# power max tfr not ph neutral



## Clean ocd (Mar 29, 2014)

everyone is rating and saying its ph neutral this is not true its ph 13 making it a strong alkaline so its not ph neutral might change your mind from using it 
http://www.powermaxed.com/images/technical-data-sheets/PM6350-TRAFFIC-FILM-REMOVER-RTU.pdf:thumb:


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## chrisgreen (Mar 30, 2012)

I'm not aware of anyone saying it is PH neutral (also - who really cares as long as it gets the job done without dissolving the car into a rusty puddle). However, plenty have been confirming it is LSP safe at dilutions above 1:9.


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## Kimo (Jun 7, 2013)

chrisgreen said:


> I'm not aware of anyone saying it is PH neutral (also - who really cares as long as it gets the job done without dissolving the car into a rusty puddle). However, plenty have been confirming it is LSP safe at dilutions above 1:9.


For one wash yes, however it will degrade the lsp over washes quicker than a safer product

The other problem is that people top up so regularly with qd etc they don't really see how well the actual lsp is performing


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## Clean ocd (Mar 29, 2014)

a strong alkaline over time will take the lsp away


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## rottenapple (Jun 12, 2014)

If it is that high on the ph table even at dilution rates 9:1+ will still degrade your lsp. Has to be ph neutral if the car is nicely coated and wish to keep it that way.


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## davies20 (Feb 22, 2009)

I'm confused. We all love waxing so why are we fussed if this degrades the LSP marginally? 

I don't think I've ever gone more than 2-3 months without reapplying an LSP!


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## chrisgreen (Mar 30, 2012)

davies20 said:


> I'm confused. We all love waxing so why are we fussed if this degrades the LSP marginally?
> 
> I don't think I've ever gone more than 2-3 months without reapplying an LSP!


What he said! :thumb:


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## Power Maxed (Feb 12, 2014)

Its only PH13 in the concentrated form, it quickly reduces the more you dilute it

I have not seen anyone stating that it is PH neutral as of yet, as I would have corrected them.


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## lobotomy (Jun 23, 2006)

Power Maxed said:


> Its only PH13 in the concentrated form, it quickly reduces the more you dilute it
> 
> I have not seen anyone stating that it is PH neutral as of yet, as I would have corrected them.


I've not done Chemistry since Advanced Higher about 15yrs ago but a pH13 solution has 0.1mol/L [OH-] concentration and a neutral pH7 has 0.0000001mol/L, so by my simple calculations:

To get a pH solution from pH13 > pH7 you'd need to dilute 1L of pre-mixed pH13 solution with *999'999L* of water.

Even to reduce it from pH13 to pH11 you'd need to dilute 1L of pre-mixed pH13 solution with 99L of water?

So if people are making up a solution at a 1:9 ratio would be left with a *pH12 TFR*

** Please note, I'm not bashing the product! Would quite like to try it actually!


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## TopTrainer (Jun 6, 2009)

The bottom line is its good stuff and gets the muck off your car, we don't seem to complain enough about the products we buy that do not do the job we buy them for.


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## davies20 (Feb 22, 2009)

TopTrainer said:


> The bottom line is its good stuff and gets the muck off your car, we don't seem to complain enough about the products we buy that do not do the job we buy them for.


Agreed.


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## dexter101 (May 29, 2014)

As a newbie I am still learning but surely unless it dramatically removes all the wax and leaves no protection then its not really a biggie and as they say its wax safe (especially with a money back guarantee!) theres not really a lot to gain by worrying about the PH. 

Its a great product that does what I want from it, to give the car a quick way of cleaning without bucket and sponge etc. Once I am at a friends where I can wash it properly I will be waxing the car etc so more than happy to keep a record of how well the wax lasts with me using PM TFR around once a week.


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## Clean ocd (Mar 29, 2014)

dexter101 said:


> As a newbie I am still learning but surely unless it dramatically removes all the wax and leaves no protection then its not really a biggie and as they say its wax safe (especially with a money back guarantee!) theres not really a lot to gain by worrying about the PH.
> 
> Its a great product that does what I want from it, to give the car a quick way of cleaning without bucket and sponge etc. Once I am at a friends where I can wash it properly I will be waxing the car etc so more than happy to keep a record of how well the wax lasts with me using PM TFR around once a week.


ok use weekly and slowly but surely take away your lsp and left with no protection over a period of time , each to there own but i would rather have a dirty car with protection than a clean car without , and ph can make a dramatic difference especially when go into acid side of stuff so yeah still a lot to learn as you said you are a newby


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## davies20 (Feb 22, 2009)

Clean ocd said:


> ok use weekly and slowly but surely take away your lsp and left with no protection over a period of time , each to there own but i would rather have a dirty car with protection than a clean car without , and ph can make a dramatic difference especially when go into acid side of stuff so yeah still a lot to learn as you said you are a newby


If you want to really crack the can open you could argue that although the PH isn't neutral it does an amazing job of basically a 'Contactless wash'.

So trade the life of my LSP - in return for less swirls??!

I know which side of the fence I choose to sit! waxing my car gets me out of doing DIY in the house :lol:


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## Yellow Dave (Apr 5, 2011)

dexter101 said:


> As a newbie I am still learning but surely unless it dramatically removes all the wax and leaves no protection then its not really a biggie and as they say its wax safe (especially with a money back guarantee!) theres not really a lot to gain by worrying about the PH.
> 
> Its a great product that does what I want from it, to give the car a quick way of cleaning without bucket and sponge etc. Once I am at a friends where I can wash it properly I will be waxing the car etc so more than happy to keep a record of how well the wax lasts with me using PM TFR around once a week.


There's more about a product being wax safe than just the pH rating

Secondly, initial use it will probably not strip your wax. But using it won't leave it as using a shampoo. Most dedicated pre washes will initially leave your wax unaffected. As with both, continued use your wax is going to fail sooner than if not used.

What they will do is cause the wax or sealant to not work as well as it should do as it slowly degrades it sooner. So maybe it not staying as clean between washes, or not being as easy to wash. Contaminants bonded sooner than they should

I've not seen anyone say it's pH neutral, but the claims of being wax safe for continued use I have my doubts, but have started to trial the ready to use 1:50 formula myself

As long as people realise and are happy that there might be a need to re wax or top up sooner than normal then a lot of people are right, where is the harm. The trouble comes from thinking it's completely wax safe with continued long term use and blame the wax for not being as good as expected

I'm sure if a thorough test was carried out of he favourite VP citrus pre wash I bet that after continued use will show signs of degradation to a wax compared to not using it within your maintenance wash routine


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## james_death (Aug 9, 2010)

Yeah never noticed anyone say its ph neutral.

Just using water to wash will degrade any lsp drying with a cloth will degrade your lap.

If its still leaving a film of dirt however slight behind then surely its not that harsh on the lsp.

People are happy to wax etc after each wash anyway or monthly for that matter.

I use it i like it so much after first tests i got 25lt.

slightly of topic here now but...People may pan wonder wheels original to harsh etc but when you have wheels so bad your looking at 20 applications of other products and still don't get the results you want then one application of wonder wheels or possibly two sorts it so you can keep onto of it then so be it.

Im not saying Powermaxed TFR is a use once to strip everything off I'm only pointing out people can get hung up on PH levels etc.

Its each individuals decision to use what they wish no matter how a product is praised or panned the final decision is with themselves.

No matter what anyone says about a product we only truly know ourselves when we have tried it ourselves.

More than washing affects the lsp your area and environment how and where you use your vehicle etc what its exposed to is it garaged.

For me and my location a vehicles lsp last far longer if the vehicle is used rather than sat on the drive doing nothing but still washed each week or so.


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## Clean ocd (Mar 29, 2014)

james_death said:


> Yeah never noticed anyone say its ph neutral.
> 
> Just using water to wash will degrade any lap drying with a cloth will degrade your lap.
> 
> ...


said lap a few times guess you mean lsp as my macbook pro does the auto correct


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## nbray67 (Mar 22, 2012)

As said in a previous post, the majority of members wax their cars upwards of 3 times per year, some use an expensive wax then strip it back to try out another within weeks of applying the original wax.

Nobody has said it was ph neutral, somebody did ask what it's ph rating was and that was answered pretty quickly, people have asked if it's wax safe, again, if diluted as directed, then yes, it's wax safe as answered numerous times.

The basics for the majority of us is that it cleans extremely well when diluted to a ratio that is LSP safe. I have used it at 10:1 once and 20:1 twice over a 5 week period and at no stage have I topped up my LSP with anything and still my LSP is still intact and has been since Oct 2014. So 4mths in over winter and by using PM TFR over the last 5wks has had no effect at all on my LSP. (AF Tough Coat for the record)

My LSP has done me over winter and is due to be stripped back in March anyway so even if the PM TFR starts to degrade it over the coming weeks then it doesn't matter to me whatsoever.

I'm more interested in having a clean car, free of winter road grime and road salt with a LSP that will survive the winter and washes with PM TFR rather than having a dirty car wearing a LSP.

To say you'd rather have a dirty car with a LSP is slightly 'leftfield' on a site where the vast majority of us want our cars looking clean and tidy all of the time.


