# Is a rear - wheel - drive BMW poor in winter conditions?



## Soul boy 68 (Sep 8, 2013)

Thought I generate in what is an age old debate about RWD BMW's in winter conditions. What is the reality of BMW winter driving and are they as bad as people make out? Is it down to driving skills? With modern tech and limited slip diff, are BMW's better equipped now to deal with winter driving than they used to be? Some would argue that RWD is an absolute menace with loss of grip, a no goer in ice and snow. Lets hear from BMW drivers on here and the not so BMW drivers on here. I could do with some educating on this topic as I have only ever driven FWD and AWD cars and never driven a BMW.


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## Simon m (Oct 18, 2015)

I think the are still not as good as fwd but better than they used to be 
A couple of years ago I spotted a old boy revising his 3 year old bmw up a hill in the snow so he was in theory having a fwd but don't think it got him anywhere but the car was not there the next morning so maybe it did


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## davidcraggs (Aug 1, 2007)

Yes if it is on summer tyres - on winter tyres they are fine (although no doubt others will soon be along to tell me they are completely unnecessary). Not many BMWs have a LSD and they probably only really help with setting off - it's the tyre width which really counts against you, the wider the tyre section the worse it is a cutting through the snow / standing water etc. I bought my first set in 2005 as was sick of worrying whenever snow was forecast and I had a 30 mile each way commute, early in the morning, and often the A19 didn't appear to have been gritted or ploughed at the times I was travelling. Never once failed to get to work in my 330Ci yet numerous fwd cars on my estate could barely get off the drive!

Only one winter since then have I ran a rwd car as a daily driver without them - Jaguar XF in 2009. It was a mistake but fortunately in 2010 I decided to buy some winter tyres for it and the same car was fantastic during one of the worst winters we've had for quite some time.


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## WO-WO (Jun 29, 2015)

My 330d was great, no problems.
The M4 wasn't even worth getting in the car.
And I'll see with the i8, 4wd and narrow wheels will hopefully help.

I wouldn't let it put you off IMO.


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## Turkleton (Apr 18, 2010)

Bag of sand in the boot and some winter tyres and they're absolutely fine.

I was given an X1 loaner as soon as the snow fell in the countryside and it was beyond useless until I got some weight in the back. After that it was just fun


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

Budget for a set of winter tyres.

They aren't very good on the wrong tyres to be honest, but equally nowhere near as bad as some people make out. 

I wouldn't not buy a car I wanted in fear of some snow. 

Genuinely think how many days you've actually had to drive in snow. I can count on one hand how many times in the last 4 years. 

364 better days for every bad one. 

The worry is certainly greater than the reality.


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## turbosnoop (Apr 14, 2015)

I've driven a 1 series diesel in the snow and it was better than a lot of fwd cars I've driven (mainly hot hatches). Someone that doesn't understand the principles of rwd could have got themselves in a mess , but then they could also do that in a fwd car I guess, in the snow


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## Bazza85 (Mar 14, 2015)

My 330 wasnt THAT bad, it was interesting at times, but I always got where I needed. 
No worse than many fwd cars when listening to colleagues tales of winter heroics...
I am dreading the prospect in my 650i though, spesh with it being an auto as well. 
Hopefully reputation is worse than reality


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## Harry_p (Mar 18, 2015)

It depends a lot on the tyres.

I've found mine have been OK on tyres like toyo t1-r which have a V tread pattern. Tyres with the tread in radial bands like the t1-sport and continental sport contacts are next to useless in snow.

The e90 generation cars were pretty terrible. First gen run flats with silly stiff sidewalks, really wide rear tyres and traction control instead of proper mechanical lsds.

My light, nimble e30 m3 on modest width tyres and proper LSD was very good in snow, my e36 with well worn summer tyres would just sit spinning both its rear wheels at idle trying to climb a slight incline on our drive.

Never had a problem with any of them in normal cold / wet / icy conditions. Obviously you have to be sensible when applying power, but it's only been actual snow on the ground where things can be a bit dodgy. (None of mine have had any form of electronic traction control)

This year I'm fitting some all season tyres to both mine and the other halfs cars, I don't think our winters are bad enough to justify full on winter tyres which feel horrible in mild conditions.


