# Bashing cars because of their country of origin



## Starbuck88 (Nov 12, 2013)

I will be honest and say a comment on another thread triggered this. It's not just that though, I see it ALL The time on different forums, I see it from people who don't even know about cars.

Is it time we actually stopped bashing new, exciting, really good cars because of where their parent company originates from?

I have owned so many different brand of cars from different countries. Italian, French, German, English, American, Japanese...

In my time of driving so far, the only cars that have never given me much grief and just do as they are intended...are the French ones. 

The worst cars and most expensive due to being so poor reliably and also the most boring to drive, have thus far on the whole been the German ones I've had. I'm not going around telling everyone constantly German cars are unreliable because I love all cars and I'd still happily own one. Reason being, I haven't ever owned say a proper AMG, RS4 or M5 or something, so I bet they're mental, so why tar them due to boring everyday cars?

Stereotyping a car based on it's country of origin is a bit pointless now. 

What do you think?


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## millns84 (Jul 5, 2009)

Nothing wrong with a bit of tribal warfare, which I think is essentially what it boils down to.

Whether or not there's any merit in such criticism is another question. Personally, the most reliable cars I've owned were French (Citroen), Italian (Fiat) and Japanese (Daihatsu)... and I've had issued with Ford, Kia and Jaguar. 

It's the luck of the draw to a certain extent but looking at reliability stats, there's some surprising brands quite high up.


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## PugIain (Jun 28, 2006)

Peugeots are rubbish what are you talking about??!

I've had four, but that's irrelevant....



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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

We bash people because of their country of origin too. It's just something people like to do to feel superior when they are usually wrong.


German cars have never been that great for reliability. Stats do show that certain brands are stronger than others. Some cars do fit into their stereotypes. 

We can't deal in facts. That'll reduce our chances at making insults at each other and the internet will be ruined. :lol:


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## Shiny (Apr 23, 2007)

This problem will only be resolved when everyone drives Japanese cars, then we will all be happy...


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## DrEskimo (Jan 7, 2016)

On a sort of related note, I've never got the rivalry between opposing brands.

I'm on my second Audi, but love a lot of BMWs..! If someone offered me a 435i over my S5 I would love to try it, yet some people on Audi and BMW forums think the very idea of even getting a lift in the other car is unfathomable....bit pathetic IMO!


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## robertdon777 (Nov 3, 2005)

Couldn't really care what make i drive.

Owned everything from

Jap
French
German
Swedish
British
Czech
Korean

Still need to own something Italian and American

TBH once you look past the badge, many components are shared anyway.... and most components are never made by the Manufacturer.


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## Soul boy 68 (Sep 8, 2013)

I am in no way a badge snob and don't really care where a car comes from, even Timbuktu for all I care. If a car is nicely styled practical and drives well then who cares. I have owned Fords, Honda's Toyota's Audi's and now BMW and they have all been good, my BMW is on another level purely because it's a sports car but it doesn't mean the other cars were rubbish, far from it. If I like a car that much I'll buy one, no matter who makes them.


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## DLGWRX02 (Apr 6, 2010)

This thread made me chuckle, up to recently my brother in law would not touch anything mechanical from the far east. He refused point blank for reasons that far out weigh my political knowledge to own any jJapanese, Korean vehicles, how ever he was pushed to the limited recently when his previous TWO american cars (300c then a Chevrolet 4x4) went belly up costing several thousands in repairs. He has since traded in the Chevy for a 14 plate Honda CR-V. Which he is in absolute love with now.lol


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## mac1459 (Aug 25, 2011)

I'm the same as SB, If it's the car i want then i buy it , i don't care what our people say, simples.


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## Exotica (Feb 27, 2006)

I've always said I'd never buy Korean i.e. Hyundai/ Kia as they eat Dogs for dinner. The other half bought a ix35 and it's great plus dogs taste nice too.


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## Mowbs (Nov 2, 2015)

I worked as a mechanic through the 90's (88 to 01) and back then you really could tell a lot about a car's reliability and how it drove by where it was manufactured. 

SAAB's and Volvos were solid, reliable tanks that would sail through MOT's even when they were 10 or 15 years old but were very uninspiring to drive. 

Ford and Vauxhall (the 'British' cars) were your run of the mill, always had the same issues from rotten inner sills on Fiesta's to excessive wear on Astra brake drums. You knew before you had a car on a ramp what would be wrong with it. Vauxhall brake flexi hoses perished, Mk3 Fiesta & Mk5 Escort Wishbone Bushes falling out. British Leyland / Rover whatever they were called, absolutely summed up British cars for me, left a puddle of oil wherever you parked them and virtually corroded in front of your eyes.

Peugeot brake pipes were corroded often by the first MOT, although they felt very light and handled quite well.

FIAT's had pathetic brakes and switches would fall off in your hand as you were checking lights and wipers.

Japanese cars were well engineered and reliable, I've never been a big fan of the Jap cars but you couldn't knock them. 

French / Italian were complete junk and I could never understand why anyone would buy them. Maybe less so with Peugeot (especially the diesels) but more Renault / FIAT / Lancia

The German cars were in a class above Ford / Vauxhall, they were much better engineered and nice to work on, almost like they'd taken into account someone might have to remove that component at some stage and made things accessible. They were also made of less corrosive metal than the Brits used. BMW's were awesome to drive (back in the E30 325 days) Audi's less so, and I was never a big fan of the 'feel' of VW's either.

I think things have changed a lot since then with regards to manufacturing and reliability and the margin between the very worst and the best is not as big as it used to be. I know Mercedes went downhill a lot since my day, and BMW's can have quite a lot of issues nowadays. 

