# ..Wet Sanding Vs Dry Sanding..



## dooka (Aug 1, 2006)

Hi all..

Not sure if this is in the right section, Mods please move if it isnt..

I think there has been a little confusion of late over wet and dry sanding..

So thought it best right a little review of what I mean, and try to clear up some of this confusion..

It all start when I responded to a thread by Kelly of KDS, and people seemed to think that I meant sanding down filler..

I am an old school panel beater, so totally agree with Kelly when it comes to feel and sound, but do enjoy using the dry sanding route..

SORRY FOR THE QUALITY OF THE PICTURES, USED MY PHONES CAMERA..

Here are some pics of the offending discs in discussion.








3M 260l 1500 discs, i think equivalent to 2000 2500 grit W&D..









The W&D paper used..









The two together..









And again, but W&D in lubed water..









The sacrificial door for this presentation..









Half dry sanded..









Half wiped down, to show the type of finish you can expect..









The disc after sanding..









Ready for wet sanding..









During Wet Sanding..









Half of wet sanded area wiped down, to show finish..









The two finishes together..




























Now for some quick polishing, using Menz 302 and Megs 105, just was interested seeing them both perform side by side..









The menz on Megs Red cutting pad..









Menz spead and ready to be worked..









The Menz being worked..









The Menz worked..









Another Megs pad with Megs #105 ready to go..









Megs #105 spread and ready to be worked..









Megs #105 being worked..

Now for some Menz 85RD









85RD being worked..


















Almost finished..

Now for some finished results..

























Once again, sorry for the quality of pics, used my camera phone..

This is only a quick demo, so finished aren't exact, but give you an idea..

The dry sanding it a little hard to polish with these pads, so you can/could either refine with W&D or use a higher grit disc..

I hope this helps to clear things up slightly..


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## PJS (Aug 18, 2007)

Why would the 1500 be the equivalent of 2000-2500?
1500 grit is 1500 grit, no matter which way you slice it.

I'm not surprised you had a bit more effort to correct that side of the masking tape, since you had deeper scores to remove with the polish.
I'm also not sure I agree that Kelly does dry sanding - many that have the compressor and air-powered palm sander, will use wet, unless attached to a vacuum, and this will be entirely dependent upon what the user feels most comfortable with, or what investment they or the company have made in the line of tools for the typical jobs they encounter/undertake.

If anything, the dry sanding side (because of the action of the DA) looks a more consistent flatting, unlike the (by hand) wet side.

End result looks well.


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## rapidseven (Apr 26, 2007)

wet sanding vs dry sanding is really only applicable as to which is when your painting, not buffing. There's no difference in the final finish, as the buffer see's to that.

I would dry sand every time if I could, as there's less mess.

Simple as that really.


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## Auto Finesse (Jan 10, 2007)

Why dont any of your finished pics have the light on the panel  

Dry sanding is a good way to bash back alot of OP fast (poor respray), but should and would always need refining down further prior to polishing via wet sanding.

You will have far more tails left from dry sanding, than you would wet, as you carry the clear coat (all that white dust you see) over the panel with the pad, not that that cant/dont happen with wet but atleast you have the water to suspend it in. 

End result is wet sanding will always be a more refined finish, if carried out like for like.

Some of these techniques are more paint shop orientated and better suited to refinished paint rather than factory.

I also see very little point in full wet sands unless is really the only way to fix a problem, most i see on here is just to make pretty pictures. when to be quite honest its a risk and waist of time altogether.


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## Paintguy (Oct 31, 2005)

This discussion is also being carried out here PJS, starting at about post #23.


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## dooka (Aug 1, 2006)

You all seem to be missing the point..

I don't say Kelly dry sanded, I said I mentioned it in one of his threads, and all seem to think I was talking about sanding filler etc..

No pics of after panels as I wasn't trying to show a finish, just a process..

Maybe if you all re-read, you might get the point I was trying to show..

yes 1500 is 1500, just I'm sure I heard someone mention that these work out fine than the equivalent grit on wet and dry, hence why I mentioned it..

