# Menzerna



## j3ggo (Dec 7, 2011)

Which do you think is best for my 2005 Golf, 203 S or RD 3.02, paint is generally very good, car owned by me from new but it has picked up a few RDS that my RE 5 will not touch. Boy the menz codes are confusing!!!


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## BolgOfTheNorth (Dec 19, 2011)

Out of the two I would say RD3.02, not sure 203S would have enough cut for VW paint.


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## mike_olney (Nov 8, 2012)

especialy if you pair it up with a 3m yellow pad


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## bigmc (Mar 22, 2010)

Are you buying them or do you already have them in your arsenal? If you're buying them I'd suggest not bothering, there's much better available and easier to use polishes about.


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## j3ggo (Dec 7, 2011)

bigmc said:


> Are you buying them or do you already have them in your arsenal? If you're buying them I'd suggest not bothering, there's much better available and easier to use polishes about.


I would be buying them. I have 85rd and 85re5


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## bigmc (Mar 22, 2010)

If you're buying I'd go for Megs 205 and 105.


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## Dave KG (Feb 23, 2006)

Hmmm, not sure I would say there are much better polishes than Mez, have used them for years to very good effects and found them simply a joy to use and would highly recommend them... Indeed, despite trying lots of the newer breeds, I am not tempted away from them.

To answer the question, I would suggest 85RD3.02 for greater flexibility - it has more cut than 203S, but if you do not need the cut you can short set the polish, and then refine with the 85RE that you have.

Megs 105 and 205 are excellent polishes, but very different in style using non-diminishing abrasives, you will need to adapt a new technique to get the most out of what they have to offer. They are more flexible than the diminshing abrasive Menzernas, but do have a bigger learning curve.


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## j3ggo (Dec 7, 2011)

Dave KG said:


> Hmmm, not sure I would say there are much better polishes than Mez, have used them for years to very good effects and found them simply a joy to use and would highly recommend them... Indeed, despite trying lots of the newer breeds, I am not tempted away from them.
> 
> To answer the question, I would suggest 85RD3.02 for greater flexibility - it has more cut than 203S, but if you do not need the cut you can short set the polish, and then refine with the 85RE that you have.
> 
> Megs 105 and 205 are excellent polishes, but very different in style using non-diminishing abrasives, you will need to adapt a new technique to get the most out of what they have to offer. They are more flexible than the diminshing abrasive Menzernas, but do have a bigger learning curve.


Many thanks for this reply, it's what I was hoping to hear. I shall get myself a bottle of 203S.


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## j3ggo (Dec 7, 2011)

Dave KG said:


> Hmmm, not sure I would say there are much better polishes than Mez, have used them for years to very good effects and found them simply a joy to use and would highly recommend them... Indeed, despite trying lots of the newer breeds, I am not tempted away from them.
> 
> To answer the question, I would suggest 85RD3.02 for greater flexibility - it has more cut than 203S, but if you do not need the cut you can short set the polish, and then refine with the 85RE that you have.
> 
> Megs 105 and 205 are excellent polishes, but very different in style using non-diminishing abrasives, you will need to adapt a new technique to get the most out of what they have to offer. They are more flexible than the diminshing abrasive Menzernas, but do have a bigger learning curve.


Hi Dave, do you think it's ok to go from 203s to lsp? Will it finish down enough or will I need my 85re5 or 85rd? Thanks again.


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## RedUntilDead (Feb 10, 2009)

Dave KG said:


> Hmmm, not sure I would say there are much better polishes than Mez, have used them for years to very good effects and found them simply a joy to use and would highly recommend them... Indeed, despite trying lots of the newer breeds, I am not tempted away from them.
> 
> To answer the question, I would suggest 85RD3.02 for greater flexibility - it has more cut than 203S, but if you do not need the cut you can short set the polish, and then refine with the 85RE that you have.
> 
> Megs 105 and 205 are excellent polishes, but very different in style using non-diminishing abrasives, you will need to adapt a new technique to get the most out of what they have to offer. They are more flexible than the diminshing abrasive Menzernas, but do have a bigger learning curve.


