# Seeing Defects in a New Magnified Way



## OctaneGuy (Aug 16, 2007)

Thought I'd post some pictures of what I'm now doing during my details. Using a high powered digital microscope, I can analyze paint defects and capture them like never before. Thought you might be interested to see some of the pix from this new tool.

Rock Chip that can't be repaired by buffing!!!









This is a closeup of a carbon fiber wing before polishing









After polishing









So next time a customer comes to me with a scratch and asks "Can this be buffed out???"









I can say no, and show them why..note this photo is of a different black car with a key scratch--I didn't have time to get one of the MINI above--so that's why this one has tons of scratches, swirls, and water marks.


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## A20 LEE (Feb 20, 2007)

Nice, i'm dying to see my polishing under a microscope to see if theres room for improvement.


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## Timmo (Mar 21, 2006)

greta pics! 
nice to see a different angle on it as such!


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## OctaneGuy (Aug 16, 2007)

Thanks!! Here's a few more

More of a creative shot of a tire valve cap.









Insect residue!!









These are all viewed at 50X. I may purchase more powerful lenses up to 400X, but it's a lot of $$$, and I don't have much justification for it other than it would be cooool, lol.


Timmo said:


> greta pics!
> nice to see a different angle on it as such!


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## Doc (Feb 2, 2008)

Holy moly thats incredible!


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## L200 Steve (Oct 25, 2005)

Do you not struggle with light bounce back when looking at metallics under the microscope?

What type of microscope are you using?


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## OctaneGuy (Aug 16, 2007)

Thanks, my goal is to document a variety of common defects to be seen at a magnified scale. I'm hoping this will help educate people about why some defects can be polished out and others can't and or why its important to remove bird poo immediately.

Things like "egged" impacts, bug impacts, scratches, key scratches, bird poo etchings, swirls, etc...

re: light bounce back
Yes, it uses LED's--the CF pix are brighter in the center because of the lighting. There is a special polarized lens that is designed for use on shiny objects that I may explore, but I'm not sure how powerful it is.

I'm using a Proscope HR which is normally used for scientific applications like forensics (crime scene stuff)

Richard



Doc said:


> Holy moly thats incredible!


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## L200 Steve (Oct 25, 2005)

OctaneGuy said:


> Thanks, my goal is to document a variety of common defects to be seen at a magnified scale. I'm hoping this will help educate people about why some defects can be polished out and others can't and or why its important to remove bird poo immediately.
> 
> Things like "egged" impacts, bug impacts, scratches, key scratches, bird poo etchings, swirls, etc...
> 
> ...


Hi Richard.

This is something that we started playing with a couple of years ago.

We started out with a basic 6x and 10x linen testers, which on the right paint came up with some nice results.

We then upgraded to using basic 40x, 60x, 100x microscopes available from educational stores. The aim of our investment in the microscope was to both see the improvement to surface finish that our polishing could achieve, but mainly to illustrate any permanent damage caused through industrial fallout. I think that I gave Brazo off here one of the microscopes that we had, so he too could inspect his work.

We then upgraded to a 50x microscope by a company called elcometer. Its their 121 model. This also give us the opportunity to measure depth of scratches.

With most of the above methods though, we've really suffered with the metallic content of paint. The metallic particles scattering the light back in such a fashion that the defects become invisible.

On solid colours though, the microscope really does show up the fine level of finish that is created through polishing. More interesting though is the industrial fallout damage, where the damage has eaten through the full paint coat. We've also been able to see the 'sheared' effect on industrial fallout after using just a clay bar. The main body of the fallout still embedded in the paint continuing it's etching process through the paint.

A20 LEE - If you want to try our 121 gauge on your paint, it's in my office


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## OctaneGuy (Aug 16, 2007)

Very interesting that you experimented with this as well. I currently have two lenses. A 10X distance lens that I can hold away from the surface and manually focus. I use a flashlight in one hand, and the microscope in the other (with the built in lights off), and can manipulate the light in my hand to get the least reflections into the scope. With the light source coming from the scope, it has more issues on highly reflective surfaces.

The 50X lens only focuses when I put the lens onto the surface, so I'm pretty much limited to using the built in lighting.

I'll post more photos on different paint types as I go along.

What was the highest "useful" power that you found? Since I use optical loupes of 5x,10x,15x--I had initially thought that 50X would be too powerful, but I find that I think a 100x or 150x power might reveal a lot more detail. 400x is probably overkill, but not sure, lol.

Seeing the sheared effect on claybar is fantastic--that is something I wanted to document as well.

