# Any plumbers / bathroom fitters out there? need some help..



## Magic Detail (Jul 25, 2010)

Hello all,

Figured this was probably the best place to put this, but mods, feel free to move if required! 

I've recently had a new bathroom fitted (wet room), and I feel the work has been carried out to an unsatisfactory standard and I am unhappy with the 'finished' results. It's actually the plumber I'm unhappy with, I should say that I am absolutely delighted with the tiling which was done by another company :thumb:

I'm looking for a bit of advice really, because at this stage I haven't paid the final bill for the actual bathroom 'fit' due to feeling that it isn't up to standard, and today I've disputed it when the plumber has called me to chase up payment. 

Why am I unhappy?

I'm no plumber, but the following are observations that I have made;

* airing cupboard now useless as shelves have been removed for fitting of shower pump (I still have a tank in the loft, gravity fed system). 
* shower pump not secured, just placed in the centre of the only shelf.
* exposed wiring on (only an earth, but exposed) an electrical spur which is powering the plug socket for pump. 
* plastic water piping in loft poorly fitted and very untidy - the only reason I can think of this is to save on the piping. Nor is it lagged. 
* cistern for toilet not fitted/secured to the wall, thick blobs of silicone have been used (and poorly) to try and stop it moving.
* wall bracket for shower screen only held in with 3 screws, which are screwed into grouting, instead of recommended 6 with pilot holes because "the tiles are too hard to drill".
* incorrect screws used for wall bracket cover - they are too long and use a countersunk head for flat holes. 
* toilet seat not fitted straight - basic but still thought I'd note it!
* exterior waste pipework not pointed/cemented.
* damage to 4 floor tiles

There's probably a whole host of stuff I've not found because I don't 100% know what I am looking for 

The pipework in the loft which joins my water tank via a union was leaking quite heavily when I got in at 10pm on Monday night this week, which was supposedly the day he had finished (as confirmed on the phone when he spoke to my g/f). It was so bad, water was leaking in from the loft through my door frame! Although I'm not a plumber or tradesman, I am quite able and willing to do stuff, so I was able to stop the leak myself. As he said he'd finished, myself an my dad decided to repair his bodged up pipework at the union in the tank - basically, he had drilled through a supported section of the tank, and on the inside the plastic washer he'd used wasn't sealing because it was chaffing on the cut away part of the bracket.. 

I have loads of pictures of all these faults, and have challenged him about the final cost today, stating I was unhappy with his worksmanship and listed all the problems above. Thing is, I don't want him in my house anymore, he has been dragging this job out. Last week, he spent a total of 12hrs on the job to get to what he called "finished". I confirmed when he asked me for payment if it was finished and he also confirmed it to me, as well as my g/f earlier this week. 

So I'm really asking where do I stand with all this? Am I within my rights to not pay him? He is a "friend of a friend" which was why I got him in, after having a couple of quotes off other companies. My mate, needless to say, is now very embaressed, but it's not his fault this plumber can't do his job! No paperwork has changed hands, quotes, contracts etc I haven't signed anything, as he was supposedly doing it 'cheaper for cash' - so where am I up to with it all? Can I just not pay him? as it looks like I am going to have to either use my initiative and do it myself with the help of my dad, or get someone else in to finish the job properly.

Could anyone give me some pointers?

Cheers,
Matt.


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## ozzy (Jan 1, 2007)

Can i see some of the pictures? i fit bathrooms for a living (S/E) some of what you say sounds a little doggy!


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## tommyzooom (Aug 15, 2009)

Doesn't sound too good,
Most of the tiles now , especially large format ones are made from porcelain and can be extremely hard, however any plumber worth his salt should have come across this before and have diamond drills to suit.
If you want to drill them yourself, google 365 drills, they are good for the money, dont let them dry out though.
you could knock the price of them off his bill, but I think you may have to give the guy a chance to put things right first


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## P4ULT (Apr 6, 2007)

Paragon said:


> Hello all,
> 
> Figured this was probably the best place to put this, but mods, feel free to move if required!
> 
> ...


