# Industry News -DIESEL DESERTION



## WHIZZER

Fundamental post-Dieselgate shift in buying habits predicted with drivers abandoning diesel due to emissions and pollution fears
•Less than a quarter intend to buy a new diesel at changeover time
•More than one sixth set to choose a hybrid or electric vehicle next
•Scandal leads to misconceptions as new Euro 6 compliant models wrongly perceived to be dirtier than petrols
•Autocar publishes guide to help buyers pick their next fuel type

The popularity of diesels, which currently make up around 40% of cars on UK roads, is set to drop sharply as just 23% of motorists plan to buy diesel next time, Autocar research has revealed.

Petrol is set to dominate the market with 60% of buyers predicted to opt for unleaded – while more than a sixth are set to swap from a diesel to a hybrid or electric car at their next purchase.

Those are just some of the statistics uncovered by an Autocar survey, which highlights motorists’ fears over emissions and pollution in the wake of headline-grabbing scandals such as Volkswagen Dieselgate and rising penalties for older diesels entering major cities.

More than 1,000 motorists were polled by leading advisors Simpson Carpenter on behalf of Autocar, and of those surveyed, 38% percent were current diesel owners, with 60% owning a petrol car and 17% owning a hybrid or electric vehicle. Of the current diesel owners, over half plan to defect to a petrol or a hybrid/electric vehicle. That’s in stark contrast to petrol owners, 78% of whom said they would stick with their current fuel choice.

There is now a growing acceptance of alternative-fuelled cars, with 17% of buyers indicating their next car would be hybrid or electric and 22% of diesel owners suggesting they will switch to EV. Buyers also predicted that across the new and used car markets, sales of alternatively fuelled vehicles will come at the expense of diesel, not petrol.

These findings are already being backed up by figures from the Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders (SMMT) which showed that diesel registrations in May this year fell 20% year-on-year. A total of 81,489 diesels were registered in the month, compared with more than 101,000 in May 2016.

The overwhelming reason given for not buying a diesel was fears over pollution and emissions, with 73% saying that would put them off. Uncertainty over what a diesel car might be worth in future was the second biggest headache, with 41% of those surveyed saying they were concerned about residual values.

Perception of diesel as a fuel that’s detrimental to air quality has also made it into public consciousness. Diesel is seen as more harmful to the environment than petrol (65% to 17%), as emitting the most CO2 (by 54% to 28%) – despite diesel having played a huge role in reducing vehicle CO2 since 2000 – and the most NOx and particulates (by 63% to 19%).

Such is the level of damage done to diesel’s reputation by the last few years’ scandals that motorists perceive even brand new Euro 6-compliant diesels as generally more polluting than their petrol-engined equivalents. But when respondents were asked to rank the fuel on its urban pollution impact, the blame was placed squarely on delivery trucks/vans, buses and taxis with diesels in fourth place. Minicabs, petrol cars, trains and trams respectively completed the finishing order.

Despite fears over the fuel, there is still a high level of resistance to introducing measures to penalise diesel owners. When asked about four proposed policies, only one received majority of support: banning older diesels from city centres. That proposal was backed by 56% of motorists, but 68% were opposed to a complete ban on diesels from city centres. A scrappage scheme for owners of older diesels was seen as more popular, with 74% backing a program that would allow owners to trade such a model in for a completely new car that met latest emissions standards.

Autocar editor Mark Tisshaw said: “These findings are a testament to the public battering diesel has taken over the last few years. We’ve already seen figures showing a diesel sales slowdown but what is clear from this survey is that there will be a major shift towards petrol, hybrid and electric cars.

“While some vilification of diesel is justified, there is a major gulf between the perception and the reality. It is concerning that the majority of buyers now believe diesel is a wholly dirty fuel, pumping out the most CO2 and NOx into the atmosphere. The reality of modern Euro 6 diesels is very different.

“Diesels have done a great job in reducing CO2. Figures from the SMMT indicate that CO2 emissions are over 30% lower than in 2000. Particulates and NOx, while justifiably a hot topic, have been dramatically reduced in modern diesels. Sadly, scandals like Volkswagen Dieselgate have eroded public faith and, despite upcoming real world, impartial testing programmes such as the Worldwide harmonised Light Vehicles Test Procedure designed to restore conviction, it is difficult to see the situation changing.

“As this survey has indicated, the beneficiaries – outside of petrol of course – are set to be hybrids and electric cars, which means this could finally be the tipping point for EV take-up. But in the meantime, Autocar certainly doesn’t subscribe to the view that diesel should be dumped. At the heart of this debate is how and where you use your car. And as we’ve outlined below, diesel certainly still has a major role to play.”

Diesel engine DOs:
1.Do think about the kind of driving you do. Diesels, even older models, are fine if you don’t drive in high-pollution areas.
2.Do consider an electric or hybrid if you have a two-car family fleet. Your second car can be a diesel. You may find your EV’s smoothness makes it your first choice.
3.Do spread the word that better times are imminent for diesels, brought by stringent standards and a better testing process.
4.Do study the facts about diesel and air pollution, and pass them on. Disinformation has the potential needlessly to threaten jobs and cripple an important industry.

Diesel engine DON'Ts:
1.Don't get the idea that criticism of diesel cars is all wrong. There are at least seven levels of car diesel ‘cleanliness’. Only recent versions can truthfully be termed clean.
2.Don't abandon making your next car a modern diesel, though. Diesel sales are helping to deliver vital targets for lowering CO2 and reducing global warning.
3.Don't accept assertions that steps already taken to cut toxic emissions and CO2 have not worked. There are figures to show they have. But there’s much more to do.
4.Don't presume that all diesels are bad. The latest types, for reasons listed, can be much cleaner and safer.


