# Can using your horn to show your anger at slow drivers ever be acceptable?



## T.D.K (Mar 16, 2011)

I'm finding more and more people driving at 30 or less on perfectly safe B roads when the speed limit is 60.

The roads are safe enough to do this speed yet overtaking is very hard as the roads by me as quite twisty. 

I've never done it but is it ever acceptable to use your horn to show your anger at the slow speed others are doing? 

I ask because myself and five other cars were stuck behind a OAP in a Honda Jazz doing about 25-30 in a 60 zone and one or two were using their horns in frustration. Eventually the OAP pulled over and let us past. 

I'm finding myself leaving the house earlier and earlier to get to work because of people who are retired and in no rush to get to their destination. Haven't the confidence to do the speed limit or haven't got full control of their car.

I completely accept that some B roads aren't suitable for doing 60, despite them having this limit but people just seem to be getting slower and slower these days on perfectly safe roads.

I think these people who slow down traffic on these roads are actually more dangerous than people who exceed the speed limit.

Debate.


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## Naddy37 (Oct 27, 2005)

T.D.K said:


> I've never done it but is it ever acceptable to use your horn to show your anger at the slow speed others are doing?


IMHO, no. And if you're at that stage you're not a safe driver as you're getting too stressed out and wound up behind the wheel.

You also have to remember, the driver in front may not know the road and is being extra cautious.


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## stangalang (Nov 27, 2009)

I put yes, but this is entirely based on the environment, and perhaps more importantly the lane they are in. Slow drivers on the wrong road or lane are as dangerous as fast drivers on the wrong road. But on the whole everything has its place, if done PROPERLY driving at slower speeds will neither cause accidents or que's


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## mattsbmw (Jul 20, 2008)

T.D.K said:


> I'm finding more and more people driving at 30 or less on perfectly safe B roads when the speed limit is 60.
> 
> The roads are safe enough to do this speed yet overtaking is very hard as the roads by me as quite twisty.
> 
> ...


IMO it can never be acceptable to bully other road users. Your own admission states the roads are twisty, what if you meet a cyclist / horse / farm vehicle on these twists at 60mph?

And your final statement about these drivers being more dangerous, not all they are less dangerous than excessive speed.


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## Twizz (Jul 8, 2012)

Drivers need to be aware of the speed limits - not sticking to them in itself gives learners minors on their tests. I understand people may be nervous, not knowing the road or what have you but IMO doing 30 in a 60 is a little too slow for me - Doing half the speed limit anywhere is an inconvenience IMO. 

Horns, as stated in the high way code are there to alert other road users of your presence. 

I wouldn't let myself get angry though, only you can control the stress you let yourself have. Don't let them stress you out..


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## T.D.K (Mar 16, 2011)

mattsbmw said:


> IMO it can never be acceptable to bully other road users. Your own admission states the roads are twisty, what if you meet a cyclist / horse / farm vehicle on these twists at 60mph?
> 
> And your final statement about these drivers being more dangerous, not all they are less dangerous than excessive speed.


In my last bit, I meant people behind the slower driver may take risks to overtake, therefore putting everyone at risk.

The roads are twisty but perfectly safe to do the speed limit, it's just overtaking that's tricky.


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## Naddy37 (Oct 27, 2005)

T.D.K said:


> In my last bit, I meant people behind the slower driver may take risks to overtake, therefore putting everyone at risk.
> 
> The roads are twisty but perfectly safe to do the speed limit, it's just overtaking that's tricky.


But, if the roads are twisty, an overtake is a risk.


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## mattsbmw (Jul 20, 2008)

T.D.K said:


> In my last bit, I meant people behind the slower driver may take risks to overtake, therefore putting everyone at risk.


In which case its the drivers behind that are risk takers and dangerous not the driver doing 30


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## Kriminal (Jan 11, 2007)

I put Yes.

Although, I think there's a difference between a 'toot' and a 'honk' :

Toots are not meant to be an aggressive form of sounding the horn, and may be used to alert people to your presence, and so no offence should be taken by the receiving party.

Honks are a more aggressive form of sounding the horn; these are baaaad! These mean you are much less than happy with the other road user, and that they should get the hell out of your way. Using this method of interrogation can only result in retaliation by the other road user, and a swift raise to your blood pressure, which will not be good for your heart; so you have therefore NOT done anybody any favours, making Honks a less favourable method.

I hope this explains my reasoning.
:thumb:


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## T.D.K (Mar 16, 2011)

Fair points but what gives the driver the right to do 25-30mph in a national speed limit zone on perfectly safe roads?

I must stress that while they roads are country lanes, it is perfectly safe to do 60mph.


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## possul (Nov 14, 2008)

My biggest pet hate is people who drive well under the national but then come to a 30mph and do 40mph or anything above 30mph for that matter
Never use my horn just grin and bear it or overtake is possible.
Horns are there to let other road users of your presence so I think they could be used yes.


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## T.D.K (Mar 16, 2011)

Kriminal said:


> I put Yes.
> 
> Although, I think there's a difference between a 'toot' and a 'honk' :
> 
> ...


The two cars who beeped the OAP were beeping for a long time, one for over 5 seconds, which then led to the driver pulling over to let us past.

I felt sorry for him but if he hasn't the confidence to at least 50mph on that road, he really shouldn't be driving.


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## should_do_more (Apr 30, 2008)

Annoying yes but no I don't think you should do it. Add to the above, they may not know the area, tooting makes people panic or angry, finally 60 is a limit not a recommendation.


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## DJ X-Ray (Sep 2, 2012)

I don't do it under those circumstances, but if there's someone looking down texting on their phone and i'm sat behind them waiting at a junction then i do


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## Andy from Sandy (May 6, 2011)

It is not only B roads that it happens. I know it is a limit and not a target but on a good A road I have to put up with it every day.

The pet hates are those that do 40 on every section that has the slightest kink but when we reach a straight for an opportunity to overtake they then speed up to 60. The other has been mentioned 40 in a 60 then 40 in the 30 blissfully unaware of what the speed limit is.

On single carriage roads I am thinking it would be a good idea for there to be lay-bys every mile so that slow moving vehicles should pull over if they have so many behind them. I think HGVs can only do 40 on single carriage road as well.


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## S63 (Jan 5, 2007)

What a load of tosh, find OAP bashing absolutely pathetic.

Get angry on the road? get off it.

For every OAP driver you find me I'll give you ten under Thirty years old bad drivers.

Think you're smarter than insurance companies? I don't think so.

Try and become a better driver yourself i.e. one that can cope with any given hazard, problem, obstacle, have you been on any IAM training?

You say there are "perfectly safe roads"..........there is no such thing.

Bring the flak on chaps.


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## Kriminal (Jan 11, 2007)

S63 said:


> What a load of tosh, find OAP bashing absolutely pathetic.
> 
> Get angry on the road? get off it.
> 
> ...


Better now?


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## Matt. (Aug 26, 2007)

It annoys me when people travel at 40mph in a 60mph, then when the speed limit drops to 30mph, their still traveling at 40mph!


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## possul (Nov 14, 2008)

Not getting any S63


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## S63 (Jan 5, 2007)

possul said:


> Not getting any S63


Plenty, had a nice cup of hot chocolate earlier, thanks for your concern.


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## Cookies (Dec 10, 2008)

Sorry peeps - I'm in agreement with S63 here. 

