# Leather Fat liquoring and Conditioning



## TOGWT (Oct 26, 2005)

Many of the following statements are controversial and are polar opposite of popular leather care practices recommended by leather care product manufacturers. I've found that some leather care myths are deliberately perpetuated by the industry, especially those on the use of oil-based leather conditioners and others are just common errors of judgment.

_ [Fat liquor is not volatile nor migratory, so leather is not going to lose it. However, along with the fat liquor, the other critical factor is moisture. Any leather is going to lose its moisture in a hot car. Although leather seems dry, it is not. Of course too much moisture quickly leads to mould and mildew problems, so soaking it down is not reasonable. Ideally, exposure to humid atmosphere will help balance the effect of over drying on hot days. Leather is very dynamic with respect to moisture content, meaning moisture comes and goes easily under normal circumstances....]_ American Leather Chemists Association

Leather, at the time of completion of the tannage does not contain sufficient lubricants to prevent it from drying into a hard mass. Almost all light leathers need a greater softness and flexibility than is imparted by tannage. This is attained in the fat liquoring process by introducing oil into the leather, so that the individual fibres are uniformly coated. The percentage of oil on the weight of leather is quite small, from 3-10 %. The precise manner in which this small quantity of oil is distributed throughout the leather materially affects the subsequent finishing operations and the character of the leather.

Proper lubrication or fat liquoring greatly affects the physical properties of break, stretch, stitch tear, tensile strength, and comfort of leather. Over lubrication will result in excessive softness and raggy leather in the bellies and flanks. Under lubrication, or improper penetration, results in hard bony leather that may crack in use.

To allow a small amount of oil to be spread uniformly over a very large surface of the leather fibres it is necessary to dilute the oil. Although this could be done with a true solvent such as benzene, it is cheaper, safer and more convenient to use the method of emulsification. In an emulsion with water, the oil is dispersed in microscopically small droplets, giving it a white, milky appearance. 
It is important that the oil drops in water should remain as an emulsion until they penetrate the leather, and should not separate out as large drops or as a layer of oil, which could not penetrate the leather fibre and would only give a greasy surface layer.

All cowhides are naturally oily, unfortunately, these natural oils are stripped away in the tanning process (tanning is a process using a water vat and chromium salts to preserve hides and prepare them to absorb dyes) and some equivalent oils must be re-introduced after tanning. This step, the replacement of oils, is called fat liquoring.

Over the centuries, a number of oils have been found that have a natural affinity for leather fibres. Every leather tanner has his own, unique, blend of tanning oils. These formulas are closely held secrets, passed down through the generations.
In almost all situations fat liquors are designed to be applied to leather in the form of an aqueous emulsion that is 'oil in water emulsion'. A fat liquor emulsion can be of various particle sizes. If the emulsion is coarse it will have a particle size of around 0.1 µ (micron) and will have a milky appearance. In this situation, the penetration of these fat liquors is restricted to the surface of the leather. If the particle size is around 0.03µ then the emulsion is translucent, and because of the smaller size these can generally penetrate more deeply into the fibre structure. Emulsions of 0.005µ are classified as micro-emulsions; they are relatively clear and give good penetration

_ Note: 0.3 µ is the largest particle size that can fit through a HEPA filter_

_[In the fat liquoring process, both the penetration and the fixation of fatty matter take place. In order to optimise penetration into the leather structure, fat liquor must be emulsified in water and added to the processing vessel. The mechanical effects caused by the drum rotation, the surface tension and the capillary action of the hides, all promote penetration of the fat liquor into the structure. Fixation of this fat liquor is achieved by adding acid products at the end of the process.

Fat liquoring is usually carried out in a drum at the highest temperature practical for the type of leather, or about 113.oF (45° C) for vegetable tanned leather and 140-150.OF (60 to 65° C) for full chrome tanned leather. Fr the best results ideal rotational speed of the fat liquoring drum should be around 12-16 RPM for 30 to 40 minutes. After drumming, the leathers are usually struck out on the flesh side, carefully set out to smooth the grain, nailed or toggled out flat to dry, or paste dried. Strict control over the initial pH of the fat liquoring bath & the final pH of the exhaust bath should be maintained so as to achieve uniform fat content and fat distribution in leather and to avoid many fat splitting problems.]_ Source leatherbiz.com Technical Articles Library

Modern fat liquors are technically advanced using high quality specially processed natural and synthetic oils that meet very high specifications. These are typically fully reacted to the fibre structure, and as a consequence only minimal amounts can migrate out of the leather. Because of this low migration continually adding creams and lotions to replace lost oils is therefore no longer necessary.

Leather Conditioning

Modern automotive finished leather upholstery used by 95% of OEM is a multi strata covering over the leather hide; pigmentation (colour) and an abrasion resistant urethane. Finished leather s only requirement is to be kept clean and protected, urethane doesn't require conditioning

The following are factual details that leather care manufacturers would rather you didn't know. 
_[There are numerous leather conditioning products in the marketplace, and they generally have the same overall function: to preserve the performance and aesthetics of leather. This can be achieved by:
•	Replenishing the lubricating oils ("fat liquors") that have been oxidized and otherwise lost during its lifetime, and/or;

•	Replacing moisture lost through evaporation.

