# New Subscriptions



## WHIZZER (Oct 25, 2005)

Ok well you know we have been trying to look for a solution to the subscriptions of Suppporter's on DW - in respect of the Showroom and the Studio. We have done some research with Detailers, Part Timers and International Detailers.

We have been working on what we think is fair solution to all parties and have come up with the following packages - It will then be moderated in accordance to the below.

The *Full Studio Supporter* Benefits include ( Aimed at UK Full time Detailers)

1) Exclusive access to the Studio section for posting detailed vehicles. (Only paid members of this scheme will be able to do this)
2) Company Name and Logo can appear on all pictures in the Studio Section
3) Homepage link on your profile page.
4) Signature link on forum subject to size and character limit.
5) Increased Private Message Mailbox 250 messages.
6) Exclusive DW Full Supporter Title.
7) Access to "The Detailer" Section including Business advice.
8)Review's of a random Detailer will take place.
9) Details included in need a detailer and regional sections if required.
10) Requirement to be an active member of the community ( Expectations to have active posts in all parts of DW)

Please Note.This is for detailing companies,business and not a place for a e-tailer/Retailer to join to sell products.Please pm if you are unsure if you are able to advertise using this method. Membership to this scheme may be revoked at any time without notice should any detailer be found to be abusing the system.DW have.

We then intend to introduce an *International Supporter* ( Aimed at International Detailers)

1) Exclusive access to the International Studio section for posting detailed vehicles. (Only paid members of this scheme will be able to do this)
2) Company Name and Logo can appear on all pictures in the Studio Section
3) Homepage link on your profile page.
4) Signature link on forum subject to size and character limit.
5) Increased Private Message Mailbox 100 messages.
6) Exclusive International Supporter Title.
7) Access to "The Detailer" Section including Business advice.rrefuse access to this section. Please pm Whizzer once you have joined t get your details add
8) Requirement to be an active member of the community ( Expectations to have active posts in all parts of DW)

We then intend add a *Supporter* only package ( Aimed at Part Timers)

1)Access to 'The Business' forum.
2)Ability to post as many paid details as they want (IN THE SHOWROOM, NOT THE STUDIO, Subject to conditions if deemed Fulltime then subscription will be removed - they may mention customer but no details to be displayed)
3)No signature or weblinks allowed. 
4)Not added to the 'Need a Detailer?' Directory list. 
5)No photos with business names or contact info on display, and not permitted to reply to requests for needing a detailer in any specific area.
6) No increase in Pm allowance
7) Title yet to be decided
8)Requirement to be an active member of the community ( Expectations to have active posts in all parts of DW)

Pricing has yet to be confirmed but will be on a sliding scale. 
Obviously DW will keep the right to refuse anybody or revoke if the rules are not followed


----------



## empsburna (Apr 5, 2006)

Excellent idea.

Will you be introducing criteria to get included in the Full Studio Supporter area?


----------



## WHIZZER (Oct 25, 2005)

Midlands Detailing said:


> Excellent idea.
> 
> Will you be introducing criteria to get included in the Full Studio Supporter area?


Possibly - Insurance etc


----------



## empsburna (Apr 5, 2006)

WHIZZER said:


> Possibly - Insurance etc


I don't mind paying extra for the subscription.


----------



## mattjonescardiff (Dec 12, 2006)

Interesting stuff. 

I welcome the proposals. I'm a part timer, but having my sig and referring to my site is key for me, therefore I would still have to go for the full supporter package. However, I am not insured (looked into it and it's uneconomical at the level of business I undertake) so I would be disappointed if this became a requirement that excluded me from having a sig/weblink/advertising and effectively pushed me backwards.

I trust the DW Executive Board will come up with a good solution!


----------



## Guest (Jan 7, 2010)

All seems a good idea but not sure a supporter should get access to the business section


----------



## VIPER (May 30, 2007)

Pristine Detail said:


> All seems a good idea but not sure a supporter should get access to the business section


Can I ask why you think that?


----------



## Auto Finesse (Jan 10, 2007)

I like the sound of all this, seems a few of the "so called" pros will drop off due to them not having relevant insurances in place.

Im happy to show my insurance details to you personally Bill but im not about to be posting it up for all to see and certain areas would be certainly be blanked out as they are confidential (ie my home address and personal cars that are added to it what i pay etc as its all on two sheets (not that it would affect what your looking for any way but i dont really feel i need to be showing that kind of information to advertise on a forum.

But im really not sure why it should or would be in DW's interest to take on such checks ? and who and who the benefits of such checks would help.

Any thought of a price increases for the full fat pro option, now that the weekeners can have a cheap option maybe get it back t what it was as a more elitist membership.



Pristine Detail said:


> All seems a good idea but not sure a supporter should get access to the business section


Why not, this place is quiet as it is, could do with some decent input.


----------



## Guest (Jan 7, 2010)

That was my initial thought, as in theory shouldn't be a business as such but after Matts post it would clearly affect him and people like him.

Just tell me to shut up


----------



## VIPER (May 30, 2007)

The main priorities here were to preserve the standards you guys all set and make sure the Studio content reflected the level of detailing that you all turn out, without being 'diluted' for want of a better term. But equally to tackle the ongoing issue with people navigating around the rules and posting up what is clearly paid work, albeit only weekend type details, by providing this type of person/s with a proper subscription package that we think caters for their needs without them having to sign up to a the full scheme. By providing them with this, it will allow us to be more strict with anything we deem to be paid work for 'clients'.

We think that we've created sufficient difference between the 2 packages that it should be clear to everyone which provides them with what they want.

Hopefully the overseas package will also solve the increasing number of non UK pros showcasing their work on here for free.


----------



## WHIZZER (Oct 25, 2005)

Nodoby has said their will be a criteria to pay subscriptions i.e insurance - we are trying to gauge what you guys want etc hence somebody asking if a criteria will be part of the subscriptions - We have seen some sites that have criteria and people that fulfill that BUT still get turned down !!!!! - As you have said insurance is really your worry and not ours and As DW is not endorsing anybody its not of our concern to have these details- It was more for you Guys to have perhaps more clout saying you have all the correct insurances etc ...


----------



## Leemack (Mar 6, 2009)

It looks like a great idea


----------



## Auto Finesse (Jan 10, 2007)

WHIZZER said:


> Nodoby has said their will be a criteria to pay subscriptions i.e insurance - we are trying to gauge what you guys want etc hence somebody asking if a criteria will be part of the subscriptions - We have seen some sites that have criteria and people that fulfill that BUT still get turned down !!!!! - As you have said insurance is really your worry and not ours and As DW is not endorsing anybody its not of our concern to have these details- It was more for you Guys to have perhaps more clout saying you have all the correct insurances etc ...


Im not knocking it, as i said im happy to submit my details if needed but i really dont see why DW want to make it there problem thats all.

Anyone without it will surely lose out in the longrun and it will limit some of the bigger contracts they are able to pick up, if not bite them in the a$$ if and when something unfortunate happens.

Just just dont see the point and benefit for DW to take it upon them selfs to make all these checks and keep them upto date (i could show you it now and not renew when it comes around, could be a bit of a palava for someone to have to keep all the checks up to date)



Viper said:


> The main priorities here were to preserve the standards you guys all set and make sure the Studio content reflected the level of detailing that you all turn out, without being 'diluted' for want of a better term. But equally to tackle the ongoing issue with people navigating around the rules and posting up what is clearly paid work, albeit only weekend type details, by providing this type of person/s with a proper subscription package that we think caters for their needs without them having to sign up to a the full scheme. By providing them with this, it will allow us to be more strict with anything we deem to be paid work for 'clients'.
> 
> We think that we've created sufficient difference between the 2 packages that it should be clear to everyone which provides them with what they want.
> 
> Hopefully the overseas package will also solve the increasing number of non UK pros showcasing their work on here for free.


I was chatting to a mate and fellow detailer (supporter on here) and IMO and his the studio is already diluted with sh!tty write ups and most of them from full timers, with blurry pics and the same old cars and process, no one pulls anything new in any more, the "high end" is getting made a midrange, Not that it bothers me much, just makes my work look better but just incase you thought it not already diluted.


----------



## WHIZZER (Oct 25, 2005)

james b said:


> Im not knocking it, as i said im happy to submit my details if needed but i really dont see why DW want to make it there problem thats all.
> 
> Anyone without it will surely lose out in the longrun and it will limit some of the bigger contracts they are able to pick up, if not bite them in the a$$ if and when something unfortunate happens.
> 
> Just just dont see the point and benefit for DW to take it upon them selfs to make all these checks and keep them upto date (i could show you it now and not renew when it comes around, could be a bit of a palava for someone to have to keep all the checks up to date)


James as i have said - this is one reason we didnt have this sort of criteria before - Again as above nobody is saying that there will be any NEW criteria apart from the orginal post and original details to join

Somebody asked the question about it so we will take on board all ideas

:thumb:


----------



## empsburna (Apr 5, 2006)

I'm sorry I asked the question now :lol:


----------



## GlenStaff26 (Mar 10, 2007)

WHIZZER said:


> ......
> 
> We then intend add a *Supporter* only package ( Aimed at Part Timers)
> 
> ...


