# Whats Stopping You Buying An Electric Car?



## ardandy (Aug 18, 2006)

I'm attending a meeting next week about putting a plan together to access a government grant to encourage more people to use EV's etc. Cleaner city centres an all that.

So from people that don't own one.

1, What stops you from changing to EV?
2, What would make it easier for you to change? (Parking, charge points, incentives for business to get some in their car park)

Now you might as well leave any petrol head sort of things as that's a personal choice that no amount of infrastructure would change, it's more of a 'I would consider if this was in place' sort of question.

Remember this is relating to charging infrastructure, parking for EV's, incentives etc that will encourage people to get them, this isn't about the cars themselves. Only manufacturers can change that.

Thanks!


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

Short range, Too much forward planning, not enough performance unless you can afford a Tesla. 

Expensive unless you get a good deal.

None of them are particularly good looking either. All the main electric cars look a bit odd.


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## ardandy (Aug 18, 2006)

I always look it at from a 2 car ownership thing so they're not relevant. As an only car it changes things somewhat!


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## Rob74 (Jul 29, 2012)

Would need better range before I would get one but we have already said we will look into them more when we replace the qashqai in 3 yrs


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## Alex_225 (Feb 7, 2008)

For what I'd use an electric vehicle for, it just simply does not have the range I'd need. 

I pick up my daughter every other weekend which is a round trip of 250 miles. At the moment I tend to use my mum's, girfriend's or my car for the trip (depends who's coming with me and fuel savings! haha).

If I could buy an electric vehicle and know I could get there an back on a single charge it would be a consideration. I'm not aware of any of the EVs being capable of this so it's a no brainer. 

For the shorter journeys I do, I don't mind driving my Merc or Twingo RS as it's minimal and the fuel costs even at 17mpg don't phase me (100 miles in two weeks for example). 

To be honest my other half's Focus TDCI is the ideal option at the moment. 55mpg, comfortable and plenty quick enough. Until an EV can compete with that, I'm out!


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## Starbuck88 (Nov 12, 2013)

Kerr said:


> Short range, Too much forward planning, not enough performance unless you can afford a Tesla.
> 
> Expensive unless you get a good deal.
> 
> None of them are particularly good looking either. All the main electric cars look a bit odd.


This ^^^^^

Plus you can't pick 2nd hand electric cars up for £1,500..........Yet.

The way I see it, usually an ordinary family may have 1 nice car and 1 used car (just from what I see in my area).

I wouldn't ever think about spending money, (no matter how cheap) on any of the current electric offerings.


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

ardandy said:


> I always look it at from a 2 car ownership thing so they're not relevant. As an only car it changes things somewhat!


That's where they fall down. They aren't a one car solution.

People still need a car that can do it all.


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## Kimo (Jun 7, 2013)

Inconvenience, poor performance, no nice sound and pricy


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## muzzer (Feb 13, 2011)

Better range
Quick charge system utilising solar
Reduce the cost so they affordable

They are the main things that stop me buying one, the cost is the major factor though. The only one apart from a Tesla that interested me was the Vauxhall Ampera but even that was in excess of 30k


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## ardandy (Aug 18, 2006)

I pay £200pm with a £500 deposit so cost isn't what it used to be.


Any ideas on what infrastructure you'd like to see. If all council car parks had free charge points and parking would that encourage take up do you think?

Ignore you're own personal situation for a sec, what would you spend the money on if it was there and this was the job you were given.

In my head it has to be financially viable for people to consider it. For example I go to Manchester instead of Leeds (1 hour to both from my door) because I can charge at nearly any car park for free whilst I'm there.


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## baxlin (Oct 8, 2007)

As above, really, range, looks and price.

I'm halfway there with a Lexus regen hybrid, which scores in stop-start traffic with its EV mode, but it has a rather short EV range. So it's the 2.5 ltr petrol engine that fills the long distance requirement.

So maybe a plug-in hybrid, with longer EV range, and a petrol engine as a back-up could be the answer?


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## ardandy (Aug 18, 2006)

Fast forward 2 years and 150-200mile will be normal for new EV's. Another 5 years it'll be 250-300 so it'll get there.

Is yours a plug in?


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## Harry_p (Mar 18, 2015)

Range concerns, particularly in winter with heater + lights + wipers etc.

Performance ( or lack of )

Nowhere to charge at home ( parked on the road ) 

Nowhere to charge at work

Hastle of having to mes around with cables and plug it in every time you park instead of a five minute fuel stop once a week.

Price, and concerns about long term reliability and battery life. They might cost pennies to run, but a four figure sum to replace the batteries at some stage will sting a bit.

They all look a bit odd. Why do they all have to look 'wacky' and futuristic which will no doubt age really badly. The tesla is a decent looking car, and the i8 and i3 do the futuristic thing quite well, but I dot think much of any of the others.


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## baxlin (Oct 8, 2007)

ardandy said:


> I can charge at nearly any car park for free whilst I'm there.


But it's not free, is it?

Someone, somewhere is paying for it. Maybe you don't pay anything, but the electricity has to be generated and distributed, at a cost, not only monetary cost, as there's pylons everywhere, not to mention windfarms, the latter paid for very dearly, it seems to me.

I'm all for efficiency, but not at any price, including visual pollution. Having said that, I'm quite happy with fields of solar panels, as you can't really see them until you're on top of them, and I understand they are quite efficient, too

Maybe I'm giving a mixed message here, but that's the point, nothing is just black or just white, there's always a trade-off, and no free lunches......

Malcolm

Edit: if you were asking if mine is plug in, no, I described it as a 'regen hybrid' - ie it recharges on the over-run and light braking.


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## ardandy (Aug 18, 2006)

Harry_p said:


> Range concerns, particularly in winter with heater + lights + wipers etc.
> 
> Performance ( or lack of )
> 
> ...


So if there was a grant to help you install a road pole mounted charger that could possibly help.

Work incentives to install chargers.

Performance? 110bhp with full torque at 0 revs isn't slow. Not fast either but you get my point.

As for reliability.
The Nissan Leaf in Dec gets a range upgrade and comes with an 8 year, 100k warranty. If the battery is leased its covered for life.
Tesla have an 8 year UNLIMITED mileage warranty!

Beats a normal car hands down from new!


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## suspal (Dec 29, 2011)

Daft question  this stuff got none.


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## Bero (Mar 9, 2008)

They need to be all-round compelling, at the moment they're marginal as a second car and pretty useless as an only car IMHO.

We live in a world of supermarkets selling ready washed salad and grated cheese...and if that's too difficult squeezable cheese. Nobody actively wants an extra faf, longer 'refill' times or range anxiety. EV already has all this working against it compared to an ICE, then the initial cost, they're not cheap.

As with all choices it needs to be the best for a person in their circumstances, 2nd, 3rd etc is no use......and before you start it has a few negatives and the only positive is it 'costs less' to run (but more to buy). The rest IMHO will be peoples general inertia, whether they stick with one car model, or one brand that may not have a compelling alternative. Not to mention looks....show me a good looking on EV.....or show me a sporty EV under £60k.

They have a long way to go....but I think EV will get there.

