# Full Review on Flex XC 3401 VRG Very Long !



## Eurogloss

*Haven't posted for a while because of health issues !

Full Review and Testing of the Flex XC 3401 VRG

After one month of extensive testing of the Flex XC 3401 VRG here are my impressions on this machine.

Out of the box this machine feels and handles like a rotary polisher it also tends to runaway from you like a rotary does, the torque and power are impressive!

General design & ergonomics; very pleasing to the eye with the red and black body design. The design is very high tech typical of these German power tools as is the build quality which is excellent!

Because I am used to Rotary Polishing it did not effect me at all. However it did take some practice to polish with this machine, but afterwards it was like using a

Rotary. Compared to Porter Cable, Meguiar's G220, UDM and Cyclo machines it literally obliterates them !

When you compare it to a Makita BO 6040, Festool RO 150 FEQ , RO 125 FEQ, and RO 150 E it works in a similar way with constant forced rotation, but the other four machines can be switched from random orbital to forced rotation .The Festool machines are Sanders not polishers ! Flex is far superior in power and torque; nothing comes close!

The Flex cannot be switched to RO; it works in forced rotation only.

According to Flex this machine was designed for polishing and nothing else; that's what it does best.

With a 900 watt motor and an 8 mm throw this machine will do what a rotary does.

Even if a bit slower (but not that much slower !). Considering it spins at only 480 rpm max speed, it will do paint correction. The majority of polishing jobs I did were done with this machine, no rotary was used except for a job that I did last Friday Mercedes Benz CLK 240 in Zircon Silver . I used a combination of Rotary and Flex.

I also compared the speed of correction how these machines polish, first up was my rotary, it eliminated deep scratches very quickly but left very fine holograms which I went over afterwards with Rotary & Flex . All gone! No swirl marks whatsoever!

I tried to bog this machine down to see if I could stop it but without success; it kept on going and going! At one point I was trying to remove a very bad scratch from the boot of this car and I put pressure as you would when you are removing a deep scratch , anyway , I managed to generate a tremendous amount of heat to this area so I had to back off immediately!

This does not normally happen when you are using a Random Orbital with forced rotation, a Rotary Polisher is the only machine that I know of that will create this heat build up!

Mercedes Benz use the the Flex XC 3401 VRG on their assembly line to achieve that glossy finish on all there motor cars.

I tested this machine on a number of paint finishes from single stage, to clear coat paints, to the latest Nano Ceramic Scratch Resistant Paints. Ideally I would use a rotary polisher to correct severe paint defects like scratches, swirl marks, wet sanding scratches, but with the Flex you can actually correct all theses really bad paint problems without the use of a rotary ! I know there are skeptics out there that would argue the opposite.

I deliberately inflicted wash marks using a 3M Scotch Brite on a test panel; I also used a 3M 1500 grit wet and dry to create sand scratches then I used a piece of metal to create severe scratches, the Flex corrected almost 99% of all these paint defects without a problem.

No swirl marks whatsoever! Flawless finish and very high gloss paint finish!

These are characteristics that a rotary has when creating a very high gloss finish!

With the Flex XC 3401 VRG you can eliminate the paint defect.

And to correct these paint defects the Flex's speed has to be set at 480rpm to get these results that is the maximum speed. Otherwise it won't cut the paint!

One feature I really liked was the variable speed trigger which allows you to feather touch the speed for applying waxes, polishes, and compounds and for those very delicate paint areas that need a reduced speed.. After you have selected the desired speed you can lock it in with the electronic speed dial control.

When selecting buffing pads, either Flex or Lake Country, make sure the pad is centered properly otherwise the machine will vibrate a lot (especially at full power).

Noise: because it's forced rotation and direct drive you will get that typical whining of these power tools (Festool Rotex RO 150 FEQ) but in a more balanced way.

Please note: due to the high pitched noise it is advisable to wear ear protection at all times whilst using this power tool.

Feel of the machine and ergonomic design: it feels like a rotary; the electronic speed control dial is on the left hand side; the bale handle is also very useful as it gives you more control when polishing lager areas as well as very small areas.

The fact that it's got a proper handle (like a rotary) was a pleasure to use.

Long periods of polishing were no problem with this machine however, it is advisable to take short breaks.

Electronics: Flex's seven fold microprocessor electronics: with consistent speed control by tachometer generator (Speed Dial Control) soft start, accelerator trigger switch, restart protection after power interruption, over load protection, temperature monitoring and speed selection.

8mm orbital movement

Permanent direct drive for an even polished surface

Removable ergonomic knob grip

High-powered motor: can handle extreme loads

Spindle lock

Quality shut off carbon brushes: if the carbon brushes wear down, the motor will automatically switch off and thus protected from damage.

Technical specifications: Flex XC 3401 VRG

Max. polishing pad diameter 160 mm

Velcro pad 150 mm

Speed without load 160- 480 rpm

Orbit 8 mm

Orbit rate, without load 3200-9600 opm (rpm)

Power input 900 watt

Power output 590 watt

Weight 2.6 kg

Pros:

Plenty of power and torque

Corrects all shorts of paint problems (like a rotary)

Short learning curve compared to a rotary polisher

Will not leave swirl marks (depending on pad choice and polish compound)

Will leave a very high gloss finish like a rotary

Can be used by Professionals and Enthusiasts

Cons:

Will generate a lot of heat if left on a spot (like a rotary)

Can cause paint burn (although highly unlikely)

Can run away from you like a rotary

Vibrations can be a problem if pad is not centered (otherwise a very balanced machine).

You can only use one size Buffing Pad 6 inch or 6.5 inch at this stage, that was in 2008 ! Lake Country have developed this System !

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=jQEGQZpua7Q#

http://www.lakecountrymfg.com/products/features.cfm/catid/4/subcatid/30/lc--backing-plate-system

In conclusion, I find the Flex XC 3401 a brilliant power tool that will tackle everything that is thrown at it with polishing being it's forte and achieve what it's big brother (Rotary)does even if the speed is slower . In one word excellent!

I would highly recommend this power tool for the novice detailer to the seasoned professional without any reservations.

Paint defects ranging from wet sanding marks , to self inflicted scratches, to paint burn ! To a mirror finish no swirl marks or holograms whatsoever !

Colour Sanding marks 3M 1500 Grit paper !



















Deep Scratches !










Deep scratches caused by steel wool



















Wash scratches










After used Flex XC 3401 VRG with a Orange CCS Pad at speed six and Menzerna PO 85 RD 3.01 and PO 106 FF



















New Lake Country 7" Kompressor Pads can be used with the Flex XC 3401 VRG ! They still need to be centered to get a vibration free polishing experience !





































These cars were done with just the Flex XC 3401 VRG DA !


































































































































































































































Flex has done it again!

Thanks for reading

Regards Mario*


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## honda-r

Looks like it is a nice tool to have, safe (ish) tool and can achive paint correction.


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## Eurogloss

Yes it is ! It will do what a rotary does even if a bit slower !
As you can see from the pics it will remove severe to harsh paint defects .

I won't replace a rotary but it will complement it !

I am a rotary user but after using this machine for more than one month i am more than convinced ! I use both now , To achieve even better results !:buffer: :thumb:


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## Bigpikle

I like it and VERY nearly bought one BUT....you havent mentioned the fact that you cant change the backing plate. You are stuck with the 6"size only, making choice of pads a bit of a challenge and inflexible.

