# Should winter tyres be mandatory in the UK



## mart.

As the title say. 

Should they be mandatory in the UK for November -March ? 

They perform better in Snow, ice, rain at temps below 7c. 

The extra cost's would be offset by the lower wear on summer tyres. 

Snow days like today cost the £500million! 


Discuss


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## uruk hai

Given the way I saw some people driving this morning I doubt they would make much difference, bad and dangerous driving will still be that regardless of tyre type !


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## shakysco

I live in the Scottish highland and every year we have really bad snow , so far this winter has been good thou  I've never needed a winter tyre and prob never will ,its how you drive in the snow and what you drive ,not about the tyres really ....


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## BoroDave74

Absolutely agree, it's driving skill, or lack of it, rather than tyres. £400 for four tyres plus fit and remove for a couple of days of snow a year? Sounds a great idea if you're a tyre manufacturer or fitter.


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## Dift

Logistically it will never happen. Lots of people can't even make sure their normal tyres are in a suitable condition.

Where would people store these tyres in the summer? I fear you give the general public too much credit.

Wether we need them is another question.


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## possul

I've never used winter tyres in the 5 years I've been driving.
I slow down, use no sudden movements (steering accelaration or braking), lots of space in front, hardly ever brake and use the engine to slow me down in lower gears to avoid skidding
I still see people driving like normal with no due care and attention and just laugh.


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## RichardM

I had no problem today with performance summer tyres, just was very careful.


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## mart.

BoroDave74 said:


> Absolutely agree, it's driving skill, or lack of it, rather than tyres. £400 for four tyres plus fit and remove for a couple of days of snow a year? Sounds a great idea if you're a tyre manufacturer or fitter.


The exact response I thought would happen.

It's not just for a few days of snow. Its the days under 7c, cold rain, ice.

Using winter tyre's makes a massive difference in all those condition's.


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## RisingPower

mart. said:


> The exact response I thought would happen.
> 
> It's not just for a few days of snow. Its the days under 7c, cold rain, ice.
> 
> Using winter tyre's makes a massive difference in all those condition's.


This isn't sweden, finland or any of the colder countries, i'm sure it would be a good money spinner for tyre companies though.


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## danwel

It's not the tyres IMO its about driving to the conditions


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## gav1513

winter tyres or no winter tyres drive like a muppet your still gonna bin it into a ditch or someone else, people need to be taught how to drive in snow not just say put winter tyres on and youll be fine!


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## Captain Pugwash

only thing I would say is ..if people have winter tyres, they will then get it in to their head oh I am alright and bash on like the are invincible...bit like those with the 4x4

When ABS started getting fitted I remember something about a study they did saying becasue of the ABS people drove faster as they thought they could brake better with the ABS


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## willwander

No. Because there are already enough laws, rules, regulations and people telling me what to do without introducing another.


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## VXR220

My girlfriends always fits her winter tyres December time,and they are great.only problem you get is so many other people do not use them so she gets stuck behind cars and drivers who haven't got a clue.also the stopping distance is great with them,but you do worry that someone behind with sh1te tyres are gonna try getting in the boot when you have to stop sharpe.


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## VXR220

RisingPower said:


> This isn't sweden, finland or any of the colder countries, i'm sure it would be a good money spinner for tyre companies though.


Not exactly right IMO,if you have winter and summer tyres then each set will take twice as long to wear out?so doesn't cost any more expense in the long run?winter tyres are a softer compound so they don't go rock hard and stop gripping in cold conditions like summer tyres do in winter?


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## Avanti

VXR220 said:


> Not exactly right IMO,*if you have winter and summer tyres then each set will take twice as long to wear out?*so doesn't cost any more expense in the long run?winter tyres are a softer compound so they don't go rock hard and stop gripping in cold conditions like summer tyres do in winter?


Not exactly, a tyre sitting around doing nowt will still 'break down' over time. Like a use by date


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## Hasan1

mart. said:


> As the title say.
> 
> Should they be mandatory in the UK for November -March ?
> 
> They perform better in Snow, ice, rain at temps below 7c.
> 
> The extra cost's would be offset by the lower wear on summer tyres.
> 
> Snow days like today cost the £500million!
> 
> Discuss


Two side to everything your saying from November to march as an example. In London its only now just started to go below 7c


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## spursfan

possul said:


> I've never used winter tyres in the 5 years I've been driving.
> I slow down, use no sudden movements (steering accelaration or braking), lots of space in front, hardly ever brake and use the engine to slow me down in lower gears to avoid skidding
> I still see people driving like normal with no due care and attention and just laugh.


You ever used winter tyres? Thought not. 
I imagine all the owners of the cars i saw today that were abandoned all thought like you, what great drivers they are but all walking home because their cars cant get up the slopes and hills around High Wycombe, they cant get round the idea that winter tyres actually make a huge difference to grip.
You carry on thinking that your summer tyres and superb driving skills will get you around in the snow and up hills without any problems.:thumb:


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## Tom H

I have driven a number of customers cars over the past few days and today in the snow, one of these cars drove fantastic, gripped better and had more traction when pulling away, I found out they were winter tyres when I got back to my unit, yes I agree that some people will think that as their tyres say "winter" that they will suddenly be able to drive faster and break harder, that is just reality of how some people think but for added safety they are fantastic, and even the very best drivers who may say they are "not needed" will get caught out at some point or need a bit extra grip. Make a legal requirement - maybe not but an advisory with a bit of education when bought then a fantastic idea. I will be getting some over the next couple of days as I was a 'non believer' before I drove the car today and its changed my view!


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## spursfan

RisingPower said:


> This isn't sweden, finland or any of the colder countries, i'm sure it would be a good money spinner for tyre companies though.


Or maybe a good use of the clutch, driving to the conditions, leaving a reasonable distance between you and the car in front will get you up the hill to where you live:lol: get real mate..
Winter tyres make a massive difference to grip, just people like you think their great driving skills will see them through this weather...
just like all the abandoned cars i saw today:lol:


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## spursfan

Tom H said:


> I have driven a number of customers cars over the past few days and today in the snow, one of these cars drove fantastic, gripped better and had more traction when pulling away, I found out they were winter tyres when I got back to my unit, yes I agree that some people will think that as their tyres say "winter" that they will suddenly be able to drive faster and break harder, that is just reality of how some people think but for added safety they are fantastic, and even the very best drivers who may say they are "not needed" will get caught out at some point or need a bit extra grip. Make a legal requirement - maybe not but an advisory with a bit of education when bought then a fantastic idea. I will be getting some over the next couple of days as I was a 'non believer' before I drove the car today and its changed my view!


Tom, as you say, the grip is so different to summer tyres, night and day, but you cant preach to the people who think they are gods gift behind a wheel.:lol:
There's a very good reason why Poland and places nearby make it compulsory to use them..they actually do grip better in snow and icy conditions, try the goodyear ultragrip 8's , they are awesome, got mine for £400 from Mytyres...195/65/R15

Kev


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## Ross

Winters tyres do make a difference but if you dont know how to drive in snow you may as well not bother.


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## mirra_finish

Well, I drive a rear wheel drive vehicle, and in the hilly conditions where I live, today's snow made it undriveable. I ended up going home (well almost home, I parked about 1/4 ml away, as I couldn't do the slope up to our house) and borrowing my wife's CRV. No problem.

How many respondents here drive FWD, AWD or 4WD?

Winter tyres would've made a difference to ME today, but it has to be one in, all in. It'd be no use to me having loads of grip if the person in front or behind is sliding all over the place.


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## spursfan

Captain Pugwash said:


> only thing I would say is ..if people have winter tyres, they will then get it in to their head oh I am alright and bash on like the are invincible...bit like those with the 4x4
> 
> When ABS started getting fitted I remember something about a study they did saying becasue of the ABS people drove faster as they thought they could brake better with the ABS


Yeah, you're dead right, i hit 90mph in the snow today and that was round bends, up hills etc..in fact i was thinking i was invincible:lol::lol:
Now, back to reality, no, you dont get that feeling about being invincible, maybe a bit smug as i pass people like you wheel spinning and going nowhere fast, give them a try, what have you got to lose??


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## spursfan

Ross said:


> Winters tyres do make a difference but if you dont know how to drive in snow you may as well not bother.


That's true Ross, but the only way to learn is through years of driving and getting that experience behind you.
Once you have that experience it still does not mean you can defy the laws of physics and gravity though, but having winter tyres on made a huge difference to me today.
There was 40-50 stranded cars i saw today, one bloke this evening was trying to get up the hill to my estate, he managed about 10 yards and then was spinning and going sideways, i stopped and let him have his 5 mins worth of frantic wheel spinning in his nissan 360z and let slide down and park up, he came up to me and said " you cant get up there mate, would'nt bother if i were you" i then disappeared up the hill without any problems at all, would loved to have seen his face

Kev


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## possul

spursfan said:


> You ever used winter tyres? Thought not.
> I imagine all the owners of the cars i saw today that were abandoned all thought like you, what great drivers they are but all walking home because their cars cant get up the slopes and hills around High Wycombe, they cant get round the idea that winter tyres actually make a huge difference to grip.
> You carry on thinking that your summer tyres and superb driving skills will get you around in the snow and up hills without any problems.:thumb:


I drive cars regularly with winter tyres during these months and in the summer.
No where In my post did I say I was a great driver.
Until I get stuck I will never buy winter tyres as I have never needed them as In my previous post I drove differently when there is snow as a precaution.
I have never had a problem getting up or down hills as with correct speed and proper throttle response I manage just fine. People make the assumption that driving up a hill slowly is the best way, thus getting stuck or sliding down

Wind your neck in

What's next use them when ever the temperature gets below 7 degrees


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## mart.

Well they do perform better than summer tyres below 7c.


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## Ross

The Legacy with its brilliant AWD system is unstoppable in the snow with winter tyres on,its pretty good with the summers on too:thumb:


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## possul

No doubt, but if your driving sensibly and with common sense about current road conditions then you will be fine. I never drive past my capabilities and always dependent on road conditions
Unless another vehicle is coming at you and you don't have a chance


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## possul

Ross said:


> The Legacy with its brilliant AWD system is unstoppable in the snow with winter tyres on,its pretty good with the summers on too:thumb:


They are permanent AWD aren't they


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## Buck

I've had winter tyres/wheels on for the last two winters and as mentioned, they improvement in grip at low temperature is impressive and reassuring.

In snow they are in a different league.

My neighbour left his car on the drive today as he couldn't get up our hill - I was out before him this morning and had no issues.

We can all talk about driving skills etc. but why wouldn't you want something that improves your safety and if, for example, you are driving along and _somebody else_ loses control, you have more grip and opportunity to react and manoeuvre out of the way etc.?


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## Mark Chandler

The tyres were knackered on my V40 so stuck a set of Bridgestone winter tyres on in November, transformed the car but the old ones were mismatched cheap tyres anyway as on when bought.

It does however seem very good in the snow.

I do have a lot of experience with range rovers and land rovers and can state categorically that correct tyres for the conditions make a huge difference, modern 4x4 cars with low profile tyres will still struggle when a properly equipped 2 wheel drive car will romp home.

I will keep these tyres all year, I expect the car will only do 6000 p.a. so they will disappear faster but still outlive the car I expect.


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## possul

I should probably say I use my car for work and thats it. I choose not to drive and would walk anywhere I needed to go when it's snowing.
I would have to spend around £400 for tyres that would be used on a Monday and Friday for work, maybe something at the weekend but all main roads would be fairly clear.
They would be perished and cracked before I got anywhere near 5mm tread, rendering the tyre useless anyway, I also don't have £400!


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## possul

Mark Chandler said:


> The tyres were knackered on my V40 so stuck a set of Bridgestone winter tyres on in November, transformed the car but the old ones were mismatched cheap tyres anyway as on when bought.
> 
> It does however seem very good in the snow.
> 
> I do have a lot of experience with range rovers and land rovers and can state categorically that correct tyres for the conditions make a huge difference, modern 4x4 cars with low profile tyres will still struggle when a properly equipped 2 wheel drive car will romp home.
> 
> I will keep these tyres all year, I expect the car will only do 6000 p.a. so they will disappear faster but still outlive the car I expect.


Good point, with the little mileage I do a winter set may be a all round better option as long as they won't wear to quickly in the summer

Does anybody use them all year round?
Wear? Road noise?


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## mart.

possul said:


> I should probably say I use my car for work and thats it. I choose not to drive and would walk anywhere I needed to go when it's snowing.
> I would have to spend around £400 for tyres that would be used on a Monday and Friday for work, maybe something at the weekend but all main roads would be fairly clear.
> They would be perished and cracked before I got anywhere near 5mm tread, rendering the tyre useless anyway, I also don't have £400!


Again you seem to just refer to snow.

The cost of the winter tyres is offset by reduced wear on the summer tyres.

The winter tyres last a good few year's.

If want to use them all year if doing low millage you could go for an All season tyre.


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## Buck

In summer, winter tyres are slightly noiser and will wear more quickly due to the softer compound but this is marginal in comparison to many other tyres (summer) that are also softer compounds.

The initial outlay the first year on the tyres/wheels is the bit that hurts but it was good to know that when November came and I swapped the wheels over (at no cost) that I had improved my safety, albeit marginally and when the bad weather came, I would still be mobile.


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## possul

As long as there is no snow/compacted snow I would probably drive regardless of weather


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## spursfan

possul said:


> I drive cars regularly with winter tyres during these months and in the summer.
> No where In my post did I say I was a great driver.
> Until I get stuck I will never buy winter tyres as I have never needed them as In my previous post I drove differently when there is snow as a precaution.
> I have never had a problem getting up or down hills as with correct speed and proper throttle response I manage just fine. People make the assumption that driving up a hill slowly is the best way, thus getting stuck or sliding down
> 
> Wind your neck in
> 
> What's next use them when ever the temperature gets below 7 degrees


All 5 years of experience:lol:
Your response is a joke mate, when you come up with stuff like like
" I've never used winter tyres in the 5 years I've been driving.
I slow down, use no sudden movements (steering accelaration or braking), lots of space in front, hardly ever brake and use the engine to slow me down in lower gears to avoid skidding
I still see people driving like normal with no due care and attention and just laugh." 
I laugh my head off, really i do, again, one of those that refuse to accept that winter tyres are far better than summer tyres, now wind you neck in:lol:


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## Buck

mart. makes a really good point. My summer tyres have lasted another year in time as they spent 6 months tucked up in the garage. I'll probably replace the front two when I swap the winters back in April time but otherwise I'd have had to fork out £250 or so for new tyres last year.


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## lmorris

Driving skill has very little to do with it when driving in snow, the simple fact is the only thing in contact with the ground is the tyre. Summer tyres in snow are useless, its has been proven many times over and over again that winter tyres out perform summer with ease in temperatures below 7c 
I have fitted winter tyres for the past 5 years and never gotten stuck, its only the drivers on the roads with there summer tyres thinking they can defy the laws of physics who cause the RTC'S and traffic jams. It should be law that ALL vehicles be fitted with winter tyres, maybe then the country would not grind to a halt at the first sign of snow.


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## Ross

possul said:


> They are permanent AWD aren't they


Yes the simplest and most effective AWD around. I remember stopping on a really steep hill last year that was covered in snow and it just set off again with no problem at all.


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## possul

spursfan said:


> All 5 years of experience:lol:
> Your response is a joke mate, when you come up with stuff like like
> " I've never used winter tyres in the 5 years I've been driving.
> I slow down, use no sudden movements (steering accelaration or braking), lots of space in front, hardly ever brake and use the engine to slow me down in lower gears to avoid skidding
> I still see people driving like normal with no due care and attention and just laugh."
> I laugh my head off, really i do, again, one of those that refuse to accept that winter tyres are far better than summer tyres, now wind you neck in:lol:


I have never said winter tyres are not better than summer tyres, and I fully accept they ARE better in wet/snow/sleet/ cold conditions

I don't understand why you are so outraged.
I'm not the only person out there that drives without winter tyres without problems. Are these all in the wrong also?

I take precautions like every other sensible driver out there. If I had said I still drive at 30mph with no problems then yes, have a go but I don't.


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## NeilG40

Another benefit I've noticed on my Vredenstein Snowtrac 3's is that they keep their black colour and don't go grey like summer tyres, even without any tyre dressing on.:lol:


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## Darlofan

Well I went out today in this hilly part of North Wales where gritters don't go with my Set of budget summer types(£200 for4) and didn't have a problem. That'll probably scare a lot of people to death, especially as I took the kids as well to go sledging. So shoot me down now for being so irresponsible and stupid but hey I drove sensibly, kept the car moving steadily, no heavy braking and we got there and back just fine. 
Not many places in this country have weather that require Winter tyres.


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## Ross

Driving skill has a lot to do with it,how many times have you seen somebody sitting spinning up the tyres on the snow hoping to go somewhere when all they are doing is polishing up the surface. If they eased off the throttle and let the car crawl they will get going.


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## lmorris

If they put a set of winter tyres on they would not spin in the first place :thumb:


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## Darlofan

lmorris said:


> If they put a set of winter tyres on they would not spin in the first place :thumb:


They would because they think floor it and it'll move. Once tread is full of compacted snow,ice that's it the tyre will act like any other. Watched a4wd rr spinning wheels today for that same reason.


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## Ross

It does not matter if they have winter tyres on or not if they can't drive according to the weather conditions it's pointless.


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## spursfan

possul said:


> I have never said winter tyres are not better than summer tyres, and I fully accept they ARE better in wet/snow/sleet/ cold conditions
> 
> I don't understand why you are so outraged.
> I'm not the only person out there that drives without winter tyres without problems. Are these all in the wrong also?
> 
> I take precautions like every other sensible driver out there. If I had said I still drive at 30mph with no problems then yes, have a go but I don't.


Not outraged as such, just wonder why so many people refuse to admit that maybe, just maybe, they may actually save your life one day, and all for the sake of £400 ish. dont matter how good your driving skills are, summer tyres will not provide as good a grip as winter tyres...FACT, something to think of when your family get in the car:thumb:


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## spursfan

Darlofan said:


> Well I went out today in this hilly part of North Wales where gritters don't go with my Set of budget summer types(£200 for4) and didn't have a problem. That'll probably scare a lot of people to death, especially as I took the kids as well to go sledging. So shoot me down now for being so irresponsible and stupid but hey I drove sensibly, kept the car moving steadily, no heavy braking and we got there and back just fine.
> Not many places in this country have weather that require Winter tyres.


:lol:
try telling most of the country that, you not been watching the news today:lol:


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## possul

spursfan said:


> Not outraged as such, just wonder why so many people refuse to admit that maybe, just maybe, they may actually save your life one day, and all for the sake of £400 ish. dont matter how good your driving skills are, summer tyres will not provide as good a grip as winter tyres...FACT, something to think of when your family get in the car:thumb:


I'm not doubting that for a second chap, I know they are better
Just been checking out some video reviews and comparisons.
Tbh £400 is a lot of money for me, I'm not well off at all.
I try to avoid going in the car as said during these times though
:thumb:


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## CChris

This is simple, most of Europe switch because there is a distinct advantage to using winter tyres in the wet and snow.

There is a YouTube video where a Ford Focus can drive up the slop at Tamworth snow dome, and brake on the way down.

Summer tyres wear faster at lower temperatures, and winter tyres are normally cheaper that summer tyres because winter tyres tend to be higher profile.

I have them on my car since November, 

Chris.


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## spursfan

Darlofan said:


> They would because they think floor it and it'll move. Once tread is full of compacted snow,ice that's it the tyre will act like any other. Watched a4wd rr spinning wheels today for that same reason.


you are seriously deluded mate:lol: have a look on some websites and find o
ut how a winter tyre is designed to work and then repost.


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## lmorris

Darlofan said:


> Once tread is full of compacted snow,ice that's it the tyre will act like any other.
> 
> Sorry mate thats where you are wrong and it shows how little you know about the differance between winter tyres and summer tyres. Winter tyres have cuts in them called Snipes they are designed to dig into the snow.
> Take a look
> 
> http://www.carmagazine.co.uk/Commun...e-science-of-winter-tyres-how-they-work-2012/


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## Darlofan

spursfan said:


> :lol:
> try telling most of the country that, you not been watching the news today:lol:


Funny that, yeah I've just watched bc news and thought look at all those drivers stuck. Everyone of them spinning the wheels furiously with hardly any snow on the road. If they knew to change from 1st to 2nd and accelerate gently, rocking the car on the clutch if needed they'd soon be on their way.


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## CChris

One big problem with winter tyres in this country is the drastic difference between braking distance, and the possibility of a summer tyre car hitting you from behind.


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## Darlofan

lmorris said:


> Darlofan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Once tread is full of compacted snow,ice that's it the tyre will act like any other.
> 
> Sorry mate thats where you are wrong and it shows how little you know about the differance between winter tyres and summer tyres. Winter tyres have cuts in them called Snipes they are designed to dig into the snow.
> Take a look
> 
> http://www.carmagazine.co.uk/Commun...e-science-of-winter-tyres-how-they-work-2012/
> 
> How do winter tyres work? - YouTube
> 
> 
> 
> Wondered how long it would take before someone posted a video from someone trying to sell more tyres. I hope Inchcape Audi found lots of fools out there that believed we really have the weather over here to justify buying a new set of tyres that might be needed for a few days each year.
Click to expand...


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## lmorris

CChris said:


> One big problem with winter tyres in this country is the drastic difference between braking distance, and the possibility of a summer tyre car hitting you from behind.


If that happens it wont be your fault, and at least it wont be you sliding into the car in front !


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## spursfan

CChris said:


> One big problem with winter tyres in this country is the drastic difference between braking distance, and the possibility of a summer tyre car hitting you from behind.


Then i claim from him...sorted:thumb:


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## cheekymonkey

Ross said:


> It does not matter if they have winter tyres on or not if they can't drive according to the weather conditions it's pointless.


this sums it up for me, you give someone a 4x4 with winter tyres on, but not a clue how to drive in snow and they will get no where. driving skill is the main thing needed:thumb:


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## lmorris

Darlofan said:


> lmorris said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wondered how long it would take before someone posted a video from someone trying to sell more tyres. I hope Inchcape Audi found lots of fools out there that believed we really have the weather over here to justify buying a new set of tyres that might be needed for a few days each year.
> 
> 
> 
> Just goes to show you cant educate the stupid :wall:
Click to expand...


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## boyasaka

possul said:


> I've never used winter tyres in the 5 years I've been driving.
> I slow down, use no sudden movements (steering accelaration or braking), lots of space in front, hardly ever brake and use the engine to slow me down in lower gears to avoid skidding
> I still see people driving like normal with no due care and attention and just laugh.


Absolutly spot on, , accelarate very gently, , brake very gently, ,steer very gently keep your distance and ya sorted, i just drove 4 mile to my sons and roads werer horrendous no tarmac in sight just a couple inches of snow and i never wheel span once or locked brakes up yet at every single junction cars wheel spinning away and sliding up to junctions,


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## spursfan

Darlofan said:


> Funny that, yeah I've just watched bc news and thought look at all those drivers stuck. Everyone of them spinning the wheels furiously with hardly any snow on the road. If they knew to change from 1st to 2nd and accelerate gently, rocking the car on the clutch if needed they'd soon be on their way.


Blimey, that's amazing, all those drivers obviously had no idea how to drive or how to change from 1st to 2nd gear. driving standards these days are just shocking:lol:


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## cheekymonkey

spursfan said:


> Not outraged as such, just wonder why so many people refuse to admit that maybe, just maybe, they may actually save your life one day, and all for the sake of £400 ish. dont matter how good your driving skills are, summer tyres will not provide as good a grip as winter tyres...FACT, something to think of when your family get in the car:thumb:


although winter tyres can help what will help more than the tyres is learning the skills needed to drive in snow they will save your life more then what tyres you have on:thumb:


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## lmorris

At the end of the day its up to you if you want to have the best chance of getting to where you are going safely by fitting winter tyres. Like i have said before driving skill can not defy the laws of physics. One day all you drivers with summer tyres on WILL get stuck, and i have no drought that a car will drive past you with winter tyres on and you might just think i wish i had brought a set of them :thumb:


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## RisingPower

spursfan said:


> Or maybe a good use of the clutch, driving to the conditions, leaving a reasonable distance between you and the car in front will get you up the hill to where you live:lol: get real mate..
> Winter tyres make a massive difference to grip, just people like you think their great driving skills will see them through this weather...
> just like all the abandoned cars i saw today:lol:


They do make a difference, I just haven't had a need for them yet.

However, in colder countries like sweden, they're a necessity, not here for a couple of snow days and below 7 degree temps.

They won't save you and tbh the only time I needed them, the snow was so bloody thick it was scraping underneath the zed.

I'd sooner buy a jeep than winter tyres.


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## CChris

I would like to know how many people posting "no need for winter tyres" comments have ever driven a car in the wet/snow with winter tyres?

I have driven both, and would not dream of driving without them.


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## andy monty

Darlofan said:


> They would because they think floor it and it'll move. *Once tread is full of compacted snow*,ice that's it the tyre will act like any other. Watched a4wd rr spinning wheels today for that same reason.


Thats what snow tyres need to be effective the sipes fill with snow as they are compressed by the weight of the car in the contact patch this grips the snow on the ground equalling grip...... (think of rolling a big snow ball picking up more snow)

once clear of the contact patch the sipe opens up and centrifugal force flings the collected snow away...... as it goes round again the leading edge picks up fresh snow in the sipes compresses it by the weight of the car grips the snow.... and so on ............


----------



## RisingPower

VXR220 said:


> Not exactly right IMO,if you have winter and summer tyres then each set will take twice as long to wear out?so doesn't cost any more expense in the long run?winter tyres are a softer compound so they don't go rock hard and stop gripping in cold conditions like summer tyres do in winter?


Winter tyres cost considerably more and I'm not even sure you can get them in the sizes I have currently.


----------



## lmorris

RisingPower said:


> Winter tyres cost considerably more and I'm not even sure you can get them in the sizes I have currently.


What size are your tyres ?


----------



## CChris

RisingPower said:


> Winter tyres cost considerably more and I'm not even sure you can get them in the sizes I have currently.


Errr

My car has 235/35r18 summer run flats £245 ish, and 215/55r16 winter run flats £130 ish.

Summer tyres ware faster in cold temperatures, so how can they be more expensive?

Winter steel wheel cost £30 ish?


----------



## cheekymonkey

CChris said:


> I would like to know how many people posting "no need for winter tyres" comments have ever driven a car in the wet/snow with winter tyres?
> 
> I have driven both, and would not dream of driving without them.


i have although there was a slight difference it doesn't justify the outlay for a couple of days of snow


----------



## spursfan

cheekymonkey said:


> although winter tyres can help what will hell more than the tyres is learning the skills needed to drive in snow they will save your life more then what tyres you have on:thumb:


Far better to drive with the right equipment for the conditions, that way you will learn skills without falling into ditches.:thumb:
starting out driving in the snow is pretty daunting, it's only as the years go by that you get that experience, unless you're in or were in the forces, then it's free:thumb:


----------



## lmorris

cheekymonkey said:


> i have although there was a slight difference it doesn't justify the outlay for a couple of days of snow


You are missing the point mate they are not just for the snow they work better than summer tyres at temps below 7c, and you can say we don't get below 7c for only a few days.


----------



## andy monty

RisingPower said:


> Winter tyres cost considerably more and I'm not even sure you can get them in the sizes I have currently.


do they 

going on this (what my last car run for a direct side by side:

OEM

http://www.mytyres.co.uk/cgi-bin/rs..._pro_Seite=15&Transport=P&dsco=110&sowigan=So

Winter......

http://www.mytyres.co.uk/cgi-bin/rs..._pro_Seite=20&Transport=P&dsco=110&sowigan=Wi

Its even better to buy your winters in the late spring (strangely they capitalise on the fact its winter and people suddenly want to buy them) 

Also this EEC tyre grip rating what a load of tosh.... in my experience i got about 2mpg more using the winters.... and the stopping distance in the wet was better with the winters... the B250's didnt like rain.....


