# BMW again on Watchdog 2000hrs BBC1



## Exotica (Feb 27, 2006)

Wheels, thefts now faulty engines being reported.


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

Exotica said:


> Wheels, thefts now faulty engines being reported.


Doesn't say that on my planner.

I'd bet it's the 2.0 diesel engines.


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## Derekh929 (Aug 28, 2011)

Kerr said:


> Doesn't say that on my planner.
> 
> I'd bet it's the 2.0 diesel engines.


Yes that's the one seems all marks know need a little presurre to get things done:thumb:


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## Exotica (Feb 27, 2006)

The badly designed swirl flaps?


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## Exotica (Feb 27, 2006)

Kerr said:


> Doesn't say that on my planner.
> 
> I'd bet it's the 2.0 diesel engines.


On tonight's programme.


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## Exotica (Feb 27, 2006)

Ouch faulty timing chains now.


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## SteveTDCi (Feb 8, 2006)

Timing chain seems to be an issue with bmw's, if you want a BMW best play it safe and get a proper one with 6 cylinders.

Vag have issues with timing chains to on the 1.8 tfsi, the hydraulic tensioner drains of oil the tension goes in a split second and then the engine goes boom.


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

Exotica said:


> Ouch faulty timing chains now.


A known fault but I wouldn't say it was hugely common.

Plenty of other cars suffer premature timing chain and belt failures and don't end up on watchdog.

The headline was upto £10, 000 to repair and the worst case example they had was less than 50% of that amount.

They had a total of about 6 examples of failures.

How does that merit such a high profile feature on Watchdog?

The engine has more common faults than that.

I still don't think there is a reliable 4 pot diesel out there.


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## andystevens (Dec 12, 2011)

Exotica said:


> Wheels, thefts now faulty engines being reported.


And yet they recon they are the Ultimate Driving Machine. Allways been over rated IMO. Probably no more reliable (or desirable) than a Mondeo.


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## possul (Nov 14, 2008)

SteveTDCi said:


> Timing chain seems to be an issue with bmw's, if you want a BMW best play it safe and get a proper one with 6 cylinders.
> 
> Vag have issues with timing chains to on the 1.8 tfsi, the hydraulic tensioner drains of oil the tension goes in a split second and then the engine goes boom.


All the tsi engines are going the same way now.
We have had at least one on the 1.2/1.4 now within a couple of weeks


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## Ross (Apr 25, 2007)

What about that guy making a makeshift phone charger out of an old extension cable


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## possul (Nov 14, 2008)

Kerr said:


> I still don't think there is a reliable 4 pot diesel out there.


Vag PD

Thought I'd get there first.
Yes it's meant slightly sarcastic to!


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

andystevens said:


> And yet they recon they are the Ultimate Driving Machine. Allways been over rated IMO. Probably no more reliable (or desirable) than a Mondeo.


They are usually good handling cars in the class they are in. Certainly better drivers than their direct competition.

Many models aren't that reliable. The 2.0 diesel models are the worst offenders.

Ford diesels aren't any better though.

Warranty direct released their figures a couple of months ago about engine claims.

Rover were bottom by a country mile, Audi second last, Mini third last with BMW and VW not that much better but you can pin lots on the blame on certain engines.


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## possul (Nov 14, 2008)

Kerr said:


> They are usually good handling cars in the class they are in. Certainly better drivers than their direct competition.
> 
> Many models aren't that reliable. The 2.0 diesel models are the worst offenders.
> 
> ...


Was the rover there for engines?

Don't they use bmw engines?


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

possul said:


> Was the rover there for engines?
> 
> Don't they use bmw engines?


Certain models do have BMW engines.

Their repair claims were significantly more common than BMW though.


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## Trip tdi (Sep 3, 2008)

possul said:


> Vag PD
> 
> Thought I'd get there first.
> Yes it's meant slightly sarcastic to!


Honestly what are the issues with the VAG PD engines, been told they are decent engines from mechanics.


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## Ross (Apr 25, 2007)

Most Jap diesles are reliable,had a Toyota with a 2 liter 4 pot and it proved 100% reliable.


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## SteveTDCi (Feb 8, 2006)

Toyota diesels are far from reliable and the Honda diesel has an issue with drinking oil


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## J400uk (Jun 12, 2013)

possul said:


> All the tsi engines are going the same way now.
> We have had at least one on the 1.2/1.4 now within a couple of weeks


Anymore info on this? I've come across a few failures on the older twincharged 1.4 TSI but not the newer turbo-only 122PS nor the 1.2 TSI. Got 3 here so slightly worrying!


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## possul (Nov 14, 2008)

Trip tdi said:


> Honestly what are the issues with the VAG PD engines, been told they are decent engines from mechanics.


