# Technique vs. Product - Just How Important is the Product?



## Dave KG

The varied talk of polishes on the forum has got me thinking a lot recently about products and there comparative qualities... And I'm pretty much coming to the conclusion that as far as polishes go, there are a great many out there more than capable of delivering superb results *if* the technique for using that particular polish is spot on *and* in the cases of some polishes (Menzerna) the ambient conditions are correct...

The previously much raved about PO85RD3.02 Intensive Polish is a superb polish, on its day, of that there is no doubt... But then, ultimately (for me anyway), so is Meguiars #83 which appears to have fallen out of fashion. Different working style (slightly), but I'd be happy to say that as far as finishes are concerned, #83 could match 85RD3.02 providing you hit the technique for use spot on... Now many discussion are swinging round to the 3M polishes, which are also excellent I find in my so far limited use of them - but ultimately are they, to the unaided eye, going to finish down any better than the Menzerna range on their day *if* the users of the polishes have hones a technique that suits the polish (and naturally the paint, as this differs too) right down to a tee? As 3M becomes more and more "fashionable" to the detailing community, does that make the resulting finish for them ultimately better than Menzerna/Meguiars/Farecla? This is not a dig at 3M polishes, they are excellent - but what I'm trying to emphasise, in perhaps not the best way, is that IMVHO its far far more important to have a spot on technique adapted to the tools (polishes) you are using to get the ultimate finish. 

On a very very fine detail, some polishes are perhaps better than others in the way they finish and the way in which they cut (and obviously there are differences in the way a light polish cuts to an abrasive compound in what they will remove)... But ultimately, can our eyes unaided resolve the differences in finish between properly worked #83 and properly worked IP for example... or perhaps verging a little more extreme, properly worked G3 and properly worked #83...? 

While I'm not saying that a quality polish is not important, what I'm opening up for discussion is just how important is the polish you are using in comparison to the technique you develop to use it? I'm coming more and more round to the opinion, as I hone techniques to work with a variety of different polishes, that on the rotary at least it really is all about the technique and a lot less about the choice of polish that is sometimes implied. If you tune your technique to get the best from a polish, you will achieve superb results - use that technique with a different polish and the results wont be so good - but that doesn't mean that the second polish is a poor polish, it just requires being adapted to. 

I open this up to a discussion, as I'm interested on people's views on this as its something I've been thinking about for some time. But right now, I will be varying, honing and tuning my techniques rather than searching through loads and loads of different polishes in the search of my ultimate machine polishing finish...


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## L200 Steve

Nicely put Dave:thumb:


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## Mike_001

Hi Dave!

Nice point. But I think there's more to it than product and technique.
IMO a VERY important factor ist THE PAINT you're working on.

The 85 RD3.02 and 106FA are specially formulated for those nowadays very popular scratch resistant clearcoats.
And when working on those they are brilliant, and ambient conditions are much less important IMO. They can get a bit tricky, right. But I only ran into such problems on softer paint like japanese or Opel/Vauxhall for example.
On these, softer paints the MirrorGlaze polishes are still my weapons of choice.

So I think the point is this:
Hone your technique on the machine, have some decent polishes at hand AND know how to set up for the given challenge.


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## Dave KG

Yes, the paint being worked on appears to be a very significant factor, as many detailer are now experiencing - problems with Menz ceramiclears on softer paints such as Honda, though personally it was harder paint it played up for me on... 

But definitely the type of paint has a clear influence as looking at Engine_Swap's post (hope he doesn't mind me mentioning it here) in the Showroom about the Accord Type R, on the repaint areas the Menz was working a treat, but not on the standard Honda paint. So clearly the paint plays an important role as you rightly point out.  

One thing I was trying to get from this discussion is that there's a lot more to machine polishing than simply a good polish - and that technique and the ability to adapt to the situation in front of you (the paint) is ultimately far more important than the polish itself.  

Great point about the paint types. :thumb:


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## Tiauguinho

This thread is going to get hot with lots of usefull information!

I really enjoy the 3.02 and 106FA. I find that 106FA is more tolerant to temperature and humidity then 3.02, but alas, doesn't have the same cutting power. There are days where 3.02 can clog very fast on the pad and generally refuse to work at all (for those days I pass to the Sonüs polishes I still have).

Overall I like to work down 3.02 slowly and I find that it gives me the best results this way, as you can check on the A6 that I did recently:

http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=42488

Picture below is car just polished with 3.02 done with 2 slow hits









On my own car (Mazda MX5) I found that 106FA is terrific and leaves a really nice gloss over the paint.

Been itching to try #80 and #83 on Audi paint (which is hard as stones). Whats your experience with them on VAG paint DaveKG?


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## TOGWT

The final result can only be as good as the surface it’s applied to. It really is all dependants upon, process over product; 85% preparation, 5% product suitability, 7% application methodology and the balance is in the ‘guy’ of the beholder (a detailer’s knowledge / skill level is also extremely important)


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## Dave KG

Tiauguinho said:


> Been itching to try #80 and #83 on Audi paint (which is hard as stones). Whats your experience with them on VAG paint DaveKG?


On a demo day a wee while ago, working on a metallic black Audi A4 (2005 IIRC), Meguiars #80 on a polishing pad was enough to deal with the light swilrs on the paint. This was by PC.

