# Menzerna 203S has this replaced PO106FF?



## Breezy (Jun 24, 2006)

Does the new Menzerna 203S finish down just as well as PO106FF now?

but with a bit more cut...


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## Sim (Feb 18, 2008)

Yup, many places have dropped PO106FF in preference of 203s



WX51 TXR said:


> It's not easy to properly classify this superb product, as it has the cut level of a light compound but finishes down almost as well as the best finishing polishes (as good as 106FA, maybe not quite as sharp as 85RD).


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## VIPER (May 30, 2007)

Pretty much yes, it's kind of made the 106FF redundant really.

It's a great product, I was using it last weekend for the first time properly and was very impressed with both it's cut and the final finish.

Also, without it I would have had to go over the car twice - once with IP and again with 85RD, and obviously taken twice as long. Okay a combo of those 2 would have a greater range of cut and finishing ability, but for a lot of cases and with some paint types, you really wouldn't notice the slightly less sharp final result, and getting the job done in a single step could be a big bonus.


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## RedCloudMC (Jul 19, 2008)

203 is a fantastic product IMO. I am biased towards Menz polishes anyway - love em - but this is a must have in my opinion.

Cheers :thumb:


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## Sandro (Mar 16, 2008)

i think it'll shove IP out the door too TBH, cuts really well for finishing so nicely.


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## Breezy (Jun 24, 2006)

well i might have to go for a 1 litre instead of 250ml then!


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## Dave KG (Feb 23, 2006)

Depends on who you ask.

106FA will always have a place in my detailing regime for as long as it is produced... yes, I know everyone is raving about 203S and yes it is very good, of that there is no doubt - a little more cut than 106FA, and when both are worked to their optimum the 203S can match its finish so in some regards it is "better"...

But there is more to consdier - I come back to the increased cut which essentially results in greater paint removal, especially on softer paints. Now, if 85RD Final Finish is not enough, why step what is for some paints a considerable way up the abrasive scale to 203S when the lighter cutting 106FA will do the job, finish just as well (when used correctly, and its not a black art as some make out to use 106FA and not leave marring with it) and remove less paint in the process.

I would not simply discount 106FA in favour of 203S - they offer slightly different things, definitely in terms of cut level on soft paints in my experience and for that reason I simply couldn't recommend _replacing_ 106FA with 203S.

Indeed, IMO and for what it is worth, I actually though Menzerna had well balanced steps with 85RD, 106FA, 85RD3.02 and 203S to some extents sits rather awkwardly in the middle of the latter two. Yes technically it is "better" than 106FA, but this doesn't mean it replaces it and to me should never be considered as a replacement.


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## Nickos (Apr 27, 2006)

give it a go on vag paint with a lcc green heavy polishing pad Breezy, you'll be impressed. I watched it clear most of the swirls and all the holograms off my e46!


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## Breezy (Jun 24, 2006)

just ordered a litre :thumb:


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## Alan W (May 11, 2006)

Dave KG said:


> Indeed, IMO and for what it is worth, I actually thought Menzerna had well balanced steps with 85RD, 106FA, 85RD3.02 and 203S to some extents sits rather awkwardly in the middle of the latter two.


I totally agree Dave! :thumb:

Alan W


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## bilabonic (Jul 25, 2008)

Who sells this 203s ? Is it ok for dual action ? Just had my car back from bodyshop covered in dust and full of swirls/holograms !! Noticed a load of 3m products and rotary.

Anyway looking for s single stage with nice gloss so it's either Mennz 203, megs 205 or the 106FA ??????????

Ahhhhhhhh


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## Dave KG (Feb 23, 2006)

Yup, the 203S is fine on a Dual Action Polisher. Polishes Bliss currently sell the 203S, and I imagine most other traders will either have this in stock or will be about to get it in stock.

As to what will work on your car, it really depends non how bad the swirls are... holograms are generally quite light and easy to correct, even if they looks severe. I would be tempted to go with one of the Menzerna polishes on the DA, the Meguiars polishes are most at home on the rotary. 

