# Victoria Concours Wax



## Ross (Apr 25, 2007)

Whats peoples views on this?Ive heard really good things about it and fancy giving it ago


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## caledonia (Sep 13, 2008)

Same here only heard good things on my 2009 wish list.
As if I dont have enough waxes. :lol:
Well I guess another one will not go a miss. 

Gordon


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## Ross (Apr 25, 2007)

caledonia said:


> Same here only heard good things on my 2009 wish list.
> As if I dont have enough waxes. :lol:
> Well I guess another one will not go a miss.
> 
> Gordon


In the same boat as you:thumb:


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## Epoch (Jul 30, 2006)

Nice deep glossy look that doesn't mask flake 

I'd recomend it if you didn't want to plump for SN


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## Dipesh (Oct 12, 2007)

Me 3 guys, theres so many i want to try out in 2009! This is on my list too. Only prob is, i've got 3 LSP's that i've not even opened yet!


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## Gandi (Dec 18, 2007)

Its a very good wax and has surprisingly good durability, it smells nice and does actually add something to the finish, like a warm glow would be my way to describe it lol


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## Dave KG (Feb 23, 2006)

Victoria Concours Wax - an old favourite  ... Search back a few months and you will find this wax was one of my preferred choices for finishing off a detail, indeed I still highly recommend it and still use it myself.

As with all things in this world of detailing, many products loose air time after a while as the new and exciting ones come in, but that doesn't mean they are no longer as good as the competition. The measure of a product is how it stands the test of time and whether it is still being sold months, years down the line or whether it truly has been superceeded... 

In the case of Victoria Concours, it still has a loyal fan base and justifiabily so for it can hold its own alongside the new and older established competition. For me, I agree with Epoch in that is adds a slightly glossy look to the finish - I likened it to ***** Glasur only at a fraction of the price... Water beading wasn't as tight as the Glasur but durability in the long run measured comparable for me at a good two months or more.

Well worth a punt if you are looking for a new wax to try out


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## Ross (Apr 25, 2007)

Looks like iam going to be getting some


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## caledonia (Sep 13, 2008)

Epoch said:


> Nice deep glossy look that doesn't mask flake
> 
> I'd recomend it if you didn't want to plump for SN


Do you reckon that SN is a better wax than the Victoria Concours.
I suppose what I am asking if I had the money to buy SN. Would I be better with this or to go for the Concours and use the balance on something else.

Gordon.


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## parish (Jun 29, 2006)

+5

Here is Mr. Andy_C of these forums applying it to the rear 3/4 of my black Saab (DW meet at Parc Ferme Apr 07). I really could see the difference between the wing and the door and on the strength of that bought a tub. Good durability and beading too (though not in the Collinite league of course). Highly recommended. :thumb:


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## Epoch (Jul 30, 2006)

caledonia said:


> Do you reckon that SN is a better wax than the Victoria Concours.
> I suppose what I am asking if I had the money to buy SN. Would I be better with this or to go for the Concours and use the balance on something else.
> 
> Gordon.


Depends what else you want/need in your detailing kit box

I prefer SN (even noting the price difference), but if I didn't have a good paint cleanser I'd say a paint cleanser and Concours was a better buy than SN alone etc.

Always a hard call as £30 extra on wax doesn't give you as much as £30 of something you don't have.

Sorry not to be more solid, However i know you have Carlack AIO, (One of the best paint cleaners just no glazing agents) Gordon and SN is a super product for the money


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## Dave KG (Feb 23, 2006)

Epoch said:


> Depends what else you want/need in your detailing kit box
> 
> I prefer SN (even noting the price difference), but if I didn't have a good paint cleanser I'd say a paint cleanser and Concours was a better buy than SN alone etc.
> 
> ...


I know its difficult with such small differences in nuances being considered (sorry, that word again, but its the best I can think of! :lol but can you elaborate on what it is about Supernatural (V2 I guess?) that you prefer?

I remember V1 being very similar in style to Concours which is probably why I liked it (despite the durability which for me was low, though I reckon V2 also sorts this out...)... If anything, perhaps I need to revisit Supernatural again but having V1 and having experienced low durability from it personally, winter really isn't the time to try it on the Volvo which leads a hard life.


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## caledonia (Sep 13, 2008)

Keep this going Lads this is why I love Dw.
I am not just happy to know it works, but want to know why it works, its benefits and also the downside. I am a great believer in understanding the products, when, where, how and what benefits it has on durability and looks.


