# solvent pop in clear



## Aaran (Sep 18, 2007)

im assuming if you get solvent pop in the clear its fixable by sanding down into the pop, finishing with p1000/1500 and relaying clear over it?


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## jason7474utd (Aug 21, 2010)

Depends on the severity of the popping mate if its bad enough the clear will just sit into the pops and look like loads of silicone. if its only a small amount of pop you may get away with wet flatting and re clearing with out seeing it its hard to say. Hope that helps mate


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## Aaran (Sep 18, 2007)

yhea though so. see my build thread, had left the clear for 5 weeks before wetsanding it on sunday, got to the car tonight and bam i have bits of solvent pop coming up through the exposed layer of clear (seems sporadic and looks like tiny little dots jsut poking up over what was a glass smooth finish). should have left the clear longer when laying the paint or left it until next year before wetsanding it. really wish i had my booth up now as having that control over the temps would save on issues like this

its not to bad and it looks high up in the clear so i might just try to wetsand it out completely without hitting the base coat. 

its pretty farking annoying, i did my last 2 cars in the same temps and the same way and never had this problem before lol. live and learn i guess.


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## mr paint (Jul 11, 2009)

yup as jason says 

only had it once before force drying black !

i would get the panel as hot as possible to get all solvent out sand with 400 coat of sealer and re-paint 


tommy


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## jason7474utd (Aug 21, 2010)

Yep defo need to heat them panels up last thing you want to do is sand it down and reclear just for any trapped solvent to rear its ugly head again and as Mr.paint said put a coat of barco on there as a neutralizer. By the sounds of it Aaran id hazzard a guess that the first coat hasnt taked off and the top coat has formed a skin pulling out the solvent from underneath as it cured over time. At the old place i worked at they installed some new booths that fired up to 90 degrees but only backed for 20 minutes to speed up booth times only problem was it caused the laquer to skin over before it dried out and this caused some sever solvent pop. hope you get it sorted buddy


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## moosh (May 8, 2011)

Dude does it look like lemonade?

Reason this has happend is you have laid down to many full coats of Clearcoat, I was taught 2 coats is the max with Clearcoat that can be laid in one sitting.

I've had it happen before, I normally flatten it back with 400-800 then re colour and clear.

Hard to repair as the pop normal float from the first coat, I think from memory you laid down around 4 coats.


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## Aaran (Sep 18, 2007)

first coat was pretty much touch dry when the second went on, second was semi tackey (finger would leave a slight imprint) and the third i dropped quite heavy. tbh looking back i bet its because i thinned the last 2 coats 10% and went rather heavy with the last coat

its not silicone or fish eyes (been there got the tee shirt lol), i brought a wing home with me tonight (sat on the bed near the radiator) i had this sanded but not polished, polished it tonight with just the G3 (old style as i though initially the new g3 ultra oils were forming a film stopping the solvent from escaping) but this is starting to go to. it looks like super super tiny perfectly round spots scattered around in the clear, will see how it looks in the morning if they get to the size of the ones on the car or become more pronounced

i sometimes get the odd little bit (normally if i sand out a run the odd bubble crops up there) just never had it on a large surface before. really want to avoid if possible re basing. going to get a decent infrared heater tomorrow and start heating each panel before re-sanding and re-clearing. weather is not with my anymore and trying to do a full car in the shed is a big nono, can manage a panel at a time a day with am infrared 

what grit do i need to hit the clear with after i have sanded out all of this crap? been told p600-800 is fine to re-clear over, others are saying go finer than 1000?? (this is assuming i can cut all the bubbles out)


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## moosh (May 8, 2011)

Aaran said:


> first coat was pretty much touch dry when the second went on, second was semi tackey (finger would leave a slight imprint) and the third i dropped quite heavy. tbh looking back i bet its because i thinned the last 2 coats 10% and went rather heavy with the last coat
> 
> its not silicone or fish eyes (been there got the tee shirt lol), i brought a wing home with me tonight (sat on the bed near the radiator) i had this sanded but not polished, polished it tonight with just the G3 (old style as i though initially the new g3 ultra oils were forming a film stopping the solvent from escaping) but this is starting to go to. it looks like super super tiny perfectly round spots scattered around in the clear, will see how it looks in the morning if they get to the size of the ones on the car or become more pronounced
> 
> ...


