# 2009 Time for a major change!



## reparebrise

2009 is time for a change, time to move forward, time to change our habits.

In our shops we wash 60% of car waterless, and 35% with ONR, the other 5% we send through a high qualithy tunnel wash with proper water reclaim equipment(yes a tunnel wash opperated by someone who knows what they are doing to adjust and maintain the machinery, and does not skimp on water and soap will never dammage a car) prior to detailing them.

My personal vehicle(2007 Mustang) has overr 70k on the odometer, gets driven on dirt roads, through raging snow storms, and in every condition Canadian roads can throw at it. The car has never been washed with anything other than water less, has never been polished, and to find any swirls or marring you need one heck of a light.

Detailing over the next few years will live a revolution of sorts, with increasing water conservation, run off control, and consumer pressure , existing water smart methods will gain in popularity, and new products and techniques will change the way we detail for the better. For the professional, using also make cents(Pounds) because they are not only eco friendly, but alsomuch less labor intesnsive.

For those of you who are nay sayers(and I know you are out there) you can do a simple test to see what is happening to your paint. go to the hardware store and buy a piece of black plexiglass. Remove the covering on one face. put the piece outside on a dirt surface, and wet it down, allow ambient dust to get it dirty for a week or so(note any scratching when you remove the plastic wrap on it first). Next sepperate the panel in 3 sections. On one section wash it with a water less product of your choice. On the second section wash 1/2 of your car with ONR, then using the wash media that has done 1/2 of a car, wash the next section, and dry(we have found the towelpros waffle weave MF to be the best and safest drying media to date). On the last section wash 1/2 your car with the methods you normaly use, and again using the media that has washed 1/2 of your car wash your plexi panel. In repeated testing the bucket and soap(actually rinse, foam pre-soak, rinse, mitt, rinse, and dry) method has consistantly induced the most scratching. Both ONR and waterless are about equal, and far superiority over the traditional methods. Since you wont believe your eyes, take the panel remove the protective wrap from the other side and repeat the test. For mobile detailers the economy of time that watersmart brings is even greater, no need to deploy and pick up your wash mat, you stay complaint to all regulations.

Since Henry Ford started making cars the methods we have used to clean cars have not evolved other than equipment changes, in Mr. Fords times water, soap and a bucket were used to wash a car(in some cases kerosene was used as a water less wash as well) and 100+ years later most still do the same thing.

In our shops I have proven many times over that watersmart washing(ONR and waterless) are by far and away safer, faster, and of course much better for our environment. For 2009 it would be nice to see more detailers take the challenge and at least try to break the wastefull traditional wash techniques. Get rid of those wastefull ,and environmentaly dangerous foam guns, sell those pressure washers, plant a tree in your buckets, stop carrying heavy water tanks and give your sheep skin mitts a well deserved retirement . Watersmart is not for every situation For those who resist change, saying the old way is the best, do you still watch B&W TV, do you heat your leftovers in the oven instead of the Microwave, does your telephone have buttons or a dial, and do you get up to change the channel on the telly?l. We know that when you want you can follow progress(you have a computer) so please make 2009 the year you discover a new way to take care of your customers cars. Imagine no more wet hands, no soap running down into the sewer drain, your children being able to swim at the beach in 10 years, being able to hear the birds sing instead of the drone of you pressure washer, and your customers being happier then ever.

Enjoy


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## Dream Machines

I absolutely agree with you on every matter
Waterless or semi waterless is the way to go
We may use an all Aussie product but the results are the same. Marring from using our method is much much lighter over time that any other wash method

No matter what type of wet soap you use, it does slowly strip your sealants and take the slickness away. slickness is very important to me


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## Bigpikle

waterless wash will be something new, and probably horrifying, for 99.9% of us on here including me 

I've never used any such product, but do believe there is a quality solution out there, that if used properly, will give a safe wash in most situations. This year I'm going to overcome my fear and try some out


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## The Detail Doctor

I must admit, having seen "waterless wash" type products on QVC etc I find the idea horrific.

However, I'm interested to learn more about this process and how it compares to a "wet wash"


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## Bigpikle

The Detail Doctor said:


> I must admit, having seen "waterless wash" type products on QVC etc I find the idea horrific.
> 
> However, I'm interested to learn more about this process and how it compares to a "wet wash"


I think thats really the big issue... Our logical brain is saying "that cant possibly work" without us understanding that there _might_ just be a product out there that does have the technology to be safe.

Yvan makes a great point, as 20 years ago we would never have thought we'd all be sat here wirelessly communicating like this, with a Blackberry in our pockets and a tv thats only 3" thick etc. Why can we not believe that the technology exists to wash a car safely without foam, 2 buckets etc etc. Just doesnt make sense.

I work a lot in change leadership and one of my favourite quotes is from John Maynard Keynes:

*"The difficulty in change lies not so much in developing new ideas, but in escaping the old ones"​*


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## Auto Finesse

I disagree with what your saying about it being the safest way to wash a car (swirl free), waterless products are the worst offenders, they contain loads of fillers, so yer your car will look ok for a bit but when these "fall back" it wont look so pretty, you are dragging the dirt across the paint work with out removing any of the lose dirt first, also how do you clean wheel arches? wheels? inner rims? panel gaps? 

The pics you show of your cars paint work dont tell us alot about the condition, i would like to see that section under direct light, im not just comming in and trying to pull what your saying apart, iv had to use waterless wash products to clean cars down on display so had no choice but it caused plenty of marring, not a massive problem if as i was going to machine polish the car but if its regular cleaning it would look awful after a month or two of regular cleaning then cost hundreds to correct.

on a "eco" note all those towels you use up to clean the car, where do they go ? washing machine?


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## spitfire

The big problem for many is not in accepting that a touchless wash is possible but that it is not just a marketing ploy. For the majority to accept we need to see the results and it has to be proven in the public domain that it is cost effective. Once people believe this, change will occur.


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## Bigpikle

james b said:


> I disagree with what your saying about it being the safest way to wash a car (swirl free), waterless products are the worst offenders, *they contain loads of fillers*, so yer your car will look ok for a bit but when these "fall back" it wont look so pretty, you are dragging the dirt across the paint work with out removing any of the lose dirt first, also how do you clean wheel arches? wheels? inner rims? panel gaps?
> 
> on a "eco" note all those towels you use up to clean the car, where do they go ? washing machine?


James - *SOME* do, and I can think of some shown here that certainly has a mass of clay in them, but *SOME DO NOT*... Its like saying all polishes fill, just because there are a few that were found to have that effect  Obviously the difficulty is finding those which are marketing BS, and those which use innovative new technologies to solve the problem....and of course develop the right technique to use them effectively.

I have 1 new sample here that is water based and so thin its hard to imagine it can have fillers in it, with nothing settling out etc, and will be getting some of product Yvan uses as well to try out. I have a test planned, but that needs me to polish out some panels on my car, and right now thats not possible


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## Bigpikle

spitfire said:


> The big problem for many is not in acceptig that a touchless wash is possible but that it is not just a marketing ploy. For the majority to accept we need to see the results and it has to be proven in the public domain that it is cost effective. Once people believe this, change will occur.


Dougie

as above, I have a few people that know a bit about washing a car safely who are lining up to help in testing some of these products. I just need to get the product, get some better weather so I can prep my car and make it happen.

I dont know if they will work as claimed or be a total disaster, but I have heard enough from people I respect to think it *might just be possible* in many situations...and trust me when I say I am a VERY hard person to convince on 'wonder products' after 20+ years in sales


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## Auto Finesse

Still not sold, sorry i have and still get alot of "new products" sent to me all the time and every time with the waterless washes it leaves me thinking the same thing, BIN!, i would be happy to be proven wrong, i hate getting wet and rushing around in the warmer months trying to wash a car before it drys out but i can only belive what iv seen, and experienced my self and thats that no matter what, there is no better way to wash a car than with a pre foam, jet wash rinse two bucket wash with a LM mit and dried off with a deep pile MF towel.


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## drive 'n' shine

I'd love to see those Mustang panels under some halogens 

Waterless 'might' be ok in dry summer months, but there is no way your going to properly wash a car covered in mud and road salt waterless and not damage the paintwork - however I am always happy to be corrected and proved wrong


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## Schnorbitz

What we need is a decent long-term, objective test along the lines of the 'Biggest ever...' threads on waxes and sealants to settle this. No, I'm not volunteering! 

I would definitely be interested in the outcome as the idea of reducing water use and making the process simpler appeals. I do wonder how well waterless washing works in the colder, wetter countries though? Might be perfect for drier places. I think we should certainly investigate first.


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## Bigpikle

Guys - I agree and we need some proper testing.

Once the Audi has the last 18 months of light marks taken out, I'm going to do a year long ONR test on it, as thats the only wash product I am using now. Will have Jon and others do some inspections to test for wash marring at meets etc. That will hopefully be useful. Not sure the best way to test waterless stuff, but the plexiglass test above should be easy to do, and I have a friend that owns a plastics company and should be able to get me some 

I just tried a waterless product on the MG in the garage - a citrus smelling water based product. Hadnt washed the car before putting it away at the end of the summer last year, and through gritted teeth hit a few panels. Checked before and after with the lights and saw no issues, on LIGHT dirt only. I really cant see it could possibly fill as it was almost clear, and plan to put a little in a glass and see if anything settles out like some petroleum based clearly do. First time ever with such a product, as ONR has been as far as I have dared go, but that works amazingly well and makes me more confident to try more 

I plan to get some of the product Yvan is talking about and will happily send you some to try when it comes. I am yet to be convinced as I havent use anything properly, but do believe there might well be a solution out there... Just think, WHAT IF there was a product that worked as claimed  That would be very interesting


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## Dave KG

james b said:


> I disagree with what your saying about it being the safest way to wash a car (swirl free), waterless products are the worst offenders, they contain loads of fillers, so yer your car will look ok for a bit but when these "fall back" it wont look so pretty, you are dragging the dirt across the paint work with out removing any of the lose dirt first, also how do you clean wheel arches? wheels? inner rims? panel gaps?
> 
> The pics you show of your cars paint work dont tell us alot about the condition, i would like to see that section under direct light, im not just comming in and trying to pull what your saying apart, iv had to use waterless wash products to clean cars down on display so had no choice but it caused plenty of marring, not a massive problem if as i was going to machine polish the car but if its regular cleaning it would look awful after a month or two of regular cleaning then cost hundreds to correct.
> 
> on a "eco" note all those towels you use up to clean the car, where do they go ? washing machine?


I agree with James re: waterless wash - of the ones I have seen used, they look not to mark because they are loaded with fillers to mask the damage they cause. Only once have I seen a demonstration where this didn't seem to be the case and that was done by Epoch on this very forum.

I'm all for change - when it is necessary and when the change _is for the better_. However, to me, waterless wash is a retrograde step. Perhaos more environmentally friendly. But paint friendly, I think not.

However, keeping my mind open, for the cars that are regularly washed with a waterless washing system, can you wipe the panels down with IPA fo remove any filling and use a high powered light (lets face it, sunlight is fairly high powered) directed at the paint just so we can see its condition... as if its swirl free under an IPA wipe in bright light, then the OP is certainly on to something here.

Going green is great, but it cannot come at the cost of quality in results and having seen first hand the damage done by waterless wash (and corrected the damage for a customer after a valet company performed a waterless wash on their car) I simply cannot see it added to my detailing system until a lot more research is done into it.


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## reparebrise

Gentleman

Sorry that I am slow to reply, slight time difference to deal with.

You are corect in you assertion that many waterless products contain fillers, as wel;l amny do not contain surfactants, so combine those 2 situations and you have a product that hides it sins, but not for long. The best test is to wipe down the surface with a paint thinner post wash to make sure there is no marring. These sub standard products have given this infant industry an undesreved prejudice, something that good products can overcome

For the lighting in the picture, that pic was taken in our shop, and the shop lighting highlights scratches, we combine true color flourecents, cool white flourecents, metal hylide and halogen, the picture was taken with all 4. The next time I wash the car(right now a usesless propsition as the roads are covered in sluch and it's -15c outside) I will post it here with direct xenon lighting.

I was also horrified when I started using these products, especialy when the faults came to light, that is the reason I spent 18 months, and a good amount of money to develope the product we now use. These products can work, but are expensive to produce, and unfortunatly many chemical companies look at profit over perforamnce, in my case I needed this produt to work, and cost was a secondary consideration. Over time and with higher purchasing quantities I have been able to get the product to the point where it's lass than a dollar to wash a car.

A waterless wash is not for all situations, but is effective for a lot more than we can imagine. The most important ingrediaent in the success of a waterless wash is the same as any other wash method, the user. When used with care it will not scratch the paint. Just like many of you use foam, multiple buckets, specialised wash media, specialised drying media, to make sure your cars are safe, using the same attention with a waterless wash will produce superior results.

With the aid of Damon we are working to get some samples over to the UK, these will not be free, but will be at my cost. I encourage you to try not only my product , but everyone you can get your hands on, and you will find a product that will fill your needs.


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## drive 'n' shine

reparebrise said:


> For the lighting in the picture, that pic was taken in our shop, and the shop lighting highlights scratches, we combine true color flourecents, cool white flourecents, metal hylide and halogen, the picture was taken with all 4.


None of them are directly on the panels though


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## tonz

They may need to consider the waterless wash in OZ , due to the long dry periods they get . 

Water , we are hardly short of the stuff !


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## swiftshine

Excellent post Reparbrise.
As you said, a lot of us can't conceive that a waterless wash could work, but there have been a lot of things happen in the last few years that none of us could have conceived.

