# Make Your Own Carnauba Car Wax - Possible/Reasonable?



## PRAXXUS

Greetings and Salutations,

My first post here :newbie: , so please bear with me. I have been reading with great interest all of the excellent detailing guides and awesome product reviews. As the guides have inspired me to correct and/or improve my auto detailing procedures, the product reviews have instigated a more cautious look at what I am buying and really how good are they. Meguiar's, Mothers, Zymöl, Menzerna, P21S, AutoGlym, Collinte, Pinnacle, Klasse, 3M, TurtleWax, etc. just to name a few... I'm under the impression that you could make a blind guess at any of these and be happy, as they are all good brand name.

Of course, a products final results are inherently dependent on the user. However, taking the user out of the equation, and simply judging a product for the quality of ingredients used is what I am after. Unfortunately, most car wax brands don't label their products with "ingredients", specifically, what percent of carnauba wax (the active ingredient) is used, as well as other ingredients.

For-example,










Mothers CALIFORNIA GOLD® PURE CARNAUBA WAX - STEP 3, sells at our local auto store, along with other brands, all at different prices, but which one has the most active ingredient?

"PURE CARNAUBA WAX" doesn't mean 100% PURE CARNAUBA WAX by volume, rather it has a unspecified percentage of "PURE CARNAUBA WAX" by volume. If carnauba wax is the active ingredient then logic dictates that smart buying would lead me to the product with the highest percentage of carnauba wax by volume at the lowest price, taking into consideration quality of carnauba used. Searching through the forum and various threads trying to find an answer, I keep reading about specific brands that people like and researched specifications/ingredients and pricing for these (some are NOT cheap), then I stumble across, Zymöl Royale Glaze - $7,118 USD  and read their advertised description:

Product Description
Zymöl Royale Glaze (50oz.) It was originally formulated to protect the finish of the Bugatti Royale, a rare late 1920's ultra-luxury car (only about half a dozen were built) so meticulously crafted and exquisitely engineered that today it is considered a work of art. Suitable for all paint types and colors. Royale Glaze contains 70% Brazilian No.1 White Carnauba by volume, which is the absolute highest quality available anywhere! Ingredients: Contains white carnauba sap, Montan Evergreen Oil, Sunflower Oil, Cantaloupe Oil, Coconut Oil, Honeydew extract, Strawberry extract, Propolis (derived from bees) and pure glycerin. Royale Glaze contains 70% Brazilian No.1 White Carnauba by volume.

Zymöl Royale Glaze, with 70% carnauba wax by volume for approx. $7000 USD is the highest % by volume of any product on the market, it's also outrageously over priced, or maybe just expensive. I can only imagine how much carnauba wax by volume is in the $20 - $50 USD brands, a good guess would be less than 5%. So, what makes up the rest of the wax? (i.e. Mothers CALIFORNIA GOLD® PURE CARNAUBA WAX - STEP 3 which sells for $25 USD) What are you really paying for? Filler? Is 5% carnauba wax enough for a good wax job, or is 70% carnauba wax a better wax job? I will give credit where credit is due, Zymöl is the only company/site I found that details carnauba wax content by volume for all their products. This impressed me!! :thumb:

http://www.zymol.com/carnauba.htm
scroll to the bottom of the page for the list. Otherwise, I have enclosed it below, although there is good reading to found there.

How Much Carnauba Is In Zymöl Wax?

Typical waxes contain 3 to 5% Carnauba (not necessarily Brazilian No. 1 Carnauba) by volume. The greater the concentration of Carnauba the greater the level of protection and the higher the level of shine. Zymöl's content of Brazilian No. 1 Yellow (and/or White) Carnauba in Zymöl standard waxes is:

Creame™ 33% Yellow Carnauba
Carbon™ 37% Yellow Carnauba
Japon™ 37% Yellow Carnauba
Saab™ 37% Yellow Carnauba
Volvo™ 37% Yellow Carnauba
Concours™	47% Yellow & White Carnauba
Ital™ 35% Yellow & White Carnauba
Titanium™ 51% Yellow & White Carnauba
Destiny™ 51% White Carnauba
Atlantique™ 60% White Carnauba
Vintage™ 61% White Carnauba
Detail™ 38% White Carnauba
Royale™ 68%-70% White Carnauba

Also, please note, that further research in understanding the difference between White Carnauba and Yellow Carnauba Wax, will reveal that white is actually a pale yellow-whitish wax, and the yellow wax is actually a brown, or blackish wax - this is the cheapest stuff. See images below:


























Now equipped with an ingredients list from Zymöl Royale Glaze...I then wondered how hard it would be to make my own premium car wax (70% carnauba wax by volume), based on ingredients by Zymöl Royale Glaze and focus on purchasing quality active ingredients. BTW, I'm not at all interested in reselling or manufacturing for monetary gain, that's not my goal. I simply want to get the best possible product(s) for the best price. After looking at the ingredients list for Zymöl Royale Glaze, it shouldn't be too hard to get this stuff and brew/cook your own? eBay sells pure carnauba wax powder/flakes, and a quick search on google tells you what you need to make your own car wax.

Google Results:

Formula for Making Your Own Car Wax
You will need:
1/2 cup melted carnauba wax
2 tbsp melted yellow beeswax
2 cups turpentine
1 tbsp pine oil
In a double boiler, heat the carnauba wax and beeswax. Stir, then allow to cool just until the mixture starts to harden. Stir in the turpentine and pine oil. To use, apply with a rag: polish with a soft cloth.

Using the above formula as a base, and modifying with ingredients from Zymöl Royale Glaze, would it not be reasonable to say that you would have a better Carnauba Car Wax, than what is available at the local auto store for $25-$50, and at least you know what you put into it? One point that freaks me out is the turpentine - I thought you use this to clean paint brushes, not sure if I want that strong solvent on my paint. 

Finally, has anybody here tried to make/cook their own car wax? Is this at all reasonable, since it doesn't seem too complicated to make? Or just cough up the big bucks for high end products and put faith where faith is due.

Cheers
:wave:


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## Neil_S

Fascinating post, I have often thought about this and would like to try, it's just getting started which is the tricky bit.

As far as I understand it, Carnuaba is Carnuaba and it's the other ingredients in a wax which seem to make the difference (apart from the difference between white and yellow of course).