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## Epoch (Jul 30, 2006)

Dave KG said:


> I know its difficult with such small differences in nuances being considered (sorry, that word again, but its the best I can think of! :lol but can you elaborate on what it is about Supernatural (V2 I guess?) that you prefer?
> 
> I remember V1 being very similar in style to Concours which is probably why I liked it (despite the durability which for me was low, though I reckon V2 also sorts this out...)... If anything, perhaps I need to revisit Supernatural again but having V1 and having experienced low durability from it personally, winter really isn't the time to try it on the Volvo which leads a hard life.


Yep no problem Dave.

The V2 SN (2.00 & 2.01) builds on the subtle glossy "nuance" and IMHO adds a slight reflective brightness that adds a little more to the finish.

The main advantage is the free rinsing and sheeting ability which carries a lot more weight in the scheme of things. I like a product that keeps the car cleanest for longest.

I agree all these things are slight, but I have about 8 waxes on the wifes car and there is a difference between many not just the money, however this is the biggest difference.


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## Epoch (Jul 30, 2006)

I'll add as it's relavant

I have a 50:50 on the front of SN V1 and V2 and both are still evident even though they were applied at the start of August (Car is garaged and dried at night since November).

V2 is the better beader and sheeter, was at initial application and still is today.


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## organgrinder (Jan 20, 2008)

I have Vics Concours, Vics Collectors, SN V1 and CG50/50 V1. Of that lot I liked to use the CG 50/50 best because it was so easy to use and produced a great finish.

The SN gave just as good a finish and was probably just as easy as the 50/50 to apply and buff off, but like Dave KG, I found its durability to be less than the 50/50.

I really liked the finish both the Vics waxes gave, especially when I had 3 coats on - it becomes shinier with the 3rd coat and really makes the paint come alive. However my own experience of it is that it was quite hard work to buff off and I normally went round with the QD in hand to assist. Given the time constraints my wife applies, the 50/50 gave me a much quicker finish that was virtually as good. It also allowed me to apply another layer in next to no time.

I found the Collectors lasted a bit longer than the Concours and to my eyes I couldn't tell the difference between them, even when I did a half and half on the bonnet a few times.

For looks with 3 layers, I think the Vics just takes it but for me as a regular wax the 50/50 just made life so much easier.

I now have Z2 on the car topped off with some FK 1000P for complete winter protection.

I am happy to let anyone try the waxes I have if they are close by.


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## parish (Jun 29, 2006)

organgrinder said:


> I really liked the finish both the Vics waxes gave, especially when I had 3 coats on - it becomes shinier with the 3rd coat and really makes the paint come alive. However my own experience of it is that it was quite hard work to buff off and I normally went round with the QD in hand to assist.


I found the same - especially if hand applied as it tends to be a thicker coat. My solution is to use two MFs, one to remove the bulk of the product, the second to finish it off. Works a treat :thumb:


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## organgrinder (Jan 20, 2008)

Parish Said:


> My solution is to use two MFs, one to remove the bulk of the product, the second to finish it off. Works a treat


I did the same but I still had the stubborn bits to remove with QD. I still reckon I could do the car in half the time with SN or 50/50 but the best finish IMHO goes to the Vics (just)


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## caledonia (Sep 13, 2008)

Organgrinder I might take you up on that offer once the better weather comes in.
At the moment. I have. 
All the dodo hard and soft
SN v2
Rubbish boys both additions
Dw wax Hard and soft.
50/50 V2
Auto Balm
Zym0l Carbon.
AG HD wax.
Valentines Concours Carnauba.
VP Liquid wax.
Kp1000
And a Hush Hush wax still Being in tested.
Dam to many sealants and liquid waxes to mention.

But can detail them if interested

Gordon.


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## parish (Jun 29, 2006)

organgrinder said:


> Parish Said:
> 
> I did the same but I still had the stubborn bits to remove with QD. I still reckon I could do the car in half the time with SN or 50/50 but the best finish IMHO goes to the Vics (just)


Sounds like you may have been leaving it on too long. The instructions say to buff before it dries *completely* although, IME, I would say before it dries at all. If you let it dry then yes, it is hard to remove (QD needed as you say). As a guide, I do the roof and bonnet in 4 sections, apply then buff straight off. Seems to work best :thumb:


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## Epoch (Jul 30, 2006)

caledonia said:


> Organgrinder I might take you up on that offer once the better weather comes in.
> At the moment. I have.
> All the dodo hard and soft
> SN v2
> ...


