# Why Storm Drains Matter....Pt.1



## Bigpikle

One really important area of 'Eco-Friendly Detailing' for me is the run-off and pollution that can arise from the various foaming and washing techniques that most of us on here use.

One thing that has been very enlightening for me has been learning more about why this is important and what in fact are the problems. In various discussions on here and elsewhere, I have become aware that many, like me until fairly recently, have no idea what happens to the water and waste product that gets into the drains in our streets. It is a common misconception that these drains are treated and the output from them is 'cleaned' of any chemical and pollution risks. *THIS IS NOT TRUE*.

Now, many people have not believed me when I have talked about this so it gave me the idea for this thread. I did a little bit of research and decided to find out exactly where the waste water from my house and street end up....

So, the start. The gutters from my house and my neighbours feed into here, at the bottom of my driveway...










This drain picks up all the water run-off in the street from several drains like this one, just a few feet from the end of my driveway, and where all the water drains from mine and my neighbours driveways/detailing areas... If you look closely in the picture above you can actually see the stains on the asphalt caused by the run-off from washing my cars 










It then continues down the road into here, which is only about 100m from my house... The water level is unusually high as we had torrential rain last night that delivered several days worth of heavy rain in < 30 mins :doublesho Note the hi-tech filtering before the water leaves the drain :lol:










This stream runs for about 500m and becomes this...and notice the additional drain feeding directly into the water supply - do you see any cleaning/filtering going on here?










This stream gets a little bigger and collects waste water from many more streets as it runs for about another 600m and becomes this...










and 20m from here it feeds into the main river flowing through our town park here...



















which is 10m from this...










I took this picture to illustrate the fact that this river is teeming with fish and wildlife. Best of all I have seen Kingfishers fishing on that stretch, as well as blokes in beanie hats, and there have been numerous otter sightings there as well in the last few years. It obviously has the usual habitat of river voles and other animals along its stretch, and many people let their dogs in there as well.

So, the journey is a short one, about 1200m from my driveway to this lovely river. The foam that runs off my car only has to travel 1200m before it is being used to clean the fish, otters, Kingfisher's dinners and other wildlife that lives there.

I live in a typical small town, with many modern housing developments around it, just like the vast majority of people do. I am willing to bet the drains at the bottom of your driveways or outside your houses do the EXACT same journey, and NOWHERE along the entire journey is there any filtering, cleaning or other precautions to remove the chemicals that get washed in there. The Environment Agency clearly state that NOTHING except uncontaminated rainwater should enter surface drains - I think its pretty clear why now....

In Pt 2 I'll show you some research to show that even properly diluted car wash products have an impact on the environment and wildlife when washed into drains just like mine and yours 

Damon


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## Trist

Interesting post, I'm tempted to do the same in my area!


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## grant_evans

very interesting read


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## Cliff

Good post Bigpikle :thumb:

People should also be careful when they decide to 'move' their washing machines etc as I have come across these that have been put into RW drains and even into unsuitable soakaways


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## S63

Interesting post and very thought provoking. Regardless of any claims made by certain manufacturers that a particular product is 100% enviromentally friendly, I will always be sceptical. It raises the moral question, is the cleanliness of your car more important than the possible damage it may cause to the enviroment. Can I feel any less guilty living in London watching all my suds flow into the sewer system going direct to filtering plants?


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## Bigpikle

S500 said:


> Interesting post and very thought provoking. Regardless of any claims made by certain manufacturers that a particular product is 100% enviromentally friendly, I will always be sceptical. It raises the moral question, is the cleanliness of your car more important than the possible damage to the enviroment. Can I feel any less guilty living in London watching all my suds flow into the sewer system going direct to filtering plants?


:thumb:

'biodegradable' is a term I see widely used, and many think it means 'safe to the environment' and get a false feeling of security  All it means is that the product can be broken down by other living organisms. It doesnt mean its safe to be in rivers, lakes, your water etc.

If your surface drains flow into treated facilities, and a small % do apparently, then I guess the issue is largely resolved. From what I have read though VERY few people have that option.

I think its always a choice to decide what we do. Our own values are what we use to make that choice. Right now, I have a growing priority of being as green as possible. It doesnt mean I will stop owning a car, flying round the world on business to earn a living etc, but it does mean that where I can make a difference I will do my best. I only fly if absolutely necessary, walk to the local Tesco 1 mile away when I can, and now choose not to pollute my local stream and river with foam each weekend.... I still want to detail my cars though, but have made choices about how I do that so I can still achieve the results I want but without the 'cost' of pollution that I used to unknowingly create. The great thing is we could all do just as well without gallons of foam each weekend but most people havent seen how yet 

Edit: interesting article on what 'biodegradable' actually means...or doesnt


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## Dave Richardson

Interesting post, & carefully investigated

Makes you think!!!!!

Dave


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## Mixman

Good investigating.

What you've followed is a surface water drain. This water will come from perhaps your gutters and and sinks and obviously anything from the road or drive that you rinse off. 

Obviously this goes, as you say, into the river, eventually. But look at the river! A little water from cleaning your car will be diluted a million to one at least! And the fishermen wouldn't be there if the river wasn't clean enough to have fish live there :thumb:

I'm all for biodegradeable products and eco friendly but I don't get worried about what little pollutants I may possibly put in the watercourse!


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## Bigpikle

Mixman said:


> Good investigating.
> 
> What you've followed is a surface water drain. This water will come from perhaps your gutters and and sinks and obviously anything from the road or drive that you rinse off.
> 
> Obviously this goes, as you say, into the river, eventually. But look at the river! A little water from cleaning your car will be diluted a million to one at least! And the fishermen wouldn't be there if the river wasn't clean enough to have fish live there :thumb:
> 
> I'm all for biodegradeable products and eco friendly but I don't get worried about what little pollutants I may possibly put in the watercourse!


wait till you see Pt2

Pm sent


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## caledonia

Mixman said:


> Good investigating.
> 
> What you've followed is a surface water drain. This water will come from perhaps your gutters and and sinks and obviously anything from the road or drive that you rinse off.
> 
> Obviously this goes, as you say, into the river, eventually.!


This is true to an extent. Only water from gutters and the road way will feed into the river unfiltered. Sinks are normally connected to your Foul stack. Which in turn should lead to a water treatment plant for purification. But one thing to remember here also. A lot of the waste pipe and sewers are years old, and are very hard to maintain. This can cause problems with seepage and inturn find its way into the water ways also.
Take this into account does not give you leeway to empty everything down the drains or toilets.

Gordon.


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## In a state

> Can I feel any less guilty living in London watching all my suds flow into the sewer system going direct to filtering plants?


I wouldn't worry about Londons water as we all know you guys have probably drunk it 4 or five times already before you washed you car with it.


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## Mixman

I could tell a story about how many times the water in London has gone in and out of the Thames by way of baths/toilets/water taps then back through the taps :lol:


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## -ROM-

Out of the chemicals in our products that are potentially harmful i'd be interested to know how many parts per million they make up after such a 1200m run and how those figures compare to existing research/legislation on what is considered harmful.


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## Mixman

caledonia said:


> This is true to an extent. Only water from gutters and the road way will feed into the river unfiltered. Sinks are normally connected to your Foul stack. Which in turn should lead to a water treatment plant for purification. But one thing to remember here also. A lot of the waste pipe and sewers are years old, and are very hard to maintain. This can cause problems with seepage and inturn find its way into the water ways also.
> Take this into account does not give you leeway to empty everything down the drains or toilets.
> 
> Gordon.


I respect your opinions Gordon but everyone can't go around thinking about the state of their drains and if they are good/bad and if they will leak into watercourses etc etc It's all what if's and I'm not going to waste my time thinking 'What If' all the time.