I like the idea in principal, I make no claims to be upto the standards of some of the 'Pros' on here. Also I am a weekend warrior that to date hasn't gained any work from DW and hasn't posted any write ups in the Showroom section as I appreciated that it isn't on.

However, other than access to the Business section I don't think I would gain anything from being a 'Supporter' based on the above. As stated in my welcome thread, in the future I am looking to become a full time detailer and would hope to gain some work from the site, based on the write ups of upcoming jobs.

So, where would I fit in? Obviously not at the Full Studio Supporter as I'm not full time but if I can't advertise as a basic 'Supporter'.....

Also the type of work I am looking for isn't up there with the full correction/wet sand etc... More the indepth clean, paint cleanse (by machine), seal/wax which I would hope shouldn't have a drastic impact on the local pros etc...Who I see as working on the real exotica and getting some spectacular results.

Perhaps I should change my username to 'Valeted Perfection'


----------



## Auto Finesse (Jan 10, 2007)

^^ Its for you to figure out what one offers the benefits you want / need from the forum, i think you answered your question right there.

You wont get work out of just signing up, but it gives you a platform to use to promote your services, its what you do with it that determines if you get work out of it or not.


----------



## Frothey (Apr 30, 2007)

maybe another option would be sigs and can post in the studio - no increased pm, no "need a detailer" listing and no business section access. I think having "supporter" posts in the showroom will just confuse things with regards to non "supporter"s thinking it's now ok - after all, we have enough problems as it is! the sigs are needed imo, otherwise people will just revert to "suggesting" work in showroom posts and pm'ing people every time there's a "can anyone do" post!

as an aside, do you think people should be judged by their peers (in here) on the studio posts, ie if it really is a poor write up, detail, photo's etc then it can be veto'd? after all, it's meant to be a "shopfront" for detailing as a profession...


----------



## WHIZZER (Oct 25, 2005)

Detailed Perfection said:


> I like the idea in principal, I make no claims to be upto the standards of some of the 'Pros' on here. Also I am a weekend warrior that to date hasn't gained any work from DW and hasn't posted any write ups in the Showroom section as I appreciated that it isn't on.
> 
> However, other than access to the Business section I don't think I would gain anything from being a 'Supporter' based on the above. As stated in my welcome thread, in the future I am looking to become a full time detailer and would hope to gain some work from the site, based on the write ups of upcoming jobs.
> 
> ...


To gain business then i would think the signature etc is a must therefore the full supporter would be where i would go - the plain supporter is aimed to stop those that circumnavigate the rules for advert in the showroom section

If you use t he forum to its full potential then google rankings etc should increase - also talking to those more active on the forum they have gain more than enough to recoup business from the fee - but we want to try and create a better feeling on the forum and get the pros/detailers/supporters/valeters more active on the other sections and also to get a more activity within here especially the international boys who may have adifferent aspect on work and business


----------



## Ti22 (Mar 24, 2009)

Hi Bill, thanks for looking at this. 

Personally, I like the looks of the new system and differentiating between those that detail full time as a profession and those that do it part time. The creation of an international studio is also a good thing, as is getting those guys to support the forum.

Will the criteria for each level be public?

James


----------



## Perfection Detailing (Nov 3, 2007)

All sounds good to me...


----------



## Gleammachine (Sep 8, 2007)

In The Detail said:


> maybe another option would be sigs and can post in the studio - no increased pm, no "need a detailer" listing and no business section access. I think having "supporter" posts in the showroom will just confuse things with regards to non "supporter"s thinking it's now ok -


Agree ^^

I think if part time detailers are posting work in the Showroom then this confuses any potential customers browsing.

Why not keep it simple-

Supporters/Pro's- price and perks as it stands.

International supporters/Pro's- their own section to show of work and access to the business section, no sig but maybe a reduced fee.

**** takers and repeat offenders who are earning from their details and posting up work- take away the priviledge to do so in any section.


----------



## Leemack (Mar 6, 2009)

> **** takers and repeat offenders who are earning from their details and posting up work- take away the priviledge to do so in any section.


Harsh, Yet fair


----------



## Gleammachine (Sep 8, 2007)

Showshine said:


> Harsh, Yet fair


Not really if they have been warned previous or giving the opportunity to support the forum 1st.


----------



## DE 1981 (Aug 17, 2007)

Gleammachine said:


> Agree ^^
> 
> I think if part time detailers are posting work in the Showroom then this confuses any potential customers browsing.
> 
> ...


Thats my view also keeps things simples.


----------



## Phil H (May 14, 2006)

Gleammachine said:


> Agree ^^
> 
> I think if part time detailers are posting work in the Showroom then this confuses any potential customers browsing.
> 
> ...


Totally agree.


----------



## VIPER (May 30, 2007)

Fair points above and all taken on board - thanks :thumb:

But to counter that, don't you think it's a little unfair to make anyone who only does the odd paid detail at the weekend have to pay as much as a full time pro just to let the DW community look at their work? They might not need a sig, or even have a website to link to, or want to be on a directory listing page - they just want to be able to share what they've done with like minded people on here.

Therefore we thought creating a 'lesser' package for them would encourage that to happen, rather than putting a message across that's it's cough up the full price like you were a full time pro or you can't post up anything on DW. There are a hell of a lot of members who fall into this catagory and tbh. if I were one,_ I_ wouldn't want to pay the same as a pro because I'd be stumping up for loads of things I didn't need - I'd just want to be able to post up the odd weekend job, but I _would_ be willing to pay a reduced fee sub to do that, but not the full amount - if that was the only option, then tbh. I'd be taking my work elsewhere, and naturally we don't want that to happen if we can avoid it.

The point raised about possible confusion to visitors and newbies etc. about having 'supporters' work _(read 'part-timers' for that under a new 2 tier system)_ in the Showroom alongside all the other threads, is a valid one and clearly something we need to consider. Obviously all of this, should it take place, would be very well publicised widely across the whole site, to minimise any misunderstanding, but yes I can see the potential issue here so we need to have a think how to get around that.


----------



## WHIZZER (Oct 25, 2005)

Thanks and keep the comments coming - we will look at them and dicuss - a lot of thought and research has gone into the subscriptions - talking to pros / enthusiats / part timers / international detailers to come to this and its alos in direct response to what has been said previous in here 

If we just ban everybody -or stop people posting showroom threads it will be a little bit slow in the showroom section - I think the STUDIO is still the place to see the best details etc -" might even try to make this more prominant" ( WE will look after our our Full time Supporters !)- showroom being amatuer but the thoughts behind this allow those that do something part time still have the ability to post up like the likes of Baker21 that only does his friends cars but does want to be part of the community - these threads will soon be lost and if bumping occurs will be deleted we will be fair but firm.

Also the part timer title will not have supporter we will come up with an appropriate title - perhaps "Donator or Contributor"


----------



## Ti22 (Mar 24, 2009)

I like the 2 tier system, and as viper outlines fits in well with your aims for it (which I agree with)


----------



## Auto Finesse (Jan 10, 2007)

What about a limit on pictures aloud to be posted in one post for the show room (too 30 or 50 ? its like this on alot of forums and its a ***** if you want to spam your write ups about a bit lol,


----------



## Auto Detox (Dec 22, 2007)

like the new ideas above, also can I add the "need a detailer" bits are a bit well .... naff looking, is there something that could be done to make them not a look like a quick shopping list ?


----------



## Auto Detox (Dec 22, 2007)

james b said:


> What about a limit on pictures aloud to be posted in one post for the show room (too 30 or 50 ? its like this on alot of forums and its a ***** if you want to spam your write ups about a bit lol,


Would certainly stop 50 pictures of wheel cleaning & foaming process :lol:


----------



## WHIZZER (Oct 25, 2005)

Auto Detox said:


> like the new ideas above, also can I add the "need a detailer" bits are a bit well .... naff looking, is there something that could be done to make them not a look like a quick shopping list ?


ideas ? im hoping that we can get a link page at the top -

i.e

DW home - forum home - Detailers - traders - user cp - faq


----------



## Detail My Ride (Apr 19, 2006)

Agree with Rob on this one, keeping it simple is key. People at the moment don't seem to understand the system with one supporter option, let alone introducing a whole set of options depending on where you live, how often you detail, whether you are full time or not etc.


----------



## Auto Detox (Dec 22, 2007)

WHIZZER said:


> ideas ? im hoping that we can get a link page at the top -
> 
> i.e
> 
> DW home - forum home - Detailers - traders - user cp - faq


Yeah that would be nice too ! Also how about a simple table layout to incorporate company name, contact details, web link, area covered make the pages look a bit more professional the rest of the site looks great & is coming on great just think the look of the supporter details let it down a bit


----------



## Ti22 (Mar 24, 2009)

I like the max pictures idea, and the new header.


----------



## VIPER (May 30, 2007)

Gaz W said:


> Agree with Rob on this one, keeping it simple is key. People at the moment don't seem to understand the system with one supporter option, let alone introducing a whole set of options depending on where you live, how often you detail, whether you are full time or not etc.


