# Icy windscreen - scrape/warm water/deicer kinder to the car?



## dodge77 (Sep 19, 2009)

Morning, 

My preferred method for the last few years has been to pour luke warm water from the top of the front edge of the roof so it rolls down the windscreen and melts the ice - same on side front windows. Last year we had so many cold mornings the water ended up freezing my door locks, windows and doors shut (even with silicone spray on the seals)

Scraper i've always avoided due to scratching the glass?

Deicer - how kind is this to the paintwork? I've found this terrible as once I sit in the car i've then got to sit for 5 minutes while the car gets warm enough to demist the cold from off the inside windscreen. (warm water heats the screen enough to clear the inside mist)

Your thoughts? any techniques i've missed? :driver:


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## beardboy (Feb 12, 2006)

dodge77 said:


> Your thoughts? any techniques i've missed? :driver:


A tap hammer :thumb:

No waiting time involved


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## Sharpy (Mar 25, 2007)

I use one of those srapers with the rubber edge so the glass doesnt get scratched, works perfectly fine for me, dont bother with anything else, water i find is a pain in the ass and a faff


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## robj20 (Jan 20, 2009)

I go out 20 mins before and start the car, put the heater on and when i get out its all clear.


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## Maggi200 (Aug 21, 2009)

When I got my car and read the brief little manual it said under no circumstances let the car warm up idle! So may have to find another method lol, I've not had any issues with frozen windscreens so far with some rain repellant applied, whereas everyone else down my road has so that's a good start!


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## steveo3002 (Jan 30, 2006)

cool water over rain x 'd glass works for me ...just shoots off the glass once you tip it on

no need for hot or barley warm water


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## grant_evans (Mar 2, 2008)

luke warm water for me too


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## Gruffs (Dec 10, 2007)

Cling film on the screen the night before.

Walk out, peel it off and away you go.


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## beany_bot (Oct 6, 2008)

Gruffs said:


> Cling film on the screen the night before.
> 
> Walk out, peel it off and away you go.


I LIKE it:thumb: going to try it tonight


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## steveo3002 (Jan 30, 2006)

Gruffs said:


> Cling film on the screen the night before.
> 
> Walk out, peel it off and away you go.


what about the side windows etc?


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## Maggi200 (Aug 21, 2009)

Trip to Costco tonight for me then, get one of them jumbo rolls of cling film


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## Gruffs (Dec 10, 2007)

steveo3002 said:


> what about the side windows etc?


You can do those too the film clings to the window. Just leave a bit to pull on.

I have to admit though, i don't really remember to do it and a quick scrape with my Tesco Clubcard does the job too.


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## johninspain (Sep 30, 2009)

Sorry but as it does not freeze up over here i wouldnt know ! hahaha :lol:


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## dsr (Oct 24, 2009)

I just use a scraper, not used de-icer for > 20 years. If you're cold, using a scraper helps you to warm up  I normally start the car and leave it on tick-over with the demisters running at max and the heated rear on. Never had a problem with scratched windscreens.

If you have a good quality winter screenwash in and the jets aren't frozen, a quick squirt of that sometimes helps too.

If using warm water, make sure it's not too warm :doublesho - I do know people who've cracked their windscreen - it's not an old wives tale.



D


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## EastUpperGooner (May 31, 2009)

y dnt u chuck boling water ova it, dat wud melt it kwika?









lol


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## TeZ (Oct 28, 2007)

Sod leving the car running for a while, do more harm than good.

Just start up, heaters on, tap water - done.


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## beany_bot (Oct 6, 2008)

TeZ said:


> Sod leving the car running for a while, do more harm than good.
> 
> Just start up, heaters on, tap water - done.


Cold tap water is good yes if the temp is -a couple of degrees, different story all together if it -10 or more, will NOT go well with cold water as it freezes on contact and makes the problem alot worse.


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## Ben_W (Feb 15, 2009)

Heated front screen button seems to work for me........


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## robj20 (Jan 20, 2009)

TeZ said:


> Sod leving the car running for a while, do more harm than good.
> 
> Just start up, heaters on, tap water - done.


Why more harm than good? works perfectly for me did it this morning, also means i get into a nice warm car.


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## TeZ (Oct 28, 2007)

Not great lubrication at idle.


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## beany_bot (Oct 6, 2008)

TeZ said:


> Not great lubrication at idle.


I think on "modern" cars thats more of a myth, maybe back in the day but not on modern cars.


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## TeZ (Oct 28, 2007)

mine is 20 year old haha


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## robj20 (Jan 20, 2009)

It is a myth, less pressure in your pump yes but your engine is barely spinning so doesnt need as much.
In the manual for mine it says to warm to full temp at idle if its been left for a while.
And most garages will leave it idling when doing your oil change.


