# should i protect brand new leather interior ?



## MA09 (Mar 28, 2011)

Hello folks, what are your opinions on protecting the leather interior on my new car ? 

Its proper leather, not leather-ish..:thumb:

the car is only a few days old..


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## Deeper Detail (Oct 31, 2010)

I'd let it bed in for a couple of weeks, let it stretch and get a little more supple naturally, then keep on top of it with Gliptone Liquid Leather Conditioner or something like, to keep it supple and protect against any future cracking... Any future stains or spills I usually use a very well diluted apc....


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## hutchingsp (Apr 15, 2006)

There are a lot of opinions (and threads) on looking after leather.

I had leather on my last car from new and looked after it using Gliptone. I've just had a brand new car which has leather and I'm going to use the Dr Leather leather wipes as they're one product that I don't recall reading anything bad about.


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## The Cueball (Feb 8, 2007)

New leather doesn't need the conditioners/cleaners etc..

Just wasting money....

:thumb:


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## judyb (Sep 7, 2007)

New leather should be protected from the start particulalry if it is a pale colour. Protecting the leather will make it easier to keep clean and in good condition and helap prevent cracking and abrassion. Pale coloured leather suffers from dye transfer and using a protector together with regular cleaning will inhibit this form happening. 
Trying to clean leather once it is allowed to get dirty can be difficult if it hasn't been protected and not keeping it clean will cause damage to the finish which will then need replacing.

Generally speaking the best way to keep leather clean and in good condition is to follow 3 important steps

Protect from new
Maintain with a cleaner/protector
Deep clean once or twice a year

As has been said please do not use 'conditioners' as these do not do anything on finished leather and can attract more dirt.

Hope this helps

Judyb


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## Deeper Detail (Oct 31, 2010)

The Cueball said:


> New leather doesn't need the conditioners/cleaners etc..
> 
> Just wasting money....
> 
> :thumb:


As in ever? :doublesho That sounds brilliant lol


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## The Cueball (Feb 8, 2007)

RuFfBoY said:


> As in ever? :doublesho That sounds brilliant lol


Yeah, I just use APC and a microfiber cloth for a clean every week...

:thumb:


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## judyb (Sep 7, 2007)

It is not recommended to use microfibre cloths to clean leather as these will begin to remove the finish if it is at all weak.


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## hutchingsp (Apr 15, 2006)

judyb said:


> It is not recommended to use microfibre cloths to clean leather as these will begin to remove the finish if it is at all weak.


That is something I'd thought about before, but I thought I was being a little too paranoid, plus my leather is new/good enough that it seemed very unlikely.


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## The Cueball (Feb 8, 2007)

judyb said:


> It is not recommended to use microfibre cloths to clean leather as these will begin to remove the finish if it is at all weak.


So what cloth would you use?!?!

I would have thought a 'normal' cloth would be harder on the leather, so use a nice soft MF cloth... 

:thumb:


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## judyb (Sep 7, 2007)

MF cloths have a 'grab' - you can feel this on your hands. This can really pull quite a lot at the finish. You should use a lint free cloths for applying products or maintenance cleaners and sponges/brushes with cleaning foams. We ususally use paper towels for removing dirty foam from the leather as these are very absorbent.

Hope this helps
Judyb


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## Blueberry (Aug 10, 2007)

I've used this from day one on our 2 cars, both custom made leather interiors and they still look brand new. Seats cleaned regularly and protected quarterly and leaves a lovely subtle leather smell:thumb:

http://www.furnitureclinic.co.uk/Leather_Care_Kit.htm


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## MA09 (Mar 28, 2011)

RuFfBoY said:


> I'd let it bed in for a couple of weeks, let it stretch and get a little more supple naturally, then keep on top of it with Gliptone Liquid Leather Conditioner or something like, to keep it supple and protect against any future cracking... Any future stains or spills I usually use a very well diluted apc....


im after the matt look, dont really want the 'old back-to-black' effect..will this do the trick ? or use the wipes as mentioned ?


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## judyb (Sep 7, 2007)

'Conditioiners' are likely to build up on the surface and form a sheen which together with abrassion will alter the look of the leather over time. These products do not protect your leather in any way. 
Correct protectors and cleaners should not alter the way your leather looks or feels.

