# Prices, quality and peformance question



## Red_Cloverleaf (Jul 26, 2009)

What makes a £40 priced wax any "better" than a £20 priced wax and what makes a £60 priced wax "better" than a £40 priced wax?

Also..............

What makes a £15ish priced paint cleaner and better than IPA/Distilled water at £2.50 (including the bottle and sprayhead)?

Just a general question, no suggestion of any specific manufacturer or their specific product(s).


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## Avanti (Jan 17, 2006)

Depends, RG42 looks more pleasing than FK2685 anytime I have applied them after the very similar prep proceedure


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## Red_Cloverleaf (Jul 26, 2009)

"Depends" - On?

"Pleasing" - In what way?


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## Avanti (Jan 17, 2006)

Red_Cloverleaf said:


> "Depends" - On?
> 
> "Pleasing" - In what way?


Well any price band gives a shine, some still give the same glow weeks later after washes and no top up, that is what I find with the £40+ products, (I'm yet to try on the other end of the scale £8 Simoniz vs £20 colli 476


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## Red_Cloverleaf (Jul 26, 2009)

Avanti said:


> Well any price band gives a shine, some still give the same glow weeks later after washes and no top up, that is what I find with the £40+ products, (I'm yet to try on the other end of the scale £8 Simoniz vs £20 colli 476


Thanks for that, much appreciated.

And the cleanser v IPA and H20 issue?


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## Auto Finesse (Jan 10, 2007)

Paint cleansers tend to be a light abrasive polish, so not anything like IPA.


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## Red_Cloverleaf (Jul 26, 2009)

james b said:


> Paint cleansers tend to be a light abrasive polish, so not anything like IPA.


I'd use a polish if that was what I wanted (which I didn't, in this instance).

Polish price when compared to £2.50 IPA/water if that's the comparisson you'd prefer..........


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## The Doctor (Sep 11, 2007)

The packaging and sometimes (not always) the amount of research that has gone into a product.


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## drive 'n' shine (Apr 22, 2006)

Red_Cloverleaf said:


> I'd use a polish if that was what I wanted (which I didn't, in this instance).
> 
> Polish price when compared to £2.50 IPA/water if that's the comparisson you'd prefer..........


that's like comparing apples with oranges


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## Avanti (Jan 17, 2006)

Red_Cloverleaf said:


> Thanks for that, much appreciated.
> 
> And the cleanser v IPA and H20 issue?


I have no input on that score yet as I'm using AS finishing glaze as my pre wax cleaner (which I donated some out and the report came back that is is 'as good as' or no different in performance to a well popular product on the forum )
That said when I eventually get around to getting my next car, I will add something like BoS to my armoury, I'm yet to try glass cleaner on a whole car as a substitute for 50/50 IPA


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## -Raven- (Aug 26, 2010)

I would say the boutique hand crafted waxes tend to cost more, and have higher quality ingredients than mass produced waxes. A boutique wax makes you feel special too. I just want to keep on waxing with my vic's concours, I don't get that feeling with other waxes.

I prefer panelwipe and IPA to paint cleaner. Not sure if paint cleaner 'deep cleans' the paint any better to be honest.


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## Avanti (Jan 17, 2006)

Post #6 in this thread clinched the deal for me (hope it was a wax the author used on this occasion


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## Auto Finesse (Jan 10, 2007)

Red_Cloverleaf said:


> I'd use a polish if that was what I wanted (which I didn't, in this instance).
> 
> Polish price when compared to £2.50 IPA/water if that's the comparisson you'd prefer..........


No need to give it all that when someone answers your question is there? really  :wall:

IPA dont do the same as a polish, IPA will work like a solvent cleaner and just leave the surface as it is, minus anything that was on it, (ie wax, glazes, oils etc) a polish will contain abrasives, that will cut the finish slightly, and most will contain oils and glazes that will enhance the finish slightly (good if you have not corrected the paint fully)


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## Red_Cloverleaf (Jul 26, 2009)

drive 'n' shine said:


> that's like comparing apples with oranges


Rubbish.

