# Aberdeen's road safety record



## Kerr

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-18947721

Another week and another big incident.

There was also the young boy killed in Westhill at the weekend too.

I've lived in Aberdeen for a little more than 2 years now and I can't believe just how often I read about fatalities.

There does seem to be a higher proportion of younger drivers with faster cars up here, but does it just come down to that?

Why is the roads a far more dangerous place up here?


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## CraigQQ

do you think there is a link between the good pay of the oil rigs and young drivers with more expensive/faster cars in the area?


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## Kerr

CraigQQ said:


> do you think there is a link between the good pay of the oil rigs and young drivers with more expensive/faster cars in the area?


Yes.

It is far easier to get high paid work up here in comparison to anywhere I've worked.

More disposible income often spent on cars by youngsters.


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## Derekh929

Firstly another tragic lose to someone , and to answer you question far more A & B roads lined with tree's and also many in this corner spends loads on there car's it used to be the fishing industry know oil industry allows the young performance motor without experience.
Also many parents in Aberdeenshire get new motors for there 17th birthdays.
I have to say we need to get kids to understand how to handle a car in all weathers as so much rain and wind causes accidents in my view skid pan and hazard awareness a must when learning to drive also handling training and good skid pan and training after they pass is a must.


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## CraigQQ

skid pan is a great idea but also a double edged blade...

on one hand it teaches them how to handle the car should they loose traction ect and things get dicey..

on the other hand some individuals would then assume they were the worlds best drifters and had full control over any skid, slide round a corner on purpose straight into a car side on.

I won't act like I didn't drive idiotically when I was 17-20, had a fast car and at times drove like a complete tool on B roads ect..
regret it looking back, but at the time you don't realise how stupid it is. 
I only ever done it when in the car alone, due to the mindset that it was just yourself at risk, stupidly not thinking about the people you could be putting at risk on the road with you..
and when I realised that is the day I stopped driving like a ****


respect for other road users is something that is hard to teach... and we live in a world of road rage, speeding, and bad driving..


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## Derekh929

Hi Craig this was something we discussed with two local driving instructers and car control was key they reconned they had been on the Police saftey aware course days and they said the guy in charge just could not relate to the kids or get the message accross and that was an issue as well, ever heard of nine minute club?


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## CraigQQ

nine minute club... no... should I have?

not being able to convey the seriousness of the issue is a problem indeed.. perhaps the kids don't want to relate to police.. for some strange reason there seems to be a lot of police hatred in the uk these days..
I think it might be a hollywood/USA influence, people seem to see them as the enemy... but if your not doing anything wrong then you shouldn't have anything to worry about..


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## Derekh929

CraigQQ said:


> nine minute club... no... should I?


I was all over the press for a while it was back when i was Engineer on the trawlers and after that when it was said that Peterhead and Fraserburgh Fishermen raced between towns 17 miles a part in 9 min with performance cars , will tel you more about it if you are up :thumb:


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## CraigQQ

look forward to it.. 9 miles in 17minutes... thats like an average speed of 113mph 

tbh I've never been into the whole 'cruise' thing, the chavvy car park thing, or in general dicking about in cars :lol: 
drove like a ***? sometimes yes.. but not to prove a point to anyone else.. just because I was a bit of a bertie big bo11ocks thinking I knew it all..:wall: :lol:


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## Derekh929

CraigQQ said:


> look forward to it..
> 
> tbh I've never been into the whole 'cruise' thing, the chavvy car park thing, or in general dicking about in cars :lol:
> drove like a ***? sometimes yes.. but not to prove a point to anyone else.. just because I was a bit of a bertie big bo11ocks thinking I knew it all..:wall: :lol:


I started driving age 10 had heaps of bikes scamblers and old cars to race in quarry next to my dads place all shingle in the quarry in old rear drive cars drifting was so much fun wish i could do it all again MK2 escourt 1600 pinto engine or MK1 Capri know that is amazing fun in old Quarry:thumb:


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## CraigQQ

:lol: least it was somewhere safe offroad :thumb:

I learned to drive at 14 in a scrapyard :lol: rolled a few cars that were destined for the crusher for fun.. (the glass was always broke outwards first so it didn't explode on rolling :lol: 
strange thing is, I don't think I'd have the nerve to intentionally roll a car without trying to correct the skid these days :lol: young and fearless then...


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## alan_mcc

As you say derek 17 year olds are given brand new motors for their birthdays that often end up crashed. There was a crash up in Buckie today, it was a 17 year old driver. He's fine thankfully but it is common up here


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## Kerr

The cruise scene isn't as busy as it was about 15 years ago. 

I remember being up here at that time and the Boulevard used to resemble a drag strip. Cars doing burn outs all over the place and racing up and down. 

They all sit in the opposite side of the car park at the retail centre these days and anytime I've been near I've not seen to much go on. 

There has been 2 pedestrians and a young driver killed on the boulevard since I've been here though. 

Anybody know where to see the figures in comparison to other areas?


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## Drew_B

Control (or lack of it) in my opinion is key.
I'm not sure how young drivers control could be improved without an expensive mandatory course though. I took the route of teaching them to drive through karting & enjoyed watching them develop skills which they'll use for the rest of their lives.

My two are fast drivers but dare I say it, better drivers than me (hope they don't read this)

The other favourite when I was young was travelling to Fraserburgh from Peterhead, purchasing ice cream & trying to drive home before it melted!!!! Sounds crazy now but the wealth of the young fisherman in the area made things like this almost possible..........


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## Derekh929

CraigQQ said:


> :lol: least it was somewhere safe offroad :thumb:
> 
> I learned to drive at 14 in a scrapyard :lol: rolled a few cars that were destined for the crusher for fun.. (the glass was always broke outwards first so it didn't explode on rolling :lol:
> strange thing is, I don't think I'd have the nerve to intentionally roll a car without trying to correct the skid these days :lol: young and fearless then...


Yes Craig it's not so much as young and fearless as sense starts to get better :lol: i used to do some crazy stunts on my Scambler in the quarry but was lucky only a couple of offs that needed the doctor, like the idea of scap yard and roll sounds great.
I have to admit my Nephew got a scambler two years ago and my sister nearly killed me as she came out wsaw me on the bike learning him how to do wheeelies i was told i should have more sense and was sent to dog house but i had lot's of fun


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## Derekh929

Drew_B said:


> Control (or lack of it) in my opinion is key.
> I'm not sure how young drivers control could be improved without an expensive mandatory course though. I took the route of teaching them to drive through karting & enjoyed watching them develop skills which they'll use for the rest of their lives.
> 
> My two are fast drivers but dare I say it, better drivers than me (hope they don't read this)
> 
> The other favourite when I was young was travelling to Fraserburgh from Peterhead, purchasing ice cream & trying to drive home before it melted!!!! Sounds crazy now but the wealth of the young fisherman in the area made things like this almost possible..........


Drew where you based in Aberdeenshire i'm from Peterhead but based in the Broch, i think you are spot on with the car control being key and alot of the country lads had learned to drive early in old car's, but the fishermen had top of range and only home for 36 hours sometimes and still tired and lacked sharpness to drive safe fast IMHO


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## CraigQQ

Derekh929 said:


> Yes Craig it's not so much as young and fearless as sense starts to get better :lol: i used to do some crazy stunts on my Scambler in the quarry but was lucky only a couple of offs that needed the doctor, like the idea of scap yard and roll sounds great.
> I have to admit my Nephew got a scambler two years ago and my sister nearly killed me as she came out wsaw me on the bike learning him how to do wheeelies i was told i should have more sense and was sent to dog house but i had lot's of fun


haha!! you naughty uncle Derek :lol:


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## Drew_B

Originally Peterhead as well. Moved to Longside at the start of the year.


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## a_kerr

I've passed through Aberdeen on a regular basis for over 20 years. I remember a while back crossing the road in the town centre, and thinking the driver of a brand new Range Rover Vogue stopped at the lights looked a bit on the young side. I did a double-take and could see him wearing a school tie and his blazer hanging up through the back window! Maybe I'm jealous, but it doesn't seem right that a 17 year old gets to drive a piece of metal that costs the same as some peoples houses!


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## Bero

a_kerr said:


> I've passed through Aberdeen on a regular basis for over 20 years. I remember a while back crossing the road in the town centre, and thinking the driver of a brand new Range Rover Vogue stopped at the lights looked a bit on the young side. I did a double-take and could see him wearing a school tie and his blazer hanging up through the back window! Maybe I'm jealous, but it doesn't seem right that a 17 year old gets to drive a piece of metal that costs the same as some peoples houses!


....so what's an acceptable age (in your eyes) to drive one?


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## a_kerr

In hindsight the point I was trying to make didn't come across properly. I guess all I was trying to do was reinforce some of the comments already made about young kids driving rather expensive (and in some cases particularily fast) cars. Aberdeen doesn't have a monopoly on this, but I've never seen anywhere else like it.


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## GJM

Kerr said:


> There was also the young boy killed in Westhill at the weekend too.


Was that not a case of couriers under pressure, I've seen the courier van..usually on a friday come down our street and the thing is almost taking off going over the speed bumps.

