# Lets have a game of guess the lsp



## msb (Dec 20, 2009)

Lets see how good the eyes are when it comes to deciding what lsp this is after a play today on the brother in laws mint MR2

Here is some photos and feel free to post your replies and thoughts, the answer will be revealed later on tomorrow:thumb:


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## R0B (Aug 27, 2010)

none !


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## JasonH20URF (Mar 30, 2011)

Auto finesse illusion


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## msb (Dec 20, 2009)

Good guesses but please choose in the poll:thumb:


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## retroruss (Apr 24, 2010)

i will guess Quality Wax ********** Wax ******* Glaze i will tell you why tomorrow after you give the answer


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## Daveskater (Jan 13, 2012)

I went for Touch Coat. Almost went with Abyss but it seems to have the Tough Coat shine about it to me. Either way I think it's a sealant


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## great gonzo (Nov 4, 2010)

I can't see how anyone could tell????


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## Moggytom (Dec 28, 2011)

********** !


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## Trip tdi (Sep 3, 2008)

Something else, a Pound shop wax for 99 P :thumb:


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## RDB85 (Dec 28, 2011)

What did you use before applying the lsp?


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## WashMitt (May 27, 2010)

Abyss without doubt!!


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## Jammy J (May 5, 2012)

great gonzo said:


> I can't see how anyone could tell????


My thoughts exactly :thumb: :lol:


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## Dave KG (Feb 23, 2006)

Jammy J said:


> My thoughts exactly :thumb: :lol:


Indeed, I've seen cars with no LSP at all look like that in pictures with that lighting  But for fun, I'll have a guess


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## RDB85 (Dec 28, 2011)

A wash and some QD


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## Ewald (Dec 12, 2010)

It doesn't look to me like there is no LSP on this paint. I think there's a sealant there, not a wax. Even though the ********** waxes are, in my view, close in look to sealants, I think I can rule the ******* Glaze out.

Since this poll wouldn't make much sense when the LSP is something "other" than the ones listed, I'm ruling the last option out.

The remaining Abyss, Ceramishield, and Though Coat are, on the photos that I compiled, at least, very close in look. I find it hard to see which one it is. Perhaps Abyss is slightly more reflective than the one in this thread. Though Coat seems to give a slightly rounder effect. So, I went with Ceramishield, when I voted yesterday. But, it could be any of these three.


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## sistersvisions (Jul 28, 2010)

ive gone for something else....********** Wax would have been to easy a guess.


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## Gleammachine (Sep 8, 2007)

I would go for "other" and say this new to the market product-

"AM I PHYSIC" by www.howthehellshouldIknow.com


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## msb (Dec 20, 2009)

Thanks for all replies the car definatley has a product on, and prep wise was given a wipe down with ipa to remove what was left of the old product, that was all as the paint was pretty good and well looked after


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## MAUI (Feb 1, 2008)

There is no way to tell by looking at a photo much less with the naked eye.


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## msb (Dec 20, 2009)

MAUI said:


> There is no way to tell by looking at a photo much less with the naked eye.


Its a bit of fun,don't take it to seriously:wave:


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## MAUI (Feb 1, 2008)

msb said:


> Its a bit of fun,don't take it to seriously:wave:


I'm not and that's why I voted.


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## msb (Dec 20, 2009)

MAUI said:


> I'm not and that's why I voted.


Fair enough some will though:thumb:


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## spence (Nov 24, 2011)

I went tough coat


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## millns84 (Jul 5, 2009)

I went for the ********** wax. Not because of the look, because I'm not sure you could tell the difference that well through pictures and I've only seen Toughcoat in the flesh out of those LSP's, but also because I know you love ********** wax so are more likely to use it - Psychological analysis right there!

If I was to comment on the reflections, I'd say possibly a nuba wax as it looks quite wet for silver. I could just be over analysing though...


