# What to replace Menzerna SF4500 with?



## Flakey (May 5, 2013)

I absolutely love working with a Menzerna SF4500 ( also known as P85RD ) but I am almost out of stock and thinking of trying something different this time.
The paint is medium hard so I tend to prefer DAT polishes as they tell me when to stop unlike SMAT which can be accidentally over worked by a newbie like me.

I need just slightly more cut than SF4500 and something that can darken the paint a bit rather than making it extremely glossy.

I am confused between Carpro Reflect, Scholl S30, Menzerna SF4000 and Meguair's 205.


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## Steampunk (Aug 11, 2011)

Flakey said:


> I need just slightly more cut than SF4500 and something that can darken the paint a bit rather than making it extremely glossy.


What you describe is Scholl Concepts S30+ Nano-Compound. Scholl's polishes all darken more than Menzerna, and S30+ lies more inline with SF4000 in terms of cut level (S40 is Scholl's equivalent of SF4500).

CarPro Reflect is another excellent finishing polish in this cut-range, but its colour-tone tends to be more neutral, with a glassier finish if that is a look you like.

Hopefully this helps...

Steampunk


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## Wolfstein (Jan 18, 2011)

I've tried both #205 and S30. While both are very nice and usable, I do prefer S30.
I do think #205 has a hair more cut to it. But then again with problematic surfaces I've found S30 to finish down a bit more nicely giving hologram free result more easely. S30 has some cut to it too and with a good variety of pads I've never had any problems with it either. And as long as you finiah down your compounding well, you won't most likely need any more cut than what S30 offers.
I've done a few softer surfaces in 2-step with S30 alone and suitable pads, so it is quite versatile.

#205 has been a very good second step product after compounding removing nicely everything compounding left behind, but on very very soft surfaces has too much cut to it and can cause a problem.
Not knowing much of the other two, I'd choose S30 from these two I know of.

And for the very last jewelling and extremely soft surfaces try Scholl S40, that's a beauty for jewelling. I haven't tried much of anything as nice as that, but it doesn't have almost any cut to it so it's not suitable for a second step in most cases :thumbup:


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## suspal (Dec 29, 2011)

I'd also Include 3m Ultrafina amongst what's been mentioned above :thumb:


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## pete001 (Dec 21, 2006)

Nano-Tech Super Gloss would be a good alternative to Menz FF 85RD very similar in cut and appearance to 85rd,a very worthy alternative IMO :thumb:.


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## ronwash (Mar 26, 2011)

Scholl s40,its brilliant.


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## caledonia (Sep 13, 2008)

From what you have mentioned in your post and considering you are very comfortable with what you already use. The next logical step with the menz range would be sf4000. It certainly has more flexibility as in levels of cut and ways of working. It is more than capable of being rejuvenated, Increasing the length of cutting and jeweling stage. Also benefits from extended working time and low machine speed. With the variation is cut between a finish pad and a polishing pad, with out the fear or induced marring.

If yo are looking at total flexibility then that land totally at the feet of 205. Look on it as a manual gear box in a car. Where you decided when to step up and cut harder as well as to refine. It can be a time saver as you only need to work till the defects present have been removed. Before backing back the speed and starting to refine. 

S40 Delivers much the same results as the a four mentioned sf4000. But reflex has a similar cut to sf4500. Well from my results anyhow.

HTH
Gordon.


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## Flakey (May 5, 2013)

Steampunk said:


> CarPro Reflect is another excellent finishing polish in this cut-range, but its colour-tone tends to be more neutral, with a glassier finish if that is a look you like.


How would you rate the cut from Reflect, same as SF4000 or SF4500?



Steampunk said:


> Hopefully this helps...
> Steampunk


You should stop writing that in all your responses as I have never read a single response from you that wasn't helpful. :thumb:



Steampunk said:


> What you describe is Scholl Concepts S30+ Nano-Compound. Scholl's polishes all darken more than Menzerna, and S30+ lies more inline with SF4000 in terms of cut level (S40 is Scholl's equivalent of SF4500).


