# Leather Cleaner? Conditioner ? Protector?



## bmkk

Are the three in one any good like meguairs? or do they damage leather? Zaino two step any good ? has anybody used the product are they any good ? Which one is a good protector?:wall:

I have cream leathers and they just seem to get marked so  easy


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## ahaydock

TBH IMO your best bet is to just regulary use a cleaner - I use the AG Leather Cleaner :thumb:


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## Detail My Ride

LTT is the system I currently use, and won't use anything else.

Ideally, properly clean your leather 1-3 times a year, using a Water Based Cleaner, rather than Silicone/Solvent based products which can damage leather. LTT Foaming Leather Cleaner is perfect for this, massage into the leather using your fingertips, or use a small, soft brush, then wipe clean with a Microfibre.

After this deep clean, ensure that you apply a Leather Protectant to protect the leather, use LTT Leather Protectant, just spray directly onto the leather, spread the product using a Microfibre Applicator Pad, then buff with a Microfibre.

Once a month, give the leather a lighter clean, using LTT Lazy Leather, just spray directly onto the surface of the leather,and wipe with a Microfibre, be sure too top up the protectant.

Once a week or so, hoover to remove dust/dirt, and wipe with a warm, damp microfibre.

http://www.lttsolutions.net/

HTH,

Gaz


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## supercharged

Zaino leather in a bottle rocks! Paul Dalton himself uses it and loves it!


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## bmkk

who is paul dalton? anybody else recommend zaino


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## ryanuk

bmkk said:


> who is paul dalton? anybody else recommend zaino


dont ask,you dont need to know lol.


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## bmkk

why? ? ? ? ? ?


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## Avanti

bmkk said:


> who is paul dalton? anybody else recommend zaino


He is rumoured to be the UK's top detailer, whether he is or he isn't could be argued but he does get and complete top jobs on top cars at premiums that could easily buy a decent used car :thumb:


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## Avanti

bmkk said:


> Are the three in one any good like meguairs? or do they damage leather? Zaino two step any good ? has anybody used the product are they any good ? Which one is a good protector?:wall:
> 
> I have cream leathers and they just seem to get marked so  easy


Well some OTC products have been going for years without causing damage to leather and pleased the owners/users for long enough, oday I have a daily driven merc c220 do clean up with leather , the product I am going to use I would n't expect you to, however, going with AG Megs, LTT or almost any other is better thn not using anything at all .
If I get chance I will take some pics of the Astonish ! in use or Wizz leather treatment ! In the meantime those users of the other leathr cleaning products get your cameras out and reviews posted , the visitors to DW need them :thumb:


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## bmkk

It gets a bit confusing as the specialist "LTT" saying in other posts like combination products are week yet they produce the same stuff. I was just going to purchase some as what they said made some sense until i went onto the website and read some info on products. Mad . I agree these products been out for years so going to buy some Zaino hope it does the job. Thanks for the advice

Products talking about Z-10 vs lazy leather do same thing ?


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## judyb

Lazy Leather (Ultra Maintian - the auto version) is a maintenance product and in no way replaces the two step professional deep clean. However, if the leather is protected from new and then Ultra Maintain used as a regular cleaner you will only need to use a deep cleaner (or a professional clean) about once a year. If leather is older and needs cleaning then you would use the foam to deep clean, then protect and then carry on the process with the maintenance cleaner, deep cleaning once or twice a year (depending on use and coloour etc.)
'Conditioners' will offer very little (if any) protection, and any product that says it is absorbed into the leather or contains oils or waxes should be avoided as these are produced by people who do not understand leather or its care.
Combination products on the market at the moment are cleaners/conditioners which will be fairly ineffective at either process. The LTT product is a cleaner/protector/conditioner in one which is a unique combination. The 'conditioning' is done by the water element in the products as oils and waxes cannot penetrate the finish and are not necessary for the overall care of the leather.
The problem with products that have 'been out for years' is that they have not moved on as leather finishes have changed and whilst they were possibly effective on older leathers they are ineffective on modern finishes.

Detailing in cars requires in depth knowledge of a variety of disciplines including these days up to date processes for leather care which is why we are training so many detailers at present. Auto Express Weekly are attending our next course so that they too can understand interiors and processes that should be used.

For protecting leather (particularly on cream leathers) you need to be sure that the protector actually works (no good relying on the label). These are easy to test and if a good protector is used will help with cleaning and dye transfer.

The whole thing is more to do with the process of cleaning modern leathers not simply comparing products. The more you understand the process the better you wil lbe able to select correct products from the hundreds available.

For cleaning instructions of auto upholstery 
For details of why/how Leather Protectors work


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## bmkk

Makes sense what you saying but

1>*****, AG, Meguairs, Zaino, Race glaze spend thousands on research and development later two dont no but get good reviews are you saying they dont no  when it comes to leather ? The above stated i would say are leaders in the products they have developed and sell around the world. So can you tell me what makes yours the superior product Please elaborate?

2>These claims all the rest are saying with oils and conditioning are they all marketing hype ?

3>I am undertsanding more about your product but what exactly does your product condition the leather with and protect as it states on your website its a two in one product and it does condition. In another thread you saying products that do two actions rather than one are weak so i am  :newbie::newbie


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## Avanti

Please be aware that whilst BMKK is from the same city as I, we do not know each other personally and I too have similar thoughts about mfrs claims over any product :thumb:


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## judyb

The only conditioner that leather requires is water (moisture) thats how our products condition. Other products add oils and waxes under the pretence that these elements 'condition' leather - they don't - that 's the difference. If they are trying to 'condition' modern chrome tanned, pigment coated leathers with these elements (wax and oil) then they do not know what they are talking about. 

If it says this sort of thing on the label then it is simply marketing hype relying on the consumers ignorance of correct leather care.

These suppliers obviously find it easier (more profitable) to sell the consumer what they think they need not actually what does the job best - which is what we try to do.

In our opinion if they are still selling waxes and oils to 'condition' such leathers then they obviously haven't spent money on research and development but probably an awful lot on marketing and advertising. 

Products on the market that are cleaners/conditioners will do no protecting and if they contain oils and waxes any added protection will be very much weakened and have little effect. 

Water based fluorochemical protectors are the strongest ones on the market (tested) and this is how they are so much more effective. As I said our product is a cleaner/protector and is not a substitute for the 2 stage indepth cleaning and protecting - but is a very effective maintenance product which tops up the protection value as it is used. It has no added 'conditioners' because they are not required - the water does that so the strength of the protector is not compromised by unnecessary products.


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## bmkk

but water evaporates? how can it condition then chemical left on leather which is bad is it not ? I no water and leather not a good combo because my leather jacket goes funny when it gets wet

"*Cleans, Protects, Conditions *in one simple process - supplied with FREE cloth and Care Guide
Clean your furniture in just a few minutes

Use on Leather Furniture, Car Interiors, Leather Handbags, Leather Luggage and Leather Clothing" from your website

then quote your post in this post. So you selling what exactly ? marketing hype ? i think so ? Should you not recommend this product for car interior as you fooling your customers as it is no good you said your self read you post weak product. I know it been recommended to other people on other posts by your company. So please explain

p.s im not having a dig i still might buy just not sure about your marketing as you are the minority and the majority use oil that does not evaporate


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## judyb

Avanti
Manufacturers/suppliers claims if they cannot be substanciated become simply marketing tools.
When suppliers can prove their theories and are backed by tanners, leather technologists, chemists and the research and development department of the factory that produces them who have been supplying top of the range products to the leather industry thoroughout the world for more than 30 years this is what makes them different. 

Once you understand the nature of leather then you can begin to understand how it can be successfully cleaned and 'conditioned'.


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## Avanti

judyb said:


> Avanti
> Manufacturers/suppliers claims if they cannot be substanciated become simply marketing tools.
> When suppliers can prove their theories and are backed by tanners, leather technologists, chemists and the research and development department of the factory that produces them who have been supplying top of the range products to the leather industry thoroughout the world for more than 30 years this is what makes them different.
> 
> Once you understand the nature of leather then you can begin to understand how it can be successfully cleaned and 'conditioned'.


As said in another thread, I have no doubt over your products,I am sure it will do the job admirably, but then so will other competitor product lines, I don't think companies like AG would gain their Royal Warrant without good contribution from their product lines, they indeed, just as TW, AG, Megs have been going over 30yrs, I have been to the AG HQ and have no doubt the staff their are passionate about the products they produce and the development that goes into each release, and I could not see why they or any other mfr would knowingly employ chemists that simply do not know what they are on about or simply produce products that are 'rubbish' or substandard.
I have spoken to people at VW and Merc UK and asked about leather upholstery care, The response was that anything from the motor factors built for the job is adequate and will not invalidate the warranty if used correctly, yes one of them did suggest ASTONISH as tha is what he used on his own vehicle .
I am only interested in valeting/detail techniques and often post suggesting people put up reviews on products used whether good or bad, personally I will thank every one I look at for taking their time to do so, I have nothing to sell , lose or gain by whichever product a person chooses.
However if as a rep for LTT you are saying that AG , Megs, Zaino Astonish or the like are causing proven damage to leather upholsery within the automotive enviroment, let them know as I'm sure their H&S ,lawyers etc would be very interested in proof of the deformation of their product lines


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## bmkk

This is not answering the question i posted to your reply you made a claim and then contradicted your self info from your website and posts that you are posting ? So please answer the question


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## judyb

Water is crucial to leather - it is excessive oils that are bad. True if a leather gets very wet it will distort the fibres but leather (which is breathable ) needs moistur to stay supple and flexible. Water being bad for leather is another huge misconception mainly perpetuated by the people selling waxes and oils. 

When leather is dried out it is the moisture in the fats and oils (within the leather) that has dried and this needs replacing to return the fibres to their flexible state.

The protection which is left on the leather is a carefully maufactured product that will not damage the finish but protect it. The water element either is absorbed into the leather (through the finish - water can do this - oils can't) or it evaporates to leave the protector behind. 
Our product does clean/protect/condition and it does all three of these steps in one as explained - but it is sold as a maintenance product which should not replace the 2 step process as previously explained. 

The product is highly sophisticated and based on the latest cleaning technologies available. Normally fluorocarbon protectors cannot be mixed with detergent cleaners so the latest nano-technology processes have been used to combine a very effective cleaner with a very good quality protector - this is in no way the same as cleaner/conditioners that are on the market. We have done the research and the tests and are in no way 'fooling' any of our customers - there are plenty of people doing that already. 
We have oftten been commended for the honesty of our website and our huge list of returning customers are testament to the quality of the products we supply.

The very fact that oils do not evaporate (and cannot be absorbed through the finish into the leather itself) is why they should not be used. As they do not evaporate they stay on the surface of the leather leaving a sticky layer which will then attract more dirt. Dirt, together with abrasion is what will over time damage the finish on the leather.

You asked originally about protection for your cream leather and this is the technology that you need to understand - not simply a product that says it protects when the whole make up of the product indicates that it really will be of no benefit and may be detrimental to your leather over time.

Protect
Clean
Maintain

are the 3 crucial steps you need to follow and these will keep your leather looking and feeling .

