# E-bay car purchase gone t##s up



## andy665 (Nov 1, 2005)

Have bought a few cars off Ebay and never had any trouble until this last one.

Saw a nice Audi 80 V6 cab in an Ebay auction - too far away to view before auction end so contacted the seller and asked lots of questions, especially about dents, scratches and general bodywork condition. Get assurances that there was one 1p size ding on o/s front arch and a tiny blemish on o/s rear wing.

Bid on the car and won it, paid £250 deposit by bank transfer (big mistake I know) and drove the 120 miles last Sunday with the balance and to collect the car. The ding was like a fist sized crater and the blemish was in fact a 2" by 2" lump of rust that had been crudely touched in and there was also rust around at least 1/2 the edge of the rear arch.

Told him there and then I was not buying and he apologised for the inconvenience and promised to refund the £250.

Now he is saying that I entered into a legally binding contract, he is getting an inspection of the areas of dispute by Audi Swansea and he is going to sue me. I'm sure the damage is easily repairable but I think the outcome rests on whether its seen as a blemish or a sodding great scab of rust.

By my reckoning he broke any contract by initially not being honest with his description so I have put a claim in via Money Claim Online this morning, the 3250 plus £25 fees and interest at £0.13 per day.

Can see this one dragging on and fully expecting him to lodge a counterclaim. In the past I'd have marked down to bad luck and let it go but this time I'm standing my ground.


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## tonz (Sep 21, 2008)

Hindsight a wonderful thing , think like you said a lengthy wait from paypal , and sure you have been told , if you didn't already know , never part with any cash until you've seen the car in the flesh , hope you get it sorted swiftly


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## justina3 (Jan 11, 2008)

aw gutted for you mate do feel for you, should have asked someone in swansea (like me) to check it out for you, anyway legaly you both have an argument however getting it into court small claims no doubt will be a nightmare and very costly if you ask for a solicitor to act for you


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## OvlovMike (Jul 19, 2011)

The advert is legally binding as much as your bid - if you entered into that contract on the description (did you get pictures?) that he gave then you are perfectly entitled to a full refund based on his breach of contract.

He'll get legal advice, and they'll tell him to give you your money back as it's not worth the effort over it. He's probably ganching because you're the only mug stupid enough to agree to buy his heap, and he'll have been trying for months.


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## andy665 (Nov 1, 2005)

I know from experience of friends that the law tends to side with the buyer (me).

Fortunately I have copies of the emails I sent him asking about the bodywork and his response - as far as I can see he hasn't got a leg to stand on - if the car had been as described it would now be sitting on my drive.

I clearly demonstrated intent to purchase by arriving at the agreed time with the balance to complete the transaction - surely the only reason I wuld not complete the purchase is if there was something wrong with the car. The person who is selling the car said that I was obviously "iffy" and clearly had no intention of buying - so that is obviously why I paid £250 deposit and made a 240 mile round trip then


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## OvlovMike (Jul 19, 2011)

Exactly. It's not like it didn't cost you anything to travel there and back, or that it didn't take any of your time.

Make sure you stick some money on top for your time and travelling, ******s like this need to be educated and then executed.


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## lobotomy (Jun 23, 2006)

The advert is legally binding but the terms have to be quantifiable to really make any odds.

If he clearly stated the only marks were a 1p sized ding then I think that's enough to claim the car was misrepresented if, when you turned up, they were *significantly* larger. Then you'll have a claim, for your deposit + probably incurred expense.

It's different if he says the car was in "great" condition and his concept of great differs to yours.


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## OvlovMike (Jul 19, 2011)

Not entirely - 'great condition' is still quantifiable in so far as a car with a 4 square inch patch of rust on the bodywork isn't 'great condition', in anyone's books. People who use this sort of 'opinion-centric' advert to try and escape this are only fooling themselves. Yes, it is easier to demonstrate matter of fact, but an opinion can still be deemed factually incorrect and still can be classed as misleading.


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## andy665 (Nov 1, 2005)

lobotomy - I know exactly what you're saying - thats why I emailed him with some very specific questions and I received some very specific answers in return. 

His exact words were "A very small dent the size of a penny (I assumed a UK penny, he is obviously familair with the penny from BongoBongo Land) on the offside front wing which has not broken the paint and a small mark on the offside rear arch. These marks are nothing but tiny blemishes"

My argument centres around the rear arch - it was a major rust scab that looked like it had been sandpapered down with 60 grade and then touched in by a partially sighted person with the shakes. He maintains that there is zero rust in that area.

He also made no mention of the rust bubbles that covered around 2/3 of the perimeter of the same area


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## lobotomy (Jun 23, 2006)

OvlovMike said:


> Not entirely - 'great condition' is still quantifiable in so far as a car with a 4 square inch patch of rust on the bodywork isn't 'great condition', in anyone's books. People who use this sort of 'opinion-centric' advert to try and escape this are only fooling themselves. Yes, it is easier to demonstrate matter of fact, but an opinion can still be deemed factually incorrect and still can be classed as misleading.


