# Why are Collinite waxes so durable?



## VIPER (May 30, 2007)

Hi all 

I've been experimenting with my new tin of Colly 476s over the weekend. So, as I'm just finishing my lunch break, I thought I'd ask why the Collinite waxes are so much more durable and long lasting than the majority of their rivals at similar prices. I mean they're all 'just' Carnauba wax blends with, I would imagine, basically the same ingredients, albeit in differing percentages. 
Do Collinite add something in the mix that all the others don't to give them their legendary longevity? Taking two extremes of durability - P21s and 476s, there must be a major ingredient in the Colly that the P21s doesn't have, surely?

No reason in particular for wanting to know, just curious


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## hotwaxxx (Jul 12, 2007)

Good question - it must have something to do with quanities of certain ingredients. The P21S concentrate on offering a high quality finish whereas Collinite concentrate on longevity.

Perhaps DodoJuice may be able to help.


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## PhillipM (Jun 7, 2007)

Probably they use far less oil content than the 'looks' waxes.


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## RisingPower (Sep 21, 2007)

I reckon it's the petroleum distillate they use in it. That's why the stuff reeks to high heaven, especially if you have the misfortune of washing and drying applicator pads with the stuff on.

I wouldn't think they use petroleum distillates in most 'nuba waxes, or at least i hope they don't.


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## VIPER (May 30, 2007)

RisingPower said:


> I reckon it's the petroleum distillate they use in it. That's why the stuff reeks to high heaven, especially if you have the misfortune of washing and drying applicator pads with the stuff on.
> 
> I wouldn't think they use petroleum distillates in most 'nuba waxes, or at least i hope they don't.


I must have got a 'dodgy' tin of 476s then (but in a good way) because mine doesn't smell bad, in fact it's not got much smell at all really. And I've found no real problems with washing out application pads either..odd


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## RisingPower (Sep 21, 2007)

Strange, mine certainly smells. Not that pleasant either.

Stuck it in a washing machine and everything came out smelling of it for quite a few washes after.


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## VIPER (May 30, 2007)

Yeah, that is strange. I can't imagine Collinite allowing a 'batch' of 476 to be shipped out with a strange smell? I wouldn't say mine smells 'pleasant' as such, like some of the Z***l waxes I've used, or even Raceglaze Creme Perfection (anyone smelt that, it's lovely  ), but it's certainly not offensive. Usually when I've waxed the car in the garage with some other brands, I can usually smell it for a day or so everytime I go in, but after the Collinite I couldn't even smell it an hour after, so clearly mine has a very weak odour.


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## RisingPower (Sep 21, 2007)

Well ok, not a strange smell, just not a pleasant one. It's ok when everything doesn't smell of it strongly, but it's pretty unpleasant when everything does.

It certainly doesn't smell that strongly out the pot or on the car, but put it in a dryer and it stinks to high heaven.


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## charger17 (Mar 28, 2006)

RisingPower said:


> I reckon it's the petroleum distillate they use in it. That's why the stuff reeks to high heaven, especially if you have the misfortune of washing and drying applicator pads with the stuff on.
> 
> I wouldn't think they use petroleum distillates in most 'nuba waxes, or at least i hope they don't.


Petroleum distillate is just another term for solvent, so I would think you'll find it in all carnauba waxes. 
The fact that the waxes contain carnauba does not mean that they will all have similar durability. Silicone is usually added to the wax in order to make it easier to buff off, and some silicones are more durable that others, plus some companies add several silicones to the mix to improve things like shine, durability, ease of use etc. It may be that they add a synthetic wax to the blend, which again can improve durability.


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## RisingPower (Sep 21, 2007)

Yes, it's a solvent, but it doesn't mean all 'nuba waxes use the same solvent. Or at least i hope they don't, don't think zymo1s cleaner wax does for one.

Also hope there aren't any silicones in 476s.


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## PhillipM (Jun 7, 2007)

Why on earth would you hope that?


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## Dodo Factory (Apr 11, 2007)

RisingPower said:


> I reckon it's the petroleum distillate they use in it. That's why the stuff reeks to high heaven, especially if you have the misfortune of washing and drying applicator pads with the stuff on.
> 
> I wouldn't think they use petroleum distillates in most 'nuba waxes, or at least i hope they don't.


This is my personal take on it. The Collinite waxes are very good but they use the mother of all solvents. And the tin is a nuisance to get into and can go rusty  . Great value tho', and a huge inspiration to us at Dodo Juice.

If you use a more user-friendly solvent then it can be tougher to get the same results - we like to think that the Dodo waxes do pretty well durability-wise whilst smelling nice at the some time. The new Doublewax should last even longer than the main Dodo range, and it would be interesting to see that vs Colly.