600 would be the hardest paper I would use you don't plan on re colouring, it can be smoothed by working up the grades to 1000 then cleared over. I think when the second coat went on the tacky coat it would have softened the first coat and so on, the thinner would have been the killer that would have softened the whole lot and the trapped thinner has probably caused the pop. I've rarely thinned clear for that reason and lay Clearcoat in two full wet coats only. I find with clear and even solid colours in shed any more than two coats and its curtains, different in a booth with heat but we don't have that luxury at this time of year. I've tofinish a group 4 mk2 escort in building and start painting a mk3 2.8 capri and both space heaters have packed in so I'm on hold at the moment.


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## Andyb0127 (Jan 16, 2011)

Sounds like over application. Did you say you gave 5 coats of clear, for an hs laquer that's far to many. Especially if your thinning it down with more thinners. Means your using even more solvents. Hs clears are only designed for a maximum of two coats. The correct way to apply more laquer would of been apply two coats, leave for at least a week then flat with p1000 taking care not Go through anywhere. Then apply another two coats of laquer, and repeat same process again if required but no need to over thin the clear. 
The bad news is if this is solvent boil those blisters are normally all the way down to the basecoat, but you won't really know until you start flatting, what gun set up did you use as this can also contribute to over application.


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## Aaran (Sep 18, 2007)

no 3 coats. will try to sand them out tomorrow and get a pic or two.


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## squiggs (Oct 19, 2009)

Did you bake/oven dry or air dry?


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## jason7474utd (Aug 21, 2010)

I like to finish in p1000 if its just reclearing as the finner the scratches are the better the clear will flow out and in turn a better finish. What laquer did you use aaran? if its a HS the the problem could lie with the 3 coats modern hs laquers as has been said are designed for 2 coat applications some of the major brands ie spies and standox of the top of my head are a 1 and a 1/2 coat application


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## toddy23 (Jun 16, 2012)

like already said about how many coats you should have applied,you can get away with half coat first coat and 2 good coats 2nd and 3rd coats as me watching this post knowing you where going to flat and polish the car back to mirror fininish so you needed the extracoat but atfer each heavy coat should have been left 20-30 min before the next coat to allow the solvents to escape.if you post a pic of the solvent pop so we can look at how bad it is as you can still flat and polish solvent pop cos the good thing is you have a lot of clear on before you rub through,ive had solvent pop loads its when you want a mirror finish and you over apply the clearcoat on the last coat but this is when you used a cheaper clearcoat,if you had applied like you did in a spray booth and baked it it wouldav a been miles worse but because you never baked it i think it will flat and polish so take some pics


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## toddy23 (Jun 16, 2012)

just do a square of solvent pop 1st with 1200 and rub until its gone with a bit of look the popping will be on your last coat of clear so you still have 4 more coats of clear under that lol.you mights well try this root 1st then you can think about reclear,but i dont think i have painted much again for solvent pop


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## moosh (May 8, 2011)

I hate to say it guys and it may seem arsey but the finish is ment to come from the gun not flattening the clearcoat to death and polishing.

When i was working in the garage if we saw one of the other guys fully flattening a panel we would all know he'd made a mess and it didnt happen often. De nibbing was about the normal in the bodyshop not fully wet sanding. Bodyshops are not paid for wet sanding and 99% of the time you are trying to match the new paint work peel/finish with the existing or previous so as not to make the new paint work stand out and thats where the training and experience comes into the equation.

if you get the prep work right and you have the right type of gun i.e. good quality gun the only other factor is being experienced in applying it.

Is there any way of catching a picture of it? I appreciate its dark when you are at the workshop during the week but they would help.


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## toddy23 (Jun 16, 2012)

thats all well and good doing paint jobs in spraybooths where youve better extraction,better lighting etc etc but this guy has done it his barn by the looks of things so he was never going to get the perfect mirror finish at home with out a lot of hard work,i say well done mate as for a black car your repairs looks ripple free i bet half the panels beaters on here cant do repairs with out any shimmys so well done and to get show standard YOU HAVE GOT TO FLAT AND POLISH TO GET IT LIKE GLASS IN EVERY NOOK AND CRANNY


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## toddy23 (Jun 16, 2012)

and theres no way i would try and match the shocking standards of original paint work on some cars as i have pride in my work and cant help it if my work is 100%better,when i do any job i want to be proud,have you seen vauxhalls paint it looks like its been painted in rattle cans


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## Andyb0127 (Jan 16, 2011)

The only way you will ever get laquer to look like glass, is to apply two coats of clear, then leave it for a week. Then you need to flat it all down with p1000 taking care not to go through. An then apply another two coats, this will make the clear sit a lot flatter and give a better finish, and should look like a mirror when finished. This is how we did it when I was restoring cars as painting them.


