# Thank god I only bought samples



## M15ley (May 23, 2006)

Bought some Lime Prime and Ioncoat NaviWax Dark samples to do my black BMW - thanks god I didn't buy the full size bottles.

The Lime Prime is an utter nightmare to remove, goes on easily enough and I can get the think off OK, but it leaves an awful haze behind that simply WILL NOT come off through regular buffing or even washing!! I resorted to having to degrease the whole area again to get it off.

The NaviWax is just as awful, only this time the problem is with the application, it just binds on to the applicator and goes hard almost like dried candle wax - utterly awful products both of them.

Don't know about other peoples experiences but I certainly couldn't recommend either of these products to anyone - beware!!


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## Igloo (Oct 18, 2009)

How're you using lime prime, and for what purpose?

Not had a problem myself applying by hand as a pre wax cleaner?


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## nick-a6 (Jun 9, 2007)

Either have I, infact i think lime prime is a great product


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## Avanti (Jan 17, 2006)

I have not used either, but if you had difficulty with just one product fair enough, but 2 out of 2 seems odd, when you say LP was difficult to remove , how do you mean? As I have used MER polish and Autosmart carnauba gold with ease, both reputed to be difficult to use products.
Could it be your techniques?


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## RandomlySet (Jul 10, 2007)

could be your technique... never heard anyone complaining about LP TBH!


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## justina3 (Jan 11, 2008)

I tried lime prime myself last week as a sample and straight away ordered the full size, awsome bit of kit I found it went on nice and almost fell of on its own, 

as eveything in life each to there own


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## M15ley (May 23, 2006)

Could well be my technique. I first applied LM with a brand new, dry microfibre applicator pad. I worked small patches (10-12" square) in circular motions and buffed off with a brand new Monza dual pile buffing cloth. This is when I first noticed the residue left behind that I simply couldn't shift.

On a different area I tried with a slightly damp, new microfibre applicator - same issue and also with a new dry AND new damp foam applcator - same issue again.

No matter what I tried I was always left with a slight residue that I just couldn't shift, it was like it had baked onto my car.

So whats wrong with my technique guys - all help and guidance welcome?


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## Avanti (Jan 17, 2006)

M15ley said:


> Could well be my technique. I first applied LM with a brand new, dry microfibre applicator pad. I worked small patches (10-12" square) in circular motions and buffed off with a brand new Monza dual pile buffing cloth. This is when I first noticed the residue left behind that I simply couldn't shift.
> 
> On a different area I tried with a slightly damp, new microfibre applicator - same issue and also with a new dry AND new damp foam applcator - same issue again.
> 
> ...


Apply with a sponge applicator or polishing cloth, buff off with the microfibre, thats my recomendation :thumb:


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## nick-a6 (Jun 9, 2007)

was it in direct sunlight? or was the panel warm?


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## Shug (Jul 13, 2007)

Lime prime may not be for everyone. I tried it once and then sold the bottle. Much the same experience as you.


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## RandomlySet (Jul 10, 2007)

how much product you using?
what colour car?
are you in sun or shade?
how long you working it for?


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## rubbishboy (May 6, 2006)

M15ley said:


> So whats wrong with my technique guys - all help and guidance welcome?


Sounds like it's drying on the paint, how long are you leaving it before buffing?

My preferred technique with Lime Prime (and Lime Prime Lite) is to apply with a slightly damp foam applicator, small amounts of product, working small sections at a time. Thoroughly work it in and then buff *immediately* with a fairly short pile microfibre. If it does dry too quick a spritz of water will get it going again and you should be able to buff off again without too much drama.


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## Oakey22 (Feb 12, 2010)

i normally use LP with the rotary, couple of passes at 900rpm, then step it upto 1500 rpm for a couple more and back down to 900 for a couple more. Always seems to leave a brilliant finish.


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## Gandi (Dec 18, 2007)

I used LP last weekend quite a sunny day, applied via D/A one panel at a time then buff off again, it was incredibly easy TBH


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## Dodo Factory (Apr 11, 2007)

Yes, as Ben says, the LP is being left on too long.

On some paints, mainly blacks and reds, minor UV damage causes microscopic pits in the surface of the clearcoat. If a product is left on too long, it seeps into these pores/pits and you can't buff the residue out so it looks smeary.

