# Mini JCW to Renault???



## mitchellinman (Jan 19, 2006)

Hi guys, need some advice....
I currently drive a jcw mini with everything on it! Including recaros. It's been remapped also and the power is incredible and instantly there but the car needs to be driven 100% and does not really ever cruise.

I'm looking to break away from the mini after 6 years and 4 of them later I'm looking for a slightly larger car but is more sensible but still exciting to drive when I want to push it.

I'm looking to spend around 15k and needs to have warranty.

In short I've been looking at the Renault sport megane 250 rs after all the reviews are outstanding, I've been to test drive one yesterday and was disappointed with the power delivery...it has the power but was just a bit slow to arrive and not exciting there also was no sound at all!

But fantastic car for the money 16k 18k miles nearly 2 years warranty and room to haggle...needs a remap to get it alive though. 

Anyone have any thoughts? I know a few people have one on here would be good to get there opinions and mpg results as well.

Cheers


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## durmz (Nov 2, 2010)

The mini has a supercharger, the megane has a turbo, two very different power deliveries, I do love the look of the megane very smart.


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## j4m1e (Apr 24, 2012)

If he's had it for 6 years will be a supercharger, you will just have to change the way you drive it


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## mitchellinman (Jan 19, 2006)

Sorry I seem to have confused people with the way I wrote that...my current car in question is the newer R56 jcw turbo.
I was referring to I've had 4 mins in the past 6 years hence wanting something different


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

I doubt you will have much warranty left on a 15k Megane RS. 

I doubt I will ever go French again. Every French car I've been in and the one have been full of rattles and creaks. 

Usually unreliable too. 

Although minis usually rattle too.


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## mitchellinman (Jan 19, 2006)

The one I looked at was 16k but could get that down a bit with haggling and finance and had 18 months warranty left.
The one I test drove was solid no creaks or rattles and miles more comfortable than the mini even with the cup pack.


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## gotamintvtr (Sep 25, 2006)

i have a jcw with 230bhp and absolutlely love it. i had a saxo (french car) but build quality on french cars puts me off.


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## SteveTDCi (Feb 8, 2006)

I don't see what you are going to be gaining, if you don't want the full on commitment of the mini I don't see how the Renault is going to be any different. I don't know if you could stretch your budget but for 22k I would go for the new focus st or look towards a golf gti or scirocco r


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## bigmc (Mar 22, 2010)

Focus ST?


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## madstaff (Jun 4, 2012)

French hot hatches - fast, fun, but fragile.

After years of VAG cars broke away and had a 197, had it from 3 months old/1200 miles got rid a couple of years later at 20000miles and a gearbox with a knacked 4th gear syncro (not due to driver error either).

Glad to be back in VAG now.


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## MidlandsCarCare (Feb 18, 2006)

Have you looked at BMW 135i? Linear power delivery - the Twin Turbo 3L is awesome with a remap too!


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## Jammy J (May 5, 2012)

Have you looked into BMWs?


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## D.Taylor R26 (Feb 5, 2012)

if your looking for something that will cruise as well as go like stink then power delivery like the rs250 is surely what youd be looking for? 

if not id consider the mk2 focus RS i guess. perhaps it was just the shock of going from a slightly tuned car back to a std one. it can make things feel a bit tame sometimes until you get used to a smoother power delivery and a duller throttle response.


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## Alex_225 (Feb 7, 2008)

As much as there are plenty of tales of badly built Renaults, rattles etc. I've had 8 Renaults, four of which have been RenaultSport models.

I've never experienced an unreliable example of a Renault to be honest. Ok so some of the higher mileage examples have had a few rattles, they've have normal niggles but no catastrophic reliability problems!

But one thing I can tell you is RenaultSport make a fantastic hot hatch. From the MKI Clio 172 to the RS250, they are all highly reverred as brilliant drivers cars. Plust they've also significantly improved their build quality in more recent years as well.

http://www.evo.co.uk/carreviews/evocarreviews/244294/renaultsport_megane_250_cup.html

I've not been in the 250 Megane but have been in a non-RS model. The percieved quality is there, feels more solid and not typically 'French' as people would think. Must closer to what you would think of a VW than a Renault.

I'm not disputing people's bad experiences but gone are the days of cheap, tinny Renaults!


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## possul (Nov 14, 2008)

I dont see how you can expect a car such as those not to rattle. There so stiff there is now way they can be rattle proof. If a standard golf has some rattles then surely an rs megane is acceptable.
Focus st with a remap is a good shout. Can see 300bhp with dealer montune upgrades


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## Alex_225 (Feb 7, 2008)

possul said:


> I dont see how you can expect a car such as those not to rattle. There so stiff there is now way they can be rattle proof.


