# bmw quarter panel bonded and riveted.



## Andyb0127

Gone are the days of spotwelding and mig welding quarter panels the new way is to panel bond and rivet them on here's a few pics of it being done.


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## mm289

Interesting stuff. Have heard about the bonding but not seen it. Also seen some vid's on mig brazing being used (kit is reallly expensive) on non structural areas.

Works better with the high carbon steels used in modern panels.

MM


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## Bero

Interesting - so are the nuts, washers and stud bar removed after the glue sets, then the holes filled or are they just ground off?


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## cheffi

there are some internal bmw documents about this technique... but i dont remember where i put them -.-


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## Andyb0127

*updated pics*

yes all the plastic nut are ground down flat after the bonding has fully cured which is twelve hours, then we apply bmw metal filler over this which takes sixteen hours to cure this is sanded down as you would a normal filler, finally we will give it a finishing of bmw fine body stopper.

















above is plastic nut and bonding ground down ready for metal filler

















metal filler aplied just use it the same way you would a normal body filler

















bmw metal filler


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## blackbmw

Andyb0127, this is a great thread and very informative. I have an issue that I would like to get your (or any other forum members') thoughts on. 

I was in an accident last year that required my quarter panel to be replaced. I took my car to a BMW certified collision shop for repair. About a week after I received my car back, I noticed that I could see the outline of the rivet-bond seam under direct sunlight. The paint itself was not raised, but I could see the outline of the seam (including the outline of two round discs where the rivets were used) under the paint. I returned my car to the BMW repair center. 

BMW removed my quarter panel and went through the repair process again (this time, they even brought in a repair/paint supervisor from one of their prep/training centers to oversee the process). BMW suspected that the repair process had not been performed correctly the first time, while the BMW repair center claimed they had followed all instructions, and that the rivet-bond process was flawed - perhaps because the filler expands when it is hot outside, or due to some other unknown reason. Either way, BMW and the BMW repair center agreed that the repair was performed properly the second time. 

A few days ago, I noticed the seam again under direct sunlight, which leads me to believe that the BMW center was correct all along, and that the rivet-bond process used by BMW is flawed. I raised this issue with the BMW repair center and they will be discussing the problem with BMW. 

Have anyone ever seen this situation occur? Could it be due to the filler that is used? Any ideas how to resolve this? While the rivet-bond seam is not visible unless under direct sunlight or at certain angles in garages, I feel like the seam should not show under any circumstances. However, I do not want BMW disassembling my car just to try the same rivet-bond process, which obviously is not working. Any thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks in advance.


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## sinizter

Does this affect the strength of the car in anyway at all ?

I guess it shouldn't make a difference as this is just on a thin metal skin.


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## Andyb0127

blackbmw said:


> Andyb0127, this is a great thread and very informative. I have an issue that I would like to get your (or any other forum members') thoughts on.
> 
> I was in an accident last year that required my quarter panel to be replaced. I took my car to a BMW certified collision shop for repair. About a week after I received my car back, I noticed that I could see the outline of the rivet-bond seam under direct sunlight. The paint itself was not raised, but I could see the outline of the seam (including the outline of two round discs where the rivets were used) under the paint. I returned my car to the BMW repair center.
> 
> BMW removed my quarter panel and went through the repair process again (this time, they even brought in a repair/paint supervisor from one of their prep/training centers to oversee the process). BMW suspected that the repair process had not been performed correctly the first time, while the BMW repair center claimed they had followed all instructions, and that the rivet-bond process was flawed - perhaps because the filler expands when it is hot outside, or due to some other unknown reason. Either way, BMW and the BMW repair center agreed that the repair was performed properly the second time.
> 
> A few days ago, I noticed the seam again under direct sunlight, which leads me to believe that the BMW center was correct all along, and that the rivet-bond process used by BMW is flawed. I raised this issue with the BMW repair center and they will be discussing the problem with BMW.
> 
> Have anyone ever seen this situation occur? Could it be due to the filler that is used? Any ideas how to resolve this? While the rivet-bond seam is not visible unless under direct sunlight or at certain angles in garages, I feel like the seam should not show under any circumstances. However, I do not want BMW disassembling my car just to try the same rivet-bond process, which obviously is not working. Any thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks in advance.


