# Paintshield / Ventureshield - Wax or Sealant



## jedi-knight83 (Aug 11, 2006)

Hi.

I've heard in the past that wax will make these films go yellow. I've read more recently that sealants will make the film go yellow.

Where are people getting their information?

I have been looking after a couple of cars with both Venture and Paint shield for a number of years now and have not noticed yellowing with wax or sealant.

I was reliably told that it was instead if a film was left for years on end with no polishing or waxing / sealing at all.

What are the current opinions on here regarding these products and are any of these opinions based on fact or does it just depends what the detailer would rather apply to the car that day!?


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## Exclusive Car Care (Jan 14, 2007)

jedi-knight83 said:


> Hi.
> 
> I've heard in the past that wax will make these films go yellow. I've read more recently that sealants will make the film go yellow.
> 
> ...


I was told this by Tom at PaintShield, that zaino can cause yellowing- the techs at the factory have it on a warn off list for yellowing and discouloration.


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## DE 1981 (Aug 17, 2007)

Ive heard this as well Nathan supposedly Zaino yellows but like you i have never had any probs, i have been looking after an old chaps Merc which had this film applied from new and it still looks as good today as it did when it was applied.

I reckon its one of these myths

Gav


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## Finerdetails (Apr 30, 2006)

my turtle wax colour magic seems to have been ok 

on a serious note, thats not good, dont have any cars with it on, but will watch the thread with interest


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## Exclusive Car Care (Jan 14, 2007)

yellowing would not happen instantly but over a period of time...i will see if I can get Tom to post up something:thumb:


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## DE 1981 (Aug 17, 2007)

Gleamingkleen said:


> I dont think yellowing would happening instantly but over a period of time...i will see if I can get Tom to post up something:thumb:


Agreed but having said that i have avoided using Zaino on this just incase.

Gav


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## Exclusive Car Care (Jan 14, 2007)

Tom will post up something shortly:thumb::thumb:...he says this came direct from the film manufactures in USA so is not a myth


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## jedi-knight83 (Aug 11, 2006)

Gleamingkleen said:


> I dont think yellowing would happening instantly but over a period of time...i will see if I can get Tom to post up something:thumb:


Tom doesn't like me much so I guess he wont be interested in posting on a thread I have anything to do with.

This thread Jay was actually as a result of seeing your post on the 'other' forum today.

I currently use blackfire sealant or vintage wax on filmed cars and haven't seen any signs of yellowing in the almost 3 years I have been looking after them now.

Just wondered what the official line was though and didn't realise that paintshield actually blacklist that product.


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## Exclusive Car Care (Jan 14, 2007)

jedi-knight83 said:


> Tom doesn't like me much so I guess he wont be interested in posting on a thread I have anything to do with.
> 
> This thread Jay was actually as a result of seeing your post on the 'other' forum today.
> 
> ...


like yourself I always wax PPF ....its not all sealants, I guess its something in Zaino that can cause the yellowing.


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## Roy (Jan 17, 2007)

Hi Nathan

I have been told it’s best to avoid anything that has petro chemicals (petroleum distillates) in it. Even some paste waxes are to be avoided. Basically it opens the pores of the film allowing dirt and UV discoloration.

I tend to use Swissvax, so Vintage should be fine. Zaino as far as I concerned is a no no.

Regards, Roy.


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## Racer (Oct 27, 2005)

I work with Ventureshield and none of my clients had that yellowing problem.
I polished the film with a finishing polish like 85rd for removing some installing marks and then waxed, i even use hd cleanse before Z waxes.

No problems and the only i have is the bug one, when they rest several weeks or days its a PITA to remove them...

I know that ventureshield had a new film with clear coat for preventing the yellowing for some time.


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## david g (Dec 14, 2005)

We have just launched an all singing and dancing new quick detailer which is for cars with Paintshield films etc
It has a UV protectant and will prevent the yellowing of the paintshield films etc 

Hope that helps


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## Gleammachine (Sep 8, 2007)

As most of the above, I pretty much always wax over the top of protective film or use a wipe over spray sealant, been looking after a few Aston's with it on for quite a while now and found no adverse effects.


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## Paintshield (Nov 2, 2005)

HI Guys

firstly apologies to Jay for not getting on this thread sooner (lots of stuff going on and it slipped my mind no excuse but I am old duffer you know) 

First off zaino whilst it is a great product does NOT get along with PPF, this is not a BRAND issue with PU films, Clearshield is the exception to this as it is Poly Vinyl in construction rather than Poly Urethane as ALL other film brands are (different issues with Poly Vinyl construction but thats another thread).

