# diesel in oil



## bidderman1969 (Oct 20, 2006)

lately the kia has been dumping diesel into the oil, meaning i have been having to do more frequent oil changes, but why is it doing it? does it HAVE to do with the DPF, or can something else trigger it?

i know some people are probably thinking "take it to a dealer" but i really don't have much faith in them tbh.

i know they can do it sometimes, and my understanding of it is that its usually if it doesn't do enough long runs, or lots of short ones, but i am doing some pretty regular long runs so i can't see why its doing it?

any way to check on anything for a clue?


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## Caledoniandream (Oct 9, 2009)

If you plug it in into diagnostics, you can see how often it regenerate, and how often it hasn’t completed it.
One of the most common causes of diesel in the engine oil is the DPF regeneration.
It could be that your DPF is on the way out and the ECU constant try to regenerate to clear it.
A quick clue is that your mpg is reduced.
The other cause can be a dripping or leaking injector.


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## bidderman1969 (Oct 20, 2006)

was thinking that if it was possible a DPF issue, it might gave thrown up some sort of warning light?


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## PugIain (Jun 28, 2006)

If it's making the oil level over full/above max I'd be very careful.


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## Jack R (Dec 15, 2014)

Although not even close to being even slightly similar the Land Rover Discovery 2 had known problems with the seals failing on the injectors around the 100k mark which then filled the oil with diesel, either way I would be getting it looked at sooner rather than later.


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## Tyrefitter (Feb 13, 2010)

Have a read of this.
https://www.energy.gov/sites/prod/files/2014/03/f8/deer09_nanjundaswamy.pdf

Andy.


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## tosh (Dec 30, 2005)

My BMW started having regen problems, and my oil level went up. Was due to failed regen; it tried but failed a lot. Only after my DPF started blocking past a threshold did I get an emissions warning. Managed to fix the issue (exhaust backpressure sensor), forced regen and everything back to normal. Then did an oil change. 

So if your oil level is going up, you’ll probably get an emissions warning soon. Get it looked at ASAP. 

It sounds like you’re getting enough of a regen though, and you’re just changing the oil?


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## PugIain (Jun 28, 2006)

Elevated crank case level can be a massive problem with diesels. It can cause "runaway" believe me, having seen a Transit van doing it, you don't want it.
My partner's step Dad had it (although this was from a failed turbo oil seal) it just revved, and revved. He was stood next to it with the key in his hand looking confused, while his van revved it's nuts off and billowed smoke all over the place. The same can happen if your oil level is too high, it can get ingested in to the combustion chamber and off it'll go.

It can end up completely seizing the engine.



You can try and stall them, or smother the air intake. If you have an auto then your options are very limited!


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## no1chunk (Nov 18, 2012)

I believe that its the dpf prob needs either a really long motorway run to get the soot blown out or dealer plug in but thats usually dnt work for very long or maybe the dpf is faulty.


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## bidderman1969 (Oct 20, 2006)

no1chunk said:


> I believe that its the dpf prob needs either a really long motorway run to get the soot blown out or dealer plug in but thats usually dnt work for very long or maybe the dpf is faulty.


Yeah but I have had long runs and never had a DPF issue (that I know off)


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## bidderman1969 (Oct 20, 2006)

tosh said:


> My BMW started having regen problems, and my oil level went up. Was due to failed regen; it tried but failed a lot. Only after my DPF started blocking past a threshold did I get an emissions warning. Managed to fix the issue (exhaust backpressure sensor), forced regen and everything back to normal. Then did an oil change.
> 
> So if your oil level is going up, you'll probably get an emissions warning soon. Get it looked at ASAP.
> 
> ...


Checked it tonight, it's a tad over ATM, not sure wether it is a DPF over fuelling it or not, doesn't seem excessive enough for a leaky injector seal, but having looked at the engine they "seem" easy enough to get at (CRD engine)


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## bidderman1969 (Oct 20, 2006)

JR1982 said:


> Although not even close to being even slightly similar the Land Rover Discovery 2 had known problems with the seals failing on the injectors around the 100k mark which then filled the oil with diesel, either way I would be getting it looked at sooner rather than later.


