# To all the Professional Detailers....



## Lucky123 (May 20, 2018)

Hello all!

I have a little problem and I wonder if I may ask some experts opinions please…

I have recently had my Jaguar E-Type (1972) professionally coated with Ceramic Pro Light by a local detailer. When it was finished it looked great, but after a day or so some lines started to appear on the bonnet. These lines were around the same distance from each other, around 2 inches apart and ran north / south. I say the bonnet, but there are lines elsewhere as well, but most noticeably on the bonnet.

The detailer couldn’t work out what the problem was, so machined all of the bonnet again and applied the Ceramic Pro Light. I did at the time point out that the lines were approximately the same width as the pad that he was using to apply the liquid.

Again, after a day or so, some lines have appeared again, although not in exactly the same place..

The detailer, after exhausting pretty much every other avenue with excuses is now blaming the paint on the Jaguar.

I couldn’t argue with that of course, but at the same time as this happening, the detailer was doing exactly the same job on our Escort RS Cosworth (1995) and yet again, after a day or so I am starting to see lines…. although these seem to be a lot more random.

Can anyone please help and tell me what the problem could be please – I just can’t see blaming the paint on both cars, one 1972 and one 1995, the correct answer. Both cars looked great after the DA and before the application of Ceramic Pro Light was applied – in fact, they looked much better than I expected.

As a point of interest, on both cars, the detailer did not wash the cars or do anything else prior to using his DA. I thought this was unusual as everything I have read points to making sure the car is decontaminated prior to starting this kind of work – am I wrong in this assumption?


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## peterdoherty (Nov 6, 2013)

In my amateur opinion.... without knowing all the facts it sounds like an improper application, if he didn't follow proper steps before polishing it would imply possibly cutting corners elsewhere.


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## Short1e (Apr 5, 2009)

Hi Lucky123

It sounds as if the detailer hasn't fully removed the coating.

Could you maybe take a couple pics to post one or us to see please?

Thanks

Laura


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## JamesRS5 (Oct 8, 2014)

Hi Lucky (inappropriate use of user name here) 

My first thought when I read the lines 2” apart was “I wonder if that’s the width of his applicator pad” you then mentioned this later. It could well be that he hasn’t applied the product using north south, east west technique so it’s left high spots of product which he hasn’t levelled correctly on his wipe down, or possibly left it too long before doing his wipe down. 

Run a water hose over the area, how does the water react in the areas with these lines and when you towel dry the car, how do the lines look as you’re wiping them over, do they look more obvious then?
Can you feel these lines with your finger nail, try it somewhere inconspicuous, you don’t want to mark the paint any more than it is. 

Unfortunately ceramic pro will have to be machined again to remove the high spots (if that’s what they are).

It’s such a shame this guy has done this to both your cars and two amazing cars at that! I really hope you can get this sorted but I’m not sure if I’d be asking him to try and fix this again, my alarm bell was ringing pretty loudly when you said he didn’t wash the vehicles prior to compounding/polishing.


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## great gonzo (Nov 4, 2010)

I also wonder if all polish residue and oils were removed before applying the coating?


Gonz.


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## Summit Detailing (Oct 9, 2006)

As JamesRS5 said above it sounds very much like poor application / removal of the product given the uniform nature of the lines.

I'm also a little concerned at the fact the car's didn't undergo what is considered to be a proper recognised wash/decon process prior to machine polishing.

I sometimes come across car's which are stored clean in a carcoon or the like and these still get washed/decon'd before the machine polisher leaves its bag.

Hope you get it sorted, although it sounds like the detailer in question has already run out of excuses/knowledge/solutions!.

cheers

Chris


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## Lucky123 (May 20, 2018)

Hi all

Thank you so much for the responses. The lines seem to be getting worse over time. Of course it depends on the light that you are looking at it with. 

The worst light to really show up all the lines is at my warehouse, so I brought both cars in this morning to take some pictures. In normal light, it doesn't look as bad. There is no electric lighting in the warehouse turned on, just the roof windows....