The % of carnuaba seems to be a marketing tool, if you speak to somebody like the owner of Victoria Wax they seem to say that this isn't as important as some of the premium brands would have you believe.


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## Jules

The problem with carnuba is that in it's natural state it's rock hard. Therefore if you wnt to make a wax with a high carnuba content, you need to find other ingredients that will keep the carnuba soft, but evaporate on application, leaving the Carnuba behind to do it's work.

Personally I think that 70% by volume is probably the maximum you could get to, without having a completely unworkable wax.


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## Coxy914

An interesting first post by all accounts!
I'm sure by stating the volume of pure white carnauba wax on a manfacturers products is the main selling point and I'm even more sure that it would be very possible to make your own in your kitchen for a fraction of the cost. Like others have said, it's the addition of a few extra natural products that make the wax useable. I'm sure if you were prepared to trial and error a few different formulas making notes on each one as you go then you could quite easily stumble on a winning combination in the end anyway. I mean, someone had to come up with the idea of using carnauba wax in the first place!


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## Brazo

You've done your research haven't you :thumb:

Some members have tried it, L200 steve for one, the conclusions from his first experiemnts were basically 'not to bother' and afaik he hasn't pursued it further- that said give it a go and let us know :thumb:


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## Dave KG

A very interesting post, I have enjoed reading that.


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## NavSG

Excellent post, i think what needs to be done is that some of the students on the forum need to get chummy with their chemistry counterparts. Maybe try some experiments in the lab, etc !

:thumb:


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## daveb

very intrestring indeed i have offen contemplated adding more carnuba to one of my zymol waxes to bring it up the zymol ranga as it were, but be sure that if you do it you will get nothing but encouregment from us lot, well done mate, a really good addition to the forum:thumb:


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## angusdope

Very interesting! I might give this a go someday lol, would i be correct in saying that the turps is added to work as a solvent to help the wax "flash off" as my father says?


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## Neil_S

daveb said:


> very intrestring indeed i have offen contemplated adding more carnuba to one of my zymol waxes to bring it up the zymol ranga as it were, but be sure that if you do it you will get nothing but encouregment from us lot, well done mate, a really good addition to the forum:thumb:


If you could transform a lower end Zymol wax into 60-70% carnuaba content, you would not end up with Vintage or Royale.

Carnuaba is carnuaba at the end of the day, IMO the oils and all the other contents in the wax make the look.

Naturally a difference exists between yellow and white, but other than that I think the only difference the carnuaba content may make would be durability.


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## deej

I think this is a great idea, but i believe that Zymol use Carnuba content as a massive selling point, as Neil says i too think that Carnuba content is not the only thing that makes a wax look good, the other ingredients are essential.

On Refined Reflections Jaguar thread i read earlier, where the Swissvax Divine was used Gary commented that when left for a while the Divine set like concrete, maybe this is one of the disadvantages of very high Carnuba content, sacrificing the content for useability. 

Hmmmm.....


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## Guest

Brazo said:


> You've done your research haven't you :thumb:


Firstly, well done Praxxus on your reseach and bringing the topic up. You have done some very good research, but there are still some myths and fallacies floating around. I will attempt to fill you in - and the other forum members may find it interesting, too.

Please remember that the views expressed are my own, based on personal opinion or experience, and do not apply to ANY PARTICULAR brand or product.

Basically, I asked myself the same questions as Praxxus a year ago and tried making my own wax as a bit of a hobby... then later in the year Paul Dalton (Miracle Detail) asked me to look into a wax for him and I learned even more. We ended up using an independent chemist and making waxes the hard way - from scratch. Many wax companies have the option of buying the basic waxes in from bigger chemical companies in bulk and modifying them. We decided to take a more controlled approach. Here's what I found in the last year or so...

1) You can make a natural wax using natural ingredients and a recipe found on the net, but it won't be that good. I even made a nice wax emulsion (water AND oil based - you try mixing them!) but the waxes weren't very good. Certainly not as good as a wax you can buy for 10-20 GBP and I didn't really want to put it on my car! I made an OK wax, but OK isn't good enough. If you want a useful recipe on the internet, make some soap or furniture polish 

2) Natural doesn't necessarily mean good. We're not making innocent smoothies here. You can throw in all the pure coconut oil you want, but will it ever buff off? And you may be surprised what some 'natural' products have in them. What is natural? Sodium chloride sounds horrible, but salt sounds natural...

3) Sooner or later you need a chemist. They have access to the latest techniques, equipment and ingredients. Use turpentine for your solvent/drying oil and you will smell like your dad's shed after you've waxed the car! Modern solvents can have superior properties to traditional 'natural' ones. Dp you want a wax that saves the world or one to shine your car? Shining the car is always a priority, and it's nice if they're then as eco-friendly as possible.

4) Carnauba content... All I'll say is get some carnauba flakes, find the most powerful solvent on earth (something far more aggressive than you'd ever use in a car wax, like paintshop thinners) and make a 60% carnauba mix. You will be left with a crumbly yellow brick. They make nice paperweights though. My guess is most premium waxes have a genuine 25-35% carnauba content BY WEIGHT, ie 50g in 200g jar. Remember that you can probably measure it in different ways to make different figures, eg proportion of carnauba wax out of all wax content (100% carnauba, 0% beeswax); proportion of carnauba solids in residue after the wax has dried; proportion of all carnauba materials including carnauba wax in the products etc. But why, if not for marketing?

5) Carnauba as an ingredient... like 'Turbo' in the 80's, carnauba is a big marketing buzzword, used and abused in equal measure. It is an amazing substance, but it is one element of a good wax. Look at how the wax applies, dries, buffs, beads etc. It's the whole package that matters. Some waxes have different properties, say beeswax may natually bead better - but it will not last as long as it is a softer wax. A good wax has many different ingredients; it needs lubricity and softness, as well as good drying and buffing qualities. Carnauba is just the base.

6) Ingredients on wax jars... from what I have seen claimed for a wax and discovered to be actually in it, let's just say that I'm guessing the same regulations applied to food and hair and beauty products do not apply! Applying stuff to your car isn't as dangerous as eating it or smearing it all over your torso! Some of the stuff I have seen is good marketing at best, unethical and dishonest at worst. I'm pretty sure it's not illegal though. Therefore, be careful comparing one manufacturer's claim to another - you may find a low carnauba content wax works better than a high carnauba one.