----------



## RisingPower

lmorris said:


> What size are your tyres ?


255/35/19 at the front, 285/35/19 at the rear.

Iirc they were around double the price of summer tyres on the 18s, who knows if they come in 285s on 19s.

Ok, they start at around 300ish in 285.


----------



## Darlofan

spursfan said:


> Blimey, that's amazing, all those drivers obviously had no idea how to drive or how to change from 1st to 2nd gear. driving standards these days are just shocking:lol:


As quoted by lots of others its about driving skills not what costly modern high tech equipment your car has. I wasn't implying they didn't know how to change gear just the fact that 9out of10 people that get stuck on ice or snow think the only way to get out is to put the car in 1st and give it as much gas as possible. Whereas if they stuck it in 2nd and kept the rev to a minimum they'd get a lot further. Its like using the engine to slow the car down in icy conditions but hey why bother using the engine to do it safely when you've just paid £1000's to have some fancy new brake pads and calipers that can stop you faster than anything on the road.


----------



## cheekymonkey

lmorris said:


> You are missing the point mate they are not just for the snow they work better than summer tyres at temps below 7c, and you can say we don't get below 7c for only a few days.


used normal tyres all the time for years never had a problem, you just need to ajust your driving to match the conditions, good driving skill is more important


----------



## spursfan

RisingPower said:


> Winter tyres cost considerably more and I'm not even sure you can get them in the sizes I have currently.


yeah, bit wide on the z:thumb:


----------



## lmorris

My summer tyres 255 55 19 £189 each

My winter tyres 255 55 19 £155 each ( brought in August)


----------



## Darlofan

spursfan said:


> Far better to drive with the right equipment for the conditions, that way you will learn skills without falling into ditches.:thumb:
> starting out driving in the snow is pretty daunting, it's only as the years go by that you get that experience, unless you're in or were in the forces, then it's free:thumb:


Oh I don't know, I remember spinning my dads Sierra when I was younger. 1st thing he did was take me to a local industrial estate car park in the snow and get me to drive round it like an idiot. Excellent fun and taught me a hell of a lot more than I'd have learnt from being on a road in a car full of gadgets.


----------



## lmorris

RisingPower said:


> 255/35/19 at the front, 285/35/19 at the rear.
> 
> Iirc they were around double the price of summer tyres on the 18s, who knows if they come in 285s on 19s.
> 
> Ok, they start at around 300ish in 285.


Quick look where i get mine from £284 fronts and £ 279 for the rears, not cheap i grant you, but how much is your excess and patiently the loss of no claims bonus worth ?


----------



## moono16v

Take your time and do every manoeuvre slowly and you shouldn't have a problem!


----------



## RisingPower

lmorris said:


> Quick look where i get mine from £284 fronts and £ 279 for the rears, not cheap i grant you, but how much is your excess and patiently the loss of no claims bonus worth ?


Mytyres as you linked. That was >300 for the 285s. Excess is maybe the price of a tyre, no claims bonus, who knows? Not particularly much.

Simple fact is, it's pretty bleeding obvious when it's not sensible to drive the zed.

If I was going to get winter tyres it would be on the 18s. I have considered that.


----------



## spursfan

cheekymonkey said:


> used normal tyres all the time for years never had a problem, you just need to ajust your driving to match the conditions, good driving skill is more important


Cheekymonkey, there's a hill that leads up to my estate, no cars were going up it today and it's the same every year, only the odd 4x4 gets up there.
Today, i went up there 3 times in total, i would 100% say that you would not be able to get up there, it's just too steep for cars, they simply wheelspin after about 10 yards and then roll back down.
Every year, i have tried but to no avail, this year however was completely different, the 6 went up there so easily, it was mind boggling, to say i was blown away was an understatement.
I was also sceptical about winter tyres and really tried hard to justify why i should not buy them, then last year an article by Andy Monty persuaded me to part with the cash and get a set...Ultragrip 8's, believe me when i say that the difference is unbelievable.:thumb:


----------



## andy monty

spursfan said:


> Cheekymonkey, there's a hill that leads up to my estate, no cars were going up it today and it's the same every year, only the odd 4x4 gets up there.
> Today, i went up there 3 times in total, i would 100% say that you would not be able to get up there, it's just too steep for cars, they simply wheelspin after about 10 yards and then roll back down.
> Every year, i have tried but to no avail, this year however was completely different, the 6 went up there so easily, it was mind boggling, to say i was blown away was an understatement.
> I was also sceptical about winter tyres and really tried hard to justify why i should not buy them, then last year an article by Andy Monty persuaded me to part with the cash and get a set...Ultragrip 8's, believe me when i say that the difference is unbelievable.:thumb:


Phew so your not going to shout at me and tell me i was talking [email protected] :wave:


----------



## lmorris

RisingPower said:


> Mytyres as you linked. That was >300 for the 285s. Excess is maybe the price of a tyre, no claims bonus, who knows? Not particularly much.
> 
> Simple fact is, it's pretty bleeding obvious when it's not sensible to drive the zed.
> 
> If I was going to get winter tyres it would be on the 18s. I have considered that.


i dont get mine from mytyres, was not sure if i could post the site where i get mine from.


----------



## RisingPower

CChris said:


> Errr
> 
> My car has 235/35r18 summer run flats £245 ish, and 215/55r16 winter run flats £130 ish.
> 
> Summer tyres ware faster in cold temperatures, so how can they be more expensive?
> 
> Winter steel wheel cost £30 ish?


Economies of scale, easier to produce? Comparing like sizes would also help.


----------



## cheekymonkey

spursfan said:


> Far better to drive with the right equipment for the conditions, that way you will learn skills without falling into ditches.:thumb:
> starting out driving in the snow is pretty daunting, it's only as the years go by that you get that experience, unless you're in or were in the forces, then it's free:thumb:


you can pay to have courses on how to drive in bad conditions, then you get the experience needed before you need it. I wonder how many that are championing winter tyres have been on such courses which would be more of a benefit then winter tyres


----------



## Darlofan

spursfan said:


> Cheekymonkey, there's a hill that leads up to my estate, no cars were going up it today and it's the same every year, only the odd 4x4 gets up there.
> Today, i went up there 3 times in total, i would 100% say that you would not be able to get up there, it's just too steep for cars, they simply wheelspin after about 10 yards and then roll back down.
> Every year, i have tried but to no avail, this year however was completely different, the 6 went up there so easily, it was mind boggling, to say i was blown away was an understatement.
> I was also sceptical about winter tyres and really tried hard to justify why i should not buy them, then last year an article by Andy Monty persuaded me to part with the cash and get a set...Ultragrip 8's, believe me when i say that the difference is unbelievable.:thumb:


Well that's about £400+ for you to save having to walk up a hill a couple of days each year then


----------



## lmorris

The difference between winter tyres and summer tyres in the winter/snow is like the difference between night and day. If you got a set of winters i put money on it you would never be with out them again in the winter.


----------



## lmorris

cheekymonkey said:


> you can pay to have courses on how to drive in bad conditions, then you get the experience needed before you need it. I wonder how many that are championing winter tyres have been on such courses which would be more of a benefit then winter tyres


Dont it mate, and guess what tyres were fitted


----------



## andy monty

Darlofan said:


> Well that's about £400+ for you to save having to walk up a hill a couple of days each year then


Its not just snow they work in.... they offer far more grip when the temp dips below 7^C which lets be fair if you commute like i do at 7am -8am most mornings is at least 6 months of the year....

They could potentially save your life in the odd occasion someone else does something silly either on ice / snow or just cold wet greasy back road giving you a reduced stopping distance over conventional summers...

That and your summer tyres last much longer.. (harder summer compound wears far faster in the cold as the rubber becomes "brittle" and shears away in chunks (ok microscopic chunks) unlike softer silica based rubber...

I know not all will be convinced but in the area i live / commute in i'd rather have them than not......


----------



## Darlofan

lmorris said:


> The difference between winter tyres and summer tyres in the winter/snow is like the difference between night and day. If you got a set of winters i put money on it you would never be with out them again in the winter.


Unless you've never had a problem driving in Winter on Summer tyres.


----------



## spursfan

andy monty said:


> Phew so your not going to shout at me and tell me i was talking [email protected] :wave:


Andy, Now now, i can if you want
I just get a bit het up when the obvious is staring people in the face.
These tyres are just so much better and in my eyes, can be a potential life saver, good job you put me on to them last year:thumb:

Kev


----------



## andy monty

cheekymonkey said:


> you can pay to have courses on how to drive in bad conditions, then you get the experience needed before you need it. I wonder how many that are championing winter tyres have been on such courses which would be more of a benefit then winter tyres


But if you have not enough grip to overcome the cars stationary mass no amount of training will do you any good. to get the car moving...

likewise you can be well versed in ABS / Candace breaking / braking as gently as possible but no grip = no stop


----------



## lmorris

Darlofan said:


> Unless you've never had a problem driving in Winter on Summer tyres.


Mate thats fine, its your car and up to you what tyres you put on, but if you have the money give them a try i think you might just be shocked at the differance.


----------



## NeilG40

cheekymonkey said:


> you can pay to have courses on how to drive in bad conditions, then you get the experience needed before you need it. I wonder how many that are championing winter tyres have been on such courses which would be more of a benefit then winter tyres


Done the whole skid car thing with casters at each corner to simulate various levels of grip, still wouldn't be without my winter tyres.


----------



## andy monty

spursfan said:


> Andy, Now now, i can if you want
> I just get a bit het up when the obvious is staring people in the face.
> These tyres are just so much better and in my eyes, can be a potential life saver, good job you put me on to them last year:thumb:
> 
> Kev


well i run them and i know what they can do as you know.... 

Had one numpty in a Audi TT riding my bumper about 2 years ago going to work In my punto i entered a series of bends at a speed i was comfortable with (my regular commute on snow covered A road) I made it round no drama..... Audi ended up embedded in a tree..... (yes i stopped and checked on the driver he was ok)

Another thing to watch is that you on winter tyres can stop.. Things like traffic lights scare the bejeasus out of me as if i was to stop (within the cars/ my ability) I just know the car behind hasn't a chance in hell and will stop somewhere between my Bumper and back seats..... :wall:


----------



## cheekymonkey

spursfan said:


> Cheekymonkey, there's a hill that leads up to my estate, no cars were going up it today and it's the same every year, only the odd 4x4 gets up there.
> Today, i went up there 3 times in total, i would 100% say that you would not be able to get up there, it's just too steep for cars, they simply wheelspin after about 10 yards and then roll back down.
> Every year, i have tried but to no avail, this year however was completely different, the 6 went up there so easily, it was mind boggling, to say i was blown away was an understatement.
> I was also sceptical about winter tyres and really tried hard to justify why i should not buy them, then last year an article by Andy Monty persuaded me to part with the cash and get a set...Ultragrip 8's, believe me when i say that the difference is unbelievable.:thumb:


i live at the top of a hill which when it snows like today people have problem getting up, infact a guy with a 4x4 was charging people to tow them up last year, I have never had a problem with normal tyres. how long you had a 6 and i take it you mean a mazda


----------



## cheekymonkey

lmorris said:


> Dont it mate, and guess what tyres were fitted


thats right unless you do the advanced then they use normal tyres


----------



## cheekymonkey

lmorris said:


> The difference between winter tyres and summer tyres in the winter/snow is like the difference between night and day. If you got a set of winters i put money on it you would never be with out them again in the winter.


how much money you putting on, as i said i have tryed winter tyres, gone back to normal. Not enough of a benifit if you change your driving skills to suit conditions.


----------



## cheekymonkey

andy monty said:


> Its not just snow they work in.... they offer far more grip when the temp dips below 7^C which lets be fair if you commute like i do at 7am -8am most mornings is at least 6 months of the year....
> 
> They could potentially save your life in the odd occasion someone else does something silly either on ice / snow or just cold wet greasy back road giving you a reduced stopping distance over conventional summers...
> 
> That and your summer tyres last much longer.. (harder summer compound wears far faster in the cold as the rubber becomes "brittle" and shears away in chunks (ok microscopic chunks) unlike softer silica based rubber...
> 
> I know not all will be convinced but in the area i live / commute in i'd rather have them than not......


so you use winter tyres for 6 months of the year?


----------



## ben toney

People just need to learn how to drive in the snow. Today I got stuck in a car park for 2 hours because of people in 1st gear and high revs trying to get out and this just made it ten times harder for everyone, the Los lady infrint of me got stuck so I got out to help and showed her how to pull off etc and away she went, the government just need to put on TV shows with a small how to lesson so people are aware!


----------



## Darlofan

andy monty said:


> well i run them and i know what they can do as you know....
> 
> Had one numpty in a Audi TT riding my bumper about 2 years ago going to work In my punto i entered a series of bends at a speed i was comfortable with (my regular commute on snow covered A road) I made it round no drama..... Audi ended up embedded in a tree..... (yes i stopped and checked on the driver he was ok)
> 
> Another thing to watch is that you on winter tyres can stop.. Things like traffic lights scare the bejeasus out of me as if i was to stop (within the cars/ my ability) I just know the car behind hasn't a chance in hell and will stop somewhere between my Bumper and back seats..... :wall:


But if someone runs into the back of you it was because they were driving too close.


----------



## Darlofan

ben toney said:


> People just need to learn how to drive in the snow. Today I got stuck in a car park for 2 hours because of people in 1st gear and high revs trying to get out and this just made it ten times harder for everyone, the Los lady infrint of me got stuck so I got out to help and showed her how to pull off etc and away she went, the government just need to put on TV shows with a small how to lesson so people are aware!


Nail on head


----------



## cheekymonkey

andy monty said:


> But if you have not enough grip to overcome the cars stationary mass no amount of training will do you any good. to get the car moving...
> 
> likewise you can be well versed in ABS / Candace breaking / braking as gently as possible but no grip = no stop


why would you use your brakes in snow, that is the biggest mistake you can make and just goes to show trainig and driving skill is more important:thumb:


----------



## spursfan

cheekymonkey said:


> i live at the top of a hill which when it snows like today people have problem getting up, infact a guy with a 4x4 was charging people to tow them up last year, I have never had a problem with normal tyres. how long you had a 6 and i take it you mean a mazda


Tis a Mazda 6, got it in feb 2009. just could not get it up that hill, it's about 1 in 5 at the beginning, these winter tyres make it seem like a flat bit of road, simply amazing, i honestly did not think that they could make such a big difference but they have.


----------



## cheekymonkey

NeilG40 said:


> Done the whole skid car thing with casters at each corner to simulate various levels of grip, still wouldn't be without my winter tyres.


thats your choice but which has been the bigger benifit tyres or the training?


----------



## spursfan

Its getting late now so am off to beddy byes. i will say one thing before i depart.......

you can take a horse to water but you can't make it drink:thumb: think you all know what i am saying here..

Night all:thumb:


----------



## cheekymonkey

spursfan said:


> Its getting late now so am off to beddy byes. i will say one thing before i depart.......
> 
> you can take a horse to water but you can't make it drink:thumb: think you all know what i am saying here..
> 
> Night all:thumb:


your thirsty :lol::lol:


----------



## Darlofan

spursfan said:


> Its getting late now so am off to beddy byes. i will say one thing before i depart.......
> 
> you can take a horse to water but you can't make it drink:thumb: think you all know what i am saying here..
> 
> Night all:thumb:


You need a vet?


----------



## NeilG40

cheekymonkey said:


> thats your choice but which has been the bigger benifit tyres or the training?


The tyres, there's an downhill off-camber corner coming into our estate and no amount of training is going to give summer tyres as much lateral grip as winters.


----------



## andy monty

cheekymonkey said:


> why would you use your brakes in snow, that is the biggest mistake you can make and just goes to show trainig and driving skill is more important:thumb:


Why's that? the tyres grip, the brakes work and the car comes to a safe stop? When using them with in the grip point/ maintaining the car as close to in balance as posdible

Ok another sinario I've had happen to me kid flies out into the road on a sledge "yes officer i run him over the winter driving course taught me not to brake... "


----------



## VXR220

Darlofan said:


> Well I went out today in this hilly part of North Wales where gritters don't go with my Set of budget summer types(£200 for4) and didn't have a problem.


£200 for 4budgets? My girlfriend Yokohama winter tyres cost £260 for 4,so that's why I recommend these winter tyres this time of year,I think some people must think winter tyres cost £1000's.


----------



## Darlofan

andy monty said:


> Why's that? the tyres grip, the brakes work and the car comes to a safe stop? When using them with in the grip point/ maintaining the car as close to in balance as posdible
> 
> Ok another sinario I've had happen to me kid flies out into the road on a sledge "yes officer i run him over the winter driving course taught me not to brake... "


No i'd say "I was driving safely for the conditions offficer when this kid came out of nowhere and I hit him" what's he going to do arrest me for not having Winter tyres on?
BTW I have got 2 kids so it's not that i'm heartless!!


----------



## Darlofan

VXR220 said:


> £200 for 4budgets? My girlfriend Yokohama winter tyres cost £260 for 4,so that's why I recommend these winter tyres this time of year,I think some people must think winter tyres cost £1000's.


It's not the cost that's an issue, just the fact I think they're pointless, if they were cheaper than Summer tyres i still wouldn't bother swapping them.
There is also the argument that she paid £260for them in November/December then will have to pay another £40 Feb/March to have her Summers put on then another£40 next Nov/Dec for the Winters. By this time you'll probably have the tyre place telling her because they've not been used all year they have degraded and she should replace them.


----------



## boyasaka

Having to resit your driving test after you have had a at fault accident should be mandatory . Cos i would say they is dangerous numbers of people own a driving licence but can't actually drive


----------



## Z4-35i

Worth a view ...


----------



## boyasaka

And all this talk about winter tyres ,30 year ago don't think anyone had head of winter tyres .almost every car was rear wheel drive (my dad bought his first front wheel drive car in 1982 ,X reg astra ) and we had much worse winters back then yet people were Not sliding into walls and trees every 2 mins. Only difference i have noticed back in 82 when i was 10 i only knew 1 woman driver :O


----------



## Darlofan

boyasaka said:


> Having to resit your driving test after you have had a at fault accident should be mandatory . Cos i would say they is dangerous numbers of people own a driving licence but can't actually drive


Very true, but as we know anyone can sit a test driving the way the examiner wants you to. What they need is to put incar cameras or black boxes in cars of people that have accidents and monitor their driving styles.


----------



## boyasaka

Ill vote for you as transport minister and i can be your assistant and we will sort the idiots out. Testicles dipped in acid. For speeding on snow for starters . Jumping red lights would carry attempted murder charge. And 2 at fault accidents in a year removal of there licence


----------



## Darlofan

Z4-35i said:


> Worth a view ...Summer vs Winter Tyre Test - Snowdome


Yep watched it and still not convinced. 
Great video by Dunlop trying to sell their tyres though. 
I'm not disputing that Winter tyres grip better just the fact that they're not worth the money for the weather we get in most parts of this country.

BTW-the drivers were obviously taken from the crowd there so what's to say with proper training they wouldn't get the cars up the hill and back down again? Put my wife on there and I can guarentee she would do what most people would do and floor it thinking higher revs willl get me up there.

I was on a course last week where we were shown a video on the dangers of fridge fires and how many there are in the UK each year, if i can upload it will you be getting shot of your fridge?


----------



## Darlofan

boyasaka said:


> Ill vote for you as transport minister and i can be your assistant and we will sort the idiots out. Testicles dipped in acid. For speeding on snow for starters . Jumping red lights would carry attempted murder charge. And 2 at fault accidents in a year removal of there licence


That'd be a start wouldn't it:lol:


----------



## derbigofast

snow tyres make no difference if you cant drive smooth and make no sudden alterations then tyres wont make any difference


----------



## CChris

cheekymonkey said:


> you can pay to have courses on how to drive in bad conditions, then you get the experience needed before you need it. I wonder how many that are championing winter tyres have been on such courses which would be more of a benefit then winter tyres


I have winter tyres, have been on skid pan training, lotus driver training and have done over 100 track days in a Caterham 7. My 7 had ACB10 Avon tyres designed for the track, which on the road never got to operating temperature, and in the wet the grip was non existent. I would never drive with them in the wet if I had a choice.

It's the same for winter / summer tyres, if I had a choice (and I did) then winters when it's wet below 7c or snow.

I have two ladies in my life, the wife and my car. The wife had many pairs of shoes, the car only asked for two pairs of boots


----------



## mart.

Darlofan said:


> It's not the cost that's an issue, just the fact I think they're pointless, if they were cheaper than Summer tyres i still wouldn't bother swapping them.
> There is also the argument that she paid £260for them in November/December then will have to pay another £40 Feb/March to have her Summers put on then another£40 next Nov/Dec for the Winters. By this time you'll probably have the tyre place telling her because they've not been used all year they have degraded and she should replace them.


Buy the winter tyres with steel rims. 
Fit wheels in Nov
Refit summer wheels in march
Tyres last a good few years before degrading.
The summer tyres last longer because they are being used for 5 months.

SO after the initial out lay it evens up over a year or so.


----------



## CChris

RisingPower said:


> Economies of scale, easier to produce? Comparing like sizes would also help.


But that is the BMW recommended winter wheel and tyre size for my car. So it's the correct comparison.


----------



## mart.

I first used winter tyre's 3 years ago for getting in work. It is up hill all the way in. 
Out of the 40 people in my dept I was the only one who got to the car park!

I bet about 68%of people that have voted have never used winter tyre's and think the are god's give it winter driving. :lol:


----------



## CChris

cheekymonkey said:


> so you use winter tyres for 6 months of the year?


More like 5 months in the UK. November till March.


----------



## CChris

boyasaka said:


> And all this talk about winter tyres ,30 year ago don't think anyone had head of winter tyres .almost every car was rear wheel drive (my dad bought his first front wheel drive car in 1982 ,X reg astra ) and we had much worse winters back then yet people were Not sliding into walls and trees every 2 mins. Only difference i have noticed back in 82 when i was 10 i only knew 1 woman driver :O


Car have got more powerful, tyres have got wider, profiles have got lower and tyre compounds have changes to reduce the amount of nature rubber in them.


----------



## should_do_more

Remember winter tyres are for below 7c, when the normal rubber compound on summer tyres hardens up. It's not just about snow.

I have driven with both, and I keep the winter ones on the car from October to march.the reason is that the boxster can barely move in snow, the tyres are almost slick. Nothing to do with driving, revving, first gear or anything else, just simple physics. They don't wear too badly either, if anyone is in doubt I would probably buy just winter tyres and keep them on all year.

I think one of the best cars I have driven in the snow is the aygo. Light, skinny tyres, front wheel drive. That doesn't need winter tyres particularly but might try them one day.

Anything rear wheel drive with low profile tyres does need them. I'm betting most people saying they don't need them drive mid size front wheel drive cars. And in that case I see why you don't.

As for being mandatory, storage and cost would be against it. Even with one set of spare wheels I am falling over them. Imagine anyone with one or two cars. Would be a nightmare!

So in summary, below 7c when you aren't pottering round town, I think they make a huge difference. And by town I mean London where you are lucky to hit 20mph most of the time.


----------



## mart.

Or there the other option. 

ALL SEASON TYRE'S. Best of both worlds, if you live in a warmer area where you don't get much snow or low temps. They work in winter and summer :lol:

More expensive than summer tyre''s but cheaper than buying summer & winter tyres.


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## CChris

Nobody mentioned "All year round" tyres, they are a little more expensive than summer tyres, but on a small fwd I am sure they would be fine. Summer tyres are fitted to cars from new because they are cheaper than All Year Rounds.


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## CChris

mart. said:


> Or there the other option.
> 
> ALL SEASON TYRE'S. Best of both worlds, if you live in a warmer area where you don't get much snow or low temps. They work in winter and summer :lol:
> 
> More expensive than summer tyre''s but cheaper than buying summer & winter tyres.


Posted as I wrote


----------



## DampDog

derbigofast said:


> snow tyres make no difference if you cant drive smooth and make no sudden alterations then tyres wont make any difference


Snow tyres make a big difference. But so does having half decent summer tyres, with decent amount of tread and correct pressures. Being close to the legal tread limit in summer is bad enough, in winter it's a disaster waiting to happen. It's probaly worse this year because people are feeling the pinch so are eeking things out a little more than they may usually do.

If money wasn't an option I'd have a set of winter tyres without question, in my book if improves safety and grip i'll have them thank you very much.

But £400+ for a set of tyres and rims that really only come into their own on a few days in the year is a non-starter. I have read the argument that "over time" they won't cost you much. But for me the initial outlay is simply beyond my means.

Then there's the other side of the argument, "I can drive anywhere, I'm careful, and a good driver" Well yes, driving style does play a big part, low gear, gentle use of controls, choose your route (if you can) but that's all well and good up to a point. Where I am it's quite hilly and it doesn't really matter what you drive, when the conditions are bad you're not getting up, unless you have a suitably booted 4X4 or tractor.

I try to be pragmatic, I have a set of snow socks, shovel, blanket, torch, munchies all stashed in the boot just in case. I alter my driving style to the conditions and don't make silly needless journeys. That has to surfice, I can't afford a 4X4 plaything or winter tyres. If you can go for it, I'd love a Bowler Wildcat in the garage for "Snow days" but it's never going to happen.

People need to use a bit of common sense, lots of people get stuck making journeys they didn't have to make anyway and just clog up the roads for emergency services. Plus how many youg drivers have you seen "playing" in the snow, wheels spinning, bouncing off the rev limiter because it's fun! (until they have their first knock and it cost them money) On top of that because we don't have conditions like this every year folk don't have long enough to learn how to drive in it. And it depends on where you live if you're out in the sticks you may well be used to mud, wet and slippy.

If anyone thinks I absolutely MUST have them.. (215/45R16 X4, Please.)


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## SteveTDCi

I've got as far as page 4, it seems to me people assume winter tyres are just for snow, they are not. Have a watch of this ...






Now winter tyres are not going to save you f you hit a patch of ice at 50mph, you still need to be sensible. I've just come up to northyorkshire and could have take the tt with Quattro or the cupra with fwd and winter tyres, the cupra won. This thing about 4wd, they might be able to get up the hill but it's the coming down when the weight is against you, you will have not enough grip to stop.

I find winters work well in the cold and damp, I can pull out of a junction and accelerate hard without the traction control light flashing, I cannot do that with the summer Pirellis on.

People that say they're not worth it obviously haven't tried them.


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## PaulTheo

I have been driving for over 30 years and have never got stuck or had an accident, but I did find my new tyres very poor in the snow and especially the compacted ice. The tyres are Michelin PS3s and great even in the cold, except in the snow. I did struggle to get around yesterday more than any other time I can remember and I did think that I mught even get stuck or need a push. Starting off was my main problem my tres just would not get any traction stopping was also an issue but easier to control with less speed and more distance (except for the a***hole that just came out of a junction with his wheels locked but still just stopped in time). I am looking at some wheels and tyres something on a smaller wheel and narrower as 245 is too wide. I just want to make sure I do something to help me to protect myself and my investment in a very nice but expensive car. The reason for being on this forum is because I like to look after it. :detailer: :buffer: :car:


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## VXR220

Do you think you would be able to drive this summer tyres on






I'm not saying that it should be law to drive with winter tyres but I am saying they make a difference,people think a tyre is just a round rubber thing,but a lot of development goes into them.
Just can't understand why people spend £1000's of interior,Ice,polish,engine mods,brakes etc....then skimp on the only thing that keeps your car on the ground?yet people blow loads of money on track day tyres and think they can drive like Lewis or jenson lol


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## Avanti

SteveTDCi said:


> I've got as far as page 4, it seems to me people assume winter tyres are just for snow, they are not. Have a watch of this ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now winter tyres are not going to save you f you hit a patch of ice at 50mph, you still need to be sensible. I've just come up to northyorkshire and could have take the tt with Quattro or the cupra with fwd and winter tyres, the cupra won. This thing about 4wd, they might be able to get up the hill but it's the coming down when the weight is against you, you will have not enough grip to stop.
> 
> I find winters work well in the cold and damp, I can pull out of a junction and accelerate hard without the traction control light flashing, I cannot do that with the summer Pirellis on.
> 
> *People that say they're not worth it obviously haven't tried them.*


Post #136 explains why, many readers here won't want to spend more than £17 for wax or £100 for a washer, so can you really see many spending £400 for tyres that only get a few months use?
As a side note, the budget tyres I have on over 12 months and 9000 miles were coping absolutely fine.
As you have mentioned , the winter tyres are not going to allow users to drive around with impunity during a bit of ice and snow. Birmingham was gridlocked much of the afternoon on friday, as well as the weather, much of it is down to driver inexperience and stupidity 
Sometimes the media create the frenzy, some road users think they don't have to think and prepare for the conditions ahead as that is purely the responsibility of the authorities 

Just had a look at the article, All season tyres seem the best value.


