# HBOS ripping off the poorest customers



## asjam86

For those who don't know you'll be getting a letter throught the post about to tell you that your going to be paying £1 per day that you are overdrawn for £2500 and under. Those over £2500 your charge will be £2 per day. This takes your charges up from £1.63 per month to £31 per month if your in your overdraft constantly. 

Now forgive me but does this not smack of a bit of robbing the poor. Lets face it your not in your overdraft by choice. I know there are some that use it as an extension to your loans but those who are poorest are now helping to bail out the wounded bank! I'm just gob smacked at this I really am. 

I don't see how it can be justified a jump of that amount is just silly. 

I'm not with them (thank god) I switched to Abbey who were doing 12 months overdraft with no charges (also no interest paid on being in credit). I don't know if there still doing this but it maybe worth a switch peeps. 

God do I ever hate banks.


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## somouk

Im an RBS customer and they requested to remove my overdraft completely because people really are taking the mick with them.

At the end of the day an over draft is a loan of money from the bank, they are perfectly with in their rights to charge you for this.

It's unfortunate for some who use the overdraft facility and then cannot claw tehir way back out of it but that simply means you haven't managed your money correctly be it now or in the past and must finally stop living a lifestyle of credit or be punished for it.


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## perks

So £30 a month?

natwest are a part of RBS, does that mean I'll get stung too?


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## Maggi200

perks said:


> So £30 a month?
> 
> natwest are a part of RBS, does that mean I'll get stung too?


Wait for the letter to come through I would say. Is this the same Perks?


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## ivor

i've managed to dig my way out of two overdrafts now but have recently switched to RBS as Abbey soon to become Santander have become the biggest bunch of tossbags going i lost my card so went in to get money out to be told a passport and full knowledge of the account wasn't good enough and that i needed a statement as well they may of become one of the biggest banks but they will screw you over at the slightest opportunity


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## perks

somouk said:


> Im an RBS customer and they requested to remove my overdraft completely because people really are taking the mick with them.
> 
> At the end of the day an over draft is a loan of money from the bank, they are perfectly with in their rights to charge you for this.
> 
> It's unfortunate for some who use the overdraft facility and then cannot claw tehir way back out of it but that simply means you haven't managed your money correctly be it now or in the past and must finally stop living a lifestyle of credit or be punished for it.


Or get yourself into a situation, find a way to manage it and gradually pay it off then get bitten by an increase in charges the banks seem to add wherever they please.

As for being punished, punished for what? Using a facillity offered to you at a time of need?


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## Gruffs

I agree, you shouldn't be charged for using your overdraft facility for a period of 2 months. Anyone can have an unexpected expense come up. 

But, using your overdraft is borrowing. As a valued customer, borrowing for a couple of months should be OK. What the banks are trying to get you to do is to get out of your overdraft by having a loan at a silly % rate. 

How much per month is a £2500 loan?


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## Pezza4u

somouk said:


> It's unfortunate for some who use the overdraft facility and then cannot claw tehir way back out of it but that simply means you haven't managed your money correctly be it now or in the past and must finally stop living a lifestyle of credit or be punished for it.


That may not be the case though. Alot of people have had to take pay cuts or a pay freeze, which may mean their outgoings are more than what comes in. People need to eat, keep warm etc and it doesn't seem fair doing this. Probably trying to get money back that they lost when repaying all the charges.

Since when have overdrafts been for thousands anyway, mine is for 100 quid but never use it. I thought they were for emergencies so only small amounts?


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## Grizzle

Got the letter my self i think its ridiculous and will be moving my account ASAP!


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## Frothey

isn't the overdraft unsecured debt? no wonder they charge. can't see how it's being "ripped off"?



perks said:


> As for being punished, punished for what? Using a facillity offered to you at a time of need?


just because it's offered, doesn't mean you have to use it.....


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## perks

In The Detail said:


> isn't the overdraft unsecured debt? no wonder they charge. can't see how it's being "ripped off"?
> 
> just because it's offered, doesn't mean you have to use it.....


And just because you do doesn't mean you have to get shafted.

In fairness if you got into your overdraft knowing the high interest rate, that's fair enough. What's not fair is when you're already in it and they put the rate up all of a sudden.


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## asjam86

So you think that 300% increase in fees is acceptable?

Don't forget that everyone is in a credit crunch and those who haven't curbed their spending habits should accept this quite willingly however don't forget...
Were in a credit crunch...
People are loosing their jobs (my wife was made redundant from Black Horse thanks to Gordon Brandy swilling session). No fault of hers. So now we only have 1 income.
Petrol prices and VAT are about to rise.
Christmas is knocking on our doors (very apt moment to bring in increased charges).
Bonuses have been frozen.
People are doing 3 day a week because of the down turn in business.

My point is that through no fault of their own people maybe forced into using their overdraft to help them in times of need. Slapping £31 per month charges won't help those in need get out of the rut their infact it'd push them further into their rut.


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## perks

asjam86 said:


> So you think that 300% increase in fees is acceptable?
> 
> Don't forget that everyone is in a credit crunch and those who haven't curbed their spending habits should accept this quite willingly however don't forget...
> Were in a credit crunch...
> People are loosing their jobs (my wife was made redundant from Black Horse thanks to Gordon Brandy swilling session). No fault of hers. So now we only have 1 income.
> Petrol prices and VAT are about to rise.
> Christmas is knocking on our doors (very apt moment to bring in increased charges).
> Bonuses have been frozen.
> People are doing 3 day a week because of the down turn in business.
> 
> My point is that through no fault of their own people maybe forced into using their overdraft to help them in times of need. Slapping £31 per month charges won't help those in need get out of the rut their infact it'd push them further into their rut.


Spot on the money there mate.


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## MattDuffy88

I'm with Halifax and had one of these letters through last week, I do have an overdraft but don't use it unless I really have to (emergency and such), but I will be moving my account/s after getting fed up of having someone phoning me every other week trying to sell me a service I don't need nor want!

I believe it is wrong to slap a huge charge on overdrafts at the moment considering how many people have been put out of work and are seriously struggling to find work, running out of money and it will hit them hard just when they need support.

IIRC the changes don't take place until December (don't have the letter to hand) so you have plenty of time to scarper if needs be.


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## Gruffs

So if you have an overdraft that you are permanetly in, how do you change banks? 
Surely the new bank wouldn't give you an overdraft to start with that you are going straight into?

What's in it for them?


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## Grizzle

fiestech said:


> IIRC the changes don't take place until December (don't have the letter to hand) so you have plenty of time to scarper if needs be.


IF you can let us know when it happens that would be great, i shredded my letter in anger lol i sometimes use my overdraft but its just laziness on the managing money side lol.


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## MattDuffy88

Gruffs said:


> So if you have an overdraft that you are permanently in, how do you change banks?
> Surely the new bank wouldn't give you an overdraft to start with that you are going straight into?
> 
> What's in it for them?


Sorry, I didn't mean if you're stuck in an overdraft. What I meant to say is if you're a person who constantly dips in and out if your overdraft then you can get a better deal elsewhere.

Some banks however will provide an overdraft facility straight away (last time I checked).


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## asjam86

As I mentioned earlier Abbey did a deal where you could have 12 months agreed overdraft without any charges but you also wouldn't recieve any interest on your positive balances either.


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## MattDuffy88

Grizzle said:


> IF you can let us know when it happens that would be great, i shredded my letter in anger lol i sometimes use my overdraft but its just laziness on the managing money side lol.


From the 6th December '09.


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## Sonic

asjam86 said:


> For those who don't know you'll be getting a letter throught the post about to tell you that your going to be paying £1 per day that you are overdrawn for £2500 and under. Those over £2500 your charge will be £2 per day. This takes your charges up from £1.63 per month to £31 per month if your in your overdraft constantly.


Cheers for the heads up!

Is this ontop of interest then? So if you were £2500 OD you'd be paying £60/month + interest?


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## edition_25

somouk said:


> Im an RBS customer and they requested to remove my overdraft completely because people really are taking the mick with them.
> 
> At the end of the day an over draft is a loan of money from the bank, they are perfectly with in their rights to charge you for this.
> 
> It's unfortunate for some who use the overdraft facility and then cannot claw tehir way back out of it but that simply means you haven't managed your money correctly be it now or in the past and must finally stop living a lifestyle of credit or be punished for it.


What are you banging on about?? You simply have no understanding of the current situation that people are in do you??

How about, I make you and your missus unemployed...tell you you wont be recieving any weeks owed because the company cant afford it. Christmas is just around the corner and the kids are expecting as usual! Your savings just about pay rent/morgage bills....all of which are on the increase.

So......

What else do you expect people to do?? The banks know this, and are using all the power they can to make up for their errors by screwing over people who are in a bad situation.

Think before you post in future


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## MattDuffy88

Sonic said:


> Cheers for the heads up!
> 
> Is this ontop of interest then? So if you were £2500 OD you'd be paying £60/month + interest?


No, they're scrapping the interest and just going with the charges per day regardless of how much you are overdrawn (£1 per day for balances up to £2500 overdrawn and £2 per day for balances over £2500 overdrawn)


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## big_amir

Are these charges not just for unplanned overdrafts?

