# F1 Morality (may contain spoilers)



## S63 (Jan 5, 2007)

After today's race and having watched the post interviews and seeing Vettel stating it was a "mistake" which I for one will never buy, which camp do you fall in

Vettel typically German, ruthless, cool and clinical (very Schumacer esk)

Webber typically Australian, laid back nice guy, passionate but gives the impression there are more important things in life than racing occasionally.

I'd love Webber to win, but guys like him rarely do, can only think of Damon in recent times.


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## Dift (May 22, 2011)

Youve pretty much called it.

I can't see Webber staying much longer, not seeing how Vettel has been looked after in the past by the team.

I'd be peeed if I was Webber.


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## AllenF (Aug 20, 2012)

Massa quits at end of season webber goes to ferrari.
OR
Perrez doesnt make the grade and webber goes to mclaren
My money is on kimi this year. You just never know with that guy.
Vettal is to far up himself very shumaceresk (in his early days) for my liking. It never seems to be his fault does it. Be nice to see him have a big one like schuey did at silverstone to bring him down a bit.
That said the reversing at that speed with oncoming traffic WAS impressive.
F1 next year or year after with the new engine rules is going to test a few though lol


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## S63 (Jan 5, 2007)

Wouldn't surprise me if Webber retires from F1 and has some fun driving something like a Holden in Australian touring cars, he'd be adored like Brocky.


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## R7KY D (Feb 16, 2010)

Me im with Webber on this one , but I heard something said in the interviews so I looked it up because I'd never heard of the tale before 

The scorpion and the frog 

Google it if you've never read it , it's a very short story


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## S63 (Jan 5, 2007)

R7KY D said:


> Me im with Webber on this one , but I heard something said in the interviews so I looked it up because I'd never heard of the tale before
> 
> The scorpion and the frog
> 
> Google it if you've never read it , it's a very short story


Not heard that fable before, very apt.:thumb:


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## B17BLG (Jun 26, 2012)

I only caught abit of the story on the radio this morning! Did Vettel ask Webber to be moved out the way so he could pass?

Will watch back on BBC on iPlayer later


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## Will_G (Jan 23, 2012)

Typical Vettel, so far up his own rectum it's unreal. Webber seems a genuinely nice guy and he's been done over. Think it'll be a long time before this one is forgotten. Horner will have his hands full this year now after that. One thing about the manoeuvre that I thought was questionable was when passing Webber on the pit straight his right wheels clearly were beyond the white line. Does this not class as him being off track as similar to the questions last season.

Team orders worked in Mercedes but tbh if I was Rosberg I'd be furious with brawn. Clearly Rosberg had pace but not due to burning off more fuel.


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## Will_G (Jan 23, 2012)

B17BLG said:


> I only caught abit of the story on the radio this morning! Did Vettel ask Webber to be moved out the way so he could pass?
> 
> Will watch back on BBC on iPlayer later


Red Bull had the 1-2 sealed up both drivers were told to turn down the engine and fuel mix and stay in formation to the end with Webber in front. A few times they got close and Vettel was told to calm down. In the end he passed Webber against team orders in a tight pass near the pit wall that continued through to turn 4.


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## Johnny_B (Feb 3, 2013)

What i learned from todays race .. Hamilton still thinks he drives for mclaren and vettpe thinks its all about him and is not a team player


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## suspal (Dec 29, 2011)

not being cynical or anything :lol: i've lost my love of F1 does'nt feel special anymore  getting off my soapbox now :lol:


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## SteveTDCi (Feb 8, 2006)

I agree with the Mercedes orders, rosberg going by wasn't going to acheive anything. Vettel I have no time for, if tha had been the other way around vettel would be having kittens. I really hope webber beats him and that vettel retires from every race.


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## LittleMissTracy (May 17, 2012)

suspal said:


> not being cynical or anything :lol: i've lost my love of F1 does'nt feel special anymore  getting off my soapbox now :lol:


I second that.
I've been to an F1 race and worked at Siverstone, but the sport / business seems to be turning more a little like footie maybe. This is why I won't subscribe to Sky.
As for the overtake, it was racing and seems to be a good sparing, but Vettel has been know for taking Webber out and ignored team orders.


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## davo3587 (May 9, 2012)

This is the main reason why i stopped watching f1. To much politics involved in racing, i am and always will be a moto gp person, as i love my bikes.

