# Soft Clearcoat months after respray



## tmwalker1988

Hi,

I know the first answer is probably going to be take it back to the guy who sprayed it... I am doing but I just wanted to see if anyone can shed any light as to why this is happening.

My car got keyed down the drivers side. Took it to a garage I have used in the past for spraying. He re-sprayed the whole drivers side for me. Colour match is perfect, everything looked spot on. 

Noticed after washing the drivers side that there were a lot of holograms. Checked in the light and could see that as I wash in straight lines (rinsed, snow foamed, rinsed, two bucket method wash) that there were loads of swirl mark all down the side. It literally looked like I had used a dirty sponge. Got the DA with a very light pad and polish and got rid of them all. Applied a wax and thought maybe they hadn't done a great job polishing at the garage.

Wash the car a couple more times since and noticed the same thing again. The rest of the car is totally fine, no swirl marks at all, which points to it not being my washing technique.

The car was resprayed around 5 months ago and I would say in that time I have had to give it a once over around 3 times on the drivers side as it looks like a 10 year old car washed with a sponge after just a few washes.

Can anyone shed any light on why the clearcoat is so staying so soft, even after such a long time since it was sprayed.


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## Clueless.1

Daft question but was it a proper garage with spray booth or a mate with a lock up? If it wasn't baked at the correct temperature and time it could be that. Or maybe they haven't mixed the lacquer properly


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## tmwalker1988

Clueless.1 said:


> Daft question but was it a proper garage with spray booth or a mate with a lock up? If it wasn't baked at the correct temperature and time it could be that. Or maybe they haven't mixed the lacquer properly


It is the latter unfortunately, and obviously price was a big plus. I assume without a proper spray booth you run the risk of it not baking properly?

The guy does a lot of work though so I guess he might just of got it wrong this time. Will take it back and see if he can sort it.


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## Clueless.1

Yeah it would take a lot longer to cure properly if not baked at a high enough temperature. That's probably all it is then. Good luck


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## mr paint

Not 100% true 


Most of the products are air dry products a few specific ones lice ceramic clears anti scratch etc must be baked 

I would say its just a cheaper end clear coat that's been applied and left to air dry 

will just take time Hopefully 


Tommy


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## Aaran

yup low end clears are soft.

hardest one in the £50-60- price range i found was ppg deltron d800 clear.

pretty much any of the base offerings from ici/nexa, hb, maxmayer and lechler are all on the softer side *(like wipe with a microfiber and it will hologram the dam thing). which are fine if your car is white or your on a very limited budget. i did my own crx 4-5 years ago in hb body and it still looks great today but thats frozen white so it hides swirls well. still got great gloss to it and its lasted 4 years.

all down to the old saying, what you pay for it is nine out of ten times what your going to get.


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## Scoobycarl

I have seen this before with a cheap clear we tested out once it was hb body and was shocking ! Never seemed to go off properly even after baking with ir lamps for 2 hours ! Still felt soft and would mark if you farted near it lol,as you can imagine on a black or dark car it would show quite bad ! Also can happen if a certain clear is worked too soon ie before its properly cured !


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## Clueless.1

Aaran said:


> yup low end clears are soft.
> 
> hardest one in the £50-60- price range i found was ppg deltron d800 clear.
> 
> pretty much any of the base offerings from ici/nexa, hb, maxmayer and lechler are all on the softer side *(like wipe with a microfiber and it will hologram the dam thing). which are fine if your car is white or your on a very limited budget. i did my own crx 4-5 years ago in hb body and it still looks great today but thats frozen white so it hides swirls well. still got great gloss to it and its lasted 4 years.
> 
> all down to the old saying, what you pay for it is nine out of ten times what your going to get.


That's good to hear. It's PPG d800 I just used to respray my Leon 😀


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## supernova-dw

As has been said no fault of not using a spray booth, great results can be had regardless of where you are painting, I paint under a open sided car port and have never had any problems or complaints however I had nightmares When using a homebrew spray booth as I couldn't see what I was doing.

