# ONR and its 'dirt encapsulation'



## Zeddd (Mar 2, 2014)

I have been using ONR for all my regular washes since 2013. My main motivation was not so much the eco friendly aspect but more the time saving aspect. I was quite impressed with the claims of those being able to wash a car in 20mins and have been trying to emulate that ever since.

Sadly, I have failed.

It takes me two to three hours minimum to do the whole car including door jambs, wheels and wheel arches. Now I'm starting to wonder whether I'm being too cautious in my method?
I frequently dunk and rinse my grout sponge in the bucket (after every two or three 'swipes' per side) to ensure I'm not dragging dirt over my paint.

Then yesterday I came across this:





The guy does a whole panel in one swiping motion. And from what I gather he's quite the experienced and respected ONR user and advocate so surely he knows something I don't?

Do the ONR polymers encapsulate all the dirt so well that it makes it safe to drag it around? How many of you do it that way?

My main reason for using a grout sponge is the dirt releasing capability but I find that a MF towel picks up dirt more effectively. Problem is the dirt never leaves the towel when I try to rinse it off so I shy away from that medium, fearing that the dirt on the towel will mar my paint. Does the ONR encapsulate the dirt on the towel making it safe to take a 'dirty' towel to my paint?

Is there anyone here that uses MF towels or MF sponges? What are your views and experience on this?

I'm really curious to know how the 20-minute guys do it. If you are one of them, I would love to hear your method.

Thanks for taking the time to reply.


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## waqasr (Oct 22, 2011)

Ive used ONR with a mf sponge and it seemed ok, though ive never really used it on my car when it was very dirty. It also has never taken me 20 minutes either and ive got a 3dr hatchback so not exactly a big car. I guess it is just being very cautious. To be honest I dont know about all the dirt encapsulation but I wouldnt be dragging the sponge across a whole panel either. I dunk the sponge at least twice when doing my bonnet. No doubt pete will be along soon who will answer your question.


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## silverfox830 (Apr 4, 2014)

Having a car the size of a bread box helps.


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## jmsc (Jun 13, 2012)

@Zeddd:

did you do a power wash first then an ONR wash?


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## lowejackson (Feb 23, 2006)

Zeddd. Couple of things spring to mind. Firstly, I am one of those who can give the car a quick wash in 20 minutes but a full wash will take longer. Secondly, the main thing is are you happy to spend an hour or so washing the car?

I use a noodle mitt but if you are happy with the sponge then don't change it. Have you seen his other video where he shows the benefits of prespraying the paint. Although this looks at comparing ONR with a snow foam it also shows how ONR really does help start to lift the dirt from the paint even before touching it with a mitt/sponge






Edit. Forgot to add, you have probably seen them but just in case there are some helpful videos on the ONR FAQ


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## Zeddd (Mar 2, 2014)

jmsc said:


> @Zeddd:
> 
> did you do a power wash first then an ONR wash?


In the past I didn't but now I have a rainwater tank so yes I do a pre-rinse of the whole car before starting so I know I'm not ending up with water spots after two hours of it sitting on the panel.

Doesn't seem to change much in the time it takes tbh.

I must admit though that the power wash itself takes about 20 mins because I also rinse the outer parts of the underbody (under the bumpers and sideskirts) and the wheel arches which are lined with felt (what's the easiest way to clean those btw? A brush catches the felt and 'sticks').

After that, the ONR takes almost two hours.


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## Zeddd (Mar 2, 2014)

@lowejackson

I systematically pre-soak my panels with 1:16 solution of ONR for about 5 mins before washing. Sometimes I find the solution 'flows around' the heavier parts of crud rather than sitting on it. It's almost as though those parts are repelling the solution. I don't know if it's because the dirt is instantly absorbing the solution causing the illusion or if my solution is too strong. On my last wash I stepped down to a 1:20 pre-soak solution with similar results.

I am not happy washing my car for more than two hours. I am trying to bring it back to an hour or less because I don't have that much spare time to wash. knowing that it takes 2hrs+, I end up washing my car less often. So yeah if I can keep it at an hour or so I'll be happy. 

