# Badge Snobbery Discussion



## Derekh929

Please don't enter the discussion if easily offended 

First up just seen the thread re premium 4x4 new for under £25k

1. Do you buy your car for performace, fuel economy , image , Brand , looks, service costs, drivetrain , handling etc

2. Does it bother you watch badge is on the front I liked a Skoda Fabian as second car, and for daughter to learn to drive but this did not go down well, so it was onto seat ibiza.

3. What percentage of cars do you think are bought for the badge on premium brands and do you think they are diluting there brand image with clones.


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## Dannbodge

I buy the car that I want.
However I wouldn't buy something like a brand new hyundai over a 3yr old 3 series.

I find lots of people have premium branded cars on finance just so they can have a premium branded car.


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## Derekh929

Dannbodge said:


> I buy the car that I want.
> However I wouldn't buy something like a brand new hyundai over a 3yr old 3 series.
> 
> I find lots of people have premium branded cars on finance just so they can have a premium branded car.


Thanks for that good point on the 3 year old BM rather than Hyundai is this because of deprecation? Or better all round car? Thanks Derek


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## Dannbodge

Derekh929 said:


> Thanks for that good point on the 3 year old BM rather than Hyundai is this because of deprecation? Or better all round car? Thanks Derek


I'd buy the BMW because that would be the car I want. I wouldn't be buying it because of the badge I would just want the better car.

Like I would never choose an audi or merc etc over a BMW.

I wouldn't say no to a skoda but it would have to be a good price and good spec.


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## Avanti

Derekh929 said:


> Please don't enter the discussion if easily offended
> 
> First up just seen the thread re premium 4x4 new for under £25k
> 
> *1. Do you buy your car for performace, fuel economy , image , Brand , looks, service costs, drivetrain , handling etc*
> 
> 2. Does it bother you watch badge is on the front I liked a Skoda Fabian as second car, and for daughter to learn to drive but this did not go down well, so it was onto seat ibiza.
> 
> 3. What percentage of cars do you think are bought for the badge on premium brands and do you think they are diluting there brand image with clones.


I buy for all the reasons listed in (1) not necessarily in that order though.
That said if I won the lotto, I may try some cars that ordinarily I wouldn't buy with my hard earned , not necessarily super cars other than if you cal an Alfa 4C a super car.


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## Derekh929

Avanti said:


> I buy for all the reasons listed in (1) not necessarily in that order though.
> That said if I won the lotto, I may try some cars that ordinarily I wouldn't buy with my hard earned , not necessarily super cars other than if you cal an Alfa 4C a super car.


Good point as different decision if company car or business use etc than own private car


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## svended

I thin buying a car has quite a degree of snobbery and also just buying what you know either from first hand experience or second hand (ie family member or friend) and not wanting to step out of their comfort zone and try something else. 
I don't think I've ever been a badge snob and after seeing what's available now on the market today, being a badge snob is just going to hit your pocket unnecessarily especially in this time of price rises on virtually everything.


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## andy665

Brand is a consideration for me but I think a more relevant question is:

"Do you buy what you believe will impress others"

I may need to buy a cheap family barge in the next few weeks, pretty much decided its going to be an old Saab, absolutely no badge / brand consideration, absolutely everything to do with value for money, safety and reputation for relative toughness and dependability

The Alfa was bought because I wanted it, same for the Boxster


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## Rundie

Dannbodge said:


> I find lots of people have premium branded cars on finance just so they can have a premium branded car.


Loads of people buy any make of car on finance or personal lease plans otherwise they wouldn't be able to own them, I purchased my first 'premium brand' (BMW) because I love it. 
I've had Ford, VW, Toyotas, Mitsubishi and even an old battered Rover and each in it's own way ticked a box.
BTW, I paid cash (well, debit card) for my BMW


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## danwel

I generally like to buy something a bit out ofmthe ordinary that's not something you see everyday but it's getting harder and harder especially as it now needs to tick the family box as I've got a one year old and three year old.


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## Dannbodge

Rundie said:


> Loads of people buy any make of car on finance or personal lease plans otherwise they wouldn't be able to own them, I purchased my first 'premium brand' (BMW) because I love it.
> I've had Ford, VW, Toyotas, Mitsubishi and even an old battered Rover and each in it's own way ticked a box.
> BTW, I paid cash (well, debit card) for my BMW


Don't get me wrong there is nothing wrong with it. It's just imo the principle.

I paid cash for mine....but then again it wasn't that much lol


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## realist

Derek, I had this exact dilemma , had a 1.8 Zetec focus but with a growing family, dog and caravan in Cornwall I needed something bigger, 4year old well specked 330d or 3year mondeo, chose the bm, 4years no problems, I'll never sell it, can't speak highly enough of it:wave:


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## R7KY D

I buy whatever I can afford and usually a bit more that I didn't budget for but thought sod it anyway 

It seems to have got me a better car each time


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## Derekh929

andy665 said:


> Brand is a consideration for me but I think a more relevant question is:
> 
> "Do you buy what you believe will impress others"
> 
> I may need to buy a cheap family barge in the next few weeks, pretty much decided its going to be an old Saab, absolutely no badge / brand consideration, absolutely everything to do with value for money, safety and reputation for relative toughness and dependability
> 
> The Alfa was bought because I wanted it, same for the Boxster


Very good point re impress others it's the enjoyment for me researching my new car and drivetrain and handling more important than looks IMHO

Good point re family barge , I had our first second car an old Astra that served us very well for the cost


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## possul

I've owned all the cars except one as the cost me £65 or less
I'm still rolling round in bangers tbh as I'm yet to be able to afford a car I want (as a daily) rather than fits a need.
Currently driving a 02 focus as I cost me nothing, just repairs it needed £300 I've spent £130 in 3 years on a exhaust (not included oils, wipers, etc etc) 
I'd never get a newer car for that money.
I want a alfa 159 for my next car but there will be a mechanical sound 54 plate mondeo tdci coming for sale soon for £700 already seen that clocking 55mpg which is more important for me nowadays since new job an longer distance.
If I was to buy a new car if of Kia or vauxhall for the warranty you get.
Not a snob at all. Couldn't care less what people think


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## Derekh929

Rundie said:


> Loads of people buy any make of car on finance or personal lease plans otherwise they wouldn't be able to own them, I purchased my first 'premium brand' (BMW) because I love it.
> I've had Ford, VW, Toyotas, Mitsubishi and even an old battered Rover and each in it's own way ticked a box.
> BTW, I paid cash (well, debit card) for my BMW


Yes good point re finance and as business makes sense , and good point re premium brand reasoning, because you love it:thumb:


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## Derekh929

realist said:


> Derek, I had this exact dilemma , had a 1.8 Zetec focus but with a growing family, dog and caravan in Cornwall I needed something bigger, 4year old well specked 330d or 3year mondeo, chose the bm, 4years no problems, I'll never sell it, can't speak highly enough of it:wave:


I may be very bias as had e46 330d m&s port touring , e90 330d m sport , then hankered after a change was keen on Merc if the next c class wa out I might have been tempted , but went safe lol F31 330d m Sport the best car I have ever has love it


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## Derekh929

possul said:


> I've owned all the cars except one as the cost me £65 or less
> I'm still rolling round in bangers tbh as I'm yet to be able to afford a car I want (as a daily) rather than fits a need.
> Currently driving a 02 focus as I cost me nothing, just repairs it needed £300 I've spent £130 in 3 years on a exhaust (not included oils, wipers, etc etc)
> I'd never get a newer car for that money.
> I want a alfa 159 for my next car but there will be a mechanical sound 54 plate mondeo tdci coming for sale soon for £700 already seen that clocking 55mpg which is more important for me nowadays since new job an longer distance.
> If I was to buy a new car if of Kia or vauxhall for the warranty you get.
> Not a snob at all. Couldn't care less what people think


That reminds me on the Astra we had as second car cost very little and did all repairs myself at little cost A to B cheap transport .
Similar I buy a car for me and family, mainly me, and am never worried about what others say:thumb:


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## Kerr

I'm not a brand snob at all. The badge makes little difference to me. 

The discussion we have too often on the BMW forums is about the 6 cylinder snobs. 

I actually find it's the opposite way about. Guys who buy their BMWs with the bigger engines often care more about the driving experience and refinement, whereas those with the small engines have bought the car based on the badge on the bonnet. 

They can't pretend they don't have a complex about it. Just look at how many people talk about their BMWs and you know if they just refer to it as a E92 etc, that means it has a small engine. 

Without any shadow of a doubt the brand with the biggest level of snobbery at the moment is Audi. A huge percentage of people really desire that badge at the moment.


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## craigeh123

I drive an mg , everyone slates them lol but they are a very good car for the money


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## Derekh929

Kerr said:


> I'm not a brand snob at all. The badge makes little difference to me.
> 
> The discussion we have too often on the BMW forums is about the 6 cylinder snobs.
> 
> I actually find it's the opposite way about. Guys who buy their BMWs with the bigger engines often care more about the driving experience and refinement, whereas those with the small engines have bought the car based on the badge on the bonnet.
> 
> They can't pretend they don't have a complex about it. Just look at how many people talk about their BMWs and you know if they just refer to it as a E92 etc, that means it has a small engine.
> 
> Without any shadow of a doubt the brand with the biggest level of snobbery at the moment is Audi. A huge percentage of people really desire that badge at the moment.


Very good points on 6 cylinder snobbery oh dear I will own up know I was so close to buying the 328i then I botled it I went for my fourth 3 series 6 cylinder , have to say in the past if I could have had the BMW drivetrain and handling in the Merc or Audi I would have changed brands for sure but I like the look of the new 3 series

:lol: so that's why I say I have an F31 330d m sport found out again


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## Paintguy

Actual brand names don't bother me too much as I get to see "under the skin" as it were and with so many cars are jointly built or sharing the majority of parts it's not how it used to be.

For example: Can't decide between a Ford Ka or a Fiat 500? Why bother, it's exactly the same car underneath the body panels! Just pick the one who's styling you prefer.

I do tend to prefer something of German origin myself. Not because of the badge fitted to the front, but because of the engineering involved. Sure they do have their problems, but on the whole seem to be much better made / more reliable than other makes. Whether that's BMW, Merc, or something from the Audi/VW/Seat/Skoda stable makes no difference to me.


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## President Swirl

The badge could say '' I like to molest Gorillas '' I couldn't give a t%%s, if the car is sound, and I like it.


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## Rundie

I kept a really open mind when I was looking earlier in the year for my 4x4. I needed something for the dog, having owned a pick-up for seven years I liked the driving position and four wheel drive. 
I wanted a certain level of quality and performance after the pick-up and started by looking at new Fords, Nissan, Toyotas etc. and they didn't do it for me, even Merc 4x4's seemed full of cheap plastic. 
The budget went out of the window, the final price I paid was around £10K more that when I started and the X5 was a few years old, I really struggled to spend the sort of cash I did but at no point was it because of the badge, it all came down to the driving experience, how it suited my lifestyle and the quality of the build.


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## possul

craigeh123 said:


> I drive an mg , everyone slates them lol but they are a very good car for the money


Had a 214i and 214si £50 and £65.
Didnt go wrong when I owned them but I did crash them!
So cheap it didn't matter


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## Derekh929

Paintguy said:


> Actual brand names don't bother me too much as I get to see "under the skin" as it were and with so many cars are jointly built or sharing the majority of parts it's not how it used to be.
> 
> For example: Can't decide between a Ford Ka or a Fiat 500? Why bother, it's exactly the same car underneath the body panels! Just pick the one who's styling you prefer.
> 
> I do tend to prefer something of German origin myself. Not because of the badge fitted to the front, but because of the engineering involved. Sure they do have their problems, but on the whole seem to be much better made / more reliable than other makes. Whether that's BMW, Merc, or something from the Audi/VW/Seat/Skoda stable makes no difference to me.


Good point re platform sharing and choosing the styling you like the best the 500 for me:thumb:

Your point re German engineering is some of my reasoning my new cars gearbox is fantastic , next car for wife seat ibiza


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## possul

Paintguy said:


> Actual brand names don't bother me too much as I get to see "under the skin" as it were and with so many cars are jointly built or sharing the majority of parts it's not how it used to be.
> 
> For example: Can't decide between a Ford Ka or a Fiat 500? Why bother, it's exactly the same car underneath the body panels! Just pick the one who's styling you prefer.
> 
> I do tend to prefer something of German origin myself. Not because of the badge fitted to the front, but because of the engineering involved. Sure they do have their problems, but on the whole seem to be much better made / more reliable than other makes. Whether that's BMW, Merc, or something from the Audi/VW/Seat/Skoda stable makes no difference to me.


Some fords and Opel are made in Germany iirc, would you buy those models?


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## Derekh929

craigeh123 said:


> I drive an mg , everyone slates them lol but they are a very good car for the money


Good for you , I think the MG ones looked nice and some very good bargains , just hope you avoided the Yellow coloured one's:thumb:


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## Blanco92

I actually like a car that is a little more rare, no badge snobbery over here.

I drive a SEAT Ibiza, preferred it over the usual Clio, Corsa, Fiesta, Punto lot because it's just a little bit different. I actually think it's better too but let's not go there... 

It's a Polo underneath, when I bought mine all the Polos of equivalent age were dearer, IMO that really is just badge snobbery.


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## Kerr

Blanco92 said:


> I actually like a car that is a little more rare, no badge snobbery over here.
> 
> I drive a SEAT Ibiza, preferred it over the usual Clio, Corsa, Fiesta, Punto lot because it's just a little bit different. I actually think it's better too but let's not go there...
> 
> It's a Polo underneath, when I bought mine all the Polos of equivalent age were dearer, IMO that really is just badge snobbery.


Not sure Renault, Ford, Vauxhall or Fiat drivers can be considered badge snobs.


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## Derekh929

Blanco92 said:


> I actually like a car that is a little more rare, no badge snobbery over here.
> 
> I drive a SEAT Ibiza, preferred it over the usual Clio, Corsa, Fiesta, Punto lot because it's just a little bit different. I actually think it's better too but let's not go there...
> 
> It's a Polo underneath, when I bought mine all the Polos of equivalent age were dearer, IMO that really is just badge snobbery.


We have done the same test drove polo well had it as hire car did 1000 miles and we are going for the seat ibiza copa as far cheaper than polo and nice look to it IMHO


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## Derekh929

Kerr said:


> Not sure Renault, Ford, Vauxhall or Fiat drivers can be considered badge snobs.


Not even in a RS500 or Mexico 1600i or RS2000


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## Dannbodge

Kerr said:


> I'm not a brand snob at all. The badge makes little difference to me.
> 
> The discussion we have too often on the BMW forums is about the 6 cylinder snobs.
> 
> I actually find it's the opposite way about. Guys who buy their BMWs with the bigger engines often care more about the driving experience and refinement, whereas those with the small engines have bought the car based on the badge on the bonnet.
> 
> They can't pretend they don't have a complex about it. Just look at how many people talk about their BMWs and you know if they just refer to it as a E92 etc, that means it has a small engine.
> 
> Without any shadow of a doubt the brand with the biggest level of snobbery at the moment is Audi. A huge percentage of people really desire that badge at the moment.


I'm guilty of that. When I decided I wanted a BMW I had to have a 6cyl.


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## Scotty Pro

I'm actually looking for a new car at the moment  and to be honest brand snobbery has never come into it, even for all my previous cars. I get what I fancy, for the price I'm willing to stump up, and I also get the best bang for buck I can.

Currently looking at Citroen DS4's so there is definitely no brand snobbery there :lol: but I will get a lot of car for my money, and I actually quiet like them, not to many about so will be a bit, whats the word I'm looking for ? exclusive :lol::lol:


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## Derekh929

Scotty Pro said:


> I'm actually looking for a new car at the moment  and to be honest brand snobbery has never come into it, even for all my previous cars. I get what I fancy, for the price I'm willing to stump up, and I also get the best bang for buck I can.
> 
> Currently looking at Citroen DS4's so there is definitely no brand snobbery there :lol: but I will get a lot of car for my money, and I actually quiet like them, not to many about so will be a bit, whats the word I'm looking for ? exclusive :lol::lol:


I would never have looked at Citroen until the DS3 and know DS4 two very destictive cars IMHO and I like the look of DS4 tbo


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## craigeh123

Derekh929 said:


> Good for you , I think the MG ones looked nice and some very good bargains , just hope you avoided the Yellow coloured one's:thumb:


Lol ! Did first time when i got my diesel zr had money so chose the colour went for grey . Second zr was a rush purchase after writing off the grey one . Had only the payout to play with and had to go for the 1.4. Petrol , all my prfered colours were sheds , the yellow one had good history so i bought using my head for once ! It took a while but the colours grown on me especially after i painted the wheels roof and mirrors black !


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## Blackmondie

I must admit there was some brand snobbery involved when I bought my BMW. But... I've driven many ford, VW, Merc, even a citroen,... but the little extra driving comfort you have with the BMW doesn't justify the extra costs you get with services, tyres, options,... I won't be so brand snobbery when I pick my next one. Might be the Kia Optima, Skoda Superb,... But I will look what brand of engine is under the bonnet. No PSA engine for me, I've had my share of problems with them, and will stay away from them, no matter what everyone else says.
I also do look at the size and the available option you have on a car, because you spent a lot of time in them, so I need them reliable, comfortable and big.


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## Kerr

Derekh929 said:


> Not even in a RS500 or Mexico 1600i or RS2000


Classic cars built on pedigree.

The new Focus RS is overhyped though and has snobbery. Mention the new Astra VXR isfaster on the track and they go nuts.


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## Derekh929

Kerr said:


> Classic cars built on pedigree.
> 
> The new Focus RS is overhyped though and has snobbery. Mention the new Astra VXR isfaster on the track and they go nuts.


I think the Revoknuckle if that's what you call it on the RS failed to deliver the purpose of putting the power down and reducing torque steer , still the green looks fantastic imho


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## Rundie

Dannbodge said:


> I'm guilty of that. When I decided I wanted a BMW I had to have a 6cyl.


Well, prime example I ain't a snob, I've just had to google to find out mines a 6 cylinder and I've owned it 6 months


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## Derekh929

Rundie said:


> Well, prime example I ain't a snob, I've just had to google to find out mines a 6 cylinder and I've owned it 6 months


:lol: we believe you  bmw are after customers that won't bother if they sneak out a front drive 1 series to share mini platform :thumb:


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## Dannbodge

Derekh929 said:


> :lol: we believe you  bmw are after customers that won't bother if they sneak out a front drive 1 series to share mini platform :thumb:


Eurgh a fwd BMW is just wrong.


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## Derekh929

Dannbodge said:


> Eurgh a fwd BMW is just wrong.


Yes it's wrong to enthusiast customers but bmw have filled every niche and need to sell more cars and many many buy bmw not for the rear drive or drivetrain or handling so makes great business to force enthusiast customers up to 3 series for RWD and share platform to save cost it will come I'm sure:thumb:
Example of this is with new 3's not offering manual box on 330d I said I would never have an auto know 5 months in I love the 8 speed sport auto it is fantastic and suits the engine , they won as I wanted the engine and they know next bmw I will spec the auto nice bit of more profit


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## Kriminal

Derekh929 said:


> 1. Do you buy your car for performace, fuel economy , image , Brand , looks, service costs, drivetrain , handling etc
> 
> 2. Does it bother you watch badge is on the front I liked a Skoda Fabian as second car, and for daughter to learn to drive but this did not go down well, so it was onto seat ibiza.
> 
> 3. What percentage of cars do you think are bought for the badge on premium brands and do you think they are diluting there brand image with clones.


^
1. I definitely put looks first on this one - it's alright having a high performance reliable brand, but if it's f'ugly I'd be disappointed every time I look at it.

2. I have mixed views on this one. I'd like to say my answer would be No, as I'm very fond of a lot of the cars owned on here. However, I do keep buying Audi's and BMW's (this being my first Beemer). My reasoning is that I just like the style, solid feel of the German car, and quality of the interior. Put it this way, if the same qualities applied to a 'lesser-brand' name, I'd buy it.

3. Probably full of idiots like me - once you buy one, you don't want to go back to anything else. And yes, there are too many clones out there - not just in premium brand names though, in my opinion.

:thumb:


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## Geordieexile

I've got to say the priorities change throughout life and depending on circumstances at the time.
For example, I bought the Cayman based on the whole package but mainly on handling combined with decent performance and a level of comfort. If it was just on handling and performance I'd have gone for an Elise. I also need some practicality so I bought an eBay special ... Citroen C8 MPV. I kept my diesel Clio GT that I bought new and gave it to the wife. That car was bought because I was commuting weekly to and from a new place of work. It all boils down to need.

If I could only have one car there's no way I would be able to have the Cayman and no way I'd want the C8 as its like driving a barstool.

The only badge snobbery I experienced wasn't from me, it's from the people who view you differently because of whatever piece of metal you step out of. There's a garage at the bottom of my village; I took the Porsche to fill up and the customers were all being nicey nicey and passing pleasantries whilst filling their Chelsea tractors, I took it home and went to the same garage with my knackered old Almera 10 minutes later and was pointedly ignored. It's pathetic, I'm exactly the same bloke whether I'm in a Porsche, Citroen, Nissan or whatever else. The general public are badge snobs but take great delight in slagging off Audi drivers etc. Unfortunately it's a sad reflection of society in general.


