# What will be the Powertrain of choice for Performance cars in 20yrs



## Derekh929 (Aug 28, 2011)

As title 4 choices for you be interested to see results, also provide reasons why you think that selection would be good.


----------



## bigslippy (Sep 19, 2010)

you missed flatulence


----------



## Soul boy 68 (Sep 8, 2013)

Me being a petrol head I will stick with err, Petrol.


----------



## Derekh929 (Aug 28, 2011)

Soul boy 68 said:


> Me being a petrol head I will stick with err, Petrol.
> 
> View attachment 52044


This is more what options from manafacturers will be available:thumb:
Rather than what we would prefer


----------



## Soul boy 68 (Sep 8, 2013)

We know all manufactures will go all out electric, have no choice and that's what Jaguar Land Rover have confirmed also that they will be going all electric.
I'm still a Petrol head.


----------



## Derekh929 (Aug 28, 2011)

bigslippy said:


> you missed flatulence


I thought you still had the horse and carts in the Highlands not cars:lol:


----------



## Derekh929 (Aug 28, 2011)

Soul boy 68 said:


> We know all manufactures will go all out electric, have no choice and that's what Jaguar Land Rover have confirmed also that they will be going all electric.
> I'm still a Petrol head.
> 
> View attachment 52046


If you look closely at press releases they aint saying all electric but smaller power plants with electric motors to boost when needed and can drive all electric in towns at reduced power in low emission zones, that's my understanding


----------



## bigslippy (Sep 19, 2010)

Derekh929 said:


> I thought you still had the horse and carts in the Highlands not cars:lol:


313 horses in me torque monster


----------



## Soul boy 68 (Sep 8, 2013)

Derekh929 said:


> If you look closely at press releases they aint saying all electric but smaller power plants with electric motors to boost when needed and can drive all electric in towns at reduced power in low emission zones, that's my understanding


You're probably right Derek, I've not read the article and purely read the headlines.


----------



## Derekh929 (Aug 28, 2011)

Soul boy 68 said:


> You're probably right Derek, I've not read the article and purely read the headlines.
> 
> View attachment 52047


You sure I'm right? the wife keeps telling me I'm not always right:lol:


----------



## muzzer (Feb 13, 2011)

I can't see full electric being the way for all cars by then, hybrid's yes and whilst i know there will be more all electric cars byt that point, they will still be in the minority. Now if you said 40 yrs, then that's a different story altogether.


----------



## Fentum (May 1, 2017)

I really do hope it is petrol or some other similar combustible gas/liquid. I'd miss the sound of the supercharger whine on my I6 or the rumble of the V8 and V6 or even just thrashing the nuts off my I4. 

I know things need to change to appease the bunny huggers (even if the reality is that they are just moving the creation of pollution elsewhere) but who, in their heart of hearts, really wants to drive around in a souped up invalid carriage:wall:?

Peter


----------



## MagpieRH (May 27, 2014)

If they can get the technology and infrastructure right, hydrogen will be the one. Electric in the meantime will slowly take over from combustion as the tech improves and prices begin to come down.

Who knows, maybe someone will have a breakthrough with something we've not yet considered?


----------



## Derekh929 (Aug 28, 2011)

muzzer said:


> I can't see full electric being the way for all cars by then, hybrid's yes and whilst i know there will be more all electric cars byt that point, they will still be in the minority. Now if you said 40 yrs, then that's a different story altogether.


Yes totally agree i would all will have smaller capacity petrol engine with electric motor on each driving wheel, with option to run on reduced power in electric only in towns low emission zones.

Can't see all electric by then as you say


----------



## derbigofast (Dec 6, 2011)

Don't get me wrong you can't beat a 2 litre pinto with twin 40s but all electric full power and torque the instant you hit that (loud pedal) at any speed any revs sounds fantastic to me I'll just need a CD with good engine notes playing at full volume all the time


----------



## muzzer (Feb 13, 2011)

I'm the first to say i love the whole fully electric car idea and would have had a Leaf if my circumstance had been different and if i ever win the lottery, Porsche's Mission E looks fantastic


----------



## MagpieRH (May 27, 2014)

Come to think of it, the announcement recently was sales of all combustion engines will be banned by 2040, and campaigners said that was a bit of a nothing pledge by the government because the general thinking was we'd have moved on week before that anyway. That's just over 20 years away...


