# Contesting a write off valuation



## Kerr

Obviously our little Mini was written off after she was involved in a crash. 

Admiral have taken a few weeks to finally come back with a settlement figure over the phone today. Initially the offer was £8000 and after she contested it he raised it to £8500 during this call. 

The simple fact is you're not going to get a facelifted Mini Clubman Cooper S of this specification for this price. You aren't even going to get a basic spec car and Minis are all about specification.

I went to great difficulty to find this car and have kept an eye on values since. Supply has fallen and values have gone up. There is currently only 7 on Autotrader and 1 on Pistonheads. The good ones don't hang around long at all and there clearly is a demand for them. 

The insurance guy was trying to force her to accept that they don't have to offer enough money to find a like for like replacement. They only have to offer market value.

Again you can't get one for this market value. Cars are selling for above book prices. 

The call was ended by saying it wasn't enough and he said he'd speak to his boss tomorrow. 

I can obviously reference all the cars available in the classifieds and offer my opinion about the difficulty if getting a good one. 

How else can I force them to pay more? 

Isn't there a requirement to put someone back in the same position as before and offer enough for a like for like car?


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## Dal3D

It's industry wide unfortunately - that's what GAP insurance is for, to make up the difference. Insuring against insurers seems a tad unfair but thems the breaks.
For a relatively small outlay for cars up to 10 years old, it insures against this very thing.


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## muzzer

Dal3D said:


> It's industry wide unfortunately - that's what GAP insurance is for, to make up the difference. Insuring against insurers seems a tad unfair but thems the breaks.
> For a relatively small outlay for cars up to 10 years old, it insures against this very thing.


This was my understanding of the situation, the second you take the car out of the showroom it has dropped it's value and in the case of a total loss, you will only get the market valuation at that time. 
As Dal3D said above, if the car is under 10 yrs old then that is what GAP insurance is for


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## wayne451

As they are covered by regulators, I'd ask them to issue you a deadlock/final position letter so you can approach the Ombudsman. 

Companies don't like it as even if the Ombudsman find in their favour it costs the company about £350 IIRC?

EDIT: Regarding the above I thought GAP insurance only applied if less than 3 years old?


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## Kerr

Dal3D said:


> It's industry wide unfortunately - that's what GAP insurance is for, to make up the difference. Insuring against insurers seems a tad unfair but thems the breaks.
> For a relatively small outlay for cars up to 10 years old, it insures against this very thing.


There is no finance on the car. It was a private sale cash purchase.

I appreciate cars depreciate, especially new cars, and interest obviously adds cost to a car purchase, but in this instance there isn't depreciation and no additional costs.

GAP has its place, but we shouldn't need additional insurance to pay for the actual value of the car.


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## Andyblue

I think from what you've said, they 'may' come back with a slightly better offer - have a look on line and have a few links / site pages ready for comparison to discuss with them when they phone back, to let them be able to link easily and quickly to...

Obviously, you're probably not going to get the full price to replace like for like, especially if prices have increased and they're selling above book price, but you should be able to get close (ish) to - how much short do you think you are ? 

Really hope you get this sorted out


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## Dal3D

It doesn't matter if it's a purchase from a dealer or private - you can still get GAP insurance.
Back to Invoice or replacement car are both possible although one is obviously more expensive than the other.



> Do I need Vehicle Replacement Plus?
> The answer to this is yes, if you want to:
> 
> Protect against the depreciating value of your vehicle
> Protect the value of your vehicle, not just what you paid for it
> Protect against rising costs of new vehicles and/or any discount you received at the time of purchase
> Have enough money to clear any outstanding finance AND be left with any money remaining once this has been paid
> Between the motor insurer and GAP cover, receive the replacement cost of your vehicle - if you do not have any finance, this amount is yours to use as you wish





> Can I buy Vehicle Replacement Plus?
> I have bought a new vehicle, or a used vehicle under 10 years of age with less than 80,000 miles
> My vehicle was collected within the last 365 days
> My vehicle is owned outright OR I have a Hire Purchase or Personal Contract Purchase finance agreement
> My vehicle was bought from a VAT registered dealer OR private seller


https://www.ala.co.uk/gap-insurance/vehicle-replacement-insurance


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## DLGWRX02

Many moons ago I had a mk 1 Fiat uno turbo that was written off as I was hit in the side, the evaluation I had from the insurers was about £700 and at the time I had owned it about 2 months I paid over £2000 for it. I argued with them and provided them with adverts for cars of similar age mileage etc, eventually after refusing 3 offers and having to return my loan car as they wouldn’t pay for anything over 14 days, I ended up with £2150 as that was the cheapest of about 15 adverts I could find, this however was only offered after the threat of getting the ombudsman involved.


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## Fentum

How big is the gap (not taking into account any excess that you will have to cover)?

I wrote off my wife's car last year and then had to fight the adjuster to win an increase of around 33% by challenging them on the facts. 

The obvious point is that "book" is no more market than asking price is. On a popular model, there is less room for haggle so asking price (especially if you have more than ten recent examples) should count for something.

If you want to take it further:

Step 1 - highlight the condition of the car and any trim/extras beyond standard (remembering the need to have declared any modifications). I was fortunate in that I had just done a thorough detail/paint correction on my wife's car and had week-old detailed pictures of its immaculate condition. Ditto a full service history.

Step 2 - gather as much documentary evidence as you can of similar spec vehicles of the same age with similar mileage and higher/lower mileage. Highlight pluses and minuses e.g. lower mileage/worse condition etc. Then do the same for comparable vehicles a year older and a year younger. If you can try doing the same for a sample of the next spec up and down. That should give you a forensically defensible range to work off.

Step 3 - you will then probably have sufficient market evidence to demonstrate (i) that the amount offered will not put you back in the position you were pre-accident, and (ii) you might be able to demonstrate that you could not even get an older car or a car with 20,000 more miles on it for the proposed settlement figure, or indeed a lower spec car of similar age and mileage.

Step 3 - bear in mind, that fighting claims costs money and these characters do not want protracted claims. If you can evidence your claim and you are not asking for an outrageous increase, I'd expect them to try to meet you somewhere closer to where you want to be. I don't know your circumstances but when they eventually believed that I was prepared to walk away and put the thing in the hands of my solicitor, they settled on the same day. 

HTH


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## Dal3D

Kerr said:


> GAP has its place, but we shouldn't need additional insurance to pay for the actual value of the car.


But that's how insurance works and what's no doubt declared in the terms and conditions you agreed to buying a policy.

If you understand the system, you take out GAP to take account of an industry that's set up to always come out on top for the insurance company regardless. :wall:


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## Kerr

Andyblue said:


> I think from what you've said, they 'may' come back with a slightly better offer - have a look on line and have a few links / site pages ready for comparison to discuss with them when they phone back, to let them be able to link easily and quickly to...
> 
> Obviously, you're probably not going to get the full price to replace like for like, especially if prices have increased and they're selling above book price, but you should be able to get close (ish) to - how much short do you think you are ?
> 
> Really hope you get this sorted out


Realistically £10k and that still won't get one of this spec and certainly not of the condition. It was a very tidy car and unbelievably had zero wear on the leather.

Obviously not an agreed value, but the estimated value when taking the policy out was given as £10k. It was a realistic valuation based on other cars at that time.


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## Caledoniandream

You are insured against "book" value.
If they offer below you can contest, hence the reason that anything special can be insured against "agreed" value, at an increased cost.
Check Parker’s and see what they have as book value for private sale, if that is higher than what they offer, than you could argue your case.
Keep in the back of your mind, that if they made an offer, mostimes they stop paying for your courtesy car. ( depending on company)


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## wish wash

Trying to remember from your first post and spec but wasn't yours closer to 12k


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## MDC250

Insurer is only obligated to pay out the pre-accident value as of the day of the accident. Unsurprisingly people are rarely offered a figure they are happy with, certainly at outset. In my experience the only way you will get anywhere is hard objective evidence. Insurer will be using an industry standard to value the car. If you can show better than average condition etc you may bump it up a little. 

Was it a fault accident? I only ask as if not you could pursue Direct against the third party insurer. I'd wager the total loss figure on an engineers report you or someone on your behalf commissions will be more favourable.


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## Kerr

MDC250 said:


> Insurer is only obligated to pay out the pre-accident value as of the day of the accident. Unsurprisingly people are rarely offered a figure they are happy with, certainly at outset. In my experience the only way you will get anywhere is hard objective evidence. Insurer will be using an industry standard to value the car. If you can show better than average condition etc you may bump it up a little.
> 
> Was it a fault accident? I only ask as if not you could pursue Direct against the third party insurer. I'd wager the total loss figure on an engineers report you or someone on your behalf commissions will be more favourable.


It was completely her fault. She was at a junction and thought a chain of cars were all turning left down the road she was coming.

