# Citrus and Snow foam no longer for me (Koch Chemie Greenstar Review)



## wanner69

Ok guys here's a little review on Koch Chemie Greenstar product. After trying various prewashes as citruses and snowfoams over the years I've always maintained that these products don't really remove much more dirt than just plain water through the pressure washer. Yes there is a slight difference but not enough to warrant forking out ££ for if there's not a massive difference.

A white car is the best example to show you my findings after a quick trial test.

Pics below to show you and in order of trial.

So here is the rear end of my car to show what I started with.



On the left side only, Valet pro citrus 1:6 applied with pump sprayer and left to soak for 5 mins then pressure washed off



Dirt was very much still present so Bilt Hamber foam applied through lance on left side again.



Results on left side





Still plenty of dirt remaining on the paint surface. 50/50 of prewashed left side and untouched right side so yes there is a difference but I plain old water I believe would have given me similar results to the left.



Now for the Koch Chemie Greenstar product. I decided to try it at a ratio of 1:10 and see what effect it had on my current lsp which is a d€f1initive development wax.

Again applied through a pump sprayer and left to soak for 5 mins





Resulting in a massive cleaning difference



Remember the left side, VP followed by Bilt Hamber



So in conclusion, citrus and foam washes removed about 50% of the dirt, Greenstar removed 90%. As for my lsp it's still going strong. I may even dilute further next time and see what the results are again. Overall very happy and needless to say I will not be buying or using snow foams and citrus products again. Greenstar gave me the nearest touchless wash that I'll ever get.





http://www.halfords.com/motoring/ca...36b54a327e&istItemId=xtlamllaqw&istBid=tztx&_


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## Luke M

That's some difference. One to try from the looks of it


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## Ads_ClioV6

Brilliant will be trying this as agree with above
Thanks for posting


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## Devilman

Thanks for the review. I will also try this out.
Anyone spotted this with free postage? 
Dm


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## shaunwistow

Nice review mate, looks like you've found your perfect pre-wash.


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## Ross

Seen Greenstar on Facebook,it looks really effective.


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## Kam09

So it's 100% LSP safe at 1:10? Does it contain anything that could cause any damage to the paintwork after long term use?


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## Kam09

I'm about to purchase bh autofoam but these results might sway to go for green star instead..


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## Ross

http://www.slimsdetailing.co.uk/koc...iversal-cleaner.html#product_tabs_description


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## wanner69

Kam09 said:


> So it's 100% LSP safe at 1:10? Does it contain anything that could cause any damage to the paintwork after long term use?


I've been speaking with Koch chemie and they said anything above 1:6 should be lsp safe. Bare in mind though many waxes and sealants vary. I'll be trying 1:15 next also


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## Deje

Do not want to add mote in your cup , but you are probably using different dilutions ratios because you are using BH with lance, it will probably be 1:20 (depending on your PW + lance), you had 1:10 with Koch, test BH in a spray bottle 1:10.


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## wanner69

Deje said:


> Do not want to add mote in your cup , but you are probably using different dilutions ratios because you are using BH with lance, it will probably be 1:20 (depending on your PW + lance), you had 1:10 with Koch, test BH in a spray bottle 1:10.


No worries mate but yes know what you're saying. Much more diluted through the lance. VP was supposed to be a brilliant pre wash but at 1:6 that ain't the case either


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## Simonrev

WOW .. certainly a big difference ... thanks for taking the time to review


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## Deje

wanner69 said:


> No worries mate but yes know what you're saying. Much more diluted through the lance. VP was supposed to be a brilliant pre wash but at 1:6 that ain't the case either


Make a test with the same dilution ratios vs BH. and if it turns out that Koch is better again, I buy 10l!:driver:


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## cleslie

Great car too!


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## Peter77

Interesting results. Thanks for the review. Definitely one product to try out


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## JoeP

I did a similar test today involving VP snow foam and VP citrus pre-wash. They both surprised me at how poor their results were. Going to purchase green star and see for myself! 

Nice car by the way and thank you for highlighting green star!


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## DLGWRX02

I wonder how greenstar differs from every other APC on the market. I'm not saying it didn't do a great job but i can't see it being any safer on your paintwork than using a flash or Jeyes APC diluted down, which is ideal for stripping back lsp's ready for a fresh coat.


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## wish wash

It says it's highly alkaline. It did a great job of cleaning but will it degrade your lsp


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## Blueberry

I've started using this too. I've used it diluted 1:15 and it takes 90% of the dirt off my white paintwork with ease. I use it through a chemical sprayer and it's a perfect combination. LSP is still beading perfectly (Fireball). Even better is that it costs £5 for a litre which makes it great value for money.


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## wanner69

wish wash said:


> It says it's highly alkaline. It did a great job of cleaning but will it degrade your lsp


Not degraded my lsp at 1:10


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## Brian1612

For the people saying 'I have used this once and my LSP is fine' the thing is it isn't going to degrade your LSP with one single application. Just as an observation, it won't instantly strip or degrade your LSP after one use. You might find washing your cash once per week over a month that this will indeed degrade your wax much more than a more gentle snow foam. 

It is finding a fine line between cleaning power and LSP safety as pre washes are maintenance wash products. Personally I would only use these type of strong pre washes when you plan a full detail. Regardless the cleaning power does look good.


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## wanner69

Brian1612 said:


> For the people saying 'I have used this once and my LSP is fine' the thing is it isn't going to degrade your LSP with one single application. Just as an observation, it won't instantly strip or degrade your LSP after one use. You might find washing your cash once per week over a month that this will indeed degrade your wax much more than a more gentle snow foam.
> 
> It is finding a fine line between cleaning power and LSP safety as pre washes are maintenance wash products. Personally I would only use these type of strong pre washes when you plan a full detail. Regardless the cleaning power does look good.


Totally agree Brian with what you say, I have that much wax that applying after one week or 8 weeks doesn't bother me, I enjoy wax application and removal.
What does bother me is prewashing with crap results so hence this purchase now of GS


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## cadmunkey

Love these kind of real world tests, thanks for posting your results. Have a great Christmas (and hopefully this stuff is in some January sales!)