My father was a professional advanced driver and at over 70 years of age rarely exceeded 50mph, yet had a sharpness and awareness of road conditions I could only dream of having. He used to try and instil a bit of the IAM roadcraft manual into my driving and always talked about 'economy of movement' - he rarely needed to brake as he anticipated the speed he needed to negotiate and anticipate hazards. Smoooooth driving at its best.

As someone said before, the speed limit is the maximum permissible speed on a road. It's not a target, nor is it accepted that it is permitted in all road conditions. You can be prosecuted for driving without due care and attention / careless / excessive speed all within the legal speed limit!

I reckon those people who are busting to get past other slower, more careful and conscientious drivers just simply haven't left enough time for their journey. So leave the house 5 minutes earlier, chill and get there safely and in one piece.

Cooks.


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## PugIain (Jun 28, 2006)

People who get wound up while driving SHOULD NOT BE DRIVING. They are the sort of ****s that kill others by their recklessness.
If you're in a rush, don't worry, late or dead?, or in jail for killing someone?. Which is better?


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## S63 (Jan 5, 2007)

This page is displaying infinitely more common sense than the last.


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## Natalie (Jan 19, 2011)

PugIain said:


> People who get wound up while driving SHOULD NOT BE DRIVING. They are the sort of ****s that kill others by their recklessness.
> If you're in a rush, don't worry, late or dead?, or in jail for killing someone?. Which is better?


As someone (Dad?) once said to me "Better to get there late than not at all"


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## S63 (Jan 5, 2007)

Cookies said:


> Sorry peeps - I'm in agreement with S63 here.
> 
> My father was a professional advanced driver and at over 70 years of age rarely exceeded 50mph, yet had a sharpness and awareness of road conditions I could only dream of having. He used to try and instil a bit of the IAM roadcraft manual into my driving and always talked about 'economy of movement' - he rarely needed to brake as he anticipated the speed he needed to negotiate and anticipate hazards. Smoooooth driving at its best.
> 
> ...


It's clear to read that you have listened and remembered from your Dads wise advice, three words you have cited..awareness, anticipation and economy are key to becoming a better driver.

Interesting where I work at the moment, everybody drives to work and the majority are in their twenties, quite a few on minimum wage. MPG is almost a daily topic and ways of improving it, they literally cannot afford the fuel to get through the month and guess what, everyone is slowing down and realising the time it takes to get to work is hardly any different to what it was before, the recession has had at least one hidden benefit.


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## R7KY D (Feb 16, 2010)

Honk your horn for when your behind me if you think I'm going too slow = middle finger


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## Andyg_TSi (Sep 6, 2013)

Speed itself is not the issue, speed is perfectly acceptable in the right conditions and can be necessary

Fast B road, sunny day, clear road, 60mph - no problem

Motorway, in the fog/rain, visibility at 20 yards - 70 mph & tailgating the car in front - you must be mad!!!

By far the biggest issue is hazard perception and not utilising mirrors to maintain awareness of what's going on around you. far too many people get behind the wheel and then switch off.
EG pull onto the motorway, get up to 55/60mph move into the middle lane and then sit there mile after mile without using correct lane discipline.

Incorrect use of speed in other words is the issue coupled with a lack of common sense and perception.

tootling along at 30 mph in a national speed limit area in clear conditions is just as silly as speeding along a motorway at 100mph in the rain driving 2 inches behind the car in front

both cases are just examples of selfish driving

the happy medium is to make steady safe progress.


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## Andyg_TSi (Sep 6, 2013)

Natalie said:


> As someone (Dad?) once said to me "Better to get there late than not at all"


my dad said two things to me

1 - similar to yours but he phrased it thus:

Better to arrive late than *DEAD* on time -

2.

2nd class driving is better than 1st class walking


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## shine247 (Mar 1, 2010)

It is probably fair to say that the drivers you have issue with are often not aware of why you are sounding the horn. Driving at a speed which is not appropriate will not enter their heads, they are likely to go slower thinking something is wrong. I fully understand your point, I just do not think sounding your horn has the effect you desire in most cases.


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## mirdif64 (Aug 23, 2007)

Wouldn't use the horn but it is frustrating sometimes as a lot of roads up here are plagued with people driving well under the posted limit oblivious to the traffic queue behind them. Followed a woman in a Cinquecento recently for more than 15 miles who never went above 37 mph on an A road, with at least 20 odd frustrated drivers behind her. Also behind an old guy in a Kia Sorento doing 40 mph on similar roads and then drove through a 20 mph school zone without slowing down !
Could they not occasionally pull over and let people past ?
I am usually in a vehicle with a 50 mph speed restricter and I routinely pull in to let others past if I'm holding them up.


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## PugIain (Jun 28, 2006)

Natalie said:


> As someone (Dad?) once said to me "Better to get there late than not at all"


My Mrs whinges about my time keeping every now and again. I just say "I'm never late, I arrive at the precise moment I intend to".
Having said that, I've never been late for work. Something to do with setting off in good time I'd imagine


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## S63 (Jan 5, 2007)

Your post made a lot of sense until....


Andyg_TSi said:


> tootling along at 30 mph in a national speed limit area in clear conditions is just as silly as speeding along a motorway at 100mph in the rain driving 2 inches behind the car in front


We all have a reaction time, that time doesn't alter as you depress the gas pedal. Many older drivers are wise enough to recognise with age your reaction time slows down and hence drive accordingly.

Look at the Sheppey accident last week, perfectly normal conditions until drivers were met with a curtain of fog without warning, a relatively safe piece of road became a potential death trap for all those that were unable to react in time.


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## Andyg_TSi (Sep 6, 2013)

S63 said:


> Your post made a lot of sense until....
> 
> We all have a reaction time, that time doesn't alter as you depress the gas pedal. Many older drivers are wise enough to recognise with age your reaction time slows down and hence drive accordingly.
> 
> Look at the Sheppey accident last week, perfectly normal conditions until drivers were met with a curtain of fog without warning, a relatively safe piece of road became a potential death trap for all those that were unable to react in time.


I wonder how many couldn't react in time because they were oblivious and continued to do 70mph driving too close to the car in front when they entered the fog and therefore couldn't stop in time.......

I was making the point that both can be considered inconsiderate driving by other road users 

and I agree with your other posts


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## ianrobbo1 (Feb 13, 2007)

I answered yes, but with reservations, speed doesn't kill, inappropriate speed kills, and that can be too slow or too fast!! I take each situation at it's face value, if I come up against a line of cars doing well under the speed limit I ask myself why?? is there a hazard ahead I'm unable to see?? is there some other reason for the speed weather, road conditions ice etc!! occasionally it may be someone that is just driving like Ms Daisy sometimes it may be something completely different, I'll wait until I get the opportunity to overtake safely, and when I'm past the mobile hold up, I'll decide what speed I'm going to do, having taken into account as many variables as possible, what I will do though, if I see someone coming up from behind, I WONT block him just for the sake of it like I see MANY people doing!!  IF he's going to have an accident, I'd prefer NOT to be a part of it, so let him get on with it, knowing that, IF I come around the next bend and the fast driver has had an accident, I will be able to stop in time, and I wont be involved, as if he had tried a bad overtake of me in possibly the same place, had I blocked him earlier!!  

so ends war and peace


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## VW Golf-Fan (Aug 3, 2010)

I think the problem with slow drivers is that they probably don't know the roads too well, not totally confident about driving & that insufficient use of mirrors to check for cars behind them is making them drive the way they do as if they'd have looked to see the 30 + cars behind them, they'd maybe think I am going a tad slow here.

