# DI Vessel size decision



## MrMatt (Apr 15, 2011)

Evening chaps, I know that aspect ratio is worth a lot in choosing a DI vessel but I can't quite figure out which size I should buy v the cost of the unit. What would you guys do:

6" x 18" (1:3) 7L vessel with 10L (1.4 vessel fill ups) MB-115 resin for £95 ~580L of usable water
6" x 18" (1:3) 7L vessel with 25L (3.6 vessel fill ups) MB-115 resin for £129 ~1490L of usable water
6" x 35" (1:5.8) 14L vessel with 25L (1.8 vessel fill ups) MB-115 resin for £155 ~1990L of usable water

I'm kind of being drawn to the latter one, is that a bit excessive for washing two cars twice a month each or shall I just go for it?


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## garycha (Mar 29, 2012)

I have had the 7L item since 2011 and wash 3 cars. I wish I'd got the larger item...


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## MrMatt (Apr 15, 2011)

Thanks Gary

How often are you changing the resin?


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## fatdazza (Dec 29, 2010)

Things to consider:

How hard is your water and how often you wash - will determine how frequently you need to change the resin. Hard water, lots of use then leads you to the larger vessel


Will you want to move the vessel regularly? - 14 litre vessel starts to get heavy.

A lot talked about aspect ratio, but providing you don't go for a really dumpy and give the vessel a roll every so often it does not make that much difference (the well known "test" often quoted by a certain trader about aspect ratio was conducted without rolling or mixing the resin up, it was just a continuous flow until "breakthrough" started to occur).

A set volume of resin will remove a set amount of dissolved solids (providing it continues to be well mixed and has good contact with the water)


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## garycha (Mar 29, 2012)

MrMatt said:


> Thanks Gary
> 
> How often are you changing the resin?


I have the Raceglaze 7L item and change the resin about 2-3 times a year. I am in Bristol with hard water, but in winter I use DI only for rinsing and Sheeting drying, then summer I use it throughout wash.

I don't have a ppm meter but can sort of tell when resin is degrading by the way it behaves on ceramic coatings.

If you buy tuliosn resin in 25 kg bags, it is far more economical than the racegalze 7kg bags. Changing can be messy, so I got a funnel, and first time change, it was hard work to undo the vessel. So I grease the thread now and it's easy.

I also got wall bracket to stop it falling over when you tug the hose, and also to keep it permanently plumbed in during summer.

That's about it, apart from it being the best detailing assessory I have acquired and worth every penny.

I am still cautious about just leaving car wet and not drying it though...


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## MrMatt (Apr 15, 2011)

Hey, my water is of the order of 350ppm and as said I will be doing 2 cars every couple of weeks.

My intention was to plumb the vessel in and then use 1/4 turn ball valves to switch the vessel in and out. 

As you can probably guess my usable water calcs were based on the "test" that you refer to 

I updated my post to add the 7L vessel with 25L of resin as another cost option. 

I'm rubbish at choices!


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## fatdazza (Dec 29, 2010)

garycha said:


> I don't have a ppm meter but can sort of tell when resin is degrading by the way it behaves on ceramic coatings.


A handheld TDS meter can be picked up from ebay for under £5 and is well recommended.

Can you really tell the TDS is rising by the way the water behaves? I seriously doubt it.

Can you evidence your "second sight" by posting pics or videos of this different behaviour? The scientific community would love to know.


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## garycha (Mar 29, 2012)

fatdazza said:


> A handheld TDS meter can be picked up from ebay for under £5 and is well recommended.
> 
> Can you really tell the TDS is rising by the way the water behaves? I seriously doubt it.
> 
> Can you evidence your "second sight" by posting pics or videos of this different behaviour? The scientific community would love to know.





fatdazza said:


> A handheld TDS meter can be picked up from ebay for under £5 and is well recommended.
> 
> Can you really tell the TDS is rising by the way the water behaves? I seriously doubt it.
> 
> Can you evidence your "second sight" by posting pics or videos of this different behaviour? The scientific community would love to know.


Sure Fat: same coatings CS + Exo + Gyeon cure.

Resin spent and fishy smelling, washed in sun and it dries out fast.

Spent water on said coatings, whilst removing bird bomb with onr.








