# what does it cost to make a (highend wax)?



## trhland (Sep 22, 2007)

*just wondering what it costs companys to make these waxes? cr for example $1100usd.. i would have to think it only cost swissvax few dollars to make a pot maybe $50.00usd? at the most . and the rest is profit.no?*


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## haxbyscoobs (Dec 1, 2006)

well its like most things made in bulk the more you produce the cheaper it costs the higher the profits

For example it costs less than 1 pence to produce a loaf of bread whether it be Warburton's or a supermarkets own brand!!


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## Bigpikle (May 21, 2007)

I dont think it actually does (just my guess) but I reckon they just charge more 

Dont believe there are any 'super expensive' ingredients at all - maybe a lower volume but no doubt made in a batch process, so I really dont think there is much difference in actual manufacturing costs vs other relatively low volume lines eg NOT suggesting high volume bottling like Megs costs the same as tubs of Destiny to make, but Zym Titanium vs Vintage......

Of course, while I have been in a LOT of different manufacturing environments across many industries, I havent had any inside info on wax manufacture, so may be completely wrong....


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## Dodo Factory (Apr 11, 2007)

When waxes get above, say, 40 or 50 GBP, you are generally paying for:

a) packaging

b) research and development costs

c) exclusivity

This is assuming 'normal' ingredients and manufacturing techniques.


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## Envy Car Care (Aug 17, 2006)

I would suggest that there are research and development costs to re-coup too, its not just about the cost of the ingredients and the skill at blending them.
D'oh, Dom beat me to it


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## RaceGlazer (Jan 10, 2007)

You have to add the costs to bring these new products to everyones attention too - even DW isn't free, and other overheads outside of the discrete product which you have to allow for. 
If you're a huge outfit you can spread a £700 advert over many thousands of pounds worth of sales, but some of us can't afford the gamble of full pages in Evo. Then again, we don't pass that on to customers either. (You can read this either way)


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## Dodo Factory (Apr 11, 2007)

Very true, Mark.


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## mattyb95 (Apr 21, 2008)

Don't forget they have to keep the magical pixies fed and housed that gather the ingredients for the super high end waxes, plus the stock of beautiful virgins to fill the pots.


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## trhland (Sep 22, 2007)

mattyb95 said:


> Don't forget they have to keep the magical pixies fed and housed that gather the ingredients for the super high end waxes, plus the stock of beautiful virgins to fill the pots.


oh ok


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## Jakedoodles (Jan 16, 2006)

Good carnauba is quite difficult to get, and it's quite expensive. The cheapo yellow stuff you can get from anywhere mind, and the rest of the ingredients are readily available. I know this because Mrs Wonder is a soap maker, and some of her soaps have very similar ingredients to car wax!


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## Dave KG (Feb 23, 2006)

Wonderdetail said:


> *Good carnauba is quite difficult to get, and it's quite expensive. The cheapo yellow stuff you can get from anywhere mind*, and the rest of the ingredients are readily available. I know this because Mrs Wonder is a soap maker, and some of her soaps have very similar ingredients to car wax!


Is it?

I was under the impression _all_ carnauba is yellow and that the mystical white carnauba which is much talked about is simply refined yellow, or indeed very powdered yellow... that is to say, white carnauba doesn't really exist naturally, its simply a refinement (or in some cases, a bleaching?) process...

Re: costs - I was also under the impression that carnauba is graded, and that the highest grades of carnauba are used in many waxes - IIRC Dodo Juice and Rubbishboys use it for example, in "cheaper" waxes and Meguiars claim to use it in their £12.10 a pot #16...

I'm not convinced there are huge differences to the natural product personally, perhaps the refining process, but happy to be proven otherwise as it may explain where some wax companies get their frankly ludicrous prices from...


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## A20 LEE (Feb 20, 2007)

With Z Vintage your getting a lifetime of wax, support, admin, pot refurbished, much more personal service from the retailers,etc. Also isn't it more difficult to make a wax usable with a high carnauba content?


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## RedCloudMC (Jul 19, 2008)

All these costs outlined above all do play a huge part in the cost of bringing a pot of wax to your door. Distribution costs, R&D, ingredients, staff, marketing...all cost money. Backing this up with after sales service like the Z word do all costs in terms of time, staff and infrastructure. 

