# This petrol vs diesel cost I keep seeing.



## possul (Nov 14, 2008)

I keep reading in many posts that state unless your doing more than 20k a year it's not worth buying a diesel. 
Why is this?
Is this just for new cars?


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## alan hanson (May 21, 2008)

on newer cars especially if they have a dpf fitted this needs a good blast regularly so self clean, the theres the extra 1-2k a diesel costs plus services and fuel? thats what i have always understood whether its accurate or not?


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## johanr77 (Aug 4, 2011)

Basically petrol cars are becoming more fuel efficient and as diesels generally speaking cost more new and the fuel costs more per litre then you need to do more miles to make back the extra investment in the diesel engine over the petrol one.


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## slim_boy_fat (Jun 23, 2006)

Afaik, you have to cover that sort of mileage to recover the price differentials, both in fuel and the buying price of the vehicle [so, yes - on 'newish' cars].

Factor in the fact that in order to meet emission regs, modern diesels are much more complicated than their old counterparts - things like DPFs are costly to replace etc.


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## robertdon777 (Nov 3, 2005)

Personally I think it's lower than 20K even taking in to account things that 'could' go wrong with a diesel over the petrol model (especially now nearly all petrols are turbo'd)

But i still can't enjoy a diesel power plant as much as the petrol equivalent in the same car.


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

You have to factor in a lot of variables, so it's not as clear cut as saying 20k per year is the cut off. 

It does depend on the model, how and where you drive the car and things like depreciation. 

Diesel cars often cost more to service and DPFs are only expected to have a life of 70-80k. 

The average personal car owner only does 10k per year. With business users this becomes 12k overall. . 

At 10k per year with a average petrol car doing 35mpg and an average diesel doing 50mpg you'd save roughly £500 per year on fuel. 

The diesel car will cost more to buy, likely be more to service and I've always found that with a heavy and torquey diesel engine, tyres last nowhere near as long. 

Just taking cost into consideration, the gap isn't what people think it is. 

Then the majority of diesel cars are still poor to drive.


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## SteveTDCi (Feb 8, 2006)

For me people automatically assume because its a diesel i'm going to get 60mpg, well if you spend your life up and down the motorway then yes you might. I'm all for people saying something is cheaper but usually it isn't 

I don't order diesel cars for something that spends its life around town, a petrol will beat it and is cheaper to lease, it will also avoid DPF issues and clutches seem more durable. I guess it depends on how anal you are looking at the figures, if buying out right on short trips then yes by all means go for a petrol, covering lots of miles and leasing then diesel is your friend. 

It the same with buy a VW/BMW/Audi because they hold there money better ... no they don't they usually lose more, take my Mini as an example, assuming no discount was given then somebody paid 25k for it ... i got it used at 2 1 years old and paid a dealer 13.3k for it, a loss of 12k in 30 months. How is that good at RV, a Fiesta which is the same size would never have lost that amount. The simple fact is the more you spend the more you lose.


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## S63 (Jan 5, 2007)

I've just bought a diesel Clio just because its a better drive than the petrol.


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## DJ X-Ray (Sep 2, 2012)

Even though i do a lot of miles i don't like diesel motors and only buy petrol.
Even though it'd save me a bit of wedge i just don't like em never have


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## johanr77 (Aug 4, 2011)

Hold on didn't you read Kerr's post the majority of diesels are poor to drive. 

Clio must be in the minority


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

johanr77 said:


> Hold on didn't you read Kerr's post the majority of diesels are poor to drive.
> 
> Clio must be in the minority


What would you condiser a good diesel engine out of interest?

How many driver's cars spring to mind that are fitted with a diesel?

I know diesel drivers take offence when I give my opinion, but I keep hearing how good diesel engines are these days but all the recent common ones I've driven still suffer with the same diesel shortcomings.

Diesel cars serve their purpose when used in the right circumstances. Does a diesel engine make a car better to drive on a day to day basis or having a thrash? No chance.

Even when diesel was a fraction of the cost of petrol everyone did everything they could to avoid buying diesel. I've no idea where this swing has come from in recent years as most peoole buying diesel just don't need one.