Boom! dont see you post much these days apart from puppy love:thumb:
I have always looked out for you input so its good to see your posts.
To the op, what Dave said really, but its been my experience that in really cold weather, the more aggresive Menz compounds/polish are a pig to work with. Experienced guys (especially very Northern) may not think so and I am no noob, but that is my experience. It took me a while to get the hang them and to be honest sent me on path of finding alternative stuff.


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## Black.MB (Aug 22, 2012)

If you're buying Menzerna I'd suggest you FG400 for VW paint. It works very well for me. Even if there are minor swirls I doubt you would cut them out using 203s... When working via DA and polishing pad it finishes very nice and it doesn't require any refining. If you feel it cuts too heavy, you just switch to softer pad.


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## bigmc (Mar 22, 2010)

RedUntilDead said:


> Boom! dont see you post much these days apart from puppy love:thumb:
> I have always looked out for you input so its good to see your posts.
> To the op, what Dave said really, *but its been my experience that in really cold weather, the more aggresive Menz compounds/polish are a pig to work with.* Experienced guys (especially very Northern) may not think so and I am no noob, but that is my experience. It took me a while to get the hang them and to be honest sent me on path of finding alternative stuff.


That was my experience too, too fussy unless the conditions were right, limited experience for me but wasn't a good impression and I haven't/wouldn't buy them again.


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## j3ggo (Dec 7, 2011)

RedUntilDead said:


> Boom! dont see you post much these days apart from puppy love:thumb:
> I have always looked out for you input so its good to see your posts.
> To the op, what Dave said really, but its been my experience that in really cold weather, the more aggresive Menz compounds/polish are a pig to work with. Experienced guys (especially very Northern) may not think so and I am no noob, but that is my experience. It took me a while to get the hang them and to be honest sent me on path of finding alternative stuff.


Thanks for reply, that's disappointing to hear. I quite enjoy my menz stuff.


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## dave- (Nov 8, 2012)

Let us know if you manage to get RDS out of the car. I tried it with my Ford and did not get very far, made marks less noticable but it seemed like it would have taken days of hard work and alot of expensive polish to get rid of them.


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## Porta (Jan 3, 2007)

PO203S with their white foam or a wool pad can handle some nasty swirls if used properly.

For heavy compounding I would suggest Fast gloss 400 with a wool pad.


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## Dave KG (Feb 23, 2006)

j3ggo said:


> Hi Dave, do you think it's ok to go from 203s to lsp? Will it finish down enough or will I need my 85re5 or 85rd? Thanks again.


Yes, if worked correctly (ie small work areas and long work times) then it will finish down LSP ready, it may just lack the ultimate clarity that following qith a dedicated finishing polish would deliver but on many paint types you'd struggle to tell the difference.

I also find the likes of 203S and 85RD3.02 to be very effective at dealing with swirls and marks even on harder paints, but it is necessary to use them correctly to handle more severe marring and this means you do not need to venture to more aggressive compounds unnecessarily. Keep the work area small, no more than 18" square and the work time long to get the best out of the cut the products have to offer and they will surprise yo with what they can remove even from harder paints. Too large a work area and too short a set will reduce what you can achieve from them, and see you using much more aggressive products without the need to, something I used to see happening all too often when I was more involved in the detailing scene.

In terms of working, I was using the 85RD3.02 and 85RD in cold temperatures on a sticky paint Subaru recently - not the most wonderful gliding, but with subtle adjustments to technique the polishes worked wonderfully... In colder temperatures, I usually work longer at slower speeds at the start of the set to build heat in the panel and get the waxy lubricant nicely spread and once spread, I step the speeds up to work the products. Slightly longer set, but it works for me and means I can use the products outside in colder temperatures without issue. Have seen them getting used in near freezing temperatures in my time, you just need to alter your technique to get the best from them but this is the case with any polish


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## caledonia (Sep 13, 2008)

Dave KG said:


> Have seen them getting used in near freezing temperatures in my time, you just need to alter your technique to get the best from them but this is the case with any polish


Errol a good few years back Minus 10C every pipe frozen solid with no water for weeks and menzera still worked well. :lol:
At this is what I call the good times hahaha. I must be a Looney.

