# Car Washes....tax evasion?



## Dan_Knightsval (Nov 10, 2010)

Hi guys,

I don't know about you guys but I trying to weigh up whether its worth reporting some of these foreigh car washes. It's got to the point now I am struggling to make a living from this business now. They have completely damaged the market with rates I and many others can't compete with. I am pretty sure most of them are claiming while working for cash in hand and not declaring it. 

What's your take?

Peace,
Dan.


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## Alan H (Jun 28, 2009)

I'm not casting aspersions (sp) but when you see the gaffer getting out of a brand new Range Rover with a personal plate and then pull a wodge of cash out of his back pocket (the likes I can only dream of) it does make you wonder.....


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## Naddy37 (Oct 27, 2005)

Why get involved?, IMHO, leave them to it.


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## Dan_Knightsval (Nov 10, 2010)

Totally agree, Alan. Speaking of range rover, the gaffer down my local car wash has one lol! Neilos, I thought about that, but like any market when someone comes in and undercuts by a ridiculous amount, then its bad for everyone.


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## alan_mcc (Oct 28, 2008)

Anonymously report them? I know I would.


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## The_Bouncer (Nov 24, 2010)

Quick math on those places

Avg 50 cars a day which many of those do

Basic hose down at £5 each - £250 a day

Seven days a week = £1750

Average 4,3 weeks a month = £7,525 a month

X12 months = £90,300 a year.

As I said rough & dirty numbers - no real need to analyse please - some of these places charging a lot more + tips etc. - could almost double that annual income.

So..... who now wants to be a detailer then ? ? not many making that sort of money

OP Dan, your right - it's making a mockery and I doubt full taxes are being declared - hell many of these places won't even be insured apart from the basic public liability.


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## Alan H (Jun 28, 2009)

neilos said:


> Why get involved?, IMHO, leave them to it.


I wouldn't get involved. And you're quite right to leave them to it. I've got other things to worry about. It was just an observation of something I've seen at the local hand car wash...


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## Hasan1 (Jul 1, 2011)

There is a set up in the car park where I work and as there on our land the people that work for him has to provide him with papers to give to us as its on our land. There charging so little cos of the trun round they can do. It cost him £53.000 to set up :doublesho this is cos of all the drain work needed.


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## amiller (Jan 1, 2009)

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/tax-evasion/hotline.htm


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## gerz1873 (May 15, 2010)

I have a severe dislike of HMRC, thats all


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## Alan H (Jun 28, 2009)

amiller said:


> http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/tax-evasion/hotline.htm


I'm off to fetch a dirty sponge and some fairy liquid......:wave:


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## alan_mcc (Oct 28, 2008)

amiller said:


> http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/tax-evasion/hotline.htm


I didn't do nothing boss, it's only at weekends for pocket money, I swear


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## amiller (Jan 1, 2009)

gerz1873 said:


> I have a severe dislike of HMRC, thats all


Well, if it's tax avoidance/evasion you suspect then you'll struggle to get anyone else to investigate it.


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## woodym3 (Aug 30, 2009)

If you know that they are dodging tax etc, then yes you must report them, its your duty. (no pun intended)


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## adlem (Jul 6, 2008)

I'm led to believe that is why they are getting more stringent over water laws and safe disposal/water collection mats now to give them a reason to get into these places then search through the books for money laundering


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## lofty (Jun 19, 2007)

I was told that most of these types of car washes are just money laundering operations,it would explain why all the owners seem to have a RR.


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## alan_mcc (Oct 28, 2008)

^ Interesting..

just like one of the 'locals' with a kahn design range rover, several skylines and even a corsa runs a take away.. wasn't shy with cash when he paid me to give his cars a clean either.


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## nick.s (Dec 21, 2009)

Several of them around Stoke have been investigated for various things, by HMRC and the UK Border Agency.....there were two televised raids in the program about the UK Borders.

I'd bet my last penny they're all on the take somewhere along the lines. How else can they operate as they do?


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## Derekh929 (Aug 28, 2011)

I read an article about a guy with car wash in London bought new 458 and mclaren must be money on it


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## The_Bouncer (Nov 24, 2010)

But and this is my take is..... people in this country like cheap labour - these places are cheap labour - customers get a 'clean' car happy days. - whatever thoughts of how bad it's run, who the managers are - how the staff are looked after is no concern - they have a clean car for a fiver woop woop.

It's a sorry state of affairs but for every one they close 3 will pop up - no location is safe all the while there is a quick quid to be earnt..

As for people with a valeting business trying to get even £30 customers... no chance, your not cheap labour in most peoples eyes.

sad, sad state of the nation.


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## nick.s (Dec 21, 2009)

Derekh929 said:


> I read an article about a guy with car wash in London bought new 458 and mclaren must be money on it


It can only be the sheer turnover of cars through the gates so to speak. Wham bam thankyou maam, that'll be five of your English Pounds as Bouncer quite rightly put it. Pay bugger all to the staff, declare less than you actually take (lets face it, how can they prove what you take every day?)....voila, easy money.

Dodgy, but quite likely how it is.


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## Avanti (Jan 17, 2006)

nick.s said:


> It can only be the sheer turnover of cars through the gates so to speak. Wham bam thankyou maam, that'll be five of your English Pounds as Bouncer quite rightly put it. Pay bugger all to the staff, declare less than you actually take (lets face it, how can they prove what you take every day?)....voila, easy money.
> 
> Dodgy, but quite likely how it is.