However, leather is a very chemically complex material, and if the conditioning product is incompatible with it in any way, it can exert a damaging effect:
Finish peeling, finish cracking, color transfer ("crocking"), yellowing, and general leather degradation are some of the problems that can be caused by the application of an improperly formulated, incompatible leather treatment product.]_ Leather Research Laboratory

When leather tanners talk about conditioning leather they are referring to re-hydration; not the replenishment or replacement of the fat liquoring oils and waxes. The only 'conditioning' required for finished leather upholstery is hydration; oil-based products cannot permeate the finish leather (urethane pigmentation and / or covering) that is used in 95% plus of modern automobiles.

Modern leather needs to be kept hydrated with moisture to ensure the leather remains flexible and maintains its soft tactile feel. This is done by regularly wiping the surface with a damp 100% cotton micro fibre towel and by using aqueous (water- based) leather care products. There is no reason to use oil-based leather care products to condition or feed leather hides

Aqueous (water- based) products are able to permeate deep into the hide, unlike oil, due to its larger particles, whereas water particles are smaller than both oil and the molecules of urethane, which enables aqueous (water- based) products to permeate and provide hydration, which is essential for suppleness recovery.

Particulate size - you can tell how small the emulsion droplets are and in some cases how concentrated an emulsion is by its colour. Opaque white emulsions typically have a large particle size, while faintly opaque or pearlescent emulsions typically have a small particle size approaching 1µ or less. 

Water - unlike other organic or hydrocarbon-based solvents, is non-flammable, odourless, non-toxic and non-sensitizing to the skin and it doesn't impart a greasy or tacky feel to the surface of the leather

I have discussed this issue with many people in both the leather tanning and leather care products industry and some specialised industrial chemists who have worked in the leather manufacture and care industry for 35 plus years. As specialists in leather care they had a much better understanding of what the ideal product is for maintaining finished leather surface used in automotive leather upholstery and I asked the following questions. 

(a) _How much conditioner will get through the cross-linked urethane coating on the leather? 
_
(b) _A chrome tanned leather hide is sealed at the tannery and then pigmented; what could a conditioner do for the hide?_

We discussed the products that are currently being used and the consensus was that many of the products simply were not suitable for the current finishes used for automotive leather
I looked at a detailing care product vendor site and found nine pages of leather care products, mostly expensive oil-based leather 'conditioners' this could be the reason they ignore an appropriate care product for the upholstery material actually used for automotive (finished leather) upholstery.

1.	How much conditioner will permeate the urethane top coat on a sealed pigmented leather hide? Chrome tanned leather hide is sealed at the tannery and then pigmented; what could a conditioner do for the hide?

2.	If oil is allowed to permeate any micro fissures in the leather or via the stitching it will travel laterally compromising the resin binder system which will delaminate from the hide releasing its adhesive bond. It will then be able to move in a different direction from the hide, which will result in surface fissures and cracking, further compounding the problem eventually leading to the subsequent replacement of the protective covering

3.	The complex tanning process of chromed tanned hides results in the fat liquoring and oils necessary to keep the hide soft and pliable being locked in, this is further sealed by a durable polyethylene covering to protect the hide from abrasion from clothing as well as the dust / dirt introduced by the vehicle's AC system.

4.	The complaint that most leather conditioners are "greasy" is typically attributable to the use of Lanolin. On most leather conditioners the containers label warns against its use on steering wheels as it will make them slippery and unsafe. The oils cannot permeate the leather and therefore remain on the surface; the same thing will apply to seating surfaces; the problem will be exasperated as the oil will attract dirt/grime to the surface

Many so called leather conditioners utilize chemical solvents in order to facilitate penetration of the oils into the urethane covering or the pigmented leather. Most covered leather finishes are water -based and so any solvent or alcohol can begin to cut through them, even if you go over it and you see no colour come off, you have probably compromised the clear protective top coat and possibly the leather's pigmentation (colour).

Solvents will soften the protective covering, which can get tacky very quickly, attracting abrasive dust/dirt and will eventually wear through as it does not have the durability found in the topcoat. What happens when the solvents vaporise - polish and many surface protection products are formulated with oils to enhance the surface or to nourish leather surfaces, neither of which is necessary?

Not all conditioners are alike; some are aqueous (water- based) as opposed to oil-based. Some contains about 90% water, when applied to the leather surface, it appears to "soak in" (hydration) leaving only a very thin film of oil to benefit the surface lubrication (driver or passenger entry / exit). (See also Oil and oil-based Products)

A urethanes fibre structure will stretch in all directions with no particular grain or stress pattern. The urethane surface coating will not withstand multi directional stress, however, and when it's flexed or stretched continuously in the same place the surface coating develops minute cracks. If oil is allowed to permeate any micro fissures in the leather or via the stitching it will compromise the resin binder system and delaminate from the hide releasing its adhesive bond, and it will be able to move in a different direction from the hide, which will result in surface fissures and cracking, further compounding the problem eventually leading to the subsequent replacement of the protective covering

In summary, an aqueous micro emulsion is readily absorbed into the fibres and provides lasting and effective lubrication without migration, while re-hydration leaves leather feeling silky soft and pliable.

