# Age old leather debate!



## The Doctor (Sep 11, 2007)

A question for the leather experts or anybody interested in leather upholstery.

If leather cannot be fed/nourished by using balms then why when I apply a leather cream/feed type product and I leave it sitting on the seat does it disappear after about 20 mins? I tried an experiment applying it really heavy and left it on the surface. When i came back it had either soaked in or vanished. Where does it go if it's not going into the leather?


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## nick_mcuk (Jan 4, 2008)

The Doctor said:


> A question for the leather experts or anybody interested in leather upholstery.
> 
> If leather cannot be fed/nourished by using balms then why when I apply a leather cream/feed type product and I leave it sitting on the seat does it disappear after about 20 mins? I tried an experiment applying it really heavy and left it on the surface. When i came back it had either soaked in or vanished. Where does it go if it's not going into the leather?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Exactly!

When I did the 205 interior the leather parts of the seats just sucked up the Zaino leather treatment.

I get what LTT and Dr Leather are saying but I also think there is some marketing rubbish being spouted.

I have been using AutoGlym (and now Zaino in the last year) leather products and have never had any issues with the leather in my cars.

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## trv8 (Dec 30, 2007)

I've often wondered this too. They'll probobly say that it evaporates .


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## Nanoman (Jan 17, 2009)

I think it depends how the leather has been treated. If it's got an impenetrable sealant on top then it can't soak into the leather.

I can see one of the world's leading leather processing facilities from my kitchen window so I can go and ask if someone thinks it's worthwhile.

In fact they have leather care guidelines on their site. Bearing in mind they've been doing this for over 100 years and supply some of the worlds leading aviation & automotive companies. I know this article is in The Sun but it's interesting all the same...

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepag.../4262953/Hides-and-sleek-with-Scots-firm.html

Leather care guidelines
http://www.bowleather.co.uk/bow/Care_Maintenance_2010.aspx


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## guy_92 (Oct 26, 2010)

I often wonder this too, i have used Gliptone conditioner before in the past quite regularly and never had a problem with seats becoming shiny, attracting dirt or anything....


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## kasman (Sep 10, 2009)

I have used conditioner without problems. My leather isn`t shiny, doesn`t take 2hrs to dry and doesn`t have conditioner sat on it going nowhere.

I definitely think application issues come into problems users seem to experience. 

My view is this. No doubt the leather comes out with a protective layer on it. BUT surely, over time, this layer will be removed through friction every time they are sat on. 
SO, once the layer has been removed you will now need to clean. After the clean you either replace the protective layer OR use conditioner. I have always used conditioner to no visible immediate or time related problems.

Before the onslaught, yes I sale Gliptone, no, I am not a guru in leather manufacturing my Gliptone interest is in the car care products and this comment comes from my personal views and experiences.


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## The Doctor (Sep 11, 2007)

I have some pics of my seat after I heavily applied some Autosmart leather supplement and some after I'd let it sit for about 15 mins without touching it. I'll post them when I'm on the pc. Not sure how to do it from my phone but the product all but soaked in and there was next to nothing to remove. If the leather was completely sealed then you would expect the product to stay on top. Evaporation can't be the answer as I also tried putting the same product on some painted metal and it stayed wet on the surface so it's got to be going into the leather on the seat. It's the only answer I can come up with.


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## chrisc (Jun 15, 2008)

would imagine its the same principal as moisturising cream?


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## The Doctor (Sep 11, 2007)

chrisc said:


> would imagine its the same principal as moisturising cream?


This is what I think but the leather experts swear that the leather can't absorb anything as they are sealed. I'm not saying they are right or wrong but the fact that the leather product disappears after being left on the seat means it has to be going somewhere? Where is it going?

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## Dr Leather (Sep 8, 2010)

It depends on a number of factors: the way the leather has been made, the condition of the coating of the leather, whether there are any solvent based cutting agents in the conditioners, etc. But in the whole the point is that high quality leather will have typically the following applied to its surface:

1. First an adhesion/sealer/primer coat to gain the necessary adhesion charcateristics
2. Secondly, depending on the colour it will have a rollercoated base coat which is mainly flexible resins and heavily pigmented. Black covers better than lighter colours so dark/black leathers can get away with few/less coverage as required.
3. Finally the leather will then undergo a clear topcoat application, commonly sprayed but with modern day silicone rollers the top can now be rolled on.

The resins used are typically heavily cross-linked to get the necessary physical properties and consequently they become very resistant to any sort of water based penetration. But as I've said many times before if they have any sort of solvent in them there is a chance they can cut through the coatings applied, but as they do they affect the integrity of the film, and start to detract from the physical properties that each coating formulation was designed to do. And then this ultimately leads you in to a vicious circle where the coatings are compromised and the damage is done and so the conditioners look as though they have been absorbed in the leather, but instead they sit in the layers of the coating, steadily weeping to the surface and getting rubbed away as you sit on the seat.

So here's a way of turning the argument..... if you guys apply loads and loads of these conditioners, why is it that you need to recondition??? I mean the conditioners are all oil based (animal or vegetable) and rightly as stated before they do not evapourate easily away, although we are acutely aware that these conditioners do evapourate and cause fogging in very hot conditions. But let's just say we all live in Blighty where it really isn't that hot. And seeing as you don't wash your seats (meaning wash the actual leather and the fibre structure) and also take in to account that the leather is no longer a living organ (as is the case with skin on a human or animal) so that the skin is not shedding. So if you had really truly honestly got these conditioners to penetrate in to the leather, then why do you need to recondition??? The key thing about softness in modern leather is that high quality substantive synthetic lubricants are used in the retanning process, and that moisture content is maintained through use of hydrophilic fats/humectants. 

Look I know I'll receive all the abuse for posting this up, but honestly things have changed and these traditional products are no longer needed as they were many years ago........

