# IS Caustic the way for ME to go........



## jimmy86 (Apr 1, 2009)

Hi all, 

I am currently using PH Neutral Snow Foam as a pre wash for the Courier Company i work for.
We have 12 09 plate Merc Sprinter LWB Vans that can do between 300-600 miles pw.
However as i wash the Vans, i have come to the conclusion that Snow Foam may not be the best product for me, as i require something with more cleansing power and would like opinons / reconmendations on Caustic TFR's.
I have searched on and found a wide range of commercal TFR's but am a little concerned as i dont want to be the one being handed my P45 for destroying the paintwork of our fleet. 

Your thoughts and comments please........
Regards


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## ross-1888 (Feb 22, 2009)

GEt a hold of your nearest autosmart rep and get something along the lines of hd foam or high foam something like this ran through your pressure washer at the correct dilutions will clean the vans up much better than the usual snow foam.


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## chch (Jan 2, 2010)

http://www.nerta.be/eng/prod_gamma/carnet_jumbo/FS_tert_nav.htm nuff said.


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## karl_liverpool (Sep 25, 2008)

chch said:


> http://www.nerta.be/eng/prod_gamma/carnet_jumbo/FS_tert_nav.htm nuff said.


nerta are a massive name in the haulage industry and cracking products my supplier gets some of their products in.


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## ipwn (Dec 1, 2009)

If you want full on cleaning then this is it. It doesnt destroy wax which is a bonus !

http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=127990


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## andy monty (Dec 29, 2007)

Bilt hamber auto foam


It might be worth contacting the suppliers/ Makers for a Sample After all if your doing a fleet you will be ordering in larger quantity's than the average home detailer after all you don't want to be shelling out for 25ltrs plus and finding its no good for what you want if there is a big sale in it and chance of regular custom i can't see many turning you down....


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## rusey93 (Dec 24, 2008)

ipwn said:


> If you want full on cleaning then this is it. It doesnt destroy wax which is a bonus !
> 
> http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=127990


+1 :thumb:


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## ipwn (Dec 1, 2009)

andy monty said:


> Bilt hamber auto foam


Please Jimmy, please do not consider BH auto foam if what you are asking is cleaning power. Please don't. Please. If you can hold out till Sunday evening as I am going to be doing a 50/50 of Actimousse plus on one side and BH on the other. I will put up the pictures on DW on Sunday evening.


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## jimmy86 (Apr 1, 2009)

ipwn said:


> Please Jimmy, please do not consider BH auto foam if what you are asking is cleaning power. Please don't. Please. If you can hold out till Sunday evening as I am going to be doing a 50/50 of Actimousse plus on one side and BH on the other. I will put up the pictures on DW on Sunday evening.


i read your write up on Actimousse, and i must say like others its Very Impressive Stuff.
Its taking me roughy 40-60 minutes to pre wash with Snow Foam and then Hand Wash with the 2BM, with i dont mind but in this weather lately its hard as theres no access to hot water.
So is Actimousse a product marketed more so towards fleet vehicals?


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## andy monty (Dec 29, 2007)

each to their own but it has no problem with this

http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showpost.php?p=1291474&postcount=22


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## jimmy86 (Apr 1, 2009)

andy monty said:


> Bilt hamber auto foam
> 
> It might be worth contacting the suppliers/ Makers for a Sample After all if your doing a fleet you will be ordering in larger quantity's than the average home detailer after all you don't want to be shelling out for 25ltrs plus and finding its no good for what you want if there is a big sale in it and chance of regular custom i can't see many turning you down....


yeah good point cheers, i've seen the brand mentioned quite alot on here


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## ipwn (Dec 1, 2009)

jimmy86 said:


> i read your write up on Actimousse, and i must say like others its Very Impressive Stuff.
> Its taking me roughy 40-60 minutes to pre wash with Snow Foam and then Hand Wash with the 2BM, with i dont mind but in this weather lately its hard as theres no access to hot water.
> So is Actimousse a product marketed more so towards fleet vehicals?


Yes, it's aimed at the trade, but slowly people are coming around on this forum that if you dilute it correctly it wont affect your wax or anything.

Now bear in mind that the thread you saw, the dilution there was 200ml of actimousse and 800ml of water, which is pretty weak in Actimousses eyes. If you have no wax to worry about you can easily bump that up to 500ml to 500ml which will gurantee you a very very very good wash.


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## ipwn (Dec 1, 2009)

andy monty said:


> each to their own but it has no problem with this
> 
> http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showpost.php?p=1291474&postcount=22


To be fair the car is still wet in the last picture..

In my thread I allowed the Vectra do dry for an hour or so.

Once the car is dry then it really shows you how much was cleaned.