The car at the rear of the chain didn't turn and hit her at 90 degrees right on the nose of the car. The damage was initially estimated at £7800.


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## Kerr

Caledoniandream said:


> You are insured against "book" value.
> If they offer below you can contest, hence the reason that anything special can be insured against "agreed" value, at an increased cost.
> Check Parker's and see what they have as book value for private sale, if that is higher than what they offer, than you could argue your case.
> Keep in the back of your mind, that if they made an offer, mostimes they stop paying for your courtesy car. ( depending on company)


Admiral are stressing the valuation is market value and not book price.


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## Kerr

Even the insurance ombudsman's guide isn't clear.



> need to know
> 
> Most of the complaints we see involve disagreements about the "market" value of the vehicle. This generally means the price it would have sold for at a reputable dealership just before it was damaged or stolen.
> 
> To reach a fair price, it's important to check that the vehicle's details have been recorded correctly.To decide whether an insurer's valuation is reasonable, we compare it with prices in specialist motor trade guides - called Parkers', Glass's and CAP. We'll generally look to see if the insurer's valuation is in line with what the guides say.We might also use engineers' reports to help us decide whether the insurer's valuation is reasonable.
> 
> These can give useful information about the condition of the vehicle. We don't usually find adverts helpful to judge a vehicle's value, because the selling price usually turns out to be lower. But they may be if the car's a classic or rare model.People often have to give (or estimate) their vehicle's value when they're filling out their motor insurance application form. This isn't actually the amount the insurer has to pay out - and we often have to clear up confusion about this.If someone's unhappy with how the insurer has written off the vehicle - for example, if it's been scrapped without warning - we'll look into the insurer's reasons. If we decide someone's unfairly lost out, we'll tell the insurer to pay compensation.


If you use valuation tools for the car then £8500 isn't that unreasonable.

Reputable dealers aren't selling them for remotely close to £8500 though.

I would say that because there is only 8 currently on the main classified sites that it does fall into the rare category.

The car we are looking it at just now is up for sale for £11k. I'm sure the dealer would laugh at me if I offered £8500. The one advertised at £11k last week sold within the week. Neither car has the spec of our Mini.


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## Cookies

Kerr

Have a look at your policy for any definitions, it may be worth checking exactly what they say about market value. The wording on admiral's website is in the image below. First, definitely argue for an increase based on the condition of your car.

Second, if you can't replace the car for the settlement they're offering, argue that it's not market value. I'd provide adverts of similar makes and models, and as Peter says, show what the offered amount could buy, and explain that it's older, higher miles, lower spec etc.

Third, you were not going to sell the car, so offering you the sale price as market value is not a reasonable action, considering you have to replace it. I'd argue that in your position, market value, to any reasonable person, would be the amount you'd need to make a cash purchase. This would likely be a little lower than the advertised price, so make a few calls to some dealers and ask roughly how much they'd reduce the screen price by for a cash sale.

Cooks


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## wish wash

I think the whole insurance industry needs regulating better. Look what's been happening recently with charging people more just because of your name. What has a name got to do with standard of driving. I think they take turns on the tombola machine in the office.


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## Derekh929

For a car that is so rare and in short supply know with apprecing value , it could be hard for anyone to correctly value IMHO
Just cause someone has listed one for £11k does not mean they will get it a chancing apprecating market, I think £8500 sounds a good offer, but just pull out all the adds with similar cars and email the info to the insurer.
For me a specialist policy may be needed for a car that is going up in price or the sellers think it is going up, for me you got such a good car you will never be satisfied by another so try get the most you can using the examples.
Good Luck


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## Kerr

Cookies said:


> Kerr
> 
> Have a look at your policy for any definitions, it may be worth checking exactly what they say about market value. The wording on admiral's website is in the image below. First, definitely argue for an increase based on the condition of your car.
> 
> Second, if you can't replace the car for the settlement they're offering, argue that it's not market value. I'd provide adverts of similar makes and models, and as Peter says, show what the offered amount could buy, and explain that it's older, higher miles, lower spec etc.
> 
> Third, you were not going to sell the car, so offering you the sale price as market value is not a reasonable action, considering you have to replace it. I'd argue that in your position, market value, to any reasonable person, would be the amount you'd need to make a cash purchase. This would likely be a little lower than the advertised price, so make a few calls to some dealers and ask roughly how much they'd reduce the screen price by for a cash sale.
> 
> Cooks


That sounds good.

Not only did it have a full Mini service history the car had the Mini TLC XL pack. The next big service was already paid for.

The car didn't have as much as a ding on it and only a few stone chips at the front. Although they don't consider it the brakes were only a few thousand miles old and the air con condenser a few months old.

It was clear the car was a good one.



Derekh929 said:


> For a car that is so rare and in short supply know with apprecing value , it could be hard for anyone to correctly value IMHO
> Just cause someone has listed one for £11k does not mean they will get it a chancing apprecating market, I think £8500 sounds a good offer, but just pull out all the adds with similar cars and email the info to the insurer.
> For me a specialist policy may be needed for a car that is going up in price or the sellers think it is going up, for me you got such a good car you will never be satisfied by another so try get the most you can using the examples.
> Good Luck


They are selling though Derek. It took me ages to get this 2 years ago and the nice ones were selling fast. I looked at quite a lot and even considered the Cooper. Nearly all the cars were dogs.

It's the very same at the moment with the car has the tasty options. They are moving fast and the undesirable ones aren't moving. There is some hugely ambitious prices for cars with little more than the Chilli pack.

We all know dealers will do some haggling, I've never managed to haggle 23% off a used car. They also don't like cash as they make good money off finance deals.


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## MDC250

No way I could have replaced my S204 C250 when that was written off. Firstly they stopped making them with manual  Second when I bought it was coming to the point where three was a change over to the S205, so there were really good deals available. Not so good when I was having to replace and seemingly Merc prices had jumped up a fair bit.

Annoyingly I'd taken GAP insurance out. The accident was a month or two from memory after the policy ran out  I only had return to invoice but still would have quite like the extra dosh to put towards the replacement. Paying extra again for GAP that will get me an actual like for like car is a no brainer to me. I got a pretty decent deal on my F31 335d and doubt I could replicate it now if I needed to.


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## gally

Hi mate. You are indeed in the right. Someone earlier in the thread mentioned the ombudsman, I think it's actually 500 pounds that the insurance is fined for the complaint. 

Anyway. The words are, valuation to replace the car as like for like as possible from a reputable source. There is no grey area mate. In court they would be laughed at for offering 8500 when a car is worth 10k. 

The simple thing to do is find the adverts of the same cars and email them. 8500 may be a random valuation companies assessment but it's not true market value. Glass' guide (the most trusted source) valued my Racing Puma at £2500... You couldn't buy one under 7k at the time. 

Stick to your guns and push forward.


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## t1mmy

Kerr said:


> There is no finance on the car. It was a private sale cash purchase.


I could be wrong but if you bought it privately I don't think you can use dealer prices to compare against as you didn't buy from a dealer in the first price.

You are also likely to get offered a bit less than advertised prices as there will be an expectation that you will haggle some money off the replacement.

Best of luck with the negotiations.


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## DrEskimo

MDC250 said:


> No way I could have replaced my S204 C250 when that was written off. Firstly they stopped making them with manual  Second when I bought it was coming to the point where three was a change over to the S205, so there were really good deals available. Not so good when I was having to replace and seemingly Merc prices had jumped up a fair bit.
> 
> Annoyingly I'd taken GAP insurance out. The accident was a month or two from memory after the policy ran out  I only had return to invoice but still would have quite like the extra dosh to put towards the replacement. Paying extra again for GAP that will get me an actual like for like car is a no brainer to me. I got a pretty decent deal on my F31 335d and doubt I could replicate it now if I needed to.


Whats the typical price for GAP on use cars mate?

I didn't even think twice about getting it on my new car with finance as I knew would have to cover the shortfall with any outstanding finance, and it was only around £140.

I'm kinda with Kerr on this one. I fully expect to lose value on a used car and don't really want to pay for additional insurance to give me the full paid price back, because I don't expect the car to be worth what I paid originally if I am in the position of a total loss in the future (although it sounds like these Mini's haven't deprecated all that much)!

But I guess if insurance will only ever pay rock bottom price, maybe the GAP is worth it, assuming the price fro decent cover isn't silly?


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## Kerr

t1mmy said:


> I could be wrong but if you bought it privately I don't think you can use dealer prices to compare against as you didn't buy from a dealer in the first price.
> 
> You are also likely to get offered a bit less than advertised prices as there will be an expectation that you will haggle some money off the replacement.
> 
> Best of luck with the negotiations.


It's the Finance Ombudsman that says a reputable dealer for values.

When I'm looking at cars I am also looking at private sales. I'm not using overpriced Mini dealers as my reference.

