# Wax costs too much imo



## chillly

FELLAS I DONT KNOW ABOUT YOU LOT BUT I WANT TO BRING DOWN THE COST OF WAX TO AN EXCEPTABLE LEVEL.

Imo wax which is over £50 is not only extortionate but only feel good marteting hype. so what about it should we DO ABOUT IT as a collective? should we carry on from what dodo has started and stated?? its up to you?? 

Traders and manufactures are the only ones who are going to jump on this post so its up to the humble DW members to sort this out. Your opinions are welcome along with your comments. If your not sure about this have a read of DAVEKGS POSTS and comments. The reason i mentioned Dave is he has alot of respect in the DW community. Of corse there are many others but the list would be to long. Dave hope you dont mind me mentioning your name and posts but you have said many times what i have found out as a nooob. And i thank you for that.

Remember guys its the humble member who pays for the big profits.. cheers chillly a humble honest member of DW


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## robj20

Seems pointless. If your not happy paying £50+ dont, its very simple. Plenty of very good waxes around the £15 mark.


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## MerlinGTI

> what should we DO ABOUT IT as a collective?


Not buy it 

Plenty of excellent waxes about for under £40, that preform as well as those costing 10x that amount.

Its just ******* wax at the end of the day, :thumb: people that spend £10k need their heads testing imo, but each to their own I suppose


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## Dipesh

robj20 said:


> Seems pointless. If your not happy paying £50+ dont, its very simple. Plenty of very good waxes around the £15 mark.


Exactly. If you want to pay extra for someone elses blend, paying £50-£7000 is up to you!

It's just the way it is I'm affraid.


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## westerman

I bought both Collinite 476 and 915 for around £13 a tin and they are superb waxes. Anyone wanting to spend more, it's up to them. Good waxes can be had at quite reasonable prices.


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## remal

Most i've spent is £30 on some Dodo wax. Would I pay more yes, Would I pay over £80-100 then no. :buffer:

If you can afford it and want to then go ahead. I won't and found the £30 wax to be great stuff :thumb:

No one is forced to pay large amount of money on Wax.


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## Edward101

If you have the money then u'll pay, its the same with anything, such as designer clothes etc.
Also I think if its your hobby then you tend to spend 'more' on things :thumb:


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## chillly

Thought this was great from tim from ENVY ABOUT MEGS 16. Its good stuff and I have it on VERY good authority they used to make it for a well known American manufacturer beginning with Z who sold it as something else from the Z family 
__________________


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## MerlinGTI

chillly said:


> Thought this was great from tim from ENVY ABOUT MEGS 16. Its good stuff and I have it on VERY good authority they used to make it for a well known American manufacturer beginning with Z who sold it as something else from the Z family
> __________________


I loved that from the #16 thread too. Proves my point really


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## -Kev-

as we all know, the results come from the prep work before any LSP gets near the paintwork, so the users time and money is better spent here imo. expensive waxes are stacked with marketing, making them out to be micracle products that make the paint shine like nothing else. that said, the main reason people pay more for a wax (dodo SN, swissvax etc etc) is because, perhaps they are nicer to use than, for example a collinite wax (technically a sealant anyway), because the expensive wax might smell nicer and/or be easier to apply and remove - these being the primary reason for me thinking about a zymol wax recently. changed my mind though - ive got the autobrite addiction wax and FK #2685 on the way, so thats enough for me (and about half a dozen liquid sealants). as said, if someone wants to spend say £50 + on a wax then its up to them, provided they get the prep spot on and don't believe it to be a miracle product that outshines everything else on the market. as with just about every product sold by the DW traders, its down to personal preference - one person loves this product but someone else might hate it - simples really 

kev


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## jamest

Don't buy it. Shall we all do something about Aston Martin charging over £100,000 for their cars while we are at it.


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## -tom-

each to there own i have sn coletine other dodo waxs, megs. i have had swissvax but as said its down to the prep work you put in.


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## chillly

jamest said:


> Don't buy it. Shall we all do something about Aston Martin charging over £100,000 for their cars while we are at it.


WHY NOT AND YOUR RIGHT. Thats another level the rich will always be rich. Great idea thou:thumb: The average cost of a tub of wax costs between £5 and £10 depending on maufacturing and volume of sales. Dont trust me do some of your own homework. i have its an eye opener:thumb:


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## chillly

Wheres james b when you need him?


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## Auto Finesse

^^ 5-10 quid a pot, not by the time you have manufactured it, packaged it, promoted it, shipped it to a stockiest, they have put there bit on top and then shipped it to you. 

Every one has to make money, time effort and raw product along with every thing else costs money, as dose just surviving in this country as a business, why do you think these companies make wax? for fun? no to make money, if you dont like what they charge, dont buy that brand, its really not a difficult position to be in.

Its not like council tax or anything, no ones bending your arm behind your back.

I have a huge range of waxes and sealants, from 10 quid to a couple of grand, if it was for jut my own car, i doubt id use anything over the 100 pound mark if im honest, Super Natural or Swissvax BoS would be me, my clients need and want choice and variety, the higher end waxes do have an edge, like getting that wax glow and the duribility together but would i pay the extra £££ per pot for the very slight edge, probubly not if it was just for my own car or two, but i dont roll around in a 911rs and live in a couple a mill house (i wish i did tho ) if i had that kind of doe id buy it just to have it, but 500+ to me personally (ie out of my own pocket) id have other things id rather than a pot of wax for that doe right now.


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## Aero

Well said James :thumb:


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## alan_mcc

chillly said:


> WHY NOT AND YOUR RIGHT. Thats another level the rich will always be rich. Great idea thou:thumb: The average cost of a tub of wax costs between £5 and £10 depending on maufacturing and volume of sales. Dont trust me do some of your own homework. i have its an eye opener:thumb:


Fancy posting up some of this 'homework' on terms of cost of -

Production
Materials
Shipping
Promotion

etc etc


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## Eddy

Yes it is too expensive, but people will still buy it and manufacturers will still charge whatever they want.

Does a fancy watch that costs £100 do more than one that costs a tenner? there are infinate examples of things that cost too much because there will always be a market for people that want to spend more.


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## chillly

Bump more honest opinions guys its an open debate


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## lpoolck

I bought Harleys wax for around £17 and more than happy with it, applied two layers 4 months ago and still beading good! And its a huge tin that will last for ages, so I personally was happy with this price.


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## alan_mcc

chillly said:


> Bump more honest opinions guys its an open debate


Give me your research?


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## ayrshireteggy

chillly said:


> FELLAS I DONT KNOW ABOUT YOU LOT BUT I WANT TO BRING DOWN THE COST OF WAX TO AN EXCEPTABLE LEVEL.
> 
> Imo wax which is over £50 is not only extortionate but only feel good marteting hype. so what about it should we DO ABOUT IT as a collective? should we carry on from what dodo has started and stated?? its up to you??
> 
> Traders and manufactures are the only ones who are going to jump on this post so its up to the humble DW members to sort this out. Your opinions are welcome along with your comments. If your not sure about this have a read of DAVEKGS POSTS and comments. The reason i mentioned Dave is he has alot of respect in the DW community. Of corse there are many others but the list would be to long. Dave hope you dont mind me mentioning your name and posts but you have said many times what i have found out as a nooob. And i thank you for that.
> 
> Remember guys its the humble member who pays for the big profits.. cheers chillly a humble honest member of DW


UP THE REVOLUTION!

Have you been getting wired into the sherry trifle, Chilllllly?


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## AliBailey88

petes 53 paste wax £22 end of


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## robj20

I would argue that Poorboys Nattys at around £12 has got to be hard to beat.


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## alan_mcc

chillly said:


> WHY NOT AND YOUR RIGHT. Thats another level the rich will always be rich. Great idea thou:thumb: The average cost of a tub of wax costs between £5 and £10 depending on maufacturing and volume of sales. Dont trust me do some of your own homework. i have its an eye opener:thumb:


you say the average tub of a wax, give me an example?

I don't see how your 'research' is valid at all, you say the average tub of wax, well then why are complaining over the likes of Swissvax or Zymol waxes 

i don't consider BOS or Crystal Rock to be an average wax.


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## Leodhasach

AliBailey88 said:


> petes 53 paste wax £22 end of


If only it were that simple :lol:

Everyone has their own preferences and experiences all differ.


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## Divine

robj20 said:


> I would argue that Poorboys Nattys at around £12 has got to be hard to beat.


Yep, Nattys Paste, and Natty Blue at under £15 including p&p is hard to beat tbh


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## chillly

Megs 16 colly 476 all approx £12 ^^^ nattys blue


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## alan_mcc

chillly you gonna give me a response?


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## ksm1985

if i had a black car id maybe pay a bit more than i did for my #16 but on a silver car i dont think id notice the difference between tesco wax and an expensive one


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## Auto Finesse

Its gona be like every other thread on here, if it dont go the right way with 100 pat on the backs you get ignored, 

I tell you what why dont the we have the opinions from those qualified to do so, by that i mean people who have actually tried some waxes from £10.00 - £7000.00 then see where it goes.


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## Puntoboy

I think I paid about £9 for a sample of FK100p. Will last me ages and it was voted product of the year by this very site.


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## catch the pigeo

chillly said:


> WHY NOT AND YOUR RIGHT. Thats another level the rich will always be rich. Great idea thou:thumb: The average cost of a tub of wax costs between £5 and £10 depending on maufacturing and volume of sales. Dont trust me do some of your own homework. i have its an eye opener:thumb:


Iam lazy can you show me some of your research?


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## toni

Wax is like every other thing in life. If you only want protection, get a highly durable wax that comes cheap (10-15 pounds or less) and will last you a couple of years at least.
If you're after looks, polishing, detailing ... you're in for another hobby  and as with most other hobbies it's an expensive one.

It's not only about wax... I'm really liking the EZ-Brush right now, but 20 pounds for a damn wheel brush is A LOT!!!  Nonetheless, I know I'm gonna get one soon  Why? Because I enjoy it...


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## chillly

Thats a good idea james any members on here tried some waxes on here above the £1k mark like me and james and seen any differance. As i know the DODO guys have stated they have not!!. Nice one james:thumb: Come on guys opinions its an open debate. Keep it rollin

I hope PJ&DOM Join in as they know how much the average cost of wax is. Per tub. But will they say it. I believe they will:thumb:


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## alan_mcc

chillly why won't you respond?


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## alan_mcc

chillly said:


> I hope PJ&DOM Join in as they know how much the average cost of wax is. Per tub. But will they say it. I believe they will:thumb:


but so do you, apparently


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## Divine

chillly said:


> I hope PJ&DOM Join in as they know how much the average cost of wax is. Per tub. But will they say it. I believe they will:thumb:


Your obviously trying to lure us into thinking a pot of wax selling at £100, only costs them £5 to make

So what?

Thats life, its a company selling it

Lets just talk about something we all know of, forgetting start up costs, for someone to detail your car, say full paint correction we can be talking, lets just say £300

So, £300....Technically, I rekon I use about £15 worth of actual products during p/c, so people are making a killing - Forgetting about the labour costs and time etc

Like I said, its life, thats how companies make money, make low, sell high..


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## MidlandsCarCare

I've used most waxes and sealants from £10, right up to Zymol's Vintage at c.£2000.

Now, what I can firmly say is that Vintage isn't '200x' better than Natty's Blue, but what Vintage (for example) does manage to do, which Nattys doesn't, is feel special - it's an experience, not just part of a chore. Now if this, like me, is considered to be a hobby, then you will naturally have a fascination in the higher end products, and will possibly strive towards owning some of them.

Clearly these products can be deemed poor value for money, but that really isn't the point is it? You enjoy pampering your car, you enjoy your hobby, so you may well want to treat yourself to something 'special'. As functional as Collinite is, it simply isn't 'special'. At all.

The other factor here, which grinds me a little if I'm honest, is that people say "it doesn't matter what you use, it's all in the prep". Now, whilst this can be largely true for a car machine polished to perfection, how many of us can say we have this? Also, most of the people that say this don't seem to have any real experience with the higher end products - so it's an 'opinion' formed from what they have read on here; regurgitating quotes and threads from here is not the same as experience.

My point is there will always be a market for this type of product, as with anything you can buy - there will always be a boutique/premium product/range available. I could understand the point of this thread if there were no good value waxes, or prices were rising, but as products like Finish Kare 1000P remind us, there's plenty of value out there to be had.

The final consideration is... how many people not charging people to use premium products, have them in their own collection? If you were charging £100 per layer of Vintage (or selling some of your 22oz for a tidy profit!) would you have any? How many people on here have £1100 Atlantique.......?


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## alan_mcc

^ I agree. So basically chillly, you want the companies to make 0 turnover/profit a year? 
TBH I don't think there'd be any wax at all if there was no profit.


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## chillly

RussZS said:


> I've used most waxes and sealants from £10, right up to Zymol's Vintage at c.£2000.
> 
> Now, what I can firmly say is that Vintage isn't '200x' better than Natty's Blue, but what Vintage (for example) does manage to do, which Nattys doesn't, is feel special - it's an experience, not just part of a chore. Now if this, like me, is considered to be a hobby, then you will naturally have a fascination in the higher end products, and will possibly strive towards owning some of them.
> 
> Clearly these products can be deemed poor value for money, but that really isn't the point is it? You enjoy pampering your car, you enjoy your hobby, so you may well want to treat yourself to something 'special'. As functional as Collinite is, it simply isn't 'special'. At all.
> 
> The other factor here, which grinds me a little if I'm honest, is that people say "it doesn't matter what you use, it's all in the prep". Now, whilst this can be largely true for a car machine polished to perfection, how many of us can say we have this? Also, most of the people that say this don't seem to have any real experience with the higher end products - so it's an 'opinion' formed from what they have read on here; regurgitating quotes and threads from here is not the same as experience.
> 
> My point is there will always be a market for this type of product, as with anything you can buy - there will always be a boutique/premium product/range available. I could understand the point of this thread if there were no good value waxes, or prices were rising, but as products like Finish Kare 1000P remind us, there's plenty of value out there to be had.
> 
> The final consideration is... how many people not charging people to use premium products, have them in their own collection? If you were charging £100 per layer of Vintage (or selling some of your 22oz for a tidy profit!) would you have any? How many people on here have £1100 Atlantique.......?


Good points there mate, i wonder how many people would have £1100 Atlantique. If it was £110. Just for example. Nice one mate:thumb:


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## justina3

I have no problem with anyone making money or extra money as long as there are decent products in my price bracket and I am not forced into into paying for these expensive products then it doesnt bother me. 

good on the companies i say even more so if they are from the uk, we need all the extra taxes into the goverments coppers tin as we can get at the moment.

now when the fuel crisis hit and petrol strikes where going on then I stood up and was happy to be counted that was a worth while cause as I was being forced into paying these prices where as with the newly founded wax war I am not.


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## Divine

chillly said:


> Good points there mate, i wonder how many people would have £1100 Atlantique. If it was £110. Just for example. Nice one mate:thumb:


I dont get what your getting at

Obviously, someone who cant afford to spend £1100, is far more likely to spend £110.....Its not some sort of discrete knowledge worthy of '  ' as if there is something to be found out here

Same with people who would be happier spending £15 on Nattys, rather than say BOS at £100 (ish?)

Yes in an ideal world, everything would be cheaper, so everyone could get it...But its not, the world wouldnt work without businesses hyping their products and getting customers ...


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## Stew

That's a good post RussZs.

I agree about the 'special' thing. I'm not a wax wh*re (said that twice today) but when I bought SN I HAD to have the wooden pot. Why? Because it was more special and it makes using it all the sweeter. Does it make it better? No, absolutely not. Do I love it? Yes!

Driving the cost down is all very well but premium bands inflate their prices as they have a reputation to trade on and it keeps it 'exclusive' meaning 'normal' people will save for it and rich people will buy it just to have it. 

Value brands are just that, good value. If it works and doesn't cost the earth then it's a winner. If it's cheap (or expensive) but isn't good then you've wasted your money....

There are plenty of great value products about but some people just want to have that fancy wax.


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## Puntoboy

Something is only worth what people are willing to pay for it. If people want to spend hundreds on a wax then it's worth that amount of money IMO.


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## chillly

t33job said:


> I dont get what your getting at
> 
> Obviously, someone who cant afford to spend £1100, is far more likely to spend £110.....Its not some sort of discrete knowledge worthy of '  ' as if there is something to be found out here
> 
> Same with people who would be happier spending £15 on Nattys, rather than say BOS at £100 (ish?)
> 
> Yes in an ideal world, everything would be cheaper, so everyone could get it...But its not, the world wouldnt work without businesses hyping their products and getting customers ...


Good comments there. Yes i agree why should we pay ott for something because we are told to. and it will make us sleep better at night. It makes someone even richer we all know that much. As always guys opinions welcome


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## Divine

No one gets forced into purchasing products though

I for one, dont actually know the specific content of A compared to B, but the more expensive usually contains more carnauba and is made by someone more reputable

Say Natty Blue with 10%, and Swissvax BOS with 30% (BOTH TOTALLY RANDOM GUESSES)

So, Nattys therefore isnt going to be worth as much just for the content alone, but then being a lesser brand, it again is worth less than BOS

Basically, Swissvax etc arnt going to lower their prices, they will be selling 10000's of pots a year, and this thread will make no difference - If I could afford a nice pot of Divine, I would.....Forget the hype etc, I would buy it


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## chillly

Stew said:


> That's a good post RussZs.
> 
> I agree about the 'special' thing. I'm not a wax wh*re (said that twice today) but when I bought SN I HAD to have the wooden pot. Why? Because it was more special and it makes using it all the sweeter. Does it make it better? No, absolutely not. Do I love it? Yes!
> 
> Driving the cost down is all very well but premium bands inflate their prices as they have a reputation to trade on and it keeps it 'exclusive' meaning 'normal' people will save for it and rich people will buy it just to have it.
> 
> Value brands are just that, good value. If it works and doesn't cost the earth then it's a winner. If it's cheap (or expensive) but isn't good then you've wasted your money....
> 
> There are plenty of great value products about but some people just want to have that fancy wax.


Great points there mate agree with it but does it all have to cost the earth:thumb: having better things is great but why such a hike in cost for little or no differance. Again great points:thumb:


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## Divine

At the end of the day, if a company can sell the products at £500 a pot, they will

If they lower the prices a bit and get a few more customers, they will make a similar profit, but the lower the price the less 'exclusive' and 'special' the wax will become...


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## Dave KG

My opinions on expensive waxes are, it would seem, well known 

Do I feel qualified to comment - well, I base my opinions on my own experiences of what I have tried which I marry up with research which is on going (currently we have a member here who is really opening eyes to the effects of layering, and that is finstp), and my own knowledge base. All are very important, but I will not assume myself any qualification above another as that really is not my style, nor is it my style to request it 

Having used waxes from the very "bottom rung" right up to the big league Zymols (Vintage and Royale), I personally cannot abide to expensive waxes delivering more in the finish. To me, in terms of looks, if you get the prep right, it simply does not happen... yet so many waxes claim to offer the best this, the best that and to be honest, its just pure marketing. Many claim to see the warmth of the carnuaba, the high reflections of a sealant, but I am yet to see any tenable proof of large effects either way... beyond what the glaze oils in products may deliver to less the perfectly prepared paint. 

Read the wax test, which was one simple test extending what many had already done in side by side tests... Now the test is not perfect by any stretch of the imagination, but it does show something very clearly - take six like prepared cars, and apply different LSPs to them, and you cannot tell the difference in the looks. What does this tell you? Does Zymol Royale (in the test) look leaps and bounds better than Collinite 915 (also in the test)? Well, I am not going to say yes or no to this - everyone here is intelligent enough to make up their own minds based on what is presented to them, and also intelligent enough to read into comments made about such tests and how viable the test is... the statistics of the test showed nothing other than complete variation which can readily be interpreted as nobody really being able to pick out a tenable winner in terms of looks. Similar side by side tests are done all the time, and the results are the same time and time again... Now I could read out all the claimed faults with these tests and again, people here are intelligent enough to read whether these are fair challenges or not, so I am not going to insult the membership intelligence with this. Simply, present the results of a test carried out here for people's own opinions.

