# average speed cameras - APITA



## kingswood (Jun 23, 2016)

been out today, up towards York for those who know it, and they've removed the standard speed cameras and placed averaged speed camera's a massive stretch of the road.

this seems to have caused a traffic jam out of no where as people do 50mph (its a 60 limit but have to be sure they're not above)- and the remaining people stuck behind to scared to over take.

was stuck in it both ways and really took any joy out of the drive :-/ passed a few Porsche's and even a DB9 on the other side of the road, i bet it was killing them.

i think this will be a sign of things to come - more averages , the use of GPS to limit the roads and ultimately self drive cars 

as Stallone once said - someone put me back in the fridge!


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## Blueberry (Aug 10, 2007)

I drive that road regularly. People are scared to overtake for fear of speeding.


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## alphaj12 (Feb 17, 2011)

Most of the A9 into the highlands now has average speed cameras, if you don't have cruise control you spend the entire trip watching your speedo.


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## should_do_more (Apr 30, 2008)

Same as the M4 bit into London. There's a 60 average on the old bus lane part, no idea why, never used to be a problem years ago without cameras or 60 limit.

You end up with three lanes doing 60 all in cruise probably, just builds up the traffic


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Darlofan (Nov 24, 2010)

I prefer the average ones to normal. Normal ones catch you or stop you speeding at a 20m section of road which is no use to anyone. At least average ones reduce speed to a reasonable level over a decent distance.
Ones I drive through on motorways and roadworks I think work at controlling traffic, easier if you have cruise control though.
Still see a lot of drivers that obviously don't know what average means though.


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## turboyamaha (Nov 18, 2010)

Average speed Cameras can be bloody dangerous all you do is look at speedo all the time. Still have not seen any proof they reduce accidents.


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## TonyHill (Jul 28, 2015)

They're awful. There's a huge 17 mile stretch near Manchester and it causes big tailbacks. Also makes passing HGVs a pain, especially the foreign left hand drive ones, as you can be stuck in their blindspot for quite a while. I've seen many near misses!! :wall:


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## adf27 (Mar 14, 2012)

I always think there should be massive "Use cruise control" signs through average speed cameras, I'm sure it would make the traffic flow better if everyone who has cruise control used it. 
Just my 2 pence


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## shycho (Sep 7, 2010)

I think the 14+ miles of M3 which has been temporarily reduced to a 50mph limit (with average speed cameras throughout it) due to the road works converting it to a smart motorway, has actually improved traffic flow.

Although I agree that people should be encouraged to use cruise control. As the amount of times i'll cruise by someone going up hill only to be undertaken before I can safely pull in, as they crest the hill and start picking up speed going back down it is startling. (They just do not seem able to adjust to the road, and leave their foot in one place regardless of the speed it causes them to do)


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## AndyN01 (Feb 16, 2016)

The critical thing in all driving is space to allow time to react.

The problem with average speed cameras is that everyone seems to think it's OK to travel 2 metres behind the car in front because "we're all doing the same speed."

At that speed and distance if anything happens that makes the car in front hit the brakes you'll have a collision before you've really processed seeing the brake lights.

And even if you can react, where are you going to go? There's no space around you to use. There's someone else immediately behind you and some more vehicles next to you.

I'd be far happier if tailgaters" were targetted but that's nowhere as easy as do as taking a few pics, popping a Notice of Intended Prosecution in the post and collecting the money.

Andy.


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## great gonzo (Nov 4, 2010)

I don't no anyone or have every heard of any one getting a ticket from an average speed cameras????


Gonz.


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## Fentum (May 1, 2017)

shycho said:


> I think the 14+ miles of M3 which has been temporarily reduced to a 50mph limit (with average speed cameras throughout it) due to the road works converting it to a smart motorway, has actually improved traffic flow.


Is there anything "temporary" about the reduced limits on the M3:wall:? There has been some sort of restriction there since at least 2012/13.

Don't agree re flow - depends on the time of day but even outside rush hours, you get the speed limited lorry overtaking speed limited lorry syndrome widened to include all vehicles and it is a right royal PITA. I tend to take the M4 now and drop down to Basingstoke from Reading if I need to go from London to Andover or Salisbury etc.