I would be more than happy to buy privately again. They don't come up privately for £8500 either.


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## Derekh929

Kerr said:


> That sounds good.
> 
> Not only did it have a full Mini service history the car had the Mini TLC XL pack. The next big service was already paid for.
> 
> The car didn't have as much as a ding on it and only a few stone chips at the front. Although they don't consider it the brakes were only a few thousand miles old and the air con condenser a few months old.
> 
> It was clear the car was a good one.
> 
> They are selling though Derek. It took me ages to get this 2 years ago and the nice ones were selling fast. I looked at quite a lot and even considered the Cooper. Nearly all the cars were dogs.
> 
> It's the very same at the moment with the car has the tasty options. They are moving fast and the undesirable ones aren't moving. There is some hugely ambitious prices for cars with little more than the Chilli pack.
> 
> We all know dealers will do some haggling, I've never managed to haggle 23% off a used car. They also don't like cash as they make good money off finance deals.


In that case as Gally says as well email the comparisons and tell them where you need to be to replace it, I would say the ombudsman best kept for last resort IMHO
I'm not sure it's relevent to the value, but will you really buy another?


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## t1mmy

When you speak to them again say that the basic principle of indemnity in insurance is that the insured is placed in the same position that they were before the accident, or as near to it as possible. The insured shouldn’t profit from the accident.

If you have given evidence that this can’t be achieved with the valuation given flip it on its head and ask them to show you where this similar car can be purchased from at £8,500.

Another thought, if you bought the last one relatively locally you can’t really use examples that are hundreds of miles away. I have no idea how far you travelled for the mini but it’s worth bearing in mind.


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## Kerr

Derekh929 said:


> In that case as Gally says as well email the comparisons and tell them where you need to be to replace it, I would say the ombudsman best kept for last resort IMHO
> I'm not sure it's relevent to the value, but will you really buy another?


There isn't anything to use like for like at the moment. None of the cars available have the same spec.

I'm not sure what the plans are. She was attached to the car as well. They are now too expensive for what is an older can now.



t1mmy said:


> When you speak to them again say that the basic principle of indemnity in insurance is that the insured is placed in the same position that they were before the accident, or as near to it as possible. The insured shouldn't profit from the accident.
> 
> If you have given evidence that this can't be achieved with the valuation given flip it on its head and ask them to show you where this similar car can be purchased from at £8,500.
> 
> Another thought, if you bought the last one relatively locally you can't really use examples that are hundreds of miles away. I have no idea how far you travelled for the mini but it's worth bearing in mind.


We chalked up loads of miles to get this car and went from Aberdeen to England a few times. This car was over 6 hours away.

I'm highly unlikely to get one locally. If ones does appear in Aberdeen it'll likely be one of the most expensive. Cars are too expensive here.

There is only 8 in the classifieds currently.


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## Nanoman

Market value is the value they're going for, not what any of the various valuation services value it at. If there's only 8 on the market right now then use them to get your value. 

If 'book' was £12k but they were for sale for £8.5k guess which value they would pay out 'market value'. 

People saying this is what GAP is for are talking ********. GAP is for the GAP between payout and finance or payout and invoice price. GAP is not to get you to market value, that's what normal insurance is for. 

Keep pushing on them and refuse to take substandard offers. The fact there are only 8 for sale makes your job much easier. If you can't go out and buy one for the payout they're not giving you what you are contractually entitled to. They can take into consideration betterment and obviously you need to cover the excess but don't let them screw you into taking less than you're entitled to.


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## MDC250

DrEskimo said:


> Whats the typical price for GAP on use cars mate?


Varies on term, purchase price and whether it's return to invoice or replacement car. Have sent you details of what I paid.


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## DrEskimo

MDC250 said:


> Varies on term, purchase price and whether it's return to invoice or replacement car. Have sent you details of what I paid.


Cheers buddy :thumb:


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## Kerr

Admiral came back with their "final offer" today. £8600.

Apparently one of their guides suggest the car is only worth £5700.:lol: 

I've sat and searched through all the internet for cars and can't find a single facelift car for £8600. The very cheapest is £8800 and then £9975. The one at £8800 is horrible. 

The ones lower in the price range haven't got heated leather, sat nav, panoramic roof, before even considering smaller things like enhanced Bluetooth or cruise control. 

I'm not being picky over minor options. These are all key important options. 

They also don't usually have a full service history either. 

I'll also bet everything I own they won't be close to the same condition either. 

The guy wouldn't be drawn on finding a similar car for £8600. He changed his line from "market value" to using "guide books."


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## wish wash

Kerr said:


> Admiral came back with their "final offer" today. £8600.
> 
> Apparently one of their guides suggest the car is only worth £5700.:lol:
> 
> I've sat and searched through all the internet for cars and can't find a single facelift car for £8600. The very cheapest is £8800 and then £9975. The one at £8800 is horrible.
> 
> The ones lower in the price range haven't got heated leather, sat nav, panoramic roof, before even considering smaller things like enhanced Bluetooth or cruise control.
> 
> I'm not being picky over minor options. These are all key important options.
> 
> They also don't usually have a full service history either.
> 
> I'll also bet everything I own they won't be close to the same condition either.
> 
> The guy wouldn't be drawn on finding a similar car for £8600. He changed his line from "market value" to using "guide books."


What's your plan of attack now then?


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## Kerr

wish wash said:


> What's your plan of attack now then?


We will speak to the financial ombudsman.

It'll need to be her calling as she's the policy holder for the Mini.


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## DrEskimo

Kerr said:


> We will speak to the financial ombudsman.
> 
> It'll need to be her calling as she's the policy holder for the Mini.


Wishing her good luck mate...as if it's not enough that she's been in an accident and lost her car...!


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## wish wash

I think if you were being unrealistic we'd all tell you. To me it's like writing off a high spec jcw and them giving you enough money for a cooper s with a jcw bodykit on it.


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## Cookies

Definitely fight it. Go to the ombudsman and get a solicitor if necessary. 

To even mention £5700 is an insult!!

Good luck. Btw there's no reason the Financial ombudsman can't discuss it with you. The data protection act requires businesses to assess the degree of harm that will be done by the release of information. You won't be looking for information, merely discussing information that both parties will have. I've argued the point on many an occasion. 

Cooks


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## Nanoman

Ombudsman all the way. Get her to write a letter giving authorisation for you to deal with it if they ask. It’ll make it easier to deal with. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## willywonker

Welcome to being a valued Admital customer! I’m afraid this is the problem with buying cheap insurance.........

I had a similar situation with them a few years ago, and it took me 3/4 months of agurging to a value I was happy with - and that’s having had knowledge/experience of doing this for a living.

To be fair in some cases the price guides are wrong, this seems to worse nowadays when there’s more special editions and options on cars for the price guides to track, and also if your car is a sought after popular model, which retails above guide price, or is a specific model that isn’t listed in the guides, and they use the nearest thing...... But often it’s just ‘engineers’ that know very little about most things. Peanuts/monkeys, etc...

Sounds like you’ve done all you can, but you do need to make a formal complaint to Admiral and await their letter of final response before you can go to FOS. They potentially have up to 8 weeks to do this, without this letter FOS will only give you generic guidance. 

The only extra thing you could do is ask Admiral if they have have made an deductions in the value for above average miles and/or pre existing damages (just because there wasn’t any don’t assume) then approach Mini dealers/specialists and ask them based on the exact details of the car what they would offer you as p/ex and what they would retail the car for. Add this to the examples you can find for sale and provide to FOS as part of your complaint. As their website says, they don’t always use ads for similar cars, but if you can prove with overwhelming evidence the value in the guides is wrong, it will help.

If you need cash to get a new car, you can take an interim payment from them without prejudicing your position, but be sure they are clear it’s an interim payment, not final.


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## Kerr

They are sending the cheque for the £8600 just now. The email says it won't prejudice any further payment if required. It also says if we don't contest within 14 days they will see that as acceptance. We've already raised the issue before the email. 

We don't need the money anyway. We can replace it without depending on this money. We're in no rush to be pushed into a low offer.


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## kingswood

out of interest what did cazana value it at? 

theyve valued my R32 at 9k which i thought was reasonable, whereas parkers put it at 6.5k.

id expect somewhere inbetween for a sale.

terrible news for you regarding the mini. think its a joke having to insure inusrance with gap.

as wrong as it is i'd subsidese any crash payout with the terrible pain in my neck


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## Kerr

kingswood said:


> out of interest what did cazana value it at?
> 
> theyve valued my R32 at 9k which i thought was reasonable, whereas parkers put it at 6.5k.
> 
> id expect somewhere inbetween for a sale.
> 
> terrible news for you regarding the mini. think its a joke having to insure inusrance with gap.
> 
> as wrong as it is i'd subsidese any crash payout with the terrible pain in my neck


Cazana aren't accurate for valuations. They are all over the shop. I wish my BMW was worth what they think and that's without taking into account any optional extras in their guesstimates.