My personal thoughts - well, I am not going to invest huge sums of money in a wax simply because it will offer me nothing teanble in terms of looks or durability based on my own testing... the most durable LSP I have tried remains Collinite 476S, with Zaino and Duragloss very close seconds... though Nanolex is yet to undergo full testing with me as the car it was on was written off! Looks, well you can decide for yourself whether or not 10 - 20 nanometer films of essentially the same base product can make huge differenes between the different waxes, over and above a simple placebo effect  

Do I think waxes are overpriced - well I think some are, and it would be rude of me to suggest which... because at the end of the day, a product is worth what someone will pay for it and at the end of the day with waxes, it seems to me that a lot of people are paying for nothing more than very clever marketing as on paper performance certainly suggests you would be better off with a sub-£20 wax! But one returns to what has been said in the past as well - does spending £200 say on a wax make you happy? If it does, who is anyone to say you cannot spend that if you want, regardless of the sense of the decision on a purely performance based level.

What I do think needs very careful analysis is a lot of the smoke and mirrors marketing that surrounds the wax industry. Giving Dom his credit here, he has tried in the past to highlight the differences in the way carnauba content is measured for example. There is a lot of clever marketing which folk should be made aware of in my opinion, and shuld be allowed to make their LSP choices based not just on manufacturer claims but also some hard and scienfically proven facts as well as honest appraisals of different product performances. This is what I would really like to see - some hard science to back up what can only be described in some cases as rather fanciful claims with respect to the enhancement a wax can deliver the looks - the deepest gloss, the sharpest reflections (which to me are two very different optical properties, which contradict each other so how can one product deliver both?! :lol.

With regards to profit, naturally some companies must make profits... but I think some of the points being made here are that some companies can offer a superior product in terms of durability which is the only tenable difference between LSPs for far less than other companies offer lesser performing products. Naturally, some companies are very big and can afford lower margins and lower prices, others will market their uniqueness and use this as justification as to the higher prices and it is entirely up to the purchaser to decide whether or not it is justified - not for me, or anyone else to say. Citing an example, #16 is very cheap for what you get - a smaller company will find it hard to compete against the might of Meguiars (3M owned IIRC), but can offer a uniqueness that some crave. You must pay more for this, so that a smaller company can survive... but then, does more really mean hundreds more?! There is a level of sense, and a level of ludicrousy in my opinion.


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## -ROM-

Sorry to be blunt but what an absolute pile of steaming crap!

There are plenty of waxes out there for under £50 that are extremely good products and perform just as well as some of the expensive ones. If you don't want to buy the boutique waxes that are more expensive then don't.

Unless you've been living in a cave then you should have noticed that every product on offer in the world will have "over-priced" premium options. Do you go in to tesco and demand that their premium whisky brands are priced to the same level as a cheap bottle of Jameson or in to a Ferrari dealership and demand they reprice all their cars to the same as a ford/vauxhall/etc???

Sorry but this deserves the award for most pointless and least thought out thread of 2009.


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## alan_mcc

rmorgan84 said:


> Sorry to be blunt but what an absolute pile of steaming crap!
> 
> There are plenty of waxes out there for under £50 that are extremely good products. If you don't want to buy the boutique waxes that are more expensive then don't.
> 
> Unless you've been living in a cave then you should have noticed that every product on offer have "over-priced" premium options. Do you go in to tesco and demand that their premium whisky brands are priced to the same level as a cheap bottle of Jameson or in to a Ferrari dealership and demand they reprice all their cars to the same as a ford/vauxhall/etc
> 
> Sorry but this deserves the award for most pointless and least thought out thread of 2009.


*claps* Wondered when you'd be along.


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## rtjc

Well said Dave, this thread is pointless in my eyes.... the logic could be put behind alomost anything for sale. I reckon the original poster should dry their eyes and use whatever they believe in  (with all due respect of course)


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## Divine

Just go buy some Turtle Wax


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## chillly

t33job said:


> No one gets forced into purchasing products though
> 
> I for one, dont actually know the specific content of A compared to B, but the more expensive usually contains more carnauba and is made by someone more reputable
> 
> Say Natty Blue with 10%, and Swissvax BOS with 30% (BOTH TOTALLY RANDOM GUESSES)
> 
> So, Nattys therefore isnt going to be worth as much just for the content alone, but then being a lesser brand, it again is worth less than BOS
> 
> Basically, Swissvax etc arnt going to lower their prices, they will be selling 10000's of pots a year, and this thread will make no difference - If I could afford a nice pot of Divine, I would.....Forget the hype etc, I would buy it


Great points. What makes someone more reputable?? Price or because someone says so? And if you had a tub of the more expensive and it gave you no better results how would you feel then? Great points again mate:thumb:

Open debate guys keep it coming:thumb:


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## Divine

Like ive said I regard Nattys Blue very good, but If I had the cash, BOS would be on my list...

Yes it costs more, so I would expect more from it, but at the end of the day I would have tried it, and could use it on customers cars....Its better to be able to offer a premium wax with a big well known brand, specially as SV head quarters are round the corner


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## Dave KG

rmorgan84 said:


> Sorry to be blunt but what an absolute pile of steaming crap!
> 
> There are plenty of waxes out there for under £50 that are extremely good products and perform just as well as some of the expensive ones. If you don't want to buy the boutique waxes that are more expensive then don't.
> 
> Unless you've been living in a cave then you should have noticed that every product on offer in the world will have "over-priced" premium options. Do you go in to tesco and demand that their premium whisky brands are priced to the same level as a cheap bottle of Jameson or in to a Ferrari dealership and demand they reprice all their cars to the same as a ford/vauxhall/etc???
> 
> Sorry but this deserves the award for most pointless and least thought out thread of 2009.


I think there are more thread in Off Topic that could easily win th award for most pointless thread :lol::lol:

What the OP has raised, to me, is a concern about the prices of wax - perhaps the price reduction is not what one should be calling for, as I said kin my post - who is anyone to tell anyone else whether they should opr should not buy something. But what the wax industry would do well to see is some clearer and more scientifically justified mrketing rather than trying to pull to wool over everyone eyes with silly marketing bumff. I think one can easily see this as an underlying tone of the OP's concerns, the variable chosen to represent it is cost which may not be the best choice, but there does need to be some changes in the industry.


----------



## chillly

Debate still open for others, its what we all think but never say. All i have done is raised an issue about the price of wax. Keep it coming fellas :thumb:


----------



## -ROM-

Dave KG said:


> I think there are more thread in Off Topic that could easily win th award for most pointless thread :lol::lol:
> 
> What the OP has raised, to me, is a concern about the prices of wax - perhaps the price reduction is not what one should be calling for, as I said kin my post - who is anyone to tell anyone else whether they should opr should not buy something. But what the wax industry would do well to see is some clearer and more scientifically justified mrketing rather than trying to pull to wool over everyone eyes with silly marketing bumff. I think one can easily see this as an underlying tone of the OP's concerns, the variable chosen to represent it is cost which may not be the best choice, but there does need to be some changes in the industry.


But the same could be said for any industry. What does my hand tailored Italian suit that cost £3000 (theoretical example - i don't own one) have in terms of scientific evidence to prove it's better than you're £99 M&S suit, yet no one is asking for the fashion industry to have a shake up.

People of this world, for example those with money like buying things that are expensive and other people don't have. Not everything can or needs to be justified by scientific evidence, to go along with marketing.


----------



## uruk hai

I have found this a good read and dont understand those who say its a pointless thread, if thats the way you feel about it why bother contributing 

I was all for paying about £30 - £40 for wax but after seeing pictures, film clips and reading about just how happy some people seem to be with the Collinite range of products I think I'll give one of those a try when my current wax runs out next year.


----------



## catch the pigeo

Chilly can you or *cant* you elaborate on the research you have done


----------



## gex23

If your going to make such sweeping statements, at least ensure your literacy is spot on


----------



## Dave KG

rmorgan84 said:


> But the same could be said for any industry. What does my hand tailored Italian suit that cost £3000 (theoretical example - i don't own one) have in terms of scientific evidence to prove it's better than you're £99 M&S suit, yet no one is asking for the fashion industry to have a shake up.
> 
> People of this world, for example those with money like buying things that are expensive and other people don't have. Not everything can or needs to be justified by scientific evidence, to go along with marketing.


In terms of the suit, my tailored suit has the advantage of being a better fit to me than the "cheaper" off-the-peg ones I have from M&S... Certain fabrics also breathe better than others which aids wearing comfort. The suit example is a very good one, because whether or not one would pay huge amounts extra for the small benefits is very much up to the individual (as I have stated in my previous posts with regard to people buying waxes). However, the benefits are tenable. And can be shown, both in practice and scientifically. The crux of the matter is quite simple - it is up to the individual whether or not they spend the money or not... but the individual should be entitled to the information they want to aid their decisions and whether or not they choose to base their decision on this information is up to them.

This is what I would like to see in the wax industry. More information, factual information based on testing or sound science, from which those with the interest in getting the best they can for themselves or their customers can use to aid their decision on what to buy and use. If others are happy just to buy whatever is best marketed to them, then that is also fine, but that is not my style.

You are right, not everything in life needs a scientific justification - but when one is called for, the manufacturer who comes forward with one first will be well ahead of the game.


----------



## Dave KG

gex23 said:


> If your going to make such sweeping statements, at least ensure your literacy is spot on


Literacy from whom? Its not an English exam, its an open forum and there are many reasons for which a whole load of people will not make posts that are 100% perfect... be that simple keyboard slips or deeper seated reasons... I hate seeing folk calling for perfect literacy on a discussion board.


----------



## catch the pigeo

gex23 said:


> If your going to make such sweeping statements, at least ensure your literacy is spot on


Who ?


----------



## HeavenlyDetail

I like the expensive containers and silk pouches and have most waxes hidden somewhere. 
If you want it buy it if you dont dont. Simples.
if you like nattys good for you , i simply dont.


----------



## gex23

Dave KG said:


> Literacy from whom? Its not an English exam, its an open forum and there are many reasons for which a whole load of people will not make posts that are 100% perfect... be that simple keyboard slips or deeper seated reasons... I hate seeing folk calling for perfect literacy on a discussion board.


I'm not trying to flame anyone here - I was merely pointing out that such an important discussion would be taken more seriously if the topic at least had a correctly spelt title.

I agree with others though, if you don't like the price of £50 + waxes, then don't buy them, it really is as simple as that. There is plenty in the sub £50 category you can buy and be perfectly happy with, it's not like your forced to spend lots of money on said wax is it

All IMO of course 



catch the pigeo said:


> Who ?


The OP.


----------



## -Kev-

gex23 said:


> *I'm not trying to flame anyone here - I was merely pointing out that such an important discussion would be taken more seriously if the topic at least had a correctly spelt title*.
> 
> I agree with others though, if you don't like the price of £50 + waxes, then don't buy them, it really is as simple as that. There is plenty in the sub £50 category you can buy and be perfectly happy with, it's not like your forced to spend lots of money on said wax is it
> 
> All IMO of course
> 
> The OP.


because one 'o' is missing from the word too? :doublesho


----------



## -ROM-

Dave KG said:


> In terms of the suit, my tailored suit has the advantage of being a better fit to me than the "cheaper" off-the-peg ones I have from M&S... Certain fabrics also breathe better than others which aids wearing comfort. The suit example is a very good one, because whether or not one would pay huge amounts extra for the small benefits is very much up to the individual (as I have stated in my previous posts with regard to people buying waxes). However, the benefits are tenable. And can be shown, both in practice and scientifically. The crux of the matter is quite simple - it is up to the individual whether or not they spend the money or not... but the individual should be entitled to the information they want to aid their decisions and whether or not they choose to base their decision on this information is up to them.
> 
> This is what I would like to see in the wax industry. More information, factual information based on testing or sound science, from which those with the interest in getting the best they can for themselves or their customers can use to aid their decision on what to buy and use. If others are happy just to buy whatever is best marketed to them, then that is also fine, but that is not my style.
> 
> You are right, not everything in life needs a scientific justification - but when one is called for, the manufacturer who comes forward with one first will be well ahead of the game.


But how do you justify/implement it? Back to the suit analogy; the slightly better fit can be likened to the slightly "sharper" look of a high end wax such as that of Vintage. The same could be said about the lovely smell that you get from Destiny which makes it more "comfortable" or enjoyable to use because you're not overcome with the strong smell of solvents/chemicals, so it's easier to breathe...

Some of the properties that make a wax appealing simply cannot be quantified and unless you can quantify something you cannot justify it in a scientific manner.

IMO it's very much like red wine, i've tasted expensive wine that to me tastes like dog **** and other equivalent priced wine which has been smooth, fruity and very pleasant to drink; ask ten people to taste them and you'd get half that agreed with me and half that would not. There's no way of scientifically proving which one is better.


----------



## gex23

I was simply stating a point on what is meant to be an Open forum


----------



## uruk hai

Gex23, until you mentioned it I never even noticed that there was a spelling mistake and I think that shows that the overall content of the thread is far more important than every line and sentence having perfect grammar and punctuation.


----------



## gex23

Thats a fair point well made, I however did. I was simply pointing it out and also added my 2p worth on the discussion


----------



## Divine

gex23 said:


> Thats a fair point well made, I however did. I was simply pointing it out and also added my 2p worth on the discussion


If you do this all the time, can you add your 2p my way?!


----------



## gex23

:tumbleweed:


----------



## -ROM-

gex23 said:


> If *your *going to make such sweeping statements, at least ensure your literacy is spot on


I'm sorry i don't understand your point. Did you mean "you're"? If your literacy was spot on i may have understood your important point!


----------



## -Kev-

gex23 said:


> :tumbleweed:


you've made no contribution to this thread, other than taking it off topic imo 
(is my spelling o.k)?


----------



## gex23

rmorgan84 said:


> I'm sorry i don't understand your point. Did you mean "you're"? If your literacy was spot on i may have understood your important point!


Apologies 



-Kev- said:


> you've made no contribution to this thread, other than taking it off topic imo
> (is my spelling o.k)?


I did actually read the original post, the replies and added my own reply based on my limited experience, if you re-read my posts.


----------



## uruk hai

O.K, he made his point and we've made ours, why dont we leave it at that


----------



## MidlandsCarCare

"Capital I's" Mr Morgan, that's frankly shocking!


----------



## -ROM-

RussZS said:


> "Capital I's" Mr Morgan, that's frankly shocking!


 <hangs head in shame>


----------



## Avanti

chillly said:


> FELLAS I DONT KNOW ABOUT YOU LOT BUT I WANT TO BRING DOWN THE COST OF WAX TO AN EXCEPTABLE LEVEL.
> 
> Imo wax which is over £50 is not only extortionate but only feel good marteting hype. so what about it should we DO ABOUT IT as a collective? should we carry on from what dodo has started and stated?? its up to you??
> 
> Remember guys its the humble member who pays for the big profits.. cheers chillly a humble honest member of DW


What do you call an acceptable level? I have too many tubs of waxes (and bottles for that matter) , I must confess those that retail at the 40-50 pound mark do leave (IMO) a prettier finish than most of the 20 quid tubs when it comes to jetting factor, the water wet look beats for me the glass shine that lower cost options offer prep or no prep


----------



## Dave KG

rmorgan84 said:


> But how do you justify/implement it? Back to the suit analogy; the slightly better fit can be likened to the slightly "sharper" look of a high end wax such as that of Vintage. The same could be said about the lovely smell that you get from Destiny which makes it more "comfortable" or enjoyable to use because you're not overcome with the strong smell of solvents/chemicals, so it's easier to breathe...
> 
> Some of the properties that make a wax appealing simply cannot be quantified and unless you can quantify something you cannot justify it in a scientific manner.
> 
> IMO it's very much like red wine, i've tasted expensive wine that to me tastes like dog **** and other equivalent priced wine which has been smooth, fruity and very pleasant to drink; ask ten people to taste them and you'd get half that agreed with me and half that would not. There's no way of scientifically proving which one is better.


A good scientist's skill is finding variables to measure - durability is the obvious one for a wax, but this naturally does not address the variable of looks and the differences that are claimed to lie there. So how does one measure differences in looks? The wax test went a long way to doing this by showing nothing other than statistical variation in the results suggested that the sample set there could not see a difference in the looks of the products - indeed many on the day said they could not tell the difference.

Returning to you suit analogy - a better fitting suit will naturally look better than one which is loose... you can _see_ the difference. Can you _see_ the difference between Royale and 476S? Does a high end wax have a sharper look than that of a lower wax? If it does indeed have one, it would be clear to see, a bit like the properly fitting suit. But it is not clear to see. We simple go on physchologically affected opinions.

What you mention about waxes and what makes them appealing has been raised by me in the past when discussin simply the cost issue - if we dont just consider on paper performance, we can start to consider the certain "je ne sai quoi" that is possessed by some waxes. I would cite Ben's Original Edition here, it feels special, feels made for you, a bit like that tailored suit. Does it perform on paper better than 476S - no, its not quite as durable, but do you care - that is down to the individual, and in the case of that wax I dont care because of the feeling.

But you miss my point in my postings... which are not just about the cost, but also about the marketing behind different products which is as I have said before, questionable to say the least. The looks that are often claimed are measureable if they do indeed exist and this is where the science comes in, and where I would like to see the science coming in. "Better" will always have a personal opinion attached to it, but the wax industry lacks any substantial basis to a lot of its claims that would help a lot of people make more informed decisions about what product to buy. It is not black and white, and it would be a fool to claim otherwise, but science does have its place in this discussion and in the LSP industry.


----------



## -ROM-

Have you got any examples of these claims, Dave?


----------



## Dave KG

rmorgan84 said:


> Have you got any examples of these claims, Dave?


Read any manufacturers website and you will see them, you dont need me to point them out


----------



## Dave KG

Although I would add, if you would like specific examples to be pointed to, I am more than happy to point you in the direction by PM - it is not in my style to openly rubbish individual manufacturers on a public forum, by keeping one's posts general it ensures all fairness to all parties involved.


----------



## HeavenlyDetail

scientifically higher end waxes may not by a glossmeter produce better results but visually to me i can see/feel a difference , if i had to compare crystal rock/royale to 476 on an Arden blue bonnet ive been less than impressed with 476 compared to the other 2.
yes its debateable and yes im sure its slight but its my opinion , no matter what scientifics proof anyone throws at me it will always be my opinion , ive played and played and played with all my waxes and im happy that my expensive ones give me a nicer result. Im happy paying 3 times the amount for a pretty box and silk lining the same as im happy to pay £399 for a Bowers and wilkins ipod dock compared to a £100 jbl one even if i could hardly tell the difference , its just me and im sure others follow suit in some respect.
Sometimes a feel good factor is as important when its a hobby. Just look at the problems when people wanna share a tub of BOS , someone always wants the pot , why its the wax thats important , stick it in a hairspray lid , why does it matter? But it so does!
So there.


----------



## -ROM-

Dave KG said:


> Although I would add, if you would like specific examples to be pointed to, I am more than happy to point you in the direction by PM - it is not in my style to openly rubbish individual manufacturers on a public forum, by keeping one's posts general it ensures all fairness to all parties involved.


Yeah PM me Dave. I don't really pay a lot of attention to the claims each manufacturer makes. However anything i have seen hasn't struck me as being false advertising, etc just claims that could be considered a little subjective.