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## Derekh929

Kriminal said:


> ^
> 1. I definitely put looks first on this one - it's alright having a high performance reliable brand, but if it's f'ugly I'd be disappointed every time I look at it.
> 
> 2. I have mixed views on this one. I'd like to say my answer would be No, as I'm very fond of a lot of the cars owned on here. However, I do keep buying Audi's and BMW's (this being my first Beemer). My reasoning is that I just like the style, solid feel of the German car, and quality of the interior. Put it this way, if the same qualities applied to a 'lesser-brand' name, I'd buy it.
> 
> 3. Probably full of idiots like me - once you buy one, you don't want to go back to anything else. And yes, there are too many clones out there - not just in premium brand names though, in my opinion.
> 
> :thumb:


Your number one is interesting I have always viewed it as you don't see the looks when your driving but as I get older I like styling more


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## Derekh929

Geordieexile said:


> I've got to say the priorities change throughout life and depending on circumstances at the time.
> For example, I bought the Cayman based on the whole package but mainly on handling combined with decent performance and a level of comfort. If it was just on handling and performance I'd have gone for an Elise. I also need some practicality so I bought an eBay special ... Citroen C8 MPV. I kept my diesel Clio GT that I bought new and gave it to the wife. That car was bought because I was commuting weekly to and from a new place of work. It all boils down to need.
> 
> If I could only have one car there's no way I would be able to have the Cayman and no way I'd want the C8 as its like driving a barstool.
> 
> The only badge snobbery I experienced wasn't from me, it's from the people who view you differently because of whatever piece of metal you step out of. There's a garage at the bottom of my village; I took the Porsche to fill up and the customers were all being nicey nicey and passing pleasantries whilst filling their Chelsea tractors, I took it home and went to the same garage with my knackered old Almera 10 minutes later and was pointedly ignored. It's pathetic, I'm exactly the same bloke whether I'm in a Porsche, Citroen, Nissan or whatever else. The general public are badge snobs but take great delight in slagging off Audi drivers etc. Unfortunately it's a sad reflection of society in general.


Some very good points 100% agree with last paragraph I had the use of a Porsche for a while years ago and it's funny to see how people view you sad but true and your first line I missed from my OP spot on , thanks


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## Soul boy 68

I used to always drive frauds until I decided to take the plunge and go for the German brands and now drive an Audi and have to say they knock spots off a fraud any day of the week. They are better engineered and have a far classier styling and above all hold their value better. That's my opinion.


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## Derekh929

Soul boy 68 said:


> I used to always drive frauds until I decided to take the plunge and go for the German brands and now drive an Audi and have to say they knock spots off a fraud any day of the week. They are better engineered and have a far classier styling and above all hold their value better. That's my opinion.


Thanks for that, but do you not think depreciation gap has narrowed as Audi , Bmw Merc sell more and more to fleets it is hitting resale on high volume models?


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## Paintguy

possul said:


> Some fords and Opel are made in Germany iirc, would you buy those models?


I'm quite sure you know what I mean, which is why I was careful not to say "made in Germany"


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## Soul boy 68

I don't think so Derek as fraud also sell their cars as fleet, Germans cars just sell them selves and a friend of mine used to work for a fraud dealer ship and had to work very hard in convincing buyers to buy a fraud. He now works for Audi and he gets customers who come in and simply order their vehicles with out much hard work in trying to convince them to buy one like he had to with a fraud. Speaks volumes really.


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## Kriminal

Derekh929 said:


> Thanks for that, but do you not think depreciation gap has narrowed as Audi , Bmw Merc sell more and more to fleets it is hitting resale on high volume models?


I don't think I'd personally say the depreciation rate falls rapidly due to the volumes being sold as fleet cars - I just think it's like you pointed out earlier....more and more variations of the same model are being released these days. So it just keeps knocking down the value of the Mk(whatever) German car. When will VW stop putting new indentations on the Golf and releasing it as the 'new' Mk999?

Put it this way - I'd like to go back to my Audi TT, so will (hopefully) be looking at the Mk2 next year. At the moment, these are already becoming more and more affordable, as they started out on a 56 plate iirc. Knowing that a Mk3 is due out next year, the Mk2 will be hit, and plummet in to the affordability pockets of the school-boy-racer.

That's my 2p anyway - glad I got it off my chest


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## millns84

I'd buy the car I want/like. Badge is irrelevant to me.


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## Derekh929

danwel said:


> I generally like to buy something a bit out ofmthe ordinary that's not something you see everyday but it's getting harder and harder especially as it now needs to tick the family box as I've got a one year old and three year old.


Sorry I missed your input, yes the family box ticking has a habit of changing dreams and ambitions for sure that why your best to play safe :thumb:


----------



## S63

I got quite interested in the concept of badge snobbery. My previous two employers (both wealthy men) we're extremely snobbish and apart from a Bentley everything bought had to be German or Italian.


----------



## James Bagguley

I do wonder how much belief that one brand is better than another arises from good marketing on the part of the companies themselves.
I sold my 6N2 Polo GTI last week (finally) I have to say, the feel of solidity and quality about the interior was immediately apparent.
Not so much with my Honda, but it fulfills more needs in practical terms, and has more grunt too.
The Polo may have felt well built, but that particular model was (as i found) prone to gearbox failure, so i would rather compromise the "feel" of the car for the knowledge that the "grimy bits" wont (touch wood) let me down.

I would buy VAG again though, with some thorough research, and would love a BMW, though i had some good Fords too, its just what ticks the right boxes i suppose.

Sorry if thats all irrelevant!


----------



## Derekh929

James Bagguley said:


> I do wonder how much belief that one brand is better than another arises from good marketing on the part of the companies themselves.
> I sold my 6N2 Polo GTI last week (finally) I have to say, the feel of solidity and quality about the interior was immediately apparent.
> Not so much with my Honda, but it fulfills more needs in practical terms, and has more grunt too.
> The Polo may have felt well built, but that particular model was (as i found) prone to gearbox failure, so i would rather compromise the "feel" of the car for the knowledge that the "grimy bits" wont (touch wood) let me down.
> 
> I would buy VAG again though, with some thorough research, and would love a BMW, though i had some good Fords too, its just what ticks the right boxes i suppose.
> 
> Sorry if thats all irrelevant!


Thanks James , yes it is relevant and car purchase can be emotional especially when you pic up a new car for the first time as was was very lucky to pick up a new Opel Manta GTE at age 19 yrs , and I was so excited nothing changed with age really


----------



## CoOkIeMoNsTeR

Interesting question, for me it depends what the car is there to do. My 911, well, I was young, had saved a pile of cash, wanted one, so bought one! It was a dream car just from it's looks and presence, but these days has been put away for a bit of resto work.

The Freelander is going, I've found a buyer for it and we probably won't replace it. It has all the toys and it's a Land Rover, which I suppose these days is considered a premium brand, but it was cheap and Cat C, and was bought with an ulterior motive (bought my mrs a dog).

The Merc was an impulse buy, and if you're talking premium German brands, I'm a Merc man through and through, but if I wanted another performance car it'd be an M5 (Couldn't be an M3, I can't drive one; they give me a bad back :doublesho) I wouldn't buy an Audi, the badge just doesn't have any desirability to me at all, neither would I buy a VW for the same reason, if I was after what I consider a premium car, it'd be Swedish, which is my only replacement idea for the Freelander, an XC70 for it's interior design; I think it's a nice place to be. Part of the reason I dislike most German cars is the black interiors, I hate them! My Merc has an alpaca grey interior :thumb:

I trade cars, and I have a 407sw now. What a fantastic car! My youngest bro has a thing for Pugs and has just got a new one (508sw) and I can see why, this 2.0 HDi 136ps engined car is everything you'd want in a car, the climate control works, the seats are comfy, the dog fits in the boot, it's got some cool toys, 75k miles and it cost £1600. It even looks good (IMO of course).

Fuel economy doesn't really bother me, any brand reputation doesn't come into it either, like I've got a Peugeot so it's gunna break down and bits are gunna fall off etc, but that would never happen in a Passat (yeah right) etc

I wouldn't buy Korean yet, cos I don't buy new, but maybe in 5 years time, but will the price reflect it? If not then I'll stick to my euro cars.

Jap cars do nothing for me, at all. It's the interiors mostly, again black and hard plastics.

I don't really look up to premium badges and aspire to them, eg I wouldn't have a 320d over a Mondeo 2.0TDCi cos the 320d is all show and looks, but slow and boring to drive, the Mondeo is well suited to a 4cyl derv. I would consider a 6cyl BM only. I've had V8's, V12's and now a flat 6, so it's all about performance and these days comfort and I like my toys too  If I want it badly, practicality and depreciation go out the window somewhat


----------



## Derekh929

Soul boy 68 said:


> I don't think so Derek as fraud also sell their cars as fleet, Germans cars just sell them selves and a friend of mine used to work for a fraud dealer ship and had to work very hard in convincing buyers to buy a fraud. He now works for Audi and he gets customers who come in and simply order their vehicles with out much hard work in trying to convince them to buy one like he had to with a fraud. Speaks volumes really.


Some very good points re salesmans job easy for premium brands it must be a dream being a BMW salesman with there current line up imho


----------



## should_do_more

i think as well that there's a quality issue as well. badge snobbery comes from perception of the build and quality, which to be fair is true. however i wouldn't by a worse spec or older high mileage car just because other people think it is a better car, it would actually have to be a better car in my eyes.

as others have said i have a few so am able to pick a car for the job i want it for and that's a lot easier than picking one that has to be an all rounder.

the other thing is that more expensive cars are usually better built so if i can afford one i would buy it. life's too short to be driving crppy cars.

i wouldn't buy a car because other people tell me it is good...it actually has to be good and i don't care what other people think of me in it either.


----------



## Derekh929

Lets add a twist witch brands do you think attracts the most snobbery and the jealous remarks , I will open with Porsche for the most jealous remarks


----------



## Geordieexile

I honestly think Audi drivers take the brunt of the jealous remarks.


----------



## Prism Detailing

Derekh929 said:


> Some very good points re salesmans job easy for premium brands it must be a dream being a BMW salesman with there current line up imho


Not really, they have hard targets like everyone else to achieve, just because people like to own a "BMW" doesnt always mean they can, and with the recession finance is a lot harder to achieve, so I would say some of the (what is considered) cheaper brands become more appealing.

I have not really notice "badge" snobbery, but more plate. Maybe people would prefer to have a brand new Fiesta, Clio etc instead of a 3-4 year old executive car (like BMW/Audi/VW etc....).


----------



## CoOkIeMoNsTeR

Nobody's ever been jealous of my Porsche :tumbleweed: :lol:


----------



## Derekh929

CoOkIeMoNsTeR said:


> Interesting question, for me it depends what the car is there to do. My 911, well, I was young, had saved a pile of cash, wanted one, so bought one! It was a dream car just from it's looks and presence, but these days has been put away for a bit of resto work.
> 
> The Freelander is going, I've found a buyer for it and we probably won't replace it. It has all the toys and it's a Land Rover, which I suppose these days is considered a premium brand, but it was cheap and Cat C, and was bought with an ulterior motive (bought my mrs a dog).
> 
> The Merc was an impulse buy, and if you're talking premium German brands, I'm a Merc man through and through, but if I wanted another performance car it'd be an M5 (Couldn't be an M3, I can't drive one; they give me a bad back :doublesho) I wouldn't buy an Audi, the badge just doesn't have any desirability to me at all, neither would I buy a VW for the same reason, if I was after what I consider a premium car, it'd be Swedish, which is my only replacement idea for the Freelander, an XC70 for it's interior design; I think it's a nice place to be. Part of the reason I dislike most German cars is the black interiors, I hate them! My Merc has an alpaca grey interior :thumb:
> 
> I trade cars, and I have a 407sw now. What a fantastic car! My youngest bro has a thing for Pugs and has just got a new one (508sw) and I can see why, this 2.0 HDi 136ps engined car is everything you'd want in a car, the climate control works, the seats are comfy, the dog fits in the boot, it's got some cool toys, 75k miles and it cost £1600. It even looks good (IMO of course).
> 
> Fuel economy doesn't really bother me, any brand reputation doesn't come into it either, like I've got a Peugeot so it's gunna break down and bits are gunna fall off etc, but that would never happen in a Passat (yeah right) etc
> 
> I wouldn't buy Korean yet, cos I don't buy new, but maybe in 5 years time, but will the price reflect it? If not then I'll stick to my euro cars.
> 
> Jap cars do nothing for me, at all. It's the interiors mostly, again black and hard plastics.
> 
> I don't really look up to premium badges and aspire to them, eg I wouldn't have a 320d over a Mondeo 2.0TDCi cos the 320d is all show and looks, but slow and boring to drive, the Mondeo is well suited to a 4cyl derv. I would consider a 6cyl BM only. I've had V8's, V12's and now a flat 6, so it's all about performance and these days comfort and I like my toys too  If I want it badly, practicality and depreciation go out the window somewhat


Some very good stuf there thanks, M3 for me and another 6 cylinder bmw interesting trend starting , I looked at 3 series desiel when had young family a 4 cylinder but decided to get the new style Passat tdi sport instead at the time was a wise decision that Passat was great at the job in hand IMHO

Seen a few here get the Porsches but don't keep long , I have to say a love the Cayman s with white and 20" wheels and big brake kit stunning car


----------



## Derekh929

Prism Detailing said:


> Not really, they have hard targets like everyone else to achieve, just because people like to own a "BMW" doesnt always mean they can, and with the recession finance is a lot harder to achieve, so I would say some of the (what is considered) cheaper brands become more appealing.
> 
> I have not really notice "badge" snobbery, but more plate. Maybe people would prefer to have a brand new Fiesta, Clio etc instead of a 3-4 year old executive car (like BMW/Audi/VW etc....).


Yes targets high going by the discount I drove hard to get on my new Beemer between Harry fairbairn , John clarks and cooper bmw, but in the right part of the country must be easier than selling ford mondeo as price gap is narrowing is it not?


----------



## Derekh929

Geordieexile said:


> I honestly think Audi drivers take the brunt of the jealous remarks.


I could not possibly comment on that I will leave this for Kerr to comment:thumb:


----------



## andystevens

I bought my Evoque because I liked it a lot & it's as British as one could expect. That said I don't have any more passion for it than my 3 MG or Rover cars I have as well.
If I were to ever buy a German car then it would likey be an Audi but only a saloon car as they are more traditional in looks, Merc are OK but heard bad stories about some & hate BMW's so wouldn't go there. VW, did look (or rather try to) at a Polo GTi. Both dealers I went in were useless, one hopeless, VW obviously don't want to sell them as no one can get hold of one & one dealer said "Polo GTi huh we don't have one of those no one buys them) then I saw a dirty one in a McDonalds car park which answered my questions - It was boring to look at & any decent kit was way over priced & I really wouldn't describe VW as premium just above average!


----------



## Geordieexile

Derekh929 said:


> Some very good stuf there thanks, M3 for me and another 6 cylinder bmw interesting trend starting , I looked at 3 series desiel when had young family a 4 cylinder but decided to get the new style Passat tdi sport instead at the time was a wise decision that Passat was great at the job in hand IMHO
> 
> *Seen a few here get the Porsches but don't keep long* , I have to say a love the Cayman s with white and 20" wheels and big break kit stunning car


I honestly think it's because they are purely a driving car with little practicality. If you can have another car too then they're great. Awful for trips to B&Q though


----------



## CoOkIeMoNsTeR

Geordieexile said:


> I honestly think it's because they are purely a driving car with little practicality. If you can have another car too then they're great. Awful for trips to B&Q though


I see your point, but you'd be surprised at what you can fit in a 911, keep the rear seats flat and pack the front carefully and you're away.

OK, you won't be picking up any 8x4 sheets with it, but c'mon :thumb:


----------



## Derekh929

andystevens said:


> I bought my Evoque because I liked it a lot & it's as British as one could expect. That said I don't have any more passion for it than my 3 MG or Rover cars I have as well.
> If I were to ever buy a German car then it would likey be an Audi but only a saloon car as they are more traditional in looks, Merc are OK but heard bad stories about some & hate BMW's so wouldn't go there. VW, did look (or rather try to) at a Polo GTi. Both dealers I went in were useless, one hopeless, VW obviously don't want to sell them as no one can get hold of one & one dealer said "Polo GTi huh we don't have one of those no one buys them) then I saw a dirty one in a McDonalds car park which answered my questions - It was boring to look at & any decent kit was way over priced & I really wouldn't describe VW as premium just above average!


The Evoque has been a run away sales success , and to high exclaim , but I have started to see people switch out of them while prices still hold for know, I have driven the petrol and liked it but very cramped in rear, but I know reliability very patchy take a local new RR sport two gear boxes in 3 months and many others, so I'm supprised before you bought the Evoque you were not get driven away as well with the same reason as the German brands , I think it's more to do with your love of British metal than anything , else but I may be wrong


----------



## Melkor

I used to buy whatever car I fancied with no particular qualitys in mind, but this has cost me over the years so I now look for reliability as my number one priority, regarding snobbery it seems lexus had a hard time being taken seriously next to mercs , beemers etc. this didn't happen in America just the uk


----------



## Derekh929

CoOkIeMoNsTeR said:


> I see your point, but you'd be surprised at what you can fit in a 911, keep the rear seats flat and pack the front carefully and you're away.
> 
> OK, you won't be picking up any 8x4 sheets with it, but c'mon :thumb:


This is why I start these threads on a rainy day, classic ( you won't be picking up 8x4 sheets with it) so your the guy with the 2x2 6 foot out the front window of a 911 I saw in the B&Q car park:thumb:
Sounds like me when went to pick up a washing machine with the cooper s , the guy looked at car a scratched his head in it went


----------



## James Bagguley

Certain brands can bring out jealousy and snobbery etc.
There are those that have a reputation for being seen most filling your rear view mirror, and generally being piloted with a bad attitude towards other road users.
Another box ticked for my Type S, very easy for the above drivers to underestimate! :devil:


----------



## Soul boy 68

Geordieexile said:


> I honestly think Audi drivers take the brunt of the jealous remarks.


Could not agree with you more


----------



## Geordieexile

CoOkIeMoNsTeR said:


> I see your point, but you'd be surprised at what you can fit in a 911, keep the rear seats flat and pack the front carefully and you're away.
> 
> OK, you won't be picking up any 8x4 sheets with it, but c'mon :thumb:


I'm amazed at what will fit in the Cayman too mate. :thumb:
The combined size of the 2 'boots' is actually larger than my Clio. However, if I need to cart both kids and the dog round with a stop off at the shops then it won't cut it. I'm fortunate enough to have a practical wagon that I'd hate if it were my only car, but I happen to love as it does all the jobs my porsche won't. Most people I've seen get rid of a Porsche do it because they need some practicality. At least I can't be accused of badge snobbery with a C8 :lol::lol:


----------



## Derekh929

Melkor said:


> I used to buy whatever car I fancied with no particular qualitys in mind, but this has cost me over the years so I now look for reliability as my number one priority, regarding snobbery it seems lexus had a hard time being taken seriously next to mercs , beemers etc. this didn't happen in America just the uk


Very good point re Lexus and did drive the we car but it just did nothing for me but they win all the surveys for sure and not taken seriously for sure in the uk


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## Melkor

I drive about 500-600 miles a week in and around London and I have to say, it always seems to be BMW drivers that pull some horrendous stunts, I'm obviously not saying all BMW drivers are bad, just saying what I see on the road each day!


----------



## Rundie

Melkor said:


> I drive about 500-600 miles a week in and around London and I have to say, it always seems to be BMW drivers that pull some horrendous stunts, I'm obviously not saying all BMW drivers are bad, just saying what I see on the road each day!


Yeah, I've yet to learn how to not indicate and cut people up, can't find it in the handbook anywhere


----------



## andystevens

Derekh929 said:


> The Evoque has been a run away sales success , and to high exclaim , but I have started to see people switch out of them while prices still hold for know, I have driven the petrol and liked it but very cramped in rear, but I know reliability very patchy take a local new RR sport two gear boxes in 3 months and many others, so I'm supprised before you bought the Evoque you were not get driven away as well with the same reason as the German brands , I think it's more to do with your love of British metal than anything , else but I may be wrong


You are correct. From the age of 10 when I was talking to a neighbour in 1975 who had just collected his new Mini 1275GT, I said there & then when I get old enough to drive I am going to buy a British car built in a British factory by British workers & I allways have done this on EVERY new car I have ever bought.
This is likely to faulter shortly if I buy the new Fiesta ST2.
Yes Evoque not perfect but very nice though oddly enough I have had more trips to the dealers in both Evoque's I have had & the Freelander 2HSE I bought in 2009 than I did with ANY MG or Rover car! :driver: My Rover 25GSi that I bought new in 2006 has only ever seen a Mechanics garage for a service or MOT, never failed any MOT & got it's first minor advisory this year on a bit of play on the n/s lower ball joint which is replaced with only 3 bolts. That said I am likely selling this little car now as I have had an offer from a local enthusiast of an amount that I really can not refuse.


----------



## Melkor

I think lexus problem was they are not exactly keen drivers cars compared to bm, merc and audi


----------



## Derekh929

Melkor said:


> I think lexus problem was they are not exactly keen drivers cars compared to bm, merc and audi


Totally focus on build quality and forget everything else and you get a niche maker that they are dynamics are key even are bang on the money in that area, and I bet the next A4 will be dynamically far better, or the new three will steal more market share IMHO


----------



## Melkor

Yes the new models are starting to shift towards sporty handling and away from comfort


----------



## uruk hai

Like everyone I buy for a number of reasons but the brand is not really at the top of my list of boxes to tick. Purchase, running and maintainence costs are foremost in my mind, closely followed by practicality, safety and resale value. Once the afore mentioned criteria are met I look at a combination of make and model, looks (inside and out) and level of equipment.

Before I bought the Focus I was very close to buying a similar year and spec Golf but I have a mate who knows Focus' inside out who can and probably has already sorted or cured every problem they can suffer from. This and liking the way they drive caused a change of heart, I didn't do it because I thought it was any better or worse than the equivalent Golf it was largely a financial decision and one that for me has made good sense.

Personally I love badge/brand snobbery as it means good cars get over looked which I believe makes them a good buy for those who don't get caught up in the brand image game.