Ssseeessshh you're as bad as me, well almost


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## caledonia (Sep 13, 2008)

Epoch said:


> Ssseeessshh you're as bad as me, well almost


Got to keep people on the edge of there seats.:lol:

But my lips are sealed. So is the dam tub cant get the lid off it now. :lol:


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## Epoch (Jul 30, 2006)

caledonia said:


> Got to keep people on the edge of there seats.:lol:
> 
> But my lips are sealed. So is the dam tub cant get the lid off it now. :lol:


Is it an Autobrite wax? :lol::lol::lol:


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## caledonia (Sep 13, 2008)

Epoch said:


> Is it an Autobrite wax? :lol::lol::lol:


No but I think they made the tub.

I guess you have the same problems the threads on the Tub does not match the lid on my Valentines.
Sorry for complaining Mark but might need abit of sorting out.


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## Usjdmtuner (Mar 28, 2008)

it is a must have premium wax.. i use it alot and it has a good smell and shine and lasting protection


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## The Doctor (Sep 11, 2007)

Vic concours is a very good wax. It gives a really deep glossy finish and as stated good durabilty. I find 3 coats gives the best finish,anything more and the difference is hard to see. I wouldnt say its the wettest looking wax but very vibrant and glossy making reds look redder and blacks look blacker if you know what i mean. I use BOS now most of the time but every now and then ill go back to the Vics and it always impresses me. Its not the easiest product to use and i find applying it by hand is really hard compared to others and you need lots of heat between your palms and plenty pressure to move it around the panel. I now apply it by a applicator and its a lot easier.


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## organgrinder (Jan 20, 2008)

Caledonia Said:


> Organgrinder I might take you up on that offer once the better weather comes in.


Gordon you're welcome (as long as the wife doesn't know - she thinks I am already having an affair with the car and if I introduce a strange man to the equation, her brain will go in to overload)

John


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## Ross (Apr 25, 2007)

I will give it a go


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## MidlandsCarCare (Feb 18, 2006)

It's one of the first waxes I tried when I became active on here earlier this year, and one of the best!!

Looks wise, three coats, you're laughing! Durability isn't the greatest, but the QD helps with that.

The Shampoo is very good too, but pricey per ml.


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## Ross (Apr 25, 2007)

RussZS said:


> It's one of the first waxes I tried when I became active on here earlier this year, and one of the best!!
> 
> Looks wise, three coats, you're laughing! Durability isn't the greatest, but the QD helps with that.
> 
> The Shampoo is very good too, but pricey per ml.


I was thinking of the kit from Tim it has the shampoo wax pre wax cleaner and there QD in it


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## MidlandsCarCare (Feb 18, 2006)

RosswithaOCD said:


> I was thinking of the kit from Tim it has the shampoo wax pre wax cleaner and there QD in it


Yeah, I'd give that a try tbh - good saving on buying individually

The Lite Cleanse is a very nice cleaner... and you like your shampoos  :thumb:


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## Ross (Apr 25, 2007)

Oh yes iam the "Shampoo Man" lol


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## Dave KG (Feb 23, 2006)

Epoch said:


> Yep no problem Dave.
> 
> The V2 SN (2.00 & 2.01) builds on the subtle glossy "nuance" and IMHO adds a slight reflective brightness that adds a little more to the finish.
> 
> ...


Cheers.

I do understand what you mean about a car staying cleaner for longer and if anything for me this was one of Zaino's biggest advantages of waxes... if only I could find it more fun, but (and I suspect I'm very much like you here) I enjoy applying a layer of wax and a product that takes the need for me to do that away is not as much fun.

The little extra brightness is a good thing, especially on brighter colours - I can argue that I reckon 476S adds a little brightness and gloss to silvers and greys which makes it suit these... whether its just my eyes or not, who knows and it certainly not a huge effect, but I do understand what you mean.


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## Mixman (Dec 18, 2007)

In answer to the original question. I love this wax!!

I waste a lot by applying it by hand but it's really really enjoyable for me doing it this way and leaves a brilliant finish on my red Zafira!!!


