# Collinite 476 Vs BH Finis Test - Long Term



## Flakey (May 5, 2013)

I wanted to test one of the Collinite Waxes against the Bilt Hamber Finis Wax for quite some time now. After reading Sheep's three way test thread (C476, BH Finis and FK1000P), I decided to man up.

A good comparison would be between C915 and BH Finis as both are high Carnuba Waxes. However, I did not want to buy a Collinite so a friend offered some C476S and I decided to put it up against my pot of Finis today.

I have applied one coat of each wax to half of the Bonnet of my car. I plan to add another coat of each wax this weekend. After that, I will test the durability for at least 60-90 days without using any top up wax or sealant. I have the rest of the car and a few other cars to play around with other waxes and sealants. The car will be washed mostly with ONR with an occasional shampoo wash maybe once a month.

I prepared the panel with the following products:
1. ONR Wash
2. Iron-X
3. ONR Wash
4. Clay
5. Scholl S20 Blue Compound on Scholl Orange Foam pad and then the same compound on a CG Hex Yellow Compounding Pad
6. Menzerna SF4500 on a CG Hex Black Finishing Pad
7. IPA Wipe down
8. Collinite 476S on left side of the panel - One coat
9. Bilt Hamber Finis Wax on the right side of the panel - One coat
10. Removed after hazing with a BH Towel with ONR sprayed on it














































I thought of throwing on some of my other favourite LSPs but these two are so highly rated worldwide that I decided to restrict to these two waxes.

And yes, I can see the streaks from some of the wax that seems to have not been removed completely. I will hit it with some ONR tomorrow.


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## shakey85 (Aug 20, 2013)

Great test.

Quick question though - does ONR not leave behind little protection of its own when used? As it is being used over both it will be fair between them however may make them last a bit longer than they normally would if washed with something like autowash. I could be completely wrong here.

Not slating the test in the slightest and as I bought some BH Finis Wax I will be watching this to see how it gets on!


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## lowejackson (Feb 23, 2006)

shakey85 said:


> Great test.
> 
> Quick question though - does ONR not leave behind little protection of its own when used? As it is being used over both it will be fair between them however may make them last a bit longer than they normally would if washed with something like autowash. I could be completely wrong here.
> 
> Not slating the test in the slightest and as I bought some BH Finis Wax I will be watching this to see how it gets on!


I would imagine the ONR will not last very long on the wax


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## Sheep (Mar 20, 2009)

Be interesting to see how your results compare to mine.


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## evotuning (Oct 16, 2009)

> 9. Bilt Hamber Finis Wax on the right side of the panel - One coat
> 10. Removed after hazing with a BH Towel with ONR sprayed on it


Why did You use ONR on freshly applied wax ?


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## Flakey (May 5, 2013)

evotuning said:


> Why did You use ONR on freshly applied wax ?


I am paranoid about touching the paint with a dry towel. Anything wrong with using ONR to remove the wax? I thought a lot of people do that.


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## evotuning (Oct 16, 2009)

You don't need to be worried about touching Your paint with any quality MF towel. 

ONR is full packed of polymers and other chemistry, personally I wouldn't touch freshly applied wax, before it got fully cured with any QD, as it will always alter wax characteristics in some way. 

I often see that people here use frequently QD's while removing wax, and I don't actually understand why would they do it. Properly applied wax should be breeze to buff off without using any artificial help.


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## AGRE (Sep 25, 2008)

evotuning said:


> You don't need to be worried about touching Your paint with any quality MF towel.
> 
> ONR is full packed of polymers and other chemistry, personally I wouldn't touch freshly applied wax, before it got fully cured with any QD, as it will always alter wax characteristics in some way.
> 
> I often see that people here use frequently QD's while removing wax, and I don't actually understand why would they do it. Properly applied wax should be breeze to buff off without using any artificial help.


what he said 

..out of interest, which side had streaks?


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## Davide82 (Sep 17, 2013)

evotuning said:


> You don't need to be worried about touching Your paint with any quality MF towel.
> 
> ONR is full packed of polymers and other chemistry, personally I wouldn't touch freshly applied wax, before it got fully cured with any QD, as it will always alter wax characteristics in some way.
> 
> I often see that people here use frequently QD's while removing wax, and I don't actually understand why would they do it. Properly applied wax should be breeze to buff off without using any artificial help.


