# Looking for a waterless wash spray



## willskoda

I live in a city centre and the car is parked in an old railway arch under the station. It's warm and dry but has no access to water or electric. During the week, whilst it just sits there without being driven, it collects a fine layer of dust. Sometimes the car doesn't move for a up to two weeks. In order to keep it looking bright and shiney I visit it and give it a "wash" with Demon Shine in a spray and wipe down with a MF and buff up to a shine. The car is well protected anyway with numerous layers of polishes and waxes (lifeshine, EGP, SRP, Megs 7, HD, CG WWWW etc etc) and the car is taken back to the old folks, where I have my array of detailing gear and water, every so often (as often as SWMBO can put up with :lol: ) for a proper going over. What I want is something that will give the car a quick clean without marring (as best is possible) I was thinking about Greased Lightening Showroom Shine but can anyone recommend anything else? Oh - the cheaper the better! :thumb:


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## Shug

Can you get a bucket o water to it easily cos onr would do a job. Chemical guys one is good stuff. Smells pretty!


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## Lowiepete

willskoda said:


> I was thinking about Greased Lightning Showroom Shine but can anyone recommend anything else?


GLSS may be a bit of overkill - perhaps ONR with this technique...

Regards,
Steve


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## willskoda

You look like a fan of both there Steve. Some useful info. Thanks :thumb:


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## willskoda

Shug said:


> Can you get a bucket o water to it easily cos onr would do a job. Chemical guys one is good stuff. Smells pretty!


In a word - no. A spray bottle yes but a bucket no chance.


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## pete5570

Proshine is good, but ONR is more economical.


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## Ross

DP waterless wash is quite good http://www.motorgeek.co.uk/waterless-wash-p-158.html


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## pete5570

If you need a spray, i would recommend pro shine. Easily the best totally waterless product i've used, spray on wipe off and leaves a great shine.


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## Lowiepete

willskoda said:


> You look like a fan of both there Steve. Some useful info.


Each has its place in the scheme of things. ONR is superb for the dusty car,
and GLSS is perhaps a bit safer when things are a tad muckier. The main difference
is that the GLSS adds a wax coating, but is still a 2x wipe process, whereas ONR
can be a single-wipe job. Overspray of the GLSS into inaccessible places can 
also be a pain. Presently, I'm using ONR on bodywork, with CG Hose-Free Eco
Wash on the wheels (half-bucket per 2 wheels, with noodle mitt) and FK425 
every 3rd wash. Latter keeps the paint very slick indeed.

The GLSS is very useful for removing bird-bombs and tree sap... If you don't
use anything else, it will build up quite a protective and shiny surface. However,
I've taken to paint-cleaning twice a year, so I tend to use GLSS less often.

Regards,
Steve


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## pete5570

As far as i know GLSS and Proshine are the same product.


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## RCZ

I've used this stuff and it's very good 
http://www.permaclear-carcare.co.uk/pro-dry-clean.html

I'm sure I read in a forum somewhere that they were looking for volunteer testers. It can't hurt to drop them a line and try and blag some 

I've got a loan car at the moment which is brand new. I tried it yesterday on totally unmarked paint (ie no swirls etc) and although the paint was dirty, there was definitely no scratching.

I've not tried detailing sprays or ONR, so would be interested to know the difference in them all, being a newbie. Have any trials/comparisons been done?


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## carwarpz

Ive used this Permaclear before! Great stuff!

Seen it promoted at some car shows in Scotland recently! Some beautiful cars on display!
I seen a matt white car being cleaned with it aswell and it preformed well!


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## RCZ

Are waterless washes compatible with sealants? I've got some Werkstat jett on its way to me and I want to check that I can still use my waterless wash.


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## pete5570

RCZ said:


> Are waterless washes compatible with sealants? I've got some Werkstat jett on its way to me and I want to check that I can still use my waterless wash.


You won't have any problems using waterless over sealants. Optimum do a product called Opti clean, if you buy the concentrated one, it can be diluted and works out very reasonable. It's been reviewed on here and looks like good stuff.


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## MilesBetter

+1 for ONR

I have been using ONR in a stronger ratio as a waterless wash in the sumer when was a bit too dirty for a QD mix; I added a bit of OID for added gloss and protection. Great for shows/meets when driven some distance etc.


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## james_death

RCZ said:


> Are waterless washes compatible with sealants? I've got some Werkstat jett on its way to me and I want to check that I can still use my waterless wash.


No problem with waterless over sealants, but a lot of the waterless will leave there own deposits behind often a wax.
This may not bead as well as your sealant but your original sealant will still be underneath this top coating and after a proper wash the coating left by the wateerless will be removed to leave your original sealant.


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## corbettjarvis

Hey guys - I'm about to start stocking Natures Magic detailing spray and waterless wash - made here in the tropics (north QLD). It's 100% eco friendly, no petrolchemicals or hydrocarbons even - natural botanical ingredients. It's awesome stuff - the best waterless wash I've used if you have to use waterless ! Puts a great just waxed look on too


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## J90CVC

ONR is highly recommended from what I've seen.


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## RCZ

Am I missing something? When people ask about waterless wash, there's always people recommending ONR. From what I've seen, it isn't a waterless system. 

With so many 'systems' for cleaning your car, it seems to be that a lot of it boils down to time.

Surely the best/safest system is a snow foam, 2BM, dry, wax/sealant etc. But that takes time and access to plenty of water!!!

For those that don't have the time/need or access to water, there are quick fixes like 'Quick Detailer' but only advisable for dusty cars. Then there's waterless products for cars that are dirty. I would put ONR in-between a waterless product and a full on wash/dry/protect routine.


