# Scholl Concepts NEO Honey Spider Review



## Steampunk (Aug 11, 2011)

*Scholl Concepts NEO Honey Spider Review*

The Ultimate DA Finishing Pad

* Prelude to War*​
Detailing is about control. Seeking perfection in an imperfect world. The battle is the fight between expectation and reality… The base-code human desire to want what we cannot have, and to dream big dreams.

This battle rages for me in detailing the strongest, when faced with soft, sticky, sensitive paints that struggle to finish down perfectly without that faint, clarity-robbing haze… I could fill. That would be the sensible thing to do… Minimal fuss. Job done. With products like CarPro Essence, fillers are durable, these days…

But no. I have an internal code of conduct. I want to know that something in this world is real… That I have fought and won. To be rewarded with clarity after fully stripping the panel bare… That the part of my life I devoted to learning this has meant something…

Turning information into knowledge points you in the right direction… Practice, gaining experience, walks the path… But sometimes, the right tools make all the difference between frustration and success.

*Tools of the Trade*​
There are two materials in my time spent detailing that have taught me more, and forced me to learn more than any other…








The first is the original, British Leyland Acrylic-Enamel Single Stage paint on my 1977 MG MGB Roadster. The other, are the dreaded piano-black gloss plastic pillars and trims on MINI's. These are the materials that shaped my understanding of paintwork correction, and inspired my fascination with the subject. They are the two softest, most finicky finishes I have ever encountered.

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Both taught me many important lessons… One, being the value of quality tools, and the need to take care of them… Pads and microfiber towels are truly the key with tricky finishes. These are the solid materials which touch the paint, and are the first things you should look at when trying to trouble-shoot marring on sensitive paints or plastics… There are areas of detailing you can afford to save money on, and others you can't. This isn't one of them… You need good towels, and good pads, and plenty of both in good condition to make sure you are working clean, and aren't reintroducing marring. It's why I buy Microfiber Madness towels, and why the advancements in pad technology have revolutionized the way I can work more than the polishes released in this past decade…

*History*​
In the past, the best results I achieved on super-soft paints and plastics with my old Meguiar's G110 V2 DA, was with Scholl Concepts S40 Anti-Hologram Compound, and Lake Country's ⅞" Crimson Hydro-Tech pads… Even so, on my MGB and on piano-black plastics, my technique had to be _exacting_… The set had to be timed perfectly, within a very narrow window to break down the polish without hitting that point where the lubricant carrier started to overload with swarf, and on the finishing leg on speed 1, I found my best results by hovering the pad over the paint - just barely contacting it - whilst braking the rotation of the pad to one rotation every second or two with my fingers, to smooth out the orbital motion of the machine. It was a pain, but I got the closest to perfection that I had ever achieved…








Somewhere between 2013-2014, Lake Country dropped the ball in the quality control of their manufacturing, and the Hydro-Tech pads stopped being cut as precisely… There was some notable runout variance in the surface of the foam, which led them to chatter on the paint, and these spikes of pressure were literally enough to reintroduce the hazing I had learned to avoid on the softest of paints and plastics. I was at a loss, and had no idea what to do… The bunching and distortion inherent with common, soft, open-cell foam finishing pads created equal spikes in surface pressure on a DA (Compared to these relatively stiff, lubricant-intensifying closed-cell pads.), which led to similar hazing.

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In a desperate attempt, I tried the Scholl Concepts NEO Honey Spider pads (At that time, I had to ship them from the UK to the US at considerable expense.), and they opened up paintwork finishing potential I hadn't even imagined possible…

*The Science of Perfection*​
Let's take a moment, and look at how the finishing process actually works… Scholl's NEO Honey Spider pads aren't magic, but they do take advantage of a piece of science and physics behind how surface refinement actually is possible…

Quality automotive polishes and compounds use aluminium-oxide crystals; often in some modified, even ceramic form… In diminishing polishes, these are bound into frangible, buckshot-like clusters that break apart over time due to friction (Thus, giving them a spectrum of cut from the start to the finish of the polishing cycle…). In non-diminishing polishes, you tend to find these in higher initial quantity, but at a finer primary scale, which allows one to control the cut of the polish through pressure more so than time. Both the size and the volumetric ratio of the crystals in the polish controls the aggression and finishing level.