Machine polished last month, I wanted to remove existing layers. No need to polish or "cleanse" again so your point is irrelevant and a £15 cleanser is £12.50 move expensive that the IPA mix and will give no benefit.

Back to the original qustion...............


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## Red_Cloverleaf (Jul 26, 2009)

james b said:


> No need to give it all that when someone answers your question is there? really  :wall:
> 
> IPA dont do the same as a polish, IPA will work like a solvent cleaner and just leave the surface as it is, minus anything that was on it, (ie wax, glazes, oils etc) a polish will contain abrasives, that will cut the finish slightly, and most will contain oils and glazes that will enhance the finish slightly (good if you have not corrected the paint fully)


Please read further and you will see that conclusions have been jumped to. As usual. :wall::wall::wall::wall::wall::wall::wall::wall::wall::wall::wall:

Question therefore not answered at all. :wall::wall::wall::wall::wall:


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## HeavenlyDetail (Sep 22, 2006)

Avanti said:


> Post #6 in this thread clinched the deal for me (hope it was a wax the author used on this occasion


Ah ha 
Im not saying what was on it at that stage but im afraid regardless of what people think or say i used just about every wax possible on that car from petes 53 upto Royale eventually and simply put a boutique wax looked and felt miles apart. Why people rate products like collonite 476 ill never know , its the most stale finish ive ever had on a car and using one car as a benchmark over and over again with a multitude of waxes wont sway me on that opinion.


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## Avanti (Jan 17, 2006)

Heavenly said:


> Ah ha
> Im not saying what was on it at that stage but im afraid regardless of what people think or say i used just about every wax possible on that car from petes 53 upto Royale eventually and simply put a boutique wax looked and felt miles apart. *Why people rate products like collonite 476 ill never know* , its the most stale finish ive ever had on a car and using one car as a benchmark over and over again with a multitude of waxes wont sway me on that opinion.


Because it comes in a big tub and last ages  is a common reply I see, the most expensive wax I have purchased cost me £26 that was previously owned, the products I have that do have an RRP of the £40 plus I do find leave a warm glow finish I like to look at especially the RG42 and smartwax concours


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## catch the pigeo (May 17, 2008)

Red_Cloverleaf said:


> I'd use a polish if that was what I wanted (which I didn't, in this instance).
> 
> Polish price when compared to £2.50 IPA/water if that's the comparisson you'd prefer..........





Red_Cloverleaf said:


> Please read further and you will see that conclusions have been jumped to. As usual. :wall::wall::wall::wall::wall::wall::wall::wall::wall::wall::wall:
> 
> Question therefore not answered at all. :wall::wall::wall::wall::wall:


You seem to have already made your mind up so why bother asking?


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## drive 'n' shine (Apr 22, 2006)

Red_Cloverleaf said:


> Rubbish.
> 
> Machine polished last month, I wanted to remove existing layers. No need to polish or "cleanse" again so your point is irrelevant and a £15 cleanser is £12.50 move expensive that the IPA mix and will give no benefit.
> 
> Back to the original qustion...............


I bow down to your superior knowledge then..... 

I was always told never to argue with an idiot, they beat you every time with experience :thumb:

No wonder so many people no longer post on here........


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## chrisc (Jun 15, 2008)

Why people rate products like collonite 476 ill never know

because it lasts for ages.
And makes snow slide off paintwork easier my dad says while useing garden brush:wall:


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## HeavenlyDetail (Sep 22, 2006)

chrisc said:


> Why people rate products like collonite 476 ill never know
> 
> because it lasts for ages.
> And makes snow slide off paintwork easier my dad says while useing garden brush:wall:


I suppose that where we are different , to me its about how grand a car looks not how long something i cant see lasts , id get a clear wrap if that was my concern.


