# 2004 Clio - rust in off-side rear wheel arch



## Rakti

Only discovered recently that rust in the fuel flap is a problem on the Clio II, probably due to only having a part wheel arch liner.

Took the wheel off and removed the liner today and found this after spraying/rinsing Surfex at 20%;



















This is near the fuel flap securing bolts;









Slightly higher up than above picture and close up









Looks pretty desperate to me. Have I left it too late to rescue?

I'll take another picture of the outside of the open fuel flap tomorrow (forgot).


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## SadlyDistracted

Euk, I feel for you, looks like a nasty bit of car cancer and tha'ts not readily accessible, sorry to see such :-(

Seems like a bit of disassembly of the pipes etc 
then a good flap-wheel / wire brushing or some form of sand/grit blasting if you're lucky enough know anyone with such, 
then a rust converter of choice, deox/fertan/dinitrol rc/phosphoric acid to attempt a 'cure' (respite), 
followed by a repainting a 2k epoxy / phosphate primer would be the way I'd look to go, no doubt others may have a better resolution to recommend.


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## Rakti

Thanks SD

Here's the pictures of the outside of the fuel flap;


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## Rakti

Today, I had the other side off (16 mile round trip to my mum's driveway, as I don't have one). Not far off being as bad as the off-side. Makes a mockerey of all that seam sealant nearby.




























Side of the wheel arch opposite the rust. That's a big lump of mud wedged in bottom left.


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## Harry_p

Not a nice find.

Unfortunately, as I'm sure you will have worked out, a proper cut out and replace job on those areas would probably cost more than the car is worth.

But like all these things, it depends how much it means to you and how long you intend keeping it.

Mechanically removing as much as you can, wire wheel, sanding, rust remover etc, then treating with a rust converter before coating should get you a good few more years out of it.


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## Rakti

Thanks Harry. Appreciate your reply.

It's 20 years since I last battled with rust on a car. I'm wondering whether I should attempt an initial repair with the old school products I already have, as it'll take me a while to get up to speed with the new-tech available today, source products and learn how to use them . Also, this is not a good time of year to do this, with low temperatures (bad for paint drying) and darkness setting in by 4pm.

What I have is;

Wire brushes
Wire brush drill attachments
Plenty of emery cloth
Several grades of Wet N Dry (80 up to 600)
Trustan Extra rust treatment (a Decosol product)
















A small tin of Grey zinc primer (brush on)
Brushes

Is it feasible for me to try using these products now? Will they at least slow down the rate of rusting until say March/April?


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## Harry_p

I can't see it doing any harm trying what you have first. You are right, it's not the ideal time of year for it. Some gentle heat with a hot air gun or hair drier will help the chemicals work and your paint cure.

Even just scraping off what you can and coating with hamerite or similar as a temporary method until the weather improves would help as a big problem is that the rust itself is porus and will hold moisture and make it continue to spread.


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## Dipesh

I would be using bilt Hamber products on that. Only concern is that if there is any rust under the sealer. If there is, you could be wasting your time as you won't have got it all.


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## Christian6984

I have to admit even though the car is getting on a bit, im surprised. The French cars dont seem to suffer rust as bad as some brands when they age. My dad has a Berlingo van on a 2007 and it is very decent condition from what i can see. Even my mum's 2002 Citroen C3 doesn't again have anything too nasty without crawling underneath and a fine inspection. both of them have at least 120k miles on. 

Ford on the other hand, had two fiesta. both 2007's and the first had a 160k on when it was written off and had lived in Cumbria and Yorkshire before i got it, it was relatively solid with little rust. The second is a one owner and has lived in scotland for its first 12 years and underneath is not as good nick as the first and this one has half the miles on. I when i got it MOT'd this year i got my mechanic to spray the entire underside with Hydraulic Oil (doesn't perish rubber parts), Plan is to only keep it a few years hopefully will get me through if i get it done each year as didn't charge me much for it. its a messy job and knows how clean i like the car, he said leave it so its dirty to stop the overspray getting on the paint on the lower panels. Thankfully was little wind that day and dry. 