The #83 I find to be highly capable on hard paints, such as the Audi and the (I find) harder paint of Mercedes. By rotary, I'd say it has a cut certainly equivalent to PO91L, and as near as damn it the cut of PO85RD3.02 with for me an equivalent finish but with increased reliability in that it appears to be more flexible on the conditions in which I can personally get it to work. But then, I have spent a long time working with #83, as I always liked it by PC, always felt it had the potential to be great so perservered with my technique so I could get the finishes that impressed me with it.

Work times are more crucial for the #80-series polishes: they are more prone to hologramming if not thoroughly worked than the Menz polishes which seem to be more forgiving when learning them. But climb the slightly steeper learning curve with Megs and it will reward you - especially considering the value for money factor attached to the Meguiars polishes when bought in bulk (gallon sizes).

Also, if you have a look at 182_blue's excellent PC buying guide, you will seethe results #83 can achieve on VW paint - quite excellent, and again thats by PC.


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## maesal

Amazing post, thanks Dave :thumb:


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## AndyC

Food for thought Dave - brilliant post.

I'm inclined to think right now that my own technique may be better suited to 3M polishes as I got a right result at the weekend preceeded by a god awful time with 3.02 the weekend before and I know that it can't be just the polish acting up as others have achieved brilliant results, despite acknowleding that 3.02 in particular can have a bad day now & again.

We should also remember that the pre detailed condition of the paint is an important factor - my 205 was simply slightly marred and TBH I suspect 85RD would have given me a broadly similar result all things considered but I wanted to try 3M for myself to see if it lived up to the hype - on my own car with pretty impressive results all said.

I want to get back to grips with 3.02 as on its day it's, as you said, an excellent polish. I'm sure my technique maybe amplifies its negative points so if I can refine and improve that then perhaps I won't get polish rage quite so often!


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## hotwaxxx

Okay - I'll add my comments to this thread.

I've used the full range of Sonus, Poorboys, Meguiars (#83 only) and Menzerna polishes and have found myself using Menzerna IP and FF more than any of the other polishes *with the Porter Cable 7424.*

However, when using the rotary I tend to only use Meguiars #83 on the basis that it has much more lubricity than the other polishes (bar Sonus) and gives me more playtime. I also find Menzerna IP nearly *always* clogs up the pad on the rotary but never on the PC7424. I have used Poorboys on a very few occasions and do not like it one bit - no reason but just me I guess.

So the general consensus for me is that the PC7424 is always coupled with Sonus and Menzerna polishes and the rotary is always coupled with Meguiars #83 and Sonus (on occasions).

I have not tried Meguiars #80 yet but that seems the next logical step for the rotary when tackling less severe swirlmarks. At the moment I use Menzerna Final Finish on the rotary for less severe swirlmarks and find it does not offer enough playtime even when priming the pad with a spritz of water/qd.

Cheers - Hotwaxxx


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## Clark @ PB

Agree completely with what Dave's said above, i'd also like to add that in my opinion you need to slightly alter your technique depending on what pad you're using aswell, i.e I change my style slightly with the 3M waffle polishing pads and 106FA compared to the FA and a megs polishing pad, i find you have to adjust you're technique all the time when detailing to get the best finish possible. You wont get the same results using the same methods for every polish and pad combination (in my opinion of course) 

Thats where experience in detailing plays such a big part in the ultimate finish you can achieve with todays varying paint hardnesses etc...


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## Clark @ PB

hotwaxxx2007 said:


> I have not tried Meguiars #80 yet but that seems the next logical step for the rotary when tackling less severe swirlmarks. At the moment I use Menzerna Final Finish on the rotary for less severe swirlmarks and find it does not offer enough playtime even when priming the pad with a spritz of water/qd.
> 
> Cheers - Hotwaxxx


I find this strange as you should fall asleep with boredom before the Menz polishes dry out (assuming you're talking about the Cerami-clear ones? )

You can work the latest Menz polishes for up to 8 or 9 minutes even at high RPM's before you run into the risk of dry buffing, or so i find anyways....


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## hotwaxxx

Maybe I am mistaking "clogging the pad" for "drying out" but I find the Menzerna polishes clog the pad on the rotary nearly everytime I use them and I am referring to this clogging as drying out and not giving me enough playtime.

I have yet to clog the pad with the Meguiars #83 so am saying they are more lubricated and give me more playtime.


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## Clark @ PB

How much product do you initially apply to the pad?

If its clogging up problems you're having, this may be the lubricants in the Menz acting up as when this happens you struggle to get the Rotary to play ball at all, but if they're working fine the pad glides over the panels, i quite often do it one handed on bonnets and roofs etc to save me getting a sore back  lol


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## Clark @ PB

oh and another thing, this was a great tip from L200 Steve some time ago now:

When you have your pad centred properly on the rotary, prime the pad by giving it 3 or 4 good spritz's of QD and turn the machine on while holding it on the one spot on the windscreen of the car, i do this 3 or 4 times untill the pad is damp (not wet though as this will cause you splatter), this way the pad seems to glide with the polish from the start and you get very little dust


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## Epoch

Clark said:


> oh and another thing, this was a great tip from L200 Steve some time ago now:
> 
> When you have your pad centred properly on the rotary, prime the pad by giving it 3 or 4 good spritz's of QD and turn the machine on while holding it on the one spot on the windscreen of the car, i do this 3 or 4 times untill the pad is damp (not wet though as this will cause you splatter), this way the pad seems to glide with the polish from the start and you get very little dust


Worth mentioning though Silicon based QD's CAN have an effect the oils in the polish!!!


