# Wheel refurb primer question



## Gixxer6

I'm busy refurbing one of my alloy wheels and have just applied the etching primer and noticed that it states on the can that I need to wait 24 hours for the solvents to dissolve before applying a primer. I was hoping that I could apply a basecoat on top of the etching primer. Is it really necessary to apply a primer on top of etching primer?

I'm using E-Tech etching primer and noticed that U-Pol Acid #8 states:

Under normal circumstances it is not necessary to flat ACID #8 and can be directly overcoated. ACID #8may be overcoated directly with top coat. However, if the repair requires additional build primer filler should be used before topcoat is applied.

And then I read this:

"Once applied the Etch Primer needs to be left to dry, both to allow the etching process to work and to allow the evaporation of the solvents contained
within the paint.
All Etch Primers need to be left for a minimum of 24 hours at a temperature of 18 - 20 degrees celcius to dry properly.
Whilst this is the minimum it is advisable to allow significantly longer *before applying topcoats*.
More paint finishes are ruined by the application of paint over Etch Primer that is still drying than almost anything else."

Any tips or advice welcome 

TIA


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## Ford8loke

Gixxer6 said:


> I'm busy refurbing one of my alloy wheels and have just applied the etching primer and noticed that it states on the can that I need to wait 24 hours for the solvents to dissolve before applying a primer. I was hoping that I could apply a basecoat on top of the etching primer. Is it really necessary to apply a primer on top of etching primer?
> 
> I'm using E-Tech etching primer and noticed that U-Pol Acid #8 states:
> 
> Under normal circumstances it is not necessary to flat ACID #8 and can be directly overcoated. ACID #8may be overcoated directly with top coat. However, if the repair requires additional build primer filler should be used before topcoat is applied.
> 
> And then I read this:
> 
> "Once applied the Etch Primer needs to be left to dry, both to allow the etching process to work and to allow the evaporation of the solvents contained
> 
> within the paint.
> 
> All Etch Primers need to be left for a minimum of 24 hours at a temperature of 18 - 20 degrees celcius to dry properly.
> 
> Whilst this is the minimum it is advisable to allow significantly longer *before applying topcoats*.
> 
> More paint finishes are ruined by the application of paint over Etch Primer that is still drying than almost anything else."
> 
> Any tips or advice welcome
> 
> TIA


First thing I'll ask is where are you spraying? Is it in a temperature stable environment.

Secondly how are you applying the etch? Full wet coats or light dusty coats?

Thirdly what grade abrasive did you finish your prep work with prior to etching?


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## Gixxer6

Ford8loke said:


> First thing I'll ask is where are you spraying? Is it in a temperature stable environment.
> 
> Secondly how are you applying the etch? Full wet coats or light dusty coats?
> 
> Thirdly what grade abrasive did you finish your prep work with prior to etching?


Thanks for replying, here are the answers to your questions:

I'm spraying the wheel in my garage and I'm planning to leave the wheel in there overnight.

I have applied the etch with light dusty coats, two coats so far. The 2nd coat was applied after 10 mins as per the instructions.

The wheels had two spots of corrosion with paint bubbling, I sanded back to the metal in those areas. The rest of the wheel was sanded with 240 grit, I sanded down to the basecoat and probably original primer in some areas. Then I used 400 grit sandpaper, washed the wheel, dried and masked up for priming.

Should I bring the wheel into the house?


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## Gixxer6

Been reading some guides and the general suggestion is that the etch primer is used for any bar metal areas and then a normal primer is used (or possibly a filler primer) before the colour coat. 

My etch primer coats are dry and possibly thick since I used the etch as a normal primer. Debating if the etch should be sanded down slightly before I apply the primer/filler primer.


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## Ford8loke

Etch primer is for bare metal to help promote adhesion of the subsequent primer surfacer/filler and following colour and lacquer coats.

Primer surfacer/filler is for filling imperfections left from prep work and to help level the surface ready for flatting prior to the base/colour coat.

The usual system is:

Etch

Primer surfacer/filler

Base/colour

Clear coat



There's varying opinion on how etch should be applied. Some say only a very light coat should be applied, so light that you can still see through it to the substrate.