While I was planning to get S30 to replace SF4500, I am getting a really good offer on Carpro Reflect. The other thing is that I have some S20 Blue that I haven't tried yet.

I plan to try the following this time:

1. Try S30/Reflect on Black Hex Pad
2. If there are still any imperfections, try S20 Blue on Scholl Orange Foam pad
3. Finish with S30/Reflect on Black Hex Pad


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## Ebbe J (Jun 18, 2008)

Have a look at Sonax Perfect Finish.


Kind regards,

Ebbe


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## Porta (Jan 3, 2007)

As said buy prevoius posters.

Scholl Concepts: S30 
Meguiars: #205
Sonax: Perfect finish, Nano polish or maybee some products fromtheir new line "EX" wich is made for dual action polishers?
Menzerna: PO106FA aka SF4000

I, myself, was a long time Menzerna user but nowadays I mostly use Sonax Perfect finish since I love it. Easy to use: spreads nicely, great working time; you can work it very long if you want or short if you want, delivers superb gloss and is also very easy to wipe off.
Its even easier to wipe off then #205 wich is very easy to remove.

Scholl Concepts S30+ is in the same league as #205 and PO106FA regarding cut, ie they are a slightly more aggressive then SF4500 who is a dedicated finishing polish. All say that #205 is super flexible since it's SMAT but I promise that S30+ and PO106FA are all very flexible. If you are using S30+ with a wool pad you can remove some serious paint defects and then you can just switch pad and use a polishing pad such as Hex white and you will get a very nice finish. The same with SF4000 and Sonax Perfect finish - they are all very good at this. So, don't fool your self that #205 is the only medium polish who is flexible. And I must also say that I don´t find #205 to be harder than use than the other polishes. DAT or SMAT: they are just polishes and a lot of the accronyms are _more_ or _less_ marketing.

All of the above polishes would fit just perfect in your arsenal.


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## Steampunk (Aug 11, 2011)

Flakey said:


> How would you rate the cut from Reflect, same as SF4000 or SF4500?
> 
> You should stop writing that in all your responses as I have never read a single response from you that wasn't helpful. :thumb:
> 
> ...


I'm always happy to be of assistance... 

Subjectively, I would place Reflect closer to SF4000, myself. As Caledonia mentioned, Menzerna's longer working time gives it more flexibility in terms of how it is worked; you have plenty of time to play with it if you want to. Reflect's working time is far shorter and more 'fixed' by comparison, but like-for-like I find this, SF4000, and S30+ very similar in terms of cutting potential.

If you want to learn more about Reflect, you can also check out my review on the product that I wrote in early December: http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=324901. It certainly is an interesting polish, and whilst it doesn't supplant the rest of the finishing polishes in my arsenal (Each brings something different to the table which I enjoy, and find useful in different situations.), I do find it to be a very good addition... The key is in finding the right product for your individual application, and learning how to get the best from it.

I do not know what kind of defects you are facing, but your plan sounds reasonable. Your combination with S20 Blue should finish out superbly well, but following up with S30+ or Reflect on a finishing pad should crispen the finish a bit further still.

Hopefully this helps (Can't stop myself  ), and if you have any more questions please feel free to ask...

Steampunk


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## Flakey (May 5, 2013)

Thanks steampunk. 
It is very helpful to know that Reflect has a shorter working time compared to SF4000. It is also good to know that Menzerna polishes usually have a long working time. What about Scholl polishes, and S20/S30 in particular? How does the work time compare to Menzerna?


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## pawlik (May 16, 2011)

Using a lot of polishes,but for me, the best darkening effect gives menz FF3000, its really not new product from menz, but for flat black color (not metallic) is my choice. S40 gives dark/wet effect too, but with less cut. 3M Ultrafina is good finishing polish, by cut I'd say in the middle of FF and S40. S30 for me the best "flake pop booster" I ever try, so if your paint is metallic I recommend S30 if no FF3000.


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## Steampunk (Aug 11, 2011)

Flakey said:


> Thanks steampunk.
> It is very helpful to know that Reflect has a shorter working time compared to SF4000. It is also good to know that Menzerna polishes usually have a long working time. What about Scholl polishes, and S20/S30 in particular? How does the work time compare to Menzerna?