----------



## DampDog

Avanti said:


> Post #136 explains why, many readers here won't want to spend more than £17 for wax or £100 for a washer, so can you really see many spending £400 for tyres that only get a few months use?


Why would my comments on winter tyres have any bearing on not spending more than £17 wax??? Is £17 some sort of psychological threshold I don't know about?


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## NeilG40

Avanti said:


> Post #136 explains why, many readers here won't want to spend more than £17 for wax or £100 for a washer, so can you really see many spending £400 for tyres that only get a few months use?
> .


Well I'm on my third winter from my set so by the end of March that will be around 15 months and there's still plenty of tread on them.


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## 4d_dc2

Just tried some Bridgestone blizzak studless snow tyres that were on a car we imported from Japan, and boy there amazing. I was a doubter too and in keeping them as a spare set now. On packed snow you can actually just accelerate an brake like your on a wet road. There awesome.


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## Avanti

DampDog said:


> Why would my comments on winter tyres have any bearing on not spending more than £17 wax??? Is £17 some sort of psychological threshold I don't know about?


Yeah, it's the price of a tin that is huge and lasts ages.



NeilG40 said:


> Well I'm on my third winter from my set so by the end of March that will be around 15 months and there's still plenty of tread on them.


I'm on my budgets still, so saved £400 in 12 months.

The point I'm putting across is that no one is going to get chastised for using or not using them, in the video it is of little consolation if the red car was behind the black car. 4*4 are stuck in the same traffic gridlock. I do recall last year there were plenty of 4*4 vehicles dumped between Birmingham and Cannock that Saturday we had a heavy downfall (I was out testing my budget tyres that evening) . As a side note, adding winter tyres to a vehicle is that classed as a modification for insurance purposes? 

Naturally if owners wish to use winter tyres at their own cost, then yes go ahead, but as for compulsory? Definately not, not in the UK from 54.3 degress north and southwards.


----------



## Avanti

4d_dc2 said:


> Just tried some Bridgestone blizzak studless snow tyres that were on a car we imported from Japan, and boy there amazing. I was a doubter too and in keeping them as a spare set now. *On packed snow you can actually just accelerate an brake like your on a wet road*. There awesome.


What about the vehicle in front and behind you?


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## DampDog

Avanti said:


> Yeah, it's the price of a tin that is huge and lasts ages.


Afraid you've lost me, can't decide whether you're trying to be funny or sarcastic.. If it's sarcasm, you need to work on it, you're way too subtle.


----------



## Avanti

DampDog said:


> Afraid you've lost me, can't decide whether you're trying to be funny or sarcastic.. If it's sarcasm, you need to work on it, you're way too subtle.


Those that get it, get it. Long story short, is that if 'everybody' is not doing it, then 'everybody' is not going to do it.
So irrespective of the benefits of winter tyres, it's fair to assume the majority of readers here are not going to rush out and spend the amount on tyres, plus the inconvenience of storage.


----------



## Z4-35i

Avanti said:


> Just had a look at the article, All season tyres seem the best value.


All season Goodyear Wrangler's on the Jeep and Michelin Pilot Super Sports on the Z4. Z4 is staying in the garage at the moment.


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## Bristle Hound

Is don't deny winter tyres are better in the winter

However, with decent summer tyres on my Audi costing over £200 each (255/35 19's) I'm sorry, I just CANNOT justify spending over £800 on another set of tyres just for the winter 

I just try to be careful. Just wish all the other idiots would do so. Especially all those in 4x4's who think they are invincible in the snow - idiots! :wall:


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## RisingPower

CChris said:


> But that is the BMW recommended winter wheel and tyre size for my car. So it's the correct comparison.


Not generally it isn't, no.


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## shl-kelso

Bristle Hound said:


> Is don't deny winter tyres are better in the winter
> 
> However, with decent summer tyres on my Audi costing over £200 each (255/35 19's) I'm sorry, I just CANNOT justify spending over £800 on another set of tyres just for the winter
> 
> I just try to be careful. Just wish all the other idiots would do so. Especially all those in 4x4's who think they are invincible in the snow - idiots! :wall:


I'm not trying to say you should change, but in economic terms if winter tyres are a similar price to summer (mine were) then over the life of both sets of tyres the only additional cost is for swapping them over. I prefer to swap the tyre on my existing alloys rather than get a second set of wheels, a second set of alloys would be too expensive for me to justify and I don't want to run for several months a year with steels wheels.

And an idiot is an idiot, 4x4 and tyre choice does not make much difference. In this weather we'll all see plenty of drivers who are aiming for a Darwin Award


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## RisingPower

mart. said:


> I first used winter tyre's 3 years ago for getting in work. It is up hill all the way in.
> Out of the 40 people in my dept I was the only one who got to the car park!
> 
> I bet about 68%of people that have voted have never used winter tyre's and think the are god's give it winter driving. :lol:


No, I just think I've never really had a need for them and 600 for a couple of days where I'd really notice the difference, isn't worth it.

Also don't you still need to inform your insurers?


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## Derekh929

No but a proper driving test and further training after they pass with skid pan and track training to understand how to drive in different conditions and how it effects the tyre grip.
What difference will it make if you have no experience in snow with winter tyres , it's about making the correct decision and planning ahead. I used to drive up to ski centres in rear drive Manta sometimes a dozen times when roads were properly treated and keeper open to keep the economy going. Know just say stay at home as we can't be bother clearing them, I never got stuck in 80's early 90's few very close calls but. What a fun drive awesome fun. 1st gear down ****bridge road from lecht ski centre look it up slid from top to bottom like a tabbogan in between a 8 feet road the blower went through


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## DampDog

Derekh929 said:


> No but a proper driving test and further training after they pass with skid pan and track training to understand how to drive in different conditions and how it effects the tyre grip


Sorry but how much is that going to cost and the test already has time constraints.
The average learner takes between 36 and 44 hours to learn as it is, so 44 x £24 so that is over £1000 not counting the theory or practical cost. Following that they can choose to take Pass-Plus if they wish. That is another £150+

"Proper" driving comes form hours and hours of experience. You can't teach experience. What you can instruct on is correct practices and techniques to keep them safe until they build the necessary experience and judgement. Far more important than "driving skills" is attitude and you can't easily change those in only 40 hours or so.


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## RisingPower

Z4-35i said:


> All season Goodyear Wrangler's on the Jeep and Michelin Pilot Super Sports on the Z4. Z4 is staying in the garage at the moment.


Would you drive the z4 in winter with a fair amount of snow and winter tyres?


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## lmorris

Its a shame some of us live so far apart as i would love to take the driving gods (who seem to be able to defy the laws of physics) to a hill near where i live. I would bet my house and car on it that they could not make it up the hill let alone down it without winter tyres.
Some people will never listen to reason no matter how much evidence is placed before them, because they are the worlds best driver and they will never crash.
Its all about safety but it seems some would rather take a chance (as i am a driving god) than do the smart thing, well crack on but when you do come unstuck and you will one day, it might make you think maybe they were right after all. :thumb:


----------



## mart.

RisingPower said:


> No, I just think I've never really had a need for them and 600 for a couple of days where I'd really notice the difference, isn't worth it.
> 
> Also don't you still need to inform your insurers?


AGAIN its not just a couple of days. You feel the difference in a lot more situations. I know I've got them.

No you dont need to inform your insurers as long as you use the right speed and load rating as stated by your manufacturer.


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## DampDog

lmorris said:


> Its a shame some of us live so far apart as i would love to take the driving gods (who seem to be able to defy the laws of physics) to a hill near where i live.


There can be only one....


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## spursfan

RisingPower said:


> No, I just think I've never really had a need for them and 600 for a couple of days where I'd really notice the difference, isn't worth it.
> 
> Also don't you still need to inform your insurers?


No, there is a list somewhere that says almost all insurance companies dont need notifying about them.


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## spursfan

DampDog said:


> There can be only one....
> 
> Richard Hammond " I am a Driving God " - YouTube


Bet he's one of those with summer tyres on that we see struggling in this weather:lol:

Kev


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## DampDog

spursfan said:


> Bet he's one of those with summer tyres on that we see struggling in this weather:lol:
> 
> Kev


Nah, he's ave it on slicks, cuz he's arrd..


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## Alex_225

To me personally, I've never been in a situation where I've gone, 'I wish I had snow tyres' yet I don't have any doubts of their ability and advantages in colder weather. 

If I was doing 20k a year, relied on my car to the point of it being essential then I'd certainly consider it. 

Where as because I commute by train, if theres snow on the ground I go to the end of my road and jump on a bus as does my other half. In terms of driving in the rain and ice, I have up until now adjusted my driving accordingly and not experienced any problems with that in the last 13 years of driving.

What's the betting that if they made winter tyres a legal requirement, it would give some idiots so much confidence they'd end up crashing anyway! lol


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## RisingPower

mart. said:


> AGAIN its not just a couple of days. You feel the difference in a lot more situations. I know I've got them.
> 
> No you dont need to inform your insurers as long as you use the right speed and load rating as stated by your manufacturer.


There are a few days, that I notice the grip isn't much on the summer tyres, those are the days I'd *need* winter tyres.


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## spursfan

Alex_225 said:


> To me personally, I've never been in a situation where I've gone, 'I wish I had snow tyres' yet I don't have any doubts of their ability and advantages in colder weather.
> 
> If I was doing 20k a year, relied on my car to the point of it being essential then I'd certainly consider it.
> 
> Where as because I commute by train, if theres snow on the ground I go to the end of my road and jump on a bus as does my other half. In terms of driving in the rain and ice, I have up until now adjusted my driving accordingly and not experienced any problems with that in the last 13 years of driving.
> 
> What's the betting that if they made winter tyres a legal requirement, it would give some idiots so much confidence they'd end up crashing anyway! lol


Sensible outlook, i know that a lot of companies will not pay you unless you turn in for work.
2 years back when we had that really bad snow that lasted 6-7 weeks, i had to walk into work at least 10 times, imagine if work was too far away and i had not got paid for 10 days:doublesho, would have lost somewhere in the region £1500, paying out £400 quid for my ultragrip 8's is definitely an investment that would have paid off if i were in that situation and was not getting paid.


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## peaky

I got a set of slightly part worn winters in nov from a guy a work because he changed his car, paid £100 for them (2 dunlops 7mm, 2 goodyears 8mm) and cost me £40 to swap them over. I have been driving for 16 years without ever trying winter tyres, never seen the point. Although they are better in the cold they are more noisy than summer tyres but after driving yesterday I will always have a set from now on what ever the cost.


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## xJay1337

I had winter tyres last year.
Yes they are a benefit but they are not the be all and end all.

I have high performance summer tyres (Sessantas with a big chunky tread pattern which might help) but even over the last few days I've managed to get up hills where Audi Q7s have been spinning all 4 of their wheels.
It's about driving suitably for the conditions, understanding how to drive on snow, avoid braking where possible, etc.


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## spursfan

xJay1337 said:


> I had winter tyres last year.
> Yes they are a benefit but they are not the be all and end all.
> 
> I have high performance summer tyres (Sessantas with a big chunky tread pattern which might help) but even over the last few days I've managed to get up hills where Audi Q7s have been spinning all 4 of their wheels.
> It's about driving suitably for the conditions, understanding how to drive on snow, avoid braking where possible, etc.


Right, another driving god who can drive anywhere on slicks:lol:


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## peaky

Your right it is about driving suitably for the conditions, but even the best and most careful driver can be caught out, so if winter tyres help I think that's worth the cost.


----------



## DJ X-Ray

No,i don't think they should be made compulsory,but if people want to buy them feel free,but i've never had a problem in snow etc, so they're not something i've felt i needed,i just adjust my driving style to suit like i do in all conditions.


----------



## Avanti

lmorris said:


> Its a shame some of us live so far apart as i would love to take the driving gods (who seem to be able to defy the laws of physics) to a hill near where i live. I would bet my house and car on it that they could not make it up the hill let alone down it without winter tyres.
> *Some people will never listen to reason no matter how much evidence is placed before them, because they are the worlds best driver and they will never crash.
> Its all about safety but it seems some would rather take a chance (as i am a driving god) than do the smart thing, well crack on but when you do come unstuck and you will one day, it might make you think maybe they were right after all.* :thumb:


Instead of preaching and trying the scare tactics, here is the deal YOU pay for some of the members to have these super tyres fitted, and if they like them they give you twice the money back eh? :speechles


----------



## Avanti

peaky said:


> Your right it is about driving suitably for the conditions, but even the best and most careful driver can be caught out, so if winter tyres help I think that's worth the cost.


Were you caught out yeasterday Peaky?


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## Superspec

Winter tyres aren't just about snow though. 

They make a big difference at as soon as average temperatures fall below 7 degrees. We've put them on our car this year and I am genuinely surprised by how much more grip there is in the cold, particularly in wet and frosty conditions. We might not see much snow in the UK but you have to bear in mind that anything below +3 degrees can cause ice on the road.

I accept there is a significant initial outlay involved with fitting winter tyres but if you ask me to compare that to the safety of my family it's money well spent. 

I suspect the vast majority of people who have voted no have never used/experienced winter tyres. If you had you would have voted yes!


----------



## Darlofan

Superspec said:


> Winter tyres aren't just about snow though.
> 
> They make a big difference at as soon as average temperatures fall below 7 degrees. We've put them on our car this year and I am genuinely surprised by how much more grip there is in the cold, particularly in wet and frosty conditions. We might not see much snow in the UK but you have to bear in mind that anything below +3 degrees can cause ice on the road.
> 
> I accept there is a significant initial outlay involved with fitting winter tyres but if you ask me to compare that to the safety of my family it's money well spent.
> 
> I suspect the vast majority of people who have voted no have never used/experienced winter tyres. If you had you would have voted yes!


The poll was should they be mandatory not do you think they are worth it.


----------



## Darlofan

spursfan said:


> Right, another driving god who can drive anywhere on slicks:lol:


Seems like we have 2 different camps here. The driving gods that you speak of and the "hey everybody look at my fantastic go anywhere do anything super duper tyres" brigade.


----------



## Superspec

Darlofan said:


> The poll was should they be mandatory not do you think they are worth it.


I can read, and I think they should be compulsory, I'm guessing you've never used them.


----------



## Darlofan

lmorris said:


> Its a shame some of us live so far apart as i would love to take the driving gods (who seem to be able to defy the laws of physics) to a hill near where i live. I would bet my house and car on it that they could not make it up the hill let alone down it without winter tyres.
> Some people will never listen to reason no matter how much evidence is placed before them, because they are the worlds best driver and they will never crash.
> Its all about safety but it seems some would rather take a chance (as i am a driving god) than do the smart thing, well crack on but when you do come unstuck and you will one day, it might make you think maybe they were right after all. :thumb:


Have you thought of moving?

Like you say it's all about risk and how different people perceive that risk. It's like life/critical illness insurance etc, some people will read everything they can and focus on the doom and gloom side of it and insure themselves to the hilt. Others will weigh up the odds and think no thanks i'll leave it for now.


----------



## Superspec

Darlofan said:


> Have you thought of moving?
> 
> Like you say it's all about risk and how different people perceive that risk. It's like life/critical illness insurance etc, some people will read everything they can and focus on the doom and gloom side of it and insure themselves to the hilt. Others will weigh up the odds and think no thanks i'll leave it for now.


The difference is if you choose not to take life/critical illness insurance out that doesn't affect an innocent third party. If you don't have winter tyres and it turns out you aren't such a driving god it is likely to affect innocent people.


----------



## Darlofan

Superspec said:


> I can read, and I think they should be compulsory, I'm guessing you've never used them.


No I'm one of these "driving gods". Apparently because i've driven for over 20 years without a problem.:thumb:


----------



## Darlofan

Superspec said:


> The difference is if you choose not to take life/critical illness insurance out that doesn't affect an innocent third party. If you don't have winter tyres and it turns out you aren't such a driving god it is likely to affect innocent people.


Don't let my wife and kids hear you say that!


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## RisingPower

Superspec said:


> The difference is if you choose not to take life/critical illness insurance out that doesn't affect an innocent third party. If you don't have winter tyres and it turns out you aren't such a driving god it is likely to affect innocent people.


If you drive like an idiot, it is likely to affect other people, if you break down, it's likely to affect other people.

Winter tyres won't save you in every occasion, this, is the point. They will certainly help though.


----------



## Avanti

Superspec said:


> The difference is if you choose not to take life/critical illness insurance out that doesn't affect an innocent third party. If you don't have winter tyres *and it turns out you aren't such a driving god it is likely to affect innocent people.*


So why are we paying for 3rd party liabilty insurance? Are you suggesting those with winter tyres are immune from the effects of the weather or other road users?


----------



## Superspec

Darlofan said:


> No I'm one of these "driving gods". Apparently because i've driven for over 20 years without a problem.:thumb:


You've never had a problem in 20 years?

You've never been stuck in traffic for hours because other people are stranded?

You've never found it difficult to get up a hill or pull away from a junction that is slightly up hill?

I've been driving for 23 years and I consider myself to be a good driver, not a driving god, but sensible. I've had problems. I've had a journey that should have taken 20 minutes take 4 hours. I've been stranded over night because roads are gridlocked, I've got stuck on a hill, I've had to leave my car in an adjacent street because there is no way any cars can get out of the street I lived in, I've skidded under braking in the snow, I've had to abandon a car for 4 days because of the snow.

I've used winter tyres and I'll never no have them now. I can form an opinion based on fact because I have been on both sides of the argument.

I will always use winter tyres from now on. I just have to hope I don't get shunted by someone who thinks they don't need them when I have my family in the car.


----------



## RisingPower

Superspec said:


> You've never had a problem in 20 years?
> 
> You've never been stuck in traffic for hours because other people are stranded?
> 
> You've never found it difficult to get up a hill or pull away from a junction that is slightly up hill?
> 
> I've been driving for 23 years and I consider myself to be a good driver, not a driving god, but sensible. I've had problems. I've had a journey that should have taken 20 minutes take 4 hours. I've been stranded over night because roads are gridlocked, I've got stuck on a hill, I've had to leave my car in an adjacent street because there is no way any cars can get out of the street I lived in, I've skidded under braking in the snow, I've had to abandon a car for 4 days because of the snow.
> 
> I've used winter tyres and I'll never no have them now. I can form an opinion based on fact because I have been on both sides of the argument.
> 
> I will always use winter tyres from now on. I just have to hope I don't get shunted by someone who thinks they don't need them when I have my family in the car.


I've been stuck in hours in jams, regardless of the weather and I think you'll find you can get shunted in any weather too.

Perish the thought that you may have once skidded under braking in the snow.


----------



## Superspec

Avanti said:


> So why are we paying for 3rd party liabilty insurance? Are you suggesting those with winter tyres are immune from the effects of the weather or other road users?


Well, it's the law, that'll be why we have car insurance. And you're missing the point, but I suspect you know that.

And no of course I don't think that. The FACT is though, winter tyres are safer in cold weather.

If you don't want to use them that's fine. I'd be interested to hear if you have you used them in the past though and are in a position to support your argument with experience or is your position based solely on your opinion?


----------



## cheekymonkey

andy monty said:


> Why's that? the tyres grip, the brakes work and the car comes to a safe stop? When using them with in the grip point/ maintaining the car as close to in balance as posdible
> 
> Ok another sinario I've had happen to me kid flies out into the road on a sledge "yes officer i run him over the winter driving course taught me not to brake... "


you can come up with your sinarios and sill outcomes but in snow you only skid because you use your brakes if you use other means you wont skid, wait i could tell that same officer i used the boy to slow me down :lol::lol:


----------



## SteveTDCi

I think on snow days people without winter tyres should not be allowed out of the house and fined 1 million dollars ..... And has been said many times over winter tyres are not just for snow.


----------



## Superspec

Darlofan said:


> Don't let my wife and kids hear you say that!


You know what I meant


----------



## Avanti

Superspec said:


> Well, it's the law, that'll be why we have car insurance. And you're missing the point, but I suspect you know that.
> 
> And no of course I don't think that. The FACT is though, winter tyres are safer in cold weather.
> 
> *If you don't want to use them that's fine. I'd be interested to hear if you have you used them in the past though and are in a position to support your argument with experience or is your position based solely on your opinion?*


Ah, at last there is acceptance of choice, they are not compulsory.
No I have not knowingly used them, I'm not offering an argument not to use them. My opinion is that if you or other advocates are willing to purchase some for my car for me to try, then I will gladly try them and report back. For now, in 30 odd years of driving I cannot see a case for ME to splash out on them when there are other road users that can hinder my journey or collide with my vehicle. Where am I supposed to store my budget tyres in the meantime?


----------



## cheekymonkey

CChris said:


> More like 5 months in the UK. November till March.


but this summers been poor and alot of the mornings its been wet and below 7, did you put your winter tyres back on or leave your normal tyres on


----------



## Natalie

Where's the undecided option in the poll?


----------



## Avanti

Natalie said:


> Where's the undecided option in the poll?


And the "don't give a hoot!" option
After all irrespective of the results of the poll, they won't be compulsory to use this side of xmas.


----------



## Superspec

Avanti said:


> Ah, at last there is acceptance of choice, they are not compulsory.
> No I have not knowingly used them, I'm not offering an argument not to use them. My opinion is that if you or other advocates are willing to purchase some for my car for me to try, then I will gladly try them and report back. For now, in 30 odd years of driving *I cannot see a case for ME to splash out on them* when there are other road users that can hinder my journey or collide with my vehicle. *Where am I supposed to store my budget tyres in the meantime?*


And this is the real issue.

Tyres fitters will store them for you if you don't have a garage. I Just got a cheap set of second hand alloys to put my winter tyres on and they live in my garage during the summer. I put a strong shelf above the garage door so they are out of the way.

The roads would be a safer place if winter tyre use was compulsory. You will still get people who decide they are above the law and choose not to have them the same as some scumbags think it's OK to drive without insurance. You will still get idiots who drive like they are the only car on the road or doing a lap of Silverstone. It doesn't matter what legislation is in place we will always be at risk from these people. But, I like to believe the vast majority of the population of this country are law abiding, sensible people and with that in mind we would all be safer during winter months with winter tyres.

The other thing is that the cost could come down as the market size increases. Winter tyres fetch a premium now because they aren't sold in volume.

Avanti, if you get chance to have a go in a car with winter tyres do it. I genuinely think you will be gobsmacked by the difference, I was always sceptical before I took the plunge and 12 months ago would probably have voted no. My Dad has been driving over 50 years and I convinced him to get some this year. Everytime I talk to him now he raves about them!


----------



## cheekymonkey

lmorris said:


> Its a shame some of us live so far apart as i would love to take the driving gods (who seem to be able to defy the laws of physics) to a hill near where i live. I would bet my house and car on it that they could not make it up the hill let alone down it without winter tyres.
> Some people will never listen to reason no matter how much evidence is placed before them, because they are the worlds best driver and they will never crash.
> Its all about safety but it seems some would rather take a chance (as i am a driving god) than do the smart thing, well crack on but when you do come unstuck and you will one day, it might make you think maybe they were right after all. :thumb:


being a bit silly with this driving god rubbish, but why do it you find it hard getting down a hill, use the right gear to hold you back and slight bit of gas to move you take foot of gas the low gear and a bit of hand brake will stop you :thumb:


----------



## Pezza4u

I have winter tyres on my car, so does the missus. Until 15 months ago I had never used them before but decided to give them a try rather than be one of these people who criticises them without actually using them.

We both noticed the difference with them immediately, especially when temperatures dropped below 7 degrees. On wet, frosty, icey roads they offer superb grip and braking. Last winter we didn't really have any snow so didn't get to test them out in that.

In all the years I've been driving I've only had to abandon the car once when I couldn't get down or up a hill 2 or 3 years ago. My summer tyres were getting low on tread, which didn't help but I had to admit defeat.

When we had the snow yesterday I left work early as I knew the traffic would be bad. I have a couple of steep hills on my commute and most people have problems with these. Once I got off the business park the queue to the next town where I live was already tailed back about 5 miles and completely gridlocked. I decided I was going to test these tyres in the snow properly so headed for the country lane, which goes from work to where I live cutting the main road out. At the end of the lane there is a very steep hill, which is where I wanted to test them.

I got to the bottom of the hill and just gently accelerated up it doing around 20mph. There were 3 cars inching their way down (Merc and BMWs) and I didn't fancy being in front of them for long in case they started sliding but the face on the guy in front was a classic when I went past him. Heading towards the top of the hill there were 2 guys walking (no pavement) on my side of the road. So I had to move over to go around them but then one decided to cross straight in front of me, obviously thinking no one would even attempt to go up this hill, so I had to swerve, which caused me to lose momentum and the car slowed down abit. The car just carried on going up this hill though, it wasn't fazed at all, whereas if I had made it this far on summer tyres (even though I know I wouldn't of) I very much doubt the car could've started building up speed again. When I got to the top the drivers stuck in traffic were just staring at me in amazement that I had gone up this hill. No one else followed me down this lane and I knew they wouldn't (unless they had winter tyres) cos of this hill.

This is the hill, it's even steeper than it looks - http://goo.gl/maps/Ud2vZ

Next road I had to take goes down a very steep hill and it went down here with no problems at all. I felt completely in control and the car didn't slide at all.

Then there is another steep hill I have to drive up and it's quite narrow as well. I got halfway up using the middle of the road and then there were a couple of cars coming down so had to move over/slow down and the car started sliding to the sides abit in the slush but was still going up and not wheelspinning. The brow of this hill is very steep though, plus it bends round.

This is the other hill - http://goo.gl/maps/NyWFJ

It only took me 30 minutes to get home yesterday, usually it's 10 minutes. Going on the main road would've taken me at least 3 hours after talking to other people taking the same route.

After yesterday I am definitely going to continue buying winter tyres, I was already convinced with just using them on cold wet greasy roads but yesterday really impressed me.

Also I have been using these winter tyres since fitted as I never got around to buying summer ones. Considering our summers aren't very hot they were fine and when it rained they were just as grippy as they are below 7 degrees. On the odd day it was very hot you could feel the sidewalls were abit soft but only if you push the car hard, with normal driving I've not noticed much difference. I don't do alot of mileage but the rears still look new after about 4k miles and the fronts are down a couple of millimeters. So far they seem to be wearing alot better on the front (FWD) than any summer tyre I've had, which has surprised me.

As for the original question should they be made compulsory I'm not so sure. Our winters are not consistent and some have been very mild where these tyres probably aren't needed. I do think there should be more awareness about them though and I have noticed more adverts this winter about using these tyres.


----------



## Darlofan

Quite surprising when you check met office figures. Only Jan+Feb temps average below 7C and then only just. London only Jan manages an average of below 7C. 

