# useing a sealant on top of wax



## DimGR (Jun 7, 2009)

is it ok?


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## VIPER (May 30, 2007)

No really, no. You can't damage anything, it's just that it's the wrong way around and won't bond properly.

Should be Polish > Sealant > Wax


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## DimGR (Jun 7, 2009)

Finish Kare #1000P Hi Temp Sealant

that is the one i'm talking about 


so if i go ahead and apply it am i gonna make a mess...? what if i rewax the car afterwards ?


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## stokie84 (Feb 7, 2009)

the way i do it

1 - polish

2 - seal

3 - wax

4 - seal again


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## roscopervis (Aug 22, 2006)

It will get washed off by the wax. The sealant needs to bond with something first otherwise it will just get wiped off. If it's over wax then it will just be swimming on the surface so it's a pointless step.


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## stokie84 (Feb 7, 2009)

sorry but all these people that say never seal over wax is a load off rubbish

i use to work for BMW and we did it the way ive said above and the sealent never washed away or wiped away,

saying that i did my corsa a few weeks back doing it the way ive said and its been washed 4times since and its lost none off its protection and still shines like it should!

IF YOU READ SOME LABELS ON SEALENTS IT TELLS YOU TO SEAL AFTER USING WAX, THERE ALL DIFFERENT DEPENDING ON WHAT YOUR USING!


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## fleagala (Apr 18, 2009)

stokie84 said:


> sorry but all these people that say never seal over wax is a load *off* rubbish
> 
> i *use *to work for BMW and we did it the way ive said above and the *sealent* never washed away or wiped away,
> 
> ...


If it worked, the more experienced members/pros would do it. But they dont..


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## badly_dubbed (Dec 11, 2008)

if i use both which is rare,

sealant goes down first.


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## xyber (Jan 4, 2008)

I use Z8 ontop of wax as the very final step and for gloss top ups and its fine.

Possibly abandoning wax on my met blue car though as some of the sealants these days look way better than wax


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## fleagala (Apr 18, 2009)

xyber said:


> I use Z8 ontop of wax as the very final step and for gloss top ups and its fine.
> 
> Possibly abandoning wax on my met blue car though as some of the sealants these days look way better than wax


With z8 and dodo red mist, what makes them different from other sealants? Like, how are they able to go over wax but normal sealants arent? (sorry for the hijack!)


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## -Kev- (Oct 30, 2007)

fleagala said:


> With z8 and dodo red mist, what makes them different from other sealants? Like, how are they able to go over wax but normal sealants arent? (sorry for the hijack!)


red mist and z8 are spray sealants for shine and protection top-up's after washes


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## fleagala (Apr 18, 2009)

I just realised that stokie thinks that sealant can go over wax because he thinks SRP is a wax... 
oops I just realised when I looked at another thread.


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## Avanti (Jan 17, 2006)

xyber said:


> I use Z8 ontop of wax as the very final step and for gloss top ups and its fine.
> 
> Possibly abandoning wax on my met blue car though as some of the sealants these days look way better than wax


Couldn't agree fully, especially after today applying Simoniz original to my own car, it does leave a look, you just cannot put your finger on to describe. The only sealants I have used are AG EGP, TW EG and TW EGP and Atermis. All of which suggest being applied after the AIO wax/polish.
Sometimes the higher gloss sealants leave can look false and blingy but it depends on what the owner likes really for lighter coloured cars then I suppose I would go along the sealant route, but for darker colours a higher carnauba content is the winner. Then of course there are the products with a bit of both flavours :speechles


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## fleagala (Apr 18, 2009)

I've used duragloss sealants. I loved the look of them till I used lusso revitalising creme with collinite 915 on my mums car today


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## Avanti (Jan 17, 2006)

fleagala said:


> I just realised that stokie thinks that sealant can go over wax because he thinks SRP is a wax...
> oops I just realised when I looked at another thread.


However TW EG goes on top of the precision wax , as does gloss protection, so it's not all cut and dry.