As for the product itself I can't comment as I live 8000 miles away and use different brands however What I use here costs the equivalent of about £30 for a 7.5L kit and gives excellent gloss and doesn't Mark easily so perhaps the cause is either the lacquer or incorrect mixing?


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## Andyb0127

Lower end clears do tend to mark easy. We paint cars in a workshop no spray booth all are infa-red dried and we don't suffer any problems. Another problem it could be is that the basecoat wasn't fully cured before laquer was applied as this can make paint feel soft and mark easy. I'm hoping for you that this isn't the case as only option is to remove the paint and start again.


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## Scoobycarl

Also i must say its not the cost of a particular clearcoat thats the issue as we now use valspar univarnish at our shop and for £50 plus vat for a 7.5 litre kit its fantastic ! Lovely to spray,great gloss,never dies back and is great to flat and polish ! To me i think its cheap too


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## rich9

Aaran said:


> yup low end clears are soft.
> 
> hardest one in the £50-60- price range i found was ppg deltron d800 clear.
> 
> pretty much any of the base offerings from ici/nexa, hb, maxmayer and lechler are all on the softer side


Interesting. I was going to try Maxmeyer 0200 as a lot of people have said it sprays nice and keeps good gloss. If it's easy to mark maybe I will try D800.

Both are non compliant, but do you find the D800 being only medium solids behaves differently?


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## steveo3002

tbh i cant see it going off after this long , 2k still airdrys fine

id say its either really cheap clear, imcompatible hardner and /or stale products


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## Aaran

rich9 said:


> Interesting. I was going to try Maxmeyer 0200 as a lot of people have said it sprays nice and keeps good gloss. If it's easy to mark maybe I will try D800.
> 
> Both are non compliant, but do you find the D800 being only medium solids behaves differently?


it is only ms clear but you can thin it less to make it a HS clear (tds gives the ratios for this). the standard mix is 2 clear to 1 hardener to 1 thinner, you can obv thin it alot less than a full 1 part.

dont get me wrong d800 marks, its still nothing on higher end clear, tbh even the super cheap hb body keeps its gloss, its just ruddy annoying that after a few months it needs cutting with a very light polish like 83 or g10 etc

also the main difference you see between ms/hs/ and uhs is the final film build per coat. hs and uhs were made mainly to get cars in and out of a shop faster as you can just lay a single grip coat then do a full wet pass with uhs clear and its done, would have the equivalent build of 2 or maybe 3 coats of ms in that single coat (hence why its dearer and why its alot harder to spray to a nice finish)

ms clears are alot nicer to spray if your not in a booth. they dust free ALOT faster than hs and uhs clears, they are also much easier to get a "flat" finish out of the gun as they are very runny and a walk in the park to wetflat and polish

would say the max mayer is as good as the d800. the lechler hs2000 is also in the same category. if you can fork out an extra £80 quids then get something like sikkens. i picked up a 7.5lt kit of sikkens superior lv for £140 delivered (thats 5lt of clear, 2.5lt of sikkens hardener and 1lt of sikkens accelerator) its harder to lay down but the durability of it is much better. you can get standox stuff for that figure to if you hunt around

dont forget that cheaper clears dont have as much uv filters as higher end ones


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## Aaran

here you go d800 on a restore of mine. customer opted for it as he is a detailer by trade and wanted somthing he could polish very quickly if needs be

first few are out of the gun, its very easy to lay, think i put 3 full coats on this (i wetflat all my cars out of my unit so latter ones are that done)


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## rich9

Many thanks for the great advice. I spray in a garage so what you have said has been really helpful.

I have been looking at Spies Hecker 8450 ceramic clear, but it is quite expensive.

Is this the Sikkens clear? It's actually not that much more than Maymeyer etc
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/151435879246

I'm a novice painter - painted 2k only once, been using 1k so far - so more and thinner coats is what I'm used to. In what way is the Sikkens harder to spray?


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## Aaran

thats the stuff. you will need the fast version though and also the hardener as thats just the clear (hardener is the same price as the clear for 2.5lt), also their fast activator if you spraying in a non heated environment


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## rich9

Thanks. It's actually the fast version in that listing just the picture shows medium, it's good that you confirmed that fast would be best.

