# Best cleaner wax



## mohebmhanna (Jul 19, 2011)

Which cleaner wax is the best?


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## mohebmhanna (Jul 19, 2011)

I forgot to add: non-abrasive cleaner wax.


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## AaronGTi (Nov 2, 2010)

A great non abrasive paint cleanser is Blackfire GEP


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## aetolofitis (Jun 8, 2011)

+1 Blackfire Gep is a top product.


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## TopSport+ (Jul 22, 2012)

I like also this BlackFire


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## Tazz (Aug 23, 2010)

megs cleaner wax

dodo juice need for speed


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## bigmc (Mar 22, 2010)

Isn't need for speed abrasive?


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## Tazz (Aug 23, 2010)

ah could be right, sorry, was thinking cleanser/polish/wax


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## Neil A (Apr 18, 2006)

I can't stand the Megs Cleaner Wax, it only lasts a couple of weeks in my experience. I used to love the Zymol stuff which smells of bananas, works great on dark colours


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## Porta (Jan 3, 2007)

Duragloss 501.


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## great gonzo (Nov 4, 2010)

Werkstat Prime, followed by a quick IPA wipe down.


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## dooka (Aug 1, 2006)

Prime or Prime strong would be my choice..

Don't forget about Klasse/Carlack ..


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## DJ X-Ray (Sep 2, 2012)

Lime Prime Lite


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## Trip tdi (Sep 3, 2008)

Autofinesse tripple is a decent AIO.


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## mohebmhanna (Jul 19, 2011)

Is Autofinesse Tripple abrasive?


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## bigmc (Mar 22, 2010)

Yes, most of them are abrasive, even blackhole/white diamond are slightly abrasive.


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## Junior Bear (Sep 2, 2008)

Dodo need for speed or werkstatt prime strong


None are abrasive enough to worry about


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## great gonzo (Nov 4, 2010)

Werkstat prime is not at all abrasive but will give you a really deep clean, it does leave a sealant base behind tho so a quick IPA wipe down will leave it squeaky clean.


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## rtjc (Apr 19, 2009)

Driving your car is abrasive. Any one of these suggested products will be ideal :thumb:


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## Junior Bear (Sep 2, 2008)

'Intentionally' abrasive then


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## Trip tdi (Sep 3, 2008)

mohebmhanna said:


> Is Autofinesse Tripple abrasive?


It's a All in One that works very well, contains solvents in the content of Tripple which should aid in cleaning.
I'm not 100% certain if Tripple contains any abrasives for correcting.


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## rtjc (Apr 19, 2009)

The problem is almost all 'cleaner waxes' will have cleaners (obviously) and will be slightly abrasive as that's how they work. There are non abrasive paint cleaners which you could top with your choice of wax of course. But something like Autoglym Super Resin Polish or Dodo Need For Speed would be ideal


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## mohebmhanna (Jul 19, 2011)

How often should I use abrasive cleaner wax or AIO. Is that ok to say every 3 months without paint thickness reduction?


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## bigmc (Mar 22, 2010)

Out of all the AIO/clenasers I've tried it's a close call between blackfire gloss enhancing polish and maxolen wax polish violet closely followed by AB Cherry glaze.


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## great gonzo (Nov 4, 2010)

mohebmhanna said:


> How often should I use abrasive cleaner wax or AIO. Is that ok to say every 3 months without paint thickness reduction?


An AIO product like Tripple or need for speed can be used as much as you like while using it by hand.


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## Lowiepete (Mar 29, 2009)

rtjc said:


> The problem is almost all 'cleaner waxes' will have cleaners (obviously) and will be slightly abrasive as that's how they work.


Sorry, but that's actually wrong...

Probably the easiest pre-wax cleaner to use is the P21S/R222 PWC, closely
followed by that offered by Raceglaze. Another excellent product comes from
Serious Performance though its smell gives it away. What _all_ these products
have in common is that they clean _chemically_. Because they don't do _any_
polishing, there's no real need to follow up with risky things like IPA either.

If you're looking for a bit more protection, then Optimum's Poli-Seal will take
some beating! Again, no abrasives and its wax content gives some depth to
whatever you apply over it. It's a bit like FK1000p in its ability to take almost
anything over the top of it.

Have a look at this thread, especially post #3, which shows how well these
products work. What it also shows is that it pays to use a good cleaning pad
too.

With Season's Greetings,
Steve


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## Lowiepete (Mar 29, 2009)

mohebmhanna said:


> How often should I use abrasive cleaner wax or AIO. Is that ok to say every 3 months without paint thickness reduction?


