# Correcting a dull repsray



## Alfa147 (Feb 22, 2012)

Hi guys, new here.

Never thought I'd be posting on a detailing forum but I 'attempted' a little go myself and was pleased with the results apart from the side panels, which is what my question is about.

The car is a black Alfa 147 and the guy I bought it from mentioned the sides had a _little_ respray (Will get photos) and they just lack any decent reflection 2nd photo down looks similar to mine.

I masked a section off and attacked it with P1 polish and a sponge and there was no difference whatsoever.

The panel is very smooth and doesn't feel like overspray.

Could this be corrected with a machine polisher instead of my poor arm?

Thanks and Sorry for the longish post.


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## tom-225 (Aug 30, 2009)

i would seudgest a full wet sand and then a machine polish to get this back up to standard. ou may well be lucky in that a machine polish alone would give resonable results though.


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## Alfa147 (Feb 22, 2012)

tom-225 said:


> i would seudgest a full wet sand and then a machine polish to get this back up to standard. ou may well be lucky in that a machine polish alone would give resonable results though.


I'm guessing I should do the machine polishing first? Would the DAS-6 be good enough for the job? Seems to be recommended for newbies such as me. 

Will it need any cutting compound or just polish for the machine polisher alone?

Cheers.


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## Dan J (Jun 18, 2008)

Before you touch it with anything get some paint readings done or you could find yourself making a trip back to the paint shop, I've recently done a jag XKR that had a resprayed bonnet that needed a fair amount of attention, the readings I got from it was shocking, had to go very carefully on it so not to thin the already thin respray,
Will pop a write up of it when I get a minute.

But my advice before you touch it with any grade of compound or polish is get some readings done so you know what you have to play with.


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## Alfa147 (Feb 22, 2012)

Dan J said:


> Before you touch it with anything get some paint readings done or you could find yourself making a trip back to the paint shop, I've recently done a jag XKR that had a resprayed bonnet that needed a fair amount of attention, the readings I got from it was shocking, had to go very carefully on it so not to thin the already thin respray,
> Will pop a write up of it when I get a minute.
> 
> But my advice before you touch it with any grade of compound or polish is get some readings done so you know what you have to play with.


Thank you.

Those paint gauges, expensive little buggers aren't they?

I was thinking of getting a shop to do it but looking at the prices I'm better of investing in a polisher/gauge. And it's not like I can't sell them down the line.

If my paint is sufficient, what am I actually trying to do with the paint? I've got a lot of reading to do, just trying to get a rough idea.


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## Dan J (Jun 18, 2008)

Alfa147 said:


> Thank you.
> 
> Those paint gauges, expensive little buggers aren't they?
> 
> ...


Not as expensive as a respray:thumb:

You could contact a detailer from here that's close to you and for a small fee or possibly free they could do some readings for you so you know what's going on.

If your paints all good and there's plenty there you can either go down the wet sanding route or cut it back with a compounding or medium polishing pad or even wool if needed and some medium cutting compound to level it then jewel it up with a finishing pad and polish.

Firstly though I'd get the readings done then you can be advised more accurately on the method of sorting it safely.


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## Alfa147 (Feb 22, 2012)

Dan J said:


> Not as expensive as a respray:thumb:
> 
> You could contact a detailer from here that's close to you and for a small fee or possibly free they could do some readings for you so you know what's going on.
> 
> ...


Brilliant. Think I'll contact someone from here then.

For a beginner would wet sanding be the last option on that list?

Thanks for the help.


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## Dan J (Jun 18, 2008)

Alfa147 said:


> Brilliant. Think I'll contact someone from here then.
> 
> For a beginner would wet sanding be the last option on that list?
> 
> Thanks for the help.


100% yes, if you haven't any experience in it then leave it to people that have, it can easily go very wrong if your not sure what you are doing.

Pleasure mate always happy to help:thumb:


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## Alfa147 (Feb 22, 2012)

I wanted to uploaded a photo I took today, as you can see the paint doesn't have that 'mirror' reflection, and this has recently been cleaned. The reflections are somewhat distorted also.

