# Laying a patio



## lick0the0fish

Hi all

I love this forum to be able to ask questions about anything and everything and there always seems to be a knowledgeable soul to help...

So I am laying a patio and I just want to clarify I'm going to do it right - eventually it will have a hot tub on it and so it needs to be solid and not move.

Currently there is a base layer made up of hardcore, old sand/cement mix from old patio (dry laid by builders) and cotswold chippings. This is going to be compacted with a wacker plate until it is nice and level and firm.

Once I've done this I'm going to use a cement mixer to make up a 1:10 mortar mix and lay that down about 50mm thick and then lay the paving slabs on top. The slabs are 60x60 square slabs. I'll leave a 5/7mm gap between the slabs to point in. Any cuts I need to make (the shape is like a rectangle with a right angle triangle on the side) will be done with an angle grinder.

Does that sound right? I've searched the internet and there's so many different views on how to do it! I don't want to lay the slabs on a dry mix as I find this difficult to get them level and I want them to stay there forever!

Any further advice would be appreicated


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## robertdon777

Sounds good to me, I'd always lay them wet rather than dry. Some people choose dry for speed I guess, but if you are in no rush I'd stick to the method you are doing.

Although the hot tub is heavy the weight is spread over a fair distance so you shouldn't have any issues. If you are going onto a raised deck that's a different story.


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## lick0the0fish

robertdon777 said:


> Sounds good to me, I'd always lay them wet rather than dry. Some people choose dry for speed I guess, but if you are in no rush I'd stick to the method you are doing.
> 
> Although the hot tub is heavy the weight is spread over a fair distance so you shouldn't have any issues. If you are going onto a raised deck that's a different story.


Thanks. Yes I know laying dry is quicker but its nigh on impossible to get them properly level and uniform.

We thought about decking but in order to get it strong enough the cost would be so much more than for the equivalent patio and I can always build a deck around the tub (leaving access panels for maintenance).

I'm not in a rush, planning on laying it this week. I've added some pics below of what I've done so far, the weed fabric I'm taking up as I wont need it as I'm mortaring and I can use it elsewhere. This garden was just mud when we moved in nearly a year ago save for the tiny patio at the top (which was laid dry by the builders) which I am re-laying along with this lower level one.


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## Jack R

From my experience I would definitely lay a dry mix but I would do a slightly stronger mix with the weight that will be it on it, also leave it to set properly which will take a month to get to its full strength before filling it up with water.


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## lick0the0fish

So you would lay it dry? Can I ask what the thinking is behind a wet vs dry mix?


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## Jack R

With it being dry it's less likely to move, it's completely solid under it and you can walk on it. Although I always tried to avoid doing this for a couple of days. The only advantage that I can see for a wet mix is it's more diy friendly as it's easier to get right.


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## lick0the0fish

JR1982 said:


> With it being dry it's less likely to move, it's completely solid under it and you can walk on it. Although I always tried to avoid doing this for a couple of days. The only advantage that I can see for a wet mix is it's more diy friendly as it's easier to get right.


Interesting. The majority of forum posts and guides online have suggested a wet mix as opposed to dry as it creates a stronger bond and (crucially) is far more resistant to weed growth


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## Jack R

lick0the0fish said:


> Interesting. The majority of forum posts and guides online have suggested a wet mix as opposed to dry as it creates a stronger bond and (crucially) is far more resistant to weed growth


How many of that majority do it/or have done it for a living and had to place a warranty on there work? Of all the patios I've layed and drives for that matter when a lot of weight is going over or being sat on top of it's always been and has only been a dry mix :thumb:


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## lick0the0fish

JR1982 said:


> How many of that majority do it/or have done it for a living and had to place a warranty on there work? Of all the patios I've layed and drives for that matter when a lot of weight is going over or being sat on top of it's always been and has only been a dry mix :thumb:


Don't get me wrong I want to do it right and ensure it will last and weeds won't grow through. I'm just looking for best advice and younsound like you know what you're talking about. How thick a Base of sand/cement and what ratio would you use?