My old Rover 75 never had this problem! Trusty old engine that, seriously considering getting another


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## Jack R (Dec 15, 2014)

bidderman1969 said:


> My old Rover 75 never had this problem! Trusty old engine that, seriously considering getting another


I was lucky with mine I never suffered from any of the known problems with mine it was just the ones that weren't so well known that got me :lol:

That would be worth getting if you can find a decent one, a friend of ours had one it was the longest he ever kept a car because he did high mileage but the old girl managed to clock up well over 200k without any problems


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## bidderman1969 (Oct 20, 2006)

JR1982 said:


> I was lucky with mine I never suffered from any of the known problems with mine it was just the ones that weren't so well known that got me :lol:
> 
> That would be worth getting if you can find a decent one, a friend of ours had one it was the longest he ever kept a car because he did high mileage but the old girl managed to clock up well over 200k without any problems


Yup, my old one did over 300k before I had to get rid, so I may have to go down that road, the only annoying problem it had was the bottom pulley always used to go every 60k without fail, but I think there's an improved version now that lasts as long as other makes now, never touched the engine at all, oil used oil, or had injector problems

Shame really as I really like the Kia except this one issue


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## tosh (Dec 30, 2005)

This is a good explanation

https://www.honestjohn.co.uk/askhj/answer/41640/is-rising-oil-level-a-symptom-of-a-dpf-fault-

And this one

https://www.avontuning.co.uk/blog/mazda-5-6-oil-level-rising

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## bidderman1969 (Oct 20, 2006)

tosh said:


> This is a good explanation
> 
> https://www.honestjohn.co.uk/askhj/answer/41640/is-rising-oil-level-a-symptom-of-a-dpf-fault-
> 
> ...


This is an interesting statement……

"Hi. Got mazda6 2.2 diesel sport. I have been at mazda service to ask for rising oil level. They told me that it has to have calibrated injectors after oil change... otherwise it my efect a DPF . I have made only 3.5k of 12k miles on the fresh oil and the level riched the point X back."

Injectors need recalibrating" 

Mine has never thrown up a DPF light issue in the entire time I've had it, from 48k, now on 158k so I thought it would have by now if there was an issue, for the last few weeks it's had pretty regular long runs anyhow,


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## Caledoniandream (Oct 9, 2009)

Some cars need relatively high rpm to regenerate, around 3000 / 3500 rpm for approximately 30 - 40 minutes.
When the car is an automatic or you drive longer distance it’s not easy to do that.
Mostimes while trying to do a regeneration it doesn’t throw up any faults, until the DPF is blocked.


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## ollienoclue (Jan 30, 2017)

How does a faulty DPF unit cause fuel to get into the engine oil, I thought the DPF was in the exhaust and normally has it's own 'injector'?

The only way you will stop a runaway diesel engine is to block the air intake completely, or keep the heck away from the thing until it explodes.


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## Trip tdi (Sep 3, 2008)

Could well be leaking injector seals, how much diesel are you getting in the oil by the mileage time and distance, if its well over the amount I'll leave the car and take it to a specialist, having some diesel in oil in is not uncommon but with high amounts there is issues.


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## Deathstar (Jan 13, 2013)

Question has it just started doing this, or has it always done this?

A number of cars double inject diesel on the exhaust stroke to push fuel down to the DPF to increase the temp to burn off the soot. There has been timing issues with this that can be resolved with a software update. The Honda 2.2 had this issue, with the same symptoms.

If it's a new issue, it could be a weeping injector as others have already said.


