# Rejecting a secondhand car



## billybadger (Jul 30, 2012)

Hi guys,

Have already had a lot of legal advice but not actually spoken to someone who's been in the same situation. I bought my (pregnant) wife her first car three weeks ago, an 04 plate Nissan Micra 1.4, from a secondhand dealer. The advert stated that it had FSH. Took it for a drive, all went well, but didn't check the paperwork or that the reversing sensors worked. I know - I was rushing when I shouldn't have been. I bought it and drove it home.

The first time that the wife took the car out, it made it 100m down the road, then the engine simply cut out. Fortunately no-one was behind her. When she tried to restart it, the engine warning light came on and she was barely able to nurse the car back home. After phoning me, she phoned the garage and left a message for the manager. He never called back.

I took the car out later that day - the engine warning light remained on, but the car seemed to run OK. I discovered that the parking sensors didn't work, and that there was no service history, full or otherwise - just some receipts for tyres and the last two MOTs.

I wrote a letter to the manager (sent recorded) explaining the difficulties we had encountered. As I had heard nothing, I called him today. He said he would repair the car, or we could choose another car from his stock, but he would not give me my money back. I said about going to court if we couldn't resolve it - he didn't seem too bothered.

After getting advice, it would seem he's in breach of the Sales of Good Act on two counts:
1. Goods must be of satisfactory quality
2. Goods must be as described.

So therefore I am within my rights to reject the car, but really don't want to go to court. Unfortunately their garage is on the other side of London, meaning I would waste a large amount of time taking it over for them to fix (with no guarantee it would be done right), and they have no other cars in stock that would be suitable. My wife does not want to drive the car any more. So do I try and play hardball, and give him in writing 7 days to produce the FSH, then reject the car?

Sorry for long post but have never been in this situation before and would very much appreciate some advice.

BB


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## SteveTDCi (Feb 8, 2006)

Have you spoken to trading standards ? I would start by writting to him explaining why you are rejecting the vehicle. Have you got a copy of the original advert to prove it is not as described ? Was any warranty given or implied ? If it was a trade sale on a sold as seen basis I would say you would be on difficult ground, if it has a warranty then you should be ok. So check the small print

I would say that it won't be easy and court could prove a problem if you don't want the stress, even more so with a baby on the way. You could cut your losses and flog it on eBay or try a local garage and see if they can find anything obvious, keep the receipts and then try and recover the costs if possible.


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## billybadger (Jul 30, 2012)

SteveTDCi said:


> Have you spoken to trading standards ? I would start by writting to him explaining why you are rejecting the vehicle. Have you got a copy of the original advert to prove it is not as described ? Was any warranty given or implied ? If it was a trade sale on a sold as seen basis I would say you would be on difficult ground, if it has a warranty then you should be ok. So check the small print
> 
> I would say that it won't be easy and court could prove a problem if you don't want the stress, even more so with a baby on the way. You could cut your losses and flog it on eBay or try a local garage and see if they can find anything obvious, keep the receipts and then try and recover the costs if possible.


Thanks for your reply. I have spoken to Trading Standards and reported him for misleading advertising. I have already written once to reject the vehicle, enclosing a copy of the advert, but he claims not to have received it despite the fact I sent it Special Delivery. No warranty, but also not a 'sold as seen' basis. I also got some legal advice, and they seemed to be saying that advertising it with FSH when in fact it has none is a much stronger basis for court (as I can prove it) rather than that it's unfit for purpose. Which is why I thought my next point of action would be to write to him asking for the FSH, then take it from there.

Your point about the stress is spot on, as already I can see this turning into a nightmare. If I do decide to accept his offer of repairing the car, can I take it to a local garage (rather than schlepp over to the other side of London) and forward the bills to him?


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## J1ODY A (Nov 28, 2008)

Friend was in similar boat and she had to give garage 2 attempts to fix before being able to take it to be repaired elsewhere then claim cost back... But she didnt have issue of being misold, it just broke as soon as she got it home.

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## kings.. (Aug 28, 2007)

Im a car dealer.. and under the sales of goods act you have to give a 3month or 3000 mile warranty...this is unless the receipt of sale states the car is sold with known faults. Even selling a car privately these days can be a tricky one especially when you read the eu directive correlating to the sale of goods.. the buyer has loads of rights but the seller should be allowed to offer a resolution. If the seller does make every effort to help and its not fixed they may offer to buy the car back off you.