----------



## Radish293 (Mar 16, 2012)

Didn't think I'd like hybrid or electric. Drove a BMW X5 hybrid. My god it was quick from standstill but electric only lasted 20 miles. Even more impressive is the i3 I get to drive quite regularly. Acceleration is unbelievable. Put your foot down and it takes off. Even more impressive is the engine braking take your foot off and it slows real quick. It's looks aren't my taste but the the new i3s face lift looks much better. But at over £40k I won't be buying one any time soon. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Derekh929 (Aug 28, 2011)

Radish293 said:


> Didn't think I'd like hybrid or electric. Drove a BMW X5 hybrid. My god it was quick from standstill but electric only lasted 20 miles. Even more impressive is the i3 I get to drive quite regularly. Acceleration is unbelievable. Put your foot down and it takes off. Even more impressive is the engine braking take your foot off and it slows real quick. It's looks aren't my taste but the the new i3s face lift looks much better. But at over £40k I won't be buying one any time soon.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Have to agree I drove a couple of hybrids and did not like them i8 being one, and found out the hard way on the motor braking from while driving my relations in America Tesla S I give it max off the line then lifted fully off big mistake:lol:


----------



## donfresh (Feb 23, 2016)

electric cars do absolutely nothing for me. 
I like danger and explosions.. so if petrol will get scrapped in the future I hope hydrogen will take over


----------



## insanejim69 (Nov 13, 2011)

MagpieRH said:


> Come to think of it, the announcement recently was sales of all combustion engines will be banned by 2040, and campaigners said that was a bit of a nothing pledge by the government because the general thinking was we'd have moved on week before that anyway. That's just over 20 years away...


Just remember though the outlined plan is that the sale of new cars with a sole propulsion system with petrol or diesel will be outlawed from sale. Whereas a hybrid uses both fossil fuels and electric so by my understanding hybrids will still be allowed to be sold even after this date ??

James


----------



## Gorselea (Oct 28, 2015)

Petrol for me too. 

Need the noise and the smell!

TT Zero race is rubbish compared to the proper bikes. Never been to an electric car race but I'd hazard a guess it'd be a bit boring too


----------



## Taxboy (Aug 23, 2006)

Ultimately electric will be the future for car propulsion, especially if battery technology improves not just inside the vehicle but for storing commercial quantities of electricity. 

Currently there is a cultural issue where we have been brought up on internal combustion and the associated noise that goes with it to mark out special cars. For those currently being born they may well grow up in an era of increasing electric / hybrid sales which becomes the norm to them with electric supercars to lust over. Who knows in the future silence and speed may be the must have in the same way that we currently want aural stimulation to go with pace.

Sent from my SM-T800 using Tapatalk


----------



## NeilG40 (Jan 1, 2009)

donfresh said:


> electric cars do absolutely nothing for me.
> I like danger and explosions.. so if petrol will get scrapped in the future I hope hydrogen will take over


This makes no sense, hyrdogen cars are electric, they don't have an internal combustion engine that burns hydrogen.

That's why they make no sense for a passenger car, your using electricity to generate hydrogen which the car then turns back into electricity to power the motor. Plugging the car in on a night is easier than having to go fill up with hydrogen.


----------



## insanejim69 (Nov 13, 2011)

NeilG40 said:


> This makes no sense, hyrdogen cars are electric, they don't have an internal combustion engine that burns hydrogen.
> 
> That's why they make no sense for a passenger car, your using electricity to generate hydrogen which the car then turns back into electricity to power the motor. Plugging the car in on a night is easier than having to go fill up with hydrogen.


And if they are as unreliable as the awful Hydrogen buses we have here in Aberdeen god help everyone. A 10% on the road time and 90% off the road is not a good thing. Compared to an old oil burning 17 year old Volvo B10 that is almost bomb proof with a 96% on road time !!

James.


----------



## NeilG40 (Jan 1, 2009)

insanejim69 said:


> And if they are as unreliable as the awful Hydrogen buses we have here in Aberdeen god help everyone. A 10% on the road time and 90% off the road is not a good thing. Compared to an old oil burning 17 year old Volvo B10 that is almost bomb proof with a 96% on road time !!
> 
> James.


And don't go to fill up at the wrong time or you have a half hour wait while the system re-pressurises.


----------



## MagpieRH (May 27, 2014)

NeilG40 said:


> This makes no sense, hyrdogen cars are electric, they don't have an internal combustion engine that burns hydrogen.
> 
> That's why they make no sense for a passenger car, your using electricity to generate hydrogen which the car then turns back into electricity to power the motor. Plugging the car in on a night is easier than having to go fill up with hydrogen.


Perhaps, but a full tank of hydrogen offers an enormous range, where a full charge at the moment offers what? 400 miles at most? Then requires an extended period to fully charge.


----------



## Taxboy (Aug 23, 2006)

MagpieRH said:


> Perhaps, but a full tank of hydrogen offers an enormous range, where a full charge at the moment offers what? 400 miles at most? Then requires an extended period to fully charge.


