# Winter tyres.



## Cookies (Dec 10, 2008)

Hey all. Woke up yesterday morning to this.



















As our house is on a fairly substantial hill, we could hear the usual revving and spinning of tyres as folk tried (and failed) to get up the hill and out towards the main road.

Cars were sitting spinning outside our house and literally going nowhere.

My wife left about an hour before me and drove straight up the hill, without any bother at all. Didn't even spin the wheels. She has Petlas Snowmaster on her car.

While having brekky I sat and watched numerous cars failing in their attempts to get out of our park. A number of neighbours tried, failed and were chatting when my son and I were leaving. They told me not to bother trying to leave as the hill was treacherous. We got into the car and drove straight out, without so much as a flicker from the traction control light. I have Sunitrac Focus Win and they are outstanding. I actually passed a number of struggling 4x4s on my way out.

Just wondering if anyone else had any luck with winter tyres over the past few days?

Cheers

Cooks


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## Ross (Apr 25, 2007)

Wish we had snow like that up here,The legacy has 4 Yokohama W drives on which in the few days of snow we have had were very impressive.


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## ardandy (Aug 18, 2006)

For the 2 days a year I haven't bothered. Seems a false economy really.

(Yes I know below 7c they're better etc)

Rather have a day off in bed cause I can't get into work!


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## Kash-Jnr (Mar 24, 2013)

I had winter tyres on last year (if some remember my thread). Only worthwhile if you do a silly amount of miles and the snow is esp. bad.


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## snowy1 (Jan 3, 2014)

I've had 4x4 's for the last 5+ years and get winter tyres regardless, seen many RR drivers struggling as they assume a 4x4 on summer tyres is bombproof! .. I normally always buy Nokian for my Mitsubishi, as they seem to be topping the test lists recently.


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## dillinja999 (Aug 26, 2013)

most of it is people not knowing how to drive in the snow, i mean how many people do you see revving the nuts off their car and it going nowhere lol or driving slowly to a hill then revving nuts off it when they hit the slope lol doughnuts


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

I went out of my way to find snow today to try mine out. The snow wasn't keep enough to see how good they are. 

Still not seen any snow on my travels other than going into it today. Even then it was just a little. 

I'm still not buying this 7° cut off point. My Goodyear F1 AS2s had more grip than the Vredestein winter tyres at any temperature I've encountered so far. 

If there isn't substantial snow for a lengthy period of time, I'll conclude they are a bit of a waste of money for me.


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## spursfan (Aug 4, 2009)

Okay, seems that we have the usual remarks about how good their normal all year tyres are in the snow and how it's down to their superior driving skills etc etc, and that it's a waste of time as well as expense buying the etc...
I wonder how many of the guys that are saying winters are pointless have actually used them?
I don't want to get into any slagging arguments as I have used them these last 3 years, and 3 years back they proved that there really is no tyre that can match them in the snow. passing 4x4 X5 with their summer tyres on spinning nowhere, going up the hills around High Wycombe.
Now this argument comes up every year, the driving gods saying they can use slick tyres and still get up hills with 12 inches of snow, it's down to clutch control etc:wall:
Just take a look at some of these tyres on their makers website, they spend millions to make these tyres because they actually work.
My missus would certainly have missed 2 chemotherapy sessions if we had not had the Ultragip 8's on at the time, that is when I realised their worth.
Wait for the DG's:lol:


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## ardandy (Aug 18, 2006)

Not saying they're are pointless but they're not cost effective given the amount of snow we get.

2 days of disruption in the last 3 years inc this one so far.

Given the cost of them, changing them over and storage I'd rather just not go out.

Cost ratio = poor.
Effectiveness = good


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## James Bagguley (Jul 13, 2013)

From recent experience trying to preserve polished lip wheels in even a mild winter i have vowed to get winter wheels for next year.

Don't think it would make sense to wrap them in summer tyres really, maybe a bit of an extravagance to some, but keeping the summer wheels out of the crud, and being well equipped for whatever may occur seems like a sensible move to me.

And yes, it was a dumb move keeping the current wheels on, but the winters budget went on more pressing essentials.


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## spursfan (Aug 4, 2009)

ardandy said:


> Not saying they're are pointless but they're not cost effective given the amount of snow we get.
> 
> 2 days of disruption in the last 3 years inc this one so far.
> 
> ...


One skid is all it takes to cover the cost, let's hope it never happens eh!!


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## MDC250 (Jan 4, 2014)

Picked up a set of winter tyres with practically full tread on genuine OEM alloys for less than the cost of the tyres new. No brainer...if you have the space to store buy some


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## empsburna (Apr 5, 2006)

spursfan said:


> One skid is all it takes to cover the cost, let's hope it never happens eh!!


He will have a job on if he is watching other people out of the window.


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## RisingPower (Sep 21, 2007)

spursfan said:


> One skid is all it takes to cover the cost, let's hope it never happens eh!!


You can't skid on winter tyres?


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## snowy1 (Jan 3, 2014)

I've had winters tyres which have lasted x5 seasons, so say 20 months doing on average 1500 miles a month, so I don't think it's that expensive really...


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## empsburna (Apr 5, 2006)

snowy1 said:


> I've had winters tyres which have lasted x5 seasons, so say 20 months doing on average 1500 miles a month, so I don't think it's that expensive really...


That isn't bad at all.


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## spursfan (Aug 4, 2009)

RisingPower said:


> You can't skid on winter tyres?


dunno, you tell me? DG by any chance??


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## RisingPower (Sep 21, 2007)

spursfan said:


> dunno, you tell me? DG by any chance??


I'd be pretty sure you can skid on any tyres, the only problem is getting moving in the first place.

If I couldn't get moving on more than a few days a year and couldn't wfh on those days, maybe they would make sense.


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## Cookies (Dec 10, 2008)

The Petlas were £70 for two from gumtree 2 years ago. I bought two new @ £60 each. So £190 all in. 

For the exeo the Sunitrac were £130 for the full set, again off gumtree. Had just travelled 1000 miles and the guy sold his car so they didn't fit any more. 

I was genuinely impressed yesterday guys and I Def wouldn't have got our cars out without them. 

Cooks


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## Caledoniandream (Oct 9, 2009)

The big reason that they are required by law in most of North Europe including Germany, Austria, Switzerland, Poland etc. is because they work, and they work very well.
Have had winter tyres for the last 25 years on both cars. 
As my summer tyres last twice as long the costs are not that big. 

And they are not only for driving away, but their braking distance is much shorter in sleet and snow.

Highly recommended, and the argument that if it snows I stay home, is not really valid as snow doesn't always fall before you go to work, even in Britain it falls sometimes when you are at work.


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## Cookies (Dec 10, 2008)

Oh and for the months the winters are on the car, my summer tyres aren't being used - effectively making them last longer. 

Cooks


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## James Bagguley (Jul 13, 2013)

Also some people can't afford to stay home (mini rant here) any absence at our place results in not only loss of earnings, but being put on a random rota, and loss of booked holidays etc.

Smelly.

Running on different sets does seem to work out cost effective over time due to the reduction of wear on each.


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## RisingPower (Sep 21, 2007)

James Bagguley said:


> Also some people can't afford to stay home (mini rant here) any absence at our place results in not only loss of earnings, but being put on a random rota, and loss of booked holidays etc.
> 
> Smelly.
> 
> Running on different sets does seem to work out cost effective over time due to the reduction of wear on each.


This is the thing though, clearance on the zed is also an issue if it snows and probably in serious snow for most cars. You could put whatever tyres you like on and unless you wanted to do snow ploughing 

Take dave kg for example. I'd be mighty surprised if when it really snowed deep you'd be able to go to his house on most cars even with winter tyres.

At 200ish for all 4 corners though it's not exactly expensive to have a set.


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## spursfan (Aug 4, 2009)

RisingPower said:


> This is the thing though, clearance on the zed is also an issue if it snows and probably in serious snow for most cars. You could put whatever tyres you like on and unless you wanted to do snow ploughing
> 
> Take dave kg for example. I'd be mighty surprised if when it really snowed deep you'd be able to go to his house on most cars even with winter tyres.
> 
> At 200ish for all 4 corners though it's not exactly expensive to have a set.


another problem you have is all the HP!! ,mean machine in the dry, mad in the snow I would say.:thumb:


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## RisingPower (Sep 21, 2007)

spursfan said:


> another problem you have is all the HP!! ,mean machine in the dry, mad in the snow I would say.:thumb:


Don't have the space. Would be nice to. But getting the space is something i'd prioritise, not more than 1200 on tyres which won't ever be really used and wouldn't even help in most conditions.


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## Ro22 (Aug 14, 2014)

I've got a Discovery 2 and run that with Cooper winter tyres, never looked back. Same with the GTTDI Golf I had, so it's a yes from this corner, I certainly run them and now know the benefits.


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## Bill58 (Jul 5, 2010)

It's been two years since I've experienced the full benefit of winter tyres but already this year I've manage to get to my house without any problem when neighbours have had to leave their cars a couple of hundred yards away. This morning I got a call from my daughter to say she couldn't get her car up the hill which is round the corner from her house. When I got there, I came across two Golfs and an Astra stuck on the hill. With the winter tyres I managed to get to her house and get her to her work without any problems.


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## Nanoman (Jan 17, 2009)

I use vredestein wintrac extreme on the x-trail all year round. In summer they handle as well as summer tyres so there's no downside. In winter they handle a shedload better than summer tyres so there's a massive advantage.

People saying they make no/little difference are talking nonsense. It's simple physics and chemistry. Chemistry to get the compounds right and physics for the grip/traction.

If you're driving on wet/cold roads (no ice or snow) and a kid/dog/car comes out in front of you then the guy with winter tyres CAN avoid an accident that the guy on summer tyres CAN'T.

People talking about it being expensive need to check their sums. I reckon you could get a spare set of wheels and cheap winter tyres for the same price as decent summer tyres. Cheap winters will handle better than expensive summers.

This is one of the best tests to show the difference on snowy hills but it doesn't show the difference on a normal road in normal cold (dry or wet) conditions without snow.


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## Dannbodge (Sep 26, 2010)

I got winters mainly for the wheels as I have polished lips on my summer wheels and don't want the salt killing them.

Winter tyres on my winter alloys just made sense to me.


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## ardandy (Aug 18, 2006)

snowy1 said:


> I've had winters tyres which have lasted x5 seasons, so say 20 months doing on average 1500 miles a month, so I don't think it's that expensive really...


I hardly ever have a car for more than 2 years so wouldn't work for me.


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## ardandy (Aug 18, 2006)

spursfan said:


> One skid is all it takes to cover the cost, let's hope it never happens eh!!


On that logic then why doesn't everyone spend £200+ on an in car CCTV.

Only takes 1 accident to prove it wasn't your fault to pay for itself etc ect.

Might as well get a capable offroader as a landy with snow tyres is way better than a fiesta with snow tyres, could save my life one day!

Where does it end.


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## RisingPower (Sep 21, 2007)

Nanoman said:


> I use vredestein wintrac extreme on the x-trail all year round. In summer they handle as well as summer tyres so there's no downside. In winter they handle a shedload better than summer tyres so there's a massive advantage.
> 
> People saying they make no/little difference are talking nonsense. It's simple physics and chemistry. Chemistry to get the compounds right and physics for the grip/traction.
> 
> ...


