# Edging the DA... A Game Changer



## Jon Leidgen (May 5, 2011)

Before I get going I want to thank Kevin Brown for taking the time to work with me via phone and sending me backing plates to try out. He is a real class act and one of the most genuinely nice guys in this industry. He was always willing to help and take my calls and answer my questions. He went above and beyond anything he needed to do for me. Also I want to thank Nick Chapman for mentioning his technique and piquing my interest enough to follow up with it more. I would also like the thank Dana (Asphalt Rocket) for reading it over for me.

This thread has been a work in progress for a semi-long period of time. It started with reading a review of the MF system by Nick Chapman. He mentioned a special technique he used with the system to get better cut. 
He said


> "I'm a bit different then most detailers out there. I don't work an area x amount of passes, then move onto the next area. I tend to work things inch by inch, using the outer edge of the pads surface. Then when I'm satisfied with the cutting results, I'll lay the pad flat and do a couple of light passes across the area I just worked, without using anymore product."


This really intrigued me so I would dabble with it here and there. I would occasionally run into a scratch where I would try the "edging" and it would literally vanish before my eyes.
Later on I would reach out to Kevin Brown. I was reading his stuff and on one car I wasn't getting the system to finish out. Kevin was nice enough to work with me via phone to try and trouble-shoot the issues.

I then started to ask Kevin more and more questions and mention the edging technique. So we talk about that for a while and Kevin asked if I would do a write up about it. Most don't know this technique because we are always taught to keep the pad flat with a traditional DA. This might not be new to some of you but others like me it was/will be a game changer thus why I wanted to share it with others.

The science behind it:
As I was discussing it with Kevin he put it very simply and really sums it up best. He said it boils down to pressure and area. If you think about it when you edge the pad you cut the area of the pad doing the work down drastically and then you increase the pressure so you have a concentrated swirl killing machine. Kevin could go much more in-depth than I could in this but this is a quick short version.

Implementation:
How I do it is when I come across a scratch or RIDS that needs a little more than the correction I am getting from the normal pass I edge the pad. I properly prime the pad (Very Important IMO) and then start to work. I apply compound to my pad like normal and start to work and I would on a normal section doing a normal pass. Now that I have the product over the paint I lift or tilt my pad concentrating it on the scratch. I work back and forth keeping the pad moving (arm speed) slow but always moving. I keep an eye on the defect and most of the time I can see it practically vanish in front of my eyes. As far as speed, sometimes I leave it at the normal setting but on tougher defects I crank the speed up to 6 on my G110 and use more pressure. I don't have a hard fast rule on when I alter the speed I just do it by feel. After the defect is removed I take the DA back to the normal working speed and finish the section with a few traditional passes to remove any hazing from the edging.

Now here is where Kevin came in (again) and was talking about taking the backing plate all the way to the edge of the pad. This will create even pressure across the entire pad which should produce more consistent results and also increase the effectiveness of the pad and liquid. Kevin was nice enough to send me the backing plate that he personally cut down to the exact size of the pad. This was a blessing for me because I could never cut a backing plate down and have it look as nice as he made it.

Below in the various cars you will see both the "normal" backing plate and the "cut down" backing plate so I will also be comparing these in this write-up.










The Mirka BP is very firm









The Megs BP is more flexible









Here is the Mirka on a MF cutting disc


















It was about 4pm on a Friday and the mail man (oh how I love the mail man these days… Santa is losing his job) dropped off a package with two backing plates Kevin sent me. You can see the difference between the two. By 5:30 that night I had the sanding discs on a car and testing the new backing plates.

You will see I was working on a suburban that had the whole passenger side repainted. The body shop didn't do the best at finishing it… I don't think they did anything at all. The orange peel was bad and the reflection was just poor so out comes the sand paper and MF system.

The Mirka BP that Kevin cut goes right to the edge of the pad and is very firm. This promotes even pressure and firm pressure on the discs giving the pads more cut and better finishing. I could absolutely tell a difference between the "recommended" backing plate and the one that goes to the edge.

Orange Peel before:


















During (with only 1500 grit discs and removed via MF system:









After Sanding and Compounding:

















The next test subject is a White Lincoln MKX. I took paint readings of the car and it had healthy amounts of clear on it so I knew I would be safe to scrape the hood with some 800 grit sand paper.

