# Special cleaning / 'nourishing' leather a no no!



## dannyson

According to my Toyota 'owners manual' - leather interior should only be cleaned using using a 'diluted water solution of approx. 5% neutral wool detergent'. No mention of leather enrichment etc, etc - and yet they sell leather cleaner in the dealership ..... so whats the best practice?


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## ianFRST

that is correct. just clean it, no need to feed leather. keeping it clean keeps it in good shape


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## steveo3002

yep all modern leather is coated ,any feed will sit on the top and do nothing


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## TOGWT

ianFRST said:


> that is correct. just clean it, no need to feed leather. keeping it clean keeps it in good shape


JudyB- you see they were listening


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## weekenddetailer

Depends on the leather and maintenance the seats have had in the passed. you may need to condition the leather if its very dry. There arent very many leather professionals who subscribe to the school of thought that 'leather does not need conditioning'.

In most cases of automotive leather though the PU coating will prevent any product being drawn into the hide and it's just the protective layer that will be conditioned / treated, but this is also not a bad thing. Keeping the top coat supple will prevent premature cracking.


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## judyb

Leather does not require 'conditioning' with anything other than water. If you speak to tanners the term 'conditioning' is used to describe the moisture content of the leather and that is what we are trying to deal with.

Keep your leather clean by protecting it with a leather protector and then regular cleaning. 
Adding 'conditioners' which generally contain oils and waxes will change the appearance of your leather over time as dirt will build up on the surface and cause a sheen.

Using the correct care methods and products will not alter the factory finish.

Your type of leather is 'coated' leather. This is essentially a 'painted' leather with a clear coat finish over the top. The leather may or may not be dyed through with aniline dyes prior to the finish coating.

Essentially it is this top coating that needs looking after. Cleaning is vitally important as the top coat will wear away if allowed to become dirty. Dirt on the surface will aslo become ground into the finish by constant abrassion.

'Conditioners', balms, feeds etc (traditionally oil and wax based) cannot penetrate this finish so are not worth applying - they can also leave behind residues on the finish which will only attract more dirt if allowed to remain.

A protector will make the finish easier to clean and also inhibit dye transfer etc on pale coloured leathers.

Leather however finished has to remain breathable and it will allow the movement of moisture back and forth (transpiration) so the use of water based cleaners and protectors will keep the leather correctly hydrated which is essentail to keeping it in good condition.

The routine for correct care should be 
Protect from new (Auto Ultra Protect)
Maintain with a regular clean or maintenance product (Auto Ultra Maintain)
Deep clean with a foam cleaner once or twice a year (Auto Ultra Foam)

This will prolong the life of the finish on the leather

You can download a free care leaflet here
http://www.lttleathercare.co.uk/freecarcareleaflet.asp

Hope this helps


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## weekenddetailer

judyb said:


> Leather does not require 'conditioning' with anything other than water. If you speak to tanners the term 'conditioning' is used to describe the moisture content of the leather and that is what we are trying to deal with.


But with the majority of care product manufacturers in clear disagreement with this belief, simply by selling a cleaner and a conditioner separately, as well as in complete contrast to what is taught at University of Cincinnati Leather Technology course, it would appear that there is more than one school of thought on this subject.


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## Xabby

Boxmark, one of the most important leather car manufacturers in the world, says that in its web:

_BOXMARK leather does not really need any special care. Remove dust with a soft, dry wool cloth with light, rotary motions or use a vacuum cleaner.

Light soiling is best removed by generally using a light soap solution which is gentle on the skin. Never use too much moisture. We recommend that leather is cleaned with the BOXMARK LEATHER CLEANING SYSTEM quarterly according to individual instructions. _

Never speak about the conditioners. People believe that conditioners are necessary then care product manufacturers make conditioners. People buy sponges to wash the cars and manufactures make sponges.....


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## Xabby

dannyson said:


> According to my Toyota 'owners manual' - leather interior should only be cleaned using using a 'diluted water solution of approx. 5% neutral wool detergent'. No mention of leather enrichment etc, etc - and yet they sell leather cleaner in the dealership ..... so whats the best practice?


Toyota gives you a good advice!


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## borinous

I use Milton (baby bottle sterlizing fluid) at a dilution of 1 capful to 400ml of water to clean my leather furniture at home and that brings it back to the condition it was in when new.


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## weekenddetailer

Xabby said:


> Toyota gives you a good advice!


Must be true then eh?


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## Dream Machines

judyb said:


> Leather does not require 'conditioning' with anything other than water. If you speak to tanners the term 'conditioning' is used to describe the moisture content of the leather and that is what we are trying to deal with.
> 
> Keep your leather clean by protecting it with a leather protector and then regular cleaning.
> Adding 'conditioners' which generally contain oils and waxes will change the appearance of your leather over time as dirt will build up on the surface and cause a sheen.
> 
> Using the correct care methods and products will not alter the factory finish.
> 
> Your type of leather is 'coated' leather. This is essentially a 'painted' leather with a clear coat finish over the top. The leather may or may not be dyed through with aniline dyes prior to the finish coating.
> 
> Essentially it is this top coating that needs looking after. Cleaning is vitally important as the top coat will wear away if allowed to become dirty. Dirt on the surface will aslo become ground into the finish by constant abrassion.
> 
> 'Conditioners', balms, feeds etc (traditionally oil and wax based) cannot penetrate this finish so are not worth applying - they can also leave behind residues on the finish which will only attract more dirt if allowed to remain.
> 
> A protector will make the finish easier to clean and also inhibit dye transfer etc on pale coloured leathers.
> 
> Leather however finished has to remain breathable and it will allow the movement of moisture back and forth (transpiration) so the use of water based cleaners and protectors will keep the leather correctly hydrated which is essentail to keeping it in good condition.
> 
> The routine for correct care should be
> Protect from new (Auto Ultra Protect)
> Maintain with a regular clean or maintenance product (Auto Ultra Maintain)
> Deep clean with a foam cleaner once or twice a year (Auto Ultra Foam)
> 
> This will prolong the life of the finish on the leather
> 
> You can download a free care leaflet here
> http://www.lttleathercare.co.uk/freecarcareleaflet.asp
> 
> Hope this helps


I would agree with you if it wasnt for the fact that in australia, these coated leather seats in the cars sold in this country of which I reside, will turn concrete hard in no time if not conditioned with something

have seen cars with this problem all the time.
red leather seats becoming pink too


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## weekenddetailer

Dream Machines said:


> I would agree with you if it wasnt for the fact that in australia, these coated leather seats in the cars sold in this country of which I reside, will turn concrete hard in no time if not conditioned with something
> 
> have seen cars with this problem all the time.
> red leather seats becoming pink too


At last someone who is taking climate into consideration. I spent time in southern Europe and now in the USA, both have extreme temperatures and require extreme hydration products.


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## Xabby

I live in southern Europe and I know very well the sun effects but the question is you can´t hydrate a coated leather because is not permeable. For example, I droped water in my seats and the water never penetrate the leather, even waiting two hours. It´s a simple test. If the water can´t permeate then no conditioner can do it. 

Red leather became pink if you park the car in direct sunlight during years. None conditioner can avoid that. They only make promises of protection against UV rays etc but this is only marketing. Car leather is dead leather, very different than our skin. The best is take care and keep the car far from the sun.


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## weekenddetailer

Conditioner will still keep the top coat supple, which in turn keeps the leather flexible and aesthetically in shape. Since the 'top coat' is what most people are referring to when talking about 'leather', a conditioning product is still required.


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## Xabby

Then, why BOXMARK, one of the world's leading leather manufacturers, that made leather seats upholstery for Buggati Special Edition, new Audi A8, Porsche Panamera or new S-Class for example says in its web:

_BOXMARK leather does not really need any special care. Remove dust with a soft, dry wool cloth with light, rotary motions or use a vacuum cleaner._

You can read that in www.boxmark.com (in "Services" : Leather Care") and never speak about conditioners etc. Maybe Boxmark is doing things wrong?. I don´t believe that.


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## weekenddetailer

do you have shares in this company?...

Dude, perhaps open you mind to the fact that 'other' companies tan their leather differently, use cheaper hides, top coats, etc and that boxmark isnt the 'only' supplier of leather in the world. boxmark provide leather for the top end market, unfortunately most of the world's population dont drive bugattis, R8's or panamera's. The leather that goes into a ford, bmw, etc is of an inferior quality and will require different products and care.


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## TOGWT

weekenddetailer said:


> At last someone who is taking climate into consideration. I spent time in southern Europe and now in the USA, both have extreme temperatures and require extreme hydration products.