The IR do investigate all small business that maybe suspicious, some have been going for years, so they can't all be dodgy, I would have thought with the recession on that detailing or posh valeting would have grown but I'm no businessman. Dodgy money affairs can go on in all tiers of life, but it's fair to see that £10 for a 500ml bottle of fancy shampoo when £5 for 5 litres of one just as effective and quick turnaround is where some £££s are earned


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## nick.s (Dec 21, 2009)

Avanti said:


> The IR do investigate all small business that maybe suspicious, some have been going for years, so they can't all be dodgy, I would have thought with the recession on that detailing or posh valeting would have grown but I'm no businessman. Dodgy money affairs can go on in all tiers of life, but it's fair to see that £10 for a 500ml bottle of fancy shampoo when £5 for 5 litres of one just as effective and quick turnaround is where some £££s are earned


I don't doubt that they do, in fact, the ones up here seem to change hands almost monthly, and I wouldn't mind betting it's down to the above 

I dare say they are all frugal with their products, and get those that work out cheapest per wash. They simply can't afford over use or waste, especially on their margins.


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## amiller (Jan 1, 2009)

Avanti said:


> but it's fair to see that £10 for a 500ml bottle of fancy shampoo when £5 for 5 litres of one just as effective and quick turnaround is where some £££s are earned


That's not tax evasion, that's daylight robbery! :lol:


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## JakeWhite (Oct 14, 2011)

It is annoying how they are under-cutting alot of 'proper' valeters/detailers but at the end of the day, the world isn't a rosey perfect place and as said, people love cheap labour for a 'clean' car. These places have made their mark now and they're here to stay I think. I don't mind them down here as people are getting more savvy to the ****e they use to clean cars and their god awful technique and are gradually realising 'you get what you pay for', the one thing that boils my blood and I literally bite my tongue about, is when (and I had this the other day) is when a passer by stops and looks at a detail your doing and says 'wow cracking work, how do you get it like that? What stuff do you use, prices etc" when I gave them a brief insight to detailing, they replied with "The difference is though, I can take it down the local 'immigrant car wash' (their words not mine) and they'll do the same job, in 10 mins for £5"...................NO THEY BLOODY WON'T!


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## alan_mcc (Oct 28, 2008)

^ Take a chill pill


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## Alan H (Jun 28, 2009)

JakeWhite said:


> It is annoying how they are under-cutting alot of 'proper' valeters/detailers but at the end of the day, the world isn't a rosey perfect place and as said, people love cheap labour for a 'clean' car. These places have made their mark now and they're here to stay I think. I don't mind them down here as people are getting more savvy to the ****e they use to clean cars and their god awful technique and are gradually realising 'you get what you pay for', the one thing that boils my blood and I literally bite my tongue about, is when (and I had this the other day) is when a passer by stops and looks at a detail your doing and says 'wow cracking work, how do you get it like that? What stuff do you use, prices etc" when I gave them a brief insight to detailing, they replied with "The difference is though, I can take it down the local 'immigrant car wash' (their words not mine) and they'll do the same job, in 10 mins for £5"...................NO THEY BLOODY WON'T!


One or two of my colleagues say near enough exactly the same thing to me. It can be rather annoying....


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## Avanti (Jan 17, 2006)

JakeWhite said:


> It is annoying how they are under-cutting alot of 'proper' valeters/detailers but at the end of the day, the world isn't a rosey perfect place and as said, people love cheap labour for a 'clean' car. These places have made their mark now and they're here to stay I think. I don't mind them down here as people are getting more savvy to the ****e they use to clean cars and their god awful technique and are gradually realising 'you get what you pay for', the one thing that boils my blood and I literally bite my tongue about, is when (and I had this the other day) is when a passer by stops and looks at a detail your doing and says 'wow cracking work, how do you get it like that? What stuff do you use, prices etc" when I gave them a brief insight to detailing, they replied with "The difference is though, I can take it down the local 'immigrant car wash' (their words not mine) *and they'll do the same job, in 10 mins for £5"...................NO THEY BLOODY WON'T!*


What is a fair price then? As even during the current weather £2 could be pricey, since as the car is washed it maybe mucky again within a few miles of driving


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## Beau Technique (Jun 21, 2010)

They can average silly volumes of cars in a day. Most are owned by someone with money from whatever background and usually own a few properties. They offer a property where 8-10 live in the same house to keep rent down and all work alternate days. General earnings for a migrant worker at these washes is around £30 per day. Easy earnings for the owner and a way of living over here for the migrants. Report it all you will but they government and law know of whats going on tbh and if it wasnt for them. Where would the swirls come from to be corrected:speechles


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## JakeWhite (Oct 14, 2011)

Avanti said:


> What is a fair price then? As even during the current weather £2 could be pricey, since as the car is washed it maybe mucky again within a few miles of driving


I wasn't commenting on fair price, more on it annoys me when people say one of these car washes will produce the same results as a full detail in under 20 mins. If they can then I will eat my own head :lol:


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## The_Bouncer (Nov 24, 2010)

JakeWhite said:


> I wasn't commenting on fair price, more on it annoys me when people say one of these car washes will produce the same results as a full detail in under 20 mins. If they can then I will eat my own head :lol:


All you got to say to them is look at the paintwork on all the local taxi's that run around.

Cars paint on all of them is fecked :thumb:


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## R7KY D (Feb 16, 2010)

Immigrant's or whatever you want to call them doing the work 

But an Englishman creaming the profits and paying them feck all , There's one near me , it's always busy and the owner is a proper gangster (English fella) , It's worse than the mini cab office rackets


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## JakeWhite (Oct 14, 2011)

The_Bouncer said:


> All you got to say to them is look at the paintwork on all the local taxi's that run around.
> 
> Cars paint on all of them is fecked :thumb:


To be honest it does seem (in my experience) that people are becoming more wise to it, I've converted alot of my friends and family and customers to getting the job done right. But then again, alot do see their cars as just transport. Also they don't care much for re-sale value and a perfect finish.


