# My car of the day, New Mercedes A45 AMG



## Soul boy 68 (Sep 8, 2013)

No sooner have Audi released their 365 bhp RS3 as the most powerful hatchback on the market, Mercedes will fight back with their own face lifted more powerful 381 bhp A45 AMG . This time Mercedes have taken the time to give some far more attention grabbing tweaks. The A45 was selling well above it's target until the arrival of the new RS3 and now it wants to regain it's crown back and now it has it back again with the worlds mightiest four - cylinder engine which will mash out 381 bhp. Instead of chipping the turbo or increasing torque, Mercedes have worked on the camshafts and valves for added power. Styling upgrades are a new front apron, new 19 inch wheels and that seems to be about it, so it does seem that performance over improved looks are the order of the day. The seven speed auto box will have improved cogs that make the car accelerate quicker. 0-60 has been improved too. The exhaust note, ESP, steering weight and throttle map have all been reworked on as well. The new AMG will go on sale in the Autumn costing £39,995. So it's now over the VW and the Golf R 400.

Like it?


----------



## 182_Blue (Oct 25, 2005)

Its a no for me


----------



## Kimo (Jun 7, 2013)

Was just about to come and smash a rare yes

Maybe not now


----------



## johanr77 (Aug 4, 2011)

Hmmmmmmm, nope.


----------



## R7KY D (Feb 16, 2010)

Mercedes - Yes 

A Class - Nope


----------



## danwel (Feb 18, 2007)

Yes please


----------



## Ben108 (Jul 26, 2014)

danwel said:


> Yes please


Likewise


----------



## robertdon777 (Nov 3, 2005)

A car that put Merc firmly at the top of the hot hatch pile at their first real attempt, gotta give them credit for that.

For car enthusiasts this hatch power race is brilliant, where else 5 years ago could you get a family hatch that would do the daily grind with ease and then at a weekend spit out a 0-100mph time of around 10secs flat.....bloody epic for the money.

On the road a supercar won't see it, get a HyperCar and they are too wide, road cars don't come quicker as standard than this or an RS3.


----------



## SPARTAN (Nov 20, 2014)

As Chuchill would say....Oooooh Yes.


----------



## cossiecol (Jun 29, 2014)

Nope, don't think so!


----------



## uruk hai (Apr 5, 2009)

Its a no from me.


----------



## bigmac3161 (Jul 24, 2013)

£39,995 for a fast shopping trolley that'll be a NO


----------



## AMG-A45 (Jun 17, 2015)

I was hoping they would put better alloys on it, they seem to have stuck with the Halfords specials !



robertdon777 said:


> On the road a supercar won't see it, get a HyperCar and they are too wide, road cars don't come quicker as standard than this or an RS3.


That explains why Mercedes has just relieved me of £430 for the first service !!!!!!!!!!!!, they think its a supercar


----------



## possul (Nov 14, 2008)

Yes.

Why the "no" people?


----------



## Starbuck88 (Nov 12, 2013)

I'm 2 minds.

It's a LOT of money, sure you do get amazing performance.

I don't like the interior and I guess they still have what looks like the stuck on sat nav screen which as per my post on the new Audi A4, i think it looks horrendous.

However...I'm sure I would squeal a giggle more than a baby watching iggle piggle if I got behind the wheel and I'm sure they are monsters to drive.

So it's a Yes from me


----------



## bigmac3161 (Jul 24, 2013)

possul said:


> Yes.
> 
> Why the "no" people?


£39,995 that's why


----------



## robertdon777 (Nov 3, 2005)

bigmac3161 said:


> £39,995 that's why


That's cheap for its breath of abilities.

Shopping car...yep
Easy in town...yep
Good on Motorway....yep
B Road blast......oooh yes
Traffic light grand prix....deffo
Discreet when needed.....Yes without the option spolier.
Noise to make you smile...yep
Fairly cheap to run too compared to other exotica (911 etc.) That will run 0-100 in 10.

Oh and all that with a 4wd drive train that copes with the worst winter, wet, crap British roads.

Bargain some might say.


----------



## Puntoboy (Jun 30, 2007)

I've test driven the current A45 AMG and it's fantastic. I proper little weapon. Launch control is amazing. It really goes like stink.


----------



## andy665 (Nov 1, 2005)

robertdon777 said:


> A car that put Merc firmly at the top of the hot hatch pile at their first real attempt, gotta give them credit for that.


for power maybe - does not take a great deal of skill to achieve that - I'd still look elsewhere for ultimate enjoyment though


----------



## possul (Nov 14, 2008)

andy665 said:


> for power maybe - does not take a great deal of skill to achieve that - I'd still look elsewhere for ultimate enjoyment though


But thats all people are after isnt it. There are less drivers on the road nowadays who look at figures and badge rather than how it drives.

For enjoyment your looking into proper sports cars and they dont fit the bill for everything.
These do, as rob said in his post.


----------



## Soul boy 68 (Sep 8, 2013)

robertdon777 said:


> That's cheap for its breath of abilities.
> 
> Shopping car...yep
> Easy in town...yep
> ...


Excellent points rob, some people would be missing the point of these types of cars, I prefer to see these cars as a bargain basement super car.


----------



## davies20 (Feb 22, 2009)

Its a no for me.

Reasons; 
1) it looks like its trying to hard to be a hot hatch.
2) I've seen enough of these in that lovely Blue colour they do to the point there simply not 'rare' enough for me.


----------



## muzzer (Feb 13, 2011)

Shaun said:


> Its a no for me


And its a no from me


----------



## Puntoboy (Jun 30, 2007)

davies20 said:


> Its a no for me.
> 
> Reasons;
> 1) it looks like its trying to hard to be a hot hatch.
> 2) I've seen enough of these in that lovely Blue colour they do to the point there simply not 'rare' enough for me.


You can order them without the full AMG body kit.

This was the one I test drove.

Untitled by Chris Jeffrey, on Flickr


----------



## davies20 (Feb 22, 2009)

Puntoboy said:


> You can order them without the full AMG body kit.
> 
> This was the one I test drove.
> 
> Untitled by Chris Jeffrey, on Flickr


Now that its very nice!

Much more subtle - good shout puntoboy :thumb:


----------



## Starbuck88 (Nov 12, 2013)

Nice to see that in Grey and not the Blue everyone seems to buy them in.


----------



## robertdon777 (Nov 3, 2005)

andy665 said:


> for power maybe - does not take a great deal of skill to achieve that - I'd still look elsewhere for ultimate enjoyment though


I do agree with this but the Hot Hatch market has never really been about all out driver involvement.

The cars they are based on have too many compromises to be Sports Cars.

But what they do do is amazing in a package that suits a lot of people.

I also wouldn't buy one (or any other hot hatch) if I was looking for pure driver involvement, a GT86/BRZ/MX5/Elise/Boxster etc (some will say these are too soft compared to say a Seven/Westfield) will always offer better handling purely because that's what they've been designed to do....But none will seat 4 passengers, some luggage and do the boring journeys quite aswell as a Hot Hatch.

The only one close to Hot Hatch and proper handling is the 135i but again..no LSD and TBH its too much of a handful on public roads being RWD for the average driver. On a damp road (the UK most the time) these Hyper Hatches need 4WD).


----------



## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

It looks too similar to the current model. Another one of those German designers. :lol:

There will also be a 400bhp S edition. 


I also agree they are too expensive. Much like most cars these days. 

I've never quite grasped why even the curent A45 was always criticised for being too expensive, when other similar cars actually cost more, yet rarely are they criticised. 

The things to like about the A45 is its rarity. They also don't have the bad image of other hot hatches.


----------



## robertdon777 (Nov 3, 2005)

Puntoboy said:


> You can order them without the full AMG body kit.
> 
> This was the one I test drove.
> 
> Untitled by Chris Jeffrey, on Flickr


With Grey or Black calipers I think that is a proper sleeper, you could put that on the drive without worrying someone's coming round with a bat to take it from you in the middle of the night...Something the RS3 can't do.


