# Day One of Wet Sanding Tuition with Kelly at KDS...



## MidlandsCarCare (Feb 18, 2006)

5am isn't an hour of the day I see very often, but my alarm was set for that time this morning to give me plenty of time to drive down to a very chilly Gillingham...


DSC01421 by RussZS, on Flickr

I'm very lucky to be down at Kelly's for a few days, mainly for one-to-one tuition, particularly looking at wet sanding to remove orange peel, which of course he has a rather good reputation for... :argie:

The bulk of today was spent on a test panel (scrap bonnet), talking through various methods of sanding, the differences between hand, block and machine, dry sanding and also how to correctly set up PDG's and properly assess removal rates from a fixed point.

Now unfortunately I don't have very many photos uploaded tonight, as my internet connection is VERY slow, but a LOT more will follow when the tuition is completed. However, I wanted to give a flavour of this enlightening first day.

This is the panel before we started. Note the orange peel/jagged line around the skylight and the cabling across the wall. I've discovered that it's quite difficult to capture just how bad orange peel can be on a camera, which makes some of the threads Kelly has put up all the more impressive for me tbh. This was VERY severe, which hopefully is conveyed to an extent by the pic.


DSC01443 by RussZS, on Flickr

We worked through various methods and processes, and I used a wide variety of discs and papers, but decided to sand the bulk of the portion of the panel I was working on, by hand:


DSC01603 by RussZS, on Flickr

This pic shows the finish after my first set with 1500 Grit by hand, as you can see the orange peel, whilst flatter to an extent, is still present, so more work was needed


DSC01628 by RussZS, on Flickr

This pic was after 2000 Grit by hand, with a block supporting - I preferred flatting by hand, you get a lot more of a feel for what the paper is doing and if you have any defects in the paint, or dirt between the paper/panel (although you can hear this too if working with either method without machine).


DSC01630 by RussZS, on Flickr

You can see that most of the orange peel in the centre is removed at this stage (ignore the edges where it's still present, as I'd not overlapped this area, which would normally be dealt with if working an entire panel)

After 3000 grit, we can begin to see the true finish we have, and the reflective properties of the paint begin to be restored, and the improved clarity becomes very evident:


DSC01650 by RussZS, on Flickr

Then, at this stage, I was shown how you can refine further via paper with 4000, or begin correcting via machine. I tried both Megs MF system via G220 and a Flex Rotary with S3 Gold and a Scholl Wool Pad, with some VERY interesting results (which will be shared in the full thread...)

Now, obviously the lighting is different as it's later in the day, but hopefully the difference in clarity is quite evident in this picture - I was gobsmacked after I finished removing the sanding marks with a machine:


DSC01671 by RussZS, on Flickr

It really was an eye opener for me in quite a few ways. I think the key points I took from today were the differences between hand and machine, a true appreciation for how time consuming orange peel removal done correctly, can be and just how truly impressive this process can be in terms of results. The finish on the panel afterwards was stunning, and nothing like I've ever been able to achieve before. Swirl removal is one thing, but this is really something else.

Tomorrow, we begin on this...


DSC00078 by RussZS, on Flickr

Oh and this...


DSC01525 by RussZS, on Flickr

is nothing short of stunning in the flesh!!

Thank you to Kelly for today, it was a great experience, I've learnt a HUGE amount, and thanks for reading.

Russ.


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## dubber (Oct 2, 2011)

Excellent I was waiting for this, the Gti will look awesome I am sure when done. Nice m3 too


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## -Kev- (Oct 30, 2007)

that be Kellys M3 
looks great Russ, would love to do this kind of thing myself


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## bigslippy (Sep 19, 2010)

Really is taking correction to another level , result was impressive Russ :doublesho and looking forward to the full write up.:thumb:

Thanks for taking time to show what you have done today considering you had a very early start:thumb:

Is that your car ?


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## AaronGTi (Nov 2, 2010)

Awesome mate. Really upping your game now :thumb:


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## MidlandsCarCare (Feb 18, 2006)

bigslippy said:


> Really is taking correction to another level , result was impressive Russ :doublesho and looking forward to the full write up.:thumb:
> 
> Thanks for taking time to show what you have done today considering you had a very early start:thumb:
> 
> Is that your car ?