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## no1chunk (Nov 18, 2012)

Not sure 100% on cars but the mobile plant i drive have dpf and they have a lifespan as the soot level builds up in the dpf filter and when it does a regen it burns the soot off but turns into ash. Well the ash dont go away so eventually our loading shovels will constantly regen all day as the levels to high so tells it to do it. Now if the principal is the same on the cars maybe the level is to high so somehow the fluids are mixing with eachother. I know it was common on the vauxhall insignias the fluids mixing but cant remember how it was doing it maybe try googling that it could tell you how and why only other is take it back to kia but try a differant garage or try a diesel specialist.


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## SteveTDCi (Feb 8, 2006)

I'd get that looked at, it sounds like the regens are failing, The Volvo D5 loves dumping fuel in the oil.

Most of the time its something simple such as a temp sensor, but left it won't get any better. Out of interest do you service it or does a dealer ? sometimes (Mazda) it has to have the oil quality reset as well as a service light otherwise it will fail on regens.


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## bidderman1969 (Oct 20, 2006)

I service it now as Kia say there isn’t anything that gets “reset” when they do it anyway


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## tosh (Dec 30, 2005)

bidderman1969 said:


> Mine has never thrown up a DPF light issue in the entire time I've had it, from 48k, now on 158k so I thought it would have by now if there was an issue, for the last few weeks it's had pretty regular long runs anyhow,


When I had my issue, I had a code reader to diagnose. There was a backpressure reading (showing how clogged the filter was) and an ash content (which never goes down). Or something like that.

Basically, forced a regen through the software and went for a drive and saw that it wouldn't stay in regen.

Find yourself a garage to to a forced regen, with before and after values for the exhaust system, or buy the tool yourself. They're easy to pick up for BMWs and VAG cars, don't know about Kia.

It sounds like you have a good car/engine, just needs a bit of TLC on the DPF side. Mine was the same, no issues until 110k miles, then I got worried it was going to be a massive bill for a blocked DPF. Bit of diagnosis and a new sensor or two was all it needed.

Is there an independent Kia garage you can find?

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## SteveTDCi (Feb 8, 2006)

We don’t carry out forced regens as it’s not good for the engine, we prefer to allow it to regen naturally while out on a run even if it takes 30 miles.


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## bidderman1969 (Oct 20, 2006)

I regularly do 50+ mile journeys lately 

It’s just trying to figure out wether it’s DPF or injector seal issue, getting the time slot to get it tested is difficult I have to admit


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## BrummyPete (Jun 10, 2010)

I've found regens to be sporadic, I've drove up the road and it's started yet I've done over 200 miles non stop at motorway speeds and it's never kicked on

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## Starbuck88 (Nov 12, 2013)

BrummyPete said:


> I've found regens to be sporadic, I've drove up the road and it's started yet I've done over 200 miles non stop at motorway speeds and it's never kicked on
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


Few different modes. Active Regen and Passive Regen. Passive Regen is when your car is up to temp, exhaust gases are nice and hot and by design the car doesn't need to go into active regen as in its natural state you'd be burning off the caught particles.

active regen normally only happens as you say on shorter runs etc.

A blocked DPF though is normally a symptom of something else, temp sensors, o2 sensors etc. Normally cleaning a dpf only solves the problem short term.


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## Andy from Sandy (May 6, 2011)

> How does a faulty DPF unit cause fuel to get into the engine oil, I thought the DPF was in the exhaust and normally has it's own 'injector'?


I am baffled by the this as well.

Does your car have a mechanical fuel pump that is lubricated by engine oil?

Have you got some problem with piston rings?

Have you got a problem with one or more injectors not working as they should?


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## BrummyPete (Jun 10, 2010)

Starbuck88 said:


> Few different modes. Active Regen and Passive Regen. Passive Regen is when your car is up to temp, exhaust gases are nice and hot and by design the car doesn't need to go into active regen as in its natural state you'd be burning off the caught particles.
> 
> active regen normally only happens as you say on shorter runs etc.
> 
> A blocked DPF though is normally a symptom of something else, temp sensors, o2 sensors etc. Normally cleaning a dpf only solves the problem short term.


