# The age old "starting up a detailing business" question!?!?!



## steve o (Apr 17, 2009)

Hi chaps, first up, sorry for the long thread!!!

so as the title says, I've been seriously looking at turning my hobby into a business. I know its been said a million times before, so if you haven't got anything constructive to add to my questions, please don't post. I'm only interested in facts, not opinions. :thumb:

A bit of background first. I currently work a 4 on 4 off shift pattern so will be looking to do this part time on my 4 off. I don't need the extra cash, but detailing is a passionate hobby that I would like to do more of in my spare time, perhaps long term turning it into a living? I already do the occasional detail for family and friends, but nothing more than this due to insurance and tax reasons and not wanting to break rules or take risks. 

So, from my research, I'm thinking as someone with no reputation, I will have to start up doing more valeting than detailing perhaps for the first year or two until I build a reputation and the associated clients I am looking for.

Q1 : As a new valeter / detailer, what do people think would be the average daily income to begin with, then assuming a decent reputation, building up to what by the end of year 1 and 2? 

Q2 : What is the average amount of insurance cover required and how much does this cost? I'm currently assuming a public liability and damage insurance costing approx £600 a year in my sums?

I currently have alot of stock (more than enough to start up) and do work out of the back of my car for family and friends, however use their services. So I know I need a van, a water tank, wet and dry vac, power source and stock up on a few other bits and bobs. Add to this sign writing, tarting up the van to be a bit more special, flyers, leaflets, t-shirts, business cards etc... and I can guess a capital startup of approx £6500 (assuming a cheapish astra type van to begin with).

Add to this £6500 an annual cost for insurances, fuel, stock, service and MOT, tax etc etc... and I estimate a further £3500 per year. 

Obviously this works out to me needing to take in £10k of sales in year 1 just to break even and not take a wage from the business, which is not far off £200 a week. 

Q3 : is this type of income viable for a new valeter working only 4 days in 8?

Assuming it all works out and I pay off my capital investment, I'd then assume I only need to pay off my annual costs of approx £3500 (which may increase depending on the type of work I get).

Q4 : would it be accurate to assume a year 2 profit of £6500 with these sums (if at all accurate)?

The overall goal is to obviously move into the prestige detailing arena with the big boys and work from my own fixed premises, perhaps even having my own staff and giving up work as I currently know it.

I'd assume I'd need a more "upper class" vehicle by year 3 and would have to re-invest some of year 2 and 3's profit, perhaps in the order of £10k?

Q5 : does that statement seem accurate?

I'd like to assume the scope of my work would change in year 3 to more detailing than valeting. Bringing in more £ per hour worked. Hopefully doubling or more my income for the same hours worked.

Q6 : is this a reasonable assumption?

Q7 : If so, then would it be fair to assume that in year 4 I can give up work as I know it, go from 4 to 6 day working weeks and assume income of something in the region of £35k less annual overheads of approx £5k?

Finally - Q8 : does this whole plan seem viable, is it going to be possible to make the transition to detailing starting off part time? Are my sums accurate enough and what sort of time scale (assuming building a decent reputation) would I be looking at before working from fixed premises?

Obviously this post is looking from answers from the more established professional detailers already on the forum and not just opinions from those who are not. I also understand that any answers you give me may be partial answers played close to the chest as we are talking about helping possible future competition, so I appreciate and will be grateful of any info any of you do offer. 

Thanks for reading. 

Steve.


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## Finerdetails (Apr 30, 2006)

Steve

you clearly have a business mind about you, and your post is both constructive and focussed.


Most of your answers will depend on your customer base, and how that develops, so its not really possible to answer them.

Also, my main concern is fatigue. You cant work your days off, not in a physical job and still do your day job to the right standard, it just wont work, trust me.

You have included insurance in your costs, tax? You will have to pay 2nd job tax I'd assume on your business. As for your annual cost/budgeting, its a great idea in practise, but hats just what your question is, an idea in theory. Reality is it just doesn't go like that.

If I told you I've spent over 1.5k alone this month on products how would that set your budget into perspective?

You've done some good thoughts, but you cant base a 3 year plan just on ideas and hopes. Best of luck mate


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## steve o (Apr 17, 2009)

Yes, I understand I will pay income tax on any earnings, however assuming I can avoid the tax man in year 1 by offsetting any profit against capital??? I'm no tax man so don't really know if this is the case.

As for my shifts, I'm quite lucky really. My job isn't too physical, I'm an Engineering Manager and work 4 x 12 hour days (no nights). I was going to aim at working a minimum of 2 of my days off or maybe 3 to get things moving. This would mean I would need to take in £70 to £100 a day just to break even based on my sums.

If its not viable, obviously I'll be dissappointed, but I'll just keep on working for family and freinds for a bit of extra pocket money.

My second option was going to be to ask one of the established detailers on the forum in my area if they need a spare pair of hands on my days off and earn money for a passionate hobby that way?

Steve.


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## PJM (Jan 23, 2010)

You a firefighter by any chance Steve??


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## PJM (Jan 23, 2010)

forget that, just seen your last post!


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## Finerdetails (Apr 30, 2006)

steve o said:


> Yes, I understand I will pay income tax on any earnings, however assuming I can avoid the tax man in year 1 by offsetting any profit against capital??? I'm no tax man so don't really know if this is the case.
> 
> As for my shifts, I'm quite lucky really. My job isn't too physical, I'm an Engineering Manager and work 4 x 12 hour days (no nights). I was going to aim at working a minimum of 2 of my days off or maybe 3 to get things moving. This would mean I would need to take in £70 to £100 a day just to *break even* based on my sums.
> 
> ...


its either a business, or its a hobby, get this part right from day one, as the two do not mix. You cant have both, ask any real pro detailer, we might enjoy what we do, and thats great, BUT, we run a business and thats how we detail - as a business - or at least successful ones are.


