# What's in leather products?



## WaxOnWaxOff

Since this thread got closed:
http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=241336&page=4

..I can't post my question on there. Now I like the sound of Dr Leather. I like LTT. I've seen good results from users of all of them. But which one's best? There's only one way to find out. FIIIIIIIIIIII-oh wait. Some questions.

What I would like to know from manufacturers of leather cleaners and conditioners/protectors/whatever is this:

1) What's actually, really, properly in your product?
2) Why are those ingredients good for my leather?
3) What research exists to back that up? ("thousands of happy customers" doesn't count)
4) Why is the approach taken by your product better than other approaches?

And following on from the above, on a personal note, what makes your product the most suitable for my Audi's black Nappa leather?

Thanks :thumb:

An index to answers received:
*Dr Leather*
http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showpost.php?p=3166344&postcount=16

*LTT*
http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showpost.php?p=3166975&postcount=24


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## DMH-01

Isn't this just going to be round 2?


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## WaxOnWaxOff

Not if they just stick to answering the questions and providing information that consumers need to make informed choices rather than the usual "our product's best" marketing that they all do. Marketing claims are one thing; science is another.


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## tzotzo

dude just go for the leatherique.


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## Miglior

i don't see why the manufacturers would spill about specific ingredients. why do they need to? If you have used it and liked it why with the questions?

use your favourite and stick with it! 

I know i wouldnt "show my cards" when it comes to why I'm better than the competition etc for the sake of one sale.

all your probably going to get is a sales pitch, why would they divulge important and sensitive information?


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## Miglior

WaxOnWaxOff said:


> Not if they just stick to answering the questions and providing information that consumers need to make informed choices rather than the usual "our product's best" marketing that they all do. Marketing claims are one thing; science is another.


again to show the Science in too much detail to satisfy a person like yourself is probably akin to commercial suicide.

"you pays your money and you take your chances"
its more about finding a product that you like and that works best for you that suits your budget


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## VIPER

DMH-01 said:


> Isn't this just going to be round 2?


Not if I see it going that way it won't no!


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## WaxOnWaxOff

Manufacturers like Zymol detail their ingredients, discuss their supposed benefits and even list percentages in the ingredients list (and not just the Carnauba). I'm not asking for a recipe. I'm asking for the products to be justified in a reasonable fashion so that I and other potential users can make an INFORMED choice. You are in favour of INFORMED choices, aren't you?

Last time I checked Zymol were still in business, having NOT committed commercial suicide. Same for tyre manufacturers who show deconstructions of their latest tyre internals and tread patterns. All doing very nicely it would seem.

If you think discussing your product in an open forum is for the sake of _one _sale I think you've somewhat missed the potential benefits of an open forum 

Now instead of prejudicing the responses _before they've even been given_, why don't you lot just sit back and see what the manufacturers of the products you buy, or may buy, actually come up with? :thumb:


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## EVL

I'm no scientist, nor do I pretend to be one. However, I am an upholster and have been working on cars for a number of years - our company was set up in 1971. All I'm doing here is giving an opinion - I'm not choosing one side over another.
We do a lot of repairs on leather interiors on classics through to modern cars. Most common theme on leather that appears to be dried and cracked from customers is that the leather has always just been cleaned with no protectant or conditioner used. Obviously customers use different cleaning materials so these probably have an affect on the condition.
However, the best interiors that I have come across are in cars whose owners regularly use some form of balm/conditioner or protectant.
For my own peace of mind now, all my cars (with leather interiors) will always get some form of conditioner or balm used. The leather might not need it (as some say) or might need cleaning more often, but I'd rather do that than end up having to retrim.


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## HalfordsShopper

I hope it does turn into round 2 of the other thread. Its a real shame it was closed. I for one would really welcome a constructive debate between the main manufactures of leather care products. The thread was closed just as we seemed to be getting nearer to the truth. Maybe the powers that be at DW don't want us to know the truth?


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## Envy Car Care

Cue Jack Nicholson..."You want the truth? You CAN'T handle the truth"


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## Envy Car Care

Regarding the OP, I dont think you will get the info on exactly whats in people's products but may well get the info on why their products work, dont work, the science and thinking behind formulations etc.
You wont get Coca-Cola to tell you whats in Coke, nor KFC, Zymol, Swissvax etc.


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## WaxOnWaxOff

Even that kind of info would be a better start than some marketing twaddle though eh?  

You haven't read the "ingredients" bit on coke, have you? :lol: From it you can make an informed decision about whether it'll do, say, YOU, any good. You can learn that it's got epic amounts of sugar, phosphoric acid to knacker your teeth, caffeine and so-on. The amount of each essential oil in the flavouring is irrelevant. Zymol will tell you that their formula is, say, 47% yellow and white carnauba by volume, contains, Propolis, Glycerl Stearate and so on. No-one's asking for ratios in the formulae of leather products here though. 

A tyre has steel bands in it, the manufacturer will tell you why. They may be using a new weave of polymers or an additive that has effect X on the tyre. They'll tell you why. Suitable IP protection of any genuine innovations protects the recipe or process by which it is made. We're talking about leather products here. 

Manufacturers, over to you. The original questions stand.


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## HalfordsShopper

It looks like they are too scared. Maybe secretly they all know that their products are rubbish, just made from washing up liquid and water. haha. Sorry Judy and Daryl just horsin' i think both of your products are ace.


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## Spirit Detailing

WaxOnWaxOff said:


> Since this thread got closed:
> http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=241336&page=4
> 
> ..I can't post my question on there. Now I like the sound of Dr Leather. I like LTT. I've seen good results from users of all of them. But which one's best? There's only one way to find out. FIIIIIIIIIIII-oh wait. Some questions.
> 
> What I would like to know from manufacturers of leather cleaners and conditioners/protectors/whatever is this:
> 
> 1) What's actually, really, properly in your product?
> 2) Why are those ingredients good for my leather?
> 3) What research exists to back that up? ("thousands of happy customers" doesn't count)
> 4) Why is the approach taken by your product better than other approaches?
> 
> And following on from the above, what makes your product the most suitable for my Audi's black Nappa leather?
> 
> Thanks :thumb:


Audi -> Wollsdorf Leather (more than likely)

Link to recommended care technique : http://www.wollsdorf-leder.com/eng/service/WL_Lederpflege_e.pdf

1) What's actually, really, properly in your product? 
2) Why are those ingredients good for my leather?
3) What research exists to back that up? ("thousands of happy customers" doesn't count)
4) Why is the approach taken by your product better than other approaches?

That's like questioning a politician before an election. They will only tell you what you want to hear and then rarely live up to the promises.

My recommendations are for you to mainly clean the leather. Vacuum and wipe regularly.

Using seat-protection depends on your use of the car. If you have a family car, definitely use a protector as a sacrificial barrier. It will need to be topped up periodically.

If its just you driving your car to work, then simply put protector on the drivers seat but still do a maintenance clean on the whole car on a regular basis. If its your Bugatti Veyron or Koenigsegg, then just keep it clean, you lucky bugger! 

Conditioners are not necessary. Just because they exist, it doesn't mean you need to use it on your leather at the drop of a hat. If any of the makers were honest enough to answer your questions in full, it would be reeeaaallly good. I'd love to hear about it.

However, a lot of them out-source the actual manufacturing to a chemicals company who provide them with a formula of ingredients which may or may not be useful to leather. And how are we to know if the actual percentage of useful active ingredients within it is any use at all? Could be just a teaspoon per barrel!

In my opinion, there are no leather conditioners - only people conditioners!!  What people want for their leather is a scent and a placebo softening effect. Thats all they get most of the time. They are conditioned into thinking that leather needs a remedy for a problem that does not exist.

That might upset people who sell conditioners, but telling you that fast-food is bad for you would upset McDonalds. As I always say, there are four sides to every story so take what you want from the information provided.