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## Exotica (Feb 27, 2006)

Doubt HMRC have the time or resources. Too busy having dinner with Mr Vodafone and forgetting the £7BN they owe!


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## nick.s (Dec 21, 2009)

Exotica said:


> Doubt HMRC have the time or resources. Too busy having dinner with Mr Vodafone and forgetting the £7BN they owe!


And sending me tax rebates


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## Mirror Finish Details (Aug 21, 2008)

A fair few round Manchester seem to have packed up. Must be because they were letting the water run off. The guy I know who runs one uses the old petrol storage tanks for his run off and gets then sucked out. He does charge more though.

Does he pay his taxes I have not a clue but he has a Range Rover as well.


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## Dan_Knightsval (Nov 10, 2010)

The_Bouncer said:


> Quick math on those places
> 
> Avg 50 cars a day which many of those do
> 
> ...


I was told at one car wash that employs Bosnians, they are on £1 an hour lol. I can believe it. And how are these guys surviving on this wage, no doubt we are all paying for them to through benefits. Really winds me up!!!


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## bigmc (Mar 22, 2010)

Mirror Finish Details said:


> A fair few round Manchester seem to have packed up. Must be because they were letting the water run off. The guy I know who runs one uses the old petrol storage tanks for his run off and gets then sucked out. He does charge more though.
> 
> Does he pay his taxes I have not a clue but he has a Range Rover as well.


Expensive business haz waste disposal, you'll be looking circa £100 per ton plus disab hire.


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## kh904 (Dec 18, 2006)

Imo, if you have reasonable evidence to suggest that they are avoiding tax then i say it's your duty to report it. 
But this is just my opinion, i don't think them getting shut down will improve your business much (if at all) as i would assume that the customers are different markets (i don't know your business model)? 

I'm surprised at the figures some people are suggesting these places make! I have no idea how close they are to being accurate, but would that take into account expenses like rent, electricity, water, shampoo etc, plus even though they may charge £5 for a wash, many places i've seen usually have 3/4 people working or each car (for a quicker turn around), so the money charged will have to be split at least 3/4 ways.

A few of these car wash places have closed down too in this tough economic environment around my area!

Anyway they are no different to many restaraunts who don't have a proper till system (just use a cash tin box) so they 'adjust' their revenue and pocket the cash! The HMRC will take a rough estimate on what they believe they are taking and the restaurant has to pay, maybe that's what happens with these car wash places?


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## Jayme_ (Dec 8, 2011)

Admitedly, (please dont kill me) I work at a hand car wash with 2 other lads my age (19) and my boss. We are often busy and i do hate working there, but i cannot live without the money as i like to look after my family and do what i can for them in their times of need. 

As Cueball said, there is a big turn around to be made, as we charge £6 for wash and dry and then there are varied extras. I myself as a beginner detailer do dislike working their as i feel like i am more damaging peoples paintwork rather than enchancing it. 

It would be a tough comment to say these are what cause detailer/valeters to lose business as i do occasionally valet cars (with proper detailing equipment) on the side and still make a reasonable amount of money from it.

You must also take into account though the huge amount of loss that is made, somedays we do around 15 cars and someday 50+, theres a big variation just like detailing. 

I must add i have convinced my boss to start using microfibres to dry, to foam the cars before we wash them and to use mitts opposed to sponges! so a small improvement from your normal car wash. 

I do agree though, whenever i drive anywhere there are always foreign car washes and people working for silly money. If it was me, id quit my job (shame i can't) and then shut all of the hand car washes down, just leave automated car washes and detailers!

We should all unite and make a petition 

J


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## johnnyguitar (Mar 24, 2010)

kh904 said:


> Imo,* if *you have reasonable evidence to suggest that they are avoiding tax


Well said - the word for today is *if*.


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## dcj (Apr 17, 2009)

Waste of time reporting it imo, they might get shut down but theyll just open up somewhere else. Theres that many hcw,s in my area that they just take work off each other. I used to be bothered by them but now I,m past caring,Ive heard people complaining that they take car through and when they get home theres triangles of dirt left on their car but they say "it was only a fiver so i,m not too bothered." 
As BT said they get £25/£30 a day(immigrants anyway) so theres now way theres any tax being paid out of that. I,ve mentioned it on here before but got called a racist for my troubles so just cant be arsed to be bothered by them anymore.


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## mikethefish (Feb 4, 2011)

It's false economy using the local £5 wash as you drive away attracting the dirt!!!!!!!

When we detail a car I really believe that it stays cleaner a little longer as the dirt finds it more difficult to stick.

I have also converted a few people and will continue to do so!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## IanG (Nov 21, 2007)

OP has a valid point but you could say the same thing about any trade where cash is involved. Are they declaring all of their income 

Report it to HMRC if you think something isn't right


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## 62mph (Jul 28, 2010)

Blimey IanG... Another Speedway fan - A rare thing these days


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## Kelly @ KDS (Aug 4, 2008)

The_Bouncer said:


> Quick math on those places
> 
> Avg 50 cars a day which many of those do
> 
> ...


There is a hand car wash , that close to me i can see it from the kds unit ,does it effect me , NO

2 completely different trades and clients really .

But bouncer your quote is well low for moneys .

Another hand cars was walking distance from KDS (3mins) and used to be on the site of the one i can see from my unit , i the past spoken to them about numbers well they actually came to me for advice on products then ended up on numbers .

how about 200-250 cars pewr day at £5 each , they have over 10 full time ALL eastern european's paid cash in hand .

The 2 owners / bosses site in the office (used to be petrol station) watching making sure the staff are working .

Change the above figure and you end up with £451500 per year .

where as the closer hand car wash to me never seems to have any work , location is everything , but still does not detract from the amount of cash being made and IS it all above board ???