With my DA I can work Menzerna for 15, 20, 30+ minutes at a time depending upon how much heat I can keep in the lubricants. With Scholl, my set times are typically between 3-5 minutes (The work time on all the Scholl polishes is similar)... I personally see this as advantageous, as it allows me to do more work in less time, but there is something terribly relaxing about settling back into a long set with Menzerna on a quiet weekend. I guess I see the merit in both... :buffer:

Steampunk


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## Flakey (May 5, 2013)

Steampunk said:


> With my DA I can work Menzerna for 15, 20, 30+ minutes at a time depending upon how much heat I can keep in the lubricants. With Scholl, my set times are typically between 3-5 minutes (The work time on all the Scholl polishes is similar)... I personally see this as advantageous, as it allows me to do more work in less time, but there is something terribly relaxing about settling back into a long set with Menzerna on a quiet weekend. I guess I see the merit in both... :buffer:
> 
> Steampunk


This may sound stupid considering I am a newbie and have never used a DA ( I use a Dewalt Rotary), but what governs the working time of polishes - is it the lubricants?

Also, how does one know about working time when using a polish? For example, if I was using a Menzerna or a Scholl on my rotary; would there be any signs that the polish has reached its limit in terms of how long it can be worked?


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## pawlik (May 16, 2011)

Flakey said:


> This may sound stupid considering I am a newbie and have never used a DA ( I use a Dewalt Rotary), but what governs the working time of polishes - is it the lubricants?
> 
> Also, how does one know about working time when using a polish? For example, if I was using a Menzerna or a Scholl on my rotary; would there be any signs that the polish has reached its limit in terms of how long it can be worked?


After 3-5 min of working Scholl become almost clear, menz stays "milky" and more greasy, after 7-9 min menz become clear too. Personally I stop workink when polish become clear.


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## Steampunk (Aug 11, 2011)

Flakey said:


> This may sound stupid considering I am a newbie and have never used a DA ( I use a Dewalt Rotary), but what governs the working time of polishes - is it the lubricants?
> 
> Also, how does one know about working time when using a polish? For example, if I was using a Menzerna or a Scholl on my rotary; would there be any signs that the polish has reached its limit in terms of how long it can be worked?


With a rotary the working times would be shorter still. The working time of diminishing polishes is controlled by how quickly the abrasives break down, and for how long the lubricants can sustain them in suspension.

Scholl uses a very viscous lubricant that remains fairly constant over the length of the set, but if you pay attention you can feel when the changeover point happens and the abrasives break down, as the friction level decreases and the polish seems to go very smooth. However, I know some people that time it, and just keep an eye on their wrist-watch. Russell of Reflectology started the timed technique with a rotary polisher, but as I use a DA and vary my speed depending upon the finish I am working on, I tend to find tactile feedback to be a more reliable method of telling when the polish is broken down. When over-worked I actually find Scholl polishes to turn a bit cloudy due to the over-load of paint residue built up in the polish film...

With Menzerna you visually watch the lubricants lose viscosity, and you decrease speed each time before they disappear completely in order to keep the product in play (This is part of the Zenith-Point-Method; the first stage you slowly increase the speed to build some heat into the lubricants, the last stage you slowly decrease the speed as they begin to flash-off, as each deceleration releases more product in the pad.).

The lubricants in Reflect stay pretty stable like Scholl, but with this product the break-down process is more visual, as they turn transparent when the product is done working.

Hopefully this helps...

Steampunk


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## Flakey (May 5, 2013)

Thanks again steampunk. You have fast tracked my learning on polishes in general.

Since this thread is turning out to be such a breakthrough in terms of learning for me, I am going to throw in the Optimum line of polishes - hyper compound, hyper polish, compound II, polish II, GPS and Poli Seal. Can somebody please tell me how is the working time on Optimum polishes compared to Scholl (short) and Menzerna (Long)? I am aware that optimum polishes are SMAT unlike Scholl and Menzerna.


