# Hologram Free with a Rotary Buffer



## Mike Phillips

*Hologram Free with a Rotary Buffer*

Over and over the topic of buffing out a car hologram-free, that is without leaving any swirls induced by the rotary buffer, pad and product always comes up on detailing discussion forums.

Over the years I've see a lot of people claim they can buff out every car hologram-free no exceptions. I never believe them because I've done too much testing that proves otherwise.

Besides my own testing, always on black paint, I cannot recall a single time where a person claimed they can produce a hologram-free finish on every car ever back it up with proof. By proof I mean,


*Document how they inspected*
*Take honest pictures that show the results of their inspection*
One of the problems with proving you can use a rotary buffer and not leave any holograms or rotary buffer swirls is that in order to inspect you have to take what should be a flawless finish and chemically strip it in some manner. For example,


*Wipe the paint with Isopropyl Alcohol*
*Wipe the paint with Mineral Spirits*
*Wipe the paint with some manufacturers chemical stripper*
*Wash the vehicle with a strong detergent soap*
All of the above


*Take time*
*Potentially induce scratches and/or marring back into the paint*
*Take time*
Buffing out a car already takes a lot of time. To stop after the last machine polishing step and somehow chemically strip the finish to prove even just to yourself that you are in fact producing swirl-free results not only will cause the job to take longer but it's going to mar and even scratch the finish to some level meaning you're going to have to undo the damage you inflict.

*Potentially induce scratches and/or marring back into the paint*
Most liquid products used to chemically strip paint are not the best lubricants to at the same time lubricate the surface to prevent marring and scratching. It's a lose/lose situation. The best product I have found is Mineral Spirits. It's a dramatically better wiping experience than anything I've ever used just from a lubricating aspect.

*100% Hologram Free Claims*
So people claim they can do it but don't back it up with proof and for valid reasons. But if you don't chemically strip and inspect, and because paint systems are different from car to car and continually changing even within the same make and model from the manufacturer, how do you know 100% for sure you're leaving a swirl free finish without checking?

*Answer:* You don't know. _You assume._

*A couple comments...*

I don't know of a single professional and seasoned detailer that's also a true friend that claims to be able to leave a 100% swirl free finish on every car they buff-out. Not one and yes... _I ask_.

I've never claimed to be able to produce a 100% swirl free finish on every car I buff out and never will. The reason why I won't make that claim is the same reason I post to every thread that brings this topic up and here's what I post...

_Paints are different. It's not about you and how great you are or the tool, pad or product you use it's about the paint. Some paints are more polishable than others and some paints are not very polishable. You don't know until you do some testing and inspect your results._

Besides that... I also post this...

Instead of taking a risk that you might be leaving swirls behind, or instead of taking the time to chemically strip the paint and thus waste time and potentially mar or scratch the paint, simply _*change the action of the tool*_ for the last machine polishing step.

Change from a direct drive, single direction rotating action to a tool that uses both rotating and oscillating actions.

By changing the action of the tool you will ensure a swirl free finish today and down the road after your customer has washed the car a dozen times without ever re-applying a coat of wax.

So I'm not saying it can't be done as I'm confident it can be done and I believe I've done it. I don't believe it can be done on EVERY paint system and the only way to ever know is to chemically strip and inspect in bright, overhead sunlight.

Of course, you don't always have bright, overhead sunlight so that presents another problem to overcome if you do want to inspect.

So everyone can decide what the best approach is for them, I'm just trying to present what's possible and practical and what's not.

*Always be open to new ideas, products and techniques...*
I do believe in ALWAYS being open to new ideas, products and techniques and when I say this what I mean is I am always open to the introduction of the next best thing as it relates to pads and polishes. The times we're living in have seen more cool new technology introduced in the last few years then I've ever seen in my lifetime. So I practice what I preach when I tell others to be open to new ideas, products, pads, tools and techniques. _Bring it on..._

The above all said, I have a number of prototype products to test and a couple of them require I start out with a 100% swirl free finish after chemically stripping. So today I went out into the studio and took one of the panels we had painted for SEMA for our SEMA Booth.

