# polishing fall back



## dooka (Aug 1, 2006)

There is more and more of this cropping up all over the country. I think a few people have a look on here, and think, well that looks easy, tomorrow I will set up as a pro detailer..

What it does is make life difficult for the true decent detailers, like the ones on this detail..

http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=197391

The market will become flooded with so called detailers, but after a few years, the good ones will remain..

Happy Christmas all..


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## Deanoecosse (Mar 15, 2007)

Detailing World is part of this problem. Too many guys buy a rotary, read a machine polishing guide on here, maybe attend a detailing training class and a month later they are calling themselves a Professional". Maybe the recession is making it worse for the number of dodgy "detailers" springing up. They will fall away tho as word spreads of their substandard work.


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## Prism Detailing (Jun 8, 2006)

Good turnaround, and assuming posting it on here, they are a "pro" detailer (supporter) on here, not many from the east coast.......There has be a certain detailer in Scotland i have seen their work and was in shock. As said many times before, some people read a guide pick up a rotary and think they are a "pro detailer" Well at least this car didnt have any permanent defects and could be rectified.


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## Brazo (Oct 27, 2005)

Deanoecosse said:


> Detailing World is part of this problem. Too many guys buy a rotary, read a machine polishing guide on here, maybe attend a detailing training class and a month later they are calling themselves a Professional". Maybe the recession is making it worse for the number of dodgy "detailers" springing up. They will fall away tho as word spreads of their substandard work.


And if it wasn't detailing world it would be the next best forum, sadly there isn't another UK detailing forum that even gets 0.5% of our traffic. Blaming Dw is like blaming die hard the movie when an American student goes haywire with an uzi.


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## S-X-I (Sep 6, 2006)

I really don't get posts like this, the whole 'I know someone who is going a really bad job on other people's cars but I'm not going to say who it is'.

If your not going to name and shame then what is the point in even posting the above information. All it does is start a witch hunt with people trying to guess who it is and falsely accusing people.

Not very professional IMO!


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## Guest (Dec 27, 2010)

Brazo said:


> And if it wasn't detailing world it would be the next best forum, sadly there isn't another UK detailing forum that even gets 0.5% of our traffic. Blaming Dw is like blaming die hard the movie when an American student goes haywire with an uzi.


And yet Prism Detailing has just indicated they are most likely a supporter on here, and if this is the case, as per stickies plastered round here... I quote:

"we simply want to emphasise that a Supporter *will *have a proven track record of satisfied customers as well as the relevant insurances, and someone offering a lower quote might not. "
http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showpost.php?p=2271143

My bold.

Regarding the detailer in question all that will happen now is during meets and what not people will spread round who it is and everyone on "the scene" will know anyhow. That is what happens most of the time when stuff is kept off the forums.


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## mkv (Jun 12, 2008)

Brazo said:


> And if it wasn't detailing world it would be the next best forum, sadly there isn't another UK detailing forum that even gets 0.5% of our traffic. Blaming Dw is like blaming die hard the movie when an American student goes haywire with an uzi.


Your right, it would be the next forum along. All Deano is saying is that people buy a cheap fleabay rotary and think they are a "pro". Plus with advent of new products that can hide a muti-tude of sins its easy for some to see a quick buck. Its only in the cold light of day the true damage can be seen.

The comparison of Dw to Die Hard and the shooting of innocent people is really just a bit over the top. In the scheme of things there is no comparison.

Lets all just get a grip of reality here. In any indusrty you get the good, the bad and the indifferent.

Gordon, Dave, great job as ever. Its always a bit more difficult when your fixing others mistakes ( I did say this earlier, but post was deleted).

Steve


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## Dave KG (Feb 23, 2006)

This was one of the last details I was involved in, and when I first saw the car i was quite frankly apalled at the state in which it has been left. If this was a one off in the industry, of course one may just put this up to being a bad day at the office - we all have them after all. But this is seeming to be becoming an even more popular occurence, certainly with the cars we are seeing up here and it would seem up and down the country as well. A great shame, but it does seem to be the way the industry is going and it is only to the detriment of those who are doing a damn good job day in, day out as their reputations will be tarnished as the industry as a whole is tarnished.

The point of the post - well, for one, it is not to name and shame, as suggested above. This would certainly not be a professional thing to do. What is professional is to highlight what is beleived to be a growing problem, show the defects and try to show people the difference between a good job and what, quite frankly, is a shoddy one. Customers have the right to know. Customers should expect the best quality of finish, and holograms certainly do not qualify but as is demonstrated all too often (but perhaps not picked on nearly often enough!) it is very easy to take a picture of a shiny car with no direct sun for some afters shots and post in the Studio or wherever and get lots of ooohs and ahhs cause its a cool car... The quality of the work need not be there for this, but you can still drum up business from it!

An interesting point being made above about the involvement of DW... _If_ the original detailer was a supporter, then is it really DW's fault? Well, the quote above is on a shaky nail with what it says implicitly, but explicity can the forum really be held responsible... Of course not. It is just a forum, not a regulating body of professionals.

I hope that the many excellent detailers across the country can "stop the rot" of the industry (before the industry has really got off the ground), as speaking to many outside the forum circles, detailing has quite a bad name and work such as that carried out on this car previous to our detail is a good example of why... Perhaps it is a case of needing to really show people, somehow, what paint correction (I'm taking just this _one_ aspect of detailing, there are many others) should be, and what to look out for in terms of poor quality workmanship as in many cases, a car can look shiny but still be a poor finish.


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## Prism Detailing (Jun 8, 2006)

G220 said:


> And yet Prism Detailing has just indicated they are most likely a supporter on here


I was only applying logic to a theory, they certainly might not be a supporter but still might be a pro who uses the forum  Im only making assumptions, not stating facts :thumb:


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## Mirror Finish Details (Aug 21, 2008)

As ever Gordon nice work.

My points (and has nothing to do with this thread either)

Detailing as a phrase is becomming totally over used. It is a term from the US; as Valeting is parking peoples cars. Detailing is cleaning cars.

I say over used as a lot of valeters on here who I know never quote them selves as detailers, they are just car valeters. And do a good job for what they want to do, valeting. No paint correction either.

The difference seems to be when paint correction comes into it, some are good, some are horrific as I have seen. Perhaps we need to differentiate detailing from paint correction, as paint correction is a totally different skill set.

The BIG problem is the weekend warrior, they will machine a car for £100, then use big filler products and the customer thinks great. Till a few washes later then it looks the same as before the detail. Price is slowly creeping into our industry and even though I think £xxx amount a day is good for my business other may scoff at those prices. I do not compete on price, it is my business, my price and if you don't want to pay, go elsewhere.

I personally do not do sports cars( Ferrari, lambos etc) and pass the work to others on here, I have no interest in them and I do not even like them so would not work on them. I do enjoy doing Range Rovers and other big SUV's, Jags etc. I do enjoy Nissan GT-R' though as they need special care.

I have found my niche and concentrate on that market.

I thought the post was good reading and as Gordon has not said who the other detailer is shows what a pro he is.


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## VIPER (May 30, 2007)

I can see why some people might think DW is responsible for too many people now operating under the guise of being a 'professional' and then churning out substandard work - in a way that is fair comment as this site has massively boosted detailing in the UK on every level; pros, traders, manufacturers. There's nobody could refute the impact we've had, and continue to have, on the industry.

However, at the moment it is an impossibility for us to control who chooses to sign up to the supporters program, so inevitably there will be people who do so who then go on to produce poor work.

We can't, and won't apologise for the success of DW and the knock on effect of that success in that people choose to take up detailing as a profession, even if they perhaps don't have the skillset, business acumen or ethics that the industry deserves.

It is an issue, and clearly one that's not going to go away anytime soon as DW continues to grow, so in 2011 we might need to at least have a look at the joining process for new supporters. Anyone operating as a professional outsite the 'walls' of DW is beyond the scope of anything we can do obviously, so the problem itself is always going to be there unfortunately.


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## m33porsche (Jun 10, 2007)

Viper said:


> I can see why some people might think DW is responsible for too many people now operating under the guise of being a 'professional' and then churning out substandard work - in a way that is fair comment as this site has massively boosted detailing in the UK on every level; pros, traders, manufacturers. There's nobody could refute the impact we've had, and continue to have, on the industry.
> 
> However, at the moment it is an impossibility for us to control who chooses to sign up to the supporters program, so inevitably there will be people who do so who then go on to produce poor work.
> 
> ...


Firstly a major +1 for no DW apologies. What it has done is raise the bar and open the eyes of many to what is possible. We live in a democracy and thank god for that. It showed me the detailing night and day, the 50:50 shot. In that one picture I was hooked, some say addicted to detailing and DW.

Onto the above post I think that reviewing the sign-up process is an excellent thought. I was thinking that a recommendation process such as used for Check-a-Trade might be the way to go. Something along the lines of customer testimonials and in-process 50:50 shots? Might be heavier on the admin but would be quite re-assuring..


