# Leather protector



## conor.pharrell (Oct 18, 2006)

Sorry about this guys, but I have looked through the leather care threads and havent found a definative answer to these questions.

Can someone please recommend me a good leather protector?

Is conditioner and protector the same?

Thanks

:thumb:


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## Ultra (Feb 25, 2006)

gliptone liquid leather conditioner is what you want, a no nonsense quality product imo.


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## judyb (Sep 7, 2007)

Conditioners and protectors are *not* the same thing. Leather does *not* need conditioning with anything other than moisture, but it does needs protecting. 
There are several good protectors on the market but I am not allowed to name them as it would be deleted if I did.

Regrads
Judy


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## PhillipM (Jun 7, 2007)

But are protectors marketed as conditioners?


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## judyb (Sep 7, 2007)

Conditioners are not protectors generally speaking.
Some manufacturers have changed their labelling to imply that their conditioner protects leather but this is not the case as usually they have not changed the product in any way.

A protector is a water based fluoro chemical and those that work will definitely be marketed as protectors not conditioners.

Make sure that the supplier can supply a sample of how the protector works so that you know that it is doing its job.


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## Ben Staerck (Oct 28, 2006)

PhillipM said:


> But are protectors marketed as conditioners?


Possibly, but it is more likely to be the other way around.

Car interior leather is pigment and lacquered, and so it is not really possible for anything to penetrate the surface, and so, applying a conditioner will not 'feed' the leather as you would think. However, it may improve the leather visually or by smell, and so it can be a good thing to apply, especially in your industry, where you need the wow factor (I presume).

A protector will add protection to the leather from staining, but with car interior this isn't curcial as the leather is heavily lacquered anyway and so is quite resiliant to staining - a good protector would still make the leather easy to clean. The most important thing to protect car interior leather from is the sun and friction (caused by use), so you should look for these for you car interiors.

We manufacture a leather protector, which will add protection from the sun, friction and staining. It also infuses a leather aroma into the car and will enhance the texture of the leather.

If the leather is cracked or damaged it will also soften as in this case the leather is able to absorb the product. Most of the time though leather keeps itself soft and moisturised through absorbing water vapour via its suede side.

There are many products to choose from, so I sugest you search google and this forum to see what sounds best for you.


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## Refined Reflections (May 12, 2006)

But where does anything say that a product like Gliptone or others do not add protection? Yes its called a conditioner, but we all know when someone talks about polishing paint they could mean using an product that cleans (chemically or abrasives) or they could mean polish using a protector, one word two meanings.


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## Ben Staerck (Oct 28, 2006)

Refined Reflections said:


> But where does anything say that a product like Gliptone or others do not add protection?


Im not sure where it says that. If it does or doesn't is a matter you would need to discuss with gliptone in UK or the manufacturers in the USA.


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## Refined Reflections (May 12, 2006)

Ben, my point is not that Gliptone say this but rather that I've yet to see anything proving that Gliptone conditioner does not add protection. Rather than some in the leather industry suggesting that the best products happen to be those that they sell.


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## judyb (Sep 7, 2007)

It is crucial to protect leather even when it is finished as auto leather is. What you are protecting is the finish which can be damaged by dirt and oils together with friction. Using a water based protector will rehydrate the leather and protect the surface without changing the feel or sheen of the leather.

Conditioners do not protect leather becasue they do not contain the right chemicals (fluorochemicals) to do the protecting. Tests easily prove this and they have been done.

You do need to be careful and use protectors that do work. Many suppliers are now changing their 'conditioners' to 'protectors' without changing the chemicals and so these will not protect your leather. Also there are strengths of protector some which last longer than others.

It is not possible to test the effectiveness of a leather protector on a coated leather such as auto leather generally is. The only effective way is to test on a 'crust' hide which will show the test clearly.

LEATHER PROTECTOR AND SOILS

LEATHER PROTECTOR is an essential element in leather care. Although it acts in some ways as a ‘conditioner' or 'feed’ (by helping to balance the moisture level in the hide) it does not add oils, waxes or silicones. Its primary purpose is to form a barrier between the leather finish surface and any soils that may settle on it.

Dirt can be in several forms:-
Dry soils consist of dust and microscopic particles which act in a similar way to fine sandpaper on the leather finish, when subject to friction (being sat on!).

Sticky residues may be airborne fats and oils (cooking residues), similar things transferred from clothing or spills not properly cleaned up. If they are not damaging in themselves they act as a glue to dry soils that may come into contact with the surface and hold them there making the ‘sandpaper’ effect more destructive, and dusting or wiping less effective as a cleaning process.

