# EV long distance experiences



## DLGWRX02 (Apr 6, 2010)

Ok, i've just completed my first long distance commute in my Leaf. just thought i would share some positives and negatives.

I left Great Yarmouth last Monday at 9am and headed south, a bit of very careful driving i managed the near 150 mile journey to Nissan HQ in Maple cross with about 3% battery left, 1 hour 17 mins later i was back on the road with 96% battery, this took me straight to my next charge location at another Nissan dealers in Wincanton about 95 miles away, 1 hour later on the road again for the last leg of my journey down to Sandy bay, just outside of Exmouth on the south coast arrived at 6.45pm. Total cost £0. Five days driving around always charging up from my caravan over night meant still no cost. Return journey i chose a different route deciding to use the M5 north up to the m6 then across to the A14 onto A47 home. Huge mistake! There was only 1 dealer on route and that was a bit off course in to Gloucester, So we packed up and left at 8.30am when i arrived around 10am i found the charger in use so after speaking with staff it turned out to be a staff car that had been left on the rapid for just over 3 hours! So 30 minutes later i was finally plugged in but because of its over use it wasn't running at full power so after nearly 90 mins i only made 70% charge but couldn't wait any longer so i had to reconfigure my charge locations as i was relying on at least 90% charge to get to my next location. Then for some unknown reason my sat nav decides the m5 isn't a nice place to drive so it took me through all the different A roads where i encounter traffic jam after traffic jam, this actually helps an EV as it has the reverse effect of normal petrol cars instead of decreasing battery life it aids it by not letting it get too hot and it's super economical in start stop traffic, if not very slow. I finally made it to my revised charge point at a Holiday inn at rugby only 70 miles but it took 3.5hrs! Then i found i had to download an app, register my car at the hotel, and it should have cost me £7.20 for 30 mins charge! but for some reason my app disconnected and i didn't get charged. This gave me just enough power to reach a 3rd charge point at the Peterborough A1m services, i arrived there at just after 6pm and was only allowed 1 hour charge i got to 97% at a cost of £ 9.68 with connection fees. This got me all the way back to yarmouth where i arrived at 9.15pm with 4% battery and 6 miles left on the meter! In short i covered 654 miles and it cost me the grand sum of £9.68.but yes was very slow and very boring however with most of the autonomous featured probably some of the easiest driving i've done in a while.


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

Sometimes time is more valuable than money. 

I simply couldn't be bothered trying to plan trips around charging stations and waiting for a charge. 

Electric cars are fine for town cars, but they aren't ready for real world use yet.


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## garage_dweller (Apr 10, 2018)

That all sounds a bit of a hassle to be honest. And probably quite stressful. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Andyblue (Jun 20, 2017)

Great write up and very interesting plan for the journey, but I think the stress of getting down to 3-4% would really do me in !! 


Trying to work out costs of what it would cost us v electric - which I know are not accurate, but interested...

Very quick calculations from wife’s motor - 654 miles equates to about £60 fuel. 

If you didn’t have access to Nissan dealership charging (which I didn’t know you had and was free, so impressed with that :thumb: ) - it should have cost you £17 + 1 charge on way home - would you say £7 or ??, so around £23-24 for return journey. 
So there and back is around £45-50 plus you’re driving around whilst there ?? Or have I got it completely wrong ? - is it cheaper to charge up once registered ? Do you pay connection charge each time or is it a 1 off charge for that app / service ?

Cheers :thumb:


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## Supermega (Nov 10, 2008)

It was all too much of a faff when we had the Zoe- being third in-line to use a rapid charger was the last straw for me. Don’t get me wrong, for commuting 20 miles a day it was perfect, we just used the other car for all the distance stuff after that.


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## DLGWRX02 (Apr 6, 2010)

Andyblue said:


> Great write up and very interesting plan for the journey, but I think the stress of getting down to 3-4% would really do me in !!
> 
> Trying to work out costs of what it would cost us v electric - which I know are not accurate, but interested...
> 
> ...


They all vary in cost, some are PAYG, some are flat rated per session, some are limited times. The Polar machines if you sign up you pay £8 per month (free for first 3 months) and then you can use any of them as frequently as you wish with no cost, but unfortunately for me there ain't any around me, and it's not like i'm doing that journey more than once a year. Instavolt machines seem to be currently on free vend so don't know what the charge for using these, there's then probably the most common Ecotricity which are £1 connection and then between 30p and 50per kWh unless you se them for home supply which means you get them at 50% cheaper, then some are limited to max stay of 45 or 60 minutes, over stay can cost you £10 per hour or a fine. Some petrol stations are now offering mobile 50kWh charging units but at stupid price pkWh. I believe nearly all charging points in scotland are free to use.

The thing that got me is there are apps out there like plugshare, wattsup, etc that work but if you haven't got data or wifi you are screwed unless you take the time to plan. The sat nav in the car is about as useful as a chocolate fire guard. Still can't figure out android auto either but that's my fault not the car.lol

My wife said he t time we do long distance we're taking hers.lol. but i enjoyed it, was in no rush to be honest which made it an enjoyable drive. may of been a different story if time had been a factor.


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## percymon (Jun 27, 2007)

I’ve only charged at a Nissan dealer when the car was with them for service or warranty. Too much hassle as they normally have their demos or service car plugged in or at least parked in the spaces (7kw chargers I’ll add).

On longer journeys I use electric highway which whilst not the cheapest option they do tend to be reliable, sometimes free vend, and I’ve only had to wait for a charger a couple of times. I’ve done one trip which needed two charges, stopping once isn’t so bad as it’s a chance for a loo break, stretch legs etc. The second stop got a bit annoying as we just wanted to get to the hotel - this was late on a Friday night after a week in work, so not the best time to be doing a long journey.

Theres no denying that outside of a Tesla (and maybe an i3 with range extender) electric cars are a compromise. I love my leaf for its commuting ability, 2 days on a single home charge. £6/week for 300 miles.

This week I had to drive 175 miles at 15 minutes notice to see my father in law in hospital. I could have taken the leaf had it been charged up (I’d only been home 20 minutes after second day of commute), or I’d waited another 90 minutes so it had enough juice to reach my nearest on route rapid, charged for 40 minutes there and then just about made it to the hospital. I’d have then had to search around for a charger at 1am.
With time of the essence I just threw a change of clothes in the Boxster and headed off. 3 1/4 hours later I arrived; I would have been there over 2 hours later had I taken the leaf. I drove back home after 3 hours at the hospital, not having to worry about anything bar badgers, foxes and a £20 fuel stop. It cost me £75 in fuel for the 350 miles versus perhaps £15 in electric on route charging but that £60 extra made for a lot less hassle, a lot less worry and a much shorter journey time.

I had to do the same journey again yesterday; even with the leaf fully charged and ready to go I took the Boxster; after the week I’d had the last thing I wanted was to be waiting to charge on route on both legs of the journey. 

I do love the leaf for its quiet , relaxing drive as a fantastic commuting and local driving tool. I can accept the charging on longer journeys where I have time to spare and the costs savings are worth it. It’s compromise for me is it’s just not a car you can jump in and drive easily at a moments notice.


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## Andy from Sandy (May 6, 2011)

I struggled to read most of what you wrote but how did connecting to your caravan work to charge for no cost?


