# Home Brewing



## rubbishboy

I saw some coconut oil today, actually being eaten as it supposedly has health benefits (anti-fungal so I am told!), this stuff looked and felt just like a car wax and smelt just like PoorBoys Natty Paste. I was tempted to go and rub some on the car just to see what it was like  

Anyway this got me thinking. I have read that some of the ingredients in Z y m o l, Swissvax and other waxes are coconut oil, banana oil, candelilla wax etc, along with the carnauba. What else though. Could I just melt some carnauba wax along with some coconut oil then let it set, or does it need something else. I know some waxes have a solvent, but does it have to have a solvent, if it does what would the solvent be? I have read several recipes for car wax that are just bees wax and turpentine, but I want something a bit fancier than that!

If anybody has tried to make their own before what was your recipe and how was it? If anybody knows the ins and out of wax making have you got any literature that you could point me at?

I'm really intrigued now, but I don't seem to be finding much on google about actually making a wax.

Cheers


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## Dodo Factory

:wave: Good man... this is how Dodo Juice was born. Kind of 

I started asking the same questions and getting involved with basic wax chemistry over the stove at home. The answer is that, yes, you can make a car wax at home, but no, it won't be as good as a proprietary product. That is why Dom's Dodo Juice No. 87 is now sat in a small glass pot at home smelling of turps and brought out occasionally to show people what I made, and why a professional wax chemist company in the UK ended up reformulating, improving and basically completely redeveloping what was left of my recipe over 6-9 months, and created a 'proper' wax that could do battle with the big boys.

If you want to have a fiddle yourself (it is fun, but don't expect great results as you won't get them - I will explain the ins and outs over a beer one day, but if it was that easy I wouldn't be paying a chemist!), you will need:

- a double boiler (cookware shops sell these as they are good at melting chocolate, they are sometimes called 'bain mairies' or something); mine cost about 40 GBP; alternatively you can use a glass jar within a suacepan full of water to act as your melting pot

- some scales, make sure they are accurate from 1-50g as you will only use small quantities of ingredients

- carnauba wax, beeswax granules, coconut oil, turpentine oil (get the real thing, not the substitute. Ebay will be your friend when it comes to sourcing these

There are various wax recipes and experiments to try, and I found that turpentine was by far the best solvent as just using coconut oil created a wax that took far too long to 'dry' on the paintwork, meaning you would smear it. But here's the simplest recipe ever for a coconut oil based car wax (you could also use it for a furniture wax or ski/surf wax, I'm fairly sure).

20g Carnauba flakes
5g Beeswax
50ml Coconut Oil

Firstly, melt the carnauba flakes and beeswax granules in the small glass jar (within a saucepan of boiling water), or double boiler. The beeswax will melt far more quickly than the carnauba, which turns to an amber liquid. When completely molten, stir in the coconut oil, and reheat whilst stirring until the mixture is completely liquid again. Remove the glass jar from the saucepan and allow to cool gradually and naturally for two hours, or even better, overnight. A hard wax will be left behind...

The interesting thing is for you now to try and increase the carnauba content from its present 27% strength - try 30g of Carnauba and see what happens... you may want to keep an eye on manufacturer's percentage figures from that moment on  In fact, you can play around with the basic recipe and make it as complicated as you like (I had about 10 ingredients going in at one stage), but you don't get much better on a home stove. The main improvement is using a drying oil like turpentine oil for the solvent, as it is better to buff off.

Finally, you're asking for a more advanced recipe. Well, start with the basics m'lad as this gives you a good understanding of the ingredients you are dealing with  Secondly, more complication doesn't make a better wax; and thirdly, the more sophisticated results are not possible at home - you need access to some very clever ingredients, such as the latest drying oils and solvents, some proper equipment that can regulate heat far better than a double boiler, and more knowledge than turning a hot plate on or off. A lot of the wax sophistication comes from how they're heated up, cooled down etc, during the manufacturing process.

PS Natty's blue has a bubblegum fragrance in it, so the coconut oil must have been odd; coconut oil in its pure form doesn't smell as strongly of coconuts as say Z..... Carbon, due to fragrances used by wax manufacturers.

PPS Have fun, but if you ever get bored of scraping dry carnauba out of your double boiler (it ain't fun as the stuff doesn't wash out with water!!!) then feel free to buy some Dodo Juice :thumb:


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## rubbishboy

Thanks for that, very informative. Have you got any web-site links or notes from your research? Obviously temperature is critical, along with solvent, are these variations and effects documented anywhere?



Dodo Factory said:


> PS Natty's blue has a bubblegum fragrance in it, so the coconut oil must have been odd; coconut oil in its pure form doesn't smell as strongly of coconuts as say Z..... Carbon, due to fragrances used by wax manufacturers.


I was actually thinking of the white one, it does smell a lot sweeter and there are some other smells there though. After the first smell of the coconut oil, I thought mmm, car wax!



Dodo Factory said:


> PPS Have fun, but if you ever get bored of scraping dry carnauba out of your double boiler (it ain't fun as the stuff doesn't wash out with water!!!) then feel free to buy some Dodo Juice :thumb:


Just for the record, I'm not being a pikey here  , I just like to know how things are made and work. And if I can have a go at something myself, I will.


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## Dodo Factory

Re websites and notes, most of the stuff I learned as I went along; it wasn't for a thesis so I didn't spend a lot of time cataloguing and documenting things. You would need to do some research into wax chemistry to get the answers you are asking for here... once I left it to the chemists I stepped back from the whole process. The library may help, but you could spend a lot of time reading and experimenting - you could probably get a pHD at the end of it. My wax chemists all have degrees, bunsen burners and white coats  It gets professional quite quickly.

Good luck with the project; just have realistic goals and a realistic budget. I spent well over a grand on materials and equipment to make my homemade but only half-decent wax. That's why I got the professionals in, as it would have taken much more time and money to get things up to anywhere near finished Dodo spec.


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## wd40

Interesting reading that !!!!!:thumb:


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## Harley

This is exactly the thing i have been Thinking about with for years but never got round to trying.
what i have been thinking is if you take a wax that was say 30% carnauba wax and melted it down and added more carnauba wax little by little how would it turn out.

Excellent thread chaps :thumb:


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## Frothey

_you could also use it for a furniture wax or ski/surf wax, I'm fairly sure_

i'll just melt down some of my Mrs Palmers for the car then :lol:


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## Dodo Factory

Harley said:


> This is exactly the thing i have been Thinking about with for years but never got round to trying.
> what i have been thinking is if you take a wax that was say 30% carnauba wax and melted it down and added more carnauba wax little by little how would it turn out.
> 
> Excellent thread chaps :thumb:


If you took a 30% carnauba wax and melted it down, it would become a hard wax when it solidifies, like P21S, even if a soft 'sorbet like' wax to begin with. So already you'd be fecking it up 

Then if you added more and more carnauba to it, you would create something unworkable, unusable and pretty useless fairly quickly. Here's what 60% pure carnauba and 40% industrial grade solvent looks like:










Even by 35-40% the formulas start becoming untenable. The best advice is to buy some of these basic ingredients that I have mentioned above, and start fiddling. You will learn a lot about carnauba - why it is good, and why it isn't. You will also have much more respect for wax manufacturers as it ain't as easy as it all seems, but maybe less respect for their marketing guys when you start uncovering what is really in the waxes. And yes, a spectrum analysis machine does help if you want to get really stuck in


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## Dodo Factory

PS Here are the two waxes that I managed to create over a number of months:

One with coconut oil as a solvent, which doesn't buff off that well:










and one that I made with turpentine oil that wasn't too bad, but not half as good as Dodo Juice is today:










Here's one the chemists knocked up, which shows the difference between DIY and being a pro... (shot of current Rainforest Rub soft wax):


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## PhillipM

Frothey said:


> _you could also use it for a furniture wax or ski/surf wax, I'm fairly sure_
> 
> i'll just melt down some of my Mrs Palmers for the car then :lol:


I've got Vic's Concours on my table!


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## Dodo Factory

LOL, yes, many waxes are interchangeable - but car waxes are tougher than furniture waxes to formulate as the wax doesn't get absorbed into the paint, but sits on it. Bonding or soaking oil and wax into wood is easy by comparison. With car wax, it needs to bond to a hard polished surface - but it needs to buff off to a shine rather than staying 'wet' and smearing. I have used beeswax furniture polish on alloy wheels over the winter before now, without buffing it off. At the end of winter, just get some turps and remove all the wax (and brake dust/road grime) from the wheel. The fact it didn't buff off probably helped.


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## rubbishboy

So, what else would make a good solvent. Am I right in saying that the only purpose of the solvent is to keep the wax workable while you apply it, it should then evaporate leaving the wax on the paint ready for you to buff off? Without a solvent the wax is not going to buff easily?

I have seen a block of 100% carnauba before and it was rock hard, in fact it shattered when it was dropped. So I take it you are looking for other ingredients to soften the wax and make it workable?


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## Dodo Factory

rubbishboy said:


> So, what else would make a good solvent. Am I right in saying that the only purpose of the solvent is to keep the wax workable while you apply it, it should then evaporate leaving the wax on the paint ready for you to buff off? Without a solvent the wax is not going to buff easily?
> 
> I have seen a block of 100% carnauba before and it was rock hard, in fact it shattered when it was dropped. So I take it you are looking for other ingredients to soften the wax and make it workable?


Yes, the solvent - or drying oil - as it usually is with a wax, is designed as a carrier. It dissolves, carries and spreads the wax over the surface of application, before evaporating. Without a solvent the wax would be impossible to apply; it would be far too powdery or dry.

The other important ingredients are:
- softer waxes, like beeswax, which are far more malleable
- oils which help lubricate the paint surface as well as having water repellent properties and act as solvents
- silicone - which enhance the properties of the wax in terms of shine and water repellence... it is like turbocharging a car and isn't a bad thing as modern silicones can be more bodyshop friendly than before

For natural solvents, you can use linseed oil as well as turpentine oil - any drying oil, basically, which has a highish evaporation rate. If using petrochemical ones, paraffin is a big favourite and you only need to smell a few of the more famous waxes to realise lots of manufacturers still use petroleum based solvents. The solvents used by many wax manufacturers now are odourless and low in Volatile Organic Compounds for green reasons, yet highly effective. This is where your copy of Chemistry Today comes in handy, as you can't buy them in Homebase


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## Harley

Many Thanks Dodo factory :thumb: 

Interestring stuff.


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## rubbishboy

Thanks Dodo Factory, excellent information. :thumb: 

I have found some wax suppliers and ordered some Carnauba flakes, Candelilla flakes, Bees wax flakes and some Montan wax, along with some "borrowed" coconut oil. That should give me few different concoctions to try out.  

I'm still undecided about the drying oil though. If paraffin is used by commercial makers than it must have some benefts over turpentine. But do I just go and buy a gallon of paraffin from the local hardware shop or do I need a different grade? Also bearing in mind that paraffin makes a pretty good degreaser would this effect the layering abilities of my wax? The paraffin stripping the first layer off as you add another I mean.

Once again, thanks for the information. I got more from your posts than from about 3 hours Googling.


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## PhillipM

If you can get the smell of fried bacon + egg in there I reckon youve cracked the UK market :lol:


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## Silver

Interesting read!!!


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## rubbishboy

PhillipM said:


> If you can get the smell of fried bacon + egg in there I reckon youve cracked the UK market :lol:


I was thinking a bit of Lynx in there, you know making good girls naughty and all that!


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## Dodo Factory

rubbishboy said:


> Thanks Dodo Factory, excellent information. :thumb:
> 
> I have found some wax suppliers and ordered some Carnauba flakes, Candelilla flakes, Bees wax flakes and some Montan wax, along with some "borrowed" coconut oil. That should give me few different concoctions to try out.
> 
> I'm still undecided about the drying oil though. If paraffin is used by commercial makers than it must have some benefts over turpentine. But do I just go and buy a gallon of paraffin from the local hardware shop or do I need a different grade? Also bearing in mind that paraffin makes a pretty good degreaser would this effect the layering abilities of my wax? The paraffin stripping the first layer off as you add another I mean.
> 
> Once again, thanks for the information. I got more from your posts than from about 3 hours Googling.


No probs. Have fun with the experiments. 

All wax dissolving solvents will have the potential to strip subsequent layers, but remember that you are not applying neat solvent to the last layer - but a wax and solvent blend. So it is only a fraction of its original strength and won't strip the wax layer like neat solvent.

Paraffin is a stronger solvent and more volatile than turpentine oil, which means it evaporates better, thus aiding buffing. It is less lubricious though, so I would advise some coconut oil in the blend. As far as grades go, the purer the product the better in most cases, but there are no hard and fast rules. Most mass market waxes are made with cheaper, high volume ingredients, rather than the hyper expensive 'ultra-pure' ones, and there may be little difference in performance - just in terms of cost of ingredients.


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## rubbishboy

A strange addition to my detailing collection! Don't worry, I'm not going to use all the ingredients at once. 










What we have is:

Wax and solids:
T1 Yellow Carnauba Flakes
Coconut Oil (It's actually more like butter)
Bees Wax Bars
Candelilla Wax Flakes
Montan Wax Prills (little granules)

Solvent / drying oils:
Turpentine
Paraffin
Orange Oil

Now to actually try making some.


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## Dodo Factory

Looks like Ocky's owes you a Christmas Card in December! LOL. In future, try and find the beeswax pellets - they will melt a damn site quicker than the wax blocks. You can grate the blocks in a cheese grater but it is best to buy a new one rather than use the one in the kitchen drawer as the wax doesn't come off it easily. Have fun with the experiments and let me know how you get on. :thumb:


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## Dodo Factory

Oh, and watch out for the Montan wax. Just one pellet will stain a carpet etc. Montan wax is evil stuff - it's why it's used in shoe polish


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## wd40

rubbishboy said:


> A strange addition to my detailing collection! Don't worry, I'm not going to use all the ingredients at once.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What we have is:
> 
> Wax and solids:
> T1 Yellow Carnauba Flakes
> Coconut Oil (It's actually more like butter)
> Bees Wax Bars
> Candelilla Wax Flakes
> Montan Wax Prills (little granules)
> 
> Solvent / drying oils:
> Turpentine
> Paraffin
> Orange Oil
> 
> Now to actually try making some.


Look forward to seeing a finished result mate !!:thumb:


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## rubbishboy

Well, the first attempt didn't go too well! But then I wasn't expecting it to really. I just wanted to melt the waxes down and see how they looked and felt.

My first one had a mixture of all the waxes I bought, just becuase I wanted to see what they were like.

