# Bmw orange peel reduction.



## Hercs74 (Dec 29, 2011)

Today I thought I would try my hand at a little wet sanding. Ive had a bash before on a single stage paint, which was a panel obtained from a breakers yard. I had some great results.

I have a BMW F20 in Crimson Red, a solid paint. I decided to give the rear bumper a go. The bumper was washed, de tarred and then clayed with BH Medium clay.

So here is the before pictures.








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As it was a first attempt I decided to go straight with P2500 paper. I then refined through P3000 and P4000.

This was the finished refinement of wet sanding.







The rear bumper was then polished with a CG Hydrotech Blue pad on a DAS 6 Pro with Scholl s17+. Followed by Scholl s40 on a CG Hydrotech Red Pad. My blue pad was collapsed towards the centre, so I am wondering whether the pads were past their sell by date so as to speak..????

I noticed during polishing that there was still some still deeper wet sanding marks present. This is where I need DW assistance. Should I have started with P1200 paper and refined through P2500 and then P4000. I must admit the refinement of the wet sanding was not as reflective as I had anticipated, i was expecting a slightly higher degree of let say a dull reflection.

Anyway here is the finished result. There is still orange peel present. I take it that would be due to maybe not attacking the orange peel with a course enough paper..???

The finished bumper was given 2 coats of C2V3...





Well thanks for taking time to read, and any advice would be appreciated. I would like to do the whole car...!!!! Brave I know....!!!!!

:thumb:


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## Andyuk911 (Sep 10, 2006)

Nice job and big balls:thumb:


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## snoopin (Jul 26, 2009)

Looks a lot better though in the after pics mate.... sure one of the pro's will be along soon with some top advice


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## Stevesuds (Jun 11, 2012)

Not knowing what an F20 is I have no idea what age your car is so cant relate to the paint it has on it but, I would have been tempted to go courser to start as over the years the grits seem to have got finer. However, you have made a great improvement. Maybe another refining pass to try and bring it up a bit more?


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## Scotty Pro (Nov 12, 2008)

Wow, you've got some bottle mate. I wouldn't contemplate to attempt something like that, but I must say it seems to be a nice improvement on the original panel.


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## Hercs74 (Dec 29, 2011)

F20 = 1 Series BMW Sport on a 12 Plate. 14 Months Old. Owned since new...!!!!


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## Stevesuds (Jun 11, 2012)

Nice but that means thinner, softer, water based paint so be careful


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## Hercs74 (Dec 29, 2011)

I thought BMW was hard as nails 😯


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## colarado red (Jun 5, 2008)

Top work


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## TopSport+ (Jul 22, 2012)

nice mate


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## Hercs74 (Dec 29, 2011)

Thanks for comments so far... I feel its far from perfect, and the gloss / reflection still has vast room for improvement. But it's my first real bash on a real modern car... So pleased so far. I'm going to try another panel either tomorrow or Friday, weather permitting. I may drop down to P1200 or P1500 followed by P2500 and then P4000. I'll throw this idea out to the floor for opinions....


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## mlgt (Apr 11, 2008)

Do you have a paint reader? I have a 08 E61 and wet sanded the rear bumper and had mixed results. Wasnt full able to remove all of the orange peel and tried this with precaution. I only took off a few microns. I used 2000,2500 and refined with 3000. Scholl products used. Its taken most of the swirls out, but unearthed more light scratches.


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## Hercs74 (Dec 29, 2011)

No paint gauge..!!!!! 😔😞... 

I initially wet sanded and was all in one direction. And I discovered lots of scratches. I hit it again with the P4000 but when 90 degrees in opposite direction. I found this removed it..

So my next panel I'm going to do P1500 or P 2000 in one direction and P3000 at 45 degrees from the previous, and P4000 at the opposite 45 degree angle... My theory and thought process is that it will flatten the micro ridges, indentations caused by the sanding and hopefully provide a better refinement..?????


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## Hercs74 (Dec 29, 2011)

I have just sourced some P5000 wet and dry... So I now think I will attack the orange peel in this manor.... P2000, P3000 refined with P5000....!!!!!!!!

What do we think....????