Peter


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## Laurie.J.M (Jun 23, 2011)

Fentum said:


> *Is there anything "temporary" about the reduced limits on the M3:wall:? There has been some sort of restriction there since at least 2012/13. *
> 
> Don't agree re flow - depends on the time of day but even outside rush hours, you get the speed limited lorry overtaking speed limited lorry syndrome widened to include all vehicles and it is a right royal PITA. I tend to take the M4 now and drop down to Basingstoke from Reading if I need to go from London to Andover or Salisbury etc.
> 
> Peter


According to the internet the new smart section of the M3 will finally be finished in a couple of months, when done it'll have variable speed limits and they'll open up the hard shoulder as a 4th lane during peak hours. It will also have speed cameras every couple of miles just like the M25.


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## herder (Mar 22, 2017)

I got 3 points and £100 fine doing 53 in a 50mph average speed zone 
Since then i use the cruise control set to 48mph...it's the only time I ever use CC really.


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## staffordian (May 2, 2012)

TonyHill said:


> They're awful. There's a huge 17 mile stretch near Manchester and it causes big tailbacks. Also makes passing HGVs a pain, especially the foreign left hand drive ones, as you can be stuck in their blindspot for quite a while. I've seen many near misses!! :wall:


Surely one of the advantages of average speed cameras is that there is no problem accelerating above the set speed briefly to overtake something - as long as you are not nudging or exceeding the upper limit all the way through the section.


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## Rayaan (Jun 1, 2014)

staffordian said:


> Surely one of the advantages of average speed cameras is that there is no problem accelerating above the set speed briefly to overtake something - as long as you are not nudging or exceeding the upper limit all the way through the section.


But no one can keep a track of what speed they've reached and for what distance and then work it out in their head whilst keeping their eyes on the road.

TomTom have an average speed display which helps but if driving without a sat nav, it tends to make people overtake and then slow down 10mph under the limit to make it up


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## Rabidracoon28 (May 31, 2012)

great gonzo said:


> I don't no anyone or have every heard of any one getting a ticket from an average speed cameras????
> 
> Gonz.


£300,000 in fines in 7 weeks for speeding motorists on the 17 mile stretch of the M60 by 50mph average speed cameras


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## Rabidracoon28 (May 31, 2012)

Rayaan said:


> But no one can keep a track of what speed they've reached and for what distance and then work it out in their head whilst keeping their eyes on the road.
> 
> TomTom have an average speed display which helps but if driving without a sat nav, it tends to make people overtake and then slow down 10mph under the limit to make it up


I have the Road Angel Gem+ and that identifies the location of the average speed camera and then gives you your average speed between each camera


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## Derek Mc (Jun 27, 2006)

great gonzo said:


> I don't no anyone or have every heard of any one getting a ticket from an average speed cameras????
> 
> Gonz.


Interestingly enough I know that almost all cars under read on speed to the tune of 2mph, the ASC's are set and limit plus 10% to err on the side of legal safety, hence setting cruise at an indicated 54mph during the truck overtakes becomes the cruise control default for many and a set of 52mph ensures a legal 50mph dead,,,

However that is a digression, I agree with Gonz, I have not seen or heard of any mass speeding fines individual speeding fines ever, nothing! I am sure that there are loads but unlike the fixed roadside cameras, has anyone been done on this board?


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## wish wash (Aug 25, 2011)

Been 16000 people caught in the average camera 50 zone, on the A1 between leeming and Barton while they've been upgrading the motorway.


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## staffordian (May 2, 2012)

Rayaan said:


> But no one can keep a track of what speed they've reached and for what distance and then work it out in their head whilst keeping their eyes on the road.
> 
> TomTom have an average speed display which helps but if driving without a sat nav, it tends to make people overtake and then slow down 10mph under the limit to make it up


Agreed that lack of satnav or cruise control makes it a bit tricky.

I used the M6 in Staffordshire and Cheshire then the M62/M60 recently and most of the journey was through 50mph average speed cameras.

I set the speed limiter to 54 knowing my speedo is 10% optimistic at this speed and to be honest, most vehicles were going a similar speed, there wasn't much going significantly more or less. It was actualy quite a relaxing, if frustrating drive. Frustrating only because it seemed to take for ever to get where I was going, even if in truth the extra time taken was neither here nor there.

Knowing I was within the limit meant that when I wanted to overtake something, I could override the limiter for the time needed to pass safely, then switch it on again to maintain progress.

