# Wash induced marring?



## Benfr16

So I have posted a number of times now asking for help with my black seat ibiza.

I have tried many different methods to remove swirls from my paint and have generally improved the finish.

After the initial correction it looked great but after washing for the first time, I could see very fine marring in the paint and came and asked for help. I had overlooked the importance of IPA wipe so I bought IPA and tried again but had little success in improving the paint further. I won't type up everything I have done as its quite long but essentially I think my paint is soft as I had a go on my drivers side door with Menz 3500 and a white pad. Following 100% IPA wipedown, the paint looked great. I sealed it with autoallure toughseal. I've been keeping my eye out all week and haven't noticed any imperfections in the paint apart from a small area I may have missed right at the bottom of the door.

Heres an image prior to sealing: 


__
https://flic.kr/p/YXxmxj

And a quick inspection showing no swirls:





Today I have washed the car with clean equipment and a 2 bucket method + grit guard. (Shampoo - AG Body conditioner). It now appears that the same marring has returned to some extent.

This is from today: 


Vid from today showing the same door with imperfections:





Just for evidence that my equipment isn't dodgey, here is a pic of my lower body wash mitt and drying towels. 






My wash process involves fully soaking the car with a hose, using a 2BM to wash the top half first, then the bottom half. I dry with blotting with a waffle weave and collect any missed areas with a microfibre towel.

I'm almost at the point of giving up on trying to sort it out! I know black cars are notorious but I just seem to go round in circles with this issue! I think its wash related based on the direction and length of the marring (appears to be similar to the direction and length of a swipe I would take with the wash mitt).

Any ideas on how this issue could be solved would be great!  Thanks


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## Christian6984

Benfr16 said:


> My wash process involves fully soaking the car with a hose, washing the top half first, then the bottom half using a 2BM. I dry with blotting with a waffle weave and collect any missed areas with a microfibre towel.


Quick question, you say you wash the lower half of the car 2BM, do you not wash the whole thing 2BM, if so at what point of the lower half are you using your second bucket?


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## Benfr16

Yes sorry for not making that clear. The whole car 2BM. Image of mitt used on lower half of vehicle.


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## Benfr16

The images are after use of these products today as well. They don't appear to be particularly dirty.


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## Christian6984

have to admit they appear to be clean enough, do they go through the washing machine before you use each time? 

How dirty was the car and any use of snow foam or pre wash?


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## mac1459

I've never found Seat paint to be soft , My son owning 2 , 1 white Ibiza & 1 grey metallic Leon . Do you ever use a QD after drying.
Last time i wash marred my own car was using to little shampoo.
Does the marring disappear if you wipe with a QD?
mac


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## Benfr16

Hi mac I have considered this before and I remember you commented on a post I had made a few months back. I don't really use QD and currently don't have any QD. I tend not to do anything with the paint in between washes. What are you thinking regarding that?


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## Benfr16

Christian6984 said:


> have to admit they appear to be clean enough, do they go through the washing machine before you use each time?
> 
> How dirty was the car and any use of snow foam or pre wash?


The car wasn't too bad. It has done 250 miles max this week and it hasn't really rained too bad while I've been on the road. Just standard thin film of dirt.

Regarding the washing between each car clean, I would be a liar if I said I ALWAYS wash them between. But I had washed them all prior to this wash as I wanted to rule out as many factors if the marring returned. I wash with non bio gel tab and white vinegar in the softener section of the drawer.

I don't use any snow foams or pre washes. My hopes were that an initial correction then a good wash once weekly would be a cost effective way to keep car in good shape but as most, the costs keep creeping up!

In terms of shampoo, I think the AG shampoo suggests two caps and I tend to use roughly 3 - one in bottom of bucket, one on the mitt and one inside the mitt. I tend to do a bit more than a cap for each of these as I just squirt it instead of dosing with the cap.


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## mac1459

sorry ben we'll forget about the QD as you feel this is happening during the wash , never used AG shampoo ,does your mitt glide over the surface ,sounds like you are using plenty to lubricate , always used DJ born to be mild on my past black car and still use on present car. 
Is it just the one door that is showing this marring or all off the car ?
I would off thought the tough coat should help to prevent this happening.
mac


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## Christian6984

Benfr16 said:


> The car wasn't too bad. It has done 250 miles max this week and it hasn't really rained too bad while I've been on the road. Just standard thin film of dirt.
> 
> Regarding the washing between each car clean, I would be a liar if I said I ALWAYS wash them between. But I had washed them all prior to this wash as I wanted to rule out as many factors if the marring returned. I wash with non bio gel tan and white vinegar in the softener section of the drawer.
> 
> I don't use any snow foams or pre washes. My hopes were that an initial correction then a good wash once weekly would be a cost effective way to keep car in good shape but as most, the costs keep creeping up!
> 
> In terms of shampoo, I think the AG shampoo suggests two caps and I tend to use roughly 3 - one in bottom of bucket, one on the mitt and one inside the mitt. I tend to do a bit more than a cap for each of these as I just squirt it instead of dosing with the cap.


