# Why I like Paint Cleaners so much....



## Bigpikle (May 21, 2007)

I think paint cleaners are probably my favourite types of products, and under rated and discussed, in favour of LSP's all the time 

Got the Audi back after 7 weeks at the dealers, and luckily it was filthy - they didnt once wash it :thumb:

After a wash it was looking very clean but I wanted to treat it to some attention, in the form of a wax with Supernatural, but first it needed a good clean. Lime Prime was ideal, applied by machine as I didnt have a lot of time and wanted maximum cleaning. Menz polishing pad by UDM...










That was just the roof and 2 doors  and the paint looked & felt clean before I started! The dirt being pulled out out the paint was very surprising, especially given I fully detailed it about 12 weeks ago and it hasnt moved the last 7 of those.

Good cleaners like LP, P21S/R222, Lusso, Victoria and SP or an AIO like Poli-Seal or Z-AIO etc just seem to bring out that little extra in a finish, as well as such a great finish for waxing. I look after a silver Skoda and the pop in the finish after a good once over with a good cleaner is superb - I think every owner of a silver car should be building their collections of paint cleaners more than waxes  I reckon a well maintained car should never need more than a light abrasive cleaner like LP by machine a couple of times a year to keep it pretty much perfect, and avoid the need for any harsher abrasives.

I have no doubt the LP contributed massively to the superb finish a couple of hours later


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## ryanuk (Jun 22, 2007)

that is STUNNING


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## Epoch (Jul 30, 2006)

Heavily underated area, chemical cleaning (especially on some of the orginal exotica)

Nice to see the old girl back and looking right 

EDIT: I do acknowledge that LP has bits in too


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## Detail My Ride (Apr 19, 2006)

LP is one of my favourite products, it is so versatile and never fails to give good results. Audi looks spot on :thumb:


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## Dave KG (Feb 23, 2006)

A good regular way to deep clean paint, without paint loss (in the case of nonabrasive ones), they are very useful to have in the kit bag 

Amazing also how much of a looks enhancement you can get just by getting ingrained grime out of the paint 

Some, eg Lusso, even add a little to the look after machine polishing


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## ads2k (Jul 12, 2006)

Totally agree with you Damon re the paint cleaners. LP is all I've used on all the cars I've done this year, brings somuch correctionor cleaning all depending on how you use it . Have yet to try the new bottle P21s, but may give it ago at the weekend if the weather holds.

Glad the car's back and they didn't wash it :thumb:, is it 'properly' fixed ??


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## mattsbmw (Jul 20, 2008)

I need to use LP and LPL more 

Thanks for a great post


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## mellowfellow (Jul 11, 2009)

Yeah i have wondered about cleaners too . Would panel cleaner that car body shops use not basically do the same thing ? I know they are a solvent , but i was looking for a product that aids cleaning after claying or indeed instead of claying , that will remove fall out etc. 
Isnt the dirt on the pad , just the polish and wax that you have removed and not so much "dirt" or road grime ? I noticed that ONR seems to pull of a lot of grime even after the car has been prewashed with another shampoo, so i was thinking along those lines.


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## Bigpikle (May 21, 2007)

mellowfellow said:


> Yeah i have wondered about cleaners too . Would panel cleaner that car body shops use not basically do the same thing ? I know they are a solvent , but i was looking for a product that aids cleaning after claying or indeed instead of claying , that will remove fall out etc.
> Isnt the dirt on the pad , just the polish and wax that you have removed and not so much "dirt" or road grime ? I noticed that ONR seems to pull of a lot of grime even after the car has been prewashed with another shampoo, so i was thinking along those lines.


I wouldnt use solvents regularly as they can attack the paint over time and cause premature failure. They'll remove old waxes etc but probably not deep clean the paint in the same way. They wont replace claying either but there are chemical decon kits, from FK and others, that do the job, but its a bit of an involved process.

The dirt is all of the old wax etc but is mostly ingrained dirt and grime pulled from the paint surface, by the chemical cleaners of the LP and mechanical action of the pad (and light abrasives in LP) and just cant be done by a wash alone. That was all done after a full ONR wash - ONR and shampoos remove light surface dirt and grime but environmental contamination, fallout etc that bonds more strongly to the paint than dust and mud etc needs much heavier cleaning.

As with all things detailing its all in the prep - invest more time in claying and paint cleaning to get a better finish. Short cuts will likely only leave your finish short of your goal as well IMHO


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## wedgie (Apr 5, 2008)

Great results Damon, you will be glad to have the audi back


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## S63 (Jan 5, 2007)

You used a DA? No advantages to be had using a rotary?


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## scooby73 (Mar 20, 2007)

Used Meguiar's step one paint cleaner (by hand) on my brother's white Y plate Escort van last year. The van had not been washed for at least twelve months, and had never been polished/waxed the five years he'd owned it. 