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## msb (Dec 20, 2009)

millns84 said:


> I went for the ********** wax. Not because of the look, because I'm not sure you could tell the difference that well through pictures and I've only seen Toughcoat in the flesh out of those LSP's, but also because I know you love ********** wax so are more likely to use it - Psychological analysis right there!
> 
> If I was to comment on the reflections, I'd say possibly a nuba wax as it looks quite wet for silver. I could just be over analysing though...


You may well be over analysing, i will post up results later:thumb:

You are right in the sense that generally i do favor wax, but i do have all products mentioned bar one so it really could be any of them,or something completely different


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## -Raven- (Aug 26, 2010)

I'll go the ceramishield. :thumb:


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## Trip tdi (Sep 3, 2008)

Other, the new Mer polish...


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## domandmel (Mar 16, 2012)

ill go other, as it may well be some other new product or something totally random!


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## durmz (Nov 2, 2010)

Im on tapatalk so can't see the poll but I'm with tough coat


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## Godderz23 (Jul 19, 2010)

T-Cut?


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## GMToyota (Mar 14, 2010)

It looks deep, glassy, wet, reflective, mirrorlike.. so I chose 'something else' since I have no idea how I would be able to see which of the other 4s it would be. 

Nice MR2 though!


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## msb (Dec 20, 2009)

Godderz23 said:


> T-Cut?


Er no


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## msb (Dec 20, 2009)

Results time and well done to all those who voted for......................................

********** Wax ******* Glaze,Although i wonder how many voted knowing how smitten i am on this product anyhow we are constantly being told wax doesn't work well on silver and this for me completely blows that myth out of the water, thanks for all that participated and all comments welcome:thumb:


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## Junior Bear (Sep 2, 2008)

I reckon it's abyss


Edit: I reckon it's ********** wax


Lol


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## millns84 (Jul 5, 2009)

Maybe I wasn't over analysing then 

Just for me, the bonnet shot looked wet rather than a bit sterile which I think sealants bring out.

But as for wax on light colours, here's one of mine with HD wax on it:


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## msb (Dec 20, 2009)

Not over analysing but i suspect some guessed wax purely as they know i love the ******* glaze, biggest point i was making is everyone spouts off whats right and wrong and for me detailing wise there is no right and wrong its all experimentation and some of the best finishes i've achieved on silver have been with wax, not knocking sealants but at the end of the day theres more than one way to achieve the desired result


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## retroruss (Apr 24, 2010)

msb said:


> i suspect some guessed wax purely as they know i love the ******* glaze,


yes too easy :lol:


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## Ewald (Dec 12, 2010)

msb said:


> ...anyhow we are constantly being told wax doesn't work well on silver and this for me completely blows that myth out of the water...


Or perhaps this particular wax looks quite similar to a sealant.


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## MAUI (Feb 1, 2008)

Ewald said:


> Or perhaps this particular wax looks quite similar to a sealant.


:speechles:thumb:


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## Trip tdi (Sep 3, 2008)

millns84 said:


> Maybe I wasn't over analysing then
> 
> Just for me, the bonnet shot looked wet rather than a bit sterile which I think sealants bring out.
> 
> But as for wax on light colours, here's one of mine with HD wax on it:


Now that is what you call reflections, that is looking super Razor sharp :thumb:

HD is very a underrated product just like collinite 476; great reflection's Millns not easy task to capture and grasp on lighter colours, you have top reflections there, very impressive :thumb:


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## Dave KG (Feb 23, 2006)

Trip tdi said:


> Now that is what you call reflections, that is looking super Razor sharp :thumb:
> 
> HD is very a underrated product just like collinite 476; great reflection's Millns not easy task to capture and grasp on lighter colours, you have top reflections there, very impressive :thumb:


Any reflection will look razor sharp at that angle, especially where the paint is in the shade reflecting an image lit brightly by the sun - makes for excellent contrast viewed at the ideal angle, simple Physics.


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## millns84 (Jul 5, 2009)

Dave KG said:


> Any reflection will look razor sharp at that angle, especially where the paint is in the shade reflecting an image lit brightly by the sun - makes for excellent contrast viewed at the ideal angle, simple Physics.


