# Aminos or Protein



## JMorty (Apr 25, 2011)

So, which is it for you?

I had always been a Protein Shake guy. Mainly from an availability and cost point of view. By cost I mean I could get away with the cheaper ones as I could do with the calories when I start.

But now I'm on the BCAA's I feel like I'm making really good (lean) gains, little to no DOMS and I can train same muscle groups 2+ times a week!

I am thinking of going Whey and BCAA just to bulk out the carbs etc and protein of course.

What are everyone else's findings/feelings?

Ta,

Morty


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## davies20 (Feb 22, 2009)

I always thought these supplemented each other - not one or the other.

everydays a learning day


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## muzzer (Feb 13, 2011)

davies20 said:


> I always thought these supplemented each other - not one or the other.
> 
> everydays a learning day


So i am reliably informed, they do. Oh and whey is protein as far as i can remember


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## JMorty (Apr 25, 2011)

So basically, protein is made up of amino acids. In theory, protein needs to be broken down into its amino acid parts, then the body picks the aminos it needs to build muscle.
The two potential problems with that is.
1. Takes energy to break the protein down.
2. The time between break down and availability, the body breaks down muscle to make amino acids available for the new muscle to be built.

So, in theory, Aminos save time and energy. Reduced DOMS and quicker recovery...

That's the theory/science behind it anyway


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## JMorty (Apr 25, 2011)

muzzer42 said:


> So i am reliably informed, they do. Oh and whey is protein as far as i can remember


That's what I thought, i may get back on the Whey as well. Or a new type anyway.

The only 'problem', and it's a small one, is that Whey is a milk protein and not the easily absorbed protein as we're not yet evolved enough to efficiently break it down.

Still works for sure but meat protein is better for sure.


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## Kimo (Jun 7, 2013)

I noticed a much better rate of recovery using bcaa but was feeling sick all the time, stopped using them and now don't feel sick half as much 

Think I'll try again in case it was just a blip tho


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## muzzer (Feb 13, 2011)

JMorty said:


> That's what I thought, i may get back on the Whey as well. Or a new type anyway.
> 
> The only 'problem', and it's a small one, is that Whey is a milk protein and not the easily absorbed protein as we're not yet evolved enough to efficiently break it down.
> 
> Still works for sure but meat protein is better for sure.


I can put you in contact with someone who can explain it so much better and can recommend the best products for you, if you want me too.


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## JMorty (Apr 25, 2011)

Kimo said:


> I noticed a much better rate of recovery using bcaa but was feeling sick all the time, stopped using them and now don't feel sick half as much
> 
> Think I'll try again in case it was just a blip tho


I'm feeling pretty bad week 7 in, may have to change flavour. Blue raspberry...nuff said



muzzer42 said:


> I can put you in contact with someone who can explain it so much better and can recommend the best products for you, if you want me too.


That was fairly simplified but would be good to chew the fat about this, would love to get in touch.


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## Mattwilko92 (Aug 4, 2008)

You will get very VERY varied views on an amino forum.

My personal advice after been in sucked into supplement marketing over the last 24 months is to, eat well , train hard, take multi vitamins + omega 3 joint care and with hard work you will see results.


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## muzzer (Feb 13, 2011)

JMorty said:


> I'm feeling pretty bad week 7 in, may have to change flavour. Blue raspberry...nuff said
> 
> That was fairly simplified but would be good to chew the fat about this, would love to get in touch.


Not a problem, i'll give him a heads up to let him know you might be in touch


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## davies20 (Feb 22, 2009)

this is interesting.

I'll probably look a *** because I haven't googled this...

But I thought the amino were like the transport as such for the proteins. Be interesting to see what the differences/ similarities are.


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## scottk7 (Jul 7, 2014)

JMorty said:


> That's what I thought, i may get back on the Whey as well. Or a new type anyway.
> 
> The only 'problem', and it's a small one, is that Whey is a milk protein and not the easily absorbed protein as we're not yet evolved enough to efficiently break it down.
> 
> Still works for sure but meat protein is better for sure.


http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/protein-bio-availability-explained.htm

Protein Source	Bio-Availability Index
Whey Protein Isolate Blends	100-159
Whey Concentrate	104
Whole Egg	100
Cow's Milk	91
Egg White	88
Fish	83
Beef	80
Chicken	79
Casein	77
Rice	74
Soy	59
Wheat	54
Beans	49
Peanuts	43


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## JMorty (Apr 25, 2011)

scottk7 said:


> http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/protein-bio-availability-explained.htm
> 
> Protein SourceBio-Availability Index
> Whey Protein Isolate Blends100-159
> ...


