# Suspended on full pay



## andy665

Dropped a major clanger at work and now potentially going to pay the penalty.

Brief overview:

1. Delivered training for a client that went down like a lead balloon, I had previously expressed concerns about the content that were completely ignored, a colleague delivered the same course earlier in the week that went down very badly too

2. On completion of the course I sat down with a colleague who used to work for my employer but has now switched to our clients payroll (but doing exactly the same job as he did when we employed him). This person was taking notes of all the criticisms / dissent - I advised that I would collate the feedback and distribute internally - this person asked if he could be cc'ed in to the email but he would keep it "to himself"

3. The resultant email was escalated by this person once received meaning the s*** has really hit the fan, leading to my suspension on full pay pending "an investigation in to my actions". 

I don't need to be told I was foolish / naive / stupid to actually trust this person but I also stand by the content of the email absolutely and can justify every single point.

Am I right to work on the principle of "expect the worst and prepare accordingly" or should I wait to see what comes out of the initial meeting with my line manager.

I have an appointment with an employment law solicitor on Tuesday - would it be best not to see my line manager before I have sought legal advice?

More fool me for daring to trust someone


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## ottostein

Never trust anyone, my motto.

How bad was the email to get suspended? seems like a bit overkill if you ask me.


Id expect to get a disiplinary but not the p45 unless you were racist/horrible tothe boss/degrading people ect.


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## djgregory

See the solicitor first, they will advise you on what steps to take


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## nick_mcuk

wow what a crappy situation....i hope it all resolves itself.

With regards to your last post detailing you Length of service it really does depend on if they are looking at this a Gross Misconduct...if they do it could be instant dismissal.

I do hope they dont go that route and it all works out for you.

Deffo seek legal advice though as you also dont know if there are other forces at play here and they are looking for an excuse to cut the head count.


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## djgregory

So what exactly have you done wrong?

Criticized the clients training?

Or criticized the training that your company has asked you to deliver?


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## PaulN

When you say prepare for the worst what do you mean? Look for a new job, or just expect being sacked?

Thats bonkers this bloke has dropped you in the sh*t..... Id defo go around and have a chat with him if you lose your job over it mate....


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## rkelly113

Thats awful.
I would never trust anyone and always careful what i put on paper/email.
From your point 1... It seems that your manager has alot to answer for if your concerns were unanswered and the fact the same training went bad earlier in the week.

I dont see how they can drop you like that. Especially after your long service and never any problems before.
If your email only included the problems that were highlighted from the training, i really don't understand their grounds for suspending you just like that. If thats they way they work its not very good!

Would be good to speak to a lawer alright....if theres a union, would also be beneficial to get their view.
Be well prepared for when they call you in... Know your rights....have every event written down prior to the training, during the training and after the training with all emails etc... Have it all documented and even printed.

By the way, im also a trainer for quite a while now and I would like to think my employer would not treat me like this.

I hope it fairs out for the best!

Yeah i too think there are forces at play!


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## steviebabe0

What are the consequences/implications of this poor training, is it going to lose the company future business or money, it does seem a bit OTT, hope it sorts itself out.


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## slineclean

I would say it's more of what stats your company on it. A good friend of mine got treated like crap on a incident and he was got rid off yet he never done anything wrong before.


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## djgregory

Note down everything, literally, full notes, e-mails the lot.

Get advice from a lawyer, Union etc

Then when the meeting is called up you will be prepared with everything, i very much doubt they can sack you over whats happened, if they do take them to an employment tribunal.


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## Soul boy 68

nick_mcuk said:


> wow what a crappy situation....i hope it all resolves itself.
> 
> With regards to your last post detailing you Length of service it really does depend on if they are looking at this a Gross Misconduct...if they do it could be instant dismissal.
> 
> I do hope they dont go that route and it all works out for you.
> 
> Deffo seek legal advice though as you also dont know if there are other forces at play here and they are looking for an excuse to cut the head count.


seek leagal advice and involve the other person involved and take him on aswell and play the disclosure of confidentual email card.


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## steviebabe0

andy665 said:


> One very senior delegates stated "This course is terrible - its a waste of my day and your company has bad news stamped all over it" - that hurts me personally and obviously has potentially dire consequences for my employers business


Sounds like they already had it in for your company as they put it and your becoming the scape goat. Have you tried to access your works e-mail to retreive all relevant info for when needed, they probably blocked your access at same time as suspending you.

I doubt very much if you will want to continue working for them when its over anyhow, I would be looking at this as an opportunity to go self employed and move on when it all sorted, either way. Good luck.


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## Strongey

I think they may suggest that by pointing out your company's flaws to their client (albeit accidentally) that you have brought the company into disrepute and therefore may look to dismiss.

I do hope this isn't the case - good luck


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## nick_mcuk

So any update??


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## nbray67

andy665 said:


> This is contained in my email signature
> 
> "the information in this e-mail is confidential and may be legally privileged. it is intended solely for the addressee. access to this e-mail by anyone else is unauthorised. if you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying, distribution or any action taken or omitted to be taken in reliance on it, is prohibited and may be unlawful. when addressed to our clients, any opinions or advice contained in this e-mail are subject to the terms and conditions expressed in any prevailing agreement between xxxx and our client.
> 
> I wonder if this could be interpreted as the employee of our client was not permitted to escalate this email to his mangers???


I was going to ask if you had some kind of disclaimer on your 'signature' as most companies carry this to protect not only themselves but the employee.
I'd like to say that the above statement will be the one thing that will hopefully keep you your job. Fingers crossed buddy, the employment lawyer will give you peace of mind today hopefully too.


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## karlak

nbray67 said:


> I was going to ask if you had some kind of disclaimer on your 'signature' as most companies carry this to protect not only themselves but the employee.
> I'd like to say that the above statement will be the one thing that will hopefully keep you your job. Fingers crossed buddy, the employment lawyer will give you peace of mind today hopefully too.


It is a good point here, but I think would be more likely to be used against people within your own company.

We have to attach this to our company emails, which I think is pretty standard wording.

"The contents of this message and any attachments to it are confidential and may be legally privileged. If you have received this message in error, you should delete it from your system immediately and advise the sender. To any recipient of this message within _Company name_, unless otherwise stated you should consider this message and attachments as _Company name_ confidential.


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## Guitarjon

Hate to look on the grim side fella but from my experience when someone puts you on paid suspension it generally means they have an agenda. I'd look for another job before you get the label 'sacked for gross misconduct'

I haven't been on paid suspension myself but know people who have. One thing I have learnt in the last few years which has applied to me is that EVERYBODY is replaceable no matter how good you are.


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## lowejackson

Have you been invited to a disciplinary hearing or is the meeting with your manager just to give you a copy of the report. It is normal practice to inform you on the notification of a disciplinary meeting what the accusations are

Realistically until you know the exact charges against you it is hard to know how to prepare the defence plus it is very easy to second guess what the accusations are and spend a lot of energy preparing for something which may not exist.