Beads are flatter, edges more revealing uneven, Sheeting less effective.

5 mins later after rinse and whilst was distracted by phone:









Water Spots confirmed. So Refilled vessel, snow foamed and wiped over with Bath+ before finding with fresh DI:

Better: 









Then it ****ed down. Deffo soft water.









I know my coatings and know my DI vessel after 6 happy years.

OK?


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## MrMatt (Apr 15, 2011)

Well I found a 6" x 18" vessel full of MB-115 resin which after a bit of faff is going to cost 54.95 delivered on a value basis I took a punt and went for it as its from a branded manufacturer.


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## Radish293 (Mar 16, 2012)

I recently got a raceglaze 7l so far very happy. Just using it for rinse TDS went from 240 to 0 makes drying a lot less of a chore in the sun. Still getting marking from mirror drips but over all happy. Not sure how long it will last as I’m a regular washer sometimes twice a week. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Cy-Zuki (Feb 9, 2015)

You wont regret it, I am glad I bought mine - two cars, very hot sunshine with one of the cars being a big 4x4 with dark paint which is a nightmare but DI makes it easy.


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## fatdazza (Dec 29, 2010)

garycha said:


> Sure Fat: same coatings CS + Exo + Gyeon cure.
> 
> Resin spent and fishy smelling, washed in sun and it dries out fast.
> 
> ...


Sorry if I missed something but I don't believe a word of it.

So you wiped down with Bathe + (a shampoo which is "fortified with SiO2 rich polymers") and then the beading improved? Well blow me, I would never have expected that  Nothing to do with the rinse water.

Fishy smell does not indicate spent resin.

The picture of water spots posted looks suspiciously like dried rainwater, not water spots from hard water. Anyone rinsing after a wash does not get perfect beading right across the bonnet.

There is no way in the world that you can tell the difference between DI water and tap water simply by the shape of the beading.

PS - the date order of your photos looks a bit odd:

1st photo - 16th March
2nd photo - 14th May
3rd photo - 31st May
4th photo - 28th March.

Photos taken with an Iphone7 - Did you know your photos also give away your location?


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## garycha (Mar 29, 2012)

fatdazza said:


> Sorry if I missed something but I don't believe a word of it.
> 
> So you wiped down with Bathe + (a shampoo which is "fortified with SiO2 rich polymers") and then the beading improved? Well blow me, I would never have expected that  Nothing to do with the rinse water.
> 
> ...


Fishy smell does not indicate spent resin? Read again, cos it not what was posted.

<<Resin spent and fishy smelling,>> that's not cause and effect.

You seem to be happy to detract from OP question and just looking to dispute.

You also know very little about how metadata is embedded in Photobucket , about copies and re-copies with iOS. It's by-option retagged at time of upload, not original capture. Locations easily manipulated too.

A little knowledge etc.

And seeing as you also know where pics taken, and are adamant about third photo being 31st May (that's today BTW). Quite odd that there was no rain and in fact the pics were posted at 1am LAST NIGHT on 31st when it was in fact dark outside. I dare say you have a smart **** answer to that.

You may have just about concluded by now that I have no interest in your comments nor what you think you know.

Apologies @OP for sidetrack.


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## Tyrefitter (Feb 13, 2010)

Mine has a smelly fish smell & the resin has only been in 2 weeks & washed 2 vehicles,,apparently the smell is because I didn't rinse the vessel out properly when I changed the resin.

Andy


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## garycha (Mar 29, 2012)

shy-talk said:


> Mine has a smelly fish smell & the resin has only been in 2 weeks & washed 2 vehicles,,apparently the smell is because I didn't rinse the vessel out properly when I changed the resin.
> 
> Andy


A little bleach or baby kit sterilising fluid easily remedies this. chap from Racegalze made helpful comments elsewhere.

I've not heard anything to suggest that the bacteria that causes the smell, in any way detracts from the effectiveness of the DI water outputs. Just an odd smell and slightly off-putting.


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## fatdazza (Dec 29, 2010)

garycha said:


> Fishy smell does not indicate spent resin? Read again, cos it not what was posted.
> 
> <<Resin spent and fishy smelling,>> that's not cause and effect.
> 
> ...