Feeding Leather

_[Zymol Treat Leather Conditioner is a solvent-free, banana-oil and collagen-based feeding product that releases trapped solvents and restores moisture to keep your leather looking, feeling, and smelling like new. Helps to reduce the aging process in leather upholstery and trim] _Zymol Website

Older (50 and 60's) automobile upholstery leather and exterior paint was finished with Nitrocellulose lacquer and required oils for it to remain flexible otherwise it would crack. This is where the 'feeding' paint / leather comes from

Leather is the hide removed from a deceased animal and the tanning / curing processes used seal in the necessary oils during the fat liquoring stage, thereby ensuring that the fibres cannot nor, do they need to be fed. Hide foods are something again that can be used in the horse and saddle business or with the older Aniline type dyed leathers.

There is no correlation between how we look after our own skin and how we look after finished leather upholstery, Proteins, Collagen, Lanolin and Aloe are used for human skin reconstruction and nutrition, leather is not like human skin, its dead and cannot be regenerated or revived. 
Many leather treatment theories have grown up around the fact that you need to moisturise skin and so this is wrongly transferred to the care of finished leather, especially when you consider that it has a urethane pigmented coating 

Moisture Content

Leather is hygroscopic and so moisture is the most important element (median 15 %) in the care of leather; all changes in leather are due to moisture differences. Too little moisture (< 10%) will cause the leather to become hard and inflexible, too much (> 20 %) and it may the fibres to swell and may cause mould formation.

Leather's major attribute is its ability to breathe, which it does even better than wool. This means not just its permeability to air but its permeability to water vapour, so allowing the absorption of perspiration and warmth. Thus it feels warm in winter and cool in summer, yet doesn't become hot and sticky.

On the other hand, whilst it absorbs water vapour it doesn't readily absorb liquid, so a light rain will not harm it and a damp cloth can be used to keep it clean

Leather naturally absorbs and retains moisture, meaning it's also susceptible to losing the moisture necessary to keep it pliant and soft. The denaturing process of leather tanning removes moisture from the hide, introducing solvent-based products accelerates aging of the leather.

When leather tanners talk about conditioning leather they are referring to re-hydration; not the replenishment or replacement of the fat liquoring oils and waxes. The only 'conditioning' required for finished leather upholstery is hydration;

The purpose of rehydration is to restore moisture lost through evaporation, so whatever the surface finish it has to allow the movement of moisture back and forth (evaporation and hydration) As leather is porous, it loses its moisture through evaporation at a rate dependent upon two variables; ambient humidity level, and heat. Where ambient conditions are very hot and / or experience very low humidity, finished leather will lose its moisture, which must be replaced.

The breathability of leather allows small particles of moisture to move back and forth through the leather and this is what keeps it in good condition. Once the moisture levels in leather drop due to evaporation or transpiration it becomes dry and brittle, to avoid this it needs to be re-hydrated. 
The recommended frequency for hydration is a function of the environment. For example, in an automobile, the head rests and top of the rear seat backrests tend to dry out very quickly due to direct, prolonged sun exposure.

_Why does leather feel dry or stiff? _

What actually dries out is the leather's moisture, which then leaves the fat liquors stiffer and less flexible (hence the feeling of dryness or stiff leather)

Surface moisture constitutes approximately 10% of finished leathers moisture content, which is subject to evaporation and must be replaced to avoid dehydration. Most of the actual hide's moisture content is provided by the tanner when the fat liquor introduced during the re-tanning process, which maintains the moisture of the corium fibre matrix, allowing them to remain flexible. This fat liquoring is sealed into the hide and under normal circumstances should not require any maintenance

Aqueous (water- based) products restore the lost moisture of finished leather and maintain its natural flexibility. When moisture is replaced the fibres will become flexible again and gives the leather a softer feel. Being in an enclosed space with little to no ventilation will exacerbate dehydration if the leather is subjected to very high temperatures and low humidity conditions the fat liquor oils introduced during the re-tanning process may become destabilised, leading to the finished leather becoming dehydrated.

Apply an aqueous (water- based) product (Leather Master Soft Touch (ex Vital) this is not a conditioner per se but it will revitalise leather that has become dehydrated. It is also excellent for improving the tactile feel of leathers. Apply to surface and allowing it to remain, renewing as necessary. And then apply an aqueous (water- based) protection


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## judyb (Sep 7, 2007)

Thanks for posting this TOGWT brings together very clearly all the advice we have been giving over the years. 
Good to see that our training and advice has not been wasted and am pleased to have been able to give input to your research over the years.
Cheers
Judyb


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## judyb (Sep 7, 2007)

When we started in the industry our Technical Director at the time was an instructor in the USA and this information was the basis of his teaching. If you look back at our posts over the years we have never wavered from this stance and much of this information is what we have been teaching ever since. It is good to see the information so well formatted in a complete post for everyone to understand. 
Our research over the years in conjunction with major tanneries, leather technologists, scientists, product producers and experts in the industry has been on going (we met with leaders in the industry this week) and have always led us to the same conclusions. 