All I can do is minimise the 'damage' I do with the products I use. I know I have a combined sewer and all my 'waste' goes down to the local sewage works. Unless it's storm conditions, and then it overflows into the river, as well as everything else from the town I live in. I can't be held responsible for the state of the drains themselves!

Now I'm all for bio-degradeable/eco-friendly products but I'm not going to worry about things beyond my control!


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## caledonia

Mixman I was not getting at you with my comments. I was only make a comment regarding the problems with the drainage system in this country. As you have rightly said all that can be expected of you is. That you do your own part. 
And by the sounds of this you do.

It is never going to be easy to find a balance to this problem And people are alway going to clean there cars. But a bit of common sense and thinking. Can go a long way also.

It is so easy for people to point there finger and turn the other cheek. When problems arise. Many be this also can be said for the water companies. Who could be said they are trying to recoup so of the costs. Where in turn if they fixed there problems, it would be to a leaser extent.

But how is right and wrong. All that can be done is to be conses and think what impact things can have on the environment.
At the moment there is not a lot of bio degradable product (in the true sense) that work as we require. So in turn we have to be aware and try and take as much precaution's as possible


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## DaveDesign

I understand perfectly that water from storm drains ends up in rivers and streams and would like to change my wash routine to help prevent it, But the big issue for me is what else can I do to stop it, There is a storm drain right at the end of my drive and most, but not all for sure runs into this, along with me emptying and rinsing wash buckets into it. I could cover the drain to stop my waste entering it but is it environmentally more friendly just sitting in the road and probably *****ing the neighbors having to drive through puddles of dirty wash water?

I suppose the point of my post is what sensible and low cost options are there to capture waste water. I see one of the detailer's from here uses a mat with inflatable sides which I assume drains off to a collection point. But this wouldn't be practical for me to store waste water and pay to have it collected and Recycled as it were.


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## Mixman

caledonia said:


> Mixman I was not getting at you with my comments. I was only make a comment regarding the problems with the drainage system in this country. As you have rightly said all that can be expected of you is. That you do your own part.
> And by the sounds of this you do.
> 
> It is never going to be easy to find a balance to this problem And people are alway going to clean there cars. But a bit of common sense and thinking. Can go a long way also.
> 
> It is so easy for people to point there finger and turn the other cheek. When problems arise. Many be this also can be said for the water companies. Who could be said they are trying to recoup so of the costs. Where in turn if they fixed there problems, it would be to a leaser extent.
> 
> But how is right and wrong. All that can be done is to be conses and think what impact things can have on the environment.
> At the moment there is not a lot of bio degradable product (in the true sense) that work as we require. So in turn we have to be aware and try and take as much precaution's as possible


I know you wasn't getting at me bud, just voicing my opinions as you are :thumb:

All drains don't belong to the water companies. Lots belong to the council. And also the EA police the waterways and, if there is a problem, they are fined a hell of a lot of money so it is in the interests of the water companies/councils to fix the drains when found to be leaking before getting 'caught' by the EA.

This doesn't get done for free but the water companies do rely on the public to report leaking sewers as monitoring of these sewage networks is very difficult! So if you know of leaking sewers or illegal discharges to water courses, please report them! ASAP!!

The EA and OFWAT reports affect the points system by which a water company can increase it's charges by. So of course, it's again in the best interests of the water companies to have the fewest reportable incidents to the EA, the least leakage of the water network for OFWAT.

We all should be responsible and it's always going to be a hotly disputed topic. Should I rinse away the residue or would this be wasting water?


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## mattsbmw

DaveDesign said:


> I suppose the point of my post is what sensible and low cost options are there to capture waste water. I see one of the detailer's from here uses a mat with inflatable sides which I assume drains off to a collection point. But this wouldn't be practical for me to store waste water and pay to have it collected and Recycled as it were.


You could collect the waste water then tip it down the foul drain so that it goes through the filteration procces


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## k6gixer




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## caledonia

Something I have been looking at is charcoal filters. It is feasible as far a wash buckets are concerned. Foam and the products that level the car. Is cause me the most head aches.
As for the wash buckets I have been using the old charcoal from the BQ. When its cool crush it up and i empty it into a 25 ltr plastic tub with a very small hole in the bottom. Which in turn should help remove some of the chemical with in the water, as it trickles through this. Charcoal has been used for this in aquariums for years. Removing chemicals and certain toxins within the water. But like everything else it reaches saturation point and then needs changing. Other wise it will start to leach back out.


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## Bigpikle

DaveDesign said:


> I understand perfectly that water from storm drains ends up in rivers and streams and would like to change my wash routine to help prevent it, But the big issue for me is what else can I do to stop it, There is a storm drain right at the end of my drive and most, but not all for sure runs into this, along with me emptying and rinsing wash buckets into it. I could cover the drain to stop my waste entering it but is it environmentally more friendly just sitting in the road and probably *****ing the neighbors having to drive through puddles of dirty wash water?
> 
> I suppose the point of my post is what sensible and low cost options are there to capture waste water. I see one of the detailer's from here uses a mat with inflatable sides which I assume drains off to a collection point. But this wouldn't be practical for me to store waste water and pay to have it collected and Recycled as it were.


good questions :thumb:

firstly STOP emptying buckets in them - put them down a sink or even toilet as that goes to a treated water plant with the rest of your sewage etc 

Secondly, you could over drains but better still is to avoid run-off waste in the first place. There are lots of ways of doing this and I hope to get some threads up in the coming weeks, but simply put:

1. pre-rinse with plain water and no chemicals like foam etc

2. use rinseless wash options like Optimum No Rinse or PB QEW - uses water but smaller amounts and doesnt need gallons and gallons of rinse water that puts all those suds on the floor

3. consider waterless options - not really been there yet and know many many are junk, but I have some en route that are highly regarded pro products

watch this space for more options but it really means re-evaluating product and technique choices but NO MORE EMPTYING BUCKETS INTO DRAINS!


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## DaveDesign

So down the sink it is with wash buckets it is for a start then....... But I'm not so sure that is the correct thing to do either......Not sure what information the provider would need or the possibilities for penalties being put against me after looking into such a thing and making myself and property known, I'm not a business but the law is the law and regulations the regulations..............

3. Requirements for all vehicle washing and cleaning activities​Activities that produce run-off from the vehicle onto the ground and use cleaning and valeting products should
be carried out in areas that are clearly marked and isolated from surface water drainage systems, unmade ground
and porous surfaces. These areas are called​*designated washing bays*.
 
A designated washing bay should be designed so that run-off is:
• isolated using channels, gullies, gradient (fall on the surface) and kerbs
• directed to a silt trap or settlement tank to remove larger particles of silt and sediment
• either collected in a sealed system for reuse, *discharged to the public foul sewer with prior permission*​
*of the local sewer provider* or collected in a sealed system for authorised disposal.



Taken from here:
http://publications.environment-agency.gov.uk/pdf/PMHO0307BMDX-e-e.pdf


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## Bigpikle

DaveDesign said:


> So down the sink it is with wash buckets it is for a start then....... But I'm not so sure that is the correct thing to do either......Not sure what information the provider would need or the possibilities for penalties being put against me after looking into such a thing and making myself and property known, I'm not a business but the law is the law and regulations the regulations..............
> 
> 3. Requirements for all vehicle washing and cleaning activities​Activities that produce run-off from the vehicle onto the ground and use cleaning and valeting products should
> be carried out in areas that are clearly marked and isolated from surface water drainage systems, unmade ground
> and porous surfaces. These areas are called​*designated washing bays*.
> 
> A designated washing bay should be designed so that run-off is:
> • isolated using channels, gullies, gradient (fall on the surface) and kerbs
> • directed to a silt trap or settlement tank to remove larger particles of silt and sediment
> • either collected in a sealed system for reuse, *discharged to the public foul sewer with prior permission*​
> *of the local sewer provider* or collected in a sealed system for authorised disposal.
> 
> 
> 
> Taken from here:
> http://publications.environment-agency.gov.uk/pdf/PMHO0307BMDX-e-e.pdf


but those regs DO only apply to a business - hence the need to have an approved 'trade disposal point'....