I phoned up the company and had a word...still it happens


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## GJM

CraigQQ said:


> look forward to it.. 9 miles in 17minutes... thats like an average speed of 113mph


There was far less traffic on the roads way back then so the risk was far less, as obviously you had to rely on using the whole road at times...which isn't that risky in the dark as certain corners you can tell if anything coming....bad luck if no lights on though


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## Derekh929

GJM said:


> There was far less traffic on the roads way back then so the risk was far less, as obviously you had to rely on using the whole road at times...which isn't that risky in the dark as certain corners you can tell if anything coming....bad luck if no lights on though


Where you based? You hit the nail on the head with road traffic and in the Dark


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## Derekh929

CraigQQ said:


> look forward to it.. 9 miles in 17minutes... thats like an average speed of 113mph
> 
> tbh I've never been into the whole 'cruise' thing, the chavvy car park thing, or in general dicking about in cars :lol:
> drove like a ***? sometimes yes.. but not to prove a point to anyone else.. just because I was a bit of a bertie big bo11ocks thinking I knew it all..:wall: :lol:


Craig it is 17 miles in 9 minutes not the other way around


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## GJM

Derekh929 said:


> Where you based? You hit the nail on the head with road traffic and in the Dark


Currently Ellon


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## Cisteve

I live about 600 yards from where the woman was killed at the weekend.

loads of the neighbours heard the impact, and ive had the exact same car (the BMW X1) pull out on me on me at that junction, had to swerve to avoid it because it just flew straight out. 

its a horrible thing that shes died from it and my thoughts are with the families of all involved.

But the roads up here arent the best, the way theyre laid out, ive only lived up here for just over a year but ive never seen anything like it.

All the junctions coming off the a96, a90 etc dont have slip roads leading into and out of them, the amount of times ive nearly had someone plough into the back of me, even after giving 4-500 yards of indicator and slowing down gradually. its bloody scary!

And trafic lights 2 car lengths off a roundabout? like the Haudigan, and virgina street? which morons idea was that?

And not just up in aberdeen, but im sure its the whole of scotland (not being anti-scottish or anything, ive moved to scotland 3 times now, Lossie, Ayr and Aberdeen) but im sure the driving tests are different regarding roundabouts.

cars going straight on, second exit, in the outside lane, indicating as though theyre going right, third exit, then indicating left. I was always taught no indication, untill after youve just gone past the first exit.

Im not entireley into the young lads in fast cars argument either, Not saying it isnt a factor but i am saying its not fair to tar them all with the same brush, between the ages of 17-19 i had numerous fast cars, Calibra turbo 300+bhp, Corsa with a C20LET conversion 300+bhp, corsa with a 3.0V6 conversion, Scooby 330bhp, Celica GT4 ST185 with 440BHP, E36 328i mtech, Glanza with 240bhp along with a fair few others. And i never crashed one of them, bent over for insurance and spent more time at the side of the road with blue lights in the rear view mirror than i did driving them but it was to be expected really.


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## Kerr

There was a 40 year old biker killed yesterday in Aberdeenshire too. 

Personally I don't think the driving standards are any worse throughout the country. 

They get more aggressive in busier areas but just as many poor drivers. 

Young lads crash more than anybody for reasons I'm sure we all realise. 

I read a while back that women are far more likely to crash at a junction by pulling out in front of a car. Apparently it is a fact than on average women can't judge speeds and distances as well as men.


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## JenJen

Being a woman driver I think that's ****! I have never had an accident and nor have any of my female friends... But my male friends have been in accidents. Think that speaks volumes tbh!


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## Kerr

As for roundabouts, my absolute pet hate is the roundabout at the bottom of Wellington road heading over the bridge out of Aberdeen. 

There is 2 lanes and everybody queues in the left hand lane to take the third exit off the roundabout. 

If you use the right hand lane to turn right as you should, everyone goes mental at you. 

There is also a filter lane on the exit and I've have people either throw their car up the inside to intentionally box me out or honk their horn. 

Amazing how through habit of watching others that 95% of people don't have a clue how to use that roundabout. Really baffles me how nearly everyone does the very same wrong thing.


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## Kerr

JenJen said:


> Being a woman driver I think that's ****! I have never had an accident and nor have any of my female friends... But my male friends have been in accidents. Think that speaks volumes tbh!


It was an insurance company that provided the information.

It didn't say more women crash more than men. You are extracting the wrong information.

It said more women crash at junctions by not being able to judge speeds and distances as well as men.

Women were also more likely to have car park nudges and prangs in the report.

Men too often guilty of over driving, being too aggressive and losing control.

Before I read the report I would say that is what my opinion would have been like. You don't see anywhere near as many dangerously aggressive and speeding woman as you do men.

Likewise the amount of women I know guilty of minor car park bumps is pretty scary.

Likewise I would say more women I've witnessed on the road have displayed a lack of awareness than men.

Good and bad drivers everywhere.


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## Cisteve

I've never read the report but I've had that argument with an ex, women seem to have more bumps manoeuvring cars about at low speeds, most of which probably go unreported, but men do have more serious accidents that are their fault. I'm guilty of this myself, I broke my back in a car accident, thankfully it was a very minor fracture and didn't take long to heal, but that wasn't because of driving aggressively or how many people perceived a young driver to be driving ( was 17 at the time) and it wasn't a fast, powerful car, it was only a Renault 19 that was a stop gap while i had my car in a bodyshop. Just a momentary lapse of concentration

Also, look at the number of male drivers on the roads, a high percentage of lorry drivers, van drivers, motorcyclists are males. I don't really pay attention to statistics I go by what I see for myself, as statistics are often twisted so they have the impact they want them to have. Look at the big bull bar war that was around a few years ago, saying stuff about how much damage they do etc, if a 4x4 had the biggest set of bull bars you'd ever seen got rear ended at a set of lights, the 4x4 was at no fault, it would still be logged as a vehicle with bull bars involved in an RTA!


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## Bero

^ very good point on accident rates. How many miles per year does the average male and female driver do?

In addition to the groups you mention Taxis and 'rep type jobs' are male dominated too. Even considering families and couples it's mostly the male who drives if the couple / family are out.

I don't think Aberdeen is worse then anywhere else to be honest - there are a fair number of performance cars up here....but, if anything, i'd say accidents rates among them are lower then the rates for 'regular cars'. Hot hatches are involved in quite a few....but they're prevalent all over the country.


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## GJM

Women will have more accidents if put to the test with all driving same cars/doing same miles, same situations.

It's nature, all about visual spatial awareness

Another factor would possibly be having children, my olther half reckons her brain has gone to mush a bit after having kids, and she is not the only female have heard say this


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## GJM

JenJen said:


> Being a woman driver I think that's ****! I have never had an accident and nor have any of my female friends... But my male friends have been in accidents. Think that speaks volumes tbh!


It proves very little to be honest


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## GJM

Cisteve said:


> And trafic lights 2 car lengths off a roundabout? like the Haudigan which morons idea was that?


Does make you wonder, with regards to the Haudigan, when you cross to go south, there only used to be one daft set of lights, then they went and put in another set a stone throw away.

Aberdeen would get by without a bypass, Dundee isn't that bad to get through and a lot has to do with the lack of lights.

Why can't they remove the lights and go with a bridge or underpass.


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## JenJen

GJM said:


> It proves very little to be honest


Prove it then! I challenge you!


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## Bero

JenJen said:


> Prove it then! I challenge you!


Well, of the 25million women of driving age in the UK your sample of under 100 women is statistically insignificant


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## GJM

JenJen said:


> Prove it then! I challenge you!


Your proof is in visual spatial awareness, it differs in women and that is enough to have more accidents is you set up some test over a period


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## Kerr

Here is one from todays local paper. Typical women, eh?

http://www.eveningexpress.co.uk/Article.aspx/2867094

I will need to find the survey that I read as it was a very good read. I did just google to see what I could find but it didn't show up.

There was various articles by the mail highlighting women have more accidents but it isn't a well written article. Their figures were only based on 2.2 million drivers from one insurance group.


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## Kerr

Sadly another death today.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-19391229

A 30mph road which is very wide and plenty of visibility at 2.30pm today.


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## Kerr

http://www.eveningexpress.co.uk/Article.aspx/2917908

Sadly another one at the weekend.

I also see the driver from the accident from the beach is up in court today. Rumours suggest he was travelling as fast as 80mph before losing control and hitting the other car.


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## Will_G

Kerr,
My neighbours witnessed the guy speeding along the promenade area and said he was easily doing 80-90. They both made comment that one day he would do it and he'd regret it. They then had the unfortunate discovery of reaching the crash site.

Unfortunately what ever happens to the guy going up in court it wont be enough punishment for the loss of a life


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## Kerr

A little bump for an old thread.

Nothing seems to have changed. There has been more people killed or seriously injured in the last few months.

That little 8 year old boy with the crane was awful.

I'm told the big steep hill onto the Great Northern road is their play area and he came flying down the hill on a bike with no brakes and into the side of crane where he was crushed.

It does seem odd to have so many houses built right on the busiest roads in Aberdeen with the kids going back and forward all the time.

We also need that bypass as soon as possible to try and get as much traffic out of the city as possible.


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## Will_G

Yeah there have been a fair amount of accidents in recent times. The council seem to be doing a fair job of trying to put cyclists onto pavements making them combined pavement/cycle routes.

Whilst I agree with the bypass to rid the city of traffic they seem to be doing it in a very strange order out my way as they keep building more and more industrial parks out in dyce just now. Also they seem to be interested in putting in the new airport roundabout soon from what i've heard and that will just cause chaos this side of town.