If you would like to speak to a leather care specialist please do not hesitate to contact us.

Hope this helps
Judyb


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## TOGWT (Oct 26, 2005)

judyb said:


> It is not recommended to use microfibre cloths to clean leather as these will begin to remove the finish if it is at all weak.


Micro fibre came about by combining two DuPont inventions: a hydrophobic Polyester (_a scrubbing fibre_) and a hydrophilic Polyamide (_an absorbing fibre_) this nylon hybrid is created during weaving to create microscopic loops, which form _a network of tiny hooks_, scrubbing away dirt and grime. The nature of this yarn is that it is an absorbent; the reason polyester appears to absorb liquids is the many thousands of micro fibres that collectively encapsulate liquids.


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## Dr Leather (Sep 8, 2010)

We have actually completed some testing through the Martindale tester on abrasion (note spelling JudyB) of modern automotive leathers where the usual mullen type cloth on the tester is replaced with a few different microfibre cloths and a standard 'flat' type clean cloth. Results really didn't show much difference compared to the usual standard cloths in honesty until we increased the loading pressure dramatically. So I actually think microfibre cloths are ok so long as you don't try to scrub hard with them.

What is clear to us at Dr Leather Ltd is that microfibre cloths are useful in that they can pickup the released soil/dirt from the surface of the leather after cleaning which is critical. Hence why we actually DO utilise a microfibre type wipe in our Dr Leather Leatherwipes product to assist in capturing the released soil/dirt after our cleaning solution impregnated in the wipes does it's job.

This is our opinion and also confirmed by a number of automotive leather tanners around the world.

Cheers,

Dr Leather


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## judyb (Sep 7, 2007)

This is all very well when testeing on new leather as the Martindale test does. All our work and testing is done on leather that has been subjected to wear and abrasion (so sorry that my spelling upsets you) and we have found in the cleaning industry that microfibre cloths do cause problems with leather finishes - as trainers to the industry we always teach best practice and as the amount of wear is an unknown quantity in most cases we recommend that they are not used.

Hope this helps
Judyb


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## Dr Leather (Sep 8, 2010)

JudyB - your spelling doesn't upset me, but I do like to see things done right. But no need to thank me (obviously!!!) :wall:

As for my testing, well I think the main aspect that I highlighted upon was 'pressure'. If you just glide the microfibre over the surface of a well maintained leather there is unlikely to be any issue. Consumers may have other feedback. 

But I do agree that microabrasives are definitely a no no.

Rgds,

Dr Leather


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## The Cueball (Feb 8, 2007)

I wish you two would just get a room... 





:lol:

:thumb:


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## Deeper Detail (Oct 31, 2010)

For MA09...

Gliptone Liquid Leather Conditioner is a pH neutral, non-greasy, non-oily conditioning cream, which soaks into leather within seconds, softening and restoring its suppleness. Suitable for all sealed and semi-aniline leathers, this respected conditioner is the perfect treatment to follow Liquid Leather Gentle or Intensive Cleaners. For convertible interiors and other leather items which are exposed to the elements, use Gliptone Liquid Leather Conditioner & Waterproofer, which contains water, oil and dirt repellents.
Leather is only skin and must be treated in much the same way as your own skin - dirt and sunlight are the enemies. When mechanics get dirt ingrained in their fingers it eventually cracks them, and the same happens to leather - dirt must not be allowed to get deep into the creases and pores of leather. Human perspiration in particular attacks leather, so regular cleaning of your leather trimmed steering wheel is a must.
Any product that promises to clean and condition in one cannot do either job properly. To condition it must soak in immediately, therefore it must take the dirt in with it. Any conditioner that needs leaving for a long time and then polishing off cannot soak in completely, therefore it leaves a sticky residue, to which dust and dirt will cling.


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## Razzzle (Jul 3, 2010)

In the RED Corner: LTT JudyB
In the BLUE Corner: Dr Leather Darryl

:lol:


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## Guest (Apr 5, 2011)

OK.....

So we are (kinda) agreed that leather needs cleaning, personally I use Dr. Leather wipes because they are quick and easy as well as smelling nice. 
Now, the leather in my car is only a few years old and I have always been led to belive that it is coated with a clear coat of some description?? So no mater what 'conditoner' I use its NEVER going to reach the actual leather ?? 

