# Bilberry - has it changed?



## Mr Yellow (Apr 30, 2009)

Hi guys,

I was looking at the data sheet for bilberry and noticed that it contains nitrilotracetate. As someone who works in this industry, this ingredient has had a reclassification and is now (legally) considered to be a category 3 carcinogen. There has been a move to therefore remove it from use because, at any notable concentration, it means that a product containing it will also be considered as a carcinogen. So basically I am wondering whether Bilberry wheel cleaner has had any changes apparent on the label or whether anyone has noticed a change in performance?

Ta


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## Superspec (Feb 25, 2011)

When is it dangerous? When inhaled, ingested or absorbed? (Or any other way possible.) And is it safe to use if PPE is used?

PVC wrap on cheese is a carcinogen, apparently!


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## Grizzle (Jul 12, 2006)

yeh apparently its not made at its original place and now made elsewhere.


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## Mr Yellow (Apr 30, 2009)

The truth is that it is no more dangerous now than it has ever been... it is health and safety gone a bit mad. The new classification is general, non-specific to inhalation, skin contact etc. hence why it is meant to be limited in use. There is nothing wrong with using it but it is a legal obligation to identify the product as a category 3 carcinogen if the concentration of NTA is above 5%. So, according to the data sheet I have from a couple of years back, bilberry wheel cleaner should either have a category 3 carcinogen risk stated on the packaging or it will have changed the formulation - otherwise they are breaking the law!

I was just wondering whether anyone with a recent bottle can say what has actually happened because I cannot find any up to date MSDS info...


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## angelw (Nov 25, 2009)

x12yhp said:


> The truth is that it is no more dangerous now than it has ever been... it is health and safety gone a bit mad. The new classification is general, non-specific to inhalation, skin contact etc. hence why it is meant to be limited in use. There is nothing wrong with using it but it is a legal obligation to identify the product as a category 3 carcinogen if the concentration of NTA is above 5%. So, according to the data sheet I have from a couple of years back, bilberry wheel cleaner should either have a category 3 carcinogen risk stated on the packaging or it will have changed the formulation - otherwise they are breaking the law!
> 
> I was just wondering whether anyone with a recent bottle can say what has actually happened because I cannot find any up to date MSDS info...


The safety data sheet on valet pro`s site is one of our old ones and as he is no longer selling our product the safety data sheet is no longer valid.
The proper bilberry ie ours doesn`t need to be classified as carcinogenic.
If you get a new MSDS I wouldn`t mind a look!


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## guy_92 (Oct 26, 2010)

Just to add to this, both Espuma Revolution and AutoSmart Smart Wheels contain nitrilotracetate.

Smart Wheels:

Trisodium nitrilotriacetate 1%- 5% - Carc - Cat3 R40 Xn;R22 Xi: R36.

Revolution:

Trisodium nitrilotriacetate 5064-31-3 10 - 20% Xi R36


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## Mr Yellow (Apr 30, 2009)

The Smart Wheel will be OK - it has very little in it so not a problem (though you should remember that NTA will be doing much of the cleaning)

The Revolution product should be classified as a CC3 but, guessing from the fact that they have failed to identify the NTA hazard in isolation, I would take a stab at saying that they have not yet identified the hazard in the product itself.


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## Spoony (May 28, 2007)

In real terms what does this mean? It is Revolution I use...


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## Mr Yellow (Apr 30, 2009)

It means that, assuming the Revolution has not been reformulated, the product presents a noteworthy cancer hazard. That is a big assumption. We should assume that they have reformulated the product and that they are not simply ignoring the dangers to save themselves hassle.


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## Spoony (May 28, 2007)

Question for espuma I suppose


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## guy_92 (Oct 26, 2010)

x12yhp said:


> It means that, assuming the Revolution has not been reformulated, the product presents a noteworthy cancer hazard. That is a big assumption. We should assume that they have reformulated the product and that they are not simply ignoring the dangers to save themselves hassle.


So if it hasn't been reformulated can it cause me to get cancer? Does that particular ingredient make a lot of difference to the overall effectiveness of the product?


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## Mr Yellow (Apr 30, 2009)

It could do, that is why it is meant to be notified if NTA is present above 5%. There are alternatives, of course, but they either work less well or cost more. The one I sent you was the latter.

And yes, it does make a difference. This is a notable issue in the cleaning industry. NTA has been used in a huge number of things for a great many years because it is very effective. It does two jobs, it grabs hold of the 'rubbish' in your water (allowing the rest of the ingredients to work optimally) and it is sufficiently strong that it actually breaks chemical bonds in many dirts/stains/etc, thus dissolving and removing them. The economical replacement in the industry is based on phosphonates which are every bit as good at part 1, but are nowhere near as good at part 2. Unfortunately, consumers want cheap so the industry has settled with the phosphonates. There are safe alternatives to NTA which are (arguably) even better performing, but there is a cyclic problem... the consumer is not willing to pay more, so the producer cant afford to use the better chemical, so the raw material manufacturer makes only small volumes, which keeps the price high... etc. etc.


