# Any1 know what temperature Diesel freezes....



## firebladerider0 (Dec 9, 2009)

The reason i ask is because i tried startin the van this morning & it just wouldnt start. I checked the hoses etc & they aint frozen (tho i have topped up the anti freeze) so the only other conlusion i can come too is frozen diesel, tho im probs wrong.
Any suggestions. Thx.


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## wookey (Jul 13, 2007)

-25ºC I think


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## Ninja59 (Feb 17, 2009)

last time i knew it was about -14- -15


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## adamck (Dec 2, 2010)

> Like most fuels, diesel is a mix of hydrocarbons, and the components have different freezing points. For Number 2 diesel, as the ambient temperatures drop toward 0°C (32 F), it begins to cloud, due to the paraffin in the fuel solidifying. As the temperatures drop below 0°C, the molecules combine into solids, large enough to be stopped by the filter. This is known as the gel point, and generally occurs about -9.5 degrees C (15 degrees F ) below the cloud point.
> 
> This wax then forms a coating on the filter which results in a loss of engine power. The same thing happens on starting an engine when the temperature is below freezing. The filter becomes almost instantly coated with wax - usually, enough fuel gets through to allow the engine to idle, but not attain operating RPM. There are two common ways to overcome this: one is a diesel additive, the other is a fuel heater.
> 
> ...


From WIKIPEDIA


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## Shinyvec (Feb 12, 2010)

I was going to say that it depends on the additives added by the fuel company and / or garage. I know pink deisel soon freezes as I used to use it with the mowers and tractors at my old business.


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## PJS (Aug 18, 2007)

Check the site of the brand that's in it, they may have the info.
Would be really low when it freezes, but before then gelling is when it stops flowing.
There's treatments you can add to prevent that, and just recently seen mention on PH advising on a couple of litres of petrol to do the same thing - about 2% dilution of what's in the tank, iirc.
I'll see if I can find it.


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## firebladerider0 (Dec 9, 2009)

Cheers Peeps.


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## andyboyo (Dec 4, 2009)

The cloud point of diesel is -4.2 degrees, thats the point where it begins to freeze.

Actual diesel fuel that you buy from filling stations is a mixture of various hydrocarbons. Some are heavy and behave somewhat like candle-wax, and some are more light and volatile. The resulting combustible fuel ****tail is a mixture, and as the temperature drops, some of the ingredients start to turn to wax sooner than others. Also, some diesel fuel has special additives in so that it can cope with lower temperatures.

I work on a refinery and the sale spec on the cold filter plugging point is -15 (for Texaco fuels that is). Thats whats in the pumps at the moment


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## gargreen7 (Apr 12, 2009)

i believe there is such things as summer diesel and winter diesel, with the winter version obviously having a lower gel point which is most likely in the pumps right now. there should be some off the shelf additives you could get to stop it turning to gel i'd imagine


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## robj20 (Jan 20, 2009)

It doesnt have to be that cold to start solidifying, with the tractors at the golf course during winter its common to make a small fire under the tank to warm it up then leave the thing running all day. The filters will stop any solid bits getting to the engine but they usually have a high flow to a collector near the engine and this warms the fuel where it then goes to the injectors. I dont think it will go cold enough in the uk on a regular basis for it to be an issue for modern cars.


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## johnnyguitar (Mar 24, 2010)

My (diesel) car is really struggling to start in these temps.


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## bigmc (Mar 22, 2010)

johnnyguitar said:


> My (diesel) car is really struggling to start in these temps.


That's not the derv, my mondeo tdci started at -8 this morning with one go on the plugs.


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## johnnyguitar (Mar 24, 2010)

I'm fairly certain it's the car as well - known poor cold-starter apparently, but I did wonder if the temperature had an effect on the diesel.


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## dubnut71 (Jul 25, 2006)

Not sure what temp ULSD freezes at but I am pretty sure the water thats in it freezes at 0 Deg C .......:thumb:


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## Auto Detox (Dec 22, 2007)

It could very well be a problem with your engine I'm no mechanic but from experience glow plugs or injectors, might be worth a trip to a local garage

Baz


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## bigmc (Mar 22, 2010)

dubnut71 said:


> Not sure what temp ULSD freezes at but I am pretty sure the water thats in it freezes at 0 Deg C .......:thumb:


Doesn't quite work like that. We have hcl in work that's 64% water with a gel point of -75


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## Nanoman (Jan 17, 2009)

To the OP it depends on the mix. The AA and RAC have said that they are going to a lot of breakdowns due to diesel freezing. My 2009 audi has had trouble starting in the cold and stalled twice with no load on the engine first thing in the AM. My dad's X-trail has also been having a fuel starvation issue since he filled up at Asda on Thursday. When it got to half empty he topped it up at Shell and it's almost back to normal.


