# Starting a company



## tom-225 (Aug 30, 2009)

Why do people deside that because they have washed a couple of cars think they can do it for a living?? 

All it does it make life harder for the real pros who spend alot of time and money developing good businesses offering the best service.

It takes years to develop the skills needed, not a couple of cars over 6 months.

Oh and cheap prices isnt a good USP it also just makes things harder for the pros who end up having to compete with the low cowboy prices.


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## AaronGTi (Nov 2, 2010)

Your well referring to that shield detailer or whatever it was hahahahashahhs


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## svended (Oct 7, 2011)

I've been cleaning, valeting and detailing cars for nearly 16 years off and on. Lots of friends and colleagues at work say I should do it as a job and get paid for something I enjoy doing. But one of several issues is a lot people think it's a case of wetting a car, wiping dirt off and then putting a little wax on to make it shiny, while others who wash there own car think that they have all the knowledge they need to wash others. My friends appreciate that I take the time to make the car looks it's best before I give the keys back and leave me to get on with it. Around where I live there must be a dozen mobile 'valeters' doing splash and dashes for £25-50 that leave a car looking okay for a week tops for anyone decent to start up asking a respectable wage.

Truth is a lot of people don't care as much as others for a car they see as 'a tool for getting from A to B', and will only pay a small amount for what they see is an easy job that they don't have the time or energy to do. Meaning some pros end up going to the wall and others don't even get off first base.


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## Jagnet (Dec 25, 2011)

It's not unique to valeting and detailing. It wasn't so long ago that the pub trade was attracting more than its fair share of retirees looking to invest their retirement funds attracted by what, on the surface, looked to be a nice lifestyle. "I've drunk in pubs for years, I can do that." The emerging big pub cos were more than happy to oblige by selling them a lease.

Low barriers to entry and the opportunity to work for yourself making money from a hobby you enjoy. It's not unsurprising that it ticks a lot of boxes for people.


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## dcj (Apr 17, 2009)

tom-225 said:


> Why do people deside that because they have washed a couple of cars think they can do it for a living??
> 
> All it does it make life harder for the real pros who spend alot of time and money developing good businesses offering the best service.
> 
> ...





svended said:


> I've been cleaning, valeting and detailing cars for nearly 16 years off and on. Lots of friends and colleagues at work say I should do it as a job and get paid for something I enjoy doing. But one of several issues is a lot people think it's a case of wetting a car, wiping dirt off and then putting a little wax on to make it shiny, while others who wash there own car think that they have all the knowledge they need to wash others. My friends appreciate that I take the time to make the car looks it's best before I give the keys back and leave me to get on with it. Around where I live there must be a dozen mobile 'valeters' doing splash and dashes for £25-50 that leave a car looking okay for a week tops for anyone decent to start up asking a respectable wage.
> 
> Truth is a lot of people don't care as much as others for a car they see as 'a tool for getting from A to B', and will only pay a small amount for what they see is an easy job that they don't have the time or energy to do. Meaning some pros end up going to the wall and others don't even get off first base.


No disrespect to the pair off you who I,m sure do an excellent job but unless you are charging the same rate as the pros (and not cheaper) then its you and the 100s of other amateur detailers on here who are putting them out of business or making them struggle and not the valeters.
The bulk of my work is the so called "splash and dash" (Detailing snobbery words,not mine)at home or business places because thats what company and personal budgets allow for. Its nothing to do with "people dont care about their car",and more to do with what they can afford.If they didnt care at all they wouldnt have the car cleaned at all.

BTW,one of the last people to enquire about a valeting business was currently unemployed,so should he stay that way or try to make a go of something he enjoys?


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## empsburna (Apr 5, 2006)




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## Ric (Feb 4, 2007)

People can choose to do what they want... 

It's up to the consumer to check the market and decide on a supplier.

If a Pro has a good reputation and decent prices then they have nothing to worry about.


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## DMH-01 (Mar 29, 2011)

dcj said:


> then its you and the 100s of other amateur detailers on here who are putting them out of business


If that was the case the pros wouldn't sponsor the site. People on here still go to them for details and for training days.


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## Opulent (Jan 25, 2012)

Everyone has to start some were. Even the pro's was the new guy at some point surely?


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## dcj (Apr 17, 2009)

DMH-01 said:


> If that was the case the pros wouldn't sponsor the site. People on here still go to them for details and for training days.


As I,ve said the amateurs can be very good,sometimes better than the pros but if theyre doing it cheaper then its still competition.
And as carbonangel said,if the pros have a good reputation and decent prices they have nothing to worry about.


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## Derekh929 (Aug 28, 2011)

carbonangel said:


> People can choose to do what they want...
> 
> It's up to the consumer to check the market and decide on a supplier.
> 
> If a Pro has a good reputation and decent prices then they have nothing to worry about.


very good point you make we are all free to start a business and some make it some don't my business is 20 years old know not detailing i may add, but you need to provide a high quality service at any end of the market wether it be splash n dash or Pro Detail, i'm sure if i was in the trade you first would need the tools of the trade and some respected industry training and Insurance.
The problem is we are all different and some don't care it is just a means to and end in hard time's and i agree it may effect business as mine has been in past by other's breaking rules and telling stuff that was not true, but competition is life and if your clients value your service they will return if not they will try someone else, but we can only judge a person's work by seeing it in the first place.


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## Arthur Dent (Aug 2, 2011)

Competition is great regardless of pricing as it should keep folk on there toes, as the real key to Success is SERVICE and QUALITY if either one of those is lacking then any Business will ultimately fail.

It matters little what is being charged because if the costings are to low then a business will not be Sustainable in the long term especially if the appropriate time is being taken to do a thorough Quality job.
But if the costings are pitched right then repeat custom and recommendations will help a business progress.

In short competition should be welcomed not feared as it helps the best to keep there finger on the button and focused on maintaining the edge.


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## Jagnet (Dec 25, 2011)

Derekh929 said:


> but competition is life and if your clients value your service they will return if not they will try someone else, but we can only judge a person's work by seeing it in the first place.


 Agreed. To take another example from other industries, plumbing was an excellent case of supply not meeting demand and pushing up prices. An influx of East European tradesmen and thanks to tabloid headlines of plumbers earning £100k making it fashionable an influx of ex office based employees saw competition increase.

Those basing their hiring decision on price got the job done cheaper, but not necessarily that well. On the other hand there were plenty of newcomers doing excellent work.

Now, with the likes of big business from British Gas to The AA offering easy monthly insurance for everything from boiler breakdowns to leaking pipes it's another element of competition for independent plumbers.

Competition is nothing new, and I don't know that you can begrudge people starting up in an industry. You just have to keep ahead of the game and adapt your business to cope.


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## justina3 (Jan 11, 2008)

good luck to them i say at least there having a go at something and not sitting back expecting the country to feed them. 

if there good they will last if not they wont..simplessss


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## dooka (Aug 1, 2006)

There are so many people starting up as detailers. I get emails, what pad for this, what polish for that, then a week later, they have a website charging good money..

I have been doing what I do for 20 years now, and I am still learning..

I hear a lot of the new starters who have no experience, have a lot of customers come back due to poor work, some of them are treated like gods on this forum..

I see so many cars with next to no paint on them, then I find out that they have been machined by a so called pro, you know the ones, read a few threads, watched a few videos and maybe, just maybe taken a course.

