# Waterbase Paint



## bluecob

*Waterbase Paint*

Before I ask my questions I apologise if they have been answered elsewhere plus I am an absolute novice trying to spray a door panel for a friend.

The only paint I can get here in France is waterbase paint but I am being told it is far better that the old paint once you get the hang of it. So, after a few expensive failures as the base paint is not cheap, here are my questions:


How do you get a run out of the paint whilst spraying? With the old cellulose paint I used to wait for it to dry then sand down the offending part and spray again?

Can you sand down waterbase paint once dry?

How do you remove waterbase paint? This is easy to do if removing immediately after applying as you just wash it off but what after it has set?
I am spraying two coat metallic - metalic base coats then laquer top coats:


Do you rub down the basecoat or spray the laquer straight over it?

If anyone has any tips for an idiot I would love to see them. I am enjoying doing this but it is slowly costing me a fortune as I do not know how to use the materials. I am learning though.

Thanks in anticipation.


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## mr paint

Hi colour dependant finish repairs with 600 and 1000g the rest of the door 


Apply base 

first coat should be a mist coat sprayed at 2 bar or just under this allows you to check for faults in substrate .

2nd coat med wet overlap 75% don't look for coverage straight away ....dry with heat gun /hairdryer until matte

apply another med/wet coat same as last coat and dry 

last coat drop the pressure to 1 bar and open fluid another turn or 2 double your spraying distance and apply a coat ( drop coat ) 

This coat can sometimes look alarming like 80g sand paper sitting on top of the paint ! Don't worry 

Let this air dry and when you come back it should look as you want it 


apply clear as per tds 



You should NEVER put base on so wet that it runs ...turn fluid in or move quicker 


clear on the other hand a grip coat ( light coat) followed by wet coat will help hold things on the panel But may cause orange peel 


this is for my base coat De-Beer but most are similar 

Hope this helps 


Tommy


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## bluecob

Thanks Tommy.

Can I rub down/sand waterbase like solvent based paints?

How do you remove it if needs be once dry?


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## mr paint

You can de-nib some but read the tech sheet for the paint you want to use .


Don't sand base before clear ....wait until base is fully dry give extra 30 mins and tack cloth then apply clear 


Tommy


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## mr paint

You should never need to remove .


If you have major f Up let dry ...clear then let set 


Come back re-flatten clear and start again 


Best advice is take your time !!


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## Andyb0127

Do you know what the make of waterbase paint is that you will be using. As most are applied fairly much like solvent. But some are applied in one application like spies hecker which were using. Same as tommy said but ours, will be a light coat dry it, one full wet coat, pull gun back and drop coat/blend straight over it while its wet, then dry and laquer.


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## bluecob

Hi again.

Do you mean let it dry (basecoat) spray lacquer on it and let it set, sand down with say 600 grit then start again?.

Sorry if I seem thick but I am new to this.


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## bluecob

Andyb0127 said:


> Do you know what the make of waterbase paint is that you will be using. As most are applied fairly much like solvent. But some are applied in one application like spies hecker which were using. Same as tommy said but ours, will be a light coat dry it, one full wet coat, pull gun back and drop coat/blend straight over it while its wet, then dry and laquer.


Hi.

I have no idea. My local Fiat Garage mixed it up for me, I think it was MaxMeyer.

I have just ordered some from Germany. No idea again what it is called but here are the details: http://ebay.eu/1pGA5q4.

Thanks for trying to help.


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## Andyb0127

bluecob said:


> Hi again.
> 
> Do you mean let it dry (basecoat) spray lacquer on it and let it set, sand down with say 600 grit then start again?.
> 
> Sorry if I seem thick but I am new to this.


Yet that's what tommy meant. 
Its not being thick at all, its asking the right questions ive been in the trade over thirty years and still learn new things and ask questions. Ask what you like I'm sure one of us painters will be more than able help.


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## bluecob

I need to explain something. 

I am having difficulty sourcing paint in France mainly because I do not speak French and most, if not all, paint suppliers in the UK won't send abroad.

Perhaps someone here could help in pointing me to someone in the UK who will send to France. I can understand not sending solvent based paint but waterbase is another matter.


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## Andyb0127

bluecob said:


> Hi.
> 
> I have no idea. My local Fiat Garage mixed it up for me, I think it was MaxMeyer.
> 
> I have just ordered some from Germany. No idea again what it is called but here are the details: http://ebay.eu/1pGA5q4.
> 
> Thanks for trying to help.


If its max Meyer aquamax, then its apply a light dry for it, apply a nice even coat dry it, apply another even coat, dry it, then apply a light coat (drop coat) blending the paint out, so it blends in with original, let it dry fully. Then its ready to laquer.

Not a problem only to glad to help.


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## bluecob

Andyb0127 said:


> If its max Meyer aquamax, then its apply a light dry for it, apply a nice even coat dry it, apply another even coat, dry it, then apply a light coat (drop coat) blending the paint out, so it blends in with original, let it dry fully. Then its ready to lacquer.
> 
> Not a problem only to glad to help.


I have used it all now and think I have messed up again. I wish I had found this site before starting. I have spent over €100 on paint (it cost this from the Fiat Garage for just under 1 ltr) and I have used all of it trying to get this door to look OK.

If you see in another post I have ordered some more from Germany.

I am hoping tomorrow when I go take a look at the car it might be OK but I fear not especially as I had some runs and tried to wipe them off!

Do you still think I am not an idiot?

When I used solvent based paint years ago it was easy, let it dry, rub the runs etc. out and apply another coat or two. This waterbase paint is a nightmare.

It would have been far cheaper for me to get the Garage to do it for me and I may well end up doing this but for now I am enjoying messing and hope I succeed - with all your help I just might.


