# Hunter Wheel Alignment at Kwik Fit



## millns84

Got some new tyres fitted on the family wagon today and noticed that our local Kwik Fit has a Hunter machine.

I watched as a guy had his X-type done, quite impressive watching the tiny misalignments all being adjusted to be perfect, looks like a very accurate but timely process for what it is.

Best thing is, the check is free then £39.99 for just the fronts, and up to a maximum of £119.99 if everything needs adjusting (think he said £19.99 per adjustment after the first £39.99).

Might be something to consider in the future I think. :thumb:


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## MattDuffy88

How much!?!? My local ETS has the Hunter system and doesn't charge anywhere near that. Which reminds me I need to get mine re-done after dropping it down a bit more... again :lol:


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## millns84

I wouldn't know the price elsewhere, the only other place I'm aware of locally is the Lexus main dealer so that's probably £300


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## blackS2000

I have a 4 alignment done every year and have yet to pay less than £120 .

Kwik Fit may have a Hunter but do they have anybody who know's how to use it


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## Vossman

Local garage has a Hunter, I paid 60 quid for mine, my mate had his xtype sport done and that was 60 too.


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## xJay1337

Normal price for hunter alignment is around £60.
And frankly most of the time you just need 4 wheel alignment which my local tyre place does for £15!


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## johnnyguitar

Personally the difference between a £15 4 wheel alignment and a geometry set up is night and day. 
The price will be capped on the adjustments that can actually be made to the car, I imagine a lot of cars are not likely to allow caster adjustment and most would likely only allow front camber if at all (standard) hence the cost would be capped at 2-3 adjustments. I think I pay about £45 for a full geo setup.


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## VenomUK

Its the best system out there at the moment. Relatively new equipment too. Only sub £40 around me to have all 4 corners.


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## xJay1337

johnnyguitar said:


> Personally the difference between a £15 4 wheel alignment and a geometry set up is night and day.
> The price will be capped on the adjustments that can actually be made to the car, I imagine a lot of cars are not likely to allow caster adjustment and most would likely only allow front camber if at all (standard) hence the cost would be capped at 2-3 adjustments. I think I pay about £45 for a full geo setup.


Unless you have a suspension capable of all of that then getting the toe (so basic alignment) correct is key.
Besides, as you mention camber is not often factory adjustable. On the rear I have adjustable camber, and as factory requires it to have around -1.5. I personally run around 2.6-2.7 of negative camber, for one, I prefer how it feels and for the main reason, it looks a hell of a lot better.

At the end of the day a toe-alignment is a toe alignment and that won't change, as long as the equipment is of a measurable similiarity. I guess it is as the place I use are pretty good and I get full printout of before and after each time.. I do drive my car hard so good alignment is key (plus it's annoying if it's not!) :driver:


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## Dift

A full geo on my Elise only cost a smidge more than £120... As above, the hunter is only as good as its user. £120 is top whack for an alignment IMHO.


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## DJ X-Ray

+1^^Yeah that is exactly right i'd pay no more than 100,i usually go to some geezer in kent with a Hawkeye machine which is the best he's a bit of a guru,as mentioned it'll only be as good as the operator and i definetley wouldn't let kwik fit touch it,tbh i wouldn't let them touch anything


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## blackS2000

You can get a full Geo done anywhere that has a 4 wheel alignment machine .

It'll be done to manufacturer's spec's which have a fair margin of error . 

If you have a performance related car with tune-able suspension you will not get a Geo done for less than £100 by anybody who understand's how suspension work's and can set your car up for you using setting's that will be exact !! not just " within tolerence i.e. fast /road or even race !

The best 4 wheel alignment machine is a properly calibrated Beissbarth .

These machine's are used for race car prep as well road car's and the cost , including corner weighting and thrust angle's can be £300 +

Obviously your average hatch back will not need 4 wheel alignment to this degree.

John .


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## DJ X-Ray

blackS2000 said:


> You can get a full Geo done anywhere that has a 4 wheel alignment machine .
> 
> It'll be done to manufacturer's spec's which have a fair margin of error .
> 
> If you have a performance related car with tune-able suspension you will not get a Geo done for less than £100 by anybody who understand's how suspension work's and can set your car up for you using setting's that will be exact !! not just " within tolerence i.e. fast /road or even race !
> 
> The best 4 wheel alignment machine is a properly calibrated Beissbarth .
> 
> These machine's are used for race car prep as well road car's and the cost , including corner weighting and thrust angle's can be £300 +
> 
> Obviously your average hatch back will not need 4 wheel alignment to this degree.
> 
> John .


But it'll still only be as good as the operator,if you go to just anyone with a machine,the easiest way to tell if they know what they're doing is to ask them what they're actually alligning to


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## blackS2000

I should have mentioned that in my post .

In actual fact you should'nt ask anything !

If the operator dos'nt ask you how you want your car set up and how you drive it's pretty certain your going to get a bog standard set up.