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## steve o (Apr 17, 2009)

:thumb:

In that case, is it possible to make the transition over a period of time or are you saying it would have to be a "all or nothing" type transistion?

Steve.


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## Finerdetails (Apr 30, 2006)

your inital post is a business question, a hobby detailer would not be asking those questions IMHO.

In the current climate, and with the number of experienced established detailers already up running and with a testimonial of customers and business reputation, how and where do you fit? You have answer these questions as its you who is going to try to do what you enjoy and do on your days off, and turn it into a timed/results driven business to earn money/meet costs.

I average between 70 and 75 hours a week, and that doesnt include my desk time.


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## andy-mcq (Sep 26, 2008)

whatever you do best of luck, although i would agree working every day for evan a year would be a very tiring thing.
i hope to one day set up on my own but not as a detailer, more a really good valeter ;-)
i also want to do ( not thread hijackin!) small car repairs be it key marks, scuffs etc
anyways best of luck and hope all works well, and my motto is you only live once! so do it


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## steve o (Apr 17, 2009)

It is a business question yes, however my thought process was to establish the business over my current days off before committing to it full time.

As you have already picked up, I could only manage to commit 30 to 40 hours per week into this venture in my current circumstances without giving up my existing career.

I also guess I would be hoping to be able to offset any annual costs and capital investment costs with this amount of time. As long as I could do this, pay off investment, then turn to profit in year 2 whilst still only committing 30 to 40 hours a week, I would be happy until such time where a reputation and client base allow me to commit full time and leave my current career path.

I assume from what you're saying, that to work for another company on my days off to earn money doing something I enjoy would not be your advised path?

Thanks again.
Steve.


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## Culainn (Sep 2, 2009)

Have no advice for you because I'm a total detailing amateur but just wanted to wish you best of luck in whatever you do and hope it turns out well. :thumb:


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## David (Apr 6, 2006)

in year one you'd be hard pushed to constantly be earning £100 a day, breaking even in year one is good going, most companies will record a loss (even for tax purposes)

where abouts are you based, how many valeters/detailers trade within 20 miles from you?

Turning a hobby into a business can really screw you up, i did it and quite often regret it


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## steve o (Apr 17, 2009)

My market research doesn't stretch to knowing "exactly" how many detailers are within 20 miles of me, however I do know there are at least 5 reputable "pukka detailers" in approximately that radius that I know exist through my own contacts and this forum.

There are also many "mobile valeters" as you would expect. 

I can understand the hobby / business thing, which is why I posted a serious thread about it. Its something I have been seriously considerring for some time and I need to be completely informed before I make a decision.

If it turns out that the plan / transition period isn't possible, then my hobby will have to remain a hobby. Thats dissappointing because I'd love to make a living from it, but if its not possible in my circumstances then so be it.

Steve.


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## Divine (Jul 16, 2009)

I think in your situation, as you already have your stable income, you can start this process gradually

There is no point buying a van, and spending £1000's advertising...If I were you, stock up, register your business and operate your car for now, obviously it wont be professional as having a fully kitted van, but you need to test whether it can work, if it does after 6 months, go for it! Just dont jump straight in

(this advice only goes to this chap as he already has a job and this is currently a part time plan)


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## dominic84 (Jan 27, 2007)

> My market research doesn't stretch to knowing "exactly" how many detailers are within 20 miles of me, however I do know there are *at least 5 reputable "pukka detailers"* in approximately that radius that I know exist through my own contacts and this forum.
> 
> There are also *many "mobile valeters"* as you would expect.


So what will be different about your service? Unless you have a very clear unique selling point, buying a van and all the gear will just create another 'me too' car cleaning business, and without one you will not make a sucess in a market which is already catered for.

Think very seriously about this before you do anything else.


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## chunkytfg (Feb 1, 2009)

Pointing out that I'm not a detailer by trade just by hobby my immediate thoughts about the sums you've come up with are.....

Shiney is the member you need to speak to Re insurance but the figures IIRC seem about right.

Secondly, concerning the van. If you are serious about it why add your existing costs by adding the van to your fleet for detailing and not just ditch the car and use the van exclusively? It may make your tax return a bit more complicated but from a household income/expenditure point of view it will simplify things no end!!

I think most other things have been covered but can I just reinforce the fact you can not work non stop. Even those self employed take days off!


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## CHAPPERS70 (May 3, 2010)

I have my own commercial and specialist vehicle repair business, although not a detailing business, I would like to add a comment.

You obviously have done most of your homework regarding your new venture. 
TBO i think image is very important and to appear profesional then a van and smart apearance is a must.

Market research!!!!

Ask yourself, if you came to me and offerd your services, why would i choose you ??
The chances are your customers will already be using or have used a valeter/detailer in the past. If not then the chances are they are paying the polls a fiver at tesco,s.

As i enjoy detailing as a hobby. I did look into, as are you, doing this part time at weekends.

I looked at all the local detailing web sites to see what they were charging and in MHO I could not understand how you can they make money from standard valeting.

Detailing and paint correction is a different matter, but this is going to take years of practice to come even close to the standard of the establised guys.

I would stick with the hobby status for now. You say you have about 30 hours per week to plough into this venture. If you find you are filling this time with valeting work consistently then maybe look at going full time.

What ever you decide, I wish you the best of luck.