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## Dave KG (Feb 23, 2006)

m33porsche said:


> Firstly a major +1 for no DW apologies. What it has done is raise the bar and open the eyes of many to what is possible. We live in a democracy and thank god for that. It showed me the detailing night and day, the 50:50 shot. In that one picture I was hooked, some say addicted to detailing and DW.
> 
> Onto the above post I think that reviewing the sign-up process is an excellent thought. I was thinking that a recommendation process such as used for Check-a-Trade might be the way to go. Something along the lines of customer testimonials and in-process 50:50 shots? Might be heavier on the admin but would be quite re-assuring..


In theory, some form of checking process would be very good - in practice, it would be interesting to see how it would be implemented, and who would be the judge, jury and executioners so to speak... Let us remember, detailing is not in itself a professionally regulated industry and there is not real definition of what a detailed car is and what it is not. There are not formal qualification one needs to begin detailing. So firstly, to implement a scheme like this _properly_ rather than a hand-waving approach (which is vulnerable to ever-present politics, only a fool would deny) would require a set of standards to be conceived. We all have ideas about what these should be in out heads, but there needs to be a laid down set of standards which someone must meet. Creating these is non-trivial, not least because it requires people to create them and who in themselves is going to do this? And then how does one ensure they are fair, yet also challenging enough? People doing this would need to be _industry experts_, and also those who do actually detail cars to a high standard regularly - and of course, it would need to be _people_, not person.

Running in parallel with any set of standards, there needs to be some form of education - _to all detailers_. And education of customers as to what constitutes meeting the standards... this is going to be very difficult, currently we have an industry in its absolute infancy, and as with many things at this stage there are a lot of opinions, but not always supported by hard facts behind them as to correct proecdures. A marketing man's dream for sure, but not what one may say as helpful for generating a set of standards and then educating those on how to meet these.

Believe me, I would love to see some form of regulation to stop instances like the above, or at least go some way to alleviating the problem. However, the current state of play as I see it is that if you can shout loud enough and market yourself well enough, you will receive praise regardless of the quality of work put out - it is all down to marketing yourself (and forum's are an excellent place for this in detailing) on a superficial level. While you are at it, make sure you slate the competition! (Perhaps a little flippant, but again, only a fool would deny this goes on!).

Of course, one may wonder what would be wrong with just a few 50/50 shots and a quick check to see if they are insured etc, but at the end of the day, even this is a bit superficial on the one hand, but on the other hand, it is currently going on! The Studio - some detailers show 50/50 shots, correct lighting used to highlight their work, others just post a few pics of shiny afters. The trouble is, it seems that the type of car attracts more attention than the actual quality of the work which blurs completely the use of the Studio for assessing quality of workmanship for all but who knows what they are looking for! Some education as to what to do to assess work would go a long way, and in my opinion this is one of the first steps the forum should be making before it entertains the ideas of checking its supporters for perceived quality.


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## VIPER (May 30, 2007)

Just to clarify _we_ wouldn't be doing any quality control or sitting in judgement on any supporter's work as a forum. That could never work in practice and not even a notion that we'd entertain, not to mention we simply don't have the manpower to implement such a scheme. What I meant was we could look at working with a 3rd party industry governing body - should one ever be set up, and it has been looked into in the recent past - to try and establish some sort of benchmark or membership program. If that were ever established and as Dave says, be set up properly, then naturally we'd try and work with such an organisation with the goal being to set a standard of professional detailing.

As a forum DW could never be solely be that governing body.


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## Incredible Detail (Sep 26, 2007)

Just to clarify, I'm not on the East Coast :thumb:

Gordon, I think it would be much better if you wrote down what the problem with the car was instead of posting loads of pictures without any description.

Looking at the pictures I can clearly see what the problem is but if this post is to serve any purpose at all it really needs to explain this clearly to people that don't know what detailing is.

There was even a post from someone who has been on here years that couldn't see the problem with the car and thought it was just wash marring - but that seems to have dissapeared now...

This post makes interesting reading regarding drop back or fall back as referred to by Gordon in this thread.

http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=159169


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## Dave KG (Feb 23, 2006)

I would have thought the problems were obvious - look at the before shots, you will see classic buffer trails which represent poor machine finishing. I didn't think it would need to be made any more explicit through explanation, but hjopefully that clears things up for those who don't know what they are looking for from a machined finish...


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## Dave KG (Feb 23, 2006)

Regarding drop-back or fall-back, this is something that has long been known about and the different lubricants and carriers in polishes can cause the isse for products _not fully broken down_... for example, if you do not full work a polish and the abrasives themselves are leaving fine trails, then the oils have something to fill and they will fill it. If a polish is fully worked, then the oils hve nothing to fill so you do not get a filling effect. It is down to correct understanding and use of the products that you are using. Bodyshop panel wipe is the best for wipedowns in my experience.


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## VIPER (May 30, 2007)

Dave KG said:


> Regarding drop-back or fall-back, this is something that has long been known about and the different lubricants and carriers in polishes can cause the isse for products _not fully broken down_... for example, if you do not full work a polish and the abrasives themselves are leaving fine trails, then the oils have something to fill and they will fill it. *If a polish is fully worked, then the oils hve nothing to fill so you do not get a filling effect.* It is down to correct understanding and use of the products that you are using. Bodyshop panel wipe is the best for wipedowns in my experience.


Very good point and worth emphasising Dave as I'd wager, even though it now seems very obvious after you've said this, a lot of people on here (probably those new to detailing) haven't looked at this way before?


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## Incredible Detail (Sep 26, 2007)

Dave KG said:


> I would have thought the problems were obvious - look at the before shots, you will see classic buffer trails which represent poor machine finishing. I didn't think it would need to be made any more explicit through explanation, but hjopefully that clears things up for those who don't know what they are looking for from a machined finish...


Yes I agree that to you and I the problems are "obvious" but IMO not to everyone. Hence the posts in this thread stating that it just looks like wash marring...


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## m33porsche (Jun 10, 2007)

My thoughts on the matter of checking are keep it simple. Yes there are challenges but I don't think we need to implement a comprehensive set of standards to safeguard against the worst offenders. It will never be failsafe but would be better than nothing at all.

I don't know the details of how many professionals request DW membership but I'm imagining that it's not 100's a month? Split it regionally and even less. 

Why, for the UK at least, could we not put our collective brains together to compile a simple checklist/questionaire that would test the level of a prospective "pro's" knowledge and expertise. I'm not claiming to be an expert here but if someone I was going to pay £200 - £300 didn't know what 2BM was or couldn't describe how to use grades of polish/pads/speeds correctly I'd be keeping my money in my wallet.

I'm not suggesting that DW set itself up as an industry body but that a simple checking process IS an appropriate unlock into a world of addicts with cash to spend. You'd be paying a direct marketing agency bucketfuls to get that kind of access. 

If we kept it simple, applied our collective knowledge/experience, I'm sure we could show some leadership here that would provide members with a basic level of assurance that they weren't letting an inexperienced pro to-be loose on their pride and joy


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## Arfman (Sep 13, 2009)

Problem with those questions is that they are easily findable on the internet, even right here on DW.
When I started "detailing" my own car I knew all about 2BM, polishes, usage of the DA. I could easily have been a professional on paper, yet it took me 3 weekends to get a somewhat decent finish on my own car.

Point being: someone may look good on paper, but you can only judge skill and knowledge in real life.


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## mkv (Jun 12, 2008)

Getting back to the details itself. Fall back seems to be a particular issue with Audi/VW paint. Ive heard of it a few times and suffered from it myself once.

Steve


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## Clark @ PB (Mar 1, 2006)

mkv said:


> Getting back to the details itself. Fall back seems to be a particular issue with Audi/VW paint. Ive heard of it a few times and suffered from it myself once.
> 
> Steve


I wouldn't say it's down to one paint type,you'll often get drop back if you don't fully work the abrasives or don't do an IPA/Panel wipe down after polishing.


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## dooka (Aug 1, 2006)

What does make a pro then..

So if someone has been machine polishing say for around 16 years, Has qualifications in paint, body work/panel beating and mechanics. Have served time as both a Classical Panel Beater/Painter and Mechanic. Would that make someone a pro, or just experienced in what they do..

I don't think anyone on here is blaming DW, just saying that sites such as this do play a part, but blame doesn't fall with DW..

I would be lost without this place, and I'm sure a lot of the pros would be too. Don't think that just because they are a Pro, means they know everything, nobody knows everything..


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## mkv (Jun 12, 2008)

Clark @ PB said:


> I wouldn't say it's down to one paint type,you'll often get drop back if you don't fully work the abrasives or don't do an IPA/Panel wipe down after polishing.


Yes, ive just found it to be more prolific on VAG paint. As you say, thats why IPA wipe down is essentila everytime.


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## AlanQS (May 6, 2009)

Gentlemen; might it be possible for one of your experienced hands to draw up a list of what a customer could expect from a good detailer - dependent upon the level of service been given, that you could leave as a sticky for customers to read on this web-site. This list could be circulated to the rest of the top detailers on this forum - and I mean the most prominent ones within that list, for agreement to - if you like - clauses, and the ones that receive the most backing are included in the sticky.
If this is then accepted, then although of no contractual or legal value, all professional detailers who post on this forum may find themselves ethically obliged to stick by those guidelines.