Car manufacturers and retailers are very much the same as furniture manufacturers and retailers who know very little about correct care processes and are very willing to sugest all sorts of things ie. baby wipes, woolite etc. when these are proven to be bad for leather cleaning - we have seen the damage caused.

I do not understand where the contradiction comes from - please explain.


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## bmkk

Avanti said:


> As said in another thread, I have no doubt over your products,I am sure it will do the job admirably, but then so will other competitor product lines, I don't think companies like AG would gain their Royal Warrant without good contribution from their product lines, they indeed, just as TW, AG, Megs have been going over 30yrs, I have been to the AG HQ and have no doubt the staff their are passionate about the products they produce and the development that goes into each release, and I could not see why they or any other mfr would knowingly employ chemists that simply do not know what they are on about or simply produce products that are 'rubbish' or substandard.
> I have spoken to people at VW and Merc UK and asked about leather upholstery care, The response was that anything from the motor factors built for the job is adequate and will not invalidate the warranty if used correctly, yes one of them did suggest ASTONISH as tha is what he used on his own vehicle .
> I am only interested in valeting/detail techniques and often post suggesting people put up reviews on products used whether good or bad, personally I will thank every one I look at for taking their time to do so, I have nothing to sell , lose or gain by whichever product a person chooses.
> However if as a rep for LTT you are saying that AG , Megs, Zaino Astonish or the like are causing proven damage to leather upholsery within the automotive enviroment, let them know as I'm sure their H&S ,lawyers etc would be very interested in proof of the deformation of their product lines


I agree:thumb:


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## bidderman1969

why not try a sample?


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## bmkk

good point:thumb: any samples available of the products you talking about:lol:


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## Avanti

bidderman1969 said:


> why not try a sample?


I was not aware free sample's were available, I know every now and then, wax or shampoo samples are available.


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## MaDMaXX

OK, i'm reading this with quite some interest.

There are a couple of things i know to be true about leather;

1) Leather is breathable

2) When leather gets wet through, and then dries, naturally or otherwise, it goes very hard and dry - so the water portion of what LTT say's confuses me.

3) Leather cleaners need to stay on the surface in order to clean the dirt off the surface, if they soak in, they're not cleaning.

4) Leather conditioners need to soak in because if they sit on the surface, they're not conditioning the leather.

5) Therefore, combo cleaners and conditioners will do neither particularly well.

6) Gliptone leather conditioner is and has always been "the dogs dangelies" for a long time, so what's the deal with LTT saying that kind of product is crap?


Thanks.


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## judyb

1) True
2) If leather gets soaked the fibres become swollen and distorted and if then dried will remain hard and unsupple. However, leather needs moisture in small amounts to remain in good condition. Cleaning with water based cleaners will rehydrate the leather on this gradual basis. 
3) Cleaners do need to stay on the surface you are right. If cleaners soak in then you have either a different type of leather (aniline style) or a damaged finish on your coated leather.
4) To condition leather the product needs to be able to get to the leather through the top finish. Water (moisture) can do this (because the leather is breathable) but oils and waxes cannot so therfore remain on the surface. Water has a smaller molecular size than oils so is able to get through. Water is still all that is needed to 'condition' leather. (when LTT speak of 'conditioning' we are speaking of rehydrating the leather not of adding oils and waxes becasue leather only loses moisture it does not lose its oil/fat liquor content.) 
5) True - but here we are again at 'conditioning' products that may contain oils and waxes. 
6) We have never said this - we are trying to give you the informatin in order for you to make your own assessment about which products work and which don't. Products (and what they contain) can create situations that will over time damage the leather finish and are best avoided, and are also generally wasted if they are actually of no benefit.
Why are you putting products on a finished leather that contain oils and waxes that cannot penetrate through to the leather you are trying to 'condition'? Please answer this question in detail.
Check these details with tanners, leather technologists etc. as we do. Remember when you do this that specific leathers are made for specific purposes and if you talk to a tanner of equestrian leather you will get an answer that contradicts the answer from a tanner of auto leather but both answers will be right. Equestrain leather is tanned, finished and treated in a very differnt way to auto/furniture leather


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## Avanti

judyb said:


> 1) True
> 2) If leather gets soaked the fibres become swollen and distorted and if then dried will remain hard and unsupple. However, leather needs moisture in small amounts to remain in good condition. Cleaning with water based cleaners will rehydrate the leather on this gradual basis.
> 3) Cleaners do need to stay on the surface you are right. If cleaners soak in then you have either a different type of leather (aniline style) or a damaged finish on your coated leather.
> 4) To condition leather the product needs to be able to get to the leather through the top finish. Water (moisture) can do this (because the leather is breathable) but oils and waxes cannot so therfore remain on the surface. Water has a smaller molecular size than oils so is able to get through. Water is still all that is needed to 'condition' leather. (when LTT speak of 'conditioning' we are speaking of rehydrating the leather not of adding oils and waxes becasue leather only loses moisture it does not lose its oil/fat liquor content.)
> 5) True - but here we are again at 'conditioning' products that may contain oils and waxes.
> 6) We have never said this - we are trying to give you the informatin in order for you to make your own assessment about which products work and which don't. Products (and what they contain) can create situations that will over time damage the leather finish and are best avoided, and are also generally wasted if they are actually of no benefit.
> Why are you putting products on a finished leather that contain oils and waxes that cannot penetrate through to the leather you are trying to 'condition'? Please amswer this question in detail.


I can see Madmaxx's point as some of the reply is confusing, I have never seen a shiny grey cow or any other colour cow that leather upholstery comes in, so I assume leather is dyed and coated to the finish we are familiar with in the home car, on our feet or to keep us warm.
Therefore in the case of light soiling, this soiling is on the surface and does not need to penetrate to become clean once again, as mentioned before my brother has a 14yr old Merc with cream leather upholstery (in fact it's his 2nd one) the upholstery is in fine condition, I know he uses AG products on his own car, as they are tried and trusted, surely after 14yrs of none use of LTT product line , the damage you refer to would now be evident?
As said though I don't have an issue with any product line for any reason, although, I do have concerns over the 'scare' tactics you are pushing as to why to dismiss other product lines with regards to leather care/cleaning.
Compared to the OTC competition, for 2.5-3 times the price one gets 1/3 of the quantity.
That said it is not just about price or quantity but overall value for money which I am sure every product on the market has some element of VFM.










and after










I can only post upon products I have tried.


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## judyb

We are simply answering questions that are asked. We express our opinion from 20 years of practical experience in cleaning and restoring leather - which other suppliers try to be so helpful?
The 'scare tactics' you blame us of using are simply situations that we have seen created and had to fix. Each cleaning/restoration job is different and needs approaching ina slightly different way ie: someone could use a cleaner/conditioner on a Merc for 10 years and the seats could be perfect, someone else could use a cleaner/conditioner on a similar Merc for 2 years and create a problem simply because the car has been used bu a different person in a different way - there is no difinitive answer to the type of questions you ask we merely give the benfit of our long association with leather and its care.


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## MaDMaXX

So, which leather conditioners use oil? I've just checked the bottle of Gliptone leather conditioner and it mentions none of that.


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## Avanti

judyb said:


> We are simply answering questions that are asked. We express our opinion from 20 years of practical experience in cleaning and restoring leather - which other suppliers try to be so helpful?
> The 'scare tactics' you blame us of using are simply situations that we have seen created and had to fix. Each cleaning/restoration job is different and needs approaching ina slightly different way ie: someone could use a cleaner/conditioner on a Merc for 10 years and the seats could be perfect, someone else could use a cleaner/conditioner on a similar Merc for 2 years and create a problem simply because the car has been used bu a different person in a different way - there is no difinitive answer to the type of questions you ask we merely give the benfit of our long association with leather and its care.


Indeed, and we thank you for taking time to visit and answer people's enquires.
The 20yrs experince was 30 earlier on, however by the by, many other mfrs are helpful and are just a phone call away in many instances.
The scare tactics are when you post reasons of why 'a poster' should not use any other product line than LTT for leather because the other brands 'don't have a clue' .
I agree careless misuse of a product can attract problems for your technicians to resolve, for me I can only go on what I see over the years and if product X caused problems as you often describe, then Im sure this would be published/reported more widely around the available media sources :thumb:


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## bidderman1969

or maybe a few product do the job, some others may do it better?


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## Detail My Ride

I at first actually heavily criticized LTT, I then used their products and was blown away with the results. The products are well priced, well made, simple to use, and give incredibly effective results.

Yes, they may come across, as if they are effectively saying, everything else is rubbish, use our products, they are the best. 

To the comments of, if other manufacturers are selling bad products after market research etc. Its proven, that washing your car at a Car Wash causes damage, although thousands of people still take their car to one each year. Same scenario with these leather products. Same Job, better/worse results.


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## MaDMaXX

Has anyone even used Gliptone?


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## Avanti

Gaz W said:


> I at first actually heavily criticized LTT, I then used their products and was blown away with the results. The products are well priced, well made, simple to use, and give incredibly effective results.
> 
> Yes, they may come across, as if they are effectively saying, everything else is rubbish, use our products, they are the best.
> 
> To the comments of, if other manufacturers are selling bad products after market research etc. Its proven, that washing your car at a Car Wash causes damage, although thousands of people still take their car to one each year. Same scenario with these leather products. Same Job, better/worse results.


Thanks Gaz, it's about time somebody came about and held their hand up to using LTT, I'm sure they are good as you have verified.
And the latter part of your post sums it up really.


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## philworrall

Madmaxx, I have used gliptone and raceglaze products, both very similar to me.

I find both conditioners just sit on the surface. On one particular dry piece of leather neither made any improvement to the suppleness after many applications over winter while the car was not used.

I intend to use the LT product this year when I am back on the road again.

HTH


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## MaDMaXX

Hmm, very interesting, as my Dad finds that it soaks into the seats quite nicely and makes a clear difference to the suppleness of the leather.

Interesting, maybe LTT can confirm whether it's oil based or not, as it doesn't mention one way or another on the back and i assume LTT do comparative testing?


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## gt5500

Gaz W said:


> I at first actually heavily criticized LTT, I then used their products and was blown away with the results. *The products are well priced*, well made, simple to use, and give incredibly effective results.


See thats what I have an issue with, I must admit I am not a fan of the way LTT come across in their posts and I do agree that their marketing sounds very much like scaremongering. But I have read a lot of positive reviews and would probably try their products but I am sorry they are not what I would call well priced. They may well be the best available but £15 for a very small bottle is simply too much for me and I am guessing a lot of other people. £15 for the cleaner and protector would be resonable I think but £30 is too steep. I know its not really our place to criticise peoples prices but LTT come on to every single leather care thread and promote their products so its only fair I give my reasons for not trying them out.


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## akimel

The key question, it seems to me, is whether a water-based leather cleaner and conditioner is best for the finished leather found in automobile seats. If yes, then what I want to know is what lines carry water-based cleaners and conditioners. 

I live in the U.S., and I don't believe LTT products are sold here. I believe that Leather Master is also water-based. Are there any other lines?


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## judyb

Leather Master, Fenice and LTT all follow the same principles of cleaning and protecting with water based products which then condition the leather.


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## ryanuk

i use LTT leather products on all my leather jobs.

and find them great! work very well!