I agree in the old adage you get what you pay for. There may or may not be differences in the end product from different brands, but you do get better support from some (take Dom for example....great customer service...that'll be a free pot of SN please DOM!  ). It's like buying a car...a Fiat Panda will get you from A to B as will a Ferrari...the Ferrari is obviously faster, more exclusive, prestigious and with very personal after care. They're both vehicles but the R&D costs, manufacturing costs, after sales support, marketing etc....is on a completely different level and you pay a huge premium for this and the associated prestige/feel good factor. It's about Supply and demand too of course...whilst we're paying £100+ for a wax, they'll keep charging us £100+ for a wax. They're businesses and as such deserve to make a profit...how much is down to the individual business and the market demands.

Sorry - sounds like a rant - it's certainly not...the question of cost is a very good one....but every wax out there will come at a different cost of supply per pot....how long's a piece of string?

:thumb:


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## Dave KG (Feb 23, 2006)

A20 LEE said:


> With Z Vintage your getting a lifetime of wax, support, admin, pot refurbished, much more personal service from the retailers,etc. Also isn't it more difficult to make a wax usable with a high carnauba content?


Carnauba content is a very thorny issue - I dont recall anywhere where ***** have specifically said how they measure the 60-odd% in Vintage, and 70% in Royale but the 70% content Flat Earth is certainly a very interesting demonstration that begs the question: are there solvents that allow you to have 70% concentration, or are they measuring it a different way? I suspect the latter but until ***** themselves give a ********** answer we will never know - something I would very much like to know, especially given other manufacturer's willingness to highlight how they measure their quantities...



RedCloudMC said:


> All these costs outlined above all do play a huge part in the cost of bringing a pot of wax to your door. Distribution costs, R&D, ingredients, staff, marketing...all cost money. Backing this up with after sales service like the Z word do all costs in terms of time, staff and infrastructure.
> 
> I agree in the old adage you get what you pay for. There may or may not be differences in the end product from different brands, but you do get better support from some (take Dom for example....great customer service...that'll be a free pot of SN please DOM!  ). It's like buying a car...a Fiat Panda will get you from A to B as will a Ferrari...the Ferrari is obviously faster, more exclusive, prestigious and with very personal after care. They're both vehicles but the R&D costs, manufacturing costs, after sales support, marketing etc....is on a completely different level and you pay a huge premium for this and the associated prestige/feel good factor. It's about Supply and demand too of course...whilst we're paying £100+ for a wax, they'll keep charging us £100+ for a wax. They're businesses and as such deserve to make a profit...how much is down to the individual business and the market demands.
> 
> ...


Indeed and I agree - up to a point. Supply and demand, cannot argue with that one as for as long as people will pay hundreds, or thousands of pounds for a wax, they will be sold for that.

But: yes, R&D, admin, personal support of the product is something a smaller and more unique firm like Dodo and Raceglaze can offer, but the prices of their waxes are not exactly bug in the grand scheme of things... If a small company can product a quality product (where overheads are going to put more pressure on them, advertising and the like is not as easy as the raw capital is not there) for say £65, why must we pay say £460 for a product of very similar performance from another "more established" company?? What is it that warrants this price?? Ingredients... I suspect not. R&D... Much more than other waxes, again I suspect not. Production costs... likely to be higher (percentage wise of turnover) for a smaller firm, no?

Something just doesn't add up - from a purely performance, and raw ingredient point of view. But from a point of view of supply and demand and companies getting as much profit as they can (business is business so I am not saying from this point of view that this is right or wrong) it makes more sense...

The one gets what they pay for in the LSP industry... the answer to that, for me, has to be unequivocally no based on performance and what you actually get in the jar, combined with enjoyment factors and support of the product and a willingness of a company to listen to what its customers want... But this represents only my opinion.


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## RedCloudMC (Jul 19, 2008)

I agree Dave but with regards to your question re: why should we pay more for a certain brand when the end product is not proportionally better than another, I would argue that...

Brand image and heritage is the key...people will pay excrutiating amounts for Z waxes for example because that company have long since positioned themselves as the best of the best. IMO they're far from it and I think you may agree given your comments. However, in today's world we all know people will pay ridiculous amounts for a label and so-called 'heritage'. Does a Ralph Lauren suit do a different job from a NEXT one...of course not. But it has the label and so certain people will continue to think it much better and worthy of more money.