I also see a few people who offer training are still getting training themselves, WTF!!..

I reckon there are only 10-20 detailers who are actually decent at what they do. I can't abide those that get someone else to carry out the details, then take all the glory in the studio/showroom with no mention of the guy who actually did the work..

This may well get deleted, but open your eyes guys. 
Go and spend some time in a body shop, then turn pro, learn your trade people..


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## justina3 (Jan 11, 2008)

dooka said:


> There are so many people starting up as detailers. I get emails, what pad for this, what polish for that, then a week later, they have a website charging good money..
> 
> I have been doing what I do for 20 years now, and I am still learning..
> 
> ...


dont see why that should get deleted makes perfect sense


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## Arthur Dent (Aug 2, 2011)

dooka said:


> There are so many people starting up as detailers. I get emails, what pad for this, what polish for that, then a week later, they have a website charging good money..
> 
> I have been doing what I do for 20 years now, and I am still learning..
> 
> ...


On the whole I agree, with the exception of the bit I have highlighted I have spent 40+ years in my chosen field during which time I have trained many people, however I have regulary undertaken training myself in order to keep abreast of new innovations and practices in order that I can continue to offer the best service possible to both clients and trainees.


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## tom-225 (Aug 30, 2009)

well most people seam to have missed the point here. my problem is with inexperianced preople starting a business. if some one has put the time and effort into learning the skills thats fine. its the cowboys who have 6 months experiance doing mates cars that annoy me.


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## dooka (Aug 1, 2006)

Arthur Dent said:


> On the whole I agree, with the exception of the bit I have highlighted I have spent 40+ years in my chosen field during which time I have trained many people, however I have regulary undertaken training myself in order to keep abreast of new innovations and practices in order that I can continue to offer the best service possible to both clients and trainees.


I',m not talking about peeps with vast experience such as yourself . There is nothing wrong with refresher courses or learning new techniques, products etc, everyday is a school day. You have the experience to back what you are doing, and just staying ahead of the game.

It is the guys who were sitting behind a desk 6 months ago, and now offering training in something they know little about. We can all read books, threads, watch videos and get a days training, but still leaves them with no real world experience. I have wet flatted hundreds of cars over the years. Wet flatting seems to be the in thing at the mo. Seen it my self, cars coming in with an average of 74um after being flatted or once flatted, people taking crazy amounts of paint of to remove sanding marks, strike through heaven. Experience is everything, it allows you to know what is really going on, and gives you the ability to adapt.



DMH-01 said:


> If that was the case the pros wouldn't sponsor the site. People on here still go to them for details and for training days.


You will find a good few of the pros haven't signed back up, this is due to what is being talked about in this thread. Another peeve of mine on DW is, the constant same questions, what wax for this what wax for that etc. Yes, we all need to start somewhere, but use the bloody search function, or go and buy that product and find out for yourself. For example, a majority of people on DW will recommend Prima Amigo as a glaze. I tried and didn't like, so sold on, but found out if it was any good for me or not. It may well work for the next user though. ..


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## dooka (Aug 1, 2006)

tom-225 said:


> well most people seam to have missed the point here. my problem is with inexperianced preople starting a business. if some one has put the time and effort into learning the skills thats fine. its the cowboys who have 6 months experiance doing mates cars that annoy me.


There are cowboys in every walk of life. Not just detailing. Yes they are a pain, but as long as you keep your head down, constantly churn out decent work and provide a good service, then you will be fine. Detailing in the UK is a relatively young industry, no restraints in place, so people go mad for it. Give it a few years, and those who are good will remain trading, a few may go under due to local competition, they just need to find a way of beating the competition..


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## Jagnet (Dec 25, 2011)

What sort of company are we discussing? General valeting, or pro detailing with paintwork correction? Most threads asking for advice on business start up seem to be focussed on the valeting side more to my mind.

I'm not sure that a time served apprenticeship is really required for maintenance washes.


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## Jedi_Detailer (May 7, 2011)

I haven't got time to reply my full thoughts on this thread at the moment but I just want to throw something in here, what makes anyone a pro?


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## Shiny (Apr 23, 2007)

By definition, anyone that takes money for a job is a professional.

An "experienced" professional is something different, as is a qualified professional. There is no real measure of experience though, that is down to interpretation.

I've been doing insurance as a professional for 27 years, I like to think i'm experienced, i also have qualifications, but that still doesn't mean i know everything about insurance and have to study for "continued professional development".


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## TheMattFinish (Jul 17, 2011)

tom-225 said:


> Why do people deside that because they have washed a couple of cars think they can do it for a living??
> 
> All it does it make life harder for the real pros who spend alot of time and money developing good businesses offering the best service.
> 
> ...


I may be well off the case here, but i had to register as a company last year. Mainly because i was earning so much money of family relatives and friends etc for cleaning cars so regularly that people where taking note and asking was i a company etc, website cards! and i am deffo no pro!!

My mum works for the tax monsters  and she gave me an example from her work of people grassing people up for earning money and not being taxed, these people where then landed with heavy fines etc.

In my opinion i would have thought if the people that all of a sudden start full time would make it easier for the pros. There poor work and lack of customer service makes it easier for the pros to charge what they do!

Tho my ethos when working on any car is that it will take as long as it takes to get the best finish. I dont understand how people can charge by time... just my opinion tho


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## Reflectology (Jul 29, 2009)

I will just throw a little into the mix here if i may....now as you may well know I am pretty "shoot from the hip"...."say it how i see it" etc....now i could carry on in that vain in this thread but I can put it a little simpler....

Almost 30 yrs ago i was a YTS trainee...yes that many years ago....there were 20 of us on the scheme and out of the 20 only 3 wanted to do paint and body....one being myself....now because this scheme only allowed for one college to be attended it was pointed out that we ALL had to attend the same course....which was mechanics....so for a few yrs I went to a college that I was forced to attend to study mechanics once a week...however whilst in actual placement I was doing what i wanted to do....which was paint and body....

So after the years of college and pointless study i came away from the course with a fair few certificates in mechanics which gives me qualifications that I could walk straight into a job with (or could have)....but did i get any for the paint and body side of it....no....

And now after almost 30 years down the line I have NO formal qualifications in paint and body yet experience to put many to shame....

I do however have qualifications coming out of my ears for vehicle mechanics....but do i know anything about it....would i start to train people on it and would i try to pass myself off as a time served mechanic with the quals to match....simple answer is....NO

I guess what is being or trying to be pointed out in this thread is that too many are trying to be something they are not....now i am not saying dont try but experience comes with time and only time...not from studying books which leads to a signed certificate....


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## tom-225 (Aug 30, 2009)

Reflectology said:


> I guess what is being or trying to be pointed out in this thread is that too many are trying to be something they are not....now i am not saying dont try but experience comes with time and only time...not from studying books which leads to a signed certificate....


HIT NAIL ON HEAD..... this is what im tryinf to say Russ yup


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## PootleFlump (Jan 1, 2006)

Why shouldn't someone try and start a business if that what they want to do, that sort of attitude should be encouraged in this country. Just because someone doesn't have an established business and call themselves a pro doesn't mean they could start and develop afterall I can't imagine the "Pros" where born with a sponge in their hands and all the experience in the world.