Now people buy diesel focusing on economy and in gear torque. The in gear torque isn't as critical as it's made out(it isn't that often you overtake someone) and with more cars coming with auto gearboxes, it's even less vital as the auto box will make sure the petrol is producing the power.


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## SteveyG (Apr 1, 2007)

DMF failures are a real concern with Diesel engines. The higher torque at low revs puts serious stress on the flywheel springs.



S63 said:


> I've just bought a diesel Clio just because its a better drive than the petrol.


Hopefully you do enough miles to avoid any DPF problems. On another forum a few people who bought a Diesel for pottering around needed DPF replacements after only 6 months because the car never got the chance to do a proper regen.


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## alan hanson (May 21, 2008)

You ask most people who own a diesel what a dpf is and await the look on their face


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## bidderman1969 (Oct 20, 2006)

alan hanson said:


> You ask most people who own a diesel what a dpf is and await the look on their face


Yup, some of the other taxi drivers don't know what it is, and one found out when his mondeo went into limp mode, he said the garage put it at 4500 revs for 25 minutes…… not sure if that's accurate tbh though


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## PugIain (Jun 28, 2006)

My new 407 has the FAP system. I think as long as you understand it's requirements there should be no issue.


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## alan hanson (May 21, 2008)

exactly buy to your needs eating motor ways is what it does best going to the shop to get the paper on a sunday morning like i see people around me isnt


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

It is scary the amount of DPF failures I've seen. 

I'm surprised that there has not been a bigger deal made about it. 

Modern cars shouldn't be failing or have non serviceable parts with only a relatively short lifespan. 

To me DPFs should be classed as not fit for purpose given the issues they cause.


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

PugIain said:


> My new 407 has the FAP system. I think as long as you understand it's requirements there should be no issue.


The majority of people that buy cars have absolutely no interest or understanding of them.

They just want something to go from A to B and couldn't care less about the workings of it.


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## uruk hai (Apr 5, 2009)

As already said its not simply about how many miles you cover, it also comes down to personal circumstances. I cover six thousand miles a year and have saved money on fuel (compared to the equivalent petrol model), buying the diesel I have has made sense for me as I don't have the costs of servicing and maintainence that diesels can attract.


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## alan hanson (May 21, 2008)

uruk hai said:


> buying the diesel I have has made sense for me as I don't have the costs of servicing and maintainence that diesels can attract.


think im being thick but this confused me sorry


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## bidderman1969 (Oct 20, 2006)

As a taxi I'm even thinking of getting petrol next time


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## uruk hai (Apr 5, 2009)

alan hanson said:


> think im being thick but this confused me sorry


I don't spend a fraction of the cost that some people spend on parts and labour as my mate's a mechanic and has worked on among other cars diesel Focus' for as long as they've been made. There's practically nothing that can go wrong or be broken on a Focus that he hasn't diagnosed, repaired or replaced so when it comes to working on mine he could probably do it with his eyes closed !

That's what I meant when I said its also about personal circumstances.


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## Paintmaster1982 (Oct 23, 2007)

I do roughly 20k a year in my 406 hdi. It does mid 50 mpg most of the time. I service it myself which isn't expensive. I would be out of a pocket with a same sized petrol car. Everyone's situations are different. And this post isn't about how a diesel and petrols drive it's about the costs. Everyone is different and to say one is better than the other is a pointless discussion. I borrowed my dads ford mondeo 2.0 16v petrol for my daily commute of 50 miles and even driving it steady I couldn't get past 36mpg. It also felt slow until i got it into the higher rev range but then the mpg went down further. I think diesels have more usable power compared to non turbo petrols but thats another discussion.


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## James Bagguley (Jul 13, 2013)

Excuse my ignorance, but does a diesel simply require a good thrashing to clear the DPF?

A work mate of mine stated, his father refused to make short journeys in his petrol Mazda, due to the possible breakdown of the catalytic converter through operation outside its preferred temperature 

That was many moons ago, i suppose things have moved on with cat technology, maybe the same will be true for DPF's, one day.


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## johanr77 (Aug 4, 2011)

alan hanson said:


> You ask most people who own a diesel what a dpf is and await the look on their face


You reckon your meant to give them a good blast which kind of makes me think you don't understand them too well yourself.