Glad to see you back on board Dave. Need to do a catch up soon.:thumb:


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## Dave KG (Feb 23, 2006)

caledonia said:


> Errol a good few years back Minus 10C every pipe frozen solid with no water for weeks and menzera still worked well. :lol:
> At this is what I call the good times hahaha. I must be a Looney.
> 
> Glad to see you back on board Dave. Need to do a catch up soon.:thumb:


Ah yes, those were the days  My great detailing memories :thumb:

Yes, we do need to catch up soon :thumb:


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## j3ggo (Dec 7, 2011)

Just one more question, is there a lesser cut than 203S before I go and buy a litre? In between 85RE5 that is.


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## Dave KG (Feb 23, 2006)

Yup - 106FA sits between 85RE and 203S.


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## j3ggo (Dec 7, 2011)

Dave KG said:


> Yup - 106FA sits between 85RE and 203S.


Thanks never easy. I thought 106FA was similar to 85RE. I wish there weren't so many options. Which one would you go for?


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## Dave KG (Feb 23, 2006)

106FA has more bite than 85RE but under the vast majority of circumstances can be made to finish down equally well so long as your technique with it is spot on. It is more of an all round finishing and light correction polish, whereas 85RE is more of a dedicated finishing polish.

203S is more of a one-stop-shop product, capable of finishing and capable of correction but for me it lacks the sheer clarity of the finishing polishes... if I wanted a one-step product, then 203S would be the one, but I rarely do like this approach so I actually don't often use my 203S, favourng having 106FA and 85RD3.02 as a combo.

If it really is just a one-stepper you are after, go for 203S.

But if it is the ultimate, I would get two: 85RD3.02 for correction work (short set it if you do not need its full cutting power); 85RD/E for dedicated finishing.

106FA comes in when you have light swirls and you are just wanting a light cutting and finishing product in one.


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## j3ggo (Dec 7, 2011)

Dave KG said:


> 106FA has more bite than 85RE but under the vast majority of circumstances can be made to finish down equally well so long as your technique with it is spot on. It is more of an all round finishing and light correction polish, whereas 85RE is more of a dedicated finishing polish.
> 
> 203S is more of a one-stop-shop product, capable of finishing and capable of correction but for me it lacks the sheer clarity of the finishing polishes... if I wanted a one-step product, then 203S would be the one, but I rarely do like this approach so I actually don't often use my 203S, favourng having 106FA and 85RD3.02 as a combo.
> 
> ...


Dave, this really is a comprehensive reply. Thank you. What I am trying to do is remove the swirls and a few RDS. I really like the way 85RD/E make the paint so fresh but just want that bit more bite at times. Maybe I should get a photo. It sounds more like I need RD3.02.


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## Dave KG (Feb 23, 2006)

Yup, consdier the 3.02 and then you can always refine with the 85RD/E. Then you have the best of both worlds, a product dedicated to correction and one dedicated to finishing... Will take longer, but the best finishes cannot be rushed. :thumb:


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## j3ggo (Dec 7, 2011)

Dave KG said:


> Yup, consdier the 3.02 and then you can always refine with the 85RD/E. Then you have the best of both worlds, a product dedicated to correction and one dedicated to finishing... Will take longer, but the best finishes cannot be rushed. :thumb:


Just as long as the 3.02 doesn't over cut the paint it sounds fine.


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## Dave KG (Feb 23, 2006)

j3ggo said:


> Just as long as the 3.02 doesn't over cut the paint it sounds fine.


What I do with 3.02 if I am definitely following with a finishing polish (which I would always strongly recommend for the clarity) is work it until I achieve the correction I want and then stop... Slow speeds to start then up to 1500 - 1800 rpm on a rotary (speed 5ish on a DAS-6 Pro) and work until I have achieved what I want then just stop polishing. You don't need to refine it fully if you are going to be doing the refinement stage with a dedicated finishing polish


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## Mattodl (Sep 13, 2012)

Dave KG said:


> What I do with 3.02 if I am definitely following with a finishing polish (which I would always strongly recommend for the clarity) is work it until I achieve the correction I want and then stop... Slow speeds to start then up to 1500 - 1800 rpm on a rotary (speed 5ish on a DAS-6 Pro) and work until I have achieved what I want then just stop polishing. You don't need to refine it fully if you are going to be doing the refinement stage with a dedicated finishing polish


I'm looking on making a black A3 bling, what polish would you refine with dave and would you use a designated finishing pad (black hex) or just finish up with a low cut polishing pad (white hex)


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## Porta (Jan 3, 2007)

Mattodl said:


> I'm looking on making a black A3 bling, what polish would you refine with dave and would you use a designated finishing pad (black hex) or just finish up with a low cut polishing pad (white hex)


I am not Dave, but I know a little about Menzernas polishes. I would go for a polishing pad and PO106FA. Some correction and a awesome gloss.


