# Does anyone make............



## Gruffs (Dec 10, 2007)

A hydrophilic coating?

What I am about to say is going to shock a lot of you and it may hurt a little bit so be warned.

I don't really give a stuff about little beads on my car. They don't look nice to me, they look like millions of little water spots I'm gonna have to clean off again soon.

Is there a Hydrophilic coating that just spreads the wash and rinse water like a mofo so it evapourates from the whole panel equally and doesn't leave water spots.

I like to have the car clean and shiny. I really have better things to do on a regular basis than spend my time cleaning the car only for it to be ruined by water spots. I don't love cleaning the car, i like it clean, the less cleaning i have to do the better.

It strikes me that although the dirt will build up, it'll look better than those horrible dusty little spots that are a ***** to get off when life means you can't clean the car.


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## kasman (Sep 10, 2009)

Isn`t this Nano technology meant to do that mate?


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## Estoril-5 (Mar 8, 2007)

is it?


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## Gruffs (Dec 10, 2007)

Nope, that's hydrophobic. 

Makes the water fly off the panel and take any dirt with it. Except where the mass of the water and the panel gradient is too little and you get a bead. 

Then you get a concentration of dirt/water minerals and a water spot upon drying.

I wondered if the opposite had been tried?


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## bunyarra (Aug 26, 2006)

Would that not mean the product absorbs the water rather than disperses it in ways other than beading?

Not sure I'd want my car coating in a substance that actively retained the moisture ...

A product that encouraged sheeting rather than beading might do what you want.


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## Guest (Sep 5, 2012)

Gruffs said:


> I dont eally give a stuff about little beads on my car. They don't look nice to me, they look like millions of little water spots I'm gonna have to clean off again soon.


I think that you may have joined the wrong forum!:lol:


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## aimyv6 (Jul 17, 2011)

This would be great if we could you it on our cars 
http://www.rtbot.net/play.php?id=7is6r6zXFDc


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## Will_G (Jan 23, 2012)

I was thinking along the same lines as bunyarra that you'd end up with puddles rather than beads so you wouldnt end up with water spots more just an overall dirty puddle


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## amiller (Jan 1, 2009)

Aquartz was exactly this.

I think though that the more you level a surface (polishing, waxing etc) the more hydrophobic it will become by definition. Cause and effect.


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## JoshG1992 (Aug 16, 2011)

try this!


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## JoshG1992 (Aug 16, 2011)

oops, someone beat me to it!


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## Gruffs (Dec 10, 2007)

bunyarra said:


> Would that not mean the product absorbs the water rather than disperses it in ways other than beading?
> 
> Not sure I'd want my car coating in a substance that actively retained the moisture ...
> 
> A product that encouraged sheeting rather than beading might do what you want.


It won't retain the water, it'll evapourate from a larger surface area and dry quicker. Yes, the dirt may be over the entire surface but I'd rather that than spots.



Ben Gum said:


> A superhydrophillic coating will be self cleaning, hydrophobic, contrary to the words spouted by many manufacturers, are not. A self cleaning surface is one which will basically clean itself through action of water. If you have a dirty surface and it is hydrophobic, that means is is difficult to wet the dirt. Seeing as the primary method in which cleaners function is by wetting the dirt and transferring it into the aqueous phase - this presents something of a problem. Hydrophobic surfaces are more difficult to make dirty by the merit of the water which contains the dirt being inclined to run off before the dirt deposits. There is the potential that, once dirty, a hydrophobic surface is more difficult to clean simply down to the difficulty in making it wet! Hydrophillic is the opposite, it is easy to wet. The trouble is that self cleaning only occurs if the surface is easier to wet with water than oils and dirt. If so, water contacting the surface will be more strongly attracted than the oil or dirt meaning that the oil/dirt floats on top of the water and is thus more easily removed. Unfortunately, this combination of characteristics is rather difficult to achieve.
> 
> The other big benefit of hydrophillic, as noted by someone else, is that the water forms a big flat sheet so has a large surface area and will evaporate uniformly. That means no more water spots and massively speeded up drying times... hydrophobic is a disaster for this, water spots are everywhere and cars with strongly hydrophobic coatings are often the last ones to actually dry off fully!
> 
> ps. you mention sheeting. A surface which encourages beading will encourage the 'sheeting' you refer to. Both are results of a hydrophobic surface. Your use of the term sheeting is actually incorrect because the technical (not detailing/automotive) definition of sheeting is when water is so attracted to the water that it forms a flat sheet on contact with the surface. The problem a lot of people on here have is they see water 'run off' in a sheet and assume that means sheeting - it does not.


