# Copper slip on wheel bolts?



## alan_mcc (Oct 28, 2008)

Finally recieved the longer wheel bolts to fit my alloys, should I smear a small amount of copper slip over the threads before fitting?

I'm not using a torque wrench to tighten, just a bar (well a trolley jack handle) and a socket.


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## Grizzle (Jul 12, 2006)

Some say yes others say no....

Personally i dont bother but then i always use a torque wrench.


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## alan_mcc (Oct 28, 2008)

I think I recall 'dry torque' being different to 'wet torque' so if you use a torque wrench you shouldn't. So I guess I will. I'll invest in a torque wrench though..

:thumb:


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## Alan W (May 11, 2006)

Grizzle said:


> Personally i dont bother but then i always use a torque wrench.


...and the torque figure will differ depending on whether the wheel bolts are dry or lubricated. 

Alan W

EDIT: The torque figure from the manufacturer will be a dry torque because they do not use or recommend greasing the bolts.


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## Paintmaster1982 (Oct 23, 2007)

Alan W said:


> ...and the torque figure will differ depending on whether the wheel bolts are dry or lubricated.
> 
> Alan W
> 
> EDIT: The torque figure from the manufacturer will be a dry torque because they do not use or recommend greasing the bolts.


I know it sounds silly but you can over tighten wheel bolts so use the specified torque. If your going to be taking the wheels off regular for detailing then i wouldnt use copper grease but if they are going to be on for a while and only removeed for brakes/tyre replacements then id copper them up. only use a bit.

In all honestly i torque mine up to the specified settings even with copper greace on them and ive never had a problem.


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## Paintmaster1982 (Oct 23, 2007)

alan_mcc said:


> I'm not using a torque wrench to tighten, just a bar (well a trolley jack handle) and a socket.


i wouldnt do it like that. you dont know how tight the bolts need to be. like i said before you can over tighten them and find you cant get them off without damaging the nut/bolt or the wheel.


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## The Cueball (Feb 8, 2007)

I use a very small amount on mine, and torque them up @ 120nm

Right, wrong or indifferent, that is how I do it.... never had any issues.

:thumb:


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## SurGie (Aug 6, 2010)

Paintmaster1982 said:


> I know it sounds silly but you can over tighten wheel bolts so use the specified torque. If your going to be taking the wheels off regular for detailing then i wouldn't use copper grease but if they are going to be on for a while and only removed for brakes/tyre replacements then id copper them up. only use a bit.
> 
> In all honestly i torque mine up to the specified settings even with copper grease on them and ive never had a problem.


I did this and one of my wheels fell off.

I agree if the wheels are to come off within short periods of times then there is no point using copper grease.


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## Paintmaster1982 (Oct 23, 2007)

SurGie said:


> I did this and one of my wheels fell off.
> 
> I agree if the wheels are to come off within short periods of times then there is no point using copper grease.


no way the wheel fell of from over tightening?

I also put a smear of copper grease on the spiggot area and around the surface when the wheel meets the disc. that way when you remover the wheel its not stuck to the spigot.


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## Paintmaster1982 (Oct 23, 2007)

The Cueball said:


> I use a very small amount on mine, and torque them up @ 120nm
> 
> Right, wrong or indifferent, that is how I do it.... never had any issues.
> 
> :thumb:


iam sure mine is 81 lb ft. not sure what that is in nm lol. iam always suprised how easy they are to take off hence why not to over tighten.


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## The Cueball (Feb 8, 2007)

Paintmaster1982 said:


> iam sure mine is 81 lb ft. not sure what that is in nm lol. iam always suprised how easy they are to take off hence why not to over tighten.


120nm is 89 lb ft

110nm is 81 lb ft

Good point above about the spiggot area and back of the wheel, I do that as well...

Once had a very angry 18 stone Harley Davidson rider hanging off my BMW rear wheel, and it still would not budge... so learned my lesson 

:lol:

:thumb:


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## Jem (Aug 10, 2007)

Wheel bolts/nuts should always be fitted dry*. Use coppergrease on the spigot though. They should be correctly torqued too, 'FT' is way too tight!

*alloy wheel nuts should have coppergrease applied to the threads, and it's vital they are not over tightened.