But I think sounding the horn (i.e. short & quick toot) would be the absolute maximum amount acceptable for 'getting them to speed up a bit" if you absolutely have to, any more such as a long blast of the horn is a pretty aggressive form of driving & could be taken th wrong way by the driver on the receiving end.


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## Natalie (Jan 19, 2011)

_A horn should only be used when warning someone of danger, not to indicate your annoyance at a manner of driving.
_


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## Beancounter (Aug 31, 2006)

I'm amazed and disappointed that currently the pole stands at 50:50.........so half the people think it is actually acceptable to toot someone else on the road just for driving slower than you'd like them too........[walks off shaking head]


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## ianrobbo1 (Feb 13, 2007)

one situation I DO sound the horn at, is when I'm stuck behind the arseinthe air brigade, a pile of "cyclists" taking up all of one side of a country lane and half the opposite side as well, as they enjoy THEIR little ride, holding everything and everyone up by their selfish riding!! not letting anyone past and often causing anguish for drivers of vehicles coming the other way they are spread out so much!! 


walks off shaking fist and growling!!


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## Beancounter (Aug 31, 2006)

:lol: completely agree, fortunately, I'm not one of those  

Sadly all manner of things will wind up other road users, be they drivers, cyclists or anyone else, it's how each individual handles that situation that counts.

Back to the original post :thumb:


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## DJ X-Ray (Sep 2, 2012)

Natalie said:


> _A horn should only be used when warning someone of danger, not to indicate your annoyance at a manner of driving. SORRY, CAN YOU SAY THAT AGAIN PLEASE, I DIDN'T QUITE CATCH IT
> _[/QUOTE


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

It can be an offence for a slow moving vehicle to hold up traffic. 

I can't say I've ever honked my horn at someone slow before though.


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## blackS2000 (Aug 4, 2010)

Too all the driving god's who happily go around sounding the horn at any and all who do not come up to their own high and mighty idea of what's good and what's not good when out driving I would ask a question ?

What form of advanced driving course's have you undertaken ?

What further education , since passing your basic learner driving test have you undergone ?

If the answer is " none " then what make's you think your better than the person / person's that is not driving to your ( uneducated / untrained ) standard ??

What make's you think your not like 95% of the driving public , Yes , 95% , who pass a basic learner driving test ,then spend the next few year's honing their skill's by forgetting nearly every thing they've been taught !

If you've not had any advanced training then it is very unlikely that your driving skill's are any better than " barely adequate " and on a par with the driver that is about to receive your misplaced ire in the form of a blast on the horn !!

If you have had any form of advanced driving then ,of course you are in a position to criticise any and all driver's you encounter with impunity although , due to your advanced status , any form of response will be instantly repressed due to your advanced status .

Therefore ,if you blast your horn in any circumstance's other than to " make other's aware of your presence " you are announcing to the world your own lack of driving skill and ability .:devil:

My advice : Get some training .

Regard's John.


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## Pezza4u (Jun 7, 2007)

I never sound my horn but some drivers do go far too slow for the conditions. Like the other week someone was doing 40 mph on the M25, when everyone else is doing 60-70 mph. It was a dry sunny day and there was no reason to go that slow. Everyone was having to overtake when really they shouldn't have to.

What does make me laugh is when I'm in a queue of traffic and leave a good space between me and the car in front so I don't have to constantly brake. Sometimes I get someone tailgating me cos I've left a large space but am doing an acceptable speed, they still overtake and then slam the brakes on. Not like they got any further by doing that!


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## Natalie (Jan 19, 2011)

DJ X-Ray said:


> Natalie said:
> 
> 
> > _A horn should only be used when warning someone of danger, not to indicate your annoyance at a manner of driving.
> ...


Must be your age


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## DJ X-Ray (Sep 2, 2012)

Natalie said:


> Must be your age


Oi! I'm only 37, six of the best for that (Only joking nat)
not


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

I think a few people kid themselves on how they behave on the road. Quick to criticise others and fail to notice that they do the same if not worse on occasion. 

I think everyone gets a bit frustrated when they are stuck in traffic or in bad situations. That doesn't mean they are necessarily going to do something silly. 

I get annoyed at slow moving traffic that makes no effort to facilitate a pass. They are supposed to be fair to other road users too. It has never caused me to have an accident or even have any kind of incident. 

I've never heard of a bad driver on a public forum. Everyone seems to be able to lecture others on bad driving as they drive to the letter of the highway code. Allegedly. 

I was laughing at one of these guys on the BMW site the other day. 

He was continuously maintaining how good and safe a driver he was. Even when a notice of intended prosecution came through the door he denied any involvement in bad driving/racing. 

Weeks later one of the other forum members caught him racing on the very same road. 

Oh the irony.


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## Paintmaster1982 (Oct 23, 2007)

I have a part time delivery driving job which takes me all over Lincolnshire. As you may know it's full of twisty roads but at the same time it has fairly wide straight roads take the A15 for example. I cringe when I see a honda Jazz because 90% of the time ill get stuck behind them doing 40 for mile upon mile no matter what the roads or conditions are. 

The trick is to just back off and take your time. There is nothing you can do. Plus the fact that if I went sounding my horn and flashing my lights at them with the company name plastered all over the van I don't think I would last very long as a delivery driver with that company.

Just to add to this part. I deliver tins of paint to traders and you can't go rallying around otherwise it can go everywhere if a tin gets tipped over which is something i've yet to achieve so if I'am wishing for mr or mrs slowly to hurry up round the twisty bits then they are deffo going far to slow lol

I do think that they should obey the speed limits for example on a main A road like the A15 as all it does is force people to overtake. 

I was in my car the other day stuck behind someone doing 45mph with a car behind him also OAP. Perfectly straight ish road and plenty of room to make a safe overtaking maneuver. I indicated checked my mirrors blah blah. Got at the side of the first OAP who decided not to bother to signal or use his indicators and just pull out. I was forced onto the grass verge. If the first OAP was doing the speed limit then I wouldn't have had to overtake, which before anyone jumps on the "why overtake" bandwagon. Overtaking is a completely legal maneuver .

In my eyes depending on the situation I think they need to stick to the speed limits. Pretty much everywhere these days have had there black spots speed reduced and so you can rely on the fact that doing the speed limit in good conditions is ok.


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## Paintmaster1982 (Oct 23, 2007)

Pezza4u said:


> I never sound my horn but some drivers do go far too slow for the conditions. Like the other week someone was doing 40 mph on the M25, when everyone else is doing 60-70 mph. It was a dry sunny day and there was no reason to go that slow. Everyone was having to overtake when really they shouldn't have to.
> 
> What does make me laugh is when I'm in a queue of traffic and leave a good space between me and the car in front so I don't have to constantly brake. Sometimes I get someone tailgating me cos I've left a large space but am doing an acceptable speed, they still overtake and then slam the brakes on. Not like they got any further by doing that!


lol I hate that.


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## Paintmaster1982 (Oct 23, 2007)

blackS2000 said:


> Too all the driving god's who happily go around sounding the horn at any and all who do not come up to their own high and mighty idea of what's good and what's not good when out driving I would ask a question ?
> 
> What form of advanced driving course's have you undertaken ?
> 
> ...


I've not been on an advanced driving or extra training. What I do have is 13 years of experience. I think that counts for allot. I'am not claiming I am better than the next but think of it like a job.