Parkers also don't account for options and guess. I've not paid for an advanced valuation.

A quick glance on Autotrader shows 132 Golf R32s and they start from under £5k. £7750 takes you right into the middle of the market with tidy cars available and advertised at that price.

£8600 doesn't even enter the very bottom of the market for a Clubby now.


----------



## Shiny

willywonker said:


> Welcome to being a valued Admital customer! I'm afraid this is the problem with buying cheap insurance.........
> 
> I had a similar situation with them a few years ago, and it took me 3/4 months of agurging to a value I was happy with - and that's having had knowledge/experience of doing this for a living.
> 
> To be fair in some cases the price guides are wrong, this seems to worse nowadays when there's more special editions and options on cars for the price guides to track, and also if your car is a sought after popular model, which retails above guide price, or is a specific model that isn't listed in the guides, and they use the nearest thing...... But often it's just 'engineers' that know very little about most things. Peanuts/monkeys, etc...
> 
> Sounds like you've done all you can, but you do need to make a formal complaint to Admiral and await their letter of final response before you can go to FOS. They potentially have up to 8 weeks to do this, without this letter FOS will only give you generic guidance.
> 
> The only extra thing you could do is ask Admiral if they have have made an deductions in the value for above average miles and/or pre existing damages (just because there wasn't any don't assume) then approach Mini dealers/specialists and ask them based on the exact details of the car what they would offer you as p/ex and what they would retail the car for. Add this to the examples you can find for sale and provide to FOS as part of your complaint. As their website says, they don't always use ads for similar cars, but if you can prove with overwhelming evidence the value in the guides is wrong, it will help.
> 
> If you need cash to get a new car, you can take an interim payment from them without prejudicing your position, but be sure they are clear it's an interim payment, not final.


I echo this.

Put a formal complaint into Admiral in writing, by email is fine. They will then have to address it as per their complaints procedure, investigate and provide a formal response. As said, don't dive straight in with the FOS, wait until you get a formal response letter as that's the way the FOS works.

When complaining, make a solid case for your valuation, provide adverts of similar cars for sale and point out the differences in them, letters from dealer/s should also help, although they are usually reluctant to write them as it takes effort. Be careful with adverts though, if there are also adverts at a lower value (which you say there are not), the loss adjuster/engineer may be aware of these, in other words, don't just cherry pick.

As has been said, an advert is a price someone wants for a car, not what it is worth or what it may sell for, so bear this in mind. A search of ebay "completed" listings may help as these show the actual sale price. If the FOS get involved, as i understand it, they generally work to forecourt sale value.

Include pictures of the car to back up its condition, details of any dealer options or upgrades and so on.

Keep it polite, reasonable and keep to the facts, there's no need to threaten that you are going to the FOS, Admiral will give you details of how to complain to the FOS in their final response letter.

And you don't need Gap insurance to make up shortfalls in insurance offers on the car's value, the Insurers should be settling on pre-accident current market value.


----------



## Chris Dyson

Some excellent advice here and I wish you luck getting more out of Admiral, but unless I am missing a trick, isn't there another option. 

You said that the damage was initially estimated at £7800. They have offered £8600, so why not take the cash and get your car professionally repaired. Just because it has been written off doesn't mean it can't be put back on the road (subject to the write off category) with the appropriate safety checks. Unless you have let them have the car or the policy states otherwise, it is still your property.


----------



## Kerr

Chris Dyson said:


> Some excellent advice here and I wish you luck getting more out of Admiral, but unless I am missing a trick, isn't there another option.
> 
> You said that the damage was initially estimated at £7800. They have offered £8600, so why not take the cash and get your car professionally repaired. Just because it has been written off doesn't mean it can't be put back on the road (subject to the write off category) with the appropriate safety checks. Unless you have let them have the car or the policy states otherwise, it is still your property.


Admiral have said in their letters they don't allow buy backs.

I'm not sure I'd want it back. You never feel the same about a car after an accident and often there ends up more issues.

It was at 90 degrees right on the nose she was hit. The chassis legs are bent and there's even a crease on the passenger's door. The car isn't straight.


----------



## andy665

I'm pretty confident that the Ombudsman would find in your favour if you are able to prove that the insurance payout is unrealistically low - it will be essential that you present examples of similarly specified / condition vehicles and also vehicles at the price that Admiral have offered clearly highlighting the specification / condition shortfalls compared to yours.

I would contest the comment made about this being a situation where GAP should not play a part. Whilst I agree that normal insurance should not see you lose out, an RTI GAP would have guaranteed an easy and more positive position that the one you now find yourself in


----------



## Kerr

We send an email yesterday contesting the £8600. The claim was sent to the next department to review. They have refused to budge on £8600. 

The guy spoke to BMW and apparently none of the options on our car have any effect on the value of the car. He was saying BMW rather than Mini. He was also focussing on minor options such as the armrest and not the big ones. 

Strange again that Mini dealers asking prices for well specced cars is significantly higher than cars with no options. Minis have always been sensitive to options and the prices are clearly influenced by specification. 

He admits options make a car more desirable, but not more valuable. 

He won't even entertain that there isn't a single car available for this money. The earlier phones calls have moved away from market value to solely focussing on book price. 

He ended the call by informing her about the Insurance Ombudsman. He also said to read their website first as it would show they would back them.


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## wish wash

Do they think your stupid. If you can buy one for the money they've offered, you would of accepted and bought another. You can't lose a tenner and get offered a fiver. If you go to the ombudsman and you lose your no worse off.


----------



## Starbuck88

Awful. will follow this thread with interest as we've been insuring our cars with them for years, new ones and old clunkers.


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## Richf

Admiral do have a really bad reputation and previous for stuff like this. 

Wish you the best


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## Nanoman

I have confidence in the OP! He got the A45 sorted eventually didn’t he? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## percymon

I feel the pain, but as ever with cars options are worth naff all when trading in, but are worth loads on the forecourt.

Perhaps Admiral can suggest where to buy a similar vehicle for their offer price !


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## Shiny

percymon said:


> I feel the pain, but as ever with cars options are worth naff all when trading in, but are worth loads on the forecourt.
> 
> Perhaps Admiral can suggest where to buy a similar vehicle for their offer price !


This shouldn't affect Kerr though, trade values are what you get under a Motor Trade insurance, private car insurance should be market value.

http://www.financial-ombudsman.org.uk/publications/ombudsman-news/22/issue-22-motorinsurance.htm


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## Kerr

This is the email they just sent out to my other half.







So they are offering Glass' guide of £8600. That's based on selling prices even though selling prices are based on spec and most cars are light on options.

Does anyone manage to knock 20%+ off a used car sale? I've never managed to do so.

I've no idea where they get their Parker's guide price. That's not the price I get on their website and says it doesn't account for optional extras in the price and is working off an average mileage higher than our car. You've to pay for a valuation for the correction.

How accurate is the Glass' guide? There is so few cars for sale a wrong entry, or a lowball sale for a poor car will drag the value down.

The other issue is the cars crossover the facelift date. Undesirable cars are registered the same year as the new one and are worth much less.


----------



## wish wash

So there referring to indemnity so they place you in the same position before the incident, but there not as your worse off.


----------



## percymon

I bet there isn't a single Clubman S, of the same year, regardless of facelift, options and mileage for £8600.


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## Nanoman

They’re just going through the motions. You’re not going to get anywhere until you go to the ombudsman. Can you verify their glass’s guide? Pop into your local trader and see what their book says? 

Out of interest what is WBAC value? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Kerr

Nanoman said:


> They're just going through the motions. You're not going to get anywhere until you go to the ombudsman. Can you verify their glass's guide? Pop into your local trader and see what their book says?
> 
> Out of interest what is WBAC value?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The car must be logged as a write off as the value has halved since the other week. It was over £8000 as a trade in before. Obviously trade in and buying prices are different.

Strangely the four questions WBAC ask

1) full history 
2) leather
3) sat nav 
4) panoramic roof

According to Admiral none of these matter for valuation.

The other thing I was thinking, the nearest car to me is 350 miles away. That doesn't reflect the market where I live. The prices here are always expensive.


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## Nanoman

Do you have anything in your email confirming WBAC value is £8000? Might be worth saving for ombudsman. 

Dealer and private sales aren’t £600 above WBAC value FFS. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## kingswood

try twitter to the CEO of Admiral.

which was that insurance company that did old for new on house stuff? 

as said in the screen shots by the Op, insurnace is to put you back in the same position as before the loss.

so youve lost a mini clubman with xyz so replace it with xyz. or is that to difficult?!