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## Clark @ PB

Epoch said:


> Worth mentioning though Silicon based QD's CAN have an effect the oils in the polish!!!


yep, good point! Last Touch always works for me, if i dont have LT to hand i just use water


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## hotwaxxx

I am applying a circle around the outerpad (1" from the edge) with polish for each 18"x18" section on a 6" pad. I am also applying a spritz of QD to the pad after a couple of minutes of polishing or when the pad is clogging up.:wall: 

And no - the rotary does not glide for me well enough to use it one handed. It tends to hop after a few minutes of use although not so much with the Meguiars #83 polish. 

I will try that trick about the windscreen though.


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## hotwaxxx

Oh - and I am using Meguiars Quik Detailer (the one that comes with the Quik Clay kit) when spritzing the pad. Should I use M Last Touch as I have a full carton sitting at home. Should I also dilute this for spritzing on the pad?


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## Mr OCD

Duplicate post


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## Mr OCD

Dave KG said:


> Yes, the paint being worked on appears to be a very significant factor, as many detailer are now experiencing - problems with Menz ceramiclears on softer paints such as Honda, though personally it was harder paint it played up for me on...
> 
> But definitely the type of paint has a clear influence as looking at Engine_Swap's post (hope he doesn't mind me mentioning it here) in the Showroom about the Accord Type R, on the repaint areas the Menz was working a treat, but not on the standard Honda paint. So clearly the paint plays an important role as you rightly point out.
> 
> One thing I was trying to get from this discussion is that there's a lot more to machine polishing than simply a good polish - and that technique and the ability to adapt to the situation in front of you (the paint) is ultimately far more important than the polish itself.
> 
> Great point about the paint types. :thumb:


No problem at all Dave :thumb:

Since the thread I have been swamped with PM's about people experiencing the same problems and some things to try... will be trying them out shortly as I have a couple more Honda's booked in ... :thumb:

But regardless of how experienced you are and how many details you have done every car is different and like mentioned you need to adapt to the situation which is what I did with the Accord ... wasnt much fun but got there in the end...

But if it was all easy then we'd get bored


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## Tiauguinho

Thanks DaveKG for the feedback on how you feel Megs handle VAG paint. I will order them and give it a try next VAG car I get on my hands. Curious to see their working time and how oily they are.

I would really like to see a compilation of all the tips and tricks out of this thread regarding working times and techniques. Maybe its something for the mods?

Thanks for the tip Clark, regarding priming the pad with Last Touch and spin it a bit on the windshield!

:thumb:


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## Clark @ PB

hotwaxxx2007 said:


> I am applying a circle around the outerpad (1" from the edge) with polish for each 18"x18" section on a 6" pad. I am also applying a spritz of QD to the pad after a couple of minutes of polishing or when the pad is clogging up.:wall:
> 
> And no - the rotary does not glide for me well enough to use it one handed. It tends to hop after a few minutes of use although not so much with the Meguiars #83 polish.
> 
> I will try that trick about the windscreen though.


In general, i've found that if the machine starts to hop after a minute or two when it was initially working fine then you may be getting the panel too hot and causing too much friction, not saying this is what you're doing though but it may be a possibility?

In my opinion, a ring of product around the pad an inch in is too much, all you need is a 10p sized blob (or 4 pea sized blobs) around the centre of the pad (this is what i do anyways, other people put the blobs on the outside of the pad), if you apply too much then this will clog your pad and cause you problems...



hotwaxxx2007 said:


> Oh - and I am using Meguiars Quik Detailer (the one that comes with the Quik Clay kit) when spritzing the pad. Should I use M Last Touch as I have a full carton sitting at home. Should I also dilute this for spritzing on the pad?


6 and half a dozen really mate, if the quick detailer works fine for you then use it up, LT works out cheaper though, especially diluted 1:1


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## Dave KG

Clark said:


> In general, i've found that if the machine starts to hop after a minute or two when it was initially working fine then you may be getting the panel too hot and causing too much friction, not saying this is what you're doing though but it may be a possibility?


On the occasions when I found the Menzerna polishes to misbehave, the panel temperature seemed to be higher than normal even after only a small number of passes at slow speed, suggesting something is causing high friction (reaction with certain paints) and thus causing the rotary hop as it begins to dig in and bite... Several things I've tried when this starts to happen with Menz: the most effective for me personally being switching across to Megs #80-series! :lol: But, adding an oily glaze like Menz FTG to the mix does certainly seem to help matters - perhaps reducing the friction, aiding the cooling or both.

This excellently shows the point I was trying to make by kicking off this discussion though - adapting the technique to the situation being the main key to achieving superior finishes.  I guess sometimes I'm worried that some polishes are unfairly labelled as "bad" because they have a steeper learning curve, eg Megs #80-series in comparison to Menz cerami-clears.


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## rubbishboy

Epoch said:


> Worth mentioning though Silicon based QD's CAN have an effect the oils in the polish!!!


Ain't that the truth. I've been using the Menzerna polishes (with PC) and they don't like it one ickle bit, so I've been sticking to water.


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## Finerdetails

This is something I have said for a very long time.

I have been using Pinnacle Polishes, very successfully for equally as long. By sticking with the same products, I know how far each can be pushed, and what the limitations of each are.