'Key' to what Gaz? With a site as large and complex as this is now, the ideology of 'simplicity' is often impossible on a practical scale unfortunately. Keeping everything 'simple' is often fine in theory but often fails when implemented. To keep it really simple would just be as it is now: one sub whether you're doing this full time as a pro business or doing a paid job once a month, and as we've seen, that model is fraught with problems as we've been seeing. It's all very well attempting to adopt a really hard line with people posting up paid work, but I honestly don't think that 'stick' method is going to work well for DW, and hence we're favouring the 'carrot' approach first :thumb:

It's hardly a 'whole' set of of options - it's one new lower rate package tailored for part-timers. Ignore the overseas package for the minute if that's making all this seem more confusing - that's very easy to manage and tbh. not a huge problem for the site right now, even though it is slightly on the increase.

I don't think it's that people can't understand the current system at all - on the contrary; they understand all too well , but just choose to navigate around it to avoid paying for what others fork out for, which is precisely what these measures are hoping to alleviate.


----------



## Detail My Ride (Apr 19, 2006)

I see your point, however I think introducing more options, as well as complications such as checking insurance etc will over complicate things.


----------



## VIPER (May 30, 2007)

We won't be checking insurances - that's nothing to do with us and potentially opening up a whole other set of issues that we could do without, but all points taken on board, Gaz :thumb:


----------



## empsburna (Apr 5, 2006)

Viper said:


> We won't be checking insurances - that's nothing to do with us and potentially opening up a whole other set of issues that we could do without, but all points taken on board, Gaz :thumb:


Where will the line be drawn? Or if you pay your money you get the full fat option regardless?


----------



## empsburna (Apr 5, 2006)

Viper said:


> We won't be checking insurances - that's nothing to do with us and potentially opening up a whole other set of issues that we could do without, but all points taken on board, Gaz :thumb:


Where will the line be drawn? Or if you pay your money you get the full fat option regardless?


----------



## VIPER (May 30, 2007)

Midlands Detailing said:


> Where will the line be drawn? Or if you pay your money you get the full fat option regardless?


No, for anyone who wants the 'full fat' package, the whole DW staff team come to watch them do a full detail, whilst hurling abuse and heckling them for the entire duration is step one, then step two is....:lol:

Seriously though - not sure yet, we'd have to decide all these details (no pun). It's still at the suggestions/discussion stage at the moment :thumb:


----------



## Dave KG (Feb 23, 2006)

I agree with Rob (Gleammachine) on this one as well, that keeping things simple is very important... a twin-teir system is pretty much a good plan, "Full Fat" and "Semi Skimmed" if you will, but political care ought to be taken in making dividing lines in the sand. 

My "likings" if you will - a cheaper option for those who just post the odd detail here and there are a good thing, something to allow folk to post their work up and perhaps gain a little extra business out of it for their part time side work / entertaining hobby etc. Nice idea, and it does give a softer approach to the "pay up or shut up" that the current system could be perceived as putting out. Depending on price of course... and of course, what percevied benefitsd would be, if it is simply being allowed to post in the Showroom, I see little advantage to that other than the enjoymet of posting - ncie from a social and community point of view, which I perceive this to be aimed at.

My "reservations" if you will. A two-tier system such needs careful handling politically... let us not beat about the bush, there is already a lot of superiority complexes that the current system puts out, and perceived greatness over fellow detailers for example, read this thread and there are examples which make me chuckle rather. Two-tier systems by their nature always run this political gauntlet, irrespective of the hobby/profession/education they find themselves in, but they do need to be carefully handled and what must not happen is that a full DW subscription must not be put across as equalling "the best detailer" - you may wonder why I say this, but there is still an air in reading certain posts that being full time somehow means superiority in quality. There are quite a few "part timers" who's work I hold in the very highest regard  Further one has to also be aware that we run this with no "industry standard benchmark" or "official qualification" to base perceived attainment and streaming on - I mention this simply to make those considering it aware of tenable issues... This links me to what I would perceive as another concern: pricing. Dependant on the proposed costs of various memberships, which I would be most interested to hear ball park figures, you may find yourself pricing out "part timers" who do not fall "part timers" by your above examples - eg, pricing out fully insured part timers who's workload does not a high price benefit or warrant. I see the points of dividing lines but one must exercise great care in their deployment. 

Keeping it simple is the key, as has been mentioned above - irrespective of the size of the forum, something of this nature should be kept as simple as possible to make managing the system as easy as possible, and to aid the understanding of those new/outside/generally-reading the forum.

A few thoughts of an "old-timer" on DW for what they are worth.


----------



## empsburna (Apr 5, 2006)

Viper said:


> No, for anyone who wants the 'full fat' package, the whole DW staff team come to watch them do a full detail, whilst hurling abuse and heckling them for the entire duration is step one, then step two is....:lol:
> 
> Seriously though - not sure yet, we'd have to decide all these details (no pun). It's still at the suggestions/discussion stage at the moment :thumb:


Sounds just like posting a thread in the studio...


----------



## Frothey (Apr 30, 2007)

Viper said:


> But to counter that, don't you think it's a little unfair to make anyone who only does the odd paid detail at the weekend have to pay as much as a full time pro just to let the DW community look at their work? They might not need a sig, or even have a website to link to, or want to be on a directory listing page - they just want to be able to share what they've done with like minded people on here.


but that's my choice isn't it? to be fair, i think you guys know which ones of us are "occasionals" and who are full time pro's - maybe you could just come up with a cheaper payment for those that you KNOW are part time, maybe £100 instead of £150, with some restriction on the amount of posts in the studio and lose the business access/increased pm, etc.

but tbh, if i re-subscribed I really don't think the sub is too much, most are going to get the money back within a detail anyway... i really don't think there are that many people that do it for "beer" money anymore anyway!


----------



## Finerdetails (Apr 30, 2006)

I think this discusssion will go on for soime time, and that Bill, Johnny and the boys will have the final say, tell us how it is and we will either put up, or shut up.

DW has become a huge concept, and with so many followers, users and alike, trying to please everyone all of the time is not an option.

The minute money becomes involved in any discussion, the tone and aims change.

I read and understand what dave KG is saying with regards to full/part timer etc. The split/divide here isnt about quality for me, its about this is my job - this is what I have to do to pay my mortgage - put bread on the table. This isnt a hobby for me. I dont do this to earn back some cash to buy more products, beer etc.

So, I support and back the separation of full and part time detailers. As this stand a new user will look at the site, having been pointed here and trust DW because of its size etc and assume that all supporters are the same, insured, experienced, able to offer all service etc etc. If you look at the current features, where everyone gets everything, a customer will have the perception all are equal.

Having said that, only about 6 or 7 jobs a year come to me from here lol

I look forward to seeing how this develops, and how the costs are weighted against the weighted features the supports get.

many thanks

Iain


----------



## WHIZZER (Oct 25, 2005)

Auto Detox said:


> Yeah that would be nice too ! Also how about a simple table layout to incorporate company name, contact details, web link, area covered make the pages look a bit more professional the rest of the site looks great & is coming on great just think the look of the supporter details let it down a bit


Make me what you are thinking and then pm me and ill see what i can do :thumb:


----------



## mattjonescardiff (Dec 12, 2006)

Finerdetails said:


> I read and understand what dave KG is saying with regards to full/part timer etc. The split/divide here isnt about quality for me, its about this is my job - this is what I have to do to pay my mortgage - put bread on the table. This isnt a hobby for me. I dont do this to earn back some cash to buy more products, beer etc.
> 
> So, I support and back the separation of full and part time detailers. As this stand a new user will look at the site, having been pointed here and trust DW because of its size etc and assume that all supporters are the same, insured, experienced, able to offer all service etc etc. If you look at the current features, where everyone gets everything, a customer will have the perception all are equal.


I totally take your points Iain and understand your position. However, it would be a bit weird for DW to split FTers and PTers purely on that alone. As Dave says, the number of days a week a guy works Detailing doesn't necessarily directly correlate to the quality/experience/any other criteria. Likewise, is a Client really interested in whether Detailing is your sole occupation or not? So because James DJs does that make him a lesser Detailer?

At the end of the day I think clients have to make up their own minds based upon what they see - write-ups, portfolio's, websites stating information about businesses (insurance, date established etc) and make an educated choice. As we've all pointed out - being a Supporter isn't the be all and end all of an 'approved' Detailer.

I think the current proposals will sufficiently distinguish the 'elite' by keeping them in the Studio and giving them an appropriate title like 'Detailing Professional'. Keeping the part-timers etc in the Showroom with a title 'DW Supporter' is appropriate. In my case, much as I'd like to mix it with the Pro's in the Studio, I think this would probably mean I end up in the Showroom. However, I would strongly want to keep showing my sig and weblink. As someone else pointed out earlier, taking this off 'DW Supporters' would result in the continuation of excessive PMing to get work.

'Detailing Professional' level entry could be based upon a higher subs fee, or possibly entry by invitation only from the ranks of the DW Supporters. Would be a bit of work for the Mods but would keep this area elite rather than just pay up and join up. Could we be heading towards Detailing World becoming an official regulating body for Detailing? There's potential there, anyone looked into how this could be done? Or whether we could get Detailer's into something like the Guild of Master Craftsmen?


