# Detailer Academy Our Training



## carrera2s (Jun 28, 2009)

Started our training today with Dave Bowerman (Sportscar Protection) on a 2000 mondeo ST200 in performance blue.
1. Jetwashed
2. Snow foamed
3. Jetwashed
4. Bilberyed the wheels
5. Dryed the car inside as raining
6. Clayed 
7. Cleaned the inside
8. Removed the leather seats
9. Redyed centre part of the seats blue front and back

Carrying on tomorrow with full paint detail. cant wait!:thumb:


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## carrera2s (Jun 28, 2009)

Full paint correction carried out on 10 year old Merc A class over 2 days the transformation was amazing using DA and Rotary! Under stand now how it can take 30 hours to fully correct paint when in very poor condition and leave it looking better than new!!
Starting full paint correction on a Ferrari 360 will post pics soon!:thumb:


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## Auto Finesse (Jan 10, 2007)

This thread is useless with out pics


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## m33porsche (Jun 10, 2007)

Like the idea of a detailing acadamy - could do with advancing my amateur skills!

Indeed - pics would be good - lets see the before and afters


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## carrera2s (Jun 28, 2009)

4 days left on course so will post all pics next week:thumb:


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## carrera2s (Jun 28, 2009)

Here are some pics as promised, there are still more to come after next week. 
In the last 2 weeks, we have carried out Full Paint Correction on ; 
Porsche 997 Carrera S Cab ( Pics Included )
Mercedes A Class ( Pics Included )
Mondeo ST200 Redyed centre part of the seats blue front and back ( Pics Included )
Bentley Continental Gt ( Pics Coming Soon ) 
Ferrari 360 Modena ( Pics Coming Soon ) 

Pics Below....


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## Auto Finesse (Jan 10, 2007)

Where are these pics ????


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## carrera2s (Jun 28, 2009)




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## carrera2s (Jun 28, 2009)

Mondeo ST200 Leather Seat, Refurb and Recolour


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## carrera2s (Jun 28, 2009)

Carrera S Cab


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## carrera2s (Jun 28, 2009)

Hope you enjoy , first time posting pictures... Sure i will improve


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## Bigpikle (May 21, 2007)

is the wearing of stupid hats essential in building your detailing skills, or is it simply something Dave encourages?

I must admit to loving the business model where people pay YOU to detail your customers cars for you. Hats off the guys that made that work - pure genius 

Looks like you're getting a lot of experience there guys :thumb:


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## Braz11 (Aug 28, 2009)

Awsome Pictures! cant wait for more of the Detailing Academy ( Sportscar Protection )


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## Braz11 (Aug 28, 2009)

haha ! we just blame our hats on the Extremly Cold Weather, and abit of Daves encouragement


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## carrera2s (Jun 28, 2009)

The hats kept us warm it was freezing!:thumb:


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## DE 1981 (Aug 17, 2007)

So what involved in the training then?

The leather re colouring looks very good.


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## carrera2s (Jun 28, 2009)

Detail Ecosse said:


> So what involved in the training then?
> 
> The leather re colouring looks very good.


See sportscar protection website for info:thumb:


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## -tom- (Jan 27, 2009)

ouch price tag of 2k:doubleshoby the looks then it worth it.


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## rds1985 (Mar 7, 2009)

porker looks mint


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## Auto Finesse (Jan 10, 2007)

tom_k said:


> ouch price tag of 2k:doubleshoby the looks then it worth it.


Id not teach someone the tricks of my trade for two weeks for less,


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## Sportscar Protection (Feb 17, 2006)

Here you go here's some pics of the bentley we did :thumb:


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## billybob9351 (Feb 14, 2008)

sorry to be rude how mch did the course cost and where is it based


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## -Kev- (Oct 30, 2007)

billybob9351 said:


> sorry to be rude how mch did the course cost and where is it based


http://www.sportscarprotection.com/da/index.html


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## Sportscar Protection (Feb 17, 2006)

billybob9351 said:


> sorry to be rude how mch did the course cost and where is it based


The full professional detailing course costs £2000 , I prefer to work on real cars as opposed to panels so we work on my customers cars during the course.
I try to base it as close to home as possible for you but occasionally there might be a bit of traveling :thumb:


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## carrera2s (Jun 28, 2009)

*TVR Wheels Refurb & Respray*

More training our TVR Wheels, Refurbed and Resprayed In White. :thumb:
...








L]


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## carrera2s (Jun 28, 2009)

...