Otherwise I have no doubt it is a great machine, but I'm glad i went rotary in the end


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## phil440

I'm a rotary and DA man there isn't many cars Ive done where it isn't a combination of the 2, rotary for open easy to work spaces and DA for tight contoured surfaces and plastics IE bumpers


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## superstring

Interesting write up. However I'm curious about this statement:



Eurogloss said:


> No swirl marks whatsoever! Flawless finish and very high gloss paint finish!
> 
> These are characteristics that a rotary has when creating a very high gloss finish, you can't get this with a Random Orbital. Because these machines jiggle they can't generate enough heat to correct paint problems there for they give you an optical illusion they are removing the defect when in actual fact they are filling it !


How do you figure a RO "fills" defects? My understanding is it's the polish/compound that does the filling, not the machine.


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## Eurogloss

Bigpikle said:


> I like it and VERY nearly bought one BUT....you havent mentioned the fact that you cant change the backing plate. You are stuck with the 6"size only, making choice of pads a bit of a challenge and inflexible.
> 
> Otherwise I have no doubt it is a great machine, but I'm glad i went rotary in the end


Actually ,The Edge Buffing pads in USA are in the process of developing a system that will get rid of a backing plate all together and be able to fit and centre perfectly any pad size ! Here is the link !






Regards Mario


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## swordjo

superstring said:


> Interesting write up. However I'm curious about this statement:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by Eurogloss
> 
> No swirl marks whatsoever! Flawless finish and very high gloss paint finish!
> 
> These are characteristics that a rotary has when creating a very high gloss finish, you can't get this with a Random Orbital. Because these machines jiggle they can't generate enough heat to correct paint problems there for they give you an optical illusion they are removing the defect when in actual fact they are filling it !
> 
> 
> 
> How do you figure a RO "fills" defects? My understanding is it's the polish/compound that does the filling, not the machine.
Click to expand...

I agree with superstring, i've seen plenty of people on here to full corrections with a DA and not just fill the swirls, proven by doing an IPA wipedown. You can achieve full correction with a DA. As Dave KG has said on many occasions, he feels the only difference between a rotart and DA is the time and that a rotary gives a slightly crisper finish.


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## Eurogloss

superstring said:


> Interesting write up. However I'm curious about this statement:
> 
> How do you figure a RO "fills" defects? My understanding is it's the polish/compound that does the filling, not the machine.


You are right ! The compounds fill . However , because a RO does not spin it oscillates or jiggles it doesn't generate enough heat to break down the polish and cut the paint there for it's pushing the product into the swirls or scratches that's why it's filling !

Perhaps if you use a wool pad you might get some cutting results !

Flex on the other hand works in forced rotation and generates enough heat to
eliminate the paint defect !:buffer:


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## Deanoecosse

Forgive me for being blunt, but your talking b0llocks about the DA not removing defects. The DA IS removing the defects by process of working the polish. The polish, being abrasive is cutting the paint and removing defects, not masking them. A simple wipe down with an IPA solution once you've fully worked the polish will remove any fillers which may be there and will reveal a defect free surface (if you've worked the polish correctly). You dont need heat to remove defects


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## Dave KG

Excellent review of the forced rotation DA - I used a Makita BO6040 (same idea, but switchable) and it was very good but I couldn't justify it into my detailing routine as I use rotary and DA extensively...

I must say I disagree entirely with you on the defect correction capabilities of a DA though. Correction (physical removal of paint) can happily be achieved by a DA, indeed it can happily be achieved by hand with enough time and effort. I have proved this many times in the past, either in actual test or during details that I have carried out extensively with a DA. The one that spring to my mind is this one on an Audi A4, corrected entirely by DA using Power Gloss and IP (no fillers):

http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=7441

These marks were not filled by DA, they were physically corrected.

Further demonstration of hand, or indeed DA ability to correct by physical paint removal comes from the fact that these tool can strike through - and this has been demonstrated in test, and also a few unlucky members here have struck through by DA - they'll happily say they are removing paint, I am sure.

The differences are the speed at which a DA and a rotary can correct... A rotary breaks abrasives down more aggressive and will cut faster than a DA, but its speed thats the difference. DAs will struggle to fully break down harsh compounds, but they will still be cutting and they can happily break down finishing and medium polishes to give a finish on most paint types that will be a rival for a rotary machine if the tool is used correctly. On soft solid paints, the rotary may finish down just a little sharper owing to more consistent abrasive break down - but that is it.

Heat is an irrelevance to actual cut, simply a by product of the cutting process (friction) - but more heat does not equal more cut: try wool vs foam to see this. Higher cutting wool pads will correct more than foam, but run cooler.

Sorry for the essay there, but just felt it necessary to highlight that DAs can indeed correct paint, and they dont just fill as implied by your original post.


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## superstring

^ I think that about nails it. :thumb: Thanks Dave! Not to take anything away from the OP; still an excellent review.


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## rob750

Compared to a Porter Cable 7424 has the flex got less or more vibration ?


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## legend_of_chaos

Bigpikle said:


> I like it and VERY nearly bought one BUT....you havent mentioned the fact that you cant change the backing plate. You are stuck with the 6"size only, making choice of pads a bit of a challenge and inflexible.
> 
> Otherwise I have no doubt it is a great machine, but I'm glad i went rotary in the end


This is incorrect, flex have now made a 5.5" backing plate with foam inbetween the velcro and backing plate that they are sending to all flex purchasers.


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## maesal

I have the 5.5" backing plate and it works nice.


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## ZoranC

Bigpikle said:


> I like it and VERY nearly bought one BUT....you havent mentioned the fact that you cant change the backing plate. You are stuck with the 6"size only, making choice of pads a bit of a challenge and inflexible.


Not correct. First, backing plate is 5.5", not 6". Second, last half an inch of those 5.5" is soft foam that can be easily trimmed with scissors down to 5" so if you get spare bp you can have your cake and eat it too.

Further more, number of USA owners have trimmed down their bp on a lathe all the way down to central ring ending with 4.5" bp.


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## Eurogloss

Deanoecosse said:


> Forgive me for being blunt, but your talking b0llocks about the DA not removing defects. The DA IS removing the defects by process of working the polish. The polish, being abrasive is cutting the paint and removing defects, not masking them. A simple wipe down with an IPA solution once you've fully worked the polish will remove any fillers which may be there and will reveal a defect free surface (if you've worked the polish correctly). You dont need heat to remove defects


I totally disagree with you ! Why on earth do professionals like myself and others rely more on rotaries than RO ? No disrespect to you or others on this forum but you do need heat to remove paint defects !

That's why more and more professional and enthusiasts use rotaries !

Flex is the closest thing that does what a rotary does !:thumb:


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## Eurogloss

rob750 said:


> Compared to a Porter Cable 7424 has the flex got less or more vibration ?


I have never tried a Porter Cable so i can't comment !
All i know any DA or RO that oscilates will cause some form of vibration even if more balanced !

The vibration is mostly caused by the pad not being perfectly centered !


