# Gtech C1



## HeavenlyDetail (Sep 22, 2006)

Ill ask this on here before on the open forum but id like peoples opinions on C1 after it has been applied. Im not prepared to state other peoples names or detailers that have suffered the same but i for one have had a total nightmare with this on black cars with water spotting and due to this will no longer be using it. Ive now had to machine a car off to get rid of it but alongside a different brand of vehicle his wifes actually being black with a different product on no water spots were evident from the rainfall , i know i am certainly not alone in this although others may not feel comftable posting as such. I also cannot help but feel that the batches are changing as they have different characteristics and ive lost faith in it now , the rest of the range is great but c1 will no longer be used as this customer is not the only one to complain to me and others i know that use it have had similar issues with cars coming back. I am guessing that from the original batch the later batches maybe down to cost have been diluted or altered and are not of similar quality , this is my own personal thoughts and not a factual statement as i may be incorrect but im not convinced anymore.


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## P.A.D (Jun 26, 2008)

Used it once on a Black Audi Q7 and to be honest it was a disaster.

As yourself I had to machine it off and waxed instead and customer was very happy.

Have tried Lee's Ceramishield and quite like that but if customer want's a sealant I tend to use Bodywrap as it's easy on/easy off and gives decent results.

Prefer a wax every time myself though. Less hassle too




Russ


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## HeavenlyDetail (Sep 22, 2006)

just to reiterate this wasnt after application , i was more than happy with application , this is one month after being outside in the elements , the water spotting on it was a total joke and im not alone , cars alongside it in the same colour have no waterspotting and were talking etched waterspotting not just a wipe off and its gone , this needed machining off...


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## Goodfella36 (Jul 21, 2009)

I take it you have noticed the change since the formula was changed to make it have a longer wipe off time?

Have you tried opticoat yet mark


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## P.A.D (Jun 26, 2008)

HeavenlyDetail said:


> just to reiterate this wasnt after application , i was more than happy with application , this is one month after being outside in the elements , the water spotting on it was a total joke and im not alone , cars alongside it in the same colour have no waterspotting and were talking etched waterspotting not just a wipe off and its gone , this needed machining off...


Yes dude, exactly the same as you. water spots had etched into the sealant......


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## Offyourmarks (Jan 4, 2006)

No, but I find Nanolex utterly amazing Mark


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## Saqib200 (May 13, 2008)

Was going to buy some of this, may just give it a miss then..

Zaino seems to work for us as a sealant, shame it's used less and less on this forum.

PS. Bought some Primo Amigo on your advice, and love the stuff. It certainly has its place.


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## Gleammachine (Sep 8, 2007)

Offyourmarks said:


> No, but I find Nanolex utterly amazing Mark


Same as Matt, no such issues with Nanolex Ultra.

Marc, have you made Rob at GT aware of the issues you have had?


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## Reflectology (Jul 29, 2009)

Marc, one reason I havent tried due to various folk telling me to stay away from it....I will be applying CCC's Ceramishield to a Black M6 next week mate and will keep you updated....I must admit though the Ceramic Coating that we spoke about a couple of months ago although expensive I have had no issues with....


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## Beau Technique (Jun 21, 2010)

Never got on with either Wolfs or Gtechnic tbh. Too fussy for my liking.


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## Leemack (Mar 6, 2009)

I've never tried C1 so can't comment.

So the water spots etch into the coating Marc and then ruin it to the point it needs machining off??


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## Spirit Detailing (Mar 29, 2007)

I know its hearsay now, but I also stayed away from C1 because of what some guys told me about the product performance. I haven't used it myself so I can't comment personally. At my place I use mainly CQuartz, sometimes Opticoat 2.0 as the upgrade sealants. On regular car details, I use RMP Crystal Diamond Glaze as it is only a couple of molecules away from being the glass coats but doesn't have the durable, hardening effect.

If I were to trouble-shoot your problem, Marc, it sounds like the surface has some porosity, perhaps from product still curing and not getting buffed off in the time-frame you had. Are you applying indoors and using heat to aid curing? How many layers do you apply?

Having said that, I do intend to try C1 for myself at some point, as well as Lee's product. Its always worth getting a 360 degree view of what's on offer.

On a separate point, has anyone used G3 Glasscoat? Only came across it last night for the first time online. Not sure if its worth looking into or not...

Cheers

Brian


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## Reflectology (Jul 29, 2009)

Spirit Detailing said:


> On a separate point, has anyone used G3 Glasscoat? Only came across it last night for the first time online. Not sure if its worth looking into or not...
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Brian


Yes mate, i use the Williams branded version and its awesome....just a little more expensive than the others though....


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## Leemack (Mar 6, 2009)

Reflectology said:


> Yes mate, i use the Williams branded version and its awesome....just a little more expensive than the others though....


Is that the only one you use Russ


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## HeavenlyDetail (Sep 22, 2006)

Rob is aware of this problem i believe hence ive asked in here others thoughts rather than posting in the mainstream as obviously thats why we post in here , the biggest problem i have is the fact that i cannot guarantee any dark cars i do wont come back , my other concern is that yes ive applied exactly as should be but if i cant get it right or another detailer held in high regard then what chance does the general public have who wouldnt have a unit or heated garage as i do away from the elements , remember we are talking a month later after rainfall and product was fully cured and removed wth visually a good effect when applied. I very rarely post any cars now as i simply dont have the time and am cameraless after selling mine to ccc.
One odd one.










G3 Glasscoat from people ive spoken to is the most undiluted product on the market and other companies buy a similar product that is diluted down so to speak for easier application and removal , im no expert or chemist but it stands to reason something less in quality is going to be easier to work with. Ive yet to try Nanolex or ceramishield , ceramishield interests me due to its 2 micron thickness and have asked for some reports on this as i couldnt get a micron from 51 layers of z2pro and havent measured any thickness from a product before so this would have massive benefits of protection if this is the case..
I may give Nanolex a whirl.
I just thought id ask this genuine question in here to see if others have suffered the same as myself and people im good friends with , maybe its a dodgy southern batch


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## Leemack (Mar 6, 2009)

And it is a beast of a camera


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## Reflectology (Jul 29, 2009)

Marc i am using Ceramishield next week and will check for thickness prior to application mate and afterwards....G3 Glasscoat, Williams, Ixtar or which ever brand you choose to have a crack with is indeed the most undiluted, I have tested the micron thickness on it as well where it left an increased level of on average of 6micron from one coat....The reason I have signed up for Ceramishield though is its apparent ease of application and removal....I will still though continue with the Williams coat as i have a few interested parties even though application will be more expensive....


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## HeavenlyDetail (Sep 22, 2006)

ixtar was what i had and although i understand the higher the concentration the harder to use the best is what im after although we do hve to factor in application and removal and there is obviously a balanced point of whats best.


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## Reflectology (Jul 29, 2009)

When I used the Williams on the Bentley mate its ease of use was easier than some waxes I have used....the only issue I had was removal but it is the same with everything, you have to get used to a product before cracking the code so to speak, I had a chat with the chaps at G3 and all went well...the Corsa I applied it to was like a breeze....definitely one to have a crack at though....there was some in the for sale thread but once its opened its knackered after 24hrs and I just cant leave it to chance that this kid hasnt opened any of them so wont have any....


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## P.A.D (Jun 26, 2008)

I got 1.8 Microns with Ceramisheild.

This was on a Disco3


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## Leemack (Mar 6, 2009)

Hey Russ

Hows it going?

Might pop over to see you this week mate :wave:


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## P.A.D (Jun 26, 2008)

Cool,

Give me a bell first though dude as have a fully booked week...:thumb:


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## Leemack (Mar 6, 2009)

Premtek Auto Detail said:


> Cool,
> 
> Give me a bell first though dude as have a fully booked week...:thumb:


Yeah yeah will do mate


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## HeavenlyDetail (Sep 22, 2006)

Premtek Auto Detail said:


> I got 1.8 Microns with Ceramisheild.
> 
> This was on a Disco3


How did you measure that? Was this with specific equipment and lazer pointer because thats an exact measurement? Im still struggling to understand these thicknesses when ive measured with exact point beam and not seen any significant gains from sealents and waxes ive always believed to have been submicron if even achieveable to read. I think c1 has put me off a little and if im really honest i wasnt particularly blown away with the visuals either , maybe i need to try some others...


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## Ti22 (Mar 24, 2009)

Not impressed with GTech products or service (or sales techniques)

Trialling Nanolex at the moment with positives on all fronts...


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## P.A.D (Jun 26, 2008)

HeavenlyDetail said:


> How did you measure that? Was this with specific equipment and lazer pointer because thats an exact measurement? Im still struggling to understand these thicknesses when ive measured with exact point beam and not seen any significant gains from sealents and waxes ive always believed to have been submicron if even achieveable to read. I think c1 has put me off a little and if im really honest i wasnt particularly blown away with the visuals either , maybe i need to try some others...


I will try to explain as best I can

First of all Lee told me that Ceramisheild puts a 2 micron ceramic coating onto the paintwork so I got in touch with my brother who is in the Automotive design Industry and he came along with a portable CMM.(Co-ordinate Measuring Machine) Not that I didn't trust you dude, just an experiment for myself really.

This has a twin reflector which remembers the previous measurements and takes into account movement etc and a portable probe which sends the measurements to the reflectors.

Readings were taken before polishing/after polishing and after the sealant was applied and the reading came out at 1.8 microns. The reading before and after polishing was the same and my bro reckoned that so little was taken off that it was unreadable.
Don't ask me to explain much more as I will have to bother my brother for any more answers lol.

My positector couldn't read the difference at all as obviously wasn't accurate enough.

The machine in question was a lot of money.

Russ


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## HeavenlyDetail (Sep 22, 2006)

Yep ive seen CMM,s used before but have to be honest the axis workings of them from my recollection is usually a fixed item to get a specific depth so measuring a before and after i would think would be virtually impossible because you cant axis on a specific point if your taking measurements before and after but as you say it compensates for movement , im just not understand how , but then i dont know what he used , im interested as i love the workings of all these things


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## Leemack (Mar 6, 2009)

Christ Russ

This is all getting too technical for me but fascinating. (My sky remote boggles my mind :lol: )


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## P.A.D (Jun 26, 2008)

HeavenlyDetail said:


> Yep ive seen CMM,s used before but have to be honest the axis workings of them from my recollection is usually a fixed item to get a specific depth so measuring a before and after i would think would be virtually impossible because you cant axis on a specific point if your taking measurements before and after but as you say it compensates for movement , im just not understand how , but then i dont know what he used , im interested as i love the workings of all these things


Me too dude but the price put me off.£40 +K second hand lol

I've seen static CMM's too but the thing he came with was like a X Box Kinect type thingy which basically keeps an eye on the component (Bonnet)
and a Arm/Probe and after calibration that was what it threw out.

I'll stick with my Positector and be done.

By the way done a test with wetsanding too and it came out at total 13 Microns lost. That was with block sanding with 2000/2500 and 3000 and then finish polish.


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## HeavenlyDetail (Sep 22, 2006)

I bet Miracle will be ordering one now


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## P.A.D (Jun 26, 2008)

Concours Car Care said:


> Christ Russ
> 
> This is all getting too technical for me but fascinating. (My sky remote boggles my mind :lol: )


Me too dude but my Bro is very technical and designs stuff for Auto Industry, sits on his ass all day and gets paid fooookin loads.

But then again loves the work I do and think's I am a genius when it comes to paint. If only he knew lol.


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## P.A.D (Jun 26, 2008)

HeavenlyDetail said:


> I bet Miracle will be ordering one now


Will probably get a PM later and you'll find it on a write up next week lol.

fair play to the man though, He's got some great marketing skills.


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## Over The Rainbow (Aug 30, 2011)

The majority of our c1 details are on black. Not noticed this personally. Even on the ones subjected to crap weather for weeks between a wash. Be interesting if anyone figures it out.


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## P.A.D (Jun 26, 2008)

Mayb'e it's dependent on Temp/weather Humidity etc.

The one I done was applied after IPA and in a studio set at 20C and stayed in their until next morning so can't see anything wrong going on their.

