# F1 Race



## The happy goat (Jun 26, 2019)

Does anyone else think Max was really aggressive in todays race? Or was it hard racing?


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## Derekh929 (Aug 28, 2011)

He thought it was death race 2000 he was in , if he raced at some local tracks here he would get DQ’ed then beaten up, with his ridiculous dangerous driving.
Spice boy will send spice girl over to Masai’s office to thank him, and penalise hammy for next race, job done for RBR Panto season :lol:
Just go to Twitter for an answer to that


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## atbalfour (Aug 11, 2019)

Derekh929 said:


> He thought it was death race 2000 he was in , if he raced at some local tracks here he would get DQ'ed then beaten up, with his ridiculous dangerous driving.
> Spice boy will send spice girl over to Masai's office to thank him, and penalise hammy for next race, job done for RBR Panto season
> Just go to Twitter for an answer to that


Good to see Max putting up a fight to insufferable Lewis. He's driven the wheels off that car and deserves the championship.. Has had so much bad luck from Baku to Hungary to Silverstone, to the grid pen at Qatar to Q3 on that barnstormer of a lap this weekend.

There are massive inconsistencies in stewarding over the last 3 events.. what's not a penalty in Brazil is now a pen. I think Mercedes have got away with plenty this weekend and the coverage has such a Hamilton/Norris/Russell bias.. Long forgotten are the ignoring of the double yellow flags (valid or not), nearly rear ending Mazepin, pushing Max onto the run off during the race before rear ending him. Max isn't exactly an angel but you have to respect him for being there to putting up a fight rather than pander to the Mercedes dominance.

I'm shocked more of the media / fans aren't wise to the facade.

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## Darlofan (Nov 24, 2010)

Shocking driving from Max that needs looking at. No doubting he's a good driver and when his car is going well and he has the edge he's ok. But as he has shown, as soon as his car lacks the pace he struggles under pressure and has to resort to running wide etc.

The brake checking incident yesterday was an absolute shocker and surely needs looking at, all the data is there to prove it.

Problem now is, last race of the season and Max knows if they both do not finish he wins the championship on races won so he has nothing to lose in a first corner incident. I see a Schumacher type accident happening.

Quickly becoming bored of safety car/red flag use too. It seems to be too common and a lot of the time just used to bunch them back up again.


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## sharrkey (Sep 11, 2017)

Epic race!!

Dirty dangerous driving from Max, Best driver won on the day. 
Can't wait for next weekend, but damn what a year of F1 we have had

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## The Cueball (Feb 8, 2007)

Ohh.. In before the lock of the "my millionaire sportsman is better than your millionaire sportsman" thread...

:lol:

:thumb:


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## The Sheriff (Jul 15, 2008)

These street circuits (like Monaco) make rubbish F1 races, the cars outgrew them long ago (size and speed). There's a car at the side of the track - safety car/red flag, there's a bit of carbon fibre on the track - safety car, a crisp packet blew on to track- stop race.


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## The happy goat (Jun 26, 2019)

Problem now is, last race of the season and Max knows if they both do not finish he wins the championship on races won so he has nothing to lose in a first corner incident. I see a Schumacher type accident happening.


So do I hopefully something will be done to prevent this!


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## Imteyaz (Mar 14, 2010)

For anyone wondering about Lewis running in to the back of MV:

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/full-fia-stewards-verdict-on-verstappens-saudi-gp-f1-penalty/6854919/"]

"Car 33 then braked suddenly (69 Bar) and significantly, resulting in 2.4g deceleration."


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## percymon (Jun 27, 2007)

He only needed to lift slightly for a normal overtake from Lewis, but of course he wanted to get braking done before the DRS zone to capitalise straight away.

Whilst the season has been one of the more exciting ones of late its been marred by incidents where drivers take avoiding action because another can't make a corner, or deliberately run wide forcing another off. We've been here before with Prost and Senna, its only natural as top sports people only want one thing and will do everything they can to be it. Sadly some of Max's antics are more akin to a driver strugglingn to be what they were (aka Vettel a few years ago), when in fact he has a good future ahead and doesnt need these blots on his reputation


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## Mikesphotaes (Jul 24, 2016)

The guy's an absolute nutter!


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## atbalfour (Aug 11, 2019)

Or fighting with inferior machinery. 

Merc clearly sandbagging first half of the season, when someone as spineless as Bottas is regularly on the podium that tells you how good that car is. Brazil extent of dominance - two cars a lap - should not happen.

Is it any wonder Max is more aggressive - he's fundamentally different and an out and out racer - no more so than Schumacher who is heralded for far more aggressive actions. Meanwhile Lewis thinks he's bigger than the sport and has now diversified into solving the worlds problems.. 

Max' talent and ruthlessness when attacking and defending is the only way he has had a chance in this championship against a crazily dominant car and seven time champion. The championship would be over races ago if he hadn't got his elbows out.. 

Sadly like everything else in life, people are a little bit sensitive these days.. maybe you'd rather watch another season of dominance akin to watching paint dry?? The favouritism in the media towards English sports personalities and teams is a excessive, in a sport as complex and technical as F1 it controls the narrative and has in my view focused far more on Max' transgressions than Lewis' - ironic that the most dangerous situation was Lewis kamikaze move in Silverstone. 

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## sharrkey (Sep 11, 2017)

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## slim_boy_fat (Jun 23, 2006)

i can't remember a situation in _F_1 before where the Stewards offered to 'negotiate' a penalty as they did with Red Bull in this race. Normally they would hand down their decision and that'd be that.

Also, if Mercedes had told Hamilton sooner that Verstappen was going to cede the position, there was no way he should have collided with the car in front. Hamilton should have overtaken when Max slowed initially - yes, *both* were 'playing' positional games but for Hamilton to say "I didn't understand why he was slowing down" then simply ram him [when he definitely _could_ have gone round him] is inexcusable. Try it at the next set of traffic lights you encounter at red and see what the Police have to say.

Hamilton's immediate post-race reaction, sitting with his head in his hands, tucked out of sight was at odds with his usual ebullient self after a win.

