# 2 sand colour coat or not



## pdrpaul (Aug 6, 2013)

hi people been looking online for help with this but cant find a definite answer. I have just finished removing a rust bubble and filing priming and applying a colour coat to my sill (corsa b colour code 14l nautilus) anyway going to apply lacqeur in the morning my question is should i sand the colour till it is matt then apply lacquer or put lacquer straight over the colour coat. Paint finish is mettalic! And im using aerosol cans:/ not ideal but needs must lol.:wave:


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## drewjak (Jun 25, 2011)

you need to go over it with some very fine sandpaper 1200 or 2000 or better still some grey scotchbright, if you dont the lacquer will not stick and will eventually if not sooner just flake off, also sills are regularly powerwashed so it nees to be well keyed to it


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## pdrpaul (Aug 6, 2013)

thanks mate was thinking id have to sand but wasnt sure cause the mettalic finish. Well im letting the colour dry in garage overnight and il wet sand it 2mo with 2000 grit to get it matt and as you say give the lacquer something to cling too! Thanks


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## DJ X-Ray (Sep 2, 2012)

i wouldn't sand metallic basecoat . Just the clearcoat


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## Andyb0127 (Jan 16, 2011)

You should never flat/sand basecoat. Also if you leave it over night before applying laquer, it won't adhere to it. So you'll need to flat it now and apply some more colour. In future apply your colour leaving around 10-15 mins between coats, never try to cover any primer in one go. Must apply nice even coats until covered. Then you can apply your laquer, again nice even coats leaving same time between coats. Its only primer and laquer that should be flatted. :thumb:


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## squiggs (Oct 19, 2009)

drewjak said:


> you need to go over it with some very fine sandpaper 1200 or 2000 or better still some grey scotchbright, if you dont the lacquer will not stick and will eventually if not sooner just flake off, also sills are regularly powerwashed so it nees to be well keyed to it


*Completely and utterly the wrong info!!!!!!*

DON'T SAND IT!!!!!!
If you sand a metallic you'll ruin all the metallic particles and you'll end up with a darker/dull looking colour as the metallic particles won't be able to do their job of reflecting light.
Imagine lots of tiny little mirrors in the paint - the moment you sand them they no longer remain shiney.

Lacquer will always adhere to fresh paint - but it won't adhere to original lacquer.

You should have sanded and treated the original damage then scotched an area beyond where you need finish painting (or the full panel if you're going edge to edge)
Then prime and flat back, then colour just past the primed area, then lacquer almost to the edge of the scotched area, then blend the lacquer edge (or lacquer edge to edge)


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## steveo3002 (Jan 30, 2006)

why do people post when they have no idea lol


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## Andyb0127 (Jan 16, 2011)

steveo3002 said:


> why do people post when they have no idea lol


who knows.
But to make it worse in a previous topic on here, he actually states he has over twenty years experience as a car sprayer, with replys like that its more like twenty minutes experience.


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## pdrpaul (Aug 6, 2013)

lol thanks you guys i have heard various things bout lacquering mettalic paint! But what you 2 guys say makes sense! As i previously tried sanding colour coat and as u say bout mirror effect u dont seem to get that glint that rest of car has so suggestion for 2moro would be sand colour coat with 2000 grit and put 2 or 3 layers of fresh colour on leave ten mins between coats! Then wait 15 mins and apply 2 coats of lacquer?? Thanks guys!


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## squiggs (Oct 19, 2009)

Andyb0127 said:


> who knows.
> But to make it worse in a previous topic on here, he actually states he has over twenty years experience as a car sprayer, with replys like that its more like twenty minutes experience.


