# The beginning of the end - RIP the thril of driving!



## Bero (Mar 9, 2008)

News of black boxes being fitted to all new ****ron C1

http://www.pistonheads.com/news/default.asp?storyId=27152

A sad day and one I'd been trying to tell myself would not come in the near future. 

But insurers want it, govt want it, and some deluded people are asking for it.

This will be the thin edge of the wedge......tax for using toll roads......fined for speeding......effectively fined by your insurer for standing on the brakes to prevent hitting a kid/deer or swerving from alloy killing potholes.

As a matter of principal I would never....as far as humanly possible run a car with one of these. Work spoke about putting them in our cars some time ago (private cars but you're paid an allowance to buy/run it), I would refuse the >£5k a year allowance if they tried to insist and would be happy to pay £1,000 more per year to run a car without one.

Just wait for the UK/EU directive that says all cars need them from X year, then granting access to the data to the govt for extra tax in 'high pollution areas' or 'congested' areas and free access to the info for 'terrorism prevention'.

I'll need to start reading up on how to build a Faraday cadge around a car. :thumb:


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## danwel (Feb 18, 2007)

Shocking news but this will just be the start of it like you say. Once it happens we may as well all be driving 1.0l cars as there will be no need for big engined cars


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## Big Buffer (Jan 1, 2011)

Got to agree with you bero.

Everything is about the money now and alot of guys will see this as a saving.

Those that dont like driving for fun that is


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## Bero (Mar 9, 2008)

willwad82 said:


> Got to agree with you bero.
> 
> Everything is about the money now and alot of guys will see this as a saving.
> 
> Those that dont like driving for fun that is


Sure, everything is about money, its very short sighted of people though (smart if your an insurer), who in their right mind thinks insurers offer this to reduce their profit?

Insurance Advisor: "Hey CEO, I've got a great idea, we have the opportunity to get these new black boxes into peoples cars which will monitor what they do, what I want to do is offer safe drives really cheap insurance."

CEO: "Go on."

Insurance Advisor: "Well you know, this will reduce our profitability somewhat, but......"

CEO: "GTFO, don't stop for your jacket, we'll Fedex it to you!!"

Even if it had no net effect i.e. some people save, some lose and makes no difference to the insurer....the insurer would not spend the time/money/hassle/cost of writing the driving tracking to premium change software and setting up agreements with garage chains to install these.


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## Big Buffer (Jan 1, 2011)

lol That is quite funny mate


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## Alex_225 (Feb 7, 2008)

I can see good and bad points for this, I mean I can't imagine most driving purists would buy a C1 for a nice b-road blast so I'm not phased for this particular model. I assume this is mainly set up for young drivers and I'm not being funny, slowing down some young drivers with the threat of their cr*p driving costing them more is not a bad thing. 

I personally don't see this happening with all cars and being forced on us by manufacturers as they know that if they release something sporty then stick a black box by default people won't buy it. 

My concern is more whether the government force people to put them in their cars or if all new cars end up having to have them. That would be the end of an era.

As much as I'm a firm believer that you can still have fun within the legal limits (national speed limit on a country lane anyone?) we all like to be a bit spirited sometimes.


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## Bero (Mar 9, 2008)

Alex_225 said:


> I can see good and bad points for this, I mean I can't imagine most driving purists would buy a C1 for a nice b-road blast so I'm not phased for this particular model. I assume this is mainly set up for young drivers and I'm not being funny, slowing down some young drivers with the threat of their cr*p driving costing them more is not a bad thing.


Everything starts somewhere, after this what next? What % adoption do we need for this to become 'accepted' and them mandated to all new cars from X date?


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

An extra electronic device on a Citroen.........

You just know it will be another thing to go faulty.


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## bigup (Jun 4, 2009)

wrap the GPS unit in foil...

oh wait.....!


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## robertdon777 (Nov 3, 2005)

If it drops insurance costs by 50% for young people (under 25) then yes it's a good idea.

But that day will come when I see pigs fly. 

The insurance costs will still be high, the companies will claim that they haven't increased the costs as much as they would of done without the boxes. The costs will not decrease.


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## Dixondmn (Oct 12, 2007)

Bero said:


> Sure, everything is about money, its very short sighted of people though (smart if your an insurer), who in their right mind thinks insurers offer this to reduce their profit?
> 
> Insurance Advisor: "Hey CEO, I've got a great idea, we have the opportunity to get these new black boxes into peoples cars which will monitor what they do, what I want to do is offer safe drives really cheap insurance."
> 
> ...


Insurance companies will use the data to prove XYZ and not pay out according to the drivers account of what happened to cause the accident.


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## Alzak (Aug 31, 2010)

Can You see sports car manufactures putting something like that to theirs cars ? 

And effective GPS signal jammer is not to expensive ...


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## Bero (Mar 9, 2008)

Alzak said:


> Can You see sports car manufactures putting something like that to theirs cars ?
> 
> And effective GPS signal jammer is not to expensive ...


