# [email protected] Keltec and Midlands Car Care Wet Sand Tuition Detail - Edition 30 Golf GTI



## MidlandsCarCare

I've just been lucky enough to spend three days down at KDS Keltec with Kelly and his team, learning how to wet sand with the main aim of removing orange peel. Uniquely, this training was concluded on my very own car - a Golf GTI Edition 30 - with the aim of removing as much of the orange peel in my clearcoat as possible.

This thread shares my thoughts and experiences on the time spent with Kelly, and gives an overview from the perspective of a trainee on KDS's course.

I am also very fortunate to be the first - I have Certificate 0001!!

Day One :

It's not very often I get out of bed at 5am, but I needed to be at KDS for 9am for my wet sanding training, so like an excited child on Christmas morning, I was up bright and early and set on my way. I'd forgotten just how bad the M1 and M25 were and unfortunately arrived 15 minutes late!

Upon arrival at KDS's unit in Gillingham, Kent:


DSC01420 by RussZS, on Flickr


DSC01421 by RussZS, on Flickr

With introductions out of the way (Kelly has a team of 4 including himself), Kelly began to prepare a bonnet which would be the test panel for the first days worth of tuition:


DSC01422 by RussZS, on Flickr

The aim of the first day was to cover the following areas:
-	Use of a Laser Pointer to create a fixed point to assess clearcoat removal rates
-	How to use a PDG effectively, including how to calibrate one correctly
-	The differences between using a DA Sander, working by bare hand and using a block
-	Risks around scorelines, pigtailing and dirt/grit
-	Using compounds and polishes to remove sanding marks and restoring the gloss to the paint

The test panel itself was absolutely ideal - covered in dents, RDS's and crucially orange peel:


DSC01430 by RussZS, on Flickr


DSC01428 by RussZS, on Flickr


DSC01432 by RussZS, on Flickr

It's almost as bad as a new BMW!!:lol:

Here are some pics of the tools we used during the first day:


DSC01435 by RussZS, on Flickr


DSC01436 by RussZS, on Flickr

So we have:
-	PosiTector 6000
-	Mirka DA Sanders and Abralon Discs
-	3M 1200, 1500 and 2000 grade sand paper
-	Meguiars 2500, 3000 and 4000 grade sand paper
-	Sanding Blocks

We set up the laser pointer on a tripod, secured by clay, to create a fixed point to allow us to as accurately as possible assess the removal rate of whatever we were doing. 
Next Kelly showed me how to correctly calibrate the PosiTector 6000:


DSC01448 by RussZS, on Flickr

A bare metal block was used to create a reference point:


DSC01453 by RussZS, on Flickr


DSC01454 by RussZS, on Flickr


DSC01455 by RussZS, on Flickr


DSC01463 by RussZS, on Flickr

Next we tested with a shim:


DSC01467 by RussZS, on Flickr


DSC01468 by RussZS, on Flickr

That's pretty close…

Now on a 125 shim:


DSC01484 by RussZS, on Flickr

With the P6000 appropriately calibrated, Kelly moved on to begin the wet sanding demonstration. The key thing I have learnt about wet sanding is how important cleanliness is. If you catch a single dirt particle between the paper and the panel, the consequences can be severe. We began by flooding the panel, to remove any traces of dirt or dust:


DSC01499 by RussZS, on Flickr

We began with 1500 grit. The paper was put into a bucket with warm water and hand wash (to help with lubricity):


DSC01502 by RussZS, on Flickr

Kelly began wet sanding by hand with 3M 1500


DSC01500 by RussZS, on Flickr


DSC01504 by RussZS, on Flickr

To deomstrate just how fine the 'scratches' from 1500 are, Kelly went over a test section with Lime Prime and Super Natural Hybrid:


DSC01514 by RussZS, on Flickr


DSC01516 by RussZS, on Flickr


DSC01519 by RussZS, on Flickr

Impressive stuff!! However, up close…


DSC01522 by RussZS, on Flickr

It just goes to show how deceiving some photos could be…

Next Kelly showed me how to use a Mirka DA Sander with 2000 grade disc:


DSC01528 by RussZS, on Flickr


DSC01535 by RussZS, on Flickr

Now from certain angles, it would appear that the orange peel has been fully removed. I've seen a couple of threads where this process has been used, and from certain angles it looks perfectly flat:


DSC01533 by RussZS, on Flickr

However up close, at the right angle we can see the peel is still very much there!!


DSC01530 by RussZS, on Flickr

I then had my first go! 4000 Grit Abralon Pad on the Mirka, to refine the finish of the 2000:


DSC01542 by RussZS, on Flickr


DSC01541 by RussZS, on Flickr

I was keen to try the 2000 myself to see if orange peel could be removed on a different part of the test panel:


DSC01548 by RussZS, on Flickr

However again, from certain angles it looks great - very flat:


DSC01551 by RussZS, on Flickr

However, catch the lighting correctly and we can see the peel is still present:


DSC01552 by RussZS, on Flickr

Meanwhile Kelly just off refining the other part of the test panel so that it was all at 4000 grit level:


DSC01560 by RussZS, on Flickr

For fun, we tried P1 via a 4000 Grit Pad…


DSC01562 by RussZS, on Flickr


DSC01565 by RussZS, on Flickr


DSC01569 by RussZS, on Flickr

Not bad!!

However, clearly not perfect… so next Kelly polished the panel up with Scholl S3 and a Scholl Wool Pad via Flex Rotary:


DSC01573 by RussZS, on Flickr


DSC01576 by RussZS, on Flickr

So the top half of his section of the panel was all done by machine (2000 then 4000 as I've seen on here many times) and the bottom part was all done by hand 1500, 2000, 2500, 3000 and 4000 (done properly IMO!).

Using a PDR light, we can see the bottom half of the panel (done by hand)


DSC01584 by RussZS, on Flickr

(Note the dent)

Now the top half, done by machine:


DSC01586 by RussZS, on Flickr

Now we can see that the orange peel has been flattened to an extent, but has not been removed entirely. From my perspective, it was clear to see that sanding by machine was not only very quick but also very easy to do - easier than correcting paint with a rotary certainly! Whilst it did flatten a little, it was beginning to become clear that to remove orange peel correctly and fully, then it needed to be done by hand.
Further pics of the panel:

Top Half (machine)


DSC01590 by RussZS, on Flickr

Low Half (hand)


DSC01593 by RussZS, on Flickr

Then it was my turn….!!!

So, before I started, we took a paint reading:


DSC01597 by RussZS, on Flickr

I started, like Kelly did, with 1500 grit:


DSC01601 by RussZS, on Flickr


DSC01600 by RussZS, on Flickr


DSC01599 by RussZS, on Flickr

Very scary stuff at first! It needed another pass to completely flatten the remaining peel:


DSC01603 by RussZS, on Flickr


DSC01605 by RussZS, on Flickr

Much better… much more even coverage and crucially, the peel is all but removed:


DSC01606 by RussZS, on Flickr

2000 grade was next, then 2500:


DSC01608 by RussZS, on Flickr


DSC01609 by RussZS, on Flickr

You can see the gloss starting to return to the paint at this stage, it becomes far more reflective.


DSC01611 by RussZS, on Flickr

We finished with 3000:


DSC01613 by RussZS, on Flickr


DSC01612 by RussZS, on Flickr

Next I used the Flex/S3/Wool combination to remove the sanding marks:


DSC01614 by RussZS, on Flickr


DSC01617 by RussZS, on Flickr


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## MidlandsCarCare

That was my first practice run, so now we would repeat the process but on the fixed point where the laser pointer is:

First the panel was flooded:


DSC01621 by RussZS, on Flickr


DSC01622 by RussZS, on Flickr


DSC01623 by RussZS, on Flickr


DSC01626 by RussZS, on Flickr

This is after 2 passes with 1500


DSC01634 by RussZS, on Flickr


DSC01638 by RussZS, on Flickr

2000 next:


DSC01639 by RussZS, on Flickr


DSC01643 by RussZS, on Flickr


DSC01645 by RussZS, on Flickr

Then on to 2500:


DSC01646 by RussZS, on Flickr


DSC01647 by RussZS, on Flickr


DSC01651 by RussZS, on Flickr

After 3000 we can really see the gloss starting to return, you also begin to get an appreciation of the final finish you are going to achieve:


DSC01656 by RussZS, on Flickr


DSC01652 by RussZS, on Flickr

So, to summarise, at this stage I had hit the panel with 1500 twice, 2000, 2500 and 3000. We have seen the clearcoat reduce from 134-136 range, down to 128, to a maximum removal of about 6-8 microns. However, we must remember that this paint is rather quite soft, as the next test so aptly demonstrates.
Now it was time to remove the sanding marks, which were very fine, with a machine polisher. To try something different, I suggested we tested this with the Megs MF system (cutting disc and D300) and a Megs G220 DA:


DSC01657 by RussZS, on Flickr


DSC01658 by RussZS, on Flickr


DSC01660 by RussZS, on Flickr


DSC01661 by RussZS, on Flickr

I was expecting this, after all of this wet sanding, to remove about 2 microns or so, however we were both very surprised by this…

DSC01662 by RussZS, on Flickr

So we'd taken off 6-8 from all of that wet sanding, then the same again use the Megs MF system!! I was very surprised by the rate of removal. I worked the panel for 2-3 passes… as recommended.
Next, to test how much we would have removed had we used a Rotary, Wool, S3 and the right technique:


DSC01665 by RussZS, on Flickr

This took it down to 122:


DSC01664 by RussZS, on Flickr

Next Kelly refined with Scholl Orange Spider Pad and S17+:


DSC01669 by RussZS, on Flickr


DSC01668 by RussZS, on Flickr

Then a further set with 3M Yellow Pad and a mix of 3M UltraFina and Extra Fine Compound, to leave:


DSC01672 by RussZS, on Flickr


DSC01673 by RussZS, on Flickr

Final reading of:


DSC01676 by RussZS, on Flickr

This was the end of Day One. I was staggered by the difference in the clarity of the panel, especially given that I'd done it largely myself! The removal rate of the Megs MF system was a bit of an eye opener for me too - I've only tended to use it on harder cars, removing around 3 microns. I'm going to do some further testing on softer paints to see if what we saw here is consistent. The effectiveness of wool surprised me too, and also how very little is actually being removed by the wet sanding process (especially when compared to the MF system). That was a long, but rewarding 12 hours…

Day Two:

Today we would be starting on my Golf! I was feeling quietly confident after doing a good job on the test panel - but as I'd soon discover, it's a lot trickier working on a car with curved panels, when compared to a nice flat bonnet!
My car was shockingly filthy, so would obviously need a thorough cleaning before progressing. Paul, one of Kelly's team very kindly cleaned the Golf for me, whilst Kelly let me have a play with the smaller Mirka sander and looking at RDS removal.
Letting Paul clean my car was a very odd experience for me as I'd not let anyone near my car for the past 5 years. However, as he was one of Kelly's guys, I'm sure it'd be cared for in the highest possible way!


DSC01677 by RussZS, on Flickr


DSC01678 by RussZS, on Flickr


DSC01679 by RussZS, on Flickr

What a shocking state - hardly the best rolling advertisement for me!!:lol:


DSC01686 by RussZS, on Flickr

Back inside, Kelly was busy with his blade creating a load of RDS's for me to remove!


DSC01689 by RussZS, on Flickr

I've seen lots of threads where a Mirka and Sanding discs are used to remove an RDS, so Kelly was keen for me to have a go at this to see how effective this process would be:


DSC01694 by RussZS, on Flickr


DSC01695 by RussZS, on Flickr

2000 disc:


DSC01698 by RussZS, on Flickr

It soon became very evident that wet sanding by machine, due to the firmness of the discs used, was levelling the paint (as expected) and therefore was not very effective at rounding any scratches off. The other point here is that you would be flattening the orange peel to an extent too, so this could look very odd on a very 'peely' surface.
On the taped off area, Kelly showed me how effective a rotary is at rounding RDS's:


DSC01722 by RussZS, on Flickr


DSC01724 by RussZS, on Flickr

Really edging the pad to get the rouding to be as effective as possible:


DSC01725 by RussZS, on Flickr


DSC01729 by RussZS, on Flickr

The scratches were beginning to disappear, but so was the clearcoat!!