"Great" is not quantifiable... great for the age? or just in great condition? It's all in the inference.

Straight from CAB:


> *The vehicle doesn't match its description*
> If you can show that the vehicle did not match the description the seller gave you, you will have a claim against them, even if the seller believed the description to be true. It will strengthen your claim if you have written proof of the false description, for example, a newspaper advertisement. A false description which was only made verbally and not in writing will be much harder to prove, unless someone else was present who can act as a witness.
> If the seller said something about the car which proves not to be true, for example, if they said that the vehicle had a new clutch or one owner from new, you will also have a claim against them. *However, if the seller described the vehicle as in good condition, it will be more difficult to complain as the vehicle's age, make and mileage, and the price you paid all have to be taken into account.* If the seller did not say anything at all about the vehicle, you will not be able to claim against the seller.
> If the seller sold you the vehicle as having an MOT certificate when it didn't really have one, you will have a claim against the seller.
> ...


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## OvlovMike (Jul 19, 2011)

It will be more difficult, but that's what I said (have another read - easier to demonstrate matter of fact). Ultimately, great condition is just that. For a 20 year old car, decent mileage and £3000 I'd say that no matter how you dress it up, 2/3rd rotten arches, a 4 square inch hole in paint and a dent like someone's driven into it aren't 'great' condition. That 'opinion' would be demonstrated to be factually incorrect. If it was described as being in 'reasonable' condition or 'fair' condition for it's age then yes, it's more muddy and you have to demonstrate that most cars are in a better condition for it to stick in a court of law, but I'd say at a push, legally, you could stretch great condition for a 20 year old bus to a few supermarket dings, arches that are only just starting to go, and all the paint being one colour even if there's a few chips and a light scuff?


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## mattsbmw (Jul 20, 2008)

Thats real bad luck, hope you can get it sorted. Kinda shows the importance of viewing cars on ebay before buying.


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## Derbyshire-stig (Dec 22, 2010)

did u get any pics while you were there ?


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## Raife (Jul 14, 2009)

Had a similar thing a few years ago, went to buy a classic Volvo that the guy assured me was "without any faults", when I arrived he wouldn't let me drive it and he drove it, there was a flashing red warning light on the dash and he claimed he had no idea what it meant.... I explained I considered that a fault.

Fortunately i hadnt paid a deposit so as a matter of good will I paid his listing fee and walked away. He tried to get nasty but i explained I was on HIS dooorstep not my own and he would be wise to wind his neck in.


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## Keir (Aug 31, 2010)

Derbyshire-stig said:


> did u get any pics while you were there ?


This, I'm sure eBay paypal will want some pics of said damage.


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## andy665 (Nov 1, 2005)

Paypal are not involved as deposit was not paid through them, E-bay as per usual are not interested but Trading Standards are and I have already filed a claim through the Small Caims Court.

If he gets legal advice (which is what he said he is going to do) I'm pretty ceetain that they will advise that he just pays up - after all there is no way he can claim that I had no intention of buying as I drove 120 miles each way with the cash in hand - he seems to think that I had no intention of buying. Who would take 1/2 day and make a 240 mile round trip to waste a complete strangers time???


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## andy665 (Nov 1, 2005)

Just had this email from the bloke I'm in dispute with:

"Audi taken to Audi Swansea yesterday. Had estimate to repair disputed 'major corrosion'. A grand total of £130+ Vat for the repair. Told them of my issue with you and your discription of the area, they virtually wet themselves. They also reminded me that the car was only MOT'D there a matter of 14 days earlier and had passed with flying colours. The car is scheduled to have this 'major corrosion' problem sorted next Tuesday/Wednesday.
Looking back through all e mails received and written, not once has the word CORROSION been mentioned prior to viewing. I despite that an independent vehicle report will be of of any benefit to me, that's the reason I have asked Audi Swansea, a main Audi franchise, if they could compile a written condition report of the car when it's with them next week. There is a cost implication of £55 + Vat but will be added to the costs I'll be seeking to recover from you with my counter claim. I can assure you I am preparing a case and am seeking advice/evidence from where ever I can.
I am not in the slightest interested in giving you one penny of the £250 deposit back.
Let's leave a Judge decide.I am ready, willing and will be prepared I can assure you. As for your covert operation of taking photographic evidence and having your phone record our convesation -- well frankly, it's made me laugh. I look forward to seeing and hearing these in court!!
BRING IT ON.
I don't wish to be in any further dialogue with you. I'll see you in court!!
Kevin Lock."

Pretty much proves my case - at no point did the advert state that it needed a £156.00 paint repair.

