# ToughCoat gone wrong - zero beading



## EspenL (Feb 7, 2012)

*ToughCoat gone wrong - zero beading [solved]*

I invested in some AF ToughCoat recently, planning to use it as a single LSP after a thorough paint correction & polish later this summer. But since you really need very little to cover a car I did a quick trial application a few weeks ago to see what it's like. Just one coat, mind you, but I'm sure I covered 99% of the car and took extra care on the bonnet.

A few days later it rained and the beading was nothing to write home about. Huge, flat drops all over, no better than a clean untreated surface.

Now, I've had the first wash since then and the results were even worse. Water was practically defying gravity:

















I think paint would dry quicker than those sheets of water would run off the bonnet 

I've seen enough beading and sheeting pics and videos of ToughCoat to know for sure it _should_ be way better than this and I followed the instructions. So what's gone wrong?

My theories:
- Surface was just not clean enough?
-- Even though it was covered in Prickbort and Surfex 1:5, washed with warm water, Nanolex Reactivating Shampoo and MG MF mitt and dried. No IronX or claying tho'.

- My El Cheapo application pad somehow messed things up?
-- But I could easily see the stuff actually go onto the paint and not just get sucked into the pad.

- Too soon/late buffing off?
-- Covered the whole car in maybe 15 minutes, so the first panels got 10-15 minutes of cure time before being buffed off with a good MF buffing cloth, the last panels got maybe 5 minutes.

- Wrong conditions?
-- It was dry, 8-10 degrees C, and not really any direct sun to speak of. Panels were certainly not hot in any way.

Suggestions, anyone?


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## alan_mcc (Oct 28, 2008)

In the above pictures, has it actually been hand washed?


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## ABC Detailing (Jun 29, 2010)

Did you apply similarly to this?

As Alan said, it doesn't look clean in the first picture!


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## EspenL (Feb 7, 2012)

No hand wash there, no. Those pictures were taken after Surfex 1:25 and high pressure rinse, but the car and especially the bonnet was only dusty. The gray-ish areas in between the water is actually mist (the hose really makes a lot of it :\) and some reflection from the white roof, the lines going down the bonnet is reflection from the roof as well 

Application pretty much like the video, yes. Although I did it in small overlapping circles and didn't feel as effortless as it looked in the video. I blame that on the cheap pad.


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## AaronGTi (Nov 2, 2010)

Did you apply TC over a base of Tripple or Rejuvenate? Or did you apply it straight to the car without anything under it?
This is the 2nd time I've seen someone post up problems with TC and it confuses me like mad because I got like 6 months+ from 2 layers of TC on top of a Tripple base.


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## ABC Detailing (Jun 29, 2010)

There's your problem pal, if TC is recommended AFTER wash, dry, polish/glaze and IPA wipe down, it won't work from rinsing with a hose.


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## AaronGTi (Nov 2, 2010)

chapppers11 said:


> There's your problem pal, if TC is recommended AFTER wash, dry, polish/glaze and IPA wipe down, it won't work from rinsing with a hose.


TC does not require an IPA wipedown.
TC has no bonding issues to polishing oils or anything hence why it sits on top of Tripple very well.

Also, the pics above I think is a couple weeks after he applied the TC not straight after


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## sirkuk (Mar 5, 2012)

Where did you purchase it from and did you give it a good shake first?
Maybe James from AF has some sort of idea what's gone wrong?

Sent from my GT-I9000 using Tapatalk


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## EspenL (Feb 7, 2012)

AaronGTi said:


> Did you apply TC over a base of Tripple or Rejuvenate? Or did you apply it straight to the car without anything under it?
> This is the 2nd time I've seen someone post up problems with TC and it confuses me like mad because I got like 6 months+ from 2 layers of TC on top of a Tripple base.


No Tripple or Rejuvinate. This was just a preliminary test on a clean car, but not exactly glass smooth.



chapppers11 said:


> There's your problem pal, if TC is recommended AFTER wash, dry, polish/glaze and IPA wipe down, it won't work from rinsing with a hose.


So, if I understand you correctly, I won't be seeing proper beading until it's applied after polishing? That's cool, I suppose, but don't get me wrong: it wasn't applied after just a rinse, it was a proper hand wash, but the photos are after just surfex & rinse two weeks after TC went on. We've had good weather for once, so it was only dusty and turned out pretty damn clean after blow drying.