In the mix was:
30g of Carnauba wax
20g of Coconut oil
10g of Bees wax
10g of Montan wax
30ml of Orange oil










It's very hard!!! and crumbly completely unusable.

The second one was a more genuine effort.
This mix was:
40g Carnauba wax
20g Coconut
10g Bees wax
10g Candilla wax
40ml Orange Oil










It looked pretty good, just like a real wax!!! But again completely unusable.










Very hard, dry and crumbly. Absolutely no slip or lubrication.

So my next batch has been made and I am waiting for it to cool.










These two have been made with a much more conservative amount of carnauba (less than 25%) and a lot more coconut for lubrication. We'll see how they work a bit later!


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## Harley

rubbishboy said:


> It looked pretty good, just like a real wax!!! But again completely unusable.


Well done with your efforts so far

that is looking good did you add any turpentine in that mixture ?


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## rubbishboy

Harley said:


> Well done with your efforts so far
> 
> that is looking good did you add any turpentine in that mixture ?


No mate I didn't, I used orange oil instead which is also called D-Limonene or Turpene, it's a bit like turpentine, but comes from the skin of oranges, is supposedly a bit greener! The product I bought is actually sold as a thinner for floor wax.


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## nortonski

So has the next batch cooled yet??

What's the verdict??


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## PhillipM

rubbishboy said:


> No mate I didn't, I used orange oil instead which is also called D-Limonene or Turpene, it's a bit like turpentine, but comes from the skin of oranges, is supposedly a bit greener! The product I bought is actually sold as a thinner for floor wax.


It's good stuff to run the car on too!


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## rubbishboy

nortonski said:


> So has the next batch cooled yet??
> 
> What's the verdict??


Not yet, let you know later.:thumb:


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## rubbishboy

PhillipM said:


> It's good stuff to run the car on too!


At £6.99 for 250ml it would be an expensive trip!


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## PhillipM

rubbishboy said:


> At £6.99 for 250ml it would be an expensive trip!


But a fun one!


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## Dodo Factory

Don't use the orange oil, it won't buff off and is too greasy. Use turpentine oil instead, or experiment with the paraffin.


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## wd40

Your first attempt looks like a christmas pudding !!!!!!!:lol: :lol: 

Only joking , take my hat off to you mate :thumb: 
Keep trying mate


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## daveb

A above keep goeing mate! this is a REALLY GOOD thread:thumb:


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## rubbishboy

Right batch number 2 has cooled.

This is looking more promising and I'm getting very excited!!!

Wax 1 apporx 25% carnauba:

This mix was:
25g of Carnauba Wax
25g of Candelilla Wax
25g of Coconut Oil
25ml of Paraffin










Still is a bit hard, but is moist and feels lubricated, not too crumbly.










Wax 2, approx 28% carnauba:

This mix was:
25g of Carnauba
5g of Bees Wax
30g of Coconut Oil
30ml of Orange Oil

Now this is not bad at all.










Nice and soft, kind of melts on your fingers as you rub it, feels greasy and lubricated. It does have a slightly grainy texture though. You could probably apply this by hand quite nicely.

Compared with Natty's White.









Right now to give them a little try.

Panel was washed and then cleaned with Sonus paint cleaner.










I put a coat of each on the lower black section only. Wax 2 is on the left, up to where the Yamaha writing stops and wax 1 on the right. After application.









Left to dry for 15 minutes, then buffed off. Both buffed off really well actually, no work needed, left a nice shine.



















Now to try a beading test, seemed to sheet well and beeds nicely.



















I'll leave the panel out in the rain and weather and we'll see how it fairs.

My preference was wax 2, being softer and felt more lubricated, but even so wax 1 did actually apply quite nicely, and buff off quite well.

So in my next batch my aim is to try and get a bit more carnauba in and try and stop the grainy texture of the softer wax.


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## rubbishboy

wd40 said:


> Your first attempt looks like a christmas pudding !!!!!!!:lol: :lol:
> 
> Only joking , take my hat off to you mate :thumb:
> Keep trying mate


Funnily enough, the pots i've been using are pudding moulds!! Just hope the mrs doesn't realise.


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## rubbishboy

Dodo Factory said:


> Don't use the orange oil, it won't buff off and is too greasy. Use turpentine oil instead, or experiment with the paraffin.


I quite liked the feel of the latest wax I did with the orange oil in, it did actually buff off quite nicely, although I was careful only to apply a very thin layer and left to dry for 15 minutes.


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## wd40

This is brillliant mate i `m enjoying following your progress,
Keep it up !!!!!!!!!!!:thumb: :thumb:


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## PhillipM

Come on then, where's our samples? :lol:


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## Brazo

Great read mate and 10 out of 10 for dogged determination!!!


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## talisman

i have a feeling dodo will have some competition in the very near future........


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## Dodo Factory

LOL. There's probably another 5 months and 28 days of experimenting and research to go, but great results so far


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## PhillipM

That's it, I'm off to ebay!


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## Neil_S

It's very interesting, keep up the good work :thumb:


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## wd40

Whats it gonna be named then ` rubbishboys world ` supa carnauba!!!!!
:lol: :thumb: :lol:


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## rubbishboy

Thanks for the encouragement everyone. :thumb:


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## rubbishboy

PhillipM said:


> That's it, I'm off to ebay!


I haven't found everything needed on ebay, the wax is no problem though.


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## rubbishboy

Dodo Factory said:


> LOL. There's probably another 5 months and 28 days of experimenting and research to go, but great results so far


And the courage to actually go and wipe the stuff on my car!

One of the ingredients I wanted to try was Banana Oil, but I don't seem to be able to buy it any where other than in bulk from chemical distibutors, any suggestions?


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## rubbishboy

wd40 said:


> Whats it gonna be named then ` rubbishboys world ` supa carnauba!!!!!
> :lol: :thumb: :lol:


That's a good name, I suppose you'll want a royalty for that.


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## wd40

rubbishboy said:


> That's a good name, I suppose you'll want a royalty for that.


OOO never thought of that !!!!:lol: :lol: 
50p per pot


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## rubbishboy

Attempt number 3 was made a few minutes ago and is cooling.










They are both higher percentage carnauba versions of last night's attempt. The one on the left is approx 39% and the one on the right 30%.

More to come!


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## daveb

I am really excited about this, keep up the intresting work!


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## PootleFlump

Have you tried cooling in the fridge/freezer? It might have finer crystal structure if it cools quicker. Dunno but maybe something to try.


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## rubbishboy

PootleFlump said:


> Have you tried cooling in the fridge/freezer? It might have finer crystal structure if it cools quicker. Dunno but maybe something to try.


I haven't yet, but it was on my list of experiments, most of the recipes I've read for candles, makeup, furniture wax etc all say to leave to cool naturally.


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## Dodo Factory

Yes, leave to cool naturally or you will find that the wax won't bond... it becomes powdery and watery, if you see what I mean, rather than a consistent texture.

How did you get on with the 30% and 39% carnauba waxes after they had cooled? You should be getting to the bounds of unworkability


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## rubbishboy

Batch 3 has cooled and here is what we have.

Mix 3 - Approx 39% carnauba, this was a variation on my Mix 2 from last night:
35g Carnauba Wax
5g Bees Wax
30g Coconut Oil
20ml Orange Oil



















This was a lot harder wax, not unusable but pretty damn hard. But when rubbed in your fingers it did melt and feel lubricated. I applied it using a microfibre cloth, and left to dry for 15 minutes and it did buff off really well, probably because of the hardness you could only a apply a very thin layer.

I've realised I am going to run out of things to apply it to pretty quickly, so was looking around for shiny things to wax. I came up with these, blank CD's. Smooth and shiny and you can see quite easily if you have inflicted any scratches. What I won't know though is how well it feeds the paint.

Mix 3 applied









and buffed









Mix 4 - Approx 30% carnauba a variation on my Mix 1 from last night:
30g Carnauba Wax
10g Candelilla Wax
30g Coconut Oil
30g Paraffin

Not as hard as it's previous version, but still quite a hard wax. Again once rubbed in your fingers it did melt and applied better than mix 3. Same application and left for 15 minutes, and also buffed off really well. I also tried applying this by hand and it worked better, a little chunk rubbed in your hands softened up quite well and spread quite easily.














































My favoruite is still Mix 2 from last night, it was really soft and very easy to apply and buff.


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## Dodo Factory

rubbishboy said:


> And the courage to actually go and wipe the stuff on my car!
> 
> One of the ingredients I wanted to try was Banana Oil, but I don't seem to be able to buy it any where other than in bulk from chemical distibutors, any suggestions?


You can try William Hodgsons, a specialist oil supplier to the trade. It is difficult to get 'over the counter'. Most Banana Oils are really just banana fragrances used in the home cosmetics industry for people making banana fragranced soaps etc. In contrast, we put a whole banana into each pot of Banana Armour


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## rubbishboy

Dodo Factory said:


> How did you get on with the 30% and 39% carnauba waxes after they had cooled? You should be getting to the bounds of unworkability


They won't be final choice definately, much to hard for my taste!


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## talisman

really nice to see dodo giving out tips and advise to rubbishboy, most other people would be keeping things to themselves, i guess dodo know at some point rubbishboy will hit a wax brickwall so to speak and need money and chemist to progress but still nice to see....


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## rubbishboy

Dodo Factory said:


> You can try William Hodgsons, a specialist oil supplier to the trade.


Thanks, I'll have a look.



Dodo Factory said:


> In contrast, we put a whole banana into each pot of Banana Armour


You do realise if you tell me things like that, I will try it. :lol:


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## charger17

Dodo Factory said:


> You can try William Hodgsons, a specialist oil supplier to the trade. It is difficult to get 'over the counter'. Most Banana Oils are really just banana fragrances used in the home cosmetics industry for people making banana fragranced soaps etc. In contrast, we put a whole banana into each pot of Banana Armour


I thought 'banana oil' was actually isoamyl acetate which is a solvent with a banana fragrance, no trace of real banana at all. In all honesty adding a banana to the mix isn't going to do anything to improve the shine or durability of your wax, you'd be better off adding some silicones to your recipe.


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## Dodo Factory

talisman said:


> really nice to see dodo giving out tips and advise to rubbishboy, most other people would be keeping things to themselves, i guess dodo know at some point rubbishboy will hit a wax brickwall so to speak and need money and chemist to progress but still nice to see....


Well, I suppose this is the crux of it... it isn't easy to make a great wax, but it IS relatively simple to make an average wax, and it is a lot of fun getting there. I came across this problem about 18 months ago, and if it was truly easy to get world beating results on a stove at home I would have cut out the middleman. But the more you guys know about wax and carnauba the better. There is so much misinformation out there, nothing beats trying to make a wax for yourself.


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## Dodo Factory

charger17 said:


> I thought 'banana oil' was actually isoamyl acetate which is a solvent with a banana fragrance, no trace of real banana at all. In all honesty adding a banana to the mix isn't going to do anything to improve the shine or durability of your wax, you'd be better off adding some silicones to your recipe.


A very pertinent post  This is half the problem with the world of oils and waxes... some are 'real' oils, others are just fragrances or diluted oils. Some oils have a benefit (lubricity etc.), whereas others won't help much at all. Silicones are much maligned and can have a place in modern car waxes. The difficulty is that dimethicone (silicone) comes in more than one guise.


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## rubbishboy

talisman said:


> really nice to see dodo giving out tips and advise to rubbishboy, most other people would be keeping things to themselves, i guess dodo know at some point rubbishboy will hit a wax brickwall so to speak and need money and chemist to progress but still nice to see....


For me this is a bit of fun to learn about something I enjoy using if I can make a wax that is nice to use on my car, then all the better.



Dodo Factory said:


> Well, I suppose this is the crux of it... it isn't easy to make a great wax, but it IS relatively simple to make an average wax, and it is a lot of fun getting there. I came across this problem about 18 months ago, and if it was truly easy to get world beating results on a stove at home I would have cut out the middleman. But the more you guys know about wax and carnauba the better. There is so much misinformation out there, nothing beats trying to make a wax for yourself.


I've already realised that, in my first few goes. Like Dodo Factory has said in several posts and on his website, carnauba claims of manufacturers don't add up. Either there is a process/chemical to soften the carnauba that I need to find out about or some creative mathematics to get the figures.


----------



## PootleFlump

rubbishboy said:


> I've already realised that, in my first few goes. Like Dodo Factory has said in several posts and on his website, carnauba claims of manufacturers don't add up. Either there is a process/chemical to soften the carnauba that I need to find out about or some creative mathematics to get the figures.


As a cynic I'd reckon on creative math


----------



## charger17

rubbishboy said:


> For me this is a bit of fun to learn about something I enjoy using if I can make a wax that is nice to use on my car, then all the better.
> 
> I've already realised that, in my first few goes. Like Dodo Factory has said in several posts and on his website, carnauba claims of manufacturers don't add up. Either there is a process/chemical to soften the carnauba that I need to find out about or some creative mathematics to get the figures.


Don't bother looking for a way to soften the carnauba, you won't find one. When certain products claim X % of carnauba, they are refering to the percentage of carnauba against the percentage of other waxes in their formula, ie parafin wax, beeswax etc. So, why don't they simply use 100% carnauba? I think you've already started to discover the answer, carnauba is a very difficult wax to formulate with, get it wrong and you end up with the wax and the solvent separating, giving you a layer of solvent on top of the wax when you open the tin. By diluting the carnauba content with other easier to work with waxes you can overcome this problem and save yourself some money. This is why manufacturers have to come up with various marketing claims to sell their product. 
As I mentioned before, an important ingredient in any wax is silicone. Silicones in waxes/polishes have many uses, some give great shine, some are used to make the product easy to apply/remove, some give durability etc. It's not uncommon for a product to use 3 or 4 different silicone polymers to achieve all of these properties. Take a look at the Dow Corning web site to get some idea of the amount of silicones available to give your product different characteristics

http://www.dowcorning.com/applicati...T=PRODUCT&WT.svl=1&Ne=4294965469&DCCD=PRODUCT

Glad to see you're enjoying your experiments, I always enjoy my time at the Mark-V plant in the states. There's something about taking various ingredients and actually making something useful out of them, or maybe I'm still just a big kid:thumb:


----------



## rubbishboy

charger17 said:


> Don't bother looking for a way to soften the carnauba, you won't find one. When certain products claim X % of carnauba, they are refering to the percentage of carnauba against the percentage of other waxes in their formula, ie parafin wax, beeswax etc.


Well that would certainly make acheiving a 70% carnauba easier!! In fact I have already done better and got a workable product. My wax 2 would work out at 83%!!!



charger17 said:


> As I mentioned before, an important ingredient in any wax is silicone. Silicones in waxes/polishes have many uses, some give great shine, some are used to make the product easy to apply/remove, some give durability etc.