I'd love to hear what anyone mechanicing these days thinks about that and what are the most reliable cars these days. I'd guess it's probably the Japanese now.


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## Christian6984 (Dec 20, 2007)

I am very surprised to say that my two clio's (mk2 and mk3) really gave no bother they were one or two minor bits but nothing major, my sister did have a mk2 Megane 1.6 which gave little bother up to 130k and got a friend who currently owns a Mk2 Megane 1.6 this is a year newer and has only 80k on and its a complete swine. My mum runs a 2002 C3 which again never seems to go wrong, 1.6 with over 110k on(wish it would break its a terrible car) but she drives so slow shes prob get double the miles out of a car i would.

Two surprises are the Fiats, Punto mk2 and new 500 both no major stuff to mention. 
Ford has always been my favourite brand, not perfect cars but dead easy to work on by and large unlike the french stuff which they seem to make stuff more awkward than not. 

A car im not certainly impressed with is my dads Golf 2006, less than 50k on and has a few issues that really left me unsure about volkswagen. 

A friend used to give me so much stick for french cars when i had the clio, I said your far superior Yaris is also made in France... shut him up :lol:


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## DrEskimo (Jan 7, 2016)

The problem is anecdotes are not evidence....for every one person that says X car was the most reliable thing ever, another will say it gave him nothing but grieve...

I appreciated the input Mowbs, who typically sees many more cars than I would.

In my limited motoring history of 4 cars over 10yrs, I have noticed when things have gone wrong due to cheap or poorly thought out components. For example on my first car, 03 Clio, it kept cutting out because the wire connection to the starter motor was poorly made. I had to fork out for a brand new one, which replaced the metal clip with a bolt. Clearly they recognised it was a design fault!

Then I had an Audi A5 2.0TFSI that went through 1lt of oil every 300miles...turned out to be a major design fault with the piston rings, which resulted in all Audi's with that engine having either replacement pistons, or an entire engine rebuild if damage was caused to the bores! Arguably the Germans have faired far far worse than the French, since the cost difference was £300 odd for the Renault, and upwards of £12k for the Audi (thankfully Audi finally admitted it was a wide fault and are fixing them for free now).

Bit of a luck of the draw, but I also think there may be some method in waiting for a iteration of a model thats right at the end of its cycle, in the hop most issues have been sorted out...


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## Christian6984 (Dec 20, 2007)

DrEskimo said:


> The problem is anecdotes are not evidence....for every one person that says X car was the most reliable thing ever, another will say it gave him nothing but grieve...
> 
> I appreciated the input Mowbs, who typically sees many more cars than I would.
> 
> ...


very true, i also had a 03 Clio, didnt have that problem only thing that went was oxygen sensor so it wouldnt pull about a mile after start up that went away after a few mins. But least the cost was reasonable. I remember the bonnet latch issue, was nervous for another Clio driver years later going down the motorway past me where the bonnet latch looked like it had been pulled :doublesho


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## wee man (Sep 29, 2016)

Started with Hillman went Morris 1100,1300 & Mini then seventeen Renault's 4,5, Megane then Diahatsu; Charade,Move,Terios(2) now Nissan Note.

So Japanese car made in Sunderland.

Worked on them all and most were a step up.
When they go well they are the best with each having its own faults. When they fail they are the worse in the world.
It depends what the car is used for most of mine they were transport to work and a carrier for fishing or photographic gear. Now family transport and taxi for grandchildren.

Why not have a mutter if nothing else it gives you something to do if the car has not broken down.

My main fault with modern cars is there is not much to tinker with even if like me you are now too old to lie out on the cold ground sorting them out and using that shed full of tools you spent years building up.

We even complain about the paint on our cars too hard too soft etc instead of just enjoying keeping it nice and shiny?
Wee Man


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## DrEskimo (Jan 7, 2016)

Christian6984 said:


> very true, i also had a 03 Clio, didnt have that problem only thing that went was oxygen sensor so it wouldnt pull about a mile after start up that went away after a few mins. But least the cost was reasonable. I remember the bonnet latch issue, was nervous for another Clio driver years later going down the motorway past me where the bonnet latch looked like it had been pulled :doublesho


Blimey I remember that now too! Had to have it recalled to replace the latch!

Was fun driving that until I had the fix.....:driver:


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## Guest (Jan 26, 2017)

My first car was a Renault Clio 1.2 16v 04 plate, It was good for the first year of ownership and then continuously had issues, so promised myself I would never buy any french car again.

I would however only ever touch a french car again should I be after a track toy.

I then went German and got a VW, i must admit since owning one I have been dragged into the hating everything Jap and anything non VAG...but I'd like to attend some French / Jap and various other shows to see what it's about, maybe this will stop me from being narrow minded.


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## Brian1612 (Apr 5, 2015)

Nice reading seeing quite a few people here bucking the trend on Fiat's apparently terrible reliability . I am on my 4th Fiat/Abarth and much the same, little to no issues across the board. Times have changed but the same old perceptions on brand snobbery etc. still exist in that German must be the best and Italian/French are unreliable crap. 

The latest JD power survey made for good reading. Fiat beat all but VW when it came to the German brands and finished above the industry average for reliability.


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## Mugwump (Feb 17, 2008)

Think it's right - there isn't that much to choose between any brand, or country of origin of the parent company nowadays, and I think an awful lot of people have a very big blind spot when it comes to reliability issues with some brands which they regard as 'superior'.