That's a length of string question and almost entirely depends upon your
washing technique. If you avoid using harsh methods, like PWs and TFRs,
then every six months should be often enough. With the protection offered by
modern polymers I'm now experimenting with only cleaning right back once a
year. So far, I'm not seeing any need to intervene.

I've provided a detailed history of my car's care regime for the past 4 years,
and drawn a few conclusions in that time. Starting at post #145 in this thread
you'll have a breakdown of how I've arrived at this decision and how its
worked out so far. It doesn't always go to plan... 

Using the methods I've outlined, you could maintain the softest and thinnest
coatings of paint for a very long while!

With Season's Greetings,
Steve


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## millns84 (Jul 5, 2009)

Lowiepete said:


> If you're looking for a bit more protection, then Optimum's Poli-Seal will take
> some beating! Again, no abrasives and its wax content gives some depth to
> whatever you apply over it.


It's a good AIO, but it does contain abrasives.


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## Steampunk (Aug 11, 2011)

Lowiepete said:


> Sorry, but that's actually wrong...
> 
> Probably the easiest pre-wax cleaner to use is the P21S/R222 PWC, closely
> followed by that offered by Raceglaze. Another excellent product comes from
> ...


Hello Steve, and seasons greetings to you as well!

Optimum Poli-Seal does contain abrasives, and reading Optimum's literature/talking to Dr. Ghodoussi will reaffirm that. Almost every pre-wax cleanser I have researched and used contains a fine-scale abrasive powder of some nature to aid in cleaning power, though often the technical loophole of 'functionally non-abrasive' is used to describe them. Let me explain...

Products like Optimum Poli-Seal/GPS and Dodo-Juice Need For Speed are both designed to have a good bit of cut to them, the former containing a similar scale non-diminishing aluminium-oxide abrasive to Optimum Finish Polish II, and the latter sharing its diminishing abrasives with Dodo-Juice Lime Prime. Even Prima advertises Amigo Polymer Glaze as being able to remove P3000 grade abrasive scratches, something which they would not advertise unless it had some abrasive action, even if most of it would have to come from an aggressive pad. These companies clearly advertise them as being abrasive.

Where the confusion arises is with products like Car-Lack68 NSC, Klasse AIO, Blackfire GEP, Sonax Nano Paint Cleaner, ClearKote Vanilla Moose Hand Glaze, etc. My research has revealed that these all contain a sub-micron non-diminishing 'particulate' of some nature to aid in cleaning power, and whilst on most surfaces this may not be sufficient to offer much of any actual 'cut', on certain soft paints/plastics it can act surprisingly abrasive. Klasse AIO and Blackfire GEP in particular have surprised me with how much marring they can inflict on well refined soft materials, as I suspect their 'particulate' (Legally, I am not sure that I can call it an abrasive, as it will not function as one in all cases.) - despite being very small in scale - is not as well refined as one would find in a more expensive finishing polish.

This can be realized scientifically, logically, and practically. If examined under a microscope (Something which I have not personally done, though others have.), a sub-micron particulate can be seen in the chemical makeup of the product. If reasoned logically, tough staining, oxidation, and bonded contaminates need some mechanical action to remove, even if softened by solvents. Practically, if one uses these products on a soft, dark coloured paint or plastic, a small amount of correction (and in some cases, hazing/marring.) can be revealed, even on a 90+ ppi foam finishing pad.

For marketing reasons, describing these products as 'abrasive' is presumably seen as undesirable, as this could create expectations/fears that would be unwarranted.

As for your statement about IPA being risky, I would hazard to say that it is no more risky than many of the other solvents used in these paintwork cleansers.

I do not want you to take this as a personal attack against your product knowledge, or become involved in an argument over the subject. I respect your detailing advice, and always appreciate your perspective. In your situation, these products (Even slightly more abrasive ones like Poli-Seal.) may not offer noticeable abrasive action. However, this is something which I have learned through research and experience, and thought the need to share. 

Sincerely,
Steampunk


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## fotismt (Nov 13, 2012)

You mean pre-wax cleaner? If Yes, I Would recommend you Vertua Bond. 

Sent from my GT-N7000 using Tapatalk 2


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## msb (Dec 20, 2009)

The popular 3 seem to be Tripple3, srp,and need for speed, havn't actually used the latter but seems fairly well regarded


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## Trip tdi (Sep 3, 2008)

Try the new Autoglym SRP, Tripple or Zymol cleaner wax, all very good All in Ones to use on a regular basis and can be brought from Halfords over the counter as well, apart from Tripple.