Some are don't get me wrong.
I've seen nackered camshaft and followers, con rods through the block.
The known injector and injector loom fault. Oil pump faults.
Seen oil pump chain go on a 1.4 pd lump (I did the repair)
There are good ones out there yes

VW are clever because they have a lot of parts made by outside firms and recover costs from them, not base engine faults though that's all VW!

In 1 year working at VW I've seen more engine faults than 4 years working at ford


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## Dannbodge (Sep 26, 2010)

My Vauxhall derv engine was awesome well izuzu engine lol


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## Ross (Apr 25, 2007)

SteveTDCi said:


> Toyota diesels are far from reliable and the Honda diesel has an issue with drinking oil


Never had trouble with mine but that never had a DPF on it.


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## possul (Nov 14, 2008)

J400uk said:


> Anymore info on this? I've come across a few failures on the older twincharged 1.4 TSI but not the newer turbo-only 122PS nor the 1.2 TSI. Got 3 here so slightly worrying!


The same, tensioner going slack and timing skips, some may only skip a tooth and get away with it.
Being fitted with modified parts but I haven't done one myself and probably won't as il be out the trade soon


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## possul (Nov 14, 2008)

Mazda have or had faults with the 2.2 diesel timing chains.
Stretch like mad. Was doing 3+ a day at one point


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## Blackroc (Dec 10, 2012)

The 2.0lt TDI engines in the VAG units from 2004 onwards suffered big issues with DPFs and fuel pumps. My old Golf 2.0GTDI died on the driveway - The AA new exactly what it was from my description, had taken 2 Passats to my local VW dealer that day with the same fuel pump problem. VW were out of stock at the time (2008) in the whole UK!

The N47 BMW engine is in the *16 *18 *20 123 sourced cars, with all suffering the timing chain issue. It can be identified WELL before destroying an engine as you can hear the chain running outside the car when you have the issue. Can be resolved for well under £1k at that point....

BMW refuse to help, and its affecting thousands of people, not one or two...Thats why it was petitioned on babyBMW and Bimmerforums to get it on Watchdog. Didn't get enough exposure though by the looks of it..


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## Exotica (Feb 27, 2006)

Kerr said:


> A known fault but I wouldn't say it was hugely common.
> 
> Plenty of other cars suffer premature timing chain and belt failures and don't end up on watchdog.
> 
> ...


Fair point but likely more out there. Question is it shouldn't fail and because it can destroy the engine it should be a accessable serviceable part like normal rubber belts.


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## Chrisbmw (Mar 6, 2013)

Blackroc said:


> The 2.0lt TDI engines in the VAG units from 2004 onwards suffered big issues with DPFs and fuel pumps. My old Golf 2.0GTDI died on the driveway - The AA new exactly what it was from my description, had taken 2 Passats to my local VW dealer that day with the same fuel pump problem. VW were out of stock at the time (2008) in the whole UK!
> 
> The N47 BMW engine is in the *16 *18 *20 123 sourced cars, with all suffering the timing chain issue. It can be identified WELL before destroying an engine as you can hear the chain running outside the car when you have the issue. Can be resolved for well under £1k at that point....
> 
> BMW refuse to help, and its affecting thousands of people, not one or two...Thats why it was petitioned on babyBMW and Bimmerforums to get it on Watchdog. Didn't get enough exposure though by the looks of it..


It happened me in jan of this year, chain snapped 2500 euro fix. 
It was ticking but kept putting it off!
My mechanic told me its as expensive to replace damaged chains than broken chains!

BMW Ireland didn't want to know when I contacted them!


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## telewebby (Apr 27, 2009)

SteveTDCi said:


> Toyota diesels are far from reliable and the Honda diesel has an issue with drinking oil


couldnt agree more about the toyota diesel but at least they put a package together to help out.

Vag pd 130, never missed a beat, sold my bora to a close friend and its now on 210k no issues

Vag 2.0 bkd diesel, oil pump issues that take the turbo out not fun

Alex


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## Derekh929 (Aug 28, 2011)

andystevens said:


> And yet they recon they are the Ultimate Driving Machine. Allways been over rated IMO. Probably no more reliable (or desirable) than a Mondeo.


 see you have not driven the new 3 series yet, I want be swapping it for another motor just yet, and maybe after you have driven a 1m , e92 M3 , new m5 ,M135i and even my F31 oil burner you might find out why they are a very good Driving Machine , never ultimate as always room to improve. Don't knock something till you have tried a few:thumb:


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## SteveTDCi (Feb 8, 2006)

We had a new 3 seres 116d estate as a hire car on Monday (by we I mean I booked it for someone else in the office) the do look really plain in basic spec though.