Yes I know what the problem is on this, I'm at work at the moment I'll explain what is is tonight for you.


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## Andyb0127

sinizter said:


> Does this affect the strength of the car in anyway at all ?
> 
> I guess it shouldn't make a difference as this is just on a thin metal skin.


No it doesn't in anyway affect the structural integrity of the car. We have written methods from bmw, on where to make all the cuts as to where the joins are.


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## JMorty

This is great, will be checking in! :thumb:


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## squiggs

I'm going to have a guess that with so many materials being used (2 fillers, bonding, plastic, metal) that the problem is going to be one of shrinkage.


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## toddy23

its just a matter of time before it all sinks back and shows up with that method,its not joined at bmw like that so why now,yes there should be a method pack to show you where to cut the 1/4 and how many spot welds to be used but that should be welded where its joined instead of bonded,are you a pas 125 bodyshop?


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## blackbmw

Andyb0127 said:


> Yes I know what the problem is on this, I'm at work at the moment I'll explain what is is tonight for you.


Thanks, Andy - looking forward to it!


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## geoff.mac

informative as always Andy :thumb: interested to hear what you've to say about it showing in direct sunlight


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## Andyb0127

toddy23 said:


> its just a matter of time before it all sinks back and shows up with that method,its not joined at bmw like that so why now,yes there should be a method pack to show you where to cut the 1/4 and how many spot welds to be used but that should be welded where its joined instead of bonded,are you a pas 125 bodyshop?


yes we are fully pas 125 approved, bmw approved, mercedes approved, jaguar approved, aston martin approved, ata accredited, all staff are fully trained and up to date with all training courses we need. yes we do have methods with ev ery job sheet when repairing, this will tell us the process we need to use measurements for all the joins, how many punch rivets are to used in all appetures, and where body rivets are to be used. no there not joined like that at bmw but this is there process now used for replacing panels, chassis rails, etc. it wont be long before all manufacturers are following the same process.:thumb:


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## Andyb0127

blackbmw said:


> Thanks, Andy - looking forward to it!


Yes we have suffered from these problems, when bmw first brought this repair system out.

The problem is the metal filler that is used over the joins pic below of metal filler.









when it first came out, the curing process for it was around 12 hours air dry, then sand it down and use bodyy filler as needed, the problem was that when the car went through the prepping process ie high build primer over joins, infa red dryed, then bake cycle in a spraybooth, as soon as it came out of the oven and the panel had cooloed down, you could see the joins straight away, so the metal filler was re-called.

All they did was change the mixing ratio of from 9:1 to 5:2 the drying process was completely changed, you now apply the metal filler, then the drying process is to infa-red it, with the lamp about 3ft away, then use a ray tech gun to check temperature of it, when its at around 50 degrees take lamp away allow to cool down, lamp is taken back further same again again upto same temp. all this really does is recreate it being baked in an oven. forcing the drying process.
with this metal filler you really need to make sure thats its mixed correctly, and dried in the correct way, we suffer no more problems doing it this way.

With your car from what you have said, you say a repair supervisor watched the process, has he done the bonding and riveting course for bmw, to me it still sounds like metal filler has either not been mixed properly or drying process wasnt used. because from what your seeing is where, your cars been primed infa red dried, then baked in an oven, because when it was painted, this filler will slighlty expand with the panel temperature of being baked, then when it cools down contracts back over time leaving you with what you are seeing now. Or did they check the mixing ratio on the metal filler as it may not be the newer mixing ratio, this will be with the instructions of the one they used if they still have it. and check if they have the bmw approved infa-red lamp for drying and a ray tech gun for measuring temperature. unfortunatley there is no real quick fix for your car, but i dont see why they wouild need to replace the quarter panel, they should just do the affected areas. what i would do is take phtos of and keep an eye on it as im sure the join will become more noticeable over time.