----------



## CoOkIeMoNsTeR

Derekh929 said:


> This is why I start these threads on a rainy day, classic ( you won't be picking up 8x4 sheets with it) so your the guy with the 2x2 6 foot out the front window of a 911 I saw in the B&Q car park:thumb:
> Sounds like me when went to pick up a washing machine with the cooper s , the guy looked at car a scratched his head in it went


Damn, someone saw me :doublesho I knew I should have taken the Pug 



Geordieexile said:


> I'm amazed at what will fit in the Cayman too mate. :thumb:
> The combined size of the 2 'boots' is actually larger than my Clio. However, if I need to cart both kids and the dog round with a stop off at the shops then it won't cut it. I'm fortunate enough to have a practical wagon that I'd hate if it were my only car, but I happen to love as it does all the jobs my porsche won't. Most people I've seen get rid of a Porsche do it because they need some practicality. At least I can't be accused of badge snobbery with a C8 :lol::lol:


Ah, 2 kids + dog. I can see your problem  I only have to worry about the dog, he just lies on the flat rear seats 

Also, I only have 1 boot :doublesho


----------



## SteveyG

Soul boy 68 said:


> I don't think so Derek as fraud also sell their cars as fleet, Germans cars just sell them selves and a friend of mine used to work for a fraud dealer ship and had to work very hard in convincing buyers to buy a fraud. He now works for Audi and he gets customers who come in and simply order their vehicles with out much hard work in trying to convince them to buy one like he had to with a fraud. Speaks volumes really.


Why "fraud"?


----------



## Derekh929

uruk hai said:


> Like everyone I buy for a number of reasons but the brand is not really at the top of my list of boxes to tick. Purchase, running and maintainence costs are foremost in my mind, closely followed by practicality, safety and resale value. Once the afore mentioned criteria are met I look at a combination of make and model, looks (inside and out) and level of equipment.
> 
> Before I bought the Focus I was very close to buying a similar year and spec Golf but I have a mate who knows Focus' inside out who can and probably has already sorted or cured every problem they can suffer from. This and liking the way they drive caused a change of heart, I didn't do it because I thought it was any better or worse than the equivalent Golf it was largely a financial decision and one that for me has made good sense.
> 
> Personally I love badge/brand snobbery as it means good cars get over looked which I believe makes them a good buy for those who don't get caught up in the brand image game.


Two very good points first safety never mentioned yet and the last paragraph spot on and very good point


----------



## herbiedacious

I've recently changed from a 2.0 tdci Mondeo to an E90 BM 320d and must admit the BM is more fun to drive hard but l miss the stuff that came standard on the Ford- rear wiper, cruise control, column mounted radio controls and l know for a fact that when the frost and snow arrive l will definitely miss the quick clear windscreen and front wheel drive. Having said that, l love the BMW.


----------



## SteveyG

James Bagguley said:


> I do wonder how much belief that one brand is better than another arises from good marketing on the part of the companies themselves.


I think it's all down to the structure of the models within the range. I have a Mondeo X Sport and and a 330i and I'd struggle to pick between them which is my favourite. But the TXS is the top of the range Mondeo with the biggest engine and more luxurious interior, alloys, dash etc.

But the majority of the Mondeos on the road are zetec and zetec business edition models which have the cheap plasticy interior, basic dash and radio and low powered engines which generally bring the name down because it is a pretty average car in that guise.

Contrast that with the Beemer where you can spec the car to be pretty much the same in every respect apart from the engine and you can get a luxurious feeling car even if it's slower than a snail.

When we were buying the BMW, the cars with the cloth seats etc just felt cheap and nasty and IMO are actually probably the cars the average badge snob would buy as they just want the image.


----------



## Melkor

Modern fords seem like very good vehicles to me, especially the focus and mondeo
My friend was in the market for a new car and he drew up a short list, when I suggested a focus he looked at me like I had just walked into he's house and crapped on he's carpet .
He said he wouldn't pay anywhere near that kind of money for a ford, the old dagenham dustbin etc , I tried to explain that they are great cars but he didn't even consider it because of the badge and he bought a golf, which he has no end of grief with.


----------



## James Bagguley

There are a lot of people who seem to put down Ford with nothing more than snobbery as a reason.
My dads MK3 Mondeo LX is rather unloved, but i love it, it is what it is, but has served its purpose well.
That and my Fiesta 1.6S that made it to 20 years old cement my respect for the blue oval.


----------



## Derekh929

James Bagguley said:


> There are a lot of people who seem to put down Ford with nothing more than snobbery as a reason.
> My dads MK3 Mondeo LX is rather unloved, but i love it, it is what it is, but has served its purpose well.
> That and my Fiesta 1.6S that made it to 20 years old cement my respect for the blue oval.


Yes it seems the blue oval has lost it's shine I think the focus and c max are very good at what they do


----------



## SteveyG

James Bagguley said:


> There are a lot of people who seem to put down Ford with nothing more than snobbery as a reason.


Most of the Euro models are designed in Germany and UK anyway.


----------



## Kerr

Derekh929 said:


> Lets add a twist witch brands do you think attracts the most snobbery and the jealous remarks , I will open with Porsche for the most jealous remarks


On this site, I think without a doubt BMW get the hardest time. We've got a few people that have a bitter hatred that leads them to make extremely stupid comments.

People blaming BMW for poor accident repairs by a bodyshop and "typical BMW driver" quotes etc.

How many people mention that BMWs are poor in the snow at the height of summer?

Not one other brand has been mentioned as bad in the snow. Only ever BMW when there is plenty of other RWD cars that are worse and there is many FWD with huge tyres that are in the same category too.

The Porsche 911 doesn't get that hard a time. It seems to be a cheap shot at Boxter/Cayman drivers that they could afford a 911. Often by people who couldn't afford a Cayman let alone a 911 themselves.



Derekh929 said:


> I could not possibly comment on that I will leave this for Kerr to comment:thumb:





Geordieexile said:


> I honestly think Audi drivers take the brunt of the jealous remarks.


I don't think Audi drivers get a hard time at all. Yes, I get the blame of it, but my point is my opinion and often very fair.

How many guys on here have asked the simple question, "what Audi should I buy"? Not what car, they aren't buying a car, they are buying into the brand and genuinely think they are better than everything else.

I think Audi drivers bring a bit of it on themselves that they dismiss everything else, where there reason for dismissing everything else is often wrong.

They look good, but many are outclassed for driving by many.

Audi aren't anywhere near as reliable as people think. They often score badly, but many of the other German companies do too.

This site is a bit odd on the car front. People are willing to spend a lot of money on their cars and a lot of money keeping their car in top condition.

It just seems that too many don't have an interest or understanding about driving the thing though.

There isn't what I'd call many petrolheads on this forum.

Image and appearance clearly are the highest factors for too many people.


----------



## RisingPower

Kerr said:


> How many guys on here have asked the simple question, "what Audi should I buy"? Not what car, they aren't buying a car, they are buying into the brand and genuinely think they are better than everything else.
> 
> I think Audi drivers bring a bit of it on themselves that they dismiss everything else, where there reason for dismissing everything else is often wrong.
> 
> Audi aren't anywhere near as reliable as people think. They often score badly, but many of the other German companies do too.
> 
> This site is a bit odd on the car front. People are willing to spend a lot of money on their cars and a lot of money keeping their car in top condition.
> 
> It just seems that too many don't have an interest or understanding about driving the thing though.
> 
> There isn't what I'd call many petrolheads on this forum.
> 
> Image and appearance clearly are the highest factors for too many people.


That or other vags tbh.

I bought the zed because I like rust and bits falling off 

Though, I'm still not entirely sure less bits fell off the m3.

I kinda like the idea of a forester as a daily too


----------



## cbr6fs

Derekh929 said:


> Please don't enter the discussion if easily offended
> 
> First up just seen the thread re premium 4x4 new for under £25k
> 
> 1. Do you buy your car for performace, fuel economy , image , Brand , looks, service costs, drivetrain , handling etc
> 
> 2. Does it bother you watch badge is on the front I liked a Skoda Fabian as second car, and for daughter to learn to drive but this did not go down well, so it was onto seat ibiza.
> 
> 3. What percentage of cars do you think are bought for the badge on premium brands and do you think they are diluting there brand image with clones.


Can honestly say a cars image, looks or brand has never played any part in my car buying history;

The other criteria really depends on what i want the car for.
When i've needed a car for a longggggggg daily commute down the motorway buying something that was comfortable and economical were high on my priority list.

When it came to buying a car for around Athens i wanted something with tough body panels and easy to park.

For my Sunny morning blasts and track work then i wanted something that was fun to drive.

Right now i own a Smart for2 for around Athens.
A MX5 for sunny morning blasts and the track
And a 3.2 V6 A3 for family carrying duties, holidays etc

All cars do a different job and each one was bought for a specific task so the criteria for choosing each was very different.

What it says on the tin (the badge) made absolutely no difference to me, likewise the so called "image" of each car.
To be honest i don't even care about the colour.

About the only criteria i stick to is i'd never buy a new car


----------



## Derekh929

cbr6fs said:


> Can honestly say a cars image, looks or brand has never played any part in my car buying history;
> 
> The other criteria really depends on what i want the car for.
> When i've needed a car for a longggggggg daily commute down the motorway buying something that was comfortable and economical were high on my priority list.
> 
> When it came to buying a car for around Athens i wanted something with tough body panels and easy to park.
> 
> For my Sunny morning blasts and track work then i wanted something that was fun to drive.
> 
> Right now i own a Smart for2 for around Athens.
> A MX5 for sunny morning blasts and the track
> And a 3.2 V6 A3 for family carrying duties, holidays etc
> 
> All cars do a different job and each one was bought for a specific task so the criteria for choosing each was very different.
> 
> What it says on the tin (the badge) made absolutely no difference to me, likewise the so called "image" of each car.
> To be honest i don't even care about the colour.
> 
> About the only criteria i stick to is i'd never buy a new car


Thanks for input and some very sound reasoning , and the first to mention colour not important :thumb:


----------



## CoOkIeMoNsTeR

Oh no, colour is important! Nothing rancid, and never ever white :doublesho

I refuse to drive a car that is the same colour as my toilet


----------



## Geordieexile

Kerr said:


> The Porsche 911 doesn't get that hard a time. It seems to be a cheap shot at Boxter/Cayman drivers that they could afford a 911. Often by people who couldn't afford a Cayman let alone a 911 themselves.


Got to admit, this makes me laugh and can at times be true, but often shows a lack of understanding of the differences between the cars. I drove a couple of 911s before settling on a Cayman; it simply came down to handling. I wanted something for fun and the ability to get round corners quickly, the 911 felt a little bit front end light for me and my driving style for what I wanted. I think that someday I'd like a 911 turbo but until then ...

It's also worth considering that those who splash out on a decent spec 911 are unlikely to lose much in depreciation, especially if they're going to hang on to it, whereas anyone who buys a boxster or cayman is going to lose a fair bit more by percentage.


----------



## Derekh929

CoOkIeMoNsTeR said:


> Oh no, colour is important! Nothing rancid, and never ever white :doublesho
> 
> I refuse to drive a car that is the same colour as my toilet


Totally agree Chocolate Brown only suits an Allegro:lol:


----------



## bidderman1969

im not sure i should comment, as i bought one of these










although i wish i could have got it in white, as it looks a bit better i think


----------



## Blanco92

I thought about this some more.

When I was in the States last year, I rented an Infiniti G37 saloon for a few days. Absolutely cracking car. Lovely to drive, quick (3.7 V6) but without feeling rushed, lovely smooth but sporty ride.

Yet here, Infiniti, despite their best attempts at getting some rep by sponsoring Red Bull F1 cars, still can't get sales even close to BMW, Mercedes and Audi.

I'm not going to slag Audis, my parents have one and I think it's a cracking car also, very solid, reliable, economical and quick for a diesel. But nobody here really knows what an Infiniti is, so they just stick to what everyone else does, and goes down the German route.


----------



## Melkor

The other day I was flicking through whatcar buyers guide and all but one of the Infiniti range had only 1 star, seemed a bit harsh


----------



## Blueberry

I buy cars based primarily on how it looks. I'm not particularly fussed about what marque it is. In fact, it almost certainly would not be VAG as I find them them a little staid / conservative in their design. My husband has owned many VAG cars. He loves them but sadly on the whole, don't grab my attention. There is a perception that German equals reliable but it's not the case. OH has had countless problems with some of his. One BMW he only kept 6 weeks because of relentless problems with it.

I know I will get shot down here but give me French styling flair. I drive a Peugeot RCZ (on my second) and currently my favourite looking new car is the new Renault Clio. I also love Alfa Romeos.

I've owned Vauxhalls, Peugeots, Mini Cooper, VW Polo, Fiat in the 20+ years of motoring. I've not had a car which has proved to be unreliable.


----------



## New Novice

In the past I have had 3 Skodas - All from new.

And I bought them because they did what I wanted in terms of performance, practicality, space, value, and yes quality. Never been a badge snop. I buy what I can afford at the time, and I buy what I need at the time, I do buy the best I can afford within the previous parameters.

NN


----------



## cbr6fs

Derekh929 said:


> Thanks for input and some very sound reasoning , and the first to mention colour not important :thumb:


I do have preferences for a cars colour but as i only ever buy used the state of the car outweighs that.

i.e. i swore i would never ever ever buy another black car, but my A3 was in great condition and at a fair price so these outweighed the fact that it was black.

People buy what ever they want, it's their money their choice.

Have to be honest though and say that folks who try to sum a car depending on it's badge or some generalisation of where the car comes from do strike me as extremely ignorant and lazy.

Car manufacturers like say Mazda have made many models over the years, some are good cars others were absolutely terrible.
It's the exact same thing with Mercedes, BMW, Honda and every other large car manufactorer.
A Prius drives completely different to say a Civic type R, a 7 series BMW drives completely different to a E30 M3.

So lumping all the cars together under a brand name just strikes me as stupid, lazy but more importantly incorrect.

It gets even worse when folks sum up cars by some vague supposed geographical location.
You get this with a VAG and JDM fan boys, always makes me laugh.

I've been in and around the car industry for around 30 years, can't think of many sub £100k cars i've not driven in that time.
It really does not make any difference both reliability and driving character wise what badge is stuck on the outside.

This for older cars, the vast majority of newer mass produced cars are based upon shared platforms, shared engines, gearboxes etc, so the differences are even smaller.

When mates come to me for advice on what cars to buy i tell them to sit and write what they need from a car, what they want and then to do some searching to find out what options are available at the price they want to pay.
We'll then hit the dealers or garages and book as many test drives as we can so they can get a feel for what cars they prefer.

Can't honestly say i've ever had any mate come back to me and complain afterwards and many keep their cars for a long time after.

I have other mates that buy cars simply because they like the looks or the brand, some didn't even bother with a test drive!!!!!!!!!!! 
These mates tend to chop and change cars like my Mrs changes her clothes, but then to also buy and service their cars at dealers so............ :lol:


----------



## James Bagguley

Have to say this thread makes for some great reading, so good on you Derek for thinking up another interesting topic.
Its nice to see the floodgates open for DW members to show what an opinionated, yet humorous and considered bunch we are.

Gush over


----------



## Soul boy 68

andystevens said:


> I bought my Evoque because I liked it a lot & it's as British as one could expect. That said I don't have any more passion for it than my 3 MG or Rover cars I have as well.
> If I were to ever buy a German car then it would likey be an Audi but only a saloon car as they are more traditional in looks, Merc are OK but heard bad stories about some & hate BMW's so wouldn't go there. VW, did look (or rather try to) at a Polo GTi. Both dealers I went in were useless, one hopeless, VW obviously don't want to sell them as no one can get hold of one & one dealer said "Polo GTi huh we don't have one of those no one buys them) then I saw a dirty one in a McDonalds car park which answered my questions - It was boring to look at & any decent kit was way over priced & I really wouldn't describe VW as premium just above average!


Not British owned though, it's owned by an Indian company now.


----------



## Kerr

I wonder why this thread has been rated 1 star? 

Is someone's nose out of joint?


----------



## Derekh929

Blueberry said:


> I buy cars based primarily on how it looks. I'm not particularly fussed about what marque it is. In fact, it almost certainly would not be VAG as I find them them a little staid / conservative in their design. My husband has owned many VAG cars. He loves them but sadly on the whole, don't grab my attention. There is a perception that German equals reliable but it's not the case. OH has had countless problems with some of his. One BMW he only kept 6 weeks because of relentless problems with it.
> 
> I know I will get shot down here but give me French styling flair. I drive a Peugeot RCZ (on my second) and currently my favourite looking new car is the new Renault Clio. I also love Alfa Romeos.
> 
> I've owned Vauxhalls, Peugeots, Mini Cooper, VW Polo, Fiat in the 20+ years of motoring. I've not had a car which has proved to be unreliable.


Have to agree re vag but this also applies to BMW as well , and I think it is Merc IMHO that is trying harder with looks department
Have to admit never loved the French cars , had a 309gti ugly but good engine and fun, also 306d sport I think it was and another all were ok and but after sales on the new 306 was shocking , the car came new with wrong tail pipe and bumper and faults they tried hard not to fix
But the new Renault sports looks great 250rs and DS3 & 4 nice looking motors for sure also like the RCZ better than TT , but I would have the RCZ body on TT platform and drivetrain if I was honest, what about a new company that you can choice your body style from one brand and the floor pan and running gear from another this would be a massive hit for me , I think my next thread will be about this for sure, thanks for input


----------



## Derekh929

bidderman1969 said:


> im not sure i should comment, as i bought one of these
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> although i wish i could have got it in white, as it looks a bit better i think


I depends on our requirements at the time in our life and I bet it does a very good job at what you want it to do at a good price point and that's what matters not what job blogs up the street thinks :thumb:


----------



## Maggi200

I'm currently lusting after something with a Kia badge, so I guess I'm not a snob  I can easily look beyond badges


----------



## alan hanson

when it comes to looking at the next car, it will still be a blue oval or vauxhall etc..... for the budget i have its what i can get for it, i do like audi's but would i want a bog standard one? no toys etc and look like its a company car - no ta

i see bmw's, audis etc..... that look so plain its like someone has gone to a scrap yard bought loads cheap panels put it together but as long as it has 4 rings or the bmw badge on it its ok? i see peeps stare at my car and you can tell that they look down at it, sitting in their bm. A friend had a choice between a ford or vauxhall or a merc certain budget she laughed when i said have a look at them all it was purely down the merc and the badge regardless if the boot was too mall for what they wanted which i warned them about. its nice to have a expensive car and drive around some peeps need this ego boost some dont, for me if you do you have bigger issues (in some cases small issues )

end of the day each to their own but unltimately i drive it and my cash so its dictated purely by me, looks nice, reasonable power, few toys and doesnt cost the earth in parts and service. mondeo titanium x sport top of me list.

the kia ceed gt looks a nice hot hatch


----------



## AudiKosti

Depends what situation you are in really.

If i had the cash I'd go with premium brand because of the power of the car followed by age and mileage. 

If i didn't and needed a cheap run about, I'd go for something that looked like it would last. Not bothered about brand.

I wouldn't buy the better brand to "show off", if its something i like and others don't its fine by me, It's my car at the end of the day! And i can tell you most people i know in Cyprus have bought a car due to its badge at the front. There is even cars with changed badges and they go for that because of the badge!


----------



## Kiashuma

Yes, i'm a badge snob, as i have a Kia and a Hyundai


----------



## alan hanson

AudiKosti said:


> Depends what situation you are in really.
> 
> If i had the cash I'd go with premium brand because of the power of the car followed by age and mileage.
> 
> If i didn't and needed a cheap run about, I'd go for something that looked like it would last. Not bothered about brand.
> 
> I wouldn't buy the better brand to "show off", if its something i like and others don't its fine by me, It's my car at the end of the day! And i can tell you most people i know in Cyprus have bought a car due to its badge at the front. There is even cars with changed badges and they go for that because of the badge!


does badge always mean more power? i know there are exceptions but these are top top end models? rs sport /vxr are top end hot hatches compared to the audi, golfs and seats?


----------



## Geordieexile

alan hanson said:


> does badge always mean more power? i know there are exceptions but these are top top end models? rs sport /vxr are top end hot hatches compared to the audi, golfs and seats?


Power often means nothing anyway. You can have all the BHP in the world but if your car can't put it through the rubber with effective traction and it handles like a bus then a more balanced car with lower power can thrash you every day. I'm one of those who subscribes to the opinion that you can only put so much power through the front wheels. I prefer a car that will allow me to go to the edge and give me feedback about when it's about to let go rather than something that is vastly over powered for a crap chassis and suspension set up that can put you in a hedge without warning. The badge is also irrelevant to this discussion except that when you have a marque that focuses on power *and* performance then the vehicle is _usually_ more matched to the power output and designed for a thoughtful driver rather than a BHP whore :lol:
In my younger years I was always drawn to BHP; as I got older I took more notice of the all round package.


----------



## AudiKosti

alan hanson said:


> *does badge always mean more power?* i know there are exceptions but these are top top end models? rs sport /vxr are top end hot hatches compared to the audi, golfs and seats?


Some people have that in mind.

I like my performance cars (power), doesn't really bother me on badge, i'd still buy a car if it had good power. Seen loads of different cars before i made my decision with the Audi S3 i have.

I made my choice solely on the engine with the Audi, has one of the best engines out to date, that can take a hammering. Having 225bhp out of a 1.8l hatchback is good. With 4WD as-well, and the price of dirt cheap. I have modifications in mind as-well, but now i have a hydraulic valve problem, and because of the badge i am getting overpriced so much over here in Cyprus for it to get fixed.

Don't forget age group, that also plays a factor on why people tend to buy the badge.


----------



## Derekh929

Lots to reply too i will try to reply to all tonight some very good info, thanks


----------



## Derekh929

Kerr said:


> I wonder why this thread has been rated 1 star?
> 
> Is someone's nose out of joint?


I bet is was the guy that has the Choclate Brown Allegro :lol: i knew that comment would go down badly, never mind i will get 5 stars soon or i will have to try another form to see if they realy like to contribute:doublesho


----------



## Porkypig

I have been lucky enough to drive a huge range of cars in my life and own quite a few different ones too. 