Why not just agree a limit with your bank and then you only have to pay interest on it, no charges. Or am i missing something?

EDIT: ^^^ Just read the above post


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## VIPER

Explained here, this is for Halifax accounts though.

http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/news/banking/2009/10/how-to-beat-halifaxs-overdraft-chagres


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## MattDuffy88

big_amir said:


> Are these charges not just for unplanned overdrafts?
> 
> Why not just agree a limit with your bank and then you only have to pay interest on it, no charges. Or am i missing something?
> 
> EDIT: ^^^ Just read the above post


For an unarranged overdraft it is £5 per day:doublesho


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## big_amir

Thanks Viper. I was missing something :lol:


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## GTIKris

Does the OP mean BOS and not RBS-Natwest? I have searched high and low an can find nothing from RBS saying they are changing to that method of charging for overdrafts.

In fact, it was only recently that RBS slashed its charges and reduced the overdraft interest rate...


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## Fat Audi 80

Sonic said:


> Cheers for the heads up!
> 
> Is this ontop of interest then? So if you were £2500 OD you'd be paying £60/month + interest?


Hi Andy,

No, no more interest just a "daily" charge that could cost you £31 a month if you are overdrawn for the whole month!

I am with Halifax and seriously thinking of changing. I am fed up with their attitude and complete lack of customer care. We have done all our banking including savings and investments with them and I have just about had enough.... 

Cheers,

Steve.


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## Lloyd71

I'm still in my overdraft due to losing 2 jobs this time last year (one of them before I even started) and then only being able to get casual work since. Luckily now I've got a full time contract but is this affecting any other banks? I'm with HSBC and their interest rate is high but fair, I'm hoping they will stick with that.


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## VIPER

I'm not with Halifax or RBS, but it's a shocking system imo. For those people who occasionally spend a few weeks only a few quid overdrawn on an agreed overdraft, it's an outrageous amount to charge them!

For unauthorised overdrafts of large amounts then that's maybe different, but even then I think the % rate system was fairer.


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## VIPER

GTIKris said:


> Does the OP mean BOS and not RBS-Natwest? I have searched high and low an can find nothing from RBS saying they are changing to that method of charging for overdrafts.
> 
> In fact, it was only recently that RBS slashed its charges and reduced the overdraft interest rate...


Same here - I'm with Natwest and have also been looking through all my T&Cs etc. on both my own bank and RBS and couldn't find anything either, and all the info looks up to date to me.


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## chrisc

yep they have stung me aswell.ive had ten years of wages go in paid 7 loans off i have had with them.then asked for a little loan to try save charges to be told yes you can have one 29.9percent.so moving my current account over to natwest with my buissnes account.stuff them.my dads even changing and my brother and they dont really go in to them.told them what i thought on phone but suppose they are only doing a job.still makes you mad though there going to be a hell of a lot of people move account morgages etc.for a bank what as had our tax bail outs stinks hope they go bust


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## Fat Audi 80

It is a complete rip off! I was happy to pay a few £'s a month. (£3 - £5) for being £50- overdrawn into my AGREED overdraft, but now it is daylight robbery!


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## somouk

edition_25 said:


> What are you banging on about?? You simply have no understanding of the current situation that people are in do you??
> 
> How about, I make you and your missus unemployed...tell you you wont be recieving any weeks owed because the company cant afford it. Christmas is just around the corner and the kids are expecting as usual! Your savings just about pay rent/morgage bills....all of which are on the increase.
> 
> So......
> 
> What else do you expect people to do?? The banks know this, and are using all the power they can to make up for their errors by screwing over people who are in a bad situation.
> 
> Think before you post in future


I think someone needs to drink a little less coffee in the morning or maybe remember he is on an internet forum and aggression gets you no where.

I can understand people situations at the moment and I haven't been living under a rock so know that people are being made redundant etc, my work have had a 15% redundancy rate and in their situation I can understand the use of an overdraft facility but if it wasn't there in the first place then what would you do?


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## swordjo

I wouldn't say they were just ripping off their poorest customers. I used to work in a bank of you would be amazed at how many 'well off' people used an overdraft right up to the limit every month. Doctors etc were the worst, people of a certain wealth have a lifestyle expectation they feel they may have to stick too and an overdraft can allow people to do so. So it won't just be the 'poorest' customers affected.


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## MattDuffy88

somouk said:


> I think someone needs to drink a little less coffee in the morning or maybe remember he is on an internet forum and aggression gets you no where.
> 
> I can understand people situations at the moment and I haven't been living under a rock so know that people are being made redundant etc, my work have had a 15% redundancy rate and in their situation I can understand the use of an overdraft facility but if it wasn't there in the first place then what would you do?


Go without food, power, gas, car and live in poverty living off handouts like others have been forced to.


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## edition_25

somouk said:


> I think someone needs to drink a little less coffee in the morning or maybe remember he is on an internet forum and aggression gets you no where.
> 
> I can understand people situations at the moment and I haven't been living under a rock so know that people are being made redundant etc, my work have had a 15% redundancy rate and in their situation I can understand the use of an overdraft facility but if it wasn't there in the first place then what would you do?


Im in a right fowl mood this morning! DVLA have pissed me off major style with my V5, and this was the first place I came and sent my anger here...ive eaten now so all is better...but im still frustrated!

I think if the facility was never there people would probably be alot better off...realy daft having them to be honest


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## chrisc

somouk said:


> Im an RBS customer and they requested to remove my overdraft completely because people really are taking the mick with them.
> 
> At the end of the day an over draft is a loan of money from the bank, they are perfectly with in their rights to charge you for this.
> 
> It's unfortunate for some who use the overdraft facility and then cannot claw tehir way back out of it but that simply means you haven't managed your money correctly be it now or in the past and must finally stop living a lifestyle of credit or be punished for it.


thats not always case though is it.i had to have two year of work through illness.and finaly getting my self right money wise.and getting stung like that its not on.


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## empsburna

Can nobody see that it is because of overdrafts, massive borrowing and 100% mortgages that the country/world is in an economic crisis?


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## MattDuffy88

Midlands Detailing said:


> Can nobody see that it is because of overdrafts, massive borrowing and 100% mortgages that the country/world is in an economic crisis?


It's not necessarily having an overdraft, it is the useage and over useage of them that has caused trouble. I, like many others only have one there as a 'safety net' just in case I have to take a big financial hit.


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## chrisc

Midlands Detailing said:


> Can nobody see that it is because of overdrafts, massive borrowing and 100% mortgages that the country/world is in an economic crisis?


yes you are correct.


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## VIPER

It's fairly easy to slip even just literally a couple of quid into your agreed overdraft for a variety of reasons, and that's a world away from being £2500 or more in the black. 

So to have a single blanket charge that costs exactly the same for both of those situations is ridiculous and why the graduated % system was fair.


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## ALANSHR

I cant believe that anyone has one shread of support for the banks. And dont get me started on society's manufactured reliance on banks, for instance, try getting paid cash in hand.

In this case, both parties enter into an agreement based on certain conditions, then the bank look to increase charges for one aspect by approx 20 fold, is this reasonable - NO, should this be prevented by the Banking Ombudsman - YES

We should never forget that it is these greedy bankers who have led the nation into much of the problems it now finds itself, along with some support from Government, and it is they who should be punished, not the customers.

Many are already working on loopholes on loss making which will mean that it will be many years before the public see any of the bail out monies returned to public funds.

All too late, various governments are now looking to reduce the size of the banks so that if banks get into trouble on the future they can just be left to go to the wall without the fear of a complete meltdown.


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## GTIKris

Midlands Detailing said:


> Can nobody see that it is because of overdrafts, massive borrowing and 100% mortgages that the country/world is in an economic crisis?


Slightly simplistic view IMHO. Borrowing money, and hence banks are essential for economic growth. Its only when people borrow what they cannot afford to pay back that the problems start.


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## empsburna

GTIKris said:


> Slightly simplistic view IMHO. Borrowing money, and hence banks are essential for economic growth. Its only when people borrow what they cannot afford to pay back that the problems start.


Maybe so, but it still fueled by greed, by the bank and the consumer.


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## Janitor

Humm... banks are cs

Had a business account with Halifax / RBS and the overdraft was up for renewal - £100-ish charge

Got a further letter through shortly after saying "Actually, we've changed our minds - we're not renewing the overdraft, but instead we'd like you to put the account back into credit as we have to protect our position"

So, they had £110 to clear the overdrawn amount and then got told to fk right off 

Now, if it was £100,000 they were requesting back, then maybe I could understand as that's a considerable sum for any business to have outstanding, but £110..? WTF..? They would have received almost that in a renewal fee alone and obviously have gained more in charges & fees etc as time goes on. By 'protecting their position' which wasn't under any threat, they have lost my custom completely. How can that be 'good management'..?


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## VIPER

Can anyone clued up just qualify which banks we're talking about here as saying 'Halifax/RBS' being mentioned in the same sentence isn't correct as RBS are not connected to Halifax at all to my knowledge?


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## Janitor

Halifax

I thought they were somehow under the RBS umbrella Viper... but it seems I might be mistaken on that score...


In fact I know I am - It's Bank of Scotland

Man, I was way off...