DSC01742 by RussZS, on Flickr

Still they were not quite gone, so more cutting with the Orange SP and S3:


DSC01743 by RussZS, on Flickr

He was REALLY working the panel too:

DSC01746 by RussZS, on Flickr


DSC01750 by RussZS, on Flickr


DSC01749 by RussZS, on Flickr

What became clear at this point was that sanding wasn't removing nearly as much clearcoat as I perhaps perceived, and that a lot of us have removed far more removing an RDS (clearly these were very severe examples though!)
We took a couple more pics of the panel and then turned our attention to the Golf:


DSC01796 by RussZS, on Flickr

Please note that's a bare panel, no CG Kore 


DSC01797 by RussZS, on Flickr


DSC01800 by RussZS, on Flickr

Now it was time for this:


DSC01801 by RussZS, on Flickr


DSC01802 by RussZS, on Flickr

It looks well from a distance, but up close…


DSC01806 by RussZS, on Flickr


DSC01808 by RussZS, on Flickr


DSC01810 by RussZS, on Flickr


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DSC01814 by RussZS, on Flickr


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DSC01820 by RussZS, on Flickr


DSC01819 by RussZS, on Flickr

Again, we calibrated the PosiTector 6000:


DSC01824 by RussZS, on Flickr

It was out by a fair bit..so it was calibrated:


DSC01825 by RussZS, on Flickr

Test on the blue Shim (should be 125)


DSC01829 by RussZS, on Flickr


DSC01831 by RussZS, on Flickr

A few more pics of my peel using a PDR light:


DSC01841 by RussZS, on Flickr


DSC01842 by RussZS, on Flickr


DSC01845 by RussZS, on Flickr

We also taped up all panel gaps and put a protective sheet over my engine bay. I'd not considered this previously, but it was to stop the water, which would contain clearcoat, from drying and hardening in my panel gaps!


DSC01846 by RussZS, on Flickr


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## MidlandsCarCare

The worryingly low reading, which was our starting point!!


DSC01850 by RussZS, on Flickr

Laser Pointer setup again to measure removal rates:


DSC01852 by RussZS, on Flickr


DSC01853 by RussZS, on Flickr

Wheel protected too:


DSC01856 by RussZS, on Flickr

Being the kind Gent that I am, I let Kelly do the first panel 


DSC01862 by RussZS, on Flickr


DSC01863 by RussZS, on Flickr

After 1500:


DSC01871 by RussZS, on Flickr

Still 106!!!

2000 next:


DSC01883 by RussZS, on Flickr


DSC01886 by RussZS, on Flickr


DSC01892 by RussZS, on Flickr

2500…


DSC01893 by RussZS, on Flickr


DSC01894 by RussZS, on Flickr


DSC01895 by RussZS, on Flickr

3000:


DSC01899 by RussZS, on Flickr


DSC01900 by RussZS, on Flickr


DSC01904 by RussZS, on Flickr

Scholl S3 and Wool next, to remove the 3000 marks:


DSC01909 by RussZS, on Flickr


DSC01910 by RussZS, on Flickr


DSC01913 by RussZS, on Flickr


DSC01919 by RussZS, on Flickr

Refined next with 3M Yellow system:


DSC01920 by RussZS, on Flickr


DSC01923 by RussZS, on Flickr

Wow… now I'm getting excited (and scared that it's my turn soon!!)


DSC01930 by RussZS, on Flickr

I started on the opposing wing, with 1500:


DSC01935 by RussZS, on Flickr

Whilst Kelly did the bonnet:


DSC01940 by RussZS, on Flickr

I worked through the grades - 1500, 2000, 2500 then 3000, then it was polished up with S3:


DSC01942 by RussZS, on Flickr

The drivers door was next, same process, but we wouldn't be polishing this time - just sanding around the car now, down to 3000, then polishing at the end:


DSC01949 by RussZS, on Flickr

This is a great pic showing the difference in finish between 2500 (on the left) and 3000


DSC01951 by RussZS, on Flickr

That was near the end of Day Two…


DSC01956 by RussZS, on Flickr

Day Three:

Day three was toy day!! I'd asked Kelly about the microscopes I'd seen being used, and the Gloss Meter etc, and they all came out to play!!
We wanted to measure the difference in gloss levels between the sanding stages and show the increase at the end from the work we'd done.
So to begin:


DSC01968 by RussZS, on Flickr

After 1500!!


DSC01969 by RussZS, on Flickr

This also came out!!


DSC01972 by RussZS, on Flickr

It was scary to see how many ligt scratches I had in my paint!! (this area was before sanding!!)


DSC01973 by RussZS, on Flickr

This pic shows was sanding marks look like:


DSC01979 by RussZS, on Flickr

Much, much finer!

Kelly continued to work on the bonnet, leaving me to wet sand on my own, unsupervised!!


DSC01985 by RussZS, on Flickr


DSC01988 by RussZS, on Flickr

After 2000:


DSC01992 by RussZS, on Flickr


DSC01995 by RussZS, on Flickr


DSC01997 by RussZS, on Flickr

Oh dear…


DSC02000 by RussZS, on Flickr


DSC02003 by RussZS, on Flickr

However from the right angle, its not quite so scary:


DSC02001 by RussZS, on Flickr

Working through the grades:


DSC02009 by RussZS, on Flickr


DSC02012 by RussZS, on Flickr


DSC02018 by RussZS, on Flickr


DSC02025 by RussZS, on Flickr


DSC02035 by RussZS, on Flickr

The bonnet was coming along nicely too!


DSC02039 by RussZS, on Flickr

I continued around the car using 1500, 2000, 2500 and 3000:


DSC02051 by RussZS, on Flickr

I was getting excited from seeing the potential on a few panels!!


DSC02054 by RussZS, on Flickr


DSC02055 by RussZS, on Flickr

Kelly kindly did the petrol cap for me!


DSC02058 by RussZS, on Flickr

Roy from Pro Valeting also very kindly popped down to lend a hand with the machine polishing!!!


DSC02059 by RussZS, on Flickr

It's not bad when two of the countries' finest detailers are working on your car for you!!!


DSC02060 by RussZS, on Flickr


DSC02063 by RussZS, on Flickr

Roy and Kelly very kindly followed me around the car removing the sanding marks. I corrected the door myself and Kelly refined it.

Now please consider that due to time constraints, we were unable to complete the entire car, so we only did the top half, of the sides, the entire wings and the bonnet. However, I now know somebody in the Midlands who can finish this off!
For speed, we finished with Carlack 68 NSC (available from CYC) and GTechniq C2, which wasspritzed on.

Here are a couple of finished shots. Kelly has a lot more on his camera, which give a better representation of the amazing finish we managed to achieve here between us.


DSC02066 by RussZS, on Flickr


DSC02067 by RussZS, on Flickr


DSC02075 by RussZS, on Flickr


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## MidlandsCarCare

DSC_0017 by RussZS, on Flickr


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DSC_0014 by RussZS, on Flickr

What an amazing three days. I'd like to express my deepest and sincerest thanks to Kelly and his team (Paul, Cons and Tracey) for their wonderful hospitality and time. They are a great bunch. I also have been astounded by Kelly's detailing skills and knowledge of paint and all things detailing. He really is up there with the very best. I've never seen anyone handle a rotary with such skill and fluidity. I consider myself to be very good, but he has shown I can still learn more in terms of correcting more effectively in a shorter space of time - I'm going back for a bit more tuition next year. I've seen a lot of people polish, but nobody quite like this, and I need to learn in this way too.
My car looks incredible, and it's so very rewarding knowing that I have done a lot of it myself. I could have never got it to look this good with a rotary alone. Swirl removal and jewelling can only take a finish so far. The increase in reflectivity and clarity you get from removing the orange peel is nothing short of breathtaking and I'd recommend it to anyone. I think the key point to remember is that on my car, we were removing as little as 6-8 microns to achieve this finish. The Megs MF system took off just as many just removing the 4000 grit marks, and we took off 15-20 removing an RDS - these are things detailers are doing every day all over the world. Wet sanding isn't nearly as scary as it looks. Clearly it won't be for everybody and won't be suitable for every car, but we should remember that we are only removing the 'high points' in the clearcoat and making it perfectly flat. Very little of the 'base' is actually removed at all.

I'd also like to say thank you to Roy - without Roy we would have struggled to finish it in time, and I'd still have a very swirly roof. Thanks as ever Roy, a true Gent.
If you managed to read it all - then thank you. I know I will have missed some key points and would be happy to answer any questions where I can. Kelly will also be doing a thread from his own perspective (and with more more professional photos lol!)

This is the money shot for me!


DSC02098 by RussZS, on Flickr

Russ - Midlands Car Care

Midlands Car Care Facebook Page


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## MidlandsCarCare

Oh and of course, not forgetting:










A few more pics from Kelly's set:


DSC_0006 by RussZS, on Flickr


DSC_0005 by RussZS, on Flickr

and how cool is this one????


DSC_0010 by RussZS, on Flickr


DSC_0009 by RussZS, on Flickr

Oh and you HAVE to see Kelly's M3 in the flesh..

I've seen a HD Video of it in the Sun and it's INCREDIBLE!!

Here are a few pics to get an idea....

Wheels by Lepsons:


DSC01527 by RussZS, on Flickr


DSC01525 by RussZS, on Flickr


DSC01524 by RussZS, on Flickr


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## matzagrin

Great topic, congrats!


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## Scrim-1-

Pretty in depth stuff Russ, Many thanks for Posting Must try wet sanding my self... Cant be too hard


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## leachy

Great post. It looks like a great way to spend three days. The more I look at threads like this the more I want to wet sand my car but realistically I should probably learn to machine polish first!


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## 888-Dave

What a fantastic few days Russ, money well spent imo.

I bet it's given you so much more confidience now eh?


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## MidlandsCarCare

matzagrin said:


> Great topic, congrats!


Thank you :thumb:



Scrim-1- said:


> Pretty in depth stuff Russ, Many thanks for Posting Must try wet sanding my self... Cant be too hard


I think it's relatively easy when shown how and if you can practice on a few panels. I was getting notably better as I went around the car, improving on each panel.



leachy said:


> Great post. It looks like a great way to spend three days. The more I look at threads like this the more I want to wet sand my car but realistically I should probably learn to machine polish first!


Thank you and it was a total pleasure. I'm lucky in that I absorb everything I learn very well, so was able to take a great deal in!



888-Dave said:


> What a fantastic few days Russ, money well spent imo.
> 
> I bet it's given you so much more confidience now eh?


LOADS more! I'm happy to finish my work myself tbh, and already have a few mates' cars lined up so that I can perfect my technique over the coming months. I needed this 'boost' though to get me into a position where I'd be able to comfortably do this on my own. I still want Kelly to show me 'his way' with a Rotary though, it's so very different, yet effective.


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## The Cueball

looks great, time well spent...

I never found wet sanding as scary as some people were making out, and interesting to note how little clear coat is really removed...

hope you get your car fixed too mate  

:thumb:


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## amiller

Love it!

Did you go through the differences between 3M and Meg's paper at all?

So, if time was no object, would it always be paper by hand (rather than foam backing block or machine?)

Thanks for posting. :thumb:


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## MidlandsCarCare

The Cueball said:


> looks great, time well spent...
> 
> I never found wet sanding as scary as some people were making out, and interesting to note how little clear coat is really removed...
> 
> hope you get your car fixed too mate
> 
> :thumb:


Thanks Cuey.

Yes, I had a little accident on the motorway on the way home 


DSC02100 by RussZS, on Flickr

Luckily I know a man with an oven in his unit who can sort that out for me... no orange peel either :lol:

I'm going back down in Jan... going to get my wheels done by Lepsons at the same time.

Russ.


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## id_doug

Truly amazing write up. I think this goes to show the full depth and level of detail and knowledge it takes to complete a job of this nature to such a high standard.

I believe you in the fact of saying that it's not as scary as you say but I would say that is working along side someone very knowledgeable. I would imagine that with the slightest distraction or taking your eye off the ball it could head south very quickly!

I love reading such in depth great write ups like these, but reading is as far as I would go. I know my limitations and this is well outside it.

Thanks for taken the time to share :thumb:


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## MidlandsCarCare

amiller said:


> Love it!
> 
> Did you go through the differences between 3M and Meg's paper at all?
> 
> So, if time was no object, would it always be paper by hand (rather than foam backing block or machine?)
> 
> Thanks for posting. :thumb:


Sorry yes, I should have expanded on this during the write up, but it took 4 hours and I was getting evils!! :lol:

We used 1500 and 2000 grit from 3M, which was a pleasure to use. The 2500, 3000 and 4000 were Megs, as I believe 3M don't offer these grades. The Megs paper was VERY annoying when wet, as it tends to curl into a pencil shape constantly, so I was struggling with handling this at first, but adapted my technique to allow for it. It's all too easy to put in a scoreline with the edge of curling paper!!

Using the Megs Foam block is fine, but I found by hand to be more 'natural' almost and I actually prefer it. I'd advise against a block on curves panels tbh as I struggled a touch as its not as flexible as your hand. The soft block is fine on flat panels though, and in fact easier to use because you don't have the risk of putting finger lines into your work area.

Russ.


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## Ashtra

awesome mate. quality write up well done.