Badge snob, not necessarily, there are cars I would hate to own and would never buy, but for e.g I have always had an odd soft spot for a Lada Riva.... 

I worked for Jag LR for 3 years and drove many X Types. MONDEO I hear your scream... Not a bit of it, get in a Mondeo after an x type and you know instantly you are in the cheaper car, may have shared a platform or whatever but worlds apart to be in and drive and look at. Early S Type, bag of cr4p, ass kicked for quality and reliability and younger badge image by many others. Drove a few early C Class and they shared the instrument binnacle and centre stuff with the Merc vans.... not great regardless of the badge. Also worked for Honda, Subaru, Isuzu and Aston Martin and all have stories but Subaru interiors are something to behold on the earlier cars, but the badge had a following so.....

I owned a VW Bora 1.9 TDI that I did 139k in 2 years, unbreakable and brilliant if a little dull but what a workhorse. I went to swap it in for a low mile Seat FR Leon and after driving it couldn't get away quick enough. The quality of the feel, the interior, the door shut, the plastics etc was a different level, the badge didn't tell me that, the experience did. I swapped it eventually for an E90 320d m sport, worst car I have ever had for things going wrong, but it felt excellent to drive and live with (when it wasn't being 'looked into'). 14 mths and 60k later I upped it to a 530d Msport. Amazing car and rode in a 100k example last week and it felt as good now as it did in 07.

We recently decided we wanted to add a 4x4 to the family, a neighbours daughter turned up in a Brand new KIA Sorrento, a gold one too, it looked quite groovy we thought, then we sat in it and found out it cost £34k!!! and on finance due to its residual its rentals were ridiculously high. VW toureg was of interest till we looked at economy and well, like others here ended up in a brand new F31 320d Msport Xdrive Touring. Wife drives it daily now and the Boxster is in the garage resting for the winter mths. Now that sounds like badge snobbery but it is just choices made from experience.

By the way, with out any shame my daily drive is a 2000 YM Honda Civic Aerodeck 1.8 VTI, 121K on the clock, worth less than a grand, never goes wrong, is practically invisible, and carries all my tools etc that I need to work. (which I should really be doing now).

That said, looking out the window and getting in the BM or the Porker is a far nicer experience...


----------



## Derekh929

Blanco92 said:


> I thought about this some more.
> 
> When I was in the States last year, I rented an Infiniti G37 saloon for a few days. Absolutely cracking car. Lovely to drive, quick (3.7 V6) but without feeling rushed, lovely smooth but sporty ride.
> 
> Yet here, Infiniti, despite their best attempts at getting some rep by sponsoring Red Bull F1 cars, still can't get sales even close to BMW, Mercedes and Audi.
> 
> I'm not going to slag Audis, my parents have one and I think it's a cracking car also, very solid, reliable, economical and quick for a diesel. But nobody here really knows what an Infiniti is, so they just stick to what everyone else does, and goes down the German route.


That is a very good point but dynamics seem important in the uk even more so the europe and offcourse the american dont bother so much about dymnamics more is the cup holder big enough for the starbucks.
Infiniti have got there marketing wrong a Seb Vettel SUV What wrong just wrong i think people see you as a black sheep if you go lexus or infinity and that must be a problem for any marketing manager


----------



## Derekh929

Geordieexile said:


> Power often means nothing anyway. You can have all the BHP in the world but if your car can't put it through the rubber with effective traction and it handles like a bus then a more balanced car with lower power can thrash you every day. I'm one of those who subscribes to the opinion that you can only put so much power through the front wheels. I prefer a car that will allow me to go to the edge and give me feedback about when it's about to let go rather than something that is vastly over powered for a crap chassis and suspension set up that can put you in a hedge without warning. The badge is also irrelevant to this discussion except that when you have a marque that focuses on power *and* performance then the vehicle is _usually_ more matched to the power output and designed for a thoughtful driver rather than a BHP whore :lol:
> In my younger years I was always drawn to BHP; as I got older I took more notice of the all round package.


Wow someone with my thinking for sure 110% on the money with that statement, i think the current crop of front drivers have taken it to the max no more without RWD or AWD example the RS3 Audi got it wrong wrong price , just look at the bargins out there and poor new buyers, even with AWD it just does not work, i think a fine balanced car needs to have great feed back through the wheel so you are aware as and when your front end is going to let go and i mean that is not something you want to happen believe you me i can tell you its scary. Also i link a car that after you brake into the corner hit appex and accelerate hard the car hankers down with good stability and tracking that is key to delivery the torque and power, as for my moderen desiels the only main issue with the heavy F31 is the weight of the big 330d engine in the front that is why the 328i is a better steer as it is more pointy to be able to turn the front in quicker instead of pushing it out. I specced the Varaible Sport steering as it added some of the feel i loved when i had my e30 BM in the 80's you felt evermovement of the front end and also the right rear that let go on many occassions , but was so easy to correct. the secret to any new car has to be lower weight but that costs a fortune untill the price of a carbon tub can be on a mainstream production line we have a long weight.
I think ford dynamicly are very good apart from the RS Focus that is


----------



## Kriminal

What kind of confuses me with badge snobbery is that it's the person behind the wheel that surely matters.

Put it this way : when I started driving, it was Ford. Then went to Vauxhall. Then Rover. Then Fiat. Then VW. Then Audi. Then BMW.

My point is, Kerr put across earlier about people being prejudgemental towards the car that's being driven, and not the driver; for example, since I've owned a BMW I've witnessed more reluctance from other road-users to let me pull in to traffic flows....and that's just one example.

At the end of the day, this BMW driver is exactly the same person as I was when I was driving the Fords, Vauxhall, Rovers, Fiat, VW, and Audis.

Do I feel that I'm any better than the person driving the Ford (as pure example) ?.....not at all. It's the driver that matters


----------



## Derekh929

Kriminal said:


> What kind of confuses me with badge snobbery is that it's the person behind the wheel that surely matters.
> 
> Put it this way : when I started driving, it was Ford. Then went to Vauxhall. Then Rover. Then Fiat. Then VW. Then Audi. Then BMW.
> 
> My point is, Kerr put across earlier about people being prejudgemental towards the car that's being driven, and not the driver; for example, since I've owned a BMW I've witnessed more reluctance from other road-users to let me pull in to traffic flows....and that's just one example.
> 
> At the end of the day, this BMW driver is exactly the same person as I was when I was driving the Fords, Vauxhall, Rovers, Fiat, VW, and Audis.
> 
> Do I feel better that I'm any better than the person driving the Ford (as pure example) ?.....not at all. It's the driver that matters


And you would think so :lol: But that is not the case you buy a BMW my friend you run the risk of this happening, but it's safer than rhe Audi route as a survey showed that Audi drivers are more likely to cheat on there partners terrible

At the end of the day, this BMW driver is exactly the same person as I was when I was driving the Fords, Vauxhall, Rovers, Fiat, VW, and Audis.


----------



## CoOkIeMoNsTeR

Derekh929 said:


> I bet is was the guy that has the Choclate Brown Allegro :lol: i knew that comment would go down badly, never mind i will get 5 stars soon or i will have to try another form to see if they realy like to contribute:doublesho


Or people who's number one priority is to buy a car that matches their bathroom suite :lol:

Oops, I'll give you 5 stars to make up for it :thumb:


----------



## Rob_Car

I've been a complete tart in my 40 odd years of car ownership. After a motley collection of British stuff I had a long affair with Citroens and owned a couple of BXs and later a couple of XMs which I absolutely loved. Also had a couple of Jags, a Beemer and a Merc. Lately it's been mostly Honda Jazzs and a selection of 4X4s, Nissan Patrol, Landcruiser Amazon, Honda CRV, Kia Sorento and currently a Hyundai Santa Fe. The latter is the best of the bunch so far. Also have a Volvo C70 which I'm really into. So, badge snob? Probably not. What do I aspire to? Bentley Continental V8 and Nissan GT-R. Unlikely to ever buy either! Might go for the next Volvo Coupe if they ever build it. Otherwise, a Merc E coupe.


----------



## johanr77

Derekh929 said:


> Please don't enter the discussion if easily offended
> 
> First up just seen the thread re premium 4x4 new for under £25k
> 
> 1. Do you buy your car for performace, fuel economy , image , Brand , looks, service costs, drivetrain , handling etc
> 
> 2. Does it bother you watch badge is on the front I liked a Skoda Fabian as second car, and for daughter to learn to drive but this did not go down well, so it was onto seat ibiza.
> 
> 3. What percentage of cars do you think are bought for the badge on premium brands and do you think they are diluting there brand image with clones.


1. Bought my car because of the mix of performance and economy suited the type of mileage I do. Secondly came how it looked, ruled out a few other alternatives because I didn't like how they looked on the outside and in some cases inside.

2. Yes and no, it doesn't bother me if people judge me based on what I drive but at the same time I don't want to drive a car that doesn't do it for me just because someone I don't know thinks I've been a snob for not buying another marque.

3. I think a large percentage of supposed premium brand cars are bought because they suggest a certain level of status. My previous employers listed cars and makes by your job title, a site based engineer got his choice of ford & vauxhall, a middle manager got offered a VW, a senior manager offered low trim level Jags, Audis and Mercs and directors were offered top spec Beemers, Audis and Mercs. The bottom two tiers were effectively getting cars from exactly the same segment but rocking up on site in a Ford or Vauxhall showed to your colleagues you were on the bottom pay grade. Load of old crap but thats how some people perceive certain brands or models are better than others.


----------



## Derekh929

alan hanson said:


> when it comes to looking at the next car, it will still be a blue oval or vauxhall etc..... for the budget i have its what i can get for it, i do like audi's but would i want a bog standard one? no toys etc and look like its a company car - no ta
> 
> i see bmw's, audis etc..... that look so plain its like someone has gone to a scrap yard bought loads cheap panels put it together but as long as it has 4 rings or the bmw badge on it its ok? i see peeps stare at my car and you can tell that they look down at it, sitting in their bm. A friend had a choice between a ford or vauxhall or a merc certain budget she laughed when i said have a look at them all it was purely down the merc and the badge regardless if the boot was too mall for what they wanted which i warned them about. its nice to have a expensive car and drive around some peeps need this ego boost some dont, for me if you do you have bigger issues (in some cases small issues )
> 
> end of the day each to their own but unltimately i drive it and my cash so its dictated purely by me, looks nice, reasonable power, few toys and doesnt cost the earth in parts and service. mondeo titanium x sport top of me list.
> 
> the kia ceed gt looks a nice hot hatch


thanks for you info, yes alot of the basic german stuff look dull as dish water , have to agree with that that and you are right re basic german car or specced up other options, and yes Kia seem to be getting better press as well , only had the one ford a MK1 Capri when i was 15 as project to sell


----------



## -Kev-

got my car because i like it, stuff what anyone thinks of it


----------



## Derekh929

-Kev- said:


> got my car because i like it, stuff what anyone thinks of it


That's the way to be, know having a nephew that is desperate to own a Type R do you think they get the wrong attention with people thinking you are a back to front basebal wearing yob? as my Nephews mum thinks they attract the wrong attention and also image, im undecieded on them i have to say i like the white import Coupe alot though is it the Integra, what's your experience on this Kev?


----------



## Derekh929

New Novice said:


> In the past I have had 3 Skodas - All from new.
> 
> And I bought them because they did what I wanted in terms of performance, practicality, space, value, and yes quality. Never been a badge snop. I buy what I can afford at the time, and I buy what I need at the time, I do buy the best I can afford within the previous parameters.
> 
> NN


And how does your current car compare to your 3 Skodas , having seen the motor in question i t looked great , but what do you think is does that the other can't?


----------



## Shiny

Derekh929 said:


> That's the way to be, know having a nephew that is desperate to own a Type R do you think they get the wrong attention with people thinking you are a back to front basebal wearing yob? as my Nephews mum thinks they attract the wrong attention and also image, im undecieded on them i have to say i like the white import Coupe alot though is it the Integra, what's your experience on this Kev?


I think that depends on what he does to the car styling wise. I have an Accord Type R and it is a tad noisy and i sometimes wonder about the impression it gives. But it looks far from Chavvy and often gets admiring remarks from people of all ages.

One of my neighbours (in his fifties) was talking to me recently about it and i sheepishly said i may consider changing the exhaust to quieten it a bit to which he replied "don't you dare, it sounds great" which came as a bit of surprise.

I don't think i'm a badge snob, but my first car was a Honda and i've owned Hondas for most of my driving life. The other marques of cars i have owned just didn't warm my soul like the Hondas have.


----------



## Peter D

Just replaced my wife's Ford C-Max with an Hyundai ix35. I must admit she loves it and I am impressed with the quality. It was the first time buying a car that we'd given a thought to them (and Kia), but the quality between marques is narrowing.
I think as most of us real enthusiasts, we try and look past the badge to the real merits of the car beneath.
Peter


----------



## Kiashuma

Peter D said:


> Just replaced my wife's Ford C-Max with an Hyundai ix35. I must admit she loves it and I am impressed with the quality. It was the first time buying a car that we'd given a thought to them (and Kia), but the quality between marques is narrowing.
> I think as most of us real enthusiasts, we try and look past the badge to the real merits of the car beneath.
> Peter


100 hp Panda :argie: love these :thumb:


----------



## RisingPower

AudiKosti said:


> Depends what situation you are in really.
> 
> If i had the cash I'd go with premium brand because of the power of the car followed by age and mileage.
> 
> If i didn't and needed a cheap run about, I'd go for something that looked like it would last. Not bothered about brand.
> 
> I wouldn't buy the better brand to "show off", if its something i like and others don't its fine by me, It's my car at the end of the day! And i can tell you most people i know in Cyprus have bought a car due to its badge at the front. There is even cars with changed badges and they go for that because of the badge!


Bit random, ford gt, corvette, mustang, monaro, srt8, nobles, ultima, lotus, gtr, nsx etc etc.


----------



## Derekh929

James Bagguley said:


> Have to say this thread makes for some great reading, so good on you Derek for thinking up another interesting topic.
> Its nice to see the floodgates open for DW members to show what an opinionated, yet humorous and considered bunch we are.
> 
> Gush over


Thanks James nice to know my contribution to the site is welcome , know would you like cash or cheque:lol:


----------



## Derekh929

Kiashuma said:


> Yes, i'm a badge snob, as i have a Kia and a Hyundai


Wise man they are building some good cars know:thumb:


----------



## Derekh929

Peter D said:


> Just replaced my wife's Ford C-Max with an Hyundai ix35. I must admit she loves it and I am impressed with the quality. It was the first time buying a car that we'd given a thought to them (and Kia), but the quality between marques is narrowing.
> I think as most of us real enthusiasts, we try and look past the badge to the real merits of the car beneath.
> Peter


Thanks Peter Hyundai ix35 seen a few the Koreans are starting to produce some good stuf of late


----------



## Derekh929

Porkypig said:


> I have been lucky enough to drive a huge range of cars in my life and own quite a few different ones too.
> 
> Badge snob, not necessarily, there are cars I would hate to own and would never buy, but for e.g I have always had an odd soft spot for a Lada Riva....
> 
> I worked for Jag LR for 3 years and drove many X Types. MONDEO I hear your scream... Not a bit of it, get in a Mondeo after an x type and you know instantly you are in the cheaper car, may have shared a platform or whatever but worlds apart to be in and drive and look at. Early S Type, bag of cr4p, ass kicked for quality and reliability and younger badge image by many others. Drove a few early C Class and they shared the instrument binnacle and centre stuff with the Merc vans.... not great regardless of the badge. Also worked for Honda, Subaru, Isuzu and Aston Martin and all have stories but Subaru interiors are something to behold on the earlier cars, but the badge had a following so.....
> 
> I owned a VW Bora 1.9 TDI that I did 139k in 2 years, unbreakable and brilliant if a little dull but what a workhorse. I went to swap it in for a low mile Seat FR Leon and after driving it couldn't get away quick enough. The quality of the feel, the interior, the door shut, the plastics etc was a different level, the badge didn't tell me that, the experience did. I swapped it eventually for an E90 320d m sport, worst car I have ever had for things going wrong, but it felt excellent to drive and live with (when it wasn't being 'looked into'). 14 mths and 60k later I upped it to a 530d Msport. Amazing car and rode in a 100k example last week and it felt as good now as it did in 07.
> 
> We recently decided we wanted to add a 4x4 to the family, a neighbours daughter turned up in a Brand new KIA Sorrento, a gold one too, it looked quite groovy we thought, then we sat in it and found out it cost £34k!!! and on finance due to its residual its rentals were ridiculously high. VW toureg was of interest till we looked at economy and well, like others here ended up in a brand new F31 320d Msport Xdrive Touring. Wife drives it daily now and the Boxster is in the garage resting for the winter mths. Now that sounds like badge snobbery but it is just choices made from experience.
> 
> By the way, with out any shame my daily drive is a 2000 YM Honda Civic Aerodeck 1.8 VTI, 121K on the clock, worth less than a grand, never goes wrong, is practically invisible, and carries all my tools etc that I need to work. (which I should really be doing now).
> 
> That said, looking out the window and getting in the BM or the Porker is a far nicer experience...


Thanks , for input good choose of motors f31 and boxter and a reliable jap which one do you rate the best , I love my F31 330d m sport


----------



## Rainbow

I am sorry for the off topic, but this "badge snobbery" has reached ridiculous heights in the detailing products market too. everyday I tend to see people that are attracted by fancy labels, ads and misleading reviews right after the application of certain product.


----------



## Kerr

Rainbow said:


> I am sorry for the off topic, but this "badge snobbery" has reached ridiculous heights in the detailing products market too. everyday I tend to see people that are attracted by fancy labels, ads and misleading reviews right after the application of certain product.


I don't think anyone can argue with that opinion.

I'm amazed by how many people on here are taken in with so simple things and are willing to shell out small fortunes buying them.


----------



## Derekh929

Rainbow said:


> I am sorry for the off topic, but this "badge snobbery" has reached ridiculous heights in the detailing products market too. everyday I tend to see people that are attracted by fancy labels, ads and misleading reviews right after the application of certain product.


Wow that's some statement for sure but very true but let's save that argument for another thread as can and worms come to mind but I do agree, with the current deluge of positive reviews on certain products. :thumb:


----------



## Derekh929

Ok on topic please


----------



## Derekh929

Shiny said:


> I think that depends on what he does to the car styling wise. I have an Accord Type R and it is a tad noisy and i sometimes wonder about the impression it gives. But it looks far from Chavvy and often gets admiring remarks from people of all ages.
> 
> One of my neighbours (in his fifties) was talking to me recently about it and i sheepishly said i may consider changing the exhaust to quieten it a bit to which he replied "don't you dare, it sounds great" which came as a bit of surprise.
> 
> I don't think i'm a badge snob, but my first car was a Honda and i've owned Hondas for most of my driving life. The other marques of cars i have owned just didn't warm my soul like the Hondas have.


Thanks that's cleared that up for me good explanation :thumb:


----------



## Derekh929

CoOkIeMoNsTeR said:


> Or people who's number one priority is to buy a car that matches their bathroom suite :lol:
> 
> Oops, I'll give you 5 stars to make up for it :thumb:


5 stars yippee :thumb:


----------



## andystevens

Soul boy 68 said:


> Not British owned though, it's owned by an Indian company now.


Agreed but at least still British at heart & employing many of us which can only be good for the Country, that said we don't own anything now. If there was ever another war we would be screwed!


----------



## Porkypig

Derekh929 said:


> Thanks , for input good choose of motors f31 and boxter and a reliable jap which one do you rate the best , I love my F31 330d m sport


Hi Dude

I like them each for different reasons. The Honda is as I say a work horse, not the most economical workhorse fuel wise but it doesn't do astro miles and is looked after and always shocks people when they find out it is 13 years old and 121k on the clock. Simple, easy to drive and live with, and you can leave it anywhere and be pretty sure it will be there and just as you left it on your return. Interior shows its age, it has go a few broken bits from use and some of the plastics are down right sh1t, but generally it has faired well.

The Boxster is a 3.2 S and a blast, it can carry more than you might think too. We take it to Burgundy every year and it takes the 2 of us, all our luggage for a week and some 30+ bottles of wine for the return while delivering 35 mpg average on the trip and giving roof down motoring in the hot summer sun. Couldn't imagine selling it. It is a 2001 ym 87k on the clock and interior only looks 10k old, nothing has ever fallen off it, and when clean which it almost always is, only trained eyes spot the age of the car as it is on a private plate.

The BM though is a tour de force. It is a 4x4 estate with toys aplenty, 8 speed auto, 19"'s, so much media gubbins the manual is like a directory. I haven't spent much time in it yet as it is only 6 weeks old but when I do get the choice as the weather has got worse, it wins hands down.

Sun out though and Boxster all the way. :thumb:


----------



## Derekh929

Porkypig said:


> Hi Dude
> 
> I like them each for different reasons. The Honda is as I say a work horse, not the most economical workhorse fuel wise but it doesn't do astro miles and is looked after and always shocks people when they find out it is 13 years old and 121k on the clock. Simple, easy to drive and live with, and you can leave it anywhere and be pretty sure it will be there and just as you left it on your return. Interior shows its age, it has go a few broken bits from use and some of the plastics are down right sh1t, but generally it has faired well.
> 
> The Boxster is a 3.2 S and a blast, it can carry more than you might think too. We take it to Burgundy every year and it takes the 2 of us, all our luggage for a week and some 30+ bottles of wine for the return while delivering 35 mpg average on the trip and giving roof down motoring in the hot summer sun. Couldn't imagine selling it. It is a 2001 ym 87k on the clock and interior only looks 10k old, nothing has ever fallen off it, and when clean which it almost always is, only trained eyes spot the age of the car as it is on a private plate.
> 
> The BM though is a tour de force. It is a 4x4 estate with toys aplenty, 8 speed auto, 19"'s, so much media gubbins the manual is like a directory. I haven't spent much time in it yet as it is only 6 weeks old but when I do get the choice as the weather has got worse, it wins hands down.
> 
> Sun out though and Boxster all the way. :thumb:


Seems totally logical to me and the boxter idea has got me thinking current 2nd car r56 cooper s love it , the gear box on the beepers are fantastic and even top gear rate the F31 very highly


----------



## New Novice

Derekh929 said:


> And how does your current car compare to your 3 Skodas , having seen the motor in question i t looked great , but what do you think is does that the other can't?