Others say to apply like a normal primer like you have.

24hrs seems an excessive drying time for normal conditions I.e constant room temp 22 degrees. But if your garage is cold/damp then stick to the 24hrs or bring it indoors. 

Flatting down the etch will help especially if it's been applied a little heavy.

Are you using dry or wet sand paper? Personally I find dry a little harsh for intricate work like wheels.

The grades you've used for your prep are fine.

What colour are you spraying the wheel btw?


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## Gixxer6

Thanks again Ford8loke.

I've posted a pic of the wheel below, this is after I have applied the etch primer.
I have various grades of sandpaper, but so far I've only used the 240 and the 400. I have 800 and 1000 and am planning to wet sand if necessary. Just a but worried about adding additional primer as there are some areas where the original paint is thicker (near the bolt holes for example) as the area was a bit hard to sand and get into the tight area.

Do you advise to give the wheels a light coat of surface primer before the colour coat, or take a gamble and apply the colour coat over the etch?

I'm hoping to get this right as it's taken a long time for the paint preparation 

The wheels will be painted silver.


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## Sicskate

How smooth does it feel to touch? 

Personally I'd have only spot etch primed the bad bits, then grey primed the rest. 

I also don't bother flatting the primer down, never needed to really. 
If it was rough then I would. 

If you need primer, the range sell highcoat for a reasonable price.


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## Ford8loke

Hello again Gixxer6.

I have always been taught never to apply base directly to etch. Now looking at the pic of your wheel it seems like you have achieved nice even coverage but that's through the screen of my smartphone so obviously I can't see in finer detail.

To be on the safe side I would lightly flat the etch with the 400.

Then I would apply 2-3 good full coats of primer filler and allow to fully dry.

You should then have plenty of primer on the wheel ready to be flatted back to leave a smooth level surface ready for your base coat. This stage is very important and fundamental to how good a finish will be achieved.

For flatting down the primer filler I would use 1000 grade wet and dry pre soaked in soapy water.

Another tip before flatting the primer filler is to use a guide coat.

This can be done by dusting over a very light coat of colour e.g satin black prior to flatting.

This "guide coat" will help you to see where you have flatted the primer back sufficiently and areas that will need more attention.



What clear coat will you be using?


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## Gixxer6

Sicskate said:


> How smooth does it feel to touch?
> 
> Personally I'd have only spot etch primed the bad bits, then grey primed the rest.
> 
> I also don't bother flatting the primer down, never needed to really.
> If it was rough then I would.
> 
> If you need primer, the range sell highcoat for a reasonable price.


The finish is dull but not silky smooth, it feels similar to touching a very fine grade of sandpaper, but coverage overall is smooth.

I'll get some primer to apply over the etch, thanks for the tip on The Range, there's one that's close to me.


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## Gixxer6

Ford8loke said:


> Hello again Gixxer6.
> 
> I have always been taught never to apply base directly to etch. Now looking at the pic of your wheel it seems like you have achieved nice even coverage but that's through the screen of my smartphone so obviously I can't see in finer detail.
> 
> To be on the safe side I would lightly flat the etch with the 400.
> 
> Then I would apply 2-3 good full coats of primer filler and allow to fully dry.
> 
> You should then have plenty of primer on the wheel ready to be flatted back to leave a smooth level surface ready for your base coat. This stage is very important and fundamental to how good a finish will be achieved.
> 
> For flatting down the primer filler I would use 1000 grade wet and dry pre soaked in soapy water.
> 
> Another tip before flatting the primer filler is to use a guide coat.
> 
> This can be done by dusting over a very light coat of colour e.g satin black prior to flatting.
> 
> This "guide coat" will help you to see where you have flatted the primer back sufficiently and areas that will need more attention.
> 
> What clear coat will you be using?


I found the instructions online for the self etch primer I'm using:

E-Tech recommend you apply 2 thin coats allowing 10 minutes between cots to dry to a tacky film. 
Leave the Self-Etch Primer to completely dry for at least 24 hours to allow etching process to work and ensure that the solvents contained in it completly evaporate.