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## carrera2s (Jun 28, 2009)

...


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## carrera2s (Jun 28, 2009)

...


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## carrera2s (Jun 28, 2009)

...


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## carrera2s (Jun 28, 2009)

...


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## Ollie_Escort (May 5, 2008)

Whereabouts is the academy based?


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## carrera2s (Jun 28, 2009)

See previous thread sportscar protection!:thumb:


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## alan_mcc (Oct 28, 2008)

:doublesho


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## chisai (Jan 1, 2009)

^^^^^^I was thinking that looked a bit too heavy on one edge!!


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## *MAGIC* (Feb 22, 2007)

I personally feel that letting people with no experience loose with a machine on a customers car is crazy.

Are your customers aware that there cars are being used as a training panel?

Robbie


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## slimjim (Mar 22, 2007)

*MAGIC* said:


> I personally feel that letting people with no experience loose with a machine on a customers car is crazy.
> 
> Are your customers aware that there cars are being used as a training panel?
> 
> Robbie


Have to agree , do they get there cars done for free?


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## Sportscar Protection (Feb 17, 2006)

Ollie_Escort said:


> Whereabouts is the academy based?


If you do the full professional training course , I base the training as close to home as possible for you , we do work on my customers cars and as my client base is nationwide i try to organise it around the immediate area , although you may occasionally need to drive out a customers location but not normally more than an hour away .

The enthusiast detailer course is done at home and on your own car , this way we kill two birds with one stone , your car gets our full restoration detail and you learn wash techniques ,claying , DA skills and interior cleaning techniques so you can go on and maintain it at that level .



*MAGIC* said:


> I personally feel that letting people with no experience loose with a machine on a customers car is crazy.
> 
> Are your customers aware that there cars are being used as a training panel?
> 
> Robbie


The way i run the course and probably what's not too apparent in this thread is that the trainees don't start on the high end stuff , we start on normal every day cars , then as the course progresses and the trainees skills and techniques improve , we move onto the more high end stuff .
This way you gain confidence working with all paint types and on all marques , so when the time comes and you get the call to do your first Porsche , Ferrari etc and asked if you've ever detailed one before , the answer "yes" is a lot more reassuring to the customer than "no , but i've polished a panel in me mates garage" 

Believe me , and i'm sure the guys who have attended my courses will confirm this , there is no way you get any where near the decent cars until you are good enough . 
I start you off with a DA , when and only when you're comfortable with the machine , fluent with your movement , applying correct pressure etc etc , I move you up to a rotary , this way the transition to using a rotary becomes quite natural , so you're not running the risk of burning through or damaging edges because your technique is wrong,

Our customers are fully aware that the guys are training and are totally fine with it .
In fact , the only way you're going to learn to detail properly is to detail real cars in the real world ,so i'd hardly say they're using it as a training panel .

It does make me smile when you get the odd one or two offering some criticism to the threads on here , but tell me what's worse ,somebody setting themselves up as a "Professional Detailer" with no real training or experience then going out and damaging a customers car because they've not got the correct skills to do the job properly or safely , or getting yourself off on a course , then coming on here and showing people that you're learning to do things correctly , why criticise someone for that ?

Ok on that photo , Adams over on his edge , but before passing judgement and posting shocked faces , why don't you look at the photo then ask the reason why ? 
Why is he using the edge ? What machine is he using ? What pad/compound combination is he using ? What would that process achieve ?
Do I need to go on :thumb:



slimjim said:


> Have to agree , do they get there cars done for free?


Some are done for free , some are done at a reduced rate:thumb:


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## paulmc08 (Feb 3, 2009)

cracking job on the leather colour change:thumb:and great results on the cars and i think the way you run the courses are a good idea as the saying go's theory is easier than the practical!!


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## Dave KG (Feb 23, 2006)

Sportscar Protection said:


> I start you off with a DA , when and only when you're comfortable with the machine , fluent with your movement , applying correct pressure etc etc , I move you up to a rotary , this way the transition to using a rotary becomes quite natural , so you're not running the risk of burning through or damaging edges because your technique is wrong,
> 
> It does make me smile when you get the odd one or two offering some criticism to the threads on here , but tell me what's worse ,somebody setting themselves up as a "Professional Detailer" with no real training or experience then going out and damaging a customers car because they've not got the correct skills to do the job properly or safely , or getting yourself off on a course , then coming on here and showing people that you're learning to do things correctly , why criticise someone for that ?
> 
> ...


