# Is ONR gonna take over the world?



## Dave^

it seams that every question in relation to washing the car these days is answered with ONR!!!

i have loads of dg901, maxi sudds and others to use up before i buy any ONR (mainly incase i don't go back to 'normal' shampoo and end up with a garage full!), but i even find myself answering all 'which shampoo' / 'quick wash' etc questions with those three simple letters!!!

so, will other manufacturers of shampoo catch on and produce their own no rinse/waterless wash system? or if it a fad that will soon go away once the whole co2/energy efficiency malarky gets pushed back for the next goverment spin idea?


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## MidlandsCarCare

It's an absolute god send in this hot weather too - I did my Clio earlier and it took about 15 minutes, no dried on solution, 1 bucket, sponge and drying towel. Job done and to a very high standard.

I love the stuff. No hassle getting a pressure washer out, snow foaming etc.


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## Jochen

And what about a car that actually is dirty?


:lol:


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## HC1001

I'm getting a bottle soon so I'll make my mind up then, I'm sure it will help with my wash programme but I enjoy the whole PW/Foam, dry etc, Calms me down after a sh1te day at work. I am looking forward to giving it a try though after hearing Ross's review.


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## Ross

I am with Russ its a godsend no swirls what so ever.


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## parish

Hmm, curious. I tried it and couldn't get on with it (someone here bought it off me). Just seemed to have zero lubricity, even when used as clay lube.


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## Ross

parish said:


> Hmm, curious. I tried it and couldn't get on with it (someone here bought it off me). Just seemed to have zero lubricity, even when used as clay lube.


I thought the same as you it felt like a bucket of water but the amount of dirt it pulled into my wash media was amazing.


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## parish

RosswithaOCD said:


> I thought the same as you it felt like a bucket of water but the amount of dirt it pulled into my wash media was amazing.


I believe you when you say that it doesn't inflict swirls, but it appears to be defying the laws of physics to do so. I mean, no matter how high the quality of your MF or sheepskin mitt not all of the dirt will be held in the fibres, some of it will be in contact with the paint so you need plenty of lubrication to prevent, or a least greatly reduce, any damage, yet ONR appears to have no lubricating properties


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## Ross

I think the polymers in ONR encapsulate the dirt


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## mark-gts

i hate to say it but i never intend on buying onr for me i dont fancy it what so eve i prefer my pw and foam too much :thumb:


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## Oliscrim

I want to know how it works!! It must leave something on the bodywork that you dont want to be there!


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## Ross

No my car was super clean after using it and no streaking ect


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## Bigpikle

Jochen said:


> And what about a car that actually is dirty?
> 
> :lol:


its a shampoo - you can use it with a car that is filthy! Theres no magic or BS, its just a shampoo but the stuff thats in it doesnt need rinsing like the traditional cleaners in other shampoos...

I did the Audi today, in full sun, and it was minging. Mud all up the sides, sahara sand all over it from the last rain, and it hadnt been washed for several weeks. Came up spotless just like it would with any other quality shampoo.



Oliscrim said:


> I want to know how it works!! It must leave something on the bodywork that you dont want to be there!


it only leaves a little protection and extra shine, just like 901 and loads of other shampoos. I dry with a very light colour cloth and its always spotless - NO DIRT OR ANYTHING.

I dont get why people are anti this stuff???

Its just a shampoo - you can foam or rinse all you like before it if you want, but just save yourself the time and hassle (and water spots) of having to go round your car afterwards and rinse, and then have it all bake dry before you can get it properly towelled.


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## chrisc

so what is it how do you use it


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## MidlandsCarCare

Like you do any other shampoo, but you don't need to rinse it off - you dry straight away, doing a panel at a time.


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## supercharged

ONR isn't the end of the world. It is a big help when water is limited.


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## Bigpikle

chrisc said:


> so what is it how do you use it


from the sticky at the top of this section...

So, in brief the process is:

1. Pre-soak the dirty panels with a strong ONR solution via a garden pressure sprayer etc
2. Wring out your wash media so it's still wet but not pouring out wash solution when you lift it from the bucket
3. Wash a panel or section of bodywork, using the lightest pressure and rinsing your wash media frequently to remove accumulated dirt. Continue washing and rinsing until the panel is 100% clean. You should wash an area about 1" bigger than the area you intend to dry.
4. Make a first drying pass with your first drying towel and leave the panel slightly damp and being careful to only make contact with your washed area of paintwork - your drying towel will be 100% clean as the paint was washed clean with the ONR solution.
5. Spray on your QD or spray wax and buff off with your second MF towel.
6. Move on to the next panel or section and repeat the above steps.


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## MidlandsCarCare

Damon, I don't pre soak or do the QD part - what difference do they make?


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## Bigpikle

RussZS said:


> Damon, I don't pre soak or do the QD part - what difference do they make?


the pre-soak is only something I do when the car is pretty bad - like today when it was absolutely minging. It softens muck and starts the cleaning process. It can help with insects etc but something like the 1z anti-insect spray is better for this.

I always QD when I dry, to add a little bling/protection and also to lube the final drying pass. Up to you if you need to do that or not? ONR leaves a little behind so I find the finish looks like a 'just QD'd finish' anyway.


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## chrisc

so how does it differ from my aqua wax from autosmart i use after a wash as that helps it sheet off and give it a shine i cant see how doing this for every panel would save time.im a bit confussed.it dont take much


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## Neil_S

Not for me I am afraid, never could get on with it.

For me, hot weather means waiting til 8 PM when the sun is off the car and the panels are cool and getting out the foam lance.


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## Dave^

if it's just like any other shampoo, how come they create swirls where ONR prevents them?

i know it's all in the chemical makeup of the shampoo, but why can't ordinary shampoos been used in the same way as ONR and vice versa?


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## Neil_S

Dave^ said:


> if it's just like any other shampoo, how come they create swirls where ONR prevents them?
> 
> i know it's all in the chemical makeup of the shampoo, but why can't ordinary shampoos been used in the same way as ONR and vice versa?


I personally am not convinced I could get a swirl free result with ONR and thats a driver for me using a foam lance.

For me, reducing the amount of crap my mitt is going to come into contact with (foam) and limiting the amount I touch the car (filtered rinse) are the best things I find for washing.


