# Respirator or alternative



## deano93tid (May 8, 2013)

I have got an Auto Smart Vortex and am looking to get a respirator, 3M do one for £20 which seems the way to go but I believe the filters only last for a month and to replace this every month seems a bit much when I won't always need to use the Vortex. 

Do you think this is necessary or is there an alternative? I don't really want to compromise on my health so if the above is the case then that's what I'll have to do but just seems a lot of expense for something I won't be using very often.


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## jon-sri (Dec 22, 2012)

I have face masks with a small filter in the nose and a bendy strip which moulds round the nose only about £7 for ten or so and they work with a vortex


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## deano93tid (May 8, 2013)

Are they okay for fumes though? I intend on using it with diluted G101 and I understand it's fumes are very strong and people tend to not really advise it well it's kinda mixed opinions really.

Do you have a link?


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## srod (Dec 31, 2010)

Try one; I use them when shoving 'noxious' chemicals through my tornador and they do a grand job. Cheap enough that you can give 'em a whirl!


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## deano93tid (May 8, 2013)

srod said:


> Try one; I use them when shoving 'noxious' chemicals through my tornador and they do a grand job. Cheap enough that you can give 'em a whirl!


Which are you referring to? Do you have a link?


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## Sue J (Jan 26, 2006)

deano93tid said:


> I have got an Auto Smart Vortex and am looking to get a respirator, 3M do one for £20 which seems the way to go but I believe the filters only last for a month and to replace this every month seems a bit much when I won't always need to use the Vortex.
> 
> Do you think this is necessary or is there an alternative? I don't really want to compromise on my health so if the above is the case then that's what I'll have to do but just seems a lot of expense for something I won't be using very often.


Your Autosmart franchisee will have some on board.


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## deano93tid (May 8, 2013)

I brought one of the ones on board but they seem to be more for dust protection and not from fumes.


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## srod (Dec 31, 2010)

deano93tid said:


> Which are you referring to? Do you have a link?


The ones backstrap was referring to.


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## Sh1ner (May 19, 2012)

Those silly little dust masks with the elastic straps even say on the packet that they offer no respiratory protection. Quite simply they do not work for anything. They might give the illusion but they are useless.
If you use them whilst breathing harmful vapours you need your head examined.
Many of these chemicals as well as being harmful are also cumulative and as the body has no way of removing them they just build up until you become ill.
The proper protection exists so why not read the data sheets (COSHH) find out what is appropriate and use it.
I worked at Sellafield for a while and even after having been fitted for a mask by the relevant people, was then put a chamber which was then partially filled with CS Gas, so there was no faking. My mask leaked and they most definitely knew about it as did I but until it was right you were not cleared to work. I ended up having to shave my beard to get it to seal correctly. It was a very clear lesson in how completely ineffective these cheap DIY masks are.
You might look silly wearing some of this stuff and it might be awkward to use but it may just save you from something worse.


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## andy monty (Dec 29, 2007)

Sh1ner said:


> Those silly little dust masks with the elastic straps even say on the packet that they offer no respiratory protection. Quite simply they do not work for anything. They might give the illusion but they are useless.
> If you use them whilst breathing harmful vapours you need your head examined.
> Many of these chemicals as well as being harmful are also cumulative and as the body has no way of removing them they just build up until you become ill.
> The proper protection exists so why not read the data sheets (COSHH) find out what is appropriate and use it.
> ...


well said... although they now tend to use Bitrex rather than cs :lol:


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## Sue J (Jan 26, 2006)

deano93tid said:


> I brought one of the ones on board but they seem to be more for dust protection and not from fumes.


 They will generally also have the respirator masks on board too.


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## S4Steve (May 9, 2013)

I'm assuming these filters would be ok?

http://www.machinemart.co.uk/shop/product/details/bms4410000901?da=1&TC=SRC-respirator


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## Pigglet (Mar 14, 2013)

I use a sundstrom SR100 and the appropriate filter for anything that requires respiritory protection. The flexibility of the mask material means it seals really well. You get a blanking cover in the kit to allow you to chack it's not leaking.
I don't trust disposable masks.

http://www.salveosafety.co.uk/multi_product.asp?id=3


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## luca (Mar 3, 2012)

S4Steve said:


> I'm assuming these filters would be ok?
> 
> http://www.machinemart.co.uk/shop/product/details/bms4410000901?da=1&TC=SRC-respirator


These are only for dust, if you are using chemicals you have to refer to the table previous linked for the choice of the correct filter.


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## deano93tid (May 8, 2013)

Excellent SR 100 it is, 

Does anyone know the substance in G101?