I'm looking to get this kit, what ya reckon?Menzerna Intro. Kit

Pic.1 Is the dull side panel
Pic.2 Peeling on the above panel and a closer view of the paint. There appears to be orange peel all over, but I'm told this isn't too uncommon, especially on Alfas?


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## GJM (Jul 19, 2009)

Dan J said:


> Before you touch it with anything get some paint readings done or you could find yourself making a trip back to the paint shop, I've recently done a jag XKR that had a resprayed bonnet that needed a fair amount of attention, the readings I got from it was shocking, had to go very carefully on it so not to thin the already thin respray,
> Will pop a write up of it when I get a minute.
> 
> But my advice before you touch it with any grade of compound or polish is get some readings done so you know what you have to play with.


What sort of readings did you see, any paint job I see it's usually the other way, one the other day read 700 microns


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## Alfa147 (Feb 22, 2012)

Bump.

What do you make of the photos? I've clayed them too.

Another thing I noticed was that when polishing it didn't matter how long I spent with a panel, a 5 second polish would turn out exactly the same as a hard 1 minute polish on a small area. In fact, I used some of that waterless carspray and it looked the same as when I waxed/polished lol.


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## lowejackson (Feb 23, 2006)

Alfa147 said:


> ....I masked a section off and attacked it with P1 polish and a sponge and there was no difference whatsoever.....


When you say P1 and a sponge, what type of sponge?


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## Alfa147 (Feb 22, 2012)

lowejackson said:


> When you say P1 and a sponge, what type of sponge?


Don't worry not a kitchen one.  I purchased a pack of round yellow detailing sponges and a German applicator from CLeanmycar.


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## lowejackson (Feb 23, 2006)

I would tape off a 12" section and give it another go with the P1, when the polish starts to dry up, give it a light spray of water and keep going and repeating this cycle for 3-5 minutes. Give the area a quick wash and then remove the tape and see if it looks any better compared to the rest of the paint. 

Street lighting can be an ideal and free way to check the paint


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## ianFRST (Sep 19, 2006)

id say you need to flat it back, and then polish it up (with a machine)

taking paint readings, wont really tell you much on a painted panel


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## Alfa147 (Feb 22, 2012)

lowejackson said:


> I would tape off a 12" section and give it another go with the P1, when the polish starts to dry up, give it a light spray of water and keep going and repeating this cycle for 3-5 minutes. Give the area a quick wash and then remove the tape and see if it looks any better compared to the rest of the paint.
> 
> Street lighting can be an ideal and free way to check the paint


I'll give it a go.


ianFRST said:


> id say you need to flat it back, and then polish it up (with a machine)
> 
> taking paint readings, wont really tell you much on a painted panel


By sanding?

Thanks for the help


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## Dan J (Jun 18, 2008)

GJM said:


> What sort of readings did you see, any paint job I see it's usually the other way, one the other day read 700 microns


Lowest readings were 61.8, averages were in the 80's/90's, a couple of random 119's in various areas,
Will be doing a write up on it when I get a chance to.


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## Alfa147 (Feb 22, 2012)

Polished up a small square section, I've marked two of the corners in red as it's quite hard to see. There is improvement and hopefully not just where it was dirty.:lol: 

Still got that dull reflection look but hopefully you'll know what I should do from there.

Will the DA get the job done?


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## Eppursimuove (Sep 28, 2010)

Alfa147 said:


> Hi guys, new here.
> 
> Never thought I'd be posting on a detailing forum but I 'attempted' a little go myself and was pleased with the results apart from the side panels, which is what my question is about.
> 
> ...


Ok, a lot of people do not understand automotive paint finishes. SO there is every chance they just sprayed black paint on top of everything rather than do the job properly. When this is done it is always gives a flat appearance. If this is the case, I would sand the "respray" back, see what lurks beneath and do the job properly, ie , primer, base, clear. It's not terribly difficult, and even if you mess up the clear coat bit you can polish it to perfection 9 times out of 10 anyway.


