# Why BMW is no longer the leader in luxury sales.



## Exotica (Feb 27, 2006)

I must admit I was a fanboy in the past but mediocre design now and reliability issues have taken me elsewhere .


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## Harry_p (Mar 18, 2015)

The new cars are all getting uglier and uglier, 1 series has lost its rwd usp and the dealers seem to be about 95% useless and/or incompetent.

I like the old ones but doubt I'd ever buy a new one.


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## SteveTDCi (Feb 8, 2006)

I guess it depends on how you define luxury, something can be a luxury product but poorly built (BMW, Audi etc) but you can have well built with cheaper interiors (Kia/Hyundai)


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## muzzer (Feb 13, 2011)

I seem to recall that the new 135i will be a 4 pot turbo


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## andy665 (Nov 1, 2005)

German reliability and quality is now a mere myth perpetuated by people who once enjoyed actual German quality and reliability that started to disappear in the late 1980s

Union strength with "works council's" are killing the required changes in work practices - if you have not worked with Germans in Germany you an have no comprehension of how strangled German industry is becoming - whilst lovely people they are extremely frustrating to work with much of the time - terrified of making decisions or of doing anything differently


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## Gas head (May 28, 2010)

Have to agree with most of the comments made, reflecting of the 15 or so german cars that were meant to be luxury brands I have owned inc Porsche merc audi vw, I can say I've only liked 2 of those cars, the rest were overpriced rubbish albeit I still have 3 German cars on the driveway, wont be buying german again for a while.


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## bigmac3161 (Jul 24, 2013)

Just don’t think there as well made as they used to be last 2 e92’s I had fell apart around me from new never again I’m afraid. 


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## pt1 (Feb 8, 2014)

They makes some ugly, worse cars now...not the brand they were

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## Nick-ST (Mar 4, 2013)

I wouldn't have another modern BMW personally. My M135i had nothing but reliability issues, which on a car less than 4 years old with 30k on the clock is completely unacceptable in my opinion.


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

Nick-ST said:


> I wouldn't have another modern BMW personally. My M135i had nothing but reliability issues, which on a car less than 4 years old with 30k on the clock is completely unacceptable in my opinion.


What went wrong with it?


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

For as long as I've been on the internet BMW have been continuously called out for not being the cars they allegedly are/once were. 

What surprises me in no other car company comes under the same scrutiny and negativity.


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## Cookies (Dec 10, 2008)

I've owned a 3 series since january 2016, when I bought it new. Apart from an EGR fault, and a recent steering rack knock (both fixed under warranty) I havent had any bother at all. The car feels very well put together, and hopefully will last me for another few years. 

Would I buy another? I think i would. The new 3 series has grown on me. 

Cooks

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## andy665 (Nov 1, 2005)

Kerr said:


> For as long as I've been on the internet BMW have been continuously called out for not being the cars they allegedly are/once were.
> 
> What surprises me in no other car company comes under the same scrutiny and negativity.


I think the issue is that the "premium" manufacturers historic core values have been watered down in efforts to raise margins and appeal to more customers

BMW majored on driving appeal which has been watered down

Mercedes were renowned for quality which has taken a hit

Audi was about being subtle and restrained and that has definitely been watered down

Of the 3 I'd suspect that as most car forums are inhabited by people more interested in driving dynics than quality or design restraint then it's not surprising that BMW has come under more scrutiny


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

andy665 said:


> I think the issue is that the "premium" manufacturers historic core values have been watered down in efforts to raise margins and appeal to more customers
> 
> BMW majored on driving appeal which has been watered down
> 
> ...


More people want fancy mod cons than they want a raw drivers' car. I still say like for like most BMWs drive better than rivals.

I was in a Mondeo taxi(first time in years) was the quality anywhere near a 3 series? Not remotely close.

Maybe their margins are better these days, but the way most people buy their cars these days they are giving their customers more. Mr Mondeo man now buys a BMW as the cost of owning a Ford is more expensive than a BMW.