Any Product containing Petroleum distillates or other solvents in their composition MAY cause yellowing depending on the chemical composition of the products.

For instance Petroleum distillates are generally a nono as they will cause issues that manifest as yellowing (in truth the film is NOT yellowing but more of that later).

To complicate matters further there are two types of PD (Petroleum Distillates) one is Parrafin Based (Kerosene for our American friends) and the other is naptha based. Only the Kerosene (parrafin based) PD's are the issue Naptha is inert to the film. Unfortunately labelling requirements do NOT require the disclosure of which type is in there (medical treatment is the same) so anthing with a "general" content statement disclosing these should be avoided. Oddly Turtle wax Ice is naptha based and we know that is safe on PPF so we recommend that even though it has petroleumd distillates disclosures on the labelling.

We suggest customers avoid any "PASTE" type waxes as its nigh on a certainty they will contain these (parrafin wax basically) to make it a paste rather than a hard wax (Meguiars Gold Class is such an example).


Let me just say this is no way derogatory to any of the products or product types I am mentioning as they are all fine products. However in the same way that the Tolulene in a Tar remover will destroy Polycarbonate lights (causes cracking) it does not make the product a bad product, just innappropriate for that use.

Ok So what does it actually do the film, well its not turning it yellow per se, these products work in much the same way an astringent works on the skin. They open up the pores and allow contaminents to get in from the atmosphere (carbon from exhaust mainly).

We have had good results in cleaning this up with a product called Westleys Bleche White and if caught early enough, you can get it all out of there. The same is true when this manifests with some films as dulling or colour shift (going grey), its the same cause and effect its just presenting differently.

Sealing the films at installation (which we do) helps to resist this, but some products are so aggressive (to the film) that even this may not work occassionally. Any good film company should cover this under warranty (we do) but they will ask the client (or their detailer to modify the products used on the film, not unreasonably).

On a seperate issue there is an increasing trend to use Autosmart G101 to wash cars with in dealerships, we have done extensive testing with this product now whilst more user friendly than a conventional TFR it will have the SAME effect on the film and the adhesive (will cause yellowing).


What it is best at however, is Vapourising adhesive on film (and I DO mean vapourising) in fact I have it around our shop and its what I use for my pet demonstration on the causes of Orange peel in films 

Put this on the back of Scrap film and you have within SECONDS a clear sheet of plastic with no glue  Obviously if used as a carwash in a diluted form over a protacted period it will destroy the adhesive at the edges leading to edge lift (again should be covered under a decent warranty but best to try and avoid the hassle for all concerned). 


Hope some of that is helpful any other questions stick them up and I will do my best to answer them for you, many thanks to Jay for flagging this to me.

Finally please bear in mind as I said earlier, IT MAKES NO DIFFERENCE whose brand of film is used, any other claim is just hype this a pure chemistry issue, a topcoat or not will not prevent these particular effects as the topcoat will be PU as well to some degree, 3M Scotchguard is probably the most resistent but we have made that do the same (just takes longer)


Cheers


Tom


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## Paintshield (Nov 2, 2005)

david g said:


> We have just launched an all singing and dancing new quick detailer which is for cars with Paintshield films etc
> It has a UV protectant and will prevent the yellowing of the paintshield films etc
> 
> Hope that helps


Dave can you send me some of this for testing, I would like to test this for myself, to date we have found only ONE product we KNOW will work (in the main) I would be interested in testing the efficacy of this product.

XPEL sell a sealant however their first release was innefective (which I told them), they have now revised it but we have yet to test that.

If you can get that to me I will get it on some test film and let you know how it does.

Cheers


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## m0bov (May 2, 2007)

This has come as a surprise to me cos I had VS fitted last month and its advertised as not yellowing and safe for waxing.


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## Paintshield (Nov 2, 2005)

m0bov said:


> This has come as a surprise to me cos I had VS fitted last month and its advertised as not yellowing and safe for waxing.


They ALL are, in truth its not incorrect as in its native state most PU Films on extended testing for UV etc WONT yellow, Film manufacturers use places like the Nevada Desert etc for long term testing of UV stability leaving films on painted panels for years at a time.

However NONE of them have tested their products in general over the years against other products (huge task) so they rely on the experience of those of us in the field.

Unfortunately technical discussions tend to get bushwacked on forums by promoters of one brand or another ( I have had famous exchanges over the last seven years on the subject of Orange peel for example on forums) 

If you are in Linked in you can look up who is in my contacts and you will find the four main players top guys on film structure development in there 

What would help everyone would be if they were more open about all this stuff and release what is known (they never do generally) 

An educated customer base is a good thing imho.