However, if you were to take a handful of those raw, dry abrasive crystals, and rub them over the surface of the vehicle - no matter how fine, and sophisticated they were - they would mar, and scour the finish badly. Just as if you did so with a handful of sand…

How you can get these surprisingly coarse mineral crystals to optically finish on fine vehicle paints and plastics, is through _abrasive buffering_.

There are two types of abrasive buffering: Hydraulic, and Structural… Hydraulic is the most familiar format. Like in an engine oil, the lubricants of the polish suspend the abrasive elements in a non-compressible fluid, which isolates them, and minimizes the depth into which they can be driven into the surface… Even going so far as to introduce 'friction modifiers', which make the surface slicker, and creating a temporary sacrificial barrier, which is less susceptible to the abrasion going on.

The second type - the popular understanding of which spearheaded by Kevin Brown - is 'Structural' isolation… Controlling the concentration, pressure, and depth of penetration of the abrasives via the structure of the polishing pad itself…

If you take a group of fine abrasives and clump them together in the pocket created by the large cell of a coarse foam polishing pad, and apply enough pressure to drive them deep into the paint, you can make them act like a larger, coarser abrasive… This is how heavy-cutting pads work. By holding more abrasives per square inch or centimeter of surface area, and clustering them into denser groups, you can make 'fine' polishes cut very aggressively… Factoring in the hydraulics of their lubricant carrier, those larger pockets let the pure solid density of the abrasive volume encapsulated within overwhelm the natural tendency of the lubricant to isolate and restrict them, by giving the fluid a path of lesser resistance to escape through instead… Thus, increasing the pressure and surface area they can interact with. As a side effect, increasing the surface friction by reducing the film-build of the friction-modifying fluid on the surface, results in a lesser finish in exchange for that stronger cut…

In the past, final finishing is achieved by using very cellularly-dense (High PPI) pads, which increase the surface film-build of the lubricant, and minimize the clumping-density of the abrasives to maximize the lubricant-to-abrasive volumetric ratio… Thus inverting the pyramid that allowed those abrasives to cut aggressively. High-pore-count open-cell (100-110 ppi), or slightly lesser count closed-cell foam pads (80-90 ppi) enabled this.

*Note:* Closed-cell pads help to keep the lubricant and abrasives from being absorbed as deeply into the foam, and keep them between the pad and the surface where they belongs, which helps to maximize their cutting/finishing spectrum. The expense is durability, as closed-cell pads typically retain more heat which has no way of escaping (As it can with open-cell foam), which breaks down the foam matrix. Current polyurethane foam formulas have made closed-cell pads much more durable than they used to be, but the biggest advantage has been gained, through the way in which they are cut in order to disperse heat.

In addition to the original aluminium-oxide abrasive crystaline content of the polish or compound, as you polish the paint, swarf is generated… This comprises of shards of paint that have been ground from the surface, and act as abrasive particles themselves… Thus, as you continue to correct the paint, the volume of lubricant carrier to abrasive solid content is constantly changing for the worse; like an engine reaching its oil-change-interval… These paint particulates offer just enough abrasive potential to marr the finish, whilst contributing little or nothing positive to the speed of correction. They basically 'clog' the polish and pad, and overwhelm them. This increases surface friction and heat, and also overwhelms the lubricant carrier's ability to suspend and isolate the solids content it is carrying. Thus, causing the particles in suspension in the polish to cut deeper and in higher quantity; limiting the finishing ability of the polish in question.

So-called 'jeweling' polishes in the past, have had lubricant volumes which far outweigh their abrasive size/concentration (Scholl S40 and Menzerna SF3800, for example.), which helped to maximize their ability to provide hydraulic isolation on easily abraded [soft] paints… Combined with a high-density, small-cell pad, and this is how finishing-down on tricky paints used to be possible with some care…

Kevin Brown's technique for finishing down on uber-soft materials is a little different, as - rather than maximizing the hydraulic potential of the lubricant as is classical - he searched to increase the Structural ability of the pad to absorb and isolate both the polish and the swarf… He searches for a pad resembling the 'Perfect Paint Squeegee', which can cleanly manipulate the polish and swarf, whilst absorbing and isolating into its structure any excess present or created.

