# Citroen Grand Picasso - FAIL!!!



## griffin1907 (Mar 4, 2006)

Well. couple of weeks ago we done the sensible thing and chopped my cr in for a cheaper to run car. C4 Grand Picasso VTR+ HDi ABC 123 ABBA BoneyM blah blah blah

2 weeks on, 650 miles to a tank and all WAS well.......

Last night coming home from work, car starts lunging when pulling away from roundabout, warning sign "handbrake faulty" . I pulled in to the next layby, switched off, waited a few seconds and re started all seemed ok, I pulled back on to the dual carriageway and disaster, car stops dead in the near side lane, live lane. I jumped out PDQ as the thing refused to start and I couldn't move it. Dash lit up like a Christmas Tree, gearbox fault, ABS fault, handbrake fault.

I tried to retreat to a safe place but there was no crash barrier, hard shoulder and a steep bank to climb.

Chucking it down with rain, windy and pee'd off I'm still calm. Breakdown company arrange recovery and the Police arrive to close the lane for safety.

Anyway, car eventually recovered to dealership at 1830hrs, and it's now there awaiting repair.

Im still unsure what to do with regards to car, am thinking of seeing if I can change it for summat else as that was pretty damned scary, to me at least.

Silly things with the car since getting it have made me lose confidence in the dealer, petty things like tyre pressures 10psi underflated and screen wash empty I'm not sure they even checked the car over before release.

What would you do???


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## RisingPower (Sep 21, 2007)

How long until someone mentions french electrics? 

I presume there was no hard shoulder when it cut out, not even anywhere to pull over safely (can't make out whether you're saying that was before or after it cut out)

Hmm 10psi is a fair amount and you didn't notice it when driving?

Personally, i'd just get it checked over properly, but then again even going into limp mode in the m3 did put me off it a little bit, though it was easily fixed.


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## GSD (Feb 6, 2011)

French electrics


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## griffin1907 (Mar 4, 2006)

Car wouldn't start, couldn't move it and no hard shoulder.

I'm gonna make the garage check every cut n bolt on the car before potentially giving it back.

As for tyres, I thought the ride was soft so decided to check the pressures and was quite surprised they were that low.


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## PugIain (Jun 28, 2006)

RisingPower said:


> How long until someone mentions french electrics?


You should know, Mr Renault engine 

It's not a 1.6HDi is it?. Make a sentence - the, avoid, plague, like


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## Junkers_GTi (May 29, 2013)

I've heard issues like this happening on Pug 307 and other PSA vehicles, it's a known thing nowadays... Strange thing really. Personally I've not experienced a single electrical failure on my 207 for over 2 years of ownership. I would drive it a little bit longer, make sure nothing else happens... If it does then I would get rid of it.

Best of luck mate


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## RisingPower (Sep 21, 2007)

PugIain said:


> You should know, Mr Renault engine
> 
> It's not a 1.6HDi is it?. Make a sentence - the, avoid, plague, like


It's not a renault engine! It's a datsun! 

Isn't yer 406 a 1.6 tractor?


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## PugIain (Jun 28, 2006)

RisingPower said:


> It's not a renault engine! It's a datsun!
> 
> Isn't yer 406 a 1.6 tractor?


406!?
That's my brother now, and no, it's a 1.8 petrol.
And the 3 407s 2.0 HDi


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## RisingPower (Sep 21, 2007)

PugIain said:


> 406!?
> That's my brother now, and no, it's a 1.8 petrol.
> And the 3 407s 2.0 HDi


They all look the same, those french tractors


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## PugIain (Jun 28, 2006)

RisingPower said:


> They all look the same, those french tractors


My older 407 is a cement mixer, so


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## CzechRich (Jul 25, 2008)

Typical French car, went on strike.

Buy french, repent at leisure.

They are cheap for a reason.


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## PugIain (Jun 28, 2006)

CzechRich said:


> Buy french, repent at leisure.


It would have to be at my leisure, sweetie. I don't do rushing


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## Yadash (Oct 7, 2013)

If you've got a way of getting rid of it, do so, and try and get into a Zafira, having had many of the smaller 7 Seat MPV's, the Zafira was by far the best one in terms of reliability and it was fairly cheap to run with the 1.9 CDTI engine too.