Mr Gum,

You've saved me the trouble.

Thank you.


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## Tips (Mar 27, 2011)

Beautifully worded explanation Ben Gum :thumb:


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## Gruffs (Dec 10, 2007)

Ben Gum said:


> :thumb:
> 
> Glad to know at least one other person on here knows this!


There are lots that know it. Only a few that admit it


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## lowejackson (Feb 23, 2006)

I wonder if it is worth trying to get some views from the sealant makers eg Dr David Ghodoussi from Optimum, Gtech Rob etc

I found this on Autogeek which may or may not be relevant here



[email protected]; said:


> ...This was the case Meguiar's made for NXT when I worked for Meguiar's. One of the chemist told me that some of the best protecting ingredients they could use in a wax or synthetic paint sealant formula don't bead water very well and to make water bead-up they had to do more to the formula...


and



gtechrob; said:


> ....regarding beading - absolutely right. we are in the process of running final trials of an extremely hydrophilic coating designed for the marine market designed to keep water spotting to a minimum (nobody likes drying their yachts after a wash down - not too much of an issue for white boats but now there is a trend for dark colours = massive issue).
> 
> best product to use imo is an extreme hydrophilic coating - you get a contact angle of as close to zero as possible = no water spotting issue.
> 
> but who here doesn't like beading!! i love it!!


From this thread http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum...ompanies-back-up-their-product-writing-2.html


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## Gruffs (Dec 10, 2007)

No doubt a few Manufacturers are tearing their hair out at me posting this.

:lol::lol::lol:

BTW, I love hydrophobic coatings. I have more need and use of them than many here but not necessarily on my car paintwork.


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## keithjmason (Oct 22, 2012)

I'm really looking for something like this especially for the roof of the car.
When it rains, at least where I am, the rain seems to contain most of the sahara. When the beads dry, the roof is covered in sandy spots.

Did anyone ever find a 'anti-bead' type sealant ?

Thanks!


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## stangalang (Nov 27, 2009)

A quartz and echelon cs-1 are both very good. I have some cs-1 here if you are in a hurry to get something sorted, but the usual warnings and conditions apply


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## stangalang (Nov 27, 2009)

Sorry I've just realised this is the mother of all resurrection threads, I'm hoping you are sorted by now lol


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## keithjmason (Oct 22, 2012)

Yeah, was me that just resurrected it 

I'm struggling to find any information on "A quartz" and "echelon cs-1" however.


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## GleemSpray (Jan 26, 2014)

Having just read this for the first time, I have to say that I am with the OP ; beading is pretty, but given the choice I would rather just have the water slide off as much as possible to avoid spots. Love my HD wax but I get lots of water spots from the beading.

This is the reason that I will argue FOR drying blades - one careful pass and a large stripe of my paintwork is bone dry and, literally, spotless. I find with drying towels that after patting dry there is often some fine residual marks on the paint which requires a gentle wipe which in itself carries a small risk.

I balance the risk of scratching with blades against the perfect finish they leave. I do check my AG Flexi blade before each pass over the paint and regularly clean it properly with soap and water between uses.

... but I would rather have an LSP that simply shrugged the water off in the first place instead of beading it (he says getting the thread back on track !).


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## David Wyllie (Jan 30, 2007)

I do wish you luck finding a LSP that would sheet easily and removing water completely and its contaminates. Many have tried. The best I have found is to wash the vehicle regularly and rinse the wash suds and water with nozzle removed with free flowing water. The sheeting action works for me, the best I have ever seen. The few pooled areas of sitting water can easily be towel dried. As for living and working in a place that has a desert in the air and in your rain drops, don’t let the rain drops evaporate completely without rinsing. I know that every place is different, but this is the best one can do.