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## chrisc (Jun 15, 2008)

Heavenly said:


> I suppose that where we are different , to me its about how grand a car looks not how long something i cant see lasts , id get a clear wrap if that was my concern.


And that's hit the nail on the head we are different and different people look for different stuff:thumb:.
It's all down to the level one wants to acheive and what one is happy with.
Personaly i would just use every thing autosmart because im happy with it and know i get the results i want.And a bit of bilthamber.


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## HeavenlyDetail (Sep 22, 2006)

But isnt the whole point of detailing to get the ultimate finish from a car , i can rewax a car to give exactly the same protection as a wax made from petrochemicals and still have a visually better finish?


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## Auto Finesse (Jan 10, 2007)

Red_Cloverleaf said:


> Rubbish.
> 
> Machine polished last month, I wanted to remove existing layers. No need to polish or "cleanse" again so your point is irrelevant and a £15 cleanser is £12.50 move expensive that the IPA mix and will give no benefit.
> 
> Back to the original qustion...............





Red_Cloverleaf said:


> Please read further and you will see that conclusions have been jumped to. As usual. :wall::wall::wall::wall::wall::wall::wall::wall::wall::wall::wall:
> 
> Question therefore not answered at all. :wall::wall::wall::wall::wall:


Good god :tumbleweed: you dont have a clue what your talking about :wall::lol::lol:

Im not going to get dragged in to an argument here (altho i think i already have by trying to pass on a little knowledge) but you need to go learn a little about the fundamentals and basics of these products.

In the instance you describe you kind of have used a pre wax cleanser, what did you use with your machine and pad? POLISH, like i already said a pre wax cleanser is _basically_ a light polish, so you have used something alike a pre wax cleanser prior already, hence no need to further polish (in the form of using a pre wax cleanser by hand)

But IPA is NOTHING! alike a polish, and the results and effects of using isopropyl alcohol to wipe a panel down is not the same as using a polish.

So as rightly stated your trying to compare apples and oranges.

And you have had your question answered, you just dont like the answer because it dont match what you think you already know.


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## The Doctor (Sep 11, 2007)

Heavenly said:


> But isnt the whole point of detailing to get the ultimate finish from a car , i can rewax a car to give exactly the same protection as a wax made from petrochemicals and still have a visually better finish?


More expensive waxes contain petrochemicals just like less expensive waxes.


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## HeavenlyDetail (Sep 22, 2006)

The Doctor said:


> More expensive waxes contain petrochemicals just like less expensive waxes.


but not by the truck load  Jesus you only have to lift the lid on 476 and its a better high than a line.


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## chrisc (Jun 15, 2008)

Heavenly said:


> But isnt the whole point of detailing to get the ultimate finish from a car , i can rewax a car to give exactly the same protection as a wax made from petrochemicals and still have a visually better finish?


If thats what your looking for yes but like i said it's what ever that person is happy with.


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## The Doctor (Sep 11, 2007)

Heavenly said:


> but not by the truck load


Not if you believe the marketing 

Swissvax Mystery for example is at the very least 60% Alkanes :car:


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## Avanti (Jan 17, 2006)

The Doctor said:


> More expensive waxes contain petrochemicals just like less expensive waxes.


Indeed they do, but I'm sure it's not just about what is in the ingredients but the blend and quantities of them too.
a bar of chocolate that was 95% cocoa may not please the chocolate lover as much as a bar of Galaxy or asda smart price lager is not going to taste like peroni reserve even though they contain essentially the same ingredients


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## The Doctor (Sep 11, 2007)

Avanti said:


> Indeed they do, but I'm sure it's not just about what is in the ingredients but the blend and quantities of them too.
> a bar of chocolate that was 95% cocoa may not please the chocolate lover as much as a bar of Galaxy or asda smart price lager is not going to taste like peroni reserve even though they contain essentially the same ingredients


To be fair i was simply pointing out that more expensive boutique waxes contain petrochemicals. Marks post came across like he was suggesting his expensive waxes dont contain them and thats why they give 'him' a better finish.