----------



## Dave KG

rmorgan84 said:


> Yeah PM me Dave. I don't really pay a lot of attention to the claims each manufacturer makes. However anything i have seen hasn't struck me as being false advertising, etc just claims that could be considered a little subjective.


You have PM :thumb:

As said above, I dont believe in individually rubbishing manufacturers but it certainly does not take a lot of looking around to see some quite extravagent claims from some manufacturers


----------



## Eddy

well I'm not here to rubbish anyones claims but to quote one company who charge £8k for a certain wax:

"Will give your car the best shine you have ever seen"

as has been said many many times on here, this simply to the human eye is extremely hard to agree with.


----------



## -ROM-

Dave KG said:


> You have PM :thumb:
> 
> As said above, I dont believe in individually rubbishing manufacturers but it certainly does not take a lot of looking around to see some quite extravagent claims from some manufacturers


replied.


----------



## Leemack

I have a range of different waxes and the most expensive one i have is Zymol Concours but i get excellent results from a £15 pot of Megs #16.


----------



## Dave KG

rmorgan84 said:


> replied.


And replied.

You and I both know we could dance around meanings of wordings all day long if we want too, but as said in the PM, there still exists a lot of misleading marketing which is serving to mislead those who don't have the knowledge to know better (yet).

Claims of enhancement of quantifiable variables are rather hard and fast, as you found in one of the claims (and you dont need to search much further to find similar), and it is things like this which to me should be called into question and put up for testing to verify the validity of the claims.


----------



## Frothey

Dave KG said:


> You are right, not everything in life needs a scientific justification - but when one is called for, the manufacturer who comes forward with one first will be well ahead of the game.


not true, there are plenty of (non-detailing) products out there which have been proved to be the same/better, yet people won't but them because they haven't the right image. After all, after using Happy Shopper brand deodourant I've tried dousing myself in Lynx aftershave, but women haven't suddenly appeared in their undies.....



Dave KG said:


> Returning to you suit analogy - a better fitting suit will naturally look better than one which is loose... you can _see_ the difference. Can you _see_ the difference between Royale and 476S? Does a high end wax have a sharper look than that of a lower wax? If it does indeed have one, it would be clear to see, a bit like the properly fitting suit. But it is not clear.


So why do people spend 10x the amount on a Quiksilver T-Shirt which is a re-branded Fruit Of The Loom one - normally even has the FOTL label inside? That's as clear as clear can be, yet people ignore it.

Everyone will "claim" things, it's called marketing. I'm not sure Z would sell many tubs of Royalle if they said "You'll never tell the difference between this and Colli!" - but if you get sucked in by it, that's another thing.

If I could afford Solaris, would I use it? Probably, because I could. If I was in the position to pay £30k or whatever on a tub of wax, I'm not sure that worrying about whether it cost £5 or £5000 to produce is the top of my priorities. Did you see that restaurant bill of Roman Abramovic's?


----------



## Dave KG

In The Detail said:


> not true, there are plenty of (non-detailing) products out there which have been proved to be the same/better, yet people won't but them because they haven't the right image. After all, after using Happy Shopper brand deodourant I've tried dousing myself in Lynx aftershave, but women haven't suddenly appeared in their undies.....
> 
> So why do people spend 10x the amount on a Quiksilver T-Shirt which is a re-branded Fruit Of The Loom one - normally even has the FOTL label inside? That's as clear as clear can be, yet people ignore it.
> 
> Everyone will "claim" things, it's called marketing. I'm not sure Z would sell many tubs of Royalle if they said "You'll never tell the difference between this and Colli!" - but if you get sucked in by it, that's another thing.
> 
> If I could afford Solaris, would I use it? Probably, because I could. If I was in the position to pay £30k or whatever on a tub of wax, I'm not sure that worrying about whether it cost £5 or £5000 to produce is the top of my priorities. Did you see that restaurant bill of Roman Abramovic's?


The entire posts regards cost, which I have said previously in this post in not what I am looking for. I dont think that marketing will disappear, but what I would like to see are some scientific justifactions and some real independent testing of different LSPs that can allow those that want to make the choice based on sound informtation the opportunity too. There will always be people who will buy on image, and this frankly wont be of interest to them... but there are also those who want to know exactly where there money is going, and what will make the best use of it in terms of protecting their car's paint finish and it is to this group I would like to see some useful information. Those in image wont care about performance, those you are talking about in your post - but that is not the entire industry, there are many others who do care about how a product performs and what can be achieved and whether or not spending more really does get better results. I cannot comment on Quiksilver (?), as I didn't even know that was a brand (is it? :lol of clothing, but I suspect the reason people will pay more is so they can be seen wearing the badge. Can you be seen wearing an expensive wax (or rather can you car be seen with it?) - does applying saw Swissvax put a big Swissvax badge down the side of the car like a Nike stripe?


----------



## Frothey

Dave KG said:


> does applying saw Swissvax put a big Swissvax badge down the side of the car like a Nike stripe?


It does on here....... It does to bankers sitting around the table bragging how much they've just spent having their GT3 cleaned (or it did, now it's about how much they've saved on their Natty's when they cleaned their C1 :lol

Expensive waxes are all about brand snobbery, feel good feeling and justifying the price to yourself - like with many products. Yes, an expensive watch may scientifically proven be 2 seconds more accurate 30years down the line than mine, but to be fair as the batteries get replaced every 18 months it doesn't make any difference.

to me.

which is what it's all about

ps.Quiksilver


----------



## Dodo Factory

This is a topic quite close to my heart, for various reasons.

When I started fiddling around with waxes, I knew nothing about them, apart from the marketing propaganda that I had been fed along with everyone else. So I thought more of ingredient x and a smattering of ultra rare ingredient y where going to be the answer... The magical formula to create the leading wax in the world.

I learned a few things from my experiments over the months (and now years) that followed. Some of these were learned at first hand - and yes, I have tested the 'magical' waxes costing up to 7000 GBP - and other lessons were learned from my relationship with our chemists... guys who are basically far more scientifically trained than me. As Dirty Harry once said, 'a man has to know his limitations'.

I learned a lot, and I'm still learning, but here's the top ten things I learned, or at least ten that came into my head just now:

1) There is an awful lot of BS regarding what you are told is in certain waxes
2) There is an awful lot of BS regarding what ACTUALLY is in certain waxes (ie what is there but you're not told about)
3) Carnauba content is a poor way to assess overall performance and is overrated/overmarketd
4) 'Natural' claims tend to be overstated
5) Waxes and sealants cross over all the time, to differentiate them is almost meaningless these days
6) The prep is far more important than people realise when it comes to overall wax performance
7) Waxes don't add much to the look, but are there mainly for protection - prep is the stage that adds the most to gloss levels
8) As certain desirable wax characteristics go up, certain other desirable characteristics may go down (typically ease of use or 'naturalness' is traded against durability)
9) It can be easier getting high performance from synthetic ingredients than natural ones
10) Never believe the label or what the manufacturer says

Now, this is basically how Dodo Juice got born. The name itself is a nod towards the mythical uber ingredients that were supposed to endow waxes with superior qualities (superwaxes would have to have rare and expensive ingredients in, like extract of extinct dodo, to justify their high costs).

There was a desire to do something a bit differently, to bust a few myths, and in some respects we have succeeded and in others we have accidentally trodden down the same path as other manufacturers or confused the market in other ways. For that, we apologise. But we'll sort those issues out over the coming years as we believe in being forthcoming and engaging, and discussing the ins and outs of wax manufacture, and car care in general. We have set ourselves up to benefit from an educated audience and from people being aware of the facts. This wasn't some clever trick, but basic marketing survival - as a 'challenger' brand in the market place, we have to act differently. As they say in those business books, when some companies zig, we zag.

We could have set up just another car care company and fed everyone the same myths and legends, and believe me, I'd probably be driving a Ferrari by now if I had done, rather than the wife's Focus diesel. We would sell ten times a much shampoo by bulking it out but making it slippery, shiny and foam a lot... and by reducing the soap content... this rarely gets noticed compared to the other characteristics!). But I didn't like the BS when I was a consumer, and we are brave enough to hope a few people follow our ideals and appreciate what we do when we bring carnauba percentages, or dilution ratios of cheap shampoos, to the table. Therefore, we sell a relatively small number of specialist products that 'the mass market' will probably never appreciate. A shame in some ways, but then some people don't appreciate high end audio or beautiful cars, watches or whatever. Each to their own 

So, the real question... why are waxes so expensive? Especially in comparison to 'normal' priced stuff like shampoos and polishes or compounds?

The answer is two fold. Firstly, waxes themselves have a glorious magic surrounding them, like perfumes are inherently more valuable than air fresheners. They tend to be more akin to fashion brands and art than mere commodities. This has been touched upon earlier. So in that respect, if a wax was brought by an Amercian gent over the phone at Sotherby's for a squillion quid to go next to the Warhol stuck on the garage well next to where the Veyron is parked, I could believe it. Is the guy an idiot? Or just living his dream? Value, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder.

Secondly, people don't really know about the true cost of making a wax because 99.99999% of people have never done so. I'm lucky enough to have made them at home and to also run a company that makes them in relatively small quantities in a small factory/lab. Here's a brief run down, in no particular order, as each product is different.

Costs in business are almost infinitely variable, but you'll generally have the following:

- Materials costs... these will be relatively small; I calculated approx 35 GBP of raw materials (as a maximum gross cost) in an unnamed thousand pound wax. Some ingredients are more expensive than others. Some of the synthetic ingredients are cheaper and more effective than the traditional 'natural' ingredients, and yet some are even more expensive... no special or simple rule, sadly. There is some justification in certain products costing more as T1 carnauba is more expensive than T3 carnauba by quite a way, and yet there is little performance benefit in reality... people insist on having the finest grade carnauba so it gets specified and used. But you're not paying for raw materials above 30 GBP, as a general rule. You'd need some very rare and expensive ingredient or technology for that, and whilst it does happen and may exist in some cases, you'd want to firmly know that it offered a tangible benefit in scientific reality. You can pay more for some 'odourless' solvents, but then the benefit is obvious... you can't smell the solvent. It's just a case of checking what the claimed ingredient is doing, especially if it costs a lot.

- R&D costs... now this is really what can dictate the cost of a wax. If a guy spends a year in the lab and makes five pots of a magic car care product, what price those pots? Say a chemist is on 30k a year, you could perhaps charge 6k a jar and throw the raw ingredients and packaging in for free. Yet what if it was an 'old' recipe, the R&D costs of which had been paid off years ago, and you churned out a million jars of it a year? Well, R&D costs would be in the pence, if any at all. Chemists have to be paid, like anyone else, and the rarer a wax and the more fiddly or technically challenging the project, the more lab time it may take up. This is why Supernatural costs a bit more than our normal waxes - because it takes 2-3x as long to improve a basic recipe once it's good. To go a little bit further takes up a lot of extra lab time, testing etc. And this is why you should always stick with a lower recipe wax if you are happy with it. Because the higher recipe waxes take a lot of time to formulate and they are only fractionally superior to the main range waxes. It's like getting into a 150mph car would perhaps cost you 8k in the second hand car market. But what does it cost getting into a 180mph car? Maybe 35k? And a 200mph car? 55k? And 220mph... 150k plus? You're getting 70% of that 220mph performance for 5% of the cost with your 8k saloon. Something similar happens with waxes. However, just to confuse things even more, that's not to even say in the wax world that a 7k wax even outlasts a 10 GBP wax. Just that it will have had a lot of time spent on its development set against a small number of anticipated sales. Chemists may aim to make it look better, or be easier to use, than to go for all-out durability. They don't necessarily judge products by sheeting or beading. Some may look at resistance to certain chemicals, or to certain environments. A wax that gets slated on here may actually be a high performer in unknown or unappreciated ways. There is no 'speed trap' to measure the performance of these products by, in a precise and independent sense. But that lab time may be real enough. This means that larger manufacturers selling more waxes may have lower r&d costs per unit... but you'd have to hope the chemists had a free reign and that the formula hasn't been dumbed down by an accountant or marketing people making it 'easy to use'. I wish it were as simple as a product with a thousand hours spent on it being better than one that has had a hundred hours of development spent on it. But then a good chemist may work at twice the speed of a poor one, or come up with something twice as good? Costs are costs. The end result is debatable, but you have to hope it's going to be better 

- Packaging. This is much more critical now than it ever was. E.g. our wooden pots cost far more to make than we'd like and have even gone up in cost since introduction. And there are far more expensive and grander looking pots/jars available. People pay for nice packaging every day - check the perfume department. Whether you want it or not depends on what the feel good factor means to you.

- Manufacturing costs and manufacturer profit... the ingredients need sourcing, storing, mixing, pouring and then the products need labelling, storing, packing, distributing etc. The wax doesn't melt itself and I'm still looking for self labelling jars  ... a labelling machine can cost 30k. Pouring machines for a single product and without much automation are 5k each. Then you need premises, pay a few salaries etc. It would be like expecting a detailer to merely charge for materials costs when he machine polishes your car... 'there's a fiver to cover the Menzerna, mate'!!! There are a few unavoidable costs involved, and these need to be covered. Again, larger operations can perhaps dilute the costs over many thousands of units, but they they have more costs to begin with. How many managers does a big company have compared to the guys doing the stirring and melting? Are you paying for the MD's lunches and company car? There's no right or wrong with this, or black and white 'good vs bad'. Large and small concerns both have different cost structures and inherent advantages and disadvantages.

- Reseller margin... for many wax manufacturers, you need someone to distribute and sell your product for you. They're skilful salesmen, customer care advisors and distribution experts. They deserve to be paid somehow, so that gets built into the price. 

- VAT... God bless Gordon... he takes his share as well. In some cases it is as much or more than the people who make or distribute/sell it!

- Marketing and other costs. There could be some other costs involved... sometimes the more expensive products actually require the higher price to plough back into marketing budgets, sometimes the high price is the marketing itself. The 'wax for life' schemes were a pot is bottomless has to have its cost covered out of this budget. What if someone never refills? Or refills 1000 times?

In summary, you will know where a lot of the money goes behind the scenes now, so never judge a thousand pound wax on its 30 quid raw materials cost, even if that were true. All you'd have is 30 quid of raw materials, unstirred, unmelted, unpackaged and unloved, sitting in front of you. And I think we'd all be poorer if that was the case.

Every product tends to have its place, or at least I hope that every product can *justify* its place or position, to an educated and informed audience. The more choice in the market, the better. You don't have to buy a product if you don't want to. You can vote with your wallet.

The final thought, however, is that it is easy to blind a customer with science and baffle them with BS, and misleading, miscalculating and misinforming the market is easy to get away with in a relatively non-regulated industry like car care. I have seen manufacturers misleading people both unknowingly and knowingly. Have your wits about you and do your own research and learn from your own experiences. Even honest and well meaning forum members may inadvertenly mislead and misinform - I can still remember stating that no dedicated fillers are in Lime Prime (which is true) and that therefore it is unlikely to fill, only to see it filling before my eyes at a later date, just through the glazing oils on very fine micro-marring! So trust no-one, but read as widely as you can.

I think this forum has done a lot for the advance of general comsumer knowledge about car care, and long may it do so.


----------



## Top_Gun

A provocative thesis:

No wax is too expensive.

This is also valid in business-economical terms.

In business economics, there is (at least in german) a factor called "luxury effect". "Luxury effect" is what a sommelier will appreciate when he buys and devours a bottle of whine for 1,000 Euros, or what a collector of art appreciates in a Picasso which nearly noone is able to afford.

If you deliver a product at an outstanding price and are able to present a luxury effect to customers, there will be customers who are willing to pay for the product because they assume that it is top-of-the-line and not available to people who are not able to spend that much money, or don't care enough to spend that much money. Or they have enough money to spend it on very expensive products based on the assumption that they will get top-quality without bothering with the selection process.

So there are three levels of luxury effect:


Cheap, good-value products
More expensive, good products
Extremely expensive, good products

If someone enters the market, he must address one of these segments.

The first segment belongs to the companies which sell through supermarkets, gas stations et al.

In segment 2, there are companies like Megs, Dodo et al

Segment 3 is targeted by companies like Zymol, Swissvax etc.

For each segment, there are customers who can rationalize their decision to buy these products. And if a product finds enough customers in one of these segments, it is an economical success, so it is not too expensive.

Best regards,

Detlev


----------



## chillly

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

FELLAS I DONT KNOW ABOUT YOU LOT BUT I WANT TO BRING DOWN THE COST OF WAX TO AN EXCEPTABLE LEVEL.

This was my opening comment and i still want to hear more from 26.000 members on hear. As always its an open debate and all opinions are more than welcome.

I must stress that there is no offence towards anyone as it is an open forum and lets hear more. I must say i have read some great comments by all :thumb::thumb:


----------



## Avanti

chillly said:


> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> FELLAS I DONT KNOW ABOUT YOU LOT BUT I WANT TO BRING DOWN THE COST OF WAX TO AN EXCEPTABLE LEVEL.
> 
> This was my opening comment and i still want to hear more from 26.000 members on hear. As always its an open debate and all opinions are more than welcome.
> 
> I must stress that there is no offence towards anyone as it is an open forum and lets hear more. I must say i have read some great comments by all :thumb::thumb:


As asked earlier, what do you call an acceptable level?
After all you are entitled to contribute too


----------



## Dave KG

Good to see one of the wax manufacturers (and there are a few who are members here ) come on with an informed post to add to the discussion... as was mentioned before, part of the reason some companies have to charge more for a wax is that they are a smaller company and don't have volume sales and volume production to allow the costs to be lowered... What one must of course be very careful in noting here is that mass production and cost lowering does not equate to a reduction in quality, simply that some manufacturers are able to product products at a lower price owing to their position on the market and the financial backing which they have.

There will always be products in every market which cost more, to allow those who want to spend more to have something to buy... naturally these products may well claim to be the best in order to jusitfy their prices, but whether they actually translate to being the best in practice is a completely different story. This is the marketing angle and it is this that I would far rather see being tackled - not put a stop to it, but simply add a different more scientific angle to things to allow folk to make more informed decisions should they wish to do so.

Another good point is made above about reading the forums - everyone has an opinion and people's opinions are based on their own experiences which vary from person to person. The more opinions we have, the more justification of claims and discussion of products we have, the better. Nobody's opinion is more or less qualified than the next in an open discussion forum and those reading the reviews and the opinions should be very aware of the value of _all_ posters. Read around, use all the information you have, marry it with your own experiences and form your opinions from there - but to do this requires a lot more knowledge to be on the forum in the first place in my opinion in terms of the science behind LSPs as currently there is still too much in the way of manufacturer claims and not enough in the way of science or in-practie justification.


----------



## Deanoecosse

chillly said:


> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> FELLAS I DONT KNOW ABOUT YOU LOT BUT I WANT TO BRING DOWN THE COST OF WAX TO AN EXCEPTABLE LEVEL.


but there are loads of waxes already out there at what anyone would surely class as an "acceptable level". As with anything in life there will ALWAYS be items at each end of the pricing scale. If you don't want to spend £100, £1000, £8000 on a wax, nobody is holding a gun to your head to buy it, you can go out and buy a wax at a price point your happy with, end of, It's your choice.


----------



## Avanti

Deanoecosse said:


> but there are loads of waxes already out there at what anyone would surely class as an "acceptable level". As with anything in life there will ALWAYS be items at each end of the pricing scale. If you don't want to spend £100, £1000, £8000 on a wax, nobody is holding a gun to your head to buy it, you can go out and buy a wax at a price point your happy with, end of, It's your choice.


Which makes me wonder what is the point of the thread


----------



## Dodo Factory

Avanti said:


> Which makes me wonder what is the point of the thread


It could be entitled 'supercars cost too much IMO' and posted on a car forum. I'm sure there would be similar arguments between those with Ferraris talking about automotive art and spine tingling sensations and those who get from A to B in a Yaris and pay zero road tax and get 236mpg out of it 

There's no right or wrong answer.