7) White carnauba as a type of wax... it is like a unicorn. I am not saying it doesn't exist, just that I have never seen it! Carnauba is yellow/brown as Praxxus says. I have spoken to many chemists and carnauba distributors and there are three possibilities... some other part of the carnauba palm, ie not the wax, but maybe the sap (which may or may not have similar properties to the wax); bleached carnauba; or the most likely option, micronised (powdered) carnauba flakes. As a fine powder, carnauba looks whitish with a yellow tinge, due to light reflection. A manufacturer could probably claim this is white carnauba as it is carnauba and is white in colour - fair enough! I may add some to our recipes. It will dissolve a fraction quicker and looks funky 

8) Turpentine on your car... pure natural turpentine oil (basically a natural pine oil) smells pretty bad but is not that aggressive as some modern industrial solvents. You could happily apply a turpentine based carnauba wax to a modern paint finish without a problem, so feel free to experiment away. It's stuff like neat paintshop thinners I'd stay clear from!

9) Carnauba wax was used in furniture polish by Mr S C Johnson in the 30s and is also used as a shiny food coating on apples and sweets etc. It has been used for decades (point of info).

Good luck if you want to have a go at making a wax. It was fun making mine and I have some to show the kids/grandkids when I get old. But they weren't up to the best that the market has to offer. That only happened when I commissioned the chemists. Remember, everyone has been marketed to for years (sometimes by me, oops!) and what you believe isn't necessarily fact.

Remember: The carnauba sellers market to the carnauba buyers who market to the carnauba wax manufacturers who market to the carnauba wax distributors who market to the carnauba wax resellers who market to the carnauba wax purchasers. A little bit of myth or misunderstanding, however unintentional, goes a long way. And that's before the media get hold of a story. They had Paul Dalton using 'Australian filtered water' for his details, FFS, when he mentioned Australian microfibre towels and filtered water!

Finally, as for making your own wax vs buying, personally I'd stick to a good mid-market carnauba wax for 20-30 GBP (probably the same in USD) as it will last ages and be a lot cheaper than sourcing carnauba flakes, turpentine, double boiler and a lot less trouble. A jar should last a year and it will be better than something you can make at home yourself.

All the best,
Miracle Agent


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## Alex L

Some really great info here.

I googled all the ingrediants in Royale once but could never find Moltan oil?


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## Guest

Alex L said:


> Some really great info here.
> 
> I googled all the ingrediants in Royale once but could never find Moltan oil?


Montan Oil (not Moltan  ) is a basically a coal oil. Montan wax is - in its unrefined form - a black wax used in shoe polish that smells very strongly of coal. You can get lighter coloured, less fragrant refined grades tho'. It is a carboniferous product essentially made from compressed and fossilised trees... like coal itself.

Montan wax can be pretty good, and is worth using along with carnauba and bees waxes in some car wax products.

I have seen Montan Oil referred to as 'Evergreen Montan Oil' which makes it sound like something coming from a few nice green trees in the Montan mountains, wherever they may be! In fact, it's coal oil from deep underground. Somehow 'coal oil' wouldn't sound so good.


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## Alex L

miracle agent said:


> Montan Oil (not Moltan  ) is a basically a coal oil. Montan wax is in its unrefined from a black wax used in shoe polish that smells very strongly of coal. You can get lighter coloured refined grades tho'. It is a carboniferous product essentially made from compressed and fossilised trees... like coal. Montan wax can be pretty good, and is worth using along with carnauba and bees waxes in car wax products.
> 
> I have seen it referred to as 'Evergreen Montan Oil' which makes it sound like something coming from a few nice green trees in the Montan mountains, wherever they may be. In fact, it's coal oil from deep underground. Somehow 'coal oil' wouldn't sound so good.


I was thinking of Molton Brown  

Cool info :thumb: :thumb:


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## Brazo

A dentist told me they use montan oil in dentistry and he recognised the clove like smell immediatly


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## Alex L

Brazo said:


> A dentist told me they use montan oil in dentistry and he recognised the clove like smell immediatly


Hmmm Zymol Destiny on the teeth??:lol:


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## steveo3002

mr *miracle*, any comments on silicones?? what are good /safe ones to have in a product and what are the bad ones?


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## Guest

steveo3002 said:


> mr *miracle*, any comments on silicones?? what are good /safe ones to have in a product and what are the bad ones?


That is a question for the chemists... it gets complicated very quickly. Dimethicone, or silicone, is a very useful ingredient in waxes but as you know, bodyshops hate it as it causes fish eyes in the paint, and it may perish certain rubber materials IIRC. However, there are (apparently!) good and bad types of silicone and the nice kind are used extensively in the wax world. I can't go into specifics but some products are positively swimming in silicones and no-one knows it  You could never copy a wax because quantity of individual ingredients and methods of manufacture are too critical, but you can identify certain raw ingredients through spectrum analysis. It's amazing what a chemist can discover - it's like an X-ray machine at the airport 

I wouldn't really get too upset about silicones. The nasty ones are kept well away from car waxes - you'd only get intor trouble using cheap furniture polishes etc. on a car. The nice ones you're probably already using!


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## HeavenlyDetail

Damn i enjoyed that.....
When we discuss water let me know:lol:


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## Guest

vxrmarc said:


> Damn i enjoyed that.....
> When we discuss water let me know:lol:


hahahahaha, your the water king aren't you Marc!!!!


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## HeavenlyDetail

paul000 said:


> hahahahaha, your the water king aren't you Marc!!!!


Hahahahaha
Just splashing around in the bath checking me tds , ppm , kh , dh , ph and bubble bath mixture....:lol:


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## HeavenlyDetail

Paul you wait till you see me superspray system thinking of getting for 500 litre spray as garage opens......ro heaven dust goodbye!!!!

MA is a wealth of info......


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## Neil_S

Top posts MA, a great insight.


