# Gt sport vs gti



## should_do_more (Apr 30, 2008)

I have a mk5 gti itch. Looking at prices, they are very similar to the mk5 gt sport I have, and I don't know why.

Anyone got any ideas? I have a 140bhp but with a milltek exhaust, so it's a little more peppy than standard. Plus mine has almost every extra except climate control. Still not seen one as good.

Am I wasting my time thinking the gti will be a world away? Price would suggest perhaps not.


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## bigmc (Mar 22, 2010)

Remap the derv, you should see 190bhp quite easily.


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## MidlandsCarCare (Feb 18, 2006)

What are you hoping to achieve from the change? It'll certainly be a bit more 'fun' in my opinion.


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## snowz (Nov 14, 2012)

Diesel is the way forward, a stage.1 remap will see you near 190bhp and loads of more torque, making you not far off the GTI

We have a Mk5 Astra CDTDI SRI 150bhp and have a DTUK crdt tuning box fitted giving just over 200bhp.

My mate in his GTI cant touch me if i floor mine, the torque pins you in the seat firmly, even as standard it wasn't much in it

Diesel is defiantly the future


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## andy665 (Nov 1, 2005)

snowz said:


> Diesel is defiantly the future


Until your DPF fails 

There will be a move away from diesel over the next few years. Forthcoming EU regulations on Nox emissions will see a sharp rise in cost of manufacturer of diesel engines and manufacturers are already stating that refinement and reliability is going to suffer


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## Turkleton (Apr 18, 2010)

snowz said:


> Diesel is the way forward, a stage.1 remap will see you near 190bhp and loads of more torque, making you not far off the GTI
> 
> We have a Mk5 Astra CDTDI SRI 150bhp and have a DTUK crdt tuning box fitted giving just over 200bhp.
> 
> ...


But it's a diesel...


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## Guitarjon (Jul 13, 2012)

Petrol engines IMO are for a real petrol head (no pun intended). No matter how much torque and power a diesel has it will always sound like a tractor. I loved the mini sd I borrowed the other week. It was economical and fairly nippy. I never buy one because of the noise and inability to rev the nuts off it. Get the gti...


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## snowz (Nov 14, 2012)

Like other diesel enthusiasts would say " no smoke no poke " 😉😄


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## snowz (Nov 14, 2012)

Turkleton said:


> But it's a diesel...


Yea and its faster and more economical than a GTI 😄


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## Turkleton (Apr 18, 2010)

snowz said:


> Yea and its faster and more economical than a GTI 😄





Turkleton said:


> But it's a diesel...


Now we're just going round in circles


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## bigmc (Mar 22, 2010)

andy665 said:


> Until your DPF fails
> 
> There will be a move away from diesel over the next few years. Forthcoming EU regulations on Nox emissions will see a sharp rise in cost of manufacturer of diesel engines and manufacturers are already stating that refinement and reliability is going to suffer


No DPF on the 140 afaik.


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## snowz (Nov 14, 2012)

Guitarjon said:


> Petrol engines IMO are for a real petrol head (no pun intended). No matter how much torque and power a diesel has it will always sound like a tractor. I loved the mini sd I borrowed the other week. It was economical and fairly nippy. I never buy one because of the noise and inability to rev the nuts off it. Get the gti...


Mine sounds nothing like a tractor, i bet i get more turbo spin up an whistle than most petrol cars.

Ive had all sorts of petrol hot hatch cars n/a and turbo but they don't feel as effortless as a sporty turbo diesel.

Dont get me wrong petrols are more tuneable and sound great with a sporty exhaust but diesels nowadays are far from tractors


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## Turkleton (Apr 18, 2010)

Earlier replies may make me seem anti-diesel, but...

I agree diesels do have a lot of poke and aren't the soot chuckers that they get stereotyped with badly.
My brother went from a 2.5T Focus ST to a BMW 123d, the Focus was uneconomical but had a cracking engine note and lovely performance, the BMW wasn't bad, however, on paper it was good, in real life, it didn't hit the spot for a fun and quick car.
He now has a 135i and despite it being dire on fuel, it's worth it solely because it's an amazing car.

Diesels just don't scratch the itch that a petrol does, and I'd never find myself wanting to go out for a spirited drive in a diesel when I have a nice supercharged petrol that is a joy to drive no matter how far.
I did look at many a diesel and petrol before committing to the Mini, but I want a fun car, and not having to justify that my diesel isn't bad to everyone that laughs at it.