Im dying for Sunday now


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## jimmy86 (Apr 1, 2009)

andy monty said:


> each to their own but it has no problem with this
> 
> http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showpost.php?p=1291474&postcount=22


wow!! did you hand wash the wheels or was that a rinse on rinse off case


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## jimmy86 (Apr 1, 2009)

Sorry Andy, it appears that i am a member with less than 10 points


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## andy monty (Dec 29, 2007)

jimmy86 said:


> Sorry Andy, it appears that i am a member with less than 10 points


ok mate

http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=139874

just foamed and rinsed the wheels on the crv

I'd certainly get samples that way you can make your own mind up


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## jimmy86 (Apr 1, 2009)

ipwn said:


> To be fair the car is still wet in the last picture..
> 
> In my thread I allowed the Vectra do dry for an hour or so.
> 
> ...


haha yeah im quite interested to see that to. Cheers!


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## chunkytfg (Feb 1, 2009)

What I dont get is the fact that you have vans that do no more miles that the average commuter and you want something amazingly strong!

Where is it these vans go that makes them get such heavy layers of dirt on them?

If they were prepped properly in the first place with something super hard wearing like FK1000p then when you came to wash them a decent layer of foam left to dwell and a decent PW should get them nice and clean!!


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## andy monty (Dec 29, 2007)

chunkytfg said:


> What I dont get is the fact that you have vans that do no more miles that the average commuter and you want something amazingly strong!
> 
> Where is it these vans go that makes them get such heavy layers of dirt on them?


suppose it depends where the Fleet go this area is very rural hence most local multi drop end up on farms and down single track roads for example are going to end up in much worse state than the larger inner city / large town multidrop vans


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## ipwn (Dec 1, 2009)

chunkytfg said:


> If they were prepped properly in the first place with something super hard wearing like FK1000p then when you came to wash them a decent layer of foam left to dwell and a decent PW should get them nice and clean!!


This reminds me, in the actimousse thread, the Vectra had no wax on it whatsoever. Was just one of our reps car.


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## jimmy86 (Apr 1, 2009)

andy monty said:


> ok mate
> 
> http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=139874
> 
> ...


A quick search on here for Bilt hamber provided me with some 20 pages of results.............i have some reading to do 

Thanks for your posts
Regards
James


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## jimmy86 (Apr 1, 2009)

chunkytfg said:


> What I dont get is the fact that you have vans that do no more miles that the average commuter and you want something amazingly strong!
> 
> Where is it these vans go that makes them get such heavy layers of dirt on them?
> 
> If they were prepped properly in the first place with something super hard wearing like FK1000p then when you came to wash them a decent layer of foam left to dwell and a decent PW should get them nice and clean!!


We're a company servicing the East, London and South East.
The Vans are 08 plate and we've had them from new.
As to them being prepped i wouldnt know about that, but prior to November just gone they've never been looked after, unless you can call a dirty year old spot mop and a cold hose being dangled over.
Im no pro, though its a start hopefully


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## chunkytfg (Feb 1, 2009)

jimmy86 said:


> We're a company servicing the East, London and South East.
> The Vans are 08 plate and we've had them from new.
> As to them being prepped i wouldnt know about that, but prior to November just gone they've never been looked after, unless you can call a dirty year old spot mop and a cold hose being dangled over.
> Im no pro, though its a start hopefully


What i'm getting at is a properly prepped car/van will shed dirt far easier than one with no protection on it at all.

If you could find a day per van to go round them with a clay bar and then a couple of coats of FK1000p then when you come to wash them the dirt will cling far less and you will get them 80% clean with nothing more than a decent pressure wash:thumb:


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## chrisc (Jun 15, 2008)

get a autosmart rep to come round to where you work.just remember though there strong tackle so make sure your up on your dilutions.i use active xl on my van one wash and its clean.to be honest if i had 12 to do would not waste my time snowfoaming them all.i just like snowfoam thats why i do it..but my vans waxed etc so fairly easy to clean now.
id get a good power washer though.dont take notice of the shampoos what state 1.1000 dilution ratio it just means it will mix to that does not mean it will be any good when its diluted that much down.and get a good brush vikan are good nice and wide.


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## chrisc (Jun 15, 2008)

chunkytfg said:


> What i'm getting at is a properly prepped car/van will shed dirt far easier than one with no protection on it at all.
> 
> If you could find a day per van to go round them with a clay bar and then a couple of coats of FK1000p then when you come to wash them the dirt will cling far less and you will get them 80% clean with nothing more than a decent pressure wash:thumb:


spot on that i tend to wax my van say every six week.and i have noticed it cleans alot easier.


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## chrisc (Jun 15, 2008)

and have a something what holds plenty of water to mix whatever you use.


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## jimmy86 (Apr 1, 2009)

yeah i quess i didnt think of that.
Not sure if the manager will go for that though, "if it looks clean its clean" NOT in my view but possibly his


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## jimmy86 (Apr 1, 2009)

jimmy86 said:


> yeah i quess i didnt think of that.
> Not sure if the manager will go for that though, "if it looks clean its clean" NOT in my view but possibly his


In terms to a wax treatment i mean


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## chrisc (Jun 15, 2008)

jimmy86 said:


> In terms to a wax treatment i mean


you can buy aquawax from autosmart what goes into a foam lance dilute spray on spray off good stuff aswell.easy as that plus he be able to claim for it all for tax i would imagine


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## wookey (Jul 13, 2007)

chch said:


> http://www.nerta.be/eng/prod_gamma/carnet_jumbo/FS_tert_nav.htm nuff said.


pH 12.5 :doublesho

That's about the same pH level as household bleach! Is that not a worry?


