# Collinite over black hole?



## minibbb (Mar 9, 2012)

Heard somewhere this is a no no, that the case? 

If not would AG High def wax be ok? 

Many thanks!


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## Tony_C (Jun 15, 2012)

I use White Diamond before waxing with 476, as BD is a glaze I wouldn't see a problem, unless someone would care to enlighten me also.


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## Ninja59 (Feb 17, 2009)

colly waxes are solvent heavy so could remove it but i doubt it.


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## cheekymonkey (Mar 15, 2008)

collis solvent are strong enough to remove tar which is a lot harder to remove then BH. personally i'd go for a less harsh wax to top BH with


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## minibbb (Mar 9, 2012)

Thanks guys, maybe the autoglym HD wax or shall I pick up something like dodo juice or natty paste?


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## Ninja59 (Feb 17, 2009)

AG HD also solvent but not as much if my memory serves me right but you are more likely to get away with it as it works over SRP...or did for me


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## millns84 (Jul 5, 2009)

Collinite is fine over blackhole. It's a polymer glaze and can be topped with the most solvent heavy LSP's out there, including Collinite, FK1000P and Optiseal.


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## minibbb (Mar 9, 2012)

millns84 said:


> Collinite is fine over blackhole. It's a polymer glaze and can be topped with the most solvent heavy LSP's out there, including Collinite, FK1000P and Optiseal.


Thanks matey, mixed opinions though so not quite sure what I should do! Tempted just to use the colly as u already have it


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## cheekymonkey (Mar 15, 2008)

millns84 said:


> Collinite is fine over blackhole. It's a polymer glaze and can be topped with the most solvent heavy LSP's out there, including Collinite, FK1000P and Optiseal.


it may be a polymer glaze, but its main job is to fill and enhance the look the polymer protection left behind is minimal and easily removed. try using BH with nothing on top and see how long it lasts


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## cheekymonkey (Mar 15, 2008)

minibbb said:


> Thanks guys, maybe the autoglym HD wax or shall I pick up something like dodo juice or natty paste?


HD is not as bad as colli when it comes to solvents an should be ok, out of the ones mentioned dodo is your best bet


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## millns84 (Jul 5, 2009)

cheekymonkey said:


> it may be a polymer glaze, but its main job is to fill and enhance the look the polymer protection left behind is minimal and easily removed. try using BH with nothing on top and see how long it lasts


I'd never leave a glaze on it's own. My point is that it can and does resist solvent heavy LSP's going on top whereas an oil based glaze would be removed by the solvents.


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## minibbb (Mar 9, 2012)

millns84 said:


> I'd never leave a glaze on it's own. My point is that it can and does resist solvent heavy LSP's going on top whereas an oil based glaze would be removed by the solvents.


Collinite it is then, cheers matey


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## cheekymonkey (Mar 15, 2008)

millns84 said:


> I'd never leave a glaze on it's own. My point is that it can and does resist solvent heavy LSP's going on top whereas an oil based glaze would be removed by the solvents.


 colli can and does remove products previously applied that includes polymer glazes which are not much better then oil based when it comes to resistance to solvents. Its been proved to remove tar which is a lot harder to remove then any glaze.


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## millns84 (Jul 5, 2009)

cheekymonkey said:


> colli can and does remove products previously applied that includes polymer glazes which are not much better then oil based when it comes to resistance to solvents. Its been proved to remove tar which is a lot harder to remove then any glaze.


It's never removed blackhole for me :thumb:


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## cheekymonkey (Mar 15, 2008)

millns84 said:


> It's never removed blackhole for me :thumb:


thats good but how do you know?


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## millns84 (Jul 5, 2009)

cheekymonkey said:


> thats good but how do you know?


