# When to stop with passes???



## jcooper5083 (Jun 10, 2018)

Hi all,

Watched many videos and read a lot but there are multiple opinions as I am sure I will get now but wanted to know your thoughts on how many passes or when to know you have worked the compound enough and it is time to remove the DA? e.g. how much product is left, number of passes etc.

If it helps the car I will be working on is a 2016 Merc in osidian black and removing swirls - no deep scrathes.

Products are 600w DA, Hex logic pads (I have firm, medium and soft) and Menzerna compund (I have heavy cut, mid cut and finish)

Many thanks


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## Steampunk (Aug 11, 2011)

With the products you're using, the Zenith Point Method (ZPM) is what you'll get the best results with... Try and find DaveKG's articles on the subject.

With the ZPM, the purpose is to balance two factors; the lubricant's inherent desire to 'break' if heat and pressure are applied too fast, and the slow, linear diminishing nature of the abrasives of the Menzerna polishes. Build the heat and pressure up maybe one pass at a time. Start at one with no pressure to get the pad primed and the product spread, then two for a second pass which will improve both, then three through five to get some heat into the lube to keep it flowing, with increasing downward pressure. Then keep working it once at that level... Carefully observe the polish film. Work it until you start to see it thin, then decrease speed one notch, and lighten up a touch. The deceleration will bump some more lube into the mixture, and help you work it longer. Keep working until the film starts to look thin again, then decrease speed and pressure. Repeat, until you're at last on speed 1 with no pressure, and finish _before_ the polish film breaks again. This will work the polish out to its full, and give you the best possible finish/cut balance most of the time... It's also the slowest technique.

If you're just cutting, work up to speed/pressure a little quicker, and don't bother much with the finishing leg. Just wipe down the surface, inspect, and repeat until you're where you want to be. If you're finishing, apply less pressure on the upward leg of the cycle, and definitely make sure to take care to fully finish down the product, and getting your timing right with decreasing speed just before the lube film breaks.

With a less powerful machine like a DAS-6, this process takes awhile to do properly. To improve your speed if you're getting bored doing a cycle that might last 15-25 minutes to fully jewel down over an 18X18 section if you're doing the full long-cycle, there's two solutions... (1) switch to a more modern fast-cycle diminishing polish system like Scholl. (2) get a more powerful forced rotation, long throw, or rotary machine.

Hope this helps... I was a long time Menz user before switching. They've never stopped being lovely polishes, and you can still get amazing results with them, but they're not what I would recommend for efficient results with a DAS-6.

- Steampunk


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## jcooper5083 (Jun 10, 2018)

Steampunk said:


> With the products you're using, the Zenith Point Method (ZPM) is what you'll get the best results with... Try and find DaveKG's articles on the subject.
> 
> With the ZPM, the purpose is to balance two factors; the lubricant's inherent desire to 'break' if heat and pressure are applied too fast, and the slow, linear diminishing nature of the abrasives of the Menzerna polishes. Build the heat and pressure up maybe one pass at a time. Start at one with no pressure to get the pad primed and the product spread, then two for a second pass which will improve both, then three through five to get some heat into the lube to keep it flowing, with increasing downward pressure. Then keep working it once at that level... Carefully observe the polish film. Work it until you start to see it thin, then decrease speed one notch, and lighten up a touch. The deceleration will bump some more lube into the mixture, and help you work it longer. Keep working until the film starts to look thin again, then decrease speed and pressure. Repeat, until you're at last on speed 1 with no pressure, and finish _before_ the polish film breaks again. This will work the polish out to its full, and give you the best possible finish/cut balance most of the time... It's also the slowest technique.
> 
> ...


Thanks for this info - really useful insights and not something that has come to light before as most talk about technique overall rather than the difference with in the compounds.