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## Lowiepete (Mar 29, 2009)

Steampunk said:


> I do not want you to take this as a personal attack against your product knowledge,


Not taken in that way at all! However, I'm really surprised by your claims
about Poli-Seal! Although I do have gammy hands, I do also have heightened
senses for both drag and smoothness. Until your post, I'd have staked almost
anything in the belief that it was abrasive free. It certainly behaves in a very
different way to a polish like the gTechniq P1 and I would have put that down
to its _chemical_ effectiveness at loosening dirt, rather than any abrasiveness.

Another factor in this is whether or not swirls can be removed by using OPS. 
Have you ever used it to try and remove them, with any effect? I certainly 
haven't! The only potion I've used by hand to lessen swirls has been the P1.

Back in May I tested out some pads from Serious Performance using three
different cleaners. Bearing in mind that I don't (can't) use a great deal of
pressure, I was surprised (delighted) at the results. I'd not have put this down
to any abrasion in the product, simply because I couldn't match it with much
pressure on the paint. It can only follow that it was chemically removed, or 
so I've been believing, until now...

With Season's Greetings,
Steve


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## cypukas (Aug 24, 2012)

I used only one. Its Meguiars cleaner wax, and it is brilliant


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## absolute (Jan 19, 2010)

I reckon I'm in quite a minority here. Ag polish performs well. This I feel less abrasive, works great on all colours and leaves a wax that will last 2-4 months.

Megs #66 quick detailer! Don't be out off by the name, its no quick detailer spray, its a cleaner wax.

Great stuff, great value. Interesting to know if anyone else uses it. I love megs, tried 90% of their products and find this performs just lovely. 

Good thing is, for the less experienced it doesn't mark plastics or rubber too badly, its reversible at least. 

If you like beading, you will like this. 

Try it.


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## Steampunk (Aug 11, 2011)

Lowiepete said:


> Not taken in that way at all! However, I'm really surprised by your claims
> about Poli-Seal! Although I do have gammy hands, I do also have heightened
> senses for both drag and smoothness. Until your post, I'd have staked almost
> anything in the belief that it was abrasive free. It certainly behaves in a very
> ...


Hello,

P1 & Poli-Seal are certainly in different leagues in terms of aggression, though they both use the same types of abrasive. Poli-Seal is for all intensive purposes a SMAT finishing polish with some added solvent, polymers, and carnauba wax; by hand it will not have anything like as much swirl-busting power as GTechniq's 1-step compound. Poli-Seal can shift P2500-3000 grit sanding scratches, whereas P1 can remove up to P1000 grit marks! However, you can still get surprising correction out of this product if used in conjunction with a machine...

This article shows what Poli-Seal is capable of better than I have been able to capture so far: http://www.detailedimage.com/Ask-a-Pro/optimum-poli-seal-review/

In terms of its feel, I'm not surprised that you weren't able to feel any abrasive action. Optimum's water-based polymer lubricants are pretty special, and even their compound is so well lubricated it is almost utterly devoid of abrasive feel. I've used Optimum Polish II to correct P1500 grit sanding scratches, but running it in between my fingers it feels like a leather conditioner! Non-diminishing abrasives without any real pressure are not going to cut very deeply into the paint, and need a bit of force to do any major correction. Because Optimum's abrasives are so well buffered, this just compounds this trait, so on normal-density paint a cleaning/gloss enhancing action was probably all you were getting.

If you have some uber-soft gloss black plastic around the house (This tends to be found on electronics, especially the stuff from Microsoft. If you don't have any, some MG interior door latch trim from the 70's era will work, though in this day an age you'd probably have better luck finding a disused computer mouse! ), give all the products you thought were non-abrasive a go on it, and I think you'll be surprised! Even with no-pressure, they'll show you just how abrasive they actually are. This is how I test all my finishing polishes and cleansers before use, as literally nothing will finish down perfectly on soft plastic, but the extent of the resulting marring/hazing shows you exactly how aggressive the product is.

Hopefully this helps,

Steampunk


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## Lowiepete (Mar 29, 2009)

OK, it's my bad! I should have read the label. OPS/ Poli-Seal does declare 
that it contains abrasives. However, it's very probable that the way that I 
use it, they by no means come to the fore. In common with similar products 
that contain "micro-abrasives", they do need some fairly thorough "working" 
into the paint. Hence their greater effectiveness when used by machine which
could not ever be emulated by hand, and especially by my hands!