Rgds,

Dr Leather


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## The Doctor (Sep 11, 2007)

Dr Leather said:


> It depends on a number of factors: the way the leather has been made, the condition of the coating of the leather, whether there are any solvent based cutting agents in the conditioners, etc. But in the whole the point is that high quality leather will have typically the following applied to its surface:
> 
> 1. First an adhesion/sealer/primer coat to gain the necessary adhesion charcateristics
> 2. Secondly, depending on the colour it will have a rollercoated base coat which is mainly flexible resins and heavily pigmented. Black covers better than lighter colours so dark/black leathers can get away with few/less coverage as required.
> ...


Thanks for the in depth reply Dr Leather.

I understand what your saying and its interesting to hear from somebody like yourself who obviously knows an awful lot about leather.

I am not sure we actually do need to keep applying the conditioner. I think a lot of the time we do it just because we simply enjoy it or feel better knowing weve applied a conditioner.


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## Dr Leather (Sep 8, 2010)

nick_mcuk said:


> Exactly!
> 
> When I did the 205 interior the leather parts of the seats just sucked up the Zaino leather treatment.
> 
> ...


205?? What car are we talking about here??? Surely not a Peugeot 205???

Look, you say about marketing and in truth you have identified the exact thing here. The brands love punters to buy two products as opposed to one and simultaneously get them to get in the habit of a junkie where they believe the leather cannot do without a conditioner. And in some cases there is call for a conditioner - but not on the modern day leather types if the leather has been genuinely well made to well known brand specifications.

At the end of the day it is YOU the consumer/customer/user that needs to be happy and use what you feel is best for your leather. All I want to do is try to give some information that might be of use in looking at the cleaning regime from the tanners point of view.

Rgds

Dr Leather


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## macmaw (Mar 5, 2007)

Dr Leather said:


> It depends on a number of factors: the way the leather has been made, the condition of the coating of the leather, whether there are any solvent based cutting agents in the conditioners, etc. But in the whole the point is that high quality leather will have typically the following applied to its surface:
> 
> 1. First an adhesion/sealer/primer coat to gain the necessary adhesion charcateristics
> 2. Secondly, depending on the colour it will have a rollercoated base coat which is mainly flexible resins and heavily pigmented. Black covers better than lighter colours so dark/black leathers can get away with few/less coverage as required.
> ...


No abuse necessary lol :thumb:
The conditioner which I use is water based, contains no oils or silicones, & the leather needs to be reconditioned as the air con dries it out. 
I do wash & clean my seats regularly due to their colour (light silver grey) and that's when I condition after that, I've never had shiny or sticky seats which attract dirt using the products that I use. 
I do agree that there are products out there which are completely unsuitable, anything that requires to be left for x amount of time then buffed off is unsuitable for leather IMO. The stuff I use is applied, soaks in and that's it.


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## Dr Leather (Sep 8, 2010)

macmaw said:


> No abuse necessary lol :thumb:
> The conditioner which I use is water based, contains no oils or silicones, & the leather needs to be reconditioned as the air con dries it out.
> I do wash & clean my seats regularly due to their colour (light silver grey) and that's when I condition after that, I've never had shiny or sticky seats which attract dirt using the products that I use.
> I do agree that there are products out there which are completely unsuitable, anything that requires to be left for x amount of time then buffed off is unsuitable for leather IMO. The stuff I use is applied, soaks in and that's it.


What are the ingredients then in your product of choice??? Sounds pretty interesting.

The bit about drying out with air con is true, but the point is that hygroscopic properties are incorporated in modern leathers so that the leather sort of hydrates itself to an extent.


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## Smoothie (Jun 21, 2012)

Dont want to get off topic, but i'm looking to restore that matte finish to my leather. The car has only covered 25K but the steering wheel and drivers seat have become quite shiny in comparison to the rest of the cars leather

Any suggestions? Product recommendations?


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## bero1306 (Jan 24, 2011)

Gliptone Twins are great mate.


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## Smoothie (Jun 21, 2012)

bero1306 said:


> Gliptone Twins are great mate.


I have some Gliptone here i could use, was wondering if things had moved on especially with these Dr Leather wipes? Would they restore matte finish?

Anyone used both that could give a comparison?


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## bero1306 (Jan 24, 2011)

Smoothie said:


> I have some Gliptone here i could use, was wondering if things had moved on especially with these Dr Leather wipes? Would they restore matte finish?
> 
> Anyone used both that could give a comparison?


Depends on how much you read into all this leather nonsense. Gliptone twins left the best matt finish i have had on my seats.
I also have the AF Hide Twins but not used them as yet.


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## Tips (Mar 27, 2011)

I have used both Gliptone cleaner & conditioner and Dr Leather Wipes & cleaner solution and each products have their merits.

The Gliptone conditioner leaves a lovely smell & matte finish but over time the shine comes back in the seats. 
The Dr Leather products leave a cleaner seat with less residues and the matte finish lasts much longer.

Now I have the best of both worlds, I install a Gliptone Aroma Pad under the seat for the smell and use the Dr leather Wipes for easy clean and maintenance :thumb:

Finally, for my leather seats, I like to add extra protection against UV rays, dye transfer and water repellency with Gtechnic L1 leather guard especially as the soft top comes down in the summer and the seats are exposed to the elements.

Hope that helps.


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## TOGWT (Oct 26, 2005)

[Look I know I'll receive all the abuse for posting this up, but honestly things have changed and these traditional products are no longer needed as they were many years ago........]

No argument here


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## nick_mcuk (Jan 4, 2008)

I think the moral of this thread is basically do what works for you.....personally the Zaino Leather twins work well for me and give me that factory look I am after. 


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## Dr Leather (Sep 8, 2010)

nick_mcuk said:


> I think the moral of this thread is basically do what works for you.....personally the Zaino Leather twins work well for me and give me that factory look I am after.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


How old is the leather in your 205???