Also if it's ultimate safety everyone wants then maybe we should all be getting tanks to drive round in.:thumb:


----------



## cheekymonkey

Superspec said:


> I can read, and I think they should be compulsory, I'm guessing you've never used them.


i have used them will i buy them, no firstly driving skill is far more important imo, secondly i dont do the milage to Warent them, are they better then normal tyres in snow yes and i now there not just for snow, but i would like to know how many of you using winter tyres have you suspention etc checked before winter as that plays a big part in how winter tyres perform, infact you can have the hole lot re set to help with the snow, but how far do you go? the best bet for winter is to sell your car and buy a 4x4 with winter tyres on :thumb:


----------



## cheekymonkey

Superspec said:


> The difference is if you choose not to take life/critical illness insurance out that doesn't affect an innocent third party. If you don't have winter tyres and it turns out you aren't such a driving god it is likely to affect innocent people.


and what about if you have winter tyres on and the same thing happened are you going to feel better, infact with that sort of thinking leaving your car at home is the best bet


----------



## peaky

Avanti said:


> Were you caught out yeasterday Peaky?


No I only have a little 1.6 citroen, but with winter tyres on I never spun a wheel once. Well until I shouted POWER :lol:


----------



## cheekymonkey

Superspec said:


> You've never had a problem in 20 years?
> 
> You've never been stuck in traffic for hours because other people are stranded?
> 
> wow dont you get stuck in traffic if you have winter tyres on
> 
> being stuck in traffic has nothing to do with what tyres you have:thumb:


----------



## mart.

cheekymonkey said:


> Superspec said:
> 
> 
> 
> You've never had a problem in 20 years?
> 
> You've never been stuck in traffic for hours because other people are stranded?
> 
> wow dont you get stuck in traffic if you have winter tyres on
> 
> being stuck in traffic has nothing to do with what tyres you have:thumb:
> 
> 
> 
> :wall:
> 
> IF everyone had them there would less people stranded/stuck or blocking up roads. so less traffic jams etc
Click to expand...


----------



## Avanti

peaky said:


> No I only have a little 1.6 citroen, but with winter tyres on I never spun a wheel once. Well until I shouted POWER :lol:


I work not too far from the Alex theatre, so as you are aware many got stuck for hours on the A38 Bristol Rd / Aston Expressway. Luckily I didn't join the sheep to leave work extra early, so getting back home was a doddle, usually I have conti's on my car, a while back I posted a thread as I had some budget tyres fitted (Altenzo) folk posted about 'ditch finders' etc well I'm pleased to say over 12 months later and the wheels are still fine in the wet and snow.


----------



## xJay1337

spursfan said:


> Right, another driving god who can drive anywhere on slicks:lol:


Was there any need for that comment?
Haven driven on slicks in the wet they are not actually as dangerous as they are made out to be, so long as the tyres are hot and there is no standing water.
But in the rain there tends to be a lot of standing water. :wall:


----------



## Avanti

Superspec said:


> And this is the real issue.
> *
> Tyres fitters will store them for you if you don't have a garage. I Just got a cheap set of second hand alloys to put my winter tyres on and they live in my garage during the summer. I put a strong shelf above the garage door so they are out of the way. *
> 
> The roads would be a safer place if winter tyre use was compulsory. You will still get people who decide they are above the law and choose not to have them the same as some scumbags think it's OK to drive without insurance. You will still get idiots who drive like they are the only car on the road or doing a lap of Silverstone. It doesn't matter what legislation is in place we will always be at risk from these people. But, I like to believe the vast majority of the population of this country are law abiding, sensible people and with that in mind we would all be safer during winter months with winter tyres.
> 
> The other thing is that the cost could come down as the market size increases. Winter tyres fetch a premium now because they aren't sold in volume.
> 
> Avanti, if you get chance to have a go in a car with winter tyres do it.* I genuinely think you will be gobsmacked by the difference, I was always sceptical before I took the plunge and 12 months ago would probably have voted no. My Dad has been driving over 50 years and I convinced him to get some this year. Everytime I talk to him now he raves about them!*


I'm in the B73 area of the Midlands, so one of the advocates can tell me of a tyre fitter that will store tyres for their hundreds of customers.

I could get the chance to try the winter tyres if somebody would put their money where their mouth is  And that is not a personal attack, but buzwords like gobsmacked is sheer exaggeration, indeed I am very sceptical when tall claims like gobsmacked are used, this is great forum, sadly though there is a mass with polarized vision, so not all information that comes from the masses is credible. I am only too aware of this from claims of some products and their effectiveness.

No doubt there maybe some added value from choosing to use the tyres as the video clip demonstrates. But for the majority of road users the majority of the time, the outlay does not justify the benefits, after all the highways agency or traffic police spokesperson etc could bolster the case when they have their media spotlight.


----------



## Pezza4u

cheekymonkey said:


> wow dont you get stuck in traffic if you have winter tyres on
> 
> being stuck in traffic has nothing to do with what tyres you have :thumb:


I didn't cos I was able to use roads no one else would dream of attempting to go on and that is down to the tyres I had on. Only took me longer to get home as I was driving to the conditions :thumb:


----------



## millns84

Interesting thread :thumb:

I've never used winter tyres before this year and despite not driving in snow yet, I find them very good in the cold, wet and icy conditions they've been used in so far. I don't see them as a God send that'll make me invincible, but where the car would usually feel unsettled and lacking in grip with summer tyres, I find the winter tyres feel like it's just business as usual. There's a degree of confidence there, but I'm not going to take liberties as at the end of the day, they only really provide a margin of error.

I'd much rather be using tyres which are operating within the temperature range they're designed for than using tyres which aren't. That said, if I didn't have 14" wheels with tyres that costs £44 each, I'm not sure if I'd go to the expense of getting winter tyres as I don't "need" them and never really have "needed" them as I've coped with summers. They're just something I've wanted, and I don't regret buying them at all.

Also, all seasons are a genuine option IMO. We're on our second set of Bridgestone B250's and they're just OK in all conditions. On the family wagon that's fine, not looking for extreme performance rubber so something which is fine no matter what the conditions is ideal. A few manufacturers have also recently launched performance targeted all season tyres which were found to have 95% of the snow/ice capabilities of dedicated winter tyres...maybe worth a thought for those of us who only want one tyre?


----------



## DampDog

LOL... What heated little thread... They haven't actually passed a law saying "Winter tyres are mandatory" have they? I thought it was a question..:speechles

To be honest no reasonable person car argue that they aren't a good idea. They don't just give better grip in snow but a variety of conditions. If you went into a garage in summer and asked for some tyres that don't grip as well as other tyres the fitter would think you were doolally..

But as I've said if money were not an option I'd have a set on now. But the cost of fitting a set is not insubstantial, to re-boot mine would be £400 ish. For me that insures the car for 12months. And magically finding another £400 is just not an option for me.

Now the "must have camp" keeps reminding us that it's not just the snow it's when the temps dip. Personally I'd benefit the most in the snow and only the snow. When it's wet, cold amd slippy I throw my "driving God" hat out of the car and become Mr cautious and alter my driving style as the conditions dictate. So far as I am aware "winter tyres" won't allow me to see through fog, neither will the stop the boy racer driving 2ft from my chuff.

Trying to convince or batter people verbally into your way of thinking is pointless. Depending on individual circumstances winter tyres make perfect sense or are not high on the list of essentials. Neither is wrong.

In a perfect world I'd have a set, but it's not, so I don't. I no longer do big miles so I comprimise and stick a shovel, snow socks, balankets and sensible stuff in the boot and drive according to the conditions. Easiest is I just avoid not essential journeys.

What appears to push everyones buttons is that there is always some idiot on the road driving like a numpty that makes life harder than it need be. But I can't see that ever changing.

It's not a real qestion really, the chances of winter tyres being mandatory are zero in the country at this time.




I'll get me coat (I actually put a winter coat on in winter..)


----------



## Avanti

I wonder if the driver of this vehicle had winter tyres on or not?

Viewer discretion required certficate 18 and common sense required.
video


----------



## millns84

Avanti said:


> I wonder if the driver of this vehicle had winter tyres on or not?
> 
> Viewer discretion required certficate 18 and common sense required.
> video


:doublesho


----------



## DampDog

Blo ody hell that gets your attention.. Thats quite upsetting.


----------



## cheekymonkey

mart. said:


> cheekymonkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> :wall:
> 
> IF everyone had them there would less people stranded/stuck or blocking up roads. so less traffic jams etc
> 
> 
> 
> yea right, those who dont know how to drive in snow will all be saved by then,dont think so not with some i have seen driving in the snow
Click to expand...


----------



## cheekymonkey

SteveTDCi said:


> I think on snow days people without winter tyres should not be allowed out of the house and fined 1 million dollars ..... And has been said many times over winter tyres are not just for snow.


what a clever idea let people who have past there test a few weeks/months ago drive in snow because they have winter tyres on but people who have the main factor of good driving (experience) cant because they dont. Makes good sense that does


----------



## cheekymonkey

NeilG40 said:


> The tyres, there's an downhill off-camber corner coming into our estate and no amount of training is going to give summer tyres as much lateral grip as winters.


have to disagree putting winter tyre on wont turn a poor driver into a good one, the amount of 4x4s i sore struggling yestaday was ridiculous, that was all down to bad driving.


----------



## cheekymonkey

Pezza4u said:


> I didn't cos I was able to use roads no one else would dream of attempting to go on and that is down to the tyres I had on. Only took me longer to get home as I was driving to the conditions :thumb:


I find it hard to believe that you have never been held up by someone in snow. lets hope your look holds out using the roads no one else can, and although winter tyre can help there no miracle workers.


----------



## xJay1337

cheekymonkey said:


> have to disagree putting winter tyre on wont turn a poor driver into a good one, the amount of 4x4s i sore struggling yestaday was ridiculous, that was all down to bad driving.


Someone with a brain!
:thumb:


----------



## sipmurphy

I was searching google to find some cold weather tyres for my other half's car and came across this thread in the google results, so i thought i'd join and share my experience.

Firstly, winter tyres do make a HUGE difference in snow/ice. Anyone who says it's all about driving skill is either uninformed or kidding themselves. The simple fact is no matter how good a driver you are, you can't change the laws of physics. There is a level of static friction between your tyres and the road; if the level of friction in insufficient to gain forward momentum then there's nothing your driving skill can do about it. Winter tyres increase the amount of friction available to stop and start and that's a fact! Of course driving experience is a good thing and will help, and of course an idiot of a driver will have an accident regardless of the tyres, but if you're experienced you should know that in such driving conditions anything that gives you more safety is a good thing so appropriate tyres alongside experience trumps only having one or the other.

I also appreciate that whilst winter tyres are good at what they do, they cost a lot of money and although they offer some improvements in temperatures under 7 degrees, let's be honest it's only when it snows that they really come in to their own. Most of us can't afford the outlay of hundreds of £££ on a second set of tyres, even if they are switched in the spring and technically halves the wear by switching, there's still the initial outlay.

So i choose to use an all-season tyre with the M+S (mud and snow) mark and the "three peak" snow flake mark. Two really good versions are the Hankook Optimo 4S or the Vredstein Quatrak. This year I have the Vredstein on my C-Class.

In 2010 when we had the really heavy snow the car had Continental Sport tyres on and it literally would not move in the snow/slush on even the slightest incline and didn't want to go in a straight line even at low speeds on the flat. It was un-drivable.

This year in recent days with the Vredstein it has totally transformed the car, climbing steep hills and stopping without the ABS or traction control lights so much as blinking.

They may only be 90% as good as dedicated winter tyres in the winter and 90% as good as dedicated summer tyres in the summer, but for a year round tyre, provided you don't drive like you're trying to lap Silverstone whilst on the public roads they represent a very appealing compromise.


----------



## andy monty

cheekymonkey said:


> have to disagree putting winter tyre on wont turn a poor driver into a good one, the amount of 4x4s i sore struggling yestaday was ridiculous, that was all down to bad driving.


Nearly all 4x4 come with eco friendly tree hugger summer tyres, on wide low profile tyres ....... (most people buy them purely for looks) Couple that with been upwards of 2 tonnes... All you have is a very heavy Sled...........

Ive overtaken 4x4's going up steep hills in my punto (it was either that or they would have slid back down into me.....)

4x4 gets you moving ok on the flat but it cant stop you any faster (if anything it takes longer due to the added mass of the 4x4 drive train... or aid cornering when there is no grip to be had

Wonder how many townie owners of 4x4's even know how to activate basic systems like the diff locks be it electronic or manual with the tyre iron / key


----------



## lmorris

cheekymonkey said:


> being a bit silly with this driving god rubbish, but why do it you find it hard getting down a hill, use the right gear to hold you back and slight bit of gas to move you take foot of gas the low gear and a bit of hand brake will stop you :thumb:


I am sorry but you are talking out your  you either seem to totally miss the points being raised or don't have the ability to grasp the FACTS stated. The basics of grip between tyres and the road surface is friction. The snow/ice reduces in some cases removes the friction on the contact patch of the tyre, causing lack of grip (summer tyres hardening due to low temp also plays a part) if there is no friction between the tyre and road it makes no difference what gear you use, how slow you go and to use the hand brake is just stupid. You could have all the driving skill in the world and it would make no difference you CAN NOT DEFY THE LAWS OF PHYSICS.
I thought the problems with going down steep hills in the snow/ice would be quite obvious for all to see but i guess not for you.





No friction = No grip FACT


----------



## lmorris

andy monty said:


> Nearly all 4x4 come with eco friendly tree hugger summer tyres, on wide low profile tyres ....... (most people buy them purely for looks) Couple that with been upwards of 2 tonnes... All you have is a very heavy Sled...........
> 
> Ive overtaken 4x4's going up steep hills in my punto (it was either that or they would have slid back down into me.....)
> 
> 4x4 gets you moving ok on the flat but it cant stop you any faster (if anything it takes longer due to the added mass of the 4x4 drive train... or aid cornering when there is no grip to be had
> 
> Wonder how many townie owners of 4x4's even know how to activate basic systems like the diff locks be it electronic or manual with the tyre iron / key


Very true mate thats why i swapped my 4x4 onto wither tyres.


----------



## Pezza4u

cheekymonkey said:


> I find it hard to believe that you have never been held up by someone in snow. lets hope your look holds out using the roads no one else can, and although winter tyre can help there no miracle workers.


I never said I haven't, my comment was based on yesterdays journey. However, since I've had the winter tyres fitted I've not been held up cos I'm able to take alternative routes that the majority will avoid. Before when I had summer tyres I would be held up like everyone else.


----------



## andy monty

Pezza4u said:


> I never said I haven't, my comment was based on yesterdays journey. However, since I've had the winter tyres fitted I've not been held up cos I'm able to take alternative routes that the majority will avoid. Before when I had summer tyres I would be held up like everyone else.


Single track back roads :driver: 

stopping from 30 on winters on snow.. on a slight downhill






and on sheet ice....


----------



## Avanti

lmorris said:


> I am sorry but you are talking out your  you either seem to totally miss the points being raised or don't have the ability to grasp the FACTS stated. The basics of grip between tyres and the road surface is friction. The snow/ice reduces in some cases removes the friction on the contact patch of the tyre, causing lack of grip (summer tyres hardening due to low temp also plays a part) if there is no friction between the tyre and road it makes no difference what gear you use, how slow you go and to use the hand brake is just stupid. You could have all the driving skill in the world and it would make no difference you CAN NOT DEFY THE LAWS OF PHYSICS.
> I thought the problems with going down steep hills in the snow/ice would be quite obvious for all to see but i guess not for you.
> First snow of the season! Cars sliding~ - YouTube
> 
> No friction = No grip FACT


Heh heh , the camera person is a bit of a poss tott!
Just waiting for a fatality to happen to post on the tube?

Luckily I have my SWQR, I would have shut that road off until it was made safer


----------



## SteveTDCi

cheekymonkey said:


> what a clever idea let people who have past there test a few weeks/months ago drive in snow because they have winter tyres on but people who have the main factor of good driving (experience) cant because they dont. Makes good sense that does


Do you think two million dollars would be more sensible then ?

It's got bugger all to do with being a driving god, tyres either grip or they won't. The fact is when snow falls this country comes to a complete standstill. Other countries don't but that's because they fit winter tyres and they are not covered in snow for 5 months either, granted they get more than the amount we get but if there is lots of snow they either have snow chains or studs.

Maybe wrc should run the monte Carlo with summer tyres rather than one that's specific to the weather, after all they are far better drivers than pretty much anyone on here. Winter tyres also help shorten braking distances which is fairly handy if something or some one stands out in front, that extra meter or 5mph reduction could make the difference.


----------



## DampDog

Just out of interest..

Winterwatch 1963 - The Big Freeze, is on BBC2 at the moment. Now that's a bad winter..


----------



## black v6

:wave:Hi all 
just had to move my works van off next doors drive ..... had a right job !!!! 
Once i got onto the side rd.... the van was slipping all over ....grit and shovel job to get the van on my drive!!!
I've been up my side rd 5/6 times today in my car with winter tyres on with no problems what so ever!!!!! 
Blackv6 &#55357;&#56841;


----------



## andy monty

black v6 said:


> :wave:Hi all
> just had to move my works van off next doors drive ..... had a right job !!!!
> Once i got onto the side rd.... the van was slipping all over ....grit and shovel job to get the van on my drive!!!
> I've been up my side rd 5/6 times today in my car with winter tyres on with no problems what so ever!!!!!
> Blackv6 ��


you obviously don't know how to drive your works van then  :lol: :devil:


----------



## Avanti

black v6 said:


> :wave:Hi all
> just had to move my works van off next doors drive ..... had a right job !!!!
> Once i got onto the side rd.... the van was slipping all over ....grit and shovel job to get the van on my drive!!!
> I've been up my side rd 5/6 times today in my car with winter tyres on with no problems what so ever!!!!!
> Blackv6 ��


If the van is not loaded up, they can be lighter than cars, my old Bedford CF was terrible in the snow and ice, much worse than my Dolomite, but if the disco gear was loaded the van was ok .


----------



## black v6

:lol:
I'm NOT BUYING winter tyres for A WORKS Van :driver::driver:
Thanks for the laugh tho!!!!
Blackv6


----------



## SteveTDCi

black v6 said:


> :lol:
> I'm NOT BUYING winter tyres for A WORKS Van :driver::driver:
> Thanks for the laugh tho!!!!
> Blackv6


You would have to if it was the law :lol:


----------



## andy monty

SteveTDCi said:


> You would have to if it was the law :lol:


Nah work would have to ...

Bet it would go down a storm with the UK haulage industry..........

The European HGV drivers would be laughing their socks off and cashing in with their winter tyres and cheap diesel and LPG conversions


----------



## possul

Avanti said:


> I wonder if the driver of this vehicle had winter tyres on or not?
> 
> Viewer discretion required certficate 18 and common sense required.
> video


What the 
That big 4x4 got destroyed


----------



## possul

If there were bad hills were I live I still wouldn't go up and down them regardless of what tyre. I'd find another route or leave the car.
What your saying is if you have winter tyres you can take the risk and go up and down hills were as me in my summer tyres (don't even know what they are) will not take the risk by avoiding the hill or walking is putting other road users in danger?


----------



## spursfan

Avanti said:


> Ah, at last there is acceptance of choice, they are not compulsory.
> No I have not knowingly used them, I'm not offering an argument not to use them. My opinion is that if you or other advocates are willing to purchase some for my car for me to try, then I will gladly try them and report back. For now, in 30 odd years of driving I cannot see a case for ME to splash out on them when there are other road users that can hinder my journey or collide with my vehicle. Where am I supposed to store my budget tyres in the meantime?


In your Garage:lol:, if you dont have one i am sure some friends may have space for a stack of 4 tyres.
Bring em round here, i can look after them for a fellow worker:thumb:

Kev


----------



## cheekymonkey

lmorris said:


> I am sorry but you are talking out your  you either seem to totally miss the points being raised or don't have the ability to grasp the FACTS stated. The basics of grip between tyres and the road surface is friction. The snow/ice reduces in some cases removes the friction on the contact patch of the tyre, causing lack of grip (summer tyres hardening due to low temp also plays a part) if there is no friction between the tyre and road it makes no difference what gear you use, how slow you go and to use the hand brake is just stupid. You could have all the driving skill in the world and it would make no difference you CAN NOT DEFY THE LAWS OF PHYSICS.
> I thought the problems with going down steep hills in the snow/ice would be quite obvious for all to see but i guess not for you.
> First snow of the season! Cars sliding~ - YouTube
> 
> No friction = No grip FACT


WOW
watch the video again mate you will notice all them that slide have there brakes on (check brake lights) the only 1 that made it was the school bus he didn't use his brakes proving my point so thank you for that :thumb:
you must drive like them that slide i dont use my brakes thats why i dont have a problem going down hills. That just proves to me you dont know how to drive in snow or you you would know you dont brake. Understand why you need winter tyres now


----------



## mart.

andy monty said:


> Nah work would have to ...
> 
> Bet it would go down a storm with the UK haulage industry..........
> 
> The European HGV drivers would be laughing their socks off and cashing in with their winter tyres and cheap diesel and LPG conversions


It would benefit the haulage industry, they could keep going unlike yesterday where everything stopped.


----------



## Avanti

spursfan said:


> In your Garage:lol:, if you dont have one i am sure some friends may have space for a stack of 4 tyres.
> Bring em round here, *i can look after them for a fellow worke*r:thumb:
> 
> Kev


Heh heh , now I remember who you are  
I am due a double garage this year, but winter 2012/13 will well be over by the time I start


----------



## cheekymonkey

andy monty said:


> Nearly all 4x4 come with eco friendly tree hugger summer tyres, on wide low profile tyres ....... (most people buy them purely for looks) Couple that with been upwards of 2 tonnes... All you have is a very heavy Sled...........
> 
> Ive overtaken 4x4's going up steep hills in my punto (it was either that or they would have slid back down into me.....)
> 
> 4x4 gets you moving ok on the flat but it cant stop you any faster (if anything it takes longer due to the added mass of the 4x4 drive train... or aid cornering when there is no grip to be had
> 
> *Wonder how many townie owners of 4x4's even know how to activate basic systems like the diff locks be it electronic or manual with the tyre iron* / key


a 4x4 should have no problem in snow no matter what tyres are on, the problem is they dont know how to drive in snow, most will still have problems with winter tyres on,as you say if they had the experience they would know all about the diff locks etc


----------



## andy monty

cheekymonkey said:


> WOW
> watch the video again mate you will notice all them that slide have there brakes on (check brake lights) the only 1 that made it was the school bus he didn't use his brakes proving my point so thank you for that :thumb:
> you must drive like them that slide i dont use my brakes thats why i dont have a problem going down hills. That just proves to me you dont know how to drive in snow or you you would know you dont brake. Understand why you need winter tyres now


certain US some states make it mandatory for school buses to be fitted with Winter tires :doublesho

eg

Delaware Code - Section 4361:

http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/decode/21/43/III/4361


----------



## lmorris

cheekymonkey said:


> WOW
> watch the video again mate you will notice all them that slide have there brakes on (check brake lights) the only 1 that made it was the school bus he didn't use his brakes proving my point so thank you for that :thumb:
> you must drive like them that slide i dont use my brakes thats why i dont have a problem going down hills. That just proves to me you dont know how to drive in snow or you you would know you dont brake. Understand why you need winter tyres now


Yet again you fail to understand the reson for the video (shock horror)
ITs about friction oh F**K it i can be arsed to explain it, might as well talk to a plank. :wall:


----------



## lmorris

cheekymonkey said:


> a 4x4 should have no problem in snow no matter what tyres are on, the problem is they dont know how to drive in snow, most will still have problems with winter tyres on,as you say if they had the experience they would know all about the diff locks etc


Yet again talking out your


----------



## mart.

cheekymonkey said:


> a 4x4 should have no problem in snow no matter what tyres are on, the problem is they dont know how to drive in snow, most will still have problems with winter tyres on,as you say if they had the experience they would know all about the diff locks etc


WOW, JUST WOW.

your ignorance astounds me.


----------



## cheekymonkey

mart. said:


> WOW, JUST WOW.
> 
> your ignorance astounds me.


ignorance i know all about winter tyres mate and did say they help but a bigger problem with snow driving is peoples lack of driving skills


----------



## possul

I've been down a near vertical in a 4x4 in 1 foot thick mud on road tyres.
4x4 should easily manage a bit of snow


----------



## mart.

I got 2 cars. One has an advanced XWD system with summer tyres the other fwd with winter tyres. 

I drove both yesterday on same roads and the FWD felt better and chose that for the rest of the day.


----------



## impster

Well, for the first time ever I put on a pair of Kleber Quadraxers about a month ago - only on the driving wheels mind, and I'm amazed at the diference they've made in the snow we've had in mid Wales over the past 2 days. I'm able to go where some 4x4s with normal tyres can't go. 

I may well buy some steel wheels for my car, and keep my Quadraxers and buy another pair to use just as Winter wheels. The diference (for me) is staggering.

This is just my opinion though. But I would never have believed the diference until I tried them.


----------



## cheekymonkey

SteveTDCi said:


> Do you think two million dollars would be more sensible then ?
> 
> It's got bugger all to do with being a driving god, tyres either grip or they won't. The fact is when snow falls this country comes to a complete standstill. Other countries don't but that's because they fit winter tyres and they are not covered in snow for 5 months either, granted they get more than the amount we get but if there is lots of snow they either have snow chains or studs.
> 
> Maybe wrc should run the monte Carlo with summer tyres rather than one that's specific to the weather, after all they are far better drivers than pretty much anyone on here. Winter tyres also help shorten braking distances which is fairly handy if something or some one stands out in front, that extra meter or 5mph reduction could make the difference.


other countrys like finland sweeden have to take courses to drive in the snow, its part of there law to qualify to drive even though they have winter tyres on.
not got a clue what the dollar bits got to do with it 
many years ago rallying was done without winter tyres. So you get a rally car with winter tyres on and you would still come second to a rally driver without winter tyres as he is a driving god like me  :driver:


----------



## cheekymonkey

andy monty said:


> certain US some states make it mandatory for school buses to be fitted with Winter tires :doublesho
> 
> eg
> 
> Delaware Code - Section 4361:
> 
> http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/decode/21/43/III/4361


watch the videoo mate the school bus's brake lights never come on and the way it comes upto the junction shows he's not using brakes


----------



## uruk hai

possul said:


> I've been down a near vertical in a 4x4 in 1 foot thick mud on road tyres.
> 4x4 should easily manage a bit of snow


I think what you describe is very different from the situation most road users are facing at the moment. Having said that I agree that 4x4's "should" easily manage a bit of snow but as stated in this thread it's not the vehicle it's the driver that will almost always be the week link !


----------



## cheekymonkey

lmorris said:


> Yet again talking out your


:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

check the video they use there brakes thats the problem, thats what breaks the friction:thumb:


----------



## cheekymonkey

mart. said:


> I got 2 cars. One has an advanced XWD system with summer tyres the other fwd with winter tyres.
> 
> I drove both yesterday on same roads and the FWD felt better and chose that for the rest of the day.


why havent you got winter tyres on both if there a must


----------



## possul

uruk hai said:


> I think what you describe is very different from the situation most road users are facing at the moment. Having said that I agree that 4x4's "should" easily manage a bit of snow but as stated in this thread it's not the vehicle it's the driver that will almost always be the week link !


It was on a off road course so all sorts of rough terrain, was a miserable wet day.
when snow tyres have M+S on then I think they should be fine


----------



## possul

cheekymonkey said:


> :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:
> 
> check the video they use there brakes thats the problem:thumb:


some have no idea to turn into the skid either thus increasing the rate the slide in which ever direction


----------



## andy monty

possul said:


> when snow tyres have M+S on then I think they should be fine


the M+S marking has no real meaning in law ... it refers to the space between the tread blocks IIRC...

True winter tyres carry this logo..