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## Bigpikle

chrisc said:


> so how does it differ from my aqua wax from autosmart i use after a wash as that helps it sheet off and give it a shine i cant see how doing this for every panel would save time.im a bit confussed.it dont take much


ONR is a shampoo - you WASH with it, not spray it on after a wash.



Dave^ said:


> if it's just like any other shampoo, how come they create swirls where ONR prevents them?
> 
> i know it's all in the chemical makeup of the shampoo, but why can't ordinary shampoos been used in the same way as ONR and vice versa?


ordinary shampoos need rinsing, otherwise they leave stains on the paintwork. Try using 901 on a panel and not rinsing it off and you'll instantly see the difference.

I dont think ordinary shampoos cause swirls  Poor washing technique causes swirls and thats just as likely to happen with ONR as with a traditional shampoo. Keep rinsing your wash media, work small areas etc and you will minimise the chance of swirls. ONR just saves having a car that needs rinsing all over in hot sun etc.


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## Dave^

but if you're drying the car in the same manner as you would with onr, you wont get stains, or will you?

if you replaced ONR with a.n.other shampoo and used it in the same way, you WILL cause swirls..... especially with a sponge.... so ONR is not just a shampoo.... well, it is, but nothing like any of the others.....

otherwise, we wouldn't be spending a small fortune on mitts, extra buckets, pw's, foam lances etc....

please be aware, i'm not having a go at onr or any of its users.... i'm just intreagued!

we've all been brainwashed into extra buckets/snowfoam etc, and this is a total reversal of all the logic.....

:thumb:


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## parish

Bigpikle said:


> ONR is a shampoo - you WASH with it,


Well, I think I've had the wrong end of the stick over this.

So you use it just like you would any other shampoo - dunk a wash mitt in the bucket and wash a panel *without wringing the mitt out*?

I was thinking that you used it by dunking an MF in the bucket, then wringing it out so it was damp and wiping over the panel but this is not the way?

Do you still use the 2BM with it?


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## Bigpikle

Dave^ said:


> but if you're drying the car in the same manner as you would with onr, you wont get stains, or will you?
> 
> if you replaced ONR with a.n.other shampoo and used it in the same way, you WILL cause swirls..... especially with a sponge.... so ONR is not just a shampoo.... well, it is, but nothing like any of the others.....
> 
> otherwise, we wouldn't be spending a small fortune on mitts, extra buckets, pw's, foam lances etc....
> 
> please be aware, i'm not having a go at onr or any of its users.... i'm just intreagued!
> 
> *we've all been brainwashed into extra buckets/snowfoam etc, and this is a total reversal of all the logic.....
> *
> :thumb:


nope - not if you are careful. Many many people use sponges with standard shampoos with sponges all the time (I do) and have no issues. Its down to technique.

Shampoos need to be rinsed off, not wiped off like ONR. Shampoos leave suds and foam etc that need more than wiping to be removed, but the cleaners in ONR are different so dont cause smearing and leave NO residue behind.

Foaming etc is all going to help BUT its not the only way to do it. If the car is fairly dirty then still use 2 buckets as this is one of the most important ways to avoid swirls. You are right though. Up until now detailing websites have preached that the ONLY way to wash a car is cracking out your foam lance, using soft wool mitts and going through the whole process. Of course this helps, but with new products and innovations etc its not the ONLY way 

ONR is not a magic solution to swirls. You still need to be careful to make sure you dont pick up dirt and grind it in the paint etc, and you need to rinse your sponge frequently to help avoid this, but with care, you can achieve the same results as with foaming, rinsing etc etc.

If you watch my video you'll see how you use it. I'm still being just as careful as i would be if I had DG901 in my bucket, but just able to wash, dry and QD small areas at a time to avoid issues on days like today. I have even washed cars in garages with no issues :thumb:


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## chrisc

Neil_S said:


> Not for me I am afraid, never could get on with it.
> 
> For me, hot weather means waiting til 8 PM when the sun is off the car and the panels are cool and getting out the foam lance.


good advise i just couldnt wait this morning and sprayed my van with tfr.what a ****in **** up going to after get machine on it now it went from red to pink.best about it a knew it was going to happen and stll carried on tea time cleans from now on for my van.


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## Bigpikle

parish said:


> Well, I think I've had the wrong end of the stick over this.
> 
> So you use it just like you would any other shampoo - dunk a wash mitt in the bucket and wash a panel *without wringing the mitt out*?
> 
> I was thinking that you used it by dunking an MF in the bucket, then wringing it out so it was damp and wiping over the panel but this is not the way?
> 
> Do you still use the 2BM with it?


I squeeze out the sponge a fair bit so that is not pouring loads of wash solution all over the floor and car, but it still has a good bit of liquid in it when it hits the paint. Then wipe over once, picking up dirt etc, RINSE the sponge/mitt/cloth to remove dirt (as usual) and if the panel still has any dirt on it then go over again with clean wash solution. You go over the paint as many times as it takes to get it 100% clean before drying. Today the worst areas of the Audi needed 3 wipes/rinses before they were perfectly clean. THEN dry


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## parish

Bigpikle said:


> If you watch my video


Linky?



Bigpikle said:


> I squeeze out the sponge a fair bit so that is not pouring loads of wash solution all over the floor and car, but it still has a good bit of liquid in it when it hits the paint. Then wipe over once, picking up dirt etc, RINSE the sponge/mitt/cloth to remove dirt (as usual) and if the panel still has any dirt on it then go over again with clean wash solution. You go over the paint as many times as it takes to get it 100% clean before drying. Today the worst areas of the Audi needed 3 wipes/rinses before they were perfectly clean. THEN dry


Thanks - where did I get the idea that you wiped over the panel with a *damp* MF? Sure I've seen it done in a video (and no, not The Master Detailer :lol: )

I'm still baffled that ONR just doesn't seem to have any lubricating properties - not slippery, even the concentrate, like normal shampoo. Even Ross finds that too


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## Dave^

it's on page 2 pal!


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## mark-gts

what i want to know in videos it shows people doing one panel at a time is this the case or can the full car be done in one go then dried in one go if not i see it taking just as long as the tradtional two bucket wash for me....


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## Bigpikle

mark-gts said:


> what i want to know in videos it shows people doing one panel at a time is this the case or can the full car be done in one go then dried in one go if not i see it taking just as long as the tradtional two bucket wash for me....


you can use it as you want matey, but 1 panel at a time means NO water spots as nothing stays on long enough to dry. I have done half a car when its not warm.