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## EspenL (Feb 7, 2012)

AaronGTi said:


> TC does not require an IPA wipedown.
> TC has no bonding issues to polishing oils or anything hence why it sits on top of Tripple very well.
> 
> Also, the pics above I think is a couple weeks after he applied the TC not straight after


Correct! 



sirkuk said:


> Where did you purchase it from and did you give it a good shake first?
> Maybe James from AF has some sort of idea what's gone wrong?


Shinearama. It had separated after sitting a while so I gave it a good shake, yes.


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## Alan W (May 11, 2006)

EspenL said:


> -- Even though it was covered in Prickbort and Surfex 1:5, washed with warm water, Nanolex Reactivating Shampoo and MG MF mitt and dried. No IronX or claying tho'.


I'm would suggest the Nanolex Reactivating Shampoo used has left something behind that the Tough Coat didn't like. 

Alan W


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## AaronGTi (Nov 2, 2010)

hmm I think it could have something to do with TC bonds better to a base layer of Tripple or Rejuvenate rather than just paint. I'm sure James will be along soon to clarify. This is the 2nd time I've seen this and both times TC has been applied directly to paint and nothing else. Just my 2p of course I could be completely wrong


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## bigslippy (Sep 19, 2010)

AaronGTi said:


> hmm I think it could have something to do with TC bonds better to a base layer of Tripple or Rejuvenate rather than just paint. I'm sure James will be along soon to clarify. This is the 2nd time I've seen this and both times TC has been applied directly to paint and nothing else. Just my 2p of course I could be completely wrong


I hear ya , however I layered a coat on my dads car just to see how it would cope.Washed the car with AF lather and dried with plush drying towel then applied one coat using a foam pad.... car looked great and beaded for more than 3 months :doublesho


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## Alan W (May 11, 2006)

Aaron,

Tough Coat bonds to bare paint just as well as Tripple or Rejuvenate and doesn't need anything underneath it to assist bonding. 

I'm sure James will confirm this.

Alan W

EDIT: Perhaps a Mod could move this Thread to the Auto Finesse section.


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## AaronGTi (Nov 2, 2010)

Alan W said:


> Aaron,
> 
> Tough Coat bonds to bare paint just as well as Tripple or Rejuvenate and doesn't need anything underneath it to assist bonding.
> 
> ...


Oh well it was just a suggestion as I've seen it happen before.. see here:

http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=263089


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## EspenL (Feb 7, 2012)

Alan W said:


> I'm would suggest the Nanolex Reactivating Shampoo used has left something behind that the Tough Coat didn't like.
> 
> Alan W


Oooh, maybe. This is hereby officially added to my List of Theories® :thumb:
Might try washing it again with something else and reapplying TC this weekend.


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## alan_mcc (Oct 28, 2008)

I would've given it an actual contact wash to be honest.


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## Sneak Attack (Mar 1, 2012)

Alan W said:


> I'm would suggest the Nanolex Reactivating Shampoo used has left something behind that the Tough Coat didn't like.
> 
> Alan W


Exactly.

Nanolex Reactivating Shampoo is part shampoo, part sealant and does leave a sealant layer behind; I suspect this has affected the Tough Coat bonding and hence beading.

Try a conventional shampoo then apply TC, then revert to Nanolex Shampoo


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## Trip tdi (Sep 3, 2008)

This Tough coat, do you need to prep the surface with their tripple or there cleaner before hand, then place tough coat on top.

Sorry I can't understand a sealant giving 6 months worth of protection, i'm sure it's needs a little top up on the paint from time to time, to activate the sealant again, so it's performing stronger as day one; don't think one or two coats will survive 6 months straight with out using the product again, in the 6 months time scale.

Correct me if I am wrong here ?


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## bigslippy (Sep 19, 2010)

Trip tdi said:


> This Tough coat, do you need to prep the surface with their tripple or there cleaner before hand, then place tough coat on top.
> 
> Sorry I can't understand a sealant giving 6 months worth of protection, i'm sure it's needs a little top up on the paint from time to time, to activate the sealant again, so it's performing stronger as day one; don't think one or two coats will survive 6 months straight with out using the product again, in the 6 months time scale.
> 
> Correct me if I am wrong here ?


I put 3 layers of TC on about September last year and since then I haven't done anything other than wash with Lather and used Glisten twice . You can still feel and see the protection is very much there:thumb:


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## Sneak Attack (Mar 1, 2012)

Trip tdi said:


> This Tough coat, do you need to prep the surface with their tripple or there cleaner before hand, then place tough coat on top.
> 
> Sorry I can't understand a sealant giving 6 months worth of protection, i'm sure it's needs a little top up on the paint from time to time, to activate the sealant again, so it's performing stronger as day one; don't think one or two coats will survive 6 months straight with out using the product again, in the 6 months time scale.
> 
> Correct me if I am wrong here ?