What is the difference between your quick wash and your full wash? How long does your full wash take?

I used a noodle mitt for a while but I had that 'dirt sticking on the media' problem. Do you experience that as well?

Thanks for posting the video. I have seen it before. I have read (and seen) quite a bit about ONR methods and reviews on many forums so I'm quite familiar with the various methods people have come up with. I should by the way thank lowiepete for his excellent guide on ONR which served as my bible when I had just started using it.


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## toni (Oct 30, 2005)

How large are your wash areas and how many times do you go over an area before drying?
I think these are the main differences in people's time differences.

I do my power-washing at a local gas station, so that doesn't take more than 5-10min. That's another place where you could rush things a little.

For ONR try to cover larger areas without rinsing and do fewer passes. Since you're using ONR for almost 2 years now you should trust it enough and now it's that good and prevents scratching. If the car isn't caked it mud (and it shouldn't be after power-washing) you could do half a door in one go, switch the sponge to the other side, wash again and dry. Maybe do another pass before going to the next half if it's really dirty. Going to the rinse/wash bucket takes time, so try to minimize it.


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## lowejackson (Feb 23, 2006)

Zeddd said:


> @lowejackson
> 
> I systematically pre-soak my panels with 1:16 solution of ONR for about 5 mins before washing. Sometimes I find the solution 'flows around' the heavier parts of crud rather than sitting on it. It's almost as though those parts are repelling the solution. I don't know if it's because the dirt is instantly absorbing the solution causing the illusion or if my solution is too strong. On my last wash I stepped down to a 1:20 pre-soak solution with similar results.
> 
> ...


16:1 or 20:1 is far too strong, the QD dilution rate is 64:1 and normal wash is 256:1. Stronger dilutions will not improve the cleaning.

When you say 'dirt sticking to the media' do you mean ONR is staining the wash mitt. If so, this is normal and will not interfere with the washing

"We do hear that question a lot. It is normal and shows part of the safety of the products. The way NRWS (No Rinse Wash & Shine) works without a presoak or rinsing is because the substantive polymers bond to the paint quickly to keep the surface lubricated, emulsify and encapsulate dirt to prevent maring, and leave behind a polymer shine. In order to do that, the encapsulation process will allow large, harmful particles to sink to the bottom of your bucket, and the smaller, soluble particles will actually be broken down so small that they are tiny enough to be pulled into the fibers of your wash mitt. That is why you need a detergent/degreaser to make them release. That isn't necessary with tradition shampoos because they are usually nothing more than soap and don't provide the level of safety that NRWS does.

The good news is that the stains are not harmful in any way. Particles small enough to be absorbed by the fibers are not a danger. One thing many have discovered is that foam wash media does not stain to the level that microfiber does. We offer the Opti Mitt for this very reason. It is made from the same soft foam used in high quality foam finishing pads so it is very safe and effective with No Rinse or traditional washes." http://optimumforums.org/index.php?showtopic=2210

As good as ONR is, there are obvious limitations so if there is an inch of mud on the panels then maybe a jet wash would be a wise decision. If I am in doubt then I will occasionally spray either Opticlean or Power Clean before using ONR


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## Zeddd (Mar 2, 2014)

Sorry brain fart I meant 1:64 for QD. I usually think in terms of ml per Litre and I use 16ml per L which is 1:64. 

Yes I meant the wash mitt becoming dark from the dirt and it doesn't rinse off. 
Interesting piece of info concerning particles being broken down. Wasn't aware of that. Thanks for the link.


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## sm81 (May 14, 2011)

http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?p=4092376#post4092376


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## Zeddd (Mar 2, 2014)

@toni

I wash the whole car before drying. I use rain water for my pressure washer rinse and all ONR mixes so I'm not worried about water spots. 
I usually go over an area twice before moving on the next section. On more heavily soiled areas (like near wheel arches) I will make as many passes as it takes to get the panel clean (it can go up to 5 passes). I rinse my sponge whenever both sides are visibly stained with dirt. 

