# Will front - wheel drive BMW'S kill the brand?



## Soul boy 68 (Sep 8, 2013)

You may have witnessed the very first production BMW to power the front wheels in the brands history. The 2 series Active and grand tourers are BMW's first FWD cars, so it's no secret that BMW is looking at affordable FWD cars in it's range. This could well upset BMW fans on here and one of the main reasons of this is the growing demand for compact cars and the tightening of economy restrictions. BMW claim they can make fun to drive FWD cars just like VW's Golf GTI and the Fiesta ST. If BMW can provide the same sort of sensation then who cares which axle is the driven one. Can you imagine a FWD M car? dosn't bare thinking about, does it? But more importantly does this new shift in philosophy for BMW's entry level cars kill the brand?


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## 182_Blue (Oct 25, 2005)

95% of BMW owners couldn't give two hoots IMO, heck 50% or more probably have no idea they are even rear wheel drive.

This is just my opinion and not necessarily factual


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

No. 

People who want to buy a car similar to a 2 series touring will consider the 2 series touring. Those who don't, won't. 

We seem to have had numerous threads about the 2 series touring for the last few years ever since it was announced, since then nothing has happened with BMW. 

They make some good cars, they make some bad cars. All they are doing is providing choice and making money as a business. 

People's obsession for battering BMW just because the 2 series touring is just plain odd.


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

Also BMW already has the Mini. The Mini hardly hurts the image as loads of people love the Mini. 

There's a lot of people willing to spend a lot of money to have one.

If BMW make a good FWD car, there will be a market. FWD won't work on higher range cars, more so M cars.


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## robertdon777 (Nov 3, 2005)

Still outsell Audi, even with all those Bangle Designs people moaned about.

The Gap in European sales actually got bigger between BMW and Audi this year so I don't think they care much.

They are well made, go well, usually look good but above all else they have always had great marketing....this is what sells cars.


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## PugIain (Jun 28, 2006)

People will pay anything for anything with the right name.
They don't care what it is.

Hence the plums who buy apple products.
Hence the people who will drive around in a car as well specced as a cave, with the right badge on the front.


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## Blackroc (Dec 10, 2012)

The next generation 1 series will be FWD, and the FWD 2 series GC is on its way...



















There will always be the 'purists' who will go on about driving pleasure and 'fun factor' that RWD cars produce, however, BMW are trying to reduce costs, and up sales, so they see FWD as the way to do this within (for now) it's bread and butter segment.

However, I bet most people buying BMWs these days are not buying the cars for the RWD 'benefits' - more a case of buying into the brand and price point


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## Kimo (Jun 7, 2013)

No

Half the people don't even realise they drive a rwd


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## Christian6984 (Dec 20, 2007)

The New mini I had certainly was no less fun because of being FWD, its a very different drive to my ST but my no means was it boring on a day to day use. The Variable Damper Control helps to adjust the ride you want and could make it much comfier than my hot hatch.


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## Squadrone Rosso (Aug 11, 2009)

There was a picture going around a year or so with a Mumsnet version with the snow socks on the front wheels...lol


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## Clancy (Jul 21, 2013)

No won't affect it 

But God to new styling is terrible imo, that's the big turn off


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## millns84 (Jul 5, 2009)

I don't think so. For the more interesting BMW's then yes, RWD but for your average 118d, 320d etc - Would the average buyer even know the difference and more importantly care about it?

I like the thought of these Xdrive BMW's having said that. They could really attack Audi's S models with quicker versions


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## Warwick1984 (Oct 18, 2012)

I bought mine because it was rear wheel drive. Brings a whole new dimension to driving if you have never owned RWD before

I agree if its lower powered you won't notice but a higher powered model completely different


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## 4d_dc2 (Mar 28, 2008)

Low power rwd cars with open diffs and traction controll drive no different to any other boring car. Mercedes CLA and A class are both front wheel drive and I'm guessing half the owners don't know or even care. A 300bhp Nissan silvia on the other hand is another kettle of fish lol.