How can it be called a sport, if there are team orders, which is taking the fun and excitement from the fans, and causing frustration to both fans and drivers.They might as well just post the results now for the next race.


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## SteveTDCi (Feb 8, 2006)

The overtake was great from a fans point of view but the team had issued an instruction and that was to stay in order. Vettel disobeyed that. The team should come first. While rosberg was quite clearly annoyed he did do as instructed.


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## Method Man (Aug 28, 2009)

F1 has gone too 'Premier League' for my liking with some drivers getting far too big for their boots.

Coverage going to Sky has also reduced my interest.

I used to love it with Murray Walker and James Hunt and also the Humphries, DC, Eddie Jordan, Martin Brundle team.


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## Mr479 (Mar 10, 2013)

Vettel here I think is in the wrong, but I think drivers should be left to race and not take tactical orders like that!


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## adlem (Jul 6, 2008)

Vettel was in the wrong and showed himself as the typical, arrogant German who thinks he's bigger than the team.

Webber on several occasions has always one as instructed and therefore never been able to fight for the title. After last year I thought he'd have left Red Bull - this surely is the final straw for him. 

Rosberg although annoyed did the right thing and was praised for it and made it clear in the post race interview why - he's an employee and must do as the team wish


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## B17BLG (Jun 26, 2012)

Back to the whole team orders thing!

Shouldn't be allowed in the first place but as it was clearly instructed by the team that he should not pass shows he disregard for the team imo


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## Johnny_B (Feb 3, 2013)

Did anyone see what dr helmut had to say .. I pissed my self laughing at it .. Hes known for blasting webbers driving but the other way round he licked his ass today and said "least we didnt have excat orders like mercedes today" funniest thing ive heard a german say!


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## Blueberry (Aug 10, 2007)

Mr479 said:


> Vettel here I think is in the wrong, but I think drivers should be left to race and not take tactical orders like that!


I totally agree. Vettel was in the wrong. However, It's a race and racing should be allowed to take place even if it is between team mates. There shouldn't be teams telling drivers to let others pass or to stay as you are. Let them race.


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## adlem (Jul 6, 2008)

Blueberry said:


> I totally agree. Vettel was in the wrong. However, It's a race and racing should be allowed to take place even if it is between team mates. There shouldn't be teams telling drivers to let others pass or to stay as you are. Let them race.


But it's always been race to the last pit stop and if there's nothing to gain or lose to others, that's the way it stays rather than them taking each other out which can happen.

Vettel wasn't quicker for the majority of the race and Webber had done enough. Also don't forget they also want to preserve fuel, engines and gearboxes throughout the season :thumb:


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## hoikey (Mar 9, 2011)

I thought it was perfectly fine tbh. Its a race, vettel raced to the end. Watching the leaders parade round to keep the team happy is boring. Nico amd hamilton racing each other was good watching, then team orders came through and they just sat there, YAWN.

This id why i rarely watch f1 nowadays.


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## Derekh929 (Aug 28, 2011)

Will_G said:


> Typical Vettel, so far up his own rectum it's unreal. Webber seems a genuinely nice guy and he's been done over. Think it'll be a long time before this one is forgotten. Horner will have his hands full this year now after that. One thing about the manoeuvre that I thought was questionable was when passing Webber on the pit straight his right wheels clearly were beyond the white line. Does this not class as him being off track as similar to the questions last season.
> 
> Team orders worked in Mercedes but tbh if I was Rosberg I'd be furious with brawn. Clearly Rosberg had pace but not due to burning off more fuel.


Having met both of them I still think vettel is very nice with his fanatic he stayed longer than had to to sign autographes , weber has got boring and grumpy blanking fans last year and standing right next to him asked for pic with my son and first driver to ignore us most are excellent. mark is ok but has not got vettel s speed. As for Rosberg I feel for him today he as a gentleman and Brawn today did his self no favours but hey I don't think he will be there next year:thumb:


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## Vossman (Aug 5, 2010)

Its a race, the winner is the winner and its nice to see someone stick their neck out and win, Webber hadn't done enough because he did not cross the line first and that's a fact, he was like a big kid after the race - that's what makes Vettel a world class winner and Webber a poor loser.
Who wants to see F1 teams deciding amongst themselves who wins what race? Shame on Red Bull for even thinking about it.