* Infrared Radiation (UV-A) *

UV-A radiation represents part of the ultra violet solar spectrum (approximately 55%-60%). The remaining heat source comes from visible and ultra violet (UVA) light

Dependent upon interior colour at a 90.oF ambient; Interior (Light) 104 - 135.oF (Dark) 220 - 275.oF, 
Steering wheel - 160.oF - Dashboard 182.oF - Seats 165.oF (dependent upon colour, material and colour, actual results may vary depending on time in sun, make of car, size of windows and direction (sun Azimuth or angle) in which car is parked.

Heat alone will not cause photosynthesis (fading) this is due to UV-B radiation, although it will dry the resin (binder system) in paint; leading to oxidation. It will also dry out the oils and plasticizers in vinyl and other materials. It will dehydrate leather and may lead to structural damage (this is especially relevant to open top convertibles) 
Ultra violet penetration of auto glass; UV radiation is present in the sun's rays throughout the year in varying amounts. Ordinary auto window glass filters out about 97% of the UV-B radiation and about 37% of UV-A radiation.

*Ultra Violet Radiation Protection*

Providing protection from ultra violet radiation (UVR) is very important to avoid photo synthesis (colour fading) particularly in an open-air roadster/convertible (303™ Aerospace Protectant, pH 9.5) UVR protection is a sacrificial / renewable component; this is due to the UV protection layer being degraded by exposure to the elements (sun, sand, road or sea salt, and etc) No product on the market retains UV protection effectiveness more than 2-3 months; so it is imperative that you renew it and needs to be re-applied on a regular 45 to 60 day basis (dependent upon location climatic condition).


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## coopersworks

I like these threads. I am sure I learn something new every time I log on this site !


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## Xabby

weekenddetailer said:


> do you have shares in this company?...
> 
> Dude, perhaps open you mind to the fact that 'other' companies tan their leather differently, use cheaper hides, top coats, etc and that boxmark isnt the 'only' supplier of leather in the world. boxmark provide leather for the top end market, unfortunately most of the world's population dont drive bugattis, R8's or panamera's. The leather that goes into a ford, bmw, etc is of an inferior quality and will require different products and care.


Sorry, but Ford, Seat, Opel, Skoda, VW etc are customers of Boxmark. I don´t believe they are premium cars.


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## Serious

Xabby said:


> I live in southern Europe and I know very well the sun effects but the question is you can´t hydrate a coated leather because is not permeable. For example, I droped water in my seats and the water never penetrate the leather, even waiting two hours. It´s a simple test. If the water can´t permeate then no conditioner can do it.


if moisture cant get in, then how does it get out? ie . drying of the leather.


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## gt5500

Sorry I am so sick of these threads with JudyB hawking their wares and claiming they sell the only leather products in the whole wide world that will work, it's bs and nothing more. If leather is not permeable how comes if I put a conditioner on it which apparently does not soak in it dissapears withing minutes? hmm funny that. And also how comes my passenger seat which was rock hard and plasticky is softening up after I applied Croftgate leather cream to it, most importantly how comes LTT are just about the only people claiming that leather does not conditioning. Please don't give me a lecture on leather types either I am well aware of the different types and which type is used in cars, I know that PU coating is supposed to be impermeable but then so are waterproof jackets and many of the would stop oil soaking through. If people want to try conditioning their seats then I say go for it and report back afterwards, I expect you will be surprised to find a lot of people have success. And one final point, I thought oil based products would make my seats go shiny, well I have to say after the croftgate application they look more matte then ever.


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## judyb

Sorry you are so upset by my posts.

You do need to understand a little of the chemistry behind the manaufacture of leather to understand how to care for it. This is where we try to help. We are leather consultants and keep apace with the industry via our contact with suppliers, manufacturers, tanners etc.

The movement of moisture back and forth through leather is called transpiration. Leather and any coatings that are applied have to remain 'breathable' ie. allow this movement to happen. If this does not happen the product is not leather.

Products that appear to 'soak in' do not. The water element will either be taken up by the leather (through the transpiraton process) or evaporate and any other ingredients (oils, waxes) etc. will be left on the surface where they will give it a nice feel but will also be detrimental by attracting more dirt or reducing the adhesion of the finish.

I have just returned from the British School of Leather Technology at Northampton University where I met with Tanners, Leather Chemists and Leather Technologists as well as representatives from the cleaning industry. We toured the tannery and discussed testing methods for products as well as looking at leather specifications and finishes.

Here is a quote from The British School of Leather Technologists training manual:

[Leather types refers to how the leather has been finished ie. pigment coated, aniline style etc.]



> Adding water to leather during the retanning process is called conditioning
> No one cleaner is universally compatible with all leather types
> Damage caused by Leather Cleaners is not always immediately apparent
> Cleaners can change the performance of the finish which becomes more apparent with time and use (eg. colour change, cracking)
> Tiny cracks in the finish can allow grease and fatty material to penetrate the finish layer resulting in peeling of the finish and general soiling of the leather during use. Using conditioning products that contain oils and waxes will affect the adhesion properties of the pigment if used on cracked pigment
> Conditioning products (traditionally oil and wax based) should not be used on pigment coated leather as it can be detrimental to the finish
> Correctly formulated Protectors are beneficial to leather finishes


We do the footwork so that we can pass it on to you.

Hope this helps


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## gt5500

judyb said:


> Sorry you are so upset by my posts.
> 
> You do need to understand a little of the chemistry behind the manaufacture of leather to understand how to care for it. This is where we try to help. We are leather consultants and keep apace with the industry via our contact with suppliers, manufacturers, tanners etc.
> 
> The movement of moisture back and forth through leather is called transpiration. Leather and any coatings that are applied have to remain 'breathable' ie. allow this movement to happen. If this does not happen the product is not leather.
> 
> Products that appear to 'soak in' do not. The water element will either be taken up by the leather (through the transpiraton process) or evaporate and any other ingredients (oils, waxes) etc. will be left on the surface where they will give it a nice feel but will also be detrimental by attracting more dirt or reducing the adhesion of the finish.
> 
> I have just returned from the British School of Leather Technology at Northampton University where I met with Tanners, Leather Chemists and Leather Technologists as well as representatives from the cleaning industry. We toured the tannery and discussed testing methods for products as well as looking at leather specifications and finishes.
> 
> Here is a quote from The British School of Leather Technologists training manual:
> 
> [Leather types refers to how the leather has been finished ie. pigment coated, aniline style etc.]
> 
> We do the footwork so that we can pass it on to you.
> 
> Hope this helps


Yes I know I've read it all before, I am not sure why you seem to think you are the only people in the whole world that understand leather. I think your last sentance should read something like we do the footwork so we can scare everyone into buying our products, sorry it's not going to work on me. If these products are not being soaked up and are sitting on the surface then how comes a)my leather is more matte the before and b)how comes the surface does not feel oily or waxy to the touch. And as has been asked before if leather only needs water to moisturise it why do you not recommend just rubbing a damp cloth on the leather. No need to apologise, I can't help it if posts which use scare tactics to promote your own products annoy me, I just have a dislike for pushy marketing tactics. I thought it was about time some alternative opinions were expressed the forum is a little full of the LTT view, it seems I am not alone in daring to go against your opinion


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## Dr Leather

Dream Machines said:


> I would agree with you if it wasnt for the fact that in australia, these coated leather seats in the cars sold in this country of which I reside, will turn concrete hard in no time if not conditioned with something
> 
> have seen cars with this problem all the time.
> red leather seats becoming pink too


Having just got back from Brisbane after 8 years there, I agree with this statement. But when I tested it the internal car temps were over 95'C inside, and therefore the moisture will come out pretty quick. In leather there are two types of moisture - free and bound. Once the free moisture has gone the leather is down to 10% or under as a moisture content, and the fibres will start to physically stick together in the corium fibre matrix. The fatliquors used will do their best, but then as the bound water is driven off it's all downhill from that point forwards. So trying to keep the moisture content up is paramount. In addition the thermal dimensional stability of the leather comes in to question - i.e. whether it is chrome tanned or a chrome free system. Also the degree of staking the leather has ad, etc, etc. I could go on for hours.

There is an option though, but I'll be talking to the mods on here about some new stuff I know of - seeing a I've been making leather for 20 years. You can have dark coloured leather that stays as cool as white leather.

The fading is simply due to the lightfastness properties of the pigments and dyes used in the leather manufacturing business. Hate to say but bad lightfastness = cheap pigments/dyestuffs.

Rgds,

Darryl


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## Dr Leather

Serious said:


> if moisture cant get in, then how does it get out? ie . drying of the leather.