I don't know the exact code for the paint or any of the reducers or additive but I can find out as I'm going to interview the painter for another article I'm writing. I do know it's a *PPG* paint system.

The paint had all kinds of scuffs from being packed and shipped in a crate from Las Vegas to Stuart, Florida so the first thing I did was use a rotary buffer with a medium cut polish and a foam cutting pad to remove all the scuffs, abrasions, swirls and scratches.

Then I re-polished using a fine cut polish and finishing pad, still on a rotary buffer.

*Let's establish what holograms look like...*
Before I add the pictures, lets take a look at what holograms also called rotary buffer swirls or rotary buffer trails look like so we can establish it's a very *distinct scratch pattern*. For this I'm going to use some pictures of my friend Rob's black 2006 Mustang GT Convertible because it clearly shows holograms.

*Here's a section of the above photo cropped out and in full size...*
Often times you'll hear or read about "Holograms" or "Buffer Trails". These are both _interchangeable terms_ for Rotary Buffer Swirls.

If you look at the below swirls they almost seem to have a _*3D appearance or floating in the paint affect*_, this is the appearance characteristic from which we get the word *hologram*.


















*Here's the same car but now we're using the flash from our camera to light up and reveal the horrendous swirls...*









*I don't think I've ever seen a car so swirled out by the mis-use of a rotary buffer...*
*







*

*The zillions of swirls in the clear layer makes the paint look hazy and blocks your view of the black paint under the clear top coat. This reduces the darkness of the paint making the true black look gray under florescent lights .*









*Okay... get the idea?*

Do the pictures above *establish* the pattern of scratches instilled by the mis-use of a rotary buffer?

*Good.*

Next I had Yancy help me to carry the fender stand and panel out into the sun where I inspected the paint before chemically stripping. Here's a picture, note there are no visible "trails" or holograms.

*After Machine Buffing with a Rotary Buffer - Not stripped, just wiped clean*









*Wiped very thoroughly with Mineral Spirits *









Any marring you see now is not "holograms" but marring from wiping. Keep in mind, clear coats are "Scratch-Sensitive" and when working on BLACK paint even the lightest defects show up, that's why I always test on black paint.









I think it's pretty obvious that there are zero holograms or rotary buffer swirls in the paint...









Next I wiped the panel down with IPA at 12.5%. Note when I wiped the panel down both with MS and IPA I dragged the panel into the shade first.









Now you can see some light marring, but that's because IPA isn't a very good lubricant, in fact it's a _horrible_ lubricant. I think of all the people that have been told by others to wipe their car down with IPA before going to the next step and it's pretty easy to understand that when they did this they likely marred their car's paint and this is called _*working backwards*_. It's also likely that if the people taking this advice were working on light to medium colored cars they never saw the marring.









After doing the chemical stripping and inspecting I was back to needing a perfect finish to do my tests so I re-polished the paint. Here you can see the direction I moved the rotary buffer.









Then I wiped the residue off and wiped the paint with Mineral Spirits. Next I took pictures using the flash of my trusty, dusty Canon Rebel. The light to the lower right of my finger is the camera flash.









After seeing the fingerprint my finger left on the otherwise perfect finish I placed a business card on the paint to give my camera a focal point. You can learn more about how to capture swirls and other defects with your camera in an article I wrote and the link will be at the end of this post.



























I don't think it's a good idea to for anyone to claim they can produce a 100% hologram or swirl free finish on every car they buff out because there's too many different types of paint systems on all the zillions of cars in the world. But others can do as they see fit.

I do think that some paint systems are more polishable than others and a hologram-free finish can be produced using only a rotary buffer.

I also believe the only way you will know is to chemically strip the paint and then move the car into full-on, bright overhead sunlight to inspect. The sun in my opinion does the best job of revealing swirls on car paint versus artificial lights.

I also believe and use as my own practice _*changing the action of the tool*_ for my last machine process on most projects.

*Everyone can find a way that works for them... *

I didn't plan on actually writing this article but since I have to test a number of different coatings and needed a flawless, chemically stripped finish for the testing I just happen to come across a paint system that appears to be very _*polishable*_.