The opening words of the Serious Performance Paint Cleaner are... _The SP
Paint Cleaner is a non-abrasive paint cleaner_. I've no reason to disbelieve
that, simply because I've never "worked" this product, or ever felt the need to. 
The result spoke for itself in the pads review I pointed to earlier.

Steampunk, I really appreciate the detail that you've into with your replies.
However, I've not gone to that level of research and would find it quite
daunting to do so. I've always put forward a gently, gently approach to all
of my detailing, because in my view aggressiveness just makes any remedial
work just that bit harder.

As far as the Opti-Seal is concerned, I'd still stand by the quality of finish it 
provides, either to stand on its own, or as a base for something else. Within 
it, the user has a choice of whether or not they put those micro-abrasives to 
good use, or not. Clearly, I don't...

With Season's Greetings,
Steve


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## mohebmhanna (Jul 19, 2011)

Hi Steampunk,
I like your detailing reply and as usual I appreciate your inputs. Your reply is what you and I discussed about 3 months ago. I would like to ask the following question: if I used any these products such as Autofinesse AIO, DJ LPS or need for speed and BFEGP with DA and finishing pad with no cut such as CG red pad, LC CSS red pad or LC crimson. From my limited knowledge I don't expect any paint thickness reduction will apply to a paint?


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## Steampunk (Aug 11, 2011)

mohebmhanna said:


> Hi Steampunk,
> I like your detailing reply and as usual I appreciate your inputs. Your reply is what you and I discussed about 3 months ago. I would like to ask the following question: if I used any these products such as Autofinesse AIO, DJ LPS or need for speed and BFEGP with DA and finishing pad with no cut such as CG red pad, LC CSS red pad or LC crimson. From my limited knowledge I don't expect any paint thickness reduction will apply to a paint?


Dodo-Juice Lime Prime & Need for Speed are both fairly abrasive (About 3-4/10), and depending on the paint can offer significant correction; even on a finishing pad. If used periodically, you'll be fine. If used very frequently, and on soft paint, the figures will start adding up. LPL is non-abrasive, and utterly safe, and will remove zero material. Dodo-Juice Supernatural Micro-Prime is what I would look at if you want to dabble with ultra-fine abrasive cleansers, as this for all intensive purposes a jeweling polish, and a bloody good one at that! The cut is 1/10, the set time is moderate in length, it's nice and oily to work with via DA or rotary once you get a feel for it, and produces a depth and wetness on solid colours that's phenomenal. Diminishing abrasive, so work it just like you would Menzerna (Zenith-Point, up to speed 4-5 on a DA, or maybe 1200 RPM on a rotary, and back down to speed 1 for the last leg of the refinement.). Because it's so fine you can use it as frequently as you like (Unless your paint is already close to strike-through.), and you won't get into too much trouble. However, it doesn't provide much correction, so don't expect major swirl busting. For best results, the paint has to be close to perfect before use. I would even consider using it as a final step after refining with Menzerna SF4000 or Megs #205 on a finishing pad, which shows you just how fine this stuff is! The more you use it, the glossier your paint gets (Well, up to a point.).

Auto-Finesse Tripple is very fine (1/10), and has a very short cycle (45-Seconds on a DA, speeds 1-3-1), so it will have very little effect on your film thickness. Even if used frequently, you won't get into much trouble

Blackfire GEP is mostly kaolin clay filler, with a soft abrasive, and a very short work time. Again, like Tripple, it's not going to offer a whole lot in the way of micron-reduction.

However, having said that, I personally consider the latter two best suited for 'quick enhancements'. If you want to go over your car in 45-minutes and make it look a little better, those two are good options (I believe Prima Amigo would be another.). Dodo-Juice LP & NFS take a little bit longer to work, but achieve greater correction; perfect for more serious enhancement type details. If you want perfection, and don't mind putting the effort in to get it, SN Micro-Prime is where it is at.

Hopefully this helps...

Steampunk


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## Lowiepete (Mar 29, 2009)

mohebmhanna said:


> if I used any these products ... with DA and finishing pad with no cut such as CG red pad, LC CSS red pad or LC crimson. From my limited knowledge I don't expect any paint thickness reduction will apply to a paint?


Pardon my astonishment! Why on earth would you want to do this with a
machine? Assuming you started with perfectly clarified paint, and in the
interim you've been pretty careful with your washing technique, you come to 
a point, say after 6 months where you want to strip back to clearcoat.