 From the flesh side is an option


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## Dr Leather

judyb said:


> Sorry you are so upset by my posts.
> 
> You do need to understand a little of the chemistry behind the manaufacture of leather to understand how to care for it. This is where we try to help. We are leather consultants and keep apace with the industry via our contact with suppliers, manufacturers, tanners etc.
> 
> The movement of moisture back and forth through leather is called transpiration. Leather and any coatings that are applied have to remain 'breathable' ie. allow this movement to happen. If this does not happen the product is not leather.
> 
> Products that appear to 'soak in' do not. The water element will either be taken up by the leather (through the transpiraton process) or evaporate and any other ingredients (oils, waxes) etc. will be left on the surface where they will give it a nice feel but will also be detrimental by attracting more dirt or reducing the adhesion of the finish.
> 
> I have just returned from the British School of Leather Technology at Northampton University where I met with Tanners, Leather Chemists and Leather Technologists as well as representatives from the cleaning industry. We toured the tannery and discussed testing methods for products as well as looking at leather specifications and finishes.
> 
> Here is a quote from The British School of Leather Technologists training manual:
> 
> [Leather types refers to how the leather has been finished ie. pigment coated, aniline style etc.]
> 
> We do the footwork so that we can pass it on to you.
> 
> Hope this helps


Oh - I have read this and in truth I am a little concerned - having graduated from the BSLT in the 90's, made high tech leathers for 20 years and holding an MBA in Leather Manufacture I think we need to clarify some of the wording here:

Virtually all retanning processes use water as an aqueous medium to penetrate and fix chemicals, but it is NOT called conditioning in that stage!!!!! Conditioning is the artificial control of moisture content after the leather had been dried and certain moisture contents are required for different operations in the staking and milling operations. I would hope you clarify that statement with the lovely Rachel Garwood or whoever you saw there. If they did say that then I would expect better from them.......

There are a multitude of PU and acrylic based polymers used in the coating of leather for automotive leathers. And yes most manufacturers have a different tech spec, etc, but in general there are a few generic products that work. The issue with real conditioners/leather foods are that they were designed years ago for old technology leathers, those that were likely to be veg tanned or have a fatliquor system that was not substantive to the fibre structure. Nowadays the fats are synthetic based to control heat migration and low fogging characteristics.

Also not all leathers are really breathable - that is also very dependant upon the retannage and finish used I'm afraid. Breathability is a very loose term, and instead should be quantified through moisture management scientific units. I can make leather completely unbreathable and it will still be leather. So again be cautious in what is said there. I think what you are trying to say is that the fibre structure of the leather needs to have a degree of water vapour absorption which will positively impact the moisture content of the leather and keep the unbound moisture levels up around the 16% level which is a good zone for most leathers.

Anyway I felt compelled to write. Knowledge is definitely a powerful thing, but understanding is required to apply that knowledge.

Rgds,

Darryl


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## judyb

Thank you for those comments - it is sometimes difficult to get over the points in a simplistic way for those with lesser knowledge of the processes.



> Virtually all retanning processes use water as an aqueous medium to penetrate and fix chemicals, but it is NOT called conditioning in that stage!!!!! Conditioning is the artificial control of moisture content after the leather had been dried and certain moisture contents are required for different operations in the staking and milling operations. I would hope you clarify that statement with the lovely Rachel Garwood or whoever you saw there. If they did say that then I would expect better from them.......


Apologies it is this stage that I was speaking of and it was Chris not Rachel that said it. I was trying to get across the point about 'conditioning' being the artificail control of moisture which you have described so well.



> I think what you are trying to say is that the fibre structure of the leather needs to have a degree of water vapour absorption which will positively impact the moisture content of the leather and keep the unbound moisture levels up around the 16% level which is a good zone for most leathers.


Again thanks for clarifying the point.

Cheers
Judyb


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## weekenddetailer

Xabby said:


> Sorry, but Ford, Seat, Opel, Skoda, VW etc are customers of Boxmark. I don´t believe they are premium cars.


I think you'll find that EAGLE OTTOWA supply most of the brands that you mentioned.


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## Dr Leather

weekenddetailer said:


> I think you'll find that EAGLE OTTOWA supply most of the brands that you mentioned.


A lot depends on specification and current price of the leather. It does move about and most brands have at least two preferred suppliers of materials, often many more.

Rgds,

Darryl


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## Xabby

weekenddetailer said:


> I think you'll find that EAGLE OTTOWA supply most of the brands that you mentioned.


Ok. If you read Eagle Ottawa web you can find a chapter of leather care with this advice.

_Automotive leather is typically finished with coatings which protect the surface from the sun's damaging rays as well making it resistant to soiling. The finishes used in automotive upholstery leather are unique - much different than furniture, garment or shoe leathers. Leather is extremely resilient and easy to clean and maintain.

Before cleaning leather upholstery, vacuum it to remove dust. To clean leather, simply use a clean, soft and lint-free cloth dampened with lukewarm water and mild soap. Use a gentle, circular motion - do not rub the leather or apply extreme pressure when cleaning.

Wipe the leather again with another clean, slightly damp cloth to remove soap residue. Dry with a soft cloth.

To maintain its resiliency, leather should be cleaned whenever it becomes soiled. Dust and dirt may harm leather if allowed to work into the finish. No words about conditioners to maintain the resiliency

Never use alcohol, cleaning solvents, oils, varnishes or polishes on your leather, and avoid using the following products as they damage the finish:

Any household cleaning products 
Solvents 
Rubber cleaners 
Vinyl cleaners 
Plastic cleaners _

Nothing about you need conditioners. They use the same words as Boxmark. Only clean.


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## WaxOnWaxOff

Can anyone recommend what to use on Audi Fine Nappa leather? I have tried Zymol Treat and found, as suggested on here, that it does tend to just sit on the surface even after buffing. A day or two of sitting on the seats and you can see where clothing has "dried" the finish i.e. basically taken the Zymol off again. I also find it makes the seats slippery, and I only used a little. 

One company says you need natural oils. The next says you don't. I'm not really in favour of using oils in light of that as they basically don't seem to work and grease can surely only hold dirt. Conversely water evaporates quickly so how can it provide any lasting effect? I've used 303 Aerospace Protectant, which is water based, natural, and seems to absorb reasonably though leaves a slight sheen which I don't really like, but less than the Zymol. However, I wanted some element of UV protection. 

While LTT have been slated here somewhat, and I've not tried their products, I have to wonder how much firms like Chemical Guys, Zymol, AutoGlym and all the rest that produce leather care products really know about leather. Aren't they just completing their range of products and hence lacking any specialisation/real knowledge as a result? Very few companies, LTT included it seems, actually say what's in their products - Liquid Leather for instance say nothing of what's in it.

Simple cleaning to just remove any dirt and keep the surface basically clean seems to be the way to go.


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## david_h

WaxOnWaxOff said:


> While LTT have been slated here somewhat, and I've not tried their products, I have to wonder how much firms like Chemical Guys, Zymol, AutoGlym and all the rest that produce leather care products really know about leather. Aren't they just completing their range of products and hence lacking any specialisation/real knowledge as a result? Very few companies, LTT included it seems, actually say what's in their products - Liquid Leather for instance say nothing of what's in it.
> 
> Simple cleaning to just remove any dirt and keep the surface basically clean seems to be the way to go.


On this point, I'd put money on it that Zymol, Raceglaze and Chemical Guys are all using re-branded Gliptone stuff. It looks and smells pretty much the same, I'll bet its franchised out by gliptone.

I know Gliptone franchise out their dyes to 3rd parties.


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## judyb

The protector we use is a water based fluorocarbon with added UV protection. This is by far the most effecitve way of protecting leather finishes which if then cleaned on a regular basis is all that is required. 
It leaves a breathable barrier against dirt and body oils.
Suppliers that state that you need to replace natural oils are certainly not leather specialists and provide products simply because they want to complete their detailing range. Most suppliers will rebrand a product and have no specialist knowledge at all about leather, its proterties or its correct maintenance. 303 whilst being a very good UV protector does nothing to guard against oils and dirt.

We started out as leather specialists and our product comes direct from source because we researched the market to find the best that was available - if we find a better one we would use that instead. 
Keeping leather clean is the key to long lasting finishes as it is the combination of dirt and abrassion that causes the finish to crack and deteriorate over time. Using a good protector on a regular basis will help to make the finish easier to keep clean and help protect against the effects of sliding in and out of your car seat.
Companies say you can 'condition' leather once the pigment has cracked but adding 'conditioners' will only lead to poorer adhesion and make the matter worse. Cracked pigment needs to be prevented and once it has happened needs replacing. Prevention is much cheaper than cure.