Its all about the silicones!!!


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## HeavenlyDetail (Sep 22, 2006)

The Doctor said:


> To be fair i was simply pointing out that more expensive boutique waxes contain petrochemicals. Marks post came across like he was suggesting his expensive waxes dont contain them and thats why they give 'him' a better finish.
> 
> Its all about the silicones!!!


I totally take your point but it was a slight tongue in cheek crack that 476 is rather one sided in its smell a bit like comparing a flower shop to the local Esso.


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## Avanti (Jan 17, 2006)

The Doctor said:


> To be fair i was simply pointing out that more expensive boutique waxes contain petrochemicals. Marks post came across like he was suggesting his expensive waxes dont contain them and thats why they give 'him' a better finish.
> 
> Its all about the silicones!!!


Ah , I see .
I suppose like others mention it is about what the achiever wants, I do believe the look is the overall goal vs durability, but even then something like say RG55 is going to give both and hence easily worth the price compared to a budget wax , I wouldn't feel I have saved £30 or £40 as a tub of each would last a long time or certainly many applications, the more consumables like glass cleaner, shampoos or tyre dressing that's a different story


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## The Doctor (Sep 11, 2007)

Heavenly said:


> I totally take your point but it was a slight tongue in cheek crack that 476 is rather one sided in its smell a bit like comparing a flower shop to the local Esso.


No probs, i just have a phobia of the marketing tripe that some wax manufacturers come out with. :thumb:


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## twiggy99 (Nov 21, 2010)

It can be a number of factors which can determine the products price, research, contents, size, manufacturing quantities and to an extent marketing and branding of the wax. 

So the price doesn't make a wax better than another its everything else listed above and all of the above is down to personal preference and circumstance so there isn't really a black and white answer its down to you, trial and error.

I like to use collinite 476 over the winter, apply it and done for a good few months then spring summer and autumn I like to use super natural as it gives a much deeper shine (in my opinion) than the collinite but offers less durability, but in the summer months being out in a garage is more of a joy than a chore for me.


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## Avanti (Jan 17, 2006)

twiggy99 said:


> It can be a number of factors which can determine the products price, research, contents, size, manufacturing quantities and to an extent marketing and branding of the wax.
> 
> So the price doesn't make a wax better than another its everything else listed above and all of the above is down to personal preference and circumstance so there isn't really a black and white answer its down to you, trial and error.
> 
> *I like to use collinite 476 over the winter, apply it and done for a good few months then spring summer and autumn I like to use super natural as it gives a much deeper shine (in my opinion) than the collinite but offers less durability, but in the summer months being out in a garage is more of a joy than a chore for me*.


This is thing though, many waxes will survive a UK winter, so whilst there maybe hype around boutique products , there is certainly a misconception around budget products too, don't you believe the supernatural would have withstood the winter?
The thread the big wax test, did not have the usual rumoured products as proving most durable


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## Mr Yellow (Apr 30, 2009)

Somehow not mentioned are the fact that many boutique type products are made by smallish companies. They have high production costs because they will tend to make small batches. They will have high raw material costs because they will buy smaller quantities. They will have high packaging costs, again, because of low volume. As a manufacturer I can guarantee you that this is a big factor. If you are making hundreds of tonnes of a product, you can sell it with a few pence profit per litre. If you are relying on one tonne - you wont survive on that kind of margin. Summary - boutique products cost big bucks because they are boutique!

Now, this depends on the product, to be honest. My personal opinion is that car shampoos, as an example, are never 'boutique'. If you are buying such a product, you are either being 'had' or are so convinced that more £ is better, that you are convincing yourself of it! The simple fact is that some product types will be based around a very few ingredients. No matter what the precise formulation is, it will not be worth 5 times more than a 'non-boutique' equivalent.


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## twiggy99 (Nov 21, 2010)

x12yhp like I said "manufacturing quantities" I'm with you 100% on that one.

