# Negotiating a contract



## Gazjs (Nov 26, 2009)

Without mentioning any figures, I will refer to all values of money as x,y,z etc. 

The background ... Just completed my masters degree at university in civil/structural engineering. Researching average salaries for this professions from a reputable company I found the average to be X.

Happy to earn around this figure in a job I would enjoy, I told myself I would settle for 20% less than this figure, so amount Y.

I have now received an offer for a job I know I will enjoy, very much. But the the wage offered is Z, 25% less than Y and 45% less than average.

I really want the job, but would like to negotiate CLOSER to scenario Y. 

How is best to go about this? Does it sound like I even have a chance? 

Any advice greatly appreciated :thumb:


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## SteveTDCi (Feb 8, 2006)

To many x and y's for me, either accept it and see what happens, if the money really isn't what you want and cannot afford to live on then it's not even worth considering. Whilst you might be able to push for more money 45% is going to be unacheiveable, money isn't everything, job satisfaction is more important.


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## S63 (Jan 5, 2007)

SteveTDCi said:


> To many x and y's for me, either accept it and see what happens, if the money really isn't what you want and cannot afford to live on then it's not even worth considering. Whilst you might be able to push for more money 45% is going to be unacheiveable, money isn't everything, job satisfaction is more important.


Wise words. I clearly remember my interview for my last chauffeuring role, the money offered was good but not what I had hoped for, I told my soon to be boss this and asked him to give me the opportunity to prove my extra worth to him over the course of the first year and then re-evaluate the situation, happy to say it paid off.

Good luck:thumb:


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## Gazjs (Nov 26, 2009)

Thanks for the advice both. I agree, money isn't everything. Just seemed a little under valued to the rest of the market. 

Rightly enough, I know I will enjo the job, very much so. I am going to make a call today, try negotiate a little, or as said, ask to prove I'm worth a bit more. The role comes with a probationary period, so perhaps I'll ask to review the situation further at this point.

Thanks for the advice :thumb:


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## SteveTDCi (Feb 8, 2006)

Be honest with the then, just say the money isn't quite what you expect for that role, say you are willing to work at that salary for a period of time, then if you have proved your worth then a pay rise should be justified.

Although in the current market it seems employers are taking the opportunity to reduce salaries due to the number of people looking for jobs. Its always easier to find work when in work, if you are unemployed there is always the chance you could accept something just for the sake of it.


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

To be honest, we see this quite regular. 

Once people leave University they all have sky high figures in their head what they are worth, and to be honest, it's rarely accurate. 

They usually have plucked figures from the sky, based it on roles that they aren't yet proven to be capable, used the average of experienced men as a guide or just failed to notice the sector they are aiming for isn't bursting with demand or positions. 

It would amaze me to see any negotiations resulting in a near 45% increase. 

Likewise it wouldn't surprise me if the company said that is the going rate, take it or leave it. 

Best of luck though. You'll know better how many similar roles there are in your area and if you can afford to push too hard and risk having to walk away.


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## Alzay (Jul 16, 2008)

My company does that, they pay less for Class 1 Engineers than ever before, they seem to know that people are desperate for jobs so offer what they want. The gap can be nearly 20 grand from a person who has worked for 30 years to a graduate right out of Uni.


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## Gazjs (Nov 26, 2009)

Kerr said:


> To be honest, we see this quite regular.
> 
> Once people leave University they all have sky high figures in their head what they are worth, and to be honest, it's rarely accurate.
> 
> ...


I understand your logic here, and I realise many people in the situation would have sky high figures. I have never earned in my life though, and thought I had a really achievable idea in my mind. This was based on me willing to settle for a wage 4.5K below the average, and what other jobs in the industry have offered.

Then to be offered 4.5k below this settlement again for the job did take me a little by surprise. I want the job, and will really enjoy it, so as have been said, I may try and negotiate a wage review after the 3 month probationary period they have placed on the job.

Thanks for the advice, and I fully understand where you are coming from :thumb:


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## Gazjs (Nov 26, 2009)

SteveTDCi said:


> Be honest with the then, just say the money isn't quite what you expect for that role, say you are willing to work at that salary for a period of time, then if you have proved your worth then a pay rise should be justified.
> 
> Although in the current market it seems employers are taking the opportunity to reduce salaries due to the number of people looking for jobs. Its always easier to find work when in work, if you are unemployed there is always the chance you could accept something just for the sake of it.


This seems to be the way to go, and I agree with the second statement also. The director was one of the nicest people I have ever dealt with, I plan on calling him this afternoon, try to reach som conclusion.