Right now, I don't believe it. But I am going to try it with a fully open mind, and give it the best chance to change my mind. If it doesn't, well, I've lost less than trying a new wax you don't like. And if it does, I will have a new tool, and maybe even a better one:thumb:


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## Auto Finesse

reparebrise said:


> The best test is to wipe down the surface with a paint thinner post wash to make sure there is no marring.
> 
> For the lighting in the picture, that pic was taken in our shop, and the shop lighting highlights scratches, we combine true color flourecents, cool white flourecents, metal hylide and halogen, the picture was taken with all 4. The next time I wash the car(right now a usesless propsition as the roads are covered in sluch and it's -15c outside) I will post it here with direct xenon lighting.
> .


two problems, 1 dont give advise for people to use thinners on there paint, yes if you know a bit about vehicle finishing you can wipe a panel with thiners and be ok, but if you dont know whats what this could prove to be a nasty mistake

2 your lights are not directly on that panel,

This is what we mean by direct


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## rob750

Totally agree with you James well said ! I thought using thinners on a bodypanel had died a death.

Rob


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## WHIZZER

I have used a waterless wash product - now whilst it might be something i would use if my car was pretty clean i.e light dust - Its not something that i would consider if my car was caked in mud or very dirty 

What i used even being very careful inflicted some swirling albeit minor ...


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## L200 Steve

I'd be more than happy to see someone trusted, like Epoch, take a product like this and test it properly.

Theory dictates waterless washes should work, if done properly.

These products (like sealants such as Diamondbrite) always getting harmed though either through internet forum hearsay, or by the applicators of the product being unskilled valetors.

Give the product to someone keen to move the scene forward, rather than to someone with vested interest in selling product, and lets see the result.

Epoch - you can use the Hilux as testbed if you want fella, it'd be nice to see this particular myth 'busted' once and for all.


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## Epoch

I is all ears 

The previous ones I have used have caused no problems that I've seen, the cars have never been too bad and I am extra diligent, like all detailing processes.

Lucky? maybe but i never underestimate the problems of doing it wrong

When it appears here, I'm happy to try it out, after all the idea of a waterless wash may enable cleaning the car in the work car park at lunchtime.


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## Mirror Finish Details

I sometimes use my steamer on my van, just steam the area and wipe off. Now I am not worried about swirls on this but I can fully clean it with just over 2L of water. Graet on brake dust as well.

I am not a hippy sort of bloke, but doing my bit for the environment. But using PH firendly shampoos must be the way forward and most of mine drains in the flower beads and the flowers don't seem to mind.


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## Dream Machines

Yes many of the dry wash products contain fillers, pumice and a little polish and they are designed for the average motorist to just use that one product so that the filling effect is always there

The mistake people make when dry washing is to use microfibre towels or other towels
Instead, myself and my friend Joseph use top quality synthetic chamois, five litres or more of water in a bucket to clean the chamois and an Aussie product that is made from rainforest plant extracts and extracts from fruits

It is an incredible lubricant, doesn't fill or remove any sealants or waxes and self dries
Our process, which I have filmed and will be uploading ASAP is to use the folded chamois and spray the whole panel or a small area at a time (half a front guard, 1/2 the hood wit the product and do a one directional, no pressure pass over the area

The chamois is re folded to a clean spot and after every panel, it is cleaned in the bucket or buckets (sometimes we use two)
Any bad areas are blotted with the chamois. 

The reason we use a chamois is simple. when wet or very damp, it glides over the surface whereas dry or damp towels drag and are grabby plus you gotta throw em out cause they are ruined afterwards

My sodium vapour light and sun testing proved to me that this is the best way to wash
There is no need for towel drying and I don't have to remove all my rubber seals and dry he channel underneath as that area is never touched

Door and boot jambs dont need to be dried either and slickness loss from using the style magic product is virtually zero. (I love my slick paint)


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## Holden_C04

It's strange to still hear concerns about rinseless washing. On Autopia, Optimum No Rinse is often used as a full *replacement* for conventional washes by guys like Scottwax and myself. He uses it out of necessity due to water restrictions. I use it out of convenience. It takes less time to perform than a conventional wash, uses less water, is just as safe as a conventional wash, and can be used as a clay lubricant, quick detailer, and can be used as an additive to condition the water for a conventional wash.

It really doesn't matter to me whether DW uses rinseless washes or not, but it would seem foolish to ignore it.


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## Dream Machines

yeah definately. the technology is here so use it
steer clear of petrochemical based full dry wash products and any products that contain abrasives.

use chamois instead of microfibre to do the actual cleaning
and remember that pressure is the enemy. one directional passes and no pressure = bugger all marring and easier cleaning


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## Bigpikle

L200 Steve said:


> I'd be more than happy to see someone trusted, like Epoch, take a product like this and test it properly.
> 
> Theory dictates waterless washes should work, if done properly.
> 
> These products (like sealants such as Diamondbrite) always getting harmed though either through internet forum hearsay, or by the applicators of the product being unskilled valetors.
> 
> Give the product to someone keen to move the scene forward, rather than to someone with vested interest in selling product, and lets see the result.
> 
> Epoch - you can use the Hilux as testbed if you want fella, it'd be nice to see this particular myth 'busted' once and for all.


Good idea Steve, and what I was hoping to do 

I hope to have enough to send some to several people, and have several other volunteers already, so a test like this should be excellent and very possible :thumb:

I already know how well ONR works but these waterless products are totally new to me so look forward to some serious investigations  I just secured myself some plexiglass so know I just need to get it dirty :lol:


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## Finerdetails

I very interestinf debate. and some rather novel and forward ideas. The question is, for me, with the current economic climate would my customer pay the extra for the environmentally friendly aternatives?

And if we are going to be this focussed on the environment and protecting it, what else do we need to reduce? Motor racing? Travel by planes? Ban all cars with an engine over 2 litres cc? just prompting ideas.

Could I ask for the two pics shown to be taken again with halogen lamps/lighting correctly placed as I have shown many times, a pci from 'the right angle' means nothing?


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## Finerdetails

Epoch said:


> I is all ears
> 
> The previous ones I have used have caused no problems that I've seen, the cars have never been too bad and I am extra diligent, like all detailing processes.
> 
> Lucky? maybe but i never underestimate the problems of doing it wrong
> 
> When it appears here, I'm happy to try it out, after all the idea of a waterless wash may enable cleaning the car in the work car park at lunchtime.


I have used these myself, mainly when I had to prep on the stand at the caravan show. Now I dont know what the conditiopn of the paint was like prior to me using, but they were brand spanking new, and even after the waterless, the swirls were very very minor. In order to achieve this, I did use about four times as many MF clothes as I would normally, so the washing and the machine at home had to do more work, so more water, and electric to clean up the messed equipment.


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## Auto Finesse

No one has answered my 2 questions, 

1 how do you clean wheel arches?
2 how do you clean inner rims ? 

With waterless wash ???


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## Deano

Iain and james have mentioned it already but the "green" element of this seems to be a false economy as washing 4 times the amount of MFs will use all that water and electric anyway. not to mention the added electricity you'd have to use when correcting the swirls you've put in. its a bit like all these electric cars, all they emit is fluffy bunnies and rainbows but every one seems to neglect to mention you have to burn 6 tonnes of coal to charge the thing. but i'm open minded and have others have mentioned already, i'd like to see some direct light on panels prepd with waterless wash.


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## Rich @ PB

A few thoughts from me. We stocked ONR 2 years ago for around 6 months, and we tested it a lot during this period. At the six month point, neither me or Clark could wash a car with it without inducing marring, even after trying out various methods advocated by the chaps on Autopia. So, either we had the technique wrong, or it remains impossible to use such a product and not marr the finish. Wet washing, we can go 12-18 months on our contract cars and see zero marring. I'd be happy to take instruction, but seeing as we are not exactly novices, I'm struggling to see how we could have been any more careful...

Moving on, many of our customers still struggle to wet wash with all of the right gear (mitts, two buckets, soft drying towels, etc) and not cause any marring - only when people see us washing a car in the flesh do they realise just how gentle we are with paint when wet washing it. I have nightmares about waterless wash products, in as much that I can see many customers causing severe damage with them, through not being gentle enough (giving the benefit of the doubt here that safe waterless washing is possible). It was these same nightmares that made me remove ONR from our store; I didn't want to risk the fallout of many tens of people getting it wrong and blaming a product we were happy to supply. I've even modified our maintenance guide to disuade people from attempting waterless washing as a result.

Like others above, I'm game to try new products, and if a new generation of products have been developed that do allow safe waterless in 90% of cases become available, then once proven, I'd happily stock them. BUT only after extensive testing first, and preferably by a decent cross section of members with varying degrees of experience and knowledge.


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## reparebrise

panama said:


> Iain and james have mentioned it already but the "green" element of this seems to be a false economy as washing 4 times the amount of MFs will use all that water and electric anyway. not to mention the added electricity you'd have to use when correcting the swirls you've put in.


A tad reactionary Sir . We wash 160 MF towels per load in our washing machine, , our washing machine takes 40l of water per load. When using ONR we use only 1 Waffle weave drying towel, the same as when a car gets wet washed the wash mit does not get washed.

Unfortunatly such statements are not founded in fact, but in fear of change. One of the USA's premier detailers(José Fernandez of www.superiorshine.com ) has switched 95% of his washes to waterless, and has remarked that his customers have noticed an improvement, and he is averaging $12 per hour more net income due to the advantage of speed. Before taking the jump he meticulously tested many products for extended periods before doing a customers car. His clients are happy, he is more profitable, and he no longer gets wet.


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## reparebrise

james b said:


> No one has answered my 2 questions,
> 
> 1 how do you clean wheel arches?
> 2 how do you clean inner rims ?
> 
> With waterless wash ???


Both great questions.

1 Wheel wells are wiped clean with the MF towel that was used to clean the exterior of the car. If they have caked on dirt it is pre-rinsed with our steamer(same as rocker panels when needed) If using ONR, a toilet brush does a great job. Compaired to just spraying high pressure water at the wheel arch, both these methods actualy get it cleaner, and for those who do brush or wipe them down it gives you equal results.

2 Inner rims are cleaned by simply wiping them down with the wash media, once again just like a wet wash you need to agitate the dirt to get it off(pressure alone does not do it) and wipe it dry, so no additional effort.

It must be kept in mind that rinseless and waterless washing is not for every situation. In my experiancve most customers who get there car cleaned by a professional on a regular basis do not get there cars overly dirty(when was the last time you saw a M5 playing in the field?) so these are viable options for those clients. There are times when the PW is the best course of action, but again not neccesarily for the whole vehicle.


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## richjohnhughes

Can i ask - what is wrong with using water and a bucket? ?


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## reparebrise

Finerdetails said:


> I very interestinf debate. and some rather novel and forward ideas. The question is, for me, with the current economic climate would my customer pay the extra for the environmentally friendly aternatives?
> 
> Could I ask for the two pics shown to be taken again with halogen lamps/lighting correctly placed as I have shown many times, a pci from 'the right angle' means nothing?


There is no for your customer to pay extra, going to watersmart alternatives actualy reduces your costs and labour, increasing your profit per service. For the professional who respects th law by using a waste water capture device, the time it takes to use such equipment is more than it takes to clean a car with watersmart technologies.

Once the outside temps here reach a point that I can clean the car(currently we have light snow, and -20C, so cleaning the car in any way is a waste of time and resources). That said I will post the pics in a direct angle, with a xenon spot on them with pleasure.


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## reparebrise

richjohnhughes said:


> Can i ask - what is wrong with using water and a bucket? ?


There is nothing wrong with any wash technique, I am just pointing out that there are other alternatives that will not only help protect our childrens environment, but also save time and resources.

There are as many ways to clean a car as there are cars, no one hold the ultimate answer. Many situations call for the detailer to have different solutions to solve the problem of dirt on the car. What is important is recognising that there are alternatives, and chosing the one that best suits the need.


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## richjohnhughes

i can see what you are saying, but the only reason i can see to use this method would be if you dont have access to a water supply. 

if you do, then you already have the ideal way to wash a car


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## caledonia

I think what reparebrise is trying to explain it. There are alternatives to washing. Which can cut down on water usage and also save run off, going into the drainage network.

People will have to decide which alternative works for them.

Gordon.


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## Finerdetails

reparebrise said:


> When using ONR we use only 1 Waffle weave drying towel, the same as when a car gets wet washed the wash mit does not get washed.


But my wash mitts do get washed, and there is no way I could wipe clean one of the Uk cars with one MF cloth and not have to wash it. I am however, open to being proven wrong. :thumb:


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## Finerdetails

reparebrise said:


> Both great questions.
> 
> 1 Wheel wells are wiped clean with the MF towel that was used to clean the exterior of the car. If they have caked on dirt it is pre-rinsed with our steamer(same as rocker panels when needed) If using ONR, a toilet brush does a great job. Compaired to just spraying high pressure water at the wheel arch, both these methods actualy get it cleaner, and for those who do brush or wipe them down it gives you equal results.
> 
> 2 Inner rims are cleaned by simply wiping them down with the wash media, once again just like a wet wash you need to agitate the dirt to get it off(pressure alone does not do it) and wipe it dry, so no additional effort.
> 
> It must be kept in mind that rinseless and waterless washing is not for every situation. In my experiancve most customers who get there car cleaned by a professional on a regular basis do not get there cars overly dirty(when was the last time you saw a M5 playing in the field?) so these are viable options for those clients. There are times when the PW is the best course of action, but again not neccesarily for the whole vehicle.


so this product is gentle enough to use on the paintwork, and not remove the wax protection? But strong enough to use on the alloys and get the brake dust out? Liking the sound of that


----------



## Dave KG

It is clear that this product requires serious testing from a wide cross section of the membership with varying techniques and abilities, as Rich above has suggested... And by tested, this means months of testing on many individual cars as the sole washing method alone and then these cars gone over with a fine tooth comb to examine for marring after a serious IPA wipedown.