I stand corrected. Turns out milk protein is...whey better than meat.

I'll get my coat.


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## jbguitarking (Oct 5, 2011)

Eat real food, it's not hard, I'm consuming 200+ grams of protein everyday from whole food sources. I haven't had a protein shake in around 2 months and tbh I feel better than when I was taking them.

I take some Aminos during my work out, do they do anything, probably not but they taste better than water.


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## JMorty (Apr 25, 2011)

Wow, that's pretty incredible!!

I'd love to hear your recipes if you'd care to share? Can PM if you prefer.

I've been looking at upping my vit/mineral intake too so things like:
Whey, egg whites, banana, oats and frozen berries as a shake.

If I get up the courage, I'll let you know how it goes. lol

I'm getting around:
165g protein
495g carbohydrates
73g fats

I'd like to up the protein and carbs a bit, bare in mind that protein figure doesn't take into account the BCAA's. Not protein, I know, but still goes towards the muscle food amount in the end.


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## horico (Jul 17, 2010)

It's in your head.

You only need to supplement with BCAA's if you're training fasted, so first thing in the morning or after several hrs in the day without food. At all other times, there's protein being used from your last meal, be it whole food or whey. And whey is just another food type.

Leucine iirc is the amino that does the business and there's plenty in whey. If using BCAA's makes you lift more, that's your brain telling you to train harder. You could argue it's worth it just for that.


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## JMorty (Apr 25, 2011)

horico said:


> It's in your head.
> 
> You only need to supplement with BCAA's if you're training fasted, so first thing in the morning or after several hrs in the day without food. At all other times, there's protein being used from your last meal, be it whole food or whey. And whey is just another food type.
> 
> Leucine iirc is the amino that does the business and there's plenty in whey. If using BCAA's makes you lift more, that's your brain telling you to train harder. You could argue it's worth it just for that.


So worth it.

I do feel like I've never trained harder.

Also helped along with Creatine.

How do we all feel about Creatine? I used to feel it was a crutch but I'm on my first 8 week on since I last used it years ago and it's helping break PB's all over the place.


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## horico (Jul 17, 2010)

JMorty said:


> So worth it.
> 
> I do feel like I've never trained harder.
> 
> ...


Creatine has more studies proving it works than anything else. But as you say, the effect in your mind is likely more powerful for some. Same with pre workouts with beta alanine in. The tingles that result might get you working harder but one hit of beta alanine is useless. You need to dose intra daily every day for it to work.

I don't feel any particular way about creatine, I just know it works so use it.

Check out www.examine.com - a good place to start on supps.


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## jbguitarking (Oct 5, 2011)

This how I get my protein in - 2x mince beef with rice meals - roughly 55grams of protein each so thats already 110g. 1 can of tuna - 30 grams, 1 packet of pre-cooked chicken breast - 30 grams, 1 high protein yoghurt - 17 grams.

So roughly all together just from that its 190grams of protein, then theres the minute amount found in the bread I use for the tuna sandwhich and in the cereal I eat for breakfast.

Pretty easy to be honest mate, don't get hung up on chicken haha, I hate the stuff!


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## JMorty (Apr 25, 2011)

jbguitarking said:


> This how I get my protein in - 2x mince beef with rice meals - roughly 55grams of protein each so thats already 110g. 1 can of tuna - 30 grams, 1 packet of pre-cooked chicken breast - 30 grams, 1 high protein yoghurt - 17 grams.
> 
> So roughly all together just from that its 190grams of protein, then theres the minute amount found in the bread I use for the tuna sandwhich and in the cereal I eat for breakfast.
> 
> Pretty easy to be honest mate, don't get hung up on chicken haha, I hate the stuff!


Good work on that, 200 is a pretty good level.

Are you working on an Xg of protein per kg of lean body weight?

I'm looking to hit 1.8g.


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## jbguitarking (Oct 5, 2011)

Just hitting 1xgram per lbs of lean body weight. Think if I did 1.5x then I'd probably have a tougher time and would definitely need the protein shakes to bump me up.