Strong racing imo, but to be honest I'm giving up on _F_1 and will concentrate on BTCC in future.


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## atbalfour (Aug 11, 2019)

slim_boy_fat said:


> i can't remember a situation in _F_1 before where the Stewards offered to 'negotiate' a penalty as they did with Red Bull in this race. Normally they would hand down their decision and that'd be that.
> 
> Also, if Mercedes had told Hamilton sooner that Verstappen was going to cede the position, there was no way he should have collided with the car in front. Hamilton should have overtaken when Max slowed initially - yes, *both* were 'playing' positional games but for Hamilton to say "I didn't understand why he was slowing down" then simply ram him [when he definitely _could_ have gone round him] is inexcusable. Try it at the next set of traffic lights you encounter at red and see what the Police have to say.
> 
> ...


Agree. Anyone with an open mind and capable of recalling all the various incidents will realise that neither is entirely blameless. Max has of course been the aggressor more often than not, but he's the underdog clinging on to what in the hybrid era has been the impossible.. he's absolutely entitled to make it a scrap and unlike previous non contests it's great TV so stop the complaining and enjoy a very rare battle before even more artificial rules are introduced.

It so happens that one of them is a diva off the track, one's not. If you want clean racing it's probably not a great idea to goad him and refer to the race 'intelligence' gap every second interview. I am excited to see Lewis with a fast, competitive team mate for the first time since Rosberg... That didn't end too well. Again Rosberg painted as the bad guy in the media but neither entirely blameless.

I don't think either have the personality of other drivers on the grid but I for one prefer fearless, aggressive underdog to predicable amateur dramatics / political facade. Everyone will have different views 

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## Andy from Sandy (May 6, 2011)

> he wins the championship on races won


He was gifted the win at non event that was Spa.



> i can't remember a situation in F1 before where the Stewards offered to 'negotiate' a penalty as they did with Red Bull in this race.


When Max took the lead through going off track Masi suggested the position be given back. If the suggestion is not followed it would be referred to the stewards. Unfortunately just as that suggestion was given there was a red flag.

Masi then suggested to RBR the starting grid position and if RBR were not happy then that would be referred to the stewards.

So at that point in time the stewards didn't do anything.


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## SteveW (Feb 21, 2006)

I'm in two minds about Max now. I really wanted him to win this year, even though I'd hate to see Christian Horner's smug face if that happened.

I don't have an allegiance to either driver really, I've been a Williams supporter for the whole time I've followed F1 since the early 80s and probably always will be. So I cheer for whoever is driving for them, for what it's worth these days :lol:

After this last race, I honestly think I'll be happier if Lewis wins the WDC. Max was driving far too aggressively on Sunday in my opinion.

Another thing to take from the last race if it wasn't apparent before - Michael Masi is not in the same league as Charlie Whiting was


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## jenks (Apr 20, 2009)

Verstappen is a liability. 
Gives the place back but immediately takes it back under braking. Hamilton a few years ago at Spa did similar to kimi and got penalised. 
First time in F1 history a driver has tried to give a place back by braking, they ALWAYS just ease off the accelerator, resulting in a crash. Result in 10 sec penalty which changed nothing.
Hamilton get warned about driving standards for" braking late and running wide", what the hell has Max been doing all season with nothing from the stewards. 

And yet people still claim the FIA is biased towards Merc.


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## shycho (Sep 7, 2010)

jenks said:


> Verstappen is a liability.
> Gives the place back but immediately takes it back under braking. Hamilton a few years ago at Spa did similar to kimi and got penalised.
> First time in F1 history a driver has tried to give a place back by braking, they ALWAYS just ease off the accelerator, resulting in a crash. Result in 10 sec penalty which changed nothing.
> Hamilton get warned about driving standards for" braking late and running wide", what the hell has Max been doing all season with nothing from the stewards.
> ...


You only have to look at any overtake attempt into T1 last weekend.

19 Drivers managed to successfully navigate that turn two abreast, only one drive drove white to white line (and beyond) consistently like he has done his entire career.

A cars width isn't a thing to Verstappen despite him demanding space from Hamilton in Monza.
An utter clown in an over powered car.


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## atbalfour (Aug 11, 2019)

shycho said:


> You only have to look at any overtake attempt into T1 last weekend.
> 
> 19 Drivers managed to successfully navigate that turn two abreast, only one drive drove white to white line (and beyond) consistently like he has done his entire career.
> 
> ...


Under powered car more like..

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## VTR_Craig (Dec 29, 2007)

shycho said:


> You only have to look at any overtake attempt into T1 last weekend.
> 
> 19 Drivers managed to successfully navigate that turn two abreast, only one drive drove white to white line (and beyond) consistently like he has done his entire career.
> 
> ...


I am a max fan (I like the under dog) so my opinion is biased but based on your comment lewis managed to overtake 25 cars the other week over the sprint race and grand prix without crashing into the back of them yet when max moves over and lifts, lewis struggled with it (i am aware of some braking at the very last moment but lewis should have been 4/5 car lengths ahead if he took the racing line)

Max is fighting with inferior equipment. Is it cheating that lewis has the faster car and has for the past 4/5/6 seasons?

I don't like the dirty tactics and max is mostly to blame but isn't it the F1 equivalent of tugging on the other players shirt or diving in the box which we see every football match?

Not starting an argument, just my opinion. Nobody remembers second place though!


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## Alfie7777 (Jul 25, 2018)

In the words of Ayrton Senna 
If you see a gap and don't go for it ,you are no longer a racing driver


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## Darlofan (Nov 24, 2010)

VTR_Craig said:


> I am a max fan (I like the under dog) so my opinion is biased but based on your comment lewis managed to overtake 25 cars the other week over the sprint race and grand prix without crashing into the back of them yet when max moves over and lifts, lewis struggled with it (i am aware of some braking at the very last moment but lewis should have been 4/5 car lengths ahead if he took the racing line)
> 
> Max is fighting with inferior equipment. Is it cheating that lewis has the faster car and has for the past 4/5/6 seasons?
> 
> ...


