# Fall out remover FAIL



## Carpmadjohn (Aug 1, 2015)

Had a big problem today tmwoth a known brand fallout remover. My lexus gs450h wheels have 4 spokes that are chrome. Wheels in good condition. I spayed on then power washed off as ive done many times before without an issue (different brand fallout remover) and all the chrome has dissapeared, as in liquidised, no flakes of chrome anywhere. 

Ill speak to the c9mpany tomorrow but has anyone else had a similar issue?


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## rob267 (Nov 27, 2015)

You sure it hasnt just dulled the finish mate? 
Be amazed if it has liquidised the chrome.
Have you tried polishing the wheels? 

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## ah234 (Nov 10, 2015)

Any pictures? Also what fallout remover, they should all be on neutral


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## Hereisphilly (Nov 17, 2014)

Maybe the PW has had an effect?

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## Carpmadjohn (Aug 1, 2015)

100% gone. 

First i thought pressure washer but its the one ive used lots of times. Little karcher one. And for all 4 wheels and the only differance being the fallour remover........

Interestingly the calipers have also been effected, as iff an acid wheel cleaner has been used on them. 

I dont want to name the company as they are a very well respected c9mpany and it might not be there fault.


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## Hereisphilly (Nov 17, 2014)

Pictures would help alot, and if you suspect it could be the fallout remover, it's definitely worth contacting them directly to see what they say

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## fatdazza (Dec 29, 2010)

So a different brand caused the problem. Are you aware that some fallout removers are not the acid free bleeding type but rather oxalic acid. (Autoglym being a common example)

If your wheels are polished aluminium then an acid wheel cleaner will damage the finish.


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## ah234 (Nov 10, 2015)

The Lexus chrome finish is painted, which is why dissolving is a bit weird


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## Carpmadjohn (Aug 1, 2015)

Yes dazza. 

This is a bleeding type and is 1 of the most popular out there hence why i swapped, i wanted to see if it was as good as they say!


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## Rayaan (Jun 1, 2014)

If you put the brand up we can take a look to see if it's pH neutral etc


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## Brian1612 (Apr 5, 2015)

Brand and photo's would help. At this point we don't have enough information to offer any advice.


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## ShampooEfficient (Jan 19, 2008)

Did the instructions say anything about polished or painted wheels?


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## shine247 (Mar 1, 2010)

Stating the brand is not going to be an issue, at the moment we will be speculating on the well known brand which it may not be. There will be an answer in the end and it is better to know because it may save someone else having a problem.


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## Surrey Sam (Dec 29, 2008)

I'm guessing that these are the wheels; the chrome looks like a decorative trim, maybe plastic?


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## In House (Dec 3, 2015)

So it melted the silver paint and exposing the black paint underneath?


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## Cookies (Dec 10, 2008)

Some more info would definitely help OP. Have you got pictures of the wheels?

Cooks 

Sent from my D6603


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## steelghost (Aug 20, 2015)

It's worth noting - even "pH neutral" fallout removers become strongly acidic when in contact with iron particles. That's how they work!

We need to know the product used and see a picture of the wheels to be able to do anything more than speculate, though.


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## steelghost (Aug 20, 2015)

Ben Gum said:


> This is one of those things that was spread in the early days by suppliers who did not have a bleeding product and wanted to try to persuade people to use their acid ones. It is total nonsense.


So I'm clear, it's nonsense that they're pH neutral, or that they turn acidic when they react?


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## shine247 (Mar 1, 2010)

steelghost said:


> So I'm clear, it's nonsense that they're pH neutral, or that they turn acidic when they react?


Reading it as written it leans towards there is no acid but as far as I know these so described PH products do have an exothermic reaction when they meet an iron particle so it would be correct to say there is a localized acidic reaction. It would be better if the op updated the thread with details, it is not as if it turns out to be product "X" (ahem), we will not buy it ever again.


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## neilmcl (Mar 26, 2010)

Ben Gum said:


> They CAN be pH neutral but there is no massive pH change upon reaction. The products function thanks to a process called chelation. The exothermicity is insufficient to be significant. Get yourself a bit of fallout in a beaker, put a thermometer in there and stick a bit of rusty metal in - I'd be surprised if you could even measure a rise, much less one of any significance.


So how's a thermometer going to measure a change in acidity?


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## Hereisphilly (Nov 17, 2014)

neilmcl said:


> So how's a thermometer going to measure a change in acidity?


It won't, but it will measure how much of an exothermic reaction is going on

Litmus paper for acidity

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## Kyle_241 (Nov 24, 2016)

After all this talk, could of just uploaded a picture at least to show people what happened :thumb:


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## Andy from Sandy (May 6, 2011)

I power washed a plastic wheel trim once and it ripped all the paint off. It had nothing to do with fallout removers.

I stopped using power washers around painted and chromed plastic parts.


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## Dr_T (Jun 9, 2016)

Ben Gum said:


> Everyone is welcome to try it... Or you could take my word!


can you explain the chemistry please and how much of a change is going to occur? iron isn't going to change the pH as its not H or OH therefor you are going to have to dissolve an iron compound that will give rise to free H ions. Given that pH is a logarithmic scale and I don't know of any acids that contain iron (could be wrong I'm not a chemist), the amount of any soluble material on the front of a wheel isn't going to be that much surely.


