# Supernatural Hologramming?



## GaryST220 (Oct 6, 2008)

I use to use Megs #26 paste wax and never had any problems, I then upgraded to Supernatural. While it does leave a fantastic shine, I am forever finding holograms the day after buffering.

They don't appear to be there when I first buff off the wax, but then a day later in bright sun you can see them and I have to wait till the next time I wash the car to remove them. 

I spend extra time looking out with excess wax after I have finished but it always appears I have done a good job. Am I doing something wrong?


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## Clark @ PB (Mar 1, 2006)

It's just the wax "gassing". It's a common thing, hence why I always try to make sure I get a wipe down done a good few hours after waxing. even then you'll maybe still get some over the next 12-24 hours


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## swiftshine (Apr 17, 2008)

I have only seen wax holograms after too thick a coating of wax or leaving it too long to cure.
Are you using a damp applicator pad?


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## Auto Finesse (Jan 10, 2007)

As Clark said the wax will sweat for around 12-24 hours of application, it depends how many coats and how thick it was layed down, to how bad it will be, a wipe down with some LT is key


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## GaryST220 (Oct 6, 2008)

Ah I see, thanks for that.

So how do professional detailers deal with this, if they charge £xxx to do a major correction on a clients car; only for it to have holograms the next day?

So buff off, then buff again a bit later with Last Touch? :thumb:


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## Auto Finesse (Jan 10, 2007)

GaryST220 said:


> Ah I see, thanks for that.
> 
> So how do professional detailers deal with this, if they charge £xxx to do a major correction on a clients car; only for it to have holograms the next day?
> 
> So buff off, then buff again a bit later with Last Touch? :thumb:


Make sure we give it a wipe down


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## Clark @ PB (Mar 1, 2006)

GaryST220 said:


> Ah I see, thanks for that.
> 
> So how do professional detailers deal with this, if they charge £xxx to do a major correction on a clients car; only for it to have holograms the next day?
> 
> So buff off, then buff again a bit later with Last Touch? :thumb:


A thorough wipe down will ensure you only get very slight hologramming, and if the detailer is any good then they'll have ensured they lay down a nice thin coat anyways :thumb:

To be honest it's only in the hot summer months where i notice it most and that's on solid blacks or reds


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## blr123 (Oct 26, 2005)

Gary if it's the wax being applied to thick then what might help you to get a thin layer is.........having applied wax to the applicator pad "dab" the pad around the area you are waxing that way you loose the tendancy to top up the applicator pad when there's no need as you will be picking up more wax as you go.....hope that makes sense :thumb:

Bryan


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## GaryST220 (Oct 6, 2008)

Cheers, I shall try and change my technique next time. Is it best to using a damp applicator pad?


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## Dodo Factory (Apr 11, 2007)

Nope... damp applicator won't help from a technical point of view... outgassing is insufficient curing and water/humdity doesn't help.

Allow Supernatural to fully cure in thin layers, maybe leave 30mins to an hour to fully cure before buffing. Then buff carefully, refolding the microfibre regularly. When it looks like it has been buffed, buff once again. (The oils are difficult to remove from the paint, which is a side effect of what makes it work well. Something like Diamond White is a bit more user friendly as it is not such a specialist wax.)

I would refrain from using a QD if possible as they can sometimes react with a wax and there should be no need unless the wax layer has picked up some minor contamination.

Hope this is helpful
DF


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## Auto Finesse (Jan 10, 2007)

Really Dom?, Not questioning you at all here Just want to know your thoughts on it as you guys make the stuff and know more about it than any of us, what about a QD such as Last touch that dont really lay any thing down etc?


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## buja (Apr 22, 2008)

30 mins to an hour before buffing off ? 
thought the label instructions say 5-10 mins is enough...hmm


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## CleanYourCar (Jan 23, 2006)

You usually find with the more natural, high end waxes they do tend to hologram a bit more. It's usually down to the low VOC solvents used not flashing off as quickly so the wax takes longer to cure. 

So I tend to buff off and then leave for another 5 mins before buffing again with a fresh microfibre.


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## swiftshine (Apr 17, 2008)

Dodo Factory said:


> Nope... damp applicator won't help from a technical point of view... outgassing is insufficient curing and water/humdity doesn't help.
> 
> Allow Supernatural to fully cure in thin layers, maybe leave 30mins to an hour to fully cure before buffing. Then buff carefully, refolding the microfibre regularly. When it looks like it has been buffed, buff once again. (The oils are difficult to remove from the paint, which is a side effect of what makes it work well. Something like Diamond White is a bit more user friendly as it is not such a specialist wax.)
> 
> ...


