# Rinseless washing over winter - long term test



## A&J

All righty then...if you followed this thread http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?p=5220541#post5220541 over the last couple of days you know whats about to go down.

I will try to create a long term testing of rinseless washes over the 2016/2017 winter to find out how much damage they can inflict on the car. But its gonna be on my terms and rules. I'm not a idiot...Im not gonna slap a wet sponge on a gritty or muddy surface and say its safe for paint. I know its not and some common sense and caution will be used here. I don't live in a water restricted area, I have the luxury of using water, electricity, a PW with a foam lance, snow foam, APC, and other what you call normal wash stuff at my disposal.

I have been using different rinseless shampoos for the last 2 years and have adopted a routine / a method you might say that suits me. Over this time I have found their limits and know how far I can go with them but Ill still lay in some ground rules at the start just so you wont be dissapointed later on.

OK the rules:
1. We will be observing only one panel. Its gonna be the driver door. I have already winter prepped my car last weekend. I wont do it again. That is why I will do this on one panel. Besides its easier to watch for swirls on a smaller area.

2. I will correct the panel prior and protect it with LSP of my choice. I will try to photograph and video document it the best I can to show there are no swirls (there might be some deeper RIDS left at some places). Just a note...Im not a photographer and dont have a pro camera but I will do the best I can.

3. When I drive I keep my distance from other cars in front so they don't throw road film on my car. My daily trips are usually short and I don't do many miles on the highway. The mileage will be documented from wash to wash (if I don't forget).

4. Ill wash it when I feel like it...It can be after a week, after a month or after a day if I decide to.

5. I normally pre spray the panel with the rinseless solution but its gonna be winter meaning ice and snow and salt so I will use my judgement and asses the car prior washing and react accordingly. This means if I think its too dirty I will use the PW and maybe even snow foam. I will document this as I go. I also normally use the 2bm where I have the wash solution in one bucket and rinse water in the other that is also equipped with a grit guard. For the wash media I use a waffle shaped soft sponge. For anyone asking its similar to the one that Serious performance sells, I just get it elsewhere.

6. I will use different rinseless shampoos over this period of time. I like rinseless washing and I like trying different rinseless shampoos. At the moment I am using Optimum No-rinse, Wolfs chemicals mean green and lately Surf city garage rinse free wash & wax (Jesus fu..k they really gotta find a new name for the last one...its too freeking long). In the near future I just might buy CG rinse free and Surf city professional rinse free (although I think its not much different to the one I have) as they popped up at a dealer in my country.

7. I will dry it with a microfiber drying towel. I will vary between Martin cox waffle, CG miracle dryer and Gyeon silk (the small one).

8. I will use as QD or spray sealant as a drying aid. At the moment I am using OPT QD, OPT opti seal, OPT ONR+OCW mix and Autobrite project32.

9. I will look for swirls with a pocket flashlight I use for correcting paint and try to photograph them or make a video about it at least once a month.

10.If you have any suggestions I am open for a discussion but will not necessarily consider them all.

There you go...10 simple rules.

Let us begin shall we?

First of. Wash the car with ONR




Claying was skipped (I did it last week) so I skipped straight to polishing. I used my DA machine with Optimum hyper polish and orange and white CG hex logic pads. The residue was removed with a ONR soaked microfiber towel and panel wiped with OPT paint prep.





LSP of choice was OPT Gloss coat and after 1h a layer of OPT opti-seal.



Gloss coat curing




There is a deeper scratch under the window I could not remove and some paint blobs around the handle from the previous owner.






And the video showing no swirls or scratches (may not be the best quality, if so I am sorry)





What are my expectations. I think its fair to say I do expect to get a some light swirls over winter and this is normal. We all try to be careful about our cars as much as possible but in the end we all make mistakes here and there and so will I.

Well the prep is done. After polishing I did not notice any swirls except on the lower part where I polished it 2 times but oddly could not remove them. But you really have to look very carefully under an angle to notice them.





OK now its time to get the car dirty so...Ill see you when I see you...at the next wash.


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## chongo

A&J what's the point now, when you have applied this

Optimum Gloss-Coat is a high-tech polymer system that forms an extra layer of clear coat over all external surfaces Formulated by award-winning Dr. David Ghodoussi, Optimum Gloss-Coat is designed to provide resistance to etching caused by harsh detergents, and swirl marks that are often inflicted during the wash process.


Surely you should of left that panel clear from any LSP.
So all that writing and prep has been a waste of time mate, because it's not going to show how rinseless washers cause damage to normal paint that hasn't been coated.


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## sm81

Naah... irrelevant chongo. Coatings aren't so good resist swirls than many thinks.


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## A&J

chongo said:


> A&J what's the point now, when you have applied this
> 
> Surely you should of left that panel clear from any LSP.
> So all that writing and prep has been a waste of time mate, because it's not going to show how rinseless washers cause damage to normal paint that hasn't been coated.


Read rule #2 and #10 mate.

Coatings can provide a bit of hardness and protection from wiping with a dry MF but they are certainly not bullet proof


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## chongo

But it's still not bare paint that is being judged


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## chongo

sm81 said:


> Naah... irrelevant chongo. Coatings aren't so good resist swirls than many thinks.


But it still gives some protection from swirls:wall: so says DR Blaa, Blaa :thumb:


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## A&J

chongo said:


> But it's still not bare paint that is being judged


Chongo you can do the exact same test if you want to without LSP and damage your paint all day long if you want...Im not that stupid.

I can bend a rule a bit on rule #1 if you are willing and tomorrow polish the back door and only seal it with opti-seal if that will shut you up a bit  just say the word.


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## chongo

Chongo you can do the exact same test if you want to without LSP and damage your paint all day long if you want...Im not that stupid.

So you admit it does cause damage, lol A&J I don't think you are getting what I am saying, but you go ahead and conduct your test, but at lease I know that I wouldn't be damaging my paint or anybody's else's using a rinseless wash.


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## A&J

chongo said:


> So you admit it does cause damage


I meant you can do your own test with whatever products you like (doesn't have to be rinseless) on a car without LSP and we will see what happens in spring :wall:

I don't expect to get through without some swirls but its not gonna be more damaged than if I used the traditional method. And so you know...I never said rinseless washes dont inflict damage. That would be stupid. I just believe that they dont do it more than any other washes do.

Its not the product that causes paint damage...its in the user that does it...and we all make mistakes. If the traditional way of washing was soooo good and safe than the studio and showroom thread cars wouldt be as damaged and in need off correction as they do, now would they  I think everyone that has ever washed the car no matter the product and way has came to a certain point where he noticed swirls appearing. And there is no getting around that.


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## chongo

A&J my friend, when you start to rephrase certain sentences and words like you have done, it only shows that you know what I have been saying is right

But if your happy with a ONR, which you obviously are, let's just agree to disagree :thumb:

Oh one more questio. What is the safest, ONR or 2bw:lol:


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## A&J

Onr with the 2bm meaning you have onr in one bucket and rinse water in the other.

Chongo..I dont know what your ego wants to hear but I NEVER said rinseless washes DONT damage paint...and no one else said it either. I does...but so does your beloved shampoos or else you woudnt have to polish your cars every now and then and your paint would be perfect from day 1 to the day you sell it so clearly you are doing something wrong.


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## chongo

A&J said:


> Onr with the 2bm meaning you have onr in one bucket and rinse water in the other.
> 
> Chongo..I dont know what your ego wants to hear but I NEVER said rinseless washes DONT damage paint...and no one else said it either. I does...but so does your beloved shampoos or else you woudnt have to polish your cars every now and then and your paint would be perfect from day 1 to the day you sell it so clearly you are doing something wrong.


:lol::lol::lol: A&J you are digging your own grave mate theses are cars I look after and are used on a daily basis and are NOT my cars :lol: so remember again, stop saying things you haven't got a clue about I really am hitting a sore point with you, so I will say one thing, I could carry on with this but am not that old stubborn person I was. So friend:thumb: let's just leave it like that:wave:

Oh A&J, I do have an ego, but a controlled one


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## A&J

I never gave false claims about rinseless washes...Thats what bohers me about what you say because I get the feeling you think I did. I know their limits and the fact they can damage the paintwork if you use it like an idiot. Same goes for every other way of washing.

Ive always said to use what you like and what you trust in, and I still stand by that :wave:


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## scratcher

Wow, that got messed up.

I'm looking forward to seeing this progress  it'll be interesting to see.


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## jr2007

Looking forward to how this pans out.

Personally applying an LSP makes sense to me as that is how most of us protect our cars - a typical visitor of DW is likely to have some form of protection on their car regardless of their wash method.


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## chongo

jr2007 said:


> Looking forward to how this pans out.
> 
> Personally applying an LSP makes sense to me as that is how most of us protect our cars - a typical visitor of DW is likely to have some form of protection on their car regardless of their wash method.


Not always true


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## toni

I can tell you from now you won't see any swirls with your regimen.
Maybe some very light marring, but that will be it.


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## chongo

toni said:


> I can tell you from now you won't see any swirls with your regimen.
> Maybe some very light marring, but that will be it.


So I take it you mean A&J regimen and light marring is ok:wave:


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## toni

I said "maybe" and the same maybe applies to any wash type, even if you use hundreds of liters of water and the best shampoo.
Don't get too hung up on light marring, it will appear even with the best products and techniques. By light marring I mean those scratches you really really have to look for with a very targeted light.


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## jr2007

chongo said:


> Not always true


I agree, hence why I say typical visitor!


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## chongo

toni said:


> I said "maybe" and the same maybe applies to any wash type, even if you use hundreds of liters of water and the best shampoo.
> Don't get too hung up on light marring, it will appear even with the best products and techniques. By light marring I mean those scratches you really really have to look for with a very targeted light.


Oh them, :wave:


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## A&J

Update - 1st wash

After 14 days and about 300 km. Temparature was 2 deg. C.

Products used were:
Optimum No-rinse - as a pre spray and a wash solution
Serious performance QD
Martin cox waffle dryer

State of the car:



























The wash:


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## A&J

Update - 2nd wash

After 17 days and 571 km. Temperature was 9 deg. C and sunny.