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## big rich (May 27, 2009)

Pit Viper said:


> No really, no. You can't damage anything, it's just that it's the wrong way around and won't bond properly.
> 
> Should be Polish > Sealant > Wax


thats the way i do it :thumb:


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## fleagala (Apr 18, 2009)

Avanti said:


> However TW EG goes on top of the precision wax , as does gloss protection, so it's not all cut and dry.


ok but we agree that to say a sealant can always go over a wax is misleading...?


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## Avanti (Jan 17, 2006)

fleagala said:


> ok but we agree that to say a sealant can always go over a wax is misleading...?


The advice sometimes floating around here is misleading and there is no 1 liner solution for the OP without him furnishing more info.
But it is no more misleading than saying a sealant always goes before the wax :buffer:


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## badly_dubbed (Dec 11, 2008)

you would be ok topping a wax with sealant after the wax has gassed off 

this is why i would only apply Z8 after a good 24hrs


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## Detail My Ride (Apr 19, 2006)

The main reason that the recommended order is:

Polish -> Glaze -> Seal -> Wax 

Is usually because if a sealant is applied onto an un-cured wax, the sealant will purely 'disturb' the oils in the wax, which will effect the reactions with the paint for both the wax and sealant, deeming them both pretty useless. 

Whereas, most sealants are Synthetic, and are not Carnuaba based, as are most waxes, which means their cure time is greatly reduced, which means that the risk of any product used on top affecting the sealant is incredibly minimal.

So, as long as you have allowed sufficient cure time, using a sealant on top of a Wax is perfectly fine. For example, the use of sealants such as Z8, and Red Mist are fine on top of Wax/Sealant, although are only recommended to be applied at least 12-24 hours after applying a Wax/Sealant.

I generally see no need to mix Wax/Sealants, its IMHO a waste of product, with the exception of for example:

Applying Dodo Juice Supernatural, following with Dodo Juice Red Mist after each Wash.

Applying Swissvax Best of Show, following with Zaino Z8 after each Wash.

Etc, etc.

Hope that helps,

Gaz


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## grayfox (Apr 15, 2008)

then you have opti-seal (which is a sealant) that can go over anything, but I would wait a day before putting anything else over that

What Gaz W said


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## Avanti (Jan 17, 2006)

Gaz W said:


> I generally see no need to mix Wax/Sealants, its IMHO a waste of product, with the exception of for example:
> 
> Applying Dodo Juice Supernatural, following with Dodo Juice Red Mist after each Wash.
> 
> Applying Swissvax Best of Show, following with Zaino Z8 after each Wash.


The money I would have splashed out on BOS or SN, they had be better damn good without the need for any top ups


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## caledonia (Sep 13, 2008)

First of all let us sort things out. The market have become cluttered with lots of Hybrid product. As in they have crossed over to the other side.
Yes there are true waxes and true sealant. But like everything else there have good points and bad.

This is where manufacturers have come in and taken the good point for both products and added it to there own. The Hybrid sealant or wax. Colly is a hybrid wax sealant. Others like Opti seal and Z8 are also in this category.

A true sealant will not apply over a wax layer. Oil and water don't mix. But add a alcohol substitute or a solvrnt to this and you get a hybrid. In which it etches into the wax layer creating a bond. This is why you have to wipe these product till the dry fully, so they don't smear. If badly applied then these products leave line and a distorted finish. Due to the wax being etched and left in lines after the alcohol evaporates.
So in short a true sealant will not bond over a wax layer even when dry or cured. But a Hybrid sealant will.

It is down to the individual if they believe they add anything to the finish. But ask yourselve on question if you have to apply a product over an other which product is laking the true finish. Is it necessary or is it just a marketing ploy.??

Gordon.