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## bidderman1969 (Oct 20, 2006)

I hate modern cars, purely because most faults these days seem to be electrical, regardless of make and model.

Bet that would cost a bit if it wasn't under warranty, tbh, I wouldn't feel 100% comfortable with any "new" car nowadays, there's always one somewhere that's a "nightmare" that would put me off


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## xJay1337 (Jul 20, 2012)

Buying french and expecting reliability?

:lol:

Shame it happened though especially if the lane had to be closed, bet a lot of people hated you that day, not a nice situation for you to be in.

What you should do is buy a Golf TDI and whack a massive turbo on it. No mechanical breakdowns in 60k of hard driving with more than 2x stock engine power.

For a family car may I suggest doing the same to a Golf + TDI :lol:


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## craigeh123 (Dec 26, 2011)

Ive seen plenty of issues with vw group jay aswell as most marques it just seems the French have a way of over complicating things . As said above i wouldn't want any new car outside of its warranty period tbh . Father in laws got a brand new focus zetec s powershift diesel , stunning car full of kit but would i want it when the 3 year warranty finishes nope its got some seriously expensive components on it


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

I bought a 3 month old 2000 mile Citroen C5 2.0HDi in 2009. 

It was an horrendous experience I'll never repeat. 

Spent something like 18 weeks of my 18 month ownership in the garage. 

Tried a couple of dealers and they were both awful. Even Citroen couldn't care less. 

I won't go near either again.


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## xJay1337 (Jul 20, 2012)

craigeh123 said:


> Ive seen plenty of issues with vw group jay aswell as most marques it just seems the French have a way of over complicating things . As said above i wouldn't want any new car outside of its warranty period tbh . Father in laws got a brand new focus zetec s powershift diesel , stunning car full of kit but would i want it when the 3 year warranty finishes nope its got some seriously expensive components on it


That's true but most cars are pretty problem free.
All of my friends drive fairly modern cars and have no problems that weren't caused by cheap maintenance (eg using non genuine sensors cause no end of worries).

Most things are not as expensive as you think if you actually look at the dealer parts prices. 
The french are just a fairly poor quality country when it comes to automotive vehicles, cheap materials and poor design and electrics. Much larger companies like Ford, VW, Audi, and even Hyundai are far better these days.

If you wouldn't want to own a modern car because it "might" break then stick to your older cars? They have just as many (if not more) problems to be honest :lol:


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

German cars don't deserve their lofty reputations for reliability. They are miles behind the likes of Honda. 

I think every reliability survey shows that. 

Audi finished 2nd last for engine reliability and VW and BMW weren't that much further up the list.


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## possul (Nov 14, 2008)

When I worked at VW they were able to get round all there faults as they blamed the manafacturer of the part, leaking fuel filters come to mind first
Most parts just have VW stamped on them and not made by VW, like other manafacturers yes but other manafacturers but there hand up and fix or attempt to fix the fault


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## xJay1337 (Jul 20, 2012)

Kerr said:


> German cars don't deserve their lofty reputations for reliability. They are miles behind the likes of Honda.
> 
> I think every reliability survey shows that.
> 
> Audi finished 2nd last for engine reliability and VW and BMW weren't that much further up the list.


I agree in theory.

I can only go on my personal experience.
I doubt if I whacked huge injectors and a massive turbo on an iCDTI it would take more than 110% more power than standard and at 150k be be mechanically quieter than a 60k car.

There are some stupid things on them, like their intercooler pipes and clips design - They are very poor. There of course design niggles on any car.

By and large though, they are very reliable. The PD engine was around for over 12 years in various guises and mechanically, as long as serviced regularly, very reliable. Most issues are related to cheap replacement parts and sensors, and there are some genuine niggles such as ABS pumps and electronic handbrakes on certain models which can effect a high proportion of vehicles.