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## Arthur Dent (Aug 2, 2011)

Reflectology said:


> I will just throw a little into the mix here if i may....now as you may well know I am pretty "shoot from the hip"...."say it how i see it" etc....now i could carry on in that vain in this thread but I can put it a little simpler....
> 
> Almost 30 yrs ago i was a YTS trainee...yes that many years ago....there were 20 of us on the scheme and out of the 20 only 3 wanted to do paint and body....one being myself....now because this scheme only allowed for one college to be attended it was pointed out that we ALL had to attend the same course....which was mechanics....so for a few yrs I went to a college that I was forced to attend to study mechanics once a week...however whilst in actual placement I was doing what i wanted to do....which was paint and body....
> 
> ...


*That`s Nailed it spot on experience* and as I said earlier service and quality are the keys to success.

However for folk just starting out in any field it is important to know your limitations and not risk going beyond them until experience and Knowledge is gained , that way you gain a good reputation for what you know and do best.

It is also worth noting that what you find satisfying as a hobby may well lose its charm when it comes to doing it 8-12 hours a day, 6-7 days a week and then finding the rest of the time taken up with book keeping, chasing debts, etc. etc.

Personally I don`t give a toss about definitions such as Cowboys, Pro`s or anything else for that matter because at the end of the day if you are good then you survive and if you are bad then you go down and on the way you are enhancing the reputation of those that are good.

But yes everbody needs to start somewhere and if you have the strength of you own conviction then go for it and good luck


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## Ninja59 (Feb 17, 2009)

This thread does kind of lead me to my overall problem with DW the focus is all wrong...

DW was as far i understand never a site for pros originally it was a bunch of amateurs and hobbyists with a few taking the bigger step but you need some experienced hands no doubt about it. These days though to me it feels more like flipping Retailing World, endless stream of new products that barely any of us can keep pace with the bloody endless must haves the one that sticks in my mind is BTBM it is a good shampoo but for some erroneous reason it gets the almost mythical time lord status on here when there are some dam good other options from the same or different manufacturer at less with pretty much no coverage.

As for the whole pro thing i have noticed a tail off in the older pros of DW to its shame and demise. The endless bloody threads about starting X business well some might know my response last night to one...about the shield thread.

I agree with what Russ and Dooka have said wholeheartedly the eventual statements are very much a like really in a way.


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## tom-225 (Aug 30, 2009)

PootleFlump said:


> Why shouldn't someone try and start a business if that what they want to do, that sort of attitude should be encouraged in this country. Just because someone doesn't have an established business and call themselves a pro doesn't mean they could start and develop afterall I can't imagine the "Pros" where born with a sponge in their hands and all the experience in the world.


I have no problem with some one starting a business. Look at MarkSmith he had a good amount of experiance before offering his services for money. Its the people with NO experiance that get under my bonnet. They arnt prepared to spend 12 months doing friends and famiky cars for little money to get proper experiance on a wide range of cars


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## JakeWhite (Oct 14, 2011)

I completely understand people saying about gaining experience etc, but surely the way to gain experience is by actually doing it? But on the other side of the coin, the same people are also saying they are fed up with seeing all these new people starting a business. So if you're fed up with people starting up, but at the same time slating them for not having enough experience to become and established pro, how are they supposed to progress? My point is, none of the pro's on here were born in a workshop, with a flex rotary in one hand, a bottle of menzerna in the other and a fully experienced, established reputation. They all had to start somewhere, start their learning somewhere and start building their company somewhere. I'm sure when some of the pro's on here started up from scratch, there were other people in the same business thinking exactly what the pro's now are saying "not another one" etc etc. But did that stop you? No, clearly not else you wouldn't be here now. It's similar to when people get frustrated with learner drivers but quickly forget that they themselves were once a learner and probably had someone in the car behind them thinking the same thing. If someone has the drive and passion in a particular field and would rather make a go of it as opposed to sat on their backside all day (claiming benefits which ironically comes out of the "pro's" taxes by the way) who has the right to tell them no?


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## Derekh929 (Aug 28, 2011)

I guess what is being or trying to be pointed out in this thread is that too many are trying to be something they are not....now i am not saying dont try but experience comes with time and only time...not from studying books which leads to a signed certificate....


Well have to say exactly my point I'm in Financial services and currently they want you to have certificates coming out your ears experience, honesty and pride is the three you need to get on and coman sense as well


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## craigeh123 (Dec 26, 2011)

Certificates mean nothing I'm gnvq level 3 city and guilds level 2 and was also ford technician status all backed up by working the job as I learnt . I had a mate who studied mechanics full time at college so on paper we would look simmilar - of course we weren't ! 
I think really it boils down to claiming your something your not , I see no harm in offering a valet service and going the extra mile , saying your a detailer though just because you own a rotary and a clay bar is taking the ****


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## JakeWhite (Oct 14, 2011)

craigeh123 said:


> Certificates mean nothing I'm gnvq level 3 city and guilds level 2 and was also ford technician status all backed up by working the job as I learnt . I had a mate who studied mechanics full time at college so on paper we would look simmilar - of course we weren't !
> I think really it boils down to claiming your something your not , I see no harm in offering a valet service and going the extra mile , saying your a detailer though just because you own a rotary and a clay bar is taking the ****


So if someone genuinely practices (properly) in detailing and gets to a very good level, when would you say they are allowed to advertise as a detailer? Or would you suggest they sit in silence and don't offer it for fear of others judging them as 'taking the ****'?


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## craigeh123 (Dec 26, 2011)

I'd say when they are competent and comfortable in their own abilities to complete 
The job at hand . What I mean is people that buy stuff and then think that automatically 
Makes them better . When I was at ford a guy from Renault came along with a huge toolbox loads of tools earning far more than me and I ended up having to help him all the bloody time . 

I think everyone that wants to should go for It but go the right way about it , I'd happilly clean a car but I wouldn't charge strong money for it because I'm not in a position to !


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## Arthur Dent (Aug 2, 2011)

JakeWhite said:


> So if someone genuinely practices (properly) in detailing and gets to a very good level, when would you say they are allowed to advertise as a detailer? Or would you suggest they sit in silence and don't offer it for fear of others judging them as 'taking the ****'?


Personally I believe in keeping things simple and try not to sex things up with fancy words if for example I was a printer and a client wanted an outstanding job doing on an art reproduction and I knew that I could do it but it would cost, I would just turn round and say to them that yes it is within my capabilities but the cost would be high and then if I was asked to produce the job I would do so with the greatest attention to every aspect of the job and then if the customer was happy, then I would also be happy that they considered me to be a bloody good printer but I would certainly never claim to be a Professional Printer of art reproductions or even calling myself a specialist.

I think that the above can be applied to any field, far better that the client thinks of you as a bloody good Valet (a word they most folk can relate to in relation to there cars rather than detailer), or whatever and tells all and sundry that you are, that way I reckon you have a better chance of maintaining the bread and butter work that may not come to you from folk that are frightened of by terms like Specialist etc.
Then that puts you in a good position to promote extra services that you judge are necessary and that you are capable of doing.

No matter how good you become never lose sight of the roots of your business because when times are tough that may well be what keeps you afloat.


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## Shiny (Apr 23, 2007)

I'd like to add another what I feel quite valid point. Running a business is not just about being good at a job. You have to learn and perfect many new skills that have nothing to do with cleaning a car (or whatever your chosen profession may be). 