Perhaps to set some folks' minds at ease so people don't pass judgement and post shocked faces, you could expand on your questions for us...? Why is the DA being used in this fashion, with what looks like a soft foam polishing pad and as far as can be determined, unknow polish? And what this process would achieve, which is hard to say without knowing the paint type in honesty or the polish being used. One could use this technique to attempt focussed correction, as part of a (very for a DA) large area set perhaps - I presume the pad will have ceased rotation here so simply have been oscillating... an interesting review on Autopia about relevant removal rates and the "digging" effect of abrasives with a DA would see greater removal _in some cases_ for this technique, was that the aim? Why not use a 4" pad and spot correct? Different approaches to different problems, the picture highlights a very interesting technique, and I'm sure if you explain the reasons for it people will not be so shocked... The picture, on the simple face of it, you can see why it would raise eyebrows but a little explanation would help with that 

I think the ideas of detailing training, detailing academy, call it what you will, are fantastic - detailing as we all know has not set in stone standards and techniques (which is why the above with regard to the photo makes for an interesting discussion), so its not as if one can gain a paper qualification at the end... but it does help to give training, experience as you say to folk so they don't simply buy a PC, do their bonnet and then start a business. On the job training, practical experience working with a detailer is worth its weight in gold and it is great to see more and more detailers offering this as a service these days 

An interesting point raised about using the DA as a _transition_ machine to the rotary... now we all educate in different ways, we have to as the learning style of each individual differs and one could go on at length about physchologies of learning and how different people respond to education techniques - be that theoretical discipline, scientific, vocational (detailing)... Which is why I raise this as an intersting point as to me it is very interesting. From my own perspectives in working with people and teaching people to use the rotary polisher, I for the most part actually avoid the DA as a transition machine - the physical style of the machine is very different, the handling of the machine and its movements are very different. In my experience, kinesthetic-based learners transitioning from DA to rotary can find it more difficult than simply going to rotary alone as the natural feel they have learned for the DA does not work best for the rotary in a lot of cases. Its a case of unlearn, relearn - difficult task. Naturally, this simply represents my own perspective on this one aspect, and different people will learn differently and some _will_ benefit from the DA but out of those I have worked with, I would put them in the minority bracket. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on this - I am not saying either way is correct or incorrect, as above, teaching and learning styles vary dramatically and the key as the "educator" is to be abl to vary your style to suit your student(s), the hardest aspect of teaching in fact. But it is always good for two people with a common end goal and differing methods to discuss their relative benefits


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## Braz11 (Aug 28, 2009)

I was over on the edge for a specific reason, and wasnt applying as much pressure as it looks.. Yes it was a soft pad on the DA. 
But before you guys criticise anyones work... why dont you ask some questions ( Simple Questions ) or shall i say common sense question for you? Say your a detailer , doesnt sound like it by posting a picture of someone using a technique and then simply taking the **** out of it? yea


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## Dave KG (Feb 23, 2006)

Braz11 said:


> I was over on the edge for a specific reason, and wasnt applying as much pressure as it looks.. Yes it was a soft pad on the DA.
> But before you guys criticise anyones work... why dont you ask some questions ( Simple Questions ) or shall i say common sense question for you? Say your a detailer , doesnt sound like it by posting a picture of someone using a technique and then simply taking the **** out of it? yea


Que? Who's taking the ****? ... As I alluded to in my post, the style illustrated in the picwould raise eyebrows _on the face of it_, but explanation as to what was being done would clear this up and folk may be able to learn a little bit out of it too which is the point of a discussion forum.


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## chrisc (Jun 15, 2008)

Dave KG said:


> Que? Who's taking the ****? ... As I alluded to in my post, the style illustrated in the picwould raise eyebrows _on the face of it_, but explanation as to what was being done would clear this up and folk may be able to learn a little bit out of it too which is the point of a discussion forum.


dont think he meant you dave:thumb:


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## Mirror Finish Details (Aug 21, 2008)

Looks like detailing is going down the route the plumbing/building trade went 5 years ago, £2-3k course at some academy for a few weeks and everyone was suddenly a plumber. Cutting prices and ruining the trade.