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## Frankenstein (Apr 27, 2007)

This result using Victoria Wax - Concours Wax


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## caledonia (Sep 13, 2008)

organgrinder said:


> Caledonia Said:
> 
> Gordon you're welcome (as long as the wife doesn't know - she thinks I am already having an affair with the car and if I introduce a strange man to the equation, her brain will go in to overload)
> 
> John


Its already funny. Sound like your are married to my wife.
Or is thIs your way of breaking it to me. :lol:

Look forward to it are you going to the meet in Fife?

Gordon.


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## James_R (Jun 28, 2007)

Nice wax - good value - I like it, cant go wrong for £20.










Welll worth having on your shelf. Great on the red Arosa. I also waxed my dark blue Clio172 with this and it was still beading like mad after 12 months!!! Not that I used to go very far in it.....or get it very dirty


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## organgrinder (Jan 20, 2008)

I'm afraid January is the busiest month of the year for me work wise and we normally work the weekends as well, so no. I never arrange anything for January. The good thing is that once it's over, Spring is at least on the horizon.

I hope to go to one of Dave KG's DA days if he does any in February, so that I can get up to speed on my Kestrel before trying it out on the car for the first time.

I haven't been to any of the Scottish meets yet, but I have met Graham from Custom Detailers who did my car last Spring and I have talked to Dave from CG many times (as well as giving him lots of my cash). It all gets delivered to work though, so the wife never gets to find out!


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## caledonia (Sep 13, 2008)

organgrinder said:


> I hope to go to one of Dave KG's DA days if he does any in February,
> 
> I haven't been to any of the Scottish meets yet, but I have met Graham from Custom Detailers who did my car last Spring !


I have it on good authority the the Feb one is a goes.:thumb:

Ask for meeting Graham your lucky its just the car he done.

I am off now hes bigger than me.
Don't tell him what I said. :lol:

Might see you there in Feb.:thumb:

Thats 2 you have Dave.


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## ahaydock (Jan 4, 2007)

I really like Vic Concours and it will give more expensive waxes a good run for their money. I find 3x layers is best and offers good durability and I will always use this - certainly one of my faves.

I also really like the Vics QD. Here is my car with some Vic Concours:










Added over some CG EZ Creme and it looks great :thumb:


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## kos (Jun 19, 2008)

i have some in my collection, and its used on just one of my cars. it would take some thing really special and sensible price to convert me away form it


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## virtual (Apr 7, 2008)

It looks great! 

On a customers car:


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## Norman (Sep 5, 2006)

Been using it for 18months now, and it is great on our red and black cars.


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## m4xmw (Mar 22, 2006)

I buy a product and if I like, tend to stick with it.
Megs #16 was one of them, used it for yonks...

Just thought I`d give the Vics Concourse a try and love applying it by hand.Smells great and adds a nice warmth.Repells water really well, just make sure not to let it dry and make sure its properly buffed off.So far its been used on two VAG red cars and really does look superb.
.. I reckon that will be the only 2 waxes I`ll use for some time.

I like to use it it over GC ez creme glaze or megs #7.

Got my other half a RAV 4(1998 Dark green), so will use it on that in the new year.

Mark


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## Sandro (Mar 16, 2008)

after reading thread it got me in the mood for some Vics.

i was out washing my car yesterday and noticed the sheeting of my Collinite not looking so great, so thought id give it a wee top up, then when i saw Vics in the cupboard, decided to go for that. Gret wax to apply and take off! car looks all lovely and clean again!

though i did have to leave it for ages before buffing off because of the lack of heat, waxed the whole car before the first panels were ready to come off!


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## MrSimba (Mar 18, 2007)

I love Vic's Concourse!

It makes such an impression that parked next to another black VX the owner thought mine was a different paint code as it was so much deeper in colour!


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## flyfs6 (Nov 13, 2006)

Thats a superb picture. Have heard nothing but great things about Vics concours, seriously considered buying myself but the collection has couple of different waxes already.


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## caledonia (Sep 13, 2008)

flyfs6 said:


> Thats a superb picture. Have heard nothing but great things about Vics concours, seriously considered buying myself but the collection has couple of different waxes already.


You can never have enough waxes :lol:
Get your wallet out
Gordon.