Trust me, when you compare the time to get hoses out, PW's set up, foam mixes made, car foamed, left to dwell and rinsing etc and putting it all away, ONR takes about half the time. I had more than half a car done and dried and waxed before my companion even got his sponge on the car when we did a side by side. I was sipping coffee with a fully finished car while he was rinsing off and yet to clear up :lol:


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## Brazo

Well it didn't take over the world when I was using it like erm.. 3 years ago so no!


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## Ross

Bigpikle said:


> you can use it as you want matey, but 1 panel at a time means NO water spots as nothing stays on long enough to dry. I have done half a car when its not warm.
> 
> Trust me, when you compare the time to get hoses out, PW's set up, foam mixes made, car foamed, left to dwell and rinsing etc and putting it all away, ONR takes about half the time. I had more than half a car done and dried and waxed before my companion even got his sponge on the car when we did a side by side. I was sipping coffee with a fully finished car while he was rinsing off and yet to clear up :lol:


Thats what wins it for me I can do my whole car by the time it normally takes to just foam my car


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## Bigpikle

Brazo said:


> Well it didn't take over the world when I was using it like erm.. 3 years ago so no!


Mark - the new version is quite different (and improved) over the original. Yu may like it more now, having tried both and QEW


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## Ross

Damon I am going to help you with your quest your get people to use ONR:thumb: :lol:


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## Dave^

RosswithaOCD said:


> Damon I am going to help you with your quest your get people to use ONR:thumb: :lol:


send me some, i'll gladly give it a go.....

i'll swap you for twice as much turtlewax wash and wax...... :lol:


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## Ross

Dave I only got a sample from Damon but I will be getting a gallon soon


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## AndyC

I was on the fence until Saturday morning. Usual wash routine and the waterspotting was terrible. Stains down the entire passenger side of the Saab (OK only visible OCD close but still....) and it got me thinking. That said, I've stuck to lambswool mitt/TBM for 40k and the Saab still doesn't look exactly shabby but now might be the time to consider ONR more seriously.

The Pug's never been a problem as I never, ever wash it during hot sunshine (solid black = just not worth the risk) plus it has enough LSP to make bug removal a breeze with plain water via PW.

On the flipside I agree with Neil, as summer evenings on the driveway are kinda relaxing and, let's face it, pretty bloody rare.

So I reckon I may be slightly falling off the fence on the ONR side but it's the jump from what I KNOW works (for me) vs. the unknown and I think that could be the issue many of us are thinking about.

Hmmmmm......


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## Ross

I dont mind a bit of foaming action but you cant ignore ONR because its so quick easy and SAFE.


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## Mirror Finish Details

RosswithaOCD said:


> Dave I only got a sample from Damon but I will be getting a gallon soon


Wow Ross that is a commitment. Keep you going for some time that will.

I think it's a brill product and it has opened up new avenues of business for me. :thumb:

All I need to do is convince you to use opti seal now over your FK stuff. I can seal a car and walk away in 5 minutes. :thumb:


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## Ross

I have used Opti seal over FK 1000p looked great.A gallon is a must for me I have 4 cars to clean.


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## 03OKH

Interesting read. 

Where can you buy the hand held pressure sprayer used in the video?

Tony


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## -Ally-

03OKH said:


> Interesting read.
> 
> Where can you buy the hand held pressure sprayer used in the video?
> 
> Tony


http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/3L-ALL-PURPOSE-GARDEN-PRESSURE-SPRAYER-WEED-PEST-KILLER_W0QQitemZ190305556558QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Home_Garden_Garden_Plants_Fertiliser_CV?hash=item2c4f18584e&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1686|66%3A2|65%3A12|39%3A1|240%3A1318|301%3A0|293%3A1|294%3A50

for example, but garden centres, homebase, b n q etc all sell them or similar


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## Dave^

i've just ordered some anyway, sod it!!!!

i need to see for myself!!!

focus on the way home for a grout sponge!!!

anyone know if 'normal' spray bottles can be used to presoak, or it is too thick for them?


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## pdv40

As my pressure washer has just gone pop (again!) I may have to invest in some of this.


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## Neil_S

I'm sorry but the facts do not add up with ONR and swirling. People say it doesn't swirl, but in my experience you cannot judge that for many months as the Audi for example only had extremely minimal light swirling, but this had been induced over a period of 2 years, not overnight.

The thing that does not add up is, you have a dirty car with contaminents on the surface and you wipe the product to remove the dirt, technique aside, you have an increased risk of marring the paintwork as you are dragging dirt over the surface.

The whole reason I like foam is that it reduces the swirling risk because it removes alot of the surface contamination leaving only a film of dirt to remove.

Come back in 12 months and tell me your car is completely swirl free.


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## Mirror Finish Details

Neil_S said:


> I'm sorry but the facts do not add up with ONR and swirling. People say it doesn't swirl, but in my experience you cannot judge that for many months as the Audi for example only had extremely minimal light swirling, but this had been induced over a period of 2 years, not overnight.
> 
> The thing that does not add up is, you have a dirty car with contaminents on the surface and you wipe the product to remove the dirt, technique aside, you have an increased risk of marring the paintwork as you are dragging dirt over the surface.
> 
> The whole reason I like foam is that it reduces the swirling risk because it removes alot of the surface contamination leaving only a film of dirt to remove.
> 
> Come back in 12 months and tell me your car is completely swirl free.


Thats a challenge, but as most of my cars are in transit being a car dealer as well that may be hard to do. :wave:


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## BigLeegr

I've found that none of the rinseless washes work very well on winter conditions (salt film etc.) In fact the only rinseless wash that I've used with "good" results was SuPrimo. (It's intended for a spray and wipe application, but I found it too soapy for that. Diluted a bit more and applied with a mitt it seemed to work pretty well.)

I'm actually surprised that this brand isn't mentioned more on this site, seeing as it's available only in the UK and Australia, as far as I've seen. Granted, I have only a small amount, so I haven't used it very much (And it's not sold in Canada), so maybe there's some detriment that I've yet to see? Has nobody else here used it?

Back to the ONR option. I've found that it tends to bead up and roll off the car pretty easily, so it doesn't seem to get much of a chance to dwell even when sprayed on before using a mitt. I've used it an a slightly dusty car with ok results, but I never use it on a dirty car anymore. The couple times I did left marring on my black car. I'm thinking of using a regular shampoo to wash and then the ONR as the rinsing agent when I can't wash "normally." Haven't tried it yet, though.