----------



## andy665 (Nov 1, 2005)

Kerr said:


> It looks too similar to the current model. Another one of those German designers. :lol:


But at least it can be excused as its a facelift rather than a new model

I do like these, without the aero kit they are very subtle which appeals - too old for the excesses that many hot hatches seem to carry nowadays (most requested by marketing departments rather than engineers)

It would probably be the hot hatch I'd choose after the Megane 275 Trophy - I'm obviously one of the few who doesn't look at the power output alone


----------



## Brian1612 (Apr 5, 2015)

For styling no, for performance hell yes. Never liked Mercedes though so if I had 40k to spend on a car, it wouldn't be one of these.

For people starting these are rare also... really? See as many of these as the Audi S3 and they are very popular up here in Scotland. I will stick with my little pocket rocket Abarths which are actually rare sights on the road and hoepfully a barrel of fun (I don't know as I haven't drove one yet!)


----------



## possul (Nov 14, 2008)

Think I prefer the non amg kit. 
For some reason I dont think of a Mercedes with that sort of styling apart from things like the brabus types!
If still love one mind and id take either of them!


----------



## Bero (Mar 9, 2008)

I would not have one with my money, but they're impressive cars, and launch amazingly well!



possul said:


> Think I prefer the non amg kit.
> For some reason I dont think of a Mercedes with that sort of styling apart from things like the brabus types!
> If still love one mind and id take either of them!


I appreciate the Aero kit is very much a Marmite option, but I think the car really needs it.

Otherwise it looks too similar to a base spec diesel. Of course that will appeal to some, but I think the canards and big wing look great.


----------



## transtek (Mar 2, 2007)

A lot of money, but I can see why a lot of people like it. But, I think the new Focus RS will be just as capable and for quite a lot less money!


----------



## Kriminal (Jan 11, 2007)

I like it, but couldn't part with that kind of cash for a hot hatch.

I'd rather spend the money on a 2nd hand car, and get more bang for my buck :thumb:


----------



## MDC250 (Jan 4, 2014)

Put me down for one, no two 

Agree with comments on the wheels, cheapens the look of the car and not a fan of it in red. The grey posted by Puntoboy does look pretty tidy though


----------



## uruk hai (Apr 5, 2009)

possul said:


> Yes.
> 
> Why the "no" people?


I don't have 40k to spend on a car but if I did there are other cars I would prefer, no doubt it'll be a epic motor and probably a thrilling drive but it's just not floating my boat.


----------



## PugIain (Jun 28, 2006)

No.
With Mercs it's E or S.


----------



## m4rkymark (Aug 17, 2014)

I quite like it but prefer it without the aero kit. I prefer the wolf in sheeps clothing look rather than look like the car fell out of halfords window, with that wing and other bits stuck on you need a baseball cap on which is back to front to look the part - with the kit on its just trying too hard.

The A45 AMG is quite rare up here in my part of Scotland, I think there is only 1 kicking about in town and it isn't blue - white seems to be the colour of preference even with the base models.


----------



## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

You're always going to have a debate about price on a car. However lots of people compare the price of used cars against new cars. You can't really do that. 

Someone has to start the cycle and buy new cars in the first place or there is no used market. 

Go out a try to buy a practical performance car for £40k and see what you come up with. 

There is still some genuine bargains on the market, such as the Focus ST. At £22k and 250bhp it seems to be a good deal in modern terms. Ever noticed they've become quite rare now? 

Bear in mind the A45 is a low volume car and is part handbuilt in the AMG factory. The engine is also fully forged. You're also baying for the Merc and AMG badges. Premium names mean premium prices. 

There is costs thay aren't apparent on the face if things. 

The new one has gone up in price, but they've added more options that were cost before. The Germans are good at leaving the tasty options off the car and you feel the need to add them. Just start adding options to other cars to align with th A45 and see how close the price really gets. 

They think the new A45 will get into the 3s barrier for 0-60mph, so you'll have bragging rights for the traffic light GP is that's your main aim. 

I'll not be tuning mine, but simple mods on the current car sees 0-60mph in very low 3s and high 7s and low 8s for 100mph. Initial acceleration is very good. 

It never seems to matter the price of a car. People who want them always seem to somehow manage. They also overlook plenty of good alternatives to get what they want.


----------



## possul (Nov 14, 2008)

Kerr did you have a 335i coupe before your a45?
What made you go down the hatchback route?


----------



## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

possul said:


> Kerr did you have a 335i coupe before your a45?
> What made you go down the hatchback route?


I did indeed.

I didn't really want to. I didn't want another 335i as I had ticked that box. Even still when you specced a new 435i well or the S4, the bill was sizeable.

I really like the look of the S3 saloon, but it wasn't as nice to drive as its brothers for some reason. Also by the time you added options to the S3 saloon, it was also a £40k car.

I tried the A45 and it just felt a bit more special and much faster. It gives that funny feeling you want. It does have quite a few flaws.

It was just something completely different and I thought I'd give it a go to see what it was like long term. I'll get 4wd and a double clutch box off my list. I still don't think either of the two of them are as important as people make out though.

There's a hole in the market after the 335i/S4 upto the M4 and RS4 where the price jumps significantly. So the only way to get performance of this level for around £40k, is either a used car, or something compromised.

The A45 should also be cheaper to run than anything with similar performance.


----------



## RisingPower (Sep 21, 2007)

I think the spoiler is absurd and i'm not sold on looks.

Reminds me a bit of what the evo was, a very quick car, very competent but not great looks and engine is a bit... dull..


----------



## Rayaan (Jun 1, 2014)

Hmm. In 2 mind about this one. Not a fan of how it looks and the interior quality for £40k but I bet it's a great drive. 

Id probably still get an M135i as I like the RWD feel and the balance is insane even if it's slower as makes no difference.


----------



## footfistart (Dec 2, 2013)

40k for an a class? I'd rather get a used sl55 or 65 for that.


----------



## alan hanson (May 21, 2008)

You cant knock what it does, see lots of A class's but few 45's, is there such thing as a rare modern car in scotland? For me i still prefer the rs3, guessing it has alot do with the rs badge and what comes with it (apprciate the amg). 

Styling wise somedays i think yes somedays i think no, funds dependant i still really like the looks of the ST over any hot hatch and would rather try and get that to 300bhp (more than enough for where i drive) and pocket the rest

Either way ill never own one, if i did get the chance im sure the wife would pipe up and say come on time to move house again:wall:


----------



## johanr77 (Aug 4, 2011)

If you're willing to wait the new Focus RS has 345hp and 4wd. It's meant to be going on the market for less than £30k too. I'd also be surprised if either the RS3 or A45 would be able to pull away from one with much ease either. Only problem I can see is that the colour choice is limited. 

If I was looking to buy a hot hatch that's where my money would be going. Lot of people will note how it doesn't have that "premium" feel that the Hun are perceived as having but I'd take the £10k I'd saved and spend it on fuel and tyres and not worry too much about not having an android tablet glued to my dash.


----------



## alan hanson (May 21, 2008)

johanr77 said:


> If you're willing to wait the new Focus RS has 345hp and 4wd. It's meant to be going on the market for less than £30k too. I'd also be surprised if either the RS3 or A45 would be able to pull away from one with much ease either. Only problem I can see is that the colour choice is limited.
> 
> If I was looking to buy a hot hatch that's where my money would be going. Lot of people will note how it doesn't have that "premium" feel that the Hun are perceived as having but I'd take the £10k I'd saved and spend it on fuel and tyres and not worry too much about not having an android tablet glued to my dash.


badge would be an issues for some i guess, its a hell of a lot for car for your money and id certainly have one but peeps look at just under 30k and think on a blue oval, sis in law has a a class 200 and its been in the garage nearly half its life......


----------



## AMG-A45 (Jun 17, 2015)

alan hanson said:


> badge would be an issues for some i guess, its a hell of a lot for car for your money and id certainly have one but peeps look at just under 30k and think on a blue oval, sis in law has a a class 200 and its been in the garage nearly half its life......


When you say been in a garage do you mean 'garage queen' or has it been in for repair?, they certainly aren't built like in the old days, I am glad mine is a company car.


----------



## Brian1612 (Apr 5, 2015)

Only thing is you certainly won't feel special driving in the new RS as they will be seen every car journey you make just about. Very common cars due to the price they are for performance, even the old model was a bargain. Still think the rear and those lights are absolutely disgusting though.