It may be, depending on the paint and the severity of the marks, that 106FA is all you need in terms of abrasive level in which case the extra cut of the 203S is simply wasting paint (however small the amount). But then, it may require more cut in which case 203S comes into play, it may even require more cut and the use of Intensive Polish. If it was me, and I could only have one, I would likely go for the lightest 106FA and perform as many hits as needed to correct the marks so as to remove as little paint as possible, but ideally you would have more than one polish to choose from for flexibility.


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## Chris_4536 (Sep 20, 2006)

Dave - Well said in all points :thumb:


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## bilabonic (Jul 25, 2008)

Cheers Dave, the swirls are light but noticeable as it's black, just hope the 106FA does it really, also me being lazy looking for single pass product with nice gloss finish.

Think i will give 106FA a bash and if no good get the 203s.

Cheers


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## Rich @ PB (Oct 26, 2005)

All worthy discussion points above, but on soft paints why not use better suited polishes in the first place? I'd personally choose Final Polish II over 85RD/RE or 106FF/FA for this type of application, as Final Polish II breaks down far more easily, and is far less prone to causing micromarring in inexperienced hands...


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## Dave KG (Feb 23, 2006)

WX51 TXR said:


> All worthy discussion points above, but on soft paints why not use *better suited polishes* in the first place? I'd personally choose Final Polish II over 85RD/RE or 106FF/FA for this type of application, as Final Polish II breaks down far more easily, and is far less prone to causing micromarring in inexperienced hands...


As you know Rich, I would debate this point personally and while I do appreciate where you are coming from with regards to micromarring, I have taken to giving anyone who is on a DA training day with me the ceramiclear polishes and soft paint and I dont see many, if any at all, causing micromarring - yes, it requires to know the technique but its not a huge black art if you are familiar with the generics of machine polishing... But we all have different opinions as to the best choice of polishes depending on our indivudual experiences and circumstances... In my personal experience based on my own polishing and working with those new to machine polishing, the ceramiclear polishes are perfectly suited to soft paints without huge manipulation of technique and once honed I find they offer marginally superior results - perhaps just me, but this is why I will continue to recommend them for hard and soft paints alike.


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## Rich @ PB (Oct 26, 2005)

All fair points; I'm just going by our wealth of experience, and presenting an alternative viewpoint for people to consider. :thumb:


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## Dave KG (Feb 23, 2006)

WX51 TXR said:


> All fair points; I'm just going by our wealth of experience, and presenting an alternative viewpoint for people to consider. :thumb:


Indeed, and I certainly do appreciate where you are coming from with your points too  I am just keen to ensure folk are not put off using a product that is perfectly fit for task when what is required is the correct machine polishing technique to use them - not a case, IMO, of "special" technique but rather a case of correct technique and both new users and veteran users alike I see getting perfect results from ceramiclear which suggests to me the issue lies not with the polish but with the techniques being used. Clearly, we share different viewpoints based on what I can only presume are differing experiences, both equally as valid as the other :thumb:

As I'm sure you'll appreciate, machine polishing is a bit like learning to drive... once you learn, you have the basic skills but its experience that will perfect your talent. But if the basic skills are not in place, you form bad habbits which are often compensated for unnecessarily... this is my feeling on the ceramiclear abrasives: bad habbits of short work times, and most crucially too large a working area result in poor performance from the polish but rather than correct the habbit, it is compensated for by using a more "forgiving" polish: ultimately this works in the short term, and I can happily see this being recommended to ensure someone who buys a product from you is not disappointed. But I see things from a different point of view, and the desire to see people's talent being increased through learning correct basics and building from strong foundations - just me, and granted I am perhaps a little strange but I am a firm believer in learning the "correct" basics to give you as strong a grounding as possible as only this way can you really have the flexibility to thoroughly learn your trade through increasing experience.


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## Dave KG (Feb 23, 2006)

PS - I am aware here that I have the luxury of working with people's technques and skills which is something you dont always have if you are on the other end of the phone and someone is having difficulty, and I certainly do appreciate your reasons for your recommendations as well - a more forgiving polish will go some way to gauranteeing folk who use it "not quite correctly" will not leave marring, and it is the sign of a responsible trader to be erring on the side of caution here as you do, which I admire.

My side of things is somewhat different as I do have the luxury of working with people one-to-one or as a group in person, and working on building the solid foundations of the skills that I mention above. I'm sure you'll also appreciate that a solid skill base is truly better than compensating for errors, and this is why I believe what I do and recommend what I do... 

