# No more ICE after 2035?



## andy665 (Nov 1, 2005)

So what do we think of the government bring forward its EV plans to 2035.

Of far more significance and not really picked up by the media is the inclusion of all new ICE cars / vans after 2035, the original plan was to allow ICE after 2040 as long as they had a hybrid element.

Effectively the decision means that the sale of hybrids is now being banned after 2035. 

Applaud the ambition but don't think its properly thought through and will not be met, don't think the environmental benefit is completely clear cut and certainly don't think the charging infrastructure will be sufficient by 2035.

Instead of forcing people down the EV route it should be developed so that people are actively making the switch on their own - nobody forced people off horses and carts into cars.


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## millns84 (Jul 5, 2009)

I think it's absolutely ridiculous, not least because this government is meant to be "conservative" and thus shouldn't fall for the extreme environmentalist nonsense.

We emit around 1% of global CO2, around 20% of which is from transport.

Even if CO2 was an issue, we wouldn't dent it if we stopped all emissions full stop.

Meanwhile, more normal countries such as China (30-odd percent of global CO2) will continue to increase their emissions while we're doing ourselves in with taxes, laws and virtue signalling. Pathetic.


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## GeeWhizRS (Nov 1, 2019)

The sooner the better as far as I'm concerned. Battery improvements will increase range and charge times soon so that these will be viable for more people. Charging your EV will soon be similar to filling up with juice time-wise.
Costs will come down and we'll all live happily ever after.
Once you go EV, you never go back. 😉


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## washingitagain (Sep 11, 2018)

The timescale is what baffles me.

Will the infrastructure be in place by then? At present it isn't and I don't see much activity.

Surely manufacturers will stop bringing out new petrol cars relatively soon as why invest in R&D for cars which they can't sell in 15 years time?

I know there will be a second hand market but no doubt petrol and car tax will be raised to deter petrol car use. Genuinely sad it's the end of a motoring era.


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## GeeWhizRS (Nov 1, 2019)

washingitagain said:


> I know there will be a second hand market but no doubt petrol and car tax will be raised to deter petrol car use.


This is already arranged for company cars; petrol/diesel BIK tax rates are going up in the next few years.


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## andy665 (Nov 1, 2005)

GeeWhizRS said:


> This is already arranged for company cars; petrol/diesel BIK tax rates are going up in the next few years.


New BIK rates favour EVs and ULEV massively because sales of EV are still very much in the minority and not growing at the rate expected - the reasons - probably a combination of fear, cost, ability to recharge / time to recharge etc

Once the volume reaches a critical mass do you seriously think the government will then not hit EV company car drivers very hard indeed

I'd really like to see someone properly study the "whole life" environmental footprint of EVs against ULEVs and ICE (both petrol and diesel) - say over 15 years / 150k miles, from point of extraction of raw materials to point of disposal - seems strange that the environmental campaigners have not done so - or maybe they have and do not like the results.

I'm far from a luddite, EV technology is interesting and driving an EV would not bother me but the running headlong into "EV is the answer" reminds me of a similar thing with diesel about 35 years ago - that ended well didn't it


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

It won't happen.


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## GeeWhizRS (Nov 1, 2019)

andy665 said:


> Once the volume reaches a critical mass do you seriously think the government will then not hit EV company car drivers very hard indeed.


Without a doubt tax will rise for EVs. It's already scheduled to do so. 0% this year, 1% next, 2% year after. Just be on the right bus at the right time. :thumb:


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## Derekh929 (Aug 28, 2011)

Logistics in this are huge and manufacturers planning completely thrown up in air again, for me this is just consultation at present so not set on stone.
I prefer to base judgements on fact or law rather than another consultation, I think hybrid was a good solution, but with the tax removed on business purchases for EV that will possibly boost EV sales and bring cost down?
Enjoy our V8's I think they may rise in cost in future:lol:


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## andy665 (Nov 1, 2005)

Derekh929 said:


> Logistics in this are huge and manufacturers planning completely thrown up in air again, for me this is just consultation at present so not set on stone.
> I prefer to base judgements on fact or law rather than another consultation, I think hybrid was a good solution, but with the tax removed on business purchases for EV that will possibly boost EV sales and bring cost down?
> Enjoy our V8's I think they may rise in cost in future:lol:


I think many, if not most people are looking at manufacturers and what this decision will mean for them in a very simplistic way - the UK market is a tiny market - representing less than 3% of worldwide new car sales.