Max braked and was in the center of the track. No other driver told to give up a place has ever braked to do it. They normally lift off before a corner.

Obviously now as we are all aware the DRS line was coming up towards the end of that straight. Clearly both drivers were aware of that and knew whoever passed it 2nd would have DRS and an advantage. Suppose it's one of those flukes that is never a problem until it happens then needs the rule looking at in case it happens in the future.


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## Andy from Sandy (May 6, 2011)

RBR did start with the better car. There was a bit of back and forth. The result at Mexico was huge. At that point RBR must have thought they were on their way. At the end of June I thought it was their championship to lose.

Then the tables turned at Brazil and the language from RBR and Max changed. They had the wind knocked out of them and they stopped looking like a winning team.

The last interview from Horner was someone who has lost a fair bit of confidence.


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## Darlofan (Nov 24, 2010)

Andy from Sandy said:


> RBR did start with the better car. There was a bit of back and forth. The result at Mexico was huge. At that point RBR must have thought they were on their way. At the end of June I thought it was their championship to lose.
> 
> Then the tables turned at Brazil and the language from RBR and Max changed. They had the wind knocked out of them and they stopped looking like a winning team.
> 
> The last interview from Horner was someone who has lost a fair bit of confidence.


Couldn't agree more, I would have stuck money on Max being world champ this year earlier in the season. Not sure what Mercedes have done to catch up or what's gone wrong for Red Bull. Max must be worried looking at recent form.


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## Andy from Sandy (May 6, 2011)

What we don't know is how the cost cap has affected the teams. Money used to be no object when a problem cropped up.
It was a huge cost for both teams with the Bottas Russel crash and the Silverstone crash.
Then there was the rear wing changes.
There have been other incidents that all adds up and takes away from development effort coupled with the reduction in actual development time allowed and further exacerbated with teams having to reduce staff numbers.


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## atbalfour (Aug 11, 2019)

Looking like a foregone conclusion already. Unless there's another Merc strategy balls up, or Red Bull pull a blinder with a 2 stop - the Merc is superior car. 

You can be pretty confident given Perez quali performances this year that it'll be two Mercs on one Red Bull. If Max does the opposite to Lewis (maybe by risking the soft tyre in Q2), they'll cover it with Valterri.

As useless as he is at defending and overtaking similarly paced cars, he's quick over a lap and if it's him and Lewis at front it's game over for Max IMO. 

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## nbray67 (Mar 22, 2012)

The stewards just wanted them both on the same points for the last race on Sunday.

Same points and all to play for = £££££££££££££££££'s in worldwide viewing figs/advertising rights etc....

Great finish to what has become a Merc/LH possession for a few years now.
I was willing MV to win the Championship this year but his driving, at times, has been borderline dangerous.

On a side note, my lad works in Abu Dhabi and is there for the whole weekend, lucky s0d!!


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## slim_boy_fat (Jun 23, 2006)

Lewis Hamilton has history, see this interview when he was roughly Verstappen's age......


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## Alfie7777 (Jul 25, 2018)

Darlofan said:


> Max braked and was in the center of the track. No other driver told to give up a place has ever braked to do it. They normally lift off before a corner.
> 
> Obviously now as we are all aware the DRS line was coming up towards the end of that straight. Clearly both drivers were aware of that and knew whoever passed it 2nd would have DRS and an advantage. Suppose it's one of those flukes that is never a problem until it happens then needs the rule looking at in case it happens in the future.


Didn't d coultard brake for Schumacher &#55358;&#56596; or was that just a figment of his own imagination ?
Lewis was given the opportunity to pass max before he (max ) returned to anything resembling the racing line
In regards to the f1 results being decided of the track I personally would &#55357;&#56393; the finger at what is considered politics and what 
drivers now do prior to the parade lap &#55358;&#56596;


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

What a mess to end the season. 

There is more comments that they are expecting the result to be overturned, but how can they do that?

I think what happened was very unfair on Lewis. Mercedes were left in an impossible situation. They couldn't pit and lose track position. 

To allow some cars to un lap themselves, but not others just to restart the race quickly doesn't look right. That's after saying the cars wouldn't be allowed to pass. 

Equally Max will argue if the backmarkers moved out of the way he still might have won the race. To take it off him because the race director didn't follow the rules also wouldn't be right. 

What a mess.


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## atbalfour (Aug 11, 2019)

What was it that Toto said a couple of races ago, we want this to be won on track, and not in the courts... as he marches a barrister into see the stewards and race director. Utter hypocrite. Don't forget the shocking comments trying to claim that incident didn't justify a safety car, which it clearly did. 

If this is overturned it will undermine the entire sport, every decision. It would be bad for the sport and show that one of the world's largest organisations can prevail with protests. 

Do referees get it wrong in other sports, absolutely! They get retrospectively taken out of the firing line which is exactly what should happen to Masi, as he's not respected and rightly perceived as a bumbling idiot (even before this race). The result is never changed.. This is a consequence of the FIAs over regulation.. It's not RBRs fault. 

Over the course of the championship Max categorically deserved the win - he got a huge slice of luck today but has had so much misfortune with Baku, Silverstone and Hungary (and the knock on engine penalty for Sochi).

They've won the lucrative constructors, for heavens sake leave it be! 

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## The happy goat (Jun 26, 2019)

Kerr said:


> What a mess to end the season.
> 
> There is more comments that they are expecting the result to be overturned, but how can they do that?
> 
> ...


Yes a total c0ckup, good luck sorting that one out Micheal


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## Darlofan (Nov 24, 2010)

Absolute, total mess by Michael Masi, he should resign immediately. Not just for today but the whole season.
Gutted for Lewis but honestly think the best thing he could do now is put out a statement saying he doesn't want to be World Champion in that situation and we'll done to Max.


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## Mikesphotaes (Jul 24, 2016)

Disgraceful decisions!