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## PaulN

andy665 said:


> The accusation is that I copied an employee of a client into an email that the company believes should have been for internal eyes only - on that accusation I am guilty, there are reasons why I copied the employee in but my employer believes those reasons are not important
> 
> My OH says I should say I copied the person in on the email by mistake but I know I didn't and would not lie about it


Looking at this as a black and white issue......

You shouldnt have copied the bloke in, it was stupid and may end up costing your job.

Purely on the facts you are gulity but i cant really see how this as a one off could be a final warning and sack... there is a very strict warning system they need to follow.... Check your contract of employee hand book for gross misconduct....


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## lowejackson

andy665 said:


> The accusation is that I copied an employee of a client into an email that the company believes should have been for internal eyes only - on that accusation I am guilty, there are reasons why I copied the employee in but my employer believes those reasons are not important
> 
> My OH says I should say I copied the person in on the email by mistake but I know I didn't and would not lie about it


So, essentially it comes down to 1) was the email genuinely confidential in the first place, 2) what was the impact of the email on others i.e. clients, 3) what do the procedures/policy documents say, 4) how has similar transgressions been treated in the past

I have only the most basic knowledge of data protection so it would be silly of me to suggest anything about that area but from my list if I was in trouble I would focus on items 3 & 4


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## The_Bouncer

andy665 said:


> 2. No impact on client apart from they read direct from the horses mouth how unhappy the delegates were with the content of the training - training courses now suspended whist feedback us taken from delegates and addressed for future courses


Certainly as you are fully aware you are in the wrong copying an employee (direct/indirect) of your account customer, you've seen the error there so no point in me going on about that one.

As that person had been taking notes, i would have surmised that there client requested that.

If you were aware of the training and the course not being 100%, do you have a record somewhere where your concerns have been raised prior ? > this may put you in good stead.

Training and courses are funny things, a group of people sit down and decide the best way forward, sometimes being blinkered by multi agendas causing a skew in the process and maybe not as transparent as it could be hence leaving gaps and uncompleted sections. > This is why I have qouted the top section above.

If the company feel that a training course has had such a detriment effect then they are right to halt it and question it's process. The fact that they have done this now places you in a better light. Feedback is feedback regardless. Sure it would have been better for the client to have raised any issues in a more objective manner, other than an email from yourself.

I suppose it's a life lesson never to trust those who you think you feel safe with. I'm glad I'm out of such a corporate environment now after spending 25 years at all levels. Yeah I made mistakes, we all do, it's that which makes you good at what you do. If you can learn from this and move on then it's a bit of self development.

How to handle this with your employers ?

I'd certainly eat a bit of humble pie, that's coming without a doubt. You will have to become a harder/sharper person in future, it's all good being friends in the workplace but as you have found out, some will bite and leave you dangling without a rope.

Take whats coming and offer to change, eat the pie and promise it won't happen again, offer to work on lower accounts and maybe not be involved at this level for a while > take a step back and re-train a bit. Look at the course and see what objectively you could do to improve it.

I'd certainly never deliver something to a client if I was unhappy with it. Talk to the course developers and offer assistance and learn from what they are doing.

You need to make sure it's water tight before you deliver or indeed, that ship is gonna sink.

Depends on how bad they think the error was and how it affect the business is how they will take it out on you, for sure at the moment your name is mud but with a bit of discussion and common sense it can be recovered.

Good luck, let us know how you get on

:thumb:


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## lowejackson

If you have not already asked or are in possession of all the relevant policies and procedures which will relate to the disciplinary, I would ask for them to be sent to you


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## bmwman

andy665 said:


> I should perhaps clarify the reason for my employer suspending me prior to taking "action"
> 
> Its for copying an employee of our client on the email where I raised concerns over the content of the training, direct delegate feedback and points where I felt we could introduce improvements
> 
> The person I copied into the email does indeed work for the client but was until recently one of our own employees and as he took many of the notes and asked if he could be copied in on the email (in confidence) I, at the time, saw this as a reasonable request


At our organisation that would be a disciplinary and potential dismissal for bringing the company in to disrepute. You made a mistake your going to have do wiggle your way out.


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## SteveTDCi

I'm assuming someone has had there ego hurt by constructive criticism of their training. It could be they see this as a way of getting you out. It could be that sudden ding you on full pay might be there way of dealing with it and they can say to the client, look we are dealing with it internally, we have suspended him and will deal with it. This may keep the client happy ... 

Other than clearing your name if they told you to come back to work would you really want to go back ? If not use the time to polish the Boxster, if you already have something lined up either negotiate a settlement or let them finish you and then if they have treated you differently to someone else go for unfair dismissal.


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## lowejackson

Good luck


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## Rundie

'A disciplinary meeting may take place', I was in a situation some years back and got suspended, as I recall the first meeting is a fact finding mission as they shouldn't leap straight into a disciplinary, they have to pretend they are looking at all options.
I was 100% innocent but as there was another person involved and as they wanted to appease them I ended up with a final written warning, it was the easy option for them and prevented the other party sueing later.
I could have appealed but didn't as it was all a game and they weren't willing to lose, the 'punishment' meant nothing anyway and gets wiped after the year. 
Needless to say I don't work for them anymore.


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## nick_mcuk

Good luck Andy hope it all goes well for you dude.


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## Buck

Andy

I'm going to be controversial but some of the comments/advice in this thread are not factually correct.

Suspension on full pay is standard operating procedure and _should_ be used to allow a full and proper investigation to take place. It is not a statement of guilt or a pre-cursor to automatic dismissal. Your meeting with the company is to allow them to ask questions in the investigation and allow you to put across your point of view.

You should have been offered the right of representation - someone to attend the meeting with you. This is ordinarily a work colleague or a union representative if you are a member (which mouses you aren't). If they haven't offered this I would request. This might lead to an adjournment as they have to give you reasonable time to discuss matters.

You copied your client into the email. From what you have said this was without malice or forethought and this is in your favour.

You raised issues regarding suitability of the training to your superiors and your desire to ensure the high standards of your company and yourself led to your actions.

You acted in good faith working with your clients representative and only in hindsight was this an error of judgement.

What material damage has been caused by this action? I guess the client is unhappy as well as your line manager but if it is more emotional rather than commercial then there is an element of "grow up" on their part.

What's the risk to your business as a result? (for example, what % of your companies annual revenue do they represent and have they threatened to cancel the contract?)

They have set precedent with actions taken in similar circumstances against another colleague

If you have no robust policies and procedures or handbook then they are on a very sticky wicket. Ensure you request full copies of these documents (dated) and evidence that these were discussed with you at your induction.

Sorry for the ramble. I know what you are going through is really difficult on many levels but keep calm, focused and do not allow them to railroad your meeting.