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## Derekh929 (Aug 28, 2011)

I’m with Kerr on this front I like to do a journey in as short of hassle as possible not have to make military planning.
Thing is just think how safe our motorways would be with all these cars running on 3% charge and clogging up roads with all there detours to get power.
We all forget the battery tech is still far to expensive along with the card look at Tesla ridiculous pricing, I may be temped with hybrid with electric motors at some point, but what happens after these cars are out of warranty who is going to service ? Dealers will have monopoly for sure.
The tech needs to move a huge amount yet I seen a few go electric know they are back in derv.

I’m the worst with V8 but give me nice sounding lower capicty engine with motors on rear wheels I will be tempted, thanks for posting up your experience


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## DLGWRX02 (Apr 6, 2010)

Andy from Sandy said:


> I struggled to read most of what you wrote but how did connecting to your caravan work to charge for no cost?


it was a static caravan not the towing type, you can charge up via an ordinary 3 pin socket, so as i was parked beside the caravan i just plugged it in and run the cable out the window.


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## DLGWRX02 (Apr 6, 2010)

Derekh929 said:


> I'm with Kerr on this front I like to do a journey in as short of hassle as possible not have to make military planning.
> Thing is just think how safe our motorways would be with all these cars running on 3% charge and clogging up roads with all there detours to get power.
> We all forget the battery tech is still far to expensive along with the card look at Tesla ridiculous pricing, I may be temped with hybrid with electric motors at some point, but what happens after these cars are out of warranty who is going to service ? Dealers will have monopoly for sure.
> The tech needs to move a huge amount yet I seen a few go electric know they are back in derv.
> ...


Tesla do seem to have the majority share. Just look at this. At the Fleet services on the M3. They are in the middle if installing charge points, 2 x ecotricity points which will accomidate nearly all EV types. Then Tesla superchargers that due to there technology only allow teslas to charge.









Does seem a little unfair that tesla can use any points as well as having there own dedicated machines.


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## Andyblue (Jun 20, 2017)

DLGWRX02 said:


> They all vary in cost, some are PAYG, some are flat rated per session, some are limited times. The Polar machines if you sign up you pay £8 per month (free for first 3 months) and then you can use any of them as frequently as you wish with no cost, but unfortunately for me there ain't any around me, and it's not like i'm doing that journey more than once a year. Instavolt machines seem to be currently on free vend so don't know what the charge for using these, there's then probably the most common Ecotricity which are £1 connection and then between 30p and 50per kWh unless you se them for home supply which means you get them at 50% cheaper, then some are limited to max stay of 45 or 60 minutes, over stay can cost you £10 per hour or a fine. Some petrol stations are now offering mobile 50kWh charging units but at stupid price pkWh. I believe nearly all charging points in scotland are free to use.
> 
> The thing that got me is there are apps out there like plugshare, wattsup, etc that work but if you haven't got data or wifi you are screwed unless you take the time to plan. The sat nav in the car is about as useful as a chocolate fire guard. Still can't figure out android auto either but that's my fault not the car.lol
> 
> My wife said he t time we do long distance we're taking hers.lol. but i enjoyed it, was in no rush to be honest which made it an enjoyable drive. may of been a different story if time had been a factor.


Fantastic, cheers mate.

Certainly seems from this and a couple of posts on the thread - perfect for everyday commenting, but not there yet for the distance journey


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## DLGWRX02 (Apr 6, 2010)

Andyblue said:


> Fantastic, cheers mate.
> 
> Certainly seems from this and a couple of posts on the thread - perfect for everyday commenting, but not there yet for the distance journey


Couldn't have summed it up better myself. I'm positive thinking though, so things can only get better


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## c87reed (Dec 9, 2015)

I ran around in a '15 Leaf for a few days. Sketched out a plan in my head to make a trip towards Ripon from Manchester, I knew where I could charge and what not. Anyhow, there was a smash on the M62 and this meant that I had to take a longer detour and I just didn't have enough mileage in the battery, this then meant that I had to make an additional stop as a result of the longer detour and on top of that I was already running late. All in all it was a bit of a disaster. 

Having said that times are moving on at speed and a lot of improvements have been made to both the cars and infrastructure since then.

In the future I can imagine fuel stations being like an exchange point where you exchange your battery for an already charged one, just like a battery drill.


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## NeilG40 (Jan 1, 2009)

c87reed said:


> In the future I can imagine fuel stations being like an exchange point where you exchange your battery for an already charged one, just like a battery drill.


It's never going to happen, you'd have to keep a stock of too many different shaped packs for each kind of car or go with a one size fits all pack which compromises how many cells you can fit and that's without any consideration to the packs being a structural part of the car. Already been tried and quickly abandoned.

Anyway DLGWRX02, how are you find the car from a detailing point of view, I find on my Leaf 30 that tyre dressing lasts much longer due to the reduced brake dust from regenerative braking.


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## davies20 (Feb 22, 2009)

Great read for two reasons:

1) I'm really interested in leasing an EV car.

2) You stayed at Sandy bay! I bloody love the place - been twice this year


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## DLGWRX02 (Apr 6, 2010)

NeilG40 said:


> Anyway DLGWRX02, how are you find the car from a detailing point of view, I find on my Leaf 30 that tyre dressing lasts much longer due to the reduced brake dust from regenerative braking.


from a detailing point of view, SO MUCH EASIER. lol, no nasty diesel soot or exhaust stains on the back, wheels definitely stay so much cleaner, I've set the epedal to permanently be on so the brakes get very little use. And of course it's about half the size of my previous Range rover sport.lol


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## DLGWRX02 (Apr 6, 2010)

davies20 said:


> Great read for two reasons:
> 
> 1) I'm really interested in leasing an EV car.
> 
> 2) You stayed at Sandy bay! I bloody love the place - been twice this year


It was my first time there was very impressed, both my wife and daughter previously worked for Haven so we got the caravan for peanuts, Top spec prestige for £60 for monday to friday. Couldn't complain at that, and it is truely beautiful place with a stunning beach.


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## davies20 (Feb 22, 2009)

DLGWRX02 said:


> It was my first time there was very impressed, both my wife and daughter previously worked for Haven so we got the caravan for peanuts, Top spec prestige for £60 for monday to friday. Couldn't complain at that, and it is truely beautiful place with a stunning beach.


wow! thats some saving!

First time we went with Haven, second we booked a private hire van due to it being around £6/700 cheaper!!

Superb site, location & beach :thumb:


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## shl-kelso (Dec 27, 2012)

Derekh929 said:


> I'm with Kerr on this front I like to do a journey in as short of hassle as possible not have to make military planning.
> 
> Thing is just think how safe our motorways would be with all these cars running on 3% charge and clogging up roads with all there detours to get power.
> 
> ...


Don't knock EVs until you've tried them. There are rapid chargers at just about every motorway service station, so no reasonable driver will be aiming to arrive at a charger on the motorway in turtle mode (reduced power just before you charge runs out completely).

And do you see convoys of EVs blocking roads looking for chargers just now? There are plenty on the roads, and the majority mostly charge at home unless they are on long trips.

With 300 mile models from Kia and Hyundai recently launched there are real long range options for far less than Tesla prices too - still not cheap to buy but getting much more realistic.