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## Eurogloss

Dave KG said:


> Excellent review of the forced rotation DA - I used a Makita BO6040 (same idea, but switchable) and it was very good but I couldn't justify it into my detailing routine as I use rotary and DA extensively...
> 
> I must say I disagree entirely with you on the defect correction capabilities of a DA though. Correction (physical removal of paint) can happily be achieved by a DA, indeed it can happily be achieved by hand with enough time and effort. I have proved this many times in the past, either in actual test or during details that I have carried out extensively with a DA. The one that spring to my mind is this one on an Audi A4, corrected entirely by DA using Power Gloss and IP (no fillers):
> 
> http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=7441
> 
> These marks were not filled by DA, they were physically corrected.
> 
> Further demonstration of hand, or indeed DA ability to correct by physical paint removal comes from the fact that these tool can strike through - and this has been demonstrated in test, and also a few unlucky members here have struck through by DA - they'll happily say they are removing paint, I am sure.
> 
> The differences are the speed at which a DA and a rotary can correct... A rotary breaks abrasives down more aggressive and will cut faster than a DA, but its speed thats the difference. DAs will struggle to fully break down harsh compounds, but they will still be cutting and they can happily break down finishing and medium polishes to give a finish on most paint types that will be a rival for a rotary machine if the tool is used correctly. On soft solid paints, the rotary may finish down just a little sharper owing to more consistent abrasive break down - but that is it.
> 
> Heat is an irrelevance to actual cut, simply a by product of the cutting process (friction) - but more heat does not equal more cut: try wool vs foam to see this. Higher cutting wool pads will correct more than foam, but run cooler.
> 
> Sorry for the essay there, but just felt it necessary to highlight that DAs can indeed correct paint, and they dont just fill as implied by your original post.


Thanks Dave ,

I use Rotary and DA ( Flex XC 3401 VRG and Festool RO 150 E) as a professional ! Sometimes i use DA and nothing else it all depends on the job and the paint defect !
Why on earth does Meguiar's say you can't remove sand scratches with a ro ? Forgive me if i am wrong ! But don't you need friction to remove a paint defect ? By product or not ( of cutting , correction ) ?Also speed is very important !


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## swordjo

Eurogloss said:


> Thanks Dave ,
> 
> I use Rotary and DA ( Flex XC 3401 VRG and Festool RO 150 E) as a professional ! Sometimes i use DA and nothing else it all depends on the job and the paint defect !
> Why on earth does Meguiar's say you can't remove sand scratches with a ro ? Forgive me if i am wrong ! But don't you need friction to remove a paint defect ? By product or not ( of cutting , correction ) ?


We get your point mate, YOU ARE A PROFESSIONAL, but what difference does that make. I removed swirls on my first go with a pc years ago, as have hundreds of people on this forum. And i'll think you'll find that some of the pro's on here still use a DA on certains cars where they feel they have to and still remove the defects. If you are only filling in the swirls on the parts of the car where you use the DA i'd maybe think about advising your customers that they aren't getting 100% correction when they could be if you knew a little more about the product you were using!


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## Deanoecosse

Eurogloss said:


> I totally disagree with you ! Why on earth do professionals like myself and others rely more on rotaries than RO ? No disrespect to you or others on this forum but you do need heat to remove paint defects !
> 
> That's why more and more professional and enthusiasts use rotaries !
> 
> Flex is the closest thing that does what a rotary does !:thumb:


Sorry I'll need to agree to disagree with you on this. The reason most pro's use a rotary in preference to a DA (I use a rotary myself, but also have a PC) is that they work a lot quicker and dont have the tiring vibration issue that the DA's have. As DaveKG has already said, heat is merely a byproduct of the friction caused by a rotary. Take a wool pad for example, they run cool but produce a strong cut. If a DA didnt produce any cut as you claim, how is it possible for a DA to burn through paint?
A simple IPA wipe down after a polishing session with a DA will prove to you that it has infact taken away the defects, not merley masked them as you wrongly claim-its very easy to prove that you are wrong with your claim.


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## Eurogloss

swordjo said:


> We get your point mate, YOU ARE A PROFESSIONAL, but what difference does that make. I removed swirls on my first go with a pc years ago, as have hundreds of people on this forum. And i'll think you'll find that some of the pro's on here still use a DA on certains cars where they feel they have to and still remove the defects. If you are only filling in the swirls on the parts of the car where you use the DA i'd maybe think about advising your customers that they aren't getting 100% correction when they could be if you knew a little more about the product you were using!


Boy have i opened a can of worms ! This is something that i didn't come up with !


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## Eurogloss

Deanoecosse said:


> Sorry I'll need to agree to disagree with you on this. The reason most pro's use a rotary in preference to a DA (I use a rotary myself, but also have a PC) is that they work a lot quicker and dont have the tiring vibration issue that the DA's have. As DaveKG has already said, heat is merely a byproduct of the friction caused by a rotary. Take a wool pad for example, they run cool but produce a strong cut. If a DA didnt produce any cut as you claim, how is it possible for a DA to burn through paint?
> A simple IPA wipe down after a polishing session with a DA will prove to you that it has infact taken away the defects, not merley masked them as you wrongly claim-its very easy to prove that you are wrong with your claim.


Well at least it keeps this forum interesting !


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## Eurogloss

Thanks to all you guys for your comments !

Very interesting opinions !  :thumb:


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## ZoranC

To all that are commenting on Flex XC 3401 VRG while basing their experience on PC and never having 3401 in their hands, much less using it:

Please notice PC is not DA nor it is anywhere near 3401 for you to be able to draw parallels. Until you have a chance to gain actual experience with 3401 your assumptions are way way off the mark so it would be best if they are not made until then.


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## swordjo

ZoranC said:


> To all that are commenting on Flex XC 3401 VRG while basing their experience on PC and never having 3401 in their hands, much less using it:
> 
> Please notice PC is not DA nor it is anywhere near 3401 for you to be able to draw parallels. Until you have a chance to gain actual experience with 3401 your assumptions are way way off the mark so it would be best if they are not made until then.


Can you advise what the PC is then if it's not DA?


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## Eurogloss

Thanks Zoran ! I could'nt have put it better myself !


Regards Mario


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## PJS

swordjo said:


> Can you advise what the PC is then if it's not DA?


I suspect Zoran is trying to convey that the Flex is much more powerful than a typical DA/RO, that it's closer to a rotary in performance than what most people who use DA/RO's are familiar with.


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## swordjo

PJS said:


> I suspect Zoran is trying to convey that the Flex is much more powerful than a typical DA/RO, that it's closer to a rotary in performance than what most people who use DA/RO's are familiar with.


Bit of an expensive machine then if it only fills swirls in then, and pretty pointless! (saying that it will remove swirls and defects unlike the op states)


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## PJS

I think I catch your drift - but Zoran wasn't commenting on the filling argument, I believe.
Like I said, it's a case of because of having forced rotation and the extra power, ordinary DA users wouldn't appreciate the difference until they'd put one on the paint.
So commenting from a generic DA only viewpoint is a little naive since the Flex is closer to a rotary even though it is defined as a DA/RO.

I'm sure Zoran will clarify his position later this evening.


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## swordjo

PJS said:


> I'm sure Zoran will clarify his position later this evening.


He needent bother, no point bothering over something i will never use, as a rotary and small DA will see me through any detail I carry out.