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## Bence (Dec 21, 2006)

Guys, don't forget that Victoria Waxes have a relatively short setting time. Concours needs only 2-3 minutes of setting, Collectors a bit longer. Leave Concours on the panel significantly longer than the recommended time and you may need a belt sander to remove it. Yes, it can practically weld itself to the surface, but you can always help with a QD or introducing more wax (hence the same solvents) to the already applied, dried layer. 

So it is not necessarily *worse* in terms of removal characteristics, you just have to understand the very nature of these products. Layer thicknesses also play a part, so experiment a little bit to get a feel for their "operating window".


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## Sandro (Mar 16, 2008)

thats not really true Bence, ive found it depends on the weather. In summer i'd agree with you on that but when the weather gets colder its takes a considerable length of time to set. i had to leave it 15 minutes the other day before it was anywhere near ready to come off.


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## Bence (Dec 21, 2006)

Yes, temperatures and humidity always play a role, that's quite obvious. That's why I wrote about an operating window.

With Concours there are a few factors that may have an influence on the performance of the product. One is the actual hardness of the wax. Concours is supposed to be a hard wax with the consistency similar to 1000P or 476, as it contains a very high percentage of carnauba. However, when the wax can not harden enough in the cooling process, the resulting product will be softer. I've heard references about it quite often. When it stays softer, you can use it normally, as it won't affect product performance but the wax will be friendlier and easier to remove even with longer setting times. Completion of one batch of Concours takes about 4.5 hours, but of course sometimes a longer, or better ventilated cooling process is beneficial to let the wax harden out completely. If you have a remarkably soft Victoria wax, you can try to make it harder by removing its lid, and leave the wax on a warm windowsill (or similar) overnight.


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## Sandro (Mar 16, 2008)

i think everyone on here's Vics Concours is soft, certianly not as hard as Collinite


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## Bence (Dec 21, 2006)

And here everyone saw at least 2 UFOs daily, but certainly not as big as a Imperial Star Destroyer.

David Wyllie of Victoria Wax invested heavily in new equipment to ensure cooling consistency, but softness can occur nevertheless.


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## hartzsky (Dec 23, 2007)

I had a minor issue with my Vics Red (could have been nothing) and David had a new jar to me in 3 days. Customer service is excellent.


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## Bence (Dec 21, 2006)

Oh yes, most definitely. David is a true gentleman and it's an honour to do business with him.


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## Sandro (Mar 16, 2008)

Bence said:


> And here everyone saw at least 2 UFOs daily, but certainly not as big as a Imperial Star Destroyer.
> 
> David Wyllie of Victoria Wax invested heavily in new equipment to ensure cooling consistency, but softness can occur nevertheless.


no need to be a scrotum 

i can tell you like Vics Concours, but its not the last word in LSP is it?


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## Ross (Apr 25, 2007)

I still havent got any yet getting on too good with FK 1000P


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## vauxhall (Aug 26, 2008)

Great thread this:thumb: I think I will add a pot of Vics to our list for 09:thumb:


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## Ross (Apr 25, 2007)

vauxhall said:


> Great thread this:thumb: I think I will add a pot of Vics to our list for 09:thumb:


Dont think you will go wrong I might aswell get one too


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## alex groves (Jan 12, 2008)

i have just started using this wax, been using jetseal109 for the last year on my red astra vxr. what are peoples opinions on how to apply this LSP?? do you apply it to the panel and the buff stright off OR leave it for a while untill it passes the finger swipe test  i was having a play with it late last night and found that it did not set after 20min or so (prob down to it beening cold out side) so i buffed most of it off but left a patch on the spoiler meaning to return after a hour of so, but dint return till morning and it was a right pain to remove!!!


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## Ross (Apr 25, 2007)

Finger swipe test should be fine


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## alex groves (Jan 12, 2008)

but i have read other times where people apply and buff stright off. is it ok to use the wax like this??


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## Sandro (Mar 16, 2008)

if you wipe it off straight away, its just going to smear and be a pain to remove anyway. Plus i dont think it will have bonded properly to the paint work, so reduces the length of protection. I appled Vics the other day and it took ages for the wax to become ready to remove, but you just have to wait.

in summer you will be apply and removing right away, almost. you just have to be patient in winter


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## alex groves (Jan 12, 2008)

Sandro said:


> if you wipe it off straight away, its just going to smear and be a pain to remove anyway. Plus i dont think it will have bonded properly to the paint work, so reduces the length of protection. I appled Vics the other day and it took ages for the wax to become ready to remove, but you just have to wait.
> 
> in summer you will be apply and removing right away, almost. you just have to be patient in winter


thanks, so your saying wait till it passes the swipe test but dont leave it long enough so it fully sets? do you, your self apply it to the whole of the car mate at once this time of year?? i use to only do a panel at a time but with the wax setting time in the winter that would take ages lol.


