# ONR - am I wrong



## npinks (Feb 25, 2008)

Just washed my car with ONR, the car only had a weeks worth of grime on it

Using 1 bucket, I sprayed ONR with the pump sprayer, left to dwell, got my B&Q grout sponge and wiped over my bonnet, turning and rinsing it in the bucket, by the time I had just done the Bonnet the solution was discolour

The left over water siting on the bonnet was discoloured too, this left me not wanting to dry it

How can you use one bucket which discolours straight away and leaves dirty water on the car and dry it, I know the solution is holding the dirt but your still going to be spreading it about by trying to dry it

I ended up making a second bucket, and used this method

Pre rinse, Dirty bucket, panel, rinse in dirty bucket, squeeze all water out into dirty bucket, 2nd bucket, wash panel, spray panel, wipe with MF/ONR, dry

So I went through 2 buckets of ONR and 2x 1.5L spray pumps

It also took an hour to wash my Freelander and my wheels are still dirty 

I'm starting to think ONR is not easier at all, as it only takes 1.5 hours to foam, PW, 2BM, PW and dry


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## Aeroandy (Sep 2, 2009)

I mix ONR in a bucket, then use a wash mitt. Keep washing until the area is clean, then dry.


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## big ben (Aug 25, 2009)

ONR cleans and softens the water, so even when it looks dirty its fine to wash with. On a big car it can be a pain, i can clean my car in 20 mins tops including wheels using ONR


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## npinks (Feb 25, 2008)

Safe even if the water look very dark and dirty??


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## big ben (Aug 25, 2009)

npinks said:


> Safe even if the water look very dark and dirty??


not 100%, i would maybe make up 2 buckets and do half the car with each if its that dirty (and a large car)


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## Ross (Apr 25, 2007)

I use 2BM with ONR always.


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## npinks (Feb 25, 2008)

It just doesnt feel safe to be washing it with discoloured water, even with been able see how the solution is holding on to the dirt, it's still there on the panel when you dry


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## npinks (Feb 25, 2008)

I'm thinking 3 buckets 2x ONR 1x plain rinsing water 

But 2xONR cap fills per bucket and 2 per pump sprayer for pre rinsing wont make my bottle last very long


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## alan hanson (May 21, 2008)

2bm method for me understand you dont need to but for half a bucket of clean water to rinse in before using ONR seems most sensible and its going to use alot really


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## npinks (Feb 25, 2008)

So do I need to get it to have clean water on the panel or is what looks to be dirty water ok to dry off ?? As the only way I can do this is 2bm

I know some use a 1bm so what do they do??


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## alan hanson (May 21, 2008)

im not too sure buts thats the exact reason why i use the two bucket method, if the car is fairly dirty then i understand what onr does however the towel will still pick up the dirty water. at least with 2bm its constantly fresh onr going on.


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## Guest (Feb 25, 2011)

npinks said:


> So do I need to get it to have clean water on the panel or is what looks to be dirty water ok to dry off ?? As the only way I can do this is 2bm
> 
> I know some use a 1bm so what do they do??


Wash the section again if it, or the water droplets, still look dirty. I always use at least two passes per section. The cleaner the panel, the less loaded your sponge can be with ONR solution. The final pass with your sponge should take most of the ONR solution off the panel, leaving only a fine residue to remove with the drying towel.

Using ONR I do not get any discolouration of my drying towel, which would probably happen if any remaining water was dirty.


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## npinks (Feb 25, 2008)

I will give that a try

Final wipe over, i'll wring out the sponge as much as possible


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## Guest (Feb 25, 2011)

npinks said:


> I will give that a try
> 
> Final wipe over, i'll wring out the sponge as much as possible


I just squeeze my sponge a little more than normal. Still enough ONR to give some lubrication but it does tend to pick up any drops on the paintwork quite well.


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## pete5570 (Jun 11, 2010)

I did mine today 3 weeks of dirt and 1 bucket, took 30 mins including wheels, the solution did get a it dirty, but it did a good job. It's raining now and it beading like mad.


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## james_death (Aug 9, 2010)

There should not be that much water on the car but then again if the car is waxed etc that will help greatly the dirt removal, i do 2 passes at least each section but actually i prefer to do 3 passes.
The 2 bucket onr wash i would say one with onr to wash and another plain water to rinse the dirty sponge.

