# Is snow foam just a gimmick?



## mick aldo

Just gone with the flow and bought a HD Snow Foam lance and some Megs Hyper Wash.

Must admit looks great when the vehicle is covered in foam but in my opinion it does nothing that a good blast with the jet wash can do. 

Done several cars and my van with it - it still leaves quite a bit of muck on the vehicle! So , is it that this process just looks good for paying customers, or is to make you look a dick with your neighbours?


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## -Kev-

from what i've seen in the gallery section, its well worth doing (even more so on very dirty cars), you can see the dirt running off the car with the foam. how long did you leave it for before rinsing off?


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## Clark @ PB

Foaming is very effective.


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## Deano

foaming is essential if you dont want to be scrubbing large dirt particles into your paint.


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## wrx man

I thought this at first but when you look at the dirt it pulls off and loosens it is worth it.

It really does loosen the grime !


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## PWOOD

mick aldo said:


> Just gone with the flow and bought a HD Snow Foam lance and some Megs Hyper Wash.
> 
> Must admit looks great when the vehicle is covered in foam but in my opinion it does nothing that a good blast with the jet wash can do.
> 
> Done several cars and my van with it - it still leaves quite a bit of muck on the vehicle! So , is it that this process just looks good for paying customers, or is to make you look a dick with your neighbours?


Thats the problem is it not.


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## mick aldo

The foam is left on between 8 and 10 mins. As for dirty cars my van had done about 1000 miles in the week so was pretty mucky. The process for cleaning it was a blast with the pressure washer to get rid of the salt & grit then a good coat of foam left to dwell then pressure-washed off. What I'm saying is that no more muck came off the van after the foaming.


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## -Kev-

PWOOD said:


> Thats the problem is it not.


nope- hyper wash foams like shaving foam


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## Bence

...and Mick, BTW you rinse with a "jet wash"...


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## Deano

mick aldo said:


> The foam is left on between 8 and 10 mins. As for dirty cars my van had done about 1000 miles in the week so was pretty mucky. The process for cleaning it was a blast with the pressure washer to get rid of the salt & grit then a good coat of foam left to dwell then pressure-washed off. What I'm saying is that no more muck came off the van after the foaming.


personally i dont blast with the washer because if you catch big lumps of grit at high pressure it can cause probs. thats the beauty of foam. slowly lifts and drags the dirt off, not forcing it into the paint like a high pressure blast.


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## mick aldo

Bence said:


> ...and Mick, BTW you rinse with a "jet wash"...


no you rinse with a hose!


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## Mark M

Foam the car, let it dwell, then blast off.

Never an issue for me yet.

Foaming is a key step in softening the grit/dirt on the paint, then high pressure rinse...then you only have a dirty film left to wash off.


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## Arousa

I have never foamed with Hyper Wash so can not comment on its effectiveness, however I do use several purpose foam shampoos like the Bilt Hamber Auto Foam, ValetPro PH Neutral and another snow foam and they do work at eliminating much of the dirt, if not all off of the car.


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## Gleammachine

I find it to be effective in softening the soiling also it lubricates the surface for washing.


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## WEIR_SJ

i think wot you are doing wrong, and the reason your not seeing the results alot of people are is the fact that you are wetting the car first before the foam ie. jet washing first....this is more likely to just make the foam slide over the dirt instead of allowing it to soak in and take the dirt down with it...

....wot you should try doing is foaming first and leaving it to dwell for about 5 to 10 mins (depends on the foam type and the weather, temp...)

so my advise is :-

*foam* _(dwell 5-10 mins (this is the perfect time to do your wheels as the foam stops the overspray from wheel cleaners getting on to you cars paint work))_
*rinse*
*foam* _(leaving it on this time but no dwell just move on to washing, lubs the car up nicely)_
*2 bucket wash*
*rinse* _(this can be hose or jetwash)_
*rinse again* _(this time with just an open hose to sheet the water off the car)_
*dry* _(waffle weave or some like to use just blue pearl mircofibres)_

then your ready to move on to polish, wax, glaze, LSP, AIO wotever takes your fancy...


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## Yoghurtman

I'm also a recent convert to snow foam and have been very pleased with the results so far. For a quick wash, it certainly lifts the grime and dirt off my car without any need to use a wash mitt, which is just what I wanted in the current weather !

Have you tried different dilution strengths to see if this helps?


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## MaDMaXX

I was expecting much more from snow foaming when i got my HD lance, but having done back to back tests (so to speak) i've found that i end up doing a lot more scrubbing if i don't snow foam it first.

I basically have to wash the same amount off my car after foaming, but it comes off as if it only dirtied the car today, not the last two weeks.


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## Avanti

mick aldo said:


> The foam is left on between 8 and 10 mins. As for dirty cars my van had done about 1000 miles in the week so was pretty mucky. The process for cleaning it was a blast with the pressure washer to get rid of the salt & grit then a good coat of foam left to dwell then pressure-washed off. What I'm saying is that no more muck came off the van after the foaming.


I want to see which foam stays that way for that duration of time


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## PWOOD

fiestadetailer said:


> nope- hyper wash foams like shaving foam


I thought the dedicated snow foams worked on the grime differently than a shampoo regardless of the foam effect. If not then why is there stuff like BH autofoam and snowfoam etc. I'm not trying to be awkward or anything just concerned I have got the wrong end of the stick regards all this ( I am still debating the expense of one at the moment).


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## Avanti

PWOOD said:


> I thought the dedicated snow foams worked on the grime differently than a shampoo regardless of the foam effect. If not then why is there stuff like BH autofoam and snowfoam etc. I'm not trying to be awkward or anything just concerned I have got the wrong end of the stick regards all this ( I am still debating the expense of one at the moment).


You havent got the wrong end of the stick, (perhaps misguided by many of the posts on the forum) , over the last 3 or 4 yrs I have been faffing around with managing the touchless wash (whilst I will openly admit I use a blade to assist drying) I fear the sponge mitt wash, as rubbing and dirt against paintwork is not for me.
Anyways how detergents work is to seperate the soiling from a surface into suspension so that it can be easily rinsed away, trouble with a vehicle is that it has vertical surfaces and the soap solution can be defeated by gravity before it gets time to work on the soiling, this is where foam has it's benefits, the viscosity is above the usual water mix and can hold onto the sides a little longer, long dwell times can be an advantage but thick shaving mouse type foam is not really and advantage over watery foam for cleaning as the only solution having affect on the dirt is that what is in contact with the dirt, the solution will have a peak saturation and after that it is not working. then the other thing is to rinse thouroughly , 450l/hr or greater is the minimum I would suggest . certain most traffic soils will clean with alkaline solutions, some acidic, some products can be 'both at the same time (if they dont sue me BH offers such a product as does swarfega vehicle wash to name 2) these theoretically will be the better cleaners but again it depends on the type and quantity of soiling on the car , only by trial and error will you find the correct set up for most of your cleans.


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## David

if done correctly, it provides a great protection to wash techniques rather than just PW'ing clumps of mud off paintwork

use it properly and it will work for you


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## Bence

mick aldo said:


> no you rinse with a hose!


...which is pointless because a soft, gentle stream of water can not provide enough mechanical agitation. A lot of us developed ways to achieve a (sort of) touchless wash. A good active foam can help but some sort of mechanical agitation is *always* needed to make the car as clean as possible. BTW, you can very the distance and the angle of the lance of the power washer to your exact needs. A lot depends on the exact location too. For example, here in Hungary, you are simply not able to do a touchless wash - no matter what you're using. Here the road film is stickier, the streets are dustier, the rain is dirtier, and together they are laughing at the power washer. Here is a CR-V I did in the summer AFTER a nice foaming and power washing: 









Most household power washers don't have the invasive force to cause damage to the paintwork (if the end user is aware of its proper usage). Yes, some forestries peel the bark of the trees off with a high pressure power washer. That would cut open tyres, peel back paint, etc.

Avanti, I think using a blade after a touchless process is really dangerous, as it can pick up particles which cause the typical looong drying arc scratches. I'd rather use a thick, quality sheepskin mitt or a very soft sponge (in this order) and skip the blade on paint (OK on glass though).


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## Jochen

It's 100% normal this car is still that dirty after a foam. It's jsut not possible to remove the film from the paint without touching it. Otherwise your car would be clean after a a rain...

It's ment to soften te film and remove the static dirt such as mud and sand...

I recently bought a foam lance (CYC) and tried some settings and products.
I now bought a TFR and was told by the guy who sold it to me (detailer and Meg's retailer) I should have almost a 1:10 delution of product on the car. So that means I have to put the TFR undiluted in the lance. I tried it yesterday on a very (very) dirty car and it was amazing how much dirt came off just during blasting is with the PW. Still, the roadfilm was extremely hard to remove but I think this car had never been washed. It was a 2006 Clio with 75.000km on the clock...

Dirty car...



























Foooom (2 parts TFR and 1 part water in the bottle):









Foam dragging down the dirt. Some peomle think this is what's it all about, the foam that drags the dirt of the car. It's the powerwash afterwords that does the trick and has to be done with a lot of attention










Look at the dirt being washed away :doublesho
You don't want tat inyour bucket!


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## Avanti

Bence said:


> ...which is pointless because a soft, gentle stream of water can not provide enough mechanical agitation. A lot of us developed ways to achieve a (sort of) touchless wash. A good active foam can help but some sort of mechanical agitation is *always* needed to make the car as clean as possible. BTW, you can very the distance and the angle of the lance of the power washer to your exact needs. A lot depends on the exact location too. For example, here in Hungary, you are simply not able to do a touchless wash - no matter what you're using. Here the road film is stickier, the streets are dustier, the rain is dirtier, and together they are laughing at the power washer. Here is a CR-V I did in the summer AFTER a nice foaming and power washing:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Most household power washers don't have the invasive force to cause damage to the paintwork (if the end user is aware of its proper usage). Yes, some forestries peel the bark of the trees off with a high pressure power washer. That would cut open tyres, peel back paint, etc.
> 
> Avanti, I think using a blade after a touchless process is really dangerous, as it can pick up particles which cause the typical looong drying arc scratches. I'd rather use a thick, quality sheepskin mitt or a very soft sponge (in this order) and skip the blade on paint (OK on glass though).


In the pic it looks to me that a different type of cleaner is required, that looks like road grease which requires degreasing solutions to remove that soiling, it also looks like the solution was left to dry in hot sunlight conditions.
A blade can do as you say but in practice it doesnt for the careful (this argument was done 2 weeks ago, fark knows why anyone would want to apply extreme pressure on a blade to cause the damage many describe).


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## MidlandsCarCare

I think that using something like ValetPRO Orange Pre Cleaner is a lot quicker and just as effective.

I've been using both together, but tried just the Pre Cleaner on its own and it seemed just as effective to me...