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## Clean ocd (Mar 29, 2014)

nbray67 said:


> As said in a previous post, the majority of members wax their cars upwards of 3 times per year, some use an expensive wax then strip it back to try out another within weeks of applying the original wax.
> 
> Nobody has said it was ph neutral, somebody did ask what it's ph rating was and that was answered pretty quickly, people have asked if it's wax safe, again, if diluted as directed, then yes, it's wax safe as answered numerous times.
> 
> ...


left field thats your perspective , or some of us are not stupid and risk breaking your pw , di vessel or other equipment that can be damaged by water freezen , so yeah give your car a winter protection so the lsp protects the paint even if it is dirty then strip back for the summer :thumb:


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## nbray67 (Mar 22, 2012)

Clean ocd said:


> left field thats your perspective , or some of us are stupid and risk breaking your pw , di vessel or other equipment that can be damaged by water freezen , so yeah give your car a winter protection so the lsp protects the paint even if it is dirty then strip back for the summer :thumb:


I wasn't knocking your opinion Clean OCD, but the majority of replies to your thread have weighed heavily on the side of the PM TFR.

Not sure what damage to PW's and DI Vessels has got to do with your original thread or with the PM TFR though. These can be damaged over winter no matter what cleaning regime you use, if you're not careful with them that is.


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## Clean ocd (Mar 29, 2014)

nbray67 said:


> I wasn't knocking your opinion Clean OCD, but the majority of replies to your thread have weighed heavily on the side of the PM TFR.
> 
> Not sure what damage to PW's and DI Vessels has got to do with your original thread or with the PM TFR though. These can be damaged over winter no matter what cleaning regime you use, if you're not careful with them that is.


not expecting everyone to go with my opinion end of day everybody has there opinion but maybe not everyone knew that its ph levels aren't so wax safe


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## chrisgreen (Mar 30, 2012)

Clean ocd said:


> left field thats your perspective , or some of us are not stupid and risk breaking your pw , di vessel or other equipment that can be damaged by water freezen , so yeah give your car a winter protection so the lsp protects the paint even if it is dirty then strip back for the summer :thumb:


Now you are just being silly.


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## Lowiepete (Mar 29, 2009)

To me, this is all back to front. If you spend a lot of time, and no less work,
and possibly not just a few pence, cleaning and protecting your car for the
winter months, just what is the point of attacking it with very aggressive
chemicals? Don't lets pretend otherwise, a TFR by its very nature is not 
"wax safe" - simple chemistry should tell you that, loud and clear!

Sometimes on here, what you're being fed is that the plain "laws" of physics
somehow don't apply when it comes to detailing products. That's absolute
nonsense. Anyone who claims that a TFR is wax safe is in denial, plain and
simple. The two are mutually exclusive! Have you not heard, that's the holy
grail of detailing? Oh, and please don't make claims about beading, that's 
another subterfuge and can of worms altogether.

Isn't the point of applying a good LSP to make subsequent washing much easier,
without creating a skating rink in the process? What happened to taking as 
much care about washing as with any other cleaning process? What about if
you have no protection left? Have you not read about the real risks of your
clearcoat going dull, or is that now another myth of denial?

Using TFR is fine if you're going to very thoroughly clean back to bare paint
ready to re-wax, but for maintenance washing? That's plain lunacy. Use it at
great risk. Oh, and the same applies with citrus cleaners, fine if you're 
degreasing, but to maintenance wash a good LSP? No!

I know I'm in the minority here, but I'd challenge anyone to outstrip my 
passion for clean _and fully protected_ paint. I'm hoping that anyone who 
does suffer damage won't be too surprised; you cannot say you weren't
warned. Consequences - anyone heard of that word?

Regards,
Steve


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## Yellow Dave (Apr 5, 2011)

Although I completely agree with what you say Steve, there is also another way of looking at it


Said person spends hours polishing their car getting the finish as good as physically possible, I want to touch the paint in following washes as little as possible to help reduce any additional marring or swirling as much as possible during the wash process. 

So some will opt to get the car as clean as possible before physically touching the paint, at the expense of needing to re apply your chosen LSP a little sooner. 

There's always a balancing act between the two


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## Goodylax (Apr 21, 2013)

^^ yea - people need to keep in mind that u are using a TFR- it's supposed to be strong and strip grime. I only use a TFR when I PLAN on reapplying a LSP- common sense?


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## cheekymonkey (Mar 15, 2008)

Yellow Dave said:


> Although I completely agree with what you say Steve, there is also another way of looking at it
> 
> Said person spends hours polishing their car getting the finish as good as physically possible, I want to touch the paint in following washes as little as possible to help reduce any additional marring or swirling as much as possible during the wash process.
> 
> ...


you also have to take into consideration what the salt etc this time of year does to the protection


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## Guitarjon (Jul 13, 2012)

I ran out of pre wash the other day and my snow foam lance has broken (despite servicing it) I had to was 3 cars without prewash and I cringed each time. In fact I burst out some cramp old stuff I used in the past and put to the side. With the amount of winter road grime on the roads I needed something to pull it all off without touching. A Ph13 TFR is far better than nothing.

As mentioned above somewhere, I'd rather be putting less swirls in my car and topping up wax coats more frequently. From my experiences of power maxed TFR it hasn't stripped any of my LSPs in over 4 washes so I'm happy. So much so that I've just ordered 25litres of concentrate.


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## s29nta (Mar 9, 2013)

davies20 said:


> I'm confused. We all love waxing so why are we fussed if this degrades the LSP marginally?
> 
> I don't think I've ever gone more than 2-3 months without reapplying an LSP!


said this myself:thumb:


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## Yellow Dave (Apr 5, 2011)

exactly cheeky monkey. There's more to consider than just the fact that using a strong cleaner will may shorten the lifespan of your LSP. 

For example the last maintenance wash after the car was covered in salt and grime after 3 weeks of use. It got a watery snow foam with valet pro ANSF, a gentle pressure wash, pre spray with ready to use power maxed TFR, full pressure rinse, another snow foam made up mostly of shampoo then washed. All this to get it as clean as possible before it's washed. 

Different factors affect what the most important aspect is at that chosen time


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## dstill (Dec 7, 2008)

:thumb:


davies20 said:


> Agreed.


Double agree.............all too often I don't get enough time to wash my car how I would like to so this is a good product for me, I would estimate after the 5 times I've used it it has removed 90% of the dirt.


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## RichieM (May 11, 2007)

its a TFR, what do you expect?


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## k9vnd (Apr 11, 2011)

With this thread in mind can we move on and remove the dreaded polish car wash talks then?..... most agree after reading this they regularly wax the cars sooner so I feel we dnt need to state the poor polish guys trying to earn a living!.


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## chrisgreen (Mar 30, 2012)

k9vnd said:


> With this thread in mind can we move on and remove the dreaded polish car wash talks then?..... most agree after reading this they regularly wax the cars sooner so I feel we dnt need to state the poor polish guys trying to earn a living!.


But we can still moan about the Albanian and Romanian scratch washers though, right?


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## nick_mcuk (Jan 4, 2008)

Clean ocd said:


> a strong alkaline over time will take the lsp away


ANY detergent will degrade an LSP over time.


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## chrisgreen (Mar 30, 2012)

nick_mcuk said:


> ANY detergent will degrade an LSP over time.


Exactly and that's the key consideration - degrade rather than strip.

Something that degrades LSP (which is likely to be most of the things we use) is far less of a concern than something so aggressive that it will completely strip LSP on first use.


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## fatdazza (Dec 29, 2010)

chrisgreen said:


> Exactly and that's the key consideration - degrade rather than strip.
> 
> Something that degrades LSP (which is likely to be most of the things we use) is far less of a concern than something so aggressive that it will completely strip LSP on first use.


Sorry but I think that is quite meaningless. What is important is how quickly it degrades the LSP.

Shampoo may degrade an LSP but it may be many washes before the LSP is gone.

TFR may degrade an LSP but it may only be 2 washes before the LSP is gone.

There is a fair difference between these two examples of product which do not strip an LSP.


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## 123HJMS (Mar 13, 2013)

I don't see the problem. VP Citrus Pre Wash isn't ph neutral and that's probably the most used prewash on the forum!


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## GleemSpray (Jan 26, 2014)

I took the decision this winter to keep it simple: 

I knew I would be cleaning the car at least every two weeks ( as I start to itch if the car looks dirty.. ) so I decided to use stronger cleaners like TFR's and then use spray wax as top up / replacement protection and it seems to be working very well.

Once the weather settles, I will put away the stronger TFR / Surfex / Snowfoams and go back to a proper paste wax and using AG BSC ph neutral shampoo.


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## Power Maxed (Feb 12, 2014)

What about I set a challenge to 3 people who don't believe in the TFR, try it out and follow our guidelines and if you still feel the same way, I'll refund you and give you 1 of our last few limited edition waxes?


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## chrisgreen (Mar 30, 2012)

fatdazza said:


> Shampoo may degrade an LSP but it may be many washes before the LSP is gone.
> 
> TFR may degrade an LSP but it may only be 2 washes before the LSP is gone.
> 
> There is a fair difference between these two examples of product which do not strip an LSP.


Surely it's all a matter of user choice and dilution rates. If you hit the car with concentrated or very strong TFR then yes, it would probably be the case that your LSP would be toast in one or two washes. However, looping back to the product that was being bashed in the original post, at weak dilution rates (I believe the ready-mixed is 1:50 and this is a recommended dilution for most uses of the product) is likely to have a very small impact on a decent LSP (after all - it's a TFR - there will be a price to pay). Is a minor hit to LSP levels worth getting worried over. I would argue probably not if the TFR does what the user wants.