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## Dave KG (Feb 23, 2006)

Yup, if its a one stage to refine the finish following other serious correction or you're just looking for light correction, 106FA on a polishing pad will work very nicely


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## j3ggo (Dec 7, 2011)

I must say again how good I think menz is. Did my wife's white BMW on Sunday with 85rd followed by fk1000p. The finish is superb.


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## Black.MB (Aug 22, 2012)

j3ggo said:


> I must say again how good I think menz is. Did my wife's white BMW on Sunday with 85rd followed by fk1000p. The finish is superb.


Nice to hear that:thumb:


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## deegan1979 (Mar 6, 2012)

I too am really enjoying my new menzerna polishes, after struggling to learn with the gtechnic combo i was reccomended to try these and instantly i found them easier to use. Now ive just got to try and find a technique that works for me as im really just doing what menz recommend, spread at speed 1, work at speed 5 then drop back down to 3 for the last few passes, this is working ok but im sure there is much more i can learn when working with them to achieve great results. For instance with the colour of my car i struggle to see when it is broken down and clear so i just keep going and going untill a hazy trail follows the machine, then i drop speeds. Probly should be doing this earlier but im still learning.
Im keeping the movement of the da to an inch per second regardless of what stage or speed im using? Not sure if i should move quicker at the later stages. pad wise im using 203s with either green or white hex pad, my paint only seems to require the white but i cant get on with it so am using green with less pressure, the white pad seems to clog up a bit even tho im using 3 pea sized blobs and it doesnt seem to like pressure being applied unlike the green. I then use 85re on a black hex pad which works great.
Keen for any technique tips or pointers if any of u have any? That includes u steampunk, thought we should carry this on in here where its more relevant to the topic title


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## Steampunk (Aug 11, 2011)

deegan1979 said:


> Keen for any technique tips or pointers if any of u have any? That includes u steampunk, thought we should carry this on in here where its more relevant to the topic title


:lol:

I'm working, so I'll see what I can do in a little bit .

Steampunk


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## deegan1979 (Mar 6, 2012)

Steampunk said:


> :lol:
> 
> I'm working, so I'll see what I can do in a little bit .
> 
> Steampunk


Ur posts yesterday were so informative and helpfull so thanls for that, been working all day too so have had loads of time to think of more questions as u did say dont be afraid to ask.
Hopefully in this thread ur knowledge will be more available to anyone looking for help with the menz range rather than being hidden away in an irrelevant thread. Cheers again


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## Steampunk (Aug 11, 2011)

deegan1979 said:


> I too am really enjoying my new menzerna polishes, after struggling to learn with the gtechnic combo i was reccomended to try these and instantly i found them easier to use. Now ive just got to try and find a technique that works for me as im really just doing what menz recommend, spread at speed 1, work at speed 5 then drop back down to 3 for the last few passes, this is working ok but im sure there is much more i can learn when working with them to achieve great results. For instance with the colour of my car i struggle to see when it is broken down and clear so i just keep going and going untill a hazy trail follows the machine, then i drop speeds. Probly should be doing this earlier but im still learning.
> Im keeping the movement of the da to an inch per second regardless of what stage or speed im using? Not sure if i should move quicker at the later stages. pad wise im using 203s with either green or white hex pad, my paint only seems to require the white but i cant get on with it so am using green with less pressure, the white pad seems to clog up a bit even tho im using 3 pea sized blobs and it doesnt seem to like pressure being applied unlike the green. I then use 85re on a black hex pad which works great.
> Keen for any technique tips or pointers if any of u have any? That includes u steampunk, thought we should carry this on in here where its more relevant to the topic title


Okay, I'm back! Polish residue can sometimes be difficult to see on certain colours, which as you have discovered makes it difficult to visually read when the product has broken down. Strong halogen lighting placed either side of you at an angle to the panel can help make the residue more visible, but even so, in these cases I typically have to rely on experience. If you practice on a dark panel, you will start to get a sense for when you need to change down, and the visual cues that are so important when you're learning will become less necessary. Practice also gives you an intuition about the products, and this helps creates superior results. It also allows you to adapt and cope with new situations, which is something that rigidly adhering to the rulebook does not always allow.