The bloke is becoming deluded, the fact its got an MOT is not in dispute, never did I state it had major corrosion - my one and only issue is simply that there was no mention of the damage to the rear arch - therefore the vehicle was not as described - or am I the one who is deluded???

*EDIT* - I have just had confirmed to me that he has not taken the car to Swansea Audi, they have no record of the car being with them or any estimate produced :lol:


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## steveo3002 (Jan 30, 2006)

audi wouldnt repair and paint anyhting for £130 lol


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## dominic84 (Jan 27, 2007)

> I have just had confirmed to me that he has not taken the car to Swansea Audi, they have no record of the car being with them or any estimate produced


Sounds like a right wally - to be honest I'd be surprised if Audi wanted to have anything to do with this dispute!

Hope you get your money back, I'm pretty sure you will :thumb:


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## steveo3002 (Jan 30, 2006)

cant you pop round with some big mates and request it ?

next time ask for some decent pics of everything , any genuine seller will


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## awallacee30 (May 4, 2011)

What a tool. His e-mail only confirms that he's a complete liar. I'm sure the court isn't going to take long to reach a decision on this.

Good luck fella ! :thumb:


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## andy665 (Nov 1, 2005)

I'm sure that he thinks he is going to frighten me off - whilst no legal expert I can't see how I can lose - the judge only has to look at the bare facts:

1. I paid the requested deposit 

2. I turned up on agreed date (after travelling 120 miles) to complete the purchase with the balance in cash as requested

Why would I do that if I had no intention of buying and why would I possibly not complete the purchase if the car was as described.

If I hadn't turned up or not made contact then i believe he would have every right to retain the deposit but I clearly did turn up


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## andy665 (Nov 1, 2005)

Heres my response back to him:

"Kevin

Please advise where I once made mention of major corrosion. The fact it is MOT'd is totally irrelevant to the question of whether the vehicle was as described - the fact that you did not include in your advert the fact that it required a repair costing £130 + VAT is actually great news.


I would like to extend my gratitude to you for taking the time and trouble to confirm that the extent of the work required, I hardly think that a £156 paint repair represents the "tiny blemish" you stated it was in your email.

An overall condition report would be useful but hardly necessary - the rest of the car could be 100% as described, the simple fact is that you were misleading with your description to the damage on the o/s rear wheelarch and that is the only point I will be raising on my day in court. 

As to how the staff at the bodyshop reacted, as you have quite correctly stated, the only opinion that matters is the judges and I look forward to presenting my case with supporting facts in a calm, precise and accurate manner.

Very best regards and have a nice weekend.

Andrew Williams"


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## Lee.GTi180 (Apr 28, 2010)

Being nice to a 'shouter' completely disarms them. Throughout your emails you clearly stand in the position of power (as demonstrated by his need to introduce capitals and aggressive language). Take him to court and ride him mate, you'll win all day everyday.


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## cleancar (Sep 21, 2006)

keep us posted , watching with interest , hope you get this sorted

there are some real bell ends in this world


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## Ming (Oct 16, 2007)

Having had some dealings with the small claims courts I can offer the following bits of info.
1. Its not quick.
2. They work on the balance of probabilities which means that you, as the claimant, only need to prove 51% that you are right and you will win. this is as you can guess a country mile away from what is required in a criminal court.
3. Keep copies, digital and paper, of every bit of correspondence. also get hold of a copy of the ebay advert before it is removed. Keep an eye on ebay to see if it is relisted. If it is take copies of the advert and check for ANY changes to the one that you replied to. get copies of all his ebay feedback and as much info as possible incase he attempts to delete it.
4. Be prepared for extra costs. The small claims court can add costs of witnesses etc all of which will be born by the losing party.
5. Do not, in my opinion, be frightened to deal with it yourself. Even if lawyers get involved (in this case I think that is far from likely) as the whole idea of the court is to give the little person a voice. Its not difficult
6. I represented a friend of mine and before we got to court I 'persuaded' an insurance company to cough up a not insubstantial amount of money even though they tried to frighten us with the 'What if you lose ...' conversation.
7. I would send one final email to the vendor explaining that should the matter go to small claims court not only will you be claiming the return of the £250 but will also be claiming costs for the loss of a days work (you had to travel to collect it) and other sundry expenses. Also ask for a copy of the Audi repair report. Should you get it, if it even exists, then phone them and ask what they had quoted for. Their labour costs alone will be in the region of £100 an hour ( I had a scratch repair quoted recently by a local quality independant garage at over £1,000:00)
8. Keep a list of EVERYTHING. Time spent on letters, phone calls etc. It always looks very professional when a matter goes before a judge.
9. Call in at citizens advice and see what they can offer. (You may well have to phone up and make an appointment for this believe it or not)

Should you require any further advice feel free to PM me and i will endeavour to assist.

