# New car help? Big TDi engine



## JamesnDaz (Feb 27, 2007)

Hi all,

I currently have a 2005 Audi a4 1.9tdi it's approaching that time to sell on before it becomes worthless! 

Now I drive about 15k a year 80% motorway and it's about time I had a car with a bit of power for when I drive home at 3am 

I'm wanting 4wd it's a must for where I live (snow) and also better power to the ground!!

I think with that option it only really leaves me with the Audi Quattro range with 3.0ltr TDi lump! Possibly A4 or A5

Can anyone recommend out else ? Won't be interested in brands like ford,vauxhall,Kia etc

Budget is approx £13,000


Thanks
James


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## RisingPower (Sep 21, 2007)

Is it really worth buying a diesel?

I also didn't think audi were particularly well known for being stunning in snow.

Have you ruled out subarus and jeeps also?


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## JamesnDaz (Feb 27, 2007)

Certainly ruled out subarus! I'm only 27 don't think I could have a jeep just yet!!! 

What do you mean about diesel ? A big powered petrol would kill the bank balance ?? 
James


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## Kriminal (Jan 11, 2007)

RisingPower said:


> Is it really worth buying a diesel?
> 
> I also didn't think audi were particularly well known for being stunning in snow.
> 
> Have you ruled out subarus and jeeps also?


Audi's are fine in the snow - both of mine were, and I never even had to change the tyres over in the winter.


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## RisingPower (Sep 21, 2007)

Kriminal said:


> Audi's are fine in the snow - both of mine were, and I never even had to change the tyres over in the winter.


Well i'll just put it down to crap drivers then 

Do any of them apart from the q7 have that much clearance in snow?


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## RisingPower (Sep 21, 2007)

JamesnDaz said:


> Certainly ruled out subarus! I'm only 27 don't think I could have a jeep just yet!!!
> 
> What do you mean about diesel ? A big powered petrol would kill the bank balance ??
> James


Well the silly side of me was thinking the jeep srt8, the sensible the jeep crd.

To be fair, i'm 28 and I think the audi a5/a4 is a bit of an older/middle age drivers car, especially the allroad.


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## Kriminal (Jan 11, 2007)

RisingPower said:


> Well i'll just put it down to crap drivers then
> 
> Do any of them apart from the q7 have that much clearance in snow?


I had plenty of clearance in the A3 - and that was the S-Line version (so a tad lower than the norm). Even the TT had enough clearance.

Nine times out of Ten it will be the driver that's the problem :thumb:


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## RisingPower (Sep 21, 2007)

Kriminal said:


> I had plenty of clearance in the A3 - and that was the S-Line version (so a tad lower than the norm). Even the TT had enough clearance.
> 
> Nine times out of Ten it will be the driver that's the problem :thumb:


I'm talking like the clearance a forester offers, not an average hatch, I figured with the mention of snow.....

No doubt, but audis don't generally seem to have the capabilities of softroaders or proper offroaders from what i've seen.


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## Horatio (Oct 30, 2011)

:thumb: Mazda 3 MPS...:car:


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

Horatio said:


> :thumb: Mazda 3 MPS...:car:


He asked for 4wd.


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

JamesnDaz said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I currently have a 2005 Audi a4 1.9tdi it's approaching that time to sell on before it becomes worthless!
> 
> ...


How often do you get stuck in the FWD Audi? Have you tried snow tyres when needed?

4 wheel drive does help in certain circumstances. The other 95% of times it is no more than a drain on power and economy.


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## JamesnDaz (Feb 27, 2007)

I live in the Pennines so quite a few inclines etc there is a short steep incline to get out of my drive and been stuck a few times ha


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## Tank. (Dec 26, 2011)

At the age of 27 I'm quite keen on the idea of an Audi a4 avant 3.0 tdi after the promise of dad buying me a car on his retirement.
I've been doing some reading up on them and joined the audi forum, seems the perfect balance between the performance of a big engine and a V6 with the economy of a diesel

The only concern is the common issue of failure of the swirl flaps on the inlet manifolds which can potentially be expensive if repairing properly although there are alternatives which are cheaper. Folk quoting £1000 for 2 inlet manifolds from Audi plus labour.


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## RisingPower (Sep 21, 2007)

JamesnDaz said:


> I live in the Pennines so quite a few inclines etc there is a short steep incline to get out of my drive and been stuck a few times ha


In the penines i'd have thought you'd be after a proper offroader and have good reason too.


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## SteveTDCi (Feb 8, 2006)

My a3 was crap in the snow


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

Tank. said:


> At the age of 27 I'm quite keen on the idea of an Audi a4 avant 3.0 tdi after the promise of dad buying me a car on his retirement.
> I've been doing some reading up on them and joined the audi forum, seems the perfect balance between the performance of a big engine and a V6 with the economy of a diesel
> 
> The only concern is the common issue of failure of the swirl flaps on the inlet manifolds which can potentially be expensive if repairing properly although there are alternatives which are cheaper. Folk quoting £1000 for 2 inlet manifolds from Audi plus labour.


Economy isn't good though. You are likely to only see around mid 30s, maybe later 30s MPG. Not really the economy you want to see from a diesel.

It isn't that fast either.

The BMW 335d will tear it to parts with ease, although you won't get 4WD.


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## RisingPower (Sep 21, 2007)

I totally bet this would be a money pit and it is quite old, but still...

http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classif...chad/used,nearlynew,new/radius/1500?logcode=p


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## Tank. (Dec 26, 2011)

A big thing for me as well was the sound of the V6 so thats the one I'm set on.

I know the economy isn't great but substantially better than the petrol equivalent is what i mean.


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## RisingPower (Sep 21, 2007)

Tank. said:


> A big thing for me as well was the sound of the V6 so thats the one I'm set on.
> 
> I know the economy isn't great but substantially better than the petrol equivalent is what i mean.


What about a diesel v6 sounds good? It's a little strange to buy a diesel for the way it sounds, at least to me.


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## Tank. (Dec 26, 2011)

this one took my attention when browsing

http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/audi/a4/audi-a4-3-0-tdi-quattro-s-line-5dr/1720551


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

Tank. said:


> A big thing for me as well was the sound of the V6 so thats the one I'm set on.
> 
> I know the economy isn't great but substantially better than the petrol equivalent is what i mean.


Still doesn't make any real sense though. You can get a far superior 6 cylinder petrol that won't be significantly worse on petrol, and will be far more of a car.

Reading Whatcar and they kind of sum up my feelings.

At mid 30s MPG the car becomes pointless in my opinion. It neither offers diesel economy, or petrol performance. You are making a compromised move both ways.


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## Tank. (Dec 26, 2011)

RisingPower said:


> What about a diesel v6 sounds good? It's a little strange to buy a diesel for the way it sounds, at least to me.


sounds nice, no?