I have, yes expanded and started to use some other polishes, tried the Menz IP - and worked with its good and bad days. I am also working with some 3m gear.

For me, I stock polishes like I stock machine pads. I hold them by grade and ability, some for certain charactistics for certain paint types. Ulitmately I have around 6/7 polishes used for paint correction. Linked to five grades of pads, 6 levels of speed on the rotary, 4/5 levels of pressure on the rotary, and lastly the actual handling technique, I think I could just about tailor my game to most paintworks


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## Cloud

This had made an intresting read for me, learnt a fair amount.



Clark said:


> When you have your pad centred properly on the rotary, prime the pad by giving it 3 or 4 good spritz's of QD and turn the machine on while holding it on the one spot on the windscreen of the car, i do this 3 or 4 times untill the pad is damp (not wet though as this will cause you splatter), this way the pad seems to glide with the polish from the start and you get very little dust


I will try this when the time comes, thank you for the information.

Nice post Dave


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## Glossmax

Dave you mention in the first post about the slightly different way in which you machine between Menz and Megs. I know the Megs has a longer working time, can I ask in what way do you change your method?
It would be nice to know what methods people have found work best (for them at least).


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## Phil H

very interesting read, agree with a lot of comments. I have yet to play with 3M polishes but have tried many products. 
Everyone has their preferred polish, pad, technique etc but its what ever works for you. In the past i have just used 3.02 with a combination of pads and achieved heavy correction right down to LSP ready only by changing pads. 
But it is a very good point that DaveKG makes with technique and experience more than a polish.


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## Dave KG

Pug_101 said:


> Dave you mention in the first post about the slightly different way in which you machine between Menz and Megs. I know the Megs has a longer working time, can I ask in what way do you change your method?
> It would be nice to know what methods people have found work best (for them at least).


I personally use #83 at higher speeds for the majority of the passes (between 1800 and 2000rpm, as opposed to circa 1500rpm with the Intensive Polish), as I find I get a better result myself at these speeds, and a better result with the Menz at slightly lower speeds. Pressure wise, I use the same pressure with both polishes: light to medium, and medium pressure on the finishing passes, always down at slow speed to refine the finish. I'd say consistently, #83 takes me about a minute or so longer per set also to achieve the finishes which I am happy with. I'd also say that I move the machine faster with the #83: with IP, the machine glides and it seems suited to a nice slow gliding pace across the panel and this for me is how I get my best finishes from the Menz, whereas with the Megs I'm moving the rotary a bit faster around the paint: still not moving quickly, but notably faster than I do with Menz, as it just feels happier doing it this way.


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## Glossmax

^^^
Thanks dave.


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## kk1966

It seems there is hope for me yet judging by this thread and my bad experience with 3.02. After my initial experience on an orient blue bmw i thought the 3.02 was alot of fuss about nothing. But now after reading the many posts that davekg refers to i know that it surely must be the ambient temperatures, technique and my choice of pad. In all the years i have been using a rotary (double figures) and valeting/detailing i must have an absolute fortune in redundant full bottles of various manufacturers polishes/compounds. About 25 various sized redundant bottles at last count including one by JewelUltra that advertises itself as a "Chemical cutting paste" that i could only get to work on an old Merc.

I am surely not the only person here who has spent good money on a polish/compound that has promised excellent results only to discard it to one side whilst muttering "bloody useless" or worse and never really giving it the technique it deserved.

Many thanks for this thread and the benefits it will reap

Sorry.........am i boring you now


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## Dream Machines

What a fantastic thread dave. that's why I call you Maestro
Clark put up some good points and I've seen PB's detailing work pics and my god, they are amazing

It's been my experience that 3M just doesn't work for me and will not provide the wetness and clarity of menzerna
Technique is extremely important with any polish, some have to be used a specific way and won't allow you to vary the style

I started with Menzerna in 2004 after a friend put me onto them while I was in melbourne on holidays.
IP 91L and 87MF were fantastic products and I've since moved to 106, 85RD 3.01 and 85RD Finishing, FP II (USA bottle) and PG which is so great as it never leaves hazing or swirls behind.

Another thing to consider is what the paint likes. Again my experience has taught me that some paints just don't like some products or they used too but what the owner put on the car before I detailed it, changed that

My daily hack, 94 hilux which has lovely paint on the bonnet but crappy paint everywhere else, refuses to let me use 106. It just instantly dries up and the pad bogs down where as aussie gold clear cut and Showroom Glaze spray on shine work brilliantly on it. 

I don't believe that it's good practice to use the same one brand of polishes on every car you do. Over the five years I've been serious about this, I've purchased farecla, malco, menz, 3M, Sonus SFX V1 and V2, Aussie Gold, Driven, Carlack, Soft 99, Dinitrol 7020, U Pol, Fireglaze, Glare, Prima Swirl, Einszett, Four Star, Pinnacle XMT, Wolfgang, Blackfire, Ultra Gloss, Duragloss, Top Gear Final Glaze & NSP and Permagard and they all get used at some stage, while Menzerna is the most common used.

Somehow I have managed to find out how to use all these and only two products I've bought (not polishes) have really dissappointed me to the point that I left them on the shelf for years.

Fortunately, the owner of Aussie Gold has mixed up a runnier version of Clear Cut for me as the one sold around australia is a thicker one with a shorter working time and has less polishing power.