And I don't mean something that has lots of fine print - that will never work, but perhaps a definition of what you could expect from, say machine correction and the like.

I am sufficiently inexperienced to think of any good examples but I recall a friends's 997 getting detailed and in the bright sunlight there were a lot of "ghosting" marks - a bit like the marks left on a cold window from warm breath. I pointed them out and she said the detailer said they would go away in the sun. I am reasonably sure from what I've picked up on here that the final IPA wipe-down between the final polish and the application of the wax was less than 100%. That shouldn't happen, should it?


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## Dave KG (Feb 23, 2006)

Incredible Detail said:


> Yes I agree that to you and I the problems are "obvious" but IMO not to everyone. Hence the posts in this thread stating that it just looks like wash marring...


In which case, you have highlighted my point quite admirably - that it is not obvious what the problems are highlights that there are major issues with people actually understanding what a quality machine finish should look like and what should _not_ be present, and going beyond that, how to assess a finish to check it is free of marring and what to look for when checking (as some marring can be subtle under many lighting conditions). There needs to be some form of _education_, ideally coming from those who are in the industry, and pictures of shiny cars in the Studio certainly are not that. And I don't buy for one minute the whole no pros have any time argument, Polished Bliss have put together fantastically detailed guides and a very education website... perhaps some of the professional detailers could get together with DW, and sit down and think of a way to demonstrate to J.Public what they should expect from a detailed finish.


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## Dave KG (Feb 23, 2006)

Viper said:


> Very good point and worth emphasising Dave as I'd wager, even though it now seems very obvious after you've said this, a lot of people on here (probably those new to detailing) haven't looked at this way before?


It is how I have been thinking of it ever since the discussion about Ultrafina SE and whether or not it fills - with some saying it does, following an IPA wipedown, and some saying it does not following an IPA wipedown (or whatever panel wipe you choose). Look back through the archives, you'll find a post by me looking for clarification on whether not not Ultrafina SE contains fillers, or fills. No hard and fast answer - and the reason for that was simple, it was filling under certain conditions of use, which is why some saw it and some did not. Exactly the cause described - the oils can "fill" light marring to mask it if it exists, but if it does not exist, there is nothing to fill. Definitely something that should be highlighted as important, in my opinion.


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## Dave KG (Feb 23, 2006)

AlanQS said:


> Gentlemen; might it be possible for one of your experienced hands to draw up a list of what a customer could expect from a good detailer - dependent upon the level of service been given, that you could leave as a sticky for customers to read on this web-site. This list could be circulated to the rest of the top detailers on this forum - and I mean the most prominent ones within that list, for agreement to - if you like - clauses, and the ones that receive the most backing are included in the sticky.
> If this is then accepted, then although of no contractual or legal value, all professional detailers who post on this forum may find themselves ethically obliged to stick by those guidelines.
> 
> And I don't mean something that has lots of fine print - that will never work, but perhaps a definition of what you could expect from, say machine correction and the like.
> ...


Good luck getting agreement between the pros in the current climate, but a nice idea in theory. I mean, taking paint correction alone, the set of standard for correction level could not be drawn up at all - some paint will allow removal of marks, and some will not due to thickness arguments. However, what could certainly be in the list is the assessment of removal rates (that I very rarely see discussed in Studio posts), and honesty with the customer as to why some marks could not be removed. In terms of finish, then clearly, hologram or micromarring are not acceptable and should be remedied, and this brings us to the standard of paintwork assessing - to check for holograms requires specific lighting conditions: Sun Gun used in a reasonably dark unit, held far away from the paint (not close up as in some cases, as this masks marring). Definitely not a 500W Halogen or similar, they are fantastic at hiding marring as this post clearly demonstartes:

http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=108477

I see a lot of afters taken with light sources like, or similar to the above and it leaves me asking a lot of questions to myself about the true finish quality... I'm not saying that it is bad, but what I am saying is that certain light sources that are rater sadly too often used give no evidence that the finish is _not bad._ Still, some lighting pictures are certainly better than none at all, and personally if I am looking at a Studio post, details where there has been machine polishing but no effort to show proper lighting shots just leaves me thinking that nothing has been demonstated at all, other than some nice photography of a clean car.

In short, it would be great to get something like this agreed, but until there are agreed methods of assessment, it will be very difficult indeed.


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## Dave KG (Feb 23, 2006)

m33porsche said:


> My thoughts on the matter of checking are keep it simple. Yes there are challenges but I don't think we need to implement a comprehensive set of standards to safeguard against the worst offenders. It will never be failsafe but would be better than nothing at all.
> 
> I don't know the details of how many professionals request DW membership but I'm imagining that it's not 100's a month? Split it regionally and even less.
> 
> ...


I like the idea, really I do, of a sort of check, it is just making sure it is _effective._ Questions wouldn't be, in my opinion, as you can easily find the answers though I see where you are coming form. I would be sweer to use experience to do it, as you can get some very talented individuals who have not yet detailed many cars...

To provide a basic level of assurance - perhaps all supporters should be insured and be able to prove it (just an example, will not gaurantee quality but gives comeback to a customer in the case of disaster), in the case of paint correction, be able to demonstrate the ability to remove defects from a collection of paints on scrap panels (hard, medium, soft, and on flats and awkward contours to demonstrate adequate machine control) and finish down hologram free and be able to assess for themselves the finish, and also be tested on safety of correction to ensure that defects are removed _safely_ and only defects that can be safely removed are fully removed - that is, the technique of Fast Cut regardless and sort it out with a finishing polish _should not be accepted as safe paint correction!_


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## m33porsche (Jun 10, 2007)

I for one would happily volunteer my services to help set-up/oversee any kind of "screening" process.

I can see that the questionaire approach may not be the only aspect and that we'd need to incorporate an element of experience.

Just a thought but we've got national coverage any retailer would be proud off. How hard would it be for a prospective supporter to visit their local "registered" DW supporter. You guys uphold the standard and could surely sniff out an inexperienced pro?


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## Dave KG (Feb 23, 2006)

m33porsche said:


> I for one would happily volunteer my services to help set-up/oversee any kind of "screening" process.
> 
> I can see that the questionaire approach may not be the only aspect and that we'd need to incorporate an element of experience.
> 
> Just a thought but we've got national coverage any retailer would be proud off. How hard would it be for a prospective supporter to visit their local "registered" DW supporter. You guys uphold the standard and could surely sniff out an inexperienced pro?


But how would you know that the local DW supporters are singing off the same hymn sheet, and who writes this hymn sheet in the first place? And what would be the requirements of the registered supporter? I know what you are meaning, but for me the trouble is that it remains a bit "hand-wavy" and at "personal discretion" which in practice will never uphold any standard. The trouble being is that there is no standard in the first place.


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## Dave KG (Feb 23, 2006)

Perhaps what I am trying to say here is that for once, some very valid and very important points are being raised regarding the quality of detailing and how to assess it, and hopefully this may push forward to the benefits of all - the forum, those who detail professionally (to improve the image of the industry) and those who's cars are being detailed (for getting the best results for their pride and joys)... Nothing so far seems to be having much of an effect, perhaps this discussion will generate what has long been needed, I'd hate to see it "nipped in the bud" before then, achieving nothing.


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## Brazo (Oct 27, 2005)

Problem is Dave you can take one of the most 'regulated' tradesman industries in the Uk the gas industry and I can tell you for sure its heaving with cowboys, people working well past their competency levels and simple downright corruption and fraud that detailing in comparison is a shining beacon of light.

Ultimatly you get this stuff with any tradesperson, only the other day I was on a double glazing forum and...


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## Dave KG (Feb 23, 2006)

Mark, at no point are we denying trades have their good, bad and ugly... However, to continue being the "beacon of light", surely a lot of the pertinent points being raised here with regard to how to assess the quality of a machined finish are very important, would you not agree? This is my point, they are important and discussing them and bringing them to the table is essential to give people a much clearer idea of what to look for in a paint finish that has been machine polished. It only serves to benefit the supporters here, many of whom put out fantastic work but have their idustry tarnished through lack of education - here is an opportunity, on this forum, for people to take the lead...


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## Brazo (Oct 27, 2005)

I agree with you dave, only its been done to death many times before, perhaps Detailing chat is the best outlet for that and we can keep this thread to showcase your and Gordons excellent work


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## m33porsche (Jun 10, 2007)

Brazo said:


> Problem is Dave you can take one of the most 'regulated' tradesman industries in the Uk the gas industry and I can tell you for sure its heaving with cowboys, people working well past their competency levels and simple downright corruption and fraud that detailing in comparison is a shining beacon of light.
> 
> Ultimatly you get this stuff with any tradesperson, only the other day I was on a double glazing forum and...


That's a real shame.

Lets put this thread where we can continue the debate. Yes the gas safe certification scheme has it's issues but it's way better than being unregulated. What we have here is an opportunity to really make a difference.

m33


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## Beau Technique (Jun 21, 2010)

Some very valid points made and ones that have been brought up many a time both here and many other forums. Trouble is, if such a body was invented to govern detailing, how would this body be invented and to what right will they have of how to dictate to many what the system is and how it should be? There is no qualification and the only real true way would be to make detailing, more so paint correction a scheme which is placed at dedicated colleges. It still begs the question, whom would teach this? Plenty have experience, none are qualified and in this day and age, bits of paper mean everything ( apparently )


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## HeavenlyDetail (Sep 22, 2006)

Will just go round and round in circles , if your works shoddy people wont eventually use you , if its good you,ll always be busy. End of story.