BMW were losing sales to Audi as lots of people were demanding 4wd. BMW adjust their range to suit demand and still get ripped for doing it.

I'm not going to claim BMW are the best cars in the world, I'm not going to say they are the most reliable, but the level of knocking has gotten a bit much.


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## Rayaan (Jun 1, 2014)

Maybe its just me, but I think the competition has got a lot more fierce. Its hard to buy a properly bad vehicle nowadays and I suspect most will buy based on looks of the interior/exterior.

Take the 3 series, it now has proper competition from the A4, C-Class, XE, IS, Model 3. None of the models mentioned above are bad in any particular way. I can remember the days when the 3 series handling was amazing and the C-class was a very good wafter. It seems modern cars are quite capable of everything so look and design tend to play a bigger part than ever


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## mar00 (Jun 24, 2018)

BMW as with most manufactures don't want to make the best car they can they want produce what they can get away with for most profit, if think only Lexus are still interested in quality too, Porsche have a few in the range that put engineering over profit, Honda have the Type R and Toyota have one coming too, 

but as above most people prefer gadgets over reliability and quality, 

BMW have have AWD almost as long as Audi about 3 year less, i've driven them in Europe and I think nicer to drive on road at that time, but they've not done a good job of it this time around, as a whole still up there but need more cars like the M2,


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## Mark R5 (May 21, 2013)

I agree with the sentiment but will say that compared to my bag standard 60 plate Ford Focus, most BMW cars will seem to be a bit of a luxury. 

Having said that, I am super impressed with the good lady's new (to her) 17 plate VW Tiguan. It's an absolute dream to drive.


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## cole_scirocco (Mar 5, 2012)

Having seen the new model and currently driving an E90 and also E91 I personally won't be buying a newer one than the F30 shape. The new one isn't that nice in my opinion, nor any others. I mean the massive grilles... come on?

I bought my E90 with 60k on and the E91 with 103k on the clock, both are fantastic and well serviced so no real reason to change either.


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## Nick-ST (Mar 4, 2013)

Kerr said:


> What went wrong with it?


Rocker cover gasket needed renewing as it had a small weep. Had rough ideal on and off throughout my ownership as well as smell of petrol fumes in the cabin when stationary. Oh and to top it off the steering rack was beginning to knock. The rack is a well know fault on pretty much any modern BMW with an electric power steering rack.

The rack was also the final straw for me!


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## SteveTDCi (Feb 8, 2006)

Our carpark is currently a resting ground for Germany's finest

Mini - N47 timing chain and turbo
BMW clutch and DMF failure
17 plate golf - dead, fuel problems
N47 E60 turbo gone

Before crimbo, A3 decided it needed a new dashpod - Audi only
and a 15 plate A3 lunched its DSG box, £3500 ... we sent that elsewhere.


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## Exotica (Feb 27, 2006)

U.S Recall


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## stealthwolf (Sep 24, 2008)

As a child growing up in the late 80s and early 90s, BMW cars were seen as the must have for the younger succesful businessman. It showed that you had made it. Mercedes were more for the slightly older gentleman who wanted comfort. At least that's the way I saw it.

Today, the way I see it, brands have diluted down through multiple models in an attempt to cater for every driver. PCP has meant the cars are affordable to someone with an average income. All day, I see Mercedes, BMW and Audi cars. None of them astound me the way they would when I was a child. I no longer equate any of them with "success" - that's now reserved for either supercars, or the likes of Bentley and Rolls Royce.


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## ollienoclue (Jan 30, 2017)

For me, BMW, Audi and Merc don't have the appeal any longer. I've lost track on the models they make. Some of them are downright hideous or drastically overlap with their siblings.

Having 4 wheel drive models etc has nothing to do with it, the popularity of these cars is more to do with their marketing and who can offer the best PCP deals. That is why they are on the roads in droves.

As above- only serious professionals could afford a BMW 5 or 7 series back in the day. Today that exclusivity has gone.