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## blackbmw

Andyb0127 said:


> Yes we have suffered from these problems, when bmw first brought this repair system out.
> 
> The problem is the metal filler that is used over the joins pic below of metal filler.
> 
> when it first came out, the curing process for it was around 12 hours air dry, then sand it down and use bodyy filler as needed, the problem was that when the car went through the prepping process ie high build primer over joins, infa red dryed, then bake cycle in a spraybooth, as soon as it came out of the oven and the panel had cooloed down, you could see the joins straight away, so the metal filler was re-called.
> 
> All they did was change the mixing ratio of from 9:1 to 5:2 the drying process was completely changed, you now apply the metal filler, then the drying process is to infa-red it, with the lamp about 3ft away, then use a ray tech gun to check temperature of it, when its at around 50 degrees take lamp away allow to cool down, lamp is taken back further same again again upto same temp. all this really does is recreate it being baked in an oven. forcing the drying process.
> with this metal filler you really need to make sure thats its mixed correctly, and dried in the correct way, we suffer no more problems doing it this way.
> 
> With your car from what you have said, you say a repair supervisor watched the process, has he done the bonding and riveting course for bmw, to me it still sounds like metal filler has either not been mixed properly or drying process wasnt used. because from what your seeing is where, your cars been primed infa red dried, then baked in an oven, because when it was painted, this filler will slighlty expand with the panel temperature of being baked, then when it cools down contracts back over time leaving you with what you are seeing now. Or did they check the mixing ratio on the metal filler as it may not be the newer mixing ratio, this will be with the instructions of the one they used if they still have it. and check if they have the bmw approved infa-red lamp for drying and a ray tech gun for measuring temperature. unfortunatley there is no real quick fix for your car, but i dont see why they wouild need to replace the quarter panel, they should just do the affected areas. what i would do is take phtos of and keep an eye on it as im sure the join will become more noticeable over time.


This is great info, Andy -- thanks again.

The BMW supervisor was sent by BMW headquarters in North America to supervise the repair, so I assume he is trained in bonding and riveting. The BMW repair center is only allowed to repair BMWs, uses all OEM parts and equipment, and has to follow all BMW procedures, and therefor I assume they used the approved infra-red lamp and ray tech gun for measuring temperature. Once the BMW repair center calls me back, I'll ask what mixing ratio they used for the metal filler.

It sounds like when this repair is done correctly, no seam should be visible, even in direct sunlight -- correct? (It has been about 3 months since I received my car back, and the seam has just started to become visible again). For awhile, I thought about ignoring the issue. However, if the seam becomes more visible over time (which it seems you are suggesting it will), it will really begin to bother me and I'm sure it'll impact resale value of the car if I decide to sell it.

Finally, is the repair process just to sand down the seam area and then reapply the metal filler (mixed to the correct ratio), bake, and then repaint?


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## Andyb0127

Yes they should have all the required equipment to be bmw approved, as we are bmw approved and have all the equipment. They would need it anyway as when they have a Bmw audit they will check everything they have. They should also be using bmw own make of paint known as bmw white label.
Sounds like the technician sent over should know all they relative requirements and procedures for this. 
Unfortunately if the do this again it means your rear screen and quarter window will need to be removed. Yes your correct the joins will need to be taken back to baremetal and the process done again. If its done correctly you should not be able to see any join at all. Plus you to find out if this bodyshop has had any other bmw's come back for this.


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## DOBE

Good to see this process in action mate.

Trying to explain to people this is the way that bmw's have to be repaired is hard but you have covered everything in your pics and info.

The amount of time that it takes to replace a Q-panel on a Beemer now is mad, the air drying of the filler and bond etc.