----------



## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

johanr77 said:


> If you're willing to wait the new Focus RS has 345hp and 4wd. It's meant to be going on the market for less than £30k too. I'd also be surprised if either the RS3 or A45 would be able to pull away from one with much ease either. Only problem I can see is that the colour choice is limited.
> 
> If I was looking to buy a hot hatch that's where my money would be going. Lot of people will note how it doesn't have that "premium" feel that the Hun are perceived as having but I'd take the £10k I'd saved and spend it on fuel and tyres and not worry too much about not having an android tablet glued to my dash.


We will see what the Ford comes out as. Over the last few years the RS model has been hyped to the max, then doesn't quite deliver what it said before.

The last one was nowhere near as fast people made out. My old 335i convincingly left them even though there were supposed to be nearly the same power, although proven power figures often had the Ford significantly down on claimed power. There is almost 2 seconds between their 0-100mph times.

We don't really know that much about the Ford yet, but some people say a double clutch box is vital these days. The Ford doesn't have one, so there's £2000 gone to start with. Full online command and nav are standard on the new A45. There's another £2000 if that's an option that you fancy, and many do.

So suddenly that price difference starts getting closer and closer if you want the toys, which more and more people do these days.

Then you have to account for the premium badge charges. Something that you are paying buying any German car. Obviously when you're buying an AMG, the premium gets higher still. Handbuilt fully forged engines cost a fortune.

Just about any car on the market you could pick an alternative that offers nearly as much, for less money. If everyone worked to that logic, there wouldn't be premium brand cars on the road.

I'll also guess that the emissions won't be as low putting it a tax band or two above the A45. I'd also bet the fuel consumption is also higher.

I'd also bet the normal insurance cost will be higher on the RS too.

The Ford Focus RS will always have a strong following. It will also be a car that many people wouldn't even consider.

You could save £10,000 and miss out on some items. I understand that logic.

Did you apply the same logic when buying your car? Not that many people do.


----------



## Puntoboy (Jun 30, 2007)

I like the A45 even though it's not the car for me. The test drive I had was great fun but when I got back to the dealership I really had to stand back and have a hard think. a fast hatchback just isn't for me any more.

This however is right up my street. http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/mercedes/c-class/90633/mercedes-c-450-amg-sport-2015-review

This review is slightly better than the AE one asa it goes into more detail. http://www.caradvice.com.au/340350/mercedes-benz-c450-amg-4matic-review-quick-spin/

It's not much more than the A45 (or at least I'm being told it won't be) but it has 4WD and a large boot. Plus it get's released around the time I will be changing cars next I think so it's all looking good.


----------



## m4rkymark (Aug 17, 2014)

johanr77 said:


> If you're willing to wait the new Focus RS has 345hp and 4wd. It's meant to be going on the market for less than £30k too. I'd also be surprised if either the RS3 or A45 would be able to pull away from one with much ease either. Only problem I can see is that the colour choice is limited.
> 
> If I was looking to buy a hot hatch that's where my money would be going. Lot of people will note how it doesn't have that "premium" feel that the Hun are perceived as having but I'd take the £10k I'd saved and spend it on fuel and tyres and not worry too much about not having an android tablet glued to my dash.


See I would just struggle to spend 3k on a focus never mind 30k, yep it might have a 345hp engine but it's still a focus and it's still a ford - I just don't think the quality will be there. Owning a car isn't just about what engine is under the bonnet either.


----------



## Bero (Mar 9, 2008)

Kerr said:


> Bear in mind the A45 is a low volume car and is part handbuilt in the AMG factory. The engine is also fully forged. You're also baying for the Merc and AMG badges. Premium names mean premium prices.


Perhaps a pedants point, but I believe the only thing that's built in Affalterbach is the engine. The car is built in the regular Mercedes factory including the engine installation.



footfistart said:


> 40k for an a class? I'd rather get a used sl55 or 65 for that.


Hardly a fair comparison second hand v new.

Especially looking at the SL65, you're looking at > 10 year old car and will still struggle to find one for £40k. They were also a mega low volume car, there are under 100 in the UK (compared to >1200 Ferrari 458), and they would be absolutely ruinous for running costs when ANYTHING went wrong, and probably long lead times for anything that's not a standard SL part.



johanr77 said:


> If I was looking to buy a hot hatch that's where my money would be going. Lot of people will note how it doesn't have that "premium" feel that the Hun are perceived as having but I'd take the £10k I'd saved and spend it on fuel and tyres and *not worry too much about not having an android tablet glued to my dash*.


:lol: I don't know who signed that off....but it's awful. It looks like a concept car from 15 years ago on how a 2015 will look! The new C-class is the same :wall:


----------



## Rayaan (Jun 1, 2014)

Isn't the new M2 going to be coming out? Granted its not a hot hatch but its still small, RWD and bloody rapid. We all know how BMW tend to underrate their figures lol


----------



## johanr77 (Aug 4, 2011)

m4rkymark said:


> Owning a car isn't just about what engine is under the bonnet either.


Totally agree with you and that's why I find it odd that people completely disregard Ford when they have built some really good hot hatches.


----------



## alan hanson (May 21, 2008)

AMG-A45 said:


> When you say been in a garage do you mean 'garage queen' or has it been in for repair?, they certainly aren't built like in the old days, I am glad mine is a company car.


yeh sorry for work its ben back 4-5 times now i believe shes happy as the courtesy car she has is very nice but still frustrated.

wonder about the ford comment, the current focus, do you think theres a better looking hot hatch out there for the money? all personal opinions of course but just because its a ford doesnt make logic to me. buy what you see not whats in the past or heard.

couldnt agree more paying that much cash and id want it to be all round top notch......are they....... the merc.....? cant say if the RS will or wont be as its not out. I see more Golf R than ST's and RS's


----------



## Brian1612 (Apr 5, 2015)

Quite easy to turn around and use the exact same logic about the A45 AMG at the end of the day, it is just a Mercedes A class...

For all the talk of quality and Mercedes being a premium brand, Merc's aren't exactly renowned for reliability and of all the German interiors, has the cheapest looking in my view with Audi, VW and BMW all more premium. Add to that the questionable styling of the Mercedes line-up which growing up, has never really excited me and even me, a non Ford fan would likely opt for the Focus RS over one of these if it was a choice forced upon me.


----------



## andy665 (Nov 1, 2005)

Brian1612 said:


> Quite easy to turn around and use the exact same logic about the A45 AMG at the end of the day, it is just a Mercedes A class...
> 
> For all the talk of quality and Mercedes being a premium brand, Merc's aren't exactly renowned for reliability and of all the German interiors, has the cheapest looking in my view with Audi, VW and BMW all more premium. Add to that the questionable styling of the Mercedes line-up which growing up, has never really excited me and even me, a non Ford fan would likely opt for the Focus RS over one of these if it was a choice forced upon me.


I agree - too many chintzy add ons appearing on Mercedes nowadays and the AMG Line trim level shows that they are following BMW in devaluing a sub-brand to a massive degree

Every A Class I have been in has been a massive disappointment in terms of fit / finish and refinement - I wonder how many A class owners know that the majority of them have Renault engines rattling away under the premium priced bonnets

Mercedes are losing some of their core values because they are chasing ever bigger volumes.

Should take a leaf out of Toyota's book - Akio Toyoda repeatedly states - we are not interested in being the biggest, only the most profitable


----------



## Bero (Mar 9, 2008)

andy665 said:


> I agree - too many chintzy add ons appearing on Mercedes nowadays and the AMG Line trim level shows that they are following BMW in devaluing a sub-brand to a massive degree


Audi have been milking that cow as long as BMW with their S-line cars!

Merc is late to that party...but unfortunately following suit. It's obviously a lot more profitable to package options up and charge even more from them as part of a MSort/AMG Line/SLine 'pack'.


----------



## Puntoboy (Jun 30, 2007)

Can't see the issue myself. I don't think these sport packs (I notice no one mentioned Jaguar R-Sport  ) devalue the brand at all. They are simply just sporty looking cars that aren't as sporty as the full fat variants. But that doesn't mean they are bad. Lots of people out there, like me, prefer the sporty looks but not necessarily the fuel guzzling nature of the full fat versions.