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

Tank. said:


> this one took my attention when browsing
> 
> http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/audi/a4/audi-a4-3-0-tdi-quattro-s-line-5dr/1720551


That'll only be 200bhp surely? They say 245BHP but that's the newer models before you get that power.

I guess that's remapped?


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## Tank. (Dec 26, 2011)

there were two variants of that age 180 or 233, although information there is wrong anyway as it says its a 4cyl


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## SteveyG (Apr 1, 2007)

JamesnDaz said:


> Won't be interested in brands like ford,vauxhall,Kia etc
> 
> Budget is approx £13,000
> 
> ...


You should add your thoughts:

http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=322543


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

Tank. said:


> sounds nice, no?


That's not bad actually. He doesn't seem to give it the full beans though.

A few of the diesels that I've seen with a performance exhaust start whistling when giving it the beans.

Surprised that a Milltek exhaust is that loud. They are normally on the reserved side. It will also likely cost a few quid too?


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

Tank. said:


> there were two variants of that age 180 or 233, although information there is wrong anyway as it says its a 4cyl


According to Parkers, the 229bhp version didn't come out until 2006. They have a 201BHP listed.


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## Tank. (Dec 26, 2011)

Kerr said:


> That's not bad actually. He doesn't seem to give it the full beans though.
> 
> A few of the diesels that I've seen with a performance exhaust start whistling when giving it the beans.
> 
> Surprised that a Milltek exhaust is that loud. They are normally on the reserved side. It will also likely cost a few quid too?


yea thats a decat with dpf removed as well, sure i could get a custom exhaust that could almost replicate the sound

or i could forget about silly diesels and go for an older S4 instead but at an average of 25mpg its putting me off a bit and whether i could control my right foot


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

Tank. said:


> yea thats a decat with dpf removed as well, sure i could get a custom exhaust that could almost replicate the sound
> 
> or i could forget about silly diesels and go for an older S4 instead but at an average of 25mpg its putting me off a bit and whether i could control my right foot


Don't think that for one second. The amount of issues I have had, and others too, with custom exhaust sounds, would put me off them again. Even ignoring the sounds, most are nowhere near as good or gain any performance unlike a properly designed exhaust.

Obviously with a decat and the DPF removed, it's going to cause a lot of issues come MOT times and leave a horrible reek behind it.

Again, why only an Audi?

Obviously I'm not an Audi fan, but they really aren't all that. Especially if the driving aspect is important.


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## Tank. (Dec 26, 2011)

maybe goes back to badge snobbery but i just like the whole audi thing

ive not got a huge ammount of cash, enough in savings to pay for repairs if need be but when it comes to choice of vehicle it needs to be something fun but something i can afford to run. 

I'm a lorry driver by day stuck to 56 most of my time,i have a family so i want something quick yet practical and classy, powerful but economical, with a nice exhaust tone,i like the idea of 4x4 think i'd prefer that to rwd so audi ticks all those boxes for me :shrug:


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## RisingPower (Sep 21, 2007)

Tank. said:


> sounds nice, no?


Not to me, no. There's no confusing that with a petrol v6.

Not to mention I don't like miltek exhausts and decats generally either.


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## Tank. (Dec 26, 2011)

RisingPower said:


> Not to me, no. There's no confusing that with a petrol v6.
> 
> Not to mention I don't like miltek exhausts and decats generally either.


oh well each to their own


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## RisingPower (Sep 21, 2007)

Kerr said:


> That's not bad actually. He doesn't seem to give it the full beans though.
> 
> A few of the diesels that I've seen with a performance exhaust start whistling when giving it the beans.
> 
> Surprised that a Milltek exhaust is that loud. They are normally on the reserved side. It will also likely cost a few quid too?


The reason it sounds loud and the rasp is the decats.


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## RisingPower (Sep 21, 2007)

Tank. said:


> oh well each to their own


Petrol v6.


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## Tank. (Dec 26, 2011)

call me sad but i think that just sounds antisocial, for the public highways anyway


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## RisingPower (Sep 21, 2007)

Tank. said:


> call me sad but i think that just sounds antisocial, for the public highways anyway


Urr... You are sad 

Decats are hardly social either I may point out.


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## Tank. (Dec 26, 2011)

RisingPower said:


> Urr... You are sad
> 
> Decats are hardly social either I may point out.


well that decat audi wasnt exactly antisocially noisy though,

i like something thatll purr away down the revs and make noise when you give it beans


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## RisingPower (Sep 21, 2007)

Tank. said:


> well that decat audi wasnt exactly antisocially noisy though,
> 
> i like something thatll purr away down the revs and make noise when you give it beans


It's not just the noise, it's what comes out the back :thumb:

Diesels, are quiet, they really don't make noise, certainly not a good noise imho.


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## Tank. (Dec 26, 2011)

theyre not that smokey are they? ive not experienced a decat diesel yet


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## Pignut71 (Mar 12, 2013)

Reading the thread, I think you've already made your mind up and it's going to be a v6 Audi. However, you asked for suggestions so what about an older x5. I've not owned one but Im told they are good to drive etc. At least it's a badge that might be acceptable?


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## RisingPower (Sep 21, 2007)

Tank. said:


> theyre not that smokey are they? ive not experienced a decat diesel yet


Even a petrol, you smell something like unburnt fuel with something else i couldn't put a finger on with even high flow cats, let alone decats.

It's not a brilliant smell with petrols, but with diesel? Yeuch.


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## Tank. (Dec 26, 2011)

surely a remap would reduce crap coming out the back?


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## SteveTDCi (Feb 8, 2006)

Audi do a 4.2 tdi v8, still powered by the wrong fuel though


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## Ross (Apr 25, 2007)

Legacy Diesel,simplest AWD system and most effective.


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## RisingPower (Sep 21, 2007)

Tank. said:


> surely a remap would reduce crap coming out the back?


Not entirely sure, I'd have thought increasing compression would mean far more crap out the back.

You don't put on decats and change the exhaust to be sociable.


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## SteveTDCi (Feb 8, 2006)

Rp's is right, more power = more smoke


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## Tank. (Dec 26, 2011)

RisingPower said:


> Not entirely sure, I'd have thought increasing compression would mean far more crap out the back.
> 
> You don't put on decats and change the exhaust to be sociable.


fair point! i just dont see it the same as a chavvy boy racer that decats his 1.2 corsa purely to make more noise and to make it "pop and bang"
but i suppose youre right


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

Tank. said:


> fair point! i just dont see it the same as a chavvy boy racer that decats his 1.2 corsa purely to make more noise and to make it "pop and bang"
> but i suppose youre right


I see it as someone that want to choke everyone when they do it to a diesel.