The abrasives and ingredients used in polishes are quite varied and which paints they work on best are due to the paint liking those ingredients

The pads you use with polishes can also effect the results.

Edge are quite porous but flexible and have a rough texture.
Lake country use stiffness rather than gritty texture for cutting and some of them are not flexible and are less porous than edge.
meg's burgundy is really rough and stiff and is great for cutting and the yellow polish pad has a really nice softness to it. almost as soft as a pillow, which I like alot.

Glare's hurricane pads are claimed by the company to be not porous at all to allow the pro polish and infinity plus to properly dissappear into the paint.
Their probably just LC or edge pads. 

Sometimes edge pads work with menz and other times they cause dusting or hopping

The ingredients in polishes can be any of these.
aluminium oxide, titanium oxide, bentonite, glycerin, acrylic emulsion,volcanic ash, morpholine, naptha's, odourless kerosone, CITMIT, white spirits and many more.

So I believe the product is very important but any bunny can buff, it takes someone with talent who uses the right techniques with each product and some knowledge of paints and polishes that can get the best out of any polish.
God created each of us uniquely and the way I work with a polish and which ones I use may not be the best way and product for someone else to do it 

At the moment I am thinking about adding glycerin to some polishes so theirs a longer working time and less dust. Duragloss 601 also helps with that sometimes when you buff it in at 900 rpm on the rotary for 20 seconds and then apply the polish over the top of the 601 which still is sitting on top of the paint.
Finally, I have one question for you all

I know that the abrasives remove the defects but what ingredients in polishes give that sensational gloss finish?


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## Tiauguinho

Thats a very good post Dream Machines and a very good question at the end (although I can't trully answer it in a factual scientific way).

I've been thinking on on getting some Edge Wave pads. How do you find them to handle Menz on the Rotary?


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## Tiauguinho

*bump because this thread is too good to go down*


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## Dave KG

Excellent post, Dream Machines! :thumb:


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## rubbishboy

Dream Machines said:


> I know that the abrasives remove the defects but what ingredients in polishes give that sensational gloss finish?


This is based on my experiments making a wax and pre wax cleaner, but I would say the oils used make a difference to the glossyness. Not only are they lubricating and help the application but certain oils will bring something to the finish by cleaning and feeding the paint.

I think that some manufacturers would also use a silicone to help enhance the shine, mainly because it is would be an easy way to get a good shine from a product.


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## PhillipM

To some extent it has to be the fine abrasives as a chemical wipedown after an abrasive session still leaves you with that look, oils and waxes just wet it and help with the refraction/reflection of the light on it.


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## -ROM-

Well my opinion and it is a universally applicable theory is good materials/products/tool/etc only compliment a good technique. I am big into my photography and having a top of the range camera helps to acheive the results i desire, however it doesn't make me a good photographer in it's own right.


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## Dream Machines

If it was oils, wouldn't they come off with an alcohol wipedown or after a wash or a few weeks in the sun 
It must be a combination of both.

Another thing I've thought about is if clearcoat is being removed by these, how come it never affects your polishing pad when working and how come it can't be felt or seen on the pad. 
Surely their has to be some trace of it somewhere on the surface or pad


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## Glossmax

Won't it be suspended in the residue you wipe off?


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## rubbishboy

Dream Machines said:


> If it was oils, wouldn't they come off with an alcohol wipedown or after a wash or a few weeks in the sun
> It must be a combination of both.


I don't think I was very clear with what I meant. I wasn't suggesting that the oil is staying on the paint and giving the finish, all though in a glaze that is quite likely, or that the oil is doing more than the abrasive. But certain oils will actually clean the paint and give something back to the paint.


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## AndyC

Sticky'd - keep this going as it's proving 1) excellent food for thought and 2) is what DW is all about :thumb:


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## Neil_S

Me and Alex were helping out a DW member yesterday and demoing the PC and the Rotary and letting them have a play (this on relatively new BMW paint).

For me the lesson of the day was really to highlight how much a difference the pad plays in this and how you can vary the cut of the polish by using a different pad and also how important pad selection is.

We were using the 3M waffle pads (the blue finishing and the black pad which was slightly more coarse, but still very soft).

By rotary and with PO106FF, both pads worked well, the black pad providing slightly more cut with the polish, both were able to break down the polish very nicely and leave a hologram free finish.

By PC we had a completely different story, we used the black pad and it was clear that with this pad, the polish was not breaking down, after working the polish for a good 7-10 minutes we were left with what looked like hand applied wax on the panel, not broken down evenly at all and difficult to remove.

This was a different story when stepping up to the much firmer Meguiars polishing pad which didn't suffer the same problem.

I guess the lesson for people that are just getting into it, is to make sure you have the right pad for the polish. We also let our man have a play on the 4 inch spot pads and this really demonstrated that on paints that are harder, you can get more bite with these pads by PC.


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## Dave KG

Just for fun yesterday, I decided to play lunatic with the rotary on one of my test panels... I took Menz PO85RD3.02, Megs #83, Farecla G3, Optimum Polish and with each one, I spread the polish around at 1000rpm and then fired the rotary up to 2500rpm for a couple of fast passes with a cutting pad - quel suprise, there were holograms everywhere regardless of the polish I choose to use. The #83 and G3 generated quite a bit of splatter too, prob because I used too much polish as well just for entertainment. This was huge fun I have to say, but also ably demonstrated that no polish, if treated with fists of ham, will work well - regardless.