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## Blackroc (Dec 10, 2012)

Derekh929 said:


> see you have not driven the new 3 series yet, I want be swapping it for another motor just yet, and maybe after you have driven a 1m , e92 M3 , new m5 ,M135i and even my F31 oil burner you might find out why they are a very good Driving Machine , never ultimate as always room to improve. Don't knock something till you have tried a few:thumb:


You don't need to get to M cars to know they drive better than anything else.

However, 80% of people just want a car to get them from A to B so aren't that bothered.


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## SteveTDCi (Feb 8, 2006)

Blackroc said:


> You don't need to get to M cars to know they drive better than anything else.
> 
> However, 80% of people just want a car to get them from A to B so aren't that bothered.


And 80% have standards and see there is more to life than a BMW  I've driven a couple and can honestly say I really don't see what all the fuss is about. If you spend your life on a track then maybe but then fwd is just as capable, if I had the choce between a fast Audi Quattro and a BMW I'd take the Audi.


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## Ross (Apr 25, 2007)

My Spec b will give your "Quattro" a run for its money


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

SteveTDCi said:


> And 80% have standards and see there is more to life than a BMW  I've driven a couple and can honestly say I really don't see what all the fuss is about. If you spend your life on a track then maybe but then fwd is just as capable, if I had the choce between a fast Audi Quattro and a BMW I'd take the Audi.


They aren't built for the track.

The vast majority of people don't understand anything about cars. You could put them in FWD, RWD or 4wd and most will never work out what is what within their driving capacity.

Personally what I don't understand is why so many people buy BMWs with small engines. To me the engine is large proportion of what makes a car.

Sadly this isn't the case for many and BMW have now further diluted the brand for me by adding 4 wheel drive in this country due to the demand.

Sometimes I think people think we live in the North Pole.

When talking cars even in the height of summer, someone will always have to mention that all BMWs get stuck in the snow.

Even the FWD cars with huge tyres are awful in the snow and it bugs the life out of me how many people hang on to this negative ignoring the fact we rarely get snow, and if we do, snow tyres are the answer to all.

I like some Audis but I can't think of any of the mainstream ones that match up to BMW for driving pleasure. You'll also notice they often have to give the car significantly more power to achieve similar performance in many cases.

They are all too often a bit dull to drive for me.

I guess people look for completely different things, but most just simply don't understand and buy their car purely or perceptions and image.

Choice is everything.


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## CGRD (Jan 9, 2013)

I've owned two BMW diesels. I had a 120d for 3 years then followed by a 335d for 4 years. Never had a single fault with either ! Beautiful cars, in my opinion they are the ultimate machines! Now Landrover Discovery don't even get me started about that unreliable niggle ridden piece of £&@€¥ !!!!!


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## Exotica (Feb 27, 2006)

BMW response



BMW N47 engine.

BMW Group UK is committed to ensuring the best possible customer satisfaction and takes all customer concerns extremely seriously. 

Regarding concerns with the BMW N47 engine. In the case of unusual engine noise, or a more serious fault, there can be a wide variety of causes and further information is required before any conclusion can be reached. 

If you are a BMW owner and are concerned about your car please call BMW Group UK directly on 08000 93 56 56. Lines will be open on weekdays between 9am and 6pm.


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## Exotica (Feb 27, 2006)

Fail at 26k miles

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=1277895


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## The Cueball (Feb 8, 2007)

Ross said:


> My Spec b will give your "Quattro" a run for its money


:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

are you out "racing" the yummy mummies in their little A3's heading out shopping???

I hope Subaru are paying you for everytime you mention Spec B in a post BTW...  

You still loving it, had it a while now eh? 

:thumb:


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## Ross (Apr 25, 2007)

Yeah loving the reliability,rarity,sound,handing and general Q car quality.


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## The Cueball (Feb 8, 2007)

Ross said:


> Yeah loving the reliability,rarity,sound,handing and general Q car quality.


Everything a BMW isn't then....

:doublesho:doublesho:doublesho

:devil:


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## Derek Mc (Jun 27, 2006)

The engine referred to on Watchdog is the N47 fitted from 07 to 2011 with the potential fault causing parts NOT 09 as stated on the show.

The timing chain sprockets had allegedly sharp edges, this in turn affects the chain. this in turn wears out the "plastic" guides" these fail chain skips and BOOM!

It is a known TSB fault issue, has a number assigned etc, a bit like Nikasil back in the day, but is so far being totally resisted by BMW which is dreadful.
It seems to affect 2>3% of all production engines and it's your pot luck really. They can fail as low as 20K or can run forever depending on so many factors.
You do hear it however and there are loads of videos on the tube that tell what is going on so that you know in advance.
Apart from this the engine is a peach, no swirl flaps no CCV polution issue no EGR issue a true peach, however who the Heck designs an engine with the timing chain at the bloomin' rear!!!!!! Only a company who believe there will be NO maintenance issues, keep that fact in mind! it is NOT seen as a service item, so should outlast the engine.