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## Andyb0127 (Jan 16, 2011)

I've got to agree with moosh here. We need to know few more facts like, what set up was in the spraygun used, what air pressure was used. These will all contribute to teh end product. We know three coats of clear were applied, far to much for an hs clear coat. Now going by what Aaron has said, my opinion is that this solvent boil is trapped between the first and third coat. So even if this flats out the most of the clear will been flatted off, leaving it with practically one coat of laquer, I don't really don't think it will flat out. If it does and it's polished up it may look ok but I'd be more worried that it will after a while die back because there will be no body or depth left in the clear coat. I thinks it down to inexperience at spraying may sound harsh but I'm just being honest as I'm sure Aaron would much more appreciate that. He just got a bit gungho with the laquer by over thinning it thinking at will lay flatter when really it shouldn't off been done that way. As regards to solving the problem it would be better to see some picture then a more accurate answer can be given.


As moosh said why would a bodyshop dead flat and polish all there paint jobs. We certainly don't where i am. And the marque of cars were painting they rely on the painters to get consistent finishes every time where it won't new to be dead flatted. The only cars wewi take longer polishing are the Aston martins as the paint finish has to be flat with a good depth of gloss, an even those only have one and a half coats of hs applied. It's all the prep then a decent spray gun ie sata or devilbiss me personally I use a sata RP for laquer but even that only has a 1.2 set up. Any decent painter should be able to get a gun finish with good results, all sprayers may paint different but the end result should be the same, that's with out this turning into well I use this gun, I use this paint, it's not an ego trip for spraying or who does what. It's about advising Aaron on how he can sort the problem of solvent boil out.


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## moosh (May 8, 2011)

toddy23 said:


> thats all well and good doing paint jobs in spraybooths where youve better extraction,better lighting etc etc but this guy has done it his barn by the looks of things so he was never going to get the perfect mirror finish at home with out a lot of hard work,i say well done mate as for a black car your repairs looks ripple free i bet half the panels beaters on here cant do repairs with out any shimmys so well done and to get show standard YOU HAVE GOT TO FLAT AND POLISH TO GET IT LIKE GLASS IN EVERY NOOK AND CRANNY


Toddy, settle fella no ones having a go at Aaron at all were all input not insulting and its all relevant to.

I to am working in a similar place to Aaron these days as I'm no longer in the trade so I know what he's up against I mainly build rally cars and work as an engineer during the week. but again a booth and proper lights does not get away from our issue of to much Clearcoat = solvent pop. which has now been established as the culprit.

FYI the painter is responsible for the finished repair not the panel beater, I do both as does Aaron so ultimately the buck stops with us at the paint prep stage.



toddy23 said:


> and theres no way i would try and match the shocking standards of original paint work on some cars as i have pride in my work and cant help it if my work is 100%better,when i do any job i want to be proud,have you seen vauxhalls paint it looks like its been painted in rattle cans


I wouldn't thank you for making my wing stand out from the rest of the car because you made it look like glass when there was a slight peel before. the skill in bodyshop work and something they teach in college is factory finish is how a car should leave the bodyshop if you understand what I mean? the car should look and be a factor repair standard and finish.


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## Aaran (Sep 18, 2007)

i have pics incoming. also got some interesting findings now i have sanded it back , also sanded back another area with p2000 and flatted it (quickly i might add!)


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## Aaran (Sep 18, 2007)

can see the odd bit, small about the size of the head of a blunt drawing pin (they look to be in the paint and are tiny, no bubbles coming through the clear)



















more along the bottom near the light recess

these were the worst ones out of the entire car.
about 10X the size and clearley visable, not here these ones ARE protruding from the paint after wetsanding. ALL the others look to be in the base/clear










wetsanded these off with p2000, strangle enough i got into the center fairly quick and they are white inside! but no color visible when clear was over them??



















will try to get a video later with my camera of this wing sat inside, like i say all the other little pops/dents look to be inside the clear (they do look like little half craters), looks like something has hit the first level of clear with tiny blunt punch, you have to look at the paint under a light and moving to see them (still pics wont capture them)
and again the only protruding ones are the big ones on that door i sanded down, is it dust/dirt trapped in the clear? if so why is it popping out now and why is it white inside?

gun was my 1.4mm LVLP gun, pressure at the gun base was 22psi (according to the instructions that equates to 9spi at the cap)
spray pattern was set correctly (all uniform small size particles on my test sheet i sprayed) its not the first car i have done but its the first i have ever had issues with like this.(my last one was coated 3 times with the exact same clear/hardener/base, same way etc etc)

base coat went down real thin and was left 30 mins between passes, i had a meal in between the last basecoat and first clear (about an hour)
first coat wet but thin, again this was pretty much dry to the finger when second went down.