Dodo, as an example, IMO produce some of the best waxes out there and I think the SN price is more than fair compared to some Zs. They are a much smaller company, you're right, and they are a very fashionable brand in the realms of car care...but because they are a new company they do not have the so-called heritage of 'Z's founders designed this to use on their horse carriages' (or whatevere the marketing bumph says). If Dom decided to charge £400 for a pot of SN people would laugh at him as a result...he's still establishing his company's brand. Z on the other hand can do this and I'm sure will continue to do so and make a nice tidy profit. In 50 years time Dodo may actually be able to demand the equivalent of £500 a pot or more...they'll be a recognised leader...if that's how they want to market themselves and their products.

The power of marketing (which isn't just about cold calls and selling as I'm sure you know but many don't appear to) is very powerful indeed. Marketers create needs in many people without those people realising....this is what Z for example excel at. They position themselves as a niche prestige brand - bit like choosing between between a Golf and a Fabia...the latter is arguably the better car...but it doesn't have the 'quality' badge or 'quality' heritage. That's how it's been marketed. How many people remember a Skoda ad from the 80's? Now how many people remember the 'car key and model' ad for the Mk2 Golf GTI? Marketing...

The world is run by marketers....


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## Dave KG (Feb 23, 2006)

I wholeheartedly agree that its pretty much fully down to marketing... a bit like Audi to use an example from cars, as they had to take time to establish themselves beside Mercedes for example and before this they were not considered to be "as good" despite the fact they likely were. Marketing is indeed very powerful, and against it nobody is likely to listen to me, or any other enthusaist detailer who turns around and says "wait a minute, just what are we paying for here, is it _really_ better?"...

Which is a shame, but thats the world and that is business... I dont believe Z are the best of the best, indeed it is my personal opinion their products are ridiculously overpriced and overhyped - but this is simply my opinion. And I challenge my opinion by trying to find a reason above and beyond simple marketing that they charge far more for say Destiny than Mark does for RG55, and on ingredients and performance, there simply isn't a reason I can see. Its purely brand name, marketing and to me thats just ripping the mick out of customers at the extreme prices they can take some of their waxes too, again purely my opinion. But then again, if folk are happy to pay it, thats fine - so long as they are happy... what sometimes annoys me is when folk are blinded by marketing.


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## PaulN (Jan 17, 2008)

I like Dodo waxes for what they do at the price they do it. I wouldn't consider paying anything like the silly prices being thrown about and if a new company one day get to a point they think because they are the best and can charge what ever they want its a sad day for them.

Saying that ive got a sample of supernatural and if i like it i will buy a pot, not because its the buzz word this week but because i like it and can justify the price tag. 

I think offering a plastic pot at a cheaper price is great business sense which only goes to show Dodo know their customers and what they want.

And regarding the 2 different cars i bet the Ferrari R&D do alot more outside sourcing of parts and sub assy's than Pandas design team do........ so whos cutting corners?

Cheers

PaulN


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## Jakedoodles (Jan 16, 2006)

Dave KG said:


> Is it?
> 
> I was under the impression _all_ carnauba is yellow and that the mystical white carnauba which is much talked about is simply refined yellow, or indeed very powdered yellow... that is to say, white carnauba doesn't really exist naturally, its simply a refinement (or in some cases, a bleaching?) process...
> 
> ...


Well, that's what I thought! However, Mrs Wonder did some research for me, and from people outside of the car wax industry (so no reason to mystify the claims) insisted there is a big difference between grades. The only thing I can think of is perhaps this grade is based on the refining technique, and that's where it becomes costly and rare?

I admit, it's something I got well into a while back and it has taken a back seat, but I'm going to do some more research on it.


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## Jakedoodles (Jan 16, 2006)

Ah ha.

http://www.chemcor.net/carnauba.htm


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## Dave KG (Feb 23, 2006)

Wonderdetail said:


> Well, that's what I thought! However, Mrs Wonder did some research for me, and from people outside of the car wax industry (so no reason to mystify the claims) insisted there is a big difference between grades. The only thing I can think of is perhaps this grade is based on the refining technique, and that's where it becomes costly and rare?
> 
> I admit, it's something I got well into a while back and it has taken a back seat, but I'm going to do some more research on it.