That is a very good point. I mean look at the low profile tyres most hot hatches have paired up with very stiff suspension.

Certainly the 'Cup' versions of the RenaultSports I've owned/driven you couldn't possibly expect it not to eventually have a few rattles. Then again though, every car with a few miles on it I've been in or drive, be it VAG, Ford and even the fast Jap motors like the Impreza or Evo has had a few rattles!


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## possul (Nov 14, 2008)

Ok I haven't driven them all to be fair, only one I have driven is a 197 clio. Yeah it did have some rattles but you put that a side purely for the fact that its such a good drive. If it puts a smile on your face then thats all that matters. Turn the radio up or something!
Ya not wrong. 40 profile max really isn't it. 35 getting more common.
Personally if ya don't want rattles those type of cars aren't for you. If it was a BMW 5 series, Passat, mondeo then yeah thats different


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## mitchellinman (Jan 19, 2006)

135i is a good shout but you can't get one with warranty for my money plus I presume higher running costs.
I'm watching the prices of the tts but then I get gready and want an s-tronic.
I don't want a new car like the new st as I lost farrrr too much on my previous mini which I could not take the hit again.
I know the megane will depreciate but I'm in no rush and hope to get a good deal somewhere.
The megane build quality actually amazed me I'd actually put it ahead of the mini. There was actually no rattles at all!
I've just been reading that you need to hold traction button on the megane and it livens everything up!


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## Guitarjon (Jul 13, 2012)

Focus ST sounds like a good shout. No experience of the car other than the older mondeo STs (not the same I know but still). 

I wouldn't quibble buying a ford if I wasn't too much into my softtops lol. The other half is buying a new fiesta in the next year or so, looked around a couple and I have to say they look great for the price. 

French always look great on paper but having owned french hot hatches I am not keen. The engines are bullet proof but the materials they are made from, suspension components and general craftmanship is lacking a lot compared to other brands. Decent buy if they are nearly new but wouldn't own one more than 3 years old. Still a RS does seem to be a little bit better build quality than the regular renults.


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## cbr6fs (Aug 15, 2011)

I do crack a grin every time i read someone slatting "French" cars, more times than not their only experience driving "French" cars was in 10 years old Saxo's.

France has produced some absolutely terrible cars, but then so has Germany, Japan, UK etc etc etc.
To write off an entire countries car production based on 1 or 2 cars is pretty ridiculous IMO.


The Mrs had a Megane 225 for several years and we didn't have a single problem in that time.
The bro-in-law has a garage that specialises in Renault so i've driven several examples and they're a fantastic car, with no real problems.

I am surprised by your test drive though, as in my experience the 250 pulls very well even from low revs, to the point where if the one you drove was that bad it might be worth trying a different car as to me it seems that the one you drove wasn't right.

I'd also bag a drive in a 225 as well as this would be my choice out of the 2, the 225 just feels a little purer to me.


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## SteveTDCi (Feb 8, 2006)

My 206 is my first French car and will also be my last.


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

cbr6fs said:


> I do crack a grin every time i read someone slatting "French" cars, more times than not their only experience driving "French" cars was in 10 years old Saxo's.
> 
> France has produced some absolutely terrible cars, but then so has Germany, Japan, UK etc etc etc.
> To write off an entire countries car production based on 1 or 2 cars is pretty ridiculous IMO.
> ...


Anytime any trustworthy car survey is carried out you can guarantee that French cars will hold a lot of the bottom positions.

I know a lot of people who have owned French cars and most say they would never buy another.

I had an 09 Citroen C5 2.0 and although as a motorway cruiser it was fine, it spent something ridiculous like 16 weeks over 18 months in the garage.

The dealers were hopeless and Citroen were not even interested when I contacted them directly.

Also look at any of the French cars second hand values. The newest hot Clios and Meganes are a little better just now, but the rest you are lucky if they have retained 30% of their value after 3 years.

Buying any new car is always going to cost a fortune. Buying a French car new costs a whole lot more.


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## bigmc (Mar 22, 2010)

Kerr said:


> Anytime any reliable car survey is carried out you can guarantee that French cars will hold a lot of the bottom positions.


You can also guarantee that the marques people assume are reliable aren't even in the top 10. I've had a few french cars and they've had problems but I would still buy again as they have more character than a german eurobox.


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

bigmc said:


> You can also guarantee that the marques people assume are reliable aren't even in the top 10. I've had a few french cars and they've had problems but I would still buy again as they have more character than a german eurobox.


Without a doubt some cars should do better, but French cars consistently do rubbish for a reason.

Also when you are paying premium prices for a BMW, merc or Audi you expect things to be better.

Hence why many would complain about little issues that French car drivers will pass off as "character".