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## Andyb0127

bluecob said:


> I have used it all now and think I have messed up again. I wish I had found this site before starting. I have spent over €100 on paint (it cost this from the Fiat Garage for just under 1 ltr) and I have used all of it trying to get this door to look OK.
> 
> If you see in another post I have ordered some more from Germany.
> 
> I am hoping tomorrow when I go take a look at the car it might be OK but I fear not especially as I had some runs and tried to wipe them off!
> 
> Do you still think I am not an idiot?
> 
> When I used solvent based paint years ago it was easy, let it dry, rub the runs etc. out and apply another coat or two. This waterbase paint is a nightmare.
> 
> It would have been far cheaper for me to get the Garage to do it for me and I may well end up doing this but for now I am enjoying messing and hope I succeed - with all your help I just might.


Course not mate we all make feck ups its knowing how to put it right. I take it the runs your going on about are in the laquer. Waterbase is easier to use as it doesn't need to be applied that heavy, its just it takes abit longer to dry which is what catches people out as they think its like solvent.


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## mr paint

The paint should never run as such !

Maybe poor gun set up to much fluid etc 

What colour is the car ? colour code?


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## bluecob

Andy - no, the runs were in the basecoat. Not lacquered it yet.

Tommy - Polar Silver 761 (Mercedes).

As for gun set up - now I really am going to look stupid - did not bother as long as it sprayed and paint came out. I only have a small compressor (50lt. 2 hp) and no idea what my gun is as there is nothing on it. I have just bought a LVLP gun which has arrived without connections (why do they do this?). 

I will get there.


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## mr paint

Ideal video

Tommy


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## supernova-dw

Many people over apply the basecoat... What you need to remember is that with the basecoat you are not aiming for a shine...with the basecoat all you need is even coverage, no shine. Basically you just 'dust' it on... The shine itself comes entirely from the lacquer. 

Flat the area to paint with P600 wet, wipe it off and then panel wipe, blow off and tack rag. From there it's time to apply your colour, I go with a light coat to begin with after which one normal coat, remember you need to do around a 50% Overlap, once you've done this coat let it dry off and keep going with further coats until you have full coverage.

Basically the best advice I could give is not to over apply the basecoat and remember that you are not attempting to get a shine. Lastly as for setting up your spray gun my personal advice is to set the fluid and fan controls on maximum!


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## bluecob

mr paint said:


> MaxMeyer Topcoat Application - YouTube
> 
> Ideal video
> 
> Tommy


Hi Tommy

Can't see the video, sorry.


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## bluecob

supernova-dw said:


> Many people over apply the basecoat... What you need to remember is that with the basecoat you are not aiming for a shine...with the basecoat all you need is even coverage, no shine. Basically you just 'dust' it on... The shine itself comes entirely from the lacquer.
> 
> Flat the area to paint with P600 wet, wipe it off and then panel wipe, blow off and tack rag. From there it's time to apply your colour, I go with a light coat to begin with after which one normal coat, remember you need to do around a 50% Overlap, once you've done this coat let it dry off and keep going with further coats until you have full coverage.
> 
> Basically the best advice I could give is not to over apply the basecoat and remember that you are not attempting to get a shine. Lastly as for setting up your spray gun my personal advice is to set the fluid and fan controls on maximum!


I have put on some lacquer today to see what it dries like but it looks as though I might have to start all over again but will use the tips, including yours, that I have read here.

I will keep posting when I see how the lacquer dries. I can see some marks in the basecoat though. They might even be marks in the primer.

Can I fill these without having to strip everything off?

One final **** up.

I took my camera into the workshop to get a couple of pics and forgot I had it on the bench. I spilled some lacquer and it covered the camera completely f***ing it.

This is proving to be a very expensive learning curve.


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## bluecob

bluecob said:


> Hi Tommy
> 
> Can't see the video, sorry.


Can now. Very interesting.


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## mr paint

bluecob said:


> Can now. Very interesting.


you tube is your friend !


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## bluecob

*Update*

Quick update.

Managed to get on basecoat and then lacquer. This morning It looks like some of the basecoat had run even though I did not see it before I put on the lacquer.

Can I now rub down this bit and re do or do I have to strip the whole door again?


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## mr paint

you never have to strip anything 


scuff whole panel with 6or800 then blow paint over these areas ...drop coat the surrounding area then clear full panel 


Done


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## supernova-dw

From what your saying it sounds like the main problem your having is over application of the basecoat, just remember that it doesn't need to provide any shine and all you need is a even light coat.

Have you got any pictures of your work?


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## bluecob

supernova-dw said:


> From what your saying it sounds like the main problem your having is over application of the basecoat, just remember that it doesn't need to provide any shine and all you need is a even light coat.
> 
> Have you got any pictures of your work?


I was going to post some pictures but, if you read a previous post, you will see I knackered - sorry - lacquered my Camera.


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## bluecob

How long should I wait before polishing up the lacquer to see what it is like?

I would like to do this before re starting.


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## bluecob

*Help!*

Guys

*HELP!*

I have tried rubbing it back down as suggested to put on another coat of basecoat then lacquer it again and it has created some horrendous scratches plus it is fetching off the lacquer in like black curly bits.

I need to get all this rubbish I have put on off. Will ordinary paint stripper do this?

I do not know what to do.

This is not my car but a friends and he will be wanting it back soon. Please, if anyone can help tell me what to do. I am just making matters worse.

By the way I have spent a fortune on this so far and it would have been cheaper to take it to a body shop and let them do it. This I think is what I will have to do but I need to prepare the door first as I am sure they will charge a premium getting these scratches out etc.

Thanks.


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## mr paint

Should have asked what clear you using 2k ?


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## mr paint

what part of the car is this ?


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## bluecob

Hi Mr. Paint.