I might have a go with silicone, but I'd like to get a nice recipe for an all natural one first.


----------



## PhillipM

Just a quick thought from my days of making up batches of lubricating gels at uni - do you have a blender?

In order to stop the gels from crystallising at they cooled (going hard and not lubricating right), we used to put them in a blender, insulate it so the stuff cooled very slowly over a day or two, and just leave it on fairly slow to keep the mix moving - much like making scrambled eggs or ice-cream.

Just a thought!


----------



## rubbishboy

PhillipM said:


> Just a quick thought from my days of making up batches of lubricating gels at uni - do you have a blender?
> 
> In order to stop the gels from crystallising at they cooled (going hard and not lubricating right), we used to put them in a blender, insulate it so the stuff cooled very slowly over a day or two, and just leave it on fairly slow to keep the mix moving - much like making scrambled eggs or ice-cream.
> 
> Just a thought!


I was thinking the very same thing, just like making ice cream, you have to stop the ice crystals forming. The only problem being getting my hands on the blender and then surviving the evening.


----------



## rubbishboy

Been shopping today and browsing at all the different shelves looking for ingredient ideas. The Mrs now thinks I am a complete mentalist!!! Any way I have some Sun Flower oil and some Glycerin to try.


----------



## tsw06

What a great read! Keep up the experiments :thumb:


----------



## rubbishboy

Glycerin was a complete non starter, when I added it to the molten wax it looked like it all mixed up but when the wax cooled the glycerin seperated and ended up at the bottom of the pot. And that was my last lot of Carnauba too.  

Now I've seen glycerin as an ingredient in some waxes, it's in Z y m o l Royale, how do I stop it seperating though?

It does leave your fingers feeling soft after you've rubbed them in it too.


----------



## PhillipM

Must be a solvent you can add just a trace of that will mix with both and keep them together.

Acetones good for that, but I'd be nervous of using it in car wax!

Think you could do with doing the samples half the size until you get one you like.


----------



## Glossmax

PhillipM said:


> Just a quick thought from my days of making up batches of lubricating gels at uni - do you have a blender?
> 
> In order to stop the gels from crystallising at they cooled (going hard and not lubricating right), we used to put them in a blender, insulate it so the stuff cooled very slowly over a day or two, and just leave it on fairly slow to keep the mix moving - much like making scrambled eggs or ice-cream.
> 
> Just a thought!


Great thread!
Instead of a blender could a Vibrating platform do the same job?


----------



## rubbishboy

A question for Dodo Factory, based on 90g of finished product with 25g of Carnauba and 10g of Bees and the rest oils and solvents, giving 27.7% overall carnauba content, but 71.4% of wax content, how would this compare to carnauba content of a commercial wax? I'm not asking you to give any details away of a specific Dodo juice product or anything like, just whether this would be in the ball park or whether it is way under.

Thanks:thumb:


----------



## rubbishboy

PhillipM said:


> Must be a solvent you can add just a trace of that will mix with both and keep them together.
> 
> Acetones good for that, but I'd be nervous of using it in car wax!
> 
> Think you could do with doing the samples half the size until you get one you like.


A Stabiliser? (is that what is would be called?).


----------



## Dodo Factory

rubbishboy said:


> A question for Dodo Factory, based on 90g of finished product with 25g of Carnauba and 10g of Bees and the rest oils and solvents, giving 27.7% overall carnauba content, but 71.4% of wax content, how would this compare to carnauba content of a commercial wax? I'm not asking you to give any details away of a specific Dodo juice product or anything like, just whether this would be in the ball park or whether it is way under.
> 
> Thanks:thumb:


This is the absolute point of the thread. The carnauba ratio you are discovering is probably about right for most of the commercial 'high carnauba' waxes. There will be a few percentage points given here and there, but overall, you are close to *our* estimated carnauba saturation point. We estimate about 25-35% true carnauba vs overall weight for our waxes (the recipes change slightly between variants), with maybe 40% being the ceiling for something that spreads from a pot at room temperature. What interests me is when a higher figure is claimed, no-one seems too keen to say '83% of residual solids' (ie what's left behind after evaporation of the solvent on the bodywork) or '83% of wax content not overall content'. If some creative calculation is going on, this may have helped achieve a few short term marketing goals, but has confused the market in the long term, as people worship carnauba when actually it is just one ingredient of many. And the other ingredients could arguably be seen as more critical (car waxes were fine before carnauba really took off, they just weren't as durable as they were basically beeswax recipes).

The other point is that when you see something written on a label, e.g. glycerine, you are not told of how the ingredient is used or in what quantity it is used. Don't be steered or mislead by stated ingredients. Use them as a point of research, but ultimately don't treat them as gospel.

Your next challenge should be to make a wax emulsion. These are harder to make as you use water as the solvent... you know how immiscible carnauba is with water - imagine how they make a cleaner wax that contains both? The factor here is to find a good emulsifier. I was using vegetal, which you should be able to find online. It is amazing what emulsifiers can do 

Keep having fun; when Dodo Juice grows a bit, we'll have to get a job in the lab, LOL


----------



## rubbishboy

Dodo Factory said:


> This is the absolute point of the thread. The carnauba ratio you are discovering is probably about right for most of the commercial 'high carnauba' waxes. There will be a few percentage points given here and there, but overall, you are close to *our* estimated carnauba saturation point. We estimate about 25-35% true carnauba vs overall weight for our waxes (the recipes change slightly between variants), with maybe 40% being the ceiling for something that spreads from a pot at room temperature. What interests me is when a higher figure is claimed, no-one seems too keen to say '83% of residual solids' (ie what's left behind after evaporation of the solvent on the bodywork) or '83% of wax content not overall content'. If some creative calculation is going on, this may have helped achieve a few short term marketing goals, but has confused the market in the long term, as people worship carnauba when actually it is just one ingredient of many. And the other ingredients could arguably be seen as more critical (car waxes were fine before carnauba really took off, they just weren't as durable as they were basically beeswax recipes).


Thanks, now I know I'm in the ball park, then I can turn my attention to the oils and leave the basic wax mixture alone. I am confident I can make a usable wax with those ratios.



Dodo Factory said:


> The other point is that when you see something written on a label, e.g. glycerine, you are not told of how the ingredient is used or in what quantity it is used. Don't be steered or mislead by stated ingredients. Use them as a point of research, but ultimately don't treat them as gospel.


At the moment, I don't really know what certain ingredients give the wax, so am nicking ideas off labels to get ideas. 



Dodo Factory said:


> Your next challenge should be to make a wax emulsion. These are harder to make as you use water as the solvent... you know how immiscible carnauba is with water - imagine how they make a cleaner wax that contains both? The factor here is to find a good emulsifier. I was using vegetal, which you should be able to find online. It is amazing what emulsifiers can do


I'll have a go at that, need some more carnauba before I can do any more. I had read some stuff about emulsifying, but they were using ammonia  , wasn't keen on that!



Dodo Factory said:


> Keep having fun; when Dodo Juice grows a bit, we'll have to get a job in the lab, LOL


I don't think you would if could see the mess I make. :lol:


----------



## rubbishboy

Got through another load of Carnauba and coconut oil  , but after the challenge laid down by Dodo Factory, I have made quite a successful wax emulsion and here it is. 










Very soft and buttery, but you have to give it little rub to warm it up before you can make it spread.



















I got a bit carried away when applying it, as you can see by the thick clump in the middle!!



















But it did buff off nicely, and left a nice shine, actually perfectly useable and I am very tempted to rub this on a car sometime over the weekend and give it a proper test.

Now my recipe for this was a little light on carnauba. With the emulsion, I seem to have to drop the wax right down otherwise I end with something too hard and can't be applied. This was the most succesful attempt, all the others either too wet, too hard, curdeled, didn't emulsify etc . A drop of paraffin made it a little easier to spread too.

Only 11.1% in total is carnauba, but 66.6% of the wax content is carnauba, so it's either 11.5% or a 66.6% depending on how you want to measure it! However 55% of this recipe is water.


----------



## Glossmax

Brilliant stuff, would be great to see this on a car and also find out how well it lasts.


----------



## PhillipM

I'm running a durability test on the roof of the GT6 at the minute, there's 2 masked squares spare!


----------



## Dodo Factory

Great work, RB! The emulsions are a challenge - especially as you will find them going mouldy quite quickly. The carnauba percentages are interesting... I bet you won't look at those claims in the same light ever again


----------



## Georgy

As said before great thread.
Top praise has to go out to Dodo Factory for being so very helpful and making this thread what it is.
Also top respects to RB for sticking at it!

Well done guys :thumb: :thumb:


----------



## Dodo Factory

Ta Georgy - just want to help bust a few myths as knowledge is power etc. Also, it's how Dodo Juice got created... and we may yet see a rubbishboy wax brought to market, but even if not, it's going to be fun for RB making the motorbike fairing shiny


----------



## rubbishboy

PhillipM said:


> I'm running a durability test on the roof of the GT6 at the minute, there's 2 masked squares spare!


Your welcome to try it mate, but I'd like to refine my recipe a bit first though. :thumb:


----------



## rubbishboy

Dodo Factory said:


> I bet you won't look at those claims in the same light ever again


I stopped believing those claims after the first couple of attempts.


----------



## Georgy

any more update on how you have been getting on?


----------



## rubbishboy

Georgy said:


> any more update on how you have been getting on?


I've run out of carnauba wax at the moment, just waiting for some more to arrive any day now.


----------



## Bence

If you want to try a truly all-natural formula, you can try lecithin or beeswax/borax as emulsifiers and grapefruit seed extract as biocide.


----------



## rubbishboy

Bence said:


> If you want to try a truly all-natural formula, you can try lecithin or beeswax/borax as emulsifiers and grapefruit seed extract as biocide.


Borax, I have read about but wasn't sure after reading some things about it's toxicity.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borax

Thanks for the tips on the others I'll look into them. :thumb:


----------



## Bence

The beeswax/borax emulsifier is often can be found in hand cremes, lotions, etc.


----------



## rubbishboy

Well I haven't received my order of carnauba wax yet, so haven't been able to make any more waxes, but I did recieve a new ingredient this morning to try. Kaolin, not to make wax with, but to make a pre wax cleaner.










I'm not becoming all metrosexual or anything  , as well as for making face packs it's supposed to be a mild abrasive! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaolin

Took a few go's to come up with something useful, hence the almost empty pot of Kaolin, but this it the finished article.










Now my test panel is already pretty clean and I haven't got anything else at the moment to test it on, I need to go and find an oxidised car to test it properly, but here or some shots of a clean panel which has been treated to a good rub or my PWC, it has left a nice slick finish and was really easy to buff off.










And then a coat of my best so far carnauba wax.










The ingredients in this are quite simple, coconut oil and sunflower for lubrication and to feed the paint, orange oil to cleanse and act as a bit of a solvent, water, kaolin and emulsifer. But it is a bit trickier to make without ending up with a curdled mess in the bottle though!


----------



## Richy888

Been reading this thread since the beginning and it is truely stunning :thumb: 

Hat off to you fella for determination!! And moving on to a pre-wax cleaner!!! Impresive!!!


----------



## beedie

i hope you're going to save money at the end of this cause by now you could have bought a decent z y m o l or swissvax wax. 
You planning on marketing once you've found the best results?


----------



## rubbishboy

beedie said:


> i hope you're going to save money at the end of this cause by now you could have bought a decent z y m o l or swissvax wax.


For me this was not an exercise in saving money, you are completely spot on I could have gone a bought a pot of Z y m o l concours for the money I have spent. I wanted to have a go and have fun doing something different and learning about a product I like. Also the weathers been so **** that I wouldn't have been able to use the pot of overpriced water with a little bit of wax in anyway. 



beedie said:


> You planning on marketing once you've found the best results?


I don't know, as above it's just a bit a fun really.


----------



## Dodo Factory

Well done RB... as you can see on the polishing forum, dodo has been busy with the PWC as well.


----------



## rubbishboy

Just a quick update, for anyone still interested!

I've think I've got a recipe I'm happy with. It's got 27.8% carnauba wax content by weight and uses no petrochemicals. Spreads nicely, buffs off nice and leaves nice a shine. I put it on a test panel and left it out in the westher, just walked past it and thought "that looks good", so thought I would just share what I saw.










I'm confident of using this one on a real subject, so hopefully if the weather is okay, I can get a coat or two on a car this weekend.


----------



## beardboy

That looks good mate, nice beading!

Hope to see it on the shelves soon :thumb:


----------



## Glossmax

Great stuff RB.


----------



## dhracer

:doublesho legendary

This is a really interesting read


----------



## Dodo Factory

RB, if you want - and the wax is pretty good - we can get our chemists to evaluate it. If it's decent, we could even help bring it to market for you, or make a few production changes to the recipe etc. PM me if you're interested.


----------



## Georgy

Well done RB! Really good progress!


----------



## Glossmax

Dodo Factory said:


> RB, if you want - and the wax is pretty good - we can get our chemists to evaluate it. If it's decent, we could even help bring it to market for you, or make a few production changes to the recipe etc. PM me if you're interested.


Great offer Dodo, hope RB takes you up on it.
"Rubbish wet wax" is a step closer


----------



## Georgy

Pug_101 said:


> Great offer Dodo, hope RB takes you up on it.
> "Rubbish wet wax" is a step closer


I cant see that selling all that well with that name!

Im thinking maybe "Rubbish's wet wax", or "RBs homebrew"! :lol:


----------



## rubbishboy

Dodo Factory said:


> RB, if you want - and the wax is pretty good - we can get our chemists to evaluate it. If it's decent, we could even help bring it to market for you, or make a few production changes to the recipe etc. PM me if you're interested.


:thumb: Thanks, that sounds good, a professional evaluation would certainly make my mind up if it's worth pursuing (or not!).


----------



## Dodo Factory

Georgy said:


> I cant see that selling all that well with that name!
> 
> Im thinking maybe "Rubbish's wet wax", or "RBs homebrew"! :lol:


Ooh, I dunno... there's a Poorboy's out there... a Rubbishboy's could slot in nicely. Homebrew idea is nice tho'  We'll have to credit you if we use it


----------



## prelude_stan

Great beading pic there, I dare say it's probably one of the best I've seen on here as well

Well done for sticking with it and I hope you are quite successful if you manage to make a decent wax (I'll take a pot!)


----------



## rubbishboy

I have spent quite a bit of time researching various solvents to use in my wax experiments.