In regards the 8 year old it is very sad to lose a life at that age. Though he did seem far from home and also I remember reading someone on FB posting that there were three kids playing chicken in the traffic earlier dodging in and out of the roadworks.


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## Subc

Major problem is the Roads, Inverness to Aberdeen is like a back road absolute disgrace,especially with the amount of Revenue generated by oil in the area.


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## moosh

Some positive news the company I work for was asked to quote on surveying the a96 from Inverness to Aberdeen so it is 100% going ahead the A96 upgrade and as part of it several towns are getting a by pass. 

The A9 upgrade has also begun with ground investigations already being started


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## mirdif64

As someone pointed out earlier, combination of so many back roads and high disposable income. I remember working at St. Fergus in '85, a lot of fisher money in the Broch and the Blue Toon. You couldn't cross the main street in Fraserburgh on a Sunday afternoon with all the Capri's, Manta's, etc going up to the flag pole and back.


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## Kerr

mirdif64 said:


> As someone pointed out earlier, combination of so many back roads and high disposable income. I remember working at St. Fergus in '85, a lot of fisher money in the Broch and the Blue Toon. You couldn't cross the main street in Fraserburgh on a Sunday afternoon with all the Capri's, Manta's, etc going up to the flag pole and back.


I was reading an article during the week that drivers in Aberdeen are the 2nd most likely to hit a lamppost based on research by Admiral.

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/scottish-drivers-best-britain-hitting-1931493

There was two more deaths confirmed this week in the Aberdeenshire region.


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## ivor

There's a few reasons for the amount of accidents 
1) young drivers driving cars far too powerful 
2) the stupid parents for buying these cars 
3) people's lack of road etiquette
4) people's mentality of 1 having to be infront of everyone and if not in front right up your backside 

I drive all over the country at times and its sadbtonsaynsomenofnthe worst driving I've seen is up here


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## Kerr

ivor said:


> There's a few reasons for the amount of accidents
> 1) young drivers driving cars far too powerful
> 2) the stupid parents for buying these cars
> 3) people's lack of road etiquette
> 4) people's mentality of 1 having to be infront of everyone and if not in front right up your backside
> 
> I drive all over the country at times and its sadbtonsaynsomenofnthe worst driving I've seen is up here


I don't think the driving is too bad up here.

It does seem to be Astra VXRs are the arseholes choice of car up here. Every single one of them seems to want make a nuisance of themselves.

They all seem to accelerate abruptly and then back off to get the overrun to cause exhaust popping in every single gear every time. They just look and sound stupid.

Fully agree about the amount of young lads with powerful cars.

However for all the high profile accidents of late, I don't remember the last one that involved a high performance car.

The last countless have all been standard Clios, Kas, Fiestas and the like.

Quite a few aren't young inexperienced drivers either.


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## Tank.

I regularly drive through aberdeen with work, just the main routes anderson drive and the harbour road

And tbh ive never seen anyone apart from taxi drivers driving like D1cks, apart from every idiot that takes the wrong lane on the roundabout at the bottom of wellington road to go to the harbour,


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## Kerr

Kerr said:


> As for roundabouts, my absolute pet hate is the roundabout at the bottom of Wellington road heading over the bridge out of Aberdeen.
> 
> There is 2 lanes and everybody queues in the left hand lane to take the third exit off the roundabout.
> 
> If you use the right hand lane to turn right as you should, everyone goes mental at you.
> 
> There is also a filter lane on the exit and I've have people either throw their car up the inside to intentionally box me out or honk their horn.
> 
> Amazing how through habit of watching others that 95% of people don't have a clue how to use that roundabout. Really baffles me how nearly everyone does the very same wrong thing.





Tank. said:


> I regularly drive through aberdeen with work, just the main routes anderson drive and the harbour road
> 
> And tbh ive never seen anyone apart from taxi drivers driving like D1cks, apart from every idiot that takes the wrong lane on the roundabout at the bottom of wellington road to go to the harbour,


It's the opposite direction that gets me. Here is my earlier post.

I find it bizarre that genuinely 95% of people take the roundabout wrongly.


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## Tank.

Going north, by the time i get into aberdeen the bus lane is out of action. I go tootling along the bus lane down the hill to the roundabout. I go from lane 1 over the roundabout to lane 2, turning right at the next r/a to go to the harbour, despite this lane 1 to 2, if youre taking the 1st exit on that roundabout you should be on the left lane, ive had irate drivers blasting their horns at me and even truckers, cant wait to have an accident to prove im right


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## Tank.

Kerr said:


> It's the opposite direction that gets me. Here is my earlier post.
> 
> I find it bizarre that genuinely 95% of people take the roundabout wrongly.


I see how that would work although ive never had to negotiate that roundabout when its busy, although i wouldnt get away with lane 2 across that roundabout in a lorry, but in that situation going that direction there are 2 lanes going that way, there arent two lanes painted going north the other way, right hand lane is marked for exit 2 or 3


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## Kerr

I've not been updating this too often, but another 3 deaths this week.

A young lad on his bike yesterday

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-23353273

A young lad on his motorbike the day before

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-23339744

Then a father to be for the second time was killed on Monday

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-23322494

I simply don't understand with all these accidents in Aberdeen/Aberdeenshire there isn't any action or any big deal made about it.

As I said earlier we seem to be reading about people getting killed on a very regular basis.

You get the announcement in the paper, it's put down to a tragic accident and then everyone moves on. Then it's only a matter of time before the same happens again.


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## muzzer

Derekh929 said:


> Firstly another tragic lose to someone , and to answer you question far more A & B roads lined with tree's and also many in this corner spends loads on there car's it used to be the fishing industry know oil industry allows the young performance motor without experience.
> Also many parents in Aberdeenshire get new motors for there 17th birthdays.
> I have to say we need to get kids to understand how to handle a car in all weathers as so much rain and wind causes accidents in my view skid pan and hazard awareness a must when learning to drive also handling training and good skid pan and training after they pass is a must.


Simple solution to that, make everyone ride a motorbike for two years prior to owning a car. It taught me roadcraft, speed awareness, width perception and gave me amazing peripheral vision and general road awareness of what everyone else was doing at the time.
Also, if you spend half your time making sure you don't get hit by other people, you develop a much better skill set behind the wheel imho.


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## Grunty

The young lad on the motorbike - the bike was stolen and he had 2 people on the back.


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## johanr77

Kerr said:


> I simply don't understand with all these accidents in Aberdeen/Aberdeenshire there isn't any action or any big deal made about it.
> 
> As I said earlier we seem to be reading about people getting killed on a very regular basis.
> 
> You get the announcement in the paper, it's put down to a tragic accident and then everyone moves on. Then it's only a matter of time before the same happens again.


I used to live out in the shire and a couple of boys I went to school with were killed and one seriously injured in different accidents. Reasons each time were speed or driving too quickly in bad conditions. Big part of the problem round here is rural roads being used as race tracks, not enough police presence and young drivers having access to quick cars from too young an age. It won't stop until folk get into their heads what speed is appropriate or the police take more interest in speeding.


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## Kerr

Grunty said:


> The young lad on the motorbike - the bike was stolen and he had 2 people on the back.


Just been told it was stolen but only one passenger and she is critical.

She didn't have a helmet on, but he did.

Not one of the news articles I've read mentioned anything about the bike being stolen.

Just as usual all the tributes how they were a hugely likeable lad who did no wrong.

Why does nobody ever say, "aye our Davie, he was a ****" of something more accurate when deserved?


----------



## johanr77

The lassie that was injured broke her thigh and kneecap according to her cousin, she was in getting an operation but other than that he said she was doing fine.


----------



## Will_G

Kerr,
Heard the opposite she had a helmet he didn't. The press and journal was quite open about him today, known troublemaker who was turning his life around seemingly... Even the quote from his cousin said how at 9 he set fire to his bedroom and it melted her rollerblades!

http://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/Article.aspx/3320510/

Apt name too

There does need to be something done as its getting ridiculous just now with the amount of accidents and deaths


----------



## Grunty

I find it very difficult to have sympathy for either of them, he stole the bike and she got on it probably knowing it was stolen and that he was unable to handle it.

I heard there was 2 passengers on it on Northsound this morning, but they have stopped reporting that now.


----------



## Will_G

Grunty, think it was just badly written on there. It said something like "the stolen bike had two people on the back collided with the car"

I've only sympathy for the car driver. My only issue with the crash was I couldn't understand how they collided


----------



## Grunty

Oh yeah, dont get me wrong I have sympathy for the car driver.


----------



## Kerr

Will_G said:


> Kerr,
> Heard the opposite she had a helmet he didn't. The press and journal was quite open about him today, known troublemaker who was turning his life around seemingly... Even the quote from his cousin said how at 9 he set fire to his bedroom and it melted her rollerblades!
> 
> http://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/Article.aspx/3320510/
> 
> Apt name too
> 
> There does need to be something done as its getting ridiculous just now with the amount of accidents and deaths


I can't see the entire article but have learned i said it **** for elbow.

The bike was stolen after he responded to a gumtree ad.

Agreed to buy it but didn't have a helmet. Guy agreed to throw in helmet to complete the sale, went to get it and he shot off.

Hope the poor fella is insured on his bike.

Also the driver isn't too traumatised although I've no idea who is at fault for the actual accident.