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## AllenF (Aug 20, 2012)

Vettal needs to learn how to spell
There is no I in team.
It may be racing BUT the team comes first every time..
How many time has vettal witten off TWO cars through his arrogance, stupidity and blind sightedness.
Schumacer in the making AGAIN


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## hoikey (Mar 9, 2011)

AllenF said:


> Vettal needs to learn how to spell
> There is no I in team.
> It may be racing BUT the team comes first every time..
> How many time has vettal witten off TWO cars through his arrogance, stupidity and blind sightedness.
> Schumacer in the making AGAIN


Says the guy who cant spell vettel pmsl epic fail


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## S63 (Jan 5, 2007)

hoikey said:


> Says the guy who cant spell vettel pmsl epic fail


Classic, that one needs framing.


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## PeteT (Feb 26, 2006)

I'm with Vettel on this one. IMO team orders should be stopped, it's just insulting to the fans who've paid good money to see a 'race'.


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## djdarren (Oct 17, 2011)

Maybe the teams should have only one driver then we wouldn't have this problem.


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## suspal (Dec 29, 2011)

This was racing enough said


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## LittleMissTracy (May 17, 2012)

AllenF said:


> There is no I in team.


There is me 
One rule for him to ignore team orders and one rule for Webber to obey them


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## Deanoecosse (Mar 15, 2007)

suspal said:


> This was racing enough said
> 
> Senna vs Prost - 1988 French Grand Prix - YouTube


Those were the days when F1 was actually a "sport", with no computers to help with the driving. Even when that pair were team mates they duelled like they were from rival teams and were always amazing to watch.

On the subject of team orders, how is that any different from match fixing in football? If a team manager decides mid race which of his drivers will win the race, he could be doing it because he has a big wedge of cash riding on a bet in the bookies! I would be mighty p1ssed if i had a large bet on driver A to win and then team orders forced him to let his team mate past on the last lap to "win"


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## willwander (Nov 30, 2012)

Omg shock horror, he broke team orders, the cynic in me says the whole episode is just spin to get them in the news and make the race sound more interesting, god knows they need it as F1 has been so boring to watch for years now, it's all about the drivers and their 'personalities', and very little to do with cars, just like top gear really.


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## S63 (Jan 5, 2007)

With many comments about F1 being boring I'm beginning to wonder if I'm watching something else. It has gone through a period of boredom for sure but recently F1 has been anything but.

How many of you cynics correctly forecast the first seven winners of last years championship?


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## willwander (Nov 30, 2012)

S63 said:


> With many comments about F1 being boring I'm beginning to wonder if I'm watching something else. It has gone through a period of boredom for sure but recently F1 has been anything but.
> 
> How many of you cynics correctly forecast the first seven winners of last years championship?


Yeah it's got better recently, it's gone from two overtaking manoeuvres per race up to about oh...maybe four


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## cheekymonkey (Mar 15, 2008)

S63 said:


> With many comments about F1 being boring I'm beginning to wonder if I'm watching something else. It has gone through a period of boredom for sure but recently F1 has been anything but.
> 
> How many of you cynics correctly forecast the first seven winners of last years championship?


its all artificial racing now with the gimmicks they have brought in.


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## Vossman (Aug 5, 2010)

World Touring Cars is brilliant to watch, no team orders and bumps and bangs are the name of the game.


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## willwander (Nov 30, 2012)

Yeah most overtaking now is just meaningless and artificial, what with all the pit stops, DRS, all the cars being on different tyres, fuel loads blah blah etc, what I mean is there are no 'racing' over takes. Jeeze for most of the race these days you can't even figure out who is in the lead without using a computer.


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

cheekymonkey said:


> its all artificial racing now with the gimmicks they have brought in.


People complained there was no overtaking and the reason there wasn't any overtaking is these car are all about downforce.

The downforce levels are significantly affected following another car making it really hard to pass.

They did allow gimmicks to assist a pass and people now complain that it is not fair.

People weren't tolerant enough to understand physics and now they complain when they have done something to make passes happen.


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## S63 (Jan 5, 2007)

willwander said:


> Yeah it's got better recently, it's gone from two overtaking manoeuvres per race up to about oh...maybe four


Change the cars or more importantly the tracks and have multiple over taking in every race then there would be criticism that its too easy, some will say boring! and moments like Mansell overtaking Piquet, Sennas lap around a wet Donington would be forgotten.

Extremely difficult to get the balance just right but they ain't too far away at present.