Diesel is filthy. Hence why we have all these DPFs that a murder to live with.


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## RisingPower (Sep 21, 2007)

Tank. said:


> fair point! i just dont see it the same as a chavvy boy racer that decats his 1.2 corsa purely to make more noise and to make it "pop and bang"
> but i suppose youre right


As kerr said, they may be antisocial noise wise but at least you're not breathing in vile diesel fumes. I'd take the corsa driver over a quieter diesel any day of the week.


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## Tank. (Dec 26, 2011)

haha good, but hopefully i'll not have my corsa much longer 

maybe an older S4 is an option then and just deal with the cost of fuel


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

Tank. said:


> haha good, but hopefully i'll not have my corsa much longer
> 
> maybe an older S4 is an option then and just deal with the cost of fuel


The S4 is a killer with fuel. Would be lovely to have a V8, but they are gas guzzlers.

Again the issue for me is the BMW 335i does everything better than the Audi. In many fields a mile ahead.

This is the later S5 against a not so good looking 335i SE with little wheels.






Judge the difference by the smile.


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## Tank. (Dec 26, 2011)

sorry meant the old s4 2.7 bi turbo,


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## johanr77 (Aug 4, 2011)

The A8 came with a 4.2 litre TDI and quattro, can get some decent used examples. Mileage would be relatively high for the budget you have to play with though.


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

johanr77 said:


> The A8 came with a 4.2 litre TDI and quattro, can get some decent used examples. Mileage would be relatively high for the budget you have to play with though.


The A8 is a huge car, and if you're in the market for a A4, the A8 isn't in the same class.

It is a cruising car.


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## johanr77 (Aug 4, 2011)

Guy is looking at audi with a big diesel engine and 4wd, strikes me an A8 would be right up his street for the right price.


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## RisingPower (Sep 21, 2007)

johanr77 said:


> Guy is looking at audi with a big diesel engine and 4wd, strikes me an A8 would be right up his street for the right price.


For snow, in the pennines and being economical?


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## johanr77 (Aug 4, 2011)

Boss had one for 5 years and never had much bother in snow with it. Wasn't that bad on fuel.


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

johanr77 said:


> Guy is looking at audi with a big diesel engine and 4wd, strikes me an A8 would be right up his street for the right price.


I disagree. The A8 is very rare as it is such a huge car that only fills the needs of a few drivers. You won't see 30MPG on average.



RisingPower said:


> For snow, in the pennines and being economical?


It doesn't quite cover that, does it?

I enjoy my time on DW mostly, but the thing that gets on my wick more than anything is this huge VW and Audi bias.

The question is never what car suits my needs, it is what car does Audi or VW make that is close enough to my needs.

The bias is simply incredible.


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## RisingPower (Sep 21, 2007)

johanr77 said:


> Boss had one for 5 years and never had much bother in snow with it. Wasn't that bad on fuel.


30ish mpg, for a diesel? Why?

I'm sorry but I simply don't see the point in a diesel which makes no more power than a petrol for roughly the same mpg, that's just silly.


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## johanr77 (Aug 4, 2011)

Kerr said:


> I disagree. The A8 is very rare as it is such a huge car that only fills the needs of a few drivers. You won't see 30MPG on average.


I disagree.



Kerr said:


> It doesn't quite cover that, does it?
> 
> I enjoy my time on DW mostly, but the thing that gets on my wick more than anything is this huge VW and Audi bias.
> 
> ...


You think there is a vw and audi bias. Why didn't you say something before.


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## Tank. (Dec 26, 2011)

From a couple of Mechanics and MOT testers I've spoken say audis are the cars to have.


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## RisingPower (Sep 21, 2007)

You haven't explained why a diesel that gets 30mpg is in any shape or form a sensible idea.

Is it a good idea to get equivalent mpg as a reasonable petrol engine, but pay more for diesel?

Are there in fact people out there who find a diesel which gets 30ish mpg considerably more expensive to run than a petrol which gets 20ish mpg?

An a8 is not a young persons car. Christ I found the e39 m5 a bit too fuddy duddy.


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

johanr77 said:


> I disagree.
> 
> You think there is a vw and audi bias. Why didn't you say something before.


Yes. They also get the hump when you mention it.


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## RisingPower (Sep 21, 2007)

Tank. said:


> From a couple of Mechanics and MOT testers I've spoken say audis are the cars to have.


Why? Bit of a bizarre statement.


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## Tank. (Dec 26, 2011)

Talking about the older ones i think. Solid and reliable. The number on the road certainly says something


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

Tank. said:


> From a couple of Mechanics and MOT testers I've spoken say audis are the cars to have.


Totally disagree.

Warranty direct released their customers claims for warranties and Audi were second last for engine reliability only beating Rover. Yes Rover.

1 in 27 of their Audi customers suffered some sort on engine failure. German cars all faired badly, but Audi are significantly worse.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/news/9815860/German-cars-lose-out-in-reliability-survey.html

AA have the Audi contract in Aberdeen for Audi recovery.

The guy was telling us that Audi put far more pressure for them to save cars at the roadside and provide them equipment that no other manufacturer would allow them to have.

He admitted that Audi was his most common call out and he was forced to do stuff that he wouldn't be allowed to, or happy to do with any other car.

Audi are also by far the most commonly stolen car in Aberdeen. They are seeing their insurance premiums rocket by how easy and commonly their cars are stolen.


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## RisingPower (Sep 21, 2007)

Tank. said:


> Talking about the older ones i think. Solid and reliable. The number on the road certainly says something


My ordained minister told me ssanyongs are more reliable than audis and better looking too?


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## Tank. (Dec 26, 2011)

Funny, i wouldn't believe a man of the cloth anyway, they talk of a higher being and we all know thats lies too


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## T.D.K (Mar 16, 2011)

Guy I work with is from Lithuania and says all the time, it's all about the tyres.


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## RisingPower (Sep 21, 2007)

T.D.K said:


> Guy I work with is from Lithuania and says all the time, it's all about the tyres.


They must be winter tyres though.


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## RisingPower (Sep 21, 2007)

Tank. said:


> Funny, i wouldn't believe a man of the cloth anyway, they talk of a higher being and we all know thats lies too


Ok ok, it was the salesman at the audi dealership in cambridge.


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## Tank. (Dec 26, 2011)

And we all know car salesmen are the biggest liars going

I wouldnt believe a word anyone says and make my mind up for myself

Maybe repair figures are so high on average because so many people have them, i know from my time on the roads that ive rarely if ever seen an audi down at the road side


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

Tank. said:


> And we all know car salesmen are the biggest liars going
> 
> I wouldnt believe a word anyone says and make my mind up for myself
> 
> Maybe repair figures are so high on average because so many people have them, i know from my time on the roads that ive rarely if ever seen an audi down at the road side


That isn't repair figures. That is just the amount of cars that suffered a failure.