It is a statement with plenty of issues to debate but few conclusions to draw from it... but some knowledge could be gained by discussing it and it would do no harm to chat about it. So in that respect, it has a point as a post (IMO)


----------



## Top_Gun

chillly said:


> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> FELLAS I DONT KNOW ABOUT YOU LOT BUT I WANT TO BRING DOWN THE COST OF WAX TO AN EXCEPTABLE LEVEL.


Sorry, but I do get the impression that you are more on an agenda than on the search for answers.

As has been stated before, there are plenty of waxes of very good quality at an acceptable level.

M16, Dodo SN, Zymol are all very good waxes, as are a lot of waxes I am too lazy to mention.

However, asking Zymol and Swizöl/Swisswax to lower their prices is ridiculous. Their business model depends on their pricing. They serve a specific segment of the market.

Best regards,

Detlev


----------



## Dave KG

Dodo Factory said:


> It could be entitled 'supercars cost too much IMO' and posted on a car forum. I'm sure there would be similar arguments between those with Ferraris talking about automotive art and spine tingling sensations and those who get from A to B in a Yaris and pay zero road tax and get 236mpg out of it
> 
> There's no right or wrong answer.
> 
> It is a statement with plenty of issues to debate but few conclusions to draw from it... but some knowledge could be gained by discussing it and it would do no harm to chat about it. So in that respect, it has a point as a post (IMO)


Indeed - while the actual reduction of cost is not perhaps what most would like to see, an open and frank disucssion which this thread has started is what a lot of members would like to see about the prodcuts they use... for those that dont care, that is of course fine, continue to spend  For those that want to know a bit more, and see some more of the blurb being peeled away from the industry, threads like this serve their purpose well :thumb:


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## HeavenlyDetail

Just out of interest what are peoples opinions on this kind of thread being damageing rather than good or is that for another thread?
The reason i ask is because in life sometimes we look for things as an ideal in that what we receive is sometimes overtaken by the excitement of wanting the kudos that comes with a product in otherwords how i felt about getting my zymol briefcase and its contents.? I loved this item it could have cost a grand and i would have still wanted it because of what it was , a kit like no other , full of magical ingredients that would transform my car but at a high price , but this to me was over half of the reason i wanted it because of its looks not its contents. Roll forward a couple of years and it hasnt been off the wall for at least 16 months because the reality has kicked in it is exactly that a plastic briefcase full of products and nothing magical. Still good but the magic has worn off for the initial sale point.
If we are to believe that wax is no better or no worse regardless of price then we are simply buying a product for its packaging not content and what is the point of coloured waxes and high carnauba content is it all irelevant and should there only be collonite 476 a foul smelling wax that everyone loves with the ultimate timescale for protection?
I just wonder what people think because this scientifically is what im reading on here , i dont have a problem with it at all but i wonder if it scares people away from enjoying detailing abit like the curtain being pulled back at the end of the wizard of oz and seeing the old guy pulling the strings and there being no wizard?


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## Avanti

Dodo Factory said:


> It could be entitled 'supercars cost too much IMO' and posted on a car forum. I'm sure there would be similar arguments between those with Ferraris talking about automotive art and spine tingling sensations and those who get from A to B in a Yaris and pay zero road tax and get 236mpg out of it
> 
> There's no right or wrong answer.
> 
> It is a statement with plenty of issues to debate but few conclusions to draw from it... but some knowledge could be gained by discussing it and it would do no harm to chat about it. So in that respect, it has a point as a post (IMO)


I agree with that but when the OP does not even bother to suggest what is an acceptable level, that is where I can't see the point. EVERY wax or any other product for that matter is priced correctly, just because somebody cannot afford it, does not make it over priced.
There is a wax at every price point from £1 to 1000s if SN was suddenly sold for £10 a pot, I'm sure it would lose some of it's appeal even though the performance would not be affected in anyway, if somebody's salary was suddenly doubled it would not mean they will automatically work twice as hard 

The price being paid is not just for the product in the tub it's for the whole customer experience and euphoria of ownership


----------



## Leemack

If i was loaded i might try a very expensive wax but i'm not so i can't.

I think every product group has it's wildcards and expensive items. 

I mean FFS you can buy a last Rolo in Gold for £60 so what next? I wouldn't pay £60 for a pretend chocolate thread


----------



## -ROM-

The focus of this thread has now moved on...

I think the main problem that Dave has highlighted is that the people who have been around a while know that (and accept) boutique waxes aren't really any better, but if we still choose to buy it we're basing the purchase on it being nice to own, etc, etc... however newbies may be shelling out £600 on a boutique wax thinking it is going to make their car look amazing when in reality a £65 pot of supernatural will look every bit as good.

In this scenario the consumer is effectively being conned out of £500+ of their money.


----------



## Aero

chillly said:


> Imo wax which is over £50 is not only extortionate but only feel good marteting hype.


One month ago http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=143267


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## HeavenlyDetail

rmorgan84 said:


> The focus of this thread has now moved on...
> 
> I think the main problem that Dave has highlighted is that the people who have been around a while know that (and accept) boutique waxes aren't really any better, but if we still choose to buy it we're basing the purchase on it being nice to own, etc, etc... however newbies may be shelling out £600 on a boutique wax thinking it is going to make their car look amazing when in reality a £65 pot of supernatural will look every bit as good.
> 
> In this scenario the consumer is effectively being conned out of £500+ of their money.


The problem is if one person says its better then the claim is substantiated.
My hair still dont look like David ginolas? i feel im worth it.


----------



## Leemack

At the end of the day it's all down to the individual.

I have seen my pot of megs #16 outperform a pot of £80 wax so if someone wants to buy the £80 wax then so be it.

This thread could go on forever


----------



## -ROM-

vxrmarc said:


> *The problem is if one person says its better then the claim is substantiated.*
> My hair still dont look like David ginolas? i feel im worth it.


Not really if i say cooking fat is a better LSP than Zaino, Zymol, Swissvax, etc does that substantiate it?


----------



## Avanti

Showshine said:


> At the end of the day it's all down to the individual.
> 
> I have seen my pot of megs #16 outperform a pot of £80 wax so if someone wants to buy the £80 wax then so be it.
> 
> This thread could go on forever


Looking at a couple of studio threads this evening same author different cars using different waxes one budget and one not so, one looks nice the other very nice :thumb:


----------



## HeavenlyDetail

rmorgan84 said:


> Not really if i say cooking fat is a better LSP than Zaino, Zymol, Swissvax, etc does that substantiate it?


In my opinion if one person useing the product in question not another product states this then yes.


----------



## chrisc

ive had these so called super waxes and think there a bit of hype.good marketing to part you from your hard earned cash.ill stick to what i like and not follow the latest fashion.same as these test reviews detailing worlds doing only pros moderators and graphics man so far done them.i like to listen from someone whats got no gain in saying if its good or bad.


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## alan_mcc

chillly said:


> Wax costs to much imo


Don't buy it then?


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## caledonia

chrisc said:


> ive had these so called super waxes and think there a bit of hype.good marketing to part you from your hard earned cash.ill stick to what i like and not follow the latest fashion.same as these test reviews detailing worlds doing only pros moderators and graphics man so far done them.i like to listen from someone whats got no gain in saying if its good or bad.


I am current testing a few products. But as of now I am not happy I have a fair reflection of the products being tested. I am waiting to see how they preform. But there will be no high scoring. Not that they are bad products. But I have to leave myself some scope in case a better product in this class comes along.

Hopefully in the next few weeks I will be happy to post up my thoughts.
Gordon.


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## chrisc

caledonia said:


> I am current testing a few products. But as of now I am not happy I have a fair reflection of the products being tested. I am waiting to see how they preform. But there will be no high scoring. Not that they are bad products. But I have to leave myself some scope in case a better product in this class comes along.
> 
> Hopefully in the next few weeks I will be happy to post up my thoughts.
> Gordon.


good someone what will tell us how it is and not beat around the bush.:thumb:


----------



## Leemack

That'll be interesting to see


----------



## tfonseca

If you open a marketing book and start reading or take a marketing course, you will remember many many times Zymol and Swissvax brands. They are a perfect example of Luxury brands.

A little thing like mark the price very high, shows to the customer that the product is unique and the customers always like to feel unique. For instance black packaging is associated to luxury, distinction , etc. All small things count...
Of course, the product need to have quality, but quality is just a functionality and it is just the bottom line of the product and the other, let's say "marketing things", are more important to luxury brands.


----------



## CliveP

This is such a subjective subject.
If the question is 'are expensive waxes worth it?' then the answer is purely personal / subjective.
If the question is 'are expensive waxes a rip off?' then perhaps the answer is different.
I keep koi carp, travel to Japan to select them. Would most people think they are worth it? Of course they wouldn't. But I do, so that's the end of the question for me! Wax or car detailing is no different. You pays your money and you take your choice.......

Regards,
Clive.


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## greenwagon

fifty quid for a a tin of wax 

nothing wrong with that some of us have lots of dispaosable income think of the footballer on 30k a week and the factory worker on £300 a week they spend what they have left after lifes essentials bills etc 

Its a hobby some decide to spend it on booze and hookers and some smoke 40 **** a day so if you spend £50 and you get the pleaseure of useing it and it lasts for a year well its a quid a week Bargain :thumb:


some of us spend £450 on a iphone and 30k + on cars and some of us live in mansions with no morgage s or kids and some of us want to spend lots on polish as they think because its expensive therefore it 'must ' be the best even though it probably isnt 

its personal choice there is brand awarness in everything cars ,clothes and even women its just up to the indivudual how much he has and does he think its worth it :thumb:


----------



## Celticking

I have just shopped for wax, I asked opinions in here and looked at the prices from the suppliers.

I went around the £20 mark, but that was my choice. If people want to pay thousands on a wax and can afford it well thats their choice. From what I can see there are quality products that will suit most pockets


----------



## chillly

Nice to hear some views from new members keep em coming fellas:thumb:

Ive also noticed some of the traders have brought out some of there own waxes which i think is great for all. Do they have big factorys where they make there own? anyone?

Saying that i would enjoy going to a wax factory to see how it was made! Anyone been to 0ne in the uk?

Too answer some for example= If A. B .C. company Brought out a new wax next week for lets say £200 for example!! And they claimed it was 4x better than the £50 wax that would interest alot i would guess? But what would your thoughts be if they charged £2000 ??? Also what if it was not 4x better??

Whats your opinions guys???


I like trying new products and want to, But with that said i need to know that what i am buying is true value for money and does exactly what they claim it to do. 

More opinions guys and thanks to all who have posted and brought new thoughts to the post. :thumb:


----------



## justina3

Too answer some for example= If A. B .C. company Brought out a new wax next week for lets say £200 for example!! And they claimed it was 4x better than the £50 wax that would interest alot i would guess? But what would your thoughts be if they charged £2000 ??? Also what if it was not 4x better??

Whats your opinions guys???

I like trying new products and want to, But with that said i need to know that what i am buying is true value for money and does exactly what they claim it to do.

More opinions guys and thanks to all who have posted and brought new thoughts to the post. :thumb:[/QUOTE]

I think you are now moving the gole posts your original quest was just to reduce the price of some of the expensive waxes, now you want the expensive ones to verify there products are worth that much more, which shouldnt be that hard to confirm you just have to dosh out and try it for yourself, of course one man might say its gold another say its junk.


----------



## 03OKH

Saying that i would enjoy going to a wax factory to see how it was made! Anyone been to 0ne in the uk? _*Autoglym, get your name down for the next open day.*_

Too answer some for example= If A. B .C. company Brought out a new wax next week for lets say £200 for example!! And they claimed it was 4x better than the £50 wax that would interest alot i would guess? But what would your thoughts be if they charged £2000 ??? Also what if it was not 4x better?? _*Not an issue for me, havent that kinda money for a wax.*_

I like trying new products and want to, But with that said i need to know that what i am buying is true value for money and does exactly what they claim it to do. _*How will you ever know this for sure until you have tried them yourself though? Reviews and customer testimony can guide you to a degree.*_

End of the day, anyone selling anything, will make X amount of claims, it is up to the customer to decide whether to purchase.

Mr Ratner once said (tongue in cheek) his products were crap, big mistake IIRC.  

Tony


----------



## uruk hai

chillly said:


> I like trying new products and want to, But with that said i need to know that what i am buying is true value for money and does exactly what they claim it to do.


And I think the above statement is at the heart of the matter, I like to try different products that I haven't used before but if the product is above what I consider to be a reasonable price then I will never actually buy it to find out if the resulting finish justifies the cost of it so its a bit of a "catch 22" situation ! However if I buy a product that I consider to be a reasonable price then I will be far more likely to use it more often due to being less conscious of the cost of the product. I think Dodo Juice have got it about right with the panel pots that can be bought cheaply which gives you the chance of trying the products without spending a lot and possibly being left with something you'll never use if it turns out not to be for you.


----------



## Avanti

chillly said:


> I like trying new products and want to, But with that said i need to know that what i am buying is true value for money and does exactly what they claim it to do.


Trying out different products is not value for money, especially if you are paying the full price, couple of uses works out very expensive per application.


----------



## chillly

03OKH said:


> Saying that i would enjoy going to a wax factory to see how it was made! Anyone been to 0ne in the uk? _*Autoglym, get your name down for the next open day.*_
> 
> Too answer some for example= If A. B .C. company Brought out a new wax next week for lets say £200 for example!! And they claimed it was 4x better than the £50 wax that would interest alot i would guess? But what would your thoughts be if they charged £2000 ??? Also what if it was not 4x better?? _*Not an issue for me, havent that kinda money for a wax.*_
> 
> I like trying new products and want to, But with that said i need to know that what i am buying is true value for money and does exactly what they claim it to do. _*How will you ever know this for sure until you have tried them yourself though? Reviews and customer testimony can guide you to a degree.*_
> 
> End of the day, anyone selling anything, will make X amount of claims, it is up to the customer to decide whether to purchase.
> 
> Mr Ratner once said (tongue in cheek) his products were crap, big mistake IIRC.
> 
> Tony


Mr Ratner once said (tongue in cheek) his products were crap, big mistake IIRC.  

Very interesting quote there Tony never thought of that:thumb:


----------



## chillly

Loved this from DoDo. Got to admire there honesty!!

Every product needs improvement, no matter who makes it. And how do you know Destiny has not changed? Do you make it? How do you know Chuck hasn't changed it?

We constantly improve our products and we are pleased to have a policy of openness. Unlike some manufacturers. I'm sure you'd be surprised what some of your favourite waxes have in them. You won't find the real ingredients on the label, unreadable font or not. We don't play their silly games. If you are fussed about what is in a wax, check out the MSDS data. It is freely available.

I have used Vintage and Royale, too. The joke's on you, sadly, but you're entitled to an opinion and I'm not going to be dragged into an argument. You are also factually wrong re durability, beading and sheeting being 'bad'. This is incorrect although you may have a personal opinion that you feel that they are not as good as others. That is a personal opinion, not fact. The only thing 476 does *demonstrably* better than our Supernatural is carry a lower price - it is not made in the same way or with the same ingredients as our waxes, and we admit we can't sell it as low as a mass market manufacturer does in low grade packaging. Honesty! cant beat it


----------



## chrisc

not bad chilly 132 replies now took me ages to read it last night.past half hour on


----------



## RedUntilDead

I am a noob to this game and come here to learn answers to my questions.
I am far from stupid; have a decent income and I like to buy the best I can afford for everthing in life, not just car care.
I have worked in manufacturing at all levels so I dont buy into wild claims and marketing hype.
What I am trying to say is that its great to get decent info from the likes of Dave, Dom ect. When you are looking to take it to the next level and you are looking to see if that expensive wax really does perform like its wild claims.

For instance, Two lads in work had the same car in solid black which I preped the same. One was finished with BOS, the other with colly 476. But with the colly I wanted to see if a glaze would work underneath it so I applied some wet mirror finish prior . Did it work? I wouldnt know but every single person we asked, said this car looked the best (cars parked side by side). The lad who had the BOS said his car looked great but that it didnt look any different than with his own autoglym Hd wax on 
Si


----------



## chillly

Do DoDo have a factory or anyone else in the uk? apart from AG

Anyone??


----------



## Dodo Factory

We make waxes in the UK, as do Autoglym, Bilt Hamber etc.

About half the products out there are relabelled and made by a third party, but I am not sure if it makes too much difference?

For example, Megs products (owned by 3M) are made by a company that doesn't have Megs on the door. I'm pretty sure someone at Megs came up with the formula, but there are reasons why they get made elsewhere.

Does it make a BMW less of a BMW to find it made in Canada or South Africa?

It is largely irrelevant where a product is made or who makes it, as long as:

1) the ingredients are good
2) the recipe/formula is good
3) the manufacturing quality is good

I suppose someone may be upset if they buy product A for 30 GBP and find it is actually the same as product B for 15 GBP with a different label on. But you're paying for the label in many of these cases. Does an Outspan orange or a Fyffes banana deservedly cost a little more than those without a sticker on? If people will pay, then there's a market. Maybe they will argue it's not just a banana as it is carefully selected or transported or whatever.

This kind of badge engineering goes on, but not as often in this industry as you may assume. Most manufacturers realise that a point of difference is required to enable products to sell, so they won't just rely on the label. But it is true that there are products that:

1) Are made by manufacturers in house to their own recipe
2) Are made by third parties to manufacturer specifications (outsourced) to their own recipe
3) Are made by third parties to third party specs to third party recipes and sold under a manufacturer's brand

It is the third class of good that may turn up to be the same, with only the price being different. But buying the same product at a different price is something a free market allows. I could buy a new car at list price tomorrow and I'm sure I could buy the same car at more from a speculator and less from a car supermarket or via some form of deal.

If it's a third party product being sold under another name, it doesn't mean it is bad - it could be very good - it just means it may not be exclusive and available somewhere else cheaper. Then again, there may be an exclusivity deal in place...


----------



## uruk hai

I would be far more likely to buy a product if I knew it was being produced in this country, even if it cost a bit more than a comparable product from outside the U.K. I think every product should by law have to clearly state the country of production as oppose to "made for a supermarket" or "assembled" or "packaged" in GB.


----------



## Frothey

RedUntilDead said:


> For instance, Two lads in work had the same car in solid black which I preped the same. One was finished with BOS, the other with colly 476. But with the colly I wanted to see if a glaze would work underneath it so I applied some wet mirror finish prior . Did it work? I wouldnt know but every single person we asked, said this car looked the best (cars parked side by side). The lad who had the BOS said his car looked great but that it didnt look any different than with his own autoglym Hd wax on
> Si


but you didn't try glaze underneath the BOS - as has constantly been stated the vast majority of the quality of finish is down to the prep. They weren't prepped the same.....


----------



## Avanti

In The Detail said:


> but you didn't try glaze underneath the BOS - as has constantly been stated the vast majority of the quality of finish is down to the prep. They weren't prepped the same.....


I did notice the same 
Unless the poster meant you can achieve a similar effect from using the 2 products vs 1, but then there is also the time element.


----------



## Dodo Factory

It's an interesting point, but do most consumers care?

No one rushes out to buy Supernatural shampoo because it is made in small batches by a bunch of guys in Bishops Stortford. And neither do they stop buying Turtle Wax, Megs etc because it's made abroad. Who says on here - don't buy Collinite and FinishKare as they are not made in the UK? No-one. It isn't front of mind and I'm not even sure whether it is politically correct :lol:

I suppose it's a global economy these days and products come from everywhere. Where do you draw the line... our products will have wax from Brazil, sophisticated chemicals from the US and Germany... yet they're 'manufactured' in the UK.