The key is that there should be no warranty exclusions on yellowing as due to it being an environmental thing a client may not realise its an aftercare product thats the cause (until it first happens to them and if the installer is up to speed to explain it) 

I would not concern yourself I am sure if it happened, you would be dealt with appropriately 

Best Wishes


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## m0bov (May 2, 2007)

I use Colly 845 and checked with them:
"The #845 Liquid Insulator Wax contains a naptha solvent"

Gather this is ok?


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## Paintshield (Nov 2, 2005)

m0bov said:


> I use Colly 845 and checked with them:
> "The #845 Liquid Insulator Wax contains a naptha solvent"
> 
> Gather this is ok?


Naptha should be fine as I indicated earlier 

Cheers

tom


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## Beyond_Details (Aug 3, 2010)

I've washed some cars with ventureshields on them, and never yellow'd one. Seems pretty tough, but I agree with Roy; avoid anything with petroleum distillates in it!


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## Dodo Factory (Apr 11, 2007)

Not entirely good advice...

We have done a lot of research into this and chatted extensively to Tom at Paintshield. The problem isn't petroleum distillates in themselves, but the strength of them and how they are delivered. Any solvent that is too strong softens the plastic film (paint is effectively a plastic coating and these solvents can behave like paint thinners!) and allows dirt to be caught in it, giving a yellowing effect.

Some petroleum solvents are actually milder than naptha - and therefore BETTER than naptha for PPF in terms of yellowing.

Also, the time you leave the product on and how much solvent is in the product also makes a difference. Leaving a strong product on for 30 seconds may have little effect, but leave a weak product on for a whole day and there may be an issue. So it is the type of product and the way it is used that also plays a part.

Typically, there are no issues with paste waxes with mild (odourless) solvents in, and water based products are also going to be a safe bet as well. Products with more aggressive/more volatile ie stronger solvents (can you smell the solvent? does it give off a strong smell? this may hint at strength or volatility) may potentially cause issues. But it does depend on the product and the usage.

It is no more accurate to say 'petroleum distillate products yellow PPF' as it is to say 'buses are always red'. Some products - often a liquid sealant with a strong petroleum/paraffinic solvent base - CAN potentially yellow PPF by softening it. But other petroleum/paraffin products will be BETTER to PPF than those using a naptha carrier. You need to pay close attention to what the solvent is exactly, as there are hundreds of variations out there, and usage also plays a part.


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## m0bov (May 2, 2007)

Maybe a IPA wipe down is better to maintain the coating?


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## Dodo Factory (Apr 11, 2007)

IPA doesn't offer any protection... it would need to be a relatively dilute mix as well, to avoid potential solvent issues. But not a bad cleanser, just won't do much for looks (like a glaze) or protection (like wax/sealant). Depends what you mean by maintain, I suppose


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## Paintshield (Nov 2, 2005)

m0bov said:


> Maybe a IPA wipe down is better to maintain the coating?


IPA should be avoided on many films, it works really well on 3M scotchguard (or Scotchcal) for removing swirl marks) under NO circumstances should you use it on other film types unless it has been cleared by the film manufacturer (it will take the gloss on many films).

AS for the Yellowing issue in general Ventureshield/3M have just removed the yellowing aspect of their warranties on Ventureshield film types as they issued a PDF to installers stating the film will yellow (without atributing a cause) I suspect that is not what they meant to say.

What we do know is, as I mentioned earlier on, in general terms PPF is NOT going inherently yellow when this happens. Use of the products types I mentioned or total neglect will alow dirt and unburnt carbons from exhausts to eventually build up in the pores this will make films appear slightly yellow. However this is almost always correctable. I am going to post a thread at some point (once I have processed the pics) showing how to do this fairly easily. It is simplicity itself to bring it back so do not rip it off you are throwing money away.

TFR's are a differrent ballgame however (as I have mentioned before)


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## INWARD123 (Oct 28, 2007)

It depends on the film - we had some on fleet cars at work that were applied online during their build - (Renault Espaces) and they went yellow just with a neutral ph washwax - I no it's not the same as a wax on a film but I thnk it says more about the quality or lack of films on the market


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## Dodo Factory (Apr 11, 2007)

It was a wash-wax product- jammed full of cheap sealant or wax that probably absorbed dirt over time and went yellow... 