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## TonyHill (Jul 28, 2015)

Mess or not, I'm very pleased with the end result. We'll done Max :thumb:


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## Darlofan (Nov 24, 2010)

The safety car has always been an issue. Cars closing gaps, getting a free pit stop etc. No driver should benefit because of a safety car, why they don't just have a speed limit like the pit lane I don't understand. That way gaps stay the same and no driver gains an advantage.


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## slim_boy_fat (Jun 23, 2006)

Darlofan said:


> The safety car has always been an issue. Cars closing gaps, getting a free pit stop etc. No driver should benefit because of a safety car, why they don't just have a speed limit like the pit lane I don't understand. That way gaps stay the same and no driver gains an advantage.


Razor sharp debris on the track? What if a driver sustained a high speed blow out as a result of running over it?


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## atbalfour (Aug 11, 2019)

Agree re. Masi.. we all make mistakes, he's just made one under massive public scrutiny.. poor fella needs to be put out of his misery.

Extremely harsh on the day for Lewis who got all but one corner right today.. Even his ability to fight Max on that last lap was impressive.. Being such a good sport unlike his embarrassing team principal will earn him many many more fans.

That said, the right man won over the course of the championship and its good to see someone other than Mercedes win for a change. If that was overturned it would have been horrific for the sport and set the most dangerous precedent.

P.s. Someone should teach Toto and team to lose with grace... you can tell he's used to winning can't you. 

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## Darlofan (Nov 24, 2010)

slim_boy_fat said:


> Razor sharp debris on the track? What if a driver sustained a high speed blow out as a result of running over it?


But they're following a safety car at a speed anyway, so that risk exists. If safety car speed is OK then limit it to that. Virtual safety car is almost there does it but has its flaws as it's a %reduction in speed so depending on where a car is on track an advantage can be gained.


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## Mac- (Apr 9, 2019)

Hamilton had two clear opportunities to pit and change tyres, it was bad race management by Mercedes not to call him in. Verstappen had better race tactics (most of the season to be fair), stopped for new rubber and it paid off as soon as they hit the first corners after the safety car. I must admit I'm not Lewis' biggest fan but he handled the aftermath much better than Toto Wolff and his cronies.


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## Nick-ST (Mar 4, 2013)

atbalfour said:


> What was it that Toto said a couple of races ago, we want this to be won on track, and not in the courts... as he marches a barrister into see the stewards and race director. Utter hypocrite. Don't forget the shocking comments trying to claim that incident didn't justify a safety car, which it clearly did.
> 
> If this is overturned it will undermine the entire sport, every decision. It would be bad for the sport and show that one of the world's largest organisations can prevail with protests.
> 
> ...


Put absolutely perfectly!!!


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## The happy goat (Jun 26, 2019)

I’m a Mclaren fan but I feel for Lewis thats not a way to lose a race, the race was run Max wasn’t even in contention. If Masi thought ‘let them race’ he should have done so leaving everyone in their positions not clearing the way for Max.

Thats racing winners and losers but Masi and Co.need to get their sh!t together to stop a repeat of this.


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## BrummyPete (Jun 10, 2010)

Nice win for max, think toto is gonna get his **** kicked for not pitting Hamilton earlier on, did you hear Hamiltons commentary when he asked if Max was being him during the safety car and he mentioned he has a fresh set of tyres, on the last lap you can see Hamilton taking corners shoddily, shame as its not a great way to lose a race but Mercedes have to be held accountable


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## Mac- (Apr 9, 2019)

I was surprised at how shaky Hamilton sounded when questioning Verstappen having fresh rubber on.


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## atbalfour (Aug 11, 2019)

While red bull played all the right strategy cards, they were relatively obvious ones as the chaser and with a huge gap behind.

Not sure Merc ever had a window to pit Lewis without losing the all important track position. That's often the disadvantage being at the front.

They were utterly shafted by the race situation, but as has been commented elsewhere they've benefited from (and won championships partly due to) Safety Cars in the past. Lewis wasn't complaining in Imola was he...

It's been a long season, luck was with Max today but Lewis has had plenty himself should anyone care to look.

I say this as someone sad enough to have recently rewatched highlights of all 2021 GPs 

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## grunty-motor (Aug 11, 2016)

I have not watched a full F1 race for about 7 or 8years. Just lost interest in it. Also, I detest Hamilton. I went to the Abu Dhabi race in 2013...fantastic circuit.

Wife, daughter(18) and son(13) all watched it - says something about the build up to this finale.

Watching it reconfirmed my views of a boring sport but for a few (random and inconsistent) incidents. I watched in the hope to see Verstappen win. I came away feeling that Hamilton was robbed. The way he conducted himself in the press conference/interviews has made me re-consider what i think about him.


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## atbalfour (Aug 11, 2019)

grunty-motor said:


> I came away feeling that Hamilton was robbed. The way he conducted himself in the press conference/interviews has made me re-consider what i think about him.


This wasn't his first rodeo or his first 'unjust' defeat he's clever in front of the media and always saying the right things. Starts every interview sucking up to the crowd etc. Never mind the woke nonsense, it's this facade that drives me nuts.. Only the naive would fall for this.

Maybe I'm the only cynic, I don't get how more people don't see right through him. Just wait for the release of him whinging over team radio, interviews after the CAS appeal fails and wait for the jibes about the legitimacy of Max' championship that will start next year. He's a fake, whiney brat and I'll never like him but hats off for keeping his composure today, that can't have been easy..

Edit : He's come quite far from this 





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## Nick-ST (Mar 4, 2013)

atbalfour said:


> While red bull played all the right strategy cards, they were relatively obvious ones as the chaser and with a huge gap behind.
> 
> Not sure Merc ever had a window to pit Lewis without losing the all important track position. That's often the disadvantage being at the front.
> 
> ...