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## Alzak

great write up money well spend :thumb:

now I'm tempted for some training as looks like I have a lot to learn


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## zippo

just when you think you've seen it all .Amazing.What this post did show me is that I'm not even out of the detailing starting gate yet. I Still have so much to get my head around its scary


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## talisman

Brilliant write up, very little grabs my attention these days as like a lot of members we have progressed through all the stages of detailing, a world of difference to the finished panels, have you any more information on how kelly is using his rotary?


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## toni

Most impressive! Thanks for sharing this wonderful experience :thumb:


----------



## Obi- Dan Karnubi

Amazing Russ one of the best write ups ive read and full of info, might have to give the vec a go........ one day lol. well done mate


----------



## Black Magic Detail

great writeup.and a very worthwhile 3 days


----------



## zsdom

A very informative post Russ, the front wing shots are frankly a ridiculous transformation!


----------



## Ns1980

Looks like a fantastic experience! Great thread - I now really want my car done!!


----------



## vdust230

Flawless! You are a brave man using your own car after only 1 days tuition


----------



## MidlandsCarCare

id_doug said:


> Truly amazing write up. I think this goes to show the full depth and level of detail and knowledge it takes to complete a job of this nature to such a high standard.
> 
> I believe you in the fact of saying that it's not as scary as you say but I would say that is working along side someone very knowledgeable. I would imagine that with the slightest distraction or taking your eye off the ball it could head south very quickly!
> 
> I love reading such in depth great write ups like these, but reading is as far as I would go. I know my limitations and this is well outside it.
> 
> Thanks for taken the time to share :thumb:


Thank you!



Ashtra said:


> awesome mate. quality write up well done.


Thanks mate :thumb: 320D next?? 



Alzak said:


> great write up money well spend :thumb:
> 
> now I'm tempted for some training as looks like I have a lot to learn


I would have never learnt so much in 3 days. I loved every second of it.



zippo said:


> just when you think you've seen it all .Amazing.What this post did show me is that I'm not even out of the detailing starting gate yet. I Still have so much to get my head around its scary


Thank you, very kind words 



talisman said:


> Brilliant write up, very little grabs my attention these days as like a lot of members we have progressed through all the stages of detailing, a world of difference to the finished panels, have you any more information on how kelly is using his rotary?


Kelly's rotary handling is very difficult to describe in words, I'll try and get a video done. His has total control of the machine, polish and pad. I guess 19 years of experience, and not learning from the same methods a lot of us on here have, gives you this. He just understands exactly where and when a polish and pad are working, and how. His edging skills are incredible too - doing bits I'd be scared to with a 4" pad, with a 7" pad!!!! :doublesho It's incredible.



toni said:


> Most impressive! Thanks for sharing this wonderful experience :thumb:


Thank you 



Dan3.2 said:


> Amazing Russ one of the best write ups ive read and full of info, might have to give the vec a go........ one day lol. well done mate


All I'd say to anyone having a go on their own, is that cleanliness really is the single most important thing. The second you hear a bit of dirt under the paper, flood the panel and start over.

Thanks all!

Russ.


----------



## MidlandsCarCare

Black Magic Detail said:


> great writeup.and a very worthwhile 3 days


Cheers :thumb:



zsdom said:


> A very informative post Russ, the front wing shots are frankly a ridiculous transformation!


Some of Kellys pics are incredible. I really need an SLR...



Ns1980 said:


> Looks like a fantastic experience! Great thread - I now really want my car done!!


I really would recommend having it done without hesitation. For how little you lose, you have a stunning looking car for the duration you have it. What's your S4 like for peel?



vdust230 said:


> Flawless! You are a brave man using your own car after only 1 days tuition


Indeed, I'll be honest, I was a bit nervous, but I knew I could do it and with the guidance I had, I had the confidence to get through it. I did put in a couple of scorelines, but they were removed at the polishing stage. He said I picked it up very well, which is a great confidence builder!


----------



## Lewisredfern001

brilliant write-up, and as ive already said, fantastic finish. I think 2012 holds great things for you and the new venture. do you have your eye on some new toys after using what kelly has?

lewis


----------



## MidlandsCarCare

Lewisredfern001 said:


> brilliant write-up, and as ive already said, fantastic finish. I think 2012 holds great things for you and the new venture. do you have your eye on some new toys after using what kelly has?
> 
> lewis


I think the PosiTector 6000 is a must. I really like the Flex Rotary too, perhaps more than the Festool, so we shall see.

I doubt I'll invest in a Mirka sander, but there will be a fair bit of 1500-4000 being ordered in for my next couple of cars.

Thank you - I hope it goes well. I'm "only part time" but I still want to be the very best I can be and its good to be able to sort the odd panel here and there for my customers. I'm glad I invested in the Unit now too, to allow me to do work such as this. There's no way you could do this outdoors, or in a dirty environment.

Russ.


----------



## mikeydee

OH MY GOD! simply amazing. Huge thanks for taking the time to do this write up. was your arm aching from doing it by hand or did you use the air sander for most of it?


----------



## MidlandsCarCare

mikeydee said:


> OH MY GOD! simply amazing. Huge thanks for taking the time to do this write up. was your arm aching from doing it by hand or did you use the air sander for most of it?


I didn't use the air sander once on my Golf, it was all done by hand. I only used the block on one panel too.

The sander may have its uses, but I much preferred working by hand. The main issue with the machine is that you can't hear when you've picked up a dirt particle so continue working away merrily without realising the pig-tailing you're inflicting, which in turn requires more clearcoat removal to rectify.

I'll be sticking to hand and won't be investing in the Mirka Air Sanders.


----------



## ArcticVXR

Wow!!! :doublesho

Amazing write up and the pics really do show how much work is involved in obtaining a truly outstanding finish.

Bet you are over the moon with the car :thumb:


----------



## The Cueball

what did you make of the gloss meters Russ?!?!?

what ware the final readings.... I keep looking at getting one, but always pull back from the purchase...

:thumb:


----------



## mikeydee

nice one mate. fantastic results and the team at KDS seem like a great bunch of guys. wish i had the time off from the army to do this.


----------



## MidlandsCarCare

ArcticVXR said:


> Wow!!! :doublesho
> 
> Amazing write up and the pics really do show how much work is involved in obtaining a truly outstanding finish.
> 
> Bet you are over the moon with the car :thumb:


I am!! I can't stop looking at it :lol: It's a shame about the small accident on the way home, but it needs painting anyway! (the bumper)



The Cueball said:


> what did you make of the gloss meters Russ?!?!?
> 
> what ware the final readings.... I keep looking at getting one, but always pull back from the purchase...
> 
> :thumb:


Sorry yes, it's a blurry pic  It was low 90's, so a decent increase from the mid 80's we were getting! I doubt I'd buy one tbh, but it's good to be able to 'validate' what you're doing in some way.

The Microscope was really impressive stuff though, but again limited use arguably.


----------



## The Cueball

more fun boys toys for a few shots then eh?!?!

cheers!

:thumb:


----------



## bigslippy

This has been a real eye opener in terms of removal by various methods and the mirror finishing/reflectivity at completion:doublesho. Great write up and thanks for sharing the experience Russ ... you must feel like Russ Skywalker after having lessons from Obi Wan Kelly.... feel the peel Russ:lol:


----------



## dwmc

thanks for taking to time to post this thread and share your experience , it`s certainly a thread worth reading . i`ve always been put off wet sanding due to risk of removing too much but the way you have explained it and compared it to the mf system it`s something i`ll be looking at in the future , :thumb:


----------



## Fish

Superb write up. 

Fish


----------



## banditbarron

Nice write up Russ will look forward to seeing it in the flesh.

Could the high removal rate of the MF system simply be down to the fact it was removing the damaged layer of sanded clearcoat though?

As you sometimes get when you first test panel a car as it removes the dead layer of uv damage etc?

Would be interesting to run a test side by side MF vs Rotary yes?

I have some wings from the car i broke up in my unit if you fancy it one night?

Dave


----------



## dann2707

As said on Facebook, was really looking forward to this !! Not disappointed either, absolutely amazing work. Greaet job


----------



## Trip tdi

That is jaw dripping wet in the pics, i have never seen VW diamond black look so good on reflections and deep gloss.


----------



## MidlandsCarCare

banditbarron said:


> Nice write up Russ will look forward to seeing it in the flesh.
> 
> *Could the high removal rate of the MF system simply be down to the fact it was removing the damaged layer of sanded clearcoat though?*
> 
> As you sometimes get when you first test panel a car as it removes the dead layer of uv damage etc?
> 
> Would be interesting to run a test side by side MF vs Rotary yes?
> 
> I have some wings from the car i broke up in my unit if you fancy it one night?
> 
> Dave


Possibly, but if that were true then the same would have applied to the removal rate by wool on my car. The MF system has its place for sure, but it seems to be very aggressive on softer paints, but I wouldn't write it off personally after this single panel, as you say it needs more testing. It still has its benefits in terms of low levels of heat build up and an easy to 'handle' machine, but I've not seen many people measure removal rates as yet...

We should defo do some testing


----------



## sicko

Fantastic write up. Very informative and truly amazing finish. 

May i ask how many sheets of sanding paper have you used? Did you change them regulary?


----------



## MidlandsCarCare

The Cueball said:


> more fun boys toys for a few shots then eh?!?!
> 
> cheers!
> 
> :thumb:


Yes, but VERY cool ones :lol:



bigslippy said:


> This has been a real eye opener in terms of removal by various methods and the mirror finishing/reflectivity at completion:doublesho. Great write up and thanks for sharing the experience Russ ... you must feel like Russ Skywalker after having lessons from Obi Wan Kelly.... feel the peel Russ:lol:


Haha that's genius Neil, and thank you for the kind words on Twitter throughout too 



dwmc said:


> thanks for taking to time to post this thread and share your experience , it`s certainly a thread worth reading . i`ve always been put off wet sanding due to risk of removing too much but the way you have explained it and compared it to the mf system it`s something i`ll be looking at in the future , :thumb:


Thank you 



Fish said:


> Superb write up.
> 
> Fish


:thumb:


----------



## MidlandsCarCare

dann2707 said:


> As said on Facebook, was really looking forward to this !! Not disappointed either, absolutely amazing work. Greaet job


Thanks 



Trip tdi said:


> That is jaw dripping wet in the pics, i have never seen VW diamond black look so good on reflections and deep gloss.


Cheers Trip. The colour always annoyed me a lot, very milky in some lighting due to the high metallic flake content. It now just looks glossy and wet. I'm very impressed at the overall appearance now!



sicko said:


> Fantastic write up. Very informative and truly amazing finish.
> 
> May i ask how many sheets of sanding paper have you used? Did you change them regulary?


LOTS!! :doublesho I used a new sheet of each grade on every panel. Sometimes a couple.


----------



## Deano

cor one hell of a write up that Russ! cheers for sharing :thumb:


----------



## MidlandsCarCare

A few more pics from Kelly's set:


DSC_0006 by RussZS, on Flickr


DSC_0005 by RussZS, on Flickr

and how cool is this one????


DSC_0010 by RussZS, on Flickr


DSC_0009 by RussZS, on Flickr


----------



## Derekh929

Fantastic review again all be it more technical work this time , why is the difference you great in clarity with the machine wet sand apposed to hand is it you are breaking down the stages better and more liner action better than DA, also shocked at removal rates on MF system , you would have to careful as a novice on softer paint with that i would have though, glad i have a mini and BM, thanks again Russ for sharing your work and KDS great to look and read and learn but different doing on your own car, how did you feel when you did the first panel?


----------



## JJ_

The microscope is a brillaint addition looked at it a few times myself. Think I might remove the orange peel from the two areas on the car which have had paint. 

I've got to agree Russ hand sanding is my preference there is a technique to it, see a lot of handsanding leaving "fingers" instead of using the palm. 

Did you continue to spray the panel while you were sanding after the initial soaking to flush any particles away ?

You looking forward to doing the rest of the car? 

John.


----------



## *TAY*

Excellent write up Russ thanks for posting it up. :thumb:

Certainly plenty of new & very useful methods / techniques learned over your training days at KDS to add to your detailing skills set.
Props for doing the work on your own car as well mate, results look awesome from the images so I'd imagine in the cold light of day even better :argie:
Its not just the German marques that have the peel, my Focus has it too hence the name of Orangina :lol: 

Wish you all the best with the new venture, just had a quick read through your new unit thread as well :thumb:


----------



## MidlandsCarCare

Deano said:


> cor one hell of a write up that Russ! cheers for sharing :thumb:


Thanks Deano 



Derekh929 said:


> Fantastic review again all be it more technical work this time , why is the difference you great in clarity with the machine wet sand apposed to hand is it you are breaking down the stages better and more liner action better than DA, also shocked at removal rates on MF system , you would have to careful as a novice on softer paint with that i would have though, glad i have a mini and BM, thanks again Russ for sharing your work and KDS great to look and read and learn but different doing on your own car, how did you feel when you did the first panel?