Hope this helps to shed some light on the topic of what can and what cannot be done using a rotary buffer.

Here's the article I was talking about...

*How-To capture swirls, scratches, etchings and other surface defects with your camera*


----------



## HeavenlyDetail

Great write up Mike! proper use of lighting is also so important as too many finishes are shown without lighting and a poor finish will always be represented as a great finish due to this


----------



## Smurf.

Nice read, thanks for taking the time.

Can you answer me this; With the influx of ceramic coatings coming to the market, most require the paint to be chemically stripped to ensure adhesion of the said coating, with that in mind what steps/products would you recommend for a final wipe down before the application of these coatings to ensure minimal marring?


----------



## PaulN

Whats your secret "changing the action of the tool"? :thumb:

I find including a few sets of both Horizontal and vertical Paths really helps reduce obvious Holograms.

Thanks

PaulN


----------



## -Raven-

PaulN said:


> Whats your secret "changing the action of the tool"? :thumb:


I read it to be going from a rotary to a DA or forced DA.


----------



## -Raven-

Interesting read Mike. Do you bother with chemical wipe downs in between polishing steps? I've all but stopped using IPA on my paint and the cars I polish. 

I've just recently got a black car, and yep, finding out how good I truly am at polishing out a car! Great for improving technique I must say!


----------



## Deanvtec

Great post Mike, makes perfect sense and food for thought, seen this a few times on vehicles that were supposedly detailed hologram free when after an extensive wash and back out in the sun holograms were there and needed finishing down correctly to remove them, can see how the right lighting and panel wipedowns are key to a superb finish.


----------



## james_death

Thank you as ever Mike....:thumb:

Just finished your detailing e-book.... Great read ill have to post a review up... well intended to as soon as i got it but really needed to read at my leisure....:lol:

Half hour a day....:lol:

Looking forward to follow ups....:thumb:

Will the follow up be on using the Rotary???...:thumb:

OOh OOH... wet sanding in the next ebook please....:lol:


----------



## Mike Phillips

Smurf. said:


> Can you answer me this; With the influx of ceramic coatings coming to the market, most require the paint to be chemically stripped to ensure adhesion of the said coating, with that in mind what steps/products would you recommend for a final wipe down before the application of these coatings to ensure minimal marring?


I kind of did answer your question in my article and that is to follow the manufacturers directions. If they say wipe down with IPA or their own proprietary paint stripper then follow their directions. The fact that something that will remove oils off paint won't at the same time be the best choice for lubricating the surface to minimize marring is the price you pay to use the product of your choice and the current state of where were at with technology.

I think it's possible to GENTLY wash a car using a detergent soap and an incredibly soft and gentle wash mitt and then rinse and thus remove any polishing oils but if you're starting with a finish that's 100% perfect at some point, somewhere it's likely you're going to see some type of diminishing of perfection. Guess it depends upon how good a person is at washing and drying a car?

There's no easy or fool-proof answer to your question, wiping to remove oils includes the risk of marring the paint. You're only going to see marring if

*A.* You look for it
*B.* You're working on a dark colored paint and you look for it...

Most people don't look or even think about it, they just wipe the paint and apply the coating. I think about it and always do all my testing on black paint, so I see things others might not be aware of.



PaulN said:


> Whats your secret "changing the action of the tool"? :thumb:


Porter Cable style DA Polisher. By switching to this *type* of machine you change the action of the tool, then it just comes down to matching the right pad and product to the task.



type[r]+ said:


> I read it to be going from a rotary to a DA or forced DA.


Exactly, you can use either a Flex 3401 or a PC style, basically any knock-off of the original tool in this category which is the Porter Cable 7424 and all variants which started out their lives as Wood Sanders.