Whilst some of these films can and do yellow, people are very quick to judge them and not look at what they are applying. There is a world of difference between a pH-neutral wash that is residue free and a pH-neutral wash-wax! You'd be amazed what some washes have in them.


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## Paintshield (Nov 2, 2005)

Dodo Factory said:


> It was a wash-wax product- jammed full of cheap sealant or wax that probably absorbed dirt over time and went yellow...
> 
> Whilst some of these films can and do yellow, people are very quick to judge them and not look at what they are applying. There is a world of difference between a pH-neutral wash that is residue free and a pH-neutral wash-wax! You'd be amazed what some washes have in them.


Going to uncharacteristically disagree with you slightly here , most films DO NOT turn yellow, they can be MADE to appear that they have turned due to ingress of unnburnt carbons from exhaust into the pores (what colour is engine oil again) otherwise you are spot on as usual 

As I have said on other threads with MOST films it is recoverable, I have posted a link on another thread to whet the appetite before I post a specific how to up on the forum in a day or so here it is again if missed. 

http://www.tintdude.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=60599


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## Paintshield (Nov 2, 2005)

INWARD123 said:


> It depends on the film - we had some on fleet cars at work that were applied online during their build - (Renault Espaces) and they went yellow just with a neutral ph washwax - I no it's not the same as a wax on a film but I thnk it says more about the quality or lack of films on the market


If you are talking about the OEM impact area pieces yeah that stuff can turn as you look at it, but it is completely different in nature (usually) from any of the consumer films.


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## 3M UK (Jul 29, 2010)

Some of you may or may not know that VentureShield is a 3M company and the official manufacturer recommendation for aftercare is to use 3M Performance Finish wax. Use as normal: apply and then wipe off straight away without hazing.


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## Paintshield (Nov 2, 2005)

3M UK said:


> Some of you may or may not know that VentureShield is a 3M company and the official manufacturer recommendation for aftercare is to use 3M Performance Finish wax. Use as normal: apply and then wipe off straight away without hazing.


Actually as you raised the subject of Ventureshield why did you dump the Lifetime warranty and the non yellowing guarantee on that product? given as most of us know the problem is less about film structure and more about Environmental issues (that can be fixed) why did you guys advise installers in that PDF that the Film (ventureshield) will go yellow, without caveats and then as I mentioned dump the warranty??

Cheers

Tom


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## 3M UK (Jul 29, 2010)

Rather than get into a lengthy discussion about issues that have come out of the US and that I don't have full details of...the manufacturer aftercare recommendation is 3M Performance Finish.


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## Paintshield (Nov 2, 2005)

3M UK said:


> Rather than get into a lengthy discussion about issues that have come out of the US and that I don't have full details of...the manufacturer aftercare recommendation is 3M Performance Finish.


So you basically dont know then?

Will these aftercare recommendations prevent the film turning yellow then and if it doesnt would 3M replace the film or would the warranty exclusion appy?

Seems to me that needs some clarification.

For the avoidance of doubt this is what was in the original PDF (which fortunately I downloaded and kept a copy of as it appears to have been removed from the updated version happy to send a copy of the original on if anyone wants it). I may have missed it when I just read the current online version incidentally apologies if I did.

"Q: Does VentureShield™ Paint Protection Film resist yellowing?
A: The film contains UV protectants to counteract harmful ultraviolet rays that can cause yellowing. The film does yellow over time."


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## ResB (Feb 16, 2007)

Paintshield said:


> So you basically dont know then?
> 
> Will these aftercare recommendations prevent the film turning yellow then and if it doesnt would 3M replace the film or would the warranty exclusion apply?


This is a good point and a question I would like an official answer to if I'm honest.

I'm looking into PPF at the moment and would be interested to hear if 3M will warranty the Ventureshield film against yellowing and if they do, will the warranty cover the cost of replacement? By that I mean the product and the labour cost. Also, how long will the warranty run for?


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## 3M UK (Jul 29, 2010)

I'll look into it...the person I need to speak to is on holiday this week so I'll ask when he gets back. As I said I don't have all the details (I can't be expected to know everything about all the 55,000 3M products...) so best get it from the man in the know. Will post up when I have the info.


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## ResB (Feb 16, 2007)

3M UK said:


> I'll look into it...the person I need to speak to is on holiday this week so I'll ask when he gets back. As I said I don't have all the details (I can't be expected to know everything about all the 55,000 3M products...) so best get it from the man in the know. Will post up when I have the info.