If you've ever found that a compounding pad has finished out better on a tricky paint than a finishing pad, this is why… Compounding pads have more room for the polish and swarf to go before they start interfering with the polishing process, when used with a sympathetic technique.

However, the coarse structure of these pads does tend to break through all but the strongest of lubricant films since their lower surface-contact area increases the pounds-per-square-inch of surface pressure on the edges of the foam cells themselves, which can itself induce pad-marring from the structure of the foam rubbing against the paint… On truly super-soft paints, which coarse pads otherwise offer the necessary structural buffering for, this factor renders their finishing advantage only theoretical. Furthermore, their inherent stiffness makes it hard for humans to keep them perfectly parallel to the paint at all times, without spikes in surface pressure from tilting that can lead to finish marring.

If only there was a fine-pored, soft finishing pad, which also had the structural space to give the abrasives and swarf some place to go without breaking the surface tension of the lubricant, or structuring the abrasives into large clumps… The so called 'Perfect Paint Squeegee'... One which could utilize and maximize both the principles of Hydraulic Abrasive Isolation, and Structural Abrasive Isolation… Such a pad could theoretically finish down with almost any abrasive polish...

It turns out, there is one… It's called the Scholl Concepts NEO Honey Spider Pad.

*How the Spider Pads Work *








Scholl Concepts Spider pads are constructed of very high quality - but otherwise normal - foam (Barring this and the Navy Spider pads, all are of a closed-cell variety, which maximizes the film-strength of the lubricant carrier.), which is slitted to create 'fingers' in the surface of the pad. Unlike microfiber or wool fiber threads, these do not increase the surface area of material interacting with the paint, but do create a space for the swarf to go, isolated it within the cut-structure of the pad when the fingers 'squeegee' across the paint… This keeps the polishing process much cleaner and more efficient.

These pads do not cut any differently to what their foam structures would indicate; the larger cells of the White Spider Sandwich pads do create larger, more aggressive clumps of abrasives as would be normal on a very aggressive closed-cell foam compounding pad. However, those slits let them structurally control the swarf much better; thus minimizing marring, and letting them finish extraordinarily well for their aggression.

The Scholl NEO Honey Spider pads shift that whole concept towards finishing… These are a soft, dense, 'reticulated hybrid' (Which I believe means the pad is _semi-_open cell.) pad, which help to maximize hydraulic isolation/film strength, and keep the abrasive clumps within the cells of the pad structure small… However, unlike a normal flat-faced, fine, closed-cell finishing pad, those 'fingers' in the pad squeegee the swarf deep into the slits in the foam, where it can no longer scour the finish… Increasing the absorption capabilities of the pad, without increasing its aggression, or reducing polish lubricant film strength. Thus, massively decreasing the emphasis of tremendously strong hydraulic isolation - which traditional finishing polish/pad combinations relied upon - with no negative side effect.

These pads work best on free-rotation DA's, where the motion of the machine can open up the 'fingers' of the pad surface. The effect of this surface structure is reduced on forced-rotation DA's (Which have a shorter and tighter 'twist' to their orbital motion.), and even more so on rotary machine, where they have the least - thought still some - advantage over flat pads.

*The NEO Honey Spider Pad*​
Firstly - in any format - Scholl Concepts' pads are, without a doubt, _the best quality pads _I have ever tried in terms of precision of cut, and runout. They are well balanced, and run unbelievably smoothly for their profile height, providing they are within the counterbalance-weight spectrum of the machine you are using…

The quality of the foam, glue, and backing velcro material is also without question, of the highest quality. You will not worry about these pads. They will not delaminate or shred in normal operation.

