# S20 Black on soft paint



## steelghost

So I finally got around to giving the DAS6 Pro a go for the first time at the weekend :thumb::buffer: I was short of time so I decided to just focus on the front passenger door of our car which had some pretty heavy hedge rash on it.

The door was washed, decontaminated (iron / tar) and then clayed.

The tools of choice were Scholl S20 Black, along with Scholl's black waffle and "honey" spider pads. 
I started with the waffle pad, primed it (which seems to take more polish than I was expecting?) then added the "three pea sized dots" and set to. Maybe I wasn't pressing hard enough but even though I worked the polish until what residue remained was clear, it didn't do very much. So, I decided to move to the (considerably firmer) honey spider pad.

This time there was a considerable improvement after the first set, but it still felt like there was more to go. So I did another set which seemed to deliver something like the improvement I was after.

I didn't have chance to do any really critical comparisons or 50:50 shots as I went along as I was "assisted" by my 'detailing student' (age = 3 years old) but later that evening in the darkness of the unlit garage, I took the shots below assisted by an LED torch. You can see there are some marks left over but with this being a daily driver that we expect to keep for some time, chasing "flawless" paint is just not feasible (or sensible!).

Some observations: Not sure what I was doing wrong but getting the polish residue off seem quite tricky. I resorted to a spritz of BH Cleanser Fluid to take it off cleanly, didn't want to inflict marring through excessive buffing. I tried various grades / weights of MF towel, none of which really worked any better than the others. I wonder if, being water based, a simple squirt of water might have been enough?

After priming the pad I put my three pea-sized dots - once I'd spread this into the working area (roughly 50cm square) there seemed to be barely anything on the paint beyond a faint haze. Once I'd finished, lifting the pad off revealed a "pad print" of mostly clear residue with the odd purple speck of unused polish. Unfortunately I didn't get a picture of this; does it sound like I had too much / too little / about the right amount of polish on the pad?

Overall I'm fairly pleased with the results, next time I think a horizontal panel is in order to try applying a little more pressure to the waffle pad.

Any comments / observations / suggestions from more experienced hands welcomed.

*Before *(actually this is the other door, but still representative of the starting condition of the paint):









*After:*


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## FallenAngel

Really dont see a huge droling over scholl s20 when Sonax Perfect finish is better in every regard, better finish, better cut, wipes completly efortlesly. I need only one pass with PF on a white hexlogic pad on my KIA , dont know the paint hardness, to clear every single swirl on a panel. Good job though.


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## Summit Detailing

I found much the same as yourself OP re residue removal...an over rated polish imo and one which I may as well sell as I don't intend to take it out of the garage again.

Chris


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## steelghost

I was kind of hoping I'd just made some kind of polishing noob mistake since this was literally my first time doing any machine polishing :/


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## chewy_

FallenAngel said:


> Really dont see a huge droling over scholl s20 when Sonax Perfect finish is better in every regard, better finish, better cut, wipes completly efortlesly. I need only one pass with PF on a white hexlogic pad on my KIA , dont know the paint hardness, to clear every single swirl on a panel. Good job though.


You forgot to mention no staining of pads as well. Your white hex logic pad would turn black with s20


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## euge07

ive posted on the subject before, but s20 is a pig to remove and i wont use it again, 

ive now switched to sonax 04-06 but havent tried it out yet but I will do so very soon!


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## FallenAngel

@chewy
Sure, thats a plus too. 
@euge07 
04-06 should be almost the same as perfect finish, but as far as I could read online with more lubrication and specificly made for orbital polishers, where PF was designed with rotary in mind, but works great with DA too. I will be buying 04-06 when I run out of Perfect Finish, it's cheaper and it's designed to be used with DA.


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## steelghost

euge07 said:


> ive posted on the subject before, but s20 is a pig to remove and i wont use it again,
> 
> ive now switched to sonax 04-06 but havent tried it out yet but I will do so very soon!


Be interested to hear how you get on. I've emailed PB to see what they think. Next time out I think I'm going to try a bit more polish, and using QD to lubricate the pad, see if I can get a handle on how to get the best out of it.

That said, as a noob to machine polishing I am curious how this stuff (S20B) can be dividing opinion as it does, since there are plenty of folk on here who seem to rate it.


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## gibbo555

I'm one of the folk who rate it, I've only ever had some trouble removing it on an Audi I was doing, I slowed the speed and extended the set which seemed to work fine.


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## steelghost

Thanks for the hint, I'll try reducing the speed next time I use it and see if it helps.