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## Hercs74 (Dec 29, 2011)

The P5000 has just arrived... Although weather forecast for tomorrow is not brilliant, I think my pop up gazebo will be coming out and I will be starting on the bonnet ......!!!!!!!


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## jolls (Dec 25, 2012)

Years ago when I started work at a car bodyshop I was taught to flat the paint one way and polish across the flatting marks (ie 90 degrees) as you could see any flatting marks that may have been left. This was when polishing by hand using Farecla G7 (I did say years ago!) so I can see your logic regarding flatting at different angles. Personally I would tend to flat mainly in one direction with a sanding block and never going over the same patch twice in succession. When you have polished if you have any deep flatting marks left then flat across these gently still using a sanding block. As you have no paint depth gauge I would steer clear of using the 1200 and 1500 and test a part panel with 3000 first.


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## rojer386 (Mar 15, 2008)

As previously said.....big balls to do that to a new car. Well done. 

I have a 1 Series and the orange peel is really annoying, don't have the balls to wet sand though.


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## Hercs74 (Dec 29, 2011)

Really appreciate all your comments and tips etc.... My plan for the bonnet is p2000, P3000 and P5000.. You can do all the research in the world, and everyone has their own thoughts opinions and ways to carry out a task, but there is only one real true way to learn a skill and that is too physically do it..!!! I've researched loads, I've practised on panels.. Time to give it a real go..!! 

I take my time, I do it slow, and I follow all the guides I've researched and advice I have received..!!

If weather holds for tomorrow I will crack on, and pictures will be posted showing how the day went..!!! 

I am deeply grateful and please continue to follow my work and progress


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## Hercs74 (Dec 29, 2011)

Weathers fine here so I've started the bonnet.. 3/4 way through on P2000....


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## Hercs74 (Dec 29, 2011)

*PROGRESS UPDATE*

So today I spent 7 hours wet sanding / flattening the bonnet of my BMW F20.

Here is a before image. Bonnet has been cleaned, de tar'd, iron X and clayed with BH medium clay.










A few stone chips had been painted in about a week ago with my own mix of colour and lacquer of the genuine BMW paint. These were flattened with P1200




























Here is the condition of the paint work. It had a light machine polish on delivery to enhance gloss slightly. It has had no treatment apart from a coat of FK1000p and Coli 476s










I then started with P2000. I used a bucket of soapy (fairy) water to keep the paper wet and well lubed.










I then refined through P3000 and then P5000 paper. This being the result.



















I then polished using a DAS6 Pro, LC Cyan Hydro tech Pad. 1st Attempt, at 5500 rpm slow movement 6 passes produced these results.










I then had a second run over again. Same set up passes etc. Produced these results.



















I then ran out of time. I have noticed under very close inspection that there are still some random slightly deep score marks from the sanding, which I am putting down to the fact that I may not have done quite enough refinement through the P3000 and P5000 stages. Also not that the bonnet has yet to be polished further with s30+ and s40+ to bring out the gloss further. Due to the slight presence of the remaining sanding marks, I plan to continue tomorrow and concentrate on refinement at P5000 to eliminate these, and then machine polish with s17+ again and then continue on with s30+ and s40+.

Here is a side by side comparison of the before and after so far.....

BEFORE










AFTER










There is still slight orange peel present, but this is my first attempt at flattening, so I do not expect to obtain a perfect finish first time around. As always any feed back, thoughts, opinions greatly received....


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## Hercs74 (Dec 29, 2011)

DAY 2 for the Bonnet. Another 6 hours of work.

So as I was not so overly happy with yesterdays result, I went back to it. Some of the more prominent remaining wet sanding marks were refined with P3000 and P5000. Once these had been completed I then hit the whole bonnet again with P5000.

Upon completion I started to polish with s17+ and a Cyan LC Hydro Tech pad. Then I moved on to a Tangerine LC HT pad with s30+ working at around 3500 rpm. The surface was then finished up with s40+ on a 3m Blue Perfect III Finish pad. I then wiped down the bonnet twice with IPA, gave it 15 mins to make sure it was all well evaporated and then applied 3 layers of Gtechniq C2 v3.

And here is the final result. Its been very dull and overcast so the shots do not do much justice, but I am hoping the sun will break tomorrow at some point so I can get at least one half decent shot.





