This was my Winter Test.. Oh I see you have already read it...Doh...

http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=197465

This is a non onr i did a few weeks ago and did again today...

http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=203690


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## Lowiepete (Mar 29, 2009)

npinks said:


> How can you use one bucket which discolours straight away and leaves dirty water on the car and dry it, I know the solution is holding the dirt but your still going to be spreading it about by trying to dry it


The discolouration isn't a great deal to be worried about. The scratchy stuff
will be being held in suspension lower down in the wash bucket. The way to 
deal with this is rather simpler than you may think.

As I've indicated in this thread, my final drying wipe is _not_ with a _dry_ MF,
but with an MF lightly dampened with ONR. I would only ever consider putting
a dry MF on paintwork I _know_ is clean, and generally has something like a 
wax or a QD to remove at the time. This dampened cloth I think you'll agree 
is far simpler and quicker than getting confused with several buckets. It also
has the added advantage that you can watch the ONR evaporate and check
for any blemishes at the same time...

Regards,
Steve


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## james_death (Aug 9, 2010)

Cant get better than the advice above from the Gaurdian and luminary that is Lowiepete...:thumb:


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## Lowiepete (Mar 29, 2009)

james_death said:


> Cant get better than the advice above from the Gaurdian and luminary that is Lowiepete...:thumb:


Now James, you can get off your knees... :lol:

I just think that substituting ONR for an ordinary car shampoo _and_ then 
trying to use the 2bm method is a tad risky. Certainly it's far more risky than 
using a foamy shampoo. There is a _trust_ element to overcome with ONR, 
but once over it, you can be home and dry, so to speak. Once I found just 
how far I can trust it, then it became pretty obvious that I could pare back 
several layers of washing complexity and still not risk marring the paintwork.

While I would only advocate using the methods I've outlined here when there's
little or no risk of salt, the basic principles of that method are not only safe, 
but provide a very easy alternative to carrying heavy buckets. With _any_
possibility of salt on the car, the wash bucket is absolutely essential!

Regards,
Steve


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## james_death (Aug 9, 2010)

Lowiepete said:


> Now James, you can get off your knees... :lol:
> 
> Regards,
> Steve


Heck Thats a relief after so many get offs on motorbikes they are not that great at the best of times...


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## Mike_T (Aug 2, 2010)

I can confirm, that one bucket is all you need. I see no point in using 2BM, because I can soak 90% of water into the sponge. Never had any serious soil on the drying towel.

One think I'd like to ask Mister Lowiepete: Is it safe to start washing without presure prewash even when there are visible sand grids sticked to lower parts of the car? I am very unsure in this regard, however I tried it very carefully and presoaked liberally and I didn't notice any scratches afterward. It was a silver car however...


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## Lowiepete (Mar 29, 2009)

Mike_T said:


> I can confirm, that one bucket is all you need. I see no point in using 2BM, because I can soak 90% of water into the sponge. Never had any serious soil on the drying towel.


Absolutely! Optimum have designed their products to be used in the simplest 
fashion possible. After all with Opti-Seal, what's easier than wipe on, walk
away? To my mind the simpler you keep it with ONR, the easier it is. It's
only the salt-monster that stops me from using no buckets at all, so why
bother with more than one?

I wonder how many would readily admit to putting their wash media into
the wrong bucket with the 2BM, even when they are plainly labelled.
More to the point, what do you do when that happens..?



Mike_T said:


> Is it safe to start washing without pressure prewash even when there are visible sand grids sticked to lower parts of the car?


I'm not sure what you mean by "pressure prewash". If you are talking of snow
foaming and pressure washing that off, then the answer is yes, that bit can
be made redundant by ONR, even with the presence of salt. That's probably
why ONR is so useful in winter when as little extra ground water as possible 
is a high priority.

If you mean omitting the ONR pre-spray... The short answer is no! The whole
point of the pre-spray is that it gives the ONR time to do what it does best;
that is get into and under the dirt. Omitting this, especially with salt visible, 
will be very risky indeed!

There is one huge problem with salt in that it needs to be fully dissolved into
a wash liquid _before_ the granules lose their sharpness. It also takes several
seconds for the dissolution to fully take place. Just try quickly dissolving a
teaspoonful of sea-salt granules into a glass of cold water. It may not be so
quick after all...