----------



## Kerr

Another poor old boy added to the list in Turriff.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-23401836


----------



## Subc

RIP all those who have lost their lives on the Tracks that are classed as roads in Scotland an absolute bloody disgrace. A9 is a death trap how many more lives need to be lost before something is done. Words are very Cheap life is irreplaceable.


----------



## Derekh929

Subc said:


> RIP all those who have lost their lives on the Tracks that are classed as roads in Scotland an absolute bloody disgrace. A9 is a death trap how many more lives need to be lost before something is done. Words are very Cheap life is irreplaceable.


And the answer is not the cheap fix of average speed cameras for 136 miles of A9 it's all down to cost and they like spending all the money in the central belt , like the fantastic new tramp system in Edinburgh, paying drives to drive for weeks without passengers , you could not make it up


----------



## Kerr

Another one last night at Oldmeldrum

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-23642990


----------



## Will_G

Plus there were a couple of serious car v pedestrian yesterday too. One at berryden one at kingswells.

Has been a really bad week in Aberdeen for various incidents


----------



## Will_G

Announcement today that Aberdeen police are upping their traffic police numbers from 5 to 15. Whilst I think this is good I'm rather shocked we had so little traffic police anyway

EDIT:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-23694032


----------



## Grunty

Can't believe there were that few traffic police either to be honest.


----------



## johanr77

Makes sense when you think about it, can't think I've seen the Aberdeen traffic cops all that often.


----------



## Derekh929

johanr77 said:


> Makes sense when you think about it, can't think I've seen the Aberdeen traffic cops all that often.


No but plenty of the Cash vans 3 in Aberdeen one day


----------



## Kerr

Yet another.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-23697935

I'd like to see figures from across the UK and I'd highly doubt anywhere is worse.


----------



## andy_ad567

they need to get this bloody bypass sorted out and cut down on traffic going threw aberdeen its a bloody joke everyone just goes for it and tries to rush threw the traffic resulting in these fatality so unfortunate.


----------



## Derekh929

andy_ad567 said:


> they need to get this bloody bypass sorted out and cut down on traffic going threw aberdeen its a bloody joke everyone just goes for it and tries to rush threw the traffic resulting in these fatality so unfortunate.


10 years to late and spoke with a few Hgv drivers say they will still go up the town the hadigan is a shambles , council is a joke


----------



## novaecosse

andy_ad567 said:


> they need to get this bloody bypass sorted out and cut down on traffic going threw aberdeen its a bloody joke everyone just goes for it and tries to rush threw the traffic resulting in these fatality so unfortunate.


It would have been started by now if it wasn't for a certain Mr Walton :wall:


----------



## Kerr

A padestrian that was knocked down last week has now died.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-23745628


----------



## Kerr

Another death but due to a medical matter.

http://www.eveningexpress.co.uk/Article.aspx/3359111


----------



## Kerr

Just reading the news this morning and notice another death in the shire.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-24107354


----------



## rf860

I've just moved to Aberdeen and this may sound harsh but I recon a lot of the crashes caused up here is because of poor driving. 

Seems to be a lot of poor drivers in Aberdeen. Particularly 'hesitators'. 

Very very frustrating at the roundabout at the A90 heading to Perth (at the Asda) when people hesitate when they could've been out. Bet there's been plenty of crashes on that roundabout alone. 

A woman cut me up on that roundabout the other day and I skidded to a halt. Not even a 'sorry' from her. 

The A90 is very dangerous along some parts. Tractors and slow moving vehicles must have real difficulty getting across the carriageway.


----------



## moosh

such a positive thread but one I cant stay away from, sad the lives that are lost on the roads


----------



## johanr77

rf860 said:


> Seems to be a lot of poor drivers in Aberdeen. Particularly 'hesitators'.


Aye to get anywhere in Aberdeen in any decent time frame you can't be a hesitant punter.

The roundabout at the top of albyn place where it meets Queens road is always a lot of fun at rush hour.


----------



## GJM

rf860 said:


> I've just moved to Aberdeen and this may sound harsh but I recon a lot of the crashes caused up here is because of poor driving.
> 
> Seems to be a lot of poor drivers in Aberdeen. Particularly 'hesitators'.
> 
> Very very frustrating at the roundabout at the A90 heading to Perth (at the Asda) when people hesitate when they could've been out. Bet there's been plenty of crashes on that roundabout alone.
> 
> A woman cut me up on that roundabout the other day and I skidded to a halt. Not even a 'sorry' from her.
> 
> The A90 is very dangerous along some parts. Tractors and slow moving vehicles must have real difficulty getting across the carriageway.


Seen some bull like this on Pistonheads, poor driving is both nation and world wide not just Aberdeen.

Go travel the UK in all areas for say 50k, do you really think you wont come across a squad of hesitators and general garbage driving

Be interesting to see

A. How long you have been driving for
B. What cities you ave driven in
C. Amount of miles covered


----------



## rf860

GJM said:


> Seen some bull like this on Pistonheads, poor driving is both nation and world wide not just Aberdeen.
> 
> Go travel the UK in all areas for say 50k, do you really think you wont come across a squad of hesitators and general garbage driving
> 
> Be interesting to see
> 
> A. How long you have been driving for
> B. What cities you ave driven in
> C. Amount of miles covered


Public forum, all are entitled to their opinion.

I was merely passing on my views and what I've personally observed in my time here.

I'm not saying that everywhere else the driving standard is better.

I'm not going to fuel your fire mate. So best to just stop here.

All the best!


----------



## GJM

I'm all for voicing an opinion, however bit of a sweeping statement.

You even say it might sound harsh, you then say you reckon a lot of crashes caused by poor driver....well to be fair, just about every crash in the world is more often than not.

I could start a thread saying...Standard of driving is ****e in Glasgow based on experience, Liverpool, Manchester, Birmingham, London etc

Road safety records are poor here there and everywhere, Aberdeen is probably no worse than the next place, infact if you looked hard enough it probably fairs quite well


----------



## Kerr

Another very serious sounding crash.

http://www.eveningexpress.co.uk/Article.aspx/3403881

Can anyone find a page with national crash statistics, and preferably broken into regions?


----------



## Will_G

Another fatality last night on a90 Aberdeen to Peterhead road at lonmay

http://news.stv.tv/north/240724-man-42-dies-after-two-vehicle-smash-on-a90-in-aberdeenshire/


----------



## Kerr

I was reading there could be plans to reduce the A90 to 50mph, but this was meet with protests and anger. 

Don't think given the safety record they have any case for an argument against.


----------



## Bero

Kerr said:


> I was reading there could be plans to reduce the A90 to 50mph, but this was meet with protests and anger.
> 
> Don't think given the safety record they have any case for an argument against.


Reduce the speed on >120miles of dual carriageway and A road down to 50mph (and parts up to 50) to reduce the risk at a couple junctions?!?!?!

Dangerous areas should be 40-50mph with flashing neon speed cameras.....and the rest left as is. This is responsible use of speed cameras IMHO, the same as average speed cameras where there are people working on the roads; very clear and compelling reasons for speed enforcement.


----------



## novaecosse

The A90 recently had a Speed Limit Review carried out. 
The only changes where in Dundee, Longhaven (reduction to 50/ part-time 20 from NSL/ part-time 20), Crimmond (reduction from 40 to 30) and Fraserburgh (reduction from 40 to 30)
All other sections are to maintain their current posted limit.

The biggest problem with Lonmay is the bend at the north end of the village.


----------



## ivor

The problem with the A90 from Dundee to Aberdeen is all the little side roads that just come straight out onto it instead of having a graduated slip road ,plus you have the farm traffic pulling onto it which can be a problem if your not aware of how slow they're moving in relation to a car. The city itself is people who drive with no respect or consideration to other road users and it's not just cars doing this I had an idiot in one of the buses today try to turn down market street even though no traffic was moving so he ended up blocking the whole junction instead of using a bit of common sense and waiting until his exit was clear and after congratulating him on his great piece of driving he just looked and shrugged it's this attitude that pervades drivers in Aberdeen ,the also seem to think that aiming their car at another one going round a around about and accelerating is the done thing it amazes me at time to see some of the things that are done.

I've driven in many cities and countries but even London has a better class of driver than here admittedly it's hard to go above 20 in London


----------



## Will_G

The side roads and crossing of the carriageway are my main concerns about some of the roads up here. Likes of the kingswells to westhill road that's now been reduced in speed if they closed off all the openings for crossing the carriageway and made people drive 5 minutes more they could get to the roundabout and go round it come back to the opening


----------



## Duggs

Will_G said:


> The side roads and crossing of the carriageway are my main concerns about some of the roads up here. Likes of the kingswells to westhill road that's now been reduced in speed if they closed off all the openings for crossing the carriageway and made people drive 5 minutes more they could get to the roundabout and go round it come back to the opening


Agree with the comments on the Westhill-Kingswells road. The number of crossing on that road is comical as is the number of signposts. Rather than address the crossing, which have been the cause of all the fatalities in the last ten years they drop the speed limit by 20 miles an hour. Lazy attempt road safety that won't make a real difference when there is another accident on that road. The design of the new Kingswells roundabout/Prime Four site junction means that is just a matter of time sadly.