Whilst cleaning a car is a very important skill, to have a successful business you also have to be good at pricing, budgeting, negotiating, accounts, occasional debt collection, marketing and, amongst many other things, customers relations.

First you have to get customers, then you have to make them happy, then you have to work at keeping them.


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## Arthur Dent (Aug 2, 2011)

Shiny said:


> I'd like to add another what I feel quite valid point. Running a business is not just about being good at a job. You have to learn and perfect many new skills that have nothing to do with cleaning a car (or whatever your chosen profession may be).
> 
> Whilst cleaning a car is a very important skill, to have a successful business you also have to be good at pricing, budgeting, negotiating, accounts, occasional debt collection, marketing and, amongst many other things, customers relations.
> 
> First you have to get customers, then you have to make them happy, then you have to work at keeping them.


Spot on and dare I say a prime example of somebody that stands by what they believe in.

That`s my last post on this thread because I feel we will begin going round in circles, plus I have some marketing to get on with


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## tom-225 (Aug 30, 2009)

JakeWhite said:


> I completely understand people saying about gaining experience etc, but surely the way to gain experience is by actually doing it? But on the other side of the coin, the same people are also saying they are fed up with seeing all these new people starting a business. So if you're fed up with people starting up, but at the same time slating them for not having enough experience to become and established pro, how are they supposed to progress? My point is, none of the pro's on here were born in a workshop, with a flex rotary in one hand, a bottle of menzerna in the other and a fully experienced, established reputation. They all had to start somewhere, start their learning somewhere and start building their company somewhere. I'm sure when some of the pro's on here started up from scratch, there were other people in the same business thinking exactly what the pro's now are saying "not another one" etc etc. But did that stop you? No, clearly not else you wouldn't be here now. It's similar to when people get frustrated with learner drivers but quickly forget that they themselves were once a learner and probably had someone in the car behind them thinking the same thing. If someone has the drive and passion in a particular field and would rather make a go of it as opposed to sat on their backside all day (claiming benefits which ironically comes out of the "pro's" taxes by the way) who has the right to tell them no?


Yes mate. But you gain experiance on family amd friends cars for fres. Not paying customers cars. They are not paying you money to practise on their car.


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## JakeWhite (Oct 14, 2011)

tom-225 said:


> Yes mate. But you gain experiance on family amd friends cars for fres. Not paying customers cars. They are not paying you money to practise on their car.


So when I started doing carpentry, I should've practiced putting up roofs and stud walls on my friends and families houses instead of actually doing it properly for customers to earn a living? and when college told me to go out and find a job placement otherwise I wouldn't pass, I should've told them "Nah there's no point, I'll spend the next few years doing it for free for friends and family", hmm sure because that really would've paid for my tools and equipment to enable me to progress in my trade, how do you think apprentice's qualify? By telling their boss that they would rather do their job for free on their mates house? I think not somehow. In an ideal world where money doesn't matter, sure maybe we could all afford to practice things entirely at our leisure. But it's not that easy. Just because you're not considered a pro at something doesn't mean you should be scared to charge money for your services. I am only young but I've rectified many jobs on site that much older people than myself had 'tried' to do, one of my last jobs I was on involved near on ripping up a nearly new extension because the previous firm (who may I add are a very well known firm in my region consisting almost entirely of men above 30) did such a shocking job of the ground works and other aspects that the whole extension was about ready to crumble due to the severe amounts of damp, rot etc. I am someone who believes very firmly that if you truly believe you can make something work, then don't let anything stop you and don't try and listen to people trying to put you down or make you feel you're not good at what you do. Age may equal experience but it doesn't always mean that person is far superior to the younger lad working next to him. I do agree that people who start business's as 'just another job' with no real interest in it or motivation for that field shouldn't be doing it, but if it's something they feel 110% driven to do then I say why the hell not, we're only here once and life is way too short to sit around wondering what if until it's too late.


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## tom-225 (Aug 30, 2009)

JakeWhite said:


> So when I started doing carpentry, I should've practiced putting up roofs and stud walls on my friends and families houses instead of actually doing it properly for customers to earn a living? and when college told me to go out and find a job placement otherwise I wouldn't pass, I should've told them "Nah there's no point, I'll spend the next few years doing it for free for friends and family", hmm sure because that really would've paid for my tools and equipment to enable me to progress in my trade, how do you think apprentice's qualify? By telling their boss that they would rather do their job for free on their mates house? I think not somehow. In an ideal world where money doesn't matter, sure maybe we could all afford to practice things entirely at our leisure. But it's not that easy. Just because you're not considered a pro at something doesn't mean you should be scared to charge money for your services. I am only young but I've rectified many jobs on site that much older people than myself had 'tried' to do, one of my last jobs I was on involved near on ripping up a nearly new extension because the previous firm (who may I add are a very well known firm in my region consisting almost entirely of men above 30) did such a shocking job of the ground works and other aspects that the whole extension was about ready to crumble due to the severe amounts of damp, rot etc. I am someone who believes very firmly that if you truly believe you can make something work, then don't let anything stop you and don't try and listen to people trying to put you down or make you feel you're not good at what you do. Age may equal experience but it doesn't always mean that person is far superior to the younger lad working next to him. I do agree that people who start business's as 'just another job' with no real interest in it or motivation for that field shouldn't be doing it, but if it's something they feel 110% driven to do then I say why the hell not, we're only here once and life is way too short to sit around wondering what if until it's too late.


You said it your self you did alot of formal qualifications and had a work placement where you were supervised.

I CBA to argue it any more. You can't associate detailing with other professions.


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## dooka (Aug 1, 2006)

*A certificate means you should know and understand the theory behind what you are doing.* Just as important. Well in my eyes it is. I didn't attend to educational establishments, complete an apprenticeship then serve time in many different areas of body work/panel beating and paint for nothing. The detailing industry isn't regulated in anyway, which like other trades, allows cowboys to sneak in. Maybe we should self regulate. Point out the hood ones and bad ones. After all, we wouldn't recommend a bad plumber to our friends would we. I know a lot of people in the building game, they all seem to talk to one another, and know who is good and who isn't, who is experienced and who isn't, Who is a billy bullpooper and who isn't, yada yada etc. I think it is the same in all trades. I am professional enough not to shout names out in public though 

I have no issue either with people setting up a business, after all, competition is healthy. I think, and this is just my opinion, that people should at least gain some experience and become competent before they start. Start off as a junior in an industry, learn how to sweep up and make tea, then start learning the trade ..

Like I said earlier in this thread. I get emails and phone calls asking the most basic and fundamental of questions, then I see them setting up and spouting a load of old poop about how good they are and charging a fair amount of money. Yes we all deserve to earn some money. But surely they should be open and honest. I have always been open and honest about what I know and don't know and what skills I actually have..

Sure start up a business by all means, this country needs more small businesses, but start with a proper pricing structure that mirrors your experience. Yes, some guys charge big bucks, but on a whole, their experience and reputation allows this..

I do think that a good few people may be getting a little nervy over what is being discussed in this thread. Why, are you being dishonest or have something to hide..

I usually keep well out of things like this, but after the amount of emails, pm's and phone calls, asking stupid questions, then setting up a business, I feel something needs to be said. Agree or disagree, these are my opinions and my opinions only..

Rant over .


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## amiller (Jan 1, 2009)

The more the merrier I say. If you can't stand the heat...