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## bigmc (Mar 22, 2010)

^^ ah crappy supermarket fuel with no additives has a lot to answer for, shell v-power and shell V-power only gor mine thanks.


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## mighty82 (May 13, 2009)

The most common reason for problems with diesel engines in Norway this time of the year is diesel filters that hasn't been changed when they should. The people at the local garage told me they had to change filters on a lot of cars that wouldn't start because of the cold period we had lately. Old dirty filters will clog much easier in cold temps. 

I have never had any trouble starting the car, even in -30 degrees, but then we have winter diesel made for cold conditions here.


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## firebladerider0 (Dec 9, 2009)

Wow as usual you can rely on the DW crowd to help with a range of issues. Many thx to you all who have replied.
Further to what Auto Detox said about the injectors/glow plugs, i have a citroen dispatch 2.0ltr HDI so would they still be an issue as i was told by the garage i bought it off that you dont have ta wait for the light to go out before starting (tho i will add i did turn the ignition on/off several times before i turned the key today).


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## bigmc (Mar 22, 2010)

Yes but iirc it's a turbo and manifold off job to change them.


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## centenary (Sep 5, 2010)

Well touch wood, my 3 series workhorse, a 320d, now has to sleep outside and its been ffffff flippin' cold round here, down to -9.5 at times.

Car has started first time, every time. Heater light comes on for about a second and that's it.

Oh, and it normally drinks soooooopermarket diesel. No sign of waxing either (touch wood!).

Beep, beep :driver:


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## nickmak (May 29, 2010)

I think if you add stuff like Redex it should be able to help with cold starts!


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## SNAKEBITE (Feb 22, 2010)

I know that a friend at work who runs on vegetable oil has a pre heater. It warms the fuel before going into the engine.
It can be fitted to diesel engines as well.

In Siberia they light a bonfire under the tanks to warm them up......... not being a lot of help am I?


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## spanner16 (Dec 6, 2010)

andyboyo said:


> The cloud point of diesel is -4.2 degrees, thats the point where it begins to freeze.
> 
> Actual diesel fuel that you buy from filling stations is a mixture of various hydrocarbons. Some are heavy and behave somewhat like candle-wax, and some are more light and volatile. The resulting combustible fuel ****tail is a mixture, and as the temperature drops, some of the ingredients start to turn to wax sooner than others. Also, some diesel fuel has special additives in so that it can cope with lower temperatures.
> 
> I work on a refinery and the sale spec on the cold filter plugging point is -15 (for Texaco fuels that is). Thats whats in the pumps at the moment


Hi andyboyo, when are the additives put in? at the refinery or at the depot? and is there really a difference between supermarket fuels and gargae fuels?


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## bigmc (Mar 22, 2010)

Yes there's a massive difference between Shell fuels and supermarket fuels, my old man works in Stanlow (Shell). No detergents or lubricants in the supermarket crap.


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## evotuning (Oct 16, 2009)

Last winter we had in Poland quite a lot of days when temperature was about -25,sometimes -30, and I had absolutly no problems with starting my 6 years old diesel, neither do my father in his 10 year old Audi TDI.

So your problems seems to be quite strange to me, IMO any issues with starting up in such temperatue are caused by technical problems, not temperature.


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## PLuKE (Mar 4, 2009)

My derv makes a right racket in this cold temps, PD engine. It fires up first time bu chugs and rattles and is very misfire sounding with a puff of blue smoke. Only does this in the cold winter months -5 here this morning.

Luke


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## andyboyo (Dec 4, 2009)

spanner16 said:


> Hi andyboyo, when are the additives put in? at the refinery or at the depot? and is there really a difference between supermarket fuels and gargae fuels?


Summer and winter diesel are refined and blended to different specs. Lubricants and detergents are in the main added at the last minute when the road tankers load up. Most products actually don't leave via road tankers but leave by sea (in the case of US markets mainly) or via a mainline to other storage depots or airports across the UK. The lubricants and additives will be added at the final storage depots in these cases.

There is a difference between supermarket fuels and branded fuels. Where I work they supply Texaco and Shell as well as Tescos in the UK via road tankers.


