# Furniture Clinic Dye Review



## david_h (Sep 19, 2006)

I feel I have to be honest here, on my experience with furniture clinic dyes. I don't mean for this to be negative, but this is just our experience, I am not affiliated in any way to any leather company, and it may just be the seats we applied it to.

We (my mate and I) changed the colour on a set of Mercedes 190E leather seats from black to tan. I realise this is difficult to do as we were going from a darker to a lighter colour.

The seats were prepped properly (as per furniture clinic instructions) and applied with furniture clinic dye through a professional spray compressor (my friend is a pro. bodywork technician). We used a significant number of coats to ensure coverage was 100%. The top lacquer was applied later on.

We have encountered several issues:-
1.) Although coverage was 100% when finished (we used a lot of dye), the seats have lasted barely 8 months of light use, the drivers seat is already pretty badly worn. We were finding the dye would not absorb into the leather itself despite rubbing the black dye off completely.

2.) The final finish after applying the lacquer was way too gloss. We required a matt finish just like out the factory, instead we got a very high gloss finish, even though we requested it was matt and labelled as such. This gave the appearance of vinyl.

We have now trialed another leather dye. This has taken the leather from black to red in a similar way. It was purchased through a trade counter so we have no details of it but the major difference is that it gives a matt finish, AND more importantly after rubbing down the black original piece to leave exposed bare leather, the new red dye was significantly absorbed into the material.

All in all we are much happier with the final result of this new dye, but we have no long-term experience with it, unlike the Furniture Clinic dye, so cannot say if it will last.

I will be restoring a set of BMW leather seats in my own car using another brand of dye in the next few weeks, I will post up the results and before/after and also update the post with wear and tear results.


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## juddzey455 (Jan 30, 2009)

Did you tell them you was going from black to tan?


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## drive 'n' shine (Apr 22, 2006)

I've done several jobs using the furniture clinic products and have never had any problems, are you sure the MB seats are actually leather and not vinyl?


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## judyb (Sep 7, 2007)

Systems that require removal of finish/pigment are always liable to poor adhesion from new product. DIY products generally do not perform as well as professional refinishing systems as multiple coats have to be applied to get coverage leaving the finished item with a very plasticy feel and loss of grain definition. Correct leather refinishing involves more than simply spraying on coats of paint and finish.

Professional recolouring systems use very little product and do not require the removal of any finish (if the finish is so bad that it needs removal you need to question the viabilty of doing the job in the first place). Where finish is in good condition greater adhesion can be achieved by leaving it intact.

Once our new trade website is in place next week you will be able to view the BRIT system which is a professional recolouring system used to recolour BA airline seats. i will post a link as soon as it is available.


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## david_h (Sep 19, 2006)

drive 'n' shine said:


> I've done several jobs using the furniture clinic products and have never had any problems, are you sure the MB seats are actually leather and not vinyl?


Thanks for your responses everyone.

I should have explained, the Mercedes seats are definitely leather they are fully electric including head rests form a 190 Cosworth.

As for the surface adhesion, is this why you supply the dyes with a final coat lacquer? Surely the lacquer can easily break/crack and once the surface is broken it will wear off in any case, which is exactly what has happened in our case.

I am sure there are more professional systems available, but then the costs become prohibitive. I was quoted £800 by Furniture Clinic to redye my BMW seats in my car (2 front and 2 rear) and they wanted me to take the interior out for them. Whether this was using a more professional system or your existing dye based spray method I don't know. However, I can get a full brand new leather interior re-trim for £1000 so it starts to become uneconomical!


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## Ben Staerck (Oct 28, 2006)

David, I am sorry to hear you haven't had good results with the kit. Please take on board the following points, for this job and any future jobs.

1. The product we supply is a paint, not a dye, and so it wouldn 't ever 100%soak into the leather. If you 100% removed the original painted finish, this would result in some of the paint forming a better bond with the leather fibres (since they would be exposed), but this isn't a crucial point in the kit.

2. The same product we supply in our kit, is the exact same product we use professionally to restore over 1000 items of leather a month.

3. We provide the prep cleaners to remove the old finish. You can apply our product wihtout removing the finish but the end results won't be as good.

Think about this; If the leather in your car looks creased and cracked. I would say 90% of the damage is in the painted layer, if you do not reduce/remove this layer you cannot get a good finish, as instead of removing the creases/cracks, you need to fill them. And then apply another painted layer ontop, creating a more plastic type coating.

Using the prep to remove the painted layer, drasticaly softens the leather as it is often this painted coating that has hardened. The prep also removes the creases and cracks.