Me i would not contact anyone about them and leave them to it , just my style not to moan .

If i thought it was wrong and it bothered me that much i would open my own (english style) hand car wash and beat them at there own game .

different trade but similar , we have a cash and carry on the estate and the HMRC bodies where round due to NON uk staff working in this country for cash in hand , did laugh when a load of men came running from around the back of the units to get away :lol:

In the end it comes around

Kelly

www.kdsdetailing.co.uk


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## A210 AMG (Nov 8, 2008)

Whats to stop you guys opening one up?


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## The Cueball (Feb 8, 2007)

So is everyone going to phone up about all the trade people that take cash, "so you don't pay the VAT" or is this just a rant because the hand wash seem to be in direct competition with your detailing business?!?! :wall::wall::wall::wall:

If a hand wash is stealing customers from a detailer, then I suggest the detailer has a serious problem with his work and or image...

As KDS says above, they are different things for different people...

:thumb:


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## B-mah (Oct 4, 2011)

The_Bouncer said:


> Quick math on those places
> 
> Avg 50 cars a day which many of those do
> 
> ...


That must be a posh one at £5 a pop £2:50 to £3 around our way in my part of Birmingham.


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## robq7653 (Jun 24, 2011)

They get under my skin these guys, always have a tatty looking a building (round by me at least) but i say this as a few local petrol stations were bought by a foreigner and sacked the current staff immigrated his own in and all 4-5 LIVED in the back room thankfully the previous manager caught wind before his store was sold and had it investigated. Could be a similar set up.


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## Stumper (Apr 5, 2009)

This thread is like something from the Daily Mail, "Immigrant car washers stealing our business"

Just because you 'think' they're up to something dodgy doesn't mean they are. What about all the other cash trades like your window cleaners, cabbies, mechanics, builders etc. why not report all of them as well?

If they're affecting your business that much, maybe you need to up your game a bit.


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## justina3 (Jan 11, 2008)

It happens to a lot of businesses I know it happened to car audio some ten years ago with the explosion of the internet all you had was someone setting up an online shop from there living room stock in the garage no overheads no expertise and bang out goes the £500 cd head unit with a £10 mark up no way a high street shop like mine could compete. 

At this point I had two options match them = pointless turnover vanity profit sanity ruled that one out so I moved into other areas and shrunk the car audio business down to mostly fitting of peoples head units labor good profit = win.

Did I run around complaining about every tom dick and harry nope spent my time working out ways to move forward which I found far more constructive.


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## Tazz (Aug 23, 2010)

the general public just dont understand a clean car, to them, if they can pay a fiver for their car to look clean, then so be it, regardless of the true extent of that 'wash', theyre oblivious to it

to most people, the above will look the same as if they went to a detailer and paid £50 for the same job, these places are about money only and have no thoughts of car care, you might be able to close 1 establishment near you who charge £5 per car, but it doesnt mean that the general public will turn to you instead

to add as well, they do an awful job

one near me, i took an a car there which i planned to put up for sale the next day, and they put too much acid on the alloys and took the the lacquer off, morons!


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## justina3 (Jan 11, 2008)

[
one near me, i took an a car there which i planned to put up for sale the next day, and they put too much acid on the alloys and took the the lacquer off, morons![/QUOTE]

just curious what was you expecting ?


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## moosh (May 8, 2011)

graeme_t said:


> This thread is like something from the Daily Mail, "Immigrant car washers stealing our business"
> 
> Just because you 'think' they're up to something dodgy doesn't mean they are. What about all the other cash trades like your window cleaners, cabbies, mechanics, builders etc. why not report all of them as well?
> 
> If they're affecting your business that much, maybe you need to up your game a bit.


Couldnt agree with you more :thumb:


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## Franzpan (Mar 2, 2009)

Its all well and good complaing when people evade tax, get huge bonuses, make dodgy claims for expenses. But would WE do it if we were in their shoes?


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## justina3 (Jan 11, 2008)

Franzpan said:


> Its all well and good complaing when people evade tax, get huge bonuses, make dodgy claims for expenses. But would WE do it if we were in their shoes?


nope i wouldnt


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## The Cueball (Feb 8, 2007)

Franzpan said:


> Its all well and good complaing when people evade tax, get huge bonuses, make dodgy claims for expenses. But would WE do it if we were in their shoes?


Huge Bonus - check

Tax planning - Check

Anything to break the law - not worth it, I have integrity to protect

:thumb:


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## Brazo (Oct 27, 2005)

Dan if they closed tomorrow would all his (or any) customers come to you?

No of course they wouldn't because the market is completly different. 

As for damaging the market, maybe your market but it sounds like his lower end is doing very nicely. ALthough as with many of these I would bet they are more a front for something else rather than not declaring tax payments


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## Tazz (Aug 23, 2010)

justina3 said:


> > one near me, i took an a car there which i planned to put up for sale the next day, and they put too much acid on the alloys and took the the lacquer off, morons!
> 
> 
> just curious what was you expecting ?


simply, i was expecting them to use less


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## Avanti (Jan 17, 2006)

Tazz said:


> the general public just dont understand a clean car, to them, if they can pay a fiver for their car to look clean, then so be it, regardless of the true extent of that 'wash', theyre oblivious to it
> 
> to most people, the above will look the same as if they went to a detailer and paid £50 for the same job, these places are about money only and have no thoughts of car care, you might be able to close 1 establishment near you who charge £5 per car, but it doesnt mean that the general public will turn to you instead
> 
> ...





