# Electricity meter broken - how will they work out our bill



## tmitch45 (Jul 29, 2006)

We had a call from our electricity provider asking for a current reading. My wife gave them the reading and the woman who said "It cannot be it was that last time". The woman went on to say that our meter was obviously broken and arranged a replacement to be fitted. We happened to look at our duel fuel bill yesterday and noticed we were over £3K in credit???? So we phoned up to see what was happening. Sainsburys confirmed we were £3K in credid because they have refunded everything we have paid so far and were working out how much we owe them. My question/concern is, how can they work out exactly what we owe them? I guess they could look at last winter (same period last year) but for us this is incorrect as we have since upgraded our insulation and electrics by LED throughout our house. Some of our (optimistic friends) have said we should challenge them as we owe nothing as they cannot prove what we have used. Although that would be nice, we have obviously been using electricity for the last 6 months so I'm not looking for free electricity from them but I also don't want a huge estimated bill. Following our last phone call we were told a man was working things our and this would take him weeks????

My question is, have people experienced the same is there anything we should be doing? How can they work out our bill?? Should we pay or would we be able to negotiate as nothing can be proved???

Thanks

On reflection not sure if this would be better in the money section??


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## LewisChadwick7 (Aug 22, 2014)

they work out based on estimates for same quarters over the past few years, i used to have to do this every day and a right PITA as whatever explanation i offered the customer always had 'worked it out' to be chepaer or next to nothing :lol: one of the reasons it's worth saving your bills though


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## GleemSpray (Jan 26, 2014)

tmitch45 said:


> Some of our (optimistic friends) have said we should challenge them as we owe nothing as they cannot prove what we have used.


If and when a dispute eventually ends up in Court, it will be decided on the basis of what was "Fair and Reasonable", given the history and the facts.

As you say, you will have definitely have used some electricity, but in the absence of readings, the service provider will have to estimate.

You can make the argument that the meter might well have already stopped working when the last reading took place, so why don't you suggest an estimate from that point onwards, based on previous records minus, say, 50% ? ( which allows room for haggling...)

The supplier wont want a costly drawn out battle that ends up in court, so will reach some sort of agreement with you i think.


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## petemattw (Nov 3, 2008)

as someone working for a large utility provider (not telling you which one) Sainsburys is actually a whitelabel for British Gas. OFGEM states that companies cannot charge unless they can acurately prove what you owe. It's the same for anyone who has not received an invoice for over 12 months. If they cannot prove then challenge them with OFGEM and don't pay it. There are lots of regulations in energy which companies must comply with!


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## tmitch45 (Jul 29, 2006)

Thanks for the replies so far guys. it sounds like they cannot prove what we have used we should be able to negotiate a good deal? or as people on other forums do we suggest we don't owe anything??? Had a look over on the money saving expert and there seem to be a few reports of people getting 50% off their bill and others getting theirs for free. One persons meter had stopped working and the provider charged them nothing for 6 months electricity. I don't want to get in to the to and fro of messing around with a dispute and definitely one that heads any where near a court I just don't want an inflated bill that not correct.


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## LewisChadwick7 (Aug 22, 2014)

tmitch45 said:


> Thanks for the replies so far guys. it sounds like they cannot prove what we have used we should be able to negotiate a good deal? or as people on other forums do we suggest we don't owe anything??? Had a look over on the money saving expert and there seem to be a few reports of people getting 50% off their bill and others getting theirs for free. One persons meter had stopped working and the provider charged them nothing for 6 months electricity. I don't want to get in to the to and fro of messing around with a dispute and definitely one that heads any where near a court I just don't want an inflated bill that not correct.


best thing to do is have a look at your last 3 years consumption for the same period and have a figure in your mind roughly what you would have used, it then gives you something to work with and play from there try getting some knocked off for the inconvenience and messing about


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## RedUntilDead (Feb 10, 2009)

this is interesting, please keep us updated.

Part of my argument if this happened to me would be to quote the suppliers figures.on every bill they post figures of what similar properties in my area are using and they are always a lot lower then mine. My house is a fairly new build, new top of the range gas boiler, energy efficient lighting and appliances, only two of us who are out of the house weekdays 08:00 - 19:30 with only the alarm clock, oven clock, fridge freezer,modem and alarm pulling juice! How can the families around me with stay at home mums with pets use a lot less energy than me? its tosh I know.


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## tmitch45 (Jul 29, 2006)

RedUntilDead said:


> this is interesting, please keep us updated.
> 
> Part of my argument if this happened to me would be to quote the suppliers figures.on every bill they post figures of what similar properties in my area are using and they are always a lot lower then mine. My house is a fairly new build, new top of the range gas boiler, energy efficient lighting and appliances, only two of us who are out of the house weekdays 08:00 - 19:30 with only the alarm clock, oven clock, fridge freezer,modem and alarm pulling juice! How can the families around me with stay at home mums with pets use a lot less energy than me? its tosh I know.