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

willwander said:


> Yeah most overtaking now is just meaningless and artificial, what with all the pit stops, DRS, all the cars being on different tyres, fuel loads blah blah etc, what I mean is there are no 'racing' over takes. Jeeze for most of the race these days you can't even figure out who is in the lead without using a computer.


What is the difference between F1 cars being allowed to use DRS to overtake and the touring cars adding ballast to successful cars to artificially slow them down?


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

Funny moment from today. F1 keep removing the videos.

Hamilton much feel a little bit of a plonker.


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## madstaff (Jun 4, 2012)

Think i'll stick with Moto GP, roll on April 7th. :thumb:


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## willwander (Nov 30, 2012)

madstaff said:


> Think i'll stick with Moto GP, roll on April 7th. :thumb:


Yep, Moto GP wins every time for me, love it, can't wait.


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## cheekymonkey (Mar 15, 2008)

Kerr said:


> People complained there was no overtaking and the reason there wasn't any overtaking is these car are all about downforce.
> 
> The downforce levels are significantly affected following another car making it really hard to pass.
> 
> ...


no need for gimmicks remove some down force, back to manual Gbox no traction control etc etc, take it back to how it was intended then you will get real racing :thumb:


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## cheekymonkey (Mar 15, 2008)

S63 said:


> Change the cars or more importantly the tracks and have multiple over taking in every race then there would be criticism that its too easy, some will say boring! and moments like Mansell overtaking Piquet, Sennas lap around a wet Donington would be forgotten.
> 
> Extremely difficult to get the balance just right but they ain't too far away at present.


if people are overtaking, and i mean proper overtaking how would that boring?. the drivers you have mention were only allowed to show how good of a driver they were because of the cars they drove. they were allowed to drive a car not pilot it as they do. put any of the great drivers there has been and they would just look average.


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

cheekymonkey said:


> no need for gimmicks remove some down force, back to manual Gbox no traction control etc etc, take it back to how it was intended then you will get real racing :thumb:


They would have to reduce downforce levels greatly and there is nothing better than seeing a F1 fly through Eau Rouge.

I don't want to see cars travelling 20MPH slower.

Even many road cars have flappy paddles. Most race cars have flappy paddles or sequential gearboxes.

This is the pinnacle of motorsport where technology has to be used.

Remove any aids and we will still end up with the same results 95% of the time.


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## minimadgriff (Jul 8, 2007)

V8 Supercars is the one to watch......


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## cheekymonkey (Mar 15, 2008)

minimadgriff said:


> V8 Supercars is the one to watch......


to right love it, the utes are good to :thumb:


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## cheekymonkey (Mar 15, 2008)

Kerr said:


> They would have to reduce downforce levels greatly and there is nothing better than seeing a F1 fly through Eau Rouge.
> 
> I don't want to see cars travelling 20MPH slower.
> 
> ...


well if its all about speed then drag racing is the 1 want to watch, as for it being the pinnacle? well there is far better motorsport out there. I would sooner them loose 30mph if it meant good racing, the way it use to be.


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

cheekymonkey said:


> well if its all about speed then drag racing is the 1 want to watch, as for it being the pinnacle? well there is far better motorsport out there. I would sooner them loose 30mph if it meant good racing, the way it use to be.


Drag racing is mental to watch, but it isn't the same thing.

Define better?

F1 is the pinnacle with most money, most technology, the best drivers and the best engineers.

It is like saying Man Utd aren't the best footballing team in England as there is more competition in the Conference league.

The way is used to be? The thing is people still talk about single incidents 20-30 years ago as defining moments of F1 and the truth is they have always been rare.

I don't know why people think racing will be door to door action for the entire race. It rarely happens in any form of motorsport.


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

I think rallying and watching hill climbs are great fun too.

Never is there any other cars to actually race side by side with.

It is all about an appreciation of skill, noise, speed, fear, the cars and seeing the guys trying their hearts out.


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## cheekymonkey (Mar 15, 2008)

Kerr said:


> Drag racing is mental to watch, but it isn't the same thing.
> 
> Define better?
> 
> ...


the money and the technology are 2 of the biggest problems with f1, they have taken it away from its roots. 20-30 years there were some rare moments in f1 but more important there were many great races, the sort of races you can never get now a days, back then it wasn't all to do with pits and qualifying. Man utd are the better team as there top of the premier league but more to the point the premier league is not what football use to be. its more like ballet with a ball. it to has lost its roots just like f1


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## cheekymonkey (Mar 15, 2008)

Kerr said:


> I think rallying and watching hill climbs are great fun too.
> 
> Never is there any other cars to actually race side by side with.
> 
> It is all about an appreciation of skill, noise, speed, fear, the cars and seeing the guys trying their hearts out.


there a different type of racing its all about the clock, but yet again rally has been spoiled from what it was by money and technology, there is a lot less skill then there use to be.