----------



## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

I've always been against these sport packs. Never been a fan of people modifiying their cars to look like the uprated model either. 

Modifying a 3 series to look like an M3, or adding twin pipes to make a 318d look like a 335d is common. 

You could make two different designs of adds ons, but most people want their car to look like the superior model rather than it looking significantly better. 

I think it does harm the brand as you often hear the frustration of owners with the big brother model. They've spent a lot of money on their car and they want others to know that. 
. 

It's like everything in life, just watching people walk about on holiday. Every other person has a pair of Ray Ban sunglasses and Ralph Lauren polos on. Without that emblem on either item, everyone would be none the wiser. However that little emblem means you are willing to pay 10x for the item and they don't like looky looky men selling fakes for £5. 

The Merc A class is an example of branding taking over. When you look on Autotrader and there is used diesel cars with price tags of over £30,000. 

However you've got the Merc badge and you've got the AMG badge due to the styling. It's a huge premium to pay for not a lot and suddenly makes the A45AMG appear not too bad.

I guess the man with the figures will see selling thousands of sport styled models to every one of the full fat models means more money.

It's clearly what people want, so they buy them at the end of the day. 

On the A class forum, most people are really positive about their cars. There isn't too many issues either from what I've seen.


----------



## m4rkymark (Aug 17, 2014)

Brian1612 said:


> Quite easy to turn around and use the exact same logic about the A45 AMG at the end of the day, it is just a Mercedes A class...
> 
> For all the talk of quality and Mercedes being a premium brand, Merc's aren't exactly renowned for reliability and of all the German interiors, has the cheapest looking in my view with Audi, VW and BMW all more premium. Add to that the questionable styling of the Mercedes line-up which growing up, has never really excited me and even me, a non Ford fan would likely opt for the Focus RS over one of these if it was a choice forced upon me.


See I prefer the styling of the merc over Audi and BMs - I just think both brands are quite stale looking - I don't like the new BMs with the bulgy bonnet look a they just look ugly and I think the interiors are really boring and dull and very basic unless you start spending lots of money I.e. A8 sport executive or something like that - I think the very latest audis have a nicer seats etc. and I quit like them but your into RSs and silly money.

As for ford - I've never been a ford man - test drove them when I was younger and I didn't like them and have never fancied a new one so to speak. The ford cars that were around when I was growing up were always rust buckets and were known for it. I've got a few fords that were built in the 1930s but they are a completely different class of car and in no way comparable to the modern ones - in fact I would rather have another one of them than spend 30k on a new one.

I got a new merc just under a year ago and the only trouble I have had is with the number plate, other than that it's never had a single issue, it drives well, gets good mileage etc. Yep it may have a Renault engine in it but what does it matter? Very few cars have parts solely from the manufacturer that sells them so not sure what the point your trying to make is. The merc for me is a daily driver - if I want something special or different to go out in I take one of my toys out - all three of them have big lazy V8s in them and are plenty fun for me - once you get to my age you don't want to be going 100mph with your hair on fire... I'm past that.


----------



## footfistart (Dec 2, 2013)

Ok then how about this. It was a bit silly about and sl so how about a five pot Ford focus RS 500. Cost less than 40k and have more toys and more power  and with the change left over increase the power further.

Tax is less, insurance is less, serving is less. And it will probably be quicker and faster than it as well plus sound better .

How's that?


----------



## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

footfistart said:


> Ok then how about this. It was a bit silly about and sl so how about a five pot Ford focus RS 500. Cost less than 40k and have more toys and more power  and with the change left over increase the power further.
> 
> Tax is less, insurance is less, serving is less. And it will probably be quicker and faster than it as well plus sound better .
> 
> How's that?


It's about as wrong as you could get. I'll give you the sound and that's about it.

They don't have more power, they have less. 350ps against 371 and 400bhp for the A45 variants.

A Focus RS500 wouldn't know where a A45AMG went on a B road and most other circumstances. It would eat it for breakfast.

There is a reason Ford have moved away from FWD for 345hp. .....

More toys in a old car??

Tax is more and insurance will also be likely more given the amount of RSs stolen.

They also look daft in matt black.


----------



## 182_Blue (Oct 25, 2005)

footfistart said:


> Ok then how about this. It was a bit silly about and sl so how about a five pot Ford focus RS 500. Cost less than 40k and have more toys and more power  and with the change left over increase the power further.
> 
> Tax is less, insurance is less, serving is less. And it will probably be quicker and faster than it as well plus sound better .
> 
> How's that?


Do you mean the old RS500 or is there a new one ?, if so it won't be as quick as the AMG , just too much power going through those front wheels.

It couldn't hold its own back in the day and things have moved on since then


----------



## m4rkymark (Aug 17, 2014)

footfistart said:


> Ok then how about this. It was a bit silly about and sl so how about a five pot Ford focus RS 500. Cost less than 40k and have more toys and more power  and with the change left over increase the power further.
> 
> Tax is less, insurance is less, serving is less. And it will probably be quicker and faster than it as well plus sound better .
> 
> How's that?


With only 98 rs500s registered in this country I suspect they are as difficult to find as sl55s.


----------



## footfistart (Dec 2, 2013)

Well it was hammering it down with rain and they all have 4wd except the focus. The new one would keep up with it due to it now having 4wd.

I still wouldn't buy a merc and they are very over priced for what they are. There are other hot hatches for a lot less money and I'd image more fun.

I can't comment on hot hatches because I own an estate.


----------



## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

footfistart said:


> Well it was hammering it down with rain and they all have 4wd except the focus. The new one would keep up with it due to it now having 4wd.
> 
> I still wouldn't buy a merc and they are very over priced for what they are. There are other hot hatches for a lot less money and I'd image more fun.
> 
> I can't comment on hot hatches because I own an estate.


The normal 300bhp Focus RS has issues in the dry. Just ask anyone just how long front tyres last when you're having a blast. It chews threw them at an alarming rate scrambling for grip.

The A45 is too much for what it is, so are most cars. However the Focus RS500 was £36,000 in 2010 which is even more expensive in today's money. Look how much more technology is in the A45.

Things have moved on a lot in the last 5 years.


----------



## Puntoboy (Jun 30, 2007)

I'd like to see an FRS do a launch with launch control... oh


----------



## Brian1612 (Apr 5, 2015)

m4rkymark said:


> See I prefer the styling of the merc over Audi and BMs - I just think both brands are quite stale looking - I don't like the new BMs with the bulgy bonnet look a they just look ugly and I think the interiors are really boring and dull and very basic unless you start spending lots of money I.e. A8 sport executive or something like that - I think the very latest audis have a nicer seats etc. and I quit like them but your into RSs and silly money.
> 
> As for ford - I've never been a ford man - test drove them when I was younger and I didn't like them and have never fancied a new one so to speak. The ford cars that were around when I was growing up were always rust buckets and were known for it. I've got a few fords that were built in the 1930s but they are a completely different class of car and in no way comparable to the modern ones - in fact I would rather have another one of them than spend 30k on a new one.
> 
> I got a new merc just under a year ago and the only trouble I have had is with the number plate, other than that it's never had a single issue, it drives well, gets good mileage etc. Yep it may have a Renault engine in it but what does it matter? Very few cars have parts solely from the manufacturer that sells them so not sure what the point your trying to make is. The merc for me is a daily driver - if I want something special or different to go out in I take one of my toys out - all three of them have big lazy V8s in them and are plenty fun for me - once you get to my age you don't want to be going 100mph with your hair on fire... I'm past that.


You obviously have your opinion and I have my own. I am 24 and growing up I have always seen Mercedes as the old mans car of all the German brands. They do some bonkers cars now but again, I don't think they are pretty nor as well built as there "premium" brand competition. Anyway, I am not a German fan per say, I have yet to drive one that has given me as much excitement as my little Abarth Punto with 180 bhp, that includes a few S models including the SQ5. That's why I stuck with the brand and have a new 595 180 bhp Competizione coming in August hopefully, even though I could have easily opted for a Golf R, TTS, Porsche or S3 

They just have something the German cars don't for me in the hot hatch sector and that's character and tons of fun, along with a real engine and exhaust note that isn't electronically enhanced, plus they are really quite a rare sight on the road, a lot more so than the hot versions of the German models.