My concerns about it I stand by for the time being, as highlighted above. However as others have suggested, I am happy to be proven wrong by thorough and proven testing, and if this products is as good as being able to clean marring free and as above, be gentle enough to not harm LSP while being strong enough to shift stubborn brake dust, then it certainly could be product of the year...

Volunteers anywhere to have this product tried on their car for a few months as the sole washing method? Personally, I am not keen to put my Volvo up for it, my wash technique works well and I wont let anything thats not proven and could risk marring its finish near my road car.


----------



## Paul-T

I'd try it on my wife's Audi, I'm intrigued. While the biggest rather sceptical part of me thinks that this thread is reading like a trailer for a new blockbuster in the cinema (coming soon, to a car near you), I think genuine alternatives are both good and to be encouraged. 

The car I could offer is an 08 plate A3, Aruba Blue (a mid blue metallic), currently flawless and does approx 2000-2500 miles a month, mainly motorway with the countrylanes where we live to deal with too. 

I suspect this is just Snake Oil, but would be happy to be proved wrong.


----------



## Dave KG

Shine On said:


> I'd try it on my wife's Audi, I'm intrigued. While the biggest rather sceptical part of me thinks that this thread is reading like a trailer for a new blockbuster in the cinema (coming soon, to a car near you), I think genuine alternatives are both good and to be encouraged.
> 
> The car I could offer is an 08 plate A3, Aruba Blue (a mid blue metallic), currently flawless and does approx 2000-2500 miles a month, mainly motorway with the countrylanes where we live to deal with too.
> 
> I suspect this is just Snake Oil, but would be happy to be proved wrong.


Sounds like the ideal car! Would be keen to see you test this out on that A3


----------



## Neil_S

WX51 TXR said:


> A few thoughts from me. We stocked ONR 2 years ago for around 6 months, and we tested it a lot during this period. At the six month point, neither me or Clark could wash a car with it without inducing marring, even after trying out various methods advocated by the chaps on Autopia. So, either we had the technique wrong, or it remains impossible to use such a product and not marr the finish. Wet washing, we can go 12-18 months on our contract cars and see zero marring. I'd be happy to take instruction, but seeing as we are not exactly novices, I'm struggling to see how we could have been any more careful...


Pretty much my findings too Rich.


----------



## reparebrise

Finerdetails said:


> But my wash mitts do get washed, and there is no way I could wipe clean one of the Uk cars with one MF cloth and not have to wash it. I am however, open to being proven wrong. :thumb:


Sorry it may not have translated well(english is a second language, so all this is traslated as I go). The wash mitt that we use (Lake Country Ulti-Mitt ) self cleans in the solution(if really bad we rinse it).









For the drying towel, we use one waffle weave MF towel per car(24X40 inches) when using ONR or a wet wash.

For the waterless we use a regular 16X16 mf towel folded in 6 for dirt removal, and one to buff the polymer portection. If a car is realy dirty or large we use 2 dirt removal towels, but the buffing towel does not get dirty, it can be used for multiple cars, or as we do the buffing towel from car 1 becomes the dirt removal towel for car 2, and so on...


----------



## reparebrise

Shine On said:


> I suspect this is just Snake Oil, but would be happy to be proved wrong.


None of the products I tested have contained Snake oil in there ingredients list.


----------



## Dave KG

WX51 TXR said:


> A few thoughts from me. We stocked ONR 2 years ago for around 6 months, and we tested it a lot during this period. At the six month point, neither me or Clark could wash a car with it without inducing marring, even after trying out various methods advocated by the chaps on Autopia. So, either we had the technique wrong, or it remains impossible to use such a product and not marr the finish. Wet washing, we can go 12-18 months on our contract cars and see zero marring. I'd be happy to take instruction, but seeing as we are not exactly novices, I'm struggling to see how we could have been any more careful...
> 
> Moving on, many of our customers still struggle to wet wash with all of the right gear (mitts, two buckets, soft drying towels, etc) and not cause any marring - only when people see us washing a car in the flesh do they realise just how gentle we are with paint when wet washing it. I have nightmares about waterless wash products, in as much that I can see many customers causing severe damage with them, through not being gentle enough (giving the benefit of the doubt here that safe waterless washing is possible). It was these same nightmares that made me remove ONR from our store; I didn't want to risk the fallout of many tens of people getting it wrong and blaming a product we were happy to supply. I've even modified our maintenance guide to disuade people from attempting waterless washing as a result.
> 
> Like others above, I'm game to try new products, and if a new generation of products have been developed that do allow safe waterless in 90% of cases become available, then once proven, I'd happily stock them. BUT only after extensive testing first, and preferably by a decent cross section of members with varying degrees of experience and knowledge.


As ever from Rich, a very insightful post.


----------



## reparebrise

Finerdetails said:


> so this product is gentle enough to use on the paintwork, and not remove the wax protection? But strong enough to use on the alloys and get the brake dust out? Liking the sound of that


The better Waterless wash products contain polymers that when wet protect the paint from marring, and when dry act as your favorite spray wax. The surfactants contained in teh top products act to effectivly clean brake residue with ease. Once you have tried a top shefl product you will not only like the sound of it, you will also like the feel of it.


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## swiftshine

reparebrise said:


> Once you have tried a *top shelf* product you will not only like the sound of it, you will also like the feel of it.


Do these products come with nudie ladies on them?


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## reparebrise

swiftshine said:


> Do these products come with nudie ladies on them?


So is that what top shelf means in the UK? For us it's the cream of the crop. I know of a company in Vegas that is planning to start car wash with topless valeters.


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## caledonia

reparebrise said:


> So is that what top shelf means in the UK? For us it's the cream of the crop. I know of a company in Vegas that is planning to start car wash with topless valeters.


Now that would be fun but can see it working over here.

Too dam cold. :wall:


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## reparebrise

We have a problem with weather here as well(pic of a local trafic camera last evening). But I can see there being a certain demand, but in that context I see a need for water and suds.


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## Bigpikle

wow - things are heating up in here....

NOBODY is trying to force anyone to do anything.... The law (described in PPG13) already clearly says what can and cant be done about water entering drains when washing cars professionally. No need to argue about that.

This thread started by one person voicing a point of view that in 2009 there are other alternatives available, and maybe people should look around for new ideas and options in the way they wash vehicles, thats all. Repairbrise described _his_ experiences and viewpoint and everyone seems keen to discredit it 

For those seeing marketing here, the product Repairbrise uses is his own, available only to his personal customers in Canada, and not in the UK, and unless I have missed some posts somewhere, he has never suggested anywhere that anyone should buy any. I have a few bottles sat here that I have recently got from existing UK companies that personally I'd like to try, as they are clearly miles away from the rubbish that I have seen tried on here in the past - those clay and wax packed, often petroleum based products that people have found will swirl your paint. I will be buying a small quantity of Repairbrise's own product as well to mess around with, and will happily pass some on to a few others to try if they wish as well, as I have mentioned in a few posts. Thats something I want to do, as I do think there _might_ be other options available, and the only way I'll know for sure is having a look.

I have to say I am very sad that there is so much negative response to even thinking about something different, especially considering how much massive change we have all seen in our own lifetimes


----------



## caledonia

I would volunteer to mop up and spillages. That way nothing will go down the drains. 
But I better let it get back on topic.
Thanks for your knowledge and understanding.

I am following these posting closely, with an open mind. :thumb:

Gordon.


----------



## Auto Finesse

reparebrise said:


> The better Waterless wash products contain polymers that when wet protect the paint from marring, and when dry act as your favorite spray wax. The surfactants contained in teh top products act to effectivly clean brake residue with ease. Once you have tried a top shefl product you will not only like the sound of it, you will also like the feel of it.


I just dont see how it can have polymers and not fill to some extent ?? polymer sealants are the best swirl fillers iv ever found  I also doubt that you could dry clean wheel arches as well as a wet wash (same goes for wheels) im open to new products and i do some times have to use waterless wash (if im preping a show car or one in a dealers show room) but no matter how care full i am (and these are not covered in [email protected] cars there pretty clean to start with) i cant avoid slight marring


----------



## Bigpikle

james b said:


> I just dont see how it can have polymers and not fill to some extent ?? polymer sealants are the best swirl fillers iv ever found  I also doubt that you could dry clean wheel arches as well as a wet wash (same goes for wheels) im open to new products and i do some times have to use waterless wash (if im preping a show car or one in a dealers show room) but no matter how care full i am (and these are not covered in [email protected] cars there pretty clean to start with) i cant avoid slight marring


James - Polymer is a generic term with a wide meaning..

"A polymer is a large molecule (macromolecule) composed of repeating structural units typically connected by covalent chemical bonds. While polymer in popular usage suggests plastic, the term actually refers to a large class of natural and synthetic materials with a variety of properties and purposes"

I bet you could class Z-2, Z-8, pretty much all sealants and most waxes etc as containing polymers in some form. ONR shampoo has polymers in it, but its a shampoo and certainly doesnt fill anything....


----------



## Auto Finesse

Im not talking about ONR im talking about this dry wash "that acts like your favorite spray wax" and this residu you buff up at the end, this is a filler job by the sounds of it to me.

Your not going to talk me round to this unless you can actually prove it to work and be more cost and time effective than wet washing, no offence but iv done this for quite a time and i remember being sent waterless wash products back in 2000, iv tried alot of the ones avaliable now and there not great, not even on a lightly dirty car. i have looked in to this as i said a few times before due to some cars i detail not being in a location where water can be used.


----------



## Sav

Bigpikle said:


> wow - things are heating up in here....
> 
> NOBODY is trying to force anyone to do anything.... The law (described in PPG13) already clearly says what can and cant be done about water entering drains when washing cars professionally. No need to argue about that.


Waterless, don't say that I just got an outside tap fitted and a Hd lance, Nah not for me but I do my car once a week in summer and once every few in winter and enjoy the whole water stuff…….but professional car washes that reclaim water I like the sound off.. I compost for the garden grass clippings etc that helps the soil, I have two large water butts for watering, although last summer were not needed blooming summer being very wet….

I'm probably way off point but anyone trying to use less power, Chemicals or natural resources I'm right behind. :thumb:

Guys set up a car wash down the road from me, basically on a disused site by the roadside, but it got closed down. It was an old local Bus hire company site and you could fit say fifteen cars on it, looked like they were making a bomb as well always full of customers.Dont know why it was closed but suspect it was that they did not have any thought for constant soapy water going down the road every day…..into the drains…….God knows what chemicals were washing in them and probably into the local river. Plus I dont think it was an Official business I think they just set it up with a few containers were they kept a generator and there stuff….all I do know is the wee guy went from an old Polo valued around £200 to a nice new Golf R32……..in the six months they were there……….


----------



## Jakedoodles

I see the solution to this as being quite simple, and what I did when the chap from miracle wash sent me a bottle to try. 

Machine polish a panel so it's swirl free. 

Drive it round for a week or so. 

Wash with ONR/Miracle/Whatever

Wipe it down with IPA

Take a photo of the panel with a sun gun or Brikmann shone on it, as James illustrated, not at an angle, and not inside a building with an array of lights. Simple direct light shot taken straight on.


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## Jakedoodles

Oh, and by the way - the miracle wash had fillers in it. Shed loads. WHether they were termed fillers or not - they masked the swirls dragging the dirt across the panel caused.


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## Bigpikle

james b said:


> Im not talking about ONR im talking about this dry wash "that acts like your favorite spray wax" and this residu you buff up at the end, this is a filler job by the sounds of it to me.
> 
> Your not going to talk me round to this unless you can actually prove it to work and be more cost and time effective than wet washing, no offence but iv done this for quite a time and i remember being sent waterless wash products back in 2000, iv tried alot of the ones avaliable now and there not great, not even on a lightly dirty car. I have looked in to this as i said a few times before due to some cars i detail not being in a location where water can be used.


Agreed - wax residue that you buff, and likely fills at the same time. I have one here with no wax, its a very thin water liquid and nothing settling to the bottom like that stuff that Jon tried. It picked up an amazing amount of dirt onto a plush Eurow MF with just a very very light swipe across the wing of the MG. Was quite surprised what it pulled up and it certainly didnt marr anything. No idea what might happen if I used it on the Saab in its current state though 

You are different though James as you have tried loads and have experience. I'm willing to bet most havent on principle....

Oh, and ONR is NOTHING like Miracle or any other waterless product. Its a shampoo, and I used 4 gallons of water with it today. No marring, no filling from the clear water going on the paint. Dont confuse the 2 types of product


----------



## drive 'n' shine

Bigpikle said:


> You are different though James as you have tried loads and have experience. I'm willing to bet most havent on principle....


I've tried loads as well, when TW were threatening a drought order a couple of years ago I needed to find an alternative just in case, and never found any that could give (IMO) satifactory results


----------



## L200 Steve

Bigpikle said:


> Good idea Steve, and what I was hoping to do
> 
> I hope to have enough to send some to several people, and have several other volunteers already, so a test like this should be excellent and very possible :thumb:
> 
> I already know how well ONR works but these waterless products are totally new to me so look forward to some serious investigations  I just secured myself some plexiglass so know I just need to get it dirty :lol:


What if...