Now the problem is, the 2.0 N47 is one of the largest volume engines made by BMW in it's history, so 2>3% is a LOT of engines possibly affected, they will continue to resist until sufficient public awareness makes them recant, probably.


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## Exotica (Feb 27, 2006)

Typical BMW. Swirl flaps issue not recognised, alloys cracking not recognised and now a weak part in the depths of the engine.


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## Ross (Apr 25, 2007)

Poor coustomer service considering how much BMW want per vehicle.


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

Exotica said:


> Typical BMW. Swirl flaps issue not recognised, alloys cracking not recognised and now a weak part in the depths of the engine.


They do recognise the alloy wheel problem.

If your wheels aren't buckled outwith the run out test, BMW do replace them in most instances.

There is always a chance of big wheels with small tyres failing. Again you see It more often on BMW as they sell more cars with big wheels than most other manufacturers.

The MV4 wheel was very poor though.

It is a risk owning any car and you have to weigh up the costs and potential costs too.

Personally I wouldn't run a modern BMW without a warranty.

I had my manufacturers warranty where I will admit I had a few claims. Actuators, rear windscreen as radio reception was poor, headlamp washers and bulkhead spot welds redone.

There was also a recall for the injectors.

Now I'm outwith my warranty, BMW allow me to extend it which costs £380 per year with BMW assist.

The 335i is cheaper for an insured warranty than all the other diesel models which can only be based on the cost of claims.

I guess you have to weigh it up if the owning of a certain car justfies the cost/risk involved.


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## Derekh929 (Aug 28, 2011)

Blackroc said:


> You don't need to get to M cars to know they drive better than anything else.
> 
> However, 80% of people just want a car to get them from A to B so aren't that bothered.


You make a very good point, and i think over the years the figure has crept up, i remember speaking to some BMW hiraki at Frankfurt motor show in 2007 and then they were doing surveys on introducing a front drive 1 series for the masses, and i think the next gen will see the 3 cylinder front drive BMW for sure , most buy for brand snobbery, but the balance are petrol heads that love there cars, but BMW went back the way for few years as Kerr said devaluing there brand but know with the M135i they are trying to get the message back out they have not forgot about the petrol heads one bit, and it is still about the over 1 million cars a year hallow that they are after and profit high in prestige sector, but BMW with all this M6 , M5 , M everything does effect the brand.
And i agree does not have to be an M Car to see they drive well, one of my best cars i had was in 1988 325i Sport light agile and mega fun, and sounded great, and as Kerr says how many days a year do we get snow ? none days that stopped my e90 and that is why i don't want to pay for extra fuel and tyres used with four wheel drive even though it pulls you through the bend or has more traction in the wet. You would have to be very fullish in the wet with the new 3 series to lose it with all the electronics on it as a lot better than e90, was just trying to make a point to the guy that was knocking something he has nit likely tried, just a bit like on here you get people on about products that they have not even tried to be able to comment on them


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## The Cueball (Feb 8, 2007)

I'm not sure it is "devaluing" any brand...

They seem to be doing very well at just making up new cars and new types and their fans will buy them all up...

I mean, there is the stooopid X6... then the 6 series coupe, now the saloon (sorry the "grand coupe") ... whats the difference between the 5, 6, 7 saloons?? 

Isn't the "grand coupe" just a saloon with a slopey roof??? 



but back to devaluing the brand... who for??? some "petrolheads" people that may have owned a BMW, like the idea of a BMW or wish they had one... and OK.. some "drivers"... :lol: 

you can only devalue a brand in your own eyes, and only then if you have, for whatever reason, held it in high regard... rightly or wrongly... 

:thumb:


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## Ross (Apr 25, 2007)

Gimmie an E34 M5 any day :thumb:


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## Blackroc (Dec 10, 2012)

The Cueball said:


> I'm not sure it is "devaluing" any brand...
> 
> They seem to be doing very well at just making up new cars and new types and their fans will buy them all up...
> 
> ...


Totally agree. There comes a point in your life when you make piece with whatever you drive, purely because it suits your life and lifestyle - regardless of brand or image.

FWIW - we are currently selling our M135 purely because we don't get the best out of it, and it's a bit wasted in our hands. It has a wonderful split personality, but the 'extreme side' we never get the chance to explore unfortunately.

We love the BMW brand, but are very happy to embrace whatever make and model we end up with.


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

The Cueball said:


> I'm not sure it is "devaluing" any brand...
> 
> They seem to be doing very well at just making up new cars and new types and their fans will buy them all up...
> 
> ...


BMW are altering their principles to suit what people demand. 4WD and quite possibly FWD altering the characteristics and balance of the car.

They have made quite a few mistakes of late making cars that people don't want.