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## Alex_225 (Feb 7, 2008)

French cars do have character but not due to flaws or faults. I'm not saying the French have the worlds best reliability but they do make quirky, interesting cars at times.

I have known many a car driver who has owned a French car and never again. My mum was one of them back in 2001 when the Clio she had was a total lemon. That said she now owns a Twingo Gordini TCE (1.2 turbo) and it's been faultless.

I don't know how ********** this site is : http://www.reliabilityindex.com/ but their lists seem interesting enough. Top ten most reliable :

1	Kia Picanto
2	Vauxhall Agila	
3	Honda HR-V	
4	Suzuki Alto	
5	Ford Fiesta	
6	Toyota Corolla
7	Suzuki Ignis	
8	Volvo S40	
9	Honda Jazz	
10	Mazda 2

Top ten least reliable :

1	Mercedes-Benz SL	
2	Mercedes-Benz CL	
3	Land Rover Range Rover	
4	Mercedes-Benz S-Class	
5	Renault Espace	
6	Jeep Grand Cherokee	
7	Mercedes-Benz V-Class	
8	Nissan Pathfinder	
9	Land Rover Freelander
10	BMW 7 Series

There's only one French car in bottom of that list, the majority are premium brands and one Jap car in there as well. Looking through that site the Clio and 207 is above the VW Polo so I don't think it's as clear cut as saying 'All French cars are crap'.

They're not perfect but from my own experience they are no more or less reliable than the average Vauxhaul or Ford or even VAG for that matter.


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

Seen that survey before and didn't think it added up well. 

The have the ratio set too high for cost of repairs. Hence why you have ended up with many of the biggest and most expensive cars to repair at the bottom.

The little KIA might have broken down 10 times but cost only a few quid to repair each time, yet all the Mercs might have one major failing and be scored below. 

The calculations were too heavily based on cost of repair and a Merc with a big engine getting fixed at a main dealer is always going to cost.


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## xJay1337 (Jul 20, 2012)

Golf GTI.
No argument. It's the best all round hot hatch. And not just saying that as a VAG fan.

It's reliable, comfortable, economical, quick, easily tuned, easily personalized for not much wonga, lots of parts and specialists about. You can rag it around a track and drive home in perfect comfort.

A GTI Mk5 will cost from £5k upwards (yes some are cheaper than DIESELS!!!) due to running costs (tax can be quite expensive and percieved low MPG but it's not bad in reality) and a few mods costing under £1500 (mapping exhaust intercooler and what not) will have knocking on 250-260bhp. 
Get a S3 or an Edition 30 and you can have 300bhp+ very easily.


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## bigmc (Mar 22, 2010)

A golf gti isn't a fun car though, they're too vanilla. Do most things good but nothing really well.


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## xJay1337 (Jul 20, 2012)

Some people like ice cream.
They are bags of fun especially if you know how to drive them.. lift off oversteer is at your beck and call, the Mk5 chassis is a wonderful thing. Plus in terms of an all round package which is what people really want unless you're minted enough to have 2 or 3 cars, can't beat it. 
Focus ST is close but less efficient, much worse on fuel and interior is not quite as nice (not bad though). Plus you can buy them in Fake Tan Orange.


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

xJay1337 said:


> Golf GTI.
> No argument. It's the best all round hot hatch. And not just saying that as a VAG fan.
> 
> It's reliable, comfortable, economical, quick, easily tuned, easily personalized for not much wonga, lots of parts and specialists about. You can rag it around a track and drive home in perfect comfort.
> ...


Although it is a good all rounder, it is left too far behind in terms of performance and handling.

Without worrying about going down the remap route there is already plenty of hot hatches with 250+bhp.

If I was spending my own money I would go for a Mazda 3 MPS.


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## Lowiepete (Mar 29, 2009)

Kerr said:


> Anytime any trustworthy car survey is carried out you can guarantee that French cars will hold a lot of the bottom positions.


Where? Where? Where?

Instead of using wild generalisations like that, do your research properly. Back
on topic, in almost every review I've read on the Renault hot hatches in 
comparison articles, the conclusion has almost always been that, despite a 
higher cost or lower power or other minor difference, the Renault wins on 
sheer fun and joy to drive! I think it's the racing pedigree of the Renault
Alpine guys who design the Renault Sport cars which brings this to the table.

I'm minded of James May's claim to the ruination of cars because of testing 
on a well known German circuit. My Laguna Coupe suffers from that. I blame
Renault for being enticed by a perceived and probably non-existant German
market then taking their very Francophile basis of a fast and comfortable 
tourer and attempting to make it fit an untested and fickle Euro market. 
They can and are being justifiably slated for it!