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## Steampunk (Aug 11, 2011)

Flakey said:


> Thanks again steampunk. You have fast tracked my learning on polishes in general.
> 
> Since this thread is turning out to be such a breakthrough in terms of learning for me, I am going to throw in the Optimum line of polishes - hyper compound, hyper polish, compound II, polish II, GPS and Poli Seal. Can somebody please tell me how is the working time on Optimum polishes compared to Scholl (short) and Menzerna (Long)? I am aware that optimum polishes are SMAT unlike Scholl and Menzerna.


The working time on Optimum (Or Meguiar's; both use non-diminishing abrasives, referred to as 'SMAT' in Megs marketing-lingo.) is theoretically* as long or as short as you want/need it to be, depending upon your technique. If you need/want to make just 1-pass with zero/light pressure to increase the gloss, you can, as the abrasives remain at the same scale irregardless of how long they are worked. Likewise, if you wanted/needed to work - say - Optimum Polish II for 15+ minutes with high pressure to remove heavier defects, you can do that as well...

* I say 'theoretically', as at some stage the carrier in the polishes will flash, and or the lubricant film will become over-loaded with paint swarf and lose its ability to hold the abrasives in suspension. For this reason, Meguiar's heavier cutting 'SMAT' compounds actually have a fairly short 'practical' working time, whilst the finer polishes from both OPT and Megs tend to be much longer.

Hopefully this helps, and if you have any more polish-related questions feel free to throw them out there! :thumb:

Steampunk


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## Flakey (May 5, 2013)

Steampunk said:


> if you have any more polish-related questions feel free to throw them out there! :thumb:


Well you're on a roll so how can I not have more questions 

1. I decided to opt for DAT abrasives as a newbie to learn rotary control as I thought the abrasives will rapidly diminish and the probability for damage will be less compared to SMAT. Did I make a mistake there? It seems to me now after reading your response on SMAT polishes that I could be in control, instead of the polish. Should I make the switch then to SMAT?

2. I have used Hyper compound on a hex yellow cutting pad with great results in terms of defect removal. However, I found the working time to be very short compared to Menzerna SF4500, which I used after compounding to remove all the haze and buffer trails from the hyper compound. The compound just dried up in a few passes and turned hazy and became un workable. But I loved the fact about it that in comparison to M105, it hardly ever dusts. Are you saying that their hyper polish will have a longer working time than their compound?

3. Can the working time of Optimum polishes be increased by adding a spritz of water or QD?

4. Are the hyper twins very different to their compound II and polish II?

Thanks again.


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## stangalang (Nov 27, 2009)

Flakey said:


> This may sound stupid considering I am a newbie and have never used a DA ( I use a Dewalt Rotary), but what governs the working time of polishes - is it the lubricants?
> 
> Also, how does one know about working time when using a polish? For example, if I was using a Menzerna or a Scholl on my rotary; would there be any signs that the polish has reached its limit in terms of how long it can be worked?


The user, and the abrasives govern the work time of a polish. And if using a smat abrasive, the defects also.

Scholl typically needs between 90 seconds and 3 minutes to fully break down, slow hand movements and moderate pressure. Menzerna takes longer, but has the added bonus of longer work periods, that if juggled correctly can be extended for long periods, meaning a very slow even break down of the abrasive, increasing clarity and gloss.

Don't think of an abrasive as a particle, think of it as particles glued together, to make a bigger particle, and glued again to make a bigger one again. The lubricants allow you time to split these particles down to their finishing size. The cut is dictated by its starting size, and the finish by its end size. Work a polish too fast, or too slow, or apply too much pressure and they won't break evenly across the panel. Use a product meant for a ceramic clear on a soft paint and you won't be able to gain enough resistance to break up that particle, likewise if its not meant for a ceramic then it may break up all too easily. This is why one product doesn't fit all, and also why more modern compounds can finish better than a lot of older polishes.