Products used were:
Surf city garage rinse free wash&wax
Serious performance QD
Gyeon silk dryer

To make things more interesting I thought I would give you my product opinion on Surf city rinse free.
Its packed in about 1l bottle with the pop up cap that lets you spill it out which is very useful. The instructions say to use 60ml in 15l of water which is way too much solution. I used 30ml in 7,5l (2 gallons) and for the pre-spray I used another 30ml in about 1,2l of tap water (15-20 should also be fine to save some product). The solution is green and it smells nice and fruity but I can not put my finger on it what the scent is but again its nice.
One thing I have notice using this is that although its not very strong at dissolving dirt it really is very lubricated, and I mean verrrrrrrrrryyyyyyyy lubricated. The sponge I used glided on the surface and water sheeted down on the protected surface leaving behind only droplets to wipe away. It also leaves some sort of short term protection behind (polymer or carnauba I assume) that lasts about a week. The wax part of the product also leaves behind lots of gloss as shown in the pictures below. 
I have also made a waterless mix out of it in 9:1 mix ratio and used it a couple of times and its nice. With a good adjustable sprayer head I can create a fine mist on the surface that traps light dust&dirt so that the soft plush towel can lift it safely away. 
Its a product I can say it works and it works really well and its something I would use again if I wanted a wash&wax product.

State of the car before the wash:



























The wash:















State of the car after the wash:
































































Thank you for watching...till next time :wave:


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## firehorse

Thanks for the video. I'm a newbie to this so it was very interesting to see how someone else does it.

Thanks :thumb:


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## A&J

As you have seen I checked for dirt and did rinse my sponge quite often before I was satisfied with the wash. With the car that dirty you really have to be more careful. I also try to check and clean the sponge if I see its covered it leaves and dirt before I continue. I even switched the rinse water because it was too dirty.

Thanks for watching :thumb:


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## chongo

Nice pics and video A&J, but it made me cringe every time you wiped the panel with the sponge:doublesho still no actual feed back thou, no close up video or photos A&J but just a shiny car from a distance. Still don't understand why you would do this form of washing when you have the chance to do a proper wash and reducing the chance of swirls what drying aid did you use A&J:thumb:


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## A&J

chongo said:


> Nice pics and video A&J,


Wow...is that a compliment chongo  You never gave me a compliment before :doublesho 



chongo said:


> but it made me cringe every time you wiped the panel with the sponge:doublesho still no actual feed back thou, no close up video or photos A&J but just a shiny car from a distance.


Wait for it...
I did a close up video but could not found any swirls except on some lower parts where apparently the flat foam pad could not get to it. Their are barely visible. Also Its only been 2 washes so I thought it was a bit too soon to report and to be honest Im S#it at photographing them and filming them and also my camera is S#it too. But I did my best.

Here you can see the current state





No damage visible...there is some on the back door where I used BH cleanser polish and FK1000p but very minor.

For comparison here is a 50:50 shot I made on my father-in-laws car with AF tripple and white hex pad and a DA. Swirls are more visible so if there were any on my car they should be showing up on this camera. 







chongo said:


> Still don't understand why you would do this form of washing when you have the chance to do a proper wash and reducing the chance of swirls


I enjoy it more.



chongo said:


> what drying aid did you use A&J:thumb:


Its all listed above. It was Serious performance QD (the pink one). Its just in a OPT QD bottle as I dont have any other. 
I bought the concentrate version and now I have a gallon of it ready to use. Not a good drying aid but its super lubricated (perfect for clay lube) and the panel feels very slick afterwards.


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## chongo

I always give you compliments:lol::lol:

A&J you don't have to justify your camera not able to pick up the swirls I believe you mate, I just know by experience that their is no way you could do that wash procedure without inflicting any light swirls was your car paint bare paint or has it got some kind of polish and LSP on


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## A&J

which car are talking about...Have you read the first post???


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## chongo

A&J said:


> which car are talking about...Have you read the first post???


Your car:wall: so does your car have any filler polish on or LSP:thumb:


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## A&J

The door we are looking at I polished with OPT hyper polish, panel wiped with OPT paint prep and protected it with OPT gloss coat. I only did 2 washes with the products listed above so no...no fillers were used on the driver door. 

If you are talking about the rest of the car...I winter prepped it using Britemax blackmax on most of the car and BH cleanser polish (because my wife was asking "why does it take so long" so to speed things up I used a AIO) on 3 panels including the left back door. LSP was FK 1000p if that what you are asking.


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## chongo

Pointless review then:wave:


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## A&J

I said in the beginning we were only observing the driver door...I did my winter prep a week before I did this and I did not have the time to do it again...This car is like a freaking mother ship. Trust me you would not want to polished the entire car twice in 1 week. 

I did polish 1 panel as mentioned and we are only watching that panel as agreed. If you think its pointless than that's your opinion.


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## chongo

That's all it is A&J my opinion:thumb: Anyway Merry Christmas mate:thumb:


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## cargainz

Something popped up on my feed on my phone - A& J's video (you can tell my phone knows I watch detailing vids)


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## ashleyman

This is an interesting concept. Perhaps not for the OP's intended way but it's good to see how the LSP lasts under very basic washing techniques. 

Having watched the YouTube video above that LSP looks to be holding back the swirls quite nicely.


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## A&J

ashleyman said:


> This is an interesting concept. Perhaps not for the OP's intended way but it's good to see how the LSP lasts under very basic washing techniques.
> 
> Having watched the YouTube video above that LSP looks to be holding back the swirls quite nicely.


Thanks but to be fair Ive only done 2 washes so far 

And given the low temps Im not sure when the next wash will be 

But stay tuned :wave:


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## Peteo48

Just as a general comment on No Rinse type products I've watched several videos on them and I'm struggling to identify any time savings over conventional washing techniques and, if you have to use a hose to get some of the crud off before hand I am not seeing huge potential for water savings either.

More generally, and thinking of my own car, there do seem to be stages of dirtiness (stating the obvious) and this leads me to a horses for courses approach. Light soiling combined with, say a hosepipe ban, would bring No Rinse products into their own. 

Otherwise I struggle to see the benefit. 

On AJ's tests - I'll still be interested to see the results after several months.


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## A&J

@Peteo48

Thank you for your comment. These types of products may not be for everyone and every situation but the same can be said for traditional washing and traditional shampoos. Both have their place and Im not dissing any of them. I had the need to use it but at the same time I have the chance to use traditional washing if I NEED it.

I always try to explain (but nobody seems to stubbornly understands it) that ONR and other rinseless products are a car shampoo substitute not a TFR, APC or snow foam substitute. I also understand we may not have the same weather conditions so the cars get dirtier at some places compared to others so in short use what you are comfortable with.

I always asses the situation and respond acordingly meaning if I find the need to hose rinse first to remove leaves, mud, heavy dirt & grime, bird poo...I do it because its the smart thing to do. It just happens to be winter so Im being more carefull (I diddnt do it in the second wash if you noticed). Think of it this way "If you think the car is too dirty to perform a traditional wash without snow foam first then its also too dirty for a rinseless wash". 

But from my experience in 80-90% of the time I dont have to rinse it if Im rinseless washing my car every 10-14 days and there is water saving right here (and TBH I dont even care about water saving) and again after wash where the solution can be wiped dry (no rinse needed). I normally use 2 gallons of water for in my wash bucket and about the same in my rinse bucket.

I benefit from: 
- washing, drying and sealing (if I use Opti-seal) my car in under 1h, 
- I dont get water spots or dry shampoo spots at summer, 
- no drips in hidden places and less chances of rust, 
- Less products needed as I can use the same product as a QD, interior cleaner, leather cleaner, clay lube,
- I can wash my car anywhere (sun, shade, outside, inside garage)
- no need to drag the PW out of the garage and assemble it, no need for excessive water usage, electricity usage.

People look at rinseless products as devils work while in actuality they are very capable, usefull and paint safe products. There isnt a bad product on the market, they all clean...they are just different.


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## chongo

Interesting read A&J


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## A&J

Update - 3rd wash

After 9 days and 210 km. Temperature was 5 deg. C and sunny.

Products used were:
Chemical guys rinse free wash&shine
Autobrite direct project 32
Gyeon silk dryer

Thoughts on CG rinse free wash&shine:
In short nothing special. Its packed in a 16oz. or roughly 500ml bottle with the pop up cap that I like. Instructions say to put 2-3 oz. into 5 gallons of water which again is too much for me. As with any other rinseless shampoo I put 30ml (1oz) into 7,5 (2 gallons) l of water into the wash bucket and 15ml into 1,2 l pump sprayer. The color is blue and it smells of blueberries which is nice but at the same time I think the scent is too powerful.
It cleaned OK, it lubricated OK and the result was OK...but not great adn amazing. It is suppose to have gloss enhancers in it but Im not sure it added anything to the finish. Its a product that will do what its suppose to do but it doesn't bring out that WOW factor in me. When I use it up I wont buy it again. Surf city stuff is much better.










Pics prior wash




































The wash





Swirl finding





Pic after wash









Thanks for watching :wave:


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## lowejackson

A&J, just noticed this thread, nice work.


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## cargainz

A&J, would you say couple of light swirls have appeared during the 3rd week? What is main cause and if you wanted to use rinse-less wash over winter what would you advise to prevent swirls showing up by 3rd week? Use QD as drying agent?


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## A&J

cargainz said:


> A&J, would you say couple of light swirls have appeared during the 3rd week? What is main cause and if you wanted to use rinse-less wash over winter what would you advise to prevent swirls showing up by 3rd week? Use QD as drying agent?


TBH the only swirls that I think have appeared from the wash were those hairline ones under the glass. Its not major so dont freak out over it so fast. I too am interested into how much damage will emerge after winter.

I have taken a look after I have polished but without proper lighting its really hard to tell what Ive missed. Also a flat CG hex logic pad did not reach all places I guess.

Nonetheless that was expected and Im not worried about it.

Whats the reason for the hairline swirls you ask? I think its the drying stage (some grit stuck in the towel or something). A QD will help but than again Ive used that too.

Are you doing rinseless washes too?


