# Faded red paint not reacting to anything?



## JUNAID (Apr 24, 2016)

I have an 08 Jazz with patches of red paint which have turned slightly pink. I've been using a DA machine with Meguire's ultiamte compound but all it does is smoothen the surface but not actually correct the paint. AFAIK there is no clear coat over these cars but no red paint is transferred onto the foam pad?

Any help would be appreciated, thanks.


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## turbosnoop (Apr 14, 2015)

I've got an 08 red Honda and have heard its clear coated. Never seen it transfer red onto a pad either


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## REVERSiN (Sep 28, 2015)

Too hard, maybe change for more aggressive compound as 105/101

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## nick_mcuk (Jan 4, 2008)

REVERSiN said:


> Too hard, maybe change for more aggressive compound as 105/101
> 
> Sent from my LG-H815 using Tapatalk


How is that going to help nearly all modern cars have lacquered finishes, if the paint has faded then its under that and no matter how much polishing you do it isnt going to fix it!

OP are you getting any paint transfer onto your polishing pad?? If not the only way you are going to fix the issue is respray the area.


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## chongo (Jun 7, 2014)

As above, respray but a photo would help.


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## stangalang (Nov 27, 2009)

Assuming its the same as "milano pink", the issue is the paint is not a standard primer, base, clear arrangement. The top coat is a mix of clear and colour, and as such can fade beneath the surface, meaning it cant be polished back. I forget the name of the technology, tri something or other i think. But its very common in civics so i would assume the same on a jaz


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## Flakepop (Jun 4, 2015)

Yip it's pretty much a no go, have worked on quite a few jazz, civics and accords ,it is very common. With working with a honda dealer some times we have sent cars to trade due to this problem because it makes it difficult if we take in a part exchange and say it has bumper scuffs or bad chips on bonnet or damage to doors etc, it's so hard to match and you would have the lovely nice resprayed parts but unable to match up to the rest of the car.


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## REVERSiN (Sep 28, 2015)

nick_mcuk said:


> How is that going to help nearly all modern cars have lacquered finishes, if the paint has faded then its under that and no matter how much polishing you do it isnt going to fix it!
> 
> OP are you getting any paint transfer onto your polishing pad?? If not the only way you are going to fix the issue is respray the area.


Mainly suggested that since OP said he did t get any transfer from a single stage, that with a combination of red paint is weird he should have the least amount of transfer from a single stage paint even if the color isnt close to original.

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## Titanium Htail (Mar 24, 2012)

As Stangalang mentioned the Tristage Paint is a mixture.....

John Tht.


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## JUNAID (Apr 24, 2016)

Never even heard of this Tristage Paint technology. I was told by a friend who works at the local Honda dealership that they didn't have a clear coat layer on top so I suppose that's true to an extent.

I find it strange though because I buffed a friend's S2000 which was just a couple years older with the same paint and the same problem and the paint corrected easily. I would have assumed that a more premium car like the S2000 would get this fancy Tristage technology paint or a lacquered top coat, not their budget range like the Jazz/Fit?

Is there nothing I can do at all to fix this paint like wet sanding the patches or creating some sort of reaction within the paint? I can't justify the cost of a full respray on this car tbh and would rather try something myself that can at least slightly fix the issue.


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## JUNAID (Apr 24, 2016)

stangalang said:


> Assuming its the same as "milano pink", the issue is the paint is not a standard primer, base, clear arrangement. The top coat is a mix of clear and colour, and as such can fade beneath the surface, meaning it cant be polished back. I forget the name of the technology, tri something or other i think. But its very common in civics so i would assume the same on a jaz


It all makes sense but the only thing I don't understand is why I don't get any paint on my pads at all. I'm cutting fairly strong too.


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## nick_mcuk (Jan 4, 2008)

JUNAID said:


> It all makes sense but the only thing I don't understand is why I don't get any paint on my pads at all. I'm cutting fairly strong too.


Well then to me it sounds like its deffo got a proper clear coat on it then...no visible paint would 100% prove this.

Have you tried any of the other panels?


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## squiggs (Oct 19, 2009)

I very much doubt that it's a straight 2k direct gloss - ie no lacquer - like post office vans, which can be cut back.

So it would have lacquer over the paint, meaning cutting/polishing the lacquer won't affect the paint.

I also don't think it's what painters call a 3 coat - (in my painting scheme there are no red 3 coats for an 08 Jazz - but other schemes may differ)

To explain a 3 coat: 
Most modern cars are (putting it simply) painted and then lacquered.
A 3 coat is a 'newer' thing where it's painted, but then there's a second coat of paint applied that is more or less clear with just a tiny bit of metallic or pearl added. Then it's lacquered. 
NB there is no way a 3 coat can be done with 2k direct gloss - it has to be lacquered. 

So assuming it's lacquered if the paint is going cloudy it sounds like some kind of defect ...... which would be strange for original factory finish.
Are you sure the car has never had any kind of respray work done?

It maybe worth posting some pics in the painting/spraying and bodywork section to see what the painters make of it.


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## stangalang (Nov 27, 2009)

JUNAID said:


> It all makes sense but the only thing I don't understand is why I don't get any paint on my pads at all. I'm cutting fairly strong too.


Because its a tricoat (i assume) it DOES have clear over it, but because its a blend the clear can be so thin it doesn't have enough UV protection for the red. The red fades, but as its under/inside the clear, you don't get bleeding on the pad. It can happen in patches, differ panel to panel and car to car. you only have to o one single google search and you will be flooded with people having the same problem across the honda range


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## REVERSiN (Sep 28, 2015)

A tri coat doesn't have to do with anything it's simply an additional step Cause Of the color effect (pearl) . Any pearl effect is a trip coat and includes clear no doubt, a metallic is a dual coat system since its blended with color it's not an add-on effect as Perl. 