Believing that getting the best out of a polish is not a black art but rather something based on the correct basics, I am simply keen not to see folk developping "bad" techniques which will reduce their skill level and flexibility in future... as many of us on this forum simply wont stay with one polish and one car, but will change around and having a more solid grounding will make changing and learning much easier and more productive.


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## spurgen (Aug 13, 2008)

In the Australian market it has replaced 85RD3.01, 106FF remains. I would of preferred a product with slightly more cut, but finished like 3.01, bridging the gap between IP and Power Gloss. Much like 106 fits in between 3.01 and 85RD.


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## Dave KG (Feb 23, 2006)

spurgen said:


> In the Australian market it has replaced 85RD3.01, 106FF remains. I would of preferred a product with slightly more cut, but finished like 3.01, bridging the gap between IP and Power Gloss. Much like 106 fits in between 3.01 and 85RD.


Thats interesting, as for me 203S hasn't the cut of IP and would certianly not have been a replacement for it... I does for me sit rather uncomfortably between already well divided cutting levels, and while I appreciate the desire to push on technology here by offering more cut with sharp finishing ability, the product's actual cut level doesn't appear to have been well thought out relative to the range it is slotting into.

Yes, if you buy them all, then you have great flexibility... and 203S is technically brilliant.

But - if 203S _replaces_ 106FA we are in a situation where if 85RD doesn't remove the marks, its a big jump in aggression to 203S which may not be necessary when the smaller cut level jump to 106FA would have been suitable... If 203S replaces 85RD3.02 then you loose your workhorse intermediate polish and would be left looking at compounds when not ultimately necessary.

Dont get me wrong, I think 203S is a great product - but I wouldn't comnsider it an answer to all our machine polishing prayers, and it is important when looking at and choosing polishes to remember the cut level is very important when looking for achieving correction with minimum paint removal.


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## VIPER (May 30, 2007)

Having thought about it further, and after reading the posts on here, I'm more inclined to think that 203S replacing 106 isn't such a good idea, if indeed that what it's intended to do? 
I'd rather see it as a product 'outside' the range of the 3 (IP, 106 and 85 FF), as you rightly say, Dave, those 3 products do have a very evenly spaced progression of cut and stepping up from one to the next isn't such a huge leap. I see the 203S running somewhat parallel to the current line up for use when 106 wouldn't be enough, and for whatever reason (most likely time) a 'double' session of IP followed by PO85 FF isn't an option.
I was faced with this exact situation only the other week when I had to get my Mum's car done in a relatively short space of time and the IP > 85FF approach just wouldn't have been possible. I could also see that 106 wouldn't have been enough so reached for the 203S which got the job done in one session. If I'd had the luxury of longer to devote to the job I would have ideally gone for the IP > 85FF and, I dare say, got a slightly better overall result (I wasn't going for all out correction anyway, more like 95%), but on the day the 203S came into its own.

It definitely has a valid place in many people's kit, but then so does the 106 really after further consideration, so personally I like to see it remain in Menzerna's line up.


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## Rich @ PB (Oct 26, 2005)

Dave KG said:


> But - if 203S _replaces_ 106FA we are in a situation where if 85RD doesn't remove the marks, its a big jump in aggression to 203S which may not be necessary when the smaller cut level jump to 106FA would have been suitable...


Yes, but this is where 85RE comes in, and why we have switched over to stocking 85RE rather than 85RD. 85RD was always a superb refining polish, but it lacked sufficient bite for nipping out heavy wash marring from very hard paints. 85RE now offers this ability, and slides a notch back up the cut scale towards 203S, evening out the imbalance you see in the system you point out above. Our decision to introduce 203S and 85RE as replacements for 106FA and 85RD was well thought out on the back of a lot of testing and experimentation using both DA and rotary polishers. We feel that our line up is now much more robust, although it will be revised further when the new Power Gloss and RD3.02 replacements become available towards the year.


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## spurgen (Aug 13, 2008)

So the 203S does not actually have the cutting ability of 3.02? According to the Menzerna spec sheet http://www.polishedbliss.co.uk/acatalog/pdfs/menzerna.pdf the cut rating of 203S and 3.02 are the same with the 203S having a higher gloss factor. I assume this is why 203S replaced 3.01 in the Australian market.


