# Dilution ratios - marketing tricks and ecological reality



## Dodo Factory (Apr 11, 2007)

We never really gave too much thought to dilution ratios before introducing our Born to be Mild shampoo last year at the price of 8.95 GBP for 250mls and receiving some criticsm for the pricing. 'Too expensive for 250mls of shampoo' was the opinion of some, even if we made it to a money-no-object recipe with the best ingredients we had. By hand. In small numbers.

As Henry Royce once commented, the quality tends to be remembered after the price has been forgotten and BTBM now has many fans who appreciate it for what it is. The price came down 20p due to a VAT cut as well. And we also introduced an 'entry level' shampoo in Sour Power for 6.95 GBP.

But a conversation with our chemists soon after BTBM was launched stuck in my mind. They asked me at the time: 'Do you want us to bulk it out?'. This basically means watering down the recipe, quite literally with water and/or specific 'bulking agents'.

I could see no point in this.

Watering a product down means:

1) More packaging (a product at half dilution needs a 1 litre plastic bottle, a larger sticker, maybe a larger cap - compared to a concentrated 500ml one).

2) More weight - a real ecological problem, as a half diluted product generally weighs twice as much as a concentrated one. So you'd transport 100kgs by road, sea or air and have a massive carbon footprint compared to 50kgs. Imagine cutting logistics costs and traffic by half or more in some instances?

3) A potentially false value message. This is the marketing trick so often played on consumers. To lower a price point (noticeable), manufacturers cheapen the product in other areas (concentration). If you get a litre of shampoo for a 5 GBP you would think it better value than BTBM at 8.75 GBP for 250mls. This is how consumers making quick decisions think.

So we decided to keep making our concentrated shampoo the way we always had. Even our cheaper Sour Power is super concentrated.

Of course, the problem with specifically stating dilution ratios is that the dosage really depends on things like hard/soft water and how dirty the car is. You don't want someone under-dosing just to save a few pence and then complain the shampoo doesn't work. So we work out a rough dilution ratio (about 1000:1 for BTBM:water, about 800:1 for SP:water) and then halve it when we write the instructions to allow for error and to ensure it is effective. It isn't a question of encouraging people to use twice as much; we'd be happy if they use less. But if people halve our recommended amounts for economic reasons our products would still work (or should do, in most circumstances... a mud caked car may prove tougher).

Recently, I came across a couple of real world dilution ratios that brought home the scale of the 'watering down' issue. The first was a trade shampoo that needed two MASSIVE capfuls in 10 litres of water. I don't have reference, but my guess was that it was about 250:1 at best.

But then, I found a really shocking example.

It is a major mainstream US manufacturer's shampoo. I won't name and shame but I was staggered.

'Pour 1 ounce or four capfuls of product into a wash bucket and add one gallon of water.'

I measured the volume of the cap myself... 13ml. So you'd need 52ml in a gallon of wash water. I checked the label hoping it was a UK label with a UK gallon. It had a 1-800 customer care number, so I'm guessing we're talking the smaller US gallon (3785ml rather than 4546ml for the UK one).

The comparison:

*The US mainstream shampoo, available in Halfords etc.*
- Capful: 13ml
- Dosage: 4 capfuls per 3785ml
- Dilution ratio: 1:73 
- Product quantity: 532ml
- Product price: 5.70 GBP (where I found it for sale)
- Cost per ml: 1.07p
- Cost per dose: 56p
- Doses per bottle: 10.2
- Cost per litre of wash water: 14.73p

*Dodo Juice Born to be Mild*
- Capful: 7ml
- Dosage: 2-4 capfuls per 20 litre bucket... so let's say 3 capfuls (21ml) in 15 litres (15000ml) as you'd never fill it all the way up
- Dilution ratio: 1:714
- Product quantity: 250ml
- Product price: 8.75 GBP
- Cost per ml: 3.5p
- Cost per dose: 77p (makes 15 litres wash solution)
- Doses per bottle: 11.9
- Cost per litre of wash water: 5.13p

That means the product that costs 5.70 GBP for 532ml actually costs you 14.73p per litre of wash solution, all thanks to the poor dilution ratio.

Whereas BTBM costs nearly a third in real terms, at 5.13p per litre of wash solution, even though it 30% more expensive and you get half as much in the bottle.

And BTBM weighs less than half the weight and uses less packaging.

Of course, the US manufacturer churns out millions of gallons of their shampoo and ships it all around the world. And we sell a paltry amount of our product by comparison. From a marketing perspective, we could compete on price if we diluted our product - but from an authentic, ethical and ecological perspective we'd rather do things the 'right way'. If a consumer has to be educated to know they're getting a good deal, we'll just have to educate the market. More of a challenge than lowering a price, but we like a challenge.