Thanks, that would be helpful. There is so much ambiguity about the Ventureshield (PPF) product that I have no idea what is right and what is wrong any more. It would certainly be helpful if the manufacturer and/or 3M would just answer the aforementioned questions with a simple yes or no and include it in their warranty terms, job done. It is from a consumers point of view very simple.

Thanks again, I look forward to hearing what your findings are. :thumb:


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## Dodo Factory (Apr 11, 2007)

Paintshield said:


> Going to uncharacteristically disagree with you slightly here , most films DO NOT turn yellow, they can be MADE to appear that they have turned due to ingress of unnburnt carbons from exhaust into the pores (what colour is engine oil again) otherwise you are spot on as usual
> 
> As I have said on other threads with MOST films it is recoverable, I have posted a link on another thread to whet the appetite before I post a specific how to up on the forum in a day or so here it is again if missed.
> 
> http://www.tintdude.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=60599


Fair enough, Tom. I meant 'some' as in there will probably be some cheaper films used for stone guard duty on wheel arches (small sections no better than sticky backed plastic probably), or some old paint protection film stock floating around, and maybe these can still yellow over time - my point was that in the wash/wax instance it is likely to be the wax residue in the product that was absorbing dirt and 'yellowing' rather than the film itself


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## Paintshield (Nov 2, 2005)

Dodo Factory said:


> Fair enough, Tom. I meant 'some' as in there will probably be some cheaper films used for stone guard duty on wheel arches (small sections no better than sticky backed plastic probably), or some old paint protection film stock floating around, and maybe these can still yellow over time - my point was that in the wash/wax instance it is likely to be the wax residue in the product that was absorbing dirt and 'yellowing' rather than the film itself


NP youre correct some of the OEM parts are cheap and nasty films and can have inherent issues.

Look the main issue here is too many film manufacturers are clueless on the technical aspects of their own products, plus other members of our own industry produce too much BS as they dont understand the product they sell (not surprising when the manufacturer has no clue either).

On that basis one cant blame Detailers or Consumers for being confused on this stuff.

Look one installer from the Ventureshield network has posted a ppicture up of a "competitors work" not ours by the way, you can prove that by looking at the picture and checking the pattern, speaking to Armourfend yesterday its not theirs either (makes one wonder who this competitor is that isnt using the same film incidentally).

Anyhow he proudly proclaims as the film has discoloured, he persuaded the customer to replace the film for clearer ventureshield, apart from being utter nonsense as pretty much all films can be made to do this through neglect (I have documented evidence), this customer paid to replace the kit when ringing me up for a bottle of chemical that costs a tenner, would have sorted this car (I will be proving that when I post the thread up i mentioned).

So I dont know, you tell me how proffessional and competent you are stiffing a client for hundreds of pounds, when a tenner would have fixed the issue.

AS I keep saying dont just rip this stuff off, talk to someone who knows what they are doing with film, call me even if I didnt do the job it doesnt matter, I firmly believe better education is crucial in any industry.

We have done thousands and thousands of cars since 2003 and I havent got lines of cars down Peterborough ring road that have gone yellow or discoloured (I would not still be here if I had).

It really is time to lay these myths on PPF to bed once and for all imho.


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## CleanYourCar (Jan 23, 2006)

Out of interest, wat is it you are saying is in Zaino that will cause yellowing and the warnings not to use it?


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## Paintshield (Nov 2, 2005)

CleanYourCar said:


> Out of interest, wat is it you are saying is in Zaino that will cause yellowing and the warnings not to use it?


The stock advice from one film manufacturer was to not use Zaino on the film as it was implicated as one of a number of products that could cause the pores to open up and allow dirt in caausing it to look yellow.

As I understand it this particular manufacturer ahd requested that Zaino discuss with them (in confidence) the chemical breakdown of the product in order to Identitify the component that might be the issue.

As of today I have not had that advice rescinded nor have I been informed this issue has been resolved.

understand the product is a fine product (as many of them are) there is just an advisory regarding its use on film.

Regards


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## Paintshield (Nov 2, 2005)

And We have just encountered another example of mugging the customer, we just had a competitors customer ring us up, his year old film had gone yellow, he wanted it taking off and replacing, so he went to two other competitors who priced the job for replacement WITH EXACTLY THE SAME RAW MATERIAL!!

He rang us we sent him a bottle of cleaner 

Heres a message to these guys doing this, if you keep this up I will do something I have never done I will name and shame each and every installer that tries to pull a stunt like this on a consumer or detailer on our website and on any forum the moderators approve!!

This has to stop gentlemen it is bad for our industry and is unfair to a consumer, grow up and behave responsibly and stop trying to force business turnover by bad advice, you can bet that that they all read these threads and are aware that you can rectify these issues!!