I'm currently wiring my garage and putting in a cable to 'future proof', I'm considering one as a second car next year. New leaf will be out and have a better range, hopefully hitting the 2nd hand prices of the older ones, but the Govt grant my be killed off before then......

Of course when life cycle cost is the biggest driver (the people that would be attracted to the current EV) they currently don't beat a 2nd hand small derv in most cases.


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## ardandy (Aug 18, 2006)

baxlin said:


> But it's not free, is it?
> 
> Someone, somewhere is paying for it. Maybe you don't pay anything, but the electricity has to be generated and distributed, at a cost, not only monetary cost, as there's pylons everywhere, not to mention windfarms, the latter paid for very dearly, it seems to me.
> 
> Malcolm


It costs me nothing to charge and is there whether I use it or not. So yes it is free. If it puts my tax somewhere up by x amount I still have to pay it regardless of useage.

It's like the NHS. It's not free of course as we pay through taxes but most say its free as it is free at the point of sale (or whatever its called).


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## ardandy (Aug 18, 2006)

Bero said:


> They need to be all-round compelling, at the moment they're marginal as a second car and pretty useless as an only car IMHO.
> 
> We live in a world of supermarkets selling ready washed salad and grated cheese...and if that's too difficult squeezable cheese. Nobody actively wants an extra faf, longer 'refill' times or range anxiety. EV already has all this working against it compared to an ICE, then the initial cost, they're not cheap.
> 
> ...


Golf GTE is good looking and is a PHEV.

As for the garage cable you just need a spare thingy at the consumer unit that they directly wire it to. They don't use plug sockets for an actual fast charger.


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## ardandy (Aug 18, 2006)

So. Back OT!

If your council got a few million and HAD to spend it on encouraging people into EV's, how would you like to see it spent? The car's shortcomings aren't in discussion as far is this is concerned.


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## m4rkymark (Aug 17, 2014)

I wouldn't buy one because I don't believe they are here for the future. I don't believe we have the correct infrastructure nor the capacity for electricity genertation in the country to charge 36 million cars as well as do what it does now.


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## ardandy (Aug 18, 2006)

So infrastructure is where you'd want to see the money spent?


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## muzzer (Feb 13, 2011)

ardandy said:


> I pay £200pm with a £500 deposit so cost isn't what it used to be.
> 
> Any ideas on what infrastructure you'd like to see. If all council car parks had free charge points and parking would that encourage take up do you think?
> 
> ...


That's my main issue with EV right now, performance versus outlay. Now i don't expect an average EV to do 200 mph and to be honest, my days of tearing around like my hair is on fire are behind me but 200 mile range? Right now i do 300 a week just to and from work and for something that is going to cost me that much per month, i need to be able to jump in and go, not worry about if it has charged or not. If they could make the car recharge off solar power as you went along, so the range was variable, then i would seriously consider one as long as the local councils played ball as per your post. Otherwise, i'll stick to good old fossil fuel for now. If i win the lottery then a Tesla will be in my garage.


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## 182_Blue (Oct 25, 2005)

When they are better looking, fast enough, can be recharged instantly at a 'pump' or charge themselves as they go then I can't see me getting one, I. Dont think today's electric car is the answer to our problem, our future is a car that is like the most frugal petrol/diesel cars but runs without the emission problems etc of those two, hybrid( not the current type) hydrogen fuel cell type cars maybe?


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

A lot of people aren't happy leasing cars. They want to buy and own them. Lease deals and normally only really strong when dealers have cars they need to move.

What is the real list price of the Leaf if you want to buy it and the batteries? £26,000 or thereabouts for the base model? 

The price is lower because of incentives thrown in. £5000 right away from the government. They can't afford to do that if there was a boom in sales. They did the same thing will solar panel roofs. 

How many parking spaces can you allocate to electric cars? I'd be unhappy to go into a car park and find spaces I couldn't use reserved for electric cars.

Likewise I'd have an issue owning an electric car and not being able to charge. 

If they do get popular, you are likely to get caught short at some point. 

There's only so much money the government can spend on electric cars and all the infrastructure from tax payers money without the owners of electric cars paying for it themselves.


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## ardandy (Aug 18, 2006)

muzzer42 said:


> ...my days of tearing around like my hair is on fire are behind me....


You still have hair? :doublesho

The Tesla model 3 will be around £25-£30k and comes out end 2017. 200-250mile range! You'd only have to plug it in once a week.

I plug in at home 2-3 times a week and it's not a drag. Takes about 30 secs.

Get out, grab cable, plug in.


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## ardandy (Aug 18, 2006)

Kerr said:


> A lot of people aren't happy leasing cars. They want to buy and own them. Lease deals and normally only really strong when dealers have cars they need to move.
> 
> What is the real list price of the Leaf if you want to buy it and the batteries? £26,000 or thereabouts for the base model?


If I bought mine outright it would have been £22k after government and Nissan contributions.

What you need to factor in though is that I've just hit 5000miles and I've spent £75 on electric costs (measured by home charger). At 50mpg that would cost around £500.

Assume you do the average 36,000miles in 3 years that's over £3500 saved.
The price is now down to £18,500. Still expensive if you buy outright but the longer you have it the more you save. I'm averaging 20k a year so will save £6,000 over 3 years compared to the Fiesta I replaced it with (as in useage).

Factor in an 8 year 100k warranty too! More tempting than people think.



Kerr said:


> How many parking spaces can you allocate to electric cars? I'd be unhappy to go into a car park and find spaces I couldn't use reserved for electric cars.


The parking bays are for EV CHARGING only, not EV parking. Most EV owners abuse this IME!


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## Bero (Mar 9, 2008)

ardandy said:


> Golf GTE is good looking and is a PHEV.
> 
> As for the garage cable you just need a spare thingy at the consumer unit that they directly wire it to. They don't use plug sockets for an actual fast charger.


You need a suitable feed to the garage, a suitable space/breaker in the consumer unit and a suitable cable from there to the charging point. I have it covered :thumb:

To answer the question on what councils should spend their money on. I would say awareness.

There are already plenty of under utilised charging spots, and most people doing most journeys wont NEED to charge while away from home.

What needs improved is awareness. Awareness of the technology, awareness of the benefits and awareness of charger availability.

Another point but I parked at a hotel recently. Parked in an EV space by the door to unload my stuff. I spoke to the check-in staff and mentioned where I parked and that I would move in a minute....they said it had been used once in 9 months just stay where I was. No doubt the charger was put in at big expense and with a significant grant of public money.


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## Starbuck88 (Nov 12, 2013)

If the Leaf works for you, then that is great. It fits your lifestyle, your means, your access to charging points as it will, many other people. 

For thousands/millions of drivers though, it does not.

Where I live, although only a couple of years old, the developer who manages the buildings and facilities would not currently entertain a charging point. Therefore I have NO access to conveniently charge an EV at home.

Access to fast chargers, I would have to do a 30 mile round trip to get to one and waste time waiting for it to charge. 

It's a no go, non starter from the get go.

Not to mention, you can't go out with a few grand in your pocket and pick one up cheap. The everyday person who doesn't want lease, doesn't want finance, can't buy one, by the time they drop to those levels...what happens to the batterys? Are they just knackered, does the 2nd owner pick up a battery 'lease' etc.