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## fatdazza

Kam09 said:


> So it's 100% LSP safe at 1:10? Does it contain anything that could cause any damage to the paintwork after long term use?


Any harsh cleaner will degrade wax. Lsp safe is pretty meaningless. Many harsh cleaners may not strip wax totally I.e there may still be evidence of some protection through beading, but they will certainly reduce the life of the lsp. If you define lsp safe as not stripping wax totally, then a lot of harsh tfrs will clean very well and still leave some protection. Don't however expect more than a few washes form a show wax


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## chongo

Cheers Wayne for the review:thumb: this stuff must have some kick in it, if it out performed VP and BH Auto foam at the same time:doublesho definitely getting some of this.


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## Dr_T

Just ordered some from amazon to try


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## Bigpikle

Surely the point of a pre-wash is simply to remove the worst of the muck and major debris that could cause major marring during the primary wash? 

Using a presure washer with a serious VOLUME throughput of water, not just pressure, will make the biggest difference to washing power and a bigger difference than wash chemical. My Kranzle pumps 10L of water/min compared to typical Karchers that pump about 6L. Thats almost twice as much water rinsing the panel in the same amount of time and a far better and cheaper way to pre-wash the worst grime off before a 'proper' wash.


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## bigkahunaburger

Bigpikle said:


> Surely the point of a pre-wash is simply to remove the worst of the muck and major debris that could cause major marring during the primary wash?
> 
> Using a presure washer with a serious VOLUME throughput of water, not just pressure, will make the biggest difference to washing power and a bigger difference than wash chemical. My Kranzle pumps 10L of water/min compared to typical Karchers that pump about 6L. Thats almost twice as much water rinsing the panel in the same amount of time and a far better and cheaper way to pre-wash the worst grime off before a 'proper' wash.


That's great but by using a prewash you can shift even more muck before contact washing 

Prewash is really cheap, and fun.


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## Bigpikle

really? I think the OP just showed you didnt really?

All you do is waste time, money & create mess for little gain and erode your LSP.


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## DrEskimo

Bigpikle said:


> really? I think the OP just showed you didnt really?
> 
> All you do is waste time, money & create mess for little gain and erode your LSP.


Technically he didn't:

"so yes there is a difference but I plain old water I believe would have given me similar results to the left."

So he believes it would have, but didn't actually test it.
There was however another thread where a member (might be a mod) does show a 50:50 with rinse vs pre-wash and using make up pads on his mini, clearly shows pre-wash + rinse is better than rinse alone. Sorry I cant find it atm!


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## armufti

Honestly does it matter if it's lsp safe? I end up going over the car with my lsp regardless of if it has visibly degraded or not. 

Sent from my SM-N910C using Tapatalk


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## wanner69

armufti said:


> Honestly does it matter if it's lsp safe? I end up going over the car with my lsp regardless of if it has visibly degraded or not.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910C using Tapatalk


Totally agree bud. At 1:10 in my trial my lsp was not affected. Even if it was I would just reapply my wax. End of


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## cheekymonkey

armufti said:


> Honestly does it matter if it's lsp safe? I end up going over the car with my lsp regardless of if it has visibly degraded or not.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910C using Tapatalk


It can in winter time. your not always able to re apply outside


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## cheekymonkey

wanner69 said:


> Totally agree bud. At 1:10 in my trial my lsp was not affected. Even if it was I would just reapply my wax. End of


what lsp are you using


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## armufti

cheekymonkey said:


> It can in winter time. your not always able to re apply outside


There are other options though, in winter I've been using bead juice and/or fireball hydrophobic. Neither take long to apply, neither have dwell or cure times and both can be applied wet, meaning you need only dry the car once

Sent from my SM-N910C using Tapatalk


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## nick_mcuk

*Citrus and Snow foam no longer for me*



cheekymonkey said:


> what lsp are you using


Doesn't he say in the original post.

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## cheekymonkey

nick_mcuk said:


> Doesn't he say in the original post.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


dont know


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## nick_mcuk

cheekymonkey said:


> dont know


Might it not be an idea to read all posts before posting?

Just a thought....

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## cheekymonkey

nick_mcuk said:


> Might it not be an idea to read all posts before posting?
> 
> Just a thought....
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


read it when he first posted it
might be an idea to check your self Nick before you try to make trouble

just a thought :thumb:


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## nick_mcuk

cheekymonkey said:


> read it when he first posted it
> 
> might be an idea to check your self Nick before you try to make trouble
> 
> just a thought :thumb:


Not making trouble you asked what lsp and its mentioned in the OP's first post.

Yet 35 posts down you are asking what LSP he is using which shows you haven't read the posts.

From previous your form we all know where this thread will be heading if you start ruling you views and opinions about.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## cheekymonkey

nick_mcuk said:


> Not making trouble you asked what lsp and its mentioned in the OP's first post.
> 
> Yet 35 posts down you are asking what LSP he is using which shows you haven't read the posts.
> 
> From previous your form we all know where this thread will be heading if you start ruling you views and opinions about.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


its a forum, you are allowed to ask questions:wall:

If it was anyone else asking the question you wouldn't of posted anything, you just wanting to make trouble. Unless you have anything of use or on topic to add leave the thread.


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## bigkahunaburger

Bigpikle said:


> really? I think the OP just showed you didnt really?
> 
> All you do is waste time, money & create mess for little gain and erode your LSP.


The diluted APC (diluted for bodywork) is a prewash. I agree with you and Wayne 

In any case, you waste very little money as prewashes are cheap. Also, pressure srayed prewashes, such as a dosing of KC Green Star, cause little to no mess.


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## cheekymonkey

armufti said:


> There are other options though, in winter I've been using bead juice and/or fireball hydrophobic. Neither take long to apply, neither have dwell or cure times and both can be applied wet, meaning you need only dry the car once
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910C using Tapatalk


thats true, but what when the weather is to cold. not used any of them you mentioned, do they give the same protection as a normally applied lsp?