As a little bit of info also, the new 595 Competizione will do 0-62 in 6.5s. The Biposto which is slightly lighter and has 10 more bhp does that sprint in 5.9s. Add a tuning box to the 595 which is guaranteed for 210-230 bhp and your looking at a properly quick, easily sub 6s FWD go kart  200 bhp should be all that is needed to match the Biposto's 5.9s time as really the only difference is about 60 kg, doing the power/weight calculation gives you a slightly better bhp/ton than the Biposto at 200 bhp so you can imagine that with another 10-30 bhp in there along with a stack more torque, could keep pace with many cars it shouldn't.


----------



## andy665 (Nov 1, 2005)

All I can say is thank goodness there is such a wide choice of cars out there with different sets of strengths and weaknesses that mean we can all pretty much drive what we like and what meets our requirements

Some people have to have 4wd, some people want the lowest 0-60 time, others want the highest bhp figure, some will dismiss a car purely because of who makes it whilst others will want a car purely because of the brand - just because others don't share our own very personal requirements does not mean they are wrong - just different


----------



## Bero (Mar 9, 2008)

footfistart said:


> Ok then how about this. It was a bit silly about and sl so how about a five pot Ford focus RS 500. Cost less than 40k and have more toys and more power  and with the change left over increase the power further.
> 
> Tax is less, insurance is less, serving is less. And it will probably be quicker and faster than it as well plus sound better .
> 
> How's that?


So much fail in one post!

Less toys
Less power
FWD was a compromise in the standard RS (yes i've driven one).....more power is only going to make that worse.

The price they charged was a hideous premium to the standard car, it's effectively just a standard RS with a remap...and a wrap! They were just betting that ford people will buy them due to the surge in value of the Sierra RS500 over the prior few years....and it worked!

Anyway who ever thought selling a new car with a wrap was a good idea?!?!

Tax/insurance/servicing - yes it will be less, If tax/insurance/servicing is a primary concern why not get a scooter....or a BMX would be even cheaper.

Compared to the A45, their launch is spectacular. A friend and I was at a 1/4 mile day and his 60' times where kicking the ass of a tuned R35 GTR. They get off the line like a scalded cat! MK1 RS3 are in a similar category, their 0-60 times are the same as an R8! The RS500 is 5.6 seconds.

I'm not saying it's a bad car etc etc, but it's 5 years old and was not particularly quick in 2010. Saying it has better performance than modern uber hatches is crazy.


----------



## Brian1612 (Apr 5, 2015)

I think he means if a new model RS500 comes out.... which it no doubt will.


----------



## millns84 (Jul 5, 2009)

Bero said:


> So much fail in one post!
> 
> Less toys
> Less power
> ...


You forgot to mention the sheer chav factor of the last generation RS :wave:

Bright green, a spoiler a B52 would be happy to use etc. Absolutely ideal for selling drugs out of on a council estate :lol:

Modern uber hatches have way more class. Even the last gen VXR's have more class come to think of it.


----------



## alan hanson (May 21, 2008)

you forgot the bake bean can exhaust the rear is hidious and yeh just screams 10 **** and a can of cider please, or is that just drinking energy drinks nowadays


----------



## Brian1612 (Apr 5, 2015)

You are comparing a relatively new model to a very old one though. Compared to the new Focus RS which personally I don't like design wise due to the lack of flair, it is a lot more conservative for the people consious of a car looking too sporty but personally, If I am spending the 30k+ on a hot hatch or super hot hatch, I want it to look a lot more sporty and monstrous than the current range, the A45, in fact the whole German range of hot hatches just don't do that for me. They really need to hire a new designer that has an imaginatiob and let him go wild instead of the conservative dross they keep spewing out that looks no more expensive than the lower spec models.


----------



## alan hanson (May 21, 2008)

Brian1612 said:


> You are comparing a relatively new model to a very old one though. Compared to the new Focus RS which personally I don't like design wise due to the lack of flair, it is a lot more conservative for the people consious of a car looking too sporty but personally, If I am spending the 30k+ on a hot hatch or super hot hatch, I want it to look a lot more sporty and monstrous than the current range, the A45, in fact the whole German range of hot hatches just don't do that for me. They really need to hire a new designer that has an imaginatiob and let him go wild instead of the conservative dross they keep spewing out that looks no more expensive than the lower spec models.


trouble is theres a fine line between imagination and just taccy/chavy, chucking extra body parts isnt a garunteed success just look at some celebrities they add on stuff and look like ****e 

theres also trying to hard in your face if its got the balls why does it need to shout it out?

i think the current range have it nailed on not in your face but its pretty obvious it aint a standard hatch


----------



## Bero (Mar 9, 2008)

Brian1612 said:


> I think he means if a new model RS500 comes out.... which it no doubt will.


Comparing a current car to one that does not exist, never mind have spec's confirmed, and based on a car that's only been available to order for 3 days.

I'm not so sure one will be sold, look at the history of RS500 badges.

Ford RS models: -

1969 - Ford 17m RS, Ford 20m RS
1970 - Ford Escort RS1600, Ford Capri RS2600
1973 - Ford Escort RS2000, Ford Capri RS3100
1975 - Ford Escort RS1800
1976 - Ford Escort RS Mexico, Ford Escort RS2000 Mk II
1981 - Ford Escort RS1600i
1984 - Ford Escort RS Turbo, Ford RS200
1985 - Ford Sierra RS Cosworth
* 1987 - Ford Sierra RS500 Cosworth*
1988 - Ford Sierra Cosworth
1990 - Ford Sierra Cosworth 4x4. Ford Fiesta RS Turbo
1991 - Ford Escort RS2000
1992 - Ford Escort RS Cosworth, Ford Fiesta RS1800
1994 - Ford Escort RS2000 4x4
2002 - Ford Focus RS
2009 - Ford Focus RS Mk II
* 2010 - Ford Focus RS500*
2015 - Ford Focus RS Mk III

That's not really a trend. Of course I could be entirely wrong. :thumb:


----------



## m4rkymark (Aug 17, 2014)

Brian1612 said:


> You are comparing a relatively new model to a very old one though. Compared to the new Focus RS which personally I don't like design wise due to the lack of flair, it is a lot more conservative for the people consious of a car looking too sporty but personally, If I am spending the 30k+ on a hot hatch or super hot hatch, I want it to look a lot more sporty and monstrous than the current range, the A45, in fact the whole German range of hot hatches just don't do that for me. They really need to hire a new designer that has an imaginatiob and let him go wild instead of the conservative dross they keep spewing out that looks no more expensive than the lower spec models.


As bero said once you start chucking add on's in and making a car more lairy it becomes chavvy/tacky - not everyone wants a car that looks like it's fell out of halfords window. These cars also need to represent the brand - make the wrong choice and it will harm the brand and will alienate their existing customer base. By making cars conservative and reserved they are inoffensive to the masses.


----------



## Brian1612 (Apr 5, 2015)

No doubt one of us will be  But I expect a Ford Focus RS with more pwoer again. Any official figures of the 0-62 time of the RS yet?


----------



## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

I haven't seen figures for the new RS yet. 

When it comes to 0-60mph times they are going to struggle to make top end figures due to the manual box. These double clutch boxes do help initial acceleration figures. 

Double clutch boxes also have 7 gears which a manual isn't going to have. So they are going to have a shorter ratios, or a taller top gear for cruising on the motorway. 

I've always felt too many fast Fords are vastly overrated. Some of them are pretty awful to drive, but they still have a proper dedicated following. 

The last Focus RS fell a good bit short of Ford's claims. The 163mph top speed was tested a few times and I don't think any genuine test even broke 150mph. 

Not that it really makes that much difference in the real world, but all these headline figures give bragging rights and they mean a lot to people. 

I've no doubt the new RS will be a good car. I'd also bet they sell very well too. 

Given the last RS has held its value exceptionally well, I wonder if this car will have very cheap lease deal rates?


----------



## Alex_225 (Feb 7, 2008)

Not for that money thank you.