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## Jack R

I would be laying it on about 2 to 3 inches of sand/cement mixed in a cement mixer at 4:1 I'm assuming your going to use sharpe sand? Don't worry about the weeds as they will grow any way regardless, and that's what weed killer was made for. Get your self a couple of steel poles to use as guide and a piece of 4x2 timber to help with levelling and make sure youve got no voids. Admittedly it is more time consuming than laying it wet but it will last longer and take the weight without sinking.


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## lick0the0fish

JR1982 said:


> I would be laying it on about 2 to 3 inches of sand/cement mixed in a cement mixer at 4:1 I'm assuming your going to use sharpe sand? Don't worry about the weeds as they will grow any way regardless, and that's what weed killer was made for. Get your self a couple of steel poles to use as guide and a piece of 4x2 timber to help with levelling and make sure youve got no voids. Admittedly it is more time consuming than laying it wet but it will last longer and take the weight without sinking.


4:1 bugger I'm going to need more cement (have ordered enough for 10:1 and yes I have ordered sharp sand.

I will be using a mixer yeah.

Would you leave a gap between the flags and grout them in with mortar after they've all been laid?


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## Jack R

Yes you'll need a gap, I'll get you some photos tomorrow and a few other things to think about plus the possibility of another way of grouting depending on the look you want


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## lick0the0fish

JR1982 said:


> Yes you'll need a gap, I'll get you some photos tomorrow and a few other things to think about plus the possibility of another way of grouting depending on the look you want


Oh that would be ace thank you!

The slabs are 60x60 square pendle buff sand coloured. I guess a dark grout would look good if that's possible to do

Look forward to what you have to say about it 😀


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## Gav147

JR1982 said:


> Admittedly it is more time consuming than laying it wet but *it will last longer and take the weight without sinking.*


Would you care to explain why? I would love to know why you think a dry mix is stronger?


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## krissyn

I tend to use the 'paving expert' . com for this sort of thing. He goes into immense detail about everything paving related and discusses the relevant merits of dry/wet and mix ratios etc. He also takes a pragmatic view for diy stuff as well.


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## robertdon777

All block paved drives I've ever seen have moved and sunk to some degree... All laid dry. This is why I would never lay dry but that's just me and I'm only a DIYer


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## Jack R

Gav147 said:


> Would you care to explain why? I would love to know why you think a dry mix is stronger?


Because it tends to be laid as solid bed with the slabs then placed on top where as laying wet it's usually five blobs of muc then you push down into the bed to level which then leaves voids etc.. also the weight is spread more evenly as well due to it being a solid base instead of small pads and its makes it stronger as the cement sets naturally over time


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## Jack R

robertdon777 said:


> All block paved drives I've ever seen have moved and sunk to some degree... All laid dry. This is why I would never lay dry but that's just me and I'm only a DIYer


It's only sunk because the sub base has failed due to not being prepared properly, it's one of the reasons I've stopped because I couldn't compete with the bloke down the road who could do it in half the time and price due to it being done incorrectly. I've got drives that where layed 15years ago that haven't moved any where and there neighbors had there's done twice, once by the Cowboys and once by me.

No different to just waxing a car without cleaning it first always going to look rubbish if it's not prepared right


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## robertdon777

JR1982 said:


> It's only sunk because the sub base has failed due to not being prepared properly, it's one of the reasons I've stopped because I couldn't compete with the bloke down the road who could do it in half the time and price due to it being done incorrectly. I've got drives that where layed 15years ago that haven't moved any where and there neighbors had there's done twice, once by the Cowboys and once by me.
> 
> No different to just waxing a car without cleaning it first always going to look rubbish if it's not prepared right


I've just never seen one that hasn't moved, from a basic job to a high end one, every one I look at has moved, maybe I'm too picky with what I'm looking.

Asking a DIY'er to lay a perfect Dry Mix just seems too hard for my liking, as you say if you can do a good job but other pros (ie someone being paid to do it) struggle I'd not recommend a novice to do it.

Wet FTW. The weight is so well spread it will be fine, its not like a car wheel driving over it with 1 small footprint as a contact patch.

In theory if you had a level base you could dump it straight onto gravel and not worry about the slabs. Have a read about gravel bases here:

http://www.whatsthebest-hottub.com/forum/index.php?topic=6420.0


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## 11alan111

a dry mix will move when the ants start nesting where as a wet mix will stop them.