What this country needs is more people willing to take a (calculated) risk and give things a go. Too many people dont push themselves or do something they believe in. Yes there are hurdles, yes there are risks and yes it might not work, but for goodness sake, you need to give it a go.

All the best I say. :thumb:


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## Guest (Jul 21, 2012)

This is quite a harsh topic to be honest. I understand what you mean by splash and dash - there's to many around this area, even a local chap tried his best to sell his 'waterless wash' at just £5 a wash which after I started up, he highlighted bits out of my website and so forth. On the other side of things I do honour people that do it right and go on training courses to bring themselves up to a very high, professional standard. I would say there's only a few around the area that have a detailing studio and do it bloody well. 

I've noticed all sorts of so called 'tradesmen' around here in shoddy vans, scruffy dressed and no means of contact details bar a mobile number. I personally done it all legally, professionally and made sure everything visually was 110% before I started to make a damm good impression on first views of the customer and businesses. I would like to think so anyway...

There will always be an agruement over this issue. I laugh at shoddy people because they get nowhere. I'm guessing the majorly of people on here are professionals, therefore know the know how and understand between professional and 'in it to make money'. I done detailing (until I bought a house) because I loved it, not actually for the money, I know other people that do as well. Of course money is money but I 95% of the time spent much longer on a job just because I would get 'carried away' and be proud of the end result. I wish I went down the route of a studio but didn't have the investment. After a few meeting days organised through here, you get to know a great deal of fantastic businesses and people. I just wish everyone done it all properly like this.

At the end of the day, you know for yourself if the person is a 'slap dash' company/person or not. Take a in depth look on google, have they any awards, do they look and present themselves in a mind blowing way or just by speaking to them will tell you rather than prices. Yes if its dirty cheap I would stay clear but theres people out there charging say £50 and others a few hundred that can get a vehicle to the same standard. It all depends on the person doing it and there enthusiasium on detailing/valeting. After a recent meet not far from me - I can tell you I was blown away with the knowledge and work of a certain person and when money allows I would 110%trust his work. 

Anyone can make a car look clean - not everyone can correct paintwork to a degree of excellence.


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## Stezz (Apr 29, 2011)

I wouldn't consider turning my hobby into a business even though I get a lot of people advising me to do so.

The last time I did was when I was an amateur photographer, I spent years learning the trade then went pro. After a couple of years I gave it up due to getting bored and losing the love of photography I had when I was an amateur.

So any local detailers will have no worries about me invading their patch.


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## Reflectology (Jul 29, 2009)

aaronfife said:


> This is quite a harsh topic to be honest. I understand what you mean by splash and dash - there's to many around this area, even a local chap tried his best to sell his 'waterless wash' at just £5 a wash which after I started up, he highlighted bits out of my website and so forth. On the other side of things I do honour people that do it right and go on training courses to bring themselves up to a very high, professional standard. I would say there's only a few around the area that have a detailing studio and do it bloody well.
> 
> I've noticed all sorts of so called 'tradesmen' around here in shoddy vans, scruffy dressed and no means of contact details bar a mobile number. I personally done it all legally, professionally and made sure everything visually was 110% before I started to make a damm good impression on first views of the customer and businesses. I would like to think so anyway...
> 
> ...


Not quite sure what you mean by that as I am a full blooded yorkshireman and for want of a word "talk r8 proper grt britain"....so what you are saying is that even an accent can determine the quality....experience or lack there of....

never have I heard such tosh....

One point again is that if you look at it this way....someone does a minor correction detail for £100....and upon completion the customer sees a strikethrough....what would you expect the person who did the job to say....

1.Ok mate i will sort it for you....

but the customer says he will get a quote and bill you....

thats gonna cost way more than £100...

I would say the more likely answer from the guy doing it would be....

"What do you want for £100...I am not a pro you know I do this as a hobby....you could have paid 4 maybe 500 quid for it...."

This is though not what I think could happen but it has happened and by someone on here....its that kind of attitude that gives the whole trade a bad name....

The way I see is if you are prepared to spend a couple of hundred quid a month on insurance as most of us (not all) do then by all means make a go of it as thats what I would call being committed to the job....but if its beer money with no concerns of what could happen next then I guess thats what the thread is all about....


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## craigeh123 (Dec 26, 2011)

So out of interest what insurance do you need ? Public liability ?


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## Auto Finesse (Jan 10, 2007)

Reflectology said:


> Not quite sure what you mean by that as I am a full blooded yorkshireman and for want of a word "talk r8 proper grt britain"....so what you are saying is that even an accent can determine the quality....experience or lack there of....
> 
> never have I heard such tosh....


I think thats a bit harsh, I don't think thats what he means, he's not saying you will tell if there slap dash by their accent, he's saying by talking over your requirements with someone you would get a better feel for what their about and how they work, I understand and agree with that.

For instance, if you where to talk to them and they say "yer we will run a mop over it then glaze and wax it up for ya" it would ring alarm bells, rather then if the person on the other end of the phone was to take the time to go through firstly your requirements and then explain what services they offer that would suit them, for instance "ok what are you looking to get from the detail, are there certain areas need addressing, we could A carry out an enhancement detail a single stage polish that will remove a minimal amount of clear coat and improve the appearance, and reduce the paint defects by a considerable amount but not totally remove every single defect, however those left would be dramatically reduced or B carry out full correction, a 3-5 stage treatment, this removes more clear coat, but delivers better results, this is really more suited to weekend/second or show cars as opposed to daily drivers"

Taking the time to understand someones needs, and then explaining the options in a simple but professional manner.



craigeh123 said:


> So out of interest what insurance do you need ? Public liability ?


No quite a bit more than that really, you need PL, plus items worked upon and defective workmanship, then if you intend to move vehicles road risks, and then if you have a unit you will also need internal cover, it can equate to quite a yearly premium but its worth having if you intend to do things properly.


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## wylie coyote (Jul 15, 2007)

Perhaps the best thing would be for the Pros to set up a professional body. Ensure everyone who wants to be a member has been certified to meet minimum standards. Bit like the Guild of Master Builders. Surely this is the only way for Joe Public to differentiate between detailers? There will always be those who want the cheapest price but also those who will use a detailers that's part of a professional body that checks people regularly to ensure they meet minimum standards?:thumb:


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## Guest (Jul 21, 2012)

Reflectology said:


> Not quite sure what you mean by that as I am a full blooded yorkshireman and for want of a word "talk r8 proper grt britain"....so what you are saying is that even an accent can determine the quality....experience or lack there of....
> 
> never have I heard such tosh....=QUOTE]
> 
> If you read the answer I gave it's got nothing to do with accent. Why would I do that? Don't give out false or explosive gestures like that you muppet. I'm scottish so I don't understand why I would slate a accent... come on!!


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## Beau Technique (Jun 21, 2010)

Im sure this thread will soon be closed or get right out of sorts but I will add my 2 pence worth.
Im all for new start up's when they have been in the trade a decent length of time. Many cars out there and not all can be cleaned by one man ( or woman ) Keeps things fun with a little competition from those that have worked hard at getting where there at. Great tradesmen are few and far between due to quite an influx of quick start ups. Its been made so easy to start a business now what with free websites, easily attainable products / machinery and a wealth of knowledge on forums which are the help and hindrance of this topic to a degree.