It's all far far far too much hassle and far too wasteful.

If you had mentioned Hydrogen however, something that can be poured into your car, that gives you equal too or greater mileage than petrol/diesel and more manufacturers had made them...then that's where my money would be.

I see 2 routes to a different 'Fuel Type' Electric and Hydrogen. For me the logistics of hydrogen getting to petrol stations etc seems tricky however the new tech that is being shown recently (pouring just water into your fuel tank)...means electric cars might bridge the gap...but not fully be 'The Norm'.

IMHO.


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## ardandy (Aug 18, 2006)

Any car that's sold with a battery lease has that lease for life! 

So in 10 years if my car is still around someone has to pay £80pm for the battery. It means if it degrades it gets replaced but that's still a monthly cost.

Also means dealers have to carry on paying £80pm until its sold too!

The early gen models are going to be worthless when supplanted by double range ones etc.


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## Starbuck88 (Nov 12, 2013)

ardandy said:


> Any car that's sold with a battery lease has that lease for life!
> 
> So in 10 years if my car is still around someone has to pay £80pm for the battery. It means if it degrades it gets replaced but that's still a monthly cost.
> 
> ...


Who really wants to keep paying £80 a month on a car they may have paid 2 or 3k for in 5 years time?

If people aren't happy paying £150 - £200 for a lease, they aren't going to want to be paying an additional cost.

Even though it should all work out cheaper than petrol yadda yadda, it's the mindset.

When you park a petrol car up for a month, it costs you your tax and insurance, now with the electric car, it costs you for the batteries even when you aren't using them.


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## martin.breslin (Apr 23, 2015)

I would love one, but cant afford them and id only be interested in the tesla sports car. Until them in stuck in poverty and will have to make do with unfriendly dinosaur remains.


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## Bero (Mar 9, 2008)

Starbuck88 said:


> If the Leaf works for you, then that is great. It fits your lifestyle, your means, your access to charging points as it will, many other people.


That's the thing I _could_ manage with one....but I'm not sure I WANT to life with it :lol:

We'll see what next year brings....


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## Starbuck88 (Nov 12, 2013)

Bero said:


> That's the thing I _could_ manage with one....but I'm not sure I WANT to life with it :lol:
> 
> We'll see what next year brings....


Luckily, you don't have to and if you don't really want to, why bother?


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## ardandy (Aug 18, 2006)

Starbuck88 said:


> Who really wants to keep paying £80 a month on a car they may have paid 2 or 3k for in 5 years time?
> 
> If people aren't happy paying £150 - £200 for a lease, they aren't going to want to be paying an additional cost.
> 
> ...


RCI finance do all the Renault and Nissan stuff and they're going to end up with a boat load of EV's that no one wants to buy! The dealer said he's sold more this year than the previous combined and most on the batt lease (as it's cheaper - £120pm for car, £80pm for batt).

I'm just handing mine back!

They must have a plan as they will have known whats coming up in the next 1-2 years when these leases start to end. Nissan guy I spoke to said a fair few end up abroad. Not sure where.


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## cadmunkey (Jun 8, 2015)

Not just mileage range of the vehicle (because this seems to be improving with time) but generally they are God awful to look at. Take BMWs i3 or Kias Soul for example, who designs the aesthetics of these things?? I'm pretty sure even their salesmen are embarrased to try and sell them.


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## millns84 (Jul 5, 2009)

Absolutely nothing is stopping me from buying an electric car...

Although there's no electric cars which are big enough for our family wagon (VW Caddy Maxi) so there's actually no option at the moment. For my own car... I wanted a supercharged V8 so I bought one :lol:


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## ardandy (Aug 18, 2006)

This is what I'm expecting to change peoples minds on EV.

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/tesla/87867/tesla-model-3-to-debut-in-march-2016


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## ardandy (Aug 18, 2006)

millns84 said:


> Absolutely nothing is stopping me from buying an electric car...
> 
> Although there's no electric cars which are big enough for our family wagon (VW Caddy Maxi) so there's actually no option at the moment. For my own car... I wanted a supercharged V8 so I bought one :lol:


Here you go!

http://www.nissan.co.uk/GB/en/vehicle/electric-vehicles/e-nv200-evalia-e-nv200-combi.html


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## Tricky Red (Mar 3, 2007)

Nothing at all. My Golf GTE is in the works car park right now.


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## ardandy (Aug 18, 2006)

What MPG you getting?


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## Starbuck88 (Nov 12, 2013)

ardandy said:


> This is what I'm expecting to change peoples minds on EV.
> 
> http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/tesla/87867/tesla-model-3-to-debut-in-march-2016


It's still going to be too expensive and unless the battery tech is very very very good...where will the trickle down be to used buyers?

You've still got one of the worst problems to contend with...Choice.

The current Tesla models look a bit bland, does anybody know what the model 3 is going to look like yet?


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## Alfieharley1 (Jun 8, 2014)

For me it is literally down to where I live. If I could get a charge point at my allocated space I'd have one tomorrow


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## Andyg_TSi (Sep 6, 2013)

What stopping me:

1. EV'S (the tesla) aside look a bit 'noddy car' esque, no offence intended. If manufacturers offered an EV variant of their best selling models, I think they'd have more sales.....Think Ford Focus, VW Golf available as 100% electric

2. Whilst there are incentives available to get into an EV, it's only really viable I f you can afford a brand new vehicle. Lots of people can't afford brand new & it's not currently feasible to buy a 100% EV 2nd hand.

3. Only really viable to have an EV if you have off road parking, so you can charge at home. If you have to park kerbside outside your home, What are the legalities of having a charging cable that crosses a public pathway or pavement.....what happens if someone trips over the cable....are you liable to be sued if someone injures themselves?

If the infrastructure was in place & people had charging points kerbside it wouldn't be an issue.....unless some scroat pinches your charge cable.


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## AndyED (Jul 14, 2014)

I'm waiting on the Tesla 3, a Leaf with 200+ mile range, or a lottery win for the Model S, before going EV. The others really don't do anything for me. Charging infrastructure is growing, and I want to enjoy some "free" motoring before the kill joys in London stick a new tax on them. As long as there's a "free" public charge within a decent distance of home and work, I'd happily put up with the perceived inconvenience of it taking more than a few minutes to fill up.


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## millns84 (Jul 5, 2009)

ardandy said:


> Here you go!
> 
> http://www.nissan.co.uk/GB/en/vehicle/electric-vehicles/e-nv200-evalia-e-nv200-combi.html


Hadn't seen that previously, but we did look at the standard NV200 before ordering the Caddy Maxi and thought it was a bit smaller than what we'd have liked... Do-able though, just that the Caddy Maxi felt a bit more spacious.


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## m4rkymark (Aug 17, 2014)

ardandy said:


> Here you go!
> 
> http://www.nissan.co.uk/GB/en/vehicle/electric-vehicles/e-nv200-evalia-e-nv200-combi.html


why would anyone want to be seen in one of those  - that's about as stylish as a comb-over.


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## pantypoos (Aug 7, 2014)

ardandy said:


> So. Back OT!
> 
> If your council got a few million and HAD to spend it on encouraging people into EV's, how would you like to see it spent? The car's shortcomings aren't in discussion as far is this is concerned.


