# Acid vs Alkali Kindness to wheels...



## Destroyers (Aug 30, 2007)

I was speaking to my neighbour yesterday and got on about cleaning wheels, I said I had plenty acid-free wheel cleaner should he need any. To cut a long story short he claimed that acid forumulations are kinder alloy wheels more than alkali based solutions. As he said alloy was the only metal that alkali reacts with (or something..)

He has a chemistry degree so I was not going to try disagree with him..

Could anyone shed any light on this? Any chemists? I was under the impression that alkali wheel cleaners are on the general much more safer than the equivilant strength acid forumulations. Obviously a mild acid vs an extremely strong alkali would be much safer, before anyone says that


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## Sandro (Mar 16, 2008)

as far as i know acids and alkali at similar points on the Ph scale are pretty much the same, but the chemist might be right


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## Destroyers (Aug 30, 2007)

Hehe he also actually said something about the pH scale being totally useless when it comes to very strong alkali's vs strong acids and something or another, he said the wheel cleaners would either be fully at the bottom end of the pH scale if acid, and at 14 if alkali, then started talking about reverse base logarithms 

I'd really be intrested to see what a chemist says, the world of chemistry just fell apart for me when he said using alkali wheel cleaner is asking for serious trouble :lol: , surely if this is true then a lot of the information and comments on here about people saying "wonder wheels is acid based so don't use it", etc, would be erroneous because since acid is somewhat better at removing brake dust than alkali (obviously it will depend on the forumulation -- but acid is generally accepted as much stronger/quicker at removing brake dust/grime from wheels), and if then the equivilant pH counterparts are the same in terms of reactivity/kindness with the metal -- then it would be the obvious choice to get an acid based cleaner?

My head hurts now :devil:


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## LeeH (Jan 29, 2006)

Both are corrosive so isn't it down to just how 'strong' the particular mix is??


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## Destroyers (Aug 30, 2007)

LeeH said:


> Both are corrosive so isn't it down to just how 'strong' the particular mix is??


Nope, he was basically saying acid is much safer than alkali on alloys!


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## LeeH (Jan 29, 2006)

Destroyers said:


> Nope, he was basically saying acid is much safer than alkali on alloys!


So a stong acid is safer then a weaker alkali???

....I don't get it

How to you compare the Two?


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## Destroyers (Aug 30, 2007)

LeeH said:


> So a stong acid is safer then a weaker alkali???
> 
> ....I don't get it
> 
> How to you compare the Two?


No, he was saying the equivilant strengths (i.e., pH 5 vs pH 9 for example?), acid is safer, as I said in my orig post (as I knew someone would just have to say "so a super strong acid is safer than a super mild alkali" ), if he said that I would not have taken him seriously 

But in short, he implied that the equivilant acid strength was a LOT kinder, not just a bit, if you see what I mean..


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## lanciamug (May 18, 2008)

Well, I am a chemist, but no expert in alloy wheels. Alkali solutions will etch through the protective oxide layer on metal, then eat through the metal! Acids also eat metal (acid+metal=hydroxide+hydrogen). I think the issue your chemist neighbour is refering to is that the oxide layer (which keeps magnesium and aluminium shiny) is resistant to acid. So Iwould tend to agree, both strong acids and strong alkali is bad, but acids are less bad. Both incidently are bad on your skin!! Be careful out there.


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## Stevoraith (Mar 15, 2008)

Hold on, hold on, hold on!!!!

Just because a wheel cleaner is 'acid free' doesn't mean it is alkali!

I'd assume that acid free solutions were closer to neutral (may be wrong of course) so I think this is a little bit of panic over nothing!

Also the fact that lots of people have been using acid free solutions with no damage to wheels suggests that they are not strong alkali solutions so I'd say don't worry!


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## Detail My Ride (Apr 19, 2006)

Acid Free wheel cleaners are generally pH neutral. For example, P21s Wheel Gel is around pH 7 last time I measured it, that is the only cleaner i've measured unfortunately.


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## Alan W (May 11, 2006)

I think we are forgetting something very basic here. Whatever wheel cleaner is being used is being applied to a painted or powder coated wheel and not an unprotected or raw aluminium surface (unless there is kerbing damage to the wheel).

Even a polished rim on an aluminium wheel is probably clear coated to protect the aluminium from corroding which it would do very quickly if left unprotected.

Alan W


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## Guest (Aug 23, 2008)

As Alan says, your applying to a treated surface not an untreated surface.

So whilst your neighbour is right, he forgot about the paint between the product and the alloy (or steel)


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## toni (Oct 30, 2005)

Generally, wheel cleaners, the good ones are PH neutral, that means PH 7.
So they are nor strong acids nor strog alkali.


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## Destroyers (Aug 30, 2007)

Intresting, thanks for the clarification chaps 

All that remains to be asked now, does anyone know how "alkali" autobrites acid-free wheel cleaner is (brite wheels)? I have been using it quite a lot but if it is very strong alkali then I guess I better limit my usage of it!


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## Guest (Aug 23, 2008)

What would be useful to us, the consumer, would be a list of products showing their comparative acidic/alkali values

Anyone have any spare litmus paper lol!?


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## toni (Oct 30, 2005)

I've bought some PH measurement strips. 100 pcs 
Very usefull for testing wheel cleaners and other car care products.

My Sonax Wheel Cleaner Gel is PH 7, for example.


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## Padtwo (Apr 11, 2007)

Stuart2006 said:


> What would be useful to us, the consumer, would be a list of products showing their comparative acidic/alkali values
> 
> Anyone have any spare litmus paper lol!?


Could do with a chemist for that one :lol:

Have got some pH meters at work, some old wonder wheels in the garage, and some of the P21 stuff


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## Sandro (Mar 16, 2008)

if the acids/alkali only effect the metals then as long as ur wheels are in good condition it doesnt matter if its acid or alkali?


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## Glossmax (May 9, 2007)

One other think to remember, alloy wheels are not Aluminium there an alloy!
Pure aluminum wheels exist, but mainly in the USA. A very rare sight on British roads.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alloy


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## 3dr (Mar 1, 2008)

Destroyers said:


> I'd really be intrested to see what a chemist says


there is a Boots on the way home from work mate, i'll see what i can find out :thumb:


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## Destroyers (Aug 30, 2007)

3dr said:


> there is a Boots on the way home from work mate, i'll see what i can find out :thumb:


Now that is my type of humour :thumb:


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