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## Bulkhead (Oct 17, 2007)

I usually steer clear of these kinds of discussion, mainly due to people having very strong views that are not based on scientific evidence. Without wishing to blow my own trumpet, I'm a doctor and my research is based around nutritional biochemistry so I'd like to think I know my stuff and am in no way influenced by the huge market in nutritional supplements. Much hype surrounds the area of nutrition and exercise performance so I'll keep things simple. Firstly, let's look at the quality of protein. You may have heard of essential vs. non-essential amino acids. Well, protein is a huge polymer made up of monomers called amino acids. Some we can synthesise and these are called non-essential. However, some we cannot synthesise and need a dietary source - these are called essential amino acids. These amino acids are: histidine, isoleucine, leucine, lysine, methionine, phenylalanine, threonine, tryptophan, and valine. Of these, the most important for muscle growth are leucine, isoleucine and valine. Any supplement should have these amino acids included. 

When you eat protein, your digestive system has to break the large protein chains down into amino acids - you can absorb amino acids, dipeptides and tripeptides into gut epithelial tissue but only as single amino acids can they pass into the blood and make their way to the liver. This takes time due to the huge size of the average protein molecule. Therefore, single amino acids should, in theory, be absorbed faster. However, size is not the only factor involved. Gastric emptying - the speed at which contents in the stomach are expelled into the start of the small intestine - is influenced by physical factors such as chemical make up of the contents (protein, carbs, fats etc.), temperature and endocrine factors. Your digestive system is also very efficient at chemically digesting proteins. So essentially, it is very difficult to quantify the effectiveness of amino acids over protein or peptide-based supplements. Other factors play a major role too as it's one thing for the amino acids to be in the blood, but quite another for them to gain access into cells where they are needed. Carbohydrate facilitates the absorption of amino acids into cells as it induced the secretion of insulin. This opens up co-transporter channels in the cell membrane and allows amino acids to pass into cells where they can be used for anabolic processes. Even then, the system is influenced by endocrine factors such as testosterone and growth hormone/insulin-like growth factor. Adequate rest after sessions also helps as this facilitates the parasympathetic nervous system to be influential and so promote digestion and absorption of nutrients. If you remain in a physically-stressed condition, you will delay this function.

Another commonly-held belief is the quantity of protein required per day. Even those with developed skeletal muscle only require around 1-1.5g / kg body weight of protein. Any additional protein will be de-aminated by the liver. The nitrogen-containing component is converted to urea and uric acid and is excreted via the kidney. The rest, essentially carbon, hydrogen and oxygen is converted into triglycerides - fat molecules - and stored as such. The increased nitrogen load may also place extra stress on the kidneys, although there is little evidence to suggest healthy kidneys struggle with this.

So the conclusion is:

1. Any supplement should contain leucine, isoleucine and valine.
2. A source of carbs, preferably fairly high GI, will facilitate absorption of amino acids into cells.
3. Do not exceed the recommended amount of protein as it will only result in more nitrogenous waste and more fat.
4. Amino acids and peptides (shortened protein chains) may be absorbed faster but in real terms, are probably not going to be noticeable (a strong placebo effect occurs due to the cost of these). 
5. If you're mixing your protein powder with milk/water, don't used cold as it slows down the passage through the stomach. 
6. Get plenty of rest as this is when digestion, absorption and anabolic processes occur.

Finally, don't get sucked in by the advertising hype or celebrity endorsements. A good protein powder should have a high protein content - usually around 70-75%. This may be lower if it's a recovery-designed powder with a source of carbohydrate but always look at the nutritional info on the back. 

Apologies for the ramble but a lot of people get seriously ripped-off. If possible, a normal suitable meal just after training is just as good if you can get it down quickly.


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## JMorty (Apr 25, 2011)

Bulkhead said:


> I usually steer clear of these kinds of discussion, mainly due to people having very strong views that are not based on scientific evidence.
> 
> ...
> 
> ...


Now this is the reason I started the thread. Both an opinion and knowledge share and there is some fantastic knowledge here!

Thanks for posting this!!!

I'm glad that some of my choices, based on what facts I did have, were in the right direction.