Body oils – heads and hands (or any bare skin) are the main culprits but body oils will also migrate through clothing and because of the porous nature, even of finished leathers, will tend to sink into the surface quickly. Of all the ‘dirt’, they can be the most damaging because the acids in the body oils will have a destructive action on leather and leather finishes, causing pigments to break down over time and causing stains on aniline style (absorbent) leathers.

Dye transfer (and ink) although technically not dirt, both of these cause very difficult problems to resolve and need treating as soon as they become apparent. Delay can make them very difficult/impossible to remove.

Leather Protector can reduce or eliminate the destructive effect of all the above ‘dirts’. Good LP's are a fluoro-chemical formulation in a water base. On application the water base will either soak into the leather (conditioning it) or evaporate and leave a porous residue on the surface. This layer does not alter the leather finish in any way but acts as a very effective barrier against the above dirt. But on its own it is not enough. The dirt will remain on the surface and still has to be cleaned off. Because the LP is porous, dirt will be absorbed into it and eventually through it (this property is necessary to allow the leather to breathe).

Although the product and procedures to clean and protect all finished leathers (this excludes nubuck and suede) are the same, not all leather requires the same amount of treatment.
Sensitive leathers, those that absorb moisture easily and surface mark, will need less cleaning but more protecting. Pigment coated leathers need more thorough cleaning but less protecting. Pale pigment leathers will require more protecting and cleaning than dark leather but dark leathers should be cleaned regularly and protected even though they don’t look dirty. Prevention is better than repair.
Two tone leathers can be moisture and scratch resistant but are susceptible to colour loss so should not be allowed to get dirty. Clean them very gently and more frequently.

How frequently leather should be cleaned is a very difficult question. How much and how often will it be sat on? Over-cleaning can sometimes cause damage – just as not cleaning enough does.


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## Ben Staerck (Oct 28, 2006)

Refined Reflections said:


> Ben, my point is not that Gliptone say this but rather that I've yet to see anything proving that Gliptone conditioner does not add protection. Rather than some in the leather industry suggesting that the best products happen to be those that they sell.


yeah, I know what you mean. 

At the end of the day, just use the one that is best for you.


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## Refined Reflections (May 12, 2006)

judyb said:


> It is not possible to test the effectiveness of a leather protector on a coated leather such as auto leather generally is. The only effective way is to test on a 'crust' hide which will show the test clearly.


WOW Judy you have excelled yourself, so now you have said and in writing that IT IS NOT possible to test the effectiveness of a protector on most AUTOMOTIVE LEATHER :lol: . Doing tests on another form of leather IS NOT the same period, its like trying to compare Lance Armstrong to Barry Sheen, both ride on 2 wheels but thats the end of it.

We are talking and working on AUTOMOTIVE leather not crust leather, so I really don't see how you can come on here trying to tell us whats best if even you admit its not possible to test, thus prove something. Emperor's new cloths!!


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## judyb (Sep 7, 2007)

All this proves is that you simply do not understand the concept. Leather is all the same it is only the finish that is different. It is impossible to show how a protector works on a finished leather as you cannot show the absorption so the demonstration and comparison is *always* done on a crust leather. The product works in the same way on both finished and unfinished leathers but cannot be used on Nubuck or Suede.

Please do a little more research in to the subject before you question things you do not understand.

There are far too many people in the leather industry selling incorrect products and giving bad information.


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## Mark M (Nov 29, 2006)

By the sounds of things, your protector does exactly the same thing as say a Gliptone conditioner that I use.

The dirt will still be there, and it will need cleaned.

So if a leather protector is porous, what is it actually doing?

Gliptone is also PH neutral.


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## Ben Staerck (Oct 28, 2006)

judyb said:


> Leather is all the same it is only the finish that is different. It is impossible to show how a protector works on a finished leather as you cannot show the absorption so the demonstration and comparison is *always* done on a crust leather.


I think that was refined reflections point. Car interior leather isn't crust leather and so isn't absorbant, and so they cannot be compared.

You said;



judyb said:


> leather is the same it is only the finish that is different.


That is a huge difference as it is the finish that dictates the correct cleaning and care procedure and products to be used.


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## Refined Reflections (May 12, 2006)

Spot on Ben :thumb: at last someone who lives in the real world  I think we'll have to have a chat after Xmas if possible 

Please drop me an email or PM when you get a chance


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## judyb (Sep 7, 2007)

I was not comparing the leather finishes as you well know. I was simply stating how leather protectors are tested and proved to work:wall: any professional in the industry knows this and simply would not question it.