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## TeZ (Oct 28, 2007)

the cam is barley spinning tho


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## Maggi200 (Aug 21, 2009)

Just asked my dad what he does on this one to see how he compares, he said his washer fluid is warmed when the engine is on so that's not an issue and he has the quick clear windscreen thingy, lucky bugger. This should be the norm rather than a luxury IMO, frozen washer jets are dangerous surely?


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## beany_bot (Oct 6, 2008)

robj20 said:


> And most garages will leave it idling when doing your oil change.


Say what?:doublesho


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## robj20 (Jan 20, 2009)

I mean before they empty it, obviously.


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## MattDuffy88 (Apr 6, 2009)

Ben_W said:


> Heated front screen button seems to work for me........


Same here, nice little feature eh?


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## beany_bot (Oct 6, 2008)

fiestech said:


> Same here, nice little feature eh?


I hope yours breaks.....................


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## Rowan83 (Aug 21, 2007)

On a side note, does de-icer remove glass polish?


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## MattDuffy88 (Apr 6, 2009)

beany_bot said:


> I hope yours breaks.....................


It is a Ford so quite possible :lol:


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## dodge77 (Sep 19, 2009)

I only applied halfords rain repellent yesterday so didn't fancy using de icer this morning as it might remove it LOL

A lot of TDI forums don't reccomend idling a VW diesel either as it isn't good for the engine, best to turn on and drive straight off. 

I think the warm water method seems the easiest, and fastest then. 

Large pitcher under tap, go out, pour on, drive off.

Although i like the cling film idea, its remembering to do it everytime there is a frost report.


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## dooka (Aug 1, 2006)

I just use cold water, as cold water is warm compared to ice..

Hot water can crack your screen..


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## robj20 (Jan 20, 2009)

Pouring water on your screen can be the worst thing to do if its still around 0c and below, you can drive off and it will freeze again, its happend to a lad in work.


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## dsr (Oct 24, 2009)

TeZ said:


> Sod leving the car running for a while, do more harm than good.


Sorry, don't see the reasoning behind this. If leaving the car ticking over was a problem there would be big notices in the handbook about it, you wouldn't be able to do stop/start traffic in town, wait at traffic lights etc.

The main reason that you are encouraged to start and drive is to cut down on emissions.

D


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## s2kpaul (Jul 27, 2006)

cling film is great, if it freezes when i forget to put some on i just heat the car for a bit they get the ice scraper lol cling on the frame windows is a god send in the deep frost.


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## VIPER (May 30, 2007)

Bit OT but doesn't Ford's patent on the heated front screen run out soon, then every other manufacturer can start having them? Or am I just imagining I've read that somewhere?


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## Whitty_1811_d (Jun 5, 2009)

i always use a tesco's club card or similar ! lol


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## 20vKarlos (Aug 8, 2009)

maggi112 said:


> When I got my car and read the brief little manual it said under no circumstances let the car warm up idle!QUOTE]
> 
> I Also Read the Manuals to my last two cars and they have both said the same thing.. Also they say. Dont Rev the vehicle with the handbrake on.
> 
> ...


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## MattDuffy88 (Apr 6, 2009)

Viper said:


> Bit OT but doesn't Ford's patent on the heated front screen run out soon, then every other manufacturer can start having them? Or am I just imagining I've read that somewhere?


Don't know but it would be nice to see it going mainstream with other manufacturers, it's such a useful feature


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## Trist (Jun 23, 2006)

All I do is start car, heaters on, rear and front heated windscreen on and in 2min it's all clear. I might get some luke warm water for the side windows if needed.


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## qwertyuiop (Jul 3, 2009)

In-operative windscreen wash(broken or frozen) is an offence (its checked on your MOT No water= No pass).Boiling water probably would crack the screen.I use warm water(fer the past 22years an I've never cracked the glass) which prevents the inside from freezing when you breath on it.If someone pinches your car while its warming up not only will the insurance not pay out you could become liable for prosecution off the police,its an offence to leave a vehicle unattended with the keys in the ignition.TO ALL THE IDIOTS WHO HAVE JUST POURED BOILING WATER ONTO THEIR (FRESHLY CRACKED) WINDSCREEN, RE-READ THE THREAD,I SAID WARM NOT BOILING,DOH!


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## woodym3 (Aug 30, 2009)

as above. if you pour boiling water on your screen you might just meet gavin from autoglass!!!!!