> You will find the M+S symbol on most all-season tyres, on off-road and all-terrain tyres and even some high performance summer tyres may have this designation. However, there are no performance standards to meet or traction tests to pass. Any tyre with grooves at angles and with 25% of the tread void can be labelled as M+S.
> 
> And on icy snow and on ice, the open tread grooves have zero effect on performance. Control of the vehicle comes strictly from equal parts of the tyre rubber compound that provides adhesion and the effects from the tread sipes.
> 
> In 1999, the RMA defined a real "snow" or winter tyre with its severe snow-rating. Car and AWD tyres that pass this performance test and are embossed with the "snowflake on a mountain peak" icon. Severe snow-rated tyres must provide traction at least 10% better than a standard reference test tyre.
> 
> The off-road, all-terrain and all-season M+S tyres cannot pass this test. The M+S rating doesn't mean much. The severe snow rating does.


http://www.snowtyres.com.au/severe-service-emblem


----------



## mart.

cheekymonkey said:


> why haventer tyres't you got winter tyres on both if there a must


Because I've got 2 cars, cant drive 2 at same time. :thumb:


----------



## spursfan

possul said:


> If there were bad hills were I live I still wouldn't go up and down them regardless of what tyre. I'd find another route or leave the car.
> What your saying is if you have winter tyres you can take the risk and go up and down hills were as me in my summer tyres (don't even know what they are) will not take the risk by avoiding the hill or walking is putting other road users in danger?


Possul, unfortunately, in High Wycombe there is nothing but hills everywhere, so we have no choice of what route to take, at least i can get up them now without a problem, rather than having to leave the car where it was stranded.
I guess walking is the sensible option if you cant get out on the roads or up hills
Nightmare place in the snow, bloody hills everwhere you go


----------



## cheekymonkey

lmorris said:


> Yet again you fail to understand the reson for the video (shock horror)
> ITs about friction oh F**K it i can be arsed to explain it, might as well talk to a plank. :wall:


I must admit i was shocked as well at the bad driving in the video :lol::lol::lol::lol: it would take more then winter tyres for some of them to make it through the snow


----------



## RisingPower

Here's one thought, ultra low profile wide winter tyres or much larger profile narrower summer tyres?

Theoretically, surely the give in the larger profile tyres would give a bit more grip for starters, the wider the wheels no doubt the less the ability to cut through the snow.


----------



## possul

:thumb:Learn something new every day Andy!
But to most who do not know things like that (me included until now) would simply buy these assuming they will a car that will automatically drive better regardless of driver input


----------



## cheekymonkey

mart. said:


> Because I've got 2 cars, cant drive 2 at same time. :thumb:


 but you drove both yesterday.


----------



## cheekymonkey

RisingPower said:


> Here's one thought, ultra low profile wide winter tyres or much larger profile narrower summer tyres?
> 
> Theoretically, surely the give in the larger profile tyres would give a bit more grip for starters, the wider the wheels no doubt the less the ability to cut through the snow.


If you want more grip in snow over inflate your tyres then the middle makes contact before the edges helping the tyre to cut through the snow, but with it being on snow you wont get the uneven ware :thumb:


----------



## mart.

cheekymonkey said:


> but you drove both yesterday.


Not at the same time :wall:

I took the XWD out to see what it was like. It was very good actually, it was designed on snow by the swedes but the other felt better in the corners.

So the choice was winter tyres yesterday. The XWD with winter tyres would be amazing.


----------



## cheekymonkey

mart. said:


> Not at the same time :wall:
> 
> I took the XWD out to see what it was like. It was very good actually, it was designed on snow by the swedes but the other felt better in the corners.
> 
> So the choice was winter tyres yesterday. The XWD with winter tyres would be amazing.


i never said you took them out at same time just you took both out yesterday:wall:
I thought common sense would of told you to put the winter tyres on the xwd if you wanted to be as safe as possible in winter


----------



## RisingPower

cheekymonkey said:


> If you want more grip in snow over inflate your tyres then the middle makes contact before the edges helping the tyre to cut through the snow, but with it being on snow you wont get the uneven ware :thumb:


From my experience though, all that means is less tread for the same wheel is making contact with the same amount of snow. Less air in the tyres is actually better, more give in harder compounds.

Problem with the zed is there's sod all weight over the rear + wider wheels = slidey slidey.


----------



## Derekh929

:lol: This is just like RWD or FWD debate


----------



## Kriminal

I'll be honest - if you'd asked me this last year, I'd have said hell no!

Last year I had an Audi A3, and having the TT before that, both cars drove okay in the snow.

This year I've got a RWD....the dreaded Beemer. So considering the lane I have to get up every time I want to go out, I went for the safer option (in my mind) of buying winter tyres.

So, should they be law in the UK?.....I'd love to say Yes, for people's safety....but I'm edging on No, as I didn't have problems with the Audi's.

My summary is : it depends if you're a good enough driver (competent enough) to go out in the snow. :thumb:


----------



## cheekymonkey

RisingPower said:


> From my experience though, all that means is less tread for the same wheel is making contact with the same amount of snow. Less air in the tyres is actually better, more give in harder compounds.
> 
> Problem with the zed is there's sod all weight over the rear + wider wheels = slidey slidey.


more air in the tyre in a sense makes it thinner as the center part of the tyre is incontact with the road and not the edges. If you were to run a tyre over inflated in normal conditions the middle of the tyre would be bold before the edges had even started to weir. If you take air out it actually makes the tyre wider working like a snow shoe


----------



## cocos

If you say no, then you have not enough information about it. It is very important, especialy when stopping. And you may be safe, but what about the car behind?
I live in norway, and its shure not the same, but its iportant to be safe, ao why not use tyres made for winter?

If it is no snow and ice, its no problem, but if it is, then use proper tyres


----------



## Superspec

Avanti said:


> I'm in the B73 area of the Midlands, so one of the advocates can tell me of a tyre fitter that will store tyres for their hundreds of customers.
> 
> I could get the chance to try the winter tyres if *somebody would put their money where their mouth is*  And that is not a personal attack, but buzwords like gobsmacked is sheer exaggeration, indeed I am very sceptical when tall claims like gobsmacked are used, this is great forum, sadly though there is a mass with polarized vision, so not all information that comes from the masses is credible. I am only too aware of this from claims of some products and their effectiveness.
> 
> No doubt there maybe some added value from choosing to use the tyres as the video clip demonstrates. But for the majority of road users the majority of the time, the outlay does not justify the benefits, after all the highways agency or traffic police spokesperson etc could bolster the case when they have their media spotlight.


Why should someone pay for your tyres? That is never going to happen is it and repeatedly making that suggestion as part of your argument is just a bit silly really.

And I wouldn't class myself as part of a mass with polarised vision. Unlike you, I have been on both sides of the fence and can base my opinion on personal experience and fact. You can't.

You can't say gobsmacked is a buzz word unless you have tried the tyres because you know what, you would be.

I'm in Kidderminster, not a million miles from you. I can tell you 2 tyre places without doing any research that will store your tyres; if you care to PM me and ask for the details I will give them to you. It's actually quite a standard offering.

edit: I've just been reading through the remainder of the thread and found other exaggerations for you to pick up on and criticise. Someone used "Staggering" and another used "Amazing"

Do you not think it's interesting that the advocates of winter tyres are the people who have tried them? I haven't seen a single post where a person who has used winter tyres has said they are rubbish. I accept it is unlikely that their use will ever be compulsory in this country but that wasn't the question, it was should they be mandatory and I personally think they should be.

It does make me chuckle that the majority of those arguing against winter tyres are resorting to nit picking and silly comments.


----------



## Superspec

cheekymonkey said:


> more air in the tyre in a sense makes it thinner as the center part of the tyre is incontact with the road and not the edges. If you were to run a tyre over inflated in normal conditions the middle of the tyre would be bold before the edges had even started to weir. If you take air out it actually makes the tyre wider working like a snow shoe


Actually that's not strictly true. If you under-inflate a tyre the casing will deform and the tyre will run on it's shoulders (because there isn't enough pressure in the tyre to maintain the correct shape given the load on it.) It will provide no additional contact area (In fact it will reduce the contact area) and will quickly overheat due to the flexing in the casing.

If you're driving on the road you should always have your tyres inflated to the correct pressure.

To be honest, with all of your talk of the correct driving technique, skill and experience I thought you would have known this.


----------



## possul

Also all these tests done with winter tyres are done at 30 mph.
No chance of me doing that speed in a 30 zone, more like 20mph due to conditions


----------



## Dannbodge

I think it's a good idea for it to be made law but I also think that they wouldn't helo the majority of people.
I feel it's a lack of driver skills rather than lack of driving equipment


----------



## Avanti

Superspec said:


> Why should someone pay for your tyres? That is never going to happen is it and repeatedly making that suggestion as part of your argument is just a bit silly really.
> 
> And I wouldn't class myself as part of a mass with polarised vision. Unlike you, I have been on both sides of the fence and can base my opinion on personal experience and fact. You can't.
> 
> You can't say gobsmacked is a buzz word unless you have tried the tyres because you know what, you would be.
> 
> I'm in Kidderminster, not a million miles from you. I can tell you 2 tyre places without doing any research that will store your tyres; if you care to PM me and ask for the details I will give them to you. It's actually quite a standard offering.
> 
> edit: I've just been reading through the remainder of the thread and found other exaggerations for you to pick up on and criticise. Someone used "Staggering" and another used "Amazing"
> 
> Do you not think it's interesting that the advocates of winter tyres are the people who have tried them? I haven't seen a single post where a person who has used winter tyres has said they are rubbish. I accept it is unlikely that their use will ever be compulsory in this country but that wasn't the question, it was should they be mandatory* and I personally think they should be.*
> 
> It does make me chuckle that the majority of those arguing against winter tyres are resorting to nit picking and silly comments.


Did you read reply number 264? I have a Golf which is on the same floor pan as the A3 and TT, that is from a poster who is reliable and has tried both formats.
He commented that the Audi's were fine in the snow much as I find the Golf.
Indeed you are entitled to your thoughts, my daughters mum is in Wolverley and works in Kiddy centre, naturally it is snowing there as I type is it not?
She has no complaints about the snowy conditions and driving, how can I justify spending money to fix a problem that is not there ? 
So amazing and night and day difference I doubt I will discover, other than my bank balanced diminshed when I would rather spend it elsewhere Xperia Z or towards my next car :driver:


----------



## Superspec

Avanti said:


> Did you read reply number 264? I have a Golf which is on the same floor pan as the A3 and TT, that is from a poster who is *reliable* and has tried both formats.
> He commented that the Audi's were fine in the snow much as I find the Golf.
> Indeed you are entitled to your thoughts, my daughters mum is in Wolverley and works in Kiddy centre, naturally it is snowing there as I type is it not?
> She has no complaints about the snowy conditions and driving, *how can I justify spending money to fix a problem that is not there ? *
> So amazing and night and day difference I doubt I will discover, other than my bank balanced diminshed when I would rather spend it elsewhere Xperia Z or towards my next car :driver:


Intrigued by what you mean there?

If you read his entire post though he comes across as a fan of winter tyres and chose to fit them for safety reasons on his BMW. His view was he doesn't think they should be mandatory not that he didn't see benefit. You can take snippets out of almost any post in this thread and quote them out of context to make a point. Funny that out of 270 posts that is the best you could find to counter my argument though lol

This is why there is a problem....http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-21095132 we're expecting travel chaos again because more snow is due.

There wouldn't be such an issue if winter tyres were mandatory. I think if there was going to be a case made for enforcing the use of winter tyres the government would have to do something to help the motorist fund the initial purchase. There would be significant savings made from the reduced level of gritting that would be required and UK businesses would see far less financial impact (estimates suggest Friday's snow cost UK business £500m), that would manifest itself in increased tax revenues. There could be a grant system put in place (or something similar - subsidised purchases, reduction in insurance premiums etc) coupled with the laws of supply and demand winter tyres would be very affordable.

Listen we aren't going to agree on this that is obvious; and that's fine. But it is unfair of you to suggest that I am exaggerating when talking about how impressed I am with winter tyres without having personal experience of them.


----------



## Avanti

Superspec said:


> Intrigued by what you mean there?
> 
> If you read his entire post though he comes across as a fan of winter tyres and chose to fit them for safety reasons on his BMW. His view was he doesn't think they should be mandatory not that he didn't see benefit. You can take snippets out of almost any post in this thread and quote them out of context to make a point. Funny that out of 270 posts that is the best you could find to counter my argument though lol
> 
> This is why there is a problem....http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-21095132 we're expecting travel chaos again because more snow is due.
> 
> There wouldn't be such an issue if winter tyres were mandatory. I think if there was going to be a case made for enforcing the use of winter tyres the government would have to do something to help the motorist fund the initial purchase. There would be significant savings made from the reduced level of gritting that would be required and UK businesses would see far less financial impact (estimates suggest Friday's snow cost UK business £500m), that would manifest itself in increased tax revenues. There could be a grant system put in place (or something similar - subsidised purchases, reduction in insurance premiums etc) coupled with the laws of supply and demand winter tyres would be very affordable.
> 
> *Listen we aren't going to agree on this that is obvious; and that's fine. But it is unfair of you to suggest that I am exaggerating when talking about how impressed I am with winter tyres without having personal experience of them*.


You mention unfair, let me tell you one thing I have noticed , some folks claim night and day differences or that others will be gobsmacked or what ever other buzz word they wish to use, there is no argument from me, lets suppose I purchased some on your's or others recomemendation? And I was not impressed with them , then what? In an earlier post I said I will pay back twice the amount if I'm impressed, of course nobody is going to take me up on the offer. Because the reality is not going to match the hype.
I have no doubt there maybe an improvement, but as mentioned in the post above it would be wasted money for me as there is not a problem there for me to fix.
I never said people should not purchase and use them if they so wish, but people have gotten along without them for many years prior and many to follow.


----------



## Guest

In my opinion, the majority of people who are for this, have a few bucks to spend on winter tyres. Me - I don't have a extra £300 - £400 to spend every year. I struggle to heat our house, feed my family and any extra money I have, I spend on a nice meal or repairs to the cars. I think this thread is a bit extreme and far fetched to some degree as yes, winter tyres would be beneficial for all in winter, but we all don't have this money to spend every year for a few days of snow. And by the way, I'm a believer on average/good rubber so when i require tyres, I try not go for the cheapest. 

I can see the points from both parties, but everyone has survived with their normal tyres. The problem is the arratic drivers on our roads who think they are gods gift. Nothing to do with tyres in the real world. It would just be something else to rob us if this got taken into account and into the hands of the law


----------



## cheekymonkey

Superspec said:


> Actually that's not strictly true. If you under-inflate a tyre the casing will deform and the tyre will run on it's shoulders (because there isn't enough pressure in the tyre to maintain the correct shape given the load on it.) It will provide no additional contact area (In fact it will reduce the contact area) and will quickly overheat due to the flexing in the casing.
> 
> If you're driving on the road you should always have your tyres inflated to the correct pressure.
> 
> To be honest, with all of your talk of the correct driving technique, skill and experience I thought you would have known this.


best read it again mate i said NOT to deflate a tyre there is no benifit, but check a tyre that has low air in it you will find it is wider then a properly inflated tyre


----------



## cheekymonkey

Dannbodge said:


> I think it's a good idea for it to be made law but I also think that they wouldn't helo the majority of people.
> I feel it's a lack of driver skills rather than lack of driving equipment


spot on mate :thumb:


----------



## Avanti

aaronfife said:


> *In my opinion, the majority of people who are for this, have a few bucks to spend on winter tyres. *Me - I don't have a extra £300 - £400 to spend every year. I struggle to heat our house, feed my family and any extra money I have, I spend on a nice meal or repairs to the cars. I think this thread is a bit extreme and far fetched to some degree as yes, winter tyres would be beneficial for all in winter, but we all don't have this money to spend every year for a few days of snow. And by the way, I'm a believer on average/good rubber so when i require tyres, I try not go for the cheapest.
> 
> *I can see the points from both parties*, but everyone has survived with their normal tyres. The problem is the arratic drivers on our roads who think they are gods gift. Nothing to do with tyres in the real world. It would just be something else to rob us if this got taken into account and into the hands of the law


Some do have the money should they choose to follow that path, what I don't understand is why those really pushing it are going on like JWs, the users can gloat that they didn't skid and didn't get stuck. Which party would bring the usage as compulsory? There is enough attacks on the motorist, there is a big freeze on at the moment, so much for global warming eh?


----------



## NeilG40

aaronfife said:


> In my opinion, the majority of people who are for this, have a few bucks to spend on winter tyres. Me - I don't have a extra £300 - £400 to spend every year.


I can't understand why you think need to spend £300-400 every year, granted my car only has 195 tyres so I only had to spend about £240 including the cost of a set of steels from an ebay breaker, but as I said before this is their 3rd winter and there's still plenty of tread left on them.

Edit

I also bought my in July when the prices seem to be cheaper.


----------



## MA3RC

It's say its about 40% car 60% driver knowledge


----------



## Guest

Even £240 is a lot to spend when I go through 2 tyres a year = £140 max. Still cheaper. 

And the 'big freeze'... come on it's nothing compared to some countries!


----------



## Superspec

Avanti said:


> You mention unfair, let me tell you one thing I have noticed , some folks claim night and day differences or that others will be gobsmacked or what ever other buzz word they wish to use, there is no argument from me, lets suppose I purchased some on your's or others recomemendation? And I was not impressed with them , then what? In an earlier post I said I will pay back twice the amount if I'm impressed, of course nobody is going to take me up on the offer. *Because the reality is not going to match the hype.*
> I have no doubt there maybe an improvement, but as mentioned in the post above it would be wasted money for me as there is not a problem there for me to fix.
> I never said people should not purchase and use them if they so wish, but people have gotten along without them for many years prior and many to follow.


In your opinion.

If people have managed OK without them for many years why do we see news reports talking about travel chaos every time it snows? We haven't managed without them for years. We fall foul every time there is a smattering of snow and we will continue to do so as long as people leave their personal welfare in the hands of the gritters!

Anyway, I'll say no more on the matter. It's been emotional


----------



## andy monty

The British motoring public do not like change there are too many stalwarts which don't like any alterations much like the yanks and their gun laws...imagine if they said from tomorrow all cars had to carry a first aid kit , fire extinguisher, a triangle and a spare bulb kit like some other eec member states :tumbleweed:t


----------



## Superspec

Avanti said:


> Some do have the money should they choose to follow that path, what I don't understand is why those really pushing it are going on like JWs, the users can gloat that they didn't skid and didn't get stuck. Which party would bring the usage as compulsory? There is enough attacks on the motorist, there is a big freeze on at the moment, so much for global warming eh?


Just saw this, this will be my last word!

I'm not pushing it like a Jehovah Witness. I'm defending my position from ill thought out arguments made by people who don't have an educated and informed opinion.

And as far as legislation is concerned, as I said in a previous post, I think if it were made mandatory the government would have to use some of the funds it saved from not having to grit the roads to subsidise the initial purchase of winter wheels/tyres. Once the initial purchase is done the wear and tear is divided between summer and winter tyres so running expense is no more. And with supply and demand being what it is the price would tumble. But I accept it isn't likely to be made a legal requirement anytime soon.


----------



## Superspec

cheekymonkey said:


> more air in the tyre in a sense makes it thinner as the center part of the tyre is incontact with the road and not the edges. If you were to run a tyre over inflated in normal conditions the middle of the tyre would be bold before the edges had even started to weir. If you take air out it actually makes the tyre wider working like a snow shoe





cheekymonkey said:


> best read it again mate i said NOT to deflate a tyre there is no benifit, but check a tyre that has low air in it you will find it is wider then a properly inflated tyre


Sorry, where did you say not to deflate it? Your wording suggests that under inflating a tyre would act like a snow shoe. Mate.


----------



## andy monty

Superspec said:


> Just saw this, this will be my last word!
> 
> I'm not pushing it like a Jehovah Witness. I'm defending my position from ill thought out arguments made by people who don't have an educated and informed opinion.
> 
> And as far as legislation is concerned, as I said in a previous post, I think if it were made mandatory the government would have to use some of the funds it saved from not having to grit the roads to subsidise the initial purchase of winter wheels/tyres. Once the initial purchase is done the wear and tear is divided between summer and winter tyres so running expense is no more. And with supply and demand being what it is the price would tumble. But I accept it isn't likely to be made a legal requirement anytime soon.


Polish lad at work told me that they use the Winter tyres as a bargaining tool when buying a new car.... much like most of the motoring public do here but rather than the "yes we will have is as long as you throw in a set of car mats and a tank of fuel... the Polish and Germans want a set of winter wheels and tyres in the deal......


----------



## cheekymonkey

andy monty said:


> The British motoring public do not like change there are too many stalwarts which don't like any alterations much like the yanks and their gun laws...imagine if they said from tomorrow all cars had to carry a first aid kit , fire extinguisher, a triangle and a spare bulb kit like some other eec member states :tumbleweed:t


not frightened of change and if its a good improvement then i welcome it with open arms, we had 1 bad day of snow there may be 1 or 2 more dont see the need for winter tyres for 2/3 days thats all :thumb:


----------



## cheekymonkey

Superspec said:


> Sorry, where did you say not to deflate it? Your wording suggests that under inflating a tyre would act like a snow shoe. Mate.


it does work like a snow shoe a under inflated tyre is wider then a normal inflated tyre so covers more of and area of the road like a snow shoe is larger then a normal shoe so will sit ontop of the snow more then a inflated tyre, :wall:


----------



## cheekymonkey

andy monty said:


> Polish lad at work told me that they use the Winter tyres as a bargaining tool when buying a new car.... much like most of the motoring public do here but rather than the "yes we will have is as long as you throw in a set of car mats and a tank of fuel... the Polish and Germans want a set of winter wheels and tyres in the deal......


polish winters are way worse then ours so having winter tyres is a advantage, if they had 2/3 days of snow like us they wouldn't:wall:


----------



## andy monty

cheekymonkey said:


> polish winters are way worse then ours so having winter tyres is a advantage, if they had 2/3 days of snow like us they wouldn't:wall:


Strange how both polish lads at work both have winter tyres fitted on their uk registered cars and both of them and their families Fly back "home" rather than drive cross continents.....

And both take the p155 out of our attempts to clear the roads and the way the English drive...


----------



## cheekymonkey

andy monty said:


> Strange how both polish lads at work both have winter tyres fitted on their uk registered cars and both of them and their families Fly back "home" rather than drive cross continents.....
> 
> And both take the p155 out of our attempts to clear the roads and the way the English drive...


they fly because its quicker and cheaper and nothing to do with tyres in any way if it did they would drive home as they have winter tyres on, if they run winter tyres thats up to them may have something to do with it being law over there you know, bet they glade they have had 1 day snow to use them on :lol::lol::lol:


----------



## Mumbles

I voted no as if they were manditory I imagine the, already high, price for them would go up as companys know people will have to buy them.

Plus as others have said some peoples driving standard is so poor that it wouldn't make much difference anyway. I always put winter tyres on my car and I must say I have been very impressed with my michelin Alpine A4's this year.


----------



## rob28

Should they be mandatory in the UK - No.
Do they make a difference for the better in winter conditions - yes.
A proven all season tire would be the best compromise for most people.

Here in Canada winter tires are mandatory in Quebec but not in Ontario. I live in Ontario and don't have them on either of my current vehicles - but they're both 4x4 F150's. If money was no object, it's a no brainer. I'd swap over to winters in a flash.
My previous work truck was a transit sized van and after the first winter I got a set of winters - they made a big difference for the better.

Seeing all the wheel spinning in the UK snow is weird - we don't get that over here. Maybe it's due to the fact UK snow is usually wet/heavy and more slippery than snow that has fallen in -10 temperatures and doesn't melt. The only time I've seen that over here is on sheet ice and tires aren't going to make any difference here.

You may be the best driver out there who drives to the conditions - smoothly, little braking etc - but if the unexpected happens, winter tires may just save your bacon. And isn't that what most most accidents are - unexpected.


----------



## Lowiepete

I voted No!

Making them mandatory would negatively impact on my life. When there's snow
and ice on the road, I don't even venture outside. So, I can't justify buying 
special tyres to drive at other times. However, if I had no choice but to be on 
the road come what may, then I'd definitely invest in them; there isn't that 
much rubber touching the road surface at the best of times...

Regards,
Steve


----------



## Avanti

Superspec said:


> Just saw this, this will be my last word!
> 
> I'm not pushing it like a Jehovah Witness. I'm defending my position from ill thought out arguments made by people who don't have an educated and informed opinion.
> 
> And as far as legislation is concerned, as I said in a previous post, I think if it were made mandatory the government would have to use some of the funds it saved from not having to grit the roads to subsidise the initial purchase of winter wheels/tyres. Once the initial purchase is done the wear and tear is divided between summer and winter tyres so running expense is no more. And with supply and demand being what it is the price would tumble. But I accept it isn't likely to be made a legal requirement anytime soon.


I'm not disappointed that you are defending your position, I don't see why you are disappointed that my view differs from yours? 
As for ill informed? Well as mentioned I have some Altenzo Comforters on the front, a budget tyre looking here they maybe all season?
Whatever they are, they have proven adequate for the road conditions I experience year round. So I'm not sure where you conclude an uneducated uninformed opinion? 
Accept that not everybody is going to follow like sheep to every idea and concept banded about irrespective of the claimed benefits.
I don't believe I will be overwhelmed by their use, and I am not prepared at my expense to try them, 8 of the advocates can put up £50 so that I can try them (I would still be slightly annoyed as I would have to take time out to get them fitted) .

So whilst no one here is willing to prove that I will see a night/day difference, be truly amazed, gobsmacked, overwhelmed etc then I can only adopt a winter driving fashion to reduce velocity, allow extra braking distance, allow extra time for my journey and even then only make necessary journeys. I will be keeping my money to spend elsewhere


----------



## mart.

cheekymonkey said:


> it does work like a snow shoe a under inflated tyre is wider then a normal inflated tyre so covers more of and area of the road like a snow shoe is larger then a normal shoe so will sit ontop of the snow more then a inflated tyre, :wall:


It's better to deflate your tyres in snow, it makes the rubber softer and snow will not compact in the tread and blind it. 
If you over inflate them you turn it in to a sledge.


----------



## Pezza4u

mart. said:


> It's better to deflate your tyres in snow, it makes the rubber softer and snow will not compact in the tread and blind it.
> If you over inflate them you turn it in to a sledge.


Correct but only to get you out of trouble, don't drive for long periods with them like that.


----------



## spursfan

andy monty said:


> Strange how both polish lads at work both have winter tyres fitted on their uk registered cars and both of them and their families Fly back "home" rather than drive cross continents.....
> 
> And both take the p155 out of our attempts to clear the roads and the way the English drive...


Andy, you are forgetting that we have a large contingent of driving gods on here so i am pretty sure those polish lads dont mean them:lol:


----------



## spursfan

:lol:


Mumbles said:


> I voted no as if they were manditory I imagine the, already high, price for them would go up as companys know people will have to buy them.
> 
> Plus as others have said some peoples driving standard is so poor that it wouldn't make much difference anyway. I always put winter tyres on my car and I must say I have been very impressed with my michelin Alpine A4's this year.


Not sure you have your facts right mate, have a good look on the web...
My ultragrip 8's cost £400 with metal rims included..
My normal summer tyres are Michelin hp primacy, cost about £90 a corner last time i bought one.
Now deduct the metal rims cost..


----------



## spursfan

Mumbles said:


> I voted no as if they were manditory I imagine the, already high, price for them would go up as companys know people will have to buy them.
> 
> Plus as others have said some peoples driving standard is so poor that it wouldn't make much difference anyway. I always put winter tyres on my car and I must say I have been very impressed with my michelin Alpine A4's this year.


Mumbles, what were the cost of the A4's? are they good?