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## james_death

RCZ said:


> Am I missing something? When people ask about waterless wash, there's always people recommending ONR. From what I've seen, it isn't a waterless system.
> 
> With so many 'systems' for cleaning your car, it seems to be that a lot of it boils down to time.
> 
> Surely the best/safest system is a snow foam, 2BM, dry, wax/sealant etc. But that takes time and access to plenty of water!!!
> 
> For those that don't have the time/need or access to water, there are quick fixes like 'Quick Detailer' but only advisable for dusty cars. Then there's waterless products for cars that are dirty. I would put ONR in-between a waterless product and a full on wash/dry/protect routine.


Yep ONR often comes up in waterless threads though not totally waterless it does a far superior job and gives a proper clean on stuff i would not dare touch with totally waterless.
Mirror Finish (Steve) did a 2 year test only using ONR.


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## MilesBetter

Its not waterless, its Rinseless 

IMO....best/safest system is one where we Eschew (abstain or keep away from) any technique that will inflict swirling.... I am all for using whatever that product or technique may be that facilitates swirl minimization or elimination.


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## RCZ

Hi Steve

Thanks for the link; think I'd have to see it in action to be convinced. You're using ONR then more to remove a 'touch' stage than for speed?

My preferred routine now is:


snowfoam on dry (think it lingers better than if I rinse first)
PW rinse
2 BM 
PW rinse
Dry with MF cloth

As I'm about to switch from wax to jett sealant, that will probably be added as a final stage once every 3 or 4 washes. Doing the mucky sides/rear inbetween washes though is literally minutes of a job with permaclear waterless.


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## MilesBetter

Yes, you are correct, I am not using it through need for speed or convinience.


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## Chris CPT

Some reviews on my review site:
http://carproductstested.com/category/exterior-product-reviews/waterless/


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## RCZ

Thanks Chris. Have you tried the permaclear one? If so, what did you think to it? How does it compare to the others? Is it ok to use a sealant...and then use one of these every now and again? 

Sorry for all the questions :thumb:


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## Johnboy82

Hi, I use this stuff for when the car just needs a tidy up. http://www.carchem.co.uk/citrus-wat...e-p-158.html?zenid=ouhj0tugp1jhup8fdko6lkqc83

sorry if its not allowed then i can remove the link.


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## MilesBetter

This maybe of Interest...

AutoGeek:When you need to wash your car during the winter or in an area with water restrictions, you'll find that a... 
http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=496264870896


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## Chris CPT

RCZ said:


> Thanks Chris. Have you tried the permaclear one? If so, what did you think to it? How does it compare to the others? Is it ok to use a sealant...and then use one of these every now and again?
> 
> Sorry for all the questions :thumb:


Hi. No worries on the questions front. 
I've not tried the Permaclear product yet, no. 
If I were to go for any of the ones that I tested, I'd go for the ProShine as it has Carnauba in which makes the water bead well, and actually the ProShine does a decent job in most circumstances. 
It's a good product, and as long as your car isn't ultra-dirty (no waterless wash is designed for thick dirt) and you use plenty of good M/F cloths and keep turning them to a clean side regularly, you'll minimise swirls etc. Remember also to not take off waterless washes in a 'round' motion, but rather just go straight up or down once. I tend to go up or down in one motion once, and then for the next part I turn to a clean section of cloth and do the same again.

Over winter, I'd just clean your car as well as possible with what you have available (waterless wash etc), and then when winter is over, get a D.A or Rotary machine polisher and use something like Prima Amigo or Cherry Glaze or whatever you choose, to bring the life back into your paintwork.
You are right though - get a decent paint sealant down on the paintwork to help minimise damage.
PM me if you want a bit of advice on what products to buy - I don't think I can do that on this section. 
Cheers,
Chris. :thumb:


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## MilesBetter

Hi Chris,

I have been looking at Valet Pro Citrus Bling, how does that fit in with the scheme of things please, is this a good product, where could this be placed in a routine, what would be its USPs.

Much appreciated.


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## chillly

Ive had a go at Greased Lightening and its a very good all rounder imo. Give lowipete a shout hes the chap you need to speak to:thumb:


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## Dubbin1

Ultima Waterless Wash Plus Concentrate can not be beat. One bottle will make 5.5 gallons of waterless wash, QD or clay lube.


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## DIESEL DAVE

Not seen it for sale in the UK yet


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## Chris CPT

steve_70 said:


> Hi Chris,
> 
> I have been looking at Valet Pro Citrus Bling, how does that fit in with the scheme of things please, is this a good product, where could this be placed in a routine, what would be its USPs.
> 
> Much appreciated.


I'd use Citrus Bling as a quick detailer (only for _really_ light dust on car), after you've finished washing your car you can use it as a drying aid and then once it's dry, use it as a fast wax.
Citrus Bling is a hugely versatile product though and there's stacks of uses for it. 
Have a look on VP's site at what you can use it for and for dilution rates:
http://valetpro.co.uk/Products/Wax-and-Polish/1142-/Citrus-Bling-5L

HTH. :thumb:
Cheers,
Chris.


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## EVL

I've only recently started using it, but I'm turning into a fan of Autoglym waterless detailer. :thumb:


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## Lowiepete

Hello Folks,


chillly said:


> Ive had a go at Greased Lightening and its a very good all rounder imo. Give lowipete a shout hes the chap you need to speak to:thumb:


Oh dear, I had hoped to keep a low profile in this discussion, simply because
my writings on this subject are fairly prominent already :buffer:

However, in a forum where people can get very sniffy over MF cloths, aka 
dusters, I am very surprised that this has gone unchallenged...