It is actually a paint defect causing the problem, not the product. Using it as a wipe on/wipe off product prevents this from being an issue. We will make this clearer on packaging in the future (when we reprint labels for example).

In the meantime, reapplying product and then removing it quickly can 'suck' it out of the pores and remove the smearing. Rewashing or wetting can dilute the emulsion and therefore remove it, or you can wait for it to wear off/evaporate over a few days.


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## andy665 (Nov 1, 2005)

I used LP for the first time yesterday via DA, very easy on and off but didn't wait too long as it was a warm day and it was on to dark paintwork


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## chunkytfg (Feb 1, 2009)

Could it be that the residue let behind is what is actually supposed to be there?


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## Planet Man (Apr 12, 2008)

Never had a problem with LP. First thing I thought of was maybe a reaction with something already on the paint, as you had the same reaction with 2 different products, but then LP is a paint cleanser

As Dom suggested could be a paint defect. :thumb:

I did some paint correction by hand with it on a BMW using a Red-Z foam applicator pad with no issues.


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## M15ley (May 23, 2006)

OK, it is a reasonably warm day but the car isn't in direct sunlight and I left the LP on for no more than 30-40 seconds before trying to buff it off - just stuck like glue - maybe just not the product for my paint job, simple as that


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## Dodo Factory (Apr 11, 2007)

How old is the paint? Any product with oil type ingredients could be causing problems - is it an older BMW like an E30/E36 and is it on the roof/bonnet?


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## M15ley (May 23, 2006)

Dodo Factory said:


> How old is the paint? Any product with oil type ingredients could be causing problems - is it an older BMW like an E30/E36 and is it on the roof/bonnet?


Its an E46 and was treated to a full correction job less than 3 years ago - http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=47325


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## Dodo Factory (Apr 11, 2007)

Bonnet/roof?

E46 is old enough to have UV damage.

Prior correction doesn't mean much in itself. UV damage is UV damage. It can happen at anytime after a car leaves the factory, with or without subsequent paint correction.

Craig himself (Muddy Detail) used to be a Dodo detailer and used Lime Prime extensively, IIRC, so it may be worth asking him if he ever used it on your paint and what results he got.

Lime Prime is generally fine to use without any issues whatsoever, but as I mentioned, the oil 'hologramming' you experienced is common with many products (typically waxes or glazes) when 1) overapplied, 2) underbuffed, 3) left too long to cure, 4) buffed too early (a bizzare one, normally with waxes, where a thin layer of fresh product is actually reapplied accidentally during the buffing stage) or 5) when the clearcoat has mild UV failure (pitted/porous clearcoat) - typically reds and blacks, bonnets and roofs, older cars rather than newer ones.

Try some of the product on the doors for example, or another car, and see what it is like to work with.

We try and help people get the best out of our products, which work extremely well for most who use them, but we are saddened when a message goes out on a forum saying 'beware' a product when the chances are it will be nothing to do with the product itself but the method of application or the paint it is applied to.


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## -Ally- (Mar 6, 2009)

Overrated.


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## -ROM- (Feb 23, 2007)

AllyRS said:


> Overrated.


Are you purposely trying to be obnoxious and abrupt?


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## grant_evans (Mar 2, 2008)

AllyRS said:


> Overrated.


helpful

im think its clear that this is not down to the product, never heard a bad thing said about lime prime.


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## Guest (Apr 9, 2010)

Guess thats his opinion on the product mentioned.

Some will agree, some wont.

Thats the thing with forums I suppose.


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## alan_mcc (Oct 28, 2008)

AllyRS said:


> Overrated.


Explain what it didn't do for you to make it overrated?

It gave one step correction (via rotary w/ polishing pad) for me and it was the perfect base for a wax too. Now that's impressive.


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## -Ally- (Mar 6, 2009)

Sorry, I should of put IMO. Rmorgan you are the biggest wannabee I have ever seen on this forum, do you like the spicegirls?

I think everyone should be allowed to openly criticise any product, without the "fanboys" saying "you can't dislike that" or "DJ is excellent, I even feed my children on it"

Ally


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## -ROM- (Feb 23, 2007)

matt1263 said:


> Guess thats his opinion on the product mentioned.
> 
> Some will agree, some wont.
> 
> Thats the thing with forums I suppose.