If Skoda did the VRS in 4x4 with slighty more BHP - I would have bought one, no problem. I only run one car so it needs to (try) and be a jack of all trades. So it has to be practical and able swallow reasonable amounts of luggage, as fun to drive as possible, and to run in all weathers (snow/ice).
I did push the boat out a bit with the current car I admit, and yes it does " go a bit" more than the Skodas, and with sports diff etc. it does handle better when pushed, but I would have a Skoda any time - just ask anyone who has driven a VRS.

NN


----------



## Derekh929

New Novice said:


> If Skoda did the VRS in 4x4 with slighty more BHP - I would have bought one, no problem. I only run one car so it needs to (try) and be a jack of all trades. So it has to be practical and able swallow reasonable amounts of luggage, as fun to drive as possible, and to run in all weathers (snow/ice).
> I did push the boat out a bit with the current car I admit, and yes it does " go a bit" more than the Skodas, and with sports diff etc. it does handle better when pushed, but I would have a Skoda any time - just ask anyone who has driven a VRS.
> 
> NN


thanks makes perfect sense to me , i think i may have to have a test drive of the VRS some day sounds intresting:thumb:


----------



## Porkypig

Derekh929 said:


> Seems totally logical to me and the boxter idea has got me thinking current 2nd car r56 cooper s love it , the gear box on the beepers are fantastic and even top gear rate the F31 very highly


Must admit, I would have preferred the 330d but the budget with the xdrive and other kit meant that 320 made more sense. I hade an E60 530D Msport not long back and that engine was truly immense. Only had the 6 speed auto box though and yes this new 8 speed sport auto is brilliant.  Can't fault the Boxster. :thumb:


----------



## Derekh929

cbr6fs said:


> I do have preferences for a cars colour but as i only ever buy used the state of the car outweighs that.
> 
> i.e. i swore i would never ever ever buy another black car, but my A3 was in great condition and at a fair price so these outweighed the fact that it was black.
> 
> People buy what ever they want, it's their money their choice.
> 
> Have to be honest though and say that folks who try to sum a car depending on it's badge or some generalisation of where the car comes from do strike me as extremely ignorant and lazy.
> 
> Car manufacturers like say Mazda have made many models over the years, some are good cars others were absolutely terrible.
> It's the exact same thing with Mercedes, BMW, Honda and every other large car manufactorer.
> A Prius drives completely different to say a Civic type R, a 7 series BMW drives completely different to a E30 M3.
> 
> So lumping all the cars together under a brand name just strikes me as stupid, lazy but more importantly incorrect.
> 
> It gets even worse when folks sum up cars by some vague supposed geographical location.
> You get this with a VAG and JDM fan boys, always makes me laugh.
> 
> I've been in and around the car industry for around 30 years, can't think of many sub £100k cars i've not driven in that time.
> It really does not make any difference both reliability and driving character wise what badge is stuck on the outside.
> 
> This for older cars, the vast majority of newer mass produced cars are based upon shared platforms, shared engines, gearboxes etc, so the differences are even smaller.
> 
> When mates come to me for advice on what cars to buy i tell them to sit and write what they need from a car, what they want and then to do some searching to find out what options are available at the price they want to pay.
> We'll then hit the dealers or garages and book as many test drives as we can so they can get a feel for what cars they prefer.
> 
> Can't honestly say i've ever had any mate come back to me and complain afterwards and many keep their cars for a long time after.
> 
> I have other mates that buy cars simply because they like the looks or the brand, some didn't even bother with a test drive!!!!!!!!!!!
> These mates tend to chop and change cars like my Mrs changes her clothes, but then to also buy and service their cars at dealers so............ :lol:


Some very good points and you need to educate your mates test drive is essential imho and also a test drive with differet road surfaces and a trip home to try in the garage as well seems sometimes people for get to try the garage and end up changing very soon , i take months to decied pec test drive different cars with different extra's to get the feel for what i want and what is a waste for me, to talor to my requirements as keep my cars for a few years to save on the heavy depreciation :thumb:


----------



## Alex_225

I personally have pretty much snobbery towards particular badges, if I like a car then I like it. 

Being a Renault fan I've always received a lot of negativity from various people due to their dislike of French cars. Personally I love the RenaultSport range as they sum up what I look for in a car and that's fun.

Also you may recall we recently purchased a Dacia Duster, absolutely fantastic car and everything you could want for the money. 

Personally I couldn't give a sh!t about the badge, I want a car that I look at and think, 'I wanna have a go in that'.


----------



## Kiashuma

Derekh929 said:


> Wise man they are building some good cars know:thumb:


Thanks, my Kia is 2001 so do you still stand by your comment :lol:

I like it, Mazda running gear and engine so not all bad. As Clarkson once said the dash does look like a melted action man


----------



## Derekh929

Alex_225 said:


> I personally have pretty much snobbery towards particular badges, if I like a car then I like it.
> 
> Being a Renault fan I've always received a lot of negativity from various people due to their dislike of French cars. Personally I love the RenaultSport range as they sum up what I look for in a car and that's fun.
> 
> Also you may recall we recently purchased a Dacia Duster, absolutely fantastic car and everything you could want for the money.
> 
> Personally I couldn't give a sh!t about the badge, I want a car that I look at and think, 'I wanna have a go in that'.


Know this is where it gets funny I love Renault sport models and what they can do , but just never loved the French cars I owned did not keep them long, Dacia duster seems to offer very good value, thanks for input


----------



## Derekh929

Kiashuma said:


> Thanks, my Kia is 2001 so do you still stand by your comment :lol:
> 
> I like it, Mazda running gear and engine so not all bad. As Clarkson once said the dash does look like a melted action man


Errrrr cough possibly I need to consult with my computer


----------



## Delboy_Trotter

For my daily its down to value for money.

My current is a 1.6 TDCI Mk2 Ford Focus - when i bought it i wanted to downsize from my Mk1 Focus Estate (1.8 TDdI).

I wasn't bothered so much by the badge - the only badge i dont like is Vauxhall - i drive them all the time as hire cars and i just don't like them end off.

My current daily was based on a few simple things - for what i paid it was 1/2 the mileage of the equivalent VAG or so called 'premium' brand, it was diesel, comfortable and practical - i didn't see buying a 100k plus diesel (which there is nothing wrong with) when i could have a sub 50k motor, just to gain a 'premium' badge and for the same money.

The Focus was 1/2 the age of the 'premium' motors as well, 5 years vs the 10 years of the 'premium' brands - also more importantly for me i could by the car outright and owe nothing on it, rather than financing a 'premum' motor to get the right badge - everything round here is VW, Audi or BMW, so i get dirty looks for driving a Ford, but for me i can be smug in the fact i own mine.

I should add by 'premium' i mean VW, Audi, BMW and Merc - cars that have an added badge tax and mean as per my own car 6k, 2 years ago bought a lot of Ford! the same amount could have bought me a VW or the like, but the mileage would have been over 100k and been the same age or older than i was moving on from, which i couldn't pay that much money for the same as what i had.

My fun wagon however that goes out the window - its whatever i want, and currently that's a 1997 1.9td VW T4, with 130k miles, and i paid under 3k for it which was cheap for what it is.

So all in all for my daily its value for money - that means a Ford for me, but so what, i like it.

Would I buy a 'premium' brand - i would if I could achieve the value for money I would buy a VW or Audi, more probably a Skoda, but until i can achive that ill stick with my so called 'lesser' motors


----------



## Derekh929

Delboy_Trotter said:


> For my daily its down to value for money.
> 
> My current is a 1.6 TDCI Mk2 Ford Focus - when i bought it i wanted to downsize from my Mk1 Focus Estate (1.8 TDdI).
> 
> I wasn't bothered so much by the badge - the only badge i dont like is Vauxhall - i drive them all the time as hire cars and i just don't like them end off.
> 
> My current daily was based on a few simple things - for what i paid it was 1/2 the mileage of the equivalent VAG or so called 'premium' brand, it was diesel, comfortable and practical - i didn't see buying a 100k plus diesel (which there is nothing wrong with) when i could have a sub 50k motor, just to gain a 'premium' badge and for the same money.
> 
> The Focus was 1/2 the age of the 'premium' motors as well, 5 years vs the 10 years of the 'premium' brands - also more importantly for me i could by the car outright and owe nothing on it, rather than financing a 'premum' motor to get the right badge - everything round here is VW, Audi or BMW, so i get dirty looks for driving a Ford, but for me i can be smug in the fact i own mine.
> 
> I should add by 'premium' i mean VW, Audi, BMW and Merc - cars that have an added badge tax and mean as per my own car 6k, 2 years ago bought a lot of Ford! the same amount could have bought me a VW or the like, but the mileage would have been over 100k and been the same age or older than i was moving on from, which i couldn't pay that much money for the same as what i had.
> 
> My fun wagon however that goes out the window - its whatever i want, and currently that's a 1997 1.9td VW T4, with 130k miles, and i paid under 3k for it which was cheap for what it is.
> 
> So all in all for my daily its value for money - that means a Ford for me, but so what, i like it.
> 
> Would I buy a 'premium' brand - i would if I could achieve the value for money I would buy a VW or Audi, more probably a Skoda, but until i can achive that ill stick with my so called 'lesser' motors


Thanks, I think the focus is a very under rated car as dynamically very good and I would not say it is a lesser car.
I think Skoda is a very good brand with very loyal repeat money savy customers getting best bang for buck in the premium sector without the premium price tag but the prices are creeping up


----------



## James Bagguley

Derekh929 said:


> Thanks James nice to know my contribution to the site is welcome , know would you like cash or cheque:lol:


:lol:  Excuse the late reply to that one, a tenner was it?! :lol:
I want Kev to check back in and give his opinion on your Type R question, i am seriously thinking of saving for an FN2 version.

My take on that subject is, the 8th gen FN2 (Kevs model) is more civilised and better specced than the previous EP3 version.
Couple that with the facts that Clarkson was rude about the 8th gen CTR, and EP3's can be had fairly cheap, i reckon most of the yobbos will plump for the 7th gen model (thats not to say they are driven exclusively by idiots!)

So in essence, there is even snobbery within the Type R brand itself, many EP3 owners regarding the later model as compromised and soft, oddly many said that about the EP3 when it was launched, strange eh?

I respect them all for what they are, but nothing wrong with a bit of refinement IMO.


----------



## Derekh929

James Bagguley said:


> :lol:  Excuse the late reply to that one, a tenner was it?! :lol:
> I want Kev to check back in and give his opinion on your Type R question, i am seriously thinking of saving for an FN2 version.
> 
> My take on that subject is, the 8th gen FN2 (Kevs model) is more civilised and better specced than the previous EP3 version.
> Couple that with the facts that Clarkson was rude about the 8th gen CTR, and EP3's can be had fairly cheap, i reckon most of the yobbos will plump for the 7th gen model (thats not to say they are driven exclusively by idiots!)
> 
> So in essence, there is even snobbery within the Type R brand itself, many EP3 owners regarding the later model as compromised and soft, oddly many said that about the EP3 when it was launched, strange eh?
> 
> I respect them all for what they are, but nothing wrong with a bit of refinement IMO.


Thanks James that is clearer on the type r front and yes Kev's feed back as sensible owner he seems to see if people try to harass him
So the new model is to soft that's interesting arain't all cars going that way to reduce insurance groups to have bigger audiance


----------



## James Bagguley

I think you are right, i suppose it makes sense to cater the needs of as many potential buyers as possible.

As for the FN2 being soft, by all accounts that is largely a misconception brought about by its gadgets and curlicues, people seemed to think Honda compromised the "R" ethos to gain a wider audience.

The thing i find appealing about their cars is, they certainly arent one of these shared platform dress ups, there is a certain individual character to their design and engineering perspectives.
I dont think that makes me a snob as such, as i do respect and appreciate many of the creations other companies produce, from day to day moon milers, to the tarmac shredders! :devil:


----------



## O`Neil

I`m certainly a badge snob and always struggle when looking to change cars as most of what`s out there doesn`t appeal to me.

I`d consider buying a new Ford (just) but wouldn`t buy a used Ford of the modern era. 
I`d never go near anything like a Kia, Hyundai etc.
I`ve owned Japanese cars before but wouldn`t look twice at Honda, Nissan, Mazda or Toyota, the name just puts me off to start with.
And a Vauxhall, never in a million years, I`d rather walk.
I`d consider a Landrover if needs be but never a Range Rover.
I`d struggle to buy something French.
Anything American is out too.
Even if I had the money I`d never buy a Ferrari.

So I`m usually left with something that originates from Germany


----------



## Derekh929

O`Neil said:


> I`m certainly a badge snob and always struggle when looking to change cars as most of what`s out there doesn`t appeal to me.
> 
> I`d consider buying a new Ford (just) but wouldn`t buy a used Ford of the modern era.
> I`d never go near anything like a Kia, Hyundai etc.
> I`ve owned Japanese cars before but wouldn`t look twice at Honda, Nissan, Mazda or Toyota, the name just puts me off to start with.
> And a Vauxhall, never in a million years, I`d rather walk.
> I`d consider a Landrover if needs be but never a Range Rover.
> I`d struggle to buy something French.
> Anything American is out too.
> Even if I had the money I`d never buy a Ferrari.
> 
> So I`m usually left with something that originates from Germany


 so the big question is what do you drive and thanks for your honesty i bet a few would have liked to reply like you have top marks
So lets get this straight you won't want a Nissian GTR? or Toyota GT86 two fantastic cars and best in class imho?
with Vauxhall is this due to past problems or precieved poor build?

So old school defender at the ready?
Can understand the american thing , but a mustang GT500 etc?
French are starting to build some nice cars Renault Sport models? RCZ m DS3 & DS4 , is it build quality and after sales that scare you from these?

Thanks for your input look forward to your reply, tbo i have gone to the extremes on the above


----------



## nichol4s

surely its not snobbery its called having a choice,

so if you had lets say a budget of 10k what would you buy Derek? a newer car like a Kia / Hyundai or a older better quality car? 

personally id look at older german brands as there built to last and not these newer Korean boxes they might be better now but the past is stuck with them, the only brand I have changed my mind on is Skoda after looking round Rob_vrs new one which is very nice but that I am afraid is it.


----------



## bidderman1969

If I had £10K I'd get a nice Sorento!


----------



## Shiny

James Bagguley said:


> So in essence, there is even snobbery within the Type R brand itself,


Of course there is!


NSX-R owners look down upon _everyone_
Accord Type R Owners look down on everyone other than NSX drivers
Integra Type R drivers think theirs is only proper race car
Civic Type R drivers secretly wish they had an Integra or Accord Type R
And finally Prelude drivers feel elite as the car didn't need a Type R badge (unless is it is for sale on ebay with Lexus rear lights and a Type R badge)


----------



## Derekh929

nichol4s said:


> surely its not snobbery its called having a choice,
> 
> so if you had lets say a budget of 10k what would you buy Derek? a newer car like a Kia / Hyundai or a older better quality car?
> 
> personally id look at older german brands as there built to last and not these newer Korean boxes they might be better now but the past is stuck with them, the only brand I have changed my mind on is Skoda after looking round Rob_vrs new one which is very nice but that I am afraid is it.


Thats a very good question i would buy something suitable for my requirements like the current cooper s get chopped in for a car for my daughter to be able to drive soon and we have narrowed it down to Seat Ibiza Toca most likely tried Polo, feasta, corsa, etc and i felt the Seat was the best looking with right colour combo and wheels and also for reliability , so thats my take on it, but did look at Fabia but wife was not keen on it even though cracking car. so would i buy new kia or hyundai or second hand german car if i'm putting on my sensible head the second hand german that has already lost a good chuck of its value and depretiate less hopefully than the new kia or hyundai well that make come accross as badge snobbery but thats how i would do it tbo:thumb:


----------



## Derekh929

Shiny said:


> Of course there is!
> 
> 
> NSX-R owners look down upon _everyone_
> Accord Type R Owners look down on everyone other than NSX drivers
> Integra Type R drivers think theirs is only proper race car
> Civic Type R drivers secretly wish they had an Integra or Accord Type R
> And finally Prelude drivers feel elite as the car didn't need a Type R badge (unless is it is for sale on ebay with Lexus rear lights and a Type R badge)


:lol: i never knew owning a honda was that complicated i have a Honda as well well an offroad Honda 390cc so what do i have to aspire to


----------



## nichol4s

Derekh929 said:


> Thats a very good question i would buy something suitable for my requirements like the current cooper s get chopped in for a car for my daughter to be able to drive soon and we have narrowed it down to Seat Ibiza Toca most likely tried Polo, feasta, corsa, etc and i felt the Seat was the best looking with right colour combo and wheels and also for reliability , so thats my take on it, but did look at Fabia but wife was not keen on it even though cracking car. so would i buy new kia or hyundai or second hand german car if i'm putting on my sensible head the second hand german that has already lost a good chuck of its value and depretiate less hopefully than the new kia or hyundai well that make come accross as badge snobbery but thats how i would do it tbo:thumb:


ah so a snob too? :lol::lol: what about these so called good French cars you mentioned?


----------



## Derekh929

nichol4s said:


> ah so a snob too? :lol::lol: what about these so called good French cars you mentioned?


Have you tried to get insurance for a 17 year old for a Renault Sport :lol: wish you could as that would have been high up the list also forgot to mention test Drive DS3 and fait 500 liked both but wife does not and all said and done its her that drives it most of the time, but yes French have some nice looking cars:thumb:

And as for Snobbery if you have a BMW i thought everyone else already knew you were a snob do they not lol


----------



## 182_Blue

Derekh929 you know we can see who adds what tags dont you :thumb:


----------



## Derekh929

Shaun said:


> Derekh929 you know we can see who adds what tags dont you :thumb:


Yes thats why people do it next will likely be Honda RRRR related to get Kev to answer my question :thumb:

Bet it's that Kerr again lol


----------



## 182_Blue

In answer to the original question, well i have owned most brands out there and some i will buy again and some i wont, i am not going into detail as i wouldn't like to offend current owners as we are obviously a multi brand forum.

Currently and for my last 3 cars or so i have been stuck on one brand, the reasons i like the brand are they are not cheap but then they aren't overly expensive compared to some, i can upgrade bits on them as i know my way around them, i have computer equipment that i can use to tweak them and look for faults etc etc, my dealer is very close and are good with me, they service my car on a Saturday morning whilst i wait and feed me copious amounts of biscuits and coffee, i get discount at my local parts specialists, on top of that the brand specific forums seem to be busier than most too.

Am i a brand snob ?, i dont think so, i buy what i like and what looks after me and works for me and i dont buy things that i dont like or that let me down or treat me badly.


----------



## Derekh929

Shaun said:


> In answer to the original question, well i have owned most brands out there and some i will buy again and some i wont, i am not going into detail as i wouldn't like to offend current owners as we are obviously a multi brand forum.
> 
> Currently and for my last 3 cars or so i have been stuck on one brand, the reasons i like the brand are they are not cheap but then they aren't overly expensive compared to some, i can upgrade bits on them as i know my way around them, i have computer equipment that i can use to tweak them and look for faults etc etc, my dealer is very close and are good with me, they service my car on a Saturday morning whilst i wait and feed me copious amounts of biscuits and coffee, i get discount at my local parts specialists, on top of that the brand specific forums seem to be busier than most too.
> 
> Am i a brand snob ?, i dont think so, i buy what i like and what looks after me and works for me and i dont buy things that i dont like or that let me down or treat me badly.


Good point re close to dealer and also parts easily available and saturday service option very handy for sure , i told my local dealer that said they did not do saturday services i was using another dealer funnily they offered to do on saturday as well. i See so if good Chocolate biscuts at dealer that helps as well:lol:

So service and reliability key for you :thumb:


----------



## Shiny

Derekh929 said:


> :lol: i never knew owning a honda was that complicated i have a Honda as well well an offroad Honda 390cc so what do i have to aspire to


Well, if it is a 2 stroke, then it has to be the NSR500 :argie:










And if a 4 stroke, then the RC46 RVF750 :argie::argie::argie:


----------



## CoOkIeMoNsTeR

Derekh929 said:


> Have you tried to get insurance for a 17 year old for a Renault Sport :lol: wish you could as that would have been high up the list also forgot to mention test Drive DS3 and fait 500 liked both but wife does not and all said and done its her that drives it most of the time, but yes French have some nice looking cars:thumb:
> 
> And as for Snobbery if you have a BMW i thought everyone else already knew you were a snob do they not lol


Not a RenSport, but my brothers first car was a Megane 1.5 dCi, 2004 04 plate, was rubbish but very cheap, like £1700 to insure per year @ 17, £800 @ 18 1 year ncb, but didnt keep long. Personally I'd have the Fabia, but thats just me and a TSi engine to make it worth it.

Now my siblings aren't really brand snobs, but they stick to the same brands? Bro number 2 has a Focus mk3 now and has had Fords for years, number 3 drives a Toyota something, boring thingy and youngest has now has a Peugeot and this is his second and he's confident he'll get another. Only me that chops and changes but I dont ever go to dealers and do all my own servicing, like I said, we're normally a 2 car house, theres always a car I'm selling somewhere and the Merc was impulse but here to stay, maybe my 407 will replace the Freelander permenently, who knows?

My question (if I'm allowed to ask) is what brings people into brand loyalty? Be interested to know


----------



## Kriminal

Derekh929 said:


> Have you tried to get insurance for a 17 year old for a Renault Sport :lol: wish you could as that would have been high up the list also forgot to mention test Drive DS3 and fait 500 liked both but wife does not and all said and done its her that drives it most of the time, but yes French have some nice looking cars:thumb:
> 
> *And as for Snobbery if you have a BMW i thought everyone else already knew you were a snob do they not *lol


^ Oi. I heard that!


