# Gutted about fiat 500 being ex BSM



## jay_bmw (Jan 28, 2010)

bought my mrs fiat 500 from a fiat dealer a couple of weeks ago, they told me when i asked if it was an ex learner car - 'don't be daft' basically, got the logbook through last night- it clearly states BSM, stafford...

Not much i can do about it really but it just got my back up that they lied and the clutch will probably need to replaced sooner rather than later.

/rant


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## mikey2uk (Jun 11, 2011)

If they clearly stated it wasnt and now you have found out that it is you may have a case for the car to reject the car.


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## Raife (Jul 14, 2009)

Agreed. I would return to the dealership. Speak to the salesman AND his manager at exactly the same time DO NOT give them private time to negotiate a lie to cover themsleves, have it out in the open there and then.


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## jay_bmw (Jan 28, 2010)

they could just say they said it verbally to me though coudln't they.

i don't really want to reject the car as its pretty spot on but i'm just annoyed they didn't tell me, would be nice to get a bit of cash back or something


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## [email protected] (Apr 28, 2011)

Like above said just go confront them about it like you said you might get some cash back or they might throw in a clutch or something never know.


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## CraigQQ (Jan 20, 2011)

i'd go, get the salesman and manager together and kick up f*** until they agree to replace the clutch for free.. when it does go.


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## pooma (Apr 12, 2008)

I'd at least go confront them, if you're happy with the car try and get them to do a clutch change FOC or chuck in a little extra warranty to give you a little extra peice of mind. Shy bairns get nowt.


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## jay_bmw (Jan 28, 2010)

thanks for the help guys, might phone up today saying i'm going to have to reject the car and see what they say...


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## mikey2uk (Jun 11, 2011)

Dont phone go there face to face that way they cant try and get away with it. Always bestto deal with things like this face to face


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## calum001 (Nov 18, 2010)

if i were you i would go in and not phone, as said if you phone they will just pawn you off and tell you they will ring you back, which will give them time to come up with excuses and try to get out of it

if you go in person then they will have to sort it on the spot (in theory anyway)


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## [email protected] (Apr 28, 2011)

Agreed you should go in then they can't try fob you off.


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## The Cueball (Feb 8, 2007)

caveat emptor applies....

YOU should have done your checking before accepting the car...

They have done nothing wrong...everyone* tells little white lies when selling things, it's up to you to see through them....

All the guy has to say is I made an honest mistake...and for all you know maybe he did......

Lesson learned...the hard way...chalk it up to experience....

:thumb:

except Mike "i'm honest Guv" Brewer  :lol:


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## jay_bmw (Jan 28, 2010)

The Cueball said:


> caveat emptor applies....
> 
> YOU should have done your checking before accepting the car...
> 
> ...


to be honest i expected better from a fiat main dealer, and i clearly asked if the car was an ex leaner and they said no...

should i have got them to give me writted confirmation?


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## DampDog (Apr 16, 2011)

I'd take the exact opposite view. You asked a specific question "Is the car an ex BSM car" and you were lied to.

Put it in writing and say you intend to reject the car because it was "miss-sold" Have a look under the carpets in the passenger foot well and if the car has had duals there will be marks and hole where they were fitted. Photograph them and put it with letter.

Bare in mind that should you trade the car in you now normally have to sign a piece of paper vouching for cars history. One of those questions is normally "Has the car ever been used for instruction"

As minimum I'd want a warranty out of him in-case clutch goes prematurely.



> to be honest i expected better from a fiat main dealer


And so would I...


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## The Cueball (Feb 8, 2007)

jay_bmw said:


> to be honest i expected better from a fiat main dealer, and i clearly asked if the car was an ex leaner and they said no...
> 
> should i have got them to give me writted confirmation?


Why? 

They are there to sell cars...

Plus, why are you assuming the sales guy knew... innocent until proven gulity and all that.... 

In all honesty mate, if it mattered that much, you should have checked before buying it, and yes, got it in writing...

It's not a lie if the person didn't know the history..... and with all the cars in main dealers, I would not expect anyone to know the history of their cars...

By all means kick up a fuss, but the onus is always on the BUYER to make sure they are getting what they want.

You have not been mis-sold anything btw... you wanted a used car, you got one.... in the eyes of the LAW it doesn't matter who the previous owner was.

:thumb:


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## DampDog (Apr 16, 2011)

Just had a little look on the FIAT UK website. Their used cars are covered by 30day exchange policy. Technically they should swap car "Technically"


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## *Das* (Aug 9, 2010)

The Cueball said:


> Why?
> 
> Plus, why are you assuming the sales guy knew... innocent until proven gulity and all that....