As for the product's reaction, it sounds like you could be over-working it before dropping speed, but I'm not certain. When the polish is 'in the zone', the machine trails should look like oily overlapping circles, which get gradually fainter as you work it. You drop speed before those trails disappear altogether in order to regenerate the lubes, and keep on refining. When I've over-worked Power Finish in the past, the lubes simply disappeared, though I haven't worked it long enough after that point to find out if it hazes if you keep on polishing.

It also sounds like you could be experiencing Menzerna's single foible, and that is its strong dislike of humidity and cold (Though the later may also be due to its association with the dew point.). I experienced something similar to what you are experiencing last night when I tried to use PF2500 at an ambient temperature of 3.5-degree Celsius. I warmed up the panel with an electric heater, and extended my lead-up time to get some heat worked into the lubes, but it felt a bit grabbier than normal (Not bad, just not slick as normal.), and generated a uniform haze after being worked for a fairly short time. After that, the lubes were shot, and dropping speed did not bring them back. The working time was only about 3-5 minutes. It also dusted like a bear with dandruff, which is something I never experience with Menz products under controlled conditions. Does this sound like what you're experiencing?

DaveKG has far more experience with Menzerna than I do, and he might be able to sort out whether your issue is due to technique or climate. Could be a bit of both.

I'll do a quick test with Menzerna PF2500 on my Meguiar's G110V2 DA with a 5.5" Lake Country Tangerine Hydro-Tech pad, and document how it reacts so that you can get a better idea of what might be going wrong. Your situation/technique may vary, but it should give you an idea of how it works in ideal circumstances. The panel in question is a 1968 MGB boot lid with original Mallard Green enamel that I keep in my room for experimentation purposes, and the paint is of a hard consistency. The ambient/panel temperature is approximately 15-degrees Celsius (Yes, I keep my house cold .), with low humidity. After a set to bed in the pad, my results were as follows:

Spread from speeds 1-5 with increasing pressure - 1-1:30 minutes; travel speed fast (Pad primed with four small pea-sized dots of product around periphery of pad.)

Working time at 5800 OPM's with 8-10 kilos of pressure - 7 minutes; travel speed less than 1-inch per second

Working time at 4800 OPM's with 4-5 kilos of pressure - 4 minutes; travel speed 1-inch per second

Working time at 3800 OPM's with 1-2 kilos of pressure - 3 minutes; travel speed just over 1-inch per second

Working time at 2800 OPM's with with machine weight - 4 minutes; travel speed slightly faster than above

Jeweling time at 1800 OPM's with zero pressure (I.E. supporting the machine) - 12 minutes; travel speed approximately 1.5 inches per second

Total set time: 31-31.5 minutes (A rotary would make much faster work of this, and it is why I prefer to use more 'current' combos for intensive paintwork correction with my DA.)

These results are not set in stone, and every situation will vary slightly, so I wouldn't treat my results as gospel.The hardness of the paint, the pad (Especially the pad.), minute changes in arm speed, the temperature, the humidity, etc will all alter when you should adapt speed. How to adapt to every possible variable is something that only experience will teach you. Machine control is very important in this entire process, and keeping the pad perfectly level is especially important during the final stages of refinement. Cleaning the pad with a brush or MF after every set is also crucial.

The last step is basically my jeweling stage, which is where most of the gloss comes from, and is very similar to how I get the maximum gloss out of SF4000. You can skip the last two steps if you're 2-stepping the job, but if you're 1-stepping, or working on soft and finicky paint, I would follow it through.