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## APS (Sep 15, 2014)

I need to clean the car every week due to the mileage i do. If i didn't, i'd crash as the lights and windows are caked.
I choose to use tfr as it makes life easy when i don't have much time, it's great when i'm away from home and can use a jet wash and just take some pre-made tfr with me, and it saves me having to use a mitt and undoubtedly add to the swirls already there.

There's only so many times you can 'correct' the paint.... so avoiding swirls by use of a mitt is surely the name of the game? I would sooner apply a wax every 6 weeks than let all that road grime and salt sit on my car because 'a tfr might strip the lsp'

This is all very chicken and the egg to me.


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## nbray67 (Mar 22, 2012)

Power Maxed said:


> What about I set a challenge to 3 people who don't believe in the TFR, try it out and follow our guidelines and if you still feel the same way, I'll refund you and give you 1 of our last few limited edition waxes?


If they don't believe in it Wayne they'll take the offer up, doubt it again and end up with refund and a pot of wax as they'll not want to loose face! Let the doubters have their say, there's more liking it than not that's for sure.


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## nichol4s (Jun 16, 2012)

Power Maxed said:


> What about I set a challenge to 3 people who don't believe in the TFR, try it out and follow our guidelines and if you still feel the same way, I'll refund you and give you 1 of our last few limited edition waxes?


I was considering buying some this week to use between washes just to keep it looking cleanish, but reading this is kinda putting me off for the wrong reasons I suppose. I'd be happy to try following PM guidelines!


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## fatdazza (Dec 29, 2010)

chrisgreen said:


> Surely it's all a matter of user choice and dilution rates. If you hit the car with concentrated or very strong TFR then yes, it would probably be the case that your LSP would be toast in one or two washes. However, looping back to the product that was being bashed in the original post, at weak dilution rates (I believe the ready-mixed is 1:50 and this is a recommended dilution for most uses of the product) is likely to have a very small impact on a decent LSP (after all - it's a TFR - there will be a price to pay). Is a minor hit to LSP levels worth getting worried over. I would argue probably not if the TFR does what the user wants.


Fair point. However many on here talk about using this at a dilution of 1:9, and hence much stronger than the ready mixed version.

As some have said, you cannot deny the laws of chemistry. A chemical with a pH of 13 diluted 1:9 will have pH of 12 which is quite alkaline.


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## GleemSpray (Jan 26, 2014)

Lowiepete said:


> To me, this is all back to front. If you spend a lot of time, and no less work,
> and possibly not just a few pence, cleaning and protecting your car for the
> winter months, just what is the point of attacking it with very aggressive
> chemicals? Don't lets pretend otherwise, a TFR by its very nature is not
> ...


I do understand your arguments Steve, but how would you suggest safely cleaning a car in winter, when its caked in road salt from a hundred or more motorway miles ?

I find the PW alone wont shift it and I don't want to touch it if there is salt or grit on the paint. I have tried pre-spraying a neutral shampoo on it, but it didn't make much impact and would seem to require several pre-washs before it is safe to get the bucket out.

Some dirt will slide off a good lsp or fail to bond in the first place, but once it starts to coat the paintwork it builds quickly whatever wax / sealant is on there.


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## Power Maxed (Feb 12, 2014)

nichol4s said:


> I was considering buying some this week to use between washes just to keep it looking cleanish, but reading this is kinda putting me off for the wrong reasons I suppose. I'd be happy to try following PM guidelines!


Go for it number 1 to take the offer
Please add your forum username to order and state TFR DW

Thanks


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## nichol4s (Jun 16, 2012)

Power Maxed said:


> Go for it number 1 to take the offer
> Please add your forum username to order and state TFR DW
> 
> Thanks


Will do cheers


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## Goodylax (Apr 21, 2013)

I have only used Crudzilla TFR, but I have been dying to try the Powermaxed cause everyone is raving about it.....


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## Rob74 (Jul 29, 2012)

I've got arthritis in my spine so spending loads of time in one go is a big no no especially in the cold so for me the powermaxed TFR is the perfect solution, I get a clean car & I'm not in extra pain for the next two days. 
If it does degrade the LSP slightly (what doesn't?) then I'm ok with that after all I can reapply the wax when it warms up.


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## cheekymonkey (Mar 15, 2008)

nichol4s said:


> I was considering buying some this week to use between washes just to keep it looking cleanish, but reading this is kinda putting me off for the wrong reasons I suppose. I'd be happy to try following PM guidelines!


what lsp you using and how old is it


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## Power Maxed (Feb 12, 2014)

cheekymonkey said:


> what lsp you using and how old is it


Actually that is a good call!


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## nichol4s (Jun 16, 2012)

cheekymonkey said:


> what lsp you using and how old is it


Swissvax shield its about 18month old now (can't remember when I got it tbh) :thumb:


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## Bulkhead (Oct 17, 2007)

I may be missing the point and if so I apologise, but isn't TFR a product you'd use for stripping off major crap from your car? If so, I would expect it to take off just about everything, LSP included. If you want to maintain the LSP, I would just use a regular shampoo. I would think common sense would indicate that the more heavy-duty products are likely to remove more stuff from the paint surface. I'm lucky here as I never have much dirt on the paint, other than dust etc. However, I would use a TFR if I was wanting to strip waxes etc. from the paint and give it a really good clean.


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## Goodfella36 (Jul 21, 2009)

Auto Finesse Citrus Power has a ph 13 same thing and a good few others now if you read a lot on coatings from the manufactures not resellers they recommend keeping under ph 12 or it will degrade products same as long life plastic coatings/wheel coatings all recommend under ph12 Most of the Ph neutral pre cleaners don't quite have the power needed over winter ideally you want to look for ph11 cleaners if you are going to use them regularly I surpose the answer would be but also ones that are safe for chrome metal work as over time a lot can haze the bright-work.


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## hobbs182 (Jul 10, 2013)

Some people need to visit common sense.com...

Its a tfr common...


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## Lowiepete (Mar 29, 2009)

GleemSpray said:


> I do understand your arguments Steve, but how would you suggest safely cleaning a car in winter, when its caked in road salt from a hundred or more motorway miles ?


Strange you should ask...

My starting point would be to make a good choice about my preparation, how
clean my paint is _before_ choice of LSP. From there, there are any number of
hugely good shampoos out there. Choose one that is polymer rich and will 
enhance the protection rather than degrade it.

The whole point about choice of LSP is in how simple it is to wash subsequently. 
A good LSP will resist a fair bit of dirt. If it isn't, then maybe your preparation
wasn't right, or you have made the wrong choice. I've been on this Forum long
enough to remember when people considered a certain baby shampoo as being 
too aggressive! My, how times have changed... :doublesho

From a personal viewpoint, I have always believed that simple and gentle is
the way to go. I gather dirt on my car in winter just like anyone else, though
people have raised doubts about this. Back in the winter of 2009/10 I did
push my luck too far, and probably did more swirling to my car in just a few
washes, than in all of the following 5 years! I've never made a secret of that,
but boy, did I learn?

I'm not the best person to ask, because I cannot carry buckets, however,
I don't buy all this pre-wash nonsense either. That's just another round of 
marketing hype that I have a hard time grasping as "safe" - the chemistry 
just doesn't add up. I'm glad I paid attention in what others saw as boring 
lessons in the 1960's. All these years later, the flaws in the arguments that 
are presented as fact are all too obvious!

I've already posted my evidence on how to wash a dirty car in winter. (See
the video at the bottom of the OP). I should add that I didn't get any angry 
emails or PMs from the car's owner due to damage. That's probably because I 
added a bit of patience into the mix, which also seems missing these days. If 
I can do it with one bucket, a noodle mitt, and a pump-up spray then I see 
the whole idea of TFR staying where it was originally intended. i.e. with the 
snow-foams cleaning high-sided vehicles that know how to gather dirt!

Wayne, I have some sympathy with you. However, your promise does not go
far enough. If there's damage to the clearcoat, your promise of a wax will
fall on empty ground. No-one is denying the cleaning ability of your product,
but what is seriously, and correctly, being challenged is its place in a normal
maintenance wash.

When people talk of citrus based cleaners, the extraction of the citric element
has a by-product. It's industrial mollasses, and that's added to road salt to
help it bond to surfaces. Do you see where this is going? All I think of is
de-constructed lemons. All I'd urge anyone who is confused about it, do your
research on D-Limonene - there's a Florida manufacturer's web site which 
spells out exactly how effective it can be. Just note what they say about it 
_not_ diluting in water.

Oh, just one more thing. In the Detailing Guides section, there's a sticky
about winter detailing. See if you can find the terms "pre-wash" and "citrus"
within it...

Regards,
Steve


----------



## cheekymonkey (Mar 15, 2008)

Lowiepete said:


> Strange you should ask...
> 
> My starting point would be to make a good choice about my preparation, how
> clean my paint is _before_ choice of LSP. From there, there are any number of
> ...


Are you claiming that this product will ruin the clear coat? really. Any damage done is more likely to be from road salt and debris

In that winter detail he does a touchless wash with snow foam,A touchless wash is just a fancy name for a pre wash .
I know you have problems with your hands but, onr would be the last thing i would recomend for winter especially on soft jap paint.


