# menzerna fimal finish - diminishing compound?



## Ben_W (Feb 15, 2009)

Guys,

Quick question. Is final finish a diminishing compound and is there much to be gained in extra gloss from extending the work time 

Thanks

Ben


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## Cookies (Dec 10, 2008)

Ben, 

I had Menzerna 85RD and when I bought it from polished bliss, the advice I received was to keep the work area relatively small, but work for longer and it would finish down nicely. 

Cooks 

Sent from my D6603 using Tapatalk


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## Ben_W (Feb 15, 2009)

Cheers Niall......worked it for longer than I normally would and got a pretty decent gloss on the bonnet which I did in 4 sections. Pleased with how its turning out.


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## Cookies (Dec 10, 2008)

No bother chum. I was told that it'd finish down as well as some of the finishing polishes, even though it has a good degree of cut to it as well. 

Hope your pics are in train!!

Cooks 

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## Ben_W (Feb 15, 2009)

Yep, pics coming....up date the project thread later!


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## Alan W (May 11, 2006)

Ben_W said:


> Guys,
> 
> Quick question. Is final finish a diminishing compound and is there much to be gained in extra gloss from extending the work time
> 
> ...


Yes, Menzerna Final Finish uses a diminishing abrasive but, as the name suggest, it is a finishing polish and not particularly abrasive.

It should be worked as long as it takes to go clear and almost disappear into the paint.

Use the Zenith technique for such polishes lowering the speed and pressure towards the end to achieve the best finish.

Alan W


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## Ben_W (Feb 15, 2009)

Alan, thank you very much.

Been working it for a fair bit longer than normal, until it is nearly clear. Might work it a bit longer.

This is the result on the rear quarter. This is after finishing down with Final Finish and with nothing else put in yet. Very pleased with the results.


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## Alan W (May 11, 2006)

That looks great Ben. :thumb:

When the polish has gone clear the abrasive has all but disappeared and you’re using the abrasiveness of the pad and the lubricating oils from the polish to jewel the finish for the best gloss. 

Keep up the good work. :buffer:

Alan W


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## DrEskimo (Jan 7, 2016)

Glad this post has been created as I was going to create one similar. 

So I spent Sunday polishing the roof and boot of my car before it rained and ruined my day...

Had some light swirls that I hadn't removed on the roof so finally got round to using Megs MF compound and MF pad. I then wanted to finish it with Merzerna SF4500 and a red foam pad. I tried this on the boot and thought the results looked good after a IPA wipe and went to finish the roof when it rained. 

Next day looking at the boot I had hazes all over. Sort of holograms but not as severe. The roof was perfect though with just the Megs so must of been the Merzerna. 

Have I just not worked it long enough? Perhaps speed was too high? 

Can't help but think the Megs MF finishes well so why even bother with the Merzerna!


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## Ben_W (Feb 15, 2009)

Bit odd that....

How long did you work the SF4500 for? Maybe the red pad was a touch too aggressive for finishing work?


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## chongo (Jun 7, 2014)

when using D300 on a MF pad you will get some hazing and buffer marks:buffer: that is normal, but if you go straight to Menzerna 4500 on a red finishing pad, this is not enough cut from the pad and the abrasives in the polish to remove the marks, especially on hard paint like yours:thumb: switch to polishing pad and Menzerna 4000 then to Jewel the paint 4500 on the finishing pad:thumb:


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## Alan W (May 11, 2006)

DrEskimo said:


> I then wanted to finish it with Merzerna SF4500 and a red foam pad. I tried this on the boot and thought the results looked good after a IPA wipe and went to finish the roof when it rained.
> 
> Next day looking at the boot I had hazes all over. Sort of holograms but not as severe. The roof was perfect though with just the Megs so must of been the Merzerna.


Definitely strange! 

Red foam is usually the softest foam available and generally has very little or no cut at all.

Something is definitely wrong and that is a very unusual result for the polish and pad combination you are using.

I think you need to assess your whole technique including pad priming and amount of product used, machine speed and length of work time, pressure exerted and speed of movement across the panel. Perhaps the pad is contaminated in some way.

Alan W


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## Cookies (Dec 10, 2008)

Ben_W said:


>


Looks brill chum!!

Sent from my D6603 using Tapatalk


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## DrEskimo (Jan 7, 2016)

Alan W said:


> Definitely strange!
> 
> Red foam is usually the softest foam available and generally has very little or no cut at all.
> 
> ...


Very possibly. So many variables it's hard to know which to change! I suspect a slower speed. I was applying very little pressure (as you can't with those red foams...) and primed the pad well before hand as per the advice from all the AMMO vids I watch....

Highly doubt the pad was dodgy as it was brand new...

Hoepefully some sun this weekend to experiment. Can only see it in the sun so need it to check any work. Will try different things on different sections and see what works. I suspect (hope...) it will be very easy to rectify.

As Chongo advises, I could always go up a notch in aggression to a white hex pad? Thing is I have next to no marks on the roof with just the Megs, so it's like the mez is actually causing them!!