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## VIPER

Janitor said:


> Halifax
> 
> I thought they were somehow under the RBS umbrella Viper... but it seems I might be mistaken on that score


Okay, mate :thumb: Just wanted to clarify that as some people might be getting concerned with no reason. From my understanding Halifax and Bank of Scotland are both under the HBOS group, whereas the Royal Bank of Scotland and Natwest are together but totally seperate from HBOS.


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## perks

GTIKris said:


> Slightly simplistic view IMHO. Borrowing money, and hence banks are essential for economic growth. Its only when people borrow what they cannot afford to pay back that the problems start.


I both agree and disagree, my overdraft is managable and is being paid off faster than initially agreed with the bank.

However, the carges so far are around £5 pcm, if that increases to £31 pcm my payments will be reduced by £26pcm. That's £312 per year I'll not be able to pay off the balance.

Not going into how much I owe, that could easily put another year on the repayment time.


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## perks

So are RBS not doing this then?


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## ALANSHR

news flash, 56 minutes ago:
Halifax and Bank of Scotland account holders to be hit by daily overdraft charges and loss of interest payments

I bet they are still getting a bonus, dont you!


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## ALANSHR

HBOS are Halifax and Bank Of Scotland
RBS includes Nat West

they are completley separate entities but all are bankers


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## Glasgow_Gio

GTIKris said:


> Slightly simplistic view IMHO. Borrowing money, and hence banks are essential for economic growth. Its only when people borrow what they cannot afford to pay back that the problems start.


Isn't maxing out your overdraft every month exactly that..........being unable to pay it off.

I'm in an account where I already get charged £1 a day for being in my overdraft. I'm not in my overdraft tho as I've tailored my spending to suit.

Some people simply don't care when the put their card in the wall.... until the money stops.


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## asjam86

The banks agree your overdraft with you.

If they don't want you to live beyond your means or are worried about your current financial situation they could re-negotiate your overdraft. I don't see how you can blame people for using their _sometimes_ MASSIVE overdrafts because the banks let them get away with it.

Sorry I may not of meant RBS. Sorry I heard it on the news and was so outraged I just typed away like a mad man. I'm enraged and I don't bank with them. Banks are just taking the p***.


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## Glasgow_Gio

ALANSHR said:


> news flash, 56 minutes ago:
> Halifax and Bank of Scotland account holders to be hit by daily overdraft charges and loss of interest payments
> 
> I bet they are still getting a bonus, dont you!


Why not get a reward account.

Pay in over £1000 a month (salary) and get £5 a month free (£60 a year)

If you go into your overdraft you don't get your £5 for that month and get £1 a day o/d fees.

Works for me. No overdraft anymore and £60 a year extra for whatever i want.


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## Sonic

Can a mod change the title for anyone else joining this thread as we've established RBS aren't included in this.


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## Glasgow_Gio

asjam86 said:


> The banks agree your overdraft with you.
> 
> If they don't want you to live beyond your means or are worried about your current financial situation they could re-negotiate your overdraft. *I don't see how you can blame people for using their sometimes MASSIVE overdrafts because the banks let them get away with it. *
> 
> Sorry I may not of meant RBS. Sorry I heard it on the news and was so outraged I just typed away like a mad man. I'm enraged and I don't bank with them. Banks are just taking the p***.


Are you serious?. I suppose you can't blame the 70 stone man for eating a huge amount of fatty foods because the food was available??

One word - Responsibility


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## MattDuffy88

Glasgow_Gio said:


> Are you serious?. I suppose you can't blame the 70 stone man for eating a huge amount of fatty foods because ithe food was available??
> 
> One word - Responsibility


Not just responsibility, restraint as well.


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## The Cueball

I guess someone has to balance things up here, so knowing some of the working in banks, all I will say in their defence is this:

I have never seen or heard of any banks forcing people to use their overdrafts/loans/mortgages....

Yes, they were not prudent enough when lending money out, and yes they were trying to achieve targets as much as the next business....

But he's the problem:

People, (call them consumers/customers whatever) have a duty to ensure that THEY can afford the repayments etc etc....regardless of what the bonus hungry person behind the desk says....

It is the exact same nonsense that has increased the "sue someone" culture in this country..

You are responsible for spending YOUR money....and here is a tip - *spend less than you earn!*

You are responsible for borrowing what you can afford to repay...

No one else!!!!!!

And as for the "Christmas is coming" remarks...how about teaching kids the value of money, instead of buying the latest crappy plastic toy for them?

Why not sit them down and teach them what is going on in the world, and although you would love to give them everything they want, they have to stop being so greedy....

:wall::wall::wall:

I used to get an orange for Christmas...but at least I knew my family never got into debt for it...a kiss and a cuddle was good enough for me.

Thankfully I was raised correctly so that hurtful comments from people in debt, but with "flashy must have China produced s**t" didn't bother me.

:thumb:


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## Deanoecosse

Viper said:


> It's fairly easy to slip even just literally a couple of quid into your agreed overdraft for a variety of reasons, and that's a world away from being £2500 or more in the black.
> 
> So to have a single blanket charge that costs exactly the same for both of those situations is ridiculous and why the graduated % system was fair.


thats probably WHY its being introduced. Most people wont be into an overdraft by a large amount and maybe end up being charged £1-2 per month for it. Now if they go just a couple of £ into it for a week, there's £7 in fees for the bank, a nice little earner for them


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## VIPER

Sonic said:


> Can a mod change the title for anyone else joining this thread as we've established RBS aren't included in this.


If we're _sure_ then I'll change it, yes.


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## who45

> It's unfortunate for some who use the overdraft facility and then cannot claw tehir way back out of it but that simply means you haven't managed your money correctly be it now or in the past and must finally stop living a lifestyle of credit or be punished for it.


bit harsh imo - sometimes it simply isnt possible when things happen


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## perks

The Cueball said:


> I guess someone has to balance things up here, so knowing some of the working in banks, all I will say in their defence is this:
> 
> I have never seen or heard of any banks forcing people to use their overdrafts/loans/mortgages....
> 
> Yes, they were not prudent enough when lending money out, and yes they were trying to achieve targets as much as the next business....
> 
> But he's the problem:
> 
> People, (call them consumers/customers whatever) have a duty to ensure that THEY can afford the repayments etc etc....regardless of what the bonus hungry person behind the desk says....
> 
> It is the exact same nonsense that has increased the "sue someone" culture in this country..
> 
> You are responsible for spending YOUR money....and here is a tip - *spend less than you earn!*
> 
> You are responsible for borrowing what you can afford to repay...
> 
> No one else!!!!!!
> 
> And as for the "Christmas is coming" remarks...how about teaching kids the value of money, instead of buying the latest crappy plastic toy for them?
> 
> Why not sit them down and teach them what is going on in the world, and although you would love to give them everything they want, they have to stop being so greedy....
> 
> :wall::wall::wall:
> 
> I used to get an orange for Christmas...but at least I knew my family never got into debt for it...a kiss and a cuddle was good enough for me.
> 
> Thankfully I was raised correctly so that hurtful comments from people in debt, but with "flashy must have China produced s**t" didn't bother me.
> 
> :thumb:


I do agree, but as said before, your income can change very quickly and what was affordable quickly changes. If you're made redundant your mortgage won't pay itself, the finance on the car again won't pay itself
and well I'm sure the list of things that need paying is endless, so you are forced to use your overdraft.

Not entirely by the banks but they can see the trend. People are loosing work, overdrafts are being used more and they are trying to make a quick buck out of it themselves.

Not everyone is in debt because they party all day and **** all their money up against a wall.

It's going to make it all that little bit harder to get paid off if the rates continue to increase.


----------



## The Cueball

perks said:


> I do agree, but as said before, your income can change very quickly and what was affordable quickly changes. If you're made redundant your mortgage won't pay itself, the finance on the car again won't pay itself
> and well I'm sure the list of things that need paying is endless, so you are forced to use your overdraft.
> 
> Not entirely by the banks but they can see the trend. People are loosing work, overdrafts are being used more and they are retying to make a quick buck out of it themselves.
> 
> Not everyone is in debt because they party all day and **** all their money up against a wall.
> 
> It's going to make it all that little bit harder to get paid off if the rates continue to increase.


Finance, finance, finance....

:wall::wall::wall::wall:

Part of looking after yourself is planning for the worst, but IMO if you have something on finance you can't afford it.

I guess it's just the NOW NOW NOW attitude of some people....I have never wanted something sooooo bad, that I would sell my soul and financial well being for....

I guess some people are different...

And as nasty as it sounds, I am fed up with people blaming everything on other people.... this country needs more self respect and self control, and people need to start taking responsibility for their own actions and the outcome of those actions......

As Tyler Durden said: The things you own, end up owning you.

:thumb:


----------



## gt5500

The Cueball said:


> And as for the "Christmas is coming" remarks...how about teaching kids the value of money, instead of buying the latest crappy plastic toy for them?
> 
> Why not sit them down and teach them what is going on in the world, and although you would love to give them everything they want, they have to stop being so greedy....
> 
> :thumb:


God I am glad someone brought that up, its ridiculous. When I was younger my parents were poor and at christmas you got what they could afford, if they couldn't afford much you didn't get much. Christmas is coming is not a valid excuse for getting into debt, granted I get a bit skint at christmas but if it meant getting into debt I would simply spend less or let people know I can't afford presents this year.