Well it was taken around a month after getting it 98-99% swirl free, but cheers anyway Dave :lol:


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## Dave KG (Feb 23, 2006)

millns84 said:


> Well it was taken around a month after getting it 98-99% swirl free, but cheers anyway Dave :lol:


That's the thing though, these photos don't really show any of the hard work that goes into it - the finish will look stunning, but a really naff finish will also look great in these conditions. Shine a light directly at your finish, get the sun reflecting off it and that's when it will really stand out :thumb:


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## GMToyota (Mar 14, 2010)

Ewald said:


> Or perhaps this particular wax looks quite similar to a sealant.


Or perhaps the difference between LSPs in general are really difficult to notice. Even for experienced detailers?

From **********:
"The ******* glaze has been developed with the Show car and Concours Car owners in mind". 
"******* has the following over Number One.......
1, *Wetter* looking finish on well prepared paint as its the dedicated show wax we sell."

Remember, most of the 'looks' comes from the prep. An LSP can only add a little bit extra to what's there. Using a carnauba wax that's specifcally made to be 'wet' onto a silver paint doesn't automatically make that silver paint wet. (Even if the MR2 is in mint condition).


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## -Raven- (Aug 26, 2010)

msb said:


> Results time and well done to all those who voted for......................................
> 
> ********** Wax ******* Glaze,Although i wonder how many voted knowing how smitten i am on this product anyhow we are constantly being told wax doesn't work well on silver and this for me completely blows that myth out of the water, thanks for all that participated and all comments welcome:thumb:


Haha! I was going to say *******, but you threw me off with the IPA comment! I thought I was being smart lol! :lol:


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## Ewald (Dec 12, 2010)

GMToyota said:


> Or perhaps the difference between LSPs in general are really difficult to notice. Even for experienced detailers?


Depends on the person, whether it's real life or a photo, lighting, whether car has round shapes.



> From **********:
> "The ******* glaze has been developed with the Show car and Concours Car owners in mind".
> "******* has the following over Number One.......
> 1, *Wetter* looking finish on well prepared paint as its the dedicated show wax we sell."


********** may say that, I think differently. I've collected as many photos from cars with various ********** waxes as I could. They're mostly well lighted, on cars with lots of round shapes, so I should be able to see differences. But, I hardly see any. The differences in look between the various Swissvax waxes, for example, are much bigger.

Also, the Swissvax waxes have put more into them in terms of looks. It seems as if all ********** waxes look almost like sealants. My guess is that that's due to ********** putting Candelilla wax into all of them. From my own wax making experiments, I found that this is what Candelilla does. They're not unlike Dodo Juice Hard Candy, which is made with Candelilla.



> Remember, most of the 'looks' comes from the prep.


I don't remember that, actually. I suppose I look at different aspects of shine than those that say that "it's all in the prep." As far as I'm concerned, "prep" is "preparation for LSP." The prep is there to help the LSP shine, so to speak.


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## -Raven- (Aug 26, 2010)

Why are you looking for differences in photographs? You loose soooooo much detail in a photograph, it's not funny! Especially when the majority of us resize our pictures to a few k in size, rather than a few mb.


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## -Raven- (Aug 26, 2010)

Can you see a difference in detail in these two pics?

Untouched:









Resized for web:


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## DJ X-Ray (Sep 2, 2012)

Interesting that the majority thought it was a sealant.Nice little car though.


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## Ewald (Dec 12, 2010)

-Raven- said:


> Can you see a difference in detail in these two pics?


Sure I can. I've studied photography at an art academy, I know pretty well what I see.

The subtle changes in shine caused by the various refractive indexes present in a thin layer of LSP are still there in resized photos. I think that seeing with two eyes, instead of having to look through the one eye of a camera, actually makes more of a difference than the amount of detail.


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## DJ X-Ray (Sep 2, 2012)

Was you surprised it was a wax ewald?