Plug in hybrids are another option, and I have just collected and Outlander PHEV which gives me double the MPG over the diesel SUV it replaces. Other than Tesla there is not really any other choice in this vehicle size, but at least it allows me a reasonable amount of EV miles and also drives like an EV too (instant torque from a standstill etc). My other car is a Soul EV - simply the best value second car for me that is a full electric/battery only option. I'd not choose to try and drive several hundred miles in this (although it could easily do it) simply because of the need to plan and allow for charging en route. But return journeys of 100 miles require no charging, and double that with one 20-30 min charge at a rapid is not too much hassle for me generally. If I need the bigger car or to cover higher mileage I take the PHEV.

There are also a growing number of independent specialists able to service EVs too. However there are independents specialists around, and there will be more to come as EVs become more popular.


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## Derekh929 (Aug 28, 2011)

shl-kelso said:


> Don't knock EVs until you've tried them. There are rapid chargers at just about every motorway service station, so no reasonable driver will be aiming to arrive at a charger on the motorway in turtle mode (reduced power just before you charge runs out completely).
> 
> And do you see convoys of EVs blocking roads looking for chargers just now? There are plenty on the roads, and the majority mostly charge at home unless they are on long trips.
> 
> ...


The problem with all this is the hidden cost of any green energy and the hidden emissions, wind farms for example the break even point on emissions is many years when turbines will need internal renewed some process starts again.
Ev will be part of the future but other options need to be out there, as I spent a week in LA with relations Tesla S drove it one day and was surprised by it. But even in LA he often had to wait or rack around for a place to charge and then we were off somewhere else.
surely at present if a company that has employs stuck at charging points that's not efficient?
I think you will need to spend loads of the public purse to get people to adopt and look at the bottomless pit spent on rail and the service never seems to improve.
I'm all for tech and change but you need to have a viable alternative and until the take up rate is a massive amount higher companies will struggle to make a financial argument for them.
Look at Tesla shedding 1 Billion a quarter if they did not have loyal Apple style fan base they would have been dead in the water a long time ago.
I'm looking at people switching back from electric cars locally to derv that's not a good sign and the figures the quote for range just like MPG are miles out usually again a problem with the lack of places to charge.


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## garage_dweller (Apr 10, 2018)

> I think you will need to spend loads of the public purse to get people to adopt and look at the bottomless pit spent on rail and the service never seems to improve.


I don't think the solution is hundreds of charging points, the solution is extending the range the vehicles will cover, and that will come. Yes you still need a decent infrastructure but if the range can be extended to say 700 miles then that's going to stop the majority searching the country trying to find a charging point.


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## Derekh929 (Aug 28, 2011)

garage_dweller said:


> I don't think the solution is hundreds of charging points, the solution is extending the range the vehicles will cover, and that will come. Yes you still need a decent infrastructure but if the range can be extended to say 700 miles then that's going to stop the majority searching the country trying to find a charging point.


Yes agree, but these companies are not going to keep spending and losing endless money like tesla to vastly improve battery range, look at EV tech re range of the last 5 years and then think when governments plan to push more and more it just aint going to happen quick enough, either another solution needed or more government support for R&D.

We will all need to change to a different source of propulsion at some point i'm not against that, and yes if more took the risk know it would drive more mainstream manufactures to commit to more R&D.
Thing is battery tech has not proved it self and if need new batteries more frequent then the emmisions burned to replace them will use up so much of the saving in the long run IMHO.

God I was in multi story at weekend 4 floors of pleasure parking up with the lovely sound of the V8 im going to miss that, but hey we aint all worried about a nice sound, and not everyone drives their cars just for fun


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## mar00 (Jun 24, 2018)

as usual in the Uk now EV's are more to look like we're doing something than actually doing something useful and passing the problem to someone else, unless the tech that can charge them in a few minutes arrives soon we just don't have the infrastructure to support them and there are a very small amount in use, the problem will become worse as more EV cars are used, if you go in any supermarket station you're always waiting now, the charging stations can potential go anywhere but will still not meet the requirements to replace petrol cars,

solar panel bodies that can hold a charge would work then you wouldn't need any stations at all, with sealed for life motors there would be very little to service and would last for years, but government would lose tax and big companies would lose out so can't see that happening,


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## kingswood (Jun 23, 2016)

they'll force them onto us soon enough so dont encourage them.

eco friendy but juice comes from power stations?! 

while the world economy is built on oil luckily they'll only pay ev cars lip service.


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## Alex_225 (Feb 7, 2008)

I commend anyone for moving to an EV and especially seeing how meticulously a long journey has to be planned. 

Personally, the range isn't quite there yet and that's the decider for me. My E Class is capable of 800+ miles to a tank and as I regularly do 260 miles in one hit, I can't afford to be stopping for charges. 

By contrast, my mum who does 4 miles to work each way through town is an ideal candidate for an EV. She'd charge it once a week, maybe twice and could leave it overnight and off she goes. The longest drive she does is 25 miles each way and that's where an EV would shine.


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## NeilG40 (Jan 1, 2009)

I think there will be a big change in people's attitude to electric cars when the company car tax rate drops to 2% in 2020, I mentioned it to somebody on the car scheme at work and they were surprised at how low it was.


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## DLGWRX02 (Apr 6, 2010)

Ile hold my hands up, i didn't buy an EV with the intention of being eco friendly, i bought it to save money, on my recent adventure i was never far from a charger, i was just looking for the free ones. 

I do miss the sound of my old v8's but i do have me mums should i need to scratch the itch.


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## shl-kelso (Dec 27, 2012)

Derekh929 said:


> Yes agree, but these companies are not going to keep spending and losing endless money like tesla to vastly improve battery range, look at EV tech re range of the last 5 years and then think when governments plan to push more and more it just aint going to happen quick enough, either another solution needed or more government support for R&D.
> 
> We will all need to change to a different source of propulsion at some point i'm not against that, and yes if more took the risk know it would drive more mainstream manufactures to commit to more R&D.
> 
> ...


I don't know how you can say battery tech has not proved itself. We've got EV only taxi firms that have completed 150,000 miles in Nissan Leafs, rapid charged several times a day and with no significant battery degradation.

There are improvements to be made which will hopefully both increase capacity/energy density, increase energy transfer rates, and bring down costs. However battery vehicles do not have to prove they are the future as they are already here with more and more manufacturers launching models.

PHEVs offer a stepping stone and a safety net for those that currently do n it trust that full electric is right for them or that cannot yet get full electric models in their chose. vehicle sector.

It does need charging infrastructure to be sorted out as the current arrangements are a bit of a mess with so many competing companies requiring their own access methods. A common standard for allowing cross-company roaming is going to be a must-have for mass adoption.


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## Derekh929 (Aug 28, 2011)

shl-kelso said:


> I don't know how you can say battery tech has not proved itself. We've got EV only taxi firms that have completed 150,000 miles in Nissan Leafs, rapid charged several times a day and with no significant battery degradation.
> 
> There are improvements to be made which will hopefully both increase capacity/energy density, increase energy transfer rates, and bring down costs. However battery vehicles do not have to prove they are the future as they are already here with more and more manufacturers launching models.
> 
> ...


Look at ev sales to private individuals and cost comparisons to similar car in segment, for town car great, but your las paragraph is the elephant in the room.
Also if you look at BMW they have lost all their key ev staff to company in China and the cost to produce the cars is huge.
What's your opinion on Tesla losing 1 Billion a quarter? That to me tell you enough to say mass production of ev not working yet.
Take up would have to vastly increased to make it work, look at new car launches do they launch ev first? Will the tax be lower for them yes until enough on roads then will be taxed.