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## JBirchy (Oct 9, 2010)

millns84 said:


> I don't think so. For the more interesting BMW's then yes, RWD but for your average 118d, 320d etc - Would the average buyer even know the difference and more importantly care about it?
> 
> *I like the thought of these Xdrive BMW's having said that. They could really attack Audi's S models with quicker versions*


I thought that aswell but all reviews I've read from proper car magazines about X-Drive is that its very similar to the Quattro drivetrain (pretty inert, dulls the handling, makes it much less of a BMW). Not only that, it raises the ride height by 30mm or so which does nothing for the stance (aesthetically speaking).

My Wife has a 116i which is rear driven, and I can really tell it's rear driven. Even with such low power (134bhp), you can slightly adjust the handling balance on the throttle mid-corner (certainly no power oversteer or anything like that :lol: but full beans allows the rear to come back into line).

If I were to by a new BMW, it would ONLY be a RWD model.


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## alan hanson (May 21, 2008)

high power cars id rather have xdrive or 4wd than a rear wheel drive, not really interested completely in the fun factor more it sticking. i will open up more custom than close imho. only the person driving t will know (as said wont) to look at it will look no different to the outside world


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## Warwick1984 (Oct 18, 2012)

JBirchy said:


> I thought that aswell but all reviews I've read from proper car magazines about X-Drive is that its very similar to the Quattro drivetrain (pretty inert, dulls the handling, makes it much less of a BMW). Not only that, it raises the ride height by 30mm or so which does nothing for the stance (aesthetically speaking).
> 
> My Wife has a 116i which is rear driven, and I can really tell it's rear driven. Even with such low power (134bhp), you can slightly adjust the handling balance on the throttle mid-corner (certainly no power oversteer or anything like that :lol: but full beans allows the rear to come back into line).
> 
> If I were to by a new BMW, it would ONLY be a RWD model.


Complete agreement. Mine is a RWD 330d but I had a 330d GT xdrive for a week as a courtesy car and it was boring to drive. To predictable and no character. Also as stated suspension height is different as well and not as pleasing on the eye


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## Loudandproud205 (Oct 18, 2015)

Nope morons will still buy them and forget how to use indicators. 

I had one drive in to my ambulance in Nottingham today am guessing the fact its 7 foot wide 10 foot tall and 20 odd foot long it was easy to miss as its reflective stripes down the side were all camouflaged! I just hate the response "I didn't see you" as it cuts you up.


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## JBirchy (Oct 9, 2010)

Loudandproud205 said:


> Nope morons will still buy them and forget how to use indicators.
> 
> I had one drive in to my ambulance in Nottingham today am guessing the fact its 7 foot wide 10 foot tall and 20 odd foot long it was easy to miss as its reflective stripes down the side were all camouflaged! I just hate the response "I didn't see you" as it cuts you up.


Nothing to do with BMW drivers at all then?

Morons buy every make and model of car.


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

JBirchy said:


> Nothing to do with BMW drivers at all then?
> 
> Morons buy every make and model of car.


I've said it quite a few times, some people should try driving a BMW for a certain length of time and see how other drivers treat you. You'll soon learn that the aggressiveness shown on the forums towards BMW drivers is what happens on the road.

My last car before the M235i was the A45 AMG. It's obviously an aggressive little shouty number. The vast majority of people were really positive towards it. All the boy racers and even grown up drivers wanted to race it, but I I'm sure they just wanted a bit of fun.

However driving the 335i before the A45 and now the M235i, it's amazing how driving exactly the same way people behave differently towards me.

You can bet that far more people will squeeze up gaps, not let you merge when it's fair and generally behave aggressively.

Their preconceptions make them behave badly, but you can bet they see the BMW driver at fault.


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## GleemSpray (Jan 26, 2014)

Doesn't make any difference whether its FWD, RWD or AWD.

Its down to how well the engineers have mated it to the engine and chassis.