I hope this helps

Judyb


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## WaxOnWaxOff

david_h said:


> On this point, I'd put money on it that Zymol, Raceglaze and Chemical Guys are all using re-branded Gliptone stuff. It looks and smells pretty much the same, I'll bet its franchised out by gliptone.
> 
> I know Gliptone franchise out their dyes to 3rd parties.


Others may, but I've used Liquid Leather (Gliptone) and Zymol and they are very different liquids. Zymol list their ingredients for one, and you can smell the banana oil. Liquid Leather smells of... I don't know what, but it's not pleasant and it's not the smell of leather IMHO :lol:

Having been reading a bit about fluorocarbons, I'm not convinced that they are something that should be used in a confined space such as a car. Although most of the information I have found relates to particles entering the lungs, the lack of safety information about fluorocarbons on surfaces and their ability to become airborne through wear or other factors puts me off somewhat. I think I'd rather use something totally natural.


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## judyb

The way these are manufactured makes them totally safe, we would not sell something that was in any way dangerous. They are all REACH registered and if there was any question about them they would not be allowed to be sold. 
There is no 'natural' product that will protect your leather against wear and soiling in the same way. 
By the way banana oil is a solvent which definitely should not be used on a finished leather. It is in no way 'natural' and is only called banana oil becasue of its smell.


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## WaxOnWaxOff

Thanks. That's true...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isoamyl_acetate

Also I should remember that there is no definition of "natural" in any product, so it can be as much about marketing as anything. Frankly as a "consumer" (something I don't want to be really) I get tired of the constantly conflicting messages about products. Everyone says their product is the best thing for leather since sliced bread, and more often than not when I try them I don't see any real benefit. It's a bit like skin and hair products - who would have thought that so many plant extracts, substances and molecules could ALL turn out to be so beneficial to human tissues? :lol:

I've read stuff on other forums with people recommending Baby Oil of all things. :doublesho Absolutely crazy.

Back to LTT products then, what's in them besides fluorocarbons, and what do these and the other ingredients do to leather used in cars? I found the info on the web site rather lacking beyond the usual promises of being the best product.

Also, what's special/different about the Auto Ultra Maintain vs. Lazy Leather which is also suitable for car leather?


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## judyb

The protector protects the finish on the leather from damage by dirt, body oils and abrassion.
This is what the protector does on leather










it acts as a breathable, invisible barrier and therefore makes cleaning easier as well as helping with UV protection.

Auto Ultra Maintain and Lazy Leather are derived from similar base products but are formulated slightly differently. Auto leather has a stronger finish to domestic leather and so stronger products can be used for their cleaning and maintenance. We can recommend that the furniture prodcuts can also be used on auto leather but the Auto products should not be used on domestic furntiure as they may be too strong for some of the finishes that are now used on these, particularly two tone leathers and micro pigments.

Hope this helps


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## weekenddetailer

Xabby said:


> Nothing about you need conditioners. They use the same words as Boxmark. Only clean.


Let's just agree to disagree!


----------



## WaxOnWaxOff

judyb said:


> Auto Ultra Maintain and Lazy Leather are derived from similar base products but are formulated slightly differently. Auto leather has a stronger finish to domestic leather and so stronger products can be used for their cleaning and maintenance. We can recommend that the furniture prodcuts can also be used on auto leather but the Auto products should not be used on domestic furntiure as they may be too strong for some of the finishes that are now used on these, particularly two tone leathers and micro pigments.


Thanks for the info. If car leather is inherently clean then there's perhaps no real gain to be had by using the dedicated car product then?

I have matte leather. Could I expect any change in surface sheen? All products I have tried so far have added an undesirable sheen to the finish and/or made the seats slippery until the sheen wears off. I'd like to use something where when I'm finished, it doesn't look like I've done anything


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## Dr Leather

judyb said:


> The protector we use is a water based fluorocarbon with added UV protection. This is by far the most effecitve way of protecting leather finishes which if then cleaned on a regular basis is all that is required.
> 
> Judyb


FC based products are again a rather interesting kettle of fish. Essentially we all think of 3M Scotchgard (as it was), Teflon, etc as these are household FC names and mean non-stick. But once again we need to be cautious. FC based compounds are generally triadic in nature, in that they have three aspects of (i) water resistance, (ii) hydrocarbon repellence and (iii) soil release properties. And it is safe to say that if something is very oil resistant it does not necessarily mean it has a good soil release aspect. To cut a long story short FC technology does have very low surface energy properties, but they are weak in that constant pressure and rubbing can actually collapse the microscopic chains that need to be 'upright' in order to be at their optimum. Which means the effect can go away very quickly, especially in a topical aftermarket treatment without full reaction and activation taking place.

Now - there are two other, more cutting edge technologies, that are far more suitable. To be frank, FC's are so 1980's....... so in honesty I have to disagree in your belief that FC's are the best. Also your lovely photo of the with/without FC is all good, but just apply some pressure on the oil droplet that is beading on the FC surface - you'll soon push it straight in as FC's don't have terribly good penetration pressure resistance.

As for the comment on REACH....unfortunately it does not mean all REACH registered chemicals are safe (which in truth is too generic a term in my opinion). More pertinent is the MSDS information, and it is this that should be considered on a paramount basis. Anything that is applied airborne is always a concern, especially in a confined space.

As for UV protectors, again we need to be cautious. It depends on the reaction system used to achieve increased UV resistance.... for sometimes they are like a Trojan Horse, where they certainly help in one aspect, but can actually cause parallel and subsequent reactions.

Anyway interesting to read.

Regards,

Darryl
_________________________________________________________________________________
Darryl Cassingham
MBA (Leather Mgmt), HND Leather Technology, FSLTC, LCGI


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## judyb

> To cut a long story short FC technology does have very low surface energy properties, but they are weak in that constant pressure and rubbing can actually collapse the microscopic chains that need to be 'upright' in order to be at their optimum. Which means the effect can go away very quickly, especially in a topical aftermarket treatment without full reaction and activation taking place.


Yes I agree that FC protectors do need to be applied on a regular basis but as they are so easy to apply this is not a problem.

FC Protectors have been around for some time I agree. We have tried the new protectors and actually have one that has a 3 year guarantee with it but in terms of application they are harder to apply and so for consumer use the FC protectors are still the first choice. Guaranteed protectors need application at point of sale and this is something we are looking in to at present.

I understand what you are saying about REACH but at least there is legislation about what can and cannot be sold. I agree about the use of the word 'safe' as many people term their products as 'leather safe' which is far too wide a concept. We always teach that knowledge makes products 'leather safe'.



> Anything that is applied airborne is always a concern, especially in a confined space.


This is true and includes water. Products should always be applied with care and following safety guidelines.



> As for UV protectors, again we need to be cautious. It depends on the reaction system used to achieve increased UV resistance.... for sometimes they are like a Trojan Horse, where they certainly help in one aspect, but can actually cause parallel and subsequent reactions.


I agree but some protectors that are sold as UV protectors are seen as all round protectors which they are not.

Regards
Judyb


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## judyb

> I have matte leather. Could I expect any change in surface sheen? All products I have tried so far have added an undesirable sheen to the finish and/or made the seats slippery until the sheen wears off. I'd like to use something where when I'm finished, it doesn't look like I've done anything


The products will not alter the surface sheen at all. If the leather is matt it will remain matt and if it is glossy it will remain glossy.

Hope this helps

Judyb


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## Nanoman

I just want to say that I have found this a very informative post and I have found it very interesting seeing different 'experts' having a sensible discussion about it.

I'm impressed that JudyB didn't respond to the ill-mannered posts directed at her and LTT.

Also *boring fact alert* I believe a lot of the leather used in luxury cars comes from Bridge of Weir which is just over the fields from my house. 

Carry on...


----------



## gt5500

grantwils said:


> I'm impressed that JudyB didn't respond to the ill-mannered posts directed at her and LTT.


You may think them ill mannered but seriously there is not a leather care thread on the forum where JudyB has not stuck the oar in and claimed that all other products are dangerous and will damage your leather and then goes on to suggest we all use LTT products. It get's rather tiring when people are just after some good old un biased information, you don't see the Dodo guys going round recommending thier waxes on every wax thread, I am not sure why LTT have to. Judyb even hunts round on other forums where they are not authorised traders and then deters people from using competitors products, I can't abide such forcefull and shady marketing tactics.


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## WaxOnWaxOff

It could be that she just really believes in her products, and as a company that a lot of people haven't heard of, is getting the word out there beyond the usual recommendations you see on forums. ANd some people do seem to rate their products. However, I do have to say that while the replies are helpful they are perhaps a bit marketing-speak oriented and sometimes seem to miss the original question a bit.