The original NEO Honey Spider Pads (As pictured) did not have a centering/cooling hole punched in the middle, but the latest ones do. On normal, 8mm-throw DA's this is of little importance (I actually don't typically like them on such machines.), but on long-throw (12-21mm orbit) or forced-rotation DA's, this is actually of some benefit.








The cut level of these pads falls between a Lake Country Hydro-Tech Crimson, and a Scholl Concepts Orange pad (Which is itself a little milder than an LC HT Tangerine pad.). They do provide a useful amount of cut to help remove marring from more aggressive compounding steps, unlike the soft open-cell foams many associate with 'finishing pads'. Due to their design, however, they are capable of maxing-out the finishing potential of polishes to a much greater extent.








Again, those used to soft open-cell foam finishing pads will find these somewhat stiffer by comparison. This makes them much more suitable for DA usage, as the foam will not distort or bunch on these machines as those soft pads can. However, they are compressible and flexible enough to contour as much or slightly more than a Buff & Shine/Chemical Guy's Hex-Logic White pad that many will be familiar with, which - combined with their height - makes them utterly sufficient to adapt to concave curves.








When paired with a fine jeweling polish like Scholl Concepts S40, the NEO Honey Spider Pads made finishing on super-soft paints/plastics _much_ more forgiving, as they widened that working-time window before the polish/pad started to overload with swarf and induce hazing. I don't have to switch to fresh pads constantly like with the flat HT Crimson's, so I need less per car. The added cut meant that S40 worked as more than a jeweling polish, and I could jump straight from cutting with microfiber into my final finish; I could drop the intermediary step. My technique didn't have to be quite as exacting to return repeatable results, and on piano-black trims especially, I was able to get a little better clarity from my final finish…

However, the really amazing thing happened with more aggressive finishing polishes like Scholl Concepts S30+, and Meguiar's #205, which I had never been able to get to finish out perfectly on either my MGB or on Piano Black plastics. There was always the faintest of hazing left, despite my best efforts… These pads finally made these polishes useable for me on the softest of finishes, and with the right techniques, opened up some really interesting possibilities and options…








If you come across a truly tricky paint that demands slurry polishing with M205 (This technique goes by many names… 'Water Polishing', 'H205', etc.), these are the best pads to actually make this challenging methodology work that I have used… This is actually how I achieved the best ever finish on my MG, as shown below. M205 is probably the most versatile finishing polish ever made, but it can be challenging to get it to finish down on the most troublesome of paints. It'll still take a bit of experimentation with technique, but these pads massively enhance its finishing potential on soft, sensitive materials.

















Another nice thing, is how easily these pads clean up… Those who use the LC Crimson HT pads, or other dense, closed-cell foam pads (B&S/CG's Hex White, LC HT Tangerine, etc.) will know that they hold onto the detergent, and take a lot of time and energy to rinse out all the cleaner/product residue properly… The Scholl NEO Honey Spider pads rinse out very easily, and hold up really well after many uses.

When not abused, these pads are durable and have lasted me a really long time, but on long-throw DA's especially (12-21mm orbits), I would not use them on high speeds. The aggressive motion of those machines are really hard on those relatively soft, flexible foam 'fingers' in the pad face, and will prematurely break down the pad. Speed 3-3.5 on most machines is plenty for the way these pads are supposed to be used… Also, I wouldn't lean into them with a lot of pressure to extract more cut from your finishing combo, as this again will strain the foam.

For the classical Zenith-Point-Method (ZPM), with Menzerna or 3M polishes, where you're trying to work them as long as possible, and warming them up gradually with speed to keep the lubricants flowing, these pads wouldn't be my choice… It's not that you couldn't use those polishes on these pads with great results (I think you could still get great results using these polishes at lower speeds with these pads.), but they will retain more heat, and won't last as long with the high speeds traditionally used.