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## SteveTDCi (Feb 8, 2006)

I would say if you don't want the car push for it as being miss-sold, the reason you purchased that car is because history was important (they don't need to know if that is true or not) you could also argue without the history the car is worth less money. 

I would resend your original letter by recorded delivery,outlining that you wish to return the car as it is not as described. Also state that because it has broken down already and that you need something reliable you have lost confidence in it. Say that if they wish to repair the car then they need to collect the car from you and return it back. Should they want you to deliver the car to them then you will be claiming for out of pocket expenses, taxi fare etc. keep the receipts for this. I would probably keep all mention of trading standards out of it, we get quoted it by customers and it gets your back up straight away, the friendlier you are the quicker things get resolved,but also throwing the toys out of the pram works as yo just want them to go away.

Just remember about the stress and hassal though, it's something you cannot put a value on.


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## billybadger (Jul 30, 2012)

Thanks everyone for your comments so far. The more I think about it, the more the lack of any service history bothers me. The only reason I went to look at that car over others was that the advert stated it had fsh; every car I've ever bought has always had history. So even if I wanted to sell it now it's immediately worth less without any. 

I'll call the guy tomorrow, and put it in writing, and let you know how I get on. 

BB


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## billybadger (Jul 30, 2012)

Meant to say that I'll give him a week to produce the service history. I know that he's trying to make living. If he can produce it then we can move on to getting it repaired.


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## m1pui (Jul 24, 2009)

If/when you get the service history, check up on the garage that's done the work, or even try calling the previous owner(s) and asking where they got it serviced.

It's very plausible that he could pick up a service book and fill it in and stamp it up himself or at the garage that does work for him.


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## billybadger (Jul 30, 2012)

Thanks for that - if he does manage to find something I'll be amazed given as how he virtually admitted to me on the phone yesterday that there wasn't any history!!!


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## Derbyshire-stig (Dec 22, 2010)

you could contact a dealer for that brand, they can give you a print out of all its history (some charge a few ££).


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## m1pui (Jul 24, 2009)

They'll only have record of when it's been serviced at a Nissan dealership though. At 8 years old there's a good chance it's fallen out of the manufacturers network some time ago. Equally, it might've been serviced for all of it's life at an independent garage but that won't be on the main dealer system. That's why I think trying the previous owner, if possible, maybe the most reliable bet.

If it had a full Nissan service history, I'd imagine the seller would've made sure he had that to show off.


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## LRBK (Jul 23, 2012)

Bear in mind that if you intend to reject the car, you must stop using it.


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## justina3 (Jan 11, 2008)

kings.. said:


> Im a car dealer.. and under the sales of goods act you have to give a 3month or 3000 mile warranty...this is unless the receipt of sale states the car is sold with known faults. Even selling a car privately these days can be a tricky one especially when you read the eu directive correlating to the sale of goods.. the buyer has loads of rights but the seller should be allowed to offer a resolution. If the seller does make every effort to help and its not fixed they may offer to buy the car back off you.


first i have heard of that one.


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## ChuckH (Nov 23, 2006)

Im sure there is something that says You have to give the garage as said above at least two chances to put things right,,

OK No service history is in place but have you tried a Nissan dealer to see if there is any service history on the computer records system that all dealers have ?..

Whilst I sympathise and wish You the best in getting it sorted part of the blame lies in not checking the paperwork.. Though You have admitted this its still part of the issue ..

Does said dealer have anything else in stock ??


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## dsolds (Feb 13, 2008)

OK, I've been there and done this twice so I'll give it to you straight from the hip, it's not an overly pleasant experience, neither is it cheap if you come across a fighter as I did.

The sale of goods act 1979 was further amended into the sale and supply of goods act 1994 and it does (on paper) give you black and white rights in law. However, as with all things, enforcing it can be costly unless you do it all yourself. Solicitors charge upwards of £150 an hour and you should bank on 2 or 3 hours at least, one to explain the circumstances, and a bit more to write a couple of letters. If required it then takes a while to produce the necessary court forms. Just bear that in mind. On a 20 grand car it's no biggie, but on a 8 year old Micra ???

So, best advice is to try and sort it out amicably. My staring point would be:
1. Fix all the faults apparent now.
2. Send the car for a fresh MOT, rectifying as needed.
3. Fully service the car now for free unless details of teh FSH can be produced and verified.
4. Give you a 1 year warranty, for example Warranty Direct etc.

