# Driving on ice - Nightmare



## slkman (Jun 23, 2009)

Just a bit of a rant really but Saturday I woke up to the snow and ice which was fine. The area around me hasn't been gritted as usual by the council which seems to be the norm even though a bus crashed into a house at the beginning of the year because of the icy roads and the council would review the route.

Anyway salted my drive and most of the cul-de-sac just as a bit of good will and a few people salted there driveways so it was ok but getting out of the estate is a right nightmare! I tackled it a couple of times over the weekend and on all occasions people where picking up bits of there cars, exchanging insurance details. One person had gone into a corner far to fast, missed it, went through a fence and hit a tree.

You get the picture, its very slippery. 

Just got back tonight and it's still the same and know one has done anything.

Would it be ok for someone, say me, take my rock salt and spread a little around on the corners and tricky bits or is there a law or something against this as there is just going to be a repeat of this tomorrow morning and no one seems that bothered?

Don't suppose the council will be that bothered either since they haven't bothered in the past.

Rant over


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## PLuKE (Mar 4, 2009)

I wouldnt. I have heard of people putting salt/grit down outside the front doors are on the pavement where public can walk on, if they see its been salted/gritted etc and they walk on it and all is well, then they slip on the ice you havent covered with salt then they can claim off you.


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## butcher (Sep 3, 2010)

slkman said:


> ..or is there a law or something against this as there is just going to be a repeat of this tomorrow morning and no one seems that bothered?


If there is (and it wouldn't surprise me), personally I'd ignore it. There's nothing this country needs more than people looking after, and taking pride in their local communities.

The council won't grit your estate. Not if you're off the main road anyway, no matter how long it lasts, or how bad it gets. So unless you do it, there's a good chance it won't get done.


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## mpkayeuk (Aug 3, 2007)

PLuKE said:


> I wouldnt. I have heard of people putting salt/grit down outside the front doors are on the pavement where public can walk on, if they see its been salted/gritted etc and they walk on it and all is well, then they slip on the ice you havent covered with salt then they can claim off you.


This is an urban myth surely. If you do something to make things worse, then sure, you can be sued. But if you actually grit something and make things better (regardless of things you miss) I can't see any judge in the land coming down against you.

In fact, thinking about this. In the countryside, councils keep local grit bins topped up at the side of the road precisely so that locals can apply it themselves.


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## renny (Aug 31, 2009)

butcher said:


> If there is (and it wouldn't surprise me), personally I'd ignore it. There's nothing this country needs more than people looking after, and taking pride in their local communities.
> 
> The council won't grit your estate. Not if you're off the main road anyway, no matter how long it lasts, or how bad it gets. So unless you do it, there's a good chance it won't get done.


I'm with butcher on this.

Just do it mate, if you're concerned then do it after dark so there's a chance nobody will know who it is anyway.:thumb:


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## J1ODY A (Nov 28, 2008)

I believe that you can ring your local council & ask them specially to grit roads etc... my Mum did it last year as her close always looks like worlds end even though everywhere else is fine. She had the gritter go through within 24 hours!


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## slkman (Jun 23, 2009)

butcher said:


> If there is (and it wouldn't surprise me), personally I'd ignore it. There's nothing this country needs more than people looking after, and taking pride in their local communities.
> 
> The council won't grit your estate. Not if you're off the main road anyway, no matter how long it lasts, or how bad it gets. So unless you do it, there's a good chance it won't get done.


Personally I'm amazed no-one else has done anything, people are just happy to foot the insurance bill which I assume will be going up for everyone.

The urban myth/law is firmly etched in peoples minds as I was chatting to a few people today about it and they are crapping themselves clearing there driveways in case the melted water runs into the road and re-freazes and someone sues etc. Pure madness.


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## M4hood (Sep 21, 2010)

I am reading your post quite surprised really, I too live in an Estate and outside my house is a really nasty bend that goes down hill, The road department have left a bin full of grit on the other side of the road, (like in several parts around the town I must add). So saying this I assume that the "law" surely cannot hold anyone liable for gritting the area. I know I live in Northern Ireland but we do have all the same laws here as main land UK.


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## renny (Aug 31, 2009)

J1ODY A said:


> I believe that you can ring your local council & ask them specially to grit roads etc... my Mum did it last year as her close always looks like worlds end even though everywhere else is fine. She had the gritter go through within 24 hours!


That really surprises me,how big is the close?