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## spitfire

Neil_S said:


> I'm sorry but the facts do not add up with ONR and swirling. People say it doesn't swirl, but in my experience you cannot judge that for many months as the Audi for example only had extremely minimal light swirling, but this had been induced over a period of 2 years, not overnight.
> 
> The thing that does not add up is, you have a dirty car with contaminents on the surface and you wipe the product to remove the dirt, technique aside, you have an increased risk of marring the paintwork as you are dragging dirt over the surface.
> 
> The whole reason I like foam is that it reduces the swirling risk because it removes alot of the surface contamination leaving only a film of dirt to remove.
> 
> Come back in 12 months and tell me your car is completely swirl free.


This is the bit I don't understand either. With foam, the heavy loose particles are removed by gravity leaving a traffic film. Further use of the PW removes some of the traffic film and aids the removal of the heavier particles and that's before touching the paint with a shampoo and mitt.

Now from what I gather, ONR is used like a shampoo straight to the paint. I just can't get my head round how even the best of polymers can prevent the mitt from moving the heavy gritty particles against the surface. I just seems to much like a miracle. Like waving my hand in the air and erasing the clouds. Stupid analagy I know but that's what it seems like to me.

I'm not saying all you guys are wrong, just that I'm gonna take a hell of a lot more convincing.

As Neil says, swirls don't usually apear all at once. With carefull washing it's fair to say it takes many months. I wonder how many months for ONR  It may prove however that using ONR as a shampoo after a PW and snowfoam may be a way forward in the bigger scheme of things.


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## solarwind

Just started using ONR myself and think it is an excellent alternative.

I don't believe it will ever totally replace a shampoo and P/W blast on a really grimy car. There's no way I would use it to clean a filthy motor (as I'm not that confident), but as an _"in-between big washes" _it is top notch. I can go round the car in less than half an hour and the finish is very good.

I'm fortunate enough to park under a big lime tree, which means sap, bugs and bird crap on my car regularly:-










ONR seems to do the job, as breaking open the pressure washer every 2 days would be tedious, but mixing up a gallon of ONR takes seconds...

Very impressive stuff in my opinion. :thumb:


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## Dream Machines

It failed to impress me significantly. 
there are better systems IMO
Optimum unfortunately has never released a product that has wowed me so I add it to my workshop shelves. 
pity because david comes across as a great person with significant knowledge


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## VIPER

Like almost every detailing product, you'll either get on with it or you won't.

You learn to use what works best for you in this game (and those of you who, like me, have been at this for 10/15 years will concur with this.). No disrespect to the younger members or the recent converts to detailing but I always get the impression on here they can be easily led as DW has such a huge influence on newbies. As such I often think that some newcomers to this feel they need to be snowfoaming off even the the very lightest of dust particles on the car as it's seen as DW 'correct practice', when I'll bet the majority of the time it's not necessary and is done because either it's good fun, or to justify the outlay on all the associated kit.

A product like ONR, being such a radical departure from the traditional accepted way of washing is naturally going to polarise opinion on here, but I'd just ask people to keep an open mind about it until they've tried it and found it either does or doesn't work for them. If you find it doesn't work for you then fine - you're not 'wrong' and conversely those who have adopted it aren't 'right' or 'wrong' either. I don't think we want to get into a situation where someone is deemed to have an 'inferior' detailing technique depending on which side of the ONR 'Fence' they come down on .


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## Dream Machines

its just the product itself, not the product category that let me down


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## TOGWT

*Water restrictions*

In a (very) few more years the waterless wash will be the only way to wash vehicles. The environmental protection agency is going to continue to put restrictions to conserve our lessening water resources, which will put an end to traditional car washings methods.

*Disposal of Aqueous Solutions*

One should never assume that aqueous solutions can be disposed of down the drain. Your local water treatment authority or publicly owned treatment works will have information on treatment and disposal of these cleaners. Adjustment of pH and dilution are usually required before disposal to a drain. _Always comply with current water usage and disposal regulations / water usage restrictions_

[When you use 1 oz. of No Rinse in 1 or 2 gallons of water for your wash at the molecular level this provides hundreds of billions of polymer molecules to do what was said above. Additional product will not be necessary except if you are using tap water that contains high levels of minerals such as calcium hydroxide or silicates. In these cases some of the polymers will bond to these minerals and take them out of solution therefore more product might be necessary to compensate for this effect. This is another reason why adding No Rinse to regular car wash soap improves the results when using tap water. ] [David Ghodoussi - Optimum Research & Development ]

To remove stains the surface tension that bonds them must be released, then the stain encapsulated and held in suspension to be removed. ONR is an almost waterless wash that doesn't require rinsing, it's formulated with surfactants to keep dirt in suspension, avoiding surface contact; it also provides surface lubrication, thereby avoiding surface marring. A surfactant or surface active agent is a substance that, when dissolved in water, gives a product the ability to remove dirt from surfaces. They emulsify the dirt; the polymer protects the paint surface by forming a molecular bond, which remains even after the wash, offering protection comparable to that of a spray wax


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## gt5500

I think the only way this will take over the world is if someone starts doing samples of it. I know motorgeek do small bottles but it works out at almost a tenner with postage, too much for something many might not like. I want to try it and I am keeping an open mind however I have used QEW which is similar and hated it. Damon says ONR is much better which I am keeping open about but I am not really prepared to blow a tenner on it. Since you only need 1oz per wash it would be nice if they could make some sample sachets that could be posted out cheaply. As for the OP's original question, head over to Autopia, it seems its already got a pretty strong foothold there.


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## Dave^

well i ordered the 32oz bottle (again as above, will work out cheaper than a smaller bottle etc).

anyone local is welcome to an oz or 2 :thumb: (for a small fee/exchange etc  )

my car is quite dirty (in DW terms anyway) and it's a honda so soft paint....

but when it comes, i'll be trying it, probably on the bonnet first, to see if it does create any swirls etc. (it's only been washed two or three times since new, plus whatever the dealer washed it with before delivery - so there is a bit of swirling on there anyway, but certainly not enough to go polishing just yet)

i am getting a bit fed up with hauling the hose and pw out every weekend, and it takes longer to set up and pack up than it does to wash the damn thing....

can't wait for it now, lol!!!