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## baxlin

I've bucked the trend, it seems, my last car was a Lexus hybrid, but I returned to the diesel fold for my current car, as there were more factors to consider than engine type, body style being the main one.

I wanted a full four seater folding hardtop convertible, most were really 2+2, but a later model Volvo C70 fit the bill. Options were 5cyl diesel at £185 pa VED, or big petrol engined car at £500 pa VED. Plus better mpg with the diesel.

OK I'm maybe selfish re emissions, but then I follow a bus, and, if I have the top down, I'm nearly choked with the grot that billows out from its exhaust. IMHO that's where most of the emissions pollution comes from.....

Rant over


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## organgrinder

I've no intention of changing. My Euro6 diesel does 4.6s to 60, averages 37mpg with plenty of town/city driving, will do 50mpg on the motorway at 70mph and more on an A road cruise, carries 4 in comfort and has a large boot.

My wife's 2 litre petrol uses over 50% more fuel on average and is nowhere near as fast.


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## Cookies

My dad had a 2.0 petrol ford Cmax auto a few years back. I borrowed it on a few occasions to collect some large items, and on my usual work-home commute, it averaged exactly half the Mpg I was able to get out of our megane 1.5 dci. 

All 3 of our current cars are diesel. My wife's DS3 ehdi manages 60+ mpg on her commute, and nearly 70mpg on a longer run. It's also free to tax. 

My 320d is auto and 4wd, still manages 47mpg. A friend's dad had a 320i xDrive auto, he sold it because it was fiercely hard on petrol for what it was, and wasn't really that quick. My focus tdci does 50mpg and isn't too smokey......

I'm afraid I'm a fan of diesel. I'd be tempted by a lexis hybrid next though. I'd really need an extended test drive to be convinced of its driveability and economy though. Still, I'm open to being persuaded. 

Cooks 

Sent from my D6603 using Tapatalk


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## DIESEL DAVE

Cookies said:


> I'm afraid I'm a fan of diesel.
> 
> Cooks


I`m also a fan of diesels but not afraid :thumb:
I forgot to add getting up to 60+ mpg helps


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## Taxboy

In many ways the industry forced people to go diesel with the real world choice being a diesel. As an example my BMW F10 520d offered the best bang for buck n the model range when I bought it in 2014.

Still we've been here before, those of a certain age may remember when 1.4l was all the rage to avoid taxation

Sent from my SM-T800 using Tapatalk


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## PugIain

I've just moved from diesel after owning 3 in a row. 
My new RCZ is a petrol, it's doing all but 40mpg day to day. Just wish the tank was a tad bigger.


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## Nanoman

I've just taken delivery of a Q30S 2.0T petrol. Even driving like miss daisy I'm not getting above 30mpg. Although, weirdly, driving with the foot to the floor only gets it down to around 25mpg. Shocked at how bad it is but not too bothered as it only does about 5k miles a year. my 2.2 C200 CDI does 500 miles to a tank so I'll be sticking with that.


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## BrummyPete

I've changed to petrol recently and to be honest I'm actually better off, I do well over 40mpg and most of my driving is through centre of Birmingham, in relation my cx5 diesel was struggling to get 30mpg with the same driving 

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk


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## Kerr

The Euro 6 diesels are still failing real world tests.

https://www.theguardian.com/environ...car-models-remain-highly-polluting-tests-show

Confidence is too badly damaged to recover now. Personally I wouldn't want to own an expensive diesel now. They will become increasingly harder to sell and less valuable.


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## MDC250

Still seem to be pretty expensive at the moment Kerr, was hoping to pick up a cheap 335d X Drive Tourer, not cheap enough yet for me to sign up


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## baxlin

Kerr said:


> The Euro 6 diesels are still failing real world tests.
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/environ...car-models-remain-highly-polluting-tests-show


Mmmm, the Guardian. Wonder what the Daily Mail's take on the same report would be...........:devil:


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## DrEskimo

baxlin said:


> Mmmm, the Guardian. Wonder what the Daily Mail's take on the same report would be...........:devil:


Always a fun game that!

Guardian will probably make out that everyone will drop dead tomorrow and the Daily Mail will suggest it is all a conspiracy to kill the monarch....

(Although to be fair, in this case the guardian do an alright job of actually reporting the report well....something I think I can rarely say of the Daily Mail...!)


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## nick_mcuk

I jumped me and the wife back into Petrol cars end of 2015.....we both had dervs and after reading and seeing all the scandals appearing I got us out early. The writing is on the wall and its gonna get expensive to own a derv soon.

And interestingly enough having been running the Mazda 6 2.0L SportNav from Sept 2015 and the 208 GTI from Dec 2015 and logging every tank of fuel along with mileage on the RoadTrip App on my iPhone, the cost per mile vs our old derv cars is about 1p per mile if that dearer per mile.


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## muzzer

If we want to go to our caravan in Cornwall, if we take the french thing then i will use at least 2 tanks of petrol, averaging about 40.7 to the gallon.

If we take the diseasel Qashqai, half a tank at about 54 to the gallon.
For long journeys i can't see why anyone would want to use a petrol engine and by long journeys i mean in excess of 250 miles, it just makes more sense to have a diesel.


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## organgrinder

With Jaguar Land Rover being so heavily dependant on diesels (and probably un saleable as petrols in the UK) I can see some political compromises on the Euro 6 diesels for some time to come.