Most of the mechanical and electrical components are bought-in, and the same part can be found in several different makes and countries of manufacture. On top of which, the country from which the brand hails is often not the same as the country where some of their cars are actually manufactured - there are a number of models in certain manufacturers ranges which are not only manufactured in a different country from the home of the brand, but which are manufactured by a completely different company under contract (look at the cars which have been built by Magna-Steyr in Hungary for the likes of BMW/MINI and Audi; or the ones built by Valmet in Finland on behalf of VAG/Porsche).

I have mainly only had experience of British built cars (Metro, Rover 200 band 600, and MG ZR, and I have to say that I have had very little trouble with any of them, in stark contrast to the 'popular' conceptions of them) in spite of having run the Rover 200 and one MG ZR to over 100000 miles before changing them. We've also had several Peugeots in the immediate family; a 205 - scrapped after 15 years due to a second headgasket failure (not a uniquely Rover problem), a 307, and a 2001 model 106 which is still going with an elderly relative having had very little in the way of unexpected repairs and with very little rust (even though it is rarely washed, and never waxed). So much for some peoples assertion that they are no good then!

All cars are pretty well engineered and reliable nowadays compared with the bad old days of the 1970s when all of the run-of-the-mill brands were pretty unreliable and rusted at the speed of light (yes, even VW). Back then it was really only Volvo which was solid, reliable and long lasting (the downside being that the solidity and weight meant they were very heavy on fuel). Even so, a lot of cars that get universally panned nowadays, were not actually so bad when compared with what their competitors had on offer. And if you had ever had direct experience of a 1970s Moskvitch (sold in the UK in the early to mid '70s) everything else seemed very high quality and reliable


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

Brian1612 said:


> Nice reading seeing quite a few people here bucking the trend on Fiat's apparently terrible reliability . I am on my 4th Fiat/Abarth and much the same, little to no issues across the board. Times have changed but the same old perceptions on brand snobbery etc. still exist in that German must be the best and Italian/French are unreliable crap.
> 
> The latest JD power survey made for good reading. Fiat beat all but VW when it came to the German brands and finished above the industry average for reliability.


The JD power survey is very flawed as only 13,000 people took part. That's not enough to get a fair balance considering just how many different cars and models there is. The other issues is that most people that fill out surveys do as they want a moan. Most people couldn't even tell you what the JD power survey is, or where to find it.

They didn't even rate Mitsibishi as they didn't get enough responses.

Also I find that when you buy a "premium" car expectations rise. People are more likely to complain about things. There's also the people who are more concerned about their cars. Some people miss defects and don't bother with rattles and things.

The other issue is that most of the small town cars will do little mileage, but all the rep mobiles will be doing huge miles. None of this is factored into the result. Also a lot of the survey is based on opinion..

Reading the report is says mechanical defects are falling. It also claims that infotainment systems and Bluetooth issues that's shooting up. Is it fair to compare and all singing all dancing car with far more equipment to go wrong against a little town car with basic functions?

On forums I keep reading people say they've never had a single issue with their car. That report says that the winners Skoda had 66 faults per 100 cars. Land Rover had 197 faults per 100 cars.

Looking at what they factor in, they don't include everything.

The study, now in its second year, measures problems experienced during the past 12 months by original owners of vehicles in the UK after 12-36 months of ownership. J.D. Power examined 177 problem symptoms across eight categories: engine and transmission; vehicle exterior; driving experience; features/controls/displays (FCD); audio/communication/entertainment/navigation (ACEN); seats; heating, ventilation and cooling (HVAC); and vehicle interior. Overall dependability is determined by the number of problems experienced per 100 vehicles (PP100), with a lower score reflecting higher quality.

Why not suspension failures? Would Fiat score well if they factored that in?

There was a full MOT result disclosure a couple of years ago. These results show the German and Japanese brands are more likely to pass their MOT. Peugeot, Citroën and Fiat all score badly on MOT tests.

The results break down every single failure. The results do back up stereotypes sadly.


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## Mowbs (Nov 2, 2015)

Kerr said:


> There was a full MOT result disclosure a couple of years ago. These results show the German and Japanese brands are more likely to pass their MOT. Peugeot, Citroën and Fiat all score badly on MOT tests.
> 
> The results break down every single failure. The results do back up stereotypes sadly.


That was quite an interesting read although it highlights the spectrum of what someone might judge reliability on.

The fact that Land / Range Rover had a high pass rate for their first MOT shows that it doesn't tell the whole reliability story. I'd be interested to know how many of them had already been back to JLR for air suspension compressors, ARC arms, ECU issues etc.

I personally rate the reliability of a car on how often parts which are not usual wear and tear items fail and issues arise when it is older, more towards the end of it's life. That's when you can see the difference between a JLR and something more 'reliable' - you may have detected I have a strong opinion on the reliability of Jaguar Land Rover - my father has owned a lot of those over the years but still goes back for another when they fall to pieces. I think it's similar to forgetting the pain and expense of childbirth when he sees another shiny one in a showroom and it could also be something to do with the fact it's not him crawling around on the ground fixing the things.

I think you need to be looking at older cars to gauge the 'reliability' but if you're buying a new car and replacing it in 3 or 4 years it's going to be difficult to fairly judge it.

For me I still rate the Japanese manufacturers for reliability and the German's for combined reliability, driveability and desirability - It'll take a lot to change my opinions on JLR / Vauxhall and the French / Italians.


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## Mugwump (Feb 17, 2008)

Kerr said:


> There was a full MOT result disclosure a couple of years ago. ......... The results do back up stereotypes sadly.


Judging from MOT failures is flawed to start with - MOT test failure has as much to do with lack of proper maintenance as it does with inherent faults with a particular make of vehicle.