And then its down to the driver to know the difference and how to drive it.


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## JBirchy (Oct 9, 2010)

Kerr said:


> I've said it quite a few times, some people should try driving a BMW for a certain length of time and see how other drivers treat you. You'll soon learn that the aggressiveness shown on the forums towards BMW drivers is what happens on the road.
> 
> My last car before the M235i was the A45 AMG. It's obviously an aggressive little shouty number. The vast majority of people were really positive towards it. All the boy racers and even grown up drivers wanted to race it, but I I'm sure they just wanted a bit of fun.
> 
> ...


Isn't it annoying though? Really winds me up. My Wife has a BMW and I often drive it and witness the hostility of other drivers. I don't know whether it's jealousy? I'm inclined to think it is.

M235i is a stunning car btw... I'm hoping a 340i M-Sport (same motor) will be my next car.

Sorry OP, slightly off topic.


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## Soul boy 68 (Sep 8, 2013)

JBirchy said:


> Isn't it annoying though? Really winds me up. My Wife has a BMW and I often drive it and witness the hostility of other drivers. I don't know whether it's jealousy? I'm inclined to think it is.
> 
> M235i is a stunning car btw... I'm hoping a 340i M-Sport (same motor) will be my next car.
> 
> Sorry OP, slightly off topic.


What about when I hopefully get the M2, I'll give them hostility Soulboy style


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

JBirchy said:


> Isn't it annoying though? Really winds me up. My Wife has a BMW and I often drive it and witness the hostility of other drivers. I don't know whether it's jealousy? I'm inclined to think it is.
> 
> M235i is a stunning car btw... I'm hoping a 340i M-Sport (same motor) will be my next car.
> 
> Sorry OP, slightly off topic.


It can be very annoying, but I can usually see it coming and don't get involved.

Although the guy who chopped me up last night really annoyed me. I stopped for a few minutes as I had caught up with a gritter. I wasn't in a rush and didn't fancy a face full of grit.

Back on the road there was obviously a lot of fresh grit down. Overtaking a few cars I could see a guy getting a bit pushy.

Next thing he was underneath me and cut out right in front of forcing me to brake. It was that close. Also crossing the road he kicked up all the grit that I had made the effort to avoid.

I didn't even beep my horn even though I was livid with him. I then overtook him again soon after and got a disapproving stare from him as if I had done something wrong.

It's obviously something to do with jealously or a complex of some sort, but based on what I don't know.

My A45 AMG cost more, it was a bright red, it is a hot hatch, it was loud, basically everything that makes makes a car stand out and upset people. However it didn't.

What emotion the BMW badge stirs I don't know. You'll read this forum and see how many people have an irrational hate/complex.

It's no wonder they can't behave on the road.


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## Caledoniandream (Oct 9, 2009)

The problem with BMW and Audi is, that it's very much a fleet car, driven by junior management and sales people.
A lot of these people seem to be a lot in a hurry, and are impatient.
This spoils it for other drivers who have manors and drive normal.
The joke regarding German cars coming without indicators is an opinion from the general public, and get proven very often to be correct.
The perception of a driver when an Audi of BMW appears is that it will pull out right in front of you or hang on your back bumper. 

Regarding the question if FWD spoils the BMW brand, I think that already happened when they brought the compact and the 1 series on the market.
BMW lost their exclusivity and is now a car maker in the line with VW, Ford and Audi, instead of an exclusive brand.
The 3 series should have been their smallest model, anything else should have been marketed on the Mini brand.

When I was young BMW was a dream car, exclusive and special.
Now it's just a car!
It has lost its magic!


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

I don't remember BMW ever being an exclusive club. There has always been the flagship models and some very ordinary cars. 

It was 22 years ago they gave us the 3 series compact. Every other 3 series was a 316i with tiny small wheels with wheel trims and big grey bumpers. Half of them were some horrible bottle green too. 