The X6 springs to mind as you don't see many. The 5 series GT is the most guilty.

I've written in the past that BMW is just copying Audi these days.

They are filling up the range with models that morph into other models and fill holes that weren't really there.

Also having a sub brand below the M cars to align up with Audi and their S and RS models.

All just a marketing ploy to sell cars.

They are a business at the end of the day and have to make what people want.


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## The Cueball (Feb 8, 2007)

Just shy of 6,000 X6's on the road today.... not sure if that is what they were or were not expecting???

I don't have the original BMW blurb about how many they wanted to sell, in order to call it a "mistake"

:thumb:


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## bigbadjay (May 29, 2012)

Apparantly the 5GT does well in the US also i heard a 3GT is coming also soon


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## J400uk (Jun 12, 2013)

Exotica said:


> Fail at 26k miles
> 
> http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=1277895


To be fair that isn't the N47 as its a petrol, but a number of BMW engines from the past decade exhibit similar faults. Even the old E46 3-series with the N42 unit suffers.



bigbadjay said:


> Apparantly the 5GT does well in the US also i heard a 3GT is coming also soon


Hi from SEATCupra.net :thumb:. 3GT is out now, looks slightly nicer than the 5GT.


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## andystevens (Dec 12, 2011)

possul said:


> Was the rover there for engines?
> 
> Don't they use bmw engines?


Head Gasket on the K Series I would guess. That's the stipid thing about it....the K Series was an award winning engine & is actually excellent, it was just the cooling element of it leading to HGF so knocking the reputation for 6!


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## andystevens (Dec 12, 2011)

possul said:


> Was the rover there for engines?
> 
> Don't they use bmw engines?


Rover 75/MG ZT/Freelander 1 TD4 had the BMW engine fitted though downtuned by BMW lol.

I was involved in an MG Rover garage for 4 years & the Rover 75 & MG ZT did share a fair few parts with BMW like tailgate latches, fuel pumps etc & it was these BMW items that were the most unreliable.


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## addzSE (Feb 4, 2012)

At least Japanese makers recall their cars


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## andystevens (Dec 12, 2011)

I am aware on this thread that some folk love BMW but my oppinion is & this is my oppinion though I will be biased given the cars I have owned & do own that I despise BMW for what they did to our Motor industry though they wern't soley to blame I admit & I guess were clever in business but lacking in morals.
I allways used to like the cars back in the 80's & 90's when they were that bit special as in sporty, fast & luxurious. But now they are as common as Pigeons, allways tailgating, menacing other drivers, you can watch one come down the outside lane of a motorway & know exactly what they will do next (cut accross all 3 lanes & pull off at the exit with 2 feet to spare) - my brother-in-law & I proved this last week.
Then now they produce so many bland looking things & in some cases (X6) so damn ugly things in such a mass produced manor accross so many model areas they have lost their place in the sector they were once in. Then of course is the price & after sales service.


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## Exotica (Feb 27, 2006)

I made the switch to another German maker, BMW after sales is shocking when I had problems. Their excuses and making you feel like an idiot was the last straw.


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## Ross (Apr 25, 2007)

Most German car manufactures seem hugely overrated from what I have read online by owners.


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

addzSE said:


> At least Japanese makers recall their cars


If it's a safety deemed a safety issue Vosa enforce a recall.

Most of the big Japanese recalls are for faulty brakes and airbags etc. Not timing chain or mechanical failures.

What didn't help Toyota was they were killing the US car makers in their own yard. The US was desperate to shoot them down and went over the top trying to make more issues to devalue Toyota as much as possible.

It isn't satisfactory for BMW to have engines failing like they are.

As I've stated honestly many a time 1) it is a misconception that everyone assumes that all German cars are ultra reliable.

2) The BMW 2.0 diesel engines are poor. As are every other 4 pot diesel I've driven.

However if it wasn't BMW this would be a non-story and we wouldn't have page after page of cheap digs without people considering the bigger picture.


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

Ross said:


> Most German car manufactures seem hugely overrated from what I have read online by owners.


What often is the problem is when people buy what they expect to be top quality, any little imperfection will be complained about.

Often people who buy mainstream brands don't care about cars.

They don't notice/care about rattles, squeaks and cheap feeling cars.

Japanese cars are the most mechanically relaiable without a doubt. However most just leave you a bit cold as they are often lifeless and dull.

They are capable and efficient without any frills.

It's like Asda smart price food. The food is perfectly edible, but you know deep down you'd rather have the extra hassle, time and cost or going to M&S.


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## Ross (Apr 25, 2007)

Banging on about my Legacy again Subaru pushed the boat out and wanted to take on the likes of Audi,BMW with interior quality/fit ect and I feel they did a pretty good job. Ok probably a 30k BMW might be a little nicer inside but it won't be by much. Had it nearly two years,its been driven hard but has not put a foot wrong.Most reliable and best driving car I've ever owned.