They don't break down the cost or the failure. I don't think it would be unfair to assume that the premium brands would generally cost more to fix that cheaper brands.

I'd say a high proportion of cars I see broken down are Audis.

They are the commoners car in Aberdeen though.


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## RisingPower (Sep 21, 2007)

Tank. said:


> And we all know car salesmen are the biggest liars going
> 
> I wouldnt believe a word anyone says and make my mind up for myself
> 
> Maybe repair figures are so high on average because so many people have them, i know from my time on the roads that ive rarely if ever seen an audi down at the road side


I've seen many vws, audis, bmws all by the roadside.

No car is perfect and the less there is to go wrong, the better.

The idea that one car brand is massively superior in every way to every other brand, is laughable.


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

RisingPower said:


> I've seen many vws, audis, bmws all by the roadside.
> 
> No car is perfect and the less there is to go wrong, the better.
> 
> The idea that one car brand is massively superior in every way to every other brand, is laughable.


Especially when you've picked one of the worst.

None of the German cars are that reliable. If you want reliability, buy Japanese. However they just don't have the social standing that German cars do.

German cars do seem to be made more solid, but figures don't confirm that.

People don't like to admit fault when they buy a car. They pretend everything is 100% when it isn't.

Only once they sell the car and move to another brand do they finally admit the previous car wasn't up to much.


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## Chino (Sep 12, 2011)

The problem with any turbo diesel these days is manufacturers try to make them drive like a petrol as much as possible...this means higher boost etc which results I turbos becoming consumable parts that need changing on similar mileage to belts and pumps. Audis are popular because they are desirable and offer good spec and a decent badge. Hence so many fleets run off them. And VW to a similar extent. Someone offered me a a3 or a4, or a similarly graded vauxhall or Citroen, I know which I'd take take, and it would be german. I am with Tank, I suspect Audi are a victim of their own success. 
As for a 15k a year, I wouldn't gonest think it's worth having a diesel. Like it of not a diesel will always be a compromise over a petrol. I can only think it's due to reduced company car tax due to carbon emissions that you would want a diesel for that kind of mileage.


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## johanr77 (Aug 4, 2011)

I think he wants a diesel because hs is coming from one and has a liking of it. I agree below 15k it's not really worth having a diesel but the guy is asking for options in big engined diesels with 4wd then his reasons are his own.


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## RisingPower (Sep 21, 2007)

johanr77 said:


> I think he wants a diesel because hs is coming from one and has a liking of it. I agree below 15k it's not really worth having a diesel but the guy is asking for options in big engined diesels with 4wd then his reasons are his own.


Some reasons why you'd suggest a 30mpg diesel engine makes sense over a 25mpg petrol engine?


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## Chino (Sep 12, 2011)

johanr77 said:


> I think he wants a diesel because hs is coming from one and has a liking of it. I agree below 15k it's not really worth having a diesel but the guy is asking for options in big engined diesels with 4wd then his reasons are his own.


That's fair enough, guess I was just indulging my own thoughts a little there.

As far as I can see it the day of ultra reliable diesels went as soon as they stopped doing non turbo or low pressure turbo engines. The days before dual mass flywheels, dpf, egr and 0-60 times below 15seconds. All these things are compromises to make a diesel more appealing and more compatible to the every day driver who is used to petrol, but ultimately at the cost of reliability.


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## johanr77 (Aug 4, 2011)

RisingPower said:


> Some reasons why you'd suggest a 30mpg diesel engine makes sense over a 25mpg petrol engine?


Did I say that it would.


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

johanr77 said:


> Did I say that it would.


You didn't directly, but didn't come up with a better solution.

If you have something else to suggest, go for it.

What 25MPG petrol would you suggest over a 30MPG diesel?


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## Tank. (Dec 26, 2011)

Why would you, offsetting the cost of fuel youre still cheaper in the 30 mpg diesel than you are in a 25 mpg petrol


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

Tank. said:


> Why would you, offsetting the cost of fuel youre still cheaper in the 30 mpg diesel than you are in a 25 mpg petrol


Only if you are looking directly at fuel prices.

The chances are you could buy a far fresher/better spec petrol car for the same money. Or buy a similar petrol car and put the money into petrol.

Big diesel cars will cost more to service and often prove to be more costly with failures.

Then there is the driving aspect to consider.

If driving is an important feature, why buy a diesel when you can have a nicer petrol?


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## Tank. (Dec 26, 2011)

I think in my case upgrading from a 1.2 corsa any bigger engine is gonna be a tough blow to begin with until i get used to it, my reasoning was that maybe a diesel would soften the blow a bit allowing for a larger capacity engine and not being hit quite so hard in the pocket fuel wise compared to a similar displacement petrol engine.
Guess I'm wrong


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## johanr77 (Aug 4, 2011)

Kerr said:


> You didn't directly, but didn't come up with a better solution.
> 
> If you have something else to suggest, go for it.
> 
> What 25MPG petrol would you suggest over a 30MPG diesel?


I also didn't indirectly say it. If he asked for suggestions for a big engined petrol car with 4wd I wouldn't have suggested a diesel a8.


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

Tank. said:


> I think in my case upgrading from a 1.2 corsa any bigger engine is gonna be a tough blow to begin with until i get used to it, my reasoning was that maybe a diesel would soften the blow a bit allowing for a larger capacity engine and not being hit quite so hard in the pocket fuel wise compared to a similar displacement petrol engine.
> Guess I'm wrong


It's not a straight up as fuel costs only.

Consumables and servicing are going to eat up a lot more, especially with buying a car that is going to be years old with a fair few miles.

Diesels seem cheaper on paper, but for the vast majority of people they are significantly more expensive.


----------



## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

johanr77 said:


> I also didn't indirectly say it. If he asked for suggestions for a big engined petrol car with 4wd I wouldn't have suggested a diesel a8.


Not sure where this is heading.

An A4 to an A8 isn't a direct change of car. I don't imagine many people go out for a Corsa and come back with a Mondeo.

It was a simple question asked by RP, you shirted it, and now we are contesting hypothetical what ifs.

Just give a straight answer.


----------



## Dift (May 22, 2011)

Bottom line for me.

Your only real option is a A4/A5/A6 Quattro (proper Quattro, non of this Haldex nonsense).

They do sound nice, and can be made to go very quickly (but for a fair amount of money )






With a proper Quattro equipped car and winter tyres you could handle 99% of the weather this country throws at you. The other 1%, you'd have a death wish to go out in anyway.

Also to add, I wouldn't own a new tdi for love nor money. My limit is early 2000 era just before silly DPFs etc. The old 1.9 SDI and 1.9 TDI VAGS, or 2.0 HDI PSA. DMFs can be changed for a SMF so no big expense. I don't fancy the potential bills with any of these new engines (that goes for petroleum as well as diesel).