How many influential people own and run a diesel Range Rover - rather a lot I think.

My wife had a 3.2 litre petrol Touareg which averaged 16mpg but her miles were low. Prior to that she had a 4.4 litre X5 which did marginally better on average at around 17mpg but if you enjoyed it at all, 12mpg was easy to get. After those two she had a 3 litre diesel X5 which averaged 26mpg and would get into mid 30's on the motorway.

For longer journeys and bigger vehicles diesel is still the best fuel - unless of course we want to start to consume a finite resource at twice the speed we currently do. Gas central heating produces far more NOx than diesel cars but I don't see a rush to ban that or make solar compulsory.


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## nick_mcuk

muzzer said:


> If we want to go to our caravan in Cornwall, if we take the french thing then i will use at least 2 tanks of petrol, averaging about 40.7 to the gallon.
> 
> If we take the diseasel Qashqai, half a tank at about 54 to the gallon.
> For long journeys i can't see why anyone would want to use a petrol engine and by long journeys i mean in excess of 250 miles, it just makes more sense to have a diesel.


Well when I am in the office the round trip is a gnats **** under 100 miles doing that say 3 days a week the Mazda or the 208.

I hadn't actually looked at the comparison of late but it turns out out Petrol cars are actually cheaper per mile to run than the old derv cars we owned. Have a look for yourself...

Current fleet:









Previous cars:









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Sam6er

Take into consideration that fuel (Both diesel and petrol) prices have dropped since their peak. Diesel was a lot higher in cost than petrol but are now more equal (Stevenage Sainsbury's is 1.11.7 for both petrol and diesel. I had a diesel for 7 years then when it was time to change I swapped to a petrol due to the ever increasing diesel costs and the scare stories. Fuel prices then dropped and my commuting situation changed (as I no longer had a commuting partner so doing 100 miles per day in my own car) and I bought a diesel again which is working out better in economy and range then the petrol equivalent I had (Considering the diesel I bought is heavier and has a bigger engine then the petrol car I had).

When the prices were at their peak and the differences were about 10p difference on fuel petrol cars (for me anyways) did edge ahead and made sense to switch over, but since the gap has narrowed again diesel is still a clear winner for me. Tax is cheaper than the petrol car I owned, servicing costs for the petrol car and diesel car are the same also.


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## ctownshend

What about people who need diesels?

Farmers 

Haulage companies

Couriers

Anyone who tows anything heavier than the average pot plant or bag of play sand.

What will happen to them?

I must stop myself before I get all polotical and angry :lol::devil:

Diesels have their place, you cannot produce a good level or low down torque with a petrol engine, to tow anything more than the afformentioned with a petrol you need torque which means going big 'there is no replacement for displacement' 

Going big means less efficiency, excuse me while I pluck figures from the sky but I imagine a well engineered 2.0l diesel can produce a darn site more torque than a 3.5l petrol and at a more useable engine speed.

However I would loved to be proved wrong, maybe a supercharged petrol is the way forward?

I will be sticking with diesel, and if Diesel gets overpriced theres always kerosene at 30-something pence per litre  , oops! did I just say that...


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## Kerr

ctownshend said:


> What about people who need diesels?
> 
> Farmers
> 
> Haulage companies
> 
> Couriers
> 
> Anyone who tows anything heavier than the average pot plant or bag of play sand.
> 
> What will happen to them?
> 
> I must stop myself before I get all polotical and angry :lol::devil:
> 
> Diesels have their place, you cannot produce a good level or low down torque with a petrol engine, to tow anything more than the afformentioned with a petrol you need torque which means going big 'there is no replacement for displacement'
> 
> Going big means less efficiency, excuse me while I pluck figures from the sky but I imagine a well engineered 2.0l diesel can produce a darn site more torque than a 3.5l petrol and at a more useable engine speed.
> 
> However I would loved to be proved wrong, maybe a supercharged petrol is the way forward?
> 
> I will be sticking with diesel, and if Diesel gets overpriced theres always kerosene at 30-something pence per litre  , oops! did I just say that...


When was the last time you drove a modern turbocharged petrol engine? Plenty of them make maximum torque from lower revs than many diesel engine even come on boost. My 3.0 makes maximum torque from 1300rpm and pulls well from even lower. Try that with 2.0 diesels and you're stuck in the world of turbo lag with nothing happening.

Diesel does have its place. The biggest issue is too many people own them that don't need them. There's too many of them living in congested areas and busy cities. They could easily switch to petrol or even an electric car in many circumstances.

So far it doesn't look like the pricing of the diesel is going to be the factor pushing people out of diesels. It's all going to be making it too expensive to take them into high pollution areas, before eventually banning them.

More expensive parking permits and charges to enter areas is just the start by the sounds of it.


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## andyfish

I use a diesel fiesta for daily commute to work and back on the motorway of 50 miles. 50-60mpg day in, day out.

For fun/pleasure, Mk3 Focus RS 25mpg on a good day.


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## Caledoniandream

I love my diesels, always have done and will do. 
They are much cleaner than they ever were, and I like the low down torque and the low revs.
My wife's 2.0 ltr diesel never runs faster than 2000-2500 revs, her last onze lasted 250k with never a spanner to the engine.

People who try to say that a petrol can give the same torque as a diesel, can probably also explain why hgv's,trains, ships, cranes etc. never run on petrol? 