----------



## Sonic

The Cueball said:


> I have never wanted something sooooo bad, that I would sell my soul and financial well being for....


Oh man.. you haven't lived!... 

And yes this is a joke!


----------



## Frothey

sorry, a bit O/T

Since I started selling finance, I've become more and more amazed at people's attitude - people who are majorly in arrears with mortgages, credit cards, loans, ccj's - and then get arsey when a finance company wont allow them to spend £25k on a car they "need". they seem to think everyone has the "right" to get heavily into debt.

as people have said, often things like unemployment come up, unexpected bills, etc, but i can guarantee most people with big overdrafts haven't had that problem. new designer trainers, watches, clothes and dare I say it WAXES aren't necessary for your well being!

I've got kids - my 8yr old is pestering me for an iphone as a couple of his friends have got one. i mean, ffs what does an 8yr old need a phone for, and an £800 at that! sometimes me and the missus feel like complete s**ts for not giving them things they want, but my parents made me work/earn stuff - why should he have it any different 
most people are too soft these days and use the "i had to do without, i don't want my kids to" excuse - well, it didn't kill me not having stuff, i'm sure even in these marketting led days it won't kill them.....

ps. Tyler Durden - a wise man.....


----------



## GTIKris

Cueball, whilst I agree that you should never sell your soul or financial stability for something you desire, you never know what is around the corner.

I know only to well when my own father died suddenly that life can be short and I think you have to make room to live some of your dreams, if that requires finance then so be it.

Now I am not advocating financing yourself up to the eyeballs and selling your soul to pay it back but life is all about balance. A little bit of finance for that car you dreamed of driving as a kid is no bad thing, as long as you can afford to pay it back.

Lets be honest, most people have to borrow huge sums of money to purchase their first home. You could save all of your life and buy the house out right in cash, but by the time you did that you would have very little time left to enjoy it...

People have to weigh up the choice, and the cost and make their own decision in the end


----------



## Sonic

GTIKris said:


> Lets be honest, most people have to borrow huge sums of money to purchase their first home. You could save all of your life and buy the house out right in cash, but by the time you did that you would have very little time left to enjoy it...


Not to mention all the rent you've probably paid out in that time anyway, meaning it would take longer to save to buy the house outright.

Sometimes borrowing can be a very prudent thing to do with financial gain - and no i dont get a big bonus cheque at end of each year!

But i agree with the "don't buy what you can't afford" principle, it has stitched this country up, and half of the world, quite royally.


----------



## asjam86

Your dam right I'm serious. 

Hmmm lets look 
A customer wants a loan. 
You look at affordability. mmm doesn't quite stack up.
But you give him the money anyway. 

This is what the banks have been doing this is why were in the mess were in. Yes people buy inane rubbish they don't need including waxes. I haven't brought a peice of detailing gear nor computer equipment since I learnt my wife was being made redundant. It is about responsibility but whilst we've got so many jobsworths and chavs who'll bleed the system for all its worth and then the banks complain and make life miserable for those of us who are struggling but getting by. 

Do I blame the banks for the mess were in - hell yes. 
Do I think the banks should get their bonuses - Hell no i don't
Do I feel that the public are getting the rough deal over what the banks have done - yes yes I do and I bet the 2.5million out of a job right now would agree with me. 

As for your metaphore, fatty man couldn't get out of bed so how the hell did he get fed. Is it that someone fed him? If someone had refused to feed him then he'd of never been bed ridden because he'd HAVE TO GET UP TO EAT SOMETHING. So the feeder = Bank. The fatty = joe public chav bleeding the system dry.


----------



## VIPER

Hmmm got to make a point about the finance thing - yes I see the argument saying that if you can't afford to buy something outright in one go then technically you can't afford it, but should that prevent someone still having it if they can manage the payments?

Mr Smith might have a job that pays very little, and through no fault of his own, the industry in which his skills are employed is just at the low end of the spectrum. He works his @rse off all day every day and by the end of the week/month by the time he's paid his bills he's not got very much left. Certainly not enough to buy himself a car, or new things for his home etc. outright. But should he be forced to forever travel on the bus and live in poverty if he can get those things, manage the payments on them without getting into difficulty?


----------



## asjam86

Viper said:


> Hmmm got to make a point about the finance thing - yes I see the argument saying that if you can't afford to buy something outright in one go then technically you can't afford it, but should that prevent someone still having it if they can manage the payments?
> 
> Mr Smith might have a job that pays very little, and through no fault of his own, the industry in which his skills are employed is just at the low end of the spectrum. He works his @rse off all day every day and by the end of the week/month by the time he's paid his bills he's not got very much left. Certainly not enough to buy himself a car, or new things for his home etc. outright. But should he be forced to forever travel on the bus and live in poverty if he can get those things, manage the payments on them without getting into difficulty?


Now tell me what happens to Mr Smith when all of a sudden his bank tells him his interest rates are going up 300%. Is Mr Smith going to make more money? Work even harder? Get a third job? But Mr Smith can't get overtime and infact there thinking about 3 day a week because of the downturn. Well it must be Mr Smiths fault for being 'reckless' with his money.


----------



## Gruffs

Viper said:


> Hmmm got to make a point about the finance thing - yes I see the argument saying that if you can't afford to buy something outright in one go then technically you can't afford it, but should that prevent someone still having it if they can manage the payments?
> 
> Mr Smith might have a job that pays very little, and through no fault of his own, the industry in which his skills are employed is just at the low end of the spectrum. He works his @rse off all day every day and by the end of the week/month by the time he's paid his bills he's not got very much left. Certainly not enough to buy himself a car, or new things for his home etc. outright. But should he be forced to forever travel on the bus and live in poverty if he can get those things, manage the payments on them without getting into difficulty?


No, Up until the point where Mr Smith is made redundant. Then the car, every little gadget, toy and unecessary expense is either sold or cancelled. Debts paid and sitting in the dark with a blanket on and a board game instead of the telly. Use a candle, it's heat and light. Apply for the relevant benefits. If you can't settle the debt, you are bankrupt.

That is the cold, harsh reality. Is it fair? Probably not.


----------



## VIPER

Mr Smith buys himself a G220 (on finance), sets up as a mobile detailer and rakes in £350+ per day, - sorted!  

I'm joking, obviously :lol:


----------



## Frothey

it depends whether he bought something he knew he could afford, or did the "**** it, i'll borrow the maximum I can as the bloke next doors got a new car, don't want to look cheap". 

I'm not saying don't finance something, just make sure that you can afford the finance if things change. you only have to look at the people who moaning that they were in the **** when mortgage rates went up .5% - their fault or the banks? the bank never forced them to buy the 5 bed house when they only need a 3.

likewise, what are people who have had lower mortgage payments doing with the money left over.....


----------



## Grizzle

Viper said:


> Mr Smith buys himself a G220 (on finance), sets up as a mobile detailer and rakes in £350+ per day, - sorted!
> 
> I'm joking, obviously :lol:


haha i was going to say any job going with you? lol


----------



## Grizzle

In The Detail said:


> I'm not saying don't finance something, just make sure that you can afford the finance if things change. you only have to look at the people who moaning that they were in the **** when mortgage rates went up .5% - their fault or the banks? the bank never forced them to buy the 5 bed house when they only need a 3.


Would you not say its part banks fault for not giving the proper advice but instead giving it to them an taking the commission on the sale??


----------



## Gruffs

Grizzle said:


> Would you not say its part banks fault for not giving the proper advice but instead giving it to them an taking the commission on the sale??


I would say that if they had only borrowed what the y needed to instead of the max they could have afforded, they could have paid the mortgage off quicker, had savings, traded up to the 5 bed instead.


----------



## The Cueball

Viper said:


> Hmmm got to make a point about the finance thing - yes I see the argument saying that if you can't afford to buy something outright in one go then technically you can't afford it, but should that prevent someone still having it if they can manage the payments?
> 
> Mr Smith might have a job that pays very little, and through no fault of his own, the industry in which his skills are employed is just at the low end of the spectrum. He works his @rse off all day every day and by the end of the week/month by the time he's paid his bills he's not got very much left. Certainly not enough to buy himself a car, or new things for his home etc. outright. But should he be forced to forever travel on the bus and live in poverty if he can get those things, manage the payments on them without getting into difficulty?


Well I am in the position that I could afford to finance a nice car, lets say for example a brand new 911 turbo, I have just checked, and I could do that. 

But I would not be able to afford to pay cash for it, nor could I afford to keep up the repayments of I lost my job...

So to me it's very simple - I can't get it. 

:thumb:


----------



## perks

The Cueball said:


> Well I am in the position that I could afford to finance a nice car, lets say for example a brand new 911 turbo, I have just checked, and I could do that.
> 
> But I would not be able to afford to pay cash for it, nor could I afford to keep up the repayments of I lost my job...
> 
> So to me it's very simple - I can't get it.
> 
> :thumb:


What if it was a 1.4 diesel fiesta that you needed to get as the only place taking on is nearly 60 miles away from your home address, public transport costs considerably more than the £150 a month the finance repayments would be, and you of course need to work.

And then you are laid off from there too.