What would both you upstanding leather experts suggest as to PROTECTING the outer finish ?


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## judyb (Sep 7, 2007)

Auto Ultra Protect the most effective protector on the market and does not alter the look or feel of the leather.


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## dooka (Aug 1, 2006)

I use a product from Zirconite to protect leather, and it works a treat, leaving the leather looking natural and well protected..

Once a week I hoover and wipe down gently with a warm damp soft cloth [Swissvax Flannel], and then once every month or two I clean with a watered down Gliptone cleaner..


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## david_h (Sep 19, 2006)

I've actually given up taking on board any of the leather care advice given on this forum.

To me it just seems like every sponsor is pushing their own product and then tries to spout the science to fit their needs.

I'm testing Leatherique from the states next month, I'll post up my before/after. I have the bottles all ready to go, just not had the time.

All this about protection etc is garbage imho. You really think some liquid product is going to provide any protection against a 12 stone human sliding around on the surface? At the margin it might help, but overall, it's not going to do much.

Also, all this about leather not being absorbant may be applicable to brand new leather. But after 3-6months of use the surface will be broken and then it's a different story.


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## Xabby (Feb 28, 2010)

After two years of use, the leather upholstery of my car is new only cleaning.


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## TOGWT (Oct 26, 2005)

david_h said:


> I've actually given up taking on board any of the leather care advice given on this forum.
> 
> To me it just seems like every sponsor is pushing their own product and then tries to spout the science to fit their needs.
> 
> ...


With detailing advice you should always consider its source as commercialism brings with it concerns of honesty and true representation. In other words, it's difficult to know what is true when someone is motivated by income, i.e. directly targeted at product sales, more so than an unbiased opinion. Marketing has little if anything to do with the truth or what was really in the products

CliffNotes® Version - automotive finished leather upholstery is a multi-strata urethane coating; consisting of the actual hide, aqueous (water- based) colour pigmentation and the surface finish. An acrylic and polyurethane resin binder system is used to improve flexibility, fastness and adhesion to the leather, then two or three aqueous (water- based) pigmented base coat applications, and then a clear aqueous (water- based) top coat is applied, which usually includes additives to give it a soft feel and a limited amount of 'slide' to assist in entering and exiting the vehicle as the final stage of the finishing process.

*(a) Clean -* as dirt / grit and subsequent friction cause the finish to wear. Use a aqueous (water- based) foam cleaner (Leather Master™ Foam Cleaner) on ventilated seats

*(b) Hydrated -* use aqueous (water- based) products that do not contain oils and/or waxes, check the label if they do then don't use them. Clean surfaces with a damp towel.
*
(c) Protected -* is essential as it will protect the surface finish (Leather Master™ - Protection Cream) as a sacrificial layer and makes dirt easier to clean off and an ultra violet protective product (UVR) will preserve the finish. 
Leather Master™ - Protection Cream (a Scotchgard™ type product specifically formulated for lather) the polymers penetrate the surface of finished leather and cross-link to form a durable protective film that is breathable and keeps the leather supple.

Being aqueous (water- based) it restores moisture to finished leather and provides a protective barrier against every kind of soiling, water, oil, alcohol-based stains and perspiration marks.

This is NOT a conditioner per se but is used to improve and maintain the tactile feel and lustre to ensure the leather remains soft and supple; apply Leather Master™ Soft Touch (ex Soft Vital) and allow to dry for approx 20 minutes, finally using a clean dry micro fibre towel buff to a matte sheen.

The hides used for automobile upholstery are treated with fat liquor and then sealed at the tannery. The only 'conditioning' required for finished leather upholstery is hydration; oil-based products cannot permeate the finish (urethane pigmentation or covering) that is used in 95% plus of modern automobiles

*Always remember you are dealing with the finished coating on the leather and not with the leather hide itself *

*Leatherequi*

The idea of applying the conditioner, allowing time for it to work in a heated environment, before it can be cleaned off which is then rewarded by the rather odd fact that you have to then clean the leather in a secondary stage is really rather odd, and is reminiscent of the Saddle Soap process, before it can begin to clean it must first dissolve its own oils, which limits its capacity to dissolve dirt and oils in the leather, and I can see no technical reason for applying a product in this way.