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## tzotzo (Nov 15, 2009)

suspal said:


> This was racing enough said
> 
> Senna vs Prost - 1988 French Grand Prix - YouTube


Is it only me that I wish Senna was alive, instead of watching "real" Racing?

Same sheet with group B. Real racing, more dead people.



cheekymonkey said:


> no need for gimmicks remove some down force, back to manual Gbox no traction control etc etc, take it back to how it was intended then you will get real racing :thumb:


Seriously? Aids are made to correct human error. And they actually work. 
Give me a real reason why someone has to risk his life in order to entertain someone.

For the record I don't watch F1 anymore but not because I don't see overtakes. It too commercialised, too many sponsors, and too much money involved.

For me its sport all about passion and skills. Since passion is lacking, skills don't really matter.

Writing this, I realised how much I miss montoya and villeneuve . 
And Mansell from the older days.


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## cheekymonkey (Mar 15, 2008)

tzotzo said:


> Is it only me that I wish Senna was alive, instead of watching "real" Racing?
> 
> Same sheet with group B. Real racing, more dead people.
> 
> ...


 yes the aids are there to correct mistakes and thats the problem a lot of the skill needed to drive f1 has been taken away by the aids. no one hols a gun to there head and makes them drive it is what they chose to do and they know the risks. Soldiers risk there life every day so we can be free yet make a pittance and f1 drivers are worried even when they make there millions and dont pay tax on it


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

cheekymonkey said:


> the money and the technology are 2 of the biggest problems with f1, they have taken it away from its roots. 20-30 years there were some rare moments in f1 but more important there were many great races, the sort of races you can never get now a days, back then it wasn't all to do with pits and qualifying. Man utd are the better team as there top of the premier league but more to the point the premier league is not what football use to be. its more like ballet with a ball. it to has lost its roots just like f1


The money and the technology is what sets F1 apart.

They have the money and the technology to make what is the fastest race cars on the planet.

They could also be significantly faster if they didn't hold them back.

Things used to be designed to the limit and barely last a race. Now they aren't allowed to do that.

Cars also used to be significantly more powerful. 25 years ago we had 1.5l cars capable of producing over 1000BHP and a big difference in power outputs between cars.

F1 has always been the same as far back as I can remember. Years of one team dominating before another takes over.


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## cheekymonkey (Mar 15, 2008)

Kerr said:


> The money and the technology is what sets F1 apart.
> 
> They have the money and the technology to make what is the fastest race cars on the planet.
> 
> ...


we will have to agree to disagree as the money and technology is what has spoiled f1, and there not the fastest cars ether. as for the power yes the bhp was high with the turbos but they were also a lot heavier. the only reason there not allowed to use things for just 1 race is because it was boring with no overtaking and the first car to the first corner won the race unless they messed up in a pit stop or broke down, and the reason for that was the technology they were able to use with all the money that was involved. 
There have been many years when it was not just 1 car dominating mansell v senna, schumacher v hill are just 2 off the top of my head


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

You could pick fault in every race series.

Some people appreciate Touring cars as there is always incidents. Many people don't like to see cars pushing each other about.

People enjoy Nascar, others think it is only going around in circles all day.

A few people on here go on about Moto GP but I really struggle with it.

I appreciate that motorbikes are very very quick and it can be nothing short of amazing fun riding one, but I don't view bikes like cars. They just don't excite me.

Watching the racing it appears the same thing over and over. The chasing rider brakes a little later and shows his front wheel. The rider ahead without challenge just lets him through.

It was the same thing over and over again. I didn't find it exciting at all and rather predictable to be honest.

However I'm sure if I understood bikes and had more of an understanding I might appreciate it more.

Each to their own and all that.