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## Derekh929 (Aug 28, 2011)

Copper slip for me and rub down the lip of the hub with wire brush on the BM to save having to use a block of wood and large hammer to remove


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## Paintmaster1982 (Oct 23, 2007)

The Cueball said:


> 120nm is 89 lb ft
> 
> 110nm is 81 lb ft
> 
> ...


haha yeah i had the same with my old GTI golf. Infact i reckon thats the only reason why the bloke sold it is because he couldnt get the wheels off. I used all my anger and strenght and anger again to kick the **** out of them to get them off haha. I was sort of back heeling them to get them off and only when i went into full melt down they popped off haha


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## Guest (Mar 6, 2012)

i put some copper grease on every time i take the wheels of,makes life alot easier


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## Strothow (Oct 29, 2009)

Always use a small bit of copper grease on mine.

We only tighten the race car wheels upto 65lb ft!


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## andy monty (Dec 29, 2007)

I do mine dry 

Watch it Alan Punto hubs are prone to pulling their threads out if over tightened


mark 2 /3 punto ...which is 86Nm or 63lbf ft


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## SurGie (Aug 6, 2010)

Paintmaster1982 said:


> no way the wheel fell of from over tightening?
> 
> I also put a smear of copper grease on the spigot area and around the surface when the wheel meets the disc. that way when you remover the wheel its not stuck to the spigot.


I always use copper slip on the surface of the wheels where they meet the brake disk, the alloy starts to degrade when in contact with the steel disk.

What im saying is i used the correct torque settings with the copper grease on the threads and one wheel came off, i found another 2 bolts on other wheels had started to be loose :doublesho

Another point i'd like to make is when alloys get powder coated, where the bolts meet the alloy this area has to have no powder coating on. If it does the powder coating will come off thus making a space between the bolt and alloys bolt hole, causing the bolts to become loose and as more miles are done come looser etc.


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## *Das* (Aug 9, 2010)

Always use copper slip on mine, have done for years and years. I always torque them to the correct setting too.


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## Jem (Aug 10, 2007)

I had a look through Autodata this morning and could not find one car manufacture recommending grease on wheel bolt threads, the vast majority say 'do NOT lubricate threads'. Putting grease on the threads vastly changes the load on the bolt, as a torque setting is in effect the measure of friction acting on the threads, so less friction means the bolt is under more tension than a bolt which has not been greased.

(Autodata does not list specialist manufacturers like lotus, Porsche, Ferrari etc, so there maybe exceptions.)


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## vRS Carl (Aug 14, 2011)

The way i look at it. If you apply grease your lubricating something to make it loosen easy that you want to remain tight until you decide to take it off.

For me it's dry bolts and just tighten up with a wheel wrench. I don't torque them up but perhaps i should:thumb:


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## alan_mcc (Oct 28, 2008)

Didn't bother in the end and they went on fine.

:thumb:


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## The Cueball (Feb 8, 2007)

Jem said:


> I had a look through Autodata this morning and could not find one car manufacture recommending grease on wheel bolt threads, the vast majority say 'do NOT lubricate threads'. Putting grease on the threads vastly changes the load on the bolt, as a torque setting is in effect the measure of friction acting on the threads, so less friction means the bolt is under more tension than a bolt which has not been greased.
> 
> (Autodata does not list specialist manufacturers like lotus, Porsche, Ferrari etc, so there maybe exceptions.)


M'eh... intructions are for women...  

I do plenty against "experts" rules, "manufacturers" rules etc etc etc...

AFAIK I am still alive, even after breaking all these "rules" but I'll be dead someday though, that I can 100% bet on.

:lol:

:thumb:


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## Alan W (May 11, 2006)

The Cueball said:


> M'eh... intructions are for women...
> 
> I do plenty against "experts" rules, "manufacturers" rules etc etc etc...
> 
> ...


Jem does have a very valid point Cuey! 

Should you tighten a lubricated bolt to a dry torque figure you are effectively overtigthening the the bolt by a margin of 30% to 40%! :doublesho

Alan W


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## SurGie (Aug 6, 2010)

Thats got to be the biggest mistakes men ever make, not reading the instructions. Reading the instructions is much like crying, men aren't supposed to cry but they are a stronger person by doing so. Reading the instructions means you know what you are doing and are stronger, better prepared in doing so. There are so many things that people miss that can make a big difference when using things/tools that have instructions etc.

I wont be using any copper grease on wheel bolts/nuts again, however i will use it on the alloy where it meets the brake disk. Maybe when people use it and nothing happens then maybe they ant driving hard enough lol.


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## *Das* (Aug 9, 2010)

Alan W said:


> Jem does have a very valid point Cuey!
> 
> Should you tighten a lubricated bolt to a dry torque figure you are effectively overtigthening the the bolt by a margin of 30% to 40%!