I assume so yes, I'll let Kelly answer that for you in more detail than I'd be able to. Thank you 



JJ_ said:


> The microscope is a brillaint addition looked at it a few times myself. Think I might remove the orange peel from the two areas on the car which have had paint.
> 
> I've got to agree Russ hand sanding is my preference there is a technique to it, see a lot of handsanding leaving "fingers" instead of using the palm.
> 
> Did you continue to spray the panel while you were sanding after the initial soaking to flush any particles away ?
> 
> You looking forward to doing the rest of the car?
> 
> John.


John, no I reflooded the panel every few minutes or so to remove any potential dirt build up. I have seen people use spray bottles which makes sense too, but I stuck to Kelly's instructions. Russ.


----------



## Deeg

Fantastic write up, and amazing finish on your golf now... not that it was shabby to start with.

Love reading things like this, thanks for taking the time to write it up :thumb:


----------



## Clark @ PB

Really interesting read Russ!

Glad to see more mention of edging pads to remove rids as opposed to sanding them,it's so much quicker (especially with wool) Yet folk are all too often a bit quick to break out the sand paper just for the sake of it IMO


----------



## AaronGTi

Absolutely breathtaking!


----------



## MidlandsCarCare

*TAY* said:


> Excellent write up Russ thanks for posting it up. :thumb:
> 
> Certainly plenty of new & very useful methods / techniques learned over your training days at KDS to add to your detailing skills set.
> Props for doing the work on your own car as well mate, results look awesome from the images so I'd imagine in the cold light of day even better :argie:
> Its not just the German marques that have the peel, my Focus has it too hence the name of Orangina :lol:
> 
> Wish you all the best with the new venture, just had a quick read through your new unit thread as well :thumb:


Thanks mate, really appreciate it 



Deeg said:


> Fantastic write up, and amazing finish on your golf now... not that it was shabby to start with.
> 
> Love reading things like this, thanks for taking the time to write it up :thumb:


You're very welcome, and thank you 



Clark @ PB said:


> Really interesting read Russ!
> 
> Glad to see more mention of edging pads to remove rids as opposed to sanding them,it's so much quicker (especially with wool) Yet folk are all too often a bit quick to break out the sand paper just for the sake of it IMO


I completely agree Clark! I've always wondered about using sanding an RDS because surely the benefit of a pad on a machine is that it will contour more into the scratch, allowing you to round it off far more effectively. Plus, if the car has orange peel - which most seem to these days - you really don't want to be leaving the car with a flat spot amongst a 'peely panel'.

Russ.


----------



## Demetrios72

Great write up there Russ
Amazing work


----------



## North east Car Care

Epic matey, simple stunning finish.


----------



## Jesse74

Nice one guys, the end result speaks for itself :thumb: Looks like a very nice course, Kelly! 

- Jesse


----------



## Defined Reflections

Awesome work and a great read! the finish is amazing,i need to save up and go get some wet sanding training like you


----------



## David Proctor

The best Thread I have read for ages..Thanks for sharing it with us..


----------



## Beau Technique

Worthy few days for some insight from a great pro. Costly hobby this mate eh? Or is this becoming a full time thing going to such lengths? Either way, golfs looking smooth as.


----------



## stangalang

Excellent work russ. May I ask a question please, and this is a serious question I am on no way trying to be smart. In the pictures of your own car, can you explain how the original paint is 106 um, the same after 1500, the same after 2000, but then you manage to remove 2um with 2500? Is it something to do with how hard you are working the paper, or is it more likely slight discrepancy in the readings? I just can't get my head around how such harsh paper removes nothing, twice, but a much lighter combo removes so much? Figured it was more to do with "how" and not "what" ?

Cheers in advance, matt


----------



## JBirchy

Great write up Russ. I've been following your progress on Twitter and it certainly looked like an amazing few days! The Golf looks amazing too, and now will be a great advertisment for your own business!


----------



## Jakub555

Russ , I'm so proud of you 
I'm just speechless . After watching your footage I hope I'm gonna be able to do the same thing to .:thumb:
My wife is impressed to when seen real people doing real stuff .
So do you think DA is removing far too much than Rotary ?

Awesome write up
Awesome course
Awesome result 

Well done 
:thumb:


----------



## Racer

Superb reading and learning , congrats Russ and Kelly :thumb:


----------



## Ns1980

RussZS said:


> I really would recommend having it done without hesitation. For how little you lose, you have a stunning looking car for the duration you have it. What's your S4 like for peel?


Not great - will dig out some pics for you. You can then smile and relish the paintwork of your GTI. :thumb:


----------



## Tiauguinho

This is one epic thread!

Thanks guys for posting it! WOW!


----------



## adlem

Thanks for sharing Russ, seem a few ***-bits on the old facebook! Money well spent in my opinion, the Golf looks lush now! And you have learnt from the best!

One serious (stupid) question - the edges of panels never get sanded due to paint being thinner there I'm guessing - but do you not get left with an orange-peely outline? More so if you've got a line reflecting across 2 panels you'll have a wavy/orange-peely section in the middle no?

Thanks again for sharing, thread of the year imo :thumb:


----------



## chrisc

Once you have gone to them lenghts can you ever touch the car again with a rotary or as the paint been took to as far as it will go.Is there a negative effect to going to this level.


----------



## MidlandsCarCare

AaronGTi said:


> Absolutely breathtaking!


Thank you buddy 



Demetri said:


> Great write up there Russ
> Amazing work


Cheers!



butler2.8i said:


> Epic matey, simple stunning finish.


Thanks Shaun :thumb:



Wolf's Chemicals said:


> Nice one guys, the end result speaks for itself :thumb: Looks like a very nice course, Kelly!
> 
> - Jesse


Cheers Jesse 



Defined Reflections said:


> Awesome work and a great read! the finish is amazing,i need to save up and go get some wet sanding training like you


It's a great investment, you leave with such confidence!!



David Proctor said:


> The best Thread I have read for ages..Thanks for sharing it with us..


Too kind, thank you!! I'm very conscious that I could have spent another hour or so adding content, such as more on the RDS removal, and the pro's and con's of the PosiTector 200A



Beau Technique said:


> Worthy few days for some insight from a great pro. Costly hobby this mate eh? Or is this becoming a full time thing going to such lengths? Either way, golfs looking smooth as.


Thanks Scott. I'm staying part time and always will be. I love my day job too. I see this as fun tbh, so don't mind detailing at weekends, so yes, still like a hobby to me!!



stangalang said:


> Excellent work russ. May I ask a question please, and this is a serious question I am on no way trying to be smart. In the pictures of your own car, can you explain how the original paint is 106 um, the same after 1500, the same after 2000, but then you manage to remove 2um with 2500? Is it something to do with how hard you are working the paper, or is it more likely slight discrepancy in the readings? I just can't get my head around how such harsh paper removes nothing, twice, but a much lighter combo removes so much? Figured it was more to do with "how" and not "what" ?
> 
> Cheers in advance, matt


Hi Matt,

That's a very good question, and something I left wide open, so I was expecting a question from an eagle eyed viewer!! :thumb:

The device only measures in even numbers, so is obviously 'rounding up and down' a fair bit. So, for example, 108 could mean 109.9 but could also mean 107.1, so there's a lot of 'swing'. So, 2500 certainly wouldn't have removed more, but 'just enough' to take it past the rounding threshold onto the lower reading - if that makes sense? Ideally we'd have a device reading in steps of .25 microns, so see a truer reading of removal rates. Also, even with the laser pointer it's tough to get the reading on the EXACT spot. Some were higher!! :doublesho:lol: I used the lowest readings we could measure and the most removal to give an avaerage overall view of what we were actually removing.



JBirchy said:


> Great write up Russ. I've been following your progress on Twitter and it certainly looked like an amazing few days! The Golf looks amazing too, and now will be a great advertisment for your own business!


Thank you so much! I hope the Twitter and Facebook updates weren't a little too much? I was very excited about what was going on! It's just a shame the iPhone camera is so poor!

Russ.


----------



## MidlandsCarCare

Jakub555 said:


> Russ , I'm so proud of you
> I'm just speechless . After watching your footage I hope I'm gonna be able to do the same thing to .:thumb:
> My wife is impressed to when seen real people doing real stuff .
> So do you think DA is removing far too much than Rotary ?
> 
> Awesome write up
> Awesome course
> Awesome result
> 
> Well done
> :thumb:


Jakub thank you  I can't say black and white that the DA system removes more than Rotary. I used the DA, Kelly used the Rotary. The paint was softer on the test panel, than on my car (which we can see from how much was removed from wet sanding, when compared to my car). What is key, is just HOW MUCH it removed VERY quickly. If the paint was harder, the result would have been different. It has its place, without doubt, and I'll use it again. However, say for example you have a swirly, soft Evo. If you used this, you're removing PERHAPS more than you want/need to, as with anything though, the lightest combo should be tested first and progress from there.



Racer said:


> Superb reading and learning , congrats Russ and Kelly :thumb:


Thank you!!



Ns1980 said:


> Not great - will dig out some pics for you. You can then smile and relish the paintwork of your GTI. :thumb:


:lol::lol: I will always have engine envy though!!



Tiauguinho said:


> This is one epic thread!
> 
> Thanks guys for posting it! WOW!


Thanks :thumb:



adlem said:


> Thanks for sharing Russ, seem a few ***-bits on the old facebook! Money well spent in my opinion, the Golf looks lush now! And you have learnt from the best!
> 
> One serious (stupid) question - the edges of panels never get sanded due to paint being thinner there I'm guessing - but do you not get left with an orange-peely outline? More so if you've got a line reflecting across 2 panels you'll have a wavy/orange-peely section in the middle no?
> 
> Thanks again for sharing, thread of the year imo :thumb:


Yes, what you're saying is true and correct. If I look now at the edges of my panels, I can see the orange peel effect. However I REALLY have to look for it, as your eye is naturally drawn to the bulk of the panel. Kelly advised that working to the edge is something he does and will do, but it adds to the time SIGNIFICANTLY, and we simply couldn't cater for it in the space of 3 days. It requires more care and attention when polishing, and the difference is negligible. When I get a new car, and do it again myself, I will most probably go right up to the edges.

You can still see the peel on the upper edge of the boot for example. Also, there will be some places where a small amount of peel is present in the Primer layer, which you'd never see. I have a small 'wave' on my drivers door now, but its all about improving the overall appearance as much as possible, and I'd suggest that we've increased it dramatically.

Russ.



chrisc said:


> Once you have gone to them lenghts can you ever touch the car again with a rotary or as the paint been took to as far as it will go.Is there a negative effect to going to this level.


Hi Chris,

That's a good question, but we must remember that most of what has been removed is the 'high points' of any excess of clearcoat, which created the peel effect in the first place. We have gone very little in the way past the lowest point which is the TOP of the even layer of clearcoat.

To put some of this into context, some areas of my car were reading 80 microns and some 140. Without doing a multi layer reading on the entire car, there's no way to be absolutely certain, but I'd have no issue with a light machine polish on this again, which is all it will ever need now...

Russ.


----------



## stangalang

Top one russ. Never knew it was even numbers. Simple and totally makes sense, thanks for the reply


----------



## adlem

Thanks for taking the time to reply Russ, as i thought. Me being me, I'd have to have the whole lot, edges and all done 

Very informative and interesting thread though :thumb:


----------



## hotwaxxx

Incredible Russ. What a finish.

Are you ready to do that to a customer car yet or would you practice a bit more first?


----------



## MidlandsCarCare

hotwaxxx said:


> Incredible Russ. What a finish.
> 
> Are you ready to do that to a customer car yet or would you practice a bit more first?


Thank you!!

I am, but for my own sanity, I'd want to do a number of different types of cars first. I think it'll of more use to me for the odd panel here and there after a poor respray, or on my own cars, but you never know...

Russ.


----------



## Alan W

Russ,

This is one of the most technically informative and interesting Threads on DW this year, in my opinion! 

Many thanks to you, and also Kelly, for sharing with us the finer details of this ultimate detailing skill! :thumb:

Alan W


----------



## Matt.

I've been looking forward to this ever since I knew you were going Russ. 

Fantastic write-up. I echo what Alan has said about the most intresting thread of the year! Talk about saving the best till last. :thumb:

Without swaying away from this great topic, what colour are you having your wheels done when you go back?


----------



## shuggett

Hi Russ,
the Golf looks amazing! very well done.
I've been addicted to this thread all week.
I was so tempted to pop over to KDS to take a look, but I thought you may of thought it a bit rude of me, ( I live local to KDS).
I'm going to see Kelly asap to arrange my course.
Good luck with your unit.
Steve


----------



## Tom_watts

As a few have already said russ, this is one of the best threads I've read on here.The detail in which you have covered is spot on.