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## Braz11 (Aug 28, 2009)

chrisc said:


> dont think he meant you dave:thumb:


Ino this Discussion is so everyone can help each other out , but you could of asked why is there so much pressure involved on one edge? 
its a Techqnique thats used in the Academy, involving the DA and a substance. 
Well i can tell you this ,,, 
The 2/3 weeks i had on the Course provided alot of useful tips and information and now i am very confident on going out on my own and detailing a car... Obviously we started on cheaper cars/ less expensive and then slowly moved on to the more superioer cars ( Porsche , Ferrari , Bently & Range Rovers ) 
But the Detailing course is fantastic, and would defintly recommend it ! :thumb:


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## Dave KG (Feb 23, 2006)

Braz11 said:


> Ino this Discussion is so everyone can help each other out , *but you could of asked why is there so much pressure involved on one edge?*
> its a Techqnique thats used in the Academy, involving the DA and a substance.
> Well i can tell you this ,,,
> The 2/3 weeks i had on the Course provided alot of useful tips and information and now i am very confident on going out on my own and detailing a car... Obviously we started on cheaper cars/ less expensive and then slowly moved on to the more superioer cars ( Porsche , Ferrari , Bently & Range Rovers )
> But the Detailing course is fantastic, and would defintly recommend it ! :thumb:


I did ask this  ... As I thought it would benefit those reading this thread who are perhaps wondering about this and are perhaps initially a bit shocked by it to know _why_ you were using the DA in this fashion. Nobody is doubting the quality of the course, well I certainly am not, I think its great to see such courses. However, I would be interested if the method being used above could perhaps be expanded upon for the benefit of those reading the thread, rather than being defensive of it, simply explain it


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## Auto Finesse (Jan 10, 2007)

As for "not getting any where near the high end stuff" and "you work on average cars to start with" comments made, its all a matter of position, a focus ST would be an old sh!tter to a guy on 200K a year rolling in a Lambo, but to some one on 20K a year it could be there pride and joy, surely the cost of the vehicle is irrelevant, letting someone lose on someone elses vehicle for training is IMO irresponsible and unprofessional.



Braz11 said:


> I was over on the edge for a specific reason, and wasnt applying as much pressure as it looks.. Yes it was a soft pad on the DA.
> But before you guys criticise anyones work... why dont you ask some questions ( Simple Questions ) or shall i say common sense question for you? Say your a detailer , doesnt sound like it by posting a picture of someone using a technique and then simply taking the **** out of it? yea


Wow thats one way to make your self look a right  in a single post 

Im a Detailer and id say that angle on a DA is very poor technique, the DA machine would have lost half of its cutting power by this action alone, so to say its for dipping is pointless, you would use a rotary on that angle for that instance and you would not apply that amount of pressure so you bow out the pad.


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## *MAGIC* (Feb 22, 2007)

james b said:


> As for "not getting any where near the high end stuff" and "you work on average cars to start with" comments made, its all a matter of position, a focus ST would be an old sh!tter to a guy on 200K a year rolling in a Lambo, but to some one on 20K a year it could be there pride and joy, surely the cost of the vehicle is irrelevant, letting someone lose on someone elses vehicle for training is IMO irresponsible and unprofessional.
> 
> Wow thats one way to make your self look a right  in a single post
> 
> Im a Detailer and id say that angle on a DA is very poor technique, the DA machine would have lost half of its cutting power by this action alone, so to say its for dipping is pointless, you would use a rotary on that angle for that instance and you would not apply that amount of pressure so you bow out the pad.


Spot on :thumb:


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## *MAGIC* (Feb 22, 2007)

Braz11 said:


> I was over on the edge for a specific reason, and wasnt applying as much pressure as it looks.. Yes it was a soft pad on the DA.
> But before you guys criticise anyones work... why dont you ask some questions ( Simple Questions ) or shall i say common sense question for you? Say your a detailer , doesnt sound like it by posting a picture of someone using a technique and then simply taking the **** out of it? yea


So tell us why you were using the machine in that way?

Ive never needed too 

Robbie


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## Dave KG (Feb 23, 2006)

james b said:


> As for "not getting any where near the high end stuff" and "you work on average cars to start with" comments made, its all a matter of position, a focus ST would be an old sh!tter to a guy on 200K a year rolling in a Lambo, but to some one on 20K a year it could be there pride and joy, surely the cost of the vehicle is irrelevant...


... exactly, and a very good point. The cost of any vehicle is irrelevant, and every vehicle should be viewed and treated in exactly the same way - with the utmost and fullest of respect for it, and its owner


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## Teabag (Dec 17, 2008)

oh dear its gone a bit bad..but I must say great work on those lovely cars

I bet you wish you never posted this thread now.. especially the much discussed DA pic...

