# Mirror Finish Details Wet Sanding Tuition.



## Mirror Finish Details

*Another successfull Mirror Finish Details course; Wet Sanding Tuition.

Another course with people travelling form as far afield as Scotland to attend.

The plan for the course was to take the detailing bar to the next level, as the majority of calls I get nower days are to remove the dreaded Orange Peel. Hence the course as the guys attending want to remove it from their cars. But, have not done so yet after all the myths of sanding through the clear or making a total mess. A few of the guys have attended my machine polishing courses so this is the next level for them.

The plan for the day was to wet sand my daily runner a E46 BMW. I only picked this up in November due to the engine on my Volvo giving up at 210,000 miles; so whilst I wait for a new puffer for it the BMW will do. This is a car that was company owned untill 2007 and then owned by a Doctor till I bought it. Has been well looked after after as it is really shiney but it only ever saw the local car wash, and when you look closely you can see all the marks. And Orange Peel. So before the course I gave it a treat and drove it through the car wash to save time washing it on the day.

As we all know it is impossible to completly wet flat a car in a day, so we were looking at a real good level of flatting and retaining as much clear on the car as possible.

I set up a laser light on the roof onto the boot and using both my paint gauge and Phils from Shinearama that were recently calibrated we both got a reading on the red dot of 121um. The readings inside the boot lid and under the carpet were averaging 67um and the average readings on the body were 128um; plenty of clear to go at.

As this is a 2000 car the orange peel is not as bad as some younger cars I have done recently. The process is still the same.

The Big Suprise.

The biggest thing that stops people wet flatting the car is the fear of removing too much paint. Today put that myth to bed and the guys were quite astonished at how little clear was removed. I did say I would remove less clear than attacking the car with a heavy compound and pad. I have seen removal rates with 3M fast Cut with a green pad of over 12-20um just compounding alone plus the heat it generates.

We started off on the boot lid at 121um. Started with 2000 grit paper well soaked and lubed. By hand with no block the initial passes were done. Checking the work ofter, a water blade will help here and save on lots of cloths. After several passes it was time to blade off and check the readings. Both meters were still showing 121um, with just the peaks taken off.

A further session on the lid and the paint starting to matt with the troughs still showing we still had a reading of 121um on the laser light. Around the light we has 120,123 and 124um; so very minimal removal.

Another pass with 2000 grit this time with a backing block to really bite the paint and get past the shiney blobs which are the troughs we had a reading of 120um. Dropped back to 2500 grit for a session, then bladed off and dried leaved a pretty matt finish with some sanding marks, reading 120um, so we are taking some clear off and levelling the paint.

Next passes with 3000 grit and several passes we bladed the car and you could see the paint taking a shine again but looking totally matt.

Final pass with 4000 grit by DA to really flatten the paint, take out any marks and prep ready for polishing. Paint reading by now was still 119um.

So, we had wet sanded the whole boot lid, removed all the swirl marks and a lot of scratches and only taken off 2um of clear.

These readings were pretty consistant as the guys worked along the sides of the car.

I polished out half the boot lid with the DA with the Megs DA polishing system and after 2 passes to almost complete correction the reading was down to 115um. Only 4um removed for the polishing out of the wet sanding. So to go from Orange Peel to almost complete flat paint with all the swirl marks gone and great depth to the paint I only removed 6um of clear. Bearing in mind a heavy compound will remove more and remove little orange peel you can see the benefit of wet sanding.

As said, it would be impossible to remove all the peel in a training course, so some is still in; this is for the advanced dry/wet sanding course of total flattness and complete removal. The car looks 100% better and I know a few of the guys will be wet flatting soon.

To recapp; wet flatting removed less paint than heavy compounding, heavy compounding does not remove orange peel as the foam pads conform to the peel in the car. Remove the peel and swirls with a removal rate of about 6um. It is moving the bar upwards but in a very safe and controlled way.

Anyway less waffle and some pictures.

A bit of house work, taping the gaps is a must as the slurry is a real pig to remove once dried.

















Not the best looking boot lid.









Lots of car wash marks and orange peel.









Does not look too bad from a distance, but is covered in swirls and car wash scratches.









After 2000 grit wet paper.









Note the datum point, really important.

















50/50 flatted and polished out.









Still a bit of peel but 100% better then it was and no swirls or car wash scatches.

























Wet sanding in action on the sides.









The slurry from the clear.









A flatted door. A few bits missed but hey it is a training course.









Polishing out. Various machines, pads, polishes were used to polish out and everyone had their preference. Everyone was amazed at how easy the paint came back to life from the matt sanded paint we had a few minutes ago.

















Some finished shots. There is some peel still left but for a one day course the finish is superb. The car will be used again for the advanced course where we will go for 100% peel removal. All shots straight from the camera, no photoshop used.


















































































































Another successful course and looking forward to more this year.

Planning an advanced wet sanding course in March where we will completly level the paint on the car.

Feb's course will be a full clean and enhancement detail course.