Thank you for the explanation 

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## bidderman1969 (Oct 20, 2006)

Wonder if there is a test to see if it could be DPF or injector problem


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## Starbuck88 (Nov 12, 2013)

Andy from Sandy said:


> I am baffled by the this as well.
> 
> Does your car have a mechanical fuel pump that is lubricated by engine oil?
> 
> ...


Active Regen, the vehicle basically adds more fuel into the cylinder at a specific time to super heat the exhaust gases to burn off the soot. If something is not quite right like the timing is off of this extra fuel squirt by temperature readings or oxygen readings playing up etc

The extra fuel doesn't get ignited properly and it lines the cylinder walls when it's happening and it gets scraped and sucked downwards by the pistons and pushed into the oil, it's small amounts but over a period of multiple failed regens, it does add up.



ollienoclue said:


> How does a faulty DPF unit cause fuel to get into the engine oil, I thought the DPF was in the exhaust and normally has it's own 'injector'?


Ref the separate injector, that probably relates to SCR which is a further emissions reducing technology (AdBlue for example). Which squirts in a Urea solution directly into the exhaust stream that separates the NOx compound into it's individual elements.

https://www.autovida.co.uk/dpf-diesel-particulate-filter-how-it-works/

Hope this helps


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## Starbuck88 (Nov 12, 2013)

bidderman1969 said:


> Wonder if there is a test to see if it could be DPF or injector problem


Plenty, just involves lots of diagnosing at an hourly rate at a competent garage.


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## ollienoclue (Jan 30, 2017)

no1chunk said:


> Not sure 100% on cars but the mobile plant i drive have dpf and they have a lifespan as the soot level builds up in the dpf filter and when it does a regen it burns the soot off but turns into ash. Well the ash dont go away so eventually our loading shovels will constantly regen all day as the levels to high so tells it to do it. Now if the principal is the same on the cars maybe the level is to high so somehow the fluids are mixing with eachother. I know it was common on the vauxhall insignias the fluids mixing but cant remember how it was doing it maybe try googling that it could tell you how and why only other is take it back to kia but try a differant garage or try a diesel specialist.


On the more premium end of the plant/construction side, I thought they were big into oil analysis during servicing etc?

More to the point, what is the problem with having no DPF in a quarry or construction site where there is no issue with air quality?


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## SteveTDCi (Feb 8, 2006)

You usually see a build up of carbon around the injectors if they are leaking.

Diagnostics should tell you the soot and ash content. DPF's actually work however you usually find people drive cars with warning lights lit until the car stops working, they then get all upset when it cannot be fixed immediately and it costs lots. 

You usually find that first you have to fix whats broken then go looking for the cause.


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## ollienoclue (Jan 30, 2017)

SteveTDCi said:


> You usually see a build up of carbon around the injectors if they are leaking.
> 
> Diagnostics should tell you the soot and ash content. DPF's actually work however you usually find people drive cars with warning lights lit until the car stops working, they then get all upset when it cannot be fixed immediately and it costs lots.
> 
> You usually find that first you have to fix whats broken then go looking for the cause.


I know DPFs work, I don't doubt that at all, but was more interested in how they functioned, I was under the impression the DPF had a separate 'injector' of sorts that fed fuel into it, but I gather from other posts this is not the case, fuel is just injected into the cylinder during the exhaust stroke and hence reaches the DPF that way.

How is this contaminating the oil though? If the injector or it's seals are leaking that would be the most obvious route, I became confused when people began talking about DPF failure as a car could suffer from diesel in the oil irrespective of whether it had a DPF or not?


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## neil b (Aug 30, 2006)

This may help to explain things abit it's a long read but very good information.

http://mazdacx5forums.co.uk/index.php?topic=383.0


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## SteveTDCi (Feb 8, 2006)

DPF fill with soot, car decides it needs to regen as the soot content is high, the heat of the DPF is increased then the ECU washes the DPF out with fuel. 