With a smat abrasive the particle is always smaller and the same size, but the amount contained in the bottle is infinitely more. This is why a lot of modern compounds are measured in weight and not fluid amount, they are so full of solids they are barely a liquid anymore. Its important to remember that with a reduced lubricant content it may be essential to drop speeds to allow a longer work time. Products like P1 etc are almost ALL abrasive and so are very effective but require their own technique again. I find these incredibly effective via da, as they work with low heat build up and slow even pressure and movement

HTH in some way


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## Steampunk (Aug 11, 2011)

Flakey said:


> Well you're on a roll so how can I not have more questions
> 
> 1. I decided to opt for DAT abrasives as a newbie to learn rotary control as I thought the abrasives will rapidly diminish and the probability for damage will be less compared to SMAT. Did I make a mistake there? It seems to me now after reading your response on SMAT polishes that I could be in control, instead of the polish. Should I make the switch then to SMAT?
> 
> ...


Great post from Stangalang on understanding abrasive type, but I'll see if there's anything more I can add in answer to your questions...

Let's start with question #1... Both diminishing and non-diminishing polishes have their place; both for different types of correction work, and for different user preferences. Buying one or the other is not a mistake as long as you are prepared to learn how they work, and how to get the best from them.

With non-diminishing polishes, your control is 'in the moment'; whether you cut more or less can be determined as you work. With diminishing abrasives your control lies mostly in the preparation stage, as you decide what pad/polish combo you are about to use. Non-diminishing abrasives have the advantage of requiring slightly less foresight (Particularly if their lubricants are clear, and allow you to watch as the defects are being corrected. This is a big advantage of Optimum.), but the downside of this is that their scale is fixed; you can vary the depth of cut somewhat with pressure, but a non-diminishing medium polish combo will never turn into a non-diminishing finishing polish combo in the middle of a set. With a diminishing polish, it can! Because diminishing polishes start at one abrasive scale, and finish at another, they can sometimes have a wider cut/finish spectrum with a given pad than one which remained constant. The loss is a little bit of control during the process, as once you start you cannot stop unless you want to accept less than the polishes' best.

I use both depending upon the situation, and using them safely and to the best of their abilities simply requires a change of thought and working style. Some detailers instinctively 'get' one style over the other, especially when they're just getting into paintwork correction (I preferred SMAT polishes when I first got started for what it's worth.), but that is more of a personal decision than anything...

Hopefully that answered question one; let's move onto question #2...

Yes, Hyper Polish may have a slightly longer working time than Hyper Compound, but part of it is down to technique. Firstly, are you _fully_ priming every square millimeter of foam when you are using Hyper Compound? Completely priming the pad is the preferred method with most non-diminishing polishes, but something I've always struggled with when using the Optimum sprays; I just find it a little easier to do/less messy with their numbered gels. Spraying the product onto the foam, and working it in with your hands until the surface is uniformly covered is a little trick that might help you to get a longer working time from Hyper Compound should you need/want it. However, yes, due to the amount of material that they remove heavier-cutting compounds will typically have a shorter effective life than finer ones as the lubricant will become loaded more quickly.

Question #3... No, this just turns them into a soupy mess. A water spritz is a trick that works with the Meguiar's compounds to both extend their work time and boost their cut, but not with Optimum. Fortunately it's not typically necessary, as Optimum's polishes are so well lubricated right out of the bottle, but this and other tricks do sometimes give the edge to Meguiar's when it comes to ultimate cutting potential.

Question #4... I think that this was asked in a recent thread about compounds, but yes, the Hyper sprays are different to the numbered gels. They use a much thinner viscosity lubricant to allow them to be atomized, and they are also slightly less aggressive.

Hopefully this helps...

Steampunk


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## Flakey (May 5, 2013)

Steampunk & Matt - Thanks for patiently answering so many polishing questions.

I just received Optimum Polish II. I have used Non-Diminishing compounds like M105 and Optimum Hyper Compound and diminishing polishes like S20B and Menzerna SF4500 so far. This will be my first go with a "Non-Dimishing Polish".

Thanks again for helping me narrow down what kind of abrasives I should try next and which brand would work well based on my long list of requirement.

Cheers!


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