I wish you all the best, and the detailer academy is a great idea

Teabag


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## Sportscar Protection (Feb 17, 2006)

Well this has developed into a pleasant thread:lol:

I came across this thread last night , quite late after being up at 5 am , having a 5 hour drive in the snow followed by a hard day at the office , after reading it today with a clear head I can see how that photo may look to some
I stand by what i said about the raised eyebrows post though , that was obviously done for effect and in my opinion serves no purpose but to cause offence , which it did .
There's no denying it does happen on here , someone posts something , then gets shot down in flames , i can understand it if someone says something stupid or derogatory , then they get what they deserve but another detailer trying to reduce a thread to a slanging match or directly criticising another detailers work in my opinion is unprofessional .
i've been in this game a long time and i've never criticised another detailer's work , it's something i just don't do , maybe I'm just old fashioned but I've always had the opinion that if i work on my own reputation rather than try and taint that of others , then i'll do well and I have.

Ok , so lets move on :thumb:
again reading through i think a few more things need to be made a bit clearer



Dave KG said:


> Perhaps to set some folks' minds at ease so people don't pass judgement and post shocked faces, you could expand on your questions for us...? Why is the DA being used in this fashion, with what looks like a soft foam polishing pad and as far as can be determined, unknow polish? And what this process would achieve, which is hard to say without knowing the paint type in honesty or the polish being used. One could use this technique to attempt focussed correction, as part of a (very for a DA) large area set perhaps - I presume the pad will have ceased rotation here so simply have been oscillating... an interesting review on Autopia about relevant removal rates and the "digging" effect of abrasives with a DA would see greater removal _in some cases_ for this technique, was that the aim? Why not use a 4" pad and spot correct?


From looking at the photo in detail , lets be honest here, it could be something as simple as he's come back over onto the edge as he's changed direction from top to bottom , nobody else ever done that ?????? and he certainly wasn't applying too much pressure

Going on to what Adam posted , I do teach techniques using the edges of the pads and greatly support the "digging" theory . 
i'm not a big fan of wet sanding a car , something i have said many a time on here , it's always the last resort IMO . to me safety on a customers car is everything and going at it with a bit of sandpaper in your hand is not always the best option , in fact I'd rather leave a deep scratch in than wet sand it out , so it's only done if the owner insists .
If the picture had of been Adam wet sanding the porsche then I could understand the uproar

There was an area around the middle of the bonnet on the porsche that had a cluster of medium to deep scratches on it , so i chose to use a "digging" technique or "edging" as i call it to do a more focused repair , and for the record , it can be done with a DA or a rotary with great effect  and something which i teach as part of my course .
The paint was quite soft , so we used a medium to soft pad with Menz FA on the DA , the DA used purely as i didn't want to generate too much heat on the panel .



Dave KG said:


> An interesting point raised about using the DA as a _transition_ machine to the rotary... now we all educate in different ways, we have to as the learning style of each individual differs and one could go on at length about physchologies of learning and how different people respond to education techniques - be that theoretical discipline, scientific, vocational (detailing)... Which is why I raise this as an intersting point as to me it is very interesting. From my own perspectives in working with people and teaching people to use the rotary polisher, I for the most part actually avoid the DA as a transition machine - the physical style of the machine is very different, the handling of the machine and its movements are very different. In my experience, kinesthetic-based learners transitioning from DA to rotary can find it more difficult than simply going to rotary alone as the natural feel they have learned for the DA does not work best for the rotary in a lot of cases. Its a case of unlearn, relearn - difficult task. Naturally, this simply represents my own perspective on this one aspect, and different people will learn differently and some _will_ benefit from the DA but out of those I have worked with, I would put them in the minority bracket. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on this - I am not saying either way is correct or incorrect, as above, teaching and learning styles vary dramatically and the key as the "educator" is to be abl to vary your style to suit your student(s), the hardest aspect of teaching in fact. But it is always good for two people with a common end goal and differing methods to discuss their relative benefits


Jesus Dave , thats deep

The way i see it is as a pro detailer you need to be skilled with both a DA and a Rotary , i think its fair to say there is a big fear element when it comes to first using a rotary and rightly so .
So i start everyone off with a DA , i find this way after a week or two the student becomes more comfortable with having a polishing machine in their hand ,i think it's just a confidence thing most times .
Undoubtedly they are 2 different machines and generally used in different ways but there are some similarities in techniques you can use ,so i really do believe that by spending time with a DA first this helps to take the fear out of using a Rotary and the more comfortable you are with it , the quicker you'll learn.