I really want to get a wet sand done on the R32 this has given me the inspiration and a bit more understanding.


----------



## Mr Singh

Fantastic thread. I've certainly picked up a few tips for my next whole car wetsand! :thumb:

Said it before so i'll say it again.. once you've owned orange peel free paint finish its impossible to accept anything less!


----------



## MidlandsCarCare

Alan W said:


> Russ,
> 
> This is one of the most technically informative and interesting Threads on DW this year, in my opinion!
> 
> Many thanks to you, and also Kelly, for sharing with us the finer details of this ultimate detailing skill! :thumb:
> 
> Alan W


Alan, you're too kind. I'm truly flattered!! It was a pleasure sharing it too, I love doing write ups! 



Matt. said:


> I've been looking forward to this ever since I knew you were going Russ.
> 
> Fantastic write-up. I echo what Alan has said about the most intresting thread of the year! Talk about saving the best till last. :thumb:
> 
> Without swaying away from this great topic, what colour are you having your wheels done when you go back?


Thank you Matt  I have 2 sets of wheels - some Monza's with Winter Tyres on which will be Gloss Black. I will keep the BBS Pescara's the OEM colour :thumb:



shuggett said:


> Hi Russ,
> the Golf looks amazing! very well done.
> I've been addicted to this thread all week.
> I was so tempted to pop over to KDS to take a look, but I thought you may of thought it a bit rude of me, ( I live local to KDS).
> I'm going to see Kelly asap to arrange my course.
> Good luck with your unit.
> Steve


Thank you so much Steve! It would have been great to meet you! Best of luck with the course. I should be back down soon, so I'll PM you when I am 



Tom_watts said:


> As a few have already said russ, this is one of the best threads I've read on here.The detail in which you have covered is spot on.
> 
> I really want to get a wet sand done on the R32 this has given me the inspiration and a bit more understanding.


Thanks a lot matey  Thanks for your constant support on Facebook too, I really appreciate it! We'll have to meet up sometime...

Russ.


----------



## MidlandsCarCare

Mr Singh said:


> Fantastic thread. I've certainly picked up a few tips for my next whole car wetsand! :thumb:
> 
> Said it before so i'll say it again.. once you've owned orange peel free paint finish its impossible to accept anything less!


Totally agree! If things go to plan my next car will be an E92 BMW, so more of this fun again with that!!


----------



## dazzyb

The car is lookin amazing now. Although it did before anyway
Some great new skills u have learnt which i am sure will be put to use soon


----------



## Mr Singh

RussZS said:


> Totally agree! If things go to plan my next car will be an E92 BMW, so more of this fun again with that!!


Well I've just got an E91 in Le Mans Blue the OP is hideous! ..Going to be given the full wetsand treatment in the spring..should be fun :thumb:

Remember when I wetstanded my factory single stage factory finish on a Lexus/Altezza 5 years ago.. people thought I was mad on detailworld :lol: ... KDS really wasnt on here then, but its great to see these sorts of threads reminds me why I got into detailing


----------



## rocky1722

Amazing thread, very well written and excellent pics. :thumb:


----------



## Roy

Epic thread mate :thumb: it was a pleasure to help out.


----------



## Goodfella36

Great thread Russ


----------



## MidlandsCarCare

dazzyb said:


> The car is lookin amazing now. Although it did before anyway
> Some great new skills u have learnt which i am sure will be put to use soon


Thank you  It's never looked close to this in the flesh, it really does make all the difference.



rocky1722 said:


> Amazing thread, very well written and excellent pics. :thumb:


Thank you, reading it back it does have a few spelling mistakes and randomly missing words, but I was rushing through it. The Sony has served me well, but I definitely need something a bit more flexible in terms of a manual focus to capture defects as well as Kelly does.



Roy said:


> Epic thread mate :thumb: it was a pleasure to help out.


Thanks again Roy. Thanks for the being the Makkys Taxi too :car: :lol: It was great fun working alongside you both - a real honour as I've looked up to you both massively over the past few years.



BespokeCarCare said:


> Great thread Russ


Cheers Lee! Are you about between Xmas and New Year? I'll pop over if you're free?

Russ.


----------



## Goodfella36

yes bud more then welcome over got 3 cars to sort between now and friday


----------



## MidlandsCarCare

BespokeCarCare said:


> yes bud more then welcome over got 3 cars to sort between now and friday


Thanks mate! What about next week? I'll struggle this week - Xmas shopping!! :lol:


----------



## rodders

Great thread, alot of information in here!


----------



## Goodfella36

RussZS said:


> Thanks mate! What about next week? I'll struggle this week - Xmas shopping!! :lol:


Gutted i was going to give you some mans work on rather dirty RR Vogue interior while i got on with the polishing Haha

welcome over anytime :thumb:


----------



## MidlandsCarCare

BespokeCarCare said:


> Gutted i was going to give you some mans work on rather dirty RR Vogue interior while i got on with the polishing Haha
> 
> welcome over anytime :thumb:


I'll see when I'm free and let you know lol!

When is the RR in?


----------



## Goodfella36

RussZS said:


> I'll see when I'm free and let you know lol!
> 
> When is the RR in?


Already in just finishing the Porsche of tomorrow then new bmw x3 on Thursday u got to come over want to see your car :thumb:


----------



## MidlandsCarCare

BespokeCarCare said:


> Already in just finishing the Porsche of tomorrow then new bmw x3 on Thursday u got to come over want to see your car :thumb:


Will do buddy. I'll bring the Crystal Rock and Desire too!


----------



## -Raven-

Awesome work there Russ!!! Need to see more pics of your finished car!!! :thumb:

My mates 900hp Dodge Challenger devil is in for paint at the moment, I will be following the painting stages of it from start to finish. What a slow process! No way am I touching my car afterwords though! 

Very interesting processes going on, and thanks for sharing! Looking forward to seeing your future work mate!


----------



## MidlandsCarCare

type[r]+ said:


> Awesome work there Russ!!! Need to see more pics of your finished car!!! :thumb:
> 
> My mates 900hp Dodge Challenger devil is in for paint at the moment, I will be following the painting stages of it from start to finish. What a slow process! No way am I touching my car afterwords though!
> 
> Very interesting processes going on, and thanks for sharing! Looking forward to seeing your future work mate!


Thank you 

If honest, we did rush a touch to complete before the end, so didn't get as many pics as I'd have liked of the finished article. I'll get some wax on ASAP and get some more pics up. I need to get my Pressed Plates from ECC on too, and possibly my Winter Wheels.

I'll try and do this over the next few days.

Russ.


----------



## TRD

Great work.. I might die of heart attack if I done this to my car!

Money well spent and congrats


----------



## Guest

Thanks for taking the time to post this :thumb: An absolutely fascinating write up and your car looks amazing afterwards!


----------



## JJ_

I think this would be great to see crystal rock or any other high end wax on this and see if it can add anything to that paint as it already looks superb.

Vintage would look sublime on this car.


----------



## Dan_S

Excellent write-up very inspiring work. I'd love to learn these skills in the future.


----------



## n_d_fox

Excellent right up Russ and as i've already said on FB, there is no better way to develop than learning from those that really do excel in their trade :thumb:


----------



## chillly

Russ what was the approx total time spent from start to finish to sand and finish up please mate for one person? 2 full days? or less?

Also would 6 microns of clear be an good average of clear removed across the car or would you say less. Again great thread mate:thumb:


----------



## 3976

Fantastic as stated on other sites.

One question, were you not tempted to go for something like C1 over that finish? I.e. prolonging it against marring for as long as possible? You and I know that marring will occur, however safe someone's wash is, and having spent so much time and effort, I'd want to protect against it...!


----------



## MidlandsCarCare

JD said:


> Fantastic as stated on other sites.
> 
> One question, were you not tempted to go for something like C1 over that finish? I.e. prolonging it against marring for as long as possible? You and I know that marring will occur, however safe someone's wash is, and having spent so much time and effort, I'd want to protect against it...!


It would have been ideal JD, but it takes a good 3-4 hours to do C1 properly and we simply didn't have enough time. I have C1 and Opti Coat at my unit though, so when it warms up a bit, I'll get some on


----------



## MidlandsCarCare

chillly said:


> Russ what was the approx total time spent from start to finish to sand and finish up please mate for one person? 2 full days? or less?
> 
> Also would 6 microns of clear be an good average of clear removed across the car or would you say less. Again great thread mate:thumb:


Man hours, I don't know tbh as there were between 1-3 of us on this, over the space of 2 days and we kept stopping, didn't do the entire car etc


----------



## hotwaxxx

Having not browsed the whole of this thread - but how many sheets of wet paper did you get through on the car?

Is it a case of one sheet of each grade per panel - or is it more or less than that?


----------



## MidlandsCarCare

hotwaxxx said:


> Having not browsed the whole of this thread - but how many sheets of wet paper did you get through on the car?
> 
> Is it a case of one sheet of each grade per panel - or is it more or less than that?


Generally yes, 1 sheet, cut in half per panel - not too bad really


----------



## MidlandsCarCare

TRD said:


> Great work.. I might die of heart attack if I done this to my car!
> 
> Money well spent and congrats


Thank you! I was a touch nervous but fine after Kelly saying I was good enough to do it.



BareFacedGeek said:


> Thanks for taking the time to post this :thumb: An absolutely fascinating write up and your car looks amazing afterwards!


Thank you!! 



JJ_ said:


> I think this would be great to see crystal rock or any other high end wax on this and see if it can add anything to that paint as it already looks superb.
> 
> Vintage would look sublime on this car.


I don't have my big pot yet, but may use Destiny which I have some of.



Dan_S said:


> Excellent write-up very inspiring work. I'd love to learn these skills in the future.


Thanks Dan!



n_d_fox said:


> Excellent right up Russ and as i've already said on FB, there is no better way to develop than learning from those that really do excel in their trade :thumb:


Cheers Nige


----------



## 3976

RussZS said:


> It would have been ideal JD, but it takes a good 3-4 hours to do C1 properly and we simply didn't have enough time. I have C1 and Opti Coat at my unit though, so when it warms up a bit, I'll get some on


Ideal. Still excited for you and the new unit plans fella. When my diary calms down I'll make the trip up and make a brew/chat while you work!


----------



## MidlandsCarCare

JD said:


> Ideal. Still excited for you and the new unit plans fella. When my diary calms down I'll make the trip up and make a brew/chat while you work!


Look forward to it matey


----------



## gally

Just fantastic Russ, has a better read there on the laptop and the car is just stunning, the write up... on another level. So much information and learning from the very best in wet sanding.

Can't wait to see more pictures of it into next year once it's totally finished and the sun actually reappears!!!!!!!! :lol:


----------



## MidlandsCarCare

gally said:


> Just fantastic Russ, has a better read there on the laptop and the car is just stunning, the write up... on another level. So much information and learning from the very best in wet sanding.
> 
> Can't wait to see more pictures of it into next year once it's totally finished and the sun actually reappears!!!!!!!! :lol:


Thanks Kev, I really appreciate the kind words.

My GF's Ka is next, then a poorly sprayed panel on a Lupo GTI... then a friend's new E90 M3 in Jerez Black... :doublesho


----------



## Trip tdi

Russ are you doing this detailing part time or full time....

Plus would you charge more for wet sanding.


----------



## MidlandsCarCare

Also, after my little accident, and issues with stone chips, the Golf is going back down to Kelly in Jan for a full front end respray, which I will also document. I'll be helping to prep the panels after they have been painted. 

Both sets of my wheels will get some Lepsons love too.

Then, if all goes to plan, I should be getting an E92 BMW in April, so yet more orange peel to sort


----------



## MidlandsCarCare

Trip tdi said:


> Russ are you doing this detailing part time or full time....
> 
> Plus would you charge more for wet sanding.


Part time Trip - and it's going to stay that way - I love my day job too much to give it up.

This way, I get to maintain the passion I have for detailing, for me it's still an enjoyable hobby, and I love working on peoples' cars for them. There are a few well respect, part timers in the US, and I'd like to think there's room for the same here in the UK.

Russ.


----------



## Trip tdi

Thats good i know you love detailing alot and i;m sure one day you will make a name for yourself in the UK oneday; don't mind me asking what do you do for a day job Russ...


----------



## MidlandsCarCare

Trip tdi said:


> Thats good i know you love detailing alot and i;m sure one day you will make a name for yourself in the UK oneday; don't mind me asking what do you do for a day job Russ...


I'm a Marketing Data Manager for a large national company Trip - totally different, but equally stimulating


----------



## ianFRST

look alright that dont it? 

great write up too!