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## steelghost (Aug 20, 2015)

Kyle_241 said:


> After all this talk, could of just uploaded a picture at least to show people what happened :thumb:


Eh, this is just an amusing diversion while we wait for the OP to take some pics


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## Exotica (Feb 27, 2006)

People get so obsessed with PH , acids etc .


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## steelghost (Aug 20, 2015)

Dr_T said:


> can you explain the chemistry please and how much of a change is going to occur? iron isn't going to change the pH as its not H or OH therefor you are going to have to dissolve an iron compound that will give rise to free H ions. Given that pH is a logarithmic scale and I don't know of any acids that contain iron (could be wrong I'm not a chemist), the amount of any soluble material on the front of a wheel isn't going to be that much surely.


So, it works roughly as follows (this is based on my understanding of the references given and whatever my brain has retained of my GCSE / A-level / 1st year undergrad chemistry & thermodynamics, twenty years on :lol: If anyone feels like constructively correcting or clarifying they're welcome to do so):

*/begin_science_lesson*

The fallout remover contains thioglycolic acid (which is what stinks), citric acid, and usually ammonium hydroxide (in sufficient quantity to neutralise the acids so that as supplied, the overall product is neutral; sometimes other bases are used).

When applied to a surface with an iron particle in it, the citric acid reacts with the iron forming iron (II) citrate - two thioglycolate ions then form a complex with the iron (II), in so doing it oxidises it to iron (III) and liberates two hydrogen ions which are acidic. It's this complex that forms the purple colour. The local reduction of pH also helps to release further iron (II) ions into solution.

Now the iron remover as supplied is roughly pH neutral, it's also what's known as a buffered solution ie it resists pH change. However if enough iron powder was added to the fallout remover the ability to buffer the pH change would be exhausted and it would start to go acidic.

As this reaction is also exothermic (ie releases heat) it would cause a temperature increase. If you want to see this in action, get some iron filings and put one drop of fallout remover onto them!

Please wear goggles if you're going to do this, and ideally do it outside on something you don't mind getting ruined. (Usual disclaimer ie if you do this I am not liable for you having killed your cat, ruined your dining table and / or blown your eyebrows off etc)

However if you have an appreciable amount of fallout remover (which is essentially various things dissolved in water) and you put a few particles of iron into it, the amount of heat generated will be relatively small. Water has a high specific heat capacity, which means it takes a large amount of energy to change the temperature of water (this means it can absorb a lot of energy which is why it's used in cooling and heat transfer applications eg car engines, central heating). It also means that a small amount of energy release will make only a very small change in temp, and this would not be measurable unless you have very sensitive lab gear.

References:

http://www.web-formulas.com/Formulas_of_Chemistry/Limit_Test_of_Iron.aspx
http://www.detailingwiki.org/decontaminating/what-is-a-fallout-remover/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thioglycolic_acid

*/end_science_lesson*


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## Brian1612 (Apr 5, 2015)

'Yeah, science *****!'


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## Cookies (Dec 10, 2008)

What steelgoat said lol. 

Cooks 

Sent from my D6603


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## Dr_T (Jun 9, 2016)

so the buffering ability of the iron remover needs to be crap then


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## steelghost (Aug 20, 2015)

Cookies said:


> What steelgoat said lol.
> 
> Cooks
> 
> Sent from my D6603


Baaa-aah!
:lol:


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## steelghost (Aug 20, 2015)

Dr_T said:


> so the buffering ability of the iron remover needs to be crap then


Not sure what you mean?


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## Dr_T (Jun 9, 2016)

steelghost said:


> Not sure what you mean?


if the soln can't buffer a bit of extra H ions then its not very good at buffering.


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## steelghost (Aug 20, 2015)

Well, the product is buffered as a side effect of the ammonia being present to neutralise the two acids.

Once it comes into contact with iron you will get local reactions occurring on the surface of the iron particle - this generates heat and acidity (and the coloured bi-product we all recognise). Bear in mind that this stuff is typically reacting in a thin film on a panel, not in a beaker on a bench. In addition it typically has surfactants mixed in to degrease the panel and allow it to act as a more general cleaner, which increases viscosity - both of these make it harder for the bulk solution to come along and exert a buffering effect on the local pH around the iron particle.

Anyway, you _want_ it to be acidic around the iron - ultimately the acidity is what removes the iron from the panel (by dissolving the outer layer and allowing it to come free of the little hole where it was buried in the clearcoat). The benefit of the neutralised product is that it doesn't expose _everything_ you apply it to to a lowered pH - it only develops acidic conditions where it comes into contact with something you want to remove.


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## Paul7189 (Nov 11, 2015)

I'm going to take some into work and add some iron to it with a pH probe. Settle this once and for all haha. Obviously I won't take pictures until we get some of the ruined chrome


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## TonyHill (Jul 28, 2015)

A little frustrating that the OP hasn't been on for a couple of days in order to advise which product be actually used! :wall:


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## Gas head (May 28, 2010)

Dr_T said:


> can you explain the chemistry please and how much of a change is going to occur? iron isn't going to change the pH as its not H or OH therefor you are going to have to dissolve an iron compound that will give rise to free H ions. Given that pH is a logarithmic scale and I don't know of any acids that contain iron (could be wrong I'm not a chemist), the amount of any soluble material on the front of a wheel isn't going to be that much surely.


Ferric acid maybe one?


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