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## AndyC

Tonight's project is to rig the hose up permanently so I never have to unwind it again (can be disconnected over the winter to prevent freezing of course); it's sort of stupidly simple really - why bother winding/unwinding when with some suitable clips I can fix it to my garden fence (private alleyway between garden and my garage) and never have to worry about it again.

And I will get some ONR too, just to keep it all in balance :wave:


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## Dave^

lol, not a bad idea.....

my hose reel bust during the week, and now pees water out everywhere, hose reels cost more than the onr! 

it's all on the garage floor at the min, along with the pw hose..... :lol: had a bit of a strop when packing it all away.... lol


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## Epoch

Does this mean my car shower design wash bay is going to be un popular on here soon ?


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## Mark M

Oh the hype!

It's not something I will use, as I wan't to minimise potential marks as much as possible.

I hear what you guys are saying, but I for one won't be hopping on this bandwagon.

One minute waterless wash is frowned upon, now its the solution of the gods...

If you don't want to lug the PW out, use a Gilmour. The cars are just getting dusty and bug splats.

Maybe for you guys when there is a hosepipe ban, this will be the next best solution.


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## gt5500

Mark M said:


> Oh the hype!
> 
> It's not something I will use, as I wan't to minimise potential marks as much as possible.
> 
> I hear what you guys are saying, but I for one won't be hopping on this bandwagon.
> 
> One minute waterless wash is frowned upon, now its the solution of the gods...
> 
> If you don't want to lug the PW out, use a Gilmour. The cars are just getting dusty and bug splats.
> 
> Maybe for you guys when there is a hosepipe ban, this will be the next best solution.


Thanks for the seriously closed minded comment, for a start we are not even discussing waterless washing and secondly its not just about saving water.


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## Dave^

Mark M said:


> One minute waterless wash is frowned upon, now its the solution of the gods....


but it's not waterless, just rinseless.....

you can still do the foam/rinse/2bm wash as you would now, but you don't need to rinse again after the 2bm wash....

i'll make my own mind up when it turns up.... look out for it in the 'for sale' section next week :lol:


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## Mark M

gt5500 said:


> Thanks for the seriously closed minded comment, for a start we are not even discussing waterless washing and secondly its not just about saving water.


Ok sour plums.

I think you will find we are discussing waterless washing, "ONR".

In addition, we are in the Eco Friendly section, and this is basically about not using water...

It may seem a closed minded comment, but I have watched a demo of a simialr system, and it marked the paint.

It is a case of each to their own, but don't go crying when you inflict some marks into your paint, wishing you had pulled the Gilmour out.

No matter how hard your paint is, it can still be scratched lightly. 
If very fine dust is sitting on your car, a wipe with a finger and you will marr it.

Yes, these waterless wash systems are designed to lift the dirt, but think about why we foam and rinse cars down before washing...to get rid of the potential contaminants that lead to marring.


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## Needs a clean

AndyC said:


> Tonight's project is to rig the hose up permanently so I never have to unwind it again (can be disconnected over the winter to prevent freezing of course); it's sort of stupidly simple really - why bother winding/unwinding when with some suitable clips I can fix it to my garden fence (private alleyway between garden and my garage) and never have to worry about it again.
> 
> And I will get some ONR too, just to keep it all in balance :wave:


Bizarre!! Thats what i am in the process of doing!!
Hose rigged up all the time, PW in place all the time. Cut the wash time down big style.


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## MidlandsCarCare

But it's not waterless - you need a bucket of water for the solution

I didn't think it'd work either, but it does... if the car's not too dirty


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## Dave^

RussZS said:


> I didn't think it'd work either, but it does... if the car's not too dirty


the thing that worries me, is what's classed as too dirty and what's not?

i saw the thread where the guy from overseas with the green seat washed his filthy car and it was fine, but using just onr, no foam/rinse etc over a period on a car that dirty must cause damage.....


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## Guest

Before pre-washes became popular, washing a car was a matter of a hose down to remove any loose debris and then the 2BM with a washmitt using light contact. This was always deemed a safe way to perform a swirl free wash.


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## gt5500

Mark M said:


> Ok sour plums.
> 
> I think you will find we are discussing waterless washing, "ONR".
> 
> In addition, we are in the Eco Friendly section, and this is basically about not using water...
> 
> It may seem a closed minded comment, but I have watched a demo of a simialr system, and it marked the paint.
> 
> It is a case of each to their own, but don't go crying when you inflict some marks into your paint, wishing you had pulled the Gilmour out.
> 
> No matter how hard your paint is, it can still be scratched lightly.
> If very fine dust is sitting on your car, a wipe with a finger and you will marr it.
> 
> Yes, these waterless wash systems are designed to lift the dirt, but think about why we foam and rinse cars down before washing...to get rid of the potential contaminants that lead to marring.


No again we are not discussing waterless washing, we are discussing rinseless washing which uses water just less of it. It may well be in the ECO section but the benefits of ONR are more then just saving water. In addition to your comment of watching a demo, many have watched Bigpikle demo ONR and have not witnessed any marring so that again is quite a closed minded comment. You also assume that it must marr paint becuase the other one you saw did. I don't mind if you don't like ONR for whatever reason but its not fair to make statements on a product you have never used based on opinion.


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## AndyC

Calm down chaps - I think the proof of the pudding will be in more people using it and reporting their findings. I do understand people's nervousness (self included) as it's a big departure from the tried & tested methods most of us use right now.

Will it become the norm? Hard to say TBH. Does it save water? Hell yes, when compared to hoses, PW's etc etc BUT (and it's a big one) if it's about saving water then *I've* simply cut back on how frequently my cars are washed. Maybe "un-DW" but with the weather this good, I'd rather be spending my free time with the family in the garden than sweating my nads off on the driveway :lol:

(which I know means ONR might make sense as it can take less time!!)


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## CupraRcleanR

I have a PW and hose already set-up at home which makes it a piece of cake to set-up.

ONR does not interest me as such for the whole of the car but maybe interested in it for lightly dusted wheels and door shuts. 

I usually clean the wheels 2-3 times a week in the summer so it could be usufull. Really don't fancy it on the paintowork tho. Brings me out in a cold sweat!

My thinking on the wheels is that I can clean them without the rust apearing on the disks and then the rusty ring on the inner rim after taking for a spin.