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## lick0the0fish

Thanks for all your replies it's been really helpful. In terms of weed control fabric, would you bother or just lay the Base (wet or dry) over the compacted sub Base?


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## robertdon777

Don't bother with weed control, just place it around the edge and border parts. Weed killer for the ones that get past that. Or a nice acidic wheel cleaner kills them in hours rather than the off the shelf killers which take about 2 days.


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## Darlofan

robertdon777 said:


> Don't bother with weed control, just place it around the edge and border parts. Weed killer for the ones that get past that. Or a nice acidic wheel cleaner kills them in hours rather than the off the shelf killers which take about 2 days.


Ha ha, not just me then. I find tardis gets rid of them.


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## Gav147

JR1982 said:


> Because it tends to be laid as solid bed with the slabs then placed on top where as laying wet it's usually five blobs of muc then you push down into the bed to level which then leaves voids etc.. also the weight is spread more evenly as well due to it being a solid base instead of small pads and its makes it stronger as the cement sets naturally over time


They should be laid on a full bed/screed of wet mix, not dot and dabbed. It is stronger than a dry mix. Concrete, mortar, render or anything cement based needs the correct amount of water to achieve it's full and consistent strength.

Block paving is completely different, it is laid purely on sand, no cement is used.


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## Jack R

Gav147 said:


> They should be laid on a full bed/screed of wet mix, not dot and dabbed. It is stronger than a dry mix. Concrete, mortar, render or anything cement based needs the correct amount of water to achieve it's full and consistent strength.
> 
> Block paving is completely different, it is laid purely on sand, no cement is used.


Just to make sure we're on the same page the dry mix is wet due to the moisture in the sand, i also know the difference between this and block paving.
Just out of interest how long have you been in the building trade for now?


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## Gav147

getting on 25 years why?

There is moisture in sand yes, but it is not consistent is it and there will not be enough residual moisture in it to achieve it's full strength.

The block paving comment wasn't aimed at you it was to clear up to the other person who seemed to think they where laid on a dry mix.


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## Jack R

Gav147 said:


> getting on 25 years why?
> 
> There is moisture in sand yes, but it is not consistent is it and there will not be enough residual moisture in it to achieve it's full strength.
> 
> The block paving comment wasn't aimed at you it was to clear up to the other person who seemed to think they where laid on a dry mix.


Just wondered that was all as judging by your answers and questions I'd guessed that you where in the trade, where abouts are you based?

As for residual moisture depending on the time of year and weather it's would get wetted up before starting the job therefore it would then be consistent throughout the mixing process. As for the block paving I was just making sure


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## Gav147

I'm in Yorkshire



JR1982 said:


> As for residual moisture depending on the time of year and weather


Exactly what I was trying to explain. Dry mix it is pure luck as to how much water is in the sand due to seasons/weather and as such it is guess work as to how it sets.


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## Jack R

Gav147 said:


> I'm in Yorkshire
> 
> Exactly what I was trying to explain. Dry mix it is pure luck as to how much water is in the sand due to seasons/weather and as such it is guess work as to how it sets.


But when your mixing it (in a cement mixer) you can visually see how wet/dry it is and match it with each batch. I think this might be another regional debate between north and south, even though I'm technically in the middle:lol::thumb:


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## LeadFarmer

I'd like to lay my new patio on solid wet base, but I'm sure this would require lots more sand/cement, much more mixing and would be more difficult to correct if I made a mistake when laying.


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## RedUntilDead

just to add to the two lads posting who know their onions
I will be laying my granite paving on a slightly more wetter than dry mix!
Take a handful of mix out of the mixer and it should form a ball nicely. I make it a bit wetter than that as it gives me more workability:thumb:

OP check out some of the brush in grouts for pointings or search flowable grout.
2 part poly ones are great but expensive. Azpects do a ready mixed which gets good reviews from landscapers. The stuff sold at the diy chains doesnt get good reviews


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## lick0the0fish

Thanks for all the advice, I went with a 7:1 "moist" mix in the end as it was the easiest way to get a bit of workability and provide enough stability to build up the level I needed. As per below pics. I will look into different ways of grouting...