Alzay said:


> My company does that, they pay less for Class 1 Engineers than ever before, they seem to know that people are desperate for jobs so offer what they want. The gap can be nearly 20 grand from a person who has worked for 30 years to a graduate right out of Uni.


I guess it's the sign of times isn't it  I know of people in the class who have achieved the salary I would be willing to settle for, some who have more than exceeded it. So I know what I am asking for isn't unheard of.

As been mentioned though, it's a job, and what better way to work up the salary rage than showing my worth.

Thanks again all


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## Bill58 (Jul 5, 2010)

Just a comparison from another profession. In teaching the average salary is £34,000. A new teacher will start on £21,000 which is 38% below the average salary. It can take about 7 years to reach the average salary.


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## Gazjs (Nov 26, 2009)

Bill58 said:


> Just a comparison from another profession. In teaching the average salary is £34,000. A new teacher will start on £21,000 which is 38% below the average salary. It can take about 7 years to reach the average salary.


Nice comparison, and good to know of a timescale etc etc ...

The average I am basing mine on however, is the graduate average. The professional average is many tens of thousands over this. Mainly due to the pay in the oil/gas sector which admittedly, does bump it up a fair whack.


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## Derekh929 (Aug 28, 2011)

Gazjs said:


> Thanks for the advice both. I agree, money isn't everything. Just seemed a little under valued to the rest of the market.
> 
> Rightly enough, I know I will enjo the job, very much so. I am going to make a call today, try negotiate a little, or as said, ask to prove I'm worth a bit more. The role comes with a probationary period, so perhaps I'll ask to review the situation further at this point.
> 
> Thanks for the advice :thumb:


Get a CV into WoodGroup or Amec in Aberdeen in the offshore structural engineering get in the door there and you are set for life, but gaing ecperience first is good and mr 63 has given wise words there


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## Rob_Quads (Jul 17, 2006)

Gazjs said:


> This was based on me willing to settle for a wage 4.5K below the average, and what other jobs in the industry have offered.


Why don't you apply for these other jobs then?


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## Gazjs (Nov 26, 2009)

Rob_Quads said:


> Why don't you apply for these other jobs then?


I have :thumb: just the job offer in question, had the salary listed as "competitive" so put in for that also. Which now I understand the role, sounds so much better than the other jobs :lol: I think for pure enjoyment I am willing to settle after a little bit of negotiating. I thought the stressful and nervous part of a job would be the interviews :lol:


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## Gazjs (Nov 26, 2009)

Derekh929 said:


> Get a CV into WoodGroup or Amec in Aberdeen in the offshore structural engineering get in the door there and you are set for life, but gaing ecperience first is good and mr 63 has given wise words there


Thanks for the advice, I have applied to both these companies at the beginning of the year. Just not heard anything yet. Totally agree with these having someone set up for life, they offerings are so much greater than other jobs, as expected though.


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## Gazjs (Nov 26, 2009)

Update ... Phoned the company. Got laughed at, told no chance, phone managing director if you want to discuss. 

Thanks for all the advice, job is not for me though, I believe I am worth more than the salary (without being too big headed :lol 

For the record, average graduate starting salary of civil/structural 26.5k. 
I was aiming for 22k but got offered only 17.5k. 

Of my classmates they have secured jobs ranging from 22-35k. 

Think I have made the correct decision. Thanks again for all the advice, greatly appreciated. :thumb:


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## Rob_Quads (Jul 17, 2006)

How many of your classmates don't have jobs?


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## Gazjs (Nov 26, 2009)

I would say perhaps the split is around 50:50. According to the University, the Oil/Gas industry started negotiations very early this year, hence the split. Still lots of applications open and I have several interesting jobs still pending. So fingers crossed. 

I done a summer placement every year also, so got some experience down.


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## Derekh929 (Aug 28, 2011)

Gazjs said:


> Thanks for the advice, I have applied to both these companies at the beginning of the year. Just not heard anything yet. Totally agree with these having someone set up for life, they offerings are so much greater than other jobs, as expected though.


Bang it in again they sometimes don't make it past first base, next time could be lucky


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## Gruffs (Dec 10, 2007)

£17.5 is technician level. Engineer should start around what you were aiming for at HNC/D level. 

Graduate? £24-40k depending on role, specialism and talent. 

But, to be honest. You will learn far, far more by being a tech for 2-3 years before taking on any responsibility. 

Where abouts are you?


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## Gazjs (Nov 26, 2009)

Gruffs said:


> £17.5 is technician level. Engineer should start around what you were aiming for at HNC/D level.
> 
> Graduate? £24-40k depending on role, specialism and talent.
> 
> ...