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## mick aldo

RussZS said:


> I think that using something like ValetPRO Orange Pre Cleaner is a lot quicker and just as effective.
> 
> I've been using both together, but tried just the Pre Cleaner on its own and it seemed just as effective to me...


do you put the pre cleaner through the lance?


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## MidlandsCarCare

mick aldo said:


> do you put the pre cleaner through the lance?


No, just a garden sprayer type thing, and it's wax safe too.

I think Alan has some samples left - his small sample has lasted me ages!!


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## Bence

It's just the normal soiling here. The car was not washed in 2-3 months. I used Auwaschaum S which is strong foaming wash for automatic tunnel washes. It is rich in actives and it is formulated for greasy, oily soiling types. It was not let dry (I don't like to double my workload), but whe I saw that the dirt was still there after PWing, I let the car dry - which doesn't affect the drying process, doesn't mean more spots, as a pooling surface dries very evenly. 

I don't know why do you think I mentioned heavy pressure with the blade... No, just a light, levitating sweep, and it can grab a quartz particle. And that grit happily scours the paint - and BTW if I wouldn't be careful, why in the hell would I be interested in touchless processes, flood/blow/blot drying and wash my car with the utmost care?


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## Shiny

I currently spray foam, rinse, spray foam/shampoo mix, wash, then rinse again.

This weather i need to start using a citrus pre-cleaner to degrease and break down the grime etc. One thing i don't get though is then using the pressure washer to clean off the of the pre-cleaner before the foam stage, defeating the whole purpose of using foam to clean the car of grit before using the p/w on it!

So when people pre-clean with a degreaser, do they just spray the foam straight on top to avoid these rinsing issues? I'm thinking that will be best course of action.


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## Avanti

Bence said:


> It's just the normal soiling here. The car was not washed in 2-3 months. I used Auwaschaum S which is strong foaming wash for automatic tunnel washes. It is rich in actives and it is formulated for greasy, oily soiling types. It was not let dry (I don't like to double my workload), but whe I saw that the dirt was still there after PWing, I let the car dry - which doesn't affect the drying process, doesn't mean more spots, as a pooling surface dries very evenly.
> 
> I don't know why do you think I mentioned heavy pressure with the blade... No, just a light, levitating sweep, and it can grab a quartz particle. And that grit happily scours the paint - and BTW if I wouldn't be careful, why in the hell would I be interested in touchless processes, flood/blow/blot drying and wash my car with the utmost care?


If the product was developed for tunnel washes it is designed for regular use , if the car is not washed for months it will certainley need a degreaser from what i can see in the picture.
As to the 2nd point, a scratch will only occur due to pressure motion onto an unlubricated surface may cause the scratch, put it like this I have been drying my car that way for a long time and I aint about to stop, I wont sell the idea to those that dont choose the method it's each to their own on that score Im afraid.



Show me the grit and show me the scratches


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## dominic84

I personally think using Hyperwash or similair shampoo products on relatively dirty vehicles is pointless because they aren't going to have much, if any effect.

If you want to remove medium to heavy grime and dirt then you need to foam using a dedicated traffic film remover/degreaser i.e. Super Snow Foam, AG PowerMax, AS G101 etc.

The trade off is obviously the more effective the product is at removing dirt then the more likely it is to remove the wax on your car but you can find a happy medium, however on dirty vehicles it won't be with a shampoo product.


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## Avanti

Shiny said:


> I currently spray foam, rinse, spray foam/shampoo mix, wash, then rinse again.
> 
> This weather i need to start using a citrus pre-cleaner to degrease and break down the grime etc. One thing i don't get though is then using the pressure washer to clean off the of the pre-cleaner before the foam stage, defeating the whole purpose of using foam to clean the car of grit before using the p/w on it!
> 
> So when people pre-clean with a degreaser, do they just spray the foam straight on top to avoid these rinsing issues? I'm thinking that will be best course of action.


You shouldnt have to be degreasing that often if you are regularly washing your car. What flow rate is your power washer? 
Give the lance some motion as you are rinsing off

here is some dwell (notice the foam is not like a shaving mouse, but you can see it capturing the exhaust residue from the tailgate.



and with a rinsedown, notice the agitation created by the lance.



now the machine in use is 510l/h and the 450l/h previuosly owned machine was similar, however the 360l/h was not so and required a much longer time to rinse off .


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## Bence

Jochen said:


> ...It's 100% normal this car is still that dirty after a foam. It's jsut not possible to remove the film from the paint without touching it. Otherwise your car would be clean after a a rain...


Jochen, you lucky Western Europeans! Your rain is clean man! In the neighbourhood Austria the cars are a lot cleaner due to the clean rainwater. When it rains here, our cars look like this:


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## MaDMaXX

That's not good dwelling, well, is it about 10-15 mins later? or just with a shampoo?


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## Avanti

Bence said:


> Jochen, you lucky Western Europeans! Your rain is clean man! In the neighbourhood Austria the cars are a lot cleaner due to the clean rainwater. When it rains here, our cars look like this:


But after the rain and soiling you have posted in the pics, how long will you wait until you give the car a clean? as that soiling should come off with minimal of fuss with just water or certainley a light wash solution, I couldn't agree that 2-3months between a car wash is a careful washing regime.


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## Bence

Avanti said:


> 1.)If the product was developed for tunnel washes it is designed for regular use , if the car is not washed for months it will certainley need a degreaser from what i can see in the picture.
> 
> 2.) As to the 2nd point, a scratch will only occur due to pressure motion onto an unlubricated surface may cause the scratch...
> 
> 3.) ...put it like this I have been drying my car that way for a long time and I aint about to stop, I wont sell the idea to those that dont choose the method it's each to their own on that score Im afraid...


1.) NO. The soap has degreasing actives in it - that' why I was using it.

2.) ABSOLUTELY NOT!

3.) I'm really not interested in personal generalizations. If you are washing your car and it is still scratch free, congrats, you are a.) lucky, b.) thorough enough to trust your method. But as you don't have eyes which are active in the microscopic level, you simply can not state that that this method WILL guarantee a mar free result.


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## Bence

Hey man, are you focusing the words I'm writing? Who said it was MY car??? It was a friend's car. 

My car is easier to clean, because it's protected well enough. Unfortunately, these water spot won't go away with just water. If they dry, they need a complete wash cycle. It's a bit frustrating to live here, believe me.


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## Avanti

Bence said:


> 1.) NO. The soap has degreasing actives in it - that' why I was using it.
> 
> 2.) ABSOLUTELY NOT!
> 
> 3.) I'm really not interested in personal generalizations. If you are washing your car and it is still scratch free, congrats, you are a.) lucky, b.) thorough enough to trust your method. But as you don't have eyes which are active in the microscopic level, you simply can not state that that this method WILL guarantee a mar free result.


1) Does the ingredients include Limonene, IPA or other solvents? if not it wont be doing much degreasing as you found out.

2) ???? So perhaps you would like to explain how a scratch is made?

3) I don't have to prove anything, I know what i see, your argument about microscopic vison would hold true for drying with any method, when a surface is scratched it loses it's shine, we dont even have to go to microscopic level.
surface covered with water , particals on the surface, introduce the blade the blade is pushing the water which in turn is moving the particals (just like how we are power washing the bodywork already) .


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## Stevel

*Is snow foam just a gimmick? *

Well the man from Meguires said it is so it must be true.


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## -Kev-

Stevel said:


> *Is snow foam just a gimmick? *
> 
> Well the man from Meguires said it is so it must be true.


:lol:


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## parish

Avanti - what have you got on the glass? Just looking at the water falling off the driver's door window in that third video.


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## Avanti

Bence said:


> Hey man, are you focusing the words I'm writing? Who said it was MY car??? It was a friend's car.
> 
> My car is easier to clean, because it's protected well enough. Unfortunately, these water spot won't go away with just water. If they dry, they need a complete wash cycle. It's a bit frustrating to live here, believe me.


I can only go by what you write, Im sure if you were buying me a beer , we would understand what each other is trying to say, but to fuel your point, why are you letting your friends cars get that filthy? Oh and to add, an acidic shampoo solution is what is required for the rain spots :thumb: (not acidic like wonder wheels) acidic like TW Clear Vue, Z*mol autowash, or a zwittertonic detergent should see you good :thumb:


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## Avanti

parish said:


> Avanti - what have you got on the glass? Just looking at the water falling off the driver's door window in that third video.


Heh heh , put it like this it is not rain x or similar, nope it's just clean glass :thumb: depending on what shampoo you use, follow up with a glass cleaner spray, I have had the car nearly 4yrs and I can tell you the glass has only been polished (twice with TW clear vue and once with AG glass polish) :thumb:


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## Bence

Avanti, people must have solved their degreasing needs before Limonene... It's just a solvent. I dunno, I just trust the manufacturer - if they are saying that it's a strong degreasing soap, I accept it. And I wouldn't put IPA on my paintwork except between polishing and jeweling steps. I avoid even screenwashes with IPA in them.

If you think that when you put your blade on the paint surface it will somehow manage to push the particles aside, and it will rest on a perfectly clean surface... well...
The lip is too thick and the tiny particles can happily hide under it and do their work. And no, the water won't push the particles if they are trapped under lip of the blade.

Yes, you don't have to prove anything. You already did - and that's truly sufficient for me and for others.

Hey, the water spots don't need acidic shampoos. There are no necessarily mineral deposits on the surface. No below-surface-damage, nothing. Thy water collects the dunnowhatexactly stuff from the air (diesel fumes, dust, etc) and when it dries on the surface it will leave a stain, which is basically the dust PLUS the sticky, grimy stuff it collected. It won't necessarily form a nice little calcium ring, but if it does, ONR or other cleaners will remove them in a second. But a blast from the PW alone won't. It will be cleaner, but not entirely clean and you can see the spot itself and its ring too.


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## Avanti

Bence said:


> Avanti, people must have solved their degreasing needs before Limonene... It's just a solvent. I dunno, I just trust the manufacturer - if they are saying that it's a strong degreasing soap, I accept it. And I wouldn't put IPA on my paintwork except between polishing and jeweling steps. I avoid even screenwashes with IPA in them.
> 
> If you think that when you put your blade on the paint surface it will somehow manage to push the particles aside, and it will rest on a perfectly clean surface... well...
> The lip is too thick and the tiny particles can happily hide under it and do their work. And no, the water won't push the particles if they are trapped under lip of the blade.
> 
> Yes, you don't have to prove anything. You already did - and that's truly sufficient for me and for others.
> 
> Hey, the water spots don't need acidic shampoos. There are no necessarily mineral deposits on the surface. No below-surface-damage, nothing. Thy water collects the dunnowhatexactly stuff from the air (diesel fumes, dust, etc) and when it dries on the surface it will leave a stain, which is basically the dust PLUS the sticky, grimy stuff it collected. It won't necessarily form a nice little calcium ring, but if it does, ONR or other cleaners will remove them in a second. But a blast from the PW alone won't. It will be cleaner, but not entirely clean and you can see the spot itself and its ring too.