Then, I started to alter my technique - individually for each polish. One main observation struck me... The polishes that are considered "best/superior/whatever.." were the ones that the technique came quickest for... That is to say, with Menzerna PO85RD3.02 (behaving today), was the quickest to adapt a working technique too and was the first of the set to get a crystal sharp finish - from a "standing start", this was the polish that was easiest to use. Conversely, G3 was the one that took more effort with spritzing methods, pressures and number of passes to get the finish to be LSP ready... Harder to learn, more effort required in the learning process: BUT, once learned, it was performing up there with the "best" polishes.

So whats this I'm trying to say... From toying around, it seems there's a correlation between the _ease of learning_ and perceived quality of polish. Menzerna PO85RD3.02 is widely accepted to be one of the best medium abrasive polishes on the market, #83 is in many cases regarded as a lower quality polish - a poorer performer. But ultimately, I can personally get equivalent performances from these polishes, the primary difference being that learning the Menzerna was a faster process and the Menz (when its behaving) is also more forgiving... Its easier to inflict holograms with #83 than PO85RD3.02, as the #83 is more sensitive to the work time and being correctly worked, the 3.02 seems to have a larger margin for error. But ultimately in my mind, there is no better or worse performer here as far as correction and end finish is concerned.

What worries me sometimes is that many polishes are labelled as "bad" simply because they have a longer learning curve, but in actual fact many polishes will perform excellently if you take the time to learn how to use them properly... And yesterday, the polishes sometimes labelled as "bad" (G3, #83) were the ones with the longer learning curves but ultimately they performed as well as the polishes labelled as "good".


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## TOGWT

*Silicone Removal:*

_*Surface preparation-*_ if previously applied products containing silicone have been used, apply a silicone oil and / or wax remover (solvent) to remove as much of the silicon as possible before polishing

*Polishing - *when a silicon-free polish works on the paint surface it uses aluminium oxide particles, suspended in water and hydrocarbons and a mechanical process (polishing) to abrade the paint surface to the base level of the scratch. Silicon cannot be removed by mechanical means; silicone can only be removed with chemicals (solvents). If it is not removed the silicon mixes with the paint dust and polish powder and it creates a smear on the paint.

*Note-* Menzerna polishes are very intolerant of silicone oils as they will cause surface smearing


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## John-R-

Dave, what do you make of the CG's diamond cut range, I have recently used these on an X5 and a Seat Leon, each time I used a PC and SFX-2 pad, just changed the compound to achieve the desired correction.
Personnally I have found these very easy to work with.

John


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## Avanti

Nice thread DaveKG , you indded are the King, and I enjoy reading your posts with enthusiasm. I always question product and technique, until my technique is good and works for me, I cannot see me splashing out too much, eg Silverline polisher and at best Farecla pads.

remember these?

From this










to this










using these










and also

this










to this










using AG SRP

and also

this










to this










also using AG SRP.

All of them I am pleased with, the one with the low cost products I am most pleased with, and was the latest one out of the 3, so technique seems to have a say in the matter over and above product :thumb:


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## Tiauguinho

Whats the take on the SSR polishes from Poorboys? Are they comparable to the Megs #80 and #83?


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## Clark @ PB

Is that a before or after pic? just curious as that looks like buffer trails left on the back 1/4?


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## Dave KG

John-R- said:


> Dave, what do you make of the CG's diamond cut range, I have recently used these on an X5 and a Seat Leon, each time I used a PC and SFX-2 pad, just changed the compound to achieve the desired correction.
> Personnally I have found these very easy to work with.
> 
> John


I have and have used a few times the Diamond Cut range (DC1000 and DC2000), and they can be made to perform and deliver results that will compete with the best polishes out there, the lighter abrasive version especially finishing down very well. I was not personally a fan of the dryness of the polishes, I found the work time a little short for my personal liking (the new compounds out from CG are longer working and suit my preferences better, and are excellent performers). But they do perform well and if they suit your technique and methods, I'd stick with them as they are certainly capable of excellent results when used correctly.



Tiauguinho said:


> Whats the take on the SSR polishes from Poorboys? Are they comparable to the Megs #80 and #83?


SSR2.5 ~ #83
SSR2 ~ #80 ............. approximately is what I found.

Quite a short work time compared to the #80-series, which suits some but doesn't really suit me, although they will still deliver very good results when used correctly. The SSR2.5 I couldn't get to cut quite as well as #83, but thats likely down to my personal machine technique suiting the style of #83 more than anything else as I have seen very good results from the SSR range.

It reminds me very much of a Mike Philips quote: "Find something you like and use it often" - and its so true in detailing. I love trying out new products, as its a hobby for me and I like to know whats on the market and I enjoy it, but ultimately, you can achieve jaw-dropping results time and time again honing your techniques with products you like.


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## Bigpikle

so, it sounds like you're suggesting that the Menz polishes have a slightly shorter learning curve than the Megs or others? 

Would it therefore be a good idea for a complete machine polishing newbie like myself to start with these and use them to develop a solid base technique (with the UDM and not rotary!)?

I was sold on them but got concerned after reading all the 'when IP played up' posts, and Dave, as you know we spoke about Megs 80/83 yesterday at Coxys.