I put on a couple of coats of 2k but ran out so then put on some 1k spray can coats. I can't find any suppliers here in France even though there must be.

It is a door panel.


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## bluecob

I have managed to rub off a lot of the clear. Can I now touch up bare spots with primer, rub down then basecoat and clear coat again?

Would it be best to prime the whole panel?


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## mr paint

You are now highly running the risk of colour not matching ... NEVER use 1k clear for such a large panel !


you have to give yourself credit for trying BUT if you mess up again think of the money frustration etc it will cause you 


I would let a bodyshop take part in this ....only downside is they will want to paint the adjacent panels to ...this might cost £££

If you want to have another go ..post some pics let us see what the issues are then we can advise what to do 


Tommy


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## bluecob

mr paint said:


> You are now highly running the risk of colour not matching ... NEVER use 1k clear for such a large panel !
> 
> you have to give yourself credit for trying BUT if you mess up again think of the money frustration etc it will cause you
> 
> I would let a bodyshop take part in this ....only downside is they will want to paint the adjacent panels to ...this might cost £££
> 
> If you want to have another go ..post some pics let us see what the issues are then we can advise what to do
> 
> Tommy


I accept what you are saying about a bodyshop wanting to paint adjacent panels but the colourmatch I have is OK plus, being the customer, I would tell them what I wanted.

Here are some pics. Sorry about the quality:










You will see the scratches look deep but the surface is smooth to hand.










Overall look. I think I could re-prime then start again.


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## bluecob

Experiencing another problem now. 

When trying to rub down I get little bits of lacquer (black bits) and some lacquer will not rub down as it appears still 'tacky'. It might be I did not put enough hardener in it. Would using a heat gun on it help?

Can anyone tell me the best way to get this door ready for starting all over again?

Thanks.

I am starting to panic.


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## supernova-dw

Not being harsh but it really looks like you have a bad problem here... Where have all the bi scratches come from? If the lacquer is still soft then your going to get everything off and start from fresh... Maybe best going around scrap yards and finding a door in the same colour for the time being.

You can then always keep the other door and practice on there. It'll come to you eventually, try not to be disheartened as it will be so satisfying once you get it right and a good skill to have.


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## bluecob

supernova-dw said:


> Not being harsh but it really looks like you have a bad problem here... Where have all the bi scratches come from? If the lacquer is still soft then your going to get everything off and start from fresh... Maybe best going around scrap yards and finding a door in the same colour for the time being.
> 
> You can then always keep the other door and practice on there. It'll come to you eventually, try not to be disheartened as it will be so satisfying once you get it right and a good skill to have.


Hi

The scratches came from trying to rub down the lacquer so that I could start again.

I went from 1000 grit to 120 (It was the 120 made those scratches) and it would not come off. It feels tacky to touch.

I have now tried getting it off with acetate and whilst a lot has come off there are still these tacky patches. I thought of sanding everything off back to the metal but I think this would be a disaster.

Living in France there are not many scrap places you can get bits from as cars here tend not to be scrapped but hold a value until crushing. Also if there are any they are few and far between. I need to get this door sorted and any help would be appreciated.

The first problem is how to remove this lacquer so, how do you get it off when it has not set?

I have ordered some more basecoat which is on the way plus I have ordered a 2K lacquer that, according to the manufacturer, sets in 40 mins ready for polishing. Sounds good and just what I need once I have a good basecoat.

If I get a reasonable finish on the door even if all the lacquer is not off could I prime the door with a few coats, sand then apply basecoat?

Sorry for all the questions.


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## peterboy

If it's tacky to the touch and you have been trying to remove it with solvent then you have no option now but to remove it all back to bare metal otherwise you are going to lock all those solvents in with another coat. BTW 40 min to polish is if you can bake it.


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## bluecob

peterboy said:


> If it's tacky to the touch and you have been trying to remove it with solvent then you have no option now but to remove it all back to bare metal otherwise you are going to lock all those solvents in with another coat. BTW 40 min to polish is if you can bake it.


I have been hand sanding all day and think I nearly have it all off. There might be a couple of bits I have missed but I will get back on it tomorrow.

Will 'locking in' some solvent be a problem especially as I will be priming it again with a few coats? Plus does not the solvent evaporate?

It has been washed and washed and I am sure there will be no solvent. There might be a few traces of the lacquer though but very hard to see.

Thanks for trying to help.


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## Sicskate

Looks a bit of a mess to me 

I'd have put some marigolds on, got a mask then just thinners and scotched the crap out of it to remove all of the paint you have added. 

Do you have any pictures of the panel now you have re prepped it?? 

Are you cleaning the panel with panel wipe and silicon inferno?

I also use 541.


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## bluecob

Sicskate said:


> Looks a bit of a mess to me
> 
> I'd have put some marigolds on, got a mask then just thinners and scotched the crap out of it to remove all of the paint you have added.
> 
> Do you have any pictures of the panel now you have re prepped it??
> 
> Are you cleaning the panel with panel wipe and silicon inferno?
> 
> I also use 541.


Hi

I will post a pic tomorrow. It is 9pm here in France.

I do not know the products that you mention and certainly would not be able to get them here. This is one of my problems I have not found anywhere here yet where I can get materials from.

When you say 'thinners' what do you mean?

Please bear in mind the basecoat is waterbase.

Thanks.


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## mr paint

I would say Honest advice !

Take to bodyshop ...the more you do the more they will charge !