The difference it made even though i'd clayed it before hand was stunning! Out of the whole detailing process, it was the step that made in the biggest difference.


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## waxy (Feb 27, 2006)

I agree,i like Lime Prime,very versatile.I played around with it on my MK3 Escort,and was very surprised to see what it pulled off 'clean' paint.


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## tfonseca (Jul 31, 2008)

*Bigpikle* did you clay the car before use LP?


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## Bigpikle (May 21, 2007)

S500 said:


> You used a DA? No advantages to be had using a rotary?


yes - but it does take a bit longer and I was a little short of time. LP does have a short work time, but the UDM is much faster just by the fact you dont need as much 'focus' as you use it 



tfonseca said:


> *Bigpikle* did you clay the car before use LP?


didnt need it - was done about 3 months ago and the paint was still smooth after a quick test :thumb:


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## Dream Machines (Mar 13, 2006)

Bigpikle said:


> I wouldnt use solvents regularly as they can attack the paint over time and cause premature failure. They'll remove old waxes etc but probably not deep clean the paint in the same way. They wont replace claying either but there are chemical decon kits, from FK and others, that do the job, but its a bit of an involved process.
> 
> The dirt is all of the old wax etc but is mostly ingrained dirt and grime pulled from the paint surface, by the chemical cleaners of the LP and mechanical action of the pad (and light abrasives in LP) and just cant be done by a wash alone. That was all done after a full ONR wash - ONR and shampoos remove light surface dirt and grime but environmental contamination, fallout etc that bonds more strongly to the paint than dust and mud etc needs much heavier cleaning.
> 
> As with all things detailing its all in the prep - invest more time in claying and paint cleaning to get a better finish. Short cuts will likely only leave your finish short of your goal as well IMHO


Solvents are used in my shop such as De Beer Silicone Remover and PPG Prepsol, Chem Spec Metalux Prep Kleen silicone remover, IPA and my own acid free Paint neutralisation wash which removes all the soft and hard waxes, acid rain, fallout and so forth

I love paint cleaners and my favourites are GLARE Zero and Micro Finish compound, which turns clearcoat into a water like clarity, restores hydration, enhances metal flake pop and can draw out dirt and other grime in the paint pores by opening them with physical and chemical means.

As far as other paint cleaners, what exactly is the formulation
Like what ingredients make a great cleaner.


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## Bigpikle (May 21, 2007)

Dream Machines said:


> As far as other paint cleaners, what exactly is the formulation
> Like what ingredients make a great cleaner.


not sure TBH, as I'm not a chemist and dont know whats in these products?

Would be interesting to know if most use the same active ingredients or if in fact there are a variety of methods used to create a paint cleaner? Some smell oily, 'solventy' while others appear more water based


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## StooR26 (Aug 13, 2009)

Sorry to jump on the thread here guys, bit of a noob, so bear with me

I understand the methods/principles behind the prewash/wash/dry/clay etc

To my knowledge though, i would then go to machine polishing, no?

Would i need to do this stage before hand, or after machine polishing??

Would this leave a better finish?

Sorry for hi-jacking.

Stoo


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## PJS (Aug 18, 2007)

Dream Machines said:


> I love paint cleaners and my favourites are GLARE Zero and Micro Finish compound, which turns clearcoat into a water like clarity, restores hydration, enhances metal flake pop and can draw out dirt and other grime in the paint pores by opening them with physical and chemical means.


No such thing as rehydrating paint - it doesn't lose moisture, like our skin does.
Similar story with "paint pores" - those are microvoids as a result of the offgassing process as it cures. They are not like our skin, and therefore don't open or close like it does when we get warm or cold.
Decontamination by the likes of FK's and others, relies on Oxalic Acid to dissolve or reduce the size of the metallic contaminant, making it flushable from its lodging.
Whilst the paintwork does expand and contract absolutely, depending on temperature, chemicals don't create this same scenario, unless they are exothermic reactions - which I highly doubt.


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## gt5500 (Aug 6, 2008)

PJS said:


> No such thing as rehydrating paint - it doesn't lose moisture, like our skin does.
> Similar story with "paint pores" - those are microvoids as a result of the offgassing process as it cures. They are not like our skin, and therefore don't open or close like it does when we get warm or cold.
> Decontamination by the likes of FK's and others, relies on Oxalic Acid to dissolve or reduce the size of the metallic contaminant, making it flushable from its lodging.
> Whilst the paintwork does expand and contract absolutely, depending on temperature, chemicals don't create this same scenario, unless they are exothermic reactions - which I highly doubt.


Good to hear that from someone with more technical background then myself because when I read that I just heard blah blah blah.... more commonly known as marketing BS.