Not voluntarily......but if we accept this creeping into cars and the way we do things.........say 30% of new cars have this by 2020, the UK govt (or Europe) may mandate that all new cars sold from from 2025 must have these items, they might even dress it up as a 'prevention of terrorism/easily locate abductor of children' to help push it through.

They would no doubt make a jammer illegal at the same time, just like speed camera jammers or police radios (although I bet they've been better encrypted in modern times).


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## Dixondmn (Oct 12, 2007)

Ditch your technology and run for the hills folks!

honestly, if this comes in I can see people who share our views leaving the UK and moving to Russia or somewhere!


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## WashMitt (May 27, 2010)

I don't mind as I don't speed or break the law and I'd suggest anyone here that has a issue with this is a pedaphile or a terrorist and therefor deserves to get caught!!! 









And back in the real world they've got no hope in hell of putting one of these things in my car!!!


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## nyrB (Jun 15, 2012)

*How many Jags, BMW's, Porsche's & Ferrari's etc would be sold with a black box? I think zero! as what would be the point of spending loads of dosh & not able to use the car's potential & also be watched over by Big Brother. The irony of course is that we the buyer will pay for this technology (bit like a poke in the eye with a sharp stick) "Get my bike out of the shed" lol*


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## B17BLG (Jun 26, 2012)

Won't happen


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## e32chris (Sep 21, 2011)

im more worried about electronics taking over cars, it is already getting to that point the car brakes for you, parks for you etc etc, some ideas are good but others just take away the joy of driving

if you cant parallel park without the car doing it for you you dont deserve to have a licence.


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## Alex_225 (Feb 7, 2008)

Bero said:


> Everything starts somewhere, after this what next? What % adoption do we need for this to become 'accepted' and them mandated to all new cars from X date?


That is true everything does start somewhere but I personally don't think this will become mandatory for all cars.

I know a lad who bought a 1.8 Astra, nicer car and quicker than most of his mates cars. He has a GPS box in it for insurance and pays a lot less than his mates.

I understand the point of insurance companies not wanting to do themselves out of money but if these are proven to mean less payouts they can charge a bit less with X% less likely to pay out.

I just can't picture this happening although I do see your original point Bero. Lets just hope it doesn't come to it being mandatory.


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## Naddy37 (Oct 27, 2005)

Don't know what you lot are getting you panties in a twist for.... 

The e250 has one fitted. Bossess know exactly where I am, where I've been, where I'm going, how long I've been parked for, heavy steering, heavy braking etc, etc.

If I reach a certain, ermmm, speed, it pings an email to the office


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## pharmed (Feb 11, 2013)

Kerr said:


> An extra electronic device on a Citroen.........
> 
> You just know it will be another thing to go faulty.


lol so true :thumb:


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## Scott Harris (Nov 20, 2007)

I've been retro fitting these box's now for 18mths - mainly for new drivers and all the indications are that this technology will be more widely adopted sooner rather than later.


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## downhuman (Mar 25, 2007)

Nothing a GPS jammer won't fix


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## Scott Harris (Nov 20, 2007)

downhuman said:


> Nothing a GPS jammer won't fix


You wouldn't get away with that for too long - the units know they are being jammed.


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## CoOkIeMoNsTeR (Mar 6, 2011)

So how long would it be before my brother, who is 18 got a letter through the post saying
"You owe us £50 cos you revved your car upto 4000rpm, you reckless tw*t!"

He drives a 1.6 diesel 307 and tows a caravan, so heavy throttle use happens sometimes (overtaking a tractor etc).

Pointless tosh. But it isn't the end of the world if only typical young people cars like this get them and they leave the rest of us alone. Don't these asswipes understand you _neeeed_ to rev a Land Rover to make it move and even then the bloody thing isn't what you'd call quick!

I should know, I've has 5 of them :car:


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## downhuman (Mar 25, 2007)

Scott Harris said:


> You wouldn't get away with that for too long - the units know they are being jammed.


Boooo!


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## insanejim69 (Nov 13, 2011)

Really hope this doesn't make it into mainstream cars.  

Every single bus in the Aberdeen bus fleet has had this system fitted for years now. Monitors everything, braking, acceleration, any sudden movements in the bus, location, speed, etc etc. Has helped cut down fuel costs, accident rates and also passeneger injuries no end.

I think its a good system for businesses, especially for the likes of some crazy van drivers !! But for the general public = no. 

James


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## busterbulldog (Sep 5, 2012)

Pistonheads are wrong about it being the first car to have this fitted as standard.
I have one fitted in my Subaru Cosworth CS400,its a standard fit item,nobody monitors it as such,its invalueable in the respect if stolen it can be checked/found.The car also records all driving info in case of a fault warranty issue.If the battery runs low,car gets moved or driven above a speed limit you set it will text u,and ring.As for insurance its a 400bhp car,)0-60 in 3.6 seconds yet I insure it for slightly over £300.If your driving like a prat and cause an accident you deserve to be caught out methinks.As far as I am aware the insurance company do not monitor the car,they asked for no details other than the manufacturer.As a footnote all modern cars have a black box of some sorts that can be used in evidence if need be anyway,my freelanders 8 yrs old and that has one fitted.Read your handbooks guys.