If you don't get on with the CG's polishing pads, I can highly recommend the LC Hydro-Tech range (Especially in the low-profile, 5.5" variety.). They're lightweight, so they don't transmit as much vibration to your wrists, and are also more rigid for their pore-count. This makes them less likely to distort, and cause marring on finicky paint types. Their closed-cell structure also reduces product absorption, and allows for maximum run-time/cutting efficiency from both European and non-diminishing polishes. There are also only 3-pads in the range, which makes things very simple, and they all finish down well for the amount of cut on offer. My only complaint concerns the Cyan cutting pad, which is not very durable, but if you don't do too much heavy correction it's still a good one to have on hand.

If Menzerna is taking too long, or you need to do heavier correction (Hard paints, deep defects, etc.), I would recommend looking at Optimum's or Meguiar's non-diminishing abrasive polishes. Their working time can be much shorter due to their nature, and the intermediate polishes/heavy compounds can be used very successfully on microfiber pads for plenty of bite. This really turns a DA into a rotary-munching machine, and saves a lot of time on big jobs. For refining, you can keep your set times under 2-minuts to obtain maximum gloss, and improve your work efficiency. They aren't quite as fun to use as Menzerna, but I don't always have the time for Menzerna, so I use them for most of my work. Even the finest non-diminishing polish won't quite match the ultimate gloss of a super-fine diminishing polish on soft paint, but on anything even remotely close to normal hardness, you wouldn't be able to tell the difference.

For more info on non-diminishing polishes and how to use them, check out this thread: http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=289564

I know this turned into the detailing equivalent of 'Pride and Prejudice', but hopefully it answers your questions, and gives you some ideas to play with in future :thumb:. Moving this conversation onto a more relevant thread was very helpful of you to do. If you have any questions, don't hesitate to ask. :thumb:

Steampunk


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## maesal (Nov 24, 2005)

Everybody must try using a wool pad + PO203S, the cutting is nice and the finish is ready for a finishing stage.


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## Porta (Jan 3, 2007)

maesal said:


> Everybody must try using a wool pad + PO203S, the cutting is nice and the finish is ready for a finishing stage.


Yes, and you don't have to work it for a long time. Spread at low rpm, bump up the speed to 1500-2000 and some pressure(5-10 kilos) for the first couple of passes and then lower the pressure and rpm for the final passes. Done.


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## maesal (Nov 24, 2005)

I polished with this combo even the floor of a room of my house !!


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## deegan1979 (Mar 6, 2012)

Steampunk said:


> Okay, I'm back! Polish residue can sometimes be difficult to see on certain colours, which as you have discovered makes it difficult to visually read when the product has broken down. Strong halogen lighting placed either side of you at an angle to the panel can help make the residue more visible, but even so, in these cases I typically have to rely on experience. If you practice on a dark panel, you will start to get a sense for when you need to change down, and the visual cues that are so important when you're learning will become less necessary. Practice also gives you an intuition about the products, and this helps creates superior results. It also allows you to adapt and cope with new situations, which is something that rigidly adhering to the rulebook does not always allow.
> 
> As for the product's reaction, it sounds like you could be over-working it before dropping speed, but I'm not certain. When the polish is 'in the zone', the machine trails should look like oily overlapping circles, which get gradually fainter as you work it. You drop speed before those trails disappear altogether in order to regenerate the lubes, and keep on refining. When I've over-worked Power Finish in the past, the lubes simply disappeared, though I haven't worked it long enough after that point to find out if it hazes if you keep on polishing.
> 
> ...