A day or so after completing both cars, the uniform lines started to appear - however, although they are still there, there are a lot more random lines now showing, especially in the warehouse light.

Just also to say that neither car has seen any water (rain, wash etc) since before the jobs, and they have been driven less than a mile.

The purple car is the Cosworth and the green is the E-Type:


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## garage_dweller (Apr 10, 2018)

> the detailer did not wash the cars or do anything else prior to using his DA


Maybe it's just the pics but doesn't look like the detailer has used a da at all!


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## camerashy (Feb 9, 2014)

The car has not been properly prepped before applying the coating, as mentioned, those panels have not seen a DA polisher.


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## Lucky123 (May 20, 2018)

In fairness to the detailer, I think it may be right to post his reply after I asked him some questions about the job:-

"Well succinctly put I can only work with the paint I'm given, there are at least three separate coats of paint on the ford, more than that on the Jag.

The level of correction on both cars was what I judged to be safe without endangering your clearcoat or paint thickness.

*I can quite happily stand in front of a panel of detailers and justify the jobs done. *

*You need to manage your expectations with damaged paint*. If a new guy can make the cars look perfect then I do indeed take my hat off to him."

It was because of the two sentences "I can quite happily stand in front of a panel of detailers and justify the jobs done" and "You need to manage your expectations with damaged paint" that I have come to ask for help and opinions. As far as I know, there isn't a "panel of experts" locally !!

Just to add, I paid £600 for each car.


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## Sim (Feb 18, 2008)

Personally I'd be disappointed with those results.

You've clearly paid good money and have not had the results you wanted.

The detailer should have discussed the expected level of correction with you BEFORE proceeding if he had any concerns about the existing paint. The coating process should not induce more marks unless it's done without care.

If you let us know your location someone may be able to recommend a local detailer you could visit for a second opinion.


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## BTS (Jul 22, 2013)

Be interested to see what the paint readings are? 

Sent from my A0001 using Tapatalk


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## great gonzo (Nov 4, 2010)

Out of interest did you want the cars coated or was it the Detailer who suggested it?
Personally I would of never recommended that finish to be coated it will only make the finish worse better off using a wax which would help mask some of the defects. 


Gonz.


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## Sam6er (Apr 3, 2016)

It could be that the product he used to machine polish left polishing oils on the paint that he did not wipe off afterwards (using IPA) or wash the car after polishing to remove them. The lines could have returned after the oils wore away naturally leaving what looks like badly or barely polished paint then sealing in that work with a coating. How long did this £600 detail take him to complete? Was it a single stage or multi stage polish you booked in?


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## Nanoman (Jan 17, 2009)

Are you sure you've posted pics of after it was done? 

If so you've been taken for a ride and just need to take it on the chin and move on. Find a decent, proper, professional in your area and try again. Ask for recommendations on here, check out their previous work. 

There's plenty examples in the studio forum on here of people getting amazing results from older cars. 

I'm afraid it looks like you've gone to a complete amateur who doesn't have a clue what he's doing. You should probably be glad he didn't wreck the paint properly to be honest. Could have been much worse.


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## TonyHill (Jul 28, 2015)

£600 per car!!!! :doublesho
Does the guy have a good reputation, positive reviews online etc...? Because, with respect, that looks really poor quality work.


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## detailR (Jul 23, 2016)

Lucky123 said:


> As a point of interest, on both cars, the detailer did not wash the cars or do anything else prior to using his DA. I thought this was unusual as everything I have read points to making sure the car is decontaminated prior to starting this kind of work - am I wrong in this assumption?


This really worries me.
There's things that need to be done to prepare the car which were clearly missed. From the photos it looks like them machine polishing was missed too 

Out of interest, where are you located?