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## PJS (Aug 18, 2007)

Wookey, you might want to rethink that reply - bleach is acidic, not caustic!

Jimmy, put aside the chemicals for the moment, and enlighten us on what pressure washer you have to hand.
Hot? Cold? Pressure? Flow rate?
There's more than one way to skin a cat!


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## jimmy86 (Apr 1, 2009)

Hi, im using the Nilfisk C120.2-6:

# Max. pump pressure 1740psi (120 bar)
# Max. water flow rate 520 ltrs / hr
#1700 Watt, 230v motor

There is only access to cold water at work


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## PJS (Aug 18, 2007)

Then with that, you're going to need all the help you can get with a HD TFR, if the boss won't pony up for your time and the products to really clean it (claying) and protect it.

Is this your own PW or did the company buy it? If the former, then with respect, tell them to pay up, and grab something more befitting for commercial cleaning - it's a legitimate business expense, and the end of the financial tax year is nigh!
Get something with hot water capability - that'll help no end, but it must also have proper flow rate and pressure.


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## toni (Oct 30, 2005)

PJS said:


> Wooky, you might want to rethink that reply - bleach is acidic, not caustic!


Household bleach it's actually caustic (alkaline) and contains sodium hypochlorite (NaClO). It has a PH value of ~12.6.


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## PJS (Aug 18, 2007)

If so, then I stand corrected - was under the age long impression it was acidic.
Seems I've made the classic mistake of associating corrosive with acid, in that case.
Cheers Toni - shows you can still learn something new every so often.

Of course, I'll claim I was still half asleep when I wrote that, and all the neurons weren't firing in the proper sequence......


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## chrisc (Jun 15, 2008)

he stilll wants to get some tfr though for that amount.


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## 1Valet PRO (Nov 2, 2005)

jimmy86 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I am currently using PH Neutral Snow Foam as a pre wash for the Courier Company i work for.
> We have 12 09 plate Merc Sprinter LWB Vans that can do between 300-600 miles pw.
> ...


Alkaline cleaner will work better. But i would recomend that you apply your PH neutral snow foam via a pump sprayer like this http://www.valetpro.co.uk/Products/Accessories/Pump-Sprayers/1399-/Orion-PRO-6L-pump-Sprayer

Using these pump mean that the dilution for say our PH neutral snow foam would be 1:15 so 375ml per 5.6ltrs of water. This will give you much better cleaning than through a foam lance. This is partly the product is more concentrated than when used through a foam lance.

Most of our trade customers use this method.

PH neutral is a much more car friendly way to clean your car. But if you really need more bite then a product like snow foam combo which is alkaline but not caustic would be much better.

hope this is useful:thumb:


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## Blazebro (May 18, 2007)

I've just taken deliveru of 5L of Espuma Powerforce Utra, ehich is a heavy duty degreasing TFR (alkaline based). Dirt cheap and haven't used it yet. Can be bought in quantities up to 1000ltrs. Another option I was considering was Fleetclean from Aaron Chemicals:

http://www.aaronchemicals.co.uk/80395/info.php?p=3&cat=125539

Friend who owns a haulage firm uses it.


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## Blazebro (May 18, 2007)

wookey said:


> pH 12.5 :doublesho
> 
> That's about the same pH level as household bleach! Is that not a worry?


It's quite common for general detergents to be around the PH level of 12. I've taken delivery of some litmus paper and plan on doing some tests in the very near future. I think some will be shocked when I test something like BTBM. I would also hazard a gues that PH Neutral foams aren't all that PH neutral.

The only thing you can more or less guarantee to be PH neutral is distilled water.



PJS said:


> Wooky, you might want to rethink that reply - bleach is acidic, not caustic!


Another classic PJS statement.......



toni said:


> Household bleach it's actually caustic (alkaline) and contains sodium hypochlorite (NaClO). It has a PH value of ~12.6.





PJS said:


> If so, then I stand corrected - was under the age long impression it was acidic.
> Seems I've made the classic mistake of associating corrosive with acid, in that case.
> Cheers Toni - shows you can still learn something new every so often.


.......Corrected

I wouldn't however use bleach on a car. PH values are one thing, but the chemicals within are designed to do completely different things.


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## PJS (Aug 18, 2007)

Blazebro said:


> It's quite common for general detergents to be around the PH level of 12. I've taken delivery of some litmus paper and plan on doing some tests in the very near future. I think some will be shocked when I test something like BTBM. I would also hazard a gues that PH Neutral foams aren't all that PH neutral.
> 
> The only thing you can more or less guarantee to be PH neutral is distilled water.





Blazebro said:


> Another classic PJS statement.......


:lol:
Talk about the pot calling the kettle black!?