As pointed out this was not a 100% wet sand, but what we achieved with minimal paint removal was astonishing.

Cheers for reading and any comments good or bad always appreciated.

Many thanks to Shiney Phil at Shinearama for his support.

Group, one to one courses available. Plus if you want your car doing just give me a call.

Cheers
Steve*​


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## Alzak

I'm in for next wet sanding training need some help with my technique.


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## PrestigeChris

awesome looks like a nice relaxed class!


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## The_Bouncer

Looks like a brilliant day - super results :thumb:


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## CTR De

would love to attend one of these , you can never know too much


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## Leemack

Nice one dude

Looks great


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## Trip tdi

Amazing, its surprising what wet sanding can do the finish, 100% correction there, not for the faint hearted for sure.


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## SimonBash

Was the sanding being done by hand without a block (megs foam sanding block for example)?


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## MidlandsCarCare

Much improved - very nice work!

How did the removal rate of the Megs MF system compare to the wool?

Would you normally start on 1500 on harder paints rather than using 2000 twice?

Also what benefit do you find 4000 gives? Did it add much to the finish?

Russ.


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## JBirchy

Steve,

Superb day out and I really learnt a lot. My confidence with wet-sanding was greatly improved and the techniques learnt were superb. Very informative day that I would recommend to anyone.

Also, Shiny Phil's hospitality was superb, taking the time to talk through the basics with some more inexperienced attendees, and on hand to offer great product advice! So much so, i ended up spending over £75 on new detailing gear!



RussZS said:


> Much improved - very nice work!
> 
> How did the removal rate of the Megs MF system compare to the wool?
> 
> Would you normally start on 1500 on harder paints rather than using 2000 twice?
> 
> Also what benefit do you find 4000 gives? Did it add much to the finish?
> 
> Russ.


Hi Russ,

One thing I was surprised about was how quickly the Rotary and Scholls new S2 Orange Compound removed the hazing and put lots of clarity back into the paint. I tried both, and I must admit i preferred the rotary. (That's me polishing the rear wing by the way! :thumb

I do know that after the Megs MF System for cutting on the boot, we swapped to a Blue 3M pad and Scholl S40 for refining, and after all that, the level was still at 118um, so only 5um removed in total.

From what i remember, the wool was about the same, but I did give it 2 sets with wool, 1 set with the polishing pad and Scholl S2 (finishes down very well!) and then a very long refining set with S40. So the methods were slightly different.

I think there was around 6-7um removed from the rear wing.

Great course though, highly recommended!

Jon


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## JBirchy

SimonBash said:


> Was the sanding being done by hand without a block (megs foam sanding block for example)?


Both methods were explored. We initally started out with no sanding block, just to feel the inital cut through the paper. No pressure applied, but the feel is quite surprising.

After that, the 2500 and 3000 grit sessions were done with a Megs sanding block.


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## chch

My wife has Titan Silver BMW E46 2005, full of swirls, rids, you name it. It's a gift from my father in law, mechanically in superb condition, but of course he used standard car washes. Just this saturday I tried to find the appropriate combo for getting it sorted. I have Makita rotary, Makita wool pad, Wolfs cutting pad, Wolf's polishes 1-3-6. My test bed was the boot lid, which I taped to work only on half of it to get 50:50.

After 3 passes with Wolf's polish 6 (The Equalizer) and the cutting pad (didn't try the wool pad), then one pass with medium polish I get the very thin hairs out of the clear. 2 hours of hard grease elbow. Unfortunately the rids and deepers swirls were still present. I'm tempted to try the wetsand, thanks for giving me the confidence.


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## JBirchy

You've got to try wetsanding. Im sure it will sort it out! However, im also sure that WP-6H and a wool pad would significantly knock back the swirls, so quite surprised that it didn't do much with your paint.

As long as you keep measuring the paint depth, you will be fine with the wetsanding and as you can get amazing results!


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## chch

So I just tried it. You might remember, that I tried to polish only the half of the boot lid on Saturday. So I masked the other half today, and took a deep breath. I have only 2000, 2500 and 3000 grit sandpapers, I left them to soak in slightly lubed water for 10 minutes.

I wetted the lid with a sprayer and started with 2000 grit. My paper was constantly stuck on the panel (adhesion), it was very hard to make it move. I had to find the proper finger grip. I went over the panel like 25-30 times, constantly spraying the panel. The I moved onto 3000 grit, did the same thing. After drying the panel I was looking at hazed sadness.

I have no paint thickness meter, so everything I did was a huge risk. I'm a bit lucky a body shop owner with Standox paints is my friend. The backup plan was a respray if my test would be botched.

Next I took my Makita, and spilled some WP-3N on cutting pad. I wanted to know if the Medium polish can get back the gloss, I didn't wanted to go for WP-6H. My problem was quick panel overheating, as I was working only on half of the lid. After two passes the gloss was back. After checking the panel after IPA wipe I found that I was too conservative with the sanding. Deeper rids are still present, but there is only few of them. Their corners are rounded, so optically they are hard to spot.