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## nick_mcuk (Jan 4, 2008)

24 years old


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## Ric (Feb 4, 2007)

nick_mcuk said:


> 24 years old


Well DR leather is talking about modern leathers.....


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## Dr Leather (Sep 8, 2010)

nick_mcuk said:


> 24 years old
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Thought so:thumb:...... yours is probably the old style of leather processing. This is what I have tried to say all along. The older style clean and feed is pretty well suited to stuff that old for sure. But not the modern stuff. I think it's important to always get all the facts out to give a correct and balanced view.

Thanks,

Dr Leather


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## nick_mcuk (Jan 4, 2008)

Agreed but they afore mentioned products work just as well on my 2010 Audi A6 SLine.....


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## Dr Leather (Sep 8, 2010)

nick_mcuk said:


> Agreed but they afore mentioned products work just as well on my 2010 Audi A6 SLine.....
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Then as you said in your earlier post - if you are happy with that system then stick with it!!!


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## RaceGlazer (Jan 10, 2007)

This is one of the most sensible threads on this hoary old topic as it finally differentiates between the older and more modern leathers and also, in the post above, that if it works for you stick with it.
My own cars are not exactly new and I've used Race Glaze and Zymol on them to great effect.


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## JakeWhite (Oct 14, 2011)

I must admit, I've used leather conditioner etc on newer mazda's, VW's etc and they didn't seem to do much in all honesty. But what I do wonder is what about these cleaner/conditioners? Are they fine just to use for the cleaning part?


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## traplin (Feb 22, 2012)

Just to add my 2 pence and as I asked before...if modern leather is sealed then why do you need a specific cleaner? Wouldn't a suitably mixed apc for example be good enough as in essence you are simply cleaning a vinyl coating? 

From my point of view this leather thing is confusing to be honest. To clean and condition or just clean?...I think people or at least myself just want to do what is best but there is logic on both sides of the fence and we're stuck between choosing. I think an answer to my question above will help loads in clearing it up. I had got myself to probably 90% on the side of just cleaning but i'm back to confused.com land

What I am almost convinced about is Gtechniq's L1 product and I am soon to by some. Wondering if I can apply this over a conditioner without causing problems?


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## Dr Leather (Sep 8, 2010)

traplin said:


> Just to add my 2 pence and as I asked before...if modern leather is sealed then why do you need a specific cleaner? Wouldn't a suitably mixed apc for example be good enough as in essence you are simply cleaning a vinyl coating?


But the point here is that you need to ensure the top coat is always cleaned in a sensible way without damaging the film which would influence the physical property characteristics. That is why in my formulation for instance we actually work direct with the manufacturers of the resins, etc and ensure that we only clean the top coat, and do not damage it in any way.

It's also not a vinyl coating. They are generally made of acrylic, polyurethane or siloxane based compounds.

Look, I think I've made my side of the discussion clear so I'll duck out of this now and leave you guys to do whatever you think is best.

Cheers

Dr Leather


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## traplin (Feb 22, 2012)

Dr Leather said:


> But the point here is that you need to ensure the top coat is always cleaned in a sensible way without damaging the film which would influence the physical property characteristics. That is why in my formulation for instance we actually work direct with the manufacturers of the resins, etc and ensure that we only clean the top coat, and do not damage it in any way.
> 
> It's also not a vinyl coating. They are generally made of acrylic, polyurethane or siloxane based compounds.
> 
> ...


With the intention being a discussion to enlighten me more (I'm in no way being argumentative)

I find what you are saying difficult to digest from a logical point of view. If these leathers are coated with a resin of some sort (as you say an acrylic, polyurethane or siloxane based compound) that is there for protection and you are saying a special cleaner is needed to prevent damage to the film then

1) Surely these resins should be able to resist even a weak leather cleaner or mild soap.

2) that film is prone to wear and tear and eventual permanent damage i.e the real leather hide being exposed in which case a conditioner will be needed at some point in the leather's life span?

And also a point which is rarely ever considered but leather ALWAYS shines with excessive use...clean or not cleaned after a while leather develops a slight sheen in my experience and I'm not just taking about car seats. When people say a formula is able to restore the factory finish its not purely through cleaning the leather but by coating it with a matting agent I would have guessed...or am I talking borrocks?


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## bero1306 (Jan 24, 2011)

Many people i know don't do anything what so ever to their leather interior and after years they look fine so any cleaner/conditioner will do imo.

Think people get caught up in the detailing hype. (Me included)

Ive used Blackfire interior cleaner & protector, Gliptone Twins, Green Shield leather wipes & Auto Finesse Hide Twins.

All do a good job


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## Dr Leather (Sep 8, 2010)

traplin said:


> With the intention being a discussion to enlighten me more (I'm in no way being argumentative)
> 
> I find what you are saying difficult to digest from a logical point of view. If these leathers are coated with a resin of some sort (as you say an acrylic, polyurethane or siloxane based compound) that is there for protection and you are saying a special cleaner is needed to prevent damage to the film then
> 
> ...


OK - so this is definitely my last post.

1. Yes the topcoat formulations are designed to resist lots of abrasion type tests that simulate years of abuse. All I am saying is that our formulation has been specifically designed to remove surface dirt, sweat, etc without damage to the topcoats used. Simple as that. If you leave crud on the surface of then this gets ground in/rubbed against the surface. My stance is to allow the topcoat to remain clean and free of contaminants and allow it to do its job properly.

2. These formulations are designed to have massive abrasion resistance to rubbing. And the leather has multiple coatings applied to the base leather. So it'll take a long time, or loads of abuse, to get through it. But yet again I state if you keep it clean then it performs at its optimum. Conditioners are for old leathers that had non-substantive fatliquors used in the retanning process. Today the lubricants are reacted to the fibre structure.

The shine comes from dirt/oil/sweat/grease collecting on the surface and this is then polished through rubbing. Most leathers for auto applications are matt looking. So our cleaner just removes the grime and reveals the original look of the leather. Some cleaners/conditioners out there employ silicone in them and that just causes a slippery shiny mess.