Gone now are the days when you can pull off the aperture rubber looking for signs of new panels being fitted when you have rivets staring right at you.


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## blackbmw

Andyb0127 said:


> Yes they should have all the required equipment to be bmw approved, as we are bmw approved and have all the equipment. They would need it anyway as when they have a Bmw audit they will check everything they have. They should also be using bmw own make of paint known as bmw white label.
> Sounds like the technician sent over should know all they relative requirements and procedures for this.
> Unfortunately if the do this again it means your rear screen and quarter window will need to be removed. Yes your correct the joins will need to be taken back to baremetal and the process done again. If its done correctly you should not be able to see any join at all. Plus you to find out if this bodyshop has had any other bmw's come back for this.


I'll wait for their call and then discuss the process that they used on the second repair. The repair center previously mentioned that they had one other car come back for this issue. They also previously hinted that it might be normal for the join to be visible when it was really hot outside due to the expansion/contraction of the metal filler, but I think they backed off that position after further discussion. I'll keep everyone updated on their response and how they decide to handle this situation.


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## Andyb0127

blackbmw said:


> I'll wait for their call and then discuss the process that they used on the second repair. The repair center previously mentioned that they had one other car come back for this issue. They also previously hinted that it might be normal for the join to be visible when it was really hot outside due to the expansion/contraction of the metal filler, but I think they backed off that position after further discussion. I'll keep everyone updated on their response and how they decide to handle this situation.


Good luck with it mate. Hope they get the problem sorted out for you.
If your unsure of anything or need any other advice or questions just ask mate I'll do my best to help you. :thumb:


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## squiggs

What a great thread!
Well written questions and informative answers.

Thanks lads :thumb:


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## blackbmw

Andyb0127 said:


> Good luck with it mate. Hope they get the problem sorted out for you.
> If your unsure of anything or need any other advice or questions just ask mate I'll do my best to help you. :thumb:


Andy, the help you've already provided is more than I had ever hoped for!  I will give BMW some time to discuss internally, and then give them a call next week if I don't hear anything from them. If I get any new information from BMW, I'll post it up.


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## toddy23

still sounds to me that bmw havent got it sussed if there still messing about with mixing ratio,s on the metal filler and audi done the bond on 1/4s years ago and we had the same problem the car came back twice so in the end we just welded the join never came back,just seems to me a longer process and insurances are wanting things done alot faster thats why most bodyshops have went for miricle pulls etc to try to save the 1/4s etc as insurers give you time to pull the dents out to see if you can save the panel


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## DOBE

toddy23 said:


> just seems to me a longer process and insurances are wanting things done alot faster thats why most bodyshops have went for miricle pulls etc to try to save the 1/4s etc as insurers give you time to pull the dents out to see if you can save the panel


Where I work up until about 3-4 years ago it was replace everything.

Now it's repair, repair, repair! Insurance companies wanting to save money on parts and cost cutting where they can.
The miracle pull is a great piece of kit but someone needs to tell estimators that just because it says miracle pull on the machine that it doesn't perform miracles.

Fitting cheaper panels,bumpers etc to cars over 5 years old is another headache.
I just wonder if the customer is aware of this.


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## toddy23

same as us mate we are repairing stuff thats ****ed filler in everything,even back to putting door skins on,me personally i would rather have a good genuine 2nd hand stuff rather than filler or cheap parts its a joke in our profession at the minute its gone back 20yrs


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## DOBE

toddy23 said:


> its a joke in our profession at the minute its gone back 20yrs


Yep, bloody joke.

I don't mind skinning doors etc (that's if we get one) but some of the size of repairs we do on cars 2-3 years old are pretty shocking just to save the insurance companies money with no thought about the customer. Then the painters moan about the size of repair they need to prep, we finish the repairs with 180 grit paper and they still moan. When I was serving my time 20 odd years ago all repairs were finished in 40 grit then it was passed onto the paint shop.