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## andystevens (Dec 12, 2011)

Ross said:


> Most German car manufactures seem hugely overrated from what I have read online by owners.


I valet a lot of German cars & have heard many complaints over the years to be honest. I do however have 1 customer who has had many different German cars in the 11 years I have known him & had virtually no issues with any of them except on their A6 Avant Quatro that just stopped on the motorway & shut its'self down.....It was 4 years old by then though! They now don't have it & got a new Q5.


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

andystevens said:


> I valet a lot of German cars & have heard many complaints over the years to be honest. I do however have 1 customer who has had many different German cars in the 11 years I have known him & had virtually no issues with any of them except on their A6 Avant Quatro that just stopped on the motorway & shut its'self down.....It was 4 years old by then though! They now don't have it & got a new Q5.


I don't know anybody that has owned a car that hasn't had an issue of some kind regardless of what brand and where they are made.

Every single car I've owned has had a few issues that have had to be ironed out.

A lot of people like kidding themselves on and don't like to admit their car isn't all that great.

I don't know how often you get people telling you their current car is the greatest car in the world, however once they sell it their new car is better and they start admitting the old one wasn't that great.

For some reason people don't like to admit their issues while spending a lot of time pointing out the issues of others.


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

Ross said:


> Banging on about my Legacy again Subaru pushed the boat out and wanted to take on the likes of Audi,BMW with interior quality/fit ect and I feel they did a pretty good job. Ok probably a 30k BMW might be a little nicer inside but it won't be by much. Had it nearly two years,its been driven hard but has not put a foot wrong.Most reliable and best driving car I've ever owned.


I've only been in one and I wouldn't say it was that close at all. A quick scan at reviews and the magazines say so too.

If you're happy that's all that matters.

The world would be boring if everybody bought the obvious cars.


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## SteveTDCi (Feb 8, 2006)

Kerr said:


> I don't know anybody that has owned a car that hasn't had an issue of some kind regardless of what brand and where they are made.
> 
> Every single car I've owned has had a few issues that have had to be ironed out.
> 
> ...


Our ford puma was faultless in 10 years, all it cost us other than standard servicing was 1 set of discs and pads and 4 tyres everything else was original when we sold it, the Audi tt that replaced it ....... Something always breaks on it.


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## The Cueball (Feb 8, 2007)

Kerr said:


> I don't know anybody that has owned a car that hasn't had an issue of some kind regardless of what brand and where they are made.
> 
> Every single car I've owned has had a few issues that have had to be ironed out.
> 
> ...


I agree... it's one of the reasons I don't really like car, or make specific forums, they are usually so rose tinted (despite the hundreds of problem threads) that it makes me sick...

Perfect case in point... a guy over on the Zed forum wants to know a price for his high mileage, multi, multi owner small engined Zed, with a broken roof...

He's asking waaay over book and who wants a roadster without a working roof...

So I put my estimate in... and everyone come back "just ignore him", "idiot", "these cars are great", "easy fix of the roof" etc etc...

The guy, and forum think his broken car is worth more than what I paid for my newer, bigger engine, low owner, and perfectly WORKING car...

Just mental... :wall::wall::wall:

I've had the same thing on the Impreza forum - Hey guys, this car isn't that good... banned! :lol:

XKR forum - they thought it was "ok" that a plastic part failed and you have to pay upwards of £1.5k to fix it... rover 80s paint was OK too... because... "it's a jag"... 

Audi forum - they just ignore problems and fight about proper quattro and haldex ones, Audi's are perfect...... :lol:

Always the same, over and over again...

:thumb:


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

The Cueball said:


> I agree... it's one of the reasons I don't really like car, or make specific forums, they are usually so rose tinted (despite the hundreds of problem threads) that it makes me sick...
> 
> Perfect case in point... a guy over on the Zed forum wants to know a price for his high mileage, multi, multi owner small engined Zed, with a broken roof...
> 
> ...


I'm on E90 forum and it's completely different to every other I've been on.

Everyone wants to point out every last possible fault and it scares off potential buyers when they've asked buying advice.

I don't know how many times people have asked how much the car is worth and the advice given is 1) Find the cheapest on Autotrader and undercut it 2) whatever the dealer offers you as a trade in, sell it for peanuts more.

It is a totally bizarre situation, because as you say, normally single brand sites tend to be extremely biased.

There isn't a mutual appreciation between cars either.

Four cylinder drivers always fall out with six cylinder drivers.

325 drivers want to compete with 330 drivers, 335d drivers want to fight that their car is as good as the 335i and 335i drivers are always aiming at the M3.

There isn't much brand unity.

Many of the guys are really nice and clued up though.