One had me truely stumped and I could not find any information on it even after several hours searching. A certain "Z wax" product range says it uses Montan Oil in it's formula. But if you do a search on montan oil you only seem to find people selling "Z wax" products and their offical ingredient list, no mention of the origin of montan oil.

However they do describe it like this: 
"Montan oil is a natural solvent derived from the sap of the German Coal Black Evergreen tree. The oil is removed from the sap, spun and distilled to make the Carnauba spreadable."

Can't find any information on a tree called the "German Coal Black Evergreen", but Montan Wax (wax as opposed to oil) comes from a German coal that is fossilised trees, also called Lignite.

I had given up finding a answer to the above but I was researching mineral oil and reading about it on wikipedia, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mineral_oil , and in the list of other names for mineral oil, there is lignite oil. And also in this list is paraffin and baby oil.

So is montan oil (especially as described above) just a fancy/marketing hype name for one of these mineral oils or is the German Coal Black Evergreen so rare and unusual that this is the reason for the cost of the "Z wax" products?

Dom, if you know, put me out of my misery please.


----------



## PhillipM

rubbishboy said:


> Your welcome to try it mate, but I'd like to refine my recipe a bit first though. :thumb:


Well, the offer stands if you want a seperate opinion, :thumb:


----------



## Dodo Factory

rubbishboy said:


> So is montan oil (especially as described above) just a fancy/marketing hype name for one of these mineral oils or is the German Coal Black Evergreen so rare and unusual that this is the reason for the cost of the "Z wax" products?
> 
> Dom, if you know, put me out of my misery please.


You have done well, young padowan 

Suffice to say, montan WAX is a very useful ingredient, derived from fossilised trees rather than living ones.

I don't know much about montan OIL myself, unless it is like a lot of other coal oils and a derivative of montan wax (please excuse my ignorance) but as it comes from the sap of a living tree, it must be something quite different and very special. In fact, I would love to start growing them on Dodo Island, should the climate be hospitable.

It must be coincidence that these special evergreen trees are coal black in colour as well. I mean, coal is black, and trees are generally green.

Therefore, the wax manufacturer in question must have the most amazing suppliers and I take my hat off to them for procuring such rare and impressive ingredients.


----------



## PhillipM

My sarcasm detector exploded.


----------



## Glossmax

PhillipM said:


> My sarcasm detector exploded.


:lol: :lol: :lol:

Z***** you little toe rags


----------



## Dodo Factory

PhillipM said:


> My sarcasm detector exploded.


I tried my best. You needed a new one anyway.


----------



## rubbishboy

Dodo Factory said:


> Therefore, the wax manufacturer in question must have the most amazing suppliers and I take my hat off to them for procuring such rare and impressive ingredients.


:lol:

ooh and don't forget expensive!


----------



## PhillipM

Dodo Factory said:


> I tried my best. You needed a new one anyway.


I'll get one in an evergreen coalwood box.


----------



## Dodo Factory

ROTFLMAO :lol:


----------



## rubbishboy

PhillipM said:


> I'll get one in an evergreen coalwood box.


:lol:


----------



## charger17

Montan wax is a favourite ingredient with many of the major polish manufacturers. There are other man made waxes that mimic carnauba and Montan wax is a good example. They have many different melt points so that the formulator has more choices. Some give more gloss. Some last longer. Some are better for marble/granite floors, etc. (they resist scuffing from black shoes better than carnauba for example). But, carnauba is the standard for auto polish just because it has been used for so many years.
Take a look at the formulas on the Dow Corning site to get some idea of the amount of possible ingredients you could use in your wax, and these are just from one supplier
http://www.dowcorning.com/content/chem/chemauto/default.asp


----------



## PootleFlump

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montan_wax


----------



## rubbishboy

PootleFlump said:


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montan_wax


Just to clarify, Montan *WAX* is known about, loads of info, easy to source (I already have some). Montan *OIL* is the ultra rare ingredient that comes from the sap of "German Black Coal Evergreen" trees, that only a certain manufacturer seems to know about and which I am thinking is just baby oil.


----------



## PootleFlump

rubbishboy said:


> Just to clarify, Montan *WAX* is known about, loads of info, easy to source (I already have some). Montan *OIL* is the ultra rare ingredient that comes from the sap of "German Black Coal Evergreen" trees, that only a certain manufacturer seems to know about and which I am thinking is just baby oil.


Montan Oil, sounds like BS to me. Marketting men at their best, plenty of that where detailing products come in. Maybe Tesco should turn their hand to some products probably be as good as the best and a fraction of the price.


----------



## rubbishboy

charger17 said:


> Take a look at the formulas on the Dow Corning site to get some idea of the amount of possible ingredients you could use in your wax, and these are just from one supplier
> http://www.dowcorning.com/content/chem/chemauto/default.asp


 :thumb: I have spent a good few hours looking over that site, there's some good stuff there, should have looked at it sooner. Doh!

What did surprise me is how much water is used in those formula's. In my emulsions I have been hovering around 40 to 50% water trying to use as little as possible really, in one of their recipes for an "Emulsion Hard Wax" they use 72% water and 20% solvent.

I am inspired to try and make something using silicones now, maybe a quick detailer!


----------



## charger17

rubbishboy said:


> :thumb: I have spent a good few hours looking over that site, there's some good stuff there, should have looked at it sooner. Doh!
> 
> What did surprise me is how much water is used in those formula's. In my emulsions I have been hovering around 40 to 50% water trying to use as little as possible really, in one of their recipes for an "Emulsion Hard Wax" they use 72% water and 20% solvent.
> 
> I am inspired to try and make something using silicones now, maybe a quick detailer!


I thought that would give you a better idea of the different ways that you can formulate a wax. Quick detailers are incredibly easy to make, but don't restrict your use of silicones to just this. You'll find that adding the right silicones to your wax will improve ease of application/removal, increase shine and improve durability. Carnauba on its own really isn't that good an ingredient. We make a paste wax that is 100% carnauba, it's easy to use, shines well and lasts a good 6 - 12 months, but it's the silicone polymers that are added to the formula that give the product most of these attributes.


----------



## rubbishboy

charger17 said:


> We make a paste wax that is 100% carnauba, it's easy to use, shines well and lasts a good 6 - 12 months, but it's the silicone polymers that are added to the formula that give the product most of these attributes.


Would you say then, that the majority of commercial waxes use some form of silicone?

I bought some Dimethylsiloxane 200/350cps last week but haven't tried it yet, looking at the Dow Corning formula's there are several different types used, any idea what properties this particular silicone would impart in the wax?


----------



## br3n

charger17 said:


> I thought that would give you a better idea of the different ways that you can formulate a wax. Quick detailers are incredibly easy to make, but don't restrict your use of silicones to just this. You'll find that adding the right silicones to your wax will improve ease of application/removal, increase shine and improve durability. Carnauba on its own really isn't that good an ingredient. We make a paste wax that is 100% carnauba, it's easy to use, shines well and lasts a good 6 - 12 months, but it's the silicone polymers that are added to the formula that give the product most of these attributes.


Forgive my ignorance, How does that remain 100% then if you're adding to it?


----------



## Dodo Factory

charger17 said:


> Carnauba on its own really isn't that good an ingredient. We make a paste wax that is 100% carnauba, it's easy to use, shines well and lasts a good 6 - 12 months, but it's the silicone polymers that are added to the formula that give the product most of these attributes.


Good point re the carnauba vs silicone, I have stated this on DW quite a few times whilst commenting on the 'carnauba myth' - but when you say 100% carnauba you mean 100% of WAX content, not overall content. It is worth stating the fact as it is exactly the kind of comment by someone as knowledgable as yourself that gets taken out of context and then we end up with that 'my wax is 100% pure carnauba and nothing else' b0llocks to contend with :wall: 

And Ben, yes, silicones are in most commercial car waxes, including some that may surprise you. That said, the type of silicone you use (and how you use it) then becomes very important.


----------



## Dodo Factory

PS bren, i didn't mean you with the headbanging comment - I'd already written it. Shows how confusion reigns tho'


----------



## GateKiller

I have read this thread all the way through and I must give my congrats to RB for his efforts. This is quite an inspiring thread and makes me wanna buy some wax of my own and start experimenting!

I've interested to find out the results of any durability test you have done so far??? My trust Megs #16 lasts about 1-2 months when applied correctly, how has your home brew wax faired?

I'd also like to try a home brew quick detailer as I absolutely hate paying for the stuff.

Keep the good work coming 

GK


----------



## talisman

yer that would cool some home brew quick detailer, must be high in water content to start with.........not knocking the suppliers in any way but qd must be money for old rope!!!,must be far easier than wax to make..


----------



## rubbishboy

GateKiller said:


> I've interested to find out the results of any durability test you have done so far??? My trust Megs #16 lasts about 1-2 months when applied correctly, how has your home brew wax faired?


As of yet no durability tests have been done. I've got one of the waxes on my test panel out in the weather to see how it get's on, it's only been there about a week though.


----------



## GateKiller

rubbishboy said:


> As of yet no durability tests have been done. I've got one of the waxes on my test panel out in the weather to see how it get's on, it's only been there about a week though.


I'd be willing to test out a sample if you want and provide feedback? I'm also going to the car show "Trax" on the 2nd of September and could apply the wax for the show.

If your willing to send out a sample of your best batch so far, I will pay for postage and donation :thumb:

Cheers
GK


----------



## rubbishboy

GateKiller said:


> If your willing to send out a sample of your best batch so far, I will pay for postage and donation :thumb:


PhillipM seems keen to try a sample and I'm sure a few others too.

This is where I stand at the moment, DoDo Factory has a sample of it at the moment (or should have anyway!) to evaluate, once he has given me his opinion and depending on his opinion, we'll see about samples.

Rubbing it on my car is one thing, but someone else using it opens whole can of worms.


----------



## PhillipM

That's why I offered to use it on a knackered car, doesn't matter if the paintwork starts glowing green in the dark then, that and it's already been prepped to use as a sampling area for some other firms development products.


----------



## charger17

Dodo Factory said:


> Good point re the carnauba vs silicone, I have stated this on DW quite a few times whilst commenting on the 'carnauba myth' - but when you say 100% carnauba you mean 100% of WAX content, not overall content. It is worth stating the fact as it is exactly the kind of comment by someone as knowledgable as yourself that gets taken out of context and then we end up with that 'my wax is 100% pure carnauba and nothing else' b0llocks to contend with :wall:
> 
> And Ben, yes, silicones are in most commercial car waxes, including some that may surprise you. That said, the type of silicone you use (and how you use it) then becomes very important.


Sorry, I should have made that clear myself.  100% carnauba merely refers to the wax content that is then added to the other ingredients. It's worth pointing out that this part of the formula could be as little as maybe 3% of the overrall product, so remember that when trying to decide if it's worth paying big bucks for a tub of wax. As you've already found out, carnauba's not that expensive, but it can be difficult to formulate, so by diluting it with other waxes it becomes easier to mass produce. 
As far as silicones are concerned, different ones are used for different reasons. To give you an example, we produce a paint sealant that contains four different silicone polymers, two are used for durability, one to make the product easy to remove and one to give a great shine. My advice would be to call your supplier and ask for samples of silicones that have these characteristics, then it's just a case of working them into your formula until you have something you're happy with, good luck.


----------



## Eko

What a fantastic thread! 
I'll be very interested to see what this looks like when used on a car!


----------



## rubbishboy

Right I thought I would give the silicone a try, I tweaked my recipe and added some Dimethylsiloxane 200/350cps, removing some oils to make room for the silicone, leaving the carnauba content still fairly good at around 28% (of the total product). It's cooling at the moment, but we'll see what it's like in the morning.

In the mean time I did have a go at a quick detailer. A simple recipe, some dimethylsiloxane, some emulsifier and some hot water. Made into a concentrate and then diluted about 50:1 with cold water. How the hell do I test it though?

I sprayed it on to a wet panel and wiped it dry, it seemed to work like QD. I sprayed on to a dry panel, it seemed to work like QD. I sprayed some on a panel and then clayed the panel, it seemed to work like QD. Is it QD though?










I think I need a better emulsifier for this stuff too, notice how it's got a bit of a floater at the top!


----------



## Bence

Dodo Factory said:


> ...silicones are in most commercial car waxes, including some that may surprise you...


AFAIK the last "pure" Zymöl formulas were produced in the mid-to-late 80s. Since then they are using silicones in their formulae.


----------



## GateKiller

rubbishboy said:


>


Nice work... "If it walks like a duck and sound like a duck... it's a duck"!

It does look very cloudy rather than the near transparent QD available. What ratio's did you use to make the concentrate?

Cheers
GK


----------



## rubbishboy

GateKiller said:


> Nice work... "If it walks like a duck and sound like a duck... it's a duck"!


:lol: Except when it's a fish pretending to be a duck.



GateKiller said:


> It does look very cloudy rather than the near transparent QD available. What ratio's did you use to make the concentrate?
> 
> Cheers
> GK


I think that that's down to the emulsifier, it's a waxy product, works great for wax emulsions, but I think something better suited to this application is required. 3.3% emulsifier, 80% water, the rest PDMS.


----------



## GateKiller

So thats:

*Concentrate*
3.3% Emulsifier
80% Water
16.7% Polydimethylsiloxane

*Liquid*
1 Part Concentrate
50 Part Water

?

Sorry for all the questions but I'm very interested in making my own to save costs and that fact that when we buy off the shelf, we're mostly paying for water.

Cheers
GK


----------



## rubbishboy

Yep, that's what was in bottle one, bottle two has reduced water and about 5% Iso-Propyl Alcohol in the concentrate, just to see what effect that would have.

Also, find a better emulsifier, I think a different silicone would probably be better too, I noticed that some companies actually sell a silicone emulsion and you just need to add water and your other (if any) ingredients.


----------



## rubbishboy

There have been a couple of posts on other threads lately concerning the prices of waxes and one even suggesting that a high end wax would only cost a manufacturer £1 to make! So I thought I would just share some data with you all.

Here it is, HW0025, only six of these 25g pots exist. I have three and Dodo Factory have three, so it is at the moment a pretty exclusive wax.










It will always be a unique wax, different from commercial products. You may even be able to buy it one day and try it for yourself. However it has cost me.

I have spent in excess of £250 on ingredients, most of which have gone in the bin.

I have spent around £200 on equipment, including a catering quality tea urn that has been converted into a wax melter! Thermometers, scales, melting pots etc.

Then there is the energy used, gas and electricty.

Then there is the time, I have spent a lot of time on this. I haven't made a note of how much, but I would guess in excess for 120 hours, reading, researching, experimenting, posting on here , etc. In my day job, I bill my customers £35 per hour so if we said 120 hours @ £35 per hour that's £4200!