4. The leather colourant we supply has a slight shine to it as standard. But you then apply either a matt, satin or gloss finish on afterwards. If you applied matt and it didn't go matt, then this is most likely an incorrectly labelled product. We make all kits to order so mistakes can happen.

5. If the seat is showing wear after just 8 months this is down to lack of finish being applied to seal the coating in. We have however, greatly improved our finish (about 4 months ago) so that once applied, it takes 30 minutes to prep back off. Creating a much much stronger and longer lasting finished job.

Again David, I apologise for whats happened and if ther eis anything I can do to help rectify the problem, please get intouch.


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## david_h (Sep 19, 2006)

Thanks for all the help and advice, a lot of it is preparation and experimenting given it was the first time we'd tried this.

I'm going to give my front BMW seats a go and see how they come out and how long they last.


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## drive 'n' shine (Apr 22, 2006)

I did some BMW headrests today using FC products, wish I had photographed it for you now!


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## juddzey455 (Jan 30, 2009)

Daveh, your mad to consider a colour cange on a 190 cosworth..the interior must be the same as a 190... so why not swap it? dying a leather interior from one colour to another is VERY queastionable! no amount of money in die etc is going to work!....either retrim the car or replace the interior with the colour you wont!


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## judyb (Sep 7, 2007)

Recolouring of leather seats to a different colour is perfectly possible and if the process is done correctly with the correct products will be long lasting and look good. We have done it many,many times, all with very good results. The key is in the preparation and the choice of products. 

For changing colour (the surface finish for this will be in good condition otherwise it is not recommended) removing old finish and colour is not adviseable as this leaves an unstable surface for pigment to adhere to. 

Most DIY products sold try to replicate the factory finish of the leather by using products that claim to be tannery products. The factory finish can never be replicated as old finish/pigment can never be totally removed from the leather (which would be crucial to achieve good results). Professional restoration products are designed and manufactured specifically to restore finishes, not replace them and will bond with the finishes that are on the leather, this results in a much more stable and long lasting system, also uses less product in less time so therfore very cost effective. 

These professional systems can be used by DIY'ers if the DIY'ers are prepared to take the time to fully understand the process they are undertaking. Professionalism is about doing a good job well not about being complicated or difficult. It is often quicker to do the job the professional way BUT you will just need to spend the time prior to the job learning and understanding how to do it properly rather than buying the quick fix option. We have workshop open days for this purpose so that DIY'ers can learn how to get the results they are looking for which will last for many years.

The amount of pigment (paint) used should be kept to the minimum (multiple layers of paint do not make the job stronger) so a high quality water based pigment with a strong colour content will give quicker coverage using minimal product. 

Once this has been applied a very strong finish needs to be applied (solvent based finshes are much stronger than water based). It is the finish that will give the durability but if the pigment has not stuck well to the surface in the first place this will give way and then the finish will crack with it.

Process, Preparation, Product, Practice will always give the best results.


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## M4D YN (Nov 24, 2007)

thanks for the info :thumb:


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## david_h (Sep 19, 2006)

The big difference I find with Furniture Clinic / LLT as a process is that you claim the dye is painted on and does not penetrate the surface of the leather. To ensure the dye then stays on the surface you have to seal it in with a lacquer/top coat.

This differs markedly from other dye/cleaning methods. Your cleaners, for example, are aimed at cleaning the top part of the leather and then protecting, not penetrating and then conditioning as with other brands.

In contrast, many leather cleaners recommend a conditioner afterwards to restore the suppleness of the leather.

The issue is that as soon as the top coat lacquer cracks with the furniture clinic system, surely the dye below is susceptible to wear, and hearin lies the problem with the durability of dying using this system.

Please correct me if I'm wrong. Liquid leather aka Gliptone in the UK and Leatherique in the US all use systems that penetrate and soften the leather, the best results are obtained when the leather is warm/hot and the oil/conditioner can penetrate the leather, or so they say.
Many people in the US apply the oil/conditioner after cleaning and leave it to dry in the sun on a hot day, the end results look fantastic.


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## Ben Staerck (Oct 28, 2006)

David,

Its not a claim. Its a fact. The product ltt and we (Furniture Clinic) use is a paint. If the leather fibres are exposed then some of this paint may soak into the leather a bit creating a better bond, but mainly it sits on the surface.

This is the same with gliptone and most likely leatherique.

Dyes are not used in car interiors as they are very unstable and not very hard wearing. Plus you cannot get a white coloured dye and so you can't get light colours like cream and ivory with dyes.