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## beany_bot (Oct 6, 2008)

If im being honest i just jump straight in my car and sit there on tick over moaning and griping, trying to use the scooshers untill its clear. :thumb:


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## Simmo (Aug 31, 2008)

put it in the garage and drive straight out!


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## bobbyw55 (Mar 23, 2009)

dsr said:


> Sorry, don't see the reasoning behind this. If leaving the car ticking over was a problem there would be big notices in the handbook about it, you wouldn't be able to do stop/start traffic in town, wait at traffic lights etc.
> 
> The main reason that you are encouraged to start and drive is to cut down on emissions.
> 
> D


Well said. Oil lubricates far better when its up to temp and it takes far longer to get up to temp than your coolant. So its got to be safer with your engine on idle slowly heating up under no load, rather than driving away with nearly freezing treacle, i mean oil.

I dont think its the main reason the manufacturers tell you this, i think its the only reason.

Tesco club card  Everyone always has a card in there wallet for this purpose, superb.


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## dodge77 (Sep 19, 2009)

bobbyw55 said:


> Well said. Oil lubricates far better when its up to temp and it takes far longer to get up to temp than your coolant. So its got to be safer with your engine on idle slowly heating up under no load, rather than driving away with nearly freezing treacle, i mean oil.
> 
> I dont think its the main reason the manufacturers tell you this, i think its the only reason.
> 
> Tesco club card  Everyone always has a card in there wallet for this purpose, superb.


I'm pretty sure on my TDI its a very bad idea to idle it. On all the enthusiast turbo diesel forums they all preach not to idle the car and to drive straight off.

Thanks for eveyones input on this thread 

I think i'll stick to the warm tap water method and pour it from the roof edge, i'll have to try and avoid the door handle when I do the side windows as that caused so much grief last year with frozen door handle LOL


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## qwertyuiop (Jul 3, 2009)

Engine wear is caused when the engine is cold,the quickest way to warm it up is to increase the revs, but reving an engine when there is no load ie. in nuetral is also damaging,so you should always drive off as soon as the engine is started NOT using high revs.I doubt that any owners manual says leave your engine ticking over until it reaches operating temperature.


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## dodge77 (Sep 19, 2009)

Have a read of this for any turbo diesel owners...

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=263999


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## Cornish (Jun 20, 2008)

I get in the car, start the engine put it on defrost cycle, which heats the windscreen, rear screen, puts the aircon on max defrost on all glass and most important of all......turns on the seat heaters:thumb:


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## robj20 (Jan 20, 2009)

qwertyuiop said:


> In-operative windscreen wash(broken or frozen) is an offence (its checked on your MOT No water= No pass).Boiling water probably would crack the screen.I use warm water(fer the past 22years an I've never cracked the glass) which prevents the inside from freezing when you breath on it.If someone pinches your car while its warming up not only will the insurance not pay out you could become liable for prosecution off the police,its an offence to leave a vehicle unattended with the keys in the ignition.TO ALL THE IDIOTS WHO HAVE JUST POURED BOILING WATER ONTO THEIR (FRESHLY CRACKED) WINDSCREEN, RE-READ THE THREAD,I SAID WARM NOT BOILING,DOH!


Only in a public area, im talking the back garden. Plus the keys are not in the ignition its running on remote start.


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## -JP- (Jan 27, 2009)

Engine heater and interior heater. Little pricey, but it's worth it. Just set the timer in the evening and jump to warm car next morning.

http://www.defa.com/heating4.php3?aid=395&lang=3&ndid=


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## hulla the hulla (May 20, 2009)

Viper said:


> Bit OT but doesn't Ford's patent on the heated front screen run out soon, then every other manufacturer can start having them? Or am I just imagining I've read that somewhere?


I've heard that too from my boss, didn't say when though


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## Lump (Nov 6, 2008)

jump in stick foot on the accelerator and rev to about 3k for a while to warm every thing up. does the trick


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## beany_bot (Oct 6, 2008)

robj20 said:


> Only in a public area, im talking the back garden. Plus the keys are not in the ignition its running on remote start.


Im afraid that too is now illegal, not for a saftey aspect but for an environmental one.


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## JC01 (Sep 6, 2009)

Hi this is my first post,
some great tips but I have a worse problem(well for me anyways) ,the inside of the car steams up overnight or during the day,so bad that I have had to wait for up to 15 mins for it to partly clear.its a right pain in the butt ! any of you more experienced guys got any ideas????? the car is a clio which has just turned 4 .


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## qwertyuiop (Jul 3, 2009)

JC01 said:


> Hi this is my first post,
> some great tips but I have a worse problem(well for me anyways) ,the inside of the car steams up overnight or during the day,so bad that I have had to wait for up to 15 mins for it to partly clear.its a right pain in the butt ! any of you more experienced guys got any ideas????? the car is a clio which has just turned 4 .