After use the turn the can upside down, spray until the nozzle is clear or remove the nozzle and soak in thinners.

After 24 hours drying the curing process should be complete.
Only when the Self-Etch Primer is completly dry can you then lightly sand it with a very fine abrasive paper.
- DO NOT use any water as this may impede the acid etching process.
- DRY SAND ONLY and use a tack rag to remove any dust or debris. 
_The surface is now primed. However, for increased top coat adhesion and a high gloss finish E-Tech recommend that you apply a layer/s of E-Tech Technik Repaired Surface Primer, Part No. ER00109_
The surface is now ready to have the top coat of paint applied. On smooth surfaces like stainless steel and galvanised metals you must sand (key) the area to be etched before applying the Self-Etch Primer to ensure good adhesion.

I'll be using the E-Tech alloy wheel clear lacquer: http://www.t4srus.co.uk/e-tech-alloy-wheel-lacquer-400ml-2225-p.asp

Thinking about this advice: "to achieve the best possible finish E-Tech recommends that you use an abrasive paper similar to 1200 grit wet and dry, and plenty of water to gently flat the base colour of the wheel to a matt finish. The lacquer will not adhere very well to gloss paint and a better result can be achieved by spraying the lacquer on to a matt surface. "

I'm hoping that sanding the colour coat won't make the final result dull, but I also want to make sure that the clear coat binds well to the colour coat.

I'm using the E-Tech Silver alloy wheel paint: http://www.t4srus.co.uk/e-tech-alloy-wheel-paint-in-silver-400ml-1423-p.asp
I'll do a spot test to check if the paint is metallic or more of a matt silver.


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## Sicskate

How are you suppose to clean it without getting it wet or using a tack rag??

Puzzles me sometimes, I'm assuming they are just covering their backs with ott instructions.


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## Ford8loke

Do not sand the colour coat!!!!!

When you apply the clear coat it will magnify the sanding marks.

It's important to apply metallic base coat lightly until full coverage. Allow solvents to flash off between coats, allow the final coat to dry and then apply the clear coat. 

Do not touch the base coat I any way before applying the clear coat.


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## Ford8loke

Stick to dry sanding the etch with the 400, then clean off with panel wipe and lint free cloth.

Then apply primer filler as discussed and allow to fully dry.

Once dry move onto wet sanding with the 1000/1200 your choice.

Once your happy with the flatting dry the wheel off and then panel wipe followed by a tac rag as mentioned by sickskate.

Sickskate is also right in saying the e tech instructions are rather generic and ott!


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## Sicskate

Everyone will have their own methods and techniques. 

Personally I've never used a filler primer on aerosol jobs, I just prep from 120 (if needed) 240,320 and sometimes 500. 

Then scotch, prime with etch on the bare metal (if needed), wet 800 padded. 

Then clean, tack, grey prime, base and clear. 

Take a look at the 1hour wheel I did, you may need to search for it though.


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## Ford8loke

If using aerosols I always go for something labelled as a high build primer because I'll always be flatting it down afterwards. Mipa do a good aerosol product called "rapid filler self etching primer" which as the name suggests is a high build self etching primer that can be directly over coated. Just to clarify When I say primer filler I'm referring to high build primer not polyester spray filler.


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## Gixxer6

Thanks for the tips and advice and patience, much appreciated ford8loke and sicskate.

I got some Hycote primer from The Range. Gave the wheel a light sand with some 400 grit sandpaper, the surface is looking smooth and dull, ready for priming now. l'll prime the wheel tomorrow as I never had any time today.

I found the one hour refurb thread you mentioned sicskate, some useful info in there, here it is in case anyone else needs it: http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=339164

I was going to ask if it's worth using a heatgun on the wheels and I see in your thread you mentioned that you use it for the primer and base coat stages. I have seen some videos where the wheel is placed under a heat lamp after painting, is that to speed up the drying process or does it help the paint cure better? I have a heatgun and also an Infra Red lamp, are they worth using?
I take it that the clear coat should be left alone to dry naturally, no heatgun or lamp should be used?