For me though if a product doesn't work spot on first time after doing what it says on the label I won't endorse it and will never use it again.

In the bin for me.


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## Ti22 (Mar 24, 2009)

Premtek Auto Detail said:


> I will try to explain as best I can
> 
> First of all Lee told me that Ceramisheild puts a 2 micron ceramic coating onto the paintwork so I got in touch with my brother who is in the Automotive design Industry and he came along with a portable CMM.(Co-ordinate Measuring Machine) Not that I didn't trust you dude, just an experiment for myself really.
> 
> ...


Used to use traditional CMM's years ago. I think you mean something like this?


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## P.A.D (Jun 26, 2008)

Nearly but was a gun and not a Arm,

Texted my Bro earlier to ask him about it and all he texted back was Handy Probe.

Wasn't as big as that. Was like a T shaped probe and the other part looked like a high spec Kinect.

Was impressed but don't think I will be offering this in my details lol


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## CleanDetail (Mar 7, 2009)

HeavenlyDetail said:


> Ill ask this on here before on the open forum but id like peoples opinions on C1 after it has been applied. Im not prepared to state other peoples names or detailers that have suffered the same but i for one have had a total nightmare with this on black cars with water spotting and due to this will no longer be using it. Ive now had to machine a car off to get rid of it but alongside a different brand of vehicle his wifes actually being black with a different product on no water spots were evident from the rainfall , i know i am certainly not alone in this although others may not feel comftable posting as such. I also cannot help but feel that the batches are changing as they have different characteristics and ive lost faith in it now , the rest of the range is great but c1 will no longer be used as this customer is not the only one to complain to me and others i know that use it have had similar issues with cars coming back. I am guessing that from the original batch the later batches maybe down to cost have been diluted or altered and are not of similar quality , this is my own personal thoughts and not a factual statement as i may be incorrect but im not convinced anymore.


As per the thread you commented on, I really don't like the stuff, Pain to work with and you have to have several products to do the whole car.

Has to be G3- Glass Coat for me, Does everything with one bottle, Glass, wheels, Plastics, Paint, Metal & Chrome.

I also find that G3 lasts longer, its easy to work with and gives a deeper shine.

Like you said before, with the right research you can see this is the one that's not watered down, its tested on the right hemisphere and not just China, Japan etc which have completely different weather types than us...

No doubt most of you would have seen this, But Simoniz tested the product before they bought the rights for the US. They actually say its better than any other product they have! Which says alot in my opinion.


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## Leemack (Mar 6, 2009)

All i'll say is. Ceramishield is not watered down and some tests that are being done will show it.


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## ProCarDetailing (Nov 25, 2011)

None of you use Permanon?

I admit I use it, especially after I heard the Gtechniq is basically watered down Permanon and not only that, but the yacht based Permanon at that!!

Paul


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## Ronnie (Nov 15, 2006)

there has been issues that I have been hearing about through other grape vines. I have to agree not using CCC product yet I would say nanolex it the most superior of them all and having broken them all down i can confirm that. had an issue with a few test cars as well. and Marc I will be able to shed some light on you problem if we can confirm what we think is happening. big problem is the manufacture esp as these are not proper nano products. its a very difficult product to manufacture esp when you are "cutting it".. its not being watered down as this cannot happen. they are ale particulate based products that are used. replicating batch after batch is very difficult. The other issue bing that you can only have 2 types of these products one for hard surfaced ie plastic/glass /metal and one for fabrics. great marketing tool thats for sure...


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## Leemack (Mar 6, 2009)

A few use permanon dude

I havent and in fact I havent really used a lot of these sealants mentioned.

I still love wax lol


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## MidlandsCarCare (Feb 18, 2006)

Have you looked at Opti Coat Marc?

Proven 2 years on cars in the US and 3 cars from the 22ml syringe, so cheaper than most on a per car basis. 

C1 has the best marketing so is most widely known. 

I have serious issues with people using these coatings on protection only details, but that's a can of worms and another thread...


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## Refined Detail (Nov 27, 2006)

RussZS said:


> C1 has the best marketing so is most widely known.


Definitely, it surprised me just how many people asked about G-Techniq in the last quarter of last year!

I've tried most their products now bar the C1. I like all the ones I have used, but have read far too many negative reports to justify trying the C1 myself now.

I've used and rate CQuartz, I have Opticoat to trial and never get a reply from CCC re. Ceramishield (as all the areas I cover have already been given to other detailers I guess!)

Still highly rate Zaino, and Wolfs Bodywrap (to an extent, confidence knocked slightly after the gassing issues I had previously)


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## Leemack (Mar 6, 2009)

I cannot be arsed to argue !


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## MidlandsCarCare (Feb 18, 2006)

I've nothing against your product Lee, I'm just waiting to see proven results and any other feedback after a few months before using it. 

Only the Optimum product has been around long enough to demonstrate actual durability of daily drivers and I've seen very few issues aside from application problems. 

I'm just saying its not something I'd ever do or recommend but if you can make over £1600 an hour then I doubt you really care - although if the same customer sees the same offering for £99 they may get a bit miffed?

Opti Coat for me is the cheapest cost per car and potentially the best performing do currently based on fact, the best choice. 

Also why take things so personally? People are going to say stuff and stir **** - this is one of the *****iest industries I've ever come across. 

You do it yourself with the "detailing 7 days a week" line.


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## Leemack (Mar 6, 2009)

I didnt mean that for you Russ. You should know that


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## Reflectology (Jul 29, 2009)

ProCarDetailing said:


> None of you use Permanon?
> 
> I admit I use it, especially after I heard the Gtechniq is basically watered down Permanon and not only that, but the yacht based Permanon at that!!
> 
> Paul


Permanon is a totally different ball game mate....I love it and apply on all my winter details as its durability is too good not to, but its only C2 that is Permanon Yacht Supershine everything else is either their own or another brand but can only confirm the C2/Permanon link....


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## Spirit Detailing (Mar 29, 2007)

I didn't like Permanon. Found it to be sticky. I did half a car with the aircraft bottle and left the other half unprotected. A week and a half of wet weather made the protected side dirtier for some reason. Gave the brand a wide berth after that.


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## Reflectology (Jul 29, 2009)

Spirit Detailing said:


> I didn't like Permanon. Found it to be sticky. I did half a car with the aircraft bottle and left the other half unprotected. A week and a half of wet weather made the protected side dirtier for some reason. Gave the brand a wide berth after that.


no such issues here mate.....


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## Beau Technique (Jun 21, 2010)

ProCarDetailing said:


> None of you use Permanon?
> 
> I admit I use it, especially after I heard the Gtechniq is basically watered down Permanon and not only that, but the yacht based Permanon at that!!
> 
> Paul


[email protected] was the very first authorised by them shortly follo9wed by myself. Different product type entirely compared to the crystal lacquer variety being talked about. Permanon is straight forward and works. Real no brainer on cost V time.

Back on topic but im still divided by these nano paint sealants. Most if not all state they seal the finish and fill in the pours of the paint. Surely this is bad for the paint and will in time dry the finish. Paints always wet even when dry technically after all. Same question fires at the leather sealants. Leather is skin so surely sealing the pours of skin will speed up the drying and cracking process or am I missing something?

Still cant beat a good 'nuba wax:thumb:


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## HeavenlyDetail (Sep 22, 2006)

Nick_CD said:


> As per the thread you commented on, I really don't like the stuff, Pain to work with and you have to have several products to do the whole car.
> 
> Has to be G3- Glass Coat for me, Does everything with one bottle, Glass, wheels, Plastics, Paint, Metal & Chrome.
> 
> ...


To be fair ive heard c1 c4 and c5 are all the same product aswell just relabelled or thats the talk on the grapevine and after playing with all 3 on all 3,s apparent best surfaces they all do identical hence all priced identical. And if im really honest i love c4 and c5 so at least the product does a great job on other substrates aswell as paintwork.


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## Reflectology (Jul 29, 2009)

C1 and C5 MSDS reads exactly the same just a product name change at the top....


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## Kelly @ KDS (Aug 4, 2008)

C1 , C4 and C5 are absolutely all the same . 

But depending on who you talk too or it seems what time of day or time of year there are at least 2 different formula's . 

slow curing and fast curing . 

meant to have exactly the same film strength once cured . 

one smells very different to the other . 

one WILL crystalize on the top of an open bottle one wont . 

fast curing will (depending on room temp) cure hard on micro fibre cloth and make up pad with in an hour , the slow i have found never cures hard on cloths ???? (same film strength ??? ) days later . 

One of my staff used to work for Rob and his brother up until recent worked for rob . 

so i should have the best insiders info around really 

Its known the 2 different types , rob even sent out for many detailers to try too . 

the fast curing was the one that got the best feed back of course and meant to be the one selected for sale . 

My take on this was that the idea of slower curing was for hobby guys dont get in trouble when apllying giving them plenty of time to remove excess product , as well as not marring problems . 

the marring from (as robs instructions in early days) to use same make up pad around entire car (so not to waste product) KDS found this was marring soft dark coloured cars as the pads had hard crystals in warm temps after a couple of panels . 

so we now use new pad on every large panel or one on every after 2 small panels . so know using much more just to prime as such each new make up pad , have found cutting Micro fibre cloths into small squares means you can get 2-3 panels out of each square before changing, but the microfibre needs more product to prime so back to square one . 

also the fast curing can bond on the last panel you have treated , while apllying on the next panel around the car just as you wipe the panel down to remove product and overlap the first panel for even courage. 

if not then wiped again with fresh cloth very soon a smear can be left which once the entire car is done cant be removed .

In fact i have had to correct a car (DW member) that G techniq coated from new Black for some of the very problems . 

So thats a guys thats been using same products for years and Rob himself and still had apllication problems . 

Found it take 2 of my guys (normally me and g techniq old staff) to get it spot on , this takes over an hour too . 

So fussy yes grief yes , and i have ranted in his ear for over a year now about the pro's and con's to the products . 

In the end he is listening thou . 


I have been told that C4 is always the fast curing as the slow curing does not work on plastics ??? same film strength ??


The slow curing theory is that the solvents are still present after a quick aplly and wipe , so removing the coating before its had chance to bond/cure .

But i have had C1 and C5 that does not cure hard on the top of the bottle or pads . 

the problem is you never know which is which as the bottles are not marked. 

I had a batch that on the paint of a new golf stayed sticky many hours after coating (summer time) sprayed water next day and did not bead, IPA down the car Neat , then reapllied with a bottle for a while back felt like it should be . considering i have spent over 4k of c1 c5 c4 thats alot of cars being coated with the stuff i should know how it feel and perform . 

after talking to rob about this golf he sent down a slow curing and fast curing sample to compare to (labeled) but smelt and test in between the 2 , so do we now have 3 formula's :lol:.

I have tested and still testing against some other long term coatings , and its coming out on top to date , which to be honest i was not expecting . 

i have seen manys customers cars a year or longer that are still performing great , but i have had an issue like marc on 2 customers car , althou my van and tracys test cars have not had any issues (both being of light coloured paint so much lower panel temps when sitting in the sun light), black and dark colours can be a problem. 

rob is awear of this problem . 

i really ripped into rob over this problem and he shut up and listened to me and since is working manic on solutions and ideas . 

Shame as this could just be a batch problem , change in chemistry (slightly) cost cutting we will never really know i guess.

the thing is C5 and c1 are the same , and wheels get hot , and many many wheels in this country will be smart repaired with average paint materials , even wheels fully painted most are done at bodyshops with and same paint and used on the cars bodywork . 

So thats C1 bonding to car paint on hot wheels and works well and repells brake dust , and never seen and heard of an issue . 

I can understand when its on proper powder coat paint and this is normally much more durable and harder , so then will make C5 look like its working well . 

Infact never seen C4 water spot badly on the plastics which are plastic and get hot too ?

All of this above , is not great situation for us detailers as we want something easy to aplly and works thats it . 

last thing you want is problems which will be pointed at the person/company who apllied / upsell of the long lasting coating . 