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## Grizzle (Jul 12, 2006)

Anyone ever used this?? http://www.shipshapenorfolkltd.co.uk/proddetail.php?prod=855_2


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## richjohnhughes (Sep 24, 2007)

as soon as you see the word Leather on a title tread you know its going to be one of those long ones!!

i for one have had enough - going to get the gilptone twins and have done with it.


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## Ben Staerck (Oct 28, 2006)

judyb said:


> I was not comparing the leather finishes as you well know. I was simply stating how leather protectors are tested and proved to work:wall: any professional in the industry knows this and simply would not question it.


I know Judy, but we are talking about the suitability of such a product on automotive leather that has such a strong protective coating on it.

Your protector may help a crust leather from staining, but a car interior leather would not stain in the same way, as it is not absorbant.

When applying a product to leather in the car detailing market you should be looking for one that is visually pleasing for your customer, it should have a pleasent smell and ehances the texture, softeness, smoothness etc etc. Applying a product that only offers protection isn't the best for this industry as the customer will not see the benefit, nor is protection 100% curcial for heavily coated leather like whats in cars.


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## Detail My Ride (Apr 19, 2006)

Its starting to annoy me now this huge leather debate. For a long time, i've been happy with conventional leather products, I used Enziett Leather Care, its a great products and has never let me down. Then, JudyB comes along and tells us all that we are doing it all wrong? Hmm, I think to myself. 

Judy gave me a selection of their products, and I've been doing some testing on them. Firstly, I see no huge advantage over using Judy's range of products compared to other products that many detailers use and have been, and still are happy with. 

I suppost it could be compared to us detailers telling people that over the years, them using Zipwax and a sponge on a sunday morning is wrong, and us coming along with this detailing, and it being a waste of time.

Then again, detailing creates an advantage. Judy's leather advice and products, really don't.


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## judyb (Sep 7, 2007)

Who has said that this is all ours does??? It does all that is required to make the leather feel and look good as well as protecting. Nothing else is required.

A protector is crucial for protected leather as I have previously explained. Protected leathers should not be 'conditioned' other than with moisture. :wall:


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## Detail My Ride (Apr 19, 2006)

Why should they not be conditioned? 

Enziett Leather care is a bit of everything, cleaner, conditioner, protector, and it works perfectly.

Why suddenly should I not be using it? I've never had a problem with it ruining leather. It keeps leather feeling, smelling and looking good.


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## judyb (Sep 7, 2007)

No one says it ruins leather but they can lead to faster deterioration of the finish and subsequently the leather itself.

As there is a protective coating on the leather the products can only sit on the surface. Any oils or waxes etc which the 'conditioners' generally contain do not evaporate and if they are absorbed into the leather it is at an extremely slow rate. The time that they sit on the surface means that they will attract more dirt which together with abrassion will cause damage to the finish on the leather (this is the one thing you are trying to prevent by protecting).

Because the leather has a protective coating on it there is no way you are 'conditioning' the leather itself as the products go no where near the leather itself. Leather does not lose its 'natural' oils by cleaning or anything else so they do not need replacing.


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## talisman (Nov 20, 2006)

i,m stil back to what i decided long ago!!

1-clean the leather with damp cloth.
2-hoover up any light dust/grit/dirt on a very regular basis
3-keep the car out of strong sunlight.
4-keep any chemicals away from leather, avoid oily/dirty/hands and clothing making leather contact
5-use and enjoy!!!

products required none, but this is on a newish car on a older car the fun would really start..........but as the urathane coating would be worn away in most cases then something to hydrate the leather again would be the way to go....not sure what though..

Think the problem with leather care, unlike say wheel cleaning!!is there are so many factors to take into account,what might work on my interior may not in yours,back to the beginning of the thread then i still think there a waste of money for me, but on the posters car they may do what he wants, z and s would,nt make products that would harm leather anyway....so for me at this moment i shall stick to my routine.............


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## Timmo (Mar 21, 2006)

Forgive Gaz, To coin an old 2dtv phrase over Roooney, 'he is young and Still learning'!! 

Whos to say ones better than the other and judy's gear may be great but as said many times you find a product that works for you and stick with it, after using the croftgate cleaner, cream feeder and oil i was very impressed with it and shall be using that when my gliptone runs out! 

i think what yo uneed to do Judy is get your products out to proper detailers that are at it day in day out to get some good revievs from them good or bad, then maybe your words of advice will become a little more taken onboard rather than the semi argumentative stance hats been seen to be adopted! if samples are offered on here every tom dick and harry rushes for them as free gear is always great but you miss out on the key people that can really make or break a product! instead you get the people that use it on the leather sofa in the house rather than some 4-5 year old dirty seats in a well used car or in other words the perfect test bed!!

i cant comment on your products as i have not had the fortune to use them but maybe if any of the Pro's out there have they would like to say their thoughts!!