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## Ultimate (Feb 18, 2007)

Can recommend the 3M 7500 really good fit and various filters available depending on the contaminant


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## andy monty (Dec 29, 2007)

I generally buy ABEK2 P3 filters for most things that covers most of the base's...

eg

http://www.salveosafety.co.uk/product.asp?id=293

in this case the P3 clips on the front

http://www.salveosafety.co.uk/product.asp?id=296

when done i seal the filter tightly in a decent thick poly bag having squeezed as much air out as i can.. to prolong the filters shelf life....

For most domestic nuisance stuff replace when you get the taint of the product coming through..

If its anything nasty such as asbestos dust.. the filter goes into a sealed bag and in the asbestos waste skip.... (mask taken off in the shower once wet)

As for what filter for what job download this: http://solutions.3m.co.uk/3MContent...assetId=1180611010957&blobAttribute=ImageFile

and the chemicals MSDS and do some cross referencing

take autoglym no 50 fall out remover its hazardous ingredient is Oxalic acid...

http://www.autoglyminternational.com/dms/folderview.asp?v06cntr=F#

is showing the use of a A / P rated filter set


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## Rundie (Oct 2, 2007)

Those 'silly little masks' might not offer decent protection against dust etc if they are the cheaper non CE marked ones but the ones that conform to BS EN 149, the better quality ones such as 3M, will give various degrees of protection and shouldn't be dismissed. 
To say they 'give the illusion of protecting' the user is utter rubbish, sorry mate but you don't know what you're talking about, they have their place depending on what you want to protect against.

Try looking at the 3M 6000 series EN 140 masks, excellent quality with a mix of filter options.


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## Sue J (Jan 26, 2006)

A2 / P3 is the recommended standard for G101


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## Sh1ner (May 19, 2012)

Rundie said:


> Those 'silly little masks' might not offer decent protection against dust etc if they are the cheaper non CE marked ones but the ones that conform to BS EN 149, the better quality ones such as 3M, will give various degrees of protection and shouldn't be dismissed.
> To say they 'give the illusion of protecting' the user is utter rubbish, sorry mate but you don't know what you're talking about, they have their place depending on what you want to protect against.
> 
> Try looking at the 3M 6000 series EN 140 masks, excellent quality with a mix of filter options.


BS EN 149 relates to particulate masks. BS EN 14387 the updated BS EN 141 is the standard you require? 
If you had bothered to read my post you would have seen the folowing " The proper protection exists so why not read the data sheets (COSHH) find out what is appropriate and use it."
Thank you for your words of wisdom but what did you think I was refering to in my initial post. The o/p seemed to think that £20 or so + filters for a 3M mask that may not be used that often was expensive and was being given advice that masks at 70p each were acceptable. It is my experience and understanding that they are totally inapropriate for the role suggested. If you think they are then you are the one talking "utter rubbish".


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## james vti-s (Aug 9, 2011)

Sh1ner said:


> It was a very clear lesson in how completely ineffective these cheap DIY masks are.
> You might look silly wearing some of this stuff and it might be awkward to use but it may just save you from something worse.


Thanks :thumb:


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## james vti-s (Aug 9, 2011)

Pigglet said:


> http://www.salveosafety.co.uk/multi_product.asp?id=3


expensive BUT you cant price health, thanks for the link


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## Alex L (Oct 25, 2005)

Sh1ner said:


> stuff


And even the respirator ones can be rubbish, we use a wood sealer at work and even after trialing a few respirator type masks you could still get a strong wiff of the fumes.



Rundie said:


> Those 'silly little masks' might not offer decent protection against dust etc if they are the cheaper non CE marked ones but the ones that conform to BS EN 149, the better quality ones such as 3M, will give various degrees of protection and shouldn't be dismissed.
> To say they 'give the illusion of protecting' the user is utter rubbish, sorry mate but you don't know what you're talking about, they have their place depending on what you want to protect against.
> 
> Try looking at the 3M 6000 series EN 140 masks, excellent quality with a mix of filter options.


But they offer absolutely no protection against fumes, even against dust they're not much cop and yes I use the expensive 3M masks at work and the MDF dust quite happily gets through as my yellowy/brown snot can testify.

They do have their place and are better than pulling your t-shirt over your nose or holding your breath.


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## andy monty (Dec 29, 2007)

Alex L said:


> And even the respirator ones can be rubbish, we use a wood sealer at work and even after trialing a few respirator type masks you could still get a strong wiff of the fumes.
> 
> But they offer absolutely no protection against fumes, even against dust they're not much cop and yes I use the expensive 3M masks at work and the MDF dust quite happily gets through as my yellowy/brown snot can testify.
> 
> They do have their place and are better than pulling your t-shirt over your nose or holding your breath.