I assure you, I don't need to check my sums, it's simple fact.


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

There is an argument of the cost balancing out. You use one set of tyres for half the year and the other the rest.

I opted for Vredestein tyres as I was just curious how much difference they would make to the BMW, but didn't want to shell out huge amounts on premium tyres just to see. She in panic bought budget winters for the MX5 last year and they were rubbish. Both of us noticed the car was a bit nervous and devoid of grip even when the roads were dry. So I wasn't prepared to buy budgets, but not the high end tyres for trial.

A lot of guys rate the Vredestein tyres, but I'm not overly convinced of their summer efforts. I'm still hoping for loads of snow to change my mind on the winter ones. 

My tyres were just over £600 from the cheapest online retailer, and I have to factor in another £60 twice a year to change them over and back. I did think about going for 17" wheels and tyres, but decided just the tyres.

The jury is out for me. I think I really need proper snow to make me feel I've benefited from them. 

We've been exceptionally lucky with the winters in recent years. I thought this year it just couldn't continue.


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## snowy1 (Jan 3, 2014)

RisingPower said:


> I assure you, I don't need to check my sums, it's simple fact.


Yeh, I just laid out £1k on x4 winter tyres for the Mitsubishi... so I get peoples point of view if they've more pressing matters to spend their money on, as winter tyres are great, but not necessarily essential for the UK.


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## Captain Duff (Sep 27, 2013)

You still come across the myth that winter tyres are only good for snow, and as it doesn't snow that often in much of the UK... Well yes, they are good in snow, but I was actually converted to winters nearly a decade ago when picking up a friend in an ungritted side street with a bit of an incline (but not a huge one) one evening. There had been a few days of cold damp weather (like now, actually) and I was caught by some black ice. End result was that I slid down to the end of the road and then onto a busy main raod at the bottom where a startled taxi driver stopped within inches as I slid past (luckily that road was gritted). Nearly the end of the car, nearly the end of me (and my passenger), and all because I thought summer tyres with plenty of grip were good enough.

Anyway, I had some Dunloip 4D's for my last car (Octy vRS) that were fantastic, and now have some Yoko w-drives for my GT86 (and with tail happy RWD it would be extra stupid not to). And while I have a garage to store them for the rest of the year (and a cheap trolly jack to change them myself), more and more garages and dealers are now doing cheap or free storage deals so lack of storage space isn't really an excuse anymore, but for me it just comes down to the simple question of how much you value your life...


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## Jag 63 (Nov 21, 2014)

RisingPower said:


> You can't skid on winter tyres?


Not strictly true last week we had some black ice on our road, going down it to a T- junction all my wheels must have locked up as if it hadn't been for the abs system I Would have gone straight out across the road into a lamp post. I was only doing 25mph due to the conditions, I have on Hankook Icebear winter tyres. Even after this will always use them give better grip and braking in the cold and wet there not just for snow.


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## Cookies (Dec 10, 2008)

I have an extra set of alloys for each car too, so I can do the change over in the driveway.Extra outlay at the outset but slowly recovering the cost every time I change them myself. 

I first fitted winter tyres (Pirelli Sottozero) to my Passat 4 years ago just before the bad winter. Unlike most of my neighbours, we were able to go out shopping and drive back to the house without any bother. The only time I had any issue whatsoever was when I tried reversing up the driveway - did a few spins but still managed to get up unscathed. 

For me I'll always fit them to our cars from here on in. If there is more snow, I'll take a video. 

Cooks


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## possul (Nov 14, 2008)

This is the same story as last year. 
Im a driving god and used clutch control and slower speeds to compensate for the snow, but thats not good enough is it. For the whole two to four days the main roads were bad, any road at 30mph or above was clear after two days, after one week all the roads were clear, except works car park which makes for good handbrake turns on my summer tyres!
Now what I dont understand is people going out to find snow to try out winter tyres, that in my eyes is more irresponsible, if there is no reason to go out then dont go out, period. Why risk and accident, explain that to the police when you have a smash, sorry my policeman, I Wanted to try out my winter tyres.

On a side note I understand people need then, yet I dont preach saying there pointless to you, yet (some) winter tyre users feel the need to preach to us summer users that were saying were superior drivers etc etc. 
Regardless of winter tyres or not, drive to the road conditions, if your skidding or the handling os off, reduce your speed to stay in control of the vehicle, which can be done (in my area) which imo doesnt justify buying winter tyres for so far this season one week (again in my area)

Dave Kg, yes id buy winter tyres, my part of nottingham, not a chance


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## Cookies (Dec 10, 2008)

Guys.

Sorry. I didn't mean to start any kind of a recurring argument. I found the tyres to be of great benefit to me and my family, not only this year but during previous winters too. I had hoped to have a chat about when others using winter tyres had found them to be of benefit.

Anyway as my grandfather used to say, "the more you say the less, the better."

Cooks


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

Cookies said:


> Guys.
> 
> Sorry. I didn't mean to start any kind of a recurring argument. I found the tyres to be of great benefit to me and my family, not only this year but during previous winters too. I had hoped to have a chat about when others using winter tyres had found them to be of benefit.
> 
> ...


It wouldn't be DW if there wasn't a reoccurring argument going on. :lol:

They stir debate for numerous reasons. I'm using them for the first year on own car, and still need to reserve my final judgement until the winter has gone.

I'm sure once deep in snow I'll be thinking it was the right decision. I've just not had the snow yet.

Not many folk have posted up winter pictures yet. It does look like another easy winter for us.

I'm not touching wood as I need snow...................


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## ardandy (Aug 18, 2006)

Also depends on the car.

The 330i I had couldn't take steelies as the calipers were too big. 
Cue £1000 for some spare alloys and tyres.

If you keep a car years it might make more sense. I don't. 2 years is my average as I like different cars!


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## James Bagguley (Jul 13, 2013)

Sorry Cooks, i guess we do love a bit of debate, don't think you should be apologising though.

All makes for good reading :thumb:


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## Cookies (Dec 10, 2008)

No apology necessary chum. Respectful debate is a good thing - especially when you're on my side lol. 

Cooks.


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## Ross (Apr 25, 2007)

Summer tyres on my Subaru was Ok for going forward but braking and steering was pretty dodgy,I have two sets of alloys so it's no problem really to swap them over but with the Yokohama W drives it's like night and day the overall performance and handling.Absolutely planted it's like the snow is not there.


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## James Bagguley (Jul 13, 2013)

Cookies said:


> No apology necessary chum. Respectful debate is a good thing - especially when you're on my side lol.
> 
> Cooks.


 Hehe! Got to credit you with the idea of custom steelies, reckon some of those bad boys will be good looking winters.

Maybe a square setup though, no front biased stagger


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## Dave KG (Feb 23, 2006)

Third year using winter tyres for me now, and I wouldn't be without them on my car, 4x4 or not. They make complete sense for me, I cannot afford to sit in the house every day there's more than a few inches of snow on the ground, my school opens in nearly all conditions in winter and I owe it to the kids I teach to get into work. I get several days, weeks rather, of wintry conditions where I live, the road I commute to work on goes over a moor over 1000 feet up and inland so you can imagine that when the cities see an inch or so, I see more like a foot or so! 

So far, I've always been able to get around in my Subarus (Forester and Outback) and a big part of this I put down to the correct choice of rubber - currently Nokian WR-3. This includes hard frosts with various "types" of ice, pack ice from snow fall, fresh snow fall well over a foot deep where the car has had to plough its way through... having 4x4 and useless tyres just sees you with four wheel scrabbling for grip rather than two, and the difference putting winters on just on frosty mornings is clear and easy for me to see when driving - in snow, it is night and day. Given my location and daily commute, I need to have my car set up to get me to work whatever the weather, winter tyres is part of this.

The video earlier in the thread makes an interesting point about permanent all wheel drive versus systems that only come to 4x4 "when required"... one of the reasons I chose the Subaru was the permanent 4x4 over Haldex style systems... the latter seem to struggle a lot more when I see them on the road, as once the car looses traction it can be too late when all wheel drive kicks in to save the situation, whereas having all wheel drive permanently does seem to give a definite edge when the going gets properly tough.


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## snowy1 (Jan 3, 2014)

Nokian are brilliant if you're considering winter tyres and can them in stock online, I am using Nokian WR SUV 3 on the Mitsubishi.


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## Sveneng (Apr 20, 2008)

I chose the Nokian's as well based on all of the recent group tests I read, they always seemed to score well. Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending how you look at it) we've not had any really bad weather here in Oxford to really put them to the test yet.


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## Suba (Feb 2, 2013)

Nanoman said:


> People talking about it being expensive need to check their sums. I reckon you could get a spare set of wheels and cheap winter tyres for the same price as decent summer tyres.


The difficulty I have is initial purchase. Agree that overall running costs will balance, but 4 winter tyres will set me back in excess of £600 (the same as my summer tyres). Ideally I'd want different rims too and that would add another significant chunk of money.

Having driven on summer, all-season and winter tyres I'm happy that winter tyres are better even simply in cold weather (I can feel a difference in how my summer tyres feel when it gets to about 5°C)

But at the moment there isn't enough justification for spending an 'optional' £600 on winter tyres for my scenario.


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## slineclean (Dec 23, 2011)

Another factor Ive gone the route with winter tyres is unfort in all the years of driving its only been this last 3 or 4 years ive had so much experience in snow conditions. 

In the past its always been a light coating so never really learned to get used to snowy conditions but now ive got a far better value car and hence its not a old banger. So hence you are more mindful ( if you want to look after your car ) 

So to me if winter tyres will help with grip etc I will want them. I leave early in the morning ( which doesn't worry me and I know I can prod along ) but hence coming home in crap weather unfort I can drive being cautious at all times but ive got to mindful of the other drivers and how they drive.

Ive recently purchased a second set of alloys and lucky im in a position where my current summer tyres on my alloys are coming to the end of their life span ( espy front two tyres ) so im going to change my tyres to winters and its going to cost £600. £150 a corner if go the continental route. 

Ive have previously had set of older alloys for winter tyres but ive just sold them to help with the funds to go to these new winter tyres and knowing I like both sets of alloys , im going to use the 2 sets for 6 months of the year. 

A bonus to help spread the life span of the tyres too.

Im setting up a e saver account to put £20 a month in to help save some funds away for future tyre purchases.


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## Caledoniandream (Oct 9, 2009)

I know what people mean when they say: "you have hardly any need for them in the UK, because it doesn't snow often enough"
And yes it's another cost. 
Mostly the same people wouldn't mind to spend similar money on modification or ICE for their car, it's all about priorities. 
Don't miss the fact that Winter tyres are designed for colder weather, and normal / summer tyres are a compromise in colder, wetter weather. 
I wouldn't let my family drive in the winter without the correct tyres, their lives are worth more to me, than the money a set cost. 
But that is my choice. 
Regarding if you need them or not, and why should you pay out for something what gives a visible difference maybe 2 days a year. 
Think of all the other safety features your car has which you pay a fortune for, but probably never or very seldom use. 
Think about ABS, ESP, Airbags, Crumple zones, Traction control, seat belts, seat belt tensioners. 
I drove longer cars who didn't have above features, but wouldn't buy a car without anymore. 
It's like a spare tyre, lot of money for something you probably never use, but bloody handy when you have it, when you have a puncture in the middle of nowhere with no telephone reception.