----------



## WHIZZER (Oct 25, 2005)

Chaps thanks for all the comments - hence why we thought we would add details of proposed plans in here we value your thoughts and comments - Some have helped and others expressed concerns - others hopefully we have answered. 

WE obviously appreciate all the support you have given us and those that have subscribed already ,we have thought about Grandfather rights etc etc .... so watch this space this might happen

As far as the full fat package is concerned once i get my tech man working at full steam we have some hopefully new options that will enhance this package and that will not be avaliable to the other packages etc - this might be the new header - with a link off - or maybe even on a new site ! So bear with us on this one - Something that isnt in the package but we have given as an FOC is the top header - We have been offered a lot of money for this but have turned it down on several occasions opting to keep this for our detailers - (obviously we have the right to remove this or change like the poppy banner as and when) 

Its very difficult trying to please everybody 100% of the time - I think at DW we try our best , with new ideas , our mod team and the general running of the site - we seem to be one of the friendliest forums on the net with our slightly laid back approach ( firm but fair) whilst keeping things a happy medium. 

I dont want to give the mods any more work ( by the way did i say you do a great job) and these are to try and make it easier for everybody

We are looking at some great new things - I have meetings planned at some new manufacturers etc - ( hoping this may benefit you guys !). Also google rankings should be good if you use the forum to ist full potential - im not that techie but i got told we get google index 50,000+ times a day !

If anybody has some ideas they think will benefit any of our members - Supporters - or even feedback on the site then please feel free to let me know - I'll try and answer anything personally or even talk to you on the phone 

I know one Supporter has asked if they can show off other work they do which once they have asked I looked at and said sure if it will bring you more work then go for it .... 

So please believe me when i say we are trying to do the best for the members and forum.

Ramble over


----------



## Dave KG (Feb 23, 2006)

To expand a little on the relevant cost issue which I raised last night, and further to what Iain has said above... as it currently stands, with all things being equal, one could be forgiven for assuming that looking at the supporters list, all supporters are equal on the face of it. A quick look through the studio depending on opinion may be used as a separater so to speak. So to one end, a divider could be seen as a good thikng but I would still urge a degree of caution as to how this divider is put in place and what messages it will send out.

For example, if the main deciding factor as to who is "full fat" and who is "semi skimmed", which as is being implied above would be seen as a separater in terms of ability (as this is, quite naturally, how it will be assumed to the everyday user despite what the older crew will view), is cost and who can afford to pay it and who cannot then this to me should be exercised very carefully as this will not put a divide in in terms of quality. The ultimate result will be "pricing-out" of the "elite" club on a basis of whether or not you can pay/afford/full-time - and this will certainly not give a divide that in any way reflects the relevant skill bases of all involved, which is how the divide will be seen from the outside viewer. 

If the price of "full-fat" was raised significantly over the current "supporters" fee tag, then I for one would not be able to afford it/warrant it - so technically speaking I would be "priced out" along with other part time detailers, loosing perhaps some benefits I currently have from my supporters tag in addition to concerns raised above re: perceptions. Whether you beleive this would be fair or not is naturally a matter of perspective and I realise as with all walks of life that "money talks", and is often used (intentionally or not) as the separater. I do still personally believe that if there is to be what is described above as making a more "elite" club, then there has to be other factors considered as well as simply how much you can throw at the forum financially, but then this brings us back to how one would judge a detailer's worthiness to be in an "elite" club or not given we have no industry standard benchmarks against which to judge.


----------



## Auto Finesse (Jan 10, 2007)

mattjonescardiff said:


> So because James DJs does that make him a lesser Detailer?


Yer but im not a pro Dj as its not my main source of income, its my hobby, im a ammeter, i work mon-friday 9-5 as a detailer thats my profession, say if im doing something music related like studio time etc my business is still open and running as i have employes  DJing is my hobby, ok i make a few quid ut of it too but its not a patch on what i put in (quite close to 50K at last guess for studio equiptment and just brought me some CDJ 2000's:argie see i understand the difference, my profession is car detailing, my hobby is Dance music and DJing, your not a pro at something if you earn the main % of a living from something else.

Trust me if i could earn my living from chatting sh!t on Radio and playing in clubs all week i doubt id clean another car apart from my own again (stuff that acttually id be earning enough to have one of you lot do it for me :lol

But i dont.

Im sure im not the only one on here with a hobby, as belive it or ot cleaning cars for me is not a hobby, its a job.


----------



## WHIZZER (Oct 25, 2005)

Dave KG said:


> To expand a little on the relevant cost issue which I raised last night, and further to what Iain has said above... as it currently stands, with all things being equal, one could be forgiven for assuming that looking at the supporters list, all supporters are equal on the face of it. A quick look through the studio depending on opinion may be used as a separater so to speak. So to one end, a divider could be seen as a good thikng but I would still urge a degree of caution as to how this divider is put in place and what messages it will send out.
> 
> For example, if the main deciding factor as to who is "full fat" and who is "semi skimmed", which as is being implied above would be seen as a separater in terms of ability (as this is, quite naturally, how it will be assumed to the everyday user despite what the older crew will view), is cost and who can afford to pay it and who cannot then this to me should be exercised very carefully as this will not put a divide in in terms of quality. The ultimate result will be "pricing-out" of the "elite" club on a basis of whether or not you can pay/afford/full-time - and this will certainly not give a divide that in any way reflects the relevant skill bases of all involved, which is how the divide will be seen from the outside viewer.
> 
> If the price of "full-fat" was raised significantly over the current "supporters" fee tag, then I for one would not be able to afford it/warrant it - so technically speaking I would be "priced out" along with other part time detailers, loosing perhaps some benefits I currently have from my supporters tag in addition to concerns raised above re: perceptions. Whether you beleive this would be fair or not is naturally a matter of perspective and I realise as with all walks of life that "money talks", and is often used (intentionally or not) as the separater. I do still personally believe that if there is to be what is described above as making a more "elite" club, then there has to be other factors considered as well as simply how much you can throw at the forum financially, but then this brings us back to how one would judge a detailer's worthiness to be in an "elite" club or not given we have no industry standard benchmarks against which to judge.


Dave we will look after those that have supported us until now :thumb:. I have always appreciated those that help get DW started and try to look after those that really gave us the kick start we needed - New Supporters though that may be different and they may have to pay more.

At the moment the thinking behind Any raise in "full package" will not be substantial as we know you all have business's to run etc - I know for a Fact that a lot of other forums charge a lot more than what we offer here for £150which is cheap in the run of things working out to be £2.89 a week ! I struggle to get Lunch for that somedays.

Again we are discussing this in the mods room and will endeavour to get it right.:thumb:


----------



## Dave KG (Feb 23, 2006)

james b said:


> your not a pro at something if you earn the main % of a living from something else.


I couldn't agree less with that comment.

The wide use of the term profession, which some do not agree with is:

"More widely: any occupation by which a person regularly earns a living."
(source OED, last access date 08/01/2010)

If one regularly earns a living, ie money, from work then they can be described as doing it as a profession, a professional, irrespective of whether or not it is a main source of income. You could have two or three professions under your belt, it matters not whether it is the majority of your earnings.

The "actual" definition of profession of course is..

"An occupation in which a professed knowledge of some subject, field, or science is applied; a vocation or career, especially one that involves prolonged training and a formal qualification. Also occas. as mass noun: occupations of this kind."
(source OED, last access date 08/01/2010)

By this definition, detailing would be a _vocation_. There is not mention of % time spent doing one thing or another, simply your abilities, your knowledge is what defines your "professional" status if you do earn any form of money from it.

It matters not whether you are part time, or full time, whether its partly a hobby or not - if you earn money from something, especially something you have a professed knowledge of, it is a profession, you are a "pro".


----------



## VIPER (May 30, 2007)

Chaps, whilst the definition of what's a 'professional' has some degree of merit in this discussion, considering the 2 protagonists here, can I respectfully ask that we don't have this thread go off on a tangent, please 

This whole matter is a serious one, and we do want to get it right - hence opening this up in here for suggestions - and as it's starting to get quite complex with new angles to consider opening up, in a similar way to how some have called for a level of simplicity to prevail in any new system; can we also try and keep this thread as simple and on track as we can? 

Cheers


----------



## Auto Finesse (Jan 10, 2007)

Thats cos it dont go in your favor Dave, you never agree with anything that dont suit you, generally someones profession is there day job. 

If a kid plays fotty and his mum pays him a fiver for every match he plays that makes him a professional football player in your eyes then?

All you want to do is pick things apart till nothing is relevant any more its pointless trying to have a conversation with you about anything.


----------



## Frothey (Apr 30, 2007)

mattjonescardiff said:


> Could we be heading towards Detailing World becoming an official regulating body for Detailing? There's potential there, anyone looked into how this could be done? Or whether we could get Detailer's into something like the Guild of Master Craftsmen?


I doubt it - after all, if DW went that route will they be accountable if there is a dispute? Who's going to be judge and jury in terms of standards? After all, we know how good some manufacturer "approved" work is.....