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## Kerr

Nanoman said:


> Do you have anything in your email confirming WBAC value is £8000? Might be worth saving for ombudsman.
> 
> Dealer and private sales aren't £600 above WBAC value FFS.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Nothing. When using WBAC I only put in a fabricated email address so I don't get spammed.


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## Nanoman

Kerr said:


> Nothing. When using WBAC I only put in a fabricated email address so I don't get spammed.


Find someone with same make/model/colour/year and use their ref? Mini owners club?

Worth popping into your friendly local trader to get their values. Have you had a look at the auctions to what they've been going for there when they've come up? That's real selling price you can use.

Also, get a quote on their site and see what value they value it as (it's usually automatigically valued).

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Derekh929

Kerr said:


> The car must be logged as a write off as the value has halved since the other week. It was over £8000 as a trade in before. Obviously trade in and buying prices are different.
> 
> Strangely the four questions WBAC ask
> 
> 1) full history
> 2) leather
> 3) sat nav
> 4) panoramic roof
> 
> According to Admiral none of these matter for valuation.
> 
> The other thing I was thinking, the nearest car to me is 350 miles away. That doesn't reflect the market where I live. The prices here are always expensive.


Problem with that is WBAC are an auction basis and offer often below cap value, and prices can be regional, as seen on m3 cutters lately loads of m3/4 owners putting in their cars into WBAC you would have been shocked at variations :doublesho

We all want top dollar for our car when we sell it, and usually think it's worth more than they are worth?
The glasses guide used to iclude things like SE , chilli pack , and a few other options.
I think you are looking for something that can't be done that's not meaning you may get mor, but we all know what happens to most added extras come trade in, they make it more appealing for the dealer to sell, nothing more.
Believe you me I'm tight and spends months trying to get deals, but I think your only hope of getting more is using all the examples, if that don't bear fruit just watch you don't end up stressing your self out spending endless hours of your life for a few hundred quid,unless you enjoy that sort of thing, believe you me I have been there, helping some people get better offers in past and succeed


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## Kerr

Derek, I'm not asking for over the odds. I'm asking for the 2nd lowest value car on the market. 

The only one cheaper is horrid and even the ones at £10k don't have the spec of our car. I'll bet they aren't in the same condition, have the same history and their next service covered. 

The financial ombudsman says guides are used, but will factor in if a car is rare and obviously affecting prices. There is still only 8 for sale and I'm sure that counts as rare. 

I've sent a couple of enquiries about cars asking simple questions about history and condition etc. I've had zero response in 3 days. 


I'm not getting stressed at all. That's something I'll never do.


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## Derekh929

Kerr said:


> Derek, I'm not asking for over the odds. I'm asking for the 2nd lowest value car on the market.
> 
> The only one cheaper is horrid and even the ones at £10k don't have the spec of our car. I'll bet they aren't in the same condition, have the same history and their next service covered.
> 
> The financial ombudsman says guides are used, but will factor in if a car is rare and obviously affecting prices. There is still only 8 for sale and I'm sure that counts as rare.
> 
> I've sent a couple of enquiries about cars asking simple questions about history and condition etc. I've had zero response in 3 days.
> 
> I'm not getting stressed at all. That's something I'll never do.


Steve would have been great for this with his knowledge of mini and also car trade, so if don't get stressed you have nothin to lose, but it will take a few months.
I just can't see you getting a car as good to replace it I think you are like me to fussy:lol:


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## Kerr

Derekh929 said:


> Steve would have been great for this with his knowledge of mini and also car trade, so if don't get stressed you have nothin to lose, but it will take a few months.
> I just can't see you getting a car as good to replace it I think you are like me to fussy:lol:


That's why I was trying to get a hold if him. I've not pinged him a PM to see if he might still have access to read them.

I know it will be hard to get another of the same standard, but i will try and would like a fair price to reduce the losses. We shouldn't find ourselves £2k+ out of pocket trying to buy the same car.


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## Kash-Jnr

Kerr said:


> That's why I was trying to get a hold if him. I've not pinged him a PM to see if he might still have access to read them.
> 
> I know it will be hard to get another of the same standard, but i will try and would like a fair price to reduce the losses. We shouldn't find ourselves £2k+ out of pocket trying to buy the same car.


Just keep trying, make them process it through their valuation system with every option 









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## Shiny

Just so you are aware, you are now unlikely to get any further with Admiral. They've issued a "final response" letter, which means as far as they are concerned, they've assessed your complaint and this is their final response, so if you still aren't happy, you need to go to the FOS.

On the plus side, it does mean that you are now in a position to take it to the FOS. Your next step is to gather as much info and evidence as possible to present a detailed case to the FOS, explaining every little detail as why you think thier offer is low, and then wait for the FOS to repsond.

If the FOS decide in your favour, then the insurers will have to up their offer accordingly, or to what the FOS recommend.

If the FOS decide in the Insurer's favour, then all isn't lost, but you will need to take your own action, pay for your own independent valuation and then pursue the matter through the courts. There's no guarantee you will suceed, especially as the Insurers will no doubt use the FOS decision as defence, but you still have the right to do this if so desire.


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## Kerr

Is the final response letter the trigger I need to go to the Financial Ombudsman, or do I need them to specifically refer me?


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## Overdoser

You need to go to the Ombudsman yourself Kerr.


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## Shiny

^^This^^

Admiral should have enclosed a leaflet in their email on how to complain to the FOS :thumb:










Just follow the procedure in there.

http://www.financial-ombudsman.org.uk/publications/consumer-leaflet.htm


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## Starbuck88

Any update? Hope this is going to work out in your favour in the end Kerr.


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## Kerr

Starbuck88 said:


> Any update? Hope this is going to work out in your favour in the end Kerr.


Got the forms from the financial ombudsman the other day. I'll fill them in and post soon.

The cheque finally came through from Admiral yesterday. By the time the cheque would clear that will be over 5 weeks between the accident and funds being available.

I've been searching the classifieds hard for a replacement. I've only seen two cars that I would like and both were very expensive. Both sold within a couple of days. We are in no rush.


----------



## packard

Kerr said:


> Got the forms from the financial ombudsman the other day. I'll fill them in and post soon.
> 
> The cheque finally came through from Admiral yesterday. By the time the cheque would clear that will be over 5 weeks between the accident and funds being available.
> 
> I've been searching the classifieds hard for a replacement. I've only seen two cars that I would like and both were very expensive. Both sold within a couple of days. We are in no rush.


If the same spec etc make sure you screen grab or try and get email trail from seller over price spec = more evidence for you.

I had same issue, managed to get them budge a little, now go for GAP on every car to cover.


----------



## Darlofan

packard said:


> If the same spec etc make sure you screen grab or try and get email trail from seller over price spec = more evidence for you.
> 
> I had same issue, managed to get them budge a little, now go for GAP on every car to cover.


Few have mentioned GAP insurance now. What stops them paying less than you want?


----------



## MDC250

Darlofan said:


> Few have mentioned GAP insurance now. What stops them paying less than you want?


With a RTI GAP policy if you set the level
of cover correctly then it should never happen.


----------



## andy665

MDC250 said:


> With a RTI GAP policy if you set the level
> of cover correctly then it should never happen.


If you get an RTI GAP policy you will get back what was on the invoice, less accessories and RFL


----------



## Cookies

MDC250 said:


> With a RTI GAP policy if you set the level
> of cover correctly then it should never happen.


There's also 'replacement vehicle' gap cover that covers the cost between what the insurance company pays out, and the cost of replacing the car, regardless of whether the cost of the car has increased.

It'd be a fairly simple process for a new car, but how this would work in Kerr's situation with a used car, I genuinely have no idea though.

Cooks

Edit - just Googled it, and for a used car, the replacement vehicle gap insurance, if an invoice is not available, will pay the Glass's guide value (in the case of one insurer) but will cover the invoice cost if it's available. Essentially, you'd be better off, and it'd be cheaper to go for the return to invoice gap policy on a used car!


----------



## MDC250

andy665 said:


> If you get an RTI GAP policy you will get back what was on the invoice, less accessories and RFL


Would it be any different between a new and pre owned car?


----------



## Nanoman

MDC250 said:


> Would it be any different between a new and pre owned car?


No, whatever you pay on the invoice.

I just bought a 2009 GS450h for £9k. £280 got me a GAP policy that will take it back up to £9k if it's written off any time in the next 5 years from https://www.pistonheadsgap.co.uk/ it's a no brainer.


----------



## kingswood

Nanoman said:


> No, whatever you pay on the invoice.
> 
> I just bought a 2009 GS450h for £9k. £280 got me a GAP policy that will take it back up to £9k if it's written off any time in the next 5 years from https://www.pistonheadsgap.co.uk/ it's a no brainer.


so even if ur cars written off in 4.5yrs time and insurnace pay out 3k, the insurnace will make it up to 9k?

what about if you 'happened' to have it stolen and burnt out?!