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## andystevens (Dec 12, 2011)

Kerr said:


> I'm on E90 forum and it's completely different to every other I've been on.
> 
> Everyone wants to point out every last possible fault and it scares off potential buyers when they've asked buying advice.
> 
> ...


Very intersting reading!! especially regarding brand unity which on the MG Rover forums is generally the complete opposite.
In terms of reliability I have bought many new cars,,,,allways Austin, Rover or MG then in 2001 a new Freelander 1 GS then in 2009 a new Freelander 2HSE, Last year a Dynamic Lux Si4 Turbo petrol Evoque & 3 Months ago my new Pure Tech Evoque so those last 3 have cost a fair few £.
In terms of the MGR cars I have bought since 2002 I have had top models of them too (75Tourer Connoisseur SE Hiline, ZT260 SE-V8 & a ZT-T190SE in Monogram paint, trim etc) yet in 2006 I bought the cheapest new car since my MG Metro Turbo in 1987 & that was my 2006 (2005 Model year) Rover 25GSi & that in terms of value for money is the best & most reliable car I have ever had. Other than audio & trim enhancements the only money I have spent on that car is routine servicing / MOT etc & this year for the 1st time it had an advisory for a slightly worm N/S Lower ball joint though the day before the MOT I hit a pothole  The only other thing that needs doing is an Aircon service but that may just be out of gas & I guess is classed as routine anyway. Yet folk Rubbish the Rover brand!


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## Paintmaster1982 (Oct 23, 2007)

The problem I find is that when ever you search the internet about problems with any car is that you get a concentration of problems on that make. When I worked for mazda and mitsubishi we had typical problems enough to make you think to never buy that make. But when you think about it, its a very small percentage of cars out of the actual number built by the car manufacture.

If you read on the internet or forums about problems with that car you will be put off from buying every make. But you have to remember not every car ever made will have problems.

Beside its all nuts and bolts and anything can be fixed, right?


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## Paintmaster1982 (Oct 23, 2007)

Kerr said:


> I've only been in one and I wouldn't say it was that close at all. A quick scan at reviews and the magazines say so too.
> 
> If you're happy that's all that matters.
> 
> The world would be boring if everybody bought the obvious cars.


I never even take reviews that lightly either. Whats right for one isn't right for the other. It's like Clarkson and the other muppets on Top Gear.."this car understeers big time..,,its probably the worst front wheel drive car ever" and then they show you clarkson putting a saab in full lock and just booting it to make it understeer and shouting about it. what a bell smith.


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## bigbadjay (May 29, 2012)

J400uk said:


> Hi from SEATCupra.net :thumb:. 3GT is out now, looks slightly nicer than the 5GT.


*does secret handshake*


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## horico (Jul 17, 2010)

andystevens said:


> Head Gasket on the K Series I would guess. That's the stipid thing about it....the K Series was an award winning engine & is actually excellent, it was just the cooling element of it leading to HGF so knocking the reputation for 6!


Which if you read the rumours, it was BMW that specced lower quality dowels for the head gasket thus leading to increased failures and a completely ruined brand, when it was already struggling. Just as BMW cherry picked the new mini designs etc.

Change the HG on a Rover/MG with steel dowels and better gasket and magically the issues disappear.

How many failed when ran in the Elise? Wasn't that originally a K?


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

horico said:


> Which if you read the rumours, it was BMW that specced lower quality dowels for the head gasket thus leading to increased failures and a completely ruined brand, when it was already struggling. Just as BMW cherry picked the new mini designs etc.
> 
> Change the HG on a Rover/MG with steel dowels and better gasket and magically the issues disappear.
> 
> How many failed when ran in the Elise? Wasn't that originally a K?


Loads of Elises had gasket failures with the Rover engine.


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## andystevens (Dec 12, 2011)

Kerr said:


> Loads of Elises had gasket failures with the Rover engine.


Yes they did along with Landrover who by 2000 were still owned by BMW so they had to deal with HGF on those.

R.E another post about 4 down from here about Top Gear. They did a feature in the Time Magazine 3 weeks ago saying the MG6 was so bad that Clarkson had to get out & push.
I know a few folk in the MG World & an MG6 was loaned to the editor of that magazine & when he returned the car was asked if their were any issues. He said no. I understand that MG are now seeking further action.
Also TG did a feature on the Nissan electric car with similar stories about it running out of power after the 18 mile trip, unfortunately for TG they didn't realise that Nissan had fitted a tracker!


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## SKY (Sep 25, 2011)

Exotica said:


> Typical BMW. Swirl flaps issue not recognised, alloys cracking not recognised and now a weak part in the depths of the engine.


You forgot the security flaw that allowed keys to be coded via a laptop and the car nicked within a few minutes.