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## VIPER

I think another thing to consider here is water quality. Our water is shockingly bad, (we have to have a Brita for all consumed water in the house) and to add to that I get no shade at all during the day, even right into the evening so often have no option but to wash in the sun. Now with our 'water' (if indeed that's what it is? lol) and a regular kind of wash, I'd get endless horrible water spotting issues unless I was to invest in some kind of RO system or similar filter. 
There's just no way I could dry the whole car off before some rinse water started to evaporate and obviously the darker the car the worse the problem becomes.
This is what turned me onto ONR in the first place as being able to do a panel at a time is a godsend personally.


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## Dave^

living not too far from yourself, i can't say my water is THAT bad, but yeah, it is a bit crap!!

but i too have no shade from 10am to 6pm, and the neighbours wont appreciate me starting with the pw outside these times, plus the guy next door works nights, so i always feel guilty on weekdays making a racket before 2pm anyway (that's his getting up time)

also, i live at the top of a steep hill, so all my crap flows down the road past half a dozen houses, and i'm sure it wont be long before someone complains.....

it's horses for courses i guess.... it'll work for some, not for others....

i'm a right eager beaver now!!! hope it comes tomorrow!!!


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## MidlandsCarCare

Pit Viper said:


> I think another thing to consider here is water quality. Our water is shockingly bad, (we have to have a Brita for all consumed water in the house) and to add to that I get no shade at all during the day, even right into the evening so often have no option but to wash in the sun. Now with our 'water' (if indeed that's what it is? lol) and a regular kind of wash, I'd get endless horrible water spotting issues unless I was to invest in some kind of RO system or similar filter.
> There's just no way I could dry the whole car off before some rinse water started to evaporate and obviously the darker the car the worse the problem becomes.
> This is what turned me onto ONR in the first place as being able to do a panel at a time is a godsend personally.


Totally agree, especially in this weather when the car only seems to get dusty and not really dirty.


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## Neil_S

AndyC said:


> Calm down chaps - I think the proof of the pudding will be in more people using it and reporting their findings. I do understand people's nervousness (self included) as it's a big departure from the tried & tested methods most of us use right now.
> 
> Will it become the norm? Hard to say TBH. Does it save water? Hell yes, when compared to hoses, PW's etc etc BUT (and it's a big one) if it's about saving water then *I've* simply cut back on how frequently my cars are washed. Maybe "un-DW" but with the weather this good, I'd rather be spending my free time with the family in the garden than sweating my nads off on the driveway :lol:
> 
> (which I know means ONR might make sense as it can take less time!!)


No disrespect to people who want to save water, but I always think that companies such as thames water can make far more savings by fixing leaks than me switching to a rinseless wash. :thumb:


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## AndyC

Agreed Neil but that argument seems to have got a bit forgotten and for sure it irks me that *we* have to cut down on the use of a commodity for which we pay handsomely and yet the service provided is poor. However, perhaps an argument for another day??

As for water quality, I live on a dirty great big lump of chalk so hard water's the norm (even my 0 PPM filter struggles) and in direct sunlight AND hot weather it's a no-no - but like you said yourself, perfect excuse for relaxing evening car washing :thumb:


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## Dave^

Neil_S said:


> No disrespect to people who want to save water, but I always think that companies such as thames water can make far more savings by fixing leaks than me switching to a rinseless wash. :thumb:


you're not wrong! all the water used by everyone on here is a mere **** in the ocean....

(pun intended) :lol:


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## Ross

I dont think I would use it on a very dirty but it cleaned up my car which has a weeks worth of Dirt on it.


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## vortex114

Maybe its time for me to invest into this too.. Hmmm. not sure


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## crazycallum

Does anyone know if this is similar to ONR? http://www.seriousperformance.co.uk/Products,69,toView_414.html


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## Ross

It is I think.


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## Dave^

> Use 30ml of Quick & Easy Wash in a bucket with four litres of water for an average size car. Use 30-60ml per gallon for larger vehicles.


why would dilution ratio change as to the size of the car?


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## crazycallum

I'm gonna try the stuff from serious performance, its a bit cheaper and I shouldn't really be spending money on car stuff atm


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## Dave^

crazycallum said:


> I'm gonna try the stuff from serious performance, its a bit cheaper and I shouldn't really be spending money on car stuff atm


have you seen the 'Buy cheap, buy twice' thread?

not that i'm knocking anything that Alex sells, i get most of my stuff from him....

i'd email/pm him and ask for his opinion :thumb:


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## Bigpikle

crazycallum said:


> Does anyone know if this is similar to ONR? http://www.seriousperformance.co.uk/Products,69,toView_414.html


yep - I have a bottle. Its used the same way but has a couple of drawbacks:

1. you need a lot more product
2. the finish it leaves is not as nice as ONR

However as Alex has it on a big discount it makes a good buy :thumb:


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## Russ and his BM

RosswithaOCD said:


> I dont think I would use it on a very dirty but it cleaned up my car which has a weeks worth of Dirt on it.


I agree mate. Mine, sadly, gets minging because I haven't much time to keep it as clean as I'd like, so for a while I'l probably give ONR a miss. One day though, if after the hype has settled and people are genuinely convinced that swirls are not an issue with this stuff, and when my kids have grown just a little bit and when work isn't quite so manic, I'll plump for some.

I'm thinking about 2014 or therabouts. Patience is a virtue!!


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## Dave^

well my onr's turned up :thumb:

hopefully i'll be able to try it out tonight....


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## gt5500

Bigpikle said:


> yep - I have a bottle. Its used the same way but has a couple of drawbacks:
> 
> 1. you need a lot more product
> 2. the finish it leaves is not as nice as ONR
> 
> However as Alex has it on a big discount it makes a good buy :thumb:


Yeah I have to agree, I got a bottle of QEW on my last order from Alex and tbh I don't like it. I would also add that its very hard to get the car clean with QEW as it seems to leave dirt on the car in brown puddles. Part of the reason I am so nervous about buying ONR as part of me thinks it might be the same, although I take your word that its not. Anyone doing samples on ONR? the 6oz bottle from Motorgeek is too expensive with p&p for a punt IMO.