Quote:

"It doesn't cover household activities..."

It would be considered 'best practice' but PPG13 is for businesses that clean stuff. You pay your standard domestic water charges to dispose of domestic water waste - if you were a business they would charge you extra for the privilege of disposing of 'trade effluent' so hence the need to have it approved.


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## DaveDesign

Sweet, So in summary for domestic use, down the foul drain it goes! 
I pay enough for drainage/sewage charge in my bill!

The next step for me is an affordable collection system to allow me to put wash run-off down the sink/toilet instead of sitting on the drive/street, or down a storm drain.

Will be keeping my eyes peeled.

Cheers Damon, keep up the good work:thumb:


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## swiftshine

The drive for environmental friendliness in car washing is very laudable, and may just be preparation for when legislation comes in enforcing EP policy's, but, how bad for the environment are the chemicals we actually use?

I live in a very rural area. When I wash my car on the driveway most of the run off drains into the grass in front of my house. What cannot be absorbed by the grass runs down the road next to the grass, then crosses the road and runs into the hedgerow bordering the field in front of my house. Even after lots of rain as we had last summer my wash water never travels more than 25 yards before it all finds ground to soak into. There is no evidence of any of the grass or plants in the hedgerow suffering from chemical pollution. The cows and sheep in the field are all fine, and there seems to be no decrease in the rabbit population, who are regularly seen munching on the very grass my wash water runs into.
I know that is not exactly scientific evidence, but if the foam and shampoos that I use on my car were badly polluting, then surely there would be some evidence? When in other cases the water flows into water courses and is diluted massively, then I would suspect from what I have seen, that any environmental damage would be minimal in the extreme.

Just another angle


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## reign

thank you for the post. that was quite enlightening. I would like to add that water can naturally cleanse itself every 100 feet, especially over rocks. This being said, i would still recommend for everyone to cover the drains while detailing their cars, and using the block/berm method to collect the water and dispose of it down your nearest foul drain.


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## little john

I'm going to go buy a smart car so I can wash it in the sink or does any manufacturer make removable panels clip on not bolted on? I could put them in the dishwasher then.
Maybe even detail them indoors out of the cold then refit them after, what a good idea that is.


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## Typhoon

So what was on Sky 3 yesterday...Filth Files from OZ...topic getting all bodyshops to collect waste water in wash trays and pump to foul drain...seems its law there...


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## Bigpikle

little john said:


> I'm going to go buy a smart car so I can wash it in the sink or does any manufacturer make removable panels clip on not bolted on? I could put them in the dishwasher then.
> Maybe even detail them indoors out of the cold then refit them after, what a good idea that is.


nice idea...



Typhoon said:


> So what was on Sky 3 yesterday...Filth Files from OZ...topic getting all bodyshops to collect waste water in wash trays and pump to foul drain...seems its law there...


...tis law here too


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## g3rey

I guess I am one of the lucky ones, waste water from my drive collects, via a yard gully into a soakaway in the garden (pretty common since the 1960's in London). What's more the soakaway is no where near any watercourse, underground stream, swallow hole, etc. That said, I am very interested in the ecology and sustainability, but still cannot abide the concept of products traveling half way around the world in plastic containers as eco. Sorry.


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## Lloyd71

This is a very informative and interesting topic, thanks for the information! I can't wait to read the next part, it's certainly food for thought. I'll be tipping my dirty water down the drain in the back garden from now on, that's where all of my sinks drain to.


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## bidderman1969

would be intrested to know the solutions to this


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## nismohks

Is there anywhere on the internet you can look up where your drains lead to ?
The drains in and around my house are all connected together. Toilet drains get treated right ? so does this mean all the drains get treated ?
thanks


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## Bigpikle

nismohks said:


> Is there anywhere on the internet you can look up where your drains lead to ?
> The drains in and around my house are all connected together. Toilet drains get treated right ? so does this mean all the drains get treated ?
> thanks


start with your water company is probably best, but they may not have any detailed info on your house. I dont think there is any way of knowing except to have them surveyed, but MOST drains have separate systems for surface water (gutters, ground drains etc) and foul water (toilets, washing machine waste, sinks etc). Usually only foul water systems are treated. It will also depend slightly on the age of your house/street as to what type of drains were built originally. It seems London has some differences as well, but I havent found out anything specifically about those yet...

I only know what I have read doing research through Google etc and in some conversations with the Environment Agency etc. I dont plan on becoming a drains expert, as I have learned enough to identify the issue. My energy from now will be put into some workable solutions so I can keep detailing without any pollution risks.


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## Griff

In my experience (as a Plumber/ Heating engineer) The vast majority of newer homes have only foul water drainage with some having surface water channelled to soakaways
it all comes down to cost, its much cheaper to run the whole lot into foul water. My own home is all foul water built in the 50's
Tom


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## reparebrise

bidderman1969 said:


> would be intrested to know the solutions to this


There are many solutions to this, the first and most important is recognizing that it needs to change.

There are many ways to reduce your negative impact on your childrens environment(I consider that the earth is on loan to us by future generations, and we should do what we can to return it to them in better shape than when we found it).

To start eliminate those very wastefull snow foam techniques.

Another step in the right direction would be to use a rinseless or waterless product (there are to many to list on the market, suffice it to say you should prefer one that contains no petrochemicals, but does contain surfactants and polymers). Not only do they in many cases provide a superior result, but also for the professional valeter they save a consiserable amount of labor.

For those who refuse to give up there foam lance and pressure washer a capture mat is a possibility, and one that can be made at home quite easily.(A friend of mine had his spouce sew a large pocket all the way around a tarpaulin, in that pocket he inserted a fire hose, with the ends sealed off, using compressed air he fills the hose, creating a small childs pool of sorts , and this contains the waste).

I know that Damon has done his homework on the subject, and if I can help in any way it will be my pleasure.

At Your Service

Yvan

Please Join the IDA at www.the-ida.com


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## Bigpikle

reparebrise said:


> There are many solutions to this, the first and most important is recognizing that it needs to change.
> 
> There are many ways to reduce your negative impact on your childrens environment(I consider that the earth is on loan to us by future generations, and we should do what we can to return it to them in better shape than when we found it).
> 
> To start eliminate those very wastefull snow foam techniques.
> 
> Another step in the right direction would be to use a rinseless or waterless product (there are to many to list on the market, suffice it to say you should prefer one that contains no petrochemicals, but does contain surfactants and polymers). Not only do they in many cases provide a superior result, but also for the professional valeter they save a consiserable amount of labor.
> 
> For those who refuse to give up there foam lance and pressure washer a capture mat is a possibility, and one that can be made at home quite easily.(A friend of mine had his spouce sew a large pocket all the way around a tarpaulin, in that pocket he inserted a fire hose, with the ends sealed off, using compressed air he fills the hose, creating a small childs pool of sorts , and this contains the waste).
> 
> I know that Damon has done his homework on the subject, and if I can help in any way it will be my pleasure.
> 
> At Your Service
> 
> Yvan
> 
> Please Join the IDA at www.the-ida.com


thanks Yvan - and welcome to DW :thumb:


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## swiftshine

reparebrise said:


> To start eliminate those very wastefull snow foam techniques.