With this information though, I will probably head back to protein. Seeing as we're so good at dealing with it!

p.s. I hope you don't mind me quoting, what I thought was the pertinent points? It was a hell of a post to quote otherwise lol


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## chrissymk3 (Jul 6, 2015)

Mint advice above!


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## horico (Jul 17, 2010)

Bulkhead - Two questions...I won't quote as that will waste a lot of space.

1. Carbs after training for recovery?
2. Are you saying you need protein as soon as possible after a training bout?

Cheers


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## Bulkhead (Oct 17, 2007)

horico said:


> Bulkhead - Two questions...I won't quote as that will waste a lot of space.
> 
> 1. Carbs after training for recovery?
> 2. Are you saying you need protein as soon as possible after a training bout?
> ...


Research shows that there is an optimum period for ingestion of protein after exercise in order to maximise the effects. This is around 30 mins post exercise. This is the reason why protein supplements are used as most people cannot get home, cook and eat a meal in this time. The effects of protein ingestion diminish the longer you leave it. Carbohydrate ingestion after exercise serves two purposes. As our primary energy source, it replaces lost energy used during exercise. It also helps the amino acids to be absorbed into cells via the release of insulin from the pancreas. When blood glucose concentration increases, as it will after carbohydrate ingestion and absorption, insulin is released and has the effect of opening glucose channels on cell membranes. This permits the entry of glucose into cells but also facilitates the entry of amino acids. This is the reason why some bodybuilders inject insulin after a workout - don't try it, it put many in a hypoglycaemic coma! So after exercise, protein taken with high G.I carbs will maximise its absorption into cells. If you look at the post-exercise nutritional supplements designed for recovery, they'll almost all have both protein and carbohydrate in them. If you're concerned about the intake of carbohydrates, you can limit the rest of the day's intake in both quantity and glycaemic index (low G.I preferably).


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## alan hanson (May 21, 2008)

Bulkhead said:


> 5. If you're mixing your protein powder with milk/water, don't used cold as it slows down the passage through the stomach.


will change that from today (though guessing a shake after work out and before bed isnt too bad?

thank you for the very helpful post


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## muzzer (Feb 13, 2011)

A quick query regarding eating carbs high on GI index, doesn't that potentially lead to obesity, heart disease and diabetes due to the high sugar or sucrose content?


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## horico (Jul 17, 2010)

Bulkhead said:


> Research shows that there is an optimum period for ingestion of protein after exercise in order to maximise the effects. This is around 30 mins post exercise. This is the reason why protein supplements are used as most people cannot get home, cook and eat a meal in this time. The effects of protein ingestion diminish the longer you leave it. Carbohydrate ingestion after exercise serves two purposes. As our primary energy source, it replaces lost energy used during exercise. It also helps the amino acids to be absorbed into cells via the release of insulin from the pancreas. When blood glucose concentration increases, as it will after carbohydrate ingestion and absorption, insulin is released and has the effect of opening glucose channels on cell membranes. This permits the entry of glucose into cells but also facilitates the entry of amino acids. This is the reason why some bodybuilders inject insulin after a workout - don't try it, it put many in a hypoglycaemic coma! So after exercise, protein taken with high G.I carbs will maximise its absorption into cells. If you look at the post-exercise nutritional supplements designed for recovery, they'll almost all have both protein and carbohydrate in them. If you're concerned about the intake of carbohydrates, you can limit the rest of the day's intake in both quantity and glycaemic index (low G.I preferably).


Research shows that there's no specific data indicating an optimum period pre and post training for protein intake. The experts such as alan aragon and brad schoenfeld say just this. The 'best guess' right now is to hit a good pre and post workout meal with protein to cover bases. Search 'alan aragon post workout nutrition' on Google.

For hypertrophy, the high go carbs PWO isn't needed unless you are training for hours, such as long distance running or having multiple sessions per day. You simply won't exhaust glycogen otherwise. As for the protein getting there faster - it's not a 30 minute window, it's mor e like several hours with the first meal PWO being 'extra' anabolic.

As for GI, just eating one more food with something will alter the net GI so it's not all it's cracked up to be. With the greatest respect (genuinely), your advice seems to be broscience regurgitated with some fancy words and reference to internal body function.


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## horico (Jul 17, 2010)

muzzer42 said:


> A quick query regarding eating carbs high on GI index, doesn't that potentially lead to obesity, heart disease and diabetes due to the high sugar or sucrose content?


