# Is this illegal? or fraud even?



## Deniance

a mate in work thinks that i am being fraudulent in the way i insure my van,

2 years ago i bought a little pickup tipper van, for gardening, removing rubble collecting stuff etc, skips were costing me a fortune so i got the van , worth its weight in gold....anyways my insurance was 600 odd quid, so at renewal time i had finished with the van and was going to get rid but its so handy i devised a plan, i gave the van to my old man as he uses it pretty much everyday ,

signed the logbook over to him, so he is now the legal owner, gave him 200 quid to insure it on his own new policy and gave him 126 quid to tax it,

i rang my insurance company and i am covered to drive any other vehicle as long as its insured by someone else blah blah, so every now and again i drive the van if i need something, now i thought this was ok but my mate in work thinks it as illegal and criminal?

hmmmmm.......


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## alan h M

it sounds perfectly legal to me
its just jealosy i think


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## Captain Pugwash

so this van is registered by your dad, he has it insured in his name and you only use it when you need it ...nothing wrong there


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## blacktar

Everything ok with that. That's all above board


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## ghost_walker

completely legal and above board


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## m1pui

It's not your main vehicle but I suppose it depends on how often "every now and again" is.


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## Ross

Nah nothing criminal about that.


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## Deniance

phew, thank god for that, had visions of being stopped and questioned!!!


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## ryan l

if the vehicle you want to drive is insured and road worthy (ie tax and mot) and you have a fully comprehensive insurance policy, with permission from the vehicles owner you can drive it. btw with most insurance companies you have to be 25 or over to drive other vehicles. hope this helps


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## SKY

Would not be a criminal matter anyway it would be civil, but it's not even that as it perfectly ok to do.


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## LeadFarmer

Sounds ok to me. But being the registered keeper doesn't necessarily make someone the legal owner. You can buy a car for your girlfriend to drive and register it in her name so that she is liable for fixed penalties etc. You've paid for ithe car but it's for her use. But it's your car.


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## Natalie

Only way I could see it being wrong was if you we're driving it more than your dad, then it might be considered fronting?


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## R7KY D

Your mate needs to find something else to do rather than worry about you


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## Paintguy

Nothing wrong with that at all. If there was then I'd be doing something wrong myself!

I bought a car for the missus, I pay to insure and tax it, but it's registered and insured in her name as she drives it every day. 

If your mate was right it would be illegal for me to take it to the corner shop every now and again just because I cant be bothered to fire up the quattro :lol:


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## alan hanson

just common sense to me


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## Shiny

My first thoughts are what does is say on your certificate of insurance.

I'd almost bet a Mars Bar that it states "The Policyholder may also drive any *private car* not belonging to etc...."

If your policy does cover the driving of vans as well as cars not belonging to you, then no, you are not covered, as you clearly state here -

"a mate in work thinks that i am being fraudulent in the way *i* insure *my* van"


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## steviebabe0

As I understand it this is ok but you will only be covered on a third party basis even if you Dad has it insured fully comp. I stopped worrying too much about insurance years ago when figures showed about 1 in 15 dont even have any and only get a poxy fine when caught anyhow :thumb:


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## ardandy

Commercial vehicles might not be covered under the third party thingy.

Worse case is you're driving it without insurance. You need to ring your ins to check asap methinks.


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## Andyg_TSi

Deniance said:


> a mate in work thinks that i am being fraudulent in the way i insure my van,
> 
> 2 years ago i bought a little pickup tipper van, for gardening, removing rubble collecting stuff etc, skips were costing me a fortune so i got the van , worth its weight in gold....anyways my insurance was 600 odd quid, so at renewal time i had finished with the van and was going to get rid but its so handy i devised a plan, i gave the van to my old man as he uses it pretty much everyday ,
> 
> signed the logbook over to him, so he is now the legal owner, gave him 200 quid to insure it on his own new policy and gave him 126 quid to tax it,
> 
> i rang my insurance company and i am covered to drive any other vehicle as long as its insured by someone else blah blah, so every now and again i drive the van if i need something, now i thought this was ok but my mate in work thinks it as illegal and criminal?
> 
> hmmmmm.......