My 2p


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## b9rgo1234 (May 3, 2009)

Diesel is the way forward :thumb:

http://www.darksidedevelopments.co.uk/jetta-mk5-2-0-16v-tdi-bkd/


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## bigmc (Mar 22, 2010)

b9rgo1234 said:


> Diesel is the way forward :thumb:
> 
> http://www.darksidedevelopments.co.uk/jetta-mk5-2-0-16v-tdi-bkd/


I'm not knocking diesel at all, I prefer driving them tbh, they suit a lazy relaxed driving style but still have enough poke to embarrass the local twunt in his corsa sri, but the cost of getting that jetta to 316bhp would see a TFSi at around 500bhp if not more, diesels after a remap/decat/CAI aren't worth messing with.


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## possul (Nov 14, 2008)

Gti and a remap, job done.
Not a huge vag fan but I wouldn't turn my nose up at gti with good spec
Driven plenty of mk5/6 golf gt/gti and always prefer the petrol versions, I hate having uber amounts of torgue and then having to change gear to have the sense of speed lost in an instance.
Gti has great power curve which suits a sporty drive, never need to so many gear changes, has a very good power delivery which isn't over instantly.

Just my opinions of course, I'm a N/A fan!


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## possul (Nov 14, 2008)

b9rgo1234 said:


> Diesel is the way forward :thumb:
> 
> http://www.darksidedevelopments.co.uk/jetta-mk5-2-0-16v-tdi-bkd/


And how much for that kit?


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## SteveTDCi (Feb 8, 2006)

This thing about diesels being as quick as a petrol .... I can say after owning 2 vag 140tdis both remapped and one auto that on a certain piece of road going to work I can hit a speed that is nearly 30 mph faster than either of the diesels could. 50-70 in 6th gear yes a tdi would beat a petrol, however drop the petrol into 3rd and floor it and the diesel wouldn't see it for smoke, the benefit of the petrol is it would do around 90 in 3rd, the diesel .... Won't

I had a tiguan tdi a couple of weeks ago and while they are coming along you can still tell its a diesel. I did have a go on a runway in the latest a6 twin turbo tdi and that was very nice but the s7 I drove before it was even better.

As andy pointed out the day of the diesel has peaked and petrol is going to be king again. Small diesels are now as far as they can go and there are no big improvements to come, petrol has only just started.


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## DMcG (Oct 25, 2012)

GTi's are semi sensible on fuel when not making progress. It's not just about power the GTi will be lighter and handle better but as your already aware it can be difficult to find one with a nice spec if your fussy about what options you want such as highline and mfsw, xenons etc..


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## Trip tdi (Sep 3, 2008)

I'm sure a petrol GTI will rip a diesel mapped tdi in a straight line, I know diesels gain there torque earlier due to there narrow power band, but the petrol has alot of acceleration off the line.

I can not see a tdi keeping up a GTI.


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## snowz (Nov 14, 2012)

Trip tdi said:


> I'm sure a petrol GTI will rip a diesel mapped tdi in a straight line, I know diesels gain there torque earlier due to there narrow power band, but the petrol has alot of acceleration off the line.
> 
> I can not see a tdi keeping up a GTI.


I will tell my mate that next time i pull away from him and hes choking on my diesel smoke 😄😄


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## Trip tdi (Sep 3, 2008)

snowz said:


> I will tell my mate that next time i pull away from him and hes choking on my diesel smoke 😄😄


Have timed your 0 - 60 mph, would be keen to know what kind of acceleration your Astra has :thumb:


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## B17BLG (Jun 26, 2012)

I love it when people say a remap and the desiel is almost as quick (meaning not as quick)

Take the same logic to a petrol car.................

petrol>derv


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## snowz (Nov 14, 2012)

Trip tdi said:


> Have timed your 0 - 60 mph, would be keen to know what kind of acceleration your Astra has :thumb:


No i haven't, I'm not some young chav boy racer and i value my gearbox, these astras are known for blowing boxes doing stuff like that


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## snowz (Nov 14, 2012)

B17BLG said:


> I love it when people say a remap and the desiel is almost as quick (meaning not as quick)
> 
> Take the same logic to a petrol car.................
> 
> petrol>derv


So when it is the case people must be telling lies then?
Ive got nothing to prove im just saying how it is with a mates car and mine.