A wax over c1 will stop this water staining issue , but defeats the object really . 

another thing to remember @ marc as you live near KDS , we have alot of industry near us , in fact i am only 5-10 miles away from power station and the cars with this issue are nearby . 
i have seen this same problem happen on a black audi rs4 with 3 coats of zanio and had to be machined off . 

The area and location will play a part in this . 

Spring 2011 i got over 10 bookings from bad water etching in Kent and essex boarder All dark colours some soft paint some hard paint , some waxed some not . 

When i wrote with pics in detailing chat about this got flamed down by hooby guys who know best . so did not reply . i was only a warning guys and trying to help . 

I coating in one country will perform completely different in another country 

i still stand by we have one of the harsest changing climates in the world with such great variables 

Right i best get back to my work i guess . 

HTH kelly


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## HeavenlyDetail (Sep 22, 2006)

And this is my main problem , I can't be second guessing what product I'm getting when it's a customers car that will come back to me not Gtechniq and it will be me that has to spend the time correcting it again. My other concern although I fully understand area etc is why 2 cars side by side both black one his and one his wife's were different , his waterspotted and etched with c1 on yet hers absolutely nothing , that to me shows it's what's on the vehicle surface that has reacted with what has fallen onto it in identical positions and conditions.


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## Ronnie (Nov 15, 2006)

All I know from our testing is that if you do not control both relative air temperature and moisture content in the air whilst curing, it will have a negative effect on the product leading to some very odd reactions. The darker colours as well have their own issues especially when they get very hot on sunny days where we have been able to get the coating to fragment in an extreme test. Butthen on a hot day any natural coatind for example wax etc will evaporate at about 70 degrees C and some sealants at just over 100. hence why we tell customers to park in shady areas or to get a recoating after exposure to long periods in teh sun.... and as stated earlier teh basic product can only be got in two types one hard surface (glass/plastic/metal etc) the other fabric. the scent and other changes are pretty simple to do and are there simply to convince people that they are different products. 

Kelly has sort of confirmed as they are not working with a "pure product" replication is very very hard to do accuratly. Kelly are these being formulated in the UK or in the Far East do you know as htis will have a massive bearing on the consistancy from batch to batch. After a few trips to the Far East we gave up on the idea of going there and now brew everything over here where I can control the outcome. The will farm out a lot of work and you have no control to be honest. 

from our testing we found the nanolex products to be a better all rounder and more user friendly when it came to conditions during curing.


Marc to answer your question the only way you will have a similar result is to have both cars done at teh same time side by side and if not then your garage must be kitted with a thermostatically controlled heater anda dehumidifier. But just to through a curve ball the temp and moisture content muxt remain pretty constant through out as if not it will also play havock with the finish and how it performs. we are over a year into developing ours and are not yet ready to release it so I know how hard these things are to formulate.


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## HeavenlyDetail (Sep 22, 2006)

And this is in the public domain? Which asks the question why wasn't it at first and pro application only which the above probably explains and now why has that changed and it's probably financial not for detailing benefits...


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## Ronnie (Nov 15, 2006)

all i have said is from what my chemist and I have discovered. Could tell you some great stories about some products lol! Now makes me laugh when people are saying things about products and I have found what they are really using lol! but thats another thread. 

Mark it (read these products) is meant to be an industrial application product not a product for our industry at all to be honest Not because any detailer/valeter does not have the skill to apply it but because they need to be applies in controlled and repeatable conditions that is the problem...


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## Kelly @ KDS (Aug 4, 2008)

Anyway guys 

i wrote around another 40 minute reply only for the PC to freeze and lock up , so lost it all this morning . 

maybe it was a good thing as wrote very open posting in links to photos too , so may be fate . 


SO 

as OCD ni and CCC have both contacted KDS in the past about samples and testing their products , to which we meaning (me from ccc by pm) and (paul kds painter to ronnie by phone call) we are still waiting :tumbleweed:

I took it as thou either the product is average or you cant be bothered . 

If you ask someone/company to try/test a product , and that company says please then send it , or just dont ask . 

How did i get to deal with dodo juice or G techniq , they asked we said yes they delivered , we now used and spend alot of money with them simples . 

There is 4 KDS staff , so we can and do get through alot of products and processed customers and cars in a year. 

And now repainting cars along with repairs have an large market for specalist coatings.

the feed back i have got back from g techniq and dodo is very good from kds using and posting that we use their products , and has helpped them alot 



not trying to upset anyone just i believe in do what you say or dont say at all . 

I am not joined or tied in with g techniq at all , ROB knows this all too well and been on the revieving end of me thoughts many times . 

rob knows that Avi Car pro tried for around a year offering me car pro uk , and the offer got better and better as he wanted a company in the uk which could really show his products to the best. 
Avi wanted to even brand the latest products as KDS , saying he would get the far east to make KDS own compounds .

i am just not ready to be handling all of the stock for uk market and trying to market and sell them . 

BUT for a UK based company (if car pro was in the uk then i would use the products) then its much easier to deal with to have meetings and closer contact in any problems in the uk's climate .

I am and will always be at the limit to what KDS can cope with , with out any new ventures . 

so leave it to the guys with more time to do so . 

Kelly


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## Kelly @ KDS (Aug 4, 2008)

HeavenlyDetail said:


> And this is in the public domain? Which asks the question why wasn't it at first and pro application only which the above probably explains and now why has that changed and it's probably financial not for detailing benefits...


Cant say for sure , but from the 2 guys who worked with rob its all financial,

BUT is not why we are in business ?

its the fact that around the time i noticed a slight change in the smell feel of the coatings while using them , was when the slow "new" curing came out for easier to use so for the open market .

but i think its now back to fast .

as i said changes day to day when i ask .

As with many salesmen most will tell you what you want to hear.

If i could put my finger on an absolute reason then it would be easier to solve , but i cant and Rob has not yet either.

this is a tiny contained problem at present , but like marc had put a huge doubt in my mind when to use it now .

ronnie fyi its from the far east .

I am glad i am not making or suppling products :lol:
to much stress .

I would say over 50% of the time its the person using the products and not the product its self , BUT it will always be the products fault and not the operator for poor performance 

DODO juices hard and soft waxes will be almost the same durability , but because the hard spreads more thinly public find it performs better .

its just the soft wax is most over applied and does not skin cure correctly before wiping off .

operator error not product .

kelly


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## Ti22 (Mar 24, 2009)

Lots of interesting science coming out here lads! 

I've heard through mulitple sources that Gtech was being watered down to increase profitability. Possibly this has something to do with the batch patchiness..

Am currently testing SV Divine Vs Nanolex on the van. Interestingly SV switzerland's view on the nano stuff last year was it doesn't do what its claimed to..


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## P.A.D (Jun 26, 2008)

Ti22 said:


> Lots of interesting science coming out here lads!
> 
> I've heard through mulitple sources that Gtech was being watered down to increase profitability. Possibly this has something to do with the batch patchiness..
> 
> Am currently testing SV Divine Vs Nanolex on the van. Interestingly SV switzerland's view on the nano stuff last year was it doesn't do what its claimed to..


From what iv'e read about Gtech and from some of the Guy's on here I don't think it can be watered down or thinned out.

Another thing for me is that I really don't want to put a sealant on a customer car and not see them again for 2 years. ( No offence Lee)

I like wax,:argie: My customers like a nice wax so apart from the few customers that want a sealant I will stick with wax...

Russ


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## HeavenlyDetail (Sep 22, 2006)

Kelly I totally agree with what you say and yes everyone is in the job for the money BUT not at the expense of the customer or the product, by financially gaining Gtechniq is lowering it's service and making the end user pay the price not the supplier.
You can make a genuine comparison here and let's be honest I've been respectable enough to post this in this section for genuine opinions so as not to damage Gtechniqs credibility where as if I had posted this honest problem I've encountered on the main forum people may have started ditching it in their hundreds and buying similar products and this wasn't the exercise, I just wanted honest opinions from others who use it , if we cant ask an honest question in a private section then it is not worth having the section or paying a subscription to find out inside information about products good or bad that may or may not benefit people as a company.
Swissvax have raised their prices because they were not breaking even or making a profit, I'm not happy BUT I have the option of buying or not buying which Is my choice but knowing the product is the same and will perform as it always has , if Gtechniq is gaining a profit from dilution not price increasing then that is misleading and damaging to It's reputation as a leading coating specialist If this is the case , I'd rather pay more and know my details are not going to come back and bill the customer accordingly than pay the same and have a customer tarnish my reputation because his car in his eyes has been ruined.
C1 in it's neatest form cannot in my opinion be sold to Joe public because it's not possible to guarantee application in all weather in any situation and Id the diluted version is applicable in all the above but not going to work they have an issue that needs to be addressed.. And to reply wax over the product to stop it happening is really very poor as you are then stating your product actually doesn't work and goes against all marketing every produced from them.


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## Reflectology (Jul 29, 2009)

Agree completely Marc...private section and kept that way....there is one chap on open forum that would have been on the dog and bone to Gtechniq as soon as he saw the thread if this had been in open forum....but lets be straight while we are in here....I use Williams F1 Coating, which is G3 Glasscoat....I havent had any issues or comebacks from any clients since I started using it last April, yes it comes with a guarantee of 5yrs but what do these mean, basically its guarding against UV damage thats it....they cannot even pretend to stop contaminates bonding to it, this is where Gtechniq got it right, by saying it must be maintained....which for me is the best way to go about business with such coatings, the wrong way though is what they have done with not only C1, C4 and C5 but also Permanon....and this is an old debate as they were as i understand it allowed to decant Permanon Yacht Supershine and pass it off as Gtechniq C2 if they had on the bottle "licensed by Permanon"....now for a good length of time they pulled the wool over customers eyes even when this first came out....

Now i have nothing against anyone trying to make money but if they are rebranding then at least have the decency to say so on the label....


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## Ti22 (Mar 24, 2009)

HeavenlyDetail said:


> Swissvax have raised their prices because they were not breaking even or making a profit, I'm not happy BUT I have the option of buying or not buying which Is my choice but knowing the product is the same and will perform as it always has , if Gtechniq is gaining a profit from dilution not price increasing then that is misleading and damaging to It's reputation as a leading coating specialist If this is the case , I'd rather pay more and know my details are not going to come back and bill the customer accordingly than pay the same and have a customer tarnish my reputation because his car in his eyes has been ruined.


Totally agree Marc - also about keeping it in here. It's the reason I stick with SV - it's not cheap but is never going to make me a liar to my customers, and that's the most important thing to me. Looking fwd to going to SV swizerland next week to see some new stuff and see Georg (the MD) again.


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## Ronnie (Nov 15, 2006)

You have to remember what these products are silicone dispersal surfactats they are not even proper nano.. when you see whats in them they are pretty much pi55 easy to make and as for profit the size they are coming in well say no more. these products really bug me simply as they are nothing that they claim to be they are paiticulate products which is like saying mayfair lights blended cigarettes are the same a a cuban cigar! 

when you are dealing with a contract manufacture unless it is bottled by them you can't guarentee what is happening to it if its sold in a 25L drum and decanted. Now realistically I know there is very few who make their own products but and this is speaking solely for myself knowing what contracts are in place and what we are making for other people, if we found them to be "altering" the product after it left us we would personally terminate teh contract unless its a concentrated form that has a specific dilution ratio (just for example our uberfoam which is 2000:1 we are selling loads of it and its being diluted into 100:1 &200:1 snow foams which is fine but if they were cutting it then sending it making it an inferior product then that is a contractal issue and Marc its best left out of public view for the time being)...



Kelly I have to apologise but I have actually been in hospital since just after Christmas. I had said I would post them just after christmas to avoid the rush when I was on the phone, but I had complications in the operation which left me out of action for much longer then I had hoped and have only started back yesterday. Should have contacted you prior but been a bit out of it to be honest.


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## HeavenlyDetail (Sep 22, 2006)

In Ronnies defence he said he would send me full samples before he went in and they arrived safely...


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## Kelly @ KDS (Aug 4, 2008)

Reflectology said:


> Agree completely Marc...private section and kept that way
> 
> I use Williams F1 Coating, which is G3 Glasscoat....I havent had any issues or comebacks from any clients since I started using it last April, yes it comes with a guarantee of 5yrs but what do these mean, ...


