# Issues with 3M Extra Fine Compound, help please



## the-pm (Apr 11, 2008)

I am new to rotary polishing and have purchased the following:


Silverline rotary buffer
Elite Coolfoam Orange cutting pads
Elite Coolfoam Red finishing pads
3m Perfect-It III Fast Cut Plus (50417)
3m Perfect-It III Extra Fine Compound (80349)
3m Perfect-It III Ultrafina SE (50383)

I then bought a scrap bonnet (dark metallic green from a Subaru Impreza I think) which I cleaned up and clayed so that I could do some trials.

I used the orange pad with Fast Cut and it was ok, left a few marks as you would expect but could control the machine with out to much issue (produced quite a bit of dust if I remember, does this sound right).

I then used an orange pad with Extra Fine and it was a nightmare I had difficulty controlling the buffer as it was hopping all over the place, the panel got quite hot (I sprayed some water on after an attempt and steam came off!). I was kind of expecting the polish to go clear to denote that it was ready to be buffed off but it does not and just seems to go sticky and is very difficult to remove with a cloth.

After a few failed attempts and the panel looking a real mess after all the grabbing and hopping I tried again (after cleaning with IPA) but this time with a red pad, may be a little better but really still a nightmare.

I then tried a Red pad with Ultrafina and this was fine and really easy to control.

Now I expected the Extra Fine to be the one I would use all the time but at this point it is only good for the bin, more than happy to accept it is me as I am new to it but as I got on ok (if not brilliantly) with both Fast Cut and Ultrafina I kind of think that I most have some of the techniques?

Advice please, all is welcome, thanks in advance, Philip


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## Dan J (Jun 18, 2008)

did you put the polish straight onto a dry pad? if yes then thats partly why your pad was jumping.

also what speed settings were you using?


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## Ultra (Feb 25, 2006)

You would be better practicing a panel with hard clear coat and the panel should never get hot enough to produce steam :lol:
No water is needed with modern polishes, are you cleaning your pads, a clogged up pad will hop, use a stiff tooth brush to remove excess polish, i could go on for days, a level pad is less likely to hop, just keep on practicing it will soon fall into place. one more thing why did'nt you buy 3m pads


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## Mirror Finish Details (Aug 21, 2008)

Extra Fine is a strange polish. Tends to dry quickly.

Personally I wet all my pads and spin them on the machine till just damp, gives you extra lube. I then re wash and spin after every panel.

If you find it jumping still put a few small blobs of UltraFIna on the pad, as that is quite oily.

I use 3M pads but all pads should work the same.

Steam off a panel is too much pressure and speed.......you bever want a panel to get much hotter than on enot being worked on , only ever so slightly warmer.

Perhaps try a wool pad as well as they run cooler.


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## the-pm (Apr 11, 2008)

No, I ran the pad under the tap first, than squashed it, then span it on the highest setting on the buffer to get rid off any excess water. Out of interest should you always wet your pads before using it, I though you could prime them with more polish the first time, is this not the case?

I spread the polish on the lowest speed for a few seconds and then increased the speed to 2 (about 1,500 rpm I think) for the correction but it was not long (a couple of quick passes) before it became really sticky and as I say it did not go clear (and the finger swipe test left a smear) I expected it to do so I imagine I was running it for two long. However I tried running it for a short period of time and it was just as sticky, hence why I thought I should buff for longer. Half way through I misted some water on it and this improved it but again soon back to the same issue, it has got me confused this polish!


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## Black Magic Detail (Aug 17, 2010)

jap sticky paint ,the last honda i done was the same, pad hopping and sqealing ,use a da not as much heat buildup and you can work the polish longer


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## the-pm (Apr 11, 2008)

dennis said:


> You would be better practicing a panel with hard clear coat and the panel should never get hot enough to produce steam :lol:
> No water is needed with modern polishes, are you cleaning your pads, a clogged up pad will hop, use a stiff tooth brush to remove excess polish, i could go on for days, a level pad is less likely to hop, just keep on practicing it will soon fall into place. one more thing why did'nt you buy 3m pads


Thanks, although the only other panel I have is on my car and I am not practising on my car!

Erm, I did not clean the pads with a brush but I did not think they looked clogged, of course I have no frame of reference but I could still see quite a bit or orange, however a good idea to try.

I bought the Elite pads because it came free with the polisher and they were a little cheaper (I am a Yorkshire man you know)!


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## the-pm (Apr 11, 2008)

Mirror Finish said:


> Extra Fine is a strange polish. Tends to dry quickly.
> 
> Personally I wet all my pads and spin them on the machine till just damp, gives you extra lube. I then re wash and spin after every panel.
> 
> ...


