# Does Anyone actually care about the environment?



## HalfordsShopper

I was just wondering cos i don't really.

All i want is a clean and shiny car - and if that means pouring loads of chemicals down the drain - thats fine by me.

I mean the world is a big place and a few liters of shampoo and degreaser down the drain at the end of my drive won't make much difference in the greater scheme of things - will it?


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## steveo3002

cant say it worrys me too much , while i wont go out my way to pour nastys in the drains etc

think of all the poluters worldwide and england aint gona make jacks worth of differance


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## sxid

Wow! you have opened 1 big mahooosive can of worms  this thread will get nasty quick if recent threads are anything to go by. But I do however agree with you


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## VIPER

Whilst I think the OP could have titled the thread a bit more tactfully (as has been subsequently edited ), at this stage all I'll say is this; debate this subject by all means, but if it descends into a slanging match people responsible will be made aware of it. We're not a bunch of inarticulate idiots on here and so should be able to hold a discussion about this (or anything for that matter) without resorting to insults, swearing and so on.

Normally I wouldn't have felt the necessity to get this posted up, but going on how threads like this have been progressing lately, I just wanted to make that perfectly clear at the outset


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## Gary-360

I'm not a tree hugger or anything, but I believe we must all take "some" responsibility for the future of our planet, even for the sake of our children, children's children etc. I do recycle and do take old oil etc to a proper disposal unit, I'd never put it down a drain. Washing the car's a different issue of course, I'll keep using what I use and it'll probably end up in the sewers.
I don't buy Eco Friendly goods but would consider them if they done the same job at the same price as planet destroying products, such as chemicals.


Gary


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## HalfordsShopper

Pit Viper said:


> the OP could have titled the thread a bit more tactfully


<hangs head in shame> 

being tactful has never been one of my strong points :-(


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## Multipla Mick

I'm no greenie by any means, believe me, but the Environment Agency are getting more active in finding what goes into the rivers and streams, and the effect such pollutants have. Car washing at home is already banned in a couple of European countries I believe, so it wouldn't take much for the EA to back or propose a similar thing here. If sharing a bit of knowledge and testing alternative products that reduce or remove run off going down the storm drains helps reduce the problem then it might not happen. The trouble being, it's the vast majority of the population that need to be reached for that to happen, the membership of DW are just a tiny minority, so even if every single member of DW switched to rinseless washing, steam cleaning or waterless products, it would hardly make a dent in national figures. But, it's a start, and different products/techniques are always relevant and can even save a bit of manual effort and time too judging by the results of ONR and steam cleaning that've been shown on here, so being green can have all sorts of benefits 
Must order myself some ONR, not done that yet :wall: :lol:


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## Gary-360

ONR, what's that then?


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## VIPER

ONR is a great product, Mick, and fulfuls many different roles in various states of dulution - clay lube, QD spray, shampoo.

(Gary) Optimum No Rinse - it's a shampoo that requires no rinsing, hence the name. Also has other functions as I described above.

Some threads on here about it and plenty of video clip demos on the web


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## Brazo

As above I am no tree hugger, although a responsible attitude does need to be taken, what annoys me though is the huge efforts this country goes to for petty, minor dubious green 'wins' when countries like India and China are building coal power stations every other day - yes you can't deny those countries development but eveything Britain does is one big irrelevance!

edit: Also Green Issues have become somewhat confused with TAX issues in this country!!!!!!


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## Multipla Mick

Optimum No Rinse shampoo... seems to work well and hardly any water actually hits the ground let alone goes pouring down the drain (that's the green bit...) and now the bit that also appeals to a lazy ass like me  I've no longer got a PW, just a long, self tangling and kinking hose, and crap water pressure, washing the van is a major exercise and a pain in the bum sometimes, but I like the sound of ONR... no messing about just wash it, without knackering the paint further (it's a swirlfest anyway) and dry it as I go... nice and easy and more conducive to a mellow mood, rather than the default irritable mode at present whenever I wash the van 

Edit - beaten to it by Pit Viper and his Mavis Beaconesque typing skills


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## VIPER

Brazo said:


> As above I am no tree hugger, although a responsible attitude does need to be taken, what annoys me though is the huge efforts this country goes to for petty, minor dubious green 'wins' when countries like India and China are building coal power stations every other day - yes you can't deny those countries development but eveything Britain does is one big irrelevance!
> 
> edit: Also Green Issues have become somewhat confused with TAX issues in this country!!!!!!


Couldn't agree more :thumb: I'm the same, I'll do what I can, when I can, but I really resent being made to feel like a bad or irresponsible person by fanatical environmentalists, when, like you rightly say, polution on such a gargantuan scale is ever increasing on the other side of the world.

You can't help but sometimes feel 'what's the point?' in the grand scheme of things. I know the natural counter argument to that would be - 'well, if everyone thought like that, then we'd be in an even bigger mess'. And that's perfectly true, of course, but it's still how many people feel when they see the news of fossil fuel burning industy growing in developing countries.


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## needhampr

Brazo said:


> As above I am no tree hugger, although a responsible attitude does need to be taken, what annoys me though is the huge efforts this country goes to for petty, minor dubious green 'wins' when countries like India and China are building coal power stations every other day - yes you can't deny those countries development but eveything Britain does is one big irrelevance!
> 
> edit: Also Green Issues have become somewhat confused with TAX issues in this country!!!!!!


Exactly!

I'd also be interested to know who provides funding for websites / marketing / TV and radio campaigns advising me that I should ensure that my tyres are correctly inflated so I get better MPG and produce less emmissions? or, raise my awareness to a website that will inform me of how 'green' the car is I intend to purchase. Even most blue chip companies don't have such deep marketing budgets. I suspect you and I are paying for this high profile gimmicky marketing.

Whilst I wouldn't be so irresponsible to put oil / harmful chemicals down my drain, I definitely don't consider the ingredients in the products I choose and the effect they may / may not have on the environment.


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## Ultrawong

The problem with green issues is that it always seems to be the "little folk" who are asked to contribute the most when the massive multi nationals get away with huge tonnages of pollutants being pumped into every space possible. I do try to do my best with green issues but like everybody else here cost and value for money comes into play. No point spending ten pounds on chemicals that are 20% better for the environment but dont do the job when spending five pounds on "normal" chemicals that will do the job are available. Unfortunately the nature of cleaning almost lends itself to ungreen substances usual designed to combat man made pollutants that do the dirtying.

I also scuba dive and I have to say that in a lot of the Uk's coastal waters, the sealife down there is pretty dire. It's not right that just because we are a small nation, we should automatically say let the bigger countries worry about it. Yes the bigger countries should commit to greener practises but we do all have a role to play. If only our government would pull its finger out and make it easier to do things like recycle. For Example our local councils have recycling bins for each household. So I put everything in it that can be recycled. The last time I put the R Bin out they took the cans and plastics but left all my "free local papers (that I never read)" on the drive blowing in the wind!!!

Sorry for the rant guys. My stance.....I do my bit but we can all try harder probably.


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## -ROM-

> I'll say is this; debate this subject by all means, but if it descends into a slanging match people responsible will be made aware of it. We're not a bunch of inarticulate idiots on here and so should be able to hold a discussion about this (or anything for that matter) without resorting to insults, swearing and so on.


Bloody well said.

As for the OP's question. I can't say i go to great lengths however if more manufacturers provide more eco-friendly products i will do my bit by buying them in favour of less eco-friendly offerings.


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## Neil_S

Brazo said:


> As above I am no tree hugger, although a responsible attitude does need to be taken, what annoys me though is the huge efforts this country goes to for petty, minor dubious green 'wins' when countries like India and China are building coal power stations every other day - yes you can't deny those countries development but eveything Britain does is one big irrelevance!
> 
> edit: Also Green Issues have become somewhat confused with TAX issues in this country!!!!!!


Ah but China may be saving us by building all those coal powerstations...

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/04/09/arctic_aerosols_goddard_institute/

New research from NASA suggests that the Arctic warming trend seen in recent decades has indeed resulted from human activities: but not, as is widely assumed at present, those leading to carbon dioxide emissions. Rather, Arctic warming has been caused in large part by laws introduced to improve air quality and fight acid rain.

Sulfates, which come primarily from the burning of coal and oil, scatter incoming solar radiation and have a net cooling effect on climate. Over the past three decades, the United States and European countries have passed a series of laws that have reduced sulfate emissions by 50 percent. While improving air quality and aiding public health, the result has been less atmospheric cooling from sulfates.

:wave:


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## Mirror Finish Details

I'm sitting on the fence.

I'll get my coat!!!!!!!


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## Buck

For me it's about doing what feels right - preaching at people isn't going to work. I don't drive a Toyota Prius but I do recycle as much as I can, use eco friendly stuff at home i.e. Ecover but then I am aware that some of the car cleaning stuff I use is not so environmentally friendly.

Bottom line is that we should do the things that don't take much effort such as recycling but as has been said, the bigger things such as power generation need bigger thinking and governments to lead.

