# Next polisher



## butler (Apr 6, 2008)

So i have just sold my flex 3401, never really liked it tbh.. i started out years ago with the silverline rotary then onto the das 6 then the flex.... also have the shinemate 803 for the smaller stuff...

Only have one car now so just want the best all round machine, have been looking at the rupes...? anyone opinions or advice....?

Cheers


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## GeeWhizRS (Nov 1, 2019)

I just used my Rupes LHR12E for the first time today. I can't imagine why you would need anything else if you were just doing a few cars once or twice a year. A smaller pad size might be useful but I managed to do what I needed to do with it. I just added a post to the 'what detailing did you do today' thread.


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## Walesy. (Oct 1, 2009)

GeeWhizRS said:


> I just used my Rupes LHR12E for the first time today. I can't imagine why you would need anything else if you were just doing a few cars once or twice a year. A smaller pad size might be useful but I managed to do what I needed to do with it. I just added a post to the 'what detailing did you do today' thread.


Is this a forced DA bud?


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## GeeWhizRS (Nov 1, 2019)

No it's not forced. I'm new to all this polishing malarky but I haven't noticed anything even approaching stalling or bogging down at all. It's my first polisher so I have nothing to compare it to but I have no complaints.


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## Steampunk (Aug 11, 2011)

To dial-in on what will fit your application, I'll need a few more details...

First, what is your current single car?

Secondly, what didn't you like about your VRG, and what did you like about your rotary and 8mm free-rotation DA?

Thirdly, do you have polishes/pads you definitely want to keep using, or are you open to putting together a new kit of pads/polishes that will get the best results from your new machine?

A lot has moved on in the world of machines, but if you expect to change backing plates and have one machine that can do it all, the rotary and the 8mm free-throw DA are still the two most versatile machines available. However, these machines are more limited in their scope than some of the newer systems.

Long-throw DA's like the Rupes Bigfoot system require the purchase of three machines to cover the different size ranges, and whilst are perfectly fine on flatter panels, do struggle on concaves panels by design. The plus-side is, they feature almost rotary-like smoothness and speed of correction when paired with the right pad/polish combo, but are much easier to use for the beginner, and have a useful mid-range that rotaries lack. At the top-end of the cut spectrum, I find them lacking compared to forced rotation machines, as one cannot apply the same level of pressure without kickback.

Forced rotation DA's like your Flex (I own a Festool RO125, which is a little more of a compact and precise instrument, but still quite powerful.), are possibly at the top of the food-chain when it comes to real-world correction potential, and won't bog on concave panels, but with the wrong pad/polish combo are an unbearable handful. With the right pad/polish, they're very easy to control. At the moment, forced-rotation DA's are not as well developed a system as long-throw or rotaries, but like 8mm free-rotation DA's, one can squeeze a 5.5" pad into amazingly tight places since they have a short stroke and are resistant to stalling.

Rotaries are perfectly smooth operating by design, and can handle any pad size from 1-8", but have two flaws... One, they require a deft touch that befits one who uses them often or who adopts the 'bicycle rider's approach' (Once one learns, one never forgets, but one accepts that there is always a learning curve again if one hasn't ridden for long.). Second, they have a hole in the middle of their cut range, where the ever useful '1-step' correction' spectrum resides. They cut and finish beautifully, but not at the same time. DA's can't quite match them in the extremes of cut or finish, but in the middle where one expects a compromise between both, are untouchable.

Entry-level 8MM free-rotation DA's are the second easiest tool in the world to pick up, accommodate 3.5" to 5.5" pads, with some effort can be optimized to create amazing results, and are much more versatile than their longer stroke or forced rotation brethren. However, they're made for infrequent usage, and if you are a more serious user their vibration and lack of power can effect your health badly. They're consumer tools; not prosumer or professional ones. You can achieve equally amazing results to anything else, but the journey to them is harder.

To get the best from any of these systems, you _have_ to put them together with the right pads and polish that match the tool and paint.

If I never had an 'enhancement' detail to do, and my work was always for 'perfection', then 2-stepping twice a year with a lightweight rotary would be what I'd do.

If the panels on my car were pretty simple (Basic flats and convex, rather than complex contours with concave sections.), I could invest in three machines, and I just wanted to get stuff done as quickly and easily as possible... I'd go long-throw.

If the panels on my car weren't flat, I still wanted 1-stepping, and I needed to really lean into a machine to truly maximize what was possible, I'd go with a forced-rotation DA. Probably Rupes Mille if I could handle the weight, or Festool RO125 if I couldn't... Since neither of these will handle pads smaller than 5", one needs a tool to handle spot work to go with it. Rotary, most likely, or a tool like a Rupes Nano iBrid. Either would need a totally different selection of pads, polishes, and techniques than your main tool. Running two systems adds to the expense.