In fairness I can't find a post where he states to have 20 yrs experience.
But I have seen that he claims to do Smart repairs 
If he really does do repairs and follows his own (wrong) advice :wall: I dread to think what the standard might be


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## Andyb0127 (Jan 16, 2011)

squiggs said:


> In fairness I can't find a post where he states to have 20 yrs experience.
> But I have seen that he claims to do Smart repairs
> If he really does do repairs and follows his own (wrong) advice :wall: I dread to think what the standard might be


This is the one claiming twenty years experience.
http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=315121

Well I think we can guess what the quailty will be, or lack of it.


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## pdrpaul (Aug 6, 2013)

thanks for advice guys did what i said prev and worked a treat. How long should i wait to rub lacquer down?


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## drewjak (Jun 25, 2011)

REALLY IM WRONG, Have any of you actually done what i said to do? , or are you just reciting from what you have read on the internet, or been told in college?

Experience is some thing gained by doing something, not by what you have read or been taught by someone who has no experience.

I dont need to argue to prove my answers, or to correct any of the doubts you seem to have about my abilities , knowledge and experience in this field of work


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## steveo3002 (Jan 30, 2006)

20+ years main dealer body shop experiance here 

you would get laughed at sanding base coat ...its just not done


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## moosh (May 8, 2011)

drewjak said:


> REALLY IM WRONG, Have any of you actually done what i said to do? , or are you just reciting from what you have read on the internet, or been told in college?
> 
> Experience is some thing gained by doing something, not by what you have read or been taught by someone who has no experience.
> 
> I dont need to argue to prove my answers, or to correct any of the doubts you seem to have about my abilities , knowledge and experience in this field of work


Yes you are wrong mate and im not looking for an arguement sanding base coat is 100% wrong, college would say so, paint manufacturers would say so, I've got 18 years experience and not once have I ever sanded base coat, painters who have 40 years experience would say it's wrong. The other two who are disagreeing with you are correct as well, one works for a main dealer and the other one is a smart repairer.

How do you get on sanding a water based base coat?

Where did you learn to paint?


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## toddy23 (Jun 16, 2012)

any SOLVENT base coat left more then 2-3 hours will need a scotch back off and re-based other wise the clear will flake off,when spraying your final coat of solvent it should be left 20 mins or so before you put clearcoat on,i dont under stand why you would leave it over night?and i dont know where your coming from when you say you cant rub base coat back down,so if your painting basecoat and it splats a load of ****e out you just leave it and clear it?you rub the ****e out re-base then clearcoat.i think what they mean is you cant rub the base down with say 500 and then put clear over the top,most water base basecoats have a 24hour window to put clear on but not solvent


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## drewjak (Jun 25, 2011)

steveo3002 said:


> 20+ years main dealer body shop experiance here
> 
> you would get laughed at sanding base coat ...its just not done


Wearing main dealer pants ,doesn't make you any better than anyone else !!

And if you cant sand base coat i truly must be special, do you just leave any foreign matter that may fall in to your jobs and lacquer over them ?, i would hope you flat them out and re paint before you lacquer

whilst were talking main dealer, the bodyshop i work in ,contracts for most of our local main dealers because none of them have bodyshops, nissan, peugeot/citroen, vauxhall (last week i re painted a 62 plated arden blue astra vxr through vauxhall warranty, we have another 8 to do due to there being no paint on them and you can see through them)
we also do volvo, mazda and jaguar we have regular customers with bentlys,astons, mercs and bmws, that are millionairs from around the lakedistrict area .


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## steveo3002 (Jan 30, 2006)

best post up the name of the place you work at...so we can all avoid it lmao


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## Andyb0127 (Jan 16, 2011)

drewjak said:


> REALLY IM WRONG, Have any of you actually done what i said to do? , or are you just reciting from what you have read on the internet, or been told in college?
> 
> Experience is some thing gained by doing something, not by what you have read or been taught by someone who has no experience.
> 
> I dont need to argue to prove my answers, or to correct any of the doubts you seem to have about my abilities , knowledge and experience in this field of work


No I haven't tried what your suggesting, and I certainly wouldn't try it either as yes it is wrong and won't work. Experience and knowledge is gained by being trained, not by just trying it to see what happens. And I very much doubt that the painters/smart guys on here have been taught by people with no experience. Well you've certanly done a good job of making people doubt your abilities, its not about proving them showing how much knowledge or experience you have its about giving people the correct advice/information to the questions that they have asked, or trying to show how many years you've been in the trade, but if you want my back ground I've been in the trade over thirty years, working on classic restorations to Concours standard, race cars, main stream bodyshop specailising in prestige car repairs, now currently a smart repairer with all the appropriate qualifications.


