# Help please: Paintwork cleanser + glaze



## Raptor_F22 (Apr 8, 2015)

Hi all! :wave:

After some great feedback from more experienced folk on DW, I'm taking another look at my inventory and need some advice. 

My black car is chocka-block full of swirl marks and scratches courtesy of the previous owner who didn't look after it. However, I have no experience of using a DA or Rotary and have no sheltered area with which to give my best shot at paint work correction.

I am looking at paintwork cleansers though to help clean the bodywork as best as I can. 

I know the process to follow will be to wash and clay etc then use the PW-cleanser before applying my LSP. 

My question is, is it at all worth using a glaze such as Koch Chemie's Speedshine Polish (my product of choice), before applying the PW-cleanser? Or will the PW-cleanser simply remove the effects of the glaze?
Would I just be better off using something like Gtechniq's P1 as it's mildly abrasive?

The black colour has slightly-faded in my opinion due to lack of care by the previous owner so again...just want to try my best to restore and enhance the colour without the use of a DA or scrubbing for hours by hand.

Or am I just not being realistic? Any advice appreciated! :thumb:

Side note: The PW-cleanser I've ordered is Swissvax Cleaner fluid (normal). I was going to go for strong + medium + normal as the Swissax website outlines is the correct methodology but I simply can't afford them all and think it would be really time consuming.


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## steelghost (Aug 20, 2015)

I am in a similar position in so much as I have a (metallic) black car with less-than-perfect (although not terrible) paint, and no time to take on mechanical paint correction.

The route I'm going to be taking is full paint decontamination (iron / tar / clay) followed by Bilt Hamber Cleanser Polish (slightly abrasive resin polish) topped with either Auto Balm or Finis Wax. I've also got some BH Auto-QD to maintain the LSP.

Coming back to your query I can't see a glaze standing up to a paint cleaner, I suspect it would just get removed. Something like R222 GEP might be worth a go under your LSP of choice.

I think to make any meaningful difference to an entire car with a hand polish would be a huge amount of effort - so I'm electing not to bother, and accept whatever I can get with the polish + LSP route.


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## Raptor_F22 (Apr 8, 2015)

steelghost said:


> I am in a similar position in so much as I have a (metallic) black car with less-than-perfect (although not terrible) paint, and no time to take on mechanical paint correction.
> 
> The route I'm going to be taking is full paint decontamination (iron / tar / clay) followed by Bilt Hamber Cleanser Polish (slightly abrasive resin polish) topped with either Auto Balm or Finis Wax. I've also got some BH Auto-QD to maintain the LSP.
> 
> ...


Thanks for sharing! I've stuck with the Swissvax as I've already paid for it, just waiting delivery. However I've now ordered Gtechniq's P1 to use before applying it.

Similarly to you I'll be following this method: APC pre-wash, iron/tar/bug remover & wash with G-Wash, Clay bar using BH Clay, wash again with G-Wash, Gtechniq P1 polish using foam puck, Swissvax cleaner fluid then LSP will be R222 wax (2-3 layers depending on my stamina... )


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## steelghost (Aug 20, 2015)

I just went and looked up some old threads and videos on Gtechniq P1, since it's not a product I know much about although heard it mentioned a lot. Never realised I could have that much effect by hand! Might have to look into some to try and reduce the appearance of some of the marks it's picked up - it's a Toyota so paint is relatively soft, shouldn't kill the arms too much


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## Ross (Apr 25, 2007)

BH cleanser polish is superb,it has to be the best pre wac cleaner I have used.


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## Raptor_F22 (Apr 8, 2015)

steelghost said:


> I just went and looked up some old threads and videos on Gtechniq P1, since it's not a product I know much about although heard it mentioned a lot. Never realised I could have that much effect by hand! Might have to look into some to try and reduce the appearance of some of the marks it's picked up - it's a Toyota so paint is relatively soft, shouldn't kill the arms too much


I used it once when I was new to the game - slapped it on a microfibre cloth and went at my paintwork like Rocky Balboa. The car won and after about 40 minutes of scrubbing I was spent lol and it had little impact. Be sure to use an appropriate pad/puck etc which will reward your hard work!