Wot you need to do is dry the glass COMPLETELY (open all doors and tailgate and wipe the windows DRY.... ALL CARS collect MOISTURE which condencies on the glass)you will find that the condensation is massively reduced..


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## dodge77 (Sep 19, 2009)

if you have air con, run it on auto 22 degrees at all times if poss


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## Planet Man (Apr 12, 2008)

Whitty_1811_d said:


> i always use a tesco's club card or similar ! lol


I use an old credit card as it is softer plastic and less likely to damage the screen:thumb:


JC01 said:


> Hi this is my first post,
> some great tips but I have a worse problem(well for me anyways) ,the inside of the car steams up overnight or during the day,so bad that I have had to wait for up to 15 mins for it to partly clear.its a right pain in the butt ! any of you more experienced guys got any ideas????? the car is a clio which has just turned 4 .


Sounds to me you have some water ingress. Check you carpets for damp/wetness:thumb:


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## KKM (Dec 10, 2007)

steveo3002 said:


> cool water over rain x 'd glass works for me ...just shoots off the glass once you tip it on
> 
> no need for hot or barley warm water


^^^^^^^ plus 1

:thumb:


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## ianrobbo1 (Feb 13, 2007)

If it's really cold I stick an old sheet over the windscreen/windows/roof and trap it in the doors to hold it down, I take it off just before setting off,  either that or press Fords wonderful hot windows button!! LOL:lol:


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## SteveOC (May 26, 2007)

I had a bagful of cheap screen covers that I picked up in Aldi and handed out to friends/family in pairs (front and rear) to try out. I haven't gotten around to trying them myself though.

Steve O.


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## robj20 (Jan 20, 2009)

beany_bot said:


> Im afraid that too is now illegal, not for a saftey aspect but for an environmental one.


Can you point me to some info on that i cant find anything.
How would you be able to check timing you cant do that while sat in the car, and any other form of work that requires you to be under the bonnet while the engine is running.


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## qwertyuiop (Jul 3, 2009)

robj20 said:


> Can you point me to some info on that i cant find anything.
> How would you be able to check timing you cant do that while sat in the car, and any other form of work that requires you to be under the bonnet while the engine is running.


Working on a car while the engine is running is'nt classed as leaving it unattended.


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## packard (Jun 8, 2009)

I have used a PRE ICER in the past, that has worked but dubious of leaving chemical on over night on my _own_ car.

Used to get it from Halfords - 
LINKY


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## Daveesaunders (Nov 8, 2009)

hulla the hulla said:


> I've heard that too from my boss, didn't say when though


I've read somewhere the patent lasts 25 years, its really usefull except on my Fiesta where it only works on the passenger side


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## packard (Jun 8, 2009)

My old XR2i on a G (1989) used to have it so it must be running out soon?...


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## SteveOC (May 26, 2007)

I guess the patent is this one - dated May 1987

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4668270.pdf

1. U.S. Patents filed after June 8, 1995 expire 20 years from the date of filing.

2. U.S. Patents filed prior to June 8, 1995 expire 17 years from the date of issue, or 20 years from the first non-provisional patent application in the family - whichever is later.

Number 2 is a mouthful there. When we say "the first non-provisional patent application in the family" what we really mean (most of the time) is just "the application." But, we have to put it that way to be accurate, because Continuations-in-Part muck things up (you'll hear about them later).

Knowing how to calculate the expiration dates of patents is extremely important when conducting Infringement searches, because you only need to worry about patents that have not expired (which are referred to as being "in force").

Steve O.


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## Star2 (Aug 20, 2008)

JC01 said:


> Hi this is my first post,
> some great tips but I have a worse problem(well for me anyways) ,the inside of the car steams up overnight or during the day,so bad that I have had to wait for up to 15 mins for it to partly clear.its a right pain in the butt ! any of you more experienced guys got any ideas????? the car is a clio which has just turned 4 .


You could try putting some cardboard or a newspaper in overnight and then removing. The card or paper should absorb some of the moisture. May take a number of cycles of adding, removing and replacing before you see any appreciable difference.

FWIW, I just cover the windscreen with a panel of thin foam with a plastic coating (obtained from a removal firm). Does the trick really well. Haven't really got on with pouring water on as it just seems to refreeze. Mind you when I forget my trusty marks and spencer ice scraper is superb. Whilst the neighbours spend 5-10 mins getting going I am clear and good to go in about 3 mins.


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## Star2 (Aug 20, 2008)

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?VISuperSize&item=290366953811

Only a link to a pics, not an items. Hope thats ok with the mods. Apologies if not.