Interestingly, some washing powders etc are now going for concentrated products in order to save packaging, just like fabric softeners have done for years. All under an eco banner...


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## backzilla (Oct 31, 2008)

i love this product. i did almost cry when it arrived the size of the bottle but its fantastic. you dont need much to get good suds. great smell as well. keep up the good work guys.


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## GSVHammer (Feb 7, 2009)

Interesting reading. I’ve never tried any Dodo products so I don’t know how good they are. I’m new to this detailing (I’m at the valeting stage at the moment). I’ve been guilty of buying my products from the main high street chain until I discovered this forum.

The problem I have now is the amount of products that are available to buy, each claiming to be better than the competitors. Also with these products you have to buy them from a specialist retailer which is normally via the internet and that incurs postage costs. I know some retailers here offer free postage over a certain price and a Detailing World forum discount. These are the retailers that I will support.

Once my current stocks are depleted I may try something new. I’ll be sure to keep any eye out for comments left by fellow forum users on which product to buy. After all we all have our favourites.

Thanks Dodo Factory for the food for thought post.


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## Hair Bear (Nov 4, 2007)

So, the American shampoo is simply overdosed, the consumer using an unnecessary amount? 

If the American shampoo is capable diluted at another 2-3 US gallons (to match the BTBM mix ratio of 15 litres or thereabouts) it would be as cost effective roughly per litre of wash water as the Dodo?

But it's a third less expensive for over twice as much?

Packaging, weight, eco-friendly or not - consumers will still go for value for money every time. A very small percentage will be brand loyal.

Pardon my maths if I'm way out


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## Bigpikle (May 21, 2007)

Nice post Dom :thumb:

..rather like the old shampoo marketing "rinse and wash again..." to get you to use 2x as much product 

Concentrated product that uses less packaging, less to ship around etc etc has to be a great way to go. And when its a product as great as BTBM as well, its a winner.


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## Dodo Factory (Apr 11, 2007)

The chances are the American shampoo NEEDS to be dosed a lot to get it to work. It is not about overdosing but correctly dosing.

Overdosing would be when a manufacturer says 'use more' because you'll then get through the bottle quicker, with no need to actually use as much as you do.

But if you reckoned you could eke out the American shampoo to 2-3 gallons (let's say double as this is all we'd suggest), you could also eke out BTBM to say, 2 capfuls (14ml), and it would be 1071:1 - even if theirs is now 146:1

It's just maths, what's written on the manufacturer's labels, what capfuls contain in actual volume. There is no sleight of hand. 

I agree re consumers going for price. We could also sell on price, but we won't. We'd just rather not, even if we sell less as a result. Consumers get misled every day but we won't do so knowingly ourselves.


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## Mr Face (Jan 22, 2009)

*The Power of Quality (ROI)*

Hi Dom,

Thanks for the information. I am sure I speak for the majority, if not then I am out on my own again (not the first time) :wall:

I will always pay for quality what ever it is !! if and only if I can justify the purchase and cost. Where this breaks down is when you are buying identical items and are looking at two different supplier ( i.e. compairing 250ml pots of Supernatural  ) one at lets say £90 and one at £60 even then I would question is the cheaper one a fake  ) (we have had this conversation before)

What a lot of suppliers forget, what ever they have developed and are trying to sell is that the consumer will often want to justify the purchase to themselves or the bean counter in their home and as such if help is given, what looks like a more expensive initial purchase can easily be purchased when the 'dilution; facts are known 

Quality is always King, no one really wants to buy cheap and cheerful unless they have to!

p.s. got BTBM and love it :thumb: love the Dodo

Mike S


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## Mr Face (Jan 22, 2009)

apologies for spelling this morning, brain still in neutral:wall:.


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## Hair Bear (Nov 4, 2007)

Mr Face said:


> Hi Dom,
> 
> Thanks for the information. I am sure I speak for the majority, if not then I am out on my own again (not the first time) :wall:
> 
> ...


Fair point, but both products could be considered 'quality products'.

A £20k Mondeo is a quality product, like a £100k Aston Martin is. But two different animals. Results are the same. They get from A to B.

More Mondeo's are sold to carry out this basic function, with value for money and good quality. Aston's less so, because they are expensive and exclusive.

Apart from the GT40, why do Ford not pursue the £100k car market?