I dont think its because the wax was hard to buff off - i think the OP did this as more of a lubricant to ease the process and further minimise marring
- I wouldnt do it myself, but can see why it was done


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## Flakey (May 5, 2013)

AGRE said:


> what he said
> 
> ..out of interest, which side had streaks?


Both. Paste waxes is not my favourite form of LSPs. I do better with liquids - Duragloss, Reload, C2V3, OCW etc. I applied both the waxes very thin today but maybe left them to haze for a little too long. Also, the Bilt Hamber towels are on the plush side and not very good for wax removal. I have never had any trouble with the Dodo waxes though.



evotuning said:


> You don't need to be worried about touching Your paint with any quality MF towel.
> 
> ONR is full packed of polymers and other chemistry, personally I wouldn't touch freshly applied wax, before it got fully cured with any QD, as it will always alter wax characteristics in some way.
> 
> I often see that people here use frequently QD's while removing wax, and I don't actually understand why would they do it. Properly applied wax should be breeze to buff off without using any artificial help.


I plan to apply a second coat over the weekend but after an ONR wash. I guess you'd recommend a shampoo wash instead? I will avoid the ONR to remove the wax this time.


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## evotuning (Oct 16, 2009)

> I guess you'd recommend a shampoo wash instead?


Yes, definitely. I would even use just a tiny bit stronger ratio, to make sure ONR residue is gone. I see that You plan washing car with ONR throughout the test. I would also advise against it if You have place and time to conduct proper wash, with shampoo that contains no additives.


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## Flakey (May 5, 2013)

While I do see the merit in not using ONR to remove freshly applied wax, I want to conduct a real world test. And by that I mean a lot of us use ONR, UWW and other rinse less and water less products on a regular basis to maintain our cars. Even if ONR were to add any protection, it would do so to both the waxes and hence they are still on the same footing.

However, I think the protection element of ONR is over rated. It's a brilliant rinse less wash and may cause sheeting and beading on day zero. But by day one, I don't think there is anything left. I have been using ONR, UWW, CG HFE and Duragloss RW for about 2 years now and I have not seen them interfere with my LSPs other than the additional slickness which is very temporary.


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## suspal (Dec 29, 2011)

Well I look forward to your findings and see how the two products stand up in the Indian climate:thumb:


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## Flakey (May 5, 2013)

Steve has answered very well about ONR polymers and whether they affect the LSP or not (No. 19, 20 & 21) in his ONR thread. http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=195294


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## sm81 (May 14, 2011)

Can you quete that part of it? It is quite long thread.


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## evotuning (Oct 16, 2009)

Sure, problem is that he himself states that he can't say nothing about possible reaction with LSP, so I don't know from where You took Your conclusion.

Nevertheless, do as You like.


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## Flakey (May 5, 2013)

sm81 said:


> Can you quete that part of it? It is quite long thread.


Sure.

*(19) Is ONR LSP safe?*
Yes! Not only that, it has its own polymers that provide a little protection and
reflectivity of their own. _This is nothing more than a microscopic layer that
will afford no more than a very temporary protection window. _ This layer does
provide an excellent base for applying any protective coating over it.
*

(20) Does ONR limit my LSP choice?*
Not that I'm aware of. The polymer coating left behind by ONR only provides a
short protection window. The only possible exemption is when cleaning surfaces
where nano technology products have already been applied - see below.

However, there is no reason to not use ONR before applying nano-products.
IMO, far too much is made of the polymers left behind by ONR. It's nowhere
near the levels left behind by a wash and wax shampoo! Many LSPs have some
form of solvent within them which will soon cut through the microscopic ONR
layer anyway.

*
(21) Will ONR affect other nano-technology treatments?*
Probably. The reason for this being that, by their very nature, the ONR polymers
are not nano fine. I doubt that ONR will be on its own here, so I don't think
this precludes you from using it. The cleaning will still be very thorough and
ONR's polymers will provide only temporary covering of the nano coating; i.e.
normal "weathering" will very soon reveal the original nano layer.