I dispute because you make claims that are simply not valid. You cannot tell the difference between a bead from tap water and a bead from di water. Fact.


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## Tyrefitter (Feb 13, 2010)

garycha said:


> A little bleach or baby kit sterilising fluid easily remedies this. chap from Racegalze made helpful comments elsewhere.
> 
> I've not heard anything to suggest that the bacteria that causes the smell, in any way detracts from the effectiveness of the DI water outputs. Just an odd smell and slightly off-putting.


someone from Raceglaze posted yesterday to back flush it with bleach,,any idea best way to get bleach through vessel or do I just take lid off put x amount of bleach direct into vessel them run the water the other way for a few minutes.

Andy


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## voon (Apr 28, 2010)

I'd always go for the largest. First I live in 250ppm country and secondly I'm to lazy to constantly run after resin.


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## garycha (Mar 29, 2012)

shy-talk said:


> someone from Raceglaze posted yesterday to back flush it with bleach,,any idea best way to get bleach through vessel or do I just take lid off put x amount of bleach direct into vessel them run the water the other way for a few minutes.
> 
> Andy


I just took it apart, emptied it, rinsed it, washed it with (shock Fairy liquid!) then added bleach and hot water, and left. Seemed just as easy as reversing inlet and outlet.

Were I keeping the resin, 'I'd probably small funnel some bleach in the inlet, shake it about, leave to stand then reconnect and run fresh water through.

Emptying and washing out made most sense as my resin was also spent.

Edit I shall probably get into habit of do this each time I change resin


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## fatdazza (Dec 29, 2010)

garycha said:


> Fishy smell does not indicate spent resin? Read again, cos it not what was posted.
> 
> <<Resin spent and fishy smelling,>> that's not cause and effect.
> 
> ...


Just looked at your pictures again, and I accept that the third photo date was not the 31st May. It was not taken with the iPhone that took the other photos. I am beginning to doubt if it is even the same car.

Locations can be manipulated, but you did not for your photos.

I call people out when they post incorrect information. Too much misinformation provided on forums which is not helpful t members.


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## MrMatt (Apr 15, 2011)

Well after a rummage through the plumbing bits I have all the pipework ready to plumb the vessel in. Just waiting for some more hose to turn up to make the final connections up amd take out the temporary loop Ive put in.










How do people know when the DI water starts comming out of the hose? I assume the benefit in switching from the mains outlet to the DI one will be a burst of air out of the end of the hose pipe when all of the non di water is flushed through? Doesn't really work with my bypass valve though...


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## Peter_222 (Jun 24, 2015)

You’ll definitely need the MB151 if your water is 350ppm. I’d suggest getting two vessels and running water into a Container slowly and not straight into pressure washer as this will use the resin at a much faster rate. 


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## garycha (Mar 29, 2012)

MrMatt said:


> Well after a rummage through the plumbing bits I have all the pipework ready to plumb the vessel in. Just waiting for some more hose to turn up to make the final connections up amd take out the temporary loop Ive put in.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Elaborate set up there! Impressed. I have simple 2 way switch mains into DI inlet.

As I leave it plumbed in, my assumption is that that as soon as I switch inlet to vessel, assuming vessel was already full of DI water, that the flow of water is the length of the outlet hose. It's not going to make that much difference as you will be rinsing of any un-DI stuff quite quickly. Unless you are intending to be super economical with the DI.

You could take lots of readings, but then for the time to stop and do that mid car clean, you may as well just let it run through a bit more, if you are cautious.


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## garycha (Mar 29, 2012)

Peter_222 said:


> You'll definitely need the MB151 if your water is 350ppm. I'd suggest getting two vessels and running water into a Container slowly and not straight into pressure washer as this will use the resin at a much faster rate.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Raceglaze dont recommend using 2 vessels. Their logic being:

_<<Hello folks,
I came across this thread a couple of days ago and thought it worthwhile responding to a few of the points raised. I'm the owner of the RG company and hopefully the insight I can provide will cover off a few queries raised.