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## RisingPower (Sep 21, 2007)

Caledoniandream said:


> I know what people mean when they say: "you have hardly any need for them in the UK, because it doesn't snow often enough"
> And yes it's another cost.
> Mostly the same people wouldn't mind to spend similar money on modification or ICE for their car, it's all about priorities.
> Don't miss the fact that Winter tyres are designed for colder weather, and normal / summer tyres are a compromise in colder, wetter weather.
> ...


I use traction control all the time  The m3 didn't have a spare and it's not possible for me to have a spare either.

So, if you got a courtesy car, you wouldn't let your family drive it?


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## Marszczak (May 11, 2011)

If you guys would like to hear some winter tire stories from Poland - let me know. -40C and 50-100cm of snow is nothing unusual - however recently more like uk weather is what we have here...
I went through many manufacturers like Dunlop, Kleber, Nokian and so on.


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## possul (Nov 14, 2008)

But if you slow down you can still get grip from tyres can you not? Yes I know some places are worse than others, but if I had winter tyres can still drive at summer speeds regardless of conditions? 

Thats the impression I get from most tbh


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

possul said:


> But if you slow down you can still get grip from tyres can you not? Yes I know some places are worse than others, but if I had winter tyres can still drive at summer speeds regardless of conditions?
> 
> Thats the impression I get from most tbh


They are going to be significantly better than summer tyres in the snow. However the difference between summer tyres in the summer and winter tyres in the winter is huge.

Nothing sticks to ice and if you hit ice, you're still going lose all grip.

It does read as if people think 4wd or winter tyres makes them safe in the snow. That's wrong on both accounts.

Hopefully people don't get too carried away before they find the limits come much earlier than they expect.

The most I'm hoping for is to have enough traction to make it slowly along roads that would have been difficult in the past.


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## dubstyle (Jun 13, 2007)

I've got winter on my M3, i first bought them for my 325 coupe 4 year ago. I would normally get stuck on the smallest in inclines with the summer 255 rears, I switched to nokian winter tyre on a 17inch rim and never looked back. I'm up and down country lanes every day so they do not get gritted and i have been places where 4x4's get stuck because they have "Sports" summer tyres on. They perform alot better in weather below 7 degrees so wet and winter weather not just snow.

Here is a shot from last night, i would never go out in a over a foot on snow then i would get stuck.


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## NeilG40 (Jan 1, 2009)

Thinking back to the bad winter four years ago when I first got my winter tyres, it was probably a bit reckless but I drove at 30mph down a road covered in a layer of ice about 2cm or more thick the car didn't slide about at all and I didn't have any trouble stopping.


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## Caledoniandream (Oct 9, 2009)

RisingPower said:


> I use traction control all the time  The m3 didn't have a spare and it's not possible for me to have a spare either.
> 
> So, if you got a courtesy car, you wouldn't let your family drive it?


You are correct there, I won't let them drive a courtesy car in the winter, I even make sure that my rental car abroad in North Europe has Winter tyres, what in Germany and Poland never is a problem.

Winter tyres however are not a magic potion, and you still need to drive with care and attention. 
But it makes the difference to stop in time, or to pull out of the way of that sliding car towards you. 
Its no a free card to drive faster, more careless or pull that hard away that your traction control has to kick in
But it is added safety and added convenience, to make sure that if I get caught out in heavy snow (Mid-Wales) I can safely return to my loved ones. 
It got me out of problems, a couple of years ago when I was commuting between Scotland and Birmingham., people where stuck in their cars, and I kept slowly going.

I am actually not interested if somebody want to use winter tyres or not, but I laugh at the excuses.


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## Squadrone Rosso (Aug 11, 2009)

My soon to arrive new car (FIAT Panda Cross 4x4) come with standard fit Goodyear Vector 4 seasons tyres.

These have the snowflake and M & S markings.

Any good?


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## percymon (Jun 27, 2007)

We have winter tyres on both our daily cars this year, previously just the main car for last 4 years. I'd not be without them..

> my 28 mile commute to/from work is pretty much driven in the dark from November thru March, when ambient air temps are below 7'C most of the time
> winter tyres are not just for snow -below 7'C they have shorter stopping distances and better cornering ability than summer tyres, whose compounds harden at low temps
> the generally smaller diameter of winter rims means more ride comfort
> I'd rather be wearing out £60-100/corner tyres through winter than £150-180 summer tyres
> keeps my summer alloys in better condition, avoiding salt, stone chips etc

And every winter I pass multiple accidents where a variety of cars leave the road in slippery conditions.

Biggest downside for winter tyres to me is that other drivers think there is more grip for them than they have.

Good to see that this year the ABI have got their act together, got some commitment from the insurance companies and have published the list of companies that will accept winter wheels/tyres without penalty to premiums or cover.


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## spursfan (Aug 4, 2009)

Squadrone Rosso said:


> My soon to arrive new car (FIAT Panda Cross 4x4) come with standard fit Goodyear Vector 4 seasons tyres.
> 
> These have the snowflake and M & S markings.
> 
> Any good?


Should be good in the winter, especially with a 4x4 system, have you checked out any reviews on these tyres?


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## Squadrone Rosso (Aug 11, 2009)

spursfan said:


> Should be good on the winter, especially with a 4x4 system, have you checked out any reviews on these tyres?


They seem to rate very highly and from what I've read & the Cross videos I've seen:thumb:


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## Cookies (Dec 10, 2008)

Found this and it seems to be a pretty good test on ice!

Tire Rack Tire Test - Winter/Snow vs. All-Season …:


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## RisingPower (Sep 21, 2007)

Caledoniandream said:


> You are correct there, I won't let them drive a courtesy car in the winter, I even make sure that my rental car abroad in North Europe has Winter tyres, what in Germany and Poland never is a problem.
> 
> Winter tyres however are not a magic potion, and you still need to drive with care and attention.
> But it makes the difference to stop in time, or to pull out of the way of that sliding car towards you.
> ...


I'm guessing a car isn't the sole means of transport to work then and you've never had a courtesy car in winter.

You could argue that people should only ever buy runflats with similar reasoning.


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## Dave KG (Feb 23, 2006)

Winter tyres are not for me an excuse to drive like a tool in severe conditions, more a necessity for the weather that often occurs where I live! I have 4x4 and I have winter tyres to handle the conditions I regularly have to drive to work through, plain and simple... 

And in winter, I count many cars off the Crieff-'Feldy road, in ditches or worse at one point, missing the loch literally by inches, upside down down an embankment and this past week coming into Grantully a car that had gone straight on at a bend, smashed into a tree (which was lucky as it stopped them going into the imfamous rapids of the Tay at this point that are used for kayaking championships!)... Having winters on, my car feels more stable in severe conditions with better traction and grip under steering and braking - optimal set up for the car in the conditions, combined with a straight forward approach of taking my time and not taking any risks.

I'm sure the driving experts will be able to fit slick tyres to an F1 car and plough through a foot of snow with careful clutch control  ... I'm afraid I lack that skill  So like many other meer mortals, I set my car up to help me out in the conditions


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## Nanoman (Jan 17, 2009)

Incidentally before I put the Wintrac Extremes on I was using Conti4x4Contacts with plenty tread but I was fed up wheelspinning away from junctions and sliding around roundabouts when it was cold and wet. The difference when I put the winters on was instant and blew me away. There was no snow or ice in sight but I instantly realised how much of an advantage they'd be if I had to do some evasive maneuvering or heavy breaking.


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## RisingPower (Sep 21, 2007)

Dave KG said:


> Winter tyres are not for me an excuse to drive like a tool in severe conditions, more a necessity for the weather that often occurs where I live! I have 4x4 and I have winter tyres to handle the conditions I regularly have to drive to work through, plain and simple...
> 
> And in winter, I count many cars off the Crieff-'Feldy road, in ditches or worse at one point, missing the loch literally by inches, upside down down an embankment and this past week coming into Grantully a car that had gone straight on at a bend, smashed into a tree (which was lucky as it stopped them going into the imfamous rapids of the Tay at this point that are used for kayaking championships!)... Having winters on, my car feels more stable in severe conditions with better traction and grip under steering and braking - optimal set up for the car in the conditions, combined with a straight forward approach of taking my time and not taking any risks.
> 
> I'm sure the driving experts will be able to fit slick tyres to an F1 car and plough through a foot of snow with careful clutch control  ... I'm afraid I lack that skill  So like many other meer mortals, I set my car up to help me out in the conditions


You have a little thing called hills or mountains which cambridge really doesn't have


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## possul (Nov 14, 2008)

As above dave, you ate definitely one the needs them, if I lived were you live id have them fitted myself


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## Dave KG (Feb 23, 2006)

As well as winter tyres, I also carry with me a snow shovel, plastic grips for under the wheels to help gain traction (not needed them yet, rocking the car usually suffices to free it from deep drifts in fields), tow rope, clothes, blankets, food, torch, high vis and never run below half a tank of fuel. All probably sounds very sad, but better safe than f*****


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## szladob (Jun 5, 2013)

I may be a bit unique here, as I am a full proponent of winter tyres, since I have been driving with those for almost 20 years now - but on the continent... When I studied in the US, had all season tyres, which worked OK on a front wheel drive car in an area where we had considerably more snow than here in Hertfordshire.. 
However, been driving in the UK for about 8 years, with front wheel drive car on summer tyres, and haven't had an issue yet... I am quite used to driving in snow, and all the electronics in the car also help on those rare days when it matters... 
I am probably more worried about being on the road around the average UK driver in the snow than what tyres I have on   
Nonetheless, we have a full set on my better halves car, just because she loves them too from previous life on the continent.. 
Last year i got a nicer car, so been thinking a lot about what would be the best tyre setup, especially that I drive less than 6-7000 mi a year.. In other words, my winter tyres (would be about £600) would have to go into the bin after 5-6 years ( when they harden up and don't function properly any more) with full thread on them.. My summer tyres that would be used less, would probably crack all around the sides, so probably those would need to be binned before wearing out as well..  
ie. the "economy" of the winter tyres really only work if you drive lots...

So I was really thinking more about the all-season tyres, which is the majority of the tyres in the US, while in the UK, seemingly the majority of the people drive on exclusive summer tyres all year around, even though the temperature hardly ever goes above 25C... In fact, you can only buy a couple of low to mid range/quality all season tyres.... It's really surprising to me, as if somebody doesn't want to have 2 sets of tyres (as we always had on the continent), why wouldn't they use all-season, which by the way last a lot longer as well (treadwear values can be up to 500-800). 
In the US, they even sell ultra high performance all season tyres (e.g. Conti, Michelin, etc), but don't have the E letter on them, thus can't import them...  





I am certain that even a high quality all season tyre will perform less in the hot summer against a true summer tyre, and certainly less than a winter tyre in a snowy winter, but for people choosing to drive only one set of tyres, it would make so much more sense, unless I am really missing something... 
So still thinking of spending the money on winter tyres just for the love of it, but my 8 years of driving conditions really don't justify them (on a front wheel drive car)...