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## Alfa147 (Feb 22, 2012)

Eppursimuove said:


> Ok, a lot of people do not understand automotive paint finishes. SO there is every chance they just sprayed black paint on top of everything rather than do the job properly. When this is done it is always gives a flat appearance. If this is the case, I would sand the "respray" back, see what lurks beneath and do the job properly, ie , primer, base, clear. It's not terribly difficult, and even if you mess up the clear coat bit you can polish it to perfection 9 times out of 10 anyway.


Hi. Did you see the photos of my car I posted? I wouldn't know if it's just the base coat but wouldn't feel confident spraying as it's on both sides.

In one of the photos there's laying peeling off, means nothing to me but you might be able to make something from that,


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## Eppursimuove (Sep 28, 2010)

Aha, no I didn't, well that looks like it has been painted then cleared, which is good, so just flatten it and buff to a nice shine 

Edit, when I say flatten it, I mean sand it with 2000 wet. (Sorry all my terms are from a painter not a polisher perspective.)


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## Alfa147 (Feb 22, 2012)

Eppursimuove said:


> Aha, no I didn't, well that looks like it has been painted then cleared, which is good, so just flatten it and buff to a nice shine
> 
> Edit, when I say flatten it, I mean sand it with 2000 wet. (Sorry all my terms are from a painter not a polisher perspective.)


Cheers mate.

Couple of questions;

1. Do I just wet sand until paint has a white haze? I'm assuming the 2000 grit won't allow me to cut too deep.

2.Will my arm + polish suffice to bring the shine up or will I need a machine polisher?

3. When you say the paint has been cleared, what is this exactly?

Thanks again.


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## Eppursimuove (Sep 28, 2010)

Wetsand the area for a couple minutes, with a piece of paper about 10 x 10 cm, it won't go deep whatsover no, you may even need to sand the area a couple times, dry the area have a look, if it has a nice uniform look about it, proceed to buffing phase. You can get just as good results by hand yes, 2 applications of T cut original will remove all 2000 grit sanding marks.

Clear/cleared means clear coat (what some people call Lacquer but lacquer hasn't actually been used for decades...)

If your clear is soft use T cut metallic instead of T cut original.

Shouldn't take much work to flatten, usually dull clear is the result of over-atomisation, ie too much air pressure or too little fluid flow out of the gun.


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## lowejackson (Feb 23, 2006)

It might be worth asking the bloke who sold you the car if he knows what/why it was resprayed.

I would be tempted to get a DA as hand polishing an entire car is going to take a very long time especially if you want to wet sand everything unless you have arms like Popeye.


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## Alfa147 (Feb 22, 2012)

Eppursimuove said:


> Wetsand the area for a couple minutes, with a piece of paper about 10 x 10 cm, it won't go deep whatsover no, you may even need to sand the area a couple times, dry the area have a look, if it has a nice uniform look about it, proceed to buffing phase. You can get just as good results by hand yes, 2 applications of T cut original will remove all 2000 grit sanding marks.
> 
> Clear/cleared means clear coat (what some people call Lacquer but lacquer hasn't actually been used for decades...)
> 
> ...


Brilliant, I'll give it a go today and report back with pics.



lowejackson said:


> It might be worth asking the bloke who sold you the car if he knows what/why it was resprayed.
> 
> I would be tempted to get a DA as hand polishing an entire car is going to take a very long time especially if you want to wet sand everything unless you have arms like Popeye.


I'll give a section a go by hand for now to see what comes up, if I'm happy then I'll probably invest in the DA.

He was an Indi dealer so didn't too much about it but he did tell me about the resprayed panels. I did do all the checks which came up clear but no idea why both sides could have been resprayed tho, seems like only the lower parts too.

It's been nothing but reliable tho, just need a few small bits and she's sorted.


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## Alfa147 (Feb 22, 2012)

I gave the sanding a go today. Sanded down with the 2000 grit then used the T-cut which got rid of _most_ of the scratches, I then went over with my P1 polish by hand and although the results were a clearer panel, you still get the exact same distorted reflection when standing a few feet away.

Thoughts on next step? Would the DA help me out here or could it be another problem?:buffer:

Pics below


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## lowejackson (Feb 23, 2006)

I am not really sure what is happening and why you are not getting the results. The only thing which I can think of is I was never able to get good results by hand in comparison to using a DA or rotary.