Taxing the less green stuff like with the road tax based on emmissions is just a cover for generating more tax income and doesn't work IMHO


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## M4D YN

HalfordsShopper said:


> I was just wondering cos i don't really.
> 
> All i want is a clean and shiny car - and if that means pouring loads of chemicals down the drain - thats fine by me.
> 
> I mean the world is a big place and a few liters of shampoo and degreaser down the drain at the end of my drive won't make much difference in the greater scheme of things - will it?


your such a  you know what,you should be banned with the stinking attitude you have,its not the first time i.v read crap coming out of your mouth and dw doesn't need it


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## -ROM-

M4D YN said:


> your such a DI*K


See below...



Pit Viper said:


> Whilst I think the OP could have titled the thread a bit more tactfully, at this stage all I'll say is this; *debate this subject by all means, but if it descends into a slanging match people responsible will be made aware of it. We're not a bunch of inarticulate idiots on here and so should be able to hold a discussion about this (or anything for that matter) without resorting to insults, swearing and so on.*
> 
> Normally I wouldn't have felt the necessity to get this posted up, but going on how threads like this have been progressing lately, I just wanted to make that perfectly clear at the outset


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## Mirror Finish Details

Well I do, as a family we are not tree huggers. We do run a SUV but that is for towing mainly. I in my busines use mainly PH natural products and been using a lot more steam recently. I can clean any wheel with my steemer with a few litres of water rather than loads of water and chemicals.

We recycle as much as we can and composting stuff, I even cycle to the local shop nowerdays and feel better for it.

We do have our kids future to think of.


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## sxid

don't spoil this thread by start calling each other names for crying out loud, just accept that different people have their own opinions. What is it with people recently..


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## M4D YN

rmorgan84 said:


> See below...


this guy need dealt with,look at the flannel he put on here and it was like that from the start :wall::wall::wall::wall::wall::wall::wall::wall: sick of him and his total ignorance


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## M4D YN

sxid said:


> don't spoil this thread by start calling each other names for crying out loud, just accept that different people have their own opinions. What is it with people recently..


its not getting spoiled,but did you miss was the OP said or what?????


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## -ROM-

M4D YN said:


> this guy need dealt with,look at the flannel he put on here and it was like that from the start :wall::wall::wall::wall::wall::wall::wall::wall::wall: sick of him and his total ignorance


Fair enough but as Pit viper said express that with a little more tact and you'll get your point across to the powers that be with far greater effect:thumb:


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## alan_mcc

M4D YN said:


> your such a DI*K  you know what,you should be banned with the stinking attitude you have,its not the first time i.v read crap coming out of your whole


Scott, while i think you could have worded that better - i agree.

And i'm not making a personal attack at you HalfordsShopper, however it's a pretty rubbish attitude to have towards the environment - if the government [or whoever] starts to take a very serious look at car cleaning chemicals going into the sewers etc we might not have the ability to clean our cars ourselves at some point in our lives..


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## sxid

M4D YN said:


> its not getting spoiled,but did you miss was the OP said or what?????


I agree the thread title is innapropriate. Doesent't make it better by starting insulting people by calling them swear words however.:wall:

because snow foam etc is PH neutral that doesent mean its completely free from nasty chemicals that could be harmful when let run into drains etc does it>?


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## M4D YN

rmorgan84 said:


> Fair enough but as Pit viper said express that with a little more tact and you'll get your point across to the powers that be with far greater effect:thumb:


i get his point and yours as well mate,but this guy has no respect and it should be dealt with accordingly,as the same for any other clown that has no regards for the environment or the stupid way of posting a whole load of trash,the mods can ban me,but if they do,its up to them having that power and will know whos in the wrong at the end of the day and its not ME,I'm not wanting to read trash like this or any of my mates that i get joining the forum to read this garbage,then they just get the wrong impression and think DW is a joke


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## -ROM-

M4D YN said:


> i get his point and your as well mate,but this guy has no respect and it should be dealt with accordingly,as the same for any other clown that has no regards for the environment or the stupid way of posting a whole load of trash,the mods can ban me,but if they do,its there loss and at the end of the day,I'm not wanting to read trash like this or any of my mates that i get joining the forum to read this garbage,then they just get the wrong impression


yeah i understand your point mate, i've just look at the guys post history of threads he started and most of it is crap.

Just convey that a bit more tactfully, if you stoop to his level then you're just providing him with a smoke screen when the mods have to clean the thread up in the morning!


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## M4D YN

the guys got issues i tell use,get rid of rubbish i say
http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=107131


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## caledonia

sxid said:


> I agree the thread title is innapropriate. Doesent't make it better by starting insulting people by calling them swear words however.:wall:
> 
> because snow foam etc is PH neutral that doesent mean its completely free from nasty chemicals that could be harmful when let run into drains etc does it>?


Just because something has a PH of neutral does not make it save.
Its all the chemicals within these products,but not all. But there are other contaminates that gets washed of your car. That enters the storm drains. This is where most of the issues lye.

This is where ONR come in, as there is no run off produced.


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## M4D YN

sxid said:


> I agree the thread title is innapropriate. Doesent't make it better by starting insulting people by calling them swear words however.:wall:
> 
> because snow foam etc is PH neutral that doesent mean its completely free from nasty chemicals that could be harmful when let run into drains etc does it>?


go away


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## sxid

Is there anything in particular that is bad(in terms of harmfullness to the enviroment if washed down the drain -_ ingredients wise_) so that when looking into products etc this can be taken into consideration when people look at SF / Shampoo etc?


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## sxid

M4D YN said:


> go away


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## M4D YN

any product or manufacturer has to have safety data sheets on request

that will tell you,so you don't need to listen to any potential lies from anyone


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## caledonia

All depends on where you live and if you are a company or just an enthusiast.
There are different laws for different regions.
Gordon.


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## caddyman

To be honest i don't really care what does and what doesn't go down a drain

By the time it does harm to the world i won't be here i'll be nicely rotting away underground surrounded by contaminated soapy well foamed soil

one hell of a lot of Vehicles leak oil everyday which is spilled onto the nation's roads then the rain comes and washes it all away down the drains!!

so to me a little snow foam or shampoo or the contents of george's wet vac guts down the drain at the bottom of my drive doesn't really raise an eyebrow on my head

That's my honest feeling


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## M4D YN

caddyman said:


> To be honest i don't really care what does and what doesn't go down a drain
> 
> By the time it does harm to the world i won't be here i'll be nicely rotting away underground surrounded by contaminated soapy well foamed soil
> 
> one hell of a lot of Vehicles leak oil everyday which is spilled onto the nation's roads then the rain comes and washes it all away down the drains!!
> 
> so to me a little snow foam or shampoo or the contents of george's wet vac guts down the drain at the bottom of my drive doesn't really raise an eyebrow on my head
> 
> That's my honest feeling


you have a slight point in that it wont affect you,as you'll be dead,but you should care about whats happening to your younger family that's left behind or your fellow man

maybe it just this new generation that doesn't give a dam eh


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## alan_mcc

caddyman said:


> By the time it does harm to the world i won't be here i'll be nicely rotting away underground surrounded by contaminated soapy well foamed soil


yeah well it's all very well for you but what about your next generation?

as in, me? i'm 15 and have my whole life ahead of me and would rather not spend a few hours of it sitting in an automatic car wash.


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## caddyman

alan_mcc said:


> yeah well it's all very well for you but what about your next generation?
> 
> as in, me? i'm 15 and have my whole life ahead of me and would rather not spend a few hours of it sitting in an automatic car wash.


I don't sit in an automatic car wash i wash my vehicles on my drive at home

Look at the end of the day we are not the worst polluters in the world look at China!!

Maybe we should all pump our crap into buckets and transport it to london and pour it into the gutter that's called the houses of parliament


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## alan_mcc

caddyman said:


> I don't sit in an automatic car wash i wash my vehicles on my drive at home


Either do i, but if the government decides to take action [like some countries already have!] then thats all i'll be able to do.


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## parish

M4D YN said:


> you have a slight point in that it wont affect you,as you'll be dead,but you should care about whats happening to your younger family that's left behind or your fellow man
> 
> maybe it just this new generation that doesn't give a dam eh





alan_mcc said:


> yeah well it's all very well for you but what about your next generation?
> 
> as in, me? i'm 15 and have my whole life ahead of me and would rather not spend a few hours of it sitting in an automatic car wash.


Err so aren't we the next generation of our parents and the the future generation of our grand- and great-grand-parents? Are we suffering because they didn't give a fig about the environment because Global Warming hadn't been invented in their day?

I'm not suffering. When I was at school in the '60s and '70s the scientists were saying that we were heading for another Ice Age; now they've done a complete 180. They were wrong then, so why should we believe that they are right now? Because Greenpiss and Fiends of the Earth say so on their websites?


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## caledonia

alan_mcc said:


> Either do i, but if the government decides to take action [like some countries already have!] then thats all i'll be able to do.