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## JamesRS5 (Oct 8, 2014)

Lucky123 said:


> In fairness to the detailer, I think it may be right to post his reply after I asked him some questions about the job:-
> 
> "Well succinctly put I can only work with the paint I'm given, *there are at least three separate coats of paint on the ford*, more than that on the Jag.
> 
> The level of correction on both cars was what I judged to be safe without endangering your clearcoat or paint thickness.


The three coats being primer, colour and clear coat, at least he got something right.

I guess the crux of the problem is the condition of the paint before the cars went in, how badly swirled and marred were they? These marks that now look like scratches may always have been there but they could have been masked by a lot of swirls. 
Now when you compound the clear coat, you will more than likely remove the swirls and marring because they aren't very deep into the clear coat, what will remain is deeper marks and scratches which will now become much much more obvious as the surrounding swirls have now been removed.

Out of interest, how long did he spend correcting each car?


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## Summit Detailing (Oct 9, 2006)

The pics you've posted are definitely not application marring.
Do you have by chance any pics of the paintwork before the cars were worked on?



Lucky123 said:


> *You need to manage your expectations with damaged paint*. If a new guy can make the cars look perfect then I do indeed take my hat off to him."


Nope, it is his job as a 'professional' to manage client expectations



BTS said:


> Be interested to see what the paint readings are?
> 
> Sent from my A0001 using Tapatalk


It would be indeed.



great gonzo said:


> Personally I would of never recommended that finish to be coated.


^This, if after discussing the jobs with you and carrying out a test area on both cars before actually putting them in the diary (this also helps with managing your expectations) - if this was the best finish that could be realistically achieved I wouldn't have recommended a ceramic coating and would have explained the reasons why.



JamesRS5 said:


> I guess the crux of the problem is the condition of the paint before the cars went in, how badly swirled and marred were they? These marks that now look like scratches may always have been there but they could have been masked by a lot of swirls.
> Now when you compound the clear coat, you will more than likely remove the swirls and marring because they aren't very deep into the clear coat, what will remain is deeper marks and scratches which will now become much much more obvious as the surrounding swirls have now been removed.
> 
> Out of interest, how long did he spend correcting each car?


^ Well surmised, saved me typing something very similar:thumb:

cheers

Chris


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## kingswood (Jun 23, 2016)

wow, must be £100k's worth of cars at todays mad prices.

did he do it on ur drive? at that price of assests and £600 a throw i'd want to take it to somewhere with wheels off workshop like some of the lads on here post. also he cant have just started to DA it without even a wash?!

are they driven alot? if i was lucky enough to have them type of cars i wldnt go ceramic coating as they wouldnt see many miles.

disclaimer: i am no way a professional detailer. makes it worse that even so i can see this is a bad dance


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## Soul boy 68 (Sep 8, 2013)

Sorry to hear about this but that is poor workmanship, I truly believe he didn't DA at all, paintwork on any car needs to be sqeeky clean before hand. Isn't hindsight a wonderful thing, if only you asked the question as per title to your thread before hand. On a positive note, it's all doable and in the right hands your cars will come up brilliantly. All the best moving forward.


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## stangalang (Nov 27, 2009)

So ive just looked at the images and wanted to confirm that those are "after" pics? And did you take them or did the detailer take them as they look like they are in a nice unit

If they are afters, and not knowing how bad they were in the first place I will stick my neck on the line and say the car wasn't machined. Having no reference point is tough as they could have been really really bad and full of deep scratching, but the finish on them (assuming they are afters) looks totally un machined

I personally would have no problem coating the cars, I coat classics all the time to increase uv protection and allow for rinse less washes, but I wouldn't really want to coat such a poor finish. I would always steer an owner to try to get well above a 75% finish before coatings (if I can), or try to spend the extra money on the finish and drop the protection level

Lastly, not claying a finish like that is ridiculous. Again, there could be extenuating circumstances in that perhaps it was don't indoors so it looked like he just pulled it in and started. Not knowing the detailer or his unit I couldn't say I guess I'm just playing devils advocate