A solid black car with bad paint which appeared virtually swirl free after applying blackhole, and looked the same after the collinite. :thumb:


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## cheekymonkey (Mar 15, 2008)

millns84 said:


> A solid black car with bad paint which appeared virtually swirl free after applying blackhole, and looked the same after the collinite. :thumb:


that just means that the fillers from BH and/or the solids in collinite is there not that BH is still there. :thumb:


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## waxy (Feb 27, 2006)

cheekymonkey said:


> colli can and does remove products previously applied that includes polymer glazes which are not much better then oil based when it comes to resistance to solvents. Its been proved to remove tar which is a lot harder to remove then any glaze.


I've used Collinite with a filling glaze underneath for over 15 years on older cars,and haven't noticed any diminishing effect on filling.All of the Collinite waxes can remove tar,but i've only ever seen this when they are applied quite aggressively.


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## cheekymonkey (Mar 15, 2008)

waxy said:


> I've used Collinite with a filling glaze underneath for over 15 years on older cars,and haven't noticed any diminishing effect on filling.All of the Collinite waxes can remove tar,but i've only ever seen this when they are applied quite aggressively.


I never said the filling effect would be lost just the gloss enhancement of the glaze.You dont have to apply collinite aggressively to remove tar, just place a thicker than normal coating on the tar and the solvents will dissolve the tar without any hard rubbing at all. I take it you agree a glaze is much easier to remove than tar. solvents are a natural cleaner so from the time you apply collinite over a glaze till the time you remove it the solvents in collinite are dissolving the glaze coating under it the same way as it does with tar. 
the fillers do take longer to dissolve then the gloss enhancing of a glaze.


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## millns84 (Jul 5, 2009)

cheekymonkey said:


> I never said the filling effect would be lost just the gloss enhancement of the glaze


Isn't the gloss enhanced because the swirls are filled? Aren't the fillers and gloss enhancers one in the same? Actually, does Blackhole even contain gloss enhancers?



cheekymonkey said:


> I take it you agree a glaze is much easier to remove than tar.


An oily glaze would be very susceptible to solvents, but is a polymer glaze?



cheekymonkey said:


> the fillers do take longer to dissolve then the gloss enhancing of a glaze.


Do they?

This all sounds like speculation to me. Having used Blackhole extensively with quite a few LSP's, some with harsh solvents, I've never seen any aspect of the Blackhole removed, just sealed in under whatever LSP I've topped it with.


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## cheekymonkey (Mar 15, 2008)

millns84 said:


> Isn't the gloss enhanced because the swirls are filled? Aren't the fillers and gloss enhancers one in the same? Actually, does Blackhole even contain gloss enhancers?
> 
> An oily glaze would be very susceptible to solvents, but is a polymer glaze?
> 
> ...


I think this sums up your knowledge is really lacking in this department
A glaze is a gloss enhancer if it contains fillers or not, its main job is to enhance the finish. there are plenty of glazes that dont contain fillers. the fillers are to fill which does help to enhance the finish but in a different way to a glaze. if you machine polish paint until it is perfect some good glazes will still enhance the finish (eg darken the paint). So yes BH contains gloss enhancers all glazes do its there job.

Although a oil glaze is weaker then a polymer glaze they are still susceptible to solvents, there not the same as a polymer sealant when it comes to resistance they are far weaker.

there is not speculation involved i've tryed and tested it. and as youve already pointed out all you know is that the fillers are still there not the gloss enhancers. you would get the same finish using a LSP with fillers.
from what i have found from trying out solvent heavy products i wont waste my time or money putting any glaze under it.:thumb:


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## millns84 (Jul 5, 2009)

cheekymonkey said:


> I think this sums up your knowledge is really lacking in this department
> A glaze is a gloss enhancer if it contains fillers or not, its main job is to enhance the finish. there are plenty of glazes that dont contain fillers. the fillers are to fill which does help to enhance the finish but in a different way to a glaze. if you machine polish paint until it is perfect some good glazes will still enhance the finish (eg darken the paint). So yes BH contains gloss enhancers all glazes do its there job.
> 
> Although a oil glaze is weaker then a polymer glaze they are still susceptible to solvents, there not the same as a polymer sealant when it comes to resistance they are far weaker.
> ...