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## Ewald (Dec 12, 2010)

Yes, I didn't expect it to be a wax.


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## GMToyota (Mar 14, 2010)

That's funny, my major was photography at the Willem De Kooning art academy of Rotterdam. I finished in 2007 and since then have been freelancing next to my full time job. I mainly do studio work, business events (presentations, venues, fashion shows) and the occasional wedding (but those often take too long of preparation). 

My photographic eye does see difference, but like most here, not enough to distinguish an LSP. Even you were wrong, while you chose 3 out of 4 options.. .


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## Ewald (Dec 12, 2010)

Sure, I didn't see which LSP it was. I'm certainly not claiming that I can distinguish any LSP, especially on photos.

When I make my own waxes, the first thing I do when a new experiment has cooled down, is put it on a painted cylindrical object I use for testing. I then check with the reflections of the sky what the look is. There's the "soft focus" effect on the reflections, and there's the illusion of the size that the object gets. Whether I like what I see here, determines whether I continue improving on a specific recipe.

The illusion of the different size is one aspect of what an LSP does to the look. It's more complicated than just a different size, actually there's a range of sizes. It's caused by changed reflection angles, as a result of having a range of refractive indexes (change in angles according to Snellius' Law).

(I've studied at the AKI in Enschede, over 20 years ago. I didn't major, actually.)


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## DJ X-Ray (Sep 2, 2012)

Was you surprised it was a wax raven?


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## msb (Dec 20, 2009)

Thanks for the feedback guys, i'm suprised more didn't vote for wax, its pretty common knowledge i'm a huge wax fan, but the ******* is the best looks wax i've tried and having only used on dark colours the experiment for myself and the cars owner was to see if the wax changed or improved the looks being as its sold as a product mainly focused on looks, we both felt it did and were quite honestly stunned with the results, this cars had many different products tried on it from zaino to ********** wax and allsorts inbetween but this from a looks point of view is a winner, the car looks good in the photos but they definatley don't do it justice in the flesh its amazing,once again thanks for participating everyone:thumb:


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## -Raven- (Aug 26, 2010)

DJ.X-Ray said:


> Was you surprised it was a wax raven?


Did you read my comment?


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## john90 (Nov 22, 2012)

msb said:


> Thanks for the feedback guys, i'm suprised more didn't vote for wax, its pretty common knowledge i'm a huge wax fan, but the ******* is the best looks wax i've tried and having only used on dark colours the experiment for myself and the cars owner was to see if the wax changed or improved the looks being as its sold as a product mainly focused on looks, we both felt it did and were quite honestly stunned with the results, this cars had many different products tried on it from zaino to ********** wax and allsorts inbetween but this from a looks point of view is a winner, the car looks good in the photos but they definatley don't do it justice in the flesh its amazing,once again thanks for participating everyone:thumb:


Nice work Mark, I'm not surprised you liked the result though, I've see a silver/grey Merc coupe done in ********** '89' wax by Matt @ SystemClenz and the finished result was very impressive (didnt see the before).


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## Ewald (Dec 12, 2010)

msb, thanks for mentioning that the car looks better with the ******* wax than with other products.


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## msb (Dec 20, 2009)

Ewald said:


> msb, thanks for mentioning that the car looks better with the ******* wax than with other products.


Sorry but what are you getting at


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## Ewald (Dec 12, 2010)

Well, on photos I don't see much difference between cars with ******* and with sealants. So, I think it's interesting to hear that you two did find the ******* looked better. I was acknowledging your mentioning it.


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## msb (Dec 20, 2009)

Ewald said:


> Well, on photos I don't see much difference between cars with ******* and with sealants. So, I think it's interesting to hear that you two did find the ******* looked better. I was acknowledging your mentioning it.