But are you? If its lubricated, the same figures still apply. Its still the same torque. I tighten copper greased locking wheel nuts to the same as normal copper greased wheel nuts, 110nm, and have never had a problem. 110nm is still 110nm.

Which weighs most. 100kg of feathers or 100kg of concrete?


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## SurGie (Aug 6, 2010)

Show us a car manufacturer that advises that copper slip needs to be used then ?

Im not sure if rusted hub holes/threads make any difference ?


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## *Das* (Aug 9, 2010)

Most manufacturers wont tell you that the water pump is likely to seize and break the timing belt before the recommended belt replacement either.......


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## Jem (Aug 10, 2007)

DasArab said:


> But are you? If its lubricated, the same figures still apply. Its still the same torque. I tighten copper greased locking wheel nuts to the same as normal copper greased wheel nuts, 110nm, and have never had a problem. 110nm is still 110nm.
> 
> Which weighs most. 100kg of feathers or 100kg of concrete?


Yes you are, there is less friction on the threads, so for the same torque applied to the bolt, your putting the bolt under more tension.


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## Jem (Aug 10, 2007)

DasArab said:


> Most manufacturers wont tell you that the water pump is likely to seize and break the timing belt before the recommended belt replacement either.......


Maybe not, but when it comes to something as important as keeping your wheels on, they have a duty of care to give the correct advice. And we are not talking about this advice coming from a guy in a shed making a rough guess, were are talking advice from engineers, proper engineers, working from decades of research, testing and failure investigation.


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## The Cueball (Feb 8, 2007)

Jem said:


> Maybe not, but when it comes to something as important as keeping your wheels on, they have a duty of care to give the correct advice. And we are not talking about this advice coming from a guy in a shed making a rough guess, were are talking advice from engineers, proper engineers, working from decades of research, testing and failure investigation.


I get all that, and I'm sure they are correct.... but... well.... I just don't care.

Can't put it any plainer than that.... :lol:

I forget how many cars I've had since I started driving, slow cars, fast cars, track day cars, old cars, new cars.... all looked after the same way, never once have I lost a wheel, broke a wheel - or even lost a bolt.... I'm trying to even remember if I've had a bolt come loose 

in fact, someone, anyone, find me any incident of a bolt or wheel falling off because, and only because a bit of copper grease was used (no other possible reason) that is your challenge... just 1 genuine person... and not a 'story' of your mates, brothers, uncles, wee brothers best friend from primary school...

Please, someone find me 1 real story....

just type into google "wheel fell off because of copper grease" and you will see how many people use it, and how none have had any trouble... you may also find a guide by a well known detailing company on cleaning wheels, specifically saying use copper grease... tut tut...

:lol:
:thumb:

as for you surgie.... not driving hard enough... your posts really do crack me up..... :lol::lol::lol::lol::wall::wall::wall:

I'm away to cry and read some instructions to make me a stronger person..... :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

You'll be wanting some group hugs next, maybe a section on 'feelings'



This whole debate is a moot point to be honest... some people like to do it, some don't... just like most things in the world... this is just something else we can all agree to disagree on.... think what a boring place the world would be if we followed every instruction and piece of advice we were given to the letter...

:thumb:


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## Jem (Aug 10, 2007)

You know what Cue I think you must be right, I'm going to start putting copper grease on all the wheel nuts I fit at work. When I get called into the office to explain myself I'll just say some bloke on the internet said he's been doing it for years and never had a problem. Keep an eye out for the 'I got sacked today' thread I'll be posting tonight.


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## The Cueball (Feb 8, 2007)

Jem said:


> You know what Cue I think you must be right, I'm going to start putting copper grease on all the wheel nuts I fit at work. When I get called into the office to explain myself I'll just say some bloke on the internet said he's been doing it for years and never had a problem. Keep an eye out for the 'I got sacked today' thread I'll be posting tonight.


:lol: good luck, and if you do get sacked, it will give you more time to go and find that 1 person I challenged you to find  

Jem, don't change what you do, just the same way I'm not going to change what I do, because some bloke on the internet says it wrong 

:thumb:


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## Jem (Aug 10, 2007)

The Cueball said:


> Jem, don't change what you do, just the same way I'm not going to change what I do, because some bloke on the internet says it wrong
> 
> :thumb:


But you forget all these car manufacturers who say you're wrong.