----------



## Kerr

kingswood said:


> so even if ur cars written off in 4.5yrs time and insurnace pay out 3k, the insurnace will make it up to 9k?
> 
> what about if you 'happened' to have it stolen and burnt out?!


You'd be playing a very dangerous game that could see you in very serious trouble.


----------



## Nanoman

Kerr said:


> You'd be playing a very dangerous game that could see you in very serious trouble.


Yup. Thought never crossed my mind. LoL.

I'm not stupid enough to do that but I did think that with a car like that, any minor prang is going to result in a write-off so it's well worth having the RTI GAP for that price.


----------



## MDC250

andy665 said:


> If you get an RTI GAP policy you will get back what was on the invoice, less accessories and RFL


I use these guys and they seem to include accessories etc.

https://www.gapinsurance.co.uk/policydocs/13-02-2018-InvoiceGapInsuranceTerms.pdf


----------



## Kerr

I'm struggling badly to find a replacement. 

There is currently only 1 facelift Cooper S in the classifieds and a deposit has held the car before the car even arrived at the dealer. I had enquired, but didn't put a deposit down as the dealer hadn't even assessed the car yet and had the mileage wrong on their description. 

There's 3 Works S. One is a dog and at a Mini dealer. One has reasonable spec, but is overpriced. 

The other has lovely spec, but £16,000 for a 6 year old Mini? They are having a laugh. It's not even mint condition either as has a few bashes and scrapes. Two years, two owners and 30,000 miles ago it sold for less than £13,000. 

I think a plan B is needed.


Edit....There is now only 1 Works S. The £16k one.


----------



## tmitch45

I thought GAP insurance was only to top your insurance up to the original price you paid for your car. In the event of a write off and you haven't got GAP my understanding is that your insurance pay out a fair amount for you to go out and buy a car of the same model, spec, age, miles and condition. Unfortunately my Focus ST was written off many years ago and my settlement would have given me the option to buy a like for like car of the same age etc.


----------



## wish wash

Kerr said:


> I'm struggling badly to find a replacement.
> 
> There is currently only 1 facelift Cooper S in the classifieds and a deposit has held the car before the car even arrived at the dealer. I had enquired, but didn't put a deposit down as the dealer hadn't even assessed the car yet and had the mileage wrong on their description.
> 
> There's 3 Works S. One is a dog and at a Mini dealer. One has reasonable spec, but is overpriced.
> 
> The other has lovely spec, but £16,000 for a 6 year old Mini? They are having a laugh. It's not even mint condition either as has a few bashes and scrapes. Two years, two owners and 30,000 miles ago it sold for less than £13,000.
> 
> I think a plan B is needed.
> Edit....There is now only 1 Works S. The £16k one.


your along way off from the £8500 they offered you. How are you getting along with the ombudsman


----------



## Kerr

wish wash said:


> your along way off from the £8500 they offered you. How are you getting along with the ombudsman


They emailed yesterday to say they had the information requested from Admiral to start their investigation. They'd be in contact with me if they needed any further information.


----------



## percymon

Kerr said:


> They emailed yesterday to say they had the information requested from Admiral to start their investigation. They'd be in contact with me if they needed any further information.


I'd keep feeding in information on cars for sale, movement in prices etc to the ombudsman - you have nothing to lose..


----------



## andy665

tmitch45 said:


> I thought GAP insurance was only to top your insurance up to the original price you paid for your car. In the event of a write off and you haven't got GAP my understanding is that your insurance pay out a fair amount for you to go out and buy a car of the same model, spec, age, miles and condition. Unfortunately my Focus ST was written off many years ago and my settlement would have given me the option to buy a like for like car of the same age etc.


That's the most basic form of GAP, most policies are now RTI (Return to Invoice) which puts you back in the same financial position as the day you originally bought the car, some policies now extend these even further and will pay out more than you originally paid to take in to account inflation.

My Leon Cupra is arriving in May and I'm taking out specific GAP cover to cover the PCH agreement and initial rentals - will be about £150 but gives me 2 years complete peace of mind that should the worst happen I will be spared any financial loss


----------



## robertdon777

andy665 said:


> That's the most basic form of GAP, most policies are now RTI (Return to Invoice) which puts you back in the same financial position as the day you originally bought the car, some policies now extend these even further and will pay out more than you originally paid to take in to account inflation.
> 
> My Leon Cupra is arriving in May and I'm taking out specific GAP cover to cover the PCH agreement and initial rentals - will be about £150 but gives me 2 years complete peace of mind that should the worst happen I will be spared any financial loss


Found one from Car2Cover.

Just taken one out for £116

3 years cover, includes all to settle lease finance including the deposit too.

No Brainer for the Mrs Lease motor (2018 Leon Diesel DSG)


----------



## robertdon777

Good luck with your claim Kerr.


----------



## Kerr

I got an email today rejecting my claim.



> I can appreciate and understand what Ms XXXX thinks about the extras improving the value of her car. But, I don't think Admiral has done anything wrong by not considering these extras.
> 
> This is because it's difficult to say what these improvements would have on the value - some buyers may place value on these and others may not. As Ms XXXX Abought the car used it's difficult to know what effect the extras had on the price of her car when she bought it. In any event I think it's likely these extras wouldn't have had too much of an influence on the marketvalue - and if anything, would've meant it would be closer to the valuation price than it could be if it were sold on the open market.
> Ms XXXX has gone to a lot of effort to try and get a similar replacement to the car she had and has struggled to find one around the price Admiral has valued. She says the car is an in demand model which increases the price. She's been looking as far as 300 miles away without
> any luck. This is a key reason why Ms XXXX thinks the valuation is wrong.
> 
> But, market value doesn't mean the same thing as retail value - in many cases this is less than the advertised values of card. It's these higher retail values which is making it difficult for Ms XXXX to find a similar car in the price Admiral have valued. But as Admiral's policy says they'll pay the market value, there's nothing more I can ask them to do as they are doing what they agreed to do under the policy if Ms XXXX's car was ever written off.
> 
> So after considering everything Ms XXXX and Admiral has told me about this complaint, I won't
> be upholding it.


I do agree that optional extras only add value to some people. Some people are willing to pay extra for desirable extras and some aren't.

The point with the Clubman now is if you're not willing to pay a premium for the desirable options you simply won't be able to buy one. The demand is there, and such a small supply of well specced cars, that prices over book price are obtained on every occasion for a nice car.

How can you value a car at a price you simply can't buy one for?


----------



## robertdon777

System and cars/insurance is all wrong with regards to value etc.

If you had of leased it and it was wrote off I bet their valuation of it (because of the extras) would of been double what they've offered you.


----------



## wish wash

its a shame you cant and I cant buy cars ever at market value, but as he states if its in the policy which you've agreed to about them paying market value, his hands are tied. 

Its ****ty but at least now the decisions made and you can move on.


----------



## AndyN01

This whole saga just annoys me.

Here's me thinking that we pay our insurance so that if something nasty happens we're put back into the position before it happened and not out of pocket.

This "value" thing is a joke. As someone once advised me something is only "worth" what someone else will pay for it. We'll pay £££££'s to keep our cars nice so to us detailing products are worth it. To others their "value" is nil because they don't see any value there.

Maybe we need a change in Law that insurance pays out on replacment like for like rather than this "think of a number in a book that's only available to dealers" farce.

How about all options are recorded at DVLA from the dealer/manufacturer when a new car is sold.

And the sale price (and mileage) is recorded by DVLA on every change of keeper and this information is in the Public domain?

That way everyone knows what options the car had from new and the mileage and price is available at every change of owner (keeper) throughout it's journey to the scrap yard.

Child's play to ascertain a "value" for any car of a given age/mileage. OK I realise that doesn't accurately cover the wrecks and our beautifully detailed vehicles but surely it's better than we have now?

Also, can the Ombudsman's decision be reviewed?

Sadly, having worked in a similar environment, I'm guessing they have target clearance times.

So, rather than investigate fully and take account of the evidence provided you get a "quick" response which clears their targets but may not, necessarily, be correct.

I may be completely off course here but perhaps something to look into.

Simple honesty and integrity says you correctly insured your car, it's been written off so you should be able to buy exactly the same vehicle (or as near as you can get) with the payout.

Or is that too simplistic? 

Good luck.

Andy.


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## Cookies

Sorry to see that response, Kerr. Is that final?

One thing strikes me as bizarre. They have made a distinction between market value and retail value, with the former being lower than the latter. 

Now, as I understand it, market value is the amount something can be sold for in an open market. The retail value would be the amount a dealer would sell something for. 

The price you were offered is the book price; i.e. the amount you'd likely be offered if the car was traded in. Surely that can't be the accepted definition of market value. 