Back on topic though, I'd be interested to know how Liquid Leather compares to LTT and other products from the standpoint of:
a) any other manufacturers who care to give detailed info;
b) anyone who's used them.

Personally I don't much like the smell of Liquid Leather - it doesn't smell like any leather I've ever owned and I LOVE the smell of nice leather. The ingredients would seem to be Water, Lanolin, Beeswax, Vegetable Oils and Fragrance. All pretty natural on the face of it - water, wax, wax, oils, and stink. 

Of course, whether waxes and oils are good for leather seems to depend on which camp you're in. Surely leather needs something longer-lasting than just water to keep it supple?


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## NAJ

my opinion, there is a lot of good companys that produce great cleaners, protectors.
i tried them few, but for me lederzentrum.de is the best. with that, i don't want to say that others aren0t good. others can be the same quality/better/worse - your opinion (whichever works for you).

about cleaning leather with just water and a little cleaner in it. for regular maintence i think it's great choice. for better cleaning, dedicated cleaner is better.

about protectors...yes, all leather is painted and top coated. and i don't see why you should not use protector. we all waxing cars. so if you want paint in good condition, you must gave a lot of care. and leather is no difference. protection on leathers is very important to keep leather in good condition. 

so my advice is:
clean leather regularly with damp cloth and few times a year use dedicated cleaner to (depending how dirty it is) and few times (2-4) a year give leather dedicated protector.


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## Goodfella36

NAJ said:


> my opinion, there is a lot of good companys that produce great cleaners, protectors.
> i tried them few, but for me lederzentrum.de is the best. with that, i don't want to say that others aren0t good. others can be the same quality/better/worse - your opinion (whichever works for you).
> 
> about cleaning leather with just water and a little cleaner in it. for regular maintence i think it's great choice. for better cleaning, dedicated cleaner is better.
> 
> about protectors...yes, all leather is painted and top coated. and i don't see why you should not use protector. we all waxing cars. so if you want paint in good condition, you must gave a lot of care. and leather is no difference. protection on leathers is very important to keep leather in good condition.
> 
> so my advice is:
> clean leather regularly with damp cloth and few times a year use dedicated cleaner to (depending how dirty it is) and few times (2-4) a year give leather dedicated protector.


lederzentrum.de they rebrand produts for swissvax if i remember right ?


----------



## NAJ

yes. they make products for swissvax and for a lot of other companies


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## weekenddetailer

NAJ said:


> yes. they make products for swissvax and for a lot of other companies


I am pretty certain (sorry 100% positive) that lederzentrum buy from STAHL Europe - Holland

The reason i know this is the I am good friends with the international sales manager of STAHL. STAHL are one of the biggest and oldest leather chemical company in the world and manufacture 180 tonnes of product per day, most of which goes to the brands that we know in the detailing world. They just alter the perfume and colour to give it a 'unique' identity.


----------



## Brazo

The information posted by leather experts about this coating is certainly true. However my question is how long does this coating last?

Its an ultra thin spray on coating a mere few microns (if that?). Given wear and tear (think your bum sliding on and off seats constantly) my bet is that it doesn't last very long. 

New leather is best treated with very little, perhaps a clean with a damp cloth. older leather where its cracked, worn and lets face it not a trace of any 'coating' on it certaintly benefits from some treatement and after treating many older leather interiors I simply won't be told otherwise as I have seen the improvements it makes


----------



## gt5500

Brazo said:


> after treating many older leather interiors I simply won't be told otherwise as I have seen the improvements it makes


Exactly and this is the point about Judyb's posts that infuriates me, people have seen benefits from using these products but LTT rock up and tell us that we can't have done because the other products can't work. I also find it tiresome the way that LTT try to give the impression they are the only people selling leather care products that have professional experience in the leather industry, yet some other products are sold by leather experts. I do have to correct you though Brazo I think you have misunderstood the word coating. The term coating is not referring to a protective coating over the colour pigment it means the pigment is the coating. A simple way to think of it is painted leather, older leather and some expensive furniture is dyed but almost all car leather is coated. If the coating wears off so does the colour as they are one and the same, however I personally believe that over time the coating cracks on a microscopic level and the conditioners can soak through. If you think about man made waterproof materials how long do they stay waterproof for? not long generally and oil soaks through a lot of them anyway.


----------



## TOGWT

gt5500 said:


> You may think them ill mannered but seriously there is not a leather care thread on the forum where JudyB has not stuck the oar in and claimed that all other products are dangerous and will damage your leather and then goes on to suggest we all use LTT products. It get's rather tiring when people are just after some good old un biased information, you don't see the Dodo guys going round recommending thier waxes on every wax thread, I am not sure why LTT have to. Judyb even hunts round on other forums where they are not authorised traders and then deters people from using competitors products, I can't abide such forcefull and shady marketing tactics.


Commercialism brings with it concerns of honesty and true representation. In other words, it's difficult to know what is true when someone is motivated by income, i.e. directly targeted at product sales, more so than an unbiased opinion.

Always keep an open mind and I would also strongly suggest that you verify any information that I or anyone else shares with you.

Although I would add I've never read any information posted by JudyB / LTT that was inaccurate albeit slightly biased, but that's to be expected.


----------



## Furniture Clinic

Hi, here's my input;

If the leather is old, worn and cracked then conditioning or 'feeding' it will make it look and feel much better. Don't listen to people saying it can't be fed, because under these circumstances it CAN.

Basically, when the surface is cracked or crazed, this is exposing the raw/natural fibres of leather beneath the surface coating. When you apply a conditioner to leather in this state, the leather is able to absorb the conditioner and reep the benefits. However, if the surface coating is intact, a conditioner will just wipe on and then off again. It is for this reason that we make a wax/silicone based protector that can condition leather when it can be conditioned (i.e. when the leather is absorbent) and to protect the leather when it cannot.

The majority of modern upholstery leather will keep itself moistuirsed by absorbing water vapour from the air through the flesh side of the hide. This type of leather should just be cleaned and protected. Conditioners wouldn't do anything. Our protector forms a barrier on the surface to resist staining, but more importantly with this type of leather, the barrier will reduce wear and tear as it reduces friction on the surface.

The finish on most leathers (applied in the tannery) is sufficient enough to make leather last with normal use. However, car bolsters, as you may well know, come under much more wear & tear and these areas often wear much quicker. 

I hope this helps clear things up a little


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## Dr Leather

gt5500 said:


> A simple way to think of it is painted leather, older leather and some expensive furniture is dyed but almost all car leather is coated. If the coating wears off so does the colour as they are one and the same, however I personally believe that over time the coating cracks on a microscopic level and the conditioners can soak through. If you think about man made waterproof materials how long do they stay waterproof for? not long generally and oil soaks through a lot of them anyway.


Sorry but pretty much all automotive leather will have a clear top coat. If there was pigment in the top coat your rub fastness colourfastness levels would be rubbish. The technical term in the leather world for coating leather is 'finishing'.

Regarding the leather experts - firstly you should ask what their technical training credentials are - minimum in my book is a 2 year HND in Leather Technology.......

Cheers,

Darryl


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## NAJ

weekenddetailer said:


> I am pretty certain (sorry 100% positive) that lederzentrum buy from STAHL Europe - Holland
> 
> The reason i know this is the I am good friends with the international sales manager of STAHL. STAHL are one of the biggest and oldest leather chemical company in the world and manufacture 180 tonnes of product per day, most of which goes to the brands that we know in the detailing world. They just alter the perfume and colour to give it a 'unique' identity.


this information i don't know.
but I explain this like menzerna company (i apologize if i'm wrong). they make polishes for other companies too. if they make some polish for some other XY company by their formula (XY), this if for me XY polish, not menzerna. of course they made it in menzerna, but XY give formula that works for them the most. 
and in this case about leather i think is the same. if STAHL makes chemicals for lederzentrum.de by leatherzentrum's formula, then i consider chemical are lederzentrum.

when i was at lederzentrum, they told us few companies that they use their chemicals. the same formula, just different bottle and sticker. in this case i say that chemicals are lederzentrum, but if they will make different formula, i will say that chemicals are other comapany's.

sorry for my english and i hope you understand me what i want to say. if i'm wrong, i'm sorry, i don't want to offend anybody.


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## weekenddetailer

NAJ said:


> this information i don't know.
> but I explain this like menzerna company (i apologize if i'm wrong). they make polishes for other companies too. if they make some polish for some other XY company by their formula (XY), this if for me XY polish, not menzerna. of course they made it in menzerna, but XY give formula that works for them the most.
> and in this case about leather i think is the same. if STAHL makes chemicals for lederzentrum.de by leatherzentrum's formula, then i consider chemical are lederzentrum.
> 
> when i was at lederzentrum, they told us few companies that they use their chemicals. the same formula, just different bottle and sticker. in this case i say that chemicals are lederzentrum, but if they will make different formula, i will say that chemicals are other comapany's.
> 
> sorry for my english and i hope you understand me what i want to say. if i'm wrong, i'm sorry, i don't want to offend anybody.


 no worries dude, your english is better than my slovenian!