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## The Cueball (Feb 8, 2007)

Jem said:


> But you forget all these car manufacturers who say you're wrong.


:lol:

Woooooo the manufactures say (through their internet spokesperson Jem)

Cueball is wrong......

oh no!?!? what will I do, where will I go.... how will I live.....oh the shame!!!! 

They can join the queue then like the rest of them....it's pretty long...

:thumb:

<edit> my Audi s8 handbook, page 212 changing a wheel:

- have the tightening torque of the wheel bolts checked as soon as possible with a torque wrench. The correct tightening for light alloy wheels is 120nm

Not one mention of NOT using any copper grease etc when doing them back up, no mention of dry/wet torque values... no mention of copper grease etc anywhere in the owners manual under changing wheels (that I can see)

can you please point me in the right direction of where it will state (according to you) that it's dangerous to use such grease and I can look it up....

Do you want me to check and quote the handbooks of my other cars?!?!?

:thumb:


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## Jem (Aug 10, 2007)

It does appear that you have an oddball Cueball. Audi DO recommend using copper grease on the threads, but not the seat of conical washers, if you have them:


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## The Cueball (Feb 8, 2007)

Do you think that it's something that you guys, being in the "back room" get told... yet they are not stating it in handbooks to their customers?!?!?

I have looked at my Jag and Jeep books, they do not mention anything about NOT using it either.... maybe there is no money in own brand copeer grease, so they don't bother about saying use it or don't use it...

I would have thought that with the modern age of suing people left right and centre, and H&S gone mental, this sort of safety issue should at least be mentioned somewhere?!?!

I mean, there are at least 2 or 3 WARNINGS on every page of the Jag owners manual about the daftest things.... isn't a "wheel falling off if you use copper grease" a pretty big safety warning?!?!? (there are 9 warnings just in the "changing wheel and jacking" section!!! :lol: 9 of them!!!! )

or, could it be, just maybe....... that is doesn't _really_ matter... and that it's really not an issue?!?!?!?



Thanks for sticking the picture up above though.... for the interests of being honest... can you do it for a 2002 one... you have the right car, but wrong age.. and you never know... 

:thumb:


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## Jem (Aug 10, 2007)

I'm not sure to be honest. Wheel bolts are inherently over engineered, you can tighten them FT and you're very unlikely to have a problem. A 2002 S8 is exactly the same as the picture I posted, but I cannot recall finding any form of grease on the threads of any car with steel bolts which hasn't had its wheels removed since leaving the factory.


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## Bratwurst (Jan 23, 2009)

SurGie said:


> Another point i'd like to make is when alloys get powder coated, where the bolts meet the alloy this area has to have no powder coating on. If it does the powder coating will come off thus making a space between the bolt and alloys bolt hole, causing the bolts to become loose and as more miles are done come looser etc.


Had this happen to me once with newly powdered wheels :doublesho

Got a mile from the garage and 'felt a strange wobble' :lol:

I don't _think_ I actually 5hat myself until I got out and saw the horror of what was seconds from happening to my car :doublesho

Just to add to the nut torque debate... sometimes I put on a dod of grease, sometimes I don't. I always tighten to the manufacturers torque (which to me seems not tight enough) so then just tighten a bit more anyway :lol:

I think this is a case of better too tight than not tight enough.

As for the grease... can't say I've ever heard of it causing a problem, ever. My Rover manual says nothing about greasing or not, just says the torque setting.


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## theshrew (May 21, 2008)

The Cueball said:


> I get all that, and I'm sure they are correct.... but... well.... I just don't care.
> 
> Can't put it any plainer than that.... :lol:
> 
> ...


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## The Cueball (Feb 8, 2007)

Are you kidding me...it has even just been shown, by someone else on this thread that Audi say that you should use grease....

I have an Audi... 

and, FYI, if you bother to read the posts correctly, i have never said I am right, I have just explained the way I do things... right wrong or indifferent... AND I have stated that THEY ARE RIGHT....

So, what is the point of your post!?!??! 

I do listen to other people, but I do also talk to them and ask them to clarify and prove what they are saying... sorry for not just doing as I am told and believing everything I hear... such a bad boy... :wall::wall: 

if you are going to take the pi$$ and try and have a go at me, at least read the posts and get your facts right........

:lol:


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## theshrew (May 21, 2008)

I wasnt trying to take the **** - unlike yourself. 

Ok so you have a Audi and they say to use lube (if its correct in what you say) 

As far as im aware no other manufactures do ? Why ? - Simply because you dont need it. 