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## Reds (Jan 14, 2009)

Thanks for posting this Steve. I'm in the process of seeing if this kind of venture is viable for me as well. You've raised questions that I hadn't thought :thumb:

Also thanks to the Pro's that have responded as well. It's nice to have a positive/negative input to help with my ideas.

Whatever your decision is Steve I wish you the best of luck mate.


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## David (Apr 6, 2006)

CHAPPERS70 said:


> I looked at all the local detailing web sites to see what they were charging and in MHO I could not understand how you can they make money from standard valeting.


why not? you've obviously not done enough market research then as there are plenty of folk on here who are valeters and making a decent enough living for themselves.

a very basic run down

find the correct customers - £25/30 a car, usually once a week/bi-weekly

once you have your run, if i start at 8am, i can do 5 cars a day -

5x25 = £125 5x30 = £150

times that by say 5 days work and you are on £30k a year (in an ideal world) and being self employed you can recoup some of the costs against tax so you actually take home more money than someone who is employed sitting in an office for example.


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## Auto Finesse (Jan 10, 2007)

Hi Steve

This is the first post iv read on here about starting up and not thought "god you aint got a clue" so il answer it properly:

I think firstly you have too low an opinion of how profitable just "valeting" can be, detailing and valeting, its all much a muchness, alot of people use the term "detailing" to distance them selfs from the car park and cheapo "valet" services in the UK, we still use the word "valeting" along with "detailing" on our vans and adds aimed at joe public, its word association, they know what you do quickly at a glance and thats all they will give you some times.

Q1: i cant really help with as i started over 10 years ago

Q2: a man in a van insurance again i cant help with as we have a van, 3 employee and a unit to insure, it will be alot less than ours tho.
_
Q3 : is this type of income viable for a new valeter working only 4 days in 8 (£200)_ 
It depends, if you get the work in you will quite easy do that in a day, but others you may take nothing or even be at a loss, it will average out.

_Q4 : would it be accurate to assume a year 2 profit of £6500 with these sums (if at all accurate)?_

If that is all the profit id not even consider starting up, that will quite easy get eaten up by some costs you have over looked or in growing the business, lucky for you i feel if you work hard at it you will beable to better that, dont set your hourly rate lower for valets, you use more product in a short space of time with valeting, also still have to travel to and from the client, you will be doing your self an injustice mate, you should have a figure in your head what you want to charge per hour and go with it.

Q7 again your sums are far far far too low, you should be looking 50-75 minimum, else it just wont pay mate, people need to realise YOU WONT have work 9-5, 5 days a week 48 weeks of the year, not to start with any way.

You need a selling point, iv said this time and time again, you need an angle, something to set you apart, working out the boot of a car is not a good look IMO if your serious about business, and want to build a brand it wont help, that dont mean you have to spend 10s of Ks on a van, 3-4 grand will get you something tidy.


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## Olly1 (Feb 21, 2010)

Had a quick skim of this thread. My initial suggestions would be sit down and draft up a proper P&L and Balance sheet for your business. I assume this is going to be a limited company and therefore is the business going to "purchase the stock" from you? 

Cheap as chips to set up a company but if your not so good at the compliance side of things then you have VAT, CT600 and financial statements to file. Again not overly expensive but you would want to set aside say £500 for this.

Once all potential costs have been considered and your brake even point calculated you will have a good idea of how viable it would be. 

Best of luck :thumb:


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## Auto Finesse (Jan 10, 2007)

No need to set up as LTD straight off, and you dont HAVE to be VAT reged right away.


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## Olly1 (Feb 21, 2010)

james b said:


> No need to set up as LTD straight off, and you dont HAVE to be VAT reged right away.


Agree your DONT have to register until your turnover exceeds £70k, but if your not going to be purchasing stock then there could be an advantage to being VAT registered.


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## adlem (Jul 6, 2008)

I'm in very much the same boat as you. I'm really considering this as well and you have raised the same thoughts/concerns i have.

I'll just wish you the best of luck, and i'll be keeping a keen eye on this thread :thumb:


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## Auto Finesse (Jan 10, 2007)

Olly1 said:


> Agree your DONT have to register until your turnover exceeds £70k, but if your not going to be purchasing stock then there could be an advantage to being VAT registered.


What is exactly?

The only advantages i see are if you are buying stock, to claim the VAT back, other wise you are going to have to charge all you customers more (or take the hit your self) then pass all those takings over.


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## rds1985 (Mar 7, 2009)

james b said:


> What is exactly?
> 
> The only advantages i see are if you are buying stock, to claim the VAT back, other wise you are going to have to charge all you customers more (or take the hit your self) then pass all those takings over.


couldn't agree more


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## Olly1 (Feb 21, 2010)

james b said:


> What is exactly?
> 
> The only advantages i see are if you are buying stock, to claim the VAT back, other wise you are going to have to charge all you customers more (or take the hit your self) then pass all those takings over.


Fair point on charging customers. Forgot that most of your customers would be consumer rather than corporates.

But there is a scheme called the flat rate VAT scheme which allows you to charge VAT and then pay only circa 2/3 of it to HMRC and you pocket the rest. Works great for any service business where your VAT inputs are minimal.


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## rich1880 (May 26, 2010)

Just read the thread with interest. Although new ish to detailing I do have 2 businesses which i set up from scratch. I set my last business up from a hobby and do it part time, whilst I would say you cant really put 100% into a part time business when you have a day job to do, it does take the stress out of it a little.