Yes agreed.
That is the reason for trying out different ways like water smart, waterless and ONR. there are still options available. Just up to the individual if they wish to try these.

I am not say that the motorist is not been made a scape goat. But as already mentioned it is law in a good few countries already. And like the good sheep the government will follow suit. Sooner rather than later.
Gordon


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## alan_mcc

parish said:


> I'm not suffering. When I was at school in the '60s and '70s the scientists were saying that we were heading for another Ice Age; now they've done a complete 180. They were wrong then, so why should we believe that they are right now? Because Greenpiss and Fiends of the Earth say so on their websites?


No you're not suffering, and it is true - the scientists should have "left well alone".

i actually don't know what to say - i stand corrected, however i hope the government doesn't follow the same path as other governments have and ban car washing - there are a few more important things in the UK to worry about than that for now.


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## Guest

parish said:


> Because Greenpiss and Fiends of the Earth say so on their websites?


:lol::lol:


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## Guest

To add something constructive: I think the problem that most have, is that despite what the gov. statistics indicate, a lot of environmental damage is coming from the commercial and industrial sector. When you look at how many gallons of water the water companies loose a day (i.e., about 50% of it all), it is tempting for you to take the "well if they are losing billions of gallons, why should a few litres here matter?"


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## Relaited

Anyone wanting to pursue a Water Smart Eco Detailing model ... all you have to do is email this thread to the Regulators ... it will make your point.

I copy regulators on threads like this to help them understand what the "professionals" are thinking.

I also point out, that here on DW, has anyone else looked at the amount of views the Eco Detailing Forum receives?

From a business decision point of view, I think that is why the owners accept this level of "rubbish".

In my opinion.

-jim


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## *Dan*

As long as my cars nice and clean..... Nope


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## Needs a clean

Does anyone actually give a sh1t about the environment???? This has to be one of the most stupid things i have ever heard? And posting it in the Eco-friendly section!!?? Of course people give a sh1t about the environment. Why would you not? Because its "not your problem" or "someone else will sort it out"? Poor excuse. I have a 6 year old son, who i would like to think will live to a ripe old age so that he will be able to see his son and indeed grand children, and if i dont not attempt to take care of our environment to try and give my family a better chance in life, who will? I am aware that there are a few people who could not care less about what goes down the drains, and the best of luck to them, but to ask if anyone actually cares about the environment? 

I am not a tree hugger or anything like that, but i do try and do my bit by recycling what i can, turning the taps off when brushing my teeth etc etc.

Each and every one to their own, but i think that you really need to think prior to posting in the future bud.


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## nick_mcuk

TBH I dont really think about it...now I wont go out of my way to chuck loads of **** into the drains or cause harm to wildlife....but dear lord I have more important things to worry about than huggging a load of trees.]]

As for recycling...given up on that since they have so much of the stuff they are now just storing it....which completely defeats the object!

As for us being all green what about so of the other countrys.....like China, Japan, and the 3rd world places....bet they dont give a hoot about pollution....so what good is it if 80% of the world does but the remaining 20% produce more and more???

As for this carbon friendly crap and carbon trading.....dont get me started!


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## HalfordsShopper

Hmm so it seams quite a few people on here care a lot about the environment.

I was just trying to ascertain, if all the people on here who give lip service to being green actually do anything about it. I mean do you all really collect all your rinse water, and have it taken away to be treated?

Okay, i have admitted that i knowingly damage the environment to get a clean and shiny car. Lets be honest now, can all those people who seem to be outraged by this thread claim that they take all necessary precautions to make sure their detailing has zero environmental impact.

It seems to me that unless you collect your rinse water, and any chemicals used on your car, and have them taken away to be treated, then the only difference between you and me is honesty.

I am a polluter, yes fair enough i admit to that. But at least I'm not a hypocritical polluter - are you?


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## Brazo

If I had been on at 1am last night lets just say a few people would be in the sin bin:wave:

Lets stick to the thread title which I have now chmaged to something more appropriate!

Thanking you


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## The Cueball

Brazo said:


> As above I am no tree hugger, although a responsible attitude does need to be taken, what annoys me though is the huge efforts this country goes to for petty, minor dubious green 'wins' when countries like India and China are building coal power stations every other day - yes you can't deny those countries development but eveything Britain does is one big irrelevance!
> 
> edit: Also Green Issues have become somewhat confused with TAX issues in this country!!!!!!


Agreed!!

I think that there are far too many "do gooders" in this country spouting rubbish about saving the planet when, if they took a step back and looked at the big picture will realise that our tiny little island CANNOT change the world... but it's ok because we are getting taxed for it....

Let be honest about it, if and when the world get destroyed / or she starts really fighting back (could be 5 years, could be 50), do you really think that she will leave the UK alone because we pay more tax for green stuff... or pay for our carrier bags?!?!?!

No way.... we will be cast aside like everyone else...although we will have the moral high ground when we all get to heaven/hell/playboy mansion (or where ever you think you are going)

Another way to think about it, is that I pay a fortune for fuel and tax to use my car....whoooo more green tax...so I will trade it in for a push bike, GREAT!!! but my boss in the USA still uses a 8 litre SUV to drop his kids off to school every day......so what is the point!!

I respect everyones point of view...and each person obviously has one, but maybe a few last questions:

What is the real point of saving this planet for future generations when we are already at the point of OAP's being killed in their home, 11 year olds killing each other, Adults shooting and stabbing each other over nothing, Immigrants breaking the law in this country and being sent to our jails rather than sent home, the UK being taxed into just being able to survive....jeez just watch Jeremy bleeding Kyle - that is where the UK is heading!!!!!!

A world that puts mindless, talentless "celebrities" on a pedestal, rather than the real stars of the world - the nurses, firemen, police, etc etc....is it really worth saving?!?!?!

Has anyone stopped to think that perhaps the world would be better off without humans, or are we just doing what is better for us (and not the world), that is REALLY selfish???

:thumb:


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## steveo3002

what really grinds my gears (peter griffin voice)

shops charging 10 p for a the carrier bags and being ar5ey about giving you a bag when youve spent loads , yet the heating is on full whack and the doors wide open..or same with a/c and the doors open in summer

and then all the shop lights are left on overnight , elec shops leave the tellys on etc

yet a freakin carrier bag will save the world


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## Brazo

I agree paying for a carrier bag will not save the world, scrapping them altogether will however help!

Its heartbreaking to see sea creatures dying, strangled by carrier bags. I do make a choice to use boxes when at tescos as they can be reused to store stuff in, in the loft:thumb:


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## VIPER

Hmm, interesting reading how this thread developed after I'd logged off last night - seems my pre-emptive post fell on deaf ears for some!


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## keyd

The Cueball said:


> What is the real point of saving this planet for future generations when we are already at the point of OAP's being killed in their home, 11 year olds killing each other, Adults shooting and stabbing each other over nothing, Immigrants breaking the law in this country and being sent to our jails rather than sent home, the UK being taxed into just being able to survive....jeez just watch Jeremy bleeding Kyle - that is where the UK is heading!!!!!!


The above is the best point made in this entire thread so far. We can collect rain water to rinse our cars, we can collect that same rinse water and have it treated so it is no longer a problem. We can even go waterless with our car washing but what use is saving a world where everyone is killing each other for just looking in their direction?

Personally I don't worry about the effect washing my car has on the environment - I drive a car it will pollute the environment far more than washing it will.
However I do recycle as much as possible and I do turn electric equipment off as much as possible. I also drive as economically as I can manage but there is only so far one person can go without impacting their lifestyle.


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## Bigpikle

Guys, just remember that should you ever come across a poster here who's posts just seem to be an endless stream of childish dribble, or maybe that you just find ignorant and something of an annoyance, that you go to your CP and add them to your 'Ignore List' and that way they're posts are blanked out in future and you don't have to see them JY

Just my top tip for the week, and sorry to take this off topic. Perhaps we can get back to this amazing ly worthwhile thread now...


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## Relaited

Honestly, yes I do collect all the contaminants and take them to a process than can properly handle the waste.

I am not perfect, and I am trying to demonstrate continuous improvement. I am trying to improve recycling, and always trying to improve how I handle my micro fiber towels.

I didn’t necessarily do it from a tree hugging perspective, although I am in a Beach City, and when it rains, my friends can't surf. Best waves, but it is polluted from run off. And I have 2 little kids, so I am doing my best for their future. I think past generations have done some of this and cleaned up local water, there is room for improvement and there are some success stories.

I do it as the best business decision I can make. Honestly, here is what I believe, and I have the facts to prove it

* Regulators are increasing standards and code enforcement
* A Water $mart Eco Detailing model is the lowest cost of entry and lowest capital expense to fund growth
* A Water $mart Eco Detailing model is the lowest cost to be compliant with current and future regulations
* Property owners and Managers will only accept a Water $mart Eco Detailing Platform
* Property Owners and Managers are requiring existing Detailers to change their model, or be removed
* I think I can get all these properties at a very high percentage. Right now I am closing over 75% of my proposals. Most don't even have a competitor, the others I loose on relationships, but am always told that if this does not work out, going to give the guy I have known for 15 years the chance to change ... you are in.
* I think, with all the drought and run off phobia of fines and increasing costs ... I can go to the Homeowner's Associations of exclusive & luxury gated communities and gain exclusivity ... meaning the competition will be turned away at the gate. 