My Dad has a Lexus IS220d. It broke down and France and needed a new engine (pistons, rings, cylinder head, valves, etc). It also had to have a replacement gearbox and DMF (all paid for under Lexus warranty by the way). He's had many cars and the Lexus has been the least reliable.

So while the tables can give us an idea I don't think anything is really true to scale.


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

xJay1337 said:


> I agree in theory.
> 
> I can only go on my personal experience.
> I doubt if I whacked huge injectors and a massive turbo on an iCDTI it would take more than 110% more power than standard and at 150k be be mechanically quieter than a 60k car.
> ...


The tables are far more accurate as they are based on large numbers to get a better indication.

You may notice that Lexus don't sell diesels anymore.

Ever wondered why????

I bet if manufacturers were honest enough to give out figures, you'd find it's all the diesel lumps, especially the smaller ones, that are by far the most unreliable.

Most people I know with modern German diesels cars have had something significant go wrong.


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## xJay1337 (Jul 20, 2012)

I am not really into Lexus so can't really imagine why.

The engine itself is not bad it's just plauged with some problems.
I suspect it's more to do with brand image than reliability. As if I'm correct in remembering most people can't afford 40 grand on a car, most are company cars. Which are the most popular models of the 5 series, Jaguar XF, etc.. oh yeah - The Diesels  

Can you list these "significant" things that go wrong?

As you can probably tell I'm into my VWs and Audis 

I am very active within the Communities (uk-mkivs, Mk5gtiowners, Edition 38, etc etc) and its very rare anyone posts up saying their car has suffered a significant failure.

The most common "significant" problem I hear about turbo overboost caused by sticky VNT, which is in turn caused by general high mileage or old age and low load driving conditions over a matter of years. This is followed by EGR related issues - Which effect any diesel.

I've heard of one significant failure where a guy who was pushing the injection duration on his 300bhp + PD engine, on stock internals, melted a piston running 42 degrees of duration (which is very very high). :lol:

My Mums Toybota Rav 4 is currently suffering from turbo overboost caused by stick VNT - it's a technology used across the range.

It's Apples & Oranges really.


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## 738ALR (Sep 8, 2009)

By no means a defense, but I would let the dealer investigate and attempt to fix and just ensure they are clear of your displeasure!!

You could state intent to return it if it happens again.

Although scarey, it might be a simple fix and it's only fair to give people a chance.


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## possul (Nov 14, 2008)

Ed38 doesn't count!
Your frowned upon for fitting fake splits on a vag!


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## xJay1337 (Jul 20, 2012)

That's because fake splits are gay. :lol:


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

xJay1337 said:


> I am not really into Lexus so can't really imagine why.
> 
> The engine itself is not bad it's just plauged with some problems.
> I suspect it's more to do with brand image than reliability. As if I'm correct in remembering most people can't afford 40 grand on a car, most are company cars. Which are the most popular models of the 5 series, Jaguar XF, etc.. oh yeah - The Diesels
> ...


Anything from timing chains snapping, premature turbo failure, clutches and dual mass flywheels and DPFs are getting stupidly common for failing off the top of my head.

Many guys had warranty, but it's not the most pleasant thing to be left with £1000 bills or a regular basis.

I think you've picked up significant as being a complete engine failure. I mean something that is of sizeable cost to put right


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## xJay1337 (Jul 20, 2012)

Dual Mass Flywheel failures can effect any car really. It's in their nature to fail due to their (****e) design. 

There are as I said some issues with a variety of cars , BMW timing chains are one example  - However different issues occur across all brands from German to Japan. 
I do not count DPF failures as the cars fault - 90% of DPF issues are related to people's mis use of the car (I.E they chug around in town all day and then complain when their DPF gets blocked)


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

xJay1337 said:


> Dual Mass Flywheel failures can effect any car really. It's in their nature to fail due to their (****e) design.
> 
> There are as I said some issues with a variety of cars , BMW timing chains are one example  - However different issues occur across all brands from German to Japan.
> I do not count DPF failures as the cars fault - 90% of DPF issues are related to people's mis use of the car (I.E they chug around in town all day and then complain when their DPF gets blocked)


You don't hear anywhere near as many DMF failures on big engined petrol cars as you do small engined diesel engines.