Lets be blunt where it cant be cleaned and something like a TFR may be the cause then and ONLY then should replacement be considered. In the first instance, it should be considered whether it can be replaced under warranty, when this car was installed it should have been covered by THAT raw material suppliers warranty program (which clearly allows for it to be replaced at another certifed installer) those two guys could have offered to replace under that warranty (even if it couldnt be cleaned), nah its easier to stiff the client I guess <rant over>

Cheers


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## Paintshield (Nov 2, 2005)

When 3M's guy (presumably Dave W) comes on the thread about the warranty issue, perhaps he would like to comment on the incident above, as 3M's take on this kind of behaviour by installers would be helpful I believe.


Cheers


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## ResB (Feb 16, 2007)

I forgot about this! Thanks for the heads up. Do you have anything ********** from the Ventureshield manufacturer as yet? Winter and Gritters are fast approaching?


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## m0bov (May 2, 2007)

Had VS on my car from new, almost a year, I don't wax it and no problem.


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## ResB (Feb 16, 2007)

m0bov said:


> Had VS on my car from new, almost a year, I don't wax it and no problem.


That's good to know. What I'd like to know though if you don't mind is what warranty do you have? Do you have a warranty from 3M/VS for the product and did you get one from the installer also?

Albeit this next statement is irrelevant, it appears you have over 1,160+ posts on a detailing forum and you don't wax your new car?


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## ResB (Feb 16, 2007)

Bump.

Any news from 3M by any chance?


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## ironman (Oct 24, 2009)

Paintshield said:


> IPA should be avoided on many films, it works really well on 3M scotchguard (or Scotchcal) for removing swirl marks) under NO circumstances should you use it on other film types unless it has been cleared by the film manufacturer (it will take the gloss on many films).
> 
> AS for the Yellowing issue in general Ventureshield/3M have just removed the yellowing aspect of their warranties on Ventureshield film types as they issued a PDF to installers stating the film will yellow (without atributing a cause) I suspect that is not what they meant to say.
> 
> ...


Looking forward to and keeping an eye out for the post!!


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## Guest (Nov 17, 2010)

Must admit I am waiting to find out what it is about TFR's (snow foam) and their ingrediants that affect the film.

Are we talking about the caustic rather than the ph neutral (non-caustic) or any tfr?


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## ResB (Feb 16, 2007)

ResB said:


> Bump.
> 
> Any news from 3M by any chance?


Anyone? Well 3M really.


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## Paintshield (Nov 2, 2005)

ironman said:


> Looking forward to and keeping an eye out for the post!!


Posted this on another thread, I would have created a thread on here but posting pics on here defeats me for some reason (Yes I am a web muppet live with it) 

Heres a link to our FAQ's (PPF101) find it through our news section here. http://www.paintshield.co.uk/news.php

If the mods want to lift that and post it on here as a sticky somewhere feel free as long as we are credited 

Basically physical proof of what I have been saying for years and destroys the PPF yellows myth that has been around for about 10 years.


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## Paintshield (Nov 2, 2005)

matt1263 said:


> Must admit I am waiting to find out what it is about TFR's (snow foam) and their ingrediants that affect the film.
> 
> Are we talking about the caustic rather than the ph neutral (non-caustic) or any tfr?


So far I have heard no adverse reactions reported with Snow Foam, The General TFRS we talk about are the caustic ones as well as Autosmart G101.

Hope that helps.

Cheers


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## Gleammachine (Sep 8, 2007)

ResB said:


> Anyone? Well 3M really.


Bump!!!


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## domino (Apr 19, 2010)

i clear bra my skirts on all my cars, and ive always shy'd away from using a sealant on it

if im using a carnauba wax then i will wipe over it

every now and then ill clean it with plexus


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## Paintshield (Nov 2, 2005)

domino said:


> i clear bra my skirts on all my cars, and ive always shy'd away from using a sealant on it
> 
> if im using a carnauba wax then i will wipe over it
> 
> every now and then ill clean it with plexus


Be careful which Film you use Plexus on, some film brands advise to not use it on their film, others say its fine.

Check with the Film manufacturer for advice before use 

Cheers


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## Alan W (May 11, 2006)

Thanks for the very informative link Paintshield. :thumb:

However, I fear it may be removed again! 

Alan W


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## Paintshield (Nov 2, 2005)

Alan W said:


> Thanks for the very informative link Paintshield. :thumb:
> 
> However, I fear it may be removed again!
> 
> Alan W


Was it removed? thought it was my screw up.
Not heard from a Mod that it has violated any rules?