If you don't have a method of pre-spraying, then at least try and distribute 
some ONR from the wash media over the affected area and then give that a 
good bit of time to do its work _before_ you attempt to wipe it. With heavy
salt deposits present, I'd be tempted to do this in addition to the pre-spray.

One of the things to try and get your head around is the difference twixt ONR
and any other car shampoo. With the shampoo, you apply the wash media 
and immediately start wiping. In terms of marring potential, that is actually a 
huge ask for any shampoo, hence its foaminess. So to address this things like 
snowfoam were developed to try and intervene.

Of course the snowfoam needs a power tool to both apply and remove. What
Optimum have done is to look at turning this situation onto its head and 
providing us with an alternative solution, imo rather successfully. If you see
the first spray of ONR as being a kind of equivalent to the foam, at least in
what it does to loosen the dirt, you won't be far off the mark.

Whether or not a car shampoo will do the same thing is a moot point. What is
certain is that few products can beat ONR at getting twixt dirt and paint in
the way that it does. As someone has already suggested, just try spraying it
at bird-bombs, with a second spray several seconds later.

I should say that it's that kind of test that can backfire by catapulting ONR 
into a "super-cleaner" status, when it really isn't. Same thing with bug splats 
in summer. If you give it time to do its work, it'll reward you by making your
cleaning very easy indeed.

Regards,
Steve


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## Mike_T (Aug 2, 2010)

Lowiepete said:


> I'm assuming you mean the pre-spray... The short answer is no! The whole
> point of the pre-spray is that it gives the ONR time to do what it does best;
> that is get into and under the dirt. Omitting this, especially with salt visible,
> will be very risky indeed!
> ...


Thanks a lot for your answer sir. :thumb:

But I do always start with pre-spraying with a 1,5 l pump sprayer with 1 oz of ONR + water. My question was, if pre-spraying is enough even when there are large (eye recognizable) quartz sand particles thrown by wheels onto the paint and sticked. I have feeling in these ocasions that a PW prewash is advisable. I hope that my question is understandable this time.  Thanks a lot for your knowledge!

Mike


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## Lowiepete (Mar 29, 2009)

Hi Mike,



Mike_T said:


> Thanks a lot for your answer sir. :thumb:


No problem. Ooops, looks like you picked up an earlier version of my reply. At
this time of night I tend to attack missives in stages, thinking through stuff as
I go along. Hopefully, the final article will make more sense to you...

Regards,
Steve


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## npinks (Feb 25, 2008)

Its helped me


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## Mike_T (Aug 2, 2010)

Lowiepete said:


> Hi Mike,
> 
> No problem. Ooops, looks like you picked up an earlier version of my reply. At
> this time of night I tend to attack missives in stages, thinking through stuff as
> ...


I was asking about sand particles, not salt. Yould you recomment do wash it down (with or without snow foaming) before ONR routine? I am sorry I cant specify the question clearly enough...

Cheers Mike


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## Lowiepete (Mar 29, 2009)

Hi Mike,


Mike_T said:


> I was asking about *sand* particles


Duhhhh, senior moment on my part - sorry!

Well, although this may sound a tad perverse, sand is probably a lot easier to 
deal with than salt. If you have sand sticking to the paint, it's probably being
held there by a third-party agent, anything from mud to cement, so it's a
question of doing your best to dissolve that.

I think this is going to be a trial and error solution. My first action would be 
to spray a fairly liberal amount of pre-spray, let it dwell a while, then try a 
second burst around 30 to 45 seconds later to test for any movement. If
no movement, don't give up but try another spray, again several seconds 
later still. In many respects ONR is probably the best liquid you could try this 
with because of its fantastic capillary action.

I have a feeling that with that bit of patience things will start to move and
it should then be a breeze to remove. If it's still sticking resolutely to the
paint, then some very gentle agitation with a wet detailing brush may be 
required. I take my dog to the beach every day, but have not had any real 
problems with sand beyond that first dwell period.

Hope this helps...

Regards,
Steve


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## Mike_T (Aug 2, 2010)

Lowiepete said:


> I think this is going to be a trial and error solution. My first action would be
> to spray a fairly liberal amount of pre-spray, let it dwell a while, then try a
> second burst around 30 to 45 seconds later to test for any movement. If
> no movement, don't give up but try another spray, again several seconds
> ...