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## Guest

vxrmarc said:


> Hahahahaha
> Just splashing around in the bath checking me tds , ppm , kh , dh , ph and bubble bath mixture....:lol:


Your nearly as sad as me.... sanding the orange peel off my fridge! :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## HeavenlyDetail

paul000 said:


> Your nearly as sad as me.... sanding the orange peel off my fridge! :lol: :lol: :lol:


Yea but i know your not joking!!!!
Bring your ptg tomorrow and do mine!!:buffer: 
And its a smeg!!:thumb:


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## Guest

vxrmarc said:


> Yea but i know your not joking!!!!
> Bring your ptg tomorrow and do mine!!:buffer:
> And its a smeg!!:thumb:


Im just sanding the Snap on box which is currently living in the kitchen!


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## david g

paul000 said:


> Im just sanding the Snap on box which is currently living in the kitchen!


Sado :lol:


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## HeavenlyDetail

He aint jokin dave:wall:


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## david g

Now that is a miracle


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## Guest

pmsl!!!!

I am testing my waxes!!!


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## david g

paul000 said:


> pmsl!!!!
> 
> I am testing my waxes!!!


Next youll be testing the waxes on knives and forks


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## HeavenlyDetail

Are your legs smooth yet?


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## brightpinkstar

Alex L said:


> I was thinking of Molton Brown
> 
> Cool info :thumb: :thumb:


Good stuff that Molton Brown, wouldnt use it on the car though!! 

Interesting read. Prob be best to just buy a wax, but would be fun to have a go making some. Sounds like a job for DaveKG


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## HeavenlyDetail

brightpinkstar said:


> Good stuff that Molton Brown, wouldnt use it on the car though!!
> 
> Interesting read. Prob be best to just buy a wax, but would be fun to have a go making some. Sounds like a job for DaveKG


:lol:


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## Refined Reflections

Any chance this thread can get back on topic?


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## brightpinkstar

So who is going to be the first to have a try and post the results?


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## Guest

brightpinkstar said:


> So who is going to be the first to have a try and post the results?


I can try and take some pics of the coconut oil/carnauba/turpentine/beeswax I made inc beading, versus the chemist-created ones. My amateur versions will be very similar to what praxxus will be able to make as I was drawing on similar reference materials. I will also show what 60% carnauba mix looks like. Presumably attaching pics is easy enough? Regards MA


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## Rich

I was suprised in the first post to see Zymol Titanium contains a higher % or carnuba than the Concours.

I though as the prices went up as did the Carnuba % ?


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## Guest

Rich said:


> I was suprised in the first post to see Zymol Titanium contains a higher % or carnuba than the Concours.
> 
> I though as the prices went up as did the Carnuba % ?


So Titanium has a claimed 4% more carnauba than Concours. That's 4g in 100g or 10g in a normal 250g/ml jar.

On ebay, carnauba flakes cost about 1.4p per gramme retail. So 10g x 1.4p = 14p.

Would you necessarily put the price up if it has an extra 14p of ingredients in it? That's like putting another cherry on your Mr Kipling bakewell tart.

And by the same token, if 250g of pure carnauba costs about 3.50 GBP, what should you charge for a 70% pure carnauba wax?


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## deej

miracle agent said:


> So Titanium has a claimed 4% more carnauba than Concours. That's 4g in 100g or 10g in a normal 250g/ml jar.
> 
> On ebay, carnauba flakes cost about 1.4p per gramme retail. So 10g x 1.4p = 14p.
> 
> Would you necessarily put the price up if it has an extra 14p of ingredients in it? That's like putting another cherry on your Mr Kipling bakewell tart.
> 
> And by the same token, if 250g of pure carnauba costs about 3.50 GBP, what should you charge for a 70% pure carnauba wax?


7 grand? :lol:


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## Jules

deej said:


> 7 grand? :lol:


Interesting........

So Zymol Royale contains 1412g of product, of which the bulk ingredient (70%) costs £13.84 (using miracle agents costings).

It was developed for a 1920's car, so I assume the orginal recipe has been around for a while (so no expensive R&D costs to recoup then) and they must have got the technique right by now with all the practise that they have had making the stuff over the years (so minimal wastage).

There is nothing in the marketing blurb about it taking a long time to make, or needing a long time to mature (thus incurring storage charges and creating stock that cannot be sold - the classic working capital eater)

Other quoted ingredients include Sunflower oil (£1 a litre at tesco's) and Cantelope and Honeydew oils (£1 each for small fragrance bottles from your local aromatherapist). Even if you could get the highest possible grade of carnuba and other ingredients, I can't see the total cost of ingredients exceeding £100.00.

In fact, the pretty case probably costs more to make than the ingredients to make it.

So what exactly are you paying £7K for?


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## Guest

Jules said:


> Interesting........
> 
> So Zymol Royale contains 1412g of product, of which the bulk ingredient (70%) costs £13.84 (using miracle agents costings).
> 
> It was developed for a 1920's car, so I assume the orginal recipe has been around for a while (so no expensive R&D costs to recoup then) and they must have got the technique right by now with all the practise that they have had making the stuff over the years (so minimal wastage).
> 
> There is nothing in the marketing blurb about it taking a long time to make, or needing a long time to mature (thus incurring storage charges and creating stock that cannot be sold - the classic working capital eater)
> 
> Other quoted ingredients include Sunflower oil (£1 a litre at tesco's) and Cantelope and Honeydew oils (£1 each for small fragrance bottles from your local aromatherapist). Even if you could get the highest possible grade of carnuba and other ingredients, I can't see the total cost of ingredients exceeding £100.00.
> 
> In fact, the pretty case probably costs more to make than the ingredients to make it.
> 
> So what exactly are you paying £7K for?


Let's just say that the packaging industry is a beautiful one to be in. We create art in perspex - it's not a box, it's a dream that people can hold in their hands :thumb:

Oh, actually, you are paying for the exclusivity, the research and development and the preparation - plus the distribution, marketing etc etc. A Rolex costs a lot less when it's sold for its scrap metal value. But your point is a good one.

The closest analogy I'd have is the perfume market - nice packaging and sky high prices for fragrant water. Nice


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## deej

Thats a nice analogy :thumb: 

The perspex cant cost anything to make either, a 5 minute CAD CAM jobby.


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## Guest

But you do apparently get free refills for life... which if you get it refilled as much as some customers are trying to, makes it cheaper than turtle wax 

Would you pay Lynx a grand for free deodorant for life? Or the post office three grand for free postage for life? Maybe... Makes it better value unless you buy it and fall down dead the next day... or the company ceases to trade or they run out of carnauba in Brazil or whatever.