The BIK rates make EV (for now) attractive to businesses and company car drivers but this has to balanced against practicality - the 40-50k per year sales rep in a Nissan Leaf - at least coffee sales in service stations will benefit

Manufacturers work on a global basis and will plan based on what the majority of markets (in terms of volume) decide to do - anyone thinking that the UKs decision on its own will fundamentally impact the decisions manufacturers make is kidding themselves - if ICE is still legal in many markets and there is demand for them come 2035 then the manufacturers will still be producing them


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## vsideboy (Sep 1, 2006)

China will continue producing them so we'll all just be driving around in Chinese branded cars that look kind of familiar to cars that we've had in the past.

http://carsut.com/list-of-chinese-car-brands/

I for one can't wait to own a Baolong, or a Quingling


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## washingitagain (Sep 11, 2018)

And what about the second hand car market? My limited understanding is that batteries have a finite life and under current prices not economical to replace. So car is scrapped? Not very green... Or maybe there will be a recycle scheme? 

My car might depreciate but at least I know it won't be useless and worthless after 7 or 8 years.


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## RandomlySet (Jul 10, 2007)

So, 15 years to get charging points installed everywhere? If they're serious then EVERY new parking bay should be equppied with a charging station.

Every new house should have charging outlets as standard.

Then there's the topic of those who live in terraced houses, along main roads with no off-street parking (or anywhere for that matter).... How do those people charge their cars? Pay machine along the street? Sure as hell can't have power cables going across footpaths.

The whole infrastructre is a massive challenge alone, and something that they (goverment/builder/whoever) should have started working on years ago.


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## Derekh929 (Aug 28, 2011)

washingitagain said:


> And what about the second hand car market? My limited understanding is that batteries have a finite life and under current prices not economical to replace. So car is scrapped? Not very green... Or maybe there will be a recycle scheme?
> 
> My car might depreciate but at least I know it won't be useless and worthless after 7 or 8 years.


Current batteries some failing before that I believe and some cost £5k so that's going to interesting but not something I'm worried about yet:lol:


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## vsideboy (Sep 1, 2006)

Don't think anyone will own an EV car in the future tbh, range is the issue (not for everyone but for some) and people cannot be bothered to sit in a services for an hour every 100 miles so I can see it being more that you pick a car up from somewhere local to you and drive it to a depot on your journey, then swap it for another fully charged one to drop off at another depot for another fully charged one etc. 

Only way it can work I think as people have said installing infrastructure to everyones house is not achievable but installing car depots everywhere might be more realistic.

Nobody knows!


It would certainly impact on weekend tourism though as who would bother hiring an ev car to take the family out on a weekend? Might mean local pubs are opened up again though as no one will be driving anywhere all weekend.


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## andy665 (Nov 1, 2005)

vsideboy said:


> Don't think anyone will own an EV car in the future tbh, range is the issue (not for everyone but for some) and people cannot be bothered to sit in a services for an hour every 100 miles so I can see it being more that you pick a car up from somewhere local to you and drive it to a depot on your journey, then swap it for another fully charged one to drop off at another depot for another fully charged one etc.


Many EVs now have quoted ranges of 300+ miles, so lets say 220 in the real world, enough for majority of drivers most of the time and recharge times are coming down all the time - I don't see that as the issue, the bigger issue is the sheer number of points required and that's before we get on to the lack of uniformity of charging points - there is not a common standard and that is needed as a matter of urgency



washingitagain said:


> And what about the second hand car market? My limited understanding is that batteries have a finite life and under current prices not economical to replace. So car is scrapped? Not very green... Or maybe there will be a recycle scheme?
> 
> My car might depreciate but at least I know it won't be useless and worthless after 7 or 8 years.


There is a high level of recycling possible with batteries - at 60% of original capacity that's enough for a Tesla wallbox, prices of batteries are coming down and life expectancy is proving to be much better than expected - the critical thing is to limit the number of fast charges you make, don't go below 10%capacity and try not to go above 80% recharge unless you need to

Lets not forget that battery technology is advancing all the time, not only in terms of capacity and recharge but also in its base form, solid state and supercapicators are seeing major leaps forward

But banning ICE from 2035 - its a small market trying to force the pace of technology innovation - if China announced they were banning ICE from 2035 then that WOULD see real change


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## Andyblue (Jun 20, 2017)

My understanding is they’re banning “New” car sales that are petrol / diesel / hybrid from 2035

Can’t understand it really... we don’t have and can’t see having the infrastructure or being able to actually produce enough electricity...