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## Ford8loke

If your in a hurry to finish the job then you could use heat but just be careful. Too much heat and it will bubble and you'll be back to square one.


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## Gixxer6

I've sprayed the base coat and overall coverage looks good. However, there seems to be some paint overspray/furryness on some parts of the wheel. For example if I sprayed one of the spokes, then there is some paint overspray onto the surface inline with/behind that spoke. It's just a slightly rougher finish, if I look closely in certain angles it looks like very fine specks of paint. 
Would this be an issue, or would the appearance improve once the clear coat is applied?


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## Ford8loke

Hello again Gixxer6. This weekend I sprayed an front grill surround ford machine silver. I was finding it quite difficult to get a nice even appearance with the base and ended up having to drop coat the surround 3-4 times until I was happy with the finish.

A technique I got taught when spraying wheels was to not worry about trying to hit every angle of the surface with the base coat.

I was told first start with the face of the wheel treating it like a flat panel keeping the coats light.

Then hit the outer rim with the base starting at one point and working my way round to meet back where I started.



And then returning again to the face.



This process would be repeated until the wheel was evenly coated.

What technique are you using regarding positioning of the spray can?

And also what position is the wheel in when your spraying?


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## Gixxer6

Hi Fordbloke and thanks again for the tips.

I painted the whole wheel, including the barrel as that was where the corrosion was. In hindsight I should have just tackled this area, possibly a local spot repair.

I started off painting the inside of the barrel with the colour coat and doing so caused some overspray on the "face" side of the wheel but I thought I'd just do a light coat or two and then move on to the face of the wheel. I started with light dust coat starting with the outside rim and worked my way around, then sprayed each of the spokes but also painted the sides of the spokes and ensured that I covered every corner, I guess somewhat of a criss-cross pattern which explains the overspray.

The wheel was laying flat with the face up when I finished.
When spraying the inside of the barrel I initially had the wheel laying flat (face down) then sprayed around the outer lip then stood the wheel up to spray the inside of the barrel.

The wheel looks good so far, it's just in certain light if I move the wheel then I can see that the paint isn't flat/consistent, I can see a very slight difference in light reflection. 
Maybe I'm being OCD 
I'm going to go take a look at the wheel again.



Ford8loke said:


> Hello again Gixxer6. This weekend I sprayed an front grill surround ford machine silver. I was finding it quite difficult to get a nice even appearance with the base and ended up having to drop coat the surround 3-4 times until I was happy with the finish.
> 
> A technique I got taught when spraying wheels was to not worry about trying to hit every angle of the surface with the base coat.
> 
> I was told first start with the face of the wheel treating it like a flat panel keeping the coats light.
> 
> Then hit the outer rim with the base starting at one point and working my way round to meet back where I started.
> 
> This process would be repeated until the wheel was evenly coated.
> 
> What technique are you using regarding positioning of the spray can?
> 
> And also what position is the wheel in when your spraying?


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## Ford8loke

Could you add another picture after base coat.

You mentioned when spraying the face of the wheel it's lying flat on the ground, face side up.

Spraying an horizontal surface with aerosol can isn't a great idea imo. 

Whenever spray painting the can/gun needs to be held at the same angle as the surface being sprayed.

This isn't much of an issue when using a gun. But if you hold an aerosol at 90 degree/horizontaly it will most likely start to splutter and spit blobs of paint. 

Try not to hold the can at any more than a 45degree angle.

When painting the face of the wheel try to prop it up near to vertical.

All these factors should help to achieve the even finish needed.