If your a window cleaner who has just started out and had the extra special window cleaning training that cost £500. Do you still think he would be a better window cleaner than someone who has done it for 10, 15 or 20 years?

Driving is a skill. My mrs is an ok driver she has taken the advanced driving course when she passed her test but she still says she isn't confident on the road. So just because you have the training doesn't automatically reduce your driving ability to that of a monkey.


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

Paintmaster1982 said:


> I've not been on an advanced driving or extra training. What I do have is 13 years of experience. I think that counts for allot. I'am not claiming I am better than the next but think of it like a job.
> 
> If your a window cleaner who has just started out and had the extra special window cleaning training that cost £500. Do you still think he would be a better window cleaner than someone who has done it for 10, 15 or 20 years?
> 
> Driving is a skill. My mrs is an ok driver she has taken the advanced driving course when she passed her test but she still says she isn't confident on the road. So just because you have the training doesn't automatically reduce your driving ability to that of a monkey.


My other half is in the police and does the advanced police driving courses, as do the other officers she works with.

Her driving isn't the best as she often makes little silly mistakes.

There never seems to be a week goes past in the station with an enquiry who has bumped one of the police cars and not said anything.

I have the opinion that there is only so much teaching you can do. You can teach as much as you want, but if that person doesn't have the ability, it doesn't matter.

One of the most important aspects of driving is awareness. You just can't teach people that.


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## ianrobbo1 (Feb 13, 2007)

I've a class 1 HGV or LGV as they now call it, ex Army HGV instructor, I've a full motorbike license, IAM observer ROSPA, and 37 years driving experience, does that count


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## alan hanson (May 21, 2008)

@black s2000

i understand where your coming from, but if your saying that anyone has a basic license is just as skilled or worse than those who choose to do 30 in a 60 then thats wrong. As many have stated 30 in a 60 could land you in trouble and is endangering other members of the public.

Going on advanced courses allows you to question everything and anyone? really? how about the one thing that should ask the questions are the conditions.

Having said all this i dont believe using your horn is the answer, maybe a flash of you lights? but ultimately if you dont feel/deem it safe to overtake then you just have to sit and bare it, if someone decides behind you to over take thats there choice and nothing you can do but leave space just in case they need to pull in quickly


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## Paintmaster1982 (Oct 23, 2007)

Kerr said:


> My other half is in the police and does the advanced police driving courses, as do the other officers she works with.
> 
> Her driving isn't the best as she often makes little silly mistakes.
> 
> ...


Agreed :thumb:


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## Rowe (Jul 4, 2013)

If you can't drive to the speed limit, you should not be on the road


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## Paintmaster1982 (Oct 23, 2007)

ianrobbo1 said:


> I've a class 1 HGV or LGV as they now call it, ex Army HGV instructor, I've a full motorbike license, IAM observer ROSPA, and 37 years driving experience, does that count


No. I bet your **** at driving lol


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## possul (Nov 14, 2008)

You can't polish a turd
Some people just cannot drive, and training would only POSSIBLY help
I've had no advanced tests. I have avoided two accidents in the last week due to being cut up. Didn't use my horn as hands are doing other things at the time!
I feel im a smooth driver and i rarely brake when travelling around town. Never had anyone tell me im a bad driver and the people I know would tell me.
Was used to driving old dears to and from a garage were i did my apprenticeship so had to take it steady, very steady.
I still do as fuel costs money!


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## blackS2000 (Aug 4, 2010)

Paintmaster1982 said:


> I've not been on an advanced driving or extra training. What I do have is 13 years of experience. I think that counts for allot. I'am not claiming I am better than the next but think of it like a job.
> 
> If your a window cleaner who has just started out and had the extra special window cleaning training that cost £500. Do you still think he would be a better window cleaner than someone who has done it for 10, 15 or 20 years?
> 
> Driving is a skill. My mrs is an ok driver she has taken the advanced driving course when she passed her test but she still says she isn't confident on the road. So just because you have the training doesn't automatically reduce your driving ability to that of a monkey.


You miss my point . I am not saying the lack of advanced training mean's that you are a poor driver . I am saying the lack of training probably mean's you are an average driver .

Passing a basic learner test mean's that you are considered to be safe enough to carry on learning unsupervised .

Not that you are now a competent driver.

If you carry on driving as you were taught and building on that skill you may become a good driver . Without training you only think you are ok , you do not know .

Unfortunately , letting the steering wheel slide through your finger's , not using the "push-pull method" of steering ,not signalling properly , poor positioning at junction's and inappropriate speed ( to mention a few ) are the first thing's to go and not doing the above is an indication of bad driving despite how long you've been driving or what training you've had or whatever excuse you care to come up with .!!!

If anybody think's they are a good driver ( statistic's point to more than 90 % being "barely adequate "") Take a IAM assessment and prove it :thumb:

I stand by my previous statement !!

Blast your horn at a wrinkly and tell all and sundry your crap driver !!


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## andy665 (Nov 1, 2005)

I attended a Speed Awareness Course last week after being caught doing 34 in a 30 zone

I ave done lots of advanced driving courses, do 50k miles a year and consider myself a good driver

Did I learn something - yes - not afraid to admit that I did and applying it in the last week as not increased journey times but has improved economy and reduced stress

What did shock me was the lack of understanding demonstrated by other people on the course - more than half we're female and all ages from 70s down to 20s

More than half thought that the speed limit on a dual carriageway was 40, most assumed that driving a few mph over the limit would never see them get prosecuted, not a single person knew what ABS or traction control did

I'm convinced that driver training needs to be radically improved and regular re-training / assessment would benefit everyone


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

andy665 said:


> I attended a Speed Awareness Course last week after being caught doing 34 in a 30 zone
> 
> I ave done lots of advanced driving courses, do 50k miles a year and consider myself a good driver
> 
> ...


Most people really don't care of have any interest in cars. That to me is one of the issues. When you don't have any interest you often treat that subject with contempt and don't give it the respect it deserves.

I'm not sure about retraining, but they certainly have to make it harder to get a licence.

You are only assessed over a short space of time (is it still 35mins?)and you can fluke it. You keep hearing about these people passing on the 30th+ attempt. I'm sorry, if you failed so many times it clearly demonstrates you can't drive and the day you passed was purely luck.


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## alan hanson (May 21, 2008)

same could be said for refreshers for peeps over a certain age and also foreign peeps coming here, should they be able to show they are up to a certain standard of driving (we have all seen the youtube clips of the back home).


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## Andyg_TSi (Sep 6, 2013)

andy665 said:


> I attended a Speed Awareness Course last week after being caught doing 34 in a 30 zone
> 
> I ave done lots of advanced driving courses, do 50k miles a year and consider myself a good driver
> 
> ...


To address the issue of driver training is simple in my eyes. Learning to drive and pasing tests should be in 2 stages

Stage 1. The current test leave it as it is, with a caveat that it doesnt qualify you to drive on the motorways.

Stage 2. Compulsory motorway tuition once passed stage 1.

Motorway tuition is there to teach correct lane discipline, how to use mirrors correctly to maintain awareness and how to perform passing manoeuvres safely.

Pass stage 1 & 2 and your a fully qualified driver for all road types.

3. Compulsary re-assessments every 10 years (or even 5 years) for the under 60's, then shorter re-assessments after

You can't think its OK for someone to pass their driving test after just 10 lessons (10 hours of tuition) and then be let loose on the motorway straight away without any secondary tuition at all.

As they say, you get taught to pass a test, 'learning to drive' comes once your out on your own!