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## waxy (Feb 27, 2006)

caledonia said:


> First of all let us sort things out. The market have become cluttered with lots of Hybrid product. As in they have crossed over to the other side.
> Yes there are true waxes and true sealant. But like everything else there have good points and bad.
> 
> This is where manufacturers have come in and taken the good point for both products and added it to there own. The Hybrid sealant or wax. Colly is a hybrid wax sealant. Others like Opti seal and Z8 are also in this category.
> ...


Are you suggesting that Opti seal is not a pure sealant,but a 'hybrid'


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## caledonia (Sep 13, 2008)

Opti seal is a hybrid.
As in a true sealant requires a squeaky clean surface to bond or an acrylic base.
Opti seal is solvent based which in turns aids its drying and also help it bond to any surface.
Hybrids are not a bad thing they have there place as they benefit from both sides of the divide. Sealants are renowned for not having a great protection against Bird etching where wax has this benefit. So mesh these two product together and extra protection while maintaining the base layer.

Over the past couple of year these divides have been crossed so many time and the waters are become very murky between these two forms of protection. It is becoming harder to differentiate between these when it come to categorising products.
Gordon.


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## Auto Finesse (Jan 10, 2007)

As pit viper stated the proper order of things is, polish, seal, wax, the main reason being bonding, sealants dont really like bondnig properly to anything but dead clean paint, another issue is sealant is more durable that a wax so your wax will fail first and if its under a sealant it is likley to take it with it, waxes seem to suffer a little with heat (ie it will last longer on a silver car than a black) i guess its due to evaporation or, deterioration of some sort (im not a chemist so can tell you the ins and outs of that only what i have from my own experiance)

With regards to red mist and Z8 etc, these are really detail sprays with some sealant properties to add / top up your protection, not really intended as a stand alone LSP more as a easy top up product.



stokie84 said:


> sorry but all these people that say never seal over wax is a load off rubbish
> 
> i use to work for BMW and we did it the way ive said above and the sealent never washed away or wiped away,
> 
> ...


Not really mate i dont think you are talking about the same type of products we are, many product MFRs call cleaner polishes "waxes" and so on, you mean polish before wax. its more a case of people not really knowing the difference between a polish a wax and a sealant, or a glaze etc etc


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## VIPER (May 30, 2007)

stokie84 said:


> *sorry but all these people that say never seal over wax is a load off rubbish*
> i use to work for BMW and we did it the way ive said above and the sealent never washed away or wiped away,
> 
> saying that i did my corsa a few weeks back doing it the way ive said and its been washed 4times since and its lost none off its protection and still shines like it should!
> ...


Er, hold up! Choose your words a bit more carefully on here in future please! Telling people who are respected members on this site and who have been doing this for many years that they are talking 'rubbish' is a bit out of order, and when one of them is a Mod, (and considering your recent post history), it's not clever!


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## uruk hai (Apr 5, 2009)

Sorry to butt in but would I be right in thinking that the Polish - Seal - Wax system would be something like :-

AG SRP - AG EGP - Dodo Juice wax ?

And if so would this combination provide a good fairly long lasting shine and protection ?


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## caledonia (Sep 13, 2008)

uruk hai said:


> Sorry to butt in but would I be right in thinking that the Polish - Seal - Wax system would be something like :-
> 
> AG SRP - AG EGP - Dodo Juice wax ?
> 
> And if so would this combination provide a good fairly long lasting shine and protection ?


Yes this combo would work. It will also give good long lasting protection as the wax would be the sacrificial layer. EGP is a good sealant, but lacks a bit in protection from bird etching. But the wax will help. But not full proof.

As for shine and looks this falls into a different category Prep work which should never be over looked. If the prep id right then most if not all products will give you good effect.
Gordon.


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## uruk hai (Apr 5, 2009)

Thanks for that, can you recommend an alternative that you think might be a better sealer to the AG EGP ?


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## VIPER (May 30, 2007)

uruk hai said:


> Thanks for that, can you recommend an alternative that you think might be a better sealer to the AG EGP ?


On my limited use so far of Finish Kare #2180, I would suggest at least having a look at this as it's impressed me greatly (I am planning to get some on the Puma this afternoon if the weather brightens up a bit).