The waterless wash solution became part of a slightly larger product combination, to ensure maximum benefit to the user, and the safest possible results?

Instead of folk just bleating that waterless washes cause marring, why not look at using whatever LSP offers the best possible protection from said marring.

After talking to a couple of 'top' detailers recently over other subjects, the topic of 'what LSP' offers the best protection from wash marring. Seems a few customers are still marring their paint up between maintenance visits even though proper kit has been left along with correct instructions.

What if...

Instead of suggesting LSP's that leave a 'glossy nuance' we suggested the hardest shell possible as prep for the waterless washes?

This might be something to add to the testing of such products, and wouldn't be that hard to achieve now that we have at least 3 major suppliers of 'long life' sealants on board DW.

I'd be up for half n halfing my Hilux with a sealant then waterless washing the beast for a few months to see if there was any difference between side.

Just a thought:thumb:


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## Dave KG

While I accept this idea Steve as a good one, I also stress here the flip side of this coin - many folks, not just pros, can wash there cars marring free using a wet wash with no need for a special LSP on top.

Yes I appreciate these sealents offer resistance to wash induced marring, but for many of us its resistance to a problem we dont have with wet washing (and I say we here as in much of the collective forum membership)... By contrast many have experienced problems with waterless washes, and would thus _need_ special LSPs to use them.

I have an open mind here and would like to see thorough testing on these products, but I remain unconvinced by them until I see hard evidence of them being effective and safe.


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## Jakedoodles

reparebrise said:


> There is nothing wrong with any wash technique, I am just pointing out that there are other alternatives that will not only help protect our childrens environment.


Or you could stop driving a 5.0l car. :lol::lol::lol:


----------



## hibberd

These are all such facinating discussions, which I follow with great interest. All be it with little technical knowledge of the actual "chemistry" involved. There is the danger to us all, we dont know enough about the technical aspects of claims and counter claims to be able to make correctly based choices. Are there no chemists on the site that could explain what is happening in a simple language that we all can understand? Not being able to see something is not the same as it not being there.

My major concern is that the crud on the car does not just evapourate into thin air, it comes from some where and it ends up somewhere. If government legislates it always seems to be doing this on the ends up somewhere side of the equation, if they were to try to reduce the crap sources/causes firstly we would probably need less washing, if the paint companies developing the paint were legislated to be involved to make it better suited to the conditions it is exposed to and not just make it waterbased and make it less prone to damage. These steps inturn would then make our requirement to clean cars less onorous on the environment, winning potentially on two fronts.


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## Bigpikle

L200 Steve said:


> What if...
> 
> The waterless wash solution became part of a slightly larger product combination, to ensure maximum benefit to the user, and the safest possible results?
> 
> Instead of folk just bleating that waterless washes cause marring, why not look at using whatever LSP offers the best possible protection from said marring.
> 
> After talking to a couple of 'top' detailers recently over other subjects, the topic of 'what LSP' offers the best protection from wash marring. Seems a few customers are still marring their paint up between maintenance visits even though proper kit has been left along with correct instructions.
> 
> What if...
> 
> Instead of suggesting LSP's that leave a 'glossy nuance' we suggested the hardest shell possible as prep for the waterless washes?
> 
> This might be something to add to the testing of such products, and wouldn't be that hard to achieve now that we have at least 3 major suppliers of 'long life' sealants on board DW.
> 
> I'd be up for half n halfing my Hilux with a sealant then waterless washing the beast for a few months to see if there was any difference between side.
> 
> Just a thought:thumb:


thats an interesting idea - a holistic 'system approach'...

I had an interesting experience last week with the Audi. I was waiting to wash it last weekend and it had thick salt crusted on it in places on the lower panels. The weather stopped me, but all the heavy rain last week washed it almost completely off, so this week I was able to wash it much more safely. I think this was in part due to the FK1000 which seems superb at giving up dirt very very easily, and has got to have implications for the washing process as well 

The just launch 'Optimum Coating' which appears to be like the Gtechniq coating product, is also hard enough to apparently reduce the impact of marring. Its so new there is little information from independent sources but it all sounds interesting, especially as these products are supposed to have such long lasting benefits as well...


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## bidderman1969

whats the limitations to this aswell?










guessing, but this couldnt be done with a waterless wash?

also, whats wrong with bio-degradable snow foams? or are there any at the minute?

what is the safest foams? light bulbs are fast changing to energy saving ones, why cant this be the same for snowfoaming, then we'd be much happier in just changing products instead of techniques?


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## reparebrise

hibberd said:


> These are all such facinating discussions, which I follow with great interest. All be it with little technical knowledge of the actual "chemistry" involved. There is the danger to us all, we dont know enough about the technical aspects of claims and counter claims to be able to make correctly based choices. Are there no chemists on the site that could explain what is happening in a simple language that we all can understand? Not being able to see something is not the same as it not being there.


While I am not a chemist, I have had enough experiance with the products to explain how and why they work. I will be speaking of my product, as not all are created equal (if anyone would like a copy of the MSDS sheet please fell free to e-mail me, it will be my pleasere to pass it along)

To preface, just like any washing method the technician doing the work has the greatest control over the outcome, a poor product in teh hands of a good technician will do the jod, while a good product in the hands of a poor technician will yield poor results.

A waterless wash is done one panel at a time from start to finish.

The product gets sprayed lightly over the entire surface of the panel. On contact the surfactants in the product emulsify the dirt. In simpler terms the product envelopes the dirt, at once breaking it down, and surrounding it with a protective layer of product, keeping the dirt in suspension. The polymer also provides lubrication to protect the surface form the dirt.

The product contains polymers that are zwitterionic, meaning that they are both charge negative and positive  at the same time. This means that the product attracts and repels itself from the dirt and the surface. What this does is allow the polymer to attract itself to the dirt, attract itself to the paint, repel the dirt from the paint, and attract itself to the MF towel.

The third action is the attraction and absorbancy of the MF towel. Micro fibre towels have enormous surface area, and they attract the dirt, and pull the product and dirt away from the surface.

A thin film of polymer gets left behind on the car, this gets buffed to a high shine with a second towel.

The product we use contains no fillers(some unfortunatly do). The solution you apply to the car is 90% distiller water, and contains no fillers(an IPA wipe after cleaning will easily confirm this). The shine it leaves behind is equivelent to a spray instant detailer. One additonal benifit is that our friends tha zwitterions keep working after you apply the product, so the car repels dust.


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## reparebrise

Wonderdetail said:


> Or you could stop driving a 5.0l car. :lol::lol::lol:


I don't, largest engine I have is a 4.0l that returns 8l per 100km in consumption. The car I drive the most is a 2l.

But yes fuel consumprion is another large problem here in North Americe. If gas prices were anywhere closer to reality(currently 80 cents per liter) people would mind there usage much more. Here in Quebec we have a more European attitude(and also the highest fuel prices in North America), so small efficent cars are the norm. A trip to the US shows a completly different attitude. You have more chances of spotting a Hummer than you do a Toyota Yaris on Honda Fit in most US towns. In Quebec VW sells about 60% of all TDI's exported to NA. same with MB. If weather permitted I would love an Arial Atom equipped with a TDI drivetrain, ec nomical, frugal, and FUN.


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## jizzi06

reparebrise being from your neck of the woods I am very interested in how you think these products can be used on such salt soiled cars. I'd love to change tto waterless washing especially for winter due to the -20 temperatures we've been having lately and I keep soaking my garage. Maybe you should start a new thread and bring it through the step by step process along with before and after pictures of the paint.


----------



## Dave KG

reparebrise said:


> The product contains polymers that are zwitterionic, meaning that they are both charge negative and positive at the same time. This means that the product attracts and repels itself from the dirt and the surface. What this does is allow the polymer to attract itself to the dirt, attract itself to the paint, repel the dirt from the paint, and attract itself to the MF towel.


I'm not a chemist, but rather a physicist - however, it is my understanding that zwitterions are _overall_ neutral - yes they have both a positive and negative charge region (separate parts of the molecule, not that the molecule is both things at the same time) but they are overall neutral as electric fields obey the lays of superposition.

Typically in Physics, when there is a positive and negative charge, one can typically refer to this as an electric dipole set up. However, I am interested to know the typical separation distances of the charges and how they compare with typical sizes of dirt and silt... remember, if the separation distance is less than a typical silt particle (say), then the silt particle will ultimately see a net neutral charge. If its of order, or less than the difference then yes it will see different fields.

What is the net charge carried by a typical microfibre cloth - polarity? Is this will surely govern what part of the zwitterion is attracted to the cloth, and what is left to attract the dirt in some simple sense?

I am interested here - as above, I'm not a chemist but have a strong physical interpretation of what goes on through being a physicist (mag res), and would like to know more about how these zwitterions are working in this product.


----------



## Fat Audi 80

There is no way you can wash a DIRTY car WITHOUT water and WITHOUT marring it!

Last time I washed my daily driver which had a months worth of mud and salt on it, I used SIX buckets, and that was only dealing with the wheels and arches quickly.

If you do the wheels and arches properly that can be two or three buckets on it own. I like to see the water "RINSE" away the salt and mud rather than "PULL" the dirt off with a cloth, no matter how good the "waterlessproduct" is.

It may well have a place for car shows and light dusting etc though....

Just my 2p's worth.

Cheers,

Steve.


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## ryanuk

well said fat audi!


----------



## Katana

I'm interested in seeing some tests as well, as these products do hold a certain interest for me.

I have a condition that causes me joint and muscle pain when doing any physical labour, even nausea when exerted too much and i also have quite severe eczema, so using less water and getting less wet overall is better for me. Last time i washed my car using mitt/2bm/waffle towel took me an hour or so and i was in pain for days afterwards, lifting heavy buckets down stairs (first floor flat and no hose to rinse with), leaning over and rushing to get the car washed before the water dries out and then leaning over and bending to dry with a towel.

Being able to work one panel at a time would be less exerting and more beneficial for me, give me time to take breaks if i need to.
I could live with it causing minor marring as i'm not as fanatical as the pros on here about that sort of thing but i'd still like to see how much, if any, extra marring it causes versus the 2BM/Waffle towel dry method. As i don't do off road/country lane driving i'm not worried about washing off mud, mainly traffic film and random dirt for me.


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## reparebrise

Dave KG

Great posting on the ION's and there effects. Like I mentioned I am not a chemist, and am just relating the information given to me by my staff. From your posting, your questions show that your knowledge is far greater than mine will ever be on the subject.

What I can say is that it works very effectivly, and that we went through countless beta samples before arriving at what we have now.

The test samples had al sorts of isseus that we slowly modified, one aspect at a time to get to our goal. A product that is safe for the user, safe for the environment, safe for the paint, easy to use, and cost effective.


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## reparebrise

Steve (FA80)

A waterless or rinseless was is not for all situations(see Porche above), but it should have it's place in everyones kit.

Using water does not prevent marring(Most commercialcar washes use inordinate amounts of water, yet they still manage to scratch paint), it's the methods of work that prevent marring. If a person is able to wet wash a car without marring, they can certainily wash a car with water smart solutions just as effectivly, and safely.

Could you please list the products you have tried, in order to have formed such a strong opinion or the whole market segment, so that others can benift from your experinaces. I have tried many products that were not suited to the task, and some that were. On an enthusiasts forum in the US, products such as ONR are considered the best available tecnology for paint protection while washing, what did your testing conclude for ONR?


----------



## AndyC

Interesting thread as I'd not paid enough attention to the green side of my hobby. I usually rely on an industry aware mate of mine (food hygiene, janitorial and car care products) as his company is at the forefront of enviornmental concern issues vs cleaning all sorts of stuff. 

Interestingly, he tells me that a lot of the stuff I use which is imported from outside the EU comes nowhere near meeting current UK/EU standards.


----------



## reparebrise

jizzi06 said:


> reparebrise being from your neck of the woods I am very interested in how you think these products can be used on such salt soiled cars. I'd love to change tto waterless washing especially for winter due to the -20 temperatures we've been having lately and I keep soaking my garage. Maybe you should start a new thread and bring it through the step by step process along with before and after pictures of the paint.


In your situation, for a car with caked on winter detritous, a coin op wash may be your best first line of defense, meaning invest a few coins just to PW the dirt out of teh wheel wells, and off the lower part of the body(in teh wheel well we do not just get a bit of dirt, we get a thick layer of ice,salt, sand. slush built up)

From there you can drive home, and wash with ONR or Waterless product depending on teh results from the drive home.

Watersamrt products are not for every situation, but idyou consider the possibilitys, and mix and match techniques to the work at hand, it is possible to reduce you watse creation, while still driving a clean car.

I just purchased a video Camera, so I will endeavor to post a You Tube video once I figure the thing out.


----------



## Bigpikle

thats interesting Andy - kind of reinforces what Pete (Bilt Hamber) said about making sre you use EU produced stuff - shampoos and the like


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## AndyC

Especially when one also considers that the company he works for produce, bottle and label product for several well known names. He's opened my eyes to what's actually in many of the bottles on my shelves.

I'd not paid much attention to the likes of ONR as my own experience with it was less than convincing but the simple geography of my garage/garden/house would make a "damage free" waterless product both potentially envionmentally secure and a damned sight more convenient.