But if you feel $50 and approx 4 hours work is a worthwhile investment of time / money to clean finished leather with a thin urethane pigmented covering, that's your choice. (See also Oil and oil-based Products)


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## david_h (Sep 19, 2006)

TOGWT said:


> With detailing advice you should always consider its source as commercialism brings with it concerns of honesty and true representation. In other words, it's difficult to know what is true when someone is motivated by income, i.e. directly targeted at product sales, more so than an unbiased opinion. Marketing has little if anything to do with the truth or what was really in the products
> 
> CliffNotes® Version - automotive finished leather upholstery is a multi-strata urethane coating; consisting of the actual hide, aqueous (water- based) colour pigmentation and the surface finish. An acrylic and polyurethane resin binder system is used to improve flexibility, fastness and adhesion to the leather, then two or three aqueous (water- based) pigmented base coat applications, and then a clear aqueous (water- based) top coat is applied, which usually includes additives to give it a soft feel and a limited amount of 'slide' to assist in entering and exiting the vehicle as the final stage of the finishing process.
> 
> ...


you clearly didn't read what I said in my original post. After 60,000 miles the original top coat finish will be damaged, hence your argument about protectors etc is not longer valid. On the seat facings at least it will be a question of dealing with the raw leather and coloured dye which is why old skool style products that rejuivenate the leather are probably going to give a better finish.

Until I recently purchased leatherique I stopped buying leather cleaners. Instead diluted APC does the same job for a tenth the price.


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## judyb (Sep 7, 2007)

Protectors are designed to protect the top coating from becoming damaged by dirt etc. and therefore prolong the life of these coatings which in turn protect the leather itself. This process should be started when the leather is new for the best effect.

Once the top coat finish has been damaged it needs replacing to once again protect the leather. Adding 'conditioners', oils, waxes etc. will not help. If you start filling the leather with oils etc this will compromise the ability to replace the surface coatings as there could be adhesion problems. The oils in the leather itself do not need replacing only the moisture.

Hope this helps
Judyb


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## TOGWT (Oct 26, 2005)

Also, all this about leather not being absorbant may be applicable to brand new leather. But after 3-6months of use the surface will be broken and then it's a different story.

What make of vehicle do you own that the upholstery has a duability is 3-6 months?


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## david_h (Sep 19, 2006)

judyb said:


> Protectors are designed to protect the top coating from becoming damaged by dirt etc. and therefore prolong the life of these coatings which in turn protect the leather itself. This process should be started when the leather is new for the best effect.
> 
> Once the top coat finish has been damaged it needs replacing to once again protect the leather. Adding 'conditioners', oils, waxes etc. will not help. If you start filling the leather with oils etc this will compromise the ability to replace the surface coatings as there could be adhesion problems. The oils in the leather itself do not need replacing only the moisture.
> 
> ...


So you're saying that as soon as the top coat on leather wears out then we all need to retrim our interiors, just so we can continue using your protection product.

Ridiculous!

Not all of us can afford a brand new car, or a retrimed leather interior.


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## judyb (Sep 7, 2007)

> Once the top coat finish has been damaged it needs replacing to once again protect the leather


I think you may have misunderstood this. Once the topcoat has been damaged it can be repalced with new finish and pigment not new leather - this can then be protected against dirt in the same way as new leather.

You do not need to retrim - the leather can be refinished but once it has broken down this is the only way of restoring the finish. Cleaners and 'conditioners' will not help.

The idea is to look after the leather correctly so that you do not need to refinish or let it get to the stage where you need to retrim.


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## Xabby (Feb 28, 2010)

judyb said:


> Not at all - you do not need to retrim - the leather can be refinished but once it has broken down this is the only way of restoring the finish. Cleaners and 'conditioners' will not help.


Could you help me to understand how the leather can be refinished?. It´s very interesting what are you saying.

Many thanks in advance!

Xabby


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## judyb (Sep 7, 2007)

Pigment (colour) and top coat finishes can be replaced.