It is inevitable that the cheaper or volume brands will be owned/driven by people who are more likely to view a car simply as a means to get from A to B, and will probably have less knowledge of it and less interest in it (and therefore less concern about maintaining it) than someone who owns what would be regarded as a 'premium' brand (who are likely to to take care of it, have it regularly serviced and have any apparent issues sorted out). Those who have little interest in their car will often submit it for an MOT test without any prior inspection or rectification (you only have to look at the number of cars that fail for items that should be easily spotted by the driver, and easily rectified too - things like blown bulbs, worn tyres, ineffective wiper blades or blocked window washers.

There is also the common practice of quite a lot of garages that do both servicing and MOT testing to take in a car for its annual service and MOT test, and put it through the test to start with, and then rectify the faults found during the course of doing the servicing afterwards, instead of going over it and rectifying the faults before carrying out the MOT test - this was fine years ago when they could break off testing that car and repair the fault before issuing an MOT certificate, but now the test is all on computer, it means if such a vehicle has failure faults, it has to be logged off the system to allow the next vehicle MOT test to begin, so it has to be logged as a fail, and then the failure items retested later in the day so that a 'Pass' can be recorded.

Regardless of some peoples personal, if skewed viewpoint, if you take any modern make of vehicle of the same size/type, and subject them all to identical usage and manufacturer recommended maintenance, there is likely to be little to choose between any of them reliability wise.

However, it only takes half a dozen people to shout loudly about the same fault on a particular make and model for most people to take up the opinion that "they all do that" (despite the fact the the number of publicised failures is probably less than 0.1% of the number of that model that are out there).

In my experience, the people most commonly found suffering from "_they all do that mate"_ syndrome, are garage mechanics.


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

Mugwump said:


> Judging from MOT failures is flawed to start with - MOT test failure has as much to do with lack of proper maintenance as it does with inherent faults with a particular make of vehicle.
> 
> It is inevitable that the cheaper or volume brands will be owned/driven by people who are more likely to view a car simply as a means to get from A to B, and will probably have less knowledge of it and less interest in it (and therefore less concern about maintaining it) than someone who owns what would be regarded as a 'premium' brand (who are likely to to take care of it, have it regularly serviced and have any apparent issues sorted out). Those who have little interest in their car will often submit it for an MOT test without any prior inspection or rectification (you only have to look at the number of cars that fail for items that should be easily spotted by the driver, and easily rectified too - things like blown bulbs, worn tyres, ineffective wiper blades or blocked window washers.
> 
> ...


Many cars these days go 2 years and 20,000+ miles between services. At 3 years old many cars only require 1 service. Most people won't be anywhere needing new brake pads and the only routine parts that should/maybe need changed after 3 years is tyres. There is very little maintenence required in the first 3 years. Turning up with bald tyres and obvious errors is inexcusable for a driver, however they break down every failure and patterns do develop.

Just glancing at a few of the Fiats going through their first MOT I can see things like they are 22x more likely than average to fail due to wheel bearings, 24x more likely for steering racks, 20x for suspension components and 15x more likely for brake pipes.

Do you consider those failures due to lack of maintenence, or does it highlight inferior build quality with just how much badly they are than the average?


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## PugIain (Jun 28, 2006)

Failure of a part is probably down to the part manufacturer.
I had a part fail on my 508, a xenon headlamp bulb. When I took it out it said Osram. Osram are German 

Sent from my Vodafone Smart ultra 6 using Tapatalk


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## Brian1612 (Apr 5, 2015)

Kerr said:


> The JD power survey is very flawed as only 13,000 people took part. That's not enough to get a fair balance considering just how many different cars and models there is. The other issues is that most people that fill out surveys do as they want a moan. Most people couldn't even tell you what the JD power survey is, or where to find it.
> 
> They didn't even rate Mitsibishi as they didn't get enough responses.
> 
> ...


Go through the years of JD and you see a wide array of results. Might not be the most accurate but it is definitely fair when you compare them solely year on year. You would find Fiat lingering near the bottom the last few years, this year they have leap frogged right up to the top half. That says all I need to know with regards to their reliability as far as I am concerned. As for your comment about expectations I would disagree completely. I would have the same expectations of a car fault wise be it a Dacia or a Bentley, that statement on different expectations is rubbish as far as I am concerned. Again favouritism to a car with more gadgets. It doesn't matter whether a car has more or less infotainment type options. If they are failing so much that it pushes a manufacturer down a reliability table to the near bottom maybe they should consider reducing all the daft features they are offering. As for the little town car not having much gadgets, you haven't saw one recently have you?

Touch screen + Dab, Digital TFT dash display, Sports mode, proper Boost gauge, G meter, tyre monitoring system, parking sensors, brake wear indicators... It has as much kit as you would expect in a decent spec'd German car, if not more.

JD is a perfectly fair representation year on year using it. All the manufacturers have the same test factors etc. If Fiat did well and 3 of the 4 German brands did terrible following the same tests, I'd say that least represents something.

MOTs are irrelevant as they all come down to the owners also. It isn't a generic test but purely resultant on how well an owner takes care of their car. I have always looked after mines which explains why my Fiats/Abarths have gave me no headaches.


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

Brian1612 said:


> Go through the years of JD and you see a wide array of results. Might not be the most accurate but it is definitely fair when you compare them solely year on year. You would find Fiat lingering near the bottom the last few years, this year they have leap frogged right up to the top half. That says all I need to know with regards to their reliability as far as I am concerned. As for your comment about expectations I would disagree completely. I would have the same expectations of a car fault wise be it a Dacia or a Bentley, that statement on different expectations is rubbish as far as I am concerned.
> 
> JD is a perfectly fair representation year on year using it. All the manufacturers have the same test factors etc. If Fiat did well and 3 of the 4 German brands did terrible following the same tests, I'd say that least represents something.
> 
> MOTs are irrelevant as they all come down to the owners also. It isn't a generic test but purely resultant on how well an owner takes care of their car. I have always looked after mines which explains why my Fiats/Abarths have gave me no headaches.


