# major problems (possible full respray) after full respray!



## theblueflash (Sep 10, 2009)

ok. Im going to try to keep this short and sweet and not mention or implicate (**** off anyone involved)

basically I bought a car last april. it went straight into the bodyshop who started working on it a few weeks later. the job was a full respray. the car is an estate. colour is flat black.

time and poor health to family meant the work was delayed and stretched out an the work was finally complete first week of november. 

bonnet developed some strange marks and the car went back in and it was deemed there was too much material on it so it was taken back to bare metal and re painted. I got the car back the week before christmas. the colour match is spot on and the work is top quality.

I say this because in preparation for me putting my pride and joy back on the road I wanted it mint. so i talked myself out of going over it with my dual action and opted for a professional detail and to have the car ventureshielded or the like. The guy I got to come out commented on what a good job it was and how flat the finish is saying it would only need a few days to take all the defects out as there was basically no orange peel. 

so after the car came back the first time the detailer said the paint was too soft he couldnt work on it. give it the benefit of the doubt and came back 2 weeks later to find the same thing. he was also the person who spotted the strange defects on the bonnet. car goes away - car comes back. bodyshop have re baked the entire car to make sure there are no nasties in the remaining paint and re painted bonnet. 

detailer back out 2 weeks later. paint still soft. 

when he first says soft i ask and he demonstrates. you can leave a finger nail imprint. which to me looks soft. demonstrates another way by using ipa to clean the dust of a panel. using a clean finger lightly rubs the paint and microfibres the finger grease away to leave horrible marks in the paint. 

so to present day, and the fourth or fifth time the detailer has been out (to his credit) and the remaining car has hardened a little. bonnet is still super soft with the same situation as above. so he breaks out the rotary on the rear quarter to see what he can do. 

results. 
light pad and an ultra light cut = hazy
med pad and med cut = swirly

he was reluctant but tried a harsher pad and a more aggressive cut again very little pressure and basically the same. 

then back up through the pads/compounds to leave a very glossy panel but still with a lot of marring and a lot of the scratches that are in the paint from where its been sat in my garage being worked on. 

his conclusion. could get 99% of the defects out of the panels with 2 days solid work but as soon as i touch it, wash it, brush past it or basically do anything I'll mark the paint. 

& I completely believe him as Ive watched him work and there is 100% evidence to back up what he says. 

what Im basically asking is a point of view from painters and detailers on this site to tell me what they would think reading this, if they had painted the car themselves. or I had asked them out to test and quote me on detailing the whole car and were not able to because of the results above

obviously I need to go back to the bodyshop but wanted some opinions first 

many thanks for reading


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## steveo3002 (Jan 30, 2006)

fault with the paint if its 2 pack , you shouldnt be able to dig your nails in it

or painted with something cheap n nasty


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## Jamesk93 (Jan 25, 2014)

I also agree with steveo3002.

Could possibly be that there wasn't enough hardener put into the paint/lacquer, resulting in the paint not curing properly or the paint wasn't mixed properly. 

James


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## craigeh123 (Dec 26, 2011)

Id say they didn't mix it right , 2 pack goes hard you should never be able to dig a nail in


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## theblueflash (Sep 10, 2009)

I opted to have the better material. My basic words were "none of that waterbased rubbish please" so I am asssuming that its 2 pack


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## steveo3002 (Jan 30, 2006)

waterbased is used all over now , wouldnt be a issue if they used it tbh

even budget no name brand 2 pack goes off fine and will polish up a treat


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## robdcfc (Sep 17, 2012)

It may be direct gloss with not enough hardener in it, there's nothing wrong with water based that's all we use now apart from for wheels. 

You need to find out what brands of products they have used and what ratios it was mixed to for one of us to be able to give you a proper answer.


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## steveo3002 (Jan 30, 2006)

i was wondering if its some kind of non 2k 

maybe uni binder air drying stuff , or sythetic if its a solid colour


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## theblueflash (Sep 10, 2009)

I was under the impression waterbased was good but far inferior to the quality and durability of 2k. Water based finishes just never floated my boat but maybe I'm wrong. 

Either way the finish is great but there is def something wrong with the materials or application


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## moosh (May 8, 2011)

Sounds like urethane paint or cellulose which with heat or if it's worked with chemicals or a polisher it will soften :-(

Being flat black and having a glass finish I'm thinking cellulose.


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## theblueflash (Sep 10, 2009)

moosh said:


> Sounds like urethane paint or cellulose which with heat or if it's worked with chemicals or a polisher it will soften :-(
> 
> Being flat black and having a glass finish I'm thinking cellulose.


If this is the case will either harden like other products? & can these finishes effectively be detailed. I'm worried that I'll never be rid of marring or swirls and when the car is in the sun it'll look terrible.

No point in having a full respray if it looks like 10 years of automated car washing as soon as I start using it!!


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## toddy23 (Jun 16, 2012)

It could be a number of things,but if the water base is applied way way to wet and applie clearcoat then it will never fully cure,even tho the base looks dry it's just a skin on top.ive heard paint reps tell painters the wetter the better we'll that's bull ****


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## steveo3002 (Jan 30, 2006)

sounds like it needs roaring off and doing again


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## theblueflash (Sep 10, 2009)

steveo3002 said:


> sounds like it needs roaring off and doing again


This what I'm worried about Steve. Its one thing to argue/agree to a respray but the problematic materials need to be removed first which is even more work. & whose to say that will be done properly as they are already working at a loss. If they agree they're in the wrong would it be best to recoup funds get them to re prep the car and take it somewhere else for painting?


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## theblueflash (Sep 10, 2009)

Don't know why I didn't post up earlier. Just googled the lacquer. Its Sherwin Williams 321. First Google search is a PDF data sheet but the description is the following......2K HS Clear is a 420 g/l VOC, urethane, high solid clearcoat to be used as a topcoat over Solventborne.