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## timo10 (Nov 29, 2007)

To throw another one in to the mix a few manufacturers are now doing all weather tyre , I've got a customer who we have just fitted a set to a 320d so will wait for him to see how they fair . My other halfs 316i should get its winters back on in the next few weeks never got stuck in it yet !


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## Kimo (Jun 7, 2013)

As per everyone else, winter tyres it'll be fine. Summers and no it'll be awful


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

I wouldn't go for all weather tyres, especially on a performance car.

They are a compromise no matter the conditions.


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## 182_Blue (Oct 25, 2005)

When we had the Z4 it didn't go out in snow as it just wouldn't get up the hill on our old Street, that said my edition 30 would only get another 100 foot or so up before stopping, neither had winter tyres, the Z did get stuck on the drive too though LOL, we had a crappy fiesta and that would fly up no problems LOL. 

It's also worth noting that it's not just snow as wet and slippery roads could be a bit hairy at times, or maybe I am just not a good driver ;-)

I have to say i am less put off now though as we have moved and I live within reasonable walking distance to a tram , after all if the weather is that bad should you really venture out in a car when you have a good alternative, you will only get some numty drive into you anyway.


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## m1pui (Jul 24, 2009)

I had an e46 320D on 18" Nankang NS-2 that was absolutely fine in the snow. This was around 2006-2007 and I don't think we had any really bad coverings.

Sister has a e90 330D Auto on 18" M-Sport wheels since about 2009, so she's experienced several winters using both types of tyres. Think she had non-run flat Continentals on one year and she struggled like hell. Either couldn't even get off her drive or she needed several pushes to get up the incline that leads to the road where her house is. 2011 winter she switched to a set of Avon Ice Touring and she never had an ounce of bother and we had quite a bit of snow that year. Didn't replace them so had winter 2013 & 14 on regular rubber. We didn't have too bad a winter, but she still struggled a little bit. Was never left totally stranded, but she admitted the car didn't feel as easy to drive as on winters.

Other half went from an unstoppable Yaris to a 116i a few years back and we stuck some Maloya/Vredestein winters on it and she managed to get about in some pretty hellish weather in it. A few of her workmates had various FWD cars and they couldn't believe she'd gotten into work on quite a few occasions.


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## 182_Blue (Oct 25, 2005)

Soul boy 68 said:


> Thought I generate in what is an age old debate about RWD BMW's in winter conditions. What is the reality of BMW winter driving and are they as bad as people make out? Is it down to driving skills? With modern tech and limited slip diff, are BMW's better equipped now to deal with winter driving than they used to be? Some would argue that RWD is an absolute menace with loss of grip, a no goer in ice and snow. Lets hear from BMW drivers on here and the not so BMW drivers on here. I could do with some educating on this topic as I have only ever driven FWD and AWD cars and never driven a BMW.


I'm guessing you are considering a BMW of some sort?


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## Laurie.J.M (Jun 23, 2011)

Having watched my very slightly uphill road get blocked by a BMW or Mercedes every time it snows I'd say yes RWD is poor in winter conditions, particularly as everyone on the street with a FWD car doesn't seem to have an issue even when the road has turned to sheet ice.

Although saying that, the lady who lives at the bottom of the road drives an I3 and apparently it's very good in the snow, must be the narrow tyres and extra weight over the driven wheels.

Having driven FWD, RWD and AWD in the snow the only place where I felt RWD was worse was getting going, once moving it was fine, I just had to make sure I kept up enough momentum.


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## Soul boy 68 (Sep 8, 2013)

Shaun said:


> I'm guessing you are considering a BMW of some sort?


It's a possibility Shaun, just putting some feelers out here as I have never driven one, but I will test one out at some point, maybe in the winter :lol:


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## Hairy Pete (Oct 2, 2012)

I have had numerous 3 series and with winter tyres would take it anywhere in the snow.
( i live at the highest point in my village ) . Last year I purchased a 428i and a set of 19" winters ...it was an easy winter. 19" are a bit flash but I hated the look of the car for 4 months of the year with basic alloys. I have a set of 16" with winters ready to sell from my last e92 ( 320d).