I don't quite understand what you mean here

Can you explain why snow foaming is wastefull please?

I thought that snow foaming was actually less wastefull than using an ordinary hosepipe for a pre-wash routine.


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## Bigpikle

swiftshine said:


> I don't quite understand what you mean here
> 
> Can you explain why snow foaming is wastefull please?
> 
> I thought that snow foaming was actually less wastefull than using an ordinary hosepipe for a pre-wash routine.


50-100L of water and foam down the drain...

less wasteful is NO pre-rinse, and NO rinse afterwards, and there are several very safe ways to do it 

Some figures claim a PW uses LESS water than a hose as it does it quicker, but still chucks out 5-10L/min. I can now wash my cars in total with 10L!


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## Holden_C04

This is a big part of why I use Optimum No Rinse...apart from the fact it takes 1/4 of the setup time of a conventional wash, leaves the paint slicker/glossier (as well as streak-free glass), and I can wash indoors on anything but the most frigid of days.


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## bidderman1969

but, i seem to remember the "no water" wash systems, well, no getting any good reviews, and possible causing swirls, i also thought that snowfoaming helps towards as near as possible for a touch free wash, hence helping t reduce the risk of damaging paintwork, so im trying to weigh up the pro's and cons to all of this.


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## reparebrise

Bidderman

Great question and observation.

As with any style of wash the marring and swirls are not caused by the media, but the user. If one is carefull washing with a waterless or rinseless wash has proven safer for the paint, and of course the environment.

Suds, and foam provide a psycological safety, not a physical one.

A good waterless wash product works in 3 ways to safeguard your paint.

As a first line of defense the surfactants in the product attack rapidly the dirt and dust to emulsify it. In laymans terms the produst breaksdown the dirt, whole at the same time surrounding it with a layer of protection.

The second line of defense comes form the polymer that protects the paint surface by attaching itself to the paint(this protection stays after the wash offering protection comperable to that of a last step spray wax)

Finaly is ionic(static electricity) attraction. A waterless and rinseless was has zwitterions(ions that are at the same time pos and neg). This allows the polymers to be both attrracted to the dirt and the surface at the same time. In relation witha MF towel that has been machine dryed both the polymer and the dirt are attracted to the towel.

Unfortunatly the vidoes on youtube show a very bad wash method. They apply the product unevenly(using a trigger sprayer) and wipe the surface off in broad, repetative circular motoins, and this I can tell you will definatly scratch and mar the surface. When working with waterless products the surface needs to be lightly and evenly coated(to allow the surfactants to work), and the removal of the dirt should be done in light linear strokes, the inital wiping can be imagined as lifting the dirt from the surface. The final pass is done to buff the polymer protectant to a shine, this is done using a clean dry MF towel, and if this towel does not stay clean it indicates that the first step was not done correctly.

Once our outside temperature rises to an acceptable level(current temp is -15c) I will take it upon myself to make a short how to video and post it on youtube.

Here are some pics of my daily driver(with winter rims) before during and after a wash. The car currently has 70000kms, and shows no sign of eccesive wear or scratching, this despite never being water washed, polished, or waxed.


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## Bigpikle

bidderman1969 said:


> but, i seem to remember the "no water" wash systems, well, no getting any good reviews, and possible causing swirls, i also thought that snowfoaming helps towards as near as possible for a touch free wash, hence helping t reduce the risk of damaging paintwork, so im trying to weigh up the pro's and cons to all of this.


I'm a total virgin with waterless products so can only go by what I have seen. I have no doubt many products available DO cause swirls etc, but I am also reliably informed there are some, that when used correctly, do NOT. I think Yvan's images above make you wonder what MIGHT be possible...

ONR, as Holden mentioned, is something I and many here have used a lot, and it works well. Its NOT waterless, but rinseless, so uses about 10-15L in total for all the pre-wash and main wash process. Theres little or no run-off as well. Of course, touchless wash solutions like those I spent the last 2 years trying to perfect, minimise the chances of swirling etc but at what cost. I know I use 100+L of water each time, as well as producing rivers of chemical wash running into the drains shown above. I have decided I no longer want to do that, as the cost/risk is too high for me personally, now I understand the impact it has 

One of my hopes for this forum is that we can try out and learn about different products and techniques and find answers to the questions you ask. I hope to try some of Yvans product soon as well, once I can get some from Canada, as well as more tests with the current offerings, like those Epoch tested a while back.

There is a quote that I think really applies to this situation...

*"The difficulty in change lies not so much in developing new ideas, but in escaping the old ones" * John Maynard Keynes

Sadly, many people attack and have a closed mind to even considering new technologies and ideas in this area, without ever even trying them. There are more DW people than you think who are already doing these things, but havent yet made it public, for the reasons above


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## mattsbmw

Forgive my ignorance on this but if you use ONR do you need to use shampoo as well, or id that the shampoo. and once the car has been washed using it is it safe to dry it afterwards?

And finally how does the cost per was compare on ONR to normal shampoo?


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## hibberd

I wonder if maybe we are maybe focusing on what we are doing, rather than on what the used product is doing. When using any product, other than pure water, you are using some form of chemical. We are talking about things like bio degradation etc but maybe we forgetting that something need to have a characteristic which is why we are using it. One of those characteristics we are requiring is for it to act as a surfactant, this effects the surface tension of water, either to help clean (snow foams, soaps etc) or to keep clean (waxes). So while we can choose friendlier products in terms of chemical malevolence we cannot eliminate its need to be a surfactant. Is it not this effect that damages the rivers and streams and the life it contains? Even the waterless systems seem still to use these or other surfactants.


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## Bigpikle

mattsbmw said:


> Forgive my ignorance on this but if you use ONR do you need to use shampoo as well, or id that the shampoo. and once the car has been washed using it is it safe to dry it afterwards?
> 
> And finally how does the cost per was compare on ONR to normal shampoo?


use it as the shampoo, in place of whatever you use now.

Just doesnt need a pre-soak unless cars are caked in stuff, and it doesnt smear like a shampoo if left, so no rinse needed.

Put simply:

1. wipe small area of car eg half a wing until clean
2. use 1st drying towel to nearly dry the area
3. spray a bit of QD/spray wax whatever you like to use, and wipe with 2nd cloth
4. do the next area

loads of videos on YouTube and great reference thread here and I'm going to do a few pics and review etc once the weather improves a bit  PM me any questions....


----------



## Bigpikle

hibberd said:


> I wonder if maybe we are maybe focusing on what we are doing, rather than on what the used product is doing. When using any product, other than pure water, you are using some form of chemical. We are talking about things like bio degradation etc but maybe we forgetting that something need to have a characteristic which is why we are using it. One of those characteristics we are requiring is for it to act as a surfactant, this effects the surface tension of water, either to help clean (snow foams, soaps etc) or to keep clean (waxes). So while we can choose friendlier products in terms of chemical malevolence we cannot eliminate its need to be a surfactant. Is it not this effect that damages the rivers and streams and the life it contains? Even the waterless systems seem still to use these or other surfactants.


Not quite sure of what you mean, but agree we need the 'effect' of these products to clean the paint, and waterless, rinseless etc all have that effect.

The key thing for me is that waterless or rinseless products eliminate the chance of those chemicals ending up in the drains through the vaste run-off you see in all the pics where cars get foamed :thumb:


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## reparebrise

hibberd said:


> I wonder if maybe we are maybe focusing on what we are doing, rather than on what the used product is doing. When using any product, other than pure water, you are using some form of chemical. We are talking about things like bio degradation etc but maybe we forgetting that something need to have a characteristic which is why we are using it. One of those characteristics we are requiring is for it to act as a surfactant, this effects the surface tension of water, either to help clean (snow foams, soaps etc) or to keep clean (waxes). So while we can choose friendlier products in terms of chemical malevolence we cannot eliminate its need to be a surfactant. Is it not this effect that damages the rivers and streams and the life it contains? Even the waterless systems seem still to use these or other surfactants.