You actually said in your opening post that cars are selling for above book price. Surely the market therefore determines market value (through supply and demand), not the book. I think the ombudsman should consider this again, against the values of similar cars you have provided. 

Cooks

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk


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## percymon

The problem is what dealers want for cars as advertised is silly money, whereas the truer value judged by private sales (perhaps a few hundred pounds over trade in) are somewhat different. A quick glance on autotrader shows jcw cars at ca £16k, with private ones at 9-10. 

Of course dealers have to make some money but I do think they are just waiting for a suitable mug to drop in, offer them a reasonable trade in price and make a nice wad of profit


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## robertdon777

Market value..... They just go off trade in price I bet.

Probably just type the reg and mileage into WBAC. Then add a couple of ££ onto that and offer that.


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## Caledoniandream

If you insure against “agreed” value at a very inflated cost.
If you don’t want to do that, you are on the terms of the insurer.
What you think is now a bargain insurance, could be tomorrow very costly.

Retail price is what somebody wants to pay for it.
Like jewellery you pay retail price, but the “gold value” is maybe 20% if the value. 
If you don’t let it value by your insurers you could be in for a surprise.

My car is insured for in case of an accident repair, only to use original parts, if you don’t insure that they can use: second hand or pattern parts.

It’s all where you pay for.

It’s nasty, and very annoying to say the least, but it’s all in the T & C


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## Kerr

Cookies said:


> Sorry to see that response, Kerr. Is that final?
> 
> One thing strikes me as bizarre. They have made a distinction between market value and retail value, with the former being lower than the latter.
> 
> Now, as I understand it, market value is the amount something can be sold for in an open market. The retail value would be the amount a dealer would sell something for.
> 
> The price you were offered is the book price; i.e. the amount you'd likely be offered if the car was traded in. Surely that can't be the accepted definition of market value.
> 
> You actually said in your opening post that cars are selling for above book price. Surely the market therefore determines market value (through supply and demand), not the book. I think the ombudsman should consider this again, against the values of similar cars you have provided.
> 
> Cooks
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk


The email does tell me I can appeal to have his decision reviewed.

He is wrong in his email where he says we were looking 300 miles away. The quote from me was not a single car had come within a 300 mile radius of us. The couple of cars I've been really interested in have been near to Brighton. Both cars were 550+ miles from here.

What does market value mean when I can't enter the market to buy one for the suggested price? Aberdeen is expensive for cars and prices are cheaper elsewhere, but still outside the settlement.

A few dealers have been snapping up the nice cars and influencing values. Obviously other sellers see these prices and price their car accordingly. It's getting out of control now with some Clubmans up for silly money. A dealer called UKi has some crazy priced cars. I did send them an email and got a fob off. Other sellers are sticking firm to big prices.

It's still the expensive well optioned cars that are selling. People are willing to pay the asking price. There clearly is a market and when a seller and a buyer agree on the pricing for a limited supply car that's the market price in my opinion.

I'll have a beer and chew on it over the weekend.


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## Cookies

Kerr said:


> The email does tell me I can appeal to have his decision reviewed.
> 
> He is wrong in his email where he says we were looking 300 miles away. The quote from me was not a single car had come within a 300 mile radius of us. The couple of cars I've been really interested in have been near to Brighton. Both cars were 550+ miles from here.
> 
> What does market value mean when I can't enter the market to buy one for the suggested price? Aberdeen is expensive for cars and prices are cheaper elsewhere, but still outside the settlement.
> 
> A few dealers have been snapping up the nice cars and influencing values. Obviously other sellers see these prices and price their car accordingly. It's getting out of control now with some Clubmans up for silly money. A dealer called UKi has some crazy priced cars. I did send them an email and got a fob off. Other sellers are sticking firm to big prices.
> 
> It's still the expensive well optioned cars that are selling. People are willing to pay the asking price. There clearly is a market and when a seller and a buyer agree on the pricing for a limited supply car that's the market price in my opinion.
> 
> I'll have a beer and chew on it over the weekend.


Kerr,

I'd ask the Ombudsman for some further information to determine whether or not you request a review.

1. Ask the Ombudsman for a clear definition of what they accept market value to be. The Oxford English Dictionary defines Market Value as "The amount for which something can be sold on a given market." As retail prices are significantly higher than your offer, it's reasonable to expect Market Value to track retail prices to a degree, albeit be slightly less to allow for the 'dealer premium.'

"It's these higher retail values which is making it difficult for Ms XXXX to find a similar car in the price Admiral have valued. But as Admiral's policy says they'll pay the market value,...." So, as above, if Admiral's policy is to pay market value, your evidence is clearly demonstrating the prices commanded in the current market.

I'd perhaps also ask what evidence the Ombudsman would usually like to see to support a Market Valuation, as the book value and the prices of cars currently being advertised for sale are miles apart.

If Admiral states that they will use Glass's Guide or CAP to determine the market value, then I think you may have to accept the offer. If it simply says that they will pay Market Value, you could definitely argue that point.

2. Ask for an explanation of paragraph 2. The author, it would appear, has not considered your evidence. The way it has been worded would suggest that they think Market Value is actually lower than the settlement offer. The sentence I refer to is "I think it's likely these extras wouldn't have had too much of an influence on the market value - and if anything, would've meant it would be closer to the valuation price than it could be if it were sold on the open market."

I'd definitely ask for a review, bud. The response reads as if the author has no concept of what the Market is.

Cooks

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk


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## willywonker

AndyN01 said:


> Maybe we need a change in Law that insurance pays out on replacment like for like rather than this "think of a number in a book that's only available to dealers" farce.
> 
> Andy.


We don't need a change in the law, we need a change in buying habits. Most people want cheap insurance. Cheap insurance doesn't get you generous payouts and great service. You can buy agreed value policies, you can buy insurance that will replace your car for you, you can buy insurance that will pay you more than the cars worth, but you have to pay for it.


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## Kerr

willywonker said:


> We don't need a change in the law, we need a change in buying habits. Most people want cheap insurance. Cheap insurance doesn't get you generous payouts and great service. You can buy agreed value policies, you can buy insurance that will replace your car for you, you can buy insurance that will pay you more than the cars worth, but you have to pay for it.


Isn't the stance with insurance is they put you back in the position you were prior to the accident? That's what Admiral say.

It wasn't the cheapest policy. Admiral are a massive company and not some cheap back street company.

You can get an agreed value policy. My opinion is you take them out when you've got a car that you've put so much effort into that you'll never recover the immeasurable loss.

I'm only asking for money to buy a similar car on the market. I'm not claiming back saying I expect a swirl free immaculate car, just a similar car that we insured.


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## andy665

Sadly all Terms and Conditions are worded so that there is inherent flex in how they are interpreted, obviously that flex is always to the benefit of the insurer.

Also remember the Ombudsmen is funded by insurers and run by "independent" people with an insurance background - make of that what you will.

Just further evidence of the value of GAP - in effect an insurance policy to insure you against the insurance companies - total madness


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## MDC250

Admiral's profits are up this year (as are most who have reported so far) and not just by a bit. I'll wager premiums still don't come down correspondingly.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.ft.com/content/c99ba45c-1c57-11e8-aaca-4574d7dabfb6

I'd happily overhaul the market, it's so bent bananas look straight.


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## Darlofan

MDC250 said:


> Admiral's profits are up this year (as are most who have reported so far) and not just by a bit. I'll wager premiums still don't come down correspondingly.
> 
> https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.ft.com/content/c99ba45c-1c57-11e8-aaca-4574d7dabfb6
> 
> I'd happily overhaul the market, it's so bent bananas look straight.


Just had my renewal (not admiral) £286 last yr. Renewal £688😂😂😂 Cheapest comparison so far is £313. Rang existing to say i'm not renewing and hey presto they can do it for £365. They make so much money from lazy people not changing companies each year. Until majority start shopping around and it hits profits they'll carry on doing it.

British Gas found this out recently, for years we've been told about changing energy suppliers but most people haven't so BG have dined out on that. Slowly the public cotton on, more and more jump ship and BG have to lay staff off because profits are down.


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## MDC250

Impressive turnaround in Combined Operating Ratio for Aviva...

https://www.insuranceage.co.uk/insu...k-profit-rise-for-2017-as-cor-improves-to-939

Only winners are shareholders and senior execs 🤬


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## Kerr

I've put a few serious enquiries in today. I've also made a firm offer on a car. 

The issue is the dealer is asking £14,000. Some of the valuation tools say about £11,500 and WBAC say £9000 for selling them the car. A 55% mark up from trade in price is a healthy margin.

I offered £12,000 and obviously no hassle, finance or a trade in. The best she could do was £13,500. 

I got all the story about the car was reserved, but there was issues with the guy passing finance, so they would make it available to me in the meantime. Amazing how this always happens to me. :lol:

I pointed out their in demand car has been with them since December and won't be paying £13,500. She will speak to her manager and get back to me.