Selling the car wouldn't pay off the finance and you still need to get to interviews, despite their infrequent appearences and eventually (I hope) be in a job that will require transport.

Then you move back in with the folks because you can't afford rent and your car's insurer tell you it's a higher risk area that will cost you more again.

Any suggestions now?

Or I guess you would have had the foresight to not have taken the job in the first place and hung around for a more secure one locally that you could have walked to??


----------



## Gruffs

perks said:


> What if it was a 1.4 diesel fiesta that you needed to get as the only place taking on is nearly 60 miles away from your home address, public transport costs considerably more than the £150 a month the finance repayments would be, and you of course need to work.
> 
> And then you are laid off from there too.
> 
> Selling the car wouldn't pay off the finance and you still need to get to interviews, despite their infrequent appearences and eventually (I hope) be in a job that will require transport.
> 
> Then you move back in with the folks because you can't afford rent and your car's insurer tell you it's a higher risk area that will cost you more again.
> 
> Any suggestions now?
> 
> Or I guess you would have had the foresight to not have taken the job in the first place and hung around for a more secure one locally that you could have walked to??


Buy a £600 banger until you can afford the fiesta.

There is always an alternative. It just might not be an attractive one.

Of course with the scrappage scheme. The govt. have got a lot more folk into debt and into the viscious cycle. Short term gain for long term pain.


----------



## Jace

In The Detail said:


> just because it's offered, doesn't mean you have to use it.....


Agreed :thumb:

I have a £50 OD ( low at my request) & feel really bad if I do dip into it, but at least I know come next pay packet its paid off.

"Live beyond your means" seems to be the family moto for many these days

I always look on the dark side, buying my current house, we/I made sure we could pay it on one wage packet....


----------



## The Cueball

perks said:


> What if it was a 1.4 diesel fiesta that you needed to get as the only place taking on is nearly 60 miles away from your home address, public transport costs considerably more than the £150 a month the finance repayments would be, and you of course need to work.
> 
> And then you are laid off from there too.
> 
> Selling the car wouldn't pay off the finance and you still need to get to interviews, despite their infrequent appearences and eventually (I hope) be in a job that will require transport.
> 
> Then you move back in with the folks because you can't afford rent and your car's insurer tell you it's a higher risk area that will cost you more again.
> 
> Any suggestions now?
> 
> Or I guess you would have had the foresight to not have taken the job in the first place and hung around for a more secure one locally that you could have walked to??


I was only using it an example of how people get into trouble...

As I have said, I buy things with cash, so if I were to take a job so far away, I would make sure that I had the proper transport BEFORE taking the job.

I drive a £600 car to my work....I don't have any need to finance a car.

You have perfectly proved what i am talking about, people making poor decisions and "needing" things on credit, then realising that they are up the river without a paddle...only to blame it on everyone but themselves.

I'm sorry I have no suggestions on how to help someone in the situation described.

What I can tell you is when I was classed as "unemployable" I stayed with my parents, and done odd jobs here and there in order to afford bus fare to all my job interviews.... I asked people to give me lifts here and there...

Basically, I done what it took to keep myself out of debt and tried to be positive....

I didn't have a computer and internet, or even a TV, I had 1 suit, and a pair of shoes with a hole in the bottom.

:thumb:


----------



## Frothey

Gruffs said:


> Of course with the scrappage scheme. The govt. have got a lot more folk into debt and into the viscious cycle. Short term gain for long term pain.


we've done 273 scrappage cars (at last count), and i can count on two hands the amount of them which were financed. by and large, people who drive "scrappers" who are taking advantage of the scheme are people who buy a new car, run it into the ground, scrap it, buy a new one, run it into the ground, etc,etc. all of a sudden they are getting £2k min instead of £50 for their car. but that may just be the area I live in.

lets face it, people who can afford to have a "newer" car on finance are already driving them - people who can "only" afford £500 for a car can't afford the finance on a £6k+ balance - or they would already be driving one, scrappage or not......



The Cueball said:


> I had 1 suit, and a pair of shoes with a hole in the bottom.
> 
> :thumb:


I don't even have 1 suit, I'm a car salesman :lol:


----------



## Frothey

The Cueball said:


> You have perfectly proved what i am talking about, people making poor decisions and "needing" things on credit


not all credit is bad though, I'd rather borrow at 2.9% than pay cash......


----------



## perks

Gruffs said:


> Buy a £600 banger until you can afford the fiesta.
> 
> There is always an alternative. It just might not be an attractive one.
> 
> Of course with the scrappage scheme. The govt. have got a lot more folk into debt and into the viscious cycle. Short term gain for long term pain.


There really isn't always an alternative, £600 for some is an unobtainable figure, whatsmore, how many times will a £600 fiesta do a 600 mile a week commute before the reair bills start coming in?

Then you weigh up the fuel economy, the tax difference and that 2005 fiesta is a lot more economic and cost effective.


----------



## Glasgow_Gio

asjam86 said:


> Your dam right I'm serious.
> 
> *As for your metaphore, fatty man couldn't get out of bed so how the hell did he get fed. Is it that someone fed him? If someone had refused to feed him then he'd of never been bed ridden because he'd HAVE TO GET UP TO EAT SOMETHING. So the feeder = Bank. The fatty = joe public chav bleeding the system dry.*


But the fatty man didn't get fat overnight he got himself fatter and fatter and fatter to the point where you are correct - someone else fed him.

However, what about the lead up...up to what....25/30 stone if not more, he was feeding himself......knowing fine well where he'd end up.

Is the fatty man blameless and it was the feeder responsible then? Nope.


----------



## The Cueball

In The Detail said:


> I don't even have 1 suit, I'm a *dodgy* car salesman :lol:


EFA... 

Only kidding! :wave:

:thumb:



In The Detail said:


> not all credit is bad though, I'd rather borrow at 2.9% than pay cash......


Yeah, there are times that it can be used for your advantage...

:thumb:


----------



## Frothey

perks said:


> There really isn't always an alternative, £600 for some is an unobtainable figure,


if £600 is unobtainable, how would £6k be obtainable?


----------



## Frothey

The Cueball said:


> EFA...


Have we met?

:thumb:

I must be a **** one - I'm talking people out of financing a new car to run around in some clapped out POS :lol:


----------



## The Cueball

In The Detail said:


> Have we met?
> 
> :thumb:
> 
> I must be a **** one - I'm talking people out of financing a new car to run around in some clapped out POS :lol:


yeah, you sold me a right old banger....

and it was on 350% APR 

...but YOU said that I could afford it.....

:thumb:


**I am only pulling your leg mate, not trying to be serious in any way shape of form.....(and for the benefit of everyone else)....I'm sure if you do ever meet me, I'll get a kick in the [email protected]**


----------



## Frothey

The Cueball said:


> ...but YOU said that I could afford it.....


I offer a competent, ethical and transparent presentation of the products that are available to you.

my mate Terry outside in the blacked out 7 series offers "competetive loans" if you can't get one of mine


----------



## asjam86

Glasgow_Gio said:


> But the fatty man didn't get fat overnight he got himself fatter and fatter and fatter to the point where you are correct - someone else fed him.
> 
> However, what about the lead up...up to what....25/30 stone if not more, he was feeding himself......knowing fine well where he'd end up.
> 
> Is the fatty man blameless and it was the feeder responsible then? Nope.


Fatty mans responsible up to the point of being bed ridden. Then the person feeding him is responsible. Same has happened with the banks. The banks lent, lent and lent some more so fatty man kept consuming but once he got beyond his means (past affordability) someone stepped in and said here have some more credit on us. Fatty man then realises that credit cards are easy to get and gorges himself until he's a million stone and is now in huge difficulty repaying what he owes and owes a lot more than he can ever cope with. If Fatty man didn't have a feeder he'd still be 30 stone not bedridden and not expecting us tax payers to bail him out his bed into a special vehicle.


----------



## The Cueball

asjam86 said:


> Fatty mans responsible up to the point of being bed ridden. Then the person feeding him is responsible. Same has happened with the banks. The banks lent, lent and lent some more so fatty man kept consuming but once he got beyond his means (past affordability) someone stepped in and said here have some more credit on us. Fatty man then realises that credit cards are easy to get and gorges himself until he's a million stone and is now in huge difficulty repaying what he owes and owes a lot more than he can ever cope with. If Fatty man didn't have a feeder he'd still be 30 stone not bedridden and not expecting us tax payers to bail him out his bed into a special vehicle.


Rubbish!!!! :wall:

Fatty man can still say NO, he is still responsible!!!!

He is bed ridden, not incapable of thought and speech........

They only got the food for him, never forced it down... (as far as I know...)

The banks only gave credit cards...never forced anyone to spend on them!

:thumb:


----------



## Frothey

interesting arguement that - if I go down the local "desperate singles" place and pick up a munter or two, I'm sure my missus would realise it's the clubs fault for luring me in and supplying said munters. Not mine at all. I had no choice.

In fact, I'm off now to test the theory.....


----------



## asjam86

I'm not saying fatty mans not blameless but the ease of credit doesn't help the situation. He's still morbidly obese even before being bed ridden. If you in silly amounts of debt or living beyond your means what most tend to do is rob peter to pay paul or get more credit, instead of seeking professional help. If fatty mans feeder refused to feed him in the first place and he couldn't obtain any more credit because he's living beyond his means it'd force him into the corner to seek help.