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## robdcfc (Sep 17, 2012)

If its HS it should rock hard by now, they really need the car back in and get the paint rep to check it over to see if its a bad batch or something silly like they mixed it wrong?


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## steveo3002 (Jan 30, 2006)

theblueflash said:


> This what I'm worried about Steve. Its one thing to argue/agree to a respray but the problematic materials need to be removed first which is even more work. & whose to say that will be done properly as they are already working at a loss. If they agree they're in the wrong would it be best to recoup funds get them to re prep the car and take it somewhere else for painting?


yeah i can see it turning ugly

they wont want to put the hours and money into it again ..and another garage wont want to clean up someone elses mess


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## theblueflash (Sep 10, 2009)

robdcfc said:


> If its HS it should rock hard by now, they really need the car back in and get the paint rep to check it over to see if its a bad batch or something silly like they mixed it wrong?


The funny thing is that after I took the car back with the bonnet problems they got a rep in and they all came to the conclusion that there was too much material on it. But to rule it out the rep said that if the shop took it back to bare metal he would paint it himself to make sure the materials were "sound".

.....and here we are..... How much truth there is in that I dont know.


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## steveo3002 (Jan 30, 2006)

well if theres a rep involved at least its good news , theyre using a branded product from a proper supplier 

they should stand by the job /paint and make it right with you vs ebay stuff youre on your own with it 

see if you can call in while its being done again , you really dont want them painting over this


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## Andyb0127 (Jan 16, 2011)

From what you've said. It sounds very much like the black base hasn't been dried properly and painted with clear far to quick. So it will always be soft as the black base is now sealed of with the laquer. Only other problem could be they have used a slow hardner as its a full repaint. And its not been mixed correctly. So it will never cure fully. Wrong gun set up could also be a factor in it, as you've said it was over applied, with these hs clears you have to apply them as per technical data sheet, and use correct set up in the spraygun. 
I've tried the Sherwin Williams stuff and I dont rate it all, I wouldn't use it on my pushbike let alone a car. Going on what you've said it needs taking back to baremetal and starting again, as just painting over it the problem will still be there. Lets hope the rep looks at it and realizes and knows what the problem is.


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## toddy23 (Jun 16, 2012)

All the sherwin Williams clearcoats are ****,like said I wouldn't do my garden gate in it,and don't think by getting a rep to paint it it will be perfect,all the paint reps I've seen over the years are **** poor,that's why the reps do the job because they where crap on the shop floor,any one who is a good painter is still working on the shop floor 20 + years later


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## Andyb0127 (Jan 16, 2011)

toddy23 said:


> All the sherwin Williams clearcoats are ****,like said I wouldn't do my garden gate in it,and don't think by getting a rep to paint it it will be perfect,all the paint reps I've seen over the years are **** poor,that's why the reps do the job because they where crap on the shop floor,any one who is a good painter is still working on the shop floor 20 + years later


Ain't that the truth. Two reps I dealt with from spies hecker had to be the two most useless fvckwits I've ever met, they painted a Mercedes wing. Well you could of struck a match on it where the paint was so dry. Then when they polished they went through. Dumb and dumber had more brains than these two idiots. We tried the Sherwin air dry clearcoat, god the rep tried convincing me it was the best thing out there. He soon got the message when I told him what I thought of there products. Just hope the bodyshop sort this for the op.


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## theblueflash (Sep 10, 2009)

Andyb0127 said:


> From what you've said. It sounds very much like the black base hasn't been dried properly and painted with clear far to quick. So it will always be soft as the black base is now sealed of with the laquer. Only other problem could be they have used a slow hardner as its a full repaint. And its not been mixed correctly. So it will never cure fully. Wrong gun set up could also be a factor in it, as you've said it was over applied, with these hs clears you have to apply them as per technical data sheet, and use correct set up in the spraygun.
> I've tried the Sherwin Williams stuff and I dont rate it all, I wouldn't use it on my pushbike let alone a car. Going on what you've said it needs taking back to baremetal and starting again, as just painting over it the problem will still be there. Lets hope the rep looks at it and realizes and knows what the problem is.


It was only the bonnet that had too much material. It had the original plus 2 previous paint jobs underneath what was put on. Rest of the car seems fine, no signs of the reaction that appeared on the bonnet originally.


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## craigeh123 (Dec 26, 2011)

So us the rest of the car soft or just the bonnett ?


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## theblueflash (Sep 10, 2009)

craigeh123 said:


> So us the rest of the car soft or just the bonnett ?


Bonnet is finger nail soft and the rest of the car is hard to touch but when you polish it you can't touch it again without easily marking it.


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## craigeh123 (Dec 26, 2011)

Sounds like its going to need taking right back sadly


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## theblueflash (Sep 10, 2009)

So as I am still waiting to find out what's happening I'm trying to make plans in my head of what to do in the event I come up against resistance. I've already got another detailer coming this weekend to see what they say about it and to get another quote as I've only got the 1 so far. But I was thinking that if their testimonial isn't good enough spoken or on paper then I feel that something more concrete would suffice if I actually needed proof should things get messy. 

Is there such a thing as a paint specialist? Someone who doesn't represent a brand or sell a product? Who is available To check the quality, depth etc of a finish free or for a price? I may be jumping the gun here but I feel I may need some ammo if things dont go my way.


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## m1pui (Jul 24, 2009)

I would've thought just another body shop that would give you an independent evaluation of it. 

Alternatively, if you know what products where used, have you thought about speaking to the company and they might send an inspector to assess it. Just a thought


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## squiggs (Oct 19, 2009)

Have things progressed?


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