On a tricky paint, if you're still struggling to finish down with these pads, clean them by running the face of the pad against a clean short-pile microfiber towel, and make one section pass on low speed… Thus removing the swarf buildup on the face, and letting the pad encapsulate and buffer the remaining abrasives and lubricants held in the slits of the foam… These pads can run just a little bit drier without marring than standard pads; particularly on free-rotation DA's. If that doesn't work, clean it again, and - with a water-based polish - give it a very fine spritz of water to revive the lubricants and help loosen the product in the pad, and try again… Make another slow, single section pass over a small (12X12 or less) working area with no pressure. The mindset is working clean, generating as little swarf as possible, and letting the structure of the pad buffer the particulates… You don't need to worry about thick lubricant films quite so much with this pad. It manipulates 'watery' abrasive slurries, and also 'drier' finishing polishes (As S30+, and some others are occasionally described.) very well.

*Conclusion*​
I do not use the term 'ultimate' casually, but these pads are for me, the Ultimate DA Finishing Pad. There are genuinely situations where I would struggle - or potentially even find it virtually impossible - to finish down on certain paints or plastics _without_ Scholl Concepts NEO Honey Spider Pads in my arsenal… Their quality is superb, they run smooth on the machines I've used them on, and they have cleaned up and held up well for me through many uses.

However, there is a darkside to these pads, and that is the price… The 145mm version of this pad (Suitable for a 5" backing plate), are 13-GBP _each_ after VAT, and in the US they are $13 apiece before tax… The 170mm version, for those rocking 6" backing-plate equipped machines, are 15-GBP, or 20-USD each when and where you can find them… This makes them 50-100% more expensive than other quality finishing pads you can buy in the same sizes… You're also going still going to need a stack of them, just like any other pad, to completely finish a whole vehicle. If I was tackling a vehicle the size of a Porsche 911 with crazy soft paint, I would still want at least six of these pads on hand to change them out and keep working clean and complete the job, which is a 78 GBP/USD investment just in 145mm/5.5" finishing pads alone.

Furthermore, there currently is no 90mm/3.5" or smaller NEO Honey Spider pads on offer from Scholl… They have a spot-pad made from this material, but without the slits that make it actually perform as described in this article… This is a gross oversight, which leaves you searching for other - possibly more challenging - options to try to finish down in tight areas. Hopefully someday, if enough people request them, they will sell them…

So who really needs 'The Ultimate DA Finishing Pad'? Well, if you're happy with the finish you are getting with the vehicles you are working on, and not struggling with hazing/marring on sensitive paints, you probably don't… If you're already getting flawless clarity with an LC Crimson HT, or a black open-cell finishing pad (Or whatever sort of pad you prefer.), you're not going to get much - or even any - more with these pads…

However, if you are currently working with tricky, crazy-soft, sticky, or chemically-sensitive paints, are struggling to avoid a milky finish on piano black plastic trims with your current pads and polishes, or you are planning for the future and want to know that you have the tools on hand that will help you solve those kinds of problems… Then these pads are worth _every single penny_. Polishes and other detailing chemicals are expireable and highly consumable; quality tools like microfiber towels, and polishing pads last much longer if you take care of them…

The battle for perfection can be won; even when faced with the most challenging of materials, where technique alone isn't enough... You just need to have the right tools for the job. 

Thank you for reading!

*-Steampunk-*​


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## aslettd (Nov 29, 2016)

Awesome read and a brilliant write up


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## GSVHammer (Feb 7, 2009)

Thanks for sharing Steampuk. There is a lot of useful information in your article for a novice like me. You have obviously put in a few hours in your search for perfection. It must have taken a while to put this article together, the content and the pictures, also written so I could understand it.
Really appreciated it and enjoyed reading it.


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## rlmccarty2000 (May 31, 2017)

Thank you for such a complete review. It is rare to get this in-depth type of information. I mainly work on hard paint systems, but at times I run into problems on soft B pillars. I have looked at the Scholls pads but have balked at the price, but you have convinced me to buy a few to keep around when nothing else works.


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## Brian1612 (Apr 5, 2015)

Just wow. On another level entirely, bravo sir!

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk


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## AndyA4TDI (May 7, 2012)

I really miss Steampunk, absolute legend on this forum. Brilliant read as always.


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## AndyN01 (Feb 16, 2016)

Thank you for taking the time to post this.

Fascinating, informative and a truly great help.

I've been a fan of Spider pads for some time.

Now I can understand what makes them so suitable for the results I'm looking for and so nice to use.