Tazz said:


> simply,* i was expecting them to* use less


This is what is puzzling, so many slag off these outfits yet so many members here seems to have used them of late, selling a car is no excuse to use them as to wash polish and wax a car does not take long and will brighten up any vehicle in prep for sale, 1st to see will buy :thumb:


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## vRS Carl (Aug 14, 2011)

This has been mentioned in the thread. But in all honesty i agree with the fact that people who use these are a different market to those who use detailers.

A lot of the problem as well is that majority of people don't know/understand what detailing is. I never knew about it till i joined a forum (not this one) about 5 years ago. The first time i had a car detailed was by Simon (Baker 21) 3 years ago. Since then i have avoided car washes and tried to keep my car looking the best it can. I tried explaining it to some of my friends in work and to a person they replied with " i couldn't be arsed with that i'd rather just go to a car wash" But they all agree the end result is fantastic.

You could even get a proper scientific programme done by Dispatches, Panorama etc showing the world of difference between a car wash and a detailer. But the minute you mention that a detail will cost about 40x as much as a car wash (some cases a lot more) then people will instantly be put off.

Detailing i think will remain a preserve of those who are car enthusiasts, who want it to look the best all the time, and those who have got the money to pay for it. You will of course get converts along the way (like me) but the majority won't want the perceived hassle of a car being off the road for a day or more just to be "cleaned".


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## nickfrog (Nov 29, 2010)

Dan_Knightsval said:


> I don't know about you guys but I trying to weigh up whether its worth reporting some of these foreigh car washes.


Let's not forget the key word here : foreign.

It's well known that if you're not British you're likely to be a tax dodger as British people all pay their taxes (like Philip Green or Bernie Ecclestone).

I can see that the OP is disgruntled and blaming foreigners is the default choice, in a Daily Mail kind of way.


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## Chri5 (May 18, 2008)

Its a shame people dont understand how these people do more damage than good.

I mean one dip and wash the whole car, it would be good to market this but, who actually cares now? I do but most just rag there car through a car wash or one of these places ...

Sent from my R800i using Tapatalk


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## cockney123 (Dec 28, 2010)

*Fact about them*

Bumped into a helper/washer the other day and were he works there are 4 of them each gets paid £100 per day most work 7 days a week.The boss only puts himself on the books and they say there is no money about............they get free electric as the've hooked up to the farm out building its amazing how they can get away with it.I am considering dobbing in as i've just been paid and saw the tax i paid..


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## craigeh123 (Dec 26, 2011)

100 pound a day cash means they are earning more than me take 
Home as a mechanic mot tester


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## bigmc (Mar 22, 2010)

Mechanic money is poor though, not many decent mechs left anymore they're mostly fitters.


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## kordun (Sep 4, 2010)

graeme_t said:


> This thread is like something from the Daily Mail, "Immigrant car washers stealing our business"
> 
> Just because you 'think' they're up to something dodgy doesn't mean they are. What about all the other cash trades like your window cleaners, cabbies, mechanics, builders etc. why not report all of them as well?
> 
> If they're affecting your business that much, maybe you need to up your game a bit.


I agree with you
I know a guy who is window cleaner and takes around £300-£400 a day. What do you think how much he put trough his books?

Another guy that i know(friend of friend) owns 3 Fish & Chips shop, best in the area. Each shop take £250-£350k CASH. I can't tell you how much cash goes to his safe in Croatian & Spanish villa 
i get free food:thumb:


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## RedUntilDead (Feb 10, 2009)

gerz1873 said:


> I have a severe dislike of HMRC, thats all


Harry is that you:doublesho

The only problem I have with them is that in my area their set up stands out like a sore thumb and not in keeping with the surroundings. Their sites look like shanti towns. If I did something like this on my properties the council would quickly be on my case.


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## kk1966 (Aug 8, 2007)

I was in the local garage the other day and heard somebody asking 'how much' and after they gave aprice it was 'we only take cash though'...yeah, i bet!!!!

Then theres the one that setup on a main road locally and has turned into a thriving business with taxi contracts etc and is permanently packed out..they then offered a garage up by the M40 20k a year to rent their automated car wash and a 10k bonus in 12 months...yeah, of course they pay tax.....i think you can guess my opinion....:-(


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## kh904 (Dec 18, 2006)

kk1966 said:


> I was in the local garage the other day and heard somebody asking 'how much' and after they gave aprice it was 'we only take cash though'...yeah, i bet!!!!


Once again as some one previously mentioned, they are not the only ones that only accept cash. Window cleaners, some fast food take ways, newsagents, barbers etc etc.

I'm not saying that many of these places are not dodging tax, but sometimes it's not worth or practical to take card payments. 
There are quite a few hoops to jump through to get a card machine terminal, they are not cheap, there's sometimes a monthly subscription cost, & they bank takes a cut of each transaction, where in reality most people would just pay cash anyway!

It all adds up!


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## Nanoman (Jan 17, 2009)

I've been thinking about this today but haven't bothered reading through all the pages of this thread. Here's my take on it (no offence intended to anyone)...

The OP doesn't seem to have any evidence that anyone is doing anything other than running a sucessfull business. 

The OP is having difficulty competing with them. I don't know about the OPs set-up whether he's a mobile/non-mobile valeter or detailer. If he's offering the same service but at a higher cost then that's business I'm afraid. He needs to give up or do something different. If he's a detailer or mobile valeter then he needs to find ways to create and show value to his customers as he is offering a different service. 

I'd advise doing some market research and working out why his prospects do not see value in the service he is offering. 

A sale is a mutual exchange of value. If there's no value in it for the client AND the service provider there is no sale. If there is value then the difficult bit is making sure prospects understand it - if they do they will become customers. If there is no value then quickly create some and then start shouting about it.


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## M.O.S (Dec 26, 2008)

If they really wanted to prove it they could gauge roughly how many cars were done through forensic accounting. It has been done in the past, but the fact of the matter is there are far bigger fish to fry.