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## MaDMaXX

But then, Gliptone also works very well and are used by Jag and Astin Martin etc.....


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## akimel

What precisely does a protectant do? Does it actually protect the leather seats from wear?


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## judyb

If you click on the link below you can read about leather protection and what the products do.

Leather Protection

Hope this helps


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## bmkk

Gaz W said:


> I at first actually heavily criticized LTT, I then used their products and was blown away with the results. The products are well priced, well made, simple to use, and give incredibly effective results.
> 
> Yes, they may come across, as if they are effectively saying, everything else is rubbish, use our products, they are the best.
> 
> To the comments of, if other manufacturers are selling bad products after market research etc. Its proven, that washing your car at a Car Wash causes damage, although thousands of people still take their car to one each year. Same scenario with these leather products. Same Job, better/worse results.


very good point :thumb:


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## bmkk

judy B just answer the questions Glipton ? does it protect against wear ? What other products using water based tech ?

Thanks for the previous answers as they are very informative and now i understand what you talking about but you can see from the feed back and interest this topic is to the people we just want info.:thumb: Do i get a discount :lol: i want to try it ?


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## Detail My Ride

MaDMaXX said:


> But then, Gliptone also works very well and are used by Jag and Astin Martin etc.....


What does that prove?

Supaguard or similar is available in most dealerships cross the UK, from Ford to BMW etc, although I know that it is a really poor sealant, yet people still pay hundreds of pounds everyday to have it put onto their new car.


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## MaDMaXX

I think the website is as clear as mud, some products seem to overlap something rotten 

What exactly would a normal leather treatment consist of?


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## MaDMaXX

Gaz W said:


> What does that prove?
> 
> Supaguard or similar is available in most dealerships cross the UK, from Ford to BMW etc, although I know that it is a really poor sealant, yet people still pay hundreds of pounds everyday to have it put onto their new car.


Good point :/


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## bmkk

They dont provide the leather protection sealent is for the paint work. You have to buy the leather cleaner protector thing from the website it is like LLT stuff not sure about the protector cleaner is the same principal. it's £28 pounds i think i paid, cleaner came with it applicator bottle, application sponge, microfibre cloth and protector and ink removing stick. I think they are using the same tech as LLT i have used it on two car merc and bmw merc it came out shiney a bit but bm its not bad. The cleaner is really good not to sure about the protector.

Im assuming its like LLT have not bought any yet but what LLT have explained so far it sounds the same as what it says on the packaging on the bottles recieved.

You can pay hundreds of pounds for the Supagard but they usally throw it in for free to close the deal. But you do get the odd **** that pays the full price making the salesman very happy. I have seen it on ebay for about £30 and i thought i was getting a deal thrown in for free saving my self a few hundred but those salesman to crafty.


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## MaDMaXX

Yeah, there are a lot of people that think supaguard actually lasts and performs like the advert says 


Sorry, which leather thing are you talking about now?


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## bmkk

supagard leather protection system


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## MaDMaXX

Um, ok.


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## bmkk

akimel said:


> The key question, it seems to me, is whether a water-based leather cleaner and conditioner is best for the finished leather found in automobile seats. If yes, then what I want to know is what lines carry water-based cleaners and conditioners.
> 
> I live in the U.S., and I don't believe LTT products are sold here. I believe that Leather Master is also water-based. Are there any other lines?


very good question? What other products are available that use this system ? America massive and somebody else has to be using this system if it is any good


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## Detail My Ride

I wasn't referring to Supaguard's Leather Protection products, I was referring to Supaguard, as in, Supaguard, the paintwork sealant.


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## bmkk

Ultra Pro Leather Care kit not the previous post


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## bmkk

Gaz W said:


> I wasn't referring to Supaguard's Leather Protection products, I was referring to Supaguard, as in, Supaguard, the paintwork sealant.


Oh :wall:


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## -ROM-

I use Autoglym's offerings, they do a cracking job IMO.


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## bmkk

gaz do you get any comission from LTT for having that discount thing on every one of your posts?:doublesho


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## bmkk

is it water based ? if its not its S ** t according to the leather experts as it *could* be causing your leather damage so do you want to risk it ???


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## MaDMaXX

So, if Gliptone gives really good results, and LTT hasn't come back on stating what type of conditioner it is, nor any information on comparative testing, why don't we just use that?


In fact, why don't we just check with all the classic car clubs for what they use, a lot of very delicate leather in the old classics, perhaps we should ask them?


----------



## bmkk

MaDMaXX said:


> So, if Gliptone gives really good results, and LTT hasn't come back on stating what type of conditioner it is, nor any information on comparative testing, why don't we just use that?


Because we want to here the experts say it as they are currently saying everything else is 

This is my point quick to reply but not on topic we want answers on? perhaps they are not experts on the other companies products? and the other companies not experts on the water based products so they dont use them but i got about 8 oil using companies and about three with the H2O and the oils are big companies that cover america aswell. as this a secret that only Irleand got I think so not covering world perhaps uk world to them


----------



## bmkk

they use gliptone man its only the modern stuff to delicate it needs water that evaporates to hold the moisture in you have not been paying attention. oil cant penetrate the leather but it can stain the leather so i suppose that it penetrates then. She commented in one of the post s that a tire grease has pentrated top finish so it needs som deep cleaning or some sort of restoration but it thought grease is made up of oil basically tyre shine stuff that went through so if that getting through to top coat of leather im sure oils that are found in Z Y M O L products , gliptone zaino race glace ag poorboys chemical what ever the rest is, something going to get through but that dont help the expert says still waiting for reply if we dont get one i think we should revoult have a revolution :car::doublesho:devil::lol::lol::lol::lol:


----------



## MaDMaXX

Yeah, well i think i got the gist of your posts 

Other than LTT, does/can anyone else confirm that water is the only product that can penetrate leather?

I'm still not happy with the explanation of why when leather is soaked, that it dries hard and dry, it contradicts using water as a treatment.


----------



## bmkk

MaDMaXX said:


> Yeah, well i think i got the gist of your posts
> 
> Other than LTT, does/can anyone else confirm that water is the only product that can penetrate leather?
> 
> I'm still not happy with the explanation of why when leather is soaked, that it dries hard and dry, it contradicts using water as a treatment.


its only because she dont give an answer to the questions you want answers to and they are meant to be leather consultants that what drives me mad and others. hopefully from this post we will get the answers we have been looking for as nobody before has got the answer to this question otherwise you would not be asking about gliptone quality as the expert has put doubt into people brains. A product which is safe easly attainable and the dogs well you no


----------



## bidderman1969

bmkk said:


> its only because she dont give an answer to the questions you want answers to and they are meant to be leather consultants that what drives me mad and others. hopefully from this post we will get the answers we have been looking for as nobody before has got the answer to this question otherwise you would not be asking about gliptone quality as the expert has put doubt into people brains. A product which is safe easly attainable and the dogs well you no


personally, i think judy has been extremely helpful, and i for one have got some of the LTT stuff, having seen it in action in a very good demo.

i found everything on the website easy to read and its something i choose to use. i doubt every manufacturer will know everything about every other manufacturers products, so if you would rather buy something you feel is value for money, then choose that route, alot of products are sold through word of mouth/recommendations which is what a few people are trying to help you out with 

this is why theres a lot of products to choose from in every thing thats for sale in general, from cars to food etc, down to choice, its like saying "whats the best car?" you'll never have the one answer.

also, she doesnt have to come on here to answer questions, i think she chooses to, she could just let the products sell themselves, as they are getting a good reputation. it seems to me that the posts are getting a little brash, which I hope im wrong on, so could we try to be a little more relaxed?


----------



## MaDMaXX

Actually, right now, there isn't anything to say why or how this is better, other than LTT's word. No testing to back it up, a few people saying it's good, against a lot of people saying, Gliptone is very good. I keep using that brand, but it's just an example.

I appreciate companies coming on and "selling" the virtues of their products, and when they can argue with me, they'll get my business.


----------



## bidderman1969

MaDMaXX said:


> Actually, right now, there isn't anything to say why or how this is better, other than LTT's word. No testing to back it up, a few people saying it's good, against a lot of people saying, Gliptone is very good. I keep using that brand, but it's just an example.
> 
> I appreciate companies coming on and "selling" the virtues of their products, and when they can argue with me, they'll get my business.


with all due respect, why should they "argue"? its down to choice, which is why you'll be sticking to Gliptone. just out of intrest, did Gliptone "argue" with you? or sell it to you in any way?

:thumb:


----------



## Ben Staerck

*HERE ARE SOME FACTS ABOUT LEATHER AND ITS CARE*

The first thing to do is remember that modern leather in the car is sealed by paint and then by a lacquer. Generally if the leather goes hard, more often than not, it is the paint/lacquer that has hardened or cracked and not the leather.

LEATHER KEEPS ITSELF MOISTURISED BY ABSORBING WATER VAPOUR THROUGH ITS FLESH/SUEDE SIDE.

Water will not permeate the finish on modern leather, nor will an oil or a wax.

Now when leather is tanned, animal oil, fish oil, vegtable oil, faltliquors or waxes are introduced into the leather to grant the leather softness. However, sometimes these oils can dry/harden or are removed with incorrect cleaning and cause the leather to go hard.

Re-introducing these oils will fedinately soften the leather, but if the finish is still intact on the leather, then you cannot actually get the oil into the leather and so it is a waste of time.

WAXES/OILS VS PROTECTOR

Waxes do not damage leathers surface, its a needless point to say they do, especiall when this cannot be backed up with proof or any evidence.

Think about this. *DOES THE WAX YOU APPLY TO YOUR CARS PAINTWORK ATTRACT DIRT?*

No, and its the same with leather. You can get soft waxes like beeswax, which may remain tacky when applied, and harder waxes like carnuba wax, which will not.

When companies make products to 'condition' leather they have this necessary knowlege and test facilities to use the correct products for the job. They will not use products that will cause damage.

You wipe them on, then buff them up. Most waxes should offer some form of protection agasint staining and especially wear/tear as they offer that slip factor. This is more important for car interior leather than applying a protector, as the leather won't stain anyway. A wax/silicone type emulsion will offer;

1. Stain repellancy. (anti-soiling)
2. Reduce friction (so reduce wear/tear)
3. Offer a nicer touch to the leather.

Often waxes are mixed into the leathers lacquer to make it softer or harder, depending upon the use or characteristics of the lacquer.

Leather protectors (ones to give the leather oil and water repellancy) are only really needed for absorbant types of leather. Not found in car interiors.

hope this helps claer things up a little


----------



## judyb

Is a fact truly a fact if it can be disputed?

We would dispute virtually every part of the 'facts' as presented by Ben but this will take some time to do as we need to clarify each point made. 
We are busy teaching at the moment so do not have time to respond in full but this will follow.


----------



## Avanti

bidderman1969 said:


> with all due respect, why should they "argue"? its down to choice, which is why you'll be sticking to Gliptone. just out of intrest, did Gliptone "argue" with you? or sell it to you in any way?
> 
> :thumb:


It's not really a point of arguing, I personally have noticed in the past, when a post has gone up about leather care and a none LTT product is used, then comes the talk of 'the product is more than likely causing damage to the surface or thre mfr of the competing brand is selling market hype' .
Yes people have a choice but it seems that choice is being denied when it comes to leather care .