Yes it performs brilliantly but so do plenty of other cars for that money.

Wasn't the point of a hatch back meant to be that it's fast, fun, practical and affordable??? 

It's not affordable to many so kinda pushes it out of the hot hatch leagues along with the RS3.


----------



## andy665 (Nov 1, 2005)

Alex_225 said:


> Not for that money thank you.
> 
> Yes it performs brilliantly but so do plenty of other cars for that money.
> 
> ...


Ah, the days of 205GTis and R5 GT Turbo etc - do you know what - they probably still offer more overall enjoyment than the latest hot hatches that have replaced driver input, delicacy and smiles at sensible speeds with over engineered, powerful cars that require very little skill to drive quickly

I know you can't stop progess but if we are looking at driver enjoyment - has positive progress actually been made at all?


----------



## whiteclio59 (Aug 13, 2013)

Would love to own this car but £40,000 is a bit steep!


----------



## turbosnoop (Apr 14, 2015)

andy665 said:


> Ah, the days of 205GTis and R5 GT Turbo etc - do you know what - they probably still offer more overall enjoyment than the latest hot hatches that have replaced driver input, delicacy and smiles at sensible speeds with over engineered, powerful cars that require very little skill to drive quickly
> 
> I know you can't stop progess but if we are looking at driver enjoyment - has positive progress actually been made at all?


Have to agree with some of this, prices and power levels are getting Ott. I'd rather have a car with less power but Very well engineered controls and chassis than something with lots of power, weight, and something where the chassis and actual driver controls where created in the background whilst they weren't focusing on the power train, for a change. The problem with hot hatches getting more expensive and more power, is that normal people like me risk only being able to afford the half arsed warm hatches. So if you want the nice seats, big brakes, factory bodykit, nice wheels etc that you used to get on an affordable hot hatch years ago, now you've got to fork out 1.5 to 2 times the cost, due to the power wars. Whether a car has 380 or 350 brake really wouldn't matter much to me, its just willy waving. What really matters is enjoying driving, as in, to me, a car should have the following, fast and accurate turn in, nice gear change, nice induction/exhaust noise, gorgeous looks, little body roll when cornering and enough power to feel fast. Why use a sledge hammer to crack a walnut


----------



## andy665 (Nov 1, 2005)

I think the only current hot (warm) hatch of the old school variety is the Suzuki Swift Sport - enough power to be fun, really chuckable, truly compact in size, good value for money - really good fun to drive without doing silly speeds

The problem is that many people automatically equate, bigger engine, more power, lower 0-60 times etc as better - so so wrong, what they are are bigger engines, more power, lower 0-60 times - little or none of it equates to more fun

Wss talking to a work colleague yesterday, he is a professional racing instructor, test drove for two F1 teams in the past so a seriously good driver - he said that the most fun he had when competing was in Formula Ford - similar kind of thinking isn't it


----------



## Puntoboy (Jun 30, 2007)

Abarth 500? So much fun. Reminds me of 90s hot hatches.


----------



## RisingPower (Sep 21, 2007)

Kerr said:


> I haven't seen figures for the new RS yet.
> 
> When it comes to 0-60mph times they are going to struggle to make top end figures due to the manual box. These double clutch boxes do help initial acceleration figures.
> 
> ...


Doesn't the evo x have the option of a dual clutch box too?

I mean sure, the a45 will be leagues nicer inside and I don't think many hatches compare for performance, but the evo is in the same price bracket.

But you don't see many evos these days...

I think the focus rs still looks ridiculous, but they've toned down the evo, but the a45 is going the other way?


----------



## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

RisingPower said:


> Doesn't the evo x have the option of a dual clutch box too?
> 
> I mean sure, the a45 will be leagues nicer inside and I don't think many hatches compare for performance, but the evo is in the same price bracket.
> 
> ...


The Evo does, but it's only six gears, isn't very good and they break a lot.

The other issue is the Evo is £505 road tax in the 360bhp guise, the A45 is £180. The Evo has dreadful fuel economy and you can't even nurse good figures.

Insurance is also costly for an Evo.

Subarus and Evos have had their day. They were groundbreaking many years ago, but the world has moved on and they haven't progressed.

Nobody wants high emission cars in this class.


----------



## turbosnoop (Apr 14, 2015)

andy665 said:


> I think the only current hot (warm) hatch of the old school variety is the Suzuki Swift Sport - enough power to be fun, really chuckable, truly compact in size, good value for money - really good fun to drive without doing silly speeds
> 
> The problem is that many people automatically equate, bigger engine, more power, lower 0-60 times etc as better - so so wrong, what they are are bigger engines, more power, lower 0-60 times - little or none of it equates to more fun
> 
> Wss talking to a work colleague yesterday, he is a professional racing instructor, test drove for two F1 teams in the past so a seriously good driver - he said that the most fun he had when competing was in Formula Ford - similar kind of thinking isn't it


 I can believe that, it reminds me of what in my head was the best fun driving I've ever had. I had to drive over to oxford a few years ago, it was to pick up an astra gsi turbo I was about to buy. Close(ish) to oxford I was travelling through the middle of nowhere, lots of greenery, crests and dips in the round, a mixture of tight twisting corners and open straights on a very quiet open road. The car I was driving was a mk1 ford focus zetec 1.8 16v 113bhp. It was ridiculous amounts of fun. The 200 bhp astra I drove back home was much much faster but nowhere near as much fun. It took a lot of thinking at the time to figure out why


----------



## Soul boy 68 (Sep 8, 2013)

What brilliant discussions and arguments for and against, really good read ups.:thumb:


----------



## RisingPower (Sep 21, 2007)

Kerr said:


> The Evo does, but it's only six gears, isn't very good and they break a lot.
> 
> The other issue is the Evo is £505 road tax in the 360bhp guise, the A45 is £180. The Evo has dreadful fuel economy and you can't even nurse good figures.
> 
> ...


Upkeep of an evo.

Has the world really moved on that much? If it's performance, not hugely. You can still buy that sort of performance for that price, but you know me, I'd prefer a slower, louder, big honking v8 and no 4wd 

I think the evo does understeer a fair bit though right?


----------



## robertdon777 (Nov 3, 2005)

I think there is a market for uber hot hatches like this and the rs3 but a hot hatch probably should be a bit more delicate for the average driver on UK roads.


----------



## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

RisingPower said:


> Upkeep of an evo.
> 
> Has the world really moved on that much? If it's performance, not hugely. You can still buy that sort of performance for that price, but you know me, I'd prefer a slower, louder, big honking v8 and no 4wd
> 
> I think the evo does understeer a fair bit though right?


The latest Evos weren't so bad. None of this silly 4500 mile service intervals of earlier models.

Everything has moved forward depending what way you look at things. Cars are faster, safer and do more for you.

They aren't raw and as driver orientated as they once were.

5 years ago 350-400bhp small cars were a real handful. Now you can stick most people in them and the aids do most things for them.

Evos were ways quick point to point and from starts. On the move transmission losses meant they weren't as quick as the power suggested.

The thing is now you're getting more power from cars, but not so much the costs. Subaru and Mitsubishi haven't worked out how to develop power whilst keeping economy and emissions at an acceptable level.

The latest Subaru is no faster than cars they produced 15 years ago. They are hanging about in 0-100mph times in the 13 second barrier and the A45 is 9.9secs. The newer one should further improve on that.

Years ago the Evo and Subaru were the stand out models for performance and power outside proper sports cars. Now they've got too many other models that not only beat their performance, they are much cheaper to run.

It's a hard decision to justify either these days.


----------



## RisingPower (Sep 21, 2007)

Kerr said:


> Everything has moved forward depending what way you look at things. Cars are faster, safer and do more for you.
> 
> They aren't raw and as driver orientated as they once were.


Y'see, I call that backwards 

Actually I found an evo very quick on the move, just, not that exciting.


----------



## Brian1612 (Apr 5, 2015)

Would just like to add the automatic ruins the driving experience completely, would never choose a auto over a manual regardless of how much quicker it makes the car. Proper drivers and proper drivers cars have a nice manual gearbox.


----------



## Brian1612 (Apr 5, 2015)

Although biased, the best proper hot hatch for bags of fun at reasonable prices is the A500.