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## judyb (Sep 7, 2007)

Our products are used by detailers around the country who have completed our courses and understand the nature of leather and the products they are using. All I am trying to do is give the benefit of years of experience with leather and products to you all so that you can achieve the best results.


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## Timmo (Mar 21, 2006)

Judy, one thing you should understand (i expect you allready do) is that to get anywhere on here without the actual stand up backing of any of the respected Pro's is going to take a lot of time!! 

i respect the fact that detailers all over the country use your gear but not a great deal of peep on here have heard of it let alone use dit!!


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## Ben Staerck (Oct 28, 2006)

First you say this;



judy said:


> Using a water based protector will rehydrate the leather and protect the surface without changing the feel or sheen of the leather.


Then this;



judy said:


> Who has said that this is all ours does??? It does all that is required to make the leather feel and look good as well as protecting.


You said so as; I have quoted above.

Then you say;



judy said:


> Any oils or waxes etc which the 'conditioners' generally contain do not evaporate and if they are absorbed into the leather it is at an extremely slow rate. The time that they sit on the surface means that they will attract more dirt which together with abrassion will cause damage to the finish on the leather (this is the one thing you are trying to prevent by protecting).


So something that sits on the leather is damaging. But inorder for somethign to protect, it needs to sit there, you know this because you say;



judy said:


> Its primary purpose is to form a barrier between the leather finish surface and any soils that may settle on it.


and



judy said:


> On application the water base will either soak into the leather (conditioning it) or evaporate and leave a porous residue on the surface. This layer does not alter the leather finish in any way but acts as a very effective barrier against the above dirt.


So you say a conditioner can cause damage because because it sits there, but your product also sits there? :speechles

Why does your product offer protection when it sits there? but a conditoner instead attracts the dirt? why does the conditioners barrier not offer protection?

You also say that your product doesn't alter the finish, then you say it does.

You are digging yourself into a hole! I think you should stop using scare tactics to try and get people to buy your products. If you had approached this in a more subtle way I think it may have been a different story.

I agree that modern leather needs protecting over conditioning, but thats not to say that what everyone has been using and has had success with since whenever is actually causing/aiding damage.


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## judyb (Sep 7, 2007)

To go back to basics Ben conditioners and protectors are two different products. 
A protector is a water based fluoro chemicals which rehydrates the leather and leaves a breathable residue on the surface which does the protecting it does not contain any oils or waxes which are what attract the dirt and damage the finish if left to sit on the surface. 
Good water based protectors are all you need to protect and 'condition' the leather and they leave the leather feeling and looking good. 

Conditioners generally speaking do not contain fluorochemicals so do not protect the leather in any way.

As a training company I would have thought you would understand this concept.
Please read things carefully before adding comment.


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## dominic84 (Jan 27, 2007)

> When applying a product to leather in the car detailing market you should be looking for one that is visually pleasing for your customer, it should have a pleasent smell and ehances the texture, softeness, smoothness etc etc. Applying a product that only offers protection isn't the best for this industry as the customer will not see the benefit, nor is protection 100% curcial for heavily coated leather like whats in cars.


This is an excellent point and is the reason why Autoglym, Gliptone etc make the products that they do, to sell to the consumer in vast quantities; not because they are ignorant as to what makes a good automotive leather product!

Which like I have said before doesn't mean these products are bad either, I mean seriously would any major manufacturer risk ruining their reputation by releasing a damaging product? No is the answer.

If a product is released and found to be defective (as of course happens) proof needs to be shown and the manufacturer will re-call the product(s) in question. On this note I have never heard of a major car care manufacturer recalling their leather products, so I can only assume no documented cases of damage arising from the use of these products exist.

Ben has come on here with the right attitude - honest advice with no scaremongering or bad mouthing of other products, on the contrary he has even said buy what you is right for you, a statement we would all do well to take on board.


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## WHIZZER (Oct 25, 2005)

Chaps / Chapette's Ok Dw Is a Friendly place and it is Christmas after all ..... 

IT does seem that some are pushing this and others pushing that ... This isnt what DW is about .... 

Reading through again just honest advice and not linked to products seems the best way forward .... so lets try and keep it like that ....