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## alan hanson (May 21, 2008)

not sure about the every 10 years, now if i took a test now im pretty sure a bad habit would fail me hand positions/feeding the wheel perhaps, does this make me a bad driver? re-taking a test every 5 years is another expensive and excuse for the government to cash in also. if i took said test and failed, this would mean i would lose my job as it involves travelling to work and occasionally to sites? all this obviously depends on what the re-assessment involved i guess.


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## Andyg_TSi (Sep 6, 2013)

^^
Of course it would depend on what was included in any reassessment and to what degree you are allowed for ‘failures’

However, surely, its better to train everyone to the acceptable level first to instil good habits – especially for motorway driving, rather than try and impose petty fines to punish behaviours that some people don’t realise is wrong (EG imposing fines for middle lane hogging)

How many people think it’s acceptable to do 60 mph in lane 2 on the motorway (the middle lane) mile after mile, when there is nothing in Lane 1 (the inside lane).

Our motorways feel more congested than they really are due to poor lane discipline and awareness issues.

How many times have we all been on the motorway where lanes 2 & 3 (middle & right lanes) are bumper to bumper and lane 1 (left lane) is empty.

All the middle lane hoggers are effectively cutting capacity by a third as everyone pulls into lane 3 to pass (as it’s illegal to pass on the left – undertake)

Driving on the left (unless overtaking) appears to fail a hell of a lot of people.
How good would it be if people had the same lane discipline as shown by Germans on the Autobahns!!


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## alan hanson (May 21, 2008)

totally agree and yeah any motorist enthusiast of any kind its a pet hate lane hogging,but i'm still for fines for hogging its as simple as that lane is clear use it cant get any more simpler no training needed for that.

most drivers have been shown/taught good habits the problem with this country is most people are either too lazy to use them (indicators for a start) or there just too selfish to care about anyone else on the road. Manners would be nice


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## CoOkIeMoNsTeR (Mar 6, 2011)

Put it this way, if you knew the pilot flying the plane that is taking you on holiday took his pilots licence 20 years ago and hasn't taken a test or done any training since, you wouldn't feel comfortable staying on it would you?

People should be retrained, with refresher courses that you won't fail as such, like my local police force who are doing random sight tests and advising motorists on getting glasses, and loads of people carry on driving when they could do with a refresher just to make sure they are up to standard, and that goes for people who drive dangerously slowly aswell as the bullys who push said people out of the way, both can be as bad as each other.

For this poll, I've voted no, as using the horn would never be acceptable in this situation, you've just got to sit and wait until you can pass. I've had it so many times when towing the caravan, people doing 35mph in a 60, I can only do 50mph when towing there and if it's dual carriageway I'm never going to find a gap and it adds what feels like days onto the journey time, and I GET THE BLAME!!!!! That's the bit that really fries me


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

CoOkIeMoNsTeR said:


> Put it this way, if you knew the pilot flying the plane that is taking you on holiday took his pilots licence 20 years ago and hasn't taken a test or done any training since, you wouldn't feel comfortable staying on it would you?
> 
> People should be retrained, with refresher courses that you won't fail as such, like my local police force who are doing random sight tests and advising motorists on getting glasses, and loads of people carry on driving when they could do with a refresher just to make sure they are up to standard, and that goes for people who drive dangerously slowly aswell as the bullys who push said people out of the way, both can be as bad as each other.
> 
> For this poll, I've voted no, as using the horn would never be acceptable in this situation, you've just got to sit and wait until you can pass. I've had it so many times when towing the caravan, people doing 35mph in a 60, I can only do 50mph when towing there and if it's dual carriageway I'm never going to find a gap and it adds what feels like days onto the journey time, and I GET THE BLAME!!!!! That's the bit that really fries me


Towing a caravan?

You deserve everything you get. :lol:


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## CoOkIeMoNsTeR (Mar 6, 2011)

Very funny :driver:

I try to keep out of the way where I can though :thumb:


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## blackS2000 (Aug 4, 2010)

Retest every 5 yr's would solve a lot of problem's and reduce congestion and help the economy .

I have never understood the oft heard statement " I would never pass a test now cos I have picked up too many bad habit's " !!! 

But I'm still a good driver !! No way Joshua . Any body who think's they would fail a retest need's to hang up the car key's and get the bus .


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## DJ X-Ray (Sep 2, 2012)

^^ You're right actually, a few people i know say that, and they ain't the best of drivers but think they are


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## Paintmaster1982 (Oct 23, 2007)

blackS2000 said:


> You miss my point . I am not saying the lack of advanced training mean's that you are a poor driver . I am saying the lack of training probably mean's you are an average driver .
> 
> Passing a basic learner test mean's that you are considered to be safe enough to carry on learning unsupervised .
> 
> ...


I understood your point. And I am more than aware of my ability behind the wheel and make no excuse about my bad habits. Again I'am not saying I am the best driver in the world but at the same time I know a damn site more about lane discipline, distance etc then most of the twonks out there on the road. I past my test with 2 minors first time. Sure I let my hands slips through the wheel 90% of the time but anyone who says they have never done that is a liar. At the end of the day I know and seen how dangerous it is by people not doing the national speed limit. I live out of town and have to do a 50 mile round trip for work most day. People who are in to much of a hurry feel they are forced to overtake and risk their lives and others in the process just by the simple fact that these people think it is safer to do 20 mph less than the national speed limit.

Just to add in my first post I said back off and let them get on with it. I don't blast horns I don't need any advanced training to tell me that thanks very much 

another thing to add. I wonder how many Advanced Drivers out there look over there shoulder before pulling away from a parked position or checks their mirrors every 6 or so seconds or every direction change. Or changes to 3rd at EVERY set of green traffic lights.

Everyone has bad habits. So that means you must fall into the average driver category. I just don't agree that advanced means you are better.


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## andy665 (Nov 1, 2005)

Andyg_TSi said:


> ^^
> How good would it be if people had the same lane discipline as shown by Germans on the Autobahns!!


I find the Germans have very good lane discipline on 2 lane Autobahns but it plummets when they have 3 lanes, better tahn the UK but not by a great deal, middle lane hoggers are still there aplenty


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## Cookies (Dec 10, 2008)

Rowe said:


> If you can't drive to the speed limit, you should not be on the road


:doublesho

Now thats just a silly thing to say... 

Cooks


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## Zolasbackheel (Feb 11, 2013)

I voted no but my family is well aware of the perils of some elderly drivers as we lost a family member to an elderly driver who was not fit to be driving a car. I think everybody should have to retake there test every 10/15 years but when you reach retirement age it should be a lot more regularly as senses and reaction times really start to deteriorate then. I think beeping the horn only distracts the driver further though who clearly doesn't have the confidence to be doing the maximum speed.


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## Kiashuma (May 4, 2011)

I voted no, its not acceptable, just ram them off the road instead :lol::lol:


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## Benn (Aug 22, 2007)

I put yes.

As i'm i'm some where i dont know/lost and i was moving slowly i will pull over to let a car that wants to go fast than me pass. Which is just polite.
So i hate it when other people don't do the same.

I have no probs with people that want to drive at a slower speed, just don't force other people to do.


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## RisingPower (Sep 21, 2007)

Zolasbackheel said:


> I voted no but my family is well aware of the perils of some elderly drivers as we lost a family member to an elderly driver who was not fit to be driving a car. I think everybody should have to retake there test every 10/15 years but when you reach retirement age it should be a lot more regularly as senses and reaction times really start to deteriorate then. I think beeping the horn only distracts the driver further though who clearly doesn't have the confidence to be doing the maximum speed.