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## andy665 (Nov 1, 2005)

/


Andyblue said:


> My understanding is they're banning "New" car sales that are petrol / diesel / hybrid from 2035


Correct - hybrid was not part of the original plan for 2040 - that would have meant that ICE vehicles could still have been sold as long as their was a hybrid element to it - I suspect this will be re-instated after the "consultation" period


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## RandomlySet (Jul 10, 2007)

vsideboy said:


> Don't think anyone will own an EV car in the future tbh....


I predicted this years ago, in fact almost a decade a go!

Look at at the film Minority Report, on the DVD there was a "behind the scenes" interview, and spoke how they had a "futureologist" or something help with the film... IIRC, the film was set 50 years in the future, and rather than making wild predictions like teleportation such as movies from the 80s that were set in the future, he made realistic predictions for the film.

One of those predictions was self driving cars - which we now have. Going further into it, no-one owned a car, a car comes to them...

It's my prediction that all you need is someone like Tesla to team up with a company like Uber and boom. You have a car at your door when you need it.

That's the realistic future. Companies will offer subscription services, and maybe different tiers, or you flat fee per month and then an excess should you need to beckon a 7 seater, or luxury saloon rather than a standard hatch for example.


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## millns84 (Jul 5, 2009)

I'm surprised we've gone 2 pages without anyone mentioning:-

1. African children mining cobalt.
2. The environmental impact of lithium mining/transporting said lithium half way across the globe.
3. That the electricity for these eco-miracles on wheels is produced largely by coal/oil/nuclear power.
4. Renewable energy production not being at all viable.

I'm sure there was a case in the UK where a coal fired power plant (Drax?) converted to wood chippings to reduce CO2. It turned out after the expensive modifications that it was actually producing more CO2... Oh and the wood chippings were for some reason imported from the States.


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## vsideboy (Sep 1, 2006)

RandomlySet said:


> I predicted this years ago


Hang On.......



RandomlySet said:


> spoke how they had a "futureologist" or something help with the film...One of those predictions was no-one owned a car


So you predicted it by just copying the thoughts of a futureologist then?

Joking Mat .:lol:


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## vsideboy (Sep 1, 2006)

millns84 said:


> I'm surprised we've gone 2 pages without anyone mentioning:-
> 
> 1. African children mining cobalt.
> 2. The environmental impact of lithium mining/transporting said lithium half way across the globe.
> ...


Yeah government forgot about that lot, as long as stupid petrol and diesel cars aren't used then everyone gets a big fat Christmas bonus.


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## andy665 (Nov 1, 2005)

millns84 said:


> I'm surprised we've gone 2 pages without anyone mentioning:-
> 
> 1. African children mining cobalt.
> 2. The environmental impact of lithium mining/transporting said lithium half way across the globe.
> ...


Agreed, hence my earlier comment



andy665 said:


> I'd really like to see someone properly study the "whole life" environmental footprint of EVs against ULEVs and ICE (both petrol and diesel) - say over 15 years / 150k miles, from point of extraction of raw materials to point of disposal - seems strange that the environmental campaigners have not done so - or maybe they have and do not like the results.


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## Juke_Fan (Jul 12, 2014)

We are going to need very good infrastructure very soon as a lot of eco new builds I am seeing locally have no garages and the estate has limited parking/pavements to encourage kids to play in the road.

Can just see all the cars parked up blocking the pedestrian friendly roads with charging leads trailing out of front room windows.

....unsolicited call.....I understand you have had a no fault accident where you tripped over a charging cable.......


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## Derekh929 (Aug 28, 2011)

Juke_Fan said:


> We are going to need very good infrastructure very soon as a lot of eco new builds I am seeing locally have no garages and the estate has limited parking/pavements to encourage kids to play in the road.
> 
> Can just see all the cars parked up blocking the pedestrian friendly roads with charging leads trailing out of front room windows.
> 
> ....unsolicited call.....I understand you have had a no fault accident where you tripped over a charging cable.......


That's the big issue that's why we need magnetic charging bays that cars can charge in all spaces without cable , but we aint got the cash to do that, Scalextric style future at office block. two spaces local have the same cars parked there all day so tourists could not charge their cars.
Absolutely no forward thinking to a decision of this magnitude


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## RS3 (Mar 5, 2018)

RandomlySet said:


> I predicted this years ago, in fact almost a decade a go!
> 
> Look at at the film Minority Report, on the DVD there was a "behind the scenes" interview, and spoke how they had a "futureologist" or something help with the film... IIRC, the film was set 50 years in the future, and rather than making wild predictions like teleportation such as movies from the 80s that were set in the future, he made realistic predictions for the film.
> 
> ...