----------



## robertdon777 (Nov 3, 2005)

Brian1612 said:


> Although biased, the best proper hot hatch for bags of fun at reasonable prices is the A500.


Some might say a Fiesta ST, probably what a hot hatch should be.


----------



## 182_Blue (Oct 25, 2005)

Brian1612 said:


> Would just like to add the automatic ruins the driving experience completely, would never choose a auto over a manual regardless of how much quicker it makes the car. Proper drivers and proper drivers cars have a nice manual gearbox.


Ruins it for you and of course all in your opinion


----------



## johanr77 (Aug 4, 2011)

To some extent though the proliferation of technology through all these cars is letting some mediocre to bad drivers live under the misapprehension that they can actually drive well. 

There is something to be said for losing the tail or sliding a car and having to get it back under control without the car deciding to do all the donkey work for you. I can only imagine if there wasn't all those safety gizmos in cars there would be a lot of hot hatches up trees or with brown interiors. It does concern me especially seeing some of the smashes round here lately the amount of teens to early 20 year olds driving cars with well north of 200hp who have zero clue what to do when their bad driving gets them into a position that they need to do a little more than stand on the brakes.


----------



## Bero (Mar 9, 2008)

andy665 said:


> I think the only current hot (warm) hatch of the old school variety is the Suzuki Swift Sport - enough power to be fun, really chuckable, truly compact in size, good value for money - really good fun to drive without doing silly speeds
> 
> The problem is that* many people automatically equate, bigger engine, more power, lower 0-60 times* etc as better - so so wrong, what they are are bigger engines, more power, lower 0-60 times - little or none of it equates to more fun
> 
> Wss talking to a work colleague yesterday, he is a professional racing instructor, test drove for two F1 teams in the past so a seriously good driver - he said that the most fun he had when competing was in Formula Ford - similar kind of thinking isn't it


The issue is these numbers are quantifiable and immediately rank-able. You can't brag in the pub that your car has hydraulic steering and gives great feeling........but if your car is 0.1 seconds quicker to 60 that's a fact.

As humans we like order, we've strived for all of humanity to give order and make rues for what we see.



Brian1612 said:


> Would just like to add the automatic ruins the driving experience completely, would never choose a auto over a manual regardless of how much quicker it makes the car. Proper drivers and proper drivers cars have a nice manual gearbox.


Tell that to Ferrari and Lamborghini.........or are they just 'Rich people who only care about showing off and have no idea about actually driving' 

I disagree on semi-autos ruining the driving experience, the right auto adds to the experience IMHO! I've always had manual cars (and still have one) until I bought my new car.

Especially in high power RWD cars where it eliminates the potential for locking the rear wheels under heavy breaking and aggressive downshifts.


----------



## Brian1612 (Apr 5, 2015)

Yeah, of course this is all my own personal opinion but it seems to be an opinion shared by many car reviews also. look at the Clio RS ruined by an Auto box, some cars just aren't supposed to have an Auto, any performance hatch regardless of brand should stay away from auto's, they should be exclusively for old man cars, bobbling along the motorway... 

I have driven plenty of performance cars with auto boxes including a Lambo Gallardo LP-570 and SQ5 recently and just didn't feel as involved in the driving at all, actually ruins the overall experience for me quite substantially . 

There is something about timing your gear change perfectly, kicking the clutch down, slamming the car up another gear and quickly back on the accelerator that really feels good and adds to the experience, doing it yourself and knowing you done that, not some computer or the car. No auto box will ever give that sense of reward from flicking a paddle with 1 finger, no matter the car.

Also the Fiesta ST is also another cracking hot hatch, perfect example that power isn't everything when it comes to driving pleasure, as is the A500 and Swift Sport. Shame it is a little bland to look at.


----------



## 182_Blue (Oct 25, 2005)

Personally I find changing gears overrated, i love a decent auto, so much quicker than I could ever change gears, besides you don't see Lewis Hamilton etc stirring soup when at work 



Brian1612 said:


> Yeah, of course this is all my own personal opinion but it seems to be an opinion shared by many car reviews also. look at the Clio RS ruined by an Auto box, some cars just aren't supposed to have an Auto, any performance hatch regardless of brand should stay away from auto's, they should be exclusively for old man cars, bobbling along the motorway...
> 
> I have driven plenty of performance cars with auto boxes including a Lambo Gallardo LP-570 and SQ5 recently and just didn't feel as involved in the driving at all, actually ruins the overall experience for me quite substantially .
> 
> ...


----------



## Brian1612 (Apr 5, 2015)

Lewis Hamilton is a plonker though...


----------



## m4rkymark (Aug 17, 2014)

johanr77 said:


> To some extent though the proliferation of technology through all these cars is letting some mediocre to bad drivers live under the misapprehension that they can actually drive well.
> 
> There is something to be said for losing the tail or sliding a car and having to get it back under control without the car deciding to do all the donkey work for you. I can only imagine if there wasn't all those safety gizmos in cars there would be a lot of hot hatches up trees or with brown interiors. It does concern me especially seeing some of the smashes round here lately the amount of teens to early 20 year olds driving cars with well north of 200hp who have zero clue what to do when their bad driving gets them into a position that they need to do a little more than stand on the brakes.


I agree - lets go back to drum brakes and steering boxes, no air con, no radios, sprung seats etc. Etc.

Joking aside... I genuinely agree modern cars have too many mod cons and people feel invincible in them, they are too comfortable - also think it's too easy to do 100mph in them and have no idea what's going on around them.


----------



## Alex_225 (Feb 7, 2008)

andy665 said:


> I know you can't stop progess but if we are looking at driver enjoyment - has positive progress actually been made at all?


Exactly the discussion I had with some mates in the pub last night. Ok so hot hatches now days are faster than ever but are they more fun??

Take my RS Twingo, weights about a tonne, 133bhp n/a engine that you can drive on its limits without imminent death if it all goes a bit awry!

The RS3 and AMG are hot hatches by definition but they're mini versions of big old bruisers!! I'm sure they're great cars but if I want a more primitive, direct hot hatch experience I'm not sure if pick them.

I'd say the current Fiesta ST defines a hot hatch more than any other right now as it has the classics ingredients.


----------



## Andyg_TSi (Sep 6, 2013)

Alex_225 said:


> Exactly the discussion I had with some mates in the pub last night. Ok so hot hatches now days are faster than ever but are they more fun??
> 
> Take my RS Twingo, weights about a tonne, 133bhp n/a engine that you can drive on its limits without imminent death if it all goes a bit awry!
> 
> ...


I agree,

Without question the new hot hatches are better in terms of comfort, driver aids, technology & safety equipment and have more powerful engines...BUT do they have the same way of putting a massive smile on your face like the hot hatches of say the 80's and 90's.

If you were drive say a new RS3 and a Sorted Sierra/Escort RS Cosworth back to back......which one would leave you feeling like you've had the better driving experience??


----------



## 182_Blue (Oct 25, 2005)

Andyg_TSi said:


> I agree,
> 
> Without question the new hot hatches are better in terms of comfort, driver aids, technology & safety equipment and have more powerful engines...BUT do they have the same way of putting a massive smile on your face like the hot hatches of say the 80's and 90's.
> 
> If you were drive say a new RS3 and a Sorted Sierra/Escort RS Cosworth back to back......which one would leave you feeling like you've had the better driving experience??


Or is it an example of rose tinted glasses ?, a while back i drove an escort cosworth and it was OK but not as i remember and it was so dated on the inside, noisey (not in a good way), it crashed around and the brakes were not good, all in it left me feeling a bit sad and probably felt slower than my old Focus st !, i suspect if you tried one of your heroes these days some people may feel exactly the same.


----------



## RisingPower (Sep 21, 2007)

Shaun said:


> Or is it an example of rose tinted glasses ?, a while back i drove an escort cosworth and it was OK but not as i remember and it was so dated on the inside, noisey (not in a good way), it crashed around and the brakes were not good, all in it left me feeling a bit sad and probably felt slower than my old Focus st !, i suspect if you tried one of your heroes these days some people may feel exactly the same.