So true! Lewis has had the rub of the green almost all season. The first time Max has actually had a stroke of luck and Wolf and co go running to the FIA. Stupid


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## grunty-motor (Aug 11, 2016)

atbalfour said:


> This wasn't his first rodeo or his first 'unjust' defeat he's clever in front of the media and always saying the right things. Starts every interview sucking up to the crowd etc. Never mind the woke nonsense, it's this facade that drives me nuts.. *Only the naive would fall for this.*
> 
> Maybe I'm the only cynic, I don't get how more people don't see right through him. Just wait for the release of him whinging over team radio, interviews after the CAS appeal fails and wait for the jibes about the legitimacy of Max' championship that will start next year. *He's a fake, whiney brat and I'll never like him * but hats off for keeping his composure today, that can't have been easy..
> 
> ...


OUCH - i have feelings you know!!!

Well, that is exactly what my impression of him was/is. But, dont get me wrong, i wont be running out buying a T-Shirt!


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## atbalfour (Aug 11, 2019)

grunty-motor said:


> OUCH - i have feelings you know!!!
> 
> Well, that is exactly what my impression of him was/is. But, dont get me wrong, i wont be running out buying a T-Shirt!


Oh I didn't mean to direct that specifically at you.. lots of people buy into it and like him. He's incredibly popular.. this is just my personal opinion on how genuine he is (or isn't) 

For me, you see someone's true colours when they're under pressure. He's not been tested in the recent past, so this year there have been things he's said and done which directly contradict the facade he's attempted to pull this year..

Some would argue that Max is pretty arrogant, selfish, aggressive, doesn't have a great deal of personality etc.. I actually don't disagree with any of that, being fake is just a personal gripe of mine.

Lewis is the very definition of fake in my opinion.

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## Alfie7777 (Jul 25, 2018)

The Lewis fans are out playing the whipped spaniel scenario and blaming the race directors decision &#55357;&#56900; 
It would appear that the race director has only made a poor decision in this race &#55357;&#56847;&#55358;&#56611;&#55358;&#56611;&#55358;&#56611;&#55358;&#56611;


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## PaulAT (Jun 29, 2021)

atbalfour said:


> While red bull played all the right strategy cards, they were relatively obvious ones as the chaser and with a huge gap behind.
> 
> Not sure Merc ever had a window to pit Lewis without losing the all important track position. That's often the disadvantage being at the front.
> 
> ...


Lewis has had one or two slices of luck this season. Imola is one that springs to mind; the red flag saved him when he went off the road and damaged his car. I also believe his penalty at silverstone wasn't severe enough; take your rival out and still win…that didn't seem fair.

I agree the way the race was ended was controversial but at the end of the day, Michael Masi and is the clerk of the course. Unfortunately I can already see people saying Max's win is tainted.

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## grunty-motor (Aug 11, 2016)

atbalfour said:


> Oh I didn't mean to direct that specifically at you.. lots of people buy into it and like him. He's incredibly popular.. this is just my personal opinion on how genuine he is (or isn't)
> 
> Some would argue that Max is pretty arrogant, selfish, *aggressive*, doesn't have a great deal of personality etc.. I actually don't disagree with any of that, being fake is just a personal gripe of mine.


I think our views of him are pretty similar. This year did bring the championship into the sight of many who didnt normally watch it.

My daughter looked up Jos Verstappen.....bit of a temper issue running in that family:lol:


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## Andy from Sandy (May 6, 2011)

Reading the decision to not allow the MB protest the FIA have a very perverse sporting regulations. They claim that because they broke one rule but adhered to another it means everything is alright!


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## Darlofan (Nov 24, 2010)

Alfie7777 said:


> The Lewis fans are out playing the whipped spaniel scenario and blaming the race directors decision ��
> It would appear that the race director has only made a poor decision in this race ����������


You're right, there have been many suspicious decisions over the season. Full safety car to bunch cars back up rather than a virtual safety car is the one that annoys me. But decisions about grid place/time penalties etc are usually in the rules. However, I fail to see how the FIA can explain yesterdays decision to only let a few lapped cars through and then not wait until those lapped cars have made it round the track to the tail end like supposed to.

Regardless of who you're a fan of anybody can see they manipulated the result. Lewis had led without any problems and was well ahead until the Latifi crash. Finishing under the safety car would not have been the greatest end to the season but nobody would have argued that decision as that's what would have happened in every other race this year.

Gutted for Hamilton but actually feel worse for Verstappen. He knows he has just won it unfairly and that's all that will be spoken about in the future. For me now, I'd like to see Hamilton win the next World championship to get the record then Max win the year after.


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## SteveW (Feb 21, 2006)

Well that was a fun end to the season wasn't it? :lol:

I'll start this post by stating that I really didn't care who won, my support has always been with Williams ever since I started following F1 back in the early 80s - so "my" drivers have been nowhere in recent years......

It looks to me like Liberty Media managed to orchestrate the perfect finish to the season with that safety car debacle.

I can fully understand Hamilton feeling that the championship was stolen from him today. But then again, he should have given the place back on the first lap as far as I'm concerned and it could have been a different race after that, we'll never know.

F1 since it's been owned by Liberty, is slowly becoming more like WWE as each year passes and it's a great shame.


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

SteveW said:


> I can fully understand Hamilton feeling that the championship was stolen from him today. But then again, he should have given the place back on the first lap as far as I'm concerned and it could have been a different race after that, we'll never know.


That was too aggressive by Verstappen. It wasn't a genuine overtake. He went in far too fast and forced Hamilton off the track to avoid contact.

Hamilton did gain about an extra second with the shortcut, but I don't think letting Verstappen past would have been fair.


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## percymon (Jun 27, 2007)

Biggest failing - allowing the teams to negotiate with the race directors. As Eddie Jordan said this morning, in Charlie Whitings day he'd have told them to shut up and go away, and then give his decision.


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## SteveW (Feb 21, 2006)

Kerr said:


> That was too aggressive by Verstappen. It wasn't a genuine overtake. He went in far too fast and forced Hamilton off the track to avoid contact.
> 
> Hamilton did gain about an extra second with the shortcut, but I don't think letting Verstappen past would have been fair.


I think we could debate this until the cows come home so probably shouldn't :lol:

But, for what it's worth I think that it was a genuine overtake, Verstappen didn't leave the confines of the track. It was just hard, tough racing really. Unlike Verstappen last week In Saudi - his behaviour that weekend was absolutely ridiculous.