Yes any good waterless product contains surfactants(unfortunatly many do not, as they are just relabled quick spray waxes). The difference is that to clean a complete auto you use 100ml of product total(and that 100ml is 90% distilled water). The waste that results is trapped in your MF towels, and does not go down the river to the sea. When you wash your MF towels your washing machine is connected to the sewer system, and not the storm drain system. When connected to the sewer system the waste gets treated in a plant, and what gets discharged back into the water system is clean water.


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## swiftshine

Bigpikle said:


> Just doesnt need a pre-soak *unless cars are caked in stuff*, and it doesnt smear like a shampoo if left, so no rinse needed.
> 
> ...


I have been looking into the ONR (or equivelent) option to add to my armoury as I think it can definitely have a place. Mainly for my Sprite though, which is limited mileage and only comes out on nice days.

My daily driver however, is not so fortunate. It gets rather filthy, especially at this time of year, and I cannot believe that it is possible to clean it properly without a pre-wash (whether foam or plain water). If anyone would like to prove otherwise on a properly dirty, muddy car, then I would be glad to see it and happily eat my words if proved wrong.

Another point to no hose washes is how do you clean the undercarriage? I can't see someone out with a thousand micro-fibres and onr trying to clean the underside of their car.

Yvans pics were interesting to see, and I would like to see a full write up. It did look however, that the car had only traffic film rather than proper dirt/grit.

I realise that we should all be looking at how environmentally friendly we are, and I am not posting to attack the idea (or the main proponents), so I hope no-one views my posts as such. :thumb:


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## Bigpikle

all great questions I hope we can explore in this forum and get some answers :thumb:

no idea on undercarriage stuff, except for wheel arches, as ONR works for that from what I have seen. I dont wash below sill level on my daily cars, and like you the MGB doesnt get THAT dirty. I used ONR for all the MG washes last year, either in a wash solution or there stronger QD formulation for removing garage dust etc. As I put 20+ hours into polishing it last winter, I was a little nervous, but can promise there is no marring anywhere from the washing - although it only got washed 4-5 times, and as you say didnt ever get filthy 

I am in the process of getting hold of some of Yvan's stuff to try, so will at some point ask for testers to give it a try, if you'd be up for it


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## mattsbmw

I think as has been said above, that the reduced water option is ideal for summer cleaning of cars and i fully intend to try it out. but i will only use it with dust and some light dirt on. 

In winter i think it would be more prudent to use some sort of pre rinse maybe just plain water in the jetwash then use ONR to wash instead of Shampoo.

Anyone got a link to where ONR can be purcahsed?


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## caledonia

Bigpikle said:


> I am in the process of getting hold of some of Yvan's stuff to try, so will at some point ask for testers to give it a try, if you'd be up for it


If you don't mind me being forward, Mr Pikle stick me down for a sample to test. I do on average 750 to 1000mile a week, so the car can get rather dirty. I think it will certainly test the products cleaning powers.

Good point Matt I have been looking also and although I might be wrong there seems to be a V1 and V2. Can some one explain the difference also.
Gordon.


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## Bigpikle

ONR is sold at Motorgeek.co.uk

I have both v1 & v2 - only difference appears to be colour and smell. Old one was brown and looked like dirty water, while the newer version is blue and smells fresh. Both perform the same.

If people are interested it might be an idea to get some samples going, ala DW samples, as the smallest bottle is 32oz, so if you dont get on with it then there a fair bit to use up


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## swiftshine

Bigpikle said:


> I am in the process of getting hold of some of Yvan's stuff to try, so will at some point ask for testers to give it a try, if you'd be up for it


I'd be happy to give it a try:thumb:

Maybe use the g/f's car to try it on really filthy paintwork rather than my own


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## Bigpikle

swiftshine said:


> I'd be happy to give it a try:thumb:
> 
> Maybe use the g/f's car to try it on really filthy paintwork rather than my own


:lol:

I wont tell


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## reparebrise

Swift shine

On the car in question that is not just road grime. I Live in Quebec Canada, and that picture was taken in the winter, where are roads are covered in both salt and sand. A Close up would have shown that.

For a car with caked on dirt, yes a pre rinse is a smart move, but no need for foam, or other chemicals.

For the undercarriage it gets washed quite well when it rains, but a visit to a do it yourself car wash(I am unfamiliar with your term for this type of facility) and a few coins gets the underside clean, and they should be connected to some sort of dirt removal device for teh waste water.

Following this link will show you my wifes car even dirtier that mine. http://www.chipdoctors.com/ecolo.html


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## Satty

id love too see some vids of this waterless wash.. seems interesting..

Sat


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## reparebrise

As soon as the temp rises above -5c I will do a video to share with all.


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## PJS

Hmm....I'm not wholly convinced there's an actual problem in need of addressing, domestically.
From a commercial business aspect, with typically caustic TFRs (but getting less) then I can appreciate there may be more concern, but the average shampoo and non-caustic snow foam, I just don't see it being an issue, at the volumes we're talking about.

Damon, whilst I applaud you for this, I still think you're reacting in haste, without the necessary data to prove your newly found conviction.
And all the more surprising it only dawns on you so shortly after investing heavily in the Kranzle machine.

Unfortunately, I believe/know there are bigger environmental concerns that need addressing, which aren't for whatever reason, and like the whole propaganda surrounding man made climate change (chaos now, since the weather isn't behaving as they said it would!), some people get easily suckered into believing what they do is wrong, and must be curtailed at all costs.

I'm all for maintaining the environment, but refuse to get emotionally blackmailed by the "think of the children" mentality, and firmly believe you fix the big problems first, then work your way down to the lesser ones.
As it is, I don't see domestic car cleaning with the typical products used, as all that high on the agenda.

Yvan, welcome to the forum first of all, but I have to take a certain amount of issue with the earlier comment about waterless/rinseless products are PROVEN to be safer for the environment.
Not wishing to be confrontational, but I would need to see substantial evidence that backs up your claim.
If it's merely a position of personal belief, then I'll leave it at that.

I'm not saying there is NO merit whatsoever to these types of products, but then as I mentioned about the MMCC, there's bandwagon after bandwagon of green agendas being driven, and some companies (personal belief or pure market exploitation) are trading on the whole green/carbon footprint/environmentally friendly scaremongering.

As I said, a lot of this smacks of skirting round the periphery/tinkering with the minutiae, when what should be focused on, isn't.
Of course, there's one's own conscious to satiate, which if this does, then fair enough, but I think we're a fair bit away from having proven any causal effect on the domestic front.

However, I will be watching with a certain interest, and seeing what, if any, proof materialises that domestic car cleaning is higher up the list of concerns, than where I believe it is.


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## Bigpikle

Phil

Thanks for reading and chipping in :thumb:

Part of the reason I wrote Pt 1 is because in Pt 2 I'm going to show some research that says even very very small amounts of pollution have a big impact on wildlife, and I'm talking just 1-2ppm. Also, it is already ILLEGAL for any pro to allow any run-off from car washing to enter a storm drain. Thats not just with TFRs but with ANYTHING they are using. Just seems that most dont know or worse, dont care  

I wondered at the time about my Kranzle, but have also found that the flow make'ss perfect for cleaning (without foam/chemical) the worst winter debris off the cars ahead of ONR washing. I still use it when needed, but have decided to ditch foam completely...

Please keep watching...


