# Holograms & Menz Final Finish



## weemax (Sep 30, 2008)

Hi all...

Still a total noob with my Kestral. :buffer: lol

I have some holograms from a previous kestrel attempt (in the shape of lines?) on my car & im just wondering if done PROPERLY, would Final Finish on a finishing pad ALWAYS remove holograms?

Im almost certain the holograms are there from working too big of an area at one time.

what is the best speed do you find to work final finish on a finishing pad? 5? and how long should it *roughly* take to fully work the area of 12" x 12"?

Thanks guys, gonna sort the 'grams once & for all!

Thanks peeps :thumb:


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## DCR (Sep 12, 2008)

whilst polishing my car yesterday, i found that Menz FF combined with a Sonus SFX2 pad was enough to take out holograms left by Power Gloss and an SFX1 pad. Didnt take as much working as the correctional stage.

As for how long it shoudl take - i think that depends largely on the paint


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## weemax (Sep 30, 2008)

Cheers m8, i had been using final finish on an sfx3 pad, i think ill give the final finish a go on the sfx 2 pad like you did m8. Something with a bit more "bite" as they say. 

To be honest & as stupid as it sounds, i didnt actually think of trying the FF on the SFX2 pad, so thanks you for that m8 

Oh, & its VW paint!


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## VIPER (May 30, 2007)

You can work on an area a bit larger than 12"x12" as well - roughly double that as it'll take you ages just doing 1 sq ft at a time. The holograms might been caused by moving the machine around a bit too quickly as well (which is a common and natural thing to inadvertantly do if too large an area is attempted). 
Try and keep the machine moving at about 1-2 inches per second and have a set pattern in mind (like the one Dave KG's illustrated on here somewhere) to ensure that the whole of the area you're working on gets the same polishing duration at as close to the same time as you can. By that I mean that the polish will go through stages as it gets worked and the abrasives get broken down, so with a predetermined pattern, the whole of your work area will be exposed to the polish at roughly the same time, if that makes sense.


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## empsburna (Apr 5, 2006)

What speed are you working it on?

Spread/Work/Refine times?


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## weemax (Sep 30, 2008)

@ Pit Viper - hi m8 Thats what i thought.. lol that it would take me ages at 12" x 12". Ill see how i go on the next good day with the FF on SFX2, so thanks everyone for the help - it is greatly appreciated.

@MidsDetailing - Hi m8 

Spread - 3
Work - 5
Refine - you got me there!??????

I dont think i do refine it??


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## JohnWoods41 (Aug 20, 2008)

weemax said:


> @ Pit Viper - hi m8 Thats what i thought.. lol that it would take me ages at 12" x 12". Ill see how i go on the next good day with the FF on SFX2, so thanks everyone for the help - it is greatly appreciated.
> 
> @MidsDetailing - Hi m8
> 
> ...


Im assuming this is a DA? not Rotary?


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## VIPER (May 30, 2007)

JohnWoods41 said:


> Im assuming this is a DA? not Rotary?


I was assuming we were talking a DAS-6 as well.


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## weemax (Sep 30, 2008)

Yes, sorry guys, i didnt make that clear its a DAS-6.


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## Dave KG (Feb 23, 2006)

Personally, I would not go much above the work area of 1' square, if above it at all - yes it will take ages, _but_ on many paints the results will be significantly better. Doubling the work area, IMO, is too much by DA. Working smaller areas increases the work time (in passes) on that area and breaks the polishes down better offering better correction and finish... Now its not correction you are chasing so to that end you are not interested and could increase the work area. But, you will also loose the quality of finish as well - some paints are very sensitive to finishing abrasives, if you do not work them correctly they will leave light marring in the finish that can just take the edge of the clarity that could have been achieved. Keep your work area small and you will get the most out of what the polish has to offer on a DA polisher, irrespective of the paint you use it on. If you try bigger areas, it may work just fine on some paints but on others it may be the difference between ultimate clarity and gloss and a slightly off finish. The key is just to take as long as it needs 

As for working times, I find around three to five minutes at speed 6 (no need for a refining stage by DA) on a 1' square area works wonders - achieves the correction but also it a cracking finish by ensuring the abrasives are well broken down and you get the maximum out of what they have to offer


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## empsburna (Apr 5, 2006)

weemax said:


> Yes, sorry guys, i didnt make that clear its a DAS-6.