So why did the salesman not just go and check the V5 instead of lieing? Clearly he didnt know, so instead of checking he just fobbed the OP off.


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## jay_bmw (Jan 28, 2010)

The Cueball said:


> Why?
> 
> They are there to sell cars...
> 
> ...


Like Damp Dog has said, on their little part ex sheets they have a tick box saying has the car ever been used for instruction, so i think i will be mentioning this.

I imagine if you were in my shoes you'd kick up a fuss to try and get some money back.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing, i just guess i wasnt expecting to be sold an ex learner car.


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## DampDog (Apr 16, 2011)

jay_bmw said:


> bought my mrs fiat 500 from a fiat dealer a couple of weeks ago, they told me when i asked if it was an ex learner car - 'don't be daft' basically, got the logbook through last night- it clearly states BSM, stafford...


There's a world of difference between "not asking" and "asking" a specific question. You're dead right car salesmen haven't got a clue where cars come from or who owned them. If he didn't know he should have said so. SO it is a "Lie" if he said or inferred it wasn't BSM.

The Buyer did do the right thing, made it plain he's didn't want an ex BSM car.

As said kick up a fuss, let us know what the outcome is.


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## The Cueball (Feb 8, 2007)

DasArab said:


> So why did the salesman not just go and check the V5 instead of lieing? Clearly he didnt know, so instead of checking he just fobbed the OP off.


Oh please... listen to yourself...:lol::lol::lol: :wall:

All the OP had to do was say, can I see the document or other proof.





jay_bmw said:


> Like Damp Dog has said, on their little part ex sheets they have a tick box saying has the car ever been used for instruction, so i think i will be mentioning this.
> 
> I imagine if you were in my shoes you'd kick up a fuss to try and get some money back.
> 
> Hindsight is a wonderful thing, i just guess i wasnt expecting to be sold an ex learner car.


Don't buy a used Fiat 500 then! :lol:

I hope you get it sorted, but I'm just trying to explain that they have done nothing wrong...

You, and several others seem to be out for blood, and you have been lied to, and the sales guy has done it to you on purpose... fine... all hurt and bothered because YOU didn't check things out properly...

You and everyone else (including me) have NO PROOF that you were lied to.... and it's really pathetic that people are saying that... it could be a genuine error... but that of course means it's just a mistake...it doesn't satisfy the blood hounds, the judge, jury and executioners...

I'm not into this sort of BS... I hate the "everyone is out to get me, and it's everyone else fault, where there's blame, there's a claim culture"

I am just giving an educated, unbiased answer to a situation, and sorry to upset you, but YOU got it wrong - they have done nothing wrong, that you can prove.

Sales of Goods act states that you can return or reject goods under certain situations:

Is the car of satisfactory quality... yes, it's a used car, which you are happy with (with the exception of the previous owner)

Is the car fit for purpose - yes, it goes, slows, stops - there is no apparent damage or anything broke.

And finally was a contract formed... yes, you asked to buy a used car, they sold you one... did you make the correct previous owners part of the contract, no

If it's not what you want to hear, fine... most people side with the people telling them what they want to hear anyway....

Good luck, as DampDog says, Fiat have a 30 day return policy, so just nip down, say that you want to change the car over.... simple...but please, make sure you check the previous owners out!

Go down, nice and calm, explain you are not happy, and I'm sure they will be good enough to change it over... not sure if they will have any that are not ex learners mind you?!?!?

:thumb:


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## SarahAnn (Apr 6, 2011)

It's a question i would never think to ask but i usually buy a big barge so lucky i suppose that they wouldnt be used.
I would definitely say something as i'd hate to think i had bought a car that had been practised in by learner drivers. 
"Crunch, crunch" as they try to get it in gear.


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## jay_bmw (Jan 28, 2010)

cueball you seem to be ignorant to the fact that i DID my research, found out that some 500's have been ex learner cars , and i asked the dealer clearly if it had been one - i thought that would be enough. 

you seem to get me wrong, i come on here for a bit of a rant, i've stated in previous posts, im clearly not after blood and im quite happy to keep the car, where have i come across like that i don't quite know but you have got me very wrong.

i suggest you get off your soap box and give me a break, i've got some good advice , but no need to have a go at me for having a little rant and expecting better of a main dealer not some backstreet garage.


