# clearing over 2k gloss



## Aaran

anyone do this regularly?

had a play today, robelo 2h high build, cut flat with p320 then finished on p800 wet.

3 coats of PPG 2k direct gloss.

wet flatted completely flat again with p2000 morning after (paint still soft enough to mark with a nail but hard enough to wetflat and be handleable, only air dryed)

2 coats of ppg d800 clear over after wet flatting with p2000.

being a test piece i did hose the clear on (so there is a run and the odd dust nib on this and a bit of texture, plus more dust from the lane outside my workshop lol)





































looking though the clear unlike with basecoat being a flatted p2000 surface it -is- glass flat, not a single bit of texture down there, even right up against the paint. will wetflat the clear and sag out with p800 then to 2000 tomorrow and buff it up.

anyone done this before. i did play around using varying grades of paper. anything p800 or coarser on the gloss base -will- and does leave sanding marks/texture in the base that you can see once cleared over. also anything under p1200 dies off the color (makes the color dull/cloudy once cleared). my first attempts got this. you get away with this sanding clear with p800 as the new clear just sinks into the old clear scratches filling them

am i likely to have any adhesion issues with p1500 or 2000 over time or should the clear stick ok to the p2000? yes i can lay basecoat flat but you will get "some" texture in it, did it this way to see if its possible to get that mega glass flat mirror finish, but with the durability of 2k clear for the uv and scratch protection (i find 2k gloss marks to easy , especially black as the carbon pigments make the paint softer anyway) so its a forever job buffing to keep any swirls and holograms out of the paint.


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## pcm1980

I shouldn't see a problem with adhesion because the 2k direct gloss was still slightly soft, the clear would etch/chemical bond into the 2k gloss and will adhere fine with no issues. I have actually tried a similar test, but without keying the 2k gloss at all,. Glossed one day, then cleared the next. Once cured i flatted through the clear to the 2k gloss and the edge feathered out perfect.


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## toddy23

I'm doing a scooter at the minute and before any comments I didn't choose the colours but the orange is 2k straight gloss then rubbed down with a 500 disc,water base green colour painted on then cleared the whole thing only thing I'm leaving gloss is the bits with no green


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## supernova-dw

Where I live the local painters seem to like doing this! They will paint whatever it is they are painting with 2K direct gloss and then after it's touch dry lacquer over it without any flatting down at all.

Seems to come out looking ok to be honest. 

Your method should work fine but just be very time consuming.... Out of interest why do you want to do it this way over using base and lacquer?


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## Aaran

ultimate flat paint is what i am after on this particular car, i wetflat all my cars down anyway, but using base coat/cc i can get it to lay hellishly smooth and even but there is always some texture to the base (not to noticeable unless you go right up against the paint, like an inch away and look at the reflection)


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## mr paint

I do it a lot for custom work mate ...even metallic I clear flatten then re-clear 

just flatten with 6 or 800 2 coats of clear ...job done


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## mr paint

water base also has little texture in base :thumb:


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## andyrst

i did a golf 2 weeks ago, base coat then x2 coats clear left over night to cure an da sanded with 800disc an x2 coats clear an the gloss is unreal, but i would say id got better gloss if i paint it with 2k black an then sanded an recleard that.


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## Benn

I helped to paint and then flat and re clear a Lotus Cortina a few years ago.

2k DG in red, then flatted back and Cleared over the top as we wanted the deepest gloss red we could do in the std colours. Flat the clear back to be like glass.

It looked stunning. Well worth doing deping on colour and such.



Remember that 1200 and up is finishing paper (for flating to polish) 1000 and down are sanding papers and would want rebasing over. As it will keave marks on the surface.


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## Tintin

The results look very impressive. I always got the impression that nothing was considered to be as good as 2k base then 2k clear coat, but the paint on Aaron's stuff has a really deep glossy depth to it. Great work.


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## mr paint

This was 2k gloss ..sanded with 500 then 2 drop coats of xirallic in clear base ... 4 coats of clear .

sanded clear with p1000- 1200-1500-2000- then 3000 on da

This giving flat flat finish











If you need any pointers let me know mate always happy to help

Tommy


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## Aaran

tommy when you sanded yours with p500 did you just go right over it with clear?

on all my test pieces below p800 i could see sanding lines and marks from the p800 or coarser grades in the 2k gloss black which showed through the clear. was that p500 on a block wet or via a DA ?


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## toddy23

I do it wet with block and by hand but always wet cos it keeps the job clean as you go


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## toddy23

Maby the 2k wasn't hard enough and marked with 500 just do a test and leave it few days before u clear


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## SBM

sub'd

Sorry for asking the dumbest of questions but there are a lot of acronyms on this thread. Could someone explain in plain english what this is about and for?