Now I will put on the popcorn and watch this progress.... :lol:


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## Dr Leather

In truth I've been pondering whether to reply or not - certainly I am not scared in anyway. Let's be honest though, forums are a hotbed of keyboard warriors/experts and no matter what is written there'll be someone that comes along and will try to pick holes in things. Over the last year since becoming a sponsor I've received a lot of very abusive e-mails from forum members saying that I don't know anything, that I provide no help to the forum, etc, etc. I don't mind that aspect too much, but then when I challenge them to qualify their statements or to discuss things they go quiet. So it's always going to be a case on DW that I'm damned if I do, and damned if I don't. At the end of the day I am trained in Leather Technology, I've made some of the most advanced leathers in the world for very high tech sectors such as the military, and I have written a number of granted patents on new leather technologies. Unlike most on here, I have made leather for over 2 decades, and as such I know every aspect from raw material to finished product with regards to chemistry level down to the triple helix molecule of collagen. So with this knowledge, I'll answer the questions as best I can, without divulging too much about our product:

1) What's actually, really, properly in your product? _Firstly we use a product that will actually loosen the material soiling the surface; generally this will be something that can shift both lipophilic/lipophobic and hydrophilic/hydrophobic compounds and we ensure we use a safe and biodegradable compound. Second we include a humectant type product to help ensure the wetting of the surface of the finish on the leather. We also include our specific leather fragrance, which I personally spent a long time searching out in trying to get something that smelt like a traditional veg tanned leather. We put in a preservative to stop it from going off. And then we put in a couple of other little things that I will not reveal. We tame down the foaming of the product as a lot of cleaning companies like the foam as it looks as though you are getting more bang for your buck, although there are very little scientific studies highlighting that it does any better at cleaning, and for the few there are, there are a few that counter the argument. In leather making we are averse to foam generation for the most part, and so I guess my instincts tell me not to deviate from this thinking. Finally I should note that our product leaves a matt surface effect, and does not contain any silicone or oil based chemistry. It is also water based._

2) Why are those ingredients good for my leather? _The ingredients are very effective at removing soil and contaminants lodged and ground in to the surface of the finish on the leather. What we have seen is that sometimes you see a little bit of a milky residue occur on the first clean as the solution tears up any oily/conditioner type products that may still be left on the surface of the finish and have consequently been rubbed into the finish under bodyweight._

3) What research exists to back that up? ("thousands of happy customers" doesn't count) _All I can say is that I know not only what is used to finish the leathers on various products, including automotive leathers, but also how those various chemicals create a symbiotic surface film on to the leather. One needs to be very careful not to chemically damage the finish, nor clog it up, as either case will cause microscopic damage to the coating and then it can lead to further issues. I have said countless times that modern day finish top coats are highly crosslinked with isocyanate based chemistry and once the film is cured there is virtually nothing that will go through it from either direction, except fairly harsh solvents. I will do an experiment for you all later this week that shows aspects of the so called breathability, etc on automotive leathers. I'm not sure you will really understand it, but hey I'll try for those of you that are willing to learn. So to recap the products I select in our cleaning products are specifically designed to release any contamination and dirt, whilst ensuring the integrity of the topcoat is not damaged in any way. This has been tested through multiple applications of the cleaner on the most common type of topcoats, and then the leathers are retested for flex testing, abrasion, adhesion, etc properties to ensure values remain unaffected._

4) Why is the approach taken by your product better than other approaches? _From where I stand as a technical based tanner and knowing how modern day leather is made, there are two enemies to maintaining leather in vehicles. The first is to ensure that the surface top coat remains as clean as possible and free from microscopic dirt and crud that can be ground in to the surface top coat film and start to cause damage over time. Cleanliness is next to Godliness. 
The second enemy is moisture content. Again I stress that there are two types of water in leather - bound and unbound. The bound water contributes from 0.01 - 10% moisture content in the leather, and if you start getting in to this territory then the leather can struggle a bit. Anything over 10% is unbound moisture and its value can go up and down depending on the environment in which it is used. Typically 16% moisture content is good. Too high and you can create an artificial fatliquoring effect where the leather can elongate and sag. Automotive leathers are made with humectants and non-water resistant properties so that they can grab some moisture from the atmosphere. _

OK so I'll finish there and no doubt will have a few e-mails in the morning once again trying to tell me that I know nothing, etc, etc. At the end of the day I am trying to help in providing a modern day product for modern day leathers. If I were out to profiteer I would market conditioners, and other products that I know do not really do too much, but I don't as I am also a consumer and I want good product. I have tested the majority of products countless times on leathers and tried many in my cars only to become completely bemused and fed up with the fact that they do not really do anything. And that was what made me decide that I would create a product that was good in my eyes.

Let the abuse commence!!!!!!

Rgds,

Darryl


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## Envy Car Care

Thanks very much for the replies and discussion Darryl and Brian.
I for one judge the products I use in my work on how good they are at what they are supposed to do, how well they work, whether my skin falls off after use, and lastly, on cost.


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## JakeWhite

Sorry to be so naive but why are people getting so hung up on leather care? Surely it's a simple case of: If you don't believe leather conditioners don't work and have no positive effect on your leather, don't buy them. If you personally feel that they have a positive effect and they do help then buy them. This is no way a dig at the OP as they just want some information, which is what this forum was primarily made for but I don't see people getting hung up on fancy waxes, expensive shampoos and costly wheel cleaners so why leather so much?


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## johandc

Dr Leather said:


> 4) Why is the approach taken by your product better than other approaches? _From where I stand as a technical based tanner and knowing how modern day leather is made, there are two enemies to maintaining leather in vehicles. The first is to ensure that the surface top coat remains as clean as possible and free from microscopic dirt and crud that can be ground in to the surface top coat film and start to cause damage over time. Cleanliness is next to Godliness.
> The second enemy is moisture content. Again I stress that there are two types of water in leather - bound and unbound. The bound water contributes from 0.01 - 10% moisture content in the leather, and if you start getting in to this territory then the leather can struggle a bit. Anything over 10% is unbound moisture and its value can go up and down depending on the environment in which it is used. Typically 16% moisture content is good. Too high and you can create an artificial fatliquoring effect where the leather can elongate and sag. Automotive leathers are made with humectants and non-water resistant properties so that they can grab some moisture from the atmosphere.
> _


_

Just a quick question: If this top coat is completely impermeable, how can the leather "grab moisture from the atmosphere" and what can a product do to increase/decrease the moisture content at all?_


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## Spirit Detailing

JakeWhite said:


> Sorry to be so naive but why are people getting so hung up on leather care? Surely it's a simple case of: If you don't believe leather conditioners don't work and have no positive effect on your leather, don't buy them. If you personally feel that they have a positive effect and they do help then buy them. This is no way a dig at the OP as they just want some information, which is what this forum was primarily made for but I don't see people getting hung up on fancy waxes, expensive shampoos and costly wheel cleaners so why leather so much?


LOL they sure do get caught up on fancy waxes, expensive shampoos and so on. I've been unlucky enough to tackle that debate head on in another forum. I don't like Carnauba waxes and haven't used one in my workshop for a long time - and even back then it was only as a topper over a synthetic. Carnauba offers very little protection and the shine & gloss has been equalled in a lot of synthetics. That's a different section and a different argument, but if you glance back in the DW files, there is a lot of differences and preferences debated with heat!


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## Dr Leather

johandc said:


> Just a quick question: If this top coat is completely impermeable, how can the leather "grab moisture from the atmosphere" and what can a product do to increase/decrease the moisture content at all?


Yes it's a real issue as the foams are glued to the leather, etc. Some vapour form moisture can get through but not easily. Perforated leather is easier as the cross-section of the leather is exposed. It's a tricky one though, and a lot of it is controlled through the retanning products.