Our current range of products were produced with this information in mind and are now some of the most advanced products available for leather care.

The problems we have now are 2 fold:

1. The general publics' perception of leather care is still deep rooted in the old 'feeding' of leathers. As explained this comes from the production of leathers in the earlier years and which is still used for some leathers such as saddle leather which is used in a very different way to the modern leather we know on our cars and furniture. 
This directs people to use inappropriate products on their leather some of which can lead ultimately to damage to the finish on the leather.
There is a constant minefield of misinformation on the internet and it is unbelievable the things that are used to 'clean' and 'condition' leather.
'Conditioning' leather has been one of the most misused phrases in the industry and has only been perpetuated to increase sales of leather care products which at best do nothing but at worst damage the leather over time leading to expensive repairs. There is no need to 'condition' leather with anything other than water and other added ingredients are unnecessary and potentially damaging.

2. The second problem we have is that leather care product manufacturers are beginning to take on board the fact that conditioning products are not required for modern leathersand it is far better to 'protect' the finish on the leather and so are simply changing the name of their products to 'protectors' without changing the ingredients - somehow implying that adding oils and waxes to the surface of the leather 'protects' it. This leads to greater confusion to those just wanting the best products for their leather.

The active ingredients in true leather protectors are not cheap products and requires very advanced technology to produce. The products need to be used as stand alone products and not as a combination with other chemicals which would only weaken it's effectiveness.
There are now very advanced leather protectors that carry 3 and 5 year guarantees against stains which are ideal for pale coloured car interiors - cleaning of course is still necessary!!

The above information also covers well why leather does not need to be (and is in factimpossible) to re fatliquor. Fatliquors are permanent in most leathers and the little that does migrate could not be effectively replaced by a product through the surface coating. Adding extra fatliquors could cause an imbalance in the leather which may lead to 'spewing' or mould problems.

Hope this helps
Judyb


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## Dr Leather (Sep 8, 2010)

Dear TOGWT 

Read your post - very copy and paste I must say, and in truth this is the fatal part of the internet where mis-information can be replicated over and over again. Consequently you do have certain information incorrect in your post. Would you like me to straighten it out a little for you?????

Oh an you can re-fatliquor leather by the way if it is still just as pieces of leather - it is commonly done.

Rgds,

Dr Leather


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## Grizzle (Jul 12, 2006)

^^ oh here we go again.


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## nick_mcuk (Jan 4, 2008)

Grizzle said:


> ^^ oh here we go again.


Yep agree!.....I am just going to stick to my AG and Zaino Leather care products...they work well produce the results that I want and make the leather feel nice...JOB DONE!


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## TOGWT (Oct 26, 2005)

Is this also incorrect?

[Fatliquoring - This is the wet-end softening process, known as fatliquoring. Oils are added in the tanning or retanning prices to make the hide soft and flexible. In the very old days leather was simply "stuffed" with oils and fats and were left to just sit in the fiber structure.

But over time, the oils migrated out of the leather and consequently the oils had to be replaced at regular intervals and so the idea of "feeding leather" grew in nomenclature and popularity.

If the oils were not replaced the leather would become hard, it would shrink and crack.

But leather manufacturing and the development of sophisticated chemicals has created oils that meet very high specifications. 
These oils are typically full reacted to the fiber structure and as a consequence a minimal amount of the oil will migrate out of the leather. Because of this low migration it is really NOT NECESSARY to continually add conditioners and creams to replace lost oils.] Dr Leather

http://www.autodetailingnetworkforu...t-Want-to-Know-5517356&highlight=fatliquoring


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## judyb (Sep 7, 2007)

Dr Leather said:


> Oh an you can re-fatliquor leather by the way if it is still just as pieces of leather - it is commonly done.


We realise that leather can be re fat liquored at tannery level but this is talking about re fatliquoring once the leather has been used on car interiors - this is a discussion that has gone on for a long time on another forum as there is a product supplier who sells fat liquors to re fat liquor leather as part of the cleaning process.


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## TOGWT (Oct 26, 2005)

Are these also incorrect?

[Fatliquoring - This is the wet-end softening process, known as fatliquoring. Oils are added in the tanning or retanning prices to make the hide soft and flexible. In the very old days leather was simply "stuffed" with oils and fats and were left to just sit in the fiber structure.

But over time, the oils migrated out of the leather and consequently the oils had to be replaced at regular intervals and so the idea of "feeding leather" grew in nomenclature and popularity.

If the oils were not replaced the leather would become hard, it would shrink and crack.
But leather manufacturing and the development of sophisticated chemicals has created oils that meet very high specifications.