If you take a look on the Astra owners network you will see there are plenty of other cars on there capable of the same and pushing out more

Diesel isn't the old rattle noise flat performance of years gone


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## SteveTDCi (Feb 8, 2006)

snowz said:


> I will tell my mate that next time i pull away from him and hes choking on my diesel smoke 😄😄


Your mate must have the handbrake on, whilst diesels can be rapid upto 60 after that they tail off, only the big diesels with autos keep going but even then with what are probably the best diesels a BMW 335i would beat the335d.


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## 4d_dc2 (Mar 28, 2008)

I have just gone from a 03 plate civic type r to a remapped 04 accord 2.2 cdti. The accord has approx 180ish Bhp and loads of torque. I can tell you the civic probably was a little bit quicker but that's only down to how light it was. There's not a great deal in it though.


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## should_do_more (Apr 30, 2008)

Mine's petrol not diesel. Allegedly 0/60 on about 8 seconds, top speed 130. I haven't found the same two numbers on performance anywhere so that's an average.

I dunno....a remap would push the hp to about 200ish but no idea how well the dsg would take it.


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## B17BLG (Jun 26, 2012)

snowz said:


> So when it is the case people must be telling lies then?
> Ive got nothing to prove im just saying how it is with a mates car and mine.
> 
> If you take a look on the Astra owners network you will see there are plenty of other cars on there capable of the same and pushing out more
> ...


Yeah so mapped desiel VS mapped petrol only one winner


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## B17BLG (Jun 26, 2012)

4d_dc2 said:


> I have just gone from a 03 plate civic type r to a remapped 04 accord 2.2 cdti. The accord has approx 180ish Bhp and loads of torque. I can tell you the civic probably was a little bit quicker but that's only down to how light it was. There's not a great deal in it though.


thats two different engines though! you firstly have a 2.0 vs a 2.2 and a N/A vs a turbo car


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## alan hanson (May 21, 2008)

snowz said:


> So when it is the case people must be telling lies then?
> Ive got nothing to prove im just saying how it is with a mates car and mine.
> 
> If you take a look on the Astra owners network you will see there are plenty of other cars on there capable of the same and pushing out more
> ...


diesel astras do reach around 200bhp with a box but as above the gear boxes are made from chocolate not to mentioned the other problems but yeh a boxed 150 diesel astra will beat a standard (and theres the bit why should the diesel be modified and then compare it to a standard petrol?) GTI like it or not

O and im not a diesel fan either give me a petrol any day diesel are for munching motor way miles some sound better than others also.


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## B17BLG (Jun 26, 2012)

alan hanson said:


> diesel astras do reach around 200bhp with a box but as above the gear boxes are made from chocolate not to mentioned the other problems but yeh a boxed 150 diesel astra will beat a standard (and theres the bit why should the diesel be modified and then compare it to a standard petrol?) GTI like it or not
> 
> O and im not a diesel fan either give me a petrol any day diesel are for munching motor way miles some sound better than others also.


Well lookat the 888 for example! plenty of poke but still can't out pace a standard VXR. Even on a track there very close with all the handling upgrades!

Map and exhaust on the VXR and you looking 280BHP and 300LB!

And a larger area of the rev range with peak power comapred with a desiel!

I also agree with the M32 gearboxes, like galaxy caramel!! The more torque, the more likely to fail


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## alan hanson (May 21, 2008)

agree 888 are close to the VXR but defo not same level as you say they are tuned and upgraded in most places etc... (nice cars but expensive if you want to replace the brakes lol)

GTI's standard arent as quick as a VXR infact not really that close tbh which is why the boxed/mapped soot chucker would be as quick/quicker imho

m40 gear boxes should have been fitted as standard astras are known to have the faults and as you say add the extra torque and happy right foot reconditioned gear box what £700 notes if thats all that has been buggered if your lucky?


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## xJay1337 (Jul 20, 2012)

A mapped GTI is about the same as a VXR, maybe a tad faster. Thing is the GTI can still handle the power where the Astra does struggle a little bit more. Both are nice cars though.



andy665 said:


> Until your DPF fails
> 
> There will be a move away from diesel over the next few years. Forthcoming EU regulations on Nox emissions will see a sharp rise in cost of manufacturer of diesel engines and manufacturers are already stating that refinement and reliability is going to suffer


No Golf Mk5 TDI 140s (2.0 TDI) came with a DPF.

Regarding the whole petrol vs diesel thing..

A Mk5 GTI will map to 240 quite happily.
If you bolt on a Ko4 turbo or buy an Ed30 a map alone will get you over 300bhp. That's a QUICK car :doublesho

My TDI is at 171bhp and 280lb ft will keep up with a GTI up till 120 at which point we both thought for our licenses we should back off. I raced a 1.8T (I think, had twin exhausts) A4 the other and he had nothing against me!
Depending on how it is mapped will dictate how it drives, whether it runs out of power at a higher speed..