----------



## Summit Detailing (Oct 9, 2006)

johanr77 said:


> Guy is looking at audi with a big diesel engine and 4wd, strikes me an A8 would be right up his street for the right price.


Even if you don't buy an A8, at least go for a test drive, it'll help you put other possible purchases in perspective:car:
I maybe biased, currently running a 2003 4.0TDI A8 but they are a fabulous bit of kit.


----------



## SteveyG (Apr 1, 2007)

Kerr said:


> Only if you are looking directly at fuel prices.
> 
> The chances are you could buy a far fresher/better spec petrol car for the same money. Or buy a similar petrol car and put the money into petrol.


I think it depends a little on the brand. We had a brief look at the A4/A5/A6 and there were actually very few petrols for sale whereas you could find any spec you wanted in a diesel. Diesels definitely appear to be cheaper to buy on Audis in the £15k+ range as there are more of them.


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## rf860 (Jul 24, 2011)

Nobody has mentioned depreciation on this thread. IMO this is a major factor when purchasing any car and like it or not, diesel cars (the more everyday kind) keep their value better than the petrol equivalent. This is obviously due to the current market demand for diesel cars, regardless or whether the people buying them actually need a diesels or not, they are being bought in droves. 

A good example of this is the jaguar xf. A two year old petrol 3.0 can be bought for significantly less than the 3.0 diesel model. 

As for my recommendation to the original poster, I suggest you test drive a 2.0 tdi before looking at 3.0 tdis. Coming from a 1.2 corsa, your going to find that the difference in performance is massive, even with the 2.0.


----------



## cdti_sri (Jul 17, 2006)

Umm why has no one mentioned the 5.0 v10 phaeton? Not the fastest barge but it is a big engine tdi.


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## Snowy172 (Oct 2, 2013)

cdti_sri said:


> Umm why has no one mentioned the 5.0 v10 phaeton? Not the fastest barge but it is a big engine tdi.


or a phaeton full stop they do a 3.0tdi


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## JamesnDaz (Feb 27, 2007)

Thanks for all the tips guys. Seems Tank is in the same boat as me... Regarding just the 2.0tdi I the original poster ha have currently got a 1.9tdi A4 so was looking for the better speeds, nicer engine noise (v6) and 4wd.. 


James


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## rf860 (Jul 24, 2011)

JamesnDaz said:


> Thanks for all the tips guys. Seems Tank is in the same boat as me... Regarding just the 2.0tdi I the original poster ha have currently got a 1.9tdi A4 so was looking for the better speeds, nicer engine noise (v6) and 4wd..
> 
> James


Apologies, didn't realise it was yourself that was the OP.

In that case, I suggest you do some calcs on excell. Depreciation, running costs etc. See what's cheaper petrol v diesels for the same car.


----------



## SteveTDCi (Feb 8, 2006)

I've driven the new a6 v6 biturbo, it's still not as nice as a petrol. Bigger depreciation also means a better bargin. 

Have a look for a c320cdi.


----------



## Paintguy (Oct 31, 2005)

Tank. said:


> maybe an older S4 is an option then and just deal with the cost of fuel


Now you're talking 

Not the most economical of choices whichever way you look at it, but you'd have well over half of your budget left for repairs and fuel :thumb:


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## Tank. (Dec 26, 2011)

JamesnDaz said:


> Thanks for all the tips guys. Seems Tank is in the same boat as me... Regarding just the 2.0tdi I the original poster ha have currently got a 1.9tdi A4 so was looking for the better speeds, nicer engine noise (v6) and 4wd..
> 
> James


sorry mate didnt mean to hijack your thread, but as you say im just as curious being in the same boat as you


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## DIESEL DAVE (Jul 26, 2007)

Audi Allroad ?
I had a 2.5 tdi model, not bad


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## RisingPower (Sep 21, 2007)

Tank. said:


> Why would you, offsetting the cost of fuel youre still cheaper in the 30 mpg diesel than you are in a 25 mpg petrol


The difference in price between them with the cost difference between diesel and petrol is marginal. Then you've got bits which diesel cars have that petrol cars simply don't.


----------



## possul (Nov 14, 2008)

Assuming faults that can develop in a diesel should not be included when deciding a petrol or diesel vehicle IMO.
Yes that have different parts that can fail, but if both a petrol and diesel V6 were fault free in x years of wondership the diesel would be cheaper to run. Long shot maybe yes but I don't look at faults that can develop.
Also think that saying you NEED a AWD car when you been driving around in a FWD makes little sense. Unless you have only just moved of course then yes, maybe nessacery!

Just worked out fuel cost difference between 3.0 petrol and diesel based on 12k and uk average fuel costs, Disesel £1299 vs £2149 for petrol.
If anything, extra from savings put towards possible repairs.


----------



## RisingPower (Sep 21, 2007)

possul said:


> Assuming faults that can develop in a diesel should not be included when deciding a petrol or diesel vehicle IMO.
> Yes that have different parts that can fail, but if both a petrol and diesel V6 were fault free in x years of wondership the diesel would be cheaper to run. Long shot maybe yes but I don't look at faults that can develop.
> Also think that saying you NEED a AWD car when you been driving around in a FWD makes little sense. Unless you have only just moved of course then yes, maybe nessacery!
> 
> ...


Doesn't cover the cost of a turbo or dpf


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## RisingPower (Sep 21, 2007)

JamesnDaz said:


> Thanks for all the tips guys. Seems Tank is in the same boat as me... Regarding just the 2.0tdi I the original poster ha have currently got a 1.9tdi A4 so was looking for the better speeds, nicer engine noise (v6) and 4wd..
> 
> James


I am just curious as to how the engine noise is going to be nice in a diesel?


----------



## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

possul said:


> Assuming faults that can develop in a diesel should not be included when deciding a petrol or diesel vehicle IMO.
> Yes that have different parts that can fail, but if both a petrol and diesel V6 were fault free in x years of wondership the diesel would be cheaper to run. Long shot maybe yes but I don't look at faults that can develop.
> Also think that saying you NEED a AWD car when you been driving around in a FWD makes little sense. Unless you have only just moved of course then yes, maybe nessacery!
> 
> ...


At £1299 for 12, 000 miles, that gives an average of over 57mpg. The 3.0 diesel will only do 35mpg. £2132 is the cost at 35mpg.

At 27mpg the petrol will be £2644 per year.


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## Tank. (Dec 26, 2011)

Still a saving of £500 is that not significant enough

Anyway DPFs are easily removed which saves any issue further down the line


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## RisingPower (Sep 21, 2007)

Tank. said:


> Still a saving of £500 is that not significant enough
> 
> Anyway DPFs are easily removed which saves any issue further down the line


Apart from making your car illegal for road use.