This is why I hate HS2. It totally lacks insight or ambition. As a petrol head I'm not looking forward to my prediction but I'd say within 15 years from now (HS2 will still be being built) we will be able to book a car on the mobile, it will turn up within minutes, no need for a licence as you wont drive it (can be used by disabled and even children potentially) and it will take you to your destination whilst you have watched a movie or held a conference call etc. These new world cars will travel at at least 100 mph 3 inches from each other so no more traffic jams etc. The government should invest in high speed road networks in place of the railways as they will ALL be obsolete within 20 years. HS2 should have been built 30 years ago. It's too late now.


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## Andy from Sandy (May 6, 2011)

The only infrastructure that will work for everyone is wireless with the charge point in the road for those living in terraced streets with no off road parking.



> Battery improvements will increase range and charge times soon so that these will be viable for more people.


To get an increased range clearly requires a larger capacity battery. At present there is I believe a 50kW charger. That means a flat 50kW battery can be recharged in 1 hour. Nissan state it could take 90 minutes to get the 62kW battery charged from 20% to 80%.

Having looked at the size of the cable now if the power doubled to half the charge time that is going to be one very heavy cable to manhandle with the consequent changes in the car to support it will be very costly.

Using the charging stations that are in place now I don't think are sustainable. I haven't put any thought into what might replace it though.


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## phillipnoke (Apr 1, 2011)

Electric cars are a joke i noticed the other day VW POLO electric 131 miles with one charge


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## The Cueball (Feb 8, 2007)

Soooo.. I'm the only one on here with a EV then?

:lol:


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## Soul boy 68 (Sep 8, 2013)

Imagine this! You're on a long journey to somewhere for an important event, You realize that your charge is running low so you need to stop over to charge your car that then find that the whole forecourt is full of cars on charge. you'll have a lengthy wait before it's your turn costing you valuable time and stress in the process.


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## Derekh929 (Aug 28, 2011)

The Cueball said:


> Soooo.. I'm the only one on here with a EV then?
> 
> :lol:


Is this to balance out your Zero carbon foot print:lol:


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## The Cueball (Feb 8, 2007)

Derekh929 said:


> Is this to balance out your Zero carbon foot print:lol:


:spam:

:lol:

Every little helps!


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## GeeWhizRS (Nov 1, 2019)

The Cueball said:


> Soooo.. I'm the only one on here with a EV then?


Nope. :thumb:



Andy from Sandy said:


> At present there is I believe a 50kW charger. That means a flat 50kW battery can be recharged in 1 hour.


It doesn't work like that Andy. It'll charge at that rate up to about 80% and then slow the charge rate to prevent over-heating. See below, that's mine charging over night; just a top up charge, you can see how the kW lowers as it's getting full. So you'd only really charge up to that 80% point and then head off if you were out and about. Of course, I'm saying all this and never used a charge point other than the one at home, never needed to. :lol:


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## washingitagain (Sep 11, 2018)

Soul boy 68 said:


> Imagine this! You're on a long journey to somewhere for an important event, You realize that your charge is running low so you need to stop over to charge your car that then find that the whole forecourt is full of cars on charge. you'll have a lengthy wait before it's your turn costing you valuable time and stress in the process.


When the technology has caught up, charging will be fast. Think back to your mobile phone from a few years ago. Mine now 'charges rapidly'.

I'm sure one day the roads will charge the cars as we drive but I really can't see the infrastructure being there for many decades. The council can't even fix the pothole down my road.


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## Carscope (Sep 4, 2019)

I work in the car industry and I'm telling you now there is no way this can happen, the amount of red tape to get a car on the road will force this rule further. It's literally impossible 

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk


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## Andy from Sandy (May 6, 2011)

> It doesn't work like that Andy. It'll charge at that rate up to about 80% and then slow the charge rate to prevent over-heating.


Thanks, which means the situation is even worse than my simplistic best case.

To install batteries that have higher capacity for increased range will make the situation even worse for those that need the range, which was the premise of my original post.


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## Soul boy 68 (Sep 8, 2013)

washingitagain said:


> When the technology has caught up, charging will be fast. Think back to your mobile phone from a few years ago. Mine now 'charges rapidly'.
> 
> I'm sure one day the roads will charge the cars as we drive but I really can't see the infrastructure being there for many decades. The council can't even fix the pothole down my road.