Just as an example. I think this model is a Blue Ocean strategy. Red Oceans are where there is blood in the water from competition. Blue Oceans are where you can render your competition irrelevant! Trust me, most of the high energy posts here are irrelevant to a Water Smart Eco Detailing model.

Bottom line, I think this model is a disruptive technology ... this changes the game.

4 years ago, everyone in the US, except a handful, sounds just like this thread.

I get accused of preaching, but I know it is predicting. I predict Damon and Gordon, 4 years from now, will be at the top of the Industry. Still many will nip at their heals, yet most will seek their advice to replicate their success.

Heard it here first!

-jim

I can accelerate growth of


----------



## HalfordsShopper

Bigpikle said:


> Guys, just remember that should you ever come across a poster here who's posts just seem to be an endless stream of childish dribble, or maybe that you just find ignorant and something of an annoyance, that you go to your CP and add them to your 'Ignore List' and that way they're posts are blanked out in future and you don't have to see them JY
> 
> Just my top tip for the week, and sorry to take this off topic. Perhaps we can get back to this amazing ly worthwhile thread now...


Great tip that, thanks. :thumb: Bye bye bigpikle. :wave: :lol:


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## ianFRST

i recycle all my plastics, and food, and grass cuttings  

that'll be enough for me :lol: (not that any of my products go down a drain)


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## HermaN

I'll take stuff like used engine oil to be disposed properly and if there's a recycling bin next to a normal bin id be more inclined to use the recycling one, but im not going to go out my way to find one.

As for cleaning my car, as long as it's clean, im happy with how clean it is and whatever im using doesn't damage the paint, then I dont really care.


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## AndyC

Do I care about the environment? Absolutely - as much for my kids as anything.

Am I "green"? As far as I can be, yes. We have a green bin which we use religiously, we take garden waste to the tip and put it in the proper recycling bin (most of the time) and we try to do our bit.

We've recently started growing vegetables - healthy for the family, educational for the kids (they can see where carrots come from etc.) and saves driving to the shop if we run out.

BUT I drive over 40k a year in a car which despite modern technology is still polluting. I have an older car which is even worse (although it does below 3k each year). I work with an industry which focuses on older and more polluting road & race cars.

In the scheme of things, green detailing honestly ranks pretty low on my schedule but I've cut down on how much the cars are washed :doublesho I know, I know, but washing the cars fortnightly has to cut down on water usage significantly - so the Saab looks pretty sh1te but ther Clio's hiding the grime pretty well; the Pug only gets washed when needed anyway so I figure I've both cut back on water use and gained valuable time with my kids to boot :thumb:


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## PJS

Andy, please define "polluting" in the context of your cars, and whom you work for.
Not looking an argument, just interested why you've chosen to use the word and why you believe it is an accurate choice.


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## AndyC

PJS said:


> Andy, please define "polluting" in the context of your cars, and whom you work for.
> Not looking an argument, just interested why you've chosen to use the word and why you believe it is an accurate choice.


The number of miles I drive and level of CO2 the car churns out - my rationale was that I "pollute" around 3 x more than my Father for example whose car produces much the same level of CO2 and he drives around 15k a year.

My business is arranging insurance for companies who restore and prepare classic cars - most of which are not one would define as "green".

Not scientific I know and frankly I'd love to reduce my mileage as I don't enjoy driving for work as much as I used to and I figure that my carbon footprint at present is probably pretty high compared with some one driving fewer miles.


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## MarkH

I personally believe that global warming is a load of tosh and governments are jumping on it, so they can increase taxes and have excuses to control the population, but I could be wrong!

Because I could be wrong I am willing to adapt my behaviour as the consequences of sticking my head in the sand are too great!


----------



## PJS

AndyC said:


> The number of miles I drive and level of CO2 the car churns out - my rationale was that I "pollute" around 3 x more than my Father for example whose car produces much the same level of CO2 and he drives around 15k a year.
> 
> My business is arranging insurance for companies who restore and prepare classic cars - most of which are not one would define as "green".
> 
> Not scientific I know and frankly I'd love to reduce my mileage as I don't enjoy driving for work as much as I used to and I figure that my carbon footprint at present is probably pretty high compared with some one driving fewer miles.


I feared Andy that you'd slid into the propagandised mire of carbon this, that, and the other.
If it eases your conscious, there's no correlation to CO2 levels and global warmth increases - it's as I said, propaganda to manipulate governments to keep the money flowing to the "scientists" sitting in front of computer screens, plucking numbers out of thin air to demonstrate how bad the problem is going to become, and those same governments then deciding we need to pay higher taxes to stave off the impending doom.

Quite what happens when the temperatures plummet and we get more of the same, if not worse, cold weather that appeared not so long ago in the forthcoming years/decade, will be worth watching, as no doubt it'll somehow get spun into being too high a CO2 level as well.
The fact it's a natural variable time-frame cycle won't be something you read about in "official" documents.

So, by all means drive less if you're enjoying it less, but don't because you feel somewhat guilty about putting out plant food!
Just keep in the back of you mind, it's all a load of fking bks, designed to fleece you of your hard earned, and control you!


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## Brazo

PJS said:


> If it eases your conscious, there's no correlation to CO2 levels and global warmth increases -


I'm pretty much the same opinion as you PJS but would appreciate any credible links to support that as theres a few people I would like to send them to!!!


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## m33porsche

Brazo said:


> I'm pretty much the same opinion as you PJS but would appreciate any credible links to support that as theres a few people I would like to send them to!!!


I'd second that - lets the the references, BTW, they need to be credible, Scientific American, Nature etc, not Hello Magazine...

Most recent evidence uses ice cores to analyse the content of the atmosphere going back for thousands of years. As ice freezes it captures the content of the atmosphere, the structure in which it freezes is detrmined by temperature - what a unique history

There are indeed natural cycles, +/- 10% but recently CO2 levels are up by an order of magnitude, off the scale. Follow the temperature plot and the correlation over the last 300+ years is a mirror image. You don't need to work out the correlation to see that both both are varying in harmony with CO2 being the most likely causal factor.

However, my interest in this point is not global warming - it's car washing. As Multipla Mick said earlier if we don't clean up than legislation will do it for us. This means no domestic car washing - for all on here that should be a real worry....:thumb:


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## north007

euthanasia would that help i can think of a few that i would put forward especially the ******** who uses there door as a battering ram on my car


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## north007

euthanasia would that help recycling, i can think of a few that i would put forward especially the ******** who uses there door as a battering ram on my car:wall::wall::wall::wall::wall::wall:


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## AndyC

Unless I've missed something here is there any *actual* legislation, exisiting or planned/proposed which is likely to stop domestic car washing in the immediate future? As opposed to hosepipe bans and the like. Or is this as much "hype" as the whole CO2 thing, apparently.


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## spitfire

I recycle and don't drop litter, but when I drive around and see all the litter lying around in the vacant gounds and planted areas around Glasgow it makes me wonder if it's the slightest bit worth it. also has anyone on here ever heard of anyone being fined for fly tipping cause the situation seems to be getting worse instead of better.


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## Neil_S

Brazo said:


> I'm pretty much the same opinion as you PJS but would appreciate any credible links to support that as theres a few people I would like to send them to!!!


This is a good one...

http://www.dailytech.com/Temperature+Monitors+Report+Widescale+Global+Cooling/article10866.htm

A couple of quotes...

All four major global temperature tracking outlets (Hadley, NASA's GISS, UAH, RSS) have released updated data. All show that over the past year, global temperatures have dropped precipitously.

The total amount of cooling ranges from 0.65C up to 0.75C -- a value large enough to wipe out most of the warming recorded over the past 100 years.


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## OCDMike

HalfordsShopper said:


> I was just wondering cos i don't really.
> 
> All i want is a clean and shiny car - and if that means pouring loads of chemicals down the drain - thats fine by me.
> 
> I mean the world is a big place and a few liters of shampoo and degreaser down the drain at the end of my drive won't make much difference in the greater scheme of things - will it?


Sorry, i'm going to be a lazy bugger here and not read any replies, because i dont have time, but i want to reply to the OP question. (sorry if anything has already been said, but this is my POV)

It's easy to be ignorant, and i probably am.

The water we drink comes from the same place these chemicals end up, so i do think its bad to be polluting if it can be avoided.

its easy to say, i dont make a difference, bcos i'm one person, but how many people think that way?

If everyone dropped a crisp packet every week, what effect would that have?

Just because we cannot see the damage we're doing, doesn't mean we should think its not a problem.

I'll be honest and say i'm guilty of doing it, but that i do feel guilty about it.

I do try to redeem myself in other ways, switching things off around the home, recycling, walking rather than driving etc.