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## Clark @ PB

yeah but at least you can include the Royale in your will so your family will benefit from it if you do get hit by a bus


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## Guest

Clark said:


> yeah but at least you can include the Royale in your will so your family will benefit from it if you do get hit by a bus


Cool... so it is getting better value by the minute  Now why didn't my great great grandad get a pot?


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## Clark @ PB

miracle agent said:


> Cool... so it is getting better value by the minute  Now why didn't my great great grandad get a pot?


can just see the vacant look on relatives faces when they get given this huge big acrylic case full of wax after the will reading lol


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## brightpinkstar

miracle agent said:


> But you do apparently get free refills for life... which if you get it refilled as much as some customers are trying to, makes it cheaper than turtle wax


Now if I could afford a pot of vintage Id be very tempted, but for personal use would I really get through that many 22oz pots to start recouping my cash.


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## AndyC

Jules said:


> So what exactly are you paying £7K for?


Probably someone to detail your car for you mate 

Be interested to know how many private punters have actually shelled out as I'd have thought that most people who can spend £7,000 on a wax would be highly unlikely to detail their own car.

Please no anti Zymol styff again chaps - debate it by all means but keep it clean :thumb:

EDIT - with hindsight a tad harsh on my part; apologies. Let's put it another way, a Saville Row suit is made from the same basic ingredients as a cheap suit from Asda (apparently) and yet you'll pay up to £3,000 for one and as little as £20 for the other - you pay your money, you make your choice, as with;

1. Can of Coke vs tap water - they do the same thing!
2. Nike trainers vs cheap off the market jobs

And so the list goes on!

Personally, I wish Paul every success with his new waxes and I'll be queueing to get a pot when it's available.


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## 182_Blue

i have to say if i had the the disposable income of the type of person who would buy Royale (probably talking money no object) then i would most probably get a pot


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## Guest

Right, finally got around to cooking up some wax for you guys, to illustrate a few points made on this thread.

Here's some molten T1 grade carnauba wax - 100% pure. Looks like honey but when it cools it is crumbly, hard and not applicable to paintwork.










Because this was 30g of carnauba, I decided to add 20ml (equivalent to 20g by weight as a general rule) of solvent. In theory, this would mean 30g out of 50g total weight would be carnauba, ie 60% carnauba concentration. (Some solvent evaporates during the melting process, so the concentration is likely to be a little higher, but you get my drift). I used the nastiest, most concentrated solvent I could find... industrial thinners... a mix of toluene, kerosene and something else that would make your eyes water. Orange Oil, Turpentine etc are all a lot less aggressive as solvents. I wanted to use as vicious a solvent as possible to soften the carnauba as much as I could.

Here's the result when the mix cooled (it stank of thinners by the way). A cake of carnauba rather than the soft wax you may be expecting:










You can see how crumbly and crystalline it is. It isn't easy to break, let alone apply to a car's bodywork.










I found the best amateur car wax I could make used turpentine (smells a bit tho'). You can use orange oil or coconut oil but these aren't drying oils, so don't evaporate off nicely, meaning you'll smear them not buff them. Here's my Turps Wax. It has bits of black foam applicator pad in it; that's the specking. It was a hard wax like P21S and beaded pretty well but not as good as it should. The beads were pretty lazy and not very 'upright'. For reference, it was probably about 20% carnauba by weight.










Finally, here's a shot of the chemist's offering. It is a soft wax that smells and looks fantastic, and beads like a biatch  It acts like it has all the carnauba in the world in it but it probably doesn't as it doesn't look like the first pic I showed you. In fact, it probably has no more than 30%.










So it shows, there's more to a good wax than just loading it with carnauba. The magic is what the other ingredients are and do! 

Regards
MA


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## Neil_S

Nice post MA, everydays a school day!


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## bigal76

Thanks MA - a LOT of trouble and effort into doing that, photos, write up etc - greatly appreciated!

We need to organise a field trip to a wax factory or find some photos of one. Happy not to know the secret ingredients, but would love to see it all being put together.


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## Clark @ PB

brightpinkstar said:


> Now if I could afford a pot of vintage Id be very tempted, but for personal use would I really get through that many 22oz pots to start recouping my cash.


Totally agree, but from a business side - i.e someone that is detailing every day and making regular use of the Vintage it makes a lot of sense :thumb:

On another note, I'm going to see a Guy later on today with a view to doing his new DB9 and he wants us to use his zymol products, the exact words on the phone from his secretary were "he wants you guys to use his zymol polishes rolleyes: ) as he bought the really expensive ones in a big class case or something like that..."

I wont know untill i see but it sounds like he has at least Vintage for his own personal use (he has other cars than the DB9 too )


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## Alex L

Great post, I'm sure theres people in Halfords that'd buy your wax :lol:


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## Jules

bigal76 said:


> Thanks MA - a LOT of trouble and effort into doing that, photos, write up etc - greatly appreciated!
> 
> We need to organise a field trip to a wax factory or find some photos of one. Happy not to know the secret ingredients, but would love to see it all being put together.


Seconded, thats a lot of effort - Thanks.

Trip to a wax factory might be difficult. Steve at Meguiars told us on the recent Megs detailing day that the Megs forumlas are highly confidential and only Chemists and VP's are allowed access to the labs.

He also said that Frank Meguiar (The founder of Meguairs) was not a classic Chemist - he played with stuff, more out of curiosity to see what it did than for any scientific reason, and he stumbled on his first polish formula.

So everyone get their thinking caps on - what could we use that's "outside the box"?

My suggestion would be Pineapple extratc, as I recall frrom my school days that you cannot make jelly with fresh Pineapple - something in the pineapple prevents the gelityn from forming properly so you get a soggy mess rather than a jelly.

Can someone back this up?


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## Guest

Hi guys

Thanks for your kind comments. As you probably all know, my interest is mainly in marketing - the experimenting and manufacture of waxes is a hobby and business that I have fallen into. I only know a fraction of the technical side of wax manufacture compared to my chemists, but can hopefully illuminate a fairly dark and dimly lit corner of the car care world.