RCZ said:


> My preferred routine now is:
> 
> 
> snowfoam on dry (think it lingers better than if I rinse first)
> PW rinse
> 2 BM
> PW rinse
> Dry with MF cloth


...especially in the Eco Friendly section!​
Oh crumbs, now what follows is going to sound like a rant. That's not what is
meant - honest!

*Snowfoam*
Other than being a bit of a "big boy's toy", can someone please explain to me
both the need and the relevance of this to washing _cars_, not high-sided
vehicles or tall vans.

*Power-Washing*
Now this completely baffles me. Why would a tool that removes moss and
algae very efficiently from a surface where otherwise you'd need to scrub
very hard indeed, come into play with washing a very delicate surface like
car paintwork?

Note that so far I'm raising points that have no bearing on "eco friendly" 
aspects. That's probably because I'm not so much an eco warrior than a guy
who seeks to get to a common point in the most efficient way possible.

I wonder if anyone can name a wax (or even possibly a sealant) that can
resist the water pressure exerted by a PW... Oh, please don't say that the
beading you see afterward is wax. That is so unlikely simply because of the
basic laws of physics; no wax will withstand that kind of onslaught, and raw
clearcoat will bead very well indeed!

If I had spent several hours getting to the point of adding and layering LSP's
on my paintwork, why on earth would I want to almost instantly destroy that
precious protection?

To get back on topic, waterless washes do have their place. Just like we all
wonder at the properties of 21stC products like ONR, then waterless technology
is not standing still. Being that this is the "eco friendly" section, it is worth 
mentioning that as water gets more scarce, then the more laws we are going 
to face that protects it. Unlike oil, we cannot live without it! Anything which 
helps protect that, as well as making our goal so much easier to reach, has
to be given _some_ consideration - _n'est ce pas?_.

In summary, I'm just wondering how these two seemingly unecessary aspects
of car detailing came to become "perceived wisdom"...

Regards,
Steve


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## MilesBetter

....A good challenge, I will let someone braver (and more eloquent) than me pick up that Gauntlet


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## pete5570

I've used ONR as my only method since June and can't fault it's performance. Like all Optimums products,it's brilliant.


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## Ross

I fancy getting some Optimum Opti clean soon.


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## R0B

Lowiepete said:


> Hello Folks,
> 
> Oh dear, I had hoped to keep a low profile in this discussion, simply because
> my writings on this subject are fairly prominent already :buffer:
> 
> However, in a forum where people can get very sniffy over MF cloths, aka
> dusters, I am very surprised that this has gone unchallenged...
> 
> ...especially in the Eco Friendly section!​
> Oh crumbs, now what follows is going to sound like a rant. That's not what is
> meant - honest!
> 
> *Snowfoam*
> Other than being a bit of a "big boy's toy", can someone please explain to me
> both the need and the relevance of this to washing _cars_, not high-sided
> vehicles or tall vans.
> 
> *Power-Washing*
> Now this completely baffles me. Why would a tool that removes moss and
> algae very efficiently from a surface where otherwise you'd need to scrub
> very hard indeed, come into play with washing a very delicate surface like
> car paintwork?
> 
> Note that so far I'm raising points that have no bearing on "eco friendly"
> aspects. That's probably because I'm not so much an eco warrior than a guy
> who seeks to get to a common point in the most efficient way possible.
> 
> I wonder if anyone can name a wax (or even possibly a sealant) that can
> resist the water pressure exerted by a PW... Oh, please don't say that the
> beading you see afterward is wax. That is so unlikely simply because of the
> basic laws of physics; no wax will withstand that kind of onslaught, and raw
> clearcoat will bead very well indeed!
> 
> If I had spent several hours getting to the point of adding and layering LSP's
> on my paintwork, why on earth would I want to almost instantly destroy that
> precious protection?
> 
> To get back on topic, waterless washes do have their place. Just like we all
> wonder at the properties of 21stC products like ONR, then waterless technology
> is not standing still. Being that this is the "eco friendly" section, it is worth
> mentioning that as water gets more scarce, then the more laws we are going
> to face that protects it. Unlike oil, we cannot live without it! Anything which
> helps protect that, as well as making our goal so much easier to reach, has
> to be given _some_ consideration - _n'est ce pas?_.
> 
> In summary, I'm just wondering how these two seemingly unecessary aspects
> of car detailing came to become "perceived wisdom"...
> 
> Regards,
> Steve


Excellent points raised Steve and food for thought regarding the pw 's effect on lsp's


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## MilesBetter

Ross said:


> I fancy getting some Optimum Opti clean soon.


+1 have been keen to give it a try also.


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## hag

Here's my thoughts on opti-clean http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=190837

I used it yesterday as a QD after cleaning the the car with ONR as the car was too dirty. Instead of drying the car after cleaning the entire car's paintwork with ONR I sprayed a 3:1 mix of OC then wiped/cleaned using a plush MF cloth then dried/buffed with another plush dry MF. The results were very good. OC provided extra gloss.

The only problem with OC is the amount needed to clean a car. 4ozs compared to 1oz of ONR. I was wondering if I can use less to provide the same level of safety ie enough lubricity and cleaning effeciency.


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## Lowiepete

steve_70 said:


> ....A good challenge, I will let someone braver (and more eloquent) than me pick up that Gauntlet


Seems like you're not alone Steve. I was heart-in-mouth with that posting,
half expecting to get cyber-lynched. All very quiet - strange that...

