# New garage project - advice?



## Fentum (May 1, 2017)

At last, I've received planning permission for an extension to my house in Italy. I'd be grateful for some input from the DW posse please.

The architect has now asked me to go away and think about how to spec the garage.

As some of you will recall, I spend half the year working there and half in a flat working in London. In London I have no garage and have either on-street parking available and rent secure covered parking.

The place in Italy is where I keep my collectible cars. At the moment, I have a two bay carport (which is where the kitchen will be going) and I use covers and carcoons to stop any rot.

I now have the go-ahead to build (among other things) a two car garage and a two car carport.

Here are the architect drawings.

Colour coding:
1. The yellow boxes represent the existing property.
2. The green boxes show the extension.
3. The red boxes show the garage space.
4. The purple box shows the new carport.

Image 1 is the plan view










Image 2 is the section of the East-facing view:










Image 3 is the section of the North facing view:










What I want from the garage are three main things:

1. Secure and climate controlled storage for classic cars; 
2. The ability to work safely on a car in a warm and clean environment;
3. Somewhere to keep my car-related tools and detailing kit.

The first two do not necessarily both have to be operational at the same time - I'd rather have space to work around a car by emptying the garage than work on one car with the other alongside. I also want to optimise workflow. This is for H&S reasons but also for reasons of practicality.

The garage is small for two cars but the redeeming feature is that they are cars with 1960s dimensions.

I'm not fussed about the garage doors so long as they are insulated. Having a Judas door (to gain access without having to open up fully) might be nice though as I'm not keen on having a door from the garage straight into a reception room as depicted - one of the architect's fantasies is that I'll sit by a log fire looking through a window at my cars:argie:. I haven't shared that detail with 'er indoors yet:devil:

In the plan view, the garage has a cupboard for gardening goods (deposito altrezzi agricoli). This is to meet the spacial planning requirements and it may be "forgotten" when the garage is actually built, so please ignore the encroachment into the overall space.

I do not need to store ordinary tools - saws, routers etc here as I have a large shed elsewhere.

What I think I want to specify:

1. Epoxy floor and skirting with built in drainage channel(s) so I can power wash the work area easily.
2. A flush fitted scissor lift (or two post lift if space and height allow) to enable easy working on the lower portion and underside of a car. I do basic mechanics as well as detailing, so being able to re-bush suspensions etc would be invaluable.
3. High quality LED lighting (ceiling and wall) to enable safe working and quality detailing.
4. Large air compressor tank and suspended retractable airline system to reach any corner of the garage easily. Airline to exterior wall?
5. Hot and cold water inside and cold water tap on outside wall.
6. Wall units, pegboards, workbench and sink.
7. 16 pairs of double electrical sockets with 
8 pairs at the work bench and the other 8 distributed evenly on the walls .
8. Extractor fan.
9. Smoke, heat and CO sensors (can these be switchable? If I'm welding I don't want alarms going off all the time).
10. PIR sensors and contact breaker alarm fittings
11. CAT6 cabling to allow computer and screen connection (for following YouTube instructions etc.) 
12. 3 X wall mounted wheel racks for storage of winter/summer wheels. (These can be high up on a wall but are fairly essential in North Italy.)
13. Will I need some kind of humidity control - if so, venting for excess moisture to the outside.
14. Radiator or underfloor heating?

My thoughts re underfloor are that the garage will spend a lot of time not being used and can be kept at a reasonably stable and low temperature level (10-12c). The glass on the side (east facing) gets the sun from dawn until about noon. From two until dusk the sun will shine on the roof so the thermal mass will benefit from solar heating almost all year round.

Re the new carport;

1. I want to put in hard standing which allows easy draining (so probably that grid stuff which allows grass to grow through it).
2. Security posts embedded in concrete to prevent vehicles being moved.
3. Waterproof electrical sockets to allow carcoons to be operated.
3. Some kind of fine wall mesh to allow plants to grow and disguise the structure as well as dissipate strong winds.

Clearly some of this might need to fall by the wayside if the budget gets excessive, although I have already paid for the kitchen:doublesho. But, in any case, I'll need to pay for a floor, walls, lights etc, so I might as well start off thinking about what is fittest for purpose.

Most of the wish list (except perhaps a double post lift) should be achievable in a cost-effective way given that this is effectively a new build and thinking in cabling for existing electrical, IT and alarm systems and water at this point should not add too much cost.

I'd be very grateful for any thoughts, warnings, observations please. Thank you.

Peter


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## Forsh (Jun 13, 2014)

Sound divine!

Lucky boy!

Enjoy!


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## Fentum (May 1, 2017)

Forsh said:


> Sound divine!
> 
> Lucky boy!
> 
> Enjoy!


I should know better. Building projects always start off full of optimism, then you meet the builders and reality!

Peter


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## Forsh (Jun 13, 2014)

Tell me about it - I'm the main contractor on my build!


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## steelghost (Aug 20, 2015)

I don't know how hot / cold it gets where you are, but the best way to achieve temperature equalisation is with insulation, stop the place getting too hot in summer / too cold in winter. 

You could even consider a couple of hot water heating panels on your roof to heat liquid and a pump to run it through the slab during the summer, to then slowly release that heat during the winter? 