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## GlynRS2 (Jan 21, 2006)

Dave KG said:


> I'm sure the driving experts will be able to fit slick tyres to an F1 car and plough through a foot of snow with careful clutch control  ... I'm afraid I lack that skill  So like many other meer mortals, I set my car up to help me out in the conditions


I totally agree with this. Like Dave I lack the skill and car control of the people who can manage without winter tyres. Therefore I fit them so hopefully I can avoid them when they try to stop or go round a corner :thumb:


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## ffrs1444 (Jun 7, 2008)

All the people who dis the fitting of winter tyres ? Surly it's better to be safe then sorry all it take is a little bit of black ice and bye bye car, I was lucky to get some cheap wheels last years and jumped to the chance in getting winter tyres fitted even in the wet much better drive


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## ffrs1444 (Jun 7, 2008)

RisingPower said:


> I use traction control all the time  The m3 didn't have a spare and it's not possible for me to have a spare either.
> 
> So, if you got a courtesy car, you wouldn't let your family drive it?


Most cars have some sort of traction control once you have lost control on the ice that isn't going to help you


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## Suba (Feb 2, 2013)

ffrs1444 said:


> All the people who dis the fitting of winter tyres ? Surly it's better to be safe then sorry all it take is a little bit of black ice and bye bye car, I was lucky to get some cheap wheels last years and jumped to the chance in getting winter tyres fitted even in the wet much better drive


So while agreeing that fitting winter tyres is probably the right thing to do, the UK's typical weather conditions don't make a compelling case for them. The last main advertising for winter tyres followed very unusual snowfall across most of the country.

My friend from Sweden also commented that there are just the same number of accidents with winter tyres - people tend to drive just as badly with them ;-)

It would be great if winter tyres did become the norm in line with a number of other European countries, but might need a concerted campaign and financial incentive (such as zero VAT on winter tyres and insurance reductions).


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

ffrs1444 said:


> All the people who dis the fitting of winter tyres ? Surly it's better to be safe then sorry all it take is a little bit of black ice and bye bye car, I was lucky to get some cheap wheels last years and jumped to the chance in getting winter tyres fitted even in the wet much better drive


Winter tyres aren't going to grip on black ice either.

I think too many people are exaggerating the benefits or assuming too much. Yes they make a difference, but nowhere near as much as some people are assuming.


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## RisingPower (Sep 21, 2007)

ffrs1444 said:


> Most cars have some sort of traction control once you have lost control on the ice that isn't going to help you


Exactly, a lot of the time traction control is more of a hindrance than a help.


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## RisingPower (Sep 21, 2007)

Dave KG said:


> As well as winter tyres, I also carry with me a snow shovel, plastic grips for under the wheels to help gain traction (not needed them yet, rocking the car usually suffices to free it from deep drifts in fields), tow rope, clothes, blankets, food, torch, high vis and never run below half a tank of fuel. All probably sounds very sad, but better safe than f*****


Shush you, just because you live in a pretty winter wonderland in the middle of nowhere which actually requires some kit


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## percymon (Jun 27, 2007)

Half the issues with winter driving in the UK are caused by the marketing drive to bigger and bigger rims, virtually always fitted with summer compound, performance related tyres. 

Cars sold in the UK really should be fitted with all-season tyres, as they are the only tyre type that truely covers the bases of the British weather.

Sadly when it comes to buying replacement tyres, there are normally four camps..

> whats the best rated summer performance tyre i can buy
> replace whats on like for like
> summer performance biased tyres at budget/medium price range
> whatever the cheapest is in the size, or suggested by the tyre fitter


I appreciate not everyone can afford two sets of wheels, or has the space to permanently store the second set. But unless you want to corner like Lewis Hamilton you are probably wiser to fit all season tyres when you next need replacements (and yes, there's not much choice  ).

If you asked people who have/do use winter tyres whether they would continue in future I dare say very few would say they wouldn't bother.


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## Nanoman (Jan 17, 2009)

Suba said:


> So while agreeing that fitting winter tyres is probably the right thing to do, the UK's typical weather conditions don't make a compelling case for them.


There's not a compelling case...? I think I mentioned before that in the event of needing to brake hard or avoid an accident someone with summer tyres CAN'T avoid and accident that someone on winter tyres CAN. That's compelling enough for me.



Kerr said:


> Winter tyres aren't going to grip on black ice either.
> 
> I think too many people are exaggerating the benefits or assuming too much. Yes they make a difference, but nowhere near as much as some people are assuming.


Winter tyres will have better traction than summer tyres on ice. You will be able to turn better, brake better and accelerate better.

If I edit your post a little...

I think too many people are missing the benefits or assuming too much. Yes they make a difference, far more than some people are assuming.


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

Nanoman said:


> There's not a compelling case...? I think I mentioned before that in the event of needing to brake hard or avoid an accident someone with summer tyres CAN'T avoid and accident that someone on winter tyres CAN. That's compelling enough for me.
> 
> Winter tyres will have better traction than summer tyres on ice. You will be able to turn better, brake better and accelerate better.
> 
> ...


Why are you altering my quote? I'm not assuming anything.

Yes they have better traction, but it's not really going to make the difference if you are going to fly off the road or not if you hit black ice.

I was messing around in the frozen compact snow/icy roads today and the difference isn't huge. I can still skid, slide and wheelspin without too much persuasion. They can't work miracles.

They make some difference, but I stand by my opinion that people are making them out to be far greater than they are.

I also don't buy into this sudden 7° fall off point that is so commonly used. My Goodyear Eagle AS2s performed better on normal roads in the same near freezing conditions that my Vredestein winter tyres do.

People make them sound like they are going to perform miracles. You still need to drive with the same amount of care and attention as before.

The MX5 felt horrible when she put budget winters on in panic last year. The car felt unsafe trying to drive at normal speeds on damp roads. I'd question that budget winters were any better than premium summer tyres for anything other than snow lying on the ground.

I've not seen over 1" of snow for about 3 years now.


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## Nanoman (Jan 17, 2009)

Kerr said:


> Why are you altering my quote? I'm not assuming anything.


I'm altering your quote because you don't seem to get why people use winter tyres. Here's an obvious example...



Kerr said:


> Yes they have better traction, but it's not really going to make the difference if you are going to fly off the road or not if you hit black ice.


The guy on summer tyres will 'fly off the road' where the guy on winter tyres goes merrily on his way though.

Here's another example...


Kerr said:


> Winter tyres aren't going to grip on black ice either.


As I said, winter tyres will grip far better on black ice than summer tyres will.

The examples you're using against winter tyres are the exact reason winter tyres are a good idea. It's hilarious to read.

"They won't grip on black ice and they won't help if you fly of the road". But winter tyres will grip a lot better than summer tyres on black ice and you'll slide off the road on summer tyres long before the guy on winter tyres!


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

Nanoman said:


> I'm altering your quote because you don't seem to get why people use winter tyres. Here's an obvious example...
> 
> The guy on summer tyres will 'fly off the road' where the guy on winter tyres goes merrily on his way though.
> 
> ...


I fully understand why people use them.

I think you need to read what I've actually typed without reading what you want to see.

Just to make it clearer, they do offer better grip on ice. However the difference isn't significant enough that if you were going to fly off the road with summer tyres, you will miraculously stay on the road with winter tyres.

I did think I made that easy enough to understand.

From 30kph( 18.5mph) Continental(premium tyre maker) say winter tyres will take 57m braking distance to stop on ice. 68m for summer tyres on ice.

18.5mph and it still takes 57m to stop which is a long way. So in the time you've hit black ice at much faster than 18.5mph on winter tyres you're off the side of the road in 1m.

The braking distance in the dry at 20mph is 6m and people still manage to fall off the road.

The rule they use is ice increases stopping distances by 10x

I'll stand by my opinion again that if you hit black ice you're unlikely to have much chance of saving it between winters and summer.

You'll have extra grip (about 19%) according to continental, but that's nowhere near enough to reduce braking or sliding distances enough on ice if you hit it and lose control.

http://www.continental-tyres.co.uk/.../van-tyres/winter-tyres/why-winter-tyres.html


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## Nanoman (Jan 17, 2009)

Kerr said:


> I fully understand why people use them.
> 
> I think you need to read what I've actually typed without reading what you want to see.
> 
> ...


I'm reading what you've typed. Nothing more or less.

Black ice is just ice. Here's an example of the benefits of winter tyres on ice (black or otherwise) and there's not a bit of snow in site.






As I've said, the guy on winter tyres CAN avoid an accident that the guy on summer tyres CAN'T. That might be because they can stop quicker, or retain enough traction to stay in control and steer around a hazard, or simply that they don't slide off the road where the guy on summer tyres ends up in a ditch. That could very realistically make the difference between life and death.

Yes, it's as easy to get winter tyres to wheelspin and slide as summer tyres but they sure as hell will make a difference in circumstances you seem to claim they won't do much at all.

People say... we don't have winters that merit winter tyres. The exact same argument turned the other way is... we don't have summers that merit summer tyres. Yet summer tyres ship as standard on cars in the UK and that's what people buy rather than the more appropriate All Season tyres. I'd go as far as saying you need to be pushing the limits in the dry summer months to get the benefits of summer tyres over all season, or winter tyres.

Just to highlight the bit you said above in bold. Your post contradicts what you're saying so I've corrected it for you...

*Just to make it clearer, they do offer better grip on ice. The difference is significant enough that if you were going to fly off the road with summer tyres, you may well stay on the road with winter tyres. *

If you get 19% extra grip does that mean if 100 cars take an icy corner at the same speed, just above the traction limit of summer tyres, then 81 (in summer tyres) will lose control and 19 (on winter tyres) will carry on with no issue? Does it mean that if 100 cars travelling at the same speed have a dog/toddler/truck cut in front of them then 81 (on summer tyres) will hit the dog/toddler/truck but 19 (on winter tyres) won't?


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

The original post you picked up on was when I quoted another member when hitting black ice. Not driving around an ice rink at a few MPH anticipating the ice. 

Black ice you can't see. People aren't driving at 10mph taking into account the black ice, they are driving normally before getting caught out. Nobody even drives at 10mph on snow. 

So when you are driving at reasonable speeds on roads and catch black ice unexpectedly, you're still likely to be going to go off the road. 

Try the same experiment at 30mph, normal driving speeds and all the cars will fly off the road. Yes at 10mph you'll make the corner, but at 30 or 40mph you're going off. Until the point traction is lost the car will move in the right direction. Once gone they just slide like that. 

Again as I've said, I fully acknowledge that winter tyres give extra grip. Continental's figures suggest 19% better than summers on ice. 

However my opinion, and common sense, tells you when the braking distances are 1000% worse than dry conditions, it's not a huge gap to be 19% better on ice. 

We're splitting hairs when people can't even avoid crashing in perfect conditions. 

If people throw on winter tyres and go out there thinking they can drive normally, they are going to get a shock when they run out of grip much earlier than they assumed.

At 10mph it might save 19% of drivers. At 30mph you are all going off the road.


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

Am I talking a foreign language, or do people understand what I'm getting at?


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## RisingPower (Sep 21, 2007)

percymon said:


> Half the issues with winter driving in the UK are caused by the marketing drive to bigger and bigger rims, virtually always fitted with summer compound, performance related tyres.
> 
> Cars sold in the UK really should be fitted with all-season tyres, as they are the only tyre type that truely covers the bases of the British weather.
> 
> ...


What a load of.. All season tyres are designed to be a compromise.

If you buy a lotus exige and put all seasons on it, it would serve no purpose.