One thing I will mention - Toto Wolff asking Masi to warn Red Bull about Checo's driving??? There was nothing wrong with that whatsoever. Checo drove brilliantly to hold up Lewis, didn't do anything wrong. I'm glad at least that Masi didn't do as Toto asked/demanded for that one!


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## Darlofan (Nov 24, 2010)

Kerr said:


> That was too aggressive by Verstappen. It wasn't a genuine overtake. He went in far too fast and forced Hamilton off the track to avoid contact.
> 
> Hamilton did gain about an extra second with the shortcut, but I don't think letting Verstappen past would have been fair.


Far too aggressive, caused by the advantage Max had of knowing if neither him or Lewis finished he won on number of races won. Yes you could argue he could have damaged his own car and not Lewis's so badly but watching the way he was trying to overtake yesterday it was a risk he was willing to take. Lewis had to drive defensively whenever Max was close. If Lewis hadn't cut that corner on lap1 he'd have been out. He was making the corner quite nicely until Max started coming across.


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## Richiesips (May 29, 2010)

Could it be possible that Netflix leant on Masi throughout the season (Imagine being a fan at Spa this year) to create unjustified drama for a TV program? Verstappen, Hamilton & racing fans all lost yesterday. The biggest winner was Netflix.


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## The Cueball (Feb 8, 2007)

Mac- said:


> Hamilton had two clear opportunities to pit and change tyres, it was bad race management by Mercedes not to call him in..


You never give up track position in those situations... Merc made the right call.

Had they known that race Direction was going to throw the rule book out the window.. maybe they would have changed their mind though...hindsight and all that jazz..

Red Bull had nothing to lose, so took the chance on changing tyres.... Mr Geri Spice had basically admitted defeat and waiting on "the racing gods" to help...

Rules were broken....twice it would seem..

FIA has admitted that the first one 'doesn't really matter' though.. so why have the rule? of course it matters...

The 2nd one still 'feels' wrong...

I've no dog in the fight, I think F1 is boring, and now it looks shambolic at best, and corrupt at worst..

:thumb:


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## Mikesphotaes (Jul 24, 2016)

I won't watch another F1 race again!


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## The happy goat (Jun 26, 2019)

A hollow victory for Max and he knows it! The outcome of that race was the Mercedes was the faster car and was cruising to victory and a 8th world championship! If the roles were reversed I would be saying the exact same thing btw.

The rules are there to be adhered to “rules is rules” and it shouldn’t be down to one person or persons to interfere and adjust the rules, it should have played out like every other race thats had a safety car a few laps from the end.

Yes it would have been boring but thats motorsport we wouldn’t be here discussing any of this right now.

What’s done is done and Masi cannot reverse his ‘call’ I seriously believe this will damage what’s left of this sport he should resign and leave it to others to untangle this mess.


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## Andy from Sandy (May 6, 2011)

> Hamilton had two clear opportunities to pit and change tyres, it was bad race management by Mercedes not to call him in.


What wasn't shown is the position on track at the time of the safety cars and position relative to other cars that affect the order when leaving the pits.


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## SteveW (Feb 21, 2006)

Well for what it's worth, I've cancelled my Sky F1 subscription this afternoon.

That'll save me £18 a month and give me back 22 weekends next year.

I actually feel quite sad about it all, that F1 has come to this, entertainment over the rules. About the only sport I follow closely and I've done so for the best part of forty years.

I might watch the highlights on Channel 4 next year, if I can be bothered.....


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## The happy goat (Jun 26, 2019)

SteveW said:


> Well for what it's worth, I've cancelled my Sky F1 subscription this afternoon.
> 
> That'll save me £18 a month and give me back 22 weekends next year.
> 
> ...


I feel your pain! Reading online a lot of people are doing the same.


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## SteveW (Feb 21, 2006)

The happy goat said:


> I feel your pain! Reading online a lot of people are doing the same.


I've become somewhat disillusioned with the whole "sport" anyway this year, but the last two races were the final straw really for me.

Still it'll give me more time to clean the cars or ride the bikes, every cloud and all that!


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## andy665 (Nov 1, 2005)

percymon said:


> Biggest failing - allowing the teams to negotiate with the race directors. As Eddie Jordan said this morning, in Charlie Whitings day he'd have told them to shut up and go away, and then give his decision.


This is a major issue that needs to be stamped out

I feel genuinely sorry for both Lewis and Max, they did nothing wrong yesterday, the issue was the Race Director, during the off-season I believe a number of things should happen:

1. The stewards decisions over the course of the year need to be reviewed and where there have been inconsistencies the rules need to be amended to minimise a chance of it happening again

2. Michaels Masi's decision to take more decisions himself rather than deferring to the stewards needs to be stopped

3. Only communication between Race director and team bosses during the race is one way

4. Stewards should be employed on a full-time basis rather than having "guest" stewards which is a crazy situation and an invitation to introduce inconsistencies

5. Endorsements on the Super Licence should be more severe so that there is a realistic chance of a driver having to sit out races if regular rule infringements take place

Two things I found really distasteful:

1.Mercedes flying their barrister out in case they felt there was a reason to make a protest

2. Hamilton complaining about the "dangerous driving" of Perez


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## atbalfour (Aug 11, 2019)

andy665 said:


> This is a major issue that needs to be stamped out
> 
> I feel genuinely sorry for both Lewis and Max, they did nothing wrong yesterday, the issue was the Race Director, during the off-season I believe a number of things should happen:
> 
> ...


Agree with all of this.

Also for the moaners talking about cancelling sky, we'll see you next March.

What nobody seems to be talking about is that full safety cars are great equalisers (I disagree that they should be, the VSC concept is much better). This isn't new, he himself benefitted from them as recently as Imola ffs.. Lewis knew (as confirmed by team radio) that he was f*cked the second Latifi crashed. That safety car was called justifiably, his on track position meant that Mercedes had too much to lose by pitting him.

Regardless of whether Masi followed the rules to the letter, Lewis predicament would have been identical.. whether one, two, ten or fifteen laps earlier. Max proved he only needed a lap.