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## euge07

gibbo555 said:


> I'm one of the folk who rate it, I've only ever had some trouble removing it on an Audi I was doing, I slowed the speed and extended the set which seemed to work fine.


it is a great polish but its the removal is my only gripe, even after wiped with ipa the paint was tacky and then made wax removal a nightmare,

have you used the sonax 04-06 yet? I'm really looking forward to trying it:buffer:


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## euge07

FallenAngel said:


> @chewy
> Sure, thats a plus too.
> @euge07
> 04-06 should be almost the same as perfect finish, but as far as I could read online with more lubrication and specificly made for orbital polishers, where PF was designed with rotary in mind, but works great with DA too. I will be buying 04-06 when I run out of Perfect Finish, it's cheaper and it's designed to be used with DA.


sounds great! I will be using it on a das6 pro plus and flex 3401 vrg so I'm looking forward to it, I also used to use the old menzerna range and it was good but I found it very dusty! sounds like the 04-06 should be perfect:thumb:


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## Choppy

I've had pretty good results with it so far on Porsche and audis but yes it was a pain to remove. Got a litre of sonax to try out next on a bmw on friday


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## steelghost

euge07 said:


> it is a great polish but its the removal is my only gripe, even after wiped with ipa the paint was tacky


BH Cleanser Fluid took it off no bother, I think there's something about the residue that IPA doesn't take off.

I think I'm also going to try a very dilute APC mix and a plush MF as an alternative way to remove the polishing residue.


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## chongo

Sonax EX 04-06 is the only polish I use for soft paints and PF, works great with L/C HT pads, bought this last year and still got half left, little to no dust, and wipes off a dream.


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## Hereisphilly

Yeah I'll echo what's above, ex 04-06 is an absolute dream to use and great as a one stepper

Spreads for miles and absolutely no dust

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


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## steelghost

I know what to try if I can't get on with the S20B then!

Still think there must be a knack to it, watching YouTube there's plenty of folks taking S20 residue off a panel with an ordinary towel and minimal effort.


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## chongo

steelghost said:


> I know what to try if I can't get on with the S20B then!
> 
> Still think there must be a knack to it, watching YouTube there's plenty of folks taking S20 residue off a panel with an ordinary towel and minimal effort.


How long are you actually working the product for


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## steelghost

I didn't time it, but at a guess, between one and two minutes.

I did find that it didn't really break down / go clear using the waffle pad. Using the honey spider pad, I was able to get the product residue to turn clear (bar one or two small purple specks that had come out from in between the foam "fingers" that make up the pad surface).

The appearance of the panel was basically dry, almost like hazed over wax, apart from where I lifted the DA off, which was where the clear residue could be seen.

The results I've got I've been fairly happy with (esp for a short first go with limited time to experiment); the fine wash marring and swirls have been pretty much removed, the lines remaining are almost all the horizontal hedge rash marks, which I don't want to chase (I'd rather keep the clearcoat on the car since in normal circumstances they're barely visible, I assume the sharp edges have been polished off).

Those lines aside, I assume that because the clarity of finish is good, I'd broken it down sufficiently to refine the finish. (When I say "good", I'm making no extravagant claims, but there's definitely no "compounding haze").


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## steelghost

So, PB replied to my email. They acknowledge that the residue can be tricky to remove and agree that something like Cleanser Fluid is the right sort of thing to use. Apparently the residue removal issue can vary with the paint type, which I don't really understand but there you go. Scholl are apparently looking into it but don't expect a revised formula to come out until 2018 

The other thing they said was that the Scholl pads (particularly the waffle type) are more absorbing of polish, and hence need a bit more product to prime the pad, and a bit more (say, 5 dots vs 3) for each set. But it does sound like my feeling that I wasn't using enough was right (and I was resisting the urge to add more since that is the noob mistake you always read about).

If all else fails I'll try the Sonax EX 04-06, at least it's available in smaller quantities than 1kg!


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## kingswood

reading with interest as was just about to buy a sample of S20 off ebay

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SCHOLL-CO...392736?hash=item2809b29e60:g:XU8AAOSwVL1WFWsZ

i thought the beauty of this was that its an 'all in one' no need to finish after a correction?


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## FallenAngel

kingswood said:


> reading with interest as was just about to buy a sample of S20 off ebay
> 
> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SCHOLL-CO...392736?hash=item2809b29e60:g:XU8AAOSwVL1WFWsZ
> 
> i thought the beauty of this was that its an 'all in one' no need to finish after a correction?


Just get a 250ml Sonax EX 04 06 and thank me later. :thumb: It is a true one stepper at it's finest. :buffer:


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## steelghost

kingswood said:


> reading with interest as was just about to buy a sample of S20 off ebay
> 
> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SCHOLL-CO...392736?hash=item2809b29e60:g:XU8AAOSwVL1WFWsZ
> 
> i thought the beauty of this was that its an 'all in one' no need to finish after a correction?