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## gt5500 (Aug 6, 2008)

Good to see this post, I too believe that cleaners are underrated, how did you find the SP cleanser? I really rate it, it seems to give the effect of plastic wrapping the paint and making it appear brighter. Recently I used it on my wheels and they have section on them that has a sort of rough cast appearance, after using the SP that section seems to be smoother and glossy.


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## Dream Machines (Mar 13, 2006)

PJS said:


> No such thing as rehydrating paint - it doesn't lose moisture, like our skin does.
> Similar story with "paint pores" - those are microvoids as a result of the offgassing process as it cures. They are not like our skin, and therefore don't open or close like it does when we get warm or cold.
> Decontamination by the likes of FK's and others, relies on Oxalic Acid to dissolve or reduce the size of the metallic contaminant, making it flushable from its lodging.
> Whilst the paintwork does expand and contract absolutely, depending on temperature, chemicals don't create this same scenario, unless they are exothermic reactions - which I highly doubt.


when clear coat paint oxidises it becomes opaque and dries out. 
try polishing the surfacewith an abrasive. it won't work very well or for long

Glare Zero or Micro it however and bingo - oxidation gone and paint ultra smooth and without silicone too. then do the abrasive work. it will glide over the surface and have an extremely long working time and be more effective.

all that I post comes from years of trial and error and personal experience, it ain't just hot air.

I can suck heaps of dirt and abrasive oxide out of the paint with Zero and have my pad be totally black a number of times. thats because the very fine pores are filled with the oxide dust.
these products are not oil, water and oxide, they are silicate ions which reflow the paint, deep clean it, soften it and harden it, flatten orange peel and reverse oxidation, not cut it off.

Sulfuric acid, Disodium EDTA and oxalic are some of the ingredients that are in the FK and Auto Int system and they work extremely well. I just decided to find a non acid way to do so. it may not remove all the fallout but it wipes out silicone, acid rain, stains, soft and hard waxes/sealants and cleans it back so that water sits on the paint like a puddle and won't ever dry on it or fall off and makes polishing easier as the paint is clean from base to clear


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## bigbro (Jul 27, 2009)

will these cleaners not strip the wax protection?


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## tfonseca (Jul 31, 2008)

bigbro said:


> will these cleaners not strip the wax protection?


A paint cleanser will always remove all the waxes and sealants.


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## Bigpikle (May 21, 2007)

StooR26 said:


> Sorry to jump on the thread here guys, bit of a noob, so bear with me
> 
> I understand the methods/principles behind the prewash/wash/dry/clay etc
> 
> ...


no problem...

most people dont use a paint cleaner before polishing, working on the principle that the abrasive polish will remove all the dirt. This _may_ be right or it _may_ be that:

1. removing more before polishing will improve the polishing process?

and/or

2. paint cleaners will remove more after the polishing process and do a better job of cleaning?

Either way, some paint cleaners also glaze the surface, so can add a little something after polishing. They also remove oils left by polishing and so aid the wax bonding. Trouble is there isnt any hard evidence (that I've seen) to answer these questions and just anecdotal stories...



bigbro said:


> will these cleaners not strip the wax protection?


thats the point exactly - strip back the decayed layers of wax/sealant, that may very well have dirt and muck embedded in them, and create the cleanest possible glossiest finish before waxing/sealing again.


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## bertiewhang (Jun 19, 2009)

Will a cleanser be a lot of work by hand, how long do you have to work it and what kind of applicator would you use?

Thanks


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## Bigpikle (May 21, 2007)

bertiewhang said:


> Will a cleanser be a lot of work by hand, how long do you have to work it and what kind of applicator would you use?
> 
> Thanks


it depends...

2 types of cleaners:

1. chemical
2. chemical with light abrasives

The chemical ones are usually very easy, as you just wipe on, leave for a short time and wipe off. Most are easy by hand and I just use the softer side of a 'german' sty;e foam applicator. Those with light abrasives just need to be worked a little bit to make sure they dont leave any marks on softer paints. Its just a case of medium pressure for a few passes back and forth in most cases. Not much work really and MUCH less than trying to hand polish. I tend to use the firmer foam side of a 'german' pad or a MF pad if I want a bit more bite and cleaning - depends on the state of the car TBH.

On a big 4x4 its going to take a while but on a smaller car it perhaps an hour or so, but time VERY well spent as it can really add a good amount to the finish. Spend 10x as much time in prep as in putting on a wax...at least


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## m0bov (May 2, 2007)

Anyone used Sonus Paint Cleaner by DA??


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## yetizone (Jun 25, 2008)

The Audi looks great with that finish BP. :buffer:

I agree about paint cleaners. I'm a huge fan of Zaino AIO and use it before every application of Z2 

Did you have problems with your Audi A3 DSG auto box? IIRC, I think you mentioned it in another thread. If so, what went wrong? Just curious, as I thought the VAG group DSG boxes were pretty bomb proof.