Russ , firsly agree with Pro private only for complex long life coatings .

I know that Rob (due to money) and not selling enough (same difference) had to sell C1 to all .

Not saying this was the correct thing , in fact chewed his balls over it .

But i have had only 1 actually problem with C1 since using it (water spoting)

here



















and know of another car (did not see it for myself, but my customer) Rob sorted this one out , as after i had to deal with one car FOC (in the pics) , i told the next to go straight to Rob , and G techniq sorted FOC , this was when Rob then started looking into the problem alot more .

I think if he did not have to sort out the car FOC and i fixed it again nothing would of got looked into really .

BUT big but too , done hundreds with no problem and only one is absolutely the coating at fault . 
as a percentage then thats a very low odds of a problem , and in fact after correcting the water etching still re-coated with G techniq ,(this time thou Rob sent down "new" batch bottles to put on the same car again.

Is this time of year when applied , is this the way one of the KDS staff apllied it , is it a one off and never happen again , or is it a duff bottle , its the not knowing thats the biggest worry for me .

Compared to waxes (most) these coatings need finer tolerances and higher skill with controlled condtions to apply .

As i said i have had a car into me that water etched as bad as the G techniq pics above , and this had 3 coats of Zaino aplied by customer .

Russ this could be location related problems with mini climates and fallout .

How are we ever going to know, what if i used the F1 coating and it spotted for me or have i got to coat 200 cars (like g techniq) before i see a problem .

We are not comparing apples with apples here just too many variations involved .

same for the car re-finishing trade , the blame for the bodyshop is the paint and materials defect and not the painter at fault in some cases .

Scratch resistant paint for one , it does not work thats all i hear , but it does , its just the window of curing time to get heat into the paint (correct temp for the correct amount of time , starting at the correct time after last coat) to get the strongest cross linking affect is much tighter than standard paint.

If you wait too long and cure paint either lower temp (many reasons for doing so not going into it know) or many hours later than you should , the window for strong cross linking is gone and can never be got back .

So now we have scratch (hard really) lets say marr resistant paint is now just average softish paint thats not worked , so know the bodyshop starts saying the paint is rubbish and does not work .

Paint needs to be Forced dried (with heat) to cure and cross link correctly , but this is also dependant on the amout of paint (coats) and the mix , thinners to hardner to lacquer (if top coat) , then what thinners and hardner is used (fast slow etc) , this all changes the way the paint is forced dried for its best performance for the future.

Got it slight out and the performance can drop off alot , but not notice a for a few years .

when we apply the long life coatings we have no control over the formula or even the curing (unless in temp controlled humidity control oven) only how to wipe it on and off .

the comparison to Paint to long life coatings seems strong i guess , bit most aftermarket paint company's do NOT give 5 year garrantte for the paint , unless its the better specailist paint division products being used applied  by only a few tightly controlled bodyshops to achieve the a 5 year plus warranty .

We (meaning my dads bodyshop) achieved the specs for being able to give a 10 year warranty on ALL repairs , one thing was the paint being used was around £400 for 5 litres of unmixed lacquer , when you can be 5 litres on normal paint being used across the country for around £60 .

15 years ago the paint materails alone cost me trade price, to re-colour a nova around £600 .

you can get a repaint for cheaper than that today .

How can a sub mircon coating protect for 5 years plus , if most paints materials dont and when they do are very expensive products used in very tight conditions .

The amount of testing and additives that go into lacquers (expensive quality ones) they all ready have UV barriers and hardners built into them , and these are 30-60 microns deep .

Can a submicron coating really have a higher UV protection that 40 mircon thick lacquer .

found no "real world scratch resistance" from detailing coatings , they are just way too thin to protect.

lastly , this problem i am sure will only show on dark colours , of softish nature paint , many reasons one being heat (ie panel temp) as Ronnie said , i have seen waxes fail after days and weeks on dark colours at very high temps , can be seen in this country , in fact got some pics of a carbon black m3 from december , the outside temp (ground temp was 6dec c) left the car outside for 15 minutes whiel we washed the workshop floor , the side panel temps facing the sun were 42 dec c the side in the shade were 6 deg c .

Summer i have seen black hit 90 deg c while white was 24 deg c , silver 29 deg c and so on , my light blue M3 being 45 deg c. This was on a day that was 25 degc in the shade , NOT a heat wave day just average summers day.

So any type of LSP will work and perform different from a white car to a black.

My choice of coating is based around colour But not for looks more for temps involved .

Problem with G techniq and other similar coatings , is 90% of the customers who want marr / scratch resistance long life coatings are black or dark coloured , DONT want to maintain the finish and want it to last for ever .

when it does not do what it claims then there is a big problem for the detailer.

The guy / customer whos car i have posted , said he would of rather saved the extra cost that the coating cost and just had a couple of repeat visits for top ups instead.

Of course if this water staining did not happen then G techniq would of been the best thing since sliced bread.

And the coating due to such a thin film is only as hard as the sub base its applied too .

1/2 micron thick coating is then wiped with contanminated cloth which has grit and dirt on it (grit being a few microns in size) it just cuts deeper / lower down past the coating in the lacquer .

It will reduce light marring thou , but then a coat of wax will fill in very well these type of defects , so yet again wax comes back to the top as the best simple quick cheap solution .

are you confused know as i am :lol:

some will understand :thumb:

Kelly


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## Kelly @ KDS (Aug 4, 2008)

Ronnie said:


> Kelly I have to apologise but I have actually been in hospital since just after Christmas. I had said I would post them just after christmas to avoid the rush when I was on the phone, but I had complications in the operation which left me out of action for much longer then I had hoped and have only started back yesterday. Should have contacted you prior but been a bit out of it to be honest.


Not a problem ronnie , and did not know that :thumb:

Kelly


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## MidlandsCarCare (Feb 18, 2006)

I saw something on Facebook today regarding a new coating which is claimed to be 4-5H hardness and 30 microns thick... presumably it is possible as it wouldn't have been posted (re-seller on here with a detailer who can read this) but I've never heard of anything able to achieve this before?

Also, on subject, what do you all make of the 5 year warranty around C1? I was looking at being GTechniq Approved, but fear that in 2-3 years time I'll have a lot of annoyed people asking for free top ups...


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## Ronnie (Nov 15, 2006)

no worries Kelly had told a fe and to be honest my head was ont all there so I did forget to delay a few and you were one of them. will get it sorted for you.. will send a PM..


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## Ronnie (Nov 15, 2006)

guys with the problems.. i have been having a few thoughts can you tell me what the weather was like when putting the coatings on and the region where the car lives. got a theory but want to see if im correct.


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## HeavenlyDetail (Sep 22, 2006)

MidlandsCarCare said:


> I saw something on Facebook today regarding a new coating which is claimed to be 4-5H hardness and 30 microns thick... presumably it is possible as it wouldn't have been posted (re-seller on here with a detailer who can read this) but I've never heard of anything able to achieve this before?
> 
> Also, on subject, what do you all make of the 5 year warranty around C1? I was looking at being GTechniq Approved, but fear that in 2-3 years time I'll have a lot of annoyed people asking for free top ups...


Why would you want to? Id rather have £200 rolling in x amount of times per month on wax top ups with no agro than none from a long lifetime product , your killing your business... its gotta be more beneficial buying a tub of crystal and charging (£200 per layer in some instances from various SW detailers) every few months topping up and making a killing.


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## P.A.D (Jun 26, 2008)

MidlandsCarCare said:


> I saw something on Facebook today regarding a new coating which is claimed to be 4-5H hardness and 30 microns thick... presumably it is possible as it wouldn't have been posted (re-seller on here with a detailer who can read this) but I've never heard of anything able to achieve this before?
> 
> Also, on subject, what do you all make of the 5 year warranty around C1? I was looking at being GTechniq Approved, but fear that in 2-3 years time I'll have a lot of annoyed people asking for free top ups...


Don't do it Russ.

I would always prefer to put a quality wax on instaed of any sealant.

Don't tie down to anyone......................:thumb:

Premtek Russ


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## HeavenlyDetail (Sep 22, 2006)

I think they have their place but their place is the consumer applying them not the business applying them unless maintenance isnt in your equations for profit..


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## Leemack (Mar 6, 2009)

I agree to some extent Marc and this is an interesting thread :thumb:

My maintanence plans are 40 quid wash/wheels and interior so a mini valet. Quite a few also request a layer of wax as they want protection plus protection if that makes sense.

I do around 20 maintanence per week (well someone else does) and its nice beer money


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## HeavenlyDetail (Sep 22, 2006)

Concours Car Care said:


> I agree to some extent Marc and this is an interesting thread :thumb:
> 
> My maintanence plans are 40 quid wash/wheels and interior so a mini valet. Quite a few also request a layer of wax as they want protection plus protection if that makes sense.
> 
> I do around 20 maintanence per week (well someone else does) and its nice beer money


Wax topups over a coating is a different aspect altogether , that could sustain the income... :thumb:


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## Kelly @ KDS (Aug 4, 2008)

MidlandsCarCare said:


> I saw something on Facebook today regarding a new coating which is claimed to be 4-5H hardness and 30 microns thick... presumably it is possible as it wouldn't have been posted (re-seller on here with a detailer who can read this) but I've never heard of anything able to achieve this before?
> 
> Also, on subject, what do you all make of the 5 year warranty around C1? I was looking at being GTechniq Approved, but fear that in 2-3 years time I'll have a lot of annoyed people asking for free top ups...


lol

been testing over holidays , marc has seen my latest test bonnet , this time its on paint thou or the amount need to a certain paint depth per coat of lacquer.

I have a bonnet with just base coat square , then base and lacquer square , then base coat and 2 coats of lacquer (the 2 coats being full coats) . 
many systems of High solid paint only needing one light mist coat (sometimes call grip coat) , then one full coat.

so 11/2 to 2 litres of paint (base coat colour coat) would go around the average size car (this is very general) for full colour coverage , this WILL give between 20-30 microns paint depth , OK so of that when being atomized will be sucked up the extraction .

I just hope thats i mighty big bottle of this "new" coating to treat the whole car :doublesho and get 30 mircons .

Absolutle rubbish , the human eye can pick up and see 1-2 micron bend in the light and reflection from change in depth (as seen from repairs that have sunk / shrunk from drying curing process) which now show on the surface and chan be corrected by light wet flatting removing 1 - 2 mcicrons, Orange peel can often only be 6 microns from top to bottom , how the hell are you going to apply a 30 micron coat evenly over different surfaces uniformly ???

I few words here , to date the person with the best business knowledge and going in the right direction (detailer products related) at present is

james B , not built on claims and bull , 
i am waiting to be proved wrongly with longlife coatings that flatten orange peel or add lots measured depth to the paint and will be the first to own up when i am proved wrongly .

30 microns :lol:

@ marc please post what 51 coats of Zaino measured ,

Dom agrees 10 coats of wax is nearly un measurable by standard micron paint depth gauge .

Russ 1-2 years is what you will get max out of G techniq , with C2 after every 4th 5th wash then longer .

But thats not really then the C1 working is it , read the small print , just like all the other long life coatings needs continuos top ups for best results , BUT it works for marketing and people love it .

kelly


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## HeavenlyDetail (Sep 22, 2006)

With a pointer at various positions and takeing over 50 readings i struggled to get more than a micron and i believe thats right , im struggling to see micron plus which is why ive been curious about coatings with micron+ thickness. 
Russ what coating is this? Thats 3/4 of a millimetre?


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## Reflectology (Jul 29, 2009)

just turned into a sore subject this....its all game plan, mind games and marketing tactics and its just a bit childish IMO....if someone has released a brand spanking new product range (CCC) why would competitors all of a sudden want to out do them all of a sudden....if they had this coating why wait until Lee was in a prime spot....green eyed monster....


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## HeavenlyDetail (Sep 22, 2006)

Reflectology said:


> just turned into a sore subject this....its all game plan, mind games and marketing tactics and its just a bit childish IMO....if someone has released a brand spanking new product range (CCC) why would competitors all of a sudden want to out do them all of a sudden....if they had this coating why wait until Lee was in a prime spot....green eyed monster....


