# recommend me a suitable polish for single stage paint



## euge07 (Jan 15, 2011)

Can anyone advise on a nice oily polish for machining old single stage paint that is over 20-30year old? For swirl removal and bringing the colour back up,


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## stangalang (Nov 27, 2009)

Meguiars #7 is of course ideal, lime prime works very well as its oily and does have an abrasive. But multiple coats of #7 by hand prior to any abrasive work is the absolute best way


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## euge07 (Jan 15, 2011)

stangalang said:


> Meguiars #7 is of course ideal, lime prime works very well as its oily and does have an abrasive. But multiple coats of #7 by hand prior to any abrasive work is the absolute best way


I am looking to machine the paint but I will look it up thanks


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## AndyN01 (Feb 16, 2016)

I've never machine polished an old, single stage paint so I have no personal experience.

BUT......

Post #6 from Steampunk in this thread might help:

https://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=413847

I guess there's many others?

Hope that's useful.

Good luck.

Andy.


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## stangalang (Nov 27, 2009)

euge07 said:


> I am looking to machine the paint but I will look it up thanks


If you start with megs #7 prior to any abrasive work, you will achieve 2 things,

1) less polishing will be required, thus less paint will be removed,

2) any polishing you do will be much much nicer to perform

Its an old skool solution to an old skool problem with an old skool product


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## big dave 666 (Aug 2, 2014)

As above....there's a post on here by Mike Phillips re megs #7 and single stage paint. Well worth a look.....it's the correct way of doing thing IMO.


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## Steampunk (Aug 11, 2011)

I agree with Stangalang on a lot of detailing issues, but on the issue of single stage paints, I respectfully disagree with both his, and Mike Phillip's stance that Meg's #7 or similar products are the best way of tackling single stage...

I cut my teeth on, and have owned a car with factory original Acrylic-Enamel paint dating to 1977 (My MGB) for many years, and have worked on a great deal of original single stage paints which have dated back to the 60's. I have personally witnessed the effects that products such as Meguiar's #7 present to such finishes, and whilst they do feel like the solution temporarily when you encounter a faded SS car, in the long-term I have seen quite negative side effects from this popularly promoted practice... This is only something you know, if you own the car you are detailing, and can witness its finish in the long-term.

Firstly, single stage paints come in many chemistries... Modern Acrylic Urethane Single Stage paints, which have been used since the 80's in some cases, offer similar chemical resistance and polishing characteristics as today's clearcoat paints... Only, the pigment is mixed in with the clear topcoat resin. Then, dating further back, you have Polyurethane Enamels (These mostly seen in low-quality repaints during the 80's and 90's, which are ISO catalyzed enamels.), baked acrylic enamels (Used as the topcoats on many British cars from 1965 up through the 80's, and on high quality vehicles like Mercedes and Porsche even further back.), alkyd coach enamels (Often brushed-on finishes for commercial vehicles), acrylic lacquers (What these days is most typical out of an aerosol can.), nitrocellulose lacquers (The oldest sort of SS finish for cars, dating back to the beginning of the 20th century, and what was still popular in the UK and the US for a lot of DIY restorers until recently, due to its ease of application.), and then industrial Polyurethane paints (Like DuPont Imron; found on commercial vehicles and airplanes since the 70's & 80's if not before... Polyurethane paints were first developed during WWII.)... _ALL_ behave differently when polished. So 'Single Stage' is a catch-all for a wide variety of direct-gloss, pigmented topcoats, which all respond differently to the solvents, slow-drying oils, and abrasives found in polishes. All of them also respond differently to UV radiation, and oxidation, depending upon the anti-oxidant/UV inhibitor tech of the era, so have different failure modes of fading...

Before you work on a single stage paint, or any paint, you must understand its material chemistry. There is no 'One Size Fits All', 'Old-Skool for Old-Skool', use 'X-Product' solution... Let's bust a few myths here...