Could always try the bilt hamber products first i have used them and they are good. Then after get some form of oil or grease or something on it to try and prevent it getting any worse. I dont know the mileage of the car but it wont be worth a lot now and getting to the point where great expense isnt economical anymore. This is why the C3 is going this year as its served us well but one big bill and its off for scrap


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## BarryAllen

Christian6984 said:


> I have to admit even though the car is getting on a bit, im surprised. The French cars dont seem to suffer rust as bad as some brands when they age. My dad has a Berlingo van on a 2007 and it is very decent condition from what i can see. Even my mum's 2002 Citroen C3 doesn't again have anything too nasty without crawling underneath and a fine inspection. both of them have at least 120k miles on.
> 
> Ford on the other hand, had two fiesta. both 2007's and the first had a 160k on when it was written off and had lived in Cumbria and Yorkshire before i got it, it was relatively solid with little rust. The second is a one owner and has lived in scotland for its first 12 years and underneath is not as good nick as the first and this one has half the miles on. I when i got it MOT'd this year i got my mechanic to spray the entire underside with Hydraulic Oil (doesn't perish rubber parts), Plan is to only keep it a few years hopefully will get me through if i get it done each year as didn't charge me much for it. its a messy job and knows how clean i like the car, he said leave it so its dirty to stop the overspray getting on the paint on the lower panels. Thankfully was little wind that day and dry.
> 
> Could always try the bilt hamber products first i have used them and they are good. Then after get some form of oil or grease or something on it to try and prevent it getting any worse. I dont know the mileage of the car but it wont be worth a lot now and getting to the point where great expense isnt economical anymore. This is why the C3 is going this year as its served us well but one big bill and its off for scrap


That's twice in fortnight I've read baout Renault's not rusting... we must have a bad set.

Daughter has a a 07 Clio... MOT advisory on severe corrosion both front and rear shock absorbers... and there more than light rust on front subframe / radiator bracket.

And worse still.. the 15 plate Captur that the wife has is bubbling up on the bottom inner edge of the tailgate. Gave it a press at the weekend and beige fluid shot out.. so that will need something done to it in the warmer weather.


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## Rakti

Having a go at this tomorrow.

Plan is;

1. Buy some Stainless Steel button-head screws (and matching nuts and washers) to replace the rivets holding the black plastic fuel filler surround, as these will need drilling out to remove the surround in order to access the outside and inside for de-rusting and painting.

There are some threads on the Cliosport forum but no-one seems to confirm whether M6 or M8 bolts are needed, so I may have to drill one of the rivets out to see what size hole is left. Thinking that either 10mm or 12mm screws should be long enough.

2. Need some new Penetrating Oil as my Plusgas spray has failed (with at least 25% left in). I plan to soak the threads of the bolts (inside the wheel arch) holding the fuel flap on before trying to release them. Most people seem to have had to drill them out though, so not too hopeful.

3. After removing the wheel and part wheel arch liner, wire brush all the rusted areas (inside the arch and on the fuel filler outside).

4. If more rust needs removing, rub down with coarse and medium Wet N Dry.

5. Apply rust treatment (see earlier post).

6. Hope at this stage I don't need any surface filler, then paint with grey zinc primer. This is the stage where I might not be using the best products available but the priority is to decelerate (I won't say stop) the rusting process. 

Let's see if I even get as far as 6 tomorrow.


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## Christian6984

best of luck and hope it is going well, Before you mentioned the Captur i would say it would be hard for me to judge. I sold the last clio in 2004, still going as sold it to a work colleague's family member. Mine where an 2008(facelift) and 2003. I also didnt keep either past about 45k miles.

I was quite surprised by my sisters megane, she drove the back end into the corner of the house and was a good year before it got sold and showed signs getting much worse


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## Rakti

Typed a Day 1 report last night, then went into Preview Post, made some changes and then must have forgotten to save 

In short, it didn't go well, in particular, step 1, drilling out the rivets. Not as straightforward as it sounds it seems but maybe because I was under a mis-conception about using HSS drill bits to drill steel (or maybe aluminium in this case, as a lot of rivets seem to be). I always thought High Speed Steel meant use the highest speed on your drill. My ancient inherited drill has settings for 900 rpm and 2700rpm, so I've always thought High Speed = 2700rpm.