IF so can a mod tell me whats wrong with it?

I was asked by members to post links on this issue on several threads over the last six months, if it is product related I can expand it to show other products as well, as we only supply those as a service (we dont move cleaning products generally)?


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## Alan W (May 11, 2006)

Paintshield said:


> Was it removed? thought it was my screw up.


Your link work fined for me last night but had disappeared this morning. 

Alan W

P.S. You have an enquiry.


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## Paintshield (Nov 2, 2005)

Noted Alan 

Back to the original topic, this kind of thing (Yellowing Discolouration) only generally occurs with extreme neglect of film (or using an inappropriate product) and as we have seen on detailing threads is usually accompanied by similar symptoms on the car (deep Swirl marks Etc Etc).

As people can now see for themselves correcting swirls and scratches on films (Roys thread) and restoring clarity is simply a case of using the appropriate product.

As I keep saying stop ripping this stuff off and use the appropriate cleansing products if you fail to take care of the stuff.

Or as this is a detailing forum  Use decent Waxes and other products recommended by the manufacturer of the raw material, or their installers and prevent this happening in the first place (My preferred route generally speaking).


That being said when all else fails you should have recourse to a sound warranty (Neglect exclusions would generally apply with most suppliers in fairness), which completes the circle of the topics on this thread 

Cheers


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## ResB (Feb 16, 2007)

I should keep people updated I suppose regarding a question I raised earlier in the thread.

Having receive a PM what I am being told is "we offer a 5 year limited warranty on VentureShield material" and that is it.

So, for me, this answers my question. Yellowing is not covered by the Ventureshield Warranty and any replacement and or rectification will not be covered under the warranty terms. Having said this it looks as though yellowing can be rectified. http://www.paintshield.co.uk/paint-protection-film-101.php#update250111

On a slightly different subject but kind of related, it has and still is quite difficult to get a ********** answer from 3M/Venturshield on warranty issues but if you are a Ventureshield installer it appears you get a little more support if things go a little wrong!   http://www.sxl1.com/venture-shield.php


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## ResB (Feb 16, 2007)

Don't need an answer now as I think the cat is out of the bag. I kind of feel for the 3M guys having to promote the Ventureshield product with one arm tied behind their backs. Hense the reason we never got a straight answer. Anyway, it appears they no longer need to keep quiet about it now.

http://video.sacramento.cbslocal.com/global/video/flash/popupplayer.asp?vt1=v&clipFormat=flv&clipId1=5893619&at1=News&h1=Call%20Kurtis:%20Yellowing%20Car&flvUri=&partnerclipid=&rnd=26010744


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## Paintshield (Nov 2, 2005)

ResB said:


> Don't need an answer now as I think the cat is out of the bag. I kind of feel for the 3M guys having to promote the Ventureshield product with one arm tied behind their backs. Hense the reason we never got a straight answer. Anyway, it appears they no longer need to keep quiet about it now.
> 
> http://video.sacramento.cbslocal.com/global/video/flash/popupplayer.asp?vt1=v&clipFormat=flv&clipId1=5893619&at1=News&h1=Call%20Kurtis:%20Yellowing%20Car&flvUri=&partnerclipid=&rnd=26010744


This is an unsurprising development for many of us.

Lifetime warranties in general have always proved to be little more than a scam to be honest.

Over the years it was made plain by 3M that it was their intention to offload the Lifetime warranty <any ethical company would do this>.

It was also made plain to installers that the yellowing warranty was going.

I am intrigued that minnesota has allowed this to get to this point.

The Sorry reality is, that as I have pointed out before too many people in this country mislead consumers about what warranty and back up is provided by a film manufacturer <almost none in any meaningful way>.

As can be seen in that news item, the installer has pretty much been hung out to dry, having twice replaced the film at his cost. The question is is how able is he to do this living on replacement film <it may only be 30 feet of bulk not even a kit> and no revenue for an indefinite period into the future.

The reality is as is evident here not long.

Not sure on California legislation, but here in the UK the installer who sold these lifetime "warranties" is on the hook forever <irrespective what 3M ventureshield do>. Something I have cautioned about for years on various forums and have been soundly attacked for, by the vey installers I have been trying to educate.

One can't blame a film manufacturer for setting their terms of business it is after all their choice.

One can however blame those who delude themselves into an alternative reality and fail to realise the implications of selling these kinds of packages without consediring the long run.