OK I'm off to do some work. If you check my posts over the last couple of years you'll find all the knowledge that I can pass to you without goiing in to degree level leather science.

Cheers,

Dr Leather


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## chillly (Jun 25, 2009)

All modern leather i now just clean with Dr leather cleaner if dirty and then just a wipe down with a damp or wet mf. any really old leather thats seen better days will then maybe require abit more treatment so to speak. But i think you have to look and judge for yourself what condition and how old the leather is and how badly its been treated.

15 , 20 year old poorly kept leather may need something like conditioner to bring it back to life.


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## The Doctor (Sep 11, 2007)

Thanks for everyones input on this. I was hoping that it wouldnt turn into an argument and it hasnt!

One thing i would add is if we use Dr Leathers advice that older leathers do need feeding and newer leathers dont (of which i am not saying is right or wrong BTW) then how do you decide a car has the newer type of leather or if it has the older type? Is there any way of visually knowing or a date/period when these leathers changed?

Just out of interest heres the pics i promised of the Autosmart Leather Supplement after it had just been applied and about 15/20 mins later with no buffing or any kind of wiping over. The car is a 53 Toyota Celica T Sport.

Just after application (product deliberately applied heavy)










After 15/20 mins of just sitting there


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## bero1306 (Jan 24, 2011)

Newer leather came about in the mid 90s.


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## MrHooky (Apr 9, 2010)

The Doctor said:


> Thanks for everyones input on this. I was hoping that it wouldnt turn into an argument and it hasnt!
> 
> One thing i would add is if we use Dr Leathers advice that older leathers do need feeding and newer leathers dont (of which i am not saying is right or wrong BTW) then how do you decide a car has the newer type of leather or if it has the older type? Is there any way of visually knowing or a date/period when these leathers changed?
> 
> ...


That second picture looks a pretty matte finish for the AS. Am I right in thinking that everything in the photo has AS on it? Reason I ask is there seems to be a slight colour change a third of the way down the 2nd pic.

I'm currently in two minds as to whether to go and put some AutoSmart Leather Rejnvenator onto my 2004 Audi Nappa leather. The Gliptone leather cleaner has brought the seats up looking great but I'm not a fan of the Gliptone conditioner - bit pongy. Normally find the AS a bit greasey so was just going to put aerospace 303 over the top to help 'protect'. Decisions decisions...


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## traplin (Feb 22, 2012)

Dr Leather said:


> OK - so this is definitely my last post.
> 
> 1. Yes the topcoat formulations are designed to resist lots of abrasion type tests that simulate years of abuse. *so from this I'm happy to conclude that a gentle cleaner even a mild detergent can clean leather. I'll stick with a dedicated cleaner like gliptone* All I am saying is that our formulation has been specifically designed to remove surface dirt, sweat, etc without damage to the topcoats used. *Really don't think other cleaners out there will harm the top coat* Simple as that. If you leave crud on the surface of then this gets ground in/rubbed against the surface. My stance is to allow the topcoat to remain clean and free of contaminants and allow it to do its job properly. *I think we all accept this point hence the lengthy debates on what method is best to clean leather *
> 
> ...


Now I'm not disputing that your cleaner works and works well but absolute clarity is what we are all after hence why this topic keeps coming up again and again...we just want to know so we can make educated decisions.


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## The Doctor (Sep 11, 2007)

MrHooky said:


> That second picture looks a pretty matte finish for the AS. Am I right in thinking that everything in the photo has AS on it? Reason I ask is there seems to be a slight colour change a third of the way down the 2nd pic.
> 
> I'm currently in two minds as to whether to go and put some AutoSmart Leather Rejnvenator onto my 2004 Audi Nappa leather. The Gliptone leather cleaner has brought the seats up looking great but I'm not a fan of the Gliptone conditioner - bit pongy. Normally find the AS a bit greasey so was just going to put aerospace 303 over the top to help 'protect'. Decisions decisions...


That colour change is actually the shadow of my hand and the phone lol. I took the pics in the garage and the interior light was on in the car to try and make the product show up better.


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## Dr Leather (Sep 8, 2010)

traplin said:


> Now I'm not disputing that your cleaner works and works well but absolute clarity is what we are all after hence why this topic keeps coming up again and again...we just want to know so we can make educated decisions.


No matting agent in my formulation. I guarantee you that. If you put our formula on a glossy leather then it'll remain glossy. We don't try to fool the consumer with those kind of tricks.

As I say I'm out of this thread now as truthfully I can't add anymore....... what is interesting though is that no other leather professional (from any of the companies) has come in to this thread. And that also tells me something so it has been very worthwhile.

Cheers

Dr Leather


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## Grizzle (Jul 12, 2006)

What does it tell you exactly??


I agree leather isnt shiny, my steering wheel does my under crackers in i have a a terrible thing about washing my hands (about 20 times a day) but its still shiny looking even after cleaning with a dedicated leather cleaner and Tampico brush probably wear is a factor too.


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## Bradley (Aug 24, 2006)

I believe that very early conditioners were not to only feed the leather but to stop the cotton stitching from rotting. Older unsealed leather used to dry out and were heavily effected by human body oils and dirt which effected the leather, the same is true of horse saddles which are protected by a banket put between the horse and saddle to stop the transfer of sweat and oils from the horse's body to the leather.
I've seen modern leather being sealed at the Audi factory, it's sprayed with a flexible lacquer to seal the colour coat in, this can be watched to You Tube.


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## Junior Bear (Sep 2, 2008)

I have some gliptone leather
Conditioner thanks to tips 

I don't have a dedicated leather cleaner

My leather is 8 years old.