Firstly, paint of any chemistry is never 'Hungry'... It doesn't need to be 'Fed'... It isn't like skin, or analine leather... Oxidation isn't the result of oil-loss, and dryness... It's a result of a molecular breakdown and conversion of the matrix of the material itself from one form, into another. However, the myth that paint needs to be 'fed' with oil persists, even today... This effected layer will never be the same again once broken down, and converted into oxidation... That 'dead' layer needs to be 'exfoliated', and removed, to reveal a fresh, 'healthy' layer of material underneath, unaffected by the conversion... Depending upon the chemistry of the paint itself, some oxidation processes simply extend deeper than others. _You have to cut away the dead layer, and find good paint, providing there is sufficient thickness of material to work with._ If you don't have enough material thickness to abrasively polish away an oxide layer before losing hiding, the paint is sadly beyond saving. 

Now, let's address why products like Meguiar's Mirror Glaze #7 Show Car Glaze have been used as miracle cures on SS paints... Meg's #7, and other products like Dodo-Juice Lime Prime, are made up of solvents, slow drying oils, and crushed, kaolin clay abrasives that can also act as semi-durable fillers... The converted oxidized layer of paint is highly porous, and so is the inherent structure of some older paint types... Thus, the oils and solvents penetrate, swell, and permeate that layer, which give the illusion of gloss. In extreme cases, one can even saturate a heavily oxidized layer so much, that one can fool someone into thinking that irreparably UV damaged material is in fact good paint, which is an old car flipper trick... This also masks the 'sticky paint' issue that one encounters when trying to machine polish any porous, absorbent finish, by saturating it with oils, until it can absorb no more from subsequent products. Thus, making polishing easier. At some point, those slow-drying oils will evaporate, and reveal what has really happened, however... What you can see then, is a 'return' of oxidation that may not have actually been fully removed, and also of chemical staining or hazing in some cases, as some of the older paint types are quite sensitive to the strong petroleum solvents found in polishing and glazing compounds. Marring can also sometimes become visible, once the swelling from the solvents dies back...

This is an example of what die-back on a classic, baked acrylic-enamel finish looks like... This is after just a simple polish with Menzerna (SF3500), following several weeks of die-back:










When freshly polished and wiped down with solvent to check for filling, though, this finish looked like this:










The process of change took some total of 3-weeks to appear in a hot climate... In a cooler one, or if the vehicle never leaves a climate controlled garage, it could take several months. As you can see, this is not the result of marring (No swirling or micro-marring is evident.), but of chemical staining.

Products like Meg's #7, and Dodo-Juice Lime Prime, feature solvents and oils far more heavily concentrated than most polishes like the Menzerna photographed above... It takes weeks or months to see the filling they have caused on newer oxidized paints, or the chemical damage they may have caused on older ones... Even solvent cleaning (If this is possible; some older paints are far too sensitive to use even products like the latest version of CarPro Eraser on them, without immediate reaction.) cannot immediately cleanse the oils that have been absorbed into the porous structure of an oxidized, or inherently semi-porous layer of paint.

The _only_ long-term, 'what you see is what you get' solution to oxidized single stage paints, is to polish or sand back abrasively until reaching unaffected paint, with only as much petroleum solvent as the paint can stand (Acrylic-Urethane, and Polyurethane Single-Stage paints can be treated with no more care than modern clearcoat paints... Older ones often require more care; sometimes I find it most prudent in the long-term to use slurry-polishing techniques during the finishing stage at least, to reduce the petroleum quotient of the liquid polish film on the paint's surface. Primarily on Pre 80's paints - both enamel and lacquer - that can be solvent-sensitive.)... Otherwise, one risks solvent die-back and or chemical damage...

I have seen solvent die-back, and or chemical damage from glazes like Meg's #7, and even standard AlOx abrasive polishes and compounds occur on older SS finishes _repeatedly_... If you're okay with constantly filling or masking (Prevalent when trying to treat oxidized layers with glazes, irrespective of the paint type.), or potentially chemically damaging your paint (If it is very old, and sensitive.), then by all means feel free to use Meg's #7 or similar... However, when doing so, you can be creating a new problem, and or hiding an old one, which will only come back to haunt you. The only way you can trust that you have actually improved the finish, is if you know you are not filling, or swelling the paint layer.