So far i have found that when people drive and use an electric car they find that many of their initial worries about them disappear, the more people who try the electric cars the more people get used to them and get over the fear of something different.

In my opinion the best way to encourage use of electric cars is to get bums on seats, so i think the best way to spend the money would be to buy a load of cars and set up schemes to offer them out to people to try for free.


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## Rayaan (Jun 1, 2014)

1) No charge points near where I live so ideally Id want the car to be fully charged in 3-4 hours and have 500 miles of range at 80% (Tesla recommended charging)

2) Trade off has to happen somewhere. With Tesla, its their interior quality, its genuinely crap for a £70-80k car. If they manage to get interior quality to a good standard and make battery packs cheaper it'd be better.

3) I need 300 miles to be 300 miles - last time I drove a Tesla I was told I can only charge to 80% to prolong battery life so that leaves me 240 miles. However, in Tesla speak, 240 miles is not 240 miles, battery goes flat in about 200 and you end up worrying about charging. With my previous cars, my range always seems to go down slower than the mileage I have driven which is always nice.

4) There's always the concern of battery pack capacity reducing. 

5) TAX is inevitable - once people start getting EV's - 2 things will happen. The grant will be scrapped and they'll start taxing EV's claiming that their production results in a lot of pollution or something like that.


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## transtek (Mar 2, 2007)

muzzer42 said:


> Better range
> *Quick charge system utilising solar*
> Reduce the cost so they affordable
> 
> They are the main things that stop me buying one, the cost is the major factor though. The only one apart from a Tesla that interested me was the Vauxhall Ampera but even that was in excess of 30k


This could be the future. If you could get EVs that quickly charged themselves using highly efficient solar panels (something to come in the future maybe?), then that would be the perfect solution!


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## ardandy (Aug 18, 2006)

Andyg_TSi said:


> What stopping me:
> 
> 1. EV'S (the tesla) aside look a bit 'noddy car' esque, no offence intended. If manufacturers offered an EV variant of their best selling models, I think they'd have more sales.....Think Ford Focus, VW Golf available as 100% electric
> 
> If the infrastructure was in place & people had charging points kerbside it wouldn't be an issue.....unless some scroat pinches your charge cable.


You can buy a full electric golf called the e-golf and full ev Up and there's also a full electric focus.


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## Kriminal (Jan 11, 2007)

I'd feel I'd have to be driving it like a granny to get any decent mileage from a top-up; especially if I'm unsure of where the next 'charge point' is going to be on my journey.

I have enough issues with having to charge my phone, let alone remembering to charge the bloomin' car too!

I'll also need a CD to put in the car that just plays the sound of a V8 engine being driven....silence is deadly.


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## m4rkymark (Aug 17, 2014)

transtek said:


> This could be the future. If you could get EVs that quickly charged themselves using highly efficient solar panels (something to come in the future maybe?), then that would be the perfect solution!


If you live where I do in Scotland and had to rely on solar panels it would be a complete waste of time, you would only be able to charge your car half the year.


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## PugIain (Jun 28, 2006)

I'm interested when they become independent of the wall socket (oh yeah, and cheaper!)
When I can go out and not worry about the dash telling me I've only got 300 yards range and I need to book an overnight hotel twice on the way to and from a holiday so it can charge.
Surely one exists that uses the rotation of the wheels to charge the batteries?, someone must have thought of that one.


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## ardandy (Aug 18, 2006)

I've done 310 miles in one go so not quite as bad as you think. They all use brake regen already.


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## Clancy (Jul 21, 2013)

Currently too expensive, they also seem to make them all look hideous !? Instead of just making a normal looking cad that's electric 

I'm not keen on how they drive though, I like the feel of a petrol engine. The two electric/hybrids I've driven have been completely lifeless


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## Guitarjon (Jul 13, 2012)

I've looked into it for the wife's car (second car). Things that have stopped me.

I live in a terraced house with no offroad parking therefore charging at home not possible. 

Range isn't far enough yet. It would need to do at least 200+ for me to be satisfied.

I've driven electric cars and found performance adequet. My friend has a Zoe. Nice and torqy and aside from body roll (a lot) is handled well due to the weight been very low in the car. Car in general felt very flimsy (typical cheap renault though). I guess parts were lightened because the rest of the car is very heavy.


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## Bristle Hound (May 31, 2009)

Still considering the Renault Zoe EV, especially when the deal is as good as this -
http://www.evanshalshaw.com/brands/...low-payment/?gclid=CLXG1YrszsYCFcNZ2wodwX0B7Q

Decisions, decisions ... :driver:


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## white91 (Feb 11, 2011)

Price is the barrier


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## Guitarjon (Jul 13, 2012)

Wow prices are even better now! My friend bought his outright as an ex demonstrator. Insides are very comfy and nice. Just the amount of cheap plastic and fittings I didn't like. Have you tried one yet?


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

Bristle Hound said:


> Still considering the Renault Zoe EV, especially when the deal is as good as this -
> http://www.evanshalshaw.com/brands/...low-payment/?gclid=CLXG1YrszsYCFcNZ2wodwX0B7Q
> 
> Decisions, decisions ... :driver:


Buy a Renault Twizy.

It looks more fun.


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## ardandy (Aug 18, 2006)

People are mentioning costs when you can get an ev for £130pm with practically no deposit. 

Then it's looks. 

You can get golfs, focus's, UP's and then you have the hybrid plug ins which are all normal cars. There's only the Leaf, Zoe (which is basically a slightly different Clio) and i3 that are non standard models (normal price bracket).


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## NeilG40 (Jan 1, 2009)

I've probably already mentioned it in some other thread but I've had my Leaf Tekna for a week and half now and don't regret it one bit. The absence of any engine noise is great after having a diesel and the instant torque is handy for pulling out of junctions.


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## SteveTDCi (Feb 8, 2006)

For me it's the charging infrastructure and the range.

Charging at the moment is a no go in my town, there is nowhere, if electric cars take off then there are not enough charging points available. 

Range, now it is possible to drive long distances with a lot of planning, however on the 4 day leaf demo we had we still struggled with the range, we would have to charge every day despite our trip being 30 miles a day, the wife's lead foot and desire to break the sound barrier meant there wasn't enough charge to make 3 days and during the winter it would only be worse.

If they could eek out a genuine 100/115 miles based on it being driven at 75mph with the heating on then it would take off.


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## Caledoniandream (Oct 9, 2009)

I was for business in Holland and noticed that many councils in the bigger cities, offered free parking and charging for EV in the main parking garages.
This would be for a lot of people a solution, similar if you could charge it at work and have a guaranteed parking space at little or no charge.

People give you the excuse for range, but how many people drive less than 10.000 mile a year?
How many days a year will you drive more than 300 mile? And for the occasions that you drive more than 300 mile, would you be able to find a solution?

I think if charging infrastructure improved substantial
Wireless charging became possible (special for people without a drive way, or living in a flat) so that the parking space became "energised" 
Faster charging
Companies subsidised by Governement grand to make more parking spaces for EV and reduce parking spaces for conventional vehicles.
Governement bodies who make and example, and put their employees into EV's.
Than the situation should improve.