While you're playing at amateur chemist with your litmus papers, make sure to buy a bar of Dove soap, and test it too - just like the advert they ran many years ago.
Maybe then you'll realise we humans can be prone to erroneous remarks, and that there are a great many things that have been/are designed to be be pH neutral as is or when diluted as per instructions.

Can't wait to see the pH values of AW and BTBM at their recommended concentrations.
Maybe I should get some litmus paper too, and do likewise, then I can peer review your science.

Ps - don't bother replying, as I've absolutely *no* intention of turning this thread into another fiasco one like the recent "surfactants" one. Once was quite enough with the BH AF thread, and that the second one got locked over BH AF again, I've no desire to have a third thread go sour on the OP.
If you've any remarks or links to get off your chest, keep it to PM's.


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## The Doctor (Sep 11, 2007)

jimmy86 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I am currently using PH Neutral Snow Foam as a pre wash for the Courier Company i work for.
> We have 12 09 plate Merc Sprinter LWB Vans that can do between 300-600 miles pw.
> ...


Why would TFR destroy the paintwork? Its not some kind of monster waiting to climb out of the drum and attack anything painted although some people on here would have you believe that!

As long as you follow the instructions on the label and the product is from a reputable company then you have nothing to worry about. TFR is designed to clean vehicles not destroy them!

Back to your vans, the only question you need to ask is is there any bare Alloy on them? If so then you will need a TFR that will not mark bare alloy. If not then you can pretty much use any of them that are designed for cleaning vehicles (some are designed for heavy duty degreasing).

If you do decide to use Autosmart then you have a large range of TFR/foaming TFR's to choose from. I personally would use either Actimousse Plus if you want to carry on using it as a foam product or Truckwash 39 if you want a traditional TFR.


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## ipwn (Dec 1, 2009)

The Doctor said:


> Why would TFR destroy the paintwork? Its not some kind of monster waiting to climb out of the drum and attack anything painted although some people on here would have you believe that!


Don't call me GaGa
I've never seen one like that before
Don't go to autosmart
You cant amaze me

the tfr ate my paintwork , it a-a-ate my paintwork
(You little monster)
the tfr ate my paintwork , it a-a-ate my paintwork
(bh autofoam amazes me) x2

That TFR is a monster, m-m-m-monster
That TFR is a monster, m-m-m-monster
That TFR is a monster, m-m-m-monster
That TFR is a monster-er-er-er-er

Yessss I am bored.


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## The Doctor (Sep 11, 2007)

ipwn said:


> Don't call me GaGa
> I've never seen one like that before
> Don't go to autosmart
> You cant amaze me
> ...


I dont know whos worse,you for writing that or me for sitting here singing it!


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## ipwn (Dec 1, 2009)

The Doctor said:


> I dont know whos worse,you for writing that or me for sitting here singing it!


I did both :lol:

Also :lol: at bleach being acidic.


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## Gleammachine (Sep 8, 2007)

ipwn said:


> Please Jimmy, please do not consider BH auto foam if what you are asking is cleaning power. Please don't. Please. If you can hold out till Sunday evening as I am going to be doing a 50/50 of Actimousse plus on one side and BH on the other. I will put up the pictures on DW on Sunday evening.


I've got to ask, is this purely from pressure washing after the Actimousse?

http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showpost.php?p=1669626&postcount=30

In regards to dwelling foams, I have tried most of them including Actimousse of which I wasn't too impressed with tbh, but on the otherhand BH Autofoam has been the most effective I've used, granted I'm not doing HGV's for a living.

If the OP's boss purely wants a clean lorry with no regard for protection etc.. then personally I would just apply something like Espuma G202 (AS G101 but better dilution rates) through a foam lance, going to be about the most effective IMO.


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## chrisc (Jun 15, 2008)

ill ask bob next time i see him he does commercial vehicle cleaning for a living and as done for many years down where my uncle keeps is trucks.


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## ipwn (Dec 1, 2009)

Gleammachine said:


> I've got to ask, is this purely from pressure washing after the Actimousse?
> 
> http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showpost.php?p=1669626&postcount=30
> 
> ...


That was a while ago. I think I went outside to my car and threw a glass of water on there to watch it bead or something. I ended up doing 14 washes before I gave up as the wax still stayed there.

On sunday I will be writing up a proper comparison as I havn't washed my car for a while and its completely filty, one side actimousse and one BH autofoam. Will be a proper 50/50 accurate comparison.


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## Gleammachine (Sep 8, 2007)

ipwn said:


> That was a while ago. I think I went outside to my car and threw a glass of water on there to watch it bead or something. I ended up doing 14 washes before I gave up as the wax still stayed there.
> 
> On sunday I will be writing up a proper comparison as I havn't washed my car for a while and its completely filty, one side actimousse and one BH autofoam. Will be a proper 50/50 accurate comparison.


Ok, with those 14 washes were they purely from using actimousse and not going over the vehicle afterwards with a shampoo and mitt?


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## ipwn (Dec 1, 2009)

Gleammachine said:


> Ok, with those 14 washes were they purely from using actimousse and not going over the vehicle afterwards with a shampoo and mitt?