How does the paint look on something like the inner doors which are not normally subject to heavy cleaning or weathering


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## Alfa147 (Feb 22, 2012)

lowejackson said:


> I am not really sure what is happening and why you are not getting the results. The only thing which I can think of is I was never able to get good results by hand in comparison to using a DA or rotary.
> 
> How does the paint look on something like the inner doors which are not normally subject to heavy cleaning or weathering


Hi,

Would it still be the clear coat causing this distortion?

Does the DAS-6 with the "Menzerna Intensive Polish (P085RD 3.02) Cut 3.5 Gloss 3.0" sound like it might get the job done? Or would I be better off with my P1 polish?

I'll have to check the paint on the inside tomorrow with some light but the rest of the car seems fine.

Photo of the bonnet, it's just the sides really. Above the door handles also has the correct reflection.


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## lowejackson (Feb 23, 2006)

Cannot really help with the Menzerna as I only have their Power Gloss compound however their polish range seems to be highly regarded but their pads appear to be fragile


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## Alfa147 (Feb 22, 2012)

lowejackson said:


> Cannot really help with the Menzerna as I only have their Power Gloss compound however their polish range seems to be highly regarded but their pads appear to be fragile


With a good polish and pad then do you think I can get fairly decent results?

And will I still be sanding the other panel down or should I just try with the DA first?


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## lowejackson (Feb 23, 2006)

Alfa147 said:


> With a good polish and pad then do you think I can get fairly decent results?
> 
> And will I still be sanding the other panel down or should I just try with the DA first?


We are now past the level of my knowledge as I have no idea about reprays or more importantly what is the cause of the dullness on your paint.

I would be tempted to polish first with a DA and then review before trying anything else.

One suggestion would be to find a local bodyshop and ask if they know what is wrong. If they say all it needs is a good polish, your fine but if they say it needs something else then at least you know.


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## Alfa147 (Feb 22, 2012)

lowejackson said:


> We are now past the level of my knowledge as I have no idea about reprays or more importantly what is the cause of the dullness on your paint.
> 
> I would be tempted to polish first with a DA and then review before trying anything else.
> 
> One suggestion would be to find a local bodyshop and ask if they know what is wrong. If they say all it needs is a good polish, your fine but if they say it needs something else then at least you know.


Thank you.


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## Alfa147 (Feb 22, 2012)

Short of going to a garage, can anyone offer any other suggestions as to why I get this distorted reflection from a few feet away please?


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## Alfa147 (Feb 22, 2012)

Bump, any ideas?


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## Eppursimuove (Sep 28, 2010)

You need to post better pics Alfa, those phone pics are no good. I can't tell if it is noise from the camera or the paintwork.

It could well be a problem in the basecoat under the clear coat, so no amount of buffing will fix it. It could even be the wrong shade of black which makes it appear flatter than the rest, if that makes sense.


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## Alfa147 (Feb 22, 2012)

Eppursimuove said:


> You need to post better pics Alfa, those phone pics are no good. I can't tell if it is noise from the camera or the paintwork.
> 
> It could well be a problem in the basecoat under the clear coat, so no amount of buffing will fix it. It could even be the wrong shade of black which makes it appear flatter than the rest, if that makes sense.


Sorry about that, I've found a couple of photos which are a bit clearer, but still nothing great.

The problem is that even if it was the wrong shade of black, it should still give me a decent reflection, shouldn't it? The colour match actually seems spot on. I did hold an LED torch up to a polished section and it was spotless, not even a hairline scratch but still had the same bad reflection as the unpolished section.

Standing close to the car and the problem just seems to be lack of glossy shine, the reflection seems fine tho? Just can't understand why it suddenly goes **** up when moving back.


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## mark328 (Aug 1, 2010)

Hi Alfa,

As per prev posts I believe that we have now got to the point where unless we actually are there we cant really see to give you the answer you need.

My only suggestion is to call in at your local bodyshop and ask them to cast their eyes over it, they wont charge you as obvioulsy they would want your business.