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## A&J (Mar 4, 2015)

Ross said:


> BH cleanser polish is superb,it has to be the best pre wac cleaner I have used.


I like it too. Real easy to use, wipes off clean and easy, very glassy looking and very slick...It has to be the slickest finish Ive ever touched. Good for sealants also (Ive used FK1000p over it and its still good after 3 months).

Now to answer Raptors question. The method you chosen is OK. you can leave the second wash after clay because you are going to polish anyway. 
Use P1 with a trifoam applicator (white side) for polishing and black side for pre wax cleanser. Then at least 2 coats of R222.

You could just try and polish with P1 one panel and check the results. If you are removing anything then continue.

However your best bet in reducing the swirls and scratches is by hiding them or filling them up with a heavy filler glaze and topping that with wax. You can use a pre wax before followed by glaze followed by wax.

Whatever you do tape a line on the bonnet and make a 50:50 and post it here :wave:


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## OvEr_KiLL (Mar 2, 2015)

to sort mine out i use af rejuvenate pre wax cleanser followed by ultra glaze and wax on the top to seal it in 
try p1 then swissvax and see how it looks.. if your not happy then stick a glaze on the top and then wax


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## Raptor_F22 (Apr 8, 2015)

OvEr_KiLL said:


> to sort mine out i use af rejuvenate pre wax cleanser followed by ultra glaze and wax on the top to seal it in
> try p1 then swissvax and see how it looks.. if your not happy then stick a glaze on the top and then wax


okay thanks - it's just the last time I used a glaze before waxing, I was told by quite a few people on here that i was reducing the durability of my wax and that paintwork cleaner then LSP is the only way to ensure maximum durability from the wax.

That's why i'm a bit "Should I...shouldn't I?" about the whole glaze thing. Guess i'll have to try it out and see how it goes


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## A&J (Mar 4, 2015)

Glaze doesnt affect carnauba waxes, it affects sealants as they bond better to paint and not a glaze.

If you are going to choose a carnauba wax as your LSP then it doesnt matter what you have underneath.

One thing about the R222 wax you have. Dont expect a long durability as it is more of a show wax meaning ir looks great but dont last very long.


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## Raptor_F22 (Apr 8, 2015)

A&J said:


> Glaze doesnt affect carnauba waxes, it affects sealants as they bond better to paint and not a glaze.
> 
> If you are going to choose a carnauba wax as your LSP then it doesnt matter what you have underneath.
> 
> I dont know which one of the R222 waxes you have but dont expect a long durability as they are more show waxes meaning they look great but dont last very long.


I have the concours wax as I find it really easy and quick to apply. I have some BH doublespeed wax too but open to suggestions. I did want to get the R222 paste wax but was told it's performance was similar to the BH. I'd love to try Swissvax's Shield Wax or the Blau-Weiss one for BMW's as I have a black E92.


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## chongo (Jun 7, 2014)

A&J said:


> Glaze doesnt affect carnauba waxes, it affects sealants as they bond better to paint and not a glaze.
> 
> If you are going to choose a carnauba wax as your LSP then it doesnt matter what you have underneath.
> 
> One thing about the R222 wax you have. Dont expect a long durability as it is more of a show wax meaning ir looks great but dont last very long.


A&J so all Glazes will effect a sealant bonding and reducing it's protection capabilities :thumb:


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## OvEr_KiLL (Mar 2, 2015)

they reckon the durability is around 1 month with that r222 wax. i thought the bh double speed wax was a lot longer.
theres loads of waxes out there!