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## Avanti (Jan 17, 2006)

M.O.S said:


> If they really wanted to prove it they could gauge roughly how many cars were done through forensic accounting. It has been done in the past, *but the fact of the matter is there are far bigger fish to fry*.


The fact of the matter as nanoman points out, there is no proof, just envious assumptions, how can EVERY outfit not be paying tax? 
As posted above, the typical customer for these splash n dash are never going to bow to 'detailer' prices, re-shaping a business model to compete seems the 'only' way


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## cabman (Oct 20, 2008)

there is starting to be loads of car washes now in exeter 
today a saw a 60 plate 911 waiting for a wash 
i don't think many of them have any insurance 
there's is a car wash near me run by 2 ladys who uses brushs to wash cars with:doublesho:doublesho:doublesho
i hate going pass 

something needs to be done


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## tg1 (May 18, 2011)

to be fair, who would trust a bunch of spongemonkeys with a card machine, i'd pay cash.

if i hadn't seen what they done to a car as i was waiting in traffic outside.

windows, 3/4 panel, sils, wheels and tyres, back up 3/4 panel. 

I was appalled.


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## furby-123 (Dec 3, 2011)

my dad and I run a hand car wash as the past 6 years. We both work 6 days a week and my best mate works with us on saturdays. All of us are carproud people. I cant stand having a dirty car. In our area we are the only car wash to use wash mitts, the 2 bucket method, drying towels, grit guards etc, And most of all safe chemicals. 


Iv seen one of the other car wash washing cars and was shocked, 1 guy dropped a sponge, just picked it up and straight on to the bonnet :doublesho

some guys just dont care about quality of work


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## Tazz (Aug 23, 2010)

i understand that theres a fair few detailers on here which im sure you all have your own prices, all i can say is money must be good to still be in business

foreign valeters must surely make more money with a bigger customer base?

i cant see how being a professional detailer, instead of a valeter can be a business, when half of being a detailer means being anal and taking quite a long time to clean the car, as well as spending loads on appropriate gear, how can you even make a profit from that?

i personally like cleaning my car and spending both weekend days doing it, my mates think im crazy but so what, they then see on a sunday night how clean my car is compared to theres, and now they all want me to clean their cars for them as well for free, well for what ive paid for all my cleaning stuff, they can pay to cover costs, if they dont want to, then its no skin off my nose, i clean my car as a hobby, i have a proper job that pays my bills


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## Avanti (Jan 17, 2006)

furby-123 said:


> my dad and I run a hand car wash as the past 6 years. We both work 6 days a week and my best mate works with us on saturdays. All of us are carproud people. I cant stand having a dirty car. In our area we are the only car wash to use wash mitts, the 2 bucket method, drying towels, grit guards etc, And most of all safe chemicals.
> 
> Iv seen one of the other car wash washing cars and was shocked, 1 guy dropped a sponge, just picked it up and straight on to the bonnet :doublesho
> 
> some guys just dont care about quality of work


And for the record, can you confirm that income taxes are paid?
:thumb:


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## justina3 (Jan 11, 2008)

cabman said:


> there is starting to be loads of car washes now in exeter
> today a saw a 60 plate 911 waiting for a wash
> i don't think many of them have any insurance
> there's is a car wash near me run by 2 ladys who uses brushs to wash cars with:doublesho:doublesho:doublesho
> ...


why does there need to be something done ? whats wrong with the 911 having a wash ?

dont see anything wrong with the above at all


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## Avanti (Jan 17, 2006)

Tazz said:


> i understand that theres a fair few detailers on here which im sure you all have your own prices, all i can say is money must be good to still be in business
> 
> foreign valeters must surely make more money with a bigger customer base?
> 
> ...


Folk do make a profit and I take my hat off to them for managing so, also I suspect the detailers have returning customers for follow up cleans.


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## kh904 (Dec 18, 2006)

justina3 said:


> why does there need to be something done ? whats wrong with the 911 having a wash ?
> 
> dont see anything wrong with the above at all


I have to agree!

We all know on this forum that more than often these car wash outfits are no good for the paint finish, but it's the customers choice at the end of the day.
The only way to stop this from happening is if the customer becomes more aware about the effects. And even then they still may not care (and it's their right)!

Hell, I know McDonald's is cheap fast food that's not good for my health, but I occasionally still go there knowing this info because it's cheap & convenient & provides a service to a particular customer! It's not a Gordan Ramsey restaurant & doesn't claim to be!


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## M.O.S (Dec 26, 2008)

Avanti said:


> The fact of the matter as nanoman points out, there is no proof, just envious assumptions, how can EVERY outfit not be paying tax?
> As posted above, the typical customer for these splash n dash are never going to bow to 'detailer' prices, re-shaping a business model to compete seems the 'only' way


As an accountant, I can tell you that you can work out whether they're taking the mick or not through a variety of methods. I'm not a forensic accountant, but I am aware of them (mainly because they get paid a LOT more than me!), they'll look at how much expenses you're putting through in relation to how many cars are washed etc. Furthermore if they really want to have you they'll sit somewhere watching, reconciling the number of cars washed compared to the number in your books. Its been done in the past, not on a carwash, but on several 'cash in hand' operations.

If the tax man comes, you will be caught. Dishonest practices will get you stung. The main reason this type of operation won't get stung for cash in hand is it'll cost a lot more to do this than it would to simply send immigration round and shut them down that way. The money they'll get from the fine is probably going to be something similar to what their tax bill would have been. Main reason they get away with it though as I say is simply bigger fish to fry.

I'm not saying they all do some jobs without putting them through the books, but I'd say that you'd have to do a lot of looking around to find a cash transaction business that doesn't omit some transactions.