So no giving the applicator pad a wee spritz of qd before applying?


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## Clark @ PB (Mar 1, 2006)

swiftshine said:


> So no giving the applicator pad a wee spritz of qd before applying?


You can if you like


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## swiftshine (Apr 17, 2008)

Clark said:


> You can if you like


Thanks Do you?

Just wondered what Dom thought as head dodo after that post. I found it really helped get a nice thin layer down after I was given that tip.:thumb:


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## Clark @ PB (Mar 1, 2006)

I dampen the pad with some waxes. I tend to spritz some field glaze on a german applicator when first applying Vintage and i find it sometimes helps to dampen it when using Midnight Sun. Most other waxes i dont bother though


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## swiftshine (Apr 17, 2008)

So you just go on a wax by wax basis then?
Is it something you can tell if you will need before you use it, or just down to experience of using them deciding you need it next time?


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## Clark @ PB (Mar 1, 2006)

I think you're making too big a deal from it mate lol.

I just do it to help "prime" the pad initially to save the pad grabbing the paint when i begin waxing. After a panel or two you hardly need to top up the pad at all to do the whole car


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## gixxer600k4 (Aug 18, 2008)

personally i never use a pad when it comes to the hard waxes, i find using my hand and warming it up makes it a lot easier to create a thin layer. its much easier to put on and much easier to buff off. and as said on here, i will buff mine off twice after waxing and leave it a good few hours or leave it till next day and give it another quick wipe down!


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## Clark @ PB (Mar 1, 2006)

gixxer600k4 said:


> personally i never use a pad when it comes to the hard waxes, i find using my hand and warming it up makes it a lot easier to create a thin layer. its much easier to put on and much easier to buff off. and as said on here, i will buff mine off twice after waxing and leave it a good few hours or leave it till next day and give it another quick wipe down!


I find the harder waxes are nicer to get a thinner layer on an applicator pad lol!

Blackfire's midnight sun is really hard and you can always get a nice even layer with that. Personally i hate applying with bare hands 

Just shows, everyone is different


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## gixxer600k4 (Aug 18, 2008)

exactly, it all depends on what you can work with! i just find with my hands i can feel it more, but its horrible and takes ages to wash off as you then have water beading on your hands!!!!!!


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## HeavenlyDetail (Sep 22, 2006)

I have to agree i find hand application gives me a feelgood factor but pad is always 25% less wasteage and 25% better coverage as herringboneing the wax takes me forever by hand to ensure 100% coverage...

I must admit id like more info on the qd side of things as i always finish my car then rebuff with a clean cloth turning every panel and finish with crystal mist weekdays and z8 meets and weekends.


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## swiftshine (Apr 17, 2008)

Clark said:


> I think you're making too big a deal from it mate lol.
> 
> I just do it to help "prime" the pad initially to save the pad grabbing the paint when i begin waxing. After a panel or two you hardly need to top up the pad at all to do the whole car


Maybes aye, maybes naw

It's just a pain in the **** to spend some limited time on the car for it to look crap after it is waxed due to various issues as above. Seeing as the opportunity to pick your brain presented itself I thought I would take it to help myself with different waxes and anyone else who might need it:thumb:


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## Auto Finesse (Jan 10, 2007)

IMO Putting wax on with bare hands has some draw backs, 1 it tends to go on far to thick 2 my hands are not that soft (using a rotary all day long and cleaning parts of car only a mechanic would usually see has not helped) so i could case marring etc when applying the wax


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## HeavenlyDetail (Sep 22, 2006)

James i have hands like a wuss

Agree though dependant on paintwork , i wouldnt bother doing a type -r by hand.


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## Auto Finesse (Jan 10, 2007)

vxrmarc said:


> James i have hands like a wuss
> 
> Agree though dependant on paintwork , i wouldnt bother doing a type -r by hand.


Match the rest of ya then ay :lol::lol::lol:

Hows that old bannger of yours doing, i still have not seen those Pics of it yet.


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## Alan W (May 11, 2006)

Dodo Factory said:


> I would refrain from using a QD if possible as they can sometimes react with a wax and there should be no need unless the wax layer has picked up some minor contamination.
> 
> Hope this is helpful
> DF


I've always suspected this may be possible *if using a different make of QD to the wax* but never really been able to prove it. At last someone who's of the same opinion as myself! 

I just hope we're not both proved wrong! :lol:

Alan W


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## HeavenlyDetail (Sep 22, 2006)

You will  I,ll ring you soon.