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## alan hanson (May 21, 2008)

just use luke warm water and get ready to use the wipers when its goin down and its just water no ice on the screen so it doesnt get a chance to re-freeze


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## Guest (Nov 13, 2009)

Open garage
Pull out hosepipe
Spray car with water
Shut garage
Drive away


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## dodge77 (Sep 19, 2009)

I almost forgot what I used to use one winter, I got a windscreen sized piece of bubble wrap (the 10p large bubble sized stuff - so it kept quite rigid) i'd activate the wipers before i got out the car and turn the ignition off so the wipers stayed at half way point. Then stick the bubble wrap piece under the wipers. :argie:

Not a bit of ice in the morning (side windows some mornings had ice but there never as bad as the windscreen anyhow)


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## JC01 (Sep 6, 2009)

qwertyuiop ,dodge 77 and planet man thanks for your thoughts, water ingress was the cause another clio with a leaky sunroof easy fixed last weekend with a 10 mm ratchet spanner and a decent dollop of silicone.its drying out nicley


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## VIPER (May 30, 2007)

dodge77 said:


> I almost forgot what I used to use one winter, I got a windscreen sized piece of bubble wrap (the 10p large bubble sized stuff - so it kept quite rigid) i'd activate the wipers before i got out the car and turn the ignition off so the wipers stayed at half way point. Then stick the bubble wrap piece under the wipers. :argie:
> 
> Not a bit of ice in the morning (side windows some mornings had ice but there never as bad as the windscreen anyhow)


Interesting idea. But what if some moisture got down behind the bubble wrap and then froze? I'd imagine it would be nightmare to get off wouldn't it, and you have to tear it, leaving you with bits of clear plastic stuck to the windscreen? I'm not picking faults , I'm just posing the question, as I'd love to find a foolproof material for placing on the car screens this winter that works, is reusable each night and that won't blow off.


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## aod (Apr 7, 2009)

I think my Saab has magical winter fairies that defrost everything.

I just press a button and they appear from the gyroscopic cup holder sprinkling the car with cosmic Swedish elk dust that dissolves the effects of winter adding a halo glow of warmth around the car as it glides along…

Beat that heated front windscreens!

…and then I woke up. Got out my de-icer and ice scraper gloves and started the laborious process… minus Swedish fairies…


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## vroomtshh (Nov 23, 2009)

JC01 said:


> qwertyuiop ,dodge 77 and planet man thanks for your thoughts, water ingress was the cause another clio with a leaky sunroof easy fixed last weekend with a 10 mm ratchet spanner and a decent dollop of silicone.its drying out nicley


A cup of talcum powder or silica gel will help draw any remaining moisture out


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## TMM (Aug 30, 2008)

beany_bot said:


> I think on "modern" cars thats more of a myth, maybe back in the day but not on modern cars.


Most "modern" cars' manuals specifically advise not to warm up the car by idling. That said, it probably isn't terribly bad for the car, but it's best to avoid it if you can. It's better just to drive the car immediately (but gently until it comes up to temp) after starting the engine.


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## Ben_ZS (Sep 28, 2008)

robj20 said:


> I go out 20 mins before and start the car, put the heater on and when i get out its all clear.


*Waiting for 'I've just been denied payout by my insurance' thread*


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## snapsnap (Jul 18, 2008)

beany_bot said:


> Im afraid that too is now illegal..


Where or what says its 'illegal'?


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## qwertyuiop (Jul 3, 2009)

JC01 said:


> qwertyuiop ,dodge 77 and planet man thanks for your thoughts, water ingress was the cause another clio with a leaky sunroof easy fixed last weekend with a 10 mm ratchet spanner and a decent dollop of silicone.its drying out nicley


You never get rid of moisture in the car,it builds up over time as the air you breath is damp,as are your clothes and er, your sweat.Thats before you get in the car pissed wet through coz its rainin.As I've said before, dry your (inside) windows properly and your removing all that water from the interior,the problem is 90% cured,it sometimes needs repeating a couple of times depending how much moisture is in the car,then,Bingo!:thumb:


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## gt5500 (Aug 6, 2008)

qwertyuiop said:


> Engine wear is caused when the engine is cold,the quickest way to warm it up is to increase the revs, but reving an engine when there is no load ie. in nuetral is also damaging,so you should always drive off as soon as the engine is started NOT using high revs.I doubt that any owners manual says leave your engine ticking over until it reaches operating temperature.