Absolute respect.

Andy.


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## Steampunk (Aug 11, 2011)

Thank you all for your words of support... I enjoyed the process of writing this, and am glad it is of use.  

- Steampunk


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## Sawel (Aug 5, 2016)

Excellent post - I learned with Scholl's range of pads and polishes and was always impressed with the finish the neo honey pad provided, especially with S40. This pad lasts ages too which is always a sign that it is of great quality.


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## Steampunk (Aug 11, 2011)

Sawel said:


> Excellent post - I learned with Scholl's range of pads and polishes and was always impressed with the finish the neo honey pad provided, especially with S40. This pad lasts ages too which is always a sign that it is of great quality.


I was playing around with S40 on the NEO Honey again very recently when I shot the 8th photo in this writeup, with the 250ml bottle of S40 next to the Spider pad... The reflection in the paint in that image is from this pad and polish. What an awesome combo. :thumb:

- Steampunk


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## AudiPhil (Aug 11, 2018)

Thanks for such an in depth review. That made for some good reading. A lot of it well over my head but I'm grateful to you for sharing your knowledge.

Great photography as well!


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## Sawel (Aug 5, 2016)

Steampunk said:


> I was playing around with S40 on the NEO Honey again very recently when I shot the 8th photo in this writeup, with the 250ml bottle of S40 next to the Spider pad... The reflection in the paint in that image is from this pad and polish. What an awesome combo. :thumb:
> 
> - Steampunk


It's a shame the Scholl range isn't more popular over in the US - I used to read through some of the forums and those who tried it seemed pretty impressed with it but suppliers over there seem to have dropped Scholl's stuff pretty quickly?


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## Steampunk (Aug 11, 2011)

Sawel said:


> It's a shame the Scholl range isn't more popular over in the US - I used to read through some of the forums and those who tried it seemed pretty impressed with it but suppliers over there seem to have dropped Scholl's stuff pretty quickly?


Alas, this is true...  CarPro US is the only major stockist in the US that I'm aware of... They are very nice to deal with and stock a useful amount of the range, fortunately, but it is kind of interesting that more aren't using Scholl in the US... When they do, it's typically S3+ XXL, S20 Black, White Spider pads (Very rarely), etc... The rest of the range kind of flies under the radar, here.

- Steampunk


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## rdavies.us (Jul 3, 2013)

Thanks for the write up. Fascinating information.


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## lowejackson (Feb 23, 2006)

Very informative review Steampunk. Written and presented with great eloquence. Not sure what you do for a living but if it is not writing then change careers.


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## Steampunk (Aug 11, 2011)

lowejackson said:


> Very informative review Steampunk. Written and presented with great eloquence. Not sure what you do for a living but if it is not writing then change careers.


I am glad that my review was of use, and thank you for letting me know not to quit my day-job... 

- Steampunk


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## Socal Brian (Dec 4, 2011)

Thank you Sam for such great content in your reviews and you always make it such an enjoyable read. You sure can write!:thumb:

Brian


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## jimmux (Sep 9, 2006)

Fantastic write-up! A right good read and so interesting. Thanks for sharing your knowledge, it is much appreciated. I am new to machine polishing and am delighted to discover, only after reading your article, that when I bought my machine within the last two weeks, it came with four of these Scholl pads. The black one is a foam finisher but the other three are the blue, purple and orange spider pads like you describe. Out of interest, I paid £230 for the lot. The Vertool machine on its own was £180 and for the extra £50 came the four pads and the S20 compound. I am converted now and having fun getting good results on a black sapphire BMW. Thanks again. Jim . . .


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## bigalc (Aug 7, 2014)

Superb write up.....now tempted to try these pads with S40


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## minotaur uk (Dec 13, 2018)

great write up.....really appreciate your insights


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## NRDetailing (Jul 9, 2018)

excellent write up and amazing flow on your style of writing! thank you very much !! as i was reading your post , it came to my mind another -out of the norm- super duper post from Albert Low https://www.facebook.com/groups/AutogeekDetailing101/permalink/1438076856327581/


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