----------



## spursfan

Avanti said:


> I'm not disappointed that you are defending your position, I don't see why you are disappointed that my view differs from yours?
> As for ill informed? Well as mentioned I have some Altenzo Comforters on the front, a budget tyre looking here they maybe all season?
> Whatever they are, they have proven adequate for the road conditions I experience year round. So I'm not sure where you conclude an uneducated uninformed opinion?
> Accept that not everybody is going to follow like sheep to every idea and concept banded about irrespective of the claimed benefits.
> I don't believe I will be overwhelmed by their use, and I am not prepared at my expense to try them, 8 of the advocates can put up £50 so that I can try them (I would still be slightly annoyed as I would have to take time out to get them fitted) .
> 
> So whilst no one here is willing to prove that I will see a night/day difference, be truly amazed, gobsmacked, overwhelmed etc then I can only adopt a winter driving fashion to reduce velocity, allow extra braking distance, allow extra time for my journey and even then only make necessary journeys. I will be keeping my money to spend elsewhere


First off, those of us on here that use these tyres are not like sheep, far from it, i made the decision based on the evidence and decided that for safety reasons ie...family, it would be beneficial to buy them. Very glad i did.
I accept that some people do act like Ostriches and will bury their head in the sand, irrespective of the overwhelming evidence shown to them and that they will be stuck in their ways and nothing on earth will sway them from their convictions that they can drive on anything they put on their wheels. as some people have said, they have driven for yeas with no problems so why change!
Everything moves on, old BT exchanges used stouder technology with relays etc, good job we did not stick with them, but, they worked, so maybe we sholud still be using that old technology , that seems to be some peoples way of thinking.

Your quote.." I don't believe I will be overwhelmed by their use, and I am not prepared at my expense to try them, 8 of the advocates can put up £50 so that I can try them (I would still be slightly annoyed as I would have to take time out to get them fitted)"
No way i will pay for your tires or anybode else for that matter, if you want to try them, pay for them yourself you earn enough and i should know

another quote "So whilst no one here is willing to prove that I will see a night/day difference, be truly amazed, gobsmacked, overwhelmed etc then I can only adopt a winter driving fashion to reduce velocity, allow extra braking distance, allow extra time for my journey and even then only make necessary journeys. I will be keeping my money to spend elsewhere [/quote]

And that driving style will get you up slopes, hills etc....same old story....good clutch control, leave plenty of distance, make necessary journeys etc, will not get you up any decent hills etc..:lol:
And you mentioned brakeing, one of the non belivers says you should never brake, not sure how you are supposed to stop though:lol:
so carry on braking, hope you get to work safely tomorrow.:thumb:


----------



## andy monty

spursfan said:


> :lol:
> 
> Not sure you have your facts right mate, have a good look on the web...
> My ultragrip 8's cost £400 with metal rims included..
> My normal summer tyres are Michelin hp primacy, cost about £90 a corner last time i bought one.
> Now deduct the metal rims cost..


What that means you dont get rock salt doing this to your alloys!..









Might help sell a few steel rims for winter use if nothing else even if summer tyres are fitted and you slide into a curb sideways slowly it wont really matter:lol:


----------



## Dave KG

In Germany, where granted they get more snow, they are mandatory - but only for driving in snow. If it snows, you must have fitted tyres with the snowflake symbol (all season or winter) to drive, or else you leave the car at home. Seems very sensible to me, and I would support seeing that in the UK certainly where I live... The number of people getting stuck with the wrong tyres is just ridiculous and they are a danger to themselves and others. Yes, we don't get much snow so arguably it is not necessary but in that case you can still use your car for most of winter, just not when it snows.

The best example of the power of the correct tyres yesterday for me was watching a good friends Vauxhall Corsa, complete with winters, go up my farm track with 6 - 8" of snow without a hitch, ploughing it with the front lip of the bumper. In summer tyres, not a cat in hell's chance would the same car manage that!

Makes total sense to me - set your car up optimally for the conditions, in the same way as I wouldn't go hiking up a mountain in my trainers.


----------



## Dave KG

Lowiepete said:


> I voted No!
> 
> Making them mandatory would negatively impact on my life. When there's snow
> and ice on the road, I don't even venture outside. So, I can't justify buying
> special tyres to drive at other times. However, if I had no choice but to be on
> the road come what may, then I'd definitely invest in them; there isn't that
> much rubber touching the road surface at the best of times...
> 
> Regards,
> Steve


Which is where the German system would work for you - winter tyres only mandatory when the conditions warrant them. If you don'd have winter tyres and it snows, you stay at home.


----------



## Dave KG

Avanti said:


> So whilst no one here is willing to prove that I will see a night/day difference, be truly amazed, gobsmacked, overwhelmed etc then I can only adopt a winter driving fashion to reduce velocity, allow extra braking distance, allow extra time for my journey and even then only make necessary journeys. I will be keeping my money to spend elsewhere


Come and drive up here without winter tyres  Aberfeldy to Rannoch Station would be a good road to start with


----------



## Naddy37

This is the first year that the e250 has been fitted with winter tyres.

They've been on the car since about mid October. I've noticed a huge difference in the wet, they cut through standing water like a hot knife through butter.

Uptil yesterday, I'd not really noticed a big difference in the snow over normal tyres, and TBH, all the major roads have been clear of the white stuff anyway.

Yesterday, they came into their own. I'd dropped a client off at home. His road was covered in snow, and on a hill to his car park.

The e250 was on a slope, a slope that I'm pretty sure normal tyres would of just spun. 

I reversed out with no problems at all, with no touch of the accelerator pedal, the car just did all the work.


----------



## Avanti

Dave KG said:


> Come and drive up here without winter tyres  Aberfeldy to Rannoch Station would be a good road to start with


Gotta be worth the journey for a nice cuppa :thumb:


----------



## Dave KG

I'll put an extra log on the stove then :thumb:


----------



## millns84

Well I've had my first snow experience yesterday evening with the winter tyres and the difference meant that I could get where I was going. I would have had to turn back without the winter tyres for sure.

I've gone from getting stuck in Sainsburys car park in around an inch of snow on Conti Sport Contacts to driving through this in a Panda:


----------



## cheekymonkey

mart. said:


> It's better to deflate your tyres in snow, it makes the rubber softer and snow will not compact in the tread and blind it.
> If you over inflate them you turn it in to a sledge.


sorry mate but thats wrong, thinner tyres are better in snow then fat ones if you deflate a tyre it becomes wider meaning the weight is spread of a larger mass meaning it will sit on top of snow like a snow shoe. Add air the tyre only touches in the centre of the grip. the contact area is smaller, so the weight is 
concentrated on a smaller area pushing the tyre through the snow


----------



## mart.

cheekymonkey said:


> sorry mate but thats wrong, thinner tyres are better in snow then fat ones if you deflate a tyre it becomes wider meaning the weight is spread of a larger mass meaning it will sit on top of snow like a snow shoe. Add air the tyre only touches in the centre of the grip. the contact area is smaller, so the weight is
> concentrated on a smaller area pushing the tyre through the snow


Narrower tyre's are better but your not going get them much narrower by over inflating. On fresh snow you might gain a bit but most of the problems come on compacted snow/ice. That's where a slightly deflated, softer tyre's will be better for the reason I've stated.


----------



## cheekymonkey

mart. said:


> Narrower tyre's are better but your not going get them much narrower by over inflating. On fresh snow you might gain a bit but most of the problems come on compacted snow/ice. That's where a slightly deflated, softer tyre's will be better for the reason I've stated.


we were on about fresh snow, all the problems of the other day was in fresh snow not compact:thumb:. Taking air out dose nothing to change the caratistics of the rubber its just as hard with when you take air out. Infact the cold makes the rubber harder,


----------



## cheekymonkey

Dave KG said:


> In Germany, where granted they get more snow, they are mandatory - but only for driving in snow. If it snows, you must have fitted tyres with the snowflake symbol (all season or winter) to drive, or else you leave the car at home. Seems very sensible to me, and I would support seeing that in the UK certainly where I live... The number of people getting stuck with the wrong tyres is just ridiculous and they are a danger to themselves and others. Yes, we don't get much snow so arguably it is not necessary but in that case you can still use your car for most of winter, just not when it snows.
> 
> The best example of the power of the correct tyres yesterday for me was watching a good friends Vauxhall Corsa, complete with winters, go up my farm track with 6 - 8" of snow without a hitch, ploughing it with the front lip of the bumper. In summer tyres, not a cat in hell's chance would the same car manage that!
> 
> Makes total sense to me - set your car up optimally for the conditions, in the same way as I wouldn't go hiking up a mountain in my trainers.


were you live Dave i agree using winter tyres is a big improvement, where i live we have had 1 day of snow. on that day i did 14miles. no justification in buying winter tyres for that sort of mileage


----------



## SteveTDCi

Wi cannot beleive this is still going on. Anyhooo winter tyres are not just for snow.


----------



## RisingPower

SteveTDCi said:


> Wi cannot beleive this is still going on. Anyhooo winter tyres are not just for snow.


They're for life too?


----------



## possul

We get low temps all year so unless your using winters you could be safer!

I bord on the subject now!


----------



## cheekymonkey

RisingPower said:


> They're for life too?


:lol::lol::lol:


----------



## Avanti

mart. said:


> Narrower tyre's are better but your not going get them much narrower by over inflating. On fresh snow you might gain a bit but most of the problems come on compacted snow/ice. That's where a slightly deflated, softer tyre's will be better for the reason I've stated.


This was from getting my car out the garage and the narrow right of way, narrow as in, mirrors folded in or they will catch on the fence posts.


----------



## possul

Avanti said:


> This was from getting my car out the garage and the narrow right of way, narrow as in, mirrors folded in or they will catch on the fence posts.


In all the driving I've done I've seen nothing like that this winter


----------



## mart.

Wow, looks like 2" of snow


----------



## Avanti

mart. said:


> Wow, looks like 2" of snow


Down by you, I know there was a red weather warning on Friday, the entrance to the ROW was cleared of snow, beyond that just as is :thumb:


----------



## SteveTDCi

RisingPower said:


> They're for life too?


Yes, and if you don't buy a set a kitten gets it


----------



## uruk hai

Thought I would add this for a bit of fun.

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/features/the-mash-guide-to-travelling-in-snow-2013011856544


----------



## RisingPower

SteveTDCi said:


> Yes, and if you don't buy a set a kitten gets it


Hmm, maybe I should then, but that's a bloody expensive kitten


----------



## Superspec

possul said:


> We get low temps all year so unless your using winters you could be safer!
> 
> I bord on the subject now!


Don't read the thread then lol


----------



## Superspec

Thought this might be an appropriate article for this thread, it's not just about tyres. It does make a point about not under inflating tyres though. To me, tyres should be maintained at the correct pressure. Bear in mind that in cold weather the pressure will automatically reduce (the same as it rises in hot temperatures.)

The reason tyre pressures are set individually for each car is to do with the corner weights of the vehicle. Having the right pressure in the tyre optimises the contact area and reduces flexing in the casing. The effect of this is to maximise grip and minimise wear, irrespective of the weather. The same tyre of different cars will require different pressures to sit correctly. This is why front and rear pressures will vary and when fully loaded you should increase tyre pressure.

http://www.theaa.com/motoring_advice/seasonal/winter_motoring.html


----------



## cheekymonkey

Superspec said:


> Thought this might be an appropriate article for this thread, it's not just about tyres. It does make a point about not under inflating tyres though. To me, tyres should be maintained at the correct pressure. Bear in mind that in cold weather the pressure will automatically reduce (the same as it rises in hot temperatures.)
> 
> The reason tyre pressures are set individually for each car is to do with the corner weights of the vehicle. Having the right pressure in the tyre optimises the contact area and reduces flexing in the casing. The effect of this is to maximise grip and minimise wear, irrespective of the weather. The same tyre of different cars will require different pressures to sit correctly. This is why front and rear pressures will vary and when fully loaded you should increase tyre pressure.
> 
> http://www.theaa.com/motoring_advice/seasonal/winter_motoring.html


a good read and true about the tyres :thumb:


----------



## SteveTDCi

RisingPower said:


> Hmm, maybe I should then, but that's a bloody expensive kitten


Maybe, just remember they are for life ... Or take the collar off and deny all knowledge


----------



## Avanti

They are having a debate on BBC WM about winter tyres at present


----------



## cheekymonkey

Avanti said:


> They are having a debate on BBC WM about winter tyres at present


who's winning :lol::lol::lol:


----------



## andy monty

cheekymonkey said:


> who's winning :lol::lol::lol:


You mean you didn't ring in  :wave:


----------



## cheekymonkey

andy monty said:


> You mean you didn't ring in  :wave:


yea 5 times, when i tried for the 6th time they had cottoned on, dam spoil sports


----------



## Avanti

andy monty said:


> You mean you didn't ring in  :wave:


Nah, they are on an 0845 numbr and I only have a mobile, but as you can imagine the debate was similar to this thread with the for and not bothered.
The one guy said he drove for a company who fit them on their fleet October to March and said they are good, but wouldn't bother on his own car, the storage thing came into it too, apparently some places will store your tyres for £10 a month.


----------



## andy monty

Got to love our local BBC radio station phone in it gets the nutters out in force....

They were talking about redevelopment of a former cattle market in a village near us, The reporter agreed to do his show from the area within a few months and see the problem and invite local council et all along.......

and he would be fetching a stick of dynamite and a paint brush....... 

Next call was some irate nutter thinking he was planning to blow her "lovely" village up :lol:


----------



## CChris

When you think about it, "Should winter tyres be made a legal requirement in the UK?", simple answer No, not until all cars have insurance, which is already a legal requirement in the UK.


----------



## winrya

The tyres are far too expensive to justify for me. Fair enough they are better in cold conditions but my tyres feel great in everything but deep snow and when it does snow I walk or bike. I'd maybe consider them if I spent a lot of time on the road but as I don't it is a waste of money for me.


----------



## cheekymonkey

ding ding round 2 :lol::lol:


----------



## SteveTDCi

cheekymonkey said:


> ding ding round 2 :lol::lol:


Ha ha,we'll have to open up part too !

One thing that would be interesting to know is, for the people that have voted no have you actually used winter tyres.


----------



## RisingPower

SteveTDCi said:


> Ha ha,we'll have to open up part too !
> 
> One thing that would be interesting to know is, for the people that have voted no have you actually used winter tyres.


I'll be honest, no. I'd like to try them, but with the conditions really I felt the summer tyres were useless, i'm not sure i'd want to drive the zed anyway, especially if I can work from home.


----------



## SteveTDCi

You would probablyfind more benefit with them on the zed over any fwd car. If people think that winter tyres will let them go anywhere in the world then they are wrong, what I find with my cheap ones is that even though they give more grip if you try and drive like its summer you will end up in a ditch. They do allow you to pull away from junctions and steer on slippery surfaces and where typically rwd cars struggle on pulling away.

The biggest improvement I find with them is the grip in cold damp conditions, it's difficult to provoke the traction control light something that is easy to do with the Pirellis it wears in the summer. Yes I agree it's expensive and you need to have the space for them and to force people to have them is a bit harsh, but there is no denying that we would not come to a standstill at the first sight of snow. I'd probably start by ensuring hgv's have winters as they are the biggest problem when it comes to blocked roads. But as mentioned above its a legal requirement to have insurance but people still drive without that and usually on bald tyres !


----------



## cheekymonkey

SteveTDCi said:


> Ha ha,we'll have to open up part too !
> 
> One thing that would be interesting to know is, for the people that have voted no have you actually used winter tyres.


i have tried them and they do help but this year i did about 20 miles in total in the snow, and although they can be a benefit in cold weather its in snow where there a real benefit. With the mileage i do in snow its not economical for me to have them :thumb:


----------



## Dave KG

I'm using them in this...



















I'm enjoying the benefits. For me, this snow fall will not be a one off, but a regular occurence so the £400 it cost me for four winter tyres (which should last about 3 years) is well worth it. But yes, for those who never really see it, I can see it is quite an expense. I guess this is why I like the German system of you don't buy them if you don't want to, but if you don't have them you are not allowed to drive in snowy conditions. For those only doing tiny mileages in snow, this would hardly be a restriction.


----------



## SteveyG

BoroDave74 said:


> Absolutely agree, it's driving skill, or lack of it, rather than tyres. £400 for four tyres plus fit and remove for a couple of days of snow a year? Sounds a great idea if you're a tyre manufacturer or fitter.


£400 is cheap! It's £1300 for a set of 4 for my alloys! Cheaper to get steelies.


----------



## Dave KG

shakysco said:


> I live in the Scottish highland and every year we have really bad snow , so far this winter has been good thou  I've never needed a winter tyre and prob never will ,its how you drive in the snow and what you drive ,not about the tyres really ....





BoroDave74 said:


> Absolutely agree, it's driving skill, or lack of it, rather than tyres. £400 for four tyres plus fit and remove for a couple of days of snow a year? Sounds a great idea if you're a tyre manufacturer or fitter.


The added traction a winter tyre can give you is proven beyond any doubt in testing... as I reiterate, it is not about bravado and being a driving demi-god, it is about optimally preparing your car for conditions. Take like 4x4s and fit one with standard tyres and the other with winters, and give it to someone skilled in driving in the snow and the one with winters will have better traction and grip - the tyres are what gives the vehicle its grip onto the road so saying it is not about the tyres makes no sense to me! Do you go off roading with slicks because it is not about the tyres, it is about the vehicle?! The tread pattern of mud and snow tyres are designed to "cut" effectively which is what helps to give the traction in mud and snow.

Yes, you can drive without the winter tyres but you just don't know when the unexpected calls for the extra grip that they offer. I'd rather be prepared


----------



## millns84

Cheap? Try driving a Panda - £44 per tyre and £35 per rim 

I think all season tyres might be the best bet for most in the thread. You'd just have one set of tyres, capable in all weathers...


----------



## john90

Wouldn't be without them either, have a set on a spare set of wheels to save on fitting costs twice a year, don't really cost any more than good quality summer tyres and don't wear any quicker so no more expensive, other than some lost capital for initial purchase and spare set of wheels, as summer tyres aren't wearing while summer ones are on. No brainer for me, its all about abilities in an emergency, these have already paid for themselves this year in my experience.


----------



## cheekymonkey

Dave KG said:


> The added traction a winter tyre can give you is proven beyond any doubt in testing... as I reiterate, it is not about bravado and being a driving demi-god, it is about optimally preparing your car for conditions. Yes, you can drive without the winter tyres but you just don't know when the unexpected calls for the extra grip that they offer. I'd rather be prepared


although they help some of the driving i witnessed the other day winter tyre would of been of no benefit. Some driver seem to only have 1 type of driving style never mind the weather. Driving courses in winter driving would benifit these sort of drivers more than winter tyres imo


----------



## Dave KG

Also, I should point out that winter tyres *alone* are also not the end of the story. The ability to drive in the snow and poor conditions is vital also.

In my eyes, discounting either the choice of tyres or the ability to drive is just silly. Both have key roles to play, and should not be brushed aside. 

For those who never really see much snow, fair enough, stick with the standard boots, save the money - winters are not cheap. For those who do drive regularly in the snow, seriously consider them - its not a case of being a bad driver needing a winter tyre, it is a case of being a good driver preparing your car thoughtfully.


----------



## lofty

I fitted winters to my van about 2 months ago, I'm amazed at the difference they make in this weather.Yes they cost £400 but will last me 3 or 4 winters and my summer tyres will much longer.I'd recommend them to anyone.


----------



## Dave KG

millns84 said:


> Cheap? Try driving a Panda - £44 per tyre and £35 per rim
> 
> I think all season tyres might be the best bet for most in the thread. You'd just have one set of tyres, capable in all weathers...


My neighbour's Forester has all season tyres on it... they are better than summer, but his car feels much looser than my Forester with winters on it. It also got stuck where mine didn't and as he is the more experienced driver, I'm not going to put that down to driver skill on my part, I am very much learning how to drive in this deep snow! I agree they make a great compromise, but like all compromises they don't do the job as well as a dedicated tyre.


----------



## millns84

Dave KG said:


> My neighbour's Forester has all season tyres on it... they are better than summer, but his car feels much looser than my Forester with winters on it. It also got stuck where mine didn't and as he is the more experienced driver, I'm not going to put that down to driver skill on my part, I am very much learning how to drive in this deep snow! I agree they make a great compromise, but like all compromises they don't do the job as well as a dedicated tyre.


I agree that there's a degree of compromise - There's always going to be otherwise all tyres should just be all season.

That said, the latest offerings from some of the main manufacturers were very impressive, having 95% of the snow ability of a winter tyre as stated in this test:

http://www.tyrereviews.co.uk/Article/2012-Auto-Bild-All-Season-Tyre-Test.htm


----------



## andy monty

millns84 said:


> I agree that there's a degree of compromise - There's always going to be otherwise all tyres should just be all season.
> 
> That said, the latest offerings from some of the main manufacturers were very impressive, having 95% of the snow ability of a winter tyre as stated in this test:
> 
> http://www.tyrereviews.co.uk/Article/2012-Auto-Bild-All-Season-Tyre-Test.htm


Worth noting that reading these reviews look at the tyre size Some winter tyres get top marks in one size but then someone else tests a wider version for example and they turn out to be poor in that size or weight of car they are fitted to.... Either that or they are tested on the wrong snow


----------



## millns84

andy monty said:


> Worth noting that reading these reviews look at the tyre size Some winter tyres get top marks in one size but then someone else tests a wider version for example and they turn out to be poor in that size or weight of car they are fitted to.... Either that or they are tested on the wrong snow


I noticed that, the Nokian WR D3's I have scored very highly some sizes and near the bottom in others. Can't think of any other reason for such different scores as the tests can't be that different...


----------



## Kerr

Reading a little bit in Autocar this was a fair point.










They also put a Skoda Yeti with snow tyres against a Yeti with summer tyres with 4wd. Haldex part time 4wd may I add.

The 4wd was quicker accelrating once the 4wd kicks in as normally only powers the front.

Braking distances did favour winter tyres stopping 9m earlier from 20mph and producing 35% more grip in cornering force tests.

Without a doubt winter tyres work well in the snow.

However a sensible car driven sensibly will managed most winter conditions we get.


----------



## Dave KG

Kerr said:


> Reading a little bit in Autocar this was a fair point.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They also put a Skoda Yeti with snow tyres against a Yeti with summer tyres with 4wd. Haldex part time 4wd may I add.
> 
> The 4wd was quicker accelrating once the 4wd kicks in as normally only powers the front.
> 
> Braking distances did favour winter tyres stopping 9m earlier from 20mph and producing 35% more grip in cornering force tests.
> 
> Without a doubt winter tyres work well in the snow.
> 
> However a sensible car driven sensibly will managed *most* winter conditions we get.


I think that should be emphasised, and also in *most* locations... as you say, without a doubt winter tyres offer more grip and for that reason it would be the *optimal set up*... why settle for alright when you can get very good? Cost implications, well that is fair enough in the *most conditions and locations*, but in Highland Perthshire I would suggest normal cars on summer tyres were more than simply struggling, they just were not getting anywhere in our snow. What type of depths were these tests carried out in? Pack ice considered? Thawing ice considered as this is very tough and requires a tyre which will "cut" through it, something summer tyres struggle with when cold and they flex less.

I do agree a car with summer tyres driven sensibly will cope with most easy winter snow conditions, and this is what most of the country sees ... but I also would suggest that when you get much heavier falls and varying conditions of fresh snow, pack ice, thawing snow, thawing ice, simply having summer tyres is not going to be good enough compared to a car which is set up optimally for the conditions.


----------



## Dave KG

Interestingly, I might add, I have run my winter tyres now for 7k miles and have barely lost 1mm of tread, suggesting a lifespan of easily 30k miles... Yes I drive the Forester gently, but the investment will keep me in winter tyres for not just this winter, but at least two more. My summer tyres will last longer time wise as well. So, it is not a case of a £400 increase just for the few winter months, but a case of spending now and saving some mileage off of my "normal" tyres and having optimal tyres for a few winters. A cost I can quite easily justify to myself.


----------



## Kerr

Dave KG said:


> Interestingly, I might add, I have run my winter tyres now for 7k miles and have barely lost 1mm of tread, suggesting a lifespan of easily 30k miles... Yes I drive the Forester gently, but the investment will keep me in winter tyres for not just this winter, but at least two more. My summer tyres will last longer time wise as well. So, it is not a case of a £400 increase just for the few winter months, but a case of spending now and saving some mileage off of my "normal" tyres and having optimal tyres for a few winters. A cost I can quite easily justify to myself.


The article also pointed out the problem of storage.

Many people don't have anywhere to store 4 tyres and many places end up charging £120 to store alternative sets of tyres for a year.

I would need somewhere secure as I'm on 19 wheels and a set of runflats comes in at the best part of £1100.


----------



## Dave KG

Kerr said:


> The article also pointed out the problem of storage.
> 
> Many people don't have anywhere to store 4 tyres and many places end up charging £120 to store alternative sets of tyres for a year.
> 
> I would need somewhere secure as I'm on 19 wheels and a set of runflats comes in at the best part of £1100.


In which case, assuming you are not ragging your winters to shreds by driving like a clown, you should be yielding similar mileages from both sets. Thus, to have your car optimally set up for winter conditions costs you (as in the average motorist) the price of storage, £120 a year. Not inconsiderable but not hugely expensive either (in my humble opinion), and certainly a price I would pay. I keep saying it, a little extra to have a car set up optimally is worth it, but whether or not it is worth it for all will depend on perceptions and weather they are faced with. Luckily, I can store my spare tyres so it is only the initial premium of buying four extra tyres which interestingly, the winters were not that much more expensive (if at all) than the Geolanders the Forester was originally on.


----------



## millns84

Don't forgot the cost of the rims, although modest if you're going for steelies (£36 each in my case).


----------



## Dave KG

millns84 said:


> Don't forgot the cost of the rims, although modest if you're going for steelies (£36 each in my case).


Rims? My winters go on the same rims as my summers.


----------



## millns84

Dave KG said:


> Rims? My winters go on the same rims as my summers.


Fair enough then :thumb:


----------



## Dave KG

millns84 said:


> Fair enough then :thumb:


Its just the same old steel rims on the Forester and they are narrow enough that I don't worry about swapping them about.... If it was the Volvo, I'd strongly consider steel rims for dedicated winters as the wide 17" rims are now ideal for snow work (but still, the car would be much better with winters).


----------



## hibberd

Every year this question comes up and every year there are those who say yes and those that say no. Its a pity there were not more questions in the poll.
Have you ever driven on Winter Tyres? That would be the first that springs to mind. What is a constant theme is that people think winter tyres are only for SNOW, thats only a part of winter. Winter tyres are for winter..cold temperature, slippery icy rioads, rain, and when it happens snow and slush. I agree to an extent on the quality of driving, but an idiot on winter tyres is slightly less a danger than one on summer tyres. The idiots in their 4x4 who think God has given them free ticket to drive as fools because its got 4 wheel drives are even worse. Should winter tyres be made compulsory? Would it stop the idiots who drive badly if it was or just encourage them to be even bigger clowns because they then feel even more secure? Winter driving courses should be made compulsary along with skid training, people will then decide if the tyres are worth having or not and make their own choices.


----------



## apmaman

This has been my second year using Winter Tyres (GoodYear UltraGrip 8)

Never once got stuck apart from getting stuck behind cars without them trying to go up a hill. As soon as I had a clear overtaking spot up the hill I camly over took 4 cars all spinning there wheels going 3mph up the hill.

I even took to some off roading to try and test the tyres out and get myself stuck to see how much they could take.

When ever I see the news of all these abandoned cars on the roads when theres only a little bit of snow makes me laugh. 
If you're that good a driver why did you get stuck and leave your car? or sleep in it over night? 
Didn't want to spend that "extra money" on winter tyres? but moan when the UK comes to a grinding hault as soon as a few snow flakes appear?

I think they should be mandatory to be honest. As soon as the temps get towards 0°C they come into there own and the scenes of all these abandoned cars will come to an end.

 One happy, and not stuck, Winter Tyre user.