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## HeavenlyDetail (Sep 22, 2006)

Alan W said:


> I've always suspected this may be possible *if using a different make of QD to the wax* but never really been able to prove it. At last someone who's of the same opinion as myself!
> 
> I just hope we're not both proved wrong! :lol:
> 
> Alan W


I am unsure on the proper chemistry behind for instance supernatural and last touch but my opinion is that a wax like supernatural once fully cured being wiped over with a product like last touch which is probably 75% pure water with contamination taken out would do little harm at all?


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## Alan W (May 11, 2006)

vxrmarc said:


> I am unsure on the proper chemistry behind for instance supernatural and last touch but my opinion is that a wax like supernatural once fully cured being wiped over with a product like last touch which is probably 75% pure water with contamination taken out would do little harm at all?


I understand what you'e saying Marc but I'm still unsure. Most QD's have light cleaning properties to cope with fingerprints, grease, deposits etc and it's these cleaning agents that may well remove just a small amount of cured wax protection.

Alan W


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## Dave KG (Feb 23, 2006)

vxrmarc said:


> I am unsure on the proper chemistry behind for instance supernatural and last touch but my opinion is that a wax like supernatural once fully cured being wiped over with a product like last touch which is probably 75% pure water with contamination taken out would do little harm at all?


I am also of this opinion, especially if the wax has fully cured... its often said that wax when fully cured is very hard, and indeed it is - this is what offers a degree of protection... Light cleansers (not the same as found in a paint cleaner) in a quick detailer I cannot see do any harm to this wax layer, especially as we have been using them for many years to remove light dust and finger prints from cars that have been waxed or sealed.

Now, perhaps silicones or similar may act to smear slightly and may also react with a wax when uncured, but I would be inclined to believe it would have little affect on a fully cured wax layer... this certainly seems to bourne out in practice from my experience of using a variety of QDs with a wide variety of waxes.


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## gioprivatemove (Nov 5, 2008)

very interesting discussion...
so what is the best way to wax your car? is it one way motion or circular motion?


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## Dodo Factory (Apr 11, 2007)

buja said:


> 30 mins to an hour before buffing off ?
> thought the label instructions say 5-10 mins is enough...hmm


It can take as little as that, but it depends how thin the layer and if atmospheric conditions are making hologramming more likely due to slow curing... anywhere humid can double or treble curing times. We label them for a UK climate. You can remove them earlier but wax hologramming is more likely as it is a symptom of uncured wax residue.


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## Dodo Factory (Apr 11, 2007)

james b said:


> Really Dom?, Not questioning you at all here Just want to know your thoughts on it as you guys make the stuff and know more about it than any of us, what about a QD such as Last touch that dont really lay any thing down etc?


I really don't see the point of a normal QD after layering wax... it is usually adding very little (sometimes less than 1% solids) and the same benefit would be gained from a spritz of water and another buff!

Spray sealants like Z8 add something, but allow the wax to fully cure as the solvents could slightly dissolve pre-existing product coatings. A little dissolving is good for keying the sealant into the wax surface, but too much could thin the wax layer.


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## Dodo Factory (Apr 11, 2007)

swiftshine said:


> So no giving the applicator pad a wee spritz of qd before applying?


If it works for you, why not. But it isn't necessary from a technical point of view. It is like dipping the paint brush in thinners before dipping it into the Dulux. No real technical benefit but may suit your technique.


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## Dodo Factory (Apr 11, 2007)

vxrmarc said:


> I am unsure on the proper chemistry behind for instance supernatural and last touch but my opinion is that a wax like supernatural once fully cured being wiped over with a product like last touch which is probably 75% pure water with contamination taken out would do little harm at all?


It is more likely a higher percentage than that... QDs are normally very low solids content. It shouldn't do any harm as wax has cured as you say, and may even have a benefit... usually silicone will be laid down for extra gloss and lubricity... but as I mentioned earlier, a water spritz and rebuff could feel like it is doing something as well.


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## Dodo Factory (Apr 11, 2007)

gioprivatemove said:


> very interesting discussion...
> so what is the best way to wax your car? is it one way motion or circular motion?


Circular motion for applying polishes where they need to be repetitively applied to the same area to have an effect... with waxes you just need even coverage, so straight lines cover faster.


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## gioprivatemove (Nov 5, 2008)

Dodo Factory said:


> Circular motion for applying polishes where they need to be repetitively applied to the same area to have an effect... with waxes you just need even coverage, so straight lines cover faster.