BMW have always been a mainstream manufacturer that just happens to make nice cars alongside some ordinary and some poor cars too. 

It's been the same for as far back as I can remember. 

In 20 years time we'll fondly look back at the 1M, M2/3/4/5/6, Z4M and will block the 2 series touring from our memories.


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## shine247 (Mar 1, 2010)

Do not believe it will kill the brand at all but some drivers who really like rear wheel drive may migrate just as some may move towards a fwd bmw. Problem is, there is not that much mainstream that is appealing to migrate to.


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## D.Taylor R26 (Feb 5, 2012)

As long as fwd is reserved for the dull cars in the bmw range I dont think it will be an issue. 

To me all 1,3 and 5 series still feel rear driven regardless of engine size and are the only everyday cars that still possess any balance in the chassis. 

My M135i certainly feels rear driven in these low temps.


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## Loudandproud205 (Oct 18, 2015)

JBirchy said:


> Nothing to do with BMW drivers at all then?
> 
> Morons buy every make and model of car.


When you do as many miles as me and sweep as many accidents up as I do you notice patterns.


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## Andyg_TSi (Sep 6, 2013)

Kerr said:


> I don't remember BMW ever being an exclusive club. There has always been the flagship models and some very ordinary cars.
> 
> It was 22 years ago they gave us the 3 series compact. Every other 3 series was a 316i with tiny small wheels with wheel trims and big grey bumpers. Half of them were some horrible bottle green too.
> 
> ...


No BMW haven't ever been an exclusive club, however, like Mercedes, years ago, BMW were very much a premium brand you aspired to & had to be doing well in life to afford
I passed my test in 1991 at 17 and to afford a Beemer You HAD to be well off to be driving a decent 3 series or something bigger.

A BMW was something to aspire to owning, like a merc, but then something changed.......The advent of renting a car via a pcp or 3 year options deal, rather than buying outright made them cheaper to own

BMW's becoming the choice of fleet buyers and becoming rep-mobiles for salesmen, which were then sold on to the 2nd hand car market.
Mr salesman was in a Ford Sierra or Vauxhall Vectra at one time, now he's in his 3 series, C-class or Audi A4.

BMW is now just another volume car maker as Ford/Vauxhall for example.
You can also get a BMW/Merc on the motability scheme, so even someone on benefits can be driving round in a supposedly premium brand motor.

It's a shame that a Ford Mondeo (a good capable all round car) is actually a rarer car on the road than a BMW 3 series, so your more than likely going get a ****end rep in a hurry trying to get to a business park driving a BMW as you are in any other car these days


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

Loudandproud205 said:


> When you do as many miles as me and sweep as many accidents up as I do you notice patterns.


The massive insurance companies, with millions of customers, would argue against the patterns you see.

If you Google it, you'll find they will list all the cars most commonly involved in accidents and claims. The list won't be as you expect.

This is also backed up by the fact so many can insure their BMWs (especially the bigger engined ones) for very cheap.

Loads of guys in their mid 30s are insuring performance BMWs worth a lot of money for £200.

It used to cost me more to insure a new Citroën C5 than my BMWs or A45 AMG.


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## Alex_225 (Feb 7, 2008)

182_Blue said:


> 95% of BMW owners couldn't give two hoots IMO, heck 50% or more probably have no idea they are even rear wheel drive.
> 
> This is just my opinion and not necessarily factual


I suspect you're probably right. Most drivers have very little idea of the difference of front or rear wheel drive. So to them if the car looks nice, is well spec'd and isn't expensive to run they'll be happy.

From a petrolhead perspective it could dilute the brand. Thing is though for M cars it's about the performance figures. A FWD car is less likely to hit the 0-60 times of its rivals if they're all RWD or AWD so I'd be surprised if they made one FWD. If if they did I'd imagine it to be a hit hatch more than the typical high powered M car we've come to expect.