Hmm, running low on ideas, as you say the fact you washed all the mitts and cloths before washing eliminates the risk here so it would seem. Your using enough shampoo by sounds of it. on the sides of the car are the panels staying wet keeping any remaining dirt soft by time you get round to it? just thinking using a hose doesn't always remove as much muck as a power washer would.


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## fethead

How about trying to reduce the marring by foaming via a lance. I have the same problem with BMW paint. Just can't seem to not marr the bloody thing and feel that my technique is good. I've started to foam and pressure wash off to try and sort this as I am a perfectionist.


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## chongo

Now looking at your videos and reading what you have done makes me think that you are not removing the defects with the combination you have used, white polishing pad with 3500 you have probably just improved your gloss only plus if you don't have the correct light source then it's hard to know 100% if you have corrected it properly. Your cars paint is usually hard paint so maybe you need to step up your polish and pad to remove them next time.


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## Benfr16

Yeah I am wondering if this is the case as I'm too short on ideas. There's still dirt present on the panels but as I can remember the panel was still wet. 

Regarding if it's the whole car, it is but I have focussed on this area as I planned to correct this door, see if it stays in good condition and then do the whole car if that was the case! 

There's always a chance I induced marring when applying the tough seal. I used some standard wax applicator - a cheap eBay type one. But as I said it looks like the kind of swipes I'd take with the wash mitt. 

My dads got a power washer that we share with a neighbour so could potentially get a snow lance but as I say, the cost just keeps going up and up! 

Another idea would be to not use IPA and then seal as the oil might give a bit more lubrication to the application of toughseal - although I know t would reduce longevity


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## Benfr16

chongo said:


> Now looking at your videos and reading what you have done makes me think that you are not removing the defects with the combination you have used, white polishing pad with 3500 you have probably just improved your gloss only plus if you don't have the correct light source then it's hard to know 100% if you have corrected it properly. Your cars paint is usually hard paint so maybe you need to step up your polish and pad to remove them next time.


This could be the case. I have previously used UC and an orange pad more than once.

I do have M101 and a flexipads MF cutting pad so could have a go with that some time.

Do you think that "improving the gloss" would be enough to hide these defects following 100% IPA wipedown?

Additionally, if I am not removing them, surely it would look "as bad" as the rest of the car?

I'm not saying that this is the case. I am just confused!!


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## Soul boy 68

How about, PW rinse, apply TFR, PWR then foam before PWR again then go for the 2BM maybe a long winded approach but I'm confident it will help sort the problem out emmensly. Give that a try and tells us all how you get on.


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## HEADPHONES

I use a modified 2BM wash after a prewash soak and rinse.
When first introduced to DW and the 2BM wash I was amazed by the grit in the rinse bucket and was immediately a follower of the teachings on the forum.

I now use 2 mitts.
Shampoo bucket mitt only ever goes in the clean shampoo and is held in my left hand.
This gradually applies a constant flow of clean shampoo over an area while the rinse bucket mitt on my right hand does the actual gentle bodywork passes.
After the shampoo runs out on the shampoo mitt, it dips into the shampoo bucket while the rinse/wash mitt goes in the rinse bucket nd I wash the next section.
End result is the amount of grit left in the rinse bucket is more than halved!

My thinking is to wash grit off the paint as gently as you would wash grit outta YOUR EYE.
You'd instinctively wash your eye under running water.
The above method is as close as I can practically get to that.
Give it a go. It's easy and free:thumb:


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## Benfr16

Just to check I've understood. Are you saying you kind of use one mitt to collect soap from the bucket and then allow the shampoo to run down the paint, wiping with the other hand?


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## Christian6984

Benfr16 said:


> Just to check I've understood. Are you saying you kind of use one mitt to collect soap from the bucket and then allow the shampoo to run down the paint, wiping with the other hand?


if im along the same lines then im thinking the suggestion is a perfectly clean shampoo bucket mitt soaks the panel and a second mitt cleans the panel gently as the soap from the first has kept the panel wet and stop you dragging dry dirt across the paint.

My other alternative would be to get some ONR and dilute in a spray bottle and spray a panel or two your about to work on and allow it to encapsulate some dirt before touching it maybe


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## HEADPHONES

Benfr16 said:


> Just to check I've understood. Are you saying you kind of use one mitt to collect soap from the bucket and then allow the shampoo to run down the paint, wiping with the other hand?