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## ianFRST (Sep 19, 2006)

yeah clogged up fuel filters make it harder for the thicker diesel to pass through when really cold

also check your battery, they suffer from cold aswell


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## Waka (Jun 9, 2010)

bigmc said:


> ^^ ah crappy supermarket fuel with no additives has a lot to answer for, shell v-power and shell V-power only gor mine thanks.


Is that still true these days?
I've run a few of my old cars on supermarket stuff with no ill effects. Currently on shell though


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## SNAKEBITE (Feb 22, 2010)

After Tesco cut the points on fuel by half (1 point for every £2 not £1) I have gone back to shell.


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## bigmc (Mar 22, 2010)

Waka said:


> Is that still true these days?
> I've run a few of my old cars on supermarket stuff with no ill effects. Currently on shell though


Yes as above I would only put supermarket fuel in my car in an emergency, even then it would only be £5-10 to get me to a Shell or BP at a push.


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## spanner16 (Dec 6, 2010)

bigmc said:


> Yes there's a massive difference between Shell fuels and supermarket fuels, my old man works in Stanlow (Shell). No detergents or lubricants in the supermarket crap.


So whats the difference then? no proof seems to exist apart from hearsay and anecdotes and quote additives as if that proves it in itself, you would have thought one of the motoring organisations/programs could easily demonstrate this.


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## bigmc (Mar 22, 2010)

When have you ever seen Shell in the news paying out compensation for ruining people engines like Morrisons? It's not hearsay either my old man works in Shell Stanlow and knows the additives aren't put in supermarket fuel because it reduces their profit margins.


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## spanner16 (Dec 6, 2010)

bigmc said:


> When have you ever seen Shell in the news paying out compensation for ruining people engines like Morrisons? It's not hearsay either my old man works in Shell Stanlow and knows the additives aren't put in supermarket fuel because it reduces their profit margins.


AIUI the Morrisons problem also affected ASDA, Tesco and Total and was traced to a batch made by Greenenergy, one of the top three fuel suppliers in the UK, and blamed on too much silicone. I don't know that it proves anything really, a contaminated batch made by a supplier doesn't incriminate the retailer. Sorry but hearsay is exactly what we are talking about here.


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## David (Apr 6, 2006)

to be honest, in lonend (paisley) there is a shell and a morrisons on the same road selling fuel and they both sell it at the same price per litre

why anyone would buy it from morrisons other than convenience after doing their shopping is beyond me.


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## andyboyo (Dec 4, 2009)

spanner16 said:


> AIUI the Morrisons problem also affected ASDA, Tesco and Total and was traced to a batch made by Greenenergy, one of the top three fuel suppliers in the UK, and blamed on too much silicone. I don't know that it proves anything really, a contaminated batch made by a supplier doesn't incriminate the retailer. Sorry but hearsay is exactly what we are talking about here.


You obviously know better than me despite me actually working in an oil refinery :thumb:


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## spanner16 (Dec 6, 2010)

andyboyo said:


> You obviously know better than me despite me actually working in an oil refinery :thumb:


I was referring to bigmc saying his dad had said so, which bit are you taking issue with? I thought that was exactly what hearsay was " having got the information from another without having direct involvement"
I emailed the oil companies asking about the additives, BP have told me that some additives are added at the refining stage but performance enhancing additives are added at the loading rack, would you agree with that?


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## bigmc (Mar 22, 2010)

spanner16 said:


> I was referring to bigmc saying his dad had said so, which bit are you taking issue with? I thought that was exactly what hearsay was " having got the information from another without having direct involvement"
> *I emailed the oil companies asking about the additives, BP have told me that some additives are added at the refining stage but performance enhancing additives are added at the loading rack, would you agree with that?*


Isn't that hearsay as you have no involvement?


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## spanner16 (Dec 6, 2010)

bigmc said:


> Isn't that hearsay as you have no involvement?


No it isn't


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## bigmc (Mar 22, 2010)

spanner16 said:


> No it isn't


Why? You're having the same involvements as me talking to my dad :wall:


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## andyboyo (Dec 4, 2009)

spanner16 said:


> I was referring to bigmc saying his dad had said so, which bit are you taking issue with? I thought that was exactly what hearsay was " having got the information from another without having direct involvement"
> I emailed the oil companies asking about the additives, BP have told me that some additives are added at the refining stage but performance enhancing additives are added at the loading rack, would you agree with that?


Sorry I've got confused somewhere here. Your information from BP is true. Additives to make fuels conform with British Standards or European Standards or whichever market they are being exported to are added at the refining stage in the blend tanks if required. Performance enhancing additives are added at the rack (or in a smaller customer dedicated storage tank just prior to loading) which is post blending. So when a supermarket road tanker wagon (RTW) loads they may not have the same lubricants and performance enhancing additives as a branded fuel. :thumb:


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## Roswell (Aug 11, 2008)

mine was in a semi frozed state on monday morning -12 C the car sounded like a bag of spades as it tried to start.