So, you've cleaned your own car a few times with a few latest fad products and got a what could be deemed _acceptable standard of finish_. You've then done the odd friends cars for beer tokens. Kudos for trying and not charging them or charging them for materials only but removal of kudos if you are over confident and hack too much paint away when machine polishing and do a half cut job. Know your limitations.:thumb:

Have you ever been in a trade environment?

If not. Might be a wise idea to do so. 
You can learn a lot of positives regardless of the usual BS folks are typing due to them having had there blinkers on when at a dealership or they are just copy typing what everyone else has done and said in the past. You will find that even some of the longer established ( in general and on DW ) guys started out doing basic valeting even bus cleaning etc so its not a bad thing starting at the bottom and working your way up.

You cannot buy your way to the top regardless of training schemes and having all the latest costly tech and fanciest of products. Without an idea your just a man with the gear.

Ever been in a situation where you haven't brought your latest fad products that will help do the job easier and got stuck for how to do the job? Ever got asked to machine polish a car that is a paint type you've never worked on. Defects are bad and your chosen 3 trick wonder kit doesn't cut it?
If so, _don't start_. You need many an angle of knowledge to get by in this trade. I've been in the car care / detailing / valeting / auto aesthetics rejuvenation ( whatever the latest name is ) trade just over 17 years now and still find each day as exciting as the next. One thing I have learnt is the way to adapt round situations. Work out best methods and always have material for every eventuality ( not just faddy, this months buzz ) but true, trialled and tested products that work. Do what they say on the tin.

*Find what works and stick with it!* ( sure Mike Phillips said this years back and best advice in the world imo )

If I start. What do I need?

Knowledge which is only gained through time service. If your asking this, you are already at a bad start. Surely you must know all the in's and out's prior to starting out? Or is that just my take on things?
Do ensure your insured for public liability and vehicle indemnity / damage to vehicles worked upon. Quite a few coast through without it but if your wanting to do it right, pay the price. One wrong move and it can be costly for either your customer or if you have morals, you. Insurance is there for a reason.



wylie coyote said:


> Perhaps the best thing would be for the Pros to set up a professional body. Ensure everyone who wants to be a member has been certified to meet minimum standards. Bit like the Guild of Master Builders. Surely this is the only way for Joe Public to differentiate between detailers? There will always be those who want the cheapest price but also those who will use a detailers that's part of a professional body that checks people regularly to ensure they meet minimum standards?:thumb:


It would be great if a governing body was brought to the table. Issue is, most governing bodies are governed by folks that have no time service know how nor have any forms of understanding to the trade. If a consortium of pro's were to do this would it be deemed serious and feasible? What qualifications do we have bar time service. There would be so much hoo ha about this and potentially quite the stale mate if im honest.


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## Eric the Red (Sep 14, 2010)

Im with dooka, russ reflectology and beau technique on this, you only have to look at their work in the studio to understand what is necessarry to reach the level of detailing that is needed to make money in this game, ive been on here about 18mths now, done a few vehicles, very simple jobs nothing major and what i have found is you do a decent job and people say why dont you do this as a living, simple answer im not good enough, somebody posted "tell me what pads and polish i need for a certain vehicle, i replied use the search button and was told what sort of advice is that, that annoys me, you need to do an apprenticeship regardless of age, you would"nt expect a 16yr old bricklayer do an apprenticeship for 3yrs then build your house, you have to keep learning no matter what, and on a side note im appalled at the level of grammer and spelling from people on here when it is one of the fundemental parts of life


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## trv8 (Dec 30, 2007)

Eric the Red said:


> *Im* with dooka, *russ reflectology *and *beau technique *on this, you only have to look at their work in the studio to understand what is *necessarry* to reach the level of detailing that is needed to make money in this game, *ive* been on here about 18mths now, done a few vehicles, very simple jobs nothing major and what* i *have found is you do a decent job and people say why dont you do this as a living, simple answer *im* not good enough, somebody posted "tell me what pads and polish i need for a certain vehicle, *i *replied use the search button and was told what sort of advice is that, that annoys me, you need to do an apprenticeship regardless of age, you *would"nt* expect a 16yr old bricklayer do an apprenticeship for 3yrs then build your house, you have to keep learning no matter what,
> 
> and on a side note *im* appalled at the level of grammer and spelling from people on here when it is one of the fundemental parts of life


:lol: Oh deary me .
I'm no member of the grammar police, but before you go and comment on other people's grammatical errors, maybe you should check your own post first :thumb:.


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## simonjj (Sep 25, 2010)

trv8 said:


> :lol: Oh deary me .
> I'm no member of the grammer police, but before you go and comment on other people's grammatical errors, maybe you should check your own post first :thumb:.


"and on a side note im appalled at the level of grammer and spelling from people on here when it is one of the *fundemental* parts of life"

You missed one:
Fundamental


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## trv8 (Dec 30, 2007)

Wax Attack said:


> You missed one:
> Fundamental


:doublesho ......:thumb:.


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## Shiny (Apr 23, 2007)

One of the first laws of avoiding internet forum self ownage (or pwn4g3) is irony aversion - when commenting on grammar, under no circumstance type "grammer".


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## Mr.Buff (Aug 5, 2011)

Anyone thinking of becoming a valet/detailer should definately listen to the advice from the pro's on here when considering starting out. 

When I first started out this forum didnt exist, other valeting/car cleaning related forums were about but information and advice was scarce. I made many mistakes and wrong choices in both purchasing the right equiptment and marketing myself. 

The motortrade is a tough business in general, starting any business is tough. Experience (imo) is everything. Cleaning/detailing your own vehicle at your own leisure is a good way to get a feel for the job, it's is not a true representation of running a valeting business though.

You can turn up to someones house with all your kit and equiptment, eager and willing... but you need to KNOW what your doing.

Not sure if someone has already suggested this but here is my advice to gain experience and confidence.

Try and approach a Motor Trader with a used car forecourt, they will obviously already have a Valeter but in my experience Used Car Dealers swop and change there tradesmen all the time. In my area (Derby) traders pay between 30-50 pounds for a full valet, perhaps offer your services at £40. Explain to the trader that a machine polish would be beneficial on top of that full valet but dont tell them yet how much yet. Offer them a FREE demo Valet + Machine Polish, preferably on a dark car. They will almost always take you up on the offer (free valet! kerching!). When you get the car, mint the b***ocks out of it. Hopefully you'll end up getting some work from it.

The reason im saying approach a used car trader is although the money is often poor, its at least a steady income when starting out. Ive worked for traders for 7 years (still do now), ive valeted thousands of vehicles, ive machine polished hundereds of cars, all different makes and models, different paint types, colours etc. Ive practiced with products, made mistakes.. burnt through some panels (lol), caught the edges of plastics with the buffer, learnt how deep i can push a scratch, practiced the perfect finish, wet sanded panels, practiced different methods etc etc. 

Basicly ive used the trade vehicles as practice toys. They dont belong to anyone as such as a trader is just moving them on. Ive pushed products and paintwork to the limits and learnt alot, still learning everyday infact! If you make a mistake (and you will) its usualy no biggy, worst case scenario the trader will have to paint a panel (happened to me once), usualy they dont notice or care about a tiny burn through. Ive never used a PTG, ive practiced soley by eye, i will be purchasing a PTG at some point but i think its a good idea to learn paint without one. Not like when your working on someones 50k merc pride and joy, mistakes will be embarrasing, costly and harmfull to your reputation. Anyone starting out needs to get out there and Practice hard, learn your trade. Especially paintwork correction!