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## Paintmaster1982 (Oct 23, 2007)

James Bagguley said:


> Excuse my ignorance, but does a diesel simply require a good thrashing to clear the DPF?
> 
> A work mate of mine stated, his father refused to make short journeys in his petrol Mazda, due to the possible breakdown of the catalytic converter through operation outside its preferred temperature
> 
> That was many moons ago, i suppose things have moved on with cat technology, maybe the same will be true for DPF's, one day.


Yeah every now and again they need to burn the crap out of it or Regen i think. Or something like that.

The engine will run hotter for a short time and to do this you need to use higher revs for a bit and then it will return back to normal.

Bit of a pain in my eyes but as long as know when to do it then there shouldn't be an issue.


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

James Bagguley said:


> Excuse my ignorance, but does a diesel simply require a good thrashing to clear the DPF?
> 
> A work mate of mine stated, his father refused to make short journeys in his petrol Mazda, due to the possible breakdown of the catalytic converter through operation outside its preferred temperature
> 
> That was many moons ago, i suppose things have moved on with cat technology, maybe the same will be true for DPF's, one day.


They clear once up to temperature for and driving at a steady speed for a while.

Diesels can take quite a while to get up to temperature and some of the bigger diesel engines are so underworked they don't get warm enough to clear at motorway speeds.

Here is a bit from the AA.

http://www.theaa.com/motoring_advice/fuels-and-environment/diesel-particulate-filters.html


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## James Bagguley (Jul 13, 2013)

Thanks bud :thumb: just wondered!


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## S63 (Jan 5, 2007)

SteveyG said:


> Hopefully you do enough miles to avoid any DPF problems. On another forum a few people who bought a Diesel for pottering around needed DPF replacements after only 6 months because the car never got the chance to do a proper regen.


I don't do enough miles, that was my original point about diesel v petrol costs, some prefer a diesel engine regardless of the financial aspect.

I'm very aware of DPF problems, seen a few come into the dealerships I work for. I give the car a 40 minute run on the motorway each month which should be enough to keep the filter in good order.


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## SteveTDCi (Feb 8, 2006)

alan hanson said:


> You ask most people who own a diesel what a dpf is and await the look on their face


It's the fact they don't realise it's a service part. It's too early to tell how vw's fare long term but I know our 2008/9 focus tdci's where truly awful. They would hit68k and then dpf problems would hit them, that's if turbo or injector issues don't get them first.

For me diesels have been pushed to far, to quickly. Some of the most environmentally friendly cars are now petrol. Diesel has had it's day in small cars, they are purchased by fleets because of how the tax system is biased in there favour, and yes I'm guilty of buying them for that reason. However most of our leet is pool cars so the smaller stuff is now petrol. The next big thing is small capacity petrols.

Diesel, well for me any 4 cylinder is rattly and noisy, I don't care what people say, even the later mk7 golf 1.6 tdi is gruff and rattly, in fact the best thing they fit to the modern diesel is start stop. I hated my a3 for many things and one of the things I noticed when going to the Leon was the smoothness and no vibration through the pedals.

There might be some good engines out there but or me they need a minimum of 6 cylinders, I've driven the Audi bi turbo diesel and it was a great engine, almost petrol like and very quick. However the s7 (bit unfair I know) I drove before it proves that despite a great diesel that lack of drama, the emotional contact is missing with a diesel. Yes diesels are quick on the motorway but nothing beats dropping it down 2 years and finding the redline, and if your a diesel driver reading this the redline doesn't stop at 4500, if you keep your foot in you should get somewhere near 7000rpm, oh hang on they don't fit rev counters that high in diesels. Even a 0.9 2 cylinder fiat engine is more fun than the average diesel, and I'll include the so called best 4 cylinder diesel in that, the 320d. My god that was rattly, in fact bmw should be fined, they make stonking 6 cylinders (and the 4 pot in the mini is torquey and tuneful) if you ever get chance, try a m3 csl.


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

Steve, you're sounding like me.