Although Lewis deserved to win the race, that's racing for you.. He deserved to win it in 2007 too. Many moments like this happen in sport.

Had Masi implemented the rules per the letter of the regs, Lewis would himself have been the benefactor of exceptionally lucky timing.. protected from an attack from behind because of a technicality - try explaining that to new fans.

9 times out of 10, not taking advantage of a 'free' pit stop under a safety car is going to result in a big disadvantage.

Masi should be demoted, he's clearly not up to the job but I do have some sympathy at a human level. The sport needs to look at over regulation generally and whether archaic rules like safety cars effectively resetting previously earnt gaps are fit for purpose in 2021. Can someone explain to my why the concept of the VSC can't be applied here too?

Sent from my LYA-L09 using Tapatalk


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## Richiesips (May 29, 2010)

atbalfour said:


> Agree with all of this.
> 
> Also for the moaners talking about cancelling sky, we'll see you next March.
> 
> ...


Out of interest, do you think the race would have ended under the safety car if Hamilton would have pitted and rejoined the track in second?


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## Darlofan (Nov 24, 2010)

atbalfour said:


> Agree with all of this.
> 
> Also for the moaners talking about cancelling sky, we'll see you next March.
> 
> ...


I said the same earlier about the safety car. Nobody should be able to benefit from a safety car coming out. They have speed limits in pit lane so just have it when there's an accident. Lewis being the leader was in an impossible situation with safety car out. It's the same with fastest lap point, seen quite a few times the 2nd placed driver having time to come in for fresh tyres to get fastest lap.

Another thing to sort is cranes/tele handler things to move crashed/stopped cars. As soon as Latifi crashed comments were made about no crane near, all the money in the sport could provide for one at regular intervals. It should not take 4laps to shift a car.


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## sharrkey (Sep 11, 2017)

SteveW said:


> Well for what it's worth, I've cancelled my Sky F1 subscription this afternoon.
> 
> That'll save me £18 a month and give me back 22 weekends next year.
> 
> ...


Damn you could have held off cancelling in the new year, bang goes our pay rise with all these cancellations 

Plz plz reinstate it as I've more detailing goodies to buy in 2022

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## Itstony (Jan 19, 2018)

The expectation and hope of a great last race was absolutely ruined by incompetence.
Cannot even remember missing a F1 race and this one really had me baffled and confused what was happening in the end. Only later did I realise it wasn't only me, nobody who should didn't.
The FIA stewards have a full time Lawyer present and at hand to interpret the rules during a race. Right there imho shows just how unnecessarily complicated and confusing the rules are. 
There have been way too many changes to the rules resulting in additions overruling the previous rule, not modifying or replacing the predecessor. So what's that all about? Absolutely barmy.

For me there were no winners Sunday, but everyone lost. Neither driver LH or MV were, majority of the spectators, viewers etc.etc.
They need to tear up the rule book and rewrite it so it's up to date with the game. This situation should never have happened. Let's hope it is never repeated.


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## atbalfour (Aug 11, 2019)

Richiesips said:


> Out of interest, do you think the race would have ended under the safety car if Hamilton would have pitted and rejoined the track in second?


I don't believe it was a deliberately fixed result if that's what you are asking, I think it was obvious to everyone that Masi thought finishing the race with some racing was more important than the letter of the regulations (which even he has applied differently in the past, eg. Eifel in 2020).

So if the top 2 had both pit, or had only Lewis pit, I think his intent would have been the same, ironically those 5 cars between Max and Lewis wouldn't have been a factor, if I can recall track positions correctly.

Sent from my LYA-L09 using Tapatalk


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## Itstony (Jan 19, 2018)

I like this comment, but it does have valid arguments.
Anything that removes an unfair advantage, for the better has to be a good thing. Had this been in place, the situation would have been an acceptable result by all.

*I said the same earlier about the safety car. Nobody should be able to benefit from a safety car coming out. They have speed limits in pit lane so just have it when there's an accident. Lewis being the leader was in an impossible situation with safety car out. It's the same with fastest lap point, seen quite a few times the 2nd placed driver having time to come in for fresh tyres to get fastest lap. *


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## SteveW (Feb 21, 2006)

sharrkey said:


> Damn you could have held off cancelling in the new year, bang goes our pay rise with all these cancellations
> 
> Plz plz reinstate it as I've more detailing goodies to buy in 2022
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Well technically I won't be cancelling until the middle of January, because I have to go through the 30-day cooling off period to give me chance to change my mind, apparently 

Dunno if that helps you out? :lol:


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## sharrkey (Sep 11, 2017)

SteveW said:


> Well technically I won't be cancelling until the middle of January, because I have to go through the 30-day cooling off period to give me chance to change my mind, apparently
> 
> Dunno if that helps you out? :lol:


Na the damage is done lol

But yeh in a serious note 30days notice is correct information 

But I suspect you will be back start of season 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## SteveW (Feb 21, 2006)

sharrkey said:


> Na the damage is done lol
> 
> But yeh in a serious note 30days notice is correct information
> 
> ...


I'm not so sure. I've been thinking about it all season given the way the rules have been changed and the stewarding has become so inconsistent, but decided to see the season out.

I will no doubt still watch the C4 highlights, at least for the start of the season to see if anything has changed and to see what the new regs bring to the "show", and I'll see if I really miss watching it live enough to upgrade.

To be honest, the way I feel right now I'm actually quite looking forward to doing other stuff rather than sitting in front of the TV on a Saturday/Sunday afternoon


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## The happy goat (Jun 26, 2019)

SteveW said:


> I'm not so sure. I've been thinking about it all season given the way the rules have been changed and the stewarding has become so inconsistent, but decided to see the season out.
> 
> I will no doubt still watch the C4 highlights, at least for the start of the season to see if anything has changed and to see what the new regs bring to the "show", and I'll see if I really miss watching it live enough to upgrade.
> 
> To be honest, the way I feel right now I'm actually quite looking forward to doing other stuff rather than sitting in front of the TV on a Saturday/Sunday afternoon


I know what you mean this last race has really turned me off F1! I've been a avid watcher since 88 and this season was shaping up quite nicely (even with all of its controversy) to have some muppet make his own rules up at the end of the race well…….