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## andyboyo (Dec 4, 2009)

spanner16 said:


> AIUI the Morrisons problem also affected ASDA, Tesco and Total and was traced to a batch made by Greenenergy, one of the top three fuel suppliers in the UK, and blamed on too much silicone. I don't know that it proves anything really, a contaminated batch made by a supplier doesn't incriminate the retailer. Sorry but hearsay is exactly what we are talking about here.


So in effect what you are saying here is that the mistake was made at the blending stage and not at the rack which is where brand dedicated lubricants and additives are added ? I'm surprised it got past their quality control lab tbh


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## spanner16 (Dec 6, 2010)

bigmc said:


> Why? You're having the same involvements as me talking to my dad :wall:


Look its not really worth getting into this but if the only evidence that supermarket fuels are "crap" is because you say that your dad said so is not really enough to go to court over is it? BP have gone into writing saying that the only additives they put in after the refining process are performance enhancing (such as go into BP Ultimate) to make premium fuels, the conclusion is that basic fuels coming out of the refinery are all the same, or at least as far as BP are concerned. I suspect this is true of all refineries and nobody has (yet) proved otherwise


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## spanner16 (Dec 6, 2010)

andyboyo said:


> So in effect what you are saying here is that the mistake was made at the blending stage and not at the rack which is where brand dedicated lubricants and additives are added ? I'm surprised it got past their quality control lab tbh


From what I've read the silicone is added as an antifoaming agent put in to reduce frothing during transport, there is a long list of outlets that were affected by this overdosing so its hard to see how it would have been at the loading rack, doesn,t it sound more like a batch problem than a continual dosing error?? Is silicone added as an standard industry wide thing? if so when do you add yours?


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## centenary (Sep 5, 2010)

Interesting the way this has developed.

Being an older fart who's been driving for 30 odd years I can remember garages saying avoid supermarket petrol when the supermarkets moved into the petrol retail trade. It puts a varnish on your bores, it contains grit because its not refined properly. 

Sounded like protectionism them just as it does now imho.

As I said, I've run my 320d workhorse, which now has 148,000 miles on the clock, all driven by me and nearly all on 'supermarket' diesel. I get an average 56mpg.

I've tried Shell, Texaco and BP Ultima(?) diesel at 127p a litre and not noticed a scrap of difference in fuel consumption, engine power or performance.

No doubt some will say that's because I'd probably need to stick a few tankfuls through. Maybe. But, in the motoring organisation publication I subscribe to, I frequently read about this supermarket v Shell \ BP etc fuel debate where people who used to put supermarket fuel in their cars switch to 'branded' fuel and claim

a) an immediate improvement in mpg
b) an immediate improvement in engine response
c) and immediate improvement in performance

Perhaps they do.

However, I also used to told by people in the motor trade that imported cars were made of thinner metal despite being built on the same production line as cars intended for UK dealerships. 

This was even more weird when you consider the winters in Europe are normally far harsher than here yet these cars made from 'thinner' metal dont rust any quicker than the UK 'thicker' metalled equivalent.

As regards branded fuel having different additives etc than supermarket fuels, wouldnt supermarkets have been done by now by Trading Standards for publically declaring 'their' fuel is no different to Shell, BP et al as they did when the engine damage was done due to dodgey fuel in the south east a few years back?

all just my opinion and observation though.

Beep, beep :driver:


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## Bero (Mar 9, 2008)

spanner16 said:


> BP have gone into writing saying that the only additives they put in after the refining process are performance enhancing


I'm not saying you are right or wrong but does this not depend on what 'performance enhancing' means; better lubtication or cleaning agents or anything else could be classed as performance enhancing despite not incresing octane/cetain ratings.

I've not got much else to add other than i remember Shell Vpower is the only fuel that is actually manufactured/blended differently from *all* other fuel whether its standard supermarket or BP ultimate. I use Vpower and Tesco Momentum without problem.


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## spanner16 (Dec 6, 2010)

Bero said:


> I'm not saying you are right or wrong but does this not depend on what 'performance enhancing' means; better lubtication or cleaning agents or anything else could be classed as performance enhancing despite not incresing octane/cetain ratings.
> 
> I've not got much else to add other than i remember Shell Vpower is the only fuel that is actually manufactured/blended differently from *all* other fuel whether its standard supermarket or BP ultimate. I use Vpower and Tesco Momentum without problem.