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## Tank. (Dec 26, 2011)

Dpf removal is not illegal, biggest trade going for diesels at the moment. Theyre a nuisance and unnecessary


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## RisingPower (Sep 21, 2007)

Tank. said:


> Dpf removal is not illegal, biggest trade going for diesels at the moment. Theyre a nuisance and unnecessary


Removing factory fitted dpfs is illegal, as with any factory fitted emission reducing devices.

I suggest you read up on it :thumb:

They're necessary to stop diesels emitting huge plumes of very unpleasant particulates, but a lot of diesel drivers don't really seem to give a damn about that.


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

Tank. said:


> Still a saving of £500 is that not significant enough
> 
> Anyway DPFs are easily removed which saves any issue further down the line


Not for me no.

Firstly you'd have to do 12, 000 miles. The average private user is 10, 000.

Buying a diesel over a petrol is a compromise that I'd need to be heavily compensated for.

DPFs are needed on diesels. They are filthy and dangerous without it. It will be an MOT fail if found to be missing.

For a remap to stop the DPF cycles and to have your current DPF cored out, you're looking at £450ish. For a remap and a replacement pipe you are looking at £700-800.

You are around £1700 for a replacement DPF on 3l BMWs.


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## RisingPower (Sep 21, 2007)

Kerr said:


> Not for me no.
> 
> Firstly you'd have to do 12, 000 miles. The average private user is 10, 000.
> 
> ...


Also if they found out your dpf had been cored out i'm not sure the rozzers would be particularly happy about it, or your insurers.


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## RisingPower (Sep 21, 2007)

http://cleanairinlondon.org/sources...vehicles-illegally-after-government-failures/


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

DPFs only have an expected life of around 70-80k. 

Buying a 6 year old average car, and it's a bill that you are likely to face soon.


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## Tank. (Dec 26, 2011)

DPF is not specified in any VOSA MOT documentation, as long as the vehicle passes the emissions test there is nothing wrong with that.


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## Snowy172 (Oct 2, 2013)

just coz it will pas a mot does not mean the car is road legal heavily tinted front windows pass a mot but fail the contraction of use regulations visa can enforce making the car illegal this could be the same with dpf not to sure tho as never read up on the legality of removing them


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## RisingPower (Sep 21, 2007)

Tank. said:


> DPF is not specified in any VOSA MOT documentation, as long as the vehicle passes the emissions test there is nothing wrong with that.


Did you read the article? Also, do you think decats are legal for road use?


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## Tank. (Dec 26, 2011)

http://www.angeltuning.co.uk/dpf-removal-is-it_legal-will-it-pass-mot.aspx


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## RisingPower (Sep 21, 2007)

Tank. said:


> http://www.angeltuning.co.uk/dpf-removal-is-it_legal-will-it-pass-mot.aspx


:lol::lol::lol::lol:

You'd take what a tuner is saying over government law? :lol::lol:

You do realise it's not just vosa who determines legality of a car for road use? :lol::lol:


----------



## Tank. (Dec 26, 2011)

I love how you argue like it directly affects you, think people listen to clarkson a little too much


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## RisingPower (Sep 21, 2007)

Tank. said:


> I love how you argue like it directly affects you, think people listen to clarkson a little too much


It does affect me if I have to breath in filthy diesel fumes, in fact it affects everyone, including your kids if you have any if they have to breath in diesel fumes.

It's this ridiculous notion that cars should be taxed on co2 emissions but nothing else.

Weren't there some people complaining recently about secondhand smoke and saying that diesel was somehow less of a serious issue?


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

Tank. said:


> DPF is not specified in any VOSA MOT documentation, as long as the vehicle passes the emissions test there is nothing wrong with that.


Diesel cars don't have an emissions test, they have a smoke test.

The smoke test is also only two limits. One for NA cars and one for turbos. The limit is very high to suit old dirty cars.



Tank. said:


> I love how you argue like it directly affects you, think people listen to clarkson a little too much


It does directly affect us, especially when we have to put up with the stinking reek.

What has DPFs got to do with Clarkson?


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## Tank. (Dec 26, 2011)

Theres plenty other things that'll kill me and my kids before diesel fumes, why is the EU the only collective thats working towards exhaust emissions when nobody else is bothering, its a wasted effort. All you need to look at is Americas best and worst cities for fuel consumption vehicles, even their best city had only 30% vehicles doing over 30mpg.


----------



## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

Tank. said:


> Theres plenty other things that'll kill me and my kids before diesel fumes, why is the EU the only collective thats working towards exhaust emissions when nobody else is bothering, its a wasted effort. All you need to look at is Americas best and worst cities for fuel consumption vehicles, even their best city had only 30% vehicles doing over 30mpg.


That's a very weak excuse.


----------



## RisingPower (Sep 21, 2007)

Tank. said:


> Theres plenty other things that'll kill me and my kids before diesel fumes, why is the EU the only collective thats working towards exhaust emissions when nobody else is bothering, its a wasted effort. All you need to look at is Americas best and worst cities for fuel consumption vehicles, even their best city had only 30% vehicles doing over 30mpg.


So you'd like your kids to inhale a big cloud of diesel fumes from all the cars sitting around schools without dpfs?

Americans don't believe in diesels, they believe in big v8s.

The only reason cars are taxed on co2 emissions is to raise revenue.


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## possul (Nov 14, 2008)

RisingPower said:


> Doesn't cover the cost of a turbo or dpf


No but if it gets motorway runs this will be reduced slightly as to when it goes (noticed I said when not if )
Or get the 2.7 A5 bi turbo mentioned earlier. 2 turbos on that to go wrong.


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## DIESEL DAVE (Jul 26, 2007)

This thread is way off the OPs original question


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## -Kev- (Oct 30, 2007)

and back on topic please..


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## Snowy172 (Oct 2, 2013)

something like this?

http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classif...1501/onesearchad/used,nearlynew,new?logcode=p


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## SteveTDCi (Feb 8, 2006)

Petrol causes the sun to come out, diesel cancer apparently oh and asthma. I'd still be looking at a c350cdi.


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## Dift (May 22, 2011)

JamesnDaz said:


> Thanks for all the tips guys. Seems Tank is in the same boat as me... Regarding just the 2.0tdi I the original poster ha have currently got a 1.9tdi A4 so was looking for the better speeds, nicer engine noise (v6) and 4wd..
> 
> James


If I were you and you had the money, I'd just get a Quattro version of your car, take a trip to Darkside Developments, and give them a bit of money.

You'd have as much power as you like/could afford, plus it wouldnt sound too bad for a 4cylinder diesel.