I really want something that will deliver some good results initially, and reliably, as I will have little or no control over the environment where i use them, until I can get the experience to understand really what i am doing...


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## Mike_001

Bigpikle said:


> I really want something that will deliver some good results initially, and reliably, .......... until I can get the experience to understand really what i am doing...


I'd say that's a contradiction.

For a complete newbie I always recommend to start with Megs #80.
Lots of play time, good lubricity and yet some nice cut.


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## Glossmax

Bigpikle said:


> so, it sounds like you're suggesting that the Menz polishes have a slightly shorter learning curve than the Megs or others?
> 
> Would it therefore be a good idea for a complete machine polishing newbie like myself to start with these and use them to develop a solid base technique (with the UDM and not rotary!)?
> 
> I was sold on them but got concerned after reading all the 'when IP played up' posts, and Dave, as you know we spoke about Megs 80/83 yesterday at Coxys.
> 
> I really want something that will deliver some good results initially, and reliably, as I will have little or no control over the environment where i use them, until I can get the experience to understand really what i am doing...


from what I am reading just from this thread I would say that with the Menz playing up the Megs would seem the safer newbie polish (also helped by it's longer work time), but if your using a rotary the high rpm's used with Megs (ie. more chance of burn) means the Menz seems a lot safer.
Has any polish been developed for a Dual Action machine like the PC/UDM as I am guessing there all designed for use with rotary machines.


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## Dream Machines

For a newbie, I recommend 4 inch pads and VM or finishing polish and glazes
Once they get the nack of that, then move up to bigger pads and agressive products


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## Bigpikle

Dream Machines said:


> For a newbie, I recommend 4 inch pads and VM or finishing polish and glazes
> Once they get the nack of that, then move up to bigger pads and agressive products


but 4" pads are more aggressive than 6" pads....?


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## Glossmax

^^ they move slower at the edge than the larger pads. 
I am using a 4" edge on my little rotary to good effect. I find the larger pads a lot harder to control, but my machine is quite small and light which doesn't seems to help. The Silverline I had was easier with big pads.


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## Mike_001

Bigpikle said:


> but 4" pads are more aggressive than 6" pads....?


That's true for the random orbital. On the rotary it's the other way round.


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## TOGWT

Mike_001 said:


> That's true for the random orbital. On the rotary it's the other way round.


If you are concentrating friction heat to a smaller area it would be more aggressive on a rotary due to higher RPM.

It does help the PC insofar as it increases friction heat, again due to a smaller area


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## Dave KG

^^ Smaller area on the rotary, but less aggressive owing to the slower linear speed of the smaller pad - the 8" pads by rotary will generate most heat (actually just a by product of the friction, nothing really effective from it) as they have a faster linear speed at their outer edges for any given rpm. the 4" pads by contrast are moving slower and generate less heat as a consequence, the contact area itself on the rotary having little effect on the amount of heat generated as it comes from the motion of the pad breaking down the abrasives.


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## Tiauguinho

DaveKG,

Do you prefer to work with 4'' or 6'' on the vertical panels?


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## Dave KG

6" pads for me.


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## Tiauguinho

And how about Prima polishes, got any experience with those Dave?


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## MattOz

Tiauguinho said:


> Thanks DaveKG for the feedback on how you feel Megs handle VAG paint. I will order them and give it a try next VAG car I get on my hands. Curious to see their working time and how oily they are.


Hi Tiaguinho,

This is the result of Megs #83 worked on PC using a Megs cutting pad on an Audi TT bonnet. Took a couple of passes at speed 4/5 but worked a treat on the hard VAG paint. 










Matt


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## Tiauguinho

Thanks for the feedback Matt! That surely looks like a marvelous correction! Good job


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## Yoko

Dave KG said:


> The varied talk of polishes on the forum has got me thinking a lot recently about products and there comparative qualities... And I'm pretty much coming to the conclusion that as far as polishes go, there are a great many out there more than capable of delivering superb results *if* the technique for using that particular polish is spot on *and* in the cases of some polishes (Menzerna) the ambient conditions are correct...
> 
> The previously much raved about PO85RD3.02 Intensive Polish is a superb polish, on its day, of that there is no doubt... But then, ultimately (for me anyway), so is Meguiars #83 which appears to have fallen out of fashion. Different working style (slightly), but I'd be happy to say that as far as finishes are concerned, #83 could match 85RD3.02 providing you hit the technique for use spot on... Now many discussion are swinging round to the 3M polishes, which are also excellent I find in my so far limited use of them - but ultimately are they, to the unaided eye, going to finish down any better than the Menzerna range on their day *if* the users of the polishes have hones a technique that suits the polish (and naturally the paint, as this differs too) right down to a tee? As 3M becomes more and more "fashionable" to the detailing community, does that make the resulting finish for them ultimately better than Menzerna/Meguiars/Farecla? This is not a dig at 3M polishes, they are excellent - but what I'm trying to emphasise, in perhaps not the best way, is that IMVHO its far far more important to have a spot on technique adapted to the tools (polishes) you are using to get the ultimate finish.
> 
> On a very very fine detail, some polishes are perhaps better than others in the way they finish and the way in which they cut (and obviously there are differences in the way a light polish cuts to an abrasive compound in what they will remove)... But ultimately, can our eyes unaided resolve the differences in finish between properly worked #83 and properly worked IP for example... or perhaps verging a little more extreme, properly worked G3 and properly worked #83...?
> 
> While I'm not saying that a quality polish is not important, what I'm opening up for discussion is just how important is the polish you are using in comparison to the technique you develop to use it? I'm coming more and more round to the opinion, as I hone techniques to work with a variety of different polishes, that on the rotary at least it really is all about the technique and a lot less about the choice of polish that is sometimes implied. If you tune your technique to get the best from a polish, you will achieve superb results - use that technique with a different polish and the results wont be so good - but that doesn't mean that the second polish is a poor polish, it just requires being adapted to.
> 
> I open this up to a discussion, as I'm interested on people's views on this as its something I've been thinking about for some time. But right now, I will be varying, honing and tuning my techniques rather than searching through loads and loads of different polishes in the search of my ultimate machine polishing finish...