Richard



L200 Steve said:


> Hi Richard.
> 
> This is something that we started playing with a couple of years ago.
> 
> ...


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## mouthyman (May 1, 2006)

very cool


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## Affection to Detail (Jul 6, 2006)

Very interesting. Have been looking into the same thing also but can't see how it will help myself day to day. Nice pics though.


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## leistrum (Feb 10, 2007)

I wont be wanting to look at my freshly buggered paint with that! (the body shop have just wreaked their havoc on my paint)


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## L200 Steve (Oct 25, 2005)

Affection to Detail said:


> Very interesting. Have been looking into the same thing also but can't see how it will help myself day to day. Nice pics though.


On the right paint you can see if a scratch has penetrated the clear. With a bit of practice you can actually tell how deep most scratches are, which helps guide you when polishing.


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## matt (Jun 29, 2006)

Ive used Steves Elcometer and all i can say is its awesome! The pure detail it picks out is amazing. I could see how the fallout (i think it was ali oxide wasnt it Steve?) had penetrated the paint on his old L200 and also make out the 'shearing' effect that clay does. Until then i thought clay lifted the pollutant out of the paint but having seen what clay does actually makes sense. Its tools like this that give us a better understanding of the products we use in detailing and how they work. If i was a pro detailer looking for perfection i think the Elcometer could be useful in certain situations. :thumb:


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## CleanYourCar (Jan 23, 2006)

Next time i'm over Steve I'd like a look at that also if thats ok.

Some cracking pictures in the first post.


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## Harley (Oct 19, 2006)

Wow!
Thats better than my home made set up 
here is a couple i took last year. no where near as good as others but i am in the process of upgrading my methods.
If the rain would stop i will take some more later !

nice pics Octane Guy


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## sauntson (Feb 4, 2008)

Wow cool pictures

I guess we should not bother detailing if we are really going to look at it under a microscope. I would be pleased with removing the swirls so dont really want to take that close a look at the paint


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## OctaneGuy (Aug 16, 2007)

Oh that's not true. Looking at your paint from a microscopic level lets you know whether you should or shouldn't not bother trying to correct something that cannot be corrected. And like swirls, if you know how to remove them, even at a microscopic level, they are gone. =)

Richard



sauntson said:


> Wow cool pictures
> 
> I guess we should not bother detailing if we are really going to look at it under a microscope. I would be pleased with removing the swirls so dont really want to take that close a look at the paint


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## sauntson (Feb 4, 2008)

Thank you

You know i had not really thought of that. I guess being a newbie at detailing I have a lot to learn form the learned people on this forum. I take my hat off to each and evry one of you

THANK YOU


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## Affection to Detail (Jul 6, 2006)

L200 Steve said:


> On the right paint you can see if a scratch has penetrated the clear. With a bit of practice you can actually tell how deep most scratches are, which helps guide you when polishing.


Yeah, but at a guess, if its gone through the clear you'll be able to feel it and then it isnt going to polish out. I'm not saying it isnt a good idea, just couldnt see me paying out. It was only 4 or so days ago I was looking at buying one on an order with some other stuff from Hong Kong, just decided against it.

That added to the cost of a decent laptop to use it with!


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## L200 Steve (Oct 25, 2005)

Affection to Detail said:


> Yeah, but at a guess, if its gone through the clear you'll be able to feel it and then it isnt going to polish out. I'm not saying it isnt a good idea, just couldnt see me paying out. It was only 4 or so days ago I was looking at buying one on an order with some other stuff from Hong Kong, just decided against it.
> 
> That added to the cost of a decent laptop to use it with!


We microscoped up a very small scratch on a car that we were working on at the weekend, to have a look to see if it was going to be fully removable. The scratch wasn't deep enough to be felt with a finger nail etc, so thought that it'd be a piece of cake to knock out.

A quick check using the PIG proved to be bit of a shocker though, as we could clearly see the bare base substrate starting to corrode at the base of the scratch. Had I tried to remove the scratch, I'd of stood a good chance of striking though.

The findings of the inspection by microscope showed that touch up with a rust converter followed by filling with colour would be the best long term solution.


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## Brazo (Oct 27, 2005)

Have to say L200 was kind enough to give me one of his microscopes a couple of years back. Very interesting, only really useable on solids, as steve says paint with flake tends to disrupt the view. If I'm being honest though it hasn't found a regular spot in my scratch removal detailing, perhaps because most paintwork nowadays is mettalic.