It's not so much how fast the charging points can charge but getting a spot in the first place will be the problem, I wouldn't fancy waiting for a length of time to grab a point if the whole forecourt is packed with cars and especially if you're in a hurry. And what about those charging points that could be out of order? Or vandalized ? and how about all the people who don't have off street parking? People who have to park in the next street because their parking space has been taken up by someone else? How are you supposed to charge your car then? People who work shifts and can't get a spot. And how about trip hazards? Cables running across public foot paths and what about those people living in tower blocks? how long is their cable going to be?, what about unruly teenagers unplugging chargers from the vehicles. So many permutations that millions could be faced with. How about a scenario where you are driving down the M25 and you don't have enough charge left to get you to a charging point, your car will stutter and stop dead ahead on the hard shoulder or a smart motor way. These will be real world scenarios.


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## andy__d (Jun 27, 2018)

andy665 said:


> So what do we think of the government bring forward its EV plans to 2035.
> 
> Of far more significance and not really picked up by the media is the inclusion of all new ICE cars / vans after 2035, the original plan was to allow ICE after 2040 as long as they had a hybrid element.
> 
> ...


utter b/s 
Electric is NOT the answer but the brain deads will never see that
Forcing people to adopt Seriously Flawed tech, that is FAR more "dirty" than the current tech B/S

sooner some of the brain deads wake up and scrap this utter ****** the better


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## Crackfox (Mar 17, 2019)

No more In Car Entertainment? What the flip!

Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk


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## DLGWRX02 (Apr 6, 2010)

The Cueball said:


> Soooo.. I'm the only one on here with a EV then?
> 
> :lol:





GeeWhizRS said:


> Nope. :thumb:


Nope, me too :wave:


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## DLGWRX02 (Apr 6, 2010)

washingitagain said:


> When the technology has caught up, charging will be fast. Think back to your mobile phone from a few years ago. Mine now 'charges rapidly'.
> 
> I'm sure one day the roads will charge the cars as we drive but I really can't see the infrastructure being there for many decades. The council can't even fix the pothole down my road.


They doing this already in either Switzerland or Sweden can't remember which but they installing power into the road surface so as HGV's drive over them, they lower a rod and act like scaletrix cars they charge as they drive.


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## JoeyJoeJo (Jan 3, 2014)

This is an interesting read on the raw material requirements for an initiative like this (and extrapolated globally), not just to build the cars but to supply the energy to charge them.

https://www.nhm.ac.uk/press-office/...ut-resource-challenge-of-meeting-net-zer.html

They aspire to be zero by 2050, so stop selling ICE 2035 so an anticipated lifespan for the last ICE cars of 15 years, this seems optimistic and with the infrastructure points already made, definitely a challenge.

I did read an article a few years ago that was discussing that someone with an old gas guzzling classic who does 4000 miles a year leisure motoring carried a lower total footprint than someone who might hire a new car occasionally or use a car club and do similar mileage by the time all the recycling, reclamation, new car build etc is taken into account.
Could be BS manipulation of numbers but I could see it being the case.


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## Caledoniandream (Oct 9, 2009)

For once nobody has a petrol station at their door step, some of us need to travel 14 miles each way to fill up a car.
Even if in a hurry I can not fuel faster up, it all comes down to planning. 
Battery technology has come on in leaps and bounds, I remember my first mobile phone 3 hours stand by on a small motorbike battery (the thing weighed 8kg) now I have a mini laptop / widescreen tv with constant gps and internet with a battery life of over 48 hours.
When the first Toyota Prius came out people predicted that the batteries only would last a few years, there are still loads of hybrids of the first generation running around with their original battery.
If the demand grow, the recycling will grow, it’s pointless to build a large factory for 5 batteries a year, 50.000 gives a different opportunity.
The Governements are spending a hell lot of money in building charging networks, there is a big project in London going on, putting high voltage powerlines under ground.
Charging times will be short, and if you download Tomtom charging point maps, you will be surprised how many charging points there are, even in remote areas, and it’s growing on a daily base.

While I love ICE, I am afraid that the naysayers are going to be wrong this time, it will happen.

And of course the option not mentioned is hydrogen, either in fuel cells, or in combustion, the best out of both worlds.

A lot of people on here sound like the old horse menders from the late 19 th century, “an engine will never replace a horse” yes it did!
Time moved on, we moved from human power, into horses, steam, ICE, and now it’s time for the next one.


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## Crackfox (Mar 17, 2019)

You may not even have to sit and charge. Buy a new battery at the "battery station" and get on your way. Leaving the old one to be recharged for the next person.