From my article titled,

*The Free Floating Spindle Assembly - The Story Behind The Story...*



Mike Phillips said:


> *The Free Floating Spindle Bearing Assembly - The Story Behind The Story...*
> 
> *Copyright ©PBMA - AutogeekOnline.net® All Rights Reserved*​
> A reply from Porter Cable taken from page 9 of this thread,
> *Griots Garage ROP vs PC 7424XP*
> 
> 
> 
> MisterShark said:
> 
> 
> 
> I recently fielded our collective question about what the industry term might be for the 'mechanism':
> 
> *My question to Porter-Cable*
> What is the mechanism called that causes the polisher to stop rotation when excessive pressure is exerted upon it?
> 
> Some of us are having a discussion on an online auto detailing forum and I incorrectly referred to the mechanism as a 'clutch' (such as my drill has). I'd like to clarify this for the sake of accuracy.
> 
> Thanks."​*Porter-Cable's reply*
> Dear James, we believe the following information addresses your inquiry. The pad itself may stop rotating temporarily with excessive pressure, because it is mounted into a free-floating Spindle Bearing Assembly. However the overall mechanism is fixed & therefore never stops orbiting when the machine is running, unless something is damaged or worn.​So there you have it. I guess our 'mechanism' is called a "free-floating Spindle Bearing Assembly"
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you to MisterShark for taking the initiative to contact Porter Cable and get their definition, explanation and description of how the mechanism works that makes the Porter Cable DA Polishers both safe, effective and unique.
> 
> Note the Meguiar's versions and the Griot's Garage Versions of the Porter Cable Polisher use a similar design, that is these two other polishers also use a Free Floating Spindle Assembly.
> 
> In the below pictures, I'm pointing to what's referred to as the *Free Floating Spindle Bearing Assembly* of a Porter Cable Dual Action Polisher.
> 
> *Porter Cable 7424XP with the Backing Plate Removed Exposing the*
> *Counterweight and Free Floating Spindle Bearing Assembly*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Close-up*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *From Hand to Machine*
> In the last 15 to 20 years a lot of people have made the switch from working by hand to working by machine because it's faster and more effective, especially on modern day clear coat paints.
> 
> *Clear Coat Paints Are Scratch-Sensitive*
> Modern clear coat paints last longer than traditional single stage paints like the lacquers and enamels that were used to paint cars from the time the Model T was introduced till the early 1980's. In the early 1980's car manufactures began switching over to a new paint system called Basecoat/Clearcoat where the color coat or pigmented layer of paint is sprayed onto the car first and then a layer of clear paint is sprayed over the top of the color coat. Besides being a different approach, the resin used to make the paint changed also.
> 
> *Longer Lasting*
> The results are paints that resist oxidation, (oxidation was a huge problem with single stage paints), and last much longer over the service life of the vehicle as compared to single stage paints.
> 
> *Scratch-Sensitive* *= Easily Scratched = Eyesore*
> The problem is people confuse *last longer* with _*look good longer*_ and these are two very different things. A modern clear coat finish can last a long time but that doesn't mean it will look good over this period of time. You see clear coat paints are *scratch-sensitive*, that means even though they tend to be harder than traditional single stage lacquers and enamels, they still scratch very easily and the swirls and scratches show up easily to our eyes because the scratches tend to be opaque or whitish in color and because of this, the colored or pigmented layer reveals and even showcases the swirls and scratches to your eyes making the finish on your car an eyesore in the sun.
> 
> *The practical differences between single stage paints and a clear coat paints*
> 
> *Early 1965 Mustang with single stage paint and a modern Mustang with a basecoat/clear coat finish*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Frustration with clearcoat paints*
> Now let me tie this back to why machine polishing has become so much more popular since clear coat paints were introduced.
> 
> As more and more cars being manufactured made their way into the market, as car owners, or in other words, do-it-yourselfers, would try the traditional methods of removing defects out of the paint, that is with *traditional* rubbing and polishing compounds, they would find that most of these products may remove defects but leave their own defects in the paint at the same time.
> 
> Not only that, but because generally speaking, modern clear coats are harder than single stage paints, the energy, time and skill required to actually remove defects out of clear coat paints increased dramatically, and in fact increased to the point that many people attempting to remove defects and restore a shine like their car had when they bought it brand new, left most people feeling *frustrated* and their cars no better off than when they started and often times worse.
> 
> *Enter the Porter Cable DA Sander*
> That's right, I said *sander*! The Porter Cable Dual Action Sander is the tool that became the *Tipping Point* that was the driving force behind the average person switching from working by hand to working by machine.
> 
> *The Porter Cable Dual Action Sander with Wood Dust Collecting Attachment for Sanding Wood*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Sanding the old finish off using a Porter Cable Dual Action Sander*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *The exact same tool only outfitted with a foam polishing pad for machine polishing automotive clear coat paints*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *The story behind the story...*
> Here's why the Porter Cable Dual Action Polisher switched people from working by hand to working by machine
> *1) Safe - Uses a Free Floating Spindle Bearing Assembly for a drive mechanism*
> 
> *2) Faster - Faster and more effective at removing swirls compared to working by hand*
> ​*Safe - Uses a Free Floating Spindle Bearing Assembly for a drive mechanism*
> This in my opinion, is the key feature that gave the average person the confidence to work on their car's paint by machine. The biggest *fear* people have about using a machine to polish their car's paint is the fear of *burning though the paint* or *instilling swirls*.
> 
> The Porter Cable Dual Action Sander overcomes these problems by using what we now refer to as a Free Floating Spindle Bearing Assembly. This is a unique drive mechanism that will rotate and oscillate a buffing pad at the same time enabling the user to remove swirls, water spots and scratches while at the same time if too much pressure is applied to the buffing pad or if it's held on edge or on top of a body line the pad will simply stop rotating thus prevent the pad from harming the paint.
> 
> *Faster and more effective at removing swirls compared to working by hand*
> Besides being safe, it goes without saying that the speed and effectiveness were and still are very important reasons that people accustomed to working by hand switch over to working by machine. Typically, as a person uses the Internet to do research on how to remove swirls out of there car's clear coat finish they discover these things called *discussion forums* and after a little targeted reading they learn about the Porter Cable Dual Action polisher, commonly referred to as the DA Polisher.
> 
> To see how safe these tools really are, check out this video where I place extreme pressure to the back of my hand using a Porter Cable Dual Action Polisher
> 
> *Pushing down as hard as I can*
> 
> 
> That's the story behind the story as to why Dual Action Polishers like the Porter Cable 7424XP, the Meguiar's G110v2 and the Griot's Garage ROP have become so popular.
> 
> *Yesterday's Trend... Today's Norm...*
> Today, DA Polishers are the most popular tool among do-it-yourselfers crossing over from working by hand to working by machine. Many Professional Detailers also use the DA Polisher for their follow-up polishing steps after using a rotary buffer to do the major correction work. These tools are the easiest tools to learn how to use and so safe that even my son Rand is able to operate one safely on Nate Truman's 1966 Batmobile Recreation.
> 
> _Photo courtesy of LacViet Photography_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So if you're still working by hand... check out the dual action polisher and see if you're ready to move up to machine polishing.
Click to expand...




