# Ceramiclear Paints - Be Careful



## Mike Phillips

*Ceramiclear Paints - Be Careful*








Had a phone call from Shawn Kelly at Premier Detailing about a problem he was having on a brand new Mercedes-Benz AMG with Ceramiclear finish.

The customer bought the car brand new but brand new from the dealership it came with holograms, buffer marks and compound residue everywhere.

Shawn is an experienced Pro Detailer and when he started having problems working on the paint he called me to discuss possible remedies. In our conversation he told me that he had heard from someone in the auto industry that the chemistry design of Ceramiclear paints is that the nano particles in the resin migrate to the top to form the scratch-resistant surface.

I told him that I've heard of paint technologies like this but had no concrete information that this is the case for the PPG Ceramiclear. So I called the Doctor.

I called Dr. David Ghodoussi, who has either worked for or consulted for the majority of automotive paint manufactures for more information on this subject. Dr. Ghodoussi is more than qualified to talk about paint chemistry and he confirmed that what Shawn was told is correct.

_*From Dr. Ghodoussi...*_
_After the "cerami"clear top coat is sprayed, the nano particles of Fumed Silica (SiO2), which are synthetically engineered, migrate to the top 0.2 mils of the clear coat as it is curing._

_If you remove this potion of the clear layer of paint, the paint under it will be much softer and will not polish out or react the same way the nano particle portion did or would._ 
You will at some level have compromised the the finish on the car.​Knowing this, my opinion is that this is bad paint technology because while it might work in the testing labs, in the real world it puts detailers and car owners at risk.

Dr. Ghodoussi said this is an example of over-engineering.

I agree. The paint systems on new cars should *not* be _*rocket science*_ for detailers or even car owners to work on. Daily drivers see wear-n-tear and the way wear-n-tear, (swirls, scratches, water spots and oxidation), is addressed is to abrade the surface using some type of compounding and/or polishing process.

Paint manufactures and Car manufactures, (the companies using the paint), should know the paint on the finished product is going to become scratched and swirled and then compounded and polished and they should be taking this into consideration and providing a finish on new cars with this mind.

*To Paint Manufacturers and Car Manufacturers*
Just to note... if there are any representatives from paint manufacturers or car manufacturers reading this, cars are often times polished *more than ONCE* over their service life. So start putting more paint on your cars and make sure the paint can be compounded and polished by both pro detailers and enthusiast detailers without having to have a degree in chemistry.

*Choose wisely*
Knowing all of the above I would suggest that any time you are asked to work on a car with a Ceramiclear finish to first find out the history of the paint, that is... has it been cut with a compound by someone else that has worked on the car previously. If you find out others have compounded the Ceramiclear paint then choose wisely whether or not you put yourself at risk doing any type of compounding or polishing work to the paint.

Regardless of whether or not the car has ever been compounded or polished, follow this advice,

*"Use the least aggressive product to get the job done"*

There's a famous line from a *Kenny Rogers* song called _*The Gambler*_ that goes like this,
_You've got to know when to hold 'em_
_Know when to fold 'em_
_Know when to walk away_
_*And know when to run*_​It could be that when it comes to cars with Ceramiclear paint jobs... you might want to as I say...

_Let some other guy have the blessing..._


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## Mike Phillips

*From PPG.com*

*CeramiClear Clearcoat *
PPG's CeramiClear® clearcoat was the first clearcoat to use nanoparticle technology to achieve a previously unattained level of scratch, mar, and etch resistance.

This patented technology creates a hard, silica-like surface that provides superior resistance to damage caused by day-to-day use, car washes, and environmental hazards such as acid rain and tree sap.

While this technology is currently employed as a two-component liquid clearcoat, PPG is very close to commercializing a one-component version for use in automotive assembly plants.


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## CraigQQ

I spoke to Shawn on the phone about this car, we were racking our brains about it and I was quite shocked when he told me what mercedes had said about the ceramiclear paint migrating.

certainly something to bear in mind for all of us.. I think Shawn learned the hard way haha.. dealership messed it up then sent it to him.


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## Gruffs

Just to clarify Mike. 

You are using the American MIL there (0.001") NOT the metric mm which is often referred to in the UK as a mil?

So that means the top 5 microns would be SiO2 (0.2 MIL)?

This common mis-understanding is something I come across regularly so feel a very strong urge to clear up.

Thanks for pointing this issue out and investigating it.


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## Kelly @ KDS

5 microns 

interesting thing that i have not yet got fully to the bottom of it yet is ,

When spraying with such paints (clear coats) which we have tested , is you get around a window of 12-24 hours before fully cured , in the between stage from spraying and baking you can wet sand / machine correct the paint and behaves like normal soft aftermarket paint.

once a day or 2 then it hardens up alot , like most paints the crosslinking is going on for sometime after the bake cycle (most public think once baked fully cured which is not the case) but it hardens up much quicker then the standard form clear coats.

this suggests that the migration has not yet taken place, the PPG england rep said that if any defect/de nibbing is to be done do this before the 24 hours window has taken place.

is this because ,its easier to de nibb and correct , 
or is it also because the migration has not yet happened.