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## Woteva

I bit of light reading for you. (Includes bikini clad hottie!)

http://www.bowdensown.com.au/leather-care-blog


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## gt5500

Darryl said:


> Sorry but pretty much all automotive leather will have a clear top coat. If there was pigment in the top coat your rub fastness colourfastness levels would be rubbish. The technical term in the leather world for coating leather is 'finishing'.
> 
> Regarding the leather experts - firstly you should ask what their technical training credentials are - minimum in my book is a 2 year HND in Leather Technology.......
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Darryl


]
My apologies, you are of course correct. I think what I was getting at is that the pigment layer is also a coating rather then a dye so even if the top coat or 'finish' wears through the leather is still coated. I will hold my hands up though and say I do not know weather the pigment layer is generally considered to be waterproof. I think Ben has stated pretty much what a lot of us believe anyway, the coatings are waterproof at first but through wear and tear they become porous. With regards to the qualifications, I disagree just because some has done a HND course does not mean they are experts. I have come across many experts without qualifications that are extremely competent, I have also come across people with every certificate under the sun and are completely incompetent (I am talking about experts in general here not leather experts).


----------



## TOGWT

Automotive leather is a rather difficult category to define as OEM descriptions of leather finishes vary, often incorrectly from that of leather industry manufacturer's descriptions. Automobile manufacturers have blurred the distinguishing lines on what exactly constitutes leather.

Leather Care is a subject surrounded with misinformation and myth? Unfortunately most of the information is marketing hype, and not given by experts but by people who set themselves up as such without doing any proper research The most fundamental question to be answered before you clean or care for leather is to establish the type of leather finish used on the vehicles upholstery as the cleaning and care methodologies are very specific for each type

Leather finishes; there are two strata's to automotive leather upholstery; the actual hide and the surface finish. The hides used are generally bovine, which must be kept hydrated to maintain tensile strength, suppleness and prevent the hide from cracking and becoming dry.

•	Automotive leather upholstery is typically finished with a coating, which protects the surface from (UV) radiation, as well making it resistant to soiling and wear. These coatings vary in thickness;

•	Aniline leather has a thin clear coating of approximately 0.2µ, thin enough to allow the colour to show through as well as to preserve the tactile feel and patina, yet thick enough to provide surface protection from abrasion.

•	Some natural leathers have a water-based pigmentation coating applied to provide an even colour. There is no such thing as a cow with blue, red or burgundy skin.

•	Covered leather has a pigmented layer of approximately 25 µ, applied to provide both an even colour and protection from wear when getting in and out of the vehicle

•	Alcantara® Ultra suede™, Ecsaine, Micro suede, etc) are not types of leather but are in fact in synthetic materials, it is made from extremely fine polyester microfibers (68% polyester and 32% polyurethane) it has the appearance and tactile feel similar to that of suede, and it may be incorrectly identified as such.

_Always remember you are dealing with the finished coating on the leather and not with the leather hide itself _


----------



## WaxOnWaxOff

Woteva said:


> I bit of light reading for you. (Includes bikini clad hottie!)
> 
> http://www.bowdensown.com.au/leather-care-blog


He wasn't wrong about the bikini! Totally gratuitous but who's complaining? FYI it's not a leather bikini and so no treatment of the bikini takes place :lol::lol:

Conclusions from the article then: 
No lanolin = bye bye Liquid Leather
No Banana oil = bye bye Zymol Treat
I'm all in favour of biodegradable ingredients so I think it's bye bye LTT for me.

...which leaves? 

I had a quick search and found a group review on AutoExpress... I'm unimpressed. Their 5* product is one with Lanolin. :wall:
http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/products/products/210703/simoniz_leather_care_cream.html


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## Dr Leather

I had Dan from Bowden's in my office in Brisbane about 18 months ago. I rewrote a lot of his blurb for him as well..........


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## Dr Leather

gt5500 said:


> ]
> . With regards to the qualifications, I disagree just because some has done a HND course does not mean they are experts. I have come across many experts without qualifications that are extremely competent, I have also come across people with every certificate under the sun and are completely incompetent (I am talking about experts in general here not leather experts).


I said an HND as a start - I'd finish that off with at least 20 years experience in senior positions in tanneries supplying major brands and being a notable prominent figure in the industry.

Question is - are any of the experts on here Fellows of the Society of Leather Technologists & Chemists??? I know I am......

Actually, in honesty, I'm amazed by a lot of the blurb and simple 'cutting & pasting' a lot of the so-called experts on here have done as I sift through all the leather related posts. a lot of it to me is pure and blatant marketing without real knowledge of the chemistries used and formulations applied to these leathers. It does nothing for the genuine leather industry in my opinion.


----------



## Dr Leather

gt5500 said:


> ]
> My apologies, you are of course correct. I think what I was getting at is that the pigment layer is also a coating rather then a dye so even if the top coat or 'finish' wears through the leather is still coated. I will hold my hands up though and say I do not know weather the pigment layer is generally considered to be waterproof. I think Ben has stated pretty much what a lot of us believe anyway, the coatings are waterproof at first but through wear and tear they become porous.


The pigment is simply that - a pigment. It is a coloured particulate. It is only a small part of a finish coat mix which is typically water, binder (PU or acrylic or both), auxiliary (feel agent, flow agent, surface modifier), cross-linker and a pigment. There are other things that can be added.

OK let me explain. For a finished leather it goes, typically, like this:

1. A crust is made - a retanned leather that has been dyed and fatliquored and then dried out.
2. The leather is prepared for finishing (leather terminology for coating), through controlling moisture content and staking (softening).
3. Adhesion coat applied (roller coater, padding or spraying most common).
4. Coloured base coat applied (rollercoater or sprayed).
5. 2nd base coat applied to build up coverage (usually just a spray this time).
6. Clear top coat applied.
7. Optionally embossing, milling or other staking operations can happen before or after the top coat.
8. Leather goes off for physical testing in lab to test against specifications.

It's far more complex, but you get the idea.

The coatings are generally made water resistant through the use of the cross-linker and to pass the required aqueous and solvent based colourfastness tests.

I could go on for hours but don't want to bore you. But needless to say making leather is HIGHLY TECHNICAL and there is a lot of science and technology that goes in to it. If you all want to know more let me know and I'll try to write a more formal paper on it. Better still send me some questions and I'll roll it all in to one.

Cheers Darryl


----------



## Xabby

*Darryl*, your explanations are very good and I thank you for that. Most of us have polyurethane coated leather in our cars. From your experience and knowledge what do you think we must do basically to take care of this type of leather.

Greetings
Xabby


----------



## wot

@ Darryl,
Thanks for the explanation of the process. Is there any chance you could educate me as to what is required to repair and maintain the leather in the following pictures. The car is an audi S6 from 1996. Pics are of the drivers seat. As you can see there are some cracks in the finish.




























Many thanks,
Shane


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## lilesk

Great detailed thread, but I'm left feeling confused. 

So back to the OP.
I've got an Audi with leather seats similar to those shown above. I use saddle soap about once a year. Is that OK, or would something like the Auto Express winning Simoniz Leather Cream Care be much better?


----------



## WaxOnWaxOff

Saddle soap is baaaaaad. The Simoniz I mentioned in my earlier post contains Lanolin, which apparently also isn't good either according to the info linked to by woteva, here:
http://www.bowdensown.com.au/leather-care-blog

As for what to use... still waiting for some info on that one!


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## Goodfella36

I was wondering that all this info and bar Ltt and furniture clinic no one has said what to use I have used both company's above and find both their products very effective and will keep using them until someone comes up with something a lot better and with Proof.


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## TOGWT

[I could go on for hours but don't want to bore you. But needless to say making leather is HIGHLY TECHNICAL and there is a lot of science and technology that goes in to it. If you all want to know more let me know and I'll try to write a more formal paper on it. Better still send me some questions and I'll roll it all in to one.]

I appreciate that leather processing is very technical and the science involved with the chemicals used, but most auto leather upholstery detailing and care is only concered with the proper care of the urathene covering.

A post on leather tanning and processing would be an asset to this forum and as seeking knowledge is always beneficial


----------



## stan the man

I have not visited DW for some time and bang straight into this thread. Extremely interesting and informative,however I have just completed coating all of my seats in Liquid Leather and have done so for some years on various cars and never had a problem. OK the smell of LL is more like a selective weedkiller than leather but the smell does mellow and yes after several hours does become quite like leather.So in my case why fix it if it ain't broke.