By the time you have done decontamination routines, tar and brake dust, and
possibly followed that with a light claying, most, if not all vestiges of your
previous protection will have already been removed. That's how I read the 
situation. Please correct me if I'm wrong...

Most of the cleaning ability of pre-wax cleaners is done chemically, I'm 
thinking of something like R222/P21S PWC here. Leaving aside the machine 
for the moment, you would need to be pretty determined in applying the PWC 
by hand for it to start eating into the clearcoat. In reality however, your 
"need" at this point is to only remove what little LSP _might_ be left, with 
some emphasis on how little that might be!

I guess that it'll also be safe to assume that it was very near the end of its 
protective life anyway, which reduces the need for vigour still further.
Whereas, what it seems that you're proposing to do is escalate your workload
by factors, just to use a machine. Of course, this will also escalate your risk, 
again by factors.

Sorry, unless I've missed something, all that extra work just seems pointless, 
especially if you have concerns about remaining paint thickness. A quick hand 
application of the PWC will easily help you achieve your goal, surely?

With Season's Greetings,
Steve


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## mohebmhanna (Jul 19, 2011)

Steampunk; thanks for your inputs and I really appreciated.

Steve, 


> Pardon my astonishment! Why on earth would you want to do this with a
> machine? Assuming you started with perfectly clarified paint, and in the
> interim you've been pretty careful with your washing technique, you come to
> a point, say after 6 months where you want to strip back to clearcoat.


I agree with you in every aspect; however for me I like to use DA to discover the true effects and the crosslink between products such as DJ LPL, DJ SNMP, ect and finishing pad (no cut) on soft paints. I'm also trying to come across with the best technique and approach for controlling the DA and speed to give the most depth and glossy finish as possible with the setup in mind for avoiding paint thickness reduction. Of course you can argue me why I'm doing that but again it's just me to discover and develop new things. BTW I'm only work at this project sometimes during weekend and it's time depending.

Hopefully this helps and I wish all of you a Happy New Year.
Moheb


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## Lowiepete (Mar 29, 2009)

Hi Moheb,


mohebmhanna said:


> I agree with you in every aspect; however for me I like to use DA to discover the true effects and the crosslink between products such as DJ LPL, DJ SNMP, ect and finishing pad (no cut) on soft paints.


Words fail me... to what end? I hope that what follows doesn't sound like I'm 
blasting off at you, though I am incredulous at what I've read!

Most manufacturers create products in order to simplify processes for us.
You seem hell-bent on creating new complexities for no apparent benefit, 
especially to your paint! It's certainly not going to save any work, and it 
carries a real risk of increasing surface wear. There will be so little of the 
previous protective coating left that a DA, or any machine, is superfluous.
A gentle clean, by hand, with a good PWC fits this need perfectly.

How are you going to measure the effects and to whom will this provide any
meaningful benefit? I'll let you into a little secret, just because someone finds
an easier method of arriving at an end, does not make them any less of a
detailer! I should know, I've been advocating the simplest and most gentle
touches on DW for nigh-on 4 years.

The extremely satisfying results I have achieved prove that they work. I 
sometimes have to pinch myself to believe how good my car looks, and that 
it was me who's achieved the level of shine that it carries. Oh, and my paint 
is as soft as I'd ever want it to be, so there would be no way that I'd ever
consider compromising that any time soon.

Just because you have a DA doesn't mean you have to use it at every
opportunity. It's the canny person who can distinguish well between when to
wield it, or let it lie. Working by hand is arguably more rewarding anyway, 
especially if you have some cherished metal to care for.

Seriously, life is too short. Just enjoy the shine and being seen out enjoying it!

With Season's Greetings,
Steve


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## -Raven- (Aug 26, 2010)

Results from a pre-wax cleaner by DA > hand. You can get a nice finishing polish effect if you step up the pad, which is quite often enough to remove all wash swirls. More than safe enough to use every 3 months for the rest of the cars life!


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## mohebmhanna (Jul 19, 2011)

Hi Steve

I agree with you and I'm not ignoring the fact a gentle clean by hand using PWC will satisfy the purpose. And using DA or rotary is based on the need, however, to be honest with you I'm using DA not only for WC but also for LPS such as BF, Autofinesse, Menzerna, CG Sealant as well. And some time I do by hand too. Any way I feel is nothing wrong if I do by hand or DA every 3 months. 