Im not getting into a slanging match with you waste of time. You cant be wrong.


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## alan_mcc (Oct 28, 2008)

Jeeeez..

take a chill pill folks.. :thumb:


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## Bratwurst (Jan 23, 2009)

I was quite enjoying it


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## SurGie (Aug 6, 2010)

The whole point in using grease is so the bolt doesn't seize in. Now when they are torqued up to the correct setting without grease then i doubt they would seize and are unable to be removed. Now if they are over torqued up then im sure they would be more likely to seize in.

There is no need to over torque the wheel bolts/nuts, the car's specification torque is more than enough. If a manufacturer does state grease needs to be applied then that must be for the torque settings they also state to use.

So you have two choices > 1 Use grease and risk them not being set at the correct torque or > 2 dont use grease and know the torque is as correct as the manufacturer says so. 

I would rather risk a bolt being difficult in unscrewing rather than some bolts coming loose.


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## gordonpuk (Mar 14, 2010)

I've read that copper slip shouldn't be used between alloy and steel as when it gets wet
it becomes a battery, aluminum grease is better.
Interesting bulletin http://www.myfreelander.co.uk/Suspension/suspprobs6.htm


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## McClane (Dec 9, 2010)

Where were you lot on Wednesday night with the wax/sealant natural/man made debacle???


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## Bratwurst (Jan 23, 2009)

We were out playing with our nuts


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## alan_mcc (Oct 28, 2008)

gordonpuk said:


> I've read that copper slip shouldn't be used between alloy and steel as when it gets wet
> it becomes a battery, aluminum grease is better.
> Interesting bulletin http://www.myfreelander.co.uk/Suspension/suspprobs6.htm


Yeah I've heard this before

Used to do it when I had steelies as they had a terrible habit of getting stuck, not a problem with alloys though


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## McClane (Dec 9, 2010)

wee_green_mini said:


> We were out playing with our nuts


I've been doing that a lot recently... I should probably post a picture of them now they're all shiny


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## theshrew (May 21, 2008)

SurGie said:


> The whole point in using grease is so the bolt doesn't seize in. Now when they are torqued up to the correct setting without grease then i doubt they would seize and are unable to be removed. Now if they are over torqued up then im sure they would be more likely to seize in.
> 
> There is no need to over torque the wheel bolts/nuts, the car's specification torque is more than enough. If a manufacturer does state grease needs to be applied then that must be for the torque settings they also state to use.
> 
> ...


This is pretty much correct. Although over torqued wouldnt mean it would seize. :thumb:

Though bang on they wont seize anyway or you would have to be very very very unlucky if one did = no point doing it at all.


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## The Cueball (Feb 8, 2007)

theshrew said:


> I wasnt trying to take the **** - unlike yourself.
> 
> Ok so you have a Audi and they say to use lube (if its correct in what you say)
> 
> ...


No, I was asking questions....not taking the pi$$....

I have the Audi handbook (they don't mention it in there), and the other poster is the one that is saying that Audi say to use lube (post No 36)... why can't you see that?!!? It's not just me.

My point raised was asking the same question as you, they don't say use it, but, crutially, in this H&S gone mad world, they do not say DON'T use it in their handbooks, and I am asking the quesiton why....

If it is so wrong, and so dangeous, remembering I have 9 warnings from Jaguar just about changing the wheel... why is this dangerous thing not even mentioned?!?!?! 

From the way people have been replying about how wrong and dangerous it is, and every manufacturer says not to use it... I was expecting to go to my owner manuals and see that very thing... but alas no, I have checked my 4, and 3 further ones in the work... not a mention...not a peep, not even a small sentence about it.....

No pi$$ taking, I was asking a genuine question. :wall:

I am wrong every day of my life, so not sure where you are getting the last bit from... made up no doubt...

:thumb:


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## alan_mcc (Oct 28, 2008)

FTR, the only reason I didn't do it is cause I was desperate to fit my wheels while it was still light.. 

I'm gonna take them off one by one and apply copper slip however as I genuinely do think it makes a massive difference. :thumb:


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## SurGie (Aug 6, 2010)

Does anyone have any links on where to buy this aluminium grease ?

I only found this http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_f...kw=aluminium+grease&_sacat=See-All-Categories


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## Bratwurst (Jan 23, 2009)

If you go to Google Shopping, search 'Aluminium Grease', then sort by price, a whole load come up a page or two on... :thumb:

Bigger quantities than the ebay one too. :thumb:


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## alan_mcc (Oct 28, 2008)

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/K12-Alumi...812?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item20c21d74c4

that looks like good stuff tbh


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## SurGie (Aug 6, 2010)

All i seem to get is stuff in dollars, google is pretty useless these days tbh.