----------



## bmkk

bidderman1969 said:


> personally, i think judy has been extremely helpful, and i for one have got some of the LTT stuff, having seen it in action in a very good demo.
> 
> i found everything on the website easy to read and its something i choose to use. i doubt every manufacturer will know everything about every other manufacturers products, so if you would rather buy something you feel is value for money, then choose that route, alot of products are sold through word of mouth/recommendations which is what a few people are trying to help you out with
> 
> this is why theres a lot of products to choose from in every thing thats for sale in general, from cars to food etc, down to choice, its like saying "whats the best car?" you'll never have the one answer.
> 
> also, she doesnt have to come on here to answer questions, i think she chooses to, she could just let the products sell themselves, as they are getting a good reputation. it seems to me that the posts are getting a little brash, which I hope im wrong on, so could we try to be a little more relaxed?


I agree on some of the points you are saying but she is coming on the forums and giving her opinions that why we are challenging her opinions or should i say questioning her as she is meant to be the expert thats why we would like answers:thumb:


----------



## bmkk

Avanti said:


> It's not really a point of arguing, I personally have noticed in the past, when a post has gone up about leather care and a none LTT product is used, then comes the talk of 'the product is more than likely causing damage to the surface or thre mfr of the competing brand is selling market hype' .
> Yes people have a choice but it seems that choice is being denied when it comes to leather care .


I agree that is why we this post is being read by a good few people because we want *answers *:spam:


----------



## bidderman1969

bmkk said:


> I agree on some of the points you are saying but she is coming on the forums and giving her opinions that why we are challenging her opinions or should i say questioning her as she is meant to be the expert thats why we would like answers:thumb:


cool, :thumb: but some posts did seem to be getting a bit aggro, so it would be nice to keep the atmosphere sligtly more relaxed.

could you ask for a sample?


----------



## bidderman1969

bmkk said:


> I agree that is why we this post is being read by a good few people because we want *answers *:spam:


should that read "we would love/like" some answers? :thumb:


----------



## Avanti

bidderman1969 said:


> should that read "we would love/like" some answers? :thumb:


I'm not even so sure about that, as the thread appears as if we (many ) are 'witch hunting' but Im sure that is not the case, for me as said, we have a choice but bad mouthing competitors instead of highlighting a product or brand strength is not encouraging for me to purchase from that group. 
For me this product looks interesting http://www.furnitureclinic.co.uk/Leather_Care_Kit.htm
and there is enough blurb on the site about leather care and techniques.
But saying that, looking back at the pic of the merc seat, there is a shine (slight reflection) on the seat after it has been cleaned with the astonish.


----------



## gt5500

judyb said:


> Is a fact truly a fact if it can be disputed?
> 
> We would dispute virtually every part of the 'facts' as presented by Ben but this will take some time to do as we need to clarify each point made.
> We are busy teaching at the moment so do not have time to respond in full but this will follow.


Oh come on you would dispute anything that made someone elses product seem as good or better then your products. Probably starting off with something like "we have been leather experts for 30 years". I am sorry but as others have said its fine to highlight the virtues of your product over someone elses but this whole "everyone elses products cause damage" agenda just winds people up. As you can see from some of the responses in this thread its actually having a negative effect, and people are clearly having trouble trusting you.


----------



## bmkk

gt5500 said:


> Oh come on you would dispute anything that made someone elses product seem as good or better then your products. Probably starting off with something like "we have been leather experts for 30 years". I am sorry but as others have said its fine to highlight the virtues of your product over someone elses but this whole "everyone elses products cause damage" agenda just winds people up. As you can see from some of the responses in this thread its actually having a negative effect, and people are clearly having trouble trusting you.


yep thats right :thumb:


----------



## bmkk

bidderman1969 said:


> cool, :thumb: but some posts did seem to be getting a bit aggro, so it would be nice to keep the atmosphere sligtly more relaxed.
> 
> could you ask for a sample?


im not a kiss ass it says what it says:devil:

Im not against the product or the person i just want clarification that is not bs and some points sounded like it but she has clarified those points so it is gravy. But some of them she has not ? and i would like to know as i do value her opinion as she has made some sense on some things but branding every other product as  is not good. I have asked about sample no reply


----------



## -ROM-

This thread is awesome, the way i read it and previous posts from judy it seems like they have the only leather care products in the entire world that actually work and don't damage the leather!


----------



## BMW^Z4

ZAino 9 and 10 is the best for me ...


----------



## bmkk

yep we are searching for answers we still have not heard anything from LLT.


----------



## -ROM-

judy was viewing this thread 10 mins ago, thought we were going to have a response!


----------



## bmkk

come on man this is not a wich hunt its just a bit of fun with some important questions getting answered from the professional just giving them a bit of hard time while we asking


----------



## dazzerjp

Ben Staerck said:


> *HERE ARE SOME FACTS ABOUT LEATHER AND ITS CARE*
> 
> The first thing to do is remember that modern leather in the car is sealed by paint and then by a lacquer. Generally if the leather goes hard, more often than not, it is the paint/lacquer that has hardened or cracked and not the leather.
> 
> LEATHER KEEPS ITSELF MOISTURISED BY ABSORBING WATER VAPOUR THROUGH ITS FLESH/SUEDE SIDE.


That is my understanding as well. The leather has a lacquer sealed layer.

Judy has posted similar posts on Autopia, and Im sure her product is as good as she says, but her marketing approach is wrong and its had pretty much the same response on Autopia.

As many posters have said, Judy, just concentrate on the virtues of your own product.


----------



## -ROM-

bmkk said:


> come on man this is not a wich hunt its just a bit of fun with some important questions getting answered from the pro just giving them a bit of hard time while we asking


May be a bit of fun mate, bit to be fair judy basically said that another leather expert was talking out of their @r$e, you can't do that then say you haven't got time to qualify/backup that statement.

It's very unprofessional!


----------



## bmkk

rmorgan84 said:


> May be a bit of fun mate, bit to be fair judy basically said that another leather expert was talking out of their @r, you can't do that then say you haven't got time to qualify/backup that statement.
> 
> It's very unprofessional!


yeah you are right she did say that and shes been getting some **** for it but you cant keep on ****ting on her give her chance to reply and if you think its crap well then you can i suppose continue  to but i think she has had enough and thinking deeply on how to make a come back.


----------



## MaDMaXX

See, here's the thing, arguing isn't always bad, when i say argue, i'm talking about the comments being made, well, claims really, which are completely contradictory to what people have known for over 30 years.

If someone claims something like that, i'll question it, and counter argue from already known information.
For the business to be won and to get me to believe it, things/comments/claims have to make sense.

So far, only a few select parts have been answered, and they're a little politician in style.

That's no good, we need to know and we need to talk to someone who knows instead of reading from a cheat sheet.


----------



## bmkk

MaDMaXX said:


> So far, only a few select parts have been answered, and they're a little politician in style.
> 
> That's no good, we need to know and we need to talk to someone who knows instead of reading from a cheat sheet.


Thats what im talking about . You hit the nail on the head .:wave: not full answer a partial answer from a script. I think we going to get our answers soon


----------



## Avanti

MaDMaXX said:


> See, here's the thing, arguing isn't always bad, when i say argue, i'm talking about the comments being made, well, claims really, which are completely contradictory to what people have known for over 30 years.
> 
> If someone claims something like that, i'll question it, and counter argue from already known information.
> For the business to be won and to get me to believe it, things/comments/claims have to make sense.
> 
> So far, only a few select parts have been answered, and they're a little politician in style.
> 
> That's no good, we need to know and we need to talk to someone who knows instead of reading from a cheat sheet.


I suppose where I am 'reading it from' the points LTT makes are good and valid (as similar advice is given on other sources) , realistically she does not name the products with the wild claims that don't deliver  , so for me there is no need to worry over using a 'rival' brand as they are equally safe to use for the task described.
In fact now after reading what I have just wrote, it is making me like the Astonish leather cleaner even more as on the bottle it promises to clean, shine and protect (a bit like a cleaner wax really) and on that score i delivers as promised , the fact that a bottle can be purchased for under £1 and the datasheet suggests that it will clean a surface without damaging the top coat and leave a temporary coating which as well as visibly pleasing will resist the next addition of soiling :thumb:


----------



## MaDMaXX

I think the main bugbear is that claims of water penetrating, water conditioning, then claims of water or anything else not penetrating and then saying the leather can never get anything into it. It's not clear in the slightest.

Let's say that car seats are hard and rough, never had any care taken over them for a long time.
Then let's say that a leather conditioner is used on them repeatedly and the seats start coming back to being soft and smooth again.

I know i keep harping on about Gliptone, but it's the only one i've had experience with recently and i know it makes a difference.

But technically, according to what's been posted, it can't of made any difference.

Until information starts making sense and complementing each other, i don't believe any of the points made on here.


----------



## ryanuk

i went for Furniture clinique,i do use LTT but had a free sample of the Furniture clinique
cleaner few months back and to be fair it did work better then the LTT i use.


----------



## Avanti

MaDMaXX said:


> I think the main bugbear is that claims of water penetrating, water conditioning, then claims of water or anything else not penetrating and then saying the leather can never get anything into it. It's not clear in the slightest.
> 
> Let's say that car seats are hard and rough, never had any care taken over them for a long time.
> Then let's say that a leather conditioner is used on them repeatedly and the seats start coming back to being soft and smooth again.
> 
> I know i keep harping on about Gliptone, but it's the only one i've had experience with recently and i know it makes a difference.
> 
> But technically, according to what's been posted, it can't of made any difference.
> 
> Until information starts making sense and complementing each other, i don't believe any of the points made on here.


Yes I noticed the contradictions too, realistically the leather is under a covering and hence the water cannot penetrate the covering, so all that is required is to keep it clean and protected (just like the car paintwork), I can see uncovered leather going hard and losing it's moisture , but not so much car or furniture leather as it is covered and the mositure would be beneath the protective covering, so if say the texture recieved a tear (or wore down severly like from on the driver's seat), then that point may start to go hard after a time


----------



## bmkk

MaDMaXX said:


> See, here's the thing, arguing isn't always bad, when i say argue, i'm talking about the comments being made, well, claims really, which are completely contradictory to what people have known for over 30 years.
> 
> If someone claims something like that, i'll question it, and counter argue from already known information.
> For the business to be won and to get me to believe it, things/comments/claims have to make sense.
> 
> So far, only a few select parts have been answered, and they're a little politician in style.
> 
> That's no good, we need to know and we need to talk to someone who knows instead of reading from a cheat sheet.





MaDMaXX said:


> I think the main bugbear is that claims of water penetrating, water conditioning, then claims of water or anything else not penetrating and then saying the leather can never get anything into it. It's not clear in the slightest.
> 
> Let's say that car seats are hard and rough, never had any care taken over them for a long time.
> Then let's say that a leather conditioner is used on them repeatedly and the seats start coming back to being soft and smooth again.
> 
> I know i keep harping on about Gliptone, but it's the only one i've had experience with recently and i know it makes a difference.
> 
> But technically, according to what's been posted, it can't of made any difference.
> 
> Until information starts making sense and complementing each other, i don't believe any of the points made on here.


well spotted i did not pick that one up.:wall: No LTT reply she said she was going to ? I think she may be upset:lol::lol::lol::lol::devil:


----------



## philworrall

The bit I dont understand is:
If car leather has a paint / finish applied to it, then non of the 'protectants' / leather feeds etc. are not going to work so they are all krap as far as I can see or have I missed something??