Good luck

Ming the Lawman


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## justina3 (Jan 11, 2008)

swansea audi doesnt have a body shop all there paint work is dealt with by sinclair gorseinon not sinclair sa1

just thought i would mention it.


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## centenary (Sep 5, 2010)

The seller sounds a right ******. sounds to me like he's trying to front you to paying up by saying he'll sue.

On a note regarding flea bay and I know its only wheeler dealers info but, brewer always says when he's bidding on a car (supposedly) that 'remember, if the car isnt as described, you are not legally bound to the deal.'

Have you checked what fleabays car sales \ purchase T&C's are? I dont think the fact that the deposit wasnt paid via fleabay \ paypal has a bearing on whether you raise a dispute with them, does it?

Good luck anyway. Too many shysters out there bulling cars up.


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## cleancar (Sep 21, 2006)

any updates ?


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## packard (Jun 8, 2009)

Ming / I did the same when a purchase went wrong, what started as £200' the courts gave me over £400 back as I documented EVERY minute I spent on it, I went in with folders of evidence all summarised on spreadsheet. Neadless to say they were impresssed as it was laid out in simple terms, copies of all paperwork etc...

You will get it back, but it won't be quick


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## joelee (Nov 28, 2009)

Would Audi not put it in writing that they have not had the car there or ask for a copy of the estimate and ask Audi to confirm they have given it out to tryt and build a stronger case for you.


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## Deano (Jul 7, 2006)

steveo3002 said:


> audi wouldnt repair and paint anyhting for £130 lol


audi dealers charge £137+vat per hour for labour alone. :lol:


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## Deano (Jul 7, 2006)

joelee said:


> Would Audi not put it in writing that they have not had the car there or ask for a copy of the estimate and ask Audi to confirm they have given it out to tryt and build a stronger case for you.


if you ask they probably will. i had a dispute with the garage I bought my car off and I emailed several audi dealers. almost all of them (including 3 dealer principals) emailed me with the info I needed. its deffo worth a try.


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## andy665 (Nov 1, 2005)

The bloke has been sending mildly abusive emails which i have not responded to - merely printing them off. fortunately I'm pretty meticulous so everything is documented. i think the facts speak for themselves:

1. Advert makes no mention of damage(apart from saying a tiny blemish) which he now admits is there by stating he is getting it repaired

2. I insure the car and pay a £30 service charge to amend my insurance to cover it

3. I, my wife and son make the 120+ mile trip to collect the car 

4. I take the balance in cash as requested by the seller

There can only be one possible reason why I did not complete the purchase - it was not as described.

If I had paid the deposit and then simply decided I did not want the car I would fully expect to lose my deposit but I believe I have demonstrated total intent to complete the purchase


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## Bero (Mar 9, 2008)

Andy - you have a great defense - don't get worried, stress or spend too much of your valuable time on this. If it goes to court you will nearly certainly win.



Ming said:


> Having had some dealings with the small claims courts I can offer the following bits of info.
> 
> 4. Be prepared for extra costs. The small claims court can add costs of witnesses etc all of which will be born by the losing party.


I understood that both parties absorb their own costs in the SCC regardless of who wins?


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## OvlovMike (Jul 19, 2011)

Bero said:


> I understood that both parties absorb their own costs in the SCC regardless of who wins?


Indeed. As soon as this guy gets the SCC summons he'll fess up, as any solicitor he speaks to will say he's quite happy to take the case on, but no matter how you cut it it'll be expensive, so he'll just stump up the funds - he's just playing hardball thinking you're trying it on and will give up.


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## james_death (Aug 9, 2010)

He should pay up, ebay is not a binding contract and your perfectly entitled to walk away and get your money back, certainly not meeting description.

He should pay up and save the extra costs that he will get otherwise.


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## SuperchargedLlama (Apr 25, 2008)

andy665 said:


> Fortunately I have copies of the emails I sent him asking about the bodywork and his response - as far as I can see he hasn't got a leg to stand on - if the car had been as described it would now be sitting on my drive.


That was going to be my first question - as you have these I think you should be absolutely fine.


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## Tomm (Jan 14, 2009)

Any further news on this? I hate people like this, I really do. 

Someone made a rather large Paypal payment to me for good. They have since claimed that they did not make the transaction and paypal have returned the money to them with no questions asked. I have all of our corospondence via email but paypal are not interested in the slightest. 

Hope this turns out well for you, Its totally unfair and just not cool. 

The blatant lie of Audi quoting for repairs is also some what comical considering another member pointed out they have a base rate labour charge of £140 (or something i can not remember to well) and their quote was less than this. 

All the best!


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## andy665 (Nov 1, 2005)

No news, he has until Wednesday to respond to the claim, its back on E-Bay as well

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/AUDI-CABR...4311200?pt=Automobiles_UK&hash=item27be2c7d20


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## bigmc (Mar 22, 2010)

I'm tempted to put a ridiculous bid on it and bump it up.