Can you elaborate on the Sikkens being harder to spray please?


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## toddy23

This is my own car painted in maxmeyer 0200 clearcoat with two full coats,the damage was two small dents that were doing my head in and few stone chips that where skimmed with dolphin glaze








































I know few years ago one of the other painter i worked with was complaining about sikkens being still a bit sticky after bake but me personally thought he was putting his waterbase down very very wet so i thought it was this why his clear never fully cured and the job came back 6 months or so later and you could mark it with your finger nail and as you painters know sikkens is not a cheap clear


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## Andyb0127

rich9 said:


> Many thanks for the great advice. I spray in a garage so what you have said has been really helpful.
> 
> I have been looking at Spies Hecker 8450 ceramic clear, but it is quite expensive.
> 
> Is this the Sikkens clear? It's actually not that much more than Maymeyer etc
> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/151435879246
> 
> I'm a novice painter - painted 2k only once, been using 1k so far - so more and thinner coats is what I'm used to. In what way is the Sikkens harder to spray?


I'm sure the spies hecker 8450 ceramic needs to baked in an spraybooth. We used to use a spies hecker ceramic and it had to be baked for 45mins at 80. You may be better looking at spies 8035 hs clear used with 3220 fast hardner, and 9026 accelerated turning it into an express clear. But in honesty seems a bit expensive laquer to use if your a novice painter. Its the prep that will make the end result get that right and it will look right. If I was to recommend a laquer id probably say something like max Meyer 0300 clear, or lechler macrofan hs clear both about same sort of price. :thumb:


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## Aaran

rich9 said:


> Can you elaborate on the Sikkens being harder to spray please?


when you lay it in less than ideal temps you have to get it coming out of the gun correctly as its more towards the thick side of things. it lays down with orange peel but due to it taking a while to go firm it settles alot (their fast remains finger sticky for a good 30 mins or so in cooler temps) most clears are touch dry by that time. being on the thicker side its very easy for a novice to get dry spots if you dont have good lighting along with a good gun setup and technique.

to little on and it looks rough once dry and to much and it will sag, a fine line between either to.

something like lechler hs2000 is alot more user friendly. its alot thinner so very easy to pop down thin full wet coats with very little texture in it, it also drys alot faster and its much easier to wetflat, but its not as durable a finish as sikkens

stick with easy to lay clears until you can get a good selection of guns and tip sizes and more practice. either ppg or hs2000 will sort you out and are both pretty forgiving if you make an error


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## rich9

Andyb0127 said:


> I'm sure the spies hecker 8450 ceramic needs to baked in an spraybooth.


I couldn't find anything on the datasheet for it saying that it required baking. It said 12 hours air dry.



Andyb0127 said:


> But in honesty seems a bit expensive laquer to use if your a novice painter. Its the prep that will make the end result get that right and it will look right. If I was to recommend a laquer id probably say something like max Meyer 0300 clear, or lechler macrofan hs clear both about same sort of price. :thumb:


I agree, I try to take a lot of care over the prep. But it's the hardness and scratch resistance I'm interested in.

I thought MaxMeyer 0300 would be too thick and was leaning more towards the 0200.



Aaran said:


> stick with easy to lay clears until you can get a good selection of guns and tip sizes and more practice. either ppg or hs2000 will sort you out and are both pretty forgiving if you make an error


Thanks again for all the info Aaran. Is it possible to add more thinners to the Sikkens to get it to lay easier?


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## Andyb0127

rich9 said:


> I couldn't find anything on the datasheet for it saying that it required baking. It said 12 hours air dry.
> 
> I agree, I try to take a lot of care over the prep. But it's the hardness and scratch resistance I'm interested in.
> 
> I thought MaxMeyer 0300 would be too thick and was leaning more towards the 0200.
> 
> Thanks again for all the info Aaran. Is it possible to add more thinners to the Sikkens to get it to lay easier?