Avanti I can't say the supernatural would/wouldn't survive the winter as well as I have never done a 50/50 on my car with it against the SN. I have used the colli for many years and it has never let me down and at £20 for a 18oZ it has and is going to last me ages can't really argue with it.


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## james_death (Aug 9, 2010)

Lots of variables, some find a given wax better for a given colour and or price bracket.
A key point made a few times is the longevity we all like longevity but to be honest the most of us cant stop putting more stuff on its often a real pleasure and calming experiance.
I there was an absolute stunning finish product that only lasted a month but retained that look for the month that would be fine for me, i would want a longer lasting look that was so stunning but truth be told i would have something else on in 3/4 weeks max most likely...:lol:

I have the migliore fruitta i got it on recomendation for my BRG rover but i tried it on the black polo and cant see anything special at all in it...

But thats not the car i bought it for but still not had it on the rover yet as been off the road months...:lol:


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## -Raven- (Aug 26, 2010)

Avanti said:


> Ah , I see .
> I suppose like others mention it is about what the achiever wants, I do believe the look is the overall goal vs durability, but even then something like say RG55 is going to give both and hence easily worth the price compared to a budget wax , I wouldn't feel I have saved £30 or £40 as a tub of each would last a long time or certainly many applications, the more consumables like glass cleaner, shampoos or tyre dressing that's a different story


That's a major point right there! One I always like to make too.

A tub of wax lasts years, regardless of how long it lasts on the paint. For that reason alone, it's worthwhile splashing out on something that looks decent!


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## Red_Cloverleaf (Jul 26, 2009)

james b said:


> Good god :tumbleweed: you dont have a clue what your talking about :wall::lol::lol:
> 
> Im not going to get dragged in to an argument here (altho i think i already have by trying to pass on a little knowledge) but you need to go learn a little about the fundamentals and basics of these products.
> 
> ...


That was nice and patronising. Typical, really.:thumb:


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## Deano (Jul 7, 2006)

can we keep this friendly please gentlemen. cheers.


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## Avanti (Jan 17, 2006)

twiggy99 said:


> x12yhp like I said "manufacturing quantities" I'm with you 100% on that one.
> 
> Avanti I can't say the supernatural would/wouldn't survive the winter as well as I have never done a 50/50 on my car with it against the SN. I have used the colli for many years and it has never let me down and at £20 for a 18oZ it has and is going to last me ages can't really argue with it.


I have never used SN yet, but I have every confidence it will last out just as well as Colli through a winter , and also there are cheaper waxes than colli that will last a winter quite comfortably for less than £10 :thumb:


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## The Cueball (Feb 8, 2007)

Red_Cloverleaf said:


> What makes a £40 priced wax any "better" than a £20 priced wax and what makes a £60 priced wax "better" than a £40 priced wax?
> 
> Also..............
> 
> ...


Marketing and user perception...

The first one you can count by the ££££ both spent and made...the second you can argue and get all upset about 'till the cows come home as there is no answer....

:thumb:


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## Avanti (Jan 17, 2006)

The Cueball said:


> Marketing and user perception...
> 
> *The first one you can count by the ££££ both spent and made...the second you can argue and get all upset about 'till the cows come home as there is no answer....*
> 
> :thumb:


That is so true as it works both ways as we have witnessed during this thread


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## The Cueball (Feb 8, 2007)

Avanti said:


> That is so true as it works both ways as we have witnessed during this thread


One man's gold is another sh***

As we all know it's not reserved just for the detailing people....every product and market in the world has an "basic", "mid range" and "thebest".

It's up to the end user to make their choice based on their knowledge (or lack of it in most cases)

People will fight for their perception as they feel they need to justify the choice they have made........

:thumb:


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## big ben (Aug 25, 2009)

Red_Cloverleaf said:


> What makes a £40 priced wax any "better" than a £20 priced wax and what makes a £60 priced wax "better" than a £40 priced wax?
> 
> Also..............
> 
> ...


what makes a £80 tshirt better than a £2 tshirt? same things really, people like the packaging, durability, ease of use, smell, the special feeling you get etc...