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## Kai Herb (Aug 8, 2007)

Why not ask him a question about the "odd mark" he states in the new advert


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## andy665 (Nov 1, 2005)

Kai Herb said:


> Why not ask him a question about the "odd mark" he states in the new advert


I would like to but do not want to give him any way of being able to accuse me of being unreasonable


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## DiscoTD5 (Feb 12, 2010)

Was the " minor blemish " on the passenger side as his photos seem to favour the drivers side. Hope you get it sorted,


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## andy665 (Nov 1, 2005)

"Minor blemish" was on drivers side rear arch, to be honest it would not show on photos from that distance


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## Darlofan (Nov 24, 2010)

Wish i lived near Swansea, i'd love to pop round and view the car. 
Do you think he's had the dents repaired? He only makes remarks about odd marks on it nothing major.
Might be worth setting up an ebay account and bid through the roof for it, arrange a time to pick it up and then not turn up for it:thumb: 
I think everyone on here should watch iton ebay then he'll think he's got loads interested in it I am for one.


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## james_death (Aug 9, 2010)

Tomm said:


> Someone made a rather large Paypal payment to me for good. They have since claimed that they did not make the transaction and paypal have returned the money to them with no questions asked. I have all of our corospondence via email but paypal are not interested in the slightest.
> 
> All the best!


If you have proof of posting to there address, that prevents them claiming back on grounds they did not authorise the payment... pretty sure on that its in the seller protection section.


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## james_death (Aug 9, 2010)

andy665 said:


> No news, he has until Wednesday to respond to the claim, its back on E-Bay as well
> 
> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/AUDI-CABR...4311200?pt=Automobiles_UK&hash=item27be2c7d20


If there is a dispute going on it should not really be relisted till resolved.


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## Tomm (Jan 14, 2009)

andy665 said:


> No news, he has until Wednesday to respond to the claim, its back on E-Bay as well
> 
> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/AUDI-CABR...4311200?pt=Automobiles_UK&hash=item27be2c7d20


And still no mention of the damage.

Is that a dent on the O/S front wing? The one which can be seen in the first 2 photos which is a lot larger than a pence piece?


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## Tomm (Jan 14, 2009)

james_death said:


> If you have proof of posting to there address, that prevents them claiming back on grounds they did not authorise the payment... pretty sure on that its in the seller protection section.


I thought so as well but apparently not so many paypal employes have told me.

I have the bill from Parcel force stating it was delivered, i even have the guys signature on the proof of delivery which is in my email which matches his name on paypal along with all of our emails and the attatchment which came through with the paypal payment stating what the money was for.

They are how ever not interested at all as it was not a ebay transaction.

The money was withdrawn before the claim was put in, but paypal want me to refund the accound to the amount which they have already refunded.

I spoke to Cheshire police and they said to give the buyer notice to drop the claim and return the money, if not then they would be very interested in the case on thr grounds of fraud. Or something.

Anyway that is for another thread!


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## GJM (Jul 19, 2009)

Tomm said:


> I thought so as well but apparently not so many paypal employes have told me.
> 
> I spoke to Cheshire police and they said to give the buyer notice to drop the claim and return the money, if not then they would be very interested in the case on thr grounds of fraud. Or something.


Paypal, where do you start with them, corrupt indeed!

Police have changed there tune, they used to take the old 'it's a civil matter' stance


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## james_death (Aug 9, 2010)

Tomm said:


> They are how ever not interested at all as it was not a ebay transaction.
> 
> Anyway that is for another thread!


I see thats why there not so interested as not a sale through there evil bay.

Still shocking.


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## clarkey1269 (Dec 27, 2010)

bidding war anyone?


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## Keir (Aug 31, 2010)

I just asked this:
_You say there is the odd mark. Is this just stone chips on the front bumper or is there and damage to the bodywork elsewhere?_

Maybe we should all start asking questions and Giving Andy the replies.


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## Deanoecosse (Mar 15, 2007)

I emailed the seller and asked the specific question "is there any rust?" His repair quote is getting cheaper all the time! His reply below:

_*"Hi. There was a rust bubble of approx 1 inch square on offside rear arch when I bought. Rubbed back to bare metal, treated and painted. As the car s paintwork is totally original and was such a small area desided not to have the panel sprayed at a paint shop. Had estimate though, £80. No other issues. Cheers, kevin."*_


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## andy665 (Nov 1, 2005)

Interetsing as he had advised me that it was going in to Audi Swansea to be done a few weeks ago. One inch square my backside. The finish was so rough and the blobbed in paint so bad that no way on earth was it rubbed back to bare metal.

More power to my claim I think

Also what are peoples thoughts on him not declaring this problem within the advert - is it acceptable to make this clear only when asked?