*the other bits just seem like lazyness. you do need to give him a chance to rectify rather than just not pay him.*


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## THE CHAMP (Aug 1, 2008)

Sounds to me that you have a right to not be happy as a lot of what you have pointed out is very poor. And if you where to get a good plumber round he would see a lot more wrong with the installation that you dont see. There are plenty of so called tradesmen that work to a very poor standard and you have been unlucky and have had one of them doing your work. I hope you get it sorted.


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## ivor (Sep 24, 2008)

sounds like he should of turned up on a horse the shower pump should of been fixed in place preferably on a rubber mounting bracket to prevent vibrations from travelling and causing excess noise 

Earthing should be fully shielded 
cistern should be fixed with screws if there are no holes it should have brackets underneath that it sits on screw could also be hidden but if he's using silicon I would be surprised 
water tank he should of checked before drilling so as not to hit a support 
Pipework thats just lazy and no standards


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## P4ULT (Apr 6, 2007)

ivor said:


> sounds like he should of turned up on a horse the shower pump should of been fixed in place preferably on a rubber mounting bracket to prevent vibrations from travelling and causing excess noise
> 
> Earthing should be fully shielded
> cistern should be fixed with screws if there are no holes it should have brackets underneath that it sits on screw could also be hidden but if he's using silicon I would be surprised
> ...


the cistern bit depends on wether or not its close coupled.


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## ivor (Sep 24, 2008)

true hence the brackets it sits on but without phots it's like shooting in the dark


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## Dodoalan (Nov 24, 2009)

Why don't you tell him your unhappy and give him a chance to rectify the faults. Your far better speaking to him before you do anything else. good luck


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## Magic Detail (Jul 25, 2010)

Thanks for your replies! I'm glad it is not just me then, and from my description alone a few of you have already agreed it seems to have been carried out to a poor standard.

All these photo's are from Tuesday this week, a day after he had told us he had "finished" so these aren't whilst the job is still in progress, it's complete in his eyes...

Airing cupboard - as you can see, no space left on that shelf, and due to the feed from the loft coming down into the pump, I can't fit another shelf in. Also note the expanding foam to hold the pipework to the shower head in place (and not to mention it's also all over the shelf and door frame - I know it has a habit of going everywhere, but still...) You can also see the exposed earth wire and a nice 2nd hand plug he's used for my pump 










Now I'd have thought, and I don't know if you'll agree, but it would've been easier to mount that pump on the floor, run the piping into the loft up the left hand side by the copper pipes which already come from there? The other pipes I'm sure would have been able to be fitted using some elbows to keep it neat and tidy? you can also see the wooden frame where my other shelf used to go - but it wont fit back there due to the piping being in the way.

I agree that countersunk screws holding the shroud for the wall bracket in place doesn't effect its working - however, the bracket itself is only held onto the wall with 3 screws through the grouting (hidden by shroud) rather than the 6 recommended through the pre-drilled holes. I wouldn't say I was being OCD about it, because all the screws were supplied as a fitting kit, so don't see why he's strayed away from that to use his own - I have no idea where the correct screws are either as he's tidied up the boxes everything came in.

Damage on floor tiles;



















Silicone stopping the cistern hitting the wall - it's worse on the other side, but I couldn't get a good shot of it. There are pre-drilled mounting holes in the back of the cistern to btw.










Exterior waste water pipe from toilet with wood wedged down the side to stop it from moving. Should have been pointed up.










Other side of it - you can see where the old toilet waste water pipe exited the wall, packed out with paper, again I believe this should have been pointed up and could easily have been done whilst all the pipework was removed?!  All of the exterior piping requires pointing, none of the exits, new or old, have been done.










Pipework in the loft, and all the water from the leak (this was prior to me and my dad fixing it, because by this stage I'd had enough)..










The leak itself, which he is adament it was not leaking when he 'finished' the job on Monday. Of course, you can see by how wet everything is in the previous picture it had been leaking probably since the tank was refilled..