But you are thinking in terms of current technology. An analogy might be low energy light bulbs, if you recall there was an enormous fuss when old style light bulbs were removed from the market with people hoarding them or moaning like crazy. The first low energy bulbs were not great to say the least with issues such as taking a while to warm up, not generating as much light, looking pretty awful etc.

Nowadays you don't hear too many complaints about them and people seem happier to run bulbs rated at 20 x less wattage as the technology improved

Sent from my SM-T800 using Tapatalk


----------



## DrEskimo (Jan 7, 2016)

Taxboy said:


> But you are thinking in terms of current technology. An analogy might be low energy light bulbs, if you recall there was an enormous fuss when old style light bulbs were removed from the market with people hoarding them or moaning like crazy. The first low energy bulbs were not great to say the least with issues such as taking a while to warm up, not generating as much light, looking pretty awful etc.
> 
> Nowadays you don't hear too many complaints about them and people seem happier to run bulbs rated at 20 x less wattage as the technology improved
> 
> Sent from my SM-T800 using Tapatalk


The first low energy bulbs were the CFL ones. They weren't that popular as it was effectively a chemical reaction which took time to happen before you got the full light. Most now use LED.

So in your analogy, if current li-ion batteries are CLF, then we need to wait for some other battery technology before it overcomes all its disadvantages. I've read so many articles about 'the next thing' in battery tech, from sodium solid state batteries, to graphene. None of these seem to have materialised into the mass market!

But I agree with the above about hydrogen...I really don't understand this status quo among some petrol heads that EV is rubbish, but hydrogen is a much better answer...I can only think it was that episode of Top Gear about 4yrs ago....


----------



## Derekh929 (Aug 28, 2011)

Well the results are not what i expected, but thanks for the input:thumb:


----------



## ollienoclue (Jan 30, 2017)

Hydrogen is utterly the worse substance in the world to have to do anything with.


----------



## insanejim69 (Nov 13, 2011)

ollienoclue said:


> Hydrogen is utterly the worse substance in the world to have to do anything with.


I know the hydrogen buses are a right pain to work on as regards anything, even simple things. You can't just "nip it into the workshop to change a tyre" . You have to take it into the ATF lane only ,as its the only lane fitted with hydrogen gas sensors and leak detectors, you have to put on the circulation fans, you then have to earth the bus via the integrated wall straps. Then power down the bus until its in idle mode. Then you can change a wheel. Wander what road cars would be like if it were like this, imagine getting a flat.

James.


----------



## shl-kelso (Dec 27, 2012)

I cannot see that hydrogen will ever be suitable for the average car - it's less efficient to produce (converting electricity to H, then back to electricity), it will take an enormous investement in infrastructure to produce in high volumes and to create the filing stations, is difficult to store, and has stringent safety requirements to work with safely. 

It might be useful in HGVs or similar where straight electric/batteries might not be suitable for a long while yet. 

But for cars (whether performance or not) then straight electric power trains with batteries are hard to beat. Try a test drive in a Tesla with Ludicrous Mode and you'll know what I mean! The Model S is hard to beat upto around 120mph. It's running gear is not particularly exotic, and battery costs will continue to reduce. 

I know it's not much of a comparison, but the Nissan Leaf has gone from 24kWh, to 30kWh, is currently going to be 40kWh (with a 50% increase in motor output), and will be available next year with 60kWh and a bigger motor again. And that is in a relatively affordable model rather than the £120k+ for a Tesla P100D with all the toys. If they do a Nismo version over here it might look the part too.


----------



## Jonny_R (Oct 23, 2012)

While were on the subject of electric.

Renault Zoe e- sport.....

Anyone seen the pictures and videos of it, only a concept i know but that thing looks crazy cool and quick


----------



## donfresh (Feb 23, 2016)

NeilG40 said:


> This makes no sense, hyrdogen cars are electric, they don't have an internal combustion engine that burns hydrogen.
> 
> That's why they make no sense for a passenger car, your using electricity to generate hydrogen which the car then turns back into electricity to power the motor. Plugging the car in on a night is easier than having to go fill up with hydrogen.


taken from wiki..

A hydrogen internal combustion engine vehicle (HICEV) is a type of hydrogen vehicle using an internal combustion engine.[1] Hydrogen internal combustion engine vehicles are different from hydrogen fuel cell vehicles (which use electrochemical conversion of hydrogen rather than combustion); the hydrogen internal combustion engine is simply a modified version of the traditional gasoline-powered internal combustion engine.[2]


----------



## NeilG40 (Jan 1, 2009)

donfresh said:


> taken from wiki..
> 
> A hydrogen internal combustion engine vehicle (HICEV) is a type of hydrogen vehicle using an internal combustion engine.[1] Hydrogen internal combustion engine vehicles are different from hydrogen fuel cell vehicles (which use electrochemical conversion of hydrogen rather than combustion); the hydrogen internal combustion engine is simply a modified version of the traditional gasoline-powered internal combustion engine.[2]


And quick search of wiki shows that hicev were only used in concept cars years ago. The current hydrogen cars are electric.