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## L200 Steve (Oct 25, 2005)

Brazo said:


> Have to say L200 was kind enough to give me one of his microscopes a couple of years back. Very interesting, only really useable on solids, as steve says paint with flake tends to disrupt the view. If I'm being honest though it hasn't found a regular spot in my scratch removal detailing, perhaps because most paintwork nowadays is mettalic.


If you can hang on a day or two till I can get a decent write up done Mark, I think that I have come up with the answer, for sub £50.

Seriously, this will blow your socks off.

I have a feeling that if you are serious in polishing to the 'nth degree, and want to demonstrate the difference that your polishing makes, or do a proper paint inspection that your paying customers will want to view - then this is it.

I think that this will be the next step on from the PTG / Brinkmann / Sun Guns etc, and take our past time to the next level:thumb:


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## Mark J (May 10, 2007)

L200 Steve said:


> If you can hang on a day or two till I can get a decent write up done Mark, I think that I have come up with the answer, for sub £50.
> 
> Seriously, this will blow your socks off.
> 
> ...


You tease, Steve 

Looking forward to this ! :thumb:


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## Wheelie_Clean (Jun 16, 2007)

Oooh, write faster!!!


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## drive 'n' shine (Apr 22, 2006)

L200 Steve said:


> If you can hang on a day or two till I can get a decent write up done Mark, I think that I have come up with the answer, for sub £50.
> 
> Seriously, this will blow your socks off.
> 
> ...


Look forward to reading this :thumb:


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## Phil H (May 14, 2006)

very impressive pictures


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## Phil H (May 14, 2006)

drive 'n' shine said:


> Look forward to reading this :thumb:


me too!


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## Harley (Oct 19, 2006)

I bought one of these as it seemed a much better prospect than my home made bodge up

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/USB-1-3M-Hand...ryZ48741QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem









:thumb:


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## Affection to Detail (Jul 6, 2006)

Saying that I have seen some good prices for the proscope but £50 sounds better :thumb:


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## PJS (Aug 18, 2007)

L200 Steve said:


> If you can hang on a day or two till I can get a decent write up done Mark, I think that I have come up with the answer, for sub £50.
> 
> Seriously, this will blow your socks off.
> 
> ...


Right, you've had a day - where's this write up ya bugger?!
If I sit any more forward on the edge of me seat, I'll fall off! Is that what you want to hear happening?
And before any smartarse says as much, no I didn't fall off it today - that was a genuine earthquake tremor you felt, not my **** hitting the floor!


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## L200 Steve (Oct 25, 2005)

Little taster video to give everybody an idea of what I am currently playing with.











You tube quality is by no means a true example of what this actually looks like in real time displayed at 1280 x 800 on the screen of my macbook.


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## matt (Jun 29, 2006)

WOW!! Thats awesome Steve! So this was a section of paint on your Hilux?


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## L200 Steve (Oct 25, 2005)

matt said:


> WOW!! Thats awesome Steve! So this was a section of paint on your Hilux?


Yep:thumb:

The scratch is about an inch long on the tailgate of the truck, the fallout is on the bonnet of it.

It looks even cooler on the full screen at hi res on my Macbook.:thumb:

Guess that I am going to have to crack out the Metabo on the Hilux on somepoint, but this bit of kit should show me the level of finish that I've created.

I intend to do a proper write up of the kit once I'm a bit more knowledged in its use, with some normal camera shots as well as the highlighted stuff.


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## ahaydock (Jan 4, 2007)

Great pics there - thanks for sharing :thumb:


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## matt (Jun 29, 2006)

Apart from the fallout how did you get the scratch? 

Also, although your location is taking it to the extreme with regard to levels of fallout your wagon is subjected to, does this pose the question of how much the LSP actually protects the paintwork? From the day we spent last year inspecting paint ive found it a fascinating subject, especially actually being able to see the fallout pitted into the paint.


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## L200 Steve (Oct 25, 2005)

matt said:


> Apart from the fallout how did you get the scratch?
> 
> Also, although your location is taking it to the extreme with regard to levels of fallout your wagon is subjected to, does this pose the question of how much the LSP actually protects the paintwork? From the day we spent last year inspecting paint ive found it a fascinating subject, especially actually being able to see the fallout pitted into the paint.


I'm not sure where the scratch came from

The industrial fallout - Waxes tend to give a soft shell finish - Even some of the long life waxes - Whilst protecting the paint from the elements, they actually allow the fallout to sink into the wax layer, where it is held in suspension and continues to eat away at the paint. Sealants tend to give a much harder shell of protection, but obviously don't look as good as a quality wax.