Likewise it has been a while since I looked into the grades specifically, and suspect its probably more the refining process than anything else which is at play... From what I remember, carnauba is graded at source: #1 etc... and its generally the top most grade found in waxes, though the chemistry then performed on the wax is very difference...

White carnuaba for example - I beleive this is a refinement done by the wax manufacturers - exactly what chemistry is at play I dont know... bleaching, fine particles (would imagine this would be relevant when it melted)?

I do suspect though that this is where a lot of the further "grading" may come in, from the refinement processes that can cost money to carry out and thus begin changing the prices of the product - but just how much the refining process costs and whether this warrants the increase in prices seen across the wax industry is very much up for debate


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## Dave KG (Feb 23, 2006)

Wonderdetail said:


> Ah ha.
> 
> http://www.chemcor.net/carnauba.htm


Most wax manufacturers, including Meguiars, claim to use #1 on that list - the most expensive... yet #16 costs £12.10, and say Destiny costs £460... is the difference in the refinement process because I cannot see the percentage content accounting for the huge difference? Or is it just all marketing and brand names?


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## rubbishboy (May 6, 2006)

Wonderdetail said:


> Good carnauba is quite difficult to get, and it's quite expensive. The cheapo yellow stuff you can get from anywhere mind, and the rest of the ingredients are readily available. I know this because Mrs Wonder is a soap maker, and some of her soaps have very similar ingredients to car wax!


Your Mrs needs to look harder then. 

Carnauba is graded, T1 being the best quality and lightest colour, it's still yellow though. The darker colours are lower grades get used in shoe polish and things where the colour isn't so important.

T1 is easy to get hold and it isn't massively expensive.


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## rubbishboy (May 6, 2006)

Dave KG said:


> White carnuaba for example - I beleive this is a refinement done by the wax manufacturers - exactly what chemistry is at play I dont know... bleaching, fine particles (would imagine this would be relevant when it melted)?


Yes, white is where they mess around with normal yellow T1 carnauba. Either by making a micronised powder, or by bleaching and altering it.


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## SiGainey (Jan 29, 2006)

PaulN said:


> I think offering a plastic pot at a cheaper price is great business sense which only goes to show Dodo know their customers and what they want.


Whilst I agree in principle, in my case, it didn't work - I found the durability of Supernatural to not be as good as I wanted it to be, so there was no chance I would buy a full tub of it 

Smaller sizes "samples / tasters" are a great idea (as Alan is proving!) but dont work in some cases...


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## Dave KG (Feb 23, 2006)

SiGainey said:


> Whilst I agree in principle, in my case, it didn't work - I found the durability of Supernatural to not be as good as I wanted it to be, so there was no chance I would buy a full tub of it
> 
> Smaller sizes "samples / tasters" are a great idea (as Alan is proving!) but dont work in some cases...


I think the plastic pot being referred to here is a full size plastic pot vs. full size wooden pot as opposed to the panel sample pots... SN now being available in full size plastic for those who dont want to pay extra for a fancy wooden pot...


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## Dave KG (Feb 23, 2006)

rubbishboy said:


> Yes, white is where they mess around with normal yellow T1 carnauba. Either by making a micronised powder, or by bleaching and altering it.


Cheers for confirming that Ben, I was wondering


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## SiGainey (Jan 29, 2006)

Dave KG said:


> I think the plastic pot being referred to here is a full size plastic pot vs. full size wooden pot as opposed to the panel sample pots... SN now being available in full size plastic for those who dont want to pay extra for a fancy wooden pot...


Aha! My bad :thumb:


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## Dodo Factory (Apr 11, 2007)

As Ben has said T1 (or No.1) grade carnauba is light yellow and reasonably priced and reasonably available; it is basically the best carnauba you can get... the grading goes downwards from here, T3, T4 etc.

The wax emulsion page quoted by Wonderdetail briefly mentions this (that No.1 is the best) but it was full of superfluous info regarding the specific emulsions (ie products those guys made dissolving carnauba in solvent and water). Sadly, for Wonderdetail's mrs and associates to get confused, it shows how easy it is to mislead the general public who have less awarness and interest in these materials.