The will carefully mask up the area ...remove paint 

repair 

prime 
bake 

paint/blend 
clear 
bake 

Its really time to hand it over...no disrespect but I don't want you spending more money working on one of the trickiest colours with minimal experience 


Start small 


Tommy


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## bluecob

mr paint said:


> I would say Honest advice !
> 
> Take to bodyshop ...the more you do the more they will charge !
> 
> The will carefully mask up the area ...remove paint
> 
> repair
> 
> prime
> bake
> 
> paint/blend
> clear
> bake
> 
> Its really time to hand it over...no disrespect but I don't want you spending more money working on one of the trickiest colours with minimal experience
> 
> Start small
> 
> Tommy


Hi Tommy

I understand what you are saying and should have done this right from the start but I have enjoyed doing this and have learnt a lot.

Eventually I might have to do this but I have more paint and lacquer on the way which I will persevere with otherwise the paint will be wasted. I will follow all the excellent tips here and, fingers crossed, might end up with a satisfactory result.

The last coat I did was not too bad only a problem in a couple of areas with the basecoat and this is because (I think) I tried to put it on too quickly. Where it all went wrong was with the lacquer.

The garage man I bought it off did not speak a word of English and I think I heard him wrong and got the mix wrong.

Watch this space.


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## bluecob

peterboy said:


> .... BTW 40 min to polish is if you can bake it.


The lacquer I have ordered does not require baking and sets in 40 mins. Obviously I am a novice at this but I do have to believe what I read. For anyone interested this is the lacquer:

http://www.peinturevoiture.fr/724-vernis-carrosserie-ultra-rapide.html

If you look in the 'Read More' section it states:



> unique formula, this coating dries in air (room temperature) in just 40 minutes


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## mr paint

A diluer en 1:1, c'est à dire 1 dose de vernis pour une dose de durcisseur, ce qui vous donnera 2 Litres de vernis !


Dose this not mean mix 50 50 with thinners? no hardener?

Is it a suitable clear for water base?


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## supernova-dw

mr paint said:


> A diluer en 1:1, c'est à dire 1 dose de vernis pour une dose de durcisseur, ce qui vous donnera 2 Litres de vernis !
> 
> Dose this not mean mix 50 50 with thinners? no hardener?
> 
> Is it a suitable clear for water base?


From this is sounds like it is a 1k clear however from the website link you posted it seems that there is a hardner available separately. Perhaps what you have done before is just used the lacquer like this and not put Any hardner hence why it did not set...??

Why don't you use Google translate on these pages or even if going to buy stuff in a store if the language is a problem as it actually does quite a decent job of translating from English to French.

The further problem which you now have is that you will now need to o strip the whole door down to bare metal meaning that now the whole door will of course need painting...the problems which arise from this is that if you just paint this whole door its very doubtful that the colour will match meaning that a blend will need to be done now and then before you know what's happened it means you needing to 're lacquer nearly the whole side of the car....

What you are best of doing is taking this car to a body shop now I'm afraid as if you get in to lacquering up the whole side and mess it up you are going to be in real trouble and find yourself having to she'll out a lot of money to get it fixed. I understand that you don't want to waste the materials you have ordered however this isn't the case as you can give it to the body shop who does the work to use.


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## bluecob

Hi

I did order the hardner as well and Google automatically translates web pages for me so it was all in English. Also if you had used Google like you told me to do you would see what you asked translates as; Dilute 1: 1, ie 1 dose of varnish for a dose of *hardener*, which will give you 2 liters of varnish! - so it is hardener not thinners (which I have ordered).

I cannot see why I have to strip all the paint off the door. I think, after a lot of hard work, I have removed the lacquer and surely a couple of coats of primer will suffice?

It will mean I have to re-apply the basecoat and lacquer again but I am fairly confident I can do this after my experience and getting some great tips. I have even had people phone me up to help and two guys offering to come round - obviously not via this Forum but a local website here.

It is such a small panel to have to do (Mercedes A class rear door) and all these suggestions that you are making are now getting to scare me.


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## bluecob

*More Pics*

Here are some pics after today's work. All of the lacquer has been removed (I hope!). It has been rubbed down and I hope now a couple of coats of primer, then a slight rub down should suffice for re-spraying.

I would love to read your thoughts:









Yesterday's scratches all gone.









Door sanded.

By the way the colour that you can see on the door that I have messed up is what I sprayed on. Not a bad match.

I have ordered some paint from another supplier so I hope that it will be as good.


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## bluecob

*Paint On Rubber*

*Paint On Rubber*

Another quick question before I mess up again. I have a bit of overspray (my fault!) on the window rubber and some of the hard plastic trim. Anyone got any suggestions on how to remove it?

Thanks.


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## bluecob

*Why Am I Doing It?*

*Why Am I Doing It?*

Good question and one that I have been asked but not answered.

This is my friends wife's car which they leave at their house here in France for anyone staying at the house to use - airport trips etc. Accordingly it is not looked after and when they kindly loaned it to me whilst my car is in the Garage for repairs I offered to do all the dents and scratches for them which I have done.

This door was another matter. It had been opened with some force onto the edge of a concrete post creating a 'V' shaped ding in some places through to the metal. I asked my friend if he wanted me to do this as well as I knew it would be more of a problem and he said OK.

What I did not know is that, here in France, waterbase paints are used. Many moons ago I used to spray using cellulose paints and, whilst never being a professional, always achieved acceptable results and it was easy to work with and very forgiving. Waterbase for me was a learning curve.

All the small dents and scratched were accomplished with cans (sorry guys!) but this door meant me investing in a Compressor, suitable guns and all the other 'bits' needed which I willingly did just wanting an excuse as I do enjoy doing this.

I have learnt so much and intend to persevere with this until I get it right. The easy way out would to let someone do this for me and someone has already offered at a very reasonable price so I have the fall back situation if I need it but, with all your help which I really appreciate, I want to crack this.

Sorry waffling on but now you know why I keep asking questions which I apologise for as some may be stupid.