More fool you if you just trust what the manufacturer says, after all they are not trying to sell you anything are they?  After all how many adverts do you see for products clain=ming to be the be all and end all of one's problem solving? 
grease requires a solvent for it's removal END OF!

as for your quote :If you think that when you put your blade on the paint surface it will somehow manage to push the particles aside, and it will rest on a perfectly clean surface... well...:

what makes you think that likewise with a microfibre towel it would be any different? I already showed you the video, you havent pointed out the dirt, grit or scratches to me , but then beyond all that I cant see why you feel offended that I use a blade and you dont, everyone is different, and remember hitler had his own ideas on one race one method, the same reason you dont use a blade is the same reason I dont favour the bucket sponge/mitt wash but hey Im not spouting on why people shouldnt do it, if they are happy with their chosenmethod then that is all that matters surely?


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## Bigpikle

there is a HUGE difference between a product that foams and one that cleans 

for good cleaning with foam you need 3 things:

1. LSP that releases dirt easily

2. a foam that cleans on contact - BH foam is the best by a wide margin in my experience

3. a effective pressure washer (effective = flow NOT pressure)

I have had good success at touchless washes for a year now with the method above, but recently got my Kranzle PW. That has a flow rate of 10L/min (almost TWICE most domestic Karchers) and the way that thing rinses off dirt is incredible. I took off 90% of 800 miles of caked on salt and muck today with just a rinse, then a foam which took off about another 5%, leaving me with a car that looked spotless, although not quite clean enough for a touch dry 

If you want the BEST clean you have to PW off the foam as well. Foam loosens and lifts the dirt, but trust what Bence says, as it needs some form of mechanical action to remove it completely.


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## Avanti

Bigpikle said:


> there is a HUGE difference between a product that foams and one that cleans
> 
> for good cleaning with foam you need 3 things:
> 
> 1. LSP that releases dirt easily
> 
> 2. a foam that cleans on contact - BH foam is the best by a wide margin in my experience
> 
> 3. a effective pressure washer (effective = flow NOT pressure)
> 
> I have had good success at touchless washes for a year now with the method above, but recently got my Kranzle PW. That has a flow rate of 10L/min (almost TWICE most domestic Karchers) and the way that thing rinses off dirt is incredible. I took off 90% of 800 miles of caked on salt and muck today with just a rinse, then a foam which took off about another 5%, leaving me with a car that looked spotless, although not quite clean enough for a touch dry
> 
> If you want the BEST clean you have to PW off the foam as well. Foam loosens and lifts the dirt, but trust what Bence says, as it needs some form of mechanical action to remove it completely.


I agree with a lot of what you have posted and this and many forums is about sharing ideas and techniques ? (I hope so) 
Like you say a smoother surface will give soiling a harder time to bond to.
a viscous solution of shampoo is preferable on the vertical surfaces
and a good flow rate from a power washer will assist immensely 
so now you have done that and followed up with a mitt wash, rinsed and dried and the car is what 100% clean? 
So let me ask this question ....why do you wash your drying towels?


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## Bigpikle

^^ good question... 

I actually only wash my drying towels about once per 5-6 washes....as they hang in the garage to dry, and only because I usually end up catching small areas I miss with the sponge - under edges of sills usually although sometimes spots like under the edge of the bumper etc  I bet I'm not the only one :lol:


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## Avanti

Bigpikle said:


> ^^ good question...
> 
> I actually only wash my drying towels about once per 5-6 washes....as they hang in the garage to dry, and only because I usually end up catching small areas I miss with the sponge - under edges of sills usually although sometimes spots like under the edge of the bumper etc  I bet I'm not the only one :lol:


It wasnt a question to catch you out :thumb: I am sure that with the right technique and product and correct frequency of power wash, the touchless wash is easily possible , yes I know what you mean about under the sills, I'm a so n so for not getting under there thoroughly , and it is from there the exhaust, inner wheels and foot pedals where my drying cloth gets the dirt not from the bodywork. If you notice in the vid,I dont just sweep the spray on the lower section, the tailgate is the worst affected area on my car (due to the exhuast pipe and aerodynamics of the car) so if Im drying that and the cloth is dirty I know i have not removed the soiling from the power washer and soap solution alone, this is not the case though :thumb:


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## Bigpikle

I didnt watch the vid to be honest....

I actually have the Kingdom Tools blower and usually use that without a drying towel, when I do a FULL wash. I try and touch the paint as little as possible, usually only with a towel if I am using a QD.

TBH - I used to use a blade on my MG, before finding DW. I binned it instantly I got my Brinkman, as the car was covered in long straight scratches that were clearly from the blade, and I only used it on a fully cleaned car  I admit others may do better, but the risk is far too high for me to consider it, so I just cant recommend it, or ever consider using one on paint again


----------



## Avanti

Bigpikle said:


> I didnt watch the vid to be honest....
> 
> I actually have the Kingdom Tools blower and usually use that without a drying towel, when I do a FULL wash. I try and touch the paint as little as possible, usually only with a towel if I am using a QD.


I have a leaf blower but dont use it now or rarely, there was a tool I saw that I would love but it was only available in the US, some wonder blade or something like that similar to what is in the drive through IMO washes


----------



## Bence

Bigpikle said:


> ^^ good question...
> 
> I actually only wash my drying towels about once per 5-6 washes....as they hang in the garage to dry, and only because I usually end up catching small areas I miss with the sponge - under edges of sills usually although sometimes spots like under the edge of the bumper etc  I bet I'm not the only one :lol:


Nope Damon, definitely. I mainly use white towels to dry and they are usually like snow at the end of a washing. Yes they can catch patches of hidden dirt, but that is very uncharacteristic. Actually, in my experience, or for me, the mitt gives me greater control, and I sporadically encounter more *dirt* when using a sponge.

BTW the main reason I wash my drying towels because of the particles of the settling dust. Similarly I wash my towels after a single QD session. Maybe we are different who knows?


----------



## Bigpikle

I tend to blow dry mostly, but once dry I usually fold my towles away into their box and leave them. I only wash them by themselves to avoid any silicone transfer from waxes/QDs etc, so wait until I have a decent load before washing. 

I always wash my MFs after a QD etc like you :thumb:


----------



## Bence

Avanti, ...I'm wondering again where I stated that the soap doesn't have solvents in it... ah, yes, that fancy Limonene... But there are umpteen thousand other solvents in the world - IIRC. 

Nice assumption that I feel offended - but even nicer evasive/defensive skills. I'd explain you if I'd feel offended using very obvious, efficient verbal formulas, but here that is not the point. There are very few OCD washers in the world like Damon, and we are trying to maximize the potential in everybody's washing methodology. 

And using my 1650 watts of combined halogen/metal halide/high performance fluorescent/LED lighting I can analyze any kind of paint damage, incl. micromarring pretty good.


----------



## Bence

Bigpikle said:


> I tend to blow dry mostly, but once dry I usually fold my towles away into their box and leave them. I only wash them by themselves to avoid any silicone transfer from waxes/QDs etc, so wait until I have a decent load before washing.
> 
> I always wash my MFs after a QD etc like you :thumb:


Exactly! :thumb:


----------



## Avanti

Bence said:


> Avanti, ...I'm wondering again where I stated that the soap doesn't have solvents in it... ah, yes, that fancy Limonene... But there are umpteen thousand other solvents in the world - IIRC.
> 
> Nice assumption that I feel offended - but even nicer evasive/defensive skills. I'd explain you if I'd feel offended using very obvious, efficient verbal formulas, but here that is not the point. There are very few OCD washers in the world like Damon, and we are trying to maximize the potential in everybody's washing methodology.
> 
> And using my 1650 watts of combined halogen/metal halide/high performance fluorescent/LED lighting I can analyze any kind of paint damage, incl. micromarring pretty good.


What is the point you are trying to make? If you want an argument get a girlfriend or wife, lets be frank me using a blade should not be your concern should it? You see as going back to the original poster's query, you have not contributed to that I dont recall, and I can understand his concerns as sometimes there is too much bull and scare stories that go around here.
And before you start getting smug best check what a solvent is eh? 
But on your return remember this is a friendly forum, as you can whinge on all you like about what a blade may or may not do, but cannot deny that any drying cloth in fact anything that cause friction does not cause scratching, most here and anywhere are only concerned about marks they can see, what are you gonna do next, go around the vehicle with a microscope? :lol:
Who is Damon by the way? OCD washers? cars are for driving not just looking at, after all here in the UK winter, wash it today and drive 2 miles down the road and the car is dirty again


----------



## MaDMaXX

Avanti, the same reason people use wash mitts instead of sponges is the same reason why using a blade is worse than a drying towel etc.
There is no where for any dirt to go to with the blade. You're arguing against physics, whilst neither are perfect, the blade has to be the worst choice.


----------



## Avanti

MaDMaXX said:


> Avanti, the same reason people use wash mitts instead of sponges is the same reason why using a blade is worse than a drying towel etc.
> There is no where for any dirt to go to with the blade. You're arguing against physics, whilst neither are perfect, the blade has to be the worst choice.


Perhaps the worst choice for you but not for me :wave:, where is this dirt that is getting trapped under the blade? I have asked before and I am asking again perhaps you would care to answer ?


----------



## MaDMaXX

You want me to answer a physics question?

Ok, so, the flat edge of the blade is in full contact with the paint work except for the thin slither of water that you're clearing with the blade it's self.

On a towel, it's got fibres that are not in full contact with the paintwork, allowing any debris to go up into the towel away form the paintwork.

This is just as i said, the exact same reasoning you don't use a sponge!.....


----------



## MidlandsCarCare

Avanti said:


> Perhaps the worst choice for you but not for me :wave:, where is this dirt that is getting trapped under the blade? I have asked before and I am asking again perhaps you would care to answer ?


Are you suggesting that a silicon drying blade cannot scratch paintwork?

I have seen it done many times. Maybe if you are drying a car indoors, then perhaps not, but outdoors, on a windy day, you WILL at some point, scratch your paint if you drag something across it with a blade.


----------



## Avanti

MaDMaXX said:


> You want me to answer a physics question?
> 
> Ok, so, the flat edge of the blade is in full contact with the paint work except for the thin slither of water that you're clearing with the blade it's self.
> 
> On a towel, it's got fibres that are not in full contact with the paintwork, allowing any debris to go up into the towel away form the paintwork.
> 
> This is just as i said, the exact same reasoning you don't use a sponge!.....


the question was once again where is this dirt suddenly appearing from? the car has just been washed , so where is the dirt that is going to get trapped under the blade? Answer that please :thumb:

Also the blade is not in full contact with the paintwork, the silicon rubber is not absorbant so hence between the paintwork and blade there is a film of water acting as a lubricant.