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## RisingPower (Sep 21, 2007)

PhillipM said:


> Why on earth would you hope that?


Because you can't wash foam applicators with it in a machine and then tumble dry, can only get some of it off with fairy liquid. That and it doesn't exactly smell that nice.

Yeah it spreads well because it's got a petroleum distillate in it but it's more hassle to clean.

And yes, i'm looking forward to trying the 8 pot samples of dodo with this as one of the reasons, not to mention the results from dodo so far.


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## PhillipM (Jun 7, 2007)

The silicon I mean.


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## RisingPower (Sep 21, 2007)

I thought silicon based waxes weren't quite as good in terms of finish as ones which aren't silicon based and the silicon acts as a filler? May be entirely wrong here though and probably am  Apologies if i am.


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## rubbishboy (May 6, 2006)

RisingPower said:


> I thought silicon based waxes weren't quite as good in terms of finish as ones which aren't silicon based and the silicon acts as a filler? May be entirely wrong here though and probably am  Apologies if i am.


Get yourself a cup of tea and have a read of this http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=38432 It's got quite long so will take a bit of reading but you may find the answer here.


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## RisingPower (Sep 21, 2007)

Oops, been a while since i read that and forgot most of it. Cheers rb.


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## leistrum (Feb 10, 2007)

I know that silcones arent good for the paint.They seep into the paint finsih right to the base metal and can cause problems with paint taking if any respray work is ever required(even onec a panel is taken back to bare metal).
But does anyone know if Collinite waxes contain silicones?


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## V3polo6n2 (Jan 14, 2007)

And are you sure that #476s is really a wax with carnauba?

Yes, my question is strange but... it's like that!


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## rubbishboy (May 6, 2006)

leistrum said:


> I know that silcones arent good for the paint.They seep into the paint finsih right to the base metal and can cause problems with paint taking if any respray work is ever required(even onec a panel is taken back to bare metal).
> But does anyone know if Collinite waxes contain silicones?


Depends on the silicone you are talking about. There are different types that do different things. Some good, some bad.


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## TOGWT (Oct 26, 2005)

Collinite waxes contain a polymer, polymers form a molecular bond to the paint surface and this is what gives it its durability over a Carnauba wax

*Synthetic* (Microcrystalline) waxes - entered the wax market in the last 50 years or so. They are usually formulated from Polydimethylsiloxane (PDS) or dimethicone) silicon, which is a basically inert, water based, amino functional polymer resin, Carnauba wax and also contain substantial proportions of branched and cyclic saturated hydrocarbons in addition to normal alkenes. These synthetic waxes are more durable than the natural carnauba

All synthetic waxes have the same basic structure, but the various production processes yield products with distinctly different properties, and these have a major impact on the use of products

_See also, Wax-An article http://www.detailuniversity.com/forums/school-exterior-detailing/1332-wax-article.html_


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## Bigpikle (May 21, 2007)

interesting article - cheers :thumb:


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## VIPER (May 30, 2007)

So do collinite have no carnauba wax in them at all then - it's all synthetic? I thought they were a 'nuba based product


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## Multipla Mick (Feb 5, 2006)

They mention 915 as having high concentrations of carnauba on the Colly web site but no mention in the 476 write up for example, but that doesn't mean it doesn't have carnauba in it.


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## VIPER (May 30, 2007)

Very interesting reading in the 'Detail University' link. How I understand it from that article, it seems that 'pure' carnauba based waxes with no other waxes blended in and no synthetic poylmer content, are risking the possiblity of reaching their 'melting' point on the surface of a dark coloured car when exposed to direct sunlight, and therefore evaporating away. 
A black, red or dark blue car's paint can get to very hot temps if parked in the sun all day in summer. According to this article a car panel can reach 195 degrees F and pure carnauba melts/evaporates at 180.

I guess this isn't such a problem in the UK as it's always bloody freezin'  but on the odd occasion when we _do_ get a 'heat wave' I'd be a bit nervous of my wax layer evaporating away if it was one of the 100% carnauba ones (especially as my cars are black and red), so am quite glad I've started using Collinite, especially as it's the best 'winter' wax as well.