Buses in Aberdeen and the Shire act like rolling road blocks and wonder why they car drivers aren't courteous. They are happy to drive at 20 miles an hour at 6am rather than wait at a bus stop. On the odd occasion they do pull over and wait to get back on schedule they will double park at places like Woodend Hospital which only compromise the flow of other traffic. Considerate they are not.

The roundabout crossing of Anderson Drive are poorly designed. Many of them allow two lanes to cross competing for one exit such as Queens Road, Kings Gate, Cromwell Road. That said there is some very aggressive driving in the city.

The A90 south of Aberdeen to Dundee has too many junctions and farm traffic to be speeding. The cameras do a reasonable job of limiting the excesses but there is a reasonable case for dropping the speed at a few of the busier junctions to 50 mph with camera enforcement and better lighting.


----------



## Duggs

A944 Westhill to Kingswells, 1.7 miles and 24 opportunities to cross the carriageway! That's an average of one every 125 yards....


----------



## johanr77

Duggs said:


> A944 Westhill to Kingswells, 1.7 miles and 24 opportunities to cross the carriageway! That's an average of one every 125 yards....


That's a knock on from the amount of properties that require access from the road.

Even though it's been reduced in speed you still get folk nipping on at 70+ because the cops hardly ever enforce the limit now. Then you've got the utter fuds who sit in the right hand lane for the whole length of the carriageway because they want to turn right to go to westhill.


----------



## Duggs

johanr77 said:


> Then you've got the utter fuds who sit in the right hand lane for the whole length of the carriageway because they want to turn right to go to westhill.


That really does my head in!


----------



## rf860

Duggs said:


> That really does my head in!


+1 use that road every day and same problems occurs everyday!


----------



## Kerr

Another fatality in the Shire.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-24610109

Has been quite a few very serious accidents in the meantime too.


----------



## Kerr

Peterhead this morning.

http://www.eveningexpress.co.uk/Article.aspx/3460121


----------



## Derekh929

A tragedy again the girl was dropping someone of at there work was a very very bad low sun, my sister know her and can't believe what has happened as my niece works down that road terrible news again


----------



## Kerr

Another tragedy at Marykirk. A 7 month pregnant women lost her child.

http://www.eveningexpress.co.uk/news/local/baby-dies-after-north-east-crash-1.152981


----------



## Kerr

Another in the Shire.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-24970953


----------



## Kerr

Been a few weeks since any fatalities, but a few very serious accidents in the meantime.

There was a death in Fraserburgh yesterday. Not sure if it was an accident or not though.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-25476300

More on it here.

http://www.eveningexpress.co.uk/news/local/man-dies-in-north-east-road-accident-1.168484

That really sounds awful. Trying to do a good deed and you get yourself killed.


----------



## Derekh929

Kerr said:


> Been a few weeks since any fatalities, but a few very serious accidents in the meantime.
> 
> There was a death in Fraserburgh yesterday. Not sure if it was an accident or not though.
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-25476300
> 
> More on it here.
> 
> http://www.eveningexpress.co.uk/news/local/man-dies-in-north-east-road-accident-1.168484
> 
> That really sounds awful. Trying to do a good deed and you get yourself killed.


This was just 1 mile from me , tragedy and heartache again it seems the guy from abroad that works here wife was on route for Christmas , we have a lot of very good foreign workers that have intregated into the community


----------



## k9vnd

CraigQQ said:


> do you think there is a link between the good pay of the oil rigs and young drivers with more expensive/faster cars in the area?


:thumb:yes.... in our family the youngest 19yrs has an evo8 and does the scaffolding on the rig's the other a Maserati grancabrio and he's 26 and in selling, both inexperienced for the car's, last I seen the evo was 690bhp but when your getting a 5 figure sum in every month who's to say what they can and can't buy.


----------



## k9vnd

Tragedy's everywhere being Aberdeen or not but not all happen to be in the limelite.


----------



## Derekh929

k9vnd said:


> :thumb:yes.... in our family the youngest 19yrs has an evo8 and does the scaffolding on the rig's the other a Maserati grancabrio and he's 26 and in selling, both inexperienced for the car's, last I seen the evo was 690bhp but when your getting a 6 figure sum in every month who's to say what they can and can't buy.


I think the six figure sum a month is bit of exaggeration tbo :thumb:


----------



## k9vnd

Derekh929 said:


> I think the six figure sum a month is bit of exaggeration tbo :thumb:


Fraid it's not bud just under 20k:thumb:


----------



## Derekh929

k9vnd said:


> Fraid it's not bud just under 20k:thumb:


:lol: since when did £20k have 6 figures in it:wall: when I went to school it was 5:thumb: so knowing the oil industry well what occupation is generating just under £20k a month?


----------



## k9vnd

Not going to openly discuss another family member's life on here but basic principle's of this is if you can work out who supply's this to the rig's then you'll soon work it out that it's a sole family business that it originates from, As your in the industry then it should'nt be that difficult to work out.


----------



## Derekh929

k9vnd said:


> Not going to openly discuss another family member's life on here but basic principle's of this is if you can work out who supply's this to the rig's then you'll soon work it out that it's a sole family business that it originates from, As your in the industry then it should'nt be that difficult to work out.


Not asking you to do that but there is a difference to occupation in oil industry to running a company and company profits, and I'm not in the oil industry, :thumb: and you still saying 6 figures in £20k :doublesho


----------



## k9vnd

Profit's..no...And your highlighting a mug!..lol... surely not that bored!.


----------



## Kerr

k9vnd said:


> Tragedy's everywhere being Aberdeen or not but not all happen to be in the limelite.


There is deaths on the road every day in the UK and most are reported.

Aberdeen and the Shire is a relatively small area and the amount of serious injuries and deaths is shocking.

Maybe part of the reason I keep this rather dark log of them.

Just see how many are in this thread and I've probably missed more too.

Still amazes me how little is been done to try and solve the issue.


----------



## Kerr

Another one today at Laurencekirk.

http://www.eveningexpress.co.uk/news/local/woman-dies-after-car-crash-1.168952


----------



## Kerr

Another death yesterday related to an accident a few weeks ago.

http://www.eveningexpress.co.uk/news/local/man-dies-after-two-car-crash-on-north-east-road-1.169109

I'll need to count back, but it's far too many deaths


----------



## Kerr

Another one today.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-25511782

What a really bad spell. We've not even had a cold spell with icy roads yet.


----------



## Kerr

Add another one to the list.

http://www.eveningexpress.co.uk/news/local/woman-dies-after-crash-1.169707

Been a very sad Christmas for quite a few families.


----------



## rf860

Terrible. Glad I'm not up here this Xmas at that rate of accidents.


----------



## GJM

Kerr said:


> Aberdeen and the Shire is a relatively small area and the amount of serious injuries and deaths is shocking.


Rubbish 'The Shire' covers quite a vast area, which includes a lot of tight country roads for starters.

Accidents

In 2012, there were 160 fatal accidents, 15 (9%) fewer than in 2011, the lowest number since the records began in 1970.
Serious injury accidents in 2012 increased by 57 (3%) to 1,730.
Slight injury accidents fell by 273 (3%) in 2012 to 7,857 - the lowest number since records began.
Casualties

There were 174 people killed in road accidents in Scotland in 2012, 11 (or 6%) fewer than in 2011 and the lowest since records began in 1950.

1,974 people were seriously injured in road accidents in 2012, 97 (or 5%) more than in 2011.

10,528 people were slightly injured in road accidents in 2012, 187 (or 2%) fewer than in 2011 - the lowest figure since 1950.

There were a total number of 12,676 casualties in 2012 - 101 (or 1%) fewer than in 2011 - the lowest figure since 1938.

The reductions in the numbers of accidents and casualties in recent years are notable particularly given the rise in vehicle and subsequent traffic. E.g. in 2012 the number of vehicles licensed in Scotland was about a sixth higher than in 2002 and traffic on Scottish roads was estimated to have grown by five per cent since 2002.


----------



## GJM

Kerr said:


> Another one today.
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-25511782
> 
> What a really bad spell. We've not even had a cold spell with icy roads yet.


Not sure what tropical part you live in but I have been encountering plenty icy conditions in 'the Shire' over the last month or so.

Even my neighbour hit black ice this morning and damaged the front bumper


----------



## Kerr

GJM said:


> Rubbish 'The Shire' covers quite a vast area, which includes a lot of tight country roads for starters.
> 
> Accidents
> 
> In 2012, there were 160 fatal accidents, 15 (9%) fewer than in 2011, the lowest number since the records began in 1970.
> Serious injury accidents in 2012 increased by 57 (3%) to 1,730.
> Slight injury accidents fell by 273 (3%) in 2012 to 7,857 - the lowest number since records began.
> Casualties
> 
> There were 174 people killed in road accidents in Scotland in 2012, 11 (or 6%) fewer than in 2011 and the lowest since records began in 1950.
> 
> 1,974 people were seriously injured in road accidents in 2012, 97 (or 5%) more than in 2011.
> 
> 10,528 people were slightly injured in road accidents in 2012, 187 (or 2%) fewer than in 2011 - the lowest figure since 1950.
> 
> There were a total number of 12,676 casualties in 2012 - 101 (or 1%) fewer than in 2011 - the lowest figure since 1938.
> 
> The reductions in the numbers of accidents and casualties in recent years are notable particularly given the rise in vehicle and subsequent traffic. E.g. in 2012 the number of vehicles licensed in Scotland was about a sixth higher than in 2002 and traffic on Scottish roads was estimated to have grown by five per cent since 2002.