----------



## Avanti

RussZS said:


> Are you suggesting that a silicon drying blade cannot scratch paintwork?
> 
> I have seen it done many times. Maybe if you are drying a car indoors, then perhaps not, but outdoors, on a windy day, you WILL at some point, scratch your paint if you drag something across it with a blade.


No I am not suggesting that at all, just as you are not suggesting that a mitt cannot scratch whilst you are washing the car either , you would thin that after 36 months of use and a good 100 plus washes there would be evidence of damage on my own car ?????


----------



## MidlandsCarCare

Any contact with the paint can cause scratching - mitt, blade, sponge...


----------



## dominic84

I agree with Avanti, if the paintwork is free of dirt then a blade will not cause any marring. The same as clay, sponges, chamois leathers etc - all fine if is used correctly.


----------



## e60mad

....and a car that's just been washed outdoors is only ever seconds away from getting some dirt/dust on it. 

All off topic.

Snow Foaming, is it a waste of time? Who cares, it's f*cking great fun!


----------



## MidlandsCarCare

Well obviously if there is nothing on the paint, the blade on its own won't scratch the paint. It's the risk in its use which is the issue for me, so I only use it on glass now.


----------



## MaDMaXX

Dirt comes from the air, you're always going to have some when drying the freshly washed car.

Russ also states the other point i'm making, you're got a flat blade making contact with the paintwork.
You can ignore the layer of water, the same silicon rubber on the blade that doesn't dry on contact, is designed to cut through the water, down to the surface in order to be an effective dryer.

You're also forgetting that most of the drying from a towel is from absorbency, whereas the blade requires full contact to work.


----------



## MidlandsCarCare

e60mad said:


> ....and a car that's just been washed outdoors is only ever seconds away from getting some dirt/dust on it.
> 
> All off topic.
> 
> Snow Foaming, is it a waste of time? Who cares, it's f*cking great fun!


LOL... well summarised :thumb::lol:


----------



## Avanti

RussZS said:


> Any contact with the paint can cause scratching - mitt, blade, sponge...


Well glad we agree on that, it's when people say it WILL , then I have to challenge their reasoning.
You know every saturday for the last 3 weeks the blade argument has arisen? :lol:


----------



## Avanti

RussZS said:


> Well obviously if there is nothing on the paint, the blade on its own won't scratch the paint. It's the risk in its use which is the issue for me, so I only use it on glass now.


But why even use it on the glass?, the risk is the same if not worse, a scratch on the glass will be more evident than in coloured paintwork.


----------



## MidlandsCarCare

I didn't... it's one that will go on for years. Dirt, in its various forms, being dragged along paint, by whatever means, could create a scratch/swirl.

I guess the debate it how risky is each of the methods. Theoretically, used correctly, they are all fine.

Personally, mitt and towel for me seem to offer me to least risky combination, but nobody should knock anyone else's methods.


----------



## MidlandsCarCare

Avanti said:


> But why even use it on the glass?, the risk is the same if not worse, a scratch on the glass will be more evident than in coloured paintwork.


True... but the surfaces tend to be vertical, so the risk is massively reduced. The main issue for me in the past has been a car's roof or bonnet, which are large, open, flat horizontal surfaces, where debris is more likely to settle.


----------



## Avanti

MaDMaXX said:


> Dirt comes from the air, you're always going to have some when drying the freshly washed car.
> 
> Russ also states the other point i'm making, you're got a flat blade making contact with the paintwork.
> You can ignore the layer of water, the same silicon rubber on the blade that doesn't dry on contact, is designed to cut through the water, down to the surface in order to be an effective dryer.
> 
> You're also forgetting that most of the drying from a towel is from absorbency, whereas the blade requires full contact to work.


here let me answer the question for you, I agree there is airborne dust floating around, as they are light enough to be floating in the wind , there is little to worry about damage it may cause,after all when you drive along the motorway the car would soon be stripped of it's paintwork eh? Going back though the same particle that you fear from the blade is the same particles that should be feared when using a cloth to dry.
You cant ignore the layer of water as it is there, watch the video again and see, it is not there to sell you the concept of using one, you are misguided in what a blade's primary use is , it is to remove the excess water not dry the car, watch the video again and you will see that after one sweep there is still water where the blade has passed, if you are not sure watch the video again, oh and if you notice in the background, there are tress there and a concrete wall, ideal for storing dirt particles to throw on the car just after a wash.
To summarise there is a risk, but the risk of damage is no greater than using a cloth whether it is absorbant or not, when you learn physics and chemistry you will learn that things dont work just to suit yourself :thumb:


----------



## Bence

Maybe that little fact escaped Avanti's attention that if a blade would swim on a thin water film it wouldn't dry the surface.  Yes a thin film dries very quickly, but this is not the point of the blade idea - otherwise windscreen wipers wouldn't work at all because they'd leave a constant film on the glass.

Its twin blades are angled to pull away the water MECHANICALLY, not using a lube film. That is the exact cause it's made of highly elastic silicone because it can follow the contours of the body. And yes, the original idea is the softness, because theoretically it can not scratch the paint. Alone it won't but with the cooperation of any invisibly small grit it will. 

BTW how can anyone ensure that the surface is blingy clean without agitation? Or, OK, let's assume it is clean because the chemical were accordingly aggressive; it would mean that you seriously damage the LSP layer on the vehicle.

Ah yes, I love foaming vehicles - no matter if it's gun or lance - it is a highly entertaining, helpful step.


----------



## Avanti

RussZS said:


> True... but the surfaces tend to be vertical, so the risk is massively reduced. The main issue for me in the past has been a car's roof or bonnet, which are large, open, flat horizontal surfaces, where debris is more likely to settle.


It is reduced but the risk is still there and as such you shouldnt use one at all


----------



## MaDMaXX

Careful avanti, you're claim that i lack physics and chemistry training is borderline offensive, much like some of your other posts in this thread.

The point here is what has less potential danger to the surface, it would seem based on all the other rules and reasons we follow in detailing, like the washmitt instead of a sponge etc.


----------



## Avanti

Bence said:


> Maybe that little fact escaped Avanti's attention that if a blade would swim on a thin water film it wouldn't dry the surface.  Yes a thin film dries very quickly, but this is not the point of the blade idea - otherwise windscreen wipers wouldn't work at all because they'd leave a constant film on the glass.
> 
> Its twin blades are angled to pull away the water MECHANICALLY, not using a lube film. That is the exact cause it's made of highly elastic silicone because it can follow the contours of the body. And yes, the original idea is the softness, because theoretically it can not scratch the paint. Alone it won't but with the cooperation of any invisibly small grit it will.
> 
> BTW how can anyone ensure that the surface is blingy clean without agitation? Or, OK, let's assume it is clean because the chemical were accordingly aggressive; it would mean that you seriously damage the LSP layer on the vehicle.
> 
> Ah yes, I love foaming vehicles - no matter if it's gun or lance - it is a highly entertaining, helpful step.


Bence why not think before you type?

When my wipers are in action that is exactly how they work, they wipe the water to a thin film and then what is left evaporates quickly, if the screen is dry, you hear the screech from the friction of the rubber on the glass.

The surface is clean because you have used the detergent in the correct way to allow it to suspend in a water solution ready to be rinsed away, you do not leave it for 10 mins or other bull**** times 2 or 3 mins max on a good day.
Perhaps you should explain what you mean by aggressive cleaning? Or why say a PH13 shampoo is more like to strip wax/lsp than say PH8?


----------



## Avanti

MaDMaXX said:


> Careful avanti, you're claim that i lack physics and chemistry training is borderline offensive, much like some of your other posts in this thread.
> 
> The point here is what has less potential danger to the surface, it would seem based on all the other rules and reasons we follow in detailing, like the washmitt instead of a sponge etc.


can you use the quote facility as I cannot see where I made an assumption that you lack training of any kind, I asked you to answer a question and still you havent answered, all you are doing is beating about the bush and assuming assumptions.


----------



## caledonia

Ok I have just read page on page on drying a car. Can anyone tell me what the hell this has to do with snow foam. We have all heard this before right or wrong. Detailers carry out there technique differently and what works for one might not be someone Else's cup of tea.

I agree with both side and I am not going to enter into the debate. Tools, technique, understand there uses and benefits. But also they down side come into play.

It will never be resolved here or now.

Thats why we are all individuals with a common interest. What work for one might not another. Towels or blades it you car and you look after it the way you wish.

This will not change anyone views on these items. Right or wrong.


----------



## MaDMaXX

That's because you've posted so many times and not read enough of other peoples posts, to answer both of your points.

And on Caledonia's point, i'm now out as this isn't getting anywhere, you win Avanti. :wall:


----------



## Avanti

caledonia said:


> Ok I have just read page on page on drying a car. Can anyone tell me what the hell this has to do with snow foam. We have all heard this before right or wrong. Detailers carry out there technique differently and what works for one might not be someone Else's cup of tea.
> 
> I agree with both side and I am not going to enter into the debate. Tools, technique, understand there uses and benefits. But also they down side come into play.
> 
> It will never be resolved here or now.
> 
> Thats why we are all individuals with a common interest. What work for one might not another. Towels or blades it you car and you look after it the way you wish.
> 
> This will not change anyone views on these items. Right or wrong.


You are correct with your post on many points :thumb:


----------



## Car Key

Bigpikle said:


> 2. a foam that cleans on contact - BH foam is the best by a wide margin in my experience


 Have you compared against VP PH Neutral?


----------



## Bence

Avanti, to understand that no matter what you are using, the dirt I demoed on my pic is cannot be removed without agitation. NOTHING removes it; no degreaser, no straight APC, no tar remover. And I know how to use chemical in a correct way, no "bul*** times". This clingy film won't go into a suspension. 

BTW the film that wiper leave is not the film we are talking about. The glass is virtually dry when the wiper pass it. Very similar to the blade but with one significant exception: glass is not as sensitive to scratching as paint. For the softer paint films, you need more lubrication, yet a properly made water blade is more precise, flexible and adaptable than a wiper. When you are moving bigger water quantites, it's good because you an remove all that water quickly. But this is not the attack point. The attack point is the thin strip of silicone which comes into mechanical contact with the paint. And you can not guarantee that it will be grit free even with your activethinglyhyper and correctly used chemicals. And since you are not using any agitation, how do you clean the crevices where the dirt accumulates very easily - on the video you start exactly from there... That was the point where I thought that this methodology is unapplicable here and for me.


----------



## BRYHER

Fast and easy answer. 
Wait for it to rain,rush out with a bucket full of soapy duragloss shampoo 1 or 2 buckets you choose . 
Wash the car as its already wet,why bother to rinse the rain does it for you fantastic results.
Not too happy with that, sheet the hose pipe over it watch the rain bead and run still a fantastic result. 
Next stage make a cuppa sit and admire .
Michael
PS. Do it every time it rains .The car is very rarely dirty and the duragloss shampoo makes it look like you have just polished it.