There is an awful lot of BS surrounding waxes and that is a shame. As a consumer, you should know what is in the product you buy and what you are paying for. If that is marketing, branding, packaging and a warm feeling inside (the brag factor!) then great. Some people will always want the most expensive product and justify it to themselves for various reasons. Sometimes it's just because they want to feel considerably richer than yowwww! But if you want a fecking good wax for a reasonable sum, then you should have the right to choose it, without being blinded by marketing blather. Carnauba is 1.4p per gramme. Pay for performance for sure. But marketing and packaging should be cost options 

To be honest, a wax factory visit wouldn't be that exciting. Our chemist's factory has melters, stirrers, lots of lab equipment but is not like ICI or anything. Watching wax melt is like watching paint dry. The only reason people don't want you to see them making wax is that the technique is crucial - a small trade secret like Colonel Sander's 106 different spices! But to be honest, even if you knew it, it would only help you make the waxes a certain consistency. You could bash out an unappetising but effective hard wax quite easily with a basic technique. It would also be uneconomic to try and create a very good wax from scratch. Like me, you could do an OK one quite quickly. But making a very, very good one takes a lot of time, money and effort. Put it this way, our initial prototype wax, being readied now, is recipe number 157. WD-40, in comparison, was the 40th recipe they tried! You would spend far more on wasted carnauba, equipment and ingredients, than you'd ever save. I'm only doing it because of Paul at Miracle Detail, and his quest to make great waxes even better. We may need to do another 157 recipes before we get to that stage.  At the moment, we feel the initial waxes will prove extremely strong competition for the market leaders, but in terms of performance they are not leaps ahead. It gets subjective very quickly. We have merely replicated a superwax at a more viable price. Same performance for less money would be a success for us, and should guarantee good sales.

And pineapples? Well, if they were that good they would be in waxes already, believe me. The big battle will be acrylic/polymer synthetic waxes vs natural ones - CD vs vinyl, basically.

Feel free to ask any questions and I'll do what I can to answer them openly, given all the vested interests flying around.

All the best
MA


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## Clark @ PB

haha, considerably richer than yowwwwwwwwwwwwww! totally forgot about that :lol:


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## PRAXXUS

Excellent insight miracle agent, good luck on your formula.

BTW, out of curiosity what brands do you consider "Super waxes", Royale excluded of course, that are top performers but not wallet busting.


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## Guest

PRAXXUS said:


> Excellent insight miracle agent, good luck on your formula.
> 
> BTW, out of curiosity what brands do you consider "Super waxes", Royale excluded of course, that are top performers but not wallet busting.


The 'Z' waxes are good, naturally, but despite Royale being a great wax the price is obviously a bone of contention. The entry Z waxes can be good, but I have found that my pot of Carbon can 'cake' on if not removed swiftly.

The 'S' waxes are very good, being easy to apply/remove and very similar to the Z waxes in all other performance and character. We will simply have to outmarket them and beat them on price 

Other favourites:

- As a good all round wax, P21S has impressed me, but can suffer from 'caking on'. Don't let it overdry. The pots are also shallower than you think!

- Collinite is great for beading and for value. But it smells strongly of some kind of petroleum distillate and comes in lousy tins that I find difficult to open.

We would like the market to make up their own mind with our waxes. If they perform as well as the ones mentioned here but are easier to buff off than some, don't smell horrendous like some, come in nicer packaging than some and offer good, justifiable value, then the market should be kind to us


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## Alex L

miracle agent said:


> - As a good all round wax, P21S has impressed me, but can suffer from 'caking on'. Don't let it overdry. The pots are also shallower than you think!
> 
> - Collinite is great for beading and for value. But it smells strongly of some kind of petroleum distillate and comes in lousy tins that I find difficult to open.


Just to add to the problems I had with these 2.

P21s I didnt like the look of and didnt last very long, I personally would pay the extra £5 and get Pinnacle Signature.

The Collinte, it has to be the tin.

Both waxes I found easy to use, but they could do with a tub the same size as Meguiars #16, that way if you want to apply it via 4" pad, you wont have to scrunch the pad up to get it in the pot.


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## bpsmith

I am more than happy to do so trials for you...


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## Guest

bpsmith said:


> I am more than happy to do so trials for you...


Thank you bp!

We are preparing two types of waxes at the moment, for distribution to detailers so they can try them and give us feedback. We will only have a limited number of these samples but I will work out the best way to run a trial when they are ready. Needless to say, I'm sure this forum will be involved somehow.


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## L200 Steve

miracle agent said:


> Because this was 30g of carnauba, I decided to add 20ml (equivalent to 20g by weight as a general rule) of solvent. In theory, this would mean 30g out of 50g total weight would be carnauba, ie 60% carnauba concentration. (Some solvent evaporates during the melting process, so the concentration is likely to be a little higher, but you get my drift). I used the nastiest, most concentrated solvent I could find... industrial thinners... a mix of toluene, kerosene and something else that would make your eyes water. Orange Oil, Turpentine etc are all a lot less aggressive as solvents. I wanted to use as vicious a solvent as possible to soften the carnauba as much as I could.
> 
> So it shows, there's more to a good wax than just loading it with carnauba. The magic is what the other ingredients are and do!
> 
> Regards
> MA


<Blows away smokescreen>

60 % beeswax + 40% 'nuba by volume.

Pure turpetine as a solvent, but use time to allow the 'nuba and beeswax to soften (2 days in a tupperware jar) - Time honoured hand blended wax formula used by french polishers for centuries:thumb:

Inustrial solvents will both damage the 'nuba plus evapourate too quickly, causing the 'blend' to form a very dry product.

But you knew that anyway:wave:


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## L200 Steve

Neil_S said:


> Fascinating post, I have often thought about this and would like to try, it's just getting started which is the tricky bit.


I've still got some 'kit' in the shed if you're serious mate:thumb:


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## Neil_S

L200 Steve said:


> I've still got some 'kit' in the shed if you're serious mate:thumb:


Thanks mate, I think after reading this I'll pass for the moment!


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## bryand

PRAXXUS said:


> Formula for Making Your Own Car Wax
> You will need:
> 1/2 cup melted carnauba wax
> 2 tbsp melted yellow beeswax
> 2 cups turpentine
> 1 tbsp pine oil


Woodturners and french polishers have been using this recipe for years, for polishing furniture and wooden ornaments. The Carnauba stick I have for polishing turnings (pens, candlesticks etc) is a dirty yellow colour, probably due to the beeswax and lower-grade Carnauba wax it contains. It's also rock hard and I wouldn't let it anywhere near my car paintwork.