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## mitchelld

i want to be andys apprentice!!!!!


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## toddy23

we are going on about pas 125,whats the point having it when most bodyshops dont put panels on anymore,use cheap parts that dont fit,have to glue headlights back together,insurance companys are ripping off customers big style with what price there paying to insure ther cars,we are a pas 125 bodyshop that means basically all repairs are done to a very high standard,,,,,,,load of ****** you dont repair stuff thats ****ed you put new genuine parts on


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## DOBE

toddy23 said:


> we are going on about pas 125,whats the point having it when most bodyshops dont put panels on anymore,use cheap parts that dont fit,have to glue headlights back together,insurance companys are ripping off customers big style with what price there paying to insure ther cars,we are a pas 125 bodyshop that means basically all repairs are done to a very high standard,,,,,,,load of ****** you dont repair stuff thats ****ed you put new genuine parts on


Think we work for the same company mate!


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## Andyb0127

You mean repairing things like this.


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## Cthrower

Andyb0127 said:


> You mean repairing things like this.


If insurance companies are trying to save money, wouldn't it be cheaper to replace stuff like that? Surely it must cost more in labour to fix something like that, than it would to replace and respray?!


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## Andyb0127

Cthrower said:


> If insurance companies are trying to save money, wouldn't it be cheaper to replace stuff like that? Surely it must cost more in labour to fix something like that, than it would to replace and respray?!


This is the way insurance company's are going, they would rather repair than replace now. Yes labour is higher to repair these but there quite happy to pay fr you to repair them. But then that's my job what I trained to do, know matter how much i moan about size of repairs it's not going to make any difference. I hear it at work wen they moan about it, but like I say are you a panel beater or panel fitter, old school panel beaters used to repair things like this no matter what the marque of car was, fortunately I was trained by an old school panel beater who was highly skilled. So repairs like this don't really phase me. At the end of it it's seeing the finished repair.


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## DOBE

Andyb0127 said:


> You mean repairing things like this.


Exactly like this, at least with Audi metal you have half a chance of getting it out without too much stretching. If it were a jap car etc it would be a whole different story.


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## DOBE

Cthrower said:


> If insurance companies are trying to save money, wouldn't it be cheaper to replace stuff like that? Surely it must cost more in labour to fix something like that, than it would to replace and respray?!


As Andy said repairing that Audi qaurter would be cheaper to fix.

If a new one was to be fitted then you have strip time and the price of the panel to add to the bill.

Personally if that was my car I'd prefer it to be repaired as you won't be replacing the factory sealer and the "candle" like cavity wax that German car manufacturers use.


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## Andyb0127

Few more pics of the Audi through repair stages.


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## geoff.mac

some talent you've got there Andy, very impressive to watch a great tradesman working his trade , love watching old school tradesmen, I always end up open mouthed when its finished as to how they managed to achieve such levels of finish. Keep it up buddy :thumb:


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## ABC Detailing

Very interesting mate, I wouldn't be happy knowing that has been repaired and not replaced though.


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## Andyb0127

chapppers11 said:


> Very interesting mate, I wouldn't be happy knowing that has been repaired and not replaced though.


Fully understand what your saying. This was actually a customers request that he wanted it repaired, rather than replaced.


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## toddy23

some repairs pop out with one good smack some are a bit trickier,but even on repairs like this we dont get a lot of labour time to sort it,at the minute this trade is a joke as with me i hate being rushed we get repairs like this that comes in at 8am and wanted back for 5pm thats repaired,primed,prepped,painted and polished and still has to look mint


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## toddy23

and thats the thing mate alot of customers are thinking there getting new panels on and there getting things knocked out and filled


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## angelsguardian

chapppers11 said:


> Very interesting mate, I wouldn't be happy knowing that has been repaired and not replaced though.