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## WaxOnWaxOff

Yahoo!! It's not just me that thinks it smells like something you'd take out of the garden shed then! :lol:


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## lilesk

WaxOnWaxOff said:


> Saddle soap is baaaaaad.(


Without risking a long and detailed technical reply. Can someone explain in simple terms why Saddle Soap, which is designed for leather, is not good for use on car seats?


----------



## TOGWT

lilesk said:


> Without risking a long and detailed technical reply. Can someone explain in simple terms why Saddle Soap, which is designed for leather, is not good for use on car seats?


Saddle soap is an emulsion of fats and oils, originally used as a leather softener (fat liquoring) before the onset of chrome tanning. In reality, saddle soap is a very poor cleaner as its alkaline detergents must first dissolve its inbuilt oils and fat, limiting its capacity to dissolve dirt and body oils.

Being inherently alkaline it will damage the vinyl film on pigmented or covered leather, saddle soap also contains wax and solvents, which are required to weatherproof equestrian leather, both of which are detrimental to finished leather upholstery.

_*Remember you are dealing with a thin water-based pigment layer on the leather and not with the leather hide itself.*_


----------



## RedUntilDead

WaxOnWaxOff said:


> Yahoo!! It's not just me that thinks it smells like something you'd take out of the garden shed then! :lol:


My head hurts now!

IMO just buy some ltt stuff and give it a go. The best stuff I have used to date (and I have tried them all)


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## TOGWT

Serious said:


> if moisture cant get in, then how does it get out? ie . drying of the leather.


_
Clarification of how water can permeate the leather but the ingredients in leather conditioners cannot?_

Leather is very dynamic with respect to its moisture content; the leather hides needs to be kept supple. The purpose of rehydration is to restore moisture lost through evaporation, so whatever the surface finish, it has to allow the movement of moisture back and forth (evaporation and hydration). The liquoring (fats and oils) that are put into the leather during the tanning process do not dry out of the leather so therefore do not need replacing.

A water-based product accomplishes this with an emulsion of micro droplets of oil (for surface lubrication) and water that permeate the leather finish and / or the polyurethane as the emulsions molecular structure is smaller than the molecules of the finished leather or the polyurethane covering.

Particulate size - you can tell how small the emulsion droplets are and in some cases how concentrated an emulsion is by its colour. Opaque white emulsions typically have a large particle size, while faintly opaque or pearlescent emulsions typically have a small particle size approaching 1µ or less.

Water unlike other organic or hydrocarbon-based solvents, is non-flammable, odourless, non-toxic and non-sensitizing to the skin and it doesn't impart a greasy or tacky feel to the surface of the leather, nor will it change the matte finish.

In summary, an aqueous emulsion is readily absorbed into the fibres and provides lasting and effective lubrication without migration, while re-hydration leaves leather feeling silky soft and pliable.


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## WaxOnWaxOff

RedUntilDead - Seems fair. We haven't really heard anything to the contrary. So that'll clean and protect the leather, which is great. And we've heard how conditioning and feeding isn't really necessary - however - what can be used to improve or nip early creases and cracks in the bud? Same stuff?


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## judyb

Creases in leather are normal and natural and will depend to a certain extent the area of the hide that the panels of leather have been cut from. Creased areas are more likely to show signs of cracking if they are not kept clean so special attention should be paid to these areas. 
Cracks in leather are caused by dirt combined with abrasion - it is the pigment/finish coating that cracks and not the leather itself so keeping the leather clean will help prevent dirt from causing a problem. Uisng a protector makes the leather easier to keep clean so helps with the process. It will also provide a surface barrier which will help to guard against friction.

Hope this helps


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## WaxOnWaxOff

It does a bit, thanks, but doesn't really address the improvement of existing defects. I bought the car with some minor cracking to the front surface of the side bolster. It's not got any worse in the year or so that I've had the car because I'm careful how I get in and out. The car looks essentially the same as when I bought it basically, apart from some gentle creases here and there 

I've used Liquid Leather's Scuffmaster dying kit on it and can't really say that it did much to that cracked area - certainly not the "now you see it now you don't" results that some people seem to have had on their cars if their forum posts are to be believed (which I suspect they're not). I spent a long time dong it, building up a number of applications per the instructions but didn't really see any difference from one application to the next despite adding some tint to the dye to make it darker to try and match the surround. I also tried the glossing additive to try and get the cracks to have a bit of sheen to match the surrounding leather. No difference really.

Hence my question as to what, if anything, can be used to improve such areas in addition to preventing them getting worse (which I seem to have mostly under control by avoiding wearing that area).


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## judyb

Damaged pigment needs repairing. Once it is damaged it will only get worse until the leather itself becomes damaged. This is then impossible to repair and you would need a panel replacement so it is much better to fix problems in their early stages.

Just as there are many leather care products on the market there are also many repair/restoration products, these vary greatly in their effectiveness and durability. Many DIY products simply do not work or may appear to work but do not last. A one step product as this is, is not going to restore the pigment/finish as it has been applied during the finishing process - you will need professional products to do this and this is a process with several products not a simple wipe on product.

If you want to send me some photos I may be able to suggest the best way of tackling the problem or refer you to a professional who will be able to do the job for you. It will be crucial to remove what has been applied before using new products to fix the damage.

Once refinished you can start your leather care routine.

In the meantime the damaged area will still benefit from cleaning and protection as dirt and body oils will only make the matter worse. The products will not prevent any further work being done

Hope this helps


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## WaxOnWaxOff

Thanks :thumb: Yeah I was a bit disappointed with the result - I was hoping to at least get the leather surface to be a reasonable colour match for the surrounding, and wasn't really expecting the surface to match as the cracks have a different texture. I'll get the camera out later on and take some high resolution pictures. Could you PM me an email address I can send it/them to please?


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## judyb

Colour matching is one of the most difficult bits (even for a technician) but is one of the most important things as it can make the difference between a good and bad repair. Matching sheen is also a part of this process.

Send the photos to [email protected] and I will take a look.


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## WaxOnWaxOff

Ok, many thanks. I'll be going out shortly so will take the camera with me to get a picture or two.

The colour match seemed excellent when the stuff was wet. It's black leather but the cracks dried to pretty much the same colour as before - a dark grey. The cloth I was using to take off the excess did also appear a similar colour though to be fair. That was what made me add more black to the base to adjust its tone, but it was supposed to be colour matched to my leather anyway.


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## weekenddetailer

There are a few companies that use a colour scanner (spectrophotometer) although some arent as accurate as others. There is a company in Europe that franchise their system although i dont think they are in the UK in any strength at the moment, but their colour matching is first class, and it even matches gloss level too. I know they are in Germany & Spain but not 100% sure if they are in UK, but the site is colorcare.eu


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## Dr Leather

judyb said:


> Colour matching is one of the most difficult bits (even for a technician) but is one of the most important things as it can make the difference between a good and bad repair. Matching sheen is also a part of this process.
> 
> Send the photos to [email protected] and I will take a look.


In truth colour matching within a very small Delta E value can be tricky, but as someone else has stated now with handheld spectophotometers (Datacolor, Macbeth, etc), in particular the goniospecs (which read from multi-angles for pearlescent and irridescent leathers), it is fairly easy. Experience is the key in knowing which pigments to use, etc. Gloss levels are easily controlled through the use of a gloss meter, and is often a simple case of tempering the mix with varying levels of matting agents, due to most PU's and acrylics being quite glossy. There are a number of types of matting agents, and again careful selection of the correct type will yield a good finish. However, the other way to control the gloss, which is very difficult to do post-interior, is through embossing the leather with a specific grain print.



> Darryl, your explanations are very good and I thank you for that. Most of us have polyurethane coated leather in our cars. From your experience and knowledge what do you think we must do basically to take care of this type of leather.
> 
> Greetings
> Xabby


Sorry for the delay in replying Xabby but I have been away developing some new football boot leathers. In truth my opinion is quite simple. Firstly, do not use any form of silicone as this will just mess the leather up - that said with regard to currently available products and technology.