Went on bare paint on my jeep and gave 6months, only being washed every so often with Lather (never QD'd). That was a single coat.

On the new jeep I used a base of Werkstat Prime (to enhance the metallic flake) and it's going fine in month 4 now.

Can't see why you'd think it wouldn't last 6 months to be honest?


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## Alan W (May 11, 2006)

Trip tdi said:


> This Tough coat, do you need to prep the surface with their tripple or there cleaner before hand, then place tough coat on top.
> 
> Correct me if I am wrong here ?


Further to the answer John has given above you don't *need* to use Tripple or Rejuvenate under Tough Coat. However, you are best to polish any surface before sealing it with an LSP and, with Auto Finesse's products all being compatible with each other, Tough Coat will bond to Tripple or Rejuvenate.

Alan W


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## Trip tdi (Sep 3, 2008)

Ok, I take your word for it on here, any protection is better than none, thanks for tips on here :thumb:


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## ABC Detailing (Jun 29, 2010)

AaronGTi said:


> TC does not require an IPA wipedown.
> TC has no bonding issues to polishing oils or anything hence why it sits on top of Tripple very well.
> 
> Also, the pics above I think is a couple weeks after he applied the TC not straight after


I just meant generally and it should of read "polish/glaze/IPA wipe down" if it suggested that on the bottle, haven't used it personally


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## Mad Ad (Feb 7, 2011)

It may have had a reaction to the shampoo used, with Tough Coat you are best off using a shampoo that cleans the dirt and grime and doesn't contain any wax or protection that would potentially interfere with Tough Coat.


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## Derekh929 (Aug 28, 2011)

How does TC react to applying in low Temp as i see the members location is Bergen and very cold place been there lots when engineer on fishing vessels, beautiful but cold


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## Grizzle (Jul 12, 2006)

So its user error (again) and not the product....

Could see that coming!!


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## Mad Ad (Feb 7, 2011)

Derekh929 said:


> How does TC react to applying in low Temp as i see the members location is Bergen and very cold place been there lots when engineer on fishing vessels, beautiful but cold


I have applied TC at low temp and not had an issue with the cold just had to leave it a little longer to cure.

He added that is was applied at 8-10 degress C


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## Sneak Attack (Mar 1, 2012)

Derekh929 said:


> How does TC react to applying in low Temp as i see the members location is Bergen and very cold place been there lots when engineer on fishing vessels, beautiful but cold





Mad Ad said:


> I have applied TC at low temp and not had an issue with the cold just had to leave it a little longer to cure.


Went on my jeep in October (ish) in Aberdeenshire with no problems; inside but no heater. I apply to the whole car via an MF pad then buff it off. Working outside, I'd do panel at a time for risk of dust.


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## alxg (May 3, 2009)

EspenL said:


> No hand wash there, no. Those pictures were taken *after Surfex 1:25 and high pressure rinse*


I think this is your problem right here, surely the Surfex will alter/remove the TC?


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## EspenL (Feb 7, 2012)

Grizzle said:


> So its user error (again) and not the product....
> 
> Could see that coming!!


That's productive...
As I stated in the first post, I have every faith in the product.



alxg said:


> I think this is your problem right here, surely the Surfex will alter/remove the TC?


At 1:5 it would but at 1:25 too? But even so the beading in rainy weather was crap long before the layer of TC had seen any Surfex or anything else.


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## Grizzle (Jul 12, 2006)

EspenL said:


> *That's productive...*
> As I stated in the first post, I have every faith in the product.


Thanks i thought that too :thumb:


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## bigslippy (Sep 19, 2010)

Ben Gum said:


> In fairness it is as much down to TC being picky as it is user error...


TC is picky ?, enlighten me please to problems you have encountered:thumb:


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## Auto Finesse (Jan 10, 2007)

Sorry iv seemed to miss this thread when it was first posted up today and its gone along a bit since, honestly Tough coat is an easy to use and get along with product (try following my advise a bit further down this post and don't give up on it yet  )

I think the problem lies with either of the following two stages

A being the shampoo used in the stage immediately prior application, im not 100% sure of the coating said shampoo leaves behind, but it will create some bonding issues, whilst Tough coat is fairly happy and not overly fussy with what it will sit on, the types of coating left behind with "wash n wax" "top up" "maintenance" or "reactive" shampoos is one of the worst to try to get any form of LSP to "stick" or bond to.