----------



## Trip tdi

RussZS said:


> I'm a Marketing Data Manager for a large national company Trip - totally different, but equally stimulating


Wow, you've done well for yourself Russ thats a high position in a company, where did you get your detailing flare from, when did it start Russ for you.


----------



## MidlandsCarCare

Trip tdi said:


> Wow, you've done well for yourself Russ thats a high position in a company, where did you get your detailing flare from, when did it start Russ for you.


Well the Join Date on here I guess - I bought a Porter Cable back in 2006 and it's gone from there really, peaking in early 2007 when I got my first brand new car - a Fiesta ST!

I will find my first proper write up when I get a chance - it was an Ultra Red Clio 197 

I must count the cars I've done too - must be well over 100 now, most of which were mates, or mates or mates! Word of mouth, as they say.

Russ.


----------



## JBirchy

RussZS said:


> Part time Trip - and it's going to stay that way - I love my day job too much to give it up.
> 
> This way, I get to maintain the passion I have for detailing, for me it's still an enjoyable hobby, and I love working on peoples' cars for them. There are a few well respect, part timers in the US, and I'd like to think there's room for the same here in the UK.
> 
> Russ.


This is exactly what i want to do in the future Russ, im a sales guy for a great company selling valves and controls into water utility companies/food and beverage companies, oil and gas and so on, but i love detailing mates/other peoples cars and want to set something up from home next year for weekend work.

The missus isn't overly pleased though!


----------



## JBirchy

RussZS said:


> Thank you so much! I hope the Twitter and Facebook updates weren't a little too much? I was very excited about what was going on! It's just a shame the iPhone camera is so poor!
> 
> Russ.


Not at all Russ! Keep em coming, it was the only thing getting me through the working days last week! Can't access DW on my Blackberry but Twitter is great!


----------



## MidlandsCarCare

Best of luck with it buddy. I'm sure it will put a few people off but I'd like to think I have enough cars and experience under my belt to inspire confidence in my abilities, plus I can keep costs down as it's more of a lifestyle business than a main source of income. The way I see it, it pays for more detailing toys! 

I've never done the whole HMRC self employed stuff before though, but they send you on a free 1/2 day course to get you up to speed, mine is in Jan. If its worth doing, then its worth doing properly IMO. The unit is a godsend too, although unused for most of the week!


----------



## spursfan

awesom work Russ, that must have been a great three days!!

Kev


----------



## JBirchy

RussZS said:


> Best of luck with it buddy. I'm sure it will put a few people off but I'd like to think I have enough cars and experience under my belt to inspire confidence in my abilities, plus I can keep costs down as it's more of a lifestyle business than a main source of income. The way I see it, it pays for more detailing toys!
> 
> I've never done the whole HMRC self employed stuff before though, but they send you on a free 1/2 day course to get you up to speed, mine is in Jan. If its worth doing, then its worth doing properly IMO. The unit is a godsend too, although unused for most of the week!


Yeah i agree, i will also go on a HMRC course for when i decide to do things. If and when it happens, i might be in touch for a bit of advice if thats ok?

The boss man at work has an unused warehouse which he says i can use at weekends which is great, its massive and the lighting is awesome so i think i would also have a unit!


----------



## Summit Detailing

A most enjoyable read fella, obviously the results speak for themselves both in terms of the time, effort & knowledge picked up by yourself & the skill & expertise that Kelly has.

My 'best thread' of 2011!


----------



## MidlandsCarCare

Chris_Z4 said:


> A most enjoyable read fella, obviously the results speak for themselves both in terms of the time, effort & knowledge picked up by yourself & the skill & expertise that Kelly has.
> 
> My 'best thread' of 2011!


That's quite a compliment Chris - thank you! :thumb:

Looks like more wet sanding on the Golf in Jan! I am taking it down to Kelly for a full front end respray, and will document the process fully, then of course he and I will finish it off again. Lots of clearcoat this time though!! :lol:

I'm wondering which LSP I should use - please cast a vote here

Russ.


----------



## Scrim-1-

What wool pad was used with S3 Russ?


----------



## MidlandsCarCare

Scrim-1- said:


> What wool pad was used with S3 Russ?


It was a Scholl pad too mate


----------



## FabrizioTDI

Amazing


----------



## Kevin Brown

A *great* thread... your excitement and enthusiasm comes through in the writing. :thumb:



stangalang said:


> ... In the pictures of your own car, can you explain how the original paint is 106 um, the same after 1500, the same after 2000, but then you manage to remove 2um with 2500?
> 
> Is it something to do with how hard you are working the paper, or is it more likely slight discrepancy in the readings? I just can't get my head around how such harsh paper removes nothing, twice, but a much lighter combo removes so much? Figured it was more to do with "how" and not "what" ?...





RussZS said:


> ... The device only measures in even numbers, so is obviously 'rounding up and down' a fair bit. So, for example, 108 could mean 109.9 but could also mean 107.1, so there's a lot of 'swing'. So, 2500 certainly wouldn't have removed more, but 'just enough' to take it past the rounding threshold onto the lower reading - if that makes sense? Ideally we'd have a device reading in steps of .25 microns, so see a truer reading of removal rates. Also, even with the laser pointer it's tough to get the reading on the EXACT spot. Some were higher!! I used the lowest readings we could measure and the most removal to give an avaerage overall view of what we were actually removing...


I have an opinion on this topic, which I hope you don't mind if I share. A caveat- I don't know a whole lot about these meters.

Let's do a theoretical 3-step sanding of a painted panel. For simplicity sake, let's assume the clear paint on this panel is a very thick *10 millimeters*.

For our *first cut*, lets assume that the abrasive grains attached to our sanding sheet can potentially cut grooves into the paint *3mm* deep. Let's also assume that the sanding sheet is pushed across the surface only *once*, and that a maximum cut is indeed achieved (3mm).

Although we've cut 3mm-deep grooves into the paint, the areas _between_ the grooves are left unaffected. We shall refer to the unaffected portion of paint as *peaks*, which are as tall as the paint originally was prior to sanding. If we were to take a reading of the sanded area, would it still register as being 10mm thick (the same as it was prior to sanding), or would it register 7mm? After all, the meter (the ultrasonic transducer, actually) would still sit upon the uppermost portion of the paint surface. Or... perhaps the meter would take an average the _peak height_ and the _groove depth_, and give a reading of 8.5mm? In the case of this meter, it was mentioned that the meter delivers its readings in even numbers. I simply do not know how the meter works in this regard.

Moving on...

The goal of the *second sanding step* is to eliminate the peaks between the grooves _without_ cutting _further_ into the paint. To do this, we'll use a sanding sheet that can potentially cut grooves into the paint *2mm* deep. Once again, we shall push the sandpaper across the surface only *once*, and achieve a perfect cut of 2mm. However, this time we decide to cut _across_ the peaks left behind by the first sanding step. This way, we're certain to eliminate at least _some_ of every peak.

Done with the second step. At this point, we have not cut into the paint more than 3mm. Our paint surface now features grooves that are 3mm deep, and 2mm deep.

For our *third cut*, we'll use a sanding sheet that can potentially cut grooves into the paint *1mm* deep. To maximize our cut of the varied peaks, we'll shift our direction of sanding once again, in hopes of affecting the original peaks as well as the secondary peaks. As expected in this theoretical sanding session, we achieve a perfect cut of 1mm deep. Any guess as to whether any portion of the paint's surface has been left unaffected by our 3-step sanding process? I suspect that there likely *is*.

On to the buffing!

Our machine, pad, and compound should make short work of eliminating the remaining peaks, and it does. Since the surface is now relatively level, a thickness reading should be accurate and consistent across the paint surface. So, even though we may not have removed all that much paint, it could certainly seem that way if we rely upon only readings. Of course when we sand, we do not typically push the sandpaper across a given area only once. We repeatedly scrub an area over and over, to ensure a thorough cut. In addition, if only one or two sanding steps are accomplished prior to polishing, the readings may be shocking if we compare thickness readings _prior to_ and _after_ the *polishing* session.

*As for the variances in thickness even when using a laser pointer...*

It's likely that your meter was simply picking up *variances* in paint thickness due to paint swell and shrinkage. It would certainly be possible that the meter accurately measured gains in thickness; heat, pressure, and solvents can definitely affect paint thickness in a hurry.

I hope I didn't make this too confusing. Again... a *great job* on the write-up. Lots of talent in the UK.


----------



## FabrizioTDI

Can I have your Flickr link? Want to follow it.


----------



## PaulN

Cracking read really enjoyed it and glad its was a great training course.

When you finishing the car off then? lol


----------



## Kelly @ KDS

Hi Guys :wave:

Roy and Russ great working with the both of you, good guys that are both down to earth normal keen as ever.

Now Roy the next time you pop in I think I will have to stock up on more Mars Bars just for 

When I get time I will post answers to SOME of the replies on this thread, I will be able to answer in more depth and more importantly clarity I guess (no pun intended), Russ has done an absolutely great job on writing this thread as well as his work on the golf in question.

Have another pupil booked for first thing in Jan 2012, this time over many Mondays (does not affect pupil's day job) , and same structure as with Russ and the car another Black Golf :lol:

Not entirely sure of my plans with new thread/threads as I have over 3000 pics of different wet sanded cars to post.

Trying to keep a wet sand guide as short as possible but including enough information at the same time.

One thing (that I have always found and thought) which Russ saw towards the end of day one of training , was a big hurdle to overcome in trying to put down in word form what he was seeing.

This is the main reason why I have held back in posting in the past , I think it will need many draw diagrams to best explain what's going on throughout a thread.

I want to make sure what i write is as clear as possible but without confussing people at the same time.

and this is not one of my better skills TBH :lol:

Kelly

www.kdsdetailing.co.uk


----------



## s3 rav

Great post russ. Very informative and inspiring. Bet the ed30 turns a fair few heads now! Great stuff bud.


----------



## MidlandsCarCare

Thanks all - such great feedback, really appreciated!

I look forward to your responses too Kelly.

Russ.


----------



## scottthurlow

Wow. Good read


----------



## scottthurlow

Oh also where do you get the sanding machine from?


----------



## MidlandsCarCare

Most paint specialists probably sell it, for example (random Google search)

http://www.autopaintsbrighton.co.uk...er-150mm-special-offer-was-200-now-1489-p.asp


----------



## RandomlySet

dude that looks sh1t hot!!!


----------



## MidlandsCarCare

Thanks dude


----------



## tdekany

Not much more can be said, exceptional thread. What settings did you use to take these pictures on your NEX3? Any adjustment afterwards? Thanks.


----------



## Kelly @ KDS

tdekany said:


> Not much more can be said, exceptional thread. What settings did you use to take these pictures on your NEX3? *Any adjustment afterwards? Thanks*.


I am not sure what your meaning of other than editting i guess ???
which means your trying to doubt the finished article .

I really i hope i am wrong to my above comment .

If not then the photos are taken on 2 different camera's FYI .

One being russ's sony which we both used , first time i have ever used one. 
And mine being a Nikkon D5100 , which russ also used first time for Russ.

over the 3 training days both of us just picked up which was closest and charged (as russ's sony had a dead battery , we kept part charging in between shots), my Nikkon camera is left in auto (no flash mode) the same as my cannon 450d.

the only other setting i use with DSLR's is the manual focus mode.

Which we tried to set on the sony camera sometimes to capture close up defects (auto focus normally will focus on the back ground in the reflection)but gave up and just picked up the nikkon as its just a flick of a switch to turn on and off the auto focus.

I have all the pictures of the training days sitting on my laptop as downloaded from the camera , straight into a standard windows folder.

Then russ has uploaded onto his photo holding account .

The same as all my pictures that i have ever taken they are point and shot in auto mode , very few pics are with the settings altered , and when/if they are i say that i have changed the dial like in this thread .

http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=244027

This is why i never add water marks to my photos , even thou i have been told many times to do so by members , product company's , and pro's . this way my photos never go through editting software at all.

I do know it goes on alot , even been sent a link to another forum talking about many of my threads and my work , lots of replies where talking about how easy it is to adjust the contrast and brightness to make the cars looks more glossy , suggesting thats what i do :lol:

when i first started posting on here , my webdesigners emailed my saying that they had a few enquires about if I or them photoshop the photos of the cars i have on my website .

To me i just take it as a big compliment really , and leave the doubters to carry on what they do best.

The files with Russ's photos like exactly the same as the ones he has posted.

so i am sure he has not adjusted them .

Once i write a thread on this training , you will be able to compare and see they same photos stored on different laptop , held on different photos holding account, wrote by a different person on here .