So, please... If you have an oxidized, and swirled Single Stage paint film on a vehicle you are detailing... Just try to treat it like a 'sticky', potentially solvent sensitive finish... If it's a urethane paint technology, it'll handle modern solvents (Both in polishes, and in panel wipes.) with no more issue than modern clearcoat, and have less risk of die-back providing the oxide layer is removed... If it's an acrylic, alkyd, or nitrocellulose enamel, or lacquer technology, then try to make your polishing/cleaning solution, as water-based, and closest to neutral pH as possible... It's the only way to guarantee that your detailing won't come back to bite you, or your customer. All you need to do, is remove the oxidized/damaged layer of paint.

I own a vehicle with 40+ year old paint... I know the effects of the various detailing processes I have done to it in the long-term... I have caused damage to this car, with both solvent and alkaline materials. I have learned through experience, and a study of material science, in an attempt to understand what I have encountered... As the custodian of a classic vehicle that I hope will outlive me, I urge the detailing community to avoid using Meg's #7 and similar products as the be-all, end-all solution to any non-clearcoated paints, and to learn about these materials instead... How they respond to different solvents and chemicals, the nature of the environmental damage they have experienced over the decades, and how to treat them sensitively. If using repeated applications of oily glazes for their masking effect is what you wish to do, then do so... However, observe the finish afterwards for some months out in the sun, and take caution.

Classic, and single stage paints can be wonderful, and rewarding to detail... You just need to treat them with understanding.










[M205, slurry polishing technique, no LSP at time of photo.]

To answer the OP as to what specific polish to use... You won't know for 100% certain until you try it, and see the long-term effect. Some of the Scholl polishes like S3 Gold XXL, and S20 Blue, and S40 have enough oils to compensate for the porosity of oxidized finishes without 'sticking', though can sometimes die-back on older paint types... Some of the Meg's non-diminishing polishes like M105 & M205, can be diluted with water to form a slurry, and used safely on very solvent sensitive finishes that are behaving 'sticky', without die-back... Sanding is a reliable way to remove deeply oxidized/damaged paint layers, without incurring chemical damage, or risking masking... Use these tools wisely, and you will get a finish that looks and behaves better than new.

Hopefully this helps...

- Steampunk


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## suds (Apr 27, 2012)

So Euge, what type of paint, how bad is the oxidation, is the car a keeper for the next generation, what's the car's value (£/emotional). Pics would also help...

Just to perhaps confuse things - my first attempt at detailing was on a milky white Volvo estate from the 90s (You only knew it was originally red in colour because some of the milky parts were tinged pink). Having no idea, I just hand polished the body work using old formula AG SRP for three and a half days before wiping down with AG cleanser before finishing with HD wax. The car looked magnificent for 12 months before the oxidation started returning on the roof. The bonnet lasted longer, presumably because polishing was easier on the bonnet than doing the roof on tiptoe (I know I should have stood on a crate or something, but some of us learn things through trial and error).


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## suds (Apr 27, 2012)

And...? Drum roll... Silence


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## euge07 (Jan 15, 2011)

thanks for all the suggestions and info guys- Turns out after I got to see the car in person it has been repainted and is clearcoated so won't need to worry about single stage paint this time


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## Wash monster (May 25, 2016)

Bit of a thread revival but, I have a mondeo st 2005 how do I know if it’s single stage or not ? I’ve searched online but no answers. I’ve used some menzerna 2500 on a spot pad to remove a scratch on front bumper and the pad was blue - this tells me it’s probably single stage but just need some clarification.

If it is single stage what’s the best product to use for wash marring and swirls ? I also need to do some touch ups and wet sand the areas which I’ve never done before.

Tia


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## Rappy (Oct 2, 2020)

Sounds like you have gone through the clear coat to me. I'm not sure Ford has used single stage paint past the 90's


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## Wash monster (May 25, 2016)

Rappy said:


> Sounds like you have gone through the clear coat to me. I'm not sure Ford has used single stage paint past the 90's


It doesn't look like strike through tho and it's still shiny the paint hasn't gone dull this is why I'm a bit confused and would say it's ssp


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## Rappy (Oct 2, 2020)

I remember working on a S2000 all original paint :lol:

The car should have been single stage paint.

Only two panels had orginal paint.

It had seen crash damage more than once and been repainted with clearcoat on top :wall:

The rear quarter was over 1000 microns & cracking vs the other panels 120-140.

Looked a lot better once corrected & wet sanded.