Yep. Didn't get the buckets out at all for 2-3 months if I remember correctly.

It managed to drag such an acceptable amount of much off and looked so acceptable once naturally dry.


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## The Doctor (Sep 11, 2007)

Gleammachine said:


> Espuma G202 (AS G101 but better dilution rates)


I can promise you its not G101 but twice the strength at all. I could sell you 5LTs of strong TFR without a label, add a yellow colouring to it and label it as G303 and tell you it was G202 but better dilution.


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## Gleammachine (Sep 8, 2007)

The Doctor said:


> I can promise you its not G101 but twice the strength at all. I could sell you 5LTs of strong TFR without a label, add a yellow colouring to it and label it as G303 and tell you it was G202 but better dilution.


ahh, so you have tried it then?

I didn't say it was twice the strength, it has a better dilution rate, having used both for quite a while now all i will say is they are very similar, the G202 probably doesn't have the same degree of making the trim dry out as much though.


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## The Doctor (Sep 11, 2007)

Gleammachine said:


> ahh, so you have tried it then?


No, but ive tested G101 against it on a certain types of soiling.



Gleammachine said:


> I didn't say it was twice the strength


 Neither did i but Espuma claim it to be dont they?



Gleammachine said:


> it has a better dilution rate


So does a strong TFR



Gleammachine said:


> having used both for quite a while now all i will say is they are very similar, the G202 probably doesn't have the same degree of making the trim dry out as much though.


If G101 is drying your trim then your using it too strong (very common).


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## Gleammachine (Sep 8, 2007)

The Doctor said:


> If G101 is drying your trim then your using it too strong (very common).


I have been doing this as a profession for quite long enough now, although I don't claim to know everything, I can assure you that I am more than competent in mixing the products for the desired use, for interior plastic trim I would use the weakest solution possible.

We are going to have to agree to disagree, otherwise it will turn into the PTG thread all over again.:wave:


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## wookey (Jul 13, 2007)

PJS said:


> Wooky, you might want to rethink that reply - bleach is acidic, not caustic!


I think you might to rethink your reply 

I stated a ph level of 12.6 is the same ph level as household bleach. I also didn't say about bleach being an acid. BTW a ph level of 12.6 would make it alkaline.


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## The Doctor (Sep 11, 2007)

Gleammachine said:


> I have been doing this as a profession for quite long enough now, although I don't claim to know everything, I can assure you that I am more than competent in mixing the products for the desired use, for interior plastic trim I would use the weakest solution possible.
> 
> We are going to have to agree to disagree, otherwise it will turn into the PTG thread all over again.:wave:


Well you post a concern regarding drying of trims so i gave you an answer. You can either carry on as you are or try diluting the product more its up to you. Of course we dont want another PTG thread, ive already proved that one dead infront of a member on here using his very own PTG on my own car!! As you say we will agree to disagree...again :thumb:


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## PJS (Aug 18, 2007)

Yes wookey, I think it's well established I had a momentary brain fart - let's not milk it.
Toni's already given me the slice of humble pie I badly needed!


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## andy monty (Dec 29, 2007)

ipwn said:


> That was a while ago. I think I went outside to my car and threw a glass of water on there to watch it bead or something. I ended up doing 14 washes before I gave up as the wax still stayed there.
> 
> On sunday I will be writing up a proper comparison as I havn't washed my car for a while and its completely filty, one side actimousse and one BH autofoam. Will be a proper 50/50 accurate comparison.


I hope your going to use the correct PIR dilution for each product rather than 1" in the bottom and topped up with water  :wave:



ipwn said:


> Yep. Didn't get the buckets out at all for 2-3 months if I remember correctly.
> 
> It managed to drag such an acceptable amount of much off and looked so acceptable once naturally dry.


thats all i have been doing all winter done about one bucket wash in all that time


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## wookey (Jul 13, 2007)

PJS said:


> Yes wookey, I think it's well established I had a momentary brain fart - let's not milk it.
> Toni's already given me the slice of humble pie I badly needed!


lol...hadn't read the rest of the thread.

anyway back on topic and my original question - does a ph level of 12.6 sound a bit worrying to use on paintwork on a regular basis?


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## andy monty (Dec 29, 2007)

wookey said:


> anyway back on topic and my original question - does a ph level of 12.6 sound a bit worrying to use on paintwork on a regular basis?


well it depends if your putting it on neat or diluting it either in a bucket or via a Foam lance

think of neat lemon juice drink a teaspoon and it tastes very acidic put that same tea spoon amount in a pint of water bet you cant taste it.....

(and yes i know 12.6 would be alkakali (spl)


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## The Doctor (Sep 11, 2007)

wookey said:


> lol...hadn't read the rest of the thread.
> 
> anyway back on topic and my original question - does a ph level of 12.6 sound a bit worrying to use on paintwork on a regular basis?


No not as long as the paintwork in clear coated. Check other things first though like is the product suitable on brightwork? Do you have any brightwork on your car? etc.