Also the country has huge amount of homes with low quality solar panels that will need replacing soon great to be in that sector only reason people bough was guaranteed rates for putting back electric.
Toyota Pirus all over San Fran look at then no more environmentaly friendly than a low emission 3 cylinder turbo engine.
I'm in no way anti ev but I'm not convinced yet I have driven i3 and other ev on test day even the BMW i8 did not for me at all looks great but disappointed with it to drive.
Next Alfa v6 with two electric motors on wheels I'm very interested in halfway house till we see proper ev network, companies are buying to increase their green creditial some to make them look good ? 
I love new tech and followed ev tech at goodwood fos and other sources for a few years and even the head people at goodwood admitted we ain't broken the surface yet


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## Marve (Jul 5, 2013)

Derekh929 said:


> What's your opinion on Tesla losing 1 Billion a quarter?


The reason Tesla have been losing money is because they are the only company that have been taking the EV market seriously enough.

They have lost money but they have positioned themselves so far ahead of the rest in terms of battery technology, it terms of charging network infrastructure etc. The main problem every other brand of EV will have is the charging issue, no access to a fast charger, needing to sign up to multiple different providers depending on what service station you are stopping at etc. That puts Tesla in such a strong position as BMW, Mercedes etc are not going to start building an infrastructure like Tesla have already done so. They are not going to able to lose a billion dollars a quarter whilst doing it like Tesla have been able to.

Tesla have taken most of that pain now and should be turning a profit this quarter for the first time. They will continue to invest in technology and infrastructure but it doesn't need to be to the same level anymore. Meanwhile on the revenue side of things you have the Model 3 which makes the car more affordable and enables them to scale up their sales in real numbers. All they need to do is finally crack being able to build them fast enough.

Tesla have been criticised for their build quality, but these things are relatively easily sorted. So much easier for them to sort that than it is for the traditional manufacturers to even come close to catching them up in terms of proprietary technology and charging network infrastructure.


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## ollienoclue (Jan 30, 2017)

I suspect we will have an electric car here within the next 3 or 4 years. 200 miles range is fine for me. Not sure about the wife with the nature of her work but for me it will be a no-brainer. I like the idea of cheap off peak juice and the ability to fill it up at home. I am glad I did not splunge 20 or 30K on solar panels as the saving by having an electric car will soon save me more on the fuel bill than panels will on electric.

If I had the cash I would have a Tesla X already. Teslas main problem is that they are not very experienced in car manufacture. Overall build quality, interiors and shut lines etc are the kind of issues that only manufacturing experience can solve. The technology for me is already mature enough but the big commuters obviously need more range yet.


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## Darlofan (Nov 24, 2010)

Until range is substantial they won't be that popular. Even for the average driver that 150 mile range is quite adequate for, they'll still think about that annual trip you do that is hundreds of miles or as somebody mentioned an emergency where you need to drive miles to see a relative which will put them off.
Then once majority start switching scientists will discover powering EVs is far more polluting than first thought and they'll tax them and electric to get lost taxes from petrol and derv!!


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## Mikesphotaes (Jul 24, 2016)

Indeed they will, can't see the ollie fella saving much money!


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## mar00 (Jun 24, 2018)

ollienoclue said:


> I
> 
> If I had the cash I would have a Tesla X already. Teslas main problem is that they are not very experienced in car manufacture. Overall build quality, interiors and shut lines etc are the kind of issues that only manufacturing experience can solve. The technology for me is already mature enough but the big commuters obviously need more range yet.


don't think the poor reliability and build quality is related to lack of experience, Landrover, vauxhall and the French have been making cars a long time and they're still bad, they just don't really care people will buy them anyway, they have the same strategy as Apple, let the customers be the beta testers, there is no reason a car at that value can't be put together well it is still just a car, it's just marketing and celebrities egos that keep then in the news they don't do anything new really,


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## ollienoclue (Jan 30, 2017)

mar00 said:


> don't think the poor reliability and build quality is related to lack of experience, Landrover, vauxhall and the French have been making cars a long time and they're still bad, they just don't really care people will buy them anyway, they have the same strategy as Apple, let the customers be the beta testers, there is no reason a car at that value can't be put together well it is still just a car, it's just marketing and celebrities egos that keep then in the news they don't do anything new really,


I agree with you mostly, I haven't owned a Ford or GM product forever and the woes of LR products are well known (I'm not convinced they are any worse than the Germans mind). I was more focusing on the complaints that Tesla seemed to have, mostly the interior of the car was very low rent (fitting a huge touch screen is actually a cheapskate way of doing cabin controls) compared to other vehicles with a similar 80K plus price tag. I have not been aware of mass complaints about Teslas actually breaking down, more the usual interior or auxiliary electrical woes which are again a feature of a company with not a lot of actual automotive manufacturing experience.

Electric cars are going save me a lot of money, but no doubt taxation will shift towards mileage or road charging but I can live with that as I don't and won't ever do crazy mileages.

The other earner is in servicing costs- we are talking about cars with no valvetrain, no belts, cams, no chains, no engine oil or filters, even the brakes are used far less and there is no exhaust or DPF to go sour, either. In fact there is no clutch to worry about, no dual mass flywheel and many electric cars don't even have a conventional gearbox to speak of, either.

What's not to like?


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## NeilG40 (Jan 1, 2009)

ollienoclue said:


> ...and many electric cars don't even have a conventional gearbox to speak of, either.
> 
> What's not to like?


I'm only aware of the Rimac that Richard Hammond crashed having an two speed automatic gearbox, everything else uses a single reducer gear.


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## mar00 (Jun 24, 2018)

ollienoclue said:


> The other earner is in servicing costs- we are talking about cars with no valvetrain, no belts, cams, no chains, no engine oil or filters, even the brakes are used far less and there is no exhaust or DPF to go sour, either. In fact there is no clutch to worry about, no dual mass flywheel and many electric cars don't even have a conventional gearbox to speak of, either.
> 
> What's not to like?


that looks copied straight from Tesla site, but doesn't say that have to be serviced every 12 month or 12,500 miles and costs about £600 plust parts, quite a lots if there is nothing to do  there are fluids in Teslas too, and the average modern car is 20,000 or 2 years, most now have sealed transmissions and cooling systems,

Tesla have problems but like Apple they never comment just cover it up,

tesla and a lot of electric cars have a motor per wheel so don't need a gearbox but have a lot of electronics to control them, as electric motors can supply full torque instantly,

realy the Nissan Leaf is the best all round electric car, it does everything the average town drive wants they just need to keep improving the range,


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## NeilG40 (Jan 1, 2009)

mar00 said:


> tesla and a lot of electric cars have a motor per wheel


Anything Tesla and cheaper have one motor if two wheel drive and two motors if four wheel drive, you're talking supercars when it comes to one motor per wheel.



mar00 said:


> realy the Nissan Leaf is the best all round electric car, it does everything the average town drive wants they just need to keep improving the range,


The Leaf battery has increased size in 2016 and again in 2018 and looks highly likely to do again in 2019.