Rather have it repaired by an artist than replaced by a monkey though


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## Andyb0127

toddy23 said:


> some repairs pop out with one good smack some are a bit trickier,but even on repairs like this we dont get a lot of labour time to sort it,at the minute this trade is a joke as with me i hate being rushed we get repairs like this that comes in at 8am and wanted back for 5pm thats repaired,primed,prepped,painted and polished and still has to look mint


If that's the case then you should speak to the estimators, as there obviously either holding hours back or not estimating it properly. You gave me that Audi at 8am and told me its going back at 5am my answer would be no chance, you either want it done properly or not at all. Must be lucky where I work because our manager understands how long these things take. And the estimators will always come and get one of the panel beaters if there unsure if it will repair and ask our advice. It's not the trade that's a joke it's down to the people that run the bodyshop making sure things are done right and customers being kept up to date what's happening with there car. Even tho customers can use our bodyshops website and put there registration in and it will tell them where the car is ie panel, paint, strip, refit, polish, valet. So we can't hide anything anyway.


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## Andyb0127

toddy23 said:


> and thats the thing mate alot of customers are thinking there getting new panels on and there getting things knocked out and filled


Not neccesarily depends how honest the bodyshop is. We inform our customers of what the insurance company has said as to regards repairing there car. You'll get more respect from a customer by being honest with them.


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## toddy23

i know there holding times back and yes we just laugh at them when they say crazy stuff and how do you say to a customer where gluing your plastic lugs back on your headlight,they just asume there getting a new light which they should 100%,im a spray painter and i feel sorry for our panel beaters as some of the stuff there repairing is a joke but they are good at what they do and all the repairs are finished off good for painters but i keep saying in 12 mnths time with all that filler the repairs will show.what primer you using andy is it polyester spray filler


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## Andyb0127

toddy23 said:


> i know there holding times back and yes we just laugh at them when they say crazy stuff and how do you say to a customer where gluing your plastic lugs back on your headlight,they just asume there getting a new light which they should 100%,im a spray painter and i feel sorry for our panel beaters as some of the stuff there repairing is a joke but they are good at what they do and all the repairs are finished off good for painters but i keep saying in 12 mnths time with all that filler the repairs will show.what primer you using andy is it polyester spray filler


No we don't use polyester spray filler, our finishing skim will be dolphin glaze. We then use Teroson quick check paint simulator, to check the qualit of the repair. We're on Glasurit 90 line and Glasurit primer.


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## phazer

Excellent thread, I'd heard panels were being glued but have never seen it so thanks for sharing.

Good skills on show too :thumb: fancy making a habit of showing the more obscure or difficult repairs if you have time?


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## Andyb0127

phazer said:


> Excellent thread, I'd heard panels were being glued but have never seen it so thanks for sharing.
> 
> Good skills on show too :thumb: fancy making a habit of showing the more obscure or difficult repairs if you have time?


Thanks mate. 
Not a problem. I'll try an take some photos of repairs as i go and post them up for you :thumb:

From being damaged like this.

















To being repaired and painted looking like this.


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## andyrst

love your work andy your standard of work is amazing


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## toddy23

yes i used 90 line about 15yrs ago,if i recall Glasurit primer had the small bottle of catlist and was 4 or 5 -1 which you need for the repairs we are doing at the min and yes the guide coat helps on the repairs,we have sikkens and a trade sceme(max myer) for cash jobs,,,,,,,,,i used to love the Glasurit 22 line straight gloss the finish you got was awsome,my boss is going down the root of restoring classic cars well old escorts,this treads going off track a bit


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## kh904

Great thread, i'm finding this really interesting for some reason!


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## toddy23

http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh277/toddydal/P1020968.jpg
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http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh277/toddydal/DSCF0962.jpg
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http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh277/toddydal/DSCF0965.jpg
http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh277/toddydal/P1000094.jpg
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http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh277/toddydal/P1000111.jpg

just a few pictures of mk 1 escort for all you escort fans


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## davyp

Very interesting thread. I had to do an estimate this week on a 07 535d, New back panel and back bumper. 