Good luck


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## W13sty

I hope the outcome is quicker for you than it has been for me I'm currently in my 7th month of suspension.Numerous disciplinary hearing dates arranged and all cancelled by my employer,union reps are a waste of time as well.Good luck hope it all works out okay


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## SteveTDCi

So even though your suspended you have pretty much landed a better job  sounds like it's actually worked out for the best, and the one trying to drop you in it will be doubly peed off if you walk and drop them In it with there training


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## Buck

andy665 said:


> An hours meeting this afternoon to "investigate" and document the events leading up to my error of judgement turned into 3 hours of me outlining in minute detail the events and have generated 24 pages of notes - I will then discover whether further action will be taken - I'm totally comfortable now that ALL of the facts are documented properly so shall see what happens next
> 
> Fortunately the alternative position I have been discussing is coming along better than I ever imagined and could see me in.a new more pressurised, more risky but potentially fantastic Pan European role within weeks


Well that sounds promising on both levels - the investigation and your potential opportunity.

When have they said that they will update you on the investigation and outcomes?

Good luck


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## ESS

Do not take this the wrong way, & you sound a decent guy who puts too much trust in others........ like myself thinking everybody is the same as yourself / honest / discreet / hardworking / loyal & decent ! NOT TRUE!!
Give the T**T a good hiding for stabbing you in the back.
I Would not hesitate It is a........... JUDAS SH*THOU*E
Sorry 4 the wording.
Hope all goes well.
Ian


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## Derekh929

andy665 said:


> An hours meeting this afternoon to "investigate" and document the events leading up to my error of judgement turned into 3 hours of me outlining in minute detail the events and have generated 24 pages of notes - I will then discover whether further action will be taken - I'm totally comfortable now that ALL of the facts are documented properly so shall see what happens next
> 
> Fortunately the alternative position I have been discussing is coming along better than I ever imagined and could see me in.a new more pressurised, more risky but potentially fantastic Pan European role within weeks


Great to hear Andy good luck


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## andy665

I received formal confirmation last night that I am to attend a Disciplinary Hearing on Monday at 9.30am

It really saddens me that it has come to this, one incident with a company who I was instrumental in saving from going under is being looked at in total isolation

In isolation what I did was clearly wrong, in no way malicious but clearly wrong - for this I seem to be getting castigated for the erosion of a client relationship that has been in trouble for months, something my MD told me point blank back in May 

I have worked for this business since mid 2009 on a rolling monthly contract, becoming an employee in June 2012. When on contract I accepted a day rate of less than half the industry norm - because I believed in the business and wanted to help them

Since becoming employed by them I have discovered that others in the exactly the same role who were brought on board before me (that hurt too) are earning more than I am and one patently has a far superior car (Merc E Class to my Seat Exeo) 

Despite being employed since June 2012 I am still using my own laptop and my own mobile (including footing the full bill) despite my colleagues being provided with all of this at no cost to them

I have just completed a 2046 word statement that I intend to read out on Monday, I feel totally shafted and as you can probably tell by the tone of this - I'm really hurting about it all - years of loyalty, monumental graft and sacrifice all seems to count for absolutely nothing in the face of one genuine error of judgement


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## W13sty

Whats happened to the 5 days notice they are required to give you?


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## James Bagguley

I can understand how you feel, and it seems to me you are completely justified in doing so.
Your employer seems to have just used you, held out on providing you with what you deserve, while giving it freely to less deserving colleagues.

Now they are trying to make you the scapegoat in a situation that seems to have been coming for some time, and sounds bigger than anything that could be blamed on one instance or individual.

You owe them nothing in my opinion, i should put the boot in as much as you can at this hearing and jump ship, let them sink like they would have without you.
If that other job is still going, go for it!

Best of luck with it all Andy :thumb:


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## richard56

Something similar to this happened to me a few years ago.
Nothing to do with emails.
Are you absolutely certain your employer and any colleagues are not reading this forum?
Because some key points for your defense have already been spoken of here.
If you like I can pm what happened to me.
It was a rollercoaster but did have a happy ending.
Rich


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## Dannbodge

I would notify my manager if I were you.
Keep everything transparent otherwise it might come back.

Good luck on the hearing and I hope you get it sorted.


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## wylie coyote

andy665 said:


> No colleagues will be reading this - plus I have retained employer and client confidentiality
> 
> I have just received an email from one of the clients members of staff I was critical of - his actions I detailed are factually correct and the email to me from him is not particulalrly pleasant - wondering whether to forward this to my line manager or just keep it to myself?


Yep, notify your Line Manager. This is unprofessional and just seems to support your position and was probably not authorized by his employer. Like others have said, I would get out if the other job is going. Oh and be sure to copy all relevant parties on your leaving message!:thumb:


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## SteveTDCi

Make sure you get the other job, then regardless of the outcome walk, it sounds like they couldn't care about you so you should feel no loyalty to them. Good luck and hope everything goes your way.


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## ESS

Also seems 2 me that they should remove the non producers who don't give a damn and are fleecing the company & getting better thought of as well, i take it the majority are brown tongues.
No offence it stands out a mile they have been abusing your good nature and are aware of your key skills in relation to the training etc.....
I think the folk that put the training package together have a lot to answer for.
You are just a number at the end of the day, no matter how loyal, there are other worthless folk on better salaries / privileges that wouldn't give a flying FEK if the company folded.
I would stand proud & speak your mind whether it hurts your employer or not, yes you done wrong with that email / you have admitted that.
Tell those ****-holes how that company should be run & put together a "to get shut of list" happened within our company / it did not go down to well but the message was clearly put across and things did change.
I have always said firms like this " DO NOT DESERVE GOOD MEN"
Chin up old chap, another door will open, best of luck & i mean that.
Out of interest i would be interested to know the whereabouts of the ****** that started this, i would show him a few battle scars !!
Regards Ian


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## andy665

I think my employer may be making some procedural errors.

For my disciplinary hearing they needed to produce a report after speaking to me that detailed the events - I received a copy and was not happy with it, some important points were missed or poorly described - I formally requested amends to be made - they have not been made or if they have I have not received a copy of the amended report which the chair of the hearing must use in making his decision

I requested formally (twice) a copy of an important email from the client that supports my theory that they already knew there were issues with the training (and therefore any breakdown in the relationship is not solely down to my error) - again I have not received this

If my understanding of this is correct any failure to supply me with copies of evidence in advance of a Disciplinary Hearing is a breach of procedure


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## slineclean

Yes fully agree to I reckon , this is where this will start getting trickie .

By standing your ground and highlighting this etc , you run the risk of them not liking it and they will bear this in mind when deciding that they going to do. Really feel for you chap , don't know what's best


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## andy665

slineclean said:


> Yes fully agree to I reckon , this is where this will start getting trickie .
> 
> By standing your ground and highlighting this etc , you run the risk of them not liking it and they will bear this in mind when deciding that they going to do. Really feel for you chap , don't know what's best


My plan of action is to say nothing on the day re: non-supply of requested documents, if I escape with my job then no harm done, if I'm dismissed then I potentially have grounds for Unfair Dismissal


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## slineclean

That's it chap , that's the way I would play it. You've asked and it's not been given. Bite tongue see what happens and if you get dismissed . You can go for far dismissal .