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## cargainz

A&J said:


> Are you doing rinseless washes too?


Not doing rinseless washing but I'm interested in how things progress. I was one of those that might have been totally against rinseless/waterless washing before I read a thread like this one.


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## A&J

Well wait til march or april to see the results and youll get to decide if you want to try it or not!


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## A&J

Update - 4th wash

After 6 days and 465 km. Temperature was 4 deg. C and sunny.

Products used were:
OPT no-rinse
OPT opti-seal
Martin cox waffle dryer

Pre wash state




































The wash






Swirl finding





At this stage chongo is probably laughing his pants off  :lol: :wave:

A lot of damage was inflicted in this wash and I may now have a reason to finally throw away the old raggedy Martin Cox towel. I loved it but I guess its gotta go. I have bought the Gyeon waffle dryer to replace it but I am very disappointed with it as it absorbs poorly.

Ill also have to tweek my technique a bit. I remembered I used to use 2 drying towels but I guess I got to comfortable with only using 1. Before I started I dunk the first one in the wash solution and wring it so it was damp (that one I used for my first wipe. It adds more lubrication), and the second one was used to dry the car with QD. Ill do it this way next time.

I may have misjudged this a bit and should have hose rinsed it at least but this is reality for you. The damage is done and I to am curious as to how much damage we will see till spring.

So stay tuned and thanks for watching.


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## chongo

You know what A&J, I admire your honesty mate:thumb:

You have gone out of your way to make these good videos, and am sure with the little tweets you are going to do, then am sure it will be better for your review.

Anyway A&J we've had a laugh :lol: so all I can say is Merry Christmas to you and your family :wave: m


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## firehorse

Hi,


A&J said:


> Ill also have to tweek my technique a bit. I remembered I used to use 2 drying towels but I guess I got to comfortable with only using 1. Before I started I dunk the first one in the wash solution and wring it so it was damp (that one I used for my first wipe. It adds more lubrication), and the second one was used to dry the car with QD. Ill do it this way next time.
> 
> I may have misjudged this a bit and should have hose rinsed it at least but this is reality for you. The damage is done and I to am curious as to how much damage we will see till spring.


Thank you very much for taking the time and effort to put up your videos. :thumb:

I looked back at the first video and you was also using the Martin Cox towel and there weren't any significant swirls from that wash. But I did notice you wrung out the towel half way through. Did you dampen the towel first before drying that time around or was it all water from the car?

Also the Martin Cox towel this time didn't look clean when you waved it in front of the camera  ... was it 'clean' from the washing machine or not?

In terms of dirt, from the video, I wouldn't have said the 4th wash was much dirtier than the 1st wash, but unless you are there, it is hard to judge 

From the outside, it is hard to see any major differences between the first wash and fourth wash using the same drying towel. You would know best. Hopefully you can narrow down better what might have caused the swirls.

Thanks


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## A&J

I may have only sprayed the pre-wash solution on it before I used...the towel I mean in the first video. It sucked up water as I used it. 

And I haven't found the chance to machine wash it ever since so that must have been the cause for today's swirls. In all honesty I think the drying stage was my mistake here today. 

As for washes. The first one was the dirtiest because of the leaves and a bit of sand&mud as I remember. Today wasn't that bad but it was a tad bit more dirty compared to the 3rd wash.

I hope you can still learn something useful from these videos. Keep your equipment clean, rags clean, buckets clean and to be on the safe side do a couple of passes before you decide to dry it.

Thank you for your support :thumb: 

I will continue with this until march or april depending on the weather and we will see how it holds up.


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## firehorse

A&J said:


> And I haven't found the chance to machine wash it ever since so that must have been the cause for today's swirls. In all honesty I think the drying stage was my mistake here today.
> 
> As for washes. The first one was the dirtiest because of the leaves and a bit of sand&mud as I remember. Today wasn't that bad but it was a tad bit more dirty compared to the 3rd wash.
> 
> I hope you can still learn something useful from these videos. Keep your equipment clean, rags clean, buckets clean and to be on the safe side do a couple of passes before you decide to dry it.


Thanks.

Basically the rinseless wash method worked fine. The wash today wasn't any dirtier than the first wash but there were swirls this time. The main difference was the condition of the drying towel ... so you can probably keep your favourite towel after giving it a good clean :thumb:

It just goes to show that the drying procedure is just as important as the cleaning procedure.

And if you haven't got a clean drying towel, its better to wait until you have a clean drying towel before washing the car!

Thank you.


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## A&J

firehorse said:


> Thanks.
> 
> Basically the rinseless wash method worked fine. The wash today wasn't any dirtier than the first wash but there were swirls this time. The main difference was the condition of the drying towel ... so you can probably keep your favourite towel after giving it a good clean :thumb:
> 
> It just goes to show that the drying procedure is just as important as the cleaning procedure.
> 
> And if you haven't got a clean drying towel, its better to wait until you have a clean drying towel before washing the car!
> 
> Thank you.


BINGO :thumb:

You couldn't have said it better.

I share your opinion that the rinseless wash itself isn't such a problem. Nor is the fact I use a sponge.

Ive been wanting to clean my microfibers for some time now but Im always waiting until I have enough of them to fill the machine. And because of that I tend to use them again and again.

I do however, after I wash the car, water it (the drying towel) down in my bath, brush them with a soft brush and wring them. I do this a couple of times (3 times at least) before I dry it. A lot of dirt comes out of it but I guess that is not enough.

Im really glad you stepped out and commented. I see I got about 200 likes from you but this is the first time you actually made a comment. Thank you :thumb:


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## armufti

Apart from a microfiber wash solution what is the best procedure to wash them

Sent from my SM-P900 using Tapatalk


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## neilmcl

armufti said:


> Apart from a microfiber wash solution what is the best procedure to wash them
> 
> Sent from my SM-P900 using Tapatalk


Washing machine 30C-40C, liquid detergent, no fabric conditioner but a cap full of distilled white vinegar instead. Air dry to finish.


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## A&J

neilmcl said:


> Washing machine 30C-40C, liquid detergent, no fabric conditioner but a cap full of distilled white vinegar instead. Air dry to finish.


Thats exactly how I do it :thumb:


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## A&J

Yesterdays culprit










Guess which 1/4 damaged my paint :wall:

Anyways...all washed today and waiting to dry.


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## chongo

Get rid of that towel A&J:devil: seemed it caused a lot of marring and swirls, so how come you didn't use one of your plusher towels :thumb:


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## A&J

chongo said:


> Get rid of that towel A&J:devil: seemed it caused a lot of marring and swirls, so how come you didn't use one of your plusher towels :thumb:


You know that special thing you are saving for that special occasion...:wall:...well that's why :wall:

Dont worry...The Martin cox towel will get used only for my rims or engine bay or other dirty areas from now on.

I learned my lesson.


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## chongo

Maybe use some plush MF towels instead of a drying towel

Let me know if you need any advice next time you clean your car mate. :wave:


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## A&J

chongo said:


> Let me know if you need any advice next time you clean your car mate. :wave:


Well it cant hurt to hear other peeps perspective, tips & tricks. Maybe Ill learn something useful. Fire away chongo :thumb: What advice you got for me?


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## firehorse

neilmcl said:


> Washing machine 30C-40C, liquid detergent, no fabric conditioner but a cap full of distilled white vinegar instead. Air dry to finish.


Hi,

I have to say that isn't clean enough for me. I even put in a full cap of Vanish and it still didn't come out clean enough. I can still see grey patches/or just general grey discolouring after doing only the above method.

I put the towels into a bucket of hot water, add in a cup of Vanish, agitate (or agitate every hour or so when you walk by the bucket) and leave overnight. Next morning, there's a lot of muck left in the bucket and the towels should be a lot cleaner. If the towels are really, really dirty, then rather than leave overnight, I do the whole cycle every hour or so until the water is reasonably clean in the bucket. Then I put them in the washing machine!

YMMV


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## A&J

I have a similar way but instead of Vanish I use APC in the bucket. This was my wash today.










I put the towels into a bucket and filled it with warm water. I Added Citrus APC and left it for a couple of hours.










After that time I agitated the towels and a mitt with a soft brush, rinsed, wet again, agitate again and repeated until the water was clear as it could possibly be.










The bucket water ended up like this.










I put the towels into the machine alongside with Persil liquid detergent and vinegar instead of water softener.










I found a program that suited me. Temp on 30 deg. C, spin on 1200 RPM and extra rinse. Wash time was 40 min but that too was adjustable. I found the extra spin (1200 instead of 800) makes them come out drier.










After the wash I let them air dry.










They are still on the balcony.

I hope its not weird I documented this but Im doing a sort of a beginners "all about microfibers tutorial on another forum".


----------



## firehorse

Hi,

I like the idea of using APC.

If you are doing all that then you should be able to revive your Martin Cox towel and keep using it 

Next time I wouldn't wait for a full load to clean your towels. I don't ... I don't have that many towels yet  But hindsight is 20/20 :wave:

All the best :thumb:


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## nick_mcuk

neilmcl said:


> Washing machine 30C-40C, liquid detergent, no fabric conditioner but a cap full of distilled white vinegar instead. Air dry to finish.


Ditto Fairy Non-Bio works well I don't do the vinegar thing though.

I have washed at 60/90 degrees and the MF cloths and drying towels do come out ok but you can get some shrinkage.

I also tumble dry mine against popular public comment also with no issues (been doing it for years!) just make sure you use a delicates setting. Drying towels and medium to deep pile towels come out lovely soft and fluffy.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## chongo

A&J said:


> Well it cant hurt to hear other peeps perspective, tips & tricks. Maybe Ill learn something useful. Fire away chongo :thumb: What advice you got for me?


First tip- Don't wash your dirty laundry in public 

Next tip will be next year :wave:


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## toni

I always use a fresh drying towel, never reused them from a full wash to the next.
My wash mitt rarely gets a wash, although far from ideal, I've never seen any issues - mind you, this is with Wolf's Mean Green which releases dirt much better than ONR. For ONR I also use a sponge.
Waffle weave drying towels get used only during summer or when the car is very slightly dirty. Otherwise the rise of of marring is much higher. Even though I don't use the plushes or softest towel for drying, waffle weave doesn't seem a good option for rinseless. Middle of the road towels, 300-400gsm, are perfect.