The photos in the first post are what I was able to do in my _first ever go_ using a DA :buffer:. From what I've since learnt from Rich at Polished Bliss, if I'd applied more product and worked it a bit longer, I would probably have been able to get to that state in one hit rather than two (and very probably got a better level of gloss due to the longer refining phase).

Either way, I think the ability of S20 to perform as a one step polish is not really under question, although it has its quirks like all products. What *is* an issue is how hard it can be to get the polish residue off after polishing.

Given I've already bought (1kg of!) the S20 I'm going to try to find a way to work with it, and by discussing it here, hopefully help anyone else who may have similar issues in the future. It's good practice to clean a panel after polishing to check the level of correction etc, especially if you're not very experienced, so given that I've already got the right products to do so, I may as well continue using them.

If you're starting from scratch and looking for a one-step compound / polish, then you might well want to look at Sonax first, since no-one is complaining about residue removal for EX 04-06, and the results would seem to be just as good as the S20.

*For those in the thread who've decided to change to the Sonax product, please come back and let me know your experiences!* It will save me asking you again if I decide I can't be doing with the S20


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## euge07

I will test sonax this weekend on a hard paint bonnet of a bmw to test it using orange and green hex pads


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## Choppy

I'm on a BMW tomorrow with sonax ex

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk


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## kingswood

FallenAngel said:


> Just get a 250ml Sonax EX 04 06 and thank me later. :thumb: It is a true one stepper at it's finest. :buffer:


£14 on clean your car.........guna buy some and hold you to that!

what pads should i be buying off detailing world to use it with please? ive a diamond pearl black VW golf using argos DA (poor and working class!)

ta xx


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## Hereisphilly

kingswood said:


> £14 on clean your car.........guna buy some and hold you to that!
> 
> what pads should i be buying off detailing world to use it with please? ive a diamond pearl black VW golf using argos DA (poor and working class!)
> 
> ta xx


Green hex works great, orange if you need a bit more bite

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


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## chongo

euge07 said:


> I will test sonax this weekend on a hard paint bonnet of a bmw to test it using orange and green hex pads


Try it with a MF cutting pad if on hard paint, you be surprised how it finishes on a MF pad:doublesho one tip, only apply a bit of down pressure and the last two passes just the weight of the machine :buffer:


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## FallenAngel

Got your answer about pads, I use it with ornage hex, white hex, green it does the job with each one it just depends how much cut is needed. Never tried it with microfiber pads though, that gave me an idea :buffer::thumb:


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## Arvi

Do you ever wish once you have made made a post, then made a purchase, you shouldn't revisit the forum?! 

Just ordered the S20 on Monday and now reading this. That said a couple of threads I have seen with good reviews of the S20 will hopefully mean I haven't messed up, or is it really worth trying to get it exchanged for the Sonax? (BMW Sapphire Black paint)


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## chewy_

Was it 1L bottle that you ordered Arvi? Why didn't you just get the Sonax in the first place? 

Maybe a good idea to give the s20 a go now you've paid for it, just don't use it with white polishing pads lol


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## steelghost

Arvi said:


> Do you ever wish once you have made made a post, then made a purchase, you shouldn't revisit the forum?!
> 
> Just ordered the S20 on Monday and now reading this. That said a couple of threads I have seen with good reviews of the S20 will hopefully mean I haven't messed up, or is it really worth trying to get it exchanged for the Sonax? (BMW Sapphire Black paint)


From what I've seen, the polish is perfectly capable of delivering the results that people have praised it for.

It does seem the residue is harder to get off than for some other polishes. That said, given that you want to be wiping down a panel after you polish it to be sure there's no swirls being hidden by trace amounts of residue, I'm not sure this is a disaster.

Depending on how much you think it might bother you, if your supplier will take back the S20 without charging you, and even better if they sell the Sonax gear, I see no harm in trying that first.


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## Arvi

Choppy said:


> I've had pretty good results with it so far on Porsche and audis but yes it was a pain to remove. Got a litre of sonax to try out next on a bmw on friday


Be good to hear how you get on with this mate, what colour is the BMW?

Steelghost - was purchased through CYC so if I decide to change hopefully they can assist. I've got G Techniq Panel wipe to use after before using their sealant so want a decent base. What microfibers you been using to take off polish?

And for anyone else can they recommend a pad to go with Sonax on BMW Black paint?


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## Choppy

Not sure what the colour is called but its this car









Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk


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## Arvi

Thats a beast! Always think about getting a bigger car and do like these. Have fun detailing it.