Shall I just apply the cream sparingly or is there something I can use to clean the leather first (if necessary, like apc or something)


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## nick_mcuk (Jan 4, 2008)

Junior Bear said:


> I have some gliptone leather
> Conditioner thanks to tips
> 
> I don't have a dedicated leather cleaner
> ...


Clean it with a mild APC then apply your conditioner sparingly, then finish buffing with a clean dry microfibre to remove any excess


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## MrHooky (Apr 9, 2010)

Junior Bear said:


> I have some gliptone leather
> Conditioner thanks to tips
> 
> I don't have a dedicated leather cleaner
> ...


As above but instead of mild apc the gliptone cleaner is a great cleaner. Warm damp cloth on leather first, then apply the cleaner. Let it dwell for a few mins, if needed use a leather shoe brush to get the dirt out the grain, then wipe clean. You can literally see the crud being lifted out...

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## david_h (Sep 19, 2006)

Totally agree with the view that modern leathers are sealed so only need a cleaner.

BUT over time the sealant on the modern leather can wear off, at that point you then need to feed the leather at it is exposed to the elements, and of course clean it as well.

My black leather is very clean, I can tell that the sealant coating is still in tact on all seats except the drivers seat. I have to feed and clean this seat, all other seats can just be cleaned.


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## kasman (Sep 10, 2009)

Im not to sure about this cleaning the leather with APC guys, no matter how mild. After all, would you clean your face with anything except what you know it is ok to use? 
In my opinion, you run a high risk of removing the protecting chemicals within the leather (see DR Leather post)so is it worth the risk.

My advice is, play it safe and use a dedicated leather cleaner. Sure, it is probably best to use the same brand if you are going with a 2 pack cleaner & conditioner as one compliments the other and that is how they best perform.
If the dirt is not to heavy and ground in, then go for the wipe option as it is also easier to maintain.
If using a brush, I would also purchase the correct one and not any other type, such as a shoe brush as previously mentioned. The bristles may be to course for the leather. Again, get a dedicated soft hair type.

Alternatives are useful at times folks, but i think there is a time and a place.
Spend a few extra £s and get the right tool for the job and save yourself £s by preventing any damage.:thumb:


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## nick_mcuk (Jan 4, 2008)

Not been doing me any harm over the years when I have run out of AG Leather Cleaner or Zaino.

Also sometime you need some more "grunt" to get the leather really clean.

Of course I can understand the manufacturers coming on here saying APC is bad and too strong....they want you to buy thier products


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## WHIZZER (Oct 25, 2005)

Nick have to say im with Kasman - I wouldnt use apc on my leather .... I would only use products designed for the purpose and if that was not to hand then perhaps a damp cloth to wipe away dirt.


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## nick_mcuk (Jan 4, 2008)

Fair do's Bill, I might add when I say APC I mean AG Clean All mixed in a mega weak mix not the same strengths as I would use to clean carpets or plastics.

Although as said I mainly use the Zaino leather cleaner now and you have seen my Audi...not exactly dirty 


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## kasman (Sep 10, 2009)

I think we should all go to the pub on this glorious sunny day (before the rains starts) and discuss it


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## chrisc (Jun 15, 2008)

Some apc can be used on leather maxolens number 4 i belive which i have not tried it though as yet no leather to clean.But says you can on 5ltr tub


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## MrHooky (Apr 9, 2010)

kasman said:


> If using a brush, I would also purchase the correct one and not any other type, such as a shoe brush as previously mentioned. The bristles may be to course for the leather. Again, get a dedicated soft hair type.


Shoe brushes are soft bristles! I believe gliptone themselves used to recommend a nail brush (much coarser) but have now changed to the shoe brushes. If they're made for cleaning and protecting leather on shoes they're also good enough for doing the same to leather on seats!

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## traplin (Feb 22, 2012)

WHIZZER said:


> Nick have to say im with Kasman - I wouldnt use apc on my leather .... I would only use products designed for the purpose and if that was not to hand then perhaps a damp cloth to wipe away dirt.


But by all acconts we are not cleaning the leather are we?...we're cleaning the coating which is some sort or acrylic or polyurethane as quoted by dr leather so by that fact any gentle cleaner 'should' be ok not so? I personally only have ever used ag leather cleaner or gliptone cleaner and will only use dedicated leather cleaners. Sounds hypocritical i know but my point really is to get the facts and tease out the whole truth because i think we are being sold part truth part only with plenty marketing. I mean come on...how can a layer sprayed on as protection and meant to last many years be vulneerable to a gentle apc? It just doesnt make sense!!!

And i wait to be corrected about leather developing a slight sheen with wear despite being properly cleaned!

Where i am at the moment is this
- new leather is coated. Easily seen when comparing my front driver's seat win the rear seats. When cleaning and I apply the cleaner it wets the front seat somewhat but u can tell its sitting on some sort of layer on the back seats
- soft nail brush is fine. Come on its leather. By its own nature leather is a very tough material. And if this protective layer cant withstand a soft nail brush then it not worth a think. But just compare a soft nail brush to the scuffing action created by your jeans when sitting down and moving around in the seats. For me it 80kg of weight pressing hard jeans material into the leather!!
-any good leather cleaner is fine and will do a good job at cleaning. Gliptone and even ag leather cleaner work well for me!
-the matt effect from some cleaners is not it extracting any more grease and oil from the leather (remember we are cleaning the protective coating and not the leather) as compared to any other cleaner but a mattying compound of some sort. Just think of what a polyurethane is...its plastic...no porous so dirty can only sit on top of it and not get ingrained into is pores because plastic doesn't have pores as such (without getting too technical)
-if yr leather is new and the protective coatin is there the u only need to clean. If however this layer has worn away then some sort of protection is needed. Either a conditioner or a sealer like gtechnique's L1. Logical thinking again...if the leather is exposed then it a conditioner but if we are able to use a product to mimic the original factory protective layer then we are back to just cleaning again.

What i do want to know is whether this factory protective coating is also applied to leather steering wheels?