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## Exotica (Feb 27, 2006)

SKY said:


> You forgot the security flaw that allowed keys to be coded via a laptop and the car nicked within a few minutes.


Yes you're right.


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## SteveTDCi (Feb 8, 2006)

To be fair the xu engine in the 206/saxo is also well known for having hg failures, the k series doesn't have the best reputation but neither do bmw's 4 pot diesels, or the 1.6 petrol they produce.


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## Rundie (Oct 2, 2007)

I own a BMW and a Toyota, both are very well made and quality motors but the amount of recalls and issues lately isn't doing either of them any favours.


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## Blackroc (Dec 10, 2012)

SKY said:


> You forgot the security flaw that allowed keys to be coded via a laptop and the car nicked within a few minutes.


Whilst this true, BMW are sorting this for customers quickly.

Did anyone see 'False Britain' this week on BBC1 this week? A gang of professional car thieves in London stole nearly 2 million pounds worth of cars (Range Rovers / Bentleys / Audis etc..) last year using the same technique as on the BMWs. It's an issue for all manufacturers, not just BMW


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

SKY said:


> You forgot the security flaw that allowed keys to be coded via a laptop and the car nicked within a few minutes.


You can take your car to a dealer and get an update to stop this happening.

They also weren't simply reprogrammed by a laptop. If you had the right gear it was easy once you had gained access to the OBD port inside the car, but the right gear was very expensive at £5000.

Other brands are far more commonly stolen and far easier too. Audi for example.

Watchdog could pick fault with any car brand if they wanted.

If they choose Kia there wouldn't be much interest and this thread wouldn't have been made.

Since it's BMW a lot of people want to put cheap digs in and post Internet stories.


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## Rundie (Oct 2, 2007)

Blackroc said:


> Whilst this true, BMW are sorting this for customers quickly.
> 
> Did anyone see 'False Britain' this week on BBC1 this week? A gang of professional car thieves in London stole nearly 2 million pounds worth of cars (Range Rovers / Bentleys / Audis etc..) last year using the same technique as on the BMWs. It's an issue for all manufacturers, not just BMW


My X5 has had the security update done, I suppose the handy part of Watchdog highlighting the BMW security flaw meant that they sorted the problem where as owners of other makes are still at risk :thumb:


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## knightstemplar (Jun 18, 2010)

My 3 series had the security update done 3 weeks ago, had to wait 45 mins but the coffee and biscuits helped:thumb:


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## DMH-01 (Mar 29, 2011)

Kerr said:


> They also weren't simply reprogrammed by a laptop. If you had the right gear it was easy once you had gained access to the OBD port inside the car, but the right gear was very expensive at £5000.


The equipment required didn't cost anywhere near £5000.


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

DMH-01 said:


> The equipment required didn't cost anywhere near £5000.


There was suggestions that cheap ones did work. I'm lead to believe they didn't.

This is what people were using.

http://www.edilock-bg.com/en/bmw.htm


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## SteveTDCi (Feb 8, 2006)

I thought they used an angle grinder and went through the wing ?


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

SteveTDCi said:


> I thought they used an angle grinder and went through the wing ?


They used the OBD port to reprogramme a new key.

The OBD port could actually be reached without triggering the alarm. The sensors didn't detect movement that close to the door.

You still had to get the window down in the first place.

Quite a few guys simply moved the OBD port out of reach.

There wasn't actually that many cars stolen this way. It was hugely overhyped on the internet.

A few were captured on video which made it more dramatic. I think all the thefts happened in the same areas of England. The kind of places you wouldn't want to be.

At the same time we were hearing about this epidemic about BMWs being stolen, most guys including myself, were seeing significant drops in their insurance premium.


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## Dave KG (Feb 23, 2006)

Kerr said:


> I don't know anybody that has owned a car that hasn't had an issue of some kind regardless of what brand and where they are made.
> 
> Every single car I've owned has had a few issues that have had to be ironed out.
> 
> ...


Indeed, you could take pretty much any model of car and find someone that has had faults, some major, with it.

Sometimes, it only takes a subtle little change to an engine from a manufacturer to let all hell loose as well - the Volvo D5 is a prime example of that. The 185bhp version fitted to Phase 3 V70, S80 cars has a modified aux belt tensioner as part of a rework of ancillaries to fit into the newer chassis - result was this tensioner prone to failure, aux belt slipping and tangling with the timing belt, jamming it and writing off the engine. Fourth recall for this fault at the moment I believe! Which is why I am happily sitting with my older version in the Phase 2 chassis that does not share this fault. Let's face it, you could take pretty much any manufacturer and find an issue down the line somewhere!

FWIW, in terms of finding a reliable diesel engine, I'm pretty happy with the service I've had from my Volvo D5 - 170k and only one big repair which was the clutch replacement when the slave cylinder seal weaped.


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