Has work had a face fit test done on you? very often brand x will not seal but brand y will, it's not always more expensive = better l


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## Rundie (Oct 2, 2007)

If you read my post I'm not saying EN149's are any good for fumes/organic vapours but they do have their place and a good quality well fitted one will offer decent protection against dust particles, P3's offering the best level of protection, many just use any old mask and expect the same protection from a P1 mask.
As mentioned a face fit test should be done prior to use, find a mask that fits properly and adjust it well, nose band and strap adjustments. Also being clean shaven will help, these disposable masks are all tested on clean shaven test subjects and any facial growth will create a leak path as it will on most respiratory equipment.

My reply was aimed at the comment 
'_Those silly little dust masks with the elastic straps even say on the packet that they offer no respiratory protection. Quite simply they do not work for anything. They might give the illusion but they are useless._' 
This comment might put people off using any type of disposable dust mask when many CE marked EN149's are very capable of giving some good respiratory protection to the user.

Still, thanks for the advice fellas :thumb: 
After all what the hell do I know, I'm only a Senior Respiratory Test Engineer for British Standards :lol:
Seriously though, it's good to hear peoples views on different products and how good or bad they find them.

BTW, BS EN 140 I refer to relates to the mask itself not the filters, as I said a range of filters is available and the mask and the filters aren't too pricey for what they are.


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## Jasoon (Jun 23, 2006)

you want a Avon N10 Full Face Mask

http://romarworkwear.com/catalog2co...ubgroup1=RB&subgroup2=AU&style=001&resultspp=

we use them at work and there well made and long lasting...


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## Rundie (Oct 2, 2007)

I tested this one a little while ago........
http://www.avon-protection.com/law enforcement/fm53.htm

Nice bit of kit but maybe a bit OTT for what he's looking for :thumb:


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## andy monty (Dec 29, 2007)

Rundie said:


> If you read my post I'm not saying EN149's are any good for fumes/organic vapours but they do have their place and a good quality well fitted one will offer decent protection against dust particles, P3's offering the best level of protection, many just use any old mask and expect the same protection from a P1 mask.
> As mentioned a face fit test should be done prior to use, find a mask that fits properly and adjust it well, nose band and strap adjustments. Also being clean shaven will help, these disposable masks are all tested on clean shaven test subjects and any facial growth will create a leak path as it will on most respiratory equipment.
> 
> My reply was aimed at the comment
> ...


I didn't get chance to edit the quote as i was at work on my little mobile and dont have the forum app 



> I use the expensive 3M masks at work and the MDF dust quite happily gets through as my yellowy/brown snot can testify.


was the bit i was aiming it at... :thumb:

i still dont think you can beat a full face mask personally i have the sr200










Should have seen the woman at the local tip when i went to dump some asbestos in their "special skip..."

having filled in the paperwork out she pulled a p2 mask out of a box having said she had to go on a course only to put the bloody mask on upside down with the tin nasil strip under her chin :wall:


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## Rundie (Oct 2, 2007)

If I was working alot with MDF I'd use a full face mask as above or a positive pressure system like a powered air or supplied (compressed) air type. The range of equipment available is growing all the time and you'll be amazed at some of the new gear we get in for testing that's not on the market yet. 
If it's not stopping dust or fumes then you or the company need to look for something more suitable, it's available you just need to find the right product.


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## james vti-s (Aug 9, 2011)

i remember when i was working a month or two back i was wearing no mask as i had just started boy did i learn my lesson

for a month i was ****ed up, my sinus and i couldn't stop sneezing 

i have to get a proper mask


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## Sh1ner (May 19, 2012)

Rundie said:


> My reply was aimed at the comment
> '_Those silly little dust masks with the elastic straps even say on the packet that they offer no respiratory protection. Quite simply they do not work for anything. They might give the illusion but they are useless._'
> This comment might put people off using any type of disposable dust mask when many CE marked EN149's are very capable of giving some good respiratory protection to the user.


What sort of crusade are you on? "Utter rubbish". The recommendation had been to use masks that offer no respiratory protection against harmful vapours. In fact masks that offer little or no protection against anything. The preceding posts were not about about dust, the o/p was clearly concerned about vapours. Is it not also true that chemicals can readily be absorbed by exposed tissue, in which case a part face mask may also be inappropriate in this situation when you are suggesting it is?
Please go and condescend to someone else. Argue your point by all means but don't use me as your whipping boy.
Your knowledge could clearly be very valuable but your method of transposing one situation to another just leaves me wanting an ignore button.
No wonder the 3m site is more informative than BSI.
Curious really as we clearly both want people to breathe better air and remain healthy.


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## Rundie (Oct 2, 2007)

I felt you had generalised that all EN149 type masks had no value and corrected that, that's all. Not relating it to the earlier posts just wanted to make it clear they do offer some protection and what appeared to be a blanket statement was wrong IMO .
To get something else straight, BSI tests to various standards so critiscising the lack of end user info on their site is way off the mark, they don't offer final products as 3M do and as such don't offer product or fitting advice, I will however agree that the 3M site and advice is second to none.
If we're talking about chemicals being absorbed by the skin then we go beyond the standards mentioned, maybe a full CBRN suit but I doubt the COSHH sheet refers to using one of these either plus it would be a bugger to move around in a car with one on  
Not willing to get into a 'mines bigger than yours' spat, as you say it's about giving accurate advice and mine is based on my experience of testing this type of product.