Ah, OK.

Carry on, as you all were!


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## VIPER (May 30, 2007)

When I said double it I meant to about 24" by 12" not in both directions equating to 4 sq ft - that would be too much. I've always worked on larger than 1 sq ft with finishing polishes and it's always been fine. Guess we'll have to agree to disagree, Dave


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## Dave KG (Feb 23, 2006)

Pit Viper said:


> When I said double it I meant to about 24" by 12" not in both directions equating to 4 sq ft - that would be too much. I've always worked on larger than 1 sq ft with finishing polishes and it's always been fine. Guess we'll have to agree to disagree, Dave


You can work larger areas in a lot of cases, though I have started handling a fee folks' issues with softer paint types using particular abrasives such as #80 and Menz ceramiclear where normal techniques were resulting in micromarring... this was because of the soft paint and the abrasives not being fully worked by DA, and the reduction in work area allows better working of the abrasives... My recommendation of 1' square is thus a "catch-all" recommendation as it takes into account the possibility of issues arising on certain paint types.

By all means, folks can use the larger working areas and if it works, great - the polishing time is reduced... But one should be aware that the increase of working area does result on some softer paints in micromarring and more generally a reduction in the working of the abrasives (which may or may not be shown on a particular paint type), and thus should be very aware of it and what they are looking for.


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## Bigpikle (May 21, 2007)

not sure I have ever seen holograms from a DA polishing session, but you might get the micro marring that Dave talks about above.

I would stick to smaller areas by DA as you want to make sure you are getting enought pressure and work time to fully correct the paint and break down the polish, and that is certainly easier if you are not covering a big area. It also reduces the chance of picking up unworked polish from one spot and suddenly rubbing it all over your section IMHO.

Most paints need some good pressure to get the full correction, and that is easier to achieve consistently in smaller areas IMHO.


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## VIPER (May 30, 2007)

Bigpikle said:


> not sure I have ever seen holograms from a DA polishing session, but you might get the micro marring that Dave talks about above.
> 
> I would stick to smaller areas by DA as you want to make sure you are getting enought pressure and work time to fully correct the paint and break down the polish, and that is certainly easier if you are not covering a big area. It also reduces the chance of picking up unworked polish from one spot and suddenly rubbing it all over your section IMHO.
> 
> *Most paints need some good pressure to get the full correction, and that is easier to achieve consistently in smaller areas IMHO*.


Oh, I agree totally, Damon :thumb: but just addressing the OP's specific problem of hologram removal, and _not_ the initial correction stage, I still think he could expand the working area to a bit more than 1 sq ft. If he was asking about more general swirl removal, then of course, the smaller the better :thumb:


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## Dave KG (Feb 23, 2006)

Bigpikle said:


> not sure I have ever seen holograms from a DA polishing session, but you might get the micro marring that Dave talks about above.
> 
> I would stick to smaller areas by DA as you want to make sure you are getting enought pressure and work time to fully correct the paint and break down the polish, and that is certainly easier if you are not covering a big area. *It also reduces the chance of picking up unworked polish from one spot and suddenly rubbing it all over your section IMHO.*
> 
> Most paints need some good pressure to get the full correction, and that is easier to achieve consistently in smaller areas IMHO.


This is another very good reason for keeping the work area small (the same should be applied to the avoidance of picking up rotary splatter). This will not only affect correction, it will be most detrimental to the overall finish as picking up unbroken down abrasives will lead to inflicted marring from the machine polisher... I would say that 50% of my reasoning for small working areas is to ensure quality of overall finish, not correction - ie, ensuring the abrasives correctly worked to avoid inflicted micromarring which applies just as much to correction polishes as it does to finishing polishes.

However, I do stress that this is only my personal technique and what I recommend to folks based on my experience and dealing with specific problems encountered on some paint types. Other people's working techniques will differ.