I'm fairly happy with it, there will be gravel surrounding it and I have poked drainage holes into the surround to aid with drainage (down to the hardcore below)


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## krissyn

Looking good


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## Jack R

Looking good mate, if you want an easy option of grouting try sika available in grey or buff just brush in and wash it over with the hose and it's finished.


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## lick0the0fish

LeadFarmer said:


> I'd like to lay my new patio on solid wet base, but I'm sure this would require lots more sand/cement, much more mixing and would be more difficult to correct if I made a mistake when laying.


I would say (having done it both ways and being a complete DIYer myself) that laying it moist was the easiest way. Not as wet as brick mortar but still quite pliable. It had enough strength that I could build up a good layer but also was easy enough to get the slabs level quite easily.

Definitely recommend it. As I said above I used a 7:1 sharp sand : cement mix in a cement mixer.


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## lick0the0fish

As the car has taken a bit of a back burner, I've been doing a lot of work on the garden. This is easily the biggest project I've ever tried and I'm really happy with how its coming along.

Patio finished and part pointed with mortar mix (sharp sand / cement 7:1 mix) I will brush out the loose bits and then put a proper grout over the top.



















Behind the garage I am creating a raised patio area with a fire pit in the centre. All measured out it is 4 & 1/2 slabs (2700mm ish to include gaps) so the area will look like this (Microsoft Paint Expert - any technical drawings needed, feel free to PM me :lol










And this is what it looks like at the moment...










A fair amount of soil to flatten but I need to build retaining walls around and then spread it out to see how much I need to lose (over the back fence - school in construction so no worries there ;-) )

There will be a lower level single slab line of patio flush with the edge of the garage and running across to the back fence, then dug into the grass adjoining the patio will be a wildlife pond with a "beach" in the furthest corner near the flowerbeds to allow animals to get in and out. I'll be making some rock/log gardens for any little critters to find a home (I love wildlife and the idea is that we can sit on the raised area and watch the wildlife that inhabit the pond - no fish). But that's to come...

Anyway thanks for reading I'll keep this post updated basically for me to remember what I did... Oh, and here's the garden when we moved in!


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## Darlofan

That's looking really good. We'll done for giving it a go. I love doing things like this myself, saves money but the satisfaction of looking at jobs after and knowing you did it is better.


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## lick0the0fish

Definitely. The only thing I haven't done myself was lay the turf but I really wish I had because they a: didn't check the quality of the topsoil (non existent) and b: rushed the job so there are gaps. Now I'm going to have to spend the winter scarifying and re seeding and trying to bring it to life. At least it was cheap at £5 a sq m including supply and lay.

Cheers for the positive comments I'm looking forward to getting it ready for use next summer

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## Darlofan

lick0the0fish said:


> Definitely. The only thing I haven't done myself was lay the turf but I really wish I had because they a: didn't check the quality of the topsoil (non existent) and b: rushed the job so there are gaps. Now I'm going to have to spend the winter scarifying and re seeding and trying to bring it to life. At least it was cheap at £5 a sq m including supply and lay.
> 
> Cheers for the positive comments I'm looking forward to getting it ready for use next summer
> 
> Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk


That's the other thing about doing it yourself. Generally you know it's done properly and if not you know why and how to remedy it. Bugs me having to get people in to do a job and then looking and thinking I could have done better.


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## Maxtor

Great job mate! :thumb:


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## lick0the0fish

Darlofan said:


> That's the other thing about doing it yourself. Generally you know it's done properly and if not you know why and how to remedy it. Bugs me having to get people in to do a job and then looking and thinking I could have done better.


I just jetted it off and it looks so much better now it's clean. Still needs to be grouted and for this I'm going with this

http://m.toppstiles.co.uk/tprod47084/azpects-easy-joint-jet-black.html

Should do the job and prevent all the little bits of stone flicking out of the joints.

If it had been done by a "professional" then it may well have been completely level (it's not entirely level ;-) ) but I think it adds character and it would have cost me an arm and a leg in labour, not to mention the satisfaction I get when I look out and think "I did that".

Will post more updates as I continue with the project. Retaining walls and raised patio next... eek

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