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## Kash-Jnr (Mar 24, 2013)

Auto Finesse Avalanche is PH13... Don't understand, the better the pre wash stage - means reducing swirls. Everyone's hung up on LSP's.


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## adjones (Apr 24, 2013)

Of course people are jumping about TFR, if they haven't used one before! The real thing that power maxed should be praised for is getting people to do it. I still think that we should remember that it is a highly alkaline product which will accelerate the degradation of your LSP.

A couple of things to note. Firstly, it is a caustic product so don't use it too strong or you could well damage your trims. If you want something safe, you need a product more like AS Hazsafe. The other thing is that the MSDS has some obvious errors! Powermaxed - you cannot state that a material is corrosive (as with both the sodium and potassium hydroxide on the MSDS and then match it to risk phrases R36/38 - irritating to skin and eyes. The appropriate risk phrase is R35 - causes severe burns).


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## rottenapple (Jun 12, 2014)

Reading all comments here seems like so many need to go back to basics a tfr such as this is a heavy cleaner and as such should be used during a full decontamination not a weekly wash, a good product for its intended purpose, but dont get effectiveness confused with ease of use, its effective at stripping dirt for a reason.


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## dexter101 (May 29, 2014)

OK so my taking from this (as a newbie) is that I should give the car a thorough detailing (decontaminate, clay, wash, polish etc etc). I then apply my LSP.

For future washes, my personal situation results in me using the local jetwash, I would use PM TFR (I used at 15:1) and then jet wash off. 

I could then use something like Aqua Wax, red Mist tropical or some other quick detailer to "top up" the lsp for the week. I could then continue this process for a few weeks before I have the chance to rewax properly?

This to me sounds perfect for my needs/restrictions? I cant see that it does any harm and would mean the car is as clean as I want it (big distinction on this forum) and i can keep it at this level.

I would love to have a drive and be able to 2BM wash every saturday morning however this for me has to wait until finances can afford a house which isn't going to be any time soon. In the meantime, I would like to thank Power Maxed for providing a way for me to drive a clean car again.


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## delz0r (Mar 5, 2014)

Does someone have a list of PH Levels for all the commonly used Pre-Wash products? I think that would put this topic to bed.


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## nichol4s (Jun 16, 2012)

Out of interest what ratio is the ready to use??


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## dexter101 (May 29, 2014)

Believe the pre-mixed stuff is 50:1 but sure someone will correct me!


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## Kimo (Jun 7, 2013)

nichol4s said:


> Out of interest what ratio is the ready to use??


Apparently 50:1 so it's very expensive water basically


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## shakey85 (Aug 20, 2013)

dexter101 said:


> OK so my taking from this (as a newbie) is that I should give the car a thorough detailing (decontaminate, clay, wash, polish etc etc). I then apply my LSP.
> 
> For future washes, my personal situation results in me using the local jetwash, I would use PM TFR (I used at 15:1) and then jet wash off.
> 
> ...


TFR at 15:1 or even 9:1 will not get the car 100% dirt free. IMO 70% is more like it, some may say higher. Whatever the case I personally would not then go around with a QD as you will be rubbing left over dirt over/into your paint work.

You can use the TFR and then leave the car as is until you can properly 2BM wash it and then apply your protection of choice.

Just my 2 cents worth


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## GleemSpray (Jan 26, 2014)

dexter101 said:


> OK so my taking from this (as a newbie) is that I should give the car a thorough detailing (decontaminate, clay, wash, polish etc etc). I then apply my LSP.
> 
> For future washes, my personal situation results in me using the local jetwash, I would use PM TFR (I used at 15:1) and then jet wash off.
> 
> ...


If you use a TFR intended for domestic use, like the Power Maxed, at a moderate dilution like you are doing then it will take some time for the LSP to erode. The pre-mixed Power Maxed TFR in the 1 litre bottle is mixed at 50:1, to give you an idea, which would be suitable for light dirt or summer use on a car.

I have used a diluted TFR ( not the power maxed one ) in the past many times to clean HD Wax and that showed no sign of wearing away. I think it is very much down to the dilution levels. You mix it only as strong as it needs to be.

In addition, if you top it up each time with a spray wax or quick detailer that adds something, however slight, to the protection then your lsp should last for some time.

The Aqua Wax you mention is a very good product which has proper carnauba wax in it and from my own experience of using it, it will give ( as a guess-timate ) up to 2-3 weeks protection on its own before it wears away and exposes the paint or lsp underneath.

The petrol station jet washs, btw, often use very strong, concentrated TFR's in the wash program to give a very quick, instant result wash, but these are the ones that can stain plastics and trim - similar to the commercial strength TFR's that are intended for washing trucks and buses.


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## GleemSpray (Jan 26, 2014)

shakey85 said:


> TFR at 15:1 or even 9:1 will not get the car 100% dirt free. IMO 70% is more like it, some may say higher. Whatever the case I personally would not then go around with a QD as you will be rubbing left over dirt over/into your paint work.
> 
> You can use the TFR and then leave the car as is until you can properly 2BM wash it and then apply your protection of choice.
> 
> Just my 2 cents worth


This is very true.

There will always be some dirt left and really it needs hot water and shampoo to finish the job, but it depends if you have that luxary of being able to do that, I suppose.

The folks who are restricted to using a petrol station jetwash can get the car fairly clean with the TFR and at least it will be wet with rinse water when they use the QD so any paintwork micro scratching should be fairly limited.

Will still be far better than taking a sponge or old t shirt to a crusty car as many non enthusiasts do out there ...


----------



## Lowiepete (Mar 29, 2009)

Oh my word! There's some really clenching moments in some of the posts here.
All to justify using a sledghammer? :wall: There's also a lot of talk about 
dilution ratios, but I wonder: How many of you are properly _measuring_ your 
concentrate product? I'll lay odds that it's fewer than one in ten. Quite apart
from the reluctance of wearing protective gloves, in case it burns, there's 
always the extra glug "for luck". In this case for extra risk. Can people not
see the futility?

People mockingly accuse an over emphasis on the LSP. Of course we do! If 
the prep was done properly, it took a lot of hard work to get there. I'm not
going to allow a sledgehammer approach when the same thing can be done
with technique and a feather by comparison. I have far more respect for the
paint's surface, having slaved to get the finish I wanted.

My test mule is a Renault Megane Coupé. The front diamond is very badly 
marked. The most likely culprit being a highly alkaline washing solution not 
properly rinsed off and allowed to dry. There's even traces of the bubbles. 
Nothing, but nothing, will restore it, so the option is a 30 quid replacement 
from the dealer, or a 2nd hand one that might not be much better than the
original for £15. Either way, it's irrepairable damage 

Every manufacturer you can think of makes at least one shampoo that's fully
suitable for winter use. Claims to the contrary are suspect! All you need to 
look for are effective surfactants to get into and behind the dirt, and some
polymers to encapsulate the dirt it loosens. Oh, and just a drop of patience...

Regards,
Steve


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## Power Maxed (Feb 12, 2014)

Here you go, our alternative to the TFR

PH Neutral
Still has the same cleaning ability of the TFR (if not better)






And available with the current DW discount!


----------



## k9vnd (Apr 11, 2011)

chrisgreen said:


> But we can still moan about the Albanian and Romanian scratch washers though, right?


No....actually find it rather insulting tobh:thumb:


----------



## Rainbow (Oct 30, 2013)

I find this thread worthless. I haven't used PM TFR yet but I intend to do it as it suits my needs perfectly. Some of you forget that many people don't have time, conditions to properly wash their cars and STILL they want to keep their cars clean as much as possible. And I am one of these people. I wouldn't give a #24 if my lsp degrades in 2 months instead of 4 if I can just go to the local jet wash, apply the product, rinse and got a 80% clean car with a touchless cleaning in 7-10 minutes. Some of you may find post quite harsh but not everybody here lives thinking 24/7 for products and their chemical properties. In the end - does the product works? It works.


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## Kiashuma (May 4, 2011)

I don't want stuff that strips lsp, but that's because i only get the time to polish and wax twice a year if i'm lucky.

Each to there own, i'm happy with the prewash i used in my pump sprayer in the winter and my lsp seems fine.


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## chrisgreen (Mar 30, 2012)

Power Maxed said:


> Here you go, our alternative to the TFR
> 
> PH Neutral
> Still has the same cleaning ability of the TFR (if not better)
> ...


Ok - this looks interesting - can you tell us any more about it?

Is it more a snowfoam/shampoo product or is there something else to it?


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## cheekymonkey (Mar 15, 2008)

Lowiepete said:


> Oh my word! There's some really clenching moments in some of the posts here.
> All to justify using a sledghammer? :wall: There's also a lot of talk about
> dilution ratios, but I wonder: How many of you are properly _measuring_ your
> concentrate product? I'll lay odds that it's fewer than one in ten. Quite apart
> ...


thats nothing to do with the product, its down to user error. any product left to dry will cause damage if left to dry


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## rottenapple (Jun 12, 2014)

Rainbow said:


> I find this thread worthless. I haven't used PM TFR yet but I intend to do it as it suits my needs perfectly. Some of you forget that many people don't have time, conditions to properly wash their cars and STILL they want to keep their cars clean as much as possible. And I am one of these people. I wouldn't give a #24 if my lsp degrades in 2 months instead of 4 if I can just go to the local jet wash, apply the product, rinse and got a 80% clean car with a touchless cleaning in 7-10 minutes. Some of you may find post quite harsh but not everybody here lives thinking 24/7 for products and their chemical properties. In the end - does the product works? It works.