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## ianrobbo1

Yep seems to me, they have already made their decision, so you may as well spread the poo about with gusto, as it's not going to make a jot of difference to the outcome, and it "may" stop them behaving in the same manner again,


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## lowejackson

andy665 said:


> I think my employer may be making some procedural errors.
> 
> For my disciplinary hearing they needed to produce a report after speaking to me that detailed the events - I received a copy and was not happy with it, some important points were missed or poorly described - I formally requested amends to be made - they have not been made or if they have I have not received a copy of the amended report which the chair of the hearing must use in making his decision
> 
> I requested formally (twice) a copy of an important email from the client that supports my theory that they already knew there were issues with the training (and therefore any breakdown in the relationship is not solely down to my error) - again I have not received this
> 
> If my understanding of this is correct any failure to supply me with copies of evidence in advance of a Disciplinary Hearing is a breach of procedure


Just a couple of thoughts. A lot will depend on exactly what your procedures state however if the procedure is to let you see and comment on a report this does not mean they should alter it. My view is disagreeing with a report does not constitute a breach of procedure.

On the other hand I would suggest not have sight of a crucial email is not a great way to start a disciplinary hearing.

On a general point, a company which does not follow its own procedures is a badly advised one but this does not automatically make it unfair.

Your decision not to say anything during the procedure is your right although I would suggesting reconsidering this strategy, give the panel your side by explaining what happened and why you did certain things. If it does end up in a Tribunal you have to consider how it looks if you refused to participate.


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## andy665

lowejackson said:


> Just a couple of thoughts. A lot will depend on exactly what your procedures state however if the procedure is to let you see and comment on a report this does not mean they should alter it. My view is disagreeing with a report does not constitute a breach of procedure.
> 
> On the other hand I would suggest not have sight of a crucial email is not a great way to start a disciplinary hearing.
> 
> On a general point, a company which does not follow its own procedures is a badly advised one but this does not automatically make it unfair.
> 
> Your decision not to say anything during the procedure is your right although I would suggesting reconsidering this strategy, give the panelyour side by explaining what happened and why you did certain things. If it does end up in a Tribunal you have to consider how it looks if you refused to participate.


I'm certainly intending to play a full part in the hearing, just not going to make a fuss about the non-supply of documents I requested and have a right to see


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## nbray67

If I'm correct, if you haven't received all of the requested documents prior to the hearing then they will have no choice but to adjourn it for a later day until said documents have been raised and sent out to you.
Remember - You are suspended on full pay so any adjournment means a longer time in full pay, if they dismiss you on the day of the hearing then you lose all pay straight away.
I'd inform them on the day that you have not been supplied with these documents to buy you more time / pay.


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## andy665

nbray67 said:


> If I'm correct, if you haven't received all of the requested documents prior to the hearing then they will have no choice but to adjourn it for a later day until said documents have been raised and sent out to you.
> Remember - You are suspended on full pay so any adjournment means a longer time in full pay, if they dismiss you on the day of the hearing then you lose all pay straight away.
> I'd inform them on the day that you have not been supplied with these documents to buy you more time / pay.


But I will have a clear right to appeal which drags it out even longer

Obviously I'm hoping that the disciplinary will result in no more than a warning


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## sfstu

wow, what a horrible situation to have been put in by your company, and after the effort you've put in....
hope it all goes well for you, take detailed notes at next hearing, be on your guard and i hope they trip themselves up and end up having to recompense you...by the sound of things, they thoroughly deserve it...!
rgds stu

p.s. take it from me, take another job as soon as is possible, it's not nice working somewhere with that kinda thing leaving a bad taste in your mouth...


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## nbray67

andy665 said:


> But I will have a clear right to appeal which drags it out even longer
> 
> Obviously I'm hoping that the disciplinary will result in no more than a warning


Hmmm, true. As I've said before buddy, fingers crossed on the outcome.
I'm still confident you'll keep your job, they're making a mountain out of a mole hill.


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## andy665

Well today's the day, can't help feeling that their decision is made and this is just the next step in the required legal process - feeling like crap and really not looking forward to facing the MD - someone I had always regarded as a friend


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## Hasan1

Good luck mate hope it all works out the way you would like it to


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## richard56

As you say this is part of a process. Take it one step at a time.
If it results in more than a week on the naughty step make sure you start the NEXT STAGE.

Whatever happens it's not the end of the World.
Best wishes
Rich


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## WarrenJ

At the end of the day, if they're that kind of company you are working for then find somewhere else. The stress and strain that comes with an employer like that aren't worth it.


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## Buck

Hope it goes well Andy and your MD makes the right decision based on the evidence.

Regardless of the outcome - good luck


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## Rundie

Good luck mate.


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## Geordieexile

Good luck


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## rkelly113

good luck! Just remember that they are wrong and have gone about this entirely the wrong way.

Best of Luck!


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## alan hanson

best of luck easy to say dont worry but its out of your hands now, hope it goes your way.


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## andy665

The Hearing took a total of 34 minutes, felt it was a legal process (which of course it was) but the fact it was with my MD, someone I regarded as a friend made it difficult.

His opening statement of "How did we get to this" I found quite bizzare - he is the MD and he and he alone got it to that point!!!

Apparently after a meeting with the client they have advised that whilst they do not want me working in 9 of their sites they are happy for me to continue working in another 30+ of their sites - perhaps I'm wrong but surely this calls into question the reasonableness of me being dismissed if this is what happens

Just got to wait for the outcome - not going to be a comfortable 24-48 hours


----------



## Derekh929

andy665 said:


> The Hearing took a total of 34 minutes, felt it was a legal process (which of course it was) but the fact it was with my MD, someone I regarded as a friend made it difficult.
> 
> His opening statement of "How did we get to this" I found quite bizzare - he is the MD and he and he alone got it to that point!!!
> 
> Apparently after a meeting with the client they have advised that whilst they do not want me working in 9 of their sites they are happy for me to continue working in another 30+ of their sites - perhaps I'm wrong but surely this calls into question the reasonableness of me being dismissed if this is what happens
> 
> Just got to wait for the outcome - not going to be a comfortable 24-48 hours


This all seems bizare to me , client only wants you on 30 sites? are they hidding something on the other 9 sites they don't want you to know about, cant understand how they can fire for gross miscounduct if client still willing to let you work on the contract i think there is more to this than meets the eye imho, how you get the other job as i have a feeling someone is trying to inflict pain on you for some reason.


----------



## lowejackson

Try and resist the obvious temptation to start to over analyse what happened and what was said. It is all out of your hands until you know the outcome.

Go and find something to polish


----------



## PaulN

Good luck mate.... Fingers crossed.