Sorry for trying to show you all what I meant..


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## dooka (Aug 1, 2006)

Paintguy said:


> This discussion is also being carried out here PJS, starting at about post #23.


Thank you, I guess you understood what I was talking about then..


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## KennyC (Aug 11, 2008)

Did you get any PTG readings?


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## dooka (Aug 1, 2006)

KennyC said:


> Did you get any PTG readings?


What is the use, if I don't know how thick the clear coat is..

I have mentioned this a lot, only the ones that read the thickness of layers is good for this type of thing..


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## KennyC (Aug 11, 2008)

qstix said:


> What is the use, if I don't know how thick the clear coat is..
> 
> I have mentioned this a lot, only the ones that read the thickness of layers is good for this type of thing..


That's true but it will let us know how much you had to remove with each method.


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## Mirror Finish Details (Aug 21, 2008)

qstix said:


> You all seem to be missing the point..
> 
> I don't say Kelly dry sanded, I said I mentioned it in one of his threads, and all seem to think I was talking about sanding filler etc..
> 
> ...


I found it interesting, may try my self on a scrap penel.


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## Auto Finesse (Jan 10, 2007)

qstix said:


> You all seem to be missing the point..
> 
> I don't say Kelly dry sanded, I said I mentioned it in one of his threads, and all seem to think I was talking about sanding filler etc..
> 
> ...


I understand what your trying to show, but you seem to be missing a big point with detailing, its all about the finish.

Also you mention PTGs that can read individual layers, there are NO PTGs that can give accurate split layer readings, we have and use some of the best on the market and have done for many years and i know for one split layer readings are never very accurate, there handy to have but by no means a guarantee.

Wet sanding is far more refined, personally i dont feel dry sanding has a place in detailing unless in an extreme scenario.

We tried this at a meet of ours a year or two ago,

I always come across negative on any thing regarding sanding of any type, im not i just feel its becoming the "thing to do" rather than what it should be, a last resort, if you dont need to sand then dont IMO, if you can achieve the desired result via polishing then your better off to do it this way, as you have far more control and the removal rate is much more manageable.


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## -Kev- (Oct 30, 2007)

as James said - why no pics with a light source on door after polishing?..


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## rapidseven (Apr 26, 2007)

jesus christ guys, the op has just demonstrated wet and dry sanding on a SCRAP door, he's not telling anyone whats right and wrong, what to do and when, just a comparison between the two.

Rather than slag him, give a bit of credit.


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## rapidseven (Apr 26, 2007)

So i'll give credit where its due - well done OP, you've done in 5 minutes what would take 90% of the forum several hours fannying around with a 1000 different polishes and pads.


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## Paintguy (Oct 31, 2005)

qstix said:


> Thank you, I guess you understood what I was talking about then..


Very much so. And thanks for posting up your pics to clear things up for others 

I have to agree with James' post though, I think this kind of dry sanding by DA would be much more appropriate on a painters forum than a detailing one. Removal rates using a 1500 disc on a sander can be exceptional, and whilst that's fine for someone like me that knows exactly how much clear has been put on (since I did it myself), it isn't something I'd like to risk on an unknown surface, where a more gently gently approach may be more appropriate.


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## Kelly @ KDS (Aug 4, 2008)

qstix said:


> Hi all..
> 
> Not sure if this is in the right section, Mods please move if it isnt..
> 
> ...


What have i done :lol:

From the pictures above you have not fully wet sanded the orange peel down or evenly either .

The wet sand by hand on the right has been done all wrong which i have seen on the studio section once or twice before , you have wet sanded in the wrong direction on the panel and used your finger tips more than the flat of your hand , which clearly shown on the pictures with lines going from top to bottom on the door . 
Use i thin flexable flatting block or the the plam/flat of your hand or even hold your hand at an angle when sanding in straight lines taking care to overlap evenly

And if i want to get picky your da sanding has areas which still show a slight shine and orange peel .