The one thing about this Renault, faultless after 3.5 years, is the wonderful
build quality! Renault, through their racing pedigree have brought petrol turbo 
technology to its zenith of reliability. So, I've got a very fast and stylish car 
with classic lines that has been worth every penny of its depreciation.

If French cars were so poor, why are there so many that are now the subject
of loving restorations? OP, I hope you fully enjoy your Renault, there's not 
much reason not to!

Regards,
Steve


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## D.Taylor R26 (Feb 5, 2012)

Very few of the above are going to be available with any warrenty remaining (focus ST, mk5 golf etc) 

A RS250 would still have a good amount remaining. The mk3 focus ST would be another contender but I'm not sure how much ford are wanting for them. A very good mix of looks, performance and decent mpg with the new ecoboost engines. 

I'd have looked at an R26R though in your position (no warrenty and not practical though lol)

Dave


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## xJay1337 (Jul 20, 2012)

Yawn. 



Kerr said:


> Although it is a good all rounder, it is left too far behind in terms of performance and handling.
> 
> Without worrying about going down the remap route there is already plenty of hot hatches with 250+bhp.
> 
> If I was spending my own money I would go for a Mazda 3 MPS.


Handling it can hold its own with the current gen. Not the best but not the worst either. Don't forget the Mk6 carries on the trend and is better and up there with the rest.
I agree the stock power seems to lack now but unlike the other hatches at the time it could actually use it's power (unlike the VXR). It was a usable amount of power not just the pub figures. Not only that but with 250bhp it holds it a lot better than the VXR, for a start it can drive in a straight line lol.

The Mazda 3 MPS, never driven one but reading on E38 forums this morning about someone who wants one, owners on the site are reporting dodgy handling and crap MPG.


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

Lowiepete said:


> Where? Where? Where?
> 
> Instead of using wild generalisations like that, do your research properly. Back
> on topic, in almost every review I've read on the Renault hot hatches in
> ...


Every year when they do the reliability surveys in autoexpress and autocar etc.

In the last year there has been 3 major safety vosa recalls on the Megane. Steering failing, airbags not working and cracked wheel hubs.

3 major safety issues on the new car.

Let's not forget all the electrical gremlins of the last car where the passanger could activate the brakes by pressing the floor on the passangers side.

The new Clio only has one safety recall for engines exploding on the 1.2.

The Citroen C4 has nearly a dozen recalls in 3 years. Many major safety issues due to poor build quality.

The new Citroen C5 also has about a dozen safety recalls due to poor build quality.

The lists are very long and back up exactly my opinion.


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

I'm not questioning that they aren't fun or good handling cars. 

The French have always made good handling hot hatch backs.


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## D.Taylor R26 (Feb 5, 2012)

Just an observation but its quite funny how much other cars are getting slated due to the reviews from top gear. 

A show well all know to be rubbish.


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

The Pug 207 has had 13 recalls and the 307 21 recalls. 

These are all official Vosa recalls. 

Any argument that this doesn't highlight poor build quality?


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## gex23 (Mar 6, 2009)

Never had an issue with the 172 cup or 197 that i've owned. So much so that my next upgrade will be to a Megane R26. Nothing offers quite the poise, excitement or feedback that these hot hatches delivers.

Evo seem to agree too - slightly more reliable than Top Gear .

Love the stereotypical views though:lol:


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## Lowiepete (Mar 29, 2009)

Kerr said:


> The new Clio only has one safety recall for engines exploding on the 1.2.
> 
> The Citroen C4 has nearly a dozen recalls in 3 years. Many major safety issues due to poor build quality.
> 
> ...





Kerr said:


> The Pug 207 has had 13 recalls and the 307 21 recalls.
> 
> These are all official Vosa recalls.


However, what your figures also show is that Renault has had the fewest,
which shows them to be the best of the bunch by some margin. Also, on a 
limited run production, which the RS is, when compared to wholesale mass 
production, I'd expect there to be some issues - that's just a numbers game. 
IMO, that there are so few is actually quite remarkable!

Every manufacturer, even at the top end, has produced their "Friday afternoon"
car at some point. It's still no reason not to buy and doesn't justify your 
negative generalisations. It also begs the question, why have you only picked 
upon French cars? Even the Autocar guys preferred a RenaultSport Clio over 
a Mini Cooper no less...

Regards,
Steve


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## xJay1337 (Jul 20, 2012)

To be honest Pete there are a lot of electrical issues with many major french cars.
You say the RS is limited production but being honest it's not so limited that there'll ever be a point where you go to a dealer and they say "no sorry".
Like the Corsa "limited edition".
500 cars per dealer. And if you think they sell say, 100 a year....you're good for the models life span.