A&J: great job so far, don't give up :thumb:


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## A&J

Not giving up...Im just gonna switch to my old 2 towel drying technique. One wet towel (one of the Gyeon ones) for the initial wipe and dry towel (CG miracle dryer) with QD for final wipe. Thats how I used to do it before.

Toni
You were the one who asked about which sponge I use. I get them from CSF. Here is the link

http://www.spoliraj.si/si/rokavice-...inefactory-black-mountain-goba-za-pranje.html

Slovenia is much closer than UK so shipping should be cheaper for you.


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## cargainz

A&J said:


> Toni
> You were the one who asked about which sponge I use. I get them from CSF. Here is the link
> 
> http://www.spoliraj.si/si/rokavice-...inefactory-black-mountain-goba-za-pranje.html
> 
> Slovenia is much closer than UK so shipping should be cheaper for you.


Tesco in the UK have one like that for £2 but I would rather use a microfibre noodle wash mitt than one of those as they are less forgiving if you trap some dirt particles in them.


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## A&J

cargainz said:


> Tesco in the UK have one like that for £2 but I would rather use a microfibre noodle wash mitt than one of those as they are less forgiving if you trap some dirt particles in them.


I found it quite the opposite. The mitt got dirty and soiled with dirt, it was also hard to clean while the sponge released more and easyer. That is why I use it.

Some sponges work better with rinseless washes.


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## banjomike

I like to use a mitt with a variation of the Gary Dean method when using waterless stuff. The main advantage in the context of this thread would be that the mitt (and polishing microfibres) never get particularly dirty since they get dropped into an empty bucket ready for the washing machine after a single panel rather than ending up looking like they've been used to clean the driveway. After a session of washing, whether waterless or foam/bucket/etc, I always have enough mitts & microfibre to justify a wash with Persil non-bio gel and a cool tumble dry.

Sent from my Tab S2 using Tapatalk


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## Bigpikle

bought a pile of B&Q grout sponges for about £1 each many years ago, and still have several left. They are superb with ONR as the foam cell structure is very open so they catch dirt and any particles get trapped inside the foam away from the surface. I never liked the MF noodle stuff with ONR as they seemed to need all the liquid rinsing through them to flush off any muck.


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## A&J

Update - 5th wash

After 13 days and 515 km. Temperature was 0 deg. C and sunny.










Products used were:
Surf city garage rinse free wash&wax
Serious performance QD
Gyeon silk dryer
CG miracle dryer

Pre wash state



























The wash





Swirl finding





As said in the video I tweeked my technique a bit. 
I soaked the Gyeon towel in the wash solution and using it as my wet for the initial wipe and a plush CG miracle dryer for the final wipe. In between I sprayed the QD before drying. I hope this technique change will result in a safer wash.
Oh and I used warm water today, but that was so my hands diddnt freeze.

As for swirls...nothing new to report. The old ones are still there.

After wash


















Im really liking this shampoo. Great wash & wax.

Stay tuned and thanks for watching.


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## chongo

I see your driving is as bad as your washing mate

Who done the damage:wall:


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## A&J

Bloody car got no parking sensors


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## chongo

Anyway I must watch your video now A&J:thumb: back later :wave:


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## Stephan

@A&J 

What did you like from the shampoo? 

I also want to test this one, i've only got mean green&#55357;&#56841;

Thanks for testing!


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## A&J

Stephan said:


> @A&J
> 
> What did you like from the shampoo?
> 
> I also want to test this one, i've only got mean green��
> 
> Thanks for testing!


Look at post #24

Its very lubricated and cleans great. It leaves behind tons of gloss and some protection that lasts about 1-2 weeks. It also smells nice.
I used 30ml in 7,5 l of water and 15ml in 1l of pre-spray.

So far its starting to become my favorite wash&wax product. 
So far Surf city and ONR are my top 2 rinseless shampoos.

I have Mean green at home. Its a 2 year old bottle. When I first used it it felt very lubricated. Since last winter when it frozen it doesnt feel the same. It still cleans and I still use it. At some point Im gonna use it in this test too.

The problem with it is that I cant get it anymore in my country.


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## Bigpikle

great to see other products being tested and evaluated - the more people realise there is a genuine set of great tools to use in these situations the better!

I'm a dedicated (might say 'blinkered'?) ONR user as I love the syn ergy of the Optimum range with their polishes and wax etc, but knowing there are some great alternatives is good as well.


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## toni

Surf City (albeit the Pro version not the one A&J used) is a nice rinseless wash, although to me it didn't seem to clean as good as Wolf's Mean Green. I've yet to try the Water Saver version.
I would say it's on par with ONR on cleaning power, but dries much easier, one pass with the MF towel and the panel is dry. This I really like about it and I've used it alot this summer.
But for me Wolf's Mean Green is the best for winter washes.


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## A&J

Bigpikle said:


> great to see other products being tested and evaluated - the more people realise there is a genuine set of great tools to use in these situations the better!
> 
> I'm a dedicated (might say 'blinkered'?) ONR user as I love the syn ergy of the Optimum range with their polishes and wax etc, but knowing there are some great alternatives is good as well.


I too am a OPT fan (obviously). Love their wash system, polish system, sealant and coating.

OPT were the ones that introduced a better rinseless wash to the world that worked great and still does.

The competition started playing catch up and considering there are more than 20 other rinseless products on the market so far some of them have to be better by now.

I love rinseless washes in general and love testing new products that I can get my hands on. That is why I have 4 of them at home. 
That being said I have to get my hands on Carpro HCH2O one day.



toni said:


> Surf City (albeit the Pro version not the one A&J used) is a nice rinseless wash, although to me it didn't seem to clean as good as Wolf's Mean Green. I've yet to try the Water Saver version.
> I would say it's on par with ONR on cleaning power, but dries much easier, one pass with the MF towel and the panel is dry. This I really like about it and I've used it alot this summer.
> But for me Wolf's Mean Green is the best for winter washes.


You are right. The cleaning properties of Mean green are outstanding. I also like the fact that it doesn't stain wash mitts like ONR but in the end I actually end up with a cleaner one than when I started.

Ill use and compare Mean green when I do the next wash.


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## DirtyFlirty

I've become addict to rinseless for maintenance washing. At first time I was sceptical, but now I wash the car every week if I have time to do it.

I second Bigpikle, glad to read about the performance of different rinseless products.

Good job A&J. :thumb:


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## A&J

DirtyFlirty said:


> I've become addict to rinseless for maintenance washing. At first time I was sceptical, but now I wash the car every week if I have time to do it.
> 
> I second Bigpikle, glad to read about the performance of different rinseless products.
> 
> Good job A&J. :thumb:


Thanks for the kind words :wave:

Which rinseless do you use? What technique do you use?


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## DirtyFlirty

I use DJ Low on Eau. I love the smell, the cleaning power and the finish. It's the first rinseless product I've ever tried.

At the moment I'm using MFs and 2 buckets, changing the MFs and the rinse water when is needed. I don't do it very fast, so it take me some time, but I quite enjoy it.

Still have to try doing it with a sponge, though.


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## A&J

I never used DJ Low on eau. Its not available here. 

There is a comparison review between ONR and DJ on here somewhere!
DJ looks like a good shampoo :thumb:

My next rinseless on the "to try list" is Carpro Ech2o. Havent bought it yet, but...soon.


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## DirtyFlirty

If you ever buy overseas, include DJ LoE in the wishlist, I'd say you won't be disappointed. 

Looking forward to your next test.


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## A&J

Im waiting for the temps to rise above 0deg C. 

Its a real winter here this year with temps reaching -15 in the morning and -3 during the day and it doesn't seem it will get any warmer soon.


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## chongo

A&J said:


> Im waiting for the temps to rise above 0deg C.
> 
> Its a real winter here this year with temps reaching -15 in the morning and -3 during the day and it doesn't seem it will get any warmer soon.


So A&J will you still do your normal procedure when you get a chance Am sure the vehicle will be very dirty when it comes to it:wave:


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## A&J

chongo said:


> So A&J will you still do your normal procedure when you get a chance Am sure the vehicle will be very dirty when it comes to it:wave:


No...Im planing a pre-wash and PW rinse first. The car is covered in salt.
But Im waiting for a warm day because I dont want to have an ice skate on my driveway.


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## A&J

Just a quick update!

Its been a month since my last wash and I still havent washed the car because its too cold but somehow I had to remove all the stuck on salt so I for the first time in my life I drove the car (and my wife :lol to a Coin op self service carwash.










I sprayed on a mixture of citrus based APC at a about 1:20 mix ratio and waited for about 2-3 min before I PW the car. I only PW rinsed it. I did not use their pre-wash or shampoo option.










Anyways here are some before and afters. Before pics are from yesterday and after pics are from today. I did a bit driving in the meanwhile obviously.














































It was so cold when I was PW the water froze on the car as I was doing it. The roof and the lower parts still hold some evidence of that even after 15h :lol:



















The car is not perfect but at least its not salty as before and Im OK with that for now. I really dont have a clue when Ill be able to hand wash it because of the freezing temps. I just heard today that this January is suppose to be the coldest one in the last 30 years. It ironic because last October was suppose to be the warmest one in I dont know how many years :lol:

:wave:


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## A&J

Update - 6th wash

After 36 days and 911 km. Temperature was around 5 deg. C and cloudy turned to rain and then sunny all within 1h.

Products used were:
Surf city garage rinse free wash&wax
Serious performance QD
Carshinefactory Citrus force APC mixed 1:15
Gyeon silk dryer
CG miracle dryer
OPT opti-seal

Pre wash state




































Before I started I pre-sprayed the panel with a citrus APC mixed somewhere between 1:15 to 1:20. I left it to dwell for a couple of min and PW it off as seen in the video bellow.










I then proceeded to wash the car using Surf city rinse free at 1:256 dilution.

The wash





Swirl finding





I could not see any swirls after the wash even on sun light. Maybe it was a different angle or the angle of the sun but I was struggling to find anything.