These oils are typically full reacted to the fiber structure and as a consequence a minimal amount of the oil will migrate out of the leather. Because of this low migration it is really NOT NECESSARY to continually add conditioners and creams to replace lost oils.] Dr Leather

http://www.autodetailingnetworkforu...t-Want-to-Know-5517356&highlight=fatliquoring

Fatliquoring a point of contention - http://www.autopia.org/forum/car-detailing/137113-leather-fatliquoring-%96-point-contention.html

[Fat liquor is not volatile nor migratory, so leather is not going to lose it. However, along with the fat liquor, the other critical factor is moisture. Any leather is going to lose its moisture in a hot car. Although leather seems dry, it is not. Of course too much moisture quickly leads to mould and mildew problems, so soaking it down is not reasonable. Ideally, exposure to humid atmosphere will help balance the effect of over drying on hot days.
Leather is very dynamic with respect to moisture content, meaning moisture comes and goes easily under normal circumstances....] American Leather Chemists Association (ALCA)


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## Spirit Detailing (Mar 29, 2007)

Cripes, my head hurts after that....!! :lol:

Jon, thanks for fighting the good fight. You sitting in the Florida sun with your laptop and a Mojito again?

Leather care is one of three areas of car care that the general "detailing" public can't unlearn what they seem to have learned.

I mean, how many people ever use conditioners on a leather jacket? Or on leather shoes/ trainers. Even on their sofas? But because conditioners are sold within the car-care industry then it is a pre-supposition that they *must* be used, which is *wrong* of course.

We've been saying it for years, you and I, but the industry is still a rich one for manufacturers. Imagine getting rich on leather scent and a jar of lanolin! That's basically what happens in many cases.... unless you add mango and banana, then you get rich twice as fast!! 

Drop me a mail if you want to discuss the other 2 detailing problem areas... :thumb:


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## judyb (Sep 7, 2007)

Hi Brian

The problem is much more widespread than the detailing world. Most people seem to think that their leather needs a nice rich cream to 'condition' it whatever it is on - as we supply to all aspects of the industry we see this all the time. 
Feeding leather is common parlance and as you say is very hard for the public to 'unlearn' we have been trying to educate them for years as you know.

Cheers
Judy


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## nick_mcuk (Jan 4, 2008)

judyb said:


> Hi Brian
> 
> The problem is much more widespread than the detailing world. Most people seem to think that their leather needs a nice rich cream to 'condition' it whatever it is on - as we supply to all aspects of the industry we see this all the time.
> Feeding leather is common parlance and as you say is very hard for the public to 'unlearn' we have been trying to educate them for years as you know.
> ...


As the old saying goes...."Ignorance is bliss"

I do think this magical "D" word has a lot to do with it.....companies see it as a good excuse to bump the price up and sell us all manner of completely un-required products.

There is a clip on YouTube of some guy in the USA detailing a Honda S2000 and part of his detailing process is to condition the leather seats....which leads to him brushing on some oil mixture then leaving the seats wit black bin bags over them over night to allow it to penetrate.


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## judyb (Sep 7, 2007)

Yes but we also see the damage that this 'ignorance' causes and it is often very expensive to fix. 
'Prevention is better than cure'

Cheers
Judy


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## nick_mcuk (Jan 4, 2008)

here it is....




Go to 3:35 !!!!


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## judyb (Sep 7, 2007)

Which of course we all know is nonsense.


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## bero1306 (Jan 24, 2011)

Is this not a little over board. Lets remember that they are only seats in a car and people who do not know or do detailing do not have a problem.


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## nick_mcuk (Jan 4, 2008)

I have to say in the 26k miles i have done in my A6 I have used once a month either AG Leather cleaner then the Leather Balm or of late I have used the Zaino leather cleaner and conditioner....no damage...seats are as tight and mint as the day I got the car..


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## Spirit Detailing (Mar 29, 2007)

bero1306 said:


> Is this not a little over board. Lets remember that they are only seats in a car and people who do not know or do detailing do not have a problem.


The whole purpose of the forum is to learn about detailing techniques and products and how best to serve the various surfaces in a car interior.

I regularly work on high end cars and am very glad I took the time to learn how to preserve interiors.

@Nick, did that guy really call his company "Aggressive Detailing"? Wouldn't be my first choice of names but it probably means something to the owner... 

Looks like he used Leatherique on the seats. I only use something like that when I am genuinely concerned for the leather and it is just one of a number of products that I might use where the seats are actually suffering damage or have been compromised in some way. Its not a regular maintenance product in my opinion.

But like Bero says, if you don't have a problem then don't bother reading the advice in leather threads. My opinion would be that a Detailer needs a global perspective and this sort of information helps the industry to prosper.


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## Dr Leather (Sep 8, 2010)

judyb said:


> We realise that leather can be re fat liquored at tannery level but this is talking about re fatliquoring once the leather has been used on car interiors - this is a discussion that has gone on for a long time on another forum as there is a product supplier who sells fat liquors to re fat liquor leather as part of the cleaning process.


In that case I agree with you Judy.....


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## Dr Leather (Sep 8, 2010)

TOGWT said:


> Are these also incorrect?
> 
> [Fatliquoring - This is the wet-end softening process, known as fatliquoring. Oils are added in the tanning or retanning prices to make the hide soft and flexible. In the very old days leather was simply "stuffed" with oils and fats and were left to just sit in the fiber structure.
> 
> ...