This really shows not alot and could confuse people even more so 

I do like your idea and understand you are trying to help members understand , but it will end in tears for members thinking i going to give that a bash myself .

This is an extreme process when it comes to detailing end of .

In this picture and i might add before i have washed the residue of from wet sanding ,

You can see the wet sanding is very even and the bonnet has a reflection all ready before any type of compound / polish / wax has been near it .

This is why it takes days of carefull wet sanding to produce the most uniform flat finish possilbe , which inturns leaves very little machine correction and no scoring left from wet sanding

Here is a X5 i have wet sanded due to orange peel ,

you can see the wet sanding is far more even and and after one pass with 3M extra fine cut this is the end result .










this is after machine correction on the door using 3m extra fine cut and wiped down with slow solvent to remove any oils from machine correction .



















Kelly

www.kdsdetailing.co.uk


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## rapidseven (Apr 26, 2007)

What a load of BS - wet sanding in the WRONG direction and taking DAYS to wet sand ?

Are you having a laugh mate ?

Ooooh, look - an opportunity to show off my own work and trample on someone elses.

This forum is soooo bloody annoying sometimes.


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## Auto Finesse (Jan 10, 2007)

rapidseven said:


> So i'll give credit where its due - well done OP, you've done in 5 minutes what would take 90% of the forum several hours fannying around with a 1000 different polishes and pads.


Your obviously an expert (an armchair one at least) and know every thing about nothing

For one he has not achieved anything by the looks of it, the Orange peel effect is still present, he has not showen the final finish in direct light (as he has the befores)

Also its all well and good shwing a proses but you have to show the proses your outlining is capable of achieving the desiered end result, im pretty certain that the dry sanded side would still have plenty of tails in due to not being fully refined.

For what its worth, i could have achieved what was achieved there in around 5 mins with a wool pad and it would have removed alot less, induced alot less damage to the finish (pig tails and ridges) and i would have had far more control over the removal rate by doing so.

Dont get me wrong, sanding has a place in detailing, but as a last resort, top remove deep scratches and or, Orange peel, and even then id say its best left to an expert.


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## Kelly @ KDS (Aug 4, 2008)

james b said:


> Why dont any of your finished pics have the light on the panel
> 
> Dry sanding is a good way to bash back alot of OP fast (poor respray), but should and would always need refining down further prior to polishing via wet sanding.
> 
> ...


Hi James :wave:

I have always read your comments when i notice you have posted and respect for what you say and up until now agreed with what you have said just like above , 
Apart for the last comment 

A massive improvment in all areas of the paints appearance can be achieved when hand working a vehicles paint , just like Aston martin , show cars and heavily orange peeled cars from the factory .

Tell hot rod builders and show cars who have had thousands of pounds of house of colour paint and air brushed art work all over their cars , that when the paint shop finishes the car by wet sanding the top coat to give the best finish "its a waist of time".

There is a place for everything really , you may as well say machine correction is risky (which it can be to the untrained) and i waist of time then , and no doubt alot of the public do as they dont get detailing at all .

You are more than welcome to come and see my car or a customers car if you think its just pretty pictures 

Kelly


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## rapidseven (Apr 26, 2007)

james b said:


> Your obviously an expert (an armchair one at least) and know every thing about nothing
> 
> For one he has not achieved anything by the looks of it, the Orange peel effect is still present, he has not showen the final finish in direct light (as he has the befores)
> 
> ...


I never mentioned anything about the quality of the OP's work, nor weather its right or wrong. Im defending him because he's actually showing people a comparison.

As for being an " expert ", armchair or not. I couldnt give a monkeys ball sack what you think, nor am I going to justify myself, because I don't need to, nor do I want to in a forum of " experts ".

All im saying, is a least give the OP a break ffs.


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## Kelly @ KDS (Aug 4, 2008)

james b said:


> Your obviously an expert (an armchair one at least) and know every thing about nothing
> 
> For one he has not achieved anything by the looks of it, the Orange peel effect is still present, he has not showen the final finish in direct light (as he has the befores)
> 
> ...