BTW, interesting choice of "brave" there  - am I really that scary? :lol:

Regards,
Steve


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## james_death

steve_70 said:


> +1 have been keen to give it a try also.
> 
> ...Is it just me or has theere been a lack of take-up of this product.... as compared to ONR  ...anyone on here championing it or used it at any great length.. would be interested to hear feedback.


I dont think there has been much uptake in part due to time of year as im prety sure most of us would not dare aproach a car with it in these conditions.

We for the most part see the waterless wash as a step above a QD product.
We would only tackle light soiling.

The onr can be used as qd but is so good at a proper wash as so little water used.

For our climate i dont see the waterless wash getting much use other than for shows.

For the majority of the time our climate just provides too heavy a soiling where as oz and states i can see it been of much more use.

The power washer usage is very relavant to the eco section as by its nature it uses so much water.

As Pete says the force of these things can lift paint of the body so wax is no challenge.

Also i find the power washer such a faff about, i can see its value on the big mud pluggers simply to get the thick crud off especially with a underbody lance.

I dont see snow foam as able to pull the muck off the car i can see it giving plenty of slippy suds to run a wash mit over rather than dipping the mit in a bucket of shampoo but not as a touch free clean, heck if the power washer has not blown it off i cant see the foam doing it.

I can see a detailer offering it as there service as its a very visual thing and im sure would make a customer think they are getting there motor a pampering, like taking there dog for a shampoo and groom. ( no i dont do that )


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## james_death

Lowiepete said:


> Seems like you're not alone Steve. I was heart-in-mouth with that posting,
> half expecting to get cyber-lynched. All very quiet - strange that...
> 
> BTW, interesting choice of "brave" there  - am I really that scary? :lol:
> 
> Regards,
> Steve


No not strange its just that the word has not got out yet, sorry to say but i think this section is viewed by some as the silent Special....relative.:lol:


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## james_death

On the snow foam issue i know slight off topic forgive me please.

http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=200029


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## MilesBetter

Lowiepete said:


> Seems like you're not alone Steve. I was heart-in-mouth with that posting,
> half expecting to get cyber-lynched. All very quiet - strange that...
> 
> BTW, interesting choice of "brave" there  - am I really that scary? :lol:
> 
> Regards,
> Steve


lol, didnt mean it quite that sense.... was thinking more scared of the rest of the DW fraternity to stick my head above the trenches on this one 

...as above, no doubt they will be along soon ... @ 'Special Relative' ....:lol:


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## MilesBetter

james_death said:


> ...I dont see snow foam as able to pull the muck off the car i can see it giving plenty of slippy suds to run a wash mit over rather than dipping the mit in a bucket of shampoo but not as a touch free clean, heck if the power washer has not blown it off i cant see the foam doing it....


Right then, head over top of trenches, see if any snipers about 

Seeing is believing, and the only way is to try it for yourself and prove/ disprove any technique to yourself I believe... its all supposition otherwise.

If it doesnt work, job done, put the idea to bed never to be re-visited.

I have therefore taken my own medicine and proved it to myself on the last 4cars as an experiment that I was able to use ONR and Magifoam as a no touch solution for the body, and even on incredibly cruddy cars as well and didnt need to go near them with a mitt or sponge, just the final mop up of the ONR as part of the towel dry phase... i was able to go over with a white MF and spotless clean. On cars with a decent LSP, Magifoam did 100% cleanup almost, on realy cruddy car, it did 90% of the work, but still using my ONR method was still touchless bar the dry down.

I have a very dirty and crusty RS4 detail that I will post up tomorrow, that a bucket and mitt didnt go near...white mf was spotless.

Everyones experiences will differ, just find that it works for me and converted. Everybody has to do what works for them.


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## james_death

Lookforward to the detail, i have noticed the magifoam seams to be an improvement, but not buying more when i still have 10 litres of the old stuff. Which doesnt do enough for me.


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## MilesBetter

james_death said:


> Lookforward to the detail, i have noticed the magifoam seams to be an improvement, but not buying more when i still have 10 litres of the old stuff. Which doesnt do enough for me.


To be fair, I think Magifoam is in a different league or category, it seems very different to other Snow-Foams.


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## MilesBetter

James, I am even considering sending you sample of some because I want to be proved wrong...emperors new clothes comes to mind 

_"...The moral of the Emperor's New Clothes is that one should not believe everything they are told, especially if the evidence does not support the claims..."_


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## Celica steve

Anyone tried this before ?


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## MAUI

Ross said:


> I fancy getting some Optimum Opti clean soon.


Take a look at Ultima, as good as Optimum, but more cost effective and smells better.


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## DIESEL DAVE

Celica steve said:


> Anyone tried this before ?


Yeah certainly have Steve, its been on the market quite a long time and does the job and leaves a good finish but its relatively quite expensive and not quite up to the ease of use of newer products.
I`ve about a dozen 1 litre refill packs of it still.


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## Lowiepete

james_death said:


> For our climate i dont see the waterless wash getting much use other than for shows.


James, for the most part, I agree with what you are saying. However, there
is a counterpoint to this statement. Shopping channels like Ideal World are 
quite heavily pushing waterless products. For example they seem to feature
Greased Lightning products fairly frequently, so it must be a money-spinner
for them. That audience widening must be having some effect.

I've been "detailing" my cars for many years, before I ever became aware of
the term and, until I was afflicted with my disability, I always had the shiniest
car in the street. My interest was re-awakened by Ideal World and the idea 
that I could leave behind the heavy buckets of suds. So I took the plunge and
I've not looked back. By the time I had used the GLSS no more than a few 
times on my previous car, I'd once again regained my "shiny" position.