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## bigkahunaburger

cheekymonkey said:


> its a forum, you are allowed to ask questions:wall:
> 
> If it was anyone else asking the question you wouldn't of posted anything, you just wanting to make trouble. Unless you have anything of use or on topic to add leave the thread.


Back OT; KC Green Star looks like a highly effective, VERY reasonably priced prewash


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## armufti

cheekymonkey said:


> thats true, but what when the weather is to cold. not used any of them you mentioned, do they give the same protection as a normally applied lsp?


Not exactly the same duration but they do last a fairly long time. About 3-4 months I believe. Great beading/sheeting with a great gloss.

The only issue with fireball is cost, but the bead juice is great in this regard.

Sent from my SM-N910C using Tapatalk


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## cheekymonkey

armufti said:


> Not exactly the same duration but they do last a fairly long time. About 3-4 months I believe. Great beading/sheeting with a great gloss.
> 
> The only issue with fireball is cost, but the bead juice is great in this regard.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910C using Tapatalk


Dont mean the durability side, more what they can stand up to ie salt etc


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## wanner69

cheekymonkey said:


> what lsp are you using


A d3f1nit1ve wax development no3


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## nick_mcuk

cheekymonkey said:


> its a forum, you are allowed to ask questions:wall:
> 
> If it was anyone else asking the question you wouldn't of posted anything, you just wanting to make trouble. Unless you have anything of use or on topic to add leave the thread.


Yes you are an I never said you were not....but since you are the self proclaimed expert on everything here I would have expect you have at least read through the posts before offering up an opinion.....just saying.

And yes I would have picked up anyone on this....laziness is no excuse.

Anhooooo back on topic....wanner69 great post I am going to do the same sort of thing next weekend the 208 is hanging after the snow this week and whilst its black I will do the same test on the side,

1. Plain water 
2. Snow foam
3. Multiwash TFR diluted pre-wash
4. Mix of snowfoam and Multiwash TFR


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## President Swirl

Looks very effective mate. Stunning car by the way. How many wetting and drying cycles has it been through since the last wash? Reason I ask is that I'm up and down the motorway every day and the car gets pretty festering rather fast. Often times due to idelitus I don't wash it for a few weeks. A public flogging offence, I know. Just wondering how effective this may be on proper caked on stuff? Cheers, Ross. P.s, if you have already answered these questions in previous replies, please forgive my ignorance. I've just got in from work and I'm not yet fully awake.


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## wanner69

President Swirl said:


> Looks very effective mate. Stunning car by the way. How many wetting and drying cycles has it been through since the last wash? Reason I ask is that I'm up and down the motorway every day and the car gets pretty festering rather fast. Often times due to idelitus I don't wash it for a few weeks. A public flogging offence, I know. Just wondering how effective this may be on proper caked on stuff? Cheers, Ross. P.s, if you have already answered these questions in previous replies, please forgive my ignorance. I've just got in from work and I'm not yet fully awake.


That test I done was 2 weeks of dirt. At the moment due to bad wet weather i'm only washing the car every 2 weeks or so. Obviously I could wash more frequent but no real point as get to the end of the road and its covered in crap again.:thumb:


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## Surrey Sam

Nice results, the product does have a PH level of 12.5 though. So I'd be surprised if it doesn't diminish the LSP with time and continued use.


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## wanner69

Surrey Sam said:


> Nice results, the product does have a PH level of 12.5 though. So I'd be surprised if it doesn't diminish the LSP with time and continued use.


Yes high in Alkaline but these strengths will be reduced once you dilute it down to what you want therefore making it quite safe. Most LSP's will diminish in time naturally anyway with the elements so if it diminishes a tad quicker over time them i'm not too bothered as I can easily add a layer of wax again. More important for me through the winter months is a product that actually gets most of the dirt off before I touch the paint with my wash mitt. :thumb:


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## nick_mcuk

wanner69 said:


> Yes high in Alkaline but these strengths will be reduced once you dilute it down to what you want therefore making it quite safe. Most LSP's will diminish in time naturally anyway with the elements so if it diminishes a tad quicker over time them i'm not too bothered as I can easily add a layer of wax again. More important for me through the winter months is a product that actually gets most of the dirt off before I touch the paint with my wash mitt. :thumb:


.......And finally another person who sees it the same way as me.

An LSP is a sacrificial layer of protection that is there to protect the paint....if we use a product that removes excess soiling pre wash and if said product diminishes the LSP life by a small percentage so be it such is life and we move on (well some of us do).

I personally love waxing or applying a product so how is this a ball ache I will never understand that from members on here.....and so what if you cant do it that weekend when you notice it....its not going to kill the cars finish to wait till the next weekend!


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## Jamesrt2004

Anyone found this in 5L and I'm stock? (UK).

What sort of dilution would you lot recommend for firing through a foam lance? 

As stated by previous posts, it's not too hard to reapply lsp when it starts to degrade, means we get to do our hobby more often !


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## Cookies

I tend to agree with Nick and wanner. 

For me, snow foam allows me to remove a high percentage of dirt from the paintwork before I ever bring any mitt into contact with the paintwork. As above, if it means I have to reapply wax etc, then that's great as it's what I love doing Anyhoo. 

Cooks

Sent from my D6603


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## cheekymonkey

nick_mcuk said:


> .......And finally another person who sees it the same way as me.
> 
> An LSP is a sacrificial layer of protection that is there to protect the paint....if we use a product that removes excess soiling pre wash and if said product diminishes the LSP life by a small percentage so be it such is life and we move on (well some of us do).
> 
> I personally love waxing or applying a product so how is this a ball ache I will never understand that from members on here.....and so what if you cant do it that weekend when you notice it....its not going to kill the cars finish to wait till the next weekend!


not everyone classes it as a sacrificial layer, Some pay a lot of money for a lsp, that they believe adds to the finish whether other see it the same or not.
I'm with you on the waxing but this time of year unless you have a garage it limits when you can do it and that can be for a few weeks.