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## Derekh929 (Aug 28, 2011)

It looks like many have cancelled their Tesla3 orders?

https://carbuzz.com/news/why-are-th...source=facebook&utm_campaign=carbuzz_facebook


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## phillipnoke (Apr 1, 2011)

Why do people buy electric cars Pointless


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## NeilG40 (Jan 1, 2009)

phillipnoke said:


> Why do people buy electric cars Pointless


Hmm, because they're nicer to drive


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## mar00 (Jun 24, 2018)

NeilG40 said:


> Anything Tesla and cheaper have one motor if two wheel drive and two motors if four wheel drive, you're talking supercars when it comes to one motor per wheel.
> 
> The Leaf battery has increased size in 2016 and again in 2018 and looks highly likely to do again in 2019.


didn't say all electric cars, but as Tesla is super car price you would assume it had the technology to go with the price rather than just lots of decorations, maybe they should spend more on improving the quality and less on marketing something they can't build,

as I said Nissan keep improving it incrementally , the basics haven't changed that much in 10 years or possibly more other than design refresh, it works and is very popular, it just doesn't do 0-60 in under 3 secs but who really cares unless you have an ego to fill, probably handles just as well too as it's weighs over half a tonne less, personally haven't driven one but have the tesla s and p and certainly not a sports car more of a one trick pony,


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## NeilG40 (Jan 1, 2009)

mar00 said:


> maybe they should spend more on improving the quality and less on marketing something they can't build,


I'm not sure that they do marketing in the traditional tv/magazine advert sense. They've got plenty of fans on youtube that do it for them.


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## mar00 (Jun 24, 2018)

NeilG40 said:


> I'm not sure that they do marketing in the traditional tv/magazine advert sense. They've got plenty of fans on youtube that do it for them.


everytime he on tv or in the news he's marketing, most of the article about tesla have marketing behind them, but you never seem to see any direct statements from tesla about all the problems they have, they have sheep just like apple tell people how great you are enough times and they start to believe and ignore the problems to justify all the money they've spent and like apple they collect other people's work put it in a fancy case and sell it as their own,


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## Derekh929 (Aug 28, 2011)

Marve said:


> The reason Tesla have been losing money is because they are the only company that have been taking the EV market seriously enough.
> 
> They have lost money but they have positioned themselves so far ahead of the rest in terms of battery technology, it terms of charging network infrastructure etc. The main problem every other brand of EV will have is the charging issue, no access to a fast charger, needing to sign up to multiple different providers depending on what service station you are stopping at etc. That puts Tesla in such a strong position as BMW, Mercedes etc are not going to start building an infrastructure like Tesla have already done so. They are not going to able to lose a billion dollars a quarter whilst doing it like Tesla have been able to.
> 
> ...


It seems like no profit again, by the looks of it.

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/10/05/ein...e-deception-is-about-to-catch-up-to-tsla.html


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## DLGWRX02 (Apr 6, 2010)

phillipnoke said:


> Why do people buy electric cars Pointless


Bit like this comment then?


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## Paul04 (Jul 26, 2013)

phillipnoke said:


> Why do people buy electric cars Pointless


please explain?


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## andy665 (Nov 1, 2005)

Tesla are supremely arrogant - witness the story of a Model S owner who had some bodywork done by someone else other than Tesla - they retaliated by switching off all over the air updates and access to the Supercharger network.


Hear of a lot of people buying Teslas - not heard much about customers making a repeat purchase - that's concerning


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## Marve (Jul 5, 2013)

Derekh929 said:


> It seems like no profit again, by the looks of it.
> 
> https://www.cnbc.com/2018/10/05/ein...e-deception-is-about-to-catch-up-to-tsla.html


That is a statement from somebody who is shorting the stock! It is in his interest to talk down the company on the back of the SEC story to drive down the stock price and make himself money.

Tesla stock price will continue to be volatile whilst it is such a hot topic, my point was that over the long term, they are so far ahead of the competition, it is unreal.


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## mar00 (Jun 24, 2018)

Marve said:


> That is a statement from somebody who is shorting the stock! It is in his interest to talk down the company on the back of the SEC story to drive down the stock price and make himself money.
> 
> Tesla stock price will continue to be volatile whilst it is such a hot topic, my point was that over the long term, they are so far ahead of the competition, it is unreal.


what are they ahead with, they haven't invented anything new, they have a few charging stations and keep repeating the 0-60 figures but only the press cars seem to be able to do it and they don't say it will only do it a couple of times before batteries overheat and same when driven hard for a few minutes,

all they are doing is taking attention and money away from people inventing useful green technology,


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## ollienoclue (Jan 30, 2017)

Tesla are ahead, not so much in technology (although they might try hard to make it appear that way) but in their marketing and product development.

They could do this because A investors wowed by the Musk factor (I would never trust him with £1 of my money) and B they were not previous car makers lumbered down with huge arrays of factories or legions of staff or technology they have invested in for decades that they now need to dump (ie petrol and diesel drivetrains).

Electric cars are far from pointless. They are very quiet, very simple (a bonus for reliability) and virtually idiot proof. There are videos of folk driving their Teslas through flood waters that have killed other conventional vehicles. The delivery of power and torque from electric motors, is just insane.

And as soon as electric vehicles hit mainstream and are in significant numbers- do you really believe I would pay £600 for a 'service'. Fudge that. I can change the oil coolant and brake pads myself, although given the savings in fuel costs I could afford to get the car transported to the dealer and services and brought back and still be quids in.

Seriously, diesel engines have hit the wall because of the increasing complexity and cost of their emissions regulations, they will be largely gone from the passenger vehicle market in 20 years, we will look at anything diesel in the same way we look at V8s today. Electric cars just make so much of the current car manufacturing R and D chain superfluous and this is why many car makers are so reluctant to make the shift very rapidly yet. If you are saying you will stop selling a particular powertrain by year X, all the staff and tooling and factory space is already redundant. Electric motors are already manufactured on a massive scale and they are so simple compared to a modern engine it's nearly a joke. Battery tech is indeed evolving but how many car makers will throw money at that field? We're talking cutting edge materials science, chemistry and physics with batteries, at least if you threw 200 million Euros at petrol engines you would get something tangible in the form of improvement you could market. In new battery tech you might get nothing and if you did the numbers don't carry any weight in the minds of consumers, at least not yet.

No, believe electric cars will be a huge game changer and some companies are going to die out. Anything else you can run on biodiesel/butanol from plant based sources. I don't think for one second you will run an airliner, 70 tonne excavator or ship on batteries practically.


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## NeilG40 (Jan 1, 2009)

ollienoclue said:


> I don't think for one second you will run an airliner, 70 tonne excavator or ship on batteries practically.


What about a 65 tonne dumper truck?

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2017/0...-will-be-the-worlds-biggest-electric-vehicle/


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## DLGWRX02 (Apr 6, 2010)

NeilG40 said:


> What about a 65 tonne dumper truck?
> 
> https://arstechnica.com/cars/2017/0...-will-be-the-worlds-biggest-electric-vehicle/


Damn, :doublesho That could charge me fully on one down hill trip..lol


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## ollienoclue (Jan 30, 2017)

NeilG40 said:


> What about a 65 tonne dumper truck?
> 
> https://arstechnica.com/cars/2017/0...-will-be-the-worlds-biggest-electric-vehicle/


That only works because the vehicle is going uphill empty and downhill loaded.