The JD Power survey is down to the owners. It's based on opinion for many categories and is really a customer satisfaction guide. It's not a factual reliability study. JD power supply all these numbers, but never want to tell people what the issues are. The only thing they highlight is the increase in infotainment and Bluetooth issues. A lot of these errors are often user error.

There has been around 7.5m new car sales in the last 3 years. Only 16,000 people took part in the JD power survey and that's 0.2% of the people entitled to take part. Can 0.2% be considered a fair reflection of the other 99.8%? I'd say with such a tiny amount of people taking part it's very easy to have random and false results.

Reading some of the articles about the survey, the highest complaint in the survey since it started is wind noise. That's not an actual defect as such, but counts as one. Who defines what's excessive wind noise? Nobody, it's purely down to the opinion of the person ticking the boxes.

Would you expect a Dacia to cruise along in silence like a Bentley, or would you expect and make allowances for a Dacia to be quite noisy at high speed?

The MOT test is far more reliable. Every car has to sit the test rather than just a handful of people. Cars are assessed by a professional and to the same standard. It's not scoring cars for things that are a matter of opinion, it's checking the car for roadworthiness and for many issues that are purely build quality.

Without a shadow of doubt people expect more from "premium" brands. The more expensive the item the better the quality of the product should be. That's not just the case for cars. I'm sorry but saying your expectations of a Dacia would be the same as a Bentley just isn't applied by other people. If someone paid £250,000 for a Bentley and it had the fit and finish of a Dacia they would go nuts.

I've lost count of how many times on the BMW 1 series forum or the Mercedes A class forum people complain about build quality. Complaints start along the lines that they don't expect rattles and issues from premium brands. What they fail to notice is their "premium" 1 series or A class doesn't cost much more than cars they see as inferior and accept that those cars have these issues. People pay A class money and expect S class standards because that badge on the bonnet.

The reason so many people buy premium badged cars is their perception of the additional quality.

They also expect customer care to be superior too which is totally irrelevant to the quality of the car.


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

Just looking at the JD Power results and see the Vauxhall Mokka finished 3rd in its category. 

That car is horrifically bad. The build quality is terrible, the engine was terrible and could only manage 28mpg at motorway speed as it was so far out of its depth. The infotainment interface was awful and the sat nav was useless. It sent us to the wrong place. The correct Street, but ignored the postcode which differentiated two streets of the same name in Stockport.

It's by far the worst modern car I've driven. Reading reviews like What Car and they rate it as a 2 star car. 

How on earth can it score so highly in an owner's satisfaction survey? Would it be right to stereotype owners too? :lol:


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## muzzer (Feb 13, 2011)

Of all the cars i've owned only two have been prohibitively expensive to maintain, both German. The perceived British cars (xr 2 and a cav sri130 ) were ok, the only fiat i owned was a great car but i do seem to keep going back to Vive La France! when it comes to motorised transport


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## Cookies (Dec 10, 2008)

I've had 10 French cars over the years and all but one (a Peugeot 407) have been literally faultless. I've had 4 VAG cars, and three of those went belly up (fuel pump, turbo, air con compressor, immobiliser, ecu.....) all were less than 4 years old. My last Seat Exeo was perfect though. 

I've owned three British cars too; two rovers which were very reliable, and a Ford cmax 1.6 diesel - loved it. So comfortable and easily run. 

I definitely don't buy into the VAG hype about their cars being supremely reliable, given my personal experience, however they're very well put together. 

Just my tuppence. 

Cooks 

Sent from my D6603


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## muzzer (Feb 13, 2011)

I think i'm on number 7 of the french variety and my all time favourite will always be the ur quattro that i owned but by far the most reliable car i have owned was there 172 Clio that i notched up 120k miles on. The only issues were when some fool tail ended me on the M62 and the cost of the cam belt changes. Otherwise, faultless.
Yet my Mk1 XR2 was an absolute nightmare but it was nearly 20 yrs old by the time i got it, so who knows.


However, i always seem to end up with french cars and my issue with the current one isn't due to it's country of origin, if it had been an RS focus, s3 etc i still would think the same of it.


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## Starbuck88 (Nov 12, 2013)

The survey may mention about suspension faults etc but I know for a fact that where you live would also be a factor in how reliable it would be.

For example, where I live there aren't many speed bumps at all and the ones that are, you can position the car so that you barely feel them. Needless to say, at my time in the car industry snapped springs/suspension issues etc were never any big deal.

Up country where most of my family live. Speed bumps are everywhere and they are huge, square and batter the hell out suspension components, I also know these people treat these harsh speed bumps with respect also.

Whether you had an Audi A4 vs a Peugeot 208 or something, the scenario of your daily life, the way you drive and treat the car would be entirely different to the next person.

So I do understand the point of servicing a car/looking after a car may help certain things, there are other things that can't be helped and that should maybe where surveys go.

Now you get into the argument, if an A4 was driven by the same person in the exact same manor as my example above in a 208 or something..... You'd hope/expect the 208 would fail first, however what I know of...it doesn't seem to be the case.

I wonder if there could be a way of buying these cars, disassembling them and independently testing the longevity of individual components in an 'optimium' environment. Now THAT would give the manufacturers a kick up the bum.