The coating looks like it has failed on the lower part of the door. Same goes with FK1000p on the back door. It just seems to be one of those areas on the car that makes LSP fail sooner that later.

I did not film this but I later applied a quick coat of Opti-seal onto the car.

Thanks for watching. There will be more...depending on the weather :wall:


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## chongo

Nice to see your still at it mate, but it must take you ages to clean your car with that method


----------



## ah234

Awesome thread, just wondering what sponge/mitt you were using? Just got some onr wash n wax and thinking about getting a smooth egg sponge for it


----------



## A&J

chongo said:


> Nice to see your still at it mate, but it must take you ages to clean your car with that method


I did 2 cars in 2 1/2 h. Most time consuming was PW prep and APC dwell time...but it needed it.



ah234 said:


> Awesome thread, just wondering what sponge/mitt you were using? Just got some onr wash n wax and thinking about getting a smooth egg sponge for it


Thanks :wave:

The sponge is similar to the one that Serious performance sells, I just get it elsewhere.

If you are talking about smooth egg sponge from Soft99 go for it. Its the softest sponge on the market and should be great for Rinseless washes :thumb:


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## ah234

A&J said:


> I did 2 cars in 2 1/2 h. Most time consuming was PW prep and APC dwell time...but it needed it.
> 
> Thanks :wave:
> 
> The sponge is similar to the one that Serious performance sells, I just get it elsewhere.
> 
> If you are talking about smooth egg sponge from Soft99 go for it. Its the softest sponge on the market and should be great for Rinseless washes :thumb:


The soft99 ones  happy days will get some ordered thank you


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## A&J

Update - 7th wash

After 14 days and 643 km. Temperature was around 10 deg. C and sunny.

Products used were:
Wolfs chemicals Mean green
Serious performance QD
OPT opti-seal 
Gyeon silk dryer
CG miracle dryer

Pre wash state




































Today I used Wolfs chemicals wipe and wash or Mean green with the exception of Surf city garage rinse free I used as a pre spray. Mean green is a product I bought 50% off a while back and have almost used it all up. I cant get it anymore unless I ship it over board which due to shipping prices isnt and option for me. I rather buy the stuff I can get locally.










I have over time also pour it into another bottle (ex OPT W&W) with a pop up cap that offers more accurate pour and not the original oil like bottle with the cap of the size of a freeking gallon sized oil bottle.

The product is as the name suggests green in color with a minty scent. Its suppose to be a "pure" shampoo which is weird for a rinseless shampoo. Its suppose to not leave any polymers behind and is not suppose to affect LSP in any way. And somehow thats all true.

Dilution ratios are suppose to be 1:500 which for a rinseless wash is very high meaning the product is very strong. And in my experience it is. But after talking to Wolfs chemicals they suggest a 1:256 mix where water is hard (which in my case it is).

Nonetheless I use a dilution ration of 1:256 for all my washing. I always use 2 gallons (7,5l) of water and 1 ounce (30ml) of product. One interesting thing that this product does is that it foams when you mix it. Foam bubbles doesn't last long though.










The cleaning power of this shampoo is strong with good lubricity. Given the fact it doesn't leave anything behind a QD is needed for the drying stage.

Anyhow...onto the washing part of today's program
The wash





Swirl finding





End result pics




































Conclusion
Its weird as Ive mentioned in the "swirl finding" video. Yes there are swirls and I dont know if any new ones were inflicted or not but they are very light and you really have to look hard to see them under a certain angle.

But the weird thing is is that they are only present on this panel we are testing...not on the back door, not on the hood, not on the other side of the car...NO...just the driver side door. As if the coating is somehow responsible for this which makes it again very strange.

As mentioned not a lot of effort will be needed to remove them. Even a glaze would do the job.

Thanks for watching

Until next time:wave:

A&J


----------



## firehorse

I've checked back and this is the first time you have used Mean Green, also you said it froze and it doesn't feel the same since.

Have you got a different coating on this door that is different from the rest of the car?


----------



## A&J

firehorse said:


> I've checked back and this is the first time you have used Mean Green, also you said it froze and it doesn't feel the same since.
> 
> Have you got a different coating on this door that is different from the rest of the car?


The rest of the car was polished with Britemax Blackmax and protected with FK1000p.

After a few days (from the last video) I have thoroughly checked the car on the sun and the same light swirls are also on the back door (and the other side) so its not the coatings fault. I never really put much attention before at checking the rest of the car so I kinda thought it was fine and damage was appering only on the test section, but after close inspection I saw this was not the case.

IMO the drying step is causing it and not the wash part.

As for Mean green...I remember it being more lubricated but it still does the job.


----------



## Stephan

Finally tried SCG Water Saver !!

Wooooww, nice gloss after a rub with a Edgeless Cloth. 
And how slick can they make a RW:thumb:? Like washing with a quick detailer - very surprised.

I used the GD method with 6 mitts en 2 drying clothes, 1 cloth for the final buffing. It was raining whan i was washing under my carport but it works like a charm !! 

Really a competitor for the Mean Green


----------



## A&J

Stephan said:


> Finally tried SCG Water Saver !!
> 
> Wooooww, nice gloss after a rub with a Edgeless Cloth.
> And how slick can they make a RW:thumb:? Like washing with a quick detailer - very surprised.
> 
> I used the GD method with 6 mitts en 2 drying clothes, 1 cloth for the final buffing. It was raining whan i was washing under my carport but it works like a charm !!
> 
> Really a competitor for the Mean Green


Told you so! Its surprisingly good :thumb:

Like you said...ton of lube during the wash and a ton of gloss after wash!

If you mix it 1:9 you can also use it as a waterless wash!


----------



## Stephan

@A&J,

yeah, the first time i used it my mix was to weak. Now i've added 100ml to 5l water. Really,really slippery.

Next on the list is the Carpro Ech2o. We will see...


Only downside is that you'll beginning te dislike normal washing :-D


----------



## A&J

Stephan said:


> @A&J,
> 
> yeah, the first time i used it my mix was to weak. Now i've added 100ml to 5l water. Really,really slippery.
> 
> Next on the list is the Carpro Ech2o. We will see...
> 
> Only downside is that you'll beginning te dislike normal washing :-D


Stephan...a 100ml to 5l sounds like a lot. I bet half of that would be sufficient! But given the fact you wash with the garry dean method you saved some product for next time right?

I use 30ml per 7,5 l and think its enough.


----------



## Stephan

Yeah, The reason was that the first time i used to little and i didn't like the SCG.
I saw on the bottle that you need 80-120ml approx. with 5 - 8l water...

It was also my first GD, but i will try to wash with your amount ans see what happens


----------



## A&J

Update - 8th wash

After 36 days and 850km. Temperature was around 17 deg. C and sunny.

Products used were:
Carpro Ech2o
Gyeon silk dryer
CG miracle dryer

Pre wash state




































Its been more than a month since my last wash and the car still isnt dirty...its dusty but nothing dramatic.

Today I used Carpro Ech2o which was new to me. I bought the 500ml bottle for 13,95 EUR from a detailing shop in my country. 









First look at it and you notice its not watery like ONR but much thicker ...something like a polish which in my eyes makes it very concentrated.
The product is green in color and minty smell which is probably from peppermint oils added (check the warning description). Its not a "pure shampoo" as it is suppose to leave some SiO2 sealant protection behind. Dilution ratios for rinseless washing are poor which makes this the most expensive wash Ive done BUT since its meant to be used more as a waterless wash it just could be the cheapest one around with dilution ratios reaching from 1:5 to 1:15 for waterless. QD ratios are even higher. The ratio I used for rinseless was around 1:200 or 1:187 to be exact. I used 2 gallons of water or 7500ml. 1:200 ratio should see me at 37,5ml of product, I rounded it up to 40ml.
For my pre-wash or pre-spray I used Ech2o in a 1:15 dillution ratio (60ml in 1l sprayer) which in the end I used 550ml in total. Surprisingly low usage.

When I mixed it into the bucket It was quite thick and diddnt seperate in the water straight away. If anyone used CG citrus wash and gloss shampoo...well it was something like that. I needed to stir it quite a bit to mix the solution into the water which also made it foam a bit.









I had my rubber gloves on but I could instantly feel the lubrication of this product between my fingers. And even later on when I was washing the car with my sponge the sponge was gliding ontop of the surface. This truly is a very well lubricated product.

The pre-spray was used liberally to ensure all surfaces were coated with this. I noticed no run offs infact the solution clinged on the surface like glue. As said before my sponge soaked in 1:200 solution just glided ontop the surface. I went over it twice. For drying I soked and wringed my Gyeon towel folded in 1/4. I spritzed it with the pre-wash solution and in straight lines dried the panel. I had to hurry as I was working under the sun and the panels were warm. Try to wash with foam and shampoo on the sun...go on I dare you :devil::lol:

All in all it cleaned great although it was a bit of a time waster with the drying part. The sealant part left some hazing behind so I had to go back and buff that off. Even now here and there some parts are not perfect so I advise you to follow up with a QD after washing the entire car. That is my single bad experience with this product but Im very impressed with the rest. The paint felt very slick and glossy. I cant comment on added protection as Ive not tested that. Overall I give it a score of 8/10.

The wash and at the end of the video is swirl finding






End result pics


















Conclusion
Its a very good product but I feel its over-concentrated. Its a bit too oily (all of you who tried it might feel the same) and I dont like the fact I had to check my results and fix what was just a hazy look. I may use a weaker solution next time and hope things will be better. Im very pleased with the waterless solution as I think that it was strong enough to clean even at 1:15 ratio.

As for swirles...well they haven't gone anywhere...no worries there :lol: I cant comment if there are any new ones but to be fair the car could use a very light polish or a glaze to cover some hologram like marring. Nothing major.

As mentioned in the video I decided to do only 2 more videos. Wash #9 will be with Optimum no-rinse and Opti clean and #10 will be a battle comparison of waterless washes between Optimum opti-clean and Carpro Ech2o. I will try to give my point into which is better and why.

My final update will be polishing and swirl removing update. I will try to show what it will take to remove this damage caused not by my rinseless washing but by my poor drying which I am well aware.