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## m33porsche (Jun 10, 2007)

Heavenly said:


> Will just go round and round in circles , if your works shoddy people wont eventually use you , if its good you,ll always be busy. End of story.


If your work is shoddy there's a good chance folks won't use the detailing industry at all. There is a wealth of experience here, all we're asking is that its condensed into a set of guidelines that can be used by the uninitiated to differentiate between the hopefuls and pros without having to write-off a considerable sum in the process.


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## extreme-detail (Nov 7, 2005)

well it wasn`t me as i stay up in the highlands

all i see is that this post is tarring the east coast detailers in scotland, in the last year i have had to fix a few jobs that were done by so called detailers that had a day course.


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## bidderman1969 (Oct 20, 2006)

*disillusioned*

after having a thorough read through this thread http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=197391 i find myself questioning everything i have ever done to date, wondering if i ever did a good job now, wether i missed defects as the machine polish i was using was filling rather than correcting, now questioning the light sources i was using, techniques, etc etc etc.....

just when i thought i was mastering the whole art, i now find myself wondering was i doing it right from the beginning, will i ever get it right, etc etc etc ........... 

so i find myself disillusioned to point of thinking am i wasting my time and money?

anyone else thinking this too???????


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## R0B (Aug 27, 2010)

Yes i agree,ignoring my join date i have been ,whats described as a weekend warrior for a long time.
The majority of my work is a thorough valet with single stage polish and occasionaly correction.i am now of the same mind as you....is all my work rubbish,do i even know what im doing...i mean my customers pay and seem happy but are they really or dont they even know what they should expect,it shines so there happy and the main thing is ,am i one of the weekend warriors that ruining the name of detailing,i dont think so ,but how do i know for sure im on the right track regarding correction.im not concerned about my valeting skills as they are good but am now filled with doubt regarding my ability to remove defects.... i hate detailing damn it:lol:


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## Dave KG (Feb 23, 2006)

Mark M said:


> High quality work guys, and some very worthwhile points.
> 
> As some have said, every trade has shoddy workmanship, it's just that people don't have forums to air it on. At least nobody could die from a few swirl marks...
> 
> ...


It is not one person though, Mark, and that is the point I beleive is being made here... As you know, detailing is dim and distant for me now, I am pursuing a new career but one of the things that disappointed me the most towards the end was not just individual instances like this, but the fact they were becoming common place. Not, as some suggest, a result wholy of people attending a day "class", though perhaps peoples' feelings on this are bred out of misunderstanding (or perhaps simply the desire to make sly little comments in the time-honoured forum fashion  ). You only have to ask people their opinion of the detailing industry to know it is already very poor, and above is part of the reason why - an alarmingly high instance of substandard work, that is not just one off (which can easily be put down to a bad day, and if recitified professionally is not a concern) but rather more prolific.


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## m33porsche (Jun 10, 2007)

Agree it was an interesting thread, partricularly the posts on drop back, new to me, the use of different light sources to highlight (or disguise) different kinds of marring and the filling action of a polish varying on different types of paint surface.

I guess that's what is so great about detailing. we spend a lot of time talking about wonder products so the addition of information about technique AND assessment opens up a whole new dimension (for me and many I suspect) that allows us to develop and refine our expertise to another level.

Its like anything in life, you never stop learning, but this doessn't mean that the experience gained to date to worthless or that the quality of work is sub-standard. On the contrary, if you feel like that you're clearly committed and driven by quality rather than cost and/or time...:thumb:


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## Deano (Jul 7, 2006)

fellas i'm just moving the more valid points from that thread into here so you can continue the discussion without clogging the studio thread, apologies if it seems a little disjointed.


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## PETER @ ECLIPSE (Apr 19, 2006)

a regulatery set up will be hard to police , this has been spoken about for the last few years , but really all is needed is for said detailer who wants to become a supporter, to be insured and have been working in the job for 3 years or more and can prove it .
not as said done a course , got a website and no idea just blag his way through the first year undercutting to get jobs whilst trying to learn .
also , and i think this is where people get confused there is a skill here and at the end of the day some people have it and some dont .


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## wookey (Jul 13, 2007)

Just because someone is a professional doesn't mean that they are automatically good at there job.

You'd never ever be able to regulate this industry, much like any trade you get good and bad professionals. Just look at the motor trade when it comes to mechanics and basic car servicing or body shops and repairs!

Unfortunately the onus does fall on the person paying for the service. They need to do a bit of homework first on what service they want and what price they are going to pay and what they get for their money.


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## Auto Finesse (Jan 10, 2007)

This type of thing has been covered many times before, its not some new thing to just come to light, technique, paint knowledge and experience is what will help you over come this issue, pad, and product choice as well as adapting your polishing technique to the job in hand is important, but so is knowing how to check your work rather than wait n see, using IPA is helpful, but IPA can take 2-3-4 + hits to remove some oils and carriers, panel wipe is far more effective. you dont need to do the hole car with it, just check areas here and there to make sure your correction is true and complete and you will be fine. 


And those calling for a name and shame, what good dose that really do anyone? other than feed those with nothing better to do than have a forum witch hunt ?


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## dwmc (Jun 6, 2010)

seems to me someone is lacking a passion for perfection . theres always gunna be so called cowboys out there as there is in every occupation , all that can be done is do your homework before spending your money . every pro detailer i`ve spoke to has at least once had a car in for a lets say RE-correction which proves theres quite a few bad ones out there but this will be a good thing for those who do a proper job as it just shows how good of a job they do :thumb:


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## dooka (Aug 1, 2006)

Don't forget, body shops are ment to be professional and competent, but look at the state they leave a lot of cars in..


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## RedUntilDead (Feb 10, 2009)

And those calling for a name and shame, what good dose that really do anyone? other than feed those with nothing better to do than have a forum witch hunt ?[/QUOTE]

Tend to agree.
I am a mechanical engineer with 20+ years experience. I started out as an apprentice, very keen but little knowledge. During this time I fooked many things up, mistakes I learnt from and never repeated. Today I pride myself at being very good at my job.


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## daves2rs (May 7, 2007)

Dave KG said:


> In theory, some form of checking process would be very good - in practice, it would be interesting to see how it would be implemented, and who would be the judge, jury and executioners so to speak... Let us remember, detailing is not in itself a professionally regulated industry and there is not real definition of what a detailed car is and what it is not. There are not formal qualification one needs to begin detailing. So firstly, to implement a scheme like this _properly_ rather than a hand-waving approach (which is vulnerable to ever-present politics, only a fool would deny) would require a set of standards to be conceived. We all have ideas about what these should be in out heads, but there needs to be a laid down set of standards which someone must meet. Creating these is non-trivial, not least because it requires people to create them and who in themselves is going to do this? And then how does one ensure they are fair, yet also challenging enough? People doing this would need to be _industry experts_, and also those who do actually detail cars to a high standard regularly - and of course, it would need to be _people_, not person.
> 
> Running in parallel with any set of standards, there needs to be some form of education - _to all detailers_. And education of customers as to what constitutes meeting the standards... this is going to be very difficult, currently we have an industry in its absolute infancy, and as with many things at this stage there are a lot of opinions, but not always supported by hard facts behind them as to correct proecdures. A marketing man's dream for sure, but not what one may say as helpful for generating a set of standards and then educating those on how to meet these.
> 
> ...


No need to re-invent the wheel. If you want your business\company to demonstrate competency and commitment then get ISO 9001 Quality accreditation. A worldwide recognised industry standard.

Your scope of accreditation will be determined by "what is relevant to YOUR buisness". e.g. "Washing,cleaning,wetsanding and paintwork correction for all types of automotive vehicles".

This is the key point, there cannot be one "detailing specific" set of guidelines\process\procedures\documents for detaling as there are so many possible ways to get there. It is up to the company\business to ensure that they implement there "own" process\objectives\works instructions and ensure there staff are trained to a suitable level of competency.

Anyone with knowledge on this subject will understand, ISO 9001 can be implemented and maintained by a one man band or a company of 100 employees. It is a Quality Management System that implemented correctly will give your clients extra confidence that your working to a recognised industry standard.

If I owned a detaling business then ISO 9001 Quality would be my option. Surely there is a detailing business out there with ISO9001 accrediation?


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## jonjo36 (Dec 28, 2010)

Forgive me for the none introduction and it been my first post but I have never signed up to the forum until this post came alight!!! 