Inside the tank;










Plastic washer which had failed because it was fouling on the bracing;




























So what do you think then? Am I right to be disappointed? I'm not 100% sure from a legal standpoint where I am with it all - because he was doing this as a cash job.. for the removal of old suite and his first fix and prep prior to the tiler arriving I paid him £460. All of what you see above is the results of 12hrs (over the course of a whole week) plus parts, for which he was originally asking £550! but said he'd discounted it down by £200 to make it £350 "due to the inconvenience I've had" and the fact I'd had several leaks (he stopped the toilet leaking last week, along with the sink!). This was why when it leaked in the loft it really was the final straw, especially since he said he'd finished whereas I think it's nothing like finished!! He's now demanding this money which as yet I haven't paid him as I'm unhappy with his work - he hasn't even offered to sort it out!

I've had no quotes, no receipts, no invoices, and not signed anything - so just wondering where I stand?

Cheers,
Matt.


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## ivor (Sep 24, 2008)

I would be onto the trading standard there is not a single piece of level pipework in those photos it looks to me like someone who has done a part time course and decided he's good enough to do work on peoples houses I doubt very much if he has anything in the way of certs 

Hole in the wall he could of used expander foam and then cut it back to render the outside 

Pipework should of been level and straight 
pump as I have said should of been fixed in place 

Personally I would get an independent plumber in and get his take on it as well as a quote to put everything right as it looks to me like you are sitting on a timebomb waiting for a leak to happen


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## P4ULT (Apr 6, 2007)

Well i have to agree it does not look like this guy has a lot of pride in his work.

is the w.c a bock to wall pan as that might explain the gap as the floor and wall need to be exact to get a nice fit. i hate them with a passion.

as for the screw i always use my own not sure why just habit. also there is nothing wrong with screwing into the grout if that is where the holes line up. and i personally fill in all holes but a lot of plumbers state that any remedial/builders work is not part of their quote unless agreed otherwise.

asto where you stand im not really sure as you dont have a written quote but it certainly sounds like you have had fun.

IVOR

the problem is you dont have to have any certs to do plumbing. and agreed with the pipework as the one connecting to the tank looks well dodgy. im not sure wether to agree with you on the pump as i cant remember ever fixing a pump in place on saying that i havent done one for quite a while.


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## lofty (Jun 19, 2007)

I would give him one attempt to put everything right.If he cant or wont keep the money and pay someone to correct the work.Electrical work carried out in a bathroom needs to be done by a part P electrician.


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## Magic Detail (Jul 25, 2010)

Thanks again for the replies! I have an independent plumber coming round tomorrow - have made him aware of the situation, he's happy to come and do an assessment and quote to put everything right. So will see what he says in the morning. Really appreciate your help here guys, Ivor and Paul, thank you very much. 

Paul: the cistern isn't designed to be flat to the wall I don't think, there are holes for screws/bracket at the back to support it and stop it hitting the wall and moving when the toilet is in use. I'm not bothered about the brackets being on show or anything, it just seemed to me like he'd done a dodge and couldn't be bothered fitting it correctly. As it stands the cistern moves, which can't be right, surely? The only thing stopping it hitting the wall is the silicone blob I showed you, which currently acts as a shock absorber.

It all just seems very slap dash. I am glad you guys are on my wavelength regarding the pump - for me it should be situated on the floor at the base of the tank and the pipework neater, to run alongside existing pipes. I shouldn't have to lose both my shelves. Also, what do you think or the wiring?

Cheers,
Matt.


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## P4ULT (Apr 6, 2007)

i think the best thing you can do now is see what the guy that comes round suggests. good luck.


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## Mirror Finish Details (Aug 21, 2008)

That pump should be wired into a proper spur and not on a 13a plug. It also needs signing off under Part P.
Toilets ususlly sit flush to the wall, some use the screws to attach but I found they often go rusty and become a sod to remove, a bit of sticks like **** works and gives a bit of flexibility.
Personally I would have put the pump in the loft and then ran the shower pipes down that right wall, then make the pump a nice ventelated box with some unsulation on it. 
Did he take the feed for the hot off the hot water feed of a proper essex/surrey flange? If not the pump will have a very short life due to the bubbles of air in the top of a hot water cylinder.
Pumps don't require fixing down, they need to vibrate on their feet.