Hi Steve,

Sure it helped, every one of your posts is helpful. :thumb:

I proceeded exactly as you say - first pre-spray with ONR, then after a while another shot. The sand loosend well, but I was still unsure to touch it (the sand) with the sponge. But you say it's safe, right? 

Cheers Mike


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## Lowiepete (Mar 29, 2009)

Hi Mike,


Mike_T said:


> The sand loosend well, but I was still unsure to touch it (the sand) with the sponge. But you say it's safe, right?


Yes, as long as you offer plenty of ONR lubrication with the sponge, you're 
obviously well aware of the potential marring, so I don't see any problems.

If the sand at that point is offering little resistance, then I'd not bother with 
setting up a power washer. Indeed, it could be argued that you'd do far more
damage with the sheer force of the water on the sand and against the paint.
However, that seems to be a contentious bone I'd rather avoid.

There is a certain sense of satisfaction with the simplicity of using ONR anyway, 
especially with watching it dry, that's quite therapeutic all on its own...

Regards,
Steve


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## Mike_T (Aug 2, 2010)

Lowiepete said:


> Hi Mike,
> 
> Yes, as long as you offer plenty of ONR lubrication with the sponge, you're
> obviously well aware of the potential marring, so I don't see any problems.
> ...


Thanks againg Steve! Now everything is perfectly clear to me. The idea of marring paint with the PW on sand is interesting...

Thanks Mr. Ghodoussi too for his invention!


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## Finbo (Apr 17, 2010)

I have to say that I've started to become very disillusioned with ONR of late.

I'm not sure if I'm doing something wrong, but I find that both my B&Q sponge and MF towels are filthy when I try to clean the car.

Also, if the washing solution is a little strong it's really difficult to remove and leaves a streaking effect on the paintwork. This can also happen if the wash solution drys too quickly.

I put 2 fl oz of ONR into a bucket and fill with 12 pints of warm water. I also put 1 fl oz into a hand sprayer and also fill with warm water. I use this to spray a panel at a time and leave for a couple of minutes and wash with the sponge (not too wet - I always wring it out) and then dry with a MF cloth.

Unlike other reports, my sponge and cloths (I find I have to use several) are always very dirty.

When I try to clean the wheels, I'm now finding the brake dust seems to attach itself to the alloys and is now really difficult to get off.

It's as though my car has built up a resistence to ONR and needs a good clay or something.

The product gives a good shine and it beads nicely, but I think it's also increased the number of scratches on my car as well.

Can anyone give me some pointers as to what's going wrong, otherwise I'll be heading back to more traditional methods.

Cheers.


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## shine247 (Mar 1, 2010)

Finbo said:


> I put 2 fl oz of ONR into a bucket and fill with 12 pints of warm water. I also put 1 fl oz into a hand sprayer and also fill with warm water. I use this to spray a panel at a time and leave for a couple of minutes and wash with the sponge (not too wet - I always wring it out) and then dry with a MF cloth.


_Add 1 oz. of Optimum No Rinse™ Wash & Shine to 2 gallons of water in a bucket_

The above is taken from the Optimum site. Therefore, you are adding what appears to be too much. Your 12 pints is 1.8 Gallons so even 1 oz could be described as a little too much for what is is worth. This may be the reason for some of your problems like the streaking. At 3 oz's a hit it is not going to last long for a small bottle. I would be interested to know how you get on if you try again but as for dirty cloths etc. ? There is a video on this site where the cloth is spotless after just one wipe over with a sponge. I have not used this stuff but just read the thread FAQ by Lowiepete mentioning dwell time and so on.
All the best, let us know how you get on.


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## Lowiepete (Mar 29, 2009)

Finbo said:


> I put 2 fl oz of ONR into a bucket and fill with 12 pints of warm water. I also put 1 fl oz into a hand sprayer and also fill with warm water. I use this to spray a panel at a time and leave for a couple of minutes and wash with the sponge (not too wet - I always wring it out) and then dry with a MF cloth.


Oh dear. Reading posts like this makes me feel a tad uncomfortable. It's 
always pretty difficult to try and deduce what maybe happening from a 
distance, but I have a feeling that some "tough love" is going to be involved 
in my reply. I have an underlying thought here that you are trying to use ONR 
just like a regular full-suds car shampoo - and this is where continuing to 
follow the 2BM is leading to problems.