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## Eurogloss

To all you guys who have read my Review on the Flex XC3401 VRG i hope to
test the new Flex Adaptor specifically designed so you can use all sorts of 
pads ! Pads will be perfectly centered (so no more off center pads which cause even more vibration )to the machine which in turn wear the bearings out very quickly.

With this system you won't need a hook and look backing plate any more !
Check this out !


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## Dave KG

ZoranC said:


> To all that are commenting on Flex XC 3401 VRG while basing their experience on PC and never having 3401 in their hands, much less using it:
> 
> Please notice PC is not DA nor it is anywhere near 3401 for you to be able to draw parallels. Until you have a chance to gain actual experience with 3401 your assumptions are way way off the mark so it would be best if they are not made until then.


I'm not sure any of the posters in this thread deserve to be spoken to (or typed at) in this tone, I'd personally appreciate it if you moderated it - manners are free.

The PC _is_ a dual action machine in that the pd both oscillates and turns, allbeit the turning motion is not forced. The Flex, and Makita BO6040 that I have used, are forced rotation DAs. Differences, yes, naturally - but both can happily be described as dual action.

I believe, if you read carefully through the posts, the main crux debate here is rather more to do with the filling and cutting capabilities of DA machines, both forced and free rotating - the discussion centering around the OP's comment that the PC cannot cut to remove defects. Indeed it can - I, and many others have proved this beyond debate.

I'm not sure I see many direct parallels being drawn between the Flex and the PC to be honest, I see a discussion opening on the correction abilities of a PC. Naturally a forced rotation DA will be able to work polishes faster - this is obvious. But many posters in this thread are not denying this, they are simply pointing out the inaccruacy (that they believe, and also I believe) of the original posts about the free rotation DAs not being able to correct.


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## Deanoecosse

Zoran, as per your usual posts, your well off the mark with your comments. As DaveKG has pointed out, the argument that myself and others have on this thread is NOT about the Flex machine at all or even comparing its abilities to the DA Porter Cable. What we are all pointing out, if you'd care to take the time to re-read and digest our comments is that the PC DOES REMOVE PAINTWORK DEFECTS, it doesnt simply fill them as the original poster is trying to claim. I will say it again, a simple IP wipedown after a session on the PC will remove any oils on the paint which may be masking defects and show that the defects are actually gone.
If a PC wasnt capable of removing defects, how is it possible for the PC to burn through paint if held in the one spot?-albeit it will take longer than it would on the flex or a rotary.


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## Bigpikle

Mario

I was under he impression that the Edge adapter was still a LONG WAY OFF? I saw a post not long ago on Autopia, from the guy who runs the company, that it was an early prototype and wouldnt be for sale for quite a considerable period - has anything changed in this regard? Is it actually available yet as i have tried to find it without any luck?

I also acknowledge there is a 5.5" plate instead of the 6" originally available, but I also think this is still very restrictive. I use 3.75", 4" and 5" pads as well as 6" and 7" pads on my UDM and rotary, and couldnt detail many cars without the smaller pads - in fact I have used them on every car i have detailed.

I'm not knocking the machine, as I truly believe it is superb and exactly what i would have liked to use, but the BP issue is a major one IMHO and until the new options are actually on the shelf and fully available, I think it holds back the machine considerably.


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## Eurogloss

Dave KG said:


> I'm not sure any of the posters in this thread deserve to be spoken to (or typed at) in this tone, I'd personally appreciate it if you moderated it - manners are free.
> 
> The PC _is_ a dual action machine in that the pd both oscillates and turns, allbeit the turning motion is not forced. The Flex, and Makita BO6040 that I have used, are forced rotation DAs. Differences, yes, naturally - but both can happily be described as dual action.
> 
> I believe, if you read carefully through the posts, the main crux debate here is rather more to do with the filling and cutting capabilities of DA machines, both forced and free rotating - the discussion centering around the OP's comment that the PC cannot cut to remove defects. Indeed it can - I, and many others have proved this beyond debate.
> 
> I'm not sure I see many direct parallels being drawn between the Flex and the PC to be honest, I see a discussion opening on the correction abilities of a PC. Naturally a forced rotation DA will be able to work polishes faster - this is obvious. But many posters in this thread are not denying this, they are simply pointing out the inaccruacy (that they believe, and also I believe) of the original posts about the free rotation DAs not being able to correct.


I agree there David ! Regards Mario( Eurogloss)


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## Eurogloss

Big pickle said:


> Mario
> 
> I was under he impression that the Edge adapter was still a LONG WAY OFF? I saw a post not long ago on Autopia, from the guy who runs the company, that it was an early prototype and would be for sale for quite a considerable period - has anything changed in this regard? Is it actually available yet as i have tried to find it without any luck?
> 
> I also acknowledge there is a 5.5" plate instead of the 6" originally available, but I also think this is still very restrictive. I use 3.75", 4" and 5" pads as well as 6" and 7" pads on my UDM and rotary, and couldnt detail many cars without the smaller pads - in fact I have used them on every car i have detailed.
> 
> I'm not knocking the machine, as I truly believe it is superb and exactly what i would have liked to use, but the BP issue is a major one IMHO and until the new options are actually on the shelf and fully available, I think it holds back the machine considerably.


Damon ,

I have emailed Edge in USA and here are there responses !

Yes, it will be available worldwide

John O'Brien (Operations Manager)

Dedication To Detail, Inc.

777 Henderson Blvd.

Suites # 1 & 2

Folcroft, PA 19032
---------------------------------------
( Phone: (610) 583-4883
2 Fax: (610) 583-2573
* Email: [email protected]
Website: www.edgepads.com

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] 
Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2008 10:05 AM
To: John O'Brien
Subject: Re: Edge Flex Adapter
Importance: High

John, will it be available in Australia ?

Best Regards

Mario Corallo

www.euroglossprestige.com.au

----- Original Message -----

From: John O'Brien

To: [email protected]

Cc: Aaron Krause

Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2008 11:24 PM

Subject: Edge Flex Adapter

Mario,

Hope you are doing well. We are currently in the developmental stages. We hope to launch this product in about a 4-6 weeks.

John O'Brien (Operations Manager)

Dedication To Detail, Inc.

777 Henderson Blvd.

Suites # 1 & 2

Folcroft, PA 19032
---------------------------------------
( Phone: (610) 583-4883
2 Fax: (610) 583-2573
* Email: [email protected]
Website: www.edgepads.com

Mario,

As for pad washers our pad works best with the new grit guard system. As
for vibration yes we experienced great reduction in vibration of the
machine once the quick connect system was set up. When we used 4" pads
on the machine it felt like the machine was not even on, that how smooth
it felt.

We are working hard every day on the new adapter, we are hoping to
launch soon.

John O'Brien (Operations Manager)

Dedication To Detail, Inc.

777 Henderson Blvd.

Suites # 1 & 2

Folcroft, PA 19032
---------------------------------------
* Phone: (610) 583-4883
* Fax: (610) 583-2573
* Email: [email protected]
Website: www.edgepads.com

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] 
Sent: Friday, April 25, 2008 2:30 AM
To: John O'Brien
Subject: Fw: Edge Flex Adapter
Importance: High

John, another question i wanted to ask you can you use The Edge System
2000, 
on pad washers such as Lake Country System 2000 Pad Washer and the
Latest 
Grit Guard Universal Pad Washer ?
I looked through your FAQ on your site but it doesn't mention Pad
Washers !