B: the use of a degreaser on the wash stage after application, usually you would only use such product to strip the surface bare of any previous LSPs or coatings, its not a needed stage on a protected surface, and could well have stripped the Tough coat off.

Another stage that could have / would have effected the coatings performance is the lack of prep prior to application, id at least recommend using our Tripple or Rejuvenate (or even another MFRs equivalent of) before laying a coat of protection down, LSPs are intended to protect the finish, not really create the finish, you prep and polish the surface first then lock in and protect that work with your wax or sealant. Ideally on a car thats not been detailed before id personally recommend at least Claying and using a pre wax cleanser or AIO polish prior to the application of Tough Coat to get the best from it.

I hope that by following the advise given by my self and others (who i might add done a great job of helping get to the bottom of what could be causing the problem) you have better success with Tough Coat the next time you apply it. Hand on heart it really is a good product and one that lasts, we all use it on our own daily drivers here :thumb:

And if ever you need any advise on the best use of any of our products all you need do is, post the question in our section here on DW, email our support team [email protected] or you can call us on 08446 93 13 93

Regards

James


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## Sneak Attack (Mar 1, 2012)

Ben Gum said:


> In fairness it is as much down to TC being picky as it is user error...


Christ is there actually a product on the market you don't moan about?

If you know it all, as you seem to by your constant negative tone towards all and sundry, why don't you make your own range of products?


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## Auto Finesse (Jan 10, 2007)

Ben Gum said:


> Because I have a job already thanks
> 
> I was just defending the other poster who was being blamed for bad application when it seems to be that he wasn't that far off the mark but most likely just got unlucky with the TC and shampoo residue being somehow incompatible.


Don't mean to sound rude and please don't take this the wrong way, but the prep work prior to application was far from ideal, in my opinion of course.

Another factor overlooked was the possibility of prior wax or sealant still present on the surface, not enough was done to ensure a decent surface to apply the sealant to. Tough Coat is far from picky, in fact it has to be the least picky sealants compared to some otheres.


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## Ric (Feb 4, 2007)

All he did was ask for suggestions, now everybody is flaming him, what a friendly place.


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## Hoppo32 (Nov 18, 2008)

carbonangel said:


> All he did was ask for suggestions, now everybody is flaming him, what a friendly place.


Always the same when someone is mildly negative about any of the flavour of the month products, imo it's one of the very few downsides of DW.


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## alxg (May 3, 2009)

Wasn't intending to come across as negative with my post, just nobody had pointed out that OP used Surfex with his wash??


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## EspenL (Feb 7, 2012)

Righty-o, people. Good news from the front! I've been out and bought myself the only soap without wax I could find - Meguiar's NXT something or other - and did another wash. First of, Surfex 1:5 and some Prickbort for good measure to get rid of any existing TC or wax, followed by HP rinse, handwash with MG NXT and MG mitt, HP rinse. And just to be on the safe side; some IronX and yet another Surfex 1:5 and rinse on the bonnet, just in case the soap had any sealant in it. After a quick drying I applied two coats of TC, with 5 mins of cure time and buffed off after each layer.

And hey presto:


























Can't really complain about that beading. Especially considering this was the "road spray test" (sprayed it with a fine mist of water, often tricky to get proper beads from that) and the prepwork wasn't really perfect this time either (no claying, unpolished surface). It quicky ran off by the slightest wind or movement of the car as well, as seen somewhat in the last pic.

So, problem solved. I think it's safe to say it was the layer of wax or sealant left by the shampoo who caused it. Thanks for all the input James and almost everyone else D), and we didn't even start WW3.

:thumb:


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## bigslippy (Sep 19, 2010)

That's more like it it's a great product to use and I've used it in various conditions weather wise and never had any problems with it , glad you are now geting the benefit of it buddy:thumb:


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## EspenL (Feb 7, 2012)

alxg said:


> Wasn't intending to come across as negative with my post, just nobody had pointed out that OP used Surfex with his wash??


Initially I had several days of rain with crap beading long before the TC saw any Surfex. It was only on that last wash I used Surfex with 1:25ish dilution, which I've used on waxed and sealed cars several times before without it killing the LSP. Obviously, every wash will wear down the LSP, as will every rain drop to some extend, but I would much rather re-apply the LSP every couple of months than grind away with my wash mitt on a dirty surface.


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## Auto Finesse (Jan 10, 2007)

Im glad following the advise given you have managed to get the desired results from our product :thumb:

Be sure to report back with durability etc


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