No I stand by what I say in truth. I am surprised though by ALCA on saying fatliquor is non-migratory - that is very dependent upon the fatliquor used and the method of application. Fatty spew is a ********** case which can be attributed through loose natural fat or loose fatliquor. Fogging is a major test completed on new fatliquors to ensure that their volatile content is low enough, and that is why specific fatliquors are designed for specific leather types. For instance we would not use a sports footwear fatliquor for an automotive leather due to the possibility of fogging. I'll write to them (ALCA) to see what they mean by that. I am actually a member of ALCA.

Rgds

Dr Leather


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## judyb (Sep 7, 2007)

Spewing is a specific problem that occurs on the occassions when fat liquors do migrate. This appears like a fine white powder on the surface that feels slightly waxy to the touch and can be wiped off the surface but will return (it looks a little like salts on brickwork). This needs a specific product to restabilise the fat liquors (spew remover or fat and salt stabiliser).

Having followed this thread on lots of different forums including the ALCA website the answer given was in answer to the question of re fat liquoring leather during the cleaning and care process and was not meant to imply that it does not migrate under any circumstances.

Hope this helps
Cheers 
Judyb


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## ITHAQVA (Feb 20, 2011)

nick_mcuk said:


> here it is....2002 S2000 16 Hour Detail - YouTube
> 
> Go to 3:35 !!!!


:lol: Looks like he's looobbing up the seats for some hot M&S sex action WTF :doublesho :doublesho


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## TOGWT (Oct 26, 2005)

[Spewing is a specific problem that occurs on the occassions when fat liquors do migrate.]

Spew (Spue) is a solidified fat or fatty acid, when the fat liquor introduced during the re-tanning process is destabilised and rises to the surface of the leather creating a white haze or film on the surface. The conditions under which the spew forms (temperature, humidity, changes in temperature, etc.) can be a clue to which type is active on your leather. This will look dry but have a greasy/fatty feel to it. If it is cleaned off it will almost certainly return as it requires a stabilising product to re balance the fats.

Spew would be a very rare occurrence in finished leather, or urethane protected automotive leather upholstery, it could occur in unfinished leather. However dried perspiration stains (which it is sometimes confused with) can also leave crystallized salts on the leather surface


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## judyb (Sep 7, 2007)

Spew used to only be seen on unfinshed (aniline style) leathers but is now much more common on finished leather and we see a lot of it in the furniture industry. This is due to the long distances that furniture is shipped with extreme changes in temperature and humidity.

Hope this helps
Judyb


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## TOGWT (Oct 26, 2005)

^^^ Thanks for the info...


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## ITHAQVA (Feb 20, 2011)

I dont know about you Jude, but im still thinking about those loobed seats oh leather agony aunt 

Also your leather care pack you sent me rocks, my seats look great :thumb:


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## Dr Leather (Sep 8, 2010)

TOGWT - so just to check - was the ALCA statement you copied and pasted lifted from an ALCA forum discussion or from a genuine peer reviewed document??? I just spoke to some guys in ALCA and they are wishing to see the full context of the article.

Rgds,

Darryl


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## Grizzle (Jul 12, 2006)

Darryl if you have nothing but bitterness and looking for arguments all the time this is going to get very boring and drive a lot of people away from here.

All that effort you are using to prove someone wrong try putting it into your own business and making it the best you and your business can be.


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## JimG (Sep 16, 2011)

I've heard Gliptones is good? Any thoughts?


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## ITHAQVA (Feb 20, 2011)

JimG said:


> I've heard Gliptones is good? Any thoughts?


Having used both Gliptone & LTT's kit, I would say it's good, but after one week, the seats start to acquire that shine  With the LTT kit it hasn't happened yet. I'm converted to using a more modern approach to leather care I.e. LTT's Approach.

I think the real difference is the finishing product, some think "condition" with oils etc... Some think "protect" with a water based product.

Plastic even though man made, comes up better with water based polymer products, rather than silicon/oil based products. (Werkstat satin prot & Wolfs Chemicals Silk Milk are good examples of polymer/water products & they are bloody ace).

*Give Jude a call at LTT, she's really helpful.*

Darryl, I don't understand you at all, you're a business & I don't see your posts helping that said business.
If your products are that good, send me your leather care kit & I'll do an unbiased write up, this will have a twofold effect, I will test & post my findings, which in turn will help members see how your products work in the real world & be more than likely to purchase, it also may redeem your conduct here on DW.


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## Lloydy (Jan 13, 2009)

So in a nutshell after reading all of that and it making no sense at all, what would be the best way for the average Joe Bloggs to look after the lether seats in the car?

I have a Focus Rs Mk1 with the blue leather and would like to give it a good protection as it is 8 years old now. What sort of products are there?


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## ITHAQVA (Feb 20, 2011)

This is only my opinion, I feel that a modern approach is the way, water based products that protect :thumb:

This is what I used & results are very good & its easy to use http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=231310 :thumb:


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## judyb (Sep 7, 2007)

Put simply!!