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## RisingPower (Sep 21, 2007)

Kerr said:


> Am I talking a foreign language, or do people understand what I'm getting at?


Je ne sais pas.


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## RisingPower (Sep 21, 2007)

Nanoman said:


> The exact same argument turned the other way is... we don't have summers that merit summer tyres. Yet summer tyres ship as standard on cars in the UK and that's what people buy rather than the more appropriate All Season tyres. I'd go as far as saying you need to be pushing the limits in the dry summer months to get the benefits of summer tyres over all season, or winter tyres.


IMHO british summers are getting warmer and weather seems to be getting warmer generally.

I want to be able to enjoy the weather, not be held back by crap uncommunicative tyres. If it's cold, I drive more carefully.

All season tyres are not appropriate, they're fully acknowledged not to work brilliantly in either cold or hot conditions, they're a compromise.


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## Puntoboy (Jun 30, 2007)

Bought winter tyres and 17" wheels last year, loved it. No snow worth mentioning but the feel of the car on winter tyres in the cold weather was immense. Much more stable than on summers. 

This year I decided to bin off the 17" wheels as I didn't like them on the Jag. So have gone for 20" Nokian winter tyres instead. Still no snow but still happier with the added grip.


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## GleemSpray (Jan 26, 2014)

Yes, I get it. I agree with your points Kerr 
I would fit winter tyres if I lived in the countryside or had to cover big distances in winter. 

But i live in a town, where the volume of traffic will raise tarmac and air temperature, so i am happy to potter carefully for the first mile or so till my tyres (and brakes and suspension) warm up. Then my "summer" tyres will work on the tarmac every bit as well as the winter ones. Of course I will be driving more cautiously, because it's freezing or near freezing cold weather. 

I even have a little light on the dashboard to tell me to drive carefully because it's near freezing. 

If it's icy or snowbound , I can work from home whenever I like and I don't have any time critical journeys to make . 

The people who are being so smug and patronising about this will inevitably be the people who drive like arrogant ****s when the roads are treacherous and will be the sort who witness lots of winter crashes, in their rear view mirror .....


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## Nanoman (Jan 17, 2009)

GleemSpray said:


> Y i am happy to potter carefully for the first mile or so till my tyres (and brakes and suspension) warm up. Then my "summer" tyres will work on the tarmac every bit as well as the winter ones.


But your summer tyres won't work every bit as well as winter ones.


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## szladob (Jun 5, 2013)

RisingPower said:


> All season tyres are not appropriate, they're fully acknowledged not to work brilliantly in either cold or hot conditions, they're a compromise.


Well, I would say there is a very small percentage of the UK drivers, who drives on public roads in such a way, that they can harvest the small difference between summer tyres and high quality all-season tyres (again, not the rubbish ones they sell in the UK), but probably a lot more people would be faced with the difference of the all-season tyre and summer tyre in the winter. So yes, they are undoubtably a compromise, but your scenario is a compromise as well, isn't it? You have amazing traction in the "warm" days, and poor performance in the cold days... Furthermore, even a summer tyre is a compromise, since I am sure you can by dedicated track tyres that will have even better traction, but more on dry surface, or specifically for wet surface, etc.. so where do you draw the line?
So while two sets of tyres provide the best of both world, but with a single set of tyres, I think the average drivers would benefit from the all-season compromise rather than the summer tyre compromise..


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## ffrs1444 (Jun 7, 2008)

Kerr said:


> Winter tyres aren't going to grip on black ice either.
> 
> I think too many people are exaggerating the benefits or assuming too much. Yes they make a difference, but nowhere near as much as some people are assuming.


What would be the point in making winters tyres if they didn't grip ice/black ice/snow you should look into the breaking distance winter tyres do.

At the end of the day it's personal preference for extra safety pretty shaw when someone writes there car of into a hedge they might change there mind then.


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## ffrs1444 (Jun 7, 2008)

Suba said:


> So while agreeing that fitting winter tyres is probably the right thing to do, the UK's typical weather conditions don't make a compelling case for them. The last main advertising for winter tyres followed very unusual snowfall across most of the country.
> 
> My friend from Sweden also commented that there are just the same number of accidents with winter tyres - people tend to drive just as badly with them ;-)
> 
> It would be great if winter tyres did become the norm in line with a number of other European countries, but might need a concerted campaign and financial incentive (such as zero VAT on winter tyres and insurance reductions).


I'd say it's peace of mind mate, just like saying why have smoke alarms in the house and cctv to keep car safe, I'm the sort of person after its happened thinks to my self wish I'd had done that or this, Why park my car at the end of the supermarket car park to stop dinks to avid what could happen without , Defo money well spent in my eyes if we don't get much ice/snow this year I say happy days but will still have them on next year just for peace of mind


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## dubstyle (Jun 13, 2007)

For me winter tyres in certain conditions have been night and day compared to summer low profile tyres.

When it does snow the winter tyres made it so I could drive the m3 every day and not have to think whether I would get stuck. You sill have to drive sensibly no driving round a corner in the snow at 30mph.

They are great for heavy rain and wintery weather, the 8mm tread reduces the chance of the aquaplaning and the sipes help the tyre contact to the road better.

I like them and they work for me, I see peoples point about "what's the point" in the UK but a set of winters will last me 6 years with the milage I do so I'm happy

on a side note this is always a good example for rear wheel cars - M3 in Snow


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## Nanoman (Jan 17, 2009)

Interestingly my wintrac extreme's on the front are only just legal right now (until I get paid next week) but they're still performing brilliantly. I went up the Fairlie Moor road late on saturday night which wasn't gritted but the farmer had attempted (not very successfully) to plough it. It's very steep with a few patches of black ice over the tarmac where meltwater was running down but it felt very well planted with only a few sections where I could feel the 4WD kicking in. 

You could see lots of marks in the snow/slush where people had been unable to get any further and had been sliding all over the place. 

It was great fun!


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

ffrs1444 said:


> What would be the point in making winters tyres if they didn't grip ice/black ice/snow you should look into the breaking distance winter tyres do.
> 
> At the end of the day it's personal preference for extra safety pretty shaw when someone writes there car of into a hedge they might change there mind then.


I have looked into the braking distances. I even provided a link on the last page. You should take a read.

Sadly nothing defies physics when it comes to friction and ice.

As per the data supplied by the Continental tyre company and the highway code, add at least 10x the stopping distance on ice.

Here it is just for you again.

http://www.continental-tyres.co.uk/.../van-tyres/winter-tyres/why-winter-tyres.html

The braking distance in the dry is given as 6m. On ice with winter tyres the braking distance is 57m. So there is a 51m difference between dry conditions and ice, yet summer tyres on ice are only 11m worse than winter tyres.

They are better than summer tyres on ice. However the difference between stopping in 57m or 68m is very unlikely to be the difference in an accident. You're probably only ever 10m away from the car in front.

So the difference between stopping from just 20mph is over half a football pitch on ice. If you hit black ice you have next to no grip you simply can't stop or change direction.

Go round a corner at any speed and you're only 1 m from going off the road one side, or hitting a car on the other.

Continental also give a little explanation how the tread is designed to bite into snow to gain grip. You can't bite into ice with rubber.

At 31mph braking distances are 8m apart according to Contential.

If you read what I've posted, I fully understand that winter tyres make a difference over summer tyres in poor conditions. Braking distances are down about 20% which is a good improvement. However when you are jumping from stopping in just a few meters to 40-60m, you have to account for that.

What I'm pointing out to people like yourself, they don't perform miracles. You can't grip on ice to any great level with rubber. You can't go out and drive on snow and ice and assume your tyres are going to save you no matter what.

They simply aren't. Like I say the tyres do help to a certain degree, however people are exaggerating that to silly levels.


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## Nanoman (Jan 17, 2009)

Kerr, I see where you're coming from but you're making one or two inaccurate, fairly silly statements in with the sensible stuff.

No-one thinks you can stick winter tyres on then go onto an icy, snowy road and drive it the same as you can with Pilot Sport 3's in July. I agree that anyone who thinks that is insane.

There ARE however lots of circumstances where having winter tyres will save you from having an accident that you could not avoid if you had summer tyres on. 

The flip side is you have to be aware that most road users won't be able to brake as well as you so you're far more likely to get rear ended by someone with summer tyres on!


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## szladob (Jun 5, 2013)

Nanoman said:


> Interestingly my wintrac extreme's on the front are only just legal right now (until I get paid next week) but they're still performing brilliantly.


Do you mean like down to 1.6 mm? As most winter tyres will have two types of marks, one is the legal (1.6mm), but there is a another (I think about 4-5mm!) which is for winter performance. Ie. when you are below that, the tyre is legal to drive, and likely still benefit from the soft rubber compound, but the ice/snow performance is not there anymore...


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## Nanoman (Jan 17, 2009)

szladob said:


> Do you mean like down to 1.6 mm? As most winter tyres will have two types of marks, one is the legal (1.6mm), but there is a another (I think about 4-5mm!) which is for winter performance. Ie. when you are below that, the tyre is legal to drive, and likely still benefit from the soft rubber compound, but the ice/snow performance is not there anymore...


They're down about 2mm. I'm as surprised as anyone at how well they're coping (4WD is helping on the bad bits though as rears are about 5-6mm).


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

Nanoman, If you read back the post this all steams from, it'll make more sense. I quoted FFRS1444 after he implied that with winter tyres he was fine on black ice and summer tyres would see your car go bye bye. He's came back with a retort highlighting he thinks that way. 

You then for some reason took a little exception to this. 

There is nothing silly about my posts at all. You were apparently laughing at me earlier and now calling some of my points silly with absolutely no valid reason. All the facts indicate exactly what I've said. Snow tyres don't perform miracles. Getting up a hill while on the limit of grip isn't a miracle unless the hill is 70°.

The only counterargument you could give was cars crawling around on ice. It's irrelevant to real world driving and doesn't prove anything more than at 10 mph you'd be fine. The point I was making is you'll struggle with any tyres on black ice at normal speeds on normal roads. You have next to no grip. 

Doesn't 57m from 18.5mph not highlight that enough? 

I've already acknowledged about 6 times now that they make a difference. It appears braking distances are improved over by somewhere around 20%. Yes that's a good improvement, but you are still a long way off normal stopping distances and still too much to drive normally. 

However on ice they are 1000%, yes 1000% worse than summer tyres in the dry. 

I've refrained from laughing at you or finding your points silly, but for the life of me I can't quite work out how you aren't quite grasping my point. 

I don't mind an argument at all, but I find it distasteful when you have to resort to using phrases like that as you don't agree with me. 

You think winter tyres are wonderful and that's your opinion. I've never said your opinion is wrong. 

I've given my opinion based on my usage of winter tyres and used factual tests to prove why I have my opinion. 

I'm not grasping why your arguing against test figures that show the huge difference when all I'm highlighting to people is just because you've got winter tyres, you aren't safe in poor conditions. 

This point of the thread has been done to the death now. Let's just just back to winter tyre normal chat. 

I'm sure most people have grasped what I'm meaning, but we're going over the same ground again.


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## 182_Blue (Oct 25, 2005)

Enough now, PM each other if you wish to carry on.


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## possul (Nov 14, 2008)

Kerr said:


> Am I talking a foreign language, or do people understand what I'm getting at?