TBH not sure I'd want a big gritter going through the street unless it was controlled ie not scattering all over the drives!

A grit box in the street would be better.


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## renny (Aug 31, 2009)

M4hood said:


> I am reading your post quite surprised really, I too live in an Estate and outside my house is a really nasty bend that goes down hill, The road department have left a bin full of grit on the other side of the road, (like in several parts around the town I must add). So saying this I assume that the "law" surely cannot hold anyone liable for gritting the area. I know I live in Northern Ireland but we do have all the same laws here as main land UK.


Spot on, good point.


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## butcher (Sep 3, 2010)

slkman said:


> Personally I'm amazed no-one else has done anything, people are just happy to foot the insurance bill which I assume will be going up for everyone.


This is the thing. People don't even think to do it anymore. We live in this structured, spoon fed society, where the expectations are that it's not up to us to clear the street that we live in. We have the attitude that it's not our job, so we won't do it. We'll just sit and wait around for someone to clear up after us. Of course, if we go through someone's fence, it's not our fault..

That's a sad thing, I think.



> The urban myth/law is firmly etched in peoples minds as I was chatting to a few people today about it and they are crapping themselves clearing there driveways in case the melted water runs into the road and re-freazes and someone sues etc. Pure madness.


It is pure madness. And another reason to do it, in my eyes. I can't just sit back and allow that madness to happen.


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## Richors (Apr 29, 2007)

I live about 2 miles from a main road and grit boxes are on the bend at the end of the lane for people in the village to use so it must be legal.
More snow tonight than the salt can handle easily though - lol


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## mpkayeuk (Aug 3, 2007)

There is no law... it's just the usual case of if you do something to endanger someone then you are liable. This is true on the road or in any public place. How gritting the road could be construed as endangerment I will never know.

The myth comes from people using water to clear snow and ice from footpaths only for it to freeze later and be made much worse - that IS endangerment and you could be sued for it civilly. Clearly the application of road salt would not lead to further endangerment and, as such, there is no problem with doing it.


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## Guest (Nov 28, 2010)

I'm not certain but I am not sure it is a myth, I believe people have indeed been sued. It is because they have provided a false sense of security (or at least that has been the argument).

Personally, with this in mind, I would not be taking the risk. If there wasn't the chance of getting my ass sued then I would grit my driveway and the road outside happily, but until then, I will keep my nose out and leave it up to the council (or not).

Indeed it is crazy because in this economic crisis, councils would save tons of money if they empowered people to do their community bit, but that's a massive debate of its own.


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## mpkayeuk (Aug 3, 2007)

G220, no point persisting what is definitely a myth. As has been mentioned... councils actually keep grit bins filled during winter for locals in more rural areas to apply to roads themselves.

As I said before, no judge would ever rule against someone gritting a road because it provided a false sense of security. This would imply that you knew the road was gritted when you had your accident (otherwise where's the sense of security coming from)... which would also suggest you were aware the roads were potentially frozen (otherwise why grit). I know there are some stupid laws (and judges out there), but I'm pretty sure they're not quite _that_ stupid yet.

Of course, if you can show evidence that this has happened then I'll eat my words, but I would be absolutely amazed, not to mention very disappointed, if someone was prosecuted because they did other road users a favour and gritted a road in winter. If evidence can be found I will personally write a letter to David Cameron and ask him to tackle such judgements as they are clearly not in accordance with his "Big Society" ideas. Not to mention just plain daft!

The key point is that if you make the situation on the road or path better than it was, then you should never fear being sued. Like I said before, people have been sued for clearing snow from footpaths using water, etc, which has subsequently frozen with the obvious consequences... but this is making the situation worse in a way that gritting certainly would not.


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## Guest (Nov 28, 2010)

I do not know first hand of anyone getting sued, so as mentioned I could well be wrong.

I can however relate it to other things apart from gritting when you meddle with things the council are supposed to do, such as trimming hedges and mowing lawns etc when it is the job of the council, they take a dim view of you doing this because "you aren't insured" etc etc.

I wouldn't be putting my hands in grit bins anyhow without gloves because we have all heard the stories about needles being put in there.