Mirror Finish said:


> Looks like detailing is going down the route the plumbing/building trade went 5 years ago, £2-3k course at some academy for a few weeks and everyone was suddenly a plumber. Cutting prices and ruining the trade.


I couldn't disagree more with that , one of the biggest question I'm asked by the guys on the courses is 'how much should i charge , should i undercut to get the work" 
My response to that is always no , if you're doing a full detail on a car its going to take you a minimum of 2 days , you should be charging £500 to £600 for that service , don't water down the integrity of our business just to try and get work or get one over on the competition .
Detailing is a skill and its also labour intensive and in my experience anybody who wants it done properly will pay good money for it .
No doubt detailing has become a trendy industry to get into over the last few years and there will always be people who offer a cut rate service for a cut rate price , but people aren't stupid , these guys generally get found out in the end .



james b said:


> As for "not getting any where near the high end stuff" and "you work on average cars to start with" comments made, its all a matter of position, a focus ST would be an old sh!tter to a guy on 200K a year rolling in a Lambo, but to some one on 20K a year it could be there pride and joy, surely the cost of the vehicle is irrelevant, letting someone lose on someone elses vehicle for training is IMO irresponsible and unprofessional.
> 
> Wow thats one way to make your self look a right  in a single post
> 
> Im a Detailer and id say that angle on a DA is very poor technique, the DA machine would have lost half of its cutting power by this action alone, so to say its for dipping is pointless, you would use a rotary on that angle for that instance and you would not apply that amount of pressure so you bow out the pad.


You're not wrong James , I certainly never look down on a customers car , whatever it is , in fact just before christmas i went and did a full restoration detail on a T reg Astra . i look after the guy's EVO and 350Z , he takes as much pride in his astra as he does his toys.
I think the point trying to be made is that i don't just throw our students into detailing the supercars ,that would be irresposible and unprofessional 
, the cars we start on are usually my own ,my familiy's or cars given to us to use from my existing client base .
All my customers are fully aware that the guys are coming over to train and totally comfortable with it , the thing is i still have my own reputation to uphold , so i'm not going to let someone loose if they show signs of being an idiot
The supercars at the end of the course are done more as a reward , the students only get to do them when they have proved that they are good enough , when they've shown that they can take in the information , use it and have the correct skills to do it safely .
most of our customers are also happy for the students to use the photo's taken , so they can use them for their websites when they go out and set up on their own , in general the courses are designed to give the guys who want to go on and detail professionally the best possible start.



Dave KG said:


> ... exactly, and a very good point. The cost of any vehicle is irrelevant, and every vehicle should be viewed and treated in exactly the same way - with the utmost and fullest of respect for it, and its owner


Again , you are right Dave , we have the utmost respect for our clients and their cars and i guess they have the same for me , thats why they allow me to use their cars as part of my academy:thumb:

Lets stop the *****in boys , it serves no purpose and helps no one
No hard feelings
:thumb:
Dave


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## Auto Finesse (Jan 10, 2007)

Fair point Dave maybe i misunderstood it,


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## chisai (Jan 1, 2009)

Sportscar Protection said:


> From looking at the photo in detail , lets be honest here, it could be something as simple as he's come back over onto the edge as he's changed direction from top to bottom , nobody else ever done that ?????? and he certainly wasn't applying too much pressure
> 
> Going on to what Adam posted , I do teach techniques using the edges of the pads and greatly support the "digging" theory .
> i'm not a big fan of wet sanding a car , something i have said many a time on here , it's always the last resort IMO . to me safety on a customers car is everything and going at it with a bit of sandpaper in your hand is not always the best option , in fact I'd rather leave a deep scratch in than wet sand it out , so it's only done if the owner insists .
> ...


Thanks for that explanation of the photo. 
I think I was ONE of the first to wonder about it and I have to say it has developed wrongly from there.
I, being a non machine user but keen to be one, was puzzled, but now we know it is a taught technique and pretty successful in some ways. I have a lot to learn.


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## Dave KG (Feb 23, 2006)

Sportscar Protection said:


> Well this has developed into a pleasant thread:lol:
> 
> I came across this thread last night , quite late after being up at 5 am , having a 5 hour drive in the snow followed by a hard day at the office , after reading it today with a clear head I can see how that photo may look to some
> I stand by what i said about the raised eyebrows post though , that was obviously done for effect and in my opinion serves no purpose but to cause offence , which it did .
> ...