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## JakeWhite

Spirit Detailing said:


> LOL they sure do get caught up on fancy waxes, expensive shampoos and so on. I've been unlucky enough to tackle that debate head on in another forum. I don't like Carnauba waxes and haven't used one in my workshop for a long time - and even back then it was only as a topper over a synthetic. Carnauba offers very little protection and the shine & gloss has been equalled in a lot of synthetics. That's a different section and a different argument, but if you glance back in the DW files, there is a lot of differences and preferences debated with heat!


Sorry dude I didn't realise I was just saying I haven't really seen it in my time. Not to the extent of the leather debates anyway


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## WaxOnWaxOff

Thanks to Dr Leather and Spirited Detailing for some frank information. I look forward to Dr Leather's experiment and appreciate a company that's willing to explain to its customers. Really interesting stuff. Hopefully some more manufacturers can provide their answers too.

Jake, the leather debates is precisely the purpose of this thread in that I got tired of the different approaches and conflicting info. You made an interesting point when you said "if [people] don't believe...". A lot of product choice can be based on belief - your own of that of others - and based on very little actual info. This thread can potentially give those who want it some _real _information, rather than just marketing or product evangelism which doesn't really leave anyone any the wiser as to what they could use or why.


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## judyb

Like Dr Leather I too have taken time to decide whether to reply to this thread. I was sorry to hear that he had received emails from forum members disputing his knowledge - it really is sad that people have to stoop to this level. Whilst I have never received any emails I have over time taken a lot of stick in direct response to some of my posts and did not want to get involved in another battle.

1) What's actually, really, properly in your product?
You are unlikely to get a full response to this question from anyone as most suppliers will not be prepared to give this kind of information if they even know it. 
Our cleaning and protection products are all water based and we use the cleaning product as a foam for several reasons:
a) Better cleaning can be achieved by a foam as the product can be given dwell time
b) Foam is an active product and releases the dirt from the leather holding it in the foam so that it can be effectively removed from the leather 
c) Foaming products do not cause streaking effects on the leather which is something that we have seen often with liquid products - sometimes to the point where the leather has to be recoloured because the streaks cannot be removed
d) Foaming the product makes the product go further
Our products do not contain oils or silicones and will leave the leather as the leather should be (ie as the factory finish - normally matt in auto leather)
Our cleaning products are specifically formulated for auto leather and we produce a stronger cleaner for problems such as dye transfer and heavily ingrained dirt as these are problems that can require a stronger product. Dye transfer and stains are not always 'cleaning' problems and require a different approach

2) Why are those ingredients good for my leather?
All our cleaners and protectors are water based which does act to a certain extent as a rehydrator for the leather - more so on perforated seats. The key here is that it is the surface of the leather that we are dealing with and not the leather itself. The surface has been 'protected' during the finishing process with pigments and top coats and it is this that we are trying to clean and care for. It is important to use products that will not damage this top coat as premature damage will shorten the life of the leather and reduce the value on resale. Using products that have been formulated correctly and thoroughly tested is therefore important to prolong the life of the leather.
It is generally dirt and abrasion that casue the premature wear to the leather surface so cleaning is of paramount importance.
Using protectors will make the leather easier to clean and help with the prevention of dye transfer which will all help to keep the leather in better condition for longer. Protector technology has advanced enormously over the years and continues to do so.

3) What research exists to back that up? ("thousands of happy customers" doesn't count)
As technical consultants and trainers to the cleaning industry we work closely with those involved in everyday care of car interiors as well as furniture, aircraft and handbags. We deal on a daily basis with the problems that are encountered by detailers and cleaners and solve problems for them. We have tested many different cleaners and leather care products on behalf of many different companies and the products we supply to the trade and consumer markets have all been through rigorous testing processes both at factory and workshop level. They are tested on many different leather finishes and the testing processes are strictly adhered to and include all the usual flex testing, abrasion and adhesion tests that this involves.
As leather consultants we have worked with the cleaning industry for over 2 decades and we would not be happy to supply chemicals that do not do what they are supposed to. We have access to tanners, leather technologists and scientists as well as cleaning technicians who report back to us on a regular basis about problems that they are seeing in this ever changing market so are kept up to date with things that need resolving. Our products have been developed and formulated to deal with these problems.

4) Why is the approach taken by your product better than other approaches? 
Ove the years we have had to tackle leather care on many different levels and having resolved many problems over the years on a technical level we have been able to produce products for both consumer and trade markets that reflect this. There is a lot of misunderstanding and bad information about leather care on the internet which only adds to the problem and we have always tried to give good, honest, practical information based on our experiences. We work with both new leather and leather that has been used and has problems - sometimes to do with products that have been used and sometimes to do with the quality of the finishing of the leather but these all need to be resolved.

I hope that this has been of some help. 
Regards
Judyb


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## TOGWT

Most companies won't release ingredients other than what's on the MSDS sheet. Patenting chemicals is pretty risky since if you change a couple of ingredients by a few percentages it's technically a different product.

When it comes to technical specifications and chemical formulations, it is important to realize that all companies must keep secure their proprietary information and agreements. Without this, no business would have the incentive to develop new products, expand their market, stay competitive, and ultimately - exist.

Giving a layperson a list of chemicals would not help, as soon as they see 'acid' they would condemn the product as unsuitable, they would not recognize another chemical ingredient as a buffer that would lessen its effect. There is a lot more to chemistry than what is taught in Chem 101


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## Spirit Detailing

JakeWhite said:


> Sorry dude I didn't realise I was just saying I haven't really seen it in my time. Not to the extent of the leather debates anyway


No bother, mate. Don't say sorry! Makes me feel bad.  Leather is a confined debate. Starting it again with waxes and other gear is a real can of worms thanks to the amount of users who like what they try but don't understand the technical side of it...which isn't a problem of course. Its just that some people get really grumpy is you disagree with their opinions!! LOL

At least with the leather discussion, there are some very good experts willing to educate us here.


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## Peter Parkinson

Im afraid you won't get a "round 2" because I don't pay to be on this Forum, therefoe I cannot advise on which products or care shedules will solve a particular problem, only companies that pay advertising fees to Detailing World are allowed to mention products and brand names.
And just to set the record straight, It was not me that has supposed to have sent Darryl or anybody else abusive emails, my only contact has been on the forum that was closed down.


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## WaxOnWaxOff

??? People mention brands and products on here all the time. Take a read of the topic and you'll find no-one's interested in "round 2" anyway. If you feel like answering the questions so that people can make a more informed choice about all products represented then that would be useful. 

It'd be nice to see other manufacturer's responses too if there are any more willing to step forward.


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## chillly

Great thread guys:thumb:


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## bero1306

I use Blackfire Interior Cleaner on my leather and its magic. There are many more cleaners out there. Some people i know do not even touch their leather and it still looks good so i think its not the end of the world what you use.


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## juddzey455

Dr Leather said:


> Yes it's a real issue as the foams are glued to the leather, etc. Some vapour form moisture can get through but not easily. Perforated leather is easier as the cross-section of the leather is exposed. It's a tricky one though, and a lot of it is controlled through the retanning products.


I agree but high end cars don't go down this route, are you talking foam injected ?

No leather should be hard glued to scrim foam and any manufacture that has done it has had problems in the "look" of the cover!

Aston DB9 seat is a prime example, great looking seat but due to the scrim foam glued to the leather it looks..wrinkled, or baggy.... poor design


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## Dr Leather

juddzey455 said:


> I agree but high end cars don't go down this route, are you talking foam injected ?
> 
> No leather should be hard glued to scrim foam and any manufacture that has done it has had problems in the "look" of the cover!
> 
> Aston DB9 seat is a prime example, great looking seat but due to the scrim foam glued to the leather it looks..wrinkled, or baggy.... poor design


Agreed on what you say, but I have seen quite a few things that should not be done in my time, and there is large variation in methods within manufacture. I think the point is that the leather is next to a foam that is pretty much closed cell structure. So the difficulty is getting moisture in to it from the flesh side - it is not impossible buy it can hinder it.