Yeah but there's a way of expressing your opinions in a way that's constructive and adds value, as opposed to throw away remarks like the above.


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## grant_evans (Mar 2, 2008)

matt1263 said:


> Guess thats his opinion on the product mentioned.
> 
> Some will agree, some wont.
> 
> Thats the thing with forums I suppose.


i agree everone will have their own opinion, but is there any need to open a thread with the sole intention on slating the product? ask people for advice on getting the best from it and what could be causing the problems, but slating a good product when chances are its down to user error is out of order.


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## Guest (Apr 9, 2010)

rmorgan84 said:


> Yeah but there's a way of expressing your opinions in a way that's constructive and adds value, as opposed to throw away remarks like the above.


Whilst I agree with you (on this point), not all members express themselves in an eloquent manner.

Is it a throwaway remark thou?


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## Guest (Apr 9, 2010)

grant_evans said:


> i agree everone will have their own opinion, but is there any need to open a thread with the sole intention on slating the product? ask people for advice on getting the best from it and what could be causing the problems, but slating a good product when chances are its down to user error is out of order.


Hmmmmmm.


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## alan_mcc (Oct 28, 2008)

Grant, it's irrelevant, but can you reply to my pm please?


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## -ROM- (Feb 23, 2007)

matt1263 said:


> Whilst I agree with you (on this point), *not all members express themselves in an eloquent manner.
> *
> Is it a throwaway remark thou?


Yeah i agree, but look at his previous post history and you'll find he is not one of them.


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## -Ally- (Mar 6, 2009)

grant_evans said:


> i agree everone will have their own opinion, but is there any need to open a thread with the sole intention on slating the product? ask people for advice on getting the best from it and what could be causing the problems, but slating a good product when chances are its down to user error is out of order.


So is it a case of,is there any need to open a new thread just to say " I love dodo juice xyz,it's great" ?? or any other product/manufacturer for that matter. It's the same thing, infact I would say his sharing of a negative experiences is more helpful than saying, xyz is great etc. But who am I.


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## Guest (Apr 9, 2010)

I dont bother checking up on others threads to be honest, bit stasi for me :lol:


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## M15ley (May 23, 2006)

Dodo Factory said:


> We try and help people get the best out of our products, which work extremely well for most who use them, but we are saddened when a message goes out on a forum saying 'beware' a product when the chances are it will be nothing to do with the product itself but the method of application or the paint it is applied to.


Not really surprising when the vendor disassociates his product from blame and would rather place that blame/responsibility on the shoulders of either the user or his vehicle.


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## Benji471 (Jan 31, 2010)

I can kind of understand both side of this tale, i have used lime prime a few times now. Today on a dark grey mini i too saw this hazy/oiliness, which i pondered over for a while on half my bonnet. I applied it left it no longer than a minuet and buffed off both off which was a breeze with some light correction. I used SP cleaners to check weather it was something else and reapplied, and it appeared again. 

I came to the conclusion that its meant to be there, and after applying my LSP all was fine and dandy. It does say on the bottle contains oils to help the application of wax and what does oil do... smear. And did it make my wax go on easier? YES. And did it have light correction abilities? YES. Did it cleanse the paint work? Yes the applicator was slight brown so YES. Did it add extra gloss? I believe so, so YES. 

Does it do what it says on the tin YES. 

Job Done, next stage.


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## Dodo Factory (Apr 11, 2007)

M15ley said:


> Not really surprising when the vendor disassociates his product from blame and would rather place that blame/responsibility on the shoulders of either the user or his vehicle.


I hardly think that is fair.

There are thousands of users of Lime Prime and we have seen new users have problems many times before.

For you to slate our product as 'utterly awful' when it is more likely - and I speak from a technical perspective as well as with statistics being in my favour - one of user error or indeed a minor issue with your paint.

Bad workmen, tools etc.

I have tried to be helpful but instead you want to attack us???


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## -Kev- (Oct 30, 2007)

M15ley said:


> Not really surprising when the vendor disassociates his product from blame and would rather place that blame/responsibility on the shoulders of either the user or his vehicle.