Perfectly


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## percymon (Jun 27, 2007)

RisingPower said:


> What a load of.. All season tyres are designed to be a compromise.
> 
> If you buy a lotus exige and put all seasons on it, it would serve no purpose.


If you want a track day tool, or want to corner hard on UK roads in drier / warmer weather in a sports car then yes you'd want the best tyres for the purpose - I'm not denying that. Similarly if you wanted to drive your Elise moderately all year round, including the worst of the British winters you wouldn't ideally fit high performance summer tyres. There are a relatively small number who get to use a Elise, Porsche 911, Maserati, Ferrari etc as their wheels, but you won't see many of them out in the worst of the British winter (not on summer rubber at least). I know from experience what driving a rear wheel drive Porsche on the best summer rubber in 4 inches of snow is like - whilst i did better than the RWD Jaguar ahead of me it was not a pleasant experience, even for just the 5 miles i had to do to that day. The very reason that Porsche and many other manufacturers offer (and recommend) winter tyre programmes is to best equip said vehicle for the conditions - simples.

For average joe in a family saloon / hatch then all seasons are still the better option IMO, yet car manufacturers still insist on fitting high performance summer rubber to their cars - Goodyear all seasons are perfectly good for 90% of drivers of mondeo, focus, fiesta, A/B/C class mercs, etc etc - average joe doesn't need Pirelli P Zero super sticky rubber on a freezing cold day in the UK. 50% of UK drivers probably don't even know what make tyres they have fitted, never mind what model , rating etc.

For what its worth my last two 'family' cars were a new Mk6 Golf and an Audi A3 - both 1.6TDI models with a meagre 105bhp. The Golf came fitted with Z rated Bridgestone RE050 tyres (also fitted by Ferrari, so god only knows why VW felt the need on a lowly Golf), the Audi slightly more sensible Bridgestone Turanza - both cars performed exceptionally on Nokian winter tyres over 4 winters in ALL conditions. My decision to buy winter wheels ? - The Golf two days after delivery almost got stuck in an inch of snow on a moderate incline - the traction control and ABS systems gave in after 20 minutes because it couldn't make any progress even in 2nd and 3rd gear at idle revs. I did eventually make progress, but i was one of a handful of cars that did that day before the road was impassible due to abandoned cars. For me, I'll factor in the lesser handling and longer braking distances of winter tyres on 'hot winter' days, for the benefit I perceive they provide on the colder ones; a view that seems common amongst the 'adopters'.

As ever with such internet forum threads there will be the winter tyre converts and the doubters.

What you can't deny is that UK weather is variable. When coupled to peoples varying mileage, car dependency and location as well the cost and storage implications its no surprise there are differing views as to the need for seasonal tyres.

Winter tyres cannot defy the laws of physics in winter, in much the same way that summer tyres can't in summer.

Cold weather tyres will perform better in cold conditions, but worse in warmer ones. Vice versa summer rubber. All seasons are a compromise but maybe less of one for the average all year round UK motorist than a lot of people might think.

Thats my opinion, based on reading and personal experience - thats all it is


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## ffrs1444 (Jun 7, 2008)

percymon said:


> If you want a track day tool, or want to corner hard on UK roads in drier / warmer weather in a sports carthen yes you'd want the best tyres for the purpose - I'm not denying that. Similarly if you wanted to drive your Elise moderately all year round, including the worst of the British winters you wouldn't fit high performance summer tyres. There are a relatively small number who get to use a Elise, Porsche 911, Maserati, Ferrari etc as their wheels, but you won't see many of them out in the worst of the British winter (not on sumemr rubber at least). I know from experience what driving a rear wheel drive Porshce on the best summer rubber in 4 inches of snow is like - whilst i did better than the RWD Jaguar ahead of me it was not a pleasant experience, even for just the 5 miles i had to do to that day.
> 
> For average joe in a family saloon / hatch then all seasons are still the better option, yet car manuafcturers still insist on fitting high performance sumemr rubber to their cars - Goodyear all seasons are perfectly good for 90% of drivers on mondeo, focus, fiesta, A/B/C class mercs, etc etc - avergae joe doesn't need Pirelli P Zero super sticky rubber on a freezing cold day in the UK. 50% of UK drivers probably don't even know what make tyres they have fitted, never mind what model , rating etc.


Probley be better in the rain with less chance of auqaplaneing ,but then should be driving to that weather at the time


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## Nanoman (Jan 17, 2009)

Kerr said:


> Nanoman, If you... blah blah blah... ground again.


I'm not arguing. I'm having a healthy debate in good humour as far as I'm aware. I'll stick some smileys in so you know to take it the way it's meant (banter). :wave:

You responded to FFRS1444 saying winter tyres won't grip on black ice. I pointed out that winter tyres will grip better than summer tyres on black ice.:driver:

You then said winter tyres won't help when you go flying off the road. I pointed out that the guy on summer tyres will go flying off the road quite a bit before the guy on winter tyres does (not to mention even if you're sliding down the road you'll have more control of the slide with winter tyres than summer tyres). :thumb:

Personally I think you're doing winter tyres a dis-service and the examples you use of them not really helping are exactly where (in my opinion) they come into their own and are of most benefits. 

Now I'd like to keep my clean slate with the mods in here clean so I'll try to avoid going over this again.

I apologise if I've given you the impression I'm arguing with or picking on you. :devil:


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## 182_Blue (Oct 25, 2005)

Either of you continue from this point and i will lock it.

The whole topic has been done to death on numerous occasions anyway.


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## percymon (Jun 27, 2007)

ffrs1444 said:


> Probley be better in the rain with less chance of auqaplaneing ,but then should be driving to that weather at the time


Absolutely agree.

If everyone drove to the conditions at the time with appropriate set-ups then there would be very few accidents :tumbleweed:


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## RisingPower (Sep 21, 2007)

percymon said:


> If you want a track day tool, or want to corner hard on UK roads in drier / warmer weather in a sports car then yes you'd want the best tyres for the purpose - I'm not denying that. Similarly if you wanted to drive your Elise moderately all year round, including the worst of the British winters you wouldn't ideally fit high performance summer tyres. There are a relatively small number who get to use a Elise, Porsche 911, Maserati, Ferrari etc as their wheels, but you won't see many of them out in the worst of the British winter (not on summer rubber at least). I know from experience what driving a rear wheel drive Porsche on the best summer rubber in 4 inches of snow is like - whilst i did better than the RWD Jaguar ahead of me it was not a pleasant experience, even for just the 5 miles i had to do to that day. The very reason that Porsche and many other manufacturers offer (and recommend) winter tyre programmes is to best equip said vehicle for the conditions - simples.
> 
> For average joe in a family saloon / hatch then all seasons are still the better option IMO, yet car manufacturers still insist on fitting high performance summer rubber to their cars - Goodyear all seasons are perfectly good for 90% of drivers of mondeo, focus, fiesta, A/B/C class mercs, etc etc - average joe doesn't need Pirelli P Zero super sticky rubber on a freezing cold day in the UK. 50% of UK drivers probably don't even know what make tyres they have fitted, never mind what model , rating etc.
> 
> ...


I can't say i've ever had any problems on a moderate incline in more than an inch of snow in any sensible car like a focus, vectra, corsa, whatever i've driven in the snow which was a sensible hatchback.

Even the m3 wasn't that bad in the snow, couldn't get off the drive in deeper than an inch of snow once or twice. The 350z is a little bit worse, but would no doubt be better on tyres like michelins. The m3 was pretty good on track on the ps2s and most of the time ok in winter in reasonably deep snow which you could forget the 350z working in, regardless of tyre.

On a track, on a bright sunshiney day, track tyres. On the road in most conditions, summer tyres to deal with a bit of rain. Cambridge, isn't sweden.

The very reason a lot of these manufacturers offer these packages, is they're german and last time I checked, their climate differs from ours in many places, they also have different road laws.

Maybe you can explain how they can make a rubber compound so that it works well in all scenarios? I'd have thought if anything, the time you'd want all season tyres would be crossing areas which have different weather conditions.


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## RisingPower (Sep 21, 2007)

Shaun said:


> Either of you continue from this point and i will lock it.
> 
> The whole topic has been done to death on numerous occasions anyway.


That's what DW is about though  People who are unwilling to accept each others opinions and trying to enforce their views upon others.

Told you you shouldn't have got the golf r


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## RisingPower (Sep 21, 2007)

dubstyle said:


> For me winter tyres in certain conditions have been night and day compared to summer low profile tyres.
> 
> When it does snow the winter tyres made it so I could drive the m3 every day and not have to think whether I would get stuck. You sill have to drive sensibly no driving round a corner in the snow at 30mph.
> 
> ...


You can get stuck though still no? Iirc in the zed even in snow, it was the clearance which became an issue, maybe the m3 not so much, don't remember how much higher it was, a little at least.


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## Cookies (Dec 10, 2008)

Shaun said:


> The whole topic has been done to death on numerous occasions anyway.


Sorry Shaun. Noted.

Cooks


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## 182_Blue (Oct 25, 2005)

Cookies said:


> Sorry Shaun. Noted.
> 
> Cooks


Sorry it wasn't really aimed at you more the inevitable replies that winter tyre threads attracts.

For what it's worth I think that winter tyres are a good thing, they make the car handle worse but in ice and snow etc it got my old car (i dont currently have winter tyres) up a hill near my house that I couldn't get up in the same car with summer tyres on, it also allowed me to avoid a accident, plus in wet cold weather it helped with traction away from the lights.


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## Nanoman (Jan 17, 2009)

Shaun said:


> plus in wet cold weather it helped with traction away from the lights.


That's something I haven't previously mentioned. Running rings around the wheel spinning boy racers and hot hatches in a knackered old rusty, bashed 4x4 is quite fun too!


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## spursfan (Aug 4, 2009)

Nanoman said:


> That's something I haven't previously mentioned. Running rings around the wheel spinning boy racers and hot hatches in a knackered old rusty, bashed 4x4 is quite fun too!


But with careful clutch control

Kev


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## szladob (Jun 5, 2013)

RisingPower said:


> The very reason a lot of these manufacturers offer these packages, is they're german and last time I checked, their climate differs from ours in many places, they also have different road laws.


That isn't quite true, as all the European tyre manufacturers offer high quality all season tyres for the US market.. but maybe the south UK market is not big enough to be bothered (to get those tyres through the European legislation... ) Michelin, Pirelli etc do manufacture those tyres over the pond though, so that is another issue perhaps why they are not available. Still intriguing though that why wouldn't they allow us in the UK to have access to those. You would think in a free market world...


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## RisingPower (Sep 21, 2007)

szladob said:


> That isn't quite true, as all the European tyre manufacturers offer high quality all season tyres for the US market.. but maybe the south UK market is not big enough to be bothered (to get those tyres through the European legislation... ) Michelin, Pirelli etc do manufacture those tyres over the pond though, so that is another issue perhaps why they are not available. Still intriguing though that why wouldn't they allow us in the UK to have access to those. You would think in a free market world...


What are you on about? Is porsche not german?