Forum: (FredBassett): [has] two in series now and will soon go to three
RG: There is little point in this as the first vessel will do all the work until its resin starts to fail. At this point, not only does TDS rise, but as resin failure is not linear, its exponential - not only will pure tap water come through but it will wash off bonded minerals on the resin. This will go into the second filter and then the third, instantly trashing their resin. Much better and cheaper to just have 1 vessel.>>
_

Makes sense.


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## Peter_222 (Jun 24, 2015)

Well any window cleaner I’ve been onto all have two vessels in a series. Once the first vessel starts producing water that’s above 15ppm the second will put this back to 0 thus prolonging the longevity of the first vessel. You then simply swat them around. I’ve been onto vyair about what I need the pure water for and they strongly advocate two vessels and a tank. I tried the one vessel straight into pressure washer and my resin didn’t last a crack. 


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## Peter_222 (Jun 24, 2015)

And as for pure water washing off bonded minerals in the resin by that logic softer water going into the di vessel in the first place should mean the resin won’t last as long which everyone knows is not the case. 


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## RaceGlazer (Jan 10, 2007)

Q: someone from Raceglaze posted yesterday to back flush it with bleach,,any idea best way to get bleach through vessel or do I just take lid off put x amount of bleach direct into vessel them run the water the other way for a few minutes.

A: If you can unscrew the lid (grease round top afterwards) and pour bleach in solution in vessel, shake/roll to mix and leave for a while. Then connect up hoses the wrong way round, run at half pressure for 1-2 minutes - you can smell the bleach coming through so you'll know when the bleach has gone.


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## RaceGlazer (Jan 10, 2007)

I need to clarify on using vessels in series.

1. Using vessels in this way is really only of use for those with a need for continuous treated water - the second vessel cleans up the output from the first when that has neared its exchange capacity. In car washing this isn't really needed unless its a pro set-up, but has obvious value for window cleaners. So, swap the first vessel with the second and put refreshed resin in position 2 vessel. The 2nd vessel mops up any minerals coming through the first vessel as TDS starts to rise. You'd need to regularly test vessel 1s output or install an electronic in-line tester to know when its rising though.

2. With 2 filters inline, there will be some transfer of minerals from the depleted resin of vessel 1 but not the collapse/dumping inferred elsewhere.


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## Peter_222 (Jun 24, 2015)

I think the most important point when using the di vessel regardless of if you’ve one or two in series is not having it directly connected to pressure washer. This will seriously reduce the life of the resin as the water will be going through it at too fast a rate. For my set up which uses an IBC tank prefilled the two vessels are better. It also means I use nearly all the 25litres bag at a go. 


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## RaceGlazer (Jan 10, 2007)

We dont recommend the use of a PW anyway, as they are most economically used to rinse off the tap water left after your final shampoo rinse off, and an open hose at half mains pressure gives you more control to sheet the beads of tap water off for best results/coverage, rather than blast them with a pw.


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## Darth_Vader (Apr 22, 2018)

I'm looking to buy an 11 litre vessel + resin, but two big name suppliers that I know of are out of resin. I found a pre-filled vessel on Eb** for about 95 quid, but I'm not sure whether I trust it.
Can anyone recommend any vendors, or PM them to me if names are not allowed in posts.


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## garycha (Mar 29, 2012)

Darth_Vader said:


> I'm looking to buy an 11 litre vessel + resin, but two big name suppliers that I know of are out of resin. I found a pre-filled vessel on Eb** for about 95 quid, but I'm not sure whether I trust it.
> Can anyone recommend any vendors, or PM them to me if names are not allowed in posts.


Raceglaze sold me mine. Lots of customers here and on other forums I inhabit, not aware of anyone not delighted with their purchase.

Or the window cleaning and janitorial supplies traders, which is a far bigger market than car cleaning, so they should turn thier stock over more often.


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## garycha (Mar 29, 2012)

Peter_222 said:


> I think the most important point when using the di vessel regardless of if you've one or two in series is not having it directly connected to pressure washer. This will seriously reduce the life of the resin as the water will be going through it at too fast a rate. For my set up which uses an IBC tank prefilled the two vessels are better. It also means I use nearly all the 25litres bag at a go.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I use DI vessel from pw and direct open hose. It much better for snow foam,

The flow rate and volume of an open hose, direct from DI, is probably higher and more continual, than the rate via DI PW, given more on/off nature of pressure wash usage. YMMV of course.