Yes.
But not just wetting the panel for the other hand to gently wash but providing a constant gentle stream of clean shampoo while washing.
Almost as if you're cleaning the car as the shampoo rains down from above:lol:
But maybe before you do even that you can use a pump sprayer to soak the car in prewash like PowerMaxed Jetwash and Wax, power rinse or just hose rinse if no pressure washer and then go with the mitts.
You could even use a sponge in the shampoo bucket as it never actually touches the paint:thumb:


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## steelghost

Benfr16 said:


> I don't use any snow foams or pre washes. My hopes were that an initial correction then a good wash once weekly would be a cost effective way to keep car in good shape but as most, the costs keep creeping up!


I think the lack of a pre-wash is a big part of the problem. Just wetting the car with a hose will still leave fine dirt particles on the paint. Good news is that this is not an expensive thing to sort. Get yourself some Bilt Hamber Auto Foam (£17) and a pump sprayer (~£15). Make up a 4% solution of the Auto Foam in the sprayer, apply liberally to the whole car. Leave for five minutes and rinse off thoroughly, ideally with a pressure washer, but a hose will do the job. Then proceed with your 2BM.


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## scuba-phil

Are you doing a pre wash/foam?


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## Summit Detailing

As someone else has mentioned above I'm not entirely convinced a hose down as the initial rinse is man enough - get yourself a PW, probably the best £100 you'll spend.

One way of testing to see if it's the wash process or drying stage inflicting the marring would be to use the drying towel vertically as opposed to horizontally.
If you notice a change in direction of the marring you've found your culprit.

Another option could be to get in touch with a detailer local to you and pop over for them to cast an eye over the whole car and the panel in question - seeing pics/video's on the internet is one thing, seeing the object in person is quite often entirely different.

cheers

Chris


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## Benfr16

scuba-phil said:


> Are you doing a pre wash/foam?


Nope! I was kinda under the impression that this was like an optional extra to aid with the process rather than a necessity


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## chongo

Either way you would be better getting yourself a PW and doing a pre wash before you do your 2BW. If your saying that after your correction the paint looked fine but these appeared after your wash then it just could be you and your technique.

Correct a panel or two and then go through your wash routine on the panels and see if you have left any marring. To leave any wash marring you must have very soft paint or hands&arms like Thor. Anyway you will need to machine polish it again to get rid of them or you could just mask them with a filler glaze.


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## gibbo555

Have to agree, that the initial rinse down with a hose simply isn't enough to dislodge enough grime before touching the paintwork. You need a powerhose, prewash and or snow foam for effective safe washing in my opinion.

I've had several people say to me after pre wash and foam while washing, you have no need to wash your car with a mitt ,or sponge as they said, the car is spotless already.


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## Benfr16

Hopefully it's the hands and arms like Thor lol.. 

Will bare this in mind guys cheers


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## SkyRocket

Not sure if this helps, but something I have to constantly remind myself is:

"Stop scrubbing the paint".

Let the wash mitt and the shampoo do the work, and gently glide the mitt over the paint. The more pressure you apply through the mitt, the more likely you are to cause marring.


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## steelghost

All paint is soft compared to the potential particles of gritty dust being drawn across it. Look into proper pre-washing, in the long run it'll save you huge amounts of time and effort :thumb:


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## Benfr16

Cheers. Do you think it could explain the issues i'm having? Very short on money so will probably leave it a while but it will bug me over time and have to be corrected lol.


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## steelghost

Yes I do. Road film is a mixture of diesel, tyre dust, and fine grit, in varying proportions depending on the driving you've been doing. You can shift some of the bigger stuff with a hose, and if you have a pressure washer it's a bit more effective; however the combination of both is leaps and bounds ahead of just using a hose on its own. Even using a decent pre-wash and then a house is still substantially better than just water alone.

The point here being that even with the most careful two bucket method, the plushest wash mitt and the most lubricious shampoo, if you place the mitt on a panel with particles of grit on it, some of those particles will be drawn over the panel with sufficient force to cause marring. An effective pre-wash routine will dramatically reduce the amount of damaging material on the paint when you come to the wash stage. It won't eliminate all wash marring, but it can greatly reduce the likelihood and severity of it.


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## [email protected]

I haven't read through the whole thread, but IPA isn't strong enough to remove all the polishing oils and fillers from the paint after polishing. You should use panel wipe from gtechniq. 

Apologies if this has already been mentioned. 

Sent from my SM-T800 using Tapatalk


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## Benfr16

Hasn't been mentioned. Thanks


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## Titanium Htail

As the owner of two black cars, that pre-wash snowfoam is essential, do a make-up pad wipe with your hose technique to see the dirt prior to washing. The use of a pw is mandatory at every stage, Jim White whitedetails, recommends.

I still wash the lower half of the car with an alternative mitt, so no contact between those upper and lower sections.

As mentioned the acid test, is how much grit residue you have in your rinse bucket.

As you touching it less is helpful so no interim qd every good contact starts with a pre-wash snow and 2bm.

Good luck. John Tht.


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