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## SBM (Jul 4, 2013)

I have friends who live in Norway, and its law there that winter tyres go on on a set date and stay on until whatever date they are allowed to come off. In short all cars have 2 sets of wheels. They swap them on the date required. We travel there 3 or 4 times a year and have been in their car in the usual ice and snow that here, brings us to a standstill. I was so impressed with the difference winter tyres made, it was like the snow was not there! This winter I have put a set on the Juke just this weekend we traveled over to York lots of snow on the M62 and the tyres came into their own. Nice for our car to go sailing passed a GTR gingerly crawling in inside lane! Its also a good opportunity to get a new set of alloys this spring with summer tyres on :thumb::thumb:

I appreciate its a cost (£400) fitted this winter, but they will last I suspect, at least another 4 winters, and that for most of us the snow and ice on the road is still in the minority of winter days, but my wife feels happier and safer in the car and after experiencing first hand the HUGE difference they make, I will always have winter tyres now..

Ben


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## millns84 (Jul 5, 2009)

FWIT winter tyres up in Norway are different than what we have here - Our winter tyres are referred to as all season tyres up there. The compounds are made to withstand even more severe weather (which I can understand) and wouldn't cope that well in the UK.


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## ffrs1444 (Jun 7, 2008)

millns84 said:


> FWIT winter tyres up in Norway are different than what we have here - Our winter tyres are referred to as all season tyres up there. The compounds are made to withstand even more severe weather (which I can understand) and wouldn't cope that well in the UK.


Most winter tyres come from outside uk , Mine came from Germany via mytyres.co.uk


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## szladob (Jun 5, 2013)

RisingPower said:


> What are you on about? Is porsche not german?


Sorry, I though you were talking about tyre manufacturers...


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## millns84 (Jul 5, 2009)

ffrs1444 said:


> Most winter tyres come from outside uk , Mine came from Germany via mytyres.co.uk


Mine too - Dunlops made in Germany.

Manufacturers have specific tyres for Scandanvian winters though, different compound and tread etc. There was a test on Tyre Reviews a while back which showed that while they're amazing on snow/ice, performance in the UK climate is considerably worse due to generally higher temperatures in winter.


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## Nanoman (Jan 17, 2009)

We've had 3-4 inches of snow here but, like when we had snow 2 weeks ago, we left the car with summer tyres in the drive and have been using the car with winter tyres with no problem on the un-gritted & un-ploughed roads around here. 

I reversed the car with summer tyres on out the driveway tonight and immediately started sliding sideways (we live on a reasonable steep hill which is perpendicular to the driveway). Needless to say I've just been on ebay and bought a second hand set of genuine rims as well as manufacturer approved ContiWinterContact TS 830Ps.


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## Cookies (Dec 10, 2008)

Both our cars managed to get out and up our hill yesterday while the neighbours, one who was in a VW tiguan 4x4, were unable to even get past the end of our driveway. 

I'm happy I have them and was able to get to work without bother.


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## Steve (Mar 18, 2014)

Cookies said:


> Both our cars managed to get out and up our hill yesterday while the neighbours, one who was in a VW tiguan 4x4, were unable to even get past the end of our driveway.
> 
> I'm happy I have them and was able to get to work without bother.


Driver error ! :wall:


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## Cookies (Dec 10, 2008)

Steve said:


> Driver error ! :wall:


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## Steve (Mar 18, 2014)

Cookies said:


>


Tiguans are not that bad. I've had one in a few sticky situations .

In saying that if they have DSG then they might struggle.


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## dubstyle (Jun 13, 2007)

I run tyres from nokian which are damn good at making winter tyres. I wouldn't even attempt to go in deep snow on my 19 inch summer tyres like i did last night. I've been happy with them for a good few year, the amount of people leaving theirs car yesterday was mad.


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## Nanoman (Jan 17, 2009)

Steve said:


> Driver error ! :wall:


Possibly or possibly simple GCSE Physics and it could only get up with winter rubber.


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

I've missed all the snow again! 

I'll be down Edinburgh and Glasgow this weekend and I might get the leftovers. 

I'm finding my winter tyres very poor on roads that have been gritted then get wet. They really struggle in those conditions.


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## EliteCarCare (Aug 25, 2006)

Having 4wd doesn't necessarily mean you'll have much better traction in the snow, winter tyres are a must in my opinion having used them for the last 5 years, not only for traction but for stopping. As soon as it hits 7 degrees or below we swap ours over. :thumb:

Alex


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## Welshquattro1 (Dec 6, 2013)

EliteCarCare said:


> Having 4wd doesn't necessarily mean you'll have much better traction in the snow, winter tyres are a must in my opinion having used them for the last 5 years, not only for traction but for stopping. As soon as it hits 7 degrees or below we swap ours over. :thumb:
> 
> Alex


I argee! I have (surprise,surprise) a Audi A4 quattro which with summer tyres on is useless in the snow and the underside is completely covered in plastic for aerodynamic's which in deepish snow makes the car into a giant sledge! Winter tyres are a must with or without 4wd.


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## Nanoman (Jan 17, 2009)

Kerr said:


> I've missed all the snow again!
> 
> I'll be down Edinburgh and Glasgow this weekend and I might get the leftovers.
> 
> I'm finding my winter tyres very poor on roads that have been gritted then get wet. They really struggle in those conditions.


What tyres are you running? Do you want to come to mine and we'll do a head to head v's the Wintrac Xtremes, summer tyres and your tyres? 

Plenty un-gritted, un-ploughed, hilly roads here along with the slushy and wet gritted roads. We've got he whole range of roads here (except warm/dry!)



EliteCarCare said:


> Having 4wd doesn't necessarily mean you'll have much better traction in the snow, winter tyres are a must in my opinion having used them for the last 5 years, not only for traction but for stopping. As soon as it hits 7 degrees or below we swap ours over. :thumb:
> 
> Alex


Uhm. Technically 4WD gives you exactly twice the traction than 2WD does it not?

It's just bugger all traction multiplied by two is still bugger all traction. I'm quite interested to see how 4WD with winters will compare to RWD with winters. I'll post results once mine other set arrive albeit on different cars and different brand tyres but it'll still be interesting.



Welshquattro1 said:


> I argee! I have (surprise,surprise) a Audi A4 quattro which with summer tyres on is useless in the snow and the underside is completely covered in plastic for aerodynamic's which in deepish snow makes the car into a giant sledge! Winter tyres are a must with or without 4wd.


If it's a giant sledge with summers it'll still be a giant sledge with winters will it not?


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

Nanoman said:


> What tyres are you running? Do you want to come to mine and we'll do a head to head v's the Wintrac Xtremes, summer tyres and your tyres?
> 
> Plenty un-gritted, un-ploughed, hilly roads here along with the slushy and wet gritted roads. We've got he whole range of roads here (except warm/dry!)
> 
> ...


I've got the same tyres as you. I'm running on 19" rims on a staggered wheel setup.

I got a quick shot in shallow snow in Glasgow 2 weeks ago and so far this winter there has been one snow shower in Aberdeen. The snow wasn't even 0.5" deep.

I live at the top of a hill when in Aberdeen and the access roads are never treated. The conditions I've seen so far haven't been a challenge and I've done it in much worse conditions before.

In normal driving the tyres seem fine. They clearly feel softer and spongier, but that is to be expected. Grip levels are down by a margin to my summer tyres. As I said earlier I don't buy this 7° cut off point, but my Goodyears are certainly better on most roads I've encountered to far this winter.

It's the greasy roads that really gets them. The half dissolved salt on the road and the tyres struggle. Again last night heading out to Inverurie the car is short on grip coming off the roundabouts. I've never had a car struggle like these tyres do and the car slides more than most people would be comfortable with.

I've not yet had conditions to see how good they are in the snow, so I cant really answer that as yet. I do hope we get a right dump of snow so I can get a good shot of them.

So far this winter I've not had to face any conditions that summers tyres wouldn't have dealt with safety and ease. Been very lucky again this year........So far.

We've only had two days of snow in the last 3 maybe even 4 winters. The first winter I had the BMW it was bad, but since then we've managed to miss nearly everything.

A car with 4wd had more traction due to all four wheels driving. Like for like tyres the 4wd would always win a battle for traction.

Traction and grip aren't quite the same. Maybe the 4wd car will get going better, but it'll still take as long to stop and still not go around a corner faster.


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## Nanoman (Jan 17, 2009)

Ooooft 19" rims? I'm running 16s with 65mm sidewalls so a wee bit different. I've bought 16s for the Merc too with 55mm sidewalls on TS830Ps. (Mainly because I'm tight but also because my understanding is that Winter Tyres perform better with higher sidewalls). 

As I've said before the difference between my all season Conti4x4Contacts and the Wintrac Xtremes was night and day on wet, greasy roads as well as snow/slush/ice. 

I'm hoping the difference on the Merc will be similar. 

As for the last sentence I still say that winter tyres take less time to stop and will allow you to take a corner faster than the same car on summer tyres but we can agree to disagree on that one.:thumb:


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

Afraid so. 235/35x19" on the front and 265/30×19" on the back. 

I had quite a few important trips I had to make this winter and my rear tyres were well worn, so I decided to try winters. 

I did think about buying smaller wheels and tyres, but I was looking towards second hand wheels and new tyres as I wouldn't buy used tyres. Only a couple of decent sets of wheels came up, but add the cost of the wheels to the tyres and it was a decent sum of money. 

Oponeo were doing the Vredestein tyres for just over £600 and I thought I'd take a punt. Had them on for probably around 2500 miles so far so they are worn in. 

If it was a harsh winter I might be sitting here thinking thank god I got them, but I've just not needed them quite yet. Still got a few months to go though.


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## Bero (Mar 9, 2008)

After 6 years of driving an Impreza on winter tyres during the darker months i'm now in a C63 with 19" wheels and with just summer tyres...interesting to say the least!

As most sensible people on here agree...winter tyres make a colossal difference. You cant argue against the physics, regardless of what kind of Uber driver (you think) you are!



Kerr said:


> Again last night heading out to Inverurie the car is short on grip coming off the roundabouts. I've never had a car struggle like these tyres do and the car slides more than most people would be comfortable with......
> 
> ......235/35x19" on the front and 265/30×19" on the back.


The roads around were unusually greasy last night.....I the car was....eerrmm....'unsettled' a few times last night.

Is it an M3? My rear tyres are only 255/30x19.


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

Bero said:


> After 6 years of driving an Impreza on winter tyres during the darker months i'm now in a C63 with 19" wheels and with just summer tyres...interesting to say the least!
> 
> As most sensible people on here agree...winter tyres make a colossal difference. You cant argue against the physics, regardless of what kind of Uber driver (you think) you are!
> 
> ...


It's a 335i I have. 255mm is the normal width, but they are often more expensive and there wasn't many matching sets of tyres available when I ordered. I didn't have much of a choice.

Many guys with BMWs do step up 10mm on all their tyres.


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## RisingPower (Sep 21, 2007)

dubstyle said:


> I run tyres from nokian which are damn good at making winter tyres. I wouldn't even attempt to go in deep snow on my 19 inch summer tyres like i did last night. I've been happy with them for a good few year, the amount of people leaving theirs car yesterday was mad.


Found the m3 just fine in similar conditions on vreds.

Do people really get scared of even sliding a tiny bit in winter?


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## dubstyle (Jun 13, 2007)

RisingPower said:


> Found the m3 just fine in similar conditions on vreds.
> 
> Do people really get scared of even sliding a tiny bit in winter?


M3 on winters can go pretty much anywhere, the main issue i found is the front bumper becoming a snowplow in deep snow.

People did seem to freal out yesterday when it snowed really heavy up here.