Russ you lost me there , how do you mean?


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## MidlandsCarCare (Feb 18, 2006)

Possibly

It was this:

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...7638662226.364566.106381462225&type=1&theater

Not sure if you can all view it?


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## HeavenlyDetail (Sep 22, 2006)

Ok now that surprises me its possible or possible evenly lets say , ill be interested to see how this works...


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## Leemack (Mar 6, 2009)

Thing is.

There is room for everyone imo. I am taking a step back and having a good read of everything and it is very interesting to read.
I love waxing, I love sealing

30 microns? Is that possible?


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## HeavenlyDetail (Sep 22, 2006)

I have asked the genuine question based on what ive just read...

http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?p=3229746#post3229746

and today i was using 40 thou rubber sheeting and got my sums all wrong hahahaha...have editted.


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## Auto Finesse (Jan 10, 2007)

Its no "secret" that my self and another well known person in the detailing industry, set up something not to dissimilar to the latest G-tec System of application (in 2008, dealer apps (paint guardian) using a not to dissimilar coating, and we tested loads and to get much past a year in real world durability is non existent, loads of varying factors, but the main one is the coating left is so fine, just washing will eventually erode it away anyway over the course of a year. 

30 microns, pffft, id be amazed if you can get that, not that 30 microns is thick (just look at your PTG shims) but even if you rollered a coat of clear coat on to a surface i doubt it would be much more than 30Microns, and dam it would look like sh!t after, now imagine putting clear coat on with an applicator, ok so you may claim it has levelers in it, but so do many (if not all) clear coats. i dont think its possible my self. 

These coating prove popular with clients, as once a car is detailed they obviously want the finish to last as long as possible but once you start attaching unrealistic claims your leading people down a garden path and eventually you will leave them dissatisfied. IMO your far better to say 12 months and then the customer thinks is great its still working after 14-16, rather than say 5 years and it fall back in under half that period.

Its all about managing expectations, and experienced and successful detailers will be the masters of that (we'v all had the guy wanting stone chips polished out right? ha ha ha)


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## Leemack (Mar 6, 2009)

James B said:


> Its no "secret" that my self and another well known person in the detailing industry, set up something not to dissimilar to the latest G-tec System of application (in 2008, dealer apps (paint guardian) using a not to dissimilar coating, and we tested loads and to get much past a year in real world durability is non existent, loads of varying factors, but the main one is the coating left is so fine, just washing will eventually erode it away anyway over the course of a year.
> 
> 30 microns, pffft, id be amazed if you can get that, not that 30 microns is thick (just look at your PTG shims) but even if you rollered a coat of clear coat on to a surface i doubt it would be much more than 30Microns, and dam it would look like sh!t after, now imagine putting clear coat on with an applicator, ok so you may claim it has levelers in it, but so do many (if not all) clear coats. i dont think its possible my self.
> 
> ...


Which is exactly why I dont offer a 5 yr. Perfect post JB !

I could but I dont see it lasting 3 so we offer 12 and 24 month warranty packages


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## HeavenlyDetail (Sep 22, 2006)

If 30 microns is tested and proven its very impressive..


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## MidlandsCarCare (Feb 18, 2006)

What's the longest anyone has seen on an actual car from any of these coating?

Best I've seen is Opti Coat on a car in the US after 18 months and it wasn't looking too clever, but was definitely still there.

The vid for the Autobrite product looks seriously impressive sheeting wise.

I think I'll stick to Zaino for sealants, especially with the Euro stuff imminent.

I've had a few people specifically ask for Opti Coat, but they are all active on here - I doubt I'd ever get a specific request for it from the 'general public'.


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## Leemack (Mar 6, 2009)

Thing is 

We could all do an amazing sheeting vid - Very good product if it is 30 microns


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## P.A.D (Jun 26, 2008)

HeavenlyDetail said:


> If 30 microns is tested and proven its very impressive..


100% no chance.

It wouldn't level at all and take sooooooo long to cure even under controlled enviroment.

May'be a Paint Booth but 3o microns.

Yeah right


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## Auto Finesse (Jan 10, 2007)

MidlandsCarCare said:


> What's the longest anyone has seen on an actual car from any of these coating?
> 
> Best I've seen is Opti Coat on a car in the US after 18 months and it wasn't looking too clever, but was definitely still there.
> 
> ...


Euro finally? i remember getting a sample of something that was supposed to be the euro sealant back in 2007, it was amazing, we put it on my mate Dans orange ST ad it looked and lasted really well.


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## MidlandsCarCare (Feb 18, 2006)




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## MidlandsCarCare (Feb 18, 2006)

James B said:


> Euro finally? i remember getting a sample of something that was supposed to be the euro sealant back in 2007, it was amazing, we put it on my mate Dans orange ST ad it looked and lasted really well.


I can only assume so but it makes sense that it was being developed, then we have seen Paul D testing out a new Zaino sealant and the Zaino guy from the US Vids was over visiting... makes sense to me!


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## HeavenlyDetail (Sep 22, 2006)

MidlandsCarCare said:


> I can only assume so but it makes sense that it was being developed, then we have seen Paul D testing out a new Zaino sealant and the Zaino guy from the US Vids was over visiting... makes sense to me!


Wonder what it was?


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## [email protected] (Mar 5, 2007)

all i can say is i ran from the information from the manufacture and please read carefully "UPTO", and im not going to be dragged into this. only time will tell what they come back with, i have send over lots of questions today in regards to how it was read (the microns), and the impact from weather curing and afterward, easy of application. 

The promotional video said between 30 -40 microns but that could be lost in translation. but the "upto 30 microns" was on screen as a banner for all to see and was very clear. but only time will tell. maybe i have jumped the gun and may back track, but im man enough to say i was wrong, but its only the info i have been fed im running off. 

We have had this ceramic coating for well over 6 months, on a real life test. 

from testing in-house the product looks very promising, but the upto 30 microns was new info to us today and i was like a kid at Christmas and all excited when i posted it.


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## P.A.D (Jun 26, 2008)

Autobrite Detailer said:


> all i can say is i ran from the information from the manufacture and please read carefully "UPTO", and im not going to be dragged into this. only time will tell what they come back with, i have send over lots of questions today in regards to how it was read (the microns), and the impact from weather curing and afterward, easy of application.
> 
> The promotional video said between 30 -40 microns but that could be lost in translation. but the "upto 30 microns" was on screen as a banner for all to see and was very clear. but only time will tell. maybe i have jumped the gun and may back track, but im man enough to say i was wrong, but its only the info i have been fed im running off.
> 
> ...


Any idea how the measurement was taken and what with?

Russ


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## Spirit Detailing (Mar 29, 2007)

30 microns is .03 of a millimetre.

Its still very, very thick for a product on this variety. First thing that came to mind was "did they it that wrong before releasing it?" As Kelly said, the human eye can pick up on very miniscule variations on a surface like auto paint.

However, if it is properly self levelling then it might be an interesting finish. But still, 30 Microns? It _must_ have multiple layers before you can achieve that. I'm running tests on a self-levelling hand applied clear-coat that goes on at an average 11 dry microns and has a very nice gloss. When dried and cured it does benefit from a single stage polishing.

I haven't started to offer this as a service yet but the next stage of trial is to add one of these sealants to it and test resistance to marring and chemical invasion coated versus re-coated versus re-coated + protected.

Irrespective of the original subject matter, its been very interesting to get people's perspectives on the sealants. I use CQuartz or OptiCoat and its been fine with both (I even coated Opticoat on top of CQ once. Interesting but unremarkable!!). I only had a problem with it on one car - and only one after-market bonnet thereon that had different paint on it to the rest of the car. A Continental GTO. For some reason, CQuartz was not bonding evenly to the bonnet paint. After 12 hrs, it looked patchy and hazy. I wasted about 6 hrs trying to rectify it, polishing back and re-applying, using heat or not using heat, etc.

In the end, I had to coat over the bonnet and the CQuartz with Crystal Diamond Glaze using a DA and soft pad. I don't know why, but that left it pristine....and remained pristine 13 weeks later at a maintenance visit but I ended up working til 1 AM to get that first night. You don't have that problem with a regular sealant!!! 

I think with all of these sealants, you will never get a 100% record. But it should be a pretty damn high percentage.

As for the "Warranty" offerings - I foresee trouble with these for detailers. Punters haven't a clue whether a regular sealant remains on their paint after the beading is gone, never mind one of these products. Beading means very little when you talk about protection and residual coating, and trying to educate them about it can be a complete waste of time as there are concepts they just won't ever get. :wall:


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## [email protected] (Mar 5, 2007)

Premtek Auto Detail said:


> Any idea how the measurement was taken and what with?
> 
> Russ


i did ask that question. awaiting reply


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## Spirit Detailing (Mar 29, 2007)

About 10 replies since I started to write that. Hope it makes sense where it is. I was watching the news...!!


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## MidlandsCarCare (Feb 18, 2006)

Autobrite Detailer said:


> all i can say is i ran from the information from the manufacture and please read carefully "UPTO", and im not going to be dragged into this. only time will tell what they come back with, i have send over lots of questions today in regards to how it was read (the microns), and the impact from weather curing and afterward, easy of application.
> 
> The promotional video said between 30 -40 microns but that could be lost in translation. but the "upto 30 microns" was on screen as a banner for all to see and was very clear. but only time will tell. maybe i have jumped the gun and may back track, but im man enough to say i was wrong, but its only the info i have been fed im running off.
> 
> ...


There's nothing wrong with that and I hope you don't mind me posting about this in here - it's all over Facebook for all to see anyway, I was just interested in discussing it. If the manufacturer is making those claims, then they won't be unfounded - it'll do very well potentially - really looking forward to seeing testing results.

The vid is very impressive, regardless of durability!!


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## [email protected] (Mar 5, 2007)

another detailer has also seen the promo vid and has the same info as me, its upto that person, if they feel they could just back me up, about the info within the promo video. but thats upto them, they did speak with me and said after i posted i should have really tested myself, as it could be false. 

but if a petrol station sells you something out of a petrol pump you dont ever test it first you just take there word its petrol, but on that note, just because a dog is born in a barn you wont call it a horse will you. 

catch 22


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## P.A.D (Jun 26, 2008)

Autobrite Detailer said:


> another detailer has also seen the promo vid and has the same info as me, its upto that person, if they feel they could just back me up, about the info within the promo video. but thats upto them, they did speak with me and said after i posted i should have really tested myself, as it could be false.
> 
> but if a petrol station sells you something out of a petrol pump you dont ever test it first you just take there word its petrol, but on that note, just because a dog is born in a barn you wont call it a horse will you.
> 
> catch 22


Get your point dude but 30 microns is a big claim in this business.:doublesho


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## Goodfella36 (Jul 21, 2009)

Just to back up autobrite detailer I did know the product he was talking about and the video does say 30 microns of course this is a massive claim and one that I think will be misleading but you never know.

I try a lot of different sealants as they do interest me a lot but I do see what people are saying unless you have a lot of new car protection in each month then it’s not where the bread and butter money is.


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## Reflectology (Jul 29, 2009)

G3 Glasscoat claim 20 microns...i got between 5 and 9 with a bog standard paint gauge....this has been relayed to them and they were looking into the claim as they had no hard evidence of the 20 micron claim....


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## Leemack (Mar 6, 2009)

Ceramishield will be achieving 7-10 come June when I finalise the blend but im informed we won't get much past that. I will post up the findings when it is independently tested and verified by a few people


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## Reflectology (Jul 29, 2009)

HeavenlyDetail said:


> Wax topups over a coating is a different aspect altogether , that could sustain the income... :thumb:


this is how i explain to my clients Marc....it still needs maintaining and they are happy with a wax coating second time round and subsequent visits....


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## Beau Technique (Jun 21, 2010)

Well. This has steadily curved right off from Marc's initial water spotting issue with Gtechnic C1. Not that all the info being discussed isnt interesting but is this actually getting anywhere as it seems to be going round and round again. Great if the latest product from ABD add's 30 microns. If it doesnt then true, 'tis marketing bull but we are not the police and we dont have the power to argue the toss.