Marketing

Image is everything and I agree you need an angle. If I was to really get into detiling further I would specialise in just detailing and focus my time and energy in marketing for the first few months. This is totally my angle on this so open to criticism but go in from day one to the high end market, your general person on the street would rather pay a fiver and take the car through the car wash. I would move away from this market and target your advertising very specifically. Make sure your company name reflects your market, 'Wash n Go' just wont attract your target market.

Dont underestimate the power of facebook, set up a page, get people to join, if nothing else it spreads the word of what you do.

Business Planning

You have put some thought into the business planning, how about just aiming for 1 Car to detail a week, whilst you do it as a hobby. If this picks up then look at what time you have available.

I would see the detailing as just one angle, why not seek to become a stockist of a brand and get a website setup to sel lthe products. Take a look on ebay, search for a product and look at the persons feedback, Ive just done this and seen one person is selling around 10 items a day.

Market Research

Obviously its important to look at your immediate area, but, by positining yourself as being the best and not the cheapest is a good marketing strategy. If someone said they could detail my car fully for £10 and someone else said it would be £300 I would pay the £300 as I would assume the one for a tenner would be useless.

Lastly, my business is that I use CAD to draft plans for extensions etc, whilst I work full time I have developed some contacts and when the time comes where I do not have enough spare time to do these plans, I know thats the time I need to re-assess and think about doing it full time.

Hope that helps.


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## steve o (Apr 17, 2009)

Really appreciate these comments guys, especially the tax side of things as this is a gap in my knowledge. 

Just going back to a couple of questions raised earlier, chunkytfg, yes my plan is to use the company van as my daily drive and selling my car, however I am trying to encorporate all costs into the business to be sure my business plan is robust enough to accomodate all costs as if starting with nothing and without leveraging help from personal circumstance. 

Jamesb, as for brand and image and offering more than everyone else, well, I guess I don't have many ideas on this, my aim is to push quality of service over cost and time. Even though there are other valeters and detailers locally, I don't believe the market is saturated as to not be able to accomodate a new kid on the block. Like I say, my only image plan is to look more professional, educate my clients and hopefully begin to push the detail side of work. I live in an affluent area where I feel even leaflet dropping will find the right clients to suit my intended work. 

So tell me more about what is and isn't needed to setup a business name and the reason why?

Thanks again
Steve.


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## Mike_182 (Mar 22, 2007)

The only thing I'll add as most of it has been covered quite comprehensively.

If you do it for a living, you'll hate it as a hobby. I cannot think of one person who now really, deeply enjoys doing for free (I.E. as a hobby) what they do every day as their main source of income.


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## rich1880 (May 26, 2010)

With Business names etc, you can either go Ltd which reduces the risk if your comapany went bankrupt as your own assets are locked outside of the company. Personally I have always gone down the Sole Trader route and as such you can set up a business account which will read 'Joe Bloggs T/AS Detail and Shine' I beleive there are some tax advantaged of being a ltd company.

Also did you know you can get a grant of up to £3000 for anyone starting their own business, you wont be eligible as you work full time but if you have a relative that wants to be a part of this or a supportive partner then they could apply.


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## Auto Finesse (Jan 10, 2007)

steve o said:


> Really appreciate these comments guys, especially the tax side of things as this is a gap in my knowledge.
> 
> Just going back to a couple of questions raised earlier, chunkytfg, yes my plan is to use the company van as my daily drive and selling my car, however I am trying to encorporate all costs into the business to be sure my business plan is robust enough to accomodate all costs as if starting with nothing and without leveraging help from personal circumstance.
> 
> ...


Steve while il help answer and give a educated answer to your queries, i wont lay it all out for you, branding is key, im pretty happy with what i have achieved with my brand (Auto Finesse), the look, the way it runs and the sort of vehicles we are known for dealing with, but it did not just come over night, and i have spent 1000's to get it where it is.

Branding will also depend on your area (lots of people have asked you this question and you still have not answered it?) what is already around you and how your brand can stand out in that area for what you are aiming at doing.


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## CHAPPERS70 (May 3, 2010)

David said:


> why not? you've obviously not done enough market research then as there are plenty of folk on here who are valeters and making a decent enough living for themselves.
> 
> a very basic run down
> 
> ...


My circumstances may be slightly different and perhaps i should of explained my comments of not being able to make a living. When i was looking into it i based the figures on what i currently earn per hour. I understand that some people may not be earning as much.

You do 5 cars a day 5x£25= £125, take materials and fuel costs + travel time, (unless customers are coming to you), tax the tax and depreciation of your tools and equipment. I cant see you clearing much more than £90 a day.

For the effort that you guys put in, i just felt they deserved more money than they can charge, after all there is a degree of skill involved.

As I obviously no nothing about running a business, i'll leave it at that.

Mark

www.dustek.co.uk


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## steve o (Apr 17, 2009)

I haven't answered it because as I have said, I don't know what else to do other than sell / educate the quality image over bulk / cheap as chips brigades??? Although I do like the idea of being an agent / stockest for a brand into the business. As I say, there appears to be alot of my target audience locally, from prestige cars to young executives with expensive sports cars, these are in obundance where I live. As far as I'm aware, there are some reputable detailers within 20 miles, but they are not saturating / penetrating the market extensively as I've already approached some people / businesses locally who have never heard of them. My feeling is there is most certainly room for me in a higher end valet / detail bracket, how much though, I am not yet 100% certain.

Again, as I've already said, there are many valeters about as is the case anywhere, I've even spoke to some of these directly on the sly asking what detail level they can offer and once asked about "detailing or paint correction" every single one has told me they can't offer that service level, usually along the lines of "ooooooooh, we don't touch them machine polishing devices matey! more hastle than they're worth!" I've even approached some "valeting / detailers" who say they "will" do paint correction, however all of these have again stated they can only offer limited correction with a DA, do not have studio lighting, paint thickness assessment or any other types of equipment you would associate with a proper paint correction detail and seem to prefer the valet side of the business.