I tell you what would be a fabulous product!!!...something that can top up or re-apply this protection layer restoring seats to a permanent factory finish giving u another 3 or 4 yrs of a nice matt sealed finish!!!!


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## Dr Leather (Sep 8, 2010)

traplin said:


> But by all acconts we are not cleaning the leather are we?...we're cleaning the coating which is some sort or acrylic or polyurethane as quoted by dr leather so by that fact any gentle cleaner 'should' be ok not so? I personally only have ever used ag leather cleaner or gliptone cleaner and will only use dedicated leather cleaners. Sounds hypocritical i know but my point really is to get the facts and tease out the whole truth because i think we are being sold part truth part only with plenty marketing. I mean come on...how can a layer sprayed on as protection and meant to last many years be vulneerable to a gentle apc? It just doesnt make sense!!!
> 
> And i wait to be corrected about leather developing a slight sheen with wear despite being properly cleaned!
> 
> ...


:wall: Honestly your basic analogies of PU's simply being plastics is wrong as it is far more complex than that. The coatings are blends of various components, the PU's and acrylics are generally the binders used. It's a scary place these internet forums. It's all very complex and truthfully I think I have failed in trying to explain the technology used based upon some of the responses. I've tried to give you a completely genuine technical overview of modern leathers, irrespective of my products, and as such I cannot do more!!!!


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## ITHAQVA (Feb 20, 2011)

I love Dr Leather, my leather has never looked so dam good also keeps away the dreaded shine for ages :thumb:, end result = I'll stick with the Doctor to keep my racing tank happy  :devil:


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## TOGWT (Oct 26, 2005)

[What i do want to know is whether this factory protective coating is also applied to leather steering wheels?]

Leather covered steering wheel:

Steering wheels have an extra coating of protective finish on the already finished or coated leather. Perspiration and dirt are absorbed readily into the dry leather, and combined with the ultra violet (UV-B) radiation of the sun a chemical reaction occurs that degrades the finished leather. All of us have seen this wear on steering wheels

Using leather oil-based conditioners on finished leather may cause delamination from the leather substrate. As the oils will permeate the leather via the stitching or any micro-cracks in the surface, once oil gets between the urethane and the substrate it causes loss of adhesion (See also Oil and Oil based Products)

Most manufacturer's advice against using oil-based conditioners on steering wheels as it makes the surface slippery and could be dangerous if you lose control of the vehicles steering

[I tell you what would be a fabulous product!!!...something that can top up or re-apply this protection layer restoring seats to a permanent factory finish giving u another 3 or 4 yrs of a nice matt sealed finish!!!! ]

Urethane Protection Clear Coat

OEM finished leather typically has a matte clear coat to provide abrasion resistance and to protect them from ultra violet (UV-B) light, so it's important to replace this finish as it protects and enhances the leather and preserves its durability.

This clear coat (Leather Magic: DT-70 Matte Finish Clear) is water- based, polyurethane compound that will provide the toughest finish over a repaired area. The clear coat may be applied either by wiping or spraying over a surface and creates a pleasing matte finish over a colour coated surface to provide substantial protection and durability

Allow the pigmentation to cure for 24 hours before the application of the clear coat. Apply with a clean lint free 100% cotton micro fibre towel, being careful to apply a two thin uniform coats (allow each coat to thoroughly dry) to reduce build-up and streaks, allow to dry for 24 -36 hours; dependent upon temperature and humidity.

This type of clear paint can be 'heat cured' with infra-red heat, a heat gun or a hair dryer

"Hydration of Finished Leather" - http://www.autopia.org/forum/autopia-detailing-wiki/141382-hydration-finished-leather.html


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## traplin (Feb 22, 2012)

Dr Leather said:


> :wall: Honestly your basic analogies of PU's simply being plastics is wrong as it is far more complex than that. The coatings are blends of various components, the PU's and acrylics are generally the binders used. It's a scary place these internet forums. It's all very complex and truthfully I think I have failed in trying to explain the technology used based upon some of the responses. I've tried to give you a completely genuine technical overview of modern leathers, irrespective of my products, and as such I cannot do more!!!!


Ok...but what does this technical explanation of the coating mean to us in terms of cleaning and maintaining it? This is what we want to know? Does it honestly mean that only specially made formulae are good for cleaning it. Does other leather cleaners damage it? Does this coating wear away with use? If it does what do we do then? Does leather develop a natural sheen with wear (not affiliated with being dirty)?

I think im making loads of valid points here and in my previous post.

And for the record im not disputing your knowledge and or product. By all accounts on here your produc works well but people still just dont get the full picture on leather hence why these debates keep coming up!


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## Dr Leather (Sep 8, 2010)

traplin said:


> Ok...but what does this technical explanation of the coating mean to us in terms of cleaning and maintaining it? This is what we want to know? Does it honestly mean that only specially made formulae are good for cleaning it. Does other leather cleaners damage it? Does this coating wear away with use? If it does what do we do then? Does leather develop a natural sheen with wear (not affiliated with being dirty)?


Right - deep breathe......

The coatings applied are different for each layer put on. We make the base coats (which are pigmented) abrasion resistant yet flexible. But the real toughness comes from the clear top coat. I'll give you an insight in to a product we did some years ago, which actually we did with 3M in the USA. It was a compound based upon a very novel technology. We applied a single spray coating on to a piece of leather and examined under the scanning electron microscope, we then completely abused the surface with wire wool and then re-examined with the SEM. Not a bloody scratch anywhere. Consequently the product was too expensive to commercialise for use in leather, although I do think it found use in the aerospace industry. So it is clear that there are technologies that would astound the regular guy on the street as to their performance. So now I hear you say so what....that is not what we use on leather at present. And you are correct. But I can assure you that the coatings used are extremely abrasion resistant and we have numerous abrasion resistance test machines coupled with conditions of testing in wet conditions, dry conditions, high perspiration conditions, after artificially ageing the leather, etc. The list goes on. They are very tough. But they are generally aqueous (water based) resins that have been highly crosslinked, but they are not designed to be solvent resistant. Therefore whilst you clean with solvent based APC, no matter how dilute, there is a risk that it will effectively make a ***** in the armour. This weakened point will then be more vulnerable next time and effectively you create a weak link in the chain. You won't be able to see it until it is too late. That is why we developed a top coat friendly cleaner. I can't speak for other leather cleaners, nor should I, as their formulations are their own IPR but I guess they have taken this in to account.