I agree that minimizing my trips to the bucket and drying towel is the key to saving time. I trust that ONR will safely lift the dirt from my paint "if used properly" but I guess I haven't yet grown to accept that dragging it around the whole panel can be considered "proper usage". 
I guess it's as simple as thinking "if I can safely pick up dirt at point A and drag it to point B in a single pass, I can just as safely drag that same particle from A across the whole panel".


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## Lowiepete (Mar 29, 2009)

Zeddd,
Posts like yours really worry me! It just makes me sad that someone is 
hugely over-thinking their wash routine and thereby making it much riskier
than ever it needs to be.

While I understand the need to give the underbody a good rinse out at this
time of year, the remainder of your routine does need a bit of a re-think. I'm
shuddering at the thought of you spending 2 hours in temps at or below 
5degC! I do hope you're dressing up warmly!

My first reaction is to invite you to relax. If the car has good under-body
protection, then a good rinse at the end of winter is fine. Every time you aim
water, with force, at it, you will undermine it. That's the real nature of the
beast. Remember, if you hit a weakspot, the water will undermine it further
and you won't know until too late. Also, if it needs remedial work, it's better 
to be doing rust protection when there's no salt about.

I've had my car 6 years, and the most it gets annually is a good hosing down 
before its MOT in March. The guy who does the testing _always_ remarks 
that the car looks like new, both above and below the usual eye-line.

The next point I'll make is that every time you touch your paint, you _risk_
marring it. Let me underline what I'm saying; I'm not claiming that you _will_
mar your paint, just that the risk exists. The reason I raise this is because I
feel that you can _safely_ reduce your number of passes, and therefore the
marring risks that go with them.

Currently, there's a lot of hot air being expended on using strong chemicals to
do a simple job. Be assured that your use of ONR is far wiser than those who
choose, even advocate, sledgehammer solutions. When you use a pre-rinse
you will reduce the effectiveness of ONR if you apply it to a wet surface. The
way it works best is on a dry surface. That way, what's behind the dirt is
potion that will lubricate its way off, without further dilution.

The starting point is a dilution of 32:1, especially in winter. Leaving it to dwell
on the paint for 5 minutes is about 4 minutes longer than is really necessary. 
The other thing to overcome is to "gather" the dirt. It's much better to let it 
just float off and drop to the ground. No-one gains by gathering it.

The idea behind ONR is to let it penetrate and get behind the dirt, then, by a
series of a few deliberate, yet gentle, strokes of the mitt, just help it on its 
way off the surface. There is no suggestion that you "gather" the dirt for it to
be transferred to the wash bucket. There are no prizes for how much you can
gather.

For winter washing, probably a noodle mitt is the best option. It gives you the
opportunity to carry as much cleaning fluid as is needed, without wastage.
You can squeeze out enough liquid before physical contact is made, and then
just "help" the dirt on its way, with a few gentle passes.

Don't be concerned at the discolouration of a noodle mitt, that happens. Just 
don't examine the water when you rinse it out with normal dish detergent, 
prior to putting it into the washing machine. Actually, if you do examine it, it 
will prove just how good ONR is at encapsulating the dirt. So, don't be too
concerned.

Now, to the controversial bit. Not _all_ dirt that you remove from your paint
is abrasive. Certainly, if it's sandy it is. If it's salt granules that haven't fully
dissolved, then there's equal danger. However, the greater majority of "dust"
is actually rendered harmless by the ONR. That's why I can claim, with some
authority, that you can relax.

The whole point of using a cleaner like ONR is to make the washing process so
much simpler, and therefore quicker. No-one is inviting you to take risks by
trying to beat the 20 minute deadline, but equally, two hours or more does
raise some concerns.

Once you have the worst of the dirt off, then you can very safely follow up 
with the ONR bucketless wash. That will help overcome any fears you might 
have over water-spotting. So, in essence, relax and enjoy...:thumb:

Regards,
Steve


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## sm81 (May 14, 2011)

Is Ultima Waterless wash and Wolf's Wash&Wipe as good your opinion?