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## DJ X-Ray

blackS2000 said:


> I should have mentioned that in my post .
> 
> In actual fact you should'nt ask anything !
> 
> If the operator dos'nt ask you how you want your car set up and how you drive it's pretty certain your going to get a bog standard set up.


Yeah i know what your saying,i agree you shouldn't have to ask,just a couple of dodgy experiences i've had in the past


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## Pezza4u

millns84 said:


> Got some new tyres fitted on the family wagon today and noticed that our local Kwik Fit has a Hunter machine.


Was this the branch where you live or in Altrincham?



blackS2000 said:


> Kwik Fit may have a Hunter but do they have anybody who know's how to use it


Yep, a machine is only as good as it's operator and they need to be able to decipher the data on the screen, not just get the red bits green!



xJay1337 said:


> And frankly most of the time you just need 4 wheel alignment which my local tyre place does for £15!


Not true, a 4 wheel alignment assumes the rear is already aligned correctly, if it isn't then the fronts won't be either as they are done afterwards. Even if the rear isn't adjustable a geometry can give you a 3D image (to someone who can visualise the data) of the chassis and if there may be any issues, such as bent suspension components.



blackS2000 said:


> You can get a full Geo done anywhere that has a 4 wheel alignment machine .
> 
> It'll be done to manufacturer's spec's which have a fair margin of error .
> 
> If you have a performance related car with tune-able suspension you will not get a Geo done for less than £100 by anybody who understand's how suspension work's and can set your car up for you using setting's that will be exact !! not just " within tolerence i.e. fast /road or even race !
> 
> The best 4 wheel alignment machine is a properly calibrated Beissbarth .
> 
> These machine's are used for race car prep as well road car's and the cost , including corner weighting and thrust angle's can be £300 +
> 
> Obviously your average hatch back will not need 4 wheel alignment to this degree.
> 
> John .


This is half the problem with most operators, they won't deviate from what the figures on the screen say even if they are wrong. An example is the Lexus IS200 OEM data causes terrible inner tyre wear but the geometry can be set so they wear even. Although this requires the operator to step outside of the box!

Any rig is up to the job whether it's a Beissbarth, Hunter or John Bean....it's only as good as it's operator.



Dj.X-Ray said:


> But it'll still only be as good as the operator,if you go to just anyone with a machine,the easiest way to tell if they know what they're doing is to ask them what they're actually alligning to


Out curiosity do you know the answer to that question? And yes I do know.


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## DJ X-Ray

Pezza4u said:


> Was this the branch where you live or in Altrincham?
> 
> Yep, a machine is only as good as it's operator and they need to be able to decipher the data on the screen, not just get the red bits green!
> 
> Not true, a 4 wheel alignment assumes the rear is already aligned correctly, if it isn't then the fronts won't be either as they are done afterwards. Even if the rear isn't adjustable a geometry can give you a 3D image (to someone who can visualise the data) of the chassis and if there may be any issues, such as bent suspension components.
> 
> This is half the problem with most operators, they won't deviate from what the figures on the screen say even if they are wrong. An example is the Lexus IS200 OEM data causes terrible inner tyre wear but the geometry can be set so they wear even. Although this requires the operator to step outside of the box!
> 
> Any rig is up to the job whether it's a Beissbarth, Hunter or John Bean....it's only as good as it's operator.
> 
> Out curiosity do you know the answer to that question? And yes I do know.


Yeah i do


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## Pezza4u

What's the answer then


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## DJ X-Ray

Lol i know this is probably a trick question bannerman but it's the Rear wheels


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## Pezza4u

That's half correct but it's actually the rear thrust angle, which is an imaginary line going from the centre rear to the front of the chassis. The rear wheels are aligned to this first and then the front.

I wrote this thread a while ago about it - http://detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=169317


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## DJ X-Ray

Pezza4u said:


> That's half correct but it's actually the rear thrust angle, which is an imaginary line going from the centre rear to the front of the chassis. The rear wheels are aligned to this first and then the front.
> 
> I wrote this thread a while ago about it - http://detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=169317


Lol not half correct it is correct without getting too technical i know all about 'X' etc,i get my motors done by WIM tony.b blackboots and them lot..


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## Pezza4u

Dj.X-Ray said:


> Lol not half correct it is correct without getting too technical i know all about 'X' etc,i get my motors done by WIM tony.b blackboots and them lot..


Sorry but you are wrong.

The front wheels are not aligned to the rear wheels, it's the thrust angle.

Incorrect rear toe will cause the thrust angle to move and the front wheels need this to be accurate (set to 0) so it can be used as a reference for them to be aligned to.

If you don't believe me then ask Tony himself


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## millns84

Pezza4u said:


> Was this the branch where you live or in Altrincham


It's the Stockport branch on Buxton Road :thumb:


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## blackS2000

O

I wrote this thread a while ago about it - http://detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=169317 [/QUOTE]

Excellent stuff.