Mart


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## Brazo (Oct 27, 2005)

Guys sadly this is one of the reasons that a number of DW threads do get locked/deleted and for some reason it then reflects badly upon us within certain quarters. 

Please keep thread on topic and no more name calling this isn't the playground.


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## Reflectology (Jul 29, 2009)

aaronfife said:


> Reflectology said:
> 
> 
> > Not quite sure what you mean by that as I am a full blooded yorkshireman and for want of a word "talk r8 proper grt britain"....so what you are saying is that even an accent can determine the quality....experience or lack there of....
> ...


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## alxg (May 3, 2009)

Wow, quite warm in here isn't it.......

Personally, I would say that because of recent press coverage of the subject of "£5k Car Wash" and similar ridiculous cases that "Detailing" is seen as a way of making some large amounts of money for what is essentially just cleaning a car; hell, we can all do that can't we?

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for enterprise - especially in these times of welfare dependency - so if you feel you have what it takes to make a business then more power to you fella :thumb:.........but.........there is a great saying I think applies to so many things in life and that is don't get your capabilities mixed up with your intentions; I know that I can safely clean a car without inflicting any more damage to it, I also know that I feel confident enough to take a rotary polisher to my car (and even other F&F's) and remove swirl marks and light scratches. I've even wet sanded some more serious defects out of paintwork within what I deem to be safe limits of the paint (using a PTG before I get flamed) *but* I still look at the work of many of the established guys on here and think "Jesus I am no way near that level" although I would love to be.

Could I make some money doing what I do? Probably, if I charge for materials used etc. but when people say I should do it full time I just laugh and say I'm no way near good, or quick enough.

I can see it being frustratiting to many on here, but it seems to be so easy to set up a business these days without any formal regulation, and there are always the more unscrupulous types that try to make a quick buck without having any idea of what they are doing. That doesn't just apply to detailing, it covers pretty much all areas sadly.

My closing comment is that respectable, capable professionals will always flourish through word of mouth and referred business on top of advertising etc. and that cannot be bought, only earned.


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## Spirit Detailing (Mar 29, 2007)

I can understand everyone's perspective in this thread. I don't agree with all of it but its great to see the various opinions. 

Its obvious everyone has their own view on detailing and what it is exactly. However, there is no precise definition of detailing. And in my opinion, there are no detailers - only apprentice detailers. It is a constantly evolving skill.

And I'm all for newbies starting up. Its important that people aim to better themselves, try new things. I admire entrepeneurs and skilled crafts /tradespeople. In fact you will find that the successful pro detailers are both entrepeneurs AND craftspeople. 

The issue I see is where to get Detailing training. I'm in Ireland and resources here are limited by way of training and development. But I have certain requirements about training before I blindly pay for a day or two with a company. For example, I want to know:
Is the trainer a qualified trainer.
Should a self-taught detailer give training. Is that good enough
Who has the trainer trained with
When did they last go for industry training themselves
Do they have qualifications and where from
How current are they on latest paints, products, equipment developments.
Is the training material as up to date as it should be
Do they understand the latest plastics, paint, leather, fabrics, etc or do they just browse the internet and forums like everyone else. 
Does the company work on real everyday cars or just low-use sports and prestige cars
Do they understand both the dirt and the surface it is contaminating
Do they have a vested interest in only training on the company's own brand of products. There is a conflict of interest if this is the case and it won't properly train the student. 
Do they offer continuing support and mentoring to trainees..
Lots more important questions that need to be answered! 

Down the years, like many of you oldies on here, I have seen detailers come and go on the scene. Here on DW right at the birth of the forum, I watched many newbies take photos of some very "iffy" details and post them up here. Some of them are now high profile sponsoring companies.:wave: What is undeniable is that as their detailing skills improved, so have their marketing and photography skills. Some even employ marketing companies to mentor them in them in their public relations and business strategies. (should I be letting the cat out of the bag, guys??)

So I'm all for newbies starting up. Let them put in the time, endure the busy times with the quiet. Let them be ready for the 7am starts and the 3am finishes. Let them read all the forum posts, believing that they contain good information and sound advice. Its all education and development, testing and deleting of data. Spend hundreds on this wax or a fiver on that sealant and see which works best. If they are smart enough they will progress to make a mediocre living out of it. 

At the end of the day, its really what you do as a business person that will see you through. Not as a detailer. Experience counts for squat if you have a neck like a jockey's dangling bits and can convince people that what you do has real, very real value. 

But my honest advice to newbies starting out would be not to go into high-end detailing, no matter how "glamorous" you think it is. Its still just polishing somebody else's lambo or ferrari, so forget about "social inclusion". We polish Sports cars so that makes us cool and great detailers!! LMAO. Recognise the trade for what it is please!! 

Valeting is where the more achievable money is. I know guys with several busy valeting bays that make way more money than me. They have two or three low-paid labourers doing the hard-slog in each of their shops around the city. And these are the shops that do the splash and dash service. The majority of punters don't want to know about high-end, high-quality work, they just want a cheap cleaning of the car. 

Cash in on that attitude and you will be driving high-end cars, not "detailing" them!! 

Thanks for reading!! 

Brian (the car-cleaner!! )


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## jebus (Jun 2, 2009)

I can see all sides of the arguments in here, and think that some people are being a little unfair, but then again most things related to business are often unfair but at complaining about people coming into the sector is pointless, competition is key to business's continually improving themselves, which is a good things for business and consumers alike.

The point that was made first about being very annoyed about people that have "detailed" a few mates cars and then start up as a business and act like they are the bee's knee's is a valid one they could just be a arrogant moron, but if they feel confident to charge what they do, please their customers and provide a good level of service then well done to them.

People charging a few quid for doing the odd friends & family's cars is fine, it is not robbing business from the people that do it for a living, its just helping out friends and family to get something i.e. a "detailed" car that they may very well never be able to afford to pay for, but why should not having a lot of money to pay a business mean that they shouldn't be allowed a nice cleaned and polished car, However if somebody is doing it on a very regular basis as a "hobby for beer tokens" set-up that's wrong and unfair.

One things that agree with is that getting a email from Mr. Joe Bloggs about were can i get cheap buckets, how do I fit a pad onto my polisher and how do I use the thing. Then 2 weeks later they stick up a website stating they are professional, trained and highly experienced etc is not so much a cause to angry than it is to laugh at just how stupid people can be, and all you can do is hope that they are not going to-do that much damage to people's cars or the trade's overall reputation. 

I think that everybody needs to just be a little more civil here on DW, and work together to find ways to help the "true" professionals and show off the examples of good working practice's, excellent customer service that is often demonstrated on here than moaning about everything and everybody.



Wait a minute, this is on the internet...so sod it FIGHT! lol


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## VIPER (May 30, 2007)

wylie coyote said:


> Perhaps the best thing would be for the *Pros to set up a professional body.* Ensure everyone who wants to be a member has been certified to meet minimum standards. Bit like the Guild of Master Builders. Surely this is the only way for Joe Public to differentiate between detailers? There will always be those who want the cheapest price but also those who will use a detailers that's part of a professional body that checks people regularly to ensure they meet minimum standards?:thumb:


Back when I was manager on here I suggested that _at least_ once, and frankly it was greeted with such apathy and/or derision (although not by everyone), that I just thought; _"You know what, it's no skin of my nose, don't bother then"_, and never broached the subject again.