I agree with James though, there got to be some way of distinguishing between full time "pro's" and not so full time "pro's"; whilst some on here will admit to being weekend only, not insured, etc, their websites don't exactly make it clear - but I guess that's their perogative.....


----------



## Dave KG (Feb 23, 2006)

james b said:


> Thats cos it dont go in your favor Dave, you never agree with anything that dont suit you, generally someones profession is there day job.
> 
> If a kid plays fotty and his mum pays him a fiver for every match he plays that makes him a professional football player in your eyes then?
> 
> All you want to do is pick things apart till nothing is relevant any more its pointless trying to have a conversation with you about anything.


See Viper's post above James... If you feel I am as described above, disagreeing with things because they "don't suit" me, then you clearly do not know me very well 

If you think all I do is pick things apart, clearly you do not read the vast majority of my posts here.

You, as usual, have failed to see the deeper meaning of my post as you example of the kid playing football highlights... Now rather than go into one of your playground battle war of words, James, I am going to respect Viper's wishes here and return this thread to its discussion. I believe all points I have raised in my above posts are relevant


----------



## VIPER (May 30, 2007)

Can we get back to the matter in hand please? - it is rather important in the future of DW, so as we've said, we'd like to get it right and to suit as many people as realistically possible 

Thanks gents :thumb:


----------



## The Detail Doctor (Feb 22, 2008)

james b said:


> Thats cos it dont go in your favor Dave, you never agree with anything that dont suit you, generally someones profession is there day job.
> 
> If a kid plays fotty and his mum pays him a fiver for every match he plays that makes him a professional football player in your eyes then?
> 
> All you want to do is pick things apart till nothing is relevant any more its pointless trying to have a conversation with you about anything.


That's a little harsh, tactfull as ever I see!!!! Did somebody get out of the wrong side of the bed?

Back OT, I think in theory the idea is a good one, obviously the details (no pun intended) need to be ironed out.


----------



## Auto Finesse (Jan 10, 2007)

DW is losing all the top detailers and gaining a tone of wanabi armchair experts, why cos you pay up on here and as a propper business get put in the same category as some bloke doing 50 quidders out the boot of his car at the weekends and after he finishes work in the iT department.



Dave KG said:


> See Viper's post above James... If you feel I am as described above, disagreeing with things because they "don't suit" me, then you clearly do not know me very well
> 
> If you think all I do is pick things apart, clearly you do not read the vast majority of my posts here.


Nope your right i dont read many of your posts as some are just to long :tumbleweed:


----------



## Dave KG (Feb 23, 2006)

james b said:


> Nope your right i dont read many of your posts as some are just to long :tumbleweed:


Excellent... I rest my case... now back on topic for the benefits of forum, shall we


----------



## Brazo (Oct 27, 2005)

Gentlemen, yes you James :wave: please return this discussion to topic.


----------



## mattjonescardiff (Dec 12, 2006)

The fact this thread has gone off topic shows that the current proposals are good and don't need too much debating. 

It all comes down to moola doesn't it. The pricing just has to be right to filter people as well as possible. The lower price has to encourage weekenders/pro valeters who do the odd Detail to cough up something. This would then stop some of this group jumping up to 'pro' level with the potential disbenefits that can bring for the 'pros'.


----------



## RedCloudMC (Jul 19, 2008)

Having just read this thread for the first time, I do agree that a 'full fat' as it seems to have become known and a lower tier is a good idea. Whether it is right to make this distinction between those that are full time and those that are part time is not as clear though in my eyes. 

Take us for example, TPCL is a well known and long established car care company/distributor etc. Mike Milbourne is full time and runs the business from our unit in Newcastle. I on the other hand am currently mobile in the south and splitting my week between this and my other business. So would we be part time or full time then? I'm the one who monitors this site and places posts - the part timer.

I am happy to pay extra if needs be but I fear that any distinction made purely by FT v PT debate is not necessarily the right way forward. As for definitions of professionalism that is for our clients to decide surely!

I will give it some more thought but those are my initial thoughts.

Cheers
Mark


----------



## VIPER (May 30, 2007)

To be perfectly honest, the PT v FT defining factor wasn't really in our minds when we proposed this new twin level sub set up - it was more to try and cure a long standing problem we have of people doing paid work and showcasing it on here when others pay for the same. 

As I touched on in an earlier post; there are 2 ways to go here - the carrot or the stick method, and to be perfectly blunt, the stick method is FAR easier to implemement on the site, and personally I'd have no issues whatsoever with removing every deemed paid detail on here accompanied by a PM to say, in essence: "Here's the subs link - use it or you don't get to post any more of your work on here...period". 

But that's hardly the atmosphere we want on DW, and so we thought the 'carrot' method of creating a new lower rate (and lesser privileged) 'supporter' sub would encourage these rule bending members to come aboard in an official capacity. 

Of course there's going to be individuals who will still not want to pay anything, and we will have no choice but to be far sterner with them. There will also be those who are unsure about if they fit the criteria for package A or package B - in these cases we are perfectly happy to discuss with them on a one to one basis which more suits their personal circumstances :thumb:

I think, once we've ironed out the exact specifics of what each package offers, and decided on the correct price struture, it should be fairly easy for the majority to identify which one they require - hopefully.


----------



## mattjonescardiff (Dec 12, 2006)

Is it worth running a poll in here to identify how many current supporters would choose each category? Would give the DW Exec. Board an idea of the situation.


----------



## RedCloudMC (Jul 19, 2008)

mattjonescardiff said:


> Is it worth running a poll in here to identify how many current supporters would choose each category? Would give the DW Exec. Board an idea of the situation.


good call...


----------



## Dave KG (Feb 23, 2006)

mattjonescardiff said:


> It all comes down to moola doesn't it. The pricing just has to be right to filter people as well as possible. The lower price has to encourage weekenders/pro valeters who do the odd Detail to cough up something. This would then stop some of this group jumping up to 'pro' level with the potential disbenefits that can bring for the 'pros'.


But do you really want to filter people on price given the perceptions that the two-tier system will invariably put across? This, to me, leads to a "buy-in" elite club so to speak.


----------



## Frothey (Apr 30, 2007)

...and also invariably some will think of "full fat" as better detailers than the "lite" supporter's - which in some case they will!

that's why it's better to have one visible "DW supporter" tag, but two levels of priveleges which no-one else will be aware of. isn't it?

the poll's a bit pointless without knowing what the criteria are - you might vote as a "lite" but then find out it just means you can say "customer" in the showroom....


----------



## RedCloudMC (Jul 19, 2008)

once the guys know what each version will include then a poll is a very good idea in my opinion.

Agree 100% with the point about showing just one 'DW Supporter' tag so as not to distinguish. General public perception would see one as inferior to the other for sure.


----------



## VIPER (May 30, 2007)

Yes, the point raised about a supporter's title, is a valid one and definitely something we'd need to maybe think about again. As it's quite correct; in the eyes of the public, they will surely make a differentiation between two titles based on detailing ability, rather than if the person does it as their main occupation or otherwise.


----------



## mattjonescardiff (Dec 12, 2006)

Dave KG said:


> But do you really want to filter people on price given the perceptions that the two-tier system will invariably put across? This, to me, leads to a "buy-in" elite club so to speak.


Money is the only way to easily divide people up Dave. Top Detailers generally charge top money and can afford to pay a higher sub. Other Detailers (for whatever reason - part time/rubbish/one arm) won't be able to charge clients as much and will therefore be less justified to go for full fat. Thats where the semi will be suited to them. I know it isn't flawless for people like yourself who are PT but operate at top pro standard but the mods have to cater for the majority otherwise things would get too complicated to run. Besides, if people are PT then they don't need to mix it with the 'Pro's' to generate as much business etc so they shouldn't be too bothered about accepting a second tier.

Yes, top tiering won't definitely guarantee a certain standard, but someone forking out the money without the skills to back it up would be wasting their own time/money rather than anyone elses.


----------



## Baker21 (Aug 7, 2007)

Been reading this with great interest and as a new 'DW Supporter' then I can only really add to this from my viewpoint, which I appreciate may not be as welcome considering only recently joining........

From my point of view it's clear that there are some users on here that detail for a living and some that don't, I fall into the later category and therefore had a long PM thread with Whizzer asking as too how becoming a 'DW Supporter' would benefit me........

I informed Whizzer that I didn't want to add any advertisement in my signature or be added to a list where I could be contacted as a detailer, I have never had one vehicle from DW as it's not what I am looking for, just friends and family friends, I also said that I don't class my work as highly as the users that do this for a living so would prefer to keep my posts out of the Studio as I don't think it's fair............

Being classed differently for me is not a problem and I don't think it really matters but I think that whatever decision on 'grouping' is made then those users that detail for a living should be consulted as I am sure they have put a lot of money into DW over the years.........:thumb:

Will keep reading and looking out for Polls, etc to see what is decided............