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## MDC250

Best of luck with the negotiations Kerr, hopefully will come good for you


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## kingswood

Kerr said:


> I've put a few serious enquiries in today. I've also made a firm offer on a car.
> 
> The issue is the dealer is asking £14,000. Some of the valuation tools say about £11,500 and WBAC say £9000 for selling them the car. A 55% mark up from trade in price is a healthy margin.
> 
> I offered £12,000 and obviously no hassle, finance or a trade in. The best she could do was £13,500.
> 
> I got all the story about the car was reserved, but there was issues with the guy passing finance, so they would make it available to me in the meantime. Amazing how this always happens to me. :lol:
> 
> I pointed out their in demand car has been with them since December and won't be paying £13,500. She will speak to her manager and get back to me.


good luck, unfortunatly cash isnt king no more :-(


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## wish wash

Cash isn't king, they make no money from your trade in and they make no money on the finance deal. I've a couple of friends in car sales and they say all the moneys in the finance deals


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## DrEskimo

Then just play the game. 

String them along and suggest you will get it on PCP, get the discounts/free servicing/extended warranty/anything you can negotiate and then just settle the finance in full within 14days.

Even a low APR will still have much higher interest charges compared to a traditional loan due to the structure of the loan, so should get decent incentives even if it’s not a ludicrous 12% APR rate...


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## andy665

wish wash said:


> Cash isn't king, they make no money from your trade in and they make no money on the finance deal. I've a couple of friends in car sales and they say all the moneys in the finance deals


Very little money in finance deals, or new car sales. Profit is in add ones, used cars but mainly aftersales


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## Kerr

Kerr said:


> I've put a few serious enquiries in today. I've also made a firm offer on a car.
> 
> The issue is the dealer is asking £14,000. Some of the valuation tools say about £11,500 and WBAC say £9000 for selling them the car. A 55% mark up from trade in price is a healthy margin.
> 
> I offered £12,000 and obviously no hassle, finance or a trade in. The best she could do was £13,500.
> 
> I got all the story about the car was reserved, but there was issues with the guy passing finance, so they would make it available to me in the meantime. Amazing how this always happens to me. :lol:
> 
> I pointed out their in demand car has been with them since December and won't be paying £13,500. She will speak to her manager and get back to me.


Well she never got back to me.

I've put a couple of other offers in for other cars and have got nowhere. I've been playing email ping pong with a woman about a Mini. The car is advertised at £15,700 and valuation guides say £13,000. I offered £13,000.

She refused and said that was way too low. I pointed out that there was similar cars at main dealers for less money that would come with a full AUC approved warranty and not their 3 month warranty.

Her latest offer was £100 off. Her email explains that the car they have is very high specification and this adds thousands to the valuation.  How come that doesn't work the other way around. She also points out the other cars advertised on Autotrader.

I've emailed back and pointed out the they've had the car for sale since January and some of the other cars have been on sale for months. They are all asking too much.

I see that Mini dealers are now getting into the big prices for high spec Clubmans. They've added a 63 plate Works for £17,500 today. Valuation guides say £12,500 and it's not even the most expensive Works on AT.


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## AndyN01

Doesn't this add even more weight to your argument that the insurance offer is way too low?

Andy.


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## Starbuck88

AndyN01 said:


> Doesn't this add even more weight to your argument that the insurance offer is way too low?
> 
> Andy.


I was just about to say the same. Funny how you're (kerr) is now on the other side and all the sellers valuing them so much yet Admiral won't admit this.


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## Cookies

Starbuck88 said:


> I was just about to say the same. Funny how you're (kerr) is now on the other side and all the sellers valuing them so much yet Admiral won't admit this.


That's exactly it. It's the market that sets the value, not the little glass's guide book.

Send all those emails to the Ombudsman, Kerr, and ask for a review.

N

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk


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## Kerr

AndyN01 said:


> Doesn't this add even more weight to your argument that the insurance offer is way too low?
> 
> Andy.


I contested the financial ombudsman's opinion last night. His email clearly states it is his opinion and I questioned the accuracy and corrected some of his errors.

He referenced GLASS, Parkers and CAP as valuation tools. I have no access to GLASS, but both Parkers and CAP quite clearly indicate that the car valuation can vary by 30% due to options. I ran the CAP guide and they have a comprehensive list of option boxes to tick. The difference in trade in value between a car with no options ticked and one with our options ticked was pretty much 30%.

He can't say options add zero value when the valuation tools he referenced is clear they do.

I have always kept an eye on Clubman values and have been searching every day for months for a replacement. Still to this date not a single car has come up with similar specification for the price.


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## Kerr

5I've got some entertainment this weekend. :lol:



Departure soon..........this better not backfire as we've no way of getting home if something goes wrong.


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## wish wash

At least you know where your going, I ain't got a clue lol take it you've found another motor


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## Derekh929

Kerr said:


> 5I've got some entertainment this weekend. :lol:
> 
> 
> 
> Departure soon..........this better not backfire as we've no way of getting home if something goes wrong.


Well on that list if it's entertaining it must be Stavanger or Bergen :lol:


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## Kerr

Derekh929 said:


> Well on that list if it's entertaining it must be Stavanger or Bergen :lol:


Ouch Derek. That's half the forum insulted. :lol:


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## Cookies

Derekh929 said:


> Well on that list if it's entertaining it must be Stavanger or Bergen


It's ok Derek. Belfast wasn't on that list, so we're still good chum.

Lol

Cooks

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk


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## mirdif64

It would be an entertaining drive back from Wick.


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## Kerr

We've got another Clubman!. 

We had been looking at Pacemans and Countrymans as there was zero availability of Clubmans. Then the budget got bigger and bigger looking at Paceman Works. 

The issue was she really wanted another Clubman and paying even more money for a car she didn't desire, and is for carrying our old dog about, didn't make the most sense. Although I was quite fond of the Paceman. 

A good looking car came up and it sounded really promising. The issue was it was a long way away. 

The car is one owner with full history. Recent bills including 4 new Continental tyres, brakes and servicing. The owner promised me I wouldn't find a mark on it. 

Sadly I found lots. It's got a few big stone chips touched in badly on the bonnet. It's also got 4 dents on the bonnet that need PDR. They are all in areas I'm confident they can be done ok. 

The spec of the car isn't up to the old car. Cars of that spec are way too rare, but it's fine for what it will be used for. 

The sat nav is crap anyway, but the whole screen makes operational things easy. There's loads of other small things that you don't feel makes much difference, but I missed them on the way up. 

The Mini was completely overshadowed today. I knew before I went down the guy lived in a really nice house. His everyday cars were about 100m away at the other side of the courtyard/garden. We were sorting this out in the outhouse/office and he invited me into his garage. 

He had a stunning Lamborghini Aventador as his toy. 

576 miles today and the car seems fine. There's a fair amount of work to put in over the next while. This car is maybe not as rare as the old car, but it's a bit rare for another reason......this one isn't exactly black.


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## Andyblue

Oh thats great news, glad you've managed to find a replacement - intrigued re colour now 

Looking forward to pictures :thumb:


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## wish wash

I'm glad you've found another motor. One thing this thread has highlighted is we need to be a bit more vigilant when taking out insurance. This can happen to any of us and by the looks of it going of parkers guide etc I think we will all be hit in the wallet.


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## Kerr

I've only got a few hours today so not going to get much done.

Here's me making use of my Polished Bliss prize clothes.

Before anyone comments about the colour I would like you to watch this first.






It's mostly this colour.


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## percymon

Any update Kerr - it must be worth a reveal after 2 months ownership !


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## Kerr

percymon said:


> Any update Kerr - it must be worth a reveal after 2 months ownership !


I've barely had a second to do anything over recent months. I appear to be very busy, but getting absolutely nothing done.

It's another Mini Clubman in spiced orange with a black roof. I've hardly even got a picture to put up.


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## SteveTDCi

Prices seem to be rising still despite them getting older, I think i could squeeze 8k for mine maybe more which means its lost 5k over 5 years which i think is good going.


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## Kerr

SteveTDCi said:


> Prices seem to be rising still despite them getting older, I think i could squeeze 8k for mine maybe more which means its lost 5k over 5 years which i think is good going.


They've been steadily going up for quite a while. Nice ones are selling fast too.

I see our black one was put back on the road last week. I've not seen it appear in the classifieds yet.

A guy on the BMW forum is starting a service where he scans the salvage auctions for cars before they reappear.

We all know what goes on, but look at some of the examples caught red-handed. One guy on eBay buys heavily damaged cars and tarts up the damage to pretend they were only lightly damaged cars. That's dirty as ****.

It's 4 pages, but 4 interesting pages.

http://www.babybmw.net/viewtopic.php?f=74&t=107138


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