10% product, 90% technique


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## -Ally- (Mar 6, 2009)

£10 says this thread get closed,anyone ?


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## chrisc (Jun 15, 2008)

AllyRS said:


> £10 says this thread get closed,anyone ?


you should have said it in a better way ally im all for you saying your opnion as i think a fair few products what get raved about on here are overrated after buying them but adding insults to rmorgan is and will get it closed.:thumb:


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## Benji471 (Jan 31, 2010)

M15ley said:


> Bought some Lime Prime and Ioncoat NaviWax Dark samples to do my black BMW - thanks god I didn't buy the full size bottles.
> 
> The Lime Prime is an utter nightmare to remove, goes on easily enough and I can get the think off OK, but it leaves an awful haze behind that simply WILL NOT come off through regular buffing or even washing!! I resorted to having to degrease the whole area again to get it off.
> 
> ...


Could i also just point out where these new towels and applicators pre washed as well. Something could have been transferred hear as well maybe.

I do disagree with out and out slagging off, personal opinion and preference ok fair enough but come on. Saying Lime Prime is a awful product is like saying a Lotus is an awful track car. Its only an awful track car when not driven to its full potential.


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## alan_mcc (Oct 28, 2008)

M15ley said:


> Not really surprising when the vendor disassociates his product from blame and would rather place that blame/responsibility on the shoulders of either the user or his vehicle.


That's because the responsibility is on you, you admitted it yourself.. I quote..



M15ley said:


> So whats wrong with my technique guys - all help and guidance welcome?


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## ahaydock (Jan 4, 2007)

Right firstly I am not going to close this, but I am going to ask to please keep on topic and leave the personal comments out. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion but please try and keep it professional, constructive and relevant.

IMO LP is a great product, however using too much, or letting it dry in the sun or for too long could have caused it to become hard to remove. However a bit of QD should help this. I use it regulary by machine and hand, and never have problems. A small amount goes a long way, and I buff off straight away.

I have no experience of the Wax so cannot comment.

HTHs :thumb:


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## -Ally- (Mar 6, 2009)

chrisc said:


> but adding insults to rmorgan is and will get it closed.:thumb:


Was more of an observation than an insult to be honest. I'm not one for insulting people.:thumb:


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## Stew (Jul 9, 2007)

To the OP - Might be worth reapplying the LP with the guidance you've received.

I'm no pro but have used LP on a variety of cars and motorbikes so paint varying from rock hard to butter soft and not had any issues.

On the cars it's been done mostly by rotary but I never take a machine near a motorbike. They've been done by hand using a foam applicator and I've always found it easy to buff off and leaft a great finish. To be fair though it's been done in garages and on very small areas. I have got some decent correction from it though.

Give it another go, if you still don't get on with it then move on to something else. No harm in not getting on with a product.


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## MidlandsCarCare (Feb 18, 2006)

This tends to effect LPL more than LP, but I have seen this issue before, but only on ONE car (a black one), and as suggested, a change in technique eliminated this.

Tbf, the instructions do not state a number of these issues (as you'd expect), but at least Dom is showing willing by looking to amend when he reprints - can't say fairer than that.

When you master it, you'll see it's a great product. I mean no disrespect, but hundreds of people on here use it and love it, so to assume it's the product and not the vehicle/technique is a bit unrealistic. 

For the record, I'm far from a Dodo Fanboy, but Lime Prime is a gem (perhaps by mistake!), so give it a chance


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## Mirror Finish Details (Aug 21, 2008)

Never had a problem with Lime Prime and Lime Prime Light, they are very oily but that is what I want from a glaze product. Harder to remove compared to Poorboys Blackhole but sometimes the oily product has it's advantages. Still a crackin product.


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## Blazebro (May 18, 2007)

I've not had a problem with LP as such, I found it as easy to remove/apply as anything else. My problem with the product, and the reason I don't use it anymore and have moved on, is that by hand it didn't do the job I expected it to do. It does very little if any correction by hand.

To the OP, to get rid of the residue simply use a damp MF towel. I infact buff off with the same towel I used to dry the car off with.

I would further recommend perhaps that you look at products such as SwirlX and 3M scratch remover, These are very good polishes that will do correction by hand. Follow these up with a glaze or SRP and you will have some nice looking paint work. With these though you will have to buff with a dry MF towel.