----------



## Rundie

When I got suspended years back mine went on like yours with them 'following the process', the then HR woman told me to enjoy the time off !! Some hope when given the possible outcome.
I was livid getting a final written, I had something like 24hrs to lodge an appeal and when I had calmed down and spoke with my union rep. I decided against it. My MD at the time told me that as I had kept my job and got a final written then leave it at that and don't wear it as a 'badge of honour' (?? like he had done me a favour, lol) 
When I returned to work the amount of people that came and shook my hand and said I had been wronged was amazing, this was enough to forget and move on and showed me what a joke the whole process really is.
I got two weeks paid out of it but it's hardly a holiday.


----------



## Kiashuma

Hope this goes well for you. Seems odd to me that a client is happy you work at some sites and not at others. Either they are happy or they are not. Does not ring true with me, some hidden agendas i feel.

I hope you get offered and accept the new job you mention, then you can put this sad state of affairs behind you and move on.


----------



## ianrobbo1

As already said, "someone" has an agenda, hope you get the other job and can tell this lot what's what!!


----------



## Buck

Andy

This is a positive step and behind the scenes your MD/Friend may have been working to try and sort this and



andy665 said:


> The Hearing took a total of 34 minutes, felt it was a legal process (which of course it was) but the fact it was with my MD, someone I regarded as a friend made it difficult.
> 
> His opening statement of "How did we get to this" I found quite bizzare - he is the MD and he and he alone got it to that point!!!


But he won't see that will he? He thinks that you did something to trigger this (he may know the real situation but would deny it!)



> Apparently after a meeting with the client they have advised that whilst they do not want me working in 9 of their sites they are happy for me to continue working in another 30+ of their sites - perhaps I'm wrong but surely this calls into question the reasonableness of me being dismissed if this is what happens


From his perspective he will be trying to protect his business and you (as a friend) and crucially, taking into account that he won't/shouldn't have been the one who made the decision to take it to disciplinary (he wasn't involved in the investigations was he? *this is a key legal/procedural point).
By the client offering to permit your ongoing engagement in 75% of their sites would cast significant doubt on dismissal being the reasonable outcome. He would find it hard to justify this in an ET.

When I have seen selected working before it is usually linked to a person in the clients company - do these sites all have the same area manager for example or are they all certain types of facility/store/office? This would be a good reason for the separation of the sites.



> Just got to wait for the outcome - not going to be a comfortable 24-48 hours


If he was going to dismiss he would have to go down the gross misconduct route. The proposal of working in selected sites makes this doubtful as otherwise he would have no course to mention it. Probable outcome is a warning (verbal or written) with a clear action plan to prevent a reoccurence.

Having said that only he can make that informed decision based on the facts and how he has been presented with them through statements and hearings.


----------



## andy665

Got very annoyed with the fact that my line manager who took the "investigation" meeting with me, true to form, messed up the accuracy if the report, I requested changes and amends and he rejected them all - I'd happily give the bloke a serious slap and is typical of the useless manager he gas been throughout his employment


----------



## SteveTDCi

Shouldn't the panel be made up of independent people ? The one I had to facilitate was made up from me reviewing, the person being interviewed, a staff council rep if the interviewee wanted it, a third person who was independent of the area where the interviewee worked but reasonably senior and finally a note taker ... It seems odd your line manager was allowed to attend.


----------



## andy665

SteveTDCi said:


> Shouldn't the panel be made up of independent people ? The one I had to facilitate was made up from me reviewing, the person being interviewed, a staff council rep if the interviewee wanted it, a third person who was independent of the area where the interviewee worked but reasonably senior and finally a note taker ... It seems odd your line manager was allowed to attend.


My line manager did not attend, it was just my MD and myself, I turned down the chance of having someone observing on my behalf, we are only a small company and had real concerns that any one I chose would be next in the firing line


----------



## andy665

And so it drags on.

At the Disciplinary Hearing yesterday I read out a 2000+ word statement that detailed my 6 year relationship with the business - as was my right.

I have received this afternoon an email from my MD stating that in light of the points I raised in my statement that he needs to speak to people before he can make a final decision.

Be interested to know what peoples gut feelings are about this?


----------



## lowejackson

I do not think there is any meaning to it. At the very least it shows the MD is taking the process seriously by investigating more.


----------



## Rundie

^^ That, he's making out he's taking your statement into account, I had similar and then they just dismissed everything as irrelevant at the final hearing.


----------



## Buck

Really depends upon what was in your statement?

If you have made challenges/accusations of "normal practice" then he needs to see if this is the case and find out more information.

If anything it bodes well for a process that is being taken seriously.


----------



## andy665

Buck said:


> Really depends upon what was in your statement?
> 
> If you have made challenges/accusations of "normal practice" then he needs to see if this is the case and find out more information.
> 
> If anything it bodes well for a process that is being taken seriously.


I made reference to key points which my solicitor insisted be made a matter of record which as employers they have to take into account if I made them a matter of record


----------



## Buck

^well, all is good so far. Did your MD say when he would update you?


----------



## andy665

And still had no news, really just want it over and done with now


----------



## Rundie

andy665 said:


> And still had no news, really just want it over and done with now


I know the feeling, they just all seem to play games and drag it out to look like they're doing their bit. Whatever way it goes it leaves you feeling bitter towards them, such a destructive process.


----------



## Buck

andy665 said:


> And still had no news, really just want it over and done with now


Andy

You should have been given a timescale for them to come back to you. I would politely ask for an update and a date for a meeting to either progress or give you a further update on the expected date of conclusion.


----------



## andy665

Thats all over then - dismissed for Gross Misconduct

Would like to say more but can't at the moment - lets just say that its all worked out ok for me - more info to follow in due course


----------



## slineclean

Cant bel it chap , look forward to hearing of your news ref it working out good for you.


----------



## nbray67

FFS!
Make sure you let them know your full and frank feelings about it all.
It seems to me that you're better off out of it, good luck on the new venture.


----------



## xJay1337

Wow, that's pretty crap..


----------



## Derekh929

Hope you get that new job Andy i think you have been sold down the river scape goat , well you are better out off a back stabbing place like that, they will get ther cumupance in the future i bet, good luck and sorry to learn of this news, but the position would have been more ackward if you was still there i feel


----------



## sfstu

you're definately better off mate as will become clear with a short passage of time :thumb:, although i can imagine how frustrated and angry you must feel right now...

rgds stu


----------



## Kiashuma

This may sound harsh but im glad for you, you deserve so much better than that place, they seem to be using you as the fall guy & taking the pi55.

Onwards and upwards, look forward to hearing about whats up your sleeve :thumb:


----------



## alan hanson

new chapter fresh start, forget what has gone on sounds like most businesses lately any excuse to cut someone off for free.


----------



## Kriminal

andy665 said:


> Thats all over then - dismissed for Gross Misconduct
> 
> Would like to say more but can't at the moment - lets just say that its all worked out ok for me - more info to follow in due course


My heart sank when I read that first line. I haven't commented throughout this thread, but have been reading in the 'background', as I'm not really 'qualified' to comment on what should and shouldn't be done in such a situation; I know who's side I've always been on though!