Everything else sounds ace, look forward to seeing it progress


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## Fentum (May 1, 2017)

steelghost said:


> I don't know how hot / cold it gets where you are, but the best way to achieve temperature equalisation is with insulation, stop the place getting too hot in summer / too cold in winter.
> 
> You could even consider a couple of hot water heating panels on your roof to heat liquid and a pump to run it through the slab during the summer, to then slowly release that heat during the winter?
> 
> Everything else sounds ace, look forward to seeing it progress


steelghost, thanks.

It's by Lake Maggiore. I work in Italy about half the year and half in London.

The microclimate is amazing. It is in a bowl surrounded by the Alps or at least its foothills on three sides. But we have palm trees in our garden. At lake level, it seldom freezes and snow tyres are not required but two hundred feet up and you can't legally drive without them between November and late spring. The temperature range is from around 0-3 (snow seldom settles) to 35 Celsius.

All year, our plot gets sun from the east all morning and then from after lunchtime from the south until dusk. Although the sun's height in the sky alters, looking at the drawings, it will heat the extension wall shown on the East aspect all morning and the roof/terrace (Plan view) all afternoon. Your thought about water heating is a great one - we are required to put solar panels on as part of the environmental plan but whether it feeds the heating generally or the garage specifically as a heat sink, I guess does not really matter. I'm speaking to the architect this week and I'll raise it with him.

Thanks again.

Peter


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## Cookies (Dec 10, 2008)

Hi Peter. 

That's quite an impressive project my friend. At least you're entering the process with eyes wide open lol. 

With regard to the garage, I have a friend who has a fairly large collection of minis. He has a number of solar PV panels on the roof of his garage that help run a number of dehumidifiers. He has been doing this for years (the dehumidifiers, not the solar panels) and his cars remain in perfect condition. 

Have you thought about using solar panels combined with a Tesla Powerwall? It's essentially a battery that stores the energy produced by the PV system during the day, and can be used at your leisure at night, when the PV panels will not be generating electricity, and you'd normally have to buy electricity from the grid. 

Under floor heating is a good call, it's also very pleasant on the old tootsies. There's also air source and geothermal heat pumps that could be perfect for regulating temperature. 

Just a few thoughts, bud. Hope you have the silver shovel at the ready for the sod cutting event!

Cooks


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## chongo (Jun 7, 2014)

Wow it looks amazing bud and this is going to be some fantastic work space for your cars:thumb: just give me a shout once it's finished and I'll come over and detail your cars for you


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## Fentum (May 1, 2017)

chongo said:


> Wow it looks amazing bud and this is going to be some fantastic work space for your cars:thumb: just give me a shout once it's finished and I'll come over and detail your cars for you


chongo,

Thanks.

:lol:

Careful, I might take you up on that:buffer::buffer::buffer:.

peter


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## Fentum (May 1, 2017)

*Gas and Fire Safety*

Just an update:

My insurance company is telling me that if I use the garage to work on my cars (rather than simply park them), I must have the following:

(i) CO2 Fire extinguisher
(ii) Fire Blanket
(iii) CO alarm
(iv)Extractor fan
(v) (if welding) more than one exit route.

I am barred from storing any amount of petrol in the garage in those circumstances either. They are relaxed, however, about reasonable quantities of solvent based products e.g. panel wipe.

All seems perfectly sensible, and I don't have a problem with any of it, but (with the exception of (v)) that's just for using an angle grinder and similar. For welding, they start having conniptions about what the floor, walls and ceiling are made of.

Anyway, I've just looked at a few entries on this sub-forum and have not noticed much evidence of any of the listed items in most threads.

Not a criticism of anybody here i.e. is my insurance company being overly fussy, or are generally too relaxed about it? What do you folks actually _do_ re fire risks?

Peter


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## bense556 (Mar 14, 2017)

I don't really work on my cars much in my garage, however there are a number of solvent based materials in there. As such, I have a dry powder fire extinguisher close to hand, and a fire blanket in the house which is easily accessible. 

Is it your house insurance that has stated these requirements? Could be the fact the property is in Italy (if you are using an Italian insurance provider) or that these are pre-requisites for most, but no-one actually reads the T&C's.


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## Fentum (May 1, 2017)

bense556 said:


> I don't really work on my cars much in my garage, however there are a number of solvent based materials in there. As such, I have a dry powder fire extinguisher close to hand, and a fire blanket in the house which is easily accessible.
> 
> Is it your house insurance that has stated these requirements? Could be the fact the property is in Italy (if you are using an Italian insurance provider) or that these are pre-requisites for most, but no-one actually reads the T&C's.


bense566,

Thanks. I think that makes sense as would the CO monitor.

It's a UK insurer specialising in overseas properties. These are additional provisions imposed when I asked for extended cover for building the extension.

I have never seen even a professional garage in Italy meet all those requirements:lol:! But then they smoke on petrol station forecourts quite happily...

Peter


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## funkydunk (Aug 16, 2016)

Given that you want heating and cooling in the garage would air conditioning be a better way to achieve both in one unit. I dont know anything about fire protection.


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## bense556 (Mar 14, 2017)

Peter, 

Indeed in does make sense, and to be fair, it makes sense in this country, but we were never told about any of that when my parents purchased their house, and the previous owner (who kept his Morgan, along with a number of industrial machines) never had any of that either! 

From what I understand from military friends stationed in Italy, safety isn't a big focus! More how many can we get in and out in a day!

Ben


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