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## WHIZZER (Oct 25, 2005)

AllyRS said:


> £10 says this thread get closed,anyone ?


As Ahaydock Says - IT wont get shut if you can keep comments constructive and professional - So no silly comments please :thumb:

( Thread is being watched by the moderating team and if deemed to step over the rules of the forum the thread will be closed)


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## Leemack (Mar 6, 2009)

I've used LP for ages on probably 50-60 cars of all colours and never had 1 issue.

In fact it has exceeded my expectations when it comes to correction and quality of finish.


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## Ste T (Jul 17, 2008)

one question i dont think has been asked, you said it was a sample, where did you get the sample from?

i may or may not shed some light on the problem,


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## M15ley (May 23, 2006)

alan_mcc said:


> That's because the responsibility is on you, you admitted it yourself.. I quote..


I actually admitted nothing - what I said was that it 'could' be my technique. I then went on to explain the technique I used and nobody has pointed this out as being incorrect. I opened myself up for correction (no pun intended ) but that never materialised - ergo; my technique is not flawed?



20RSport said:


> one question i dont think has been asked, you said it was a sample, where did you get the sample from?
> 
> i may or may not shed some light on the problem,


I got this sample, along with others from Chris at carproductstested. It might be worth me pointing out that once I'd managed to remove LP altogether I tried a very small test area with Dodos Need for Speed and found this very easy to use :thumb:


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## Avanti (Jan 17, 2006)

M15ley said:


> I actually admitted nothing - what I said was that it 'could' be my technique. I then went on to explain the technique I used and nobody has pointed this out as being incorrect. I opened myself up for correction (no pun intended ) but that never materialised - ergo; my technique is not flawed?
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> I don't see why the thread need go into a 'debate' in fairness the OP did not say the products were no good, and the mfrs (well at least one) did not have a rep on here saying their products are the best and one is to use no other.


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## Deano (Jul 7, 2006)

tbh i dont get on with LP by hand. by DA is where its at. the product comes alive. might need working a bit more by hand due to the microabrasives? could be leaving some sort of trail if not broken down? just thoughts and opinions. probably wrong but thoughts none the less. :lol:


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## Deano (Jul 7, 2006)

to the OP. try working it not just applying. give it a bit more elbow grease a panel at a time and see if that helps any. :thumb:


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## Chris CPT (Dec 16, 2009)

Just to put my tuppence worth in. 
I sold Mark the samples and before anyone says it, yes, I _always_ shake up all the full bottles thoroughly before decanting the product, so all the samples are exactly the same. I've never had even one complaint or return yet in all the 100's of samples I've sent out. :thumb:


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## Dave170 (Feb 12, 2006)

Don't post much on here, But I have used Lime Prime by hand on a imperial blue focus and thought it was terrible. However not one to give up after the first attempt tryed on my other car a panther black fiesta, and it worked really well didn't change the way I applied it. However when used with a DA it reallys comes into its own on both cars.


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## -ROM- (Feb 23, 2007)

Dave170 said:


> Don't post much on here, But I have used Lime Prime by hand on a imperial blue focus and thought it was terrible. However not one to give up after the first attempt tryed on my other car a panther black fiesta, and it worked really well didn't change the way I applied it. However when used with a DA it reallys comes into its own on both cars.


I used LP on a rotary to give my car a once over before it gets a full correction and i was amazed at how much correction it actually offered in such little time.


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## Dave170 (Feb 12, 2006)

rmorgan84 said:


> I used LP on a rotary to give my car a once over before it gets a full correction and i was amazed at how much correction it actually offered in such little time.


I was suprised first time a I used it with a DA as only used it with a finishing pad to get rid of some light marring on a wing ended up doing the whole car. I tend to use now more as a finishing polish.