It's quite difficult to capture on my camera, but Kelly has some much clearer pics (I really need to learn how to use mine in manual mode  ), but the results were very impressive, but it certainly does take some time to achieve!

Yep, the Golf is mine... I was very nervous about doing it, but I feel comfortable now tbh, really looking forward to it in fact! :buffer:

It's been a long day, tiredness has just hit me - we didn't finish until 20:30!!

Thanks all.

Russ.


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## Ashtra (Oct 17, 2007)

i want them wheels for my car mate do you you think u could put them in the back of the golf when kelly ent looking??


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## DuncanMon (May 25, 2009)

As impressive as a fully corrected paint finish can look it really is nowhere near as impressive as one with no orange peel. It really just doesn't come close. The only step further is a orange peelless custom paint and even then I don't feel the jump is as big as just moving from a perfectly machined factory finish to an orange peel free factory finish. 

Would be something I would love to learn to do. 

This has the makings of a brilliant informative and stunning thread. Thanks for posting, look forward to the rest to come over the next few days. 

And finally, that M3 made me make a strange noise when I saw it, I just absolutely love that colour. Up there with Renault Liquid Gold but that BMW blue is rare.


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## MidlandsCarCare (Feb 18, 2006)

Ashtra said:


> i want them wheels for my car mate do you you think u could put them in the back of the golf when kelly ent looking??


I'll see what I can do Ash! :lol:


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## Ashtra (Oct 17, 2007)

haha awesome mate. good luck for 2morow hope u enjoy


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## R9SH G (Mar 14, 2011)

That is Serious work!:doublesho:thumb:


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## MidlandsCarCare (Feb 18, 2006)

DuncanMon said:


> As impressive as a fully corrected paint finish can look it really is nowhere near as impressive as one with no orange peel. It really just doesn't come close. The only step further is a orange peelless custom paint and even then I don't feel the jump is as big as just moving from a perfectly machined factory finish to an orange peel free factory finish.
> 
> Would be something I would love to learn to do.
> 
> ...


Thank you, I hope it's informative and helpful to some. I have a LOT of pictures, but I'm on a 3G Dongle, and it's dire (one bar of signal), so I'll do a full write up on the session, when I get back home to blissful 50MB Virgin.

I think Kelly's threads do a superb job of showing the difference that can be achieved, and I totally agree with you that the difference is vast, especially on some newer German cars particularly BMW's! Unfortunately, done properly, I'd imagine it'd take the best part of a week to do a car fully, for a single person, which is a monster effort. I think it'll be useful for me personally as I see a few customers who have had a poor respray, so hopefully can offer support getting the best out of any affected panels.

The removal rate of Megs MF system vs. Rotary and Wool was the biggest eye opener of the day for me...

Russ.


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## Strothow (Oct 29, 2009)

Nice work Russ, would love that opportunity! :thumb:


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## MidlandsCarCare (Feb 18, 2006)

Also, if anyone is interested, if you add my Page to Facebook, you can get 'live updates' over the next couple of days 

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Midlands-Car-Care/273514062686622

Russ.


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## The_Bouncer (Nov 24, 2010)

Great tuition

Great teacher

Great results

Great opportunity

:thumb:

Good luck Russ :wave:


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## alan_mcc (Oct 28, 2008)

Can't beat a bit of team detailing. Hope you enjoy wet sanding your golf.
:thumb:


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## North east Car Care (Jan 14, 2008)

Onward and upward Russ


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## Mirror Finish Details (Aug 21, 2008)

Look forward to the Golf.


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## Jakub555 (Aug 17, 2011)

well
well
well
very well Russ as always mate
looking forward to see the result on your golf

cheers


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## MidlandsCarCare (Feb 18, 2006)

Thanks all! 

Golf starts at 9!!!


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## MidlandsCarCare (Feb 18, 2006)

Also, if there's anything in particular that you want to see or know then ask in here and I'll see if we can cover it with pics and videos. 

Russ.


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## The Cueball (Feb 8, 2007)

always takes some balls to wet sand a car.... very luck to be learning from the master kind you... I'm sure you know how lucky you are! :lol: 

:thumb:


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## AaronGTi (Nov 2, 2010)

RussZS said:


> Thanks all!
> 
> Golf starts at 9!!!