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## VIPER (May 30, 2007)

spurgen said:


> So the 203S does not actually have the cutting ability of 3.02? According to the Menzerna spec sheet http://www.polishedbliss.co.uk/acatalog/pdfs/menzerna.pdf the cut rating of 203S and 3.02 are the same with the 203S having a higher gloss factor. I assume this is why 203S replaced 3.01 in the Australian market.


And the 203S is only given a gloss rating of 3.5 when 3.02 gets a 3 and 106 gets a 5? That doesn't really sit with what I've found in practice tbh. unless I'm reading it wrong (which wouldn't be out of the question lol!)

I'd have gone:-
3.02 Cut 3.5 Gloss 3.0
203S Cut 3.0 Gloss 4.0 (maybe even 4.5)
106FA Cut 2.5 Gloss 4.5
85RD Cut 1.5 Gloss 5.0

But then who am I to argue? lol


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## Dave KG (Feb 23, 2006)

WX51 TXR said:


> Yes, but this is where 85RE comes in, and why we have switched over to stocking 85RE rather than 85RD. 85RD was always a superb refining polish, but it lacked sufficient bite for nipping out heavy wash marring from very hard paints. 85RE now offers this ability, and slides a notch back up the cut scale towards 203S, evening out the imbalance you see in the system you point out above. Our decision to introduce 203S and 85RE as replacements for 106FA and 85RD was well thought out on the back of a lot of testing and experimentation using both DA and rotary polishers. We feel that our line up is now much more robust, although it will be revised further when the new Power Gloss and RD3.02 replacements become available towards the year.


But is 85RE an equivalent cut to 106FA, which I always personally founf was tenably above 85RD? If not, then I still feel there is an imbalance there... I am not suggesting your line up is not well thought out, of course it is, but look at the 203S and where it is being slotted in... Let us put numbers on this to avoid further confusion:

Let us say:

85RD = 2/10
106FA = 4/10
85RD3.02 = 6/10
S34A = 8/10

which is roughly how I would rate them, based on my methods and techniques and my experience of them.

Now, let us include 203S, at what I would say is 5/10.

85RD = 2/10
106FA = 4/10
*203S = 5/10*
85RD3.02 = 6/10
S34A = 8/10

Now dropping 106FA from the lineup, we have what I would describe as a "lopsided" cut lineup, that is very clear to see:

85RD = 2/10
203S = 5/10
85RD3.02 = 6/10
S34A = 8/10

Now, where would you rate 85RE in terms of cut... equivalent to 106FA (4/10) or below (3/10)? Both options below are shown:

85RE = 3/10
203S = 5/10
85RD3.02 = 6/10
S34A = 8/10

85RE = 4/10
203S = 5/10
85RD3.02 = 6/10
S34A = 8/10

Now, having dropped 85RD, what is the light cutting abrasive for absolute minimum paint removal on soft paints, being as I beleive they all use diminshing abrasives there is no reduced work time that one can use to nip the cut level down... If its the latter list, then there is a hole for softer paints... Which I know that you fill with FPII, but having perfected my finshes with both I happily will say on soft paints the ceramiclear abrasives have an advantage.

As above, I am not saying that your lineup is badly thought out, Rich - far from it... simply trying to understand more fully your decisions here based on what I am measuring in terms of cut level and offered flexibility on that front based on my preferred methods of removing as little paint as possible in my work, and having a well balanced set of products on hand.


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## bilabonic (Jul 25, 2008)

Anyone do 250ml bottles of PO106FF ? I can only find 1 litre ones ?


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## VIPER (May 30, 2007)

bilabonic said:


> Anyone do 250ml bottles of PO106FF ? I can only find 1 litre ones ?


Cleanyoucar does them in the small size iirc.


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## yetizone (Jun 25, 2008)

Hi guys, I found this on the Polished Bliss site, it may be of interest....

http://www.polishedbliss.co.uk/acatalog/pdfs/menzerna.pdf

Seems that the new 203 is placed firmly in the polishing section, in the middle of the top chart?