Thanks for watching

Until next time :wave:

A&J


----------



## A&J

I used Carpro ech2o on a silver car today. I used less product than yesterday. It was 30ml per 7,5l using a microfiber noodle mitt. There wasn't as much lubrication as yesterday but it was still enough. 

The car was pre sprayed with what was left from yesterday. I did two passes and then I dried using a damp towel. Being it a silver car I dont see any hazing but I did have to chase my tail a bit and buff off some hazing on the glass...all in all the car looks very reflective and clean with which Im satisfied. 

I think this product is better used with a mitt instead of a sponge. Any dirt is easily removed from the mitt with some agitation on the grit guard so it doesnt stain it like ONR for instance which is better used with a sponge.


----------



## A&J

Update - 9th wash

After 16 days and 220km. Temperature was around 21deg. C and sunny.

Products used were:
Optimum Opti-clean
Optimum No-rinse
Optimum Car wax
Gyeon silk dryer

Pre wash state




































A couple of short rain showers and the car got hit with airborne dust...but stand back a couple of steps and it isn't noticeable at all.

As promised and planned I used ONR and Opti clean today with a bit of OCW in the wash solution.










ONR is the type of product that gets misunderstood a lot...A LOT :wall:
People say its a waterless...its not. 
People say you are gonna destroy your car if you ever use it...you are not.
People say its the devils work in a 32oz bottle...well that my friends may just be correct :devil:

People say a lot of bad things about ONR but those words come from people who never used and dont like to be open minded. Traditionalism runs through their veins and they hate the thought that there is technology within the car cleaning industry today that doesn't require soap bubbles to clean the car. And really what are soap bubbles really other than air pockets surrounded with a fine film of soapy water. ONR wasn't the first rinseless product on the earth...there was one back in the 80s or 90s but Optimum took it too a whole new level with a new formula and with a bit of marketing revolutionized the way we can clean our cars.

ONR is not just a rinseless shampoo...o no no...its so much more than that. Its a product that can replace a whole bunch of other cleaning products you may own (glass cleaner, clay lube, APC, interior APC, leather cleaner...)...in short its a technologically advanced wonder bottle.

Its funny how people who never used it bash on it and people who used it love it. Its also funny how people started noticing that if you put some ONR in your normal bubbly shampoo mix the wash media feels a lot slicker. Well guess what? ONR feels like that without the added shampoo too.

OK I admit its not for every situation and if you live in a climate or place that makes your car extremely dirty you may require some pre-washing or PW rinsing first and I dont like convincing people on using it. Use what you want, what you are comfortable with but if you can try a 100 waxes over your life time why on earth not try ONR once.

Enough sweet talk :lol: lets get back to the point.



I used 3 products today. 
I used Opti-clean diluted 1:3 as a pre-wash solution. 
I used ONR diluted 1:256 as my wash solution and I added 10ml of Optimum car wax for some extra protection while Im washing it. Sort of like a wash&wax mix if you will. It also adds shine and slickness to the paintwork.
And ONR in QD strength with some added OCW mixed in distilled water for drying.

What is the point of Opti-clean. Its a waterless wash that is super concentrated with polymers. It uses the same dirt encapsulating formula that ONR just much more concentrated and its a great way to clean moderate to dirty cars. Of course where mud or heavy debris are present you should rinse that away first.
Its sort of a help at the point where you dont know if you should or should not clean with ONR.

My car today wasnt that dirty but I just wanted to show you that these product can work together in so called s.y.n.e.r.g.y. (I had to put dots in between otherwise the word gets censored for some reason)

Anyways here is the video with swirl finding at the end of the video.





End result pics













































That car looks FAB if you as me.

Conclusion
I love ONR because it works and I always get a streak free finish. It smells great (of bubblegum) and it is one of my favorite smelling products. Ive been using it for a while now and is THE ONE product that has to be in my arsenal at all time.

Opti clean Ive first tried last year. Before that I always said I would never use waterless washes but they do come in handy especially when Im polishing the car outdoors. Dust settles on the paint quickly and waterless washes are a great tool to remove that dust from the panel you are working on.

Optimum Car wax is a great wax that lasts me about 6 weeks on a daily driven car that is parked outside 24/7. It could be tweeked a bit as it can streak if used too much and on hot panels but those streaks can be removed with a ONR dampened towel.

There is a lot of great products out there but I keep returning to Optimum as I always get top results with their products. They are all easy to use and to be honest I have no need to look to other brands...sure sometimes curiosity gets the better of me :devil: but eventually I just return back to OPT products.

Next time its the waterless battle between Opti clean, Carpro ech2o and Surf city garage rinse free wash&wax (yes the same product I used in a couple of washes).

Thanks for watching :wave:

Until next time

A&J


----------



## ah234

Have to agree, onr is amazing- currently using W&W, washed my car at least 4-5 times now. I have used a torch, and I have noticed no swirling. Waiting for this bottle to run out before I make a bigger order for optimum products


----------



## Bigpikle

A&J said:


> Its funny how people who never used it bash on it and people who used it love it.
> 
> There is a lot of great products out there but I keep returning to Optimum as I always get top results with their products. They are all easy to use and to be honest I have no need to look to other brands...sure sometimes curiosity gets the better of me :devil: but eventually I just return back to OPT products.
> 
> A&J


A MEN brother  I prefer to use OID or OCW as a drying aid personally, but there's no denying what a great range this gives and how it allows people to develop their own personal ways of working.

When you throw in Opti Seal as a much more durable LSP and Poli Seal and/or GPS as AIOs then you also really add some depth to the range. Then there are some superb polishes and...and....

The only time I really NEED to step outside the range is for a winter LSP as I tend to wash my cars much less often and really want a super durable product that will last months with no issue, so its FK1000 or Megs #16 or something like that, but i suspect I'll go back to one of the Optimum coatings again this summer and that wont be an issue any more


----------



## A&J

Ive used the OPT OID in the ready-to-use version and loved it. Im waiting for the concentrated version to be available at my supplier. He promised me he will order it once he re-supplies the OPT range and I dont know when that will be. It could be next month or next year.

I tried the ONR + OCW QD mix because it got suggested on the OPT forum.

Of course Opti-seal is my preffered drying aid because the water just dissapears in one wipe with a towel.

I dalso bought poli-seal with the ONR and OC bottles and am looking forward to trying it out soon.

Im still opting whether I would use poli-seal and opti-seal for the summer or give the car a light polish with OPT hyper polish and apply gloss-coat. Its gonna be one or the other option.


----------



## lowejackson

I slightly prefer OCW when drying as it feels slicker and I can feel when I need more product but optiseal does seem to disperse the ONR more effectively. Often I alternate between the two although I often think my bottle of optiseal is going to outlast me


----------



## Stephan

Thanks for the long time review. After 2l of MG and Surf city i've washed the car normal with a hose.

Really hate normal washing since i got the hang of rinseless.


----------



## sm81

A&J said:


> Next time its the waterless battle between Opti clean, Carpro ech2o and Surf city garage rinse free wash&wax (yes the same product I used in a couple of washes).
> 
> Thanks for watching :wave:
> 
> Until next time
> 
> A&J


When it is coming out?


----------



## A&J

Soon I hope...its raining this week!


----------



## lowejackson

A&J, looking forward to your test


----------



## A&J

*Update - 10th wash*

After 13 days and 200km. Temperature was around 10deg. C and sunny.










*Products used were:*
Optimum Opti-clean
Carpro Ech2o
Surf city garage rinse free w&w
Plush microfiber towels
*
Pre wash state*













































A couple of days raining left it a bit spotty but nothing major. I meant to do this wash sooner but the weather was terrible. After a month and a half of drought we got rain and freezing temperatures to the point where there was frost in the morning. So I decided to wait and today was the first and the perfect opportunity to wash the car as tomorrow it will rain again.

As promised I used 3 waterless solutions (kind of).

The first was *OPT opti-clean*









Opti-Clean is a revolutionary product that is specially formulated to clean and protect all automotive surfaces safely and efficiently without using any water. A combination of substantive polymers and cleaners safely removes dirt and grime and leaves a glossy protective finish on all automotive surfaces. Optimum Opti-Clean is based on the same natural polymers used in Optimum No Rinse and is safe for use on all automotive surfaces, as well as being safe for the consumer and the environment.

Its priced at 23,90 Eur for 950ml concentrate which dilutes at 1 part product and 3 parts water and at 13,90 Eur for 500ml ready-to-use product.

Create a 1L mix diluted 1:3 and it will cost you 6,28 Eur.

Next up *Carpro Ech2o*








EcH2o is an entirely new waterless cleanser and gloss-enhancer built on 2 years of research and development by CarPro Chemicals! EcH2o was designed to work in harmony with ceramic coatings and even provides easy cleaning of non-coated or waxed surfaces! Based on a SiO2 hybrid framework and an eco-friendly organic lubricant solution, EcH2o safely cleans and glosses a variety of exterior vehicle surfaces with ease!

Its priced at 20,95 Eur for 1L bottle and 13,95 Eur for the 500ml bottle. It dilutes 1:5 to 1:15 for a waterless mix.

Create a 1L mix diluted 1:5 and it will cost you between 3,5 and 4,64 Eur depending which sized bottle you buy.

And the last one was *Surf city garage rinse free wash&wax*








Surf City Garage Water Saver Rinse-Free Wash & Wax is a breakthrough in cleaning technology. Its sophisticated polymers and high quality waxes in a concentrated formula mean you can clean your car anywhere with nothing more than a couple of buckets of clean water and some towels. Too good to be true? Try it yourself and see! The slippery concentrate creates a barrier between your paint and swirl-causing dirt, removing that dirt safely and effectively. Clean your car anywhere, even from the comfort of your garage, all without the need for a hose or running water.

I cant remember the price but I think it was priced at 20,95 Eur for 950mL bottle. It dilutes 1:6 to 1:15 for a waterless mix.

Create a 1L mix diluted 1:6 and it will cost you 2,99 Eur making it the cheapest of the three.

I made a fairly long video which I hope you enjoy with swirl finding at the end of the video. As you will see I brought out my reflector but I was not able to pick up the swirls so later I drove the car to a nearby parking lot and parked it under the sun which showed that swirl are still present but very hardly noticeable.