Look forward to reading more - remember to include pictures for my benefit :lol:


----------



## Bigpikle

AndyC said:


> Especially when one also considers that the company he works for produce, bottle and label product for several well known names. He's opened my eyes to what's actually in many of the bottles on my shelves.
> 
> I'd not paid much attention to the likes of ONR as my own experience with it was less than convincing but the simple geography of my garage/garden/house would make a "damage free" waterless product both potentially envionmentally secure and a damned sight more convenient.
> 
> Look forward to reading more - remember to include pictures for my benefit :lol:


:lol: how about video 

perfect for the 205 IMHO - the MG hasnt seen more than a mist of water >12 months and has zero marring, thanks to ONR


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## Clark @ PB

Feel free to call me ignorant but having seen the results of various waterless washing products (One being a completely wrecked Range Rover that Dave and Bryan detailed and posted on here) I know what products and procedures I'll be sticking to for the forseeable future


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## Dave KG

Clark said:


> Feel free to call me ignorant but having seen the results of various waterless washing products (One being a completely wrecked Range Rover that Dave and Bryan detailed and posted on here) I know what products and procedures I'll be sticking to for the forseeable future


You mean this one Clark?

http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=73984

It was a shocker up close  ... really did put me off the idea of waterless wash seeing this car, and others like it.


----------



## Bigpikle

Dave KG said:


> You mean this one Clark?
> 
> http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=73984
> 
> It was a shocker up close  ... really did put me off the idea of waterless wash seeing this car, and others like it.


I remember that Dave, and it was awful, but it might just have been a poor product combined with careless technique? My neighbour with his mitt and bucket does that much damage every week as well


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## Dave KG

Bigpikle said:


> I remember that Dave, and it was awful, but it might just have been a poor product combined with careless technique? My neighbour with his mitt and bucket does that much damage every week as well


Very true.

Although I see greater margins for error with a water wash if that makes sense... You can marr your car with a traditional was as well, but its easier not too...


----------



## Bigpikle

Dave KG said:


> Very true.
> 
> Although I see greater margins for error with a water wash if that makes sense... You can marr your car with a traditional was as well, but its easier not too...


agreed for sure - especially the ones that I have seen with all the 'stuff' that settles to the bottom and looks like my rinse bucket :lol:


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## AndyC

Bigpikle said:


> :lol: how about video
> 
> perfect for the 205 IMHO - the MG hasnt seen more than a mist of water >12 months and has zero marring, thanks to ONR


Yeah, yeah 

Seriously, it's the quantity of water used which got me reading this initially. I TBM'd the 205 last weekend for the first time in I don't know how long, preceeded by a foam/rinse. Usually it's foam only to reduce marring (followed by the now infamous hairdryer...)

It got me thinking about using recycled water for washing/PW use but I'm not sure that the PW would work as intended without pressure. If I can figure that part and use only enviornmentally friendly products then I'd be a happy chap.


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## Clark @ PB

Dave KG said:


> You mean this one Clark?
> 
> http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=73984
> 
> It was a shocker up close  ... really did put me off the idea of waterless wash seeing this car, and others like it.


That's the one.

Horrendous - no other word for it. The pics dont do it justice for just how much of a mess it was I'm afraid...


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## Dave KG

Clark said:


> That's the one.
> 
> Horrendous - no other word for it. The pics dont do it justice for just how much of a mess it was I'm afraid...


The trouble was that not only was there a lot of general swirling, it was clear pressure had been used too and sharper grit left a lot of much deeper RDS that required a lot of serious compounding to remove, and there were the odd ones that were too deep to safely take out... all from one bad wash, its quite scary.


----------



## Clark @ PB

Dave KG said:


> The trouble was that not only was there a lot of general swirling, it was clear pressure had been used too and sharper grit left a lot of much deeper RDS that required a lot of serious compounding to remove, and there were the odd ones that were too deep to safely take out... all from one bad wash, its quite scary.


Yup. I'm sure given a fairly clean car (i.e just a bit of dust) and someone who is extremely carefull with said products, you would get pretty good results.

However, the room for error is alot smaller than when given 2 buckets, a wash mitt and a decent shampoo and "pretty good" isnt good enough for alot of people, myself included.

I know I'd rather machine out some light wash marring as opposed to some deep scratches from the no rinse wash.

If it aint broke, dont fix it, and I'm perfectly happy with the current methods (as are all our customers) and it's more than possible to maintain a swirl free finish on a car for 12 months + providing you have the correct technique and products.


----------



## Bigpikle

AndyC said:


> Yeah, yeah
> 
> Seriously, it's the quantity of water used which got me reading this initially. I TBM'd the 205 last weekend for the first time in I don't know how long, preceeded by a foam/rinse. Usually it's foam only to reduce marring (followed by the now infamous hairdryer...)
> 
> It got me thinking about using recycled water for washing/PW use but I'm not sure that the PW would work as intended without pressure. If I can figure that part and use only enviornmentally friendly products then I'd be a happy chap.


PM sent...


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## 911fanatic

This is what stuff rolls into my shop looking like. When this truck left you could eat out of the fender wells. I'm not positive, but I'm quite sure the same results are not possible with ONR. What about a nasty set of BMW wheels? I'm sure products like ONR have their place, but I don't think they are meant to or are capable of producing results like soap, water and some APC can. All depends on the results you are trying to accomplish and are happy with I guess. Just my 2 cents. I would love to see a car after an ONR wash up close with a Sun Gun.


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## scott508

Having used ONR all winter, I will gladly throw my hat into the ring on this. 

Currently, I do not own a vehicle I don't drive in the winter. That being said, when using ONR, I take as much time as the job takes to make sure my work is perfect. I use this product because it helps me keep my vehicles looking good with acceptable draw backs. I rinse before using it, but do not do an after rinse. I like my method and plan to employ it until I find something better.

If I owned a vehicle that was constantly garaged, I would use ONR on it ONLY if it were previously cleaned using normal methods. It's a great way to clean up after polishing, or for removing time rather than grime. Some may disagree, and I congratulate your independent thought. 

ONR is no miracle, but it can be a great tool if used properly. It can also ruin your day if you fail to utilize proper methods. I have noticed that it has done as much damage on my vehicle as an MF waffle weave does when drying. Very minimal.

The only way to ensure a perfect job every time is to never touch the paint in the first place.


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## Dave KG

scott508 said:


> *The only way to ensure a perfect job every time is to never touch the paint in the first place*.


Which is why many of us have developped out own touchless wash routines - based typically on a foam and rinse procedure, and air dry... I cannot see a no-rinse or waterless wash product being able to match this water-based technique which is why I cannot accept it into my detailing procedures at this stage... simply, it is not proven enough to work on my own car, and the everyday cars I work on. Which brings up to the thorough testing requirements which have been said already and I reckon will be starting in earnest this year... times do change, but I am a great believer in change for the better in terms of performance, and if a product is a retrograde step in my eyes (which waterless washes currently are) then I wont be using them. Happy to be proven wrong however, which is why I am keen to see testing.


----------



## PJS

AndyC said:


> It got me thinking about using recycled water for washing/PW use but I'm not sure that the PW would work as intended without pressure. If I can figure that part and use only enviornmentally friendly products then I'd be a happy chap.


Consider changing to a better machine - Makita HW131, which I've been told will suck up water 1m deep no problem.


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## L200 Steve

Clark said:


> If it aint broke, dont fix it, and I'm perfectly happy with the current methods (as are all our customers) and it's more than possible to maintain a swirl free finish on a car for 12 months + providing you have the correct technique and products.


I thought that the whole point of detailing (after making your car looking bonny) was taking something that wasn't broke, but fixing it anyway to better suit us.

I can think of many many detailing processes / products etc that have become de - facto since some folk on here have 'fixed' them.

Waterless washing may not be for most, but then neither is wet sanding???


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## Holden_C04

I there is one thing to be said here and that is that I am glad North America is well ahead of Europe in respect of this technology. It's nice to be ahead of the curve.


----------



## PJS

Holden_C04 said:


> I there is one thing to be said here and that is that I am glad North America is well ahead of Europe in respect of this technology. It's nice to be ahead of the curve.




http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showpost.php?p=1302674&postcount=12

http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showpost.php?p=1304364&postcount=22

Perhaps the USA/Cananda need to be a bit more assertive with policy legislation and/or implementation?
I don't believe you're referring to water conservation.


----------



## Holden_C04

PJS said:


> http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showpost.php?p=1302674&postcount=12
> 
> http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showpost.php?p=1304364&postcount=22
> 
> Perhaps the USA/Cananda need to be a bit more assertive with policy legislation and/or implementation?
> I don't believe you're referring to water conservation.


You're right, I'm not referring to water conservation.

:tumbleweed:


----------



## Relaited

Hello everyone. New here. My name is Jim and I am a passionate Eco Detailer here in So California where drought is a real issue and controlling run off is a must to prevent escalating fines. Like Yvan, I am a member of the International Detailers Association, an organization that I advocate you join.

Well, as I compare this conversation to the ones that occur on primarily US Detailers, at over 100 posts it is more robust. We get many more views, looky lu’s, nowhere near this level of interaction, and nowhere near the professional and polite dialogue on the subject. Same or similar questions and comments … “Doesn’t it scratch”, “ I am a X year veteran, I need proof” “No one enforces the codes here, until they do, I will not pick up my contaminants and waste water” or “might work for you, but not where I live”. After Yvan and I make our case, we get the inevitable “Oh yea, what about this off road and muddy vehicle?”. For all those for whom this is a significant piece of your work, well good luck to you. Me, I set up shop in Malls outside the fancy Stores where the 2 year old $80,000 Mercedes owner comes in and dumps a bunch of money and does not mind me having the car for 2 hours while they shop!

I understand the questions, but I cannot understand why every professional does not have one or more of what I call Water $mart Car Washing. Here in the US, if you do not capture and reclaim your waste water and contaminants, I peg you as part of the dying Bucket & Hose Brigade. (“Prove to me that waste water kills fish” challenges a typical detailer “You drink it, or have your kids drink it” I say) I used to debate with the others, now I share with the likeminded folks, and they are a growing breed. And spend my time going to property owners of large office buildings, Airport valet, high Rise Residential, Country Clubs and Home Owners Associations.
I believe that this is the time to leverage the unique business value of a Water $mart model to deliver the customer benefit of convenience. I am rapidly expanding my footprint here in So California. As a Member of the US Green Building Council, we are working with properties to “green” their portfolio and requiring the 20 year old industry veteran with a bunch of money invested into the traditional model to either pry the pressure washer from the white knuckled hands or lose your business. I frustrated on one hand, but absolutely excited on the other that this stubborn industry has a major blind spot on this industry. 

As a Franchise system, we seek a new breed of detailer to enter the industry, so we can train them on this new method for the creation of jobs, in the automotive sector, that are Environment jobs that cannot be exported!

When I see the famed Paul Dalton’s video, I like the hand applied wax, literally, reminds me of the SHAM WOW Boardwalk pitch, I think it has great sizzle. And it appears that he has built a reputation and customer base as a result. Good for him. But when I watch his video and watch how he washes a car with complete and utter disregard for the environment, I break out into hives, and at the end of the day, think he is part of the industry problem, not part of the solution … and into the Bucket & Hose Brigade you go!

Just my opinions
-jim


----------



## Dave KG

Relaited said:


> Hello everyone. New here. My name is Jim and I am a passionate Eco Detailer here in So California where drought is a real issue and controlling run off is a must to prevent escalating fines. Like Yvan, I am a member of the International Detailers Association, an organization that I advocate you join.
> 
> Well, as I compare this conversation to the ones that occur on primarily US Detailers, at over 100 posts it is more robust. We get many more views, looky lu's, nowhere near this level of interaction, and nowhere near the professional and polite dialogue on the subject. Same or similar questions and comments … "Doesn't it scratch", " I am a X year veteran, I need proof" "No one enforces the codes here, until they do, I will not pick up my contaminants and waste water" or "might work for you, but not where I live". After Yvan and I make our case, we get the inevitable "Oh yea, what about this off road and muddy vehicle?". For all those for whom this is a significant piece of your work, well good luck to you. Me, I set up shop in Malls outside the fancy Stores where the 2 year old $80,000 Mercedes owner comes in and dumps a bunch of money and does not mind me having the car for 2 hours while they shop!
> 
> I understand the questions, but I cannot understand why every professional does not have one or more of what I call Water Car Washing. Here in the US, if you do not capture and reclaim your waste water and contaminants, I peg you as part of the dying Bucket & Hose Brigade. ("Prove to me that waste water kills fish" challenges a typical detailer "You drink it, or have your kids drink it" I say) I used to debate with the others, now I share with the likeminded folks, and they are a growing breed. And spend my time going to property owners of large office buildings, Airport valet, high Rise Residential, Country Clubs and Home Owners Associations.
> I believe that this is the time to leverage the unique business value of a Water model to deliver the customer benefit of convenience. I am rapidly expanding my footprint here in So California. As a Member of the US Green Building Council, we are working with properties to "green" their portfolio and requiring the 20 year old industry veteran with a bunch of money invested into the traditional model to either pry the pressure washer from the white knuckled hands or lose your business. I frustrated on one hand, but absolutely excited on the other that this stubborn industry has a major blind spot on this industry.
> 
> As a Franchise system, we seek a new breed of detailer to enter the industry, so we can train them on this new method for the creation of jobs, in the automotive sector, that are Environment jobs that cannot be exported!
> 
> When I see the famed Paul Dalton's video, I like the hand applied wax, literally, reminds me of the SHAM WOW Boardwalk pitch, I think it has great sizzle. And it appears that he has built a reputation and customer base as a result. Good for him. But when I watch his video and watch how he washes a car with complete and utter disregard for the environment, I break out into hives, and at the end of the day, think he is part of the industry problem, not part of the solution … and into the Bucket & Hose Brigade you go!
> 
> Just my opinions
> -jim


Your post addresses environemtal concern but stops short of addressing the questions asked throughout this thread from established professionals - what is the system, and how does it prevent from scratching the paintwork??