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## mr paint

Stop while your ahead ! mate honestly ...the door will be a complete different colour to other door and qtr . 

This must be blended into both other panels 
Even I do painting ALOT I would never but match 2 adjacent panels Its going to look BAD !

1:1 Mix for me is unheard of in clear coat ??


Clay bar with washing up liquid For removing overspray on the trim panels and rubbers 


If this came into me I would 

remove trim
Mask up area with paper 2 inch from edges 
apply paint stripper (Controlled within area) 
scrape off after it has melted paint 
wash area with warm soapy water 
180G the rest of panel to few mm of edge (DA) 
Do any repairs 
240G full panel (DA)

Prime with 3 coat of 2k 

Bake for 30mins 

Guide coat and sand panel with 320g dry (DA) 

Re-guide coat and sand 500g dry 

scuff panel with 800g scuff pad (edges etc)

Sand adjacent panels with 1000g blend disc

mask up 

shoot paint door only (first coat)
DRY
shoot 2nd coat blending out 2-3 inches into adjacent panels 
DRY
shoot 3rd coat blending further out and blending diagonal now into both panels 
DRY
Control coat (drop coat ) gun @ 1 bar over all panels but only 3/4 through blend panels 

Leave to air dry 


Once properly dry 

Apply 1 light coat of clear over all panels 

wait for 5 mins (temp dependant)

apply 1 full coat flash for correct time 

apply 2nd full coat and walk away 

Hope this helps !

Tommy


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## bluecob

WOW!

No way can I do all that.

I have watched many videos on YouTube of guys spraying cars with waterbase paints in the USA, some under worse conditions that mine, and achieving amasing results.

I appreciate what you are saying but this is not a large job it is a touch up really and I will keep trying.

You might think that I am being stupid and I probably am but I had hoped I would get help here rather than 'let the experts do it'.

Never mind.

I will report back again in a few days.


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## mr paint

Your right its not a large job BUT your making it larger !

We have advised you of the correct way of doing it from day 1 and I have advised you of the correct way to do this repair to be acceptable from the condition its in now !


You should really follow advice given we are here to Help .


Tommy


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## supernova-dw

mr paint said:


> Your right its not a large job BUT your making it larger !
> 
> We have advised you of the correct way of doing it from day 1 and I have advised you of the correct way to do this repair to be acceptable from the condition its in now !
> 
> You should really follow advice given we are here to Help .
> 
> Tommy


I agree with this statement. At the op I'm not being funny but many people myself included have given you advice. These people are accomplished painters who know what they are doing but in a way it seems like you are not really want wanting to follow advice??


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## bluecob

Sorry Guys.

I get a sense that I am upsetting some people which I do not want to do.

I will stay away.


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## mr paint

bluecob said:


> Sorry Guys.
> 
> I get a sense that I am upsetting some people which I do not want to do.
> 
> I will stay away.


:tumbleweed::tumbleweed::tumbleweed::tumbleweed::tumbleweed::

Listen don't have to fee like that !

Take our advice that is all that's asked if you cant follow advice you need to let the pro's take over

If painting was easy everyone would be doing it !

even being doing painting for 10+ years we still get problems BUT we know we can solve them and if its to much for us we will ask advice of others then do the job as instructed to get the best possible outcome

This is just looking out for someone not having a dig

Tommy


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## bluecob

mr paint said:


> :tumbleweed::tumbleweed::tumbleweed::tumbleweed::tumbleweed::
> 
> Listen don't have to fee like that !
> 
> Take our advice that is all that's asked if you cant follow advice you need to let the pro's take over
> 
> If painting was easy everyone would be doing it !
> 
> even being doing painting for 10+ years we still get problems BUT we know we can solve them and if its to much for us we will ask advice of others then do the job as instructed to get the best possible outcome
> 
> This is just looking out for someone not having a dig
> 
> Tommy


Thank you again Tommy.

I have run out of money and cannot afford to get it to a Body Shop. My friend if happy for me to do the door as it is an old car that is only used as a convenience for visitors. That is not to say that I do not want to do my best.

I must try and spray this door with the materials that I now have. I have wasted a lot of money already on this as you know and I cannot chuck more money at it.

I have primed the door today and it is looking good. I have an offer from a local guy who used to be a Car Sprayer before he retired to come round and take a 'look see' and see if it can be resurrected.

I will keep everyone informed on how it goes and 'thank you' to everyone for trying to help.


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## bluecob

Me again, the pest.

Paint has arrived, primer all applied and rubbed down ready. Later today I will be masking up the car and hopefully applying waterbase colour either later today or tomorrow.

I will follow the advise given here but am unsure of one thing; when do I apply the lacquer/clearcoat?

Do I wait until the colour coat is completely dry say over night or do I do it pretty soon after applying the waterbase colour coat?

Thanks again.


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## Sicskate

Let it dry for 30mins, it should be Matt and dry to touch. 

Don't leave it overnight.


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## bluecob

Sicskate said:


> Let it dry for 30mins, it should be Matt and dry to touch.
> 
> Don't leave it overnight.


Ah! I was wondering about that.

Many thanks for your help.


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## robdcfc

Pinch the wifes hairdryer and dry your base with that, keep it moving and you will see the water being forced out and the colour going matt


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## bluecob

robdcfc said:


> Pinch the wifes hairdryer and dry your base with that, keep it moving and you will see the water being forced out and the colour going matt


That's a good idea. Would a hot air gun be too much? I have one of those and you can obviously keep it a distance from the car.


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## Sicskate

Yeah that will do, but don't get too close and keep it moving.


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## bluecob

You won't believe what has just happened.

The paint that I ordered from Germany was solvent based. Lucky for me it was made up ready to go as I had no thinners etc. for solvent based colour coat.