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## SteveTDCi (Feb 8, 2006)

Ha ha, there's a time and a place for a diesel, I believe it's as a replacement for a horse and cart in the fields


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## possul (Nov 14, 2008)

Thanks for the info guys. Cleared it up for me!
I wouldn't be going for a new car id be looking at 2008 ish, either a focus, Peugeot or possibly Astra. but sadly not in a posistion to afford one. Other priorities atm.
I will be more swayed to engines im familiar with for ease or serving and cost ( do it all myself)
Im not put off by dpf either as ive worked with plenty and can sort them myself.
diesel for my next car when i get round to it though, one day.


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## 4937Liam (Feb 4, 2010)

Interesting hearing about the diesel bashing. i drive and commute to work everyday in a mk1 leon pd150 - without a doubt the best car ive ever owned. remapped and a few other tweeks have seen just under 200bhp. keeps up with and suprises many petrol vehicles. when i drive sensibly 55mpg + can easily be achieved.

Liam.


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## VW Golf-Fan (Aug 3, 2010)

I have always had Petrol cars & don't plan to change that.

I just don't do enough miles to warrant buying a Diesel, plus I've never really been a fan of Diesel cars.


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## Dannbodge (Sep 26, 2010)

I had a Diesel because I fancied one. I then graduated and got a job 5 miles away so it wouldn't even get warm and I was down to 35mpg.
So changed it for a petrol instead and don't regret it at all.

As soon as I have to travel more than 20miles for a commute on a motorway I would get a diesel.


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## bidderman1969 (Oct 20, 2006)

Why are diesels so rattly???


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## possul (Nov 14, 2008)

More diesel knock I find with the smaller engined diesels.
Worst ive heard is the 1.6 peugeot engine, if its had injector seals its always worse afterwards. even the VW 1.6 isn't that quiet
Better quality fuel will help. Keeping the combustion chamber as clean as possible is the best way to prevent it but not chance really with EGR nowadays


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## LeeH (Jan 29, 2006)

possul said:


> More diesel knock I find with the smaller engined diesels.
> Worst ive heard is the 1.6 peugeot engine, if its had injector seals its always worse afterwards. even the VW 1.6 isn't that quiet
> Better quality fuel will help. Keeping the combustion chamber as clean as possible is the best way to prevent it but not chance really with EGR nowadays


I mix 250ml of 2 stroke in every tank. It replaces the lubricant that has been taken from the low sulphur fuels. You can actually here the difference.

http://www.brick-yard.co.uk/forum/adding-2-stroke-oil-to-diesel-tank-read-this_topic37935.html


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## zsdom (Aug 30, 2011)

4937Liam said:


> Interesting hearing about the diesel bashing. i drive and commute to work everyday in a mk1 leon pd150 - without a doubt the best car ive ever owned. remapped and a few other tweeks have seen just under 200bhp. keeps up with and suprises many petrol vehicles. when i drive sensibly 55mpg + can easily be achieved.
> 
> Liam.


Just a comparison with this, a friend of mine has the new Fiesta ST with the mountune 215 kit and:


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## Cookies (Dec 10, 2008)

As far as I see it the diesel 'cost' thing is where someone looking to buy a car actually pays the £1500 ish dealers charge more for it over and above a petrol car they were considering.

I buy cars usually with a pre-determined budget in mind, so I don't technically pay more for a diesel car in the first place. I would usually find a number of cars within budget and try to get the best mix of value, age, quality and economy that i can within budget. Sadly with the number of miles i do each year (currently 20k) and the rising price of fuel (and everything else for that matter), fuel economy is a major consideration - so for me it has been, and probably will be diesel for the foreseeable future.

On a related note I love the torque of the diesels - I went through a stage, when i was a fair bit younger, when i loved nothing more than firing the car around some of the country roads around home. I'm now more agey, have a wee son and i just find that for 99% of my driving the torque of the diesel provides for a much more satisfying and relaxing drive. Personal opinion of course. But i'd still love an RS4... :thumb:

Cheers

Cooks


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## possul (Nov 14, 2008)

zsdom said:


> Just a comparison with this, a friend of mine has the new Fiesta ST with the mountune 215 kit and:


Is that genuine or reset at the top of a hill and coast back down!

What mix of driving?