Has he used inserts on the plastic piping, if not then you will have some fun in a few years??

That ball valve on the cold feed will starve the pump of water as they are only 4mm through the ball, you need a full bore gate valve.
Pump input should also be piped in 22mm pipe work, a bit if 15mm is acceptable.

Was the room fully tanked, ie floor and walls fully water proofed and tested prior to tiling, grout alone is not waterproof. Was proper cement based adhesive used, was the tiles and adhesive the correct weight for the walls? 

I still fit wet rooms if you need any help on that, I just don't do any plumbing anymore I sub it out.

Looks a real crud job to me. 

Not fitted a bathroom for years but this was all standard practice when I was.

Good luck


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## Magic Detail (Jul 25, 2010)

Cheers Steve. Yes, all the tanking and waterproof taping of the joints etc was all carried out by the tiler. He is very very good, I have absolutely no problems with the work he has carried out, despite the plumbers best efforts to make a mess - he has definitely put a dampener on things for me and my missus, literally with all the leaks we've had. 

Just found another two leaks tonight actually! one of the exit pipes from the pump running to the shower valve hadn't been nipped up properly (or it had vibrated loose?), and another was on a piece of copper pipe coming up from the floor - doesn't run anywhere, just goes to a stop, but it was the stop which was leaking.. 

Anyway, I'll see what this other plumber says tomorrow and take it from there.

Thanks again.
Matt. 


PS - never thought I'd be asking for plumbing advice on a car care website lol.


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## Mirror Finish Details (Aug 21, 2008)

Amazing what you find on DW.

the pump should have 4 gate valves fitted, 22mm for the input and 15mm for the output.

Looking at the pics I think he has tied the hot input into the house feed unless I am wrong and can't see enough of the pic. Totally against any pump manufacturers warranty and his piping does not meet water regs.

If you need a 3rd opinion just give me a buzz.


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## tommyzooom (Aug 15, 2009)

That piping is a mess, not to mention the wiring!!!
The flexible pipes from the pump are not designed to be bent over like that, They are to stop vibration noise being transferred to the pipework.
All it is doing now is restricting the flow


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## kh904 (Dec 18, 2006)

I'm no plumber, but that looks awful!
He's just cut corners to do be in and out as quick as possible.

Tbh, if he's done a job like that, i just couldn't have trust in him to do it fix it right. It's not simple little snags that would be reasonable, just a total bodge job.

If possible don't pay him, tell him to take everything out and start again with someone else - next time get some evidence of their previous works. 
Keep a diary of pictures & issues should he try to take it legal, but the lack of paperwork, cash in hand etc on his side could go against him.


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## rockape (Feb 18, 2007)

like mf i was a plumber. nothing new there to me, seen plenty of that sort of work that i've had to put right.
All pipe work should have been run true and clipped.
pump should have been on a plynth and secured to the floor.not unusual for this to be fitted in the loft either.
electric supply to a switched spur.
exterior work (waste pipe) should have been made good.


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## Magic Detail (Jul 25, 2010)

I had another plumber around today, and also an electrician to take a look at that wiring which I was concerned about. Steve; turns out both had the same train of thought as you regarding the essex/surrey mount for the hot water feed. He said the pipes shouldn't be bent over like that either, they can be bent a bit but not by 90deg! Infact one of the exits to the shower has actually been squashed a bit as its so far bent, restricting flow! The electrician actually suggested the cabling used for the spur and plug was illegal and not up to standard. Said it should wired directly to a proper spur, shouldn't be any need for a plug. 

So I feel a lot happier about things thanks to the advice on here and now from the 2nd plumber and electrician. But unfortunately I still have to deal with the a$$hole who left me in this mess, and tell him again that he isn't getting any money because... Blah blah blah.


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