So to just get this far and have 6 little sample pots of useable wax, you can see it has cost me a lot.

Could I actually buy the ingredients to make a 250g pot of wax for a pound? Not a chance, could a big wax manfacturer? doubt it. But they also have to cover the costs of the people involved in developing the product and cover the costs of making the product, then design and producing packaging, then distribution etc, etc.

While it has cost me, it has been a lot fun, and I have learnt a huge amount about something I love using and I will never look at waxes in the same light again. There is also more more to come from it, as something very exciting is brewing. 

Oh and any one who wanted to see it on a car, I have put some pics up in the showroom. Sorry it's only the boot so far. Clicky


----------



## dhracer

Certainly food for thought, however if it was a commercial wax once you had the formula and it was popular you'd be selling thousands of pots a year. The equipment is re-usable and with experience you perhaps wouldn't be binning quite so much coming to a new formula.

So while £1 is unrealistic I can't see that figure being wildly outrageous (up to £10) for nearly everything but the stupidly expensive stuff where they sell so few pots that the R&D costs are a significant portion of the tub costs. And even then I would wager that they could (if they wanted) sell those waxes at significantly less cost to the consumer but with higher volumes and still profit - why don't they, because they all want to have a ladder of pricing of products that includes 1 or 2 "aspirational" waxes that very few people buy and makes people think the brand is more prestigious than another brand.

It seems very much like the audiophile market IMO, where more ££ seems to automatically mean better even though most peoples' hearing isn't that good in the first place :lol:


----------



## Ducky

Blimey I've only just seen this thread but it makes a fantastic read, hats off to RB for having a go and best of luck with the future...perhaps we'll be seeing it in a shop soon 

Also a hats off to Dodo for sharing information which has helped, it makes for great reading and this is one thread I'l be subscribing to!

:thumb:


----------



## Alex L

This is a fantastic thread (make it a sticky).

Did you ever find out about the Montan Oil?


----------



## rubbishboy

Alex L said:


> Did you ever find out about the Montan Oil?


No, never found a ********** answer for that, unfortunately.


----------



## GateKiller

That little pot look like something you could sell  So keep up the good work.

Cheers
GK

PS: I'm still very willing to test out the "special" wax on my own car


----------



## Dodo Factory

Sorry to have been so quiet on this thread for a while, but I have been pretty busy behind the scenes. Firstly, I have been evaluating RB's home made waxes and secondly, finding of a way that we can help bring them to market. After all, it's pretty cool in a Jim'll Fix It sort of way to help a fellow Detailing World member make his wax a reality. Wax Factor anyone? 

So, first things first. RB sent two waxes through. His first (or should I say 19th! attempt) and a more advanced formula (number 25).

- Number 19 was very similar in terms of performance to my first Coconut Oil wax. It wasn't very easy to apply, but went on quite nice and thickly, before drying nicely (a bit quicker than mine!) and then buffing off without smearing or leaving any residue. The shine was good and the limonene in the recipe seemed to degrease and prep the surface as it went on. Beading was acceptable but not very good; the beads were quite flat and shallow. The Dodo Juice test panel next to it saw markedly upright beads in comparison.

- Number 25 was far improved, and spread much more easily than the first sample on application. The beading was also much, much better, and only a fraction less than the Dodo Juice sample. The production wax would beat this product fairly easily in terms of application (goes on far more easily than any of the home made waxes), texture (soft waxes are harder to make than the hard ones), fragrance (limonene is a pleasant orange smell, but rather limited) and appearance (colourings can be added to production waxes), but would only beat RB's second attempt in terms of absolute performance by a narrower margin. Noticeable, perhaps. But narrow nonetheless.

So, RB has done extremely well. His first wax was on a par with mine (or even a fraction better  ) before the chemists got involved, and his second attempt is into the lower levels of their territory. Hats off again. I never donned a white coat to the same degree. The problem is... performance is improved exponentially and although RB's wax is 'close' to a production wax, how much further has it got to go - and can RB take it there?

Now here's the Dodo twist.

What we plan to do is to 'productionise' RB's wax, based on his formulas but using more advanced ingredients and techniques where we can. We will then run this as a limited edition against his 'pure' homegrown wax - so the gap between production and homebrew waxes can be seen and tested by all. The gap may be small; it may be large. We just don't know yet. And I'll give RB a year's supply of Dodo Juice is he beats our chemists, along with a job offer 

Does that sound like fun or what?


----------



## Glossmax

Cracking job RB, really well done :thumb: 

Mr DoDo, your a star for taking the time and effort over the last couple of weeks to help out RB. Testing and making it ready for production is just unbelievable. Top man


----------



## charger17

After talking to the chemists that make our product the overrall opinion is that even the most exclusive of waxes wouldn't cost more than £5 or £6 per tub. In fact the tub is more than likely going to cost more than whats put in it. 
As for the Montan oil, no one I know has heard of it, so it's probably just montan wax but they want it to sound a little more exotic, the same way they say that their products contain banana oil or orange oil rather than say that they contain solvents. 
Having said that, lifes about making money, so if you could make something for £5 and then sell it for £1500, you'd be crazy not too, right?


----------



## rubbishboy

I think Dom sits there safe, in the knowledge that I have just about gone as far as I can with the ingredients, equipment and processes available to me.


----------



## rubbishboy

charger17 said:


> After talking to the chemists that make our product the overrall opinion is that even the most exclusive of waxes wouldn't cost more than £5 or £6 per tub. In fact the tub is more than likely going to cost more than whats put in it.
> As for the Montan oil, no one I know has heard of it, so it's probably just montan wax but they want it to sound a little more exotic, the same way they say that their products contain banana oil or orange oil rather than say that they contain solvents.
> Having said that, lifes about making money, so if you could make something for £5 and then sell it for £1500, you'd be crazy not too, right?


I think what I was trying to get across was that there is more to it than just the raw materials, and that the research and development of a product has to be paid for.


----------



## bigsyd

well thats the best 1hr reading for a long time :thumb:


----------



## Dodo Factory

charger17 said:


> After talking to the chemists that make our product the overrall opinion is that even the most exclusive of waxes wouldn't cost more than £5 or £6 per tub. In fact the tub is more than likely going to cost more than whats put in it.
> As for the Montan oil, no one I know has heard of it, so it's probably just montan wax but they want it to sound a little more exotic, the same way they say that their products contain banana oil or orange oil rather than say that they contain solvents.
> Having said that, lifes about making money, so if you could make something for £5 and then sell it for £1500, you'd be crazy not too, right?


Once above a certain price point, say approx 50 GBP, you get away from the raw materials and are paying for:

- packaging
- exclusivity
- marketing

That's why Rolexes sell for 2k a time, yet they only have 3.46 GBP of metal and glass in them 

Also, look at the economics. At 5-6 GBP per tub in terms of raw materials, this is a small cost compared to any research and development outlay, direct manufacturing costs, packaging, marketing, distribution etc. If these come to 10k and the product has a very small market (like Royale or whatever) and you plan on selling 10 a year, these costs are much higher per unit at 1k. If you sell 10k units because it's a volume wax like Carbon, then the cost comes down to 1 GBP per unit.

Is it a Swatch you're buying or a Rolex? Does the Rolex give increased performance or just the perception of exclusivity and desirability? Do people care or just like laying out lots of money on fancy stuff?


----------



## GateKiller

Wow, it's been a good few weeks since an update and I was wondering how you were getting on with the new wax and your joint venture with Dodo?

Still interested if there are any samples available as I'm keep to give you feedback 

Also, what do you plan on calling your wax????

Look forward to hearing from ya
GK


----------



## Jakedoodles

What an awesome thread! I missed this somehow. Have just read the whole thing. Dom, you're a top man! 

(p.s - I'm still interested in what we've talked about in PM's)


----------



## rubbishboy

Okay here's a quick update, I'll post a bit more later on.

My handmade wax will be called Rubbish Boy's Original Edition. Should be available really soon.

Here's a taster on a car on top of Dodo Pre wax cleanser.


----------



## garfie_1999

rubbishboy said:


> Rubbish Boy's Original Edition


rough price?

and how close to your original is it


----------



## PhillipM

So you didn't go for "Rubbish Wax" then?
:lol:


----------



## beardboy

That pic posted looks top notch. :thumb:

I'm going to order some Dodo Lime Prime and also (dependant on cost) some Rubbish Wax :lol:


----------



## garfie_1999

i guess it will always be "Rubbish Wax" on here.


----------



## PhillipM

Oooops, sorry RubbishBoy, think I started something :lol:


----------



## Slick 77

rubbishboy said:


> Okay here's a quick update, I'll post a bit more later on.
> 
> My handmade wax will be called Rubbish Boy's Original Edition. Should be available really soon.
> 
> Here's a taster on a car on top of Dodo Pre wax cleanser.


finish looks good and nice site too :thumb:


----------



## rubbishboy

garfie_1999 said:


> rough price?
> 
> and how close to your original is it


Original Edition is my original recipe that Dodo Juice evaluated, I have improved the texture, otherwise the recipe is the same. It is made by me a few jars at a time. It will be £39.95 for a 250ml jar, using same glass jars as the Dodo Juice waxes.

Juiced Edition is going to the Dodo Juice tweaked version. They are busy with the pre wax cleanser at the moment so no further information on this other than it will also be £39.95

The only thing I'm waiting on for the official release of Original Edition is the labels for the jars.


----------



## rubbishboy

PhillipM said:


> So you didn't go for "Rubbish Wax" then?
> :lol:


Ermm no, a catchy name none the less. :lol:


----------



## rubbishboy

beardboy said:


> That pic posted looks top notch. :thumb:
> 
> I'm going to order some Dodo Lime Prime and also (dependant on cost) some Rubbish Wax :lol:


Thanks. You should be able to order both together very soon.


----------



## rubbishboy

Slick 77 said:


> finish looks good and nice site too :thumb:


Thanks. :thumb:


----------



## beardboy

Cool :thumb: Look forward to ordering - are you going to accept PayPal orders?  I've not use Dodo wax before, so don't know how big the jar is, but does an applicator pad fit in nicely?


----------



## garfie_1999

ordering directly from u or through dodo stockists?


----------



## Epoch

Might be worth limiting the numbers and having a special jar knocked up.

Might be able to bump the price up a bit (like maybe £10K or so)

Well each pot is hand made, from a custom formula


----------



## garfie_1999

yes but what to call it then "rubbish boys astralis" only to be applied by starlight


----------



## PhillipM

And because it's handcrafted, it must contain special "Rare Amber Aromatic Effluence Oils painstakingly collected from the hands of a Master Craftsman"

I.E. - the oils off your skin.

:lol:


----------



## Dodo Factory

We are very much in the development stage of the Juiced Edition, so Ben's Original edition will be out there first for all to try - it's a great home-made wax, far better than I managed to create before getting my Marco Pierre Whites in lab coats to come up with something more appetising at my request.

Original edition will be available through Ben mostly, due to him manufacturing it himself in small batches. If we do gift packs of the two, then these will be available through our stockists and resellers. The Juiced edition will be available through the Dodo network, for sure.

All in all, the quiet before the storm... Ben has made a huge amount of progress since this thread was last active, and we have workd out a good way forward. Still dotting i's and crossing t's, but it is going ahead as we hoped. Bringing out a truly homemade wax, and its production counterpart, should be interesting and inspirational - at least that's the plan 

Thanks to everyone for their positive comments.


----------



## garfie_1999

and while we're about it is there a discount for DW members?

well you have to try :lol:


----------



## Dodo Factory

PS Love the astralis idea... maybe with a platinum ice cream scoop - gold spoons are so last millenium, darling


----------



## rubbishboy

beardboy said:


> Cool :thumb: Look forward to ordering - are you going to accept PayPal orders?  I've not use Dodo wax before, so don't know how big the jar is, but does an applicator pad fit in nicely?





garfie_1999 said:


> ordering directly from u or through dodo stockists?


I'll be selling the Original Edition and you'll only be able to buy from my site. The Juiced Edition will most likely be made available to all Dodo stockist's

I'm using Google Checkout on the site, but can do a paypal if needs be.

Does this help with the pot size?
http://www.carnaubawaxshop.co.uk/content/images/carnauba-wax-by-cloth-01.jpg


----------



## garfie_1999

no no no

platinum so passe darling

solid crystal to encourage production of and focus the rare mystic starlight sap.

can be bought in small quantities along with Carnuba Sap and Montan Evergreen Oil to be mixed with rocking horse s**t

:thumb: 

:lol: :lol:


----------



## rubbishboy

Epoch said:


> Might be worth limiting the numbers and having a special jar knocked up.
> 
> Might be able to bump the price up a bit (like maybe £10K or so)
> 
> Well each pot is hand made, from a custom formula


They will certainly be limited it takes me bl**dy hours just to make
a couple of jars.


----------



## garfie_1999

have you built up some stock for the initial rush

or is it order and wait?


----------



## rubbishboy

garfie_1999 said:


> have you built up some stock for the initial rush
> 
> or is it order and wait?


I haven't any stock at the moment, but will be making the initial production run this weekend, I also don't have any labels for the jars yet either so that will be the limiting factor on when they actually go on sale.


----------



## garfie_1999

quite willing to forgo the label for a first batch original


----------



## Epoch

Right ordered one, I'll wait for a label but could you mark the production number on it and sign it!!!

I like my marketing as you can tell.

If it's to me buy the 27 September i have a friend's Dark Blue BMW to do and i'll try it out on that.

Nice one mate, i suppose i'll have to get the comparrison version as well!


----------



## rubbishboy

Epoch said:


> Right ordered one, I'll wait for a label but could you mark the production number on it and sign it!!!
> 
> I like my marketing as you can tell.
> 
> If it's to me buy the 27 September i have a friend's Dark Blue BMW to do and i'll try it out on that.
> 
> Nice one mate, i suppose i'll have to get the comparrison version as well!


Nice one, thanks muchly. :thumb: I will indeed mark it for you and sign it. You are order number one so, I guess you had better get jar number one too.


----------



## PhillipM

Don't open it! Collectors edition :lol:


----------



## Epoch

rubbishboy said:


> Nice one, thanks muchly. :thumb: I will indeed mark it for you and sign it. You are order number one so, I guess you had better get jar number one too.


That's better than one of the 25 Zym0l Solaris pots (and I could also afford this one)

Thank you it, sadly, made me smile:thumb:


----------



## garfie_1999

rubbishboy you have pm


----------



## garfie_1999

ordered and paid m8

:thumb:


----------



## rubbishboy

garfie_1999 said:


> ordered and paid m8
> 
> :thumb:


Thanks very much.:thumb:


----------



## AdamA4avant

read this in full today and know have alot better idea how wax's are made and I have a hell of alot of respect for rubbishboy making his own and doing very good job of it. Rubbish Boys will this name be up there with the big boys!