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## Keir (Aug 31, 2010)

I got a reply as well.



eBay: kglock395 said:


> Dear keir_spitfire,
> 
> There was a small area were the paint had bubbled on offside rear arch when I purchased car. The size approx 1inch square. Rubbed back to bare metal and painted. Didnt want to have area sprayed as paintwork is totally original. Also a very small mark with no paintwork damage on offside front wing. Nothing really. Cheers, Kevin.
> 
> - kglock395


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## Keir (Aug 31, 2010)

Also here's a screen shot for your records incase he start denying things.


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## andy665 (Nov 1, 2005)

Received notification today that he is disputing my claim and wishes me to complete the sale - why then is it back on E-Bay - the bloke is a total idiot, looks like I'll be seeing him in court.

Went through his response to the court this evening and made detaled notes about every single point that I believe him to be incorrect on, hopefully this will form the basis of my case:

*Response to points raised by defendant in statement to the court*

I did not choose not to view the car - due to its location and my work commitments I was unable to view prior to auction end, hence why I entered into e-mail correspondence with defendant for clarification on vehicles condition

Defendant states that auction ended on 21st Aug, in fact it ended at 21.07 on 14th August (proof available)

I did not ask to collect the car on 21st Aug - I asked him when would be suitable for him as I knew he had to transfer his personal reg. number - he responded with Sunday 21st Aug (proof available). Defendant did not receive the replacement registration number until 20th Aug (proof available) so collection before the suggested date of 21st Aug would not have been possible

I did not offer to pay a £250 deposit, I did offer to pay something - he responded requesting £250 by cheque. I responded stating I do not have a chequebook but offered to pay via Paypal or bank transfer, I subsequently paid the requested £250 by bank transfer within 6 hours of being advised of bank details

I did indeed have a bad feeling about the car when I inspected it. The damage to o/side rear arch was not as described which led to my being concerned about what else may be concealed

I was at property for approx. 15 minutes, I did not request to see any documentation as I had already concluded that the vehicle was not as described and it would be wasteful of defendants time to look at said documentation

I own a 13 year old which has NO damage. I did not expect the car to be perfect but I did expect it to be as described

The fact that the vehicle had been to Swansea Audi the week prior and passed its MOT is irrelevant - I have never disputed its roadworthiness and the area of conflict would never have formed any part of its MOT inspection

At no point has defendant offered to supply proof of estimates. Working within the motor industry I know how easy it is to generate a quote that bears little or no relation to the work required. As an example a main franchised dealer will typically charge a minimum of £75 + VAT per hour for labour, somewhat throwing into doubt the validity of the repair estimate of £130 from Swansea Audi. Defendant states that area was / is 1 inch square, I believe the damage to be considerably more extensive (at least 3 inches square) and to extend round the forward leading edge of the o/side rear arch from the disputed area to the sill

I have never stated I had bought hundreds of cars, I have bought dozens and sold dozens with no issue as I know what to look for and am scrupulously honest in my advertisements

Defendant losing two other potential buyers is of his own doing, he suggested the 21st Aug for collection and his misrepresentation of the vehicle in the first place created the situation whereby other potential purchasers were lost

I have also incurred costs - a 240 mile round trip from my home in Shropshire (diesel at £6,20 per gallon at 40mpg = £37.20), half a day in travelling (my chargeable daily rate is £400.00 per day = £200.00), transfer of insurance (£30.00), carpet mats (£26.95) - totalling £294.15
Defendant has a 100% feedback rating on E-Bay from 19 (4 as a seller) transactions, I have feedback of 100% on 165 transaction within last 12 months

If defendant wishes me to collect the car why is it currently listed on E-Bay, listing due to end at 20.42 on 16th Sept 2011, E-Bay number 170694311200

*Additional points*

If defendant believes I had no intention of completing the purchase why:

Did I pay £250.00 deposit

Take ½ day to make a 240 mile round trip with balance of purchase price to collect the car

Transfer insurance to advertised vehicle at a cost of £30.00

Invest in new bespoke carpet mats for the vehicle at a cost of £26.95

Why did defendant apologise for wasting my time and state that the deposit would be refunded in full when I stated that I was not happy with the cars condition in relation to the description

Subsequently responded to other peoples request about any bodywork issues in a similarly vague / untruthful manner (proof available)

Defendant made no offer to put right disputed problem at his own cost at any point in time

Is it right for a potential purchaser to ask for details of all faults / marks etc or is it the duty of seller to be honest in the description of goods in the first instance

I merely wish to be re-instated to the financial position that I was in before making the payment of £250.00 to the defendant


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## james_death (Aug 9, 2010)

Sounds perfectly good to me...
You should have not to go through all this and hope you get reimbursed for your troubles also.