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## -Raven-

Any of the experts care to tell us ingredients to avoid, and which ones to look for? 

After reading countless threads, I'm more confused than when I started....


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## -Raven-

So no one wants to tell us?


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## WaxOnWaxOff

A shame. So far we've had only two manufacturers answer the original brief. I'll go fishing in some other manufacturer's areas and see if I can get any takers. I've invited Zaino, Autoglym and Furniture Clinic to take part as three manufacturers that leapt immediately to mind. 

Ingredients to avoid is a good idea but likely to spark the heated debate between manufacturers that has been seen before. I figured my approach would give customers the info to make informed choices purely by justifying their own products on a deeper level than marketing speak.

Also any news on the experiments, Dr Leather?


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## kasman

WaxOnWaxOff said:


> A shame. So far we've had only two manufacturers answer the original brief. I'll go fishing in some other manufacturer's areas and see if I can get any takers. I've invited Zaino, Autoglym and Furniture Clinic to take part as three manufacturers that leapt immediately to mind.
> 
> Ingredients to avoid is a good idea but likely to spark the heated debate between manufacturers that has been seen before. I figured my approach would give customers the info to make informed choices purely by justifying their own products on a deeper level than marketing speak.
> 
> Also any news on the experiments, Dr Leather?


Im pretty sure Peter from Liquid leather would have happily answered this thread, but I have noticed it has `banned` next to his name on a post. Dont know why, shame really as he was putting quite alot of useful info on here. Guess youd have to ring him if you wanted his answer:thumb:


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## chillly

Im pretty sure back in the good,bad old days silicone was poured onto the leather to waterproof it. Dont think it goes on today thou?


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## k4ith

How many people on here actualy have proper leather seats? Proper seats not plasticised coated which by enlarge most here will have.
I cant really see any company coming on here and saying stay way from this and that. If your really that interested get a msds sheet.


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## WaxOnWaxOff

I don't think it matters. Manufacturers don't make the distinction in whether their product is for coated leather or uncoated. They just target "leather". Given the debate about whether or not conditioners are needed on modern leathers as one notable example, I think it's worth seeing what the manufacturers have to say about why their products are good and what's behind those claims.


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## Trip tdi

This is a good thread, its a eye opener for me...

I always thought water was the best chemical going for leather seats...


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## -Raven-

k4ith said:


> How many people on here actualy have proper leather seats? Proper seats not plasticised coated which by enlarge most here will have.
> I cant really see any company coming on here and saying stay way from this and that. If your really that interested get a msds sheet.


MSDS sheet is still useless if:

1: you don't know what the chemicals are
2: you don't know what effect the chemicals have
3: you don't know how the chemicals react with each other

Which is why some info in this area might just be useful instead of the usual "product bashing" / "our product is the best" that seems to happen.

Like most people here, I'd like to make an informed decission about what products I use, it's a lot better than trial and error. Hopefully not error.


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## Dr Leather

WaxOnWaxOff said:


> Also any news on the experiments, Dr Leather?


Sorry had loads to finish off before Christmas. Here you go - you'll see that when you put a fully pigmented basecoat and clear top coat on leather you kill breathability so some of the statements I've seen from other leather people are shot down with this. There is some breathability but I'd say about 2-5% compared to the uncoated leather, and again if you can't get a gas to go through it then how on earth can conditioners!!!!

Anyway take a look and happy to answer questions.


----------



## fatdazza

Daryl,

many thanks for a practical demonstration.

I use your leather wipes and find them fantastic.

I have one question - my Mercedes has "perforated" leather seats, so in theory some of the "interior" of the leather is exposed and not covered by a "topcoat". Is there any risk of the leather "drying out"?

Sorry for the non technical terms used


----------



## Dr Leather

fatdazza said:


> Daryl,
> 
> many thanks for a practical demonstration.
> 
> I use your leather wipes and find them fantastic.
> 
> I have one question - my Mercedes has "perforated" leather seats, so in theory some of the "interior" of the leather is exposed and not covered by a "topcoat". Is there any risk of the leather "drying out"?
> 
> Sorry for the non technical terms used


Hi there - many thanks for your comments. Perforations create a hole through the cross-section (or almost all the way through) and thus this situation does expose the fibre structure so that it can be rehydrated. In my opinion this is a better option to keep the leather naturally hydrated compared to a non-perforated leather.

Cheers, Darryl


----------



## WaxOnWaxOff

Thanks Dr Leather for the breathability demo! A simple but effective way of showing the difference in gas permeability between coated and uncoated leather to my eye. 

One question: In just about any other plastic coating application I can think of there's a risk of the plastic layer separating from whatever substrate is underneath it e.g. if water gets between the two on an exterior surface for instance. How come this doesn't happen with coated car leathers? Is it just that it's not a distinct layer bonded to the leather but something that has partially impregnated the upper surface?


----------



## Dr Leather

WaxOnWaxOff said:


> Thanks Dr Leather for the breathability demo! A simple but effective way of showing the difference in gas permeability between coated and uncoated leather to my eye.
> 
> One question: In just about any other plastic coating application I can think of there's a risk of the plastic layer separating from whatever substrate is underneath it e.g. if water gets between the two on an exterior surface for instance. How come this doesn't happen with coated car leathers? Is it just that it's not a distinct layer bonded to the leather but something that has partially impregnated the upper surface?


You're welcome. In truth the science goes a lot deeper on this topic but this shows the reality very effectively.

On the leather we will apply an adhesion coat that penetrates in to the surface of the leather and this is crosslinked with specific chemicals. The base coats are the applied and the topcoats. All of the coats are crosslinked, most commonly with isocyanate which are very irreversible. There are a few other tricks we do, but effectively we render the whole system hydrophobic, so that water will not resolubilise the water based polymers used in the various coats applied.

We complete many physical test methods on the leather and it needs to reach certain specifications. For the wet adhesion the leather will be soaked until the leather is saturated and then we assess if the adhesion of the basecoat to the leather is assessed. Again I could show you a video, but not for a few weeks as I'm away again very soon.

Hope this gives an insight. If you had a week I could explain it down to the finest detail.

Cheers, Darryl


----------



## fatdazza

Dr Leather said:


> Hi there - many thanks for your comments. Perforations create a hole through the cross-section (or almost all the way through) and thus this situation does expose the fibre structure so that it can be rehydrated. In my opinion this is a better option to keep the leather naturally hydrated compared to a non-perforated leather.
> 
> Cheers, Darryl


Thanks - I may be being a bit dense here, but are you saying perforated leather is better than non perforated?

And, when you say keeping the leather naturally hydrated, do you mean it needs nothing other than cleaning?

Cheers


----------



## Dr Leather

fatdazza said:


> Thanks - I may be being a bit dense here, but are you saying perforated leather is better than non perforated?
> 
> And, when you say keeping the leather naturally hydrated, do you mean it needs nothing other than cleaning?
> 
> Cheers


To me perforated leather can both lose moisture but also reabsorb leather depending upon the ambient humidity in the environment of the vehicle. So I think from the point of view of maintaining natural moisture in the leather then yes I think perforated is better, so long as the micro holes do not clog up.

Natural hydration is where the leather will be dynamic and lose/reabsorb moisture from the air. Of course in very hot countries this is not so easy and so using a water based like our product it will simultaneously confer some moisture to the leather, but you can also just as easily lightly mist on some distilled water and push it across the surface and naturally some moisture will transfer in to the open perforations. But just be careful not to put too much moisture in. Ideally leather shouldn't go too much above 16% otherwise it can cause the leather to stretch a little.