Why does it have to be elderly drivers who are not fit to be driving a car? Bit of a generalisation there as a lot of drivers have ridiculously slow reactions waaay before they reach retirement.

I love the idea that using the horn for this purpose is the correct use of the horn though and I'd love to see what happens to those that voted yes when they come across a tractor.


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## Zolasbackheel (Feb 11, 2013)

RisingPower said:


> Why does it have to be elderly drivers who are not fit to be driving a car? Bit of a generalisation there as a lot of drivers have ridiculously slow reactions waaay before they reach retirement.
> 
> I love the idea that using the horn for this purpose is the correct use of the horn though and I'd love to see what happens to those that voted yes when they come across a tractor.


I clearly stated in our case it was an elderly driver who was not fit to drive and believe me he wasnt. In terms of reaction times its a given fact that peoples reaction times slow as they age once they hit mid age. I also stated that everybody should have to retake their test so not really a generalisation, its just after retirement your reactions are at there slowest so for the sake of others on the road you should retest more often.


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## RisingPower (Sep 21, 2007)

Kiashuma said:


> I voted no, its not acceptable, just ram them off the road instead :lol::lol:


I think this would work brilliantly on big a roads/motorways where people just sit permanently in the outside lane. Hummer or jeep or bowler though to give them a helping push along?


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## Dannbodge (Sep 26, 2010)

I voted yes but not to show anger.

A beep to let someone know you are there or to show danger is acceptable. In your example I would have beeped them too as if someone was doing 60 behind they met on a blind corner there could be an incident.

Everyone moans about young people on the road but old people are just as bad.


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## RisingPower (Sep 21, 2007)

Zolasbackheel said:


> I clearly stated in our case it was an elderly driver who was not fit to drive and believe me he wasnt. In terms of reaction times its a given fact that peoples reaction times slow as they age once they hit mid age. I also stated that everybody should have to retake their test so not really a generalisation, its just after retirement your reactions are at there slowest so for the sake of others on the road you should retest more often.


In your case it was, but the number of older people I see with slower reactions compared to other drivers on the road desn't tally with elderly drivers being worse, just the general ignorant self absorbed drivers you typically get in cambridgeshire.

You get a lot of drivers who typically cycle 99% of the time and then drive in the 1% of bad weather and immediately the number of accidents and traffic increase significantly.

I appreciate the grounds for your bias, but my personal experience differs.


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## RisingPower (Sep 21, 2007)

Dannbodge said:


> I voted yes but not to show anger.
> 
> A beep to let someone know you are there or to show danger is acceptable. In your example I would have beeped them too as if someone was doing 60 behind they met on a blind corner there could be an incident.
> 
> Everyone moans about young people on the road but old people are just as bad.


Wait, wasn't the vote to use the horn to show anger?


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## Kiashuma (May 4, 2011)

RisingPower said:


> I think this would work brilliantly on big a roads/motorways where people just sit permanently in the outside lane. Hummer or jeep or bowler though to give them a helping push along?


I agree i joke with my wife all the time that i want to get an A frame on the Santa Fe and push folk out of the way :lol:

Bowler would be great, love those things :thumb:


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## james_death (Aug 9, 2010)

*No* its never acceptable and in fact is abuse.

Remember its a maximum speed limit and there are not that many of the minimum speed limits on the roads.

If someone does not feel comfortable travelling at said speed then no one has the right to bully them.


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## RisingPower (Sep 21, 2007)

james_death said:


> *No* its never acceptable and in fact is abuse.
> 
> Remember its a maximum speed limit and there are not that many of the minimum speed limits on the roads.
> 
> If someone does not feel comfortable travelling at said speed then no one has the right to bully them.


So you mean pushing them along in a jeep srt8 or hummer is out?


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## DJ X-Ray (Sep 2, 2012)

:lol:


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## stangalang (Nov 27, 2009)

Sorry I have to just add something here. Why are we assuming EVERYONE who drives slowly is an elderly, conscientious calculated excellent driver, and EVERYONE who gets frustrated behind a low driver is a young, menacing speed freak with no skills running late? Have you never been stuck behind the guy who doesn't want to wait in the que in lane one, so drives really slowly in lane two looking for a space? It doesn't come o he STOPS in lane two waiting. Stationary traffic on an otherwise moving motorway, is there anything more dangerous?? But I'm a bully if I beep at him, and it's dangerous cause what he will automatically crash into a wall in a fireball? Turn it in. Every situation is different. Someone ho has no patience with an unsure or slower vehicle in the correct lane is an idiot granted, but there are very dangerous people who drive slowly also! Selfish people, mobile phone users, texters, the list is endless. ALL putting other road users lives in jeapordy. ALL ignorant enough to hold up entire roadsways for their own gain. They are bully's, not someone who takes one for the team to let them know it isn't good enough. 
Yeah I beep at the middle lane sneaker who grinds wagons to a stop so he doesn't have to wait in a que. he is an ignorant idiot not a worried pensioner


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## Franzpan (Mar 2, 2009)

I think everyone should have to resit their test every five years or less, also tests need to be harder and longer. Judging if some one is able to drive in about half an hour is stupid.


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## CoOkIeMoNsTeR (Mar 6, 2011)

stangalang said:


> Sorry I have to just add something here. Why are we assuming EVERYONE who drives slowly is an elderly, conscientious calculated excellent driver, and EVERYONE who gets frustrated behind a low driver is a young, menacing speed freak with no skills running late? Have you never been stuck behind the guy who doesn't want to wait in the que in lane one, so drives really slowly in lane two looking for a space? It doesn't come o he STOPS in lane two waiting. Stationary traffic on an otherwise moving motorway, is there anything more dangerous?? But I'm a bully if I beep at him, and it's dangerous cause what he will automatically crash into a wall in a fireball? Turn it in. Every situation is different. Someone ho has no patience with an unsure or slower vehicle in the correct lane is an idiot granted, but there are very dangerous people who drive slowly also! Selfish people, mobile phone users, texters, the list is endless. ALL putting other road users lives in jeapordy. ALL ignorant enough to hold up entire roadsways for their own gain. They are bully's, not someone who takes one for the team to let them know it isn't good enough.
> Yeah I beep at the middle lane sneaker who grinds wagons to a stop so he doesn't have to wait in a que. he is an ignorant idiot not a worried pensioner


Agreed. There's a lot of fogey bashing here, but what about all the others who drive badly at an inappropriate speed?


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## psynx (Jun 19, 2013)

lol wow im really shocked at the poll results so far.


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## Steve Burnett (Apr 21, 2009)

Driving at 30 is dangerous. I have heard of the police pulling people over that can't drive at an acceptable speed (probably thinking they are drunk drivers??).

I was once on a b road coming home from work, good conditions and the car in front of me braked at EVERY corner no matter how small it was. That is very poo driving.
I didn't press the horn as that would probably resulted in the driver crashing as they were hopeless.


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## Alex_225 (Feb 7, 2008)

Personally I wouldn't beep or flash a slow moving driver especially if I can clearly see they are elderly. 

Yes it's frustrating and 'unsafe' in the sense that if you come round a corner to be presented with a slow moving vehicle it could take you by surprise but is that any different to going down a country lane and coming up behind a tractor or something similar??