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## armufti

cheekymonkey said:


> not everyone classes it as a sacrificial layer, Some pay a lot of money for a lsp, that they believe adds to the finish whether other see it the same or not.
> I'm with you on the waxing but this time of year unless you have a garage it limits when you can do it and that can be for a few weeks.


In all honesty, a pot of BH DSW will probably last me at least a year or more if I'm waxing every week - especially if I'm using it the way I should. The same goes for most waxes - the focus is almost always on " a little goes a long way"

What's the point of spending £100's on an LSP when you're let down by the paint underneath which has been swirled and scratched because you didn't use a strong enough snow-foam / cleaner?

I'm not 100% sold on snow foams or pre-cleaners myself - I've seen amazing results for others - but it certainly can't be worse than taking a mitt to a grubby car and rubbing it in. Regardless of your LSP, this is going to be far more degrading to paint quality.

Also, I don't have a garage, but I have a local multi-storey. I've regularly gone in there and got a layer of wax on/off.


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## shine247

armufti said:


> Also, I don't have a garage, but I have a local multi-storey. I've regularly gone in there and got a layer of wax on/off.


With that wax and some others around, I have to agree, it is pretty easy give the car a covering of wax or decent qd easily enough, there is no need to be overly concerned about LSP longevity. Mine see a layer of something regularly even at this time of year.


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## Surrey Sam

I think we just need to step back and take a look at the basic chemistry here. We are not comparing apples with apples.

This Koch Chemie product has a PH of 12.5! That's 500,000 times more alkaline than a product which is PH7/neutral. Of course it's going to perform better at dealing with organic compounds. For example, sea water has a PH of around 8, ammonium around 11-12 and Bleach around PH13. Adding a slug of water to dilute the product isn't a failsafe, as it will depend on the buffering capacity (GH & KH) of your source water. 

Knowledge is power, blind faith...well that's just a recipe for disaster.


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## cheekymonkey

armufti said:


> In all honesty, a pot of BH DSW will probably last me at least a year or more if I'm waxing every week - especially if I'm using it the way I should. The same goes for most waxes - the focus is almost always on " a little goes a long way"
> 
> What's the point of spending £100's on an LSP when you're let down by the paint underneath which has been swirled and scratched because you didn't use a strong enough snow-foam / cleaner?
> 
> I'm not 100% sold on snow foams or pre-cleaners myself - I've seen amazing results for others - but it certainly can't be worse than taking a mitt to a grubby car and rubbing it in. Regardless of your LSP, this is going to be far more degrading to paint quality.
> 
> Also, I don't have a garage, but I have a local multi-storey. I've regularly gone in there and got a layer of wax on/off.


If you want to wax your car every week then that is up to you, but to think that those who use more expensive waxes have cars that are covered in scratches and swirls is just stupid. In every part of detailing the main point is Technique not product. if like most of those useing the expensive waxes the have the Technique right so dont need harsh chemicals. Waxing your car every week puts your paint at a higher risk of swirls, especially if you are driving to the multi storey to do it.The multi storey wont help when the weather is like -2


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## armufti

cheekymonkey said:


> If you want to wax your car every week then that is up to you, but to think that those who use more expensive waxes have cars that are covered in scratches and swirls is just stupid. In every part of detailing the main point is Technique not product. if like most of those useing the expensive waxes the have the Technique right so dont need harsh chemicals. Waxing your car every week puts your paint at a higher risk of swirls.
> The multi storey is a good idea but wont help when the weather is like -2


I'm starting to think you're here to have a wind up.

Nowhere in my post did I say having a more expensive lsp is more likely to have more swirls.

My emphasis was on technique and the steps taken to ensure you MINIMISE that risk.

And you've hit the nail on the head. It's up to me. Just as it is up to you not to snow foam, but to call others stupid because they are not bothered by a little lsp degradation (however tiny that really is) is not your place. It's their car. They're not imposing their methods on you. You however seem to be trying hard to impose them on others.

Technique is about using the right products and judging whether the car needs something harsh or not in that moment. If I've run the car through a load of muck and mud, I'm more likely to use harsher snowfoam to remove the gunk buildup.

If it's just light soiling, I'll pressure wash it off and inspect what is needed.

Also, those more expensive waxes are not usually used on dailies. They are use on show cars, those kept in garages and driven less than 100 miles a week. It's unlikely they'll see the same soiling a car that needs a snowfoam will .

Also, those more expensive waxes usually has better dirt repellency which means a pressure wash may well be all that is needed.

I suppose next you'll tell me pressure washes degrade the LSP.

You'll probably

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## cheekymonkey

armufti said:


> I'm starting to think you're here to have a wind up.
> 
> *Nowhere in my post did I say having a more expensive lsp is more likely to have more swirls. *
> 
> My emphasis was on technique and the steps taken to ensure you MINIMISE that risk.
> 
> And you've hit the nail on the head. It's up to me. Just as it is up to you not to snow foam, but to call others stupid because they are not bothered by a little lsp degradation (however tiny that really is) is not your place. It's their car. They're not imposing their methods on you. You however seem to be trying hard to impose them on others.
> 
> Technique is about using the right products and judging whether the car needs something harsh or not in that moment. If I've run the car through a load of muck and mud, I'm more likely to use harsher snowfoam to remove the gunk buildup.
> 
> If it's just light soiling, I'll pressure wash it off and inspect what is needed.
> 
> Also, those more expensive waxes are not usually used on dailies. They are use on show cars, those kept in garages and driven less than 100 miles a week. It's unlikely they'll see the same soiling a car that needs a snowfoam will .
> 
> Also, those more expensive waxes usually has better dirt repellency which means a pressure wash may well be all that is needed.
> 
> I suppose next you'll tell me pressure washes degrade the LSP.
> 
> You'll probably
> 
> Sent from my SM-P900 using Tapatalk


thats exactly what you said see below

*What's the point of spending £100's on an LSP when you're let down by the paint underneath which has been swirled and scratched because you didn't use a strong enough snow-foam / cleaner?[/B

have to disagree with your version of Technique, it has nothing to do with product or which product to use. you can use the best product but if your Technique is wrong you wont get the results, were as if your Technique is right you will get better results from a run of the mill product.
Again there are plenty on here who use expensive waxes on there daily cars.*


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## nick_mcuk

.....and here we go again!