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## hansen123 (Aug 11, 2013)

lowejackson said:


> 16:1 or 20:1 is far too strong, the QD dilution rate is 64:1 and normal wash is 256:1. Stronger dilutions will not improve the cleaning.
> 
> When you say 'dirt sticking to the media' do you mean ONR is staining the wash mitt. If so, this is normal and will not interfere with the washing
> 
> ...


Actually, Optimum recommends 16:1 for QD, 64:1 is claylube. They don´t advice ONR as QD anymore that their own QD has landed, but many used it like this (me included with great results for bird droppings and so on)

I use incredimitt with ONR (many people use that as far as i can read) and im pretty happy about it. I don´t know how long it takes, maybe ½-1 hour or so. The thing that takes the longest is the boot and door jambs.


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## lowejackson (Feb 23, 2006)

hansen123 said:


> Actually, Optimum recommends 16:1 for QD, 64:1 is claylube. They don´t advice ONR as QD anymore that their own QD has landed, but many used it like this (me included with great results for bird droppings and so on)


I stand corrected. Although for removing bird droppings I use a much lower dilution ratio and it still works perfectly.


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## hansen123 (Aug 11, 2013)

lowejackson said:


> I stand corrected. Although for removing bird droppings I use a much lower dilution ratio and it still works perfectly.


Pretty sure it will also do fine at claylube ratios, we just have some crazy birds, don´t know what those suckers are eating, but they sure as hell can destroy car paint if you don´t lube it real good before attacking it


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## lowejackson (Feb 23, 2006)

hansen123 said:


> Pretty sure it will also do fine at claylube ratios, we just have some crazy birds, don´t know what those suckers are eating, but they sure as hell can destroy car paint if you don´t lube it real good before attacking it


I guess I have become lazy when it comes to thinking about dilution ratios. I keep a 500ml bottle in the car for quick cleaning duties eg bird droppings or even just a quick wipe of the interior trim. I probably should work out the correct dilution but so far my one cap per 500ml seems to clean everything with the minimum of fuss. Cannot remember what I use for pre-spraying but it is far less than the clay lubricant (64:1) ratio and everything seems to work perfectly although I do live in a soft water area.

We get a lot of seagulls and whatever they eat is not only bad for the paint, there is also a lot of it


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## hansen123 (Aug 11, 2013)

lowejackson said:


> I guess I have become lazy when it comes to thinking about dilution ratios. I keep a 500ml bottle in the car for quick cleaning duties eg bird droppings or even just a quick wipe of the interior trim. I probably should work out the correct dilution but so far my one cap per 500ml seems to clean everything with the minimum of fuss. Cannot remember what I use for pre-spraying but it is far less than the clay lubricant (64:1) ratio and everything seems to work perfectly although I do live in a soft water area.
> 
> We get a lot of seagulls and whatever they eat is not only bad for the paint, there is also a lot of it


Presoak i think they just recommend the normal wash ratio (something like 250:1)
Pretty hard water area here, but i use Deionised water with most of my sprayers :thumb: so maybe i should just step it down and save some ONR to cut costs.


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## lowejackson (Feb 23, 2006)

hansen123 said:


> Presoak i think they just recommend the normal wash ratio (something like 250:1)
> Pretty hard water area here, but i use Deionised water with most of my sprayers :thumb: so maybe i should just step it down and save some ONR to cut costs.


Must be worth a try.

So far I have experimented with Opticlean & ONR and Power Clean & ONR. The Opticlean works really well but is not a cheap option whereas the Power Clean is fantastic but does require two buckets to stop the ONR from streaking. Having said that 99% I find ONR does a great job on its own


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## Carshine (Nov 11, 2009)

What does he mean by saying he uses rainwater?? Hope it is not what I think it is..


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## Zeddd (Mar 2, 2014)

Carshine said:


> What does he mean by saying he uses rainwater?? Hope it is not what I think it is..