The mythical white carnauba refers to either micronised 'yellow' carnauba, as the powder appears white due to superior reflection of light from the grains, or an ultra-refined grade of T1 yellow carnauba, which is purified with charcoal IIRC, or other 'de-coloured' versions of T1 that are most likely bleached. Wax manufacturers would have you believe that this technique was created solely for the benefit of detailers the world over, and Veyron owners. The reality is that the technique was created because carnauba is used in the food and pharma industries as a coating for food and pills; a white rather than pale yellow colour is preferable for obvious reasons... people prefer their pills to be white! So the procedure refers to T1 yellow (or perhaps less refined grades) with some extra colour removed. I have seen no evidence anywhere of any performance benefit (in car wax terms: shine, durability, beading etc) derived from this complicated extraction of a little extra colour as the benefit is just that - the removal of a little extra colour. Judging from the blank looks of our carnauba importer when we enquired about white carnauba 18 months ago, it is highly unlikely to be a product of any note in real terms... as it is not requested by manufacturers nor ever sold in meaningful quantities, probably because the process is far more expensive than any benefit in return. Its main aim will be to provide certain car care products with a perceived benefit and therefore to be marketed as such. If there is a tangible performance benefit in car wax terms to using it, the world would love to hear or read about it - from an independent source if possible.

The reality is that ingredients will always be the smallest cost of a traditionally made carnauba wax costing hundreds or thousands of pounds. The packaging, marketing, distribution, r&d, reseller's margins, third party royalties etc will all be of more significance. There are no 'magic solvents' that allow ludicrous carnauba percentages to be cleverly dissolved. It is just smoke and mirrors.

If people want to purchase these products, good luck to them. But if they want to know where their money is going, they should do a little research and look past the bluffing. That is why Supernatural is in a plastic container costs less than Supernatural in a wooden container. The wooden container is hideously expensive compared to a generic plastic pot. _You are paying for the packaging._ We don't hide that fact. Buy it with the packaging or without. That is where the money goes.

When we improved Supernatural recently with a v2 formula, as part of continual product development and to increase the durability of the original formulation (which some still found to be OK, but we listen to all criticsm and got on with improving the wax anyway), we incurred thousands of pounds of lab time to bring it to market. We could perhaps have divided this by likely sales and added it on; maybe we would have been justified to do so. But manufacturers must make sacrifices themselves to remain competitive and the consumer shouldn't always pay, so we wrote these costs off and SNv2 is the same price as Snv1.

You can therefore see how costs of boutique waxes can be much higher than mass produced rivals - the r&d of Megs 26 will probably have long been paid off and its cost spread over thousands of units. Solaris has to work pretty damn hard in comparison - and sell at least one or two to cover its development.


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## Guest (Aug 22, 2008)

Thanks Dom about the info on the v2.

Think Ben's thread about making wax should of been a sticky when it was done, so many new members wont have read it.


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## Neil_S (Oct 26, 2005)

matt1263 said:


> Think Ben's thread about making wax should of been a sticky when it was done, so many new members wont have read it.


And as if by magic...


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## Guest (Aug 22, 2008)

Thanks

Might just go and read it all again :lol:


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## mattyb95 (Apr 21, 2008)

When is SN v2 coming out?


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## Dodo Factory (Apr 11, 2007)

It is out already. All SN we make now is v2.
There may still be stocks of v1 out there though, but ALL plastic 200ml pots are filled with v2.


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## mattyb95 (Apr 21, 2008)

Dodo Factory said:


> It is out already. All SN we make now is v2.
> There may still be stocks of v1 out there though, but ALL plastic 200ml pots are filled with v2.


Thanks!
What about the sample pots?


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## Dodo Factory (Apr 11, 2007)

All sample pots leaving the Dodo Factory are v2. Not sure how many v1 are still in circulation though, so you'd have to check with resellers re how recently they took stock.


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## needhampr (Feb 13, 2006)

Slightly off topic - sorry, but is it just improved durability the SN v2 offers.
Just applied 3 coats of SN v1 (panel pot) and am very impressed. Will the V2 be just as easy to apply / remove?


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## Dodo Factory (Apr 11, 2007)

Yeah, errm, better discuss this on the Dodo forum as this should go back on topic. But very quickly, the overall recipe was improved. Sheeting is probably the most noticeable improvement. It's probably even easier to apply as softer, just as easy to buff.


