of the opposite of increasing taxes, unlike the despicable adding of tax/vat on home energy/heating fuel, :devil: and insurance as u mentioned, having to pay for nhs dental treatments was another kind of 'tax', having to pay for licence renewals/replacements, dropping passports from 25 years to 10 and hiking the costs, any others ?


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## President Swirl (Oct 23, 2011)

I'll never have half as much to spend on a car. But, why set this arbitrary figure? There's a worrying trend towards success and prosperity being punished. How soon before we all end up in state-approved 'conveyance bubbles' all made in the same factory?

"You will own nothing, and like it!"


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