So a total of 13 hours to complete.........!!!!!!!!


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## Hercs74 (Dec 29, 2011)

Gave the car a quick wash, and tidy up inside... Took all of 3 hours....!! So I thought I'd have a see at how good the C2v3 is in relation to water reaction.

So here is a short video of water run off from a hose with no nozzle attached.....



And here is the reaction from nozzle attached, set to medium spray....


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## spenstar (May 11, 2010)

well done. Could you please take a picture where you painted stonechips? id like to see how it was done.


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## Hercs74 (Dec 29, 2011)

In a nut shell.... I filled the stone chips in with my own mix of colour and lacquer from BMW. I left it to cure and harden for about 10 days (purely cos weather was naff). I flattened the areas painted with P1200 and then once off I carried on as with the whole bonnet.

I cant take a picture of the finished result cos I would struggle to find it if I could find them at all... Yes there not noticeable....!!!!!

I'll have a look tomorrow see if I can pin point them. But today when I expected it after cleaning the car I was struggling, but I'll try see if my Sun Gun helps..!!!!


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## P.A.D (Jun 26, 2008)

The deep scratches are very likely to be dirt under the paper. Noticed you left the number plate on?? which definately will have dirt trapped behind it.

Dirt / Grit under the paper is usually the result of deep scratching during this process.

Take parts of the car that may have trapped debris / dirt behind them and so less chance of anything getting on panels or paper.

Russell


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## Hercs74 (Dec 29, 2011)

Thanks Russell.. I did consider this as I had purchased a sanding pad from the bay if flees to do stone chip repair and I was using this and could see bold sanding marks.. Upon looking at sanding pad I noticed it was if a poor finish, so went to a motor spares shop and purchased a good quality fine block.!!

I used a big bucket of soapy water and rinsed and washed block very regularly..

There is still slight orange peel present, so I still have a little more to play with. Just wish I could get it spot in,but obviously something I'm going is just not quite right...!!! 


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## Nally (May 30, 2012)

Melbourne red ?


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## Hercs74 (Dec 29, 2011)

Crimson Red......


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## Nally (May 30, 2012)

My dad has the new 3 series the Melbourne red and its one of the worst colours for showing oronge peel.


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## Roger440 (May 6, 2013)

P.A.D said:


> The deep scratches are very likely to be dirt under the paper. Noticed you left the number plate on?? which definately will have dirt trapped behind it.
> 
> Dirt / Grit under the paper is usually the result of deep scratching during this process.
> 
> ...


Agree with this ^^^^^.

Ive always found its hard to stop grit getting under the paper. I gave up and moved to using Trizact discs on a DA. Much quicker, but surprisingly controllable.


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## Hercs74 (Dec 29, 2011)

Bally I couldn't agree more... I've looked at a lot of different colour BMW's since getting mine and my Crimson Red is shocking.. It seems to be solid colours which show the orange peel most, particularly on the vertical panels... I assume Melbourne Red is a solid????? Next time I'll be going Metallic...


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## Hercs74 (Dec 29, 2011)

Roger440 said:


> Agree with this ^^^^^.
> 
> Ive always found its hard to stop grit getting under the paper. I gave up and moved to using Trizact discs on a DA. Much quicker, but surprisingly controllable.


Roger...Heard lots about Trizact Discs especially as they go to P6000. I wasn't to sure if they were really suited for DA due to the orbit etc.. If you could advise further I would appreciate it. I'll start doing a little research in to these. Maybe this is the way forward....?????

Cheers Dave


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## Hercs74 (Dec 29, 2011)

After a night of rain here is what had settled on the C2V3


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## Swervin_Mervin (Mar 29, 2008)

Interesting stuff. Few years back Ian at FD did a full correction on my brand new Clio 197, which ws Ultra Red.

Looked great but I couldn't get over the orange peel!

You're a brave man doing that on such a new car though, fair play!


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## Hercs74 (Dec 29, 2011)

Swervin_Mervin said:


> Interesting stuff. Few years back Ian at FD did a full correction on my brand new Clio 197, which ws Ultra Red.
> 
> Looked great but I couldn't get over the orange peel!
> 
> You're a brave man doing that on such a new car though, fair play!