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## Rappy (Oct 2, 2020)

Wash monster said:


> It doesn't look like strike through tho and it's still shiny the paint hasn't gone dull this is why I'm a bit confused and would say it's ssp


Mmmmm very strange. Maybe a repaint with SSP on the front bumper?

The easiest way to check SSP as follows...

Get a clean cloth ideally white on a clean car & rub the paint. (No compound required)

If it's SSP you will get paint transfer. If not it's clear coated.

Hth's

Rappy :thumb:


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## Rappy (Oct 2, 2020)

I worked on a 2005 Fiesta ST I think that would be the same colour & that was clearcoated.

I think it was called Performance Blue.


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## Wash monster (May 25, 2016)

Rappy said:


> I worked on a 2005 Fiesta ST I think that would be the same colour & that was clearcoated.
> 
> I think it was called Performance Blue.


Yeah mines performance blue paint code h2 which should be performance blue 2002


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## Wash monster (May 25, 2016)

Rappy said:


> Mmmmm very strange. Maybe a repaint with SSP on the front bumper?
> 
> The easiest way to check SSP as follows...
> 
> ...


Just a dry cloth ?


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## Rappy (Oct 2, 2020)

Wash monster said:


> Just a dry cloth ?


Yes & rub hard.


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## Rappy (Oct 2, 2020)

Ideally, wrap around 1 finger apply a bit of pressure & rub hard.


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## Wash monster (May 25, 2016)

Rappy said:


> Ideally, wrap around 1 finger apply a bit of pressure & rub hard.


I anit having that your pulling my ****er


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## Wash monster (May 25, 2016)

Also will it wreck my pads if it is ssp or will the colour wash out ?


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## Rappy (Oct 2, 2020)

Wash monster said:


> Also will it wreck my pads if it is ssp or will the colour wash out ?


It will stain your pads, but they will still be OK to use.

Just not look to good.

My yellow pads ended up pink after red transfer & had to go in the bin


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## Rappy (Oct 2, 2020)

Wash monster said:


> I anit having that your pulling my ****er


Not at all.

Get the cloth wrap around 1 finger apply a bit of pressure & rub hard. If it's SSP you will get paint transfer.


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## Wash monster (May 25, 2016)

Rappy said:


> Not at all.
> 
> Get the cloth wrap around 1 finger apply a bit of pressure & rub hard. If it's SSP you will get paint transfer.


Ok I believe you now just seen Mike Phillips do the same but with a bit of compound on the cloth

Cheers for your help

Now what compound should I use and pad combo


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## Rappy (Oct 2, 2020)

Wash monster said:


> Ok I believe you now just seen Mike Phillips do the same


:lol::lol:


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## Rappy (Oct 2, 2020)

Wash monster said:


> Ok I believe you now just seen Mike Phillips do the same but with a bit of compound on the cloth
> 
> Cheers for your help
> 
> Now what compound should I use and pad combo


Agree 100% with Mike :thumb:

The reason I said no compound, is you could cut throught the clear if it's thin. My friend did this on four panels :wall:


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## Wash monster (May 25, 2016)

Ok so I’ve just tried this on a dense micro fibre and some menzerna 400 heavy cut and there’s no colour transfer. I tried this on the bonnet a wing and front bumper. This is even more confusing now as I had paint transfer on the da on the front bumper but no signs of strike through


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## Rappy (Oct 2, 2020)

Wash monster said:


> Ok so I've just tried this on a dense micro fibre and some menzerna 400 heavy cut and there's no colour transfer. I tried this on the bonnet a wing and front bumper. This is even more confusing now as I had paint transfer on the da on the front bumper but no signs of strike through


Not SSP. 100% clear coat :thumb:

How long have you had the car?

Maybe previous owner used colour magic to hide scratches & swirls.

That is the only thing I can think of


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## suds (Apr 27, 2012)

Maybe front/rear bumpers are the the most likely body parts to be repainted (and done on the cheap as a touch up)


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## Wash monster (May 25, 2016)

Rappy said:


> Not SSP. 100% clear coat :thumb:
> 
> How long have you had the car?
> 
> ...


I've only had it 3 months two owners from new. It has had paint one drivers side.


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## Wash monster (May 25, 2016)

When it warms up a bit I’ll get the da out it’s going to be a fast road ‘ track car but also want it to look very tidy


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