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## HeavenlyDetail (Sep 22, 2006)

Nope I'm happy for this to be a generalisation of coatings and issues as this was my concern in the first place and discussion and advice etc is helpful to everyone away from the mainstreams eyes...


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## P.A.D (Jun 26, 2008)

Beau Technique said:


> Well. This has steadily curved right off from Marc's initial water spotting issue with Gtechnic C1. Not that all the info being discussed isnt interesting but is this actually getting anywhere as it seems to be going round and round again. Great if the latest product from ABD add's 30 microns. If it doesnt then true, 'tis marketing bull but we are not the police and we dont have the power to argue the toss.


No dude we are not the Police but a claim has been made of a 30 micron thick sealant with no proof as yet. I personally don't think you could lay 30 microns onto a panel evenly. especially with an applicator.

May'be from a Spraygun in a controlled enviroment but not from an app.

I have no problem at all with ABD but would have thought a bit more information would be available before making a bold statement.

Russ


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## Beau Technique (Jun 21, 2010)

Premtek Auto Detail said:


> No dude we are not the Police but a claim has been made of a 30 micron thick sealant with no proof as yet. I personally don't think you could lay 30 microns onto a panel evenly. especially with an applicator.
> 
> May'be from a Spraygun in a controlled enviroment but not from an app.
> 
> ...


What about...










:lol:


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## Reflectology (Jul 29, 2009)

Beau Technique said:


> What about...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I was waiting for this......:lol:


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## [email protected] (Mar 5, 2007)

Premtek Auto Detail said:


> No dude we are not the Police *but a claim has been made of a 30 micron thick sealant* with no proof as yet. I personally don't think you could lay 30 microns onto a panel evenly. especially with an applicator.
> 
> May'be from a Spraygun in a controlled enviroment but not from an app.
> 
> ...


UPTO! o and i now have the info back, and its correct, But anyway, im my eyes this is getting personal, so im out...!!

From the Guy in the Know>>>>

Read a By ZEHNTNER ZSH-2090 when the coating was applied on a steel.

You have to re-apply ****** **** for 20~30 layers to achieve 30 microns.


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## P.A.D (Jun 26, 2008)

Autobrite Detailer said:


> UPTO! o and i now have the info back, and its correct, But anyway, im my eyes this is getting personal, so im out...!!
> 
> From the Guy in the Know>>>>
> 
> ...


Hey dude there is no way I'm getting personal with you.

As far as I'm concerned this is a great discussion in a private area where no one else can see. The sheeting in the Vid is fantastic and I will try some of your sealant. In fact I'm looking forward to trying it.

Regards

Russ


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## Leemack (Mar 6, 2009)

BTW Russ :wave:

If you got 1.8m per layer, you can layer ceramishield easily bud so try it, see how high you can go.

Im doing it right now - Im on layer 4


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## P.A.D (Jun 26, 2008)

Hi dude.......:wave:

Are you doing sections at different layers or a whole panel?


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## Leemack (Mar 6, 2009)

Im doing 2 areas of 1ft sq


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## HeavenlyDetail (Sep 22, 2006)

HeavenlyDetail said:


> I have asked the genuine question based on what ive just read...
> 
> http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?p=3229746#post3229746
> 
> and today i was using 40 thou rubber sheeting and got my sums all wrong hahahaha...have editted.


Where has this now gone? i wasnt asked if it could be removed?


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## Reflectology (Jul 29, 2009)

Autobrite Detailer said:


> UPTO! o and i now have the info back, and its correct, But anyway, im my eyes this is getting personal, so im out...!!
> 
> From the Guy in the Know>>>>
> 
> ...


So its all got a bit confusing, the statement made of upto 30 micron is not a practical statement but one of marketing, and why would you want to apply 20-30 layers....sort of defeats the object of the practice dont you think....

It would cost a small fortune to reach that.....


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## Goodfella36 (Jul 21, 2009)

HeavenlyDetail said:


> Where has this now gone? i wasnt asked if it could be removed?


The traders pay more than us :thumb:


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## HeavenlyDetail (Sep 22, 2006)

Reflectology said:


> So its all got a bit confusing, the statement made of upto 30 micron is not a practical statement but one of marketing, and why would you want to apply 20-30 layers....sort of defeats the object of the practice dont you think....
> 
> It would cost a small fortune to reach that.....


This is where i got confused as when i multilayered 51 layers of zaino thicnkness was hardly noticeable but appearance was amazing , satisfaction was also amazing :-D
I chatted with Kelly today about this and we are gonna have a weekend with all these sealents and do a real world test once the ones i have and the ones hes getting are all together , im sure we can get some depths aswell and post real world findings , this is more the side of detailing i know most people enjoy..


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## HeavenlyDetail (Sep 22, 2006)

BespokeCarCare said:


> The traders pay more than us :thumb:


Its ok ill post again later or will accept a gallon of magifoam as an apology hahahahaha....


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## VIPER (May 30, 2007)

BespokeCarCare said:


> The traders pay more than us :thumb:


I hope that was a joke, otherwise you and I will be having words in the morning


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## HeavenlyDetail (Sep 22, 2006)

VIPER said:


> I hope that was a joke, otherwise you and I will be having words in the morning


Where did my thread go? did it get reported or something?


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## MidlandsCarCare (Feb 18, 2006)

Surely the Manufacturers can moderate their own sections?


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## HeavenlyDetail (Sep 22, 2006)

Moderate or remove what they dont want to answer? I thought that was the point of asking a question?
Moderation and removal are two different things?


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## Leemack (Mar 6, 2009)

Thats a point actually Mark, I asked Deano the other day but he was in the docs lol

Can we moderate our own sections (Stickies etc)


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## HeavenlyDetail (Sep 22, 2006)

Im not genuinely upset it was removed by Mark or whoever it was only the point it was and i just thought if people started posting negative points to problems they have in a trader section a trader can obviously just keep deleteing them all and only have happy smily threads , which to me is a little wrong. I would think a trader has the right to apply to the moderation team to remove a thread in their own section or remove anything that is untoward and not genuine lets say. but hey im cool just curious as its never happened to me without a pm before.


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## Auto Finesse (Jan 10, 2007)

You can't mod your own section, trust me iv asked (alot)


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## HeavenlyDetail (Sep 22, 2006)

so why was my thread removed then?


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## Goodfella36 (Jul 21, 2009)

VIPER said:


> I hope that was a joke, otherwise you and I will be having words in the morning


Why you dropping round the unit for a cuppa nice oxidized transporter you can get stuck in to :thumb:


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## Beau Technique (Jun 21, 2010)

HeavenlyDetail said:


> This is where i got confused as when i multilayered 51 layers of zaino thicnkness was hardly noticeable but appearance was amazing , satisfaction was also amazing :-D
> I chatted with Kelly today about this and we are gonna have a weekend with all these sealents and do a real world test once the ones i have and the ones hes getting are all together , im sure we can get some depths aswell and post real world findings , this is more the side of detailing i know most people enjoy..


Im assuming this will be trialled over a long period of time Marc? Would take a good length of time to cover all the mainstream and not so mainstream sealants to a point of being accurate surely? Or is this purely for layering and potential increase in coating thickness?


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## HeavenlyDetail (Sep 22, 2006)

It would be a thickness test for starters.... but i do already know Kelly has various long term tests going on now that are quite surprising and at some stage he will im sure post on the open forum.


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## MidlandsCarCare (Feb 18, 2006)

He has a bonnet on his roof I believe!


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## Deano (Jul 7, 2006)

HeavenlyDetail said:


> so why was my thread removed then?


the way we saw it, the questions were getting asked in here and it was getting a bit heated and as a result, we didn't want that on the open forum on what would be essentially a duplicate thread.

And I'm not trying to be horrible here mate, but we don't have to ask if it's OK to remove someones thread.


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## HeavenlyDetail (Sep 22, 2006)

Deano said:


> the way we saw it, the questions were getting asked in here and it was getting a bit heated and as a result, we didn't want that on the open forum on what would be essentially a duplicate thread.
> 
> And I'm not trying to be horrible here mate, but we don't have to ask if it's OK to remove someones thread.


But that was a genuine question from photos posted on the wide web of a product that people are genuinely interested in , for starters i didnt even know they could post in this section so i think it was a valid thread to start seeing as they had no input in here at the time and just waiting for a valid answer to follow to my question i was hoping was going to blow me away? It wasnt derogatory or taunting just "talk to me" as in give me some info? On the open forum was no relation to in here , i dont feel it was required to be removed?
Anyway , live and learn , politics i suppose.


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## Deano (Jul 7, 2006)

Fair enough mate if you posted it in their section first, but like I say as you were getting your answers in here I thought it best you "iron it out" with autobrite within the privacy of this section, and not have two threads running about the same thing.


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## HeavenlyDetail (Sep 22, 2006)

Deano said:


> Fair enough mate if you posted it in their section first, but like I say as you were getting your answers in here I thought it best you "iron it out" with autobrite within the privacy of this section, and not have two threads running about the same thing.


I will respect your decision in this BUT i did post first at 10pm , Autobrite did not reply until 10.30pm in this thread and my understanding of it was upuntil that time no answers had been given by Autobrite only speculation from members on this thread hence i asked a genuine question in their section because i am genuinely interested , they only posted in this thread half hour after that had i posted , had they posted before i wouldnt have been disrespectful to have posted in their section and am happy its been removed after they clarified their position on it. Just wanted to clarify that.....


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## [email protected] (Mar 5, 2007)

HeavenlyDetail said:


> for starters i didnt even know they could post in this section so i think it was a valid thread to start


http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=247383

You had replied to my thread.


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## HeavenlyDetail (Sep 22, 2006)

No you are Autobrite detailer not Autobrite the Trader of whom I'm presuming would be answering the questions and not posting in here but if you are all and one I'm not to know that until you had posted after the event about the product. It was after all a legitimate thread. I have also pm,ed you.
It's been removed , it's fine , I've taken the photo from my photobucket and binned it so it's all groovy...


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## HeavenlyDetail (Sep 22, 2006)

Has anyone actually used C1 on a matt finish, I noticed someone has asked in Gtechniq section but I've been very cautious as I'm concerned that there are back tracks available on matt like there is on clearcoat ifspplication etc doesn't go to plan..


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## Kelly @ KDS (Aug 4, 2008)

HeavenlyDetail said:


> Has anyone actually used C1 on a matt finish, I noticed someone has asked in Gtechniq section but I've been very cautious as I'm concerned that there are back tracks available on matt like there is on clearcoat ifspplication etc doesn't go to plan..


Yep used C1 on matt wrap , and carbon wrap (matt) worked well , but will give it slightly more shine (very slightly) think of it like the door pillars on some cars which are matt black , C1 works lovely on theses.

In fact the tests i have done with a large wrap / printing company on the MD's own cars (wrapped) tried everything to correct a carbon wrap that looked very weathered (i have pics of all this) , The car was used for 3 years in all weathers put through car washes and hand car washes (all for testing) , the end result was patchy gloss level (even thou the gloss is low to start with but even) with staining , white patches etc .

Tried every form of detailing with different techs and products , in the end the product that work the best at uniformly improving the finish and protecting it was C1 just like it does on faded stained plastics .

I can show the pics and videos If you and i remember when your next over .

:thumb:

Kelly


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## Kelly @ KDS (Aug 4, 2008)

MidlandsCarCare said:


> He has a bonnet on his roof I believe!


I certainly do , get up there once evey 2 weeks inspect then wash once a month (of course we carry it down to ground level to wash) take a if notes and pics then place it back up there .

Water spotting is worse of other "long life sealent type coatings" then C1 , But colly has none :thumb:

wax work as its got that sacifcal layer , we will see what happens when the colly has failed , i am interested to see what bare paints like for water spotting .

Got a few more panels in process for the roof too , in the future even different types of clear coat.

Kelly


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## VIPER (May 30, 2007)

Firstly I didn't remove anything - I don't know about every moderation action of the staff team as they don't need to run things past me before they do anything, so I came late to this once most of it was done.