It was a dream to spray on and went well. The lacquer has dried with orange peel but hopefully this will polish out. I put on three coats of lacquer.

I am feeling a lot happier now other than the colour match. It is very near and I am hoping when it is polished up it will be OK. How long before I can buff and polish even though the makers say 40 mins?

My main problem obviously was cleaning the guns. I had some acetate which I used and it seems to have done the trick (you can buy this off Supermarket shelves here). My only problem was I got quite a bit on my hands and cleaning it off was a nightmare - burning.

Never mind all seems to be OK now.

Thanks to everyone. I still want to try and master that waterbase.

I will post some pics when the door is finished.


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## mr paint

Great stuff well done 


I would never go back to solvent now after learning water !

Leave the clear over night to through cure 40 mins is a hand dry for rough assembly of parts or push into workshop etc 

Leave over night after the hasstle you have been through don't mess it up now !


Once again well done


Tommy


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## supernova-dw

Good to hear it seems to have turned out OK now, do you have any pics?


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## bluecob

mr paint said:


> Great stuff well done
> 
> I would never go back to solvent now after learning water !
> 
> Leave the clear over night to through cure 40 mins is a hand dry for rough assembly of parts or push into workshop etc
> 
> Leave over night after the hasstle you have been through don't mess it up now !
> 
> Once again well done
> 
> Tommy


Hi Tommy

I am really pleased with the result and followed your instructions even though it was a solvent based paint. My problem now is colour match.

The waterbase paint I initially tried that I had mixed at a local garage was bang on. This paint is too 'silvery' if that makes sense. Now I have confidence would it be possible to rough up the lacquer; spray another coat of primer and go buy some of the waterbase and start again?

I know this sounds silly but I do not want to have to blend this pint into the panels each side of the door as I might just give myself more problems.

Finally, should I buff and polish what I have achieved so far first as the colour might just tone down a bit.

Thanks again.


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## bluecob

supernova-dw said:


> Good to hear it seems to have turned out OK now, do you have any pics?


Hi.

Thanks.

It is raining here but I will try and get some pics later.

Cheers.


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## mr paint

Hi colour can change due to pressure /application loads of things 

But if you feel you want to try again 

sand panel with 800g or 1200g wet then apply wb paint NO NEED TO PRIME mate 


Just remember even we will do lots of spray outs playing about with colour to get it right and will NEVER but match between 2 panels as the flake side tones are usually just that tad difference that makes the colour look off 


Good luck 


Tommy


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## bluecob

mr paint said:


> Hi colour can change due to pressure /application loads of things
> 
> But if you feel you want to try again
> 
> sand panel with 800g or 1200g wet then apply wb paint NO NEED TO PRIME mate
> 
> Just remember even we will do lots of spray outs playing about with colour to get it right and will NEVER but match between 2 panels as the flake side tones are usually just that tad difference that makes the colour look off
> 
> Good luck
> 
> Tommy


Hi Tommy

I know what you are saying. The original waterbase colour I used was really a good match. Not only did the Garage choose the colour (761) but they then had shades of that colour and he matched the paint to the other panels not the one that I was going to spray.

I will buff and polish what I have done to ensure I had the right amounts of lacquer then decide if I need to have another go now that I have confidence.


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## bluecob

Here are a couple of pics. It is a dull day here and the camera has made the new paint look a bit golden but I can assure you it is silver. You will see the colour match is not good and I hope the orange peel will buff out:


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## bluecob

*Buffing*

Hi again

Here is the next question if anyone can help.

I have tried rubbing down a bit of the orange peel with 1000 Wet & Dry and it is flattening OK BUT, it is taking ages. I have done about 6 sq in and been at it an hour. At this rate it is going to take me weeks flattening this door. I am sure the pros. don't take this long, so:

Can it be done with a power tool?

If so what pastes etc. should I get?

I don't want to go burning through the lacquer - I already have on an edge but this can be sorted.

Also, are there any other tips anyone can give doing this?

Thanks again.

P.S. I hope anyone reading my adventure considering doing the same will get encouragement as, even though I have had problems, it is something that you can do.


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## Sicskate

Leave it a bit longer to dry first. 

What grade paper did you use?


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## bluecob

Sicskate said:


> Leave it a bit longer to dry first.
> 
> What grade paper did you use?


Hi

2000 did not touch it.

1000 Very hard work

600 much better but rubbed through to the primer in a couple of places on curves. Can I 'blow in' some paint then lacquer in these parts?

The colour appears to be getting better though.


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## supernova-dw

Flatting is a very time consuming process! I wouldn't use p1000 on it, this is a bit course.

If doing it by hand then you should be using p1500 or p2000 as polishing p1000 marks out will be hard to say the least...

It is very time consuming but just continue onwards using a hard block. If you have a DA then you could use this with p1500 on and go over it wet with this.


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## bluecob

supernova-dw said:


> Flatting is a very time consuming process! I wouldn't use p1000 on it, this is a bit course.
> 
> If doing it by hand then you should be using p1500 or p2000 as polishing p1000 marks out will be hard to say the least...
> 
> It is very time consuming but just continue onwards using a hard block. If you have a DA then you could use this with p1500 on and go over it wet with this.


Do you think I will have ruined it now using 600? If I use 1200 or 2000 will it bring it back?


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## mr paint

800 the door and start again ...no point spotting in areas ...the colour is miles off and as you said the water colour was better !


When you come to flatten the clear next time .... 

1500g at min then 2000g all by hand with a block 

do you have a rotory polisher and compound ?


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## Sicskate

Ever get the feeling you're chasing your tail?


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## bluecob

Sicskate said:


> Ever get the feeling you're chasing your tail?


Sorry, but not everyone is as experienced as you. I apologise for being thick but I thought this is what this Forum was for, to get help. If my questions are annoying you then don't read them.