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## Guest

L200 Steve said:


> <Blows away smokescreen>
> 
> 60 % beeswax + 40% 'nuba by volume.


Why measure by volume... why not by weight? Far more accurate. How much turpentine are you adding... you'd need at least same again in solvent to create a wax, likely more. This would mean 20% maximum carnauba content, which *I think* would be realistic for a car wax. It would still be quite a hard wax tho', not a nice soft sorbet type wax. I have made plenty of beeswax/carnauba/solvent samples. Orange oil, turps,coconut oil, linseed oil... even made emulsions so I could get water into the mix. 



L200 Steve said:


> Inustrial solvents will both damage the 'nuba plus evapourate too quickly, causing the 'blend' to form a very dry product.
> 
> But you knew that anyway:wave:


Of course you would never use industrial solvents in anything other than an experiment. But even if you use coconut oil as a solvent, which is probably the mildest wax solvent you can use, a 60% concentration of carnauba is still dry and crumbly. But you knew than anyway :wave: 

I used the most aggressive thinners I could find because solvents like turps have mild properties in comparison. If I had made a 60% carnauba content wax using turps as the solvent, the results would be similar (crumbly dry cake) but people would think I had avoided a stronger solvent to get the results I wanted. I didn't and don't. I'm more than happy to make another 60% carnauba wax with whatever solvent suits and photograph the brick! If you want double boilers at dawn, I'll gladly whip mine out 

I am only trying to add a bit of reality to proceedings. I would be interested as a 'wax man' yourself, what the maximum percentage of carnauba you would find to be realistic in a car wax? 20%, 40%, 60% or whatever?

I am not trying to add to any myths with a 'smokescreen' but trying to dispel them. You are in a position to help, perhaps


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## Refined Reflections

My one question after reading this a few times, why select a solvent that will naturally evaporate especially when added to warm wax, surely this is defeating the object of adding a solvent liquid in order to keep it moist.

Bit like adding thinners to paint, makes it flow easier but when it evaporates the paint hardens due to chemicals left behind in the mix.


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## L200 Steve

Thats's the point I was trying to raise Gary. Add to 'fast' a solvent, the solvent evapourates leaving behind just the base material. 'nuba is rock solid as a base material, so it will be a solid when the solvent evapourates off. Kind of like boiling a pan of salt water solution on the stove. The water is the solvent, the salt is the carried material. Boil off all the water off and you end up with a pan of just salt (By boiling the water, you have caused it to evapourate, many solvents are able to evapourate without using any heat.)

The trick with a car wax is to use the mildest of solvents, so that the wax has to be spread as thinly as is possible, so that all of the solvent in the wax is able to slowly evapourate, leaving just the wax left bonded to your paintwork. It's kind of like when you apply a household gloss to the woodwork in your house. Apply too thick a coat of paint in one go, and the coat skins, trapping the solvent underneath keeping the paint soft.


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## burns863

I have been meaning to read this mammoth thread for a while and have now finally got around to it  A LOT of interesting info in here, a good read!

I suppose, all the chemistry aside, it is only humans who have developed the current car waxes on sale by various brands, so with enough time, effort, learning and experimenting it could be done.

To be honest though... I will just stick to buying in :thumb: 

Some really good info Miracle Agent... you have really took the phrase "Share the Wealth" to another level  And it was great to see some pics of your work!

Although I wont be trying any of this myself it will be really good to see anyone elses efforts in creating their own wax and I look forward to hearing any progress that is made 

Dan


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## Andy_N

Firstly . Won't the turps damage the paintwork on your car ? Also is the turps actually a solvent i.e. does it actually dissolve the carnauba , beeswax etc ....?


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## Guest

L200 Steve said:


> Thats's the point I was trying to raise Gary. Add to 'fast' a solvent, the solvent evapourates leaving behind just the base material. 'nuba is rock solid as a base material, so it will be a solid when the solvent evapourates off. Kind of like boiling a pan of salt water solution on the stove. The water is the solvent, the salt is the carried material. Boil off all the water off and you end up with a pan of just salt (By boiling the water, you have caused it to evapourate, many solvents are able to evapourate without using any heat.)
> 
> The trick with a car wax is to use the mildest of solvents, so that the wax has to be spread as thinly as is possible, so that all of the solvent in the wax is able to slowly evapourate, leaving just the wax left bonded to your paintwork. It's kind of like when you apply a household gloss to the woodwork in your house. Apply too thick a coat of paint in one go, and the coat skins, trapping the solvent underneath keeping the paint soft.


Steve, you are right about drying times of different solvents, and the problems with thinners. However, only some of the thinners evaporate during the heating/binding process. As a precaution, I weighed the cake of carnauba that I had made. Now, I accept that I measured 30g fairly roughly and 20 ml of thinners to probably the nearest couple of g or ml. It may also have a different specific density to water, so 20ml may not weigh 20g. But guess what the carnauba cake weighed... 50g, give or take the margin of error as I was doing stuff at home on the stove quickly. So only the smallest amount of thinners failed to bond with the wax and evaporated off. Probably a couple of ml at most.

What I'm trying to say here is that some manufacturers claim carnauba percentage by volume of product as you buy it in the jar, not by solid residue left behind on panels. Thinners are a very fast drying and extremely aggressive solvent, used merely in an experiment to see how soft I could make a 60% carnauba wax. Out of the 50g cake, I put 30g carnauba in and that can't evaporate or run away, so a 60% carnauba wax it was. If I had used coconut oil, less would have evaporated, but it wouldn't have broken down the carnauba so aggressively.

As I say, I am happy to conduct an experiment with 30g carnauba, 20ml coconut oil, pure turpentine, whatever. I know the results will be very similar.

Next issue - yes, solvents are just carriers and leave the wax behind... you have raised a brilliant and valid point. Once evaporated, the carnauba is all that remains. Wonderful. But firstly, this isn't what some manufacturers are claiming - if they said '60% of wax residue is carnauba' they would be telling the truth, I am certain. There is a point of principle there!  Secondly, the carnauba has bonded with the solvent and so you do not leave behind 100% pure carnauba. Beeswax, solvent oils etc are also bonded onto the paint, depending on what the ingredients were apart from the solvent/drying oil.