The other think we are looking at are self-healing coatings with microencapsulated binders contained in the film that will rupture upon damage to replenish some of the coating formulation. But that is still being worked on.

The sheen you talk about is most commonly polished grease/oil/dirt/sweat that is on the surface. You seem to think we (Dr Leather) try to fool you guys by putting in matting agents, but truthfully that is a nonsense from my standpoint. I simply try to return the leather back to how it originally was by cleaning off the grime.

I can say this all over again and again until I'm blue in face. So yet again I stand by the point that it is the consumer that must ultimately decide what is right for their pride and joy. I can only supply information. I am not trying to push my product - I am simply saying find a good cleaner and look after the surface of your leather and it will look after you. If you prefer LTT, or FC, or Gliptone, etc I couldn't give a monkeys. My product stands amongst those quite happily without trying to sell you a conditioner.

So let's wait for more bashing now.

One last tip though.....if any claim to a car brand sees any trace of solvents, and trust me they will look for them, then you'll be crawling out of the showroom as you won't have a leg to stand on.


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## traplin (Feb 22, 2012)

Togwt that leather magic DT-70 looks interesting. Thanks for that


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## Dr Leather (Sep 8, 2010)

traplin said:


> Togwt that leather magic DT-70 looks interesting. Thanks for that


The only thing is that you need to get decent intercoat adhesion and ideally these resins are not cross-linked. So they will not have as high a performance.


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## The Doctor (Sep 11, 2007)

Dr Leather said:


> One last tip though.....if any claim to a car brand sees any trace of solvents, and trust me they will look for them, then you'll be crawling out of the showroom as you won't have a leg to stand on.


Dr Leather.

Autosmart Leather Supplement says on the side 'formulated and approved' for use on Rolls Royce, Bentley, BMW, Jaguar, Audi (and so on)

Where do we go from here when the main prestige vehicle manufacturers are approving and putting their name against products that leather experts such as yourself say are damaging the leather coating? I find it hard not to take your advice as your the Leather expert but on the other hand i think hang on a minute, surely the likes of Rolls Royce and Bentley wouldnt approve the use of something that is doing harm to the leather coating as you put it earlier.


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## traplin (Feb 22, 2012)

Dr Leather said:


> The only thing is that you need to get decent intercoat adhesion and ideally these resins are not cross-linked. So they will not have as high a performance.


So whats the best thing for when this protective layer had worn away?


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## nick_mcuk (Jan 4, 2008)

Dr Leather said:


> :wall: Honestly your basic analogies of PU's simply being plastics is wrong as it is far more complex than that. The coatings are blends of various components, the PU's and acrylics are generally the binders used. It's a scary place these internet forums. It's all very complex and truthfully I think I have failed in trying to explain the technology used based upon some of the responses. I've tried to give you a completely genuine technical overview of modern leathers, irrespective of my products, and as such I cannot do more!!!!


I thought you were not posting in this thread any more...:lol:

(JOKING)


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## Dr Leather (Sep 8, 2010)

nick_mcuk said:


> I thought you were not posting in this thread any more...:lol:
> 
> (JOKING)


OK - will do.


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## nick_mcuk (Jan 4, 2008)

Oh come on Darryl lighten up and smile....it was a joke and you did say in umpteen of your posts that this was your last post in the topic and you were ducking out.

Chill man....enjoy the banter and stop taking things so seriously 

*Big hugs*


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## traplin (Feb 22, 2012)

So to sum it up, we get told that a product is good for our 'coated' leather seats while they are new and in their prime but what we don't know is:

1 - is the coating susceptible to other leather cleaners (reputable brands I mean like gliptone) I honestly don't think it will be! - operative word there being 'think' but surely it can't be...it just won't make any sense. 
2 - does the protective coating wear away with time and use? (how many people actually considered this?)
3 - if the coating does wear away what is the next course of action - do we start cleaning and conditioning as in effect we would end up with bare leather
4 - or is it that this product is able to fully restore the protective coating each time it is used so our leather will never ever need anything else in the long term. (remember this products effectiveness is based upon there being a protective coating (as stipulated by the man himself) so the assumption has to be made that either the coating lasts forever or the product restores the factory coating) Lots of trust has been put into this product by many on here...they at least need to know!

May be I am just being a pain in the a*se and should shut up and go away but all I want really is answers! Technical speak about the ins and out aren't helping us really understand what's what. The intention is not to discredit but to ask those in the know to really explain else we will all just keep guessing.


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## TOGWT (Oct 26, 2005)

1 - is the coating susceptible to other leather cleaners (reputable brands I mean like gliptone) I honestly don't think it will be! - operative word there being 'think' but surely it can't be...it just won't make any sense.

Too many variables to answer this with a blanket statement Use a high-quality aqueous (water- based) cleaner, formulated without strong solvents and one that has a pH value between 4 and 10 (neither strongly acidic nor strongly alkaline). 

2 - does the protective coating wear away with time and use? (how many people actually considered this?)

The urethane coating has an abrasive _resistant additive_, but it will not last forever

3 - if the coating does wear away what is the next course of action - do we start cleaning and conditioning as in effect we would end up with bare leather

Cleaning or conditioning will not remedy worn surfaces. They need to be replaced

4 - or is it that this product is able to fully restore the protective coating each time it is used so our leather will never ever need anything else in the long term. (remember this products effectiveness is based upon there being a protective coating (as stipulated by the man himself) so the assumption has to be made that either the coating lasts forever or the product restores the factory coating) Lots of trust has been put into this product by many on here...they at least need to know!