After all they do have a 500hp seat arosa.






10.89 1/4 is impressive in anyone's book!

£1500 should see 230-240 in an 1.9 tdi... No silly DPFs etc.

The difficult part is finding a 1.9tdi Quattro a4


----------



## RisingPower (Sep 21, 2007)

possul said:


> No but if it gets motorway runs this will be reduced slightly as to when it goes (noticed I said when not if )
> Or get the 2.7 A5 bi turbo mentioned earlier. 2 turbos on that to go wrong.


S4? Subaru legacy? Merc c240? Lexus is? Alfa 159?

S4 has no turbos to go wrong (at least the c6 I think)


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## JamesnDaz (Feb 27, 2007)

RisingPower said:


> I am just curious as to how the engine noise is going to be nice in a diesel?


Didnt say it was "nice" i said I wanted Nicer! V6 Diesel sounds better than a normal 1.9tdi, its clear your anti Diesel which is fine but stop trying to pick holes in peoples comments.. You keep twisting words and making presumptions..

Also "nice" "nicer" are all subjective words, who are you to judge what I see as nice? You might like Fat Gingers who am I to say otherwise.... Get over yourself and show some respect!

James


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## JamesnDaz (Feb 27, 2007)

SteveTDCi said:


> I've driven the new a6 v6 biturbo, it's still not as nice as a petrol. Bigger depreciation also means a better bargin.
> 
> Have a look for a c320cdi.


Thanks for the idea, but most mercs are RWD


----------



## RisingPower (Sep 21, 2007)

JamesnDaz said:


> Didnt say it was "nice" i said I wanted Nicer! V6 Diesel sounds better than a normal 1.9tdi, its clear your anti Diesel which is fine but stop trying to pick holes in peoples comments.. You keep twisting words and making presumptions..
> 
> Also "nice" "nicer" are all subjective words, who are you to judge what I see as nice? You might like Fat Gingers who am I to say otherwise.... Get over yourself and show some respect!
> 
> James


I'm not anti diesel, it's great for cars which spend all their time on motorways picking up a lot of miles along the way. Otherwise, I don't get it. What else are diesels preferential for over petrol engines?

The main question as quite a few people have asked is, why is diesel absolutely necessary in your case? A lot of cars suggested have very marginal better economy than petrol engines, if they do at all.

I'm not judging what you see as nice, i'm merely questioning what benefits a diesel has over petrol especially if you were say to consider the much larger diesels. Even the 3 litre in the phaeton seems poor.

I'm also not sure where i've twisted words?


----------



## JamesnDaz (Feb 27, 2007)

You keep sticking up for petrols, well show me some then which will average good mpgs, suite my budget and be 4WD ??


----------



## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

JamesnDaz said:


> Thanks for the idea, but most mercs are RWD


How often are you getting stuck in the snow? Do you put snow tyres on your own car?

Here is a demo of RWD with snow tyres v 4WD.


----------



## RisingPower (Sep 21, 2007)

JamesnDaz said:


> You keep sticking up for petrols, well show me some then which will average good mpgs, suite my budget and be 4WD ??


You ruled out the legacy right, they get 30ish? Alfa 159 gets 24mpg.

What do you consider to be a reasonable mpg and you haven't mentioned power either?

Volvo s40 t5 iirc came with 4wd and got 30ish mpg.


----------



## Dift (May 22, 2011)

Some people prefer diesel to petrol powered cars... For A to B driving... I am one of them.

Easy access to torque aka lazy power has its benefits.

People are different, it makes the world what it is.


----------



## RisingPower (Sep 21, 2007)

Dift said:


> Some people prefer diesel to petrol powered cars... For A to B driving... I am one of them.
> 
> Easy access to torque aka lazy power has its benefits.
> 
> People are different, it makes the world what it is.


But when you get into significantly larger engines or slightly larger turbo'd petrols, is there really much reason to prefer diesels?

I totally get it in the smaller petrol and diesel engines.


----------



## Paintguy (Oct 31, 2005)

RisingPower said:


> I'm not anti diesel, it's great for cars which spend all their time on motorways picking up a lot of miles along the way. Otherwise, I don't get it. What else are diesels preferential for over petrol engines?


Lazy driving style.

For those that just want to chug about a diesel can offer a more relaxed way of doing it. Sure a big petrol engine can offer similar levels of low down torque but for "real world" cars an oil burner edges it.



Kerr said:


> How often are you getting stuck in the snow? Do you put snow tyres on your own car?
> 
> Here is a demo of RWD with snow tyres v 4WD.


Have you seen the Auto Express one with the two Ford Kuga's? A much more controlled test and even more impressive.


----------



## RisingPower (Sep 21, 2007)

Paintguy said:


> Lazy driving style.
> 
> For those that just want to chug about a diesel can offer a more relaxed way of doing it. Sure a big petrol engine can offer similar levels of low down torque but for "real world" cars an oil burner edges it.
> 
> Have you seen the Auto Express one with the two Ford Kuga's? A much more controlled test and even more impressive.


How does an oil burner edge it if a petrol engine offers similar levels of low down torque? Or are you comparing large capacity petrol engines vs small diesel engines?

If so, sure, small petrol engines don't have that much torque, but when you start getting into larger engines I don't think that holds true anymore.

Aiui this sounds more like getting into larger engine capacity?


----------



## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

Paintguy said:


> Have you seen the Auto Express one with the two Ford Kuga's? A much more controlled test and even more impressive.


That's a good video.

If the OP lives is a tough area where 4WD and snow tyres really are needed, then I'd say fair enough, buy a 4WD car.

If he doesn't put snow tyres on his own car, I'd say buying a 4WD car is actually dodging the issue at hand.

For a daily driving car, I really don't see the need for 4wd. You'll very rarely see any benefit of it, especially in cars with 200-233BHP.

You then have the issues of having the drains of the 4WD system eating into the fuel consumption for the remaining time.

If you are doing 15k per year and 80% motorway, quattro isn't very helpful.


----------



## JamesnDaz (Feb 27, 2007)

Maybe 4WD is overkill watching them videos.... so just to open it up a bit some options then now, BMW 330d ? Merc C320d Class ? With Winter tyres obviously


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## Dift (May 22, 2011)

Kerr said:


> That's a good video.
> 
> If the OP lives is a tough area where 4WD and snow tyres really are needed, then I'd say fair enough, buy a 4WD car.
> 
> ...


Completely agree, I've 'needed' mine maybe 4 or 5 days in my 5 years of ownership.


----------



## Kriminal (Jan 11, 2007)

JamesnDaz said:


> Maybe 4WD is overkill watching them videos.... so just to open it up a bit some options then now, BMW 330d ? Merc C320d Class ? With Winter tyres obviously


Is the Audi now out of the runnings?