Scotland is a relatively small area. The population of Aberdeen and the Shire adds up to around 450,000. It's neither vast by size or population.

Population of Scotland is 5.3 million. Aberdeen and the Shire makes up 8.5% of the population of Scotland.

So if 174 people were killed in Scotland, we should only expect under 15 deaths in this area. I think Aberdeen and The Shire is significantly higher than that.

Hence my opinion that road safety is bad up here. You're entitled to your opinion, but jumping in with "rubbish" is pretty unfair to say the least.


----------



## Kerr

GJM said:


> Not sure what tropical part you live in but I have been encountering plenty icy conditions in 'the Shire' over the last month or so.
> 
> Even my neighbour hit black ice this morning and damaged the front bumper


It's hardly been bad. We haven't had a prolonged period of bad weather like we often see. We've had the odd morning.

Did Santa leave ashes in your stocking?


----------



## Kerr

Kerr said:


> Scotland is a relatively small area. The population of Aberdeen and the Shire adds up to around 450,000. It's neither vast by size or population.
> 
> Population of Scotland is 5.3 million. Aberdeen and the Shire makes up 8.5% of the population of Scotland.
> 
> So if 174 people were killed in Scotland, we should only expect under 15 deaths in this area. I think Aberdeen and The Shire is significantly higher than that.
> 
> Hence my opinion that road safety is bad up here. You're entitled to your opinion, but jumping in with "rubbish" is pretty unfair to say the least.


A quick scan of this thread and I can see 21 deaths either linked to by myself, or mentioned by someone else within 5 months. That's not counting the ones I would have missed by being on holiday or not reading the paper or not reported.

As I said above, law of averages says under 15 a year and we are sitting at 21 in 5 months.

Think that backs up my opinion.


----------



## rf860

I've recently moved to Aberdeen and I must say, the amount of car accidents on the road up there is massively greater than back in Ayrshire. 

I'm not going to pass judgement on what I think of their driving as I've been flamed before for it!!


----------



## Kerr

The new year hasn't started well. First day and already another death.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-25575246


----------



## GJM

Kerr said:


> It's hardly been bad. We haven't had a prolonged period of bad weather like we often see. We've had the odd morning.
> 
> Did Santa leave ashes in your stocking?


Define bad....Black ice is good?

Probably worse than Snow as at least people can see the stuff and be cautious.

Like I said Shire covers a vast area and temperatures different greatly as do ability to be treated.

When we had the really bad winters, there were areas that you could have driven like a lunatic and nothing would have came of it, however in other areas you couldn't get about walking pace


----------



## Kerr

GJM said:


> Define bad....Black ice is good?
> 
> Probably worse than Snow as at least people can see the stuff and be cautious.
> 
> Like I said Shire covers a vast area and temperatures different greatly as do ability to be treated.
> 
> When we had the really bad winters, there were areas that you could have driven like a lunatic and nothing would have came of it, however in other areas you couldn't get about walking pace


Can you remember a winter that has been as mild? Do you not recall winters where you have to scrape the car every morning for weeks on end?

Half the folk I know have been debating or removed their winter tyres as they are too often out of their temperature range.

I'm up and down the country on a regular and a large proportion of the people who I work with travel from both north and south of Aberdeen.

I do think anyone has complained about a harsh winter. I've heard the opposite in fact.

Have a look back at many of the accidents. Most of them happened in the afternoon when the weather was way above freezing conditions. Many also happened on main roads and not country lanes.

One thing I've found about people who crash, rarely will they ever admit fault. There is always black ice, diesel on the road or some other external factor that justifies their mistake.

I can't actually believe I'm having to justify that we haven't had a bad winter. You are without a doubt the only person I've heard that says the opposite.

Aberdeen and the Shire is a small region. Not sure I've ever heard the word vast used to even describe Scotland before nevermind a couple of council boundaries.

Not sure why I'm arguing that either.


----------



## GJM

Kerr said:


> Scotland is a relatively small area. The population of Aberdeen and the Shire adds up to around 450,000. It's neither vast by size or population.
> 
> Population of Scotland is 5.3 million. Aberdeen and the Shire makes up 8.5% of the population of Scotland.
> 
> So if 174 people were killed in Scotland, we should only expect under 15 deaths in this area. I think Aberdeen and The Shire is significantly higher than that.
> 
> Hence my opinion that road safety is bad up here. You're entitled to your opinion, but jumping in with "rubbish" is pretty unfair to say the least.


Whats rubbish is your not looking at the bigger picture, and to say that shire is not a vast area is also rubbish.

Check the boundaries in comparison with other regions and it's by no means, small, your looking at only being outdone by the Highlands and maybe Argyll and Bute at a push, so your looking at 2nd or 3rd worst case in Scotland

Population also adds up closer to 480,000-500,000 which equates to 2nd highest population in Scotland by region.

Where the two mentioned above have populations for around 220k and 90k respectively.

It's fine highlighting these crashes, problem is you are not highlighting ones in other areas for comparison which there are plenty of.


----------



## Kerr

GJM said:


> Whats rubbish is your not looking at the bigger picture, and to say that shire is not a vast area is also rubbish.
> 
> Check the boundaries in comparison with other regions and it's by no means, small, your looking at only being outdone by the Highlands and maybe Argyll and Bute at a push, so your looking at 2nd or 3rd worst case in Scotland
> 
> Population also adds up closer to 480,000-500,000 which equates to 2nd highest population in Scotland by region.
> 
> Where the two mentioned above have populations for around 220k and 90k respectively.
> 
> It's fine highlighting these crashes, problem is you are not highlighting ones in other areas for comparison which there are plenty of.


Aberdeen council give their population as 220,000.The 8th largest Council by population and 4% of Scotland's population as of June 2011. That's their figures not mine.

Aberdeenshire have their population at 255,000 which is higher than I read before.

Looks like I was 6% out. It still makes little difference to the overall statistics. It takes you up to 9% of the population of Scotland.

By the law of averages, based on the facts you pulled to prove Aberdeen and the Shire wasn't bad, we should still only see 15.6 deaths per year based on population. We're significant worse than that. That's based on 174 deaths and not accounting that the roads are supposed to be getting safer.

We've had 22 deaths in 5.5 months which is 4 per month. We should on average see 1.3 deaths per month. Currently by population we are 208% up on the Scottish average.

Do you follow my maths?

I'm not sure how far travelled you are, but vast isn't the size of a couple of councils.

Rather than countinually calling me out for talking rubbish, tells us the story. I'm intrigued to hear your opinion.

So far you've called me out for talking rubbish and have offered nothing worthwhile in return.

I read the papers everyday, I lived for lengthy periods under 5 different councils and I've never encountered or read about so many serious accidents and deaths.

I have had the same discussion on various forums, with fellow Aberdonians and workmates. So far, before you, I've never heard anyone disagreeing. Countless other people have raised the same concerns as me.

So whatever the superior knowledge you have, let it out. I've honestly not worked out your actual point yet.


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## k9vnd

This has been a great thread and interesting to say the least. I feel it's run it's time! It won't be long before a post come's up that may upset someone.
I understand the passion,interest and fixation over it but dnt feel it's now appropriate for a detailing website.
Death's should be something that are grieved to and by highlighting them is where iam at, especially with some argumentative comment's the thread isn't going to go anywhere or from the look's of it get resolved in that matter.


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## GJM

Kerr said:


> Aberdeen council give their population as 220,000.The 8th largest Council by population and 4% of Scotland's population as of June 2011. That's their figures not mine.
> 
> Aberdeenshire have their population at 255,000 which is higher than I read before.
> 
> Looks like I was 6% out. It still makes little difference to the overall statistics. It takes you up to 9% of the population of Scotland.
> 
> By the law of averages, based on the facts you pulled to prove Aberdeen and the Shire wasn't bad, we should still only see 15.6 deaths per year based on population. We're significant worse than that. That's based on 174 deaths and not accounting that the roads are supposed to be getting safer.
> 
> We've had 22 deaths in 5.5 months which is 4 per month. We should on average see 1.3 deaths per month. Currently by population we are 208% up on the Scottish average.
> 
> Do you follow my maths?
> 
> I'm not sure how far travelled you are, but vast isn't the size of a couple of councils.
> 
> Rather than countinually calling me out for talking rubbish, tells us the story. I'm intrigued to hear your opinion.
> 
> So far you've called me out for talking rubbish and have offered nothing worthwhile in return.
> 
> I read the papers everyday, I lived for lengthy periods under 5 different councils and I've never encountered or read about so many serious accidents and deaths.
> 
> I have had the same discussion on various forums, with fellow Aberdonians and workmates. So far, before you, I've never heard anyone disagreeing. Countless other people have raised the same concerns as me.
> 
> So whatever the superior knowledge you have, let it out. I've honestly not worked out your actual point yet.


If you had looked you would have seen more up to date population figures, therefore came above your initial figures, 2012 population for Aberdeen City is 224,970 for what it's worth.

Also the title read Aberdeen's road safety record, however a lot of these crashes are in Aberdeenshire, so like how you put Aberdeen in 8th place yet highlight crashes in the Shire.

If you want that comparison then you need to use both, however a lot of these crashes will be on Shire roads, reasons previously mentioned.