We're not really debating how they are to drive (only some of them are good, a lot of regular sort of cars eg 206, 307, many Citroens have bad steering and soft wolly suspension) but more like how they are to live with really. Things are better now in the very newest generation but 5-10 years ago, not so much.


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## SteveTDCi (Feb 8, 2006)

Mazda 3 MPS is a good shout


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## gex23 (Mar 6, 2009)

VW have their fair share of issues - DSG / Coilpack issues anyone? 

Not saying that Renault are perfect - but I know of many well over 100 / 120k (RenaultSport variants).

Also, my Renaults have rattled far less than the two VAG cars i've owned.

Such polarised views of a car from a particular country I find at best jaded and at worst pathetic.

Driving pleasure > Bland day to day box  (IMO of course)


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## cbr6fs (Aug 15, 2011)

gex23 said:


> Never had an issue with the 172 cup or 197 that i've owned. So much so that my next upgrade will be to a Megane R26. Nothing offers quite the poise, excitement or feedback that these hot hatches delivers.
> 
> Evo seem to agree too - slightly more reliable than Top Gear .
> 
> Love the stereotypical views though:lol:


:lol:

To be honest anyone that sums up a car by it's geological location has THAT little of experience with cars that their opinion is pretty invalid from the off.

Absolutely ridiculous and ignorant to judge cars on their manufacturers historical location :lol:

I have owned Renault's, Peugeot's, Citroen's etc.
Some have been unbelievably terrible, others have been absolutely fantastic cars.
It's no different to any other countries cars produced, 2 of the worst cars i've driven were German, (A-class Mercedes and the ML55).

Being a rational human being though i don't write off M3's or all other German cars simply because i don't like 2 of them, if i did that'd be very very silly.

Another thing to consider is that, in this day and age it's very rare for a manufacturer to produce a car completely, some cars will share engines (Renault and Nissan share engines), others share the entire rolling platform.

So when you consider that, it's even more ridiculous to judge cars by their country of origin.

Lastly, i'd bet a clean pair of underpants the vast vast majority of the members here would clamber over their grandparents to get a drive in one of these cars.










Yep Bugatti is a FRENCH car company :thumb:


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## cbr6fs (Aug 15, 2011)

Would also add that my bro-in-law has his own garage that specialises in Renault, he works on these cars 6 days a week 10 hours a day.
So he knows every little dirty secret that the vast majority of Renaults have.

What does he drive?
Megane 225


His business partner?
Megane 225


Another mate is a mechanic for a BMW dealer, what does he drive?
Clio sport


I'm not saying Renault haven't made some terrible cars, just that you cannot sum up a car simply by where it's manufacturer is based.


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

There is a few exceptions to the rule but I stand by my opinion that common French and Italian cars are poorly built.

Spend 10 minutes looking through Vosa vehicle recalls for serious safety defects and the amount of recalls for French and Italian cars is nothing short of scary.

The amount of cars recalled year after year for the very same faults too.

We aren't talking one or two cars here either, Vosa keep 20 years worth of records.


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## cbr6fs (Aug 15, 2011)

Kerr said:


> There is a few exceptions to the rule but I stand by my opinion that common French and Italian cars are poorly built.
> 
> Spend 10 minutes looking through Vosa vehicle recalls for serious safety defects and the amount of recalls for French and Italian cars is nothing short of scary.
> 
> ...


That's your opinion and your welcome to it.

The facts still remain the same though, that even IF all French cars had problems most drive THAT well i'd happily put up with it. :thumb:

The worst car with regards to reliability i've owned in the last 10 years was a 335, it needed 3 tow trucks in the 6 months or so i drove it, we literately had nothing but problems with it.
In the 6 odd months i had it, i had the following replaced:
Both Fuel Pumps
O2 Sensor
Injectors
A/C Evaporator
Ignition Coils
HID leveller

We thrashed the hell out the Mrs 225 for years and apart from routine service only replaced 1 set of coils and a fuel pump.

Take a gander at the various E46 M3 forums and search for "rear sub frame failure" or "Vanos problems" it's enough to put you off German cars for life :lol:


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## Lowiepete (Mar 29, 2009)

cbr6fs said:


> I'm not saying Renault haven't made some terrible cars, just that you cannot sum up a car simply by where it's manufacturer is based.


Absolutely! The OP wants... _a slightly larger car but is more sensible but still 
exciting to drive when I want to push it._. The Megane fits the bill perfectly!

Regards,
Steve


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

cbr6fs said:


> That's your opinion and your welcome to it.
> 
> The facts still remain the same though, that even IF all French cars had problems most drive THAT well i'd happily put up with it. :thumb:
> 
> ...


Yup, you get some lemons and I know quite a few BMW drivers with problems.