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## spitfire

Neil_S said:


> This is a good one...
> 
> http://www.dailytech.com/Temperature+Monitors+Report+Widescale+Global+Cooling/article10866.htm
> 
> A couple of quotes...
> 
> All four major global temperature tracking outlets (Hadley, NASA's GISS, UAH, RSS) have released updated data. All show that over the past year, global temperatures have dropped precipitously.
> 
> The total amount of cooling ranges from 0.65C up to 0.75C -- a value large enough to wipe out most of the warming recorded over the past 100 years.


0.75c :doublesho:doublesho:doubleshoWe'll need to start worrying about global cooling now then


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## Brazo

Neil_S said:


> This is a good one...
> 
> http://www.dailytech.com/Temperature+Monitors+Report+Widescale+Global+Cooling/article10866.htm
> 
> A couple of quotes...
> 
> All four major global temperature tracking outlets (Hadley, NASA's GISS, UAH, RSS) have released updated data. All show that over the past year, global temperatures have dropped precipitously.
> 
> The total amount of cooling ranges from 0.65C up to 0.75C -- a value large enough to wipe out most of the warming recorded over the past 100 years.


Ah but haven't the greenies changed tact and now just say climate change rather than warming? That way we can still be taxed:thumb:

But to be fair are we not experiencing climate chmage such as melting of the ice caps, increased weather phenomononononon - tell me when to stop


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## spitfire

Brazo said:


> Ah but haven't the greenies changed tact and now just say climate change rather than warming? That way we can still be taxed:thumb:
> 
> *But to be fair are we not experiencing climate chmage such as melting of the ice caps*, increased weather phenomononononon - tell me when to stop


maybe so but the earth will always have variations as it has in the past and no tax or worrying about it will make the slightest bit of difference to what it decides to do in the future.


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## Relaited

Honestly, not exactly sure where I fall on that topic, trying to stay reasonable and in the middle.

However ... I do believe humans have some accountability, and have some impact and influence on the environment. Aren't there some acceptable facts that bear that out without having to subscribe to a greater conspiracy theory?

I have seen the impact on water ways by humans ... looks like with corrected behavior and clean up efforts, that is reversible.

What about the effects of deforestation? Is that in dispute?

Is depleting of the ozone natural, and not influenced by us?

I am not sure I accept the blanket dismissal of all efforts as unnecessary, and trying to wrestle with what adverse impact humans have.

Nothing devious, just introspective. I dismiss those that characterize all behavior as impacting global warming, recognize "natural" trends, and dismiss arguments on the other side, claiming no human impact at all 

-jim


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## Multipla Mick

I don't think there's any legislation, proposed or pending, regarding private car washing directly, all I could find after hunting around the DEFRA site looking at consultation documents was this reference buried in a 76 page strategy document from 2002...

Urban diffuse pollution
4.22. The main sources of water pollution
from the urban environment are transport
and on-street activities, such as car washing
and maintenance, park and landscape
maintenance and industrial activities.

http://www.defra.gov.uk/environment/water/strategy/pdf/directing_the_flow.pdf

There are far bigger concerns regarding the polluting of waterways and what goes down storm drains etc, than car washing to be honest. But car washing on the roadside is banned in Germany (not sure on what grounds but presumably it's to do with the drains) and car washing is even banned on a Sunday in certain areas :doublesho Don't think we need worry too much about that one though... at least, I hope not  I'm sure someone on here said it is also banned on the street in Spain, but not 100% on that.
I also don't know how they could determine the levels of pollution that home car washing produces, whether they've got equipment that can identify the ingredients of Megs Wheel Brightener say (other than the smell or colour ) in a stream for example, as the quantity used isn't great and will be massively diluted by the time it's in a stream. Oil residue is another matter, they can trace that back to individual drains judging by what has been in the local papers over the years. But, the cleaning up of the waterways and localised environment protection is as hot a topic almost as globalclimatechangewarming, and some all encompassing legislation could be a possibility at some point in the future. The worry is when DEFRA and the Environment Agency go comparing what they're doing with how they do it in other European countries perhaps, and our politicians seem to like picking up on what the Germans get up to, whether it's guaranteed trade in prices for old knockers, noise limits, type approval and BHP limits for motorcycles (thankfully prevented...) or environmental stuff. 
As it is, it appears that the pros should be recovering their waste water already, as wheelie bin cleaners have to, so the powers that be obviously think car washing is a problem to a degree, but they obviously think trade chemicals are a lot worse than the stuff the average car owner will use at home, and they're right probably. The majority of car owners who wash at home probably have just a bucket, sponge, and a bottle of wash n wax in their armoury. We'd best start making the product collections section password protected or something 
A ban on car washing at home might not be an immediate issue, but it's something that should be borne in mind I would think, and if manufacturers produce more environmentally friendly products, and people start using them, then it would take away the ammunition the EA would have to propose such a thing.

Muddled rambling over...


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## organgrinder

Like many of those posting above, I want to do everything I can to help the environment but I do not believe that every aspect of my life has to be controlled to achieve this.

I recycle, I turn off lights, I don't drive if I don't have to and I try not to waste anything.

However, when someone tells me that my two capfulls of Duragloss 901 a week is going to impact on the environment I think things have gone too far.

My wife does 3 or 4 washes a week and the dishwasher is on at least the same number of times, if not more. How much more damaging is the amount of washing powder etc that we use every week than my 2 capfulls of 901?

Given the number of filthy cars I see every day and the response of some of my friends to the fact that I wash my car every week, I would propose that the impact of all the nations car washing activities could probably be countered (and more) by one less dish wash or clothes wash a week by every household.

In fact my brother (and I have only just remembered this) puts his dishwasher on every night even though it only has a few dishes in it - this surely has a much greater detrimental impact than a simple car wash.

Another idea thought up by Politicians with an anti car agenda.


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## nogrille

to anyone that doesn't care - you are numpties.


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## Multipla Mick

The way I see it, and as said, I'm no greenie, there are two issues running side by side when comes to the environment. One is the global impact and the Penguins apparently being made homeless by the evil motor car and the TV left on standby, and the other is the local issue, which is where car washing comes in, along with household waste disposal and stuff. 
If I understand Bigpikle right, a dish washer or washing machine will drain into the sewerage system and the water treated and recycled. Car washing run off will go into the storm water drains and straight into the nearest stream or river, or the sea. That, or it will soak into the ground. I can't imagine car wash residue soaking into the ground is much of a problem mind, compared to what farmers spread on fields and stuff at any rate.


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## Glasgow_Gio

nogrille said:


> to anyone that doesn't care - you are numpties.


Are you deliberately trying to get a reaction? I suggest you edit your post.


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## Bigpikle

Guys - to be frank, I think this whole thread is pretty pointless.

Luckily I have come across very few people who really dont care, and would chuck used engine oil down a drain or in a field etc (but they certainly still exist :wall and most people are sensible enough to take obvious measures, if only as it usually saves £ as well as any other impact eg lights off etc etc.

I do get very frustrated by the entire "they dont do it so why should I" argument, and the next step on "country X pollute so I can as well", as the logic there is crazy. I remember losing those arguments with my parents when I was 5 years old, claiming that little Fred over the street threw stones so I did as well 

This section is for those people who WANT to look for ways and means to reduce their impact on the environment while detailing. What people often seem to miss here is that there are plenty of ways we can continue to detail cars to the standards we choose to AND reduce our impact. The entire idea is not mutually exclusive. Its not either/or, and many of the contributions to this section have highlighted some great ways to do that.

I also believe sooner or later the nanny state will legislate us into a corner and we will have to change. One reason we see so much legislation is because often it is the ONLY way to get some people to change. The classic is the 'pay for rubbish collection' schemes currently being waved about. If people would change habits and recycle more then there would be no need to tax people to throw waste in a landfill. It'll happen to car washing at some point I have no doubt


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## Relaited

Mick,

Most Regulators are not as much concerned with the soap or product used as they are with the contaminants coming off the car itself ... from what I know.

-jim


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## Mattieuk

A couple of years back I was asked at work if we could have a charity car wash on site. At the time I was the Environmental Officer for the site, so I rang the EA and Seven Trent to get permission (Trade Effluent Consent) to use the surface water drains for this purpose, forwarding all the COSHH sheets for the stuff the guy's were going to use, number of car's to be washed and the cubic meter volume of water we expected to dispose down the drain.

Basically they said no to us doing the charity car wash because we couldn't guarantee what contaminants were coming off the car's into the drain. The only way we could have done it was to somehow hold the contaminated water and then have it collected by a licensed waste carrier.

The guy I spoke to at Seven Trent did mention one of the biggest issues they had at the time was that of car washers popping up in pub car parks and a like, as they didn't have a clue what they were putting down the drain until some stream or waterway gets contaminated.


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## AndyC

Good example Mattie.

I still don't "get" how the EA differentiate between this sort of risk and that of runoff from roads. Surely when washing a car you're removing relatively normal contaminants such as dirt, mud, bug splatter (I'm thinking usual level of washing here, rather than OCD level removal) and I can't make the connection with this sort of soiling getting into storm drains as surely it does anyway??