Bit of an update. One of the reasons I don't feel they can accurately average our bill is that since the same period last year we fitted LED bulbs and upgraded the loft insulation. We have since been onto our online account and all our previous bills have been removed so we couldn't work things out for ourselves.


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## Rundie (Oct 2, 2007)

tmitch45 said:


> We have since been onto our online account and all our previous bills have been removed so we couldn't work things out for ourselves.


If need be I'm sure you could request these under the data protection act ?


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## wayne451 (Aug 15, 2016)

tmitch45 said:


> Bit of an update. One of the reasons I don't feel they can accurately average our bill is that since the same period last year we fitted LED bulbs and upgraded the loft insulation. We have since been onto our online account and all our previous bills have been removed so we couldn't work things out for ourselves.


What's loft insulation got to do with electricity usage or are you on electric heating?

As someone else has said, Sainsbury's Energy is British Gas. The bills are archived so can still be accessed, albeit not by yourself. It sounds as though it's in the process of being rebilled if your previous invoices aren't visible?

What I don't get is you saying the account is £3k in credit as they had refunded all your payments? If they had refunded the payments the account shouldn't be in credit? IIRC it will automatically refund you if the account goes over £250 in credit but that may have changed?

In terms of working out the balance there are a few ways it can be done, historical consumption analysis, check meter, post exchange analysis etc. As it's only 6 months the 'back billing' rules won't kick in.


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## tmitch45 (Jul 29, 2006)

wayne451 said:


> What's loft insulation got to do with electricity usage or are you on electric heating?
> 
> As someone else has said, Sainsbury's Energy is British Gas. The bills are archived so can still be accessed, albeit not by yourself. It sounds as though it's in the process of being rebilled if your previous invoices aren't visible?
> 
> ...


I don't understand what you are saying or implying. This thread was started by me to find out what position I am in as I don't what to end up loosing out. I'm not after free electricity or to make money from this I just want to be informed so that when this is sorted out I know what is fair and where I stand. All I can tell you is what ACTUALLY happened we looked on the online accound a few weeks back and it showed our account £3K in credit. This allerted us to a problem and hence our call to our provider and then my starting of this thread.


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## wayne451 (Aug 15, 2016)

tmitch45 said:


> I don't understand what you are saying or implying. This thread was started by me to find out what position I am in as I don't what to end up loosing out. I'm not after free electricity or to make money from this I just want to be informed so that when this is sorted out I know what is fair and where I stand. All I can tell you is what ACTUALLY happened we looked on the online accound a few weeks back and it showed our account £3K in credit. This allerted us to a problem and hence our call to our provider and then my starting of this thread.


Woah, hold your horses. I'm not saying or implying anything. There are certain things that don't make sense.

I work for them, albeit on the business/warrants side of things.



tmitch45 said:


> We happened to look at our duel fuel bill yesterday and noticed we were over £3K in credit???? So we phoned up to see what was happening. Sainsburys confirmed we were £3K in credid because they have refunded everything we have paid so far and were working out how much we owe them.


That to me was contradictory. They've either refunded your payments in which case the electric account wouldn't be in credit or they've been continuing to take payments hence building up a credit balance on the account but no refund has taken place? You won't have the money back in your bank and a credit on your electric account.

Nor did it imply or suggest you were trying to get free electric!?! Other people in the thread made references about other people not having to pay etc. That comes under the back billing rules which must be over a year and there are a lot of requirements on the part of the end user.

EDIT: https://www.britishgas.co.uk/content/dam/british-gas/about us/pdfs/code-of-practice-back-billing.pdf

^^^Thats an overview of the back billing process but it wouldn't apply in this case.

Are you on electric heating?


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## tmitch45 (Jul 29, 2006)

wayne451 said:


> Woah, hold your horses. I'm not saying or implying anything. There are certain things that don't make sense.
> 
> I work for them, albeit on the business/warrants side of things.
> 
> ...


Ok apologies for jumping the gun. We are on duel fuel but my mistake mentioning loft insulation???. Whilst we have done that and LED lights and new fridge/freezer I was making the point that I didn't think to look at last years bill would be favorable to us as since then we had made changes to be more fuel efficient.

With regards to the account we pay a monthly direct debit. We noticed that our account showed £3Kcr. We phoned up to clarify what was happening and we were told that as there was a problem they credit all the monthly payments we have made to them onto our account not to our bank account. They said that a person had been assigned to workout what our usage and bill and then once this was sorted they contact us to discuss and take this from the £3K which would either leave us with more to pay worst case or with a small amount of credit. Since then all our billing history has gone from our online account and the £3k is no longer showing on our account and we have had no word from our provider and no way therefore of proving anything from our side.