Careful care and attention to chemicals you put on your car is important, not just does it work! Pooring acid on your car would clean it wouldn't say what else it would do to trim and everything else. Its not a worthless post its educating people to be cautious of the products they use and not just spray willy nilly. Having just witnessed lack of product knowledge by a local valeting firm using a high acid cleaner for washing an engine bay, staining every hose, trim and attacking wiring. The car is now being declared a write off, all because of lack of product knowledge. So to me it is an important thread and as shown power max have a safe alternative to suggested product.


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## The_Weasel (Nov 23, 2006)

I wonder if this product had just been called *Power Maxed Pre Wash* if there'd still be so many arguments about it 

Last year I tried this and the other pre wash they do and I had a hard job deciding which one to buy in concentrated form. In the end I chose 5L TFR as it was cheaper and it looked to be a higher dilution ration. Wish now I'd bought 2.5L of each to compare over winter.

My previous thread about them
http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=344784


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## nbray67 (Mar 22, 2012)

The_Weasel said:


> I wonder if this product had just been called *Power Maxed Pre Wash* if there'd still be so many arguments about it
> 
> Last year I tried this and the other pre wash they do and I had a hard job deciding which one to buy in concentrated form. In the end I chose 5L TFR as it was cheaper and it looked to be a higher dilution ration. Wish now I'd bought 2.5L of each to compare over winter.
> 
> ...


Good shout that!

At the end of the day, the way I look at it and the comments on this thread, if punters don't want to use it because it's pH13 and it's classed as a TFR then don't use it, better still, stop charping on about it.

People are jumping on a bandwagon that was never asked for ever since members such as Rabidraccon, XtrailAndy, MDC250, Guitarjohn, Zolasbackheel, myself and many others took the time to use and review it and give DW the heads up on a damn good 'pre-wash' product.

There are lots of detailing products out there that some of us love and others loathe but I've never seen a thread like this before where a product that has received so many glowing reviews and yet, those who haven't tried it or will never try it, have piped up saying it's not doing our cars any good.

For me, like many others, I'll carry on using it at a very much diluted rate knowing full well, that the way I clean my pride and joy, it's not doing my paint, trim, badges etc etc...any harm whatsoever!!

Quick edit, this thread was started as ''pm tfr not ph neutral'', I can't recall anyone on here EVER saying it was pH neutral and that includes Wayne at PM, he has always quoted it's pH rating. In light of the thread title Clean OCD, could you please let us have the quote/thread where this pH neutral claim was mentioned, thx.

That's my 2 penneth into the pot.


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## adjones (Apr 24, 2013)

hobbs182 said:


> Some people need to visit common sense.com...
> 
> Its a tfr common...


Yeah. I am beaten. The forum treats TFR like the plague so it does not get discussed. A new name comes along and starts people talking about TFR and suddenly it is the new in thing. Do people not actually try products beyond those which forum fanboys talk about?



Lowiepete said:


> When people talk of citrus based cleaners, the extraction of the citric element
> has a by-product. It's industrial mollasses, and that's added to road salt to
> help it bond to surfaces. Do you see where this is going? All I think of is
> de-constructed lemons. All I'd urge anyone who is confused about it, do your
> ...


Oh come on. You are posting this as if on some pedestal of knowledge but it is no surprise to anyone that oil and water do not mix! It is hardly rocket science to use additives to change this non-interaction. Polish - pretty much every last one does that.



cheekymonkey said:


> thats nothing to do with the product, its down to user error. any product left to dry will cause damage if left to dry


Sorry, but the use of many stronger TFRs, which are high in caustic, will damage sensitive trims, even when used at reasonably sensible strengths.


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## cheekymonkey (Mar 15, 2008)

rottenapple said:


> Careful care and attention to chemicals you put on your car is important, not just does it work! Pooring acid on your car would clean it wouldn't say what else it would do to trim and everything else. Its not a worthless post its educating people to be cautious of the products they use and not just spray willy nilly. Having just witnessed lack of product knowledge by a local valeting firm using a high acid cleaner for washing an engine bay, staining every hose, trim and attacking wiring. The car is now being declared a write off, all because of* lack of product knowledge.* So to me it is an important thread and as shown power max have a safe alternative to suggested product.


that is spot on if you dont know what the product can do, how can you use it right, when it comes to the PH of a product, just get some litmus paper and dip it, It never lies and only costs about a £1 for about 180 on ebay.


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## cheekymonkey (Mar 15, 2008)

adjones
Sorry said:


> I never said it didn't, i was replying to the incident that was mentioned, this being the damage was due to it being allowed to dry on the car. In that situation its the users fault for allowing it to dry.


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## adjones (Apr 24, 2013)

cheekymonkey said:


> that is spot on if you dont know what the product can do, how can you use it right, when it comes to the PH of a product, just get some litmus paper and dip it, It never lies and only costs about a £1 for about 180 on ebay.


But pH only tells a part of the story. If you focus just on this, you would, for instance, decide that AS Hazsafe is dangerous - it isn't. With high pH, it is the sodium/potassium hydroxides which are the big risk, very rarely anything else. pH alone is useless, but combined with the MSDS and a tiny bit of knowledge, you can make a better judgement.


----------



## cheekymonkey (Mar 15, 2008)

adjones said:


> But pH only tells a part of the story. If you focus just on this, you would, for instance, decide that AS Hazsafe is dangerous - it isn't. With high pH, it is the sodium/potassium hydroxides which are the big risk, very rarely anything else. pH alone is useless, but combined with the MSDS and a tiny bit of knowledge, you can make a better judgement.


 the subject of this thread is the ph of the trf, Im just stating if you want to know the ph of a product the best and quickist way is with litmus paper, never meant it to come across as that is all you need


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## PyRo (Oct 25, 2014)

Actually a little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing, especially where chemicals are concerned. BTW try litmus paper on your tongue, yup, your toxic


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## cheekymonkey (Mar 15, 2008)

PyRo said:


> Actually a little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing, especially where chemicals are concerned. BTW try litmus paper on your tongue, yup, your toxic


thats why i dont lick my car no more


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## nbray67 (Mar 22, 2012)

cheekymonkey said:


> thats why i dont lick my car no more


Try litmus paper on a womans foo foo, won't stop us licking them though will it!!:lol::lol::lol:


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## m4rkymark (Aug 17, 2014)

My car has spent more time over the last few weeks covered in salt compared to the amount of time it will be covered in tfr over the course of the year. im not overly concerned about the ph of the tfr given the dilution ratio I use it at, the paint will live another day to see the light. I'm not concerned at all with the duration of my LSP because I'm happy to reapply it as and when required.


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## cheekymonkey (Mar 15, 2008)

nbray67 said:


> Try litmus paper on a womans foo foo, won't stop us licking them though will it!!:lol::lol::lol:


no but my tongue's gon a funny colour :lol:


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## APS (Sep 15, 2014)

PyRo said:


> Actually a little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing, especially where chemicals are concerned. BTW try litmus paper on your tongue, yup, your toxic


Only just. The ph of your saliva should be neutral 7 to 5.9 ish, so only slightly acidic


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## great gonzo (Nov 4, 2010)

Foo foo, never heard it called that before. lol 
Gonz.


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## nick_mcuk (Jan 4, 2008)

This whole topic makes me laugh the fan-boi's latching onto a phrase and damming it....so a few points.

TFR stands for "Traffic Film Remover"

1st point
Question: What does a pre-wash or snow foam do?
Answer: It removes traffic film tadaaaa!

Prewash and Snow Foam are fluffy marketing terms for TFR end of.

2nd point for any Snow Foam prewash to be effective its going to need some pokey surfactants or caustics in it which will invariably make it alkaline...if it doesn't it isn't going to be effective at removing heavy traffic film.

3rd point ok if something works but it will reduce the life of the LSP big deal...correct me if I am wrong are LSP's not a sacrificial layer of protection so if this layer is being eroded slowly each wash its doing its job...besides (again) correct me if I am wrong this is a car care forum so we all love cleaning, polishing and protecting our cars so whats the problem if we have to reapply the LSP slightly more often...doesn't bother me!

4th point Seriously how delicate do you think paint actually is...ok yeah you don't want to be throwing really strong Acids and Alkalies at the paint but come on people we are talking modern paint finishes here that are chemical epoxy compounds that are strong....some of you seem to think your paint is as vulnerable and delicate as a new born baby....news flash its not 

Well done to Power Max for bringing out a good value product that does it job!


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## Rob74 (Jul 29, 2012)

nick_mcuk said:


> This whole topic makes me laugh the fan-boi's latching onto a phrase and damming it....so a few points.
> 
> TFR stands for "Traffic Film Remover"
> 
> ...


That is just about word for word what my wife said about the discussion ........ Well apart from the bit about all being people who love cleaning out cars, she said something about "being sad & ott when it comes to cleaning the car" lol

I'm all for a clean & well looked after car but I think some people forget that car are designed to do a job & are not supposed to be wrapped in cotton wool but used on a day to day basis for work & taking the kids to school etc.