I'm confused


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## mr paint

Aaran said:


> tommy when you sanded yours with p500 did you just go right over it with clear?
> 
> on all my test pieces below p800 i could see sanding lines and marks from the p800 or coarser grades in the 2k gloss black which showed through the clear. was that p500 on a block wet or via a DA ?


p500 Wet on block to level peel ...then even buz over with 800g on da wet

as mentioned above 2k must be cured properly

You could just do straight black b/c clear flatten with 800g and re clear ...same results

Tommy


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## mr paint

SBM said:


> sub'd
> 
> Sorry for asking the dumbest of questions but there are a lot of acronyms on this thread. Could someone explain in plain english what this is about and for?
> 
> I'm confused


We are on about paint types ...this is where a lot of people get confused

2k direct gloss = colour with clear mixed in ...mostly solid colours only except industrial silvers etc this is mixed with a hardener and little thinners .

1k = usually found in aerosols Not very good or also solvent base coat Must have clear applied over the colour coat .

2k clear / primer = 2 component system ...consists of clear and a hardener usually a little thinners to help flash off and flow out.

The objective here is to find what gives the most depth when you look into the paint and the overall flatness and shine of the panel

Tommy


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## Andyb0127

With the restorations we used to do. Most being E-type jags, we would basecoat them, apply three coats of clear. Would be left for a week. Then wet flatted with 1000 which would leave the paint open helping curing. Left for around three weeks, we would then carry on wet flatting through the grades. Then would be thoroughly cleaned and re-masked back in the oven another three coats of clear applied leaving you with a glossy flat finish. Would then be flatted through the grades and polished, I'll have to see if I can find some old photos of the cars I've restored.


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## supernova-dw

For whenever I've required a perfect finish I've simply used basecoat with lacquer, sand it off the next day either wet with 600 or dry with 500 and then lacquered over the top


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## toddy23

When I started painted most body shops used ICI paints ans clears and I was saying to a lad at work about using the old suction feed devilbiss and how you could get it like glass with no gloss drop or popping etc so in a way they defo haven't improved the clear or the guns and the old school painters will back me up,don't get me wrong the water base is defo better but something is defo missing cos today's clears you just have to slightly over apply and it pops or drops(apart from sikkens suprior )


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## peterboy

I can agree with that for sure you could get a good finnish with a JGA, but the clears were low solid types and you generally had to do a extra coat than we do now, and used more paint as the guns were hp.


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## Aaran

well first large panel came out ok.

p800 primer, flatted with p320 then p800 wet.

4 coats of PPG 2k direct gloss.

few days later p320 on the longboard dry and then p800 wet on a board again.
4 coats of ppg d800 (mixed 2;1;1) so pretty thin. did first coat, hit it again with the second 10 mins later, the next 20 mins after and the final 40 mins after that. no solvent pop so win.

wetflatted it down today, p800 wet to cut it flat, p2000 by hand on a block and then trizact 3000. came out real nice  just a shame its a fiberglass part as its flimsy as hell and trying to actually get it to cut 100% flat is a pita lol


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## Andyb0127

toddy23 said:


> When I started painted most body shops used ICI paints ans clears and I was saying to a lad at work about using the old suction feed devilbiss and how you could get it like glass with no gloss drop or popping etc so in a way they defo haven't improved the clear or the guns and the old school painters will back me up,don't get me wrong the water base is defo better but something is defo missing cos today's clears you just have to slightly over apply and it pops or drops(apart from sikkens suprior )


Totally agree mate. I started with a suction fed gun which you could get great results with. Much prefer the older style ms clears easier to work with less risk of silent boil nicer to polish. These new hs clears have marginal room for error can't be over applied, waterbase is ok depending on which one your using but has to be thoroughly dry as it can cause solvent boil aswell. Its definatly not like it used to be, I know times change and you have to move forwards. Biggest problem now is time constraints and how quick can you get the job done same old thing quantity over quality.


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## Andy-P

So, what modern clear coat can be applied with no drop in colour? 

(Not a painter, but paint wheels and small stuff although very much an interested amateur)


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## Andyb0127

Andy-P said:


> So, what modern clear coat can be applied with no drop in colour?
> 
> (Not a painter, but paint wheels and small stuff although very much an interested amateur)


Normally there's only two key factors which will make an hs clear drop back. Firstly is an extra rapid hardner has been used, speeding up drying process or drying accelerater has been added.
Secondly basecoat has been applied fairly dry, looks ok when first laquered, but during drying process the clear draws itself into basecoat causing gloss level to drop back.

Depends how much you want to spend on a decent clear laquer, quite a well rated clear is max Meyer 0300 gets good reviews on here from other painters.