To begin with, your wash mixture is way too strong! What happens when you
have it that strong is that polymers take the place of the dirt and you are
working against yourself. It's a bit difficult to describe in simple terms what's
going on in the bucket, especially when you use quite a strong mix in the 
spray bottle.

In hard water areas, just two capfuls of ONR in 5L of water should be quite
adequate. In soft or softened water it's quite possible that just one capful 
will be enough. It's a matter of trial and error which can be a tad difficult to 
gauge because of how few suds there are.

Secondly, don't be parsimonious with the pre-spray. If you are getting areas
where there's evaporation to the point of drying, then you definitely don't 
have enough product on the paint. The pre-spray does a fair percentage of
the work that ONR does in preparing the surface for the cleaning wipe. In 
very warm weather you may well need to do a second spraying.

Next, I'd suggest that you aren't taking enough liquid from the wash bucket 
on the sponge. If there is a heavy dirt coating, try squeezing out some of the
liquid from the sponge against the paintwork, spreading it out in contactless 
fashion over the area you intend to wipe, leaving the sponge still fairly wet. 
Give that several seconds for it to do its work _before_ you make contact 
with the sponge.

Unlike normal shampoo, you should let the ONR do its work. Rather than trying
to adapt the 2BM to ONR, I'd suggest that you adopt the guidelines given in 
several posts here which are proven to work. Once you've got that far, ONR 
is versatile enough for you to experiment and develop your own method.
Hopefully, from there you'll enjoy all the benefits it brings.



Finbo said:


> When I try to clean the wheels, I'm now finding the brake dust seems to attach itself to the alloys and is now really difficult to get off.


Hmmm... I don't think that this has much to do with ONR. My first question 
here would be, when were the wheels given a coat of sealant and what was
the ambient temperature on that day?

There is one part of the small print with waxes and sealants that many people
tend to overlook in their enthusiasm. Attempting to apply paste sealants and 
waxes when ambient temperatures are below 60degF (15degC) can mean that
they can't form a proper bond with the paint. I have a suspicion that there isn't
much sealant presently on the wheels.

Regards,
Steve


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## Finbo (Apr 17, 2010)

Many thanks for your tips. I'll try this next time I wash the car. Not the best weather today, so will have to leave until next weekend at the earliest.


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## dogma (Feb 12, 2008)

I always use a grit guard in the bucket just in case.


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## james_death (Aug 9, 2010)

Not had issue with ONR and thats on a black car and done in the sun when we get it i dont use it all the time just depends on soiling weather and time available...:thumb:

Couple of things to bare in mind a ONR cap is 15ml well so the 2 caps is 30ml.:thumb:

The us gallon is 3.79 litres. Call it 3.75 for ease.

So this would mean for uk measure 7lt water and 2 caps or 30ml ONR for a single bucket wash...:thumb:

The single panel at a time really helps for getting the water off fast especially in the sun what can help also is the volume of water as its supposed to be no rinse if the water is sitting on the paint then a bit of a squeeze from the sponge to laydown a small stream of solution will see the water sheet off the panel...:thumb:


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## Finbo (Apr 17, 2010)

Steve
I have followed your guidelines today and enjoyed much greater success. So many thanks for your input.
One thing though, I haven't been able to remove some streaks from a previous too high strength wash.
Any thoughts how I can remove these? My only idea is to maybe use a clay bar.


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## Lowiepete (Mar 29, 2009)

Glad to hear that you've had some success...


Finbo said:


> I have followed your guidelines today and enjoyed much greater success..


That's good to hear, as stated, it's always difficult to guess what may be
happening from a distance


Finbo said:


> I haven't been able to remove some streaks from a previous too high strength wash.


This is a difficult one... Do you have something like P21S pre-wax cleaner? 
Resorting to a clay bar does seem a tad extreme. I'm quite perplexed as to what
would have caused this. ONR, even at 32:1 dilution, is pretty gentle. I don't
think I've ever felt it to be harsh.

Regards,
Steve


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## Finbo (Apr 17, 2010)

Hi
No I don't have any pre wax cleaner but I do have some Bilt Hamber clay bar, so that's why I suggested it.
I don't know why the streaks are still there. Yesterday I gave the car a really liberal amount of pre spraying and let it dwell, plus a second spray and then squeezed the sponge gently to allow the excess onto the car before gently wiping, but with no luck the streaks are still there.
It probably doesn't help that my car is black either.
Anyone have any suggestions?


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