Running a machine that size or an excavator for 12 hours on battery alone would be a different matter. A lot of quarry type plant has 300KW engines or larger. a 700Kwh battery isn't going to last long.

I do see they make electric excavators but these are supplied by a huge mains cable.


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## mar00 (Jun 24, 2018)

ollienoclue said:


> That only works because the vehicle is going uphill empty and downhill loaded.
> 
> Running a machine that size or an excavator for 12 hours on battery alone would be a different matter. A lot of quarry type plant has 300KW engines or larger. a 700Kwh battery isn't going to last long.
> 
> I do see they make electric excavators but these are supplied by a huge mains cable.


most large plant will use hydraulic motors, the electric motor will just drive the pump, so ideal if they can improve the batteries enough and or solar tech,


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## ollienoclue (Jan 30, 2017)

mar00 said:


> most large plant will use hydraulic motors, the electric motor will just drive the pump, so ideal if they can improve the batteries enough and or solar tech,


Indeed, but storing even 3500Kwh in batteries (which is a fairly modest excavator working for a 10 hour day) is enough to make me break out into a cold sweat.

The sheer utility of carrying a liquid fuel of high energy density in a fuel tank is just the most practical way forward, for now at least. I know battery technology is on going but solar power is virtually a waste of time, there is only so much energy falling on a square metre of the Earth's surface- around 1000 watts. Even if you could capture all of that through photovoltaic cells, for a 350Kw engined excavator you are talking 35 square metres of panels.

I have no question whatsoever about the efficiency of electric motors, they are a hugely well developed technology and almost boringly simple compared to an engine, my concern is how the heck you store thousands of Kwh effectively enough to make it portable. It's hard enough on a large vehicle that weighs 70 tonnes already. An airliner where the energy requirement is massive and weight needs to be minimised? Ouch.


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## mar00 (Jun 24, 2018)

you wouldn't need to capture all the solar just enough to assist, panel density is increasing too, also a lot of regenerative energy available, non of the green technology's can do the job alone yet, 

but in reality cars and plant isn't the really issues with pollution just a very minor part, but an easy target to pick on for the government to look like they're doing something,

but in the meantime I'll keep driving the V!0 and flat 6 before they get banned,


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## ollienoclue (Jan 30, 2017)

mar00 said:


> you wouldn't need to capture all the solar just enough to assist, panel density is increasing too, also a lot of regenerative energy available, non of the green technology's can do the job alone yet,
> 
> but in reality cars and plant isn't the really issues with pollution just a very minor part, but an easy target to pick on for the government to look like they're doing something,
> 
> but in the meantime I'll keep driving the V!0 and flat 6 before they get banned,


I was just stating that all the sunlight that is ever gonna fall on the Earth reaches 1000 watts per m2 maximum. Doesn't matter how good your panels are, 1000 watts per m2 is the hard limit.

I personally believe the future will be batteries for small vehicles, overhead lines for trains and some kind of liquid fuel that gives the necessary energy density for aircraft and heavy vehicles.

Just feeding the potential electricity demand for the developing world could be 10,000 GW. That is a heck of a lot of wind turbines in anyones book. I believe the UK should begin a national plan for infrastructure reinvigoration and get to grips with building the Severn barrage.


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## Marve (Jul 5, 2013)

So Tesla smashed it out of the park with a fabulous set of results for their quarterly earnings. $312mln profit for the quarter takes the headlines but there is so much more positive in all of the underlying data as well.

This is an interesting piece worth reading that was published before the results last night. It is written by a firm who were short Tesla stock and are even suing them. If they have changed their opinion of it now, it is a clear sign that others need to and will follow suit.

https://citronresearch.com/wp-conte...I2CuSVYK0j5y5oy1L0gECIeOVwKEi3R2oI0P_n5XAJyWs


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## andy665 (Nov 1, 2005)

Marve said:


> So Tesla smashed it out of the park with a fabulous set of results for their quarterly earnings. $312mln profit for the quarter takes the headlines but there is so much more positive in all of the underlying data as well.
> 
> This is an interesting piece worth reading that was published before the results last night. It is written by a firm who were short Tesla stock and are even suing them. If they have changed their opinion of it now, it is a clear sign that others need to and will follow suit.
> 
> https://citronresearch.com/wp-conte...I2CuSVYK0j5y5oy1L0gECIeOVwKEi3R2oI0P_n5XAJyWs


I think the phrase "One swallow does not make a Summer" might apply here


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## Marve (Jul 5, 2013)

andy665 said:


> I think the phrase "One swallow does not make a Summer" might apply here


And if you think this was just a one off good quarter and they will revert to making losses going forward then you don't understand the model and the progression of the company at all. Which is fine, this is a car cleaning forum, not a Stock trading forum. Rest assured though, this is my day job and I stand behind my support of the financial success of this company.


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## *Das* (Aug 9, 2010)

My mate has a Smart Four Four Electric, but his idea of risking it distance wise is to his sons house 42 miles away.... Then there is the biggest issue out there. Charging. Now its fine if you live on a new build with a driveway, but I dont. The issue I have is I live in a Council estate with rows of terraced houses running at 90 degrees to the parking bays. My house is approximately 8m from where I usually park my car. There is a path, then a wide grass verge, so its pretty much impossible for me to charge an Electric car, even if I wanted too. No way I could leave a cable lying across a path due to litigation from people tripping over it, even if I could I can only imagine that either you'd come out most mornings to find the cable had been disconnected or the cable stolen by Neds/Pikeys. I think this is going to be the major flaw for Electric cars, especially for people without the ability to charge at home. Ive heard about contact less charging, a la charging your smart phone, but who is going to pay to dig up all the streets and fit the, literally, millions of chargers needed for that?
Another charging issue Ive seen, especially on Youtube, is that chargers dont work, or its the wrong connector.
To me at the moment, unless you've got a driveway or are only town driving, Hybrids seem the way forward. My work has over 350 spaces, yet not one Electric charge point, and I work for a dept of the civil service. Mind you there is only one Electric car as of yet.


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## percymon (Jun 27, 2007)

Well everytime i charge up with Ecotricity I can only admire the rows of lovely Tesla chargers, outnumbering Ecotricity ten fold - i've never seen more than three teslas charging at any one time, despite typically 15-20 chargers. 

They have excellent driving range, and the most chargers on the main highways - overkill perhaps but you'll never see a Tesla driver waiting for another car to finish.


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## andy665 (Nov 1, 2005)

Marve said:


> And if you think this was just a one off good quarter and they will revert to making losses going forward then you don't understand the model and the progression of the company at all. Which is fine, this is a car cleaning forum, not a Stock trading forum. Rest assured though, this is my day job and I stand behind my support of the financial success of this company.


I have spent over 25 years in automotive with manufacturers - Tesla may well survive but not as a major automotive manufacturer


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## mar00 (Jun 24, 2018)

percymon said:


> Well everytime i charge up with Ecotricity I can only admire the rows of lovely Tesla chargers, outnumbering Ecotricity ten fold - i've never seen more than three teslas charging at any one time, despite typically 15-20 chargers.
> 
> They have excellent driving range, and the most chargers on the main highways - overkill perhaps but you'll never see a Tesla driver waiting for another car to finish.


what does that say, maybe people not driven by ego and marketing lies don't by them ?, if they were as successful as they like people to believe there would be ques,


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## SuperchargedLlama (Apr 25, 2008)

I have to admit that I haven't read every single post in the thread so I apologise if I'm duplicating stuff here but based on what I've read here and in press.