type[r]+ said:


> Do you bother with chemical wipe downs in between polishing steps? I've all but stopped using IPA on my paint and the cars I polish.


No. I call that working backwards... "if" a person is going to chemically strip the paint then wait till the last machine step before the wax, paint sealant or coating application.



Deanvtec said:


> seen this a few times on vehicles that were supposedly detailed hologram free when after an extensive wash and back out in the sun *holograms were there *


Holograms were there being the key point...



james_death said:


> Will the follow up be on using the Rotary???...:thumb:
> 
> OOh OOH... wet sanding in the next ebook please....:lol:


Yes and yes.

:thumb:


----------



## toni

Another great write-up! Thanks for sharing.

One question so far, Mike: isn't mineral spirit dangerous for paint? Especially for slightly warm paint after polishing?


----------



## dubber

Excellent, this should be made a sticky :thumb:


----------



## CARLTON

Great read, thanks mike.


----------



## Racer

Great write up and it arise very interesting questions.

Did you used the eraser from car pro for removing the polishing oils???

I do it after polishing and if the paint marrs easily i only wash the car with a strong shampoo solution and chemical stripper .


----------



## Mike Phillips

toni said:


> Another great write-up! Thanks for sharing.
> 
> One question so far, Mike: isn't mineral spirit dangerous for paint? Especially for slightly warm paint after polishing?