Thanks, the above stuff looks good.


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## Bratwurst (Jan 23, 2009)

Are you on google.co.uk?


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## SurGie (Aug 6, 2010)

I didn't check that, i thought as im in the UK i would get the UK google first lol. I'll check again thanks.

This is what i got with ebay at the top and not much else http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=al...l=1813l5605l0l7628l16l16l0l15l0l0l80l80l1l1l0


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## Bratwurst (Jan 23, 2009)

It probably is automatic, but like you say, worth checking. If that's having none of it, then you could try kelkoo or bing shopping.


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## SurGie (Aug 6, 2010)

Done it and got the above results^^


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## Bratwurst (Jan 23, 2009)

Sort by price low-to-high then go to page 2's results.


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## SurGie (Aug 6, 2010)

Done and done yet it just shows grease shields for ovens etc, its really useless these days, too much info in google maybe ? I type aluminium grease yet google shows products with other words i did not type, wtf.

Ebay to the rescue i think.


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## The Cueball (Feb 8, 2007)

I agree about google....

:thumb:


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## Grizzle (Jul 12, 2006)

Christ all this about nuts!!


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## The Cueball (Feb 8, 2007)

Grizzle said:


> Christ all this about nuts!!


:lol:

What's your point caller????


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## alan_mcc (Oct 28, 2008)

The Cueball said:


> :lol:
> 
> What's your point caller????


Don't listen to him.. he hasn't got any nuts to worry about :lol:


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## SurGie (Aug 6, 2010)

Its also about bolts.

:lol::lol::lol:


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## The Cueball (Feb 8, 2007)

SurGie said:


> Its also about bolts.
> 
> :lol::lol::lol:


:lol::lol::lol:

[/thread]


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## Paintmaster1982 (Oct 23, 2007)

maybe we should do a test. To see how many turns the nut/bolt does with and without copper/alloy slip to the manufactures torque settings. 

I cant see it been a massive difference. For example the origonal poster (i think) said he doesnt use a torque wrench to tighten up the wheel nuts/bolts but he could in theory be putting the same amount of torque on the nub,bolt dry as it would be with copper/alloy slip. (if over tightend).

Iam sure someone would be up for the challenge to see how many turns extra turns it puts on a bolt. 

purely to put this thread to rest and also in the intrest of safety.

edit post: god iam sad lol


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## RedUntilDead (Feb 10, 2009)

Paintmaster1982 said:


> maybe we should do a test. To see how many turns the nut/bolt does with and without copper/alloy slip to the manufactures torque settings.
> 
> I cant see it been a massive difference. For example the origonal poster (i think) said he doesnt use a torque wrench to tighten up the wheel nuts/bolts but he could in theory be putting the same amount of torque on the nub,bolt dry as it would be with copper/alloy slip. (if over tightend).
> 
> ...


That`s just ****** mate It has been explained in a few posts now by people who obviously have been educated in such aspects of engineering yet you refuse to accept this as a given:wall:
So now we are all rushing out to buy ally grease! give me a break!
I want correct fitment and seating of wheels and discs so it is not recommended to smear grease/copperslip on mating faces as this prevents that goal, end of. Do I do it? a slight smear around the locating wheel spigot and that`s it.
A recent article in mechancics edition was about the rise in garages having lots of returns of customers vehicles who have had recent discs fitted and experience brake judder.Almost every case was down to poor seating of the new discs. 
Arguing that you have done it this way or that and had no problems is lame in my book, doesn`t make it right when it goes against the accepted methods/best practice.


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## SurGie (Aug 6, 2010)

Well those mechanics must have put far too much on then, ive always applied it and never had any of those problems, whether you like that or not its a fact. I agree a little bit smeared on the alloy mating surface is enough just to stop the alloy from degrading/rusting and sticking to the brake disk. I have had trouble trying to get some old alloys of a car before now, a big whack with the nylon hammer sorted that out.

So what about the brake disk having surface rust on then ? Surely that would prevent the mating surface goal eh ?

If the bolts/nuts are torqued up to the required setting then that means the wheel to disk mating surface is enough ?