Not so, if you read this very useful website;

https://www.diydoctor.org.uk/projects/drilling_metal.htm

In fact, he recommends only 700-1000 rpm for mild steel, faster for aluminium. I also didn't know about the all important lubrication.

So, on Day 1, I drilled one rivet, and badly:lol: Also made a start on the top left rivet.

Top right with a button bolt (allen key head) and washer showing.









I did also manage to loosen the nuts holding the fuel flap on though.


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## Rakti

Day 2

Using 3 in 1 oil for lubrication and slower speeds (my ancient drill from my dad seems to have useful variable speed on the trigger, which I didn't realise) I managed to drill out the other two rivets. I was more gentle this time and worked up from 2.5mm, 3mm , 4mm and finally 5mm which saw the rivet heads shear off. I was then able to punch the rivets through the back of the panel.

Next I unscrewed the two T20 Torx bolts which hold the filler neck to the plastic filler surround, without too much trouble. I did use a long T-bar and short bar to give myself the best chance of success though.

Here's fuel pipe released from the filler surround









Now then, on to the right bugger of the top bolt holding the fuel flap on. Now I said on Day 1 I'd managed to release both nuts inside the wheel arch, which was true. What I hadn't realised was that applying the necessary torque to release top nut had caused the plastic casing in which the bolt sits to fracture at the top. When I try to unscrew the nut, the bolt just turns with it and won't release :wall:

....so, the current sub-project is to drill a hole in the bolt head to try and force a T10 Torx bit into the head so I can unscrew it from the nut (no room to use a hacksaw to cut a slot in it for a screwdriver). See below;









Any advice on how to proceed greatly appreciated.


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## Rakti

Day 3

Drilled the top bolt to 2.5mm (had to go out to get new bits as the Aldi HSS ones I had just dont cut even soft metal) and banged in the T10 Torx. Got a few turns of the nut at the back but the torque being applied on the Torx bit just got too much for it and it began to slip. Tried banging the bit in a little deeper. That worked for a while, turning the nut clockwise and anti-clockwise, but the Torx bit started to slip again when turning anti-cclockwise.

Had to leave it at 3pm, so all in all a fruitless day, bearing in mind I have to jack up the car, remove the wheel and fuel pipe retainer each time, then put it all back to return home.

I can either try again with the T10 or bore out bigger and try a fatter Torx bit. T15 measures 3.27mm point-to-point, so a 3mm bit might work; on a pre-formed Torx bolt T15 can take almost x2 Torque compared to T10.

Failing that I'll be faced with having to try a cut-down hacksaw blade in a very confined space after drilling out as much of the head as possible.


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## Christian6984

bit unsure from your description whats stopping it coming out, is there a nut on the inner side you have to hold with a spanner while unscrewing it? 

if you want a flat slot for a screwdriver, could you get a multitool blade on the nut, not the easiest on metal i would imagine


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## Rakti

Christian6984 said:


> bit unsure from your description whats stopping it coming out, is there a nut on the inner side you have to hold with a spanner while unscrewing it?
> 
> if you want a flat slot for a screwdriver, could you get a multitool blade on the nut, not the easiest on metal i would imagine


Yes, the nut is on the inside of the wheel arch. It's the nut that you have to undo.

The head of the bolt that the nut is on is housed in a recess in the plastic fuel flap hinge. It's the one at the top in this picture;










or here with the fuel pipe surround removed;









Theoretically, the bolt is supposed to hold still while the nut is removed but the plastic has split at the top and is no longer holding the bolt head when you try to turn the nut. I drilled a 2.5mm hole in the bolt head and banged on a T10 Torx bit and tried to hold the bolt while I unscrewed the nut. It worked for maybe 1/2 a turn or more but the nut is tight on the thread (having never been off for 15 years) and then the Torx bit stopped holding it.

Yes, it may be possible to use a multi-tool to cut a slot in the bolt head (not the nut). You'd probably cut into the plastic housing as well though, in which case you may as well cut some of the plastic housing off on two opposite sides and hold the bolt with a spanner.


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## Rakti

Day 4

Tried to bore out the hole in the bolt head a bit deeper as I don't think all of the T10 bit was gripping in the hole. My antique power drill with variable speed trigger packed up due to a deteriorated power cord where it enters the drill.