Keep us updated on FB mate, I plan to relax in work all day so need something to do


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## PaulN (Jan 17, 2008)

Looks great :thumb:

So your the reason Kelly wont be on here much for a few days then!!!!! 

Be interested to read about the pros and cons between hand v machine wet sanding. :thumb:


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## DetailMyCar (Apr 19, 2010)

RussZS said:


> *The removal rate of Megs MF system vs. Rotary and Wool was the biggest eye opener of the day for me... *
> Russ.


I want to know more on this!! 

How did you find it?? I love using a wool pad after sanding, it's almost instant but would be good to hear how you found the MF system as I've heard people have quite a lot of problems with the pads clogging?


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## mejinks (Nov 22, 2009)

Definately interested in this.


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## pee (Apr 6, 2009)

Loving the work i shall be looking forward to seeing more pics especially of your golf.


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## chillly (Jun 25, 2009)

Thanks for the thread russ very enjoyable. Will look forward to the updates on this:thumb: Still looking for that pic of your golf with the pressed metal plates on


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## MidlandsCarCare (Feb 18, 2006)

Cheers Chilly. Plates will go on over the weekend hopefully


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## chillly (Jun 25, 2009)

Russ if you have time and remember mate paint readings before and after wetsanding your Golf would be very helpful please :thumb:


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## ads2k (Jul 12, 2006)

Impressive stuff Russ :thumb:

Look forward to a complete write-up when finished.


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## MidlandsCarCare (Feb 18, 2006)

Cheers Ad

Chilly it's worryingly low about 110 ov average...


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## Racer (Oct 27, 2005)

Very Nice Russ :thumb:


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## Alan W (May 11, 2006)

RussZS said:


> Cheers Ad
> 
> Chilly it's worryingly low about 110 ov average...


Similar to my R32 then Russ and definitely on the low side. 

You couldn't be in better hands though to learn wet sanding skills and I look forward to your write-up! :thumb:

Alan W


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## shuggett (Oct 27, 2010)

Russ,
I attended Kelly's wet sanding course in July, fantastic day.
I'm talking to Kelly about a one to one course to get more confidence to wet sand a whole car. I have a 2008 caddy van that I want to practice/learn on.
Good luck with the golf, I know Kelly will make sure it looks fantastic.
Steve


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## MidlandsCarCare (Feb 18, 2006)

Thanks Steve

I was at that course too - it was a great day!!

Few pics of the first panel - there are much better ones on Kelly's SLR, these are taken on my cheaper Sony. Note of course, this is 1500x2, 2000, 3000 then S17+ via Wool on Rotary, then 3M Yellow... no protection at this stage


DSC01869 by RussZS, on Flickr


DSC01930 by RussZS, on Flickr

Russ.


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## Alan W (May 11, 2006)

Looking great Russ, and even better in the flesh I'm sure! 

Alan W


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## Prism Detailing (Jun 8, 2006)

Good work and definately a fantastic oppertunity from what some refer to the master of wet sanding


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## MidlandsCarCare (Feb 18, 2006)

Alan W said:


> Looking great Russ, and even better in the flesh I'm sure!
> 
> Alan W


Alan

I'm blown away by this, I really away. It has a superb liquidy shimmer which has always escaped me on my own car. We're only seeing 6 or so microns removed too... so still over 100.

Russ.


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## Alan W (May 11, 2006)

RussZS said:


> Alan
> 
> I'm blown away by this, I really away. *It has a superb liquidy shimmer* which has always escaped me on my own car. We're only seeing 6 or so microns removed too... so still over 100.
> 
> Russ.


Deep enough to dive into? :lol:

Take your time, one panel at a time, and get each one as good as, or better, than the first one! 

Alan W


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## Trip tdi (Sep 3, 2008)

That is a liquid shimmer to the paint, surprising what wetsanding can do.

Nice post russ


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## Brummie_Nige (Sep 5, 2011)

That's the sort of liquid gloss finish I want on my BMW :argie:! Now where's my wet and dry...........................................................


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## Alzak (Aug 31, 2010)

nice job Russ ! Looking forward to see some write up when You back home .