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## Blazebro (May 18, 2007)

PJS said:


> Yes wookey, I think it's well established I had a momentary brain fart - let's not milk it.
> Toni's already given me the slice of humble pie I badly needed!


You do that a fair bit, don't you. Beside I thought you weren't going to reply again.

You know what I think your really talented in what you do. When it comes to chemistry I think it's fair to assume you bunked off your science lessons.


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## uruk hai (Apr 5, 2009)




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## jimmy86 (Apr 1, 2009)

The Doctor said:


> Why would TFR destroy the paintwork? Its not some kind of monster waiting to climb out of the drum and attack anything painted although some people on here would have you believe that!
> 
> As long as you follow the instructions on the label and the product is from a reputable company then you have nothing to worry about. TFR is designed to clean vehicles not destroy them!
> 
> ...


For example, i am under the impression that a PH Neutral Snow Foam is a mild TFR designed to loosen dirt and grime, compared to a more caustic Commerical / Fleet products that have an actual cleansing ability.
Having searched on here on TFR's i got the impression many people had negitive views Caustic TFR's, based on there chemical content.

Sorry when i meant destroy, i meant ....discoloration, corrosion, damage to the paint work......i had images of these i guess.

Many thanks for your advice


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## karl_liverpool (Sep 25, 2008)

jimmy86 said:


> For example, i am under the impression that a PH Neutral Snow Foam is a mild TFR designed to loosen dirt and grime, compared to a more caustic Commerical / Fleet products that have an actual cleansing ability.
> Having searched on here on TFR's i got the impression many people had negitive views Caustic TFR's, based on there chemical content.
> 
> Sorry went i meant destroy, i meant ....discoloration, corrosion, damage to the paint work......i had images of these i guess.
> ...


some tfr's (caustic) will fade older car paintwork if it isnt clear coated. especially reds id never put any on vauxhall paint after seeing it fade my old van a few shades in just over a month.


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## caledonia (Sep 13, 2008)

You are on the right tracks now.

You have to compare there actives ingredients, Then consider there PH as this comes into play.

But only at their recommended dilutions.

If you consider all the facts you will come up with a more detailed approach to the products used. 

As already mentioned if you have bright work of any type. A high caustic (for want of a better expression) with a maintained high Ph at the correct dilution will cause discolouration of it. By bright work it could be chrome, Ali polished or anodised and the like.

As for waxes and sealants that get more complex.

Dont just rely on the Ph of a product in it natural state or diluted to gauge a products strength. Look at the whole picture.
Gordon.


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## jimmy86 (Apr 1, 2009)

What do you mean by clear coated?


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## Blazebro (May 18, 2007)

jimmy86 said:


> What do you mean by clear coated?


Metallic (mainly).


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## chrisc (Jun 15, 2008)

i can never say i have had a problem with tfr with the vans trucks i have done.apart from my red van i had but that was through my own stupidity.


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## Blazebro (May 18, 2007)

jimmy86 said:


> For example, i am under the impression that a PH Neutral Snow Foam is a mild TFR designed to loosen dirt and grime, compared to a more caustic Commerical / Fleet products that have an actual cleansing ability.


I'd question that anything that has any cleaning ability has a ph of 7. The only thing you can guarantee to have a ph of 7 is distilled water. So by default any cleanser which is ph neutral will be about as good as distilled water.

A normal cleanser should have a ph of around about 12.


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## jimmy86 (Apr 1, 2009)

caledonia said:


> You are on the right tracks now.
> 
> You have to compare there actives ingredients, Then consider there PH as this comes into play.
> 
> ...


Cheers for your comments!!

Looking at the whole picture sounds like a more pracital approach

Regards


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## caledonia (Sep 13, 2008)

Blazebro said:


> I'd question that anything that has any cleaning ability has a ph of 7. The only thing you can guarantee to have a ph of 7 is distilled water. So by default any cleanser which is ph neutral will be about as good as distilled water.
> 
> A normal cleanser should have a ph of around about 12.


Ok I agree on the Ph of distilled water and the Ph of 7.

But If I take an air pump and heavily saturate the water with oxygen I can raise that PH very high. Same goes for the opposite direction. The introduction of carbon Dioxide and over saturation make the water acidic.
Carbonic acid. We have all drank Carbonated water, is it any less safe to drink compared to any other type of water.??

Does any of the above clean any better than the water at a Ph of 7.???

Look at the full picture. PH is relevant but not the whole story.
Gordon


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## jimmy86 (Apr 1, 2009)

chrisc said:


> i can never say i have had a problem with tfr with the vans trucks i have done.apart from my red van i had but that was through my own stupidity.


what happened with your red van out of interest?


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## Blazebro (May 18, 2007)

caledonia said:


> Ok I agree on the Ph of distilled water and the Ph of 7.
> 
> But If I take an air pump and heavily saturate the water with oxygen I can raise that PH very high. Same goes for the opposite direction. The introduction of carbon Dioxide and over saturation make the water acidic.
> Carbonic acid. We have all drank Carbonated water, is it any less safe to drink compared to any other type of water.??
> ...