What gets me are the people that tailgate and flash you because you're actually doing the 30mph speed limit. Absolutely staggers me how many people completely ignore that limit. There's I drive down every single day, it's a 30mph limit and although a long fairly open road, has various turnings and driveways. Yet hasn't stopped me being tailgated and have people overtake at some serious speeds.

I don't think anyone should be intimidated by another driver on the road. Simple as that.


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## Naddy37 (Oct 27, 2005)

Alex_225 said:


> Yes it's frustrating and 'unsafe' in the sense that if you come round a corner to be presented with a slow moving vehicle it could take you by surprise but is that any different to going down a country lane and coming up behind a tractor or something similar??


Limit points for the bends, and look out for the tell-tale signs of mud on the road.....:thumb:


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## Beancounter (Aug 31, 2006)

^^^ same with horses, fresh (as in not driven over - I don't get out to test how hot it is :lol horse poo, often means horse riders up ahead, an obvious thing you say, but so many people don't link the dots.

Would definitely like to do my IAM at some point, just need to find the time


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## muzzer (Feb 13, 2011)

neilos said:


> IMHO, no. And if you're at that stage you're not a safe driver as you're getting too stressed out and wound up behind the wheel.
> 
> You also have to remember, the driver in front may not know the road and is being extra cautious.


This, end of.


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## hostilis (May 24, 2011)

Not read the whole thread so apologies if this has already been mentioned.

But you will fail your driving test for not doing near the speed limit if another car is behind you on a country lane? - Or so that's what I was taught 5 Years ago when I passed, and my sister who passed only 2 years ago.

Although, I can see both sides of the argument described by the OP, personally I don't bother and just leave them enough room and be patient.


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## RisingPower (Sep 21, 2007)

hostilis said:


> Not read the whole thread so apologies if this has already been mentioned.
> 
> But you will fail your driving test for not doing near the speed limit if another car is behind you on a country lane? - Or so that's what I was taught 5 Years ago when I passed, and my sister who passed only 2 years ago.
> 
> Although, I can see both sides of the argument described by the OP, personally I don't bother and just leave them enough room and be patient.


I don't think that's strictly accurate. You're supposed to make progress on roads generally where safe to do so, not doing near the speed limit necessarily.

I'm liking the blanket statement of driving at 30 is dangerous though a few posts above :lol:


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## RisingPower (Sep 21, 2007)

psynx said:


> lol wow im really shocked at the poll results so far.


If that is orange county you're in, wouldn't they just get shot if someone beeped at them?


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## Natalie (Jan 19, 2011)

hostilis said:


> Not read the whole thread so apologies if this has already been mentioned.
> 
> But you will fail your driving test for not doing near the speed limit if another car is behind you on a country lane? - Or so that's what I was taught 5 Years ago when I passed, and my sister who passed only 2 years ago.
> 
> Although, I can see both sides of the argument described by the OP, personally I don't bother and just leave them enough room and be patient.


Taken from https://www.gov.uk/general-rules-all-drivers-riders-103-to-158/general-advice-144-to-158



> 146
> Adapt your driving to the appropriate type and condition of road you are on. In particular
> 
> *do not treat speed limits as a target. It is often not appropriate or safe to drive at the maximum speed limit*


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## RisingPower (Sep 21, 2007)

Natalie said:


> Taken from https://www.gov.uk/general-rules-all-drivers-riders-103-to-158/general-advice-144-to-158


http://www.learners-guide.co.uk/articles/reasons-people-fail/

Top one. Failure to make progress when there are suitable conditions to do so count as a reason for failing the test.


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## DJ X-Ray (Sep 2, 2012)

If your doing your practical and it's 50 for instance, and you're doing 42 or so and it's clear ahead, you will fail, that's coming from my old man's mate who's a DI.
I suppose the examiner classes it as a lack of confidence. Another thing he told me was that these days you can actually cross your arms and it doesn't matter if you don't feed the wheel, as long as the examiner can see that you're in control.
One more thing, in case anybody didn't know, these days you only do one manoeuvre! Which the examiner chooses. RRC, PP or TIR


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## RisingPower (Sep 21, 2007)

DJ X-Ray said:


> If your doing your practical and it's 50 for instance, and you're doing 42 or so and it's clear ahead, you will fail, that's coming from my old man's mate who's a DI.
> I suppose the examiner classes it as a lack of confidence. Another thing he told me was that these days you can actually cross your arms and it doesn't matter if you don't feed the wheel, as long as the examiner can see that you're in control.
> One more thing, in case anybody didn't know, these days you only do one manoeuvre! Which the examiner chooses. RRC, PP or TIR


What if you drift around a corner with one hand on the wheel, does that count as part of the advanced control bit of the driving test?


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## Benn (Aug 22, 2007)

RisingPower said:


> I'm liking the blanket statement of driving at 30 is dangerous though a few posts above :lol:


Well on the motorway it isn't safe.

I know a vicar that will no go over 30mph.

He was ticketed on the M25 a few months back, due to "causing a hazard" because he wouldn't do over 30.


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## RisingPower (Sep 21, 2007)

Benn said:


> Well on the motorway it isn't safe.
> 
> I know a vicar that will no go over 30mph.
> 
> He was ticketed on the M25 a few months back, due to "causing a hazard" because he wouldn't do over 30.


Is it safe to do 70 when there is visibility of maybe 20ft in front due to fog or torrential rain?

Again, that's a blanket statement.

There's another thing, as far as i'm aware, a minimum speed limit is only enforceable on motorways, yet similar volumes of traffic at similar speeds occur on a roads and tractors, cyclists etc can use similr a roads.


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## spursfan (Aug 4, 2009)

Only thing I know is that combined harvesters can get nicked for holding up traffic so quite often they pull over as soon as they can to let the queue of cars behind, go past.
It may be that slower drivers should do that as well, if they don't recognise that they are not keeping up with the average flow of the traffic and are causing tailbacks, then maybe they shouldn't be driving at that particular time of day or even avoid that road altogether.
Before I get slated, i found this on the web............

Top 10 - Reasons why people fail their driving test

Are you READY for your DRIVING TEST?
No 7. Driving too slowly.
Driving too slowly is seen as a sign of the driver lacking confidence. Use of appropriate speed is very important. If the road you are on, is clear and safe, then drive at the speed limit and not unnecessarily slow. Driving too slow can be frustrating for other road users causing them to to make unsafe actions such as overtaking, which can be very dangerous. Keep a good look out for any signs telling you of a change in speed limits and act accordingly.

Not sure that it is an Illegal thing to do but like some have said, maybe it does show a lack of confidence in that driver..


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## CoOkIeMoNsTeR (Mar 6, 2011)

Forget the excessively slow drivers out there for a minute, I've a rant brewing:-

To the twunt who thought the M25 was a racetrack at 10 this morning, 80mph in lane 4 making progress and passing all other traffic is fast enough thanks, I don't need you flashing your headlights trying to get past.

As it happened, just as I got fed up of getting on this moronic ape's nerves (I was still passing traffic btw, just staying on the cruise) someone in lane 2 moved out into the gap I was eying up. I was halfway through the manoeuvre and double checked over my shoulder and saw the other car, so I swung the Vectra back in to lane 4, and heard this guys horn. He'd tried to squeeze past me before I'd finished and had been totally oblivious to what was going on, still at 80 ish mph.

As I checked the mirror to move back into lane 3 once it was safe, I saw him dive in the gap and try to fly past me, waving fists and making gestures. He had 5 other passengers in the car and was driving like a small mule!