I'll leave this for the product maker to answer, but I have serious doubts on any products ability to do this


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## traplin (Feb 22, 2012)

1 - is the coating susceptible to other leather cleaners (reputable brands I mean like gliptone) I honestly don't think it will be! - operative word there being 'think' but surely it can't be...it just won't make any sense.

Too many variables to answer this with a blanket statement Use a high-quality aqueous (water- based) cleaner, formulated without strong solvents and one that has a pH value between 4 and 10 (neither strongly acidic nor strongly alkaline). 

Ok May be that was an unfair question so I'll rephrase it - what type of cleaner are or what attribute must we look for or avoid in cleaning this coating? As you stated PH levels, solvents etc

2 - does the protective coating wear away with time and use? (how many people actually considered this?)

The urethane coating has an abrasive _resistant additive_, but it will not last forever

I know it is abrasive resistant but its life span or more so the fact that is wears away seems to not get mentioned which to me is important because it leads on to question 3 

3 - if the coating does wear away what is the next course of action - do we start cleaning and conditioning as in effect we would end up with bare leather

Cleaning or conditioning will not remedy worn surfaces. They need to be replaced

I was talking about the protective coating being worn not the leather. The leather could be perfectly fine but the coating worn. But you are right in that worn surfaces need replacing so just how do we replace the protective coating?

4 - or is it that this product is able to fully restore the protective coating each time it is used so our leather will never ever need anything else in the long term. (remember this products effectiveness is based upon there being a protective coating (as stipulated by the man himself) so the assumption has to be made that either the coating lasts forever or the product restores the factory coating) Lots of trust has been put into this product by many on here...they at least need to know!

I'll leave this for the product maker to answer, but I have serious doubts on any products ability to do this[/QUOTE]

Exactly so when the protective layer is worn what do we do???...how do we look after the leather then???


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## TOGWT (Oct 26, 2005)

To reiterate all finished leather that is used as automotive upholstery is multi-stratum finish that comprises: a water-based pigmentation and a thin flexible urethane protective coating. Finished leather will eventually wear and fade. Light surface cracks will appear, which causes the leather to look old and deteriorated, but the leather itself is still in good condition. All that is needed to restore the finish is to renew the urethane coating (_See article "Leather Restoration")_


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## Dr Leather (Sep 8, 2010)

nick_mcuk said:


> oh come on darryl lighten up and smile....it was a joke and you did say in umpteen of your posts that this was your last post in the topic and you were ducking out.
> 
> Chill man....enjoy the banter and stop taking things so seriously
> 
> *big hugs*


ok.....


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## Dr Leather (Sep 8, 2010)

TOGWT said:


> To reiterate all finished leather that is used as automotive upholstery is multi-stratum finish that comprises: a water-based pigmentation and a thin flexible urethane protective coating. Finished leather will eventually wear and fade. Light surface cracks will appear, which causes the leather to look old and deteriorated, but the leather itself is still in good condition. All that is needed to restore the finish is to renew the urethane coating (_See article "Leather Restoration")_


Whoa, whoa, whoa!!!!! Careful!!!! It contains some polyurethane binders, but the coating also includes acrylic binders, feel agents, gloss control agents, abrasion resistance auxiliaries, etc. Generally you'll see 6-12 components per mix. So you can't I'm afraid just look at it based on a selected view of polyurethane. In fact there is now a tendency to lean towards acrylic biased top coats as they show increased stain resistance compatibility.

Rgds

Dr Leather


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## TOGWT (Oct 26, 2005)

Dr Leather said:


> Whoa, whoa, whoa!!!!! Careful!!!! It contains some polyurethane binders, but the coating also includes acrylic binders, feel agents, gloss control agents, abrasion resistance auxiliaries, etc. Generally you'll see 6-12 components per mix. So you can't I'm afraid just look at it based on a selected view of polyurethane. In fact there is now a tendency to lean towards acrylic biased top coats as they show increased stain resistance compatibility.
> 
> Rgds
> 
> Dr Leather


Do you have a source for this type of product that could be used for repair / renovations?


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## Dr Leather (Sep 8, 2010)

TOGWT said:


> Do you have a source for this type of product that could be used for repair / renovations?


Yes - we use it already in restoring military spec leathers. 8 products in the formulation.


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## traplin (Feb 22, 2012)

Dr Leather said:


> Yes - we use it already in restoring military spec leathers. 8 products in the formulation.


Is this product available to buy?


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## Dr Leather (Sep 8, 2010)

traplin said:


> Is this product available to buy?


no sorry - in honesty there are too many things in my opinion that can go wrong with amateur application for this very specific mixture. Don't read that to be negative, it's a case that for full technical properties to be achieved you need to prepare and apply the product pretty strictly. Otherwise if not applied/cured correctly then you can get in to trouble.

However...... I am prepared to make a more simplistic version for a small test market. I will look in to this over the next few weeks, but I am concerned that people will try to apply this in the wrong instances of it being required. I will come back to you guys on it.

Rgds

Dr Leather


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## traplin (Feb 22, 2012)

Dr Leather said:


> no sorry - in honesty there are too many things in my opinion that can go wrong with amateur application for this very specific mixture. Don't read that to be negative, it's a case that for full technical properties to be achieved you need to prepare and apply the product pretty strictly. Otherwise if not applied/cured correctly then you can get in to trouble.
> 
> However...... I am prepared to make a more simplistic version for a small test market. I will look in to this over the next few weeks, but I am concerned that people will try to apply this in the wrong instances of it being required. I will come back to you guys on it.
> 
> ...


Certainly interested in this product. I think its a winner if you can make it relatively dummy proof.


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