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## theshrew (May 21, 2008)

The Cueball said:


> No, I was asking questions....not taking the pi$$....
> 
> My point raised was asking the same question as you, they don't say use it, but, crutially, in this H&S gone mad world, they do not say DON'T use it in their handbooks, and I am asking the quesiton why....
> 
> ...


Geniune question gets my genuine answer. Not sure what you mean with the Jag thing but anyway.

Ok so you say why dont they put it in the manual. Why would they put it in ? They would if you were supposed to do it.

Also remember manufacturers are very blinkered in how they think. They only want / think there vehicles will be worked on in a dealership by qualified techs who should know this anyway. Obv in the real world this isnt the case. They only fit spare wheels and jack etc as its the law to do so ( i think ) and then lets face it a hell of a lot of people wouldnt have a clue how to change a wheel anyway and call tyre company etc.

Its a very common mistake that people make to put copper slip on bolts ( not just wheel studs ) You like many other do put it on - your choice, yes youve never had a loose bolt and tbh probably never will but im one for if your going to do something why not do it right ?

Presume people do put it on with good intentions so the bolts dont sieze. Which is kind of understanable but the fact is they wont sieze anyway + if anything id want a wheel stud to sieze in and not come loose easy.


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## Paintmaster1982 (Oct 23, 2007)

RedUntilDead said:


> That`s just ****** mate It has been explained in a few posts now by people who obviously have been educated in such aspects of engineering yet you refuse to accept this as a given:wall:
> So now we are all rushing out to buy ally grease! give me a break!
> I want correct fitment and seating of wheels and discs so it is not recommended to smear grease/copperslip on mating faces as this prevents that goal, end of. Do I do it? a slight smear around the locating wheel spigot and that`s it.
> A recent article in mechancics edition was about the rise in garages having lots of returns of customers vehicles who have had recent discs fitted and experience brake judder.Almost every case was down to poor seating of the new discs.
> Arguing that you have done it this way or that and had no problems is lame in my book, doesn`t make it right when it goes against the accepted methods/best practice.


ok dude easy does it. It might not have been interesting to you but despide people thinking that they know what they are talking about i feel the answer hasnt been given but the fact that peoples opinions have been expressed and when it comes down to it can anyone on here say they work for a car manufacture and design these nuts/bolts and know the answer?.
I was just seeing what the difference is between the two types of bolt/nut to see if there was a drastic measure in terms of tightness. Iam not say go out of your way to buy copper/ally slip for my gain lol thats just silly.
But if like any detailer would be willing to try then great.

If it was as clear cut as you make out it is then there wouldnt be 8 pages on this subject so i really dont think the answer has been given 

Just to recap no one is an expert on here (no offence)

p.s excuse the spelling but i cant be bothered

just to add, if then your not supposed to use copper slip on mating surfaces due to the loss of friction then surely using copper slip on the bolts/nuts adds extra torque on the bolt at the correct torque setting there for reducing the risk of the mating surfaces losing friction (with copper slip on the mating surface) due to the wheel been much tighter on the disc.

Maybe it should be like this. if you use copper slip on mating surfaces then you should use copper slip on nuts/bolts.

Again iam no expert but thats why these debates continue


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## The Cueball (Feb 8, 2007)

@ theshrew...

I understand what you are saying... however...

the very nature of warnings is telling you NOT to do something, to take any liability away from them

The jag owners manual has 9 warnings about NOT doing things when changing a wheel, so that is why, if this is such a dangerous thing, I would expect them to mention it... 

So I am warned about so much, but not this thing, that could lead, as people are suggesting to a wheel coming off... pretty dangerous in my eyes...

Let's move onto my Audi manual, again no warnings about not using this, and nothing to say you should either..... but as the post shows (and I'm guessing that is some official garage screen) Audi are saying you should you this product when re fitting wheels.... 

Doesn't make any sense to me, or seem to tie up... that is all I was getting at....

:lol:

anyway, it's a Friday night... hope you have a good one! 

:thumb:


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## theshrew (May 21, 2008)

The Cueball said:


> @ theshrew...
> 
> I understand what you are saying... however...
> 
> ...


Im with ya re the Jag jobby now.

I wouldnt say it was dangerous to do it. Just not good practice to do it.

Certain things in mechanics that are like this. A good example is head bolts. It will never tell you in a manual not to remove / re fit them with a air gun will just show your the order to tighten them up but its good practice not to do it.