----------



## spursfan

apmaman said:


> This has been my second year using Winter Tyres (GoodYear UltraGrip 8)
> 
> Never once got stuck apart from getting stuck behind cars without them trying to go up a hill. As soon as I had a clear overtaking spot up the hill I camly over took 4 cars all spinning there wheels going 3mph up the hill.
> 
> I even took to some off roading to try and test the tyres out and get myself stuck to see how much they could take.
> 
> When ever I see the news of all these abandoned cars on the roads when theres only a little bit of snow makes me laugh.
> If you're that good a driver why did you get stuck and leave your car? or sleep in it over night?
> Didn't want to spend that "extra money" on winter tyres? but moan when the UK comes to a grinding hault as soon as a few snow flakes appear?
> 
> I think they should be mandatory to be honest. As soon as the temps get towards 0°C they come into there own and the scenes of all these abandoned cars will come to an end.
> 
> One happy, and not stuck, Winter Tyre user.


Spot on Apmaman. those ultra 8's are awesome in the snow.
My outlook on all this is simple and similar to most who advocate the use of winter tyres......what cost the safety of your family?


----------



## apmaman

Apparently £400 is too much.


----------



## rob_vrs

Just don't drive like an idiot and they aren't essential, iv had no problems running on 2.4mm contisportcontact2's through the snow.


----------



## SteveyG

apmaman said:


> Apparently £400 is too much.


If only it cost £400 for all cars.


----------



## cheekymonkey

spursfan said:


> Spot on Apmaman. those ultra 8's are awesome in the snow.
> My outlook on all this is simple and similar to most who advocate the use of winter tyres......what cost the safety of your family?


all 3 of my children are now adults without the aid of winter tyres and i guess i am not the only 1 :thumb:


----------



## cheekymonkey

apmaman said:


> This has been my second year using Winter Tyres (GoodYear UltraGrip 8)
> 
> Never once got stuck apart from getting stuck behind cars without them trying to go up a hill. As soon as I had a clear overtaking spot up the hill I camly over took 4 cars all spinning there wheels going 3mph up the hill.
> 
> I even took to some off roading to try and test the tyres out and get myself stuck to see how much they could take.
> 
> When ever I see the news of all these abandoned cars on the roads when theres only a little bit of snow makes me laugh.
> If you're that good a driver why did you get stuck and leave your car? or sleep in it over night?
> Didn't want to spend that "extra money" on winter tyres? but moan when the UK comes to a grinding hault as soon as a few snow flakes appear?
> 
> I think they should be mandatory to be honest. As soon as the temps get towards 0°C they come into there own and the scenes of all these abandoned cars will come to an end.
> 
> One happy, and not stuck, Winter Tyre user.


never got stuck myself this year or any year before without winter tyres, dont see the need for 2 days of snow, because lets be honest thats only when they make a real difference


----------



## SteveTDCi

Its not always about getting stuck. Its the stopping 

http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-video/winter-tyres-vs-4x4

I guess the harsh way at looking at it is say you stepped out in front of a car, if it was wearing winter tyres you might not get run over, if it was on summer tyres you might have enough time to mouth you git why didn't you fit winter tyres to the driver


----------



## rob_vrs

Drive slower


----------



## SteveTDCi

Than 20 mph ?


----------



## andy monty

SteveTDCi said:


> Its not always about getting stuck. Its the stopping
> 
> http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-video/winter-tyres-vs-4x4
> 
> I guess the harsh way at looking at it is say you stepped out in front of a car, if it was wearing winter tyres you might not get run over, if it was on summer tyres you might have enough time to mouth you git why didn't you fit winter tyres to the driver


Or brake hard and retain the ability to swerve on a cold damp road where normal tyres have the Potential to break traction far more easily than winters due to the harder compound...... They are also much better on sheet ice (not perfect but certainly better


----------



## rob_vrs

Yeah 10mph, 15mph


----------



## derbigofast

no because if you drive like a c*** theyl make no difference but if you drive corectly you dont need snow tyres anyway


----------



## rob_vrs

They would only be needed for side roads (dependant where you live, me its yorkshire) which you should take care on in snow, and main road are just like a rainy day meaning snow tyres not needed.


----------



## buckas

Drove in snow in my winters a few weeks back, absolutely amazing!!

Whilst all the bellends on the motorway in lane 1 going along twenty feet apart from each other doing 20mph tapping the brakes every two seconds I just overtook the lot in a very snowy lane 2, no slipping, twitching or anything. Did a brake test once home on my lane covered in a few inches and didn't slide, just stopped dead.

Could not recommend them more and something I will always own!

drew

(also far better on wet roads than any other tyre I've had as well)


----------



## shl-kelso

And it was funny on BBC News Channel watching nothing getting up some small inclines near Manchester - no snow on the road but was icy. For once the RWD motors were actually being driven sensibly but had to laugh when one started to slide slowly backward down the road. Not even a couple of burly blokes pushing was getting any of those cars moving. Don't know if any had winters fitted but I'd guess not


----------



## buckas

and judging by the people who's voted no, they've obviously never driven with them on the car! not just snow, cold wet weather


----------



## rob_vrs

Nope I haven't as never needed to, snow socks maybe handy


----------



## SteveyG

buckas said:


> Whilst all the bellends on the motorway in lane 1 going along twenty feet apart from each other doing 20mph tapping the brakes every two seconds I just overtook the lot in a very snowy lane 2,


Doesn't that make you the bellend? Winter tyres will improve your traction, but you should still drive according to the conditions.


----------



## buckas

SteveyG said:


> Doesn't that make you the bellend? Winter tyres will improve your traction, but you should still drive according to the conditions.


Surely it's safer, as your car can go where others can't to avoid sitting in a rolling queue full of morons and clear them out of the way to then return back to an empty road?

If you're happy to sit behind the plebs then carry on fella, each to their own :wave:


----------



## rob_vrs

buckas said:


> Surely it's safer, as your car can go where others can't to avoid sitting in a rolling queue full of morons and clear them out of the way to then return back to an empty road?
> 
> If you're happy to sit behind the plebs then carry on fella, each to their own :wave:


Snow tyres are to improve safety for the conditions not so you can drive faster and more unsafe. Lets hope they dont let you down


----------



## cheekymonkey

buckas said:


> and judging by the people who's voted no, they've obviously never driven with them on the car! not just snow, cold wet weather


i'll say it again (about 4th time in this thread) i have used them but still say give someone who has no clue how to drive in snow a set and i bet they still have problems, driving skill/experience is a for more vital part of it.


----------



## andy monty

rob_vrs said:


> They would only be needed for side roads (dependant where you live, me its yorkshire) which you should take care on in snow, and main road are just like a rainy day meaning snow tyres not needed.


Main A614 the other year here was only passable by 4x4 Saturday before last Saturday morning till they run the plough down it couldn't get my sister's 500 off the Drive it nice narrow steel wheels with 4+ mm of tred....et all just spun on the spot and yes I can drive  yet I jumped in my punto and it just pulled away no drama and out onto the roads to the post office and to work..........

They also clear slush much better


----------



## andy monty

cheekymonkey said:


> i'll say it again (about 4th time in this thread) i have used them but still say give someone who has no clue how to drive in snow a set and i bet they still have problems, driving skill/experience is a for more vital part of it.


I agree with you on that point


----------



## Dave KG

rob_vrs said:


> Just don't drive like an idiot and they aren't essential, iv had no problems running on 2.4mm contisportcontact2's through the snow.


Depth and type of snow? Tried it through several inches of thawing pack ice? Suspect you'd have a different opinion if you tried those tyres in these conditions up through the Sma Glen  ... It is not a case of not driving like an idiot, as I have kept saying winters don't remove the need for skill but they do set your car up optimally for when the going gets properly tough... I reckon most who claim not to need them have yet to see some really serious snowy conditions with their cars. Not just deep snow, but snow varying through its depths, snow on pack ice, thawing pack ice that the car digs into and requires tyres that can "cut" (like going through mud). I've seen lots of great examples in recent weeks of cars with no winters getting royally stuck on the Aberfeldy to Crieff route (as well as watching one corner at no more than 15 mph and still go up the snow bank and across a road sign), though in fairness the council have been kind enough to put up the "Snow, Road not Recommended" sign to discourage folk from using the route.


----------



## Dave KG

derbigofast said:


> no because if you drive like a c*** theyl make no difference but if you drive corectly you dont need snow tyres anyway


Come drive up here in the glens with no snow tyres when there's a foot plus of snow on the roads - not just snow, but heavy slush, thawing pack ice, solid pack ice covered with several inches of snow... not a case of driving correctly, you can drive correctly in these conditions and get nowhere unless you have set your car up correctly.

I always find the "oh, just drive correctly" approach to this very amusing


----------



## Dave KG

Is there perhaps a common theme of those driving regularly in severe conditions favouring winter tyres, those living further south and driving mainly in towns not seeing the need? Not hugely surprising as the latter group will very rarely if at all see severe weather conditions - you could "get by" with normal tyres, making winter seem like a waste of money. Though as pointed out earlier, if you can store your own tyres, the actual cost is very low because you shouldn't be getting notably less miles from winters. Thus you have an outlay, but in terms of miles gone per £ as the years go in, you're not really any worse off. Sall price to set a car up more optimally for the conditions - I'll go for that


----------



## spursfan

SteveyG said:


> Doesn't that make you the bellend? Winter tyres will improve your traction, but you should still drive according to the conditions.


Another driving god!!, boring, boring, boring..


----------



## spursfan

Dave KG said:


> Come drive up here in the glens with no snow tyres when there's a foot plus of snow on the roads - not just snow, but heavy slush, thawing pack ice, solid pack ice covered with several inches of snow... not a case of driving correctly, you can drive correctly in these conditions and get nowhere unless you have set your car up correctly.
> 
> I always find the "oh, just drive correctly" approach to this very amusing


Dave, you forgot that careful use of the clutch and driving to the conditions, that will get you anywhere in any snow:lol:, maybe they have not seen all the cars on the BBC news, struggling today, maybe one of them was one of these driving gods:lol::lol:


----------



## spursfan

cheekymonkey said:


> all 3 of my children are now adults without the aid of winter tyres and i guess i am not the only 1 :thumb:


what a hero..


----------



## Dave KG

spursfan said:


> Dave, you forgot that careful use of the clutch and driving to the conditions, that will get you anywhere in any snow:lol:, maybe they have not seen all the cars on the BBC news, struggling today, maybe one of them was one of these driving gods:lol::lol:


Ah of course, it just needs careful use of the clutch to get my Volvo with 3mm of tread up the pass to Amulree last week  ... Actually, in fairness, nothing was going up there last week as the road was closed with 5 ft drifts! I'll just let the Sweedes know that they don't need winter tyres or studs, just good old summer tyres and drive properly will be fine :lol:

I'm always keen to learn, so perhaps I can be shown how to get a two wheel drive modern saloon car with low tread "summer" tyres through a foot of snow going up an 8% incline, because I'm not confident I can do it myself....


----------



## cheekymonkey

Dave KG said:


> Is there perhaps a common theme of those driving regularly in severe conditions favouring winter tyres, those living further south and driving mainly in towns not seeing the need? Not hugely surprising as the latter group will very rarely if at all see severe weather conditions - you could "get by" with normal tyres, making winter seem like a waste of money. Though as pointed out earlier, if you can store your own tyres, the actual cost is very low because you shouldn't be getting notably less miles from winters. Thus you have an outlay, but in terms of miles gone per £ as the years go in, you're not really any worse off. Sall price to set a car up more optimally for the conditions - I'll go for that


I've said it before Dave, if i lived where you live i would use winter tyres anyone would be stupid not to,but here where i live we had just 1 day of snow and i did about 17 miles. Tbh you only see the true value of winter tyres in snow where i live. personally i see knowing how to drive in snow a bigger factor than winter tyres where i live.


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## Dave KG

cheekymonkey said:


> I've said it before Dave, if i lived where you live i would use winter tyres anyone would be stupid not to,but here where i live we had just 1 day of snow and i did about 17 miles. Tbh you only see the true value of winter tyres in snow where i live. personally i see knowing how to drive in snow a bigger factor than winter tyres where i live.


I agree, you also need to know how to drive - simply slapping on winters and driving like a twonk will see you part of the scenery. Same as the Disco that was planted in the hedge last week tried to corner way to fast and learned the meaning of four wheel drift. I admit I drive slowly in the snow and ice, perhaps slower than most would but I've seen virgin snow (quite grippy) all of a sudden have pack ice under it and the grip change in the blink of an eye.

I think the posts I'm really referring to are the ones that seem to think that you don't need winters regardless of the conditions


----------



## cheekymonkey

spursfan said:


> Another driving god!!, boring, boring, boring..


you do realise the guy was bragging about going fast down the motorway through untouched snow while all the others were stuck in first lane doing 20 mile hour, so your saying its ok to be so stuped because he had winter tyres on :doublesho. Dont be stupid doesnt mater if you have winter tyres on or not thats recklass


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## Dave KG

I wouldn't advocate belting past at speed if there's snow on the road, *but* I have see myself on the dual sections of the A9 pulling into the right hand lane onto the fresh snow rather than the trodden packed stuff - more grip to be had, more predictable on the whole but not a place to be picking up lots of speed!


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## cheekymonkey

spursfan said:


> Dave, you forgot that careful use of the clutch and driving to the conditions, that will get you anywhere in any snow:lol:, maybe they have not seen all the cars on the BBC news, struggling today, maybe one of them was one of these driving gods:lol::lol:


:lol::lol::lol::lol:
half a day of snow which didn't settle where i live still doesn't justify winters being mandatory:thumb: if you want to use them then thats up to you, but personally i would say go have some lessons on how to drive in bad weather you will find they are at least as much a benefit as winter tyres but with the bonus of being usable in summer. have you had any lessons or a course on how to drive in bad weather? i got a feeling you havent


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## cheekymonkey

spursfan said:


> what a hero..


thank you, i put it down to all the courses i did  :thumb: infact at one time there was no such thing as winter tyres :doublesho but us driving gods got through it some how:lol::lol:


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## spursfan

cheekymonkey said:


> you do realise the guy was bragging about going fast down the motorway through untouched snow while all the others were stuck in first lane doing 20 mile hour, so your saying its ok to be so stuped because he had winter tyres on :doublesho. Dont be stupid doesnt mater if you have winter tyres on or not thats recklass


Read the thread, his quote is below..
"Whilst all the bellends on the motorway in lane 1 going along twenty feet apart from each other doing 20mph tapping the brakes every two seconds I just overtook the lot in a very snowy lane 2, no slipping, twitching or anything. Did a brake test once home on my lane covered in a few inches and didn't slide, just stopped dead."
where does it say he was going fast???
And stuped is spelt Stupid:thumb:


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## Tank.

i know they had plans to make it compulsory for the haulage industry to have snow tyres fitted to trucks, if thats the case why not car as well, if not that at least compulsory to have snow socks or chains.

ive heard of another country that when buying a car from a dealership includes a set of winter tyres and wheels in the price of the car, and theyre stored at a place of your choice, come winter you go there, switch your tyres over and they look after your wheels whilst you have your winters on, not 100% sure what country it is though

i wouldnt claim to be an expert driving in the snow but ive certainly had plenty experience and spent more time driving a truck in the snow and ice than i have my car. There are a lot of people that havent a clue how to drive in normal conditions let along in the snow


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## spursfan

Dave KG said:


> Ah of course, it just needs careful use of the clutch to get my Volvo with 3mm of tread up the pass to Amulree last week  ... Actually, in fairness, nothing was going up there last week as the road was closed with 5 ft drifts! I'll just let the Sweedes know that they don't need winter tyres or studs, just good old summer tyres and drive properly will be fine :lol:
> 
> I'm always keen to learn, so perhaps I can be shown how to get a two wheel drive modern saloon car with low tread "summer" tyres through a foot of snow going up an 8% incline, because I'm not confident I can do it myself....


Dave, i am sure there are quite a few Driving Gods on here that can give you a few tips:lol::lol:

Kev


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## possul

This thread would of been better with a, Not needed in my area answer
Which in my case is correct, I'm always doing below the limit on all but dual carriage ways.
There was snow for 2 days yes but all the roads I had used had cleared up by the time I used the road.
In all the years I have been driving, my dad has been driving, my grandad has been driving (yes I've asked) they have never used winter tyres, again in my area.
Makes me laugh when you talk about snow to, then when me/ other people say not needed haven't had enough snow then you go to the, well they also work in lower temperatures. We get low temperatures all year round in this country.
Why don't you wear all weather tyres in the summer? 
Or is there another set of wheels ready for when the sun goes in.
All I can gather from this thread is, I have winter tyres on I can drive faster than you.
Granted some need them (seen the pics somewhere) but by doing this you are not driving to the conditions of the road anyway.


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## Dave KG

My dad had winter tyres on his old Cortina many moons ago - they were not like we have now (with sipes and advanced compounds), but what they had were chunky square tread patterns (like mud tyres) which made them excellent at cutting through deep snow and thawing ice. Even back then, the old hat winter tyres made big differences to cars.


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## cheekymonkey

spursfan said:


> Read the thread, his quote is below..
> "Whilst all the bellends on the motorway in lane 1 going along twenty feet apart from each other doing 20mph tapping the brakes every two seconds I just overtook the lot in a very snowy lane 2, no slipping, twitching or anything. Did a brake test once home on my lane covered in a few inches and didn't slide, just stopped dead."
> where does it say he was going fast???
> And stuped is spelt Stupid:thumb:


the others was doing 20mph he was overtaking them ,they were moving no need to overtake. if a police officer was there who do you think they would of stop 1 of them all doing 20 or the idiot overtaking them all, and would they take the fact that he had winter tyres on as a excuss i dont think so they would of done him and rightly so. just because he had winter tyres on doesn't guarantee he would not of lost control and you knew what i meant by stuped not to bad for someone who's dyslexic


----------



## possul

cheekymonkey said:


> :lol::lol::lol::lol:
> half a day of snow which didn't settle where i live still doesn't justify winters being mandatory:thumb: if you want to use them then thats up to you, but personally i would say go have some lessons on how to drive in bad weather you will find they are at least as much a benefit as winter tyres but with the bonus of being usable in summer. have you had any lessons or a course on how to drive in bad weather? i got a feeling you havent


Doesn't need lessons got winter tyres :lol:


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## possul

Tank. said:


> i know they had plans to make it compulsory for the haulage industry to have snow tyres fitted to trucks, if thats the case why not car as well, if not that at least compulsory to have snow socks or chains.
> 
> ive heard of another country that when buying a car from a dealership includes a set of winter tyres and wheels in the price of the car, and theyre stored at a place of your choice, come winter you go there, switch your tyres over and they look after your wheels whilst you have your winters on, not 100% sure what country it is though
> 
> i wouldnt claim to be an expert driving in the snow but ive certainly had plenty experience and spent more time driving a truck in the snow and ice than i have my car. There are a lot of people that havent a clue how to drive in normal conditions let along in the snow


A lot of dealers may do winter wheel/tyre packages as a perk of the deal I suppose


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## Dave KG

possul said:


> This thread would of been better with a, Not needed in my area answer
> Which in my case is correct, I'm always doing below the limit on all but dual carriage ways.
> There was snow for 2 days yes but all the roads I had used had cleared up by the time I used the road.
> In all the years I have been driving, my dad has been driving, my grandad has been driving (yes I've asked) they have never used winter tyres, again in my area.
> Makes me laugh when you talk about snow to, then when me/ other people say not needed haven't had enough snow then you go to the, well they also work in lower temperatures. We get low temperatures all year round in this country.
> Why don't you wear all weather tyres in the summer?
> Or is there another set of wheels ready for when the sun goes in.
> *All I can gather from this thread is, I have winter tyres on I can drive faster than you.*
> Granted some need them (seen the pics somewhere) but by doing this you are not driving to the conditions of the road anyway.


At absolutely no point do I claim the winters I have on my car allow me to drive faster. or do I use them to drive faster... I do claim that they can get me out and about in this however...


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## possul

I was referring to you dave as one who needed then, if I had snow like that I WOULD have them fitted to my car, was your pics I had seen on here!


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## Dave KG

possul said:


> I was referring to you dave as one who needed then, if I had snow like that I WOULD have them fitted to my car, was your pics I had seen on here!


I asked my neighbours what they thought when I was buying winter tyres, and they told me that they would highly recommend them - they've seen more winters here than me, but I'm already glad I bought them :thumb: On an inch or two or snow, or a few inches of snow, no winters would be fine (especially in the Forester), but when the going got properly deep (and worse when it thawed!) I felt the winters come properly into their own


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## possul

Drove on 2 inch max one morning whilst all the snow was coming down. So not a lot by any means. To say I live on a side street to its very busy and gets cleared up within a few hours


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## uruk hai

Am I the only one who thinks this thread is now doing little more than going in circles ?


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## cheekymonkey

Tank. said:


> i know they had plans to make it compulsory for the haulage industry to have snow tyres fitted to trucks, if thats the case why not car as well, if not that at least compulsory to have snow socks or chains.
> 
> ive heard of another country that when buying a car from a dealership includes a set of winter tyres and wheels in the price of the car, and theyre stored at a place of your choice, come winter you go there, switch your tyres over and they look after your wheels whilst you have your winters on, not 100% sure what country it is though
> 
> i wouldnt claim to be an expert driving in the snow but ive certainly had plenty experience and spent more time driving a truck in the snow and ice than i have my car. There are a lot of people that havent a clue how to drive in normal conditions let along in the snow


i would agree with lorrys having them the weight of them need all the help they can, they are experienced drivers but alot of car drivers don't have a clue give them winter tyres and it will make no difference. it would be far better for people to have lessons in bad weather driving, it would be more beneficial. its poland and germany that have them rules with the tyres, although they have harsher winters then us


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## Dave KG

cheekymonkey said:


> :lol::lol::lol::lol:
> half a day of snow which didn't settle where i live still doesn't justify winters being mandatory:thumb: if you want to use them then thats up to you, but personally i would say go have some lessons on how to drive in bad weather you will find they are at least as much a benefit as winter tyres but with the bonus of being usable in summer. have you had any lessons or a course on how to drive in bad weather? i got a feeling you havent


My dad taught me how to drive in the snow... which many may just find laughable, but he lived in Aberfeldy for many years and has seen many harsh winters in his MkII Escort, his Austin A40, his Commer van, so I trust his methods - so far, so good. But I keep contemplating an official course...


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## Dave KG

uruk hai said:


> Am I the only one who thinks this thread is now doing little more than going in circles ?


I see many threads here do that


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## Tank.

cheekymonkey said:


> i would agree with lorrys having them the weight of them need all the help they can, they are experienced drivers but alot of car drivers don't have a clue give them winter tyres and it will make no difference. it would be far better for people to have lessons in bad weather driving, it would be more beneficial. its poland and germany that have them rules with the tyres, although they have harsher winters then us


surprisingly trucks are better with weight than without, i got down a road last week near auchterarder where all the locals said i wouldnt make it to where i was going, got there and tipped, mind you i was using all the gadgets in the truck to get me there, but didnt make it back empty


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## cheekymonkey

Dave KG said:


> My dad taught me how to drive in the snow... which many may just find laughable, but he lived in Aberfeldy for many years and has seen many harsh winters in his MkII Escort, his Austin A40, his Commer van, so I trust his methods - so far, so good. But I keep contemplating an official course...


official or experience i think its 6 of 1 half a dozen of the other, although you wont loose anything by taking a course except the price of it.


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## Dave KG

Tank. said:


> surprisingly trucks are better with weight than without, i got down a road last week near auchterarder where all the locals said i wouldnt make it to where i was going, got there and tipped, mind you i was using all the gadgets in the truck to get me there, but didnt make it back empty


Weight pushing the drive wheels *down* into the snow to get grip than that skidding ontop of the snow... Same reason as the Forester has sand bags in it just now


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## Tank.

handy over riding the lift axle, bringing it up putting all the weight onto the drive

although we've been told the last 2 winters we're getting snow chains, still no sign :\


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## spursfan

cheekymonkey said:


> the others was doing 20mph he was overtaking them ,they were moving no need to overtake. if a police officer was there who do you think they would of stop 1 of them all doing 20 or the idiot overtaking them all, and would they take the fact that he had winter tyres on as a excuss i dont think so they would of done him and rightly so. just because he had winter tyres on doesn't guarantee he would not of lost control and you knew what i meant by stuped not to bad for someone who's dyslexic


Speed on a dual carriageway is 60 mph, he may have been doing 25mph, who knows? but stating that he was driving dangerously is just ridiculous, you were not there


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## rob_vrs

Dave KG said:


> Depth and type of snow? Tried it through several inches of thawing pack ice? Suspect you'd have a different opinion if you tried those tyres in these conditions up through the Sma Glen  ... It is not a case of not driving like an idiot, as I have kept saying winters don't remove the need for skill but they do set your car up optimally for when the going gets properly tough... I reckon most who claim not to need them have yet to see some really serious snowy conditions with their cars. Not just deep snow, but snow varying through its depths, snow on pack ice, thawing pack ice that the car digs into and requires tyres that can "cut" (like going through mud). I've seen lots of great examples in recent weeks of cars with no winters getting royally stuck on the Aberfeldy to Crieff route (as well as watching one corner at no more than 15 mph and still go up the snow bank and across a road sign), though in fairness the council have been kind enough to put up the "Snow, Road not Recommended" sign to discourage folk from using the route.


I don't live there so not needed, about 3 inch and white snow.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


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## Dave KG

rob_vrs said:


> I don't live there so not needed, about 3 inch and white snow.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


In which case, winter tyres are not needed *for you* ... for us up here (18" of snow level fall, deeper in drifts), it is a very different story.


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## cheekymonkey

spursfan said:


> Speed on a dual carriageway is 60 mph, he may have been doing 25mph, who knows? but stating that he was driving dangerously is just ridiculous, you were not there


was the condition bad yes, was he driving faster then everyone else yes there all you need to course a accident but hes a winter tyre user so you defend him if it was one of us so called driving gods you would be slating him. winter tyres help you in snow it doesn't give you a free licence to do what you want on the road. if the other driver or drivers was struggling then fair enough but they wasnt. Like i said if the was a police officer there i bet he would of stoped him and like i said winter tyres are not an excuse, he would of been told to stop in the lane all the others was using. thats just simple good winter driving sense :wall::wall:


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## rob_vrs

Dave KG said:


> In which case, winter tyres are not needed *for you* ... for us up here (18" of snow level fall, deeper in drifts), it is a very different story.


No so there's the answer, snow tyres do not need to be mandatory.  if its bad don't go in car

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


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## spursfan

possul said:


> This thread would of been better with a, Not needed in my area answer
> Which in my case is correct, I'm always doing below the limit on all but dual carriage ways.
> There was snow for 2 days yes but all the roads I had used had cleared up by the time I used the road.
> In all the years I have been driving, my dad has been driving, my grandad has been driving (yes I've asked) they have never used winter tyres, again in my area.
> Makes me laugh when you talk about snow to, then when me/ other people say not needed haven't had enough snow then you go to the, well they also work in lower temperatures. We get low temperatures all year round in this country.
> Why don't you wear all weather tyres in the summer?
> Or is there another set of wheels ready for when the sun goes in.
> All I can gather from this thread is, I have winter tyres on I can drive faster than you.
> Granted some need them (seen the pics somewhere) but by doing this you are not driving to the conditions of the road anyway.


What a load of claptrap you talk mate...
1...they do work better in cold weather from 7c downwards....Fact
2...I use Summer tyres in when the temperatures are averaging over the 7-8c, all season tyres are not as good as dedicated tyres, again that's fact.
3...we get temperatures that average below 7c for 4 months of the year, check the met office stats.
4...where have i mentioned that i can go faster? and define faster to me.
If you mean that going faster is going past numptys like you stuck on a hill spinning and going nowhere, then yes, i am going faster than you, but my speed will probably be about 10mph, your's, say 0mph 
5...this quote makes no sense...
"Granted some need them (seen the pics somewhere) but by doing this you are not driving to the conditions of the road anyway.[/QUOTE]"
Are you saying that someone like Dave KG who is using them in the highlands is not driving to the conditions of the road?, again, please explain because you make no sense in any of your points.