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## Bilt-Hamber Lab

This is an interesting subject.:thumb:

When used correctly our foam hits the panel at max 5% of delivered stream, of that the surfactants make up 0.7- 0.85%. Foam is highly visible so naturally draws attention to itself. But the surfactants bind and hold debris and we've had some users collect the first fallen effluent by brushing it up! In that way it could be disposed of to a sewer where it's broken down readily. 

Much more difficult to collect though is that water from straight pressure washing where, like it or not, you will be removing road film which will be carried into storm drains. The road film is likely to be a mix of particulates and hydrocarbons, the second likely to be a problem to wildlife. 

Waterless washes surfactants which have a hydrophilic tails, these will allow the slow removal of the applied products by rainfall and subsequent washing. Some waterless washes and waxes may contain high percentages of turpentine, or white spirits - both are classified as marine pollutants and liberate themselves into the environment.


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## tdm

i can see the potential for some chemicals to have an affect on animals ect, but the washing away of road film being a problem i just donet get..

most of the dirt that ends up on our cars has come from the road, where would it go if we hadnt driven through it..most likely down the drain when it next rains...its not like the drains would suddenly be clean enough to drink from if we all stopped washing our cars..

i wonder if people who offer driveway pressure cleaning services have to reclaim there water, or the council when there blasting away chewing gum,,guess not from the ones ive seen.


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## Bigpikle

Bilt-Hamber Lab said:


> This is an interesting subject.:thumb:
> 
> When used correctly our foam hits the panel at max 5% of delivered stream, of that the surfactants make up 0.7- 0.85%. Foam is highly visible so naturally draws attention to itself. But the surfactants bind and hold debris and we've had some users collect the first fallen effluent by brushing it up! In that way it could be disposed of to a sewer where it's broken down readily.
> 
> Much more difficult to collect though is that water from straight pressure washing where, like it or not, you will be removing road film which will be carried into storm drains. The road film is likely to be a mix of particulates and hydrocarbons, the second likely to be a problem to wildlife.
> 
> Waterless washes surfactants which have a hydrophilic tails, these will allow the slow removal of the applied products by rainfall and subsequent washing. *Some waterless washes and waxes may contain high percentages of turpentine, or white spirits - both are classified as marine pollutants and liberate themselves into the environment.*


good point Pete

I have seen several waterless products that are marked as harmful, and need gloves to be worn  My guess is many are full of petrochemicals as well and are not pleasant. Seems to remind me of stories of many many years ago when people washed their cars with petrol... maybe not the best plan these days :lol:

I have noted many times how quickly the foam residue of your foam disappears once the foam hit the ground. Can you say any more about what is actually happening to the chemicals on the solution as this happens? Are they breaking down, or is it simply the bubbles/foam disappearing and it would take longer for the chemicals themselves to break down?

thanks for any input - this is becoming a fascinating discussion, just as I hoped


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## reparebrise

Bilt-Hamber Lab said:


> Waterless washes surfactants which have a hydrophilic tails, these will allow the slow removal of the applied products by rainfall and subsequent washing. Some waterless washes and waxes may contain high percentages of turpentine, or white spirits - both are classified as marine pollutants and liberate themselves into the environment.


You are very correct, some products are not safe to use, but on the other hand many are, reading the MSDS sheet will give you this information, and it's up to you to make the choice.

PJS

Great reflection, your weekly wash is not a big problem in the scheme of things, but lets do a little calculation together.

Lets assume that a typical wet wash uses 1oz of soap to clean the car.

On a weekly basis we can say that 1% of people drag out the bucket and hose pipe to clean there cars.

So in the UK you are slightly over 60 million in population, so that gives us 6 hundred thousand people washing there cars per week(and if this forums participation is any indication that number is low) or over 4,000 gallons of soap poluting the waterways every week. in that light the problem is a larger one, and using that same number calculate the gallons of drinking water that are being wasted , it's astounding.

Here in Quebec all products containing phosphates will be banned as of 2010, be they for home or professional use, the reason is the high concentrations in our waterways of phosphates that are killing wildlife. In Quebec we are only 10% of the population of the UK, we have 3 times(if not more) the land mass of the UK, and have the largest fresh water reserves in the world, so imagine what your waterways are suffering with 1/3 the land mass, and 10 times the population.

As for testing the waterless wash it's very easy to do at home for yourself. First get e new piece of plexiglass and seperate it into 2 parts, note any imperfections. Place this outside on the lawn, and allow it to get dirty.

On 1/2 clean using your waterless product of choice, and keenly observe for amy scratching or marring. On the other 1/2 follow you normal wash routine, and if you use a bucket and a mit, please do so once you have cleaned 1/2 of your car, to make the test fair(waterless wash is fresh for every pannel done). Everyone who has done this test has retired there hosepipe and bucket.

Finaly to address a concern that has yet to be mentioned here, but I will do so. Many claim that waterless washes have filling agents to hide the marring and scrathing they supposedly produce. If fact some of the lower quality ones do, and they should be avoided. Many low quality WW's are in fact just a spray wax that has been further diluted, they are to be avoided. To test for such bad properties, after washing wipe the surface down with a wax remover, no additional scratching should be present.


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## Bilt-Hamber Lab

reparebrise said:


> You are very correct, some products are not safe to use, but on the other hand many are, reading the MSDS sheet will give you this information, and it's up to you to make the choice.
> 
> Here in Quebec all products containing phosphates will be banned as of 2010, be they for home or professional use, the reason is the high concentrations in our waterways of phosphates that are killing wildlife. In Quebec we are only 10% of the population of the UK, we have 3 times(if not more) the land mass of the UK, and have the largest fresh water reserves in the world, so imagine what your waterways are suffering with 1/3 the land mass, and 10 times the population.


It helps, but the trouble is even an apparently harmless waterless wash would contain surfactants that *would* find their way into the environment - if the product is an emulsion it'll contain them. You need to be able to decipher the SDS sheet, before you could decide how safe an apparently safe product is. And bear in mind that even if the product is not disclosed as harmful it may well still represent a problem when looked at from an environmental point of view.

Well-formulated car cleaning detergents should be free of phosphates - they're a problem for sure - however by far the biggest user is agriculture, where wash-off of phosphates from fields causes eutrophication, or the accelerated growth within an eco system. In rivers and lakes, for example, algal bloom results in lack of oxygen and severe reductions in water quality.

I'm very interested to know if the forthcoming restrictions will cover NPK fertilisers.


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## reparebrise

Pete

Once again thatnk you for the well though out questions, I enjoy a good non confrontational debate, where the goal is to learn. I also had a look at your product offerings, Bravo they look great.

Yes any good WW contains surfactants, and yes the surfactants do remain in the MF towel post wash. In use generaly we use 100ml of product to clean a car, and 90% of that is distilled water, so only 10ml of potential polution per car.
All the dirt and product is carried away in the MF towel. In turn this towel is then cleaned in the technicians home or business laundry set. If they are following code the washing machine is connected to the municipal sewer, and not the storm drain system. All waters collected in the sewer are then brought to the sewage treatment plant to be treated and disposed of properly.

As for car care products,, unfortunatly not all companies are as pro-active as yours, and they continue to use phosphates as surfactants.

Yes in Quebec agriculture has been identified as a major source of polution, and they have to conform by the same date as everyone else, no excuses.


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## Neil_S

Very interesting Damon and certainly makes you think.

Glad I don't use harsh wheel cleaning chemicals and also makes me want to understand more about the products I do use regularly.

Its worth pointing out that most surveys when you buy your house come with information about drainage so may be worth referring to if you want to find out more about your own situation.


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## Craigus

It is interesting what happens in these drains, i am kind of involved in it with my job in construction, and is quite shocking where some of the muck ends up, thanks for a great post,


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## AdulteratedJedi

Interesting post, and a very poignant debate.