Frankly half the people don't have a clue about diesel tuning let along power graphs and how the car responds. Mine for example makes peak power at about 3800rpm and peak torque at about 2200. From here the torque curve is largely flat until around 3250 where it tails off a little, however the power is building so it balances out.

Some mappers give it what's known as a TDI map which is a BIG burst of torque at around 2000rpm and then nothing after that, so you get a big burst in the mid range and nothing at the top end. So figures will peak quickly and then tail off.

The _good_ tuners will give it a 1.8T style map which delivers most of the torque at around 2000 however it doesn't jump dump the fuel in, the power then builds up to a peak and falls back down towards the end of the rev range. (IE gives a lot of "under the graph" area)

To be fair while at cold most cars sounds "like a diesel" on the move or warm they are perfectly quiet especially a well cared for PD engine, and with a nice exhaust sounds very petrol-like indeed.

My next car will either be an R32 or a GTI, or an -R, but people who simply say diesels aren't for "petrolheads" are stupid and basically racist. :thumb:
Thank you.


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## VW STEVE. (Mar 18, 2012)

Get a GTI i did & one of the best things i did.Had it just over a year & then changed to an ED30 GTI.


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## alan hanson (May 21, 2008)

OTT both turbo petrols there either both tandard or both mapped in which both instances VXR wins


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## B17BLG (Jun 26, 2012)

alan hanson said:


> OTT both turbo petrols there either both tandard or both mapped in which both instances VXR wins


I agree, you go comparing tuned vs standard? whats the point? Iv had a rover 25 with the biggest turbo and FMIC absolutely spank me!!!

If i spent the same money , its safe to say I'd pull on him, unless the tyres came off the rims??


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## Turkleton (Apr 18, 2010)

To conclude,

Get the GTi over your diseasel one :thumb:


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## Daffy (Dec 15, 2005)

I have had the GTi TFSI engine but in the mk2 Leon with a DSG box and it was brisk but I much prefer the engine in my 170 GT Golf. Almost as quick but much more torque which is what you want. 0-60 is only any good for bragging in the pub but is not real world.
The later 140's do have a dpf but earlier ones do not. 
The weight difference is not really that noticeable.
Don't get me wrong the GTi is a great car but it depends what you want from a car and what you are going to do to it. 
The cost of changing plus the higher depreciation of the GTi would make it unadvisable unless you have money to burn. The derv Golf's have better residuals than the petrol.
DPF's are a hit and miss. For every bad one there will be half a dozen or more with no issues you just don't get many people on a forum saying how they have not had a problem. Me personally have not had any issue and my daily drive now is only six miles each way to work but probably do anything from 30 - 200 at the weekends which may keep it clean.
If you really want one and nothing else will do then go and do it just make sure you get a really good test drive first. My suggestion would be to get a decent re-map which should see a healthy 180 and a bootfull of extra torque especially with the Miltek see how you go for 6 months and if your still not satisfied then swap. 
But it is pointless to try and compare the 2 as they have different purposes in life and will never be the same.


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## Teddy (Dec 15, 2007)

I've got a Jetta 2.0 TDi Sport 140 (same trim and spec as a Golf GT TDi). It's a great everyday motorway car but there's no way that engine would encourage me to drive it hard even if it was remapped. Speed in itself isn't interesting. It might be as fast as some 'fast' cars but as I don't go racing them it doesn't matter. 
There's much more to having fun that just speed. Diesel just doesn't give the reward or satisfaction that a decent petrol does. Ever tried heal and toeing on a downchange in a diesel? Not exactly responsive.


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## xJay1337 (Jul 20, 2012)

Heel and toe works fine for me :S 
Tried a different technique? lol. Perhaps because yours is stock you have brake and boost disabled where you can't throttle while braking


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## robertdon777 (Nov 3, 2005)

Good video

The Golf struggles against the 2.0T Astra let alone the 240bhp VXR


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## MidlandsCarCare (Feb 18, 2006)

Get a remapped Edition 30


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## TANNER23 (May 18, 2012)

As above, I think you would be best to go for an edition 30 or Pirelli edition to notice a performance difference in your GT.
I like Gt's but there is just something a bit special about owning a GTi, not the fastest hot hatch by all means but as an all rounder it's one of the best! 
Throw in there the exclusivity of an ED30 or Pirelli and you have a special car!
:thumb:


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