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## Dr Leather (Sep 8, 2010)

But it has to be noted that the top coats are quite similar to the PU and acrylic basecoats that contain the majority (possibly all) of the pigment. So they are pretty tough by themselves. We do not just make a topcoat as the only line of defence. And it does take some abuse and hard life to wear through the top coat, but the basecoat is also tough. see what I mean??? Again the best thing is to try to look after the top coat system. In fact nowadays the tanners are increasing the top coat loadings and we are enhancing with ceramic particulates, etc. Funny enough I use to own the patent on that one :thumb:

The issue with refinishing is getting correct adhesion of the new topcoat to the basecoat polymers. all are heavily crosslinked, and would need some assistance to bite into the basecoat after full crosslinking has occurred - which is about 2-3 months after the leather has been sprayed in the tannery. Otherwise it'll just come off and wear away pretty easy if it is not anchored correctly. Truthfully on high performance leathers we have never seen real good top coat reapplication unless solvents are use to cut in to the basecoat. And that brings with it other issues. 

Anyway just some experience from decades of making this leather.

Rgds,

Dr Leather


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## Spirit Detailing (Mar 29, 2007)

I usually just clean and protect. Personally, I have got an acrylic latex sealant on my own car leather and it lasted well over 14 months (so far:thumb. It only needs a wipe with a damp cloth and a hint of APC to clean it. (its one of those "warranty" style products from a bulk manufacturer in the US). 

All I can say is, the only damage that my leather has suffered is a spot of wear from my leather belt on the upright cushion. From what I can see, all of the protectors will only protect your leather from dirt. Wear and tear is unavoidable, unless you don't actually drive your car. When the wear starts to appear, the wrong thing to do is start rubbing conditioner into it. That will only break the binders in the top-coat even further and exasperate the wear even further. 

What I have seen in the past 12 years of detailing is that some of my client's cars have terrific leather in spite of using conditioners while others have terrible leather - in spite of using conditioners. There are just too many variables for you to consider which you will not have the answer to, so I gave up getting stressed about leather and just treat it as I see best. 

For instance, was it a good batch of leather. Did the topcoating have the right combination of binders and crosslinkers in the urethane. Was the leather chrome-tanned or vegetable tanned or aldehyde tanned? (Chrome tanning is less frequent these days due to chemical laws and possible allergy problems, but it is so soft and supple that I love it!). Is there a diminishing of fatliquor or is the leather actually that hard from the tanning process? Should you be making it softer DIY just because you can? Are you affecting the mould-inhibitors? Could your conditioners contribute to, or deter, leather rot in YOUR particular seats? I could go on....

How the hell are you supposed to know stuff like that if you are not a professional detailer (like me) So forget about using conditioners, regardless of whether the leather is new or old, solvent-based or water-based top-coat. Leather is dynamic and it conditions itself from the moisture in the air. It doesn't lose "oils" and you can't replace them with "conditioners" if there was a surface condition problem.

Or just use conditioner if you want to. It boils down to what you want and like yourself. But now you have another perspective...:thumb:


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## Dr Leather (Sep 8, 2010)

Just to reply to Brian, actually Chrome is still the main tanning agent used by automotive companies. German cars pushed for chrome free systems mostly because all the aldehyde tanning agents are....yep you guessed it.... made by BASF, Lanxess, etc (the German chemical companies). But the issue is that aldehyde tanned leather has poor reactivity to other anionic products in the retanning stage, and so things like dye exhaustions, etc were poor and overall it was less efficient. Not to mention aldehyde leathers have a lower thermal stability to chrome tanned.

But I think we should also mention that chrome tanning is probably still accounting for 80-90% of all leathers (footwear, upholstery, clothing, gloving, etc). Do not get caught up in the mistake that chromium 6+ (hexavalent) is the toxic form of chrome used in electroplating, etc. In tanning we use the trivalent 3+ form which is safe - infact you need chromium 3+ in your diet and many supplements out there based on chromium piccolate are for sale to enhance your metabolism.

Just thought I needed to explain that to clarify what is incorrect on the previous post to chemical regulations.