Cheers, Darryl


----------



## chillly

Brilliant info Darryl. May i ask if The stitching areas would be able to re hydrate? If so would that be enough to hydrate the rest. Again great video mate. Also when all said and done just keeping the leather clean on a regular basis as you have said numourous times is sufficient yes?. 

And leather which is lets say is getting on abit and the original protectant has worn away would then benifit from re protection due to the wear and tare over time and use?.

Also would steam under the seats travel upwards and eventually reach the leather?


----------



## Dr Leather

chillly said:


> Brilliant info Darryl. May i ask if The stitching areas would be able to re hydrate? If so would that be enough to hydrate the rest. Again great video mate. Also when all said and done just keeping the leather clean on a regular basis as you have said numourous times is sufficient yes?.
> 
> And leather which is lets say is getting on abit and the original protectant has worn away would then benifit from re protection due to the wear and tear over time and use?.
> 
> Also would steam under the seats travel upwards and eventually reach the leather?


Thanks again for the comments. Yes I am certain you get moisture movement along the thread, although that is with the reserve statement that it is dependent upon the thread type. But I don't think it would be enough as the internal fibre structure surface area is massive. I still say modern day leathers are best off being only cleaned. I have looked at this time and time again and I struggle to observe anything go through the finish (the coatings) unless it is a harsh solvent based chemical which can ultimately have and adverse effect on the finish and the leather.

Protectants are sacrificial. They don't fix well if applied to the leather surface after the leather has been made. They can assist with preventing denim indigo dye staining, but usually that is because the leather is not cleaned regularly, etc.

Steam - OK definite caution here. Leather has two types of thermal stability. Dry thermal stability can mean the leather fibres will not denature until you get to say 120 - 130 'C, but hydrothermal stability (i.e. wet heat) is a different kettle of fish and very dependent upon the tannage used, etc. But you are now understanding that getting that moisture in to the fibre structure is important, but very tricky once the leather is in the seat.

Cheers

Darryl


----------



## chillly

WaxOnWaxOff turned into a very helpful thread buddy:thumb:


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## -Raven-

chillly said:


> WaxOnWaxOff turned into a very helpful thread buddy:thumb:


and thanks Darryl too! :thumb:


----------



## WaxOnWaxOff

I certainly appreciate Dr Leather's info and education of us customer folk, and look forward to hearing more - this is great stuff. Hats off to Dr Leather and LTT so far.

Still looking for answers and info from other manufacturers though so hopefully some more will make their own additions.


----------



## bmwman

Good thread. Question for the experts: I have apparently a luxury leather in my alfa romeo. The leather seems to mark very easily and is very very soft almost too fragile. The leather is named: Pelle frau or Poltrona frau leather. Any tips on maintaing this type of leather? does it also have a top coat?


----------



## Dr Leather

bmwman said:


> Good thread. Question for the experts: I have apparently a luxury leather in my alfa romeo. The leather seems to mark very easily and is very very soft almost too fragile. The leather is named: Pelle frau or Poltrona frau leather. Any tips on maintaing this type of leather? does it also have a top coat?


The Poltrona Frau Group offer high end products for luxury and top end products. Not seeing the leather I would guess it is a semi-aniline leather. This means that a very high grade leather from a perspective of zero surface defects/blemishes has been used, then just a very light pigmented coating to assist colour levelness before clear top coats. But this is an assumption. If it is an unfinished fully aniline leather then you that is a different story.

Can you supply pictures to me [email protected] and I will take a look for you.

Cheers,

Darryl


----------



## judyb

This is very high quality leather as Darryl says.
The quality of leather is determined by several factors including the husbandry of the cattle that the leather was produced from and the finishing processes that have been used at the tannery.
It is likely to be what is known as Full Grain leather which will give it its soft hand. 
*Full Grain* leather is the best quality leather there is and has little or no 'damage' to the top surface. You pay premium prices for this type of leather as it is only about 5% of leather produced. 
Full Grain Leather is usually Aniline Dyed through and can then be used for Aniline Style leathers or can have a surface coating (pigment) applied which in the technical world we call Micro Pigment (Semi Aniline is a very misused term in the industry - particularly in the furniture industry and whilst correct in this instance has also been used to describe things that are not which is why as technicians we try not to use it).

*Aniline Style* leather - these will 
a) absorb moisture readily (apply some foam cleaner and it will leave a dark patch that dries out) and 
b)will scratch (run your finger nail lightly over the surface)

*Micro Pigment*
These may absorb moisture to a certain extent but it will take longer for this to happen
May scratch but will not be as apparent as the Aniline leather (depending on the colour)

If moisture is not absorbed but sits on the surface then you have a pigment coated leather which may still be full grain.
These tests will tell you the type of leather you have and can also be verified with the use of a microscope which is how we teach leather ID.

Aniline style leather and Micro Pigment will benefit greatly from the use of a good quality protector (Auto Ultra Protect) to help guard against stains and dye transfer. UV protection is also important as these leathers are more prone to fading than pigment coated leather.
As far as cleaning is concerned, there are specific cleaners for Aniline style leather. For a Micro Pigment the rate that the moisture was absorbed will determine the best method. For a slow rate a foam cleaner can be used as the foam will remain on the surface longer than a liquid and actually allow cleanining to be done. For a fast rate the Aniline Cleaner should be used which is a non surfactant cleaner allowing the surface to be cleaned more readily.

Post a picture and we can give further care advice if required or send them to [email protected] for technical appraisal.

Hope this helps
Judyb


----------



## Dr Leather

Truthfully I have never heard of micropigment in the industry. Normally micropigment only relates to the particle size of the pigments used. Still there you have it.......

Full grain leather simply means the natural grain of the leather remains. It can be good quality or low grade, it makes no difference, and it can be aniline (dyed only) or coated. Softness is only related to the tanning processes used - you can get soft or firm leather whether it is full grain, corrected grain, etc, etc.

Aniline leathers can be made very water and oil resistant. That is what we did for military gloves all around the world and many sports gloves. Again depends on the chemistry used. But to say aniline leathers absorb moisture readily is *completely incorrect*. I'll do another video of that if you like.

Anyway it's Christmas.... goodwill to all men............


----------



## bmwman

Thanks for the info. I hope to be able to take some decent pictures of the leather over the coming day or two. I have noticed that the leather is easily marked. The leather is firm yet very soft and flexible. For example water spills or spots on the leather after drying leave a mark that Is quite hard to remove. I usually need a microfibre towel with water and a cleaning agent/ leather cleaner.


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## judyb

Micro Pigment is a term used by leather technicians on the repair side of the industry to describe a leather with a fine layer of pigment coating. It is a more descriptive term which enables us to clarify the type of leather for repair purposes against the many varieties that are mis labelled 'Semi Aniline'.
I did say that full grain can be aniline dyed or coated but it still remains the better quality as it has had nothing removed from the surface which then requires fillers etc before it can be coated.
Of course some leathers can be made water and oil resistant but we rarely come across these in furniture or car upholstery where the standard test for determining the correct way of cleaning and care is to do a moisture test as this will give the technician or cleaner a good idea of how successful the cleaning process will be. Most aniline leather will absorb moisture unless it has been treated in some way and yes I know you will do tests on some of your leather that shows that this is not the case - aniline leather that has been protected will not absorb in the sam way as an aniline leather without so therefore can be cleaned as we are dealing with the surface and not the leather itself.
Once again we come from different angles of the industry where we are dealing with the practicalities of what can and cannot be cleaned and the correct methods to be used. 

Hope this helps
Happy Chtistmas
Judyb


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## judyb

> Thanks for the info. I hope to be able to take some decent pictures of the leather over the coming day or two. I have noticed that the leather is easily marked. The leather is firm yet very soft and flexible. For example water spills or spots on the leather after drying leave a mark that Is quite hard to remove. I usually need a microfibre towel with water and a cleaning agent/ leather cleaner.