You dont come across as someone who would spend that sort of money on a wax anyway from what i read on here, so why do you want to know? or do you just enjoy stirring it up causing arguments? maybe you should just buy a £20, £40 and £60 wax and let us know the differences 

Also, a decent paint cleaner will remove the wax and prep the surface ready for an LSP on decent paintwork, an ipa wipedown wont remove the wax fully and shouldnt be used to remove wax IMO


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## Red_Cloverleaf (Jul 26, 2009)

big ben said:


> what makes a £80 tshirt better than a £2 tshirt? same things really, people like the packaging, durability, ease of use, smell, the special feeling you get etc...
> 
> You dont come across as someone who would spend that sort of money on a wax anyway from what i read on here, so why do you want to know? or do you just enjoy stirring it up causing arguments? maybe you should just buy a £20, £40 and £60 wax and let us know the differences
> 
> Also, a decent paint cleaner will remove the wax and prep the surface ready for an LSP on decent paintwork, an ipa wipedown wont remove the wax fully and shouldnt be used to remove wax IMO


If you'd taken the time to read the orinial question you would know;

"Just a general question, no suggestion of any specific manufacturer or their specific product(s)."

I also own waxes priced from about £5.99 up to £60, just so you're clear.


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## deanie-b (Nov 8, 2010)

Is it only me that after reading this thread thinks " How can people argue over products used to clean a car? ". 

With regards to the comments earlier, I agree that the finish that each person is happy with is what they are striving for. There is no 'universal' perfection in this game, I like carnauba. You like Synthetic polymer? Contrasting opinions yes, but need for an argument? 

We are searching for different levels of perfection, otherwise we'd all be using turtlewax and be happy :thumb: .

With regards to cleansing panels, do as you wish :wave:


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## Avanti (Jan 17, 2006)

big ben said:


> what makes a £80 tshirt better than a £2 tshirt? same things really, people like the packaging, durability, ease of use, smell, the special feeling you get etc...
> 
> You dont come across as someone who would spend that sort of money on a wax anyway from what i read on here, so why do you want to know? or do you just enjoy stirring it up causing arguments? maybe you should just buy a £20, £40 and £60 wax and let us know the differences
> 
> Also, a decent paint cleaner will remove the wax and prep the surface ready for an LSP on decent paintwork, an ipa wipedown wont remove the wax fully and shouldnt be used to remove wax IMO


I don't think the OP was necessarily causing an argument it's just debate and it's not the 1st thread of this kind, and it's not necessarily the boutique product owners trying to justify their purchase.
I would say it is more often the budget price product user that is justifying their purchase.
I don't even feel getting a £20, 40 & £60 product is the direct answer.
The time a user has purchased all 3 that is £120. 
How many posts have I read where the user has demoted their fk1000p to just the alloys or had to boost it with a £20 bottle of spray, that can't be their imagination can it?


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## Avanti (Jan 17, 2006)

deanie-b said:


> Is it only me that after reading this thread thinks " How can people argue over products used to clean a car? ".
> 
> With regards to the comments earlier, I agree that the finish that each person is happy with is what they are striving for. There is no 'universal' perfection in this game, I like carnauba. You like Synthetic polymer? Contrasting opinions yes, but need for an argument?
> 
> ...


Some are using just TW and happy 
That line in itself is part of the substance of this thread, TW ain't bad, it's just not fashionable on DW and will get mocked :speechles


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## 182_Blue (Oct 25, 2005)

Red_Cloverleaf said:


> If you'd taken the time to read the orinial question you would know;
> 
> "Just a general question, no suggestion of any specific manufacturer or their specific product(s)."
> 
> I also own waxes priced from about £5.99 up to £60, just so you're clear.


In that case, you can find out for yourself about them and i will lock this :thumb:


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