There is no doubting that GLSS is very good at what it does and I'm not very
surprised to see it rise to the top when compared to kindred products. In our
very limited community here, where some of the advice I've read can only be
described as hair-raising, there is bound to be greater resistance. I just take 
great comfort in the knowledge that with these products I can achieve a 
long-lasting shine but within a small fraction of the time and effort.

I don't subscribe to the view that if you don't PW / Snowfoam / Clay that
somehow you are not a "proper" detailer. All of these things _may_ have their
place in the scheme of things, but you don't _have_ to do them or become a 
"slave to the cause". The harder you make it seem, the more you can put 
people off. I much prefer to emphasise how simple the job can be, especially 
when these modern technologies are leading the way.

Regards,
Steve


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## MilesBetter

Good post Steve. I subscribe to the notion of every product has a place, and what is right in one situation is not maybe in another. I look at the particular task in hand on the per-case basis and use the most effective product to do the job (whatever that maybe)... rather than a slave to buying "product x hyped about this month" ...now where can I use it.


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## RCZ

I know that this thread seems to be bringing up a lot of issues, but seeing as Steve quoted me, I thought I'd better leave some feedback. I'm not afraid of being 'shot down' as I'm still learning about detailing.

I've only been into 'detailing' for 6 months...and relied on this site heavily. I'm now trying to strike a balance between all these factors:

Time required working on the car
Cost of cleaning/detailing products
Protection/appearance

Before all this, my regime included:

1 bucket/sponge with any old wax shampoo
Pressure washer occassionally (if I could be bothered getting it out)
Drive thru car wash 
Local Hand car wash

More recently, I had also discovered Permaclear Waterless car wash. This was easier, quicker and left my car looking better (and had great beading).

In Sept I got a new car and, having a blank canvass, have been keen to keep it looking as good as possible.

I am in favour of minimising my environmental impact (hence the reason for keeping with waterless - at least some of the time) and try to remain pragmatic.

Put simply - dirt and other pollutants are an enemy to your paintwork - both whilst on it and when attempting to remove it. It therefore makes sense to loosen dirt as much as possible before removing it. This is what snow foam and the ingredients in waterless products are trying to do?

On the PW front, I'm not blasting it at close range...and I'm only using it as a rinse. I stand at a distance and always try to keep the spray at an angle. I'm not using a patio cleaning style jet - just a wide rinse. Trust me, if I tried to clean my patio using the same method, I'd be there days!!!

So far, using the methods I've now adopted, my car has NO visible swirls marks (including the black roof) and it doesn't take that long to clean my car. It also stays looking cleaner for longer as rain seems to clean it. On the issue of wax durability, all I can say is that the water still beads like crazy. So much so that at the moment, the car never seems to dry out! It's constantly got beads of water all over it (not getting up to motorway speeds)...or even frozen beads. What's causing that if it's not the LSP?

Totally off-topic, but last week I cleaned my wife's car early in the morning. It was full of water beads (it's also got HD wax on it). It literally took just 10 mins (Qashqai) because the dirt was already moist and I needed less trips from the bucket/washmitt to the bodywork. Great time to clean the car!


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## james_death

I can see the place for the waterless and have used a fair few times during the brief summer and once at start of the worsening winter weather.

Im happy to use it but only on the light soiling and more than happy on a dusty motor.

There was a huge buzz at work when the Mantis came out and a fair few took it up but other than one manager they dont talk about it as they used so much and at £10 a pop it rather put them off.

We all want an easy job of it as time is the killer.

Even the father in laws girlfriend bought him some pro shine or such for christmas.


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## james_death

steve_70 said:


> James, I am even considering sending you sample of some because I want to be proved wrong...emperors new clothes comes to mind
> 
> _"...The moral of the Emperor's New Clothes is that one should not believe everything they are told, especially if the evidence does not support the claims..."_


That would be good i would certainly give it a go but no worrys you dont have too.

The emperors new clothes hay... i heard a great re telling of that on a podcast where it was the emperors brother and he knew they were con men but still came a cropper... but i digress.

No matter what others say we always like to try for ourselves and in many things we all have different tastes and technique...


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## Lowiepete

RCZ said:


> I'm not afraid of being 'shot down' as I'm still learning about detailing.


I know this is going to sound defensive, but it wasn't _you_ that I was trying
to shoot down. The concern that I have is about _some_ of the advice that's
given on here, as I've alluded to in my previous post. There have been some
quite hair-raising posts where people claim "they have been told" and they're
so taken by this initial advice that they dare not stray from it, even though 
it's very clear to you that the advice is totally wrong for someone who's new 
to detailing.

It won't matter how you point it out, they won't be moved, until it all goes
wrong for them; they're left completely isolated, and "detailing" gets a bad 
mark. They won't come back because they'll realise that they've ignored 
the later advice.

I think that I've probably gained a bit of a reputation of being a myth-buster 
on here. I'm certainly not shy in challenging some of the things that are 
propounded as "perceived wisdom". Heck, I even boldly challenge the 2 bucket
method, because with ONR, it's so 1990's!

It's scary to think that it's 50 years ago since I was working after school and
at weekends in my uncle's garage. One challenge that I faced back then was 
bringing back a farmer's 2-tone Zephyr Zodiac in readiness for a wedding. It 
had probably not been polished since new and it's matt finish was pretty 
uniform.

Yes, as I struggled with T-Cut and Simoniz One-Step, I realised that parts of 
detailing can be very hard work, but why people need to make it sound like 
it's harder still is quite beyond me. Surely, the point of a Forum is to try and
encourage, not compare some kind of enslavement. Now, even if it's a choice 
of buckets of suds or not, then for me, waterless will win every time. Thank
goodness for modern technology!