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## Andyb0127 (Jan 16, 2011)

drewjak said:


> Wearing main dealer pants ,doesn't make you any better than anyone else !!
> 
> And if you cant sand base coat i truly must be special, do you just leave any foreign matter that may fall in to your jobs and lacquer over them ?, i would hope you flat them out and re paint before you lacquer
> 
> ...


And bragging about where you work the cars they do, or how you've done this won't get you any where any where either.


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## andyrst (Apr 6, 2009)

i would normaly denib dirt out of base coat with 1000 3M pad recoat basecoat is that wrong way? that's what i was told do at collaged


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## Andyb0127 (Jan 16, 2011)

steveo3002 said:


> best post up the name of the place you work at...so we can all avoid it lmao


what like the plague lol.


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## squiggs (Oct 19, 2009)

If I ever have to flat a base coat because a bit of sh1t has got onto it it means I've got to recoat it.
No way - no how could I flat it and then lacquer it!
(I may just get away with it on a flat white - but never on anything else.)

If you can flat a metallic/pearl base paint and simply lacquer over the top can you explain how you manage to do it without damaging the metallic/pearl particles in the paint.
Metallic particles are kind of pyramid shaped - pearl kind of half tube shaped - I fail to see how you can flat them (literally) yet let them maintain their shape so that they can still do their job properly ?????

Your answer could be revolutionary to the whole trade.


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## squiggs (Oct 19, 2009)

toddy23 said:


> ..... so if your painting basecoat and it splats a load of ****e out ...... you rub the ****e out re-base then clearcoat.


That's what most us would do.
Although (if you read from the second post onwards) it seems we've been re-basing unnecessarily and could've simply flattened back and lacquered over the top


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## steveo3002 (Jan 30, 2006)

imagine em at the factorys nipping in next day and sanding the base coat ...spose they have a robot sander


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## pdrpaul (Aug 6, 2013)

lol didnt mean to start such a debate lol! Have to say i took andyb and squiggs advice on my paint job and it came out so much
better than i thought it would on a previous repair few month ago i did sand metalic before applying lacquer and its turned out dull and no gd at all! Infact with this new info im going to sort all the rust and previous repair i messed up lol. Thanks guys. Ps whats best way to buff/polish my new paint. Was thinking 2000grit wet and dry followed by g3 and finish wit g10? Will this work?


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## squiggs (Oct 19, 2009)

Your finishing sounds spot on - if you've already got a good finish you could leave out the 2000.


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## toddy23 (Jun 16, 2012)

The guy who posted said he put the basecoat on the night before so if it was solvent base coat you have a time window when the clear coats needs to go on after the last coat of base which is 2-3 hours any time after will need keyed back again and re-based,water base has a 24 hour window then needs scotched or the clear will de-laminate,the guy who posted the second post is right any solvent base left over night needs scotched off and re-based


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## toddy23 (Jun 16, 2012)

I really can't see the point basing something up and leaving it next day to put clear on,well only if there was something wrong in the prep or basecoat and needs next day to sort it


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## pdrpaul (Aug 6, 2013)

thanks squiggs! Will just g3 and g10 me thinks as you really do struggle to see any difference in colour/texture as i said very happy you two guys gave me ur advice cheers. Really wanted that rust bubble on sill sorted for mot which was today! And it passed with flying colours not bad for 15 year old corsa should i wait a week or soo to buff it in??