If you're in a remotely rural area then I'd expect that this sort of debris could and does enter the system somehow. I can understand EA concerns over uncontrolled commercial washing activities such as pub & supermarket carparks but is that not coming back to product getting into the drains? (as in them buying cheap and dangerous/harmful products, not diluting or using properly etc.)

I'm coming across as a Luddite here but I can't see for the life of me how domestic car washing can be seen as a problem when, in point of fact, those in the majority who wash their own cars are surely likely to be buying products manufactured to strict environmental standards and not washing to a depth where serious contamination could occur. Even the more anal (read DW member) car washer would struggle, when washing a car, to remove stuff which could be seen as harmful to the environment - unless I'm missing something? Are they referring to brake dust, for example? Washing off the wheel and all that horrid crud does end up down the drain?

And surely, if I don't wash my car for, say 3 months, any rain would wash some of the debris from the car, straight into the drain anyway?

Bottom line - I'm confused. Are we talking about potentially harmful products, their misuse, runoff from cars during washing or what?


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## Mattieuk

Good post Andy, I'm very much of the same opinion as yourself on how they can differentiate (apart from volume) between domestic and commercial car washing. I'm sure the EA had published guidelines around commercial / domestic vehicle washing activities. 

I think they (EA / Water Companies) are very much concerned with commercial washing activities which in most cases use heavy duty cleaners and materials and which results in large effluent volume. 

Also it's worth considering it's not just vehicle washing. I know of a company near our site got hammered by the water company for degreasing generators in the car park without any consent. The run off started showing up in the field half a mile away as that was where some of the surface water drain's discharged.... eventually


----------



## Bigpikle

AndyC said:


> Good example Mattie.
> 
> I still don't "get" how the EA differentiate between this sort of risk and that of runoff from roads. Surely when washing a car you're removing relatively normal contaminants such as dirt, mud, bug splatter (I'm thinking usual level of washing here, rather than OCD level removal) and I can't make the connection with this sort of soiling getting into storm drains as surely it does anyway??
> 
> If you're in a remotely rural area then I'd expect that this sort of debris could and does enter the system somehow. I can understand EA concerns over uncontrolled commercial washing activities such as pub & supermarket carparks but is that not coming back to product getting into the drains? (as in them buying cheap and dangerous/harmful products, not diluting or using properly etc.)
> 
> I'm coming across as a Luddite here but I can't see for the life of me how domestic car washing can be seen as a problem when, in point of fact, those in the majority who wash their own cars are surely likely to be buying products manufactured to strict environmental standards and not washing to a depth where serious contamination could occur. Even the more anal (read DW member) car washer would struggle, when washing a car, to remove stuff which could be seen as harmful to the environment - unless I'm missing something? Are they referring to brake dust, for example? Washing off the wheel and all that horrid crud does end up down the drain?
> 
> And surely, if I don't wash my car for, say 3 months, any rain would wash some of the debris from the car, straight into the drain anyway?
> 
> Bottom line - I'm confused. Are we talking about potentially harmful products, their misuse, runoff from cars during washing or what?


Andy

I see exactly where you are coming from.

My take is that it would be impossible to itemise what was safe, and what wasnt, to go down the storm drains. Therefore legislation has to cover all 'trade effluent' eg everything that comes off a vehicle during commercial cleaning. You and I use nice and safe BH foam etc but the majority of car park 'washers' spray TFR and other such nasty stuff about, so IMHO the EA are quite right in classing everything as 'trade effluent'. The rules dont distinguish 'what' is coming off, but simply 'everything' coming off a car during washing is classed as 'trade effluent'.

I also agree that with drains in our streets washing muck away every time it rains it seems a bit daft, but PPG13 that covers car washing is simply an extension of other pollution guidelines that cover ALL aspects of waste/effluent disposal, from washing HGVs, to cleaning out oil tanks etc etc. Imagine what is used, and comes out of, old storage tanks etc when they are cleaned. The problem for us is that car washing (commercially) is seen as only 1 step from that, and is therefore covered by the same rules. EDIT: just saw Matties post above and that is exactly what i was refering to 

I also think its sad that this industry is seen in this way, and we have the image of being crude 'car washers' but when you see the activities in old forecourts, supermarket car parks etc its easy to see why most people see it that way. Personally, until I actually went to see a detailer in action after joining DW, I had never actually seen a detailer, only car wash sites and the resulting mess and pollution that most give out.


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## AndyC

I guess it would be hard for us to prove to the relevant authorities that DW members have more regard for products they use and would they care anyway? I suspect AG for one wouldn't want to see domestic car washing restricted or banned as that would harm their business.

I'm going to dig out our deeds this week and see if I can work out where the storm drains end up. No point in trying to identify it on foot so to speak as the gulley at the bottom of my driveway feeds straight down into a vertical pipe and then heads who knows where.


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## Mattieuk

Link to the EA guidelines on vehicle washing PPG13.

http://publications.environment-agency.gov.uk/pdf/PMHO0307BMDX-e-e.pdf


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## Bigpikle

AndyC said:


> I guess it would be hard for us to prove to the relevant authorities that DW members have more regard for products they use and would they care anyway? I suspect AG for one wouldn't want to see domestic car washing restricted or banned as that would harm their business.
> 
> I'm going to dig out our deeds this week and see if I can work out where the storm drains end up. No point in trying to identify it on foot so to speak as the gulley at the bottom of my driveway feeds straight down into a vertical pipe and then heads who knows where.


good luck - mine showed nothing. The water company might be worth a call as they are the ones with the records IIRC. Bet you a beer it feeds a little gully/ditch/stream/field somewhere not too far away just like mine


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## caledonia

This is the biggest problem with this law and regulations that go with it. It is so open ended. What is allowed, what is not. No one can give you the answer.

Even up here is Scotland where the law is a lot tighter. Where no run off or chemicals are allowed into the water table or storm drains. Nothing is clarified what is run off. Where do you draw the line. weather is Joe blogs washing is car or a fleet of car washer. We are all governed by this law. I have no doubt that is is going to become a money making sceem in the future. Either in taxation for the car washer in collection and disposing of waste. Also the the guy in the street will have no choice to visit these designated areas to wash they pride and joy.

The term is loosely used in the washing of cars. Yes this is run off. But surly anything that washed off you car, can be classified as this also. Weather is natural run off by the weather. My biggest concern up here and I can only speak for this is the lack of road and drainage cleaning now. Your roads are still thick with road salt and the like from the winter. Some areas are worse than others. But now surely this cant be good for the drainage network also.

Is this just another stealth tax?? I don't know. It is certainly looking like they are going to employ the public. For want of a better word to police this and report offenders. Again to cut down on man power and over heads. 

Where there is product on the market that are Bio degradable. According to the manufacturer they are safe and have the information to prove this. But the law Says different due to them causing run off.

In my opinion they needs to be clarified as in what is allowed. Now if there is going to be a blanket banned on run off this also need to be followed up with road and drainage cleaning. Which again should be disposed of safely.

But I cant see this happening. So its the good old motorist again that will have to pay.

Gordon


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## AndyC

Had a brief scan through and it seems to refer primarily to commercial car cleaning activities. Whilst I agree with a lot of what it says, I remain sure that some of the efluent on my car(s) would end up in the drains anyway whether I wash it or not.

They quote "dirt, brake dust, traffic film residue and oil" as prime contaminants and I'd be interested to see how much oil comes off my cars as I rarely see evidence of any running down my drive whilst washing. Brake dust is pretty evident but if it's that harmful then should the EA not focus on the brake pad manufacturers as we're all pretty much in their hands (unless they reduce friction and make horns louder I suppose....). "Dirt" - how do they define this exactly? And how on earth does one avoid dirt (if anyone can answer that, could they also relay it to my 2 year old as she seems to attract it). "traffic film residue" - assume that's anything which isn't any of the other items - bugs, fallout etc.

The section on waterless products is interesting too (section 4.5) as I'd wondered about spray products such as QD's, glass cleaners etc. Whilst the volumes I use are relatively small, there can be some overspray although I try to minimize this as much as possible.

Ditto the reference to surface water drains being suitable only for uncontaminated rainwater (section 1.1). I'm pretty sure that most of the planet now suffers from rain which isn't free from some form of contaminant so surely the focus should be on those discharging pollutants into the atmosphere which result in rainwater being "dirty"?

Not attacking this paper but I would question its relevance to some degree for the reasons above.


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## AndyC

Bigpikle said:


> good luck - mine showed nothing. The water company might be worth a call as they are the ones with the records IIRC. Bet you a beer it feeds a little gully/ditch/stream/field somewhere not too far away just like mine


Sounds like a challenge! Seriously, it's worth pursuing if for nothing else than to find out where all my runoff ends up.