Part of me is glad you're no longer tied to these wasters, and part of me is concerned what you do next.

When you say, "all worked out for me", I REALLY DO hope it means security and happiness for the future.

Good riddance to bad rubbish mate :thumb:


----------



## NMH

Kriminal said:


> My heart sank when I read that first line. I haven't commented throughout this thread, but have been reading in the 'background', as I'm not really 'qualified' to comment on what should and shouldn't be done in such a situation; I know who's side I've always been on though!
> 
> Part of me is glad you're no longer tied to these wasters, and part of me is concerned what you do next.
> 
> When you say, "all worked out for me", I REALLY DO hope it means security and happiness for the future.
> 
> Good riddance to bad rubbish mate :thumb:


+1:thumb:


----------



## Tricky Red

Kriminal said:


> My heart sank when I read that first line. I haven't commented throughout this thread, but have been reading in the 'background', as I'm not really 'qualified' to comment on what should and shouldn't be done in such a situation; I know who's side I've always been on though!
> 
> Part of me is glad you're no longer tied to these wasters, and part of me is concerned what you do next.
> 
> When you say, "all worked out for me", I REALLY DO hope it means security and happiness for the future.
> 
> Good riddance to bad rubbish mate :thumb:


I would imagine some sort of settlement agreement has been drawn up.


----------



## Kriminal

Tricky Red said:


> I would imagine some sort of settlement agreement has been drawn up.


I hope it's a DAMN good one :thumb:


----------



## lowejackson

Sorry to hear it ended in such a brutal way but it is great news about the new job


----------



## wylie coyote

Best of luck in your new job Andy - wish you all the best. Make sure they know you're better off and relieved you won't be there to save their rears next time the business is in trouble....:thumb:


----------



## 3dom

Ten pages and one of the rare threads on here that was enjoyable and purposeful throughout!

Best of luck with your endeavours Andy. You come across as a meticulous kind of fellow so I hope that you'll take these experiences with you, and move onwards and upwards to better things


----------



## kh904

Kriminal said:


> My heart sank when I read that first line. I haven't commented throughout this thread, but have been reading in the 'background', as I'm not really 'qualified' to comment on what should and shouldn't be done in such a situation; I know who's side I've always been on though!
> 
> Part of me is glad you're no longer tied to these wasters, and part of me is concerned what you do next.
> 
> When you say, "all worked out for me", I REALLY DO hope it means security and happiness for the future.
> 
> Good riddance to bad rubbish mate :thumb:


I've also been keeping an eye on this thread but hadn't commented, but you've summed up my feelings on the whole situation.

I really hope you've got something lined up, it seems like you've left a ship that's on course to hit an iceberg at some point!


----------



## ianrobbo1

I concur with Kriminal's sentiments,  
I'm a great believer in Karma, and almost certainly this will come round and bite all the back stabbers in the botty!!


----------



## James Bagguley

I think your former employers have shot themselves in the foot following the course of action they have.
I just hope it becomes apparent to them as they see things crumbling around their ears after removing a vital support from the structure!

Hope things are fixing for a good outcome for you at least, good luck with it all Andy.


----------



## Buck

Totally agree with the above comments and well wishes Andy. 

What did they site as the reason for gross misconduct? Was it "bringing the company into disrepute" or some other spurious reason!

Best Wishes
Buck


----------



## andy665

Buck said:


> Totally agree with the above comments and well wishes Andy.
> 
> What did they site as the reason for gross misconduct? Was it "bringing the company into disrepute" or some other spurious reason!
> 
> Best Wishes
> Buck


Bringing company's name in to disrepute, even though the client was still happy for me to work in 90% of their sites. MD stated that this would likely change and it would become difficult to work in any capacity for that client. Doing some number crunching even if I never worked for that client in any way if would still be responsible for 50% more clients than a colleague doing exactly the same job as I did so there was still plenty of scope for me to remain there - simple fact is that I simply did not want to stay

The MDs response to my written statement was so riddled with out and out lies that it was laughable

I decided immediately to rise above it all, retain my dignity and integrity and focus on the future.

Fighting their decision would be futile and stressful and I have no desire to work within a business that is so willing to act in the way that they have

By simply walking away and not making an issue of it gives them no opportunity to spout further lies


----------



## Buck

^^ sounds like they have made the facts fit the case!

As you say, walk away with your pride intact. I hope your new venture works out well - as others have said, karma will win out!


----------



## mattsbmw

Again, i havent commented before but have watched the Thread, and i really do feel for you Andy, not a nice situation at all,

Have you considered legal action on unfair dismissal?

Hope the future holds something better for you.


----------



## Craighightower

Gutted that you have been put through this. Well done in getting another job. Is it worth going through an appeal / industrial tribunal so that this is not recorded on your career?


----------



## richard56

Chin up Andy I am sure whatever you choose to do next will be the right decision for you.
Best wishes
Rich


----------



## lowejackson

andy665 said:


> ......By simply walking away and not making an issue of it gives them no opportunity to spout further lies


Without a compromise agreement in place they can say whatever they want. If I was in this situation I would lodge an appeal and give some serious thought to sending all correspondence via your solicitor. Firstly, this gives you options and you can drop out any any point.

My main concern would be how the next employer would view me if I had been dismissed for gross misconduct. As a HR contractor, a reference for me is absolutely critical and dismal for grounds of gross misconduct would make it extremely hard to get a job. However, in some sectors this may not be so clear cut.

My goal would be to appeal with the goal of reaching an compromise agreement as I accept the company does not want to work with me and I guess I would not want to work with them. A mutually agreeable compromise could easily be worked out.

You cannot go to a Tribunal without following the appeals process and from what you have said you do not want to go to a Tribunal. However, your last employer would probably want to avoid this as I would seek to bring the client into the Tribunal and this has, in my experience, a remarkable effect of focusing the minds to do a deal.

The reason I suggest using a solicitor is this shows you are serious and the biggest advantage of using a rep or third party is they can ask for things which would be hard for any employee to seek i.e. compromise agreement.

If you next employer is aware and relaxed about the situation then you are probably fine but only a compromise agreement can stop them saying anything or indeed trying to do anything which you would not like


----------



## Kriminal

andy665 said:


> Bringing company's name in to disrepute, even though the client was still happy for me to work in 90% of their sites. MD stated that this would likely change and it would become difficult to work in any capacity for that client. Doing some number crunching even if I never worked for that client in any way if would still be responsible for 50% more clients than a colleague doing exactly the same job as I did so there was still plenty of scope for me to remain there - simple fact is that I simply did not want to stay
> 
> The MDs response to my written statement was so riddled with out and out lies that it was laughable
> 
> I decided immediately to rise above it all, retain my dignity and integrity and focus on the future.
> 
> Fighting their decision would be futile and stressful and I have no desire to work within a business that is so willing to act in the way that they have
> 
> By simply walking away and not making an issue of it gives them no opportunity to spout further lies


I completely understand your sentiments in not wanting to stay, as the bitter taste it would leave in my mouth would make just getting up in the morning every day a more difficult task as time progresses.