Half the people that join up to member forums often only join for assistance because they are having issues.

I'm not saying my 335i has been bulletproof as I had the actuator issue which is common and many cars were recalled by BMW and not enforced through Vosa, to replace a big batch of injectors that were found to be at fault.

Neither of the issues cause any running issues and were fixed at my convenience.

Every model in the outgoing E9x range seems to have one or two weak points.

Although not the greatest things to happen they aren't big problems and don't require Vosa to issue a vehicle recall and safety grounds.

As for the E46 M3, I thought that BMW had sorted out the issues with the engine and they also give a lifetime warranty on the subframe do they not?

Have a laugh reading through some of the Vosa recalls. A lot of the French/Italian cars are covered with brakes may suddenly fail, steering may suddenly fail, can suddenly catch fire etc.

The E9x BMWs have two recalls one for the convertible and one the rest over a 2 month period about potentially faulty side airbags.

You get good and bad cars in every range but through my own experience through personal experience, also through friends, family and workmates with general reliability studies and Vosa recalls nothing will convince me that any of the big French manufacturers make well built cars.


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## xJay1337 (Jul 20, 2012)

cbr6fs said:


> :lol:
> 
> Lastly, i'd bet a clean pair of underpants the vast vast majority of the members here would clamber over their grandparents to get a drive in one of these cars.
> 
> ...


Quite the LOL at yourself.
Everything on that car was designed and built by Germans. (although Assembly is in France by mainly german people)
VAG engine VAG gearbox Vag suspension Vag interior.


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## SteveTDCi (Feb 8, 2006)

My cupra doen't rattle and drives fine .... Our puma that we owned from new only cost me a set of pads and discs In 10 years ... Not even an exhaust or battery. My 206, exhaust, cat, lambda sensor, head gasket, map sensor, crank sensor, plugs, and it rattles and it seems like mines a good one, oh and that's in 12 months. The front suspension squeaks and the exhaust keeps working its way loose .... Never again will I buy French, and someone at work has a new megane, that's just had the dash removed because the air con was blowing hot out of one side and cold out of the other air vent ... The worst cars we have run on our fleet ... 2 scenics and a laguna, although the 2008/9 focus is giving them a run for its money. Still the megane still holds the record for being the only car on the fleet to require anew engine, oh and the laguna threw its feel pipe off on delivery and the wife's Renault broke down when it was new on its first trip home ...... French cars are cheap for a reason ....


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## gex23 (Mar 6, 2009)

Kerr said:


> Yup, you get some lemons and I know quite a few BMW drivers with problems.
> 
> Half the people that join up to member forums often only join for assistance because they are having issues.
> 
> ...





SteveTDCi said:


> My cupra doen't rattle and drives fine .... Our puma that we owned from new only cost me a set of pads and discs In 10 years ... Not even an exhaust or battery. My 206, exhaust, cat, lambda sensor, head gasket, map sensor, crank sensor, plugs, and it rattles and it seems like mines a good one, oh and that's in 12 months. The front suspension squeaks and the exhaust keeps working its way loose .... Never again will I buy French, and someone at work has a new megane, that's just had the dash removed because the air con was blowing hot out of one side and cold out of the other air vent ... The worst cars we have run on our fleet ... 2 scenics and a laguna, although the 2008/9 focus is giving them a run for its money. Still the megane still holds the record for being the only car on the fleet to require anew engine, oh and the laguna threw its feel pipe off on delivery and the wife's Renault broke down when it was new on its first trip home ...... French cars are cheap for a reason ....


And yet in the 30k miles of 'french' unreliable motoring - i've never had an issue.

Couple that with the composed RenaultSport chassis that will always be one giving tonnes of feedback and poise, i'm happy 

Got to love the fact that my OHs 206 HDI which is now on 60k miles has NEVER had an issue, and NEVER had an advisory during an MOT and only required consumables too - while my parents brand new MB A Class and former brand new Ford mundanos have required extensive warranty work - who'd of thought it eh?

Also 'xJayy1337' - Not heard of the MK4 and 5 golf DSG issues, coupled with coilpack defects and MAF issues then? (on 1.8t lumps?) - if I was like you i'd immediately stereotype VWs as unreliable ..... just as well we aren't all blinkered eh?


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## cbr6fs (Aug 15, 2011)

Kerr said:


> Yup, you get some lemons and I know quite a few BMW drivers with problems.
> 
> Half the people that join up to member forums often only join for assistance because they are having issues.
> 
> ...


You also have to take into consideration that cars of the same manufacturer and even the same model are often different.

I've had a MX5 for the last 10 years and although it's not been my daily it has been tracked and raced many times each year.
We drove from the UK to Greece, and a few Greece to the UK and back again trips in it.