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## Cookies (Dec 10, 2008)

That's a good point chum. I had 2 Peugeot 406s in a row, put around 200k on them, never had any issues. I then bought a pre reg Peugeot 407 and it needed a new clutch at 7000 miles. Another at 18000, and a third at 27000. The dealership said it was obviously my driving style, and we're trying to change me for the replacements. I provided them with the reg numbers of my two previous 406s, and the fact that neither had needed anything more than routine maintenance in the 200k miles I had them. They soon backed down at that point. However, if I hadn't been able to do that, or indeed hardcase from another manufacturer, I'd have had to have paid for the clutch. I knew it was a Flywheel issue, they knew too, but wouldn't replace it. So I sold it as soon as it hit 3 years old. 

It'd def be great to see cars stripped, and have all parts inspected to the nth degree. 

Cooks 

Cooks

Sent from my D6603


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## Harry_p (Mar 18, 2015)

People tend to stick to what has been good to them.

My dad had alfas for years, all through their worst period in the 80s, but loved them. He bought a '91 BMW e30 in about '94 / 95 and had no end of trouble with it, had it broken into and the radio nicked, got rear ended in traffic causing several thousand pounds worth of damage, had the cambelt snap needing a full head rebuild, had a clutch judder when hot which no one ever got to the bottom of and seemed to chew rear wheel bearings for fun. He went back to alfas right up until 2-3 years ago when he bought an Audi.

A couple of decades on and the mrs and I currently own four bmws between us! Our cars never see a garage other than for the mot, so as a Diyer I massively appreciate the simple solid engineering, the quality of fasteners and the logical construction, which combined with the performance / economy balance and fun rwd handling seem to have made them our default choice.

My daily driver e36 m3 now has 264,000 miles on the clock, feels as strong as ever, doesn't seem to burn any oil. I've no idea how long it will keep going for but I have no plans to replace it.

I often say I'd never own a French car. It's not because they're French it's because there's nothing in the current Peugeot / Citroen / Renault range which I have any desire to own. I don't really like front wheel drive and I don't like the lightweight tinny feel despite the fact that the underlying engineering is probably as solid as anything else out there. It doesn't help that if you ever spot a car with the rear lights doing an impression of a disco it's more than likely a mid 90s Renault with a wiring issue.


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## PugIain (Jun 28, 2006)

Cookies said:


> That's a good point chum. I had 2 Peugeot 406s in a row, put around 200k on them, never had any issues. I then bought a pre reg Peugeot 407 and it needed a new clutch at 7000 miles. Another at 18000, and a third at 27000.


Wow not good. My first 407 needed a new one at about 60k, my second 407 was fine at about 60k when I traded it in.
My Dads had to have one done at about 40ish though. All 3 2.0 hdi. All done under warranty too thankfully.

Although its not just 407s, I know of a Mondeo and a Passat that had the dmf replaced at fairly low miles too.

I had a 406 too, a 1.8 petrol. Nothing broke on that thing. Until I sold it to my brother lol. It is still knocking about though, that must be 140/150 k I reckon.

Sent from my Vodafone Smart ultra 6 using Tapatalk


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## Brian1612 (Apr 5, 2015)

Kerr said:


> The JD Power survey is down to the owners. It's based on opinion for many categories and is really a customer satisfaction guide. It's not a factual reliability study. JD power supply all these numbers, but never want to tell people what the issues are. The only thing they highlight is the increase in infotainment and Bluetooth issues. A lot of these errors are often user error.
> 
> There has been around 7.5m new car sales in the last 3 years. Only 16,000 people took part in the JD power survey and that's 0.2% of the people entitled to take part. Can 0.2% be considered a fair reflection of the other 99.8%? I'd say with such a tiny amount of people taking part it's very easy to have random and false results.
> 
> ...


Most of what your saying I can't disagree with kerr but your point on the Dacia and Bentley is completely wrong. We are talking about reliability of a vehicle. Your confusing that with perceived quality when you mention fit and finish which we both know doesn't help keep your car issue free. That has nothing to do with reliability as the german brands have proved. They ooze quality from a fit and finish point of view but mechanically as a machine I personally think they aren't nearly as good as people like to think they are. A lot of surverys back this point up regularly. My little abarth has some common issues, failure of the door handles and weak top mounts but that's it as far as common faults go. The engine is a 1.4 t-jet which hasn't changed in years, any teething issues when it was first released as an engine have been addressed and it maintained properly the engine itself is bullet proof as it's so simple.

Electronically the Italians are notorious for being poor. Worst I ever had was my punto abarth turning all it's lights on. Pulled over, ignition off and on and that was it, never happened again. I will stress again though any modern car if properlg maintained as per manufacturer instructions should be very reliable. My abarth has an 8k miles or 12 month service period with more thorough services at specific miles. I see cars now claiming 20k intervals and laugh, I reckon this is part of why the germans are falling short on reliability claiming unrealistic service intervals like that.


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

Brian1612 said:


> Most of what your saying I can't disagree with kerr but your point on the Dacia and Bentley is completely wrong. We are talking about reliability of a vehicle. Your confusing that with perceived quality when you mention fit and finish which we both know doesn't help keep your car issue free. That has nothing to do with reliability as the german brands have proved. They ooze quality from a fit and finish point of view but mechanically as a machine I personally think they aren't nearly as good as people like to think they are. A lot of surverys back this point up regularly. My little abarth has some common issues, failure of the door handles and weak top mounts but that's it as far as common faults go. The engine is a 1.4 t-jet which hasn't changed in years, any teething issues when it was first released as an engine have been addressed and it maintained properly the engine itself is bullet proof as it's so simple.
> 
> Electronically the Italians are notorious for being poor. Worst I ever had was my punto abarth turning all it's lights on. Pulled over, ignition off and on and that was it, never happened again. I will stress again though any modern car if properlg maintained as per manufacturer instructions should be very reliable. My abarth has an 8k miles or 12 month service period with more thorough services at specific miles. I see cars now claiming 20k intervals and laugh, I reckon this is part of why the germans are falling short on reliability claiming unrealistic service intervals like that.