Adding a bit of Ultra is a good idea, I don't think I am adding any extra pressure just the weight of a machine, could this be too much, I suppose I could put the bonnet on its edge so that it is vertical instead of horizontal to see if it makes any difference.


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## Mirror Finish Details (Aug 21, 2008)

Sorry did not see the car.

You should be able to correct a Scooby with Ultrafina on a blue 3M pad, or a yellow pad for a bit of extra bite, then refine wit the blue pad.

Think you went a bit aggressive.

You don't need to faff about with a brush to clean the pad, just wash it in some car shampoo, rinse, spin on machine and your good to go.


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## the-pm (Apr 11, 2008)

bleek said:


> jap sticky paint ,the last honda i done was the same, pad hopping and sqealing ,use a da not as much heat buildup and you can work the polish longer


Good to hear it is not just me, using a DA would be fine but just bought a rotary so kind of want to make this work.


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## 123quackers (Jan 29, 2009)

the-pm said:


> Good to hear it is not just me, using a DA would be fine but just bought a rotary so kind of want to make this work.


Try a different panel using same set up, could be paint finish and the orange cutting pad... I had an issue with LC cutting pad doing the same, but 3m green pad didn't trial an error testing what gives the best results.

Always start with least aggresive combo first and work your way up has always worked well for me.:thumb:


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## the-pm (Apr 11, 2008)

Mirror Finish said:


> Sorry did not see the car.
> 
> You should be able to correct a Scooby with Ultrafina on a blue 3M pad, or a yellow pad for a bit of extra bite, then refine wit the blue pad.
> 
> ...





123quackers said:


> Try a different panel using same set up, could be paint finish and the orange cutting pad... I had an issue with LC cutting pad doing the same, but 3m green pad didn't trial an error testing what gives the best results.
> 
> Always start with least aggresive combo first and work your way up has always worked well for me.:thumb:


Thanks gents, I think the recurring idea is that on jap paint this tends to be the issue and I should stick with my red pad and Ultrafina. Be honest it was my first attempt and I did not want to achieve anything but just to try a few things to get a feel for things. Next weekend I will try and achieve a decent level of correction just using Ultrafina and see how I go.


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## Magic Detail (Jul 25, 2010)

You'll get it working with more practice mate. I use the 3M polishes and to answer one of your questions re: FC+ creating quite an amount of dust - yes it does. I personally don't see much benefit of adding a dash of Ultrafina when using Extra-Fine, as you just end up using more product than neccessary. If you're after a specific pad lube to use on Jap paint, you should take a look at the Gloss-it EVP pad prime :thumb: That said, I have found that the Extra-Fine is more aggressive than people give it credit for!! I find on soft paints it's too aggressive and you will need a finishing polish (Ultrafina or similar) on a polishing pad to erase marring caused by it. You should get fantastic results with just the latter combo.

What car do you intend on polishing btw? We're helping you with your test panel which is Jap, but if you're going to tackle a German it'll be different again.

A good tip, as already mentioned, is to use a stiff bristled brush after each panel to prevent the pad from clogging. This will help calm the pad down and stop it hopping so much.


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## the-pm (Apr 11, 2008)

Paragon said:


> You'll get it working with more practice mate. I use the 3M polishes and to answer one of your questions re: FC+ creating quite an amount of dust - yes it does. I personally don't see much benefit of adding a dash of Ultrafina when using Extra-Fine, as you just end up using more product than neccessary. If you're after a specific pad lube to use on Jap paint, you should take a look at the Gloss-it EVP pad prime :thumb: That said, I have found that the Extra-Fine is more aggressive than people give it credit for!! I find on soft paints it's too aggressive and you will need a finishing polish (Ultrafina or similar) on a polishing pad to erase marring caused by it. You should get fantastic results with just the latter combo.
> 
> What car do you intend on polishing btw? We're helping you with your test panel which is Jap, but if you're going to tackle a German it'll be different again.
> 
> A good tip, as already mentioned, is to use a stiff bristled brush after each panel to prevent the pad from clogging. This will help calm the pad down and stop it hopping so much.


Thanks, that is good to know as the Fast Cut did seem to make a lot of dust. I do not have any of the Gloss-it EVP but I do have some Quick Detailer, would that do the trick or does it need to be an oil (I have 3-in-1!)?

I plan to use it on a Jag, Peugeot and a Mazda when I feel confident enough.

Regarding cleaning the pads with a brush, how can you tell if they are clogged, I thought they were ok as you could see sections of pad, also as they are a waffle pad there are no obvious flat areas with a build up of polish, does anyone have a picture of a clogged and unclogged pad? I seem to remember seeing something in one of the guides or a youtube video.