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## Ben Staerck (Oct 28, 2006)

dominic84,

Exactly, its about what the customers thinks afterwards and what you have had the resultsn with.



judyb said:


> To go back to basics Ben conditioners and protectors are two different products.


They don't have to be. A conditioner can offer protection.



judyb said:


> A protector is a water based fluoro chemicals


There are other chemicals that offer protection other then fluoro chemicals.



judyb said:



> which rehydrates the leather and leaves a breathable residue on the surface which does the protecting it does not contain any oils or waxes which are what attract the dirt and damage the finish if left to sit on the surface.


Conditioners contain waxes that may leave a residue, but this is buffed off or too a slip feel. Do you really think someone would make a product that sits there and attracts dirt?

Your theory is right, but the waxes used do not have the properties you suggest.



judyb said:


> As a training company I would have thought you would understand this concept.
> Please read things carefully before adding comment.


Now, please address the point where you say a good protector doesn't alter the finish in anyway. Then you say that yours does (it makes the leather look and feel good).

I don't want to endlessly argue with you, I just think you need to change your attitude as to how you market your products, and slander others (meaning conditioners) and try to scare people into doing it your way.


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## judyb (Sep 7, 2007)

Here here Whizzer.

Unfortunatley things always get personal when Ben gets involved.

I have never slandered any other products in my posts nor have I accused any others of causing damage as has been implied. All we have done is given our expert advice based on combined experience of over 30 years in the industry dealing with only leather and seeing the vast changes in finishing products and techniques. Products have to move on with these changes and this is what we are trying to bring to the forum.


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## david g (Dec 14, 2005)

Maybe a suggestion would be to send out a few samples to some respected members on here and let them judge the prodcuts for themselves :thumb:


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## Ben Staerck (Oct 28, 2006)

david g said:


> Maybe a suggestion would be to send out a few samples to some respected members on here and let them judge the prodcuts for themselves :thumb:


I tried too, but you are not allowed.



Judyb said:


> Unfortunatley things always get personal when Ben gets involved.


:devil:


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## david g (Dec 14, 2005)

Ben Staerck said:


> I tried too, but you are not allowed.
> 
> :devil:


What about sending a sample to Whizzer ,im sure that will be allowed :thumb:


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## talisman (Nov 20, 2006)

david g said:


> Maybe a suggestion would be to send out a few samples to some respected members on here and let them judge the prodcuts for themselves :thumb:


I would be up for that ben and judy, i have my brother in laws 330ci with terrible leather all dull and lifeless!!!, all i did in summer was damp microfibre cloth clean and hoover.....be intresting to see what difference could be made to these seats!!!......................


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## judyb (Sep 7, 2007)

Hi 

If we can see some photos it will easier to establish what results you are expecting. We have different strengths of cleaner for different problems.

Cleaning results will depend on whether there is any micro craking in the pigment and whether there is dye transfer present which will need a slightly different approach. Leather with micro cracking in the pigment will never look 'clean' and sometimes cannot be seen by the naked eye (check with a microscope).

If the seats are in very bad condition then they may need a restoration rather than cleaning and we would be able to see this from the photo.

When you are cleaning leather you have to understand the limits of what can be achieved merely by cleaning when there may be other problems present but testing one cleaner against another will establish their ability to clean.


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## Ben Staerck (Oct 28, 2006)

talisman said:


> I would be up for that ben and judy, i have my brother in laws 330ci with terrible leather all dull and lifeless!!!, all i did in summer was damp microfibre cloth clean and hoover.....be intresting to see what difference could be made to these seats!!!......................


I have no problem in doing that, or sending samples to any person. However, since you have to have permission to do so, its best to wait and see what the admin says.


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## Refined Reflections (May 12, 2006)

judyb said:


> Unfortunatley things always get personal when Ben gets involved.


And I thought it was me who you didn't like, or is it the other way round :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:


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## judyb (Sep 7, 2007)

How childish


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## BMW^Z4 (May 15, 2007)

Try Zaino 9 and 10 ... I like them more than other leather products ...


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## Refined Reflections (May 12, 2006)

Judy, I managed to learn what smilies are used for maybe you could also manage that, now please take a chill pill


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## Exclusive Car Care (Jan 14, 2007)

you upsetting people again Gary:wave:


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## Detail My Ride (Apr 19, 2006)

Gleamingkleen said:


> you upsetting people again Gary:wave:


Gary? Upsetting people? Don't make me laugh :lol: :lol:


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## Spirit Detailing (Mar 29, 2007)

I'm going to put on my NLP hat here and maybe help with the way people think of leather and conditioners.