----------



## VIPER (May 30, 2007)

Baker21 - your viewpoint is as valid and worthwhile as anyone elses in this thread :thumb: apart from the staff's of course (joke ). In fact, if I might be so bold, your situation is exactly representative of the kind of detailer we aim to attract to the new 'second level' subs package, so your opinion on this is equally as important as that from a full time pro with a unit and so on - we're aiming to please both types of member to the best of what's practically achievable :thumb:


----------



## Baker21 (Aug 7, 2007)

Viper said:


> we're aiming to please both types of member to the best of what's practically achievable :thumb:


That will be a tough job for sure mate and rather you than me, obviously no-one want's to loose out on any changes so it's paramount to keep those of a long standing nature on here the happiest and those new that wish to join can make their own decision.........:thumb:

For me as I said the title and the priviledges aren't too much of a concern but I have found some interesting help topics with the access to the 'Business' section.........:thumb:


----------



## Frothey (Apr 30, 2007)

mattjonescardiff said:


> Money is the only way to easily divide people up Dave. Top Detailers generally charge top money and can afford to pay a higher sub.


but why - and bear in mind I'm an occasional too - should the "top" guys be asked to pay more, unless there are a raft of extra benefits over and above what they have now? Plus the best detailer in the world living in the wild's of Wales won't be able to charge what an "average" detailer in the south-east....


----------



## Dave KG (Feb 23, 2006)

RedCloudMC said:


> once the guys know what each version will include then a poll is a very good idea in my opinion.
> 
> Agree 100% with the point about showing just one 'DW Supporter' tag so as not to distinguish. General public perception would see one as inferior to the other for sure.





In The Detail said:


> ...and also invariably some will think of "full fat" as better detailers than the "lite" supporter's - which in some case they will!
> 
> that's why it's better to have one visible "DW supporter" tag, but two levels of priveleges which no-one else will be aware of. isn't it?
> 
> the poll's a bit pointless without knowing what the criteria are - you might vote as a "lite" but then find out it just means you can say "customer" in the showroom....


I agree with this, and the sentiment behind it - it is important not to publically differntiate between detailers in such a fashion especially if it is indeed money that draws the deciding line - money earned from, and skill level applied to, are certainly not directly proportional  Such a differentiation would most certainly imply this to the general eye.



mattjonescardiff said:


> Money is the only way to easily divide people up Dave. Top Detailers generally charge top money and can afford to pay a higher sub. Other Detailers (for whatever reason - part time/rubbish/one arm) won't be able to charge clients as much and will therefore be less justified to go for full fat. Thats where the semi will be suited to them. I know it isn't flawless for people like yourself who are PT but operate at top pro standard but the mods have to cater for the majority otherwise things would get too complicated to run. Besides, if people are PT then they don't need to mix it with the 'Pro's' to generate as much business etc so they shouldn't be too bothered about accepting a second tier.
> 
> Yes, top tiering won't definitely guarantee a certain standard, but someone forking out the money without the skills to back it up would be wasting their own time/money rather than anyone elses.


Indeed I do agree is is the _easiest_ way, but I would certainly be loathe to say that it is the _correct_ way - back again to public perception of the tier system, if one can throw money at the system and invaribaly some can while others cannot, then yuo get the top-tier status which to the general eye implies the better detailer... yet, it completely misses the actual skill level of the detailer concerned. This of course leaves things wide open to abuse - imagine a top-tier detailer in Detailing World putting out substandard work, this would (whether its anything to do with the forum or not) look bad on the system without a shoadow of a doubt to the general public. You only need to read th recent threds re: Drive & Shine, a Detailing World supporter and whether said publically or not, you can see the air of "DW Supporter - what's DW going to do about this?" in his posts.

All points to consider.


----------



## Dave KG (Feb 23, 2006)

In The Detail said:


> but why - and bear in mind I'm an occasional too - should the "top" guys be asked to pay more, unless there are a raft of extra benefits over and above what they have now? Plus the best detailer in the world living in the wild's of Wales won't be able to charge what an "average" detailer in the south-east....


As my post above, I do agree with you - it is the _easiest_ way, but for me, it certainly is not the _correct_ way... unless to the viewing public, there is no difference as discussed above and its the behind the scenes benefits that are active...


----------



## VIPER (May 30, 2007)

Pretty loose analogy here, but it's all I can draw upon at this juncture: I guess it's a little like a car magazine. Their primary advertising spots are on the back cover and inside front and rear, and naturally, whilst I don't know the figures for any publication, it will be top money and way in excess of having say a 'quarter' page ad in their classifieds. Now theoretically speaking, both spots - the prime ones and the 'small' ads could be taken up by businesses in the same area; say, someone selling aftermarket alloy wheels for eg. Now the larger company, able to afford a back cover full page, doesn't necessarily make the better wheels, or have better customer service, prices or whatever than the small company who can only afford the small ad, but it's just how these things work unfortuntately, and there's always going to be the risk of the public viewing the big money spender as the 'better' outfit - rightly or wrongly.

Now I know that's not quite the same thing as detailers advertising with us, and I might well think of a better analogy at a later date. 

As for how that relates to DW, I can see both sides of this with equal empathy if I'm being honest. 

Detailer 'A' is proud of his work and his detailing business is his No.1 priority and only means of income, so understandably he's not keen on sharing 'status' and 'Studio' thread space with members who might not possess the skills to rightfully call themselves a 'pro detailer', yet who can afford the 'full fat' sub, (as it seems we're terming it for the sake of this discussion.)

Then there's Detailer 'B' who has arguably the same skill set as any of his peers yet, due to not detailing for a living, can't justify the outlay of signing up to the 'full fat' package, so is forced to go with the 'semi-skimmed' option, yet with that, be viewed in the public arena as being somewhat less skilled in detailing than those with the 'full fat' title under their name.

Tricky situation for sure, and as said, I can see both sides of this.

Bottom line, is we have to do something as carrying on with the same single option sub package we have now, means we have no option but to adopt a really hard line with those who don't sign up, and as stated earlier on, we really don't think that's the way to go and would damage the community that's been built up on here over the years, hence suggesting this twin level proposal.

I think we need to finalise exactly what each package will offer in the Mod's section and then come back here with that info for a vote, maybe?


----------



## Frothey (Apr 30, 2007)

Viper said:


> I think we need to finalise exactly what each package will offer in the Mod's section and then come back here with that info for a vote, maybe?


Sounds good, after all it's all guesswork from our point until we know what the packages are!


----------



## Leemack (Mar 6, 2009)

I look forward to the results - Sits here wondering


----------



## Auto Detox (Dec 22, 2007)

WHIZZER said:


> Make me what you are thinking and then pm me and ill see what i can do :thumb:


To be honest Bill it would look pretty ****e, if I had the ability I would no worries, sorry mate


----------



## WHIZZER (Oct 25, 2005)

Auto Detox said:


> To be honest Bill it would look pretty ****e, if I had the ability I would no worries, sorry mate


Ok no worries perhaps list what you think need to be included and we can go from there


----------



## WHIZZER (Oct 25, 2005)

whilst not conclusive this is what we came up originally 

he Full Studio Supporter Benefits include ( Aimed at UK Full time Detailers) 

1) Exclusive access to the Studio section for posting detailed vehicles. (Only paid members of this scheme will be able to do this)
2) Company Name and Logo can appear on all pictures in the Studio Section
3) Homepage link on your profile page.
4) Signature link on forum subject to size and character limit.
5) Increased Private Message Mailbox 250 messages.
6) Exclusive DW Full Supporter Title.
7) Access to "The Detailer" Section including Business advice.
8)Review's of a random Detailer will take place.
9) Details included in need a detailer and regional sections if required.
10) Requirement to be an active member of the community ( Expectations to have active posts in all parts of DW) 

Please Note.This is for detailing companies,business and not a place for a e-tailer/Retailer to join to sell products.Please pm if you are unsure if you are able to advertise using this method. Membership to this scheme may be revoked at any time without notice should any detailer be found to be abusing the system.DW have.

We then intend add a Supporter only package ( Aimed at Part Timers)

1)Access to 'The Business' forum.
2)Ability to post as many paid details as they want (IN THE SHOWROOM, NOT THE STUDIO, Subject to conditions if deemed Fulltime then subscription will be removed - they may mention customer but no details to be displayed)
3)No signature or weblinks allowed. 
4)Not added to the 'Need a Detailer?' Directory list. 
5)No photos with business names or contact info on display, and not permitted to reply to requests for needing a detailer in any specific area.
6) No increase in Pm allowance
7) Title yet to be decided
8)Requirement to be an active member of the community ( Expectations to have active posts in all parts of DW) 

Ultimately this will mirror the UK full supporter We then intend to introduce an International Supporter (Aimed at International Detailers) 

1) Exclusive access to the International Studio section for posting detailed vehicles. (Only paid members of this scheme will be able to do this)
2) Company Name and Logo can appear on all pictures in the Studio Section
3) Homepage link on your profile page.
4) Signature link on forum subject to size and character limit.
5) Increased Private Message Mailbox 100 messages.
6) Exclusive International Supporter Title.
7) Access to "The Detailer" Section including Business advice.rrefuse access to this section. Please pm Whizzer once you have joined t get your details add
8) Requirement to be an active member of the community ( Expectations to have active posts in all parts of DW)

so this is what we came up with - we seem to have lots of good ideas so come chaps lets see you list of Full/Part time - I still believe there needs to be two levels of support


----------



## Finerdetails (Apr 30, 2006)

thats seems fine to me Bill. I agree with james's suggestion with regards to pic restricted to a set fighure, eg 30 per post.