I am not too bothered by using using up the resin too soon.


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## Peter_222 (Jun 24, 2015)

Well for you getting the most out of the resin mightn’t be a top priority but I’d rather not spend £85 for resin twice as often. 

It just seems strange you don’t mind using up the resin quickly costing you extra money but then buy a cheap knock off Rupes polisher??


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## fatdazza (Dec 29, 2010)

Darth_Vader said:


> I'm looking to buy an 11 litre vessel + resin, but two big name suppliers that I know of are out of resin. I found a pre-filled vessel on Eb** for about 95 quid, but I'm not sure whether I trust it.
> Can anyone recommend any vendors, or PM them to me if names are not allowed in posts.


I would recommend buying from a trusted retailer so that you are sure of getting the correct resin.


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## Darth_Vader (Apr 22, 2018)

*Pm*

I see that someone kindly sent me a PM, but I can't read it yet as I haven't posted 10 posts


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## MrMatt (Apr 15, 2011)

This is the one I bought from Vyair via Amazon:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B079JWH9MB/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_awdb_t1_xPAfBbVM92VNH

Then you can use this for 10 quid off if you haven't already bronging the price to 55 quid:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/b?ie=UTF8&node=13829821031


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## Darth_Vader (Apr 22, 2018)

MrMatt said:


> This is the one I bought from Vyair via Amazon:
> https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B079JWH9MB/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_awdb_t1_xPAfBbVM92VNH
> 
> Then you can use this for 10 quid off if you haven't already bronging the price to 55 quid:
> https://www.amazon.co.uk/b?ie=UTF8&node=13829821031


Thank you, that is a great tip! I'd never heard of that top up before. I'll see if they have the 151 resin.


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## garycha (Mar 29, 2012)

Peter_222 said:


> Well for you getting the most out of the resin mightn't be a top priority but I'd rather not spend £85 for resin twice as often.
> 
> It just seems strange you don't mind using up the resin quickly costing you extra money but then buy a cheap knock off Rupes polisher??
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Horses for courses my friend. The cheap knock off Rupes works perfectly well at a price point less than half, the imho over priced Rupes equivalent. My mind was made up by Rupes woeful lack of response to another members here, just out of warranty failed machine. Premium priced, poor service is a No No.
I've used both and the Vertools machine is absolutely fit for purpose, and exceptional VFM.

But for DI resin, something I get benefit from on every wash, the cost/benefit is perfect, and of course no water spots, means less DAing. Win/win.

It makes my snow foam go further too. Win win.

Do I enjoy DAing and pp get worse results with Vertools than a Rupes? No and do I feel after sales service will exceed that of Rupes? Well the bar has been set low.

Long answer to short question. Horses for courses. Niether Rupes nor Vertools invented the genre, nor own the niche. It's just a power tool.

DI I get benefit of every week wash day.

Ps 85 quid for Di refill? Are you sure?

For me it's 75 quid for 25 kg = just short of 4 refills of best virgin bed stuff. That's less than 20 gbp a pop. Not so much.


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## Peter_222 (Jun 24, 2015)

£85 for 25 litres. Where you getting the resin at £75?? Might come in useful. And I’ve a knock off mini rupes myself. Straight from Clover on Ali. £80 all in on sale week. 


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## Peter_222 (Jun 24, 2015)

I tried the di vessel straight into pressure washer to rinse off following wash and it literally lasted less than two months.... that’s an 11 litre vessel. I can get over four times the value doing it my way now into IBC. 

My ppm is 200 and I was using a kranzle 160tst which is putting out 11litres of water a minute. 


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## fatdazza (Dec 29, 2010)

Peter_222 said:


> I tried the di vessel straight into pressure washer to rinse off following wash and it literally lasted less than two months.... that's an 11 litre vessel. I can get over four times the value doing it my way now into IBC.
> 
> My ppm is 200 and I was using a kranzle 160tst which is putting out 11litres of water a minute.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The resin works through contact time with the water. Pulling the water through too quickly will not allow all the disolved solids to be removed.

As with any filtration (or in this case ion exchange), the slower the flow, the more efficient the removal.