The swirls - This marring is 'only' just visible under the light from a sun gun. The brinkman fails to pick them up. It'll be good to take the macbook and camera with me when I next take the Metabo to the paintwork, to see if I can actually get the finish that I think that I can.

I love playing with stuff like this


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## matt (Jun 29, 2006)

Yeah because its what you're good at Steve! Your statement about fallout rings true to me as i found that by switching to a sealant onstead of a wax on my dads car which is sat under trees all day, the sealant keeps the paint 'feeling' smoother for longer so im guessing its holding the sap off more than the wax. Im really looking forward to seeing your results mate! :thumb:


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## Alex L (Oct 25, 2005)

It was because of one of your posts about wax/sealants & Industrial fallout that Neil and I used Zaino on the Forester we did, as that is parked next to a train station and main road all day long.

And any tools that can help me with future work I'm very interested to read about :thumb: :thumb:


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## drive 'n' shine (Apr 22, 2006)

Fascinating stuff Steve, just love the lengths at which you go to in trialing testing and finding the reasons behind things - have you tried any of the G Technic sealant? I reckon its something that you might find worthwhile trying out in its resistance to fallout


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## Alex L (Oct 25, 2005)

drive 'n' shine said:


> Fascinating stuff Steve, just love the lengths at which you go to in trialing testing and finding the reasons behind things - have you tried any of the G Technic sealant? I reckon its something that you might find worthwhile trying out in its resistance to fallout


Can you buy that stuff yet Bry?


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## L200 Steve (Oct 25, 2005)

Alex L said:


> It was because of one of your posts about wax/sealants & Industrial fallout that Neil and I used Zaino on the Forester we did, as that is parked next to a train station and main road all day long.
> 
> And any tools that can help me with future work I'm very interested to read about :thumb: :thumb:


I spent Sunday trying to show Neil and Epoch stuff with the microscope, but struggled due to it being difficult to keep the microscope in exactly the same place while the three of us ooh'd and arr'd over the microscopic damage that had been done to the donor car by fallout eating through the paint. We also saw scratches that looked at first sight to be removable through normal detailing methods but under the microscope it became obvious that they were a lot deeper than we had at first thought.

I left Epoch's on Sunday set in my mind that I was going to build a tool to show all interested exactly what is going on clearly on the surface of their car as it is being detailed. What swirls look like, the depth of damage and the havoc that industrial fallout can cause.

It's thursday evening, I think that I'm there:thumb:

Just need to have a bit more of a play, then I'll share my findings to those interested.


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## Alex L (Oct 25, 2005)

L200 Steve said:


> I spent Sunday trying to show Neil and Epoch stuff with the microscope, but struggled due to it being difficult to keep the microscope in exactly the same place while the three of us ooh'd and arr'd over the microscopic damage that had been done to the donor car by fallout eating through the paint. We also saw scratches that looked at first sight to be removable through normal detailing methods but under the microscope it became obvious that they were a lot deeper than we had at first thought.
> 
> I left Epoch's on Sunday set in my mind that I was going to build a tool to show all interested exactly what is going on clearly on the surface of their car as it is being detailed. What swirls look like, the depth of damage and the havoc that industrial fallout can cause.
> 
> ...


As soon as my old work sort out the money they owe me I'll have to make the trip up to see you guys (and hopefully give my car a little polish up   so I can enjoy her while we still have time together. dont know who I'm going to miss more when I go, the GF or my car   ).


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## matt (Jun 29, 2006)

Ooh!!! Yay! :thumb:


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## matt (Jun 29, 2006)

Alex L said:


> As soon as my old work sort out the money they owe me I'll have to make the trip up to see you guys (and hopefully give my car a little polish up   so I can enjoy her while we still have time together. dont know who I'm going to miss more when I go, the GF or my car   ).


Shes not going with you alex?


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## Alex L (Oct 25, 2005)

matt said:


> Shes not going with you alex?


No, she's staying till the end of the school year and is waiting for a date for a knee op.

Or if you mean the other girl in my life it'll cost me too much to ship her over lol.


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## ZoranC (Jun 9, 2007)

L200 Steve said:


> Little taster video to give everybody an idea of what I am currently playing with.


Impressive! Which tool is this?


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## L200 Steve (Oct 25, 2005)

A little bit more playing with my latest toy today.