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## cheekymonkey (Mar 15, 2008)

Kerr said:


> You could pick fault in every race series.
> 
> Some people appreciate Touring cars as there is always incidents. Many people don't like to see cars pushing each other about.
> 
> ...


firstly i am not a biker but i just love the racing and i have never see a rider just let another through, but the difference is the technology in bike racing doesn't inter fear with overtaking. the bike behind has no wind to bother him unlike f1. It also take a lot more skill to riding 1 of those bike then it does to drive an f1,


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

cheekymonkey said:


> we will have to agree to disagree as the money and technology is what has spoiled f1, and there not the fastest cars ether. as for the power yes the bhp was high with the turbos but they were also a lot heavier. the only reason there not allowed to use things for just 1 race is because it was boring with no overtaking and the first car to the first corner won the race unless they messed up in a pit stop or broke down, and the reason for that was the technology they were able to use with all the money that was involved.
> There have been many years when it was not just 1 car dominating mansell v senna, schumacher v hill are just 2 off the top of my head


I would classify Schumacher and Hill as the modern era. Some of their cars had as many driving aids.

The only reason it was a competition was the fact there was a better driver in a poorer car.

The same reason Mansell was fighting Senna before Mansell them completely dominated a season after getting the best car by a long shot in F1.

5 of the last 7 years of F1 have gone down to the last race.
It was circumstances more than anything.


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

cheekymonkey said:


> firstly i am not a biker but i just love the racing and i have never see a rider just let another through, but the difference is the technology in bike racing doesn't inter fear with overtaking. the bike behind has no wind to bother him unlike f1. It also take a lot more skill to riding 1 of those bike then it does to drive an f1,


Doesn't superbike racing at the top level have traction control, ABS, launch control and other rider aids too?

I've never driven a F1 or a superbike so I can't comment what is harder. There seems to be a lot of people capable of driving a 200BHP bike fast but most people that try a F1 can't drive it.

The forces on a F1 driver make it physically impossible for all but a few.


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## cheekymonkey (Mar 15, 2008)

Kerr said:


> I would classify Schumacher and Hill as the modern era. Some of their cars had as many driving aids.
> 
> The only reason it was a competition was the fact there was a better driver in a poorer car.
> 
> ...


schumacher and hill wasnt the modern era, cars then could over take without gimmicks, infact the modern type cars started when schumacher was at ferrari. You are right about a better driver being in a poorer car, but with todays technology it doesnt matter, it is always the better car that wins the driver makes minimal if any difference.


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

cheekymonkey said:


> schumacher and hill wasnt the modern era, cars then could over take without gimmicks, infact the modern type cars started when schumacher was at ferrari. You are right about a better driver being in a poorer car, but with todays technology it doesnt matter, it is always the better car that wins the driver makes minimal if any difference.


Cars had active suspension, ABS, traction control long before that.

The driver makes a huge difference. You just can't plonk any old idiot in a F1 and he will win.

All the best drivers were always significantly faster in lesser cars.

Anyways going to sleep as got work in the morning.

Night XX


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## cheekymonkey (Mar 15, 2008)

Kerr said:


> Cars had active suspension, ABS, traction control long before that.
> 
> The driver makes a huge difference. You just can't plonk any old idiot in a F1 and he will win.
> 
> ...


No you cant put just anyone behind the wheel but any half decent driver with the best car will win as a lot of the technology has taken away some of the importance of the driver. any way good night


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## RD55 DUN (Dec 30, 2008)

F1 is “supposed” to be the pinnacle of F1 racing.

These guys are the best in the world and have the racers instinct within them, to be told to hold off for the final part of a race because of your track position is something I feel must get to them pretty hard, to be knowingly faster than the car in front and not allowed to overtake.

Im not a vettel fan, primarily as he is so smug and up his backside, but its clear that he went against team orders and could have quite easily wiped out both cars. Vettel didn’t seem too bothered about the fact, but Hamilton looked pretty glum and knows he shouldn’t have been on the podium.

I know the teams to this to secure as many points, reduce wear on the car…but the cars should be flat out from start to finish imo.


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## Beatman (Jun 6, 2010)

RD55 I do agree ref drivers and the way they come across, but this is secondary to the main point that this is F1 racing so say top of the Motorsport tree. But when it's controlled from the bench and drivers are told to hold station this isn't sport but a manufactured show. They should drop the two way radios and let them race, if tyres or fuel run out so be it, and hopefully more fun for the diminishing number of fans they have left!


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## alan hanson (May 21, 2008)

I hate Vettel and wish Webber had given him a low blow just as vettel did to him. Sefo agree there to race otherwise the podium and points at the end mean nothing what vettel did could be the difference at the end.