Tesla's motors are by far and away the most efficient and flexible on the market, and their battery packs far exceed most others too, but there's still lots more room for improvement. The general feeling seems to be that the biggest gains in range will be from battery tech improving (and that graphene is largely expected to be the breakthrough tech for it).

Something that I didn't think about until the other day is that I rarely see electic cars with solar cell roofs (probably because of cost vs efficiency?), my mates Prius had one of these and it gave him just enough juice to pre-warm or cool the car (plus it helped condition the batteries).

I think (and I bet this is actually what Tesla are gambling on) is that a universal standard is accepted and it's theirs, so they get all the monies from patent licensing.


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## SuperchargedLlama (Apr 25, 2008)

andy665 said:


> I have spent over 25 years in automotive with manufacturers - Tesla may well survive but not as a major automotive manufacturer


You'll enjoy and appreciate this:


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## Derekh929 (Aug 28, 2011)

Marve said:


> And if you think this was just a one off good quarter and they will revert to making losses going forward then you don't understand the model and the progression of the company at all. Which is fine, this is a car cleaning forum, not a Stock trading forum. Rest assured though, this is my day job and I stand behind my support of the financial success of this company.


It seems some more smoke and mirrors

https://www.motorauthority.com/news...71lumYk49GQXAYLfY0QqD7MtFeD05ZXxtgvtieY0MX2HQ

Would you invest your own hard earned into Tesla or another company with a history of transparency and steady ship on board with history of value to share holders?


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## ollienoclue (Jan 30, 2017)

I still would not trust Musk with my money. An innovative man, don't get me wrong; but inventing new ideas successfully is not the same as developing them into a marketable product that will sell.

As I have said before, Tesla might be ahead of the game, but they have minimal car manufacture experience. Other companies have been making cars for decades. These are hesitant to react because they have millions of pounds worth of production facilities stuck making internal combustion engines. Tesla have none of that. Any monkey can be the first to climb to the top of the mountain if they have less baggage than everyone else.

I think within 2-3 years you will get mainstream electric versions of cars like the Golf, Megane or Focus that will be similarly capable compared a Tesla 3 but critically; they will be cheaper to buy and backed by a manufacturer that knows how to design and make cars. Once that occurs and these companies have volume production ready, who is going to honestly shell out 35K for a Tesla model 3?

The same is true of the Tesla S. As others have said, for your very high initial outlay, all you really get is an electric drivetrain and battery. If the car was running a petrol V8 instead, could you honestly see yourself putting 80K+ into the car? That is Jag XJ/S class money, cars which obviously have to serve up a lot for your cash.

Although I must confess I have not researched it heavily, I do not believe Tesla have done any massive cutting edge electric motor or battery research themselves, these are mature technologies today and massive investments will be required to make gains in these fields. Does Tesla own any innovative IP in this field? If not, what actual advantage do they hold? They have built a large battery factory and a few large car factories. That hardly strikes me as a monumental achievement nobody else has completed?


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## Andy from Sandy (May 6, 2011)

> who is going to pay to dig up all the streets and fit the, literally, millions of chargers needed for that?


Every single tax payer as usual.

I think I saw somewhere that charging points would be put on street lighting poles but your thoughts on finding the cable gone was my first thought as well.


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## DLGWRX02 (Apr 6, 2010)

Andy from Sandy said:


> Every single tax payer as usual.
> 
> I think I saw somewhere that charging points would be put on street lighting poles but your thoughts on finding the cable gone was my first thought as well.


If it's the normal type 2 socket then this locks soon as it plugs into the car and only way to release it is with the key fob or get into the car and press the release button, but I think you need ignition on to release it aswell. So chances of a cable being stolen very slim, more likely loose it from someone breaking into your car when it's nit plugged in, as I bet nearly every EV on the road carries its cables in the boot.


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## ollienoclue (Jan 30, 2017)

The costs of installing cables are chickenfeed compared to meeting the emissions regulations on a modern vehicle.

People who are vehemently anti-electric cars, good luck to you. I have no continued desire to regularly handle a liquid fuel that contains carcinogens and stinks to high heaven any longer. I would also love a vehicle that has no cambelt, no engine oil or filters, virtually no transmission or clutch and far fewer moving parts.

If the thing has enough range to get me to work and back, what else do I really need? About the only thing I will miss is the ability to start a grunty petrol engined car first thing in winter and have it toasty warm in moments, although I guess you could have on-board cabin heaters that will defreeze a car using mains electric, after which you unplug it and drive away.

It is surely the most exciting thing to happen to car owners probably ever?

No more petrol stations, just recharge from the comfort of your own home overnight. I'm sold.


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## Andy from Sandy (May 6, 2011)

I too look forward to the day when electric takes over from petrol but with manufacturers being subsidised by tax payers money they have got to drop by around £5000 to at least be in the ball park from where we are now.


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## kh904 (Dec 18, 2006)

The idea of electric vehicles sound good, but the practicality issues of charging points, distance per charge, time to charge etc must really need to be addressed first.

Also it's fine if EV owners have homes with driveways where they can park and charge overnight, but the majority of homes are high rise flats/apartments with inadequet parking provision - how are they supposed to charge?


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## Andy from Sandy (May 6, 2011)

Rest assured history will repeat itself...

£!00 to £200 million will be spent on advisors looking for a solution.

Companies will be chosen who are "known" to Civil Servants or MPs.

Costs will escalate at an alarming rate but it will too late and the tax payer will not get value for money yet again.

https://news.sky.com/story/stagecoa...nto-lorry-upon-launch-of-new-service-11535885

This was a £15 million project to test the water for train trams. It cost £75 million for what is supposed to be a 2 year study.


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## Gas head (May 28, 2010)

I seem to remember we have an energy crisis in terms of electricity generation?

its not just the power generation that could be an issue, in the last couple of years I was involved in a new a development in Rugby, western power bought a plot of land to build a new substation for a few million quid, this was to enable an adjoined housing development, they said there was no real capacity left in the area even with the new sub (sure this is not the only town on its knees with supply), I think I would like to be assured of electric supply and range before I considered an electric car.


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## crash486 (Apr 6, 2015)

You're light years ahead of Australia. Our politicians don't believe in climate change or electric vehicles. The citizens do however. 
"Australia now has the highest penetration of residential rooftop PV of any country in the world, with the technology having been installed on one in five freestanding or semi-detached homes. In the market-leading states of Queensland and South Australia this ratio is about one in three, and Western Australia is not far behind, with one in four having PV."

So we have plenty of PV but no electric vehicles as there are no tax incentives or disincentives for ICE vehicles.

If 20% of new vehicle sales were electric it would take 30 years to replace the current 18.8 million ICE vehicles. 1 million electric vehicles over 5 years would only add 1.3% demand to the grid.

Only 2400 electric vehicles sold in Australia last year.



crash486


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## ollienoclue (Jan 30, 2017)

If you create the additional demand for electricity, the money will soon be found to extend and enhance the network and add in additional capacity, there is no concern in that. If you can buy wholesale electricity for barely £45 per megawatt hour and flog it to the customer for £120 then you can't really go wrong.