It's much better, but far from perfect or ideal. Had a look under a sodium light and it has shown up some floors in my work, so some more correction to be done unfortunately.....


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## huvo (Dec 14, 2009)

Just for a bit of info I asked on DW why wet/dry is soaked for a number of days before use. Reply came back explaining that the abrasives soften over time thus resulting in less harsh sanding marks being left. Might be worth considering soaking paper for longer. HTH


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## BigAshD (Feb 23, 2012)

There was a recent post with a guy doing his black golf. He'd been on one of KDS's wet-sanding courses. There was some comment about looking around different angles after doing the coarse sanding, because that's where you get rid of the orange peel (presume the rest is to then reduce the effects of sanding). I think his main point was that he was surprised how much had to be done at the initial sanding stage. 

There was also a really good wet-sand of a black Impreza on here about 9 months ago (I think) - could be worth digging through to find that. He did a panel at a time, day at a time, and his write-up was very good. Anyone who attacks with sand-paper is brave (I did the front valance of my RR Sport and was crapping until I refined it OK - but that's white, soft, and very forgiving). Good luck mate.


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## Hercs74 (Dec 29, 2011)

huvo said:


> Just for a bit of info I asked on DW why wet/dry is soaked for a number of days before use. Reply came back explaining that the abrasives soften over time thus resulting in less harsh sanding marks being left. Might be worth considering soaking paper for longer. HTH


Sounds like a plan..!!!something to seriously consider, however brutish weather so poor at mo its difficult to plan... But I definitely going to give it a whirl.. Thanks

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## Hercs74 (Dec 29, 2011)

BigAshD said:


> There was a recent post with a guy doing his black golf. He'd been on one of KDS's wet-sanding courses. There was some comment about looking around different angles after doing the coarse sanding, because that's where you get rid of the orange peel (presume the rest is to then reduce the effects of sanding). I think his main point was that he was surprised how much had to be done at the initial sanding stage.
> 
> There was also a really good wet-sand of a black Impreza on here about 9 months ago (I think) - could be worth digging through to find that. He did a panel at a time, day at a time, and his write-up was very good. Anyone who attacks with sand-paper is brave (I did the front valance of my RR Sport and was crapping until I refined it OK - but that's white, soft, and very forgiving). Good luck mate.


I'll look into this, see if I can find the threads..!!!!

Cheers

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## Roger440 (May 6, 2013)

Hercs74 said:


> Roger...Heard lots about Trizact Discs especially as they go to P6000. I wasn't to sure if they were really suited for DA due to the orbit etc.. If you could advise further I would appreciate it. I'll start doing a little research in to these. Maybe this is the way forward....?????
> 
> Cheers Dave


I use a DA that was really for bodywork. Not sure how different that is. Not much i guess. But, for most of it using a 3M soft interface pad.

When i did my charger after painting, i knocked it back with P3000 trizact discs. Where i had a bit more orange peel, i used the 3M 260L discs which are a bit coarser, then followed with 3000 trizact. Because you are doing it dry, its really easy to see where you have been. Dont have any "in-process" pics.

After that, i went to 3M fact cut compound and that from there in the normal manner..

I just found it so much easier and quicker than wet sanding. For the edges etc, 3M do a hand pad for the trizact disc.

Didn't use the 6000, but would next time i think.

Here is a pic of the end result.


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## Hercs74 (Dec 29, 2011)

Been back at it today... From my original effort there was some deeper marks which were most probably as a result of dirt either within the paper or between the paper and sanding block.. As the car had done a few miles since I started I went back to 2 BM wash, de tar, iron X and clayed. 

I then refined the bonnet with p5000. This took out the gloss shine and highlighted the deeper marks. The areas which looked bad were tackled with P2500 until they vanished, and then I refined through P3000, P4000 and P5000.

I then polished using Scholl S3 Gold with Scholl purple pad. Followed by S17+ on a 3m yellow Pad.

It's taken 4.5 hours to re wet sand the whole bonnet and polish half with s3 Gold and s17+. 

Half bonnet to go and then to finish. This will be either s30+ or s40+. Not quite decided yet...

Will continue tomorrow.. Will try sort out uploading pic so far..!!!