When I got the car, I didn't think the limiter was something I'd ever use, but I find I use it far more than the cruise control.


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## ollienoclue (Jan 30, 2017)

Speed cameras do not enhance road safety, it's that simple. How can it if half the time you are looking at your dials?


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## staffordian (May 2, 2012)

ollienoclue said:


> Speed cameras do not enhance road safety, it's that simple. How can it if half the time you are looking at your dials?


Not sure I accept that argument. You might as well say all speed limits should be abolished as they all require you to check you are within them.

An occasional glance at the speedo plus general awareness should be enough to keep within the limit most of the time, whether its enforced by a speed camera or just a sign at the side of the road.


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## shycho (Sep 7, 2010)

Fentum said:


> Is there anything "temporary" about the reduced limits on the M3:wall:? There has been some sort of restriction there since at least 2012/13.
> 
> Don't agree re flow - depends on the time of day but even outside rush hours, you get the speed limited lorry overtaking speed limited lorry syndrome widened to include all vehicles and it is a right royal PITA. I tend to take the M4 now and drop down to Basingstoke from Reading if I need to go from London to Andover or Salisbury etc.
> 
> Peter


I used to do J4 to J2 daily, and prior to the speed restrictions being introduced J4 would be at a stand still and once up to speed you'd then stop again for J3, where as since it's became 50mph I never really had to stop, and we all cruised along at between 40-50 watching lorries over taking lorries.

The best part was when I moved to Basingstoke and they had the contra flow lane from before J4a until past J4. a good 8-10 miles at 50mph without worrying about people trying to squeeze into your lane. Just stick the cruise control on and watch the distance between you and the car in front.

I assume once the "temporary" speed limits are removed while be stuck with the smart speed limits 24/7 as seems to be the case on the way into London from the M1.


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## ollienoclue (Jan 30, 2017)

staffordian said:


> Not sure I accept that argument. You might as well say all speed limits should be abolished as they all require you to check you are within them.
> 
> An occasional glance at the speedo plus general awareness should be enough to keep within the limit most of the time, whether its enforced by a speed camera or just a sign at the side of the road.


The standard of driving today in the UK is abysmal. I do a lot of miles, and have spent lots of hours behind a steering wheel or two. It is obvious to me that the number of accidents on our roads would not be much reduced if every vehicle was unable to exceed 40mph. Speed is a component in some accidents but not the primary cause in the majority.

People don't know how to overtake any longer, they are not observant, they do not drive defensively and they don't take account of the conditions or the actions of other drivers.

Speed cameras should be removed entirely except where they are used to protect (active) workforces in the road.

The police should be actively observing and monitoring traffic, and stopping people for a polite word, not just fining people or relying on cameras.


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## Leesey (Dec 29, 2011)

ollienoclue said:


> The standard of driving today in the UK is abysmal. I do a lot of miles, and have spent lots of hours behind a steering wheel or two. It is obvious to me that the number of accidents on our roads would not be much reduced if every vehicle was unable to exceed 40mph. Speed is a component in some accidents but not the primary cause in the majority.
> 
> People don't know how to overtake any longer, they are not observant, they do not drive defensively and they don't take account of the conditions or the actions of other drivers.
> 
> ...


I agree that in general the standard of driving has reduced however this may also be because people expect their cars to do so much for them now (radar cruise control) for example people expect the car to manage the distance and now slow them and speed them up as one example. I know of one person who tends to not use his feet for much just turns the cruise control on and sets his distance and if he needs to speed up etc he presses the buttons on his steering wheel to adjust his speed hoping the car will slo whim down etc.

the problem with the police monitoring all of the roads as well is there are not enough of them even the local policing teams have nearly gone and they are all response officers now they don't have the time to prevent crime through local knowledge like they used to do (from my experience) as they are all required to calls of 999 whether rightly or wrongly phoned in as a genuine 999.


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## DrEskimo (Jan 7, 2016)

ollienoclue said:


> The standard of driving today in the UK is abysmal. I do a lot of miles, and have spent lots of hours behind a steering wheel or two. It is obvious to me that the number of accidents on our roads would not be much reduced if every vehicle was unable to exceed 40mph. Speed is a component in some accidents but not the primary cause in the majority.
> 
> People don't know how to overtake any longer, they are not observant, they do not drive defensively and they don't take account of the conditions or the actions of other drivers.
> 
> ...