I found this interesting.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...-drivers-1-500-miles-without-charging-it.html

Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk


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## Caledoniandream (Oct 9, 2009)

Crackfox said:


> You may not even have to sit and charge. Buy a new battery at the "battery station" and get on your way. Leaving the old one to be recharged for the next person.
> 
> I found this interesting.
> 
> ...


I was a foreman in a Volvo foundry in the 80's, and that is what we did witte electric fork lifts, in minutes we changed the empty battery for a charged one.


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## vsideboy (Sep 1, 2006)

Crackfox said:


> No more In Car Entertainment? What the flip!
> 
> Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk


That's exactly what I thought initially mate. :lol:

And with the electric charge points, when is an 'electric car not an electric car? I was at a shopping centre the other day and a BMW Hybrid pulled into one of the electric charging parking spaces, am I wrong thinking that the hybrid should charge the electric back up? I thought that was a bit nasty for anyone with a full electric that then couldn't charge up because hybrid man is pinching the parking space.


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## Darlofan (Nov 24, 2010)

Quite easy for politicians/Boris to come up with these schemes for years in the future. He knows full well he won't be PM in 2035 so can sit back when it doesn't happen and blame everyone else.


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## percymon (Jun 27, 2007)

Having run a LEAF 30kW for just over two years I can say it was great for the daily 50mile round trip commute, and local trips to the town/shops etc. However when travelling to from South to North Wales / North West it was a nightmare - only two charging stations away from the motorway network at the time (one always on free, but you never knew if it was working because it was effectively non contacatble by EV apps). I always stopped at the first of them (13 miles apart), and 66% of the time i was able to hook up straight away, but sometimes had to wait for the previous user to finish (up to an 40 minutes) - fab at 8pm on a Friday night with another hour or more to relatives!

Journeys of 100 mile+ always needed planning, and you always had to have a plan B. Slow chargers (3kW,6kW) in towns or car parks were often hogged by workers who park all day even though they are fully charged after a few hours. These were pointless for mid journey charges as the charge rates were poor (10-15 miles range added for an hour on charge). Rapid chargers were the only mid journey option and the network in Wales was poor, and hasn't really got any better in the 9 months i've been back in diesel. In fairness the likes of LIDL (not in Wales !) are installing a lot of rapid chargers in their store car parks, so if you are in England life probably is a little easier than it was 12 months ago.

china has self charging roads, you charge as you drive from the road surface - since the UK can't even keep a reasonable tarmac road surface , the idea of a reliable smooth electric charged roadway is a fantasy

Car range/battery technology will get better over the years, but you still can't get away from the fact that many towns / cities have rows of old terraced houses with no off road parking, no allocated parking spaces and no means to charge at the kerbside overnight.

Hybrids are by far the most sensible current solution, unless you have offroad parking and a decent range EV model (160miles real world plus). Shell made a big song and dance about installing charges at their petrol forecourts but when you look at their app its mainly London, Birmingham and Manchester, areas already with a reasonable number of other chargers.

There is insufficient infrastruture to support todays models , and there will continue to be reluctance to invest in a charging network, as its contradictory to developing cars with better range/better batteries. At the same time said bigger/better batteries cost more and weight heavier so impacts on vehicle economy and price of vehicles.

It will happen, one day, but i think it will need the younger generations to make it work/accept its limitations - maybe a non car owning/mass transport solution will work in 30 years time - i doubt it given much of our landscape/transport routes exist and the public don't like major projects that disrupt their status quo. Maybe the answer is to make car ownership expensive and a luxury item - it seems to work in the likes of Singapore who have a fantastic transport system of bus and metro at affordable prices.


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## NeilG40 (Jan 1, 2009)

percymon said:


> Having run a LEAF 30kW for just over two years.....


You're comparing a Leaf 30kWh that's already four year old technology though, I had one for two years before getting the Model 3.


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## packard (Jun 8, 2009)

Not a fan of the Daily Fail ... https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/...15-years-doomed-backfire-says-JOHN-NAISH.html

Does open up a bigger debate especially over infrastructure.


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## Darlofan (Nov 24, 2010)

packard said:


> Not a fan of the Daily Fail ... https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/...15-years-doomed-backfire-says-JOHN-NAISH.html
> 
> Does open up a bigger debate especially over infrastructure.


I'll be 65 in 2035 so reckon if I change car just before the ban I'll get well into retirement with an ice car. Then if I survive long enough I can end my days pootling around in a little EV. 😀


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## GeeWhizRS (Nov 1, 2019)

They don't exactly pootle. 😂
Up to say 50mph, there's not many ICE cars that'll catch a half decent EV. The M3 warriors usually give up when they get into second gear and you're already gone.