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## Shiny (Apr 23, 2007)

VIPER said:


> Back when I was manager on here I suggested that _at least_ once, and frankly it was greeted with such apathy and/or derision (although not by everyone), that I just thought; _"You know what, it's no skin of my nose, don't bother then"_, and never broached the subject again.


Over the years i've been asked if i would like to get involved in at least three proposals for an independent governing membership scheme. My involvement would have been managing an affiliate insurance scheme that would mean the members would at least have proper insurance in place and it would have been branded and discounted etc.

To be honest though, as soon the organisers started to look at it seriously, it became quite apparent that there was tremendous amount of work involved, to the point that people would effectively have to give up their day jobs to try and manage running it, obviously without income, or at least to begin with.

Also, if i recall correctly, there was a lot of red tape to make an "independent" and officially recognised body. There are currently a few about you have pay membership for, but they are not independently run and have no real meaning in the real world.

To have a formal body would need things like an approval process, complaints procedure for customers, the power to impose restrictions or revoke membership, promotion of the approved body and all sorts.

It would be great for the industry, but until such a time (if ever) the government make their own little standards company and you have no choice (imposed regulation can be costly to a business, the FSA for example costs us a big wad of money each year and we have to spend hours and hours to ensure continued compliance), i think that sadly a well managed independent "voluntary" membership scheme will be very difficult to ever get off the ground.


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## AndyC (Oct 25, 2005)

VIPER said:


> Back when I was manager on here I suggested that _at least_ once, and frankly it was greeted with such apathy and/or derision (although not by everyone), that I just thought; _"You know what, it's no skin of my nose, don't bother then"_, and never broached the subject again.


Same here 

Frankly DW should have started rolling this a long time ago - they've put themselves in a central position and are ideally placed to do it. There's a bunch of reasons why it hasn't happened and probably never will.


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## cossienuts (Oct 14, 2008)

as a member on here for a short ammount of time maybe my opinion wont be valid...but this must have been about the tenth time ive seen this subject come up..why are all of the "pro detailers" on here so worried about "cowboys" starting up? surely if you are so good a little competion would not phase you merely spur you on? this is my thought on it!

Also its quite off putting for someone such as myself to see the negativity put towards anyone who wishes to try to better thier situation and dares to ask any questions about starting up or running a "car cleaning buisness".


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## Bmwjc (Apr 2, 2012)

Jagnet said:


> It's not unique to valeting and detailing. It wasn't so long ago that the pub trade was attracting more than its fair share of retirees looking to invest their retirement funds attracted by what, on the surface, looked to be a nice lifestyle. "I've drunk in pubs for years, I can do that." The emerging big pub cos were more than happy to oblige by selling them a lease.
> 
> Low barriers to entry and the opportunity to work for yourself making money from a hobby you enjoy. It's not unsurprising that it ticks a lot of boxes for people.


this is my profession, and your rights its amazing how many people think they know what they are talking about and the "i'd be able to do that" attitude. ive seen a few people actually do this and then fail... quickly!!!

my opinion is those that are good will survive, cowboys, bodgers and amateurs soon get caught out especially by people who know there stuff but are smart enough to let the pro do the work!


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## Kelly @ KDS (Aug 4, 2008)

So i was once a guy that thought " i could do that its easy" 

well no one is going to be able to tell me one way or the other , i am the sort of guy thats got to try it for himself. 

so started up my company from nothing , invested a lot of money in the early days , sold my house and with the cash started the KDS detailing rolling, no one can ever take away that i "gave it a go" , nor would i take it away from someone else for trying. 

Its not been anywhere as easy as first thought. 

But i am still here by learning investing employing more and more , plus pushing new trades and services all the time, not once have i had a customer ask me "how many years have i been doing this" and why would i need to tell anyone either . 

MY work speaks for its self , well should i say mine and the KDS staffs work speaks for its self. 

A customer with a problem with his car is not going to give a toss how long you been trading 

But a customer choosing a company MAY choose a company thats been trading for a longer time, but does not make them a better company 

Maybe i should of done my homework and joined a few forums , and even posted asking for advice about starting a business on here before actually starting up my business, as it would of saved me time and money. 


edit to say , you dont see me posting about products , fancy camera angles , different lights sources , claiming a LSP does this and does that , but this is just my style and personality really , 

others use the above to gain a different Audience and customer base , both work for different reasons and is the Point Of Sale for that person or company. 

Its for the customer to choose what he wants and after as its a free world 


kelly


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## mass (Aug 16, 2007)

dcj said:


> No disrespect to the pair off you who I,m sure do an excellent job but unless you are charging the same rate as the pros (and not cheaper) then its you and the 100s of other amateur detailers on here who are putting them out of business or making them struggle and not the valeters.
> The bulk of my work is the so called "splash and dash" (Detailing snobbery words,not mine)at home or business places because thats what company and personal budgets allow for. Its nothing to do with "people dont care about their car",and more to do with what they can afford.If they didnt care at all they wouldnt have the car cleaned at all.
> 
> BTW,one of the last people to enquire about a valeting business was currently unemployed,so should he stay that way or try to make a go of something he enjoys?


Well said mate. :thumb:


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## Damien (May 8, 2011)

Just out of interest... 
say you have been properly valeting evenings & weekends, for the past half a dozen years or more and keeping to very high standards, and over the past couple of years you have been building your skills at the paint enhancement or correction side of things. How many more years or how many cars do you have to do before you can advertise this service...

:buffer: :detailer:


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## tom-225 (Aug 30, 2009)

Wow abit of a thread revival here.

Just had a reread of it all



dcj said:


> No disrespect to the pair off you who I,m sure do an excellent job but unless you are charging the same rate as the pros (and not cheaper) then its you and the 100s of other amateur detailers on here who are putting them out of business or making them struggle and not the valeters.
> The bulk of my work is the so called "splash and dash" (Detailing snobbery words,not mine)at home or business places because thats what company and personal budgets allow for. Its nothing to do with "people dont care about their car",and more to do with what they can afford.If they didnt care at all they wouldnt have the car cleaned at all.
> 
> BTW,one of the last people to enquire about a valeting business was currently unemployed,so should he stay that way or try to make a go of something he enjoys?


You say its me doing cheap jobs etc bud what makes you say i do detailing for any kind on monetary benifit?

Also there are dozens of genuine pros on this site who arent supporters who just sit quirtly abd read, occationally that post some advise where it is needed.

My problem isnt with members doing some detailing. Its cowboys with no experiance, skill or knowledge wantijg to play with the big boys who have spent ages learning and developing their skill and business.


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## tom-225 (Aug 30, 2009)

Damien said:


> Just out of interest...
> say you have been properly valeting evenings & weekends, for the past half a dozen years or more and keeping to very high standards, and over the past couple of years you have been building your skills at the paint enhancement or correction side of things. How many more years or how many cars do you have to do before you can advertise this service...
> 
> :buffer: :detailer:


It isnt time or number of jobs carried out that dictates the level of skill and experianced gained bud its not that simple is it. I mean you could do 100 cars but if they are all lovely soft honda paint for example with no thin areas or sticky patches. Then really youve only done 1 car after all that. A large varied portfolio needs to be built to deveop properly.


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