The JD Power survey isn't a reliability survey though. They don't even call it a reliability study. A lot of the scoring is done as a matter of opinion. I remember the result the last time scored the Skoda Yeti higher for handling than a Porsche 911.

The three top defects are 1) wind noise 2) unknown noises under the car 3) noisy brakes

The top complaint for design issues is voice commands. So cars that don't have voice commands will instantly be an advantage.

Here is a decent piece about the survey taken from a US site.

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&s...ghRMA4&usg=AFQjCNGQO4i2jI_GuiePBVsP1-VCekbpXg

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&s...ggxMAM&usg=AFQjCNHHM35PjZTosscOSjy7_FGasWtLVQ

People failing to understand how to use the infotainment systems counts as bad as a huge failure.

There's nothing wrong with 20,000 mile service intervals. Some of the lazy V8s have 50,000 mile service intervals. If you drive the car hard, or constant short trips, the service intervals shorten. BMW are renowned for their engines doing huge miles. For the cars suffering issues, with engine related parts, they are nothing to do with routine servicing.

The reason certain cars need more oil changes is they are often running high levels of turbo boost pressure.

Lack of mechanical sympathy will do more harm to a car than 20,000 service intervals.

If I had a £1 for every time someone rolled out the bulletproof line.


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

On Autotrader there is 623 cars that have done over 200,000 miles.

85 Merc
85 VW
69 BMW
62 Audi

8 Citroën 
2 Fiat and one of them is an error as it's only 20,000.
1 Renault


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## Brian1612 (Apr 5, 2015)

Again that doesn’t prove anything kerr. People buy these dirty diesel german cars as mileage munchers, only natural there will be tons of them with excessive miles. I can easily respond by my own first hand experience working in a garage for 2 years. I'd say 80% of the cars I worked on were german but then, how many more german cars are on the road that are older and doing huge amounts of miles compared to others? Only natural I would get more in to work on. Just another way to look at what your saying from a negative point of view but it doesn't prove anything.

Again you are also missing my point with regards to the JD survery. All I am saying is using that soley as a representative of reliability you can see the german brands have all plummeted down the list and other brands such as fiat have climbed the ladder. I am not saying its an accurate representation of reliability but hilariously nobody questioned these surverys a few years ago when the germans were all in the top 10. It at least proves all isn't as it seems with regards to the germans and this false idea of premium, quality products as they have progressively performed worse in this survey over the years.

My opinion comes from experience first hand. I had 1 german car in a VW Polo and that gave me more hassle than the following 4 fiats, infact a huge amount more. My sister is now getting more hassle from her almost new audi tt. My little shopping trolley with 200 bhp is perfectly fine and on that basis that is where my opiniom comes from. If and when I start getting grief from fiat/abarth/italian brands then I will look into another manufacturer but for now, in my eyes they are performing perfectly.

It's just simple logic with regards to the t-jet engine. A new engine won't be anywhere near as reliable as an engine thats been in production for many years. Perfect example is the fiat 1.4 turbo t-jet and the recent multi-air alternative which has had continuous issues and teething problems since its introduction. Things have now improved with the multi air II engine.


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## cheekymonkey (Mar 15, 2008)

Brian1612 said:


> Again that doesn't prove anything kerr. People buy these dirty diesel german cars as mileage munchers, only natural there will be tons of them with excessive miles. I can easily respond by my own first hand experience working in a garage for 2 years. I'd say 80% of the cars I worked on were german but then, how many more german cars are on the road that are older and doing huge amounts of miles compared to others? Only natural I would get more in to work on. Just another way to look at what your saying from a negative point of view but it doesn't prove anything.
> 
> Again you are also missing my point with regards to the JD survery. All I am saying is using that soley as a representative of reliability you can see the german brands have all plummeted down the list and other brands such as fiat have climbed the ladder. I am not saying its an accurate representation of reliability but hilariously nobody questioned these surverys a few years ago when the germans were all in the top 10. It at least proves all isn't as it seems with regards to the germans and this false idea of premium, quality products as they have progressively performed worse in this survey over the years.
> 
> ...


so you had 1 German car and had problems with it, so all German cars are bad :wall:


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

Brian1612 said:


> Again that doesn't prove anything kerr. People buy these dirty diesel german cars as mileage munchers, only natural there will be tons of them with excessive miles. I can easily respond by my own first hand experience working in a garage for 2 years. I'd say 80% of the cars I worked on were german but then, how many more german cars are on the road that are older and doing huge amounts of miles compared to others? Only natural I would get more in to work on. Just another way to look at what your saying from a negative point of view but it doesn't prove anything.
> 
> Again you are also missing my point with regards to the JD survery. All I am saying is using that soley as a representative of reliability you can see the german brands have all plummeted down the list and other brands such as fiat have climbed the ladder. I am not saying its an accurate representation of reliability but hilariously nobody questioned these surverys a few years ago when the germans were all in the top 10. It at least proves all isn't as it seems with regards to the germans and this false idea of premium, quality products as they have progressively performed worse in this survey over the years.
> 
> ...


Do remember that although VW were specifically pinpointed for the dieselgate scandal, nearly everyone else failed the dirty diesel challenge.