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## bidderman1969 (Oct 20, 2006)

sounds good, keep us updated


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## clarkey1269 (Dec 27, 2010)

WTF! so this guy selling the car is taking you court?


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## packard (Jun 8, 2009)

If i was you from my lessons learnt for each proof avaiable have in a folder Appendix 1, Appendix 2, etc so you they can view if required..

That was IF there is a query you have everything there and ready etc.

Oh and add the cost of letters, phone calls, printing documentation, etc to this i did and won!


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## andy665 (Nov 1, 2005)

packard

Good point, I have all proof in date order but I'll appendx it all. If the bloke can't even get the date of his auction end correct I suspect he'll turn up badly prepared, fortunately I'm very organised and will be making sure all the info I need is totally tidy and ordered


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## GJM (Jul 19, 2009)

Is it not worth going down the road of getting him to drop the price in relation to what work is deemed neccesary or is that not an avenue either want to explore


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## james_death (Aug 9, 2010)

GJM said:


> Is it not worth going down the road of getting him to drop the price in relation to what work is deemed neccesary or is that not an avenue either want to explore


If he has lied about one thing then its probably worse still, brings into question everything about it millage servicing yadda yadda.

Seller should have just coughed the money up, the fact it was bank transfer has led to him trying his hand.

Hope it comes back to bite him big time.


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## andy665 (Nov 1, 2005)

GJM - no chance - misled on one thing that I unearthed, what else has he covered up - overall condition of the car did not fully measure up to his description


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## OvlovMike (Jul 19, 2011)

If there's one thing to gleam from this, is when buying from any old **** or his dog on the Internet, use a method of sending money that has some form of protection.

Doesn't help you now though, but I hope you screw this prick to a cross!


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## Keir (Aug 31, 2010)

lol @ the car not selling.


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## GJM (Jul 19, 2009)

james_death said:


> If he has lied about one thing then its probably worse still, brings into question everything about it millage servicing yadda yadda.
> 
> Seller should have just coughed the money up, the fact it was bank transfer has led to him trying his hand.
> 
> Hope it comes back to bite him big time.


Obviously be cautious but certain things can be checked like getting an HPI check inc NMR, getting the test cert or v5 doc ref and checking VOSA.

Also can find out from Audi when it has been to them for any visits.

It's a used car, if someone is anal about a purchase then surely they would carry out the likes of an AA/RAC check, check themselves if competent or take a friend who is.

Then there is no hiding place, if the paintwork is not as described, it's not exactly hidden, it's going to stare you in the face as is the case here.


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## GJM (Jul 19, 2009)

Ming said:


> I had a scratch repair quoted recently by a local quality independant garage at over £1,000:00)


Who was the proprietor, didn't go by the name of Dick Turpin by any chance :speechles


Ming said:


> 9. Call in at citizens advice and see what they can offer. (You may well have to phone up and make an appointment for this believe it or not)


Yes believe it, infact a lot of them do not even operate 5 days a week and the days they do operate are limited hours.

A lot of them also are known not to take appointments, many seem to be pop in take a ticket affairs....and be prepared to wait a long time. :wall:

That said you might strike it lucky.



Ming said:


> Ming the Lawman


Should sue Mr Turpins garage for attemped theft


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## GJM (Jul 19, 2009)

Deano said:


> audi dealers charge £137+vat per hour for labour alone. :lol:


They charge different rates, it's not the same across the board.


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## Darlofan (Nov 24, 2010)

Glad to see it didn't sell, hope he relists so we can watch it not sell again!!


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## bidderman1969 (Oct 20, 2006)

any news?


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## andy665 (Nov 1, 2005)

No news - just waiting for a court date


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## joelee (Nov 28, 2009)

Any more on this. 


Sent from my iPhone 4s using my fingers and thumb.


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## andy665 (Nov 1, 2005)

Court date set at 27th Jan - looking forward to it


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## bidderman1969 (Oct 20, 2006)

good to hear


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## andy665 (Nov 1, 2005)

Had my day in court today - what a joke but a victory of sorts

All paperwork we were going to use had to be submitted to the courts and each other by 30th November - other bloke sent nothing to me or the court

Turned up today after a 180 mile drive, other person he had no idea he had to submit stuff in advance - I presumed that as it was entirely his own fault then it would game over

Oh no, I was told the case would be adjourned for several weeks so that he would have time to submit his evidence.

Judge suggested that it could be settled if we wanted to - to be honest I just wanted to have my say and blast him off which I did, other bloke offered to pay £200 back of my original £250 - I really could not face another 360 mile round trip so I accepted

Not the result I really wanted but definitely a moral victory and got most of my money back


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## Ming (Oct 16, 2007)

actually not a bad result mate
The reason he offered you £200 is that he knew you would not travel back.
I would contact ebay and tell them the result. It shows him to be a poor ebayer if nothing else.
Ming the considered


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## bigmc (Mar 22, 2010)

£200 is better than none though, could alway register his address to all kinds now too.