It doesn't really matter that Judy's (or anybody's) products are excellent because the majority of people with leather interiors suffer from the industry's presuppositions.

If you have leather, the presupposition is that you need a conditioner. This is a classic principle of sales and persuasion techniques and a basic element of hypnosis. Here's an example of presupposition... leather owners rarely ask themselves if they need a conditioner, which is a binary yes/no question. Instead they will ask (or be asked) "Which conditioner do I need" or "Which conditioner is best for my leather". 

The presupposition is that because you have leather it needs to be conditioned regularly... and if you don't something awful will happen to it. Its BS. Unless you can give a valid reason why you think your leather needs conditioning, you should not be applying it. Your leather, in all likelihood, does not need conditioning.

Seriously, is your leather seat hard or stiffening? Is it disintegrating at the edges or cracking and crazing? If it is any of these, your leather does not need conditioning, it needs restoring. Some off the shelf cream will do nothing for it. If your leather seems a little "odd" how do you know if it is the leather or the topcoat that is causing the problem? 

I was in touch with the manufacturers of one very popular UK conditioner and they tell me that it contains "Soaps and Oils". If your car was made in the past 10 years, the leather has a water-borne urethane top coat on it that does not react well to oils. It is chemistry - sooner or later, oil will deteriorate the top coat. 

The conditioners out there offer about the same amount of protection as a water-based dressing, and I would probably recommend using one of them instead of a conditioner. Its safer!

Okay, some of you have already taken on board what I have been saying here for ages, but I will briefly review the issues with conditioners.
1. In cars, you are not working with leather, you are working with the topcoat.
2. The topcoats are water-borne to comply with VOC laws.
3. Water-based coatings react when an oil or a petroleum based product is applied to it.
4. Conditioners have very little active ingredient. Anything that might permeate the topcoat will have little or no benefit to the hide. 
5. Leather conditioners tend to be pH neutral, whereas leather should be kept at approx. pH 4.5. 
6. Leather mainly loses moisture, which can be returned with butyl-free pH balanced cleanser. 
7. Leather is dynamic - it might lose moisture one day and regain it the next, depending on the climate. 
8. Leather that has been over-wetted will stiffen up when it dries, but the suppleness will return with flexing through use. It does not necessarily need "oils".
9. The most important thing you can do with leather is vacuum and clean it regularly with a butyl-free cleaner. 
10. Protectors are not meant to be a force-field or an extra coat of plastic on the surface. They offer extra optional protection, but they don't "proof" the seat. In other words, if a disaster happens, you will be more thankful for having the protection than if you didn't. 

In car-care, I like products that do one thing only. I don't like Wash-and-Wax shampoos as they are not true wax and offer little protection. And I don't like conditioners-protectors as they don't offer the same protection that a specifically designed protector would. 

Its best to filter out the marketing hype and then make an informed decision. Personally, when detailing regular undamaged leather, I clean thoroughly and add a protector. (I use an acrylic-latex long term sealant that I imported from the US). Lastly I spray some leather scent onto the headliner and parcel-tray. It looks good, feels good, smells good. My customers love it because they understand I know what I am talking about.


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## WHIZZER (Oct 25, 2005)

and there was me thinking a wipe down with a wet mirco fiber would do ...:lol: 

Wow we seem to have some knowledgable people on DW and its good to see people chipping into an interesting topic... It would be nicer without all the sarky comments and i can offer this and you can offer that .....

Samples if you want to send out samples contact me I'll point you a few people to perhaps try them and lets see where it goes


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## Ben Staerck (Oct 28, 2006)

sweepy, thats a great post. A few things to elaborate on.

Leather keeps itself moisturised by absorbing water vapour through its suede side - this is why leather in a drier climate is often very hard or stiff. I have found that the best way to soften leather, if possible, is to mist water onto both the suede and top coat side and then flex the leather.

I have also found that if a coated leather is worn or cracked, that applying a product that 'conditions' the leather works very well. Obviously the best choice would be restoration but not everyone can do this or is willing to pay for the service.


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## Spirit Detailing (Mar 29, 2007)

The issue is a double-edge sword, really. Are we to take care of the leather or the top-coat? The answer is take care of the topcoat and the leather will take care of itself. 

I know people are getting sick of a debate where they would only be concerned in the end-result. I don't sell anything here, so I am only passing on information that I have requested and researched over the past couple of years. I started off from point-zero with a mobile valet service and just built on my knowledge as I kept learning. 

So I actually encourage people to contact the technical directors of the manufacturers and request information regarding the ingredients and the amount of active ingredient compared to the "filler" or neutral ingredient. for example, the cheaper car waxes would have a small amount of sealant and a large amount of solvent and indicator / white clay (the stuff that makes the powdery haze when the solvent evaporates). 