There will be no difference :thumb:

Lastly russ will be able to back me up with this , i really struggle to operate a PC well and takes my ages just to write a new thread , my early threads we taken using camera phone only , then progress to a canon sureshot (given to me by customer after seeing me use a phone for photos) then i was given a a slightly better camera that also records by another happy customer after he up graded his equipment. 
(Russ met him while training) the customer also bought me a road angel as a thank you for working on his car (this was when they cost £400), i have only just bought myself a camera and will never know how to use it to the best.

Russ saw for himself how i know just enough about IT to keep me going .

HTH Kelly

www.kdsdetailing.co.uk


----------



## Roy

Kelly I took these on my HTC Desire S phone. I simply have simply resized them and straight on to here (slow BB connection at home)

I don't think you could get a more basic camera so these pics should say it all :thumb:




























Roy.


----------



## tdekany

Yes you are wrong. We all know and appreciate what you are capable of.

10 days ago I got my first quality camera - a LUMIX G3. Initially I was going for a nikon D5100 but a client of mine is a pro photographer who introduced me to the world of M4/3. So now I read their message board nightly and read about the NEX line as well. I was very interested in the NEX 7 (can't just go to a store yet to purchase it) and the NEX5n but we needed a viewfinder which the NEX5n lacks. BUT! I love the pictures these NEX cameras take.

Sadly, on the photo forums most pictures are adjusted and while to me and you that is a no no, in the photographer's mind it is a given.

Glad to see the real color of the NEX. That is all.

I hope this explains why I asked.



kdskeltec said:


> I am not sure what your meaning of other than editting i guess ???
> which means your trying to doubt the finished article .
> 
> *I really i hope i am wrong to my above comment* .
> 
> If not then the photos are taken on 2 different camera's FYI .
> 
> One being russ's sony which we both used , first time i have ever used one.
> And mine being a Nikkon D5100 , which russ also used first time for Russ.
> 
> over the 3 training days both of us just picked up which was closest and charged (as russ's sony had a dead battery , we kept part charging in between shots), my Nikkon camera is left in auto (no flash mode) the same as my cannon 450d.
> 
> the only other setting i use with DSLR's is the manual focus mode.
> 
> Which we tried to set on the sony camera sometimes to capture close up defects (auto focus normally will focus on the back ground in the reflection)but gave up and just picked up the nikkon as its just a flick of a switch to turn on and off the auto focus.
> 
> I have all the pictures of the training days sitting on my laptop as downloaded from the camera , straight into a standard windows folder.
> 
> Then russ has uploaded onto his photo holding account .
> 
> The same as all my pictures that i have ever taken they are point and shot in auto mode , very few pics are with the settings altered , and when/if they are i say that i have changed the dial like in this thread .
> 
> http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=244027
> 
> This is why i never add water marks to my photos , even thou i have been told many times to do so by members , product company's , and pro's . this way my photos never go through editting software at all.
> 
> I do know it goes on alot , even been sent a link to another forum talking about many of my threads and my work , lots of replies where talking about how easy it is to adjust the contrast and brightness to make the cars looks more glossy , suggesting thats what i do :lol:
> 
> when i first started posting on here , my webdesigners emailed my saying that they had a few enquires about if I or them photoshop the photos of the cars i have on my website .
> 
> To me i just take it as a big compliment really , and leave the doubters to carry on what they do best.
> 
> The files with Russ's photos like exactly the same as the ones he has posted.
> 
> so i am sure he has not adjusted them .
> 
> Once i write a thread on this training , you will be able to compare and see they same photos stored on different laptop , held on different photos holding account, wrote by a different person on here .
> 
> There will be no difference :thumb:
> 
> Lastly russ will be able to back me up with this , i really struggle to operate a PC well and takes my ages just to write a new thread , my early threads we taken using camera phone only , then progress to a canon sureshot (given to me by customer after seeing me use a phone for photos) then i was given a a slightly better camera that also records by another happy customer after he up graded his equipment.
> (Russ met him while training) the customer also bought me a road angel as a thank you for working on his car (this was when they cost £400), i have only just bought myself a camera and will never know how to use it to the best.
> 
> Russ saw for himself how i know just enough about IT to keep me going .
> 
> HTH Kelly
> 
> www.kdsdetailing.co.uk


----------



## MidlandsCarCare

tdekany said:


> Not much more can be said, exceptional thread. What settings did you use to take these pictures on your NEX3? Any adjustment afterwards? Thanks.


As Kelly said, nothing was done editing wise - I wouldn't even know how tbh!

I've not long had my NEXC3 (which is the newer model with update spec) and most of these were point and click in auto mode, with a bit of a play with the manual focus to capture the defects.

95% of the pics were my NEXC3, but some of the finished pics were taken on Kelly's DSLR, but again were unedited. They were simply copied from the SD Card's and uploaded directly to my flickr account.

Thanks,

Russ


----------



## tdekany

I appreciate the reply Russ. The pictures look amazing. As I said I just picked up a G3 and is a very nice unit, but if the NEX 7 was available right now I'd try to convince the wife to invest the double price.


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## MidlandsCarCare

No problem. I regret not going for the 5N now if I'm honest as the Full HD video recording would have been very useful, but the C3 is great for £350 or so. The 7 is very special from what I've seen, but then so is the G3.

I've seen a few 'edited' pics on here of late, and it's not something I'd ever do. I agree with Kelly with regards to water marking etc. As he says, if your work is strong enough, then there's really no need

You should see the state of my Golf at the moment... I've not cleaned it since this session!  Hopefully Friday it'll get some love...


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## Leemack

RussZS said:


> No problem. I regret not going for the 5N now if I'm honest as the Full HD video recording would have been very useful, but the C3 is great for £350 or so. The 7 is very special from what I've seen, but then so is the G3.
> 
> I've seen a few 'edited' pics on here of late, and it's not something I'd ever do. I agree with Kelly with regards to water marking etc. *As he says, if your work is strong enough, then there's really no need*
> 
> You should see the state of my Golf at the moment... I've not cleaned it since this session!  Hopefully Friday it'll get some love...


Disagree

If your work is strong enough then a muppet will pop it straight onto his site. I know how to watermark an image but in terms of editing Im with Russ.

I wouldn't know what button to press. I know i can put in the card thing into the computer slot, open files and drag and drop. Oh and I know how to upload to Photobucket and cut and paste


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## tdekany

I know how you feel - we have until this saturday to make up my mind about the g3. Very happy with it, but the 1 camera i'd exchange it for would be the NEX7 (wife needs viewfinder so it is a must.)

As far as your car, it looks clean compared to mine. 












RussZS said:


> No problem. I regret not going for the 5N now if I'm honest as the Full HD video recording would have been very useful, but the C3 is great for £350 or so. The 7 is very special from what I've seen, but then so is the G3.
> 
> I've seen a few 'edited' pics on here of late, and it's not something I'd ever do. I agree with Kelly with regards to water marking etc. As he says, if your work is strong enough, then there's really no need
> 
> You should see the state of my Golf at the moment... I've not cleaned it since this session!  Hopefully Friday it'll get some love...


----------



## MidlandsCarCare

It's about the same actually!! :lol:

I'll post a pic up tomorrow - it's a shocking state!! I feel so guilty after doing all of this to it!


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## Leemack

Nice wetsanding bud

Orange peel 0 - 1 Russ


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## Eurogloss

*Top work and write up Russ , very informative indeed , Kelly being the master in this field it must have been very gratifying to work with him and learn new skills .

When I detailed the paint on a Maserati Grand Sport five months ago I followed the same system the only exception being not using a laser pointer as they are forbidden in Australia due to new laws !

A bit of a bummer really 

One question for Kelly , don't you find that edging could generate excessive amounts of heat ? I was tought not to tilt the rotary on it's side due to the dangers of burning the paint especially if you are using foam pads which create more heat than wool . Does that make sense ?

Thanks

Thanks for sharing Russ and Kelly

Happy New Year !

Best Regards

Mario *


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## Leemack

Also to add to my earlier post

We bought a fandangly new camera from Marc (Heavenly) and it is light years ahead of anything i've ever used and some of the pictures (EVEN IN MY HANDS) look professionally mastered. Ok bit of an over reaction but they look great even in Auto thingy.

I used to use my phone FFS so having a decent camera helps and tbh, if the work you have done is of the quality we see here, then i agree that no touching is required at all and most knowledgable people will know who worked on the car.

Anyone who doubts any of these pictures is a plonker. Great work by 2 great detailers. Is it really that hard to see?
Russ is 5 minutes up the road from me but even me being a competitior wouldn't knock his work. He is a top lad who knows his way around a car :thumb:

Now, where's my sandpaper :lol:


----------



## tdekany

Did you read anyone's post doubting the work done?



Concours CC said:


> Anyone who doubts any of these pictures is a plonker. Great work by 2 great detailers. Is it really that hard to see?
> Russ is 5 minutes up the road from me but even me being a competitior wouldn't knock his work. He is a top lad who knows his way around a car :thumb:
> 
> Now, where's my sandpaper :lol:


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## anpictum

From what I've learnt over the the last few months trawling the web for info, you could pay £1000's for this kind of info. Qudos to Kelly RussZs for sharing. I used this info to repair many small (but very annoying) chips on my van using just a Halfords touch up kit and wet sanding, the repairs are invisible. To anyone uber cautious I would say all you need is a panel from the wreckers to practice on, a few hours patience and the nerve to try it out. Many thanks guys.


----------



## Alan H

I'm glad your plans are coming to fruition Russ.
A very informative read mate, and excellent results.....


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## _stuz_

Amazing write up and amazing pictures, The car looks genuinely amazing now credit to you guys who worked on it. . . 

*Stu now wonders how much a training course is* :lol:

Stu


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## cheby

Awesome work and great training. Must of been scary seeing the paint work before it was polished back up


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## cheby

Awesome work and great training. Must of been scary seeing it all wetsanded


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## Pedro.Malheiro

WOW really amazing job!! congratulations


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## Rowan83

Absolutely amazing results guys!!! Thank you for sharing with us Russ :thumb:


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## MidlandsCarCare

Thanks all 

Russ.


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## amiller

I heard rumours you were thinking of wrapping the car after doing all this work!?


----------



## MidlandsCarCare

Indeed - just as a trial to see how I get on with wrapping...


----------



## tdekany

Russ - where is the picture of your car you promised?


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## HeavenlyDetail

tdekany said:


> I know how you feel - we have until this saturday to make up my mind about the g3. Very happy with it, but the 1 camera i'd exchange it for would be the NEX7 (wife needs viewfinder so it is a must.)
> 
> As far as your car, it looks clean compared to mine.


NEX7 24mp is gonna be the dogs!! Waiting for this now ,gutted about the floods that have held it up for 3 months


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## tdekany

I am now stuck with the g3, but I see people (on forums) getting lucky just by walking into a store and able to buy a nex 7.


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## HeavenlyDetail

tdekany said:


> I am now stuck with the g3, but I see people (on forums) getting lucky just by walking into a store and able to buy a nex 7.


One went for $3000 on ebay but uk not expected till late feb..

Russ you look like youve been having fun...


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## tdekany

Yeah, I've seen the prices on e bay. The stores are selling it msrp. $1250 body only and $1400 with kit lens. Really good price for what you are getting.


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## Bod42

Russ thats awesome work, I love sanded black cars they just look amazing.

When you wet/dry sand paintwork how do you tell when the sand paper needs changing. I find it hard to tell when using really fine gardes like 3000/4000 but the lower grades clog with clear coat really fast


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## MidlandsCarCare

Update here:

http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=248819


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## B&B Autostyle

One hell of a wrte up!

Congratulations Russ,a great string to the bow.


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## Guest

The finish on that BMW is supreme!


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## Trip tdi

HeavenlyDetail said:


> NEX7 24mp is gonna be the dogs!! Waiting for this now ,gutted about the floods that have held it up for 3 months


That bora looks real smart.


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## MidlandsCarCare

More superb results from Kelly's tuition here:

http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=250717

The Golf is going back down soon for a KDS respray on the front end, and I will wet sand afterwards.

Also I have a white Edition 30 in shortly with a few stone chips which are being repaired and wet sanded, and a Focus ST500 with a poorly finished respray, this will also be sanded. Pics to follow.

Russ.


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## Kelly @ KDS

Just so Russ know's

while doing the screen test for TV yesterday, the media company said , after googling KDS detailing to show their bosses about me and the work we do.

this is the thread they viewed :thumb:

kelly

www.kdsdetailing.co.uk


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## McClane

A good thread to stumble on! The reflections in the afters always look like HD compared to normal TV! :thumb:


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## MidlandsCarCare

Thanks Kelly. 

How did it go??


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## Kelly @ KDS

MidlandsCarCare said:


> Thanks Kelly.
> 
> How did it go??


Not sure really , when your in front of the camera you cant tell .

And the media company dont give anything away, i will be told soon thou.

Driving home kept thinking off the things i could of said better or just changed.