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## Mr Face (Jan 22, 2009)

Hair Bear said:


> Fair point, but both products could be considered 'quality products'.
> 
> A £20k Mondeo is a quality product, like a £100k Aston Martin is. But two different animals. Results are the same. They get from A to B.
> 
> ...


Hi Hair Bear :thumb:

I agree with you in part and take on board your comment re the GT40 but would ask JC the question is it really a quality product? however your comparison between a Mondeo and an Aston is akin to comparing a Mondeo with a horse and cart, they both get you from A to B and are most definately two different animals

An Aston is in my honest opinion a lot more than a car, its a work of art, a life time of desire and something to grin at everytime you open your eyes and look at it. It's something to make you smile and a most of all something I will one day be able to grace my garage and my old bones with. An addition but still important benefit is, it will still get me from A to B when I want to go out

Fortunately we all still allowed to have different opinions and can view quality in a different way. i.e. buy more BTBM :thumb: when we want to pamper our paintwork.

Mike


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## Hair Bear (Nov 4, 2007)

Mr Face said:


> Hi Hair Bear :thumb:
> 
> I agree with you in part and take on board your comment re the GT40 but would ask JC the question is it really a quality product? however your comparison between a Mondeo and an Aston is akin to comparing a Mondeo with a horse and cart, they both get you from A to B and are most definately two different animals
> 
> ...


Agreed mate, all about healthy debate :thumb:

My Ford/GT40 was more about the market they're aiming at - whether GT40's are a quality product isn't the point. My point is that Ford will aim at high turnover, accessible products at affordable prices with value for money and quality included.

Selling a few exclusive marques here and there mean nothing to them - financially. Or ethically (carbon emmissions and the like).

My point is that most people, when making a choice, will always plump for value for money - when both products are considered good quality. Only a few will, or can, go the whole hog regardless.

Sorry for dragging this OT slightly Dom, but honestly I'm struggling to see the point you're trying to make?

Quality? Quantity? Eco? VFM? Performance? All of them? :lol:


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## reparebrise (Jan 19, 2009)

Dodo

Great post. When evaluating a product I always take into account the dilution ratios and factor that into the price.

One example is compounds, our business deals mostly with dealers, and they all have there own "detailing" department. When they get a dark car they call us in to do the compound. We do them on the spot , and do not worry that the dealer will copy what we do, because they have no idea what ROI is. We use pads that are 2-3 times the cost of theres, and our compound is twice the per gallon cost. When we tell them the cost of our compound, they raise there eye brows and say thats way too expensive. The compound they use requires 4-6 ozs of product to do a car, and with there pads and techniques it takes them 4-6 hours to do a good correction, and in the end they have a nice swirl pattern on the car. While using our seemingly more expensive products we do a better and swirl free correction in under 1/2 the time, and at a much lower cost. The compound we use requires only 1oz to do a car, so yes the bottle costs twice as much, but the per use cost is half as much. The more expensive pads allow us to do the work in less that 1/2 the time, so even at $10 per hour we more than cover the price of the pads in labour savings every time.

Pads used are Lake country foamed wool and tufted foam, compounds are from Optimum.


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## Dodo Factory (Apr 11, 2007)

Hair Bear said:


> Sorry for dragging this OT slightly Dom, but honestly I'm struggling to see the point you're trying to make?
> 
> Quality? Quantity? Eco? VFM? Performance? All of them? :lol:


Basically, it's a point that it is an absolute waste of the earth's precious resources transporting and packaging more product than you need to.

The US manufacturer in question could easily sell their product in a more concentrated form in smaller bottles. It could be a quality product and to people's liking, so no debate there. But at the moment it is needlessly wasteful in packaging and transportation.... all for what? To attract customers who respond to a fiver for half a litre of shampoo as a price point. Because often people don't look at the product closely when comparing price. They go - product = shampoo, capacity = more, price = less... the dilution ratios aren't on the radar.

So we could either dumb down our products, create extra waster and a bigger carbon footprint - and sell a sh1t load more shampoo.

Or we could just carry on doing super-concentrated shampoo that many consumers will dismiss for being too expensive.

It's a green vs a commercial decision.

The sad thing is that even ignoring the eco issue, people *could* be paying more per litre of wash solution, when they buy an inferior product that has a lower perceived price. Who is winning? Just the manufacturer. Customer and planet still lose out. That's either clever marketing or ripping off consumers, depending on your perspective.

BTBM (conversely) has a higher perceived price, but a lower actual price per litre of wash solution.


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## Relaited (Jan 27, 2009)

Dodo,

Interesting, I have been an advocate of dilutions. So, product aside, here is my rationale.