----------



## Avanti

Bence said:


> pointless waffle snipped
> 
> That was the point where I thought that this methodology is unapplicable here and for me.


it is unacceptable to you and that I accept, where does it say that it is unacceptable here?


----------



## caledonia

Car Key said:


> Have you compared against VP PH Neutral?


I have read that Mr B has used this in the past. But just recently has found a new found friend in BH SF and his lovely, big, powerful, shinny new PW. Not that I an jealous or anything. :lol:

I use VP Ph neutral SF and find it extremely affective in its cleaning power cant comment on the BH SF as I have not yet experienced it myself. But by all counts its very effective in the cleaning department.:thumb:


----------



## Bence

Avanti, this is exactly the difference between us...


----------



## MidlandsCarCare

I'll have some BH stuff with me by the end of the week, so can do a 50/50 test against VP Snowfoam...


----------



## caledonia

Avanti said:


> it is unacceptable to you and that I accept, where does it say that it is unacceptable here?





Bence said:


> Avanti, this is exactly the difference between us...


Two minds with the same interest in cleaning and caring for there cars. So wheres the difference apart from technique. 

Come on Kiss and make up.


----------



## Avanti

caledonia said:


> Two minds with the same interest in cleaning and caring for there cars. So wheres the difference apart from technique.
> 
> Come on Kiss and make up.


heh heh I havent fallen out with anybody :argie:


----------



## caledonia

I think we should contact bill on a section about drying cars.
As every week its the same weekend topic. :lol:

It will go down in DW history as one of life's little mysteries.

Give you one thing its the most interesting thread here tonight judging by the people viewing it


----------



## Stevel

caledonia said:


> I think we should contact bill on a section about drying cars.
> As every week its the same weekend topic. :lol:
> 
> It will go down in DW history as one of life's little mysteries.
> 
> Give you one thing its the most interesting thread here tonight judging by the people viewing it


lol. I'm just trying to get the vibes of the forum. Actually I found it quite interesting even if it had bu**er all to do with the OP. :lol:


----------



## Avanti

Stevel said:


> lol. I'm just trying to get the vibes of the forum. Actually I found it quite interesting even if it had bu**er all to do with the OP. :lol:


it did at the beginning :thumb:


----------



## caledonia

Stevel said:


> lol. I'm just trying to get the vibes of the forum. Actually I found it quite interesting even if it had bu**er all to do with the OP. :lol:


And people wonder why they cant find anything the search for.:lol:

I love it also, you get so many different views on products and equipment. But you should try and find them again if you wish to double check something.
Its a nightmare knowing you have read something and canny find it. :wall:

Ok lets start again* Does Snow Foam Work *


----------



## caledonia

I say yes. But it also depends on what you class as spotlessly clean


----------



## Bence

Yes it does - to a certain extent.



caledonia said:


> ...Two minds with the same interest in cleaning and caring for there cars. So wheres the difference apart from technique.


I don't misread "unapplicable" as "unacceptable"...


----------



## petenaud

Bence said:


> Yes it does - to a certain extent.
> 
> I don't misread "unapplicable" as "unacceptable"...


:wall::wall::wall:

i dont know


----------



## Bigpikle

caledonia said:


> Ok lets start again* Does Snow Foam Work *


Back to post #46:

foaming works IF:

1*. you have an LSP that releases dirt easily

2. a foam that cleans on contact

3. a effective pressure washer (effective = flow NOT pressure)*

If you just have a high foaming shampoo mix, and use a low flow rate PW then you are going to get significantly less benefit. Even a poor foam or a pre-soak product, and a good rinse is going to remove some particle matter that would otherwise need to be removed with your mitt/sponge etc, so is going to give some benefits IMHO.


----------



## flyfs6

^^^^^^ agree works best with an effective PW'er.

I've been using snow foam for about a year now. It makes washing the car so much easier, gets rid of some dirt and softens the rest. I went through a phase where I thought its a gimmick, probably because I was using it on a cleanish car or being stingy on the amount I was using.

I really appreciate SF now, for the first time I gave the car a proper SF touchless wash only and I was really amazed how well it worked. The car was filthy & black and after shiny silver.

Like others have said, dilute a generous amount about an 1" in a 1l bottle and let the thing dwell :car:


----------



## Avanti

caledonia said:


> And people wonder why they cant find anything the search for.:lol:
> 
> I love it also, you get so many different views on products and equipment. But you should try and find them again if you wish to double check something.
> Its a nightmare knowing you have read something and canny find it. :wall:
> 
> Ok lets start again* Does Snow Foam Work *


The answer is yes :thumb:
Just don't expect too much on a 1st attempt especially if the surface or soiling is difficult.
more is not necessarily better
Find the product that is right for you (and this may not necessarily be a boutique or mail order only product)
:driver:


----------



## OILRS

flyfs6 said:


> ^^^^^^ agree works best with an effective PW'er.
> 
> I've been using snow foam for about a year now. It makes washing the car so much easier, gets rid of some dirt and softens the rest. I went through a phase where I thought its a gimmick, probably because I was using it on a cleanish car or being stingy on the amount I was using.
> 
> I really appreciate SF now, for the first time I gave the car a proper SF touchless wash only and I was really amazed how well it worked. The car was filthy & black and after shiny silver.
> 
> Like others have said, dilute a generous amount about an 1" in a 1l bottle and let the thing dwell :car:


Spot on mate really good answer, and not forgetting the lance also makes a big difference i run mine threw a karcher K7.91MD and its great :thumb:


----------



## PJS

mick aldo said:


> Just gone with the flow and bought a HD Snow Foam lance and some Megs Hyper Wash.
> 
> Must admit looks great when the vehicle is covered in foam but in my opinion it does nothing that a good blast with the jet wash can do.
> 
> Done several cars and my van with it - it still leaves quite a bit of muck on the vehicle! So , is it that this process just looks good for paying customers, or is to make you look a dick with your neighbours?


Mick, I'd say (as Bigpikle has already alluded to) your LSP (assuming there's any there before foaming) will be a factor in how effective the foaming process is on your vehicle.
Equally, so will the type of grime picked up, and the flow rate of your pressure washer.
Combine that with the strength of the solution on the paintwork, and the length of time it's left to dwell, as well as the type of foam produced/applied.
And that's not counting water temperature too - if you manage to put 40-60ºC through the pw (or just the hosepipe and spray head), you'll manage to achieve better results again.

Bottom line is that the whole of the above is required to be evaluated and contended with, in order to find the right result for your needs.
No-one has offered any info on lance distance from paintwork, but I can assure you, if you're standing back 2-3 feet from the panels, whilst rinsing off, you'd get much the same result if you spat on the panels instead!
You need to be 3-6" from them, in order for the pressure and flow rate to achieve the desired outcome.
Add to that hitting the panel at somewhere between 45 and 60º angle, not too shallow, and preferably not perpendicular (90º/head on).

I'd also draw serious question marks over the effectiveness of your choice of foaming product - there's enough of a difference between formulations of shampoos, and foams designed to "eat" the looser upper level grime.
If you want to rid all grime with one application of foam, you're looking at a proper HD TFR, which will strip your LSP - this, with 90ºC temperatures is what the (better) dealerships will be doing to all cars that come in for preparation before going out again, or sitting on the forecourt.


----------



## Clark @ PB

Sod washing at 90 degrees though!


----------



## PETER @ ECLIPSE

3-6" at that distance your going to shift quite a bit of crap regardless what foam you use, to close personally , get near a stone chip or something and its off to the bodyshop


----------



## OCDMike

I'm fairly new to all this, and i was disappointed on my first go using certain brand of snow foam. My car still had an obvious 'film' of dirt, even after a few applications :detailer:

I then got my hands on some *Valet Pro Snow Foam*, and the difference was immense. Its cleans my car to a degree where u would actually think its clean. :argie:

I use it with a HD Snow Foam lance, with 1 litre bottle. I'll be honest, i normally fill it about 9/10th's with warm water and top up with VP SF, but i'm not 'exact' in the measurements and it works fine. :thumb:

I normally do it so it looks more like soapy water on the first application, leave it 5 mins, then rinse, then do a thick foam, leave for 5 mins, and its more or less spotless! 

Sorry if everyone is past this bit, just couldn't be arsed reading 11 pages of debate.. :lol:


----------



## mick aldo

OCDMike said:


> I'm fairly new to all this, and i was disappointed on my first go using certain brand of snow foam. My car still had an obvious 'film' of dirt, even after a few applications :detailer:
> 
> I then got my hands on some *Valet Pro Snow Foam*, and the difference was immense. Its cleans my car to a degree where u would actually think its clean. :argie:
> 
> I use it with a HD Snow Foam lance, with 1 litre bottle. I'll be honest, i normally fill it about 9/10th's with warm water and top up with VP SF, but i'm not 'exact' in the measurements and it works fine. :thumb:
> 
> I normally do it so it looks more like soapy water on the first application, leave it 5 mins, then rinse, then do a thick foam, leave for 5 mins, and its more or less spotless!
> 
> Sorry if everyone is past this bit, just couldn't be arsed reading 11 pages of debate.. :lol:


valet pro do two which do you use?


----------



## nick_mcuk

Stevel said:


> *Is snow foam just a gimmick? *
> 
> Well the man from Meguires said it is so it must be true.


Wow that is the only thing i would agree with that Megs Say!


Never foamed a car and never had problems....a good pre-wash with the pressure washer and good wash technique is all you need.

Ok ask yourself this....if the foam is pulling the dirt off its going to be removing some LSP for sure...if it has the power to shift dirt with out touch its not good and must be similar to TFR...albeit weaker??!?!?!

But each to their own.....we all do stuff differently....and for me snow foam wont go near any of my cars!


----------



## OCDMike

mick aldo said:


> valet pro do two which do you use?


Just the standard, not the PH. :thumb:


----------



## PJS

Clark said:


> Sod washing at 90 degrees though!



I know you don't - none of us here do, as we don't have the machinery to do so. 60ºC is likely to be the highest any of us could do, using non-heating domestic machines.

It's just what I know a number of local car dealerships use when prep'ing new cars, or giving their customers' a courtesy wash prior to/after servicing.
As you'll know well, valeters are paid per car, so the less time they spend "faffing about" results in more cars getting done each day - hence the manual sprayer pre-wash application, followed by the high temperature rinse.


----------



## PJS

ECLIPSE AUTO VALET said:


> 3-6" at that distance your going to shift quite a bit of crap regardless what foam you use, to close personally , get near a stone chip or something and its off to the bodyshop


That in essence, is the whole point of using a pressure washer.
That said though, you do have a potential point regarding the stone chip, if untouched or newly formed since the last wash.