I've asked our spies hecker tech guy, about 8450 ceramic. And he said yes they do need to baked in and oven with a panel temp of 60, they wont air dry at all because of the ceramic in it. 
Max Meyer 0300 is fairly thick, but when we used it I tended to add 10% thinner to it to get it to flow easier.


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## billybob9351

How long was the car left before waxing? I've seen this before with a car that was waxed two days after paint and it stopped the paint from fully curing, the wax was removed and left the car for two weeks to harden and it worked


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## tmwalker1988

Rather than start a new thread thought i would update this one for more advice.

So since the last post i completly removed any protection from the side of the car just to make sure as one person mentioned that the wax wasnt preventing it from curing fully. Left it off for a good month. Polished the fine marks out with a very light pad and polish combo. 

Tried to apply gtechniq to that side of the car and just using the applicator pad literally put marks all down the side of the car from applying it. Had to remove it completly by repolishing. Put wax on instead but literally one wash and marks back in it.

Rang a sprayer recommended by a detailer i spoke too and they are quoting about £1000 to redo it all. 

The colour itself from the original respray is a perfect match. Can it not just be sanded back and re-lacquered or does it have to be completly redone? Would just a re-lacqure be cheaper? Money is a bit tight at the minute so dont really want to be shelling out £1000 but if needs must...

Im in Leeds, if anyone on here is from that area and can do spraying or knows any reputable places.


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## squiggs

It's impossible to sand off just the clear coat without damaging the paint.


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## SprayerDrew

I recently spoke with the local sikkens rep and his first words were are you baking it ? All true hs clears especially sikkens need baking to properly cure unlike the cheaper clears that can air dry.


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## SprayerDrew

I also never know how anyone can properly Repaint a car using top materials for under a few k. 
It costs me around £1300 for materials alone on a bare metal Repaint.


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## Andyb0127

SprayerDrew said:


> I recently spoke with the local sikkens rep and his first words were are you baking it ? All true hs clears especially sikkens need baking to properly cure unlike the cheaper clears that can air dry.


Very true the all need to be baked. These lower end clears that claim to be hs and air dry are leaning more towards old style ms clears, when they also claim to be anti scratch wouldn't think so cant see them being true ceramic clear for the price of a cheaper one as a true ceramic will not air dry at all has to be baked at a higher temperature and longer due to the ceramic particals in it.


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## mr paint

you could always ask and pay someone to put on bake cycle ?


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## mr paint

aimed towards original post


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## Andyb0127

If its still marking the paint, then it really needs to go back to where it was painted. No easy way of putting it but sounds like this needs paint stripping back to baremetal and starting again, as you cant just sand the laquer and re-laquer it as the problem will still be there. Did this get painted in a spraybooth because with out seeing it this sounds to me like the waterbase hasn't dried properly before applying clear coat which will make the laquer soft and still mark easily which I've seen before and that had to be removed and started again. All because the previous body shop applied far to much waterbase as it was a low hiding colour it hadn't cured properly and was still soft. 

Or did they paint it last thing in the day and just leave it in the spraybooth overnight to air dry, meaning it had no bake cycle.


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## Andyb0127

mr paint said:


> you could always ask and pay someone to put on bake cycle ?


Nothing to loose by trying this may work. :thumb:


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## mr paint

Andyb0127 said:


> Very true the all need to be baked. These lower end clears that claim to be hs and air dry are leaning more towards old style ms clears, when they also claim to be anti scratch wouldn't think so cant see them being true ceramic clear for the price of a cheaper one as a true ceramic will not air dry at all has to be baked at a higher temperature and longer due to the ceramic particals in it.


Totally agree Andy ! I had rep come around and gave us some eco -clear anti scratch free of charge so I tried it on a bumper corner ....even after 20 mins with I/r and cooled normally the day after was still soft ... thought ok ...flatten polish etc all was fine ... car was back in for wheel arch repair after 6+months ...so I thought ok try mark it with my nail ...marked no problem

as you say its all about the ceramic beads and filters they put in the clears ....only high end clears have the correct ingredients for proper anti scratch

I find with most cheaper clears the will be prone to marring and light scratching !