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## Derekh929 (Aug 28, 2011)

GeeWhizRS said:


> They don't exactly pootle. 😂
> Up to say 50mph, there's not many ICE cars that'll catch a half decent EV. The M3 warriors usually give up when they get into second gear and you're already gone.


Totally agree but when we are still on this planet is it not good to enjoy using our senses with sound and exhilaration on the twisty stuff, and that squeaky bum moments make yo feel alive :thumb:

Give me a v6 hybrid I'm happy , I'm not into the traffic light GP that's for the MaccyD boys


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## GeeWhizRS (Nov 1, 2019)

Sounds like you are better catered for with roads in Aberdeenshire than we are in Lancashire. You take your life in your hands with the condition of most of the roads around here.


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## RS3 (Mar 5, 2018)

West Yorkshire roads are a complete joke as well, especially Kirklees (Huddersfield) and I'm tired of hearing about peoples buckled wheels. I'll bet it's in double figures in the last 3 years or so and that's just people I know.


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## percymon (Jun 27, 2007)

NeilG40 said:


> You're comparing a Leaf 30kWh that's already four year old technology though, I had one for two years before getting the Model 3.


Perhaps, with 100-110 real world range.

If I'd been able to buy a car for £30k with 160 mile real world range then life would have been a lot easier. Nonetheless , if you wanted to travel that distance without guaranteed charging at the destination (ie plug in at relatives house) then you still have to rely on roadside or destination charging, and for practical reasons that has to be
1. available
2. situated conveniently
3. reasonable charge rate

ie who wants to park their car a mile away in an ncp car park overnight to leave it 12 hours to fully charge ?

Bigger batteries - great
Bigger range - great
Faster chargers - bring it on
Enough chargers - PROBLEM - the networks will never keep up/invest to service the cars required.

The network is the problem , whether for home charging (without off road parking) or roadside charging on journeys. Maybe one day a ''petrol station'' will be one petrol/diesel pump and 11 charging EV stations, with rates that mean 80% refill in 10 minutes. I live in hope


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## Andy from Sandy (May 6, 2011)

> If I'd been able to buy a car for £30k...


And that right there is the real crux of the problem when you can get a decent enough new car for less than £20k.


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## Taxboy (Aug 23, 2006)

This is worth a look from Harry's Garage. I find his reviews pretty balanced and rational. This one is less focussed on the car itself but living with an EV 




Sent from my moto g(7) plus using Tapatalk


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## bidderman1969 (Oct 20, 2006)

i find that if you're poor, you won't have an EV at all, and to save money you need to be better off, to buy the things in the first place, having a house with a driveway, etc, just doesn't sit right in my eyes, i don't think id ever be able to afford £35+ for a new EV car, i struggled to buy the Kia for just over £10K nearly 4 1/2 years ago, and im not poor or well off


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## Darlofan (Nov 24, 2010)

bidderman1969 said:


> i find that if you're poor, you won't have an EV at all, and to save money you need to be better off, to buy the things in the first place, having a house with a driveway, etc, just doesn't sit right in my eyes, i don't think id ever be able to afford £35+ for a new EV car, i struggled to buy the Kia for just over £10K nearly 4 1/2 years ago, and im not poor or well off


Totally agree, the most I've spent on a car is 11k. Could get one for 35k with finance but why would I? 24k more for a car that will do nothing more than my 11k one!!


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## Chris Dyson (Feb 29, 2012)

millns84 said:


> I think it's absolutely ridiculous, not least because this government is meant to be "conservative" and thus shouldn't fall for the extreme environmentalist nonsense.
> 
> We emit around 1% of global CO2, around 20% of which is from transport.
> 
> ...


I agree, the idea to ban the sale of all new petrol cars by 2035 is absolutely ridiculous and completely unnecessary..

The total amount of CO2 in the atmosphere is only 0.04%￼. Of that 0.04%, less than 3% is created by human beings and domesticated animals worldwide. Sadly, people blindly believe anyone that proclaims themselves a scientist. Many are not.

Most CO2 produced by human beings is produced through electricity generation and heavy industry, which would include the production of batteries for electric cars (which by the way only last for eight years), and the cars themselves. See the irony there! The 20% caused by transport is mostly from trucks and air travel.

Even if every country in the world reduced their CO2 output to nil, it would not have a noticeable effect on the climate. The problem is that the computer models used to calculate the increase in CO2 in the atmosphere are fundamentally flawed. Also the idea that global warming is bad is also flawed.