If I had all the answers to everything in my business plan, I wouldn't be here now asking the pro's advice. I don't expect everyone to lay everything down and I said this in my first post, what I'm looking for is constructive advice on starting up a business and whether my current plans seem good enough to spend more time developing into a proper business plan?

I've also put emphesis on my expectation for this not to happen straight away or even at all as my circumstances may prevent it. 

I need to know more about tax, limited companies, sole traders etc... who is doing what, do my sums add up (I appreciate people telling me I'm under expecting the potential). What are the costs involved in setup, is there anything I've missed etc etc....

I really do appreciate the support and advice so far, it is helping me understand what I need to do next, including development of my market research and branding, so thanks James, and everyone else.

Steve.


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## Auto Finesse (Jan 10, 2007)

Steve, as far as it goes your asking alot of people and not even giving a reply to a simple one (your location) not asking for your street name and door number here mate, just where abouts in the country you are, reason is some areas you can charge more money for your services than others, your sums are relevant to your market and area.


You are now saying you want to aim at the detailing end of the market, i think if you do a little more research in to the top guys in the industry, they would have come from alot more humble beginnings than you think regarding what level they started at, you wont and cant go in and try to offer the kind of services and craftsmanship the top detailers do with out the foundations, most would have started off much like those "valeters you talked to on the sly" cleaning cars for dealerships or even a simple mobile "valet" service.

The reason they can offer the high level of service & demand the the prices they do is because people understand they are paying for someones expertise in that area and this takes time and experience, cleaning cars as a business is nothing like cleaning your own and your mates cars for a hobby.

I dont think your budget would at this time stretch to a proper high end detailing set up, and a van and all the rest of it, you would need around 10-15K for the gear and some money for marketing and its alot harder to market than just a decent "valeting service".

*This is not a dig, i looked back at the post and it could appear im just being a [email protected], im not im just letting you know some of the basics*


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## David (Apr 6, 2006)

CHAPPERS70 said:


> You do 5 cars a day 5x£25= £125, take materials and fuel costs + travel time, (unless customers are coming to you), tax the tax and depreciation of your tools and equipment. I cant see you clearing much more than £90 a day.
> 
> As I obviously no nothing about running a business, i'll leave it at that


Yes but you can claim depreciation of tools, van etc against tax along with fuel costs, van repair costs and chemicals and tools used so you will pay less in tax etc

still, at £90 take home, £450 isnt a bad wage considering


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## Auto Finesse (Jan 10, 2007)

For the hassel and stress of running your own business and all the financial input id want more than 450 a week out of it, down here anyway.


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## David (Apr 6, 2006)

when you are on your own its fine, i have no life long dream to continue doing what i do until im even 30, my other business takes home more than the valeting, but i enjoy the valeting when its not pouring with rain up here! so if steve wants to buy my caddy and full valeting set up he can let me know :lol:

you live in a more expensive place than me though, its relatively cheap to live in Paisley compared to yours, i could get a mortgage on that wage for a decent place.


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## steve o (Apr 17, 2009)

Sorry james, I didn't see that you were specifically asking where I was located, maybe my misunderstanding??? Please let's not get short or defensive about it all. I appreciate this is the livlihood of yours we are discussing and I respect that which is why I've asked your advice, but I have to reitterate that I never started this thread proclaiming to know all the answers and approach to begin with, if I did, I wouldn't ask for help, I'd just get on with it. 

To answer, I live in wirral. My particular locality is afluent. I also have good links to chester, cheshire and liverpool city. All with their own wealth of variety. 

As for my aims, I've said from the start my aim was to detail and eventually work from fixed premises, I also showed I understand in my first post that I know I will probably have to start out mainly valeting before building enough reputation, I haven't changed my angle at any point and I understand everything you have said, I was just reitterating that my approach will aim at quality in order to build the business over cost and time as I thought you were asking about my approach. 

I'm not out to argue or upset anyone james, I'm just chasing a dream like everyone else and looking for the answers. If this is going to go the wrong way, I'd rather just end the thread cos that's not what I'm after, I'm a nice chap, honest!!!

Thanks again
Steve.


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## Auto Finesse (Jan 10, 2007)

Steve its not going "the wrong way" your getting the answers to your questions.

Im not that defensive over my livelyhood, i think even if you was on my door step as a newbi you would be hard pushed to make a difference to my client base.

The reason i asked what area is as i stated this will have alot to do with pricing so its relevant to your questions regarding what is realistic to make a week as part time. 

i wish you all the best with it.

James


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## rich1880 (May 26, 2010)

Hi, this is an interesting thread, one item thats keeps popping up which I cant get my head around is why you have to start off doing the car washing and work up to being a detailer. 

If we are saying washing a car and detailing are 2 very different things then why not practice and perfect the detailing and start off at that level. If you start off washing cars then that is what you will be known for and you may have a rebranding issue later down the line when you want to focus on the detailing and high end side of things.

A colleague who detailed my last car does 2 details a week and charges £295 a pop. He also does 2 or 3 full valets, polishes, waxes etc and charges £70. All in all taking around £740 a week. One thing he did say that he advertised in all the wrong places for the first 2 years before realising he needed to target the high end market.


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## Auto Finesse (Jan 10, 2007)

No one is saying that detailing and valeting are different, its all car cleaning, its just a service level.

As a service id 100% say valeting and detailing are different.