Secondly, joke or not; if anyone thinks the admin team moderate the site on a sliding scale according to who pays the most money, then I can tell you all, that's totally incorrect! Nobody pulls the strings of the staff team on here - they're all completely unbiased and make their decisions for each case on its own merits. They do what they do volutarily and so it's not like it's in their financial interests to protect the big advertisers on here.

In fact I was that peturbed with a member only a few weeks ago, who sent us a feedback email stating we were effectively corrupt in the way we moderated DW, that I just couldn't have someone remain as a member who had that mindset and so banned him for life. It's like someone making accusations to any of you chaps that you only work to your maximum capabilities on the supercars and for the wealthy clients, and knock out any old rubbish on the 'everyday' cars - you'd take that as a personal insult and even as slander.

It's a similar thing for the admins on here - they do what they do to the best of their ability day-in-day out and for free, and to suggest they're making moderation calls from financial standpoints is, for the reason I stated above, quite ridiculous, and more than a tad insulting to be quite honest.

All that said, I do realise the comment was probably said tongue-in-cheek, and there's no harm done, but since it _was_ mentioned I thought it a timely juncture to make a clear statement about it.

Thanks
Mark


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## HeavenlyDetail (Sep 22, 2006)

Would it not be courtesy to inform a member in future if a thread they have posted is removed and maybe just a quick "just to let you know"... It would have obviously been fine and would certainly have stopped the question being asked on the forum and all lost and forgotten , i know when moderating for Vauxhall it was a requirement just to stop exactly what has just happened happening. Just a thought.
Hopefully the thread can progress now regarding coatings etc as its a knowledgeable thread for everyone.


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## Deano (Jul 7, 2006)

HeavenlyDetail said:


> Would it not be courtesy to inform a member in future if a thread they have posted is removed and maybe just a quick "just to let you know"... It would have obviously been fine and would certainly have stopped the question being asked on the forum and all lost and forgotten , i know when moderating for Vauxhall it was a requirement just to stop exactly what has just happened happening. Just a thought.
> Hopefully the thread can progress now regarding coatings etc as its a knowledgeable thread for everyone.


we get asked that a lot Marc to be honest but I'm sure you appreciate that we have enough to sort on here and stopping to send PMs and then answering the resulting "yeah but...." PM that will follow, will just take up too much time. There are six (apologise if I left anyone out gents) of us for 51k+ members, which is why I had to post this recently.

http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=246523


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## HeavenlyDetail (Sep 22, 2006)

ok i understand but to me it is a little counter productive , there were 5 of us with 20,000 members which is half appreciated but for the 30 seconds of thread deleted pm it saved countless threads asking why my thread has gone and other members then sticking their oar in creating more problems than it was worth , if thats the policy on here thats fine , just thought i would ask...
I do also appreciate the time and agro it is being a moderator , ive modded on 7 forums and run 1 and spent pretty much 10 hours a day 7 days a week with vauxhall and after 5 years it almost broke me , the grief was not worth it in the end so appreciate the job you do...


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## Mick (Jan 23, 2010)

^^^ I was broken to start with, so no worries there :lol: :thumb:


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## HeavenlyDetail (Sep 22, 2006)

lol!!!


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## MidlandsCarCare (Feb 18, 2006)

I used to run a forum and it really can take over your life! It's a thankless task tbh, but very much needed, especially on something as busy as DW!

Keep it up guys!


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## HeavenlyDetail (Sep 22, 2006)

yep i agree Russ but to be fair most forums have either an immature moderator or a headstrong want to take over the world one which luckily DW seems to have neither..

What are the odds of someone who isnt that into detailing pm,ing me this? 
Unsure if i should ask if he has the slow or fast curing bottle? This is why i feel its so dangerous people used to only super resin polish and halfords cloths using this...


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## Miglior (Feb 12, 2006)

Your absolutely right Marc!! That's only going to end in tears.


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## -Kev- (Oct 30, 2007)

i'd be more worried about the 'X' at the end of the PM :lol:


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## HeavenlyDetail (Sep 22, 2006)

-Kev- said:


> i'd be more worried about the 'X' at the end of the PM :lol:


PMSL!!!! I only just saw that , god i couldnt even use photoshop to remove it hahahaha.....
Disclaimer: i would just like to point out i have no relationship with this guy in any form other than offering to wax his front end in my closed garage....


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## -Kev- (Oct 30, 2007)

:lol:


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## HeavenlyDetail (Sep 22, 2006)

I would just like add i have posted on a c1 thread after continually reading about this 5 year guarantee and have asked the question exactly what it entails and if a car is proven to water spot with c1 what would be the outcome. If the mods feel this is unjust they have the right to remove it but its a question id like answered by an official c1 applier. I think its a fair question to ask seeing as everyone is backing this tried and tested 5 year guarantee..


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## Incredible Detail (Sep 26, 2007)

I don't think Craig should be allowed to post that he gives a 5 year warranty with C1 as it's advertising and he doesn't pay the fees. 

I think a lot of people are missing the whole point of the 5 year guarantee...


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## HeavenlyDetail (Sep 22, 2006)

He has posted it so he can answer it but surprisingly the question hadn't been answered. A 5 year guarantee means jack sh1t really if the product doesnt protect the surface of the car ,When my customers read with a 5 year guarantee they would automatically presume it's on the surface for 5 years doing it's job protecting the paintwork like a barrier of crystal which personally I dont think c1 could ever achieve , in my opinion it's just a misleading statement , what exactly does it guarantee?


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## MidlandsCarCare (Feb 18, 2006)

Would it last that long with C2 topping it every month though? Doesn't the warranty suggest you need to use C2 regularly? Which of course begs the question of why you'd want C1 in the first place

I'm only happy to quote 18 months+ on Opti Coat if washed correctly but I'm nervous doing this as I've not witnessed it for myself. 

Was the longest documented duration anyone has seen from any of these coatings on a daily driver? Claims and simulations aren't good enough IMO.


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## Leemack (Mar 6, 2009)

I offer 2 years to Audi and it is real world tested on a daily and actually survived 27 months. If they want an extended warranty then they must top ceramishield with iShell every 6 months. 

I'd say opti coat would last Russ but again, I've never used it so my opinion means nothing as I've not tried it.


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## Reflectology (Jul 29, 2009)

I am with Marc on the whole guarantee thing....yeah maybe it would sit on the surface for 5yrs, and the Williams F1 branded G3 Glasscoat which i have used and have seen in action after five years of initial application does stay put but how is it going to stop anything sitting on top of it, it will still need maintaining IMO so these 5yr warranty's should come only with a maintenance plan then the customer would know his warranty is void if no maintenance is booked in....I believe Gtechniq have that in there somewhere unless i am mistaken....it would then be the choice of the customer to accept a warranty or not then they would know exactly where they stand....


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## HeavenlyDetail (Sep 22, 2006)

The thing is Russ I believe in a little transparency with these warrantys etc because with wax you accept conditions play a part and zymol Swissvax etc do not guarantee any form of warranty because you can't and we accept that. The thing is this warranty was drawn up and cleverly marketed at such a time as c1 was supposed to be dealer applied only and even then I've asked the question what happens if it doesn't do the job , is the applied going to come out and redo the car if it happens every month? Every 6 months? A question Craig has posted so I'd like an answer really for transparency for people to see. The reason is because I think it's all very misleading NOW because it's gone against the original plan and is sold to the public , I'm sure everyone is seeing 5 year warranty stickers and quotes and believing wrongly they can do their own car and it will be protected for 5 years even with topping up with c2 I still don't believe it, my Kangoo van had c2 on and then c1 as Kelly well knows and just before I sold it I wasn't convinced it was protected as it should be , etching had begun in places I couldn't remove and had this been a customers car would they have had the right to contact me saying it's not working so I want my moneyback or redone as per the 5 year guarantee? Very sticky ground especially as it's all about money now not a pro application product. I was one of Gtechniq biggest fans when it came out linking to their products and speaking to Rob, and even coating my own work vehicle in it instead of Celeste to show people when I turned up but I can't help thinking they have sold their soul now going public and totally devalued the product for what it Is supposed to be , the product in c4 and 5 form is great In my opinion but with anyone now being able to
Buy it it's lost it's credibility especially as it hadn't worked for me and alot of detailers I've spoken to who have tried it...


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## ProCarDetailing (Nov 25, 2011)

I'm glad I'm not alone in reading this guarantee and thinking "surely not!".

Never having tried the product I have zero grounds to base my gut feeling on however. 
I did ask for info about it and was offered the chance to pay £1k or whatever it was to be approved, bu thought that kind of money would be better spent elsewhere in my business.

Paul


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## Reflectology (Jul 29, 2009)

ProCarDetailing said:


> I'm glad I'm not alone in reading this guarantee and thinking "surely not!".
> 
> Never having tried the product I have zero grounds to base my gut feeling on however.
> I did ask for info about it and was offered the chance to pay £1k or whatever it was to be approved, bu thought that kind of money would be better spent elsewhere in my business.
> ...


thats strange because I too was asked to become approved but the cash outlay was FAR FAR more than 1k....


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## Leemack (Mar 6, 2009)

A Grand :doublesho

What did you get for that?


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## HeavenlyDetail (Sep 22, 2006)

A 5 year warranty certificate with no instructions... 
Still waiting for my answer online.


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## MidlandsCarCare (Feb 18, 2006)

It's £350 or so up front and you spend a day down there then £50 per month I believe?

You get a decent discount and able to use the 5 year warranty as you're approved.


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## Leemack (Mar 6, 2009)

Wow 

How many guys are approved?


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## HeavenlyDetail (Sep 22, 2006)

which is what? Everyone ive ever asked has been skirted about and not been answered , the guy on the thread has even said the same and done the course.


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## MidlandsCarCare (Feb 18, 2006)

Well I'm phoning Rob tomorrow to discuss it.

Quite a few on here are approved so could answer it....


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## -Kev- (Oct 30, 2007)

Concours Car Care said:


> Wow
> 
> How many guys are approved?


what do you charge and whats the warranty period with Ceramishield?


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## MidlandsCarCare (Feb 18, 2006)

Concours Car Care said:


> Wow
> 
> How many guys are approved?


Quite a few...

http://service.gtechniq.com/where/


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## HeavenlyDetail (Sep 22, 2006)

smoke and mirrors springs to mind , i cant see Gtechniq wanting cars coming back at their expense when the product fails in the 5 year period which they cant even prove hasnt been removed within that period inbetween top ups which pointed out if c2 is used isnt even the same product at all and not even from the same manufacturing process. I think some transparency is required to be fair. Does anyone know why a new car gets an extra 2 years over a car that isnt new but with the same preparation?


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## MidlandsCarCare (Feb 18, 2006)

Have you read through the warranty terms though - the owner MUST send the vehicle back every 18 months for an inspection. I'm not sure what is expected of an accredited detailer at this stage - I think it's fair to say that it will last 18 months if maintained properly, so perhaps it's reapplied if required?


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## Goodfella36 (Jul 21, 2009)

This what you are after mark

http://service.gtechniq.com/files/uk_warranty_low_res.pdf

I was asked last march to become accredited but at £950 pounds and just moving in to new unit was just too much you get two full kits included in that well you did back then as Russ has said you pay so much up front now and rest monthly

Be interesting to hear of the other pros if they have got much work from it as it is a popular brand at the moment.

http://service.gtechniq.com/where/

A lot of people have paid the money


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## HeavenlyDetail (Sep 22, 2006)

MidlandsCarCare said:


> Have you read through the warranty terms though - the owner MUST send the vehicle back every 18 months for an inspection. I'm not sure what is expected of an accredited detailer at this stage - I think it's fair to say that it will last 18 months if maintained properly, so perhaps it's reapplied if required?