If I were to buy a new car (I never will) I would probably go for a petrol as I know they can be good fuel when driven conservatively


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## 4937Liam (Feb 4, 2010)

I can sit at 80mph consistantly and achieve the figures ive mentioned. the fiesta st will not achieve that. probably more fun though!


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## Ross (Apr 25, 2007)

Diesel's cost more than petrol cars,people always seem to forget that.


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## possul (Nov 14, 2008)

Ross said:


> Diesel's cost more than petrol cars,people always seem to forget that.


I'd be buying used, probably private so no such a big deal for me


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

possul said:


> I'd be buying used, probably private so no such a big deal for me


It's not as quite clear cut as that.

You might find that a new petrol car is £1500 less than the diesel equivalent. Two or three years down the line you might actually find the petrol has depreciated quicker and makes an even better secondhand buy.


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## possul (Nov 14, 2008)

Kerr said:


> It's not as quite clear cut as that.
> 
> You might find that a new petrol car is £1500 less than the diesel equivalent. Two or three years down the line you might actually find the petrol has depreciated quicker and makes an even better secondhand buy.


id own the car for at least three years so surely make the extra spent back with fuel saving costs.
Getting a diesel would half my fuel bill at the moment I think.

Motorbike is on the cards now for the commute (90 mpg)


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## Cookies (Dec 10, 2008)

Kerr said:


> It's not as quite clear cut as that.
> 
> You might find that a new petrol car is £1500 less than the diesel equivalent. Two or three years down the line you might actually find the petrol has depreciated quicker and makes an even better secondhand buy.


Bit of a double edged sword tgis subject isnt it?

On one hand the petrol car costs less but depreciates more.

On the other, the diesel costs more but will be worth more when you come to sell it.

In the middle the diesel will be easier to run and cheaper to tax although will be dearer to service....

Derv for me though.

Cooks.


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## alan hanson (May 21, 2008)

Cookies said:


> easier to run


As in? dont have to fill up so many times? Id say running a diesel is more of a pain, DPF, EGR, swirl rods etc all common faults on diesels, this isnt me saying petrol cars dont have issues as we all know they have, but going on friends, family and what i read diesels seem to kick off alot more?

like ya say though works both ways and personal preference


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## SteveTDCi (Feb 8, 2006)

A petrol car won't depreciate anymore, servicing between the two is very similar and lets be honest 5p a litre isn't going to make much difference unless you commute to the moon.

If looking at it financially then the type of trips you cover for 90 % of the time is what you should base the car on, it's pointless buying a diesel because you cover 300 miles once a month on a long run but the rest of your trips are a 2 mile trip to work.

If you really want to save money, buy a 306hdi and run it until it breaks. The more you spend on a car the more you lose. If however you want new then throw £1000 at skoda and pay £99 per month and get a brand new citygo with 3 years of worry free motoring


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

Cookies said:


> Bit of a double edged sword tgis subject isnt it?
> 
> On one hand the petrol car costs less but depreciates more.
> 
> ...


It's not quite as clear cut as that either.

All cars depreciate in different ways.

We've done the BMW 335i v 335d to death on the BMW forums.

The 335d is slightly more to buy new. It was upto about year 3 or 4 the gap between them widened in favour of the diesel. So if you bought new the d could work out better value in the short term.

After year 4 the gap actually got closer and closer.

The 335d is more to insure, more to service, harder on tyres and also more expensive for extended BMW warranties.

That would make it more effective to buy a used 335i as the depreciation wouldn't be as bad as the 335d later.

There is so many variables that there isn't a straight answer to the question.

Petrol cars are getting cheaper for road tax too. I think that new A45AMG and the new Audi S3/Golf R is lowish on road tax. Certainly for power levels.

The best thing to do is buy a car you really would be happy driving and can afford within your budget.

I don't see the point of buying something you don't really want for a lot of money, when for just a fraction more (sometimes less) you can.

I'm saying that assuming people have an interest in cars and driving. Most couldn't care less.