Perhaps in Southern California, a waterless model or a water smart model may wrok... now, put yourself in a Scottish winter. We have a combination of salt and silt on our roads, combined with mud from famers ploughing their fields and dragging the mud onto main roads - our cars end up literally filthy. Can a waterless wash guarantee a marring free finish (without the use of fillers), and if so, how? What is the science behind it? Viewing things physically (as I am a Physicist), I can easily understand why many waterless washes do marr, and am very keen to hear a scientifically sound argument from a product to the contrary which, I have to say, I am yet to hear.


----------



## drive 'n' shine

:lol: Americans preaching to us about being greener


----------



## uiuiuiui

i have to agree with with Dave KG
please tell us which products and processes you use for your "watersmart" washing solutions.


basically i think the smartest way to wash a car here (Central Europe) will include water BUT i believe recycling water and reusing it is the economical and ecological way to go.
this includes the use of products which can be removed from the water with the "on location" recyling measures.

modern automated washers with water recycling systems built in need about 5 litres of fresh water per car and the swirling induced is really minor (as long as the washer is maintained properly)
and think about touchless automated washers (karcher CHH 8000) with water recycling
to me that sounds pretty good.

sorry i'm german, we like solutions based on technology


----------



## Bigpikle

Relaited said:


> Hello everyone. New here. My name is Jim and I am a passionate Eco Detailer here in So California where drought is a real issue and controlling run off is a must to prevent escalating fines. Like Yvan, I am a member of the International Detailers Association, an organization that I advocate you join.
> 
> Well, as I compare this conversation to the ones that occur on primarily US Detailers, at over 100 posts it is more robust. We get many more views, looky lu's, nowhere near this level of interaction, and nowhere near the professional and polite dialogue on the subject. Same or similar questions and comments … "Doesn't it scratch", " I am a X year veteran, I need proof" "No one enforces the codes here, until they do, I will not pick up my contaminants and waste water" or "might work for you, but not where I live". After Yvan and I make our case, we get the inevitable "Oh yea, what about this off road and muddy vehicle?". For all those for whom this is a significant piece of your work, well good luck to you. Me, I set up shop in Malls outside the fancy Stores where the 2 year old $80,000 Mercedes owner comes in and dumps a bunch of money and does not mind me having the car for 2 hours while they shop!
> 
> I understand the questions, but I cannot understand why every professional does not have one or more of what I call Water Car Washing. Here in the US, if you do not capture and reclaim your waste water and contaminants, I peg you as part of the dying Bucket & Hose Brigade. ("Prove to me that waste water kills fish" challenges a typical detailer "You drink it, or have your kids drink it" I say) I used to debate with the others, now I share with the likeminded folks, and they are a growing breed. And spend my time going to property owners of large office buildings, Airport valet, high Rise Residential, Country Clubs and Home Owners Associations.
> I believe that this is the time to leverage the unique business value of a Water model to deliver the customer benefit of convenience. I am rapidly expanding my footprint here in So California. As a Member of the US Green Building Council, we are working with properties to "green" their portfolio and requiring the 20 year old industry veteran with a bunch of money invested into the traditional model to either pry the pressure washer from the white knuckled hands or lose your business. I frustrated on one hand, but absolutely excited on the other that this stubborn industry has a major blind spot on this industry.
> 
> As a Franchise system, we seek a new breed of detailer to enter the industry, so we can train them on this new method for the creation of jobs, in the automotive sector, that are Environment jobs that cannot be exported!
> 
> When I see the famed Paul Dalton's video, I like the hand applied wax, literally, reminds me of the SHAM WOW Boardwalk pitch, I think it has great sizzle. And it appears that he has built a reputation and customer base as a result. Good for him. But when I watch his video and watch how he washes a car with complete and utter disregard for the environment, I break out into hives, and at the end of the day, think he is part of the industry problem, not part of the solution … and into the Bucket & Hose Brigade you go!
> 
> Just my opinions
> -jim





drive 'n' shine said:


> :lol: Americans preaching to us about being greener


Bryan - I think you missed the point of much of Jim's post. While he is passionate about being greener, he's also passionate about being 'richer' by using this as a business opportunity.

Having made >20 trips to the US in the last few years, I also know that not every American drives a V8 gas guzzler and is horrendously polluting, in the same way that we Brits dont all eat cucumber sandwiches and doff our caps to the passing Lord and Lady


----------



## Bigpikle

....and Jon (Epoch) and I had a fun evening this evening experimenting with a selection of waterless and rinseless products we have accumulated on his lovely BMW....and no, its not scratched or marred to hell either :lol:

Only the equivalent of dipping a toe in the water, but it was an interesting (and slightly nerve wracking) experiment to start


----------



## caledonia

Nice to see the ball rolling Damon.
There has been to much talk now its time of some facts and hopefully some answers. One way or the other.
I know its just the start but look forward to the reviews.

Gordon.


----------



## Relaited

Waterless is misleading. For a commercial product, the best ship in concentrate, and you add spot free water. So any best of breed solutions are as waterless as Coca Cola is waterless.

Let’s see if I can explain this so even a physicist can understand it … just kidding and trying not to preach, just passion.

Water $mart is, as I define it, is making choices about the water you use to make every attempt to conserve water, using only enough to get the job done and no more. And, and this is not an option, to capture the contaminants. So if that is a requirement, then by necessity it requires less water be used. As a physicist, I hope we do not have to debate the fact that contaminants from our industry do pollute the environment. So if you are taking these farm trucks, and washing on the landscape, then that is OK, that acts as a natural filter. But as Paul Dalton washes on the hardscape, that leads to the conveyance to the storm drains, I believe that internationally that is not allowed, and brings our industry reputation down. IMHO

On a Waterless model, you need 3 key elements. 1) Proper dispenser for the product of choice. You must mist or atomize the solution onto the vehicle, not “spray”, that will get the car wet, without dripping and run off on the ground. As you apply the product, the best of breed has emulsifiers that break up the dirt, surfactants help, encapsulates the dirt, and lift it from the paint. They have lubricants that help the process. The last element is a Micro Fiber Towel. Soft and is designed to extract and hold the dirt, not like cotton that pushes dirt around. You fold the towel to create 8 to 12 clean sides. You fold and refold so you present a clean side to the vehicle. You wipe in a linear pattern, slow, no pressure, let the chemical and towel work for you. Focus on minimizing the “dragging of dirt” and opportunity for scratching, do not use fast, unstructured and unnecessary wipes that can cause scratching. I will let Yvan address the specifics if this does not work conceptually.

I grew up in Boston, was there last week. It is snowing at record levels. I did my parents car with Yvan’s product. Worked great with all the road salts, no mud. And the protective hydrophobic quality made the post removal of ice from the window really simple.

For the German friend, I live within 5 miles of the largest Mercedes Dealership in the world. I leave the off road vehicles to others, and focus on the luxury car capital of the world. I would not be in this industry if muddy vehicles were my customer base. But assuming it was, I would use more water, just be $mart and use only that which is necessary, and collect contaminants and waste water. Then, even if I only had one cream puff a week, I would break out the Waterless stuff, and wax while I wash. Easier & better in my opinion.

One thought is for all those saying “show me the Shine”, and as professionals, I bet that if someone where here sharing the passion for a new reasonably priced wax, I bet you would go out and get some and try some. Seeing is believing. No matter what I post, or say, or claim, or refute, the only way you will see the benefits is if you go out there, use it and see it with your own eyes. Just think getting out of the proverbial classroom and into real tests is a benefit here.


----------



## drive 'n' shine

Bigpikle said:


> Bryan - I think you missed the point of much of Jim's post. While he is passionate about being greener, he's also passionate about being 'richer' by using this as a business opportunity.
> 
> Having made >20 trips to the US in the last few years, I also know that not every American drives a V8 gas guzzler and is horrendously polluting, in the same way that we Brits dont all eat cucumber sandwiches and doff our caps to the passing Lord and Lady


No I didn't miss the point at all Damon, and I have been to the states myself 

Jim's business model is completely different to most of ours on here, it would appear he offers a similar service to those that can be found in a lot of shopping centre developments i.e. relying on a large volume of cars, also I feel his local state laws actually require him to use the products he does, and has nothing to do with making more money (IMO)

I have no objections to being greener, I even worked for a large paper recycling company for 8 years! But what I do object to is people inferring that their way is the only way and we should all follow suit.

I pay a fair amount of money to have my run off water pumped from the underground septic tank and transported to the local water treatment plant, and I will continue to use my 'dinosaur' methods of washing for 2 reasons.
1) I really can't see waterless/watersmart being quicker, I'm not saying they are slower either.

2) I am yet to be convinced that they offer a truly safe wash method - but I am happy to be proved wrong on both points, and if so I will happily concede defeat.

However it will take more than a couple of people playing about with a few products to convince me.


----------



## drive 'n' shine

Relaited said:


> But as Paul Dalton washes on the hardscape, that leads to the conveyance to the storm drains, I believe that internationally that is not allowed, and brings our industry reputation down. IMHO


In true BBC fashion I have to point out - other detailers are available :lol:

On a serious and maybe pedantic note, you are making assumptions based on a 5 minute TV clip  How do you know from that clip where the water runs off to, have you been to Lamborghini High Wycombe (clip location) and inspected the facilities?

I also wash my clients cars on, as you call it, the hardscape, but my run off water drains into an underground septic which I pay to have pumped and transported to the local water treatment plant



> I leave the off road vehicles to others, and focus on the luxury car capital of the world.


Try telling your average Range Rover owner that their car isn't a luxury car


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## sxid

If a method appears that is proved to leave no marring and is not costing the earth then I'd be more than happy to switch. However I'm completely happy with my washin methods with good old 2 bucket method and a lambs wall mitt. Whas wrong with using water? Sorry to sound ignorent but it's not running out and does get treated and reused. As far as I see it it's like some people drive prius cars and there's nothing wrong with that - for them. Howeer some choose to drive v8's. I refuse to be made feel guilty for washing car with a hose though


----------



## Relaited

Fair point, I just sent an email to Paul Dalton, sharing my comments, and asking him to clarify his position on Water $mart Washing and Eco Detailing. How does he feel about water conservation and capturing the contaminents and waste water?

To clarify, we do the outsourced Land Rover Details for the local Dealership … I just choose not to focus my business on those off road vehicles that actually go off road and get all muddy. I choose not to, and so do most / many traditional car washes. The Self Serves here all have big signs “No Muddy vehicles” … seems no one wants these vehicles accept the doubting detailer who wishes to challenge this model. So, let me be clear, an off roaded vehicle that is excessively muddy, I recommend an alternative method other than “waterless”. If that is your entire customer base, good luck, for me, I would be in another profession. If not, then for those none muddy vehicles, and road salt I say yes, I would use a Water $mart model.

Also, to clarify. If you have a fixed based shop, and have a clarifier that separates contaminants prior to entering the sewer, or pump the septic, or have the necessary and legal method to capture contaminants and waste water … or wash on the landscape which acts as a natural filter, I am AOK with that. I still think you should consider a waterless product, as it cleans, shines and protects all in one step. So fair comparisons on times etc must include some sort of spray wax to be comparable.

Using a hose is not the end of the world. In the above scenario, it is perfectly acceptable. I do suggest that you consider the Water $mart principles, and your “hose” have a shut off control, and that you emply techniques to minimize the amount of water used. Just came from a Water meeting yesterday, here in So California they predict a 21% increase in water next year, and 50% over the next 4 years. Again, the $ in $mart means making more money, and this is only one example

If you are mobile, and do not capture your contaminants and waste water, then I think you are part of the industry problem. Personally, at least here in the US, we need to partner with the big brother Car Wash industry. It is a challenge right now as they do not respect us. And I would like to eventually sit across the table from car manufacturers, with credibility, as we discuss best practices and hopefully even service interval recommendations. Anyone else ever wonder what our industry would be like if Mercedes recommended a fresh coat of wax every 3 months or 5,000 miles like they do to change the oil, or filter, etc.? That’s the primary issue I have with the bucket & hose brigade. 

This model, on a Mobile scenario, if you choose to consider the environment is a significant time saver. But the real money, for me, is that this model allows me to get into the Shopping mall, the High Rise Office, the High Density High End Residential, the Airport, and a Country Club. Now we are launching a Mobile Vehicle to allow me to hit homes, events, smaller properties that do not justify a permanent location. Soon, very soon, I will have consolidated a fragmented market by delivering the wash & detail amenity conveniently! I will have multiple points of access to a high end customer. I envision a day when my competition pulls up to a gated community and the guard says “Sorry, this High End Home Owners Association is exclusively serviced by my company!”. No way, no how could I ever do that with a bucket & hose

Lastly, the one thing I have learned is that this industry is full of “technicians”. Not a bad thing, just what I think is a fact. So there is no way, no how I can convince … seeing is believing. Don’t take my word for it, go out and try a couple, then come here and we can debate it.

Cheers,


----------



## drive 'n' shine

Relaited said:


> Lastly, the one thing I have learned is that this industry is full of "technicians". Not a bad thing, just what I think is a fact. So there is no way, no how I can convince … seeing is believing. Don't take my word for it, go out and try a couple, then come here and we can debate it.
> 
> Cheers,


As mentioned in a previous post, our water company threatened a total ban on all commercial water use a couple of summers ago, so I did try out several waterless/water smart products, and I couldn't find one that gave me satisfactory results, maybe it was me using them incorrectly, or maybe I have different level of standards.