Here it is -










It is Dino-Lite AM-311 Digital Microscope -










Connected to your PC or Mac by a USB cable, the focus controlled by this thumb wheel -










Four LED's shine a brilliant white light to help light up what you are trying to view -










The footage shown 'full screen' on your computer monitor, making it really easy to see what is going on -










Time for some paint tests - Here's a test plate that I sprayed up the other day with a new type of paint to us, I've highlighted a scratch -










A cropped close up of the scratch using normal methods (photoshop) -










A digital still image captured from the Dino Lite of the scratch at 30x magnification -










Notice how the flake in the paint isn't 'dazzled' by the LED's, allowing a clear view of what is going on. Here's the same scratch under 180x magnification, showing that even though this is feelable by finger nail, the scratch should come out with polishing -










Swirlage? Here's a picture of the test plate under the EP200 sun gun - Notice the ultra fine swirlage to the right of the light -










The swirlage easily seen in this capture by the Dinolite at 30x -










The same swirlage but this time at 180x magnification -










Conclusion - The more that I play with this tool, the more useful that it is becoming in assisting me in identifying what is actually happening as I carry out defect removal work. It also aids showing the customer exactly what you are doing too.

Going to grab some industrial fallout shots next:thumb:


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## Brazo (Oct 27, 2005)

Steve whilst it is undoubtfully interesting and safer does it improve the end result? Microscopically yes but to the naked eye?


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## L200 Steve (Oct 25, 2005)

Brazo said:


> Steve whilst it is undoubtfully interesting and safer does it improve the end result? Microscopically yes but to the naked eye?


Hopefully, when dealing with the RDS's that would otherwise be left behind, then the answer is yes.

I'm not intending to use it with current '#83 on a polishing pad' type jobs, but instead trying to raise the bar using this in conjunction with other techniques that I'm playing with. Hopefully looking to totally remove deeper RDS's that spoil an otherwise perfect finish:thumb:


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## Alex L (Oct 25, 2005)

Great shots Steve 

I could see that being useful for pre detail inspections to confirm to the person what definetly can and can't be removed.


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## drive 'n' shine (Apr 22, 2006)

Steve do you have link for this microscope please


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## L200 Steve (Oct 25, 2005)

drive 'n' shine said:


> Steve do you have link for this microscope please


Link to manufacturers site - http://www.anmo.com.tw/

Link to where mine came from - http://www.novatech.co.uk/novatech/products/a925x1y0z1p0s0n0m0
:wave:


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## L200 Steve (Oct 25, 2005)

Alex L said:


> Great shots Steve
> 
> I could see that being useful for pre detail inspections to confirm to the person what definetly can and can't be removed.


Spot on mate, that's what I am hoping to do with this.

Plus help to give myself a better understanding of what is really happening when I polish / wet sand.

Each chance that I get, I'm hoping to take a few more snaps:thumb:


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## drive 'n' shine (Apr 22, 2006)

L200 Steve said:


> Link to manufacturers site - http://www.anmo.com.tw/
> 
> Link to where mine came from - http://www.novatech.co.uk/novatech/products/a925x1y0z1p0s0n0m0
> :wave:


Ta Muchly :thumb:


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## Alex L (Oct 25, 2005)

They had one of these on CSI:NY last night, must've been reading your post Steve :lol:


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## PJS (Aug 18, 2007)

Proscope HR - $500 with a 10x lens, and 100x being another $199 or $249 on top!


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## Affection to Detail (Jul 6, 2006)

PJS said:


> Proscope HR - $500 with a 10x lens, and 100x being another $199 or $249 on top!


I'd seen it for about £200 delivered IIRC. Saying that, you'd still need a laptop with both.


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## glyn waxmaster (Dec 20, 2006)

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/New-USB-1-3-M...ryZ48741QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

what about this one


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## Wheelie_Clean (Jun 16, 2007)

glyn waxmaster said:


> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/New-USB-1-3-M...ryZ48741QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
> 
> what about this one


Looks very similar but the postage brings it to a similar price


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## L200 Steve (Oct 25, 2005)

Ordered mine last thing last Sunday night.

It was with me first thing Tuesday morning, c/w VAT receipt so that I could 'claim' a little back:thumb:


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## Neil_S (Oct 26, 2005)

I feel a trip down to Novatech coming on


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## Neil_S (Oct 26, 2005)

Makes me wonder if this sort of microscope may be useful for assisting in the touching in of stone chips. I've always wanted to see in more detail, maybe a little tricky with the positioning of the laptop is the only thing.


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## Wheelie_Clean (Jun 16, 2007)

Looks to be very good value for money to me, I am tempted:thumb:


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