The real issue is that we have no choice where to get some of these items from.... we can't buy microfibres from Bradford as there's no textile industry in the UK anymore... the microfibres come from the Far East. As do things like polishing machines - even most of the US companies source them from China. They don't make them in Detroit. So I suppose you go where you can to get the right products at the right quality and right price. But it would be nice to have a choice. Luckily, Chinese quality has gone up in recent years and trade-level customer service is generally much higher than that in the UK, so they would get business anyway, but we'd still love the opportunity to 'source British',


----------



## chillly

Ok back on topic'

FELLAS I DONT KNOW ABOUT YOU LOT BUT I WANT TO BRING DOWN THE COST OF WAX TO AN EXCEPTABLE LEVEL.

Loved this comment from dodo.. I suppose someone may be upset if they buy product A for 30 GBP and find it is actually the same as product B for 15 GBP with a different label on. But you're paying for the label in many of these cases. Does an Outspan orange or a Fyffes banana deservedly cost a little more than those without a sticker on? If people will pay, then there's a market. Maybe they will argue it's not just a banana as it is carefully selected or transported or whatever. 

To answer that? Yes!! someone may be upset if they buy product A for 30 GBP and find it is actually the same as product B for 15 GBP with a different label on. Again love your honesty!! And yes there are alot of us with you on this DoDo. Wish i had your way with words. Still think this is a classic.

Loved this from DoDo. Got to admire there honesty!!

Every product needs improvement, no matter who makes it. And how do you know Destiny has not changed? Do you make it? How do you know Chuck hasn't changed it?

We constantly improve our products and we are pleased to have a policy of openness. Unlike some manufacturers. I'm sure you'd be surprised what some of your favourite waxes have in them. You won't find the real ingredients on the label, unreadable font or not. We don't play their silly games. If you are fussed about what is in a wax, check out the MSDS data. It is freely available.

I have used Vintage and Royale, too. The joke's on you, sadly, but you're entitled to an opinion and I'm not going to be dragged into an argument. You are also factually wrong re durability, beading and sheeting being 'bad'. This is incorrect although you may have a personal opinion that you feel that they are not as good as others. That is a personal opinion, not fact. The only thing 476 does *demonstrably* better than our Supernatural is carry a lower price - it is not made in the same way or with the same ingredients as our waxes, and we admit we can't sell it as low as a mass market manufacturer does in low grade packaging. Honesty! cant beat it 

Lots more great comments fellas keep it up. All welcome and all points of view are well recieved :thumb: Open honest Forums love it :thumb:


----------



## -ROM-

chillly said:


> Ok back on topic'
> 
> _*FELLAS I DONT KNOW ABOUT YOU LOT BUT I WANT TO BRING DOWN THE COST OF WAX TO AN EXCEPTABLE LEVEL.*_
> 
> Loved this comment from dodo.. I suppose someone may be upset if they buy product A for 30 GBP and find it is actually the same as product B for 15 GBP with a different label on. But you're paying for the label in many of these cases. Does an Outspan orange or a Fyffes banana deservedly cost a little more than those without a sticker on? If people will pay, then there's a market. Maybe they will argue it's not just a banana as it is carefully selected or transported or whatever.
> 
> To answer that? Yes!! someone may be upset if they buy product A for 30 GBP and find it is actually the same as product B for 15 GBP with a different label on. Again love your honesty!! And yes there are alot of us with you on this DoDo. Wish i had your way with words. Still think this is a classic.
> 
> Loved this from DoDo. Got to admire there honesty!!
> 
> Every product needs improvement, no matter who makes it. And how do you know Destiny has not changed? Do you make it? How do you know Chuck hasn't changed it?
> 
> We constantly improve our products and we are pleased to have a policy of openness. Unlike some manufacturers. I'm sure you'd be surprised what some of your favourite waxes have in them. You won't find the real ingredients on the label, unreadable font or not. We don't play their silly games. If you are fussed about what is in a wax, check out the MSDS data. It is freely available.
> 
> I have used Vintage and Royale, too. The joke's on you, sadly, but you're entitled to an opinion and I'm not going to be dragged into an argument. You are also factually wrong re durability, beading and sheeting being 'bad'. This is incorrect although you may have a personal opinion that you feel that they are not as good as others. That is a personal opinion, not fact. The only thing 476 does *demonstrably* better than our Supernatural is carry a lower price - it is not made in the same way or with the same ingredients as our waxes, and we admit we can't sell it as low as a mass market manufacturer does in low grade packaging. Honesty! cant beat it
> 
> Lots more great comments fellas keep it up. All welcome and all points of view are well recieved :thumb: Open honest Forums love it :thumb:


You seem to be continuing with this statement and thus ignoring 99% of the points that people have made in this thread!

Why don't you give us some examples of waxes, what their current price is, what you think would be an acceptable price and how you arrived at that figure.


----------



## The Cueball

and with that ^^^^

Is it maybe just jealously, because you can't afford something?

Everything in life has a low price and a high price, you pay for what you think is value for money - end of....

Do I think a new car is worth £20K, no, but I do think an older car which is worth £10k is far better value for money, so I buy that one...

Do I think expensive bespoke suits are better than crappy off the peg ones - yes, so I buy them....


:thumb:


----------



## Dave KG

The whole "made in Britain" thing is an interesting point as a lot of consumers do like to see that some of their products are made here... similarly to the "Buy Local" ideas you get at a farmer's market, supporting local trade and the like... It may cost more but there's a feeling of doing good by supporting local trade for example, and in the case of a typical farmer's market, the food is generally much better as well...

But does the "better" extend across all markets, and specifically does it extend into our wax industry... well - I'd venture to say no, it doesn't. Its a nice marketing angle that is for sure, likewise that a product is hand made rather than mass produced is also a nice marketing angle... but this does not make a product a superior performer if we go back to the on-paper performance analysis. So the end of getting the best value for money if one were to measure it purely on performance, mass produced by robots abroad would appear to be winning hands down.

_However_, there is more to the story - and yet again, I will cite Ben's Original Edition wax. Its made by a guy in his kitchen in Devon. It may not quite have the durability of a wax product made in a factory for less, mass produced in A N other country. But it does have the _feel_ of a product that has been made for you, and it feels special - and this form many counts for a lot. I will buy Ben's wax again when my current jar runs out, as to me, it is ideally marketed - it aims square at me, a product that is superb quality, feels like it has been made for me, and isn't surrounded in bull**** marketing hype dreamt up by the greatest the marketing industry can find. Its a proper honest to god product that does what it says, made by a guy that gives a damn about what he produces.

Where a product is produced, how it is produced is yet another marketing angle - its yet another way of differentiating one product from the next in a market flooded by products all clammering for the end users money.

I guess one thing we will all find out of this thread - we buy waxes, and indeed we buy many other products, based on how they are marketed to us. Some of us may consider product performance also, and the means by which we measure this will vary from person to person. But the marketing counts for a lot. I personally go for products not surrounded in hype, promises of this and ludicrous claims of that. I go for honest to god products that work well and don't cost the earth in detailing, but I had to go round the houses and try everything to arrive at this decision for myself and many others will also go on this "voyage of discovery" so to speak  But we will all, like it or not, be "guided" by marketing in our decisions also.

Stepping away from waxes for a moment - why did I buy a Volvo? Not because, as many suggested, that I have bought driving gloves and a flat cap!  Dynamically, on paper performance, driver's car, I should have bought a 3-series. But I didn't. Why... Because the Volvo _appealed_ to me more. Volvo's _marketing appeals to me and the type of person I am._ I like the no-nonsense approach to the interiors, the lack of five million buttons, the superior comfort, I like the "Sweedish" feel. Back to waxes, I like the "just for you" feel of Ben's Original Edition wax. I don't like the feel of others.

Its all marketing, wherever we turn - we are marketed to. Its how we interpret this marketing that is important. And what would be good to see enterring into the wax industry is some science _alongside_ the marketing for those who want it to aid their decisions in product choice.


----------



## catch the pigeo

chillly said:


> WHY NOT AND YOUR RIGHT. Thats another level the rich will always be rich. Great idea thou:thumb: The average cost of a tub of wax costs between £5 and £10 depending on maufacturing and volume of sales. Dont trust me do some of your own homework. i have its an eye opener:thumb:


Chilly can you share some of this research ive asked this question before
but you seem to be ignoring it.
Or do you just want to acknowledge the posts that agree with you:wave:


----------



## -ROM-

catch the pigeo said:


> Chilly can you share some of this research ive asked this question before
> but you seem to be ignoring it.
> Or do you just want to acknowledge the posts that agree with you:wave:


As you say mate, in one breath the guy is asking for opinions on an "open and honest" forum then completely fails to acknowledge any opinions that don't agree with his agenda.

TBH reading his posts he just sounds a bit thick to me as he is completely unable to grasp what others have said. I mean what does he expect to come of this thread? Is Becky from Zymol going to come on and tell him he can buy a pot of Royale for 0.32p and a jammy dodger?


----------



## Aero

Chillly you said,


> I WANT TO BRING DOWN THE COST OF WAX TO AN EXCEPTABLE LEVEL


How will you actually achieve this?
What do you consider an expectable level?

Can you give some answers instead of asking them please.


----------



## chrisc

rmorgan84 said:


> As you say mate, in one breath the guy is asking for opinions on an "open and honest" forum then completely fails to acknowledge any opinions that don't agree with his agenda.
> 
> TBH reading his posts he just sounds a bit thick to me as he is completely unable to grasp what others have said. I mean what does he expect to come of this thread? Is Becky from Zymol going to come on and tell him he can buy a pot of Royale for 0.32p and a jammy dodger?


dont think theres no need for personal comments saying he sounds a bit thick its not on.


----------



## Stew

Why do I feel not only dumber but also less informed after reading this?

You want cheaper wax but you won't say how much it should be, where the research came from etc etc.

You want cheap wax, well you'll have to convince us why it should be cheaper. Not just that you want it to be.


----------



## Avanti

rmorgan84 said:


> As you say mate, in one breath the guy is asking for opinions on an "open and honest" forum then completely fails to acknowledge any opinions that don't agree with his agenda.


I had noticed this from yesterday, but only he can decide how he will respond to the thread , since no suggestion of what he would like to see makes the thread next to pointless.
If every wax came in the same size container and at the same price, how is one going to decide on which to choose?
After spending 1000s on a car, I can't see how some begrudge paying a couple of hundred on products to keep it looking nice, it's not as if wax is a consumable like shampoo (which can be seriously overpriced) .


----------



## Avanti

chrisc said:


> dont think theres no need for personal comments saying he sounds a bit thick its not on.


Perhaps, perhaps not, the OP is not serving himself any justice though by not responding to questions put to him, after all he offered a debate topic and is not participating himself, I only say as I don't want him to end up similarly thought of to another poster that seems to just post 'me too' additions.


----------



## HeavenlyDetail

I have to agree im a touch confused by this statement about wanting to bring wax down to an acceptable level and i simply ask why? please tell us WHY you want waxes bought down , surely if prices are too high people wont buy them which is better for the guys selling sub £50 waxes? 
I cannot understand this at all , im also seeing statements of paying £200 and expecting 4x the look? Some people pay 100x the price for something with only the slightest edge on quality or look exactly as koi man said earlier , im happy for the there to be £20 waxes the same as im happy for there to be £7000 waxes , they will both sell but in different quantities im sure.
As ive said earlier im happier having cheap and expensive waxes , id be bored silly if every wax was £19.99 the same as every watch being under a £100.
I think what you need to answer to the forum is WHY you want them bought down , for starters without being rude and im not what gives anyone the right to state something is too expensive and how good it is because only the consumer will answer that by opening their wallets , id be happeir if this thread was on a gas or electric forum because what comes in my house does a job of powering something there are no variables it powers or it doesnt yet the prices fluctuate horrendously from supplier to supplier yet i personally can see a difference between all my waxes from my own prep work hence i know what i like and what i dont what i will buy and what i wont , i certainly dont judge wax as wax. Im not understanding this thread at all personally , companies have a price , they all think their product is the best , we buy or we dont , job done.


----------



## Frothey

The Cueball said:


> Is it maybe just jealously, because you can't afford something?


It's the same on every forum, whatever the past time. People have long discussions over how the "top" items are a rip-off, waste of money, over hyped, etc - but given the chance the same people would buy them if money was no issue.

If waxes are bad, just look at what audiophiles pay for kit....!!

As has been said, what price is "acceptable" for a wax? Not a dig at Dom/Dodo, but as the OP loves them and their honesty (I think he mentions somewhere!), what does the OP think of Supernatural? Overpriced or not?


----------



## uruk hai

This thread reminds me of the top gear threads that were in the OT section, as soon as someone complains there is are several replys of "dont watch it then" I think the same applys with this thread


----------



## Aero

uruk hai said:


> This thread reminds me of the top gear threads that were in the OT section, as soon as someone complains there is are several replys of "dont watch it then" I think the same applys with this thread


In this case I don't think it does when you have the OP asking for peoples opinions.


----------



## Dave KG

In The Detail said:


> It's the same on every forum, whatever the past time. People have long discussions over how the "top" items are a rip-off, waste of money, over hyped, etc - but given the chance the same people would buy them if money was no issue.
> 
> If waxes are bad, just look at what audiophiles pay for kit....!!
> 
> As has been said, what price is "acceptable" for a wax? Not a dig at Dom/Dodo, but as the OP loves them and their honesty (I think he mentions somewhere!), what does the OP think of Supernatural? Overpriced or not?


Yes - the price of some cables is simply hilarious and the claims of performance more so when read from the perspective of a microwave and radio engineer


----------



## Frothey

and we all know a gold to nickel connection is better than a nickel/nickel one don't we.....


----------



## Avanti

uruk hai said:


> This thread reminds me of the top gear threads that were in the OT section, as soon as someone complains there is are several replys of "dont watch it then" I think the same applys with this thread


Trouble is, it won't be that people stop reading the thread, they reduce attention and interest to what the poster contributes in future, that happened to another contributor .


----------



## Frothey

plus it gives a distorted view as well - if the "anti's" ignored it, then anyone reading it will conclude any wax that costs more than a fiver is a rip off, whereas we all know that top gear is crap these days


----------



## HeavenlyDetail

In The Detail said:


> It's the same on every forum, whatever the past time. People have long discussions over how the "top" items are a rip-off, waste of money, over hyped, etc - but given the chance the same people would buy them if money was no issue.
> 
> If waxes are bad, just look at what audiophiles pay for kit....!!
> 
> As has been said, what price is "acceptable" for a wax? Not a dig at Dom/Dodo, but as the OP loves them and their honesty (I think he mentions somewhere!), what does the OP think of Supernatural? Overpriced or not?


Are you saying my chord hdmi cable for £180 doesnt make my picture 5 x better like sevenoaks hifi told me on my Bush tv? :lol:


----------



## Frothey

of course not Marc - everyone knows digital signals need very high quality cables 

no point asking me about audiophile stuff, I'm clueless and bought B&O :lol:


----------



## HeavenlyDetail

Yea i learnt the hard way , i think its simply an on or off signal?


----------



## Frothey

just tell yourself it's _*more*_ on and off than it would be with a cheap lead


----------



## Avanti

vxrmarc said:


> Yea i learnt the hard way , i think its simply an on or off signal?


There are 10 types of people that understand binary, those that do and those that don't :speechles


----------



## Stew

Digital signals are like waxing cars....

Either on or off.


I want a cheap 911, Can the OP start a thread to get Porche to lower there prices.


----------



## sayloday

I don't know if I would like to bring down the price of wax, as I purchased Purple Haze and then Supernatural for the feel good factor of spending my hard earned cash on things I really wanted.

I first purchased Purple Haze after searching for a wax which didn't leave white residue on black trim. Had used SRP for over a decade but was getting sick of the white that was left on the trim when I was careless. 

Then purchased the SN as a big treat for myself.

If the price of wax dropped too much the waxes I had purchased previously would not be so special to me. Then again I could try some expensive Zymol waxes which I couldn't afford before! 

The only way it can be done is for people to vote with their wallets and only buy cheaper waxes. Which IMO will not work as most of us are all vain and illogical, why else would we spend so much time on the appearance of our cars. I know there are are a lot more important things which I could do with my time, but I don't.

So in reply to the original post "No". 

My final 2p just purchase the wax you want when it is on offer at one of the site supporters sites.


----------



## Avanti

Stew said:


> Digital signals are like waxing cars....
> 
> Either on or off.
> 
> I want a cheap 911, Can the OP start a thread to get Porche to lower there prices.


Well he hasn't succeeded with the waxes, so I would assume a bigger battle with Porsche. Then again isn't Porsche owned by VW now? Suppose this is the cheap 911

VW


----------



## Dave KG

So if my general summary of the 160-odd posts is correct....

The OP has called for a reduction in the price of wax (presumably the more expensive waxes, such as Zymol to name but one), and this call is based on the assertion that the more expensive waxes do not on paper perform any better than a far cheaper wax? Which is, based on my experience a fair enough point to hold, but it as has been discussed in the thread the on-paper performance does not simply account for the price of the wax as people will pay more for a wax for their own reasons...

Is there a concern, as rmorgan addressed in an earlier post, that newbies to detailing may see much more expensive products and _assume_ (with the aid of marketing) that these are much better than their cheaper alternatives and then be disappointed? I think this is part of a concern that is indeed being raised by a few posters in this thread, which hopefully will not get lost in amongst the more, shall we say, revolutionary posts 

Agree or not with the OP, this thread has sparked off an interesting debate and I for one would not call it pointless... the debate in itself is a good one, so long as one takes the value from its discussion - look back at Dom's posts for example, there is value there to be had and those reading it will get a lot of good info and yet another little insight into the wax industry which lets face it is rather shrouded in marketing currently.

There is a danger with threads like this that we can simply get a black and white divide, with no real crossover discussion... Its the discussion in the middle that is of the highest value here, debating the points, analysing why someone would feel that wax is too expensive as you can bet that the OP is not alone in his feelings here.

I dont particularly have a beef against money, if people want to spend money, then that is entirely up to them - it would be a case of pot, kettle and black for me, as I have bought the expensive waxes in the past, and in other walks of life I enjoy fine food, I like my tailored suits for work (I am the only PhD Physicist who turns up to the office and lab in a suit, but its how I like to dress), and I bought a Volvo S60 when I coud have easily bought a Vauxhall Vectra (for example!) or kept the car I had. However, what is also emerging from this thread is a very interesting discussion on marketing and its importance and how much we are all influenced by marketing in our day to day lives. Every company does it, else they would not sell anything! Even the lack of marketing is a form of marketing! However there is also the potential for a knowledge base to be built up regarding the science behing LSPs and their true benefits and how to get the best out of them - some will like this, others wont but I do think that it is important to see a degree of experimental testing (independent) and scientific fact alongside the marketing, _for those who are interested_, as a compliment to it. #16 may prove scientifically on par with Vintage, it may not - and for those who care about this, that will be important. For those that don't, ignore it, continue to use what you want for your own reasons. If it makes you happy, then its all good.


----------



## Guest

Avanti said:


> There are 10 types of people that understand binary, those that do and those that don't :speechles


Took me two mins...
Which is shame on me cause I'm studying binary in college :lol:


----------



## Avanti

Bailes said:


> Took me two mins...
> Which is shame on me cause I'm studying binary in college :lol:


heh heh , I bet there are folk still trying to work it out


----------



## -ROM-

Avanti said:


> heh heh , I bet there are folk still trying to work it out


So there are ten people those who do and those who don't. Does that mean 5 do and 5 don't?


----------



## SteveOC

Bailes said:


> Took me two mins...
> Which is shame on me cause I'm studying binary in college :lol:


You are 'studying' binary in college?

What do people study at university level for 3 years - hexadecimal? 

Steve O.