I have not seen different packaging or bottles used to ship different concentrations, always see the exact same 1 gallon bottle used, so I discount the environmental impact of packaging, as I do not see it in use.

However, the environmental and economic benefits are very real. It costs about $20 to ship a 4 gallon box, or about $5 per gallon. If one ships ready to use, vs a 10 to 1 dilution … I pay 10 x the shipping, so my cost of goods is significantly affected, not to mention labor to handle the extra boxes.

Most products, not all are stable at higher concentrations, can be produced at lower costs per net gallon. But not all products are water based. NOTE: Another reason to avoid waterless products that are solvent / petroleum based … mix like oil & water!

You save on environmental impact because you either have smaller loads and or less frequent deliveries. This really comes into play in some of our higher volume locations like at shopping malls.

Most of the products we used have some level of dilution, so the more the merrier.

So, for me, highest possible concentrate and dilute on sight works best.

-jim


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## Throbber (Apr 28, 2007)

Thanks for posting, it's really interesting.

Although the scary thing is, the dilution ratio for the "American" one is the same as the Werkstat one I have just bought, 30ml/1oz per gallon.:doublesho

Oh well, it's here now so I'll see what it's like.


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## Rich00p (Feb 19, 2008)

I've never really considered dilution ratios before, with my gold class I just open the cap shutter, point and shoot.. no wonder I'm going through so much lol

I must confess I have purchased GC in preference to other more bespoke brands simply because it's readily available though, however I've always really loved the Dodo ethic so will have to jump on board the next time I need some shampoo


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## Jesse74 (Jul 19, 2008)

Nice post Dom, it makes what we spoke about the other day even clearer :thumb:. I think another thing that people are forgetting is that these, like the American product, are products for the masses... a consumer item. Therefore usually when people see something like it on the shelf or wherever, they're blinded by "a gallon of car shampoo for that price". Even if they do look at the dilution ratio, which most people don't (OK the pros and people with OCDs here would, but we're not the "average consumers" of these products), their mind is still focused on the bang for the buck so they still think, "OK I have to use a bit more soap, but look at how much I'm getting... wohoo!" And they never stop to think about the actual cost of it. Again, these are consumer products so they want you to use more and they engineer their products in a way that forces you to do so. The next time you watch a hair shampoo commercial, a hand soap commercial or something like that, pay attention to how much product they use on the commercial... they glob the stuff on! My wife does the same thing and it makes me nuts... Anyway, hats off to the Dodo boys, because of their honesty and openness about their products... well and for making kick-a$$ products too . They've helped me realize, both directly and indirectly, quite a few things about products and the way they're cunningly marketed and "inflated". Sure I'll still buy things like Swissvax because some customers demand it regardless of what I tell them, but aside from the quality of products they make their business conception and geniality have made me a Dodo fan for life... long live Dodo!


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## Relaited (Jan 27, 2009)

As an American, I am not blinded ... isn't this an issue for the marketing Team? Easy to blame the consuner ... but I have worked for some of the biggest and the best, and yes I worked for SmithKline, that was Brtitish. So I believe any good marketer can overcome this issue.

I see it done all the time in Laundry Detergent.

Too convenient to blame the dumb consumer .. how about sharing the appropriate blame with the Marketing and Packageing Team?

IMHO - jim


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## Dodo Factory (Apr 11, 2007)

True Jim... it is often driven by the company rather than the consumer. I know we could sell a lot more shampoo diluting it and selling it cheaper in bigger pack sizes... it takes a brave and rather stupid businessman to resist the fast buck but we're young and dumb enough as a company to make these kind of decisions out of stubbornness and a lack of willingness to conform or perpetuate the status quo


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## Gruffs (Dec 10, 2007)

Applies to all products too.

I have some Sanex face wash. When i bought it, i used the usual most of the palm amount and spent about 5 minutes trying to get the stuff off my face. I soon worked out that if i use a LENTIL size amount, it will still do the job (i.e. i'm clean and grease free). I've had the bottle well over a year.

I usually 'point and pour' with shampoo. But, i may well have to re-think this with my Sour Power now. So, although you have prolonged the sale Dom, you'll still get another from me.


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## chunkytfg (Feb 1, 2009)

As a recently enlightened consumer i have been amazed how little you acutally use when mixing with water.

I always bought what i perceived to be the best(megs gold class) shampoo but used to just bung a load in my single bucket.

Now i have BTBM and bilthamber auto wash and just cant beleive how long it lasts.

the BH auto wash only needs 5ml per normal bucket(10ml for dodo buckets) which is rediculous. I have even taken to using a small syringe to make sure i use the right amount and dont waste any!!!


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