This is exactly what has happened to date. I use helpful forums like this to get peoples views and help from their experiences as I don't want to end up loosing out or having something happen that shouldn't in short I'm just trying to work out my rights.


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## wayne451 (Aug 15, 2016)

No worries boss. 

I could understand the last 6 months or so vanishing but the entire billing history doesn't make sense to me as there should be no need to rebill the entire history of the account if it's only been 6 months?

Is it an old meter or is it a smart meter that's not polling? 

In terms of your rights they'll do an assessment and let you know what their outcome is. I suspect it'll be based on historical usage. For example, they'll say that you used x number of KWH per day prior to the meter going belly up. From that point you can retort with 'I've changed A, B and C in the property so believe I now use less energy. Since my new meter has gone in I use Y KWH per day' (reference any time period to a corresponding time period of historical bills for comparison purposes, ideally take reads on identical dates as meter reads with elec directly correlate to KWH usage unlike gas!).

You could say I'm biased but they are a reasonable company. If there is some clear logic and thought process to your calculations they'll quite probably go with it.

As I say, there are various different ways it can be calculated but they tend to, in my experience, go with the outcome that most favours you.

Worst case scenario, you don't agree. They'll then issue you with their final position which will open up the opportunity for you to take it to the Ombudsman (you can also do this if your complaint isn't resolved after 8 weeks).

The Ombudsmen conduct an EVIDENCE based investigation and normally use consumption analysis for comparitive purposes. They give their decision which BG (aka Sainsbury's) will go with. Please note that if you decline their outcome or do not respond in time it is no longer binding on BG.

Ombudsmen decision is final, bar the odd exclusion such as other evidence coming to light (must explain why it wasn't available previously etc).

I know the industry and the business processes inside out, although as said I deal with businesses rather than residential (used to deal with residential years back) so if I can be of assistance I'm always happy to help.

P.S. I'd strongly advise avoiding getting any refunds until the billing matter is resolved. I've known examples of people getting their refunds, spunking money on holidays etc (they just head 'refund'), sorting billing issues and it's transpired that they owe a LOT of money. Then you're getting in to the realms of issues with credit files etc. (A normal DD is fine, if the debt is spread beyond a year it requires further 'system' work to seperate the 'debt' from the 'average usage', you then start getting A markers on your credit file which means the balance is part of a formalised payment arrangement! Not good!)


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## tmitch45 (Jul 29, 2006)

Thanks wayne that make ma bit more sense now. We just want it resolved now so we can see where we are i.e. what we owe or what is owed back to us. As you say we need to know this properly so like you say we don't go off thinking that £3k was ours lol.


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## wayne451 (Aug 15, 2016)

tmitch45 said:


> Thanks wayne that make ma bit more sense now. We just want it resolved now so we can see where we are i.e. what we owe or what is owed back to us. As you say we need to know this properly so like you say we don't go off thinking that £3k was ours lol.


No worries.

You got a date for a meter exchange yet?


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## tmitch45 (Jul 29, 2006)

So the new meter was fitted two weeks ago. We were hoping for a smart meter so we could better keep track of our spend but apparently Sainsburys aren't doing them yet so despite it being a British Gas fitter he could only fit a reconditioned unit. We contacted Sainsburys straight away to give them the new reading on installation.


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## wayne451 (Aug 15, 2016)

You should have a label on your new meter stating the former meter details? Something that occasionally falls short is that it's not updated on ECOES (national database of meter details/addresses/suppliers etc for electricity).

TBH, other than not having to let someone read your meter (assuming it's inside) the smart meters are over-rated IMO. The novelty of the usage monitor soon wears off.

From an industry perspective they are a game changer. Those that have previously taken the urine sample will get one hell of a shock. These meters can be changed to pre-payment remotely, they can be disconnected remotely. 

The days of costly warrants (legal right of entry to remove the meter) will drastically reduce. Saves companies a lot of money. No need for engineers/locksmiths/dog handlers etc, quicker disconnection process, removal of the 'safety blanket' so paying gas/electric jumps up the priority list of the abusers. Happy days as far as I'm concerned, especially as I have an absolute shed load of CNA shares, more than some of the directors hold. 😂


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## tmitch45 (Jul 29, 2006)

My in-laws have just had a smart meter fitted and you are right I can see it being a novelty. I was horrified how it changed when the tumble dryer went on!


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## nbray67 (Mar 22, 2012)

wayne451 said:


> You should have a label on your new meter stating the former meter details? Something that occasionally falls short is that it's not updated on ECOES (national database of meter details/addresses/suppliers etc for electricity).
> 
> TBH, other than not having to let someone read your meter (assuming it's inside) the smart meters are over-rated IMO. The novelty of the usage monitor soon wears off.
> 
> ...


Care to share how much 'energy theft' cost's the Utility companies due to the cost's involved with warrants, locksmiths, engineers and dog handlers Wayne?


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