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## GolfFanBoy (May 23, 2010)

Bit of info from a quick Google:-

http://www.scambs.gov.uk/PolicingAndPublicSafety/snowClearance.htm
http://www.medway.gov.uk/transportandstreets/streets/snowclearance/snowclearanceguidance.aspx

The main bit from that site:-



> *The law on clearing snow and ice from public spaces*
> There is no law stopping you from clearing snow and ice on the pavement outside your property, pathways to your property or public spaces.
> 
> If an accident did happen, it's highly unlikely that you would be sued as long as you are careful and use common sense to make sure that you don't make the pavement or pathway clearly more dangerous than before.People using areas affected by snow and ice also have responsibility to be careful themselves.


'Highly unlikely' doesn't mean you can't be held responsible I guess  Surely the council should pick up the cost considering the pavements are their responsibility? Soon nobody will do anything for fear of being sued... I'll be out clearing our drive and I'd hope anyone out walking will appreciate the dangers of ice as I would.


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## Lee.GTi180 (Apr 28, 2010)

Not sure about a public road but on the industrial estate where I work an ex-employee was helping to push one of our vans out of the snow and slipped and hurt his knee in the ice.

When he left the company, a couple of weeks passed and my boss had a letter through from his solicitors indicating the former employee was taking him to court over the incident.

As we had put nothing down to get rid of the ice, it was construed as an "act of God" and thrown out. However it was made clear if something had been done to battle the ice and he still slipped then my boss would've been liable.

Don't think this would apply on public roads though surely?


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## mpkayeuk (Aug 3, 2007)

Golf, you absolutely can be held responsible, of course you can (just as you could be if someone slipped on a banana skin you threw on the pavement). But you can only be responsible for something if you make things worse.

It's hard to see how using grit could ever make things worse.


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## Guest (Nov 28, 2010)

I believe (supposedly) you make it worse by visibly placing grit. What you have (again supposedly) done is say "hey, I have gritted this surface, so it's now safe for you to walk on", you have lulled them into a false sense of security into walking onto that surface.

What about if they slip and the particles of grit is what cuts them?


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## mpkayeuk (Aug 3, 2007)

Lee, health and safety law is a completely different kettle of fish if you are responsible for someone's safety in the way an employer is. If the employer had said, "Take care, it's cold and slippy out there. Don't do anything you think might get you hurt." Then the guy wouldn't have had a leg to stand on (metaphorically speaking  ) regardless of whether the road was gritted or not. Employers have a duty of care to their employees.


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## mpkayeuk (Aug 3, 2007)

G220 said:


> I believe (supposedly) you make it worse by visibly placing grit. What you have (again supposedly) done is say "hey, I have gritted this surface, so it's now safe for you to walk on", you have lulled them into a false sense of security into walking onto that surface.
> 
> What about if they slip and the particles of grit is what cuts them?


That doesn't wash at all. The grit is there for a reason, it's because it's icy. Any normal person would realise this. Also, you can only sue if you have something to sue for. A cut hand would only be sufficient in very specific circumstances... For e.g. the person was a hand model and could prove they had lost income as a result of the accident. It's not sufficient that they might have lost income... they have to prove they actually did lose income.

The false sense of security thing is a massive red herring. The council tell me all the time that the safe speed on my local road is no faster than 30MPH. They even put up big red and white signs to make sure I know this. Maybe I should sue them when I have an accident at 30MPH because they lulled me into a false sense of security 

Anyhow, there's plenty of evidence on here, including from council websites to suggest it is precisely an urban myth and nothing more.


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## Ben_W (Feb 15, 2009)

slkman said:


> Just a bit of a rant really but Saturday I woke up to the snow and ice which was fine. The area around me hasn't been gritted as usual by the council which seems to be the norm even though a bus crashed into a house at the beginning of the year because of the icy roads and the council would review the route.
> 
> Rant over


You live in Thorpe Astley per chance??


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## slkman (Jun 23, 2009)

Ben_W said:


> You live in Thorpe Astley per chance??


That would be correct :thumb:


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## slkman (Jun 23, 2009)

Maybe the council should provide signs you can put at the end of driveways and beside roads to warn of grit and ice surely your not liable then since there is a sign? When the gas board or whoever dig a massive hole and someone falls down it then as long as there is a sign then no-one is liable?

Anyway David Camerons community spirit is message is never going to work if we can't work together and get rid of a bit of ice but instead we all plug together, in this area anyway to do that stupid community speed watch thing where you get pulled over for doing 32 in a 30!... but thats a different rant


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## apmaman (Jun 8, 2010)

Isn't that what the salt bins are for?