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## The Cueball (Feb 8, 2007)

jay_bmw said:


> cueball you seem to be ignorant to the fact that i DID my research, found out that some 500's have been ex learner cars , and i asked the dealer clearly if it had been one - i thought that would be enough.
> 
> you seem to get me wrong, i come on here for a bit of a rant, i've stated in previous posts, im clearly not after blood and im quite happy to keep the car, where have i come across like that i don't quite know but you have got me very wrong.
> 
> i suggest you get off your soap box and give me a break, i've got some good advice , but no need to have a go at me for having a little rant and expecting better of a main dealer not some backstreet garage.


I'm many things, but ignorant isn't one of them... :wave:

I'm not on a soap box, or having a go at you...you have your little rant (we all do) if you want...but stop expecting the world to look after you, or agree with you.

If you don't want people to voice something different to what you think, I suggest you stop posting on a public forum, where people have their own minds, and experiences to fall back on to help you out with...you have chosen to think that I am having a go at you because I disagree with your point of view...this is not the case, but you of course can think what you like...

I see your rant and I think you are wrong to blame the dealer, and I have explained this...I do not agree with all the "the dealer lied" rubbish...but I am not having a go at you...hence the many lines of support in my posts.... maybe you have overlooked them.... 

:thumb:


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## donnyboy (Oct 27, 2005)

Would this be classed as misrepresentation? He held back information in order to get you to enter the contract?

http://www.claim-advice.com/misrepresentation.html


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## jay_bmw (Jan 28, 2010)

i haven't overlooked the support and i thankyou for some very valid points raised on the subject.

i post reguarly and expect differences of opinion , i din't expect to come on here and for people to wipe my **** for me, but also i'm not the kind of person to kick off for no reason, there are a few things about the car i wasn't overly imprssed with, hell , people come on here and moan about some swirl marks in their paint and expect a new car! the car wasn't even valeted and had no fuel in, but i runed a blind eye! i thought i had a valid point being annoyed at the car being a learner car, if you'd have been in the dealer sat in those chairs with me you'd have seen the dealer made me feel a fool for even asking if it had been used for instruction, hence my lack of persuing it further.


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## Ads (Sep 23, 2006)

This happened to my mum with a Punto, she complained to the Dealer manager and recieved a 3 year warranty as compensation


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## Ninja59 (Feb 17, 2009)

honestly i agree with what cuey has said yes you asked the right question and got lied to BUT i severely doubt that the dealer will accept blame directly...as cuey has said the onus is on you not the dealer to check the history 

I mean i pushed mine before purchase to get the V5 and original order records out to prove a few bits of history on mine because of it being ex personnel brit forces.

Now in regards to you i sympathize with what has occurred, but i doubt you will honestly get far, if lucky you will get something but you will near enough get 0% chance of the dealer accepting blame i.e a good will gesture

Also if you do go down the route of going there a want to be taken seriously do not come across as angry and aggressive you will get no where. Be calm and to the point in regards to the problem makes life far easier for the dealer and no doubt will gain you more.


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## The Cueball (Feb 8, 2007)

jay_bmw said:


> the car wasn't even valeted
> 
> the dealer made me feel a fool for even asking if it had been used for instruction, hence my lack of persuing it further.


Well the first one I would be happy about! :lol:

The 2nd one is very wrong... and that should not happen, and I'm sure now that you won't let it happen again....

I think if you head down, calmly state that you want to exercise their 30 day return/exchange policy you should be OK...

Or, do you really want to keep the car, but just get a new clutch/warranty out of them?

:thumb:


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## Rust.Bucket (Feb 11, 2011)

If you ask someone (an 'expert' in that field) a question, then surely you expect the answer to be true (to an extent).
Personally, I wouldnt have thought to have got it in writing that 'this isn't an ex driving instructor car' as what else do you want in writing? The list of things you Don't want can go on and on with a car.
I'd always check the footwell on cars commonly used as instructor cars though.

What it comes down to is he bought a car described as one thing and sold as something else.
Yes it may be something trivial as 'not an instructor car' and maybe e should have done checks himself.
Regardless, he now has a car that could have clutch and other problems, and lower future resale value (I'd expect to pay less if I was to buy an ex instructor car).

It's all well and good saying 'should be lesson learned, move on live with it'
But in reality we would all use any ounce of power we have to have issues rectified. Our dumb/lying if you said you wouldn't.

He said he is happy with the car itself (which is more than what many disgruntled buyers come here to say etc) but is raising the issue with the dealer.
Which is what I think any one would do.