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## chongo (Jun 7, 2014)

DrEskimo said:


> Very possibly. So many variables it's hard to know which to change! I suspect a slower speed. I was applying very little pressure (as you can't with those red foams...) and primed the pad well before hand as per the advice from all the AMMO vids I watch....
> 
> Highly doubt the pad was dodgy as it was brand new...
> 
> ...


You will find that you will have some because you are looking straight down at it like the boot, unless you go up stairs and look out the window and see, but you should always finish off after D300 with some sort of finishing polish like the Mez:thumb: and this would definitely not cause any marks in the finish, especially on hard German paint :thumb: Blue met paint:wall:


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## chongo (Jun 7, 2014)

Oh, what make is the red pad.


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## Alan W (May 11, 2006)

Chongo is suggesting that the hazing has come from the Megs D300 and MF and that the Menzerna and red finishing pad is insufficient to remove the hazing. He is suggesting an intermediate step before you use the Menzerna 4500 and red foam pad.

However, if I understand your original post correctly you have advised that the hazing was not present after the Meguiar’s D300 and MF pad and the hazing only appeared after using the Menzerna finishing polish and red pad.

If your finishing pad was new then you can probably rule out the possibility of contamination being responsible.

Technique is all that remains and I would try different things as you suggest until you see an improvement.

Reducing the machine speed will probably only result in the polishing set taking longer. using a soft pad limits the pressure that can be applied as you say and therefore the speed of movement and size of work area are the only things that may affect the outcome although I’m not sure they will make much difference with this polish and pad combination especially with very hard Audi paint (I own a TT and know how hard the paint is!).

There must be something else we are missing because I just can’t see how a finishing polish, with very fine abrasive, and soft finishing pad can cause hazing on Audi paint. 

Alan W


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## Alan W (May 11, 2006)

Apologies to Ben_W as this Thread has gone slightly off the original topic. :buffer:

Perhaps DrEskimo can start a new Thread if he wishes to continue discussion on his polishing problem. 

Alan W


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## Ben_W (Feb 15, 2009)

Boys, I'm cool!

I got the info I needed thanks to all and if this can carry on and help others then let it be! I've a shiny black swirl free Insignia.......IR Happy!


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## DrEskimo (Jan 7, 2016)

Ha thanks Ben. I thought it was vaguely on topic, but yea did move away from you lovely shiny Insignia! Cheers buddy 

Alan you've summed it up perfectly. I'm 99% sure it's being caused by the foam pad and the Mez. Thing is I remember having problems with the mez and the white hex pad too...perhaps my technique, bottle of Mez just doesn't agree with me? It's pretty old to be fair (good 3/4 years) and nearly spent so I'm thinking of buying a bottle of Megs 205 instead to finish up from Megs D300. 

Very strange, but I think it's my technique above all else. Don't happen to be local to Herts do you lads....? Some pointers would be great! Lol


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## chongo (Jun 7, 2014)

What make of pad? And is it closed cell or open cell:thumb:


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## Ben_W (Feb 15, 2009)

Think he said it was a red Megs pad


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## DrEskimo (Jan 7, 2016)

chongo said:


> What make of pad? And is it closed cell or open cell:thumb:


Sorry mate, I bought them from serious performance on here during one of there sales. Think they are their own brand?

Not on their site anymore but at a guess it's closed cell...?

The fact I had issues with Chemical Guys Qunatum white pads makes me think it's either the Mez or my general technicque. Although I am getting good results with D300...?


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## Bod42 (Jun 4, 2009)

How filler heavy is D300, have you done a wipe down after D300 as it could be causing the hazing but your not seeing it due to fillers in the polish which maybe get removed when you use the Menz


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## DrEskimo (Jan 7, 2016)

Bod42 said:


> How filler heavy is D300, have you done a wipe down after D300 as it could be causing the hazing but your not seeing it due to fillers in the polish which maybe get removed when you use the Menz


Don't think it is, but yes I am doing a wipe down after finishing a section.


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## chongo (Jun 7, 2014)

Micro marring is your problem:thumb: sometimes when finishing down, you are not breaking down the micro abrasives so all your doing is pushing around the polish that is between your pad and paint surface, (closed cell pad) so this will cause the marks that you see, so you need not to put to much product on, and make sure you work the product probably (broken down) and most importantly, clean your pad at every section pass you have completed :wave:


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## NatB79 (Mar 4, 2016)

Have you tried cleaning the pad during the process. a spin on a microfibre might get rid of any product that's sticking on the pad and not breaking down. Might be that there's small amounts of product not getting broken down and that might be causing marring. 
I'm sure there's a video with Kevin Brown talking about this.


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## DrEskimo (Jan 7, 2016)

Awesome, cheers Chongo. My first suspicion was that I wasn't working it long enough, so that might just be it. 

I only did one pass so didn't even get a chance to use the pad again to need to clean it, but will certainly make sure I keep on top of pad cleaning and residue control. 

As I say hopefully I can get a chance this weekend to give it another bash. Will update here if I do. 