Thank you for taking the time to address the questions asked in the most recent posts... Irrespective of the way the photograph was originally raised, that is was raised happened and I am glad you have taken the time to answer the questions which have been asked.

The "digging" technique as I have referred to it in the above posts is an interesting one - it works selectively as you will know, good to see it included as part of a detailing course as it can prove its use if not wanting to use a smaller pad for spot correction for example. I hope you can see, as you write, why the photograph may have raised an eyebrow, whether or not it was correctly addressed in the thread... but the beauty of discussion forums is there is the opportunity to share information like this, and quite a few reading this will benefit from knowing a DA can be used on edge like this for certain requirements on some paints.

The confidence issue with machine polishing is an interesting one... there is, and we all know it, a feeling the DA is a fool proof safe machine while the rotary is a fire breathing dragon (I've perhaps exaggerrated a little ). Confidence on the DA is generally higher because of this and in a lot of ways it is the safer machine. I can see that the effects of building up a _general_ confidence will work for some and its definitely a plus point for teaching the DA first - similarly, one could teach hand polishing as the very starting introduction to introduce paint correction, it also interestigly gives a feel for the amount of work one can put in with a polish and a pad and do very little if any correction - gives starting basis for comparison of the forces and limits involved. Detailing in the UK is as an industry still very much in its infancy, the training of detailing even more so to the extent that there is no official qualification, and certainly not one that assesses quality on a national level to a set of benchmarks. Thus it is wide open to interpretation of techniques and skills and different teaching methods which to me is a good thing as every detailer has their own style to pass on. I enjoy seeing this discussed as well, as it can only benefit those offering training to discuss methods and ideas and further benefit those being trained with a knock-on effect to the industry as a whole one would hope - high quality instruction helps to produce high quality students, high quality results.

Hopefully my posts here are being taken for what they are worth rather than beeing seen as "*****in", as outlined above it is important when something like this is questioned, and it is something which goes against what one may call normal technique, to openly discuss it for the benefits of those reading... so many members on the forum, only a small percentage will have seen this post but from that hopefully a few will have learned something new today


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## rossdook (Aug 20, 2008)

I've followed this thread with interest and it's fair to say it represents the best and worst of internet forums to me. 

Anyone who follow's Dave KG's extensive postings on machine correction will not be surprised at his questions, as he has an extremely enquiring mind and is fascinated at the science of it all. 

For people to then start petty digging at a well respected and extremely seasoned detailer and pictures / postings from recent students of his, when one or more of them have never even attempted to machine correct beggars belief really! I'm not a fan sometimes when forum posters put two and two together and get five, so it's disappointing for me.

Bafore anyone reads more into this - it's only my opinion as a semi pro with a passion for detailing over many years and a desire to learn more. Check any of the "top guns" work throughout the country - they didn't get where they are by stopping at differnet levels, they'll all tell you that you're NEVER finished with learning! As soon as you stop enquiring, you stop improving I'd say.

Can we all start 2010 with our glasses half full please? Thanks. 

Well done on your work and training guys. :thumb:


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## PootleFlump (Jan 1, 2006)

I haven't read the whole thread but the jist I got was that someone pays £2k for a training package and they learn to polish on customer cars who are paying to have their cars polished.


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## Sportscar Protection (Feb 17, 2006)

PootleFlump said:


> I haven't read the whole thread but the jist I got was that someone pays £2k for a training package and they learn to polish on customer cars who are paying to have their cars polished.


I suggest you read through the whole thread then mate


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## rossdook (Aug 20, 2008)

Just had to double check on that A class - a friend's mum had X423 TST, so it was close, but not quite! :wall:


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## Sportscar Protection (Feb 17, 2006)

rossdook said:


> Just had to double check on that A class - a friend's mum had X423 TST, so it was close, but not quite! :wall:


That's my other half's car , it originally came from up your way so may have lived not too far away . , my mrs loves them , not the sought of car you want to be in as a passenger though if you get travel sick


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## rossdook (Aug 20, 2008)

I think the ST reg was from Inverness if I recall?