If water spills leave a mark this leather should be protected as then the surface will not be so open to spillages etc. A non surfactant cleaner can then be used to keep it clean. It is always important to clean a whole panel and not to try spot cleaning so that water marks can be avoided.
Send some photos and we can let you know the correct care products to use.
Cheers
Judyb


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## judyb

I'm sure Darryl if we collaborated, your knowledge of leather production and finishes on new leather together with mine of cleaning and repair for dealing with everyday problems of consumers and technicians we could come up with the most awesome range of products on the market - how about it for 2012? It would be great for the industry.


----------



## Dr Leather

judyb said:


> I'm sure Darryl if we collaborated, your knowledge of leather production and finishes on new leather together with mine of cleaning and repair for dealing with everyday problems of consumers and technicians we could come up with the most awesome range of products on the market - how about it for 2012? It would be great for the industry.


I think I offered you that back in August 2010 :thumb: But it is good of you to think about me.

But always open to options, and more than happy to offer you a guest lecture at your courses if you like, but the biggest thing for the consumer would be to recognise an initiative called Leather Naturally which has been started by the real tanning industry to re-educate consumers on real leather as opposed to being told a load of old BS. http://www.leathernaturally.org/ I recommend all to check it out.

But 2012, alas, may mean lots of changes. I may be joining as R&D Director of one of the largest tanneries in the world. :devil: But our products will still be manufactured and distributed as normal.

Merry Christmas

Darryl


----------



## Dr Leather

Answers in blue.....



judyb said:


> Micro Pigment is a term used by leather technicians on the repair side of the industry to describe a leather with a fine layer of pigment coating. It is a more descriptive term which enables us to clarify the type of leather for repair purposes against the many varieties that are mis labelled 'Semi Aniline'.
> 
> *DL - So what is the official description of this???? If it's good I'll introduce it to the tanning world.*
> 
> I did say that full grain can be aniline dyed or coated but it still remains the better quality as it has had nothing removed from the surface which then requires fillers etc before it can be coated.
> 
> Of course some leathers can be made water and oil resistant but we rarely come across these in furniture or car upholstery where the standard test for determining the correct way of cleaning and care is to do a moisture test as this will give the technician or cleaner a good idea of how successful the cleaning process will be.
> 
> *DL - My advice...... never assume these days - materials are being changed all the time.*
> 
> Most aniline leather will absorb moisture unless it has been treated in some way and yes I know you will do tests on some of your leather that shows that this is not the case - aniline leather that has been protected will not absorb in the sam way as an aniline leather without so therefore can be cleaned as we are dealing with the surface and not the leather itself.
> 
> Once again we come from different angles of the industry where we are dealing with the practicalities of what can and cannot be cleaned and the correct methods to be used.
> 
> *DL - Understood, but I still think it right that we educate the forum in the correct way with the correct termionlogy.*
> 
> Hope this helps
> Happy Chtistmas
> Judyb


----------



## judyb

I fully agree that the consumer needs to be educated - something we have been involved in for a long time. We were at the first Beast to Beauty conference which was great and good to see that these things are beginning to carry weight. We have also presented papers as SLTC conferences on consumer perception of leather and it's care. Leather Naturally is a great initiative and we will be happy to help wherever we can.
Cheers
Judyb


----------



## chillly

Dr Leather said:


> I think I offered you that back in August 2010 :thumb: But it is good of you to think about me.
> 
> But always open to options, and more than happy to offer you a guest lecture at your courses if you like, but the biggest thing for the consumer would be to recognise an initiative called Leather Naturally which has been started by the real tanning industry to re-educate consumers on real leather as opposed to being told a load of old BS. http://www.leathernaturally.org/ I recommend all to check it out.
> 
> But 2012, alas, may mean lots of changes. I may be joining as R&D Director of one of the largest tanneries in the world. :devil: But our products will still be manufactured and distributed as normal.
> 
> Merry Christmas
> 
> Darryl


Congrats Darryl:thumb: Thanks for all your info this year mate and will look forward to that pressed cider of yours in 2012 . Merry xmas to you and yours buddy :thumb:


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## Guest

If there's nothing to hide............


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## bmwman

Managed to get some pictures of my car leathers uploaded, as i stated earlier they are pelle frau leathers and i'd appreciate the experts opinions on how i should go about ensuring they are kept clean and protected if necessary?



























Pictures have come out quite large, I wasn't sure how to resize sorry.


----------



## Ricwin

So far theres been no mention of the one 'ingrediant' which vehicle, sofa and even my jacket manufacturers all recommend to maintain their leather products.

Good old Lanolin.

Lanolin leather care products will feed, condition and maintain most types of leather. Any leather care product worth its price tag will contain this ingrediant. AND will advertise the fact that their product contains Lanolin.

I've used products containing lanolin for years and have seen nothing but good results and long lasting leather. Inferior products (even from 'leading' companies) which do not contain lanolin have never given me as good results.

Its no good just cleaning your leather with, for example, Auto Glym Leather cleaner, rinsing with water (as instructed) and then leaving it as it is. You'll ruin the leather in no time. 
Dry it off with a microfibre towel and apply some decent leather care which contains lanolin.

Hell, if no one wants to invest into any particular leather care product from one of the leading detailing companies: then try Simoniz Leather Care Cream, which costs next to nothing (like £4 from Tesco) as it contains Lanolin and does a damn good job.


----------



## WaxOnWaxOff

But what good does lanolin do on a polymer top coat? It's a wax, and unless you're an equestrian looking to waterproof your gear, or into repairing leather book bindings Lanolin has some major disadvantages - it softens leather very easily, leading to deformation of things like walking boots and loss of support to the user and it is susceptible to microbial attack, and can lead to rotting of stitching and leather. Not so much of an issue in cars perhaps, but the softening effect is probably not desirable unless you want saggy seats (assuming it didn't just sit on the surface of the top coatings). I'm not sure how it could be of benefit....


----------



## Ricwin

Pure lanolin is indeed a wax. Which waterproofs surfaces and has other uses. And of course in its wax state, it can cause such reactions you've listed if used incorrectly and simply applied to the surface of the item you are working on.

However we're not talking about waxing car seats. That'd be pointless lol

A 'polymer top coat' isn't a plastic-like artificial layer designed to protect the leather of your seats; it is the leather. Polymer is certainly a way to try to show your inteligence regarding the matter in question.... however the polymer you refer to is still the same proteins which make up the hide (leather) and thus must be fed, moisturised and maintained correctly to prevent it from drying out and cracking. Similar to yours or my skin, especially in winter. 
My hands dry out very easily working in a warm 'air conditioned' room and outside in the cold, hence why i am constantly using Vaseline Intensive Rescue Moisture locking Lotion to prevent them cracking so much that they bleed again. I still have scars on my hands from last year.

To answer your original question; lanolin, in conjunction with other ingrediants found in ideal leather care products, provides a suitable feed nutrient and moisturiser to maintain leather. It should be left on the leather for a few minutes to be 'absorbed' before being buffed off. 

I'd like to see the effects of pure lanolin on car seats though. I imagine the end result would leave your **** sliding around the seat, similar to an energetic dog on laminate floor.

Regardless though, i do agree with you. These leading manufactureres certainly need to provide more info regarding their products. Not necessarily the exact production process, but definately their main ingrediants and uses of.


----------



## WaxOnWaxOff

Interesting, thanks. I wasn't using "polymer" to sound intelligent. Plastics like Polyurethane used to coat leathers are polymers. Simples  Dr Leather and other sources indicate that modern car leathers are comprised of a number of coats applied to the leather to give a complete coating, rather than being a modification of the proteins of the leather itself. What is your source of info?