----------



## Avanti

Dave KG said:


> So if my general summary of the 160-odd posts is correct....
> 
> The OP has called for a reduction in the price of wax (presumably the more expensive waxes, such as Zymol to name but one), and this call is based on the assertion that the more expensive waxes do not on paper perform any better than a far cheaper wax? Which is, based on my experience a fair enough point to hold, but it as has been discussed in the thread the on-paper performance does not simply account for the price of the wax as people will pay more for a wax for their own reasons...
> 
> Is there a concern, as rmorgan addressed in an earlier post, that newbies to detailing may see much more expensive products and _assume_ (with the aid of marketing) that these are much better than their cheaper alternatives and then be disappointed? I think this is part of a concern that is indeed being raised by a few posters in this thread, which hopefully will not get lost in amongst the more, shall we say, revolutionary posts
> 
> Agree or not with the OP, this thread has sparked off an interesting debate and I for one would not call it pointless... the debate in itself is a good one, so long as one takes the value from its discussion - look back at Dom's posts for example, there is value there to be had and those reading it will get a lot of good info and yet another little insight into the wax industry which lets face it is rather shrouded in marketing currently.
> 
> There is a danger with threads like this that we can simply get a black and white divide, with no real crossover discussion... Its the discussion in the middle that is of the highest value here, debating the points, analysing why someone would feel that wax is too expensive as you can bet that the OP is not alone in his feelings here.


Trouble is Dave is that like it or not, you are very influential here (even if that was not your intent) .
What is very dissapointing about the thread is that the OP has opened a debate and then not contributed so it does not hold a good substance (how long is a piece of string?)

A few have asked the OP questions and he has not bothered to acknowledge a reply (I will leave that for him to establish his own character).

IIRC when FK1000p 1st arrived after you gave it the 'nod' there seemed to be a frenzy for the next must have product and colli seemed to be left under the bed, more recently after you have mentioned Megs #16 there seems to be a tilt back to that.
Some folk are not confident to go their own way on product purchases so will get what everybody else seems to have, I suppose I higher price can give the purchaser some form of confidence boost, and not being able to afford something knocks confidence a little.

Just had a quick look in my wax box, spent about £140 on waxes, if all were bought new would be around £280, I suppose I could have bought a tub of BoS and FK2685 and then fight curiosity for the other items.


----------



## uruk hai

Aero said:


> In this case I don't think it does when you have the OP asking for peoples opinions.


Would that not be opinions about the subject the OP wanted to discuss and not a discussion of weather or not people understood the point of the thread and the subject raised within it ?



Avanti said:


> Trouble is, it won't be that people stop reading the thread, they reduce attention and interest to what the poster contributes in future, that happened to another contributor .


That may well be the case but if that's a chance the poster is willing to take does it mean it should attract pointless contributions and personal insults from those who don't agree or see the point of the thread ? If I had a dig at the OP every time I didn't see the point of or agree with a thread I'd could have been banned form the forum by now !


----------



## Avanti

uruk hai said:


> Would that not be opinions about the subject the OP wanted to discuss and not a discussion of weather or not people understood the point of the thread and the subject raised within it ?
> 
> That may well be the case but if that's a chance the poster is willing to take does it mean it should attract pointless contributions and personal insults from those who don't agree or see the point of the thread ? If I had a dig at the OP every time I didn't see the point of or agree with a thread I'd could have been banned form the forum by now !


I don't think I have personally publicly insulted him, between the lines I do think he is rude but that is just my old fashioned opinion .
I think everyone understands the point of the thread (which is not limited to wax) from some of my other posts you will see I'm not afraid to try low cost or rubbished products.
Get a product put a 'for detailers' label on it and the price can be hiked.


----------



## uruk hai

I'm not trying to argue with you and I didn’t say you personally when I said the thread attracted personal insults, sorry if that’s the impression you got ?

I never questioned anyone’s use of products, be they expensive or cheap but what I am saying is that if people as posted think the thread is pointless (I cant be bothered to quote them) why bother contributing and further to that why bother practically rubbishing a topic of conversation because they may not agree with the OP's opinion and the invitation to debate it. If all those who think the debate is completely pointless or not validated by the OP never bothered posting the thread would in all probability have dropped right down the page and would no longer be attracting any posts.

As I said I'm not arguing and perhaps it’s my own failure to understand why people seem to contribute to a thread for no other reason that to be critical of the subject matter in question ?


----------



## Avanti

uruk hai said:


> I'm not trying to argue with you and I didn't say you personally when I said the thread attracted personal insults, sorry if that's the impression you got ?
> 
> As I said I'm not arguing and perhaps it's my own failure to understand why people seem to contribute to a thread for no other reason that to be critical of the subject matter in question ?


I know you were not arguing, I was one of those that have posted that the thread is near pointless, let me explain why again.
The poster asked a question or raised an issue, now had he said something which included a suggested price of what he had in mind then it would hold more value, posters have asked him questions and he has not bothered to answer.
It is easy to see why the thread has strayed as it has, how does he expect to bring the price of wax down, unless of course he is going to create his own and sell it at a knock down price (now there is something I had not thought of)


----------



## uruk hai

Fair enough, perhaps I'm a bit old fashioned in wanting to spare people's feelings and thanks to my job I spend a lot of time reminding myself "If you have nothing good to say then say nothing". Onward


----------



## Avanti

uruk hai said:


> Fair enough, perhaps I'm a bit old fashioned in wanting to spare people's feelings and thanks to my job I spend a lot of time reminding myself "If you have nothing good to say then say nothing". Onward


I'm old fashioned too, and hence why I think the OP is rude for not replying to questions asked, the same phrase you quote is easily applicable to the OP as there is no suggestion of what he deems an acceptable price, then his question is 'meaningless' .
Liken it to walking into a department store and asking 'how much is it?'
How much is what? and then not answering


----------



## caledonia

There has been a great deal written within this post, about wax cost and marketing.

But for me it boils down to a few things.

1. The love of applying a fine coat of protectant to my car after a long and enjoyable day cleaning it.
Very similar to having a desert after a fine meal. The smell, the feel, and self satisfaction all come into play. What price could I put on this??

Next there is the sensible head.

2. Do I personally need to spend large sums of money on something that is going to nurish my body as in food, or can I survive on Mc Donald's.??

All said and done there are very little difference in waxes. They can only be classified into 5 classes.

Vegetable. - Candelilla, Carnauba, Ouricury
Mineral. - Montan, 
Petroleum. - Paraffin, Microcrystalline
Synthetic. - Chemically modified wax
Animal. - Lanolin, Beeswax, Shellac.

These are just a few examples. There are some more but not mentioned.

This has not cover blending and the art in doing so. This is where all the hype marketing and over exuberant claims start. Manufacturers use high fangled word to hype up and possibly confuses the market. Lets be honest here. Ingredients do not change or do the solvents, oils or glazing agents or in some cases silicon's within. People will point out that all waxes are graded in purities and yes this does have an effect of cost. They will also claim that this is a limited run, because of the exotic nature of the product.

But regardless of this has there been any change in the waxes make up.??

I would like to think members on here could make an honest assumption. Weather the product, can deliver what it says and see though all the hype bestowed on it. If they are unsure the fire up a question. They will get many replies as has happened in this post.

Regardless of the high hype associated with any product, in this world. People will always pay the price for the products they wish. There has been many example and explanation on why people buy or have bought expensive waxes. So might be considered belittling other members or just out right snobbery. But all said and done it down to the end user, whether the product is value for money.

I have bought and used expensive waxes and will probably still continue to do so. Why because as an end user I wish to indulge myself. Whether this be snobbery, self gratis faction or simply the enjoyment factor as an end user it my choice.

If I had to be asked and this was my sole concern. If a high end wax delivered more in looks, durability and benefited my car more. Then the answer would be NO.

Which brings me back to the start of my post all the hard work prior to the application. *The prep*. After all the Waxes is the end of that detail, as the desert is the end of the meal and I can look back and enjoy the experience.

I cannot comment or defend the OP for his initial Headline. He still continues to post up and does for what ever reason ignores members question. But in hindsight it might have been a better Headline of Does High-end Waxes Deliver what they say Vs prices?. Instead of trying to drive prices down. Which if I am honest will never happen.
Gordon.


----------



## uruk hai

caledonia said:


> But in hindsight it might have been a better Headline of Does High-end Waxes Deliver what they say Vs prices?. Instead of trying to drive prices down. Which if I am honest will never happen.
> Gordon.


Probably hit the nail on the head there mate :thumb:


----------



## Bigpikle

its a free market, which means companies can sell whatever they want at whatever price they want, and we are FREE to buy it or not...

There are plenty of cheap waxes for people who want to buy cheap waxes and plenty of expensive ones for people that want the benefits (perceived or otherwise...) of buying an expensive wax.

Frankly the entire debate here is utterly pointless as a result. Unless this becomes a controlled market where prices are fixed at a level requiring us to pay too much for a basic commodity, there is no case to answer. Buy whatever you want, or dont, as thats the purpose of a free market  

Next...


----------



## HeavenlyDetail

Bigpikle said:


> its a free market, which means companies can sell whatever they want at whatever price they want, and we are FREE to buy it or not...
> 
> There are plenty of cheap waxes for people who want to buy cheap waxes and plenty of expensive ones for people that want the benefits (perceived or otherwise...) of buying an expensive wax.
> 
> Frankly the entire debate here is utterly pointless as a result. Unless this becomes a controlled market where prices are fixed at a level requiring us to pay too much for a basic commodity, there is no case to answer. Buy whatever you want, or dont, as thats the purpose of a free market
> 
> Next...


My point entirely


----------



## M-Tech

I don't get what the problem is. You want a expensive (overpriced?) wax , you buy it, you don't, then don't buy it.

I saw a really nice watch the other day, I later found out it cost £160k, I'm not going to buy one. Still happy that someone will own a watch like that. I will stick with my £160 Seiko.


----------



## Lowiepete

Quite clearly, everybody was avoiding being collared into making the Turkey 
sarnies by adding a post to this thread. The 1st rule of marketing is... charge 
what the market, I guess that's 'your perceived one', will bear. We're all being
hoodwinked by very high petrol and all other energy prices, so I guess that 
rule holds true... Thankfully, it seems I have a wider choice when it comes to 
car wax!

With Season's Greetings,
Steve


----------



## Guest

rmorgan84 said:


> So there are ten people those who do and those who don't. Does that mean 5 do and 5 don't?


Let me explain..
In binary figures are represented in 0's and 1's.

Now you have a table with figures like this...

*8 4 2 1*

You can go up as high as you want just doubling the last number eg. 16, 32, 64, 128 and so on.

Now you have your table and you add your figure to the table, in this example the firgure is 10...

*8 4 2 1*
0 0 1 0

For every 1 you add the number above it if it's a 0 it dosent matter.

Take 0101 for instance...

*8 4 2 1*
0 1 0 1

Now you don't add an 8 cause it dosent have a 1 underneath it, but you add a four, then you don't add a 2 cause it has a 0 and you add a 1 because theres a 1 underneath the 1. So 4 + 1 = 5

Hope that explains it :lol:


----------



## CliveP

chillly said:


> Ok back on topic'
> 
> FELLAS I DONT KNOW ABOUT YOU LOT BUT I WANT TO BRING DOWN THE COST OF WAX TO AN EXCEPTABLE LEVEL.


You do have a large choice in terms of wax prices - there's some out there for a few pounds in Halfords, and as we know up to £7K plus. If you can't present an argument as to how you get the £7K wax for whatever an acceptable level is, then you do not have an argument. The only thing you can vote with is your feet.

I love koi carp. The best ones are well into five digits. I have a simple choice, pay it or live without them, the koi breeders in Japan have other customers if I don't want them, fact. So it's my choice. Even if no one else bought them, they'd stop bothering breeding them. I think it's exactly the same for the expensive waxes. 
Would I spend £7K on a fish - yes, would I spend £7K on a wax - no. I perceive I can have great wax for a fraction of the price, but I also perceive I cannot get the same quality fish for a fraction of the price. 
The saying 'perception is reality' is so true and a marketing man's best weapon. If someone perceives a wax as fantastic then job done.

Regards,
Clive.


----------



## beany_bot

Here ---> http://www.halfords.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_storeId_10001_catalogId_10151_productId_378007_langId_-1_categoryId_165527

or if you prefer a paste --->http://www.halfords.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_storeId_10001_catalogId_10151_productId_196447_langId_-1_categoryId_165527

Whats the problem......?


----------



## chillly

Dave KG said:


> So if my general summary of the 160-odd posts is correct....
> 
> The OP has called for a reduction in the price of wax (presumably the more expensive waxes, such as Zymol to name but one), and this call is based on the assertion that the more expensive waxes do not on paper perform any better than a far cheaper wax? Which is, based on my experience a fair enough point to hold, but it as has been discussed in the thread the on-paper performance does not simply account for the price of the wax as people will pay more for a wax for their own reasons...
> 
> Is there a concern, as rmorgan addressed in an earlier post, that newbies to detailing may see much more expensive products and _assume_ (with the aid of marketing) that these are much better than their cheaper alternatives and then be disappointed? I think this is part of a concern that is indeed being raised by a few posters in this thread, which hopefully will not get lost in amongst the more, shall we say, revolutionary posts
> 
> Agree or not with the OP, this thread has sparked off an interesting debate and I for one would not call it pointless... the debate in itself is a good one, so long as one takes the value from its discussion - look back at Dom's posts for example, there is value there to be had and those reading it will get a lot of good info and yet another little insight into the wax industry which lets face it is rather shrouded in marketing currently.
> 
> There is a danger with threads like this that we can simply get a black and white divide, with no real crossover discussion... Its the discussion in the middle that is of the highest value here, debating the points, analysing why someone would feel that wax is too expensive as you can bet that the OP is not alone in his feelings here.
> 
> I dont particularly have a beef against money, if people want to spend money, then that is entirely up to them - it would be a case of pot, kettle and black for me, as I have bought the expensive waxes in the past, and in other walks of life I enjoy fine food, I like my tailored suits for work (I am the only PhD Physicist who turns up to the office and lab in a suit, but its how I like to dress), and I bought a Volvo S60 when I coud have easily bought a Vauxhall Vectra (for example!) or kept the car I had. However, what is also emerging from this thread is a very interesting discussion on marketing and its importance and how much we are all influenced by marketing in our day to day lives. Every company does it, else they would not sell anything! Even the lack of marketing is a form of marketing! However there is also the potential for a knowledge base to be built up regarding the science behing LSPs and their true benefits and how to get the best out of them - some will like this, others wont but I do think that it is important to see a degree of experimental testing (independent) and scientific fact alongside the marketing, _for those who are interested_, as a compliment to it. #16 may prove scientifically on par with Vintage, it may not - and for those who care about this, that will be important. For those that don't, ignore it, continue to use what you want for your own reasons. If it makes you happy, then its all good.


Very nicely put Dave!!!! And i thankyou!! Thats it in a nut shell.

I thought this was an open forum to make posts which i did and some of the comments. Speechless to say the least!! My children watch this site and get involved in it along with there dad. and enjoy it!! So thanks to those for your comments.

For those who make wax or are friends of people who make the wax and make lots of money out of it Great. Wish it was me Well done!! No need to post or make nasty comments.

The next time i make a post if some of you dont like it stay out!! As that is what i try to do 99% of the time.

To all who posted thankyou for your comments and i look forward to future debates with you all!!. Cheers Chillly A humble honest DW member

To DAVEKG A very very big thankyou!!

And may i extend to you all and your families a very happy new year


----------



## Avanti

chillly said:


> Very nicely put Dave!!!! And i thankyou!! Thats it in a nut shell.
> 
> *I thought this was an open forum to make posts which i did* and some of the comments. Speechless to say the least!! My children watch this site and get involved in it along with there dad. and enjoy it!! So thanks to those for your comments.
> 
> *The next time i make a post if some of you dont like it stay out!!* As that is what i try to do 99% of the time.
> 
> To all who posted thankyou for your comments and i look forward to future debates with you all!!. Cheers Chillly A humble honest DW member


Those two bits contradict each other, it is a semi open forum and pretty public, debate is from participation of varying views.
The headline topic and how it concluded (to me ) still seems pretty pointless as it never did meet it's objectives


----------



## HeavenlyDetail

chilly mate i appreciate what your saying but to me your hiding behind dave here , all people have asked is if your going to start a thread at least answer the questions as to why , in my opinion it doesnt actually have a point at all , you cant just say drive the price down , people have said why and what to and wth what research and you still havent answered , you cant expect any manufacturer to drop prices because you dont believe their claims you either buy or you dont , if people are happy to see every wax the same visually thats all good then just buy colly 476 and shut the wax section off as theres no point it being there. 
Personally i decide on a product if i like and and am prepared to buy it or can afford it , if i cant afford it and want it i save for it i certainly dont expect them to lower the price because i think its too expensive.


----------



## catch the pigeo

chillly said:


> Very nicely put Dave!!!! And i thankyou!! Thats it in a nut shell.
> 
> I thought this was an open forum to make posts which i did and some of the comments. Speechless to say the least!! My children watch this site and get involved in it along with there dad. and enjoy it!! So thanks to those for your comments.
> 
> For those who make wax or are friends of people who make the wax and make lots of money out of it Great. Wish it was me Well done!! No need to post or make nasty comments.
> 
> The next time i make a post if some of you don't like it stay out!! As that is what i try to do 99% of the time.
> 
> To all who posted thankyou for your comments and i look forward to future debates with you all!!. Cheers Chillly A humble honest DW member
> 
> To DAVEKG A very very big thankyou!!
> 
> And may i extend to you all and your families a very happy new year


I Don't get you this is the 4th time of asking can you show me the research you have done i would really like to see it.
I Don't know anyone that makes wax wish i did but then again if i was mates i
wouldn't expect freebies.
*SO CAN I SEE THIS RESEARCH OR IS IT AS I EXPECT BS*


----------



## Top_Gun

Stew said:


> Digital signals are like waxing cars....
> 
> Either on or off.
> 
> I want a cheap 911, Can the OP start a thread to get Porche to lower there prices.


No, you don't. If the 911 were cheap, you would be more confident in your Z :thumb:

Now, don't tell me that this is thread-hijacking. This is exactly what this thread is about


----------



## Aero

I don't understand your mentality chillly, 19 of your last 22 posts have been in this thread yet you have completely ignored perfectly fair and simple questions.


----------



## truss

this is a dire excuse for a debate! Its goading. 
You say you have researched maufacture rates and prices, then don't respond to the people who ask you about them, it's like having a one way conversation. all you seem to do is quote various replies saying you appreciate their honesty.
A product is only worth as much as someone is willing to pay for it. its the way business goes. im not sure if your bitter that you cannot spend x amount of pounds on a particular wax or if you genuinely believe that zymol (for example) will read this and drop their prices


----------



## Avanti

truss said:


> this is a dire excuse for a debate! Its goading.
> You say you have researched maufacture rates and prices, then don't respond to the people who ask you about them, it's like having a one way conversation. all you seem to do is quote various replies saying you appreciate their honesty.
> A product is only worth as much as someone is willing to pay for it. its the way business goes. im not sure if your bitter that you cannot spend x amount of pounds on a particular wax or if you genuinely believe that zymol (for example) will read this and drop their prices


If this thread is a debate, then the bafta awards for the Jeremy Kyle show 
It's certainly more entertaining than this thread

which started by the OP with 
[FELLAS I DONT KNOW ABOUT YOU LOT BUT I WANT TO BRING DOWN THE COST OF WAX TO AN EXCEPTABLE LEVEL.

Imo wax which is over £50 is not only extortionate but only feel good marteting hype. so what about it should we DO ABOUT IT as a collective? should we carry on from what dodo has started and stated?? its up to you??