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## Benn

Aaran said:


> well first large panel came out ok.
> 
> p800 primer, flatted with p320 then p800 wet.
> 
> 4 coats of PPG 2k direct gloss.
> 
> few days later p320 on the longboard dry and then p800 wet on a board again.
> 4 coats of ppg d800 (mixed 2;1;1) so pretty thin. did first coat, hit it again with the second 10 mins later, the next 20 mins after and the final 40 mins after that. no solvent pop so win.
> 
> wetflatted it down today, p800 wet to cut it flat, p2000 by hand on a block and then trizact 3000. came out real nice  just a shame its a fiberglass part as its flimsy as hell and trying to actually get it to cut 100% flat is a pita lol


You 800 your clear? Christ. I'm amazed there was any left.:doublesho


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## Scoobycarl

Seems a long process for a fibre glass body car mate,as you say they look wobbly anyhows lol


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## Andy-P

Andyb0127 said:


> Normally there's only two key factors which will make an hs clear drop back. Firstly is an extra rapid hardner has been used, speeding up drying process or drying accelerater has been added.
> Secondly basecoat has been applied fairly dry, looks ok when first laquered, but during drying process the clear draws itself into basecoat causing gloss level to drop back.


So, if the clear gets drawn back into the basecoat, is it not just a case of applying more coats of clear? Or, does the colour then drop off?


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## Aaran

Benn said:


> You 800 your clear? Christ. I'm amazed there was any left.:doublesho


i have seen guys dry flat clear starting with p320 on an ali block before.

to put it in prespetive just using p2000 or p1500 it would take me around an hour to an hour and a half to hand sand a door flat. i can use 800 and cut and level a large surface area in under 10 mins, and 20 mins on that to sand all the p800 marks out of it and work up the grades to 3000. dont forget i have 4 coats of clear down on this car so i can level with a much coarser grit to start with. a coarser grade will always cut flatter and faster than using a finer grade for longer ammount of time. trust me here i have experimented loads over the past few years

roof came out well anyho  just the rest of the car to finish now lol. (roofs been hit only with g3 ultra, no finer grades of polish on that yet)


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## Aaran

carl the majority of the car is steel, just the kit thats fiberglass


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## supernova-dw

That roof looks to have come out very nice! Don't blame you for flatting the lacquer with a coarser grade! I used to block everything with 2000 by hand and to say it takes a while is an understatement! Do it all on a DA now, p1000, 1500 and 3000 trizact and the time saving is truly incredible!


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## Scoobycarl

Aaran said:


> carl the majority of the car is steel, just the kit thats fiberglass


Oh sorry must have misread mate ! Looks flat as **** mate,what ally longboard do you use ?


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## Scoobycarl

supernova-dw said:


> That roof looks to have come out very nice! Don't blame you for flatting the lacquer with a coarser grade! I used to block everything with 2000 by hand and to say it takes a while is an understatement! Do it all on a DA now, p1000, 1500 and 3000 trizact and the time saving is truly incredible!


Do you suffer from piggy tails when da sanding fresh clear ? Is a shorter throw da sander better for this job ? I do sometimes da sand clear 1500 then 2000 norton and 3000 but the dark colours leave piggy tails from the da ? I allways wipe down first with panel wipe too ?


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## pcm1980

For polishing try use a 2.5-3mm orbital sander, larger orbit tends to inflict pigtails. Also tou will find that the paint polishes back up easier.


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## pcm1980

Also try using a water based panel wipe, solvent based ones tend to cause the sanding discs to clog up for some reason.


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## Scoobycarl

Thanks pcm good info,might treat myself to a new mirka one lol


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## 3gdean

pcm1980 said:


> For polishing try use a 2.5-3mm orbital sander, larger orbit tends to inflict pigtails. Also tou will find that the paint polishes back up easier.


LAAAAD!

p500+ 2.5mm orbit da ALWAYS!!!!

This is a well kept secret,,, p500+ you will also save 20-40% life of a disc from changing from a 5mm orbit da to 2.5mm da.

The basic theory, using a fine grade paper, the dust is fine, sanding a BIG area (orbit of da) the dust collects and gathers (a big white grain that wont clear with a wipe) creates pig tails.

2.5mm sanding a smaller area (orbit of da) dust doesn't gather and collect.

edits***Not critical wet sanding***

+++ you don't want to be putting solvent over a solvent based clear coat when it is still curing.

*** dry sanding all the way up to P3000/trizact
they will last slightly longer wet, however i've found: its difficult too see material removed, removing nibs, it has a tenancy to carry the dust/nib creating pigtails***


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## jolls

Old school cellulose used to be painted then flatted numerous times to get a glass like finish. Some purist still insist on this type of paint and finish.