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## gerz1873 (May 15, 2010)

> I have a severe dislike of HMRC, thats all


Well, if it's tax avoidance/evasion you suspect then you'll struggle to get anyone else to investigate it.

Oh well that's cleared that up :/


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## jgy6000 (May 15, 2007)

i bet there are a fair few detailers on here that don't put every job through the books...


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## PootleFlump (Jan 1, 2006)

If people get paid in cash on occassions I would be very surprised if it was declared. I can see how these places run, why pay more than £5 to wash the car, it will only get dirty again and 99.99% of people are happy with a simple wash and couldn't give a flying **** that their car has a few swirls so why spend big dollar paying someone more.


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## Avanti (Jan 17, 2006)

M.O.S said:


> As an accountant, I can tell you that you can work out whether they're taking the mick or not through a variety of methods. I'm not a forensic accountant, but I am aware of them (mainly because they get paid a LOT more than me!), they'll look at how much expenses you're putting through in relation to how many cars are washed etc. Furthermore if they really want to have you they'll sit somewhere watching, reconciling the number of cars washed compared to the number in your books. Its been done in the past, not on a carwash, but on several 'cash in hand' operations.
> 
> If the tax man comes, you will be caught. Dishonest practices will get you stung. The main reason this type of operation won't get stung for cash in hand is it'll cost a lot more to do this than it would to simply send immigration round and shut them down that way. *The money they'll get from the fine is probably going to be something similar to what their tax bill would have been. Main reason they get away with it though as I say is simply bigger fish to fry.*
> 
> *I'm not saying they all do some jobs without putting them through the books, but I'd say that you'd have to do a lot of looking around to find a cash transaction business that doesn't omit some transactions*.


Perhaps you or I or others have misunderstood the thread, the implication is that all of these street washes are run by immigrants and none of them pay tax or other expenses.
Being an accountant is different to working for HMRC, if the outfit owners have an accountant then they are contributing via taxes, which negates the the main accusation of the thread. I cannot believe for 1 minute that there is anybody (other than HRH) too large to evade tax, one gets less time for murder than for tax evasion or bank robbery.

Let's assume then that the doubters are correct and the outfits are not paying any tax, then why should the corner shop owner or any other small business owner have to pay tax? 
Nobody gets away with it, I recall the story of that guy in Shropshire who owed the taxman, the only way he could 'get away' with paying was to kill his family and burn the house down 

Then there are the envious competitors, you run a mobile valeting outfit, how can you get to the customer cover time and overheads for a fiver? Chances are it cannot be done, and the typical customer is going to cry "how much!?" They are concerned with what leaves their wallet not if their car is going be be the next runner up in a concourse contest. So no amount of convincing is going to alert them that the spongers are using ill methods, the typical customer is paying for something they loath doing themself, especially in periods like now when it is cold and damp, then in the summer it is too warm and products dry quickly.

What I am seeing overall is that some assume that if these corner wash outfits didn't exist then they would have more custom, there are many of these car wash outfits around here only one springs to mind as ever being busy, most others you see the guys sitting outside looking sorry for themself (perhaps it is those that pay no tax as there is no income)


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## cts1975 (Feb 22, 2011)

lofty said:


> I was told that most of these types of car washes are just money laundering operations,it would explain why all the owners seem to have a RR.


Yep : Taxi offices, Sunbed/Tanning salons and hand car washes are all top of the HMRC's money laundering lists. All cash businesses on the whole.
But like most criminal enterprises in this country the authorities are always one step behind. 
If i was you i would stay out of it. These places always look busy but in reality the probably just 'tickover'. There are 3 within 1/2 mile of me and the 'workers' live in the portacabin on one of them.


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## lpoolck (Jul 25, 2009)

I hear that Harry Redknapp has just started his own car wash business.


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## wish wash (Aug 25, 2011)

lofty said:


> I was told that most of these types of car washes are just money laundering operations,it would explain why all the owners seem to have a RR.


You are correct. The one's near me are owned by big drug dealers, who also are in charge of all the local door security and the odd few gyms. They also own a local sports car garage full of high end motors.


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## President Swirl (Oct 23, 2011)

Yes, it takes trade off professionals mate. However, it's supply and demand mate, and most people are happy to have a festering prehistoric rag dragged over their paint. They may well not declare all there taxes etc.. and i can understand this pi$$es you off. To use an analogy, you may want a 32oz porterhouse, but gregg's will do. This is the motoring equivalent. The real scammers are running the banks, and have houses in Monaco. Hopefully enough people are still around to realize the extra quality your services bring. Good luck mate, and try not to let it bother you too much. Sorry about the soap box nature of the reply mate, i am totally on your side.


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## Nanoman (Jan 17, 2009)

President Swirl said:


> Yes, it takes trade off professionals mate. However, it's supply and demand mate, and most people are happy to have a festering prehistoric rag dragged over their paint. They may well not declare all there taxes etc.. and i can understand this pi$ you off. To use an analogy, you may want a 32oz porterhouse, but gregg's will do. This is the motoring equivalent. The real scammers are running the banks, and have houses in Monaco. Hopefully enough people are still around to realize the extra quality your services bring. Good luck mate, and try not to let it bother you too much. Sorry about the soap box nature of the reply mate, i am totally on your side.


I get what you're saying but a couple of things stand out...

IMO these roadside car hand washes shouldn't be taking trade from professional valeters/detailers. That's like saying Kia takes trade from BMW.

If a customer can just turn up and get their car washed when it's convenient for £5 then why would they take the time to pre-arrange it and pay more for the same end result? It's the Tyre shine, dash dust, chamois dry, wheel cleaner and wax that they'll pay extra for where they wouldn't like to sit and wait for it to be done so it's more convenient to get it done at home/work.