Actually I think I have just reiterated my earlier post when I stated that I have been feeding my leather all winter with no appreciable change is texture or softness


----------



## bmkk

Anybody like my new addition the poll? I thought it would help this post


----------



## Avanti

philworrall said:


> The bit I dont understand is:
> If car leather has a paint / finish applied to it, then non of the 'protectants' / leather feeds etc. are not going to work so they are all krap as far as I can see or have I missed something??


To me, you are protecting the painted surface the leather is already protected by the covering, if you have a 'wax' coating on top of the seat then the dirt will be on that before it is on the painted surface, then you can remove that and re-apply a new clean wax coating?


----------



## philworrall

Avanti, that is the conclusion I have reached also so far. 

P


----------



## bmkk

philworrall said:


> The bit I dont understand is:
> If car leather has a paint / finish applied to it, then non of the 'protectants' / leather feeds etc. are not going to work so they are all krap as far as I can see or have I missed something??


Yes it is a brain fk but i think they do help as the cleaners do clean tried them and the water based one i have found are real good in shifitng the dirt its the conditioner protector thing that causing this controversy and a few others i want mention getting headache:wall:


----------



## philworrall

BMKK, you should add a line for "just soapy water" or "just water".

P


----------



## philworrall

Yes I am happy with the cleaners I use its just the "protectors / foods" that are baffling me. Mine definitely do NOT get absorbed.


----------



## bmkk

Avanti said:


> To me, you are protecting the painted surface the leather is already protected by the covering, if you have a 'wax' coating on top of the seat then the dirt will be on that before it is on the painted surface, then you can remove that and re-apply a new clean wax coating?


yes but the pressure from bum on seat gets the dirt stripping the wax off i think like sand paper action because it get jamed in wax?

there is a really intresting post im going try to add a link have not done before so not sure if it will work but they are saying similar thing to LLT but nicer


----------



## Avanti

philworrall said:


> Yes I am happy with the cleaners I use its just the "protectors / foods" that are baffling me. Mine definitely do NOT get absorbed.


Yes I *think* the water based products for leather as 'most' of us know are cleaners , then the term foods or rejuvinators are just how one may percieve it and not really marketing tripe, comparing it back to external paintwork, if a surface is heavily oxidised, when polishing, one is removing the oxidisation and 'dead' paint to reveal again the 'original' factory finish. If there is soiling on the seats and that is removed to reveal the 'factory finish' then it could be argued that the seats which are leather have been rejuvinated, I have never come across hardened leathercar seats but then that is not to say they do not exists.


----------



## bmkk

http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=27171


----------



## Ben Staerck

MaDMaXX said:


> I think the main bugbear is that claims of water penetrating, water conditioning, then claims of water or anything else not penetrating and then saying the leather can never get anything into it. It's not clear in the slightest.
> 
> Let's say that car seats are hard and rough, never had any care taken over them for a long time.
> Then let's say that a leather conditioner is used on them repeatedly and the seats start coming back to being soft and smooth again.
> 
> I know i keep harping on about Gliptone, but it's the only one i've had experience with recently and i know it makes a difference.
> 
> But technically, according to what's been posted, it can't of made any difference.
> 
> Until information starts making sense and complementing each other, i don't believe any of the points made on here.


When the leather is old, the surafce weakens and can crack. This opens up the finish allowing products to soak in (so to speak). And you can get really good results using conditioners in these cases as it plumps up the leather making it feel softer, smoother and generally more full.

If it works, and you're happy with it, why stop? Most of the companies in the list have been making conditioners now for years and if the products damaged leather surely it would have come to light by now.


----------



## bmkk

Ben Staerck said:


> When the leather is old, the surafce weakens and can crack. This opens up the finish allowing products to soak in (so to speak). And you can get really good results using conditioners in these cases as it plumps up the leather making it feel softer, smoother and generally more full.
> 
> If it works, and you're happy with it, why stop? Most of the companies in the list have been making conditioners now for years and if the products damaged leather surely it would have come to light by now.


which ones protect on the list ?


----------



## philworrall

Ben, I dont think they are necessarily damaging the leather, just simply a case of they do nothing at all except make the wallet a little lighter


----------



## bmkk

philworrall said:


> BMKK, you should add a line for "just soapy water" or "just water".
> 
> P


it want let me add more than 10 options. See what the results are then in next pole add what you said:thumb:


----------



## philworrall

Ok thanks, I am sure that there are DWers that just use soapy water so worth it to find out.


----------



## Avanti

philworrall said:


> Ok thanks, I am sure that there are DWers that just use soapy water so worth it to find out.


I would imagine a regular wipe down is often all that is necessary to maintain the finish after a vacuum.


----------



## MaDMaXX

Avanti, see, that's the way it would seem to be, based on the info that the coating on modern seats prevents anything getting through.

I think the only explanation as to why the leather conditioner i've been using, works, is Ben's.

Question is, what makes the leather go hard and crack in the first place? Surely putting a leather product on it would stop this, but then, it could only be a product that sat on the surface, like a sealant.

But then that would stop it breathing, which isn't good.

Either way, water wouldn't appear to help if it won't soak through.

More than anything, i'm used to bike leathers, i know that once they finally let water through (it takes a long while and a good soaking) that they go hard and brittle once dried, naturally or speedily. Applying a bees wax product helps them a lot, it makes them softer and has waterproofing properties as well. I don't mean softer to touch, any surface treatment can be formulated to fake that. I mean softer in movement etc, they really do change from it.

On this basis, even if you ignore the whole coating on the surface thing, the water being the only thing to penetrate leather thing stated by LTT would seem to be completely untrue.


Some of you may now understand why i'm questioning what's been said. I don't know the answer one way or another, but too many things do not make sense nor have explanations which backup the claims.


----------



## Gids64

In a former life I used to refurbish leather and suede garments and upholstery. I am of the opinion that none of the products will harm your leather seats and trim and that by paying them any sort of regular attention will only do them good, pretty much with whatever you choose. After all, these products would not be on the shelf if they were detrimental in any way. So long as the surface of your leather is sound, good old light suds and luke warm water is tops in my opinion.

If the surface of your leather has degraged and the colour is broken then you have to re-visit the original tanning process which will involve harsher cleansing, colouring and sealing.


----------



## philworrall

Now here is another one to cloudy the waters.
My sister and nearly every girl friend that I have had has been a horse rider / owner.
They treat their leather saddles with water and saddle soap. When they slap it on they go to town, the leather definitely gets wet but it is some of the softest and flexible leather I have ever touched. The older the leather the softer the leather gets. AND you never see cracks in saddles that have been cleaned this way.

What do the rest of you think?

P


----------



## Avanti

MaDMaXX said:


> Avanti, see, that's the way it would seem to be, based on the info that the coating on modern seats prevents anything getting through.
> 
> I think the only explanation as to why the leather conditioner i've been using, works, is Ben's.
> 
> Question is, what makes the leather go hard and crack in the first place? Surely putting a leather product on it would stop this, but then, it could only be a product that sat on the surface, like a sealant.
> 
> But then that would stop it breathing, which isn't good.
> 
> Either way, water wouldn't appear to help if it won't soak through.
> 
> More than anything, i'm used to bike leathers, i know that once they finally let water through (it takes a long while and a good soaking) that they go hard and brittle once dried, naturally or speedily. Applying a bees wax product helps them a lot, it makes them softer and has waterproofing properties as well. I don't mean softer to touch, any surface treatment can be formulated to fake that. I mean softer in movement etc, they really do change from it.
> 
> On this basis, even if you ignore the whole coating on the surface thing, the water being the only thing to penetrate leather thing stated by LTT would seem to be completely untrue.
> 
> Some of you may now understand why i'm questioning what's been said. I don't know the answer one way or another, but too many things do not make sense nor have explanations which backup the claims.


I don't think it would stop it breathing, well not the products that we are commonly applying as they would be porus themselves , but from what you posted regarding the motorcycle leathers, it would seem just as with other 'challenges' that prevention is better than cure, so coating the surface with some kind of hydrophobic layer will slow down the soaking damaging effect


----------



## Gids64

This sort of solid hide has the depth to absorb and retain the moisture that the light oils in saddle soap provides. Domestic leather, car interior leather, is the same sort of hide only split several times making it thinner. A single hide if split twice will produce a leather suface hide and a suede hide. The thinner it gets the less it can retain.


----------



## bmkk

Gids64 said:


> This sort of solid hide has the depth to absorb and retain the moisture that the light oils in saddle soap provides. Domestic leather, car interior leather, is the same sort of hide only split several times making it thinner. A single hide if split twice will produce a leather suface hide and a suede hide. The thinner it gets the less it can retain.


Whats the best product to protect the leather?


----------



## Gids64

Depends on what you want to protect it from. I am not familiar with all the products listed. Furniture Clinic range is excellent so is the AG stuff. 

Every section of your cars leather interior is different, each section of seat and pad will be made from sections of hides from many different animals. All cow hide probably, but not the same cow. That is why some sections hold up well to everyday use and some won't. Although all the hides will have had the same Tanning process, everyone will take it slightly differently. Some will be stronger and hold the finish for longer than other sections.

Surface protectors will give you durability.


----------



## MaDMaXX

Avanti, if they're porous, which is likely, then surely they're not going to protect too well either?
Also, again, regarding the motorcycle leathers, even afetr being soaked multiple times, the bee's wax does rejuvenate them again, it's not just the coating, as that soaks in over the course of about 24 hours, the leather is left softer and moisturised again.

However, as you said, the car seat leather is more for effect than the protection motorcycle leathers are designed for 


Just had word back from BrianS, of the older leather thread, he say's he's come to the conclusion that modern car seats don't need conditioning and that cleaners are probably best.


----------



## RaceGlazer

*A short statement from Race Glaze Ltd*

Race Glaze Leather Clease and Leather Conditioner are water based. Both products have been on the market since the mid-1990's with no reported cases of damage to any leather surfaces and many positive comments from users.
You can buy our products with confidence.

End.


----------



## gt5500

philworrall said:


> Now here is another one to cloudy the waters.
> My sister and nearly every girl friend that I have had has been a horse rider / owner.
> They treat their leather saddles with water and saddle soap. When they slap it on they go to town, the leather definitely gets wet but it is some of the softest and flexible leather I have ever touched. The older the leather the softer the leather gets. AND you never see cracks in saddles that have been cleaned this way.
> 
> What do the rest of you think?
> 
> P


As has been mentioned already equestrian leather is very different to automotive leather. Automotive leather is coated with a finish compleatly different to equestrian leather, this point I do agree with JudyB on, having sold leather sofa's in the past I can tell you aniline (uncoated) leather and coated leather is a world apart and as such needs different treatment.