No offense but i kind of know my market


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## West End1981 (Apr 4, 2009)

Hi Steve,

Just thought i'd add my bit as I am in the exact same situation as yourself. I also work similar shifts as a public servant and have just declared a second income to HMRC after being offered to correct paintwork at a car dealership. 

I have also purchased a van however this was a downsize from my impractical two seater MX-5. The money I got back from this allowed me to buy everything I needed and I fully kitted the van with products for less than £1000. Direct line van insurance added business insurance as standard and was the cheapest I could find.

Business Liability Insurance ? For full motor trade business liablity insurance you can be talking £500+ per year in premiums. This is why I have restricted myself to middle of the range motors and will point blank refuse to detail anything above say BMW M5 spec. 
I have stuck away £2K as my own safety net incase the worst comes to the worst and I need to pay for a re-spray or panel dent. Can you imagine what a Lambo or Ferrari would cost !!!!!! You could also get a lawyer to draw up a disclamer form for you stating you take no responsibility for any damage caused but this will probably put customers backs up when you ask them to sign. If you do a detail for a dealership, make sure that sub-contractors are covered under their policy.

Last but not least, make sure you carry out any work within a private driveway or other private place as you will need a street traders licence to do any work on a public road again costing several hundred pounds from the council. Only pick customers with their own water supply and electricity as a genny and water tank will just break your suspension and cost you loads in fuel.

Realistically as a part timer you are talking £250 a month after tax which for me will pay for a nice holiday for my partner and the wee one come summer time. That's all I need to make it worth while. 

Word of mouth is the way to go. If you do a good job then your reputation will spread. Keep the supercars etc to James and the others as in my opinion it's not worth the risk.


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## steve o (Apr 17, 2009)

Ok cool. Thanks. :thumb:

So, can anyone offer specifics on start up costs I might have missed originally?

A few have mentioned the tax man, limited companies and so forth. What are the costs of registering a business and starting up (approximately)? What is the tax mans involvement or what is involved in being tax registered?

I've looked locally and there is a government grand scheme which will offer £500 to any new business providing you attend a night school business class. Seems fair enough. I haven't seen the one which offers £3000, but by the sounds of it I wouldn't be eligable anyway??? 

Thanks.
Steve.


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## steve o (Apr 17, 2009)

newbie-ocd said:


> Hi Steve,
> 
> Just thought i'd add my bit as I am in the exact same situation as yourself. I also work similar shifts as a public servant and have just declared a second income to HMRC after being offered to correct paintwork at a car dealership.
> 
> ...


Thanks for this mate, great input and just what I'm looking for! We are in a very similar position indeed!!! I too have just sold my audi TT and will come out with a similar situation!!! :lol:

A couple of questions for you then, you say I could be talking £500 for insurance, but you talk as though you don't bother with it? Do you have insurance? If not, how does this work in your business? I assume you use the sub contractor insurance you talk about whilst working for the dealership you mention? Is this your only source of income for the business?

Also, £250 after tax isn't massive, but providing it does what you need it for and it covers your costs I think its a very noble thing. What sort of tax are you paying on your earnings in your part time business? I'm already a supertax bracket, so assume any earnings from my own business to be at 40%? Or is there a way round the tax man with your own business? Can you offset the tax against stocking up and overheads etc???

Also, what did it cost to set up your company? Name, tax, accountant advising etc....

Cheers.
Steve.


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## West End1981 (Apr 4, 2009)

As a second job you must register yourself as self employed with HMRC. 

You can do this online. They will then contact you and will arrange a rate of tax they will expect you to pay for any additional income you make. In my case this is 35% for income tax and NI but will most likely soon be 40% as I am on borderline on the supertax bracket. 

You will be expected to keep invoices for every job you carry out and submit a tax return prior to the end of tax year plus copies of invioces and bank statements showing the money going into your account. You will then be billed for tax owed. I have a seperate account which I put 35% of any income I make into this to keep things simple. 

Registering a business costs around £100. I don't know much about this but know there are tax advantages in it for companies with large turnovers and a chartered accountant is a must, but like anything else they cost money.


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## rich1880 (May 26, 2010)

Hi, James its without a doubt its apparent that you know your business, some excellent details and looked through a few of your threads. All I was trying to say is that as a part time business and if its detailing you love then go for it.

With regard to the £3,000 grant, check your local council website as it differs from area to area and there are often a few hoops to jump through.


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## steve o (Apr 17, 2009)

newbie-ocd said:


> As a second job you must register yourself as self employed with HMRC.
> 
> You can do this online. They will then contact you and will arrange a rate of tax they will expect you to pay for any additional income you make. In my case this is 35% for income tax and NI but will most likely soon be 40% as I am on borderline on the supertax bracket.
> 
> ...


Is an accountant a must? Do you have one? What are the costs? I was hoping the math would be straight forward enough to do my own desk work and tax returns?

Is your business Ltd or sole trader?

Cheers.
Steve.


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## Auto Finesse (Jan 10, 2007)

I understand Rich, but even if you just offer a "car wash" service but doing it properly your on the right road to offer other services as and when you have the equipment and skill to do so. 

If you know where you want your business to end up then you have a goal, but i personally dont think you can just jump in at the deep end.


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## rich1880 (May 26, 2010)

It is possible to do your books yourself, I do my own books got initial advice from my local Business link. I do sometimes use an accountant when Its nearing year end.

A good accountant pay for themselves, as they often can reduce your tax bill significantly through some creative accounting. I didn't pay any tax for the first 2 years of trading, instead ran at a loss on paper.