Debeer 814 and 614 air dry are much favoured but can pop easily if over applied or not enough flash

Tommy


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## Scoobycarl

As far as i was aware ceramic needs baking to draw the ceramic to the surface while curing so without the initial bake that wont happen ? Correct me if im wrong lol


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## silver_v

Mine was done with PPG and is P!ss poor! It's been about 2 years now and the lacquer sunk into the paint and then the lacquer has started to fall off. Crap products.

(used to work in a bodyshop)


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## squiggs

Clueless.1 said:


> Daft question but was it a proper garage with spray booth or a mate with a lock up? If it wasn't baked at the correct temperature and time it could be that. Or maybe they haven't mixed the lacquer properly





tmwalker1988 said:


> It is the latter unfortunately, and obviously price was a big plus. I assume without a proper spray booth you run the risk of it not baking properly?
> 
> The guy does a lot of work though so I guess he might just of got it wrong this time. Will take it back and see if he can sort it.





Andyb0127 said:


> If its still marking the paint, then it really needs to go back to where it was painted. No easy way of putting it but sounds like this needs paint stripping back to baremetal and starting again, as you cant just sand the laquer and re-laquer it as the problem will still be there. Did this get painted in a spraybooth because with out seeing it this sounds to me like the waterbase hasn't dried properly before applying clear coat which will make the laquer soft and still mark easily which I've seen before and that had to be removed and started again. All because the previous body shop applied far to much waterbase as it was a low hiding colour it hadn't cured properly and was still soft.
> 
> Or did they paint it last thing in the day and just leave it in the spraybooth overnight to air dry, meaning it had no bake cycle.


Andy - I think we're back to the old saying 'buy cheap - pay twice.'

There seems little point in taking it back to where it was painted - it won't get baked.


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## SprayerDrew

I was told also that " anti scratch" on a tin is a loop hole so a non compliant ms clear can be sold under laws of it being compliant by saying anti scratch. More like. "Anti polish" when dry bloody things are easier to mar than polish


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## tmwalker1988

Thanks for the replies.

I think to start off with I may try and take it to someone to see if they can give it a bake cycle and see if that helps at all. I guess it cant hurt to try. I'm assuming the best course of action for that would be to ensure there is no polish residue or LSP remaining on the affected area before I take it?

Failing that it will have to go somewhere else to be re-done. If anyone has any recommendations in and around Leeds that would be appreciated.


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## supernova-dw

tmwalker1988 said:


> Thanks for the replies.
> 
> I think to start off with I may try and take it to someone to see if they can give it a bake cycle and see if that helps at all. I guess it cant hurt to try. I'm assuming the best course of action for that would be to ensure there is no polish residue or LSP remaining on the affected area before I take it?
> 
> Failing that it will have to go somewhere else to be re-done. If anyone has any recommendations in and around Leeds that would be appreciated.


Certainly try baking it first because if the lacquer is as soft as you are suggesting then it must be due to the basecoat as has been said which would sadly require every effected panel to be taken back to bare metal!! If this is the case them the quotation of £1000 to rectify the paintwork is not right as no one could possibly do a bare metal re spray for such a small cost! The labor involved alone is massive!


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## Scoobycarl

I think its only a couple of panels bud


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## mr paint

wouldn't say bare metal .... back to sound surface ...prime ..BAKE flatten paint then BAKE lol


Tommy


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## rich9

If the panels have sat in the direct sunlight for more than a few hours (I would expect a car painted just at the start of summer to have done...) then I don't think there is anything to gain by baking.

The paint needs to come off and be redone.


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## tmwalker1988

Scoobycarl said:


> I think its only a couple of panels bud


Correct... Drivers door and rear quarter panel. It was keyed along the rear quarter.


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## supernova-dw

To be honest I'd personally want to take it to metal if I were to be warranting the paint... If not then I wouldn't guarantee the work, I'll only guarantee paintwork done over bare metal or OEM paint as you Never know what has been done by someone else.

If it's drivers door and rear quarter panel then I take back what I said about the price.... Two panels like that back to bare metal I'd do for about half that!


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