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## wayne_w (Jan 25, 2007)

It isn't just about the drivers ability anymore..
Some of the newer drivers in the smaller teams are only there because of the sponsorship & funding that they bring with them. I'm sure the BBC team of Jake, Eddie & David said something about this & how it would affect the sport in years to come..


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

wayne_w said:


> It isn't just about the drivers ability anymore..
> Some of the newer drivers in the smaller teams are only there because of the sponsorship & funding that they bring with them. I'm sure the BBC team of Jake, Eddie & David said something about this & how it would affect the sport in years to come..


Happens in all sports.

Teams need money and poorer teams will take a driver who will bring money to the team.

Certain football teams sign players for marketing too.


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## nichol4s (Jun 16, 2012)

cheekymonkey said:


> no need for gimmicks remove some down force, back to manual Gbox no traction control etc etc, take it back to how it was intended then you will get real racing :thumb:


I didnt think they were allowed traction control


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## nichol4s (Jun 16, 2012)

Or ABS


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## cheekymonkey (Mar 15, 2008)

well there going the right way if theres no TC or ABS, lets hope they carry on until they can actually race again and overtake without needing gimmicks :thumb:


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## possul (Nov 14, 2008)

ABS and TCS haven't been used since 2008 iirc. Maybe wrong
Red bull did have an ECU map which which reduced power under full throttle for starting of the grid


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## Johnny_B (Feb 3, 2013)

hopefully seb will get banned for a race or has serious karma this season hopefully Christian horner figures out a worthy punishment


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## nichol4s (Jun 16, 2012)

possul said:


> ABS and TCS haven't been used since 2008 iirc. Maybe wrong
> Red bull did have an ECU map which which reduced power under full throttle for starting of the grid


Thats right. It was last year. The FIA made renault change red bulls engine mapping pre race (which they winged about lol)


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## S63 (Jan 5, 2007)

Johnny_B said:


> hopefully seb will get banned for a race or has serious karma this season hopefully Christian horner figures out a worthy punishment


On what grounds could he be banned?


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## possul (Nov 14, 2008)

I'd like to see Hamilton win.
If not him, webber, alonso, and think Rosberg is doing quite well.
Far to early to tell though


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## possul (Nov 14, 2008)

Johnny_B said:


> hopefully seb will get banned for a race or has serious karma this season hopefully Christian horner figures out a worthy punishment


He'll get a smack on the wrist at the most.
No.1 driver remember


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## cheekymonkey (Mar 15, 2008)

i hope seb gets a medal he was doing what people have paid to see and thats racing not a parade


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## Beatman (Jun 6, 2010)

Well said, it is racing not an agreed lineup to save cars. Race to win


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## Will_G (Jan 23, 2012)

cheekymonkey said:


> i hope seb gets a medal he was doing what people have paid to see and thats racing not a parade


Would he have got past webber if webber hadnt turned down his engine? Its not racing


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## cheekymonkey (Mar 15, 2008)

Will_G said:


> Would he have got past webber if webber hadnt turned down his engine? Its not racing


do you think the crowd who paid to watch cared it was the best bit of the race,glad they got something for there money. In most sports doing what the teams did would be classed as result fixing and would be deemed as cheating,why should it be any different in f1?. as for webber i wonder how far he had turned down his engine?. From what i saw i dont think he had,he made it really hard for seb to pass even when he was using the DRS


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## Johnny_B (Feb 3, 2013)

S63 said:


> On what grounds could he be banned?


on the grounds hes employed by redbull racing as a team driver to drive there cars - he disobeyed team orders .. them grounds ?


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## cheekymonkey (Mar 15, 2008)

Johnny_B said:


> on the grounds hes employed by redbull racing as a team driver to drive there cars - he disobeyed team orders .. them grounds ?


So you think someone should be banned for doing what he is employed to do


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## Johnny_B (Feb 3, 2013)

cheekymonkey said:


> So you think someone should be banned for doing what he is employed to do


say your employed as a part of a team and disobeyed your team orders .. youd expect to get off scott free every time u do it? its exactly the same principles he disobeyed team orders and just like in any other job he deserves the punishment that comes with it


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## cheekymonkey (Mar 15, 2008)

Johnny_B said:


> say your employed as a part of a team and disobeyed your team orders .. youd expect to get off scott free every time u do it? its exactly the same principles he disobeyed team orders and just like in any other job he deserves the punishment that comes with it


he is employed to win races first and foremost and he did his job and won the race. dont go for all this team rubbish if it was a team sport then both seb and webber would be world champs.