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## James_R (Jun 28, 2007)

Wash
Clay
Paintwork Cleanse
Glaze
Wax or seal

I've just done my black MINI with Prima Amigo (acrylic glaze which is good prep for a sealant or wax)

Filled in loads of the fine swirls the paintwork had in when I bought it.
I've corrected roof/bonnet/boot, but the sides have been glazed

Looks impressive now, I'm really happy til Spring comes and/or a bit better weather means I can correct the rest of it


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## A&J (Mar 4, 2015)

chongo said:


> A&J so all Glazes will effect a sealant bonding and reducing it's protection capabilities :thumb:


If they come from the same manufacturer than they might play all right together (like Chemical guys glaze + Jet seal) but if you mix and match manufacturers then chances are the sealant will not bond properly...

I see Ive cought your attention today chongo


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## chongo (Jun 7, 2014)

A&J said:


> If they come from the same manufacturer than they might play all right together (like Chemical guys glaze + Jet seal) but if you mix and match manufacturers then chances are the sealant will not bond properly...
> 
> I see Ive cought your attention today chongo


Why what have you done that's made you think like that
You can still use many Glazes out there that are not same name as the sealant and still bond, but the likes of W/C they have a nano glaze which is a good filler glaze but acts as a good base to apply there own product on top:thumb:


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## Hufty (Apr 27, 2015)

Hi guys decontamination is first step wash, then detar and use an iron fallout remover, wash again, then clay, wash again then use a polish, if paint is still little swirly then use a filler glaze prima amigo is good on black and finally wax. 

Blackfire midnight sun is generally regarded as awesome on black if you layer up the polish and wax. Keep it topped after washes with quick detailer and you should only need to do the first steps twice a year. Before winter and spring.


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## chongo (Jun 7, 2014)

Huffy, you wash three times in your Decon stage then dry?


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## A&J (Mar 4, 2015)

chongo said:


> You can still use many Glazes out there that are not same name as the sealant and still bond, but the likes of W/C they have a nano glaze which is a good filler glaze but acts as a good base to apply there own product on top:thumb:


OK to be fair there all loads of different products out there and each is unique in its own way.

IMO many of the products that are advertised as glazes should be in the AIO category for instance:
- Wolfs chemicals nano glaze is similar to Carpro Essence. Both have a little cut to shave away edges of the scratch or swirl, both have fillers to fill the imperfactions and they both leave a coat of SiO2 protection behind that acts as a primer for a coating. 
- Chemical guys glaze with acrylic shine is just that. It is a filler heavy product that fills imperfactions and ads a acrylic resin protection that in term is liquid plastic. Acrylic resin is also considered extremely weatherproof. This makes it ideal for outdoor applications. In solid form acrylic resin can even last for decades. It does not yellow, when exposed to sunlight even after years. That is where the UVA and UVB protection comes from in advertising.

Then true AIO products that do it all
Autobrite Cherry glaze, cleans paint, fills and protects. Similar to it is Auto finesse Tripple, Bilt hamber cleanser polish, Autoglym SRP, Chemical guys blacklight...

Then there are others that should be considered as jeweler polishes like Britemax Blackmax.

Some are pre wax cleaners (being abrasive or not) but add some polishing oils that slightly fill and leave something we all love...wet look :doublesho... these are R222 pre wax cleanser, Blackfire GEP, Victorias Deep cleanse, Meguiars ultimate polish...

Some are sealants with filling ability like Bilt hamber auto balm.

...and so on.

IMO a true glaze is a product that only fills imperfections and does little to no more such as Auto finesse ultra glaze, Autobrite extreme glaze, Poorboys black hole and white diamond.

To think about it IMO you can divide glazes into two types:
- the one that leaves behind a wet look. From this you know it adds loads of glazing oils or waxes and only a carnauba wax will sit nicely on them. Sealants will not bond to oils as it needs a clean and dry surface.
These are R222 pre wax cleanser, Blackfire GEP, Victorias Deep cleanse, Meguiars ultimate polish, Meguiars #7, Poorboys glazes, Auto finesse ultra glaze, Auto finesse rejuvinate, Auto finesse tripple, Autobrite cherry glaze...