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## Sandro (Mar 16, 2008)

this time i did do the whole car before buffing off. I applied it to a few panels then went back to the first one and checked (swipe test), and kept checking every few minutes until it was ready to come off.


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## Bence (Dec 21, 2006)

Sandro said:


> no need to be a scrotum
> 
> i can tell you like Vics Concours, but its not the last word in LSP is it?


Why not? Otherwise I didn't have balls...

Yes, I like Victoria waxes (it doesn't need any special talent to discover that), but if you think I stated they are the last word word, please indicate where. And honestly, I'm not interested in "general consensus" or other common generalization, I'm just stating facts about the product itself and its manufacturing.

I could tell you the exact carnauba content of Concours before and after cooking and the increase of its overall wax content since the inception of its original formula - except it is against VW's policy. They described the carnauba content at the beginning, but accurate information became basically meaningless in an age of ridiculous wax percentage calculation methods by "oZer companieZ".

Yes, application in different temperatures usually results in different removal characteristics; but we are experiencing this with all LSPs. Other than that pure wax formulas don't have to bond to the surface in the way synthetics do. Carnauba/synthetic blends need setting/bonding as the man made components crosslink onto the substrate. 
So apply the Victoria waxes as thinly as possible and don't let it dry. You have to monitor the exact timeframe. 
When you remove the wax, sometimes you'll encounter a drier, more solidified residue layer. Overly soft MF towels are unable to break this layer, so you can use a stiffer MF with different weave or switch to a soft cotton towel.


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## akimel (Oct 25, 2008)

Regarding application of Vics Concours, is application by bare hand really superior to application by, say, foam applicator? Given the need to apply a "thin" layer, might not the foam applicator be the way to go?


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## Bence (Dec 21, 2006)

Bare hand wax application is more of a style, an option, not a must - although you can not compare it to anything as it gives unique sensations.

However if you have sensitive skin, or just prefer an applicator, you can go with that. Although Vics have cosmetic grade ingredients, it can happen that someone's skin is more delicate. Don't forget, that our skin is far more absorbent than we'd think - so use chemicals with the appropriate care. 

Back to the question, an applicator gives a thinner, more homogeneous layer of wax due to its pore structure, but some say a bare hand application has a slight advantage in appearance. The warmth of the hands helps to spread a thinner layer and starts the setting process quicker. I apply my Vics with an applicator, by bare hand and with my DA on a 100ppi finessing pad on speed 3-5. Everything is controlled by your mood, the outside conditions, and/or personal preferences. Use appropriate toweling to remove the wax and always monitor the applied wax layer because the carrier solvent evaporates quicker in windy, warm, low humidity conditions. And you don't want to let Concours dry completely onto a surface...  Royal PITA.


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## joe_0_1 (Apr 7, 2007)

Guys, what's the best way to apply Conc's? - hand or applicator?

Also, curing times for three coats?

Thanks waiting


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## ahaydock (Jan 4, 2007)

Applicator without a doubt IMVHO, much easier to get a thin layer.

Allow 1hr min between each coat :thumb:


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## O frade (Mar 27, 2008)

Hello!

I've bought recently to myself Vics councours.

I'm having some problems with buffing. 

I've read the instrutions it say's 2 minutes for setting...but it found it very hard do remove....

aply in shade + thin layer + 2 minutes of setting = QD to buff...

I've tryied with 2 Mf..and no good... 

I just love the final look in my Ford Focus Panther Balck...but i'm having a bad relationship with the buffing.... GC 5050 is far better in buffing chapter

Any tip for buffing guy's?


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## Bence (Dec 21, 2006)

The 2 min setting time is not set in stone. It's a variable, depending on temperature, humidity, etc. You should always perform a swipe test to see if the haze can be removed.


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## Ross (Apr 25, 2007)

I have ordered some today and I cant wait to try it out.


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## Jim W (Feb 3, 2007)

It's good stuff - nice to work with I find (albeit a bit oily..)


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