Given that the bulk of the additional demand from charging cars will be during the off peak hours, the cars connected to the grid might actually make the system a lot easier to manage- currently the UK will swing from near 45 GW peak capacity to barely 20 GW overnight. You can see a lot of the UKs generation and demand data on this really nifty website:

https://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk

You will notice a heck of a lot of gas is being burned to make electricity most times of the day, coal is still in the runnings but there is no longer any oil gauge- they finally stopped that as an idea, I think oil became too expensive to bother with in the face of cheap gas.

Our ageing reactor fleet is still churning out the goods but most of them are due to be retired by 2030.

The scale of all this needs to be considered, if electric cars become mainstream, you are saying the national grid will have to adopt the same scale as the fossil fuel industry today. The UK imports about 70 million tonnes of oil a year. That is a heck of a lot of energy.


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## Andy from Sandy (May 6, 2011)

> if electric cars become mainstream


Based on current government thinking it will be when not if but anyway, once they do become mainstream off peak electricity will be a thing of the past and it will no doubt attract a tax to cover the huge revenues lost from petrol and diesel.


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## ollienoclue (Jan 30, 2017)

Andy from Sandy said:


> Based on current government thinking it will be when not if but anyway, once they do become mainstream off peak electricity will be a thing of the past and it will no doubt attract a tax to cover the huge revenues lost from petrol and diesel.


Oh absolutely, there will be additional taxation as a feature of life in future, for certain. I hope they get to grips with corporation tax as well. For too long it has been allowed to slip. If the country wants to actually get on an improve in future I think a realistic overhaul of taxation is required.

That said, the economic benefits of not spending billions of pounds on (largely imported) fossil fuels will be very tangible I am sure. I am sure the cost of that 70 million tonnes of oil every year could build a fair few Hinkley or Sizewell C.


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## SuperchargedLlama (Apr 25, 2008)

@Ollienoclue - you mentioned in a previous post about wondering what advances Tesla had made with regards to batteries and motors, I linked to this video in a post a few before but you may not have seen it: http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showpost.php?p=5507615&postcount=68

Does answer those two questions at least.

the other points you make with regards to importing all that oil definitely strike a chord with me. I suspect the issue is to do with the oil companies lobbying politicians and the press to make alternative energy seem far less appealing. To make the changes we really need will require a comprehensive cultural change as a nation (and globally too - it's a massive ask). Interestingly a lot of Scandi countries are well ahead of the curve so hopefully it'll spread through Europe.

I like the look of Elon Musk's other company, Solar City, who produced solar roof tiles. I know there's a massive inefficiency in solar cells at the moment (but they are improving). Robert Llewelyn's series on YouTube (Fully Charged) shows him running his car (a Leaf I think, can't remember now) almost exclusively from solar energy in the summer months. Imagine what that could be like in Australia or California?

The biggest problem still seems to come back to energy storage, and the horrendous impact Lithium mining has on landscape (visually as well as physically - battery tech is the thing that I feel needs to improve beyond everything else. Some sort of "green" battery solution (I'm not sure if it's possible, but at least using synthetic compounds like Graphene would mean the materials could at least be produced in a lab from carbon) with improved capacity.


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## Andy from Sandy (May 6, 2011)

I have been flying electric rc model helicopters for many years now. The batteries are lithium polymer.

Modellers are at the end of the chain compared to the car companies but it does feed through.

We have been waiting for a step change in weight vs energy for around 10 years and still waiting. The improvements have only been small as pack sizes, weight and capacity have remained the same in all that time.

The only slight improvement has been the amount of current that can be drawn.


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## SuperchargedLlama (Apr 25, 2008)

Andy from Sandy said:


> I have been flying electric rc model helicopters for many years now. The batteries are lithium polymer.
> 
> Modellers are at the end of the chain compared to the car companies but it does feed through.
> 
> ...


Yeah it really is going to take something significant to replace the lithium element isn't it?

I was kinda surprised Hydrogen fuel cells didn't get more traction.


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## ollienoclue (Jan 30, 2017)

Mother-Goose said:


> @Ollienoclue - you mentioned in a previous post about wondering what advances Tesla had made with regards to batteries and motors, I linked to this video in a post a few before but you may not have seen it: http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showpost.php?p=5507615&postcount=68
> 
> Does answer those two questions at least.
> 
> ...


I can't seem to get that video in your link to play, doesn't like my country apparently.

Lithium mining- yeah it doesn't look pretty but no mining does and overall its a hell of a lot kinder to planet Earth than the fossil fuel industry.


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## SuperchargedLlama (Apr 25, 2008)

ollienoclue said:


> I can't seem to get that video in your link to play, doesn't like my country apparently.
> 
> Lithium mining- yeah it doesn't look pretty but no mining does and overall its a hell of a lot kinder to planet Earth than the fossil fuel industry.


Ah that's a shame - it's a bloomberg video with a company that buys new cars and tears them down, works out how they are built and then sells this knowledge to other car manufacturers.

They said Tesla are miles ahead of the competition with the battery packs and the motors, but in terms of actual car manufacturing, way behind.

An example was the wheel arch - for a lot of traditional auto-manufacturers this could be made up of between 1 and 3 pressed pieces. The Model 3 had nine elements to it, for no beneficial reason. There may have been a reduced tooling cost in creating the panel perhaps, but the assembly would far out weigh that.

In the motors it appeared they were using neodymium magnets, glued together to get more performance for less mass - stuff like that.


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## DLGWRX02 (Apr 6, 2010)

ollienoclue said:


> If the thing has enough range to get me to work and back, what else do I really need? About the only thing I will miss is the ability to start a grunty petrol engined car first thing in winter and have it toasty warm in moments, although I guess you could have on-board cabin heaters that will defreeze a car using mains electric, after which you unplug it and drive away.
> 
> It is surely the most exciting thing to happen to car owners probably ever?
> 
> No more petrol stations, just recharge from the comfort of your own home overnight. I'm sold.


All of the above.lol. This morning 1c outside and a bit of frost, so opened up my EV app, turned on my heaters to 30c, car was plugged in by the time I went outside and unplugged to go to work, inside a very toasty 30c no frost and all demisted nicely.


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## ollienoclue (Jan 30, 2017)

DLGWRX02 said:


> All of the above.lol. This morning 1c outside and a bit of frost, so opened up my EV app, turned on my heaters to 30c, car was plugged in by the time I went outside and unplugged to go to work, inside a very toasty 30c no frost and all demisted nicely.


Which one do you have? I quite like the idea of a hybrid Lexus at the moment.


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## DLGWRX02 (Apr 6, 2010)

ollienoclue said:


> Which one do you have? I quite like the idea of a hybrid Lexus at the moment.


As in which car or App? 
<- (see avatar) 2018 Nissan Leaf, use You+ Nissan App to get remote info on the car from anywhere.


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## blurb (Feb 13, 2008)

ollienoclue said:


> Which one do you have? I quite like the idea of a hybrid Lexus at the moment.


Don't get me started on the "self-charging" Lexus hybrids!


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## ollienoclue (Jan 30, 2017)

blurb said:


> Don't get me started on the "self-charging" Lexus hybrids!


Been reading about them, apparently they aren't that hot.

The only reason I would use a hybrid is if I was commuting long distance and then needed battery to enter a congestion zone etc. I guess for some people, on the right routes and with the right driving style they probably work well.


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