And to be fair you are trying to apply your So Cal methodology to a different country, with different environmental issues and policies.

Call me cynical but I feel you and Yvan are just using forums to promote your products/business (you state you want franchises), with the 'green' issue being secondary to this, apologies if that seems rude, just saying it how I see it.

I would be interested to see just how 'green' these so called eco products really are, in terms of manufacture, packaging and transportation.


----------



## Relaited

I find the industry to be largely cynical … is what it is. I am not pushing an agenda, just trying to state what and why. Yes I am a Franchise, but if any one of you were to buy into even my Franchise, there would be absolutely no financial benefit to me … so what’s my agenda? Just passion of what I think is an awesome model

When I first came to some forums, I guess I did have hope that I could show some old dogs new tricks. I thought if you build a better mouse trap, and the world beats a path to your door. Instead, I found that “Don’t try to teach pigs to sing … frustrates you and annoys the pig”. No offense to pigs or detailers, just my opinion. If my meeting goes well today, in my area, I will not need any Franchise candidates, we will self fund the growth with a development Team. If not, I may need some select candidates to do what I cannot.

I have resisted sharing names of products, as I am new here, and not sure the rules. Can you share brands and products? Can I? If so, I have no problem sharing what I think are good bets.

Different geography as to why the model works… maybe, I just think others use this as an excuse. I do. Seems to work just fine in Canada for Yvan, and there is no one requiring him to do so. Why not use best available technology to exceed standards? With our new president, California will lead the way, at least in the US, and I hope California steals every other good idea already in practice in places where you all live and adopts them here. Perhaps in other countries, customers do not mind waiting. I think it is a big customer benefit for convenience. By using this model, anywhere in the world, you can introduce the amenity to locations traditionally unavailable to the bucket & hose. Doesn’t that make sense anywhere in the world? Show me one place where you can blast water, clean the muddy off road vehicles right outside a high end Department store? I don’t this that possibility exists?

Part of Water $mart and Eco Detailing is we constantly seek ways to improve. Are we there yet, no … process and journey not a destination thinking. Looks like very soon we will ship in 5 gallon containers. Maximum concentration levels to prevent shipping water thinking. I know that customers change and returnable bottles get recycled, part jest part truth, but I am trying to implement some improved recycling efforts. 

If you have any specific questions, or even friendly challenges … I am all ears.
-jim


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## Relaited

Drive N Shine,

Can you tell me a little about how your operation and how you handle waste water and contaminants? If you are mobile, do you use a wash mat and capture system? Does anyone?

How much water do you use per car/ Do you care? Does anyone care/

I see that you are an approved Detailer for a very reputable company. Personally, I think that is great. I wish more would get some level of training and certification stuff. I think that significantly elevates the industry.

Thanks,
-jim


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## ryanuk

drive 'n' shine said:


> Call me cynical but I feel you and Yvan are just using forums to promote your products/business (you state you want franchises), with the 'green' issue being secondary to this, apologies if that seems rude, just saying it how I see it.
> 
> hit the nail on the head there mate!
> 
> well said.....


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## Relaited

ryanuk,

mate, if you could be more specific, I would appreciate knowing how you think I benefit from this? Please be as specific as you can. otherwise it is an easy and baseless jab. I thought we were having an intelectual debate?
-jim


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## drive 'n' shine

Relaited said:


> Drive N Shine,
> 
> Can you tell me a little about how your operation and how you handle waste water and contaminants? If you are mobile, do you use a wash mat and capture system? Does anyone?
> 
> How much water do you use per car/ Do you care? Does anyone care/
> 
> I see that you are an approved Detailer for a very reputable company. Personally, I think that is great. I wish more would get some level of training and certification stuff. I think that significantly elevates the industry.
> 
> Thanks,
> -jim


All my washing is carried out on concrete with waste water draining into an underground septic tank, which is collected and taken to local water treatment plant.

My business model is completely different to yours.


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## Relaited

If you capture and reclaim, wouldn’t it make good economic sense to control the amount of water you use? How much water do you use? What is your thinking on the amount of water you use?

On your web site, I see pictures where you sow foam all over the car. Here's where I show my ignorance, but how does that work?
-jim


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## drive 'n' shine

Relaited said:


> If you capture and reclaim, wouldn't it make good economic sense to control the amount of water you use? How much water do you use? What is your thinking on the amount of water you use?


I pay the same amount whether i use 1 litre or 100,000 litres of water, so economically it wouldn't make any difference.

My thinking of the amount of water I use is, I need it, I pay both for supply and reclaimation of it. Will I change my use of it? I doubt it, maybe not the 'eco' answer you want, but I am complying with local environmental laws so don't see why I need to change - call me ignorant, dinosaur etc.



Relaited said:


> On your web site, I see pictures where you sow foam all over the car. Here's where I show my ignorance, but how does that work?
> -jim


The snow foam softens and eases removal of larger soiling, reducing the chances of any wash induced marring. A quick search on here will give you lots more information :thumb:


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## Dave KG

Very interesting reading in here - I have a few thoughts, which I will post later on when I am not in the lab and have more time to reply.

For now though...

D&S has answered the specifc question about how Snow Foam works, and it has been proven by many professional detailers to work and deliver good cleaning results and promote marring free washing. 

Can you show us, on for example a car you have on a maintenance contract, the condition of the paint before you enter into your $mart model (£conomic ) and present direct lighting shots on the paintwork after a few weeks (following an IPA wipedown to remove any fillers) so that we can see the condition the paint is left in? This would be in the field, experimental evidence if you would like to call it that and would definitely add value to the claims IMHO which is all I am currently reading - claims with no results. I'm reading a lot of assumptions that the "bucket and hose" brigade are destroying the environment - many of us here are aware of the implications and have seeked to ensure we are not polluting local rivers with out washing run off, now sure how mobile detailers achieve this though... however they are delivering marring free washing and can demonstrate this, I would like to see this demonstrated from waterless and water$mart models - I'm not as yet saying that they do marr, but I would like to see evidence that they dont. Certainly before I would contemplate introducing it as a washing technique to myself, or teaching others that its the correct way to go.


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## reparebrise

As prommised here are some direct facing pics of teh same place on the car as the ones posted in the OP. As you will see there is slight marring when using the Xenon light, but considering that the car has 70,000kms, has been washed a minimum of 150 times, has never been waxed, and has never had any form of polishing or paint correction the surface is in great shape. Under normal lighting conditions it is as good as new, and with the Xenon light marring. 

Before washing









After washing









With Xenon


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## drive 'n' shine

I'm sorry but to me they look more like scratches rather than marring!


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## bidderman1969

its not as bad as i thought it would be BUT, to me, there is damage there, and therein is the point, as it was stated that was NO damage caused by these waterless washes


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## caledonia

Thanks for the posting.
I have to agree with drive n shine. It does look like scratches.
But on the flip side taking the rest of your statement that you have never machined the car, and you carried out 150 washes. Now that is between 2 and 3 years worth of cleaning. I think it is rather good considering.

Normally people feel the need to machine polish there cars every year to reduce these marks. So what does that say about wash techniques, over here also.
Can you honestly say that you can wash your cars safely and not inflict this amount of damage.

Given what the OP has stated I think it is rather good, considering.
Gordon.


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## drive 'n' shine

caledonia said:


> Given what the OP has stated I think it is rather good, considering.
> Gordon.


Really?

I can safely wash a car with very minimal damage over a 12 month period, I certainly couldn't justify charging to correct that amount damage that I would have inflicted using that method!

And judging by the pics those RDS look fairly deep so there would limits to how many times you could effectively remove them, certainly doubt a once over with 85RD and a finishing pad would remove them, which is all I would be aiming to do on a 'properly' maintained car.

Sorry to be so negative, but as many other, I am yet to be convinced and the evidence provided so far is a long long way from doing that!


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## caledonia

I take you point. There are 4 RDS that would concern me. But it is very hard to say where they could not be removed safely. I would agree they would certainly not be removed with the polish and pad combo, you mentioned.

But my state meant was not directed at you personally. I am take what the OP has stated in that he has not used anything else on his car for 150 cleans. Now taking that into account you must admit yourself. It is rather good.

I have been looking at the previous picture. Pre clean but I cant make out if they have been inflicted this clean or if they where previously been there. I am guessing the OP will have to verify this.
i would be very surprised if anyone with soft black paint can do a years worth of washing with out leaving these marks. Never mind nearly 3 years worth.

But again this is still early days and I will follow this thread to see where it goes.


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## drive 'n' shine

caledonia said:


> i would be very surprised if anyone with soft black paint can do a years worth of washing with out leaving these marks.


Where does it state its soft paint?

My previous 3 cars have all been black, and I have managed it using tried and tested methods, and I'm not the most anal of people when it comes to my own cars as I just don't have the time to spends hours pampering them. Those marks (and using both bulbs on the brinkmann and a better camera would show even more IMO) look like they have been caused by grit to me.

I'm not trying to start an argument with you Gordon btw, but this guy has come on here telling everyone how safe this 'wonder' product is and it clearly isn't


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## drive 'n' shine

caledonia said:


> There are 4 RDS that would concern me.


On one small area of the paintwork, so how many others are there on the rest of the car?


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## caledonia

Bryan I know this, and I am not defending the OP either. I think there is some clarification needed by the OP, as to the RDS are are clearly shown in the picture. As to when they where inflicted.

I have take my statement about soft paint for the previous and first posting by the OP. Where he states that it is a Mustang. US car especially in black have horrible soft paint. As you know yourself. That is where I am basing my judgement on. I also know this is not the case with all paint and it is not wise to group paint into category's just by makes, models and colours.
Jap paints are not always soft but most are and German paints are not alway hard but most are.

Again this will be down to the OP to clarify. But as he has never machined the car I doubt he will know.

I agree with you in principle about the test. But for me the jury is still out till I get more facts.
Gordon.


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## reparebrise

Having never machine polished this car I can not say how hard or soft the paint is. I do know from polishing many black fords of he same model and year, that the paint is about as cheap as it can get.

I assume that RDS means scratch on this forum, and the marks you are referring to are caused by snow removal brushes(very common here, many cars have clean sides, but extremely scratched hoods, roofs and trunk lids, other Canadians can certainly concur). The scratches that show up under direct harsh light could easily be removed with a light polish(eg: Optimum Poly-Seal and an orange pad on a dual action polisher).

For the other concerns, here goes. The reason I have shown this section is to dispel the possible claims that it has been polished(polishing the decorations removes the colored ink). The light I have has one xenon and one led. I invite anyone visiting Quebec to come inspect the car as they wish. The pictures were taken with the only camera I have. If you are able to wash a car for a year with any other method without scratching, you will be able to do the same with waterless wash. I have never had a customer complain about scratching g on there car.


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## caledonia

^^^Thanks for the information it give me something else to think about.
I will continue to watch this to see where it goes.
But bin the brush its a swear word over here. Not the done thing, but different countries different climates.
Gordon.


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## Dave KG

caledonia said:


> ^^^Thanks for the information it give me something else to think about.
> I will continue to watch this to see where it goes.
> But bin the brush its a swear word over here. Not the done thing, but different countries different climates.
> Gordon.


Re: the brush, its pretty much a necessity where Diane is from in America... You can get six inches, sometimes a lot more, of snow on your car and you have to remove it from the whole car before driving as the police get very unhappy with the snow flying off on the highway... hecne why you would get the brush marks. Thats what Diane tells me anyway, maybe she was just making excuses for her car care! :lol::lol:


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## caledonia

I know this is another swear word but I would rather use something a bit kinder. Like a water blade. There I said it now I am away to hide. :lol:
Surely better than a brush and with snow you would not need to touch the paint. Will not save the finish if there is grit below the snow. But it must be better than a brush.
Gordon

PS Wheres the nearest bush.


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## Jesse74

bidderman1969 said:


> whats the limitations to this aswell?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> guessing, but this couldnt be done with a waterless wash?
> 
> also, whats wrong with bio-degradable snow foams? or are there any at the minute?
> 
> what is the safest foams? light bulbs are fast changing to energy saving ones, why cant this be the same for snowfoaming, then we'd be much happier in just changing products instead of techniques?


The snow foam that I use here in HU is 100% biodegradable... and the wheel cleaner I use, as well as the engine degreaser


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## Dave KG

caledonia said:


> I know this is another swear word but I would rather use something a bit kinder. Like a water blade. There I said it now I am away to hide. :lol:
> Surely better than a brush and with snow you would not need to touch the paint. Will not save the finish if there is grit below the snow. But it must be better than a brush.
> Gordon
> 
> PS Wheres the nearest bush.


My method is to sit in the car until its warm and all the snow has melted! :lol::lol:


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## Bigpikle

thanks for pics Yvan, and openness :thumb:

A few comments:

1. the car has covered 70,000kms without a polish EVER - how many cars do you see brand new from dealers with damage like that, or worse, ALREADY on them. A quick search of some of PB's details, and others, will show you quite a few...

2. 150+ washes in the conditions in Canada - that looks pretty damn good to me. I have seen the personal car of a well-known 'institution' on this site (no I wont name them) close up during washing, and it was pretty swirled. He admitted it was because he wasnt always as careful as he might be and polished it every year anyway, despite 2 buckets and all the right products 

3. we dont know about the paint, but all know the issues with softer paints, where even buffing wax can cause marring, so we dont really know what we are dealing with here.

4. The panel has loads of decals on it, that were no doubt applied professionally, by somebody using a prep product and something to smooth out the decal after application. I'd say there was a fair risk someone could easily inflict some damage in that process if they weren't an OCD detailer as well. 