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## RisingPower (Sep 21, 2007)

dubstyle said:


> M3 on winters can go pretty much anywhere, the main issue i found is the front bumper becoming a snowplow in deep snow.
> 
> People did seem to freal out yesterday when it snowed really heavy up here.


Exactly. Winters don't help you with that, even less so with the zed. Not so good when the deep snow freezes into a block.

I found the m3 fine on summer tyres though, only recall having a couple of days it was an issue. Was actually fun sliding into a parking spot on a hill sideways


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

RisingPower said:


> Found the m3 just fine in similar conditions on vreds.
> 
> Do people really get scared of even sliding a tiny bit in winter?


Most people get scared when the car moves at all. it's not a natural thing to deal with for many.



RisingPower said:


> Was actually fun sliding into a parking spot on a hill sideways


So you can't park right in the summer with a clear road, but fine in the snow?

Is that just because you can't measure bad parking as you can't see the lines in the snow?:lol:


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## RisingPower (Sep 21, 2007)

Kerr said:


> Most people get scared when the car moves at all. it's not a natural thing to deal with for many.
> 
> So you can't park right in the summer with a clear road, but fine in the snow?
> 
> Is that just because you can't measure bad parking as you can't see the lines in the snow?:lol:


They're fricking wimps then.

Can park just fine in the summer 

Nope, was within the lines but couldn't drive straight in, so had to slide across into the space (could only see the lines after i'd slid across them)


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## Nanoman (Jan 17, 2009)

So I'll freely admit to ****ting myself when the Merc started to slide even a little bit yesterday. Funnily enough sitting in 1.5 tons of car worth £27k of your hard earned cash half way up a steep, ice-covered hill with high kerbs while it starts to slide sideways makes me very uncomfortable and I'd pay a hefty premium to avoid such a thing.

Here's a pic to give you an idea what I mean.









How do the driving Gods in this thread cope with such a situation?

(The other car on winter tyres has no problem on this hill and pulls away no problem if you're gentle and with a bit of wheelspin if you're rough.)


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## RisingPower (Sep 21, 2007)

Nanoman said:


> So I'll freely admit to ****ting myself when the Merc started to slide even a little bit yesterday. Funnily enough sitting in 1.5 tons of car worth £27k of your hard earned cash half way up a steep, ice-covered hill with high kerbs while it starts to slide sideways makes me very uncomfortable and I'd pay a hefty premium to avoid such a thing.
> 
> Here's a pic to give you an idea what I mean.
> 
> ...


Hang on a minute, you were fully sideways in the middle of the road?


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## Nanoman (Jan 17, 2009)

RisingPower said:


> Hang on a minute, you were fully sideways in the middle of the road?


Yep, I'd just reversed out of my drive. Due to other cars parked I have to come straight out then turn up or down the hill.


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## RisingPower (Sep 21, 2007)

Nanoman said:


> Yep, I'd just reversed out of my drive. Due to other cars parked I have to come straight out then turn up or down the hill.


Ahhh you hadn't got that sideways from going parallel. So you mean, slide downwards and parallel?

I'd have applied a bit more power and lock to get it level.

There's also such a thing as insurance and you also have to notify them still as i'm aware.


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## Nanoman (Jan 17, 2009)

RisingPower said:


> Ahhh you hadn't got that sideways from going parallel. So you mean, slide downwards and parallel?
> 
> I'd have applied a bit more power and lock to get it level.
> 
> There's also such a thing as insurance and you also have to notify them still as i'm aware.


...and possibly rip the front bumper off on the high kerb in front. In reality I put it in drive (I'd just stopped, had my foot on the brake and was stationary changing from Reverse to Drive when it started to slide sideways) turned the steering to point down the hill and it gripped fairly quickly.

I'm more than happy to pay the very small premium for winter rubber to minimize the risk of this ever happening. The true cost of winter rubber is less than the cost of one scuffed alloy and certainly less than my excess.

Not sure what I have to notify my insurance of. Thankfully slide stopped before it went too far and I don't have to inform your insurer I'm using winter tyres under ABI rules. Only eCar, Southern Rock, Swiftcover and Sheilas wheels need to be notified but no insurer will change the premium.


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## spursfan (Aug 4, 2009)

RisingPower said:


> Ahhh you hadn't got that sideways from going parallel. So you mean, slide downwards and parallel?
> 
> I'd have applied a bit more power and lock to get it level.
> 
> There's also such a thing as insurance and you also have to notify them still as i'm aware.


You referring to the winter tyres?
Only 3 firms require a call, e cars, swift cover and southern rock.
https://www.abi.org.uk/Insurance-and-savings/Products/Motor-insurance/Winter-tyres

didn't see Sheila's wheels


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## RisingPower (Sep 21, 2007)

spursfan said:


> You referring to the winter tyres?
> Only 3 firms require a call, e cars, swift cover and southern rock.
> https://www.abi.org.uk/Insurance-and-savings/Products/Motor-insurance/Winter-tyres
> 
> didn't see Sheila's wheels


Ahh may well be possible since I last looked but I thought it was classed as a modification.


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## RisingPower (Sep 21, 2007)

Nanoman said:


> ...and possibly rip the front bumper off on the high kerb in front. In reality I put it in drive (I'd just stopped, had my foot on the brake and was stationary changing from Reverse to Drive when it started to slide sideways) turned the steering to point down the hill and it gripped fairly quickly.
> 
> I'm more than happy to pay the very small premium for winter rubber to minimize the risk of this ever happening. The true cost of winter rubber is less than the cost of one scuffed alloy and certainly less than my excess.
> 
> Not sure what I have to notify my insurance of. Thankfully slide stopped before it went too far and I don't have to inform your insurer I'm using winter tyres under ABI rules. Only eCar, Southern Rock, Swiftcover and Sheilas wheels need to be notified but no insurer will change the premium.


I'm trying to see how if you get the back end to swing round and the front end is already off the kerb how what you said would happen.


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## MDC250 (Jan 4, 2014)

spursfan said:


> You referring to the winter tyres?
> 
> Only 3 firms require a call, e cars, swift cover and southern rock.
> 
> ...


Need to be careful tyres on the whole no, wheels and tyres I'd say they would want to know.

I don't trust insurers one bit, I called to notify of my wheel and tyre swap over and followed up with an E-mail. No arguments then.


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

spursfan said:


> You referring to the winter tyres?
> Only 3 firms require a call, e cars, swift cover and southern rock.
> https://www.abi.org.uk/Insurance-and-savings/Products/Motor-insurance/Winter-tyres
> 
> didn't see Sheila's wheels


What I will point out is, you still need to be very careful.

Many of the winter tyres have lower speed ratings than your summer tyres that are standard fit. Also people drop tyre sizes for winter tyres.

If your tyres don't have the correct speed rating or are not a manufacturer's recommended size, your insurance company will have an issue.

You might only drive at 70mph well within the capability of all the tyres, but that isn't good enough.

Just be careful to cover your backside.


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## Nanoman (Jan 17, 2009)

RisingPower said:


> I'm trying to see how if you get the back end to swing round and the front end is already off the kerb how what you said would happen.


To be fair due to the ice my neighbour couldn't use his drive so he was parked in a bit of an awkward place for me. I needed to go straight back, then forward and down to the left a little, then back up to the right, then I could turn down the hill. I knew there was no point in even trying to go up the hill in one move!










Good advice from the others regarding staying within the rules. I've got genuine Merc rims which are the exact same spec as the recommended 16" winter rims according to the brochure i.e. diameter, width, offset with the exact tyre size they should have and the Mercedes Original equipment stamped tyres.


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## RisingPower (Sep 21, 2007)

Nanoman said:


> To be fair due to the ice my neighbour couldn't use his drive so he was parked in a bit of an awkward place for me. I needed to go straight back, then forward and down to the left a little, then back up to the right, then I could turn down the hill. I knew there was no point in even trying to go up the hill in one move!


I'm just really confused now


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## spursfan (Aug 4, 2009)

Kerr said:


> What I will point out is, you still need to be very careful.
> 
> Many of the winter tyres have lower speed ratings than your summer tyres that are standard fit. Also people drop tyre sizes for winter tyres.
> 
> ...


you are correct there, as long as they match the tyre specs in the cars handbook, you are okay.
I have T ratings on my winters, I think that covers 110mph, well above the legal speed limit, so again, they are okay.
The wheels are steel rims, not great looking but again they are in the handbook, so pretty sure there will be no issue.
I do think that the insurance companies are trying it on a bit, common sense tells you they are safer in cold weather, maybe they should drop the premiums when they are fitted!!


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## Nanoman (Jan 17, 2009)

RisingPower said:


> I'm just really confused now


Reverse out the drive, forward a bit, back a bit then down the hill.

I did the first bit then before I could go forward a bit it started sliding sideways down the hill. If I apply 'a bit more power' (either forward, or reverse) there's every chance I'll hit a kerb in front or behind. The point I'm trying to prove is that with winter tyres on that car too it would have behaved just like my car on winters i.e. it wouldn't have slid sideways and I'd have had no problem maneuvering.


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## Bero (Mar 9, 2008)

Kerr said:


> What I will point out is, you still need to be very careful.
> 
> Many of the winter tyres have lower speed ratings than your summer tyres that are standard fit. Also people drop tyre sizes for winter tyres.
> 
> ...


Prove it! Any case of a claim being rejected or reduced will suffice :thumb:

When you say 'WILL have an issue' means all companies, all of the time. That's definitely not the case, in fact winter tyres are 100% allowed to be fitted to a car than can exceed their speed rating.

Although I agree with your sentiment that you should cover you behind.


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

Bero said:


> Prove it! Any case of a claim being rejected or reduced will suffice :thumb:
> 
> When you say 'WILL have an issue' means all companies, all of the time. That's definitely not the case, in fact winter tyres are 100% allowed to be fitted to a car than can exceed their speed rating.
> 
> Although I agree with your sentiment that you should cover you behind.


It has only be recent times that insurance companies have permitted the fitting of winter tyres without notification. Many used to get their pants in a twist over it.

I highly doubt they've now got very relaxed to allow cars to run any tyre now.

The insurance companies that permit winter tyres specifically mention the tyres have to be to manufacturer's standard. The wrong speed rating fails that.

I have in the past read about people not getting their insurance claims settled due to speed rating and wrong tyres.

Maybe all won't, but it's a very basic thing you really need to cover yourself with. Why take the risk?


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## Nanoman (Jan 17, 2009)

The ABI list only has a few that specify they must be as Kerr says. I was surprised by this but I guess it's not the same thing as saying "fit whatever wheels and tyres you like if they're winter tyres".

See here...
https://www.abi.org.uk/~/media/File...nter tyres The motor insurance commitment.pdf

Although if I was fitting tyres which weren't an approved size I'd check with my insurer. On the 14 plate Merc I went for Mercedes Original equipment tyres as well as the correct size. On the x-trail I just went for the recommended size.

Edit:



> As can be seen, often motor insurers will not charge an additional premium when their
> insured customers use winter tyres, provided that they meet, and are fitted in accordance
> with, the vehicle manufacturers' specifications and are in a roadworthy condition.


And a few say this...



> No, provided the winter tyres/wheels fitted are of no greater size value than the tyres/wheels being replaced


in response to


> Does the fitting of winter tyres affect the amount of cover provided to customers?


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