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## CoOkIeMoNsTeR (Mar 6, 2011)

For the last 5 years my mrs and I have had one petrol and one diesel car, the diesel is s Freelander 2.0 Td4, the BMW M47 engine and it rattles away to itself under the bonnet and returns about 32 mpg. The petrol alternative in a Freelander is either the Rover Kettle series 1.8 or the 2.5 KV6. Both return about 15-20 mpg in similar circumstances and you don't see so many of those with nearly 160k on them. Being a 2003 car, it has no dpf and the egr valve has never been an issue. It's had a fuel pump and 1 injector over the last 5 years and nearly 75k miles with us.

I've always driven petrols, but my car history has involved V8s, V12s and for the last 7 years, a flat six Porsche and now also a supercharged 4 pot Mercedes. Diesel options were not available in these cars.

I've got a Vectra too, just to sell on, a 58 plate 1.9 CDTi 150 SRi estate auto with 148k otc, and it drives spot on, but the service history :doublesho dpf has been drilled, and that's just it really, you can remove them from modern diesels and it costs about £600 to do it right, but why? 

Regarding S63 and the diesel clio. I can understand that one, the teeny 0.9 petrol and ancient 1.2 must feel totally pedestrian in comparison to a 1.5 turbo diesel, and having owned a Megane with a 1.5 dCi in the past, it pulls OK for it's size.

The engine I always see people having a go about is the 1.6 TDCi/HDi DV6 engine that powers almost all modern cars. I know it has it's faults, but until they took half the valves away, it was a cracking engine in terms of performance and economy and I've driven loads with galactic mileages and they are all pretty smooth and quiet for a diesel and I've worked on them too and not found anything complicated to fix that often goes on them 

The equivalent 1.6 petrol is less flexible in comparison, but I think Steve is right, modern turbo petrols are the way foreword, but the jury is out on their longevity. BMW have gone backwards in my estimation recently, the new gen of 4 cyl diesels are so unrefined, it's like having a 300k VAG 1.9 under the bonnet or something from a farmyard. A BMW is not a BMW unless it has 6 cylinders and that is not up for debate 

So I spose it depends on your needs and wants, but I personally don't think there is anything better than sitting on the motorway at 70 on the cruise behind the wheel of a mahooosive petrol with 8 or more cylinders and being able to whisper at your passenger before letting it rip in every tunnel on your route :thumb: I'd rather a 20 year old modern classic and save the money for fuel then have a modern car and waste it in depreciation. It's why I'm not considering selling the Freelander and the Porsche is easily still worth what I paid 7 years ago.


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## SteveTDCi (Feb 8, 2006)

Here's another when it comes to more expensive, if you have it on finance the apr/interest on a 30k loan is going to be less than a 35k loan 

Even the freelander boys reckon the l series diesel is better than the td4. The k series is actually a good engine if it runs


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## CoOkIeMoNsTeR (Mar 6, 2011)

Yeah the L series was good, but you can't get the ES Premium spec, and ultimately, it's about the complete package IMO, and the Td4 is more capable as an all rounder with the best power/torque curves for off roading and on the motorway too. I find the K-series a great engine, but underpowered in a Freelander. It's swings and roundabouts but the cost on paper depends from car to car, but anyone who buys a car purely on figures wants their head looking at. People who borrow 30k to finance a car at a monthly rate and then say I bought this one cos it does 60mpg and the other one doesn't?!? My Porsche is a classic, cost £8700, is probably still worth that, does about 18mpg and I do 10k miles a year in it. What d'ya think costs less to run as a monthly figure? It's probably closer than you think.

Point is, you buy what you want, figures are just figures and mostly lies today, buy a car with your heart, figures are for company cars!


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## Cookies (Dec 10, 2008)

CoOkIeMoNsTeR said:


> A BMW is not a BMW unless it has 6 cylinders and that is not up for debate
> 
> So I spose it depends on your needs and wants, but I personally don't think there is anything better than sitting on the motorway at 70 on the cruise behind the wheel of a mahooosive petrol with 8 or more cylinders and being able to whisper at your passenger before letting it rip in every tunnel on your route :thumb: I'd rather a 20 year old modern classic and save the money for fuel then have a modern car and waste it in depreciation. It's why I'm not considering selling the Freelander and the Porsche is easily still worth what I paid 7 years ago.


Now there's a convincing argument if i ever heard one! And from a family member too lol :thumb:

Cooks


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