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## rosscoe

good subject matter. A couple of points for thought.

the grills on the pipes shown at the front end of the thread are not for filtering, they are designed to stop kids getting into the pipes. They are a maintenance liability for the asset owners.

A good step for all non professional car washers can do is to use products that do not contain detergents. Biodegradable is good, but depends on how long it takes for the product to break down (biodegrade).

Ensuring that your waste goes into a system that gets treated is excellent too.

Three types of drainage systems: Separate, combined and partially combined (ignore this one as I have always found it difficult to define)

Separate keeps foul (dirty ie sinks, toilet) and surface (water that falls on the property - roof / paths etc) in separate pipes and in the vast majority of cases takes the foul to some sort of treatment and the surface to a watercourse of some sort.

It is in the water companies interest to keep surface water away from treatment plants as there is a lot of it and treating it costs £££s.

Leaking sewers are all over the place, do not worry about them, main leakage issue that water companies deal with (and the one they are measured in mentioned earlier in the thread) is leakage from supply pipes. Whole different story.

Businesses need a licence to discharge to a public sewer, but there are minimum volumes and I would imagine most valeters / detailers would be below the minimum's.

Putting waste down the sink / toilet is good too.

Making sure washing machines / downstairs toilets are connected to the right system is very valid and the sort of offence water companies chase you for (done a few myself many moons ago)

Organic is bad for water systems, can really really screw the fishes and other meekymokies up long term.

But shiny shiny cars look soooooo good it hurts

we have a choice


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## Planet Man

Very Interesting thread chaps!!

Thanks BP:thumb:


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## s2ook

This is an eye opening and compelling article to consider the consequences of chemical use when detailing. I'll certainly be more mindful about the use of prewash and disposal of products.

As for doing a prewash with snowfoam, is there a way to effectively collect waste product post use? I'm not (as yet) a believer a waterless washing...

:thumb:


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## woodlandtechie

Just a thought, ONR seems to be primarily used for the paintwork...what about wheels, can this remove brake dust residue safely and effectively?

I'm all for waterless, I find it a bit of a pain, washing, rinsing, drying, polishing...all I want is a clean car with minimum fuss...not too much as for is it?


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## caledonia

The answer to you question is yes ONR can be use on wheels.
But I have only just started this process. Does not take long for the rinse water to get dirty though, as you can imagine.

Bigpikle has been doing this for a while and he was the one that shed light on this for me.
He is the guy you want to speak to about ONR.
Gordon


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## Relaited

Yes, No Rinse and Waterless products work well on wheels ... it is the most challenging, no doubt, but they work fine.

But, if you are say mobile, and wish to keep contaminants out of the storm drain, then in my opinion, far better than using a wash mat.

I have seen some test products that should be out shortly that will help make this faster.

-jim


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## caledonia

Jim could you give me more information on these products.
If you do not wish to post openly then send me a PM.
Thanks again 
Gordon.


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## Bigpikle

woodlandtechie said:


> Just a thought, ONR seems to be primarily used for the paintwork...what about wheels, can this remove brake dust residue safely and effectively?
> 
> I'm all for waterless, I find it a bit of a pain, washing, rinsing, drying, polishing...all I want is a clean car with minimum fuss...not too much as for is it?





caledonia said:


> The answer to you question is yes ONR can be use on wheels.
> But I have only just started this process. Does not take long for the rinse water to get dirty though, as you can imagine.
> 
> Bigpikle has been doing this for a while and he was the one that shed light on this for me.
> He is the guy you want to speak to about ONR.
> Gordon


Yep - Gordon is right.

Think of ONR just like any other shampoo. It cleans as well as the best shampoos I have used, and should be used just like a typical shampoo, EXCEPT that you dont need a rinse to remove suds or residues - simply dry it :thumb:

It will clean wheels as well as any shampoo solution. Protected wheels will clean up with no issue but just like using a normal shampoo it will severely struggle on wheels with a big build up of baked on brake dust or contaminants. A stronger cleaner or steam cleaning is going to be your friend in these situations....


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## woodlandtechie

OK, so the bigger picture for me is that I may have to wash my car maybe once or twice depending upon just how dirty it is, but for the main, if I clean it, protect it then follow a regular ONR routine I'm drastically cutting down on potential contamination introduced to the environment...sounds like a worthwhile course of action to me


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## Relaited

Hey Gordon, the ones I have tried have a surfactant, so provided it is not a BMW with baked on stuff, they work well on rims.

The Ecovation I have seen has a thing that goes around the tire so you can get a little sloppy to achieve speed and quality, yet not worry about any contaminants hitting the ground.

The other allows for an eco engine detail to occur. Same concept, will catch the drips underneath.

Both fold up efficiently for storage, etc.

Helps tremendously for speed ... no schleping the big old wash mat in and out, and because we focus on minimizing water use, we do not have all that water to properly discharge at the end of the day!

Cheers,

-jim


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## Bigpikle

woodlandtechie said:


> OK, so the bigger picture for me is that I may have to wash my car maybe once or twice depending upon just how dirty it is, but for the main, if I clean it, protect it then follow a regular ONR routine I'm drastically cutting down on potential contamination introduced to the environment...sounds like a worthwhile course of action to me


another option I have been using successfully recently is a waterless wash product for wheels - spray on and wipe off. Brilliant and fast for wheels that are protected underneath and cleaned regularly so muck doesnt bake on too much.

Today I did my Audi wheels that havent been washed for about 6 weeks, after a trip to the bodyshop and some work trips, and the waterless just didnt do it. I ended up using AS Smart Wheels in small quantities, then rinsed off carefully with a sprayer of ONR. I used an old MF soaked in the ONR rinse bucket and wiped it over. I got almost zero run-off and was able to use a stronger chemical without issue. Hopefully I shouldnt need to do it again for a VERY long time now 

I really like the idea of Jim's wheel mat idea as well :thumb:


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## george525

Bigpikle said:


> 50-100L of water and foam down the drain...
> 
> less wasteful is NO pre-rinse, and NO rinse afterwards, and there are several very safe ways to do it
> 
> Some figures claim a PW uses LESS water than a hose as it does it quicker, but still chucks out 5-10L/min. I can now wash my cars in total with 10L!


Like many other people I don't get to wash my car as often as I'd like and as a result it's usually pretty filthy by the time I get round to it particularly during winter.

I just don't believe that a rinseless wash product can safely clean my car when it's that dirty. The most important lesson I've learned since joining DW is that most swirls etc are inflicted when washing and that it's important to get as much of the dirt as possible off before physically touching the vehicle.

I doubt very much that I'll ever try a rinseless wash product but if I do then it will be ONR as it seems to be regarded as the best of them. The fact that it has to make a transatlantic journey to get to me takes the edge off any green benefits though.

I don't mean to be argumentitive but it seems to me that there will never really be such a thing as a 'green' car enthusiast. In my eyes going green means treating your car as a simple tool and using it as little as possible. Also we would not choose our cars on grounds of performance or aesthetics but rather fuel economy and emissions.