Also , when testing the Edge Flex Adapter did Aaron experience any
vibration 
at full speed ? As you know this machine does generate quite a bit of 
vibration will your system minimize this problem ?
I noticed that when the pads are not perfectly centered the machine 
vibrates like hell ! Not good for the operator and the machine !

I can't wait to try this system out and see how good it is compared to
the 
outdated hook and loop system !

I look forward to your reply

Best Regards

Mario Corallo
www.euroglossprestige.com.au

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "John O'Brien" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 9:47 AM
Subject: RE: Edge Flex Adapter

Mario,

You can buy both 6 inch and 4 inch pads online at autogeek.net

I unfortunately do not know who carries these pads near you.

Kindest Regards,

John O'Brien
Operations Manager
Dedication to Detail, Inc.
777 Henderson Blvd. Suites 1 & 2
Folcroft, PA 19032
(610) 583-4883 (p)
(610) 583-4885 (f)

Please visit us at www.edgepads.com

-----Original Message-----
From: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
To: "John O'Brien" <[email protected]>
Sent: 4/21/08 7:27 PM
Subject: Re: Edge Flex Adapter

John, i noticed that Aaron was using several size buffing pads in You
Tube 
when he was showing the Flex XC3401 VRG ( Edge Flex Adapter ) .
Will they be available in Australia ? Or can you buy these pads on the
net ?

Good luck with your launch !

Thank you

Best Regards

Mario Corallo
www.euroglossprestige.com.au

----- Original Message ----- 
From: John O'Brien
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, April 18, 2008 12:07 AM
Subject: RE: Edge Flex Adapter

Yes, it will be available worldwide

John O'Brien (Operations Manager)

Dedication To Detail, Inc.

777 Henderson Blvd.

Suites # 1 & 2

Folcroft, PA 19032
---------------------------------------
( Phone: (610) 583-4883
2 Fax: (610) 583-2573
* Email: [email protected]
Website: www.edgepads.com

------------------------------------------------------------------------
------

From: [email protected] 
[mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2008 10:05 AM
To: John O'Brien
Subject: Re: Edge Flex Adapter
Importance: High

John, will it be available in Australia ?

Best Regards

Mario Corallo

www.euroglossprestige.com.au

Damon, i am in touch with The Edge Company and it sounds very positive !
I hope that there system will be available soon because i can't stand not being able to use other smaller pads like yourself with my Flex machine !

Regards Mario :thumb:


----------



## ZoranC

swordjo said:


> Can you advise what the PC is then if it's not DA?


Single action (random orbit), not a dual action.


----------



## ZoranC

swordjo said:


> He needent bother, no point bothering over something i will never use, as a rotary and small DA will see me through any detail I carry out.


Just because it might be of no use to you personally, which is fine, that does not mean it is automatically not good tool for the rest of the world. World does not begin nor end with you. I was speaking for the benefit of those that are not you. So I will bother with speaking.

From what I hear Mercedes Benz uses Flex XC 3401 VRG on their lines. It is good enough for them even though I am sure they could use rotary and/or PC (PC, not a DA, PC is not a DA) if they felt that would serve then better. I am sure there is a reason why they felt PC would not serve them better. One good reason that comes to mind is that they don't have time to take it slow nor fix mistakes on production lines. They need it quick and they need it consistent (or at least that is how I imagine it).


----------



## Eurogloss

Deanoecosse said:


> Zoran, as per your usual posts, your well off the mark with your comments. As DaveKG has pointed out, the argument that myself and others have on this thread is NOT about the Flex machine at all or even comparing its abilities to the DA Porter Cable. What we are all pointing out, if you'd care to take the time to re-read and digest our comments is that the PC DOES REMOVE PAINTWORK DEFECTS, it doesnt simply fill them as the original poster is trying to claim. I will say it again, a simple IP wipedown after a session on the PC will remove any oils on the paint which may be masking defects and show that the defects are actually gone.
> If a PC wasnt capable of removing defects, how is it possible for the PC to burn through paint if held in the one spot?-albeit it will take longer than it would on the flex or a rotary.


Deanoecosse, i stand corrected on my original post ! I have never heard of a PC burn the paint however, where heavy compounds & buffing pads being used to cause this damage ?

If you reread my Review i have removed a number of words that were contradictory ! Regards Mario


----------



## ZoranC

Dave KG said:


> I'm not sure any of the posters in this thread deserve to be spoken to (or typed at) in this tone, I'd personally appreciate it if you moderated it - manners are free.


Dave, there is nothing to moderate in my post as it is nothing but logical to point out that those not having experience with something should not be preaching others on the subject. However, there is a number of other posts on this board, both in this thread (rudeness toward OP) and in others (sexist comments, nationalist comments, etc), that would benefit more from your concern about manners on this board.



Dave KG said:


> The PC _is_ a dual action machine in that the pd both oscillates and turns, allbeit the turning motion is not forced. The Flex, and Makita BO6040 that I have used, are forced rotation DAs. Differences, yes, naturally - but both can happily be described as dual action.


PC can be happily described as dual action machine only if one changed definition of what dual action machine is.



Dave KG said:


> I believe, if you read carefully through the posts, the main crux debate here is rather more to do with the filling and cutting capabilities ...


Yes, I have noticed that main debate among DW-ers in this thread is not on actual OP's subject but looking to crucify him for a single sentence out of whole much bigger text. It is irrelevant whether his sentence and his understanding in that regard is absolutely correct, what is relevant is that he is correct that XC 3401 VRG achieves much higher level of correction and level of gloss that PC could ever achieve. Those that do not have experience with it will not know what I am talking about, hence one of reasons behind my comment.

He is happy to writeup on something nobody else on this board did. Yet you are greeting him with knives. Talk about manners. Yet you did not say a word on that. To be able to preach to one you should be preaching equally to all.

While still on same subject, please read up, if you haven't already TH0001's thread on Autopia about his experiments what takes out more clear, PC, rotary, or wet sanding as measured by PTG. You will find he claims PC takes out most even though it does not correct as much. He theorizes that is because pad on PC is "dipping" into uneven surfaces, "filling" them as it is trying to work. So, maybe OP was incorrect, but also maybe it seems he was not that far off, was he?

So do DW-ers crucify those that are not 100% correct all the time? If yes I have a bad feeling not a single member will be left standing.


----------



## Dave KG

Before I reply here, I must apollogise to the OP for his thread venturing off topic, however I feel I must reply to this post to make my position a little clearer. 