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## Dode (Jun 13, 2013)

Before I joined here and increased my knowledge, I used to use the local £5 wash who sprayed god knows on my car. The idea is to get your car through their premises as quick as possible, so the chemicals they used must have been pretty strong. In those days my car was not as well protected as it is today. No ill side effect were noticed. Thats my rationale.


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## AndyC (Oct 25, 2005)

In his own imitable style Mr mcuk's hit the nail smack on the head.

Pre washes need to have some stuff in them to work - whether via spray, foam or whatever. Use what you like and what works for you and as most of us use some form of LSP pretty frequently any degrading is going to be minimal.

Peace and love.


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## Lowiepete (Mar 29, 2009)

Congratulations to Nick for picking the bones out the argument. 
Now, here's the inconvenient, but nevertheless tasty, meat...

Point 1 - TFR was not designed for cars. Its intended market was high-sided
vehicles that could not be put through a standard style car-wash. The same
applies to snow-foams, especially the more alkaline/caustic types. In other
words, for those of us that can reach everywhere by hand, it's just a big
boy's toy; a dangerous one, but toy nevertheless!

Point 2. Yes these potions contains some pretty hefty chemicals. The meat 
however is that use of those chemicals are intended only for use in places 
where _all_ the run-off can be collected and properly treated. i.e. nullifying 
its harmful effects. If anyone bothers to read MSDS sheets, it'll clearly state 
that neither the product nor its run-off must be allowed to reach natural 
water courses, or public drains. MSDS sheets have legal weight, so no, you
can't pick and choose which bits you like and ignore others.

Point 3. Yes the LSP is your sacrificial layer, but pray tell, when will you get
clear indicators of when it's gone? Will that be after the 3rd wash or the 5th?
If there are silicones in the mix that are temporarily masking the damage, does
nobody care? What's also missing is the answer to what happens to the 
unprotected clear coat, oh yes, it risks going dull through chemical etching. 
Whether it's this or swirls as a choice, is moot. If you don't believe me, spend
a while reading Mike Phillips' posts on using potent chemicals.

Point 4. The car doesn't just have paint, it has masses of plastics for its
trim. If you do your research D-Limonene is a safer solvent of plastics that
can and does directly replace methyl-ethyl-keytone, aka MEK - yes the stuff 
you use to weld plastics with! Do you really want that dwelling a while on 
your car? This isn't opinion, it's fact!

Nobody is being mamby-pamby about this. In a previous post, I claimed that
every single manufacturer has shampoos that will cope with winter cleaning.
I think that all of us sounding a note of caution were completely vindicated 
by Power Maxed when they immediately introduced us to another product; 
one they claim is nowhere near as potentially harmful, which they also claim 
could be better at cleaning than their TFR... :speechles

Again, nobody is saying that TFR has no place, nor is anyone questioning its
cleaning ability. What is being said, very clearly, is that it has no place in
maintenance washing. Also, if that is your choice, then you should not shy
away from highlighting the high risks of surface damage. In other words, 
don't be making claims that it's safe and no-risk. It's currently flavour of the
month, so how long it will last is very questionable.

The _only_ reason these notes of caution are being posted is because in
reality the risks really do outweigh the benefits. I'm reminded of the words
of my Nan: a place for everything, and everything in its place...

Regards,
Steve


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## chrisgreen (Mar 30, 2012)

nick_mcuk said:


> This whole topic makes me laugh the fan-boi's latching onto a phrase and damming it....so a few points.
> 
> TFR stands for "Traffic Film Remover"
> 
> ...


Thanks Nick for a very insightful, intelligent and well-argued (without being condescending) set of points.

I for one will continue to use Power Maxed TFR (I'm moving up from the ready-mixed I've been using to a 5l of concentrate). As I said on Twitter last night, it's done the job I wanted, my LSP is still hanging in there for now and my car has not sontaneously dissolved like a Lancia Beta in a light rain shower.


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## Dode (Jun 13, 2013)

I use Tardis, not every week though. It removes my lsp immediately. This doesn't. Like Tardis you have to use it safely.


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## AndyA4TDI (May 7, 2012)

I wish people would move on, let people use what they want on their cars, most of which are daily drivers not garage queens.

If a certain product works for a particular individual, fair play, their choice.

Talk about going round in circles.


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## Clancy (Jul 21, 2013)

Never bothered with any of this ph neutral crap, use the strongest wheel cleaners and tfr etc I can find

Guess what folks, cars still here!


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## GleemSpray (Jan 26, 2014)

AndyA4TDI said:


> I wish people would move on, let people use what they want on their cars, most of which are daily drivers not garage queens.
> 
> If a certain product works for a particular individual, fair play, their choice.
> 
> Talk about going round in circles.


That's a good observation.

I have, for the most part, enjoyed this thread. I think most people have put across reasoned arguments as to why they like or dislike this product and their view of Traffic Film Removers used on car paint.

There have been interesting observations from people as to how they view the "sacrificial layer" and how they feel about trying to preserve it or letting it erode.

The downside, for me, is being lectured repeatedly, in a condescending way. I think I am intelligent enough to digest the otherwise salient facts and points, without the scattered barbs that suggest we are all too stupid to figure it out for ourselves or that we are mostly (90% of us, apparently) too slapdash to bother measuring out chemicals.

Its a shame really, It would make for really interesting reading if it wasn't so scathing and the observations are worth reading, once the flames are filtered out.

Somebody wrote a long post on here recently about despairing over where these forums are heading and ended by saying "It's a magical hobby folks and being kind to one another just has to be part of the equation."

It is a magical hobby and I would hope that we could share what we know and what we think without attacking other people for a perceived lack of knowledge on their part. I really do.


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## squiretolley (Mar 10, 2014)

GleemSpray said:


> That's a good observation.
> 
> I have, for the most part, enjoyed this thread. I think most people have put across reasoned arguments as to why they like or dislike this product and their view of Traffic Film Removers used on car paint.
> 
> ...


Well said!


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## suspal (Dec 29, 2011)

Choice is the word that I'd use,it's the individuals money and they can decide whether It's good for them or not.
What happens so often is policemen/women arrive one the scene and shout off,what I do with my money is my business and I'll choose what's best for me.


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## Power Maxed (Feb 12, 2014)

I'd still like to know where the op saw that the tfr was ph neutral 

Or is it another product as we are Power Maxed?


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## nbray67 (Mar 22, 2012)

Power Maxed said:


> I'd still like to know where the op saw that the tfr was ph neutral
> 
> Or is it another product as we are Power Maxed?


I asked the same question but he seems to have gone quiet about it.

The thing is though, starting a thread with that title has got few others to knock, speak in vain and generally put down a product that none of them have ever tried or had experience of.


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## DJ X-Ray (Sep 2, 2012)

He's probably still searching for it somewhere in his imagination


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## dak2v (Dec 27, 2012)

It really straight forward really you either use or you don't nobody is forcing anyone to use it for the few haters there 100s that will continue using & I certainly will.


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## nick_mcuk (Jan 4, 2008)

I haven't used it and probably won't simply because I have 25l of AutoGlym Advanced TFR and about 15l of Multiwash TFR left.

That being said I have seen it used (by John Hole) and its a seriously impressive product. Didn't affect the beading or sheeting on his vehicle either.


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## dstill (Dec 7, 2008)

I love it, some don't...................Marmite...................lets move on.:lol:


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## Zolasbackheel (Feb 11, 2013)

Looks like all who have used this product are defending it and those who have not tried it are knocking it. I have tried and absolutely love it. Have used on 3 cars this week, 1 was a state so I used at 5:1 as no worry over LSP. The other 2 I have recently waxed so used at 25:1 and they came up practically spotless after pressure wash down. Wayne has offered a very generous money back plus wax offer to doubters but only one has taken up so far. Seems unfair that people are making assumptions and portraying as fact without trying out the product first.


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## APS (Sep 15, 2014)

dstill said:


> .........Marmite................


Have you tried it? What's the sheeting/beading like? I can't imagine it's too easy to buff off.......


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## cheekymonkey (Mar 15, 2008)

Lowiepete said:


> Congratulations to Nick for picking the bones out the argument.
> Now, here's the inconvenient, but nevertheless tasty, meat...
> 
> Point 1 - TFR was not designed for cars. Its intended market was high-sided
> ...


some of these high sided vehicles also have a fixed cab, which believe it or not is made up from the same metal,paint and plastic as a car. they are washed with the same tfr:thumb:


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## k9vnd (Apr 11, 2011)

Power Maxed said:


> I'd still like to know where the op saw that the tfr was ph neutral
> 
> Or is it another product as we are Power Maxed?


Am just a little confused as to if there was no issues with the product in question then why have you posted an alternative product?.. if there wasn't already debated replys it would seem to me as if you were trying to divert the subject...

Mabey am reading it wrong but that's the impression I get, and on a personal note ive never tried it whether it works wonders or not and this is down to basically the products looks and labeling being poor but on insight it sounds the products are not judging by the users.


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## Yellow Dave (Apr 5, 2011)

^ they would need to be very quick chemists to read all the issues raised in this and other threads and almost instantly release a pH neutral version 

The car jet wash and wax pre wash now being shown was on their website when I ordered a few weeks back but I overlooked it as I couldn't quite understand where it stood in the process


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## Power Maxed (Feb 12, 2014)

k9vnd said:


> Am just a little confused as to if there was no issues with the product in question then why have you posted an alternative product?.. if there wasn't already debated replys it would seem to me as if you were trying to divert the subject...
> 
> Mabey am reading it wrong but that's the impression I get, and on a personal note ive never tried it whether it works wonders or not and this is down to basically the products looks and labeling being poor but on insight it sounds the products are not judging by the users.