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## wanner69

I use expensive waxes on my daily f type and and my previous cars and always will


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## nick_mcuk

wanner69 said:


> I use expensive waxes on my daily f type and and my previous cars and always will


I have in the past used expensive boutique branded waxes like SwissVax and Zymol on my daily drivers too....never modified my techniques or methods because of it...still pre-rinsed or foamed it with the Multiwash/Snowfoam mix...


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## wanner69

nick_mcuk said:


> I have in the past used expensive boutique branded waxes like SwissVax and Zymol on my daily drivers too....never modified my techniques or methods because of it...still pre-rinsed or foamed it with the Multiwash/Snowfoam mix...


Same here bud.


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## Brian1612

nick_mcuk said:


> .....and here we go again!


'Down the only road I've ever known!' :lol:


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## nick_mcuk

Brian1612 said:


> 'Down the only road I've ever known!' :lol:


Whitesnake rock!!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## DLGWRX02

Jamesrt2004 said:


> Anyone found this in 5L and I'm stock? (UK).
> 
> What sort of dilution would you lot recommend for firing through a foam lance?
> 
> As stated by previous posts, it's not too hard to reapply lsp when it starts to degrade, means we get to do our hobby more often !


https://www.shopnshine.co.uk/koch-chemie-green-star

They did have it in 11kg's, maybe worth dropping them a line to see when it will be available again.


----------



## Brian1612

Just an observation but looking at that Koch Chemie Green Star description, I bet you would get identical results with Bilt Hamber Surfex. At the same dilution through a pump sprayer it's likely just as safe on paintwork but your only paying £17 for 5L delivered.


----------



## Blueberry

The thing to remember here is, it's diluted down sometimes as much as 1:30. It's not going to remove your LSP in one fell swoop. It may degrade it over time, but then it does naturally anyway. In response to people saying sometimes it's too cold to apply a wax in winter. In the UK these days, winters are nothing like they use to be so it's very rare we get a prolonged period of very low temps such as 3 degrees or less (prolonged period I mean 2 weeks or more). A wax can be applied in low temps without issue.


----------



## Brian1612

Blueberry said:


> The thing to remember here is, it's diluted down sometimes as much as 1:30. It's not going to remove your LSP in one fell swoop. It may degrade it over time, but then it does naturally anyway. In response to people saying sometimes it's too cold to apply a wax in winter. In the UK these days, winters are nothing like they use to be so it's very rare we get a prolonged period of very low temps such as 3 degrees or less (prolonged period I mean 2 weeks or more). A wax can be applied in low temps without issue.


Come up north and say that


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## Blueberry

Brian1612 said:


> Come up north and say that


I am up north


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## shine247

Would someone mind going over this PH, ratio and lsp stuff again because I am really not getting it.


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## nick_mcuk

shine247 said:


> Would someone mind going over this PH, ratio and lsp stuff again because I am really not getting it.


Its ok Cheekymonkey will be along shortly I am sure....he is just busy trolling on World of Warcraft...


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## Brian1612

Blueberry said:


> I am up north


Scotland?


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## fatdazza

Blueberry said:


> I am up north





Brian1612 said:


> Scotland?


Nahhh , everyone knows Scotland is abroad :lol:


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## cheekymonkey

Blueberry said:


> The thing to remember here is, it's diluted down sometimes as much as 1:30. It's not going to remove your LSP in one fell swoop. It may degrade it over time, but then it does naturally anyway. In response to people saying sometimes it's too cold to apply a wax in winter. In the UK these days, winters are nothing like they use to be so it's very rare we get a prolonged period of very low temps such as 3 degrees or less (prolonged period I mean 2 weeks or more). A wax can be applied in low temps without issue.


its not just the effect these harsher products have on lsp, There is also what effect they have in other ways, or what they use to help hide what it does. 
Does anyone actually look at the data sheets. People can spend hours reading up on these products yet never bother with the one paper that will tell them more about a product then any test or review.
One mentioned on this thread contains products that are toxic another contains a product that is naturally hydrophobic, but offers no protection. Another highly regarded on here is caustic. yes you can replace the lsp other effects of such products its not that simple. 
I do love to wax but at low temps it can turn in to a chore


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## nick_mcuk

But just reading the individual ingredients off an MSDS doesn't mean you are fully understanding the chemical compounds.

Now if you are chemist fair enough but mixing 2 products together can reduce or even negate any harmful effects...percentages of dilution in the mix, and final usage dilutions also play a massive part in this.

So whilst you may read all the MSDS's and think you understand them unless you have a masters in chemistry you are again showing your complete lack of taking the bigger picture it accounts and are cherry picking individual components.

Do you use traditional soap in your house, or cosmetic products.....they all have some pretty nasty chemicals in them....yet we use them and our skin isn't falling off.

You said that AutoGlym Multiwash TFR is evil nasty stuff...I have been using it since it was called Powermax 2 which is many many years ago...i have used it weekly in the dilutions (and sometimes stronger) recommended by AutoGlym on all our cars for many years and guess what NONE of them have had the paint fall off nor have there been any damage.