----------



## DE 1981 (Aug 17, 2007)

That looks like a deent system Bill.

Gav


----------



## RedCloudMC (Jul 19, 2008)

There are clear differences between the two and I'd be interested to find out about proposed fee differences once you have a better idea.

To refer back to my earlier post...it would cause TPCL some problems for sure. I'm part time (for now, my other business is close to self sufficient so this may change) whereas Mike is full time. It we posted Mike's details in the Showroom..he's FT, if we posted mine in the Studio, I'm PT....maybe it's just the end of a long day and I'm tired...but I just foresee us defining ourselves under this scheme as problematic.

Having said that, we don't post details anyway so what am I blathering on about!  However, we had intended to change this this year as my time becomes ever more focussed on the detailing side.

However, I do applaud and support what you're trying to achieve and our personal circumstance is down to us to sort out. 

I look forward to hearing other people's views.

Mark


----------



## Dave KG (Feb 23, 2006)

WHIZZER said:


> whilst not conclusive this is what we came up originally
> 
> he Full Studio Supporter Benefits include ( Aimed at UK Full time Detailers)
> 
> ...


Looking at this currently, I see the Full Fat version looks pretty much equivalent to the current supporters while the Semi Skimmed version is simply the ability to post obvious paid details in the Showroom... Clear distinctions are being made between the relevant statuses which furthers my above mentioned concerns with regard to general perception.

Speaking personally, if I were choosing between the two above options, I would be aiming at the Full Fat version (despite being just part time), as I enjoy posting my work in the Studio, and I get referals directly from having a signature on the forum where I also carry my guides links too. Yet, I am only part time so naturally large increases in cost here would make this option prohibitive, so what is the likely story with regards to costs? Will I and others, on account of being simply part time with less business disposable cash, be priced out of this more "elite" club that has in the past benefited us? As the semi-skimmed version shows little of interest to me, especially if there is a photograph limit which would limit the amount of detail (which, regardless of opinion here, is appreciated by newer users to the forum who I always strive to assist) I can put into the writeups.

What is the requirements to be an "active member of the community"? I know on the face of it what is generally being meant here, but you could cite examples of full supporters who only really post in the studio and little else currently, and those who are very active forum members as well as posting in the studio... would the former be allowed to be "full-fat" members, if they are willing to pay the subs?


----------



## Phil H (May 14, 2006)

Have the 3 or 4 optional subscription packages in place. Then its up to the individual which one he or she wants to pay for and subscribe to. 

e.g if a new member joins up and chooses to pay the full package even if they dont have a company, web site anything, are you going to stop them?


----------



## Auto Finesse (Jan 10, 2007)

Cor dear no one is trying to put forward anything other than what would benifit them personally. 

IMO the Management of the forum should just decide what the score is and what its going to cost, then each member has a choice. 

At the end of the day they are not going to put together custom packages for each and every single personal situation are they



And i personally feel the full fat version aimed at business users should be a bit more expensive.


----------



## RedCloudMC (Jul 19, 2008)

james b said:


> Cor dear no one is trying to put forward anything other than what would benifit them personally.
> 
> IMO the Management of the forum should just decide what the score is and what its going to cost, then each member has a choice.
> 
> ...


Neither should they put individual packages together. I agree, decide what they are and then let people decide. But sounding out the existing members is a key part of their decision and as such, everyone has the right to post their thoughts and concerns.

That's not a dig at you either James so please don't take it that way.


----------



## VIPER (May 30, 2007)

Oh, the 'full fat' option will be a LOT more expensive - don't worry about that  How else am I going to get that 911 GT3 this year? :lol:

That was joke, clearly, to try and break the tension a little in here. We haven't decided on the pricing structure for definite yet, but there are figures on the table in the Mod's room that we'll be discussing :thumb:


----------



## Auto Finesse (Jan 10, 2007)

RedCloudMC said:


> Neither should they put individual packages together. I agree, decide what they are and then let people decide. But sounding out the existing members is a key part of their decision and as such, everyone has the right to post their thoughts and concerns.
> 
> That's not a dig at you either James so please don't take it that way.


No i understand that but there has only been one or two people post any ideas that they dont 100% benefit from.

Actually Rob (GM) is about the only one who has.

To be honest, it dont really matter much to me, il go for what ever package suits my business needs.

I just dont see the need for long posts with personal situations.

Go to advertise on any other forum and they will say theres your choices, heres the break down of what you get for each one, take your pic (most forums have 3-5 options from contributor, to trader) they dont give a monkeys if your full time part time, semi time, what ever else, you pic the one that fits your needs and budget.


----------



## Gleammachine (Sep 8, 2007)

Blimey this has moved on a bit, have I been the only one working today? lol



Finerdetails said:


> thats seems fine to me Bill. I agree with james's suggestion with regards to pic restricted to a set fighure, eg 30 per post.


Is this for full supporters or the P/T supporter?

I don't think pictures should be limited, personally I'd struggle to comply with that, when I do a write-up it's generally a proper one from start to finish, I try to limit myself to 2-4 a month due to time constraints and it taking roughly 2-3 hours of my time to construct one properly.
Would it not be better for everyone to show piece a proper write-up and limit this to a max of 4 a month, this would enable more front page coverage and exposure.
If I'm honest and this is not directed at anyone, I get a little disheartened after spending a fair bit of time producing a write-up for it to be of the front page within 2 days because others are posting pretty much every job with 5-10 pictures showing barely anything.


----------



## VIPER (May 30, 2007)

Personally, I wouldn't support a restriction on pics for the 'full fat' package - I think that's entirely down to the individual's discretion and how many they need to properly represent that particular detail. As for the 'semi skimmed' version, I'm not sure, but I guess for the same reasons, I'd have to side with no restrictions again really.

That said, I get as bored as the next guy when there are umpteen pics all of basically the same thing but from a couple of degrees difference in the camera position.


----------



## Detail My Ride (Apr 19, 2006)

I've been thinking about it, and I think that there isn't a huge need for a massive change in the system.

The current DW Supporter scheme works well, it ticks all the boxes. For me, its a no brainer, I get a lot of exposure etc through DW.

I think the only real benefit would come from introducing a cheaper scheme for 'DW Hobby Detailers' or 'Advanced Detailers', something along those lines, for the people for example Baker21 that we know are not professional, however detail regularly for 'Clients' etc. 

Introducing full fat, half fat, semi-skimmed, and 17.83% detailer options IMHO is going to confuse things, make it complicated for someone reading DW looking for a detailer to see whats what, as well as creating a ranking system, which may not necessarily be correct. 

Its a difficult one, however i'm a believer of if it isn't broken, don't fix it.


----------



## VIPER (May 30, 2007)

But Gaz, if there was nothing that needed updating with the current system we wouldn't be proposing a new one. Believe me, our workload running this place is time consuming enough without introducing new things for the sake of it. If there wasn't a call for it, we wouldn't be considering it.

And again, it's only a case of introducing one new option - you seem to think we're proposing having a multi level system?, and that's not the case. As I said before, just ignore the overseas one for the moment, that's kind of outside the arena we're talking about here and will be easy to manage.

:thumb:


----------



## Auto Finesse (Jan 10, 2007)

Viper said:


> Personally, I wouldn't support a restriction on pics for the 'full fat' package - I think that's entirely down to the individual's discretion and how many they need to properly represent that particular detail. As for the 'semi skimmed' version, I'm not sure, but I guess for the same reasons, I'd have to side with no restrictions again really.
> 
> That said, I get as bored as the next guy when there are umpteen pics all of basically the same thing but from a couple of degrees difference in the camera position.


No what i mean is a restriction on the amount of pics a normal user can post in a single post, not a restriction on a paid member,

The reasoning behind this would be a normal guy cleaning his own car etc wont need to show more than 30-50 pics, but alot of the guys who bend the rules to use DW as a show front for there work through the showroom would find it a real pain in the a$$ and would prompt them to pay up.


----------



## caledonia (Sep 13, 2008)

Having read all this post a few time, to say I am slight dismayed would be an understatement. The amount of egotistical nonsense contained within this thread is unbelievable.

I know I will be shot down as always. But these are my thoughts and I have a right to post as anyone else.

I will not go into the foundations and the roots of this forum, as many will know this. But I will say this.

I never thought for one minute there would be a tier system on such a well run forum. Talk about one up man ship. People would be as well posting up my dad got a better car than yours. Its so dam petty.
I have been running my own business longer than some of you have been Driving. Does this mean I am a better person than the next. No everyone is an equal, in life and business.

Professionalism comes form the way you conduct your services, carry out the job from start to finish and more than anything customer satisfaction.
It has nothing to do with Full or P/T. Business can be ruthless. But handling the facts and dealing with the matters in hand are in the fore front of any business man. Not getting one over the completion.

As for the need to develop the tier structure. I see the need for this to cut back on free loaders. But then to introduce a section and possibly charge for international members to post. I personally do not see the need.