Yes this is correct, an engine is designed so that everything is at the correct tolerance when up to temperature. What this means is when the engine is cold everything is tight and the oil is also cold so the engine takes a hammering as its tight and poorly lubricated. Running the engine at idle means the oil pressure does not come up fully, the oil takes ages and ages to warm up and also the engine stays tight for much longer. So the best way to warm the engine is to drive it gently but don't let it labour so use some revs but just don't redline it. The same silly argument has raged for years with running in RC car engines, many claimed that you should leave the engine idling for hours on end with the mixture set rich to provide lubrication. Of course what these silly people failed to understand was that the engine was running cold as a result of low revs and rich mixture which meant the engine was in fact getting worn out very quickly. So letting your car idle to warm up is not a good thing really, but if you think it is I will leave you to it..


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## Guest (Dec 11, 2009)

gt5500 said:


> Running the engine at idle means the oil pressure does not come up fully, the oil takes ages and ages to warm up and also the engine stays tight for much longer.


This is not strictly true, as you (we) have no idea how engines are designed nowadays (unless you actually work for a major car company, which case I apologise), and it varies from engine to engine. The testing that manafacturers do on their engines nowadays _probably _has taken into account leaving them idling and there is a very good chance leaving them idling is not going to do any damage. It seems unlikely they will design their engines in a way that so when they are idling, there is insufficient oil pressure/lubrication.

Also, who says that revving the engine slightly at idle is damaging... I am not sure this is very true either. It will warm the car up quicker than driving away steadily as there will be stationary air under the bonnet.

Not that it matters as probably every person on here who is concerned will be selling the car in a few years anyhow, or something else will break before a bit of wear from the engine idling has set in.


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## Auto Detox (Dec 22, 2007)

I use warm water on the front screen of the van in the morning, kills the ice, clears the inside of my screen, never had a problem with it re-freezing. Watch next week I'll do this & be stuck at the side of the road around the corner with a frozen windscreen ! :lol:


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## Guest (Dec 11, 2009)

While I am here I would also like to pull up the people on here last year who claimed that cold water was more effective than warm/hot water at de-icing the windows due to some physics theory - ********. If you pour warm water over the glass it warms the glass up and prevents further freezing, if you pour cold water over it the glass will remain below freezing and the water will simply re-freeze. I am sure there are instances where this theory might come true, but not in the UK climate.


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## qwertyuiop (Jul 3, 2009)

G220 said:


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> 
> Aso, w sayhat reing thslightly atidle ng... I am notvery rue ther. It n drivi away steadl be statioar
> y aider the bont.
> ot that it maters as pr is concrned will beelling the car inthing else ill beak before rom the engine idl._


_

Yeah!Very intrestin, thanks fer that,can I just point out that:

A.Oil pressure DOES rise in relation to the revs.
B.All (combustion (car/bike/lorry type) engines work on the above principle,it doesn't "vary from engine to engine".
C.As you obviously/admittedly know nothing about engines or even work for a "major" car company,How do you know engine design varies? 
D.I dont work for a major (or minor) car company.
E.Why would I need to? Its common knowledge that the er! experts (who possibly work or have worked for "major" car companies)have made their "findings" public,so all I have to do is; 1.Learn to read.
2.Listen to what other people say, then go and find out for myself. 
F.There is a difference between idling at traffic lights,and idiling when cold (the engine,not you)as someone else ALSO (cleverly?) pointed out. So on this point you are 100% correct, your engine (car/bike/lorry) will not blow up next time you stop at traffic lights/T-junctions/cross roads/round-a-bouts/drive-through restaurant (Mcdonalds/Burgerking/Wimpy etc)/toll booths (car park/bridge/road etc)/level crossings (manned or un-manned)etc. 
G.I'm not gonna comment on the remaining 2 paragraphs.
H.Unless you want me too!
I.If I can be bother'd. 
J.Er, thats it!:thumb:_


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## dodge77 (Sep 19, 2009)

This covers idling when cold - very well

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=263999


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## Guest (Dec 11, 2009)

> A.Oil pressure DOES rise in relation to the revs.


For the most part yes, I don't think I said otherwise?


> B.All (combustion (car/bike/lorry type) engines work on the above principle,it doesn't "vary from engine to engine".


No they don't - certain engines will have a RPM point where the splash lubrication is not sufficient enough to reach parts of the engine. This RPM is not the same for all engines. e.g., if the engine in my car was turning at 100RPM, the oil would never reach the top parts of the engine, i.e., non-linear. Then there are some engines which will idle close to this, and obviously will be adaquately lubricated.


> C.As you obviously/admittedly know nothing about engines or even work for a "major" car company,How do you know engine design varies?