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## Dr_T

Blueberry said:


> I am up north


hardly :lol:


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## Blueberry

Dr_T said:


> hardly :lol:


Far enough north but not Scotland


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## cheekymonkey

nick_mcuk said:


> But just reading the individual ingredients off an MSDS doesn't mean you are fully understanding the chemical compounds.
> 
> Now if you are chemist fair enough but mixing 2 products together can reduce or even negate any harmful effects...percentages of dilution in the mix, and final usage dilutions also play a massive part in this.
> 
> So whilst you may read all the MSDS's and think you understand them unless you have a masters in chemistry you are again showing your complete lack of taking the bigger picture it accounts and are cherry picking individual components.
> 
> Do you use traditional soap in your house, or cosmetic products.....they all have some pretty nasty chemicals in them....yet we use them and our skin isn't falling off.
> 
> You said that AutoGlym Multiwash TFR is evil nasty stuff...I have been using it since it was called Powermax 2 which is many many years ago...i have used it weekly in the dilutions (and sometimes stronger) recommended by AutoGlym on all our cars for many years and guess what NONE of them have had the paint fall off nor have there been any damage.


yes Nick i understand data sheets and you dont have to have a masters in chemistry to understand them. 
dont use traditional soap or normal cosmetic products again there are safer alternatives.
I dont recall calling multiwash evil,as i recall i called it harsher, and as i have stated before if you are happy using them then that is up to you,and your right the paint wont fall off, but i dont recall anyone stating that. but what about the other aspects concerning the use of harsh products, health and environment to name 2. these harsher products have an impact on them. As i stated 1 product spoken about contains toxic ingredients another is caustic. they cause damage but not the sort of damage you see on a car. doesnt matter how well your car is protected or how many time you re apply it wont stop that damage, the only way to stop that damage is use less harsh products.


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## shine247

cheekymonkey said:


> dont use traditional soap or normal cosmetic products again there are safer alternatives.


Now that is interesting, what do you use? Does it get the Golden Bunny Award?


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## nick_mcuk

shine247 said:


> Now that is interesting, what do you use? Does it get the Golden Bunny Award?


Probably doesnt wash or if he does its in Goats milk??  

...interesting comments though, clearly cares about the environment, so i wonder if he has checked out the hazardours materials that are used in the manufacture of the electrical goods he has in his home....and uses to connect to the 'tinterweb?  

Using a less "harsh product"...ok so lets break that down and have a look at the components in this statement.



cheekymonkey said:


> ....but what about the other aspects concerning the use of harsh products, health and environment to name 2. These harsher products have an impact on them


So by using a "harsher product" to quote you I can spray on a small amount leave for a couple of minutes and rinse off the large majority of the crud and debris using a lot less water than if i have a weak fluffy product that will require more time and water to be used. Moreover the already diluted product will be even further diluted down when rinsed off the vehicle. Now if I am using less water thats a far more ecological reason to...and I quote using your term "harsher product".



cheekymonkey said:


> As i stated 1 product spoken about contains toxic ingredients another is caustic. they cause damage but not the sort of damage you see on a car. doesnt matter how well your car is protected or how many time you re apply it wont stop that damage, the only way to stop that damage is use less harsh products.


Again you may well have read the MSDS and have cherry picked a couple of ingredients off the list but in reality you are just showing your complete lack of "expertise" and understanding of chemical compounds, dilution ratios and the results of combining compounds that negates negative and harmful effects...just for you I went out to the garage and took some photos...

So you say that AutoGlym MultiWash is caustic and toxic....now this is the label on the 25L drum....I don't think AutoGlym being a multi million £ company that have been round since 1965 are going to scrimp and not put health warnings on the labels if products are toxic or nasty...they certainly wouldn't have survived in this now litigious society if their products were miss labeled.

Exhibit A - Label from 25L drum of Multiwash TFR:


Not seeing any warnings or symbols on there.....nor in the text so as far as a H&S and environmental point of view they seem to deem it not being a threat....yet you and your armchair chemistry expertise seems to...

Exhibit B - Label from 5L bottle of AutoGlym Acid Wheel Cleaner:



Oh look there is a hazard symbol on it and rightly so...Not seeing any of that on the MutliWash TFR are we??...Why because the chemists at AutoGlym clearly have a better understanding of the chemical composition of the product than you do with your "cherry picking" of individual components off and MSDS.


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## robsteele55

Never mind all the waffle, does green star actually smell of anything? And what colour is it? Not sure if the bottle I have just received has been tampered with, thanks


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## wanner69

robsteele55 said:


> Never mind all the waffle, does green star actually smell of anything? And what colour is it? Not sure if the bottle I have just received has been tampered with, thanks
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


It's green in colour and doesn't really smell of anything tbh


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## robsteele55

Superb thanks, it is green and doesn't smell of much, thanks for the reply.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## wanner69

robsteele55 said:


> Superb thanks, it is green and doesn't smell of much, thanks for the reply.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Ooops incorrect, just making a solution up now at 1:10 at its a very pale green almost clear.


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## robsteele55

Yeh I've just had a little in a clear container and it is pale green, 1:10 the best dilution?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## wanner69

robsteele55 said:


> Yeh I've just had a little in a clear container and it is pale green, 1:10 the best dilution?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You can go stronger for more effective cleaning power but I'm finding 1:10 on my white heavily soiled car is perfect


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## robsteele55

Superb cheers


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## wanner69

Just trying to upload a video


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## wanner69




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## nick_mcuk

That is bloody impressive...what pressure washer are you using out of interest?


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## wanner69

nick_mcuk said:


> That is bloody impressive...what pressure washer are you using out of interest?


Nilfisk buddy 120 bar I think


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## nick_mcuk

Cool whats the flow rate on that....looks pretty high!!


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## wanner69

nick_mcuk said:


> Cool whats the flow rate on that....looks pretty high!!


Just looked, max 7.3L per minute


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## nick_mcuk

That looks soo much more powerful than my Karcher K4 Premium Ecologic yet its flow rate is only like 10 more L/Per hour. Toying with Kranzle K1152 TST see


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## wanner69

That's cleaner


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## nick_mcuk

Good work sir....Its too cold down here to wash the cars...so they are minging dirty.


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## wanner69

nick_mcuk said:


> Good work sir....Its too cold down here to wash the cars...so they are minging dirty.


Yes weather has been crap, no doubt tomorrow mine will be caked again


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## Nidge76

Thanks for the video. Great car by the way. 

I am new to all this detailing lark and I can see there are differing opinions on products but in terms of getting the car as clean as possible before touching the car this looks a great product. Definitely on my list to try. Thanks.