For taking care of the leather I recommend only really one product. But it is unfair to name this at present on here with regards to the rules of this forum. Suffice to say though it needs a formulation that is sympathetic to the leather and utilises harmonious products to the standard automotive finish systems. In addition I am not a fan of a cleaner that you have to pour the liquid on to a cloth and apply, etc. That is a complete waste of time, and nowadays I feel the better products come all as one where the cleaner has been impregnated specifically in to a fibrous cleaning sheet that is designed for micro-scouring and retention of the dirt removed. I've seen so many of these supposed cleaners over the years, and frankly they are cheap chemical cleaners - you know they are probably worth no more that a quid per litre and then marked up extortionately to the general public. I won't win any friends for saying that, but it is correct. The cleaner products I suggest use specific chemistry and as such they are more expensive as it is a 'tuned' blend. Out of interest I have applied to become a sponsor on here so soon I hope to be able to offer you some interesting trials with a new cleaner system that was co-developed for some of the leading auto brands:driver:

Reply to WOT:

I looked at your pictures and enhanced them. In truth it is clear that the finish coating has severely cracked on the side bolsters, and that you are seeing the leather underneath. Without actually handling and looking at the leather under a microscope could I honestly tell you whether you can safely and economically repair it. Te issue is that because the finish has cracked then you do not simply want to 'paint over the cracks' for want of a better terminology. If you could abrade off all of the finish and then refinish with a high performance finish system then that is best. But really I'd cost that up against having it retrimmed. Best trimmer I know is a bloke called Niven Ladd - 01732 846906 based near Maidstone in Kent - great prices and very good craftmanship I must say.

Cheers,

Darryl


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## Defined Reflections

Fantastic thread,very interesting :thumb:


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## spurgen

Darryl and Judyb, could you give us your opinion on steam cleaning leather please?


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## wookey

Defined Reflections said:


> Fantastic thread,very interesting :thumb:


+1 very interesting :thumb:


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## gally

It's been a pleasure reading Judy's posts.

What I was confused about was people having a go claiming it was for marketing benefit ect... But Judy is not selling anything, if anything Judy is trying to save you money.

As was said once the leather gets to the stage like the seat in the last page it's too late. Any products will actually make the leather worse by getting under the top coat and lifting it off, making it worse.

Prevention by cleaning the leather with simple water and a little "safe" cleaning agent is all that's required. In the long run you see leather less likely to crack as per the previous picture as the oil/particles haven't damaged the leather because it has been cleaned lets say weekly so it's never had a chance.

Hopefully Judy can correct me if i'm wrong.


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## gt5500

gally said:


> It's been a pleasure reading Judy's posts.
> 
> What I was confused about was people having a go claiming it was for marketing benefit ect... But Judy is not selling anything, if anything Judy is trying to save you money.


You do know that Judyb Works for LTT right? and LTT sell a water based cleaner and protector which according to Judyb's posts is the only safe thing to use....


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## dominic84

It would be a lot more interesting if someone from Autoglym, AutoSmart, Zymol etc actually added some input into these threads.


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## weekenddetailer

dominic84 said:


> It would be a lot more interesting if someone from Autoglym, AutoSmart, Zymol etc actually added some input into these threads.


Probably because they don't have a leather specialist in-house. They would most likely get picked to pieces by some of the specialists online.


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## gally

gt5500 said:


> You do know that Judyb Works for LTT right? and LTT sell a water based cleaner and protector which according to Judyb's posts is the only safe thing to use....


I think you're wrong.

Judy has mentioned many different fabric guards. Ones that you can buy on the high street.

She also mentioned that you can clean leather with water and a suitable cleaner normal soapy water or whatever.

I haven't seen her really sell her product only highlight that people may be getting ripped off and i've spoken to an expert on Leather he backs up everything Judy said.

He also had nothing to gain by telling the truth.


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## dominic84

> Probably because they don't have a leather specialist in-house. They would most likely get picked to pieces by some of the specialists online.


We'll never know unless they comment, until they do these threads will always be very one-sided.

But at the end of the day I just want to know the cut of their iced buns which doesn't require a psudeo lecture from a Michelin Star Pâtisserie Chef.


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## TOGWT

weekenddetailer said:


> Probably because they don't have a leather specialist in-house. They would most likely get picked to pieces by some of the specialists online.


Leather care is a subject surrounded with misinformation and myth? Unfortunately most of the information is marketing hype, and not given by experts but by people who set themselves up as such without doing any proper research and / or training.

One of the biggest myths in 'leather' care is the fact that you are dealing with a thin urethane covering not the leather itself

I looked at a popular vendors site (US) and there are nine pages of oil-based leather conditioners. So I could see why no company rep would want to extol the virtues of a water-based product.

Besides commercialism brings with it concerns of honesty and true representation. In other words, it's difficult to know what is true when someone is motivated by income, i.e. directly targeted at product sales, more so than an unbiased opinion.


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## SuperlativeTeam

i was too lazy to read all this jaber-jaber  ^.^ 

I will be short and pretty sure very logicaly correct. 
So:

Leather is a skin. We People in order to keep it clean wash it regulary with shampoo and water. So. Water + Shampoo = clean leather = clean skin.

As well we Human use creams to make our skin smoofer, shinny and healthy. Why not to apply same thinking down to the leather = skin we are sitting on?


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## Xabby

SuperlativeTeam said:


> i was too lazy to read all this jaber-jaber  ^.^
> 
> I will be short and pretty sure very logicaly correct.
> So:
> 
> Leather is a skin. We People in order to keep it clean wash it regulary with shampoo and water. So. Water + Shampoo = clean leather = clean skin.
> 
> As well we Human use creams to make our skin smoofer, shinny and healthy. Why not to apply same thinking down to the leather = skin we are sitting on?


Because they are absolutely different.


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## TOGWT

SuperlativeTeam said:


> i was too lazy to read all this jaber-jaber  ^.^
> 
> I will be short and pretty sure very logicaly correct.
> So:
> 
> Leather is a skin. We People in order to keep it clean wash it regulary with shampoo and water. So. Water + Shampoo = clean leather = clean skin.
> 
> As well we Human use creams to make our skin smoofer, shinny and healthy. Why not to apply same thinking down to the leather = skin we are sitting on?


Leather is the hide removed from a deceased animal and the tanning / curing processes used seal in the necessary oils during the fat liquoring stage, thereby ensuring that the fibres cannot nor, do they need to be fed. Hide foods are something again that can be used in the horse and saddle business or with the older Aniline type dyed leathers.

There is no correlation between how we look after our own skin and how we look after finished leather upholstery, Proteins, Collagen, Lanolin and Aloe are used for human skin reconstruction and nutrition, leather is not like human skin, its dead and cannot be regenerated or revived.

Many leather treatment theories have grown up around the fact that you need to moisturise skin and so this is wrongly transferred to the care of finished leather, especially when you consider that it has a urethane pigmented coating


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## Spirit Detailing

This is a very funny thread...!


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## chesterfield

As its late now I wont be reading the whole of this thread, but I do intend to read it all as its been a subject Ive been meaning to research for some time.

Ive two cars with cream leather, and Im very concerned at how to ensure they stay cream and dont become dyed blue from jean dye transfer etc. So far my solution has been to avoid wearing jeans in a cream leather car, but inevitably I forget this rule so over time one in particular has picked up some colour. Im hoping that I can use this thread amongst others to find out how to fix this, and also prevent it happening again


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## judyb

You will need to use a Jean & Dye Transfer Remover Kit to rectify the problem that you have and then just use Auto Ultra Protect and clean on a regular basis and this will inhibit the problem form reoccuring - the longer you leave the dye on the leather at the moment the harder it will be to remove. 
Just give me a ring if you want further help.

Cheers
Judyb


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## TOGWT

SuperlativeTeam said:


> i was too lazy to read all this jaber-jaber  ^.^
> 
> I will be short and pretty sure very logicaly correct.
> So:
> 
> Leather is a skin. We People in order to keep it clean wash it regulary with shampoo and water. So. Water + Shampoo = clean leather = clean skin.
> 
> As well we Human use creams to make our skin smoofer, shinny and healthy. Why not to apply same thinking down to the leather = skin we are sitting on?


Leather is the hide removed from a deceased animal and the tanning / curing processes used seal in the necessary oils during the fat liquoring stage, thereby ensuring that the fibres cannot nor, do they need to be fed. Hide foods are something again that can be used in the horse and saddle business or with the older Aniline type dyed leathers.

There is no correlation between how we look after our own skin and how we look after finished leather upholstery, Proteins, Collagen, Lanolin and Aloe are used for human skin reconstruction and nutrition, leather is not like human skin, its dead and cannot be regenerated or revived.


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## Paulo

_Could I ask what "Kit" would be best to clean and protect the leather seats and dashboard in a 5 year old Porsche....?

Would the Raceglaze kit or LTT Traditional or Ultra Care Kit be best or is there any other products I should be looking at....?

TIA.... _


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## judyb

The LTT Auto Ultra 150 kit will be great for this. Contains all that is needed to clean, protect and maintain your leather.


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## Paulo

_Thanks Judy for the reply, I'll be ordering it today...._


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