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## gt5500

Pit Viper said:


> I think another thing to consider here is water quality. Our water is shockingly bad, (we have to have a Brita for all consumed water in the house) and to add to that I get no shade at all during the day, even right into the evening so often have no option but to wash in the sun. Now with our 'water' (if indeed that's what it is? lol) and a regular kind of wash, I'd get endless horrible water spotting issues unless I was to invest in some kind of RO system or similar filter.
> There's just no way I could dry the whole car off before some rinse water started to evaporate and obviously the darker the car the worse the problem becomes.
> This is what turned me onto ONR in the first place as being able to do a panel at a time is a godsend personally.


And this is the exact same reason that I am so keen to use ONR, and indeed I believe a much bigger benefit of this product then saving water. People seem to get too caught up on the water saving aspect and ignore the other potential benefits. Sure some of you may like washing your cars at 2am or 11pm but I love washing mine on a nice sunny day.


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## AndyC

Fair point but on a nice sunny day I can think of 101 better things to do than wash the car TBH. My other concern is that, having spent hours detailing every last nook & cranny on the 205 and then finding some more to polish, I'm extremely nervous about potentially undoing that hard work. As an example, I spent 2.5 hours each on the bonnet and each driver's side panels just to get it "right" and I'd happily stick to a more longwinded wash routine and/or wash at night than risk mucking that up.

But I do still see your point :thumb:


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## Jim W

Just had my first go with ONR - boy I didn't enjoy that 

A couple more attempts needed before I can come to any conclusions.


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## VIPER

Jim W said:


> Just had my first go with ONR - *boy I didn't enjoy that *
> 
> A couple more attempts needed before I can come to any conclusions.


Was it just getting over the phsycological part of it, Jim?


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## Bigpikle

didnt enjoy my first time either.......with ONR 

tell us more


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## gt5500

AndyC said:


> Fair point but on a nice sunny day I can think of 101 better things to do than wash the car TBH. My other concern is that, having spent hours detailing every last nook & cranny on the 205 and then finding some more to polish, I'm extremely nervous about potentially undoing that hard work. As an example, I spent 2.5 hours each on the bonnet and each driver's side panels just to get it "right" and I'd happily stick to a more longwinded wash routine and/or wash at night than risk mucking that up.
> 
> But I do still see your point :thumb:


Yeah and I hear your concerns but Damon and a few other have not found it is any more likely to undo your polishing work then any other type of cleaning. I know it seems that it should cause damage and it sounds like snake oil that it doesn't but surely if it did someone would have noticed by now. As I said already if you ask about it on Autopia they will think we are living in the dark ages for not using, it is used by a lot of the pros on there.


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## Jim W

Pit Viper said:


> Was it just getting over the phsycological part of it, Jim?


hmm, I think so!



Bigpikle said:


> didnt enjoy my first time either.......with ONR
> 
> tell us more


Whay!! :thumb:

Ok. I know now I need a different wash media.. I tried with a MF sponge thing at first, but, nah. Lambswool had to make due, however, I see what people mean RE the dirt being hard to release.

FULL sun. Like, yeah, very hot! So much so the pre-spray QD ONR was steaming on the panels.. felt a bit guilty at this stage and thought I was in trouble.

So. Lambswool into 1oz to 2G mix of ONR.. solution rinsed so that it isn't dripping from the mitt. Worked small sections at a time with very minimal pressure. Return to rinse bucket and pick up my first drying towel. (big fluffly miracle drier).

Pat dried the area worked and went for the second waffle-weave towel to follow it up (as everyone else seems to be doing.)

I didn't enjoy the second drying stage.. the panels were too hot, I didn't want to be gliding anything across there.. not even some QD and a towel.

In the end, I gave up with the second drying pass - some two, three passes with ONR on the cleaning stage then to blot/pat dry the area with the Miracle drier. Seemed to do the job.

For reasons unknown, I left the roof till last(?). Obviously this left some small splashes onto the lower sections of the car - only these areas showed any signed of watermarks. Some QD and they were gone.

The principle/idea/logic, yes, I like. Still took me quite some time, but I will only become more familar with it as time goes by.

Quite shocking to think also about the amount of water I would normally use. Atleast 5gallon in each of my two buckets, then theres the rinse/pre-wash/rinse stages. In this respect alone, it has certainly opened my eyes.

Time to read more/watch more/learn more. Alloys, arches, under the skirts etc.. It will come in time.

Thanks.

EDIT - if anyones ever passing by Newark and fancies spending half hour with me on this, you're more than welcome :thumb:


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## AndyC

gt5500 said:


> As I said already if you ask about it on Autopia they will think we are living in the dark ages for not using, it is used by a lot of the pros on there.


Isn't that due to imposed water use restrictions in some areas of the USA though? California/Florida etc?

And many of the pro's on here won't touch it which makes me even more concerned. I guess I need to convince myself and order some!


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## gt5500

AndyC said:


> Isn't that due to imposed water use restrictions in some areas of the USA though? California/Florida etc?
> 
> And many of the pro's on here won't touch it which makes me even more concerned. I guess I need to convince myself and order some!


Not all of them, many use it because of its other benefits. Also the fact that many pro's on here won't use it doesn't mean diddly to me because I doubt even half of them have even tried it. So for I have seen people post videos showing that it doesn't cause any more marring then convetional wash techniques. I have also seeen people saying it must cause more marring but strangely none of these claims are backed up with any evidence. If anyone can prove that it does do more damage then lets see it, might stop some of the debate. Equally I would love to see some solid proof of any wash technique that causes no marring because I am sure all of them do to an extent. Maybe you could try a sample of it and see how you get on, I know until I try it I am keeping open minded.


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## AndyC

Same here to an extent but I respect the opinion/experience of several of the pro's in the UK who've expressed negativity; they may not have tried ONR but they have used similar products in the past. 

I can get a marr free wash using foam, filtered water and my CG blower, needing only some "blotting" of any excess water droplets - if I can achieve similar with ONR then I'm convinced, if not then it won't get used again.

In fact perhaps I'll just order some - judging by the hype (and that's not meant negatively) if I can't get on with it, it'll sell here in a flash.


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## Dave^

if you wait a couple of hours, you can buy mine off me.... :lol:


got my sponges, they're soaking now (they're a bit 'firm' new!)


big black cloud overhead..... just waiting for SWMBO to bring it home from work and i can get cracking!!!