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## weemax (Sep 30, 2008)

Ok guys, thanks very mujch for the help! 

Bikpickle, i notice you said you have never seen holograms from DA? Has anyone?

@ Dave KG, would you recommend FF on an SFX2 4" spot pad worked 12" x 12" @ speed 6?


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## VIPER (May 30, 2007)

Any specific reason you're using a 4" spot pad?


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## weemax (Sep 30, 2008)

Not really m8, just find it easier to work on a smaller area & easier worked with on the lower half of the car? 

I shouldnt really use a 4" pad though - should i? Go back to the bigger pad?


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## Dave KG (Feb 23, 2006)

There's no problems with using a 4" pad if you feel more comfortable with it, but it is slightly more aggressive by DA than a 6" pad - but ultimately use what is comfortable.

Try FF on an SFX-3 pad if you are just knokcing out micromarring, its a soft pad but will still offer a little cut with FF and its likely all you'll need and it will work the polish to completion also to gurantee a a good finish.


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## VIPER (May 30, 2007)

weemax said:


> Not really m8, just find it easier to work on a smaller area & easier worked with on the lower half of the car?
> 
> I shouldnt really use a 4" pad though - should i? Go back to the bigger pad?


In that case then, definitely stick to the 12"x12" area. I was assuming you were working with 6/6.5" pads when I said you could go a little larger. With a 4" pad then a square foot is more than enough. 
As Dave says, go with what feels best for you, as if you're more comfortable, then you'll be more confident and, ultimately, more likely to acheive a better result.


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## needhampr (Feb 13, 2006)

I've just been trying various pads & polishes to remove very minor swirling on my Golf over the past few days. After trying several combinations I have found the most effective to be using Menzerna 106FA on a Menz orange polishing pad. I keep the work area down to about a 1' square area. I apply the polish and spread at speed 1 (Kestrel DA). I then increase speed to 3/4 for a couple of minutes before cranking up to speed 5 for a further 3-4 minutes. Working under halogens I was finding that the polish dried out a bit quick on 6. 
Virtualy all swirls were removed and only slightly deeper marks required a further hit to achieve 100% correction. I initially tried using Megs and Sonus finishing pads but they didn't seem to offer any correction from the polish. although the larger pads did make handling the machine a little easier.
The Menz polishing pads do feel initially very firm but they do soften up. I would recommend soaking them in warm water for a few minutes and allowing them to dry thoroughly before use. This softens them further.


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## Dave KG (Feb 23, 2006)

needhampr said:


> I've just been trying various pads & polishes to remove very minor swirling on my Golf over the past few days. After trying several combinations I have found the most effective to be using Menzerna 106FA on a Menz orange polishing pad. I keep the work area down to about a 1' square area. I apply the polish and spread at speed 1 (Kestrel DA). I then increase speed to 3/4 for a couple of minutes before cranking up to speed 5 for a further 3-4 minutes. Working under halogens I was finding that the polish dried out a bit quick on 6.
> Virtualy all swirls were removed and only slightly deeper marks required a further hit to achieve 100% correction. I initially tried using Megs and Sonus finishing pads but they didn't seem to offer any correction from the polish. although the larger pads did make handling the machine a little easier.
> The Menz polishing pads do feel initially very firm but they do soften up. I would recommend soaking them in warm water for a few minutes and allowing them to dry thoroughly before use. This softens them further.


This is exactly the kind of technique I would use on a DAS-6, and as you've found, you dont always need aggressive polishes for correction on VAG paint _if_ you use the lighter ones correctly


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## weemax (Sep 30, 2008)

would you always give a "spritz" of last touch or something on the pad for lube before you start?

Or would you "spritz" at times through the polishing process? Or do you only do it if the polish dries out?

Or do you never do it?

cheers guys, really appreciate the help today, so many little niggly questions that i know sound silly, but id like to know 

Thanks!


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## needhampr (Feb 13, 2006)

I believe some spritz the pad lightly with water but I think it depends on the ambient temperature & type of polish. I have found the Menz piloshes to be generally quite oily so on the whole OK. SRP by machine does dry out quickly and may benefit from some water / QD perhaps?