A Volvo truck engine give approx 2300 Nm torque at 1000-1400 revs.(13 ltr engine)
A Bugatti Veyton produces just 1600Nm from a W16 with quad turbo's and probably won't last 1.5 million km's.
A diesel is superior in certain jobs, and as soon as they produce a diesel hybrid I will consider to swap.


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## Radish293

I feel that the London mayor is using the lies about diesel as a stealth tax. Euro 5-6 are far cleaner. He needs to target all the old London Taxi and Private hire vehicles running dirty old engines. I used to work in London for an organisation operating a massive diesel fleet. Now that they are being encouraged to go Petrol they are concerned that the fuel bill is going to sky rocket. One option for them is to go hybrid but the test vehicle I drive used up all its electric range in 18 miles. The rest of the day it was running on a 2.0 petrol engine. Think the 3.0 diesel version gave better mpg. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Kerr

Radish293 said:


> I feel that the London mayor is using the lies about diesel as a stealth tax. Euro 5-6 are far cleaner. He needs to target all the old London Taxi and Private hire vehicles running dirty old engines. I used to work in London for an organisation operating a massive diesel fleet. Now that they are being encouraged to go Petrol they are concerned that the fuel bill is going to sky rocket. One option for them is to go hybrid but the test vehicle I drive used up all its electric range in 18 miles. The rest of the day it was running on a 2.0 petrol engine. Think the 3.0 diesel version gave better mpg.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


There's nothing stealth or London-centric about it. Cities across the world are looking to ban diesels due to well documented reasons.

Look how badly diesel cars, including Euro 5 and 6 cars, are miles out when they test emission levels on the road.


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## baxlin

Kerr said:


> More expensive parking permits ....


Surely when parked, a diesel is no more polluting than a petrol, or even electric vehicle?


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## DrEskimo

Caledoniandream said:


> I love my diesels, always have done and will do.
> 
> They are much cleaner than they ever were, and I like the low down torque and the low revs.
> 
> My wife's 2.0 ltr diesel never runs faster than 2000-2500 revs, her last onze lasted 250k with never a spanner to the engine.
> 
> People who try to say that a petrol can give the same torque as a diesel, can probably also explain why hgv's,trains, ships, cranes etc. never run on petrol?
> 
> A Volvo truck engine give approx 2300 Nm torque at 1000-1400 revs.(13 ltr engine)
> 
> A Bugatti Veyton produces just 1600Nm from a W16 with quad turbo's and probably won't last 1.5 million km's.
> 
> A diesel is superior in certain jobs, and as soon as they produce a diesel hybrid I will consider to swap.


If it's the torque you're a fan of, maybe it's time to look at electric...?








Radish293 said:


> I feel that the London mayor is using the lies about diesel as a stealth tax. Euro 5-6 are far cleaner. He needs to target all the old London Taxi and Private hire vehicles running dirty old engines. I used to work in London for an organisation operating a massive diesel fleet. Now that they are being encouraged to go Petrol they are concerned that the fuel bill is going to sky rocket. One option for them is to go hybrid but the test vehicle I drive used up all its electric range in 18 miles. The rest of the day it was running on a 2.0 petrol engine. Think the 3.0 diesel version gave better mpg.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


What lies???! The only lies are from the car manufacturers. Obviously famously from VAG who lied at the testing stage, but also nearly all manufacturers for having low emissions during testing conditions, but ridiculously high emissions in real world driving, where it actually matters...

http://www.theicct.org/news/press-r...aust-emissions-modern-diesel-cars-seven-times

As soon as real world testing comes into force, diesels will be finished. Why continue investment into downstream emissions controls for diesel technology, which provides more reliability issues and failure points for customers (I'm not sure anyone likes having an EGR and DPF....!) when newer EV technologies are progressing at such a pace...?

Literally makes zero sense...

Oh and who says the government aren't targeting taxis...?

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp....bs-transport-for-london-tfl-charging-stations


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## Caledoniandream

The problem with electric ( don't get me wrong I am a big electric car fan) is that the batteries voor HGV ato to heavy, big and cumbersome.
We tried electrical trucks, but they are no good to anything than very short distance distribution. 
Our trucks can be weeks on the road, and some of them run 24hours non stop ( double manned) 
I can fill up the 1200 ltr fuel tank in under 9 minutes, or 16 minutes on a non commercial pump, I cannot charge a battery in the same time. 

Regarding lies, the next thing will be that petrol cars are not that clean ( still blow a lot more CO out than any diesel) 
Or that electrical car batteries are a big strain on our environment. 
Hydrogen or nuclear are probably the only solutions 

A lot of the rumours are there to raise taxes and or sales.


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## Kerr

Caledoniandream said:


> A lot of the rumours are there to raise taxes and or sales.


It's going to kill sales and the finance sector. I think that's part of the reason they have been soft over it.

UK car sales fell by 8.5% in May with a 20% drop in diesel sales compared the same month last year. The VW scenario had already hit sales by that time last year.

It's going to cost the government money when they introduce scappage payments for diesels.

86% of new cars are sold on PCP deals. In recent years it wasn't far short of a 50% split between petrol and diesel. The finance companies are going to get landed with millions of cars that won't be worth their GFMV. I think it's going to get very messy.



baxlin said:


> Surely when parked, a diesel is no more polluting than a petrol, or even electric vehicle?


If you've got a parking permit you live and drive in the area. The more expensive permits is to deter people from buying a diesel.


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## ctownshend

Kerr said:


> When was the last time you drove a modern turbocharged petrol engine? Plenty of them make maximum torque from lower revs than many diesel engine even come on boost. My 3.0 makes maximum torque from 1300rpm and pulls well from even lower. Try that with 2.0 diesels and you're stuck in the world of turbo lag with nothing happening.