For the public to clear the immediate area of there house where gritters can obviously not reach? 
I mean sure I'd love a team of council workers to come in and clear the streets completely of snow, but its not gonna happen


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## Pezza4u (Jun 7, 2007)

What's a salt bin! Don't even have one where I live!


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## apmaman (Jun 8, 2010)

Big yellow box with salt in it


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## Pezza4u (Jun 7, 2007)

apmaman said:


> Big yellow box with salt in it


I know that, I was being sarky cos we don't have any! Although there is a box at the top of the hill but it's always empty. Really need one for my road though as it's on a slight incline and people were having trouble getting up it at the start of the year.


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## Stumper (Apr 5, 2009)

Surely if someone's stupid enough to fall on an icy pavement whether it's gritted or not it's their own fault.
It amazes me that you now appear to be able to sue people due to acts of your own stupidity!

Along the same lines, I was working last year when we had the long cold spell and around the part of London where I work the snow just froze over and never thawed out for a couple of weeks or so.
Now bearing in mind that it was pretty much white everywhere with the snow, we got called to someone who'd fallen in a park. We go there in the Ambulance and could barely walk on the ice to get to the patient in the park as it was so slippery. 
We get there and there's a dozy bint laying on the floor with a quite obviously broken wrist. We get her up and into the Ambo and she starts telling us how she's going to sue the Council because it's their park that she'd slipped in
I helpfully pointed out to her that if she hadn't worn high heels to walk through a frozen, snowy park she'd probably not have slipped and that it was her own fault. She starts getting all irate with me and then a couple of weeks later sends in an official complaint about my attitude and how I wasn't helpful to her:doublesho

Some people


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## AndyC (Oct 25, 2005)

No idea how many hours I spent with neighbours digging our road out last time but without some of us taking the initiative no-one was going anywhere fast. We therefore set about the 12" of snow and cleared the initial dump, then spread rock salt to try and keep it clear. This was next to useless when the next load came but we stuck at it, resorting to dishwasher salt when the grit ran out.

The main road through my estate wasn't clear for days and we didn't touch it - only our own street. We pushed God knows how many cars clear when they ignored our suggestion that venturing into the uncleared snow would end in tears - BMW's seemed to be the most hilarious on the snow & ice (like watching a newborn foal trying to stand).

My Dad used to say that they keep bus routes clear but that wasn't the case the last couple of times we had snow as it was all but undriveable the last 2 years.

No-one fell over - apart from one or two of us when we were clearing and nobody sued anyone. My take is that it's a neigbourly thing to do if the weather becomes nasty and the day that changes is the day I leave the UK.


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## dwmc (Jun 6, 2010)

i live in a cul de sac which is on a slight slope , we used to have a grit bin by the entrance and seen i was up at 4.30 i`de give the whole street a light sprinkle of the stuff , some mates said i was mad but the truth is previously through these snowey icey conditions them who live at top of cul de sac couldn`t get up the street so just dumped there car out side my house meaning i wasn`t able to get car off the driveway without the risk of hitting another car . 

then becuase of the shortage of grit at beggining of the year the grit bin has now dissapeared , now i aint paying for the grit myself so my other option is that any cars stopping me getting out of my driveway won`t be in the same place the owner left it :lol: 

point being is all it takes is a little common sense which these days there seems to be a hell of alot of people lacking in this department .


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## Dan_Knightsval (Nov 10, 2010)

Just grit it if you think it will help people. Put it this way, can it really make it any worse than it already is. We need more people like you in society. Just do what you believe in. A grit box should be provided anyway.


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## slkman (Jun 23, 2009)

Just got in this evening to find all the roads have been gritted and are perfect again!! Shocking! 

Moan on detailing world and things get done


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## apmaman (Jun 8, 2010)

I wish I had bought that Road Legal Quad that was on gumtree, seen a really cheap quad snow plow and I could have done the street in a flash!


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## andyedge (Aug 25, 2009)

It seems really obvious to me, but there is far too much of a 'Where there's blame there's a claim' mentality in society today. Much of it probably instigated by lawyers who see it as a quick way to make money for themselves. 
Common sense seems no longer to apply. 

For example, if you slipped on your own kitchen floor because it was wet would you sue your spouse for mopping the kitchen floor?

Of course not!

If it turns out they only mopped the floor because your son or daughter had spilt something, would you sue your son or daughter?

Of course not!

You would just put it down to yourself being a dozy [email protected] for slipping on the wet floor.