I hope you get what your looking for, but I think your going to have to take another road now.

Let us know what the bodyshop says :thumb:


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## Alfa147 (Feb 22, 2012)

Thanks Mark

Update: Took the car to a bodyshop and they said it looks like the whole thing has been rushed and under prepared. They thought the primer may be causing the waviness/distorted look and thus cannot be buffed out. Respray would be about £700. I won't be getting it resprayed tho, nearly half of what I paid for it.

Thinking about a DIY respray, anything has to be better than how it is, right?


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## lowejackson (Feb 23, 2006)

Alfa147 said:


> Thanks Mark
> 
> Update: Took the car to a bodyshop and they said it looks like the whole thing has been rushed and under prepared. They thought the primer may be causing the waviness/distorted look and thus cannot be buffed out. Respray would be about £700. I won't be getting it resprayed tho, nearly half of what I paid for it.
> 
> Thinking about a DIY respray, anything has to be better than how it is, right?


Might be worth looking at these DIY resprays http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=248876

I suspect the £700 would be a lot less if you could remove and strip the doors yourself (assuming that it is practical)


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## Alfa147 (Feb 22, 2012)

lowejackson said:


> Might be worth looking at these DIY resprays http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=248876
> 
> I suspect the £700 would be a lot less if you could remove and strip the doors yourself (assuming that it is practical)


Thanks mate,

I can source a couple of doors from ebay and because it's a 3 door they're quite long so that already would be a good 70% of the paint sorted. I was reading that thread earlier and it did give me hope.

I should hopefully only have to paint the lower rear quarter if I get the doors sorted and so would I need to get back to bare metal or can I sand over the old paint and blend in?

I'm sure I can do a better job then it is now.


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## lowejackson (Feb 23, 2006)

Just a suggestion but how about one of those matt bodywraps which seem to be popular these days


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## Alfa147 (Feb 22, 2012)

lowejackson said:


> Just a suggestion but how about one of those matt bodywraps which seem to be popular these days


The one's I've seen are quite pricey, even the £700 was far too much for what I'm looking for. I can source two doors which only leaves the rear quarters.

I'll probably end up polishing the car the best I can do make the most of the bad respray. A DA is now out of the question so I'm after a good quality hand polishing pad to really get stuck in. Can you recommend any? I've got a red and white one from Cleanyourcar but is feels too soft so I end up only using the edge.

And should I stick with the P1 given the situation?

I'm also having trouble shifting the 2000 grit marks, should I go over the area with 3000 then T-cut>Polish?


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## lowejackson (Feb 23, 2006)

3000 grit will make it a lot easier to polish, I would have thought that P1 should be able to remove the 3000 grit marks but it might take some time


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## lowejackson (Feb 23, 2006)

Just had another idea. Many years ago when I was a poor student I apprached my local college who did mechanics and bodyshop training and asked if one of their students would respray my car. In the end they agreed but I had to buy the paint and strip the trim myself.

The finish was not perfect but was still very good.

Anyway, just an idea


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## Alfa147 (Feb 22, 2012)

lowejackson said:


> 3000 grit will make it a lot easier to polish, I would have thought that P1 should be able to remove the 3000 grit marks but it might take some time


Thank you, the P1 did a great job in the end. I bought one of those mushroom shaped hand pads (G3?) which had a nice firmness and made the job a lot easier.:thumb:


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## Alfa147 (Feb 22, 2012)

lowejackson said:


> Just had another idea. Many years ago when I was a poor student I apprached my local college who did mechanics and bodyshop training and asked if one of their students would respray my car. In the end they agreed but I had to buy the paint and strip the trim myself.
> 
> The finish was not perfect but was still very good.
> 
> Anyway, just an idea


That is a good idea, I know people get free dentist stuff letting the students do work on volunteers so could be a possibility.


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## Alfa147 (Feb 22, 2012)

Excuse the bump. 

Going to give the car a clean soon and wondering if wax can actually improve on the problem I'm having? When it rains the water barrier negates any imperfections the car may have so is there a wax can that do similar?

I've got some Collinite 476 so will give that a go. I also have some blackhole.


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