----------



## Brazo

Thanks Rubbish Boy, received my sample today will let you know!

Lemon oil?


----------



## rubbishboy

Brazo said:


> Thanks Rubbish Boy, received my sample today will let you know!
> 
> Lemon oil?


Nearly, Orange oil.


----------



## Dodo Factory

It's called limonene, despite being Orange Oil, so you can see where the confusion comes from. Orangene would have been better - but that's what the French drink instead of Fanta


----------



## GateKiller

The orange is a very nice smell.... very unique  It was a joy to work with by hand but my write up will have to wait until this evening.

GK


----------



## rubbishboy

I am putting this post on to show a "Finished Product". A completion of the story if you like from the first post, where there was nothing but a bit of curiosity, to this post showing a wax in it's packaging ready for sending out.

Now I realise this is sailing quite close to the wind as far as spamming is concerned, maybe even crossing the line, but it can only be considered spam for a few days, as will become clear shortly.

I'm not saying it is the end of thread, as there is undoubtabley more to follow with myself and Dodo Juice's joint wax, but as far as Rubbish Boy's Original Edition is concerned, here it is:


----------



## Epoch

Nice, i can't wait to get mine now it certainly looks the part!


----------



## Bence

Ben, the packaging looks world class.

What solvent did you end up with?


----------



## dhracer

Hats off to you for following this all the way through to a product to sell :doublesho :thumb: (and I see/guess you're starting as a trader from looking at the website  )


----------



## Dodo Factory

Looking good, Ben! As you know, the Dodo/RB Juiced edition is in progress and it will be exciting to see the difference between them - whilst keeping carnauba and beeswax percentages the same


----------



## kk1966

Well done. This is one hell of an achievement/success story. It makes even more of an outstanding story when you click back to the very first post and then come back to this page.

I wish you every success:thumb:


----------



## rubbishboy

Bence said:


> Ben, the packaging looks world class.
> 
> What solvent did you end up with?


Thanks, I settled on Orange Oil/Limonene/Turpene as the solvent, it's quite slow to evaporate but does seem to control the carnauba a little better than the others I tried.


----------



## rubbishboy

Krystal-Kleen said:


> Well done. This is one hell of an achievement/success story. It makes even more of an outstanding story when you click back to the very first post and then come back to this page.
> 
> I wish you every success:thumb:


Cheers. Achievement, yes. Success story not yet, we'll see about that in a few months maybe.


----------



## rubbishboy

Epoch said:


> Nice, i can't wait to get mine now it certainly looks the part!


Your jar is the one on the right. So not only have you got jar number 1, signed, but it was also used for all the photos on the website. Now that's exclusive!


----------



## Epoch

I almost feel it will be a shame to open it, but trust me it's gonna get a testing.

Congrats on the completion of your first commercial wax production run Ben. A proud day for DW!


----------



## charger17

rubbishboy said:


> Thanks, I settled on Orange Oil/Limonene/Turpene as the solvent, it's quite slow to evaporate but does seem to control the carnauba a little better than the others I tried.


I think it's worth pointing out that the flashpoint of Limonene is much lower than the melting point of carnauba, so before anyone else tries copying Rubbishboys experiments, make sure you do your research rather than simply getting the ingredients mentioned in this thread and then heating them all up on your stove. No wax is worth burning your house down for.


----------



## Ducky

Packaging and logo really do look the mutts nuts mate! :thumb:


----------



## Neil_S

A serious achievement, well done!

PS When are you going to start on the synthetics :lol:


----------



## Slick 77

Great work :thumb: are you going to sell any small samples? as would be interested in trying some


----------



## Epoch

Well I applied some this mornng to the mule (test car for next 3 months). Review comming up, prob tomorrow now, but after i applied and buffed off some from a test panel (swirled, scratched and dull). It looked so good I got the clay, Rupes, Menzerna and HD Cleanse out and then re applied the RBO as it deserved to be put on a great base.


----------



## rubbishboy

Slick 77 said:


> Great work :thumb: are you going to sell any small samples? as would be interested in trying some


All the sample pots I made have been given out so at the moment there isn't any samples. I may do some more but it is going to be quite expensive to organise different labels, jars etc, unless I do them naked, which wouldn't look as good.

Something that did cross my mind, which would be less of an outlay for myself, would be to maybe have a DW communal jar available to members at regional meets or people have the jar and pass it on to the next and so on. I'm not sure if it would be workable or the finer points of how it would work, but it may work.


----------



## Dodo Factory

rubbishboy said:


> ...it is going to be quite expensive to organise different labels, jars etc, unless I do them naked, which wouldn't look as good.


Yikes! We label with our clothes on. I know you have a 'natural' philosophy, but that is going too far :lol:


----------



## PhillipM

That gave me bad images of his 'natural' ingredients :doublesho


----------



## rubbishboy

Don't worry, Mrs Rubbish Boy labels the jars!


----------



## DieselMDX

great thread enjoyed reading it


any chance of getting a pot in the US?


----------



## rubbishboy

DieselMDX said:


> great thread enjoyed reading it
> 
> any chance of getting a pot in the US?


Can't see why not, PM me if you want and I'll find out much the postage will be.


----------



## rubbishboy

Okay people, due to the large interest in samples of Original Edition, I have made some more sample pots. Unfortunately they aren't in the full livery, they won't be numbered & signed like the full sized jars, there are only a limited quantity of them, and I was (and still am) wearing clothes throughout the whole process. 

They are the same size pots as some of the other guys on here have tried and posted pictures of. Rather than start a list here, I have put them on my site so they can be ordered. :thumb:


----------



## Epoch

I have an intresting test section to show you Ben!

Royale, Vintage, Concours, Creme, Secret wax and RBOE all on a bonnet.

Pics and sheeting video soon


----------



## rubbishboy

Epoch said:


> I have an intresting test section to show you Ben!
> 
> Royale, Vintage, Concours, Creme, Secret wax and RBOE all on a bonnet.
> 
> Pics and sheeting video soon


Cool, that'll be interesting Jon. Just be gentle with me, I don't handle rejection well. :lol:


----------



## GateKiller

Epoch said:


> I have an intresting test section to show you Ben!
> 
> Royale, Vintage, Concours, Creme, Secret wax and RBOE all on a bonnet.
> 
> Pics and sheeting video soon


That would be very interesting to see


----------



## Glossmax

^^^ yes, yes show us


----------



## Epoch

It's in the wax section now guy's


----------



## Alan W

I don't know how I missed this Thread. :lol: What a read, all 22 pages!  

Respect to you Ben for what you've achieved in a very short space of time and well done to Dodo factory for assisting a potential competitor! :thumb: 

All the best for the future of Rubbish Boy waxes and the website store!

Alan W

P.S. Nice looking trial you've started there Jon. Look forward to the updates!


----------



## cvs04

*Rubbish boys/Dodo dudes*

What a brilliant read this thread has been! Really got to take my hat off to both RB for all the painstaking effort and Missus nagging mess that you must have gone through to get to this stage. As for Dodo well what can I say other than do you reckon Hans Anwander or Chuck Bennett would be so free with their info/recipies? I very much doubt it! Huge respect for you and all at Dodo for this and all the help you've given to make this work for RB.

Can't wait to try both products!!!


----------



## twhincup

after reading all the posts in this thread over some time, wondering "what the next stage will turn out like", "fair play to dodo", "this is looking good" etc etc for the last couple of months, I thought i'd show a bit of support and have ordered a sample off your site and paid through google shops :thumb:

next time i wax my black jeep i'll use yours post the results. :thumb:


----------



## rubbishboy

twhincup said:


> after reading all the posts in this thread over some time, wondering "what the next stage will turn out like", "fair play to dodo", "this is looking good" etc etc for the last couple of months, I thought i'd show a bit of support and have ordered a sample off your site and paid through google shops :thumb:
> 
> next time i wax my black jeep i'll use yours post the results. :thumb:


Thanks very much, I thought the name on the order sounded familiar, and now the penny drops. :thumb: It's on it's way.


----------



## Dodo Factory

Thanks for the support guys, shown to both Ben and the Dodo. I'm sure neither of us thought it would end in the launch of a commercial wax when the thread started. Hopefully, this thread will act as a bit of a wiki for anyone interested in making a homemade wax in the future.
All the best
DF


----------



## hypermarc

got my rb sample today.super quick.little time to spare tonight but tried it on the boot of my met blue(mid not dark) bmw z4 2007.just been clayed,polish and waxed with megs 3 stage.superb results , easy to use wonderful improvement in depth and shine.


----------



## rubbishboy

hypermarc said:


> got my rb sample today.super quick.little time to spare tonight but tried it on the boot of my met blue(mid not dark) bmw z4 2007.just been clayed,polish and waxed with megs 3 stage.superb results , easy to use wonderful improvement in depth and shine.


Thanks Marc, glad it arrived safely. Did you take any pictures?


----------



## Strokin04

I want a sample of this wax but, I wonder how much shipping will be to the US? Sounds like a real nice wax and also can't wait for Dodo to find a distributor in the US. I would like to have some RB and Dodo added to my arsenal of products.


----------



## rubbishboy

Strokin04 said:


> I want a sample of this wax but, I wonder how much shipping will be to the US? Sounds like a real nice wax and also can't wait for Dodo to find a distributor in the US. I would like to have some RB and Dodo added to my arsenal of products.


Thanks for the interest. :thumb: I'm more than happy to send to the US, only issue is the postage costs. The postage to the US on one of my sample pots is around £5, the postage cost for a full size jar or a dodo juice jar would be about £17 that's using "Royal Mail International Signed For" which they say takes about 5 days to arrive. If you're interested PM me and I'll work out an exact cost for you.


----------



## Strokin04

rubbishboy said:


> Thanks for the interest. :thumb: I'm more than happy to send to the US, only issue is the postage costs. The postage to the US on one of my sample pots is around £5, the postage cost for a full size jar or a dodo juice jar would be about £17 that's using "Royal Mail International Signed For" which they say takes about 5 days to arrive. If you're interested PM me and I'll work out an exact cost for you.


I will PM you but, first I need to get 10 posts so that I can. Thanks, Mike...


----------



## twhincup

*Rubbishboys tested*

Tested my sample out today, but didnt take any pics  as i was more interested in application.

Started of with a m/f cloth. got the top bit scraped up and on the cloth but found it difficult to apply as it seemed to need copious amounts of elbow grease 

So swapped over to hand application and this changed the ball game completely :thumb: I was apprehentious at first but once i got going I thoroughly enjoyed putting this on by hand. Once it goes down its relativeley easy to spread and get an even spread. I got the feeling this is going to be really durable as well. my only experience in hand application is natty's blue but this is far superior. i actually felt like i was putting something special on, especially being watched by a family member 

Left it for 10 mins, too early, 20 mins too early 30 mins still 'spready' so thought a bit to thick or humidty ?

Anyway, got some megs last touch out, spritzed it and it came up a dream:thumb: :thumb:

*one question though, would the qd haved wiped it all off or would it only take the residue off??*


----------



## twhincup

oh and btw, a little goes a very long way :thumb:


----------



## rubbishboy

twhincup said:


> Tested my sample out today, but didnt take any pics  as i was more interested in application.
> 
> Started of with a m/f cloth. got the top bit scraped up and on the cloth but found it difficult to apply as it seemed to need copious amounts of elbow grease
> 
> So swapped over to hand application and this changed the ball game completely :thumb: I was apprehentious at first but once i got going I thoroughly enjoyed putting this on by hand. Once it goes down its relativeley easy to spread and get an even spread. I got the feeling this is going to be really durable as well. my only experience in hand application is natty's blue but this is far superior. i actually felt like i was putting something special on, especially being watched by a family member
> 
> Left it for 10 mins, too early, 20 mins too early 30 mins still 'spready' so thought a bit to thick or humidty ?
> 
> Anyway, got some megs last touch out, spritzed it and it came up a dream:thumb: :thumb:
> 
> *one question though, would the qd haved wiped it all off or would it only take the residue off??*


Glad you enjoyed using it, how does it compare to other waxes in your collection?

Probably a bit thick if it was still "spready" after 30 mins, but then saying that it doesn't really haze over anyway. Thin as poss really, wipe off the excess and then give a good buff. You know when it's ready as it will wipe away in one or two wipes.

I think you'll be fine with the QD it won't have removed all the wax, probably even helped to set the wax a bit.


----------



## matrix_808

hey i went to your site rubbishboys and you dont ship to the US. would you make an acception? im really interested in trying a sample pot of your wax.


----------



## Karpfish24

Yes I would be interested in a sample pot too to the US. Please?


----------



## rubbishboy

matrix_808 said:


> hey i went to your site rubbishboys and you dont ship to the US. would you make an acception? im really interested in trying a sample pot of your wax.





Karpfish24 said:


> Yes I would be interested in a sample pot too to the US. Please?


Thanks for the interest guys. :thumb: My site doesn't offer anything other than uk delivery, but as said in a previous post, I am more than happy to send any product on the site to the US.

The total for a sample pot and postage to the US is £10.42, which at this mornings exchange rate is $21.24 that's using Royal Mail International Signed for postage, which should take 5 days.

If you're still interested either PM me or email me from my site.

Thanks


----------



## matrix_808

damn 21 bucks for a $10 sample  

i may have to just look into buying the full pot at that price. thanks for shipping to the US though. appreciate it.


----------



## PhillipM

Blame your economy :lol:


----------



## rubbishboy

After a little bit of research, I think I may be able to send some sample jars to the US a bit cheaper. How does £6.50 ($13.26) for a sample jar including postage sound? (That's only 50p more than UK!).


----------



## matrix_808

is that shipping just for one? i was telling my friend about your wax and he was interested in trying a sample as well. we were thinking about gettin 2-3.


----------



## rubbishboy

matrix_808 said:


> is that shipping just for one? i was telling my friend about your wax and he was interested in trying a sample as well. we were thinking about gettin 2-3.


That price was for just one, to send three is only about 30p in postage more than it is to send one.


----------



## Strokin04

Thank you for the sample of RBOE, RB!!! I was shocked on how fast it arrived and I was impressed with the added bonus of Dodo's Prime Lime. Thanks again, Mike...

p.s. I recommend buying from Rubbishboy, his shipping to the USA was cheap, fast and he has excellent customer service.