DPFs won't regen if the oil quality is poor, then fuel level low, a warning light or service over due, every system works slightly differently. Some of the FOrds have a glow plug in the DPF to pre heat the fuel.


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## Derek Mc (Jun 27, 2006)

Mazdas do this a LOT! too it is the interuption of a regen cycle on the Mazda that does it so the diesel end up in the sump!


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## GP Punto (May 29, 2007)

Mentionned this to my mechanic, his reaction was to give it 'Lord Harry up the bypass'.

My interpretation is to get the oil very hot, drive the engine quite hard in the first four gears, and pass a lot of exhaust gas through the system.


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## PugIain (Jun 28, 2006)

I used to spank the bejesus out of my diesels.
Like properly spank them, not ooh no I've done 2500 in second it'll break.

Round all the way in every gear then hold it at high revs in 4th for a few miles.

Possibly overkill but = zero problems.

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## bidderman1969 (Oct 20, 2006)

GP Punto said:


> Mentionned this to my mechanic, his reaction was to give it 'Lord Harry up the bypass'.
> 
> My interpretation is to get the oil very hot, drive the engine quite hard in the first four gears, and pass a lot of exhaust gas through the system.


im not sure that'll work on this car, I'm going to try and find out what kinda of system i have on mine


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## Andy from Sandy (May 6, 2011)

> Like properly spank them, not ooh no I've done 2500 in second it'll break.
> 
> Round all the way in every gear then hold it at high revs in 4th for a few miles.


My car does 80 or more in third so I am not sure I should spank it so hard. lol


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## bidderman1969 (Oct 20, 2006)

found a post i'd commented on a few years ago, will look on the links in that thread again i think


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## bidderman1969 (Oct 20, 2006)

interesting read.......

No it does not have to do an active regeneration at fixed mileage intervals.

Most of the soot collected in the DPF happens when you drive the car from cold. For the first 10 minutes or so. Once your temp gauge is showing 85c the coolant is at temperature, and the engine is running at normal operating temps. exhaust gasses entering the DPF will then be hot. The DPF itself will then be hot enough to passively oxidise the soot (no need for the ECU to intervene and turn the filter into a furnace)

An active regeneration will happen if you do a lot of short trips where the engine either rarely reaches operating temp, or it does, but only for a short while. Like 5 or so minutes after reaching temp.

What happens here is that after a certain amount of miles (nothing specific) the soot loading reaches 45% and the ECU will initiate an active regen. BUT it won't try and perform one until the engine is up to temp.

You will easily know it's doing an active regen if your average MPG suddenly drops, or the INST MPG suddenly drops off from the 60+ and starts flitting around the half way mark (30 MPG).

Here's an example:

The filter has hit 45% loading last time you used the car.

You set off in the morning. reset your average MPG computer and off you go. You are doing 40 - 50 MPH in 4th or 5th gear and after 10 minutes the temp gauge reaches the normal operating temperature. The ECU realises the parameters are ideal for the active regen and it initiates it.

Your average MPG drops suddenly from say 53 to 45, if you slow to a stop the centre display says 'Auto Stop Function Limited' (and the ISG Off light in the button will be on) also the engine may sound a little tractor like. The active regen is taking place. DO NOT switch off the engine unless you have no choice but to do so. If you reach the end of your journey, go on further for another 5 minutes or so and try to keep a steady speed of at least 40 MPH and have the revs around or just below 2000. An active regen usually only takes 10 minutes to complete. (There is no need to drive it hard or fast, as the ECU has taken control at this point and has injected diesel directly into the burner to raise the DPF temp up to 500-600C)

You will know when it's finished easiest by rolling to a stop, and if the 'Auto Stop Function Limited' no longer displays, you can switch off the engine. The regen will have finished. If you get out at this point straight away, you will probably notice a rubbery or electrical burning smell, and or a hot metal smell. That's normal.

