# I've gone lossless...and I'm not going back



## parish (Jun 29, 2006)

No, it's not a cure for male hair loss  I'm talking about digital music.

I spend the most time listening to music at work through headphones on my iPhone.

I ripped my CD collection about a decade ago as 96-128kbps MP3s when 128 was considered high quality.

Over the last year though I've come to realise what a POS they are.

Firstly I subscribed to iTunes Match which replaced most of them (>500) with shiny new 256kbps AAC versions. A big improvement - especially the few that I had...ahem..."acquired" that were only 80 kbps and even 64!! 500+ tracks for £22, bargain, and it legalized the ones of dubious provenance 

Next, I replaced my battered old Koss HP/6 headphones that were held together with Ny-ties and duct tape with Sennheiser HD218i cans - another big jump in quality.

Recently I started looking at HD audio and downloaded a few sample 24-bit/48-96kHz tracks - awesome quality. This led me to re-rip a couple of CDs as ALAC (Apple Lossless). The difference between AAC/MP3 and ALAC/FLAC/AIFF is amazing. The difference to what I was listening to a year ago is night and day.

So I've now re-ripped the rest of my CDs, well, the ones I haven't lost or lent and not had returned 

The downside of course is that the files are so much larger than AAC/MP3 - in the region of 5-7MB per minute - so you need plenty of storage space, but if you appreciate high quality music then I'd strongly recommend going lossless.

Now I just need to save my pennies and get some Bowers & Wilkins P3 or P5 cans 

P.S. For those not familiar with audio file formats, it's no use converting AAC/MP3 to lossless as the information has already been lost and you can't get it back. You need to rip the CDs to lossless.


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## SteveTDCi (Feb 8, 2006)

I have the p3's very nice headphones, I also use a fiio e7 headphone amp/dac. I also have a pair of audio technica in ear headphones that are very good. What I would say is if you want some headphones for on the go then something like the in ear ones are great b&w c5 would be on my list ... As well as the audiobook technicas, for night time listening I'd take the p5, I use the p3's put they can leak a little.


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## SteveTDCi (Feb 8, 2006)

Oh and I have a set of sennheiser Cxc 700's that I bought and didn't like, used them for a hour and that's it


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## Tips (Mar 27, 2011)

FLAC is better than ALAC. :thumb:

But MP3 is more versatile, especially if they are converted to VBR rather than CBR. 

Acronymns R Us.


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## parish (Jun 29, 2006)

Tips said:


> FLAC is better than ALAC. :thumb:


In what respect - aside from it being more widely supported? As they are both lossless there is no difference in quality.

On the subject of FLAC vs. ALAC, I'm wondering that since Apple have open-sourced ALAC, and have therefore relinquished control of the format, whether they might adopt FLAC?


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## parish (Jun 29, 2006)

SteveTDCi said:


> I also use a fiio e7 headphone amp/dac.


Ah, interesting. I'd thought about getting an amp/DAC but while there are plenty of USB ones for use with laptops, I could only find three with iDevice dock connectors. The best seems to be the Fostex HP-P1, but at the thick end of £500 it's stupid expensive.

Another one is the iCon iDo which gets good reviews Stateside but isn't available - at least not readily - over here.

The Fiio E7 seems to be readily available, but I've read on hi-fi forums that people don't rate it, although I guess that depends on what they are comparing it to. I guess it must be an improvement over the on-board DAC.

How much of a difference does it make?



SteveTDCi said:


> What I would say is if you want some headphones for on the go then something like the in ear ones are great b&w c5 would be on my list ... As well as the audiobook technicas, for night time listening I'd take the p5, I use the p3's put they can leak a little.


I've always found in-ears make my ears sore after a couple of hours, and anyway I don't walk around listening to music so on-/over-ears are fine.


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## Tips (Mar 27, 2011)

parish said:


> In what respect - aside from it being more widely supported? As they are both lossless there is no difference in quality.


FLAC is free while ALAC is proprietary.
FLAC is easier and (faster) to decode by comparison to ALAC.
FLAC produces smaller files by comparison to ALAC.
FLAC support is much better (Apple devices can be modded to play FLAC)
FLAC supports gapless playback better, useful for DJ Mixes, Live gigs, audio books, concerts etc.

That's why FLAC is the *best* lossless format

... you've gone Lossless which is the way forward with digital music. :thumb:


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## parish (Jun 29, 2006)

Tips said:


> FLAC is free while ALAC is proprietary.


Was true, not so any more. As I mentioned, Apple have release the ALAC source under the Apache licence :thumb:



Tips said:


> FLAC is easier and (faster) to decode by comparison to ALAC.


Give modern computing power, even in phones, I'd say that was a moot point.



Tips said:


> FLAC produces smaller files by comparison to ALAC.


*slightly* smaller - I did a comparison, 36.6MB ALAC, 35.9MB FLAC so 2% smaller. Hardly noticeable.

However, that was a 16-bit/44.1kHz CD rip, but when you move to 24-bit then yes, FLAC is much better. I d/l a 35MB 24/44.1 FLAC file, transcoded it to ALAC and the resulting file was 62MB - 77% larger



Tips said:


> FLAC support is much better (Apple devices can be modded to play FLAC)


Agreed, but as I said, maybe Apple might adopt FLAC now they've opened ALAC as open-source.



Tips said:


> FLAC supports gapless playback better, useful for DJ Mixes, Live gigs, audio books, concerts etc.