We would like to please everyone, and bring to the market a product that does exactly what it's designed to do and what people are after. I've read loads and loads of threads of ph neutral pre washes that don't work, so here is ours that does work.

Loads of people love the TFR, which we really appreciate now we have a solution for the others expanding the TFR niche to another niche.

Try our products as always are claim of your money back if your not happy stands for the Jet wash too


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## Power Maxed (Feb 12, 2014)

Yellow Dave said:


> ^ they would need to be very quick chemists to read all the issues raised in this and other threads and almost instantly release a pH neutral version
> 
> The car jet wash and wax pre wash now being shown was on their website when I ordered a few weeks back but I overlooked it as I couldn't quite understand where it stood in the process


It's something that's been worked on for the last 11 months or so along with other products soon to be launched, the product was released but is now revamped instead of bringing a new product to the range, we just changed the formula slightly. I hope this clears this up, and any new doubts when further products are released very soon


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## cheekymonkey (Mar 15, 2008)

k9vnd said:


> Am just a little confused as to if there was no issues with the product in question then why have you posted an alternative product?.. if there wasn't already debated replys it would seem to me as if you were trying to divert the subject...
> 
> Mabey am reading it wrong but that's the impression I get, and on a personal note ive never tried it whether it works wonders or not and *this is down to basically the products looks and labeling being poor* but on insight it sounds the products are not judging by the users.


As the saying goes dont judge a book by its cover. Personally i prefer a product to do what it should at the right price, fancy labels and packaging just add to the cost with no benefit


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## MDC250 (Jan 4, 2014)

Power Maxed said:


> Try our products as always are claim of your money back if your not happy stands for the Jet wash too


That says it all to me, either PM are confident in their products or crazy...what have you got to loose in trying their products?!


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## MDC250 (Jan 4, 2014)

cheekymonkey said:


> As the saying goes dont judge a book by its cover. Personally i prefer a product to do what it should at the right price, fancy labels and packaging just add to the cost with no benefit


Couldn't agree more, although I personally think there is nothing wrong with the packaging.

Now I've tried a few bits from the range it could come in a day glow pink bottles with the soundtrack from Frozen playing and it would bother me, ultimately more important what it does.


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## Clancy (Jul 21, 2013)

k9vnd said:


> and on a personal note ive never tried it whether it works wonders or not and this is down to basically the products looks and labeling being poor but on insight it sounds the products are not judging by the users.


Really.. you wouldn't try a product regardless of countless good reviews purely because you don't like the labelling ? Jesus, each to their own but that's just silly

If they put it in a fancy titanium bottle and charged 10x the price I'm guessing it would suddenly be perfect and in no way over priced for you ?

Anyway Personally don't care about packaging, all my detailing items have been bought on review and recommendations regardless of brand, price etc


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## cheekymonkey (Mar 15, 2008)

Lowiepete said:


> Nobody is being mamby-pamby about this. In a previous post, I claimed that
> every single manufacturer has shampoos that will cope with winter cleaning.
> I think that all of us sounding a note of caution were completely vindicated
> by Power Maxed when they immediately introduced us to another product;
> ...


what a load of rubbish, you and a couple of others questioned the tfr as being unsafe because it wasnt ph neutral and giving off the impression that all there products was the devil it self, put it on your car and bang no car left just dust where it stood. that is the only reason he had to bring the other product to our notice.
All chemicals can cause damage if not used right even ph neutral. the thing i do wonder is if this product carried the label of a couple of selected retailers/manufacture would you have said the same? infact would you have got involved at all


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## nick_mcuk (Jan 4, 2008)

Well said I was going to reply to his post but quite honestly could not be arsed. 

I could spend hours picking holes in the quite frankly weak argumentative and condescending response he gave but I would rather spend the time playing with my 4 month old son. 

Your points about any chemical being used incorrectly are totally valid though and that's the point Lowiepete seems to miss and he carries on about TFR as its the spawn of the devil. I will say it again any prewash or snow foam "IS A TFR" 

As for the comparison to the truck wash he made that was totally irrelevant too this is nothing like that.


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## rottenapple (Jun 12, 2014)

I dont get where this went, to me it was a simple lesson of learning products and uses with some being used in situations which were inappropriate for the product. E.g a strong tfr for a weekly maintenance wash and the dilution rates. For me it never had anything to do with power max or its products which as said are highly recommend. Having been in the trade for numerous years and seen what misuse of chemicals can cause seeing some peoples responses rings alarm bells and was only trying to help future damage questions. But if offering help to others is seen as attacking a company makes me question why i or others bother  seems if you test products and wash your car at the weekend your knowledge is far superior to all


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## m4rkymark (Aug 17, 2014)

Lowiepete said:


> Congratulations to Nick for picking the bones out the argument.
> Now, here's the inconvenient, but nevertheless tasty, meat...


tasty meat? if you like spam maybe...



Lowiepete said:


> Point 1 - TFR was not designed for cars. Its intended market was high-sided
> vehicles that could not be put through a standard style car-wash. The same
> applies to snow-foams, especially the more alkaline/caustic types. In other
> words, for those of us that can reach everywhere by hand, it's just a big
> boy's toy; a dangerous one, but toy nevertheless!


that's nonsense - its market was cleaning vehicles nothing to do with the size of them...



Lowiepete said:


> Point 2. Yes these potions contains some pretty hefty chemicals. The meat
> however is that use of those chemicals are intended only for use in places
> where _all_ the run-off can be collected and properly treated. i.e. nullifying
> its harmful effects. If anyone bothers to read MSDS sheets, it'll clearly state
> ...


at least power maxed provide MSDS sheets unlike some of the other big manufacturers that advertise all the time on this site. They have been up front about their products.



Lowiepete said:


> Point 3. Yes the LSP is your sacrificial layer, but pray tell, when will you get
> clear indicators of when it's gone? Will that be after the 3rd wash or the 5th?
> If there are silicones in the mix that are temporarily masking the damage, does
> nobody care? What's also missing is the answer to what happens to the
> ...


car paint and clear coats are much more resilient than your making out. 3 washes of a TFR isn't going to ruin someones paint. Used is safe quantities it is doing less harm to your paint than the salt the govt. uses on roads in the winter.



Lowiepete said:


> Point 4. The car doesn't just have paint, it has masses of plastics for its
> trim. If you do your research D-Limonene is a safer solvent of plastics that
> can and does directly replace methyl-ethyl-keytone, aka MEK - yes the stuff
> you use to weld plastics with! Do you really want that dwelling a while on
> your car? This isn't opinion, it's fact!


WOW imagine MEK on your paint.. fact is there are much worse things in life that cause more damage to you as a person but people really don't care. Did you know coffee contains methylene chloride which is a known cause cancer of the lungs, liver and pancreas.

Did you know processed ham contains Potassium nitrate - its a chemical compound which is used to make fireworks and gunpowder. It also contains Sodium nitrate which creates nitrosamines once its in your stomach which are then known to cause gastric, oesophageal and colorectal cancer.

the reason for telling you about the food and drink you eat is to say that chemicals have a place in life and are used in lots of products we use day-in-day-out and are deemed safe. MEK on my paint is one of the least of my worries in life.


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## adjones (Apr 24, 2013)

m4rkymark said:


> at least power maxed provide MSDS sheets unlike some of the other big manufacturers that advertise all the time on this site. They have been up front about their products.
> 
> WOW imagine MEK on your paint.. fact is there are much worse things in life that cause more damage to you as a person but people really don't care. Did you know coffee contains methylene chloride which is a known cause cancer of the lungs, liver and pancreas.
> 
> MEK on my paint is one of the least of my worries in life.


Though, as pointed out, it took 15 seconds to spot a significant error in the MSDS! You are right though, MSDS are there for the good of the users and it is a legal obligation to make them readily available. The fact that the (possibly) the most discussed brand on the forum goes out of their way to not provide them is shameful and reflects very badly on the community.

The MEK link is a major stretch. There are any number of products which market as replacements for really dangerous ones. The truth is that they aren't always any good. MEK cannot be replaced by limonene. Put MEK onto your paint and it will be a major thing in your life because it will lift the paint. D-limonene will not. Simple.

As for all these things being TFRs - that is only half right. If you want to go that far, you could say a shampoo is a manual TFR. Over simplification is not necessarily good! TFR is traditionally a product which is a blend of sodium/potassium hydroxide with a strong cleaner like nitrilotriacetic acid (NTA). The latter is more frequently replaced these day but the product that is the topic of this thread is a text book example of this base. Snowfoams will typically be more surfactant biased and less strong (alkalinity can be provided by safer things than hydroxides), because they are intended almost uniquely for cars, not commercial use. That is not always the case and there are certainly examples of big brand products really being just that TFR base with a bit more foamy stuff. Citrus prewashes - not seen a single one which uses this base. The very nature of the limonene means that it needs extra chemistry to be incorporated (as lowiepete pointed out!).

Once again, many forum contributors are tending towards the stance that they are super knowledgable about the industry and all products but it is shockingly clear that the knowledge is typically limited to what has been discussed on here. What that means is that there is a load of stuff, quoted as fact because it is mentioned so often on DW, which is inaccurate at best because so few people look beyond.