The judgement call here is the level of cleaning required. If, however, you're
more concerned about beading patterns directly after a wash, then ONR probably won't be for you. Unlike the windscreen, I would _not_ advocate using just plain water to wash a nano-coated car, especially if ONR solves a water access problem for you at any time of the year.


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## NipponShine (Jun 19, 2012)

If this is in a hot climate, findings will be interesting since many products are weaker in such circumstances


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## Lowiepete (Mar 29, 2009)

shakey85 said:


> Quick question though - does ONR not leave behind little protection of its own when used?


ONR will do that with regular washing. I'm reading this as a clean down some
hours after application. As below...


Flakey said:


> And yes, I can see the streaks from some of the wax that seems to have not been removed completely. I will hit it with some ONR tomorrow.





evotuning said:


> Why did You use ONR on freshly applied wax ?


Why not? I'd advocate using ONR as a primer for your wax applicator pad.
That helps ensure you get the thinnest layers of wax. If you leave the wax
on for too long, ONR would be a perfect lubricant to help the MF cloth along.
The OP only mentioned a light misting on his buffing cloth.


evotuning said:


> You don't need to be worried about touching Your paint with any quality MF towel.


That really depends! Obviously, I'm reading this from some way off, but I've
watched a few people wax their cars with it giving me an overwhelming 
feeling of exhaustion, they put so much grind into it. There can be a problem
with long pile MF cloths where there is a temptation to "make them work" by
pressing a tad too hard.



evotuning said:


> ONR is full packed of polymers and other chemistry, personally I wouldn't touch freshly applied wax, before it got fully cured with any QD, as it will always alter wax characteristics in some way.


At the 32:1 dilution ratio, I very much doubt that will be the case. I would 
agree with all that you say if the OP was using a finishing QD like FK #425
at full strength. ONR is polymer rich but they're mainly non-soapy surfactants
that help with lubrication and clean evaporation.



evotuning said:


> I would even use just a tiny bit stronger ratio, to make sure ONR residue is gone. I see that You plan washing car with ONR throughout the test. I would also advise against it if You have place and time to conduct proper wash, with shampoo that contains no additives.


I'm really not sure where you are seeing harm here. There may be a confusion
over which ONR the OP is using. Seeing as has quoted from the Wash & Shine
thread, I'm assuming that is what he's using. You could be correct if he was
using ONR Wash & Wax. I think you are making far too much of this "residue"!



evotuning said:


> Sure, problem is that he himself states that he can't say nothing about possible reaction with LSP, so I don't know from where You took Your conclusion.


Do I? I'm not sure that I agree, especially as your double-negative slightly
confuses matters.

My reading of the situation is that the OP, despite his claim of applying the
wax thinly, has probably still applied it slightly too thickly. I no longer use flat 
waxing applicators, for me it's waffle based ones all the way. If applying
purely liquid coatings like OptiSeal, then I would favour a flat applicator.

Here's a method to ensure you get very thin coatings, whether products are 
paste or mayonnaise style...

Prime the pad with ONR W+S first 
Squeeze out the excess liquid 
One light dab at the wax
Work that well into the applicator for a good 30 secs or more
Apply with very light brisk straight strokes
Buff off with very light strokes almost immediately
If you need more wax, one quick slightly harder dab, with pad stationary(!)
Pick up that wax quickly and spread with further light brisk strokes
Avoid replenishing the pad with wax at next panel unless it's really necessary
Most people, i.e. those outside of DW, will ladle the wax on, and which wax
manufacturer is going to try and stop them? That's why the instructions will 
say leave for so many minutes. It doesn't really matter whether or not you 
ladle it on, the result will still only be a microscopic layer.

As specialists in this field, we have developed techniques that can make wax 
go a whole long way further. To me, ONR has been the goto product way
beyond just washing the car. I emphasise that I'm talking about ONR W+S!