Well thats very impressive, I guess it helps being a 3.0L  I wouldn't fancy fuelling the beast, I wouldnt say my diesel is laggy though but it does make max torque from 1500 RPM



Kerr said:


> Diesel does have its place. The biggest issue is too many people own them that don't need them. There's too many of them living in congested areas and busy cities. They could easily switch to petrol or even an electric car in many circumstances.


Couldn't agree more on this.



Kerr said:


> So far it doesn't look like the pricing of the diesel is going to be the factor pushing people out of diesels. It's all going to be making it too expensive to take them into high pollution areas, before eventually banning them.


Luckily I live in the @rse end of nowhere in Cornwall so shouldn't affect me too much... i'm alright Jack!


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## Kerr

ctownshend said:


> Well thats very impressive, I guess it helps being a 3.0L  I wouldn't fancy fuelling the beast, I wouldnt say my diesel is laggy though but it does make max torque from 1500 RPM
> 
> Couldn't agree more on this.
> 
> Luckily I live in the @rse end of nowhere in Cornwall so shouldn't affect me too much... i'm alright Jack!


The 2.0l engine in the 328i makes maximum torque from 1250rpm. To keep emissions down they have to move away high revving engines. Low down torque is common.


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## Cookies

My 320d produces 20% more torque than the 328i. The official mpg figures are 56.5 vs 34.4. The 328i is 1 second quicker to 60, but the in-gear acceleration times are very similar, although acceleration through the gears would suggest that the petrol engine still needs to be revved as it's a fair bit quicker. The tax is £30 vs £150 too. 

Now a 330d would be a whole different ball game!! 

I'll probably stick with the diesel for another while, although the turbo petrol engines are definitely getting there!! 

Cooks 

Sent from my D6603 using Tapatalk


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## Kerr

Cookies said:


> My 320d produces 20% more torque than the 328i. The official mpg figures are 56.5 vs 34.4. The 328i is 1 second quicker to 60, but the in-gear acceleration times are very similar, although acceleration through the gears would suggest that the petrol engine still needs to be revved as it's a fair bit quicker. The tax is £30 vs £150 too.
> 
> Now a 330d would be a whole different ball game!!
> 
> I'll probably stick with the diesel for another while, although the turbo petrol engines are definitely getting there!!
> 
> Cooks
> 
> Sent from my D6603 using Tapatalk


The 328i is 44mpg. The 340i is 37mpg. The 328i is an older engine it was just the one in my head at the time.

People often compare normally aspirated petrol engines when comparing to diesel. Petrol cars with turbos have been producing good torque and plenty of power for a while now.


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## bigalc

The main reason i have recently gone to petrol from diesel is i just can't justify having a 2.0ltr HDI when i am only doing 6000mls per yr commuting to work and town driving.
I now have a 3 cylinder 1.2 puretec 110 and it is superb to drive and great fun.

My son now has the Diesel as he will be commuting regularly from Scotland to Portsmouth.
Diesels do have their place but i don't think people should be penalised for having one.


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## Guest

Personally i can't wait till all these big petrol engined owners get a slap in the face also, why should they be let off, schools are calling for emissions FREE zones not DIESEL FREE zones, heard other day a car sat on tick over puts out enough harmful emissions to fill 150 balloons, never mentioned Diesel engines btw, you can't tell me everyone picking kids up drives diesel engines, a lot of kids walk home so what happens when all the coaches & mini buses drive down the same street are they told to wait until it's a KIDS FREE zone, hauliers are gonna get kicked in the gentlemens area yet again, all the schools I've worked on in the past get meals & food delivered in large vans or HGV's so price of school meals are likely to go up to cover hauliers new running costs what ever they may be, the same applies to stocking up supermarket shelves, are Tesco and the likes to have army style air drops parachuted in to stock up up, just typical government games, give something with one hand take it away with another, for now people with petrol cars are happy but your day will come also, plus i don't think it will keep a lot of people out of diesels with the devaluation thing, it's more likely to create a market for people who couldn't afford a large Diesel engine before


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## ollienoclue

Petrols pollute just as much and do produce particulates, only they are so small it is hard to measure them. Both diesel and petrol engines utilise fuels containing known carcinogens and we need to get away from using them full stop.

If you want to tackle pollution in cities, then ban traffic from entering them or make vehicles either run on methane OR make them use battery power.

Don't try and kid ourselves one fuel is superior to another, it doesn't work that way.

And as a side point, anyone trying to drive in London is officially nuts in my book. The people commuting to the place would be well advised to run a proper hybrid and get 30 miles of range on battery power.

Hauliers won't get kicked at all, they merely pass it on to customers. When was the last time they had a fuel protest?


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## Kerr

combat wombat said:


> Personally i can't wait till all these big petrol engined owners get a slap in the face also, why should they be let off, schools are calling for emissions FREE zones not DIESEL FREE zones, heard other day a car sat on tick over puts out enough harmful emissions to fill 150 balloons, never mentioned Diesel engines btw, you can't tell me everyone picking kids up drives diesel engines, a lot of kids walk home so what happens when all the coaches & mini buses drive down the same street are they told to wait until it's a KIDS FREE zone, hauliers are gonna get kicked in the gentlemens area yet again, all the schools I've worked on in the past get meals & food delivered in large vans or HGV's so price of school meals are likely to go up to cover hauliers new running costs what ever they may be, the same applies to stocking up supermarket shelves, are Tesco and the likes to have army style air drops parachuted in to stock up up, just typical government games, give something with one hand take it away with another, for now people with petrol cars are happy but your day will come also, plus i don't think it will keep a lot of people out of diesels with the devaluation thing, it's more likely to create a market for people who couldn't afford a large Diesel engine before


Dirtier petrol cars are already subject to higher VED. Their slap in the face came about in 2006. That's when they penalised petrol and wrongly made diesel more attractive by looking at C02 only. They changed the VED rates again this year.