So to sum up, a car should absolutely be clayed before work begins. If those images are "afters" and you expected better then one way or another mistakes have been made, either he did poor work or conveyed expected results poorly. And I DO think he miss sold you a coating given the finish achieved and the work he did or perhaps did not do. For £600 I think you deserved far better and are right to expect it. Hopefully you get a resolution


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## Hereisphilly (Nov 17, 2014)

stangalang said:


> So ive just looked at the images and wanted to confirm that those are "after" pics? And did you take them or did the detailer take them as they look like they are in a nice unit
> 
> If they are afters, and not knowing how bad they were in the first place I will stick my neck on the line and say the car wasn't machined. Having no reference point is tough as they could have been really really bad and full of deep scratching, but the finish on them (assuming they are afters) looks totally un machined
> 
> ...


Couldn't agree more, once again Matt providing very wise words

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


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## Brian1612 (Apr 5, 2015)

No other words than that is totally unacceptable. 600 quid and he has left your paint in that nick? I would be threatening legal action if it's not put to a respectable level on both cars. That or a refund.

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk


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## waqasr (Oct 22, 2011)

Wow, those are afters? The escort seems to have loads of fine marring and scratches, the E type still has plenty of rids. Like said before hard to say what the damage was like before if that is after but If youve seen him use the DA, im guessing he only used a quick finish polish on a soft pad or maybe a primer polish before the coating. However even a primer polish would fill the marring seen on the escort.


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## muzzer (Feb 13, 2011)

Wow, the detailer in question is happy to stand in front of a panel of detailers and justify his work?
I wont comment on the paint finish, far more qualified than me have already done that but...




... not washing the cars??? Really?? That is the basic thing you need to get right no matter who you are, no matter if you are Joe Soap cleaning his car on his drive or a Larry Kosilla type detailer. If your wash and decon routine isn’t top notch then everything afterwards is affected.


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## Jools (Nov 30, 2007)

What has he polished it with.. a brick


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## BradleyW (May 4, 2015)

Those images are concerning to say the least. Perhaps the paint was seriously thin and the detailer decided not to take too much clear off?


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## fatdazza (Dec 29, 2010)

BradleyW said:


> Those images are concerning to say the least. Perhaps the paint was seriously thin and the detailer decided not to take too much clear off?


It may have been. However if that was the case any decent detailer would explain this to the customer to manage their expectations of the finish likely to be achieved.

Any way you look at it, if the pictures posted are the state that the "detailer" left it, then the customer has been badly let down by the "detailer"


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## BradleyW (May 4, 2015)

fatdazza said:


> It may have been. However if that was the case any decent detailer would explain this to the customer to manage their expectations of the finish likely to be achieved.
> 
> Any way you look at it, if the pictures posted are the state that the "detailer" left it, then the customer has been badly let down by the "detailer"


I can't help but think that many weekend warriors on this forum, me included, could probably achieve a better finish compared to the images posted on this thread. If the paint was too thin, and that's why minimal defect removal took place, this should've been explained before proceeding (about the thin paint).


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## Summit Detailing (Oct 9, 2006)

Any update on this OP?


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## Gleammachine (Sep 8, 2007)

Wow!!! Based upon your after pictures, I'd say that's not been machined with any degree of cut. 
I don't know what was discussed between yourself and the detailer, everyone's prices are different, but for a similar cost I would only be offering a single stage machine polish and coatings. 
However I wouldn't be recommending a coating if the finish from a single stage wasn't going to give adequate results, clearly you haven't received the result nor preparation, the detailer clearly hasn't managed customer expectation.


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## Sawel (Aug 5, 2016)

IMO I think it's pretty obvious that a machine polisher has been nowhere near that paint.

Normally, if there's scratches remaining you can tell the paint has seen a machine polisher as the clarity is pretty good and has a burnished appearance - but I don't see any of that in those pictures and those scratches have clearly been untouched.


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