I am getting enough grief from the Wife about this, I don't need any more here.


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## supernova-dw

bluecob said:


> Do you think I will have ruined it now using 600? If I use 1200 or 2000 will it bring it back?


Yep your going to have to start again I'm afraid. As has been said by Mr paint flat it all down with P600/P800 Wet and start again... The paint match was not correct so needed 're doing anyhow.

The main thing is that you have managed to get a decent finish now and had a bit of practice so use it as a lesson and continue onwards.

After 're doing the paint and lacquer leave it overnight and flat it down the next day. Your best of using P2000 Wet and be careful around the edges, it does take a long time, make sure you keep it nice and wet and put a bit of soap in the water.

Once all flatted and smooth you need to use an orbital polisher with G3 or similar compound to bring the shine back up.


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## bluecob

supernova-dw said:


> Yep your going to have to start again I'm afraid. As has been said by Mr paint flat it all down with P600/P800 Wet and start again... The paint match was not correct so needed 're doing anyhow.
> 
> The main thing is that you have managed to get a decent finish now and had a bit of practice so use it as a lesson and continue onwards.
> 
> After 're doing the paint and lacquer leave it overnight and flat it down the next day. Your best of using P2000 Wet and be careful around the edges, it does take a long time, make sure you keep it nice and wet and put a bit of soap in the water.
> 
> Once all flatted and smooth you need to use an orbital polisher with G3 or similar compound to bring the shine back up.


Thanks' supernova.

I don't mind having to do it again as I am enjoying doing this and if nothing else have learned a lot with all your help.

I would have re-done it anyway as the colour match was not good even though I purchased the correct colour. Why things differ I have no idea. A bit like sizes in clothes I suppose. I also did not want to 'blend' into the adjoining panels for fear of messing them up as well.

Anyway, I will go get some of the original colour (waterbase) this PM and re-do over the weekend.

I realised one thing when flattening the lacquer, I had not put enough on and was rubbing through it. Any guide as to how many coats of lacquer there should be?


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## mr paint

3 coats of clear will work for you mate 


1 at a time tho !

:thumb:


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## bluecob

Thanks.

Went to get paint and the Guy is on holiday until Monday so will take a rest from it.

I bet I still fiddle though!


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## supernova-dw

bluecob said:


> Thanks' supernova.
> 
> I don't mind having to do it again as I am enjoying doing this and if nothing else have learned a lot with all your help.
> 
> I would have re-done it anyway as the colour match was not good even though I purchased the correct colour. Why things differ I have no idea. A bit like sizes in clothes I suppose. I also did not want to 'blend' into the adjoining panels for fear of messing them up as well.
> 
> Anyway, I will go get some of the original colour (waterbase) this PM and re-do over the weekend.
> 
> I realised one thing when flattening the lacquer, I had not put enough on and was rubbing through it. Any guide as to how many coats of lacquer there should be?


Good to hear you are enjoying yourself  as for applying lacquer you most probably rubbed through it due to using too course a paper, you should apply one 'tack' coat (approx 30% Coverage) and then two normal thick coats.

To be honest I think you will find it nigh impossible to get a perfect match colour wise with out blending.... You need to blend in to the adjacent panels really...


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## mr paint

Yup as above grip and RIP coats

then you end up with this straight out the gun


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## bluecob

mr paint said:


> Yup as above grip and RIP coats
> 
> then you end up with this straight out the gun


AMAZING!

That is brilliant and if only I could achieve that finish. Perhaps practicing will make perfect.

Would you like to pop over to France and do this door for me? I will put you up for a week free in return.


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## bluecob

Me again

Yesterday I went to a paint shop suppliers over here for something to do and chatting to the man he said he could mix me up a spray can exactly the colour of my car.

Knowing the problems I have had matching the colour I bought a can to check it out and, would you believe it, it is bang on.

I am going back tomorrow to see if he can sell me some in a tin so I can use it through my spray gun but if not I am tempted to get a couple more cans and do this bloody door with them.

What do you think?

Any tips?


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## squiggs

I wish I could get a silver mixed, try it from a rattle can and it be bang on - I'd hang my guns up and never use my paint system again :lol:

There are many variables that change how a silver appears on the panel including gun set up, air pressure, spraying distance and how light and/or heavy the coats are.

As all the above can vary the shade there is no such thing as a silver being a 'perfect match' - but they do get better if you happen to be a very experienced professional.

Which is why some very experienced people have hinted that at the very least you'll need to blend into the adjacent panels - or better still get it done professionally.

Good luck though - I look forward to the eventual outcome.


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## bluecob

*Update*

Hi Guys

I haven't posted for a while not wanting to bore people.

I managed to workout spraying the door with colour coat and lacquer after a couple more disasters. The end result was great and I was pleased. Perhaps not up to everyones standard but OK for me.

However, on flattening (rubbing out the orange peel) where the door has a curve I managed to rub through to the paint and beyond before I realised it. I tried touching it up but this was a disaster.

I have sanded down the door again, will rectify a couple of things I saw when the lacquer was on that I did not see until then, and then re-spray again hopefully over the weekend.

I put three light coats of lacquer on and this was obviously not enough. I used light coats for fear of runs which happened to me before.

Any suggestions as to how many coats of lacquer to apply (thinly)?

One other question; how do you buff/polish those hard to get at areas like behind door handles?


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## bluecob

*A Couple Of Pictures*

Car door primed ready for rubbing down then spraying:


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## supernova-dw

Just two quick pointers:

1) No need to prime as you did 

2) One light 'grip' coat of lacquer and then two wet coats to bring up a nice shine.


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## mr paint

You need to set the pressure at 2bar or above for nice flow out on the clear ....depending on the gun set up ?