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## nick_mcuk

Nidge76 said:


> Thanks for the video. Great car by the way.
> 
> I am new to all this detailing lark and I can see there are differing opinions on products but in terms of getting the car as clean as possible before touching the car this looks a great product. Definitely on my list to try. Thanks.


BOOOM! and there it is....well done Nidge!  :wave::driver:


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## Blueberry

Looks fabulous and Green Star proving how good it is


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## Dr_T

have to say this stuff is awesome on a dirty car but I'll still use my snow foam during the summer. However, its not so kind to quik wax/BSD.

Thanks to wanner69 for pointing it out :thumb:


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## Bizcam

Missed a bit..! Car looking good Wayne.


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## Gaznlecky

Well you have convinced me wanner69, my Green star arrived today. The cars are minging roll on the weekend. &#55357;&#56846;


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## wanner69

Gaznlecky said:


> Well you have convinced me wanner69, my Green star arrived today. The cars are minging roll on the weekend. ��


Nice one buddy. Let me know your thoughts


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## Gaznlecky

Will do:thumb:


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## Rob D 88

After reading this I ordered a bottle, I do like a strong spray on from a bottle! Snow Foam is great but against the winter dirt it is not the most powerful cleaner! 
I ordered it tonight so it should be here before Saturday, hopefully I will get a chance to do my car as it's been about 2 months since I did it! I fell out of love as I ordered my new car which is delivered in March. 

Hopefully it makes my life easier, I will go in strong maybe 1:5 as it is filthy and doesn't have any LSP left anyway!


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## cheekymonkey

shine247 said:


> Now that is interesting, what do you use? Does it get the Golden Bunny Award?


All i can tell you is it contains no waxes, andit won a rampant rabbit a while ago but thats it mate :thumb:


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## cheekymonkey

nick_mcuk said:


> Probably doesnt wash or if he does its in Goats milk??
> 
> So by using a "harsher product" to quote you I can spray on a small amount leave for a couple of minutes and rinse off the large majority of the crud and debris using a lot less water than if i have a weak fluffy product that will require more time and water to be used. Moreover the already diluted product will be even further diluted down when rinsed off the vehicle. Now if I am using less water thats a far more ecological reason to...and I quote using your term "harsher product".
> 
> *yet you have already stated before you fill 1/4 to 1/2 of you snowfoamer with the tfr then add 100-150 ml of snow foam and top it with water. That is way higher dilutions then many ph neutral snow foam needs and they clean very well. Infact some clean just as well as what you are using if not better imo. never found the need to over rinse with them ether. Snow foams have come on alot over resent years. Infact there are alot of ph neutral ones that are just as good as the harsher products *
> 
> So you say that AutoGlym MultiWash is caustic and toxic....now this is the label on the 25L drum....I don't think AutoGlym being a multi million £ company that have been round since 1965 are going to scrimp and not put health warnings on the labels if products are toxic or nasty...they certainly wouldn't have survived in this now litigious society if their products were miss labeled.
> 
> Exhibit A - Label from 25L drum of Multiwash TFR:
> 
> 
> Not seeing any warnings or symbols on there.....nor in the text so as far as a H&S and environmental point of view they seem to deem it not being a threat....yet you and your armchair chemistry expertise seems to...
> 
> *
> Read back what i said and you will see i never said multiwash was castic and toxic. Infact i never mentioned which products i was talking about.
> just because a product doesnt have a warning symbol does not mean it is safe or harmless. All it means is it meets certain guide lines.infact it clearly states it has an impact on the environment on the label.
> some of the text that does interest me is the part about it being used as a co polymer remover and at 6% through a cold washer it is used to clean engines.
> One thing to remember about a data sheet is, it is not all to do with what you can read, it is just as important what is not there to read. The same goes for the labeling.
> *


----------



## Berylburton

nick_mcuk said:


> .......And finally another person who sees it the same way as me.
> 
> An LSP is a sacrificial layer of protection that is there to protect the paint....if we use a product that removes excess soiling pre wash and if said product diminishes the LSP life by a small percentage so be it such is life and we move on (well some of us do).
> 
> I personally love waxing or applying a product so how is this a ball ache I will never understand that from members on here.....and so what if you cant do it that weekend when you notice it....its not going to kill the cars finish to wait till the next weekend!


Heretic!


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## nick_mcuk

Berylburton said:


> Heretic!


Just keeping it real...there really has been a recent shift and people seem to think their cars are as fragile as a new born baby!


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## dave-g

nick_mcuk said:


> Just keeping it real...there really has been a recent shift and people seem to think their cars are as fragile as a new born baby!


Mine is, judging by the other halfs driving :lol:


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## cheekymonkey

nick_mcuk said:


> Just keeping it real...there really has been a recent shift and people seem to think their cars are as fragile as a new born baby!


but the lsp is :lol:


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## Berylburton

cheekymonkey said:


> but the lsp is :lol:


Put some more on then?


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## nick_mcuk

Berylburton said:


> Put some more on then?


BOOOOOM!!! thats what I am talking about!


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## robsteele55

Used green star for the first time today, amazing stuff, beats my TFR hands down.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## wanner69

robsteele55 said:


> Used green star for the first time today, amazing stuff, beats my TFR hands down.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Glad you like it


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## robsteele55

It is good stuff, thanks for your review.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Rob D 88

robsteele55 said:


> Used green star for the first time today, amazing stuff, beats my TFR hands down.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


My bottle came today, I will be using it tomorrow on my car which I have badly neglected. I think it has been about 3 months so you can imagine what it looks like.

I hope it's as good as you guys say! :lol:


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## cheekymonkey

Berylburton said:


> Put some more on then?


:lol::lol:

dont start that again


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## X-Type_Bobstar

Just had a good read of this and tempted to pick up some Green Star universal cleaner and test it out on my XF. I have used a number of different snow foams and some that claim to be really thick and clingy and some which say you need 1-2cm of a bottle + water and all they do is produce a wazzy watery mess which is very ineffective. 