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## steelghost

Arvi said:


> Steelghost - was purchased through CYC so if I decide to change hopefully they can assist. I've got G Techniq Panel wipe to use after before using their sealant so want a decent base. What microfibers you been using to take off polish?


I tried a few different kinds - very short closed loop, plush buffing one, 'ordinary' weight split pile, which in the end was what I settled on as a) I had more of those available, and b) they seemed to be marginally more effective than the others (they were all uniformly useless without the Cleanser Fluid, mind!)


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## Gussy

Arvi said:


> Do you ever wish once you have made made a post, then made a purchase, you shouldn't revisit the forum?!
> 
> Just ordered the S20 on Monday and now reading this. That said a couple of threads I have seen with good reviews of the S20 will hopefully mean I haven't messed up, or is it really worth trying to get it exchanged for the Sonax? (BMW Sapphire Black paint)


This 1000% mate. I'm really pedantic about reviewing stuff before I buy and have just shelled out quite a bit of cash to buy 1 litre of S20. Some reviews are glowing and then you come across certain threads that says it's a terrible product and there are so much better products out there. It's not a new phenomenon either there are many products on here that are the bees knees one week and terrible the next. Very frustrating. I'll give the S20 a go though and see how I go.


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## steelghost

chongo said:


> Sonax EX 04-06 is the only polish I use for soft paints and PF, works great with L/C HT pads, bought this last year and still got half left, little to no dust, and wipes off a dream.


Out of interest what grade / colour of the HT pads do you use - I suppose orange?


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## galamaa

If you polish next time one set, then wait a little bit (let polish drying) then dry to buff of S20. Look, maybe it helps you, maybe not. S20 is very good product. Everyday hundreds or thousands peoples using this polish and off course sometimes product prompt you back and yes off course sometimes must chance polish, but first must to understand what the products doing for you. I also have Sonax PF, but Scholl also very good, my first choice. Sorry my bad english


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## The Rover

I use S20 Black on the majority of my Paint Enhancement Details.
The first couple of times using it I found it a bit of a pain to buff off.
But now I don't prime the pad & only use 3 small pea size blobs of polish.
As long as you work the polish long enough, it buffs off really easily.


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## chongo

steelghost said:


> Out of interest what grade / colour of the HT pads do you use - I suppose orange?


First I used a MF pad, then the crimson red pad to finish it off, you do get a bit of hazing from the MF pad. EX 04-06 is quite thin so that's why I used the HT pad, they are closed cell so the product stays between the pad and paint surface.:thumb:


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## st1965

I purchased some S20 in waxstock and have used it on my black mondeo ST with no issues...as someone has already said...i put 3 pea size dots on the pad and buffed until almost dry and it buffed off with no problems. So i can only post my experience using this product and have to say i found it ok


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## chewy_

galamaa said:


> Everyday hundreds or thousands peoples using this polish


Thousands??? Maybe 1 or 2 people but not thousands


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## st1965

Just done my front bumper an hour ago with S20 and had no problems buffing it off as i said on my earlier post...here are a couple of pics of my efforts ( please excuse the hazy light...it was taken with my phone ! )


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## Arvi

chewy_ said:


> Was it 1L bottle that you ordered Arvi? Why didn't you just get the Sonax in the first place?
> 
> Maybe a good idea to give the s20 a go now you've paid for it, just don't use it with white polishing pads lol


No just the sample pack Chewy. I wasn't aware of the Sonax until my parcel arrived and I saw this thread last week. :devil:


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## gibbo555

Here's S20 in action on Golf I did at the weekend, no issues at all with it


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## chewy_

Arvi said:


> No just the sample pack Chewy. I wasn't aware of the Sonax until my parcel arrived and I saw this thread lat week. :devil:


The sonax has been around ages, at least a couple of years:thumb:


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## Arvi

gibbo555 said:


> Here's S20 in action on Golf I did at the weekend, now issues at all with it


Thats the ticket! What was your technique - speed settings passes etc?

(apologies steelghost for hijacking your thread)


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## euge07

excellent work Gibbo!!


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## steelghost

Arvi said:


> Thats the ticket! What was your technique - speed settings passes etc?
> 
> (apologies steelghost for hijacking your thread)


No worries pal I was hoping my post would generate a bit of discussion, shared photos, technique :buffer: etc :thumb:

If anyone cares to post any pics of their paint after they've finished a polishing set with S20, but before they've buffed off the residue, I'd be interested to see it.


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## kingswood

looks photo shot!

was the rear quarter panel as bad as the door?!