But cars should be noisy. Christ f1 is now quiet, imagine if le mans or nascar ends up that way.

Cars should be involving, otherwise you may just have any lump of car.


----------



## RisingPower (Sep 21, 2007)

Shaun said:


> Personally I find changing gears overrated, i love a decent auto, so much quicker than I could ever change gears, besides you don't see Lewis Hamilton etc stirring soup when at work


I guess it depends on how good the box is. You certainly don't want the box hesitating and telling you what to do. If you can hold onto a gear and still keep sideways...

Full sequential box is what I want


----------



## 182_Blue (Oct 25, 2005)

RisingPower said:


> But cars should be noisy. Christ f1 is now quiet, imagine if le mans or nascar ends up that way.
> 
> Cars should be involving, otherwise you may just have any lump of car.


By noisy i mean the chassis banged and crashed, it wasn't good, some people need to try one of the legendary 80s hatchbacks and see if the rose tints still fit :wave:


----------



## RisingPower (Sep 21, 2007)

Shaun said:


> By noisy i mean the chassis banged and crashed, it wasn't good, some people need to try one of the legendary 80s hatchbacks and see if the rose tints still fit :wave:


Maybe  But I find refinement boring.

The box in the gallardo e gear was amazing though, keep power on and change, no hesitation.


----------



## Puntoboy (Jun 30, 2007)

Someone used a good term earlier in this thread that I think works here. Uber Hatches are the likes of the RS3 and A45. Hot Hatches are the Fiesta STs, Abarth 500 etc.


----------



## RisingPower (Sep 21, 2007)

Puntoboy said:


> Someone used a good term earlier in this thread that I think works here. Uber Hatches are the likes of the RS3 and A45. Hot Hatches are the Fiesta STs, Abarth 500 etc.


Uber? Really? I don't see what's uber about them?


----------



## Puntoboy (Jun 30, 2007)

RisingPower said:


> Uber? Really? I don't see what's uber about them?


In comparison to the standard hatch back. Just like Super cars are now superseded by hyper cars.


----------



## RisingPower (Sep 21, 2007)

Puntoboy said:


> In comparison to the standard hatch back. Just like Super cars are now superseded by hyper cars.


So where do you draw the line now? Golf r? Megane 275 trophy? Golf r 400?

There's really not a massive line between them. In fact iirc the slower in a straight line megane leaves the r for dead around corners.

Between a hyper car like an agera or a supercar like a gallardo there is a massive difference generally.


----------



## Puntoboy (Jun 30, 2007)

It was just an idea


----------



## RisingPower (Sep 21, 2007)

Puntoboy said:


> It was just an idea


Maybe this though?


----------



## RisingPower (Sep 21, 2007)

Bero said:


> Especially in high power RWD cars where it eliminates the potential for locking the rear wheels under heavy breaking and aggressive downshifts.


But how do you get sideways then?


----------



## Soul boy 68 (Sep 8, 2013)

RisingPower said:


> Maybe this though?
> 
> VW Golf GTI W12-650 - YouTube


Excellent, thanks for posting this, awesome beast and looks fun to drive. :thumb::car:


----------



## robertdon777 (Nov 3, 2005)

Shaun said:


> By noisy i mean the chassis banged and crashed, it wasn't good, some people need to try one of the legendary 80s hatchbacks and see if the rose tints still fit :wave:


A 205 GTi , R5 GT are still very supple and forgiving even compared to modern hatches, more so than a Fiesta ST.

A good one isn't bangy or crashy at all. I think the later era of hot hatches started to get too firm and ran much too low profile tires ruining the ride.

They are getting better because of the optional damper settings.


----------



## andy665 (Nov 1, 2005)

I had an interesting experience early this evening. I had hired a Fiat 500 for the day, no idea what spec, little four pot petrol, revved nicely, decent alloys etc. Last 40 miles home was across country, few miles of dual carriageway but mainly winding country roads.

Got behind a last generation Audi S3, whilst clearly a lot faster, grippier than the 500, once other traffic was brought into play he could not shake me off, I had to really work at keeping up but I managed it

We pulled in to the same petrol station near my destination, S3 driver nodded on my direction and summed it up nicely "You looked as if you were having a lot more fun than I was"

Maintaining momentum is more challenging and more enjoyable than simply pressing an accelerator and powering away


----------



## Andyg_TSi (Sep 6, 2013)

One of the best handling, cars I've ever owned wasn't even classed as a hot hatch, but it had just enough power and was an absolute joy to drive and put a huge grin on my face every time I had a 'spirited' drive in it......

Ford Puma 1.7vct

Absolutely epic on a B road blast, handled like it was on rails.

I'd love an FRP even now!.


----------



## turbosnoop (Apr 14, 2015)

andy665 said:


> Maintaining momentum is more challenging and more enjoyable than simply pressing an accelerator and powering away


 So true! I also think things like steering feel, gear change, brakes that arent over (or under imo) served, induction/exhaust noise also add to the fun (amongst others). 
This is why I drive an fn2 ctr , I could've easily bought an astra vxr or something similar, but I don't care about being 0.x seconds quicker to 60, I'll take the car that gives me the best driving experience


----------



## andy665 (Nov 1, 2005)

turbosnoop said:


> So true! I also think things like steering feel, gear change, brakes that are over (or under imo) served, induction/exhaust noise also add to the fun (amongst others).
> This is why I drive an fn2 ctr , I could've easily bought an astra vxr or something similar, but I don't care about being 0.x seconds quicker to 60, I'll take the car that gives me the best driving experience


Good friend of mine had a new E46 M3 - sold if after 6 months and replaced it with an EP3 Type R - he was quite correct in his statement - "The M3 is only fun at stupid speeds and I risk killing myself, killing someone else or getting banned - you pilot the M3 but have to drive the Type R to get the best out of it - but that makes it more challenging and more fun"


----------



## Bero (Mar 9, 2008)

Andyg_TSi said:


> I agree,
> 
> Without question the new hot hatches are better in terms of comfort, driver aids, technology & safety equipment and have more powerful engines...BUT do they have the same way of putting a massive smile on your face like the hot hatches of say the 80's and 90's.
> 
> If you were drive say a new RS3 and a Sorted Sierra/Escort RS Cosworth back to back......which one would leave you feeling like you've had the better driving experience??


I would imagine eras old Cosworths would feel rather agricultural and very slow. I don't mean they wont be fun, but may leave you wanting more.



Puntoboy said:


> Someone used a good term earlier in this thread that I think works here. Uber Hatches are the likes of the RS3 and A45. Hot Hatches are the Fiesta STs, Abarth 500 etc.


(C) Bero :lol:



RisingPower said:


> Uber? Really? I don't see what's uber about them?


I just mean step changes in power, and price above some other cars in hot hatch category. £45k cars with >350bhp...with VW and Merc looking at 400bhp+ in the next generation.



RisingPower said:


> But how do you get sideways then?


The car very much goes sideways! Powering through and out a corner with opposite lock is great fun. Losing the back end with an aggressive manual gear change while braking for a corner is definitely not fun!

I hired a TVR Sagaris with a friend a few years ago and did 1200miles in it. A fantastic car, and awesome fun, but not practical as a daily driver....and you're certainly not able to push on in wet /dry weather in the same manner as a modern high power RWD car.


----------



## RisingPower (Sep 21, 2007)

Bero said:


> Losing the back end with an aggressive manual gear change while braking for a corner is definitely not fun!


Sounds like you need to work on your gear changes


----------



## turbosnoop (Apr 14, 2015)

andy665 said:


> Good friend of mine had a new E46 M3 - sold if after 6 months and replaced it with an EP3 Type R - he was quite correct in his statement - "The M3 is only fun at stupid speeds and I risk killing myself, killing someone else or getting banned - you pilot the M3 but have to drive the Type R to get the best out of it - but that makes it more challenging and more fun"


That's good to hear. VTEC is so much fun. I think because you don't normally get to use it, when you get the chance its so enjoyable, and the noise it makes in the fn2 ctr is intoxicating. You also get a vtec indicator and shift lights. God bless Honda


----------



## 182_Blue (Oct 25, 2005)

We have gone off topic somewhat, could we please try to get back to the AMG.


----------