Thank you Dodo Factory, i use Blue Velvet and Purple Haze. excellent products...


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## Dodo Factory (Apr 11, 2007)

Thanks buddy


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## Auto Finesse (Jan 10, 2007)

Yer i see what your saying Dom, to be fair the final wipe down is a must for me on a detail, im not looking to add any thing its usually to check around and make sure there is no bits i have missed etc, also i apply the trim dressing after wax so it helps to make sure there is none of that on the body work etc, As long as it dont compromise the finish of the wax layer im happy


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## buja (Apr 22, 2008)

Dodo Factory said:


> It can take as little as that, but it depends how thin the layer and if atmospheric conditions are making hologramming more likely due to slow curing... anywhere humid can double or treble curing times. We label them for a UK climate. You can remove them earlier but wax hologramming is more likely as it is a symptom of uncured wax residue.


Dom, so in hot humid conditions, would you say something like 30 mins or so before buffing off ? then after a while , then do a second buff for any missed spots ?

also , will the good old finger swipe test be good in this case to test if its ready ? dont want to be leaving it too long and becoming even harder to buff in the end...


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## Dodo Factory (Apr 11, 2007)

james b said:


> Yer i see what your saying Dom, to be fair the final wipe down is a must for me on a detail, im not looking to add any thing its usually to check around and make sure there is no bits i have missed etc, also i apply the trim dressing after wax so it helps to make sure there is none of that on the body work etc, As long as it dont compromise the finish of the wax layer im happy


See what you mean JB... it does make a lot of sense from a practical point of view. Just not an essential step from a technical one, if you see what I mean.

QDs have sometimes been quite cheap and nasty products compared to the LSPs underneath (again, technically speaking, although it has changed with hardcore 'QDs' like Z8) so it used to amuse me when people slapped them on over a good wax. It was like someone going to Gordon Ramsey's restaurant and then topping their steak with loads of Heinz Ketchup. With quality QDs like Field Glaze, Megs Ultimate etc, there is little danger of compromise and even an opportunity to slightly improve, so this doesn't really apply.


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## Dodo Factory (Apr 11, 2007)

buja said:


> Dom, so in hot humid conditions, would you say something like 30 mins or so before buffing off ? then after a while , then do a second buff for any missed spots ?
> 
> also , will the good old finger swipe test be good in this case to test if its ready ? dont want to be leaving it too long and becoming even harder to buff in the end...


Yes, always best to use visual clues than label instuctions due to variables... experimentation in local conditions is key. If it works after 5 mins, great... if it needs an hour then so be it. I'd hate to categorically say 30 mins as I could never be sure, but longer the better is the rule in humid environments. The water in the air prevents outgassing at the same rate.

The second buff is important... it rarely gets removed first buff as it likes to remain on the surface as much as it can...

Don't worry about caking on. It shouldn't be hard to buff, even after an hour or so, as it is a bit wetter than some other waxes as a recipe. But again, trial is the key. It will buff easily with a water spritz if necessary anyway.


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## buja (Apr 22, 2008)

on the topic about second buff, does it mean buffing the total surface area of the car, or is it just second buff only on the parts where the wax resurfaces ?


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## Auto Finesse (Jan 10, 2007)

Dodo Factory said:


> See what you mean JB... it does make a lot of sense from a practical point of view. Just not an essential step from a technical one, if you see what I mean.
> 
> QDs have sometimes been quite cheap and nasty products compared to the LSPs underneath (again, technically speaking, although it has changed with hardcore 'QDs' like Z8) so it used to amuse me when people slapped them on over a good wax. It was like someone going to Gordon Ramsey's restaurant and then topping their steak with loads of Heinz Ketchup. With quality QDs like Field Glaze, Megs Ultimate etc, there is little danger of compromise and even an opportunity to slightly improve, so this doesn't really apply.


Yer, you know im not really keen on putting cheap gloss enhancers and stuff on a good wax finish, i use LT cut 1:1 as the leaves the least behind.

What we all really need is that crazy beading QD of yours to put on top of Sn


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## s2kpaul (Jul 27, 2006)

I sold my flat black celica cause of this, It use to drive me crazy!!! in the end i waited about 30 odd minutes before i went round with a very slighty damp mf to make it better. Now ive swapped to a red leon i dont get it any more


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## Dodo Factory (Apr 11, 2007)

buja said:


> on the topic about second buff, does it mean buffing the total surface area of the car, or is it just second buff only on the parts where the wax resurfaces ?


up to you but no harm doing it all if time


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