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## Gixxer6

That makes sense, thanks for the tips. You're right about the splattering, I noticed that the paint started to splatter a bit when the spray can wasn't held upright. I placed the wheel flat as I viewed some refurb videos on YouTube and noticed that most videos had the wheel removed and placed on a flat surface

The paint seems a bit better today, I had the wheel indoors overnight near the heater. I've posted a picture below (no resize  but at least it makes it easy to see close up)


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## Gixxer6

I've spayed the clear lacquer on the wheel, started with the inside barrel first with two coats (15 mins between coats) and then moved on to the face of the wheel. I sprayed the wheel face with 3 coats of clear lacquer (15 mins between coats) starting with a light dust coat and making sure not to apply the clear coat too thick. I propped the wheel up at an angle and turned the wheel between coats to try and get even coverage. 
Looking at the wheel in natural light, it looks like the clear coat isn't thick enough, I don't have a glossy/glassy finish. I'm thinking that it could do with another coat or two of clear coat but the problem is that I don't have any clear coat left . I'm not sure about using a clear coat from a different manufacturer or should I try and stick to the same brand/manufacturer? Is it ok to apply another coat or two of clear lacquer in a few days or is it best applied when slightly tacky? 
If I should apply another or two of clear coat in a few days is it best to sand the existing clear coat with a very fine sandpaper like 1500 + ?

Here's a pic below of the wheel with clear coat applied:


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## Ford8loke

You need to be brave with the clear coat. Starting with one light coat then followed almost immediately after with a full wet coat. Add another 2 wet coats with a short drying time in-between.

There's a fine line between the clear being applied heavy enough and being applied to heavy.

With regards to is it it ok to use a different brand of lacquer yes it should be. But try to make sure its the same kind of lacquer e.g Acrylic, PU, etc etc.

If you were to rub it down before applying more lacquer I'd be tempted to use something like a copper scotch pad which is very fine and normally used for blending in repairs.


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## Gixxer6

I've read the following thread: http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum...screwed-up-my-clear-coat-repair-thoughts.html 
and it mentions that if the clear coat is applied too far away, the spray partially dries before hitting the surface which could be the case with my wheel. I was worried about applying the paint too thick and avoid runs that I might have sprayed too far away.


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## Ford8loke

Gixxer6 said:


> I've read the following thread: http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum...screwed-up-my-clear-coat-repair-thoughts.html
> and it mentions that if the clear coat is applied too far away, the spray partially dries before hitting the surface which could be the case with my wheel. I was worried about applying the paint too thick and avoid runs that I might have sprayed too far away.


Yes this describes the paint fault

"dry spray"

It might be a good idea to have a practice on a test panel with the lacquer so you can gain confidence in applying it heavy enough.

When you get it right it should look thick and glass like. That's the best I can describe it.

You'll need to take note on how far from the panel you are and what speed you move across it.

Could you send a pic of the nozzle on the can of lacquer you used.


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## Gixxer6

Ford8loke said:


> Yes this describes the paint fault
> 
> "dry spray"
> 
> It might be a good idea to have a practice on a test panel with the lacquer so you can gain confidence in applying it heavy enough.
> 
> When you get it right it should look thick and glass like. That's the best I can describe it.
> 
> You'll need to take note on how far from the panel you are and what speed you move across it.
> 
> Could you send a pic of the nozzle on the can of lacquer you used.


Thanks again buddy, really appreciate the tips and help. I've ordered some new lacquer. One thing I noticed is that the lacquer I used was very thin, even in places that I passed on my 3rd coat never really had a wet look.

I've posted a pic of the nozzle below:


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## Ford8loke

Sorry for the late reply. Try to use a nozzle like this.










This kind of nozzle mimics the fan pattern of a spray gun and helps with applying wetter coats.

The nozzle you show in your pic produces a round cone spray pattern. Not great for larger areas.


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## SadlyDistracted

Just curious, 
On the priming why did no one mention epoxy?- I thought that this is one of the best bare surface / corrosion preventative primers that can be used, be it on steel, galvanized, aluminium or even plastics?

?


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## Ford8loke

SadlyDistracted said:


> Just curious,
> 
> On the priming why did no one mention epoxy?- I thought that this is one of the best bare surface / corrosion preventative primers that can be used, be it on steel, galvanized, aluminium or even plastics?
> 
> ?


Old habits die hard! That's why no mention of epoxy😉

Had the op had use of a spray gun and was painting large area of bare metal then I would of suggested it.

Not sure about epoxy on bare plastic?


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