----------



## RisingPower

Shiny said:


> Of course there is!
> 
> 
> NSX-R owners look down upon _everyone_
> Accord Type R Owners look down on everyone other than NSX drivers
> Integra Type R drivers think theirs is only proper race car
> Civic Type R drivers secretly wish they had an Integra or Accord Type R
> And finally Prelude drivers feel elite as the car didn't need a Type R badge (unless is it is for sale on ebay with Lexus rear lights and a Type R badge)


No offence shiny, but I never wanted an atr when I had my ep3 

Maybe an integra or nsx-r though


----------



## Derekh929

CoOkIeMoNsTeR said:


> Not a RenSport, but my brothers first car was a Megane 1.5 dCi, 2004 04 plate, was rubbish but very cheap, like £1700 to insure per year @ 17, £800 @ 18 1 year ncb, but didnt keep long. Personally I'd have the Fabia, but thats just me and a TSi engine to make it worth it.
> 
> Now my siblings aren't really brand snobs, but they stick to the same brands? Bro number 2 has a Focus mk3 now and has had Fords for years, number 3 drives a Toyota something, boring thingy and youngest has now has a Peugeot and this is his second and he's confident he'll get another. Only me that chops and changes but I dont ever go to dealers and do all my own servicing, like I said, we're normally a 2 car house, theres always a car I'm selling somewhere and the Merc was impulse but here to stay, maybe my 407 will replace the Freelander permenently, who knows?
> 
> My question (if I'm allowed to ask) is what brings people into brand loyalty? Be interested to know


Thanks , yes very valid question well I will start of with owning an e30 in the 80's had a problem with the back end likely my aggressive driving, they switched it out for new one without question, the car was a dream to drive silky smooth and I longed for another until I got my e46 330d one of the best desiel engines in the market had a problem two year out of waranty i challenged bmw saying the part should have lasted the life of the car they looked into it two day later they credited 80% of my bill to repair back to me wowIMHO , then tried Merc and Audi and some others before getting the e90 330d great engine again but just to hard and fidgety IMHO but still a great car. Drive train and handling come before looks for me and engine. When I got annoyed about sorting out a test drive with bmw dealer I tried jag and I ended up guest at Goodwood of jaguar as dealer was excellent and he was going down. When went to BMW stand for a drink in customer lounge they asked why I was guest of jag but bmw owner I told them about the test drive carry on, and how jag dealt with it.
Wow Steve sooper ex touring car driver heard this and said I would be getting a call next I knew was invited to big event at brands hatch as apologies . Then got F31 330d m sport the engine and auto sport box is fantastic and great compliant handling , so for me the reliability and driving experience and balance of car are very important for me to continue to buy into the brand


----------



## Derekh929

Shiny said:


> Well, if it is a 2 stroke, then it has to be the NSR500 :argie:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And if a 4 stroke, then the RC46 RVF750 :argie::argie::argie:


I'm liking a lot , but I'm lusting after the new go to sport bike bmw.


----------



## Derekh929

Message to Shaun can you nail these tag jokers:lol:


----------



## O`Neil

Derekh929 said:


> so the big question is what do you drive and thanks for your honesty i bet a few would have liked to reply like you have top marks
> So lets get this straight you won't want a Nissian GTR? or Toyota GT86 two fantastic cars and best in class imho?
> with Vauxhall is this due to past problems or precieved poor build?
> 
> So old school defender at the ready?
> Can understand the american thing , but a mustang GT500 etc?
> French are starting to build some nice cars Renault Sport models? RCZ m DS3 & DS4 , is it build quality and after sales that scare you from these?
> 
> Thanks for your input look forward to your reply, tbo i have gone to the extremes on the above


Good afternoon 

Nissan GTR, yes what a machine and how darn fast are those things? But I still wouldn`t want one, they`re just too big and ugly. Anything American, no thanks. I could be tempted by something French perhaps, RenaultSport would be the only way in here.

I`ve owned many makes of cars over the years, I know what I like and I`m not tempted by marketing bull or how fast a car might be or any bhp pub talk figures, I guess it`s down to how much you have to spend on a car and how much you value a certain vehicle in your life and the needs in your life for any given vehicle. If I could manage with a Fiat 500 and only had £3000 to spend then I`d make do with a 3k Fiat. And then there`s an image issue, it may bother some people, it would bother me having to drive around in a Kia for example but I might not be as bothered in a 6 year old Golf diesel.

I reckon if you`re happy with your Vauxhall or Kia then great, somebody has to like `em :thumb:


----------



## possul

I find that people who have bought a German marque have no reason as to why they drive them apart from "but its a vw" i know people who own then will obviously have different reasons, in this e.g. That was the only reason.
That to me is the snobby side of what cars people pick
Id buy BMW if possible as i love the way they drive over a front wheel drive saloon or hatchback

To all new car buyers i think the dealer has (possibly) a bigger part, go to two dealers of different manafacturer and the one that treats you the best may swing it for you, as a customer at my old dealer flu d out and gave the vehicles a went to Kia instead


----------



## Chris79100

I'm not brand loyal at all...
I think that u had all the existing big sportbikes, and some cars.

For me it just have to not be boring with lot if sensation, I like engines that rev, just to be more like a bike and not boring as a stupid car...

Old honda for me, found their bikes a little boring, but not their old cars with their little I4 like b16/b18c with chassis that got some potential.

And a stupid boring car for everyday, golf, megane, whatever ...

Last car that I found really deceiving was the bmw1m, so asceptized, was waiting for something lot more fun!


----------



## Kriminal

possul said:


> *I find that people who have bought a German marque have no reason as to why they drive them* apart from "but its a vw" i know people who own then will obviously have different reasons, in this e.g. That was the only reason.
> That to me is the snobby side of what cars people pick
> Id buy BMW if possible as i love the way they drive over a front wheel drive saloon or hatchback
> 
> To all new car buyers i think the dealer has (possibly) a bigger part, go to two dealers of different manafacturer and the one that treats you the best may swing it for you, as a customer at my old dealer flu d out and gave the vehicles a went to Kia instead


<hand goes up>....."I do, I do"....because I like the exterior design of it - it's simple, straightforward saloon shape, and that's it.

Yes, the drive is lovely with the BMW. But it's a complete pain in the butt for me, being RWD, as I need to reverse the car out of the drive every day - the first wheels to touch the icy surfaces are the rears (for me). So useless in that point, hence the reason I've had to buy winter tyres.

Interior design on the BMW is 'okay', but nothing I'd feel I could 'brag' about, as it's just 'okay'.....more like shameful, if you're to take in to consideration the badge.

Would I have bought this car, based on the exterior design, if it had another manufacturer's badge on it?......definitely. :thumb:


----------



## Rayner

Haven't read through the whole thread yet but I bought my Impreza because I need something that can handle a grassy field every now and then (AWD) and needed a decent boot for 2 dogs, decent handling and reasonable speed. The Impreza was the obvious choice for me.

I used to be in the category of not liking certain badges but since detailing quite a few different makes I've got to say its the exterior that does it for me now rather than what badge is on it.


----------



## Derekh929

rayner said:


> Haven't read through the whole thread yet but I bought my Impreza because I need something that can handle a grassy field every now and then (AWD) and needed a decent boot for 2 dogs, decent handling and reasonable speed. The Impreza was the obvious choice for me.
> 
> I used to be in the category of not liking certain badges but since detailing quite a few different makes I've got to say its the exterior that does it for me now rather than what badge is on it.


So what cars have the best interiors you have done? Good logical car choice on your Subaru


----------



## Rayner

Derekh929 said:


> So what cars have the best interiors you have done? Good logical car choice on your Subaru


I don't tend to pay much attention tbh, I like shiny things  as long as it's comfortable I'm happy lol.

The nicest I've done is probably the Aston in the background of this pic.










Didn't get much time with it though as I was working on the A3 and he happened to drop the Aston in to show off :lol: such nice leather, plastic let it down a little tbh as it didn't feel too much nicer than the plastics in my Scooby, slightly more expensive feeling but still didn't scream class imo

In general I like Alfa Romeo interiors though just because of the styling.


----------



## Derekh929

rayner said:


> I don't tend to pay much attention tbh, I like shiny things  as long as it's comfortable I'm happy lol.
> 
> The nicest I've done is probably the Aston in the background of this pic.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Didn't get much time with it though as I was working on the A3 and he happened to drop the Aston in to show off :lol: such nice leather, plastic let it down a little tbh as it didn't feel too much nicer than the plastics in my Scooby, slightly more expensive feeling but still didn't scream class imo
> 
> In general I like Alfa Romeo interiors though just because of the styling.


Thanks , I think we have also found the culpirate for all the missing wheel trims in wester super mare :lol: yes I like Alfa interior as well also Pagani :thumb:


----------



## Rayner

Derekh929 said:


> Thanks , I think we have also found the culpirate for all the missing wheel trims in wester super mare :lol: yes I like Alfa interior as well also Pagani :thumb:


:lol: not my garage!

It would be spotless if it were mine 

That's a 'Valeting centre' come workshop a mate of mine owns in Cheltenham, they had 1 big a$$ bottle of g3 and a single bottle of autosmart polish bottle that they didn't know the name of or manufacturer of lol.

Didn't do a bad job considering tbf

And god was it dusty in there :doublesho I vacuumed the ceiling before anything else :lol:


----------



## RisingPower

O`Neil said:


> Good afternoon
> 
> Nissan GTR, yes what a machine and how darn fast are those things? But I still wouldn`t want one, they`re just too big and ugly. Anything American, no thanks. I could be tempted by something French perhaps, RenaultSport would be the only way in here.
> 
> I`ve owned many makes of cars over the years, I know what I like and I`m not tempted by marketing bull or how fast a car might be or any bhp pub talk figures, I guess it`s down to how much you have to spend on a car and how much you value a certain vehicle in your life and the needs in your life for any given vehicle. If I could manage with a Fiat 500 and only had £3000 to spend then I`d make do with a 3k Fiat. And then there`s an image issue, it may bother some people, it would bother me having to drive around in a Kia for example but I might not be as bothered in a 6 year old Golf diesel.
> 
> I reckon if you`re happy with your Vauxhall or Kia then great, somebody has to like `em :thumb:


What I don't get is how a diesel bog standard golf can in any way be seen as prestigious?

Oh and you missed out a number of other brands and countries.


----------



## Jdm boy

I wouldnt like to think I'm a badge snob really but there is a few brands that I wouldn't even consider whilst buying a car, so maybe I am lol

BMW is top of my list of cars not to buy (well maybe a 540d or M5)


----------



## Derekh929

Jdm boy said:


> I wouldnt like to think I'm a badge snob really but there is a few brands that I wouldn't even consider whilst buying a car, so maybe I am lol
> 
> BMW is top of my list of cars not to buy (well maybe a 540d or M5)


And this is the core reason why people buy the wrong car as they are hoodwinked by some zealous nonsense :lol:


----------



## suspal

I wouldn't ever buy a Peugeot simply because they closed down Ryton


----------



## Derekh929

suspal said:


> I wouldn't ever buy a Peugeot simply because they closed down Ryton


That's personal but not the car, sometimes though if something is losing shed loads of money it has to change or stop?


----------



## O`Neil

RisingPower said:


> What I don't get is how a diesel bog standard golf can in any way be seen as prestigious?
> 
> Oh and you missed out a number of other brands and countries.


I`m not thinking prestigious if I were to ride around in on old diesel Golf but for me I`d see it as a better product than, for example, a newish Daewoo. Not that there`s anything wrong with a Daewoo 

Kinda in the same way as if I were to buy Kelloggs cereal or the supermarkets own brand of cornflake, I know what I prefer :thumb:

But hey I`m no expert, it`s all personnel choice


----------



## RisingPower

O`Neil said:


> I`m not thinking prestigious if I were to ride around in on old diesel Golf but for me I`d see it as a better product than, for example, a newish Daewoo. Not that there`s anything wrong with a Daewoo
> 
> Kinda in the same way as if I were to buy Kelloggs cereal or the supermarkets own brand of cornflake, I know what I prefer :thumb:
> 
> But hey I`m no expert, it`s all personnel choice


What about an old diesel golf or a lotus europa?

I think the key there is mass market.

Chevrolet make some shockingly awful cars like the kalos, but they also make camaros, I can't think of any comparison from vw.


----------



## Derekh929

RisingPower said:


> What about an old diesel golf or a lotus europa?
> 
> I think the key there is mass market.
> 
> Chevrolet make some shockingly awful cars like the kalos, but they also make camaros, I can't think of any comparison from vw.


A car is what you want it to be but you are comparing chalk and cheese lotus Europa not there finest hour against a oil burner golf that is not a comparisons , we don't all have a head mechanic following us to tesco for the weekly shop


----------



## RisingPower

Derekh929 said:


> A car is what you want it to be but you are comparing chalk and cheese lotus Europa not there finest hour against a oil burner golf that is not a comparisons , we don't all have a head mechanic following us to tesco for the weekly shop


Ok, exige 

What about alfa romeos, holdens, volvos. That's 3 other countries/brands for a start.

I don't think i'll ever see the appeal of a diesel golf, it's just a mass market average hatchback, not much different to any other.

If I wanted a drivers car, it has a clattery, heavy, weedy engine, if I wanted a practical car, it isn't *that* practical, if I wanted a prestigious car, it's not.


----------



## catgroom

*.*

Hi!

I've gone straight to this page to post,then I'll read thread.Its just nice to contribute here,after viewing for so many years!

I don't buy any car after 1996.This,irrespective of brand,is when cars became electrically complexed and I want a DIYable car.

Above anything else,I buy a car on looks and build quality.I'm a proper badge snob yup.Its my ego/personality and I'm alright with that.

The shape of my W124 E Class Coupe is timeless.Most say Grandad car,boring,old,slow.To me,this can have AMG/Carat or whichever firm's body upgrades.Fine,I love ebay bargains!!
If I want more power,I sell this one which increases in value with each year,and buy one with a more powerful engine.
Another thing I love.Get on the motorway and you can feel this car come into its own.You can also feel why it was 41k new,and would most likely be what,70ish k now to buy an equivalent??

I've undersealed her and its working well.If she ever fails an MOT its on something so petty a new car could fail on it,like a bulb blown.

The down side? I pamper her and that has cost me.But,I picked her up from ebay for £450,having scanned the unsold listings for 3 weeks.She was worth 2k,and all I had to do was put the correct springs on her.Outlay £250.

There's not many cars I have jumped into which are 20 years old +,and use as a daily.One was my 1984 Audi 200 Turbo,the other this car.20k per year,which is counteracting the value yes,but the pleasure of owning/driving her is like no other.She is my 46th car.Iam 44 and owned cars since 14yo.She is above any Porsche 924/44,Audi,Saab owned previously.

Look forward to being **** about face and reading the thread now,and seeing just how off topic I probably am! lol

Steve :wave::thumb:


----------



## cbr6fs

catgroom said:


> I don't buy any car after 1996.This,irrespective of brand,is when cars became electrically complexed and I want a DIYable car.


Hi Steve,

I think it's important to differentiate here the difference between your perception and the reality.

As a classic car fan i'm the first to admit that modern cars are infinitely easier to work on than older pre OBDII cars.

It's a steep learning curve for sure, but once you've got your head around OBD and electronic engine management it's like comparing cooking your food on a open fire daily against using a microwave.

My 94 MX5 has an aftermarket ECU, i'm able to plug in my laptop and adjust absolutely anything.
I can plug in my laptop and monitor my air/fuel ratio via my wideband O2 sensor, monitor knock via my knock sensors, check cylinder head temp, exhaust gas temp.
I can adjust the AFR on any or all cylinders at any load point, likewise the ignition timing, i can even adjust the point the fan turns on.

If a problem occurs the OBD gives me a accurate idea on where to look, how long it's been a problem and often exactly what part to replace.

Compare this to tuning the carbs on my old bikes and i know which i'd sooner take.

As i say i am bordering on fanatical about old cars and bikes, but modern engine management systems are a million times better in every respect.

it does require some new learning and a investment in tools (software, leads etc) but once you've made the step you'll look back and wonder why you wasted so many hours.


----------



## andy665

There are far too many people who become brand champions but take it to the extreme and sometimes go completely OTT in defending their own choice of brand

We all have opinions - perhaps more than ever before people will struggle to buy a bad new car, still wide open to buy a car that does not meet your needs though

I have driven many different brands of car, owned a fair number of them and do not consider myself a brand champion of anyone, in fact the cars that stick out as being the most fun / most competent centre around Nissan Primera GTs and Cinquecento Sporting

I find the German 3 championing particularly tiresome with many owners blind to the good points that cars from the other two bands have - each car from each of those brands have strengths / weaknesses ( just like every other car on sale) - personally there is little in their respective ranges that appeals to me but I can understand why someone would buy a C Class, 3 series - but no more than I can understand why someone would buy a Kia or Citroen


----------



## Melkor

As above I think it is difficult to buy a really bad car these days, I have bought a lot of high mileage neglected crappers over the years and none of them have really let me down, except when the odd battery has given up, I would not buy another volvo though as the sheer amount of poor engineering decisions on my old v70 caused me no end of grief.


----------



## Suba

For me a lot comes down to the dealer.

Looked at a Skôda but the salesman was clearly not excited about cars nor particularly wanted to sell one. This typified the garage so Skôda out as don't want to take my car back to a garage with that much apathy. 

Walked in to our Toyota dealer, looked around for 10 minutes, no one came over to help, nor even said 'hello' (a simple smile to acknowledge my presence would have been nice) - they were not busy. Walked out. 

Volvo dealer was excellent, friendly, polite and not pushy. Not originally looking for a Volvo but ended up with one as clearly cared about the customer (and I did like the car too ;-)

So, hard to buy a poor car, but not hard to find a poor dealership!


----------



## Kerr

Dealerships have changed lots recently. In the past you'd often get hounded and pressed when looking. 

Now you can barely give your money away. 

There does seem to be a conjoined effort to artificially drive the value of cars up and trade ins down.

I've heard a few experienced car buyers becoming frustrated with the market.


----------



## focustjohn

I think people that buy brand new BMW's are buying because they 'think' they are good. People dislike skodas because they used to look crap and still have stupid names even though they are a VW underneath! Not my cup of tea but there just cheap reliable cars. 

Inhaled. Focus st and love it  always loved ford despite their problems! I love it when posh snobs ask me what IV got and they look down at me because they have a 116i BMW hahaha


----------



## Paintguy

Suba said:


> For me a lot comes down to the dealer.
> 
> *snip*
> 
> So, hard to buy a poor car, but not hard to find a poor dealership!


Hence our current TV ad campaign, urging you to "Test drive your dealer"

It's not just about the car any more. The buying experience and customer service is just as important for many, if not more so.


----------



## Kerr

focustjohn said:


> I think people that buy brand new BMW's are buying because they 'think' they are good. People dislike skodas because they used to look crap and still have stupid names even though they are a VW underneath! Not my cup of tea but there just cheap reliable cars.
> 
> Inhaled. Focus st and love it  always loved ford despite their problems! I love it when posh snobs ask me what IV got and they look down at me because they have a 116i BMW hahaha


Why would they be wrong in thinking that the BMW have bought is good?


----------



## focustjohn

Kerr said:


> Why would they be wrong in thinking that the BMW have bought is good?


I know a lot of people that have owned them and they have been terrible, there build quality isn't a patch on an audi.

A lot of people think a 1 series is a nice car....... I could not .be given one. There one of the ugliest cars on the road, same with the x1, x3 and. X6.

X5s aren't any good off road and are terrible to drive.

The only decent ones are the M cars..... Not m sports.

Even they aren't the best to look at but they don't half shift 

They should bring back the E30  best bmw's ever made!

As you can guess I don't really like BMW's.

I'm guessing you have one?


----------



## Kerr

focustjohn said:


> I know a lot of people that have owned them and they have been terrible, there build quality isn't a patch on an audi.
> 
> A lot of people think a 1 series is a nice car....... I could not .be given one. There one of the ugliest cars on the road, same with the x1, x3 and. X6.
> 
> X5s aren't any good off road and are terrible to drive.
> 
> The only decent ones are the M cars..... Not m sports.
> 
> Even they aren't the best to look at but they don't half shift
> 
> They should bring back the E30  best bmw's ever made!
> 
> As you can guess I don't really like BMW's.
> 
> I'm guessing you have one?


Have you seen Audi finished second last in warranty directs' engine reliability survey? What does that suggest about build quality? They do seem to have the upper hand on interior finish.

Agree the 1 series isn't the best looking car. Not many small hatch backs are but people tend overlook that fact.

Yup don't get the X1, X3 or X6. The X1 is positively ugly, but so are most of these scrunched up 4x4 cars made to fit a car market that isn't needed. Just silly buyers.

The X5 is terrible to drive? Compared to what? It is regarded as one of the best car of that category to drive. Compared to a sports car you have a point. Compared to like for like, you would be completely wrong.

The 3 series has been the benchmark for its class since it has existed. It's a very good car for its class. That's if it is an M car, M Sport or SE. They all fit the purpose they are intended.

Pretty clear you don't like BMW. It clearly clouds your judgement to give an accurate or fair opinion.


----------



## Kerr

We talk about badge snobbery from perceived "big brand owners". 

As I've always said, I find the attitude of the perceived lesser brands much worse. 

How can people build up a dislike to a car brand? Most of the folk have no experience, ownership or understanding of the cars, but build up a dislike for absolutely no rational reason. 

This passes on to the road. 

I've not changed my driving style in my 17 years of driving. Suddenly when driving a BMW, you suddenly get lots more aggressive drivers around you.

Yet we keep hearing "typical BMW driver" etc. 

Some people really need to think a little more about what is really going on. It's their dislike and rage that makes them do things and think things, that shouldn't, or didn't actually happen.