Thanks for this. Agree on the learning side of things.

Within my summer placements, I chose to experience this side of the job. Getting down and dirty with the ground workers and subcontractors etc, and I loved every minute of it. Learned so much, and asked so many questions. Wanted to get an appreciation of just what is involved with different tasks etc, so if ever I was to supervise one of these actions later in life, I would know exactly how difficult etc it could be.

I have even told myself now, that no mater what level I end up at in life, I won't hesitate to jump in and get my hands dirty :lol:

I am in Fife. Scotland.


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## tamkingho200 (Feb 17, 2013)

Lucky you are in a good pay area, I could tell you that if you in South Wales , you probably would not get 22k, not even 20 !I am a master graduate and you probably have to consider how much job is available these day , if you really think you worth more, I would just wish you luck , even tho the job might not be what you want , 17.5k would probably better than you earning nth after graduate for the time being!


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## Gruffs (Dec 10, 2007)

I don't mean to be rude but I am going to be blunt. 

Having gone through a Masters, and all that should get you, why don't you move to where the work is?


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## Gazjs (Nov 26, 2009)

Gruffs said:


> I don't mean to be rude but I am going to be blunt.
> 
> Having gone through a Masters, and all that should get you, why don't you move to where the work is?


Me, or above?

I have applied to jobs all over the UK. Don't care where I work :lol:
My first interview ended up being in Cambridge, but being my first interview, nerves took over


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

Aberdeen is the place to go without a doubt. 

Easiest place in the UK to get a job. 0.4 job seekers per job. 

Second highest average salary behind London.


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## Gruffs (Dec 10, 2007)

Where in Cambridge?

Apply again, you never know.


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## Gazjs (Nov 26, 2009)

Mott MacDonald buildings and infrastructure team. Don't know the area at all, office was directly across from the train station.


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## willwander (Nov 30, 2012)

If you have skills that are in demand then don't sell yourself short.
Many companies take advantage of graduates thinking they will be 'glad of the experience' when in truth they are just taking advantage of cheap staff, I see it all the time in IT industry.
Ignore people who say you should be glad of a job and £20k or whatever is fantastic I wish I could earn that, you are smart and have worked hard and deserve the rewards, aim high.

Obviously this only works your skills are in demand, if not then yeah be realistic times are hard in some industries at the moment.


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## Delboy_Trotter (Jun 7, 2007)

Fair play if you think you can get it then great - just don't get dis-heartened when you don't achieve it.

With the best will in the work, i hope you do, but i've been to the school of hard knock and got a degree from the university of life.......

To put it into some kind of perspective - Went to college full time and did an OND (well BTEC) in engineering, went to uni for a year, decided that sucked so i got an apprenticeship.

The company that i did my Apprenticeship with sponsored me to do a HNC on day release at Uni - That was hard work, working 6-2, 2-10 alternate weeks on shift and going to Uni....

Follow on from that and due to the economic times, i got made redundant 6 months after my apprenticeship finished...

Then ended up taking a tech level job in an industry i knew nothing about for £15k a year....

Roll forward 3 years and after an early payrise im now on 20k a year, well under the average for what we do - the CEO attitude...if you dont like it go swivel...

Don't get down when you get offered less, its a sign of the times and Grad jobs are hot to trot, for the 6 Grads we took this year we had 150 apply....

Good luck though!


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## PaulN (Jan 17, 2008)

Gazjs said:


> I understand your logic here, and I realise many people in the situation would have sky high figures. I have never earned in my life though, and thought I had a really achievable idea in my mind. This was based on me willing to settle for a wage 4.5K below the average, and what other jobs in the industry have offered.
> 
> Then to be offered 4.5k below this settlement again for the job did take me a little by surprise. I want the job, and will really enjoy it, so as have been said, I may try and negotiate a wage review after the 3 month probationary period they have placed on the job.
> 
> Thanks for the advice, and I fully understand where you are coming from :thumb:


Without knowing all the details ie what X figure is in your mind.. its hard to advise....

but can i just confirm, you have no work experience, and just graduated and now are looking at average wages in a profession you only have a piece of paper for?


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## Derek Mc (Jun 27, 2006)

Salary is one of the worst methods of judging "worth" going. it would be far better to take a role at your lower proposed salary, earn success then move for a far higher pay packet, than sit on the unemployment line.

Salaries in all sectors have in real terms and headline figures dropped since the recession began and new starts on the ladder are no different.

