# What's worse, acidic or alkali wheel cleaners



## Yellow Dave (Apr 5, 2011)

It is commonly considered that acidic wheel cleaners are damaging on most wheel types unless tackling really tough old grime. 

A lot of claimed non acidic cleaners are actually strong alkalis, and the bi weekly used general wheel cleaner I used claimed to be safe is a lot stronger alkali than I thought, I knew it wasn't pH neutral but turns out it's high alkali

Now I know pH isn't everything, as a lot of wax safe pre washes are alkali, but I always keep stock of an acidic wheel cleaners for those never touched wheels

So what's worse? I've never witnessed any damage myself I guess as typically used in moderation


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## TOGWT (Oct 26, 2005)

Either a high acid or alkali may cause damage, although most people associate 'acid' as being corrosive, but be cognizant a highly alkaline product can do as much surface damage.

This list is not up to date, but will give an indication of wheel cleaner pH values -

Wheel cleaner pH comparisons
•	Amazing Roll-Off (pH 14.0) contains butyl
•	Bilberry is acid free but highly caustic - 13.0
•	Blackfire Gel Wheel and Tire Cleaner (pH 12.5)
•	Eimann Fabrik Hi-Intensity Cleaner (pH of 13.0) contains butyl
•	Griot's Wheel Cleaner (pH 7.1)
•	Menzerna Tire & Wheel Cleaner (pH7.5) detergent-based cleaners with surfactants, wetting agents and oil emulsifiers
•	Meguiar's D140 Wheel Brightener (pH 5.5) contains Ammonium bifluoride SiO2 (ABF)
•	Multi-purpose cleaners (pH between 9.5 and 12.0) 
•	P21S® Bodywork Shampoo (ph 8.0) 
•	P21S® Wheel Cleaner (pH 'controlled' 9.0) Green
•	P21S® Wheel Cleaner (422) Red Gel Formula (pH 9.5)
•	Poorboy's Spray & Rinse is a professional strength acid-based (pH 3.0) wheel cleaner 
•	Sonax Autopflege Wheel Cleaner full effect (pH 'controlled' 9.5)
Chemical buffers are often used to 'balance or control' the pH (this is partly marketing as a controlled neutral pH 7.0 sounds safer)


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## james_death (Aug 9, 2010)

*As above both can be as bad as one another and hence the draw of ph neutral or as near neutral as possible...

Appreciate the list above...:thumb:*


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## SBM (Jul 4, 2013)

In my, I hasten to add - uneducated - opinion, I would answer that acid would be preferred over alkali. Reasoning for this thought is that going back just a very few years, there were "acid" based wheel cleaners used as a "last resort" when a "Safer" wheel cleaner was proving ineffective. There were even specially made spray bottles that could withstand the corrosive acid content. 

Ben


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## 20vKarlos (Aug 8, 2009)

Depends on the ingredients


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## adjones (Apr 24, 2013)

Is it hydrochloric acid (nasty) or citric acid (not nasty)? Is it sodium hydroxide (smart wheels or AF imperial - nasty) or is it sodium carbonate (not nasty)?

The problem is that detailers assume that an acid is bad but that the strongest cleaner is good. This is why smart wheels wins out time after time - it is a great cleaner but people see it as not an acid, so ignore the fact that it is extremely corrosive and will destroy sensitive finishes, just like brick acid. Try to tell people and they stick fingers in their ears and sing 'la la la'. Intelligent stuff.


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## m500dpp (Feb 17, 2006)

I use Bilberry at 10:1 and only resort to a stronger mix of that or wheel brightener to refurbish other peoples wheels (or the insides of alloys if I do a wheels off clean).

Any strong wheel cleaner is not good IMHO in fact I find Megs APC not a very nice chemical to work with at 4:1 so I only use APC on tyres.


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## Goodfella36 (Jul 21, 2009)

http://www.optimumcarcare.com/articles/WheelCleaningPage50.pdf

Always read the MSDS of every product you use some nasty chemicals in some of these cheaper products and so many people use no safety equipment at all me included in the past until I started reading a lot more in to chemicals carcinogens etc .


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## Spoony (May 28, 2007)

Again as above really it's down to the ingredients as opposed to the black and white acid vs alkali. 

There's much more potentially dangerous chemicals in there. But then that's probably no different to much we use in the house to clean things. 

What we can do is be educated about it and use correct PPE.


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## Yellow Dave (Apr 5, 2011)

I've used autofinesse imperial for a long time with no adverse affects on perfect and damaged alloys. I always new it was alkali just not as high as I have now found out. I've also used recently some pretty aggressive acidic cleaners and again no issues. So just curious if they really are all that damaging as generally considered


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## andystevens (Dec 12, 2011)

So all round who makes the most effective but the least harsh product for cleaning wheels?