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## weemax (Sep 30, 2008)

cheers for that m8, will have another in a few days & will post up my findings....

So THANKS to EVERYONE who replied


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## eddiel34 (Mar 22, 2008)

I've yet to use my DAS-6 and am loving this thread. I too would appreciate a little advice on pads. I own a solid Candy white SEAT Leon. I have bought 

1 x Menzerna Intensive Polish (Power Finish) PO85RD3.02 - 1 litre
1 x Menzerna Final Finish PO85RD - 1 litre
1 x menzerna Power Gloss S34A - 250ml

1 x Sonus SFX-1 6" Restore Pad
1 x Sonus SFX-2 6" Enhance Pad
1 x Sonus SFX-3 6" Final Finish Pad

My car is 1yr old and looks swirl free due to being white but in the right light I can see them. The door pillars and wing mirrors are Black and this is where the marring is most evident. I also think this is where I will find it most difficult to polish due to it being a small area.

Which combinations do you recommend to start with and to finish.


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## needhampr (Feb 13, 2006)

I wpould start with the lightest combination which in your case would be the finishing pad and finishing polish. I suspect that you may need to step up to a polishing pad but still using the finishing polish which is what I had to use on my Golf with extremely light swirls. It may need a couple of hits with DA but better to work with a lighter polish if you can.


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## weemax (Sep 30, 2008)

By "HITS" or "PASSES" i take it this means, fully working the polish in, buffing off, IPA etc & then starting again?


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## caledonia (Sep 13, 2008)

Hits = One application of polish fully worked.

Pass = the area of work. Worked in one direction. Either Left to right or Up and down. So that the Polish has been worked over the area concerned. ETC. move the machine from left to right then back over the above area, making sure you have a good over lapping motion. in the opposite direction till your work area is completely work. This is one pass. But you will find you have to do numerous passes to fully work the polish.

Gordon.


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## organgrinder (Jan 20, 2008)

caledonia said:


> Hits = One application of polish fully worked.
> 
> Pass = the area of work. Worked in one direction. Either Left to right or Up and down. So that the Polish has been worked over the area concerned. ETC. move the machine from left to right then back over the above area, making sure you have a good over lapping motion. in the opposite direction till your work area is completely work. This is one pass. But you will find you have to do numerous passes to fully work the polish.
> 
> Gordon.


And from the number of times you have been up to see Dave KG recently, you should know!

John


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## caledonia (Sep 13, 2008)

:lol: How are you getting on with that lovely car of yours. Have you finished it yet.??


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## organgrinder (Jan 20, 2008)

All done bar the roof. The paint is hard as nails and I found if I wanted to get rid of the few RDS completely I had to go to a light cutting pad and something like power gloss which left its own marring.

In the end I just used a polishing pad and 106FF and it has turned the finish to glass - not 100% perfect but plenty good enough with only me knowing where the small imperfections are. Now topped up with a few coats of Zaino and it looks great.

I have actually spent more time doing other people's cars since Dave KG's excellent class. I can't stress strongly enough how much confidence and understanding Dave gave me in his tuition day and I will now tackle problems I would just have left before.


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## weemax (Sep 30, 2008)

Guys, just one more! lol

What is the ideal amount of polish to use on a 135mm pad for a 12"x12" area?

Many thanks!


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## [email protected] (Aug 6, 2008)

Depends on the surface condition, polish type, pad type...

But, normally I use 2-3 skittle size of product.


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## organgrinder (Jan 20, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> Depends on the surface condition, polish type, pad type...
> 
> But, normally I use 2-3 skittle size of product.


For the first use of a clean pad though a very light spray of QD and a 2 to 3 inch strip of polish (like you would get out of a toothpaste tube) across the middle. Dab it around the area to be polished with machine off, then, on low speed, spread it over your working area evenly before increasing speed to work the polish.

You only do the strip of polish for first use. 2 skittle sized blobs are all you need for each section after that (and your 1 square foot area will probably grow to 2 sq ft but don't get too hung up on that - just make sure you work the polish in properly).


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