But hey just got to wait and see , the camera guys had some smiles and laughs now and then so hopefully thats a good sign 

kelly

www.kdsdetailing.co.uk


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## Fat Audi 80

I have only just seen this thread. Thanks for an excellent write up, I have learnt more in 10 minutes than a few months of reading other threads on DW! :thumb:

Thanks again.

Cheers,

Steve


----------



## MidlandsCarCare

Fat Audi 80 said:


> I have only just seen this thread. Thanks for an excellent write up, I have learnt more in 10 minutes than a few months of reading other threads on DW! :thumb:
> 
> Thanks again.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Steve


Very kind words - thank you!

I am keen to get back down to KDS to get my front end resprayed... maybe even get taught how to do it whilst I'm down there, then flatten it myself and polish it up...

Russ.


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## Robin_

Great job done!


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## Alex L

I think this deserves a bump, truely astounding work.

The clarity of the finish is mind blowing and since reading this and looking at other write ups (mine included) they just lack something.


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## Alan W

Alex L said:


> I think this deserves a bump, truely astounding work.


Nice one Alex - This definitely deserves some more exposure! :thumb:



Kelly @ KDS said:


> And the media company dont give anything away, i will be told soon thou.
> 
> kelly
> 
> www.kdsdetailing.co.uk


Any updates on whether stardom beckons for you on screen as well Kelly? 

Alan W


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## Alex L

Alan W said:


> Nice one Alex - This definitely deserves some more exposure! :thumb:
> 
> Alan W


I was searching on posts for the Megs MF polishing system and this came up, definitely one of, if not the best detail I've seen in photos.

As for the tiny glimpse of Kelly's M3 :doublesho:doublesho

Just a shame detailing isn't as big down here, I do miss going to meet ups and stuff like this.

I wonder if I could arrange something like this when I come over on honeymoon at Christmas lol


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## ckeir.02mh

I have read this thread many times thought i had already posted a reply, but it seems that i haven't so here goes...

One word: Thankyou



Chris.


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## MidlandsCarCare

Thank you all! It still amazes me now at how much depth has been added to my Golf by doing this. On the rare occasion its clean, I can't stop looking at it!

I'll be putting Exo on it soon I think, so will add pics when I do.

Cheers,
Russ.


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## ckeir.02mh

Can't wait, that's what its all about.


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## gatman

Just read it all, great write up. I'm attending the beginners course next month, can't wait


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## skorpios

Awesome work and write up guys!!!! :doublesho

Kelly, wish we could once have you here at Greece to teach us your magnificent skills!! :wave:


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## deni2

Incredible topic, and also awesome finish on Your golf.


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## MidlandsCarCare

Thanks all!!


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## gb270

Great read


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## MidlandsCarCare

I can't believe that this was a year ago! That's gone so quickly!

I should hopefully have my new car within a few weeks and its also orange peeled like mad, so that'll get the same treatment as the Golf did!

Thanks again to Kelly and his team for the great time I had down there and the great amount of valuable information I picked up.

Thanks,
Russ.


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## Scrim-1-

MidlandsCarCare said:


> I can't believe that this was a year ago! That's gone so quickly!
> 
> I should hopefully have my new car within a few weeks and its also orange peeled like mad, so that'll get the same treatment as the Golf did!
> 
> Thanks again to Kelly and his team for the great time I had down there and the great amount of valuable information I picked up.
> 
> Thanks,
> Russ.


BMW Russ?


----------



## MidlandsCarCare

Scrim-1- said:


> BMW Russ?


Yep - orange peel crazy!! I'll probably end up wrapping it anyway :lol:


----------



## sm81

MidlandsCarCare said:


> Yep - orange peel crazy!! I'll probably end up wrapping it anyway :lol:


So do you get more to it after wetsand it when sold?


----------



## MidlandsCarCare

sm81 said:


> So do you get more to it after wetsand it when sold?


What do you mean sorry?

Do you mean is the car worth more after being wet sanded or?


----------



## b9rgo1234

:doublesho You have sold the golf? What are you thinking? 
What BMW you going for?


----------



## MidlandsCarCare

b9rgo1234 said:


> :doublesho You have sold the golf? What are you thinking?
> What BMW you going for?


Not yet but it'll be gone within a couple of weeks.

135i will be next with some Birds suspension love, a diff and a cheeky remap up to about 400bhp. V8 M3 felt too big for my tastes. I've always been more of a fan of pocket rockets and the 135i whilst not the best looking car, is an awesome platform for a serious bit of kit.

That 3L Twin Turbo engine is genius.

I'd love a 1M, but can't stretch to one at the moment.


----------



## Willows-dad

You'll have to wet sand that with BMW orange peel guaranteed.
Edit: just read the last page.


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## MidlandsCarCare

Willows-dad said:


> You'll have to wet sand that with BMW orange peel guaranteed.


Oh definitely, the peel on them is truly awful! I'm just not sure which colour to go for yet, but it must have iDrive and Xenons. They are actually pretty rare cars so its hard to be picky on spec.

I did look at the new one too, which there are some great deals on, but the styling isn't the best!


----------



## ImDesigner

That new Beemer will be a stunner I'm sure. I'll look forward to the write up!

As for the Golf, well what a jaw dropper! :thumb:


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## sm81

MidlandsCarCare said:


> What do you mean sorry?
> 
> Do you mean is the car worth more after being wet sanded or?


Yep that is what I mean.


----------



## b9rgo1234

MidlandsCarCare said:


> Not yet but it'll be gone within a couple of weeks.
> 
> 135i will be next with some Birds suspension love, a diff and a cheeky remap up to about 400bhp. V8 M3 felt too big for my tastes. I've always been more of a fan of pocket rockets and the 135i whilst not the best looking car, is an awesome platform for a serious bit of kit.
> 
> That 3L Twin Turbo engine is genius.
> 
> I'd love a 1M, but can't stretch to one at the moment.


Nice choice :thumb: With the right bits it should be as quick/ quicker than a 1M anyway. 
I haven't been a fan of the new m3. I was in a 335d that smoked a M3 without any trouble. :lol:


----------



## conrad222

the facelifted 1 series isnt looker imo.. and i think you should go for red 

jay


----------



## MidlandsCarCare

sm81 said:


> Yep that is what I mean.


Yep I have been offered a decent price for it. It's quite widely recognised which has surprised me - few people have noticed it at a local VW tuning place and asked if I was Russ. Freaks me out a little bit!



conrad222 said:


> the facelifted 1 series isnt looker imo.. and i think you should go for red
> 
> jay


Wolves BMW has a red 135i. Ticks all of the boxes but needs to come down by about £1500!

Red is different, you don't see many


----------



## conrad222

MidlandsCarCare said:


> Yep I have been offered a decent price for it. It's quite widely recognised which has surprised me - few people have noticed it at a local VW tuning place and asked if I was Russ. Freaks me out a little bit!
> 
> Wolves BMW has a red 135i. Ticks all of the boxes but needs to come down by about £1500!
> 
> Red is different, you don't see many


plus its an awesome colour 

just had a look nice car!

shame about the price, im sure youll get some knocked of or you already tried


----------



## b9rgo1234

Red is fastest :driver:


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## MidlandsCarCare

conrad222 said:


> plus its an awesome colour
> 
> just had a look nice car!
> 
> shame about the price, im sure youll get some knocked of or you already tried


I'll do my best! The chrome bits around the windows are odd on this model and look a bit naff but its no big deal to get them wrapped black.

Did you take your wheels back into Greg btw? He said you've not been back since.


----------



## conrad222

MidlandsCarCare said:


> I'll do my best! The chrome bits around the windows are odd on this model and look a bit naff but its no big deal to get them wrapped black.
> 
> Did you take your wheels back into Greg btw? He said you've not been back since.


yeah just get them wrapped easy enough

not yet mate im thinking of going back just after xmas as i might get a quote to have my skirt resprayed too


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## Alzak

So golf is going then ... Is the BMW 100% Your next car or some other options are on table as well ?? RS3, Golf R ...??


----------



## MidlandsCarCare

conrad222 said:


> yeah just get them wrapped easy enough
> 
> not yet mate im thinking of going back just after xmas as i might get a quote to have my skirt resprayed too


Mention me and he'll sort you out 



Alzak said:


> So golf is going then ... Is the BMW 100% Your next car or some other options are on table as well ?? RS3, Golf R ...??


Defo BMW Albert 

We need to talk soon about your idea too...


----------



## Alzak

I have to say I'm not a big fan of 1 series coupe shape but engine is a beast ... where would You remap it ??


----------



## MidlandsCarCare

Alzak said:


> I have to say I'm not a big fan of 1 series coupe shape but engine is a beast ... where would You remap it ??


P-Torque again, definitely :thumb:


----------



## moosh

Russ is the golf sold mate?


----------



## MidlandsCarCare

moosh said:


> Russ is the golf sold mate?


Not just yet - it's being wrapped first.

Also uniquely we are going to be wet sanding the wrap so we'll add that content to this write up when its completed…

Thanks,
Russ.


----------



## id_doug

MidlandsCarCare said:


> Not just yet - it's being wrapped first.
> 
> Also uniquely we are going to be wet sanding the wrap so we'll add that content to this write up when its completed…
> 
> Thanks,
> Russ.


Forgive my ignorance on this. But what is the purpose of wet sanding the wrap?


----------



## MidlandsCarCare

Most of the gloss colours are more 'orange peely' than BMW paint so can end up looking like a bad respray. Wet sanding can remove this look massively improving overall appearance to a wrapped car.


----------



## Luis

Great post


----------



## id_doug

MidlandsCarCare said:


> Most of the gloss colours are more 'orange peely' than BMW paint so can end up looking like a bad respray. Wet sanding can remove this look massively improving overall appearance to a wrapped car.


Cool. Thanks for the answer. I never would of thought that wraps would have a peel type effect to it especially with the stretching process of fitting it. But then again I've never wrapped anything in my life other than Christmas presents so what would I know :lol:

Looking forward to the write up on that one :thumb:


----------



## composite

Sweet jesus...........


----------



## MidlandsCarCare

The Golf will be up for sale within a few days, so if anyone is interested let me know please. It's about to get a full service, light detail and two new front tyres then off she goes


----------



## Alzak

MidlandsCarCare said:


> The Golf will be up for sale within a few days, so if anyone is interested let me know please. It's about to get a full service, light detail and two new front tyres then off she goes


What will be the golf replaced with ?? still thinking about 1 series Russ ??


----------



## MidlandsCarCare

Alzak said:


> What will be the golf replaced with ?? still thinking about 1 series Russ ??


Hi Albert,

An M3 is up next, finally made my mind up. Then a week later no doubt I'll be after my next car haha 

Russ.


----------



## NMH

Hi Russ

Do you run wet sanding classes?

Cheers


----------



## puntohgt77

Russ,

I was driving past Sytner Oldury last night and this caught my eye...

http://www.sytneroldburybmw.co.uk/approved-used-bmw/

Quite a lot of money and you could get a nice spec brand new M135i for less but that should hold its value a little more and is a proper M car!

Edit: For some reason it only takes you to the used car section but click on the 1 series M and its in there ;-)


----------



## slammed172

Brilliant brilliant thread !


----------



## bilout48

nice job ;-)


----------



## Metske

This is awesome! I see your sanding with and without a sandingblock. When and why do you use the sanding block (E7200)?


----------



## JanisM91

I understand this is very old threat but I got a question. How did you wetsand the edges. I see that you did not touch them with 1500. Which grade did you use on edges, and probably used a block right? Have done some wetsanding jobs but edges is my weakness


----------



## mb1

where can I buy panel used panel from please.


----------



## Guest

Excellent thread, thanks for showing, and well done. I've followed Kelly for years, like you say he's one of the best in the Uk. I will one day go down and do a course with him myself :thumb:


----------



## mb1

nice work


----------



## Mk2Singh

Awesome work!


----------



## Forsh

mb1 said:


> where can I buy panel used panel from please.


http://bfy.tw/GrPO


----------



## Derekh929

Forsh said:


> http://bfy.tw/GrPO


Yes that's all well and good but all the staff are outside and on strike


----------



## Johnnyopolis

*Mega Post Bump*

8 Years later to the day and Russ returns to KDS to learn about Lake Country Pads!

Check out the video here -


----------



## Ginnova

Excellent write-up.

Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk


----------



## Alan W

Johnnyopolis said:


> *Mega Post Bump*
> 
> 8 Years later to the day and Russ returns to KDS to learn about Lake Country Pads!
> 
> Check out the video here -


I watched the video last night. Good to see Russ again. :wave:

Great news on Kelly becoming a Brand Ambassador for Lake Country! I'm sure he'll do the role justice and increase their profile in the UK. :thumb:

What an epic Thread this was and hopefully a few more will now get to see it. 

Alan W


----------