Regards,
Steve


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## Bilt-Hamber Lab (Apr 11, 2008)

Bear807 said:


> If this is in a hot climate, findings will be interesting since many products are weaker in such circumstances


This can be true, only wash any waxed vehicle in the cool, as hot panels can bring waxes toward their melt point, if when they are like this surfactants from shampoo grab them they will be removed, so ALWAYS wash when cool for max durability.


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## Trip tdi (Sep 3, 2008)

suspal said:


> Well I look forward to your findings and see how the two products stand up in the Indian climate:thumb:


Good scenario and thinking out of the box :thumb:, I would say in India as it's quite dusty and humid you need a product that has less static charge from the contact from the air bourne contaminants, I am sure Obession Wax Itus will be perfect in Indias climate and tolerances as it leaves a very slick surface, a light rainfall or rinsing under water contact the dirt, dust and particles will be washed away as it's a very slick durable wax; extremely slick with strong fast rapid sheeting behavior.


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## Flakey (May 5, 2013)

Trip tdi said:


> I would say in India as it's quite dusty and humid you need a product that has less static charge from the contact from the air bourne contaminants


The car stays in a covered car park at home as well as work, away from heat & dust. Being a daily driver, it gets some detailing attention everyday. I use the California Car duster every morning, very gently to remove a very fine layer of dust. If there is any dount, ONR or UWW do the job with plush micro fiber towels.



Trip tdi said:


> I am sure Obession Wax Itus will be perfect in Indias climate and tolerances as it leaves a very slick surface, a light rainfall or rinsing under water contact the dirt, dust and particles will be washed away as it's a very slick durable wax; extremely slick with strong fast rapid sheeting behavior.


If that was the case, products like Carpro Reload and Gtechniq C2V3 sheet water better than most waxes. I don't use them anymore as they don't look good to me and they don't bead well. I chose Collinite and Finis as they are very highly rated for durability. There are of course a plethora of waxes & sealants out there, some sheet better, others bead better. There are several products that have been around long enough, are anti static and sheet well. But we are not testing those for now . We are testing two legends here.



Bilt-Hamber Lab said:


> This can be true, only wash any waxed vehicle in the cool, as hot panels can bring waxes toward their melt point, if when they are like this surfactants from shampoo grab them they will be removed, so ALWAYS wash when cool for max durability.


Like I said above, the car stays in the basement away from heat and dust. All of the detailing is done in fully covered area away from sunlight, heat, water or dust.


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## Flakey (May 5, 2013)

*Looks of a LSP*

I forgot to mention that how a wax/sealant looks on the paint is equally or rather more important to me than durability. Going by this test, I am so far not impressed with the looks of either Collinite 476 or BH Finis Wax. Do they get better after a few days or a wash? Do these "Extremely Durable" waxes compromise looks for durability?

Just to compare the looks, I am uploading some pictures where I had used other LSPs recently on the same car and fortunately, the pictures were taken at the same place. To this date, I find Duragloss 105 Sealant to look the best - It has immense gloss yet some paint darkening and depth like a wax.

*Coli 476 on the left & BH Finis on the right*









*Duragloss 105 Sealant* (Notice how it darkened the paint)









*Dodo Juice Blue Velvet Wax* (Is it just me or does it really look better than both Coli & Finis?)









*Carpro Reload* (Typical Hard Candy Gloss that hurts the eye)









I was hoping for both Coli 476 & BH Finis to look better than they do right now.
Even the BH Hydra Wax had way more gloss than Finis. In this picture, the car has one coat of BH Hydra Wax:


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## linuxmanju (Oct 12, 2013)

First of all thanks for bringing up this thread. Loads of information here and looking forward to the outcome.



Flakey said:


> Do these "Extremely Durable" waxes compromise looks for durability?


Hard to tell, unless you have taken the photos same day under same lighting.. etc. But by the looks of it, DG does look a tad bit darker in comparison. Would like to see how do these two waxes fare after the second coat, I have seen waxes adding something extra after the second coat.

Honestly, I liked the first pic ( With waxes ) as much as any other below it.


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## sm81 (May 14, 2011)

You can clearly see that lightning conditions aren't same in every picture. Also I would recommend to wash your car after couple days and look again. (Use some pure shampoo without any wax or gloss enhancer. Autowash/AF Lather/BTBM)
Gloss will increase I can assure you.