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## grayfox (Apr 15, 2008)

Pit Viper said:


> On my limited use so far of Finish Kare #2180, I would suggest at least having a look at this as it's impressed me greatly (I am planning to get some on the Puma this afternoon if the weather brightens up a bit).


Iv heard it needs some special attention though, no idea if it would be harder/easier to apply than egp as I havent used egp yet, but I get the impression its not your average joe sealant. Actually Iv just thought of a question - 'does anyone apply sealants via pc/ro? I cant really see the beneifits, but as I know most prefer to apply wax by hand I thought Id chuck it up.


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## VIPER (May 30, 2007)

grayfox said:


> Iv heard it needs some special attention though, no idea if it would be harder/easier to apply than egp as I havent used egp yet, but I get the impression its not your average joe sealant. Actually Iv just thought of a question - 'does anyone apply sealants via pc/ro? I cant really see the beneifits, but as I know most prefer to apply wax by hand I thought Id chuck it up.


Other way around for me. EGP is a decent product, but it's not the easiest thing to use (I'm fine with it, but for newbies to detailing, they will always put too much on). And the overly long waiting period between application is a major flaw with it imo. If you're using it inside, then not such a big deal, but outside all manner of things could have settled on the paintwork in the hour (or more) that it's advisable to leave it.

The FK # 2180, for me anyway, wasn't difficult to use, but I'll have a better idea when I've used it again later today. Yes it requires a fair bit of working into the surface, but the initial layer does 'melt in' and disappear leaving barely anything to buff off, so in that respect it's quite easy. I'm hoping to get 2 layers on (time and weather permitting), so I'll reserve final judgement on it until I've done this.

As for the machine application question, this is actually a sealant that lends itself very well to that method as, as I said above, it needs working into the surface a bit rather than a 'wipe on' type product. I'm only not using the DA because my neighbours are having guests around and a BBQ so it's unfair to have the noise going all afternoon, so by hand with MF pads it is this time 

Also see here:- http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=124060


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## stokie84 (Feb 7, 2009)

EGP is a great sealant, ive always use it and wont try anything else as its that good, it aint hard to use eitha IMO, easy on easy off, but like someone has said its the waiting to get it off that does let it down, you have wait 30-60mins before you can buff it off


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## fleagala (Apr 18, 2009)

I'd recommend duragloss 111. Great sealant


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## Bigpikle (May 21, 2007)

EGP is also let down by the time needed before layering, but TBH, its very cheap, easily available and leaves a cracking finish, so all in all makes a good product when used correctly eg over SRP ideally. I fell into the use 1/3rd bottle per car trap when I first started many years ago, especially using that horrendous polishing netting they sell, but once you realise how to do it thinly it does its job - in fact I may go and through a layer over a panle on my test car in a few mins as I havent used it in 2-3 years and fancy quickly trying it again :lol:

The FK2180 is a grower on me, and really is very easy, but you just need to realise it applies slightly differently, as it melts into the paint and doesnt leave a haze etc to buff off, if you get it on fairly thinly. It just needs to be rubbed in a bit over the panel before buffing.

The new SFX4 is also very interesting. You need tiny amounts, wipe it over and leave for 15 mins before buffing. I did half a bonnet last week and the next morning the other half was covered in dirt from some light rain and dew, and the sealed half had none of the dirt particles on it... The finish is nice and slick as well.

There are countless offerings out there and most are really damn good, so it comes down to application, brand, price and other personal preferences really IMHO.


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## Neofolis (Jun 10, 2009)

I've been using Poorboy's EX-P sealant, which sounds a lot like the EGP. It wipes on, should be left for 30-60 minutes before buffing, etc. I have also found that it is very easy to use too much and a pain to remove when you do. This is another sealant to only be used before wax. Layering time is less than EGP, but if you use too much, it will probably take you 12-24 hours to remove any excess anyway.


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