So its inspected and not there anymore or wained badly , so the detailer has to reapply free of charge because its covered upto 5 years? My c1 certainly wouldnt have lasted 18 months and the black vec didnt last a month , would they then under the warranty recorrect and reapply free


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## MidlandsCarCare (Feb 18, 2006)

HeavenlyDetail said:


> So its inspected and not there anymore or wained badly , so the detailer has to reapply free of charge because its covered upto 5 years? My c1 certainly wouldnt have lasted 18 months and the black vec didnt last a month , would they then under the warranty recorrect and reapply free


Presumably yes - I asked Kelly the same question when I was at his...

It's potentially a ticking time bomb and after 18 months if you did need to re-apply then I'd imagine it wouldn't be a quick job.

What happened with the Vec you refer to?

Do Nanolex claim any specific durability lengths? Any 'warranty based' claim is a VERY brave move IMO.

Lee, no disrespect to some of your guys but one said they did a full cerami detail in 4 hours and that was outside when it was cold. Would you honour the warranty under those conditions or is it just something you do specifically via Audi and applied under your controlled conditions? I'd assume slapping it on outdoors would affect durability or isn't it as fussy as C1?

I will only offer it (GT) if my questions on the 5 year warranty are satisfied...


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## HeavenlyDetail (Sep 22, 2006)

I just read this warranty if im honest as a total nightmare for the detailer not the company.

Gtechniq Gtechniq C1 will safeguard the treated surface under the terms and conditions listed below. Should the treated factory painted surfaces be damaged by fading or loss of gloss, bird droppings, tree sap, bug splatter, colour fading and the sun’s harmful UV rays, GTechniq will repair or clean (at its option) any failed section and retreat the damaged area at no cost to the owner providing that the owner maintains the vehicle in the manner described in this brochure and the online Gtechniq registration form (terms & conditions).

Loss of Gloss , bird droppings , tree sap , all of which affected my kangoo but i didnt worry about it but under these terms id be taking it back an expecting it to be removed and reapplied and all under the 18 month bracket. I bet if this kind of thing happened the buck would be passed pretty quickly and the statement Gtechniq will repair or clean at no cost to the owner would turn into the company who applied it. 
Im interested knowing the outcome of this warranty in real world terms not whats printed on a brochure designed to impress and sell a product.


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## MidlandsCarCare (Feb 18, 2006)

I may well be a numbers game though - I read somewhere recently about the number of claims made under warranty for Lifeshine is so tiny, it isn't a real problem.

I think the issue with GTechniq is, it's aimed generally at people who are a little more clued up and to that end will be more expectant in terms of its performance.

I fear you're right Marc... it'll all land on the detailer to sort.


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## HeavenlyDetail (Sep 22, 2006)

Of course it will , if the detailer is in scotland and the car gets bug splats every 2 weeks that he cant remove is Rob prepared to continually pay the detailer his 3 hours work machining the bonnet out and reapplying C1? Has anyone actually asked them? I would think the answer would be the Abuse clause that it wasnt removed within 10 minutes or something similar.


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## MidlandsCarCare (Feb 18, 2006)

Exactly but who handles the angry customer?


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## MidlandsCarCare (Feb 18, 2006)

I think I'll stick to waxes too tbh... 

The question is Marc, how long does CD V2 last and I want guarantees


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## Goodfella36 (Jul 21, 2009)

Gtech have gone same way as dealer applied coatings as russ said the come back is so small that supaguard will just chuck a free pack or to for the dealer to reapply as they sell so many and have so little come back that money wise its not a problem 

I would stop worrying about it mark and get testing some Opticoat :thumb:


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## MidlandsCarCare (Feb 18, 2006)

BespokeCarCare said:


> Gtech have gone same way as dealer applied coatings as russ said the come back is so small that supaguard will just chuck a free pack or to for the dealer to reapply as they sell so many and have so little come back that money wise its not a problem
> 
> I would stop worrying about it mark and get testing some Opticoat :thumb:


Are you preferring it to Nanolex Lee?

It's a shame Optimum isn't very well marketed in the UK, OC doesn't get enough attention IMO. What are you quoting from it? 12 months?

I've been asked to apply it to 4 cars, but all are active on here - not many people outside of DW have heard of Optimum, let alone OC 2.0 - this is the issue. Plus the market is now being flooded with these coatings - there are at least 10 options widely available.


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## HeavenlyDetail (Sep 22, 2006)

MidlandsCarCare said:


> I think I'll stick to waxes too tbh...
> 
> The question is Marc, how long does CD V2 last and I want guarantees


I give a 10 year guarantee Russ if followed with my protection plan which is washed by me daily and applied once a week... you then get a Heavenly Sticker which is £995 and free application :argie:


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## Goodfella36 (Jul 21, 2009)

MidlandsCarCare said:


> Are you preferring it to Nanolex Lee?
> 
> It's a shame Optimum isn't very well marketed in the UK, OC doesn't get enough attention IMO. What are you quoting from it? 12 months?
> 
> I've been asked to apply it to 4 cars, but all are active on here - not many people outside of DW have heard of Optimum, let alone OC 2.0 - this is the issue. Plus the market is now being flooded with these coatings - there are at least 10 options widely available.


Had the golf back for its forth wash last Friday ( 3 months) still not a swirl in it and really does clean so easy opticoat has so far impressed me though ask me again in 12 months have ds3 booked 4th of feb for opticoat I have used them all all of them have their good and bad points same as us pros we all prefer certain sealants or waxes

Nanolex is very good just don't get asked for it that much the marketing side in UK needs more work I think Florian started off well now gone bit quiet


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## Leemack (Mar 6, 2009)

MidlandsCarCare said:


> Presumably yes - I asked Kelly the same question when I was at his...
> 
> It's potentially a ticking time bomb and after 18 months if you did need to re-apply then I'd imagine it wouldn't be a quick job.
> 
> ...


Hi mate

Controlled conditions only and the warranty is only in force from Audi's temp controlled bay - Other audi centres get inspected for compatibility first.

Its nowhere near as fussy no.

I dont offer a warranty to anyone but Audi dude


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## Defined Reflections (Jun 4, 2009)

MidlandsCarCare said:


> It's £350 or so up front and you spend a day down there then £50 per month I believe?
> 
> You get a decent discount and able to use the 5 year warranty as you're approved.


Its £420 then £60 per month for advertising,i've been chatting to rob myself but im now having second thoughts


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## MidlandsCarCare (Feb 18, 2006)

Defined Reflections said:


> Its £420 then £60 per month for advertising,i've been chatting to rob myself but im now having second thoughts


It's gone up then...

He had to clear mine with another detailer first, which I found very bizarre!

I do wonder if any of these affiliations are worthwhile - it seems best to just use whichever products you favour as and when. Especially when you can buy it (C1) anyway.


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## P.A.D (Jun 26, 2008)

MidlandsCarCare said:


> It's gone up then...
> 
> He had to clear mine with another detailer first, which I found very bizarre!
> 
> I do wonder if any of these affiliations are worthwhile - it seems best to just use whichever products you favour as and when. Especially when you can buy it (C1) anyway.


Absolutely dude.

Just use the best product for the job in hand.


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## Defined Reflections (Jun 4, 2009)

MidlandsCarCare said:


> It's gone up then...
> 
> He had to clear mine with another detailer first, which I found very bizarre!
> 
> I do wonder if any of these affiliations are worthwhile - it seems best to just use whichever products you favour as and when. Especially when you can buy it (C1) anyway.


You was right but without the VAT:thumb:


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## MidlandsCarCare (Feb 18, 2006)

Defined Reflections said:


> You was right but without the VAT:thumb:


Ahh of course... cheers :thumb:


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## WHIZZER (Oct 25, 2005)

gtechrob said:


> permanon has always been on the bottles of c2 since day 1.
> 
> just to pick up on some of the other points that have come up here.
> 
> ...


I saw this and also on reflection think we should get a balanced view so I have ask Rob to comment with regards the question about watermarks

Lets hope he comes back to me


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## HeavenlyDetail (Sep 22, 2006)

It hasn't answered my question at all just replied as a politician would and I've heard most of that said before and not from his lips.
I shall ask the questions on the thread when I'm off my phone when I can, we are also only relieing on his handful of people considering 3 issues have arisen from 2 people in here, how many don't we know about?


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## WHIZZER (Oct 25, 2005)

HeavenlyDetail said:


> It hasn't answered my question at all just replied as a politician would and I've heard most of that said before and not from his lips.
> I shall ask the questions on the thread when I'm off my phone when I can, we are also only relieing on his handful of people considering 3 issues have arisen from 2 people in here, how many don't we know about?


Mark - I think Rob has taken on board comments and is trying to answer in a diplomatic way - I have asked the question directly to him so hopefully he will come back to me but the above certainly is a good start


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## HeavenlyDetail (Sep 22, 2006)

WHIZZER said:


> Mark - I think Rob has taken on board comments and is trying to answer in a diplomatic way - I have asked the question directly to him so hopefully he will come back to me but the above certainly is a good start


Yep he has decided to pm me rather than post on the thread.


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## Ronnie (Nov 15, 2006)

on the contrary Marc that is quite a worrying post when you actually read it. It makes you think where these nano-particle (we really should call them what they are as they are NOT nano) sealants fit in when compared to traditional sealants for example Zaino which offer a better "tunability" cost much less are easier to apply and remove by design with their only real downside is they are more prone to removal bymild surfactants like shampoo. 
basically that statement reads they are amazing as long as you dont let thecar get dirty and maintain a fastidious cleaning regime. By indicating the issues then they will also be affected by acidic wheel cleaners etc etc and be significantly degraged by the likes of AS fallout remover for example.. 

This I must say is becoming a very interesting thread thats for sure..


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## HeavenlyDetail (Sep 22, 2006)

Rollo your obviously getting more clued up about all this more than i am. Once ive had a reply from some questions ive asked regarding the above i will ask the questions i want answered on the thread for all to see so its transparent not via pm. Thats all for now.


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## Ronnie (Nov 15, 2006)

no worries would like to have a chat with you as I have somehting for you to try that may be of interest. The more you work with these products the more frustrating the marketing hype becomes have several now on an advanced atmosphere test rig so it will be interesting to see what comes of it.


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## Kelly @ KDS (Aug 4, 2008)

Just to throw this one into all the Nano tech coatings and 5 year warranty .

Have a good look at this link , you will need to click on the right button to get to the pics of customers car with williams Glass coatings on his car (the first are adverts from the dealership) .

Its been done by dealership (not a detailer) have a good look at the pics and laugh and feel the customers pain too


__
https://flic.kr/p/6725893769

now what is the customer going to think , coating problem or apllication problem or both .

These type of products need carefully application (with controlled conditons if possible) to get the most from it .

kelly


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## VIPER (May 30, 2007)

Christ on a bike!!! Application problem? I should say so!!! Rushing were they by any chance?


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## Kelly @ KDS (Aug 4, 2008)

VIPER said:


> Christ on a bike!!! Application problem? I should say so!!! Rushing were they by any chance?


i want to see what its like when its dry and in full view of the sun :lol:

yuo now its going to be great 

kelly


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## Over The Rainbow (Aug 30, 2011)

LOL! The strip on the roof is the best bit for me.


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## HeavenlyDetail (Sep 22, 2006)

WHIZZER said:


> I saw this and also on reflection think we should get a balanced view so I have ask Rob to comment with regards the question about watermarks
> 
> Lets hope he comes back to me


Yep, im also awaiting some answers about this thread....


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## WHIZZER (Oct 25, 2005)

HeavenlyDetail said:


> Yep, im also awaiting some answers about this thread....


I thought Rob pm you - Shall I get him to contact you directly so you can chat about it - pm me a contact number ?


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## WHIZZER (Oct 25, 2005)

WHIZZER said:


> I saw this and also on reflection think we should get a balanced view so I have ask Rob to comment with regards the question about watermarks
> 
> Lets hope he comes back to me


Please feel free to PM - happy to talk - Mark this is why the question has been asked to Rob - there is no leak ref this thread - as above I asked for Rob's opinion as I think it needed a balance view and input from the manufacturer.


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## HeavenlyDetail (Sep 22, 2006)

Thanks...


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## HeavenlyDetail (Sep 22, 2006)

Can i ask if anyone has applied C1 to a matt vehicle and if it caused any issues please or went as planned? Thanks...


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