How are people misusing their cars? If they want to use their car for a 3 mile journey every day that's their choice. You can do that with a petrol and they won't have any issues.

The vast majority of people simply don't care about cars. They just want something nice to get from A to B. They've had in drummed into they diesels get more MPGs and this influences them to buy a diesel.

Nobody ever points out to them that their driving habits might highlight one of the cars significant weak points.

I'm not even convinced that DPFs only fail doing short journeys too. A few guys that travel 60 miles+ for work have also suffered them failing.

They aren't fit for purpose as far as I'm concerned.


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## xJay1337 (Jul 20, 2012)

That's because due to their design a diesel engine and the power delivery, and relative torque vs their displacement (and therefore size) requries a dual mass flywheel to be put under a far greater stress than a larger petrol engined vehicle. You're comparing two compeltely different kinds of vehicles.

If you could say "Japanese TDIs dont suffer from DMF failure" (which you can't) then you would be able to make that point.

What people don't realise is that you can replace with a single mass flywheel kit for the cost of a regular clutch kit and you'll never suffer that problem again. 

Diesels DO get more MPG but people who only ever drive around town, who buy (for example) a Polo Bluemotion have BOUGHT the wrong car.
Most dealers will advise about the DPF and that vehicles with them are not really designed to be driven short distances regularly, they are more for people who occasionally use them around town but who mainly do longer journeys but don't want an extension of their wang to drive about it.

I didn't say all. I said 90% are due to short journeys. 

They are fit for purpose in the respect that they do their job (reduce particulate emissions) and so long as you are using the vehicle appropriately, by and large, are trouble free for a long period of time.


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## RisingPower (Sep 21, 2007)

xJay1337 said:


> Buying french and expecting reliability?
> 
> :lol:
> 
> ...


Is the golf + as practical as the picasso? Why not a touareg? Why not a q8? Zafira, alhambra, any other number of mpvs.

Besides, I seem to recall russ having some issues with a golf relating to the turbo/ecu.

It really doesn't sound like anything unusual for newer cars.


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## RisingPower (Sep 21, 2007)

xJay1337 said:


> I agree in theory.
> 
> I can only go on my personal experience.
> I doubt if I whacked huge injectors and a massive turbo on an iCDTI it would take more than 110% more power than standard and at 150k be be mechanically quieter than a 60k car.
> ...


It's not just about the engine, it's about every other niggly thing which means a trip to the dealership to get it sorted. When you spend most of your time at the dealership it doesn't mean the car is reliable.


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## craigeh123 (Dec 26, 2011)

Id just get a new one on the 3 year swap system warrantys up time for a new one lol .


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

xJay1337 said:


> That's because due to their design a diesel engine and the power delivery, and relative torque vs their displacement (and therefore size) requries a dual mass flywheel to be put under a far greater stress than a larger petrol engined vehicle. You're comparing two compeltely different kinds of vehicles.
> 
> If you could say "Japanese TDIs dont suffer from DMF failure" (which you can't) then you would be able to make that point.
> 
> ...


I've compared a car to a car. They aren't different vehicles.

I didn't refer the to size or how the diesels transmit more vibration or force through it, all I said it was they were far more prone to failure in diesel cars, which in my experience is very true.

The vast vajority of people who buy cars just want them to work. They aren't interested in the the mechanical workings of them and don't want the car off the road or bills to pay.

They don't want to replace anything with anything else either. They want it as the manufacturer intended.

I've never driven a car converted from DMF to a solid flywheel, but it'd be the last thing I wanted to do given the diesel engine is too corse already.

I didn't say Honda didn't suffer DMF failures. I however don't actually think I know a Honda diesel driver off the top of my head. The Honda drivers I know all seem to be petrol cars.

My point was German cars don't deserve their lofty reputation as being reliable. I also did highlight that the reason they did score badly was because the volume of diesels they sell.

Honda don't sell anywhere as many diesels as the Germans brands as far as I can see on the road and that's one of the many reasons they always score better.

That's also why Lexus don't do diesels. The is220d dragged their figures down.