I have been in the car valeting business for years and I am mainly self taught. I have done a number of courses over the years to improve myself wherever I can. The problem I see with all of this is the amount of car valeters that have jumped onto the band wagon with the detailing side of things! Now for me yes a car valeter can be taught to detail but for me I always thought that real car valeting was about the American phrase of "Detailing"? As someone said in an earlier post it is the amount that can not use a rotary polisher and by watching a few you tube vids think they have mastered it !! I taught myself to rotary polish and like most things in life you still learn something new everyday. My biggest gripe in all of this is not the valeters doing detailing its the valeters who can not use the products they buy, having no public liability or even the correct liability, riding round with no C.O.S.H details and charging silly amounts for valeting a car IMO the valeting game has been over took by flash dash guys who have not got a clue!!! For me it should be the suppliers who should be helping out with this and they should not be supplying products to so called valeters without some sort of real training. As for blaming DW that is a load of crap DW has given me some great info. As for not joining my main reason is cos some of the people on here post some ridiculous questions that really get my back up so I am best left to keep it zipped rather than spoil DW.


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## m33porsche (Jun 10, 2007)

welcome jonjo - unusual intro but hey!.....:thumb:

One thing we're all agreed on is that there is an element of the industry that is not providing value for money for customers paying above and beyond the normal valet price.

What we can't agree on is whether or not we can/should try to do anything about it. It's ranged from the it's impossible to regulate/all trades are the same to full ISO accreditation!

What we all have in common is a passion for detailing and a desire to see that it's/our reputations are upheld.

It's what makes this place a colourful, sometimes volatile but always informative forum...:thumb:


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## Harwoodandy (Feb 27, 2010)

Again, forgive me also for the lack of intro, but i cannot resist posting on this thread and have been sitting on my hands for ages!
I've been an avid DW fan for 2 years or so now and have seen quite a lot of changes.

I'm not a detailer/valeter but a punter, having had my cars detailed 3 times this year. More on this shortly!

Firstly, my understanding was the studio was a place for the Pro's to showcase their work, and how they achieve the end results, this started from the OP as anything but, why start an inflamatory post in a studio section?
Surely a true Pro would have simply eluded to it having previously being worked on - no need for all the cloak and dagger symantics....
Unless of course the aforementioned Pro wanted a lot of exposure and to generate some noise?

A lot of the Pro's have simply stopped posting what were informative and fascinating write ups on DW, i can only summise it is due to the detailing taliban crawling all over their posts with inane dribblings "how can anybody let their car get into that state", "some people don't deserve to own a nice car" etc. etc.
Only last week Finerdetails posted a good write up, only to suffer an example of the above read by his client - not very nice for detailer or client eh?

Secondly, the industry needs to police itself, don't rely on anybody else to validate your work, if you work to a high standard every time you can sleep at night knowing that you have done your utmost, job satisfaction i suppose.

The 3 details i experienced?

1st detail was swissvax approved - acceptable finish but expensive

2nd detail was unapproved by anybody - talked a good job, was cheap(er) posted on here but fell way short of the mark, lets just say when he pitches up with his 12 yr old cousin who proceeds to wash your £60k prideand joy you tend to have doubts!

3rd detail another swissvax detailer - couldn't be more impressed, took the time to walk around the car, trying different products talking all the time about what was and wasn't achievable and honest about how much was needed to be spent to achieve what was my acceptable correction level.

I suppose what i am saying is that anybody who has taken the time, trouble and financial commitment to affiliate to a known quality brand are unlikely to shoot themselves in the foot. Perhaps also a fixed studio is an indication of commitment, however all 3 detailers above have studios....

Everybody has to start somewhere, and as in all aspects of life you do tend to get what you pay for, my advice to anybody looking for a detailer would be do your homework, trawl the net, shortlist to 3, talk to each, vist 1 and talk to him, and only then part with your money and hopefully 
And remember, the subject is very subjective, one person in ten will never be happy!

Cheers for reading!

Andy


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## daves2rs (May 7, 2007)

m33porsche said:


> welcome jonjo - unusual intro but hey!.....:thumb:
> 
> One thing we're all agreed on is that there is an element of the industry that is not providing value for money for customers paying above and beyond the normal valet price.
> 
> What we can't agree on is whether or not we can/should try to do anything about it. It's ranged from the it's impossible to regulate/all trades are the same to full ISO accreditation!


Firstly, "were all agreed on". Who are you referring too? People who have posted in this thread or all of DW?

Please provide substanial evidence that "there is an element of the industry that is not providing value for money for customers paying above and beyond the normal valet price."

I cringe when I read these sweeping statements. 



Harwoodandy said:


> no need for all the cloak and dagger symantics....
> 
> 2nd detail was unapproved by anybody - talked a good job, was cheap(er) posted on here but fell way short of the mark, lets just say when he pitches up with his 12 yr old cousin who proceeds to wash your £60k prideand joy you tend to have doubts!
> 
> Andy


Welcome Andy, I find a little contradiction going on in your post.

To dissect a little further why didnt you question the detailer if you found the 12 year old to be a concern?

Back on topic, the detailer who highlighted the issues caused by a competitor (which was quite specific in location) is completely "out of order".

I quote "I will not be drawn into naming this person. But I do hope he sees that his present work, ethics and quality of his work is are totally unacceptable and turns things around. Peoples cars are they pride and joy and as a detailer you are entrusted to carry out all contacted work to the highest of standards and not simply cover things over to a later day for the sake of financial benefits."

This is a crock of sh$t :lol:

"Totally unacceptable" 

Why do people think they have the right to publically execute a fellow competitor? Threads like this should be deleted by any "sensible" moderator.

It is of no suprise perhaps why some of the most talented detailers dont spend too much time on here.


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## Harwoodandy (Feb 27, 2010)

Thanks for the welcome Dave.

_Welcome Andy, I find a little contradiction going on in your post.

To dissect a little further why didnt you question the detailer if you found the 12 year old to be a concern?_

Cloak and dagger......?
Why elude to somebody by area/type of work but not name them or pinpoint them? All you are doing is casting all sorts of doubts on decent hard working conscientious grafters who take a great deal of pride in their work, i'm sure some guys will now have a question mark above their heads for no good reason other than the OP's desire for some "column space"
It's what Max Clifford does for a living...

What i am saying to the OP is grow some gonads and if you have something to say then say it to the offending party, don't pussy foot around like some overdramatic attention seeking fanny. If you feel strongly enough to criticise their work on a public forum then at least have the backbone to contact them directly and tell them what you think.

Detailer 2......
The detailer in question was indeed confronted and sadly "dismissed on the spot", when you buy into a product/brand you have certain expectations, if those expectations aren't met for whatever reason you have an obligation to challenge the vendor and give them an opportunity to redeem themselves.
If it's obvious you aren't going to get along then by far the best way is to terminate the agreement early on and walk away, irrespective of any commercial implications at that time.
Very frustrating and dissapointing when you have spent a great deal of time and effort in the selection process only to have to start all over again...

ISO 9001 is a sound way of demonstrating commitment to a quality standard. I've implemented it across my business (the proper one and not the "easy" one, and if you know about ISO you will know what i mean!)
It ensures training needs are identified and addressed and that a robust complaints procedure exists, BUT i would have to ask myself is a one man band who details 3-4 cars a week, and very well too, likely to subscribe to an acreditation that needs more admin time than he spends detailing or doing write ups on here?


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## paulmc08 (Feb 3, 2009)

Harwoodandy

Did you mention earlier that DD should man up and name the detailer who's work they had to correct,but yet you made this comment with no mention of a name?

"2nd detail was unapproved by anybody - talked a good job, was cheap(er) posted on here but fell way short of the mark, lets just say when he pitches up with his 12 yr old cousin who proceeds to wash your £60k prideand joy you tend to have doubts!"

It doesnt matter if it's a 60k car or a 6k car,all car's(if being properly detailed) should be giving the same care and attention

I do agree that some of the top pro's have stopped posting for what ever reason's,and one that stick's out in my mind is KDS,and who i would place at the top IMO,as the work he does it outstanding,plus the fact he does a wide range of work on site,from cam belt change's to engine rebuild's,wheel refurb panels or full car respray's and full body sanding/correction,but yet doesnt seem to get the recognition the work deserve's,sorry i went a wee bit off topic but probably one reason why the top pro's dont post too often.


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## m33porsche (Jun 10, 2007)

Agree with you on sweeping statements point

Just going by the amount of interest this thread has generated is a good indication. About half of the posts in this thread refer to issues with the industry and no one has stood up to say there is not an issue. There are also some very experienced members who have pointed to personal experience of this issue, not scientific I know, but very compelling given their knowledge of the industry

I'm not in the camp of this being a prolific issue, having used the services of several on here and been more than happy, but am of the view that increased popularity is bringing its issues.


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## Auto Finesse (Jan 10, 2007)

Harwoodandy said:


> BUT i would have to ask myself is a one man band who details 3-4 cars a week, and very well too, likely to subscribe to an acreditation that needs more admin time than he spends detailing or doing write ups on here?


This is part of the problem, these type of things will take up alot of time in paper work, and to be fair in my own business (2 detailers and a helping hand from my misses) we have enough of it already making me work till 10 at night some times, i could do with out more, as we dont earn money doing paper work.

Detailing is like an art, its not quick to do properly and you need pick someone who has a reputation you can trust, as well a proven track record for turning out the work you want, i find it a bit pretentious of you saying a detailer is likely to be better if they have paid to use a product manufactures name & branding for there own promotional purpose, this is simply not true, in my own business we pride our selfs in being independent, using the best product for each individual task regardless of the badge or brand, despite our friendship with a certain UK car wax company it dose not determine what we do, or don't use, if we where tied in with a manufacture it would cause far too much complication and likely restrict us from using some products (or at least mentioning the products) due to the cross over between brands and them being direct competitors.