----------



## rubbishboy

Strokin04 said:


> Thank you for the sample of RBOE, RB!!! I was shocked on how fast it arrived and I was impressed with the added bonus of Dodo's Prime Lime. Thanks again, Mike...
> 
> p.s. I recommend buying from Rubbishboy, his shipping to the USA was cheap, fast and he has excellent customer service.


Wow, that was probably quicker than some people in the UK have been receiving their stuff, through the post.

Thanks for the feedback Mike, hope you enjoy using it. :thumb:


----------



## matrix_808

still didnt get mine.


----------



## rubbishboy

matrix_808 said:


> still didnt get mine.


Mmmm, yours was posted a couple of days before, on the 10th. It's most likely in the backlog of mail due to the UK postal strikes. Others have started to receive mail posted about that time, so I would guess it's on it's way.


----------



## PhillipM

I still haven't got UK mail post _last month_, so you may be unlucky!

Any eta on the juiced version of Rubbish wax ( :lol: ) yet?


----------



## Guest

What a fantastically interesting and informative read! :thumb:


----------



## Steelth

charger17 said:


> After talking to the chemists that make our product the overrall opinion is that even the most exclusive of waxes wouldn't cost more than £5 or £6 per tub. In fact the tub is more than likely going to cost more than whats put in it.
> As for the Montan oil, no one I know has heard of it, so it's probably just montan wax but they want it to sound a little more exotic, the same way they say that their products contain banana oil or orange oil rather than say that they contain solvents.
> Having said that, lifes about making money, so if you could make something for £5 and then sell it for £1500, you'd be crazy not too, right?


Try and find out how much White Carnauba is per lb and you have alot more than 5 or 6 £ there alone.


----------



## rubbishboy

PhillipM said:


> I still haven't got UK mail post _last month_, so you may be unlucky!
> 
> Any eta on the juiced version of Rubbish wax ( :lol: ) yet?


Not long Phillip, here's a sneaky peak for you.


----------



## PhillipM

Softer than yours then, and with a sneaky look at blue light levels in photoshop - perhaps some optical brightener in there?

Might just be the camera though.


----------



## rubbishboy

PhillipM said:


> Softer than yours then, and with a sneaky look at blue light levels in photoshop - perhaps some optical brightener in there?
> 
> Might just be the camera though.


Yep, softer, a bit like when you've softened mine a bit, a different texture to it though, more velvety??? perhaps.


----------



## Steelth

What silicone are you using if any?


----------



## PhillipM

rubbishboy said:


> Yep, softer, a bit like when you've softened mine a bit, a different texture to it though, more velvety??? perhaps.


Lanolin perhaps?

Or something similar?

Come on, lets play "Guess the extra ingredients" :speechles


----------



## 350gt

how big is the sample tub?


----------



## rubbishboy

Steelth said:


> What silicone are you using if any?


The actual Original Edition formula is not in this thread, and because of the direction this has ended up going, it won't be. But it's brothers and sisters formulae are all posted in the thread, including the solvents and the silicones I experimented with.


----------



## rubbishboy

350gt said:


> how big is the sample tub?


The samples have all gone for now as I have been able to find exactly the same jars, but they were 30ml jars and contained round about 25g of wax. I have found a nice looking 50ml jar which is an exact replica of the full size jar, in shiny black. So when I have got some of them and had a chance to make sure they are okay, I'll start doing a few more samples.


----------



## Dodo Factory

We will also be spreading the word about Ben's wax and doing some sampling of it alongside the Juiced Edition. The OE has become a bit of a classic quite quickly. I am still proud to have my 250ml jar staring back at me from my desk as I write this


----------



## hallett

wow just read the whole thread from the start what a read. all credit goes out to rubbishboys and dodo and i will be purchesing some of this within the next month:detailer::detailer:


----------



## virtual

Oh I'm getting both of these waxes!


----------



## bryansbestwax

Thanks for the info and enjoyable read, although I am not aiming for commercial success, I have come up with a respectable wax at this point due to this thread. Thanks Ben, I am sure I will have a few questions for ya.


----------



## rubbishboy

bryansbestwax said:


> Thanks for the info and enjoyable read, although I am not aiming for commercial success, I have come up with a respectable wax at this point due to this thread. Thanks Ben, I am sure I will have a few questions for ya.


Thanks Bryan, glad you got something out of it. :thumb:


----------



## griffin83

i have just sat an read all 27 pages and now my eyes hurt:doublesho

but i have to take my hat off to RB an dodo-truely inspirational.

will have to invest i feel

keep up the good work


----------



## bryansbestwax

If only you knew what you have started:buffer:


----------



## egon

Holy crap! I've just read all 27 pages and i must say that i'm speechless.
I am. Fantastically well done and massive respect to all involved in this!
I know its a couple of years old, but i now know about 800% more than i did and have nothing but utmost admiration for RB and DJ...
Did the wife ever cotton on about the pudding basins?


----------



## Ross

I have just read this too and its fantastic.I have always wanted to get OE and I think I will.


----------



## Nosbusa

It's a very good read. 

Plus it's fun when you start experimenting. You never know if or when you're going to come up with a workable product. 

I have a brew, that I made after reading this thread (some time ago) that rivals most of the commercial stuff I've purchased over the years and it's all homemade. 

All thanks to this thread.


----------



## po-low

Oh my gosh.

Ive just sat and read the whole thread (all 27 pages) :doublesho

I take my hat off to you.

To take it from a little experimentation to a final product must make you smile from ear to ear.

I just want to know what yor wife thinks now? Before she thought you were a bit of a mental looking at ingredients at Tesco's, next thing she's labelling the jars.

Thanks again to you and Dodo for an extremely informative read.


----------



## BangorGav

Hats off you to aswell mate, just starting to do this myself... How do i go about colouring a wax?? I've pretty much got a decent mix of wax, oils and solvents down, Colour is a thing for me as its just a personal wax 

thanks!


----------



## AJA_528i

Oh my god - this thread has had over 53,000 views. I'm gonna book a day off soon to read it :doublesho


----------



## Dodo Factory

BangorGav said:


> Hats off you to aswell mate, just starting to do this myself... How do i go about colouring a wax?? I've pretty much got a decent mix of wax, oils and solvents down, Colour is a thing for me as its just a personal wax
> 
> thanks!


Colouring waxes isn't so easy as they use oil based dyes rather than food colouring etc, which is water based. These tend to be oils or powders and are often extremely concentrated. Some of the dyes are needed in stronger concentrations and this can even affect the balance of the original recipe if you are not careful.

In our experiences, we have found some colours to be so strong they can transfer to hands and cloths a little too eagerly, whereas some are very mild. And some can be very unstable, ie they fade, oxidise a little (change colour in air, normally a darker shade) and merge with proximate wax of a lighter colour.

If giving it a go, use oil based colourants for typical waxes, and water based ones for wax emulsions (but wax emulsions are rarer in home brews due to the difficulty of emulsifying, so I guess oil based dyes will be your friend).


----------



## BangorGav

Thanks Dodo!! <3, Let you know if i end up with two coloured hands or a coloured wax!


----------



## Defined Reflections

Awesome thread! ive now got a shopping list to have a go myself,thanks for the info


----------



## voon

Fascinating thread! Read all of it and wonder, if I should try one of the most recent formulae in here at home - just for the fun of it. Carnauba, beeswax, orange oil etc is all available cheap on ebay and a metal bucket for a "bain marie" is available in any IKEA etc.... 

I'm just afraid, getting it real in the end is depending on things not mentioned ... how fast you heat, pauses, how fast you cool, if constant swirling is required at some point etc, there's too many possibilities there to try out  I can imagine there's quite a bit into kneading it whiel cooling etc. Also, if it's like making mayonaise, the oils should probably poured very slowly into the molten carnauba with constant, good stirring etc.

Also I wonder about the Silicones ... usually, I read lots about not to use anything silicone at all on a car, since after that, nothing will ever stick again unelss you get it all off?


----------



## rubbishboy

voon said:


> I'm just afraid, getting it real in the end is depending on things not mentioned ... how fast you heat, pauses, how fast you cool, if constant swirling is required at some point etc, there's too many possibilities there to try out  I can imagine there's quite a bit into kneading it whiel cooling etc. Also, if it's like making mayonaise, the oils should probably poured very slowly into the molten carnauba with constant, good stirring etc.


Exactly... There's a bit more to it than just melting and leaving it.  If you go steady on the carnauba then just a natural cool down will produce something usable. As you up the carnauba though it starts to get a bit more tricky as the ingredients tend to soldify at slightly different rates and drop out or leave you with a courser texture.

It's a case of experimenting and trying things, I've gone through several different cool down techniques and spent more time, effort and money on this aspect then anything else.


----------



## voon

Isn't that what all the emulgators are about? To manage connection between all the oils and the carnauba, due to diff cooling etc?

I still wonder, if even the best carnauba wax on the market is just reproducable and not as hard as it seems ... the problem just being HOW you do it


----------



## rubbishboy

voon said:


> Isn't that what all the emulgators are about? To manage connection between all the oils and the carnauba, due to diff cooling etc?


Emulsifier do you mean? Thats more for if your trying to combine immiscible ingredients such as oil/wax and water, or when making mayonaise.  A solvent, oil and wax blend can be done without.


----------



## voon

Ah yes ... emulsifier ... I used the german word (not a native english speaker, sorry). Yes, I also read about some of them binding wax/oil ... thought that sounded good. Most of all these components are the very same in all the dry skin creams and other cosmetics ... I found all components on a bio health care website  They'd look odd if I told them I'm about to smear it onto a car..... So, the solvent also makes sure, the wax and oils stay together? The read up is a bit confusing, because some substances seem to fulfill several roles.... 

I also read about a seemingly successful mix of many oils in small amounts each (Jojoba, Almonds, Ricinus, Macadamia, Linseed), turpentine oil, orange oil (limonene), cocoa butter, three kinds of emulsifiers (Tegomuls 90, Emulsan II, Fluidlecithine BE), carnauba and antiranz (against decay of some oils) .... a complicated mixture, that seems to work and requires some detailed working procedures. and produce something with 4-6 months of good coat - so they say.

I wonder about this compelxity ... maybe just the smell?


----------



## ITHAQVA

Hi guys,
I made my own wax a few years ago: Carnauba flakes
Beeswax, Coconut Oil.(Purchased Ingredients from EEEbay)

Looked ok at the start then it all when downhill from then on in 
It went very hard & I had to throw the pan away. missus wasnt impressed


----------



## Dodo Factory

LOL... the wax will come out of the pan with solvent. I would have destroyed a lot of pans if it didn't.

Texture isn't a problem - the wax still works. It's just harder to apply.

Homebrewing isn't for everyone. You can buy a wax that's technically better for a modest sum, and buying one is quicker and more convenient than making one. Homebrewing is more of a hobby for the curious...


----------



## Spoony

Dodo Factory said:


> LOL... the wax will come out of the pan with solvent. I would have destroyed a lot of pans if it didn't.
> 
> Texture isn't a problem - the wax still works. It's just harder to apply.
> 
> Homebrewing isn't for everyone. You can buy a wax that's technically better for a modest sum, and buying one is quicker and more convenient than making one. Homebrewing is more of a hobby for the curious...


I have images of the mrs thinking your cooking up a special treat for her making a nice dinner... instead its actually some wax on the hob!


----------



## Dodo Factory

Spoony said:


> I have images of the mrs thinking your cooking up a special treat for her making a nice dinner... instead its actually some wax on the hob!


That is basically what happened. She likes to tell people about it quite a lot!:lol::lol:


----------



## Thorpy

Dodo Factory said:


> Re websites and notes, most of the stuff I learned as I went along; it wasn't for a thesis so I didn't spend a lot of time cataloguing and documenting things. You would need to do some research into wax chemistry to get the answers you are asking for here... once I left it to the chemists I stepped back from the whole process. The library may help, but you could spend a lot of time reading and experimenting - you could probably get a pHD at the end of it. My wax chemists all have degrees, bunsen burners and white coats  It gets professional quite quickly.
> 
> Good luck with the project; just have realistic goals and a realistic budget. I spent well over a grand on materials and equipment to make my homemade but only half-decent wax. That's why I got the professionals in, as it would have taken much more time and money to get things up to anywhere near finished Dodo spec.


Well worth paying that grand out now though ey mate?  haha


----------



## ITHAQVA

Spoony said:


> I have images of the mrs thinking your cooking up a special treat for her making a nice dinner... instead its actually some wax on the hob!


And when she found out i wasnt & i had ruined the pan :devil:

Me - Exit stage left


----------



## Dan Clark

Just found this thread and read through all 29 pages!! What a fantastic and inspiring read, hats off to you RB and Dodo Juice.

This is the reality of presistence and determination to make your mark. Well done!


----------



## Ross

I have a pot of Ben's wax and it has to be one of my favorites:thumb:Ok its may take a little bit of getting used to with the application ect but the finish,beading and sheeting are outstanding.


----------



## galant fox

Just got inducted and read all of it plus the homemade wax of other thread, I'm a little bit confused, Overall how much grams of carnauba did you put in the finished product? To put it in another way, how many grams of carnauba was included for every kilo of finshed product? Or is that proprietary and too much to ask?


----------



## Leodhasach

Just read this from start to finish...phew! :thumb:


----------



## Ross

Leodhasach said:


> Just read this from start to finish...phew! :thumb:


I bought a tub of Ben's wax from you mate and I love it:thumb:


----------



## Leodhasach

Ross said:


> I bought a tub of Ben's wax from you mate and I love it:thumb:


I remember  Glad you like it.

I'm buying another jar of it at the moment...


----------



## Ross

There is a pic of the car wearing OE on my Facebook:thumb:


----------



## Leodhasach

Ross does pictures now?! :doublesho


----------



## Ross

Sure do mate.


----------



## Leemack

Great thread and doing this is not an easy task as I found out 4 years ago.

Been playing with the ingredients for a while now but it is bloody hard and expensive :lol:


----------



## Leemack

She'll kill me :lol:

Almost there with the new mix. Most of the early waxes i made would have been brilliant candles, that was the consistency I kept getting no matter what i tried :wall:

I have some cleaning to do


----------



## TubbyTwo

Just read the whole post. Fascinating!

Just one question tho I noticed earlier in the post a back of black wax pellets which got me thinking about coloured waxes. 

Would it be possible to make a black wax for black cars by using coloured wax? or does the colour come from chemicals?

Like a black boot wax for a car if that makes sense?


----------



## rubbishboy

TubbyTwo said:


> Just read the whole post. Fascinating!
> 
> Just one question tho I noticed earlier in the post a back of black wax pellets which got me thinking about coloured waxes.
> 
> Would it be possible to make a black wax for black cars by using coloured wax? or does the colour come from chemicals?
> 
> Like a black boot wax for a car if that makes sense?