ZoranC said:


> Dave, there is nothing to moderate in my post as it is nothing but logical to point out that those not having experience with something should not be preaching others on the subject. However, there is a number of other posts on this board, both in this thread (rudeness toward OP) and in others (sexist comments, nationalist comments, etc), that would benefit more from your concern about manners on this board.
> 
> *I'm sure if you look at quite a few of my posts, you will find I do express concern on many occasions about the tone of certain posts - this is a friendly community, and I'd personally like it to remain so, and I'm quite sure the vast majority of the members here would happily tell you I have before expressed my concerns very openly when I feel that the tone of a post is heading in a direction that causes concern.
> 
> But then, I am not a moderator, I am simply a member of a community - so I simply ask that folks speak to others how they would wish to be spoken to themselves from a personal stand point. This is something that those who know me well (and you dont) will know I take through all aspects of my life from detailing in my hobby, to teaching and working with people in my day to day life. Yes, I am a stickler for manners, perhaps I am old school... However, this is how I am... *
> 
> PC can be happily described as dual action machine only if one changed definition of what dual action machine is.
> 
> *Disagree... the definition of dual action refers to (in the world of detailing, lest we not forget that machines were around long before detailing for the purposes of other crafts) a tool where the pad can spin or osicllate. Be this spinning forced or free, it matters not. Both the Flex and the PC can happily be regarded as dual action machines. A rotary by contrast is very much a single action tool - the pad can only spin as it is constrained to move on a single orbit.
> 
> Clearly you personally disagree with this - this would seem to put you in the vasy minority in the world of detailing however, where the PC is widely (and correctly) regarded as a dual action machine.*
> 
> Yes, I have noticed that main debate among DW-ers in this thread is not on actual OP's subject but looking to crucify him for a single sentence out of whole much bigger text. It is irrelevant whether his sentence and his understanding in that regard is absolutely correct, what is relevant is that he is correct that XC 3401 VRG achieves much higher level of correction and level of gloss that PC could ever achieve. Those that do not have experience with it will not know what I am talking about, hence one of reasons behind my comment.
> 
> He is happy to writeup on something nobody else on this board did. Yet you are greeting him with knives. Talk about manners. Yet you did not say a word on that. To be able to preach to one you should be preaching equally to all.
> 
> While still on same subject, please read up, if you haven't already TH0001's thread on Autopia about his experiments what takes out more clear, PC, rotary, or wet sanding as measured by PTG. You will find he claims PC takes out most even though it does not correct as much. He theorizes that is because pad on PC is "dipping" into uneven surfaces, "filling" them as it is trying to work. So, maybe OP was incorrect, but also maybe it seems he was not that far off, was he?
> 
> So do DW-ers crucify those that are not 100% correct all the time? If yes I have a bad feeling not a single member will be left standing.
> 
> *I dont believe anyone in this thread was in anyway "getting out knives" - simply expressing concern at one sentence, and pointing this out to the OP and opening it for discussion - a discussion which I put my part across in also, having experienced all three of the styles of machine. Not only this, I believe the wider picture of the review was greeted very warmly, also by myself, if you care to read the original first sentence in my post.
> 
> I have already ready up on the Autopia posts to which you refer, very interesting indeed, and while I agree with some (the results themselves are undeniable), the ability to strike through with a PC IMHO blows the filling arguments straight into the weeds (not wishing to mince my words here). However, the post on Autopia is in fact one of the most interesting I have read in quite some time (as I would expect from the OP of that thread), and his theories are obviously very educated. I remain however unconvinced that the PC is a tool which is filling, although the jiggling motion of the pad I can quite happily see is removing more clear by putting uneven pressure on hte abarsives and this causing regions of "deep digs".
> 
> I dont think DW'ers crucify posters for mistakes, certainly they do try to eneter into a discussion about them, and I will happily discuss detailing until the cows come home.  And indeed, the rapid growth of this forum shows that it, its admin, its creators and its members must be doing something right, would you not agree?*


----------



## kk1966

Zoran: The only time you ever seem to want to post is when you wish to start an argument or be rude to people....why do you bother...have you nothing else to do????


----------



## *MAGIC*

Totally spot on Dave


----------



## AndyC

Can we all chill please chaps - this is a post reviewing a polisher not a row about what it is or isn't. 

Thanks.


----------



## Eurogloss

That's exactly what i was thinking ! Here i am trying to post a Review on the Flex 
XC 3401 VRG and it gets hijacked by a number of opinions which most of the time are irrelevant !

I am simply trying to share my personal experience with all members of this forum on how the Flex XC 3401 VRG works on it's paint correction abilities !

And because i had an opinion regarding the correction abilities of a RO almost everyone had a hostile behavior !

I have since amended my Review regarding RO's ! Not Flex !

I have never been rude to other members of this forum, and if i have an opinion be it wrong or right it's only my opinion that doesn't mean that it counts !

Everytime there was a member disagreeing with me i have always said no disrespect to other members on this forum !

I don't see why so many people on this forum take it so seriously !
Everyone has a right to have there own opinion there is no need for rudeness or disrespect . That's why we share ideas on forums !


Regards Mario


----------



## ZoranC

Dave KG said:


> Disagree... the definition of dual action refers to (in the world of detailing, lest we not forget that machines were around long before detailing for the purposes of other crafts) a tool where the pad can spin or osicllate. Be this spinning forced or free, it matters not. Both the Flex and the PC can happily be regarded as dual action machines. A rotary by contrast is very much a single action tool - the pad can only spin as it is constrained to move on a single orbit.
> 
> Clearly you personally disagree with this - this would seem to put you in the vasy minority in the world of detailing however, where the PC is widely (and correctly) regarded as a dual action machine


PC might be in the detailing world widely referred to as "dual action polisher", but not correctly. There is only one definition of what dual action tool is and PC does not meet it. Just because somebody long time ago incorrectly started referring to it as "dual action" and hordes of followers started repeating that in unison without giving it a thought that does not make it correctly referred to as dual action tool.

This is not about me personally disagreeing about it. It is about facts. It either meets the definition or it does not, as simple as that, and it does not.

That is why not just me, but also number of really technical people in the industry, some of which have been involved in design of new generation of "PCs" do say it is not a dual action.

Just like it is widely but incorrectly being called polisher when it is actually a sander come polisher (Porter Cable themselves call it first and foremost a sander).

There is only one tool we commonly use that manufacturer themselves calls "dual action polisher for automotive industry". It is Flex XC 3401 VRG. No other.

P.S. It is interesting you feel the need to straighten me up on tools in this industry when you know quite well if nothing else tools are my forte.


----------



## ZoranC

Krystal-Kleen said:


> Zoran: The only time you ever seem to want to post is when you wish to start an argument or be rude to people....why do you bother...have you nothing else to do????


Marc, we have different perception. Could that all be because I do not post unless there is something to add and anything beside being ditto head can be easily labeled as "against the grain"?

I can not control how you choose to perceive things nor that should stop the discussion.


----------



## ZoranC

AndyC said:


> ... this is a post reviewing a polisher not a row about what it is or isn't.


This is one of the rare times when I will say "ditto".


----------



## superstring

ZoranC said:


> PC might be in the detailing world widely referred to as "dual action polisher", but not correctly. There is only one definition of what dual action tool is and PC does not meet it. Just because somebody long time ago incorrectly started referring to it as "dual action" and hordes of followers started repeating that in unison without giving it a thought that does not make it correctly referred to as dual action tool.
> 
> This is not about me personally disagreeing about it. It is about facts. It either meets the definition or it does not, as simple as that, and it does not.
> 
> That is why not just me, but also number of really technical people in the industry, some of which have been involved in design of new generation of "PCs" do say it is not a dual action.
> 
> Just like it is widely but incorrectly being called polisher when it is actually a sander come polisher (Porter Cable themselves call it first and foremost a sander).
> 
> There is only one tool we commonly use that manufacturer themselves calls "dual action polisher for automotive industry". It is Flex XC 3401 VRG. No other.
> 
> P.S. It is interesting you feel the need to straighten me up on tools in this industry when you know quite well if nothing else tools are my forte.