Vast is the size of councils when you are looking at a country the size of Scotland, go and remind yourself of the boundaries on a MAP, I bet you can even get the area's they cover in miles.

Vast is a drop in the ocean if you are comparing Russia and America for example

The maths is simple, Aberdeen and Shire cover a good size and have a lot of people combined in comparison, coupled with a lot of commuters, tourists and not the best roads....its inevitable there are going to be accidents/deaths.

As said it's good you keeping count of all the ones you see in the local press, however you are not comparing them directly to others that are happening at the same time.

People you chat with raise the same concerns as they are only up to speed with what's happening in their own back yard probably fueled with P&J/Evening Express and North tonight not having much other news to feed given.

Or do they check for accidents all over Scotland on a daily basisv to build a truly accurate picture?


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## GJM

Kerr said:


> Sadly another death today.
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-19391229
> 
> A 30mph road which is very wide and plenty of visibility at 2.30pm today.


With a scouse drug dealer, with no licence at the wheel travelling at over 70mph who got 7 years from memory

Quite an isolated incident.


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## podgas

This brings it Home !
Watch "Wow... The best road safety advert I've ever seen. Well done NZ Police."
https://www.facebook.com/OtorohangaPolice


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## GJM

Kerr said:


> There is deaths on the road every day in the UK and most are reported.


But not all, here lies the problem. Listen to the Police channels of old in Aberdeen and Shire...not a lot to report on, heard them taking chip shop orders more than anything else.

Listen to same channels South, its a different ball game.

So in turn more stuff to report on for press.



Kerr said:


> Aberdeen and the Shire is a relatively small area


Compared to what?


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## GJM

podgas said:


> This brings it Home !
> Watch "Wow... The best road safety advert I've ever seen. Well done NZ Police."
> https://www.facebook.com/OtorohangaPolice


And there is many a junction like that in Shire, many where they have a STOP when it's far safer to GIVE WAY and know of ones the opposite where they are GIVE WAY and you would be MAD not to STOP


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## Kerr

GJM said:


> If you had looked you would have seen more up to date population figures, therefore came above your initial figures, 2012 population for Aberdeen City is 224,970 for what it's worth.
> 
> Also the title read Aberdeen's road safety record, however a lot of these crashes are in Aberdeenshire, so like how you put Aberdeen in 8th place yet highlight crashes in the Shire.
> 
> If you want that comparison then you need to use both, however a lot of these crashes will be on Shire roads, reasons previously mentioned.
> 
> Vast is the size of councils when you are looking at a country the size of Scotland, go and remind yourself of the boundaries on a MAP, I bet you can even get the area's they cover in miles.
> 
> Vast is a drop in the ocean if you are comparing Russia and America for example
> 
> The maths is simple, Aberdeen and Shire cover a good size and have a lot of people combined in comparison, coupled with a lot of commuters, tourists and not the best roads....its inevitable there are going to be accidents/deaths.
> 
> As said it's good you keeping count of all the ones you see in the local press, however you are not comparing them directly to others that are happening at the same time.
> 
> People you chat with raise the same concerns as they are only up to speed with what's happening in their own back yard probably fueled with P&J/Evening Express and North tonight not having much other news to feed given.
> 
> Or do they check for accidents all over Scotland on a daily basisv to build a truly accurate picture?


The last census was 2011. That is the most accurate figures you can use for the population.

Anything else is simply quess work and more than likely inaccurate.

You're also working with an assumption that Aberdeen and the Shires' population is getting bigger and nowhere else is. Any movement in percentage is going to be so slightly it isn't going to make any difference to the percentages I've placed above.

Aberdeen and the Shires' tourism is dwarfed by other areas in Scotland.

I did realise that the thread was called Aberdeen's road safety record. I have included incidents in Aberdeenshire and highlighted them.

I don't agree that Shire roads are to solely to blame. Many of the accidents have happened in normal conditions, on normal roads found all over the country.

There is nothing spectacularly different between many of the roads.

I did look up the councils areas and they were given in area and population. Here you go.



Yes I've linked many incidents to the Aberdeen Evening Express. However I think every single one was also reported on the BBC site. Just like the BBC reported the 2 killed in the highlands a few days ago and the young guy in West Lothian on Christmas eve.

Many of the guys I work with and myself aren't Aberdeen locals. Many only work in Aberdeen and go home every single week. I go home every second week and I'm not blinded by local press.

I read "my local press" every day too.

It's clear you have the opinion the roads are fine up here.

I strongly disagree with you.


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## Kerr

GJM said:


> With a scouse drug dealer, with no licence at the wheel travelling at over 70mph who got 7 years from memory
> 
> Quite an isolated incident.


See that corner, have you ever noticed the amount of flowers there?

I know of 3 fatalities in my time in Aberdeen on that one corner. How can 3 people be killed there in under 4 years?

We discussed the one you highlighted above at the time.

I've never read what the benches say on them. I do have a feeling they are there for remembrance.

So although the guy was behaving like a complete and utter idiot, that wasn't the first major incident at that corner or on that road.

There has been a few deaths further back nearer Asda too.

It's all a 30mph zone. There should be no reason for all those isolated incidents.


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## GJM

Kerr said:


> The last census was 2011. That is the most accurate figures you can use for the population.
> 
> Anything else is simply quess work and more than likely inaccurate.
> 
> You're also working with an assumption that Aberdeen and the Shires' population is getting bigger and nowhere else is. Any movement in percentage is going to be so slightly it isn't going to make any difference to the percentages I've placed above.
> 
> Aberdeen and the Shires' tourism is dwarfed by other areas in Scotland.
> 
> I did realise that the thread was called Aberdeen's road safety record. I have included incidents in Aberdeenshire and highlighted them.
> 
> I don't agree that Shire roads are to solely to blame. Many of the accidents have happened in normal conditions, on normal roads found all over the country.
> 
> There is nothing spectacularly different between many of the roads.
> 
> I did look up the councils areas and they were given in area and population. Here you go.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes I've linked many incidents to the Aberdeen Evening Express. However I think every single one was also reported on the BBC site. Just like the BBC reported the 2 killed in the highlands a few days ago and the young guy in West Lothian on Christmas eve.
> 
> Many of the guys I work with and myself aren't Aberdeen locals. Many only work in Aberdeen and go home every single week. I go home every second week and I'm not blinded by local press.
> 
> I read "my local press" every day too.
> 
> It's clear you have the opinion the roads are fine up here.
> 
> I strongly disagree with you.


I'm sure there are figures after 2011 than can be obtained that are not guess work exactly as you put it.

I'm not working on any assumption about Aberdeen and Shire with regards to population, there are statistics out there already that showed a high percent on increase.

Tourism, the roads, area, population...the list goes on, so many differentials to take into consideration.

However the reason this thread contains a lot of rubbish is it seems to highlight on things like people having fast cars in Aberdeen etc as if that's a huge factors.

So you looked at areas and what? Does it not just show what I said, the area was up there only outdone by the ones I mentioned, making it farely vast in Scotland, coupled with amount of bodies?


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## GJM

And there havent been much of your local links of late, and when the next ones come it will add fuel to your assumptions.

In the last 4 days there have been a number of fatalities, some particulary bad ones in NI where there has been a spate, At least 2 in Lothians, One in Dundee and Two today in Fife.


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## Kerr

GJM said:


> And there havent been much of your local links of late, and when the next ones come it will add fuel to your assumptions.
> 
> In the last 4 days there have been a number of fatalities, some particulary bad ones in NI where there has been a spate, At least 2 in Lothians, One in Dundee and Two today in Fife.


It has been a dreadful few weeks. There has been quite a lot and I think I've counted 10.

It has been 2 weeks since the last death in Aberdeen/Shire. Hardly anything to be proud about.

I'm not going to carry on arguing with you. You've made your point and for a while pointlessly going round in circles. Now again making cheap shots to attempt to stir me up. Your are being petty and childish.

You've made your opinion heard, there is no need to go on and on now.


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## taylor8

There has always been a thing about the NE and having performance cars at a young age, but TBH it was always the nut jobs in the Saxos Novas corsa's 106's trying to race you that caused the issue:wall:

If you looked at what kind of cars that people were killed in they were not EVO's Scobbys BMW's etc but Fiesta's Saxo's Novas Corsa's and 106's, so i always feel that arguments rubbish!

Oh and BTW the way I lost a freind in a 106 hit a tree and split the car in half:doublesho


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## Kerr

taylor8 said:


> There has always been a thing about the NE and having performance cars at a young age, but TBH it was always the nut jobs in the Saxos Novas corsa's 106's trying to race you that caused the issue:wall:
> 
> If you looked at what kind of cars that people were killed in they were not EVO's Scobbys BMW's etc but Fiesta's Saxo's Novas Corsa's and 106's, so i always feel that arguments rubbish!
> 
> Oh and BTW the way I lost a freind in a 106 hit a tree and split the car in half:doublesho


Young drivers have more accidents. They are involved in a lot but it seems they are often involved in less serious accidents and their bodies are often more resolute to injuries caused by a crash.

That said teenager rolled a Golf GTi at Portlethen last night. He is in a really bad way.


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## Kerr

Poor young biker killed today in Bridge of Don.

http://www.eveningexpress.co.uk/news/local/biker-dies-after-crash-in-aberdeen-1.189324


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## Kerr

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-26130337

Two dead and one serious in the Shire tonight.