*End result pic*









*Conclusion*
If I had to award a medal to each of the products I would put

*1. place to Surf city garage*
Its a non fuss product. It has a great dilution ration which at the strongest recommended dilution is the cheapest to use. 
It smells great (something fruity...cant put my finger on it what it actually is) infact its the best smelling product of the 3. 
Its also the cheapest one. I think I paid around 20 Eur for it but I can see it sells at 16 or 17 Eur in Germany so its very well priced for 950ml concentrate. 
Its great at lubrication and it cleans really well. It doesn't leave any smearing, spots or whatever residue behind other than very high gloss.
Its only downside is its hardly available anywhere.

*2. place goes to Carpro Ech2o*
I have a bit of a problem with this product and Ill tell you why but first lets look at he positive things.
Out of the 3 its probably the best cleaner and the best lubricated product. Its also got a great dilution option ranging from 1:5 to 1:15 which makes it quite economical. 
Its priced at 20,95 for 1L which is good but the 500ml version makes it 30% more expensive so be sure you buy the bigger bottle if you like it.
Now the bad parts of it. It smells like mint but its not really nice.
I said it is very well lubricated (which it is) but its also very oily like. It leaves a hazy residue behind which makes you chase your tail over the car and if you miss any of it it will show later on. Its kinda like you apply a sealant on the car but forget to remove it later. 
It leaves behind a glossy finish but Ive noticed the sealant part doesnt really work or change the water behavior on my car.
The residue is not hard to remove but its just annoying to have.

*3. place to OPT opti clean*
This was a tough one but I give Opti clean third place only to the fact its the most expensive but I would still prefer it to Carpro ech2o.
However its dilution ratio is poor compared to the others. 1:3 makes it the most expensive product to use. You could dilute it 1:4 but it wouldnt help much with the cost.
Its smell is a bit off...not the most pleasant one but also not horrible. You get used to it.
Its also the most expensive to buy. Its priced at 23,90 eur for 950ml which is a lot compered to others. The concentrate is still cheaper that the Ready-to-use bottles you get from other manufacturers like Meguiars.
It can be a bit grabby on the towel but it cleans really well. It can leave a bit of smearing behind if you dont wipe it away but note that those are just polymers which are the same as in ONR. A simple wipe will remove them.

Thats my quick conclusion. You may have a different opinion than me.

As for swirls... I though the reflector was gonna show them but it diddnt so Im scratching my head as to how Im gonna show you the difference after removing them because TBH Im having some difficulty spotting them with my own eyes. They are hologram like light.

Got any suggestions?

If you were wondering I was going to use OPT hyper polish, OPT opti-seal and Britemax blackmax to remove the defects.

Thanks for watching

Until next time :wave:

A&J


----------



## sm81

Any help with Ech2o if you use it like rinseless wash with buckets? 1:200 dilution etc...


----------



## A&J

At rinseless dilution it still hazes...just not as much. Its not a prpblem at light colored cars as it is on dark ones. Its a great rinseless cleaner but once you are done be sure to give the car another wipewown using a plush dry microfiber towel.


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## lowejackson

A&J, enjoyed your video. Might be worth trying a small single source of light to try and highlight the paint marks


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## A&J

lowejackson said:


> A&J, enjoyed your video. Might be worth trying a small single source of light to try and highlight the paint marks


Thanks...didnt think a small light will be needed as I thought the reflector will show all the defects...boy was I wrong :lol: They are visible at the end of the video when I was filming on the parkinglot under direct sun.

For next time Ill wash decon (iron remover) and clay the part and Ill use the smaller light source I used in my first video I believe where I showed in what state the paint was in to show them before I polish.


----------



## lowejackson

A&J said:


> Thanks...didnt think a small light will be needed as I thought the reflector will show all the defects...boy was I wrong :lol: They are visible at the end of the video when I was filming on the parkinglot under direct sun.
> 
> For next time Ill wash decon (iron remover) and clay the part and Ill use the smaller light source I used in my first video I believe where I showed in what state the paint was in to show them before I polish.


Have you tried Ferrex yet? Horrible smell like IronX, not cheap but a nice product. Spray and agitate, you get good chemical cleaning as well.

I am very excited, just got some samples of ONR green and D114!


----------



## A&J

No I havent. Its not available here. If it was it would probably be too expensive. 

Im gonna use another Iron remover called Carshinefactory Iron off. Its from a Slovene car care manufacturer (user CSF on this forum) who is slowly releasing his own brand. Some of his stuff is very good. CSF is also a former detailer and my main supplier or car care goodies. 

Have fun with ONR W&W and D114 :thumb:


----------



## A&J

*Final update - Swirl removal and conclusion*

This will be my final update to a long term test where I used only rinseless shampoos to wash my car over winter.

The point of the test was to show you guys & gals that using these shampoos wont harm your paint any more than the stuff you are curently

using.

If used in a correct manner rinseless shampoos are even safer than traditional shampoos. The story behind the concept or theory is that

traditional soappy shampoos are removed after rinsing them so you are dragging your MF towel on bare paint and causing friction between

them while Rinseless shampoos leave a polymer behind that aid in slickness and helps you dry safer (that is at least true for OPT ONR...I

cannot say the same for other rinseless shampoos as I dont know the chemistry behind them).

They also work diferently as soapy shampoos. They trap, emulsify and encapsulate dirt, safely lifting it from the surface and removing it

inside your wash media but note that not all wash medias are good for rinseless. You dont have to complicate too much as a quality sponge

or noodle MF mitt will work just fine. Top tip for this...use the one that releases dirt easily and sponges do that fast and best.

Whichever one you choose note that one pass of Rinseless solution on the paint might not be enough and that maybe sometimes 2-3 will be

needed before removing the excess solution of the paint. And when you do wipe it off you dont need a lot of force doing it...a few light

swipes are better than one agressive swipe. Remember its not the wash process that is inflicting damage its the drying one, but at the

same time you need to do a quality wash before drying. One tip here is to make sure the product starts beading on the surface. That is the

indicator that tells you that you can now safely dry the paint. If the water is still flat on the surface then the road film, and other

dirt has not been succesfully lifted from the surface. In that case do a couple more passes.

I tried a number of Rinseless shampoos along the way, some I liked and some I diddnt but the truth is they all worked. Im still a fan of

ONR and probably always will be but I have discovered a new shampoo that worked really great for me and that was Surf city garage rinse

free wash&wax.

There was also a shampoo that works really well but at the same time I dont like for its residue. That product is Carpro Ech2o. I used it

a couple of times now and even though its the best lubricated and strongest shampoo I just hate the sealant residue it leaves behind for

me to wipe. Its a extra step to take I dont really have time or patience for.

OK lets get back to the point of the test.

I did 10 washes on camera and an extra 3 off camera...one of them was with a standard shampoo I was trying out.
Over the winter I did notice some shallow long swirls that were most likely caused by the drying towel I was using at the time. The

problem with this towel was it did not see the inside of the washing machine in a while and therefore it did acumulate dirt over time. I

believe that was the reason I got them. The twist with these light marring was that they were only visible under the sunlight and under a

certain angle...step 2 steps back and they were gone from the naked eye. Even my spot light or my reflector did not pick them up but they

were there.

As for removal a simple pre-wax cleaner glaze (DJ lime prime lite) covered them quite well so a more agressive polish was not needed. I

still used OPT poli-seal and OPT hyper seal as an example.

Here is the video





Note its quite long...where I cleaned, deconed, clayed and polished the left side of the car...the very same part of the car we were

testing all along.

In my conclusion these washes are safe to use if used in a right way. The technique of washing has to be adapted to the cleaner. You

really have to apply some logic, asses the paint first and respond accordingly. If the car needs a pre-wash (might it be a TFR, snow foam

or APC) and PW rinse then do so if you wish.

There are no rules here and no detailing police will hunt you down if you wash your car in a different and a unique way.

Also please note that these shampoos are not waterless...that is another bunch of worms and I did a video on it in the last 10th update.
Again ONR is NOT a waterless solution...it never has been and it never will be.

Thats it from me...

For the few of you who followed this test from starto to finish I apploud you for doing so. I hope you learned something usefull and

implemented it in your wash process. 
For the rest of you who diddnt...read from start to the end...youll learn a lot. Hopefully it will be that TFRs and Snow foams are not

always needed and that a simple rinseless wash can safely remove whatever is bugging you. This chart might also help you decide the

apropriate wash depending on how dirty it is.










Finally thanks for watching

A&J


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## lowejackson

A&J, nice thread showing the benefits of rinseless washing, thanks for taking the time to post all your results. Glad you ended up with a product you really like, even if it not made by OPT


----------



## A&J

Thanks Lowe...I still ended with ONR as my go-to but there are so many products out there that do the job just as well. Ill still keep buying ONR which I cant say the same for others, some because I dont like and others because I cant get anymore. It was still fun trying them and comparing them to ONR.


----------



## tosh

A&J said:


> Finally thanks for watching
> 
> A&J


Thank you for sticking with this to the end
I've been an ONR/Rinseless convert for quite a while

For any doubters out there - just give it a go - if you don't have easy access to water, or are time poor, or just don't like dragging multiple buckets and hoses out every time you wash your car(s), it really does work.


----------



## steelghost

A very interesting read, A&J. I've got my 32oz bottle of ONR, my Bigpikle-approved grout sponges, a spare pump sprayer and I picked up a nice big, white plasterer's bucket at the weekend to be able to see what comes off the sponge. Now I just need half an hour where the boys and the wife aren't mithering me to do something else


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## Deje

Missed some spots on my car when I washed it yesterday, thought I could now test my rinsless wash that I bought a couple of months ago, a disappointment, did not even get rid of a little light traffic film!

I do not need to mention the name, but it is a famous brand.


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## sm81

Spill it out ...


----------



## A&J

Deje said:


> Missed some spots on my car when I washed it yesterday, thought I could now test my rinsless wash that I bought a couple of months ago, a disappointment, did not even get rid of a little light traffic film!