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## Blackroc (Dec 10, 2012)

Run Flat Tyres = dreadful snow performance (people stop to marvel that you can't get up the smallest incline)

Proper Tyres = better but still not great

Winter Tyres = you will get up slopes 4wd vehicles on summer tyres can't 

(From an owner of 3 - 1 series cars including an M135i)


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## RisingPower (Sep 21, 2007)

Don't recall having many issues with the m3 in most snow on summer tyres tbh, had a lot more weight over the rear axle than the 350z. Then again someone couldn't manage with a 520d in same conditions.

I think it depends more on where you live. If you have hills, maybe even on winter tyres it's not sensible, but no more less than pretty much most cars.


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## Guitarjon (Jul 13, 2012)

I was pondering this myself last night. I've had mx5s for the last 6 year and they've not been too bad in the snow. I've had to learn how to properly drive in the snow though. In the dry my BMW struggles to spin it's wheels unlike the mx5 did. I struggle to see the BMW being bad in the snow based on its summer performance. The mx5 could easily be more of a handful with less power (but less weight also). I did run the last 2 years with winter tyres on the mx5 and it was noticeably easier but I'm going to see how the e61 performs before I go buying another set of tyres. 

Worst case scenario- I get stuck and walk home. Own silly fault for not spending 3/400 pounds on winter tyres that I may or may not need.


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## millns84 (Jul 5, 2009)

It's not just BMW but any RWD car, and especially cars with staggered tyres.

I think it's beyond question that winter tyres help on any car but on a RWD they'll make even more difference.

Tyre reviews actually did a YouTube video a while back showing the difference they make on. BMW's...


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## RisingPower (Sep 21, 2007)

Here's one thought for you, do you honestly believe germany has a milder climate? Yet somehow they seem to be able to manage.


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## Will_G (Jan 23, 2012)

I've never put winter tyres on mine. One winter I think I got stuck about 5/6 times. Once was just a complete shocker. Left the house it was dry on 10 minute journey to work that much snow fell I was stuck for an hour as cars struggled on the road and then I had to clear a path for myself up a hill. That was the worst time, other than that some sand has seen me ok. Did look into possibly getting snow socks but couldn't find any to suit the size of tyres


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## millns84 (Jul 5, 2009)

RisingPower said:


> Here's one thought for you, do you honestly believe germany has a milder climate? Yet somehow they seem to be able to manage.


That might have something to do with the legal requirement over there to fit winter or all season tyres in winter conditions :thumb:


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## m1pui (Jul 24, 2009)

Harry_p said:


> It depends a lot on the tyres.
> 
> I've found mine have been OK on tyres like toyo t1-r which have a V tread pattern. Tyres with the tread in radial bands like the t1-sport and continental sport contacts are next to useless in snow.


I had T1-R's on my RX8 when I had it. Had an RX300 on winters so didn't warrant getting a set of winters for the Maz. Took it out a few times in the snow/slush and it was generally fine on the flat (would obviously slip a bit if you were over generous with the throttle) and slight inclines if you were moving, but struggled on steeper ones and also if I'd had to pull away from stationary. Had some fun with it on untouched snow in an empty local car park though.


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## RisingPower (Sep 21, 2007)

millns84 said:


> That might have something to do with the legal requirement over there to fit winter or all season tyres in winter conditions :thumb:


Sooo a rear wheel drive bmw isn't poor in cold weather conditions like the op may suggest?


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## millns84 (Jul 5, 2009)

RisingPower said:


> Sooo a rear wheel drive bmw isn't poor in cold weather conditions like the op may suggest?