This is what BP wrote "However for performance enhancing additives which may differentiate "normal" fuels from other premium branded fuels such as BP Ultimate, these are added at the point of loading of the vehicles carrying out deliveries to the retail stations and are unique to the particular brand and grade" you may be right about what they may mean by "performance enhancing" 
I am contending that the basic fuels are the same with the same additives, I personally don't think its worth the supermarkets taking the risk of making deliberately inferior products for this type of product, I think they rely on volume sales to give them the same profit as an equivalent branded station


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## SNAKEBITE (Feb 22, 2010)

I think the supermarkets rely on people being lazy, wanting the bonus card points and being ignorant.
Drawing a comparison with the "Wheeler Dealer polishing thread" we are a bunch of car junkies who have more knowledge than the basic joe public.
What they are perfectly happy with we are not.

In my opinion Shell is superior to the Tesco fuel I was using. It was only the clubcard points that were keeping me there.


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## spanner16 (Dec 6, 2010)

SNAKEBITE said:


> I think the supermarkets rely on people being lazy, wanting the bonus card points and being ignorant.
> Drawing a comparison with the "Wheeler Dealer polishing thread" we are a bunch of car junkies who have more knowledge than the basic joe public.
> What they are perfectly happy with we are not.
> 
> In my opinion Shell is superior to the Tesco fuel I was using. It was only the clubcard points that were keeping me there.


Not sure that I agree with the bonus points conclusion as I see quite a number of folks who don't bother with them, I think its more likely price and convenience

I agree with you about the car junkie bit, having been a petrol head in the past I used to do all sorts of stuff to enhance my motoring pleasure and at the time would defend my choice to the last pint no matter what. We all have our opinions and tend to only use facts that support our point of view and ignore those that don't. I think supermarkets probably shop around for their fuel so buy from different oil companies, earlier in this thread andyboyo says that the refinery where he works supplies Texaco, Shell and Tesco so I guess you pays your money and takes your choice, doesn't mean you're right though : )


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## andyboyo (Dec 4, 2009)

> As regards branded fuel having different additives etc than supermarket fuels, wouldnt supermarkets have been done by now by Trading Standards for publically declaring 'their' fuel is no different to Shell, BP et al as they did when the engine damage was done due to dodgey fuel in the south east a few years back?
> 
> all just my opinion and observation though.
> 
> Beep, beep :driver:


I think I said earlier that the fuels to supermarkets and branded stations all conform to the relevant standards so the supermarkets' claim is correct. The performance enhancing additives and detergents are added by brand at the loading rack (ie when the fuel is loaded into the wagon for delivery). :thumb:


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## Grizzle (Jul 12, 2006)

andyboyo said:


> I think I said earlier that the fuels to supermarkets and branded stations all conform to the relevant standards so the supermarkets' claim is correct. The performance enhancing additives and detergents are added by brand at the loading rack (ie when the fuel is loaded into the wagon for delivery). :thumb:


Exactly!!

EN590 is what all diesel fuel must meet if it is to be sold in the uk.

The additive is what the fuel company's have made for that particular gimmick of fuel they are selling i.e Shell V-power Diesel.


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## andyboyo (Dec 4, 2009)

Grizzle said:


> Exactly!!
> 
> EN590 is what all diesel fuel must meet if it is to be sold in the uk.
> 
> The additive is what the fuel company's have made for that particular gimmick of fuel they are selling i.e Shell V-power Diesel.


:thumb:


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## Guest (Dec 8, 2010)

A few club members run wvo, they are having fun in the cold :lol:


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## BrummyPete (Jun 10, 2010)

I always use Shell in my cars, about 4 years ago a friend of mine had 2 identical scooters for his kids, he rebuilt the engines on them with brand new pistons etc and set up a little test over a period of a year. One was run on shell and one was run on asda fuel, both scooters did approximately 7000 miles over the period of 12 months and both were maintained in exactly the same way, oil/filter changes etc etc. At the end of the 12 months my friend took apart the engines and on the piston on the bike that was used on Asda fuel had carbon particles all over it, and the piston that had been run on Shell fuel was nice and shiny and almost like new, so it does appear to make a difference over a period of time. Whether its worth paying extra is debatable though, depends how much you love your car. As an extra note even though the bike that was run on Asda fuel did have carbon particles present, it did not appear to affect the running of the bike.


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## bigmc (Mar 22, 2010)

The extra is debatable though, 1p per litre is 60p per tank roughly.


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