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## Katana

I had my second go with ONR on monday morning, 11am, sun blazing.
Used 2BM with megs lambwool mitt and a miracle dryer towel.
Found it much better second time around since i knew what i was doing straight away, wash a couple of panels, dry them off, take a break, repeat till car is done.
This is great for me, being able to take breaks makes washing much easier on my muscles/joints, and because there is no rinisng i also don't have to lug more buckets downstairs to rinse off, since using a hose isn't an option where i live.

I think i might buy some grout sponges or a Z sponge since my mitt is now stained grey/black, also not very impressed with the miracle dryer, it tends to not dry completely and leave streaks that i have to clean up with dryer MF cloth, might go back to my poorboys ww towel.


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## Jim W

Katana said:


> I think i might buy some grout sponges or a Z sponge since my mitt is now stained grey/black, also not very impressed with the miracle dryer, it tends to not dry completely and leave streaks that i have to clean up with dryer MF cloth, might go back to my poorboys ww towel.


I used the exact product line up to you yesterday, 12am, again, blazing heat.

The Lambswool isn't great for the job - I too will be buying something new.

But I found the miracle dryer worked fine? I blotted the area straight away after the cleaning - never swiped or put across the panels. With the towel folded, it was nice a clumpy and seemed well up to the job at hand.

Have you washed yours recently?


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## Dave^

Jim W said:


> I used the exact product line up to you yesterday, 12am, again, blazing heat.
> 
> The Lambswool isn't great for the job - I too will be buying something new.
> 
> But I found the miracle dryer worked fine? I blotted the area straight away after the cleaning - never swiped or put across the panels. With the towel folded, it was nice a clumpy and seemed well up to the job at hand.
> 
> Have you washed yours recently?


12am? blazing heat?

bet it was dark tho eh?

sorry...


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## MidlandsCarCare

Definitely get a Grout Sponge from B&Q guys - make things a lot easier - the key is rinsing clean after each panel, something which is very tough with a mitt.


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## Dave^

RussZS said:


> Definitely get a Grout Sponge from B&Q guys - make things a lot easier - the key is rinsing clean after each panel, something which is very tough with a mitt.


now you see, having used mitts for 3yrs+ i found it really awkward holding onto the sponge, and it wasn't very comfortable....

do the schmitts and 2ym0l sponges fit like a glove, literally? lol


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## Katana

The schmitt is a glove type, the Z sponge is just a normal non-silicone sponge i think.
I'm going to pick up some B&Q grout sponges when i'm out later, i'll see how they go when i do another wash in a couple of weeks.

By the way, how many washes are the grout sponges good for, so i know when to chuck them.

I'm curious if anyone has tried the schmitt with ONR to see how it compares with a wool mitt/grout sponge, as i prefer having a glove type one, not worried about accidently dropping it that way, though taking a mitt off on every panel to dry is a bit of a hassle, so maybe the sponge is the way to go for this technique.


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## Dave^

Katana said:


> though taking a mitt off on every panel to dry is a bit of a hassle, so maybe the sponge is the way to go for this technique.


yer true.... probably right.....

i picked up 2 grout sponges, they seam to rinse as clean as new, so i guess they'll last as long as a mitt would with 'normal' shampoo....

added bonus being £1.30 each too :thumb:


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## Katana

Just picked up a couple of tile sponges from B&Q.
I think i only ever washed my car with a sponge once and then i couldn't be arsed anymore and didn't wash my car for about 15 months, during which time i found this place and used a mitt with 2bm when i finally did, so using a sponge again should be interesting.

Bigpikle, was just looking at your grout sponge v2 thread, how deep did you cut the sponge, doesn't specify in the thread.


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## MidlandsCarCare

I haven't cut mine, and I haven't had any problems.

I think he cuts about halfway in though, based on what I saw.


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## Dave^

RussZS said:


> I haven't cut mine, and I haven't had any problems.
> 
> I think he cuts about halfway in though, based on what I saw.


eh, who, what, how?

lol - what's this then? totally missed this bit.....?


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## Katana

Here's the thread Dave^
Grout Sponge v2...


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## Dave^

cheers!


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## ianrobbo1

just got in from using my ONR, what can I say!!!! anyone want some snow foam?? this stuff is brilliant, did the whole car in about ten mins (ok only a Corsa) but no swirls and the crap it took off I couldnt belive!!:doublesho I think we have a winner!!:thumb:


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## Bigpikle

Katana said:


> Just picked up a couple of tile sponges from B&Q.
> I think i only ever washed my car with a sponge once and then i couldn't be arsed anymore and didn't wash my car for about 15 months, during which time i found this place and used a mitt with 2bm when i finally did, so using a sponge again should be interesting.
> 
> Bigpikle, was just looking at your grout sponge v2 thread, how deep did you cut the sponge, doesn't specify in the thread.


scalpel and a metal rule....

not sure it has really made any difference to performance (how could you tell realistically?) but thought it worth an experiment. My original v2 sponge almost died last weekend at the DW meet when it finally split, but it lasted a lot of washes.

Not sure if I'll bother to cut the replacement or try something else this time :lol:


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## DIESEL DAVE

Bigpikle said:


> Not sure if I'll bother to cut the replacement or try something else this time :lol:


I`ve been having great success with a well rinsed waffle weave MF


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## ianrobbo1

bought a pack of grouting sponges from B&Q today, just finished cutting aka v2 :thumb: will be playing tomorrow, still well impressed with the finish the ONR has left!!


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## Ross

I have a gallon of ONR coming.


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## Dave^

ianrobbo1 said:


> bought a pack of grouting sponges from B&Q today, just finished cutting aka v2 :thumb: will be playing tomorrow, still well impressed with the finish the ONR has left!!


my car's beading quite well :thumb: love it!!!


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## Ross

Dave^ said:


> my car's beading quite well :thumb: love it!!!


What did I say:lol:


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## Jim W

Second attempt today - I reaally don't like using ONR. Can't get my head around it. 
I want to, I really do. But, I can't.

Found myself a grout sponge today and used that.. easier to rinse than a mitt, but, just so un-natural and goes against everything one has ever learnt! lol


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## Ross

It dose feel wrong but I found NOT to put swirls into my paint.


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## DIESEL DAVE

Jim W said:


> goes against everything one has ever learnt! lol


Not really, look at it another way you could have learned something new


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## Mirror Finish Details

Is also great for getting bug bodies off the car, I keep some ONR in a little spray bottle now.


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## Ross

I am hoping my gallon turns up tommorow.


----------