I'd think of some high margin extras you can start to offer like upgraded wax/sealant, windscreen coatings, etc. You've already done the hard bit so while you're their you need to maximise the return.


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## Dan_Knightsval (Nov 10, 2010)

cabman said:


> there is starting to be loads of car washes now in exeter
> today a saw a 60 plate 911 waiting for a wash
> i don't think many of them have any insurance
> there's is a car wash near me run by 2 ladys who uses brushs to wash cars with:doublesho:doublesho:doublesho
> ...


Yes, I have seen an Aston martin at one of these places to, amongst other high end cars. It just shows that their clientelle isn't just the lower end of the market. Making money from car washing has had it's day. Realistically you won't make it rich and you will struggle to make a living from it. Of course you will always get the odd person who gets lucky and makes a lot, but the work ratio doesn't make it worth it in comparison to a proper skilled trade. Time to move on from this valeting and detailing.


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## Steve Burnett (Apr 21, 2009)

gerz1873 said:


> I have a severe dislike of HMRC, thats all


Anything to do with the avitar?


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## AndyC (Oct 25, 2005)

Maybe - no idea and not overly concerned as I too am not a fan of HMRC and it's nothing to do with immigrants, more the fact that they are incapable of running a tap.

Bottom line is that people are happy to pay someone a few quid to wash their car because they have better things to do with their time. It'll look cleaner than when they drove in and that's what people want - not being charged XX times the price because it'll make their paint last longer or whatever. 

The supermarket and DIY store car wash operations I would imagine are run slightly more legitimately and they're still as cheap as chips. We've seen all sorts of properly posh cars being "washed" and I've yet to see someone waving their arms around in righteous indignation because the wheel nuts weren't all like new afterwards - you pays your money and all that.

There's a real danger in some of the things I've read here and elsewhere in recent months that some people really believe that regular washing is as, if not more, important than servicing and sorry but that's just not true - never has been, never will be.

Car paint is a reasonably scientific process from what I can gather and paint is designed to last for a few years, no? Where have we got the notion that if you don't use a 378 stage wash process using shampoo made from the tears of virgins and wash mitt made from the golden fleece, that your car will somehow stop working or become as worthless as an RBS (or Network Rail) bonus?

Trust me, I do feel for anyone who feels that their business is being affected by anyone cheating the system - it's not nice - but I really think you're fighting a losing battle and would be better off focusing on making what you do better than them. It seems to me that there arte plenty of discerning car owners around who will pay proper money for decent detailing services - I'd say the greater worry (especially in some areas) is the sheer number of detailers springing up everywhere. I can't open my front door now without falling over one


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## Nanoman (Jan 17, 2009)

Dan_Knightsval said:


> Yes, I have seen an Aston martin at one of these places to, amongst other high end cars. It just shows that their clientelle isn't just the lower end of the market. Making money from car washing has had it's day. Realistically you won't make it rich and you will struggle to make a living from it. *Of course you will always get the odd person who gets lucky and makes a lot,* but the work ratio doesn't make it worth it in comparison to a proper skilled trade. Time to move on from this valeting and detailing.


I think that's a bit insulting to some the pros on here who obviously have put an awful lot of effort into making their business successful. There are a few who obviously have a great deal of business acumen and go to great lengths to develop their understanding of succesfull business practice.

I might be wrong but I don't get the impression many of them 'make a lot' in the grand scheme of things. They seem to put in far more hours than most skilled tradesmen I know - as you have found out detailing is a very niche market. It's not as if many (any?) pro detailers are running around in new supercars.

I don't know many business that are successfull due to 'luck'. It's usually down to effort.


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## The_Bouncer (Nov 24, 2010)

Dan_Knightsval said:


> Yes, I have seen an Aston martin at one of these places to, amongst other high end cars. It just shows that their clientelle isn't just the lower end of the market. Making money from car washing has had it's day. Realistically you won't make it rich and you will struggle to make a living from it. Of course you will always get the odd person who gets lucky and makes a lot, but the work ratio doesn't make it worth it in comparison to a proper skilled trade. Time to move on from this valeting and detailing.


Dan, sorry it's not working out but therein lies what problems becoming a 'Detailer' can cause - I'm stating general here and not about anyone specific.

everyone knows how to wash a car - literally - so they come on DW, see some of the studio posts and think ahhh ! Detailer it is for me.

I daren't think of how many people have setup a business offering detailing services but have failed and all that's happened is that it's caused a lot of grief & expense.

When we see some of the cars the pro's turn out it's easy to imagine that we can all do something similar.

I doubt very much if Kelly @ KDS first car was a wetsand on a Lambo

I doubt very much if Dooka's first car was a Mclaren

in fact I'd probably stick my neck out and say it was cleaning & hoovering a dusty mucky old Golf or Sierra somewhere

Take Steve @ Mirror Finish, jeez he has one of these wash/wipe places right next to him but he still finds the business coming in.

I think what all the good pro's have got is simply reputation - that's their biggest advert and determines a lot of what work comes up but I bet by god they have chased and chased for it at some point.

To get reputation takes years of hard slog & constant learning albeit techniques, skills and knowledge, dealing with the crap - out in all weathers sitting their thinking why the 'f' am I doing this but they stuck with it.

See I actually think that detailing is a skilled trade - not for the masses but as I've said before - we can all draw pictures on paper yet only a few select go on to have their work displayed and sold for ££.

We see loads of threads on here where people have set up a business then sit back waiting to beat off the rush of phonecalls - sadly they don't happen.

Every business needs to be fed and to do that takes bloody hard work.

Probably one of the most demoralising business at the moment to start up tbh and I can understand why you feel like this.

Chin up and good luck for the future :thumb:

Jay


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