----------



## gt5500

asjam86 said:


> Fatty mans responsible up to the point of being bed ridden. Then the person feeding him is responsible. Same has happened with the banks. The banks lent, lent and lent some more so fatty man kept consuming but once he got beyond his means (past affordability) someone stepped in and said here have some more credit on us. Fatty man then realises that credit cards are easy to get and gorges himself until he's a million stone and is now in huge difficulty repaying what he owes and owes a lot more than he can ever cope with. If Fatty man didn't have a feeder he'd still be 30 stone not bedridden and not expecting us tax payers to bail him out his bed into a special vehicle.


You sir are exactly what is wrong with this country and the reason the economy got screwed, mr blame someone else, sue someone else, do whatever you can to make sure its not your fault. Fatty man may have had a feeder but unless he was retarded I can't see why he couldn't have said "enough is enough I need to go on a diet, thanks but no thanks mr feeder man". My car can do 140mph (this is not a brag just a fact) if I got caught doing 140mph could I then wriggle out of it by claiming that BMW should have made sure it only went 70mph and not offered me the chance to go faster?


----------



## perks

In fairness this is going to extremes. There are of course those who will continue to live beyond their means regardless of consequence.

It's just a shame that those in *genuine* need are forced to pay more and more wherever the lender sees fit.

It would to me seem to be a method of ensuring you are kept in debt for longer in order to be more profitable for said lenders.

I endeavour to live without finance and debt the second mine is paid off, but until then I'm left bent over the desk ok the finance manager until he or she has had their fill.


----------



## GTIKris

Back on topic!

Looking at some of the news articles it seems if you are sat permanently on your overdraft limit you will be better off after the changes.



> For example, a customer who maintains a constant overdraft balance of minus £2,500 on the bank's standard current account for a year would have previously paid £487 in interest; in the year to December 2010, they would pay £365.


Taken from here:

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/saving...icle.html?in_article_id=492223&in_page_id=507

Its the people who only use a small overdraft infrequently this will hurt... Mind you it goes up to £2 a day over 2.5K and unarranged is a £5 a day!

Basically, rather then borrow £100, you might as well go whole hog and borrow £2500. It will cost the same! Cheeky barstewards are actually penalising people who are prudent with their cash!


----------



## RisingPower

The Cueball said:


> Thankfully I was raised correctly so that hurtful comments from people in debt, but with "flashy must have China produced s**t" didn't bother me.


Was wondering where your jag came from


----------



## RisingPower

The Cueball said:


> Finance, finance, finance....
> 
> :wall::wall::wall::wall:
> 
> Part of looking after yourself is planning for the worst, but IMO if you have something on finance you can't afford it.
> 
> I guess it's just the NOW NOW NOW attitude of some people....I have never wanted something sooooo bad, that I would sell my soul and financial well being for....
> 
> I guess some people are different...
> 
> And as nasty as it sounds, I am fed up with people blaming everything on other people.... this country needs more self respect and self control, and people need to start taking responsibility for their own actions and the outcome of those actions......
> 
> As Tyler Durden said: The things you own, end up owning you.
> 
> :thumb:


Sorry but I disagree with you there about getting something on finance. There just simply wouldn't be companies like oracle finance if that were the case.

It's spending responsibly which is the solution.


----------



## Avanti

somouk said:


> Im an RBS customer and they requested to remove my overdraft completely because people really are taking the mick with them.
> 
> At the end of the day an over draft is a loan of money from the bank, they are perfectly with in their rights to charge you for this.
> 
> It's unfortunate for some who use the overdraft facility and then cannot claw tehir way back out of it but that simply means you haven't managed your money correctly be it now or in the past and must finally stop living a lifestyle of credit or be punished for it.


It is easy to look at it like that, however those that go overdrawn are not always those that live beyond their means, I use my halifax account as a daily spending, I do go overdrawn at the end of the month from time to time by less than £10, however the 3p overdraft charge will now become £2 or £3 which is quite a jump, coupled with the fact they are not paying interest on the credit balance anymore. What annoys me even more so is that I read in the papers that they are laying off 500 staff etc, so where is this extra revenue going?


----------



## RisingPower

Midlands Detailing said:


> Maybe so, but it still fueled by greed, by the bank and the consumer.


Sorry, but fueling by greed is what causes demand and what keeps the economy running. If there were no greed we'd all go out and just get bread and water to eat, lada's, books to read and no games.

Imagine what would happen to the economy then.


----------



## Brazo

I am not with HBOS and fortuitously after many years in the red now firmly in the black:thumb:

However I have read into this (coz I'm sad) and apparently its an unfair change in the T&C's when the FSA have requested banks do not make unfair changes to customers accounts whilst the bank charges thing is settled.

A very, very useful thread here 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.u...-complaint-about-halifax-new.html#post2512610


----------



## Avanti

Thanks Brazo, normally I don't bother with stuff like that, but this time I think I willthe price jump is disgusting.


----------



## kh904

The Cueball said:


> Finance, finance, finance....
> 
> :wall::wall::wall::wall:
> 
> Part of looking after yourself is planning for the worst, but IMO if you have something on finance you can't afford it.
> 
> I guess it's just the NOW NOW NOW attitude of some people....I have never wanted something sooooo bad, that I would sell my soul and financial well being for....
> 
> I guess some people are different...
> 
> And as nasty as it sounds, I am fed up with people blaming everything on other people.... this country needs more self respect and self control, and people need to start taking responsibility for their own actions and the outcome of those actions......
> 
> As Tyler Durden said: The things you own, end up owning you.
> 
> :thumb:


I have to agree, I save damn hard each month and I think very carefully before I part with my money.
If I wanted to buy something, I'll save for it, and by the time i've finished saving for it I can pay for it all upfront. If I changed my mind, then I proved to myself that I didn't really need it in the first place!

I take 2 holidays abroad a year which I save up for before hand, and while I do like to treat myself now and again, I don't live a lifestyle beyond my means.

However, I will have to take out a mortgage when I buy my first home but i've helped myself by saving around 20% deposit, and looking for a place that is reasonably affordable and realistic.

I honestly feel (judging by the people I know), that they buy on impulse and trying to impress other people, while getting into debt, and then later complain that they have no money, and deserve a payrise.

I also understand that circumstances can dramatically change, and while people should have contingency plans, they should be treated fairly and with compassion, not taken advantage of.


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## -tom-

Viper said:


> Can anyone clued up just qualify which banks we're talking about here as saying 'Halifax/RBS' being mentioned in the same sentence isn't correct as RBS are not connected to Halifax at all to my knowledge?


Hi Viper and hi the rest of dw, know this maybe suicide but i work for RBS, RBS has nothink to do with Halfifax LLoyds and Bank of Scotland. Peopel get the Royal Bank Of Scotland which i work for, confused with the Bank Of Scotland which is part of the LLoyds tsb/halifax group nothink to do with RBS.

This is somethink at presant rbs dont do at all charge for having an agread overdraft if u r in it you get a flat monthly fee like for example say u have a 500 overdraft it will coast u like £3 amonth neither do natwest.

RBS/Natwest have recentley changed the charges people pay if they go over ther limit its not as bad as it used to be more info can be find hear 
http://www.rbs.co.uk/personal/current-accounts/g4/overdraft-pricing.ashx

If u want to leave your current bank and have a hi overdraft on best advice get to other banks see if they will match you current deal.

hope that helps a bit it is unfair i am with both banks, and will be closing halifax soon,

any questions pls ask

dont kill me thow


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## The Cueball

RisingPower said:


> Was wondering where your jag came from


Is there a place cheeper than China???? 

And, anyway, it was paid for in CASH! 

:thumb:


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## asjam86

gt5500 said:


> You sir are exactly what is wrong with this country and the reason the economy got screwed, mr blame someone else, sue someone else, do whatever you can to make sure its not your fault. Fatty man may have had a feeder but unless he was retarded I can't see why he couldn't have said "enough is enough I need to go on a diet, thanks but no thanks mr feeder man". My car can do 140mph (this is not a brag just a fact) if I got caught doing 140mph could I then wriggle out of it by claiming that BMW should have made sure it only went 70mph and not offered me the chance to go faster?


You are very much mistaken on what I'm trying to put across here. Mr fatty man is to blame for being morbidly obesed. But if fattyman didn't have a feeder he wouldn't be bed ridden. What I'm saying is the banks made credit easy to get. They allowed people to go over what they can afford to pay back, why did the banks allow this to happen? I'm not saying those who are constantly in debt and aquire more credit aren't to blame they are. They should be looking after their money better. They shouldn't go out looking for more credit to pay off another credit card. But when affordability is breached and they still get loans, what on earths going on? Would you lend someone £1000 of your own money to someone without a job who you know owes alot of money to other people? These people who do this kind of thing are people with private reg plates on their cars whilst they default on payments, the kind of people who justify having internet and sky+ whilst they cannot afford it.

What I'm trying to say is that banks have over lent to 'sub prime' candidates thats a fact something you cannot deny. Where would we be right now if they didn't lend to 'sub prime'? Its the greediness of the banks seeing interest rates on loans and credit cards going up for these people who are in a poor predicament.