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## AndyA4TDI (May 7, 2012)

Lowiepete, "completely vindicated " I'm sorry but you really are coming across as quite dramatic now, this is a discussion about TFR nothing more, nothing less, in the great scheme of all lifes potential problems, this is just not that important.

Steve, time to let this one go fella


Andy


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## Kiashuma (May 4, 2011)

Reading this thread makes me want to start using a £5 wash place and give up on this lark, good lord its a tfr. Use it if you want, don't use it if you don't. Read the instructions and crack on


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## Rob74 (Jul 29, 2012)

I for one can say that the powermaxed money back guarantee is genuine & not something they try & get out off. 
I tried the snowfoam when it first came out but I wasn't that impressed with it, Wayne went out of his way and got a lance the same as mine to check it worked fine (his PW is the same) but he was more than happy to give me a full refund. 
I turned down the offer as I felt it must be something I was doing wrong as all the videos & photos I had seen showed great results.

Maybe people should give it a try as you WILL be offered your money back & you will still have the rest of the product left to use. 

Keep up the good work guys


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## SPARTAN (Nov 20, 2014)

Rob74 said:


> Maybe people should give it a try as you WILL be offered your money back & you will still have the rest of the product left to use.
> 
> Oh dear, very contentious. :devil:


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## Rob74 (Jul 29, 2012)

SPARTAN said:


> Rob74 said:
> 
> 
> > Maybe people should give it a try as you WILL be offered your money back & you will still have the rest of the product left to use.
> ...


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## GleemSpray (Jan 26, 2014)

Rob74 said:


> I for one can say that the powermaxed money back guarantee is genuine & not something they try & get out off.
> I tried the snowfoam when it first came out but I wasn't that impressed with it, Wayne went out of his way and got a lance the same as mine to check it worked fine (his PW is the same) but he was more than happy to give me a full refund.
> I turned down the offer as I felt it must be something I was doing wrong as all the videos & photos I had seen showed great results.
> 
> ...


I bought the snowfoam and I get good results from it, every bit as good a clean as the TFR, but you use less of it and it clings that bit longer.

My only gripe about it is the price is a bit high. The free postage and the other stuff in the bundle effectively bought the price down though.

I will continue using it though as it is a very decent snowfoam cleaning wise.


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## Rob74 (Jul 29, 2012)

I get good results from it now but for some strange reason it wouldn't get my old Volvo clean but that could be something to do with the compleat lack of protection on the thing.


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## nbray67 (Mar 22, 2012)

Jeez!!!!

Is this thread now 132 post's long??

A few have said already, let's move on hey.

Either buy it and use it or don't buy it and stop knocking it. 

Simple really.


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## dstill (Dec 7, 2008)

APS said:


> Have you tried it? What's the sheeting/beading like? I can't imagine it's too easy to buff off.......


Lol, performs better than Vegimite............................on a sesame seed bagel:wave:


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## MDC250 (Jan 4, 2014)

nbray67 said:


> Jeez!!!!
> 
> Is this thread now 132 post's long??
> 
> ...


No such thing as bad publicity as they say 

In no small part due to this thread I've bought the Jet Wash and Wax to add to the 25 litres of TFR.

I'm sure it will be every bit as good and I've got the security of the money back guarantee.


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## dstill (Dec 7, 2008)

nbray67 said:


> Jeez!!!!
> 
> Is this thread now 132 post's long??
> 
> ...


Well said mate, although I have added to it it is incredible the length this has achieved.

Its sad that some people in this thread are somewhat disrespectful to others in the community in which they choose to be a part of, come on people, lets discuss/debate but maintain mutual respect!!


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## chrisgreen (Mar 30, 2012)

cheekymonkey said:


> the thing i do wonder is if this product carried the label of a couple of selected retailers/manufacture would you have said the same? infact would you have got involved at all


I agree. I can think of at least one three letter acronym brand that would have been put on a pedestal as superior to all others, had it been the manufacturer of the product in question, even if the ingredients were identical.


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## rottenapple (Jun 12, 2014)

Most comments by people negative to the thread were never aimed directly at the product or the brand more the user. It's the defenders and in my opinion ones who are not respecting a chemical and its uses that are bringing it down to the brand. Its always 99% user 1% product when damage is caused, due to incorrect use of chosen chemical or tool. Again stop bringing it down to brand as said over and over the argument in my eyes is over tfr and uses, not power max.


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## rottenapple (Jun 12, 2014)

Maybe start new thread tfr and its uses! And fight it away from brand.


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## GleemSpray (Jan 26, 2014)

chrisgreen said:


> I agree. I can think of at least one three letter acronym brand that would have been put on a pedestal as superior to all others, had it been the manufacturer of the product in question, even if the ingredients were identical.


The tragedy of all of this is that the three letter brand in question does makes excellent products.


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## Pittsy (Jun 14, 2014)

I just read the entire thread after avoiding it like the plague, what a palava 
I used the premix last week for the 1st time and it was brilliant, the paint is still on the car, the trim looks good and hasn't melted and more importantly the car was clean prior to the wash stage. 
What's more it was still beading like a good un with its coat of fusso and bsd so no noticeable drop off in lsp performance :thumb:
So to these ends I will be ordering 5ltrs of the stuff next week to replace my usual cpw. 
All this talk of pH neutrality has got me a bit confused, surely any cleaning solution should be either acidic or alcalinic and as long as it's used sensibly at proper dilutions it will be fine.... 
PM would not be selling a harmful or untested product because that would be a poor business model for any company. :thumb:
If Wayne says he is willing to refund you and give you a wax if it's no good then it can't be bad.
Maybe he should give you a wax if you like it:lol:


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## AndyC (Oct 25, 2005)

I bagged a bottle after seeing the results on another vehicle. I was/am impressed so I bought some. I'm not remotely bothered by its contents unless it burns the skin off my body and the paint from my car. There's also far more damaging the planet than a bottle or 3 of cleaning chemicals too.

It it's crap then I won't buy it again. There's piles of stuff I've bought which has been disappointing but I really can't be arsed to shout about it here or anywhere else. Ditto food, drink, clothing etc. 

Life's really too short chaps.


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## Juke_Fan (Jul 12, 2014)

Used PM TFR again today and am please to say the car didn't melt into a puddle on the drive......











Went for a weaker dilution this time even though the car was as dirty as usual. 20-1 rather than 9-1. Have to say this weaker mix cleaned the car just as well.

Topped up with PM QD spray and the Juke is looking as shiny as it has ever done.

Well done Power Max - great products, will be reordering soon :thumb:


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## nick_mcuk (Jan 4, 2008)

Was that picture done by Lowiepete by any chance....


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## cheekymonkey (Mar 15, 2008)

nick_mcuk said:


> Was that picture done by Lowiepete by any chance....


of cause it was he has his hard hat on safety first you know


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## Tsubodai (Oct 20, 2012)

I don't like the sound of a safety fist.


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## cheekymonkey (Mar 15, 2008)

they do come in really handy when needed


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## Rainbow (Oct 30, 2013)

Lowiepete may have different opinion about tfr's and this product in particular but I still find him as a decent and knowedgeable guy and I enjoy his thoughts and readings.


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## nick_mcuk (Jan 4, 2008)

If only he wasn't so condescending and impertinent with his responses!


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## -Kev- (Oct 30, 2007)

think we can draw a line under this one tbh..


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## nbray67 (Mar 22, 2012)

-Kev- said:


> think we can draw a line under this one tbh..


Get the thread closed Kev.

It started off on the wrong foot when the OP quoted the PM TFR as pH neutral, something completely untrue and unjust in terms of one of the traders on here.

Now the comments, regardless of their depth, are starting to get personal now.


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## DJ X-Ray (Sep 2, 2012)

Still no evidence from the Cleanocd guy to back up his claims i see.


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## Rainbow (Oct 30, 2013)

May be it was a precisely planned attack on us.  Something like throw a bone to several dogs and watch their fight.


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## GleemSpray (Jan 26, 2014)

Rainbow said:


> Lowiepete may have different opinion about tfr's and this product in particular but I still find him as a decent and knowedgeable guy and I enjoy his thoughts and readings.


Yes. Lowiepete has posted some terrific reviews and articles on these forums in the past which I enjoyed viewing. He did make some valid arguments in the thread, but ....



nick_mcuk said:


> If only he wasn't so condescending and impertinent with his responses!


This.

I think he just went a bit off-on-one, that's all.

You can't deny that he is "passionate" about detailing...

For my own part, I said what I thought about his tone at the time and hopefully its now all said and done and Pete / Steve will continue to contribute.


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## nick_mcuk (Jan 4, 2008)

GleemSpray said:


> Yes. Lowiepete has posted some terrific reviews and articles on these forums in the past which I enjoyed viewing. He did make some valid arguments in the thread, but ....
> 
> This.
> 
> ...


I do agree he has posted some good stuff....but I do wonder if he would be quite as vocal in person face to face...I suspect not and an element of "keyboard warrior" comes into play.

Also whilst we are on it he s passionate about detailing yet doesn't he almost exclusively use ONR to keep his car clean??....sorry thats not even close to detailing plus it does not really qualify for comments on other products.

I am a strong believer in you can only make an informed and constructive comment or critique if you have "actually" used a product or seen a live demo of it (like I have when John showed me).

Anyhow thats my last post on this thread...


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