Before:




























Now Afters:



















It was really hard to get pictures on the white paint but I assure you they came out. 85% of the defects came out in the first pass, but there was just a little residual marking left which required a second pass.

1000 grit dry sand marks on Toyota Highlander:



















After Removal:










Bird Poop Etching on Lexus:










Gone:










In conclusion, this new technique IMO can really narrow the correction gap between the DA and the Rotary. I have had amazing success with this and think that most with polishing experience can quickly learn this as well. I also think that changing up the buffing between D300 and 105 can really help maximize the cutting potential. I strongly urge those with the MF System to try this and see for yourself. I know I was amazed with it and I think you will be too.

If you have any questions, comments, or criticisms please throw them out there. I know this paper isn't perfect, there are many things that I would have liked to have in here but I will try to update it as more things come across my path. I want as much feedback as possible from everyone here.


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## CrA!G (Mar 21, 2008)

Nice write up Jon.

I used my G220v2 on a test door yesterday for the first time! and was happy with the results I got over light scratches (going to push it harder on some deep scratches to see the full potential) and your way seems a good one to do so.

This sounds a really interesting method, what microfiber pads are they? Also is it sandpaper on the DA used to get into some of these bits?

Sorry for the newbie questions,
Craig


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## CraigQQ (Jan 20, 2011)

i have tested the microfibre system with megs 205 (the car had thin paint so didn't chase the deep marks) and i was very pleased..

good write up.. i must try 105 at some point.


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## Jon Leidgen (May 5, 2011)

CrA!G said:


> Nice write up Jon.
> 
> I used my G220v2 on a test door yesterday for the first time! and was happy with the results I got over light scratches (going to push it harder on some deep scratches to see the full potential) and your way seems a good one to do so.
> 
> ...


Well actually in the testing posted here all of the "defects" were made by me. I wanted to give people a good idea of what it is capable of. Who knows how deep a random scratch is but people can understand 1000 grit or 800 grit sand paper marks.

The microfiber pads are the Megs MF system cutting pads.

I urge you to try it. I think you will be pleasantly supprised, but when you do post back here and share your findings.



CraigQQ said:


> i have tested the microfibre system with megs 205 (the car had thin paint so didn't chase the deep marks) and i was very pleased..
> 
> good write up.. i must try 105 at some point.


Definitely try 105 or the correction compound (d300). When you run into some deeper stuff give this method a try and let everyone know how it works for you.

I really want everyone to try for themselves, dont just take my word for it.


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## Dave KG (Feb 23, 2006)

A very interesting test, thank you for sharing  Good results achieved. We have been "edging" the microfibre system with D300 compound (videos and results of this to be posted up soon  ) and getting good correction of the deeper marks as well, as without the edging the product system does seem to struggle a bit more with deeper marks. Interesting to see 105 and 205 here too, something we have yet to try our properly on microfibre though we highly rate them on foam and wool


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## Jon Leidgen (May 5, 2011)

Dave KG said:


> A very interesting test, thank you for sharing  Good results achieved. We have been "edging" the microfibre system with D300 compound (videos and results of this to be posted up soon  ) and getting good correction of the deeper marks as well, as without the edging the product system does seem to struggle a bit more with deeper marks. Interesting to see 105 and 205 here too, something we have yet to try our properly on microfibre though we highly rate them on foam and wool


Thank you, I look forward to your posts and your findings. I cant wait for you to try 105 on the microfiber pads. Sometimes I prime the pad with d300 and then use 105. This keeps the dust much more at bay. But the dust with priming and using 105 isnt bad either.


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## Dave KG (Feb 23, 2006)

Jon Leidgen said:


> *Well actually in the testing posted here all of the "defects" were made by me*. I wanted to give people a good idea of what it is capable of. Who knows how deep a random scratch is but people can understand 1000 grit or 800 grit sand paper marks.
> 
> I really want everyone to try for themselves, dont just take my word for it.