----------



## Melkor

My friend son has just got a new fiesta st in a burnt Orange reddy colour, it is a really nice car and the build quality is great. I've always liked fords and now there build quality seems equal or better than vw.


----------



## Rundie

I've got an X5 40d, I'm no numpty and have owned many performance cars and 4x4's, I have to say the drive of my X5 is amazing and that's why I got it.
It's my first BMW so I wouldn't consider myself brainwashed by the brand, had many non prestige makes before but the X5 ticks alot of boxes.


----------



## focustjohn

Kerr said:


> Have you seen Audi finished second last in warranty directs' engine reliability survey? What does that suggest about build quality? They do seem to have the upper hand on interior finish.
> 
> Agree the 1 series isn't the best looking car. Not many small hatch backs are but people tend overlook that fact.
> 
> Yup don't get the X1, X3 or X6. The X1 is positively ugly, but so are most of these scrunched up 4x4 cars made to fit a car market that isn't needed. Just silly buyers.
> 
> The X5 is terrible to drive? Compared to what? It is regarded as one of the best car of that category to drive. Compared to a sports car you have a point. Compared to like for like, you would be completely wrong.
> 
> The 3 series has been the benchmark for its class since it has existed. It's a very good car for its class. That's if it is an M car, M Sport or SE. They all fit the purpose they are intended.
> 
> Pretty clear you don't like BMW. It clearly clouds your judgement to give an accurate or fair opinion.


The x5 is terrible compared to like very other 4x4 on the market, there just Chelsea tractors.

My mate had a 3series m sport and it wasn't very good. It was a diesel, very poor on fuel.

We have had many audis and never had any problems, I don't know of 1 e46 BMW that's running smoothly, there all falling to pieces, and I like e46s.

Yeah I agree small SUV's are not the best looking, I don't feel there is need for them, you could buy an estate and be just as we'll off.

If the 3 series is the benchmark then it must be lowered because your average saloon has caught up with it as there are many cars i would have before one.

I think there getting better with the new 5 series and the 6 series is farrrrrr better looking than it's deformed predecessor, I just want them to go back to making nice looking, understated and cool cars like they used to.


----------



## Kerr

focustjohn said:


> The x5 is terrible compared to like very other 4x4 on the market, there just Chelsea tractors.
> 
> My mate had a 3series m sport and it wasn't very good. It was a diesel, very poor on fuel.
> 
> We have had many audis and never had any problems, I don't know of 1 e46 BMW that's running smoothly, there all falling to pieces, and I like e46s.
> 
> Yeah I agree small SUV's are not the best looking, I don't feel there is need for them, you could buy an estate and be just as we'll off.
> 
> If the 3 series is the benchmark then it must be lowered because your average saloon has caught up with it as there are many cars i would have before one.
> 
> I think there getting better with the new 5 series and the 6 series is farrrrrr better looking than it's deformed predecessor, I just want them to go back to making nice looking, understated and cool cars like they used to.


LOL, you're just trolling me now aren't you?

If you aren't, you don't have a clue what you are on about.


----------



## focustjohn

Kerr said:


> LOL, you're just trolling me now aren't you?
> 
> If you aren't, you don't have a clue what you are on about.


Not really I dont troll 

What I meant to say was the American designed bmw's which are the ones that replaced the e46 etc I think around 2004? Are poor,from what I have experienced, the e46s were good but **** loads of themes are falling to pieces.

But the new 5 series are a lot better than the old one same with the 6 series, there starting to get better built and starting to look better.... I hope!


----------



## Kerr

focustjohn said:


> Not really I dont troll
> 
> What I meant to say was the American designed bmw's which are the ones that replaced the e46 etc I think around 2004? Are poor,from what I have experienced, the e46s were good but **** loads of themes are falling to pieces.
> 
> But the new 5 series are a lot better than the old one same with the 6 series, there starting to get better built and starting to look better.... I hope!


What American designed BMW that replaced the E46? The E46 was replaced by the E90.

Bearing in mind E46s are upto 16 years old, of course you are going to get them falling to bits. You'll also find lots of mint E46s too.

Just like every brand, the well cared for ones are still going, the neglected ones aren't.

Not anything surprising or amazing going on here that is unique to BMW.

The E9x cars are very good cars. They have some issues like every other brand. It was still the benchmark overall in its class. Especially if handling was one of your requirements.


----------



## focustjohn

Kerr said:


> What American designed BMW that replaced the E46? The E46 was replaced by the E90.
> 
> Bearing in mind E46s are upto 16 years old, of course you are going to get them falling to bits. You'll also find lots of mint E46s too.
> 
> Just like every brand, the well cared for ones are still going, the neglected ones aren't.
> 
> Not anything surprising or amazing going on here that is unique to BMW.
> 
> The E9x cars are very good cars. They have some issues like every other brand. It was still the benchmark overall in its class. Especially if handling was one of your requirements.


Yeah the Americans designed the e90 didn't they? That's why they don't look as nice as the older ones.

I know of a few well looked after e46s and there electrics are breaking constantly!

I will give you that one about handling, the rwd does help..... A lot!


----------



## andy665

:car:


focustjohn said:


> Yeah the Americans designed the e90 didn't they? That's why they don't look as nice as the older ones.
> 
> I know of a few well looked after e46s and there electrics are breaking constantly!
> 
> I will give you that one about handling, the rwd does help..... A lot!


Chris Bangle led the design team - he was American - million miles from saying that BMWs of the Bangle era were American :lol: - was the Fiat Coupe an American design because he led that design team as well?

Anyway, styling is extremely subjective - one persons stunner is another's munter

Some BMWs are manufactured in the USA but still to Munich standards, that's globalisation for you - many 4 cylinder E46s sold in the UK were built in south Africa

My GTV was built by the same people that built Streetkas (Pininfarina) - doesn't make it any less of an Alfa

Boxsters have been built in Finland, TTs are built in Hungary, many Mercedes are built outside of Germany etc etc - in the grand scheme of things it doesn't really matter


----------



## Kerr

focustjohn said:


> Yeah the Americans designed the e90 didn't they? That's why they don't look as nice as the older ones.
> 
> I know of a few well looked after e46s and there electrics are breaking constantly!
> 
> I will give you that one about handling, the rwd does help..... A lot!


No. All the E90/91/92/93 models were designed in Germany. One designer was born in Tokyo. He is also the same guy as given credit for designing the E36 as well as the E90.

I can give you examples of lots of cars failing.


----------



## Derekh929

Wow this threads been wrecked , FocusJohn you ought to do your homework before , commenting , 3 series Deisel not good on fuel lol drove from NE Scotland to Gatwick on a tank of fuel 12.5 gallon 638 miles not to bad for 3.0ltr if you drive it like a petrol hot hatch the fuel will be poor.
By the way what all this got to do with badge snobbery


----------



## SadlyDistracted

It is odd that many comments are about the 'sales' side of the dealers, perrsonally I always ensure I 'interview the service dept's, look at the workshop and ask to speak to a mechanic or two as this is what really matters, those that look after the car not those that just flog it and move on...

As to snobbery there seems to be a distinct difference in quality between say Ford and VAG, BMW ? I looked at (trying to) buy a Ford a while ago and to say the sales side was lacking something was a bit of an undestatement, after 3 visits I gave up, ended up with a VW...

Prblem is really down to the dealers - after all they're all just franchisees.


As to the sales side it can be hit and miss between being harrased or ignored in the showroom


----------



## Derekh929

SadlyDistracted said:


> It is odd that many comments are about the 'sales' side of the dealers, perrsonally I always ensure I 'interview the service dept's, look at the workshop and ask to speak to a mechanic or two as this is what really matters, those that look after the car not those that just flog it and move on...
> 
> As to snobbery there seems to be a distinct difference in quality between say Ford and VAG, BMW ? I looked at (trying to) buy a Ford a while ago and to say the sales side was lacking something was a bit of an undestatement, after 3 visits I gave up, ended up with a VW...
> 
> Prblem is really down to the dealers - after all they're all just franchisees.
> 
> As to the sales side it can be hit and miss between being harrased or ignored in the showroom


Some very good points there re dealers I looked at corsa and fiesta to replace wife's car but local dealers were shocking just treated you as though you had not a clue and spouted nonsense , went for Seat Ibiza 400 miles away as salesman was very clued up and excellent . 
As for service my car will likely only have two services and I bet the mechanic will be different each time big staff turn around in this corner due to lure of oil industry


----------



## bradleymarky

I went to view a Mondeo that had been traded in at a local Jaguar centre and to tell the truth i nearly gave the salesman a smack on the nose, he tried talking down to me and asked if i`d been to the Mondeo shop across the raod (polar ford) the general snootyness was too much for me.

I ended up getting a Insignia, i did look at a BMW but in my neighbourhood it means...Break...My...Windows...


----------



## RisingPower

focustjohn said:


> I know a lot of people that have owned them and they have been terrible, there build quality isn't a patch on an audi.
> 
> A lot of people think a 1 series is a nice car....... I could not .be given one. There one of the ugliest cars on the road, same with the x1, x3 and. X6.
> 
> X5s aren't any good off road and are terrible to drive.
> 
> The only decent ones are the M cars..... Not m sports.
> 
> Even they aren't the best to look at but they don't half shift
> 
> They should bring back the E30  best bmw's ever made!
> 
> As you can guess I don't really like BMW's.
> 
> I'm guessing you have one?


What audi suvs are good off road/even intended for that purpose?


----------



## Rundie

Up until yesterday I owned an L200 too, excellent off road capabilities but the worst it saw in 7 years was a flat field, as long as the X5 is reasonable in snow then that'll do me and many others that buy them.


----------



## lofty

I buy cars that I want to own and are within budget, it just so happens most of them have been German 'premium brand' cars.I started off with BMW's, then bought quite a few Audi's, pathetic customer service from Audi brought to an end to my Audi buying days, although I do still like their cars.Since then I've had a brief affair with a sexy Italian, I'm now back in love with a German.I buy cars for the way they look, handle, perform and sound, am I a badge snob, possibly, or do I just like nice cars, maybe. I also drive a Renault Trafic , if I was a badge snob, surely I'd drive a Mercedes Vito


----------



## Rundie

lofty said:


> am I a badge snob, possibly, or do I just like nice cars, maybe. I also drive a Renault Trafic , if I was a badge snob, surely I'd drive a Mercedes Vito


I've owned and run a 15 yr old Rover in the past few years, flat cap and a pipe jobbie, also a Mitsubishi L200 pick up so I wouldn't class myself as a badge snob either


----------



## SteveTDCi

All cars are the same, it just depends on how much ass kissing you want at the dealers, as with everything it's the customer service when things go wrong that counts, what manufacturers want and what dealers give are two different things, that's why you can have one great bmw dealer and one awful one.

With regards to the 1 series, it's an acquired taste but the 3 day demo I had on a 118d 3 day demo some 4 years ago was a much better car the the awful a3 I had at the time. The x5 in the snow, only if it has sensible wheels on it.

Am I a badge snob, hmmm I don't think so, I like cars but there are some I chose not not own but that's because I don't like them as a car not because of the badge. Would I have a bmw ... Technically the mini is, I admire bmw's engineering but don't buy into the theory they are any better than a ford.


----------



## Derekh929

SteveTDCi said:


> All cars are the same, it just depends on how much ass kissing you want at the dealers, as with everything it's the customer service when things go wrong that counts, what manufacturers want and what dealers give are two different things, that's why you can have one great bmw dealer and one awful one.
> 
> With regards to the 1 series, it's an acquired taste but the 3 day demo I had on a 118d 3 day demo some 4 years ago was a much better car the the awful a3 I had at the time. The x5 in the snow, only if it has sensible wheels on it.
> 
> Am I a badge snob, hmmm I don't think so, I like cars but there are some I chose not not own but that's because I don't like them as a car not because of the badge. Would I have a bmw ... Technically the mini is, I admire bmw's engineering but don't buy into the theory they are any better than a ford.


i Think many knock BMW without the 3 day test as you say, good point re ford, since knew Focus imho Ford have lifted quality and are closer to the VW there every in the past and many other are knocking on the door tbo


----------



## SteveTDCi

One thing that we have found through hire cars is that Hyundai i40's are not the best, we have had a couple different ones driven by a number of people and all knock the quality, gearbox and pulling to one side as well as cheap feeling plastics being the main criticism


----------



## Blackmondie

Don't completely agree here. I have driven many fords, and now have a BMW and I think there is a big difference in how it drives, reacts, how stable it is on the road (even in wet conditions). also the RWD is a pleasure to drive with , even in rainy and snowy days, I haven't had any problems, but my fords did tend to break out sooner...


----------



## Derekh929

Blackmondie said:


> Don't completely agree here. I have driven many fords, and now have a BMW and I think there is a big difference in how it drives, reacts, how stable it is on the road (even in wet conditions). also the RWD is a pleasure to drive with , even in rainy and snowy days, I haven't had any problems, but my fords did tend to break out sooner...


But was it the new style focus etc , and we was not comparing it against BMW but VW , also difficult to compare FWD car with RWD tbo, as Steve said a longer test drive then opens up different opinions than initial 10 min test drive will let you see


----------



## DJ X-Ray

There's brands i prefer but i wouldn't say i'm snobbish about them. It all depends how they drive tbh but i suppose acceleration is what does it for me. Always has. I don't really get into the Audi V BM thing too much because i like and owned both although admittedly more VAGs. At the end of the day i'd drive anything by any maker if it feels right


----------



## Blackmondie

SteveTDCi said:


> I admire bmw's engineering but don't buy into the theory they are any better than a ford.


I was responding on that scentence.
Personally I'm not the biggest fan of VW as I think they are to much hype. having had a Golf and a Jette as a replacement car for a while + diving the work caddy, I don't see what all the fuss is about. I didn't think they drove exceptionnally well, had there fair share of problems. Only think I found very well was the very light-shifting gearbox.
I did enjoy driving the Ford mondeo MK4 more then driving a VW


----------



## focustjohn

Derekh929 said:


> Wow this threads been wrecked , FocusJohn you ought to do your homework before , commenting , 3 series Deisel not good on fuel lol drove from NE Scotland to Gatwick on a tank of fuel 12.5 gallon 638 miles not to bad for 3.0ltr if you drive it like a petrol hot hatch the fuel will be poor.
> By the way what all this got to do with badge snobbery


We'll to be fair my mate who is an avid BMW fan told me the new ones are designed by Americans that's why there not nice looking,

And my mate had the 2.0 diesel m sport and it was shocking around town, think he was getting low 20s lol

I get that out of my ST


----------



## Young_JD

I don't buy a car for the badge, i buy it because i like it, the way it looks & such. The new Kia Pro c'eed R is a beautiful car, expensive-ish but a brilliant car & it's a Kia! So badges mean nothing


----------



## SteveTDCi

Blackmondie said:


> I was responding on that scentence.
> Personally I'm not the biggest fan of VW as I think they are to much hype. having had a Golf and a Jette as a replacement car for a while + diving the work caddy, I don't see what all the fuss is about. I didn't think they drove exceptionnally well, had there fair share of problems. Only think I found very well was the very light-shifting gearbox.
> I did enjoy driving the Ford mondeo MK4 more then driving a VW


I'm referring to engineering and design, the bits that you don't see everyone can make a car feel different and with enough budget make them feel special. If ford spent the same amount in building a mondeo as bmw do on the 3 series then the mondeo "could" possibly a far better car than the 3. Compare the issues bmw have with there engines compared to the amount of issues fords have with there's, then look at the type of people that drive fords and how many on the road.

You don't have to use ford as an example, any other mainstream can be used. You only need to look at the vag group to see what additional money can do when the same basic parts are used.


----------



## SteveTDCi

focustjohn said:


> We'll to be fair my mate who is an avid BMW fan told me the new ones are designed by Americans that's why there not nice looking,
> 
> And my mate had the 2.0 diesel m sport and it was shocking around town, think he was getting low 20s lol
> 
> I get that out of my ST


But that's you mates fault, not the engine, no diesel is designed for town work. Diesel is designed to sit at 70mph for mile after mile.


----------



## Derekh929

SteveTDCi said:


> But that's you mates fault, not the engine, no diesel is designed for town work. Diesel is designed to sit at 70mph for mile after mile.


Bang on and he will be needing a DPF soon that's if he knows about this:doublesho


----------



## Kerr

focustjohn said:


> We'll to be fair my mate who is an avid BMW fan told me the new ones are designed by Americans that's why there not nice looking,
> 
> And my mate had the 2.0 diesel m sport and it was shocking around town, think he was getting low 20s lol
> 
> I get that out of my ST


My car has 500cc more than you, an extra turbo, an extra cylinder and almost 40% more power and I get better fuel economy than an ST with the 2.5l engine. I'm nowhere near a 320d.

If anyone is returning low 20mpg from a 320d, they either have a serious problem with their car or their driving, or you just made that up. Given your earlier BMW rants, I'd go with the third option.


----------



## focustjohn

Kerr said:


> My car has 500cc more than you, an extra turbo, an extra cylinder and almost 40% more power and I get better fuel economy than an ST with the 2.5l engine. I'm nowhere near a 320d.
> 
> If anyone is returning low 20mpg from a 320d, they either have a serious problem with their car or their driving, or you just made that up. Given your earlier BMW rants, I'd go with the third option.


How do you know what power mines at lol......

We'll his was terrible, even when we went down South it used quite a big of diesel.... He must have been driving it wrong lol!


----------



## focustjohn

That's BMW badge snobbery...... Them thinking their car is superior in very way haha


----------



## Dannbodge

focustjohn said:


> That's BMW badge snobbery...... Them thinking their car is superior in very way haha


That's because they are........ :-D


----------



## focustjohn

Dannbodge said:


> That's because they are........ :-D


If you had an e30 I'd agree 

They are just awesome in every way!


----------



## Derekh929

focustjohn said:


> That's BMW badge snobbery...... Them thinking their car is superior in very way haha


I take it you have driven a lot of BMW's then to compare as that's the best way to judge something not just base you assumptions that all BMW owners are T**ts lol


----------



## Dannbodge

focustjohn said:


> If you had an e30 I'd agree
> 
> They are just awesome in every way!


I might have ;-)


----------



## Derekh929

focustjohn said:


> If you had an e30 I'd agree
> 
> They are just awesome in every way!


I had an e30 in 1988 an 325i sport, loved it , but believe you me the new 3 series is leagues ahead:thumb:


----------



## focustjohn

Derekh929 said:


> I take it you have driven a lot of BMW's then to compare as that's the best way to judge something not just base you assumptions that all BMW owners are T**ts lol


I'm only joking  people seem to be getting very annoyed lol I'm only talking from my experiences!

If you choose BMW then good luck, just there are a lot of cars I'd buy before buying one


----------



## Derekh929

focustjohn said:


> I'm only joking  people seem to be getting very annoyed lol I'm only talking from my experiences!
> 
> If you choose BMW then good luck, just there are a lot of cars I'd buy before buying one


:lol: your experiences seem some what clouded by lack of facts , best to debate something you know about or you get found out pretty quickly on here :thumb:
More to the point what makes your Volvo so good sorry I mean ST , a car I like


----------



## focustjohn

Derekh929 said:


> :lol: your experiences seem some what clouded by lack of facts , best to debate something you know about or you get found out pretty quickly on here :thumb:
> More to the point what makes your Volvo so good sorry I mean ST , a car I like


We'll I know ther not my cup of yea and from past experiences they arennt the 'ultimate' driving machines as stated, some are but most aren't lol

I love my ST, it's fast, comfortable, looks good and sounds awesome and it chucks out flames. Probably sound like a chav but I'm not haha I haven't put some chavvy flame kit on it does it naturally  yeah it maybe a Volvo engine but with a few mods it really does shift


----------



## CoOkIeMoNsTeR

Well, you guys have done it now, I've just joined Derek, Kerr and the gang on the dark side with the replacement for my Freelander (plan went totally pear shaped, it was supposed to be a Lexus dammit!)

Whaddya reckon to my new mean machine guys? :wave:


----------



## focustjohn

CoOkIeMoNsTeR said:


> Well, you guys have done it now, I've just joined Derek, Kerr and the gang on the dark side with the replacement for my Freelander (plan went totally pear shaped, it was supposed to be a Lexus dammit!)
> 
> Whaddya reckon to my new mean machine guys? :wave:


They 22s?


----------



## Guest

I have, well had a BMW until some scrote drove it off my drive !!, i will be honest though most people i see driving BMW's are ******s !, either sales types in company cars or people who buy an ex company car that want the image but cant afford new.


----------



## Derekh929

CoOkIeMoNsTeR said:


> Well, you guys have done it now, I've just joined Derek, Kerr and the gang on the dark side with the replacement for my Freelander (plan went totally pear shaped, it was supposed to be a Lexus dammit!)
> 
> Whaddya reckon to my new mean machine guys? :wave:


:doublesho not another member to pick on:lol: this will take the heat off us know you Have Came Out In Public Brave Man


----------



## Guest

That is a joke i hope ?



CoOkIeMoNsTeR said:


> Well, you guys have done it now, I've just joined Derek, Kerr and the gang on the dark side with the replacement for my Freelander (plan went totally pear shaped, it was supposed to be a Lexus dammit!)
> 
> Whaddya reckon to my new mean machine guys? :wave:


----------



## CoOkIeMoNsTeR

focustjohn said:


> They 22s?


They are :doublesho Project Kahn jobbies or summat. Expect to see them on ebay in the future and I'll put the standard 19's back on 



Derekh929 said:


> :doublesho not another member to pick on:lol: this will take the heat off us know you Have Came Out In Public Brave Man


Aye, I was offered it a price too good to refuse, so I though why not? 2001 Y reg 4.4 V8 sport on LPG with 136k otc. The first owner was Marty Wilde the singer and I have the original sales receipt for £55,764.93 :doublesho

Expect to see a detail thread in the near future :thumb:


----------



## CoOkIeMoNsTeR

wraith68 said:


> That is a joke i hope ?