The culture is to blame like all chavs out there they want their giro for nothing, they'll even go to the extent of injuring themselves to claim disability to get £25 more. These vermine are the very people who are bringing down our society and the problem is society lets them. Why is it now that you can be discharged from a bankruptcy order after 12 months? It used to be 5 years. Could it be so that the banks can begin lending again at extorsionate rates and do they think thats the right thing to do? Obviously they do.

For the record I have never taken dole money, never pulled a sicky nor have I ever sued anybody. Those no win no fee people should be banned.


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## Glasgow_Gio

So if the bank gives you credit that YOU know you cannot afford to repay.....it's the banks fault and you're blameless?

End of the day the banks only offer money - it's the person sitting opposite (who knows their financial limits) that accepts it. So for me the banks are stupid for offering it but the responsibility lies squarely on the person accepting.


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## Gruffs

All this still does not change the fact that when you borrow money you take a risk.

The decision to take that risk lies with you and only you. If the risk is acceptable, then borrowing money is acceptable.

It is all of our own doing. If we weren't daft enough to take unacceptable risks, the banks would have no dodgy customers to 'screw over'.


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## The Cueball

asjam86 said:


> What I'm trying to say is that banks have over lent to 'sub prime' candidates thats a fact something you cannot deny. Where would we be right now if they didn't lend to 'sub prime'? Its the greediness of the banks seeing interest rates on loans and credit cards going up for these people who are in a poor predicament.


I do not want this to come over as pedantic, but it's not the banks that decide if someone is a credit risk or not...

They use a system, that 99.9% of companies use (the consumer side is Experian...you may have heard of it?).

Now this system has been around for many, many years, and it is quite simply serious flawed, although I do believe that is has recently under gone a radical re-think...

You will always be classed as a good credit risk if you are meeting your minimum payments every month....

They never checked what level of debt you had, and if you could actually afford any more.... all they checked was:

Is Mr Smith paying on time:

Credit card 1 - yes
Credit card 2 - yes
Credit card 3 - yes
Store card 1 - yes
Store card 2 - yes

And so on....

The system was not designed to say, hang on a minute, Mr Smith only earns £20,000 a year, and his total credit limits are now £50,000, with balances of £32,000...this guy is in trouble....

So when the banks were trying to sell things (make money - god forbid ), they looked at his bank account - well he is paying money in, he has a job....and his credit rating is good, as he is paying all his creditors on time.

The only person who knows the FULL truth is Mr Smith....

So, I'm sorry to disagree with you (again), but:

*It's still down to personal responsibility........*

Or, let me put it another way...most modern cars are able to travel at well over 100mph...But do you go out on the road and do this, because your car maker says his car can do it??? 

NO.... why? Because YOU know it's wrong to do it, and in some circumstances very dangerous!

(well I would hope that is the case )

:thumb:


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## GTIKris

Gruffs said:


> All this still does not change the fact that when you borrow money you take a risk.


Gruffs, you have hit the nail on the head. The root cause of this credit crunch was the underestimate of risk.

All because of a new type of investment vehicle and some bad maths when calculating the risk and returns... Banks thought they could not lose and hence started taking much bigger risks.

Banks underestimated the risk of lending to anyone and everyone, and fuelled by the banks attitude, the public underestimated the risk of borrowing.

Lessons will be learnt, lending is never without risk!


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## gt5500

The Cueball said:


> Or, let me put it another way...most modern cars are able to travel at well over 100mph...But do you go out on the road and do this, because your car maker says his car can do it???
> 
> NO.... why? Because YOU know it's wrong to do it, and in some circumstances very dangerous!
> 
> (well I would hope that is the case )
> 
> :thumb:


Oi stop stealing my analogies :lol:great minds hey.....its also a bit like saying, "I walked past a TV shop and they were selling a TV for £2000, the guy in the shop told me it was the best TV in the whole world and if I wanted one they could sell me one right now, I bought it and then a week later I realised I couldn't pay the mortgage so I went and shouted at the man in the TV shop for selling me something I couldn't afford". However you dress it up anyone that signs up for something they cannot afford is to blame not the person that offered it in the first place.


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## The Cueball

gt5500 said:


> Oi stop stealing my analogies :lol:great minds hey.....its also a bit like saying, "I walked past a TV shop and they were selling a TV for £2000, the guy in the shop told me it was the best TV in the whole world and if I wanted one they could sell me one right now, I bought it and then a week later I realised I couldn't pay the mortgage so I went and shouted at the man in the TV shop for selling me something I couldn't afford". However you dress it up anyone that signs up for something they cannot afford is to blame not the person that offered it in the first place.


Sorry!

I didn't notice you had already covered it....



:thumb:


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## asjam86

Banks work off your credit rating. 

But banks also have to complete (now) an affordability assesment which takes account of your incomings and outgoings to see if they can afford the repayments. Why is it that they only introduce this now AFTER the event? Wouldn't it of been more prudent not to look at some mystical figure and look at whether they can physically afford it?


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## The Cueball

asjam86 said:


> Banks work off your credit rating.


So therefore it is not up to the banks who is a good risk or not, as they don't do the credit ratings. Thanks for finally agreeing to something I have said! 



asjam86 said:


> But banks also have to complete (now) an affordability assesment which takes account of your incomings and outgoings to see if they can afford the repayments. Why is it that they only introduce this now AFTER the event? Wouldn't it of been more prudent not to look at some mystical figure and look at whether they can physically afford it?


The old system was set up long ago, when the country was a different place, long before the death of common sense, and people refusing to accept responsibility for their own decisions and the outsomes of those decisions...

The country has moved on, for the worse IMO, and this was something that was overlooked. Simply as that....

Now, because of everything that has happened, the controls are tighter, so hopefully there won't be a repeat of what has went on...

:thumb:


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## gt5500

The Cueball said:


> The old system was set up long ago, when the country was a different place, long before the death of common sense, and people refusing to accept responsibility for their own decisions and the outsomes of those decisions...
> 
> :thumb:


Spot on :thumb:


asjam86 said:


> Banks work off your credit rating.
> 
> But banks also have to complete (now) an affordability assesment which takes account of your incomings and outgoings to see if they can afford the repayments. Why is it that they only introduce this now AFTER the event? Wouldn't it of been more prudent not to look at some mystical figure and look at whether they can physically afford it?


Why should it be the banks job to see if you can afford it? thats your responsibility end of. The reason they do the affordability assesment now is because the economy got screwed over by morons that couldn't work out for them selves whether or not they could afford it, turns out most couldn't. Like cueball rightly says if people had common sense and responsibilty the old system would have worked fine because people wouldn't have been trying to borrow more then they can afford. I am afraid to say nowadays its all getting stupid, soon people will be complaining that the walked into the road because there wasn't a fence to stop them (this probably has already happened).


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## bidderman1969

bugger, run out of popcorn


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## Gruffs

gt5500 said:


> Why should it be the banks job to see if you can afford it? thats your responsibility end of. The reason they do the affordability assesment now is because the economy got screwed over by morons that couldn't work out for them selves whether or not they could afford it, turns out most couldn't.


And now, no-one gets credit. If they do it's at a STUPID APR. Mortgages are at a low % but with a 60% LTV which is almost impossible to obtain because of the artificially inflated house prices.

Government schemes force us into poorly built, crammed together ****box new housing estates that people work damned hard to buy only for the council to give the local family of chavs for nowt because they are 'unemployable'.

I'm sticking all my money in the mattress and sodding off to a place that appreciates that the missus and i bothered to work to get careers.


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## mba

Gruffs said:


> And now, no-one gets credit. If they do it's at a STUPID APR. Mortgages are at a low % but with a 60% LTV which is almost impossible to obtain because of the artificially inflated house prices.
> 
> Government schemes force us into poorly built, crammed together ****box new housing estates that people work damned hard to buy only for the council to give the local family of chavs for nowt because they are 'unemployable'.
> 
> I'm sticking all my money in the mattress and sodding off to a place that appreciates that the missus and i bothered to work to get careers.


Amen to the Gruffs!!


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## Glasgow_Gio

Gruffs said:


> And now, no-one gets credit. If they do it's at a STUPID APR. Mortgages are at a low % but with a 60% LTV which is almost impossible to obtain because of the artificially inflated house prices.
> 
> Government schemes force us into poorly built, crammed together ****box new housing estates that people work damned hard to buy only for the council to give the local family of chavs for nowt because they are 'unemployable'.
> 
> I'm sticking all my money in the mattress and sodding off to a place that appreciates that the missus and i bothered to work to get careers.


Agreed. I'm currently discussing leaving the UK with the missus as I have offers from Dubai.


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## Grizzle

Glasgow_Gio said:


> Agreed. I'm currently discussing leaving the UK with the missus as I have offers from Dubai.


Can i be your Tea boy???.... i need out of the UK too.


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## Glasgow_Gio

I'm more of a coffee man Graham.

I'm thinking the Dubai bubble may have burst (and i get the feeling the better half doesn't want to live so far away from friends and family).

So it looks like i'll be taxed to the hilt for the foreseeable future.


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## perks

maggi112 said:


> Wait for the letter to come through I would say. Is this the same Perks?