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## srod (Dec 31, 2010)

All I know is that when I use a certain chemical through my tornador when doing an interior without a face mask, I sometimes get a rather nasty sensation in the back of my throat. When using a paper mask, albeit a 'decent' mask, I get no such unpleasantness.

That is good enough for me since such exposure is very limited anyhow.


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## andy monty (Dec 29, 2007)

srod said:


> All I know is that when I use a certain chemical through my tornador when doing an interior without a face mask, I sometimes get a rather nasty sensation in the back of my throat. When using a paper mask, albeit a 'decent' mask, I get no such unpleasantness.
> 
> That is good enough for me since such exposure is very limited anyhow.


it depends what your using if your using something irritant or corrosive as a miscible droplet which has a low volatility (eg high boiling temperature before it vaporizes a standard p2 sl or p3 sl should be antiquate although P3 is 2x the protection level over p2..

(the p defines particulate and the number shows protection value most chemicals have a OEL (occupational exposure limit) which in a work place is / should be monitored by a dosimeter attached to employees over their shift and the exposure calculated,....

1 = 4x oel
2 = 10x oel
3= 20x oel

It does get really complicated when you start working out exposure

Not helped by items like these which generate confusion to the average DIYer

http://www.arco.co.uk/products/114200/79320/3M+9928+Valved+Premium+Welding+Fume+Respirator

its a glorified dust mask with a thin carbon layer which reduces some fumes but offers neglegable protection against vapours hence it says:

"
Maximum use concentration: Particulates: 10 x WEL*, up to 10 x WEL* for ozone and* relief from nuisance levels of organic vapours (below WEL*)*.

*Workplace Exposure Limit. "

Problem is inside a car concentration/exposure can be very high due to it been a confined space


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## andy monty (Dec 29, 2007)

Rundie said:


> maybe a full CBRN suit


God the neighbors of most members think we are a strange breed wonder what the hell they would think if we started doing the car dressed like a spaceman,..,










You wally you didn't put the grit guard in!


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## Rundie (Oct 2, 2007)

LOL ^^ Classic :thumb:


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## james vti-s (Aug 9, 2011)

:lol:










Is that a cap full? ....... it looks like a cap full


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## Alex L (Oct 25, 2005)

andy monty said:


> Has work had a face fit test done on you? very often brand x will not seal but brand y will, it's not always more expensive = better l


@ Rundie too :thumb:

Not on the cheap ( expensive 3M) disposable ones, but on the filtered one we have. I always use it for MDF but for the sealer we use it's no use. But I always use that next to the 4m x 6m door, so ventilation isn't a problem lol


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## Rundie (Oct 2, 2007)

Alex L said:


> @ Rundie too :thumb:
> 
> Not on the cheap ( expensive 3M) disposable ones, but on the filtered one we have. I always use it for MDF but for the sealer we use it's no use. But I always use that next to the 4m x 6m door, so ventilation isn't a problem lol


Plenty of respiratory protection out there, maybe your company needs to look at something more suitable if vapours are still an issue.


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## luca (Mar 3, 2012)

andy monty said:


> I generally buy ABEK2 P3 filters for most things that covers most of the base's...


Also a 3M 4279 is a valid solution:

http://catalogue.3m.eu/it_IT/IT-OHE...ne~nocode/Respiratore_senza_manutenzione~4279

the only think is that this mask hasn't replacebles filters, so when them are "full" (you can feel the smell of chemicals) you have to replace all the mask. So, if you use it a lot it will be better a mask with replaceble filters, otherwise also the 4000 serie has a great value.


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## Rundie (Oct 2, 2007)

luca said:


> Also a 3M 4279 is a valid solution:
> 
> http://catalogue.3m.eu/it_IT/IT-OHE...ne~nocode/Respiratore_senza_manutenzione~4279
> 
> the only think is that this mask hasn't replacebles filters, so when them are "full" (you can feel the smell of chemicals) you have to replace all the mask. So, if you use it a lot it will be better a mask with replaceble filters, otherwise also the 4000 serie has a great value.


I've used the 4279 when using chemicals that give off massive vapours, great mask. Again, depends what you want and how often you will use it and if it protects against what you are working with.


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## deano93tid (May 8, 2013)

I used the vortex over the weekend with a standard dust mask with valet pro APC which doesn't carry warning etc so believe to be relatively harmless and I couldn't even smell the strong scent it gives off through the mask but of course for stronger harmful products I'm going to buy a respirator.


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