I stupidly tried to drill with my partner's single speed drill and the bit quickly broke (too fast) and was stuck in the hole, so I decided to chisel off the plastic around the nut.

I could then easily hold the bolt head while trying to loosen the nut; it soon sheared off I've wasted so much time on that bolt; I should have just cut it straight away!

Here's the opening with the flap removed









here's the inside area where the flap hinge connects before and after wire brushing
















I'm thinking of waiting until next week now and ordering a Multi-tool on line. I just think it could be perfect for the job. Using wet n dry on the flat sections should be fine but on the curved sections its going to be difficult. It will also be hard to reach some of the upper sections with hand held abrasives (above the fuel flap area) where the bodywork curves round.


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## Rakti

Been talking to the top man at Bilt Hamber (see manufacturers forum) about what to use on the rust, then decided to have a good look at the rest of the car, in particular the front arches, before I commit to an expensive rustproofing attempt.

Looking down the left (passenger) side;


















A big wedge of mud had lodged between wing and liner (bottom corner)
























Stubborn mud that wouldn't come off completely after several applications of 20% Surfex


























Proper rust on the headlight mounting bracket









Looking down the centre from the rear









Right hand (drivers) side














































Again, rust on the headlight bracket









So, in general, the rest of the underbody is in good order. Those headlight brackets are the main problem at the front. Ideally, they need to come off and soak in a Deox-C solution. I guess the wings would have to come off but I can't see those rusted bolts undoing, so it may involve cutting them off/drilling out. I may think about leaving them in situ and seeing whether I can get some Deox-Gel on, then a bit of Electrox.

I have a better idea what to order from BH now.


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## Rakti

Some more cleaning of the front wheel arches today.

Started with the arch liners
































Left hand arch








Plenty of tar on the uncovered section, which I'll clean off next week. Some small patches of surface rust just below the yellow thing. You can see them better on 4th picture posted yesterday.









This strut was replaced about 4 years ago, which is why it looks better than the other side.

Driver's side. Some surface rust just above one of the holes for the fir-tree fastener needs treating.









No rust here









The main issue at the front is the headlight brackets. No idea why these are rusting. They don't seem very exposed. I didn't get any better pictures than yesterday (lighting issue). Ironically the horn bracket is unpainted, probably passivated steel and is in perfect condition. Opinions about what I should do with these. Had another look and doing anything at all without taking the front wings off would be impractical.


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## Rakti

Day 5

Wire brushed the minor rust in the front wheel arches shown on post #19, then applied BH Dynax S50 until I can apply BH Deox-gel which requires +10 degrees C;

Before and after - driver's side
















































Before and after - passenger side
















I'll be moving back to the rear arches tomorrow.


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## Rakti

Day 6 (yesterday 05/02/20)

After wire brushing (left).............then Dynax S50 (right) (click full screen)


























































Back of the fuel flap area, but the light fading so can't see much after Dynax applied
















Outside of the fuel flap Jan 15th then yesterday after wire brushing


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## Rakti

Day 7

Replaced the front wheel arch liners and had another go at cleaning up the stubborn dirt on the backs of the front alloys while they were off; wheel cleaner, tar remover, fall-out remover. Tried Wonder Wheels for 5 mins on the worst of the front wheels - did a bit but not a lot.


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## Rakti

Just a reminder of where this was up to; loose rust was wire brushed and BH Dynax S50 applied until the warmer weather necessary (min 10 degrees C) for BH Deox-Gel.

Well, by last Sunday, I thought that by the end of April, consistent warmer weather was more likely esp as we'd had a few weeks of a warm early spring. How wrong could I have been! We've since had days where 10 degrees has barely been seen during the day and 6 or 7 has been the norm at night.

*Day 8 - 27/04/20*
So, after spending quite a bit of time clearing off the S50 (advise using neat Surfex not 20% as I started off with) I applied Deox-Gel to the near-side wheel-arch rust.

Unfortunately, I'd stupidly not read the instructions on the bottle (not shown on the Data Sheet) and had kept the Deox-Gel in the loft (I don't have a garage or a shed). When the outside temperatures are consistently warm it gets really hot in there. As a result, the Deox-Gel was difficult to work with and I couldn't get an even layer to stick to the panel.