Found Ultimate Finsh snow foam to be pretty good and was pretty pleased with Codeclean Decontaminate snowfoam. Others not quite so impressed.


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## Stokie

X-Type_Bobstar said:


> Just had a good read of this and tempted to pick up some Green Star universal cleaner and test it out on my XF. I have used a number of different snow foams and some that claim to be really thick and clingy and some which say you need 1-2cm of a bottle + water and all they do is produce a wazzy watery mess which is very ineffective.
> 
> Found Ultimate Finsh snow foam to be pretty good and was pretty pleased with Codeclean Decontaminate snowfoam. Others not quite so impressed.


Do it, you won't be disappointed at all. I was very impressed with the results and will definitely be buying more.


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## Blueberry

It's really good. I used it at 1:15 on my white paintwork yesterday. Car hadn't been washed in nearly 2 months and this removed the dirt with absolute ease. Not seen anything clean like this before.


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## wanner69

Blueberry said:


> It's really good. I used it at 1:15 on my white paintwork yesterday. Car hadn't been washed in nearly 2 months and this removed the dirt with absolute ease. Not seen anything clean like this before.


Glad you're impressed Kerry:thumb:


----------



## Naith

Wouldn't something like BH Surfex HD give similar results..?


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## bigkahunaburger

Naith said:


> Wouldn't something like BH Surfex HD give similar results..?


It may well do. I wouldn't know where to start on the dilution ratio though.


----------



## Deje

Green star is sold as APC in Germany, Surfex Hd is at least as potent imo.


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## DLGWRX02

Well, finally jumped on the wagon and got the large container of it from elite car care. Had a few other bits I wanted to try.


----------



## steve_07

Naith said:


> Wouldn't something like BH Surfex HD give similar results..?


My thoughts exactly. Sounds like more of an APC.


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## GleemSpray

Surfex is formulated to tackle oily/greasy dirt, whereas Autofoam is formulated more towards drier "normal" road dirt. 

Surfex is great as a pre-wash in winter. 

Sent from my HTC 10 using Tapatalk


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## Naith

Mmm, interesting. Thing is I've just bought a 2L Venus foam hand sprayer with the idea of using BH Auto Foam. But maybe I'll also get a 5L sprayer to use with something like Koch Chemie or Surfex HD. It could work out cheaper and more effective...


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## wanner69

Glad to see GS is getting back in stock now


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## wyliss

I’ve just bought 10L of this. 
If I use it through a pump sprayer at say 5% will that be ok for wheel arches whilst doing a general wash? I’m concerned about stripping lubricating paste on the backs of brake pads. 
Ps Which decent pump sprayers are we using? 
Thanks


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## tosh

Naith said:


> Mmm, interesting. Thing is I've just bought a 2L Venus foam hand sprayer with the idea of using BH Auto Foam. But maybe I'll also get a 5L sprayer to use with something like Koch Chemie or Surfex HD. It could work out cheaper and more effective...


The only way to know is to try it; everyone's car is different and has different protection on it. If you've protected your car and wheels the different chemicals will release dirt differently.

Personally, I use all my chemicals around 5% through either a pump sprayer, hand held foamer or foam lance; I have a 10% spray bottle of KC GS for neglected wheels and tyres.

5% auto foam in the lance (hits the car at 5%)
5% green star in the venus (with a bit of KC Gsf)
10% green star in a sprayer

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## Itstony

I have replied to many threads and feel I am getting boring.
For me Koch Chemie is one of the best kept secrets.

Their gear is good. I often wonder why they are not so popular and was told that they do not push products as hard as they could, because their market is massive in Germany. 
Reading who endorses KC is there for all to read.
I am finding that each one I trial is decent and works, so my collection is gradually becoming more KC than others. Cost is never my first factor, quality is. KC so far has both as much is concentrated.
IMHO there is always a lot of people taken in by fashionable products and glitzy names and fancy bottles, but that I do understand.
I buy just about all my gear from Slims detailing and I think they are the main or one of the biggest agents. want anything, get a price from them and its always very competitive.
Another great plus, I refuse on principle to pay shipping costs that are a rip-off and another sellers profit margin. Slims shipping costs are blinding, so I load up and get one, two or three boxes, well packed, tracking etc. and the cost will convert you as it did me.
And no, I do not work for them. Don't believe me, call and find out yourselves! :thumb:


----------



## ganwilliams

wanner69 said:


> I've been speaking with Koch chemie and they said anything above 1:6 should be lsp safe. Bare in mind though many waxes and sealants vary. I'll be trying 1:15 next also


Good to know. Thanks


----------



## Fireball411

it seams to put a layer of coating over my car

it has fusso on it and after my usual pre wash (bilt hamber auto foam) the water behaviour of fusso apears,but after i use green star its like there inst anything on it and it just hangs there,like I've used fairy liquid,no run off at all

am i using it to strong i put 300ml in 5 ltrs?


----------



## Itstony

Fireball411 said:


> it seams to put a layer of coating over my car
> 
> it has fusso on it and after my usual pre wash (bilt hamber auto foam) the water behaviour of fusso apears,but after i use green star its like there inst anything on it and it just hangs there,like I've used fairy liquid,no run off at all
> 
> am i using it to strong i put 300ml in 5 ltrs?


If you read through this topic, all your concerns are answered already:thumb:


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## Fireball411

Itstony said:


> If you read through this topic, all your concerns are answered already:thumb:


ill set some time aside later,at work so have only a little time to browse

thanks:thumb:


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## Fireball411

Itstony said:


> If you read through this topic, all your concerns are answered already:thumb:


Having read through the full posts all I can see is people arguing about if it will degrade the lsp

I'm not saying it is degrading it,it's like it's putting a coating over it and changing the water behaviour,if I then use bilt hamber after, it cleans it off and the fusso behaviour returns?


----------



## wyliss

As CK says anything above 1:6 should be lsp safe.


----------



## Fireball411

As i say it not degrading the fusso but putting what looks like a coating over it,once washed again with another pre wash the water behaviour of fusso returns not showing any signs degradation


----------