I have to ask here... how did you create bird poo etching on the Lexus?!  :lol:

On topic, I'll be sure to post up my findings of 105 and 205 on microfibre too - these two are products which really are changing the game of machine polishing and showing you you don't need massive ranges of polishes each for slightly different tasks... Meguiars are getting good at moving the game forward


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## Jon Leidgen (May 5, 2011)

Dave KG said:


> I have to ask here... how did you create bird poo etching on the Lexus?!  :lol:
> 
> On topic, I'll be sure to post up my findings of 105 and 205 on microfibre too - these two are products which really are changing the game of machine polishing and showing you you don't need massive ranges of polishes each for slightly different tasks... Meguiars are getting good at moving the game forward


I got the bird poo with some duct tape, pellet rifle, and some bourbon 

I really like the nondiminishing abrasive products.


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## Miglior (Feb 12, 2006)

Ive used 105 with the micro fibre pads a lot and its very good for the real heavy stuff


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## Jon Leidgen (May 5, 2011)

Miglior said:


> Ive used 105 with the micro fibre pads a lot and its very good for the real heavy stuff


105 and the MF pads really do cut well


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## Kevin Brown (May 10, 2008)

*Great write-up!!*

Congratulations on your first, in-depth, out of the box write-up, Jon. 
Your excitement comes through loud and clear.

*If you are going to do more write-ups like this... what else can we send you to write about?! * :lol:

I sure appreciate all the nice things you wrote about me. I am always happy to help a guy that wants to learn.

For those of you that wish to try these things Jon has written about (and more than a handful of guys have been doing the tilt thing for years).... take ownership of your results, and be ready to smile REAL BIG if all goes as planned! :rockon

Time for another great discussion.
*Your write-up actually discusses two things:

1. An "edging" technique.

2. A backing plate modification that can really affect polishing performance.*

*Edging*.
This is nothing new to the *rotary guys*. Whereas we typically read that we need to keep our pads completely flat (or parallel to the surface) while we buff _mainly_ to minimize swirling and excessive heat generation, _most_ rotary guys buff _most of the time_ using a certain amount of tilt.

When the machine is tilted (and consequently the buffing pad), it is almost always done to change the _amount_ or _way_ the pad is contacting the paint. If the goal is to concentrate applied pressure onto a smaller area, then the machine is applying all of its polishing power onto that smaller area. Unless a guy adjusts the pressure he is applying (which he usually does), he's going to heat the paint in a hurry, all the while grinding paint away.

A guy that uses a rotary tends to learn this _right away_ or the _other way_, which is _*the hard way*_! :wall:

In regards to the inevitable "safety" or "tool abuse" or "damage" questions, such as:



Rocket said:


> ...Do you worry about breaking or damaging the backplate? Seems like it would put pressure where the BP screws on the DA. I've seen a BP fail and the guy put some nice gouges in the paint but I don't know how he cared for or used his equipment. I've never had any issues





qaz393 said:


> ...The bearing on these machines were not designed for the operation like this.


Anyone worth his salt needs to be *sensible* when venturing out of the "norm" in terms of how manufacturers recommend we use their products. He should take ownership of the fact that _if_ he shreds a buffing pad or disc, or _bends_ a backing plate shaft, or _melts_ the Velcro® on the backing plate... he was probably overdoing it. Personally, I have not yet roasted the Velcro on a backing plate, nor broken a plate, nor burnt up a machine. I say this not at all to brag; instead, I am fully aware that should these things occur, it is of my own doing. *It will be my fault.*

*2. Backing plate modification. *
Watch out for areas such as mirrors and curved areas, such as plastic bumper cladding. The closer you match the backing plate and microfiber disc diameters, the more likely you are to have a problem if you're not careful. Fortunately, the Meguiar's DA Microfiber Discs are very easy to control, and are predictable in terms of how they move across a surface. This is especially true if you are using middle-of-the-road speeds, and a random orbital.

If you plan on cutting down the squishier W68DA Backing Plate, you may want to cut it a bit smaller and flare the edge because as it bends, you'll notice that it will protrude past the edge of the disc. Flare-cutting the edge will give it a lower profile, and it'll be less likely to bump a mirror or a curved body part (such as a bumper, or spoiler).