Or.....a complete refund on the basis of the goods being rejected. If you insist on this then you MUST stop using the car now and ask the seller to collect it.

Chances are he will cave in and give you a car which is usable. But, if he doesn't you can use the S&SoG Act to good effect. Basically, goods must be "As Described", "Fit for purpose" and "Of satisfactory quality" plus a few more bits too. I strongly recommend you go to the parliament.uk site and get a copy of the transcript of the act. Read it thoroughly and decide exactly which clause (or clauses) make your case most strongly. Use this to form the basis of a well crafted letter to the seller and hope he caves in early.

Now, some more pragmatic advice. Trading Standards = utter waste of time in my experience. They were not remotely interested in either of my cases, yet I won both. This might vary by region but I somehow doubt this. They're just another government department who get paid regardless of results.

If you want the details of a decent solicitor (Nottingham based) then I will cheerfully pass on his details. Like I said above, not cheap, and probably not worth it on an 8 year old micra, that's your call.

Whatever you decide, I wish you the best of luck. :thumb:


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## billybadger (Jul 30, 2012)

Thanks everyone, particularly dsolds, for their input. I've swung back and forth about this for the past few days. After initially dismissing all the other cars he has in stock, I spotted an old, much cheaper Polo that he has for sale that would be sufficient for the wife at the moment. So I think my starting point will be to try and get the Polo plus a refund of the difference in price.

If he doesn't go for that, then I may follow your advice dsolds. If he won't go for that then I think it may be the small claims court (once I've sent him a few more letters to show how reasonable I am).

Hopefully we can come to an arrangement on the other car and I can forget all about this...

Forgot to say that the car has been sat on our drive, unused, for the past 2 weeks.


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## SteveTDCi (Feb 8, 2006)

Good luck, I still think your best chance is rejecting it because it is not as described, fit for purpose is a difficult one, yes it needs to work but you would also need to factor in its an 8 year old car. If you wanted to keep it then you would need to give them chance to fix it, if you do keep it then you should be compensated for the lack of service history financially. I had something similar with a mondeo, it being sold as a 1995 car, in fact it was a 94 car. I argued that it was worth less money, they agreed and after a few offers we settled on an amount. To be fair it wasn't that stresful. 

Good luck in whatever you decide


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## billybadger (Jul 30, 2012)

Just a quick update: Had a very positive conversation with the dealer this morning. He suggested that the Polo would be unsuitable as it had no power steering,so not an option. We eventually came to a compromise: he would take the car back and fix it, then once fixed we could have it back and he would put in writing that he would swap it for another vehicle when he gets a suitable one in.

This sounded like the least hassle solution, even though what I really want is my money back. So the Micra's gone off with my breakdown company - we'll see what happens! Thanks again for all the advice.

Unfortunately as one problem is (partially) resolved, another arises - the air con on my Qashqai is knackered. I took it in to have it regassed, but my mechanic has just pointed out all the flaws, including that my intercooler is damaged. As I only bought the car 2 months ago I've already been on to the 'dealer' I bought it from - he says that he'll get it fixed and provide us with a car in the meantime. I only hope he's as good as his word!!

After six hassle free years of driving a Seat, I'm not feeling the Nissan love at the moment...


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## J1ODY A (Nov 28, 2008)

Strange cos Nissans are normally well built... I had two with no issues.

Fingers crossed it gets sorted easily for you.

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## OvlovMike (Jul 19, 2011)

J1ODY A said:


> Strange cos Nissans are normally well built... I had two with no issues.
> 
> Fingers crossed it gets sorted easily for you.
> 
> Sent via tapadapawapaslappatalk


Tailgaters ruin cars, and Quishquosh drivers are the worst for it. End up with trashed condensers, intercoolers and radiators.


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## billybadger (Jul 30, 2012)

OvlovMike said:


> Tailgaters ruin cars, and Quishquosh drivers are the worst for it. End up with trashed condensers, intercoolers and radiators.


I think that's exactly what happened to mine - it's got a new radiator fitted but the condensor is broke and the intercooler looks a bit knacked. You live and learn...


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## J1ODY A (Nov 28, 2008)

OvlovMike said:


> Tailgaters ruin cars, and Quishquosh drivers are the worst for it. End up with trashed condensers, intercoolers and radiators.