Traders and manufactures are the only ones who are going to jump on this post so its up to the humble DW members to sort this out. Your opinions are welcome along with your comments. If your not sure about this have a read of DAVEKGS POSTS and comments. The reason i mentioned Dave is he has alot of respect in the DW community. Of corse there are many others but the list would be to long. Dave hope you dont mind me mentioning your name and posts but you have said many times what i have found out as a nooob. And i thank you for that.

Remember guys its the humble member who pays for the big profits.. cheers chillly a humble honest member of DW ]

and ended with
[Very nicely put Dave!!!! And i thankyou!! Thats it in a nut shell.

I thought this was an open forum to make posts which i did and some of the comments. Speechless to say the least!! My children watch this site and get involved in it along with there dad. and enjoy it!! So thanks to those for your comments.

For those who make wax or are friends of people who make the wax and make lots of money out of it Great. Wish it was me Well done!! No need to post or make nasty comments.

The next time i make a post if some of you dont like it stay out!! As that is what i try to do 99% of the time.

To all who posted thankyou for your comments and i look forward to future debates with you all!!. Cheers Chillly A humble honest DW member

To DAVEKG A very very big thankyou!!

And may i extend to you all and your families a very happy new year ]

With no worthy contribution from the OP other than a press on the thank you button for those that can answer his questions for him 

What has it achieved other than annoyance , a quick lesson in marketing? a change of buying pattern? 
All it has shown me is the OP has failed and failed very quickly


----------



## martyp

I can't see how this can even be a debate? 

No matter what we say in this thread it isn't going to make an ounce of difference to the cost of waxes/sealants anyway. 

Without seeing this 'research' there's even less to go on...


----------



## -ROM-

I'm pressing the big red bull**** button on chilly and his thread.










Click the thanks button if you agree!


----------



## Mullins

Are there any side by side pics around showing a very expensive wax to say colly 915? Is it a case of you get what you pay for?

The mention of waxes at 7 grand, why not get a tin for 15 quid and employ soemone to apply it 3 times a week till you hit the 7k figure :lol:


----------



## catch the pigeo

This is the first time on dw that somebody has really wound me up
if he had just linked the research then the thread would have had .
A diffrent tilt but the op seems to be ignorant or a liar cant work
out which and then he has whinge saying if you dont agree keep out:devil:


----------



## Frothey

Mullins said:


> Are there any side by side pics around showing a very expensive wax to say colly 915? Is it a case of you get what you pay for?
> 
> The mention of waxes at 7 grand, why not get a tin for 15 quid and employ soemone to apply it 3 times a week till you hit the 7k figure :lol:


there are, but pictures will never show much - you need to see them in the flesh to appreciate any difference.

A bit like "correction" shots taken from an angle without direct light


----------



## Avanti

catch the pigeo said:


> This is the first time on dw that somebody has really wound me up
> if he had just linked the research then the thread would have had .
> A diffrent tilt but the op seems to be ignorant or a liar cant work
> out which and then he has whinge saying if you dont agree keep out:devil:


It is the 2nd for me but now the OP makes the other seem very mild indeed 

I'm just glad I still have my tin


----------



## Mullins

In The Detail said:


> there are, but pictures will never show much - you need to see them in the flesh to appreciate any difference.
> 
> A bit like "correction" shots taken from an angle without direct light


So you would say there is a difference then? I have about 1/2 a tin of 915 left that i can keep for my wheels, but the dodo sn seems to be mentioned quite a bit here.


----------



## HeavenlyDetail

In The Detail said:


> there are, but pictures will never show much - you need to see them in the flesh to appreciate any difference.
> 
> A bit like "correction" shots taken from an angle without direct light


I agree...


----------



## uruk hai




----------



## chillly

vxrmarc said:


> chilly mate i appreciate what your saying but to me your hiding behind dave here , all people have asked is if your going to start a thread at least answer the questions as to why , in my opinion it doesnt actually have a point at all , you cant just say drive the price down , people have said why and what to and wth what research and you still havent answered , you cant expect any manufacturer to drop prices because you dont believe their claims you either buy or you dont , if people are happy to see every wax the same visually thats all good then just buy colly 476 and shut the wax section off as theres no point it being there.
> Personally i decide on a product if i like and and am prepared to buy it or can afford it , if i cant afford it and want it i save for it i certainly dont expect them to lower the price because i think its too expensive.


You have raised some very valid points here:thumb:

If and i say if i am so off the mark with my post then why has no wax company stepped in and cleary stated that spending x more on there wax you will get x better results?? Come to think of it i have never seen it stated any where on here. Unless anyone can speak for them??

Lets use Megs 16 for example at "£11.49" and they must be loosing money on it for that price? from a trader on here, Which gets great reviews on here. So lets use me for example. Im looking to buy a new wax and you say to me dont buy the Megs 16 buy the Megs 17 for example at £100 and i say why? You say because it will give me lets say 5x a better shine and 5x longevity which i have never seen on any tub by the way.

I along with others would snapp your hands off!! Im no differant than most on here i want the very best that my money can buy, and will pay it if and i say if there product gives me pro rata in bang for buck.

I also take on board that my post could have been worded differantly. But hey it was in Detailing chat and not the wax section. Maybe i should have taken more time and put it in the wax section. Who knows.

Foot note, anyone fancy doing a poll as to see who thinks what about the wax price???


----------



## beany_bot

This thread still going then?


----------



## HeavenlyDetail

chillly said:


> You have raised some very valid points here:thumb:
> 
> If and i say if i am so off the mark with my post then why has no wax company stepped in and cleary stated that spending x more on there wax you will get x better results?? Come to think of it i have never seen it stated any where on here. Unless anyone can speak for them??
> 
> Lets use Megs 16 for example at "£11.49" and they must be loosing money on it for that price? from a trader on here, Which gets great reviews on here. So lets use me for example. Im looking to buy a new wax and you say to me dont buy the Megs 16 buy the Megs 17 for example at £100 and i say why? You say because it will give me lets say 5x a better shine and 5x longevity which i have never seen on any tub by the way.
> 
> I along with others would snapp your hands off!! Im no differant than most on here i want the very best that my money can buy, and will pay it if and i say if there product gives me pro rata in bang for buck.
> 
> I also take on board that my post could have been worded differantly. But hey it was in Detailing chat and not the wax section. Maybe i should have taken more time and put it in the wax section. Who knows.
> 
> Foot note, anyone fancy doing a poll as to see who thinks what about the wax price???


The thing that has upset people from what i can read though is you still havent answered the direct question , your posting like a politician.

Why should manufacturers post in reality?

I do take your point but life has cheap and expensive and you wont change that...

I dont see Naim or Rotel posting up on the audio forums as to why their amplifiers are £7000 compared to sonys at £800? ive listened to both and for the life of me i cant tell a single difference and ive spent thousands on audio equipment infact my whole setup indoors is denon and silver anniversary wiring yet i could have spent £10,000 more and i could ask why , im never going to hear anything i dont already hear BUT its the price and people are happy to pay it and they do day in day out , you certainly dont see people posting we should bring down the cost of electrical goods because samsung sell theirs for £199.
Im certainly not having a pop here im just putting forward valid discussion as to why i dont agree with this thread. You go on about cheap waxes like collonite 476s etc but personally i think they are awful , i think they smell like th floor of my petrol station and the finish personally with my eyes doesnt compare when ive used it as a benchmark on a car compared to some of my higher end waxes ,id gladly pay £150 for a zymol or a swissvax over this wax any day of the week but thats me my eyes and the glamour attached to it. This is life im afraid , people and companies work hard at mking a high profile of themselves and thats what life is about , everyone strives to have the best product and applies the best marketing strategy to succeed in doing this.
zymol and swissvax for 2 have both lets be honest cornered the highend of the market and rightly so , i mean zymol have just done deal with mclaren have they not , there must be a reason mclaren have done this , i cant see them promoting collonite as there is no glamour attached to it , theyve applied a strategy from day one to work with higher end user and have packaged their products accordingly and i like that , i like the silk bags and the small boxsets , its nice and i personally feel im getting more for a wax , other manufacturers are now attemtping to move into this bracket at a lower price to shift the market somewhat and are succeding in some respects and good for them because everyone has the right to price their goods accordingly. all my mates that come round that look in my fridge never ever pick out a tin of colly they go straight for the silk pouches , they open them get the wax out and smell them , instantly they are drawn to them along with the fantastic wooden box my supernatural comes in a work of art in its entirety , they are immediately sold before even knowing how good the wax is , this to some people is as important as the product itself because they want something more for their money and they get it.
im afraid people in life view things differently and you will never change that , waxes are cheap and expensive , the difference is small yet because we have a choice and were not forced to buy it you can never expect manufacturers to post anything and why should they.
If you want to make a poll thats your perogative but it still wont change anything , id just say go buy no.16 and colly and accept others will have more expensive waxes and not let it bother you in the knowledge that in yours and others opinions they are no better , i beg to differ.


----------



## catch the pigeo

chilly can you show me your research
chilly can you show me your research 
chilly can you show me your research
chilly can you show me your research


----------



## catch the pigeo

Chilly it must be taking ages to download this research 
must be really comprehensive:tumbleweed:


----------



## Avanti

chillly said:


> Foot note, anyone fancy doing a poll as to see who thinks what about the wax price???


You yourself could create the poll, for what it's worth the responses to the thread are a good indication of how the poll may tilt, even though it is not going to change the price of wax


----------



## martyp

catch the pigeo said:


> chilly can you show me your research
> chilly can you show me your research
> chilly can you show me your research
> chilly can you show me your research


I really don't think there is any. Surely if there was he would've posted it many pages back...


----------



## catch the pigeo

martyp i agree but i just want him to say yay or nay


----------



## HeavenlyDetail

First rule of a politician is you never answer the question.


----------



## Judas

CliveP said:


> Would I spend £7K on a fish - yes, would I spend £7K on a wax - no. I perceive I can have great wax for a fraction of the price, but I also perceive I cannot get the same quality fish for a fraction of the price.
> The saying 'perception is reality' is so true and a marketing man's best weapon. If someone perceives a wax as fantastic then job done.
> 
> Regards,
> Clive.


£7k on a fish...... I can get one near me for £2.95 and that includes the batter.......lol


----------



## beany_bot

This thread was answered perfectly well in post no.2 tbh.....


----------



## chillly

james b said:


> ^^ 5-10 quid a pot, not by the time you have manufactured it, packaged it, promoted it, shipped it to a stockiest, they have put there bit on top and then shipped it to you.
> 
> Every one has to make money, time effort and raw product along with every thing else costs money, as dose just surviving in this country as a business, why do you think these companies make wax? for fun? no to make money, if you dont like what they charge, dont buy that brand, its really not a difficult position to be in.
> 
> Its not like council tax or anything, no ones bending your arm behind your back.
> 
> I have a huge range of waxes and sealants, from 10 quid to a couple of grand, if it was for jut my own car, i doubt id use anything over the 100 pound mark if im honest, Super Natural or Swissvax BoS would be me, my clients need and want choice and variety, the higher end waxes do have an edge, like getting that wax glow and the duribility together but would i pay the extra £££ per pot for the very slight edge, probubly not if it was just for my own car or two, but i dont roll around in a 911rs and live in a couple a mill house (i wish i did tho ) if i had that kind of doe id buy it just to have it, but 500+ to me personally (ie out of my own pocket) id have other things id rather than a pot of wax for that doe right now.


Liked this one too!! lots of good info in it. nice one james:thumb:


----------



## PJS

I demand a bloody refund!
No, not on the waxes I have.........the time I've spent on reading this entire thread.
Aside from the usual dissectional postings of Dave KG and Dodo Factory, this thread completely fails on its original premise.

Without trying to be personal, but with an opening gambit of "I want to bring waxes down to an exceptable (acceptable is the correct wording) level", it was never going to succeed, was it?
In fact, like the politician remark above, that's typical of what a politician would say, but then fail to substantiate how it was going to be enacted. Makes for a nice soundbite, but lacks any substance.

Anyway, as Damon pointed out, it's a free market, so no amount of b1tching, yapping, gurning, moaning, or whinging about the prices of some waxes will see them reduced to anything remotely considered "acceptable" - which is wholly dependent upon whose definition you go with.
There's a reason marketing/PR departments exist - it's their job to create the desire for the product(s) their employer produce, etc.

As a result, what we appear to have, is a thread pretending to be something more than a simple case of "I want the more costly waxes, but don't want to take the risk I'll not be bowled over with the results, and feel I've wasted my money".
I guess that is the position a huge swath of us here, are in, but you'll not find us making a call to arms over it, as we fully understand and appreciate reality doesn't always match with perception, and we already vote with our wallets, which hasn't had the slightest effect - everything from BOS and upwards, is still being marketed at the same price.

As for adding a poll - to get the answer we already know - what's the point?
It's not like Z and SV are suddenly going to look at the poll, and think "Christ, we really need to drop our prices by 50% or more!"


----------



## gex23

PJS said:


> I demand a bloody refund!
> No, not on the waxes I have.........the time I've spent on reading this entire thread.
> Aside from the usual dissectional postings of Dave KG and Dodo Factory, this thread completely fails on its original premise.
> 
> Without trying to be personal, but with an opening gambit of "I want to bring waxes down to an exceptable (acceptable is the correct wording) level", it was never going to succeed, was it?
> In fact, like the politician remark above, that's typical of what a politician would say, but then fail to substantiate how it was going to be enacted. Makes for a nice soundbite, but lacks any substance.
> 
> Anyway, as Damon pointed out, it's a free market, so no amount of b1tching, yapping, gurning, moaning, or whinging about the prices of some waxes will see them reduced to anything remotely considered "acceptable" - which is wholly dependent upon whose definition you go with.
> There's a reason marketing/PR departments exist - it's their job to create the desire for the product(s) their employer produce, etc.
> 
> As a result, what we appear to have, is a thread pretending to be something more than a simple case of "I want the more costly waxes, but don't want to take the risk I'll not be bowled over with the results, and feel I've wasted my money".
> I guess that is the position a huge swath of us here, are in, but you'll not find us making a call to arms over it, as we fully understand and appreciate reality doesn't always match with perception, and we already vote with our wallets, which hasn't had the slightest effect - everything from BOS and upwards, is still being marketed at the same price.
> 
> As for adding a poll - to get the answer we already know - what's the point?
> It's not like Z and SV are suddenly going to look at the poll, and think "Christ, we really need to drop our prices by 50% or more!"


Agreed


----------



## catch the pigeo

vxrmarc said:


> First rule of a politician is you never answer the question.


Did somebody ask a question:lol::lol:


----------



## Aero

chillly said:


> Liked this one too!! lots of good info in it. nice one james:thumb:


You have just quoted a post which is on page 2 and 4 days old! no wonder you haven't replied to the questions asked if you are that far behind reading the replies 

To quote Viper from another thread


> For the sake of all involved and for the general well being of DW, can we please draw a line under all of this, let bygones be bygones, and move forward into the New Year with a fresh start?


Chilly's lack of response to questions is pathetic and IMHO it's best this thread is closed, as I don't believe chilly will ever answer a single question.


----------



## HeavenlyDetail

Im reading this now with still no responce from the op and am wondering if there is more to this thread than meets the eye and if there is infact some kind of hidden agenda?..


----------



## chillly

Asking to have this thread closed? its had over 6000 hits so some people are interested in the cost of wax and what extra it gives the look of the paint for the price. Some of you are more than happy with the cost and the little or no benifit which more expensive waxes give you. Unless all the posts i have read stating prep prep prep prep is the key !! And no wax company has stated otherwise yet ?? 

Some people are happy with the cost of some waxes, and so would i be if they enhanced the look of my car by pro rata bang for buck.

I think a poll would be a great idea as its in detailing chat


----------



## HeavenlyDetail

see my post above...


----------



## Strothow

True, some waxes are expensive, but you can get decent stuff, for under £20?

And if you think of the time, that £20 tin, would last, it's not much, over a long time period...


----------



## Aero

vxrmarc said:


> Im reading this now with still no responce from the op and am wondering if there is more to this thread than meets the eye and if there is infact some kind of hidden agenda?..


I've thought this for a while. He isn't so happy now I've called for the thread to be closed hmmm wonder why?

BTW it has had so many hits because of how daft the thread has become.


----------



## HeavenlyDetail

Always is when you wont actually answer a specific question , it has taints all over it and drums in the jungle are sounding out what i suspected.


----------



## chillly

^^^ That was funny as mate nice one!! :thumb:


----------



## chillly

Megs 16 is £11.49 from a trader on here Bet he paid less Than £10 for it to sell to us which i think is great value. Bet it only cost £5.61 to make approx approx.


----------



## martyp

Aero said:


> Chilly's lack of response to questions is pathetic and IMHO it's best this thread is closed, as I don't believe chilly will ever answer a single question.


x2. :thumb:

The thread is beyond any sensible conversation now and it wasn't going to achieve anything anyway...


----------



## VIPER

Well, I've added the offending missing 'o' to the title, which seemed to have added a couple of unnecessary pages to this thread at the beginning .

Now, I've been away from DW since before Christmas and so haven't read any of this thread until someone's asked me to do so (tbh. I've seen these kind of things on here many times before, and so know what the content and conclusion - or lack of - there'd be, so had hoped to avoid trawling through it).

I'm in two minds whether to leave it open or not, as although it's been conducted in a civil manner, and despite having only 'skip read' it, has raised some interesting points, it does appear to me as having run it's course and, as I said earlier, arrived at more or less the same end result as in the past - i.e. nowhere.

I'll have a think about it.


----------



## chillly

Ok Viper i respect your view. But can i add one more thing can anyone who has added to this thread which has opened great debate have no more posts in it including me. so as to let others give there honest opinions on it.?? 

As it seems to be only a handful who dont like it.

Views were my main reasons for posting

I,ll respect your view either way Viper. cheers chillly


----------



## jamesmut

chillly said:


> Megs 16 is £11.49 from a trader on here Bet he paid less Than £10 for it to sell to us which i think is great value. Bet it only cost *£5.61 to make approx *approx.


Sounds like a very specific approximation to me. Is this based on the research you claimed to have done earlier?? or are you just making numbers up?


----------



## Avanti

chillly said:


> Ok Viper i respect your view. But can i add one more thing can anyone who has added to this thread which has opened great debate have no more posts in it including me. so as to let others give there honest opinions on it.??
> 
> As it seems to be only a handful who dont like it.
> 
> *Views were my main reasons for posting*
> 
> I,ll respect your view either way Viper. cheers chillly


The reply seems a cop out, this thread should be closed and in the nomination for the week if not month if not 2009 pointless thread, could have been good, spoilt largely by the lack of thought and reply by the originator, questions asked to and unanswered by the OP.
You want to bring the price down to what acceptable level? 
The answer involves a figure 

Also you say views were your reasons for posting, yet if anyone asks your views that does not count? I think secretly , you want this thread to be closed .


----------



## catch the pigeo

chillly said:


> Ok Viper i respect your view. But can i add one more thing can anyone who has added to this thread which has opened great debate have no more posts in it including me. so as to let others give there honest opinions on it.??
> 
> As it seems to be only a handful who dont like it.
> 
> Views were my main reasons for posting
> 
> I,ll respect your view either way Viper. cheers chillly


Chilly are you related to gordon brown why dont you help the thread and respond to the questions that have been asked of you if your not going to do that whats thepoint of the thread


----------



## -ROM-

Ok i think if in the next hour chilly can produce some of his claimed research that has yet to materialise then the thread should stay open. If not then it should be locked as he's just annoying the **** out of people.


----------



## martyp

rmorgan84 said:


> Ok i think if in the next hour chilly can produce some of his claimed research that has yet to materialise then the thread should stay open. If not then it should be locked as he's just annoying the **** out of people.


:lol:

Well put!


----------



## -Kev-

chilly - if you've done this 'research' then why are you ignoring the requests by people who want to see it??