Regards,
Steve


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## RCZ

I realise that some people will argue a certain method because that's the way they do it. I also realise that sometimes people can blind you with science or simply regurgitate what they have heard so it soon becomes accepted 'fact'. Ive been told by quite a few people that I should have clayed my new car. I just thought that was a step too far.

People should take on board info and then make up their own mind. Most people I talk to say that waterless simply can't work and then are stunned when I show them that it does work. I wonder how many people that say waterless can't work on a dirty car have ACTUALLY tried it.


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## MilesBetter

RCZ said:


> ... I wonder how many people that say waterless can't work on a dirty car have ACTUALLY tried it.


EXACTLY :thumb:


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## Lowiepete

RCZ said:


> I've been told by quite a few people that I should have clayed my new car. I just thought that was a step too far.


Strange that, I was told the same thing, and I too repeatedly ignored that 
advice. Despite this, I did wonder for a while whether I was wrong to ignore 
it. Oh boy, from what I've read elsewhere today, am I now glad that I did?

For anyone reading this, claying _can_ be a step too far, especially in cold 
weather! Ignore that and the only solution will be remedial action with a 
polishing machine, in expert hands, and at some cost. Put it another way,
I would only allow or attempt claying _if_ machine polishing was also part of 
the planned detail.



RCZ said:


> I wonder how many people that say waterless can't work on a dirty car have ACTUALLY tried it.


Well, I think the answer to this may be obvious, but even so, I would not 
start, or recommend that a waterless cleaning regime starts, upon an 
_unprotected_ dirty car.

Regards,
Steve


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## MilesBetter

Interestingly I used IronX and the Iron Soap Gel on my last detail as an experiment, did one panel with the 'chemical clay bar' and then to test effectiveness did the other panel with actual clay bar... I noticed the condition of clay, then grabbed another piece and went ove the area where IronX had been. Result was the clay still lifted some contaminants, but was considerably cleaner bar after started and paintwork not significantly smoother to touch than before I started; Almost to the point where the claybar was pretty much redundant as a stage. As above unless was going to be machine polishing I think I will leave out the clay bar and stick with IX as the contaminant routine. I am planning to test again this weekend on our other car that has beenm protected with colly all winter. Plan to strip it back and see how much clay really gets off over, just the Chemical one, this will be a good experiement I am hoping.


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## RCZ

I have used megs clay on my wfe's car when we got it. It was second hand and the clay did end up brown after I'd used it. The paint was also much smoother to the touch. Having said that, I understand the Megs is quite a 'gentle' clay.


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## DetailMyCar

I just used the Eureka Waterless cleaner for the first time and couldn't believe how well it worked! 

Give it a try - i think it's about £10 with 8 x MF Cloths if you search for it on Ebay?


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## Chris CPT

Celica steve said:


> Anyone tried this before ?


Yes. http://carproductstested.com/category/exterior-product-reviews/waterless/


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## Ally

Please go easy on a relative newbie here...

I'm investigating waterless wash stuff for use on my VW camper: we've got a 3-week, 3k mile Euro tour planned for the summer and I refuse to go the whole time without washing it - OCD won't let me LOL. Jetwashes/etc are no-go and campsites don't exactly like you using their water for that purpose. 

1/ All these abreviations have got me lost! Could someone enlighten me so I can do a bit of further research:
ONR?
GLSS?
Any others I've missed?

2/ And is there any particular product that'd be best for my situation? It'll mainly be road grime and removing fly-splats from the front. Paintwork is white, mainly metal but fibreglass roof, using Collinite 476. Main issue is the size of the fecking van - it's a LWB VW T5 transporter, so basically 5.3m long and a LOT of bodywork... 

Cheers


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## MilesBetter

ONR - Optimum No Rinse
GLSS - Greased Lightning Showroom Shine

Maybe Optimum Opti-Clean is worth a look. Not tried it myself. Its derived from Optimum No Rinse, but with added lube and different polymers etc I believe.


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## pete5570

If you uy the larger concentrated Opticlean, it works out good VFM.


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## Dream Machines

I switched from using Glare Ultra Wash the traditional sponge and bucket way which is crap to a semi waterless method with it and its simply amazing. can see the glass skin building up on the paint


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## RCZ

Ally said:


> Please go easy on a relative newbie here...
> 
> I'm investigating waterless wash stuff for use on my VW camper: we've got a 3-week, 3k mile Euro tour planned for the summer and I refuse to go the whole time without washing it - OCD won't let me LOL. Jetwashes/etc are no-go and campsites don't exactly like you using their water for that purpose.
> 
> 1/ All these abreviations have got me lost! Could someone enlighten me so I can do a bit of further research:
> ONR?
> GLSS?
> Any others I've missed?
> 
> 2/ And is there any particular product that'd be best for my situation? It'll mainly be road grime and removing fly-splats from the front. Paintwork is white, mainly metal but fibreglass roof, using Collinite 476. Main issue is the size of the fecking van - it's a LWB VW T5 transporter, so basically 5.3m long and a LOT of bodywork...
> 
> Cheers


This is the stuff I use and have been very impressed. This is the cheapest I've seen it as they've got free delivery, 2 MF cloths and an air freshener!
Permaclear


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## gally

Lowiepete said:


> Hello Folks,
> 
> Oh dear, I had hoped to keep a low profile in this discussion, simply because
> my writings on this subject are fairly prominent already :buffer:
> 
> However, in a forum where people can get very sniffy over MF cloths, aka
> dusters, I am very surprised that this has gone unchallenged...
> 
> ...especially in the Eco Friendly section!​
> Oh crumbs, now what follows is going to sound like a rant. That's not what is
> meant - honest!
> 
> *Snowfoam*
> Other than being a bit of a "big boy's toy", can someone please explain to me
> both the need and the relevance of this to washing _cars_, not high-sided
> vehicles or tall vans.
> 
> *Power-Washing*
> Now this completely baffles me. Why would a tool that removes moss and
> algae very efficiently from a surface where otherwise you'd need to scrub
> very hard indeed, come into play with washing a very delicate surface like
> car paintwork?
> 
> Note that so far I'm raising points that have no bearing on "eco friendly"
> aspects. That's probably because I'm not so much an eco warrior than a guy
> who seeks to get to a common point in the most efficient way possible.
> 
> I wonder if anyone can name a wax (or even possibly a sealant) that can
> resist the water pressure exerted by a PW... Oh, please don't say that the
> beading you see afterward is wax. That is so unlikely simply because of the
> basic laws of physics; no wax will withstand that kind of onslaught, and raw
> clearcoat will bead very well indeed!
> 
> If I had spent several hours getting to the point of adding and layering LSP's
> on my paintwork, why on earth would I want to almost instantly destroy that
> precious protection?
> 
> To get back on topic, waterless washes do have their place. Just like we all
> wonder at the properties of 21stC products like ONR, then waterless technology
> is not standing still. Being that this is the "eco friendly" section, it is worth
> mentioning that as water gets more scarce, then the more laws we are going
> to face that protects it. Unlike oil, we cannot live without it! Anything which
> helps protect that, as well as making our goal so much easier to reach, has
> to be given _some_ consideration - _n'est ce pas?_.
> 
> In summary, I'm just wondering how these two seemingly unecessary aspects
> of car detailing came to become "perceived wisdom"...
> 
> Regards,
> Steve


Are you seriously trying to say a PW strips a car of it's protection?

Baring in mind you're on a detailing site where PW's are used daily against £1000's of pounds worth of wax.



james_death said:


> I dont think there has been much uptake in part due to time of year as im prety sure most of us would not dare aproach a car with it in these conditions.
> 
> We for the most part see the waterless wash as a step above a QD product.
> We would only tackle light soiling.
> 
> The onr can be used as qd but is so good at a proper wash as so little water used.
> 
> For our climate i dont see the waterless wash getting much use other than for shows.
> 
> For the majority of the time our climate just provides too heavy a soiling where as oz and states i can see it been of much more use.
> 
> The power washer usage is very relavant to the eco section as by its nature it uses so much water.
> 
> As Pete says the force of these things can lift paint of the body so wax is no challenge.
> 
> Also i find the power washer such a faff about, i can see its value on the big mud pluggers simply to get the thick crud off especially with a underbody lance.
> 
> *I dont see snow foam as able to pull the muck off the car i can see it giving plenty of slippy suds to run a wash mit over rather than dipping the mit in a bucket of shampoo but not as a touch free clean, heck if the power washer has not blown it off i cant see the foam doing it.*
> 
> I can see a detailer offering it as there service as its a very visual thing and im sure would make a customer think they are getting there motor a pampering, like taking there dog for a shampoo and groom. ( no i dont do that )


You really don't see how snow foam pulls dirt off a car? Have you actually seen any threads on DW by any chance? That's a ludicrous thing to say.

It's also in helping reduce marring when using the 2BM. A pw and then a snow foam will lift most dirt off the car before needing to go near it with a mitt.

Pete thinks people have an agenda against him because he doesn't use the "usual" methods.

I'm sorry Pete but you're not _that_ important, no one really cares how you wash the car, you're no less of a detailer than Jay or Marc or Kelly to name but a few. So jump down off that horse and stop assuming everybody thinks you're less of a detailer because you don't use a PW.


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## MilesBetter

Dream Machines said:


> I switched from using Glare Ultra Wash the traditional sponge and bucket way which is crap to a semi waterless method with it and its simply amazing. can see the glass skin building up on the paint


Interesting stuff (did a google on it, or because I am a Micro'softie, I googled it with Bing ), would be keen to hear more of your technique as less-water washes are the way ahead I believe.


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## mark wB

ive used the GLARE sahara stuff aswel as proshine and both give a similar effect too me


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## james_death

gally said:


> You really don't see how snow foam pulls dirt off a car? Have you actually seen any threads on DW by any chance? That's a ludicrous thing to say.
> 
> .


I have seen the threads hell thats why i got 10 litres of snow foam bought the lance and a power washer all just to snow foam.

It could be that my cars have not been that dirty to see it fall off in the suds.

Perhaps the dirt has not been dense enough to see it fall off but as such what dirt was on did not fall off.

I comment on my own experience of trying a product as stated i like the look of it on a car and like the feel under a wash mitt but i still have not used it since 4 washes with it.

I try something and post on my personal findings.

I got the glass cleaner on your recommend and tried it myself, but for me i have not used it again and got the carlack.

The point of the forum is to pass on your own personal findings and experiences its still down to the individuals to what they buy all we can do is post our findings.


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## gally

I understand that James but to say snowfoam does not clean your car is absolutley ludicrous! It's actually ignoring the truth, this also isn't an opinion, it's fact.

The screen cleaner is exactly that mate, a cleaner not a sealent, I think people were expecting maybe a little too much from it. I've yet to see anything clean glass like that stuff though, it's unsmearble imo.


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## Lowiepete

gally said:


> Pete thinks people have an agenda against him because he doesn't use the "usual" methods.


My "agenda" is to try and point out the futility of things like PW and snowfoam,
especially in winter when its uses are very limited, when we have access to
some wonderful 21stC technology which not only works, but saves work by
the bucket-load.