What he said above is spot on :lol:

Even thou i slightly disagreed on the last post 

All i am trying to do is warn members that is not as straight forward as it seems and praised him for having a go at helping and showing members .

I have replied to the post due the the hugh number of emails and requests for wet sand details prices without even knowing the vehcile , let alone inspecting the car and paint depth .

I had a customer with 2 of his friends one saturday for 6 HOURS explaining all about wet sand and inspecting their cars of which none of them would of gained much for the process due to colour and that the paint depth was boarderline too . 
Now the full wet sand detail was too expensive for him in one go and it did not matter how much i tried to explain his yellow e36 M3 would never look like my car . 
He asked to book in for detail now and six months later for the wet sand to spread the cost , so i guessed i had wasted 6 hours of my time as somehow he though the wet sand came after machine correction and lsp 

I decided from then on not to push the wet sand details at all , and only with the correct conditions on the car , and a customer that fully understands the process and after care .

I spend alot of time explaining to each customer why they can not have a wet sand detail , that its sometimes not worth the hastle .

Kelly


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## Auto Finesse (Jan 10, 2007)

The thing is, unless a car is suffering from a bad case of orange peel and the owner simply cant stand it, i dont really see the point in the time effort, risk and cost involved (and i offer full wet sand details) there is risk as you know and it far exceeds the risk involved in polishing, as with polishing at least you can stop if needs be, with sanding you have no choice but to remove more via polishing to refine the finish.

I feel if the paint is a good (or an acceptable) flat finish, then what is the advantage of fully sanding the paint work, unnecessary risk.

Im not talking about, custom finishes, im talking factory paint. i come from a body shop back ground, id always flat and polish a gun finish, but unless we are talking about the likes of some new BMWs, not every cars finish would see enough benifit to warrant it IMO

Kelly i dont want to come see your car, cos that would mean id have to park my van near it and that would clearly put your car to shame  LOL

I often use sanding methods on vehicles, but usually in isolated areas, such as repainted areas to match them up, or to remove deeper scratches that are beyond reasonable for polishing work.

Im not saying its wrong, im just saying its getting far to "in" for all the wrong reasons, and not as it should.


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## -Kev- (Oct 30, 2007)

rapidseven said:


> What a load of BS - wet sanding in the WRONG direction and taking DAYS to wet sand ?
> 
> Are you having a laugh mate ?
> 
> ...


reel your neck in for god shake! :wall:


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## rapidseven (Apr 26, 2007)

Me wind my neck in :lol:


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## Paintguy (Oct 31, 2005)

There's a place for everything I reckon, including sanding (wet or dry ), but as far as detailing goes it should be absolutely the last resort for defect removal. It's unlikely that any experienced detailer, either pro or enthusiast, would jump straight in with their most aggressive polishing combination, but rather work up towards it until the required level of correction can be achieved. I think of sanding as one extra (and rather large) step up in this scale. Only after all other options have been exhausted should you even consider it, and even than you need to think long and hard about whether to make such a leap, or simply accept the fact that the defect will never fully corrected, and go for disguising it instead.

A pre-arranged wet sand of a vehicle to remove orange peel is a different matter though I think. One knows nothing else will do the job as effectively, but the risk is calculated beforehand based on the age, condition, and film depth of the topcoat.


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## -Kev- (Oct 30, 2007)

rapidseven said:


> Me wind my neck in :lol:


yep - having a go at who know what they are talking about, unlike you
Kelly obviously knows his onions so why say he's talking BS?


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## Kelly @ KDS (Aug 4, 2008)

james b said:


> The thing is, unless a car is suffering from a bad case of orange peel and the owner simply cant stand it, i dont really see the point in the time effort, risk and cost involved (and i offer full wet sand details) there is risk as you know and it far exceeds the risk involved in polishing, as with polishing at least you can stop if needs be, with sanding you have no choice but to remove more via polishing to refine the finish.
> 
> I feel if the paint is a good (or an acceptable) flat finish, then what is the advantage of fully sanding the paint work, unnecessary risk.
> 
> ...