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## Matt. (Aug 26, 2007)

I have used LP on a number of cars by hand, and never had this problem. :thumb:


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## butterbean (Mar 10, 2010)

i like lime prime, also i want to be a mod one day


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## Dodo Factory (Apr 11, 2007)

M15ley said:


> I actually admitted nothing - what I said was that it 'could' be my technique. I then went on to explain the technique I used and nobody has pointed this out as being incorrect. I opened myself up for correction (no pun intended ) but that never materialised - ergo; my technique is not flawed?
> 
> I got this sample, along with others from Chris at carproductstested. It might be worth me pointing out that once I'd managed to remove LP altogether I tried a very small test area with Dodos Need for Speed and found this very easy to use :thumb:


The 'technique' issue was simply that it may have been left too long on the paint and this was brought up very quickly by myself and at least one other person before me. The other issue is a genuine one of paint issues on black/red UV-damage suceptible clearcoats. That's why I asked if it was bonnet or roof, and whether you had tried on your door... this can help people understand if it *is* the paint, the technique or indeed the product. You still haven't told me, so I couldn't help further.

Chris's samples may not come with as much instructions as our own bottles and our website, so this may be a factor. Due to the myriad uses, ambient conditions, paint types and customers of a versatile product like LP, we can only put so much on a label. However, we will reprint Lime Prime labels at some point and we do revise wording when we can.

I'm glad Need for Speed worked well for you.


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## Dodo Factory (Apr 11, 2007)

Avanti said:


> I don't see why the thread need go into a 'debate' in fairness the OP did not say the products were no good, and the mfrs (well at least one) did not have a rep on here saying their products are the best and one is to use no other.


Lime Prime was described as 'utterly awful' and a warning ('beware') was made to the forum... I think that counts as 'no good'. :lol:

We have seen Lime Prime Lite, Lime Prime and even some waxes leaving oil hologramming on certain finishes (typically 'porous' UV damaged clearcoat on red/black roofs and bonnets) or when the products are left too long. This isn't exclusive to these products as oil hologramming is quite common and it is seen a lot with other products made by other manufacturers. It took us a number of months to analyse and work out what was happening on these (rare) instances.

My estimate is that 5% of people who use Lime Prime and 15% of people who use Lime Prime Lite may be at risk of oil hologramming. About 2/3rds of those have simply left it on a bit too long or buffed but accidentally left product on the paint surface, and it is nothing to do with the paint. 1/3rd of the queries were to do with damaged clearcoat. None were to do with the product being a bad batch or being anything other than what it is (although I do admit the labelling could have oil hologramming addressed in more detail).

Spotting the damaged clearcoat is easy enough. You can apply Lime Prime to a door or less UV susceptible part of the car. You can apply it to a different vehicle. If there are only problems with one paint type on one car, it is likely to be the paint, not the product or person/technique.

Removing the oil hologramming is also relatively easy. Reapplying the product and buffing immediately often works, and using water or solvent to remove or dilute the relevant product will invariably be effective. Applying a product over the top can remove the effect. You can even do nothing and leave it for the product to evaporate naturally over time.

There are a couple of technical reasons why oil hologramming occurs. The first is due to microscopic fissures/pits/pores in the surface of the clearcoat (blacks, reds, roofs and bonnets will be hit worst). Oily products sink in and can't be buffed due to the buffing cloth operating 'above' the sunken product.

The second can affect perfect 'non-porous' clearcoat. This is generally where sealants and waxes are involved. In these instances, the product has not been spread sufficiently or buffed thoroughly enough, and it has then cured at these different 'levels'. You are spreading a residue across the paint (the polymer sealant for example), it cures unevenly, different thicknesses of product result at a microscopic level, and visible 'holograms' result. Sometimes these are smeary patches. Sometimes they look like microscopic swirls (typically dragmarks from the fibre of the cloth being used to buff).

This type of hologramming shouldn't be confused with the physical hologramming caused through abrasion (buffer trails).


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## Bulla2000 (Jun 5, 2007)

No problems at all. Lime is very easy to use and the Naviwax is one of the best waxes I ever tried. And after some Swissvaxes and Zymols I can really say, the beading from Naviwax is on the same level.



M15ley said:


> Bought some Lime Prime and Ioncoat NaviWax Dark samples to do my black BMW - thanks god I didn't buy the full size bottles.
> 
> The Lime Prime is an utter nightmare to remove, goes on easily enough and I can get the think off OK, but it leaves an awful haze behind that simply WILL NOT come off through regular buffing or even washing!! I resorted to having to degrease the whole area again to get it off.
> 
> ...


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