But what are you using the van for now, purely for occasional 'private use', which I can't see a problem with, as others have already said,or are you still using it for a business purpose?
If your using it for a business purpose, and therefore a 'commercial vehicle' then what you doing _may_ be misconstrued as wrong

Put it this way, My dad owns a black cab. I also drive it as I have my badge.

In theory, If i wasn't a licenced cab driver, I could drive the cab on my car insurance for a private journey. But if I go plying for hire in it, I'm not insured am I, (on my car insurance) it's a whole different insurance altogether.....

do you see what I'm getting at.....


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## Shiny

The use on Deniance's certificate will extend to a vehicle he is driving under DOC, but he won't have "carriage of goods" under a private car policy, so wouldn't be able to use the van for business purposes. But by the sounds of things, it is a handy run around rather than a business vehicle.

The main concern here is whether his private car policy includes the driving of vans (although they used to years back, not many do now, i can't actually think of an insurer that does, even Aviva now only state private cars, years back i used to be able to drive "any motor vehicle including motorcycles", but this has long gone).

The other concern is that he refers to the van as his own vehicle, not his fathers, so he won't be covered regardless. A loss adjuster will pick up things like this very quickly, especially as he pays for the insurance, tax etc. They will have good reason to doubt the ownership and to kick out a claim.


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## Jem

If your dad does do most of the miles in it, and you only use it occasionally, it could be worth having you added as a named driver on your dads policy so you know 100% you're covered. However if you do more miles in it than he does, you being a named driver on his policy would be fronting.


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## LeadFarmer

I guess the only real way of knowing if he is actually insured to drive the van is when a claim is made against the policy from an incident occurring whilst he is driving it (either by his father or a 3rd party). It is then that the insurance company decides if the level of insurance is appropriate under the circumstances.


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## Shiny

He can still me a named driver and be the main user, but the fact that he is the main driver must be disclosed to the Insurers. Fronting is where the amount of use by an additional driver is misrepresented to an Insurer for the purpose of obtaining cheaper insurance.

If Deniance is main user and is disclosed as such, in effect, they will then rate on the main driver's age, so he'd be no better off insuring Dad's name.


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## Blanco92

I'd make a call to your insurance company just to confirm specifically you can drive a pickup using your 3rd party cover.

If the pickup is insured in your dad's name, can't you just go on as a named driver and be covered fully comp? Or are you young... Van insurance is prohibitively expensive for young lads


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## PaulN

Even if you own it your dad could insure it and you could be a name driver no problem....


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## Shiny

PaulN said:


> Even if you own it your dad could insure it and you could be a name driver no problem....


His dad will have difficulty insuring a vehicle belonging to a named driver, due to the insurable interest.


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## SteveyG

ryan l said:


> if the vehicle you want to drive is insured and road worthy (ie tax and mot) and you have a fully comprehensive insurance policy, with permission from the vehicles owner you can drive it. btw with most insurance companies you have to be 25 or over to drive other vehicles. hope this helps


It also has to specifically state this on your own insurance policy. Despite having fully comp insurance my insurance has never allowed me to drive another insured car.


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## Shiny

I've said this a few times before, but the primary cover being Comprehensive has nothing to do with the granting of the DOC extension.

You either get the cover or you don't and it doesn't matter if you have Comp, TPF&T or TPO primary cover. The DOC cover, if granted, will always only ever be TPO.

The key issues as to whether you the cover are the Insurer (some don't give it), your policy type (some budget policies, or classic car policies etc do not offer DOC), your age (most you have to be over 25) and your occupation (for example, people connect with the motor trade normally don't get DOC).


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## Snowy172

Shiny said:


> I've said this a few times before, but the primary cover being Comprehensive has nothing to do with the granting of the DOC extension.
> 
> You either get the cover or you don't and it doesn't matter if you have Comp, TPF&T or TPO primary cover. The DOC cover, if granted, will always only ever be TPO.
> 
> The key issues as to whether you the cover are the Insurer (some don't give it), your policy type (some budget policies, or classic car policies etc do not offer DOC), your age (most you have to be over 25) and your occupation (for example, people connect with the motor trade normally don't get DOC).