James , after i posted to your reply i read it again and sort of see you was saying waste of time on some of the factory finishes mate , and i am with you on that :thumb:
Thats why i have to say to customers the truth and sometimes say it wont be worth it .

The only factory paint wet sand details have been BMW's for at least the last 2 years , due to the poor finishes and most i have inspected have had the scope to do so , but not all mind you , had a brand new M3 (which i will post) that was low on paint so only correction :buffer:

The other wet sand details have been on re-paints or part re-paints (for matching factory and new finish together).

Kelly


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## Kelly @ KDS (Aug 4, 2008)

rapidseven said:


> What a load of BS - wet sanding in the WRONG direction and taking DAYS to wet sand ?
> 
> Are you having a laugh mate ?
> 
> ...


Annoying because its full of really good ideas and information from pro,s and hooby guys ????

When do you want to come to my workshop and show me the correct way to wet sand ???

My door is always open to public and if you are going to show me a way of saving time and money with regards to wet sanding then i am all for it .
Means i can make more money and go home early 

Not showing off at all matey , just trying to show the difference when done correctly and also always add i bit of information to each and every picture i post , which will help open minded members who hopefully look at it as guidance and are willing to have ago . :thumb:

Keep your eyes open in the studio section for more "showing off" sorry post from me 

Kelly


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## rapidseven (Apr 26, 2007)

-Kev- said:


> yep - having a go at who know what they are talking about, unlike you
> Kelly obviously knows his onions so why say he's talking BS?


Good man :thumb:


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## -Kev- (Oct 30, 2007)

rapidseven said:


> Good man :thumb:


very funny


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## Auto Finesse (Jan 10, 2007)

This is why i feel its not a good thing to promote such techniques http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=141724 look at the OP and the first few replys,

By all means sand your car, its yours, but dont winge on here when it all goes wrong, i feel sanding is a bit more of an advanced skill, and should only be considered by some one who has a good understanding of paint types and there make up.


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## dooka (Aug 1, 2006)

Guys..

Stop all your bickering..

I wasn't trying to show a finish, or try and get all the orange peel off the door, it wasn't even my intention, hence why no after shots..

God, what did you all do before this forum came about, or before modern techniques, materials and equipment became available..

I was merely trying to show what I meant by dry sanding, as someone thought I was using say 320 grit to rub down some filler..

I left the motor trade over 10 years ago, so some of my techniques and examples may be old hat now, and before you all jump on you almighty big band wagon, i was never taught about sanding direction..

I wasn't trying to show anyone how to sand, just an example of the two..

Sorry if it was all so so wrong..

I will leave you all to carry on with your above my station forum..

Thanks to those of you who actually read and understood what I was trying to do, and for defending me, against a crime that wasn't committed..

ta ta..


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## Jason2002 (Jan 20, 2009)

I totally agree James, this sort of work should be left to someone with plenty of knowledge in this area, that is why I use Kelly as KDS. I have been a customer/friend of his for over 10 years now. Before I knew Kelly I would always see a Lancia Delta Integrale driving round, and I used to think “what a car”, the paint finish was like glass (bright red) and I thought I want my car looking like that ( I didn’t know Kelly at this point). It wasn’t until I was talking to my best mate from school about having my car serviced and he told me about a garage in Gillingham. So of I went to this garage and there it was, this Lancia Delta Integrale. He introduced me to his mate (Kelly, they worked together). Kelly used to work at his dads garage in his spare time. I got speaking to him about his Lancia and told him I have never seen anything like it. After about 5 years of him servicing mine and my families cars I bought an Audi A8 and I wanted to turn it into an S8, I spoke to Kelly and he said it would be a shed load of work but he could do it. I bought all the parts and he fitted them for me, I decided to have car repainted for perfect colour matched, and this was when I said to him I want it to look like his old Lancia Delta and M3 (which he recently wet sanded). After seeing the finished results of the Audi, I would never question his work. I now just take my cars to him and he advises me the way to do and I let him work his magic. I have had 3 cars wetsanded by Kelly (2 were re-painted and 1 was BMW factory finish), not to look good in pictures but to look absolutely stunning in the metal. I can assure Kelly knows his stuff, whatever I have wanted done to my cars he always says ‘not a problem’. As for his M3, well I have never seen another car like it – truely unbelievable :doublesho, pictures do not do it justice. I have never had any problems with the cars I have had wetsanded, they get washed every week and one a year they go back to Kelly to be machine polished to keep that superior finish. I sold the Audi a couple of years ago,the new owner could not believe the paint finish. The next car I buy - you guessed it, will being going down to KDS to be wet sanded. :thumb:


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## PJS (Aug 18, 2007)

qstix said:


> I don't say Kelly dry sanded, I said I mentioned it in one of his threads, and all seem to think I was talking about sanding filler etc..
> 
> yes 1500 is 1500, just I'm sure I heard someone mention that these work out fine than the equivalent grit on wet and dry, hence why I mentioned it..


I've re-read that thread a couple of times, and I'm sorry to say, but I don't see one reference to sanding body filler in it. 
That aside, your understanding of grit grades is lacking, even if via an overheard conversation or told to you by someone you accept as being more knowledgeable, since grit grade is standardised for fairly obvious reasons!
Can you imagine the state of confusion if one brand's 1200 grit was another's 2000?
Grit only differs in abrasive size (hence the grades), and the type of abrasive used, along with binder to the paper/pad.
Granted along with tolerances employed, one brand's 1200 might be 1300 in absolute terms, but given there's no small increments used (for logistical and financial reasons alone) then it's fair to say 1200 is 1200, is 1200, irrespective of the brand name.

In much the same way as car manufacturers put the RON on the inside of the fuel flap, rather than UL or SUL - it's the RON that the ECU has been mapped with/for, not an arbitrary UL or SUL fuel from the nearest petrol station.
Not the best example, I know, but should illustrate the point I was making.


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## Brazo (Oct 27, 2005)

Regardless of who thinks they are right and who might be wrong a number of the posts appeared aggressive last night so please people if you can't debate/discuss nicely then don't do it all!


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## Paintguy (Oct 31, 2005)

*PJS* - I agree with what you're saying about abrasive grit sizes, the only possible spanner in the works is the fact that there are two major industry standards in use. The Americans tend to use the CAMI scale, whereas Europe mainly uses an ISO standard, designated by a "P" in front of the grit number, so the US 1500 grade would be roughly equivalent to our P2500 or P3000, and P1500 is roughly their 800. I know it's being a bit fussy, but I just wanted to point it out in case that was the cause of the misunderstanding here


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## PJS (Aug 18, 2007)

Ah, now that makes more sense to the OP's remark - but I'm not sure if there's much US grit imported, possibly for this very reason.
I know 3M UK's foam polishing pads are highly regarded across the pond, suggesting they're different from what 3M US provide, but I'm not aware of which type discs 3M UK offers - ISO ref or CAMI imported from the US parent.


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## Paintguy (Oct 31, 2005)

As I say, might not really be relevant, but it might be where the confusion arose from. I know the guys I chat to on some US painting forums are moving more and more to 'P' grades, but it definitely causes confusion over there when certain grit sizes are recommended for certain jobs. I've only ever seen 3M 260L discs (like the ones in the OP) in the 'P' grades.


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## Clark3y (Jan 7, 2010)

I'm pretty darn sure there is a difference between the abrasiveness of wet and dry abrasives of the same grade. I was into painting for a while and that is one of the things I learned along the way.

Just to prove I'm not talking nonsense, take a look at this data sheet.
http://www.u-pol.com/datasheets/tds/S2020-TDS-EN.pdf
Notice how it tells you to use different grades for wet or dry, and the dry abrasive is always coarser than the wet. You will find similar on most data sheets, I know it's not really relevant to this topic at all, but it's just to make a point.


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