Put it another way: would you 'just live with' a car seat for a baby you bought thinking it was for for purpose, just to find it's been dropped or cracked at some point in it's life. Ok this is a more extreme example, but you get the point.

Yes we do live in a society of 'cut my leg on a roadworks cone, must claim ££££'s from council' but this is different.
This is being sold something that wasn't as described fully.

Yes, maybe the buyer should have done additional checks but the dealer made a statement that the buyer at the time seemed happy with.
If have still checked for any signs of dual controls though, just saying.


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## jay_bmw (Jan 28, 2010)

Thankyou very much for the above post, its exactly how i feel, im not one to take the **** about something thats not worth it, i'm just worried about resale value and clutch woes, oh well such is life i suppose! 

i'll phone the garage in a bit see what they say.

Thanks again 

Jamie


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## Rust.Bucket (Feb 11, 2011)

Oh and don't read my post as an argumentative one- it was more a reflection of both sides of the coin.
Maybe some level of naivety but we've all said or asked a genuine question and ended up being scoffed at/belittled.


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## Ninja59 (Feb 17, 2009)

You will be Fobbed off over the phone just say your unhappy about something with it and coming in


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## DampDog (Apr 16, 2011)

The Cueball said:


> Well the first one I would be happy about! :lol:
> 
> I think if you head down, calmly state that you want to exercise their 30 day return/exchange policy you should be OK...
> 
> ...


Calm and quietly is deffo the way.. My best mate is hot headed and took a faulty microwave back to Comet. And told the saleman to "stick it up his ar.se!!! He was escorted off the premises.. His Mrs rang up the following day to appologise and had it sorted in 5min...


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## Rust.Bucket (Feb 11, 2011)

Yeah I'd definitely go in instead.
On the phone it's not as 'personal' and so you may be pushed from person to person or given the general run around.

Going in may be annoying or mess up your day but it means you could get there undivided attention for as long as you need.

Who knows, you may walk in and they could be really helpful about it all (imagine that lol!)


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## The Cueball (Feb 8, 2007)

DampDog said:


> Calm and quietly is deffo the way.. My best mate is hot headed and took a faulty microwave back to Comet. And told the saleman to "stick it up his ar.se!!! He was escorted off the premises.. His Mrs rang up the following day to appologise and had it sorted in 5min...


Been there and done that too 

Although, sometimes it's just what you feel like! :lol:

I learned very quickly that getting all hot and bothered gets you no-where...and actually it gets you further then where you want to be! :wall:

@OP I would echo the going down in person too if you can....

:thumb:


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## Maggi200 (Aug 21, 2009)

from a detailers POV... what's the paint like? They're all stickered up aren't they? 

As for the fact it's ex bsm. Resale i doubt would be an issue with an owner between, niggles will have ben sorted. I would realistically go back and explain the issue you have with the car and get an extended warranty or clutch replacement which is totally reasonable considering it's past life. Whilst learner cars are mistreated as far as clutches are concerned. THey tend to not be driven hard so brakes, tyres, suspension etc should all sitll be better than average i would expect?


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## McClane (Dec 9, 2010)

I see someone mentioned the *Sale of Goods act *- SAD FART.

No, not you Cuey, it's an accronym.

*S*atisfactory quality,

*A*s

*D*escribed,

*F* it for purpose,

*a*nd last a

*R*easonable length of

*T*ime!

Obviously, it's not ideal that you didn't check, but as per Cueys "*you* need to take care of yourself (i.e not anyone else will do it)" mentality - you can/should now to everything within your reasonable power to ensure that you are satisfied. Not all the hardwork has to be done before hand (although I'd agree that's the best time for due diligence).

I'd go to them with the "as described" part. Yes, it is a 2nd hand car "as (that part was) described"... but if the rest of the descriptions didn't matter... all car ads would be a LOT shorter!

Good luck.

P.s. I see in my enthusiasm to join the fray that my post was a little belated. But yeah, i sort of agree with *Rust Bucket*. Although we all know *Cuey* has our interests at heart... even in his own special way :thumb:


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## DampDog (Apr 16, 2011)

I've been an instructor (i still hold my badge) the brakes get more hammer than you'd immagine. Remember controlled stop is part of the test, depending on how the pupils fall on the day you might do 10-15 in a day, so it's hard on brakes and suspension. (and the nerves..!!)

I've also so had hand brakes pulled on so hard it took 2 hands to release..


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## Bill58 (Jul 5, 2010)

Before phoning them contact Consumer Direct, they helped me out big time with a faulty suite.


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