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## rich1880 (May 26, 2010)

Fair point James, I cant dispute your experience and wouldn't want to, some good pointers for anyone thinking of doing this full time.


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## steve o (Apr 17, 2009)

rich1880 said:


> It is possible to do your books yourself, I do my own books got initial advice from my local Business link. I do sometimes use an accountant when Its nearing year end.
> 
> A good accountant pay for themselves, as they often can reduce your tax bill significantly through some creative accounting. I didn't pay any tax for the first 2 years of trading, instead ran at a loss on paper.


Very interesting, I'll have to look into this. I have two friends currently going through their chartered accountant exams, I haven't approached them about this venture yet, but I'm suspecting they will be able to help me all I need for free or very little in return?

It is looking more and more like the route I have suggested is viable. I believe the client base is there, I believe I can learn more and develop a decent reputation and it would appear costs could be less than I predicted, there could be more governement support than I initially thought and income could be more than I budgeted for. All good stuff.

I will still budget for worst case however and re-do my sums after speaking with my accountant friends (they're on honeymoon as we speak!!!)

Thanks for the input.
Steve.


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## West End1981 (Apr 4, 2009)

james b said:


> I understand Rich, but even if you just offer a "car wash" service but doing it properly your on the right road to offer other services as and when you have the equipment and skill to do so.
> 
> If you know where you want your business to end up then you have a goal, but i personally dont think you can just jump in at the deep end.


Exactly ! Start off simple.

You don't need to be a registered company and you don't have to charge VAT unless you register for it ( your company must pay VAT on turnover of over £68000 which doesn't include your first income) you can literally be a nameless car washer. The only thing you must remember is that if you are getting payed for valeting then you must pay tax. I have also looked into business grants and unfortunately you and I are not suitable. These grants are given to new and innovative business ideas. Mention valeting and the fact you already receive an income and they will laugh you out the door.


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## rich1880 (May 26, 2010)

No problem, I aint no expert but happy to help where I can. With grants I would look into them sooner rather than later before the Conservatives cut them!


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## steve o (Apr 17, 2009)

newbie-ocd said:


> Exactly ! Start off simple.
> 
> You don't need to be a registered company and you don't have to charge VAT unless you register for it ( your company must pay VAT on turnover of over £68000 which doesn't include your first income) you can literally be a nameless car washer. The only thing you must remember is that if you are getting payed for valeting then you must pay tax. I have also looked into business grants and unfortunately you and I are not suitable. These grants are given to new and innovative business ideas. Mention valeting and the fact you already receive an income and they will laugh you out the door.


But you only pay tax on any "income" right? So you can offset your takings against overheads and capital investment and thus not need to pay as much tax? Like Rich says, be clever and be non profit on paper for a couple of years???

What is the £68k turnover thing? Can you explain more?

I think you're right about the £3k grants, but I'm fairly sure I can get the £500 grant. I've signed up anyway so will find out more soon I'm sure!!!


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## Auto Finesse (Jan 10, 2007)

^^ Yes you only pay tax on profits not turnover.


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## chris'svr6 (May 17, 2006)

Steve, Send me a PM, i'm in the same boat as you, work 4 on 4 off, i have run my part-time business for 3 years now.


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## West End1981 (Apr 4, 2009)

I think if you can prove your expenditure then you only pay tax on profits however I also still need to consult an accountant re this. 

If your anything like the rest of us here then you will have more that enough kit to start up the business without much initial costing otherwise how could you do detailing in the first place.

The only additional purchases I made were the van and a Henry and George hoover. The rest I had in my garage from years of collecting the latest and greatest products. Which leads me to another point. Most of the stuff I bought was useless and I could have stuck with half a dozen polishes waxes etc plus tools.


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## CHAPPERS70 (May 3, 2010)

I have a Ltd company, The benefits of beiing ltd are, You can pay yourself the minimum wage, i think its about £500 per month, this means you wont technically earn enough to have to pay NI. This is then topped up by paying yourself a Dividend.
Dividends can only be taken from profits, I.E if you only made £200 profit, you cant technically take £500 dividend, if you see what i mean.

At the end of the year, you wont have any personall tax or NI to pay on a self cert. You will however have a corporation tax liabilty, based on Profits for that year.
No business will on paper make profit in year 1 and maybe 2, if you do then sack the accountant.
As mentioned in earlier threads, Dont register for VAt unless you have to. However if you are looking at working for trade and garages, this may work in your favour as they will be able to claim the VAT back. But as far as the general public are concerned you will just be 17.5% dearer than your competition that is not VAT registered.

An accountant fees vary depending on what you need them to do for you, In my case all i ever do is the invoicing. Wage slips, Vat and all comms with HMRC are dealt with by the acountant, this is done for about 1K a year, In your case i would think you could half that cost.

I think a lot of guys are missing the point on the insurance bit!!!
Liability insurance is a must in todays crazy claim happy world we live in. Most guys seem focused on the fact they need insurance in case they scratch or burn through some lambo's paint.
For this you can get a fairly cheap Service imdemnity policy that will cover this.

An example of why LIABILITY insurance is needed is:

For instance, you are at my house cleaning my car. I come out walk up my path and trip over your hose pipe or extension lead, or even something as simple as slipping on the wet drive way....... wallop off i go claims direct no win no fee etc,etc.

Worth a mention, the tax benefits of being LTD are not like they were years ago, in fact not a great deal in it between sole trader and ltd.
These days Financial establishments, I.e banks have wised up to the "no risk to directors LTD company" and are therefore likely to ask for personall guarantees for overdrafts, loans ETC, which leaves you as wide open being ltd as it does being a sole trader, if all goes **** up.