Sometimes on detailing discussion forums I find it helps to position topics in _*extremes*_, which I'm going to do here to make my second point. My first point is to keep in mind, I don't make the paints, I don't make the waxes, sealants or coatings and I certainly don't make IPA, or MS or any other product intended to chemically strip polishing oils, waxes, silicones, polymers or fillers off paint. So whether any of these things are good or bad or indifferent I'm not the source for these items.

That said, when you machine buff paint you increase its temperature and cause it to expand. In it's expanded form it is more easily affected and penetrated by solvents of any type except _probably_ water. (Water is a solvent, it dissolves dirt).

Is this an problem? I don't recall ever reading a thread on any detailing discussion forum where a person shared their horror story of a paint job ruined as a result of chemically stripping paint while the paint was still warm with ANY brand or type of solvent mixture.

Can it happen? Probably, but if it does happen it's the exception not the rule as I just can't remember ever reading about any issues like this since I started posting to discussion forums in 1994. (Back then it was Usenet Newsgroups as vBulletin had not yet been invented).

You should NEVER chemically strip fresh paint which I point out *here* in the first sentence after the title of the article. The sentence even starts with the word *WARNING* in red.



Mike Phillips said:


> *WARNING
> *Do not chemically strip *FRESH PAINT*. Fresh paint has not fully cross-linked, dried and hardened. Introducing any type of solvent to the surface and allowing it to dwell could have a negative effect on the paint.


The paragraph immediately below the above sentence is also important.

Of course there's always _*common sense*_... for example allowing some time to go by and let the paint and body panels *cool down* before chemically stripping them with any type of solvent mixture.

To put thing in extremes...

*IF* you're going to chemically strip the paint... then you have to use *something*...

I'll leave the "something" up to you and your best judgment.

I learned about using MS or Mineral Spirits from working with the chemists at Meguiar's. They used laboratory grade MS but from what I understand that's simply a high grade of mineral spirits and high grade really means all the nasty substances have been removed. Things like the _*volatile organic compounds*_ which are the substances that would give a solvent a *solvent odor*. The VOC's, that is the volatile organic compounds evaporate easily and thus become airborne and that's why you would smell them.

If you go to the store you can purchase "Odorless Mineral Spirits", that's another way of saying more refined, or laboratory grade mineral spirits.

So if you choose to use mineral spirits, do get a high quality brand.

As for me? I only strip my Test Spot and I only strip the paint if that's what the manufacture of the LSP I'm using states is a necessary step.

Note that when it comes to Optimum products, Dr. David Ghodoussi says you can wipe the painted surfaces clean using a water dampened microfiber towel. Again, water is a solvent. There are _*water in oil emulsions*_ and there are _*oil in water emulsions*_, so what works for one brand of product might not necessarily work for another brand of products, that's why it's important to find out what the manufacturer recommends as they know their product chemistry best.

Also... I cover just about any topic or issue related to chemically stripping paint in these two articles,

*How to Mix IPA for Inspecting Correction Results*

*Miscible and Immiscible - Wax and Paint Sealant Bonding*



Racer said:


> Did you used the eraser from car pro for removing the polishing oils???


Not in this article we're discussing. I listed what I used and even included pictures. IPA mixed at 12% and MS straight.





















Racer said:


> I do it after polishing and if the paint mars easily i only wash the car with a strong shampoo solution and chemical stripper .


The most important thing for each one of us is to find an approach that works for us individually. I use to have the below quote as a Signature *Line for years...*

*"Find something you like and use it often"*

This was a fun article to write and the *BIG PICTURE* idea is that while it's possible to buff paint with a rotary buffer and leave a 100% swirl or hologram free finish even AFTER chemically stripping and inspecting in bright, overhead sunlight, it's not possible to do on every paint system ever sprayed since the history of the car.

I find people bragging that they can produce a 100% swirl free finish using ONLY a rotary buffer on every car they buff out, which is like saying they can produce a 100% swirl or hologram free finish on every paint system ever sprayed since the history of the car.

I don't believe it. I've done too much testing on black paint.

I also notice that the people making these claims never document how they prove their claims like I did in this article.