Leather does not require 'conditioning' with anything other than water.

Keep your leather clean by protecting it with a leather protector and then regular cleaning. 
Adding 'conditioners' which generally contain oils and waxes will change the appearance of your leather over time as dirt will build up on the surface and cause a sheen.

Using the correct care methods and products will not alter the factory finish.

The type of leather you have is 'coated' leather. This is essentially a 'painted' leather 
with a clear coat finish over the top. The leather may or may not be dyed through with 
aniline dyes prior to the finish coating.

Essentially it is this top coating that needs looking after. 
Cleaning is vitally important as the top coat will wear away if allowed to become dirty. 
Dirt on the surface will also become ground into the finish by constant abrassion.

'Conditioners', balms, feeds etc (traditionally oil and wax based) cannot penetrate this 
finish so are not worth applying - they can also leave behind residues on the finish which will only attract more dirt if allowed to remain. 'Conditioners' will not do any 
protecting on leather even if they say they do as there will not be enough active 
ingredient in them to do anything.

A protector will make the finish easier to clean and also inhibit dye transfer etc 
on pale coloured leathers.

Leather however finished has to remain breathable and it will allow the movement of 
moisture back and forth (transpiration) so the use of water based cleaners and 
protectors will keep the leather correctly hydrated which is essentail to keeping it in 
good condition.

Leather needs a little regular care and attention and this can be done with a maintenance product rather than a deep clean which you would then only need to do once or twice a year depending on usage and colour.

The routine for correct care should be

Protect from new Auto Ultra Protect
Maintain with a regular clean or maintenance product Auto Ultra Maintain
Deep clean with a foam cleaner once or twice a year Auto Ultra Foam

Simple steps of cleaning & protecting will prolong the life of the finish on the leather

Download your free Car Care Leaflet

Hope this helps 
Judyb


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## TOGWT (Oct 26, 2005)

[To make this debate credible, the original contributor or author or its official spokesman from the American Leather Chemists Association (ALCA) should be invited by the person that quoted the above statement to participate as well?

Do you think so? Roger Koh]

I asked the ALCA representative that you suggested and received an answer. I posted it on the thread that you you started and subsequently abandoned.http://www.autopia.org/forum/car-detailing/137113-leather-fatliquoring-%96-point-contention.html

I think it's now up to you to redeem credibility; they are your products not mine, especially as you seem to be the only one that has any faith in this methodology


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## ITHAQVA (Feb 20, 2011)

judyb said:


> Put simply!!
> 
> Leather does not require 'conditioning' with anything other than water.
> 
> ...


Mistress Judy has spoken & her products speak for themselves. :thumb:

To put it simply "THEY WORK" what else do you want, a semi naked female applying the products for you?  Hmm, that's an idea, Hey Jude you spare for some leather action :doublesho


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## TOGWT (Oct 26, 2005)

Discretion is the better part of valour; I'm abdicating from this discussion as I think Roger Koh has already done enough damage to his brand. Peace


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## CEE DOG (Nov 13, 2010)

Jon, thanks for an excellent article. Thanks for your time and effort in research and writing on this subject.

I completely understand the conditioners not being needed and have been inboard with that for a long time but are you sure moisture can still be absorbed and released by the leather through the urethane coating? More importantly for me are you sure that any type of solvent based product really causes damage? I would think that the solvent wouldn't penetrate it fully or damage the coating but what do I know.

The reason I ask is I use an interior sealant product that I really love. But from what you said I don't want to be sealing it..? I would think a urethane top layer would be fine to seal just like paint is fine to seal.

Thanks again for your time and future thoughts and info.


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## Dr Leather (Sep 8, 2010)

The coatings on auto leathers are usually not very breathable, if at all. 

Rgds,

Darryl


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## ITHAQVA (Feb 20, 2011)

Hi all, just spoke to Darryl on the phone & he seems a very nice guy, incredibly helpful in all things Leather. I may of been a little quick to judge you mate as you do seem very genuine in your offer of help & advice.

Darryl has kindly taken my offer to do an unbiased thread about his Leather product in the next few weeks. :thumb:

Once again, cheers to you Darryl for calling. :thumb: :thumb:

I still think my special sexy batman suite should be made of synthetic materials though   :lol:


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## Dr Leather (Sep 8, 2010)

Hi Doug, 

It was good to speak with you as well. Sample will be in the post very soon and we look forward to hearing how you get on with it.

Many thanks,

Darryl


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## fatdazza (Dec 29, 2010)

TOGWT said:


> [To make this debate credible, the original contributor or author or its official spokesman from the American Leather Chemists Association (ALCA) should be invited by the person that quoted the above statement to participate as well?
> 
> Do you think so? Roger Koh]
> 
> ...




A most cryptic post - please explain. You appear to have a beef but with whom?


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## Spirit Detailing (Mar 29, 2007)

TOGWT said:


> Discretion is the better part of valour; I'm abdicating from this discussion as I think Roger Koh has already done enough damage to his brand. Peace


I missed that bit over on Autopia. You need to make allowances for Roger as English is his second language.