The prices of diesel cars and volume of sales are on the slide. New diesel car sales were down 20% over the same month last year. Most car drivers really don't care much about cars. Lots of people buy diesels solely on the idea that it will be cheaper due to better fuel economy. They don't realise they save very little if anything at all.

There will be little point of buying a diesel if you want to visit a major city. You'll be increasingly priced out before being banned.

Why do so many people have this thought that our government is "playing games?"We've already had loads of diesel threads on here and it's very clear that even car enthusiasts aren't paying any attention to what is happening at all.


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## Guest

I take it you don't work in a diesel industry and probably just play with a biro & keyboard all day, I'll tell you why it's a stupid game/farce, over the last 12 years I've lost count of the amount of schools I've worked on where a new build school is being built on the same existing plot as the old one that will be demolished, normally over the full course from build to demolition to reinstating is 18-24 months, the amount of plant, generator engines, deliveries, work staff is mind boggling, if an old school gets the go ahead to replaced by a new build they'll laughing tin hats, they won't put any restrictions on operating times or nothing will get done, so I'd suggest stop just quoting figures and that are there to scare monger and listen to people who work in the real world


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## Kerr

combat wombat said:


> I take it you don't work in a diesel industry and probably just play with a biro & keyboard all day, I'll tell you why it's a stupid game/farce, over the last 12 years I've lost count of the amount of schools I've worked on where a new build school is being built on the same existing plot as the old one that will be demolished, normally over the full course from build to demolition to reinstating is 18-24 months, the amount of plant, generator engines, deliveries, work staff is mind boggling, if an old school gets the go ahead to replaced by a new build they'll laughing tin hats, they won't put any restrictions on operating times or nothing will get done, so I'd suggest stop just quoting figures and that are there to scare monger and listen to people who work in the real world


I work in the oil industry and get my hands dirty sometimes too. Nice patronising comments all the same.

There really is no game. The air quality is dangerous in congested areas and something needs to be done to tackle that. Getting as many diesel cars out of these areas is a very justified reason.

We know we still need diesel in many applications. They'll be looked after.


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## ctownshend

Kerr said:


> I work in the oil industry and get my hands dirty sometimes too. Nice patronising comments all the same.
> 
> There really is no game. The air quality is dangerous in congested areas and something needs to be done to tackle that. Getting as many diesel cars out of these areas is a very justified reason.
> 
> We know we still need diesel in many applications. They'll be looked after.


I agree with this, The way I look at it is diesels are better for the environment but worse for humans, petrols are worse for the environment but better for humans.

I work for a utilities company and a well tuned oil (kerosene/diesel) fired boiler can produce ZERO NOX I kid you not. I do not believe this is possible with natural gas.

Imagine if zero nox was a possibility in an internal combustion engine...


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## Caledoniandream

It's a game governments play for several reasons:
UK Government vehicle (or their leased ones) are mainly diesels, and the latest tender asks again for diesel (Cars and light vans) 
European governments who are much more advanced in environmental science and have years more experience, like Germany, Austria, Swiss, Luxembourg and the Netherlands, have not discarded the diesel, in many of these countries is Diesel fuel still substantial cheaper as petrol. 
if the Diesel engine was the problem, why are they not leading.
On a similar not, they didn’t promote the diesel engine against the petrol one either.

Anyone hoping on a "scrappage scheme" will be disappointed, environmental issues in Britain should not cost the Government money, it should bring money.


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## Kerr

Caledoniandream said:


> It's a game governments play for several reasons:
> UK Government vehicle (or their leased ones) are mainly diesels, and the latest tender asks again for diesel (Cars and light vans)
> European governments who are much more advanced in environmental science and have years more experience, like Germany, Austria, Swiss, Luxembourg and the Netherlands, have not discarded the diesel, in many of these countries is Diesel fuel still substantial cheaper as petrol.
> if the Diesel engine was the problem, why are they not leading.
> On a similar not, they didn't promote the diesel engine against the petrol one either.
> 
> Anyone hoping on a "scrappage scheme" will be disappointed, environmental issues in Britain should not cost the Government money, it should bring money.


They did promote the diesel engine in 2001. This quote has been churned out by all the people who feel mislead and bought their diesel recently.

Cities in Germany are looking to ban diesels too. Switzerland went as far as stopping sales of VW after their scandal. They also are looking to force petrol and diesel cars off the road.

Visit places like Oslo and see their attitude towards diesels. They are way ahead of the game over the rest of Europe. They are pricing people out of diesels and into electric cars. Petrol too, but diesels are frowned upon. Or go the opposite way and go to Budapest. Lovely place, but the air quality is shocking and you'll soon realise that the diesel cars are the issue.

Technically speaking diesel should be much cheaper than petrol. You get far more of it from the refining process and doesn't take as much effort either.

Here was my trip tonight. Door to door from Livingston to Aberdeen. I went passed Glenrothes and through Fife rather than straight up the A90. Lots of roundabouts and junctions, through Dundee and then right up Anderson Drive as I live on the other side of Aberdeen. Plenty of road works on the A90 from Dundee to Aberdeen. My cruise is set to 78mph all the way from Dundee to Aberdeen when not slowed by traffic.