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## pdrpaul (Aug 6, 2013)

toddy ended up putting base on and then the heavens opened lol and at time i was going with advice on hellfrauds lacquer can ie leave 24 hour till u apply lacquer lol.. Now i know the way i wont be making that mistake again


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## toddy23 (Jun 16, 2012)

Well at least you got it sorted,there is some useful smart repair guys on her like squiggs and andy so you can't go wrong with there help coz they do know what there talking about with smart repair I have always said its a skill to blow stuff in and fade away for a totally faultless blend where you can never ever tell,I know people who will never fade stuff away and always end up painting more than they need and blend the next panel even tho there is no need to


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## squiggs (Oct 19, 2009)

Toddy - 
You keep mentioning flatting and then re-basing - and if flatting of the base was required then re-basing is what we would all do before applying lacquer .... except one ..... who gave the mis-information along the lines of 'flat and lacquer'. 
Never did/has he mentioned the need of a re-base after flattening - in fact he seems to be denying that re-basing is required over a flattened base.

Anyway the OP has now re-based and by all accounts the jobs a good-un :thumb:


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## pdrpaul (Aug 6, 2013)

well one my next things to sort is rear window wiper not trien to boy racer car to old for that madness lol. Doing it as on corsa b its very prone to rusting will be panel bonding a metal plate in instead of welding to eliminate warping and i dont wana leave car in bodyshop in college as things seem to vanish:/ so will post up some pics of it and use this new found knowledge lol. I know who to ask in future now cheers guys


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## drewjak (Jun 25, 2011)

Well no wonder you guys decided to give me a kicking.........I've just gone back to the beginning and read my original post, It seems the main part of the post where i told the op to re-paint ,wait and then lacquer has not been posted !!
Now i don't know if forgot to type this, or for some reason its been deleted or not typed i don't know what has happened , but what is written is not the complete advice i would have given him trust me no wonder you guys were being so bloody hostile !!

Trust me guys i`ve been in this job for 22yrs and do know what im doing, amazingly it just goes to prove how a simple typo can cause all sorts of trouble


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## djgregory (Apr 2, 2013)

Hmmm strange


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## Kiashuma (May 4, 2011)

pdrpaul said:


> toddy ended up putting base on and then the heavens opened lol and at time i was going with advice on hellfrauds lacquer can ie leave 24 hour till u apply lacquer lol.. Now i know the way i wont be making that mistake again


The cans do say that, glad I read up on here before doing my wheeltrims :thumb:


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## pdrpaul (Aug 6, 2013)

expensive and wrong advice lol. Glad i found this forum


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## Andyb0127 (Jan 16, 2011)

pdrpaul said:


> toddy ended up putting base on and then the heavens opened lol and at time i was going with advice on hellfrauds lacquer can ie leave 24 hour till u apply lacquer lol.. Now i know the way i wont be making that mistake again


Glad you got it sorted mate, and all came out well.
That's the trouble with halfords and there mis-information, hate to think how many other people have followed that, and ended up with laquer flaking off. :thumb:


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## pdrpaul (Aug 6, 2013)

yeah would love to know how many people follow halfrauds instructions then scratch theyr heads wondring what the hell happened lol! Thanks mate!


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## squiggs (Oct 19, 2009)

As well as helping somebody out this topic has taught me something ......

I really didn't know that fresh paint (wb or solvent) had 'a life' whereby the lacquer wouldn't adhere if it had gone past a certain time frame 

Thinking about it logically it makes sense to me now - but as my jobs are usually completed in hours rather than days it's never been something I've had to consider or worry about.

You live and learn - and if you're not learning then you're not living :thumb:


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## pdrpaul (Aug 6, 2013)

if you dont mind me asking how did you get into smart repairs! Been want to get into smart repairs for ages but unsure where to get trained etc. Was looking at ayce but the training seems v expensive!


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