Mark
www.dustek.co.uk


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## rich1880 (May 26, 2010)

Chappers, would your dividend not be £200? Very good point regarding Liability insurance as if you were a sole trader you would have to foot the bill. At least with a ltd company the  company would be liable.


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## West End1981 (Apr 4, 2009)

Yep you are right there. 

I am looking for liability insurance at the moment. Can just imagine getting a car gleaming then the owner comes out and trips over the power lead. Claim for 3 months lost wages due to bad back !!! 

I will cancel my gym membership as I am working too much to go and this burns the calories anyway. Hopefully this will be equivalent to my monthly premium.

Any recomendations for both liability and service imdemnity ?


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## Shiny (Apr 23, 2007)

Have a read of this which may help explain the Insurance in more detail - http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=61615


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## CHAPPERS70 (May 3, 2010)

rich1880 said:


> Chappers, would your dividend not be £200? Very good point regarding Liability insurance as if you were a sole trader you would have to foot the bill. At least with a ltd company the company would be liable.


Not quite right regarding the liability, This insurance will cover both types. These days Directors can be equally liable as sole traders.

In fact if you were working for my limited company, I could be sat in my office fully unaware someone has just tripped over your hose you left draped across the customers drive and broke a leg. This is the classic part.... I would be equally liable to blame.... but then i could also get sued by you for not giving you adequate training on how to use the equipment supplied.... as i said earlier "crazy claim happy world"

The divedend example was very rough, but the bottom line is you are not legally allowed to pay out more divedend than you have in retained profit.


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## steve o (Apr 17, 2009)

CHAPPERS70 said:


> Not quite right regarding the liability, This insurance will cover both types. These days Directors can be equally liable as sole traders.
> 
> In fact if you were working for my limited company, I could be sat in my office fully unaware someone has just tripped over your hose you left draped across the customers drive and broke a leg. This is the classic part.... I would be equally liable to blame.... but then i could also get sued by you for not giving you adequate training on how to use the equipment supplied.... as i said earlier "crazy claim happy world"
> 
> The divedend example was very rough, but the bottom line is you are not legally allowed to pay out more divedend than you have in retained profit.


Ah! Good old vicarious liability!!! True enough but doing this part time I won't be hiring any staff for a long time!

Some excellent points on tax as accountant costs there, good stuff indeed! I'll be crashing some more specific numbers together this weekend and see how they come out!

Thanks again. 
Steve


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## Auto Finesse (Jan 10, 2007)

You can number crunch all you like, the fact of the matter is you have no experiance in the industry so all it is is guess work.

Don't expect to have the work for every day your free to do it.


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## Greg_VXR (Nov 21, 2009)

I wish you all the best in your new business mate i cant offer any advice as dont have my own detailing business but one thing i would say listen to james he knows his stuff and has an established business so it is priceless info!


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## JasonPD (Jan 8, 2010)

A very interesting read as it is always useful to hear other peoples thoughts and opinions on start and and marketing.

I wish the OP the best of luck with his venture 

In my personal experience the 'detailing' nut is a lot harder to crack than 'valeting' as you need to convince folk that your service IS much better than a valet and warrants a higher price. As has been mentioned earlier in this post, a large percentage of people are happy with a quick wash on their car and can't see the need for a service that costs hundreds of pounds. Despite detailing professionally in the past for another company, when setting up on my own in a different city (well different country actually) I had no reputation and no one to recommend my service here. 4 months down the line, I do a mix of valeting and detailing and I enjoy the mix of services I provide for my clients.


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## steve o (Apr 17, 2009)

Hmmmm, lets just see what happens.

Thanks to everyone who's been positive and constructive. :thumb:

I think most of the important points on whats required / involved, costs and balance points have been discussed.

I'll PM those who are in similar circumstance and who are successfully doing what I want to start and we'll just see where time and effort takes us.

Thanks again to all the well wishers and constructive info given. Its been a great help.

Cheers.
Steve.


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## Mick (Jan 23, 2010)

have you looked into sstart up grants etc? i dont know if you will be eligable as your planning on doing it part time and as a second business, but maybe another avenue for you to look into :thumb:


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## David (Apr 6, 2006)

he'll get no grant money because he has a full time job


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## JasonPD (Jan 8, 2010)

When I looked at grants/financial help the job centre said I needed to have been registered as unemployed and seeking work for 3 months...


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## David (Apr 6, 2006)

JasonPD said:


> When I looked at grants/financial help the job centre said I needed to have been registered as unemployed and seeking work for 3 months...


is that all, when i tried that they said 6 months and my parents had to be earning less than X amount

i was knocked back on both accounts, not to say my parents would have given me the cash anyway, what if i'd fallen out with them? assumption could have killed a good idea.


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## CHAPPERS70 (May 3, 2010)

David said:


> is that all, when i tried that they said 6 months and my parents had to be earning less than X amount
> 
> i was knocked back on both accounts, not to say my parents would have given me the cash anyway, what if i'd fallen out with them? assumption could have killed a good idea.


is it just me or has this country lost the plot. The goverment keep harping on about people claiming benefits who should be working..

If this was me and i had a passion to start up a business and needed a grant then from whats been said i would string out being unemployed until i qualified for a grant. therefore costing the tax payer a lot more...... What an attitude to have to have.

Small businesses are the back bone of this country.
If I were in charge of given out grants for business, then personally i would rather give them to someone who has been currently employed and more likely to make a serious attempt at success, than someone who has not been working for months.

Sorry for the hijack, but these gov guidelines really get to me.:devil:


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