Do you have any statistics to back up any of your observations?

From what I've seen from the data, road accidents have declined dramatically over the last 50years along with a decline in road accident mortality.

On top of that, the U.K has some of the most impressive road safety statistics compared to most other countries in the world....

Are you sure you're not just getting grumpier....?


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## Fentum (May 1, 2017)

DrEskimo said:


> Do you have any statistics to back up any of your observations?
> 
> From what I've seen from the data, road accidents have declined dramatically over the last 50years along with a decline in road accident mortality.
> 
> ...


But they have hit a plateau coincident with the proliferation of speed cameras if I recall the statistics correctly.

Given that car design will affect most countries equally (USA apart) I think that what differentiates us is seriously good road design and vigorous enforcement of drink driving laws i.e. active policing, not policing by camera, as well as more stringent intervals on MOTs etc.

Peter


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## DrEskimo (Jan 7, 2016)

Fentum said:


> But they have hit a plateau coincident with the proliferation of speed cameras if I recall the statistics correctly.
> 
> Given that car design will affect most countries equally (USA apart) I think that what differentiates us is seriously good road design and vigorous enforcement of drink driving laws i.e. active policing, not policing by camera, as well as more stringent intervals on MOTs etc.
> 
> Peter


Dono mate. Not done any research into it.

Only paper I could find was this report by the RAC foundation in 2011 that showed that, on average, there was a decline of 27% of fatal and serious collisions at 551 camera sites over 9 areas. This accounted for regional declines in general (as well controlling for regression to the mean, that is, not artificially lowering high accident areas due to the regression analysis techniques).

However there were 9 sites that saw increases in accidents, to an extent where it could be hypothesised that the cameras have contributed to the increase.

Interesting results, and would like to read any more reports if anyone has any, as this is quite old. As above, I guess there is other benefits, such as traffic flow.

http://www.racfoundation.org/media-centre/speed-camera-transparency-data


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## Laurie.J.M (Jun 23, 2011)

shycho said:


> I used to do J4 to J2 daily, and prior to the speed restrictions being introduced J4 would be at a stand still and once up to speed you'd then stop again for J3, where as since it's became 50mph I never really had to stop, and we all cruised along at between 40-50 watching lorries over taking lorries.
> 
> The best part was when I moved to Basingstoke and they had the contra flow lane from before J4a until past J4. a good 8-10 miles at 50mph without worrying about people trying to squeeze into your lane. Just stick the cruise control on and watch the distance between you and the car in front.
> 
> *I assume once the "temporary" speed limits are removed while be stuck with the smart speed limits 24/7 as seems to be the case on the way into London from the M1*.


It's going to be exactly like the M1 between Watford and Milton Keynes. I used to do that stretch of motorway fairly regularly and on the whole the variable speed limits and opening up the hard shoulder as an extra lane works pretty well, just got to keep an eye on the speed as there's cameras everywhere.


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

ollienoclue said:


> Speed cameras do not enhance road safety, it's that simple. How can it if half the time you are looking at your dials?





ollienoclue said:


> The standard of driving today in the UK is abysmal. I do a lot of miles, and have spent lots of hours behind a steering wheel or two. It is obvious to me that the number of accidents on our roads would not be much reduced if every vehicle was unable to exceed 40mph. Speed is a component in some accidents but not the primary cause in the majority.
> 
> People don't know how to overtake any longer, they are not observant, they do not drive defensively and they don't take account of the conditions or the actions of other drivers.
> 
> ...


Surely any half decent driver should have the observational skills to judge their speed well enough that it only requires an occasional glance at the speedometer? Surely most modern cars now have cruise control anyway?

I regularly travel through areas of average speed cameras and the observation levels are pretty much 100%. It's very rare to see anyone speeding and it's usually the ones that don't understand how average speed cameras work, or the ones who know they won't be passing a second camera for the average to be calculated.

It is also obvious how much more civilised driving is in these areas. People hold their space in average speed camera areas and don't follow as closely. They clearly work.

Personally I think if people know there's no punishment for an offence they will carry on doing it. There needs to be the fear as most people wouldn't be deterred otherwise. They shouldn't really need to be told for most offences anyway.


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