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## Dave KG

rob_vrs said:


> No so there's the answer, snow tyres do not need to be mandatory.  if its bad don't go in car
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


I believe you said earlier that they were not necessary...



rob_vrs said:


> Just don't drive like an idiot and they aren't essential, iv had no problems running on 2.4mm contisportcontact2's through the snow.


The implication here that winters are not necessary when in fact, in sever weather, they are.

In the answer to whether or not they should be mandatory, read back to my earlier posts for my thoughts on that - I would support the German approach. By all means don't have them, but once it snows you are not allowed to use your car unless you have suitable tyres with the snowflake symbol. Simples - means that those who don't want to spend the extra don't go out in the tougher conditions. Alas, I don't have the option not to use my car in the snow, when it snows I still need to get to work and there aren't any buses near me!


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## rob_vrs

Dave KG said:


> I believe you said earlier that they were not necessary, just knowing how to drive would suffice (or words to that effect anyway) ...
> 
> The implication here that winters are not necessary when in fact, in sever weather, they are.
> 
> In the answer to whether or not they should be mandatory, read back to my earlier posts for my thoughts on that - I would support the German approach. By all means don't have them, but once it snows you are not allowed to use your car unless you have suitable tyres with the snowflake symbol. Simples - means that those who don't want to spend the extra don't go out in the tougher conditions. Alas, I don't have the option not to use my car in the snow, when it snows I still need to get to work and there aren't any buses near me!


It's obvious to me it depends where you live, so as I say there is no need for them to be mandatory, as careful driving is sufficient to be safe on the roads.

I don't mind spending the money but why spend it when I don't need to that's a waste. I'm allowed to use my car when I want, I also have legs and can walk.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


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## spursfan

cheekymonkey said:


> was the condition bad yes, was he driving faster then everyone else yes there all you need to course a accident but hes a winter tyre user so you defend him if it was one of us so called driving gods you would be slating him. winter tyres help you in snow it doesn't give you a free licence to do what you want on the road. if the other driver or drivers was struggling then fair enough but they wasnt. Like i said if the was a police officer there i bet he would of stoped him and like i said winter tyres are not an excuse, he would of been told to stop in the lane all the others was using. thats just simple good winter driving sense :wall::wall:


why would a copper stop him if he was going past cars that were going 20mph?, again, were you there? do you know if the road was dangerous?, it may have been for the likes of you but he may have felt that the better grip offered him the chance to actually move into the other lane at a safe speed of 20+.
where does it say anywhere that driving on winter tyres gives you a license to do anything on the road?
Are you making things up here, or just being a troll?


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## Dave KG

rob_vrs said:


> It's obvious to me it depends where you live, so as I say there is no need for them to be mandatory, as careful driving is sufficient to be safe on the roads.
> 
> I don't mind spending the money but why spend it when I don't need to that's a waste. I'm allowed to use my car when I want, I also have legs and can walk.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


But here is the issue - careful driving is not sufficient on some of our roads, yet you can still go out with standard tyres and get stuck and cause major issues for those who have winters and can make progress because they have set their cars up for the conditions. If you were up here, you would need the winters in quite a few conditions or life would be much more difficult, and I aint walking 22 miles to work  Ensuring *all* cars using the roads in severe conditions were better prepared for it would make great steps to avoid the all too familiar scences of a few inches of snow and the motorways and other roads grinding to a halt, and up here, would avoid people with the wrong tyres getting stuck in severe conditions.

Mandatory for driving in severe weather, I think winters should be - or perhaps have "snow routes", so the A826 for example would be a road only for correctly equipped cars when the snow falls.


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## cheekymonkey

spursfan said:


> why would a copper stop him if he was going past cars that were going 20mph?, again, were you there? do you know if the road was dangerous?, it may have been for the likes of you but he may have felt that the better grip offered him the chance to actually move into the other lane at a safe speed of 20+.
> where does it say anywhere that driving on winter tyres gives you a license to do anything on the road?
> Are you making things up here, or just being a troll?


:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:
so you are saying its ok to speed because he had winters on, thought so 
if there is a steady stream of traffic using 1 lane of a dual carriage way except for 1 car in the other lane, a police officer wouldn't think i bet that guys got winter tyres on. He would think look at that tw*t in a rush being stupid enough to drive on untouched snow. we'll pull him and have a word what he is doing is dangerous and may course an accident. he is not driving to the conditions or he would be going at a safe speed like everyone else, i take it you have not done any advanced driving courses or winter driving courses then?

of course the road was dangerous it was snowing and only 1 lane was being used

troll :lol::lol::lol::lol: is that the best you can do. have i had i personal go at you mate, thats the second one you have thrown at me. grow up just because i have a diffrent view to you does not give you a reason to throw insults, its just soooooooo childish


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## Superspec

People still not getting that winter tyres are NOT snow tyres! They make a big difference below 7 degrees and yes, you could argue that if you adapt your driving style you don't need them. However, I consider myself a good driver - not a driving god - but a skilled, very aware, safe driver. This year is the first year I have used winter tyres and they offer significantly more grip in cold conditions that summer tyres.

Many people have said there are no problems in the UK and if that were true we would never see items on the news about people sleeping in their cars, or traffic chaos because of a centimetre of snow. These aren't caused by people who can't drive in bad conditions, they are caused by poor selection of tyres. If winter tyres were mandatory in this country we wouldn't have the issues we have. 

Last year I visited my folks up north and couldn't get the car out of the cul-de-sac because of the snow. It took 3 people to push me out. This year I happened to be there in the snow, in a BMW, and got out on my own with no drama. 

I think they should be mandatory and not just in snow. They are safer than summer tyres below 7 degrees, simple as that.


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## andy monty

cheekymonkey said:


> :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:
> so you are saying its ok to speed because he had winters on, thought so
> if there is a steady stream of traffic using 1 lane of a dual carriage way except for 1 car in the other lane, a police officer wouldn't think i bet that guys got winter tyres on. He would think look at that tw*t in a rush being stupid enough to drive on untouched snow. we'll pull him and have a word what he is doing is dangerous and may course an accident. he is not driving to the conditions or he would be going at a safe speed like everyone else, i take it you have not done any advanced driving courses or winter driving courses then?
> 
> of course the road was dangerous it was snowing and only 1 lane was being used


Think i'd rather be in lane 2 or 2/3 you only have to watch the numptys in the inside lane driving bumper to bumper if one brakes hard you get car after car piling into the back of each other as they all follow blindly like sheep on packed snow fresh snow generally has more grip...... try making a snow ball on packed snow... then on fresh.... the sipes pick up snow as the tyre rotates then grips the snow under the wheel

Why do the motorways often get down to one lane?????

because 99% of the motoring public do not equip their cars correctly and all stick in lane 1........ this in turn leads to the salt that the council spends a fortune on spreading been stuck undisturbed under the snow rather than been mixed in with the snow helping it work to melt it...



> Will salt melt snow?
> No. Salt doesn't directly melt snow as it firstly has to mix with the snow to form a saline solution and lower the melting point. If snow is predicted, salt is spread in advance so when the first snow falls it can start to mix with salt to create a saline solution which can reduce the build up (accumulation) of snow and prevent the formation of ice.
> 
> However in prolonged periods of snowfall the snow can fall at a rate faster than the salt can mix with the snow which means the snow may accumulate. Accumulated snow will have to be ploughed away from the roads or cleared in the pedestrian areas, but this is made much easier by salt spread in advance of the snowfall as the salt already applied reduces the likelihood of the snow freezing on the surface.
> 
> Placing salt on top of snow which has already fallen has limited benefits. Ideally, snow should be cleared before salt is applied to the road or pedestrian area.
> 
> When is the best time to spread salt?
> This depends on a variety of factors. When we know with certainly from the weather forecast the roads will require gritting treatment, where possible we carry out the gritting treatment in the evening at approximately 6.30pm and / or in the morning at approximately 4.30am. Gritting at this time ensures the best performance of the grit. Spreading salt at these times also means the roads are treated in advance of peak traffic flows, before the times where frost and ice will form, and when there will be enough traffic on the roads to help the salt mix with the moisture to form a saline solution.
> 
> Where the weather forecast cannot confirm with certainty that a treatment will be needed, we will continuously monitor the weather data and order a grit treatment only if it is needed. If the time of salt spreading coincides with the rush hours, the gritters can be severely delayed and get stuck in traffic, so we always try to avoid gritting during rush hours wherever possible. Difficulties can arise when rain is forecast to continue right up to the time of freezing or when the rain is forecast to turn to snow. In these circumstances the gritters must wait until the rain has stopped or the salt will be washed away.


http://www.rochdale.gov.uk/parking_..._winter_service/salt_-_popular_questions.aspx


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## rob_vrs

If someone brakes and you couldn't stop, would you not swerve to the "empty" lanes that would be 2 and 3?


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## Dave KG

rob_vrs said:


> If someone brakes and you couldn't stop, would you not swerve to the "empty" lanes that would be 2 and 3?
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


Braking and swerving on pack ice from the packed snow that's been driven on my many cars - good luck. Making sudden movements in snow and ice is the best way to loose all control, you should always be in a position where you have loads of room to make your moves steadily.


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## rob_vrs

Dave KG said:


> Braking and swerving on pack ice from the packed snow that's been driven on my many cars - good luck. Making sudden movements in snow and ice is the best way to loose all control, you should always be in a position where you have loads of room to make your moves steadily.


We are on about a motorway are we not? With 1 lane clear that everyone is using, you may spin but won't hit car in front if done correctly.

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## Dave KG

rob_vrs said:


> We are on about a motorway are we not? With 1 lane clear that everyone is using, you may spin but won't hit car in front if done correctly.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


Or be collected by the car behind...? Why put yourself into a spin? Common sense to me dictates to stay in lane 2 or 3 on fresh snow which offers more grip leaving plenty of room around myself so that I don't have to "do it correctly" and spin. I can make my move gently, keep my car facing the right way and avoid problems following the prevention better than cure technique


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## andy monty

rob_vrs said:


> If someone brakes and you couldn't stop, would you not swerve to the "empty" lanes that would be 2 and 3?
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


was on about this with a mate the other year when he just passed his test any how take one big farm yard......... which had been packed down with hgvs all day

one astra with abs........

brake hard get the abs on (as most will do in panic) and steer As all the books say ABS will let you steer round an obstacle.....

But with no / very diminished grip and the large lump of metal at the front (engine) the car just slid in a straight line..... even when applying a good amount of lock.....

As above every thing gently even then it still wanted to go straight.......

then switched to my car (on winters) and you could turn much sharper and the abs did what it would do on a damp greasy autumn day on summers......

((not that you should need to get into that situation if driving to the conditions)) but since 6 people manage to do a nose to tail pile up in a 20mph limit outside a primary school near our house on snow the other week it does happen all too easily and they could have probably swerved out into the oncoming lane as the line was formed by the crossing patrol stopping traffic ))


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## cheekymonkey

Superspec said:


> People still not getting that winter tyres are NOT snow tyres! They make a big difference below 7 degrees and yes, you could argue that if you adapt your driving style you don't need them. However, I consider myself a good driver - not a driving god - but a skilled, very aware, safe driver. This year is the first year I have used winter tyres and they offer significantly more grip in cold conditions that summer tyres.
> 
> Many people have said there are no problems in the UK and if that were true we would never see items on the news about people sleeping in their cars, or traffic chaos because of a centimetre of snow. These aren't caused by people who can't drive in bad conditions, they are caused by poor selection of tyres. If winter tyres were mandatory in this country we wouldn't have the issues we have.
> 
> Last year I visited my folks up north and couldn't get the car out of the cul-de-sac because of the snow. It took 3 people to push me out. This year I happened to be there in the snow, in a BMW, and got out on my own with no drama.
> 
> I think they should be mandatory and not just in snow. They are safer than summer tyres below 7 degrees, simple as that.


and as said many time the only true benefit you get from winter tyres is in the snow under 7 not much of a difference and a good experience driver will suit them conditions better then a novice with winters on. this yesr i covered about 17miles in snow without a problem so should winter tyres be mandatory no not in my case not needed


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## rob_vrs

andy monty said:


> was on about this with a mate the other year when he just passed his test any how take one big farm yard......... which had been packed down with hgvs all day
> 
> one astra with abs........
> 
> brake hard get the abs on (as most will do in panic) and steer As all the books say ABS will let you steer round an obstacle.....
> 
> But with no / very diminished grip and the large lump of metal at the front (engine) the car just slid in a straight line..... even when applying a good amount of lock.....
> 
> As above every thing gently even then it still wanted to go straight.......
> 
> then switched to my car (on winters) and you could turn much sharper and the abs did what it would do on a damp greasy autumn day on summers......
> 
> ((not that you should need to get into that situation if driving to the conditions)) but since 6 people manage to do a nose to tail pile up in a 20mph limit outside a primary school near our house on snow the other week it does happen))


Don't brake or turn sharp stay calm and smooth

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


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## Dave KG

andy monty said:


> was on about this with a mate the other year when he just passed his test any how take one big farm yard......... which had been packed down with hgvs all day
> 
> one astra with abs........
> 
> brake hard get the abs on (as most will do in panic) and steer As all the books say ABS will let you steer round an obstacle.....
> 
> But with no / very diminished grip and the large lump of metal at the front (engine) the car just slid in a straight line..... even when applying a good amount of lock.....
> 
> As above every thing gently even then it still wanted to go straight.......
> 
> then switched to my car (on winters) and you could turn much sharper and the abs did what it would do on a damp greasy autumn day on summers......
> 
> ((not that you should need to get into that situation if driving to the conditions)) but since 6 people manage to do a nose to tail pile up in a 20mph limit outside a primary school near our house on snow the other week it does happen all too easily ))


Interesting little experiment with my Volvo's ABS - on ice when *all four wheels locked* at 10 mph, the system appeared to have thought the car was stationary and the ABS system stopped working and the car slid with all four wheels locked! Not helpful!


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## cheekymonkey

andy monty said:


> Why do the motorways often get down to one lane?????
> 
> because 99% of the motoring public do not equip their cars correctly and all stick in lane 1........ this in turn leads to the salt that the council spends a fortune on spreading been stuck undisturbed under the snow rather than been mixed in with the snow helping it work to melt it...
> 
> is it or are they just driving to the conditions being safe and responsible.


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## rob_vrs

Dave KG said:


> Interesting little experiment with my Volvo's ABS - on ice when *all four wheels locked* at 10 mph, the system appeared to have thought the car was stationary and the ABS system stopped working and the car slid with all four wheels locked! Not helpful!


Take you foot of the brake

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## cheekymonkey

Dave KG said:


> Braking and swerving on pack ice from the packed snow that's been driven on my many cars - good luck. Making sudden movements in snow and ice is the best way to loose all control, you should always be in a position where you have loads of room to make your moves steadily.


but lane 1 wasn't packed ice it would of had 2 tracks from the tyres giving great contact to the road which means better grip.


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## andy monty

rob_vrs said:


> Don't brake or turn sharp stay calm and smooth
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


Oh i know that and try to do it.... Problem is you only have to look on the likes of facebook to how many peoples cars "skidded" and they get all worked up about it. People panic and having probably never been shown what to do = disaster waiting to happen.. Which is what i was trying to get across to my mate.... you learn by trying and seeing what happens.... Ideally in a place off the road away from anyone or any thing.... I think some sort of skid pan lesson ought to be part of the driving test....



Dave KG said:


> Interesting little experiment with my Volvo's ABS - on ice when *all four wheels locked* at 10 mph, the system appeared to have thought the car was stationary and the ABS system stopped working and the car slid with all four wheels locked! Not helpful!


All the more reason to drive faster than all those doing 10mph so the abs and esp can come to life


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## Dave KG

rob_vrs said:


> Take you foot of the brake
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


Read the word "experiment"


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## andy monty

cheekymonkey said:


> but lane 1 wasn't packed ice it would of had 2 tracks from the tyres giving great contact to the road which means better grip.


or it could have been black ice from where the slush had expelled all the salt... As your aware the conditions can change very rapidly :driver:


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## Dave KG

rob_vrs said:


> Don't brake or turn sharp stay calm and smooth
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


And this will work on roads which are "tracked" with a few inches of snow, you try to steer out of the tracks - again, good luck


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## Dave KG

andy monty said:


> or it could have been black ice from where the slush had expelled all the salt... As your aware the conditions can change very rapidly :driver:


Remember the M8 when it was like that - two tracks down the road, black ice in the tracks and it was lethal.


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## rob_vrs

Dave KG said:


> And this will work on roads which are "tracked" with a few inches of snow, you try to steer out of the tracks - again, good luck


Accelerate

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## Dave KG

rob_vrs said:


> Accelerate
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


Ok then  Perhaps you could demonstrate this for me :thumb: I have seen this attempted a couple of years ago on the M8 - the car went sideways in front of me and finished on the hard shoulder... On a front drive car accelerating will spin the front wheels and churn the tracks while the car still goes forwards. On a rear drive car, it gives the tail a tendancy to swing into the tracks and churn while the front remains locked into the tracks... snow is much more difficult to "climb out of" than many people think in tracks, especially when it is a few inches deep.

Surely the common sense approach would be to have lots of room, or be on the virgin snow where more grip exists...


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## cheekymonkey

Dave KG said:


> But here is the issue - careful driving is not sufficient on some of our roads, yet you can still go out with standard tyres and get stuck and cause major issues for those who have winters and can make progress because they have set their cars up for the conditions. If you were up here, you would need the winters in quite a few conditions or life would be much more difficult, and I aint walking 22 miles to work  Ensuring *all* cars using the roads in severe conditions were better prepared for it would make great steps to avoid the all too familiar scences of a few inches of snow and the motorways and other roads grinding to a halt, and up here, would avoid people with the wrong tyres getting stuck in severe conditions.
> 
> Mandatory for driving in severe weather, I think winters should be - or perhaps have "snow routes", so the A826 for example would be a road only for correctly equipped cars when the snow falls.


but the cars being better prepped is only half the story if the driver doesn't no how to drive in snow he's got no chance, so should winter tyres be mandatory, would only work if people also learned how to drive in bad weather


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## rob_vrs

Dave KG said:


> Hahahaha! Ok then  Perhaps you could demonstrate this for me :thumb: I have seen this attempted a couple of years ago on the M8 - the car went sideways in front of me and finished on the hard shoulder...


Was no problem, didn't hit anything ended in a safe place

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## cheekymonkey

andy monty said:


> or it could have been black ice from where the slush had expelled all the salt... As your aware the conditions can change very rapidly :driver:


wasn't cold enough today and the traffic to heavy for it to happen


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## Dave KG

cheekymonkey said:


> but the cars being better prepped is only half the story if the driver doesn't no how to drive in snow he's got no chance, so should winter tyres be mandatory, would only work if people also learned how to drive in bad weather


Indeed - so we could get rid of the daft driving theory test and replace it with some training on how to drive in adverse weather :thumb:


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## cheekymonkey

Dave KG said:


> Indeed - so we could get rid of the daft driving theory test and replace it with some training on how to drive in adverse weather :thumb:


that would be a step in the right direction


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## hibberd

Dave KG said:


> In Germany, where granted they get more snow, they are mandatory - but only for driving in snow. If it snows, you must have fitted tyres with the snowflake symbol (all season or winter) to drive, or else you leave the car at home. Seems very sensible to me, and I would support seeing that in the UK certainly where I live... The number of people getting stuck with the wrong tyres is just ridiculous and they are a danger to themselves and others. Yes, we don't get much snow so arguably it is not necessary but in that case you can still use your car for most of winter, just not when it snows.
> 
> The best example of the power of the correct tyres yesterday for me was watching a good friends Vauxhall Corsa, complete with winters, go up my farm track with 6 - 8" of snow without a hitch, ploughing it with the front lip of the bumper. In summer tyres, not a cat in hell's chance would the same car manage that!
> 
> Makes total sense to me - set your car up optimally for the conditions, in the same way as I wouldn't go hiking up a mountain in my trainers.


In germany its slightly more complex than that, if you have an accident caused by the weather conditions and you didnt have the correct tyres you are automatically deemed responsible for the accident and you will find your insurance will refuse you.


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## spursfan

hibberd said:


> In germany its slightly more complex than that, if you have an accident caused by the weather conditions and you didnt have the correct tyres you are automatically deemed responsible for the accident and you will find your insurance will refuse you.


great idea, only problem i see is that over here we do not need winter tyres as there are so many great drivers over here that can drive anywhere with any tyres on..:lol:


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## cheekymonkey

spursfan said:


> great idea, only problem i see is that over here we do not need winter tyres as there are so many great drivers over here that can drive anywhere with any tyres on..:lol:


do you know mate your really getting boring i mean really boring, just because 
other people dont see it your way. no one has said you cant use them that is up to you, but one thing i will say is you keep going on about the safety side, yet i have asked if you have dont and bad weather driving courses and as you haven't replyed i take it you haven't. the driving knowledge will get you out of trouble when you winter tyre have failed plus will help keep you family safe all year long


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## spursfan

cheekymonkey said:


> do you know mate your really getting boring i mean really boring, just because
> other people dont see it your way. no one has said you cant use them that is up to you, but one thing i will say is you keep going on about the safety side, yet i have asked if you have dont and bad weather driving courses and as you haven't replyed i take it you haven't. the driving knowledge will get you out of trouble when you winter tyre have failed plus will help keep you family safe all year long


Says the troll..
you seem to be on a mission to upset and wind up as many people as possible, recently me , junkman as well. i wont say anymore on the subject, you can have a go at someone else on this forum..


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## cheekymonkey

spursfan said:


> Says the troll..
> you seem to be on a mission to upset and wind up as many people as possible, recently me , junkman as well. i wont say anymore on the subject, you can have a go at someone else on this forum..


:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:
so i take it you not took a course then. talk about kettle and tea pot. 
AS for junky i only asked him a simple question which he wouldnt answer, sorry couldn't answer. he is doing video's that miss inform people. Infact your both pritty similar part preaching something but wont admit the other is just important. Anyone who has had advance driving and winter driving will know they are as important if not more important then winter tyres, so if like you say your family is your first concern get them courses booked :thumb:. but i think you'll just carry on thinking it won't happen to you because you have winter tyres on
i thought we a bit old for name calling, seems some arn't 
cheers troll the driving god :lol::lol::lol::lol::driver::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::car::lol::lol::lol::thumb:


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## andy monty

cheekymonkey said:


> :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:
> so i take it you not took a course then. talk about kettle and tea pot.
> AS for junky i only asked him a simple question which he wouldnt answer, sorry couldn't answer. he is doing video's that miss inform people. Infact your both pritty similar part preaching something but wont admit the other is just important. Anyone who has had advance driving and winter driving will know they are as important if not more important then winter tyres, so if like you say your family is your first concern get them courses booked :thumb:. but i think you'll just carry on thinking it won't happen to you because you have winter tyres on
> i thought we a bit old for name calling, seems some arn't
> cheers troll the driving god :lol::lol::lol::lol::driver::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::car::lol::lol::lol::thumb:


Ohh you done a course 










 :wave:

oh and someone i know who has done IAM is an appauling (spl) driver...

What course was it you did out of curiosity i really want to do a skid pan day there is one about 20 miles away from me... (elvington where hamster crashed)


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## cheekymonkey

yep done a few, found the winter weather driving a real benifit and would recomend it to anyone, some of the technics are helpful is good weather as well


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## andy monty

cheekymonkey said:


> yep done a few, found the winter weather driving a real benifit and would recomend it to anyone, some of the technics are helpful is good weather as well


which one was it (sorry edited it after i posted)


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## cheekymonkey

i did the skid pan and it is great fun and learns you alot. the 1 i did the pan was ajustable, on its hardest really learns you the little things to look for, personally i would say go for it well worth the money, like i said great fun and really enjoyable plus with what you learn may save your life one day


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## mart.

Did it teach you how to drive uphill on ice and snow? :lol:


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## cheekymonkey

mart. said:


> Did it teach you how to drive uphill on ice and snow? :lol:


no, but the winter driving course did help :thumb:


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## andy monty

mart. said:


> Did it teach you how to drive uphill on ice and snow? :lol:


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## andy monty

cheekymonkey said:


> i did the skid pan and it is great fun and learns you alot. the 1 i did the pan was ajustable, on its hardest really learns you the little things to look for, personally i would say go for it well worth the money, like i said great fun and really enjoyable plus with what you learn may save your life one day


was that a wet pan? or the car on castor frame?


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## cheekymonkey

andy monty said:


> was that a wet pan? or the car on castor frame?


have done both, and both good, but it was the castor one that was adjustable :thumb:


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## zippo

I slid in to a kerb last week wrecking a wheel and tyre in the process . I was moving along at less than walking pace .I Do wonder if a winter tyre would have found the grip i needed ,but its a lot of money to payout 

Daz


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## VixMix

I should get flamed for thread revival :devil: but hey I can't resist it.



cheekymonkey said:


> you can pay to have courses on how to drive in bad conditions, then you get the experience needed before you need it. I wonder how many that are championing winter tyres have been on such courses which would be more of a benefit then winter tyres


:wave: hello



Darlofan said:


> Unless you've never had a problem driving in Winter on Summer tyres.


Me again - never had any serious problems driving in winter on summer compounds. Well never got into a situation I couldn't get out of, had a few losses of traction but nothing serious.



cheekymonkey said:


> so you use winter tyres for 6 months of the year?


Yep - October to March - It's cold oop north



possul said:


> ...SNIP...All I can gather from this thread is, I have winter tyres on I can drive faster than you. ...SNIP...


I think that's a bit unfair. I've read through this thread and I haven't picked up on that attitude. Certainly alot of people who somewhat "born again" about their winter compound "awakening" :lol: Perhaps that's why those against are defending their position so vehemently!

Anyhoo. I had never felt the need for winter compounds before. I've completed off road driving courses and had a fair amount of extreme off road experience (thanks British Armed Forces Motoring Association). I've done two skid courses (on a frame and on a wet ground). I drive a variety of vehicles including LGV and I've never had a problem getting about in winter and in snow.

Two winters ago I went to my normal tyre garage for two replacements and the chap told me they'd just taken a lorry load of part-worns from Germany - all winters - and would I like four of them? I negotiated a cost of £120 for 4 fitted and I have to admit I was smitten with them. What a difference! I'll stick with them now because I got them at a great price - they've lasted two winters so far and it costs me £40 to change. Although this year I trashed two of my summers coz they were worn so I'll probably negotiate the change over as part of the cost of replacing my summers. I noticed in October when it was cold and dreich that the Audi was a bit less "planted" on the wet road and that prompted me to change - the poor summers were part to blame for that, sure, but it *is* so much easier to drive on the winter compounds in the cold and I'm not into doing anything that's hard work! I am a convert :thumb:

I don't agree with making it compulsory - I'm all for choice. It would be good if more people in this country understood what winters are about and were able to make an *informed* choice but as many people can barely drive these days it's just not going to happen. I think most people in here (DW) are confident about their choices and why they make them and that's all good 

As for whether or not it will become compulsory in this country - with this government, who knows? Perhaps if the insurance industry or tyre industry threw enough of a bung at the government... (sorry I can get a little cynical when politics are involved!) We have had smoking bans, talks of "sugar" tax, "bedroom" tax and minimum alcohol pricing. Put it this way - I wouldn't be surprised.

I'll leave you with this nugget, the Ambulance Service here introduced winter compounds the winter AFTER the bad snow because of the "lessons learned". The winters were rolled out across the fleet on a needs basis and then last summer it was decided all vehicles would be fitted with winter compounds ALL YEAR ROUND. It was worked out (apparently) that any cost of increased wear in the summer was negligible due to the excessive cost of maintaining, switching and storing two sets of tyres for every vehicle and the generally colder weather up here. :shrug:


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