As far as I am aware, 100% of car interior leather is painted and so this is the best way to fix the problem.

A dye would only work, and it would work well, would be to restore the colour to cracks. But it would only effect the cracks that have gone to a lighter colour than the leather.



> The issue is that as soon as the top coat lacquer cracks with the furniture clinic system, surely the dye below is susceptible to wear, and hearin lies the problem with the durability of dying using this system.


This is true. But it is also true with leather from new.

As for conditioning or protecting leather all I can say is;

---> If you have a new car and the leather is in good condition. Applying a conditioner will have no benefit to the leather at all. I doubt it will damage the leather, but it won't benefit the leather. Put a drop of water on the leather and see if it soaks in, it will just sit there, as will a conditioner.

---> If however you have an old car where the leather has cracked (opening up the leather) and gone hard, applying a conditioner/oil will definately soften the leather. I've done this myself and you get good results. A conditioner will make the leather much softer to the touch.

Basically, if you use a conditioner on modern leather, its not doiung anything to the leather. However, it will be putting some type of layer on the leather, which may give a nice smell or texture. So if you like that then continue to use it. At the end of the day its about the end result and whether or not you can see an improvement.


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## gt5500 (Aug 6, 2008)

Ben Staerck said:


> David,
> 
> Its not a claim. Its a fact. The product ltt and we (Furniture Clinic) use is a paint. If the leather fibres are exposed then some of this paint may soak into the leather a bit creating a better bond, but mainly it sits on the surface.
> 
> ...


What a refreshingly unbiased response from a leather product trader :thumb:


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## david_h (Sep 19, 2006)

Thanks for taking the time to reply, I was becoming increasingly confused by all the options available, and what the different products do.


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## juddzey455 (Jan 30, 2009)

judyb said:


> Recolouring of leather seats to a different colour is perfectly possible and if the process is done correctly with the correct products will be long lasting and look good. We have done it many,many times, all with very good results. The key is in the preparation and the choice of products.
> 
> For changing colour (the surface finish for this will be in good condition otherwise it is not recommended) removing old finish and colour is not adviseable as this leaves an unstable surface for pigment to adhere to.
> 
> ...


I know its possible judy, i've been in the interior game for a long time. making, custom interiors for the the likes of jack barclays,maclean etc....

I know all about colouring, how hides are made etc etc...

imo colour changing is a no no...then again i'm not the one selling the product


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## judyb (Sep 7, 2007)

Recolouring processes for leather have advanced very quickly over the last few years and products are now produced for this particular market rather than coming from the tannery side.
If the work is carried out with restoration products then it is a very hard wearing system and will give long lasting results.

Here is the link I promised for the restoration process (this is restoring with the same colour but the principles are the same) With the BRIT systam you can change black to white in about 3 coats with no loss of texture or grain pattern. The quality of the products will always determine the results.
http://www.leatherclinic.co.uk/admin/assets/brit restoration process.pdf


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## terrymcg (Mar 19, 2007)

That guide is great Judy, can this be done as easily with the seat in the car? Or is it a lot better to remove the seat cover?

Terry


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## judyb (Sep 7, 2007)

Thank you Terry

It is of course far easier if you remove the seat from the car (no need to remove the cover - the guide photos were done on an aircraft seat and that is how they arrive) but is possible in the car if you cannot remove them -although you do dsometimes need to be a bit of a contortionist!!! The beauty of it is you don't have to contend with overspray etc. because you are limiting the use of the airbrush. The amount of product used in the BRIT sytem is minimal which makes it very cost effective and as it doesn't fill in the grain pattern like other systems it leaves the leather looking like new. Airlines can refurbish their seats 4 -5 times without the need for replacement using this system which is a huge cost saving.


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## juddzey455 (Jan 30, 2009)

judyb said:


> Recolouring processes for leather have advanced very quickly over the last few years and products are now produced for this particular market rather than coming from the tannery side.
> If the work is carried out with restoration products then it is a very hard wearing system and will give long lasting results.
> 
> Here is the link I promised for the restoration process (this is restoring with the same colour but the principles are the same) With the BRIT systam you can change black to white in about 3 coats with no loss of texture or grain pattern. The quality of the products will always determine the results.
> http://www.leatherclinic.co.uk/admin/assets/brit restoration process.pdf


To be honest judy the pics do look good, but i'd like to see it in the flesh tho but being a trimmer (that does refurb work) maybe are view/standards (no offence) are different?

As for black to white....i still would'nt do it, infact we had a customer wonting a o8 phantom from white to black, the lot dash,door,liner, console etc etc... would you take the job on??


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