As above you don't need to prime before you apply paint if you put much more paint and primer on that door the car will sit lop sided !!!



Good show tho !


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## bluecob

mr paint said:


> You need to set the pressure at 2bar or above for nice flow out on the clear ....depending on the gun set up ?
> 
> As above you don't need to prime before you apply paint if you put much more paint and primer on that door the car will sit lop sided !!!
> 
> Good show tho !


Hi again.

I know what you mean about the paint and the car leaning. 

I have an LVLP gun, what pressure would you recommend for this. My Compressor is 2 HP 50lt so not big.


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## mr paint

Sorry I cant comment on this as I have never used one before


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## squiggs

I'd put some more layers on if I was you.
After the 20th coating of whatever you'll only be about 2mm proud.
Given time, once all the solvents have gone - some small parts might not delaminate and they might actually resemble the original.


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## bluecob

squiggs said:


> I'd put some more layers on if I was you.
> After the 20th coating of whatever you'll only be about 2mm proud.
> Given time, once all the solvents have gone - some small parts might not delaminate and they might actually resemble the original.


I have put on six coats. Do you think that will be enough? It looks good.

I wouldn't mid some tips on flattening (getting rid of orange peel) and buffing.

Cheers.


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## mr paint

do you have a polisher?


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## bluecob

mr paint said:


> do you have a polisher?


Hi

I have the following:


electric buffer/polisher 180mm with sponge pads and wool bonnet (Silverline) 
 5" pads for my electric drill
an air polisher/grinder
1000, 1200, 2000 wet&dry
Quick cut grinding paste
Scratch remover (like T cut).
Polish
My problem is getting to those bits like behind the handle, curves on the door etc. Last time I got this far on the top curve below the window I rubbed through before removing the orange peel. You need some pressure to remove it but on curves it is hard.


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## Sicskate

Leave the paint for a week before you start trying to rectify it. 

I wouldn't worry too much about under the handle, it's the last place anyone will be looking for defects.


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## bluecob

*Finished - or have I?*

*Finished*

I am calling it a day on this project as I have virtually finished it now and if I keep fiddling I will only mess it up and have to start again.

The dent in the door has gone but there were several others which only became apparent when the clear coat was put on. I did not notice these as they were small otherwise I would have done them as well. I think some powerful light might have shown them up but to the eye and feel they could not be seen.

If I had to do it again I would be happy as I have learned a lot.

A big 'thank you' to everyone who helped.

Here are a couple of pics. It was the rear door:



















Can I ask a final question.

The wheel trims (hub caps) are plastic I think and I have resprayed them as well but the paint keeps peeling off. Is there something I should be doing or using a different paint?

Thanks.


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## Sicskate

Looks like you've managed to do a pretty decent job. 

With regards to the wheel trims, you'll need to spray them with an adhesion aid or plastic primer, it will come in an aerosol and will be clear when it comes out.


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## Andyb0127

Looks good should be proud of yourself, as you've persevered with it and got a result your happy with. Spraying is a learning curve even us pro's make mistakes and learn new things all the time. One thing about this forum mate you've got some skilled painters on here who would always help with advice. As for the wheel trims you a plastic primer which is available in aerosol form, when you use it just one light coat over the bare plastic allow five mins to dry, then apply your primer as normal. :thumb:


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## squiggs

Hats off


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## bluecob

*More Help Please*

Guys

I know I am an idiot and I should have left well alone but there were a couple of marks on the door, one near the door opening top edge and one at the top/middle of the panel.

I tried to rub them out and blow in some of the paint that I had made up as an aerosol and, surprise surprise, I have made it worse.

Hopefully you professional body shop people will have an answer without having to do the whole door again - please.


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## CD Cornwall

It's a re-work I'm afraid. Putting aerosol over fresh paint is a no no as it contains a high level of solvent and what does solvent do to fresh lacquer?..... it stuffs it - thats what.

Cheers
David


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## bluecob

CD Cornwall said:


> It's a re-work I'm afraid. Putting aerosol over fresh paint is a no no as it contains a high level of solvent and what does solvent do to fresh lacquer?..... it stuffs it - thats what.
> 
> Cheers
> David


Ah well. I thought that.

I don't mind really as I am now enjoying it. Must remember to put more paint/lacquer on the curves and edges.

Could I not just do the top half of the door and if so how?

I have ordered some blender which I have seen used on YouTube.


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## bluecob

Seems like no one is wanting to help any more which I understand. I have learned such a lot from this Forum.

I tried sorting out the 'rubbing' problem I had and as suggested no joy so today I re-did the door. I knew what I was doing, found it logical and as I had been there before knew the pitfalls. I think I have ended up with my best effort yet.

I will leave it a few days before sanding and buffing.

I won't bother you any more so 'thanks again'. Keep up the wonderful help and if anyone wants a car door spraying you know where to come. :lol:


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## Tintin

This isn't the most active part of the site so it often takes a few days to get a response. It looks like you have persevered and ended up doing a decent job. I would be thrilled if my first painting job came out like that, especially on a metallic finish.


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## bluecob

Tintin said:


> This isn't the most active part of the site so it often takes a few days to get a response. It looks like you have persevered and ended up doing a decent job. I would be thrilled if my first painting job came out like that, especially on a metallic finish.


Thanks Tintin, it is appreciated.

Update - I placed an advert in our local on line message board for an old car that I could practice spraying on and not only was I offered many but three people asked if I would be interested in doing a re-spray for them, not worried too much about the outcome.

Amasing.

One of these cars was a 40 year old MGB.

Anyway, because the weather is changing here, I am trying to set up a spray booth in my large shed with plastic sheeting. It is not too bad but I now worry that, as the temp outside is dropping and moisture increasing, I will have problems. I might shelve it until next year.


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