Lanolin in a leather care product is going to be at room temperature or below so will still be a solid wax if not kept in a solution. I would suspect then that leather care products with lanolin aren't using the wax form of lanolin but the oil form, which also happens to be cheaper and doesn't stink of sheep. I'm having trouble finding any references to any form of lanolin being good for car leather though unless it's Ye Olde Stylee leather without a top coat.

Even here, I can't find any reference to use on coated or car leathers, either in its wax or alcohol forms:
http://www.lanolin.com/lanolin-for-industrial-applications.html
...and that's from a lanolin supplier. For me, the use of lanolin remains dubious.

Back to the manufacturers, I've found another manufacturer with some good detail about their products. Unfortunately for anyone interested in their products, they're in Australia. Fortunately their blurb includes some bikini shots among the text to make up for it and keep you awake 

http://www.bowdensown.com.au/leather-care-blog


----------



## Spirit Detailing

Oils and soft plastics/acrylics/urethanes don't mix well. Lanolin needs to be packaged in HDPE containers because it would corrode anything less. Repeated application on to the top-coat of leather can cause the break-down of cross-linkers and binding agents. Its simple chemistry. 

Lanolin along with Neatsfoot, Mink Oil, etc, are all historic products dating back to the 17th century and earlier. Mink oil was originally used by trappers when their hands became cracked to soften them. They then put it on the soles of their shoes to make them waterproof and flexible. 

Modern tanned and manufactured leather does not need anything added to the surface. Softening it does not imply that it is in better condition. There are in-built protectors and anti-mould agents that can be diminished. Too much moisture can cause leather rot. 

Any similarities that leather has to skin stops in the tanning process. If it were skin, it would decompose naturally. Treating it like skin is incorrect and will also cause it to decompose since you are damaging the result of the whole manufacturers preservation process. 

The topcoat is the finish on the leather. The process goes as follows:
1. Curing
2. Liming
3. Splitting
4. Tanning
5. Drying
6. Finishing
7. Drumming

Stage 6 is where the coating is rolled or sprayed onto the leather, specifically chosen to suit the market that the leather is intended for. It is really the finish that requires the care. Not the hide underneath. That looks after itself.

Cheers

Brian


----------



## Dr Leather

Ricwin said:


> So far theres been no mention of the one 'ingrediant' which vehicle, sofa and even my jacket manufacturers all recommend to maintain their leather products.
> 
> Good old Lanolin.
> 
> Lanolin leather care products will feed, condition and maintain most types of leather. Any leather care product worth its price tag will contain this ingrediant. AND will advertise the fact that their product contains Lanolin.
> 
> I've used products containing lanolin for years and have seen nothing but good results and long lasting leather. Inferior products (even from 'leading' companies) which do not contain lanolin have never given me as good results.
> 
> Its no good just cleaning your leather with, for example, Auto Glym Leather cleaner, rinsing with water (as instructed) and then leaving it as it is. You'll ruin the leather in no time.
> Dry it off with a microfibre towel and apply some decent leather care which contains lanolin.
> 
> Hell, if no one wants to invest into any particular leather care product from one of the leading detailing companies: then try Simoniz Leather Care Cream, which costs next to nothing (like £4 from Tesco) as it contains Lanolin and does a damn good job.


Without sounding like a broken record, lanolin is an old style lubricant used to re-lubricate leathers from years ago. Hardly any tanner now uses lanolin as it is old technology due to it not fixing to the fibres, can migrate/fogg out of the leather and generally only penetrates and lubricates to a certain hierarchy in the fibre structure. Things have moved on a lot but the old fashioned leather feeding story still seems to haunt us.

Trust me that the top coat on modern day auto leathers is so tough it will not easily let anything through it. I suggest a lot more research on this in truth as I sincerely believe your info to be out of date. For leathers pre 1990's I would agree with you though.......

Rgds,

Darryl


----------



## Dr Leather

WaxOnWaxOff said:


> Back to the manufacturers, I've found another manufacturer with some good detail about their products. Unfortunately for anyone interested in their products, they're in Australia. Fortunately their blurb includes some bikini shots among the text to make up for it and keep you awake
> 
> http://www.bowdensown.com.au/leather-care-blog


And would you believe it that Dan Bowden came to visit me in my office in Brisbane a couple of years ago and I gave him a lesson in modern leather technology and even wrote some technical blurb for him which I still have on my computer!!!!!

I tested our product against his as it was a fairly good product, but I think we have the upper hand .......


----------



## Dr Leather

Spirit Detailing said:


> Modern tanned and manufactured leather does not need anything added to the surface. Softening it does not imply that it is in better condition. There are in-built protectors and anti-mould agents that can be diminished. Too much moisture can cause leather rot.
> 
> Any similarities that leather has to skin stops in the tanning process. If it were skin, it would decompose naturally. Treating it like skin is incorrect and will also cause it to decompose since you are damaging the result of the whole manufacturers preservation process.
> 
> The topcoat is the finish on the leather. The process goes as follows:
> 1. Curing
> 2. Liming
> 3. Splitting
> 4. Tanning
> 5. Drying
> 6. Finishing
> 7. Drumming
> 
> Stage 6 is where the coating is rolled or sprayed onto the leather, specifically chosen to suit the market that the leather is intended for. It is really the finish that requires the care. Not the hide underneath. That looks after itself.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Brian


Building upon Brian's correct analogy above it's worth stating that you are looking at about 100 steps to make a piece of leather. The beamhouse, tanning and retanning processing is important for the leather underneath and the finishing operations that apply the coatings are the important part for on the surface of the leather. The leather industry takes a wonderful natural scaffold material that is a by-product of the meat industry, i.e. the hide or skin of an animal, and then modifies it a lot through various chemistry to give a beautiful and long lasting product. Whilst the fibre structure hasn't changed much the chemistry has moved forwards at a massive pace, and will continue to keep doing so.......

Cheers, Darryl


----------



## Tiauguinho

Spirit Detailing said:


> Audi -> Wollsdorf Leather (more than likely)
> 
> Link to recommended care technique : http://www.wollsdorf-leder.com/eng/service/WL_Lederpflege_e.pdf
> 
> 1) What's actually, really, properly in your product?
> 2) Why are those ingredients good for my leather?
> 3) What research exists to back that up? ("thousands of happy customers" doesn't count)
> 4) Why is the approach taken by your product better than other approaches?
> 
> That's like questioning a politician before an election. They will only tell you what you want to hear and then rarely live up to the promises.
> 
> My recommendations are for you to mainly clean the leather. Vacuum and wipe regularly.
> 
> Using seat-protection depends on your use of the car. If you have a family car, definitely use a protector as a sacrificial barrier. It will need to be topped up periodically.
> 
> If its just you driving your car to work, then simply put protector on the drivers seat but still do a maintenance clean on the whole car on a regular basis. If its your Bugatti Veyron or Koenigsegg, then just keep it clean, you lucky bugger!
> 
> Conditioners are not necessary. Just because they exist, it doesn't mean you need to use it on your leather at the drop of a hat. If any of the makers were honest enough to answer your questions in full, it would be reeeaaallly good. I'd love to hear about it.
> 
> However, a lot of them out-source the actual manufacturing to a chemicals company who provide them with a formula of ingredients which may or may not be useful to leather. And how are we to know if the actual percentage of useful active ingredients within it is any use at all? Could be just a teaspoon per barrel!
> 
> In my opinion, there are no leather conditioners - only people conditioners!!  What people want for their leather is a scent and a placebo softening effect. Thats all they get most of the time. They are conditioned into thinking that leather needs a remedy for a problem that does not exist.
> 
> That might upset people who sell conditioners, but telling you that fast-food is bad for you would upset McDonalds. As I always say, there are four sides to every story so take what you want from the information provided.
> 
> Now I will put on the popcorn and watch this progress.... :lol:


This man speaks the truth!


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## -Raven-

Tiauguinho said:


> This man speaks the truth!