Going back to a previous point you made about your MD, saying how his referral to the situation was kind off, "how did we get to this point Andy?", I clearly believe he (if it's a he) wanted to bury his head until it all disappeared, and obviously never wanted YOU to be in this situation....as I'm sure you are/were a valued employee.

If you've reached a wall where stress is going to conquer your emotions, I truly think you're doing the right thing...

...BUT....there's always a BUT, right? Lowejackson also has some strong points that he's put across in his above response that I'd like to 'amplify'; which will make you understand more about my above comment regarding your MD's feelings towards the whole situation :

A reference is always a great aid in getting your next job, no matter what - we all know that! If you have already walked away from this horrendous company, I'd write a letter, or email, to your MD asking if due to your situation, and what has happened, he'd at least be prepared to supply you with a reference for future roles. I feel he may be a bit more understanding than we all 'read' on here; as I'm sure you're aware. Don't get me wrong, we all know he's also an ar$e for doing what he's done, but I just think he's been put in to a corner himself....one he didn't ever want to be in....and was 'forced' to get rid of you for reasons beyond his control.

Just my 2p's worth, but I hope it helps :thumb:


----------



## andy665

I have a reference guaranteed and what's happening next is not reference dependant as there is a long standing relationship between us anyway


----------



## mattsbmw

So does that mean your going back to being a contractor for them?


----------



## Kriminal

andy665 said:


> I have a reference guaranteed and what's happening next is not reference dependant as there is a long standing relationship between us anyway


<phew> Glad to hear that mate :thumb:

Although your next job may not be reference dependent, I was just thinking a little more further down the lines if things didn't go to plan with this one.

Still, it must be a huge burden of your shoulders seeing the back of those idiots.

It's time to just turn the page in 'The Life of Andy', and start the next Chapter. I really can't be ar$ed with trying to take things further (at times). Sometimes, it's just better to focus your energy on the positive things, and move on from the negatives.


----------



## ianrobbo1

:doublesho Your not selling your bottom are you?? :doublesho


----------



## PaulN

lowejackson said:


> Without a compromise agreement in place they can say whatever they want. If I was in this situation I would lodge an appeal and give some serious thought to sending all correspondence via your solicitor. Firstly, this gives you options and you can drop out any any point.
> 
> My main concern would be how the next employer would view me if I had been dismissed for gross misconduct. As a HR contractor, a reference for me is absolutely critical and dismal for grounds of gross misconduct would make it extremely hard to get a job. However, in some sectors this may not be so clear cut.
> 
> My goal would be to appeal with the goal of reaching an compromise agreement as I accept the company does not want to work with me and I guess I would not want to work with them. A mutually agreeable compromise could easily be worked out.
> 
> You cannot go to a Tribunal without following the appeals process and from what you have said you do not want to go to a Tribunal. However, your last employer would probably want to avoid this as I would seek to bring the client into the Tribunal and this has, in my experience, a remarkable effect of focusing the minds to do a deal.
> 
> The reason I suggest using a solicitor is this shows you are serious and the biggest advantage of using a rep or third party is they can ask for things which would be hard for any employee to seek i.e. compromise agreement.
> 
> If you next employer is aware and relaxed about the situation then you are probably fine but only a compromise agreement can stop them saying anything or indeed trying to do anything which you would not like


I completely agree, start the appeal process even if its for new employers to see you have and maybe to make your old MD sweat.


----------



## xJay1337

Regarding the reference, an employer cannot give a BAD reference. That meaning, they cannot say anything which is not 100% factual.
In this case I feel that anything negatively said about you would not be 100% factual. Ergo they would in all likely hood only confirm position served and dates etc. At worst they would state you were dismissed for gross misconduct.

If they were to give a bad reference which was not 100% factual then you can sue for negligent misstatement.

I find it helps to be completely honest. If you were fired for gross misconduct tell your possible new employer during the interview. Explain the situation, and be honest.

I got let go for Gross Misconduct at the company before last. My actual crime was going for an interview with a rival company (who my friend's Dad was the MD of). I took half a days Holiday and went for the interview in my own time. This was on a Friday
The MD of the company I worked for at the time found out over the weekend, and went ballastic. During this time they had also spent a substantial amount of time researching me online, finding my Tumblr page (it's a blog site basically) after trying to find information to use to make jokes at my expense and where I shared with my followers that I was not entirely happy at my job, that my quality of personal life was terrible (due to my abysmal pay, under a grand a month meaning I couldn't see my friends or go out with them) and that I was sad my other friend from work was leaving as well, due to being treated badly and paid very little as well. At no point did I mention what company I worked for and at no point did I ever mention any clients or anything. So it was completely anonymous in that respect.

Everyone aside from the management and one sales guy, who worked there, has since left.

Anyway, on the Monday, I got called into a meeting with the MD who stood there, called me a c**t, said I had "no loyalty", all sorts of other things... they told me to resign and I refused, I was then suspended on NO PAY and 2 days later they had a meeting and fired me for gross misconduct. 

I have no shame in telling any employers that story because I did nothing wrong. It was really a terrible company to work for.

I feel your situation is similar.


----------



## andy665

xJay1337 said:


> Regarding the reference, an employer cannot give a BAD reference. That meaning, they cannot say anything which is not 100% factual.
> In this case I feel that anything negatively said about you would not be 100% factual. Ergo they would in all likely hood only confirm position served and dates etc. At worst they would state you were dismissed for gross misconduct.
> 
> If they were to give a bad reference which was not 100% factual then you can sue for negligent misstatement.
> 
> I find it helps to be completely honest. If you were fired for gross misconduct tell your possible new employer during the interview. Explain the situation, and be honest.
> 
> I got let go for Gross Misconduct at the company before last. My actual crime was going for an interview with a rival company (who my friend's Dad was the MD of). I took half a days Holiday and went for the interview in my own time. This was on a Friday
> The MD of the company I worked for at the time found out over the weekend, and went ballastic. During this time they had also spent a substantial amount of time researching me online, finding my Tumblr page (it's a blog site basically) after trying to find information to use to make jokes at my expense and where I shared with my followers that I was not entirely happy at my job, that my quality of personal life was terrible (due to my abysmal pay, under a grand a month meaning I couldn't see my friends or go out with them) and that I was sad my other friend from work was leaving as well, due to being treated badly and paid very little as well. At no point did I mention what company I worked for and at no point did I ever mention any clients or anything. So it was completely anonymous in that respect.
> 
> Everyone aside from the management and one sales guy, who worked there, has since left.
> 
> Anyway, on the Monday, I got called into a meeting with the MD who stood there, called me a c**t, said I had "no loyalty", all sorts of other things... they told me to resign and I refused, I was then suspended on NO PAY and 2 days later they had a meeting and fired me for gross misconduct.
> 
> I have no shame in telling any employers that story because I did nothing wrong. It was really a terrible company to work for.
> 
> I feel your situation is similar.