Apart from a few failures that were 100% my fault (wrong supercharger pulley bolts) it's been problem free, this at around twice he power level it left the factory at 18 years ago.

So impressed was a mate at work that he went out and bought a MKII (NB).
I went with him to look over the car and found i knew the owner and knew the car so win win :thumb:

In the 3 years or so he's had the car, he's had 2 replacement motors, 2 replacement sills, 2 sets of front wheel bearings, 2 radiators, 1 new set of poly bushes and 2 fuel pumps.

It's not even as though he's particularly hard on his cars, he's 45 and drives very steady, yet for some strange reason he just seems to have so many problems with this 1 car.

You also have to take into consideration the bracket a car is aimed at.
A BMW is likely to be a company car, so usually will be higher mileage but well serviced.
A Renault Clio sport is not likely to be a company car, and although the first owner is likely to service it well, once it starts getting 5 years old the servicing tends to slip and be carried out by independent garages, the vast majority of which in my experience wouldn't know their bum from their elbow with more modern cars.

So you have to look at the car and tailor your inspection around what sort of life that sort of car is likely to have had.



xJay1337 said:


> Quite the LOL at yourself.
> Everything on that car was designed and built by Germans. (although Assembly is in France by mainly german people)
> VAG engine VAG gearbox Vag suspension Vag interior.


Please read my post again and put it into the context of my response.

My response was aimed at people that write off certain cars simply because the cars manufacturing companies geographical location.

With that in my i stated:


cbr6fs said:


> Yep Bugatti is a FRENCH car company :thumb:


The emphasis being "*Bugatti is a FRENCH car company*" that has nothing to do with what parts are made, design, fitted by what car group.


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## xJay1337 (Jul 20, 2012)

I see. I was just thinking since it was a debate about french vs other car manufactures, to bring up Bugatti as French, when it is, for all intents and purposes, German...seems a bit tilted.
Like saying you're driving a Bentley Continental which is the best of British Power.. no, it's German.



gex23 said:


> Also 'xJayy1337' - Not heard of the MK4 and 5 golf DSG issues, coupled with coilpack defects and MAF issues then? (on 1.8t lumps?) - if I was like you i'd immediately stereotype VWs as unreliable ..... just as well we aren't all blinkered eh?


Well "gex23". 
Yes i have heard of the issues. I am not blind or ignorant to the "common faults" (most of which are cheap to fix). Every car has it's problems and VWs are not exceptions to that but in terms of problem quanity, cost of repair, likelihood of it occurring... 
That being said, the DSG is not a "common issue" as you describe - normally it's due to poor maintenance regarding the oil changes on early boxes. After 2006 99% of the boxes are trouble free. The issue is when they do go, it's normally quite expensive for the Mechatronics unit and obviously upset owners like to complain about it, hence why it seems to be a "common" fault when it's more like 5 or 6 out of every 100 cars and 4 of those cars at fault have had services skimped. (only a tiny percentage are due to an actual genuine failure)

There is not any "MAF" issues. MAFs are a service type item with a lifespan and like any electronic and sensitive component, do fail from time to time. 
Most Mk4s are over 12 years old many have done over 100k and I think an £80 (exchange your old sensor) part going after 12 years is pretty good going. Problem is people have a MAF go, replace it with a cheap non-genuine part which fails after 3 months. They buy a "new" one from Ebay or another Motor Discount centre, it fails again.. never ending circle.
If you replace with an OE MAF from VW you'll have no issues for years to come...

As for coilpacks these are subject to a *completely free recall* for all affected 1.8T and 2.0T engines so I don't know why you're complaining about that.. VW are repairing all cars affected for free!! Regardless of age, mileage or service history..

I am not "assuming" french cars are unreliable. My sister had a 1.2 Clio. Base spec. Mechanically was good but loads of stupid electrical issues. My Dad had a Renault ages ago - was so bad he ended up scrapping it, engine was well serviced but pissing water through the cylinder liners and leaking oil everywhere, bodywork was tatty, suspension rotted to hell and was generally nothing but trouble the entire time it was owned.
An old friend has a 2002 Espace and the interior trim was literally falling apart. There's a guy who likes those Citroen Xantias around here and he's got about 3 or 4 of them, 2 of them are rusted to hell, one of them is waiting for a new engine because it "let go" and one has that Hydrogas suspension which has collapsed. Ex-flatmate had a Megane which wasn't too bad inside (but nothing special) but was very wallow in terms of ride and the steering was dreadful. "Am I going left or right here?"