Cool :thumb: hi! I'm new here, hope you can teach me when i have some help from you. My name is Yoko from Malaysia.:wave:


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## V8burble

MattOz said:


> Hi Tiaguinho,
> 
> This is the result of Megs #83 worked on PC using a Megs cutting pad on an Audi TT bonnet. Took a couple of passes at speed 4/5 but worked a treat on the hard VAG paint.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Matt


That looks to be an LSP ready finish from the #83 there. In person does it look so good? It obviously corrected well with a cutting pad, but did it finish up as well as it looks there?


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## Dream Machines

The technique has to be matched to the product for optimal results, there is no doubt about that. 
Working time of each one can be different as can be working speeds

While I believe that Menzerna and even those not mentioned of here, that I use are better than 3M, Farecla and many others due to the quality of the milled abrasives and the spreading oils, if the technique is correct, a great and even spectacular finish can be obtained.

What I use depends on the customers requests. they can choose to have the colour darkened and enriched, made deeper, wetter, maximum refraction and many other things. Each polish has it's unique colour characteristics
Optimum provides a solid bright red whereas prima gives a darker, richer and sharper red.


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## Bigpikle

Dream Machines said:


> What I use depends on the customers requests. they can choose to have the colour darkened and enriched, made deeper, wetter, maximum refraction and many other things. Each polish has it's unique colour characteristics
> Optimum provides a solid bright red whereas prima gives a darker, richer and sharper red.


this intrigues me 

Surely an abrasive polish is simply removing small amounts of clear, or in the case of SS paint, some paint. If that is the case it is simply revealing what is underneath, and hence restoring the finish of the original paint as it was applied. I understand some polishes may leave 'oils' that enrich the finish etc, but surely these are not realy going to change the look of the paint significantly, or last long, or even stay at all once additional LSP's are applied?

Not trying to say you are wrong, but keen to understand how one abrasive polish (rather than AIO or glaze) can leave different colour characteristics on a finish?


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## Dream Machines

Yes I know where your coming from
I did a test a few months back with all the polishes I have in stock and noticed differences in the shade afterwards. Most made the shade richer and darker, optimum for example was brighter


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## AW8

Liking the audi work using #83 cutting pad.

Link discussing cut pads on the PC below :

http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?p=645705#post645705

Would be interested to see further comments if made on that thread.


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## v-g

I read what Mike Phillips said and now I'm too scared to use my cutting pads and abrasive products.


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## Dave KG

v-g said:


> I read what Mike Phillips said and now I'm too scared to use my cutting pads and abrasive products.


Woah there... why scared?

It is put out that one should not use cutting pads and compounds with a G220/PC etc, but this I feel is more the manufacturers such as Meguiars (and their employees) covering their bottoms as you can if you dont know what you are doing cause damage with them - but this is damage in the sense of scouring the finish typically which is easily resolved by using a lighter polish.

A little common sense and you can get cutting compounds and cutting pads to work for you where they are necessary, so long a you are aware of their power and respect it, you'll be okay - and be prepared to need to follow them with lighter cutting products to tidy up the finish


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## v-g

Dave KG said:


> Woah there... why scared?
> 
> It is put out that one should not use cutting pads and compounds with a G220/PC etc, but this I feel is more the manufacturers such as Meguiars (and their employees) covering their bottoms as you can if you dont know what you are doing cause damage with them - but this is damage in the sense of scouring the finish typically which is easily resolved by using a lighter polish.
> 
> A little common sense and you can get cutting compounds and cutting pads to work for you where they are necessary, so long a you are aware of their power and respect it, you'll be okay - and be prepared to need to follow them with lighter cutting products to tidy up the finish


Scared because I've still not much experience and scared because I've on two occasions let "professionals" loose on my car and I've had to try to get their mess right afterwards.

We're not blessed with good detailers over here. They sure exist, but not so much "out in the open".

The first time I tried to "clean up" I bought a 4" pad and 3,5" plate for my PC and used Blackfire SRC and Poorboy's SSR range. I think these products can do some harm if used wrong.

Now I've to "clean up" again, and I don't know what to do to not make things worse. I thought about attacking again with the same products and pads, but read what this Mike Phillips wrote, and got scared.

I think the paint has been scoured in some places. There's not much swirls left, they got to them. And maybe the paint too, I don't know what I see.

I've tried to get some pics, but the camera used is not capable to pick up the discolourations. It's very hard to see. They're not visible in light of either fluorescent light, halogen light nor LED lamp. I can see them with my eyes only if I get outside and not in direct sunlight. It has to be cloudy.


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## ELBOW GREASE

That Was A Great Guide


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