It doesn't really matter what methods others use. However, when they make
complaints about the availability of their favourite technique, then decide that
they can't be bothered when they do get a window of opportunity, it really 
does make you wonder. These techniques which are over the top in terms of 
plain hard work have now been superceded by methods which are very quick, 
very simple and above all, very effective.

I don't believe that a case for snow-foam, on a car, has been made. You still
need to touch the paintwork with a mitt afterward. Why not just use ONR
and let that cut through the dirt, which it does very effectively. I suppose
that there's room for big-boys' toys in the summer, when you can be seen
outside posing beside your wheels - but in winter..?

Regards,
Steve


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## gally

Imo Snow Foam is more relevant in the winter where there is more danger of inflicting damage with heavy soiling on the car. A pre-soak with ONR would be using the methology.

ONR in case you have forgotten isn't that far removed from the everyday methods that most people use. 2BM for example.

If you look back through my posts in this thread and others you'll see i've never once mentioned a bad word against ONR or any other waterless products.


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## chillly

Citrus Waterless Car Wash 5 Litre

Might be of use to some

From these guys. www.carchem.co.uk/

This looks handy too. Wax Rinse 5 Litre £6.99


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## gkerr4

this is an interesting thread!

I've recently tried ONR and was impressed - it's best descibed as a "less-water" wash than a wasterless one though (as pointed out alread) - i'll admit it takes some guts to take that first wipe with the soaking cloth though, but it does work and leaves (as you'd expect) less water in panel gaps and the like to suddelny leap out when you are trying to remove wax later on! - good stuff and i'll be using it again - I think there must be a technique to gain when using ONR and I need to get some more practice.

I have also tried the GLSS stuff - and again I was impressed!! - My father went on about it for ages last year - he got some in the spring after seeing it on a shopping channel - he actually bought me some as I scorned it initially. I tried it - it works - even on reasonably dirty cars (i.e. more than 'dusty' cars) - it cleans, leaves a shine and doesn't seem to cause any marring or damage. I have one concern though, i think it was rather effective at removing whatever LSP was on the car to begin with - it uses petroleum distillates as it's thinner so this is possible yeah? - in the case of GLSS it leaves something behind itself, but it isn't as good or long lasting as what ever else you might use and if you use GLSS regularly it quickly becomes a very uneconomical product to use!

I love it on windows though - it is an awesome glass cleaner - leaves an amazing finish and the protection it puts on makes water bead off the glass (not tried it on the screen as I have G1 there)

finally - I also have a PW and snowfoam - i agree that it has MORE relevance in the winter where it can be used to remove salt and the like before washing. I often add some shampoo to the mix (CG Maxisuds) and actually take wash mitt to the car withthe snowfoam applied - this makes for a quick clean and is rather effective too.

we have to admit though - foaming is about the fun element as much as anything else yeah? - nothing wrong with that though - what would a hobby be if we didn't derive enjoyment from it!!


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## MilesBetter

Let me start off by saying that I am one of the biggest advocate and evanglist for ONR and use in every detail now. In the winter it simply comes into its own, every product has its place.

Search does indeed bring up several cases for snowfoam... and one one in particular is Magifoam.

There is indeed a case for snow foam.

As well as the below there are plenty more cases by CLICKING HERE 

Case 1 & 2 http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=197534

Case 3 below



aba said:


> Touchless.......
> 
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> 
> Drying towel was clean


Case 4 Below



DNZ 21 said:


> Got mine the other day after reading good things about it. The car hadnt been washed for about 2 weeks due to the weather and work commitments so had decent amount of road grime stuck to it. Foamed straight onto the dry car and left for about 20mins (would have left it longer but it was getting dark) then rinsed off. Didnt wash with the 2bm after that as this was just to see what sort of cleaning the foam could actually do.
> 
> Car before
> 
> 
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> Car straight after rinsing
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> 
> It did a good job of getting the muck off and will be my foam of choice from now on. I can see by the time summer comes round and the roads arnt as dirty a quick foam, rinse and dry could do nicely for a quick wash.


Some more of the Threads, where you will have to agree that the right Foam Product Does indeed have a valid case ...

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CBIQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.detailingworld.co.uk%2Fforum%2Fshowthread.php%3Ft%3D199284&ei=CzZMTZ_yNcHDhAfz5PmFDw&usg=AFQjCNH_9XdGMl-zLhlQOHX8hpp0KUkJ4w

http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=195227

http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?p=2549833

http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=197870

http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=200073


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## gally

Snow foam is just a waste of product, right?



Oh wait... 

Hi Steve.


----------



## MilesBetter

gally said:


> Snow foam is just a waste of product, right?
> 
> Oh wait...
> 
> Hi Steve.


:wave::wave:


----------



## Lowiepete

gally said:


> Snow foam is just a waste of product, right?


Am I meant to bite? Oh dear...

Regards,
Steve


----------



## gally

Lowiepete said:


> Am I meant to bite? Oh dear...
> 
> Regards,
> Steve


Just a little private joke mate, no line was cast.

I can tell from your posts you're not one for petty arguments, you carry yourself very well.


----------



## DIESEL DAVE

gally said:


> Just a little private joke mate, no line was cast.
> 
> I can tell from your posts you're not one for petty arguments, you carry yourself very well.


Yeah he`s an ok lad and you seem like a canny fella as well :thumb:

Group hug ?


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## gally

Of course mate.


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## MilesBetter




----------



## Lowiepete

DIESEL DAVE said:


> Group hug ?


Is this giving new meaning to "eco friendly"?? :lol:

Regards,
Steve


----------