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## The Cueball (Feb 8, 2007)

Well, I am one (probably not the only one) of a few people that Gordon spoke to about this, and his post.....I completely agreed with him that he should show what a state the car was in - left by a so called professional - but fall short of actually naming that person.

I'll be very blunt here (there's a shock ), there are far too many people buying a polishing machine, reading a few posts then starting up their own professional business..... I call this the "property developer" syndrome...

Everyone thought that after watching a few programs with Sarah Beaney buying a house for £3 and spending £100 - then selling it for a million that it looked easy and they would do that.... what happened to most of them was failure...

I have seen and heard lots people trying their luck at professional detailing.... most find it's harder than it looks...most producing average results as best....even I, a very average part time amateur detailer has been asked to correct a new "professional" detailer in my area.... The car was quite frankly pathetic, but thankfully I managed to salvage some of it...

We have people coming into work almost every day looking for business, even my staff will not use these people, yet others in the company will, pay lots of money and their cars look "meh" at best... I have ripped 2 "professional" cleaners to shreads for trying to charge over the odds for cleaning a car then trying to con females after they have done a half-ar$ed job....they probably don't think anyone knows any better to...and that is what they prey on...same as other cowboys.......

One even started shouting at a girl in my work saying that swirls were part of the paint, and my car (with none) was the damaged one... 

As it has already been mentioned, there will be cowboys in every type of business on the planet, and I don't think DW could ever be the judge and jury for what is good or bad, but there are many passionate people on here, who do not want to see what they love destroyed by idiots with a rotary and a heavy cut polish...so I would welcome a "show and crime" post every now and then showing what someone who knows what they are doing has to go through to fix a muppets hack job.....

Detailing seems to me to be all about word of mouth, and bad words move a h£ll of a lot quicker than good ones....

I would hate for terrible detailers to get all the bad vibes out to the unwashed masses before the good, quality detailers get to show there stuff off....

And finally, for those who are giving Gordon a hard time for putting this up...why don't you direct your energy at asking the person, the professional who done the pathetic attempt at detailing a car, to be a man and be a professional and come in here and explain himself?!?!?!

He charges somone to wreck their car, cons them and lies to their customer, then hides away in the shadows, not man enough to say sorry and explain his lack of professionalism.... that is the real issue here, and the real problem...not a true professional standing up for what he believes in...

:thumb:


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## westerman (Oct 12, 2008)

I think its a fair question.."what is a professional"? According to the Oxford Dictionary it's a person who "follows an occupation as a means of livelyhood or for gain". So it is obvious to me there are no "so called professionals" but there are plenty of "inferior professionals". This is common throughout life and it is why it's so important to check out the person you wish to use for anything.


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## daves2rs (May 7, 2007)

Harwoodandy said:


> ISO 9001 is a sound way of demonstrating commitment to a quality standard. I've implemented it across my business (the proper one and not the "easy" one, and if you know about ISO you will know what i mean!)
> It ensures training needs are identified and addressed and that a robust complaints procedure exists, BUT i would have to ask myself is a one man band who details 3-4 cars a week, and very well too, likely to subscribe to an acreditation that needs more admin time than he spends detailing or doing write ups on here?


I wont go into detail but the paperwork can be minimal once ISO 9001 is achieved (depends on scope of work). Is it worth it for a one man band? Depends on there goals or demonstrating to potential clients they have a recognised QMS in place.

Regarding this "north east detailer" was he contacted by the client to perhaps offer some sort of refund\rework if he felt the work was unsatisfactory?

Maybe the market does suggest there is an influx of new detailing company's however it's like anything we do in life we should do our homework prior to parting with our hard earned cash and this usually envolves selecting a company which will meet our requirements. If they dont then you would expect a refund or further work to be carried out.

I just dont find it very "professional" to conduct witch hunts on public forums when we dont have any conclusive evidence and potentially cause irreversiable damage to someone's livelihood.


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## Mirror Finish Details (Aug 21, 2008)

I still think the "Detailing" term is over used.

As I have said I know plenty of good valet guys who do not claim to be detailers or ever want to be detailers. I also know a good few guys who offer high end detailing but no machine polishing.

And this in my opinion is the difference.

Machine polishing is a skill, anyone can valet/detail a car. My 16 year old daughter does a mean valet job, she can make a car super shiney but she is not skilled.

Machine polishing as such is a skill, I have been at it over 5 years now and still learning new things. And yes I have made mistakes (dropped a polisher on a Merc bonnet, backed into a customers car) thankfully rectified and have a good customer base.

All in all, I was a Corgi plumber in my last life and the shambles that was with all the members, and college guys demanding £20k a year to work for me. I can't see how policing Detailing can be done as there are not that many of us in reality.


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## Dave KG (Feb 23, 2006)

The Cueball said:


> Well, I am one (probably not the only one) of a few people that Gordon spoke to about this, and his post.....I completely agreed with him that he should show what a state the car was in - left by a so called professional - but fall short of actually naming that person.
> 
> I'll be very blunt here (there's a shock ), there are far too many people buying a polishing machine, reading a few posts then starting up their own professional business..... I call this the "property developer" syndrome...
> 
> ...


Well said that man :thumb: Sums up perfectly my concerns for sure - as for the professional coming on to the forum and explaining themselves, that would indeed by nice, but highly unlikely I fear. The trouble is, as you allude to, one professional can tarnish the opinion of a new industry quite easily and it is all well and good concentrating on your own business which is what most detailers do, but if the industry itself is getting a bad name then that will stick to you as well, regardless of your reputation. In some ways, seeing the industry going this way with the larger and larger amounts of cowboys in it along with shifting attitudes makes me glad I am no longer a part of it.


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## ayrshireteggy (Dec 13, 2006)

Dave KG said:


> Well said that man :thumb: Sums up perfectly my concerns for sure - as for the professional coming on to the forum and explaining themselves, that would indeed by nice, but highly unlikely I fear. The trouble is, as you allude to, one professional can tarnish the opinion of a new industry quite easily and it is all well and good concentrating on your own business which is what most detailers do, but if the industry itself is getting a bad name then that will stick to you as well, regardless of your reputation. In some ways, seeing the industry going this way with the larger and larger amounts of cowboys in it along with shifting attitudes makes me glad I am no longer a part of it.


Where people believe there is money to be made, there will always be cowboys. That's life, I'm afraid. I agree that this may lead to people having a dim view of detailing in general. However, I don't believe that this will harm those with a good reputation. In fact, I think it will do the opposite. Those wanting a good job done will find plenty of recommendations for quality detailing companies.

People that slag off the whole detailing industry, will be people who can't be @rsed doing any research on the subject. Their opinions aren't worth worrying about. :thumb:


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## Beau Technique (Jun 21, 2010)

Dave KG said:


> Well said that man :thumb: Sums up perfectly my concerns for sure - as for the professional coming on to the forum and explaining themselves, that would indeed by nice, but highly unlikely I fear. The trouble is, as you allude to, one professional can tarnish the opinion of a new industry quite easily and it is all well and good concentrating on your own business which is what most detailers do, but if the industry itself is getting a bad name then that will stick to you as well, regardless of your reputation. In some ways, seeing the industry going this way with the larger and larger amounts of cowboys in it along with shifting attitudes makes me glad I am no longer a part of it.


Its a sad time when someone so dedicated has had enough, now thats summing something up for sure. Before forums, what did you all do? Seems imo, forums have a lot to be said for what they have created. In general, they are a great place to wax lyrical ( no pun intended ) advise or get advice but over such a short space of time ( past 4 years I would say ) the influx of new founded detailing companies and websites with folks doing trade 2 - 3 days a week is phenominal. Before the world wide web and these such forums, this didnt happen so frequently and it was seen as an actual trade rather than a hobby that average jo can do and make a quick buck from.


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## Gleammachine (Sep 8, 2007)

Something about this whole thread and original detail in the studio stinks of foul play to me & pretty good idea as to what it is, but nevertheless very unprofessional in my opinion.

Not sure if it is just Scotland, but there's been a few threads that have turned sour when it comes to detailers, area's and rivalry.

You say in the detail the owner of the car took to machine polishing well, is there a chance he may of inflicted the holograms himself prior to bringing the car to you? Had a few cars come to me where the owner had experimented himself.

It's very easy to tar another detailers work, I'm confident I could walk round any detailers work and find something that is not to my liking or taste, as could they mine, doesn't make the work poor though nor warrant a slandering thread.

Personally I like to think I get on with my local direct competition, matters like this are usually best dealt with on the phone, far more Professional.


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## Auto Finesse (Jan 10, 2007)

Gleammachine said:


> Personally I like to think I get on with my local direct competition, matters like this are usually best dealt with on the phone, far more Professional.


Duno who told you that  :lol:

I think me and you have worked on cars, before and after each other (6-12 months apart) in the past? or at least done cars for the same people/person, most after 6-12 months would have picked up the odd swirl or mark, you cant avoid that unfortunately, but that dont make it the fault of the detail who detailed it before.