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## Andyuk911 (Sep 10, 2006)

So, there is no such thing as natural white carnauba .. just yellow - right ?

So how can this well know phrase be true ?

***** Royale Glaze contains 70% Brazilian No.1 White Carnauba by volume.


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## Dodo Factory (Apr 11, 2007)

Ask Z****.


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## Dave KG (Feb 23, 2006)

Andyuk911 said:


> So, there is no such thing as natural white carnauba .. just yellow - right ?
> 
> So how can this well know phrase be true ?
> 
> ***** Royale Glaze contains 70% Brazilian No.1 White Carnauba by volume.


It contains 70% Brazilian No. 1 Yellow Carnuaba by "volume", refined to be white carnuaba...

Perhaps, just a suggestion??


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## Guest (Aug 23, 2008)

Andyuk911 said:


> So, there is no such thing as natural white carnauba .. just yellow - right ?
> 
> So how can this well know phrase be true ?
> 
> ***** Royale Glaze contains 70% Brazilian No.1 White Carnauba by volume.


It could be true, because it is. I 'think' most manufacturers are stating numbers like 70% to mean "70% of the WAX Components in the formula" out of a 100% wax content in the container. The rest of the container comprising their proprietary constituents. Whether it is white or yellow, it's still T-1 Carnauba. it's just been refined. So when you buy flour, it will say 100% wheat, but it doesn't say that it's been bleached. Perhaps you didn't read where Dom said that T-1 is usually micronized to achieve a white look.

Dodo has 2 white Carnauba pots.


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## trhland (Sep 22, 2007)

Dave KG said:


> Carnauba content is a very thorny issue - I dont recall anywhere where ***** have specifically said how they measure the 60-odd% in Vintage, and 70% in Royale but the 70% content Flat Earth is certainly a very interesting demonstration that begs the question: are there solvents that allow you to have 70% concentration, or are they measuring it a different way? I suspect the latter but until ***** themselves give a ********** answer we will never know - something I would very much like to know, especially given other manufacturer's willingness to highlight how they measure their quantities...
> 
> Indeed and I agree - up to a point. Supply and demand, cannot argue with that one as for as long as people will pay hundreds, or thousands of pounds for a wax, they will be sold for that.
> 
> ...


 i actually called Z and asked them how do they come about the high carnuaba in lets say soloris? royal ect? how do you measure this? is it measured dry or wet carnuaba? and the guy i talked to said umm no idea!!! ill have to get back to you whats ur number? i gave it to him and said i look foward to hearing back . and well that was months ago.. no call back


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## trhland (Sep 22, 2007)

*it seems after reading many threads about high end waxes. some of us feel the need to think that $1100usd pot of wax is alot nicer then $500usd wax. i think most of this is just trying to justify the money spent. i bought b.o.s. it was $250usd and its a great wax .. but not anybetter then $85,00usd (souveran) ... might last longer thats about it ..*


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## trhland (Sep 22, 2007)

i could say my truck has (soloris )on it would anyone know???


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## mattyb95 (Apr 21, 2008)

trhland said:


> i could say my truck has (soloris )on it would anyone know???


Yes as you've said before it has Swissvax on it!


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## lanciamug (May 18, 2008)

I know its been posted many times before, but it really is very refreshing to have such honest contributions from DoDo Dom. If only all businesses were as open.


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## little john (Jun 10, 2007)

The only benefit that I can see to the yellow and white carnauba content based on measuring methods etc

T1 yellow usually comes in flake form where white is micronised/powdered yellow. now fill a jar to the 70% mark with both types as this is how we believe it is measured in the Z waxes. The flake yellow would have more air space between the flakes the white would have few if any gaps. as a result there is more carnauba in a wax using white than yellow. when the yellow is melted the level would drop a lot more down the jar than the white would but the white would still drop just not so far.


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## Guest (Aug 23, 2008)

But thats not how its made.

The only reason I can see for saying "white" is to lead people on.

The difference in end result between yellow & white will be very small.


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## blake_jl (Apr 26, 2008)

The question people should be asking is about the Carnauba "sap" they claim to use.

Royale states right at the end 70% Brazilian #1 White Carnauba SAP by volume.


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