I will be experimenting on my own cars in the future too.

we have seen loads of mercs with such clears , and once they have had a heavy correction or mutliple corrections yes they as soft as normal paint.

My trouble is we will be offering this to customers as an up grade when having a repaint, as its works well against marring and wash marks etc .

Not scratch resistant as labeled but still much tougher than standard paint .

These type of customers are going to ask for the flattest smoothest finish possible which will mean fully wet sanding the paint after curing , so almost undoing the whole idea of the clear coats advantages.

But i need to test and check if the wet sanding is done before migration then does the SiO2 rise to the surface thus not being effected ???

This paint is like having 5 microns of coating such as g techniq C1 , C1 and similar has been tested by many detailers that these type of coatings work in the real world and then its normally around a thickness of a 10th of a micron how great would 5 microns be 

But you have got to get perfect gun finish to gain the most from it. 
(no de nibbing etc)

Kelly

www.kdsdetailing.co.uk


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## Gruffs

Edited as you typed Kelly :lol:


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## Kelly @ KDS

found this in my office now :thumb:

Drying Times

Dust-free 20°C 20 - 25 minutes 
dry to handle 6 hours minimum
Through-dry 20°C 24 hours

Forced Through-dry 65°C 30-40 minutes
IR Short wave 10 - 15 minutes depending on colour

* Bake times are for quoted metal temperature. Additional time should be allowed in the baking
schedule to allow metal to reach recommended temperature

POLISHING

Low bake or IR force
drying:
Minimum 1 hour after cooling

Air drying at 20°C: Minimum 20 hours after application
PERFORMANCE AND LIMITATIONS

PPG D8122 CeramiClear® 8122 as a scratch resistant clearcoat requires a special process for removing dust and polishing.

Some coarser compounds may cause scratching of the surface leading to
swirl or hologram type scratch marks.

PPG recommends the use of the Pro-1 polishing system for the successful polishing of both Refinish and OEM CeramiClear® clearcoat.

*Polishing should be completed within 24 hours of baking*.

If a damaged part has to be repaired without replacing it, it is absolutely necessary to sand the OEM CeramiClear® thoroughly.

Superficial sanding can result in adhesion problems.

When blending of basecoat colour is required into adjacent OEM CeramiClear® panels, detail sanding using P800 dry followed by Abralon P1000 damp or P1000/P1200 wet should be carried out.

Using scouring pads will not key the surface sufficiently, which will lead to mechanical property failures such
as poor adhesion.

And this is from a PPG - Technical Service Bulletin

Deltron D8122 can be polished after drying for 30 minutes at 60°C and cooling down for a minimum of 1 hour. PPG recommends to polish D8122 within 1 to 2 hours after painting. Polishing after a longer time period leads to a strong increase of work and time.

kelly

www.kdsdetailing.co.uk


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## vtaylor78

All this has gone completly over my head now. I have a Merc with ceramic lacqure so i'm told. Is it safe for me to go ahead and get a small amount of swirls removed ? Or should i leave well alone and just polish & glaze and make it look as good as poss ?.
I realy need your advise guys as i'm booked in with a bodyshop in a weeks time.
Thanks,
Vince.


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## Mike Phillips

Gruffs said:


> Just to clarify Mike.
> 
> You are using the American MIL there (0.001") NOT the metric mm which is often referred to in the UK as a mil?


Yes.

The references made about mils are the American standard.


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## Mike Phillips

Ben Gum said:


> I'm not sure I understand the problem...


If you re-read my original post, I was sharing an experience a friend and fellow detailer had re-buffing out a brand new car that the dealership detailer hacked up.

He started running into problems getting the paint perfect and he's very good at this craft.

The point is that we think the "other" detailer, the "Dealership Detailer" may have used caveman compounds and chewed the really cool, high-tech nano particle portion of the factory Ceramiclear finish off the car.

The bigger point is to follow the sage advice of _*always using the least aggressive product to get the job done*_.

The problem is that not all detailers are knowledgeable about how to use the least aggressive product to get the job done and don't even know or have access to quality products. It's these people that can cause problems for others down the road when buffing on hi-tech paints.

:thumb:


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## jyrkiboy

This MB E-series solid black with ceramic coating has been washed hundreds of time in carwash (cab). I used woolpad but no pressure at all and low 600-900rpm. Fineshed with softer pads to remove holograms. You really have to be carefull with these ceramics. Lots of rds where left on paint.

Products used:
- Fixer with new CarPro wool ring pad, no pressure just weight of the mascine.
- Fixer with black finishing pad


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