I believe it's the future, if we like it or not, but it has to be made possible for all to use, and not the lucky few who have the possibility to charge their car on the drive.
Cities should promote the use of EV's with "pollution free" lanes for EV's to drive without any hindrance or traffic jams, free parking in city centres, and for conventional vehicles only parking outside the city centre.
There is a lot to do, to promote the use.

But as everybody know, in the end we get the bill, when we all change to EV's; the Governement will tax us to dead with our EV's and our infrastructure.


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## JBirchy (Oct 9, 2010)

For me, the thing stopping me is the driving dynamics compared with the petrol engine. I love revving my GTI's motor out up to 7k rpm and the DSG gearbox parping on upshifts. I love the urgency of a good petrol engine in it's power band and as an every day proposition, it's superb. I'm even averaging 38mpg in mine so it's not too bad at all.

I use it for work and regularly have 300 mile + days. 

That said, a good mate of mine has just taken delivery of a Tesla Model S P85 D+ and he's taking me out on Sunday in it. I might well yet be convinced.

I love the idea of instantaneous tongue, but it's the assault on the senses that I feel the EV's might lack that would stop me buying one.


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## SteveTDCi (Feb 8, 2006)

JBirchy said:


> I love the idea of instantaneous tongue, but it's the assault on the senses


Erm wrong forum ?


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## Shug (Jul 13, 2007)

I applied for a job that would have seen me commute 50 miles each way and would have considered ev if I had gotten it (I cycle to current job as its only 3 miles)
What would have been an issue was charging at home. The employer in question had charging stations, but no idea how I'd charge it at home. So (vehicle cost aside) it'd be down to infrastructure as I'd need to park on the street. That will be a sticking point for most as they'd want to get home, plug in and forget it til morning. 
As it is, I ditched the daily driver (as I don't daily drive) and just have my Manta now. If I needed a daily, I would consider an EV. The manta is for fun, not commuting.


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## Tricky Red (Mar 3, 2007)

Tricky Red said:


> Nothing at all. My Golf GTE is in the works car park right now.


Although I can't charge every night as we are having lots of building work done, I am still getting around 50mpg in hybrid mode.

I am only charging up at weekends and using the onboard battery management to recharge mostly.

In full hybrid mode (ICE and EV) I am getting upper 60s, lower 70s. I drove to Nottingham last week and used half the range and managed 95mpg.


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## f4780y (Jun 8, 2015)

individual journey range and overall power cell life for me. 
I do 70 miles round trip commute daily, and regular weekend jaunts of 100+ miles.


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## muzzer (Feb 13, 2011)

I must admit, as someone correctly said, they are the future but as i live in a first floor flat, charging is a little difficult.


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## Bero (Mar 9, 2008)

I like the idea of the Tesla 3...will be interesting to see how it looks.....although a cheap Model S might be better!

I disagree with whoever said the interior of the current Tesla is poor, I was very impressed when I was in one. I would not say it was behind other cars in the price bracket.



Andyg_TSi said:


> 2. Whilst there are incentives available to get into an EV, it's only really viable I f you can afford a brand new vehicle. Lots of people can't afford brand new & it's not currently feasible to buy a 100% EV 2nd hand.


why do you think that?!?!



PugIain said:


> Surely one exists that uses the rotation of the wheels to charge the batteries?, someone must have thought of that one.


lol, you would be a multi gazillionaire overnight if you could beat the conservation of energy law! EV cars do use the rotation of the wheels to recover some energy when you want to slow down.



Caledoniandream said:


> People give you the excuse for range, but how many people drive less than 10.000 mile a year?
> How many days a year will you drive more than 300 mile? And for the occasions that you drive more than 300 mile, would you be able to find a solution?


Yes...but the point it people don't currently have to 'plan' or 'manage' or 'find a solution', their current car does not need any of this.

I could live without a washing machine, DA buffer or electric drill. But modern technology means I don't have to. In this specific aspect EV is a step back.


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## NeilG40 (Jan 1, 2009)

For me personally I'd argue that it's more convenient, I just plug the car in when I pull into the drive and don't have to think about driving to the petrol station.


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## Starbuck88 (Nov 12, 2013)

Wonder if any have come up with an idea where by a set of efficient alternators or 'something new' that could be driven by the wheels whilst in 'forward' motion of the vehicle, in order to charge the batteries up.

Hence keeping the batteries always charged = never run out = unlimited mileage = perpetual energy.


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## Caledoniandream (Oct 9, 2009)

Starbuck88 said:


> Wonder if any have come up with an idea where by a set of efficient alternators or 'something new' that could be driven by the wheels whilst in 'forward' motion of the vehicle, in order to charge the batteries up.
> 
> Hence keeping the batteries always charged = never run out = unlimited mileage = perpetual energy.


 If you could create a perpetual motion, you would be on a winner, and you could ask any price for your idea.
The problem is loss and resistance, e.g. You can never generate more energy than you put in.
Nuclear fusion is coming close to that, but I don't think that would be ever available in a car.
Even the most efficient alternator has loss in resistance and thus creating waste heat. 
Even efficient alternators only deliver 70% efficiency.


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## Amattyc (Jun 9, 2015)

My petrol car ️


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## Starbuck88 (Nov 12, 2013)

May sound silly as my idea probably already does, what if we could take inspiration from the industrial era and use some sort of 'gearing' that would reduce resistance or spin alternators faster in order to keep up with the level of discharging...

Instead of looking to future tech, look at ideas already achieved in history?


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## ardandy (Aug 18, 2006)

Gearing is irrelevant. Energy in will always be greater than energy out.

A perpetual motion engine would never need a charge!

Anytime I take my foot off the accelerator and/or brake it generates energy. On a steep enough hill above 30ish the car generates around 30kwh.


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## Starbuck88 (Nov 12, 2013)

ardandy said:


> Gearing is irrelevant. Energy in will always be greater than energy out.
> [/url]


Why would it be irrelevant if it was done in a manner that would allow for it to over compensate for the losses or as close as much too it?

Even if a system could increase the range from 200 miles to 500miles that'd be a big jump?


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## Tricky Red (Mar 3, 2007)

Starbuck88 said:


> Why would it be irrelevant if it was done in a manner that would allow for it to over compensate for the losses or as close as much too it?
> 
> Even if a system could increase the range from 200 miles to 500miles that'd be a big jump?


Because you cannot reduce losses due to heat, friction etc, ever. There would need to be massive investment for mediocre incremental improvement which to get back would cause the cars themselves to be even more prohibitively expensive.

Even with gearing you would have losses at every level.


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## Andyg_TSi (Sep 6, 2013)

Bero said:


> why do you think that?!?!


You can currently get into a decent looked after petrol or diesel car for as little as say £1500, if you want to go along with 'bangernomics'
If your on a budget & need a car you can do so cheaply & have trouble free motoring providing you've looked around and chosen the right car with documented history etc.

How reliable are 100% EV'S in terms of longevity
Whats the current life of the batteries fitted to EV's & how expensive is it to replace the batteries on them?