*The even BIGGER PICTURE... *
Instead of going to the time and hassle of chemically stripping paint to prove to yourself and others that you left a 100% hologram free finish on every car you buff out, (without testing how would you actually know?), for you last machine polishing step... change the action of the tool to one of rotating and oscillating instead of just rotating.

*KISS = Keep it Simple Simon*

:thumb:


----------



## toni

Mike Phillips said:


> Sometimes on detailing discussion forums I find it helps to position topics in _*extremes*_, which I'm going to do here to make my second point. My first point is to keep in mind, I don't make the paints, I don't make the waxes, sealants or coatings and I certainly don't make IPA, or MS or any other product intended to chemically strip polishing oils, waxes, silicones, polymers or fillers off paint. So whether any of these things are good or bad or indifferent I'm not the source for these items.
> 
> That said, when you machine buff paint you increase its temperature and cause it to expand. In it's expanded form it is more easily affected and penetrated by solvents of any type except _probably_ water. (Water is a solvent, it dissolves dirt).
> 
> Is this an problem? I don't recall ever reading a thread on any detailing discussion forum where a person shared their horror story of a paint job ruined as a result of chemically stripping paint while the paint was still warm with ANY brand or type of solvent mixture.
> 
> Can it happen? Probably, but if it does happen it's the exception not the rule as I just can't remember ever reading about any issues like this since I started posting to discussion forums in 1994. (Back then it was Usenet Newsgroups as vBulletin had not yet been invented).
> 
> You should NEVER chemically strip fresh paint which I point out *here* in the first sentence after the title of the article. The sentence even starts with the word *WARNING* in red.
> 
> The paragraph immediately below the above sentence is also important.
> 
> Of course there's always _*common sense*_... for example allowing some time to go by and let the paint and body panels *cool down* before chemically stripping them with any type of solvent mixture.
> 
> To put thing in extremes...
> 
> *IF* you're going to chemically strip the paint... then you have to use *something*...
> 
> I'll leave the "something" up to you and your best judgment.
> 
> I learned about using MS or Mineral Spirits from working with the chemists at Meguiar's. They used laboratory grade MS but from what I understand that's simply a high grade of mineral spirits and high grade really means all the nasty substances have been removed. Things like the _*volatile organic compounds*_ which are the substances that would give a solvent a *solvent odor*. The VOC's, that is the volatile organic compounds evaporate easily and thus become airborne and that's why you would smell them.
> 
> If you go to the store you can purchase "Odorless Mineral Spirits", that's another way of saying more refined, or laboratory grade mineral spirits.
> 
> So if you choose to use mineral spirits, do get a high quality brand.
> 
> As for me? I only strip my Test Spot and I only strip the paint if that's what the manufacture of the LSP I'm using states is a necessary step.
> 
> Note that when it comes to Optimum products, Dr. David Ghodoussi says you can wipe the painted surfaces clean using a water dampened microfiber towel. Again, water is a solvent. There are _*water in oil emulsions*_ and there are _*oil in water emulsions*_, so what works for one brand of product might not necessarily work for another brand of products, that's why it's important to find out what the manufacturer recommends as they know their product chemistry best.
> 
> Also... I cover just about any topic or issue related to chemically stripping paint in these two articles,
> 
> *How to Mix IPA for Inspecting Correction Results*
> 
> *Miscible and Immiscible - Wax and Paint Sealant Bonding*


Thank you very much for the very comprehensive answer :thumb:

I caught the "solvents bad for paint" bug from the various discussions I found circling on detailing forums. Dr. G (since you mentioned him) being one who recommends not using IPA on paint in concentrations higher than 20% as it may temporarily soften the paint and probably cause damage in the long run if used periodically. Since then I've started looking for alternatives to IPA for residue removal.
Your insight on this topic bears high importance, especially if Meguiar's chemists use mineral spirits on paint without causing damage.