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## TOGWT (Oct 26, 2005)

seischumi said:


> So do collinite have no carnauba wax in them at all then - it's all synthetic? I thought they were a 'nuba based product


They are formulated with Carnauba and / or other waxes, silicone and polymers
Synthetic (Microcrystalline) waxes - entered the wax market in the last 50 years or so. They are usually *formulated from Polydimethylsiloxane (PDS) or dimethicone) silicon,* which is a basically inert, water based, amino functional polymer resin, *Carnauba wax *and also contain substantial proportions of branched and cyclic saturated hydrocarbons in addition to normal alkenes. These synthetic waxes are more durable than the natural carnauba


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## TOGWT (Oct 26, 2005)

leistrum said:


> I know that silcones arent good for the paint.They seep into the paint finsih right to the base metal and can cause problems with paint taking if any respray work is ever required(even onec a panel is taken back to bare metal).
> But does anyone know if Collinite waxes contain silicones?


*Good Silicone / Not so good Silicone:*
The myth of grouping all silicones into one category and label them harmful; environmentally unsound or dangerous is just that, a myth, and like most myths there is some, albeit little truth to it (see Dimethal silicone) Making an all encompassing statement that products that contain silicone are harmful shows a lack of any real knowledge of the petroleum refining processes; these irresponsible statements are purely misinformation at best, and are meant to mislead or to be used as negative marketing.

Silicones are primarily used to modify or improve certain characteristics; they are sometimes added as a lubricant to provide spread ability thereby making a product easier to apply, or added to spray-on type products to help atomize the product. The automotive industry uses silicones as component parts (see polymerisation) in its plastic, vinyl, rubber, paints, and fibreglass as well as in polishes and waxes.

*a) Water - based silicone dressings, usually a milky-white liquid, (Polydimethylsiloxane* (PDS) - doesn't contain petroleum distillate; silicone oils, waxes, or solvents that can harm rubber and/or vinyl over time. Water-based dressings use a combination of natural oils and polymers to offer a non-greasy, satin finish. Some of these products also contain ultra violet radiation (UVR) blocking agents to help keep tires from cracking, fading and hardening. Most, if not all water-based dressings are environmentally friendly / biodegradable, whereas solvent-based silicone is not.

*b) Solvent-based silicone dressings - * usually a clear greasy liquid, (Dimethal (DMS) that contain petroleum solvents as a cleaning agent, they remove the elasticity from vinyl, rubber and paint; causing them to evaporate out of the substrate, leaving behind a dry inflexible surface. Most high gloss products are based upon DMS silicone oil, the difference between water and solvent based is in the carrier system used. Solvent based products use a hydrocarbon silicone to suspend the product. When you apply it, the solvent evaporates leaving the dressing's active ingredients (Silicone oil) behind; solvent-based silicone is not biodegradable.


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## VIPER (May 30, 2007)

Off topic a bit but, given your obvious in-depth understanding of this, TOGWT, do you recommend water based rubber/vinyl dressings over the solvent ones. I currently use a water based one, but have been back and forth in deciding what to replace it with when I run out. I don't want to be damaging my rubber and plastic with prolonged use of a solvent one.


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## TOGWT (Oct 26, 2005)

seischumi said:


> Off topic a bit but, given your obvious in-depth understanding of this, TOGWT, do you recommend water based rubber/vinyl dressings over the solvent ones. I currently use a water based one, but have been back and forth in deciding what to replace it with when I run out. I don't want to be damaging my rubber and plastic with prolonged use of a solvent one.


"...do you recommend water based rubber/vinyl dressings over the solvent ones."

Unequivocally *yes* as they remove the elasticity from vinyl, rubber and paint; causing them to evaporate out of the substrate, leaving behind a dry inflexible surface that will fail (crack).


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## VIPER (May 30, 2007)

Many thanks, my friend :thumb: I'll stick to the water based ones.


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## Jace (Oct 26, 2005)

Dodo Factory said:


> If you use a more user-friendly solvent then it can be tougher to get the same results - we like to think that the Dodo waxes do pretty well durability-wise whilst smelling nice at the some time. The new Doublewax should last even longer than the main Dodo range, and it would be interesting to see that vs Colly.


Send me a sample & I'll test it up against the 915 & 476 I have :thumb:


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## Bence (Dec 21, 2006)

EG Zymöls contain silicones too, just as Zaino.


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## charger17 (Mar 28, 2006)

TOGWT said:


> Collinite waxes contain a polymer, polymers form a molecular bond to the paint surface and this is what gives it its durability over a Carnauba wax
> 
> *Synthetic* (Microcrystalline) waxes - entered the wax market in the last 50 years or so. They are usually formulated from Polydimethylsiloxane (PDS) or dimethicone) silicon, which is a basically inert, water based, amino functional polymer resin, Carnauba wax and also contain substantial proportions of branched and cyclic saturated hydrocarbons in addition to normal alkenes. These synthetic waxes are more durable than the natural carnauba
> 
> ...