If I'm wrong, I'd gladly eat humble pie, but I don't see how someone on a budget can currently work on bangernomics with 100% EV's, when you consider the current limited availability of EV's as mainstream options

Granted, maybe in the future, the landscape will change though

:thumb:


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## ardandy (Aug 18, 2006)

The leaf in December will come with an 8 year 100k mile warranty. Tesla's come with 8 year unlimited mile warranty. 

Barely any moving parts (no gears in a leaf!) so v reliable.


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## ardandy (Aug 18, 2006)

Do the maths over 2 years. I'll base it on my current mileage. 

Banger £1500 + £200pm in fuel at 50mpg - Total £6,300
EV (Zoe) £130pm (£75 dep) +£30pm fuel - Total £3,915

Also add repairs, tyres and mot to banger. New ev will have none!


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## Andyg_TSi (Sep 6, 2013)

Andy, 

How long are the batteries predicted to last & how much will the batteries cost to replace once they lose their ability to recharge/hold a charge etc?


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## ardandy (Aug 18, 2006)

Most people are leasing the batteries so if you are they're covered for life. 70% efficiency at 10 years I think is predicted.

There's a taxi rank in Cornwall c&c taxis who use leafs. They have done over 100k miles in at least 3 of them using nothing but rapid chargers and still have 98% batt health.

http://evfleetworld.co.uk/news/2015/May/Taxi-company-hits-100000-mile-landmark-with-LEAF/0438019955

Theres something like 148 cells in each leaf and since released Nissan have only had to replace 2 out of all sold in the world! That's cells, not batteries.


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## ardandy (Aug 18, 2006)




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## Andyg_TSi (Sep 6, 2013)

That's brilliant, a lot better than I thought!!.

As time moves on & the tech gets better making battery life even longer & range improving, it makes it a more feasible prospect.

I was thinking that if you bought an 8 year old 2nd hand EV & the batteries failed you'd be looking at thousands to replace the batteries!


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## ardandy (Aug 18, 2006)

If you needed to replace them its around £4000! Tbh I can't see many people keeping them 8+ years yet given how cheap it is to get a new one each 2-3years. 

EV's are like phones, who wants a 5 year old phone!


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## uruk hai (Apr 5, 2009)

Cost of purchase.


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## Bero (Mar 9, 2008)

Andyg_TSi said:


> You can currently get into a decent looked after petrol or diesel car for as little as say £1500, if you want to go along with 'bangernomics'
> If your on a budget & need a car you can do so cheaply & have trouble free motoring providing you've looked around and chosen the right car with documented history etc.
> 
> How reliable are 100% EV'S in terms of longevity
> ...


You're right :thumb: I missread your quote


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## robertdon777 (Nov 3, 2005)

The Price at the moment didn't quite add up to what I neede a car for. It was close though as I only needed a run around for 2 years.

In the end I went for a C1 1.2 Airscape over a Zoe or Leaf. Purely down to the maths and the EV lost out by about 15 quid a month (on lease deals)

I will look again though in 18 months and if I need a run about I may go EV but again it would have to be against something like the Citroen Cactus deal at present which are around 100 quid a month with very little deposit for the 1.6 HDi (approx. 90mpg so say 65mpg real world) would come in for me at my mileage of about £140 a month including fuel.


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## ardandy (Aug 18, 2006)

As in cash buyer no finance?

Mine was £16,600 with £80pm batt lease. £21,000ish with no batt lease.


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## Andyg_TSi (Sep 6, 2013)

ardandy said:


> If you needed to replace them its around £4000! Tbh I can't see many people keeping them 8+ years yet given how cheap it is to get a new one each 2-3years.
> 
> EV's are like phones, who wants a 5 year old phone!


But that comes back to my initial reply to Bero.

Let's assume for one moment that all major cities imposed a London style congestion charge in their city cdntres with ev's being exempt, so people look round for a cheap 2nd hand EV & they can only afford to spend £1500 - £2000 & can't afford a new car.

They go out & find a 8 year old EV & then out of bad luck the batteries fail within a year of ownership & face a £4000 bill to replace them (not leasing the batteries)......may as well have kept the dinosaur juice guzzler & got the bus into town

I'm not trying to put a downer on EV'S her by the way lol


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## ardandy (Aug 18, 2006)

As you said with gas guzzler if you do research and find and good one there should be little issue. Plus I can find out my SOH (State of health) anytime so easy to check, unlike an engine which you can only go off its history to see how good it is. 

That's also £4000 now from a dealer. In 8 years they'll be loads around at a far cheaper price. 

Also back to my original point that even a new EV is cheaper than a £1500 banger with less initial money needed. Don't forget fuel/congestion/tax costs.


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## Andyg_TSi (Sep 6, 2013)

EV's / Hybrids & possibly hydrogen fuel cell powered vehicles are definitely the future of motoring.

We only have to look at the increasingly tough EU imposed targets for improving air quality in city centres, which is a big driver of taxing us out of our petrol/diesel cars.

We in Manchester about 7 years ago were offered an option

A. Accept a congestion charge & that will fund the metrolink expansion
B. Reject the charge & the metrolink 'big bang' expansion wouldn't go ahead.

What happened.....We told Manchester council to stick their congestion charge where the sun don't shine & voted no.

What did the council do.......borrowed the money & built the metrolink expansion anyway.

Give it 5 years with increasing tight control over carbon emissions & the availability of the metrolink network & we'll have the congestion charge imposed here.

Then we'll have to possibly go EV


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## ardandy (Aug 18, 2006)

In 2017 theyre also the only cars with £0 car tax.

Manchester is actually really good for EV's. Loads of points everywhere for free.


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## Rayaan (Jun 1, 2014)

Out of interest, I wonder how much you would save over the course of 3 years with a Tesla compared to something like a Jag F Type for example, including depreciation.......


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## Andyg_TSi (Sep 6, 2013)

ardandy said:


> In 2017 theyre also the only cars with £0 car tax.
> 
> Manchester is actually really good for EV's. Loads of points everywhere for free.


Yeah, it's really good there's loads of on street charging points, there are 6 within a 5 min walk from where I work on Chapel St near the Lowry Hotel.

Metrolink expansion nearly done with plans for an orbital metrolink connecting all the gtr Manchester areas.......EV charge points readily available......won't be long before a congestion charge comes in


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## Clancy (Jul 21, 2013)

As soon as everyone jumps on the bandwagon though the charge points will not be free and they'll find a new tax to put on so it will end up the same anyway


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## Steve in Hun (May 19, 2015)

ardandy said:


> If you needed to replace them its around £4000! Tbh I can't see many people keeping them 8+ years yet given how cheap it is to get a new one each 2-3years.
> 
> EV's are like phones, who wants a 5 year old phone!