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## chisai (Jan 1, 2009)

For the sake of £50 and the moral victory I'd have done the same. Even without the travelling.


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## lobotomy (Jun 23, 2006)

If you had waited for the re-trial and won would you not have been able to claim expenses for the travel as well? 

Shallow victory, but I'd have probably done the same.


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## slineclean (Dec 23, 2011)

Aww didnt know about this thread. 

Cant bel it went to court , I had some hassle with a car my dad brought , basically a knackerd engine a garage that was suppose to rebuild the engine didnt and loads of hassle , went to trading standards and number of phone calls and letters , landed up only getting 45% of the value of getting a other engine costs back , wass told if took him to court it would be more money and still the risk of not getting the money. so took that 45% 

feel for you chap , it was alot of excess stress i could of done without


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## uruk hai (Apr 5, 2009)

Just read this myself and sorry to read of all the fuss, there really are some Muppets out there !

I worked with a guy who bought a bike brand new and had nothing but trouble with and he ended up going through the small claims court and instead of doing something along the lines of what you did he just pushed it every inch of the way. The judgment was in his favour which is all well and good but considering the time and fuss involved it turned out to be something of a pyrrhic victory !

In the grand scheme of things I think the result you got was about as good as it could have reasonably been considering you were dealing with a grade A pecker !


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## GJM (Jul 19, 2009)

Ming said:


> actually not a bad result mate
> The reason he offered you £200 is that he knew you would not travel back.
> I would contact ebay and tell them the result. It shows him to be a poor ebayer if nothing else.
> Ming the considered


Waste of time contacting them, they couldn't give two hoots


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## andy665 (Nov 1, 2005)

Quick update.

Despite judgement reached on 27th Jan it took him until 14th Feb to send me the cheque, made out in the wrong name

Returned cheque the following day asking for it to be re-issued, even provided a SAE and sent by Recorded Delivery to be safe

Still had nothing back from him, despite a further letter (again sent Recorded Delivery) two weeks ago

Off to court tomorrow to submit a request for a Third Party Debt order which will effectively freeze his bank account until a hearing takes place. Will cost me another £100 (which gets added to what he already owes me) but having his account frozen will totally screw him up I reckon

Only able to do this as I was sensible enough to make a note of his bank account details when I first paid him the deposit last year, without his bank details I could not apply for the order


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## SteveTDCi (Feb 8, 2006)

Haha that'll teach him for prattling about


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## bidderman1969 (Oct 20, 2006)

Couldn't you have sent in bailiff's? I did when someone I took to small claims court when they owed me over 2 grand


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## andy665 (Nov 1, 2005)

bidderman1969 said:


> Couldn't you have sent in bailiff's? I did when someone I took to small claims court when they owed me over 2 grand


He does not owe me enough to issue a warrant of execution (bailiffs)


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## The Cueball (Feb 8, 2007)

What a f***g mess.....

:wall:

Keep on him!

:lol:

Has the car actually sold yet?!?!


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## *Das* (Aug 9, 2010)

Nice read. Interesting story. I can see where your coming from but id have said stuff it, he sued you, id have gladly returned at a later day and gone for the full amount and all your expenses.


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## Keir (Aug 31, 2010)

OMG what a joke I hope you get the £200 soon then.


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## andy665 (Nov 1, 2005)

I'm pursuing him out of principle - the money is almost an irrelevance, its purely the fact that I do not want him to get away with it


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## nick_mcuk (Jan 4, 2008)

andy665 said:


> He does not owe me enough to issue a warrant of execution (bailiffs)


Just send some big blokes round to "collect" for you


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## Penfold101 (Nov 12, 2009)

Any news on this a few months down the line...?


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## andy665 (Nov 1, 2005)

He did not comply with the judgement and TBH I have not had the time / motivation to pursue. I could apply to have his bank account frozen and seized but its another £100 with no guarantee that I'll get my money.

Classic case of the courts making it far more difficult for the victim than the guilty party


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## OvlovMike (Jul 19, 2011)

Just arrange for something to cost him. Easy justice.

Useless system in this country, a murderer gets the best solicitor going free of charge, someone who gets screwed over by a scumbag gets hung out to dry.


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## Paintmaster1982 (Oct 23, 2007)

I've read a similar thread elsewhere who was in the same situation as you and months and months later he basically didn't win so he went round one night and caused the amount of damage to the car to the money he lost. Slashed tyres, keyed panel etc.

I'am not saying this is the right thing to do but an eye for an eye i think the saying goes.


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## bidderman1969 (Oct 20, 2006)

I have been through the same thing, instructed bailiffs to act for me when they still didn't pay up, funnily enough when they turned up at their house they suddenly realised I was serious, got my money


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