With the only caveat being if it's fitted with winter/all season tyres then yes, which seems to be the view of the majority in the thread :thumb:


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## 182_Blue (Oct 25, 2005)

Soul boy 68 said:


> It's a possibility Shaun, just putting some feelers out here as I have never driven one, but I will test one out at some point, maybe in the winter :lol:


You have a PM :thumb:


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## RisingPower (Sep 21, 2007)

millns84 said:


> With the only caveat being if it's fitted with winter/all season tyres then yes, which seems to be the view of the majority in the thread :thumb:


Imho it's perfectly manageable where there really aren't any significant hills on summer tyres also, but I'd probably opt for winter tyres where conditions were more harsh and the hills more incline.


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## Rayaan (Jun 1, 2014)

It wasn't too bad in the M5 I had. I just used to keep summer tyres on and stick 2 25kg bags of coal in the boot. 

But - I only went on bus routes in the M5 in winter though because they're mostly gritted.


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## millns84 (Jul 5, 2009)

RisingPower said:


> Imho it's perfectly manageable where there really aren't any significant hills on summer tyres also, but I'd probably opt for winter tyres where conditions were more harsh and the hills more incline.


Agreed, also whether or not you're in a rural area would be worth considering. I'm over in Buxton quite often and probably wouldn't even consider it without suitable tyres when it gets bad...


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## Laurie.J.M (Jun 23, 2011)

RisingPower said:


> Here's one thought for you, do you honestly believe germany has a milder climate? Yet somehow they seem to be able to manage.


True, having spent a week in Munich last winter I can testify that it's very cold and snows a lot in Germany, but they're required to fit winter tyres and are generally much better prepared than we are.

It's also worth adding that whilst BMW's and Mercs with X-Drive/4-matic are fairly new here German and American markets have had them for ages.


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## RisingPower (Sep 21, 2007)

millns84 said:


> Agreed, also whether or not you're in a rural area would be worth considering. I'm over in Buxton quite often and probably wouldn't even consider it without suitable tyres when it gets bad...


Buxton has hills. Cambridgeshire has bumps. We call 100m above sea level high.

Rural area or not, they're ****ing hopeless at keeping the roads clear.


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## Lugy (Nov 4, 2009)

Back in the 'bad' winter of '09/'10 I dropped my Discovery in favour of an E30 BMW, I bought it wearing skinny tyres (185s IIRC) and it would go anywhere in the snow, a week later I fitted some wider wheels and it became hopeless!
That said, I've got 255 summer tyres on the back of my 7 series and it coped nicely in the 2 days of snow last year.


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## Soul boy 68 (Sep 8, 2013)

Blackroc said:


> Run Flat Tyres = dreadful snow performance (people stop to marvel that you can't get up the smallest incline)
> 
> Proper Tyres = better but still not great
> 
> ...


So is winter tyres really the answer to a RWD BMW's problem?


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## Andy from Sandy (May 6, 2011)

I have been driving BMWs now for 15 years and cover approximately 12000 per year. I have never had any trouble getting about. I have never used a winter tyre.

The diesel engine generates a lot of torque. If you dump the clutch you will get wheel spin.

Take it easy and be gentle is my advise. When you see cars approaching a hill just hang back so you get a clear run at it. Any car stopped on an incline is going to have trouble getting started.


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## Soul boy 68 (Sep 8, 2013)

m1pui said:


> I had T1-R's on my RX8 when I had it. Had an RX300 on winters so didn't warrant getting a set of winters for the Maz. Took it out a few times in the snow/slush and it was generally fine on the flat (would obviously slip a bit if you were over generous with the throttle) and slight inclines if you were moving, but struggled on steeper ones and also if I'd had to pull away from stationary. Had some fun with it on untouched snow in an empty local car park though.


I don't mean to sound ignorant but what is the term flat mean?


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## Blackroc (Dec 10, 2012)

Soul boy 68 said:


> So is winter tyres really the answer to a RWD BMW's problem?


Only you can answer that my friend!

To us, where we live, the journeys we took absolutely it was! I was driving 1000 miles a week in rural and motorway choices. Remember it's not just the starting and getting going that winter tyres help with, it's the stopping too!

If you can work from home, or have very little hills near you then the answer (for maybe a few weeks a year of serious cold weather) maybe no they aren't necessary..