The main reason for everyone's insurance costs going up year on year is due to the rise in these kind of claims (therefore lawyer's profits) every year.

This also creates more & more stupid f***ing Health & Safety rules which companies have to follow.

/rant over


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## Sharpy (Mar 25, 2007)

It should be like what happens in most states in america in which it is compulsory to clear your path etc

You can get fined up to $250 in some states for each day the snow isnt cleared, I think its a bloody good idea, its annoyed the hell out of me this past week, we live 2/3 of the way up a bank its a horsehoe shape bank, you can go up either side and around the top and down the other side. Now the other side is great they all muck in and always have their side cleared before us.

Our side theres only 1 guy 2 doors down who does his drive and the road outside his, theres me who does our drive and the bank from ours down and this year for a change 1 other bloke over the road has cleared the bank outside his house, yet all the other lazy buggers watch us battle with the snow and then just come out and drive down the bank we have cleared and gritted ( when we had grit - the bins been empty a week now) but they just brazenly drive up and down and dont give a **** who has cleared it, it really gets on my nerves. 

There was a council ride on lawnmover/converted snow plow come round last night and i caught him and asked about the grit and he said someone was following behind with grit, yet no one turned up and the bank he plowed which leaves behing a thin covering all froze up and created an ice rink, after we had cleared and salted (using household salt) 2 nice tracks for people to get down in on the morning, its madness it really is.

Managed to get out today in the car ( which is now abandoned at the top of the street as again no one had bothered their backside to clear our side of the street) and all the main roads havent even been gritted its a joke, they have been taking the buses off at 7pm each night, if they gritted the main roads they could at least keep a skeleton service on it really does take the pi$$. 

Im annoyed. I also need to get to devon to pick up my new 4x4 too. grrrr.


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## SNAKEBITE (Feb 22, 2010)

If everyone cleared the pavement and the road covering the width of their property then it would be no hassle.
But no.
People are just too bloody lazy or stupid to do it.


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## maxtherotti (Mar 2, 2009)

dwmc said:


> point being is all it takes is a little common sense which these days there seems to be a hell of alot of people lacking in this department .


alas common sense is not too common these days


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## Matt197 (Dec 27, 2006)

If you think it will make a difference then just do it, the likelihood of you getting sued is so slim you have got more chance of getting hit by lightning.

Lets face it you have to be pretty low to sue someone for trying to help, I know it happens but come on, if it means you can get to work then its worth the risk.


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## SNAKEBITE (Feb 22, 2010)

I don't know why the council don't drop a few 25kg bags off at the each of road and let the residents do it themselves.

Oh yes that's right, some lowlife will either steal it or just kick it around. Either that or it will still be there in June because nobody can be bothered to do it!


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## RobRX8 (Feb 14, 2010)

Yeah, weather is causing quite a bit of disruption.

Our council have hit new highs...of laziness...and are asking people to clear the paths & roads for them :lol:
We also have to sort our own bin collection out it seems, no way they are getting up the hill here (and we have just gone to fortnightly collections)

This month's council tax is due today...wonder if I should ask them to pay it themselves as I can't be arsed  

I still have a courtesy car buried on my drive, should have been collected yesterday, and I couldnt pick my new car up today as the delivery of service parts never arrived 
On the plus side, our CRV is awesome in the snow, got me to the shops & back no problem in this...Although it doesnt do 4wd reversing :lol:


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## ashk (Aug 11, 2008)

Some of the problems for the gritters they cant get down some streets as you get people parking in the middle of the road leaving there cars there and parking oposite each other so there is barley room for a smart car to fit through.

I was behind a gritter and it indicated to go down a street pulled in a bit they swung back out i was wondering why it didnt go down but noticed cars dotted left right and centre.

As for the gritting the street i have heard the same about they can claim off you bloody ridiculous if you ask me.


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## Gleams (Jul 26, 2010)

Do it..then deny all knowledge! Some people really are sad enough to sue, so make sure they do a proper job of falling over if you see them coming..!


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## HEADPHONES (Jan 1, 2008)

I have been doing the T junction and 45deg bend on our road for the past 2 snow attacks. Costs me the price of 2 bags of rocksalt and a bit of time.
Nobody else ever bothers and sometimes I feel a bit of a prat but I get a benefit out of it and it's so cold I'm hooded up at the time anyway so who could prove beyond a shadow of a doubt it was me anyway


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