Thanks again lads


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## chongo (Jun 7, 2014)

DrEskimo said:


> Awesome, cheers Chongo. My first suspicion was that I wasn't working it long enough, so that might just be it.
> 
> I only did one pass so didn't even get a chance to use the pad again to need to clean it, but will certainly make sure I keep on top of pad cleaning and residue control.
> 
> ...


You won't have a problem with residue, it's not old paint, just keep on top of your cleaning and work time can be longer than other final finishing polishers :thumb:
A good Tip for you
When you are polishing away with 45000 on a polishing pad, as the polish starts to break down, switch your pad to a black pad and then at speed 3-4 finish off jewlling the paint to the max gloss, just before you start with the black pad, just give it a spritz of water or Menzerna QD and carry on till your happy:detailer:


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## 350Chris (May 12, 2016)

I am in Herts and have a couple of relatively new Mez grades as well as having just completed a TTS (with granite like paint)

I am far from a professional - but I can offer a couple of products or pads if you want to rule anything out


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## DrEskimo (Jan 7, 2016)

350Chris said:


> I am in Herts and have a couple of relatively new Mez grades as well as having just completed a TTS (with granite like paint)
> 
> I am far from a professional - but I can offer a couple of products or pads if you want to rule anything out


Very kind mate thanks! I've sent you a PM


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## Alan W (May 11, 2006)

I'm too far North to be of any assistance I'm afraid (Scotland). :buffer:

Alan W


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## DrEskimo (Jan 7, 2016)

Alan W said:


> I'm too far North to be of any assistance I'm afraid (Scotland). :buffer:
> 
> Alan W


Where's the commitment...?!

Only joking  Appreciate it all the same buddy :thumb:


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## chongo (Jun 7, 2014)

Am just around the corner from you.


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## chongo (Jun 7, 2014)

Only joking :lol::lol: good luck mate.:thumb:


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## Alan W (May 11, 2006)

DrEskimo said:


> Where's the commitment...?!
> 
> Only joking  Appreciate it all the same buddy :thumb:


i would if I could but I can't! :lol:

Good luck and let us know how you get on.

Have fun and enjoy. :buffer:

Alan W


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## Ben_W (Feb 15, 2009)

Just to kinda go back to my original question, I'm going to attempt some kind of jewelling today.

Planning on using the final finish and the white LC CCS pad and extending the work time out even further. Unfortunately I appear to have misplaced my black pad.

For anyone that's done this, what kind of work time am I looking at and how long can you work FF? I guess it's all down to the required result?


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## chongo (Jun 7, 2014)

Ben_W said:


> Just to kinda go back to my original question, I'm going to attempt some kind of jewelling today.
> 
> Planning on using the final finish and the white LC CCS pad and extending the work time out even further. Unfortunately I appear to have misplaced my black pad.
> 
> For anyone that's done this, what kind of work time am I looking at and how long can you work FF? I guess it's all down to the required result?


 See most of your work will be carried out using the White pad (I take it you have hard paint) so all your doing with the black pad is trying to refine the abrasives till they can't break down any further :buffer: thus giving you the maximum gloss and finish you are looking for when jewlling :thumb: so as for work time, it's purely down to you and what your happy with, it's like Scholl S40 on a finishing White Rupes pad which I always use, it just keeps going and going till I feel it's done it's cause:thumb: I think you are going to need a soft finishing pad if you want to start jewlling :thumb:


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## Alan W (May 11, 2006)

Technically Jewelling can only be done with a finishing pad or pad with little or no cut.

However, you can still use the technique although you may not achieve quite the same results (it would probably take sophisticated equipment such as a Gloss Meter to differentiate between to 2 finishes though ).

It’s not possible to say how long a polishing set will take because there are so many variables such as paint type, amount of polish used, machine speed, pressure, machine travel speed etc.

Work the polish until nearly broken down and then slowly reduce machine speed and pressure until it goes clear. Continue to work the residue using minimum speed, slow hand movements and no pressure gradually until it all but disappears. You can even support some of the weight of the machine during the final passes to reduce the effect its weight is having on the polishing.

Keep the work area small, take your time and get a feel for the products you are using (polish and pad) and the results you are getting. It’s a learning curve and very enjoyable once you know how to get the best from a product. 

Alan W


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## Ben_W (Feb 15, 2009)

Chongo, the paint doesnt appear to be that hard actually. The white pad is the second softest in the CCS range it appears.

Alan, again, thanks. I'll order a black pad I think. Ill see what I can do with the white pad and the FF in the meantime.


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## chongo (Jun 7, 2014)

As above says, speed and little to no pressure makes a big difference when it comes to jewlling and having a closed cell pad that does not absorb the polish away from the surface of the pad and paint surface. If it was me, I would wait till I had a black pad, but it's not going to do any harm using a white pad.:thumb:


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## Ben_W (Feb 15, 2009)

Thanks fella. We go away for a week to the east coast monday so want to vet some protection on before I go....


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## mb1 (Oct 5, 2016)

is sf4500 a finishing polish on a finishing pad I not sure


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