Hope that help 

Thanks
Moheb


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## Yellow Dave (Apr 5, 2011)

I've gotten a little confused with this thread, as it looked like to start with talks were about all in one type products, and now has moved onto pre wax cleansers? both of which are different and serve different purposes?

What I will say though is that using either of the above type of products by DA (not rotary) does from my own findings give extra benefits over using them by hand, as at the end of the day a DA is an extended version of hand polishing (not rotary though) this may not work with all products but the likes of lime prime and tripple have certainly performed better via DA, although on well kept paint the benefit is less.


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## Lowiepete (Mar 29, 2009)

Yellow Dave said:


> ...but the likes of lime prime and tripple have certainly performed better via DA, although on well kept paint the benefit is less.


Which is basically my point. Dave, the OP has soft paint and asked about 
cleaning without risk of taking off any more clearcoat. If the paint is well
kept, especially with most modern LSPs, the need for cleaning back can
quite easily be extended well beyond every 3 months. 


-Raven- said:


> Results from a pre-wax cleaner by DA > hand. You can get a nice finishing polish effect if you step up the pad, which is quite often enough to remove all wash swirls. More than safe enough to use every 3 months for the rest of the cars life!


Oh crumbs, that makes detailing sound like a chore, rather than a pleasure.
That frequency, on cars with really soft paint, is a bit questionable too. As for
wash swirls, I'd simply modify my wash regime to obviate creating them in the 
first place. Perhaps surprisingly, this makes washing easier and quicker.

Because modern LSPs are so good at what they do, I'd be looking at boosting 
the protection, rather than replenishing from scratch so frequently. This is of 
course wholly dependant upon how much contamination the car collects in 
the interim. It's this which should determine the frequency of cleaning back.

With my soft paint, which has yet to have a machine put near it in nearly 4 
years of ownership, I'm quite seriously looking at doing clean-backs annually; 
this instead of summer and winter preps. With gammy hands, I don't want to 
be creating work for myself, though I'm not prepared to go the whole route 
with forever lasting nano products. That's for when I don't get much choice.

Not only do modern LSPs provide such good, long-lasting protection, we have
the benefit of access to some fantastic QD products that help extend both
the looks and basic protection. Caring for the paint comes back to how you 
have refined your washing process in making sure that you do as little damage
as possible at the riskiest moments.

Waxing a car is one of the most therapeutic things I can think of. The idea
of substituting a machine for this purpose, to me seems like not only overkill
but a complete emotional divorce. It isn't as if the pre-wax clean is hard work,
you _don't_ need to rub it, especially if you don't want to deplete the paint
thickness. There is no comparison as to how much pleasure can be gained
by stroking those fine curves by hand, especially when compared with having
to concentrate more on avoiding doing damage with a whirring machine.

When you get two goes at a really pleasurable task, to me, that's win, win!
I really don't get this idea that you have to somehow martyr yourself for a 
cause, especially when it's only about shiny paint...

With Season's Greetings,
Steve


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## mohebmhanna (Jul 19, 2011)

First I would like to apologize to all of you if this thread has been moved away from the original title. Pleas all accept my apology.

Second, Steve, I sent you PM. 

Happy new year to all


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## Lowiepete (Mar 29, 2009)

Hi Moheb,


mohebmhanna said:


> First I would like to apologize to all of you if this thread has been moved away from the original title. Pleas all accept my apology.
> 
> Second, Steve, I sent you PM.
> 
> Happy new year to all


Many thanks for your good wishes. There isn't any need to apologise, threads
quite often go in directions that we don't anticipate, though this one hasn't 
really deviated that much! It's how we learn from each other anyway.

In my reply to your PM, I've pointed you to a couple of threads that will 
probably give you more insight than a direct reply to your questions. That's 
why, for example, I wrote the FAQ on using ONR; so many saw me as some 
kind of guru, when I was just an enthusiastic user, and I could barely keep up
with the PMs asking for more info. IMO, trying to answer questions outside 
the public arena kinda defeats the whole point of the Forum. For starters, I 
may not have the best answers anyway!

I'm often amazed at how much extra, and (to me) needless, effort that some
people put into detailing. I possess a power washer, but when that comes
out, I take my car well off my premises before its plugged in. This is because
I have some respect for the shine on it, and how it was achieved. More often 
than not, it's the simplest approach that works best and it's often these that 
I advocate. Top of the list always is finding the most gentle approach that's
possible. It has served me very well over the past 4 years...

With Season's Greetings,
Steve


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## mohebmhanna (Jul 19, 2011)

Thanks Steve for the above link, I appreciated.

Moheb


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