Comparing to the panel I did last time only with polishing the gloss is better, and the best news is, that I did the same work on half time.

Big thanks to Steve for the clues and the pics which gave me confidence, and Jon for support


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## JBirchy

chch said:


> So I just tried it. You might remember, that I tried to polish only the half of the boot lid on Saturday. So I masked the other half today, and took a deep breath. I have only 2000, 2500 and 3000 grit sandpapers, I left them to soak in slightly lubed water for 10 minutes.
> 
> I wetted the lid with a sprayer and started with 2000 grit. My paper was constantly stuck on the panel (adhesion), it was very hard to make it move. I had to find the proper finger grip. I went over the panel like 25-30 times, constantly spraying the panel. The I moved onto 3000 grit, did the same thing. After drying the panel I was looking at hazed sadness.
> 
> I have no paint thickness meter, so everything I did was a huge risk. I'm a bit lucky a body shop owner with Standox paints is my friend. The backup plan was a respray if my test would be botched.
> 
> Next I took my Makita, and spilled some WP-3N on cutting pad. I wanted to know if the Medium polish can get back the gloss, I didn't wanted to go for WP-6H. My problem was quick panel overheating, as I was working only on half of the lid. After two passes the gloss was back. After checking the panel after IPA wipe I found that I was too conservative with the sanding. Deeper rids are still present, but there is only few of them. Their corners are rounded, so optically they are hard to spot.
> 
> Comparing to the panel I did last time only with polishing the gloss is better, and the best news is, that I did the same work on half time.
> 
> Big thanks to Steve for the clues and the pics which gave me confidence, and Jon for support


Glad you've got the confidence to give it a go! It is better if you have a PDG as you can constantly check you are still safe with the clearcoat level, but hopefully you can get some great results!


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## Alzak

I will never try wet sanding without PDG fair play to You


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## indydulay

Yet another fantastic course by Steve!

I only knew the very basic's of wet sanding and would never of dared too of tried it but Steve explained in detail and let us all have a go and will most defiantly be giving it ago on my car full of orange peel, would recommend Steve's courses to everyone, they are a must, top bloke!

Also a big thank you to Phil from Shinearama for his great hospitality.


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## james_death

Thanks for posting the followup to the day Steve...:thumb:

As stated very easy to take a good deal of clear off with compounds, lot less taken off with wet or dry sanding....

Lovely work there folks....:thumb:


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## Mirror Finish Details

james_death said:


> Thanks for posting the followup to the day Steve...:thumb:
> 
> As stated very easy to take a good deal of clear off with compounds, lot less taken off with wet or dry sanding....
> 
> Lovely work there folks....:thumb:


It is a real suprise as how little is taken off wet sanding compared to compounding. It is definately taking detailing up a level, as it seems daft compounding a car for the amount of clear it removes and does not remove the peel. A lot of customers are very taken back at the finish it delivers with such little paint removal.

Thanks for all the replies everyone and to Jon for his input!!!

Looking forward to the next one now, need a recent VW or BMW to be a donor car.


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## Jakub555

good job there guys


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## Ns1980

I'm amazed at the results achieved with that little clear coat removal. 

Very tempted to have this done to my car now....


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## Jakub555

I done today wet sanding ( I think 10th time ) on my scrap lovely black bonnet ( german one )
took me around 2h with machine polishing, no hurry, I had the time

:thumb:
what a result guys :doublesho
go for it guys
is not as hard as looks


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## Mirror Finish Details

Ns1980 said:


> I'm amazed at the results achieved with that little clear coat removal.
> 
> Very tempted to have this done to my car now....


I do cover the country. :thumb:


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## collector

very nice


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## Lourensz

Is tehre wet sand training in uk, Im in Milton Keynes? Anyone near by?


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## Bill58

Kelly at KDS has done courses. Steve from Mirror Finish now lives in Texas.


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## Kelly @ KDS

Bill58 said:


> Kelly at KDS has done courses. Steve from Mirror Finish now lives in Texas.


http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=318086

kelly


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## Mirror Finish Details

Yeah guys give Kelly a call he can do wet sand courses.

I could always arrange a weekend course and fly over


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## svended

Mirror Finish Details said:


> Yeah guys give Kelly a call he can do wet sand courses.
> 
> I could always arrange a weekend course and fly over


I'll be in charge of the George Foreman again and do the sausage abd bacon butties. Lol.


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## Albert81

I would love to participate in the training course


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## rhinoman

Albert81 said:


> I would love to participate in the training course


Me too, when's the next one Kelly?


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## Buck

Albert81 said:


> I would love to participate in the training course





rhinoman said:


> Me too, when's the next one Kelly?


Guys,

Steve has moved over the pond to the gold ol' USA so it'll be a long way to go for the course! 

As Rhinoman says, Kelly @ KDS plus others do run similar courses...


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