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## theshrew (May 21, 2008)

Paintmaster1982 said:


> ok dude easy does it. It might not have been interesting to you but despide people thinking that they know what they are talking about i feel the answer hasnt been given but the fact that peoples opinions have been expressed and when it comes down to it can anyone on here say they work for a car manufacture and design these nuts/bolts and know the answer?.
> I was just seeing what the difference is between the two types of bolt/nut to see if there was a drastic measure in terms of tightness. Iam not say go out of your way to buy copper/ally slip for my gain lol thats just silly.
> But if like any detailer would be willing to try then great.
> 
> ...


Yes i work for a manufacturer at the moment :wave:

People add copper slip to the mating surface because wheels become dam hard to get off the hub. Next time you go to get a tyre changed ask the fella what its like to remove a alloy truck wheel. The soulution is a hell of a lot of bashing with a big **** sledge hammer you wouldnt belive how hard they are to remove its hard enough on some cars.

As others have said the copper slip on the threads could give a faulse tourqe reading it also is adding extra stress.

I shall try to explain ( this might not work ) Hold any bolt and look at the thread. Ok so lets say the thread is 1mm deep. If you add something onto the tread your changing the depth of that thread. In the end it could be like trying to fit 1.2 pints of beer into a pint glass.

Actually if you add copper slip / grease to a thread and tighten a bolt into some Ali parts its possible you can crack the Ali open because of the extra stress.


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## james_death (Aug 9, 2010)

I always use copper slip.... yes you can over tighten when they are lubed...


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## dew1911 (Jun 9, 2009)

Personally, I only ever used to copper slip the inside of the spigot ring on my cars, but then again the wheels are off at least twice a year anyway so don't get time to weld on.

The mechanic who works on our vans always 'slips the threads before putting the nuts back on the Transits. He's one of the proper "old school" mechanics and not a modern fitter, so I trust fully in it doing some good.


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## Strothow (Oct 29, 2009)

theshrew said:


> I shall try to explain ( this might not work ) Hold any bolt and look at the thread. Ok so lets say the thread is 1mm deep. If you add something onto the tread your changing the depth of that thread. In the end it could be like trying to fit 1.2 pints of beer into a pint glass.
> 
> Actually if you add copper slip / grease to a thread and tighten a bolt into some Ali parts its possible you can crack the Ali open because of the extra stress.


Surely dust would be just as bad then?


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## Russ and his BM (Jan 1, 2008)

All semantics really, imo. There is, however, an enormous elephant in the corner of this thread, which no-one is talking about here...

As someone who used to coppaslip their bolts and now doesn't, I can't say I have ever had a wheel fall off and been able to put it down to the grease.

What I can say is that I have had a monkey in a tyre place use his impact wrench to do up the bolts on the car, which subsequently rounded the thread off, causing the bolts to loosen and the wheel come off at 50 mph.

I now insist that when wheels go back on my car, the bolts are manually tightened with hand tools, and then torqued up properly, not smacked on in 5 seconds with the air impact wrench.


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## SurGie (Aug 6, 2010)

Agreed i hate it when i see people use those tools to do them up with, i fit all my wheels myself.


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## theshrew (May 21, 2008)

Strothow said:


> Surely dust would be just as bad then?


Yes correct. Clean threads are always best most of the time if it's a bolt screwing into something the thread will stay pretty clean anyway. It's more where thread is exposed you get problems. Like on exhaust clamps.

The fella in the post above yours has slip put on his studs before the nut goes on. So you have stud exposed with copper slip on. The thread won't go rusty but what will happen is the copper slip will act a bit like glue grit cack etc will stick to the slip. Won't do the threads any good if you don't clean them before you remove the nuts. Possibly resulting in stripped threads.


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## theshrew (May 21, 2008)

Russ and his BM said:


> All semantics really, imo. There is, however, an enormous elephant in the corner of this thread, which no-one is talking about here...
> 
> As someone who used to coppaslip their bolts and now doesn't, I can't say I have ever had a wheel fall off and been able to put it down to the grease.
> 
> ...


Sounds like you had a typical dip stick tyre monkey.

Personally I don't use a air gun for wheels but you can be pretty accurate with them. The guns are rated to certain Nm they will go upto. The crap ones they use in tyre shops won't tighten up really tight anyway. Then they should toque them up.


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## SurGie (Aug 6, 2010)

But wont the guns mean it's more possible to cross thread it due to its speed etc ?


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## theshrew (May 21, 2008)

No mate cross thread will only happen if you start the nut or bolt off cross threaded in the first place. The only difference is that you would feel it doing it by hand obv with a gun you wouldn't


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