I think what it comes down to is if your works of a decent standard, you wont/dont need to try and pick holes in others work to make your own look good


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## Gleammachine (Sep 8, 2007)

james b said:


> Duno who told you that  :lol:
> 
> I think me and you have worked on cars, before and after each other (6-12 months apart) in the past? or at least done cars for the same people/person, most after 6-12 months would have picked up the odd swirl or mark, you cant avoid that unfortunately, but that dont make it the fault of the detail who detailed it before.
> 
> I think what it comes down to is if your works of a decent standard, you wont/dont need to try and pick holes in others work to make your own look good


:lol: I only wrote it because I knew you was watching.:lol:


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## JJ_ (Oct 26, 2005)

Brazo said:


> Problem is Dave you can take one of the most 'regulated' tradesman industries in the Uk the gas industry and I can tell you for sure its heaving with cowboys, people working well past their competency levels and simple downright corruption and fraud that detailing in comparison is a shining beacon of light.
> 
> Ultimatly you get this stuff with any tradesperson, only the other day I was on a double glazing forum and...


Funnily enough we are in the DG business and all you are experiencing just now is what we did in the 90's. People starting up as detailers undercutting on price in order to get jobs and completing these jobs to a lower standard.

We are not the cheapest but we have which accreditation, llyods of london awards and a 98% customer satisfaction.

You just need to weather this storm and every down has an up, you get to follow up on the poor work.

When I first started detailing about 8/9 years ago pre detailing world, there wasn't much competition and you could charge what you want. I got offered to detail a car in Knighstbridge, London and my website was basic to say the least (p.s. just by the by, I don't detail any more) so it was easy.

Now with more people joining in you get a variation in standard - the long and short is. We were very spoilt for a long time and now the industry is going the way of others - variation in standard - word of mouth is probably going to be more important than ever.

It's just detailing catching up with the rest of the business world.

I wish you guys all the best, just keep your standards high and don't neg. on price with the quote takers. :car:

P.S. I don't know who else concurs here, but I feel DW like most forums suffer from over subscription and too many know it all's, too many opinions and ideas, which are just nonsense.


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## karl_liverpool (Sep 25, 2008)

a little trick i have found is after polishing i dont use ipa. i use my glass cleaner concentrate and spray the panel wipe down with plush cloth. this seems to remove the filling effect of the polish. sort of speeded up drop back. 

another good thing to have is a jewelers loupe they let you inspect very close up.


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## John @ PB (Aug 25, 2010)

karl_liverpool said:


> a little trick i have found is after polishing i dont use ipa. i use my glass cleaner concentrate and spray the panel wipe down with plush cloth. this seems to remove the filling effect of the polish. sort of speeded up drop back.
> 
> another good thing to have is a jewelers loupe they let you inspect very close up.


I assume you're referring to Meguiar's Glass Cleaner Concentrate?

If so, it has a high percentage content of Isopropyl Alcohol and also butoxyethanol so it's essentially doing the same job as IPA: think of it as IPA mixed with some other solvents.


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## karl_liverpool (Sep 25, 2008)

no joh i use cartec spray glass cleaner. it may well have some ipa in there, but i found it works better than ipa wipedown seems to show the true finish from what i have seen. and you can see the residue on the mf cloth afterwards. 
i got the idea from a surf-ace product i have called spray and finish.

the spray ad finish is designed for bodyshops after mopping to remove polish oils but works on glass and chrome too. got bored and played about with what i have cos my supplier said most products have more than one use.


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## dominic84 (Jan 27, 2007)

I agree with Mirror Finish, too much emphasis is put on this whole 'detailing' thing. As I've said before, it doesn't matter what you call it, at the end of the day a car is either clean or it isn't! 

Anyone can clean a car (remove dirt!), using a machine polisher is slightly harder and experience will definitely help. But, in my opinion you're either competent in it's use or you're aren't. If you aren't, then obviously you shouldn't be doing it for paying customers.

With regards to 'policing the industry', what's the point? If you go to a guy with no track record then you're a goon imo and should expect everything you get. Anyone with a track record will have had to have completed a string of good jobs beforehand, so by definition that puts the cowboys out of the running.


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## Magic Detail (Jul 25, 2010)

Beau Technique said:


> Seems imo, forums have a lot to be said for what they have created..


I agree with this. It worries me somewhat the amount of people that join here and within their first few posts (if not their _first_ post) open up a thread in the business section asking how to start and run a detailing business. Prior to forums, no muppet would be able to do this, and so, wouldn't get as much help and advice from a widespread community. It would appear that the whole art of detailing is being diluted by these individuals.

Forums these days are a wealth of information, but I often find they're overcrowded with know it alls and neverhasbeens, making it difficult to make informed decisions. The real people with the knowledge are the ones who rarely frequent such forums. As someone has mentioned KDS used to do alot of writeups, nowadays not so much - this could just be because they're busy, or equally it might just be because they can't be bothered anymore.

Talking about the subject of policing the industry, it's impossible. You can't police any industry, let alone something as niche as detailing. The people crying out for that are barking up the wrong tree IMO. The onus is almost entirely on the consumer, it's up to them to do their research (with or without forums :thumb. It's a harsh and bold statement to make, but it's true.


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## The_Bouncer (Nov 24, 2010)

^^ I would not call detailing a niche - I would call it an art. Some people have it some people don't.

We can all draw but don't all deem ourselves artists. The 'upper' end of detailing is always going to be managed by the artist that are good at it, with very little effect from whats happening below. Should they feel threatened ? why, if they are good then they are good - if they do feel threatened then it is how people up their game.

Facts of life, to be good in business be good at it. Many shall come and go - the artists shall remain. Never be in fear of a competitor but show respect at all times - Just be better :O)


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## Clark @ PB (Mar 1, 2006)

The_Bouncer said:


> ^^ I would not call detailing a niche - I would call it an art. Some people have it some people don't.
> 
> We can all draw but don't all deem ourselves artists. The 'upper' end of detailing is always going to be managed by the artist that are good at it, with very little effect from whats happening below. Should they feel threatened ? why, if they are good then they are good - if they do feel threatened then it is how people up their game.
> 
> Facts of life, to be good in business be good at it. Many shall come and go - the artists shall remain. Never be in fear of a competitor but show respect at all times - Just be better :O)


Couldn't have put it much better myself :thumb:


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## gally (May 25, 2008)

Dave KG said:


> Well said that man :thumb: Sums up perfectly my concerns for sure - as for the professional coming on to the forum and explaining themselves, that would indeed by nice, but highly unlikely I fear. The trouble is, as you allude to, one professional can tarnish the opinion of a new industry quite easily and it is all well and good concentrating on your own business which is what most detailers do, but if the industry itself is getting a bad name then that will stick to you as well, regardless of your reputation. In some ways, seeing the industry going this way with the larger and larger amounts of cowboys in it along with shifting attitudes makes me glad I am no longer a part of it.


If i've ever seen a post that saddened me that was it.

Very sorry to hear that, Dave. Utter shame to be honest.


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## DetailMyCar (Apr 19, 2010)

I think one thing that people are missing here though, is where a Pro Detailer can charge £400-£500 for a machine polish (correction) detail, "Most" people would be happy to pay £100 to someone doing it as a hobby that also take real pride in their work.

I'm not saying the hobbiest will achieve quite the 100% perfection, corrected finish that a Pro would get, but if the "Customer" is just wanting a lot of scratches, and the main bulk of their paintwork corrected i think money talks overall so they're just as happy spending £100 to get 90% of the finish, then paying £500 for perfection and then probably inflicting the 10% of swirls they've just paid to remove when they first wash it anyway..... 

If i owned a nice Ferrari, Porsche, Lambo i would pay for it to be detailed and looked after by a Pro but to own that car in the first place i'd be in a position to afford it anyway....

If Joe bloggs the 20 year old lad with a £3k car wants it looking 10 Times better and almost defect free, he's far more likely to pay someone £100 and be over the moon with it, then justify paying £500 for it to look perfect (as much as a £3k car anyway)

I know this thread is mainly about Professionals claiming to be something when they're obviously not, but i'm just defending all the "Little people" that i've also seen moaned about on here as i can completely see what value these people bring to Detailing (and DW) and i think it's a good way of "Becoming" a Pro should they ever want to another day as they're making a little bit of cash (usually just enough to buy more products with) and are learning by tackling all sorts of cars and learning new things each time they do a "detail"

I do agree that people shouldn't call themselves Pro without being able to back that up with certificates of training of some sort, or at least a minimum amount of cars they've done / years they've done it for but it's that same old thing with the Food industry, have a bad meal and you'll statistically tell 9 people, have a good one and you'll tell 2-3.

A "Bad" Pro Detailer won't be around for long if you ask me.


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## Chufster (Nov 21, 2010)

Just remember, the Titanic was built by professionals, but the Ark was built by an amature!

Being professional just means they charge money for what they do. It doesn't mean they do it well! I'm not having a pop at the professionals on here, whose work and attention to detail I can only dream of. Merely trying to provide some perspective. If I was to have my car professionally detailed, i'd be asking on here for reccomendations. I'd also probably pick somebody on here whose posts I had read, so I would have confidence in them.