----------



## Frothey

Mullins said:


> So you would say there is a difference then? I have about 1/2 a tin of 915 left that i can keep for my wheels, but the dodo sn seems to be mentioned quite a bit here.


I would - Colli is (unsuprisingly) a bit more "sealant like" in it's finish, BOS has a warmer glow. Whether it is 10x better only you can decide..... to me there is, the next guy may say no.


----------



## Frothey

chillly said:


> Megs 16 is £11.49 from a trader on here Bet he paid less Than £10 for it to sell to us which i think is great value. Bet it only cost £5.61 to make approx approx.


I bet those figures are way out..... too right he should pay less than a tenner for something retailing at £11.49!


----------



## Avanti

In The Detail said:


> I would - Colli is (unsuprisingly) a bit more "sealant like" in it's finish, BOS has a warmer glow. Whether it is 10x better only you can decide..... to me there is, the next guy may say no.


To me there is a difference too, and probably the ceiling point of waxes for personal use is at a guess £150, after that I suspect that the purchasers of higher cost waxes are purchased for customer's cars :speechless:

After spending a few grand on a car purchase then an extra £100 on wax is very little pro rata, especially when you think what is being charged for dealer longshine options.


----------



## The Cueball

Just to satisfy my own curiosity I have just done a credit search and looked into the financials of two of the big names already mentioned on here.

They are not working to any better margins than other manufacturers, but the fact is that they really don’t look financially stable (I may even offer my services to help them out)!

As far as I can see they are working on margins between 15-22%

Therefore in the example of the 11.49 wax, if this was the sale price to the retailer then the cost is more likely between £8.96 and £9.76.

One of them should actually be in liquidation, and would be if they had to repay their debts now....so not good going for these companies at the moment...

Maybe we will even see a price rise in some waxes...

So, although this has been asked already, where and how has the OP got his figures from and where is your research??

:thumb:


----------



## Eddy

Chillly, please answer this question:

What exactly is the acceptable level you have in mind?


----------



## RaceGlazer

I have read 3/4 of this thread and jumped to the end, with the feeling I could have skipped quite a lot more......
I don't think the OP is in business as no-one can survive on £1.49 mark up on a product, but given that none of the manufacturers on here are driving round in Lamborghinis then there are clearly not super-profits (economists term) in this market. I think the wax market is largely an open market with lots of choice, multiple channels and therefore something for everyone. Just like cars and suits.
If you don't like the price point of a particular product, don't buy it or save up. 
You will also not drive the prices down as a single or group of consumers either as no single wax manufacturer is so exposed to DW that their business would suffer sufficient to change prices if their products were boycotted.
And please tell me how to make wax for £5 a tub.
PS Prices - some of ours are going up tomorrow, so if you want to save a few bob, buy today.
Ultimately, despite some useful input from a few seasoned Dw'ers, a pointless thread which could have been solved with a little more informed research by several posters.


----------



## hutchingsp

Man this is one weird thread and I've not even read most of it.

I don't really understand the issue. I think certain waxes are a crazy price so I don't buy them, just the same as I think Dancing On Ice sucks balls so I don't watch it.


----------



## chillly

Hey fellas research time. My very first wax i tried was colly 476 which impressed me to say the very least! So like many others i was intrigued so i ventured into the wax imporiam of high end waxes which some and some i spoken to promised? well promised something as to what ive never put my finger on it. only to find that it did little or no difference to the finish of the prepped paint! As many of you know this or found this out already

Back swiftly to cost. The chap i bought my colly from lives and works in the states and sells waxes obviously, part time to make a few bob extra, who by the way works for megs in what department or where i did not and would not ask for obvious reasons! So we got onto the price of wax as like all you i was amazed at the price i could buy some certain waxes for, im sure alot of you have done this whilst visiting the states!.

So down to Brass tax and Bang for buck.? What with the £ to $ fluctuation take this as approx at that moment in time please. It worked out at £5.61 a tub with colly 476 just above that, again approx on top due to the dollar rate now. Which is why i quoted £5 to £10 a tub. Now before you say your avin a laugh i did the same thing! so i did the sums along with the price over here which of corse adding approx shipping costs of corse. 

So not to call him a liar but what with the cost he gave me and the cost of those 2 waxes mentioned on lots and lots of sites, Yes the numbers do add up. It was,nt Rocket Science fellas. Like i posted dont take my word for it do some research yourselves. If your still wondering take the prices i gave you and look at the prices of those waxes and do the sums yourselves, like i said it was,nt Rocket Science.

Ask yourselves this do those numbers i used add ip or no. I,ll leave it to you to decide.

And eddy sorry mate Exceptable price for some waxes? ive not got a specific price in mind. I think it would be nice to have an open debate about it in Detailing chat Maybe


----------



## catch the pigeo

chillly said:


> Hey fellas research time. My very first wax i tried was colly 476 which impressed me to say the very least! So like many others i was intrigued so i ventured into the wax imporiam of high end waxes which some and some i spoken to promised? well promised something as to what ive never put my finger on it. only to find that it did little or no difference to the finish of the prepped paint! As many of you know this or found this out already
> 
> Back swiftly to cost. The chap i bought my colly from lives and works in the states and sells waxes obviously, part time to make a few bob extra, who by the way works for megs in what department or where i did not and would not ask for obvious reasons! So we got onto the price of wax as like all you i was amazed at the price i could buy some certain waxes for, im sure alot of you have done this whilst visiting the states!.
> 
> So down to Brass tax and Bang for buck.? What with the £ to $ fluctuation take this as approx at that moment in time please. It worked out at £5.61 a tub with colly 476 just above that, again approx on top due to the dollar rate now. Which is why i quoted £5 to £10 a tub. Now before you say your avin a laugh i did the same thing! so i did the sums along with the price over here which of corse adding approx shipping costs of corse.
> 
> So not to call him a liar but what with the cost he gave me and the cost of those 2 waxes mentioned on lots and lots of sites, Yes the numbers do add up. It was,nt Rocket Science fellas. Like i posted dont take my word for it do some research yourselves. If your still wondering take the prices i gave you and look at the prices of those waxes and do the sums yourselves, like i said it was,nt Rocket Science.
> 
> Ask yourselves this do those numbers i used add ip or no. I,ll leave it to you to decide.
> 
> And eddy sorry mate Exceptable price for some waxes? ive not got a specific price in mind. I think it would be nice to have an open debate about it in Detailing chat Maybe


Is that what you call research the way you have made it sound was that you
had facts and figures as to how much it cost to produce a tub of wax.
When in fact your just going on what it costs over the pond you really are
unbelievable


----------



## Aero

chillly said:


> Megs 16 is £11.49 from a trader on here Bet he paid less Than £10 for it to sell to us which i think is great value. Bet it only cost £5.61 to make approx approx.





chillly said:


> It worked out at £5.61 a tub with colly 476 just above that, again approx on top due to the dollar rate now.


So Megs 16 and Colly 476 cost exactly the same to produce? approx approx


chillly said:


> can anyone who has added to this thread which has opened great debate have no more posts in it including me. so as to let others give there honest opinions on it.??


:speechles


----------



## SteveOC

catch the pigeo said:


> Is that what you call research the way you have made it sound was that you
> had facts and figures as to how much it cost to produce a tub of wax.
> When in fact your just going on what it costs over the pond you really are
> unintelligible


Corrected that for you.

Steve O.


----------



## VIPER

I actually kind of like the fact that these 'mega bucks' waxes exist, even if I'll never get to own them myself, and that goes for supercars, boats, mansion in the country, watches that cost more than a family car, designer clothes....the list goes on and on - because someday I might. 
The aspirational quality of things like this, _should_ be a part of the world we live in imo. That's not suggesting everyone is purely driven by their materialistic aspirations, but let's be honest here, a lot of people are and they work hard to be able to afford the better things in life, if not for themselves than for their partners and children.

I think to try and adopt a philosophy of 'debunking' highly expensive items on the premise that either it only costs £x to manufacture so why is it on the market for £x + £££££s, or that other 'budget' rival products can be had for a fraction of the cost isn't the correct way of looking at it imo. I honestly don't think I'd like to live in a world where everything on sale was priced at exactly the cost of the sum of it's parts or ingredients, and only a predesignated profit percentage for the manufacturer & retailer added on, in order that they can make an acceptable living out of it. This would remove, to a large degree, that exclusivity of a premium product, regardless of what it is, and with it that air of aspiration which accompanies these things and makes our world a slightly better place to live in, purely as a result of them existing.

Or in other words, and as said numerous times already, there are lower priced alternatives in almost every product sector, so the free choice of the consumer is ever present, so just accept that some things are very expensive, for a variety of reasons, and choose from a lower price bracket.


----------



## -ROM-

chillly said:


> Hey fellas research time. My very first wax i tried was colly 476 which impressed me to say the very least! So like many others i was intrigued so i ventured into the wax imporiam of high end waxes which some and some i spoken to promised? well promised something as to what ive never put my finger on it. only to find that it did little or no difference to the finish of the prepped paint! As many of you know this or found this out already
> 
> Back swiftly to cost. The chap i bought my colly from lives and works in the states and sells waxes obviously, part time to make a few bob extra, who by the way works for megs in what department or where i did not and would not ask for obvious reasons! So we got onto the price of wax as like all you i was amazed at the price i could buy some certain waxes for, im sure alot of you have done this whilst visiting the states!.
> 
> So down to Brass tax and Bang for buck.? What with the £ to $ fluctuation take this as approx at that moment in time please. It worked out at £5.61 a tub with colly 476 just above that, again approx on top due to the dollar rate now. Which is why i quoted £5 to £10 a tub. Now before you say your avin a laugh i did the same thing! so i did the sums along with the price over here which of corse adding approx shipping costs of corse.
> 
> So not to call him a liar but what with the cost he gave me and the cost of those 2 waxes mentioned on lots and lots of sites, Yes the numbers do add up. It was,nt Rocket Science fellas. Like i posted dont take my word for it do some research yourselves. If your still wondering take the prices i gave you and look at the prices of those waxes and do the sums yourselves, like i said it was,nt Rocket Science.
> 
> Ask yourselves this do those numbers i used add ip or no. I,ll leave it to you to decide.
> 
> And eddy sorry mate Exceptable price for some waxes? ive not got a specific price in mind. I think it would be nice to have an open debate about it in Detailing chat Maybe


:lol:










<Ladies and gentleman welcome to mastermind, our first contestant is chilly and his specialist subject is rambling utter ****e.>


----------



## catch the pigeo

SteveOC said:


> Corrected that for you.
> 
> Steve O.


:lol:
Chilly you have wound me up so much i might chop the 
goldfishes legs off


----------



## Avanti

chillly said:


> * ive not got a specific price in mind. I think it would be nice to have an open debate about it in Detailing chat Maybe*


Hooray, some kind of response, it could easily be argued that colli 476 is over priced and compared to car pride tough wax, you will not be getting 10x the appearance or 10x the protection even though it costs more than 10x the price.
It was *you* that said want to bring price down to an acceptable level , however as you claim there is no difference between the higher priced waxes and your low cost offering, then I cannot understand why you want those prices to reduce as you will gain nothing


----------



## hutchingsp

chillly said:


> Hey fellas research time. My very first wax i tried was colly 476 which impressed me to say the very least! So like many others i was intrigued so i ventured into the wax imporiam of high end waxes which some and some i spoken to promised? well promised something as to what ive never put my finger on it. only to find that it did little or no difference to the finish of the prepped paint! As many of you know this or found this out already
> 
> Back swiftly to cost. The chap i bought my colly from lives and works in the states and sells waxes obviously, part time to make a few bob extra, who by the way works for megs in what department or where i did not and would not ask for obvious reasons! So we got onto the price of wax as like all you i was amazed at the price i could buy some certain waxes for, im sure alot of you have done this whilst visiting the states!.
> 
> So down to Brass tax and Bang for buck.? What with the £ to $ fluctuation take this as approx at that moment in time please. It worked out at £5.61 a tub with colly 476 just above that, again approx on top due to the dollar rate now. Which is why i quoted £5 to £10 a tub. Now before you say your avin a laugh i did the same thing! so i did the sums along with the price over here which of corse adding approx shipping costs of corse.
> 
> So not to call him a liar but what with the cost he gave me and the cost of those 2 waxes mentioned on lots and lots of sites, Yes the numbers do add up. It was,nt Rocket Science fellas. Like i posted dont take my word for it do some research yourselves. If your still wondering take the prices i gave you and look at the prices of those waxes and do the sums yourselves, like i said it was,nt Rocket Science.
> 
> Ask yourselves this do those numbers i used add ip or no. I,ll leave it to you to decide.
> 
> And eddy sorry mate Exceptable price for some waxes? ive not got a specific price in mind. I think it would be nice to have an open debate about it in Detailing chat Maybe


I've read that several times now and sorry but I still don't understand the point you're trying to make?

If I understand, it's that Collinite and Meguiars should be £5-10 a tub therefore everything else should be?


----------



## catch the pigeo

rmorgan84 said:


> :lol:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> <Ladies and gentleman welcome to mastermind, our first contestant is chilly and his specialist subject is rambling utter ****e.>


:lol::lol::lol::lol:


----------



## Aero

Chillly try some earwax, at least it's cheap and you probably won't notice the difference between earwax and Zymol Royale :thumb:


----------



## VIPER

Aero said:


> Chillly try some earwax, at least it's cheap and you probably won't notice the difference between earwax and Zymol Royale :thumb:


Ted & Dougal managed to fashion some lovely candles out of Father Jack's rather copious amounts of that, so anything's possible


----------



## The Cueball

So, if I get this right, the OP has went from moaning about how some waxes are too expensive, to now in their last post saying that they are now comparing US prices to UK prices???

Why the change in the argument?

And now are we comparing someone who sells wax in the states – part time, against companies in the UK which should be obvious have much higher overheads than a part time, single guy in the states..

Just look at the cost of petrol FFS, never mind rent, rates, utility costs....

Something that has also been missed from the OP’s research is the fact that as well as shipping, you also have to add on VAT and duty to all goods coming in from another country...

Maybe a bit more “research” is required.....

:thumb:


----------



## RaceGlazer

I'm not going to add anything else to this dumb thread except to wish all our customers past and future a happy, healthy and prosperous New Year


----------



## HeavenlyDetail

Well thanks for giving us an indepth answer after all that?


----------



## Aero

Viper said:


> Ted & Dougal managed to fashion some lovely candles out of Father Jack's rather copious amounts of that, so anything's possible


That's true, I knew it was a good idea 

It could be called Planet Chillly DooDoo Wax. I reckon I could get the cost down to 3 magic beans and a tube of smarties :thumb:


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## ryanuk

vxrmarc said:


> Well thanks for giving us an indepth answer after all that?


:lol::lol::lol:


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## rtjc

Aero said:


> That's true, I knew it was a good idea
> 
> It could be called Planet Chillly DooDoo Wax. I reckon I could get the cost down to 3 magic beans and a tube of smarties :thumb:


Jeezo, i havent had a tube of smarties for years! Must remeber to get some :thumb:


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## timmyboy

Showshine said:


> If i was loaded i might try a very expensive wax but i'm not so i can't.
> 
> I think every product group has it's wildcards and expensive items.
> 
> I mean FFS you can buy a last Rolo in Gold for £60 so what next? I wouldn't pay £60 for a pretend chocolate thread


spend £5000 or whatever the the current hyped price is on zym and spend lets say £20 on collinite 476, do the same in depth prep and check out the finish.
if you do a serious durability check on this, as i have with some zym,But not admittedly the £5k one you will notice one major difference. the £20 one will look just as good and last a lot longer than the z one. i havent used the £5000
crap but ive used other z stuff up to about £800 a pot. its a triumph of marketing over substance!!! total con in my opinion, still, feel free to keep buying it, ill stick to other brands!!!!


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## -Kev-

timmyboy said:


> spend £5000 or whatever the the current hyped price is on zym and spend lets say £20 on collinite 476, do the same in depth prep and check out the finish.
> if you do a serious durability check on this, as i have with some zym,But not admittedly the £5k one you will notice one major difference. the £20 one will look just as good and last a lot longer than the z one. i havent used the £5000
> crap but ive used other z stuff up to about £800 a pot. its a triumph of marketing over substance!!! total con in my opinion, still, feel free to keep buying it, ill stick to other brands!!!!


as has been already said, we all know the results come from the prep. the main reason behind owning an expensive wax is in the using of it - the smell, the silk bag it might come in, etc etc


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## ianFRST

please for the love of god lock this thread and let it die :lol:


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## -ROM-

ianFRST said:


> please for the love of god lock chilly up and let him die :lol:


That's a little uncalled for


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## timmyboy

-Kev- said:


> as has been already said, we all know the results come from the prep. the main reason behind owning an expensive wax is in the using of it - the smell, the silk bag it might come in, etc etc


if your happy to pay that kind of dosh to caress a silk bag and smell some tropical smells(and it does smell mighty fine i know) so be it, but my customers wont pay for for this experience. they want a finish and a durability, so i give em much cheaper wax that they can afford, and that i can sell them at a feasible price!! seems to work ok!!!


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## ianFRST

^^ you need to find some customers with deeper pockets then :lol:

you only need to look in the showroom, and see how many cars have a "premium" wax applied. dont see many that have nattys blue on do you


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## Frothey

chillly said:


> It worked out at £5.61 a tub with colly 476 just above that, again approx on top due to the dollar rate now. Which is why i quoted £5 to £10 a tub. Now before you say your avin a laugh i did the same thing! so i did the sums along with the price over here which of corse adding approx shipping costs of corse.


not being funny, but I don't think anyone's surprised at £5.61, other than it being as much as that, I would've thought less.


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## HeavenlyDetail

timmyboy said:


> if your happy to pay that kind of dosh to caress a silk bag and smell some tropical smells(and it does smell mighty fine i know) so be it, but my customers wont pay for for this experience. they want a finish and a durability, so i give em much cheaper wax that they can afford, and that i can sell them at a feasible price!! seems to work ok!!!


and it also works for the upper tier premiun waxes aswell , i cn think of one person who is fully booked for the next 4 months and who has not had a day off in 3 months using only £500+ waxes so it works both ways , im guessing there are other premium detailers on here working on exotics day in and day out who also use expensive waxes and who have customers that wouldnt think twice in paying for them hence the price of waxes is actually balanced correctly and proving people are well prepared to pay this premium and after using some of the expensive waxes compared to cheap ones i notice a difference.

There are detailing websites i see chargeing between £80 and £100 to apply a top end wax to vehicles a premium detail , now the cost of this wax to them in all frankness if paying lets say £2000 for the refillable tub is probably a quarter of £100 to apply so thats £75 profit for them as compared to a couple quid for applying a £16 wax. They have to make a living and its not only something the customer is asking for its good business sense for the professional detailer to apply this wax because they can make a bigger profit which is what 95% of detailers do it for to pay the bills and get through this tough time , i dont see a problem in that at all , if he then had to turn round to a customer and state he is only using £16 wax i would be prepared for a customer to actually start querying why its so cheap and personally id look elsewhere. Now we all know there are waxes in the £80 bracket that in my opinion match upto the visuals of the more expensive ones and these are now starting to filter through onto peoples cars with some education but i just dont see the sub £20 waxes doing this with some customers with high end cars.

This is obviously my own opinion and possibly not everyones which i appreciate.

And i agree you may aswell close it , it been proven chilly does not want to answer what everyone has been askin and is quite frankly ignoring it and i can guess why , id be embarrased aswell , i mean the thread is moving along nicely with all these questions being answered


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## VIPER

I think I'll call time on this one, gents. It's been interesting (in parts), but as we'll no doubt have another thread on the same theme in say....a month's time , to avoid them overlapping, I'll let this one slip into the DW archives


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