For international members to visit the forum never mind post on this should tell the crew that the forum is a great site. More Details for home or abroad will only encourage new members to visit the site and gain even more recognition than it already has. But to then ask over sea visitors to pay up or do not post will discourage this and I personally think it will have a knock on effect on the site credibility. After all you all post on their forums. So whats the difference really

Surely people are not threatened by the work of overseas detailers or is it a case then feel as if their work might be regarded as better than the write ups they have done. This would not surprise me in the slightest.

In my life I have always had an incline as when people start to brag how good they are. They are only reassuring themselves and trying to convince other that they are this good. Your work should speak for its self and you should not need to nightlight the fact. Dont brag your the best just do it and get the credabilty you rightly deserve.

As for where this thread goes. Will no doubt have implication on some and the higher soap box for other to shout out a bit more. If this is what the management wish for DW then. This is up to them but a forum is no place for a classed society, never mind one up man ship.

But with the previous thread when this was highlighted it was music to people ears and no doubt got those thinking and the green light to carry forth. Detailing world is all about the passion and the love of it. Whether it is the look on the owner face, the transformation within the said vehicle or just the pure enjoyment for seeing what you have created. This is the whole be and end all as far as detailing. Why should the every day man not have his car detailed. Is it a case of out pricing him, making it an exclusive club. Where he wishes to have this done. But because of the cost can't. Every person as the right and again not be out classed.

But I do know on one member that would be very dismayed as to the current continence within this thread.

It would do well for people to remember their humble beginnings and their roots.

Sorry if its a bit blunt but it had to be said and since its business there is no other way to be.
Gordon


----------



## Ti22 (Mar 24, 2009)

Bleedin 'ell! I go off to detail a car.. come back and this is at 10 pages!

DW mods.. you'll never get us lot to agree.. I'd say just tell us what the new rules are and everyone will have to make up their own minds what's best for them and their business. Take what relevant bits you can from this thread!

James


----------



## VIPER (May 30, 2007)

Ti22 said:


> Bleedin 'ell! I go off to detail a car.. come back and this is at 10 pages!
> 
> DW mods.. you'll never get us lot to agree.. I'd say just tell us what the new rules are and everyone will have to make up their own minds what's best for them and their business. Take what relevant bits you can from this thread!
> 
> James


^^ Same as we always do then - we throw things open for suggestions....then just do what we were going to do in the first place anyway 

I jest, of course, but you're absolutely correct - the collective that makes up all DW's supporters are varied and so it's impossible to please everyone. As with anything relating to how we run the site, it's a case of trying to please most of the people most of the time...it's the best we can realistically hope to do :thumb:


----------



## Auto Finesse (Jan 10, 2007)

This thread got too funny, you say business is crude, then say the whole be and end all as far as detailing is concerned is doing it for the passion. 

Detailing as business is not "for the love of it" or "about the clients face" when they get the car back, yep its nice to give a car back and see the appreciation and its a bonus doing a job you have a bit of a passion for but no business would survive if it was foremost about that, it would then be a charity and it aint that, what a pathetic reply to bait me up some to respond.

If and only if (as i can only gather that "member" be me) it is aimed at me, quite frankly i dont care, i got rep through my work, i turn out work that would stand up against the very best, not through my "guides"  i detail as a business, as for humble beginnings, you really dont know me or my family well enough to pass that kind of judgement.


----------



## WHIZZER (Oct 25, 2005)

I would just like to add - nobody is trying to create a class structure on DW - If i wanted to just do what i wanted to do i wouldnt post in here to ask opinions !!!!
Also this is not about one upmanship - the majority of people in here moaned about people circumnavigating the rules etc - Now they do this by only mentioning perhaps a name or intermating that it was perhaps a paid detail - BUT they dont have a weblink, the dont have a signature, they are not in the need a detailer thread , they cant post in the studio etc etc Thats what you pay for - who has looked at the google rankings if they use the forum correctly from when you joined to now !- This whole idea was bourne from the supporters etc 

I do believe we need some form of structure on DW - it is a very different beast to what it was 3 years ago - We get a massive amount of traffic now - we are linked to numerous ( possibly in the k's) other forums - we get google indexed 50,000+ times a day -we get millions of hits etc etc.

The idea behind the international studio is not to charge every international star but to give them the opportunity to expliot DW for their benefit and business and use the google rankings etc Like our Uk Supporters do 

The idea to allow part timers was also to give them a little more freedom, the ability to be able to show off work without having to subscribe to a more expensive package.

As we have said we cannot please everybody 100% of the time - we try and Im sure we fail but the main word is we do try.

I have been thinking about what benefits i can add to the Supporters package and extras - How i can implement Grandfather rights to those that have really supported us to get us where we are.

We have major manufactuers knocking on the door now and we are only steps away from becoming the biggest detailing forum but to continue this we need to grow and evolve. 

My day to day job is no where near the same as it was 10 years ago come to think of it even 3 years ago - I still get paid the same but i do more now than i did then - Our customers demand more of us and we have to change and adapt to survive.

So as i said in my previous thread I ask if people would post their list - come up with better ideas - I'll listen - dont just talk about it 

show me the list ( in the style of Jerry Mcguire !)


----------



## Gleammachine (Sep 8, 2007)

caledonia said:


> [But to then ask over sea visitors to pay up or do not post will discourage this and I personally think it will have a knock on effect on the site credibility. After all you all post on their forums. So whats the difference really[/FONT]


If it is about business then why should an overseas business have the ability or even want the ability to post on what is largely a UK detailing forum, when the UK based companies pay to support and display their work.

I am a member of Detailing Bliss US site, their show it of sections are much the same as ours and they also have a supporters scheme, I respect their rules and don't post my work, also it would have little benefit workwise other than boosting my ego.

I like a few of us have remained loyal supporting DW year after year, for me I'd like to see the rules and benefits tweeked slightly but not overboard, I'm glad that the guys behind the scenes (Bill, Mark x2 etc) take an active interest and listen to the concensus, it's much appreciated guys. (hopefully should keep the price increase down. :lol
I get everything I want from my subscription- the ability to show case my work and google exposure, it's just the little bits that need ironing out regarding the pee takers IMO. :thumb:


----------



## Dave KG (Feb 23, 2006)

I had a few thoughts about this over the weekend...

As I have addressed above one of my concerns is that the introduction of a tier system segregates members on account of a separater (cost) that does not match what the tier system would be perceived as (ability/quality)... simply, if one could put up a high cost they could feaibly "buy-in" to an elite club regardless of their abilities. Whether you agree with this or not is, naturally, a metter of perspective but as this thread is to gauge opinions and thoughts, I am sharing mine here. The tier system that currently exists (supporter or not) has in the past caused similar issues partly down to the attitudes of members, and being perfectly frank, reading the forums as a whole the attitiudes of some (_the minority_) towards other members of this forum is simply apalling... Further seggregations run the risk of accentuating this issue which is a concern I have for the general atmosphere and feeling of community on the forum.

To that end, something which crossed my mind was building on some suggestions given above. On the face of it, to the general member, you are simply a "Supporter", regardless of what tier you have opted for. You could pay an initial flat sum to become a supporter of the forum and this gives you a basic package of, for example, being allowed to post up paid work in the Showroom.

Now, I am not an expert on the complexities of technical forum management - so this suggestion may be mre technically complex that it is on the face of it, but to me it seems straight forward enough... once you have paid your flat rate to become a "Supporter", is is possible to have a small number of "menu options" from which you can build your supporters package? Nothing complex - simply, you have a few option available: eg, Studio Posting, Basic Advertising (sig), Advanced Advertising (sig, banner, weblink, + ??), Personal Sales Access, +?... You need only a small number of options, each with its cost relative to what it gives and this allows members to choose what they feel would work best for them from a slightly more flexible system. Ease of management? Like I said, I'm no expert, but it seems straight forward enough to me, and only adds one or two extra "degrees of freedom" onto current suggestions for a tiered system anyway. What options any given member has chosen will not be listed - they will simply be "Supprters" or not.

To me this helps to address the concerns of a "tiered" system, while still allowing member to get a slightly varying package to best suit their needs.


----------



## VIPER (May 30, 2007)

Very interesting idea that, Dave - thanks for that :thumb: Certainly something we will have a good look at and at the logistics of implementing it, so I've placed it on the table for discussion in the mod's room.

I guess it's a but like speccing up a new car, if I've understood you correctly? - and like going down the options list, ticking the 'extras' you need.


----------



## *MAGIC* (Feb 22, 2007)

That is a good idea Dave
That way its down to the supporter to have what they want.


----------



## mattjonescardiff (Dec 12, 2006)

^^^ If that can be done it sounds like a good solution to me.


----------



## Dave KG (Feb 23, 2006)

Viper said:


> Very interesting idea that, Dave - thanks for that :thumb: Certainly something we will have a good look at and at the logistics of implementing it, so I've placed it on the table for discussion in the mod's room.
> 
> I guess it's a but like speccing up a new car, if I've understood you correctly? - and like going down the options list, ticking the 'extras' you need.


Essentially, yes :thumb: I mean, that _could_ get very complex if you have 101 options - but you don't need that, just a few key options as above that you could pick and choose from to build your package.


----------