----------



## MrLOL

Clark said:


> Sod washing at 90 degrees though!





Clark said:


> Foaming is very effective.


Is clark becomming DW's very own mika hakkinen ?


----------



## Clark @ PB

MrLOL said:


> Is clark becomming DW's very own mika hakkinen ?


no.


----------



## drive 'n' shine

PJS said:


> That in essence, is the whole point of using a pressure washer.
> That said though, you do have a potential point regarding the stone chip, if untouched or newly formed since the last wash.


Are seriously recommending people use a PW at 3 - 6" away from their paintwork?

I'm sorry but if your PW is only effective at that distance you need to get a new one :lol:


----------



## PJS

You seem to have misinterpreted my comment as suggesting that that close a distance is the only effective distance - it'll depend greatly on the pressure (constant, not peak) and flow rate of the machine being used by the individual.
My point was that you should not be so concerned as to not realise better results can be achieved from usage at a distance closer than you perhaps currently use it at, for no real reason other than it seems right or irrational fear of damaging the paint, when it won't.
I can easily clean the alloys from 6 inches with or without any pre-treatment, to a more or less pristine condition - painted alloys are no different to painted panels in that aspect.
But if I stand back and throw the water at them, they won't clean up as much or without the help of a good soaking with a wheel cleaner.
But for one reason or another, my impression is the majority of users are standing too far back to make the most of the pressurised water they're chucking at the grime - foamed or not.

So, I'm not quite sure I follow your comment above - maybe some additional words are needed to clarify your point?


----------



## Jakedoodles

Paul Dalton. AHahahaha.


----------



## Clark @ PB

One of the biggest mistakes i see from people when rinsing their car after a pre-foam is that they only spend a couple of minutes doing it. I quite regularly take a good 10/15 minutes sometimes to give a car a thorough rinse off. This ensures that i cover every inch of each panel and get right up in the arches etc


----------



## Jochen

Indeed. Don't just rince the foam away but imagine the waterstream from the PW as your hand. You have to carefully cover your whole car, just like washing with a mitt.


----------



## Avanti

PJS said:


> You seem to have misinterpreted my comment as suggesting that that close a distance is the only effective distance - it'll depend greatly on the pressure (constant, not peak) and flow rate of the machine being used by the individual.
> My point was that you should not be so concerned as to not realise better results can be achieved from usage at a distance closer than you perhaps currently use it at, for no real reason other than it seems right or irrational fear of damaging the paint, when it won't.
> I can easily clean the alloys from 6 inches with or without any pre-treatment, to a more or less pristine condition - painted alloys are no different to painted panels in that aspect.
> But if I stand back and throw the water at them, they won't clean up as much or without the help of a good soaking with a wheel cleaner.
> But for one reason or another, my impression is the majority of users are standing too far back to make the most of the pressurised water they're chucking at the grime - foamed or not.


Well said that man! 
one quote I wish I had thought of is "for no real reason other than it seems right or irrational fear of damaging the paint, when it won't." (but we wont talk of using drying aids right now) Also nice to see that more discussion from some of you regarding improving power washer techniques as it's not all just about chemicals :thumb:


----------



## PJS

Thank you Avanti.


----------



## Automake

In my opinion, Snow foaming is probably best suited on cars which have already been detailed, if the vehicle has good paint then the surface grime is not going to stick or bake on to the the paint surface.

Yesterday i snow foamed my dads 56 plate white hijet van, i was using a foam lance i purchased from Elite as well as their own brand snow foam.
The pressure washer was a Karcher HDS 601 eco, i set the temp at 40 degrees and filled the snow foam lance bottle with the required dilution levels.

The foam was thick and looked great, however.. after leaving it to dwel l for about 8 mins, i then rinced at full pressure.. the dirt was still on the van!

The only thing that would shift the grime without using any contact with the vehicle was diluted TFR in a pump sprayer, this work really well.

So to conclude.. i think that if the van had a good coat of wax to start with maybe the snowfoam would of worked better. Unlike TRF snowfoam has no real "bite" to remove the dirt.:wave:


----------



## PJS

Automakeover said:


> The foam was thick and looked great, however.. after leaving it to dwel l for about 8 mins, i then rinced at full pressure.. the dirt was still on the van!
> 
> The only thing that would shift the grime without using any contact with the vehicle was diluted TFR in a pump sprayer, this work really well.
> 
> So to conclude.. i think that if the van had a good coat of wax to start with maybe the snowfoam would of worked better. Unlike TRF snowfoam has no real "bite" to remove the dirt.:wave:


Bit too much of a generalisation that snowfoams have no real "bite", and it's highly probable that the snowfoam used as above, at the temperature described, softened the grime, that a second foaming may have done the same trick as the TFR did.
Then again, what distance did you have the lance from the paint when rinsing off the snowfoam?

As in my above comment, I demonstrated to a couple of the attendees of the local meet we had at the weekend, how putting the lance 3" from the paint removed dirt that had been purposefully left on for the best part of 6 weeks, after a cold water foaming with probably too dilute a mixture of pH Neutral foam.


----------



## Alex-Clio

Avanti said:


> Show me the grit and show me the scratches


The whole point is, the grit particles are so small that you aren't likely to see them when you may be dragging a blade over them.

And the difference with MF towels is, theres a greater surface area for the grit to be spread out over, rather than the concentrated area between a thing rubber blade and paintwork


----------



## slim_boy_fat

PJS said:


> ..as we don't have the machinery to do so. 60ºC is likely to be the highest any of us could do, using non-heating domestic machines. QUOTE]
> 
> Aren't we talking degrees of attack as opposed to degrees celcius?


----------



## Avanti

Alex-Clio said:


> The whole point is, the grit particles are so small that you aren't likely to see them when you may be dragging a blade over them.
> 
> And the difference with MF towels is, theres a greater surface area for the grit to be spread out over, rather than the concentrated area between a thing rubber blade and paintwork


Gosh, not even one day into 2009 and the arguments start :lol:
At the end of the day, it is what the user believes is happening physcally as they clean their car, since I have power washed my car with a washer that has a very good flow rate, I do not believe and grit particles remain on the surface, if there is grit floating around in the wind, then it does not have the mass to cause any worry.As mentioned in this or another thread, no excessive pressure should be applied to the tool in any instance, one is removing excess beading water not drying the car with the tool .
But you have to adopt the method you believe to be most succesful and safe for your own circumstances.


----------



## silverback

from my limited knowledge and noob detailing experience im in the camp that thinks snow foam is great.does it clean the car thoroughly ? no,but it does take some **** off as its there running down my driveway mixed into the snowfoam.i have been snowfoaming my car from new and have never machine polished it,but im always impressed after it gets a clean. i think it helps the cleaning process, but its certainly not a one stop solution.


----------



## dumbuck

mick aldo said:


> Just gone with the flow and bought a HD Snow Foam lance and some Megs Hyper Wash.
> 
> Must admit looks great when the vehicle is covered in foam but in my opinion it does nothing that a good blast with the jet wash can do.
> 
> Done several cars and my van with it - it still leaves quite a bit of muck on the vehicle! So , is it that this process just looks good for paying customers, or is to make you look a dick with your neighbours?


Any ideas on which foam (if any) is better suited for the Gilmour Foam Gun?

I'm using Hyper Wash through it at the moment and can't seem to get the consistency anything like that which is in some of the photos where a lance is used.

I've tried varying the setting on the gun, but it's either too thin and runs off almost immediately, or its like shaving foam and lasts only a minute or so.

Mix ratio is 2 pumps of HW with bottle topped up with warm water


----------



## evoke

Snow foam was an absolute waste of time for me. It made zero difference to the grime on my car but just wasted time. Plus, cleaning the driveway afterwards took as long as cleaning the whole car!

Each to their own though. I'm glad that many people find it beneficial. I just wish I did!


----------



## Avanti

evoke said:


> Snow foam was an absolute waste of time for me. It made zero difference to the grime on my car but just wasted time. Plus, cleaning the driveway afterwards took as long as cleaning the whole car!
> 
> Each to their own though. I'm glad that many people find it beneficial. I just wish I did!


What combination are you using?


----------



## MaDMaXX

The gilmour won't give you the foam, it's not designed for it, you'll need a foam lance to get anything that foamy.


----------



## Rundie

evoke said:


> Snow foam was an absolute waste of time for me. It made zero difference to the grime on my car but just wasted time. Plus, cleaning the driveway afterwards took as long as cleaning the whole car!
> 
> Each to their own though. I'm glad that many people find it beneficial. I just wish I did!


I'm beginning to think this way, got a couple of types of snow foam too and I really am questioning if it's worth the extra time and mess?


----------



## evoke

Avanti said:


> What combination are you using?


I had the Auto Rae-Chem lance with the snow foam (with a Karcher pressure washer). I tried varying nozzle settings and various dilutions. I got lots of great snow foam on the car that dwelled for ages. I've tried varying dwell times. It makes zero difference as far as I can tell. My cars tend not to be that dirty anyway so it's even more of a waste of time as a light wash with a good shampoo and wahs mitt would get the grime off in minutes anyway.

With a very dirty car that hasn't been washed for a year or two, a good soaking with snow foam would probably be beneficial.


----------



## rat20v

Works a treat for me to be honest.


----------



## Avanti

evoke said:


> I had the Auto Rae-Chem lance with the snow foam (with a Karcher pressure washer). I tried varying nozzle settings and various dilutions. I got lots of great snow foam on the car that dwelled for ages. I've tried varying dwell times. It makes zero difference as far as I can tell. My cars tend not to be that dirty anyway so it's even more of a waste of time as a light wash with a good shampoo and wahs mitt would get the grime off in minutes anyway.
> 
> With a very dirty car that hasn't been washed for a year or two, a good soaking with snow foam would probably be beneficial.


I meant which shampoo product and which machine , Karcher do good machines and they do not so good ones


----------



## PJS

slim_boy_fat said:


> PJS said:
> 
> 
> 
> ..as we don't have the machinery to do so. 60ºC is likely to be the highest any of us could do, using non-heating domestic machines.
> 
> 
> 
> Aren't we talking degrees of attack as opposed to degrees celcius?
Click to expand...

Not sure if you misunderstood my point, or I'm misunderstanding yours.
I was referring to warm water being of additional benefit, especially if you can hook it up to a mixer tap to get the 40-60ºC useable by domestic pw's.


----------



## Automake

When the better weather finally comes (today was -6) i will look into a non caustic TFR, i know Autosmart make a product called "Hazsafe" maybe this will mix with the snowfoam? i wonder if this will result in lots of lovelly foam which actually removes traffic film and dirt etc... watch this space!!