Much as I'm enjoying learning how to use their products, for a Newbie to machine polishing like me, I do wish Menzerna would simplify their product range :thumb:


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## VIPER (May 30, 2007)

I agree totally with that. Menzerna has by far the most unnecessarily complicated and confusingly numbered product range I've ever seen. 

The polishes themsleves are fantastic, and my current faves, but for newbies to all of this, they haven't got a hope in hell of understanding the Menzerna product range.


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## Rich @ PB (Oct 26, 2005)

Which is why we try our best to cut through all of the numbers and useless OEM data sheets and provide our own guidance! We view the current line up as follows in terms of cut levels...

85RE - 3/10
203S - 6/10
RD3.02 - 7/10

At first glance this does seem unbalanced, but as I said above, the revision of RD3.02 and S34A later this year will address the top end issues and give a 9/10 cut product that will fit in very neatly in the above scheme. Waiting for everything to happen at once isn't always practical, hence our decision to adopt 85RE and 203S now rather than later. 

We've dropped 85RD because it doesn't always cut enough to nip out minor compounding hologramming or wash marring in harder paints - 85RE is by far a better finishing polish in this respect. On this subject, 85RE also greatly reduces the need to step up to a more aggressive polish such as the now redundant 106FA. On the theme of minimising paint removal (yet still getting the job done quickly and efficiently), opting for 85RE allows for a greater level of correction at the minor end of the scale, meaning that we now have a solution that works more consistently than 85RD and does away with the need to remove additional paint by stepping up to 106FA.

On the 106FA issue, it rarely had sufficient cut to allow true one step minor correction work on intermediate and hard paints, and 203S steps in neatly to fill this gap and finishes down even better and more easily in novice hands. I would also point out the pad sensitivity of 203S is worth exploring, and is an issue many of you overlook. Use it with soft reticulated pads and the relative cut level comes down a notch, but switch to a non-reticulated polishing pad and you can make it work a lot harder. This is also a valid point for RD3.02. I can safely say that if you use it with hard non-reticulated cutting pads you will be amazed at what you can do with it, even on very hard paints.

I've been toying with the idea of removing the official Menzerna data sheets from our site, as they only seem to confuse people (us included when we see new products listed and then test them only to find unexpected differences in the performance on offer!). My advice to everyone is to take the official cut and gloss figures with a pinch of salt, and pay more attention to our own findings and published cut/gloss levels.


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## Dave KG (Feb 23, 2006)

It is clear from reading back through the discussion that the _best_ route to flexibility is to have as many polishes as possible with as many cut ranges as possible (and as you rightly point out, varying the pad can have a notable effect on _some_ polishes with _some_ techniques - much experimenting will confirm there are many variables to play with)... Putting a cut number on polishes gives general guidance on one of these variables which is why I have used it here.

Now 85RE does suit the hard paint issues that you have described very well indeed, allowing a little extra correction without stepping to the next level up of 106FA - but to me there is still something at the very light end of the scale now missing, something for soft paints requiring only a very small amount of cut and this was something that for me 85RD always fulfilled very well that a more cutting abrasive would have a disadvantage on.

For me, balance is always the key, and the "old" lineup appears to me to be the best balanced of the lot in terms of well separated steps allowing a wide variety of cuts and finishes - as you know I dont care about time when it comes to machine polishing, I'll just work into the night if I need to use a longer approach if it means me getting the job done as best as possible with the minimum removed paint... I have this luxury however, and I do appreciate that many dont... But see this also from my side of the coin and I am sure you will understand where my discussion points are coming from too. I certainly appreciate the range choices you are making, as I mentioned once before, I dont think they are poor choices, and I am aware of the amount of thought that must go into them...

However, I am also very wary of new products being focussed on for their individual on-paper ability and folk fogetting about the bigger picture of paint removal and flexibility in the range as a whole.


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## Porta (Jan 3, 2007)

All I can add to this is that Menzerna PO203S is a killer polish. I have done many one steppers and the gloss is _very_ good. Even after multiple IPA wipedowns and a alkalie wash.


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## bilabonic (Jul 25, 2008)

Just ordered some 203s, reading up it looks as if it has a short work time ? Only used SFX polishes before and just worked them until starting to dust.

Any tips/hints with this Menz 203s ?