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## Scoobycarl

3gdean said:


> LAAAAD!
> 
> p500+ 2.5mm orbit da ALWAYS!!!!
> 
> This is a well kept secret,,, p500+ you will also save 20-40% life of a disc from changing from a 5mm orbit da to 2.5mm da.
> 
> The basic theory, using a fine grade paper, the dust is fine, sanding a BIG area (orbit of da) the dust collects and gathers (a big white grain that wont clear with a wipe) creates pig tails.
> 
> 2.5mm sanding a smaller area (orbit of da) dust doesn't gather and collect.
> 
> edits***Not critical wet sanding***
> 
> +++ you don't want to be putting solvent over a solvent based clear coat when it is still curing.
> 
> *** dry sanding all the way up to P3000/trizact
> they will last slightly longer wet, however i've found: its difficult too see material removed, removing nibs, it has a tenancy to carry the dust/nib creating pigtails***


Do you mean start p500 with fresh clearcoat sanding ? Bit aggresive in my eyes mate but if it works then cool


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## supernova-dw

Scoobycarl said:


> Do you suffer from piggy tails when da sanding fresh clear ? Is a shorter throw da sander better for this job ? I do sometimes da sand clear 1500 then 2000 norton and 3000 but the dark colours leave piggy tails from the da ? I allways wipe down first with panel wipe too ?


If I finished off with 1500 and then mopped it with G3 then yep there would be pigtails visible if you looked side on however finishing with 3000 Trizact discs there are none and it mops up literally instantly! I quickly buzz over it with 3M P1000 Blending discs followed buy Trizact 1500 and 3000 (All damp, not wet 'wet') and then mop with G3, G10 and glaze over the top and it comes out perfect! All this paint is done outside as well, no booth, no extraction etc... Must admit the hot weather does help A LOT though!


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## 3gdean

Scoobycarl said:


> Do you mean start p500 with fresh clearcoat sanding ? Bit aggresive in my eyes mate but if it works then cool


no, i mean use a 2.5mm orbit da with p 500 and above, for preparation,,, not polishing 
5mm orbit p400 and lower


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## Scoobycarl

Got you,thought blimey thered be nowt left lol
I have put 3 wet coats on a bonnet knowing i would hit it with 1000 then 1500 da then 2000 norton 3000 trizact and results are great ! Did full front end last week on a 330 ci but was dark colour so hand it 1500 wet first as not to get pig tails then went on to norton and trizact still come out great but a little slower ! Think i will order a mirka ros625cv sander 2.5 orbit and see how that goes ?


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## 3gdean

how much is the mirka out of interest?

we also stock sanders, however we may change everything to rupes


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## Scoobycarl

Well funny you say that mate ive had a rupes skorpion for about 4 years and is a great sander still going strong but the pad perishes at the edge and the velcro lifts quite bad and is not flat anymore ! It sort of rolls up at the end so i can only use it with interface pad ! This is the 3rd pad i have put on it and at £25 to £30 a go im reluctant to buy another ! 
Mirka one is £117 free delivery on ebay mate from a best seller too i think .
Do you have a website ?


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## 3gdean

Our is a little more than mirka's,,,thought they were more than that unfortunately.

Here's our Website

http://elevationautomotive.co.uk/


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## Scoobycarl

Had a quick look and have Seen many websites like this where you cant view products and says contact us ? You cant compare prices this way and you sort of feel abliged if a rep comes out ?


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## 3gdean

Like said,,,these aren't consumer products. we give out hard copies/emails of pricelists.

prices are fixed for a year,,, not changing day to day like others (ahem 3m)

do you work in a bodyshop/independant?


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## Scoobycarl

Yes mate only a small shop tho lol


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## 3gdean

Whereabouts?

I'd say smaller shops benefit more from our products.

I will never be a typical sales man, us as a company will only push products that make a difference, either increasing efficiency or competing cost wise.


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## Scoobycarl

Sheldon in birmingham mate not too far from yorselves ? 
Do you know anthony ? Used to be a rep for roberlo but went on his own ? Think he is originaly from stafford ? He used to get us finixa stuff ? Maybe you can send us a price list mate as we loved the rotary mop and compound we ueed ?


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## 3gdean

Would probably recognise him if i saw him, hasn't been there for quite a few years though?

Sure thing! Will be free the week after next so can pop in?

Can drop you/boss mail make sure its okay.


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## squiggs

I'd hate to bring the word 'touting' into such a good thread at this stage for fear of being deleted :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## 3gdean

ill keep it clean from now on


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## squiggs

3gdean said:


> ill keep it clean from now on


I wasn't really having a pop mate - only a few people will understand my 'in' joke :thumb:


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## Scoobycarl

3gdean you have pm mate


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## Scoobycarl

Cant seem to send messages 3gdean ! Can receive them but not send ? Any of them days is fine mate thanks


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