I've done the same trip hundreds of times over in various cars. Driving my Citroen C5 2.0hdi 140bhp would only manage 46-47mpg on the same trip going at the same pace.


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## ollienoclue

ctownshend said:


> I agree with this, The way I look at it is diesels are better for the environment but worse for humans, petrols are worse for the environment but better for humans.
> 
> I work for a utilities company and a well tuned oil (kerosene/diesel) fired boiler can produce ZERO NOX I kid you not. I do not believe this is possible with natural gas.
> 
> Imagine if zero nox was a possibility in an internal combustion engine...


That's a boiler. Different ball game.

It isn't the NOx that is the issue, NOx can be dealt with using ad-blue. It is the particulates they are complaining about, which is basically soot. Ok they are not great for health but then you get lower emissions from diesel engines because they are more fuel efficient than petrol engines- swings and roundabouts.

I don't know what the end game is with emissions laws or how far you want to kick the can of engine tech down the road but we do need to remember that not that many years ago we had sulphur and lead in road fuels and many urban areas were blanketed in coal smoke.

It is clear that for the foreseeable future diesel and kerosene will be here to stay to power heavy vehicles and aircraft. It is possible to produce wholly synthetic or biologically derived substitutes that closely mimic these enough but the cost will increase fairly dramatically.

Passenger cars will all be electric. Formula 1 should chuck in petrol engine technology and help provide the stimulus for battery technology and stop dragging their heels.
The internal combustion engine, like fossil fuels, has had decades and billions of R & D thrown at it. Electric vehicles, by contrast have had zip by comparison. I am a user on other forums where some Tesla owners reside. The performance and range of these cars is more than ample, and the saving on fuel is mental.

Of course congestion in urban areas will continue to be a problem regardless of how vehicles are propelled but that is a different matter.

Personally I would heavily invest in the railways on a national level and make them all electric. It would provide a horde of employment for decades.


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## m500dpp

For me there are several issues here:

- No car is environmentally friendly, even electrics produce pollution when manufactured, and the batteries dont last forever and require "recycling"
- Modern cars petrol and diesel produce far lower emissions. Followed a classic MGB or minor traveller etc recently? staggering how much pollution you can actually smell.
- Diesels have problems with particulates although DPF's help here, petrol with CO2, neither are completely clean.
- Despite Govt subsidy electric cars are far too expensive due to the comparatively low volume production, and electric motor is far simpler than than a petrol or diesel engine, electric cars must become much cheaper to make them viable. 

I remain a diesel fan which is very naughty of me as I only do a relatively low mileage, we also have 3 petrol cars, the Audi TT is turbocharged and does have good mid range torque. I have a BMW 325i with 218 bhp, but due to the need to rev it my C220 Merc is actually quicker due to mid range torque, and does 60 mpg vs the 325i at 29!

I enjoy driving our cars and will continue to use petrol and diesel, I'm not disinterested in electric I just can't afford a Tesla! At the current rate of change I wont rule out electric as one of our next cars.

OK just done a quick calculation, assuming 9000 pa our 1.5 dci Qashqai will cost £71 a month in diesel. A Renault Zoe will cost virtually nothing in charging BUT battery hire is £89 a month!!!!! The sums for electric really dont add up, and the reason the battery hire is so high is that it will need to be replaced at significant cost and consequent environmental impact. I was almost getting interested in buying an electric car!!!!


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## organgrinder

A girl at work has the Mitsubishi PHEV and they reckon their electric bills have increased about £15/mth when the car is getting charged daily, so that's nearly 3 gallons worth.


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## steelghost

One of the less talked-about reasons that folks are getting out of diesels is the cost of maintaining all the emissions equipment ie DPF, AdBlue if applicable - especially if people have bought a diesel engine for economy but are only doing short trips from cold. And in those circumstances the thermal efficiency is reduced so they're not much better than a petrol engine, in some cases worse!

The newer manifold-in-head designs are improving matters, but it doesn't take too many garage bills to wipe out the economy advantage, unless you do really big mileages.


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## PugIain

steelghost said:


> the thermal efficiency is reduced so they're not much better than a petrol engine, in some cases worse!


I can vouch for short trips doing diesels no good.
Last Xmas my 508 GT was used for a lot of short, local trips. Not really warming up properly.

Usual mpg around 40/42 over a tank.

Mpg over the Xmas period over 200 miles?
24mpg.

24mpg.

Sent from my Vodafone Smart ultra 6 using Tapatalk


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## ollienoclue

Manifold in head.. I'm not sure I like the sound of that.

Battery technology will improve over time, lets not forget fossil fuels and IC engines have had decades and billions of R and D thrown at them, fossil fuel production and refining is one of the biggest human activities on Earth, over time battery tech will improve as volume production expands. Various organisations are conducting research frantically into the field because it will be a virtual gold mine.


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## steelghost

ollienoclue said:


> Manifold in head.. I'm not sure I like the sound of that.







It's a petrol engine he's discussing but the "up to temperature" benefits apply just as much to diesel engines. Also, you can bring the DPF that much closer to the engine and so the length of journey needed to get it up to passive regeneration temperature is reduced.