Not dissimilar

Been offered a months salary so a sort of settlement, seeing as though my work situation on a going forwards basis is sorted I'm simply accepting it


----------



## nick_mcuk

andy665 said:


> Not dissimilar
> 
> Been offered a months salary so a sort of settlement, seeing as though my work situation on a going forwards basis is sorted I'm simply accepting it


Good to hear a positive-ish outcome....I would take the offer and just walk away from these clowns.

You wont win with them as they clearly dont have a rational thought in their heads!!

Goo luck with the new job dude


----------



## andy665

nick_mcuk said:


> Good to hear a positive-ish outcome....I would take the offer and just walk away from these clowns.
> 
> You wont win with them as they clearly dont have a rational thought in their heads!!
> 
> Goo luck with the new job dude


Thats exactly what I have done - dismissed on Thursday, started new job on Monday - doing what I enjoy doing more than anything else

My gut feeling is that they have been left rather confused by the fact that I have not begged them to re-consider - once o/s monies have been paid that a firm but polite letter to MD stating some truths will be compiled and sent


----------



## lowejackson

andy665 said:


> ......My gut feeling is that they have been left rather confused by the fact that I have not begged them to re-consider - once o/s monies have been paid that a firm but polite letter to MD stating some truths will be compiled and sent


Over the years I have seen a lot of letters like this, yet to see one which made any difference. In most cases they were not taken seriously. Obviously if you wish to write one then go ahead, my suggestion however is to write the letter and use as much detail as you want. Print it and then burn it. Let it go and just enjoy your new job


----------



## alan hanson

Defo new chapter one that cant propery stat unless you let go of the one before


----------



## xJay1337

lowejackson said:


> Over the years I have seen a lot of letters like this, yet to see one which made any difference. In most cases they were not taken seriously. Obviously if you wish to write one then go ahead, my suggestion however is to write the letter and use as much detail as you want. Print it and then burn it. Let it go and just enjoy your new job


Yes

Sending letters after the fact does very little.
Doing so before may help.


----------



## Steve Burnett

Can you say, "your a bunch of dicks" in a nice way?


----------



## andy665

At last I can speak

I have now had all o/s monies paid to me so the gloves are off - if I wanted them to be

I had to be very careful about what I said as the MD offered me "without prejudice" an extra one months salary - no expectation on me to sign anything but as it was an offer that could be withdrawn I needed to do the right thing

Basically I had already been talking to someone with whom I've worked for 12 years, they (were) a one man (woman actually) and she had far more work than she could cope with and paying a fortune to give some of the work to contractors to do

Over a drink one evening I floated the idea of doing the maths to see where the break even point was for her to have someone working with her on a permanent basis rather than subbing out the work.

We discovered the break point was 110 days, ie if she had 100 days worth of work for me it was no more expensive to employ me full-time rather than use me (or anybody else) as a sub-contractor, anything more than 110 days and she is making (or saving) money

Then all my previous employer stuff kicked off, when I was dismissed on 8th Nov I discussed things with her and I started work with her on the 11th - so continuous employment and a months salary in hand as well 

Not going to write to my previous MD, not going to slag them off - it was what it was and I had already made up my mind to leave anyway, especially as I'm now doing what I really enjoy doing, also have the added bonus of working mainly from home - doesn't half get lonely sometimes though


----------



## sfstu

good for you Andy, sounds like a good conclusion to things...:thumb:
agree with you for not wanting to write a letter to your MD slagging him off, as you say, it was what it was and no point wasting energy on the negative stuff...
good luck to you mate,
rgds stu


----------



## Kiashuma

Great glad to hear your sorted.

I agree no point in letter writing to old employer, there loss is your gain.


----------



## xJay1337

Epic result.


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## Kriminal

So glad to read the final, and positive, results.....good for you mate. :thumb:

And for the record?....I try to see life as a book, and would rather close the chapter on that previous job and start afresh on your new, more exciting, one.

Let the past lay in the past, concentrate on the present, and the future will be much more brighter


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## lowejackson

The "without prejudice" payment is a little strange but I am pleased things worked out for you. Good luck with the new job :thumb:


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## knightstemplar

Life is mapped out for you, it was meant to be:thumb: enjoy and wait for the next good card dealt.


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## mattsbmw

Glad its all sorted Andy


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## Darlofan

All worked out in the end which is great. As above posts i believe life is mapped out and things happen for a reason. Good on you for seeing sense and not writing a letter to previous MD. Although it seems like a great idea in the heat of the moment it rarely is in the light of day.
I have seen examples of this many times over the years where people have burnt their bridges thinking all is rosy on the other side only to come back when they realise it's not that great. Not saying that's what you'll do but i would bet on your old firm coming calling in the future when they realise what they've let go and what a mistake it was. 

Good luck in your new job. hope it all goes well.:thumb:


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## dominic84

Don't waste time typing - simply send a small package of cat/dog turd (not your own - DNA!) to the MD's home address 

PS - I think it worked out for the best, you don't want to stay with a company when relationships have broken down that badly.

Regarding how much you put into your previous job, my tip is this: "it's not what you do that counts, it's what you're seen to be doing" :thumb:


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## ardandy

andy665 said:


> ....added bonus of working mainly from home - doesn't half get lonely sometimes though


Porn temptation must be epic!


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## PaulN

andy665 said:


> We discovered the break point was 110 days, ie if she had 100 days worth of work for me it was no more expensive to employ me full-time rather than use me (or anybody else) as a sub-contractor, anything more than 110 days and she is making (or saving) money


Im no accountant but what happens between 100 days and 110 days?


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## andy665

PaulN said:


> Im no accountant but what happens between 100 days and 110 days?


My mistake 

By being on an employed status with her business its already saved her a couple £k in November alone - I think I should have pitched for a higher salary - thats my problem - not greedy enough - more important for me to enjoy the work


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## wylie coyote

andy665 said:


> My mistake
> 
> By being on an employed status with her business its already saved her a couple £k in November alone - I think I should have pitched for a higher salary - thats my problem - not greedy enough - more important for me to enjoy the work


Maybe scope for a little profit sharing in the future? Or an increase in salary commensurate with the %age costs saved over using a contractor?:thumb:


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## Darlofan

ardandy said:


> Porn temptation must be epic!


I work from home and sometimes it's quite hard:thumb:


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## kh904

Darlofan said:


> I work from home and sometimes it's quite hard:thumb:


What the temptation or something else?  :lol:


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## sfstu

wylie coyote said:


> Maybe scope for a little profit sharing in the future? Or an increase in salary commensurate with the %age costs saved over using a contractor?:thumb:


this^^^
if she has saved 2k this month, i don't think she mind a small, friendly renegotiation of your salary too much..
strike while the iron's hot and you're on a streak i say..:thumb:


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## Poohbore

I think you would have a better chance mentioning a profit sharing bonus. You both benefit when the the business is going well and when it's not you get the salary you agreed.


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