We dont currently have the punch riviter needed to carry out the fitting of the BMW panels so had to price it from our local BMW dealer. 
We were quoted 3,100 euro plus vat for the tool, that comes to 3,828.50 euro with vat. 

We had to turn away the job as we are just a small bodyshop and cant afford to fork out that much at the moment on a tool we might not use again for a long time, up to now we haven't had to do a job which needed those tools.

How much are BMW charging for this tool in England?


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## Andyb0127

davyp said:


> Very interesting thread. I had to do an estimate this week on a 07 535d, New back panel and back bumper.
> 
> We dont currently have the punch riviter needed to carry out the fitting of the BMW panels so had to price it from our local BMW dealer.
> We were quoted 3,100 euro plus vat for the tool, that comes to 3,828.50 euro with vat.
> 
> We had to turn away the job as we are just a small bodyshop and cant afford to fork out that much at the moment on a tool we might not use again for a long time, up to now we haven't had to do a job which needed those tools.
> 
> How much are BMW charging for this tool in England?


We paid around £3500 for our punch riviter, but also had to buy bmw approved spot welder, mig welder, mig braze welder, and all the other tools we had to buy ran into thousands buying all stuff we needed.


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## davyp

Andyb0127 said:


> We paid around £3500 for our punch riviter, but also had to buy bmw approved spot welder, mig welder, mig braze welder, and all the other tools we had to buy ran into thousands buying all stuff we needed.


Thanks for the reply Andy. We have a mig braze welder with about 4 years, slowly building up our tools but the body trade is on its knees in Ireland. It will be some time before we invest in the punch riviter I think.


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## blackbmw

Update: The official word that I've received through the BMW certified collision center is that the metal filler does expand when it gets hot outside (about 80F), making the join slightly visible. However, the filler is supposed to shrink back to normal once the car cools down and the join should disappear. I indicated that I park in an underground garage that is always about 70F, and that I can see the join when I leave for work in the morning. BMW is looking further into the issue. I'll provide more updates as I hear back.


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## Andyb0127

blackbmw said:


> Update: The official word that I've received through the BMW certified collision center is that the metal filler does expand when it gets hot outside (about 80F), making the join slightly visible. However, the filler is supposed to shrink back to normal once the car cools down and the join should disappear. I indicated that I park in an underground garage that is always about 70F, and that I can see the join when I leave for work in the morning. BMW is looking further into the issue. I'll provide more updates as I hear back.


I find it hard to believe that they think it will shrink back to normal. To me sounds more like a get out clause. There is definatly an underlying problem with this metal filler. They have changed the mixing ratios twice, to me i don't think it's been developed properly.


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## ZIGGYNO1

Gr8 read :thumb:


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## enc

Nice work on the Audi quarter Andy. How many hours in that ?


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## Aaran

Andyb0127 said:


> I find it hard to believe that they think it will shrink back to normal. To me sounds more like a get out clause. There is definatly an underlying problem with this metal filler. They have changed the mixing ratios twice, to me i don't think it's been developed properly.


its conflicting thermal expansion rates. and its common as feck in the states where you can get extreme seasonal differences. (see it crop up all the time on the u.s hotrod and painting boards)

metal expands when hot, unfortunately anything other than metal thats not the same thickness (even other metal) can show up if the temp varys enough to cause an issue between the 2 materials. there are threads regards to filler showing up only in hot weather, sanding marks, even on TIG welded panels where there is no thick mig weld line it can sometimes crop up and show through the finish.

part of the joys of body work, even lead has a different thermal expansion rate to steel and that can also show up through a repair in certain extreme temps (hot of cold etc)

that ali filler i used to use was a ******* for it, in the summer it still pokes its head up on a few bits where i used it on my crx (its fogiving as its bright white) but i can still make it out. normal filler does not seem to do to badly but im assuming the BMW stuff is also a glue and aids in the bonding so i doubt you can just replace it with that


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