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## 888-Dave (Jul 30, 2010)

Another for the sticky jap paint. 

Did a S2000 over the weekend which luckily had both sides painted during it's life so they were reletively easy but bonnet, boot and roof of hard top was a headache (which I was expecting) so knew how to deal with it.

A couple of drops of Ultrafina works wonders as Mirror finish said but always worth trying 3M's own pads.

Pop yourself down to the scrappy and try and get a panel from a VW, BMW, Audi or Merc... totally different story :thumb:


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## Magic Detail (Jul 25, 2010)

the-pm said:


> Thanks, that is good to know as the Fast Cut did seem to make a lot of dust. I do not have any of the Gloss-it EVP but I do have some Quick Detailer, would that do the trick or does it need to be an oil (I have 3-in-1!)?
> 
> I plan to use it on a Jag, Peugeot and a Mazda when I feel confident enough.
> 
> Regarding cleaning the pads with a brush, how can you tell if they are clogged, I thought they were ok as you could see sections of pad, also as they are a waffle pad there are no obvious flat areas with a build up of polish, does anyone have a picture of a clogged and unclogged pad? I seem to remember seeing something in one of the guides or a youtube video.


The Jag and Pug are ~intermediate I have found, and the Mazda soft. I'd start with Ultrafina on nothing more than a polishing pad on all of them and see if you need to step it up. :buffer:

You can use a quick spritz of QD on the pad at first, then let the polish do the lubricating. The Ultrafina is oily, and gives you a longer working time than most other polishes, so you don't have to rush it :thumb: You wont need to keep spraying QD on it, just the once at the beginning should be enough. After each panel I run the machine on the lowest setting for about 5 or 6 seconds holding a stiff bristled brush onto the pad. You'll see dried polish dust coming out of the pad. It definately helps keep them unclogged. I don't see the point in allowing the pad performance to drop off before unclogging, when it takes less than 10 seconds to remove excess polish.

You probably wont need to crack out the Extra-Fine or FC+ unless you start chasing some heavy correctional work, or are working on particularly tough paint.

HTH mate.


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## Dream Machines (Mar 13, 2006)

Your problem would most likely be sticky paint
before I give the solution to it that I use, here is a tip about pad prep

Its fine to get them wet and then spin dry etc but make sure you put some polish on the 9 o clock and 3 o clock positions of the pad and rub in thoroughly with your thumbs
Then spray black baron pad lub (one spritz) on the pad

add polish to the surface and then begin polishing (tilting the pad slightly to pick up polish from right to left in one motion)

doing this will help you alot 
if using a foamed wool or 100% wool, apply a circle of polish to the pad (about 1 inch in from the outer edge of a 6 or 7 inch pad and use black baron also

the baron will lubricate both the polish and the pad 
i also have parrafin oil on hand when working with some paints 

Now to the solution for sticky paint

Sticky paint comes into effect at around 1200 rpm (rotary) 
so to prevent this and to also get improved defect removal, prepare a foam pad as i mentioned above and then apply the polish to the surface as normal

However instead of using 1 to 2 inch per second movements with the rotary, move the rotary alot faster but buff in one direction only

When dealing with hard ceramic paint and soft paint, I use increased speed (3 to 6 on rotary) with 4 to 8 inch per second movements, which for some reason, improves defect removal on hard paints and prevents sticky paint from being a PITA plus it also has one other thing up its sleeve that I'll mention elsewhere on the forum

Use this technique until the defects are gone, then slow down and jewel the paint at 900 then 700 and 600 rpm and you'll be really happy

There may be increased clarity, depth and gloss from using this technique instead of the traditional 1 inch ps

good luck. I'll do a video on this shortly


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## Dream Machines (Mar 13, 2006)

Two more things - due to their stiffness or grittiness, I do not recommend using any heavy cutting foam pads on soft paint or soft sticky paint

pads that are dangerous (bad marring plus extreme heat and burning risk with conventional compounds and polishes)

Meguiars Burgundy - 
lake Country Kompressor Purple foam 
lake Country Yellow CCS 

better to use foamed wool or 100% wool than those pads
better cut, cooler working, orange peel reduction ability

finally - some paints will absorb lubricants in most polishes, requiring diluted black baron or water to be sprayed on the surface during polishing set

have had glasurit paints do this in my shop


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## the-pm (Apr 11, 2008)

888-Dave said:


> A couple of drops of Ultrafina works wonders as Mirror finish said but always worth trying 3M's own pads.
> 
> Pop yourself down to the scrappy and try and get a panel from a VW, BMW, Audi or Merc... totally different story :thumb:


Any theres me thinking a bonnet is a bonnet, how wrong could I be! thanks


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## the-pm (Apr 11, 2008)

Paragon said:


> You can use a quick spritz of QD on the pad at first, then let the polish do the lubricating. The Ultrafina is oily, and gives you a longer working time than most other polishes, so you don't have to rush it :thumb: You wont need to keep spraying QD on it, just the once at the beginning should be enough. After each panel I run the machine on the lowest setting for about 5 or 6 seconds holding a stiff bristled brush onto the pad. You'll see dried polish dust coming out of the pad. It definately helps keep them unclogged. I don't see the point in allowing the pad performance to drop off before unclogging, when it takes less than 10 seconds to remove excess polish.


Thanks, sounds good, I am going to try just a buffing pad and ultrafine tomorrow.


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## the-pm (Apr 11, 2008)

Dream Machines said:


> Your problem would most likely be sticky paint
> before I give the solution to it that I use, here is a tip about pad prep
> 
> Its fine to get them wet and then spin dry etc but make sure you put some polish on the 9 o clock and 3 o clock positions of the pad and rub in thoroughly with your thumbs
> ...


Thanks, that sounds like good advice, I will give it a try. Only issue with the rpm is that I think the slowest speed on the Silverline is 900prm so might stuggle with the 700rpm and 600rpm suggestion.

A few people have mentioned the pad lubricant, where do you get this from as I have not seen this before?


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## the-pm (Apr 11, 2008)

So I have had another go today and had much better luck, I put it down to being a nice sunny day and so was in a much better mood! I cleaned the bonnet with Tardis and APC to get rid of the dust, I then made sure I had the bonnet in a good position so that I could work on it better, instead of working on the edge bit of the bonnet that had a crease line I started working right in the middle which was completely flat.

The main thing that made the difference was that I lifted the buffer by putting my fingers split around the spindle, this allowed me to cradle the butter and lift it a little as well. I made sure I cleaned the pad regularly by spinning on speed on and then applying a brush.

With the red pad and Ultrafina I got some pretty good results as long as I did not use too high a speed, 2 seems to be very quick and the absolute maximum for me. I did tend to find that the polish did not really go clear and was sticky to remove with a cloth afterwards (wiping with my finger did not leave a clean mark), I really need to use IPA to get rid of the residue. I did try and run it longer but it started dusting so I am a little confused with this as I am not sure if I am working it two long or two little. Although the results where good (similar to the sort of impressive things I see in the gallery etc), I could just about pick out a little hazing when I put it in the sun, is this what the call micro marring, it was not buffer trails as it was two fine. It was almost as if I had not wiped the polish off properly, as I say it was quite tricky, thoughts?

I did notice a few sport of polish instead of just a swirl from the polish, I wondered if this was because I had too much polish, I only used a couple of small blobs but I cleaned the pads and just used some water and it seemed a little better, do you need a really small amount of this polish?

So after this success I tried my arch nemesis, Extra Fine on a Orange pad, what a great polish, by lifting the buffer a little it was much easier to control (very little hopping) and the polish almost disappeared it went that clear, I could easily wipe it away with a cloth and left no residue. The finish was not perfect as you would expect but quite good all the same and it had remove a lot of the swirl marks, so I gave it another go with the red pad and Ultrafina and admired my work, I was pleased. 

If I could get some advice on how to get around my sticky Ultrafina problem it would be much appreciated.

Thanks for all your advice so far, it is much appraised and it is making a difference.

Philip


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## Magic Detail (Jul 25, 2010)

Well I've been doing a job today, and have been using Extra-Fine as it happens! You're right, it is a great product. The problem you're experiencing with the Ultrafina being tricky to buff off is actually quite normal I think. Its a very oily product, so when you attempt removal of the residue, it sort of smears around. This is quite easily solved by using a few different things - firstly, I find removing it with a shag pile microfibre helps lift it off the surface, and then secondly performing an IPA wipedown using a plush microfibre removes any of the leftover residue. I suspect what you have found when holding the panel up to the sunlight is infact the remains of the polish reflecting the light, rather than it being true micromarring :thumb:

Glad to find todays experiences have been encouraging for you.


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## Dream Machines (Mar 13, 2006)

the-pm said:


> Thanks, that sounds like good advice, I will give it a try. Only issue with the rpm is that I think the slowest speed on the Silverline is 900prm so might stuggle with the 700rpm and 600rpm suggestion.
> 
> A few people have mentioned the pad lubricant, where do you get this from as I have not seen this before?


okay no probs. 900 will do just fine maybe greatly
black baron is available from proper auto care in 473ml spray or 1 gallon container


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