Personally I don't see the need to use DI water though a pressure washer. I get much better cleaning power running hot water through my kranzle ( for snow foam and rinse off) and then using 2bm with DI water on slow flow for final rinse.


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## RaceGlazer (Jan 10, 2007)

I had a bad experience with Rupes too - showed huge interest in their products on their stand at the NEC last year, and we used to be a reseller before they went bust about 4-5 years ago.
But they were far more interested in chatting amongst themselves, totally ignored me, so I gave them chapter and verse why I wasn't going to discuss reselling again and walked off to some shocked faces.
As posted above, they don't own the market and bad attitude like that costs you business. I wouldn't sell their kit now if they doubled the discount.


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## Darth_Vader (Apr 22, 2018)

Radish293 said:


> I recently got a raceglaze 7l so far very happy. Just using it for rinse TDS went from 240 to 0 makes drying a lot less of a chore in the sun. Still getting marking from mirror drips but over all happy. Not sure how long it will last as I'm a regular washer sometimes twice a week.


No matter how hard I try, I get drips from the mirrors and the back windows, which does my head in. They drip out every few minutes, then again when I put the car into the garage, and again when the mirrors fold in.

I hoped that purified water would prevent them from leaving marks. Is that not going to be the case then?


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## Radish293 (Mar 16, 2012)

Darth_Vader said:


> No matter how hard I try, I get drips from the mirrors and the back windows, which does my head in. They drip out every few minutes, then again when I put the car into the garage, and again when the mirrors fold in.
> 
> I hoped that purified water would prevent them from leaving marks. Is that not going to be the case then?


I think my PPM has gone up when I first got the DI vessels it worked well. the drips are vary easier to remove


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## garycha (Mar 29, 2012)

Darth_Vader said:


> No matter how hard I try, I get drips from the mirrors and the back windows, which does my head in. They drip out every few minutes, then again when I put the car into the garage, and again when the mirrors fold in.
> 
> I hoped that purified water would prevent them from leaving marks. Is that not going to be the case then?


This would be a benefit of using DI water throughout the wash cycle, as opposed to just during rinse process. There is only DI water to run out.

But if you do just use it for rinse (I do in winter) then run hose into mirrors to drive all the non DI water out of casings. This goes for all areas where water gathers - DI needs to flush it out, otherwise you risk the runs...

If you really want no mirror drips, fold them in out a few times before you put it in garage. Or better still, get yourself a Sidekick mini blower to drive out water from crevices, alloys, mirrors etc.


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## Darth_Vader (Apr 22, 2018)

garycha said:


> This would be a benefit of using DI water throughout the wash cycle, as opposed to just during rinse process. But if you do just use it for rinse (I do in winter) then run hose into mirrors to drive all the non DI water out of casings. This goes for all areas where water gathers - DI needs to flush it out, otherwise you risk the runs...
> 
> If you really want no mirror drips, fold them in out a few times before you put it in garage. Or better still, get yourself a Sidekick mini blower to drive out water from crevices, alloys, mirrors etc.


My current plan is to collect rainwater, fit an in-line filter and use that to snow foam, rinse, and wash the car, then rinse it off using DI water. Hopefully that will work beautifully, otherwise I'll never buy a black car again!


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## RaceGlazer (Jan 10, 2007)

This good advice: for no mirror drips, fold them in out a few times before you put it in garage. Or better still, get yourself an any brand blower to drive out water from crevices, alloys, mirrors etc.

or move the car onto a slope either way to get it to drip out


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## fatdazza (Dec 29, 2010)

garycha said:


> This would be a benefit of using DI water throughout the wash cycle, as opposed to just during rinse process. There is only DI water to run out.
> 
> But if you do just use it for rinse (I do in winter) then run hose into mirrors to drive all the non DI water out of casings. This goes for all areas where water gathers - DI needs to flush it out, otherwise you risk the runs...
> 
> If you really want no mirror drips, fold them in out a few times before you put it in garage. Or better still, get yourself a Sidekick mini blower to drive out water from crevices, alloys, mirrors etc.


Even if you use di water for your wash, it will still contain residue from shampoos. So if not rinsed well, drips from mirrors can still leave marks. The best option you suggest is a blower. I have a small dewalt cordless which is fantastic for blowing out water traps.


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