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## VIPER (May 30, 2007)

Dave, I have to agree with you about being sad at the loss of the 85RD, although, Rich I totally understand the reason behind you going with the 85RE :thumb:.

Reason being, Dave is that just speaking personally, my XR2 with its single stage black (and original 20 year old paint) is soft, (probably quite thin by now) and highly sensitive to marring with anything other than very mildest products. Now it got fully machined with 85RD by me a while ago and whilst I don't ever intend having to do it fully again, there might be the odd time in the future I need to go over an area or a panel to remove any accidental swirls or light RDS. I really don't think I fancy using the 85RE and so what would you recommend as an alternative to the 85RD which seems to suit my paint and have just enough cut to sort out any little problems with the very minimum of paint removal?


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## Epoch (Jul 30, 2006)

Pit Viper said:


> Dave, I have to agree with you about being sad at the loss of the 85RD, although, Rich I totally understand the reason behind you going with the 85RE :thumb:.
> 
> Reason being, Dave is that just speaking personally, my XR2 with its single stage black (and original 20 year old paint) is soft, (probably quite thin by now) and highly sensitive to marring with anything other than very mildest products. Now it got fully machined with 85RD by me a while ago and whilst I don't ever intend having to do it fully again, there might be the odd time in the future I need to go over an area or a panel to remove any accidental swirls or light RDS. I really don't think I fancy using the 85RE and so what would you recommend as an alternative to the 85RD which seems to suit my paint and have just enough cut to sort out any little problems with the very minimum of paint removal?


[Curve ball] - Get some Nanolex on to put a hard coat over the soft paint :thumb:

We'll get the old girl though a full inspection and put some Vintage on later in the year BUT a hard coating underneath in the future may answer some of your easy marring issues


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## Breezy (Jun 24, 2006)

Is the original PO85RD beeing discontinued then? or is PO8 5RE just an addition?


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## Epoch (Jul 30, 2006)

Breezy said:


> Is the original PO85RD beeing discontinued then? or is PO8 5RE just an addition?


Menz have always made both


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## CleanYourCar (Jan 23, 2006)

I love PO106FA, it's an absolutely awesome polish. I actually think this is the easiest to use Menzerna product. Nice amount of cut and virtually the same levels of gloss as RD. It's much more expensive to buy in than either RD or RE and in my eyes for good reason. As a one stop solution for correction on soft paints and light correction on hard paints on D/A or rotary it's hard to beat.

P0106FA + Menz Polishing pad


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## Porta (Jan 3, 2007)

I love that 50/50!


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## Breezy (Jun 24, 2006)

so has anyone compared the gloss thats achieved with PO106FF vs PO203S?


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## Dave KG (Feb 23, 2006)

CleanYourCar said:


> I love PO106FA, it's an absolutely awesome polish. I actually think this is the easiest to use Menzerna product. Nice amount of cut and virtually the same levels of gloss as RD. It's much more expensive to buy in than either RD or RE and in my eyes for good reason. As a one stop solution for correction on soft paints and light correction on hard paints on D/A or rotary it's hard to beat.
> 
> P0106FA + Menz Polishing pad


You are obviously along the same lines of thought as me Tim, when used correctly (which is not a black art, simply requires sound basic techniques with the machine polisher) 106FA is a superb polish with excellent finishing abilities and a tenable cut level which makes it highly flexible as a product... One of the best for combining a level of cut and finishing ability, and it would certainly be a shame if such a strong performing polish was dropped from the product range.



Breezy said:


> so has anyone compared the gloss thats achieved with PO106FF vs PO203S?


Very similar, on hard paints you will not notice a difference at all, and the same really goes for soft paints as well... 203S is a technically brilliant polish combining a higher level of cut with still superb finishing ability... _but_, given its higher cut level, you remove more paint and this is the advantage 106FA holds... its not as big a jump away from a finishing polish (85RD) in terms of cut and in many cases it is all you need, especially on softer paints, to achieve correction. Stepping up to the more aggressive 203S is simply wasting paint.

As in my earlier posts, balancing your range correctly is the key to having the best flexibility to carry out your paint correction _safely_. Not using products that are more aggressive than necessary and for this you need a well spaced and spread range of cutting and finishing abilities.


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