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## Soul boy 68 (Sep 8, 2013)

Blackroc said:


> Only you can answer that my friend!
> 
> To us, where we live, the journeys we took absolutely it was! I was driving 1000 miles a week in rural and motorway choices. Remember it's not just the starting and getting going that winter tyres help with, it's the stopping too!
> 
> If you can work from home, or have very little hills near you then the answer (for maybe a few weeks a year of serious cold weather) maybe no they aren't necessary..


That will help as where I live there are no hills or steep roads. So I guess its just about going easy on the throttle and brake gently just like you would in a FWD.


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## Soul boy 68 (Sep 8, 2013)

Blackroc said:


> Only you can answer that my friend!
> 
> To us, where we live, the journeys we took absolutely it was! I was driving 1000 miles a week in rural and motorway choices. Remember it's not just the starting and getting going that winter tyres help with, it's the stopping too!
> 
> If you can work from home, or have very little hills near you then the answer (for maybe a few weeks a year of serious cold weather) maybe no they aren't necessary..


That's good as where I live there are no hills or steep roads so I guess with a RWD it's a case of going easy on the throttle, brake gently as you would on a FWD drive car.


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## CoOkIeMoNsTeR (Mar 6, 2011)

I took the DB9 out in the snow at the start of the year and I drove my 1980 911 SC in all weathers 110 miles a day for 6 years and I never had a problem; then again the engine is on top of the driven wheels in the Porsche but it has no power steering, no abs, no traction control of any kind, staggered rear tyres, very little weight over the front and a gearknob that had a habit of coming off in your hand!!!

The DB9 was like driving any other car in the snow tbh, it's very planted but that's probably also because it very heavy! 2128kgs to be exact! There's no wonder it rolls a bit when you corner at 140 mph haha. I was filling it up and someone came over and said you must be mad using a car like that in this weather. When I asked him if he'd rather walk the 20 miles home he changed his tune. Mind you, it was -1 and starting to snow and the car was filthy dirty with snow at the time lol.

The only BMW I've ever driven in bad weather was an E46 330d auto touring in really heavy snow and ice and it was fine, right up to the moment I did a hill start over a wet grid! I allowed it to roll back a bit and it was fine then. I used to drive V12 Mercs and Jags year round as well


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## m1pui (Jul 24, 2009)

Soul boy 68 said:


> I don't mean to sound ignorant but what is the term flat mean?


As in on a flat bit of road. Not a hill or incline.


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## Blackmondie (Mar 13, 2011)

I have mine on summer tyres all winter and prefer it over my fwd car. The computer takes over before anything can happen. I have seen more trouble with fwd cars than with rwd.
People who claim they are dangerous and bad, are people who have never really driven one. But they heared it, so they're saying it aswell


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## baxlin (Oct 8, 2007)

I think the transmission is also very important, years ago I had an automatic RWD Carlton, the worst car I have driven in snow/ice, yet my manual Mercedes C220 diesel was no problem.

At least with my current auto Lexus, there is a "snow" setting, or I can use the flappy paddle option to select a higher gear than the auto would choose.


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## Alex_225 (Feb 7, 2008)

I'm anticipating my CLS63 to be pretty useless if it snowed, being an auto, RWD and having 285/30/19s fitted! 

That said any other conditions don't phase me really as snow is the only condition I'd avoid in it. I don't rely on my car day to day so I doubt it'll end up in the rain much let alone snow.

Had to get my mums SportKa back home after it had to be left somewhere and that was excellent fine in the snow.

As said I'm sure tyres make a huge difference so for those commuting by car winter tyres could be invaluable.


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## horico (Jul 17, 2010)

I'll leave this here!






aaaannnd...


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## should_do_more (Apr 30, 2008)

I roll out this story every year so sorry in advance...

I couldn't drive my Boxster up a slight incline because the tyres for summer are basically slicks and you can't turn off the traction control fully.

I stuck on winter tyres, never had a problem since.

BMW, whatever, all the same story. The only thing I wish the dealers selling these made clear up front is that you really do need winter tyres too.

Have a look at the tyre patterns on these cars and that shows.

I've driven hundreds of performance cars thousands of miles and for many years.