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## PWOOD

This won't help http://www.spa.police.uk/news/2014/jan2014/207945/ Aberdeen 999 calls to be handled in Dundee. 101 Calls to be handled in Motherwell/Govan/Edinburgh (Bilston Glen).


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## ivor

Found one new hotspot and one potential 
1)Union Square multistory
twice i've had near miss' there in the past week and seen one hit it seem to be that people don't realise you have to stop at the end of the parked cars before pulling out I girl come flying out from between two rows of parked and she just managed to swerve and avoid going head on into me , and pretty much the same with another driver ,I was leaving and saw some idiot in his brand new merc drive straight into the side of a corsa he didn't even brake it was funny though seeing him get a clip round the ear from what i can only assume was his dad lol

2)The new potential one is on the A944 where they have built the new office complex I was driving over to costco and come across the aftermath of an accident it looked like someone had pulled of the office complex and someone else had ignored the lights on the dual carriageway and took the front of the car out so i wouldn't mind betting with the locals favourite habit of jumping red lights it's going to become a blackspot


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## GJM

So the new news is fatalities have halved in the last year


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## Kerr

GJM said:


> So the new news is fatalities have halved in the last year


Heard that yesterday. It wasn't in the last year. Just the first few months of this year compared to last year.

Down to 4 so far this year.


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## Yowsah

I have been living in Aberdeen for a year now and am just waiting for a serious accident to take place on the residential 30mph road where I live (Rosehill Drive). The speed of vehicles of all types on this road is fearsome. It's not confined to young guys either. Commercials, council vehicles, older drivers etc - are all equally as bad. Short of having speed bumps (which I hate) and/or speed traps, I don't know how to solve the problem.


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## Will_G

Yowsah said:


> I have been living in Aberdeen for a year now and am just waiting for a serious accident to take place on the residential 30mph road where I live (Rosehill Drive). The speed of vehicles of all types on this road is fearsome. It's not confined to young guys either. Commercials, council vehicles, older drivers etc - are all equally as bad. Short of having speed bumps (which I hate) and/or speed traps, I don't know how to solve the problem.


Yeah it seems like a race who can get to the six roads roundabout quicker, Hilton or Rosehill. There have been a few more incidents. Least you've got a good chipper nearby (or it used to be)


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## Bero

Kerr said:


> Heard that yesterday. It wasn't in the last year. Just the first few months of this year compared to last year.
> 
> Down to 4 so far this year.


I think this is probably due to last year having an unusually high number of deaths? There's no step change initiatives or re-education that mean people are driving twice as carefully, just natural variation.


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## Will_G

Bero said:


> I think this is probably due to last year having an unusually high number of deaths? There's no step change initiatives or re-education that mean people are driving twice as carefully, just natural variation.


Did see something online about a staged crash on the Howes Rd yesterday. Not sure if that is for some kind of programme they may roll out


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## Yowsah

Will_G said:


> Yeah it seems like a race who can get to the six roads roundabout quicker, Hilton or Rosehill. There have been a few more incidents. Least you've got a good chipper nearby (or it used to be)


You're right about the chipper! It's a shame you're also right about the racing.


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## ivor

Seen two this week one I can only assume was the result of drink as you come out of Dyce towards newmachar someone had attempted to go round the railway bridge bends to fast and managed to climb the bank and hit the bridge at the top and from the state of the car he was hanging around 

Second one was on the Bridge of Don on the way out town ,somehow a learner had managed to cross over the separation island and ended up on the kerb on the other side


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## Kerr

I've not been updating this thread although I know things are getting much worse.

As pointed out in this thread it was only a matter of time before someone one of us knew was killed.

Well that's happened.

http://www.eveningexpress.co.uk/new...-to-cyclist-killed-in-aberdeen-crash-1.566708

I've known Neil since I moved to Aberdeen.

Tragic doesn't even begin to come close to covering this story.

3 young girls. One Two years old and the twins are only weeks old.

It really couldn't get much harsher than that.

RIP Neil.


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## Bero

Kerr said:


> I've not been updating this thread although I know things are getting much worse.
> 
> As pointed out in this thread it was only a matter of time before someone one of us knew was killed.
> 
> Well that's happened.
> 
> http://www.eveningexpress.co.uk/new...-to-cyclist-killed-in-aberdeen-crash-1.566708
> 
> I've known Neil since I moved to Aberdeen.
> 
> Tragic doesn't even begin to come close to covering this story.
> 
> 3 young girls. One Two years old and the twins are only weeks old.
> 
> It really couldn't get much harsher than that.
> 
> RIP Neil.


Very sad, I came across the accident just after the rd was shut. I tried to filter down the side road to get past and got real close before that rd was closed as well. With the emergency presence i feared someone had been killed.


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## GJM

Kerr said:


> I've not been updating this thread although I know things are getting much worse.


Are there any positives, as reports suggest and paint a different picture overall (ok it's Scotland as opposed to Aberdeen exclusively )

http://www.eveningexpress.co.uk/news/scotland/road-casualties-lowest-since-1950-1.641283


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## Kerr

GJM said:


> Are there any positives, as reports suggest and paint a different picture overall (ok it's Scotland as opposed to Aberdeen exclusively )
> 
> http://www.eveningexpress.co.uk/news/scotland/road-casualties-lowest-since-1950-1.641283


You'll have seen the same report that highlighted that the Shire has got worse?

I'd not be convinced the Evening Express is the best place to use. They make glaring errors on a daily basis. The Sunday Sport often reports news more accurately.

I know the people who deal with the accidents on a daily basis and the information given back is things are much worse.

We are now driving cars that are significantly safer than years before and we should expect more people to walk away without harm.

As you point out Scotland is improving, yet the same facts prove Aberdeenshire is going the opposite way for deaths. Less accidents but more deaths.

The City of Aberdeen did improve by a couple of deaths.


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## Bero

It's funny how much people and the media love to identify 'trends'.

If you take a handful of dice and roll them 3 times there is a 25% chance is a 'clear increasing(or decreasing) trend'. If it's company profits, Ebola cases or road fatalities many of these trends can be explained by statistical variance.

If the city of Aberdeen had two less road deaths last year the road safety record did not improve...it stayed the same. The difference is less than 1/2 a serious accident, or maybe 1 day of unusual weather or the luck of someone crashing in front of a trauma doctor.


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## Kerr

Bero said:


> It's funny how much people and the media love to identify 'trends'.
> 
> If you take a handful of dice and roll them 3 times there is a 25% chance is a 'clear increasing(or decreasing) trend'. If it's company profits, Ebola cases or road fatalities many of these trends can be explained by statistical variance.
> 
> If the city of Aberdeen had two less road deaths last year the road safety record did not improve...it stayed the same. The difference is less than 1/2 a serious accident, or maybe 1 day of unusual weather or the luck of someone crashing in front of a trauma doctor.


With the way modern cars are advancing, common sense should say that the number of serious injuries should drop.

There has been another few deaths in the last couple of weeks and that's before we hit the cold spell.

I've not been keeping tabs this year, but I think the figures are even worse.

I'll ask the question when I'm out for a pint with the guy with the figures.

After the last few winters when it has been mild, I do worry that this is going to be a harsh one.


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## m4rkymark

Kerr said:


> With the way modern cars are advancing, common sense should say that the number of serious injuries should drop.


Kerr unfortunately cars don't drive, people do. people believe modern cars are safer so maybe don't drive as well as they should be - it's too easy to drive at 100mph with your power steering, cosy heated seats, boom boom box blaring - people forget the dangers and take more chances because cars are safer, after all that's what all the media you read/ hear tells you 

i also believe too many people can't really drive in that they can't read the traffic, can't read the road, ignore the weather conditions and have no idea what's happening around them. Until all these issues are addressed I don't believe accident rates will come down - unfortunately though modern cars are making the driver more detached from the driving experience - cars can brake for you, they can steer for you, they can park, they can warn of danger etc. etc. the more the car does the more people will pay less attention and the less experience they will have.


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## taylor8

http://www.eveningexpress.co.uk/news/local/video-dash-cam-catches-dangerous-driver-on-a90-1.679320


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## Kerr

taylor8 said:


> http://www.eveningexpress.co.uk/news/local/video-dash-cam-catches-dangerous-driver-on-a90-1.679320


Some of the comments below are a bit worrying.

I read that the Golf driver's registration number was being bandied about, so I guess he'll get a knock at the door soon enough.


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## johanr77

No defending the golf driver, that was stupid.

However, I'd be frustrated if I was away to overtake a lorry on a straight in that neck of the woods and the guy in front of me barely speeds up and pulls out stopping anyone else having a chance of getting by. Bad driving on both parts I would say. 

The punter moved faster to get it posted to the net than they did to overtake the lorry.


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## rf860

I had to go from aberdeen to Dundee and back again today using the A90. The weather was terrible all day today, torrential rain and high winds. Driving conditions were shocking, low visiblity and loads if surface water. 

What really shocked me was that people were hammering down that road doing easily 85-90mph when they couldn't see 10ft in front of them and are driving over a lot of standing water. A little corsa in front of me aquaplaned really badly and you could tell the car was trying its best using the stability control to stay in a straight line. Needless to say they crapped themselves and slowed right down! 

I'll be the first person to admit that I don't always stick to the speed limits, but the driving I was seeing today was really quite scary. Will not be surprised if there isn't a few bad accidents tonight on that road.


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