But still clear as mud! :lol:


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## WaxOnWaxOff

Well the invites went out to a few other companies to take part in this thread, and none have. That's a shame as I think it would have made this a really good thread for people (who want to) to come and compare approaches and products. Some products are expensive, perhaps too expensive to take a random punt on, so it's good to see some manufacturers are willing to justify why you should part with your hard-earned cash and buy their products.

Personally, I think I'll be buying products from companies that are willing to be open and share knowledge without just saying "our product's the best thing for leather since sliced bread". 

Have you heard about the benefits of bread on leather? It naturally moisturises and conditions it.


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## tarbyonline

I would just like to say thank you to DR Leather and JudyB for the info they have given us in this thread - makes for very interesting reading! Just a quick question, I work for a large retailer of home furnishings - would automotive leather be similar to what we would call bi-cast leather in terms of the coatings applied as I know for example we sell different treatments for bi-cast and "real" leather (I dont work in that part so my knowledge is limited). Reason I ask is it would perhaps help demonstrate the difference between normal household leather products and those that are produced for the automotive industry - i.e. not all leather is the same


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## EVL

Just a thought - brand new auto leather might not need conditioning as some say, but leather in cars a few years old is no longer brand new. Scuffs and scratches from regular use etc will damage the top layer in some places. When the top layer is damaged, common sense would dictate that conditioners or moisture would penetrate. The same stands for perforated leather?


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## Fac

Im using Dr.Leather wipes on brand new leather to maintain that pristine just installed look/feel/smell.
The sofa looks replenished and what I immediately noted was the wipes took the dirt away without pulling dye, which is what everything else has ever done.
The car has had one going over, the steering wheel doesn't feel sticky - its kinda like the noise of catching an apple when you grip it, lovely..
Handbrake, door trims, centre console all got that nice flat lustre. No residues on clothes or skin to concern about.
The car still smells like a leather coat shop and the seats are very clean so I'm impressed and grateful.
I used five individual wipes, one for each seat and one for wheel, trim etc.
Got 150 in the tub so I'm hoping for around twenty full hits +- the wheel wipes, hair product and kids fingers. 
Good investment I fancy.
Al


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## Dr Leather

tarbyonline said:


> I would just like to say thank you to DR Leather and JudyB for the info they have given us in this thread - makes for very interesting reading! Just a quick question, I work for a large retailer of home furnishings - would automotive leather be similar to what we would call bi-cast leather in terms of the coatings applied as I know for example we sell different treatments for bi-cast and "real" leather (I dont work in that part so my knowledge is limited). Reason I ask is it would perhaps help demonstrate the difference between normal household leather products and those that are produced for the automotive industry - i.e. not all leather is the same


Hi there,

Automotive leather is generally a higher specification, although the manufacturing principles are the same. The only issue I see is that there is a huge variation in the quality of production for furniture leather. China has played a major part in this as you get a spectrum of tanneries regarding technical prowess and quality assurance. Frightening!!!!

Bi-cast leather (also known as Levacast) is actually pretty poor quality. In truth what goes on with that is that a very low grade leather (from a surface defect point of view) or even a split (effectively a suede split) is used as the base material and then a pre-made PU/acrylic film is then effectively laminated to the surface of the leather.

Real leather will be finished (coated) on the grain layer and as such it has a finer and more elegant look, whether it is genuine full grain or slightly corrected (meaning a light snuffing on the grain).

But our Dr Leather product is suited to all leathers that have been finished with a PU or Acrylic binder system.

Cheers,

Dr Leather


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## Dr Leather

EVL said:


> Just a thought - brand new auto leather might not need conditioning as some say, but leather in cars a few years old is no longer brand new. Scuffs and scratches from regular use etc will damage the top layer in some places. When the top layer is damaged, common sense would dictate that conditioners or moisture would penetrate. The same stands for perforated leather?


Yes but you need to understand that there are effectively 3-4 coats applied to the leather from adhesion coat -base coats - and finally a top coat. So if you can see the true grain surface of the leather through a scratch then you'll be right, but honestly you should see the abrasion resistance testing we need to go through.

The other aspect, as mentioned before, is that the traditional fats and oils used in leather manufacture, which were able to migrate (remember the old issue of fogging on your windscreen!!) are reacted on to the fibre nowadays. In the old days they were more 'deposited' shall we say.

Perforated is another scenario, but be careful the conditioner doesn't interfere with the exposed edge and thus create any adhesion issues.....

Thanks,

Dr Leather


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## Dr Leather

Fac said:


> Im using Dr.Leather wipes on brand new leather to maintain that pristine just installed look/feel/smell.
> The sofa looks replenished and what I immediately noted was the wipes took the dirt away without pulling dye, which is what everything else has ever done.
> The car has had one going over, the steering wheel doesn't feel sticky - its kinda like the noise of catching an apple when you grip it, lovely..
> Handbrake, door trims, centre console all got that nice flat lustre. No residues on clothes or skin to concern about.
> The car still smells like a leather coat shop and the seats are very clean so I'm impressed and grateful.
> I used five individual wipes, one for each seat and one for wheel, trim etc.
> Got 150 in the tub so I'm hoping for around twenty full hits +- the wheel wipes, hair product and kids fingers.
> Good investment I fancy.
> Al


Thanks for the feedback. Glad to hear you were pleased with the product.

Cheers,

Dr Leather


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## tarbyonline

Dr Leather said:


> Hi there,
> 
> Automotive leather is generally a higher specification, although the manufacturing principles are the same. The only issue I see is that there is a huge variation in the quality of production for furniture leather. China has played a major part in this as you get a spectrum of tanneries regarding technical prowess and quality assurance. Frightening!!!!
> 
> Bi-cast leather (also known as Levacast) is actually pretty poor quality. In truth what goes on with that is that a very low grade leather (from a surface defect point of view) or even a split (effectively a suede split) is used as the base material and then a pre-made PU/acrylic film is then effectively laminated to the surface of the leather.
> 
> Real leather will be finished (coated) on the grain layer and as such it has a finer and more elegant look, whether it is genuine full grain or slightly corrected (meaning a light snuffing on the grain).
> 
> But our Dr Leather product is suited to all leathers that have been finished with a PU or Acrylic binder system.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Dr Leather


Thanks Dr! I was aware bicast is a lower quality leather (hence the lower price point) just wondered if the final treatment process was similar as i find the harder feel of it similar to some of the leather i have seen in cars, such as my brothers 2009 fiesta but unlike our 2012 focus which seems to use a much softer type of leather. I guess there are 1000's of variables which affect the final surface feel and finish.


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## Buck

Very interesting read and good information from Judy and Daryl.

Can I ask what type of leather is in Audi's (latest models) and the best way to look after these?


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## Dr Leather

Buck said:


> Very interesting read and good information from Judy and Daryl.
> 
> Can I ask what type of leather is in Audi's (latest models) and the best way to look after these?


I believe the majority is still a chrome free leather for Audi with the fairly standard PU/acrylic blend binder coats, with the exception of their own specific auxiliaries regarding colour, gloss control and touch. Regular cleaning is my suggestion for such seats.

Thanks

Dr Leather


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## G.P

Dr Leather said:


> Perforated is another scenario, but be careful the conditioner doesn't interfere with the exposed edge and thus create any adhesion issues.....


My wheel is part perforated, are your wipes ok on this?


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## Dr Leather

G.P said:


> My wheel is part perforated, are your wipes ok on this?


Yes - no issues. And the 40 wipe sized product is just about to go live as well.

Cheers,

Darryl


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## traplin

Dr Leather said:


> Yes - no issues. And the 40 wipe sized product is just about to go live as well.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Darryl


How much will the 40 wipes be?


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## Dr Leather

Hi there - they are being handled by [email protected] Valeting. So we'll know very soon and let you know. 

Cheers,

Dr Leather


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