I don't know what dealers you shop at, but when I bought any of my diesels, or assisted anyone else, not a single one has mentioned anything at all about a DPF. I've heard salesmen trying to convince people to buy a diesel over a petrol on a few occasions too.

I've never heard of a salesman detering a customer from a sale. They don't care. A sale is a sale.

I've lectured enough people not to buy diesel. They are corse and nowhere near as nice to drive as many petrol engines.

Most people buy them on completely false economy thinking it saves them money. It doesn't for many.

It still doesn't hide the fact they are forced to use the car differently from every car before in fear a part will fail.

The guidelines given by a few companies is that the predicted lifespan of a DPF is only around 70, 000 miles. So that's roughly about an extra £1000 every 5 years for an average driver and every 3/4 years for the people doing enough miles to justify a diesel.

You have a right to expect equipment to work as you want. It shouldn't be conditional. It should also last a reasonable lengh of time without fault. A costly fix every few years isn't what I'd call fair or fit for purpose.

Anyways, we've gone way off the original topic.

I'll stand by my opinion that German cars are nowhere near as reliable than people try to make you believe. Remember I drive German too.


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## xJay1337 (Jul 20, 2012)

As you've never driven a TDI with a SMF conversion I would perhaps suggest you don't cast assumptions or judge how they drive. Regular conversion kits are completely smooth as they use a sprung clutch assembly. Provides no vibration or ill effects. They actually drive more positively. 
They feel factory.

If you fit an uprated one then you can have some noise but for those who uprate the power of their engines this is not a problem. 
I explained to you why diesel DMFs tend to fail more.

You specifically mentioned engine size. 


Kerr said:


> I didn't refer the to size or how the diesels transmit more vibration or force through it, all I said it was they were far more prone to failure in diesel cars, which in my experience is very true





Kerr said:


> *You don't hear anywhere near as many DMF failures on big engined petrol cars as you do small engined diesel engines. *


You compared 2 completely different class of vehicle.

If people want to spend £800 on a new DMF and clutch kit when you can buy an Aftermarket Sachs, LUK or Valeo Single Mass Flywheel for under half the price, designed for your vehicle and to work exactly the same as a dual mass, then that's their problem. While 70,000 may not seem long it is a functional part and things wear out over time. The cost can be avoided by fitting single mass flywheel conversions, which are available for nearly every single manual hatchback and compact saloon diesel application on the market. These are far cheaper and last infinitely longer.

Diesels are mechanically less complicated. This is due to their ignition system. Especially the VAG PD engines for which they are timed and fuelled MECHANICALLY using the camshaft to inject fuel. The only electric based ingition systems are the glow plugs (which are not required to start the car and only used below 4 degree coolant temperature anyway) , and the engines ECU for immobilser settings as well as fuel injection quantities and duration (based upon degrees of rotation of the camshaft)

Having gone from a TDI Mk5 to a GTI Mk5 both engines have their pluses and minus. Direct Injection engines (as in the case of the TFSI) sound remarkably diesel like in their idle so there's little difference and once on the move you struggle to hear either vehicles engine over the radio or ambient road noise

Everything is conditional. You wouldn't buy a boat and expect it to work out of water. It's very well documented (and is done so purposefully by manufacturers in their handbooks to avoid paying for warranty work) about the fact that vehicles with DPFs are not to be slugged around town for weeks on end. There is a responsibility on both the salesman and the buyer to do the research.

If people understood cars slightly better they would save themselves a fortune. Ignorance is not an excuse. To me they should research their vehicles and that the vehicle they want is suitable to the intended use. Which is why I do not recommend people who drive around town regularly buy a vehicle with a DPF.

I have said about reliability I can only speak on my first hand experience that I've never had a problem with a PD engine and neither have many of the people whom I know closely on community forums.

Your experiences may be different.

Diesel sales (in tonnes so not based on cost) have been higher than petrol since mid 2010 and diesels are continuing to become more popular than petrols.


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## craigeh123 (Dec 26, 2011)

Ive heard some solid flywheel conversions can cause issues due to not dampening the vibrations . Ford apparently do one for the transit and you change to a dampened crank pulley . Simmilar idea i guess to using a sprung clutch like yours jay . 