----------



## akimel

Folks may find this wiki article by Jon Miller of interest: *Basic Automotive Leather Care*. Also see the leather care instructions given by *Eagle Ottawa*, a manufacturer of auto interior leather.

The problem that all of us have is that we are not leather experts and therefore are not in a position to judge between the views expressed by individuals who claim to know what they are talking about. So unless we are willing and able to become "experts" ourselves, we really are stuck. Ultimately, all we can do is to decide whom we are going to trust.

Having read through this thread, I do believe that some folks have been unfair to JudyB, whom I do not know and whose products I do not use. All she has done is to present her opinions in an authoritative manner, which she asserts are based on long experience with the leather industry. Her answers to your questions have been direct though admittedly unsatisfactory at times, but that is to be expected in a forum like this. You cannot expect her to provide a dissertation with documentation. She is simply presenting her "expert" opinion. You either believe her or you don't. Ditto for the other experts.

The question is: Are water-based products better for finished automobile leather or not? Heck if I know, though I admit that I have become persuaded than they might be. If water-based products are better, then the oil-based products that are so popular today are not the best products for us to be using--and it doesn't matter who is making them! If it is true that auto leather does not need to be fed various oils but only needs water hydration and if it is true that the oils in oil-based conditioning products do not in fact penetrate through an intact top coat anyway, then the marketing claims advanced on behalf of oil-based conditioning products must be considered suspect, if not bogus. These products may not really be harmful to finished leather--as several people have pointed out, nobody's car seats appear to have been damaged through the regular use of Gliptone, Meguiar's, Lexol, or Leatherique--but this doesn't mean that oil-based products are just as good as water-based products.

Given that I am not able to become a leather expert myself, I do not know how to adjudicate between the competing knowledge claims advanced by various leather experts. I do tend to trust more a company that is dedicated to leather care than one for whom leather care is simply a tiny part of their business. But this doesn't resolve the problem for me, as there are companies out there who specialize in leather care who make oil-based conditioning products. So what's a guy to do? It's like trying to decide between all the conflicting claims advanced by nutrition experts. Everyone is selling something.

For what it's worth, yesterday I sat down with the Vice President of Leather World Technologies, an internet firm in my hometown that sells leather care products. He seems to know a bunch about leather, and he too is convinced that water-based products are the way for us to go when it comes to finished leather. So I bought a bottle of Leather Master leather cleaner and a bottle of Syn-Bios leather protectant. 
_ 
You pays your money and you takes your chances.
_
Cheers,
Al


----------



## philworrall

RaceGlazer said:


> *A short statement from Race Glaze Ltd*
> 
> Race Glaze Leather Clease and Leather Conditioner are water based. Both products have been on the market since the mid-1990's with no reported cases of damage to any leather surfaces and many positive comments from users.
> You can buy our products with confidence.
> 
> End.


Hi Mark, I use your products regularly and I'm happy with them. I have used your conditioner regularly over the winter while my car is off the road. However, your cleaner is NOT water based, it is glyglycerine based. Your advert is copied below.

Leather Cleanse Cleaner.
Cleans the most fragile leather with minimal saturation. Glycerine based. Use prior to application of Leather Balm on seats - simply wipe the seat with a damp cloth, apply a little product to a soft brush and gently foam up. Buff seat dry.


----------



## Rich @ PB

I have to say, out of all the leather care systems we have tried, only two have really impressed us - the Raceglaze twins, and the Gloss It twins. We base our findings on practical hands on experience on cars that come in to us on a regular basis for maintenance work. Both of the above systems clean very nicely and leave a beautiful factory look, with no sign of any damage after extended periods of use. I do intend to get Clark to attend a formal training course at some point, but for now, we go with what works best based on practical hands on experience.


----------



## snapsnap

akimel said:


> Having read through this thread, I do believe that some folks have been unfair to JudyB, whom I do not know and whose products I do not use.


Could not agree more.


----------



## bmkk

judyb said:


> Is a fact truly a fact if it can be disputed?
> 
> We would dispute virtually every part of the 'facts' as presented by Ben but this will take some time to do as we need to clarify each point made.
> We are busy teaching at the moment so do not have time to respond in full but this will follow.


 waiting to read what you have to say


----------



## -ROM-

bmkk said:


> waiting to read what you have to say


+1....


----------



## Spirit Detailing

bmkk said:


> waiting to read what you have to say


Everything that is being asked in this thread has been answered before. Oils harm the urethane finish on leather seats, regardless of whether the conditioner is water-based or not. Think of it this way. Motor oil is supplied in HDPE containers because if LDPE was used it would corrode and leak pretty quickly. Same thing applies to the oils in conditioners on the soft topcoat of the leather seat.

Run a search and cross-reference the word "conditioner" against threads by Judy or Ben or myself and you will get the answers you need. Judy can't hold everybody's hand, but I can vouch that her products are very good, her facts are sound and certainly her patience is limitless!


----------



## RaceGlazer

Phil - are you the guy with the TR (rosso/nero) I demo'd the products to at Blenheim Spring FOC Picnic ?


----------



## bmkk

BrianS said:


> Everything that is being asked in this thread has been answered before. Oils harm the urethane finish on leather seats, regardless of whether the conditioner is water-based or not. Think of it this way. Motor oil is supplied in HDPE containers because if LDPE was used it would corrode and leak pretty quickly. Same thing applies to the oils in conditioners on the soft topcoat of the leather seat.
> 
> Run a search and cross-reference the word "conditioner" against threads by Judy or Ben or myself and you will get the answers you need. Judy can't hold everybody's hand, but I can vouch that her products are very good, her facts are sound and certainly her patience is limitless!


i have tried searching cant find anything specific can you clarify which are dangerous and which are safe in a simple list please and which one is the best one thanks:thumb:


----------



## Avanti

bmkk said:


> i have tried searching cant find anything specific can you clarify which are dangerous and which are safe in a simple list please and which one is the best one thanks:thumb:


I suppose it is hard to define best, however what you will need is an adequate and safe system , of which almost any purpose product on the domestic market will suffice .


----------



## Spirit Detailing

bmkk said:


> i have tried searching cant find anything specific can you clarify which are dangerous and which are safe in a simple list please and which one is the best one thanks:thumb:


Its easier if I say this. I won't use a "conditioner" ever again. Just a cleaner and a separate scent product.


----------



## bmkk

BrianS said:


> Its easier if I say this. *I won't use a "conditioner" ever again*. Just a cleaner and a separate scent product.


That is an avasive answer ! what we are trying to find out are Product names that are going to protect leather seats not harm them and condition them. If you read judy posts in this post you will find that she said her products do condition the seats with water flurochemicals or something like that and you agreed what she said is sound but you you have stated you "won't use conditioner ever again" so could you please explain Thanks:thumb:


----------



## bidderman1969

probably means something thats sold as a "conditioner"


----------



## MaDMaXX

BMK, careful, Brian's helping here. Products are marked as conditioner specifically, it's those he will not use, and having spoken to him before he started posting on this thread, i've good reason to believe that you can't bring back or recondition really badly worn/dried leather on car seats.

As i'm happy enough to accept that we can't conditioner car seats (specifically) I now personally want to know the most appropriate cleaner.

This can also open up the question of cleaners and protectors, perhaps we could now discuss this?

And can someone please find out what's in Gliptone's *cleaner* ?


----------



## bmkk

MaDMaXX said:


> BMK, careful, Brian's helping here. Products are marked as conditioner specifically, it's those he will not use, and having spoken to him before he started posting on this thread, i've good reason to believe that you can't bring back or recondition really badly worn/dried leather on car seats.
> 
> As i'm happy enough to accept that we can't conditioner car seats (specifically) I now personally want to know the most appropriate cleaner.
> 
> This can also open up the question of cleaners and protectors, perhaps we could now discuss this?
> 
> And can someone please find out what's in Gliptone's *cleaner* ?


Ok cool i understand what he is saying now:thumb: Yeph good point cleaner and protectors plenty of good cleaners out but its the protectors which ones are the good one as the conditioners say protect leather i think this the part that is baffling as these products are the one that use oils ... I would also would like to know that i mean whats in gliptone


----------



## Phil_b88

bmkk have you tried contacting gliptone themselves? they should be able to tell you :thumb:


----------



## philworrall

RaceGlazer said:


> Phil - are you the guy with the TR (rosso/nero) I demo'd the products to at Blenheim Spring FOC Picnic ?


Mark you have an excellent memory, yes that was me except it was a TR Rosso Crema. I am still using the cleaner and conditioner, good stuff :thumb: . I will get some more cleaner from you when we meet again this summer. You may remember that I had one small patch of leather that was "dry" to touch. I have never been able to soften that piece regardless of how many times I apply conditioner.

I have a few questions regarding Zimol red or rouge or ital or whatever they call it these days. Shall I PM you?

Phil


----------



## RaceGlazer

As above: 'i've good reason to believe that you can't bring back or recondition really badly worn/dried leather on car seats'

You can bring back really badly dried our seats and our Conditioner will - when leather dries out the fibres dry and become harder, less supple, but you can restock them with moisture, then they expand back to normal size and texture. Modern leather seats/trim dries out quicker as they are much thinner than classics. 

It may take multiple applications over many months - keep going Phil !


----------



## MaDMaXX

Raceglaze, are you saying that your water based conditioner *will* bring back dry hard leather, specifically on car seats, even though they're very thin and have a coating on them that prevent liquid penetration?


----------



## bmkk

MaDMaXX said:


> Raceglaze, are you saying that your water based conditioner *will* bring back dry hard leather, specifically on car seats, even though they're very thin and have a coating on them that prevent liquid penetration?


very good question:thumb: Will be intresting to hear what going to be said


----------



## bmkk

Still no Judy B


----------



## RaceGlazer

No guarantees, can never do so without seeing the seat, and it might take months, but might - so much depends on the leather - newish seats I assume ?
I am going on what the technologists behind my products tell me here (yes, we have them too) but am away for much of the next week and may not be able to follow the thread - fallen behind already.


----------



## MaDMaXX

Raceglazer, could you confirm that the conditioner is water based then, someone pointed out it wasn't based on the info from your webpage?

Thanks.


----------



## RaceGlazer

I know - I want to nail this before committing, but the website copy was was inherited when I bought RG and I have reason to believe it may be incorrect. Will confirm on Monday.


----------



## MaDMaXX

Thanks Mark, i'll await the confirmation.


----------



## bmkk

whats happend Still no answers


----------



## Danno1975

bmkk said:


> Are the three in one any good like meguairs? or do they damage leather? Zaino two step any good ? has anybody used the product are they any good ? Which one is a good protector?:wall:
> 
> I have cream leathers and they just seem to get marked so  easy


I swear by Gliptone, used it on the last three of my leather trimmed BMWs and it kept the leather in fantastic condition and I also got the Scuff Master for touching in any, well Scuffs and its great.

Carefull if its an old bottle though I did the seats in our New Mini at the weekend and sadly the wonderfull smell of natural leather has been replaced with a chemical smell with a faint overtone of Horse Manure, a fresh bottle to undo this problem is on its way . I also used it for the last 5 years on a DFS sofa that I amazingly managed to get in one of their "rare" sales!!, aside from needing re padding the leather is still great, though I recently got a colour matched Scuff master to dab in some of the bits where there has been some colour rub off, they'll even do you a big bottle and a spray gun if you were tempted to do a larger restoration.