Here's a photo before covering with cling-film;










The next set of dilemmas were a) would the Deox-Gel be any better once left in a cooler place, b) when would the temperatures recover to allow another layer of gel to be applied and do I leave what I've got on (to protect the metal) until that date, having removed the S50.


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## Rakti

Day 9 - 01/05/20

Took the cling-film away and brushed and washed the area down. Took a photo but my phone threw a wobbler (Google Photo stopped working) and that photo is lost. Still lots of rust not removed, so I've applied another layer of Deox-gel. I'll try Method 1 on the Data Sheet this time which involves agitating the area with a wire brush while the gel is in situ.

Here's a photo of 2nd application of Deox-gel applied at 14:00;










Edit:
Agitated with wire brush at 17:30, washed off at 18:30 resulted in this;










Close up of the top section









Still some way off the Electrox stage


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## Rakti

Day 10 - 03/05/20
Re-applied Deox-Gel

Day 11 - 05/05/20
Removed Gel and scrubbed but still left with this;

01/05 (as above) followed by 05/05
















Little improvement

Day 12 - 06/05/20
Re-applied Deox-Gel

Day 13 - 08/05/20
Removed Gel and scrubbed but still left with this;

05/05 followed by 08/05
















A very small improvement. I'm now quite disheartened.

Re-applied Deox-gel at 13:40 today, without covering with clingfilm;









Will agitate at 15:40 and leave till 16:40 before washing off and taking another look.

At 13:40 and 17:50















Doesn't seem to have done anything. Really don't know what's going on here.

Deox-reapplied, cling-filmed up and will look again on Sunday


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## Rakti

Washed off

Friday 17:50 on the left, Sunday 17:15 on the right
















Looking a bit less brown, even more so 'in the flesh'. Looking at what was left of the gel after removing the cling film, leaving it 48hrs was probably too long in hindsight.

Temps down from 8c to 3c tonight and not getting higher than 10c all day tomorrow, so will have to leave this bare tonight and tomorrow (the Deox-gel doesn't work well below 10c). Now wishing I'd bought some Atom Mac for these in-between periods, but who would have forecast such low temps in early May!


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## GSD

It’s a lot of effort and time for an old car.


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## Rakti

GSD said:


> It's a lot of effort and time for an old car.


Yep!

message too short so here's some more


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## Rakti

Been reading this thread on MIG and wondered if this is what this immovable blob is i.e. Magnetite

https://www.mig-welding.co.uk/forum/threads/odd-rust.85126/


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## Rakti

Had a bit of a breakthrough. Got a spark plug file and pushed it against the scab of rust and after plenty more scraping, most of it came off. Applied more Gel on Tuesday night and today I was left with this;

Previously on the left, today on the right
















I've now given it another dose of Gel and hoping that the remaining rust will be gone tomorrow. This time I filled an old water bottle top with Gel and taped it to the area then cling-filmed over it.

I've removed some of the seam sealer and there was no rust underneath it. Just hope there isn't any under any of it elsewhere.


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## Rakti

1st Coat of Electrox










If anyone's wondering what those two small holes are, well the rear light lens is on the other side, so I assume they're vent holes to stop condensation in the lenses. Anyone know if that's correct?


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## Rakti

After 2nd coat of Electrox (photo from further back and in 1024x768 as I wanted to see what it looks like on here).










In the bottom left corner, you can just see the box section where the exhaust mounting bracket fits. I've also been de-rusting this section and it got the Electrox treatment.


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## GSD

Rakti said:


> Been reading this thread on MIG and wondered if this is what this immovable blob is i.e. Magnetite
> 
> https://www.mig-welding.co.uk/forum/threads/odd-rust.85126/


That's a new one on me but I'm sure I've found very similar on a previous car I remember puzzling what it was.


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## Rakti

GSD said:


> That's a new one on me but I'm sure I've found very similar on a previous car I remember puzzling what it was.


It (and my inexperience of what it was and what I needed to do with it) has certainly cost me a lot of extra time (and Deox-gel) on this project. Plenty of people on forums saying that wire wheel brushes tend to just polish the rust, and it seems to be true. I might look for a Poly-carbide attachment that I've read about for doing the other side. Toolstation have one, but is it an 'essential' purchase?


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