I could see he was going to pull put in front of me, but the gap was closing, and here maybe I did risk it a bit, but it wasn't safe to throw the anchor out now, still doing 80 in lane 4, so I booted it just to lose him.

Now wtf gives this lower than shark crap scumbag the delusion of grandeur that he can just flash headlights at people who are already licking the edge of the envelope (80 on the display is about 76 in the Vectra) and think that the rest of us will simply dive out of the way?

I'm sorry about that, but sometimes I have to do motorways and I hate them. We don't have any near where I live, and driving seems to get worse the further south east I go 

So what dya think about that one, acceptable to flash your lights and bully another road user out of the way at high speed? I think not, but its over to you :car:


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## RisingPower (Sep 21, 2007)

CoOkIeMoNsTeR said:


> Forget the excessively slow drivers out there for a minute, I've a rant brewing:-
> 
> To the twunt who thought the M25 was a racetrack at 10 this morning, 80mph in lane 4 making progress and passing all other traffic is fast enough thanks, I don't need you flashing your headlights trying to get past.
> 
> ...


The outside lane is for overtaking, regardless of speed.

If you were impeding other peoples progress when there is no traffic in front of you and spaces to pull in in front of slower moving traffic, then yes, I don't see the issue with flashing lights to make people aware of your presence.

Also sounds like you failed to complete a maneuver because you hadn't anticipated another drivers actions.

The outside lane is not an 80mph lane.


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## Andy from Sandy (May 6, 2011)

Benn said:


> Well on the motorway it isn't safe.
> 
> I know a vicar that will no go over 30mph.
> 
> He was ticketed on the M25 a few months back, due to "causing a hazard" because he wouldn't do over 30.


A police officer told me he stops drivers going more than 20mph slower than the limit.



> I don't see the issue with flashing lights to make people aware of your presence.


It is illegal to flash your lights on the German autobahns and depending on how you do it here you may well now get stopped.


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## CoOkIeMoNsTeR (Mar 6, 2011)

I take your point, but it wasn't clear in front of me, I was keeping a good gap IMO from the car in front and at the time, there was nowhere for me to pull in safely.

The guy who moved from lane 2 to 3 did not indicate, also I cannot stress enough how little I'd moved in to lane 3 before this guy tried to squeeze past, the inside wheels had just kissed the cats eyes before I had to commit to staying in lane 4.

Regarding the speed, some may disagree, but I felt the conditions and volume of traffic was to heavy to be going faster than I was, and so did the person in front of me, with whom I was speed matching :thumb:


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## Andy from Sandy (May 6, 2011)

This has been covered by other posters that people fail to anticipate the conditions and cannot take in all that is going on around them. If he could see the guy pulling out to where you needed to get to then he must know you couldn't and just be a little more patient.


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## RisingPower (Sep 21, 2007)

Andy from Sandy said:


> A police officer told me he stops drivers going more than 20mph slower than the limit.
> 
> It is illegal to flash your lights on the German autobahns and depending on how you do it here you may well now get stopped.


Actually, this I thought was the correct use of the lights, to make other road users aware of either an oncoming hazard or your presence.

You wouldn't need to flash your lights on the autobahns anyways would you?


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## Andy from Sandy (May 6, 2011)

That is why I put depending on how you are driving when you flash your lights and probably how. It is right that you give one single flash of about 2 seconds some distance behind the car in front. You do not steam upto their bumper and continually flash your headlights.


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## RisingPower (Sep 21, 2007)

CoOkIeMoNsTeR said:


> I take your point, but it wasn't clear in front of me, I was keeping a good gap IMO from the car in front and at the time, there was nowhere for me to pull in safely.
> 
> The guy who moved from lane 2 to 3 did not indicate, also I cannot stress enough how little I'd moved in to lane 3 before this guy tried to squeeze past, the inside wheels had just kissed the cats eyes before I had to commit to staying in lane 4.
> 
> Regarding the speed, some may disagree, but I felt the conditions and volume of traffic was to heavy to be going faster than I was, and so did the person in front of me, with whom I was speed matching :thumb:


Define a good gap.

You shouldn't be just judging by indicators as to where someone is going to go tbh.

If you were keeping up with traffic, yes, this happens on motorways and generally surely the thing to do is to let them past, where possible, but it's not like you can drive on significant roads and not expect this, if so, you probably should avoid those roads.


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## CoOkIeMoNsTeR (Mar 6, 2011)

RisingPower said:


> Define a good gap.
> 
> You shouldn't be just judging by indicators as to where someone is going to go tbh.
> 
> If you were keeping up with traffic, yes, this happens on motorways and generally surely the thing to do is to let them past, where possible, but it's not like you can drive on significant roads and not expect this, if so, you probably should avoid those roads.


The gap in this case was just under 2 seconds, as you say, headlights can be used to indicate presence http://web.archive.org/web/20090502...siveDriving/Flashing_Headlamps/Flashers3.html
But this wasn't the case here, it wasn't just a quick flash to let me know, otherwise it would be acceptable IMO

My beef is that the guy was so close behind me and tried to bully past in spite of my slight misjudgement moving into lane 3, so clearly he wasn't anticipating what I was going to do either. I think that is the bit that goes beyond acceptable and becomes bad driving. The hand gestures he was giving me were also not necessary, but meh, I'm glad I don't drive the M25 every day, the traffic drives me nuts :lol:


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## RisingPower (Sep 21, 2007)

CoOkIeMoNsTeR said:


> The gap in this case was just under 2 seconds, as you say, headlights can be used to indicate presence http://web.archive.org/web/20090502...siveDriving/Flashing_Headlamps/Flashers3.html
> But this wasn't the case here, it wasn't just a quick flash to let me know, otherwise it would be acceptable IMO
> 
> My beef is that the guy was so close behind me and tried to bully past in spite of my slight misjudgement moving into lane 3, so clearly he wasn't anticipating what I was going to do either. I think that is the bit that goes beyond acceptable and becomes bad driving. The hand gestures he was giving me were also not necessary, but meh, I'm glad I don't drive the M25 every day, the traffic drives me nuts :lol:


Shouldn't have been bullied by it then 

I suggest you don't switch jobs with neilos.


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## CoOkIeMoNsTeR (Mar 6, 2011)

No danger of that, I enjoy driving, but couldn't pound up and down motorways regularly, I'm gunna give the Porsche a blast round the island tomorrow and get it all out of my system :thumb:

I must be getting old already lol


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## Paintmaster1982 (Oct 23, 2007)

CoOkIeMoNsTeR said:


> Forget the excessively slow drivers out there for a minute, I've a rant brewing:-
> 
> To the twunt who thought the M25 was a racetrack at 10 this morning, 80mph in lane 4 making progress and passing all other traffic is fast enough thanks, I don't need you flashing your headlights trying to get past.
> 
> ...


What makes me chuckle at these muppets is the fact that they bully you, try to squeeze past etc they get that angry at you that they then go out of there way to follow you or match your speed that they forget why they were travelling so fast in the first place. 
They can't be in that much of a hurry lol divs.


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## alan hanson (May 21, 2008)

i had one on friday coming home from work along a country road, road is nice and straight can see ahead for quite some time, a car pulls out of a farm in front of me, i slow down, he travels along at 40 ish as soon as check my mirrors and indicate to pull out he pulls into the middle of the road! and then goes back once i do so i cant get past repeats this a couple of more times until i can no longer over take! Its not always those who wish to make good progress who are complete tools.


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