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## Flakey (May 5, 2013)

*2nd Coat Applied today*

washed the car and applied second coat of both the waxes to their respective panels - C476S on the left and BH Finis on the right. Is it just me or the "Wet Look" has increased after the second coat? Makes me wonder if there is any merit in a third coat but then I also read somewhere that since waxes only form a physical bond, each subsequent coat removes the previous one. Not sure what to believe 

Temperature Outside - 29C / 84F
Relative Humidity - 58%

*BH Finis Wax on the right*









*C476 on the left*









*Both together*









*Additional shot trying to capture the "Wet Look"*









Do let me know if there is any merit in a third coat of the waxes so that we can start measuring the durability of both thereafter.


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## james_death (Aug 9, 2010)

I think there was a study done that showed 5 layers max but diminishing return.

So each one is that bit less laid down than before, however if its a solvent heavy wax i would imagine that in that case 2 coats max as solvents will be removing some of the previous coating.

I would stick at two personally. but worth a future test half with 2 coats and half with 5...:lol:


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## linuxmanju (Oct 12, 2013)

One more layer of Colli please .


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## JLeerdam (Jan 14, 2014)

Great review! Do you have a clear bra on the nose of the car?


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## Flakey (May 5, 2013)

JLeerdam said:


> Great review! Do you have a clear bra on the nose of the car?


No, it doesn't. Why do you think it does?


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## james_death (Aug 9, 2010)

Flakey said:


> No, it doesn't. Why do you think it does?


The Orange peel possibly made them think a bra.


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## Flakey (May 5, 2013)

james_death said:


> The Orange peel possibly made them think a bra.


Where do you see orange peel? I can't see any.


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## evotuning (Oct 16, 2009)

> I can't see any.


Last picture, on bumper above Fiat badge. Quite bad I must say


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## Flakey (May 5, 2013)

evotuning said:


> Last picture, on bumper above Fiat badge. Quite bad I must say


Aha, I was confused. That's the reflection from the golf course, the giant net they have to keep the golf balks from leaving the premises. Phew!


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## evotuning (Oct 16, 2009)

I'm not talking about what's in the background, or what's reflecting in paint. There is quite bad orange peel on this bumper, nothing uncommon even on new cars.


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## Flakey (May 5, 2013)

evotuning said:


> I'm not talking about what's in the background, or what's reflecting in paint. There is quite bad orange peel on this bumper, nothing uncommon even on new cars.


Nose of the car is all metal, the bumper is plastic. If it's there, I am glad I don't see it. Maybe a later stage of OCD LOL. I was reading up on a Google on how to remove orange peel and it seems wet sanding is the only way. I guess removing clear is not worth trying to fix something I don't see "Yet". :newbie:

Are we talking about this (Highlighted area in the picture below)? Just trying to understand where exactly it is.









If this is what is being interpreted as Orange Peel, it isn't. The Golf Course nets reflect in a manner that it does indeed look like orange peel in this picture. If it's somewhere else, please let me know. I couldn't find any signs of it in any of the other pictures.


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## evotuning (Oct 16, 2009)

Orange peel is seen as sort of distortion in reflection, where reflection is blurry.










Fragment on Your picture is covered with orange peel, at picture above exactly same area is blurred, so it has nothing to do with things that are in background. On average modern car, there is orange peel all over the car, Your car is no exception.

There are maybe 3 or 4 car brands in the world that properly removes orange peel in the factory.

In short, if reflection in You car isn't like on mirror in Your bedroom, then it has orange peel. Period


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## piston_warrior (Jul 25, 2012)

Yes you have orange peel on the part directly below the bonnet. This is normal as my car came straight from the factory with orange peel as do 90% of the cars out there. If you haven't noticed it yet then it's really not a problem.


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## Flakey (May 5, 2013)

*2 Week Update*

Washed the car with CG Hose Free Eco Wash using the 2BM after 2 weeks of having applied one coat of each wax. I did not take any sheeting or beading pictures yet but will do so this weekend to check if the two waxes are showing any differences yet. This wash is not polymer heavy like ONR.

Both waxes look equally warm to me so far.


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