Interestingly (or not), our garden is directly behind the garage and everything gows like a sod with seemingly no issues with plant growth or development; I used some Evergreen last night - a product made in the EU and designed to revive my lawn. Sprinkle on and water in if no rain forecast etc.

I then read the labelling and the dog / children should not be allowed near the lawn for XX days and I'm pretty sure that this stuff will enter the drainage system somwehere, hence my confusion and concern.


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## caledonia

Andy this is an other one of these open ended areas.
Your car does not need to be loosing oil. merly using it burns of chemical that then, solidify on the road surface. They are trying to say when you wash your car the detergents in the washing process dissolves these and then causes run off.

This is where all the clarification need to take place. The regulations are so open ended.
Gordon


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## Bigpikle

AndyC said:


> Sounds like a challenge! Seriously, it's worth pursuing if for nothing else than to find out where all my runoff ends up.
> 
> Interestingly (or not), our garden is directly behind the garage and everything gows like a sod with seemingly no issues with plant growth or development; I used some Evergreen last night - a product made in the EU and designed to revive my lawn. Sprinkle on and water in if no rain forecast etc.
> 
> I then read the labelling and the dog / children should not be allowed near the lawn for XX days and I'm pretty sure that this stuff will enter the drainage system somwehere, hence my confusion and concern.


yep - hence the big moves for organic gardening. If you have been to your local garden centre recently you'll see what I mean... Those lawn products probably wont get a tick in the 'green' box - they are simply industrial fertilisers 

BTW - stuff growingis part of the issue. Algaes etc grow like crazy based on all the stuff in the water, and cause much water life to die from lack of oxygen and other issues. They can form a big cover over the water and big issues. Just 1 issue of many.


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## INWARD123

Yes I care and the future is a worry but I think you have to sensible about it. As a family we recycle, I get the train quite a bit and the bus at the other end. I’ve also started to make decisions on general products we use so I won’t buy a car that’s made 10K away but one that’s made in Europe. It to me is a about a conscious decision and often compromise.

I try to use the best product possible for instance I have found some ECO cleaners useless at grease removal so I will use something like Fairy as there’s no point in using a Litre of crap when a tea spoon will do the same. 

I think more waste is often in transporting the product than actually what goes into the product it’s self. So I often Buy bulk to cut down on unnecessary packaging. 
We’ve have found that turning down the Heating using showers rather than baths makes quite a positive impact to you wallet !!

I don’t foam a lot as I think the jury’s out on that one but I find a good technique for washing cars also means that the usage of washing liquids and water is cut down. So I haven’t stopped bur as I’m on a water meter I have adjusted my technique.


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## L200 Steve

AndyC said:


> They quote "dirt, brake dust, traffic film residue and oil" as prime contaminants and I'd be interested to see how much oil comes off my cars as I rarely see evidence of any running down my drive whilst washing. Brake dust is pretty evident but if it's that harmful then should the EA not focus on the brake pad manufacturers as we're all pretty much in their hands (unless they reduce friction and make horns louder I suppose....). "Dirt" - how do they define this exactly? And how on earth does one avoid dirt (if anyone can answer that, could they also relay it to my 2 year old as she seems to attract it). "traffic film residue" - assume that's anything which isn't any of the other items - bugs, fallout etc.
> 
> Ditto the reference to surface water drains being suitable only for uncontaminated rainwater (section 1.1). I'm pretty sure that most of the planet now suffers from rain which isn't free from some form of contaminant so surely the focus should be on those discharging pollutants into the atmosphere which result in rainwater being "dirty"?


I was thinking about this thread the other night, as I drove over to Epoch's in a decent rain storm.

The amount of spray etc on the M62 that night wasn't any more excessive than normal, but, it did get me thinking about how the water from roads is treated.

The concentration of chemicals being washed from the underside of all of the traffic as it all sped along the motorway must be a lot worse than that caused by car washing?

The fluid leaks / pollution settling / tyre wear etc all collecting on the abrasive tarmac surface whilst the tarmac is dry. When the weather turns though, and the rains start to wash this contaminant off the road surface, where does it go?

You can see the big gulleys at the side of the road, flowing the run off away.

Does anyone know if there are multiple treatment sites along the motorway to deal with this hazardous waste, or is this just past into 'soakaways'

I'd have thought that motorways, or any busy road for that matter, rain run off would be a lot more hazordous than any waste entering the water course from car washing alone?


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## reparebrise

Great thread, and some good debates for sure.

Here are some things to ponder.

When a car is wet by rain, does it come clean, no there is still a film of oil left on the car, this oil is only removed by a surfactant of some sort.

How many people wash there car in a week in the UK, even if they only used 1 oz of soap each, how much soap would that be?

There is no arguing that what is coming from rain run off is not healthy, but why not change the things that you are in power to do so?


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## PJS

Steve, you're absolutely spot on in your assumptions - rain soaked roads deposit themselves into storm drains (hence the name) and the nearest fields/hedgerow/etc

Plenty of 'cast-off', which forms the traffic film, as well as airborne debris, is in that water, and afaik, it's untreated.


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## rob750

NO I dont care as any cause has been hijacked by this grasping government to further tax me


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## Relaited

In reading this http://publications.environment-agen...07BMDX-e-e.pdf 4.5 communicates some alternatives exists to the traditional wash process.

I have never seen this before. i think the Best Management Practices will evolve to include this, but now most just talk about building a dam in front of the storm drain stuff.

I agree that regulators should go after BMW and their damn brake pads, make the environment and a detailers life that much better.

But I can't accept the argument that they should regulate someone else, or someone else is worse than me.

I believe that if you are a professional, commercial business, not the weekend warrior or shady tree detailer, you should operate to the standards of a commercial car wash. Limit the amount of water used, and control the contaminants.

The argument that I only detail 5 cars a week does not hold water ... as in aggregate is the issue.

For me, I have elected to not complain that "the man" is taxing me, or debate global warming.

For me, this issue has presented a set of compelling events, necessitating that a Water Smart Eco Detailing model has allowed me to accelerate my growth.

Not bragging, but we are growing as fast as we can find good people, train them and put them in place.

We target commercial locations where luxury cars aggregate. with a Maintenance & Prevention detailing definition, you can deliver quality services with the customer benefit of convenience.

From the tea leaves I read here in these posts, The same set of conditions exist for someone to capitalize on its opportunity in your part of the world.

I can smell it


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## jcmac

I shall be honest, I don't care.

But a degree of responsibility is there where I will not pour chemicals down the drain etc..


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## nogrille

Glasgow_Gio said:


> Are you deliberately trying to get a reaction? I suggest you edit your post.


not particularly. That's the way I feel.


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## Mattieuk

PJS said:


> Steve, you're absolutely spot on in your assumptions - rain soaked roads deposit themselves into storm drains (hence the name) and the nearest fields/hedgerow/etc
> 
> Plenty of 'cast-off', which forms the traffic film, as well as airborne debris, is in that water, and afaik, it's untreated.


Not entirely true. Modern built roads specifically for high volume traffic have soak away's at certain points along their storm drains. These basically let the heavier oil and contaminants sink to the bottom and the cleaner water flow away. Then at a set period of time the soak away is emptied of the contaminants. The ones I have seen prior to install and extremely big and would take ages to fill with nasty stuff.


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## spitfire

Bigpikle said:


> Guys - to be frank, I think this whole thread is pretty pointless.
> 
> Luckily I have come across very few people who really dont care, and would chuck used engine oil down a drain or in a field etc (but they certainly still exist :wall and most people are sensible enough to take obvious measures, if only as it usually saves £ as well as any other impact eg lights off etc etc.
> 
> I do get very frustrated by the entire "they dont do it so why should I" argument, and the next step on "country X pollute so I can as well", as the logic there is crazy. I remember losing those arguments with my parents when I was 5 years old, claiming that little Fred over the street threw stones so I did as well
> 
> This section is for those people who WANT to look for ways and means to reduce their impact on the environment while detailing. What people often seem to miss here is that there are plenty of ways we can continue to detail cars to the standards we choose to AND reduce our impact. The entire idea is not mutually exclusive. Its not either/or, and many of the contributions to this section have highlighted some great ways to do that.
> 
> I also believe sooner or later the nanny state will legislate us into a corner and we will have to change. *One reason we see so much legislation is because often it is the ONLY way to get some people to change. The classic is the 'pay for rubbish collection' schemes currently being waved about. If people would change habits and recycle more then there would be no need to tax people to throw waste in a landfill. *It'll happen to car washing at some point I have no doubt


I appreciate you said one reason. I am currently prepared to recycle more of my rubbish but my council can't even get their act together. They accept glass in one area whilst not in others. They accept some plastics but not others. They accept paper but not cardboard. They accept garden refuse but won't let you buy back the compost which would help with costs. My point is that *they* could try much harder before making us pay for our deficiencies.


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## markc

I couldn't care less..and i agree with Spitfire our council is the same.