I've never once in my life claimed German cars are the pinnacle of reliability. More often than not I highlight that they aren't the best. My recommendation for reliability is always the Japanese and Honda specifically. The Japanese just have this touch of making things work, although they just lack character.

So certain brands have no real proof of managing huge mileage and you think that means nothing?

The MOT stats show that certain brands have a considerably poorer record of passing MOTs, even though they don't cover the same mileage, and you don't want to accept that.

Many people run with the assumption that all American cars are crap. In their JD survey, with far more people taking part, Fiat finished dead last in their last year's vote.

Of course if there is more German cars doing far more miles you are going to see more issues. Isn't that kind of predictable?

The other issue you have is many of the German cars all pump out more power, all have bigger engines, more tech and generally more things to go wrong. If other manufacturers had 200+bhp cars as their mainstream cars then you would probably see more issues.

As you say your little Fiat needs pitiful service intervals in an attempt to retain reliability. I wouldn't buy a car that needed two services per year.

The JD Power survey is a waste of space. Only 0.2% of people take part to start with and it's a matter of opinion. You don't need to prove the information you fill in is factual.

Cars are scored down for dependability as owners have failed to understand how to use functions. There is no error in many of these cases, but they score as one.

The German cars have never been at the top of these surveys as far back as I can remember. Nobody mentions these surveys as they don't give a ****. The only people that care about the results are the people that are winning or doing better than they anticipated.

I'll use The Grand Tour as an example. Everyone on the internet is moaning that the series has been poor. However if you look at the IMDB database the show is ranked with the very best TV or film ever. The only people that keep rolling out the IMDB score and filling in the scores are The Grand Tour fans.

Even then The Grand Tour has 30,000 votes, Fiat would have had a few hundred in the JD power survey.

I love my cars and have owned plenty over the years. I've never once felt the need to fill in a JD Power survey as I think it's a pointless exercise. Clearly with the participation the majority of people thing the same. 0.2% just isn't a fair reflection.

Tripadvisor is another fraud review/survey site. Just look how many reviews are fake or by people that don't know any better.


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

There is also other reliability surveys kicked out. One ruled the other year the the Audi RS6 was the most unreliable car and the Kia Picanto was the best. 

When they were making up the results they had cost to repair as one of their main issues. 

Obviously if a £80,000 car has an issue it's going to cost a lot more than a £8000 car for the same issue.

It just amazes me that so many of these car surveys are done with systems and people that don't even understand the obvious.


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## Caledoniandream (Oct 9, 2009)

When cars where build in the countries of origin, there was more reflection of workmanship and quality.
Nowadays cars are build anywhere.
Fiats are build in Poland, Italy and South America.
Vauxhalls are build in Belgium and Germany.
Mercedes are build anywhere in the world including South America.
PSA and Renault build in east Europe 
VAG are build anywhere, a lot,in Eastern Europe, including Russia, Brazil and Mexico
Fords are build anywhere, Spain, Germany, Belgium, India, Mexico, USA.
BMW are build in Eastern Europe, and the USA etc. etc. 

Even the Japanese build anywhere in the world.

Years ago there was certainly a quality issue with certain countries, if you ever worked on the old Peugeot (203, 204, 504, 304, 305) than you still can feel the pain of ridiculous design and patchy quality (I still feel that pain 40 years on) 
But so where the Simca / Talbot offerings.
The Brits where a leaking engine was a standard feature.
The Italians with good engines but very bad steel (anybody remember the Alfasud????
The Americans with ridiculous wiring and ridiculous panel gaps. 

The Germans where standing with head and shoulders above all the rest in quality and design. 
Easy to work on, build to last, and made wit the German grundlichkeit. 
Than the quality of the Japanese was putting expectations to a much higher level 

If you look around at the offerings nowadays, there is a more level playing field. 
Quality of the main Germans marks in not what it used to be, never was thinking I would see Mercedes rusting before they where 5 years old.
Panel gaps on BMW are not always perfect, interiors are not as hard wearing as they used to be.
Opel / Vauxhall offerings are not as timeless as they use to be, and look old in only a few years.
The French still have their wiring issues, and funny designs to change headlamps bulbs.
The Italians still have design over functionality, ever tried on a twin air to dip the oil? 
Americans are still 20 years behind in quality and design.
The Koreans have come a long way in quality and design
The Japs are still uninspiring but the Japanese build version are of sublime quality.

So yes there is still a reason to dislike some cars, but do you know which country your car was build? 
Where was it designed?
And on top of that, is it the manufacturer own engine, or is it bought in?


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## Brian1612 (Apr 5, 2015)

Mines was built in Poland, is an Italian engine and believe it was Italian designed. Anyway I am done with this debate, we both have our own differing opinions Kerr. All I will say is what I have said previously. As you pointed out already not all cars will be used for high mileage. On the whole Fiats range isn't for that purpose but that isn't to say the engine won't do it. 

Obviously with a 1.4L Turbo running 200bhp it will require proper maintenance as you also earlier pointed out high boosting engines require such a maintenance schedule. You seem to like arguing my points for me Kerr lol. 

This won't go anywhere so we will agree to disaqree. At the end of the day I have my own personal experience and that is where my opinions come from. Thus far my little fiats/abarths have embarrassed the only german car I have owned. I can't argue that Japanese are the way to go for reliability but they are so dull and characterless as you pointed out I simply couldn't own one. 

Italians have this down to a tee making their cars soulful and fun and for me, it is much more important to have a car that makes me happy every time I drive it than something boring that will get me from A to B. Just my opinion again and people look for different requirements in cars. If it makes me smile it's a great car.


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