This info is way off, first of all, Microcrystalline Waxes are synthetic waxes made from oil. They use Microcrystalline Wax in Cosmoline. So, they are not based on silicone. They are inert however in that they don't react or adhere to the surface with any type of charge.
As for the Polydimethylsiloxane, you're combining the regular silicone fluid which is made from Si and is inert, not water-based (In fact it doesn't like water and has to be emulsified with emulsifiers to stay in water ) and another type of polydimethylsiloxane which is Amino-Functional Polydimethylsiloxane which is charged and cures. It also is not water-based. There is in fact no such thing as an inert, water based Amino-Functional Polydimethylsiloxane compound


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## rubbishboy (May 6, 2006)

^^^
Agree with this, PDMS is not water based, it won't mix with water unless you make an emulsion. I've tried!

There are some manufacturers who produce it as an emulsion though, ready to be used in water based systems.


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## VIPER (May 30, 2007)

Hmmm, there appears to be a lot of very contradicting information coming through here. Like any forum, people have their 'opinions' on whether a product is good or not, which is fair enough, but when scientific facts are being stated and then accused of being wrong, it starts to get a bit dodgy - I mean both can't be right. In my view, unless someone is 100% sure of any kind of scientific fact relating directly to products we all use, then they should keep it off the forum as it could falsely steer people in the wrong direction in their purchases. As I said, an opinion's an opinion and we can all either take it or leave it, but all this 'chemistry speak' does have an air of unquestionable fact about it as most of us won't understand it but will tend to believe it.


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## TOGWT (Oct 26, 2005)

charger17 said:


> This info is way off, first of all, Microcrystalline Waxes are synthetic waxes made from oil. They use Microcrystalline Wax in Cosmoline. So, they are not based on silicone. They are inert however in that they don't react or adhere to the surface with any type of charge.
> As for the Polydimethylsiloxane, you're combining the regular silicone fluid which is made from Si and is inert, not water-based (In fact it doesn't like water and has to be emulsified with emulsifiers to stay in water ) and another type of polydimethylsiloxane which is Amino-Functional Polydimethylsiloxane which is charged and cures. It also is not water-based. There is in fact no such thing as an inert, water based Amino-Functional Polydimethylsiloxane compound


How do you make a wax from oil? Most waxes including synthetic waxes contain silicone as it carrier system and also to provide surface lubrication.

The key word as far as the description of products that contain PDS silicones is "formulated" ; it is made into an emulsion, which then becomes a water-based oil.

There would be no point of describing car care product contents by their basic chemicals, as few (other than Chemists or ChemE's) would be either interested or understand the teminology.


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## charger17 (Mar 28, 2006)

TOGWT said:


> How do you make a wax from oil? Most waxes including synthetic waxes contain silicone as it carrier system and also to provide surface lubrication.
> 
> The key word as far as the description of products that contain PDS silicones is "formulated" ; it is made into an emulsion, which then becomes a water-based oil.
> 
> There would be no point of describing car care product contents by their basic chemicals, as few (other than Chemists or ChemE's) would be either interested or understand the teminology.


i'm sorry but I think you're getting a little confused. One minute you're talking about microcrystalline waxes (which are a type of wax produced by de-oiling petrolatum, as part of the petroleum refining process) which I would describe as being a raw material used in the manufacture of certain products, mainly cosmetics, and then you say 'There would be no point of describing car care product contents by their basic chemicals, as few (other than Chemists or ChemE's) would be either interested or understand the teminology.' This to me is a contradiction.

As for emulsions, when making a wax or polish you can either use an 'oil in water' emulsion (water based) or a 'water in oil' emulsion (oil based). The water based formulas tend to work better for us here in the UK, where as the oil based products are more suited to drier, warmer climates.


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## ron231 (Jul 30, 2007)

> Also hope there aren't any silicones in 476s.


There is in zym01 waxes,  so why not?


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## Toolman (Nov 17, 2007)

TOGWT said:


> "...do you recommend water based rubber/vinyl dressings over the solvent ones."
> 
> Unequivocally *yes* as they remove the elasticity from vinyl, rubber and paint; causing them to evaporate out of the substrate, leaving behind a dry inflexible surface that will fail (crack).


...but the water based dressings will not last more than one downpour. So for interior I will stick to water-based one but for exterior...hmmm???


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## T-5ones (Sep 12, 2006)

leistrum said:


> I know that silcones arent good for the paint.They seep into the paint finsih right to the base metal and can cause problems with paint taking if any respray work is ever required(even onec a panel is taken back to bare metal).


Slightly off topic but this is exactly the case with antique furniture. Silicones in spray polishes from Mr.Fekinsheen and alike seep through shellac into the timber below. Even if a table is stripped and repolished the silicones continue to seep back out of the timber ruining any new polish work.


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