Yet again im blown away by the indepth information and the time u must have spent last night on that reply. Top man!
Thats a looong set, 30+ mins, i am spending 10-15 mins max before it was hazing so as u say it must have been the weather at the time, it was quite cold and thick cloud. One thing i do remember is when the hazy trails became apparent i poked the face of the pad and it wasnt moist, i could see product in the pores but didnt feel wet or damp?
As for my pads the white hex is the only one thats caused me any irritation but again couldv been down to those conditions. I will persevere with my pad as i do like them over others ive tried.
Does your 'set to prime the pad' count as a full set correction wise, primed with 4 blobs of product?
Heres another one i dont really know, after a set when i clean my pad, should i start the next set with the usual 3 blobs, or 4 to kind of prime again?
Also u mention u spread for 1.5 minutes, i had read in other posts that the abrasives will begin fracturing after about 30 seconds so ive litterally spread at speed 1 to cover the panel. Then jumped straight up to speed 5? i think ur term was to warm the oils the way u do it, if so ill try it your way next time. and u say i should drop the speed off before the polish goes clear? I have been dropping straight to speed 3 whereas u come down 1 speed at a time. Now im beggining to understand what having a good technique means, think ive a long way to go but ur help so far has been very informative...
I do have some non diminshing polish, gtechnic p1, but after a few attempts i gave up and bought the menz range as it was drying too quick on me, didnt like it at all but that proberbly just me not knowing how to use it correctly (technique).
Im looking forward to sunday now as i have some new ideas to try if the weather allows it, thanks to u SIR steampunk,


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## Black Widow (Apr 6, 2009)

Porta said:


> Yes, and you don't have to work it for a long time. Spread at low rpm, bump up the speed to 1500-2000 and some pressure(5-10 kilos) for the first couple of passes and then lower the pressure and rpm for the final passes. Done.


Correct!
100.000 passes (or more ) don't make sence at all.
Spread: 2 passes (900 rpm)
Correction: 4-5 passes (1500-1800 rpm)
Refine: 2-3 passes (1200 rpm) 
:wave:


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## deegan1979 (Mar 6, 2012)

Black Widow said:


> Correct!
> 100.000 passes (or more ) don't make sence at all.
> Spread: 2 passes (900 rpm)
> Correction: 4-5 passes (1500-1800 rpm)
> ...


Thats with a rotary yes? What would that translate to if using a DA mate?


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## deegan1979 (Mar 6, 2012)

Forget that last post, re read the thread so doesnt matter now, sorry


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## dave- (Nov 8, 2012)

Black Widow said:


> Correct!
> 100.000 passes (or more ) don't make sence at all.
> Spread: 2 passes (900 rpm)
> Correction: 4-5 passes (1500-1800 rpm)
> ...


You dont have to use guides like this all the time. I was using 2700 RPM today with almost no pressure with Menzerna PO 85 RE5 and finishing pad and looking into the reflection I could see what my neighbours were doing through their window about 70 meters away.


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## Dave KG (Feb 23, 2006)

Hence the word "guide" - not hard and fast rule, there to provide guidance on methods that are proven to work but everyone varies their technique to suit the paint, the ambient conditions and the results that are required... 2700 rpm on a finishing pad with a finishing polish is an interesting technique, but if it works for you then great, personally I find that although you get a great reflection from high speeds with finishing polishes, the Menzerna ones can dry a little at very high speeds cutting your work (and thus jeweling) time short. But ambient conditions will very much play their part here as well, as will set size. 

Menzerna polishes are very powerful, but like all products have their little quirks - many come a cropper with them on sticky paints where rapping the speed up high too quickly simply causes them to flash, dry and then drag the pad. Keeping the speeds down for longer at the start of the set is key in this instance to essentially coax the polish, and then work up the speed range but always keep it low to keep the temperatures low on sticky paints - I wouldn't head above 1500 rpm on a sticky paint personally. On other paints, I will take Menzerna up to 2000 rpm depending on what I am doing, varying the pad and pressure to suit. I've not really found benefit to taking the speed above 2000 with Menzerna (3M is a different story), but that is just me personally, clearly others do seem to get result at high speeds. Based on this, I'd always recommend trying lots of techniques and styles out, see what works for you - its part of the fun


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## kings.. (Aug 28, 2007)

I love menz products.... the menz pads are awesome and 3.02 just seems to work on anything it touches! My products are menz and 3M I am yet to find anything to steer me away frome these brands


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## Steampunk (Aug 11, 2011)

deegan1979 said:


> Yet again im blown away by the indepth information and the time u must have spent last night on that reply. Top man!
> Thats a looong set, 30+ mins, i am spending 10-15 mins max before it was hazing so as u say it must have been the weather at the time, it was quite cold and thick cloud. One thing i do remember is when the hazy trails became apparent i poked the face of the pad and it wasnt moist, i could see product in the pores but didnt feel wet or damp?
> As for my pads the white hex is the only one thats caused me any irritation but again couldv been down to those conditions. I will persevere with my pad as i do like them over others ive tried.
> Does your 'set to prime the pad' count as a full set correction wise, primed with 4 blobs of product?
> ...