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## Edstrung (Apr 6, 2009)

Awesome Russ  I take it you wanted a little more personal tuition to move on from the Dodo Day?

I still haven't fully wetted my Bora yet, but it is certainly on the list. Kelly opened eyes up to what is capable and what is possible.

Learning from the best, it will pay dividends for your work


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## deanchilds (Dec 11, 2007)

It's something I'd love to learn too, how long is the training for and costs involved?


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## MidlandsCarCare (Feb 18, 2006)

It's £450-£500 per day (£50 per hour) but he has a list of different modules, but is also flexible in terms of specific training requirements


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## james_death (Aug 9, 2010)

Fantastic stuff...:thumb:


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## Edstrung (Apr 6, 2009)

RussZS said:


> It's £450-£500 per day (£50 per hour) but he has a list of different modules, but is also flexible in terms of specific training requirements


I would normally shudder at the thought, but just from the group day with Dodo Juice, you can see Kelly is the Mr Miyagi of wet sanding. Worth every damn penny of it :thumb:


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## MidlandsCarCare (Feb 18, 2006)

Well you pay mechanics more to put some oil into your car, so the way I see it, it's a bloody bargain.

I've never seen anything like the finish developing on my car, and a VERY short space of time compared to some of the details I've seen. This is next level. Swirl/RDS removal is one thing, but nothing will compare to this for the best possible finish.

Russ.


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## bigslippy (Sep 19, 2010)

RussZS said:


> Well you pay mechanics more to put some oil into your car, so the way I see it, it's a bloody bargain.
> 
> I've never seen anything like the finish developing on my car, and a VERY short space of time compared to some of the details I've seen. This is next level. Swirl/RDS removal is one thing, but nothing will compare to this for the best possible finish.
> 
> Russ.


That's a good way of puttin it Russ , some garages charge a fortune , Audi wanted £48 to change 3 rear bulbs on my car:doublesho. its hardly rocket science ... so the cost for learning this is well justified:thumb:

Looking forward to reading the rest of your progress Russ:thumb:


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## MidlandsCarCare (Feb 18, 2006)

Thanks Neil 

Here's the OS wing now, which was the first panel I wet sanded myself 


DSC01947 by RussZS, on Flickr

I put a couple of deeper scorelines in with a dirt particle and the edge of the paper, but for my first 'live' panel, given the curves etc, I was very pleased indeed.

We have some pics with a PDR light, so that you can see the true difference, but I best get back to it, and will upload those later! 

It's certainly not easy though, but I'm getting there...

Russ.


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## chrisc (Jun 15, 2008)

RussZS said:


> It's £450-£500 per day (£50 per hour) but he has a list of different modules, but is also flexible in terms of specific training requirements


You pay for what you get and still cheaper than the other big name by alot:thumb:.


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## adlem (Jul 6, 2008)

Thanks for posting Russ, you lucky lucky boy!

That is a very reasonable charge from Kelly for the wealth of knowledge and confidence you can gain imo!

I just need to find the 'kahones' to tackle mine once it's been painted because as you say, nothing else compares to a wet-sanded panel


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## stealthwolf (Sep 24, 2008)

Amazing results. I just want to lick that panel!

Remind me russ, was your car just standard black or diamond pearl?


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## MidlandsCarCare (Feb 18, 2006)

Diamond Pearl I assume - it's the metallic colour 

It's never looked this deep, it always looked a bit 'milky' to me.


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## SimonBash (Jun 7, 2010)

Trust you are C1'ing it after Russ?


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## stealthwolf (Sep 24, 2008)

I thought it DBP too but it just looked too deep for me to be sure!


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## MidlandsCarCare (Feb 18, 2006)

SimonBash said:


> Trust you are C1'ing it after Russ?


Probably not matey, as we probably won't have enough time - still a fair bit to do, and would rather add the LSP myself when I have more time. 3-4 hours is needed for C1 done properly, so just a wax for now - whatever Kelly has.


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## Trip tdi (Sep 3, 2008)

Stick some of your crystal rock on that, that will do the job just fine...


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## MidlandsCarCare (Feb 18, 2006)

Yeah I may do when I get home Trip, or possibly some Desire, but I'm keen to try Opti Coat too... not sure what I'll use yet!