Good product.


----------



## Epoch

I take it this poll is dictated by the fact anybody not voting for LTT haven't used their products


----------



## Danno1975

Hi,

I never heard of LTT till today and I am sure they are great, only I used Gliptone for Donkeys and that's great too so each to there own, why would I change now? (aside from this latest poo smell situation  perhaps. 

Not sure if it really soaks in or not but as a test, on leather effect vinyl (such as on my old Calibras Door trim) it would still be there the following day, moist and shiny, whereas on the leather areas it had gone and a nice pleasing mat finish is left along with (generally) a nice leather smell and (on first use on older cars) noticeable softness, both my cars where and still are pretty new so the leather was already soft. (ps Daytona Leather in the new BMW'S is pants), pay the extra I wish I had, the Lounge leather in our Mini is so much better quality!!.

No doubt some sits on the leather, hence my shirts smelling "leathery" for a few days after treating!!!, and a damp wipe every week or so does revive the odour too.

Gliptone are a bunch of no nonsense Yorkshire men their number is +44(0)1706 819365 I am sure they could explain it all to any one who want's to give them a quick ring.


----------



## MaDMaXX

Someone call them and ask about their cleaner and their protector/conditioner.


----------



## Danno1975

MaDMaXX said:


> Someone call them and ask about their cleaner and their protector/conditioner.


Cor your a bit bossy, can't you call them?


----------



## KleenChris

Danno1975 said:


> Cor your a bit bossy, can't you call them?


:lol:


----------



## MaDMaXX

That should of had a smiley on the end, but, no, not really, i was at work....


----------



## bmkk

Epoch said:


> I take it this poll is dictated by the fact anybody not voting for LTT haven't used their products


I take it thats an assumption as you could of tried and thought it was crap and stuck to Gliptone therefore voting for Gliptone


----------



## bmkk

Danno1975 said:


> I swear by Gliptone, used it on the last three of my leather trimmed BMWs and it kept the leather in fantastic condition and I also got the Scuff Master for touching in any, well Scuffs and its great.
> 
> Carefull if its an old bottle though I did the seats in our New Mini at the weekend and sadly the wonderfull smell of natural leather has been replaced with a chemical smell with a faint overtone of Horse Manure, a fresh bottle to undo this problem is on its way . I also used it for the last 5 years on a DFS sofa that I amazingly managed to get in one of their "rare" sales!!, aside from needing re padding the leather is still great, though I recently got a colour matched Scuff master to dab in some of the bits where there has been some colour rub off, they'll even do you a big bottle and a spray gun if you were tempted to do a larger restoration.
> 
> Good product.


Does it protect the leather?


----------



## bmkk

Danno1975 said:


> Cor your a bit bossy, can't you call them?


:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:


----------



## bmkk

Information : have been chatting to Judy Crafty B in another post and she has given some informative info on some other products she has recommended for protection but guess what you cant buy them over the net ? really helpfull she is crafty B so if anybody can find how and where to purchase please post especially the italian stuff as i think the wipes are really handy for quick job :thumb:


----------



## NickCW

Heard good things about Gliptone but I tend to use Meguiars, I have tried Poorboys natural look and it was awful, tried a few techniques and it left it very shiny and I didn't like the smell. The Meguiars two stage process with aloe wasn't great either, did the same.

However their two in one leather clean/conditioner is great, it makes the car smell of leather again and leaves the seats with a lush matte finish - to be honest I haven't tried anything else yet because the only thing that could be better is durability, and I'm worried about spending to much on something I don't like!


----------



## Danno1975

bmkk said:


> Does it protect the leather?


I would say yes, no scientific back up, but as I said I have been using it since the late 90's first on a Calibra (then a gap for a cloth Puma) and from 2001 on several BMW's. The first was a slightly abused 3 year old E36 Coupe with some worn and hard Silver Sport Leather (seemed very thick), used the Gliptone Scuff master to mask some rub off and scuffs and used the Cleaner and Conditioner, there was a definate improvement and when I flogged it the leather looked, smelt and felt better than when I got it 40k and 3 years (75k)earlier. Also used it on the black Nappa in my E46 Sport Saloon, 30k in 3 years in that (80k) and it was great when I sold it on. Only had to touch in some bolster wear from a jeans rivet incident.

I now use it on my E91s Daytona Sport Leather and the Minis loungewood leather and aside from the smelly batch I used its still making the leather feel better, the cleaner is actually stopping the nice matt finsih sport rim go hard and shiny it does seem to add a certain "quailty" to it.

As I also noted my DFS sofa is still lovely and soft and aside from colour rub on over stiched over laps and de plumped padding its looking great after 5 years and I am even shelling out 600 notes to re pad it I am so confident we'll get another 5 years (we also have a 2 year old and a "spirited 6 stone Boxer" to attack it .

I'd be careful of saying "protects" no cream can stop it getting scuffed, worn or ripped by jean rivets etc, and jeans are terribly abrasive to leather I have been told, all that will save that is an Argos seat cover. But is does stop it drying out creasing and cracking because it keeps it supple.

Bit of a ramble there mate, sorry but hope it helped, new to detailing but always been crazy about leather seat protection, hate worn ripped bolsters etc.

Danno


----------



## Throbber

I was reallly impressed with the Einzsett leather cleaner, left a nice matt finish and a good leathery smell too. 

Anyone else used it?

Surpised it didn't get a mention.


----------



## The Detail Doctor

I recently tried Furniture Clinic cleaner on the Ivory leather steering wheel on my 500, I was really impressed by it.


----------



## MaDMaXX

Danno, is that Gliptone cleaner or conditioner?

Also, ignore the leather sofa for any comparison you do, it seems that car seat leather is quite different and coated in something.


----------



## Danno1975

MaDMaXX said:


> That should of had a smiley on the end, but, no, not really, i was at work....


Sorry Max if I've offended you, not intentional, would have popped on a smiley if you had thus indicating the jovial nature of your post, as it was from the tone of your previous posts you seemed a bit of a bossy boots .

My humblest apologies, just a thought though, as you were at work posting on the forum could you have emailed Gliptone rather than instructing what in consideration of the proximity to my post giving you the number was me to do it?, I was'nt at work, I was in Starbucks but I was much happier eating my Steak and Three Cheese Paninii 

Peace!!.


----------



## Danno1975

MaDMaXX said:


> Danno, is that Gliptone cleaner or conditioner?
> 
> Also, ignore the leather sofa for any comparison you do, it seems that car seat leather is quite different and coated in something.


Hi Mad Maxx,

I use both, twice a year, a wash and a condition, inbetween just damp wipe I think the technical name is GT11 and 12?.

Danno


----------



## MaDMaXX

Danno, no worries, and i tend to come off sterner than i intend, but some of the things at the start of this thread were next to useless for us people sitting on the fence because neither side will backup their info 

Hmm, the bottle of Gliptone i have here (Dad purchased a while back) seems to be conditioning cream, with water, oil and dirt repellent.

Also mentions for: Saddles * Harness, Motorcycle, Sports and Walking apparel.

Little odd, it's either just different marketing range, or not actually for leather car seats.

Other than Gliptone's next to useless site, does anyone have any links, pics/information on their stuff?


----------



## MaDMaXX

Just found this info on a website, liquidleather.com, which looks so bad it could actually be their website.



liquidleather.com said:


> The cleaning has been done with Gliptone Liquid Leather Cleaner GT12: the cleaner was applied neat from the bottle and GENTLY STIRRED into the leather with a soft nailbrush. YOU MUST NOT SCRUB. After stirring into the leather, leave for a few minutes then stir again, finally wiping off the dirt with a damp cloth; repeat if necessary. Then apply two coats of Liquid Leather Conditioner GT11; this will soak in immediately, no polishing off is required if you apply sparingly, and a couple of hours later you can use the leather.
> 
> Re-treat with GT11 Conditioner every 3 months or more depending on your climate, always wiping off any dust and dirt from your leather before applying the Conditioner.
> 
> If you have leather subject to rain and dirt, for example clothing, veteran cars, convertibles, motorcycle leathers and saddles etc, use Liquid Leather Conditioner GT13 with water and dirt repellant.


I have the GT13 it seams, hence the extra oil/water/dirt repellents.

gliptone.com appears to be something else by an American company, doesn't appear related, although it does a load of car stuff.


----------



## bmkk

MaDMaXX said:


> Danno, no worries, and i tend to come off sterner than i intend, but some of the things at the start of this thread were next to useless for us people sitting on the fence because neither side will backup their info
> QUOTE]
> 
> The way things are going still no real answers. Judy crafty B has not replied she said she would but she has not i dont think she is going to either she had time to reply in the other post to me but not in this one as 3500 views cant take the pressure as bs is getting caught out. I was feeling a bit guilty before about giving a hard time but i realise why i was she dont Fg answer the question Crafty B i think this should be her new name:lol::lol: Raceglaze still waiting for answer


----------



## Danno1975

MaDMaXX said:


> Just found this info on a website, liquidleather.com, which looks so bad it could actually be their website.
> 
> I have the GT13 it seams, hence the extra oil/water/dirt repellents.
> 
> gliptone.com appears to be something else by an American company, doesn't appear related, although it does a load of car stuff.


Yep, thats it, their site is pants its not changed in like 10 years!!!!!  but I think their gear is very good, as I said been applying it to all my cars for years and not one of them have had anything other than fantastic leather .

If you think about it I think I have used it on a staggering 70+ grands worth of cars (thats what I paid for them not the new price apart from the current BMW) so I would'nt have kept using it is it was no good.


----------



## MaDMaXX

Well, that was my Dad's argument, and i haven't seen issues with it, so i don't understand where half this thread has come from. It's weird.


----------



## chris'svr6

This is really a can of open worms isn't it??? I will happily put my hand up and say i do use LTT products, i have even attended their course, which is very informative. I know a few of the pro's here have attended aswell. I do believe Judy does get given alot of stick on here, which is not deserved, i can't think of any other sponsor who is heckeled asmuch. She, and her partner do run a very busy business, and i'm sure she will reply in due course, some people aren't very patient, she can't wait online all day because of a few sceptics. I am not starting any haggles here, i am very happy with their products, they will happily anwser any queries over the phone, and are always polite, and i would recommend their products, but i am sure that there are other products that are just as good on the market, not being a technician on leather, i can't and won't name any other names products.


----------



## Benn

Well i've just picked up my leather retrim, so i want something to clean and protect it.

I've read thru most of this thread and havent really got anyway.
Gliptone has been voted most in the poll, abd Ltt has been talked about alot.
Both get good reviews..

But whats better then? A water based or oil based conditiner?


----------



## chris'svr6

I will tell you water based, The LTT products are very good, i have'nt tried anyother water based products, so cant comment on them, but i have tried numerous other oil based products, and will now be sticking to water :thumb:


----------



## Avanti

Benn said:


> Well i've just picked up my leather retrim, so i want something to clean and protect it.
> 
> I've read thru most of this thread and havent really got anyway.
> Gliptone has been voted most in the poll, abd Ltt has been talked about alot.
> Both get good reviews..
> 
> But whats better then? A water based or oil based conditiner?