In essence, gather your data, weigh it up logically and decide for yourself. 

Sweepy.


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## talisman (Nov 20, 2006)

just caught up with the updates on this thread, looks like we have new guy who knows his beans in ben!!!, and sweepy always makes sound sense...

sweepy can you send me details of the protector you are using please....

talisman


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## Spirit Detailing (Mar 29, 2007)

Hi Talisman.

PM sent.

S.


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## Tiauguinho (May 1, 2007)

Talisman,

You can fully trust Sweepy 

I had a E34 M5 from 1991 which had white leather interior... 16 years of soiling. I asked sweepy for his sound advice (sometimes he says things with sense, sometimes  ). It came out great in the end!

Here are some pictures:

How it was



















How it looked when done




























and a bonus picture of the outside


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## GlynRS2 (Jan 21, 2006)

These leather care discussion threads are all very interesting and I have learnt a great deal. However, as these mystical leather protectors are never mentioned by name they ultimately remain about as useful as a chocolate teapot :wall:
I know the rules on advertising that exist and certainly don't want to see threads where we have people endlessly pushing their own products, but to me that is what we have here but without the names of the products. 
The only way I can see to resolve this is to get some of these products out to people like Gary, who is respected in the detailing community, so that they can be compared to the likes of Gliptone which many of use now with very good results. It seems to me that if certain people don't want to share their knowledge as they run training courses to protect their product secrets they are then faced with the dilemma of how they may actually increase sales. I am not attacking any individuals here, I am just saying such an approach is problematic and we appear once again to have reached a stale mate situation


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## judyb (Sep 7, 2007)

We have no product secrets and are always willing to share all our training and knowledge with anyone who needs them as we prefer people to understand why and how things are done to get the best out of all leathers.(Our training courses are open to anyone who wants to come on payment of a small booking fee). Without a certain level of knowledge about leather and its care together with an understanding of products and why some are good and some are not it would be impossible to give a fair comparison.
Of course superficial testing of look, hand etc can be done by comparitive testing but unless you understand how, you would not be able to test how effective say, a protector was which has been at the heart of the discussion. 

There are many hang overs from old leather treatments which have unfortunately stopped the growth of new ways of thinking about leather treatment and care. The most common one levelled at our product is that it is to thin and watery. The main reason people sell creamy products is because that is what the customer expects to have but we have found our product to be more effective, more cost effective and quicker and easier to apply. We have the attitude that we are selling the customer what they need rather than what they think they want and we regard this as being professional. It is just that old habits die hard and reeducation is what is needed. Products and methods need to move on as the leather industry does.


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## Spirit Detailing (Mar 29, 2007)

Tiaguinho... Thanks... I think! It looks like I will need to give you some photography lessons as well!:lol: Nice exterior finish, btw, for a 91 bimmer. 

Judy, very good point about people needing to change with the times. The top-coat used in automotive leather is constantly changing and evolving. You could expect the system to be changed at least once every year.  

I will be in touch about getting some of your protector. I like the idea that it is thin... how do you recommend the application?


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## judyb (Sep 7, 2007)

The protector is applied through a finger tip spray which means a very fine coating and evenly applied. It also means that no product is wasted on application and this makes it very economical.


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## akhan48 (Nov 25, 2007)

Has anyone tried the Zym0l leather cleaner and conditioner? I am intending to use them on my Mazda Rx-8 leather...


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## Newms (Jun 14, 2007)

Auto Glym leather care? 

Does anyone actually know if thats a cleaner or what???


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## SDP (Oct 17, 2006)

Croftgate do a really nice leather oil and also a protector esp' for rag tops and folding tin tops.

I'm not a leather expert but every time I oil or wax a cars interior, it looks miles better, it smells miles better and my customers love it - so I'll carry on waxing and oiling!


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## cheezemonkhai (Jan 29, 2007)

Which bottle there are two

The browny labelled one that claims it will also leave a silicon free sheen on the dash is just a feeder as such.

I clean with the orange zym0l spray stuff and then when dry treat with this autoglym and do the dash plastics with the same. I apply and wipe off with a microfibre cloth.

IMHO works really really well


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## talisman (Nov 20, 2006)

Hi sdp, please have a reread of the posts on this section and leather care in general......waxs and oils are last thing leather needs treating with!!!!your customers may think it smells wonderfull but how do you know what you are doing to the leather and it,s top coat.....hate to think you might have loads of customers with leather care issues in the future....the info,s all there for the enlightened!!!!!!..........