Which is why this whole climate change hysteria is so wrong and potentially damaging to the planet and global economies.
Far from being evil, CO2 is good for the planet.

We need more of it in the atmosphere not less. Why? Because it is the life blood of all plant life on the planet. More CO2 means bigger more healthy crops. Remember plants absorb CO2 and emit oxygen (https://co2coalition.org/frequently-asked-questions/).

Why is there so much hysteria? Because the politicians and policy makers have been bamboozled by erroneous science and the protestations of a naive 15 year old Swedish schoolgirl! LONG LIVE ICE!


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## AnthonyUK (Jul 25, 2018)

Great to see that the findings of the global, scientifically proven consensus has been comprehensively debunked in a few posts by unqualified peeps on a car cleaning forum


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## Darlofan (Nov 24, 2010)

AnthonyUK said:


> Great to see that the findings of the global, scientifically proven consensus has been comprehensively debunked in a few posts by unqualified peeps on a car cleaning forum


That the same consensus that told us all diesel was cleaner than petrol 20yrs ago?


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## Andy from Sandy (May 6, 2011)

> That the same consensus that told us all diesel was cleaner than petrol 20yrs ago?


As I understand it they produce less CO2 than petrol and that was the measure back then. Now we know they have higher emissions of NOx and much higher emissions of particulate matter.

The side effect of not buying diesels in favour of petrol is since 2014 levels of CO2 has been rising and for what ever reason peoples' buying habits have changed in favour of SUVs that generate even more.


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## AnthonyUK (Jul 25, 2018)

Darlofan said:


> That the same consensus that told us all diesel was cleaner than petrol 20yrs ago?


There was no evidence that diesels were 'cleaner', just lower in CO2. Look it up.

https://www.google.com/search?q=why+did+government+promote+diesel


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## Darlofan (Nov 24, 2010)

AnthonyUK said:


> There was no evidence that diesels were 'cleaner', just lower in CO2. Look it up.
> 
> https://www.google.com/search?q=why+did+government+promote+diesel


First one I looked at.

In 2001, the then Chancellor Gordon Brown introduced a new system of car tax aimed at protecting the environment.

Maybe using the word cleaner in my first comment was wrong but what I'm getting at is the government tell us one thing then change their minds 20 yrs later. I think we all know that some scientists are going to turn around at some point and say batteries and electric cars are not as good as first thought.


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## AnthonyUK (Jul 25, 2018)

Darlofan said:


> I think we all know that some scientists are going to turn around at some point and say batteries and electric cars are not as good as first thought.


In what way say compared to current ICE?

What we do all know is that they will only be as clean as the source of the energy used. Current battery chemistry is not great but it is a moving target.


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## Caledoniandream (Oct 9, 2009)

Darlofan said:


> First one I looked at.
> 
> In 2001, the then Chancellor Gordon Brown introduced a new system of car tax aimed at protecting the environment.
> 
> Maybe using the word cleaner in my first comment was wrong but what I'm getting at is the government tell us one thing then change their minds 20 yrs later. I think we all know that some scientists are going to turn around at some point and say batteries and electric cars are not as good as first thought.


That will always happen regardless, the more we know, the more we what is dangerous or maybe not as dangerous as we in the first instance where thinking.
In the 1960 when I was a child, eating to much eggs was bad for you, maximum one a week.
Now is the thought totally different.
Diesel created less co2, but we didn't want black smoking (with big soot particles what we could easy cough up) so diesel got created cleaner, higher combustion temperature, leaner, and it created a rod for his own back...NOx.
Now we creating adblu as this is a solution to reduce NOx, in five years time we will find out that adblu (ammonia) create acid rain. 
And so on.


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## millns84 (Jul 5, 2009)

AnthonyUK said:


> Great to see that the findings of the global, scientifically proven consensus has been comprehensively debunked in a few posts by unqualified peeps on a car cleaning forum


Haha - A bunch of scientists funded by governments (and are reliant on such funding) suggest measures to save the world. Governments then decide to save the world by increasing taxes. Taxes then used to fund more research to recommend further measures to save the world, resulting in higher taxes.

Even the much lauded Paris Agreement allows China to increase their emissions until 2030 (you know, the year that 16 year old climate puppet said we'd all die) while the West cripples themselves saving the world. Good old redistribution of wealth - It's once again back to Communism, but on a global scale.

It's not about saving the world or controlling pollution, its about controlling people. The Green movement are watermelons.


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