Orange juice has a ph of around 3, and that's deemed healthy. Rain water has a ph of 4.

The point I'm making is how can something with a neutral ph clean? I can't think of anyway, or anything on the market designed to clean any other particular 'thing'.

Most will be quite happy to wash their hands in a bowl of fairy liquid with a ph of around 12. But when it comes to our cars it's deemed ph neutral is the way to go?????


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## caledonia (Sep 13, 2008)

Not necessary demand. Every product has its place in the market.

But as I have tried to point out people should be aware of what they are working with and if so. What possible implication it might have.

Products dont have to be caustic to clean. Its the active ingredients in the product that does this and how they are used. The use of caustic ingredients is only because it cheap and cost effective. 

By the way just an example. And slightly OT. But ONR has a Ph of 7 and it is well documented on it cleaning power.


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## Blazebro (May 18, 2007)

caledonia said:


> And slightly OT. But ONR has a Ph of 7 and it is well documented on it cleaning power.


Has that actually been documented?

As you have already pointed it's very easy to change the ph of water, just by adding a gas, therefore by adding a 'cleanser' to a water or other liquid, theorectically there should be a change also.


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## The Doctor (Sep 11, 2007)

jimmy86 said:


> For example, i am under the impression that a PH Neutral Snow Foam is a mild TFR designed to loosen dirt and grime, compared to a more caustic Commerical / Fleet products that have an actual cleansing ability.
> Having searched on here on TFR's i got the impression many people had negitive views Caustic TFR's, based on there chemical content.
> 
> Sorry went i meant destroy, i meant ....discoloration, corrosion, damage to the paint work......i had images of these i guess.
> ...


Caustic is a word that scares misinformed people to death on here.

Firstly 'non caustic TFR'. this is something you see boasted quite often by many companys. Nearly all TFR products have some kind of caustic in them. Some are incorrectly labelled (very common) and others actually contain caustic but by the words non-caustic the manufacturers simply mean it will not destroy living tissue.

Secondly you may look through the Coshh sheets of 2 products and find that one product contains <1% caustic whilst another contains 5% caustic. You then need to check the dilution ratios. If the <1% caustic product has to be applied at 1:5 and the 5% caustic product is applied at 1.150 then the product with the lower caustic level when neat will have more potential to do damage to something despite it having less caustic content in the first place! Its highly unlikely it will actually cause damage if used correctly but im just trying to give an example of one of the myths of caustic. Many people look at the Coshh sheet and think 'no way im using that its got 5% caustic in it' when in reality in use it will be virtually non-caustic.

Discoloration, corrosion, damage to the paint work - again, as stated above this is normally caused by incorrect use of a product. Using a TFR on a non-clearcoated vehicle (unless it is labelled as being single stage paint safe) will cause dulling of the paint. How many vehicles these days are not clear coated? Mine is not clearcoated but its 20 years old,you might find a few Vauxhalls from the 90's without clearcoat as well but the general rule is 99% of todays vehicles are clear coated. If in doubt rub a white cloth with some polish on the paint,if you get colour on your cloth its not clear coated. Using a product too strong is another cause of any kind of dulling of the paintwork. Make sure you dilute it properly! And dont let the product dry onto the paint! If need be in warm weather do one side at a time.

Finally, if you have bare alloy or lots of brightwork on the vehicles then you will need a specialist TFR that will not mark the alloy. Ask is it safe for use on bare alloy and if need be test it before using by dipping a piece of bare aluminum in neat product. If its marketed as safe on alloy then it should not mark the aluminum.


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## Blazebro (May 18, 2007)

I just did a quick test with Megs instant detailer, comes out at between PH8/PH9, are people going to stop using it?

Tried also Simonize bug shifter, turned the paper more or less the same colour, but this contains Sodium bensoate.


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## caledonia (Sep 13, 2008)

theoretically yes. But you have to know whether the product as resistance to Ph fluctuation. As in a in built buffer. Sodium as this quality and will resist change to a degree, dependant on the dilution of the product.

But simple having a PH neutral shampoo or SF and adding it to water with a high Ph will also change this make up and raise the Ph also, If no buffers are present.

Most products on the market test their active ingredient and compare there Ph. Not the full wash solution. So dependants on what Ph is added and also looking at buffers which are far between. Will alter the total Ph of the wash solution.

The increase in the PH has a dramatic effect on certain cleaners and can considerable increase there cleaning power.

Whether this damages your specific LSP cant be said as this is moving the goal posts considerably and introducing a whole new equation.

The importance of paint damage is due to it drying on the finish in most cases, as the ingredients is not in dilution any longer. So a full rinse is the important factor.


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## The Doctor (Sep 11, 2007)

caledonia said:


> But ONR has a Ph of 7 and it is well documented on it cleaning power.


Never used ONR but from what i gather it takes manual friction to remove the dirt?

I think what blazebro means to say is a product of Ph 7 will not be give a decent clean without some kind of manual friction involved.