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## Soul boy 68 (Sep 8, 2013)

All I can say is that I’m on my second BMW and had no problems with them. To me they’re well built and great to drive.


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## packard (Jun 8, 2009)

stealthwolf said:


> As a child growing up in the late 80s and early 90s, BMW cars were seen as the must have for the younger succesful businessman. It showed that you had made it. Mercedes were more for the slightly older gentleman who wanted comfort. At least that's the way I saw it.
> 
> Today, the way I see it, brands have diluted down through multiple models in an attempt to cater for every driver. PCP has meant the cars are affordable to someone with an average income. All day, I see Mercedes, BMW and Audi cars. None of them astound me the way they would when I was a child. I no longer equate any of them with "success" - that's now reserved for either supercars, or the likes of Bentley and Rolls Royce.


Exactly, I'm just so confused now what to get next between Audi, BMW, MERC and various Japanese makes as the quality for some isn't there.


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## ollienoclue (Jan 30, 2017)

packard said:


> Exactly, I'm just so confused now what to get next between Audi, BMW, MERC and various Japanese makes as the quality for some isn't there.


Lexus.


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## mar00 (Jun 24, 2018)

ollienoclue said:


> Lexus.


I'd like another Lexus, but they have had their big problems too as have Toyota, but still always top in reliability,

I hope the new ISF still happens, wish they'd make or GT3/GT2 , but they have a good range of good cars now,


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## ollienoclue (Jan 30, 2017)

mar00 said:


> I'd like another Lexus, but they have had their big problems too as have Toyota, but still always top in reliability,
> 
> I hope the new ISF still happens, wish they'd make or GT3/GT2 , but they have a good range of good cars now,


If I could get away with it I would have an ISF right now. Far rarer than an M3.


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

ollienoclue said:


> If I could get away with it I would have an ISF right now. Far rarer than an M3.


Rarer, but not as good to drive. They don't perform to anywhere near 420bhp either.

The straight line performance is slightly slower than a M235i which has nearly 100bhp less.


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## andy665 (Nov 1, 2005)

Kerr said:


> Rarer, but not as good to drive. They don't perform to anywhere near 420bhp either.
> 
> The straight line performance is slightly slower than a M235i which has nearly 100bhp less.


I have been driven in IS Fs at various circuits by professional drivers and all I can say is that their performance and handling dynamics are way beypnd my capabilities


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## mar00 (Jun 24, 2018)

andy665 said:


> I have been driven in IS Fs at various circuits by professional drivers and all I can say is that their performance and handling dynamics are way beypnd my capabilities


the post 2011 IS-F is quicker than an M3 at most circuits and faster in a straight line, it's different to drive but as good too,

235i is over 200KG lighter so about the same power to weight and with new tech so should be a bit quicker,


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## packard (Jun 8, 2009)

ollienoclue said:


> Lexus.


Considered but about £6-8k over budget (enough for wifey new To her car,)


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## ollienoclue (Jan 30, 2017)

Kerr said:


> Rarer, but not as good to drive. They don't perform to anywhere near 420bhp either.
> 
> The straight line performance is slightly slower than a M235i which has nearly 100bhp less.


As fast as a M253i, in what circumstance?

I would never have any intention of tracking the car. I don't like modern BMWs as turbocharging is for girls and the only M3 I would consider is the E92 which I know for a fact has a pretty lazy engine compared to many cars.


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

ollienoclue said:


> As fast as a M253i, in what circumstance?
> 
> I would never have any intention of tracking the car. I don't like modern BMWs as turbocharging is for girls and the only M3 I would consider is the E92 which I know for a fact has a pretty lazy engine compared to many cars.


Straight line speed and acceleration figures anything this side of 120+mph.

Turbocharging makes perfect sense as a daily driver. Good low down torque making it an easy drive in real world c9nditions.

The E92 M3 isn't a lazy engine. It is high revving and needs working hard to get the performance out of it.


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