It's not perfect but its a great degree better. Still slight occasion minor evidence of parts of a swirl, but feel this is down to technique ...!!!!


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## sprocketser (Aug 4, 2012)

That s some job in there on a new ride !


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## Hercs74 (Dec 29, 2011)

Yes it certainly is..!!! Hopefully with the homing of my skills the rest of the car should be a little easier, still long time to completion...!!!! 


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## Hercs74 (Dec 29, 2011)

As promised here is the half which is almost done.. Just requires finishing with either s40+ or s40+..!!!









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## Hercs74 (Dec 29, 2011)

The orange peel greatly reduced..!!! Not 100 % but a good reflection.. 


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## astonhold (Feb 29, 2012)

Looks immense! Really impressive stuff. Think I need to master polishing first, but would love to give this a go


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## sprocketser (Aug 4, 2012)

I ll tell you mate , not much people would do what you did , they all think their paint & also fit & finsh is perfect because it s out from factory & it s new .


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## Hercs74 (Dec 29, 2011)

sprocketser said:


> I ll tell you mate , not much people would do what you did , they all think their paint & also fit & finsh is perfect because it s out from factory & it s new .


So did I until I came onto this forum. Little do people know or realise....


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## Hercs74 (Dec 29, 2011)

Well another whole day on the bonnet. Today I brought the opposite half in line with work I did yesterday.

Then I spent sometime refining as follows;

S3 Gold on blue CG HT pad

S17+ on Yellow 3M Pad

S30+ on tangerine CG HT pad

S40+ on red CG HT pad.

And here is the final result......









Just the rest of the car to concur now... Have a few things on at work, training courses etc so it will be a couple of weeks before I get to move on to next panel.....!!!!!


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## astonhold (Feb 29, 2012)

Might be my iPad, but the image looks low quality and I know the reflection will look better with a better uploaded photo!


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## Hercs74 (Dec 29, 2011)

It's not your ipad, its the crap quality of the cameras on the iPhones...!!!


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## Hercs74 (Dec 29, 2011)

I'll take a pic with proper camera tomorrow and upload


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## astonhold (Feb 29, 2012)

You must! Having spent so long it, you have got to show us how great the results truly are!


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## Hercs74 (Dec 29, 2011)

OK.. Here are some better quality shots. The car is already covered in dust, which shows in the picture, due to builders working opposite...  :wall:

Here is a couple of panels emphasising the orange peel...





And here is the completed bonnet reflection. Note car was thoroughly washed all over last night, and 2 coats of Gtechniq c2v3 had been applied to the bonnet and allowed an hour to cure...



In the final picture your notice a deep mark, which I think is due to some grit / dirt in the paper or on the sanding block. On my first attempt these were quite a few of these scattered about, hence the second go at refinement. There is just one of two which I could find now, so a great improvement.



For a first attempt, and having only practised on small panels of old fiesta's, I'm really pleased with the final result. I reckon in total I've spent around 30 hours doing the bonnet...!!!!

:thumb:


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## halam (Apr 7, 2011)

stunning results! where did you get your sand paper from?


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## Hercs74 (Dec 29, 2011)

I got the P3000, P4000 & P5000 from the bay of flees....!!!!!


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## astonhold (Feb 29, 2012)

That is amazing! Nicely done fella


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## halam (Apr 7, 2011)

any links?


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## Hercs74 (Dec 29, 2011)

Here is where I purchased my paper from....

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Wet-and-D..._Body_Shop_Supplies_Paint&hash=item416f3a2324


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## gurj001 (Apr 15, 2011)

Personally I stick to 3M or Megs wet and dry after a bad experience with cheaper paper leaving behind random deeper marks not consistent with the grit rating


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## Hercs74 (Dec 29, 2011)

gurj001 said:


> Personally I stick to 3M or Megs wet and dry after a bad experience with cheaper paper leaving behind random deeper marks not consistent with the grit rating


Must admit that has been evident in some places which originally put down to dirt either on paper or sanding block surface, but I'm starting to wonder..!!!!!!


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## Hercs74 (Dec 29, 2011)

So where's best place to get 3m from


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## gurj001 (Apr 15, 2011)

Plenty of 3M and Megs Unigrit on eBay or find a local auto paint shop via tradegroup.co.uk


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