Out of the two above, I'd choose the Merc - nobody will talk to you again, on here, if you buy the BMW  :thumb:


----------



## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

Kriminal said:


> Is the Audi now out of the runnings?
> 
> Out of the two above, I'd choose the Merc - nobody will talk to you again, on here, if you buy the BMW  :thumb:


Except me and Derek.


----------



## Kriminal (Jan 11, 2007)

Kerr said:


> Except me and Derek.


I knew I had a couple of friends left after selling the Audi :thumb:


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## JamesnDaz (Feb 27, 2007)

No not at all Audi is very much top of the list still. Since 19 ive had VW's/Audis Mk2 Scirocco(see thread in projects)/Mk4 Golf/ Mk2 Caddy Van/ Audi A4


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## Kriminal (Jan 11, 2007)

JamesnDaz said:


> No not at all Audi is very much top of the list still. Since 19 ive had VW's/Audis Mk2 Scirocco(see thread in projects)/Mk4 Golf/ Mk2 Caddy Van/ Audi A4


Phew!....I'd hate to have thought that we'd have reached page 15, and you've lost the love for an Audi  :thumb:


----------



## RisingPower (Sep 21, 2007)

Kerr said:


> Except me and Derek.


I don't talk to you! 

Oh.. Wait.. i have a zed now, not an m3...


----------



## Paintguy (Oct 31, 2005)

RisingPower said:


> How does an oil burner edge it if a petrol engine offers similar levels of low down torque? Or are you comparing large capacity petrol engines vs small diesel engines?
> 
> If so, sure, small petrol engines don't have that much torque, but when you start getting into larger engines I don't think that holds true anymore.


I think my reply was rushed and not phrased very well 

For smaller engine, the kind most people drive, I find diesels to have a torque spread more suited to a relaxed driving style when compared to a petrol of the same size.

As engine size goes up (> 2l) I find the difference to be less marked.


----------



## SteveTDCi (Feb 8, 2006)

This also comes in 1.8t petrol and 3.2 v6, but for the benefit of the op ...

http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classif...wn/keywords/4x4/model/superb/page/1?logcode=p


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## SteveyG (Apr 1, 2007)

Kerr said:


> For a daily driving car, I really don't see the need for 4wd. You'll very rarely see any benefit of it, especially in cars with 200-233BHP


4WD will get you plenty of traction on the road though and will always handle better than 2WD.


----------



## Dift (May 22, 2011)

SteveyG said:


> 4WD will get you plenty of traction on the road though and will always handle better than 2WD.


'Always' handle better??? :tumbleweed:

I'm not sure even where to start with that.


----------



## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

SteveyG said:


> 4WD will get you plenty of traction on the road though and will always handle better than 2WD.


Think of all the best handling cars in the world. Think how many aren't either 2WD or have 4wd systems that heavily favour 2 wheels for the vast majority of the time. You won't have much of a list.

In the right circumstances 4wd is a great help. It doesn't help you stop and steer though.

For the majority of circumstances, if you are needing the traction of 4wd, you are driving too fast for the road conditions.


----------



## SteveTDCi (Feb 8, 2006)

We have a tt Quattro and a Mini Cooper s, one is 4wd, one is fwd, pulling out of a wet junction I would take the Quattro every time, it just grips and goes, going down a set of twisting roads ... The Quattro can stay at home.


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## RisingPower (Sep 21, 2007)

SteveTDCi said:


> We have a tt Quattro and a Mini Cooper s, one is 4wd, one is fwd, pulling out of a wet junction I would take the Quattro every time, it just grips and goes, going down a set of twisting roads ... The Quattro can stay at home.


Ima confused


----------



## RisingPower (Sep 21, 2007)

Paintguy said:


> I think my reply was rushed and not phrased very well
> 
> For smaller engine, the kind most people drive, I find diesels to have a torque spread more suited to a relaxed driving style when compared to a petrol of the same size.
> 
> As engine size goes up (> 2l) I find the difference to be less marked.


It does help that dervs have turbos, but yes, smaller dervs are torquier than petrols.


----------



## SteveyG (Apr 1, 2007)

Dift said:


> 'Always' handle better??? :tumbleweed:
> 
> I'm not sure even where to start with that.


Yes always. Given the same car with the two options I'd be interested to know how it couldn't handle better.


----------



## RisingPower (Sep 21, 2007)

SteveyG said:


> Yes always. Given the same car with the two options I'd be interested to know how it couldn't handle better.


The added weight for starters.


----------



## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

SteveyG said:


> Yes always. Given the same car with the two options I'd be interested to know how it couldn't handle better.


I think you're confusing handling with grip.

BMW now offer xdrive, but it doesn't seem to be tempting current BMW drivers away from RWD, it is aiming at Audi drivers.

Most people seem to prefer the 911 2S to the 4S.

Even Porsche themselves when they make a more focused handling version on the 911, they also opt for RWD over 4WD.

RWD has always been the most natural and best form of drive.

Yes on a slippy road and with a good 4WD car, you are going to have more traction. How often are you needing that though?

How often are you pulling away from wet junctions with enough force to spin two wheels?


----------



## Dift (May 22, 2011)

SteveyG said:


> Yes always. Given the same car with the two options I'd be interested to know how it couldn't handle better.


More weight usually = poorer handling... Especially if you don't have a say where you put it.

Think of all the best 'handling' (note the handling bit... Not traction), Caterhams, Elise etc.... Not many 4wd options.

Compare a 2WD A4 tdi next to my Quattro tdi A4. I'd be slower on track, over the 1/4 mile probably and use more fuel in all scenarios.

The only time it's handy is in snow, or when pulling away from slippery traffic lights and I'm trying to make progress.


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## mand (Nov 17, 2009)

Just throwing in my 2p worth.
Only read page 1, so don't know what has been covered so far or if the o.p has bought a car yet.
I've had a Y plate A6 2.5 tdi quattro, then got 58 plate A4 3.0 tdi quattro.
A6 would slide in corners in snow even at what I thought was slow enough speeds, but straight line was good in a few inches of snow.
A4 is much better, probably due to better weight balance, and updated 4wd system.
Clearance is a problem when snow is deeper than front spoiler.
3.0 tdi is a fantastic blend of power, torque, economy, smoothness, and reliability.

Mand


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## Kriminal (Jan 11, 2007)

mand said:


> Just throwing in my 2p worth.
> Only read page 1, so don't know what has been covered so far or if the o.p has bought a car yet.
> I've had a Y plate A6 2.5 tdi quattro, then got 58 plate A4 3.0 tdi quattro.
> A6 would slide in corners in snow even at what I thought was slow enough speeds, but straight line was good in a few inches of snow.
> ...


^ Yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay....

something constructive for the OP....at long last!  :thumb:


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