No problem, I had fun writing/researching it! :thumb:

First, to address what may be some raised eyebrows at my set length, it was for three very distinct reasons:

(1) I was using a DA polisher, which will not impose the same friction levels on a polish as a Rotary polisher, and as such takes longer to refine diminishing abrasive products. This is why diminishing abrasives (Especially lovely, well-lubed ones like Menzerna.) are never my first choice when speed is key.

(2) I was using a closed cell pad which kept most of the lubricant on the surface of the panel, rather than absorbing it into the foam like an open-cell pad would.

(3) I adapted my technique specifically to demonstrate the effects of a long set with maximum refinement of the abrasives. You can just as easily use a more aggressive technique, and short-set the polishes to improve your efficiency if need be.

I can never get quite the same results with my first set on a fresh pad as I can in subsequent sets (Well, up to a point. Once the pad loads with paint/product the results will be reduced.), so I treat my first section as a 'priming phase'. If I'm jeweling, I will go back over that part of the panel again at a later stage to even up the gloss. After the initial phase, you don't need quite as much product, especially if you're using shorter set times. With long sets you're using practically everything the polish had to offer, but with shorter set times some lubes will still be left in the pad to play with.

Now, onto my 'spreading' technique. Diminishing abrasive polishes will begin to break down almost as soon as you put friction on them, but the time I spend in my 'spreading' phase is not wasted. I am quite quickly and linearly increasing both speed and pressure until I reach the top end of my 'Working Zone'. This helps to get the oils in the polish up to operating temperature (Just like the oil in your car.), which allows you to get the maximum work time out of the polish. This is kind of like a race car taking a warm up lap; the driver is gradually pushing the car harder and harder until all systems are at their peak, and can be relied upon to perform at their best when time is of the essence. Putting full speed/pressure on too quickly will not allow the lubricants to bed in, or as a result the abrasives to be refined as completely. Remember, friction is in proportion to speed, and the cut level is in relation to both time and pressure. Speed will break the polish down faster, but as long as the pressure is equal and set time in proportion, slow speeds can achieve the same results as high. Does this make sense?

It does sound like a combination of technique and humidity that is causing your hazing. This may sound counter-intuitive, but humidity actually causes Menzerna polishes to 'dry up' faster and haze. It also seems like you're overworking the product in each phase; you want to reduce speed _before_ the breaking point of the polish so you have something left over to refine with. If overworked the lubes won't 'regenerate' as you drop speed, and you will start to dry buff, which will induce some of its own marring.

DaveKG has it pegged when he says that there are no hard and fast rules (In life, not just in detailing.). For the pad, weather, personal preference, paint type, etc, you may need to drastically alter how you work the polish to achieve your desired results. The specifics of the set I documented are only applicable to my situation at that time, but it does demonstrate the regeneration of lubricants as speeds are gradually decreased, and how this can be used to jewel the paint to a higher gloss. I didn't know if it might help you to get a general idea for how I like to work these polishes if given some 'play time'. It'll definitely help you to get that little bit extra out of 85RE, though might no be as necessary with Power Finish unless you're trying to 1-step on soft paint.

Hopefully this helps. Again, if you have any questions, don't be afraid to ask. I hope you have fun this weekend! :buffer:

Sincerely,
Steampunk


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## Porta (Jan 3, 2007)

dave- said:


> You dont have to use guides like this all the time. I was using 2700 RPM today with almost no pressure with Menzerna PO 85 RE5 and finishing pad and looking into the reflection I could see what my neighbours were doing through their window about 70 meters away.


I have also been using RE5 on higher rpm and it works, just as you said, great.

What I described earlier in the thread about was regarding PO203S and for a one stepper. If I am using PO203S/RD3.02 for cutting then I would not refine but just go for the higher rpm and remove the defects as fast as I could.

The go for second and sometimes, wich is not common, a third step for refining.


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## j3ggo (Dec 7, 2011)

Where is the cheapest place to get 3.02 now?


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