No joke, bought the car 2 days ago 

The wheels will go soon I promise :thumb:


----------



## Blackmondie

wraith68 said:


> either sales types in company cars


So I'm the lucky sales guy who gets a crappy Peugeot 5008...


----------



## Guest

Blackmondie said:


> So I'm the lucky sales guy who gets a crappy Peugeot 5008...


You should have tried harder at school :lol:


----------



## Richf

Total brand snob here I replaced my E320 CDI (which was bought new before anyone suggest otherwise) with a Skoda , had the Merc for almost 8 years and 80k , great car but the Skoda has been a better one so far (5 years and 70k)and its just as nice to drive with more toys.

Biggest difference really is the dealers, Skodas used to be good and Mercedes used to be lousy , not sure thats still the case for either any more though

Couldnt give a fig what anyone else thinks about my car choice and I guess it shows with two Skodas and a Datsun in our household

Might consider a Merc next but like the look of the Volvo and I've never had one of those


----------



## Blackmondie

wraith68 said:


> You should have tried harder at school :lol:


And my wife has taken my BMW now as her DD... 
Damn you school, Damn you...


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## AndyC

Well I now drive a Skoda - didn't think I'd be saying that 15 years ago.

Looked at BMW and Merc but for my budget the choice was poor and the octavia does everything I want it to do.

It's well built, safe, economical and quick. It's also very tax effective - £700 a year less than another S Max or Mondeo would have been.

My old S Max felt pretty much the same at 100k as the day it arrived so the new car will have a lot to live up to.

I go for what I want - the badge is academic although I did chose a vrs over a lower spec model as it has the kit I wanted. And still £5k less than the mechanically similar but smaller Golf GTD.


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## DLGWRX02

When I look for a car before I even decide which model I always put a list together, first what I'm looking for in a car. Second I like gadgets, so most have some gizmos. I like to be slightly different also. When I bought my present car, I distinctively wanted a 4wd convertible with a bit of oomph. I then decided it needs to have under 40k miles, fsh etc. 
After looking through various sites and made a short list, I found the S4, and until this I had never owned an Audi or an auto come to think of it.


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## Lowiepete

I've mostly driven Renault cars during my near 50 years of motoring. The main
reason being "more bang for buck". With Renault having all the F1 racing 
experience under their belts, that comes down the line into their road cars.
As for petrol turbo fitted cars, again the F1 experience shows - there's not a
lot that anyone can teach them about that technology, and it showed in the
road cars. Mere mention of the R11T or R5GTT and their successors causes
an immediate pulse stimulus.

I bought my present car simply on the looks. I cannot for one moment justify
its purpose, but the biggest motivator for me was that I'm unsure how long
before my disability starts interfering with my ability to drive. So, I'm going out
with a bang! Hang the expense and who cares about the depreciation?

Of course, I got the "but it's French" and "rubbish build quality" jibes when I
first mentioned buying it. However, if I sell it tomorrow, it will have lost just
£15K in 5 years! You can lose that in just a single year with a premium brand.

Who could not love the look of that rear end? 









Now, 5 years on, it seems that people see it as a desirable car. Very few 
report reliability problems and no-one complains about build quality either!
Thing is, I've enjoyed ownership for the past 5 years, and that enjoyment is
not about to imminently fade, for me, it's a keeper.

Regards,
Steve


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## Kerr

Lowiepete said:


> I've mostly driven Renault cars during my near 50 years of motoring. The main
> reason being "more bang for buck". With Renault having all the F1 racing
> experience under their belts, that comes down the line into their road cars.
> As for petrol turbo fitted cars, again the F1 experience shows - there's not a
> lot that anyone can teach them about that technology, and it showed in the
> road cars. Mere mention of the R11T or R5GTT and their successors causes
> an immediate pulse stimulus.
> 
> I bought my present car simply on the looks. I cannot for one moment justify
> its purpose, but the biggest motivator for me was that I'm unsure how long
> before my disability starts interfering with my ability to drive. So, I'm going out
> with a bang! Hang the expense and who cares about the depreciation?
> 
> Of course, I got the "but it's French" and "rubbish build quality" jibes when I
> first mentioned buying it. However, if I sell it tomorrow, it will have lost just
> £15K in 5 years! You can lose that in just a single year with a premium brand.
> 
> Who could not love the look of that rear end?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now, 5 years on, it seems that people see it as a desirable car. Very few
> report reliability problems and no-one complains about build quality either!
> Thing is, I've enjoyed ownership for the past 5 years, and that enjoyment is
> not about to imminently fade, for me, it's a keeper.
> 
> Regards,
> Steve


What do you feel has past from a F1 on to a Laguna?

Not sure how F1 technology has helped with turbocharging. Until the new cars coming this year, it's a long time since F1 cars has a turbo.

Bang for buck, value for money etc is all very subjective. What was value to someone, wasn't to someone else.

The only premium cars that lose value badly are often the huge expensive ones that most people can't justify owning.

The premium cars around the Laguna's size and spec usually hold their value very well. It's not a like for like comparison.


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## SadlyDistracted

Blackmondie said:


> So I'm the lucky sales guy who gets a crappy Peugeot 5008...


Not sure I'd use the term 'lucky' .....:doublesho


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## Kriminal

So have we come to the conclusion that BMW & Audi are faaaar better than anything else?


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## Dannbodge

Kriminal said:


> So have we come to the conclusion that BMW are faaaar better than Audi?


Fixed that for you 
:thumbs:


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## DLGWRX02

After driving a, 97' 1.9 z3, a 04' 2.8 z3, 06' m3, 55' 4.4 x5 a 58' 525d, 06' 645. 55' s4 cab, 55' slk55amg, 60' e500 cab,

Ide still rather have my Scooby's back....lol


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## Kriminal

Dannbodge said:


> Fixed that for you
> :thumbs:


Thanks for that. Even the best of us can make typing errors on occasion. :thumb:


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## Derekh929

Kriminal said:


> So have we come to the conclusion that BMW & Audi are faaaar better than anything else?


No No No we have not :doublesho we knew this before started according to the owners of BMW & Audi :lol:


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## Derekh929

DLGWRX02 said:


> After driving a, 97' 1.9 z3, a 04' 2.8 z3, 06' m3, 55' 4.4 x5 a 58' 525d, 06' 645. 55' s4 cab, 55' slk55amg, 60' e500 cab,
> 
> Ide still rather have my Scooby's back....lol


Are you a German? Wow bad snob if there is such a thing:lol: sounds fantastic


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## m33porsche

Derekh929 said:


> No No No we have not :doublesho we knew this before started according to the owners of BMW & Audi :lol:


why set our standards so low :doublesho


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## Kriminal

m33porsche said:


> why set our standards so low :doublesho


Fiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight!! :lol:  :thumb:


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## Lowiepete

Kerr said:


> What do you feel has past from a F1 on to a Laguna?
> 
> Not sure how F1 technology has helped with turbocharging. Until the new cars coming this year, it's a long time since F1 cars has a turbo.







Some historic evidence for you...

Oh, and the 4wheel steer / suspension on the 205GT comes straight from
RenaultSport too...

Like I said, with a heritage like that, there's not much that Renault don't
know about putting turbos into either sports cars or their road cars.

Regards,
Steve


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## Steve Burnett

German cars are not that well built and seem to suffer from very high repair bills and plenty of design faults that pop up around the 4 to 5 years old time.
I've had 2 VW's, 3 BMW's, and 1 merc. The above is my experiance.

I hosently think Ford, Vauxhall etc etc offer better built cars but they use cheaper materials and are then seen as a cheap car.

I also think simplicity has a lot to do with it. More stuff on a car, the more can go wrong with it.

I'll stick with my BMW's though, just like them, that's all.
Hate all VAG cars!!!


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## Brooklands

I have a few issues with German cars. I do not dispute they are well built but, as far I'm concerned the following is true for me;

1. Although the performance models are great, most are just plain dull and drab places to be.
2. I really don't wish to be associated with some of the demographic who either aspire to or actually own some German cars. 
3. They leave me cold. There something so clinical about them - no character at all!
4. They are soooo common. Remember more 3 series are sold than Mondeos each yr.


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## Derekh929

Steve Burnett said:


> German cars are not that well built and seem to suffer from very high repair bills and plenty of design faults that pop up around the 4 to 5 years old time.
> I've had 2 VW's, 3 BMW's, and 1 merc. The above is my experiance.
> 
> I hosently think Ford, Vauxhall etc etc offer better built cars but they use cheaper materials and are then seen as a cheap car.
> 
> I also think simplicity has a lot to do with it. More stuff on a car, the more can go wrong with it.
> 
> I'll stick with my BMW's though, just like them, that's all.
> Hate all VAG cars!!!


Well have you an F30 or F31 and what model:thumb: im looking at your avatar


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## Derekh929

Brooklands said:


> I have a few issues with German cars. I do not dispute they are well built but, as far I'm concerned the following is true for me;
> 
> 1. Although the performance models are great, most are just plain dull and drab places to be.
> 2. I really don't wish to be associated with some of the demographic who either aspire to or actually own some German cars.
> 3. They leave me cold. There something so clinical about them - no character at all!
> 4. They are soooo common. Remember more 3 series are sold than Mondeos each yr.


The 3 Series is common as it has been the one to beat for many years simples, ford are building good cars imho know and the old focus was a good car as well.
This is the whole thing people are bypassing great car options by saying they don't want to be associated with some of the demographics who aspire to or actually own some German cars, like you quoted do you not get arrogant poor drivers with attitude problems in other brands:lol:
Can you explain what are the type of people in German cars , that are not present in others?

Clinical and engineering, and offcourse good marketing, is what sells cars is some segments and the makers are scared to be to radical with a model that pays the most into the pot, you only tweak them.

Owning an everyday car is not all about character , as we win't to get to work on time, we could all run alfa's TVR, and the likes but that a completely different car buying debate, or why not E Type or Classic Mini, the safety and the weight and pedestrian safety , and platform sharing and component sharing to cut costs and make profit for share holders has made cars more dull in some respects, but having 4 generations of 3 series I have to say the current is the best I have had, but I still have special place for the e30


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## Kirkyworld

I buy what car I want I am not driven by economy or fuel as I do few miles. I am a badge snob wouldn't ever buy a skoda however I have had a couple of Hyundai's, don't like french cars much (with a few exceptions) Never had car finance so only buy what I can afford to pay cash for.


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## cbr6fs

What makes me laugh is how people group cars by some weak link to geographical location.

It's not like all BMW's are made in Germany, just like all Toyota's aren't made in Japan.
It's not even like BMW use only German designers or Toyota only Japanese ones.

You've then got folks calling electrics in French cars yet there is not a single electrical part on any production car that's produced by the factory.

Fact is, anyone that generalises about cars be it grouping them into some stupid country group or even a certain brand knows absolutely nothing what-so-ever about cars.

I spent the best part of 2 years looking for a E46 M3.
Must have looked at over 50 cars over that time and i was unable to find 1 single car that didn't have problems, be it cracked rear chassis, vanos problems or other smaller problems.
In the end i gave up and decided that although the E46 is a great drivers car it's design and build is terrible.
Odd thing is only a few months ago we were looking at none M3 E46's for a mate and most were in great condition.

So even even different versions of the same model can be good or bad.


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## Kerr

Derekh929 said:


> The 3 Series is common as it has been the one to beat for many years simples, ford are building good cars imho know and the old focus was a good car as well.
> This is the whole thing people are bypassing great car options by saying they don't want to be associated with some of the demographics who aspire to or actually own some German cars, like you quoted do you not get arrogant poor drivers with attitude problems in other brands:lol:
> Can you explain what are the type of people in German cars , that are not present in others?
> 
> Clinical and engineering, and offcourse good marketing, is what sells cars is some segments and the makers are scared to be to radical with a model that pays the most into the pot, you only tweak them.
> 
> Owning an everyday car is not all about character , as we win't to get to work on time, we could all run alfa's TVR, and the likes but that a completely different car buying debate, or why not E Type or Classic Mini, the safety and the weight and pedestrian safety , and platform sharing and component sharing to cut costs and make profit for share holders has made cars more dull in some respects, but having 4 generations of 3 series I have to say the current is the best I have had, but I still have special place for the e30


I find it amusing when people like Brooklands make comments like that. It is just laughable ignorance.

Having digs at BMW drivers whilst displaying ignorance and arrogance kind of backfires as I guess that's his gripe with BMW drivers.


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## Steve Burnett

Derekh929 said:


> Well have you an F30 or F31 and what model:thumb: im looking at your avatar


Just now I've an E87 120d M Sport and an E70 30d Msport.

Nothing interesting but both nice to drive.


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## nichol4s

Kerr said:


> I find it amusing when people like Brooklands make comments like that. It is just laughable ignorance.
> 
> Having digs at BMW drivers whilst displaying ignorance and arrogance kind of backfires as I guess that's his gripe with BMW drivers.


Most BMW drivers are arrogant sods

I miss mine :lol:


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## Davide82

Brooklands said:


> I have a few issues with German cars. I do not dispute they are well built but, as far I'm concerned the following is true for me;
> 
> 1. Although the performance models are great, most are just plain dull and drab places to be.
> 2. I really don't wish to be associated with some of the demographic who either aspire to or actually own some German cars.
> 3. They leave me cold. There something so clinical about them - no character at all!
> 4. They are soooo common. Remember more 3 series are sold than Mondeos each yr.


(Sorry, thought I'd play up to my stereotype)

Now as a serious comment;
I pick my cars based on test drives and pricing of the second Hand market - I never go brand new

If I can get a 40k car, 3 years old for 10k, sounds like a bargain to me no matter what badge it has on it

I've had loads of different makes and I would say my BM is the best I've had yet in terms of build quality and fun to drive


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## Derekh929

Brooklands we need an explanation why drivers of non German cars have no arrogance and all this bad stuff, as this may help in making me a better question if I have a German & Spaniard in the Garage what camp am I in? shhhh don't tell my Seat is German I look onto a main road from my office and the make I see being driven like it was stolen is mostly a Jap , Honda:doublesho and a couple of souped up Vax :doublesho something is wrong they are not German better tell these fools to get into German cars as they are giving these brands a bad name:doublesho, its not the drivers it people perception that they think they are better than them as they have a German car some shallow people might think that, I love to see people work hard and reward there self with a car they won't to own as they like it's looks its ability and dare I say it the brand.


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## Brooklands

To be fair, I did say 'some' of the demographic, and having re-read my post to make sure, I didn't use the word arrogant.............I didn't use any word at all in fact.......


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## Brooklands

Kerr said:


> I find it amusing when people like Brooklands make comments like that. It is just laughable ignorance.
> 
> Having digs at BMW drivers whilst displaying ignorance and arrogance kind of backfires as I guess that's his gripe with BMW drivers.


I take exception to being called 'ignorant' - have the decency to re-read my post please. I said it was my opinion - not stating a universal truth - it is an objective point of view, which cannot be measured. My opinion as a consequence is no more or less accurate than anyone else it is simply a case of horses for courses, nothing more.


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## Derekh929

Brooklands said:


> To be fair, I did say 'some' of the demographic, and having re-read my post to make sure, I didn't use the word arrogant.............I didn't use any word at all in fact.......


ok i added that in as most that have decieded they don't like German cars without testing them against others that they want to buy, dull as dish water ? basic golf , BMW, Audi , Merc yes some are but what would you buy in stead of these if you bought new for example in the Executive salon category , what would you buy with your money and why? you need to back this up with facts, are there more poor drivers people that think they are better than someone in a Ford or pug? i treat all equally , it's just i currently think the best Estate car for good handling and performance looks and also cost effective running costs and also looks happens to be the BMW 330d M Sport Touring even Clarkson and May and Hammond said it was 99% perfect in 320d guise, that may be a bad thing.

I test drove evaluated looked at discounts and alot of stuff, Why did i not buy a Mondeo ? you tell me whats good about it?, i like ford as a Brand and they build some good metal imho but there is facts like when my BMW was 2 years out of warranty and had a fault when i questioned the part should have lasted the life of the car they agreed and paid 80% of the bill.
Similar with new 306d pug, the car came with wrong body kit on it nobbody noticed on pDI:doublesho multiple problems as fogged of all the time could not care less, how would aspire to that


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## 182_Blue

If i have to edit anymore comments due to the breaking of forum rules then i will be closing the thread.


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## Brooklands

I take on board your comments, but like I said it is all subjective - we choose to drive, what we drive because in part there is something about the brand that appeals - for me VAG and BMWs fail to attract me - as I said this is a subjective opinion, I am not prenting to hold the universal truth!


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## Clark @ PB

We just got the wife a new Kia Sportage as we're expecting our first child in April and needed something more practical than her mini. 

We got an ex demonstrator with 4K miles on the clock with all the gadgets (bluetooth, parking sensors, full panoramic roof, heated leather seats front and back, 18's, side steps, auto lights etc etc) for exactly the same as her mini was costing per month plus we get a 7 year warranty. 

It's some amount of car for the money and despite the fact the wife was dead against a KIA to begin with purely because of the badge (I detailed one a year or two ago and thought it was pretty smart so had been going on about them ever since! ) she now loves it.

If it weren't for the fact that my current daily driver owes me nothing I'd be tempted by one myself :lol:


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## Brooklands

Shaun said:


> If i have to edit anymore comments due to the breaking of forum rules then i will be closing the thread.


Have I broken any? (serious question)?


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## Blackmondie

saying all BMW drivers are the same is like claiming all black people are gangsters... 
I bought my BMW after driving a golf, lots of fords ( from fiesta, to escort to mondeo) and even citroen (shame on me), because it is reliable and most of all, it's a very tough build car. M8 of mine was hit in the drivers side by a bus at serious speed and was just able to walk out of it ( by the passengers door). I saw then how strong the chassis was build with reinforcements. Then my brother had a front crash with another car. His was scratches and the bumper was broken, but that's it because of the steel bar behind it. the other car had to be towed, because the nose was half gone and wheels didn't turn anymore. 
My ford, well, that was just like a tin plate... look at it wrong and it was dented...
So with the coming of my son, I decided I wanted a BMW just for safety for my son and wife!


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## Brooklands

Blackmondie said:


> saying all BMW drivers are the same is like claiming all black people are gangsters...
> I bought my BMW after driving a golf, lots of fords ( from fiesta, to escort to mondeo) and even citroen (shame on me), because it is reliable and most of all, it's a very tough build car. M8 of mine was hit in the drivers side by a bus at serious speed and was just able to walk out of it ( by the passengers door). I saw then how strong the chassis was build with reinforcements. Then my brother had a front crash with another car. His was scratches and the bumper was broken, but that's it because of the steel bar behind it. the other car had to be towed, because the nose was half gone and wheels didn't turn anymore.
> My ford, well, that was just like a tin plate... look at it wrong and it was dented...
> So with the coming of my son, I decided I wanted a BMW just for safety for my son and wife!


This is one of the reasons I run Saabs!


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## Kerr

Brooklands said:


> I take exception to being called 'ignorant' - have the decency to re-read my post please. I said it was my opinion - not stating a universal truth - it is an objective point of view, which cannot be measured. My opinion as a consequence is no more or less accurate than anyone else it is simply a case of horses for courses, nothing more.


I have re-read your post and it still smacks of ignorance to me. That's my opinion.

You've singled out "some" of the German car owners when it doesn't affect the majority. You could make the exact statement about any brand or nationality of cars.

So in singling out the German car owners is indeed ignorant to the big picture and rather unfair.

As I said earlier in this thread, brand snobbery does exist. However I think brand hate is far stronger.


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## Brooklands

I might add that I have run a number of German cars and each has left me a little underwhelmed - put simply, I prefer other cars. I think we should agree to disagree. Life is full of diversity and difference and that is what makes life great!


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## Derekh929

Clark @ PB said:


> We just got the wife a new Kia Sportage as we're expecting our first child in April and needed something more practical than her mini.
> 
> We got an ex demonstrator with 4K miles on the clock with all the gadgets (bluetooth, parking sensors, full panoramic roof, heated leather seats front and back, 18's, side steps, auto lights etc etc) for exactly the same as her mini was costing per month plus we get a 7 year warranty.
> 
> It's some amount of car for the money and despite the fact the wife was dead against a KIA to begin with purely because of the badge (I detailed one a year or two ago and thought it was pretty smart so had been going on about them ever since! ) she now loves it.
> 
> If it weren't for the fact that my current daily driver owes me nothing I'd be tempted by one myself :lol:


Congrants on the arrival due:thumb: , and that's senmsible , but i have seen many buy a mini with young family then sell it soon after saying ots no good for buggy:doublesho and has no room:doublesho do you not think about this when you buy it?
Thats the thing the Koreans are no fool with 7 year warranty and better build and spec, and are taking sum big scalps from other brands and rightly so, i still cant get my head round the KIA or Hyundai , but you can't argue they have uped there game big time and are giving the customer what they want, very sensible buying with no badge snobbery:thumb:


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## Derekh929

Shaun said:


> If i have to edit anymore comments due to the breaking of forum rules then i will be closing the thread.


Yes keep it clean guy's i don't want another closure:thumb:


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## Derekh929

Brooklands said:


> I might add that I have run a number of German cars and each has left me a little underwhelmed - put simply, I prefer other cars. I think we should agree to disagree. Life is full of diversity and difference and that is what makes life great!


Guys take it easy on Brooklands , so what german cars did you have we can see some reasons coming out from your comments better to come out for a start as brand loyalty is very strong on hear like wolves:thumb:

So you like Swedish metal , so where is SAAB know? what went wrong? they built cars that only attracted a small niche following with a certian type of buyer? the product was not good enough quality handling and drive train? or the sepent to much on trying to make it to different? or to much spent on saftey without marketing? or a bit of them all.
It is no good being clever if it puts you out of business that just stupid.
Look at VAG during the credit crunch , BMW , Porsche, etc and what happened to big american car makers that did not move with the times platform share tech share joint projects to cut down on R&D the most important part of any car manafactures

Thats my honest take


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