If I tell you that in my sector salaries have dropped around 25% since 2006 and that when I hear of people making applications on too many occasions they are faced with a scenario as below.

Job on offer caries a £35K salary
an unemployed applicant offers to take the position for £25K for the first year to prove them selves
Second applicant at interview is told this by potential employer and undercuts this by a further £2K

Employers market out there, get the experience first then command the big bucks! always the best route IMHO


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## Gazjs (Nov 26, 2009)

Delboy_Trotter said:


> Fair play if you think you can get it then great - just don't get dis-heartened when you don't achieve it.
> 
> With the best will in the work, i hope you do, but i've been to the school of hard knock and got a degree from the university of life.......
> 
> ...


Many thanks for the good luck. I totally realise that the market is completely different now and I really do hope that my decision pays off. It's looking good already TBH as well, with another 3 interviews lined up for the coming weeks.

Thanks again



PaulN said:


> Without knowing all the details ie what X figure is in your mind.. its hard to advise....
> 
> but can i just confirm, you have no work experience, and just graduated and now are looking at average wages in a profession you only have a piece of paper for?


To start with, I just used the x y etc etc. further on, after realising I wouldn't be taking the job anyway and potentially upsetting an employer I stated figures.

I have applied to various jobs. The ones that stated salarys, ranged from between 23-35K. The latter being in oil/gas where the higher wage is fully expected, and one in which I fully understand is not achievable or comparable to the job I applied for.

Further to this. As an engineer, there is an institute of engineers, in which all employers will want there employees to be become both chartered under, and follow set guidelines. Between this, a newspaper survey and other jobs on offer, and indeed jobs classmates had accepted, the average salary was shown as 26,500 for a masters graduate civil engineer.

Looking for a job I would enjoy more an anything, I am/was prepared to work for around 22-23K. After all, I'm young, still learning and want to enjoy myself in work while I can. I believe this was a very fair reflection and aim to achieve.

The job in question, displayed there salary as competitive. So I applied, loved the sound of the job, got the offer, oh dear, 17,500. After consulting careers service etc, I was told a mere 1% of engineering graduates earn less than 20,000.

I approached the company, got laughed at, told no chance, end of story.

As for your question. Yes I only have a peic of paper (masters in Civil Engineering) I have what I would call experience, working every summer throughout my degree as an assistant site engineer on large housing projects and the salary I am aiming for, isn't the average profession salary. Is the average graduate starting salary.

It all very complicated lol. 


Derek Mc said:


> Salary is one of the worst methods of judging "worth" going. it would be far better to take a role at your lower proposed salary, earn success then move for a far higher pay packet, than sit on the unemployment line.
> 
> Salaries in all sectors have in real terms and headline figures dropped since the recession began and new starts on the ladder are no different.
> 
> ...


Spot on with the first part, which Is why I already had lowered my expectations. Just these weren't being met either lol.

I even tried the whole, let me prove myself over three months then negotiate .... Didn't work either :lol:


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## brettblade (Jul 23, 2012)

I took a job that was lower paid than the average for the role, 2 years on and the salary has increased by over 50%, and the future prospects are looking good as well. I could have easily turned down the initial figure, but was glad of the work!


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## deano93tid (May 8, 2013)

It's a lot easier to find another job on more money when you're in a job, try and push for more money prior to accepting as companies now seem to be incredibly tight and rarely even offer pay rises and take what they offer.


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## Gazjs (Nov 26, 2009)

Would just like to draw some conclusions on this now. 

Firstly. Thanks to all who contributed and gave me something to think about. I agree with all comments. Work is hard to find, it's easier to find when in a job, I'm only a graduate and money isn't everything. I agree with it all. 

Secondly, the risk I took has well and truly paid off. The job I set out to get above all else gave me an interview at yesterday morning. I was offered the job this afternoon with a contract even I couldn't have dreamt of achieving. 

So once again, thanks to all and most importantly to anyone else in this same situation, don't sell yourself short. If you have an idea what you would like to achieve in life, then don't change those plans for NO ONE. Stick it out, stay confident and be positive about yourself. 


Thanks all :wave::thumb::thumb:


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## Gruffs (Dec 10, 2007)

Sometimes the right attitude earns more than a piece of paper alone . 

Well done and good luck.

Watch out for the rainbow paint.


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## Gazjs (Nov 26, 2009)

Gruffs said:


> Sometimes the right attitude earns more than a piece of paper alone .
> 
> Well done and good luck.
> 
> Watch out for the rainbow paint.


Many thanks :thumb:

I'm sure ill need to watch out for a few of those tricks :lol:


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