Hey Zoran

You go on about the PC not being a "dual action polisher" because it doesn't fit the definition, but you fail to state the "definition". I, for one, would like to know what the/your "definition" of a DA machine is??


----------



## ZoranC

superstring said:


> You go on about the PC not being a "dual action polisher" because it doesn't fit the definition, but you fail to state the "definition". I, for one, would like to know what the/your "definition" of a DA machine is??


Definition of "dual action" is extension of definition what "single action" machines are. Single action machine is one that has only one controlled component (action) of pads momevement. Dual action machine is one that has two controlled components to movement of the pad (action).

Purest example of single action is rotary. Less obvious example of that is Cyclo as path is bit more complex but still there is only one controlled action to it.

PC is less obvious but still has only one controlled component to it, random orbit. Yes, it will do kinda circles if you apply next to zero pressure to it (pure laws of physics), but it is not controlled and moment you apply pressure, under regular working conditions, it will be nothing but jiggling, just random orbit, a single controlled component, thus it does not meet definition in it's pure form.

Confusion was introduced when random orbit sanders were introduced and it got carried over from there. But they are not one and same. Difference becomes obvious on tools that can have forced component turned off, like Festool RO 150 FEQ, Bosch 1250DEVS, and Makita BO6040. With forced mode off they work just like PC does. Does that mean when forced mode is on do they become "triple action" tools (and XC 3401 VRG together with them because it has forced mode always on)? Of course not.

So if we are going to happily call PC a dual action tool then we should merrily call rest of them "triple action tool". And if we are not going to call XC 3401 VRG triple action tool then we should not call PC dual action one but a single action one whether we like losing a point or not.


----------



## Eurogloss

*This is what i got from the Meguiar's web site ![/B]

Click here to go to meguiars.com home page Car Crazy Car Hobby Community

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Working with a machine versus working with your hands

1. Which is better for applying cleaners, polishes and waxes, machines like the rotary buffer, Meguiar's G-110, Dual-Action polisher or the tried and true method of applying products by hand?

2. What's the difference between?

*Dual-Action polisher
*Orbital buffer
*Rotary buffer

* Dual-Action polisher
* Orbital buffer
* Rotary buffer

Dual-Action polishers and Orbital buffers

The motors and drive units on these two types of polisher's oscillate in an eccentric circular motion. This type of motion is much safer to the paint because it's virtually impossible to apply too much concentrated pressure in one place at one time. Chances are good that when too much pressure is applied, the oscillating action will come to a stop thereby protecting the finish.

Because these types of machines oscillate instead of rotate, they will not instill the dreaded buffer swirls or holograms into your finish as long as you use the appropriate chemicals, buffing pads and bonnets. This safety feature makes these machines highly popular with enthusiasts who would like to use a machine but at the same time, are afraid of burning or inflicting swirls into their car's finish.

Both the G-100 and Orbital buffers offer a number of benefits:

* Uncomplicated - Remove from box, attach buffing pad or bonnet, plug in, turn on, start buffing
* Versatile - Can be used for cleaning, polishing, and applying waxes.
* Takes most of the labor out of the process, the machine does the work, all you do is hold it.
* Faster, more thorough - you can cover more area and do a better job with a machine.
* Creates a more uniform, higher gloss finish than your hands.
* Pushes polishing oils and protective waxes into the pores and microscopic surface imperfections far better than your hands can ever accomplish.

In recent years, the Porter Cable Dual-Action polisher (G-100) has become the machine of choice over the older style Orbital buffers for a number of different reasons:

* Smaller size and lighter weight makes them easier for anyone to use.
* Very easy to control, requires no previous experience or skill to use correctly.
* Smaller size enables you to work on small panels and tight areas easier with better control.
* More options for buffing pads and bonnets.
* Velcro® interface makes changing between pads fast and easy.

Rotary buffers

Rotary buffers are drastically different in the way they work compared to Dual-action polishers and Orbital buffers.

The drive unit used in a rotary buffer is referred to as a direct drive. What this means is the auger, (the threaded part to which the backing plate attaches), is driven directly off the electric motor. This results in a powerful rotating motion. This rotating motion is typically clockwise as you look at the rotary buffer from behind, as though you were using it on a panel.

Because the rotary buffer is a direct drive machine, it can do a lot of work very quickly. By work, we mean, the rotary buffer will remove paint.

Meguiar's understands the average person doesn't want to remove precious paint from their car's finish. However, sometimes removing paint is necessary in order to create a high gloss, defect-free finish. Example: If you have a scratch in your car's finish, say someone keyed your car, or a cat jumped up on the hood and left behind claw scratches. From a horizontal point of view, these scratches would look like this,

In order to remove these scratches, you will need to remove enough paint surrounding the scratches in order to make the surface level. As you can see in this example, removing the scratches will require removing quite a bit of paint material, and in the case of the deep key scratch (where the arrow is pointing), you will not be able to completely remove it without exposing the base, or color coat of paint. This is a situation where you are better off improving the scratch, not completely removing the scratch.

Second Example: Many cars, after being painted, are wet-sanded in order to remove orange peel or to bring the surface to a show car quality finish. After the finish has been sanded, the way you remove the sanding marks is to buff the finish with a cutting compound and a rotary buffer. The cutting compound abrades the paint, removing, or leveling the finish until it's completely flat.

After the surface is buffed flat, it will then be polished with a cleaner/polish like Meguiar's M-83 Dual Action Cleaner/Polish with the rotary buffer to restore a swirl-free, high gloss finish. Rotary buffers are necessary to do both of these procedures because both of these procedures require that some portion of the paint is removed.

Dual-action polishers and Orbital buffers do not have an aggressive enough action to remove small particles of paint in an effort to remove most defects, including sanding marks. This is the same reason Dual-action polishers and Orbital buffers are safe… they don't have an aggressive action, thus they are safe. However, because they are safe (do not have an aggressive action), they are not aggressive enough to remove all but the finest of scratches.

Do not purchase a dual action polisher or orbital buffer hoping to use these to remove major or even minor scratches, as they are just not aggressive enough. They can often be used to remove fine or shallow scratches and swirls, but they will not remove any scratch that is deep enough to place your fingernail into.

Remember, using a rotary buffer successfully requires both skill and experience. If you use a rotary buffer and are not skilled in its use, you can easily apply too much pressure to the paint and burn right through it, requiring a new paint job. This same result can happen if you use a buffing pad attached to an electric drill.