I use NOW TV so i can dip in and out when i feel like it but at the moment I'm unsure if i will follow next year unless Masi is removed.


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## GleemSpray (Jan 26, 2014)

The happy goat said:


> I know what you mean this last race has really turned me off F1! I've been a avid watcher since 88 and this season was shaping up quite nicely (even with all of its controversy) to have some muppet make his own rules up at the end of the race well…….
> 
> I use NOW TV so i can dip in and out when i feel like it but at the moment I'm unsure if i will follow next year unless Masi is removed.


I watched F1 since the late 60`s with my dad and, to me, the political rot started to set in during the mid 80's when Beneton got serious and employed Schumacher and Briatore.

Once you start down the road of having solicitors question the officials interpretation of the rules and regulations, there is no turning back.

Anyone remember the sad saga of the wooden planks under the cars?


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## AndyN01 (Feb 16, 2016)

GleemSpray said:


> .....
> 
> Anyone remember the sad saga of the wooden planks under the cars?


Yes .

Haven't watched F1 "properly" for decades despite having racked up hundreds of days marshalling in the early '80's including F1, Bike GP, Karts, World Endurance, Historic, etc. etc.

Bring back racing on the track, not in the courtroom and, as in my avatar, keep it simple.

Andy.


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## Lyam (Aug 2, 2013)

The words from actual f1 drivers say everything

Danni ric "I'm glad I wasn't a part of that it seemed pretty ****ed up"

Seb vettel "did I win the overtake thing or was that snatched away aswell"?

Fernando Alonso "I think more than any other year if you could split the trophy in two, this was the year to do it. Because both of them were outstanding."

Lando norris "to say that cars won't be allowed to unlap and that may have influenced Mercedes not to pit then say they can unlap but only some isn't right"


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## Coops (Apr 26, 2008)

I've heard there is talk that senior MB management have asked Toto et al to stop the legal appeal and drop it.

I wonder how much their complaining is impacting the brand image of MB?


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## The happy goat (Jun 26, 2019)

Coops said:


> I've heard there is talk that senior MB management have asked Toto et al to stop the legal appeal and drop it.
> 
> I wonder how much their complaining is impacting the brand image of MB?


Not as much as F1/FIA.

Max was given the win and that looks really bad, was it for entertainment? Or is there something else………


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## weedougall78 (Nov 4, 2017)

Just make Vince McMahon the new race director and be done with it, at least the paying public will know what they are getting.


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## Alfie7777 (Jul 25, 2018)

Happy how was max given the win ,he was in 2nd place behind Lewis and the pack was bunched up when the safety car was deployed, the positions weren't changed after the safety car came back in, 
Mercedes choose to leave Lewis out even after discussing any possible future safety car deployment 
Toto even made attempts at telling masi when a safety car should or should not be used
Mercedes screwed up by not bringing Lewis in as soon as fatifi hit the wall and decided to argue the use of the safety car ,yet another example of why team principals should not be allowed access to decision makers via radio communication while a race is live


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## The happy goat (Jun 26, 2019)

If you’re a Max fan then you will be happy with the result if the table were turned i wonder if everyone would be happy then? It was a hard fought season which went down to the last race. Max or should I say the red bull wasn't fast enough thats the truth, the Mercedes dominated the race.

Both drivers deserved the win.

I total agree with you about the team principals not contacting the race director I recall Christian making contact first and maybe influencing the race outcome?! If it was a clear cut case we wouldn’t be debating this, the rule weren’t adhered to and the redbull was given the win.

Personally I think it has been very bad for the sport.


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## Coops (Apr 26, 2008)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/59681314

MB will not appeal.


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## Itstony (Jan 19, 2018)

A lot of good comments, good to try and see others views. Great believe we can all be bias toward what we wanted.
Stepping back, for me this topic was never about the winning of the race, it was more about how it was spoilt. Spoilt by the rules and regs that are clearly screwed up. Don't trust me, read-em.
It was good to hear MV admit it was not the way to win. Going forward I do hope they address the issues and prevent it reoccurring.

Two I do believe would help. 
1. Change the fastest lap going to drivers way down the field. No real benefit in the grand scheme of things.
2. Should this same situation as per that last race come about, just keep all drivers in the same position and just run that last lap out. The distance of lead had been established on all facets, so no tyre changes as it happened this time. MV was rewarded by having the choice being way behind. That don't sit well.

Whatever personal views are, it was a race LH had all-but-won and he never made a mistake, but punished. That just seems wrong. Brit's by nature are patriotic, but better than that, we do love fair. Convinced this wasn't.


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## The happy goat (Jun 26, 2019)

Itstony said:


> A lot of good comments, good to try and see others views. Great believe we can all be bias toward what we wanted.
> Stepping back, for me this topic was never about the winning of the race, it was more about how it was spoilt. Spoilt by the rules and regs that are clearly screwed up. Don't trust me, read-em.
> It was good to hear MV admit it was not the way to win. Going forward I do hope they address the issues and prevent it reoccurring.
> 
> ...


For me it spoilt the race and the end of season regardless of who won, if it was meant to finish under a safety car then so be it stick to the rules no one can complain then.

I'm laughing at the new chap who has come in to replace todd because Lewis didn't attend the end of season gala here's his quote,

'Hamilton and Mercedes team principal Toto Wolff did not attend in protest at the handling of the Abu Dhabi Grand Prix last Sunday.

Formula 1 rules dictate that the top three drivers in the championship must attend.

"If there is any breach, there is no forgiveness in this," Ben Sulayem said.

Asked to clarify whether he was saying Hamilton would be penalised for not attending the gala, he said: "Forgiveness is always there. But rules are rules.'

Rules are rules……..hmmmm good luck with that!

And as for the poisoned dwarf poking his nose in about Lewis and his knighthood well thats another story.


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