If you have a crap diet, eat sugary foods and not much else over years then yes, that's bad. A balanced diet with a variety of foods is better in the long run.

As said above, GI is a bit of a smokescreen as food combinations will actually drastically modify the net GI of the meal.


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## JMorty (Apr 25, 2011)

Right, let's keep this to opinions about protein/amino usage and not opinions about advice if we could chaps.

All here to help, not hinder! :thumb:


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## Bulkhead (Oct 17, 2007)

horico said:


> Research shows that there's no specific data indicating an optimum period pre and post training for protein intake. The experts such as alan aragon and brad schoenfeld say just this. The 'best guess' right now is to hit a good pre and post workout meal with protein to cover bases. Search 'alan aragon post workout nutrition' on Google.
> 
> For hypertrophy, the high go carbs PWO isn't needed unless you are training for hours, such as long distance running or having multiple sessions per day. You simply won't exhaust glycogen otherwise. As for the protein getting there faster - it's not a 30 minute window, it's mor e like several hours with the first meal PWO being 'extra' anabolic.
> 
> As for GI, just eating one more food with something will alter the net GI so it's not all it's cracked up to be. With the greatest respect (genuinely), your advice seems to be broscience regurgitated with some fancy words and reference to internal body function.


As I said, this is exactly why I don't usually respond to these posts! Proper, scientific studies regarding meal timings are referenced below:

Cribb, Paul J and Hayes, Alan (2006) Effects of Supplement-Timing and Resistance Exercise on Skeletal Muscle Hypertrophy. Medicine & Science in Sports & Exercise, 38 (11). pp. 1918-1925. ISSN 0195-9131

Deanna K. Levenhagen, Jennifer D. Gresham, Michael G. Carlson, David J. Maron, Myfanwy J. Borel, Paul J. Flakoll
American Journal of Physiology - Endocrinology and Metabolism Published 1 June 2001 Vol. 280 no. 6

I checked the journals Alan Aragon publishes in and they have an exceptionally low impact factor, which basically means they'll take anything written! Regarding carbohydrate intake, I mentioned that this wasn't to replace lost glycogen from skeletal muscle and the liver. As I said, it facilitates the absorption of protein into cells via insulin. A small amount of high G.I carbohydrate - low G.I will not cause a significant release of insulin - will help to get the amino acids into cells where there are needed for anabolic processes. As skeletal muscle cells experience a depletion of glycogen during exercise, they are very receptive to glucose intake post-exercise. If my reply is seen as Bioscience with some fancy words, it's because that's exactly what it is. But backed up by years of research and publications in high impact factor scientific journals. Human nutrition and metabolism is not something you can be an expert in by reading a copy of Flex or doing a quick search on google. It's taken me 20 years and I am nowhere near knowing everything. Just to hammer this point home, anabolic metabolism is also subject to the degree of tissue damage and the subsequent release of pro-inflammatory cytokines such as interleukins (sorry, fancy word alert!). These also play a huge role in physical adaptation and will be covered in research being published recently. Probably won't make it onto the pages of Muscle Mag though!! Sorry mods if this has gone of topic. I won't post again as I've said my piece. :wave:


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## horico (Jul 17, 2010)

I'm not trying to convince anyone one way or the other although to dismiss aragon appears a little short sighted given his knowledge in this area and one who welcomes new data and will modify his recommendations of presented with good evidence.

We may well be off topic but the discussion is important to show that folk need to ask questions and not just go along with what someone tells them.

The first study you linked is just one one. A recent meta analysis by aragon and schoenfield examined 20 studies including the one above and found the results not to be clear cut. 

We can argue all day about who's right or wrong, I would suggest I'll never win as I'm not a doctor or even in a relevant field but I would hope others reading this would look at things more closely or ask a few more questions before following advice put put on a detailing forum about nutrition! 

I know I sound like a fan boy bit if you know much better than those I've referred to, maybe you could debate them directly and let us know how you get on? Poor Gary tubes didn't do very well recently so maybe you could have a go? :thumb::thumb:


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## muzzer (Feb 13, 2011)

Ok, this has gone off topic somewhat so lets keep it on track please.


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## readytogocable (Aug 19, 2015)

I must say that the topic is very good and informative. I have learned many new ideas about protein.
So thanks for this wonderful information that you all shared.


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