Don't get me wrong I love the Clio 200 and those Citroen DS's from decades ago were brilliant pieces of engineering, but I _personally _would not buy a new French car due to depreciation and after 3-5 years when the warranty and any manufacturer Goodwill runs out I would not like to be around to foot the repair bill when the dashboard falls off or the power steering fails.

I'd buy a year to 18 month old Clio 200 or something as a weekend blaster if I wanted but being honest I'd rather have an R32 (Which I could "sort" with high quality suspension and turbo charging) for the price of a Clio, and then I could strip the expensive parts after 2-3 years and sell the car for £1500 less than I bought it (rather than £6000 less as you would with the Renault) and still make some money back on the performance parts.


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## gex23 (Mar 6, 2009)

So you're comparing all Renaults to a base spec clio and a 2002 Espace? Brilliant.

And yet my 197 - No issues, driven to 8k every day, does 15k a year (A lot of this hard B road driving) - still no rattles, pulls well, engine idles perfectly, not a spot of rust and looks immaculate - must be a one off eh? 

Oh and an R32 is NOT a weekend car, it's more of a GT - I say this as a friend has owned his MKIV R32 for nearly 2 years now - and guess what his weekend car is? A Peugeot 205 with GTi-6 lump and coilovers - who'd of thought


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## xJay1337 (Jul 20, 2012)

No, I'm not comparing all Renaults. I'm saying that's my PERSONAL EXPERIENCE from the first hand, and that seeing new models in dealerships and reading owner reports aren't instilling me with confidence in the very latest model ranges.
And again, regardless of specification level, base or top spec, it's just buttons at the end of the day. And if a low spec one has electrical problems then imagine what a highly specced one could have!

That's good for your 197 isn't it. Redlining your car won't normally shorten the lifespan but hey good going. Not at all a one off mate and no need to be so defensive about your little clio..

For _me_ as I was talking personally an R32 would be a perfect weekend car. (and when I say weekend car, I mean non-daily, fun drive). If I wanted a "weekend weapon" I would buy another bike.

I do mega miles, upwards of 30k a year - Normally my TDI would be the weapon of choice however I could also take the R32 around if I wanted..
Because even as a weekend car I would like a modicum of comfort as I would also take it to shows etc.

My sisters boyfriend had a 1.9 205gti and I don't remember that going wrong once. Interior though was dreadful and horrible in every way.
I'm not saying they are all bad but for quality of materials and construction they are a lot better now than before but not the best.

Especially between 2000 and 2007 they were particularly bad.. just look at the recalls!!

I can admit VAGs aren't perfect, but you seem to be unable to accept the flaws in French cars.
Mine for example has had about £1800 in repairs alone but to be fair the only thing to fail that wasn't a result of me doing something to do it (tuning and what not) was an alternator (£450) and fuel temperature sensor (£40). If it was standard I don't think it would have needed uprated clutches, flywheels or boost pipes replacing due to them popping off. At 137k now I think an alternator and a flywheel is pretty good going. It also passed all it's MOTs until the last one which it failed on (only) a lower control arm bush...(I just upgraded to GTI suspension arms instead)


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## gex23 (Mar 6, 2009)

I wasn't being defensive, merely pointing out that they aren't all quite that bad - annoying and give you a headache yes - but on the right B road they're an awesome point to point choice.

We'll just have to agree to disagree:thumb:


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## xJay1337 (Jul 20, 2012)

Agreed bud.


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## Bod42 (Jun 4, 2009)

I agree with the OP that the Megane 250 feels slow compared with a Mini S from experience. Wait all Renault lovers before you lay into me. I'm not saying that the Megane is slow, what Hot hatch with 250bhp is, but its the bigger more comfy car that makes the sensation more subdued.

The mini is small, light, low and feels like a go kart so every little movement is tranferred back to the driver. I have been in BMW M5 crusing along not thinking much of it and you look across and your doing 120+ but you dont realise as the sensation of speed is less in a larger car.

My Mrs had a Mini S, not JCW, and driving that felt faster than my Subaru, obviously it wasnt its just the sensation.


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## hibberd (Jul 5, 2006)

Reliability and reliability studies are nice but dont always help you. What is reliable..wheels dropping off or engine parts whistling around your ears? Or is it the electronics causing the lights to flash on you? Most of the big cars and most of the german cars are full of electronics and this is terribly unreliable, their mechanics are usually sound..little cars tend to be cheap so are not proped full of tooters and bellers so are more reliable. In reply to the original question, try to get the car for a weekend and not just a test drive, go with it for a long run and see how you get out of the car afterwards, makes a big difference. On the reliabuility side of it..warm the engine and gearbox up properly before you go wild and most cars will stay good..thrash it cold and expect problems..you as a driver have a huge influence over reliability, listen to what the car tells you and look for things that point to problems..


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