It would be useful if there was just a light on the dash to show when an active regen is taking place, but as there is not one, how I described above is the easiest way to know when its happening.

*Obviously there may be times when it initiates an active regen and you have no choice but to stop before the process has completed. If this happens then don't panic. You can switch it off, and the ECU will log it as an incomplete cycle. Unlike other older DPF designs, the Kia's DPF will not dump unspent diesel into the sump.*

What will happen is the ECU will try again usually a few days later at the next marker (55% loading) or the "2nd Attempt". If this cycle completes then the whole process is reset and the filter is emptied.

If however this 2nd attempt is stopped mid way through by switching off the engine again, or does not complete for any other reason like getting caught up in a long traffic jam with the engine just ticking over. You will have a 3rd and final chance to let it do it's job.

The 3rd attempt will typically take place at around 65% loading. Again, if you allow it to complete, then the entire process is reset - but If you can't or do not allow this 3rd active regen attempt to complete, the engine management lamp will light up and flash.

This is your last chance to let it do its job without getting the garage involved! If the engine management light does come on and flashes continuously, then just drive the car at a fairly constant speed of around 60 MPH, ideally in 5th gear (revs just over 2000) for about 20-25 minutes. After such time has elapsed the light should stop flashing and go out. Once it does the process is complete and everything is reset (you will get your 3 tries again if required)

If you ignore the light at this point, the DPF will become overloaded to a point where just hard driving will not be able to clear it. The ECU may also act to protect the system by going into 'Limp Mode' so you cannot drive above certain revs/speeds. At this point you would have to get a garage to perform what's called a 'Forced Regen'. These are very rarely free of charge!Edited by: sharon75

so, judging by that explanation, i think the DPF MAYBE ok, so, now im leaning towards injector seals?


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## suds (Apr 27, 2012)

No wonder the world is banning diesels Bidder


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## bidderman1969 (Oct 20, 2006)

when you consider how much more complicated the diesel engines are nowadays, and how much more they need looking after, all the regen's, etc, weighed up against the gain in MPG, can see why i am seriously considering petrol or an older 75 diesel again


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## SteveTDCi (Feb 8, 2006)

If you post or PM your reg i'll try and post up the injector layout and what seals are needed.


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## bidderman1969 (Oct 20, 2006)

SteveTDCi said:


> If you post or PM your reg i'll try and post up the injector layout and what seals are needed.


Cheers chap

PE62UWZ

:thumb:


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## ollienoclue (Jan 30, 2017)

PugIain said:


> I used to spank the bejesus out of my diesels.
> Like properly spank them, not ooh no I've done 2500 in second it'll break.
> 
> Round all the way in every gear then hold it at high revs in 4th for a few miles.
> ...


Petrol engines probably benefit from the same. Good hot exhaust gases will help keep the sensors in the exhaust clean, plus make the moisture and any fuel in the engine oil evaporate away.


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## SteveTDCi (Feb 8, 2006)

bidderman1969 said:


> Cheers chap
> 
> PE62UWZ
> 
> :thumb:


Pm your email address :thumb:


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## SteveTDCi (Feb 8, 2006)

Done, should be 15 pictures, i've included one of the EGR you were looking at the other week.


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## bidderman1969 (Oct 20, 2006)

SteveTDCi said:


> Done, should be 15 pictures, i've included one of the EGR you were looking at the other week.


Cheers bud :thumb:


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## SteveTDCi (Feb 8, 2006)

Was it of any use ?


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## bidderman1969 (Oct 20, 2006)

Haven’t had time to digest at moment, but I shall at some point fella :thumb:


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## bidderman1969 (Oct 20, 2006)

well, I've learned a few things about my Kia, i remember being told, by the dealership im sure it was, that i couldn't tow with this car, well, apparently you can!



























some weird pictures regarding this towing business









using fuel and fuel additives.....


















as well as having the manual gearbox oil changed too, something the dealership never told me about, even when it was being serviced by them unto 100K miles!


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