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## nichol4s (Jun 16, 2012)

cheekymonkey said:


> he is employed to win races first and foremost and he did his job and won the race. dont go for all this team rubbish if it was a team sport then both seb and webber would be world champs.


Ive got to agree with you on that cheekymonkey. Only problem is the team care more about the team points than the driver points because thats where they get all there money from by being as high in the constructor championship as they can get. If they had of collided with each other then they would had lost out big time, both drivers and the team. More money equals better development and a better team. Its a shame they've legalised teamorders but thats just how it is im afraid.
It made good viewing watching the tension and the conversion they had after the race. I dont think vettel would dare do it again. He's took alot of flack for it.


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## Coops (Apr 26, 2008)

The fact that Vettel passed Webber is irrelevant, so is this whole debate over team orders. Webber won't care in the slighest that Vettel overtook him - the issue surrounds the fact that Vettel ignored a direct instruction from his employer and therefore (as in the real world!) should be dealt with accordingly.

The lastest news from Red Bull is:



Red Bull Racing said:


> Following Sunday's race in Malaysia, there is obviously a lot of opinion and comment.
> 
> As advised on Sunday, this situation will be dealt with internally.
> 
> ...


In other words, Horner has no backbone, can't deal with, won't deal with it, we'll brush it under the carpet. Dr Helmut loves Seb.


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## Johnny_B (Feb 3, 2013)

@coops .. Did you hear dr helmut bellend back tracking at sundays f1? It was tue best thing i heard from a german .. Licked marks **** and then proceeded to say "we didnt have excat team order like mercedes" what a contradicting nazi


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## Coops (Apr 26, 2008)

The guy is a fool and clearly loves Vettel - really leaves the whole team in a right situation. Webber is not going to forget this in a hurry.


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## Johnny_B (Feb 3, 2013)

In the same boat mercedes does fall into this morality subject .. Should brawn have let rosberg and hamilton race or is its mercs way of showing favoritisim early on in the season ?


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## adlem (Jul 6, 2008)

Coops said:


> The lastest news from Red Bull is:
> 
> In other words, Horner has no backbone, can't deal with, won't deal with it, we'll brush it under the carpet. Dr Helmut loves Seb.


Of course they will, Vettel is the Red Bull prodigy and undisputed team favourite


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## adlem (Jul 6, 2008)

Johnny_B said:


> In the same boat mercedes does fall into this morality subject .. Should brawn have let rosberg and hamilton race or is its mercs way of showing favoritisim early on in the season ?


It's F1 and they're only doing what teams have always done. I would have let Rosberg go but I think Hamilton negotiated number 1 status in his move and I think they wanted him to finish well after being over a second slower than Nico in Australia


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## cheekymonkey (Mar 15, 2008)

Just think if seb wins this years title by 2 points they will all be saying he was right. then again just think if webber looses the title by 1 point


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## Sirmally2 (Feb 28, 2011)

The overall thing is Vettel is an Employee of Red Bull Racing, and Christian Horner is the guy managing that team.

He give clear instructions to Vettel NOT to pass Webber and to stay in formation, something which he blatently ignored. This now makes Vettel look like an arrogant git (Which it has shown over time that he is) and has undermined the authority that Christian Horner has over the team.

If he does nothing, it makes him look scared of Vettel. He needs to re-establish himself as firm but fair and think a one race suspension for disregarding team orders should be called for here.


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## Nicholas (Jan 9, 2012)

Have to agree Sirmally2 Vettel has put Horner in a very difficult position realy has undermined him as the boss, the constructors title is very important to the teams hence why teams end the race short and just want both cars home. Is that good for the sport fans no but still enjoyed the race though and looking forward to the rest of the season!


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## Rickyboy (Oct 14, 2008)

I don't know if this has been touched on in this thread, but do the actions of Vettel of late not fuel the rumour of his departure from RedBull to Ferrari for the 2014 season?


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## adlem (Jul 6, 2008)

Rickyboy said:


> I don't know if this has been touched on in this thread, but do the actions of Vettel of late not fuel the rumour of his departure from RedBull to Ferrari for the 2014 season?


I was led to believe that Ferrari only have the option to talk to him about 2014, no actual rumours of him moving. Add to that Luca Di Montezemelo has always said Ferrari comes first and no driver is ever bigger than the team, the drivers drive for Ferrari first and then themselves - Vettel doesn't fit that


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