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## possul (Nov 14, 2008)

An ecu can give all this data anyway so in theory it's already being recorded, just not monitored.
If you crash a car, details will be stored anyway, time, date, speed etc etc


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## andy monty (Dec 29, 2007)

nyrB said:


> *How many Jags, BMW's, Porsche's & Ferrari's etc would be sold with a black box? I think zero! as what would be the point of spending loads of dosh & not able to use the car's potential & also be watched over by Big Brother. The irony of course is that we the buyer will pay for this technology (bit like a poke in the eye with a sharp stick) "Get my bike out of the shed" lol*


Wasn't the New Skyline Clarkson drove in japan fitted with one so you could only unleash its full potential if the GPS knew you was on a race track?

Nearly Everyone carries a tracker every day most mobiles now have GPS transceivers in them not to mention the Emergency service / RAC /AA managing to log your location using triangulation from base stations......... (unless you live on the coast)


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## CChris (Jan 7, 2013)

Land Rover have had black box loggers in the airbag control system for years. I think I remember a BBC article on the first prosecution based on evidence from it a few year back, when a RRSport hit a Jeep head on at over 50mph in a 30. The driver killed a baby in the Jeep.

Chris.


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## Bero (Mar 9, 2008)

busterbulldog said:


> Pistonheads are wrong about it being the first car to have this fitted as standard.
> I have one fitted in my Subaru Cosworth CS400,its a standard fit item,nobody monitors it as such,its invalueable in the respect if stolen it can be checked/found.The car also records all driving info in case of a fault warranty issue.If the battery runs low,car gets moved or driven above a speed limit you set it will text u,and ring.As for insurance its a 400bhp car,)0-60 in 3.6 seconds yet I insure it for slightly over £300.If your driving like a prat and cause an accident you deserve to be caught out methinks.As far as I am aware the insurance company do not monitor the car,they asked for no details other than the manufacturer.As a footnote all modern cars have a black box of some sorts that can be used in evidence if need be anyway,my freelanders 8 yrs old and that has one fitted.Read your handbooks guys.


Is that not just a tracker with an added feature or two? You have to pay the subscription for it after a while (after however long is included when bought new).

Standard STis have had that for years....possibly since bugeyes, I definitely have one in my Blob.....but I very different from a system which relays info back to your insurer and potentially govt/police.

Can you elaborate/reference 'all modern cars have a black box of some sorts that can be used in evidence if need be anyway'?

Nice Cossie btw!



possul said:


> An ecu can give all this data anyway so in theory it's already being recorded, just not monitored.
> If you crash a car, details will be stored anyway, time, date, speed etc etc


What cars/where/when/how? Any references other than the one RRover case?



CChris said:


> Land Rover have had black box loggers in the airbag control system for years. I think I remember a BBC article on the first prosecution based on evidence from it a few year back, when a RRSport hit a Jeep head on at over 50mph in a 30. The driver killed a baby in the Jeep.
> 
> Chris.


Interesting read no doubt just supporting evidence in this case rather than than something the prosecution made their case on. Interestingly it was not measuring speed, but other parameters recorded during the crash which were used to estimate it.....had they been spotted doing 120mph on a motorway maybe there is nothing in the data that could be used to confirm the speed.


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## TubbyTwo (Apr 14, 2011)

andy monty said:


> Wasn't the New Skyline Clarkson drove in japan fitted with one so you could only unleash its full potential if the GPS knew you was on a race track?
> 
> Nearly Everyone carries a tracker every day most mobiles now have GPS transceivers in them not to mention the Emergency service / RAC /AA managing to log your location using triangulation from base stations......... (unless you live on the coast)


Yep, and look at it now. Nissans seemingly uncrackable software on the GTR to prevent tuning.....

There is always a way round, its just a matter of time 

I would never, ever, ever have one of these fitted to any car I own, I already pay excessive amounts for insurance, fuel, VED etc why do they need to know how I drive as well?

I would rather walk, wonder if these will eventually apply to bikes as well?


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## possul (Nov 14, 2008)

Bero said:


> What cars/where/when/how? Any references other than the one RRover
> /QUOTE]
> 
> everytime a car gets a fault it has enviromental conditions, which states when it happend
> ...


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## Laurie.J.M (Jun 23, 2011)

andy monty said:


> *Wasn't the New Skyline Clarkson drove in japan fitted with one so you could only unleash its full potential if the GPS knew you was on a race track?*
> 
> Nearly Everyone carries a tracker every day most mobiles now have GPS transceivers in them not to mention the Emergency service / RAC /AA managing to log your location using triangulation from base stations......... (unless you live on the coast)


Part of that is to do with the fact that all cars sold in Japan have to be restricted to 180kph (about 110mph) which is obviously not much good if you want to take a car as fast as the GTR on a track.


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