Bunky said:


> ...This seems to just say if you work a smaller area with a smaller pad it will correct faster or the same idea as using a 4-in pad - great correction when you stay in a small work area -- except now you use the edge of the pad with the pad edge supported by the backing plate. You just do not have to use a 4-in pads...





qaz393 said:


> Why not just use a smaller pad like the 3 inch disk???? By tilting the machine, you are dynamically making a smaller pad. Applying 20 pounds of force on a smaller pad (either use smaller pad or tilt machine) will give greater cut (in most case) than 20 pounds on a large pad.


There is another BIG advantage to using a larger diameter pad to do the work of a smaller diameter pad.

*As written in this post: *
June 4th, 2009 TID - Griot's DA and 6" MF pads?? Post 15

*From the post:*
_4. Procedure plays a big part in the choice of pads. For example, if you tend to tilt the machine in order to focus applied pressure or machine motion (or polishing energy), then you'd have to tilt the machine more in order to create the same sized footprint upon the paint as a smaller disc would. In fact, you don't even need to tilt the pad for this dynamic to occur. A panel featuring even a modest curve or bulge would net a similar effect.

Note: I think that tilt is one of the reasons some guys aren't too keen on using the Flex XC 3401VRG with the Meguiar's Microfiber Discs. After all, the discs don't use overly squishy foam, so machine motions are transferred through the foam to the microfiber material very efficiently. When the machine is tilted even a little, the concentration of pressure and the machine's forced rotation tries to rotate the pad like a tire, taking the polishing guy along for the ride._

*And then this:*
June 4th, 2009 TID - Griot's DA and 6" MF pads?? Post 21

*From the post:*
_And if you tilt the machine so that a majority of pressure is on a smaller catseye-shaped portion of the disc... you get the benefit of a small footprint such as the small disc offers, with the edge speed of the large disc. Or, you could feasibly donut hole a pad until you mimic the surface area of the smaller disc, yet polish as you normally would with a large disc._



Mister B said:


> ...So Kevin cut both the Mirka as well as the Meguiar's backing plates down to the same diameter as the microfiber pads? I don't know how he did it, but they look great....


I place the disc onto the plate, trace the diameter onto the backing plate. I use masking tape to wrap the threads of the backing plate stud, then clamp it into a handheld drill. Put my safety glasses on, set the drill on a solid surface (like a table) to stabilize, spin the plate at a moderately slow speed, and push an X-Acto blade through the marked line. I've gotten to the point now of just measuring and marking the backside of the pate, as it is easier to get a straight cut pushing through the foam versus pushing through the Velcro® first.

Then, I use 80 a file to shaped the plate if it needs to be trimmed a lot. Otherwise, I use an 80-grit sanding disc to shape, and then finish off with 180-grit. To sand, just spin the plate using the drill, and sand using the other hand.


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## WD Pro (Feb 7, 2006)

Hi Kevin,

I like reading your posts and never thought I would be able to add anything useful / constructive but reference this statement :



Kevin Brown said:


> I use masking tape to wrap the threads of the backing plate stud, then clamp it into a handheld drill.


I have a better / more secure / safer / potentially less damaging way of doing this 

I have no pictures, but if you have the parts in front of you the instructions should be quite clear.

•	Obtain two standard nuts (the same thread as whatever you want to grip).
•	Using a junior / thin bladed hacksaw (I don't know hat you call them in the states !), cut each nut in the middle of a flat until it breaks through to the hole - effectively making each nut into a 'C' shape.
•	Screw the nuts onto the thread you want to clamp. Keep them as wide apart as possible - limited either by the length of the thread / stud you are clamping or by the length of the jaws you are clamping the thread / stud in.
•	Clamp the nuts in the chuck of either the drill or lathe you are using to do the work ensuring that you clamp only on the uncut nut faces (you may need to rotate one of the nuts a sixth of a turn to allow this).
•	Clamp up the chuck - as tight as you want with no damage to the thread :thumb:

Note, this wont work in a four jaw chuck ...

This method is also good at holding bolts / studding etc in a standard vice without damaging the thread.

Keep the nuts for future - I had a full set of common sizes modified in this way, until moving offices and misplacing them … 

I appreciate that for a 'one off' this might be a little to much hassle, but if you are doing a few it might be useful to you ?

Hope that helps.

WD


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