----------



## MagpieRH (May 27, 2014)

NeilG40 said:


> And quick search of wiki shows that hicev were only used in concept cars years ago. The current hydrogen cars are electric.


We are talking about 23 years' time here - technology could move on and HICEV may prove to be more appealing. Or, what we have now may be developed, or there may be another alternative by then. Who knows, we may all have gone back to horses (or been wiped out courtesy of one D Trump)


----------



## ollienoclue (Jan 30, 2017)

Choosing hydrogen as a medium to carry energy is not ideal because of the whole energy density issue.

The real problems begin when you have to obtain it. Using electricity to 'produce' it is highly inefficient, as was generating that electricity in the first place in some instances.

Choosing to carry hydrogen around in a fuel tank and then burn it in a conventional internal combustion engine which struggles to attain 40% fuel efficiency is just adding more egg to the pie really, no emissions, at least at the exhaust, is fine, but it's not a practical solution as far as I can see. I can see the benefit of fuel cells but I'm not sure how it would weigh against battery technology or vice versa.

As I understand it, the major issue with electric cars today is that the manufacturing capacity or supply chain for the batteries needed for millions of electric cars annually just does not exist. There might be 7 billion smart phones on the planet but that's just grams of lithium ion per unit, we are talking hundreds of kilos of the stuff per car.

Of course batteries will never 'need' to be as powerful as a car engine might be today- remember that electric motors can be very efficient at turning electricity into motion, and you can recover some of the energy back during braking, so there is a saving of sorts.

Our main consideration will be how we do away with technology that has been in use for hundred years or more, and had trillions of dollars of research thrown at it in that time. The UK consumed about 70 million tonnes of oil last year I think- over 800TWh of energy and our entire electrical grid only cranked out about 300TWh in that time. So the electricity industry in the UK would need to treble basically if we stopped using oil in a blink.

I think heavy vehicles and aircraft will probably continue to run on liquid fuels, how you obtain these and what they constitute however is open to question. You can create synthetic compounds containing hydrogen and carbon from a lot of raw materials if you have a source of heat on hand to do it with.


----------



## Nick-ST (Mar 4, 2013)

It will obviously end up electric or hydrogen powered BUT clearly that is not what we would all want. I can genuinely see me in a petrol/electric hybrid within 20 years. The technology used on the likes of the La Ferrari will clearly be brought down to the more affordable cars at some point. A hot hatch hybrid sounds very exciting to me!


----------



## ollienoclue (Jan 30, 2017)

Nick-ST said:


> It will obviously end up electric or hydrogen powered BUT clearly that is not what we would all want. I can genuinely see me in a petrol/electric hybrid within 20 years. The technology used on the likes of the La Ferrari will clearly be brought down to the more affordable cars at some point. A hot hatch hybrid sounds very exciting to me!


Will it though continue in the same vein though?

It is obvious that internal combustion technology has sort of reached a zenith. Of course there will be marginal percentage improvements to be had, but how much money will car makers throw at the technology given the apparent rise in interest in pure battery power?

An electric motor is an off the shelf item and already highly efficient. Battery tech will accelerate as the demand for them increases with car sales.

Take Volvo. They have decided that all their cars will be at least hybrid. That neatly avoids having to spend any more money developing your diesel or petrol engines, because the emissions become hugely lower per mile anyway. Does this mean that they will just eventually give up on anything running on fuel then? How do car makers decide which technology arm to invest in. For a niche maker like Volvo, they can afford to do as they like. For VAG or Ford, their sales are monstrous by comparison and they can't really afford to get it wrong. How much R & D do you throw at engines, how much at hybrid or electric drivetrains? What will the mass market consumer want?

All very interesting stuff.

I still maintain that the electric vehicle range issue is not a big deal breaker for 90% of the population today- the average mileage driven in the UK is a scant 8000 or 9000 today. Call it £500 of electricity on a 200 mile car costing £12 to charge up, barely half what it would cost for a petrol engined car that did 50mpg constantly.


----------



## Dunney (Jul 24, 2017)

Do we as petrolheads then become buzz-heads? I don't like change! &#55357;&#56861;


----------



## Fentum (May 1, 2017)

shl-kelso said:


> But for cars (whether performance or not) then straight electric power trains with batteries are hard to beat. Try a test drive in a Tesla with Ludicrous Mode and you'll know what I mean! The Model S is hard to beat upto around 120mph. It's running gear is not particularly exotic, and battery costs will continue to reduce.


I hear what you say but it is still just a very fast milk float:car:

Peter


----------