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## Aaran (Sep 18, 2007)

video of wing. will have to excuse all the swirls and nasty finger marks only hit this iwth g3 very quickly last night.

someone has suggested the small marks in the paint are solvent pop/bubbles and the larger ones i got near the door handle were water ones from the base (hence why the spots have whiteish centers)



i have pricked the tiny bubbles with a very fine pin and they dont seem to be that deep, probably sat in the second and third layers of clear


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## Andyb0127 (Jan 16, 2011)

Did you wet flat the whole car ie the primer. As i see the building you prepped and painted it in is open to the elements. Reason I'm asking is because, did the look like micro blisters.
If you did wet flat the primer, before you left in the evenings after working on it. Did you dry it off then cover it up. 

I'm asking this because these solvent pop/blisters you have on the car. When flatted the white dots your seeing are they the same colour as the high build primer you have used on it. Because I hope I'm wrong but if these then out to be micro blisters, and are the same colour as the primer. The reason would be where you have wet flatted it all, and thought you have dried it properly and covered it back up, it looks like you may have trapped moisture in the primer causing the blisters, as the building is not sealed and would be open to moisture in the air this may of contributed to it aswell.


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## Andyb0127 (Jan 16, 2011)

Was there a water trap on the compressor, and drained every time before spraying as you could of water travel through the airline which is never a good thing.


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## pcm1980 (May 4, 2009)

I hope its not trapped moisture in primer for aarons sake, all top coats and primer would need to be removed and redone. One way to find out is to flat the panel til the marks are completely gone. If u block through the clear into the base and the marks are still there, then that would suggest moisture on primer.
Good luck!

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2


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## Aaran (Sep 18, 2007)

yup i have a moisture trap in line and after a long ass run from the compressor. tank and filter drained every day when painting.

i was going to paint the car on a sunday, but it started raining so i left it a full week (no more rain/sunny for that week) before laying the base. so it had been stood a full week in the warm from being wet sanded, all i did to prep it was to panel wipe the entire car down to de dust it and make sure i was not going to get any silicone. 

i think the only 2 options i have are as follows.
get heat in a panel for a full day,
then see if i can flat a panel all the way down to the first coat of clear without going through, then polish and see if i have gone past all these bubbles and defects. if so i will re-clear a part at a time and all should be good.

failing that if its in the base ill just have to sand back to base, heat and dry it out , rebase and re-clear. going to have to do a spot repair on one door anyway where i have those white spots so will prob go back to epoxy on that and re-primer and go from there.

dont really have any other option. lesson learned. thinner coats, more drying time and no thinners in the clear to get it to sit flatter. if i want to lay more ill do 2 clear, then flat once dry and do more another day. 

will update at the weekend once iv have some fun with some flatting fun lol


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## Andyb0127 (Jan 16, 2011)

I'd try an area just to see how far into the paint these blisters actually are. Putting heat into the panel may help, but also may not make any difference. 
It also may be an idea after using a solvent degreaser, to wipe the panels over with a Water base degreaser aswell. 
But that said they need to be flatted all the way back to remove them, regardless of if it needs priming again. But good luck with it Aaron I know how much hard work you've put into this car. I you need any more advice or are unsure about anything just ask fella or pm me only to glad to help. :thumb:


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## squiggs (Oct 19, 2009)

I'm still not sure if the lacquer was baked or not? 
If it wasn't then surely this can't be solvent pop - but I then I can't work out what has caused these 'bubbles' ?????
I'm I correct in my interpretation of the photos that rather than uniform round bubbles these are elongated bubbles? If so I would say it's not solvent pop, but more likely moisture introduced from your gun.. 
You say you drain the tank every day - how often do you drain the moisture trap? I drain mine once for every (approx) 15 mins of my comp running just to be on the safe side.
As you flat back you're opening the bubbles and filling them with wet residue which then dries white.