3. Will an orbital buffer work with your products?

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Call Meguiar's Customer Care TOLL FREE 1.800.347.5700 • © Copyright 1901-2008. Meguiar's, Inc.*


----------



## superstring

Eurogloss said:


> After the surface is buffed flat, it will then be polished with a cleaner/polish like Meguiar's M-83 Dual Action Cleaner/Polish with the rotary buffer to restore a swirl-free, high gloss finish. Rotary buffers are necessary to do both of these procedures because both of these procedures require that some portion of the paint is removed.
> 
> Dual-action polishers and Orbital buffers do not have an aggressive enough action to remove small particles of paint in an effort to remove most defects, including sanding marks. This is the same reason Dual-action polishers and Orbital buffers are safe… they don't have an aggressive action, thus they are safe. However, because they are safe (do not have an aggressive action), they are not aggressive enough to remove all but the finest of scratches.
> 
> Do not purchase a dual action polisher or orbital buffer hoping to use these to remove major or even minor scratches, as they are just not aggressive enough. They can often be used to remove fine or shallow scratches and swirls, but they will not remove any scratch that is deep enough to place your fingernail into.
> 
> © Copyright 1901-2008. Meguiar's, Inc.


Just to muddy the waters a bit more, here's the Autopia thread previously alluded to by ZoranC. I think everyone participating in this thread will find it a fascinating read. 

Wetsanding vs. Rotary vs. PC - Which removes more paint? The answer may shock you!


----------



## honda-r

Very interesting post there. We always thought DAs are safer for polishing. They probably generate less heat while polishing/compounding compare to rotaries.


----------



## Fly bye

superstring said:


> Wetsanding vs. Rotary vs. PC - Which removes more paint? The answer may shock you!


This doesn't prove anything. There are a lot of variables to get a positive conclusion.

The results in that thread are in no way, shape or form, scientific or conclusive.


----------



## superstring

Fly bye said:


> This doesn't prove anything. There are a lot of variables to get a positive conclusion.
> 
> The results in that thread are in no way, shape or form, scientific or conclusive.


If you read through the thread you'll see the OP makes no claims to the effect that the test is ********** or scientifically conclusive. I don't understand the defensive tone of your post. Don't you think it makes an interesting starting point for discussion and more experimentation?


----------



## djblue

Being an unexperienced person, regarding polishing, i'm seeking a dual-action polisher. If you had to choose between the : Makita BO 6040 and Flex XC 3401 VRG, wich one would you choose, and why? As long has i was able to tell, the Makita has only one size pad available, right? With the Flex, it's possible to change the pad for smaller one? Well, i'm in Portugal, and i don't know where to buy these acessories...


----------



## PJS

Makita is probably a better bet due to the gearing being internal rather than in the backing plate like the Flex's.
Flex is very powerful - more like a halfway house between full on rotary, and a good DA.
I prefer the design of the Flex - very rotary-like, whereas the Makita isn't too far off a PC/UDM/etc designwise.
Makita has 6" BP, whereas the Flex, iirc, has a 5.5" one now.
Either way, I'd be looking to modify either to use the Edge adapter and pads, save faffing around with all this velcro crap.
Mind you, since it's the only system I know due to the choice made for the Cyclo, maybe velcro isn't ALL bad - but it is more of a pain in the butt than the double sided Edge pads, or custom versions should you want or need.


----------



## Original Poster

Excellent review and the results speak for themselves!

Defiantly a contender at the top end of the scale in my opinion!


----------



## djblue

PJS said:


> Makita is probably a better bet due to the gearing being internal rather than in the backing plate like the Flex's.
> Flex is very powerful - more like a halfway house between full on rotary, and a good DA.
> I prefer the design of the Flex - very rotary-like, whereas the Makita isn't too far off a PC/UDM/etc designwise.
> Makita has 6" BP, whereas the Flex, iirc, has a 5.5" one now.
> Either way, I'd be looking to modify either to use the Edge adapter and pads, save faffing around with all this velcro crap.
> Mind you, since it's the only system I know due to the choice made for the Cyclo, maybe velcro isn't ALL bad - but it is more of a pain in the butt than the double sided Edge pads, or custom versions should you want or need.


Do we realy need to use smaller pad's or the one the machine has is more then enough?


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## PJS

Smaller pads might be more useful on wing mirrors or tighter areas of bumpers or curved panels.
Probably a case of personal preference rather than a hard and fast rule which must be adhered to religiously.


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## djblue

PJS said:


> Smaller pads might be more useful on wing mirrors or tighter areas of bumpers or curved panels.
> Probably a case of personal preference rather than a hard and fast rule which must be adhered to religiously.


This is something that raised doubt in me, but the main issue is that, i think i will not be able to by the adapters for the Edge 2000 system. From USA they won't ship to Portugal... unless there's some way to buy them in Europe, that i don't know of.


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## PJS

No reason why Edge won't sell you their adapters - Portugal is an EU member state, so enjoys all that goes with that status.


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## djblue

... any Edge retailer in Europe? Or do i have to buy it directly from a "online shop" from USA?


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## PJS

What are you looking for - if you go with the adapter, you'll need to use their pads.
Have you decided which machine you're going for, as that'll make a difference too.
Deal with Edge directly yourself, since you'll be able to discuss what pads they can customise for your needs, etc.


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## Guest

The wait is over!

Edge 2000 Flex adapter is now available. 

For purchase online only at:

http://edgepadsonline.com/e2kflco.html


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## Eurogloss

Thought i add this to this review ! 
Flex Video in action ! Whilst doing a paint correction on this Nissan Skyline GTR 34 in Sydney last year ! Yes , i do travel a lot !

Regards Mario


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## Guest

Hi Mario
The cheapest I can find the Flex for on the internet is around £309 ! Yikes, I bought a Milwaukee AP12QE for £130, and could get a couple of Kestrels and still have some change left over! Do you know why its so expensive, and is it really worth that much? 

Cheers, :thumb:


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## Nickos

It's a cool machine, if it ever gets warmer i may be able to use it again!


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## caledonia

Nickos said:


> It's a cool machine, if it ever gets warmer i may be able to use it again!


Nickos.
I have recently purchased one have you any idea what the numbers correspond to in RPM.

Gordon.


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## caledonia

Veedub18 said:


> Hi Mario
> The cheapest I can find the Flex for on the internet is around £309 ! Yikes, I bought a Milwaukee AP12QE for £130, and could get a couple of Kestrels and still have some change left over! Do you know why its so expensive, and is it really worth that much?
> 
> Cheers, :thumb:


I agree but it is the wrong time to purchase one at the moment with the monetary markets been like they are.

But it is down to German build quality and the direct drive. Thats probably why there are expensive also.
Gordon.


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## Eurogloss

Veedub18 said:


> Hi Mario
> The cheapest I can find the Flex for on the internet is around £309 ! Yikes, I bought a Milwaukee AP12QE for £130, and could get a couple of Kestrels and still have some change left over! Do you know why its so expensive, and is it really worth that much?
> 
> Cheers, :thumb:


I think it's expensive one you are paying for the name , two technology and three because of the markets around the world .

I think it is worth every dollar or should i say Euro !
It will do what your Rotary and RO do !

You have obviously seen my video clip that should give you an indication of it's capabilities !

Mario


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## Eurogloss

caledonia said:


> I agree but it is the wrong time to purchase one at the moment with the monetary markets been like they are.
> 
> But it is down to German build quality and the direct drive. Thats probably why there are expensive also.
> Gordon.


I agree with you on that one Gordon , in Australia it sells for $ 825.00 AUD now that's expensive !

The Importer of the Flex has increased the price by 25% that's just a rip off !

I am glad i got mine before the increase !

Mario


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