Because they do... _all_ engines work differently, 2-stroke vs 4-stroke for one would have a different lubrication system... If you had a magical car which was fitted with an auxillary oil pump, then you cannot just go around saying "idle speed is not sufficient oil pressure". Incidentally this argument also has been applied to the classic "water pump does not turn fast enough at idle resulting in overheating", yet this is completely car dependant for one, and totally immaterial if the vehicle is fitted with an electric waterpump.


> E.Why would I need to? Its common knowledge that the er! experts (who possibly work or have worked for "major" car companies)have made their "findings" public,so all I have to do is; 1.Learn to read.


Let's see some evidence then... Not just from people who call themselves "engineers" and think it means they know.. Do they have access to many engines in a control environment then the equipment to measure engine wear? If they do then I am prepared to read.


> 2.Listen to what other people say, then go and find out for myself.


I have, i've read the discussion a hundred times on a hundred forums, yet i've never seen an explination from someone who actually can prove that their viewpoint is accurate, instead just the usual "I am an engineer", or "My mechanic said..."


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## Guest (Dec 11, 2009)

dodge77 said:


> This covers idling when cold - very well
> 
> http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=263999


Well i've had a quick glance and as previously mentioned... just opinions and assumptions there.

I assume you have watched the program ice road truckers where they just leave the engines idling for months on end?


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## edition (Sep 7, 2008)

Cold one tonight!


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## Ben_W (Feb 15, 2009)

Heated front screen button still working..............


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## ZIGGYNO1 (May 30, 2007)

Ben_W said:


> Heated front screen button still working..............


Yes i do miss the monde front screen


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## s2kpaul (Jul 27, 2006)

The thing that annoyed me recently is the handle freezes and the auto window drop too, so annoying!!!


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## gt5500 (Aug 6, 2008)

G220 said:


> Well i've had a quick glance and as previously mentioned... just opinions and assumptions there.
> 
> I assume you have watched the program ice road truckers where they just leave the engines idling for months on end?


Yes I have seen it many times, as I recall they leave the* already* warm engines idling to stop them getting cold, I also distinctly remember them covering the radiators up so they warm up quicker. And a truck driver may want to correct me here but I am pretty sure that trucks have a fast idle setting to warm them up, certainly whenever I have seen a truck being started up from cold the engine idles fast until the driver goes to pull away and the revs die down. And secondly whilst engine design varies please explain why any engine designer in their right mind would design an engine to be at the optimum tolerances at anything other then running temp?.


G220 said:


> This is not strictly true, as you (we) have no idea how engines are designed nowadays (unless you actually work for a major car company, which case I apologise), and it varies from engine to engine. The testing that manafacturers do on their engines nowadays _probably _has taken into account leaving them idling and there is a very good chance leaving them idling is not going to do any damage. It seems unlikely they will design their engines in a way that so when they are idling, there is insufficient oil pressure/lubrication.


Why do I need to work for a major car company? I can read and I know that several owners manuals state that you should not let the car idle to warm it up,why would they say this if the car is designed to not need it. It seems to me that you do not understand the scenario, it is not idling per se that causes the issue it is the fact that at idle the car takes a very long time to warm up. Wear is at its highest during cold running as the oil is not up to pressure or temp and the components are tight. Once the engine is up to temp idling will not cause anymore damage then running around, although the oil pressure is still lower. If you do not believe that oil pressure is lower at idle please explain how on cars with noisy hydraulic tappets the noise goes away when you the rev the engine hard and increase the oil pressure enough to pump the tappet out?


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## Guest (Dec 14, 2009)

Oil pressure will be lower, but it does not mean that engine wear is neccesarily increased substantially because as oil pressure rises as engine revs increase, so does the stresses on the engine. I would have thought car manafacturers would design the oil pump and engine to idle at a speed which results in sufficient lubrication, even at the expense of increased parasitic lossd. i.e., oil pressure might be at it's greatest at 6350rpm, but the engine wear will be much more than at 700rpm in the majority of engines.

Fast idle should warm the engine up faster than driving off, as the air under the bonnet is stationary. Dependant upon vehicle of course, for example, if the vehicle is fitted with an automatic transmission the heat generated in the torque converter when driving off may warm the engine up faster. My main disagreement was with this statement:



> but reving an engine when there is no load ie. in nuetral is also damaging


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## gt5500 (Aug 6, 2008)

G220 said:


> Oil pressure will be lower, but it does not mean that engine wear is neccesarily increased substantially because as oil pressure rises as engine revs increase, so does the stresses on the engine. I would have thought car manafacturers would design the oil pump and engine to idle at a speed which results in sufficient lubrication, even at the expense of increased parasitic lossd. i.e., oil pressure might be at it's greatest at 6350rpm, but the engine wear will be much more than at 700rpm in the majority of engines.
> 
> Fast idle should warm the engine up faster than driving off, as the air under the bonnet is stationary. Dependant upon vehicle of course, for example, if the vehicle is fitted with an automatic transmission the heat generated in the torque converter when driving off may warm the engine up faster. My main disagreement was with this statement:


Yes but as has been said already the main problem is that most wear occurs when the engine is cold. Letting engine idle without load takes a long time to warm the engine up, more damage then will occur if you drive the car sympathetically to warm it up. I also doubt that fast idle heat the engine up faster, firstly because there is still no load on the engine. Secondly the air is not going to cool the engine that much as the thermostat will be shut and the water will not be circulating. I suppose the exhaust system would heat up quicker whilst stationary.


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## Guest (Dec 14, 2009)

Ambient temperature plays a big part with the engine warming up and also used to control idle speed and mixture, compare warmup time at idle on winter day compared to summer, difference is huge. If you are driving along all the warm air under the bonnet is expelled quickly. The heater matrix, pipes, et cetera all act as radiators even if the thermostat is closed.


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## HermaN (Dec 30, 2008)

For people saying a scraper scratches the glass, that's a new one on me! Been using a plastic scraper for years, and not once damaged the glass. More likely to get damaged by stone chips than an ice scraper.


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## connor. (Dec 13, 2009)

clifford alarm with remote start - works a treat! and mine has a quick rev cold start thing on it anyways so i dont usually drive it until that drops from 2k to 1500/1000rpm anyways. 

havent used de icer or anything in years!


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## qwertyuiop (Jul 3, 2009)

As a lorry driver,truck engines do NOT warm up at all if the engine is ticking over,in fact a hot engine WILL start to run COLD ( the engine temp drops below normal running temp) if the engine is ticking over,even in this country.


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## gt5500 (Aug 6, 2008)

qwertyuiop said:


> As a lorry driver,truck engines do NOT warm up at all if the engine is ticking over,in fact a hot engine WILL start to run COLD ( the engine temp drops below normal running temp) if the engine is ticking over,even in this country.


No you must be wrong other people disagree with us, I am sorry that cannot be correct :lol::lol:


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## gt5500 (Aug 6, 2008)

G220 said:


> Ambient temperature plays a big part with the engine warming up and also used to control idle speed and mixture, compare warmup time at idle on winter day compared to summer, difference is huge. If you are driving along all the warm air under the bonnet is expelled quickly. The heater matrix, pipes, et cetera all act as radiators even if the thermostat is closed.


Please explain to me how a heater matrix will affect warm up time when driving along? since it is sealed up inside the dash it is not affected by air passing under the bonnet. What does affect it is how high you have the blower speed but this will have the same effect when the car is stationary. The heat lost by air passing over the pipes is also going to be negligable, the pipes are generally run close to the engine block and are rarely postioned such that air is going to be rushing over them and cooling them, besides most pipes are quite good insulators. Anyway to be honest it seems you have made your mind up that you are right and it seems that little is going to change that, it makes little difference to me what you believe anyway.


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## remal (Dec 10, 2007)

OK I only scanned the pags but does anyone just get out early like me and warm the car to clean the windows?


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## Guest (Dec 15, 2009)

gt5500 said:


> Please explain to me how a heater matrix will affect warm up time when driving along? since it is sealed up inside the dash it is not affected by air passing under the bonnet.


Right, you know when you drive along, and the fan is not turned on, air still comes through the vents? This is air passing through the heat exchanger, all that lovely warm air entering the vehicle (or being expelled elsewhere if your car is simply shutting off the flaps via servo motors) is coming from the cooling system and expelling heat from the cooling system.

In warm climates, VW fit a secondary radiator in some models which is no bigger than a cabin heat exchanger to aid cooling.


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## Sh00ter (Jun 11, 2006)

from working in glass quite a few years ago....so many that i have forgotten the exact figures but....

glass has a temperature range tolerance before it breaks, now what that means is that if u heat an area of the glass beyond that tolerance - as the other part of glass is cooler - then the stress fractures the glass.

so for instance (like i said i cant remember correct figures) if the temp tolerance is 40 degrees then at freezing you could pour 39 degree water on it and it wouldnt break, at minus 5 the limit would be 34 degree water etc etc

the glass in your windscreen is less than 3mm thick as well (2 sheets less than 3mm thick laminated together) whereas they used to be 6mm thick toughened which had a lot higher temperature tolerance which is why you "could" get away with a kettle on older cars - as long as it wasnt silly minus degrees figures.

also, no matter how hard u try you will NEVER scratch glass with plastic


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