It is indeed. How ya doing.


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## Mike Hunt

Glasgow_Gio said:


> I'm more of a coffee man Graham.
> 
> I'm thinking the Dubai bubble may have burst (and i get the feeling the better half doesn't want to live so far away from friends and family).
> 
> So it looks like i'll be taxed to the hilt for the foreseeable future.


Ive spent a bit of time in the UAE, I would say do it for the standard of living and climate etc Im just waiting for my eldest to finish Uni then its bye bye GB


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## Maggi200

perks said:


> It is indeed. How ya doing.


Lol, ez! Not bad cheers. Had a ciggy yet?


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## perks

Nope, ready to pull the ears off a bear now though.


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## Rob_Quads

Avanti said:


> It is easy to look at it like that, however those that go overdrawn are not always those that live beyond their means, I use my halifax account as a daily spending, I do go overdrawn at the end of the month from time to time by less than £10, however the 3p overdraft charge will now become £2 or £3 which is quite a jump, coupled with the fact they are not paying interest on the credit balance anymore. What annoys me even more so is that I read in the papers that they are laying off 500 staff etc, so where is this extra revenue going?


If your going into your overdraft you are spending beyond your means. Next time maybe you will think before having that extra pint or magazine. Maybe stop luxuries for 1 month and build up your OWN buffer rather than relying on someone else.

The problem is in the last 10 years has taught people not to save and to spend money they don't have, made worse by recent happenings where those who have saved are getting screwed and not seeing the benifit.

Its not your money so you pay for it - simple as.


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## Avanti

Rob_Quads said:


> If your going into your overdraft you are spending beyond your means. Next time maybe you will think before having that extra pint or magazine. Maybe stop luxuries for 1 month and build up your OWN buffer rather than relying on someone else.
> 
> The problem is in the last 10 years has taught people not to save and to spend money they don't have, made worse by recent happenings where those who have saved are getting screwed and not seeing the benifit.
> 
> Its not your money so you pay for it - simple as.


WTF! Did you read my post? I have 3 HBOS accounts along with various barclays, lloyds and virgin accounts, I don't live for credit, only loan type thing I have is my Mortgage, which could be paid off tomorrow if I chose. I don't mind paying high taxes as long as people have jobs to go to, I'm not an I'm all right jack person, if the extra fees were saving jobs then all the good, and I don't drink pints or buy magazines :speechles


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## Rob_Quads

if you have all these accounts and your going into your overdraft in some of them then again its poor money management. If you can't manage to keep ALL the accounts in credit keep it simple and get 1 account. 
Your your choice to have lots of accounts and thus if you don't manage them properly then you pays the price

I have many accounts myself and move money around but if I and went overdrawn there is only 1 person to blame - me.


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## Avanti

Rob_Quads said:


> if you have all these accounts and your going into your overdraft in some of them then again its poor money management. If you can't manage to keep ALL the accounts in credit keep it simple and get 1 account.
> Your your choice to have lots of accounts and thus if you don't manage them properly then you pays the price
> 
> I have many accounts myself and move money around but if I and went overdrawn there is only 1 person to blame - me.


I wasn't moaning about going overdrawn or paying a fee at a % rate, I suppose it's like me saying to you, don't moan about your car being keyed , buy a house with a garage (sometimes life is not so simplistic as a one liner solution) , the point is not all that go overdrawn are living a high out of reach lifestyle that you are trying to portray. Like you I move money around. Several hundred times price increase maybe acceptable to you, it is obviously not acceptable to many that have posted on the thread 

And as you said in this thread money

If something slipped somebody's mind due to a holiday.....


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## Mick

i dunno if this will help any of you guys out but about 2 montsh ago i wasnt working and had been made redundant, i had gone into my (arranged) overdraft and got this letter through, like you guys i was miffed.

i had been with Hbos for 10 years and never been in overdraft now in my time of need they decide to shaft me after about a month paying £1 a day i found that on government benefits (£50 per week) i was finding it a major struggle to work myself out.

i went into th bank to pay a check and they requested a meeting with me then and there. they advised me as i was only about 100quid in they could give me a 300quid overdraft with no interest for £12.99 a month.

i went for it and upgraded to their "ultimate reward" account.

basically i pay 12.99 a month and this gives me free travel insurance, free mobile insurance and a few other perks.

now im working again it sucks paying 12.99 a month when im no longer overdrawn but to be fair i was paying almost a tenner for mobile insurance which i cancelled after i got this.

i know this wont help everyone but if your only slightly overdrawn and have mobile insurance this could be of benefit to some of you guys too!

HTH

mick :thumb:


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## Avanti

mick1985 said:


> i dunno if this will help any of you guys out but about 2 montsh ago i wasnt working and had been made redundant, i had gone into my (arranged) overdraft and got this letter through, like you guys i was miffed.
> 
> i had been with Hbos for 10 years and never been in overdraft now in my time of need they decide to shaft me after about a month paying £1 a day i found that on government benefits (£50 per week) i was finding it a major struggle to work myself out.
> 
> i went into th bank to pay a check and they requested a meeting with me then and there. they advised me as i was only about 100quid in they could give me a 300quid overdraft with no interest for £12.99 a month.
> 
> i went for it and upgraded to their "ultimate reward" account.
> 
> *basically i pay 12.99 a month and this gives me free travel insurance, free mobile insurance and a few other perks.*
> 
> now im working again it sucks paying 12.99 a month when im no longer overdrawn but to be fair i was paying almost a tenner for mobile insurance which i cancelled after i got this.
> 
> i know this wont help everyone but if your only slightly overdrawn and have mobile insurance this could be of benefit to some of you guys too!
> 
> HTH
> 
> mick :thumb:


Sorry to learn about you job loss, I just wouldn't dream about paying for a bank account, last time I was getting annual travel insurance worldwide cover including skiing was about £50, looking at my previous statements, Hbos have has literally pennies off me, the £1 or £2 is not going to cripple me , but it is an unjust increase for those that require it most, naturally if someone is going overdrawn month in month out, then they need to redress their budgeting that I agree with Rob Quad


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## organgrinder

I just hate the banks' duplicity and their short memory for those who bailed them out of their self induced mess.

Interest is a payment for risk.
Charging £1 a day is not interest, it is blatant profit making.
If the banks want an effective rate of interest of 30%, 50% or 100% then they should advertise it as such and be compared with their competitors.

A flat rate disadvatages those with smaller overdrafts much more, in percentage terms, than those with large overdrawn balances. Since interest is measured in percent, so should the charges.

Just to show what a bunch the banks are, I had a client looking to borrow money using the Government's EFG scheme where the borrower pays a higher rate of interest but the Government guarantees 75% of the loan. The scheme is designed for those who can't get borrowing under normal circumstances because they don't have the full amount of cash to start up or the assets to provide security (client has 20 years of a profitable track record).

Guess what the bank wants - a personal guarantee for 50% of the amount borrowed! In other words they want security of 125% with no good reason - I don't see much risk there. However exactly how is someone supposed to provide security for 50% of the amount borrowed when they are also supposed to show they don't have any other assets?

Banks want to be seen to be prepared to lend but you can be sure that there are more than enough hurdles thrown in to ensure that only a few actually get it. The banks deserve no respect for their current actions which are all centred on pushing their share price up and nothing to do with helping the country. As 75%/80% Government owned, I think they owe us a bit more than they are currently giving.


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## Mick

Avanti said:


> *Sorry to learn about you job loss*, I just wouldn't dream about paying for a bank account, last time I was getting annual travel insurance worldwide cover including skiing was about £50, looking at my previous statements, Hbos have has literally pennies off me, the £1 or £2 is not going to cripple me , but it is an unjust increase for those that require it most, naturally if someone is going overdrawn month in month out, then they need to redress their budgeting that I agree with Rob Quad


nah mate am back working again (at the same place that paid me off lol) but cheers for the thought.

as i said i know this may not help everyone, im in the mindset now that as i was paying almost a tenner for mobile insurance which i now get from my bank, im not really paying for my account. (i know i am but its saving me a tenner a month in insurance)

as the ops thread name people who dont work and rely on an overdraft for unforseen bills etc will suffer most as £31.0 a month for charges is a lot when you only get £200.0 in government benefits, i know, ive been there.


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## -tom-

OK guys putting my head on the block again i work for rbs branch based dealing in currant account rbs dont charge you to have a overdraft there is the monthly apr which comes out once a month we dont charge you for every £1 u r in the over draft rbs has all so changed and is the only bank along with sister bank natwest to reduce its chargers if you go over the agreed limit.


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## RisingPower

Rob_Quads said:


> if you have all these accounts and your going into your overdraft in some of them then again its poor money management. If you can't manage to keep ALL the accounts in credit keep it simple and get 1 account.
> Your your choice to have lots of accounts and thus if you don't manage them properly then you pays the price
> 
> I have many accounts myself and move money around but if I and went overdrawn there is only 1 person to blame - me.


Oh really? There is? I guess you haven't bothered to read the other pages of the thread then.


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## Andy_RX8

I got stung for this last month as an unexpected problem came up with a transfer of money, long story short i was charged for being in my overdraft.

Halifax/BOS....... robbing c***s!


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