Can't say I've noticed any problems with gapless albums, e.g. Dark Side Of The Moon



Tips said:


> That's why FLAC is the *best* lossless format






Tips said:


> ... you've gone Lossless which is the way forward with digital music. :thumb:


Yep


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## essjay (Mar 27, 2007)

I have quite a lot of FLAC 24bit 88Khz, 96Khz, and 192Khz music (178GB) I mainly listen through headphone Grado RS2is coupled to a Asus Xonar Essence STX.

I have converted some of these so they will play on the IPOD in the car, all to ALAC using DB Power Amp. Doesn't take that long a minute or so. 

Some titles to make your system shine.

Otis Reading - Sitting On The Dock Of The Bay
24Bit 192Khz

The Eagles - Hotel California 
24bit 192khz

Arnie Somogyi's Ambulance - Accident and Insurgency 
24-96 Khz

Black Sabbath - Paranoid
24Bit 88Khz

Fleetwood Mac - Rumours
24Bit 96Khz

Neil Young - Harvest 
24bit 192Khz

I could go on and on :thumb:

Also I've using the bit perfect ASIO driver (Beta 64) in Foobar gives the sound more edge and much more dynamic


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## parish (Jun 29, 2006)

essjay said:


> I have quite a lot of FLAC 24bit 88Khz, 96Khz, and 192Khz music (178GB) I mainly listen through headphone Grado RS2is coupled to a Asus Xonar Essence STX.
> 
> I have converted some of these so they will play on the IPOD in the car, all to ALAC using DB Power Amp. Doesn't take that long a minute or so.
> 
> ...


I admire your taste Sir :thumb:

Where do you get 24-bit versions of things like Rumours, Sabbath, Eagles etc.? When I've been searching the 'net it seems to be mainly classical and jazz that's available in 24-bit 

I believe the Pink Floyd re-mastered Immersion Edition comes with a DVD-A which is 24-bit (but only 96kHz?)

P.S. My B-i-L lives in Flixton


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## essjay (Mar 27, 2007)

Have a look here https://www.hdtracks.com/index.php?file=classic_albums bought a couple from here

although some of mine have come from other places shall we say cough cough newsgroups !

Where abouts in Flixton does your B-i-L live ?

I also have a few DVD A's and SACD's and some really bizarre DTS encoded CD's


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## efib (Sep 18, 2012)

Wait to hear 900Kbps just amazing fidelity with the right headphones ! 
Take a look at jh5 costume earphones great value for money and amazon sound! I have p5 and are great but I want some jh11 but it's pricie :S


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Guest (Nov 3, 2012)

Interesting. How does the conversion from a CD source to FLAC work? IIRC, CD's are encoded at 16bits/channel and 44.1KHz. Would converting to FLAC @ 24bit/192KHz cause interpolated data to be generated? Or are these sort of FLAC files derived from different source?


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## parish (Jun 29, 2006)

essjay said:


> Have a look here https://www.hdtracks.com/index.php?file=classic_albums bought a couple from here


But hdtracks will only sell to US residents, so how do you get them from there? I believe that you need to use a credit card registered to a US address which is how the confirm you are in the US. Got a friend/relative in the US perhaps?



essjay said:


> although some of mine have come from other places shall we say cough cough newsgroups !


This is what annoys me about the record labels (and the movie studios). They moan about piracy, then do things like only licence sites such as hdtracks for the US market which just encourages piracy. They need to wake up and realize that the world can't be divided up into geographical regions on the 'net

/rant over



essjay said:


> Where abouts in Flixton does your B-i-L live ?


Flixton Road.


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## parish (Jun 29, 2006)

BareFacedGeek said:


> Interesting. How does the conversion from a CD source to FLAC work? IIRC, CD's are encoded at 16bits/channel and 44.1KHz. Would converting to FLAC @ 24bit/192KHz cause interpolated data to be generated? Or are these sort of FLAC files derived from different source?


No, ripping CDs to FLAC (or ALAC) is at the same rate/sampling as the source, i.e. 16/44.1 but both formats do support higher resolutions. I believe FLAC can encode up to 32-bit/384kHz :doublesho

Of course, to get those levels you would need to be encoding from studio-quality analogue masters.


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## essjay (Mar 27, 2007)

You can make FLC files from from a CD but like you say they will be 16bit /44.1Khz, the 24bit 88/96/192Khz tracks come from converted SACD/DVD A's and in some cases Blu Ray.


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## parish (Jun 29, 2006)

essjay said:


> You can make FLC files from from a CD but like you say they will be 16bit /44.1Khz, the 24bit 88/96/192Khz tracks come from converted SACD/DVD A's and in some cases Blu Ray.


Interesting technical article that claims hi-def audio is pointless as it goes beyond the ability of human hearing - http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html

Seems to make some sense.

It appears that 44.1kHz was chosen for CDs because the Nyquist frequency - 22.05kHz - is just above the upper limit of (adult) human hearing


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## essjay (Mar 27, 2007)

parish said:


> But hdtracks will only sell to US residents, so how do you get them from there? I believe that you need to use a credit card registered to a US address which is how the confirm you are in the US. Got a friend/relative in the US perhaps?
> 
> This is what annoys me about the record labels (and the movie studios). They moan about piracy, then do things like only licence sites such as hdtracks for the US market which just encourages piracy. They need to wake up and realize that the world can't be divided up into geographical regions on the 'net
> 
> ...


I've defiantly bought from there.....ah balls looks like they are blocking IP addreses from the UK now just got this message

"This title is not yet available for download from HDtracks in your territory due to current contract restrictions. We are working hard to soon be able to offer this title and many others in pristine high resolution quality. Please continue to check back for further updates. We apologize for any inconvenience. We look forward to having your business."

need to get my VPN sorted


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