My Mrs does get a bit travel sick from time to time, but quite liked the rental A class we had in Nice a few years back, so she thinks you're just having a moan! :lol:


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## Sportscar Protection (Feb 17, 2006)

rossdook said:


> I think the ST reg was from Inverness if I recall?
> 
> My Mrs does get a bit travel sick from time to time, but quite liked the rental A class we had in Nice a few years back, so she thinks you're just having a moan! :lol:


Ok then , it's a girls car


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## alan_mcc (Oct 28, 2008)

Braz11 said:


> Say your a detailer , doesnt sound like it by posting a picture of someone using a technique and then simply taking the **** out of it? yea


Don't get hissy over mate, they say 'a picture can speak a thousand words' but also it can not speak many.

Where did I 'take the ****' out of you?
Where did I have a laugh?

No, I did not.


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## Mark M (Nov 29, 2006)

Without text, what are you doing here then? 










This isn't a dig at you James, although I know you will take it that way...
Merely proving a fact, that a picture is worth a thousand words.

P.S. Excellent work on the leather, quite impressive


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## *MAGIC* (Feb 22, 2007)

Mark M said:


> Without text, what are you doing here then?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


A demo on NOT how to do it


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## Mark M (Nov 29, 2006)

Could be :lol:


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## Teabag (Dec 17, 2008)

*MAGIC* said:


> A demo on NOT how to do it


the machine is not actually switched on either ...lol


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## Auto Finesse (Jan 10, 2007)

Mark M said:


> Without text, what are you doing here then?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Not taking it as a dig but clearly anyone who knows what they are looking it will 1, realise im not working on a car, its a training day and an advanced one at that, and would also notice that is a rotary, not a DA, its a whole new ball game that maybe you dont understand.

In that pic you have my self showing how using a rotary on an angle can remove deeper RDS by ("Dipping") rather than removing up to 5 microns of Clear from say a Ft square, you work on a more isolated area.

Its all irrelevant any way its a rotary polisher not a DA.

Standing around me there are some of DW's long standing enthusiasts who im sure can vouch for what we show on a training day 

We also show things like this on a training day:



















But id not take you out to do it on one of my clients Porsche 

Il show you some proper angle if you like :










But i create finishes like this *HERE* i dont need to prove myself :wave:


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## Bigpikle (May 21, 2007)

IIRC thats James demo'ing a really good technique on a test panel we just fubar'd for him while Adam, myself and others stood there repeatedly taking the pi55 out of him


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## Mark M (Nov 29, 2006)

Teabag said:


> the machine is not actually switched on either ...lol


You should go to specsavers 



james b said:


> Not taking it as a dig but clearly anyone who knows what they are looking it will 1, realise im not working on a car, its a training day and an advanced one at that, and would also notice that is a rotary, *not a DA, its a whole new ball game that maybe you dont understand. *
> 
> In that pic you have my self showing how using a rotary on an angle can remove deeper RDS by ("Dipping") rather than removing up to 5 microns of Clear from say a Ft square, you work on a more isolated area.
> 
> ...


Blah blah blah. You rise to any bait, and are missing my point :wall:

I didn't insinuate anything! Simply put, there is a picture there, without words, and it could be many things.

I know that you are a top class detailer, and you know that I think that also. I have suggested nothing about what you are doing, merely posted a photo, and now it raises questions...

You know what you were doing in that photo, and the people around you do, but what about the 1000's of members online?

Why come out with a snidey comment regarding using a rotary polisher, I have a Makita and have used it for a couple of years. Quit trying to belittle people.

Maybe you shouldn't go in guns blazing with ridiculous comments until you know the FACTS, or do people have to spell themselves out everytime they post something.

Your photos, side by side suggest the same thing (without words).



















I am not questioning your ability as a detailer, so don't defend yourself...

But, now you know how it feels to be questioned in such a way, and therefore you have had to defend yourself.


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## Dave KG (Feb 23, 2006)

A few important take home messages from this thread 

Firstly, and as Mark highlights above, photographs on their own with no explanation certain can be misinterpreted to the viewing public, certainly those with less machine polishing knowledge who may baulk at seeing a machine used like this. Irrespective of whether it was a DA or a rotary. Its a more advanced technique, less talked about, and the picture _needs explanation, in words._

Secondly - as Dave at Sportscar Protection shows, a good explanation is worth its weight in gold. Hopefully those reading this thread who will have seen that as a strange method will have learned something here, as Dave's post was elloquent and descriptive and went a huge way to explaining the photograph. I applaud Dave's posts here - essentially his training was being called into question here and he simply answered professionally and in a way that helped anyone interested in the technique - no theatrics, self-justification or belittling replies, just a professional explanation - others would do well to follow that example!


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## rossdook (Aug 20, 2008)

Well said Dave(s)


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