Yeah as mentioned by others it's very difficult to tell on photo's plus they can make a crap car look great and vice a versa, but ******* has lifted the finish on every car i've used it on with a noticeable improvement in depth and gloss:thumb:


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## Dave KG (Feb 23, 2006)

Ewald said:


> Sure I can. I've studied photography at an art academy, I know pretty well what I see.
> 
> The subtle changes in shine caused by the various refractive indexes present in a thin layer of LSP are still there in resized photos. I think that seeing with two eyes, instead of having to look through the one eye of a camera, actually makes more of a difference than the amount of detail.


Do you happen to know the refractive index of a wax coating in comparison to the clearcoat on which it sits? Would be interested to know this. And whether this index is constant through the layer. Assuming a layer thickness of circa 20 um, and a typical light wavelength of a few hundred nm then the layer should in theory have a subtle effect if the index difference is large enough.


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## Junior Bear (Sep 2, 2008)

I like it when things get Technical!


Learn things all the time on this site


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## Ewald (Dec 12, 2010)

I would have to look up the refractive index of the clearcoat, for which I don't have time at the moment. It would indeed be interesting to know. It's probably different for various clearcoat paints. I would expect harder paints to have a higher refractive index.

Wax ingredients have refractive indexes between 1.420 and 1.480 (I have compiled these in a list). Carnauba for example 1.467-1.472, beeswax 1.440-1.449, coconut oil 1.4485-1.4495.

I would expect the wax layer to have a range of refractive indexes within the above range, however it's hard to be sure. I believe that the carnauba makes a crystalline structure where other ingredients sit in, and this might cause refractive indexes to change, as these are about how dense a material is.

I have in the past tried to measure the refractive index of wax with an instrument, however the instrument required a layer of a larger thickness than wax layers are, so I returned it to where I bought it.


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## TopSport+ (Jul 22, 2012)

**********


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## Lowiepete (Mar 29, 2009)

msb said:


> ...anyhow we are constantly being told wax doesn't work well on silver and this for me completely blows that myth out of the water


Well, you're not the only one who chases that dream, and in my experience
it's by no means a myth! As long as can you get the paint clean, there are 
plenty of waxes and sealant/wax combos that will achieve this, without 
breaking the bank. Probably the best known here will be the FK Pink Wax, 
but others like Harlys and R222 work equally well, though may not last quite
as long. In one test I found that CG Blacklight managed to survive 5 months 
of a really wet summer!

Even a well neglected 8 year old farm workhorse from deepest Cumbria can
be made to look good!

Here's a taster pic...









Regards,
Steve


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## Sirmally2 (Feb 28, 2011)

msb said:


> Results time and well done to all those who voted for......................................
> 
> ********** Wax ******* Glaze,Although i wonder how many voted knowing how smitten i am on this product anyhow we are constantly being told wax doesn't work well on silver and this for me completely blows that myth out of the water, thanks for all that participated and all comments welcome:thumb:


I voted "something else" as if i seal my old mans silver car its very glassy. This looked warm, more so with the setting sun


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## DJ X-Ray (Sep 2, 2012)

As you said mark it's just a bit of fun,but it was interesting to hear peoples analysis and things not quite working out.I think a lot of it's due to seeing a silver car and assuming it's a sealant of somesort.Very difficult to guess an lsp,unless your the person applying it lol well done anyway,very revealing.


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## Ewald (Dec 12, 2010)

Dave KG said:


> Do you happen to know the refractive index of a wax coating in comparison to the clearcoat on which it sits?


I have been searching for numbers for clearcoat. I haven't found specifics, yet. But in this PDF, I found this list:

Phenolic resins 1.55-1.68
Malamine resins 1.55-1.68
Urea-formaldehyde resins 1.55-1.60
Alkyd resins 1.50-1.60
Natural resins 1.50-1.55

So, it seems that a refractive index of around 1.55 is to be expected for paints in general.


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## Guitarjon (Jul 13, 2012)

I voted tough coat, not sure why I didn't vote the ********** though as I know you are a fan. I knew it wasn't the abyss as you havnt mention anything about it recently.


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## msb (Dec 20, 2009)

Never really used autobrite's stuff the only thing i have tried was ultraslick,it was ok but wasn't particularly wowed


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