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## DJ X-Ray

Pezza4u said:


> Sorry but you are wrong.
> 
> The front wheels are not aligned to the rear wheels, it's the thrust angle.
> 
> Incorrect rear toe will cause the thrust angle to move and the front wheels need this to be accurate (set to 0) so it can be used as a reference for them to be aligned to.
> 
> If you don't believe me then ask Tony himself


Actually i'm not wrong the thrust angle is part and parcel of the process of the alignment i'm not saying it's not,your the one who brought thrust angle into this,all i'm saying is the be all and end all of this is that the front wheels are alligned to the rear which is what i originally said.Four wheel alignment will use the rear wheels as a scale in an attempt to find the cars true centre line


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## Pezza4u

millns84 said:


> It's the Stockport branch on Buxton Road :thumb:


Cheers  I only asked as Pete who works here at WIM used to work for Kwik Fit in Altrincham and as far as he knew they were the only one in the area with a hunter. I guess they are rolling them out to more garages now.

When he worked there they would only allocate a certain amount of time for each car that had a geometry and would not let him deviate from the OEM settings. Pete is really good at what he does, hence why he left and went to WIM. This is a prime example of why it's more the operator rather than the machine.

For instance if you went there after lowering the car and was suffering with inner tyre wear from negative camber they would set the car back as close to the OEM settings as they could. However, this would be no good unless the range was so wide you can get it back to OEM settings, although most of the time this can't be done without a camber kit or bolts. Start talking camber (and caster) kits to people who don't like stepping out of their comfort zone and you will be in the wrong hands. Always worth going to get a geometry from someone with a good reputation and can advise on how best to set a car up depending on what you want, better handling or improved tyre wear.



Dj.X-Ray said:


> Actually i'm not wrong the thrust angle is part and parcel of the process of the alignment i'm not saying it's not,your the one who brought thrust angle into this,all i'm saying is the be all and end all of this is that the front wheels are alligned to the rear which is what i originally said.Four wheel alignment will use the rear wheels as a scale in an attempt to find the cars true centre line


You originally posed the question 'what are they aligned to', which I queried if you knew the answer and you gave the rear wheels. This is incorrect as although the rear wheels can be aligned against eachother, (unlike the fronts as they're steering wheels) they still need a point of reference to get them straight, which is the thrust angle. Once this is set to or as close as possible to 0 the front wheels can then use the thrust angle as a point of reference to align them.

So the answer you should have given is they are aligned to the thrust angle and not the rear wheels. While four wheel alignment assumes the rear wheels are already correctly aligned using the thrust angle, the fronts will still use this angle as a point of reference, not the rear wheels themselves.



Dj.X-Ray said:


> i get my motors done by WIM tony.b blackboots and them lot..





Dj.X-Ray said:


> i usually go to some geezer in kent with a Hawkeye machine which is the best he's a bit of a guru


I'm abit confused here, you say you use WIM for your cars but go to someone in Kent. WIM are based in Bucks, unless you are using one of the trusted network garages in Kent?


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## DJ X-Ray

What i actually meant was the rear wheels should be the reference point to which the front wheels should be set i didn't mean aligning the two rears to each other i mean the two front to the rear Fair enough though pezza mate,maybe i took what i was told wrongly but i always thought at the end of the day the front would be aligned to the back once all the settings etc were finished and the true centre line was found.What i meant to say was chesham actually i was thinking of chatham in kent for some reason?!lord knows why, anyway i'll shut up know lol all the best mate


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## Pezza4u

Dj.X-Ray said:


> What i actually meant was the rear wheels should be the reference point to which the front wheels should be set i didn't mean aligning the two rears to each other i mean the two front to the rear Fair enough though pezza mate,maybe i took what i was told wrongly but i always thought at the end of the day the front would be aligned to the back once all the settings etc were finished and the true centre line was found.What i meant to say was chesham actually i was thinking of chatham in kent for some reason?!lord knows why, anyway i'll shut up know lol all the best mate


No worries mate, wasn't looking for an argument, just trying to state the facts 

With a 4 wheel alignment the fronts will use the rear wheels as a reference point but this isn't the right way to do it. If the rear wheels are not aligned correctly to the thrust angle, the front wheels will also be out of alignment. This is why it's important to have a geometry done as the rear wheels will be adjusted first to correct the thrust angle, then the front wheels aligned to that.

With a car that has a non adjustable rear it's safe to assume the thrust angle is ok as in theory nothing can move, so a 4 wheel alignment would suffice in this case. However, you can't be 100% sure the rear thrust angle is ok unless it's measured with a full geometry. Bent components or stuffed bushes can effect it so it's best to get the full picture rather than half of it.

This illustration shows what I mean well. On the first car all 4 wheels are out of alignment. If the rear was measured (but not adjusted) with a 4 wheel alignment and the front wheels aligned to them they would be wrong. The car would pull to one side (blue line) as the thrust angle will not be 0. However, set the rear wheels first to the thrust angle (2nd car) so they are pointing straight then the fronts can be aligned correctly to this angle (3rd car).


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