The black montan wax is dirty horrible, stinky stuff  But yes, in theory, it would be adding a dark layer of wax to the paint.


----------



## TubbyTwo

fair enough, just curious really you see all these colour charged waxes and I jsut wondered weather its a colour wax to start with or colouring is added at some point during the process.

eitherway all rather interesting.


----------



## Jem

I've just read this thread from start to finish. Was interesting making wax on the Dodo Juice Product Training Day the other week. Hats off to Ben for sticking to it and huge respect to Dom for being so helpful and open through out.

*Very* tempted to have a go myself now!!


----------



## Dodo Factory

TubbyTwo said:


> fair enough, just curious really you see all these colour charged waxes and I jsut wondered weather its a colour wax to start with or colouring is added at some point during the process.
> 
> eitherway all rather interesting.


There are different 'tones' to certain ingredients you can play with, I suppose, but a usable wax recipe invariably ends up a muddy brown rather than black if you chuck a load of montan in it. The colours come from colourings added later. The effects of these are normally extremely subtle unless multiply layered with some kind of contrast visible. In general, any colour wax can be applied to any colour car without significant or undue adverse effect.

Our orginal experiments with colour and fragrance were to cover people's tastes and also to give a more prominent hue to the waxes we made from 'light', 'warm' and 'dark' ingredients, like coconut oil and white beeswax (light), orange oil and yellow beeswax (warm) and montan wax and dark beeswax (dark). But without extra colour these would have looked white, yellow and brown. Not that appealing.


----------



## Damm Rasmussen

*:-(*

Crap, as this detailing hobby wasn't expensive enough, now i have to buy all this homebrew stuff....


----------



## moosh

Damm Rasmussen said:


> Crap, as this detailing hobby wasn't expensive enough, now i have to buy all this homebrew stuff....


For £39.95 RRP and a full day of fun with a 24-48hr wait for the outcome its epic value! :thumb::wave:


----------



## Damm Rasmussen

well am not going to buy the dodo homebrewing, but gonna start somewhere around the first 4 pages of the post, and try to mix it all myself... ... But when danish reseller gets the homebrew kit i might try it out, and really have to try the DODO range in general.


----------



## JakeWhite

Wow after 31 pages of reading this is amazing! really glad it worked out in the end and has took your from something fun to do on a dull day, to producing your on wax with dodo! And yes credit to dodo to share the information where most would keep it to themselves :thumb: well done mate I might have to order the two!


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## Serapth

The missus has bought me the home brew kit for christmas so cant wait to have a play with that, however, this thread (and bouncers) is truely inspirational and i think i will be having a go myself in the new year.


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## Serapth

Ok i have ordered some carnuba flakes,beeswax pellets and some glass jars, as for the oil part im looking at turps oil but also considering pure almond oil and pine oil to get me started off.


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## Dodo Factory

Turpentine and linseed are better drying oils than almond oil and pine oil. I'd forget about them and concentrate on oils with better evaporation/drying characteristics


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## Serapth

Which linseed oil would i be better off with? Boiled or raw?


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## ZTChris

I haven't read the whole thread so forgive me if its a repeat..

Has anyone tried making their own Hybrid wax? I have some FK1000P and wondered if melting carnauba wax into it would work, with a little extra carrier/drying oil to keep it soft.


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## Dodo Factory

Hybrid refers to a natural wax and synthetic sealant mix. In reality most paste waxes and paste sealants are really 'hybrids', but the more natural ones get lumped into the wax category and the more synthetic ones into the sealant camp.

@ZTChris... FK1000P is a hybrid itself, so yes, it is possible to melt more carnauba into it but it would lose its texture perhaps and the ratios of synthetic to natural ingredients would change (it would become a bit more natural as a ratio).


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## ZTChris

Interesting. I was planning on using a layer of 1000P and topping it with Light fantastic for a more glossy look (bored with the cold sealant look this year..)


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## oklodhi

rubbishboy said:


> Right I thought I would give the silicone a try, I tweaked my recipe and added some Dimethylsiloxane 200/350cps, removing some oils to make room for the silicone, leaving the carnauba content still fairly good at around 28% (of the total product). It's cooling at the moment, but we'll see what it's like in the morning.
> 
> In the mean time I did have a go at a quick detailer. A simple recipe, some dimethylsiloxane, some emulsifier and some hot water. Made into a concentrate and then diluted about 50:1 with cold water. How the hell do I test it though?
> 
> I sprayed it on to a wet panel and wiped it dry, it seemed to work like QD. I sprayed on to a dry panel, it seemed to work like QD. I sprayed some on a panel and then clayed the panel, it seemed to work like QD. Is it QD though?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think I need a better emulsifier for this stuff too, notice how it's got a bit of a floater at the top!


I have read your thread with great interest.
For a newbie like me could you please give some simple ingredients
1. Emulsifier ..... I have not found not yet. still looking
2. dimethylsiloxane......this one word went straight over my head.

I was thinking if I mix Mothers Carnauba Wax in hot water , it might do the trick. What do you think ?


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## oklodhi

I can start with fine white powder and then add in further ingredients?

what i need to know is some common names for the ingredients.


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## oklodhi

Ben Gum said:


> Yes but there are dozens of white powders....! Emulsifiers.... there are thousands of them. Even if you find one, will it work or will it fail like the pics shown previously? If it manages to emulsify, will it manage to do so without actually washing away the silicones when the surface gets wet... I don't know, it just strikes me that this is an exercise in guesswork.


Yeah it is guesswork whenver you try something new especially in chemicals....but if one formula works we can try to replicate it.

does anyone of the easiest way to make detailer spray at home?


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## oklodhi

Ben Gum said:


> No it isn't! My family does chemistry and they very rarely try something new without knowing roughly what they are doing.
> 
> Why are you even bothering doing it with the basic oils? That's the hard way.


Detailer sprays are very expensive where i live . ****stan.....and dust is so much that you have to clean your car every day otherwise there is a white layer.......thinking of making a cheap detailer spray for daily use...


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## damianallen

I've been working on my own made wax and have come up with something pretty good from the test cars I've used it on so far  
Its a soft/medium wax with a potent cherry scent, gives a deep gloss to and I'm absolutly over the moon with it!!! This thread influenced a great deal so I'd like to thank you all for that


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## danwel

Just read this thread and it was a great read with an awesome outcome. Gonna try the original recipie suggested by dodo for something to do?

When you say coconut oil are we talking the sort of stuff you put in oil burners etc?


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## rtjc

danwel said:


> When you say coconut oil are we talking the sort of stuff you put in oil burners etc?


No, not coconut scented oil i don't think. Pure natural coconut oil. Can be bought online and even in some good supermarkets or natural food stores


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## danwel

Cheers, got the ingredients and followed the recepie in the second post by dodo and it came out fine. Just need to whack it on my daily for testing


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## cray54

I've been watching this thread for a few years and am ready to learn more. Thanks to everyone who has helped share knowledge thus far. Here are some questions I've had:

Drying oil: 
I'm familiar with drying oils as oils that polymerize primarily due to oxidation. "Turpentine Oil" is mentioned here as a drying oil, but all I can find is that Turpentine Oil is the same as "Gum Spirits of Turpentine" which I understand readily evaporates (does not normally polymerize). What benefits do polymerizing oils provide over a solvent that evaporates?

Emulsifier:
How much does the use of an emulsifier change the water resistance of the wax once dry and polished? I assume the emulsifier stays in the dried wax and can then help absorb water under the right circumstances. 

UV Protection:
I've had a very hard time finding good information here. Do either beeswax or Carnauba wax provide any usable UV protection?

Thanks, 
Chris


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## JamesCotton

Read through this, it's incredible how well Rubbish Boy has done.

What grade carnuba do people use? T3 is the only one affordable I can find


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## JamesCotton

Anyone answer this for me?


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## Ste T

T1, t3 are the cheapest but I would not use them. If you have 1 and 3 side by side you will see why. T1 is normally food grade the better quality


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## JamesCotton

Ste T said:


> T1, t3 are the cheapest but I would not use them. If you have 1 and 3 side by side you will see why. T1 is normally food grade the better quality


So you cant use T3 for making a wax? Damn :/ Looks like I wont be making my own wax as can't afford


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## Ste T

JamesCotton said:


> So you cant use T3 for making a wax? Damn :/ Looks like I wont be making my own wax as can't afford


I not saying don't use it, I just would not use it, and T1 is not that expensive, you need to look harder just Google searching won't help you, remember what your about to do it fine art.

If you think getting the nuba is hard at the right price wait until you start on the oils, and other items,


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## JamesCotton

Ste T said:


> I not saying don't use it, I just would not use it, and T1 is not that expensive, you need to look harder just Google searching won't help you, remember what your about to do it fine art.
> 
> If you think getting the nuba is hard at the right price wait until you start on the oils, and other items,


I was originally just going to use nuba, bees and coconut oil to begin with like Dom said to try on first page, how much nuba do you think I should buy to begin with? baring in mind im a student


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## Ste T

JamesCotton said:


> I was originally just going to use nuba, bees and coconut oil to begin with like Dom said to try on first page, how much nuba do you think I should buy to begin with? baring in mind im a student


1kg will be plenty :thumb:

Start small,


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## JamesCotton

Ste T said:


> 1kg will be plenty :thumb:
> 
> Start small,


found 500g of T1 for £25.48 :s thats the cheapest I can find....


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## Ste T

JamesCotton said:


> found 500g of T1 for £25.48 :s thats the cheapest I can find....


http://www.aromantic.co.uk/buy-carnauba-wax-flakes-uk.htm

More searching my friend.


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## JamesCotton

Thanks mate, but Sure that's grade 1?


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## Serapth

I buy from here. Might not be the cheapest but many wax manufacturers also shop here.
http://www.poth-hille.co.uk/products/carnauba-wax


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## muzzer

rubbishboy said:


> Thanks for that, very informative. Have you got any web-site links or notes from your research? Obviously temperature is critical, along with solvent, are these variations and effects documented anywhere?
> 
> I was actually thinking of the white one, it does smell a lot sweeter and there are some other smells there though. After the first smell of the coconut oil, I thought mmm, car wax!
> 
> Just for the record, I'm not being a pikey here  , I just like to know how things are made and work. And if I can have a go at something myself, I will.


Very much along the same lines as myself here, i wouldn't attempt to make my own wax but it was very informative as to how wax is made, in it's simplest terms.


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## percymon

Wow - what an epic read and some very interesting debate and insights into wax production. Whilst i have a cupboard full of Z and others I'm goinmg to have a pop at my own simple wax - something along the lines of the RB/Dodo formulae mentioned early in the thread.


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## jas11151990

Such a good read with tons of info


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## sprocketser

jas11151990 said:


> Such a good read with tons of info


+ 1 mate .


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## SON1C

epic thread
awesome products produced 








My review on rubbish boys original edition
http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=310975


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## sprocketser

Nice pic SONIC !


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## SON1C

edit+


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## Amateurdetailer

well its 3:45 AM and im just finished reading this post from start to finish and what a read it was! 

Very inspiring to see something come from just a simple case of curiosity to a "high street" product and a well deserved pat on the back to rubbishboy for sticking with it until he had something special and to Dom from DoDo for helping him along the way,truely inspiring!!

Recently as ive been reading more and more of these homebrew threads im becoming more and more intrigued to try it myself and through those threads the same answers popped up for newbies looking for advice on getting started....Read Rubbish boys thread and blimey where they right!

So great work and i will be ordering a tub of the original product to try aswell as having a go at my own experiments!! 

Grat read thanks guys

Amateur Detailer


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## D11PS

sprocketser said:


> + 1 mate .


Same... Amazing read


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## slimjim

That was a really good interesting read. 02.42 time for bed.


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## Rikbett

*Homebrew.*

Hey there I too have attempted to make my own homebrew wax with much research I have went for a basic method a couple of ingredients and overall I am happy with how my homebrew wax has came up. After my first attempt I seen this post and had to read it.

After Reading it I have learned a good amount from it.

So thanks for all the info and good to see you have got so far with your homebrew.

Thanks
Rik.


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## MikeK

Wow. 8 years and 33 pages later, what an interesting read. 

I doff my cyber hat to you.

Which product won by the way?

Or is the jury still out...


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## Brad-ST

What a read! Credit to everyone for the amount of knowledge shared, I think I may give it a go at some point!


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## tigerspill

Dodo Factory said:


> If you took a 30% carnauba wax and melted it down, it would become a hard wax when it solidifies, like P21S, even if a soft 'sorbet like' wax to begin with. So already you'd be fecking it up
> 
> Then if you added more and more carnauba to it, you would create something unworkable, unusable and pretty useless fairly quickly. Here's what 60% pure carnauba and 40% industrial grade solvent looks like:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Even by 35-40% the formulas start becoming untenable. The best advice is to buy some of these basic ingredients that I have mentioned above, and start fiddling. You will learn a lot about carnauba - why it is good, and why it isn't. You will also have much more respect for wax manufacturers as it ain't as easy as it all seems, but maybe less respect for their marketing guys when you start uncovering what is really in the waxes. And yes, a spectrum analysis machine does help if you want to get really stuck in


So what do manufacturers that use over 60% carnauba do? Are there tricks to get this high content?


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## Wilco

Its in the wording. 60% carnauba could be the percentage of the wax content but not the overall content of the product.


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## JayOW

70g Carnauba
10g Beeswax
20g Montan wax

If you made a wax with this wax content you can say its 70% Carnauba. Its all marketing, but for some people, its what they want to hear.


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## adjones

I suspect that the trades description people might disagree - if you sell a product as 70 percent, it needs to be 70 percent. Arguments like that are not far from fraud. On this basis you could dissolve a flake of carnauba in your tardis and sell it as 100 percent carnauba. 

Just another case of trying to fool the punters because there is nothing truly useful to say about a product.


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## cheekymonkey

adjones said:


> I suspect that the trades description people might disagree - if you sell a product as 70 percent, it needs to be 70 percent. Arguments like that are not far from fraud. On this basis you could dissolve a flake of carnauba in your tardis and sell it as 100 percent carnauba.
> 
> Just another case of trying to fool the punters because there is nothing truly useful to say about a product.


wrong
perfectly acceptable,When it comes to the wax content it is 70% carnauba. 
if the flake is the only wax content in your tardis then technically it is 100% nuba, although i dont see why you would do that.
On that note you do realise those that advertise as 100% nuba are not just nuba. they do contain other ingredients as well but the wax content is 100% nuba and no other wax


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