----------



## citizenal

When I first tried snowfoaming a couple of months ago I thought the same thing, but now having tried Espuma Activo from Tim at Envy Valeting I can say that I am now pleased with snow foaming. From my 8 tries with regular snow foam to the 3 times with Espuma Activo I already see a big difference. Really does remove alot of dirt compared to other snow foams and worth the price for me. Even with the really high shipping rates I think it's worth using snow foam if it actually removes dirt and not just sit there pretty like shaving cream as I only wash the cars and machine polish them.


----------



## Envy Car Care

I must say I'm a fan of snow foam and use it as part of my detailing, anything to reduce the chance of damage via hands on work has to be good.
I did a car earlier this week knowing I was going to drive it to the Pistonheads show from Hampshire. I carried out a protection detail as per normal, and when I got to the NEC all I did was foam it and rinse and it was pretty much clean.
I did go over it with a mitt to make sure, but 99% clean already.
SSF has a place on a well detailed/protected car and I feel it will give the touchless wash we all crave.
It is NOT so effective at being totally touchless on an unprotected car but that is to be expected I feel.
Best wishes
Tim


----------



## Sav

Foamed today with SSF and HD-lance for the first time and loved it....I could see the dirt in the snow on the drive.....then I rinsed, done it again and then washed with wool mit and Gil and a Bucket with grit guard. But in all honesty it’s a very fine dirty film that’s left for the mit. But it does need the mit to agitate that’s for sure.


----------



## Guest

Using a foam or a spray as part of the pre-wash process helps immensely. The good pre-wash process should be able to remove all solid debris from the paintwork, leaving only the greasy layer of road grime remaining - I'll admit to acheiving no better than this with cold water. 

IMO, if the pre-wash stage is not managing this then you are either using the wrong products or, more likely, the wrong technique. IME, you do need to use a product that is specifically designed for the task - a conventional shampoo is just not going to work.

As a slight aside, reading through this thread is quite humerous with regards to fears of trapping grit during the drying phase. Time needs to be deovoted to the final rinsing process which, as previously stated, should take several minutes - I tend to spend at least 10mins pressure rinsing the bodywork of my cars. 

TBH, if you are worried about trapping grit after this stage when do you reach a point where you are happy to apply an LSP or even polish the paintwork?


----------



## [email protected]

for me i find that every bit of dirt softened or removed during the foaming process is one less thing for me to drag across the paintowrk when the 2bm commences after all if a prewash got rid of everything it wouldnt be a prewash it would be just the wash


----------



## Rowan83

[email protected] said:


> for me i find that every bit of dirt softened or removed during the foaming process is one less thing for me to drag across the paintowrk when the 2bm commences after all if a prewash got rid of everything it wouldnt be a prewash it would be just the wash


and it's fun


----------



## Mr Whippy

Just from observation, not sure how these really foamy ones work, as they just sit with 90% of the product hovering ontop of that in contact with the paint until it is rinsed off, and it doesn't move much, so it's not going to move much either.

These foamy ones that almost remove themselves after 5 minutes appear a better idea, as most of the material comes into contact with the paint and so will have more removal capacity, and it also gets it off the car before you fire water at it, pushing any remaining particles around the surface...


I actually think those really heavy thick static foams are probably pointless, surely the best ones for this initial clean process are those more mobile thinner ones that almost totally clear themselves?


----------



## Jochen

I think it's not the movement of the foam that's removes the grime but the blast with the powerwasher afterwards. The foam only lifts the dirt and softens it.


----------



## HairyG

For what it's worth, my car gets very muddy almost every time I take it out and I have taken to giving it a frequent blast with foam just to get the grit off.

The result is nowhere near being clean (by DW standards) but it does stop the mud building up and makes the car look "cared for".

It took a few goes before I got the mixture right, but now I can turn a mud ball back into a sexy tourer in about 15 minutes without touching the paint, just foam on, rinse off.

About every 3rd foaming I follow up with a 2BM wash.

The car is a 1994 Mercedes SL, so is quite large if nice and low.


----------



## Mr Whippy

Jochen said:


> I think it's not the movement of the foam that's removes the grime but the blast with the powerwasher afterwards. The foam only lifts the dirt and softens it.


But, if the foam is so thick it's not mobile, or very slow to move, then 95% of the product is just sat ontop of more foam.

The rinse clearly removes alot of the softened mud/dirt/grime, but what does that softening/lifting is the foam, and it's movement/flow/ability to interface with the paint would probably be optimum under certain conditions.

I'd argue that if it's so thick that it's not cleared after 5 mins, then it's not really an efficient use of 90% of the cleaning agent/softening of grime potential within that material.

I think this looks ideal:









Dave


----------



## Clark @ PB

I did a complete touchless wash on a Gallardo yesterday just with Hyperwash through the foam lance


----------



## DE 1981

personally i only use bilt hamber autofoam now after much trialing and testing of others, its not a thick shaving foam type foam which personally i think are a waste of time but its cleaning powers are second to none when it comes to touchless washes.


----------



## Guest

Clark said:


> I did a complete touchless wash on a Gallardo yesterday just with Hyperwash through the foam lance


That's great.. I'd expect it looks good too, but

If you clayed your car, you'd come up with things that are embedded in your LSP. And even worse in the summertime, when a wax has softened and been attacked much harsher.

Foam has it's benifits. I believe B-H has it correctly. It's not a shaving cream style you want, It's a detergent to lessen the muck and help it leave the surface so when you start a proper wash you have minimal surface dirt attached that will not move.

Another way to look at it. would you use just pure water and a rag? Or soap and water and a mitt? Then why not add just one more step and pre-soak it with some type of foam then attack the surface with your best soap and wash techniques? I know of plenty of times while washing I wished there was a foamy something on the surface instead nothing, because the water had just left that I rinsed down with, before I got to it with a soapy mitt.

Oh, re-reading this, please don't think I'm attacking you Clark. I just wanted to comment on the original topic and think a complete touch-less wash like you did also has it's place too.


----------



## liamsxa

i use citrus snow foam, doesnt need to be that long and takes some amount of crap off, i tested on a white car just blasting it with the pressue washer, then snow foamed the other have, then pressure washed it off difference was night and day, its a great product.


----------



## fleagala

Do you need to use a pressure washer to get the foam off, or is a hose good enough?


----------



## Avanti

Cyclo said:


> That's great.. I'd expect it looks good too, but
> 
> If you clayed your car, you'd come up with things that are embedded in your LSP. And even worse in the summertime, when a wax has softened and been attacked much harsher.


That would be the case from a mitt wash also 
When I see some posts that they let the solution dwell for 8-10 mins etc I know it is time to get the BS repellant out .


----------



## Avanti

fleagala said:


> Do you need to use a pressure washer to get the foam off, or is a hose good enough?


How does one get the foam on in the 1st place?
ideally it would be better to use a power washer and the power washer plays a key role in applying the foam solution in the 1st place.


----------



## fleagala

Avanti said:


> How does one get the foam on in the 1st place?
> ideally it would be better to use a power washer and the power washer plays a key role in applying the foam solution in the 1st place.


http://www.elitecarcare.co.uk/gilmour-foamaster-ii-pro-foam-gun-and-free-1-litre-snow-fo.php
im pretty sure i read that you can use a normal hose.. feel free to prove me wrong though!
I'm just a bit scared about using a pressure washer on my car..


----------



## Avanti

fleagala said:


> http://www.elitecarcare.co.uk/gilmour-foamaster-ii-pro-foam-gun-and-free-1-litre-snow-fo.php
> im pretty sure i read that you can use a normal hose.. feel free to prove me wrong though!
> I'm just a bit scared about using a pressure washer on my car..


That unit will give some good suds , will be touch n go if you get the foam effect many refer to. Nowt to be scared of with power washing many people have been doing so for a long time :thumb:


----------



## fleagala

Avanti said:


> That unit will give some good suds , will be touch n go if you get the foam effect many refer to. Nowt to be scared of with power washing many people have been doing so for a long time :thumb:


I did it! Bought an HD lance, used the power washer!

Used it on 2 different cars, and I have to say, it really worked! I could see the dirt running down the driveway!


----------



## Ross

Bilt Hamber Auto Foam is the only way to go IMO


----------



## Avanti

RosswithaOCD said:


> Bilt Hamber Auto Foam is the only way to go IMO


Are you saying that product will perform any better than (just to name a few) AG pressure wash, Swarfega Vehicle wash, car plan pressure wash shampoo, Auto rae snow wax?

Or even a dosage of zeemol autowash, TW platinum wash, AG BSC, Simoniz max wax ? :wave:


----------



## Ross

Yes IMO


----------



## Avanti

RosswithaOCD said:


> Yes IMO


At least 3 out out of the 4 pressure washer shampoo's I'm sure would 'win' the cleaning ability one of them would easily match


----------



## dezzy

I use one of these with a normal hose: http://www.polishedbliss.co.uk/acatalog/gilmour-foamaster-II-foam-gun-wash.html. I use Meguiars Hyperwash with it.

However, I find that the foam doesn't really cling to the car's bodywork. It just starts to slide off immediately. I do think it makes a difference before washing but it doesn't provide that "snow" look that a lot of the pictures on here show. I've tried adjusting the mix but still the same results.

Is the only way to get the results I see in all the pics on here to use a foam lance with a pressure washer?

Cheers,
D


----------



## Avanti

fleagala said:


> I did it! Bought an HD lance, used the power washer!
> 
> Used it on 2 different cars, and I have to say, it really worked! I could see the dirt running down the driveway!


Glad to learn you were successful in your quest :thumb:


----------



## The Cueball

Is snow foam a gimmick???

I don't know, and I don't care!

I use it to wash my car ever week, and it only takes minutes, and I like using it - just like my unhealthy obsesion with claying too... 

If you enjoy doing it, great, if not who cares???

The only thing I will say (and setting myself up to br proved wrong straight away) is that I can't remember seeing a full detail being posted in the showroom or studio that does not include snow foam........

:thumb:


----------



## nick_mcuk

panama said:


> foaming is essential if you dont want to be scrubbing large dirt particles into your paint.


Pfff I have never foamed any of my cars and I have never "Quote" ...scrubbing large dirt particles into your paint"

I think its is a nice thing but tbh I cant see it really being any different to a type of TFR and its gotta kill LSP life no arguments.

But each to their own...for me its a gimmick and i dont do it....never have never will!


----------



## Avanti

nick_mcuk said:


> Pfff I have never foamed any of my cars and I have never "Quote" ...scrubbing large dirt particles into your paint"
> 
> I think its is a nice thing but tbh I cant see it really being any different to a type of TFR and its gotta kill LSP life no arguments.
> 
> But each to their own...for me its a gimmick and i dont do it....never have never will!