Unfortunately this stuff causes great harm to our industry and it really is time the big boys and individual installers cleaned their act up imho.


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## gally (May 25, 2008)

Interesting read. Paintshield can I ask a few questions if you will.

How will you guys tell what is warranty and what isn't?

What is your stance with warranty on your products now?


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## Paintshield (Nov 2, 2005)

gally said:


> Interesting read. Paintshield can I ask a few questions if you will.
> 
> How will you guys tell what is warranty and what isn't?
> 
> What is your stance with warranty on your products now?


Our warranty is the same as it has been since 2003 and will not be changing.

The only caveat is if a customer takes the choice over a film product we fit to their cars, then I reserve the right to not offer the warranty on THAT choice.

Since 2003 I have carried out independent tests on all films on the market, I know what they will and wont do and what is hype and what isnt.

Consequently ANY raw material we put on a car will carry our warranty, unless a customer insists on a product such as that in the video in which case thats fine, they just have to take ownership of their choice.

At the end of the day the "brand wars" over plastic have become ridiculous in the extreme. Mainly fuelled by Hype if not downright lies.

Our Warranty is and still remains the most exhaustive on the market and as I stated is available on whatever we use as long as the choice is mine 

Hope that

Helps

Btw We still have a none yellowing component and that will never change


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## Paintshield (Nov 2, 2005)

Sorry didnt answer one of your question <naff at multi tasking>

How will we tell what is warranty is a simple but very important question

Typically a manufacturer will cover manufacturing defect only, in that instance THEY are the final arbiter of what constitutes a manufacturing versus installation defect 

Its not hard to see where that can lead 

Frankly all aspects of the install and and supply process should be covered by warranty

Including

Yellowing, Detritus under the film, cutting on the car, damage to paintwork <oem paint only too many rubbish aftermarket paintjobs out there>

Fading, Edge lift, peeling <different issue from edge lift> Cracking <never seen this except on cars with 12 year old installs in Arizona>

And Failure in regular road use, it is designed and sold to protect the paint.

Short of a collission then if it fails it should be replaced imho.

Something we have offered since day one.

Edge Lift and detritus incursions may be installer error <they can occur due to manufacturing defect as well> however they should be incorporated as part of the warranty.

After all the manufacturers train these guys <different subject better not get me started on that> or so they claim.

Therefore they set the standards and should take ownership of the end result imho!

Cheers


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## gally (May 25, 2008)

Thanks for that.

I recently removed 4 year old stuff from mine. Could have been paintshield actually. Previous owner had spent a pretty penny on it.

You can see how much it's moved on as the film was very thick, also a nightmare to remove. The one that I saw recently installed. Think it was a 3m film of some kind was very very good, very thin and almost unoticable on the car. The electric orange colour helped but the point remains.

It's made me more welcoming to the films in general. Before I stuck by the fact that it was no use to me as after detailing you could no longer see the true paint finish, it was mearly a non reflective film and it left me disheartened. 

My rear arches and bumper are covered in stone chips but i'm happy that finish on the paint is top notch.


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## Paintshield (Nov 2, 2005)

gally said:


> Thanks for that.
> 
> I recently removed 4 year old stuff from mine. Could have been paintshield actually. Previous owner had spent a pretty penny on it.
> 
> ...


Probably both 3M products on that Car I reckon, as for the Stonechips, knowing what that paint costs to repair per panel, if you are happy to pay that instead of fitting film then you have my admiration.

We had a Focus St on our fleet in Electric Orange and the repair costs were truly eyewatering 

Cheers


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## gally (May 25, 2008)

Indeed, i'm actually an assessor. So i'm happy with the cost of paint vs the paintshield.

The car that had the film fitted (in kit form, clam, sills, mirrors, lights, bumper) was this.. in Electric Orange...


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## Paintshield (Nov 2, 2005)

gally said:


> Indeed, i'm actually an assessor. So i'm happy with the cost of paint vs the paintshield.
> 
> The car that had the film fitted (in kit form, clam, sills, mirrors, lights, bumper) was this.. in Electric Orange...


Well yes if you are in the trade you wont be paying £800 per panel then <or thereabouts> 

Not a choice Mr Average has 

Dont believe that is a car we did <could be mistaken> but Dont think We have had that in electric orange 

Cheers


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## st3blue (Dec 30, 2006)

Looking at the Paintshield website, several cleaners suggested Xpel Flawless, Duragloss and Wesleys Bleche. Can't seem to find the Xpel Flawless for sale in this country, how much better is this than Duragloss which I can find. Any help appreicated.


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