As said though most people just want a car to work and ill admit as a mechanic id choose petrol over diesel just due to running costs ie injectors and dmfs .


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## xJay1337 (Jul 20, 2012)

In theory yes if you use an unsprung clutch and a single mass flywheel - but in practise, all come with sprung clutches (some are silent some are not) basically absorb any extra vibration. I had a normal SMF conversion on my TDI from 113k and then a severely uprated custom flywheel and G60 clutch setup from 143k till I sold it. The new owner has since fitted a Sachs SRE 6 paddle setup (again with single mass flywheel) it's still going at 155k+


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

xJay1337 said:


> As you've never driven a TDI with a SMF conversion I would perhaps suggest you don't cast assumptions or judge how they drive. Regular conversion kits are completely smooth as they use a sprung clutch assembly. Provides no vibration or ill effects. They actually drive more positively.
> They feel factory.
> 
> If you fit an uprated one then you can have some noise but for those who uprate the power of their engines this is not a problem.
> ...


Reading other people's views online,who seem to know what they are talking about, do say there is a noticeable difference between a DMF solid.

I find it especially hard to believe manufacturers would fit them it there was no benefit.

You've taken the size bit out of context. I did originally say big petrol engines as they are more likely to have DMFs than small petrol engine. They also have torque to match a diesel. You then started going on about the sizes of the clutches.

No idea how we've gone from DPFs failing in cars to boats in water.

Anyways enough of all this gibberish.

Have a good weekend.


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## xJay1337 (Jul 20, 2012)

So you'd rather read other peoples opinion than talk to people who have experienced it first hand.

The works.

Manufacturers always know best. Oh no wait, that's right, they don't.

I took the size as it was mentioned.You originally said what I quoted.
Say two engines have 236lb ft of torque, one is a 2.0 TDI which has a clutch size 240mm and the other is a 3.2v6 which has a 256mm clutch. Same amount of torque but delivered in completely different manners (huge lump of torque vs smoother torque delivery) and to a much smaller area.

If you've never heard of a metaphor. People using DPF equipped vehicles around town is akin to taking a boat (or a fish) out of water. Not it's natural habitit.

It's always gibberish isn't it.  

You too!


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

xJay1337 said:


> So you'd rather read other peoples opinion than talk to people who have experienced it first hand.
> 
> The works.
> 
> ...


With the risk of hurting your feelings, I usually take what you say with a pinch of salt. So yes I would in most circumstances take others opinions based on their experiences long before your own.

I'm fully aware what a metaphor is. Surprisingly in Scotland our language is English too.


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## 182_Blue (Oct 25, 2005)

And back on topic, if you two must carry on then i suggest you use the PM system.


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## ianrobbo1 (Feb 13, 2007)

Do we know the result of the OP's problem with his car yet??

I've been in a number of "dealers" and I use the term very loosely when people have come in with major faults on their new cars, and as soon as they had gone, "2 separate dealers" the staff just "shrugged" and to be totally honest gave me the impression they couldn't give a toss, both cars had to be recovered and both had electrical problems, as has been said previously, cars seem to be far too complicated these days, and I'm sure that "built in obsolescence" is high on the manufacturers list of "how to do" "the Muppet's" actually buying cars nowadays!!


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## RisingPower (Sep 21, 2007)

craigeh123 said:


> Ive heard some solid flywheel conversions can cause issues due to not dampening the vibrations . Ford apparently do one for the transit and you change to a dampened crank pulley . Simmilar idea i guess to using a sprung clutch like yours jay .
> 
> As said though most people just want a car to work and ill admit as a mechanic id choose petrol over diesel just due to running costs ie injectors and dmfs .


It's not just the additional noise is it though? The whole point aiui of a dmf is inertia that a single mass flywheel doesn't have, it's simple physics.

Great, if you want a flywheel which spins up real quick and don't mind the additional noise, not so great for driving on motorways.

Petrols have dmfs too as I was aware?


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## 182_Blue (Oct 25, 2005)

Closed at the OP's request.


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