I agree, one shouldn't be scrubbing large particles from the paintwork.
The argument about it killing LSP doesn't wash (sorry for the pun) , but there is a unique way for TFRs to remove wax and it is not easy to mimic, being scinical , I know some folk on here can just have to mention the words washing up liquid whilst standing near their vehicle and the wax falls off, hell knows why they don't get a position in a paintshop and save the garage £££s by not having to purchase purpose chemicla for wax removal. basically they are bull****ting! Anyways you can tell when wax is coming off as the surface is very slimy even while rinsing with a power washer.
Finally for now, wax naturally decays over 2 - 3 months so irrespective of which wax you have on your vehicle at this time of year , if it is kept outside or driven regularly through the week it will need topping up


----------



## Deano

nick_mcuk said:


> Pfff I have never foamed any of my cars and I have never "Quote" ...scrubbing large dirt particles into your paint"
> 
> I think its is a nice thing but tbh I cant see it really being any different to a type of TFR and its gotta kill LSP life no arguments.
> 
> But each to their own...for me its a gimmick and i dont do it....never have never will!


but you can see dirt coming off with the foam so how can it be a gimmick? maybe it does affect lsp life but in my experience with maintenance washes its so little that by the time it comes time for a wax or selant top up there is still protection on there. so if you wash your car wax etc etc then the week after it gets dirty, do you just go straight in with the wash or use a TFR and remove most if not all the protection you layed down the week before? if it was a gimick you wouldnt notice a difference. but I foam my own car before every wash and even when it looks fairly clean you can see the dirt coming off with the foam. I'm intrigued to know your wash routine on very dirty cars (or any car for that matter) if you dont foam or use a TFR yet maintain you're not inflicting any damage by quote "scrubbing large articles" into your paint.


----------



## Bilt-Hamber Lab

Avanti said:


> At least 3 out out of the 4 pressure washer shampoo's I'm sure would 'win' the cleaning ability one of them would easily match


Please tell me how you are sure of this? Which one have you found best?


----------



## Needs a clean

The Cueball said:


> Is snow foam a gimmick???
> 
> I don't know, and I don't care!
> 
> I use it to wash my car ever week, and it only takes minutes, and I like using it - just like my unhealthy obsesion with claying too...
> 
> If you enjoy doing it, great, if not who cares???
> 
> The only thing I will say (and setting myself up to br proved wrong straight away) is that I can't remember seeing a full detail being posted in the showroom or studio that does not include snow foam........
> 
> :thumb:


I cannot say i care either. All i know is that it seems to do the job. Oh, its good fun putting it on too! :lol::lol::lol::lol:


----------



## Guest

panama said:


> I'm intrigued to know your wash routine on very dirty cars (or any car for that matter) if you dont foam or use a TFR yet maintain you're not inflicting any damage by quote "scrubbing large articles" into your paint.


I don't want to sound funny here but what are you classing as "damage"?

Dave_KG washed his car for 1 or 2 years (can't remember which) without snowfoam IIRC, and he said he got away without severe swirls.

If you are classing any sort of visible swirls as damage then fair enough, I won't argue that snowfoaming will reduce those chances, however it is perfectly possible to clean a car without inflicting what i'd call "damaging" scratches. Pressure washers and especially foam lances only took off 7~ years ago. Many people don't own a pressure washer yet get away with fairly good paint.

One of my (yet another) neighbours washes his car practically once every two days using bucket and sponge, and has done for around a decade, I happened to bump into him a few weeks ago (he moved house) and I took a special point of looking at his paintwork and there were no swirls visible from me sitting in my car, parked bumper to bumper with his. The sun wasn't out but I wouldn't say his paintwork was damaged, infact, for a 16 year old car it looked very good, I only wished mine looked as nice!


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## Deano

^^ yeah mate i meant swirls. but i have seen large and deep scratches inflicted by poor wash technique. and also mate thats dave we're talking about. he would have been super careful. (not saying the rest of you arent like). snowfoam IMO greatly reduces the chances of swirls due to trapped dirt. and you wont see any swirls sat in your car with the sun not out. if paint damage was assessed like that 98% of the cars on the road would look spot on.


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## nick_mcuk

G220 said:


> I don't want to sound funny here but what are you classing as "damage"?
> 
> Dave_KG washed his car for 1 or 2 years (can't remember which) without snowfoam IIRC, and he said he got away without severe swirls.
> 
> If you are classing any sort of visible swirls as damage then fair enough, I won't argue that snow foaming will reduce those chances, however it is perfectly possible to clean a car without inflicting what i'd call "damaging" scratches. Pressure washers and especially foam lances only took off 7~ years ago. Many people don't own a pressure washer yet get away with fairly good paint.
> 
> One of my (yet another) neighbours washes his car practically once every two days using bucket and sponge, and has done for around a decade, I happened to bump into him a few weeks ago (he moved house) and I took a special point of looking at his paintwork and there were no swirls visible from me sitting in my car, parked bumper to bumper with his. The sun wasn't out but I wouldn't say his paintwork was damaged, infact, for a 16 year old car it looked very good, I only wished mine looked as nice!


Like wise had a whole year of weekly washes on the Audi and there was very minimal swirling when I did the yearly 2 day detail on it.

Another car I look after is a black Gallant V6 Sport (which gets a 6 monthly top up detail) has been washed weekly with the 1 bucket method and a sponge and again after 6 months it had minimal swirls.

You can get rid of most of the crud on the surface by giving it a damn good pressure wash (i use a pressure steam cleaner) for mega stubborn stuff like dried on bird crap wet it down then come back and hit it again and 98% of the time you will get it all off..and those that give resistance a small spray of CG Bug and Tar (weak mix) normally solves this.

Washing with a mitt or sponge is neither here nor there...as long as you keep the implement clean and well rinsed, and do the car top to bottom and rinse out between panels you really wont inflict any real damage as has been proved and mentioned in previous messages.

As I said before each to thier own if you enjoy the snow foam experience....then crack on I personally dont use it and have no need.


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## Guest

Fair enough  scratches is typical not dipping into the bucket frequently enough I think, or clearly going over very dirty areas and not rinsing, our cars are often caked in really thick dirt from the back lanes, and until we started using the PW a lot more about 3 years ago, i've never (to my knowledge) put a "scratch" into the paint, the first thing my dad taught me was rinse the sponge if you drop it, yet it seems quite a lot of people don't do that (according to stories on here).


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## Avanti

Bilt-Hamber Lab said:


> Please tell me how you are sure of this? Which one have you found best?


Indeed you are correct, my 'tests' are not to a lab standard so I can only report as I use a product.
I have used BH wash products along with others on various cars with varying soiling .
In my conclusion of if a wash product has worked for a mitless wash is when I come to dry the paintwork with a bright yellow microfibre cloth.
With some products even after a good rinse it is obvious the product has not worked, then some products the panels look clean yet when the microfibre is passed over the panel, it soon becomes soiled (so hence that product has not worked either) .
Products that work are ones that have been applied via some mixing method left to dwell and rinsed away before dry patches appear, then if the drying stage is completed and the cloth has picked up no visible soiling , then that is past the benchmark level (for me it does not need to be clean beyond that as 1)it is not visible 2) the vehicle will over the next few days become soiled again)

I have used BH foam and wash products on my own car along with the others I have mentioned earlier, they all work to my (man in the street) standards and conclude a succesfull mitless wash leaving no excess soiling on the drying cloth.
For me posting that 3 of the 4 would 'beat' the BH is not scientific and 'wrong' so for that I apologise if that has caused any offence.

I am just mindful of the quality of some poster product recommendations, which although they are giving the thumbs up, the 'aggressive' way they recommend it in my eyes is actually doing a dis credit to the possible good quality of a product line. 
For me some products I 'avoid' if some posters have recommended them since their other recomendations have proven to be a 'duff' product as in they do not meet the expectations of what the marketer had promised, and conversely products they have dissaproved turn out to be great value and performing lines.


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## Bilt-Hamber Lab

Avanti thanks for the apology, - we take care and time in testing our products *objectively, side-by-side on the same soils and panels - that way we know if they're as good as they can get or not.

We pride ourselves on our testing - this is the way we run the business. We aim to make the products work and work well. There are industry standard Black Box tests for surfactants etc that show - with no argument, or subjecture how well a product works. We use these routinely.

We have no trolls, planted posters etc and I would not ever endorse such action. If a customer is supportive of our products I would hope it is because they are a happy with the performance - even if they have used the same subjective methods that you have to compare products. I would be more than happy to supply our product free of charge for a side-by-side test on the filthiest vehicle against any other similar product of your choice. We could get a third party to do the test - that would be fair!*


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## Avanti

Bilt-Hamber Lab said:


> Avanti thanks for the apology, - we take care and time in testing our products *objectively, side-by-side on the same soils and panels - that way we know if they're as good as they can get or not.
> 
> We pride ourselves on our testing - this is the way we run the business. We aim to make the products work and work well. There are industry standard Black Box tests for surfactants etc that show - with no argument, or subjecture how well a product works. We use these routinely.
> 
> {snip}
> We could get a third party to do the test - that would be fair!*


*

I agree with a 3rd party 'show down' test not necessarily to know which is the best cleaner or foamer but simply to know which products will deliver as promised, we see plenty of wax/polish tests here.
I know many will not agree but perhaps one of the high street publication authors could review some of the product lines we often read about on here .
If nothing else the ones that do not meet the mark can instruct their chemists to review what they are offering to the consumer.*


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## Bilt-Hamber Lab

Avanti said:


> If nothing else the ones that do not meet the mark can instruct their chemists to review what they are offering to the consumer.


You'ld be surprised at how much effort goes into making these products work - its easy to make a nice high-foaming snow foam/ PW shampoo/TFR but to get one that shifts stubborn grime at 4-5% is quite a time-consuming task - trust me I know:thumb: That's why I get quite animated about it I suppose.


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## isherdholi

Snow foaming as part of your wash process is not a gimmick, as long as you use the right foam.

Have a look at this: -

http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=103651

Would you call it a gimmick?


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## MaDMaXX

isherdholi said:


> Snow foaming as part of your wash process is not a gimmick, as long as you use the right foam.
> 
> Have a look at this: -
> 
> http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=103651
> 
> Would you call it a gimmick?


Yup, +1

I have had very easy and very successful use of the BH Autofoam.

I first bought a lance and PH Neutral foam last year beginning the winter months.

I concluded that snow foaming did not do what i expected it to, but after a couple of weeks, decided that although it never cleaned, it did make the dirt much easier to wash mitt off.

I continued and further found out that putting the jet closer to the paint (a little too close for my liking) that it cleaned a fair bit off, again, making the wash mitt very easy to wash.

I tried BH Autofoam once i'd discovered the BH line of products and found the rest of them to be very effective and doing nothing less that stated. The independent tests on them really helped back them up in my mind.

Short of it, Autofoam very easily, without even thinking about it (or as it turns out, using the correct amount (enough) of foam) that it did exactly wat i thought snow foaming would do back before i bought the lance.

I'm very happy with their products, i think i'm only short about two out of the entire range, i've bough more of those i've run out of and i find all of them very very good in their performance.


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