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## waterbutler (Apr 10, 2009)

scooby73 said:


> Used Meguiar's step one paint cleaner (by hand) on my brother's white Y plate Escort van last year. The van had not been washed for at least twelve months, and had never been polished/waxed the five years he'd owned it.
> 
> The difference it made even though i'd clayed it before hand was stunning! Out of the whole detailing process, it was the step that made in the biggest difference.


This is the absolute truth.....I have also used Meg's 1 step on my white VW pickup and the difference in shine and smoothness of the paint was well worth the time spent doing it by hand...this product does not like mechanical application.


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## Bigpikle (May 21, 2007)

m0bov said:


> Anyone used Sonus Paint Cleaner by DA??


yep - works fine but no abrasives so no big advantage...



yetizone said:


> The Audi looks great with that finish BP. :buffer:
> 
> I agree about paint cleaners. I'm a huge fan of Zaino AIO and use it before every application of Z2
> 
> Did you have problems with your Audi A3 DSG auto box? IIRC, I think you mentioned it in another thread. If so, what went wrong? Just curious, as I thought the VAG group DSG boxes were pretty bomb proof.


yep - minor glitch but took 7 weeks for a gearbox ECU unit from Germany


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## 1999grad (Oct 10, 2008)

Would AG Super Resin Polish fit as a paint cleaner? Or is it a polish, a sythetic wax?


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## Bigpikle (May 21, 2007)

1999grad said:


> Would AG Super Resin Polish fit as a paint cleaner? Or is it a polish, a sythetic wax?


its a true AIO (all-in-one) as it cleans, polishes and protects. Fits the bill although I think there are better pure cleaners. Great product for using by hand though


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## mel1989 (Mar 23, 2008)

Hijacking the thread slightly but which order provides best results with the products I have. Megs step 1 paint cleaner, and Sonus ultra fine clay.

Should I clay before or after the paint is cleaned? 

TIA


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## PJS (Aug 18, 2007)

Yep, claying is always straight after washing - nowhere else.
Paint cleansing after polishing to remove debris and oils.


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## swiftshine (Apr 17, 2008)

So what is the best 'pure' paint cleanser then? :thumb:


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## Bigpikle (May 21, 2007)

swiftshine said:


> So what is the best 'pure' paint cleanser then? :thumb:


great question....hard to answer?

'best' probably depends. I like ease of use, good cleaning and a cracking feeling finish, so these things have a big impact on 'best' for me. It also depends on whether its machine application or hand, and whether I want any light correction or not?

A few of 'my' favourites, in no particular order:

1. Lime Prime - esp by machine
2. Lusso paint rejuvinator - for the extra % it gives any finish 
3. P21S/R222 - for sheer speed and ease of use & finish it gives
4. Serious Perf Cleaner - VERY cheap and easy. Great finish for sealants to go over.

I also have a big collection of AIO's I really like to use as well


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## sambotc (Mar 8, 2007)

Is this what you get in the meguires smooth finish clay kit? Got a little bottle of 'cleaner wax' ?

Sam


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## mel1989 (Mar 23, 2008)

My polish is AG SRP so wont cleaning the paint after polishing remove the fillers?


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## mellowfellow (Jul 11, 2009)

yes it will for sure , so clean paint first then use SRP or change to an alternative AIO polish or A Final finishing with Machine eg Macallister ROS from B&Q for £20.


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## swiftshine (Apr 17, 2008)

Bigpikle said:


> great question....hard to answer?
> 
> 'best' probably depends. I like ease of use, good cleaning and a cracking feeling finish, so these things have a big impact on 'best' for me. It also depends on whether its machine application or hand, and whether I want any light correction or not?
> 
> ...


Sounds like a pretty good description of 'best' to me
Which of those are 'pure' i.e no abrasives? I know LP has abrasives, but not sure about the others. I already have LP but looking for something that just cleans. Wipe on, leave, wipe off sounds pretty good:thumb:


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## Bigpikle (May 21, 2007)

I think the LP is the only one with any kind of abrasives in from my list - I have never seen any correction effect from the others. I guess 'abrasive' might be relative though as I wouldnt be surprised if some/many cleaners have some form of abrasive that aids cleaning power but would not be anything like tough enough to correct even soft paints - just a guess though


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## waxy (Feb 27, 2006)

Yes, i agree.There are plenty of pre wax cleaners out there that do contain some form of abrasive,Almond meal,Kapolite,Diatomaceous earth,but in their performance, they are functionaly non abrasive,the abrasive element would only be effective at improving gloss,and removing anything under itself,to ensure proper bonding of wax.


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