I highly doubt that spraying ONR on a car then washing it off without any kind of friction would give much of a clean.


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## caledonia (Sep 13, 2008)

So what is pressure washing apart form applying friction though a water jet.???

regardless of what type of cleaner used friction will always come into play.


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## Blazebro (May 18, 2007)

The Doctor said:


> Never used ONR but from what i gather it takes manual friction to remove the dirt?
> 
> I think what blazebro means to say is a product of Ph 7 will not be give a decent clean without some kind of manual friction involved.
> 
> I highly doubt that spraying ONR on a car then washing it off without any kind of friction would give much of a clean.


I doubt it's ph neutral at all. So marketing it as PH neutral is just, well fart tbh. If someone wants to send me a small sample I'll happily test it and we'll see, especially considering the colour of the paper when megs instant detailer was sprayed on it.


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## Blazebro (May 18, 2007)

caledonia said:


> So what is pressure washing apart form applying friction though a water jet.???
> 
> regardless of what type of cleaner used friction will always come into play.


I wouldn't call it friction, more agitation. Bit like shaking up a bottle of soda water.


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## ross-1888 (Feb 22, 2009)

ph is only one side of the coin is it not. You could have something with a ph of say 14 that can't clean jack. And something lower that is great at cleaning.


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## ross-1888 (Feb 22, 2009)

Blazebro said:


> I wouldn't call it friction, more agitation. Bit like shaking up a bottle of soda water.


 Agitation would be a form of friction. Maybe not like a sponge where it covers an area. But at the point that the water hits the paint it will be


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## Blazebro (May 18, 2007)

ross-1888 said:


> ph is only one side of the coin is it not. You could have something with a ph of say 14 that can't clean jack. And something lower that is great at cleaning.


Like bleach, high ph but wouldn't necessarily clean anything. But yes it's only one side of the coin, as has been mentioned a number of times.


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## caledonia (Sep 13, 2008)

Ok we will have to differ on that one.
Some soda bottle :lol:
Believe me regardless of what way you wash your car friction will always come into play.
Even at 120 Psi.
When you have water moving across any stationary surface friction will remove un bonded contamination. Due to the cleaners that have already softened and chemically removed them from the surface.


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## Blazebro (May 18, 2007)

caledonia said:


> Ok we will have to differ on that one.
> Some soda bottle :lol:
> Believe me regardless of what way you wash your car friction will always come into play.
> Even at 120 Psi.
> When you have water moving across any stationary surface friction will remove un bonded contamination. Due to the cleaners that have already softened and chemically removed them from the surface.


You could argue that with anything from air passing over the vehicles body work driving it down the road, to rain water running down the sides of the vehicle.

All I'm saying is I wouldn't put the jet wash under the same umberella as using a sponge that is all.


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## caledonia (Sep 13, 2008)

I personally think to much emphasis is being put on Ph. Yes this is true.

But before anyone recommends a product they should be fully aware of any possible implication that could develop.

It will never be concluded in a few paragraph of text. It would take years to truly vouch of a product to be totally wax, sealant, paint friendly, as well as a fantastic cleaner.

There are far to many parameter to consider.
But as an end user and with no affiliation to any other manufacturer. I can only give my honest answers.

Product make up a research and development is a very interesting field in itself.
But if you choose to go down the road of product testing do it fully and not half hearted.


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## caledonia (Sep 13, 2008)

Blazebro said:


> You could argue that with anything from air passing over the vehicles body work driving it down the road, to rain water running down the sides of the vehicle.
> 
> All I'm saying is I wouldn't put the jet wash under the same umberella as using a sponge that is all.


Again Moving the goal posts.

But since I am currently testing nanolex as well as a few other.
Yes rain and just water does clean my car, With out any chemicals. Or is it the PH of the rain that does it. 

As I said far to many times now. Far to many parameters to consider.

Unfortunately air does not as this has a drying effect But I have seen strips of dirt down my bonnet and across my wings after a rain shower and the air passing over it. :thumb:

Anyway enough for today.
Just trying to highlight what need to be considered.
Gordon.


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## The Doctor (Sep 11, 2007)

caledonia said:


> So what is pressure washing apart form applying friction though a water jet.???
> 
> regardless of what type of cleaner used friction will always come into play.


But would the friction from a pressure washer be sufficient that you could pre-spray the car with a Ph Neutral product such as ONR and get a near touchless wash? By friction i meant using some kind of tool to completely dislodge the dirt eg. a sponge or brush! Whilst your correct that a pressure washer does involve some kind of friction its not really classed as 'manual' friction. Rubbing a sponge as you do with ONR releases the dirt completely from the paint and the ONR holds it in suspension until you wipe the dirt away with your MF cloth.


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## chrisc (Jun 15, 2008)

jimmy86 said:


> what happened with your red van out of interest?


did not mix tfr correct in bucket used my brush to apply then someone came to see me forgot all about it.this was on a very hot day aswell.came back about 15mins later rinsed off and it had gone streaky pink so had to spend ages machineing it out.but you learn by your mistakes


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