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## v matt (Oct 30, 2007)

Ok this thread is getting confusing, I have black nappa leather in my car and i use autosmart leather supplement 

Is this a good idea?


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## Refined Reflections (May 12, 2006)

I keep reading all these comments on how conditioners harm leather, but yet again no one is saying how long this will take to happen! are we talking months, years, decades?? If its months give me proof, if its years again proof if its decades sorry I couldn't give a monkeys.

I still say much of what has been written by some is unproven clap trap, I use and promote what I have found to work, not what someone has spoon fed me. Automotive leather is not 100% sealed, its stitched so porous so can absorb conditioning treatments, not forgetting leather that has cracked, and don't say if its cracked get it fixed we are talking about everyday cars not collectors cars that only get looked at, though I will say there are many different levels of cracking some worse than others.


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## SDP (Oct 17, 2006)

talisman said:


> Hi sdp, please have a reread of the posts on this section and leather care in general......waxs and oils are last thing leather needs treating with!!!!your customers may think it smells wonderfull but how do you know what you are doing to the leather and it,s top coat.....hate to think you might have loads of customers with leather care issues in the future....the info,s all there for the enlightened!!!!!!..........


Thank you for the slightly sarcastic response!

I am quite capable of digesting this thread in one hit without any prompting of a re-read by you.

I've been applying a wax or oil to car interiors for a few years now and to date none have suffered any harm.

What I find interesting is that many manufacturers of cars supply them with little tags dangling from the headrests advising you to treat the leather seats every 6 months. Maybe they like me have got it wrong!


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## Ben Staerck (Oct 28, 2006)

SDP said:


> What I find interesting is that many manufacturers of cars supply them with little tags dangling from the headrests advising you to treat the leather seats every 6 months. Maybe they like me have got it wrong!


That would depend upon the type of product they tell you to treat it with. Most car manufacturers are very strict as to what they say works, and will test every product to its effectivness and so if they say it, they're most likely right.

They test to see if it increase the rub fastness of the leather. i.e., if it increase the life span of the leathers coating. This is all they are interested in, as the most common problem in cars is the leatehr wearing away with a few years, especially on the drivers side bolster.


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## judyb (Sep 7, 2007)

In our experience the manufacturers of the item (not the leather) often know very little about its care, maintenance and repair.
This applies across the board from cars to upholstery. We see the greatest damage done to upholstery leather by the use of baby wipes which are often recommended by manufacturers and retailers. 

Leather should be cared for on a regular basis (possibly more often than every 6 months - especially pale leathers) but the choice of product is the key here.


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## talisman (Nov 20, 2006)

SDP said:


> Thank you for the slightly sarcastic response!
> 
> I am quite capable of digesting this thread in one hit without any prompting of a re-read by you.
> 
> ...


I shall leave you to carry on your merry way with the oil and wax treatment as you see fit...your choice, i,m just a little bemused why all the threads about leather care say aviod oils on the surface of the leather and for good reason, yet your post takes us down the opposite road again,any new members or casual readers will over the past few months be very very confused by now..

Leather care has always prompted a fair reaction on the forum, sometimes a tad heated!!!, there are some posters with great input on the subject, and i try to add my help with what i have learnt over the past 18 months, but i feel many are set on using there products no matter what, i shall read and learn more but no longer comment on leather care threads.


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## Spirit Detailing (Mar 29, 2007)

Talisman, don't worry so much. I've been on various car care forums over the years and advice is often not received very well if it conflicts with people's current beliefs or represents something other than the easy way out.
Sometimes moods and writing styles are misinterpreted. There's no avoiding it, but please don't stop contributing. 

Just about car manufacturers care suggestions.... I know a manufacturer in the US who makes a lot of waxes, sealants, etc for pro detailers and also
OEM's specific products out to marketing companies. One of these marketing companies licensed the brand of a German car and released a bottle of leather conditioner (amongst other things) that is almost dishonest. Its just a water-based emulsion with a tiny quantity of lanolin, some dressing and a leather scent. The list price for it is, obviously very high! Essentially there is a huge gap between the techies and the marketing people in the automotive industry, by way of car-care chemicals anyway!

Best regards
Sweepy


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## quattrogmbh (May 15, 2007)

CG's fabric protect is described as being a water based fluoro product. Is this suitable for protecting leather as per the thread above?


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## judyb (Sep 7, 2007)

Test it first to see if it works as a protector on leather. Some fabric protectors are not suitable for leather and really they should have been well tested for leather use before they are used.


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