In all honesty, would you say Menz is not the best for a beginer and someone not looking to spend two days polishing...lol

Many thanks


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## Steampunk (Aug 11, 2011)

If someone were starting off from scratch, with a DAS-6 type machine, I wouldn't recommend Menz... I'd probably recommend Scholl or Meg's. Menz has two 'features' that can be very frustrating if you're fresh to machine polishing. The biggest of which is the fact it doesn't like cold, or heat, or humidity. It can start to ball up on you in these situations. No problem if your climate is mild, or you work in a climate controlled garage, but real-world it can be a bit of a 'mare... The second factor is the time. With a more powerful machine they're quicker polishes to work, but if you really want to break them all the way down, you're going to be there awhile on a DAS-6. 

However, if you already own the products, give them a whirl! Menzerna are still some of the highest quality polishes out there in terms of abrasives. You'll get lovely results. Just take your time with them, and try to relax as you work... I guess there's a silver lining to the long working times... It gives you time to get used to machine control, which as a newbie is a critical part of the process. :buffer: 

- Steampunk


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## jcooper5083 (Jun 10, 2018)

Steampunk said:


> If someone were starting off from scratch, with a DAS-6 type machine, I wouldn't recommend Menz... I'd probably recommend Scholl or Meg's. Menz has two 'features' that can be very frustrating if you're fresh to machine polishing. The biggest of which is the fact it doesn't like cold, or heat, or humidity. It can start to ball up on you in these situations. No problem if your climate is mild, or you work in a climate controlled garage, but real-world it can be a bit of a 'mare... The second factor is the time. With a more powerful machine they're quicker polishes to work, but if you really want to break them all the way down, you're going to be there awhile on a DAS-6.
> 
> However, if you already own the products, give them a whirl! Menzerna are still some of the highest quality polishes out there in terms of abrasives. You'll get lovely results. Just take your time with them, and try to relax as you work... I guess there's a silver lining to the long working times... It gives you time to get used to machine control, which as a newbie is a critical part of the process. :buffer:
> 
> - Steampunk


Thank you again. Having purchased three different grades of Mez compound I think I need to stick with it as the investment has been made but your comments have really helped in terms of getting me to take my time which as you say is key.

One other question whilst I have you - I have only purchased one of each of the three main Hex Logic pads (Orange, green and white) for both 5.5 inch and 4 inch and have been told I should have got more as they will clog up but can I clean them as I go so I can stick with these or do I need more?


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## Steampunk (Aug 11, 2011)

Always happy to help... I've been in your shoes before. 

When it comes to the pads... My recommendation, when you're first starting out, is not to try to correct the whole car at once. Do a panel, learn from that experience, clean the pads with APC and water, let them dry, and then start again wiser on the next section.

If you do so, you could get away with just one of each, though I'd still advise 2-3 of each. On a car the size of which is shown in your avatar, if you wanted to complete the whole vehicle in one go, you'd need at least six of each type of pad you'd need. However, before investing in half a dozen types of pad, you need to really know what works for you. You'll learn quickly after your first panel. Then you can start making some better decisions about the pads you really need... 

Regarding Menzerna, they favor closed-cell foams, so the Orange and Green are going to give you less cut, less run-time, and a poorer finish than the closed-cell Hex Logics like the Yellow and White. I found the orange really poor with Menz, and the green shockingly poor with just about any product. Fortunately, you haven't invested too deeply yet, so can build your pads up around the products you're working with. 

Hex Logic/Buff & Shine Yellow/White, Scholl White Spider/NEO Honey, CarPro Flash, and Lake Country Hydro-Tech Tangerine/Crimson (The QC on these pads isn't as good as it used to be.), etc, are good place to start with German polishes on an 8mm free-throw machine. 

Hope this helps...

- Steampunk


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## jcooper5083 (Jun 10, 2018)

Steampunk said:


> Always happy to help... I've been in your shoes before.
> 
> When it comes to the pads... My recommendation, when you're first starting out, is not to try to correct the whole car at once. Do a panel, learn from that experience, clean the pads with APC and water, let them dry, and then start again wiser on the next section.
> 
> ...


Thank you so much - all your comments on my various posts have been so useful and I want to take this steady, learn and find my way so everything you have said makes sense.

Really appreciate the support and no doubt once I start I will have a load more questions....lol


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