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## Blackmondie (Mar 13, 2011)

In my opinion: yes.
Thats the main reason I bought my bmw. For pulling stuff (horse trailer) you are better off with RWD. 
The feel when driving a RWD is also different as you can feel there is no force being put on those front wheels, so it steers way easiers.
So if they really do change a lot to FWD, I'm going to Merc instead.


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## muzzer (Feb 13, 2011)

Kerr said:


> I've said it quite a few times, some people should try driving a BMW for a certain length of time and see how other drivers treat you. You'll soon learn that the aggressiveness shown on the forums towards BMW drivers is what happens on the road.
> 
> My last car before the M235i was the A45 AMG. It's obviously an aggressive little shouty number. The vast majority of people were really positive towards it. All the boy racers and even grown up drivers wanted to race it, but I I'm sure they just wanted a bit of fun.
> 
> ...


Whilst i agree with your statement, i've seen most brand of cars being driven by halfwits, i do tend to see lots of BMW's performing selfish and stupid manouvers on the roads i use. Now that is most likely down to the individual driving the car rather than the brand as a whole, and i've seen the same sort of behaviour from audi, merc, citroen,renault,vw as well but not in the same numbers.

Might just be a perception thing, in that you notice BMW drivers doing selfish stuff more because of the perception they are owned and driven by that sort of person. For me, i'd love a bmw, specifically a 330d touring but sadly i suffer from pecuniary strangulation


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## Soul boy 68 (Sep 8, 2013)

muzzer42 said:


> Whilst i agree with your statement, i've seen most brand of cars being driven by halfwits, i do tend to see lots of BMW's performing selfish and stupid manouvers on the roads i use. Now that is most likely down to the individual driving the car rather than the brand as a whole, and i've seen the same sort of behaviour from audi, merc, citroen,renault,vw as well but not in the same numbers.
> 
> Might just be a perception thing, in that you notice BMW drivers doing selfish stuff more because of the perception they are owned and driven by that sort of person. For me, i'd love a bmw, specifically a 330d touring but sadly i suffer from pecuniary strangulation


Pecuniary strangulation


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

Some other popular perceptions on the Internet. 

No woman can drive. 

Every Muslim is a potential terrorist. 

Every immigrant is only here for benefits, or is useless at washing cars.



Another example I'll use is Wayne Rooney. For the last at least 5-7 years people have been ganging up on him saying he's finished and not good enough for England. Granted he has been poorer this season. 

However for years on end the people making the noises got bigger and bigger. They all joined in with the campaign against him.

A lot if people hate Man Utd, Rooney is a Man Utd player. I guess a lot steams from this.

As a completely impartial football fan, anytime I've watched England Rooney is usually the best player. Like all players he has bad games and people only ever highlight them. 

They somehow seem to completely avoid seeing facts and make up any old nonsense to discredit him. 

The guy is England's highest ever goalscorer, have a look at the games he's scored in, a lot if his goals have been crucial goals and not the 5th goal whilst beating San Marino.

He been one of England's best, if not the best, players for years. Every stat in the book backs this up. Many of the best coaches and impartial fans can see this too. 

However there's a massive amount of people who appear to see something completely different.

He probably gets more personal insults than any other English footballer too. 

There is no rational explanation how some people can aquire the chain of thought they do.


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## muzzer (Feb 13, 2011)

Soul boy 68 said:


> Pecuniary strangulation


Yeah i'm skint


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## muzzer (Feb 13, 2011)

Kerr said:


> Some other popular perceptions on the Internet.
> 
> No woman can drive.
> 
> ...


It's not just the net though is it, for years Clarkson perpetuated the urban legend that all BMW's are driven by male chickens. Now to the average man on the street that watched Top Gear, that then becomes gospel. The net just expanded that view and it doesnt matter that he then said all Audi's are driven by male chickens, the point about BMW's has stuck. As i said, i'd love a BMW especially the new M3 but sadly i'm skint


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

muzzer42 said:


> It's not just the net though is it, for years Clarkson perpetuated the urban legend that all BMW's are driven by male chickens. Now to the average man on the street that watched Top Gear, that then becomes gospel. The net just expanded that view and it doesnt matter that he then said all Audi's are driven by male chickens, the point about BMW's has stuck. As i said, i'd love a BMW especially the new M3 but sadly i'm skint


Jeremy Clarkson said in his review of the E92 M3, so that's a long time ago, it's now safe to buy a BMW as all the ****s now drive Audis.