I think one problem is the forum knowledge sharing. I'm not knocking DW, it happens on all forums and all over the internet. People offer up advice without any 'qualification' to do so. It's great for amatures as we can learn off other more experienced amatures and indeed the professionals. The problem can then occur when an amature tries to charge money, when their main source of knowledge is other amatures, who as well meaning as they may be, may not be speaking from a very experienced position.

For example take a thread on here I was reading earlier today where somebody was saying that they had read on here that EGP shouldn't be put on SRP as it will undo the work of the SRP. Somebody has posted that information, presumably in a well meaning manner, but also to my knowledge incorrectly! (Although I myself may be incorrect as i'm only an amature!! :lol


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## Flair (Dec 11, 2010)

Sorry but after sitting a reading this thread there is some Bull posts here, this not a knocking anyone. But detailing as we know it is not that Academic, it's not taught in any college and its been around since what the early 2000s if that.
Now people keep banging on and slating hobbiests and part timers doing Machine work, so i surpose when the pros started there own business, They had degrees in machine polishing, they had studied it etc. 
No they all started out exactly the same as anyone coming here and wanting to start it now. Ok there are alot of people who are dead heads with not clue and no experiance atall but not everyone.

Just take look through the interview section, almost all detailiers here started out as hobbiest or just a valeter. Then the market opened up to Machine polishing and detailing, so they taught them selfs. They become what they are today by doing it progressing as they did more and more cars. If people was following some of the advise here, " customers should no better than go to someone whos not what they class as a pro". Then we would have no Detailers atall, people became what they are by doing this and working on peoples cars.

Now I am not trying offend or insight riot, but some of the narrow minded comments about take the biscuit.


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## Chufster (Nov 21, 2010)

Flair said:


> Sorry but after sitting a reading this thread there is some Bull posts here, this not a knocking anyone. But detailing as we know it is not that Academic, it's not taught in any college and its been around since what the early 2000s if that.
> Now people keep banging on and slating hobbiests and part timers doing Machine work, so i surpose when the pros started there own business, They had degrees in machine polishing, they had studied it etc.
> No they all started out exactly the same as anyone coming here and wanting to start it now. Ok there are alot of people who are dead heads with not clue and no experiance atall but not everyone.
> 
> ...


+1

It all depends on the individual. Somebody that has practised extensively and has learned how to machine polish their own cars to perfection, will most likely do a good job on somebody else's car.

Then somebody who has read a few threads, quickly run a DA over their own bonnet and then start charging money, will most likely not do a good job.

It's down to the 'professionalism' of the individual and that is a state of mind and attitude that doesn't come with a certificate or an invoice.


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## Beau Technique (Jun 21, 2010)

nickg123 said:


> I think one thing that people are missing here though, is where a Pro Detailer can charge £400-£500 for a machine polish (correction) detail, "Most" people would be happy to pay £100 to someone doing it as a hobby that also take real pride in their work.
> 
> I'm not saying the hobbiest will achieve quite the 100% perfection, corrected finish that a Pro would get, but if the "Customer" is just wanting a lot of scratches, and the main bulk of their paintwork corrected i think money talks overall so they're just as happy spending £100 to get 90% of the finish, then paying £500 for perfection and then probably inflicting the 10% of swirls they've just paid to remove when they first wash it anyway.....
> 
> ...


The argument of this will go round and round but in all honesty, folks charging £100 for what is supposedly a "detail" carried out in a day isnt going to be that great. Sure, there is plenty of hobbiests that are great at what they do and some folks are lucky enough to get there cars done on the cheap and they are done very well, BUT, there are a lot popping on the likes of here ( not just here obviously ) have a go and think, "hey, I can make some good beer tokens from this" and botch the job and end up tarnishing the "detailer" name. Car forums are predomemnant for this now and so many are popping up threads "details for £50.00" what does that cover? Barely anything. What has to be considered is the full running costs of a fully sustainable business. A multitude of insurances, running and maintenance of vehicle ( if mobile ) running /heating/water/fueal/business/tax ( if static in unit ) promotional work I:E advertising etc, it all mounts up then usual tax/NI and then you can take a wage. It isnt all fluffy clouds, flash cars and big cash all the time tbh.


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## The_Bouncer (Nov 24, 2010)

^^ :thumb:
".. It isnt all fluffy clouds, flash cars and big cash all the time tbh..."

brilliant sentence - may save that as a sig line if ok BT ?


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## Beau Technique (Jun 21, 2010)

The_Bouncer said:


> ^^ :thumb:
> ".. It isnt all fluffy clouds, flash cars and big cash all the time tbh..."
> 
> brilliant sentence - may save that as a sig line if ok BT ?


Feel free.


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## beko1987 (Jul 25, 2010)

I think that being a detailer isn't all about the look of a car when you've finished. I think a good chunk of it is the knowledge behind you. 

Anyone can clean a car well, heck I used to brag about my 206 since te paint wasn't very swirley it came up like new! However ask me a question about the best APC to use for getting old oil off the bottom of the sump and I'l probably struggle! Or what's the best way to apply tape, or the best product for x etc. A detailer knows all the answers, with real life stories to back them up.

A good friend of mine recently bought a 'new' ca, which has very bad marring and light scratches all over some of the panels. I started to tell him about wetsanding, using the knowledge I've gained on here, but hand me some 1800gt and a DA and you'll see clearcote as I've never done it before. I've seen some of the work done by amateurs on here via the studio threads various before pics, it's like the work the polish plasteres did on our hallway - appalling and should be stamped out! (I stamped on the floor and the skim coat on the ceiling fell off...)

The look of the car is 40%, knowledge and power are the other 60% (IMO)


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## DetailMyCar (Apr 19, 2010)

Beau Technique said:


> The argument of this will go round and round but in all honesty, folks charging £100 for what is supposedly a "detail" carried out in a day isnt going to be that great. Sure, there is plenty of hobbiests that are great at what they do and some folks are lucky enough to get there cars done on the cheap and they are done very well, BUT, there are a lot popping on the likes of here ( not just here obviously ) have a go and think, "hey, I can make some good beer tokens from this" and botch the job and end up tarnishing the "detailer" name. Car forums are predomemnant for this now and so many are popping up threads "details for £50.00" what does that cover? Barely anything. What has to be considered is the full running costs of a fully sustainable business. A multitude of insurances, running and maintenance of vehicle ( if mobile ) running /heating/water/fueal/business/tax ( if static in unit ) promotional work I:E advertising etc, it all mounts up then usual tax/NI and then you can take a wage. It isnt all fluffy clouds, flash cars and big cash all the time tbh.


If you're going to reply to what I wrote at least read what I said lol. The finish as you say may not be "that great" but 99% of people wanting Massive improvement would still prefer to pay 100 to get 90% of the result. Unless the car is a top TOP end sports, weekend car I don't think they would be fussed about 100% correction as like I say that extra 10% improvement they get from spending 500 will be re-inflicted when they wash the car anyway. No paint job stays 100% perfect if the car is actually driven and washed so I think 100 for a 90% correction and extreme care and attention from someone doing it as a hobby (someone who is doing it because they WANT to) is a great option for most people who just want major improvement and a great finish


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## Beau Technique (Jun 21, 2010)

Downside to that is a knock on effect on the trade eventually. Valeting used to be quite good money but after all the scratch washes, so many folk always reply after a quote 
"I can get it done for a tenner at the carwash". The well established will be fine as the clientel that use those services no what they want and are confident and happy with what they are receiving at the end of it. Im not knocking the hobbiest but the influx of cheap details going on in the past few years is crazy.


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## Mirror Finish Details (Aug 21, 2008)

Doing some research and thanks to my brother in Texas.

Any business in the US has to be registered for their trade, and a complaint will be followed up via the Business Department who will act in arbitration between the customer and tradesman.

Having a valid business number will mean charging State Tax at current Texas rate of 8.2% that the tradesperson will pay to the government giving both parties cover if a dispute occurs.

OK, that is the US way, most US people will not pay for cash jobs in hand, usually pay via a card and will pay the State tax for the back up the State offers. And yes my brother wired up an electric gate wrong last year and they came dowm on him like a tonne of bricks, cost him over $1500 to sort it out and to keep his licence.

You cannot run a business in the States without a licence. The licence has to be placed on the property for all to see, and yes they actually have inspectors and police who are interested who look for work being done.

First problem here is you can run a business unregistered and as VAT is now 20% no wonder there are many cash jobs being done. Plus, have you ever contacted trading standards...useless.

Unless all business have to be registered to operate then things will never change.

ISO is all great, I used to work for an ISO9002 company many years ago and they had more people running the thing than in the accounts department.


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## Prism Detailing (Jun 8, 2006)

Mirror Finish said:


> First problem here is you can run a business unregistered and as VAT is now 20% no wonder there are many cash jobs being done. Plus, have you ever contacted trading standards...useless.


I have used tranding standards many times before and they have been fantastic, but I think detailing will be slightly difficult for them to deal with as they probably dont know what it is......


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