Cheers:thumb:

George


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## Bigpikle

george525 said:


> Like many other people I don't get to wash my car as often as I'd like and as a result it's usually pretty filthy by the time I get round to it particularly during winter.
> 
> *I just don't believe that a rinseless wash product can safely clean my car when it's that dirty. * The most important lesson I've learned since joining DW is that most swirls etc are inflicted when washing and that it's important to get as much of the dirt as possible off before physically touching the vehicle.
> 
> I* doubt very much that I'll ever try a rinseless wash product* but if I do then it will be ONR as it seems to be regarded as the best of them. The fact that it has to make a transatlantic journey to get to me takes the edge off any green benefits though.
> 
> I don't mean to be argumentitive but it seems to me that there will never really be such a thing as a 'green' car enthusiast. In my eyes going green means treating your car as a simple tool and using it as little as possible. Also we would not choose our cars on grounds of performance or aesthetics but rather fuel economy and emissions.
> 
> Cheers:thumb:
> 
> George


if there is one thing I have learned recently, experimenting with ONR & waterless products and other more eco-friendly products etc, its that the biggest issue is that _its all in the mind_ - eg people have assumed constraints that make them believe it wont work... I know as I was the same until I started to push the boundaries.

Today I washed 2 cars with 10L of water, and neither is swirled to hell or in any worse condition than before. I have very high standards.


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## reparebrise

Damon

You are very correct, the barriers that are imposed are ones own. These barriers are most often erected by peer pressure, preconceived notions and fear of change.

Its much like someone having not ever wanting to make love because there is a chance that they would get a sexually transmitted disease, you are giving up on one of life's biggest pleasures because of fear.


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## george525

Bigpikle said:


> if there is one thing I have learned recently, experimenting with ONR & waterless products and other more eco-friendly products etc, its that the biggest issue is that _its all in the mind_ - eg people have assumed constraints that make them believe it wont work... I know as I was the same until I started to push the boundaries.
> 
> Today I washed 2 cars with 10L of water, and neither is swirled to hell or in any worse condition than before. I have very high standards.


It seems to me that to embrace these methods would be to reject what I've learned on DW so far with regard to safely washing a vehicle. It just seems like common sense to me that if most of the dirt is flushed off the surface then the less there is to be rubbed in possibly causing damage.

I think a good way to demonstrate these products would be to start with a freshly detailed car with soft paint such as a Honda and wash it weekly for a period of 3 months. The before and after shots with halogens should tell the real story.

I just want to say again that I'm not trying to start an argument or cause any bad feeling. I've had the benefit of your advice on several occasions and it's always been spot on:thumb:

Cheers

George


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## caledonia

I have a panel on my car that has been machine polisher and verified to be swirl and mar free. This particular panel has not seen water in 13 washes now, and will continue not to see water till the beginning of May. Till it is inspected once more by these same members.
Believe me there are new advances in product technology and techniques that can clean dirty grimy cars mar free.

This is not the panel. But it shows you how dirty my car can get.










It is also not the time to show the panel as the test has not been concluded.

Gordon.


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## george525

reparebrise said:


> Damon
> 
> You are very correct, the barriers that are imposed are ones own. These barriers are most often erected by peer pressure, preconceived notions and fear of change.
> 
> Its much like someone having not ever wanting to make love because there is a chance that they would get a sexually transmitted disease, you are giving up on one of life's biggest pleasures because of fear.


Oh God! :lol::lol::lol::lol:

That's just a tiny bit condescending. Don't you think?

I don't share your opinion so you consider me some sort of social inadequate? If I was half as easily led as you seem to think I am my garage would already be full of the magic potions!

Cheers :detailer:

George


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## reparebrise

George

Sorry if I came off across as condescending, that was not the intention at all.

Fear of change is a normal reaction for everyone, we all do it.

Adapting new methods is far from rejecting past ones, just adding to your experience level. Just because you cook with a microwave does not mean you never use your stove again, it is just that you chose the method best adapted to the situation at hand.


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## Relaited

Just curious ... what wash method would you compare the wash process to?

How are most cars washed, and what is the customer expectation? 

I think that should be the standard.

What think?

-jim

PS Yvan, are you calling me "easy" because I love fornicating this model?

PPS My garage is full of magic potions, soem of which actually work!


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## reparebrise

Relaited;
PS Yvan said:


> Not easy, but definitely experienced. I too have shelves of many potions, and for the most part they range from `oh well at least it has a nice trigger sprayer` to `hey not bad at all` , only a very select few would I actually use.


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## Bigpikle

george525 said:


> It seems to me that to embrace these methods would be to reject what I've learned on DW so far with regard to safely washing a vehicle. It just seems like common sense to me that if most of the dirt is flushed off the surface then the less there is to be rubbed in possibly causing damage.
> 
> I think a good way to demonstrate these products would be to start with a freshly detailed car with soft paint such as a Honda and wash it weekly for a period of 3 months. The before and after shots with halogens should tell the real story.
> 
> I just want to say again that I'm not trying to start an argument or cause any bad feeling. I've had the benefit of your advice on several occasions and it's always been spot on:thumb:
> 
> Cheers
> 
> George


Hi George :wave:

No argument started - love a good discussion on here otherwise it would all be dull 

Obviously everything you are talking about with regard to rinsing, foaming, flushing etc is going to give a safe wash for a vehicle - no doubting that :thumb: I just also believe that in some situations there are also other viable alternatives that will also work, without the need for as much water, chemical and waste produced...something already an issue in many situations. A few months ago I decided I wanted to try and reduce the list of nasty chemicals in my garage and the amount of waste I produced. At the time I had no idea what that actually meant, and several months of gradual baby steps for me has begun to prove to me what is actually possible. Testing like you describe is underway and maybe it will show some options for some people?

As with ANY industry, there is a risk that simply regurgitating the ideas of old leads to stifling of innovation. Who would have thought a few years ago that diesel cars would rise to the level of performance and dominance they have now? 10 years ago diesels were smokey oil burners and now they win Le Mans, appear in high end sports cars and are cleaner and lower emissions than many petrol engines. Same with digital camera technology - I've been into photography for 20 years and up until recently there were many that dismissed digital cameras as 'never being able to match film' yet that has now been firmly debunked....why not detailing as well?

Right now we really have the luxury of choice as there is almost no regulation for the typical man in the street washing his car. Who knows if that might change in the future - personally I think the days are numbered - but why wait until some lawmaker outlaws washing your car with a hose and buckets? Its a very real reality in parts of the world, and we all know how our government likes to nanny us all and follow others when it comes to legislation


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## george525

Bigpikle said:


> Hi George :wave:
> 
> No argument started - love a good discussion on here otherwise it would all be dull
> 
> Obviously everything you are talking about with regard to rinsing, foaming, flushing etc is going to give a safe wash for a vehicle - no doubting that :thumb: I just also believe that in some situations there are also other viable alternatives that will also work, without the need for as much water, chemical and waste produced...something already an issue in many situations. A few months ago I decided I wanted to try and reduce the list of nasty chemicals in my garage and the amount of waste I produced. At the time I had no idea what that actually meant, and several months of gradual baby steps for me has begun to prove to me what is actually possible. Testing like you describe is underway and maybe it will show some options for some people?
> 
> As with ANY industry, there is a risk that simply regurgitating the ideas of old leads to stifling of innovation. Who would have thought a few years ago that diesel cars would rise to the level of performance and dominance they have now? 10 years ago diesels were smokey oil burners and now they win Le Mans, appear in high end sports cars and are cleaner and lower emissions than many petrol engines. Same with digital camera technology - I've been into photography for 20 years and up until recently there were many that dismissed digital cameras as 'never being able to match film' yet that has now been firmly debunked....why not detailing as well?
> 
> Right now we really have the luxury of choice as there is almost no regulation for the typical man in the street washing his car. Who knows if that might change in the future - personally I think the days are numbered - but why wait until some lawmaker outlaws washing your car with a hose and buckets? Its a very real reality in parts of the world, and we all know how our government likes to nanny us all and follow others when it comes to legislation


Hi Bigpikle:thumb:

I share your view that this will be forced on us in the not too distant future. I won't be able to flout it either because where I live someone would call the cops before I could get the first of my two buckets filled:lol:

Cheers

George


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