Metallic can cover the primer without looking transparent, pearl can't cover anything hince it has the base color stage which cover instead and makes a clean background for it. 

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## nick_mcuk (Jan 4, 2008)

REVERSiN said:


> A tri coat doesn't have to do with anything it's simply an additional step Cause Of the color effect (pearl) . Any pearl effect is a trip coat and includes clear no doubt, a metallic is a dual coat system since its blended with color it's not an add-on effect as Perl.
> 
> Metallic can cover the primer without looking transparent, pearl can't cover anything hince it has the base color stage which cover instead and makes a clean background for it.
> 
> Sent from my LG-H815 using Tapatalk


Now thats a clear and concise post...nice one!


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## stangalang (Nov 27, 2009)

This is from a very quick google search

Tri-coats
Any color that has the word "Tri-coat" in the paint name listed on our site has three different coats of paint applied at the factory. The first is a basecoat of color. Next a second coat of transparent color, called the midcoat is applied and finally, a coat of clearcoat. The midcoat color is applied very thin and adds additional depth to the paint. In order to successfully match a tri-coat, you should practice on a scrap piece of metal or plastic.

They supply milano red paint for professionals. The issue seems to be the thin clear coat allowing UV to fade the below coats. 
Im not a painter, of any sort, but i have had a few pink hondas that cant be restored so did a few searches. This is the result. Honda gave me nothing nor did my local paintshop


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## squiggs (Oct 19, 2009)

It does sort of make sense that the second colour could fade/discolour.
As a painter (albeit Smart) the second coat is mainly made of a rarely used 'tint' that is clear ...... maybe it's the clear tint that fails, despite having lacquer over the top.

However ..... depending on what paint system you're using, when re-spraying, not all 3 coat colours require 3 coats - all the colour and all the pearl and/or metallic is all in the one (base)coat - then lacquer over the top. 
Yet it's possible to get a perfect match - which begs the question why were 3 stage colours invented in the first place?


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## squiggs (Oct 19, 2009)

REVERSiN said:


> A tri coat doesn't have to do with anything it's simply an additional step Cause Of the color effect (pearl) . Any pearl effect is a trip coat and includes clear no doubt, a metallic is a dual coat system since its blended with color it's not an add-on effect as Perl.
> 
> Metallic can cover the primer without looking transparent, pearl can't cover anything hince it has the base color stage which cover instead and makes a clean background for it.
> 
> Sent from my LG-H815 using Tapatalk


But plenty of colours have pearl tints in them?


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## Typeroz (Jan 10, 2016)

If Honda milano red does fade to milano 'pink' it will need resprayed. I have a Ep3 in milano red with slight fade showing recently. It's noticeable to me around where the bumpers meet the bodywork. Car is nearly 12 years old though.


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## REVERSiN (Sep 28, 2015)

squiggs said:


> It does sort of make sense that the second colour could fade/discolour.
> As a painter (albeit Smart) the second coat is mainly made of a rarely used 'tint' that is clear ...... maybe it's the clear tint that fails, despite having lacquer over the top.
> 
> However ..... depending on what paint system you're using, when re-spraying, not all 3 coat colours require 3 coats - all the colour and all the pearl and/or metallic is all in the one (base)coat - then lacquer over the top.
> Yet it's possible to get a perfect match - which begs the question why were 3 stage colours invented in the first place?


We by a coat mean a paint stage, you can't spray pearl straight with color it doesn't work that way. Pearl needs to be sprayed alone on a base color (second sprayed coat = stage 2).
The issue is simple pearl is an overlay and a light one, mixing this with the color might result in uneven pearl shade looks. As the way you spray the pearl defines how it sets on the paint.

An example of you spray front wing of a car vertically you will 95% get a different shade of color, that why usually it's sprayed horizontal.
Metallic for instance depends on the color but again even metallic can be tricky sometimes when spraying. Like pearl too much is visible as paint gets darker.

My point is pearl is at least a 2 stage system if you don't lacquer it (which you can't cause it's the protective coating), metallic is a single stage it comes blended with color.

Difference between metallic and pearl for those who can't compare and tell. Y eye, metallic is flake look closely and you can see somewhat of shiny bits looking like stars and metal pieces that glow as white with the base color.
Pearl looks different look up close and it's more like tiny grits not shiny but give a shade for the color, so look sideways and it seems like a different shade, looks round particals and very tiny, the pearl paint is usually cream,white colors.

This is pearl








This is metallic silver (can't find another color so it's a bit harder to notice)









This is unblended color can of metallic








Clouds are flake

This is the pearl overlay















As you see it transparent

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## Dream Machines (Mar 13, 2006)

The red jazz I worked on was cleared and i figured that the Aussie sun had faded all the colour from the base coat. At least that's what I thought until I just read this thread.if its tinted clear then it burnt all the colour out of the top coat. Repaint for sure


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## gally (May 25, 2008)

It's a pretty simple explanation that has been massively over complicated in here. 

Years ago they used solid colour, hence it being polishable and paint transfer. 

Honda were one of the first to use lacquer over their red, industry wording is "clear overbase" for protection, sadly it doesn't always work and the red clearly fades underneath like Milano. 

Nothing barring re-paint will help. 

The tri-stage thing does exist but not really in this case. 

You will also find a similar problem with Renault Capsicum Red, mostly on the 182 Trophy, the plastic parts and the pigment fails over time and cannot be polished due to the colour being under the lacquer.


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## paulb1976 (Nov 2, 2012)

I had a FN2 type r 07' - milano. same problem when removed badges and i'll guess its more noticeable on the plastics. - respray i'm afraid no getting round it


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