Either that or for winter get a very light f by wheel drive car with skinny tyres!


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## Rayaan (Jun 1, 2014)

baxlin said:


> I think the transmission is also very important, years ago I had an automatic RWD Carlton, the worst car I have driven in snow/ice, yet my manual Mercedes C220 diesel was no problem.
> 
> At least with my current auto Lexus, there is a "snow" setting, or I can use the flappy paddle option to select a higher gear than the auto would choose.


You don't want to use the paddles on the IS in snow, it doesn't do anything.

Best option in snow is eco mode and snow mode together. The eco mode will dampen throttle response down. If the IS snow mode is anything like the one in the RX, it should be good even on summer tyres. I went up an icy hill on summer tyres with the RX, its now on all seasons.

But the wife's IS is on summers and should be fine with snow mode and eco mode together. Ive never changed to winters since I began driving 16 years ago.


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## davo3587 (May 9, 2012)

I had a e36 325 coupe for 9 years and loved it, even when i put 18's on it with dunlop sport maxx the car was no issue. Still miss it now.


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## m1pui (Jul 24, 2009)

Rayaan said:


> You don't want to use the paddles on the IS in snow, it doesn't do anything.
> 
> Best option in snow is eco mode and snow mode together. The eco mode will dampen throttle response down. If the IS snow mode is anything like the one in the RX, it should be good even on summer tyres. I went up an icy hill on summer tyres with the RX, its now on all seasons.
> 
> But the wife's IS is on summers and should be fine with snow mode and eco mode together. Ive never changed to winters since I began driving 16 years ago.


My RX went anywhere I tried it on regular tyres (Bridgestone Duellers, I think, and then Pirelli Scorpion STR). I only went for a set of winters on it because of price and curiosity.

Pulling away I noticed barely any difference, cornering felt more surefooted, but it was the braking where the difference was massively noticeable. Had to really stamp on the brakes, as if I were making an emergency stop, to make the ABS kick in. Normal driving and it would just pull up tidily as if it was clear tarmac.


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## Soul boy 68 (Sep 8, 2013)

horico said:


> I'll leave this here!
> 
> BMW M3 / RWD vs other cars in a snow race - Winter tyre vs summer tyres - YouTube
> 
> ...


I'm sold on this, but how would you go about storing summer tyers in winter and what about transporting summer tyers from the garage after a change over to and from your home? It's not as if you can put four tyers in the back of your car.


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## m1pui (Jul 24, 2009)

Soul boy 68 said:


> I'm sold on this, but how would you go about storing summer tyers in winter and what about transporting summer tyers from the garage after a change over to and from your home? It's not as if you can put four tyers in the back of your car.


What kind of car are you looking at too? Barring a 2 seater cab, most should be able to squeeze 4 tyres in somewhere.

Do you have a garage or shed?

If not have a look and see if there's any places that offer tyre hotel/storage facilities.

Get a set of tyre bags too http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Richbrook...892900?hash=item46194881a4:g:oiMAAOSwAL9UfFdG

I'm sure these will be adjustable so will fit, for example, from 13-18" wheels as opposed to being size specific. The guy has loads for sale
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/4-X-ALLOY...hash=item5d366bbad4:m:muJ6hAwNn8g1cPWljkKOrQQ


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## Soul boy 68 (Sep 8, 2013)

m1pui said:


> What kind of car are you looking at too? Barring a 2 seater cab, most should be able to squeeze 4 tyres in somewhere.
> 
> Do you have a garage or shed?
> 
> ...


Thank you very much fella, you've been a BIG help. :thumb:


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## Cookies (Dec 10, 2008)

Good thread SB! 

As you know, I've had winter tyres for both our cars for about 8 years now. Wouldn't be without them. 

A friend has a 320d and couldn't get out of our park at all in the bad winter of 2009/10. I have him a few lifts and he was genuinely impressed with the winter tyres. 

He ended up buying a set of rims and tyres for his 320d and has never had an issue in the snow since. 

Last winter we actually drove past a neighbour in his CRV who was having bother but getting up the hill very slowly. 

It's all about the rubber chum.

Cooks


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