His system is interesting but very contrived. There are one or two of his products that are actually excellent for specific leather problems, but would cost me a fortune to ship over from Canada so I have to forego them.

Jon, I abdicated from this discussion years ago but somehow I got sucked back in! Its the whole conditioners charade and the people making money off the backs of car owners who don't know better. It drives me mad but then, that's marketing and "rhetoric" for you. I think the only thing that gets really conditioned is the placebo effect. 

I look forward to the next topic that you sink your teeth into. Maybe Carnauba or have you covered that already?


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## Dr Leather (Sep 8, 2010)

It's not me before a load more of DW members go for my jugular!!!!

It is with the guy that gave TOGWT the bum steer on information, Roger Koh, for whatever reason, and the ALCA guys noted that it was wrong information to him, hence the withdrawal of TOGWT from this thread.... I think?????!!!!! Or do I have it way wrong?????

Here's the link to see for yourselves.

http://www.leatherchemists.org/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=1400&PN=1

Let this be an end to this. I've been chastised by quite a few people today via e-mail despite actually being correct!!!!

And despite certain people thinking I am bitter, I wrote to TOGWT to say I am happy to help peer review his thoughts in the future.

Rgds

Darryl


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## TOGWT (Oct 26, 2005)

[... I wrote to TOGWT to say I am happy to help peer review his thoughts in the future.]

I didn't see this in your PM, and there is no need for a vendor 'to review my thoughts', it almost sounds like 'censorship'. I hope they are just badly chosen words?


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## Dr Leather (Sep 8, 2010)

TOGWT said:


> [... I wrote to TOGWT to say I am happy to help peer review his thoughts in the future.]
> 
> I didn't see this in your PM, and there is no need for a vendor 'to review my thoughts', it almost sounds like 'censorship'. I hope they are just badly chosen words?


What??? I wrote I am happy to assist, etc??? What is the matter with you??? I certainly did not use the word censorship nor would I ever intend that!!!! Crikey I'm only trying to give you the benefit of my professional knowledge. Offer to help is still there though despite your post.

Sometimes I just don't get this forum.......

Rgds,

Darryl


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## ITHAQVA (Feb 20, 2011)

Dr Leather said:


> Crikey I'm only trying to give you the benefit of my professional knowledge. Offer to help is still there though despite your post.
> 
> Sometimes I just don't get this forum.......
> 
> ...


Having had a lengthy discussion with Darryl in all things Leather I can only but reiterate that the guy is here to help with any queries, yes he is trying to sell his products, but that doesn't take his right away from expressing his opinions along with all the other sellers & members on this forum.

Please can we all get along, we are after all here for the same thing, to keep our cars in good condition, let's focus on what we have in common & not our minor differences.


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## Damien89 (May 13, 2007)

nick_mcuk said:


> here it is....2002 S2000 16 Hour Detail - YouTube
> 
> Go to 3:35 !!!!


Whats the music called?


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## paddy328 (Mar 4, 2007)

Im glad someone mentioned the leatherique products. While they do things differently and would take a long time to apply, are they any good? Ive seen them clean seats very very well, but going by what has been said on here, would it just be as effective to use a normal leather cleaner?


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## Spirit Detailing (Mar 29, 2007)

paddy328 said:


> Im glad someone mentioned the leatherique products. While they do things differently and would take a long time to apply, are they any good? Ive seen them clean seats very very well, but going by what has been said on here, would it just be as effective to use a normal leather cleaner?


Like the avatar, Paddy.:thumb:

The rejuvenator oil is not for maintenance and should not be confused with such. I think it is best suited to old leather, even uncoated leather. Their cleaning solution, (is it prestine clean or something...) is okay. A bit on the mild side for professional use. There are better ones out there.:thumb: and not very far from here.... ^^


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## paddy328 (Mar 4, 2007)

Cheers mate.

To be honest, i saw the leatherique stuff used by some american guys and liked the idea of it soaking in and pushing all the dirt and oils to the surface it. I thought that was cool. Never used it though.


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## TOGWT (Oct 26, 2005)

Spirit Detailing said:


> I look forward to the next topic that you sink your teeth into. Maybe Carnauba or have you covered that already?


Carnauba Wax: Part I - http://www.autopia.org/forum/autopia-detailing-wiki/138969-carnauba-wax-part-i.html#post1476919

Carnauba (Brasillia) Wax: Part II - http://www.autopia.org/forum/autopi...arnauba-brasilia-wax-part-ii.html#post1477006


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## Spirit Detailing (Mar 29, 2007)

TOGWT said:


> Carnauba Wax: Part I - http://www.autopia.org/forum/autopia-detailing-wiki/138969-carnauba-wax-part-i.html#post1476919
> 
> Carnauba (Brasillia) Wax: Part II - http://www.autopia.org/forum/autopi...arnauba-brasilia-wax-part-ii.html#post1477006


Good Article, Jon.

You had a Freudian typo where you begin to talk about SV Cleaning Fluid! Can you spot it? 

I might have a few questions later, Jon. I might transfer the article links over to the right section.

Cheers
Brian


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