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## Aaran (Sep 18, 2007)

no squiggs it was air dried, been 5 weeks with no issues until i wet sanded it last weekend 2 days later and i saw all that.

the bubbles are all round, probably not holding camera steady enough in that pic


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## Aaran (Sep 18, 2007)

right the big spots are water or something that has stopped the base adhering to the primer. (white spots are primer not sanding residue doors going all the way back this weekend (still got enough base to redo the car if needs be)

somehow the smaller spots i could see in the clear are gone (seem to be getting smaller every day)? will fire some proper heat with the infrared this weekend over a good few hours if they come back i know its water (heat will evaporate the moisture and make the paint pop out of lift off correct?)

gonna be a fun weekend not lol


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## pcm1980 (May 4, 2009)

If when flatting your basecoat u see white spots as you break through the paint layers, i would suggest that the problem is moisture in the primer. If it was me, i would flat beyond the primer to see if the problem still exist.
Good luck mate

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2


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## mr paint (Jul 11, 2009)

The only time i have had it was swapping from h/s to u/h/s clear put a wet coat down then allowed to tack of and put another 2 wet coats down ...this putting the equivilent to 6+ coats in normal m/s terms 

black again ...looked great ... let flash for 15 mins ...lights went off on the booth and onto bake she went ....opened the booth door and BANG solvent pop all over the car due to over application ... phoned my paint tec and he said 2 coats MAX ..

i had to resand the car with 400 on da then apply one wet coat of sealer(black) then re base 2 coats ... then 1.5 coats of clear ..was like glass 

WORD OF WARNING ...

If using infra red it must be MED OR SHORT WAVE these dry from inside out 
long wave that you get from argos etc will dry from outside in ... causing it to skin over and TRADaaa Solvent pop again ...


and if using infra red dont bake the panel after clear just leave to air dry for reasons mentioned above 

tommy


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## Aaran (Sep 18, 2007)

thanks for the info paint.

was just going to use the heater to heat the 5 week old paint and see if it pops, also be handy for making sure the primer when i lay it on the door after its a few days old is definitely dry before i apply the base. be nice to have it as its now getting to be silly cold, can remember assembling my crx last jan/fab in the nights and when it dropped to -16c in the pit , be nice to have some for of fast easy heat on the go so i can still feel my fingers lol.

will update tomorrow/sunday etc

got to go see a customer tomorrow about getting use of his booth to do the entire car again if it comes down to it (at least i wont have to fight with condensation/moisture in the air etc)


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## Andyb0127 (Jan 16, 2011)

If its moisture in the basecoat. Then it sounds like the problem will be with the compressor contaminating the paint, which if this is what's happened then it could also done the same to the epoxy primer and high build primer, which hope it hasn't.


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## squiggs (Oct 19, 2009)

Well I'd always been under the impression that solvent pop was caused by over heating causing the solvent to get trapped under an already hardened surface or by quite literally boiling the solvent - rather than gently heating and gradually increasing the heat allowing all the solvent to evaporate.
As you haven't baked it and only air dried (and if I'm correct) it can't be solvent pop. (But I don't know what it could be - other than moisture)


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## Aaran (Sep 18, 2007)

tis water guys.

got heater today, heated the car all over (section at a time and got the panels pretty warm, hotter than the car will get in the sun anyway) and nothing until that door and pop it went. got it back off the car and currently stripping it all the way back. been given a booth (well use of) if the weather does not improve (unlikely) so will make life much easier! 

cheers all , epic fail but beats having the entire car go pop! reacon its either a drops of moisture off the roof that landed on that door in the night/morning as it sometimes condensates first thing and it falls down, or its moistue in the gun when first used (between the filter and the gun) as that was pretty much the first thing i laid the base down on.

live and learn :lol: car is not leaving mine until its prefect!


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## moosh (May 8, 2011)

Gutted for you mate and fantastic you can limit the re work and know what it is now! 

Been a fantastic thread your re build so good luck :thumb:


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## Aaran (Sep 18, 2007)

well shizz happens and no use crying over it. rather now on a car i have a huge timeframe on and spare materials rather than on a car i need out within a tight deadline lol!

just brings it home that a booth will make life much easier for me as will a proper air supply system incorporated into it


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## squiggs (Oct 19, 2009)

Drain your tank periodically throughout the day and especially first thing and last thing, also drain your moisture trap whenever you get a break in spraying.
Before you start spraying run an air line tool for a while to get rid of any condensation that maybe between your moisture trap and the end of the air line.
Finally connect your gun to the line before filling your gun with paint and blow out any moisture that maybe in that.
Warm your panels before spraying to dry off any moisture.


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## pcm1980 (May 4, 2009)

Also try a devibiss whirlwind filter on bottom of spray gun, this should capture any moisture in your airline, only about a tenner and worth every penny. 

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2


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