What actually does PH stand for? I assume the Poorboys PH 3.0 is the better one from that list?


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## The Doctor (Sep 11, 2007)

There are lots of factors to take into account here. Different types of caustics at different levels that are then diluted at different ratios and the dwell time can also have an impact as well as the outside temperature although wheels should always be cool before cleaning. The ph can be very misleading. You can have something that it ph13 but is actually quite gentle. 

Acids are the same, many variables to think of but tend to have drawbacks over a good Alkali product in that acids can cause wheel nuts to rust quickly etc. and Alkali products will shift more general dirt better such as road film and grease. 

If you really must use a ph balanced £10/500ml product then for it to be really worthwhile you would have to stop using your car in winter as the salt on the road is likely to cause more problems than any good wheel cleaner unless of course you wash your wheels every time you've been out in the car!


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## TOGWT (Oct 26, 2005)

andystevens said:


> So all round who makes the most effective but the least harsh product for cleaning wheels?
> 
> What actually does PH stand for? I assume the Poorboys PH 3.0 is the better one from that list?


P21S Wheel Surface Cleaner

pH

[:Mathematically, pH is the negative logarithm of the activity of the (solvated) hydronium ion, more often expressed as the measure of the hydronium ion concentration]

For example, a pH of 8 is ten times more alkaline than a pH of 7. So it follows that a pH of 10 is 1000 times more alkaline than a pH of 7 (10 x 10 x 10 = 1000).

A pH only refers to hydrogen ion concentration and is only meaningful when applied to aqueous (water-based) solutions. The generally accepted method for the neutralization of acids and bases; stabilizing a high alkaline (pH 7.5+) is to buffer it with an acid (pH 7.5-) Acid will keep reacting with any surface it's applied to if it isn't neutralized by an alkaline product.


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## fatdazza (Dec 29, 2010)

Car chem do a very effective ph neutral wheel cleaner at a very good price. I picked up 5 litres when they did a group buy on here recently.


Also don't get too obsessed ph neutral. Given the ph logarithmic scale it is only the extremes that can cause damage. Ph 3 to ph 10 are pretty harmless.


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## Yellow Dave (Apr 5, 2011)

But autofinesse imperial is pH 13/14 and I've been using it on the same wheels, both bare or gtechniq C5 coated for quite some time and it's caused no issue


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## fatdazza (Dec 29, 2010)

Yellow Dave said:


> But autofinesse imperial is pH 13/14 and I've been using it on the same wheels, both bare or gtechniq C5 coated for quite some time and it's caused no issue


And your dwell time is?

And your dilution is?

And the finish on your wheels is?

Is there any damage to the finish on your wheels?

Etc etc. e:thumb:


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## adjones (Apr 24, 2013)

Yellow Dave said:


> But autofinesse imperial is pH 13/14 and I've been using it on the same wheels, both bare or gtechniq C5 coated for quite some time and it's caused no issue


And a strong acid is unlikely to do damage either. It is really only when you have sensitive finishes or damage. A well maintained powder finish is about as durable as you can get. But alu wheels - caustic or an acid like hcl will cloud them badly. Damaged wheel, That aggressive cleaner will speed up how fast they degrade.

You also have to think about the bits you can't see. There is a lot of metal, not so well protected, around the wheel areas. This is the stuff that you won't see until a mechanic spots it.


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## The Doctor (Sep 11, 2007)

You can have ph 13 and it be safe. ph is only part of a bigger story. Infact i could give you a ph13 product and you could dip a polished bare alloy wheel in it without it doing any harm.


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## Jesse74 (Jul 19, 2008)

TOGWT said:


> Either a high acid or alkali may cause damage, although most people associate 'acid' as being corrosive, but be cognizant a highly alkaline product can do as much surface damage.
> 
> This list is not up to date, but will give an indication of wheel cleaner pH values -
> 
> ...


Darnit Jon, that's exactly what I was going to say


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## AllenF (Aug 20, 2012)

The Doctor said:


> You can have ph 13 and it be safe. ph is only part of a bigger story. Infact i could give you a ph13 product and you could dip a polished bare alloy wheel in it without it doing any harm.


Wouldnt want to spray it in my eye though thats gonna hurt like hell


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## fatdazza (Dec 29, 2010)

AllenF said:


> Wouldnt want to spray it in my eye though thats gonna hurt like hell


Ah, but one might hurt like hell, and the other might hurt like hell while disolving your eyeball.


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