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## JasJab

Well I switched from a Golf MK7 GTD estate to a Passat GTE estate and I love it averaging about 120mpg obviously with some charging I was spending about £80 a week on fuel now it's £70 a month plus about £30 of electric it suits my daily routine









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## Cookies

JasJab said:


> Well I switched from a Golf MK7 GTD estate to a Passat GTE estate and I love it averaging about 120mpg obviously with some charging I was spending about £80 a week on fuel now it's £70 a month plus about £30 of electric it suits my daily routine
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


That sounds incredible @JasJab - what kind of drivng is it; motorway, town etc? Very interested to learn more as a Golf GTE would be a great car too!

Cheers

Cooks

Sent from my D6603 using Tapatalk


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## JasJab

Cookies said:


> That sounds incredible @JasJab - what kind of drivng is it; motorway, town etc? Very interested to learn more as a Golf GTE would be a great car too!
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Cooks
> 
> Sent from my D6603 using Tapatalk


To be fair my average day to day is about 160mpg I have had a few long trips recently that has brought the average down to 120 I do a long school run 5 to times a week a 32 mile round trip, what I do love at the moment is if I drive to Newcastle, Sunderland etc which I can do all electric from home about 25 miles away then I can park and charge for free and get a full charge in a couple of hours to get me back home also all electric.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## TonyHill

I've actually had a few customers that have reverted BACK to either diesel or petrol cars purely because of the 'range anxiety' associated with the electric models. 
One lady only had her Nissan Leaf for 6 months!!:speechles


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## tosh

Thinking about the move to plug in hybrids; I can't see this happening in London (or any built up area) where there is only on street parking. 

Basically if you don't have a drive, I can't see how plug in hybrids are going to work at all. Even if councils wire up the streets (like Norway) kids will just come along every evening and steal your charging cables. 

Only going to suit the percentage of car owners that can always park at a charger (at work or home)


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## DrEskimo

tosh said:


> Thinking about the move to plug in hybrids; I can't see this happening in London (or any built up area) where there is only on street parking.
> 
> Basically if you don't have a drive, I can't see how plug in hybrids are going to work at all. Even if councils wire up the streets (like Norway) kids will just come along every evening and steal your charging cables.
> 
> Only going to suit the percentage of car owners that can always park at a charger (at work or home)
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


This is exactly why I cant own one, despite wanting to.

There has been innovations into making charging ports from lampposts though, so would be interesting if that takes off.

Worth noting that I'm pretty sure you can lock the cable in place while charging, so don't think theft is much of an issue :thumb:


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## tosh

Ok, so just vandalism then!
You see my point though; there has to be a fundamental change allowing people to either charge at either end of their destination and overnight at home; for everyone. 

If every Volvo is going to be at least plug in hybrid in the future, doesn't that mean they have immediately shrunk their target market by 90%?

Right now in a car park of 100 spaces there are 4 or 8 with charging points; I suppose Volvo are assuming that in the future, that figure will be more like 40-50%


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## Cookies

A week colleague has a Renault Zoe, and when it's plugged into a charging point, both ends are locked into their respective sockets. When ylthe owner returns to the car, they unlock the sockets by switching their card on the charging point. 

You can't stop vandalism though sadly!

Cooks 

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## Caledoniandream

You will never stop vandalism regardless how your car is fuelled.
Modern technology will eventually allow "contactless" charging.
A bit like how your toothbrush charges, and this is possible to put in the ground under the parking spot.
We are only on the beginning of a whole new technology revolution, as Bachman Turner Overdrive use to say "you ain't seen nothing yet "!


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## DrEskimo

tosh said:


> Ok, so just vandalism then!
> You see my point though; there has to be a fundamental change allowing people to either charge at either end of their destination and overnight at home; for everyone.
> 
> If every Volvo is going to be at least plug in hybrid in the future, doesn't that mean they have immediately shrunk their target market by 90%?
> 
> Right now in a car park of 100 spaces there are 4 or 8 with charging points; I suppose Volvo are assuming that in the future, that figure will be more like 40-50%
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Yea not sure how vandalism is specific to EVs...?

I get your point, and do agree, but your numbers strike me as a bit odd...! I'm not sure 90% of homeowners in the U.K. Don't have a drive way or garage.

Yes as the infrastructure grows, there will be more ways to charge. Of course the national grid will need to grow to meet this demand too. I imagine there is only so far that off peak charging can take you before you need to make large changes to the power infrastructure.

Here's hoping for nuclear fusion....!


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## MDC250

Didn't quite see this coming but at least it's some way off...

Britain 'to ban all petrol and diesel vehicle sales by 2040' - The Independent
https://apple.news/AqLp3Fy6dSA-wzUW5u8ZRqw


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## tosh

Imagine how quiet all town centres and residential areas will be; complete bliss. 

Shame I'll be too deaf by then to appreciate it. 


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## Darlofan

Fine for now but as soon as the tipping point is reached then electricity will be taxed higher and we'll all be moaning about the cost to run. Free charging points installed at homes, free charging sites etc will soon be scrapped as more move to electric.


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## ollienoclue

It will be the biggest thing to happen to the country and motoring ever.

We will look at petrol and diesel vehicles as we look at hunking V8 petrols and superchargers etc today. They will be considered extremely thirsty and costly, and will be subject to extreme depreciation, and will probably be taxed like no tomorrow.

There will be no nuclear fusion, not needed anyway.

Quite how the exchequer is going to cope with the loss of 25 billion quid a year in fuel taxation I am not sure. It is OK saying you will tax electricity heavily but then how will you know the difference between household use and car charging?

People's fuel bills will still be barely 10% of what they are today anyhow.

The charging points are not huge money either, there is nothing complex about them whatsoever.

I do hope the UK government insist on a standardised charging socket mind!


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