Last issue... drying times... spreading the wax thinly allows it to dry quicker, but some solvents or drying oils dry faster than others. A slow drying oil or solvent may be very difficult to buff off. If you have made your own coconut oil car wax, you will know exactly what I mean. It smears very easily and doesn't seem to dry (making it difficult to remove by buffing etc.). As for thickness of wax layers, I think evenness of coating and bonding properties make more difference than thickness of coating. A decent drying oil/solvent may allow a thicker layer to be applied anyway, but it then gets buffed off to the bonded layer  This is a point for the chemists really. I am no expert at telling how well something can bond.

All in all, I have never pretended to be anything other than an amateur wax experimenter, but experimented I have. I can't go into too much detail with the advanced waxes the chemists are making as I have no direct experience of them being made - the smokescreen is not deliberate. All I know is that the chemists are using some advanced drying oils/solvents and have left my little experiments someway behind in the results stakes. Good for them. A degree or phD really can pay off, it seems.

PS The gloss analogy was interesting. Drying time isn't really the important factor - it's how well the wax bonds. If it bonds better and faster with a quick drying solvent, this will be better than a slow drying oil. A thin layer and slow drying solvent *should* allow good curing/bonding, but I am not sure this is an absolute rule.

PPS If anyone reading all this is really fascinated about waxes, they are welcome to email me and I will get the carnauba wax, drying oils and double boiler out and they can spend an afternoon with me doing some experiments. 
All the best
MA


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## Guest

Andy_N said:


> Firstly . Won't the turps damage the paintwork on your car ? Also is the turps actually a solvent i.e. does it actually dissolve the carnauba , beeswax etc ....?


The turps is too mild to damage a modern clearcoat paint finish. Yes, turpentine oil is a solvent and dissolves the carnauba solids to form a volatile carnauba-turpentine compound. The volatile turpentine element then evaporates into the atmosphere, leaving behind the carnauba rich residue. All what I have learnt from Wikipedia, obviously  No chemistry phD here. :thumb:


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## L200 Steve

Nice post MA.

The solvent of choice for the automotive wax maker is a difficult decision. Do you go with a reactive solvent, that assists cleaning of the substrate, and thus provides a key for the 'nuba to bond? The more reactive the solvent, like you correctly say, the thicker the layer of 'nuba appliable in a single coat.

Or do you go with a less reactive solvent, that allows for easier application, as it keeps the 'nuba softer for longer. This may cause smearing though. You are also able to apply multiple layers without softening the previous coats.

One would have thought now that we've passed into a new millennium, that more synthetic polymers would be added to the wax to get around the catch 22 situation of solvent choice. Surely the looks of a 'nuba wont be harmed by the addition of man made polymers that add to the longevity.

It's only taking natures solution to an age old problem and modifying it with technology after all.

For what it's worth MA - We are currently playing with a paint high in wax content, beads like crazy too:thumb:


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## Guest

L200 Steve said:


> Nice post MA.
> 
> The solvent of choice for the automotive wax maker is a difficult decision. Do you go with a reactive solvent, that assists cleaning of the substrate, and thus provides a key for the 'nuba to bond? The more reactive the solvent, like you correctly say, the thicker the layer of 'nuba appliable in a single coat.


LOL, it seems I have met someone as sad as me when it comes to playing with waxes  I'm glad I can have a semi-technical discussion with someone who has crumbled some carnauba, so to speak :thumb:

Personally, and it is only personal opinion, I would tend to favour a decent cleansing of the paint surface to prepare it, maybe using a lubricious degreasing agent (orange oil perhaps) mixed with a mild abrasive like kaolin. HD Cleanse or even a cleaner wax could perhaps be a substitute for this. This should clean the surface of dirt and the degreasing agent would allow better contact between wax and paint, minimising the chance of the wax lifting when it dries. Then I would apply the wax, preferably one that would have a certain beeswax proportion as I am sure this is 'stickier' than carnauba. Again, an amateur guess.

As I mentioned before, I am sure wax layer thickness is a bit of a red herring, because you buff it off to the bonded layer. The upper part of the layer simply ends up on your microfibre cloth.



L200 Steve said:


> Or do you go with a less reactive solvent, that allows for easier application, as it keeps the 'nuba softer for longer. This may cause smearing though. You are also able to apply multiple layers without softening the previous coats.


I wonder whether the coconut oil (for example) softens the carnauba to a point that it decreases durability, or the flexibility of it actually helps. It is certainly true that a softer, less aggressive solvent would allow multiple wax layers, but modern solvents can give you the best of both worlds, I believe - being mild enough to allow layering, yet fast-drying enough to allow buffing and bonding. I think this is the answer.



L200 Steve said:


> One would have thought now that we've passed into a new millennium, that more synthetic polymers would be added to the wax to get around the catch 22 situation of solvent choice. Surely the looks of a 'nuba wont be harmed by the addition of man made polymers that add to the longevity.


I think you are right, people have been adding silicones to carnauba waxes for years to improve the performance and properties, so synthetic and natural working together is pretty normal. Polymer waxes are interesting - man made wax should be more perfect than something nature has randomly contrived, but this is something that my chemists have not fully explored yet. Maybe modifying the solvent yields better result more quickly than modifying the wax? I am not sure.



L200 Steve said:


> For what it's worth MA - We are currently playing with a paint high in wax content, beads like crazy too:thumb:


Fantastic! Good luck with it


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## Epoch

Knew i'd seen it somewhere, here is the Zymol reasoning behind ingredients, I know this is for punters but thought it was related to this post.

http://http://www.zymol.com/what'sin.htm


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## Guest

Thanks Epoch. The Montan Oil description is quite classic. I am not sure what the 'German coal black evergreen tree' is. I am more sure that Montan wax and its derivatives comes from an evergreen tree that has been turned into coal by natural processes.

Here's a useful wax link for carnauba, candelilla, etc:

www.woodturningvideosplus.com/wax-finishes.html


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## Jules

One wonders if Ouricury wax would be a good substitite for Carnuba in the development of a wax for dark cars?


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## Epoch

I'm still hopeful that Earwax will be a good one for cars, as i'm sure i can find some of that

Sorry!


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## tones61

bumped for mass reading,:buffer:


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## ABC Detailing

A few very interesting posts there.

Anyone had a go more recently?


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