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## st1965

kingswood said:


> looks photo shot!
> 
> was the rear quarter panel as bad as the door?!


I would have no reason to doubt the ability of this product as i have had as good results with it too ( see my previous post pics....they are certainly not "photoshopped " ) dont knock it til you try it


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## gibbo555

Arvi said:


> Thats the ticket! What was your technique - speed settings passes etc?
> 
> (apologies steelghost for hijacking your thread)


2/3 pea sized drops of product, spread around panel then up to 3 1/4 (differs from car to car) moderate pressure for 4-5 passes then light pressure until I'm halt with it, done on rotary btw.



kingswood said:


> looks photo shot!
> 
> was the rear quarter panel as bad as the door?!


No photoshop here


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## steelghost

kingswood said:


> looks photo shot!


Nope, it looks polished :lol:


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## euge07

gibbo555 said:


> 2/3 pea sized drops of product, spread around panel then up to 3 1/4 (differs from car to car) moderate pressure for 4-5 passes then light pressure until I'm halt with it, done on rotary btw.
> 
> No photoshop here


not familiar with rotary, so would that be about speed 5 on a da/flex 3401?


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## gibbo555

euge07 said:


> not familiar with rotary, so would that be about speed 5 on a da/flex 3401?


I'd imagine 5/6 would be the setting on the DA, I use 5/6 on the rupes anyway


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## delboy828

S20 black is pretty effortless to remove.. I used it in little DA polishing vid for people new to machine polishing.. I dont use IPA or cleaner wipedowns.. I just wipe it off after working it.

See 17:20 into the vid






Ill check out if its harder to remove if you underwork it.. Although my gut theory is it shouldnt be.. I tend to overwork the hell out of it when I use it because it just seems to keep going and give a better finish. Most other abrasives you need to pay attention to the work times.

Also could it be you are not using a good absorbent cloth.. The product has a ton of lubrication in it so if you use a short nap closed loop microfiber you will struggle to absorb it on a wiping pass and just end up smearing it all around.

I tend to favour the scholl concepts range because of the way you can overwork the abrasives with little or no consequences..


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## steelghost

Thanks for the thoughts. I found that the residue was essentially dry - there was nothing to absorb, it was like trying to buff off wax which had been applied too thick and left too long. I suspect I didn't use enough polish, but then others have commented that they use a similar amount to be and have no problems. That said, I understand the Scholl pads are more absorbent than some so I need to play around with the amount of product I'm using and see how that changes things.


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## delboy828

were you working outside in sunlight? and what cloths were you using mate?


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## steelghost

delboy828 said:


> were you working outside in sunlight? and what cloths were you using mate?


Outdoors, yes, but it was about 9.45 in the morning, and the sun rose on the other side of the house, so the panel (a door) wasn't in the sun yet.

Towels wise, I tried plush ones (Ragmaster Eagle Edgeless and Platinum Pluffle), short pile ones (Polished Bliss Utility Towel) and in between (both sides of a Serious Performance ArUber Towel, which has a longer and a shorter pile face). None of them were much use unless I either applied more force than I was comfortable with, or used Bilt Hamber Cleanser Fluid to take it off (which worked a treat).


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## Christian6984

steelghost said:


> Outdoors, yes, but it was about 9.45 in the morning, and the sun rose on the other side of the house, so the panel (a door) wasn't in the sun yet.
> 
> Towels wise, I tried plush ones (Ragmaster Eagle Edgeless and Platinum Pluffle), short pile ones (Polished Bliss Utility Towel) and in between (both sides of a Serious Performance ArUber Towel, which has a longer and a shorter pile face). None of them were much use unless I either applied more force than I was comfortable with, or used Bilt Hamber Cleanser Fluid to take it off (which worked a treat).


I used Scholl S20 Black on my fiesta (Colorado red) the other day and found it hard to get on with at times for the reasons mentioned above. Very Difficult to remove and unable to over work it. I tried using more product and working a slightly smaller area to see it it would work longer. I found it didn't seem to break down to a sort of clear film thats simple to buff off as most do.

Eventually i seemed to get on better by using less product, spread it out very well on low speed before making the overlapping passes on speed 3 ish (flex3401). This allowed a long work time and made it easy to remove and not as describe like a thick wax left too long as when i started with it. Only problem was it didn't always seem to work and particularly with the pad of choice. It was much nicer to use on the Sonus SFX polishing pad than it was on the LC HT polishing pad, it jumped and dragged and skipped about too much no matter how much or little product was on the pad. Slightly baffled to say the least. The results are good but for ease of working with it wasn't great, was a touch of disappointment as i find S3 and S17 a pleasure to work with


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