Didn't you read the thread? :lol:
There are a lot of products about and many if not all are good, the only question I have is 'does modern leather really require conditioning?'
I'm glad to see some are now putting their hands up to trying certain products as in fairness the earlier impression I was getting is that if you don't use product 'X' on your leather , then you are due to burn in hell :devil:


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## Benn

Yeah, i did. But it was very x is best, no y is best. No real finely answer was found..lol


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## Avanti

Benn said:


> Yeah, i did. But it was very x is best, no y is best. No real finely answer was found..lol


The end of the day there is no best and one just needs a product fit for the purpose, and from the poll list there are plenty and some not listed.
All though some will put their hands up to using a particular product, I couldnt imagine many have gone through an array of leather products until the 'right' one was found and adhered to :thumb:


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## akimel

My guess (and it's only a guess) is that it probably doesn't matter. It may well be true that a good water-based protectant may be theoretically superior to a good oil-based conditioner; but the testimonies of those who have used the latter over many years demonstrate that good oil-based conditioners can keep finished leather seats in tip-top condition. The key is not to neglect the leather. I suspect that problems with leather only develop with it is not well maintained. 

I have decided to use water-based products on my leather seats. I hope I will get as good long-term results as those who have been using Gliptone and Zaino.


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## Benn

Avanti said:


> The end of the day there is no best and one just needs a product fit for the purpose, and from the poll list there are plenty and some not listed.
> All though some will put their hands up to using a particular product, I couldnt imagine many have gone through an array of leather products until the 'right' one was found and adhered to :thumb:


Yeah true, i was thinking more of this oil based or water based..


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## bmkk

:devil: The Results Are In ! :devil:

I have done lots of research and analysis and the conclusion is buy and use anything that is meant to do the job. Oily products are meant to be good for the old leather and all the new products are meant to be using some sort of water based system to transfer product to leather apart from handfull anyway. Crafty B still has not answered and i will be suprised if she is going to. I think i will stick with the larger manufacturers as they have been doing it for years and must be testing and developing to meet new standards of leather that is being used. I am still looking for leather protectors so if anbody has used a good quality one please post. Not LTT thanks:devil: and thank you for such a big response :thumb:

Race Glaze What happend to your reply still waiting:wall:


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## Benn

Well the gliptones made the head rest very nice..lol


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## gt5500

chris'svr6 said:


> I do believe Judy does get given alot of stick on here, which is not deserved, i can't think of any other sponsor who is heckeled asmuch.


Thats because as far as I can tell no other trader uses such heavy handed tactics to promote their product, and I can't remember seeing any other trader heckling another trader in posts either. On numerous occassions I have seen Raceglazer and Benn and Colin get hassled when JudyB when they have answered someone's questions, its not very proffessional and TBH I steer clear of any products that claim to be better then everyone elses.


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## Benn

Is it ba then i've never notived her till this thread? lol


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## Danno1975

*Smelly*

DEleted


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## bmkk

thanks for the link but it does not seem to work liquid leather one


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## Danno1975

]

Doh!, thats what happens when you try to work off your blackberry.

Thanks for sorting out that link BMKK.

Just on another note, re my earlier post on my Mini's seats smelling since adding the Gliptone, it does appear the smell is from something the previous owner had done and it was just the act of wetting the leather that activated the pong (its only done 4k so no idea what the first owner treated it with) but every time it gets damp from wiping/cleaning it pongs a bit, I am hoping it will fade, other wise I have no idea what to do, I doubt you can fabreeze leather!!!!.

Regards Dan.


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## willj

A few years ago there was a decent thread about leather maintenance over on Autopia. Some guy (a chemist in the industry) had done a thorough analysis on most of the brands around the market at the time, even down to chemical composition etc.

His conclusion was that Lexol made the best products in the market.


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## RaceGlazer

I found the a very comprehensive piece on Gliptone

Read it and make your own mind up


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## philworrall

Hi Mark,
As you know I use your raceglaze product. The conditioner "sits on" my leather and does not sink in easily if at all. It woould be interesting to compare it with Gliptones equivalent.
Is there any chance of getting a very small sample to try on my crema and black leather. 

Thanks, (see you at the shows this year).

Phil


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## gt5500

RaceGlazer said:


> I found the very comprehensive piece on Gliptones
> *Read it and make your own mind up.*
> 
> .


That is the right attitude for a trader, well done :thumb:
I do not think the right attitiude is to openly knock someone elses views and then not substatiate them or give any further comment when people don't just roll over and take your word for it.


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## gt5500

philworrall said:


> Hi Mark,
> As you know I use your raceglaze product. The conditioner "sits on" my leather and does not sink in easily if at all. It woould be interesting to compare it with Gliptones equivalent.
> Is there any chance of getting a very small sample to try on my crema and black leather.
> 
> Thanks, (see you at the shows this year).
> 
> Phil


It does say on the Gliptone article that in some cases the leather will not even absorb water, in these cases they say that no conditioner will work.


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## MaDMaXX

Uh, what competitive piece? i can't see a link


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## philworrall

GT5500 thats the problem I have. I dont think conditioners work on my leather.


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## gt5500

MaDMaXX said:


> Uh, what competitive piece? i can't see a link


Its on the Gliptone website I think the link was removed, check it out they even mention you in it:thumb:


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## gt5500

philworrall said:


> GT5500 thats the problem I have. I dont think conditioners work on my leather.


Sorry I can't help you with that, wish I could as one of my seats has gone plasticky. Its the passenger seat, the car was ex executive so the passenger seat was probably used very little so it takes a hammering from the A/C blowing dry cold air at it. I would like to get it soft again but I don't think it will, the Furniture clinic stuff soaked into it (either that or it evapourated) but it didn't soften at all.


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## CPU

Gaz W said:


> I at first actually heavily criticized LTT, I then used their products and was blown away with the results. The products are well priced, well made, simple to use, and give incredibly effective results.
> 
> Yes, they may come across, as if they are effectively saying, everything else is rubbish, use our products, they are the best.
> 
> To the comments of, if other manufacturers are selling bad products after market research etc. Its proven, that washing your car at a Car Wash causes damage, although thousands of people still take their car to one each year. Same scenario with these leather products. Same Job, better/worse results.


I too like Gaz was sceptical to say the least. I spoke to Judy and ordered some LTT prodcuts. To be honest after using LTT i wouldn't consider anything else....and no i don't work fof them. My leather looks and feels great, and stays cleaner longer. :wave:


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## MaDMaXX

That Q&A post by Gliptone was exactly what a lot of us were after, as a result it's cemented the fact i'm using the right stuff, though i have the oil based one for outside use and motorcycle leathers, so i'll pick up the car interior version.


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## gt5500

CPU said:


> I too like Gaz was sceptical to say the least. I spoke to Judy and ordered some LTT prodcuts. To be honest after using LTT i wouldn't consider anything else....and no i don't work fof them. My leather looks and feels great, and stays cleaner longer. :wave:


And this is fine we have no issues with the product but other people are happy with other products and wouldn't use anything else, the problem was some of these people felt they were being told not to use them. Out of interest what other products have you tried?


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## SXI

Used Turtle Wax last night. It was ok but looking on here has gave me idea for the future.


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## Baracuda

I'm no leather expert but i would like to share my thoughts, if anyone cares 

I have tried plenty of leather care products, from armorall wipes to Zyrnol cleaner/treat. The only product that, in my opinion, brings something new is Leatherique 2 step treatment.

I am using it on my AMG mercs, i'm not saying this to brag but i want to point out that they come with a "special" type of leather/finish called Nappa Exclusiv.

The way i do it :

- Vacuum seats
- Wipe them with a damp MF and distiled water or bottled drinking water
(At this point the MF gets all the dust dirt on the surface, i am repeating this step 1-2 times until i make sure nothing else comes off)
- Turn on the heating to max, push the seats heating system also (About 30min)
- Apply L Rej Oil using a MF glove and massage it in the seats (2 applications on each seat)
- Put a plastic bag on the seats (I'm using 50L garbage bags  )
- Turn on the heat, seats for another 30min
- Leave it overnight or ~12hours

In the morning, after i remove the plastic bags i find the seats with some sticky residue on and i wipe them with L Pristine Clean and a MF. And guess what ? The new MF towel is dirty again. As i said, i am no leather expert but i beleive that this product does what it says. Leaves a nice mate finish, not greasy of slippy and a leather scent.

Since i was impressed with the results i wanted to use it on my daily driver also. A C200 CDI. This entry level model comes with a different type of leather, it's not as smooth nor as soft and it looks like it has some sort of coating on it. Leatherique did not damage the seats in any way but it didn't do much good on the leather also because i was not able to massage it into the seats, it stayed on the surface spreading around from one place to another. Pristine clean did a nice job in cleaning the dirt that was left on the surface but one can do that with any leather cleaner or even soapy water.


In conclusion i agree with what some people said on this topic (Yes, i've read the whole 20pages before posting). Some products clean, some do nothing else than dress and give a nice scent. I beleive that the succes/failure rate comes also from the leather your car has. So, if you have a C200...don't buy a "conditioner"...it will do nothing.

Hope this helped


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## MaDMaXX

Interesting, though i wouldn't go so far as to say don't buy conditioner for it. Check out that Gliptone link a page back and i think you'll find that portion is covered there.


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## Baracuda

No, i was speaking about the L Rejuvenator Oil. It can't condition the leather if it can't penetrate the coating that is over it.
Leatherique pristine clean did the job right by cleaning the seats, on the surface.


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## MaDMaXX

You can try the Gliptone normal conditioner, it's water based instead.


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## Avanti

Baracuda said:


> No, i was speaking about the L Rejuvenator Oil. It can't condition the leather if it can't penetrate the coating that is over it.
> Leatherique pristine clean did the job right by cleaning the seats, on the surface.


No it may not, but I think a lot of these products are a play on words.


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## Baracuda

MaDMaXX said:


> You can try the Gliptone normal conditioner, it's water based instead.


I will, i'm curious if it will do something.



Avanti said:


> No it may not, but I think a lot of these products are a play on words.


True but that rej oil takes the dirt out. I have seen it with my own eyes and i have no reason to denaturate the facts. Nothing to gain or to loose.
I am only interested in products that work, as i am sure everyone else is. And this product, imho, lived up to it's marketing.


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## MaDMaXX

Well, as stated in the Gliptone Q&A, use of the seats will create the micro cracks in the finishes required to let this stuff in, by all means, give it a try and see if anything happens.
I have the outdoor/clothing based Gliptone that's been working well, but i'm going to order the normal car interior stuff shortly.


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## bidderman1969

cant believe this thread is 21 pages long already! lol


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## Avanti

Baracuda said:


> I will, i'm curious if it will do something.
> 
> True but that rej oil takes the dirt out. I have seen it with my own eyes and i have no reason to denaturate the facts. Nothing to gain or to loose.
> I am only interested in products that work, as i am sure everyone else is. And this product, imho, lived up to it's marketing.


Well you are in the same school as me, I have no doubt that the product you tried works, the product I use works too , in fact it would be interesting to find a product that doesn't work.


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