If you want to read more about the leathers then go here:

http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?p=2649636#post2649636

Rgds,

Dr Leather


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## Spirit Detailing (Mar 29, 2007)

Thanks Darryl. I don't attend the DW forums that much anymore so I missed that post. Its good. Very tech for some folks but I appreciate the points you made. 

Volvo for sure don't use chrome-tanned leather in their cars. Now, I thought that Wollsdorf didn't either and they supply most of the German marques (which answers JB052's question in that thread about the 993). I thought BOW were veg-tanning as well, but I haven't been in touch with them for two or three years so you might know better than I. 

Darryl, its refreshing to get good information. I know you have a product to sell but you know your stuff as well. I don't know how I accumulated so much information about leather as I am just a Detailer... but I figure it pays to know as much as possible about the surfaces you work on.

I will drop you a line. Interested in getting a few of your wipes to try out now that I have seen your section and read your background. :thumb: Maybe you can also let me know who is doing what in the auto-leather manufacturing sector. You familiar with Shishoo in Sweden, btw? Would like to read his book if you happened to have it and wanted to lend it out!! Its too expensive for me to buy!!!


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## Guest (Apr 7, 2011)

What would you suggest as to protecting the coating Darryl ??


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## Dr Leather (Sep 8, 2010)

BrianS said:


> Volvo for sure don't use chrome-tanned leather in their cars. Now, I thought that Wollsdorf didn't either and they supply most of the German marques (which answers JB052's question in that thread about the 993). I thought BOW were veg-tanning as well, but I haven't been in touch with them for two or three years so you might know better than I.


Thanks for a great response. BoW are doing chrome free for Volvo as far as I know, but it isn't veg tanned. The chrome free systems are generally modified glutaraldehyde and syntan combination resins. You'll find that the specifications from a lot of automotive makers are sadly driven ultimately by price.

So yes please get in touch - would be good to chat with you.

Cheers,

Darryl


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## Dr Leather (Sep 8, 2010)

JasonE said:


> What would you suggest as to protecting the coating Darryl ??


Truthfully I still maintain my stance that regular cleaing of the leather is the best option. Once again I will go on to say that these protectant products as they are known cannot be successfully applied with longevity as the application conditions for adhesion and activation are quite specific. Plus most are FC based, and FC compounds do not offer good penetration pressure resistance. Lots of pretty marketing pictures will be shown, many are not even of automotive leather, but I know very well after 2 decades of playing with these products that they have a very short working life in post-application situations.

Rgds,

Dr Leather


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## Mirror Finish Details (Aug 21, 2008)

Nobody has touched upon quality of leather.

In my years detailing i have found mainstream leather to be pretty poor quality stuff, Vauxhall, Citroen and Renault (seen Renault bolsters worn after a few months, much like their cars though pretty poor) seem to be the worst. Ford is middle of the road.

BMW, Merc, Jag, Land Rover, VAG Group, Volvo etc all seem to use a better leather.

Then I did a bentley the other week, 03 plate 160,000 miles on the clock and looking at the leather it looked as if was hardly used.

Me thinks the quality of leather in the first place makes a difference?????

I do like the Dr Leather wipes, I have left some for customers who seem very happy with them.


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## Spirit Detailing (Mar 29, 2007)

Mirror Finish said:


> Nobody has touched upon quality of leather.
> 
> In my years detailing i have found mainstream leather to be pretty poor quality stuff, Vauxhall, Citroen and Renault (seen Renault bolsters worn after a few months, much like their cars though pretty poor) seem to be the worst. Ford is middle of the road.
> 
> ...


Yep, but its very hard when you have unblemished leather to determine whether it is poor quality or not. Some are hard, some are soft. It doesn't automatically mean poor or high quality to the lay-person.

Price of the car is not always a factor either. I've seen fairly new Ferrari's with worn leather. It could be due to the difference in "squeeze" that people have to do when they clamber in and out. Loads of room to get out of a Bentley. I have a client with 570 and trust me, he is neither young nor slim!! Needs a winch to get in and out!! 

BMW depends on the model & plant they come from. Sadly they are now very cost-conscious as you would witness with the massive orange-peel problem that they don't seem to give a damn about on the paint. For cars that price, there are some things that consumers accept and sacrifice for the sake of the other benefits of the brand. I wouldn't accept it but c'est la vie!


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