This.
EVs are a relatively new concept and are expensive, how do second hand prices compare to efficient diesels and petrols very few people buy new cars outright and when dealers start trying to sell older EVs taken as trade or end of lease they prices are going to be hit hard "EV's are like phones, who wants a 5 year old phone". When Ev specific taxes are introduced and they will be if EVs become popular they will be even less desirable.
From the running cost point of view at the moment there are incentives to buy an EV these will stop at some point i.e no government grants, no manufacture incentives, no free charging points, congestion charge will include EVs. The government, council or who ever can profit will do. The motorists whether fossil fuel or EV are an easy source of income.
As for the environment, are they as green as is advertised. What happens to the battery at the end of its life, where are the raw materials sourced from to make new batteries. How much carbon, chemicals are released into the atmosphere compared to other energy sources. I used to work in the renewable energy industry and when the government are subsidising everything to lower the carbon emissions products are cheap and your personal environmental emissions are low but with extraction "mining", production and disposal, recycling at end of life, how green are EVs.
EVs do have a future when technology improves but not yet for the majority of people.
Personally what would get me into an EV - Power, handling and acceleration ( I love driving). Style (most EVs are as aesthetic as fridges). Range (on occasion I have driven 1000 miles in 24 hours I don't think there are any EVs that are capable at this time). Resale value (remains to be seen). Running costs (charging costs, battery replacement costs, battery lease costs, maintenance compared to conventional vehicle on older cars), environmental impact.
Steve


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## SteveTDCi (Feb 8, 2006)

When you lease the batteries they are covered in the event of failure


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## robertdon777 (Nov 3, 2005)

1000 miles in 24hrs would require pitstops no matter what you drive.

A Tesla could do it in 4 stops. Or one every 6 hours. 6 hours without stopping isn't the best on a safety front though so yeah an EV could do it easily.


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## Steve in Hun (May 19, 2015)

robertdon777 said:


> 1000 miles in 24hrs would require pitstops no matter what you drive.
> 
> A Tesla could do it in 4 stops. Or one every 6 hours. 6 hours without stopping isn't the best on a safety front though so yeah an EV could do it easily.


.
Your right it is possible in the latest Tesla and things will improve as technology advances.
I haven't researched this in depth but am happy to be corrected. How common are charging points for fast charging both in Britain and on the continent, can the same charging point be used by different EVs or do you need one type of charger for a Tesla and another for a Nissan Leaf.


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## andy665 (Nov 1, 2005)

Steve in Hun said:


> .
> Your right it is possible in the latest Tesla and things will improve as technology advances.
> I haven't researched this in depth but am happy to be corrected. How common are charging points for fast charging both in Britain and on the continent, can the same charging point be used by different EVs or do you need one type of charger for a Tesla and another for a Nissan Leaf.


This is the point that still limits EV - not even consensus amongst manufacturers on the type of plug - we need plug commonality and charging stations that are flexible enough to cover all types of charging inputs / outputs. Its not really difficult but we seem to be having a VHS / Betamax kind of situation at the moment in which the customer is caught in the middle


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## Bero (Mar 9, 2008)

Andyg_TSi said:


> But that comes back to my initial reply to Bero.
> 
> Let's assume for one moment that all major cities imposed a London style congestion charge in their city cdntres with ev's being exempt, so people look round for a cheap 2nd hand EV & they can only afford to spend £1500 - £2000 & can't afford a new car.
> 
> ...


But say you buy a £1500 Focus and the engine goes a month later?

Do you go to Ford and spend £4k on a new engine? Of course not, EV will be exactly the same....but more reliable.

I say potentially as a lot of people speak about less moving parts etc in EV.....but its an emerging technology. We've been building car power trains for over 100years and know how to do them reliably.


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## Kiashuma (May 4, 2011)

Cost and i don't like them.


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## robertdon777 (Nov 3, 2005)

I think when Tesla launched in Europe they did a 1000 mile drive across Europe for journalists to test out all the bits and Bob's that go with running an EV.

I'm sure this was done over 24hrs. I think it was Autocar in this country that took part, the trip went very well for all concerned so I'm guessing the infrastructure was good then and will only get better.

Once those Leafs, Golf E's and Zoes get the Tesla 300+ me range on a £2 charge the everyday motorist will sit up and take notice.

For the average mileage motorist it would mean a charge once a week doing 12K a year.

Even if EVs cost an extra 4K to buy the maths add up over say a 3 year ownership.


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## ardandy (Aug 18, 2006)

Currently there are more charge points than Electric cars. 

Most services have them, ASDA's, all IKEA's and then the council ones plus other pub/hotels. 

Teslas can use any rapid charger. Certainly once they're updated this year any car can pretty much use any rapid apart from Teslas own supercharger network. Can also use any fast charger. 

Lets also not forget that although slow you can charge using any standard plug socket. Meaning if you're proper out of luck you can knock on any door and beg! Billions of filling stations!


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## Shug (Jul 13, 2007)

Electric cars were about before the petrol engine. 
Been about for around 180 years.


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## Steve in Hun (May 19, 2015)

robertdon777 said:


> I think when Tesla launched in Europe they did a 1000 mile drive across Europe for journalists to test out all the bits and Bob's that go with running an EV.
> 
> I'm sure this was done over 24hrs. I think it was Autocar in this country that took part, the trip went very well for all concerned so I'm guessing the infrastructure was good then and will only get better.
> 
> ...


I don't agree that the infrastructure is good but it will probably be in the future.
I think one of the biggest problems in the future when EVs become mainstream is that government will realise how much money they are losing.
0 or reduced road tax.
0 income from fuel duty and tax.
Less income from congestion charge.
They will be losing a lot of money, to replace this I can see road tolls being implemented or some kind of black box with mileage being recorded and charged for.
300 miles for a couple of quid is great but I can't see it lasting
Steve


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## robertdon777 (Nov 3, 2005)

Steve in Hun said:


> I don't agree that the infrastructure is good but it will probably be in the future.
> I think one of the biggest problems in the future when EVs become mainstream is that government will realise how much money they are losing.
> 0 or reduced road tax.
> 0 income from fuel duty and tax.
> ...


They won't lose out on money, you will just be taxed more in other places.

Technology can sometimes force the hand, just look at Music Streaming an an old thing called an iPod. I asked my 7 year old Niece about music on her iPod and she didn't know what one was even though she has an iPad. She didn't understand the concept of storing music on a dedicated player....Mad me feel Old and out of date in so many ways.


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## Bero (Mar 9, 2008)

Shug said:


> Electric cars were about before the petrol engine.
> Been about for around 180 years.


I mean on a significant scale. Cars have many billions of years testing and refinement, improvements and optimisations.

Electric cars would have under 1% of this and no doubt will have a lot of step change improvements to come.


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## Supermega (Nov 10, 2008)

I've had mine nearly a year - I won't be going back to petrol just yet. I agree on range, yes it will get better with time. We use mine for local trips which covers the majority of my driving. Long trips we use the second car. Saying that we have covered trip of 150 miles using the motorway infrastructure, stopping for 20 minutes isn't a big issue if you not pressed for time. 

The cost are crazy cheap, I used to spend 120 a month in petrol now I spend 15 in electric!

The driving experience is superb, calm quiet and instant response from the throttle. People who think electric cars are slow need to drive one - pulling away from a set of traffic light will surprise quite a few 320d's 

Oh and when winter sets in having a hot and frost free car ready to depart first thing in the morning is ace!


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## SteveTDCi (Feb 8, 2006)

Supermega said:


> I've had mine nearly a year - I won't be going back to petrol just yet. I agree on range, yes it will get better with time. We use mine for local trips which covers the majority of my driving. Long trips we use the second car. Saying that we have covered trip of 150 miles using the motorway infrastructure, stopping for 20 minutes isn't a big issue if you not pressed for time.
> 
> The cost are crazy cheap, I used to spend 120 a month in petrol now I spend 15 in electric!
> 
> ...