- the one that leaves behind a dry glassy and shiny look. From this you will know it leaves some sort of durable acylic protection behind that is compatible with most sealants and waxes.
These are Bilt hamber cleanser polish + auto balm, SRP, Chemical guys glazes, Prima amigo, Carlack, Klasse AIO...

- there is a third kind. I already mentioned Carpro Essence and Wolfs chemicals Nano glaze that are meant to be used before a coating. Now while carnauba waxes will sit nicely on them, I can not say the same for most of the sealants and what their durability would be. Unless someone has any experience with sticking a FK1000p on top of Carpro Essence and checking its durability it still remains a mistery.

This is just my opinion....I might be wrong so this is open to comment but the fact is that every product is different and you have to understand what it is before you apply it if you want the max out of it.

Cheers (just took 2h to write this, now I have to go back to work :lol

:wave:


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## chongo (Jun 7, 2014)

Pmsl, all you had to say is I was wrong what I said! That's it, 
Sorry it took you so long, 
Now then Essence and W/C, you said...... Only joking. Chongo.


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## A&J (Mar 4, 2015)

chongo said:


> Pmsl, all you had to say is I was wrong what I said! That's it,
> Sorry it took you so long,
> Now then Essence and W/C, you said...... Only joking. Chongo.


No no...you were right! I was wrong when I said that ALL glazes affect sealants when in truth some do and some dont.

Thats why the long version :thumb:


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## chongo (Jun 7, 2014)

A&J said:


> No no...you were right! I was wrong when I said that ALL glazes affect sealants when in truth some do and some dont.
> 
> Thats why the long version :thumb:


I know I was right:thumb: I just said that YOU say you were wrong.
Nice banter anyway A&J:thumb: A&J, have you used Essence before


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## A&J (Mar 4, 2015)

No i havent...but I know a detailer that uses it often as he is a certified Carpro installer. He says its a total game changer for applying Carpro coatings.

I have got loads too many products at home and not enough cars to try them on. :wave:


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## Raptor_F22 (Apr 8, 2015)

Thanks everyone for the helpful posts! I won't deny it's left me a little confused at times lol but hopefully it's helping others too

I agree with Hufty's method of 3 x wash. It's what I used to do when i had all my kit as I found a surprising amount of residue gets left behind when claying and when doing it outdoors, depending on the season, contaminants find their way onto the bodywork again. 

I've not heard of Blackfire midnight sun - who does that? 

What do you guys make of SCHOLL Concepts S20 Black Real 1-Step Compound? The Ultimate Finish website says you can apply by hand but I'm assuming that it would take a hell of an effort? Seems more suitable for DA/rotary's


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## chongo (Jun 7, 2014)

Washing x3 is a waste of time and product, and contaminants find their way back onto the paint, well it probably would if you live in Chernobyl


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## james_death (Aug 9, 2010)

Blackfire is the brand label...

http://www.motorgeek.co.uk/cgi-bin/ecom.cgi?Command=SearchProducts&stext=black+fire

As mentioned else where you can do correction in stages, but glaze and even just wax without glaze will hide swirls and marring.

As for waxes over glazes remember you working a wax in and the friction is going to take away some of the glaze or mix with it.... This is if your using a paste/solid wax.... i would look to a more liquid wax in that case going over a glaze.

Again you are going to loose some longevity going over a glaze weather wax or sealant as to working better with same manufacturer thats no guarantee.

If i remember correctly chem guys gloss workz glaze was better for sealants i have some still on a shelf along with a good few other glazes i just don't use them.

You can get great results with just a good claying, a full decon better.

Daily drivers your better off going for improvement, feel free to go full correction if you wish but your taking more clear away that you could need later and your going to get it marked again as a daily driver.

Can still look a stunner as mentioned a good cleanser and glazes and or waxes etc can serve you well but sealants you really want tip top paint for that your glazes and waxes will hide stuff rather than a sealant.

Yes cleanser before your glaze and or wax.


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