The one that always gets cast up is Clarkson's review of the Astra VXR. Yet he did the same with the Audi RS5, yet that's not commonly rubbed in the face of Audi RS drivers.

Urban Myth is probably the key words, but like you say though, some people do align their views to Jeremy Clarkson. However they still manage to pick and choose which ones they want to believe.

It's only ever true if they want to believe something.


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## muzzer (Feb 13, 2011)

Kerr said:


> Jeremy Clarkson said in his review of the E92 M3, so that's a long time ago, it's now safe to buy a BMW as all the ****s now drive Audis.
> 
> The one that always gets cast up is Clarkson's review of the Astra VXR. Yet he did the same with the Audi RS5, yet that's not commonly rubbed in the face of Audi RS drivers.
> 
> ...


Indeed, not that long ago a guy went past the shop below me in his BMW 330ci a wee bit above the speed limit....okay he was way over 30mph and an old boy came out of the shop and his exact words were

Oh he's a male chicken like that Jeremy Clarkson said

I kid you not, it doesn't matter that people go past here like their hair is on fire in all sorts of cars or on all sorts of motorbikes, because he drove a BMW that made him a male chicken. That's the average guy on the street who like you said, wants to believe something that "that Clarkson guy off the telly" said

Yet despite all of that, BMW as a brand is still thriving


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## Guest (Dec 8, 2015)

muzzer42 said:


> Yet despite all of that, BMW as a brand is still thriving


Which would lead me to suspect that they don't really have an image problem :thumb:. Sure, there will be a minority who are scathing towards BMW (or indeed any prestige make). But there is an undeniable fact that they do make very good cars. 
Love them or hate them, they are the benchmark that all others are judged against. I don't ask if my Audi/Merc/Alfa saloon etc handles as well as a Mondeo, I ask if it handles as well as a 3-series. It is this, that imho, keeps them where they are. I'll be honest and admit it's also why my next car WILL be a BMW. Not for prestige, but for ability (and RWD).


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## muzzer (Feb 13, 2011)

I dont think they've ever had an image problem as such, just sheeple jumping on the bandwagon of "ooh let's all slate BMW's because Saint Clarkson did it"

I've always like them just cant afford one but as i said earlier, there is a perception that they are driven by male chickens


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## Soul boy 68 (Sep 8, 2013)

muzzer42 said:


> I dont think they've ever had an image problem as such, just sheeple jumping on the bandwagon of "ooh let's all slate BMW's because Saint Clarkson did it"
> 
> I've always like them just cant afford one but as i said earlier, there is a perception that they are driven by male chickens


Don't mean to sound ignorant Muzzer, but what is the term male chickens ?educate me on this one please


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## Guest (Dec 8, 2015)

muzzer42 said:


> I dont think they've ever had an image problem as such, just sheeple jumping on the bandwagon of "ooh let's all slate BMW's because Saint Clarkson did it"
> 
> I've always like them just cant afford one but as i said earlier, there is a perception that they are driven by male chickens


Ah, got ya! Sorry, misunderstood .


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## GleemSpray (Jan 26, 2014)

I remember the days before the BMW image problem. Back in the 80's they were just Premium prices, well-built, fast cars from Germany.

I think the problems started late 90's, when idiots who wanted "sports" cars with screaming 6 cylinder engines started to find that second hand BMW's were as affordable as their current choice of a new V6 Ford.


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## Daffy (Dec 15, 2005)

If people aren't put off by the terrible looks of modern BM's then where the power goes to will be the least of their concerns.


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