Oh dear :lol:

Strange how you can make so many assumptions about my experience with glazes on the basis of questions that I put forward, without providing any substantive response to any of those questions.

I can't remember saying that the gloss enhancers weren't still there. I specifically stated that the Blackhole appeared sealed in under any LSP I've used.

I'm aware that a glaze's job is to enhance finish. The fillers themselves will do this by levelling the paint leading to better reflectivity as the light won't be scattered by swirls. Others, as you quite rightly say give a wetter appearance without filling using gloss enhancers, be those acrylic, oil or polymer based.

Whilst in principal I agree that polymer glazes may be susceptible to solvents in some way, I've not seen any adverse effect of using my own heavy solvent LSP's on top of it. If anything, a couple of those LSP's work particularly well with Blackhole.

It would be interesting to hear more on the results of your testing; how you measured the glaze's reaction to topping with LSP's and what the particular glazes and LSP's were?


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## waxy (Feb 27, 2006)

cheekymonkey said:


> I never said the filling effect would be lost just the gloss enhancement of the glaze.You dont have to apply collinite aggressively to remove tar, just place a thicker than normal coating on the tar and the solvents will dissolve the tar without any hard rubbing at all. I take it you agree a glaze is much easier to remove than tar. solvents are a natural cleaner so from the time you apply collinite over a glaze till the time you remove it the solvents in collinite are dissolving the glaze coating under it the same way as it does with tar.
> the fillers do take longer to dissolve then the gloss enhancing of a glaze.


I didn't say that you did i was merely describing my own,and no doubt many other peoples observations when using these products.


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## waxy (Feb 27, 2006)

cheekymonkey said:


> I think this sums up your knowledge is really lacking in this department
> A glaze is a gloss enhancer if it contains fillers or not, its main job is to enhance the finish. there are plenty of glazes that dont contain fillers. the fillers are to fill which does help to enhance the finish but in a different way to a glaze. if you machine polish paint until it is perfect some good glazes will still enhance the finish (eg darken the paint). So yes BH contains gloss enhancers all glazes do its there job.
> 
> Although a oil glaze is weaker then a polymer glaze they are still susceptible to solvents, there not the same as a polymer sealant when it comes to resistance they are far weaker.
> ...


This comes across as quite patronizing,you have no idea of the posters knowledge,you are assuming he/she has a lack of knowledge because his findings don't match your own.You have stated that a Glaze is a ''gloss enhancer'' whether it contains fillers or not,and that there are plenty of Glazes that don't contain fillers,and that the fillers are to fill,which enhances the finish in a different way to a Glaze,can you expand on this please,describe the ''gloss enhancers'' Can you give examples of Glazes that don't contain fillers.


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## traplin (Feb 22, 2012)

gloss enhancers work by 'just' optimising reflection of light
fillers work by making a more uniform smooth surface optimising reflection of light. 
:thumb:


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## cheekymonkey (Mar 15, 2008)

millns84 said:


> Oh dear :lol:
> 
> Strange how you can make so many assumptions about my experience with glazes on the basis of questions that I put forward, without providing any substantive response to any of those questions.
> 
> ...


my assumption came from your reply you made, anyone reading them would assume your knowledge of glazes were some what lacking



millns84 said:


> Isn't the gloss enhanced because the swirls are filled? Aren't the fillers and gloss enhancers one in the same? Actually, does Blackhole even contain gloss enhancers?
> 
> glazes with fillers still contain gloss enhancers not just the fillers.
> you say you have used solvent heavy products and they have been ok because the fillers are still there but what about the rest of the glaze how do you know it is still there. the filling could also be the collinite.
> ...