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## lemkey (Apr 16, 2010)

So which decent wheels cleaners dont contain carcinogenic materials?


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## tzotzo (Nov 15, 2009)

where do you get information about ingredients?


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## angelw (Nov 25, 2009)

Buy your Bilberry from those who developed it! 
You will find it works great and doesn't have to be classified as harmful


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## Guest (Apr 3, 2011)

Drop me a pm over that :thumb:


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## Super G (Jan 21, 2010)

if the product was made and distributed before the reclassification then this is still covered by origianl msds and does not have to have the updated labelling. (no less dangerous i might add) 

So would imagine that a reformulation will be taking place as anything around cancer scares the pants of everyone. and would want to avoid such labelling.


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## scooby73 (Mar 20, 2007)

Grizzle said:


> yeh apparently its not made at its original place and now made elsewhere.


I work for the company that now manufactures Bilberry. So I'll ask one of the lads in process, or one of the chemists if it still contains this product.

I think we've been making it or the last few months at least. We tend to make two IBCs of solution at a time.


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## guy_92 (Oct 26, 2010)

Does TFR contain any carcinogens? Might go back to the old dealership way of using strong TFR on wheels!


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## angelw (Nov 25, 2009)

scooby73 said:


> I work for the company that now manufactures Bilberry. So I'll ask one of the lads in process, or one of the chemists if it still contains this product.
> 
> I think we've been making it or the last few months at least. We tend to make two IBCs of solution at a time.


As I am the chemist who developed Bilberry and holds the formulation it would be more accurate to say that you make a Bilberry equivalent .the safety data sheet on valetpro 's site is an old one of mine and was accurate for the regs at the time.the Bilberry wheel cleaner product as formulated by myself doesn't have to be classified as harmful,it would be interesting to see the msds of your product.


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## chisai (Jan 1, 2009)

angelw said:


> You will find it works great


Just to confirm that this is indeed correct.


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## Padtwo (Apr 11, 2007)

OK, so there are some products about, or there has been, that contain substances classed as carcinogens at a level deemed by the health and safety gurus to be dangerous?

Is there also an exposure limit to go with it? ie how long do you have to be exposed to it, how regularly, how much etc for it to be a risk?


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## walker1967 (Sep 12, 2010)

angelw said:


> Buy your Bilberry from those who developed it!
> You will find it works great and doesn't have to be classified as harmful


was over your way last week to try out your bilberry :thumb: I,ll defo be back over for more  excellent stuff :thumb:


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## zak20vt (May 6, 2010)

I'm confused. Where can I get the 'original' Bilberry? I bought some of the valet pro stuff, so is the Bilberry 'equivalent'?

Thanks


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## angelw (Nov 25, 2009)

zak20vt said:


> I'm confused. Where can I get the 'original' Bilberry? I bought some of the valet pro stuff, so is the Bilberry 'equivalent'?
> 
> Thanks


Yes this will be the Bilberry equivalent ,I will pm you with details regarding purchase info


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## GrahamKendall (Sep 8, 2009)

Practicaly everything is a carcinogen nowadays.... I hate health and safety


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## Mirecxl (Jan 3, 2011)

angelw said:


> Yes this will be the Bilberry equivalent ,I will pm you with details regarding purchase info


Can you post this details here for everyone , please ???


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## angelw (Nov 25, 2009)

Mirecxl said:


> Can you post this details here for everyone , please ???


Sorry I can't as I don't sponsor any of the sections,
If you or anyone else pm's me I will sort you out.
We are also a company that takes it's health and safety seriously
And all our materials are properly labeled and safety data is as up to date as we are aware .


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## Lee.GTi180 (Apr 28, 2010)

Umm shouldn't you be paying subscriptions to be selling properly instead of hawking your products around via PM?


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## VIPER (May 30, 2007)

angelw said:


> Sorry I can't as I don't sponsor any of the sections,
> *If you or anyone else pm's me I will sort you out.*
> We are also a company that takes it's health and safety seriously
> And all our materials are properly labeled and safety data is as up to date as we are aware .


I don't think so!

If you want to trade on here, come and speak to one of us, but it's strictly against the rules to offer what you've just done. As such I'm suspending your PM ability affective immediately until I've decided what action to take.

Everyone else, take note: this is not acceptable.


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