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## PJS

Picking up on Spitfire's bolded quoting of Damon's remark about recycling.....
Recycling is a joke at the best of times, and serves no other purpose than control freakery by local and central government.
How many of you whom recycle like the good citizen you believe you are, actually understand that the bulk of it, is simply combined with all the other "recycled" waste, and used as ballast for boats heading back to the Far East?
Why separate this, only for it to be recombined at the dump where it's off-loaded in?

Then there's the situation where recycled paper, is more expensive to buy than virgin paper, so there's less demand for it. Ergo, there's less recycled in the true sense of the word because of lack of demand to make the exercise feasible.

As is typical of this (all?) government(s), complete lack of collective thinking and cohesiveness of actions makes sure that their policies are abject failures in their implied intentions.

Damon, it's about time you realised your extra tax is nothing to do with landfills, but everything to do with gold plated pensions for those in local councils - every other European country can collect refuse weekly or even twice a week, yet for some reason, only here in the UK do we seem to have a fundamental problem with that, that the solution is to cut back to fortnightly collections - why is that?
It's not as if our rates are lower than abroad - quite the opposite in fact!

You really do need to wake up to the fact that a lot of "green" issues have been used as yet another form of stealth taxation, to appease the "Greens", and to exert control over our lives.
I'm sure you're old enough to remember back to John Major's time as PM, and if you think back to then, we all managed fine just then with things as they were.

If Labour had any idea about effective expenditure of our taxes, rather than throwing it around like it's going out of fashion, and having to borrow more to keep doing so, then we'd not be in the state we are.
In 11 years, this shower of cretins have put the UK BACK 20 years or more - things once working just fine, are now in such a state of shambles, it's hard to ever imagine they'll be fixed again.


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## Gruffs

I stayed clear of this thread when it started as it was initially just rubbish.
But now we have progressed to some worthwhile discussion, i'll add my 2p if that's OK.

Do i care about the environment? Yes would have to be my answer. I care about my environment. Where I live happens to be one of the nicer parts of the country. I love my little part of England and how it looks. I will pick up litter and look after it. When i go to other parts of the UK, i'm quite frankly, disgusted with the conditions in which some folk choose to live. 

What's my point? 

Well, if we all look after our immediate Environment using small, simple, managable measures, then the bigger, global environment will look after itself. In other words, if everyone takes care of their little bit, the whole will be taken care of as a result.

If those that choose not to refuse to do this, we then have to make them do it. Hence the legislation. 

As with all things and i'll refer to Cueballs post if may, it is the attitude of the general public that needs to be addressed. If we took responsibility for our own actions and our own piece of the world, most of our problems would go away. Unfortunately, there is only 1 Jeremy Kyle to deal with those that are left. While we insist on carrying those that refuse to contribute to our society, we will never cut away the rot that is ruining it.

Appreciating cleanliness and tidyness is usually a personality trait of someone who details cars so Halfordshopper, i cannot believe that you like living in a crap hole. Please stop baiting the forum. Your question could have been structured in a way that wouldn't offend. We all like debate on here and will freely enter into one. There is no real need to spark a reaction.


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## Bigpikle

Phil - you have an amazing talent to take something and twist it beyond belief into so many other areas 

My comment on taxing rubbish collection was simply a comment about the use of legislation by this nanny state to try and get people to change habits. Dont confuse that with ANY idea I support it or any of this bunch of incompetent's <sorry, government's> policies on taxation or green issues 

I do remember John Major, and also remember when the local landfill site was shorter than the huge trees that used to surround it....


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## Gruffs

I forgot to add that in many ways, being green can save (or earn) you money if you are clever about it. 

I don't care what sort of person your are, who doesn't like a bit of extra money?


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## Relaited

So yesterday I went to the Sanitation Department. I picked up a Composting Bin. I brought it home and set it up with my 2 kids. This will be an exercise that I can do together with them, to bond with my kids, educate them and have a little fun.

Today we go to the local coffee shop to get the coffee grinds.

Tomorrow is Earth Day. I will be at the local Environmentally Friendly Mall, 40 other vendors. I will wash all participants in the Electric Car Parade that ends at the Mall. My kids are coming.

How can all that, or any of that be a bad thing? Again, I am no tree hugger. I do care, and I am enjoying doing it.

-jim

PS While at the Sanitation Department, I talked with a couple Engineers about discharge into the sewer ... still trying to digest and educate myself. Will post what I learn soon.


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## PJS

Bigpikle said:


> Phil - you have an amazing talent to take something and twist it beyond belief into so many other areas
> 
> My comment on taxing rubbish collection was simply a comment about the use of legislation by this nanny state to try and get people to change habits. Dont confuse that with ANY idea I support it or any of this bunch of incompetent's <sorry, government's> policies on taxation or green issues
> 
> I do remember John Major, and also remember when the local landfill site was shorter than the huge trees that used to surround it....


Thank you......I think! 

Everything I said above, is linked to the service provided - so as money is squandered in one area, they have to raise the shortfall from another, and in this instance, it's jumping on a green bandwagon in the name of all things good for the environment, but yet when looked into, you can easily find it's a load of ballsocks.
So, what really IS the point of making people split their waste into specific types, only then to recombine it back at the dump?

I don't see how any of that implies you are a Labourite and need to be shot many times, to be sure you're not just wounded, but makes you realise not all government policies are created for altruistic means.


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## Bigpikle

PJS said:


> Thank you......I think!
> 
> Everything I said above, is linked to the service provided - so as money is squandered in one area, they have to raise the shortfall from another, and in this instance, it's jumping on a green bandwagon in the name of all things good for the environment, but yet when looked into, you can easily find it's a load of ballsocks.
> So, what really IS the point of making people split their waste into specific types, only then to recombine it back at the dump?
> 
> I don't see how any of that implies you are a Labourite and need to be shot many times, to be sure you're not just wounded, but makes you realise not all government policies are created for altruistic means.


Phil - I'm more apolitical 

My viewpoint is that all govt is essentially corrupt, and that its power brokers and vested interests behind the scenes that drive most policy making


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## Intel

I care about my immediate surroundings a bit more than I used too; picking up litter, sweeping up at the back, a little it of recycling, etc.

With the way the world is, I don't think a lot will change, but as usual our government has seen fit to add a tax to it.
Also, if the world carries on as we know it, the place will be knackered in a couple of centuries time.

I.


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## outcastjack

I gave up recycling when i found out that my council is crushing glass from bottle banks and sending them to land fill. what a bloody useless waste of time!


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## Dahl

I don't care that much, but I would like to think that the **** we use doesn't end up in the oceans killing innocent animals.


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## Relaited

Pudget Sound, near Seattle Washington did a study that offers facts that run off kills fish.


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## PJS

Yes, as may that be the case, please remember EU directives on which surfactants are legally allowable in a product, don't apply in the US/Canada, and it may well be that the EU is ahead of the game, compared to your part of the world.
So any anecdotal evidence you dig up, has to be put in true and proper context - just like the Climate Change bandwagon being pushed by the green brigade isn't!

I'd be more interested to know how the US/Canadian water treatment/providers do with the sludge they have - like NI, is it incinerated or simply shoved down the nearest off-shore outlet pipe, or scattered over local/remote fields?
Equally, as for many a year, the EU have enforced water-soluble solvent paints here, yet the US, still uses the heavily solvent-based paints, is that "issue" being addressed, or is it a case of the car/body shop industry having too much clout there for it to be made an issue by the folks on Capital Hill?


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## Relaited

Not sure on the treatment. Tryign to get more educated.

Not surprised that EU is ahead in many respects.

I know that California has moved to water soluable paints, not sure how many other states?


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## mrjt1988

Of course we have a responsibility. Our grand childen have to live on this planet and if we want them to live we must take precautions now. I have used the ECO range from Halfords and tis great. Just becuase the packaging isnt bold and brash like twax and megs doesnt mean it doesnt work. It does. I think it is education is what we need. 
Would you try and green product? If not why not?


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## Dixondmn

I'm all for a bit of recycling etc, and my local council seem to love hammering the fact into all of us that we're all going to die if we dont rinse out our used tins and bottles and stuff them in the special recycling bin.....

Now I have some issues with this....

1) its a waste of water at my expense to effectivley wash something up that i'm about to throw away.

2) when i try to recycle MORE than my recycling bin will hold, the collection men just leave it on the pavement!!! - why!! If its THAT important to recycle why don't they take it. Clearly its all just political.

That being said I do care about the state of our environment buy i firmly believe that the efforts of England alone are negligable.


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## G1lly

Im all for doing my bit, recycling is a good thing . as far as green car care products go i think it is nonsense.
To me another range of products in halfords is just more packaging and products for sale, making more money for another company clinging on to the green bandwagon.

Would it not be better if the main companys made their products green that way you would have the same number of products but greener instead of two ranges, a waste of resources IMO

I think *mrtj1988* Is right education is key however it will probably take a few more generations to get through to people

However im an enviro sceptic and dont understand how it costs us more to use less. So i probably need more education than most


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## sidekickdmr

TBH no im not really, (well in the big picture i think we need to sort it out but individually i like driving my car)

But more and more clients are trying to go "green"


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