----------



## Racer

Mike Phillips said:


> Sometimes on detailing discussion forums I find it helps to position topics in _*extremes*_, which I'm going to do here to make my second point. My first point is to keep in mind, I don't make the paints, I don't make the waxes, sealants or coatings and I certainly don't make IPA, or MS or any other product intended to chemically strip polishing oils, waxes, silicones, polymers or fillers off paint. So whether any of these things are good or bad or indifferent I'm not the source for these items.
> 
> That said, when you machine buff paint you increase its temperature and cause it to expand. In it's expanded form it is more easily affected and penetrated by solvents of any type except _probably_ water. (Water is a solvent, it dissolves dirt).
> 
> Is this an problem? I don't recall ever reading a thread on any detailing discussion forum where a person shared their horror story of a paint job ruined as a result of chemically stripping paint while the paint was still warm with ANY brand or type of solvent mixture.
> 
> Can it happen? Probably, but if it does happen it's the exception not the rule as I just can't remember ever reading about any issues like this since I started posting to discussion forums in 1994. (Back then it was Usenet Newsgroups as vBulletin had not yet been invented).
> 
> You should NEVER chemically strip fresh paint which I point out *here* in the first sentence after the title of the article. The sentence even starts with the word *WARNING* in red.
> 
> The paragraph immediately below the above sentence is also important.
> 
> Of course there's always _*common sense*_... for example allowing some time to go by and let the paint and body panels *cool down* before chemically stripping them with any type of solvent mixture.
> 
> To put thing in extremes...
> 
> *IF* you're going to chemically strip the paint... then you have to use *something*...
> 
> I'll leave the "something" up to you and your best judgment.
> 
> I learned about using MS or Mineral Spirits from working with the chemists at Meguiar's. They used laboratory grade MS but from what I understand that's simply a high grade of mineral spirits and high grade really means all the nasty substances have been removed. Things like the _*volatile organic compounds*_ which are the substances that would give a solvent a *solvent odor*. The VOC's, that is the volatile organic compounds evaporate easily and thus become airborne and that's why you would smell them.
> 
> If you go to the store you can purchase "Odorless Mineral Spirits", that's another way of saying more refined, or laboratory grade mineral spirits.
> 
> So if you choose to use mineral spirits, do get a high quality brand.
> 
> As for me? I only strip my Test Spot and I only strip the paint if that's what the manufacture of the LSP I'm using states is a necessary step.
> 
> Note that when it comes to Optimum products, Dr. David Ghodoussi says you can wipe the painted surfaces clean using a water dampened microfiber towel. Again, water is a solvent. There are _*water in oil emulsions*_ and there are _*oil in water emulsions*_, so what works for one brand of product might not necessarily work for another brand of products, that's why it's important to find out what the manufacturer recommends as they know their product chemistry best.
> 
> Also... I cover just about any topic or issue related to chemically stripping paint in these two articles,
> 
> *How to Mix IPA for Inspecting Correction Results*
> 
> *Miscible and Immiscible - Wax and Paint Sealant Bonding*
> 
> Not in this article we're discussing. I listed what I used and even included pictures. IPA mixed at 12% and MS straight.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The most important thing for each one of us is to find an approach that works for us individually. I use to have the below quote as a Signature *Line for years...*
> 
> *"Find something you like and use it often"*
> 
> This was a fun article to write and the *BIG PICTURE* idea is that while it's possible to buff paint with a rotary buffer and leave a 100% swirl or hologram free finish even AFTER chemically stripping and inspecting in bright, overhead sunlight, it's not possible to do on every paint system ever sprayed since the history of the car.
> 
> I find people bragging that they can produce a 100% swirl free finish using ONLY a rotary buffer on every car they buff out, which is like saying they can produce a 100% swirl or hologram free finish on every paint system ever sprayed since the history of the car.
> 
> I don't believe it. I've done too much testing on black paint.
> 
> I also notice that the people making these claims never document how they prove their claims like I did in this article.
> 
> *The even BIGGER PICTURE... *
> Instead of going to the time and hassle of chemically stripping paint to prove to yourself and others that you left a 100% hologram free finish on every car you buff out, (without testing how would you actually know?), for you last machine polishing step... change the action of the tool to one of rotating and oscillating instead of just rotating.
> 
> *KISS = Keep it Simple Simon*
> 
> :thumb:


Thank you Mike for your down to earth reply. :thumb:


----------