Now I am confused. Does using rainwater pose any problem with ONR?


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## Zeddd (Mar 2, 2014)

@lowiepete

I don't enjoy spending 2 hours on the car which is I'm trying to see where I can save time. Hence the 'over thinking'.
You suggest no pre-rinsing but in my experience that results in my sponge being very quickly loaded with dirt after not even half a pass (especially on the lower panels) which I then have to rinse out before proceeding. This takes time (more than the few minutes invested in pre-rinsing. 
Not pre-rinsing also results in having to make more passes to get the surface clean and we both seem to agree that touching the paint as little as is necessary is the key to minimizing the risk of marring, so why not get as much of if off the car before starting?
Furthermore the pressure washer is already being used to rinse the wheel arches (felt - no ONR possible) so it doesn't take much more time to give the car a quick rinse. I submit that a slight alteration in the strength of the pre-soak ONR is a small price to pay for the benefits I mention above. 

Finally, the salt thing doesn't apply. You must be mistaken on my location. It is currently 10pm, the outside temperature is 28 degrees C and I am wearing shorts. I live in Mauritius. 

Thanks for your input.


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## Lowiepete (Mar 29, 2009)

2 things...

Firstly, how is anyone meant to divine where in the World you are? Why not
you add this info to your profile, so it's much easier for people to help you?

Secondly, I've already described what's happening with your current routine.
You simply aren't giving the ONR a chance to "do its thing". The remedy is 
really quite simple, spray it on to your paint _before_ you aim anything else
at the surface. The ONR on its own won't necessarily displace any _existing_
surface wetness and you shouldn't be expecting it to.

Regards,
Steve


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## SonOfOC (Jan 29, 2013)

Zeddd,

I'm in the states (California). We have been in a drought for years. In many of our cities, it is against the law to use a hose to wash your car. Thus, many Californians have become quite proficient with ONR and rinseless type washes. My method is as follows and takes 20-25 minutes.

1) Using a garden sprayer, I spray about 1 gallon of ONR mix to presoak.
2) Option A: Use 10-12 microfiber towels that have been presoaked in ONR mix to clean vehicle. Option B: Using a wash mitt and 2 buckets (both buckets with ONR mix).
3) Finish of wheels with remaining ONR solution with clean towels.
4) Dry vehicle


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## Zeddd (Mar 2, 2014)

SonofOC my process is similar to yours but I use a grout sponge instead. 
When using option B, do you rinse out your mitt while doing a panel or do you clean the whole panel in one go before rinsing out?


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## Zeddd (Mar 2, 2014)

Lowiepete said:


> 2 things...
> 
> Firstly, how is anyone meant to divine where in the World you are? Why not
> 
> ...


No one is supposed to divine where I am and I don't expect anyone to. If I thought my location was relevant to the question I was asking I would have pointed it out. However your (somewhat shortsighted) assumption that I'm in the UK is quite understandable considering this is a U.K. Forum. I invite you to read my initial post again and you will find all my questions pertain to dirt encapsulation (as is suggested by the thread title) and the requirement to rinse the sponge frequently rather than the merits of rinsing the underbody and the health risks of spending so much time outdoors. You were answering a question I didn't ask but I thank you for your concern 

I also thank you for your suggestions. They are much appreciated. Cheers.


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## SonOfOC (Jan 29, 2013)

Zeddd said:


> SonofOC my process is similar to yours but I use a grout sponge instead.
> When using option B, do you rinse out your mitt while doing a panel or do you clean the whole panel in one go before rinsing out?


Yes, after each panel, the wash mitt would get dunked in one bucket and shaken to remove any dirt. Then dunked into a second bucket for good measure. (Both buckets with grit guards) Of course you can use the 10-12 microfiber towel method, which only requires 1 bucket.

I find a chenille type mitt to be faster than using 10-12 towels. 1 face of the mitt could do half the hood (bonnet), flip the mitt to do the remaining half.


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