Is that based on fact? :screwy:

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## OvlovMike (Jul 19, 2011)

J1ODY A said:


> Is that based on fact? :screwy:
> 
> Sent via tapadapawapaslappatalk


Always seems to be a Kumquat up my trumpet on the motorway nowadays...


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## SteveTDCi (Feb 8, 2006)

thats sounds like a reasonable compromise, worst case is you cut your loses once its running.


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## justina3 (Jan 11, 2008)

The skeptic in me thinks that’s open to abuse, if you tell him what sort of car your looking for what’s to stop him putting £300 on the screen price and ringing you “got you a car just up your street” same money as the one you bought.


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## billybadger (Jul 30, 2012)

justina3 said:


> The skeptic in me thinks that's open to abuse, if you tell him what sort of car your looking for what's to stop him putting £300 on the screen price and ringing you "got you a car just up your street" same money as the one you bought.


I know - tbh once the car's fixed I'll try and get him to service, MOT and a warranty off him so I've at least got something, then try and talk the wife into driving it again. Too much hassle otherwise...


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## alexj (Apr 12, 2012)

Why dont you just get a full refund


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## GJM (Jul 19, 2009)

kings.. said:


> under the sales of goods act you have to give a 3month or 3000 mile warranty


Is this somewhere in black and white and does it cover England and Scotland


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## justina3 (Jan 11, 2008)

GJM said:


> Is this somewhere in black and white and does it cover England and Scotland


I have never seen it but that could be as i come from wales :thumb:


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## justina3 (Jan 11, 2008)

GJM said:


> Is this somewhere in black and white and does it cover England and Scotland


I have never seen it but that could be as i come from wales :thumb:


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## SteveTDCi (Feb 8, 2006)

As far as i'm aware there is no legal right to a warranty, the seller can determine the length of a warranty if they want to. The sales of goods act outlines what to expect but as far as i'm aware nothing about warrantys


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## Bod42 (Jun 4, 2009)

I rejected my new MG ZR a few years back. It had a few faults and to me a repaired car is a second hand car so I requested a new one.

My Dad just happened to have a law book with various templates in so I copied one and sent it to MG and I got a brand new car in the end.

Warranty is irrelevant as the car was missold under the sales of goods act but I was under the impression that all car dealers have to provide a warranty.

I havent got the book I mentioned to hand but give me a while and I will try and find the letter.


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## GJM (Jul 19, 2009)

justina3 said:


> I have never seen it but that could be as i come from wales :thumb:


You know what I mean, bloody daft laws, all this Great Britain guff when the laws are all different.

As far as law goes, Wales is tagged with England is it not, for most if not all aspects


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## OvlovMike (Jul 19, 2011)

GJM said:


> You know what I mean, bloody daft laws, all this Great Britain guff when the laws are all different.
> 
> As far as law goes, Wales is tagged with England is it not, for most if not all aspects


Except for plastic ****.


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## bidderman1969 (Oct 20, 2006)

IIRC, as I had bother many years ago and some advice has stuck since then,.....

Dealers cannot sell goods to the public on a "trade sales" basis as the public are NOT trade, hence why it cannot/should not be used except when selling to the trade, they have to sell with a warranty of some sort, as someone mentioned earlier, 3 months is possibly the norm


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## SteveTDCi (Feb 8, 2006)

So when you buy from auction .... As far as I'm aware there is no warranty given unless stated. Vehicles sold on as a sold as seen basis are sold as that. A warranty can be whatever the seller decides ... I think.


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## justina3 (Jan 11, 2008)

SteveTDCi said:


> So when you buy from auction .... As far as I'm aware there is no warranty given unless stated. Vehicles sold on as a sold as seen basis are sold as that. A warranty can be whatever the seller decides ... I think.


correct but the vehicle still has to be fit for purpose, and thats where the can of worms opens its ugly head


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## dsolds (Feb 13, 2008)

justina3 said:


> correct but the vehicle still has to be fit for purpose, and thats where the can of worms opens its ugly head


Not quite. The rules around buying from auctions are very much "Caveat Emptor"


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## dew1911 (Jun 9, 2009)

dsolds said:


> The rules around buying from auctions are very much "Caveat Emptor"


I've got tablets for that somewhere


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## SteveTDCi (Feb 8, 2006)

Fit for purpose is a very grey area, but you could argue that you would expect some issues with an 8 year old car compared to a new car. A new car should be fault free, although we are going off topic slightly. This would certainly fall under being miss sold, well not as advertised.


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