Russ.


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## stealthwolf (Sep 24, 2008)

Split the bonnet up and try a few LSPs?


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## Trip tdi (Sep 3, 2008)

Russ, so after wet sanding and correcting the paint, the paint does not look milky any more, does it have a more of a darker black finish to it, can you still see the metallic flecks in the paint, sorry for the silly question.


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## Trip tdi (Sep 3, 2008)

Russ this Desire, people are going mad on here about this wax, how does it compare to likes of crystal rock, is this wax on a different level, finish wise.


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## MidlandsCarCare (Feb 18, 2006)

Trip tdi said:


> Russ, so after wet sanding and correcting the paint, the paint does not look milky any more, does it have a more of a darker black finish to it, can you still see the metallic flecks in the paint, sorry for the silly question.


I'm not sure on the 'science' behind why the 'milky look' has gone away, but it has new found depth, glossiness and shimmer than ever before. This proves, more than even machine polishing, that it really is all in the prep.

I wish every car I do I could turn out like this, but it would take the best part of a week. At least now I know I can always do my own cars to this standard, and a select few for other people. I already have a Lupo GTI which has had a bad respray, which I will be working on over Xmas (NS rear quarter only), but I'm confident I can do something with that too.


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## MidlandsCarCare (Feb 18, 2006)

Trip tdi said:


> Russ this Desire, people are going mad on here about this wax, how does it compare to likes of crystal rock, is this wax on a different level, finish wise.


I've not used it enough, nor seen it on my own car, so can't comment on that comparison directly in a fair way. However I would say it's one of the best waxes I've used, and the water behaviour is spectacular so its very special IMO  Crystal Rock is too, but it's £800 so you'd expect it to be really.


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## RedUntilDead (Feb 10, 2009)

Brummie_Nige said:


> That's the sort of liquid gloss finish I want on my BMW :argie:! Now where's my wet and dry...........................................................


Nige, I know where your coming from as I have a saphire black e92. Like the op`s car my paint depth just tips 100 Only removing 6um, thats amazing!
I read somewhere that trying to sand the look of orange peel on new bm`s is pointless as it exists in all the levels of paint not just the clear. Would love some one to clarify this.


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## sicko (Jun 20, 2009)

Opti-Coat FTW ) You won't be dissapointed! And great work there, i wish i could afford few days with KDS too


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## Mr Singh (Apr 4, 2006)

My kind of thread! Finish on your Golf looks great after that session.

Once you own a car thats been fully removed of OP its hard to live with 'factory' finish again!


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## MidlandsCarCare (Feb 18, 2006)

RedUntilDead said:


> Nige, I know where your coming from as I have a saphire black e92. Like the op`s car my paint depth just tips 100 Only removing 6um, thats amazing!
> I read somewhere that trying to sand the look of orange peel on new bm`s is pointless as it exists in all the levels of paint not just the clear. Would love some one to clarify this.


I have seen some of the 100's of cars Kelly has done, one of which include a Sapp Black E92 M3, and it's simply breathtaking afterwards. It's almost certainly all in the clearcoat and can be removed by wet sanding. I've lost around 5-6 microns from my paint, but what we must remember is that we are only flatting the paint (to the lowest point of the orange peel) and rarely below that, so the risk to your clearcoat is minimal.

Russ.


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## CleanYourCar (Jan 23, 2006)

Excellent Russ, just spotted this.

That looks like some serious training going on there. Opti coat is a no brainer on such well prepped paint. Looking forward to seeing the finished write up. :buffer:


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## MidlandsCarCare (Feb 18, 2006)

CleanYourCar said:


> Excellent Russ, just spotted this.
> 
> That looks like some serious training going on there. Opti coat is a no brainer on such well prepped paint. Looking forward to seeing the finished write up. :buffer:


Cheers Tim! 

I hope you've got lots of Megs Paper in stock!


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## -Raven- (Aug 26, 2010)

Man, we need a 'how to' sticky on this!
Well done Russ and Kelly! Looking forward to the full completed post!


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## MidlandsCarCare (Feb 18, 2006)

Day 2 is here...

http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=244271

Russ.


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