I would like to see someone wash a car 150 times with weather conditions like Canadian winters, and see what the results were like.

So there are lots of questions and variables to look at. What might be a good way to answer some of them would be to get a UK car and polish it to a high standard and then conduct a test over a few months and see what the results were, on a known car and using typical UK conditions. I am going to do this with my Audi using ONR, as I have been doing it for months anyway, and the car is just as swirl free as ever, but it would also be great to see a quality waterless product put through its paces 'DW style' as well. Might turn out to be unacceptable to our standards, but might surprise us?????


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## drive 'n' shine

Sorry Damon but to me you are trying to defend it because you want waterless to work.

I doubt anyone who charges for their services would be happy in handing back a clients car with paintwork in that condition.

Maybe this an area we'll have to agree to disagree on


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## Bigpikle

^^ maybe...

Sure, i'd like it if it did work, but am yet to actually be convinced, as like everyone here I havent seen it be successful yet - or unsuccessful... I agree with all the points raised, but until I see it work or not, I am trying to keep an open mind as much as possible. I know ONR works while many swear it couldnt possibly, as I've used it for months now myself with no issues whatsoever, but thats completely different to whats being discussed here and certainly not waterless.

Last week I looked at the waterless stuff Jon posted about recently, and after a quick 'play' with those on his car, I wouldnt dream of using them on my car, for all the reasons you have mentioned. I have 1 other product that I have tried twice now, and it did do a good job however and bears further consideration IMHO.

Like I suggested, maybe a test that avoids so many of the questions above, might give us a more concrete answer to whether its useless for what we want, or a possible option _in some circumstances_? I think I may well just polish 1 wing on my car and use this exclusively on it for the year and see what the effects are, as I have a feeling I'll know pretty quickly if if adds swirls or not.


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## Bigpikle

one other point I should have added, is that from what I have read, people I have spoken with and my own thoughts, I really do believe that there is a very real risk that in the near future, either legislation or simply policy changes by landlords and landowners, _could_ FORCE valeters/detailers to stop using water based methods in many circumstances. I have already heard several anecdotal stories of major commercial landowners stopping all water based cleaning on their large industrial sites and business parks, and valeters losing huge chunks of profitable business because they used water and buckets.

I honestly believe we should be looking for solutions to issues like this before they land on us, and potentially cost people lost business. If you have your own unit, with all the correct waste disposal solutions and permissions then you are safer, but far bigger industries than car cleaning have been demolished by governments changing laws, and with us essentially being 'bent over' by European lawmakers continually, it might happen at any time. Many places in Europe are already operating under far harsher restrictions than the UK....

Just another viewpoint, other than tree-hugging, for looking at alternatives. I spent the last 8 years growing a very successful business in my 'day job' and am just as motivated by profitable business as I am about being as eco-friendly as possible


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## reparebrise

Clever Nickname said:


> The snow foam that I use here in HU is 100% biodegradable... and the wheel cleaner I use, as well as the engine degreaser


100% biodegradable, but in how much time? IF it takes longer to bio degrade than it takes the run off to get to the local waterway, then it's too late.

Waterless and rinseless washes are definatly not for all situations, but they should be a part of any competent detailers tool chest. Using these solutions when the situation calls for it will not only prevent waste, but also increase profits, as both these methods require less time.


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## Martin Burnard

Sounds ideal for the likes of me.

I run a car sales business, just the two of us do everything!

So anything that reduces the faff is good, no comment on the environmental side (we use cars!).

So is this the ideal thing for me....... sounds like it.

I am so curious I shall investigate further.


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## SuperchargedLlama

Personally I don't think I'll be going waterless, I enjoy it too much. BUT I will be perfectly happy to use rain water etc to do it rather than using the stuff from the tap.


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## Relaited

I recently went home to Boston. Wow, although I grew up there, it is snowing at record levels. Was great to have my kids play while snowing. But next day, my mom & dads cars had all the road salt you speak of.

I used a sample that Yvan had shared at the Mobile Tech Expo. Worked like a charm for me. Handled the road salt ... I was surprised, pleasantly. I get that a sample size of 2 is not always the best ... but seeing is believing! 

And the windows … I now get why some polish windows. With all the scraping off of snow, they had lots of scratches. But my mom & dad both had the same 2 comments. Wow, I can really see out of the windshield and 2, we noticed it was easier to remove the snow from the glass after using the product. 

So, I get why someone would use water to clean a vehicle that was off roading, but now I do not agree with the challenges of road salt on paint. And it has benefits. I took it to my high school buddy, into cars, and we cleaned his wife’s car in the comfort of his heated garage! Try that with the foam. To take a position that this model does not work, ever, is way to extreme for me. Seeing is believing and I do not think you can dismiss it from a picture.

Lastly, does anyone else share a concern of Foam in that anything that can clean without agitation may remove protection with the dirt? I am looking at a Warranty Registration for a Paint Protection offered at a dealership. “NOTICE: We advise you not to use “touch-free” car washes because the harsh chemicals typically used by “touch-free” car washes will destroy the Paint Protection and will void all terms and conditions of the warranty”

The approach I take is that Foam is very unattractive, in my opinion, and creates to much run off. Yet there are people here who champion it, and although I have only been here a while and am careful of advice on a forum, I do respect the opinion … if the pros think it has value, then I just assume it must have value. Right cars, right place, right model. I have questions, but do not dismiss. That how I think about it.

-jim
:wall:


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## PJS

Relaited said:


> Lastly, does anyone else share a concern of Foam in that anything that can clean without agitation may remove protection with the dirt? I am looking at a Warranty Registration for a Paint Protection offered at a dealership. "NOTICE: We advise you not to use "touch-free" car washes because the harsh chemicals typically used by "touch-free" car washes will destroy the Paint Protection and will void all terms and conditions of the warranty"
> 
> The approach I take is that Foam is very unattractive, in my opinion, and creates to much run off. Yet there are people here who champion it, and although I have only been here a while and am careful of advice on a forum, I do respect the opinion … if the pros think it has value, then I just assume it must have value. Right cars, right place, right model. I have questions, but do not dismiss. That how I think about it.


The thing is Jim, when most, if not all, of us here talk about snow foaming as a pre-wash treatment, we're talking about non-caustic products.
Granted with heavy handedness, you can produce too strong a solution, but from the typical comments I see here, most people are using too weak a solution to attack the LSP.

As has been pointed out by a manufacturer member, we here in the European Union, have strict guidelines on the surfactants we're supposed to be using in products for cleaning. To that end, I have absolutely no reservations about using the product that I do, even though it runs into a public drain.

As reparebrise has said, for some people, waterless/rinseless might/should be a part of their arsenal for when the need arises/presents itself - but due to various factors, there remains a healthy dose of scepticism on how well these work over the long term.


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## Dream Machines

I dont believe in completely waterless, five litres per car to clean the chamois (either synthetic or microfibre style) and the style magic as the lubricant that the chamois picks up

Is there a way of charging paintwork so that dust is repelled like two magnets can repel each other. positive or negatively charging the body?
Pressure is the enemy. use hardly any pressure or none and the marring is almost nil


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## AndyC

Dream Machines said:


> Is there a way of charging paintwork so that dust is repelled like two magnets can repel each other. positive or negatively charging the body?
> Pressure is the enemy. use hardly any pressure or none and the marring is almost nil


Not sure on that one as I'm not a scientist BUT I think many peoples' concerns stem from dirt/mud and the stuff they're hosing our roads with at present here in the UK/Europe (grit, salt, de-icer, anti freeze etc) and looking at my own car right now I'd struggle to let myself use a waterless system but I reckon that's as much about technique as product (probably more so TBH).

It's got salt caked onto virtually every panel, solidified grit etc in the arches and sills and so on. I know it'll clean up nicely once the weather improves but I can't see a waterless system doing the same job.

During the summer, I think I could switch to waterless on my toy as it doesn't go out in bad weather and usually only has a thin layer of dust/grime rather than mud and dirt. My daily driver usually wears a layer of bugs over the summer as 1000 miles a week means it rarely stays clean for more than a couple of days anyway.


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## Dream Machines

yes you poor UKers are copping it left right and centre right now and also get sludge and crap on your roads that us aussie's never get as our climate is so much different


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## Jakedoodles

Interesting topic, this. I would never discount anything without first assessing the evidence first. Sadly, in this case, I am yet to see any! We've seen direct light pictures, and there were swirls/RDS present, but it seems this was caused by a snow brush, not waterless detailing. It seems this request isn't filtering through, so I will repeat it. 

I would like to see a panel, in direct light, that has been machine polished so as to display no swirls whatsoever. Then for said panel to be IPA or similar wiped down so as to remove any potential fillers or oils. Then a picture taken. 

Then panel made dirty. 

Then panel washed with waterless product and IPA repeated. 

If there is no damage at all, then consider me one step closer to being sold on the issue. If it's damaged, then I will be in the same situation as the present with regards to using the standard wash technique. 

What you have to remember, Jim, is that detailing for us is a business, a way to make a living. It feeds my family, and gives me some money to spend on shoes. Now as much as I love the environment, and as much as I woul love to save it, we are oft restricted in how much we can do this. Take driving for instance. In order for my business to survive, I need to get in my van, a diesel, and drive to places, in turn polluting the environment. I also have to use electricity which also pollutes the environment. That's not to mention the plastic packaging of all my products (and yours too,) the creation of which also pollute the environment. I do all these things because there's no other way to run my business. The same applies for using a lot of water which goes down the drain. It's necessary in order to provide my customers with a service they expect (which feeds my family, remember.) Damaging their cars in order to be kind to the environment is simply not an option, as much as walking to my customers houses instead of driving is not. Sometimes you can't do right on all accounts.


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## Dream Machines

Wonderman - I certainly do understand where you are coming from, however there are a wide variety of waterless products. Some are totally dry and others are semi dry and wet

The dry ones are those that I am concerned about. Those that are used with dry microfibre towels are the ones that could cause some marring, either quickly or over time
The semi dry ones are better and are mostly just a superb lubricant that allows a damp or wet chamois to glide over the surface in one direction and pick up the grime

The wet ones are what I call water wise
5 to 8 litres of water in a bucket (to clean the wash media), a chamois for the body only and the waterwise product which does nothing but lubricate

IMHO the best product is Style Magic as it is the product mentioned above, used by the technique above.
I have checked and checked it, no filling or abrasive polishing is done by the product and it is completely natural from australian plant extracts

The United Kingdom would probably be the one place where going waterless would not be such a high priority as of course it rains alot more over there than the aussie sunburnt country which is alot of desert, always having a drought somewhere and the water supply isn't always at it's high level, if ever and temps get to up to 50 odd celcius in SA, VIC and Western Australia in summer with poor rainfall in recent years


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## reparebrise

Wonder detail

Like you detailing for me is a business, feeding over 50 families on my account. We have chosen waterless, ONR and low pressure/low flow pressure washer. By combining these 3 elements we have satisfied customers, happy employees(in our climate wet clothing of boots are not fun)and increased revenue.

I like your idea about the polishing a panel to perfection, getting it dirty and cleaning it, and again taking a picture. I will endeavor to do this soon.


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## Gleammachine

reparebrise said:


> I like your idea about the polishing a panel to perfection, getting it dirty and cleaning it, and again taking a picture. I will endeavor to do this soon.


I look forward to this, but to be honest it should have been done a lot earlier when the questions were raised a few weeks ago, your obviously going to plug the product or even have links to the company so I would imagine it was worthwhile to do a correct review and application to start with.

I have tried a few waterless products and would never use them again, so I'm not going to be sold on the idea, nor would my clients. Could just imagine what the owner of a £150k Ferrari or lamborghini would say to me when I tell him I'm saving the planet by not using water and a proven method to clean his car defect free.

Will watch with interest though, and make sure it's nicely splattered when you do a breakdown test of the product.:thumb:


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## Dream Machines

Thats understandable gleam machine, there are many full waterless products that I hate too


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## Jakedoodles

reparebrise said:


> Wonder detail
> 
> Like you detailing for me is a business, feeding over 50 families on my account. We have chosen waterless, ONR and low pressure/low flow pressure washer. By combining these 3 elements we have satisfied customers, happy employees(in our climate wet clothing of boots are not fun)and increased revenue.
> 
> I like your idea about the polishing a panel to perfection, getting it dirty and cleaning it, and again taking a picture. I will endeavor to do this soon.


But the contrast is that I would not consider the picture you posted to be in any way acceptable for a car I was maintaining. If one of my contract customers cars was marred, swirled, or scratched in ANY way, I would have failed them.


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## Relaited

Just wanted to share a story on an offering in Doncaster with a Water Smart Eco Detailing model http://www.thestar.co.uk/doncaster/Car-cleaners-take-a-shine.5133214.jp

Looks like this is happening in the UK?

Also, I was born in Boston, and it would be a really hard sell to tell me that anyone's weather is more harsh, that the vehicle conditions are much more challenging than in Boston ... and these guys have figured it out http://greencleanmobile.com/

-jim


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## Relaited

Just wanted to share what several Cities are doing here in California.

This is why I am such a believer in the business opportunity associated with the "waterless" model ... I call it Water Smart Eco Detailing

http://www.venturacountystar.com/news/2009/apr/03/oxnard-will-force-mobile-car-washers-to-capture/

If we have received facts that it is illegal in the UK to discharge into the storm drain system, then that is a compelling event that necessitates industry change.

I can see that a couple people get it here. Not right away, but soon, you will see their wisdom.

The challenges I get here are no different than those I have received on US forums. No different.

-jim


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