Depends on how you used it...a lot of people who were dissapointed did not use it properly and tried to use it as a QD instead of a bucket wash. Also spray on and let it dwell for about a minute.

In my case unless if it was mud (which you want to PW off first anyways) or insect poo rinseless washes always removed whatever there was on my car (even during winter).

Also if your current wash regime didnt remove it its not likely a rinseless wash will. In that case use TFR, Snow foam or APC first to soften up dirt, traffic film, let it dwell and rinse, then use rinseless wash.


----------



## Deje

A&J said:


> Depends on how you used it...a lot of people who were dissapointed did not use it properly and tried to use it as a QD instead of a bucket wash. Also spray on and let it dwell for about a minute.
> 
> In my case unless if it was mud (which you want to PW off first anyways) or insect poo rinseless washes always removed whatever there was on my car (even during winter).
> 
> Also if your current wash regime didnt remove it its not likely a rinseless wash will. In that case use TFR, Snow foam or APC first to soften up dirt, traffic film, let it dwell and rinse, then use rinseless wash.


Of course, I use it following manufacturer's recommendations, or else had been strange to write about this in the forum!

Can just speak about this specific product, but it works worse than a quality schampoo If you look at the cleaning ability.

I said I missed some spots !! it does not have anything with my wash regime to do.


----------



## A&J

Sorry to hear that...Rinseless washes really arent for EVERY situation. If you live in a area where your car gets realy dirty really fast then a pre-wash (TFR, snow foam, APC) is a must and you are stuck with doing that.
I live in a area where that doesnt happen to me so I have no need for pre-washes for 90% of my washes.

In short...assess the situation and respond accordingly and use a wash that you are most comfortable with.

What works well in my world may always not work well in yours and vice versa :wave:


----------



## Deje

A&J said:


> Sorry to hear that...Rinseless washes really arent for EVERY situation. If you live in a area where your car gets realy dirty really fast then a pre-wash (TFR, snow foam, APC) is a must and you are stuck with doing that.
> I live in a area where that doesnt happen to me so I have no need for pre-washes for 90% of my washes.
> 
> In short...assess the situation and respond accordingly and use a wash that you are most comfortable with.
> 
> What works well in my world may always not work well in yours and vice versa :wave:


I can not see that this is a product for the Nordic market, regardless of brand.
You'll apparently be able to use it as a window cleaner, hope it works better for it.

Now, if the product is to lift and encapsulate dirt, should you then also just be able to rinse away the dirt ?


----------



## A&J

Nordic you say...tough one! 

You can still use it as a cheap QD, clay lube, window cleaner, for interior wipedowns, light leather cleaner. Its still a usefull product to have.


----------



## A&J

Deje said:


> Missed some spots on my car when I washed it yesterday, thought I could now test my rinsless wash that I bought a couple of months ago, a disappointment, *did not even get rid of a little light traffic film*!


One tip I can give you is to use the Rinseless wash to remove most of the dirt & dust and use a panel wipe when drying the car to remove road film.

Wax after that ofcourse.

A&J


----------



## Deje

A&J said:


> One tip I can give you is to use the Rinseless wash to remove most of the dirt & dust and use a panel wipe when drying the car to remove road film.
> 
> Wax after that ofcourse.
> 
> A&J


Thanks for the advice, but rinseless washing does not work for Nordic conditions, we use studded tires 6-7 months a year, which means that cars are subject to very tough road grimes and dirt
We use naphtha based detergent, Cold degreaser we call it, similar or same as Panel wipe and tar remover, which is sprayed on the car, it solves soot, oil, grease, tar, asphalt and road salt, and is obviously tough for the paint protection.
First using Rinsless Wash and then panel wipe feels therefore unnecessary.

Maybe if we get a good summer, we can use Rinsless Wash for a couple of months:driver:


----------



## A&J

Once you said you live in a Nordic country I knew straight away why Rinseless washes do not work for you.

Give rinseless a try over the summer...It should be good then :thumb:

Take care:wave:


----------



## sm81

I have found that lately I have enjoyed much more washing with rinseless method than normal...strange but nice.


----------



## A&J

I know the feeling


----------



## demis34gt

A&J said:


> Depends on how you used it...a lot of people who were dissapointed did not use it properly and tried to use it as a QD instead of a bucket wash. Also spray on and let it dwell for about a minute.
> 
> In my case unless if it was mud (which you want to PW off first anyways) or insect poo rinseless washes always removed whatever there was on my car (even during winter).
> 
> Also if your current wash regime didnt remove it its not likely a rinseless wash will. In that case use TFR, Snow foam or APC first to soften up dirt, traffic film, let it dwell and rinse, then use rinseless wash.


When you use snow foam, after the rinse with water in order to take off the foam from the paint do you wait the water to dry? Or do you rinsless wash the paint with the paint to be wet?
Sorry for my pour english....


----------



## A&J

demis34gt said:


> When you use snow foam, after the rinse with water in order to take off the foam from the paint do you wait the water to dry? Or do you rinsless wash the paint with the paint to be wet?
> Sorry for my pour english....


Sorry buddy...I diddnt see you there.

Dont wait for the water to dry as that can cause water spots. After you rinse the snow foam you can do a rinseless wash straight after.


----------



## Blue

Just caught this thread now.

I was stuck without any access to a PW, or even a basic hosepipe for about 18 months with my last car, so was forced into trying ONR, which I assumed was going to ruin my car (up until then I was a Snow foam and 2BM only kind of guy).

Suffice to say, there was very, very little marring ended up being inflicted on my car. Further to that, I ended up washing the car every week because I could have the whole thing done in 20 minutes. It took me longer to wash the wheels properly (I still used Bilberry and poured a bucket over them to rinse them) than it did to clean the rest of the car.

As already said, pre-spray from a bottle, a good noodle mitt, and a nice soft drying towel are essential.

Now that I have access to a PW again, I STILL use ONR regularly, it's my go to spray for use with clay bars, and even after a 2BM wash I sometimes spray ONR over the car to aid with drying. It always seems to make the car come out better, with far fewer water spots.

I honestly think it's one of the best products on the market.


----------



## A&J

Blue said:


> It always seems to make the car come out better, with far fewer water spots.
> 
> I honestly think it's one of the best products on the market.


I definitely agree with you :thumb:


----------



## westerman

Blue said:


> Just caught this thread now.
> 
> I was stuck without any access to a PW, or even a basic hosepipe for about 18 months with my last car, so was forced into trying ONR, which I assumed was going to ruin my car (up until then I was a Snow foam and 2BM only kind of guy).
> 
> Suffice to say, there was very, very little marring ended up being inflicted on my car. Further to that, I ended up washing the car every week because I could have the whole thing done in 20 minutes. It took me longer to wash the wheels properly (I still used Bilberry and poured a bucket over them to rinse them) than it did to clean the rest of the car.
> 
> As already said, pre-spray from a bottle, a good noodle mitt, and a nice soft drying towel are essential.
> 
> Now that I have access to a PW again, I STILL use ONR regularly, it's my go to spray for use with clay bars, and even after a 2BM wash I sometimes spray ONR over the car to aid with drying. It always seems to make the car come out better, with far fewer water spots.
> 
> I honestly think it's one of the best products on the market.


As I said in a previous thread, I don't have access to water or electric as I have an allocated plot in our private car park and it's some way away from the house.
Having discovered ONR it's been a godsend and being elderly it takes so much effort out of the process of cleaning the car which I love.

All that said I do go to my daughters and use their drive twice a year to do the necessary detailing where I can access all services.

Harry


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## Peteo48

Just wondering if I could put this out there for comments. I am new to ONR but have used it 4 times now and I'm a definite convert. I'm lucky in that my low mileage means heavy accumulations of dirt are a rarity.

That said, another of my favourite products is Autoglym Aqua Wax which I used regularly - in fact I still use it if I get the hose, 2 buckets and all the rest of the gear out from time to time.

Could this be used with the ONR? I would use it as per the instructions so 2 or 3 squirts per panel on the vehicle after it had been washed with ONR but NOT DRIED - so on the wet car with the ONR solution still sitting on it.

Am I going to do any damage?


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## sm81

No if car is washed properly.


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## tosh

Peteo48 said:


> Could this be used with the ONR? I would use it as per the instructions so 2 or 3 squirts per panel on the vehicle after it had been washed with ONR but NOT DRIED - so on the wet car with the ONR solution still sitting on it.
> 
> Am I going to do any damage?


That's fine, Aqua Wax is supposed to be used on a wet car. There is so little protection in the ONR (blue), it won't affect the aqua wax.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## Bikeracer

Peteo48 said:


> Could this be used with the ONR? I would use it as per the instructions so 2 or 3 squirts per panel on the vehicle after it had been washed with ONR but NOT DRIED - so on the wet car with the ONR solution still sitting on it.
> 
> Am I going to do any damage?


I've been doing that since I started using ONR, never had any problems with Aqua Wax as a drying aid.

Allan


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## demis34gt

Could i use ONR as drying aid and in what dilution rate?
Thank you!!


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## A&J

demis34gt said:


> Could i use ONR as drying aid and in what dilution rate?
> Thank you!!


Yes you can. Mix ONR at 1:64 mix (15 ml per 1liter).


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## demis34gt

A&J said:


> Yes you can. Mix ONR at 1:64 mix (15 ml per 1liter).


Thank you A&J fir your help!! :thumb:


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## stangalang

I am so glad more and more people are at least willing to give this a try. In a world where people find problems to solutions, it seems just getting people to test stuff properly is becoming more and more difficult.


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## sm81

stangalang said:


> I am so glad more and more people are at least willing to give this a try. In a world where people find problems to solutions, it seems just getting people to test stuff properly is becoming more and more difficult.


Do you mean rinseless washing overal or using them as a QD?


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## stangalang

sm81 said:


> Do you mean rinseless washing overal or using them as a QD?


I mean ONR full stop


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## sm81

Yeah. It is truly good method if you know what are you doing.


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## fatdazza

Another one here to agree it is a very good product and very versatile. Thanks for taking the time to write up a very thorough thread. Don’t be put off by the detractors, easy to throw bricks for some, but often they aren’t willing to dedicate the time to produce a through review.


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