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## cheekymonkey (Mar 15, 2008)

waxy said:


> I didn't say that you did i was merely describing my own,and no doubt many other peoples observations when using these products.


the thing is you say the fillers were still there but what about the rest of the glaze? and the filling you can see could be the collinite its self


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## cheekymonkey (Mar 15, 2008)

waxy said:


> This comes across as quite patronizing,you have no idea of the posters knowledge,you are assuming he/she has a lack of knowledge because his findings don't match your own.You have stated that a Glaze is a ''gloss enhancer'' whether it contains fillers or not,and that there are plenty of Glazes that don't contain fillers,and that the fillers are to fill,which enhances the finish in a different way to a Glaze,can you expand on this please,describe the ''gloss enhancers'' Can you give examples of Glazes that don't contain fillers.


its not because his findings dont agree with mine its the replies he gave here that makes me believe that



millns84 said:


> Isn't the gloss enhanced because the swirls are filled? Aren't the fillers and gloss enhancers one in the same? Actually, does Blackhole even contain gloss enhancers?
> 
> An oily glaze would be very susceptible to solvents, but is a polymer glaze?
> 
> ...


fillers technically are not gloss enhancers what they do is flatten ans smooth the surface so the light reflects in a more formed manner giving the inpretion of a more glossy finish.
gloss enhancers amplify the gloss to create more gloss and a far better reflection/ depth. glazes work on the same principal that wax and sealants do for a more reflective look (sealants) the gloss enhancers reflect the light to produce a shinier finish. So glazes enhance the gloss by drawing in the light to create the illusion of depth and wetness, like a good wax does.


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## waxy (Feb 27, 2006)

cheekymonkey said:


> its not because his findings dont agree with mine its the replies he gave here that makes me believe that
> 
> fillers technically are not gloss enhancers what they do is flatten ans smooth the surface so the light reflects in a more formed manner giving the inpretion of a more glossy finish.
> gloss enhancers amplify the gloss to create more gloss and a far better reflection/ depth. glazes work on the same principal that wax and sealants do for a more reflective look (sealants) the gloss enhancers reflect the light to produce a shinier finish. So glazes enhance the gloss by drawing in the light to create the illusion of depth and wetness, like a good wax does.


mate,i'm sorry but that's a load of rubbish.I know what fillers are,and how they work


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## cheekymonkey (Mar 15, 2008)

waxy said:


> mate,i'm sorry but that's a load of rubbish.I know what fillers are,and how they work


so what are they and how do they work


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## cheekymonkey (Mar 15, 2008)

waxy said:


> mate,i'm sorry but that's a load of rubbish.I know what fillers are,and how they work


Waxy still awaiting for a explanation on what fillers are and how they work :thumb:


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## ianrobbo1 (Feb 13, 2007)

Well it's been 4 months now since you asked the question, I suspect you may not be getting that one answered by waxy in the near future!!


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## millns84 (Jul 5, 2009)

ianrobbo1 said:


> Well it's been 4 months now since you asked the question, I suspect you may not be getting that one answered by waxy in the near future!!


Personally, I'd have liked a forum sponsor to step in. Would have been great to get insight from a manufacturer :thumb:


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## minibbb (Mar 9, 2012)

Well I tried it and it seemed fine, didnt seem to affect the durability of the colly


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## President Swirl (Oct 23, 2011)

Say your prayers little one don't forget my son to include everyone
I tuck you in warm within
Keep you free from sin
'Til the lsp comes

Detail with one eye open
Gripping your applicator tight

Exit light 
Enter night 
Take my hand
we're off to use some Collinite


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## GeRoY (Dec 29, 2010)

Hi all 

please can somebody tell me, that Poorboy's Black Hole is a non-abrasive product? It absolutly free of any abrasives and it contains only chemical cleaners?

Thanks in advance


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## durmz (Nov 2, 2010)

GeRoY said:


> Hi all
> 
> please can somebody tell me, that Poorboy's Black Hole is a non-abrasive product? It absolutly free of any abrasives and it contains only chemical cleaners?
> 
> Thanks in advance


I believe so


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## GeRoY (Dec 29, 2010)

durmz said:


> I believe so


Thank You


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