I'm guessing you have a Zoe ? What's the range like in winter ? I've had a Zoe and a leaf on demo and actually preferred the Zoe as a car. Some of the offers are less than £150 a month and that's a bargain.


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## Supermega (Nov 10, 2008)

I do yes, I think the most I got last winter was about 70 miles on a run. It went on charge most nights to make use of the pre heating for my commute to work 20 miles, as it works best when connected to the mains. 

Yeah the new pcp deals are amazing at the moment - if you get one make sure you spec the one you need. Ie the new motor version can only charge up to to 22 kW mines the old type which can take 43 kW. If you don't plan on using it go trips on the motorway get the new type as it's quicker charging at lower kW. 
It just means the new Zoe would take around 40-50 minutes at the services when the older one is done at about 25 minutes.

Loads of info on speak EV if your interested.


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## JBirchy (Oct 9, 2010)

Well, yesterday a good mate came round in his 4 day old Tesla Model S. It's the P85d Performance model so the full fat, proper job. Must admit I was incredibly impressed with it.

- Beautifully built
- Amazing Tech/gadgets
- Lovely looking (solid black with pano roof, full exterior carbon pack and graphite wheels)
- Amazing refinement. Even on the 21" alloys it rode beautifully
- Astonishingly fast. Standing start full bore acceleration is nuts!
- Very practical - huge boot in the back, large hatchback, loads of room in the back and a decent size storage space under the bonnet

What's not to like?! 

However... I didn't fall in love with it. When I fire up a nice petrol engine, even the relatively small 2.0 Turbo in my GTI and I hear the cold idle zip up to 2200rpm for a while with the slightly throaty gurgle, it makes me fizz a bit inside. When I push the start button and fire up the 6.0 V12 in my Father-In-Laws Aston DB9, I have no control over the smile on my face and the exicted feeling that overcomes me. An electric car, no matter how objectively brilliant it may be, will never give me this feeling and therefore they aren't for me.


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## Lloyd71 (Aug 21, 2008)

We borrowed a Leaf for a week to see if we could live with it, however since we didn't have a garage we were limited to charging it (very slowly) via the standard charging cable using our house socket with the lead trailing out of the window. This meant that when we got home at 7pm we would charge it for 3 hours until 10pm when we went to bed and had to close the window (stopping charging). Over the week of having it the range slowly dropped and dropped since we couldn't charge overnight, to the point where when we were taking it back to the dealership it went into 'oh my god you're getting low here are the charge points!' mode. It didn't help that it was cold outside either and the range dropped 21 miles on a 3 mile journey.

Adding to that that it would be our main car and so we would have to use it regularly to make a trip to the Midlands and back. This is a 160 mile journey and with the Leaf's range we would have had to have stopped at least twice to make it up there, with each charge taking at least half an hour IF we got the quick charge station at the services. It also relies on the chargers working, someone not being parked in them, having the correct access card for that particular charging network etc.

Now you may say "Why don't you just hire a car for those journeys?", which would be a valid point if we weren't required to suddenly head up there without a chance to book a hire car. Which we have been several times.

Basically until the range is practical it doesn't fit into my life.


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## ardandy (Aug 18, 2006)

1, You'd geta proper charger installed so it would be full in 3-4 hours from flat.
2, I have 3 cards and travel around the country so it's not complicated.
3, The updated Leaf comes out this December with a realistic 110 mile range (1 stop).


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## Lloyd71 (Aug 21, 2008)

ardandy said:


> 1, You'd geta proper charger installed so it would be full in 3-4 hours from flat.


Provided the landlord allowed you to install it, that is. Not everyone owns their own house. Of course we would have checked this had we gone for the car.



> 2, I have 3 cards and travel around the country so it's not complicated.


This is fair enough but what if those chargers are in use or are broken? I've been to numerous service stations where the charge points are just flat out not working. If they're in use or they're all broken (this should, in theory, tell you on the satnav but it doesn't always) you'd better hope there's another within range. Then you've got to add this onto your journey time.



> 3, The updated Leaf comes out this December with a realistic 110 mile range (1 stop).


This is much more like it, and I hope that electric cars will soon reach the point where the models with long ranges are affordable. The actual driving experience is fantastic.


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## Rowan83 (Aug 21, 2007)

I got one of these on Thursday, a Renault Twizy..... it's bloody brilliant!!

Some people hate it, others absolutely love it, but I can honestly say I have never had so much fun  the attention and peoples reactions are the best.

Bought some special windows for it which will be arriving in a few weeks.

P.s i do have another 'normal' car for the family... The one next to it


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## Rayaan (Jun 1, 2014)

Rowan83 said:


> I got one of these on Thursday, a Renault Twizy..... it's bloody brilliant!!
> 
> Some people hate it, others absolutely love it, but I can honestly say I have never had so much fun  the attention and peoples reactions are the best.
> 
> ...


Hahahaha looks like short circuit blended with ET lol


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## ardandy (Aug 18, 2006)

Doors are optional extra!


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## m500dpp (Feb 17, 2006)

The Twizzy is brilliant and I would consider one for our local journeys IF the price was what it should be around the £3000 mark.Its more than double that as its low volume production. 

Maybe when they are available second hand.......


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## Lloyd71 (Aug 21, 2008)

Yup, if the price were lower I'd consider one for buzzing about the island in. Even better if I could somehow attach my bike to it to get to the local trails. It's about the only thing that would fit on my driveway alongside the Cactus!


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## Supermega (Nov 10, 2008)

It's funny, I would say the majority of charging is done at home. Would say the bulk of it is done in 2-3 hours the last 1% can take over an hour as it balances the cells, doesn't pull much power as it drops from about 90%.

After 6 months our electric direct debit didn't change, think we owed them £50 since we switched to the Zoe. If anyone is keen or tempted have a drive in one. I had a test in twizy, then the leaf and settled on the Zoe.


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## Horatio (Oct 30, 2011)

Uhhhm water powered car?

http://waterpoweredcar.com/herman.html


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## Laurie.J.M (Jun 23, 2011)

Horatio said:


> Uhhhm water powered car?
> 
> http://waterpoweredcar.com/herman.html


Look up free energy suppression to find out why things like water powered cars will never become reality.


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## Bero (Mar 9, 2008)

Laurie.J.M said:


> Look up free energy suppression to find out why things like water powered cars will never become reality.
> 
> Water Car Inventor Murdered - YouTube





Horatio said:


> Uhhhm water powered car?
> 
> http://waterpoweredcar.com/herman.html


Get your tin foil hats on people!

Water powered cars are a heap of humdrum rubbish, anyone with a concept of basic physics or chemistry can see that.


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## stuartr (Mar 11, 2014)

Bero said:


> Get your tin foil hats on people!
> 
> Water powered cars are a heap of humdrum rubbish, anyone with a concept of basic physics or chemistry can see that.


Indirectly via HydroElectric


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## Bero (Mar 9, 2008)

stuartr said:


> Indirectly via HydroElectric


That's not free power, just a method of indirectly extracting the sun's energy


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