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## robtech (Jan 17, 2011)

i too hate beading ,lets face it cars that are never waxed always look clean cars that are waxed attract dirt and soon as they dry your car looks like a friggin leopard so NO BEADING is the way forward i think too


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## james_death (Aug 9, 2010)

Simplest thing is no coating and let nature take its course.

Beading looks great, but when stationery the dirty spots left behind are a bind.

Had half the car with wax and half failing wax and what a difference in the look with the failing wax side looking cleaner as having a more uniform dirt layer.

Dont get me started on streaking especially on white...:wall:


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## keithjmason (Oct 22, 2012)

Stangalang mentioned "A quartz" and "echelon cs-1" - although i'm not able to find out much about these.

Also read that Dodo Juice "time to dry" should give a non-bead effect while the protection of whatever LSP you have still stays intact.

Anyone tried any of these ?


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## gtechrob (Sep 11, 2006)

heh - interesting. We did have an extremely hydrophillic version of C1 that we sold primarily into the marine market to keep waterlines of yachts dirt free. it worked very well. we also trialed it on peoples cars. again it worked very well.

But.... nobody bought it :lol:

bottom line is that hydrophobic coatings - doesn't matter which ones they are - come with a flip side that on horizontal panels where the water droplets cannot run off they cause contaminants and TDS to pool into the droplet which if the droplet then completely evaporates leave behind water spots.

there is no big secret about this and having the finger pointed at us saying our coatings cause water spots - well it kind of goes with the territory. what is really happening is that coatings such as exo have a very durable hydrophobic function so, for example, a scenario where a customer has had an automatic garden sprinkler drench his car on a hot summer's day 10 months after having exo applied - the coating will do what it's designed to do and more often than not this will be perceived as a failing of the coating as when he had say a wax applied - the hydrophobic effect is not so long lasting and so he would not have noticed the issue.

nb on the surface dirt question. We never claim our coatings are dirt repellent but as this image demonstrates - hydrophobic coatings do keep surfaces cleaner than uncoated surfaces


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## gtechrob (Sep 11, 2006)

nb our approach now is to manage this. we are currently working on various types of spot remover to work on the majority of spots from calcium and magnesium deposits caused by hard water through to soot and oil spots that are prevalent in countries with high levels of airborne pollutants.


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## roscopervis (Aug 22, 2006)

Bilt Hamber's Auto Balm is not a beader, particularly after a week or so of being on the car. It actually lasts a good while, but you would never tell by the way it beads, or rather doesn't.


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## keithjmason (Oct 22, 2012)

Hi Rob,

I guess I can understand that it would not be a big seller.. we all love beading, and it suggests a well protected car. Opposite of that kind of suggests that its not been looked after.

I'd just like to get this effect on the roof, and maybe bonnet.. Whenever it rains, it seems to bring most of the sahara with it, and leaves the car looking like a leopard. Then I have to get it washed, because of the look, and because of what it may do to the paint. My last car had a nice leopard print etched into the paint when I was away for a month.

Sounds like there are a few products out there that I can try (shame about the old C1 !) i'll try something on the roof, maybe 50/50 and see if it works as I thought or not..



gtechrob said:


> heh - interesting. We did have an extremely hydrophillic version of C1 that we sold primarily into the marine market to keep waterlines of yachts dirt free. it worked very well. we also trialed it on peoples cars. again it worked very well.
> 
> But.... nobody bought it :lol:
> 
> ...


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## sm81 (May 14, 2011)

What about ADS Sicko? It isn't very hydrophopic.


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## keithjmason (Oct 22, 2012)

sm81 said:


> What about ADS Sicko? It isn't very hydrophopic.


Great. Thanks!

I'll look into ADS Sicko also.


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## keithjmason (Oct 22, 2012)

stangalang said:


> A quartz and echelon cs-1 are both very good. I have some cs-1 here if you are in a hurry to get something sorted, but the usual warnings and conditions apply


Hey Matt,

So ArtDeSicko would also give same effect ?


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## Otto (Feb 2, 2013)

I may have missed it along the way but isn't Modesta BC03 Hydrophillic?


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## Graeme1 (Dec 9, 2006)

The new Oracle from carbon collective is very good. Just done my wife's brand new car and a customers car. 

Really good at self cleaning and water just runs off so well.


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