Yep I had it when working in retail as soon as I moved the the motor trade they took it away even tho I'm an office staff member and have nothing to do with the workshop they took my third party extension away and they also said a lot of companies don't offer it full stop and just coz you have fully comp insurance does not mean you can drive any other car third party you really have to read the small print.


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## nick_mcuk

Its perfectly legal as long as the vehicle is already insured...the minute you step away from it it reverts to the insurance of the owner/keeper.

Its all perfectly legal but be very aware you only have the minimum 3rd party cover when driving it like this...why not just get him to put you on his insurance policy is a lot less hokey-pokey than doing the way you are.


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## possul

He needs something else to do.
Only third pay when driving it iirc though


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## craigeh123

Just check you are covered as im not due to my job im not allowed to drive other vehicles in this way


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## SteveTDCi

It does make me smile in that we have an insurance broker posting and people still go against what he says


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## Shiny

SteveTDCi said:


> It does make me smile in that we have an insurance broker posting and people still go against what he says


Lol, as New Model Army once sang....

_"But all the words fell on deaf ears
And now the blind frustration bites"_


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## bidderman1969

Andyg_TSi said:


> But what are you using the van for now, purely for occasional 'private use', which I can't see a problem with, as others have already said,or are you still using it for a business purpose?
> If your using it for a business purpose, and therefore a 'commercial vehicle' then what you doing _may_ be misconstrued as wrong
> 
> Put it this way, My dad owns a black cab. I also drive it as I have my badge.
> 
> In theory, If i wasn't a licenced cab driver, I could drive the cab on my car insurance for a private journey. But if I go plying for hire in it, I'm not insured am I, (on my car insurance) it's a whole different insurance altogether.....
> 
> do you see what I'm getting at.....


That's different to here, maybe everywhere, once a car is registered at a taxi , only a licenced driver can drive it except a mechanic who has repaired it and needs to test it on the road, until it's de-registered, like if I got while er out, she can't drive us home


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## Shiny

This is the case with most councils, they will only let a badged driver drive. We often have taxi drivers asking for their wife to be added to their taxi, not usually a problem insurance wise, but they have to have permission from the council which is a separate issue.


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## Cookies

I went to borrow a friend's van to move some furniture for my parents a while back and a good friend advised me to check the conditions of the Third Party Extension with my insurer as it may not cover me for commercial vehicles of any type. 

He was absolutely spot on!! Having fully comp insurance only allows me to drive other private cars that are already insured. I just asked my insurance company for cover for one day which they kindly arranged, at cost, without any bother.

I think you will simply need to take the hit and keep and insure the van.

BTW - Shiny gives good advice.

Cooks


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## MEH4N

Good advice from Shiny. Its a van not a car so check your insurance to be safe. Also be aware of the difference between registered keeper and owner. Did you write your dad a receipt? as new owner.


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## Marve

SteveTDCi said:


> It does make me smile in that we have an insurance broker posting and people still go against what he says


I also like how the OP stepped out of this thread at post #8 when everything was going in his favour and hasn't actively been back since news that may go against what he was hoping has been posted.

I can imagine him explaining to his insurance company now - But I asked in the Insurance Zone on DW and had 6 replies that all told me I was right. So I am right.


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## Deniance

Hi all, hi marve, havn't stepped out of thread, had phone issues, god damn htc, anyways, you were right, i cannot drive van on my policy, only cars! which the first woman said was fine, but now they say no, so it looks like i was driving uninsured last weekend!, oh well lesson learnt, its over to my daddy now, hes going to add me as a named driver, but if costs go up a lot i just wont bother driving it! Thank you everyone for the help


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## Shiny

No worries, good job you asked really, although i suppose annoyingly your work mate was kind of right (but for the wrong reasons).

If your dad is adding you to his policy, just make sure the amount of use is disclosed correctly, if you use the van more than your dad, you will still need to be noted as the main user.

Thanks for reporting back though and confirming my suspicions. :thumb:


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## Deniance

Shiny said:


> No worries, good job you asked really, although i suppose annoyingly your work mate was kind of right (but for the wrong reasons).


im not going to tell him, ill never hear the end of it, my dad uses the van every day colecting all sorts of garbage i only use it now and again. i only did it this way because i was getting charged 600 odd quid, im 34 and 9 years ncb for god sake!!!!!


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