8mm free-rotation DA's are the Swiss Army Knife of polishers... If you're a MacGyver personality, you can push them FAR beyond their capabilities, they're cheap, and they're really incredibly versatile in a pinch. Part of me still is attracted by that concept. However, if you're a lazy bum with deep pockets, long-throw systems like the Rupes Bigfoot will be much more satisfying to use providing you're willing to get a couple of machines and equip them right with compatible pads/polishes. If you're using it more than a few times a year, 'prosumer' machines are much better for you than consumer ones.

If a couple times a year, you whizz around with an AIO, Glaze, or fairly light polish/pad combo, get a DA system of some sort that's within your price range. If you're doing proper concours work, get a rotary, and practice with it on a routine basis. Deepest but easiest pockets are on the Rupes Bigfoot system. A little more hardcore, and you go forced rotation DA for your main, and supplement with either long-throw micro polishers or a compact rotary for spot work. Craftsman mentality, where you polish paint like it's a nervous habit, you should get a proper rotary to do it all. Diffident consumers or MacGyvers equally are best with tools like the DAS-6 or Meg's MT320.

Paintwork correction is a lifestyle.. If other parts of your detailing mean more to you, simplify your correction regime, and enjoy the bits you love the most. However, if paintwork correction is your 'zen', then spend the dosh on it and do it the way you'll enjoy it the most.

Hope this helps... :buffer:

- Steampunk


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## butler (Apr 6, 2008)

What s great reply, read it twice need to read it again lol... so current car is a vw t6 caravelle... my rotary was my first polisher and used it with autosmart evo 3 and always felt I got great results albeit heavy to use... the das 6 just seemed a really easy lightweight machine that I could do a one stage enhancement with an S20... I think the flex moved around too much for my liking and although I had the 115 backing plate I did not like its ability to get into smaller areas....


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## butler (Apr 6, 2008)

I'm happy to put together a new kit which is why I was looking at the rupes kits..


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## Steampunk (Aug 11, 2011)

More powerful types of DA, like forced rotation and long throw, are much more sensitive to pad/polish pairing than DAS-6 type machines. The recoil and torque they can create can make them very unpleasant to use, but this can be tamed. With the wrong pad/compound, my forced rotation RO125 feels like it'll rip itself out of your hands, but with a different pad and compound of the same or sometimes even greater cut level, can practically be steered around the panel with just a single finger resting on the head of the machine. I encountered the same thing with long-throw DA's, which are real jackhammers unless configured right, but can run with gyroscopic smoothness. 

Your Caravelle's large flat panel areas make it ideal for a long throw polisher setup, and the reasons you liked your previous tools for would suggest you'd probably like long throws, as they blend some of those characteristics. They have high correction speeds, need only light pressure, and run smooth like rotaries, but have that mid-range 1-stepping ability, and ease of use of free rotation DA's. 

One thing I would warn of, however, is that if you struggled getting your VRG with 5.5" pads into smaller areas, an LHR12 or LHR15 would be far worse. Even an LHR75 will only be marginally more capable, as the base circle of the spinning pad is close to 5" (An 8mm throw DA with a 5.5" pad has a just under 6" diameter contact area. An LHR15 would give you a roughly 7" effective contact area, even though the backing plate is the same size.), and cannot be tilted much at all to shrink the contact patch (A trick possible with shorter throw DA's, and forced rotation machines.). To get true spot performance with a long throw, you have to have something like the Rupes Nano iBrid as part of your set. This adds some significant expense. 

Newer rotaries are much lighter and easier to handle (Check out something like the Rupes LH19E, or Metabo PE 15-20. The LH19E is actually notably lighter than their DA's.), and would be much more economical, as one machine with different backing plates could handle every panel... It would also be fast and smooth. However, you'd lose that approachable character and 1-stepping ability of a free rotating DA. 

You could set up a forced rotation DA to run smoothly, but since you've already gone this direction, getting another forced rotation DA is probably much less appealing an idea. You'd also still end up having to mix and match machines, since there is no truly effective spot-sized forced rotation (How long will it take Rupes to realize we need a Mille Mini? :buffer

Since you like to use Scholl, if you go long-throw, I'd get some Buff & Shine Uro-Tec Burgundy pads, and Rupes Yellow pads to pair with S20 Black. This combo will run smooth. 

Hope this helps... :thumb: 

- Steampunk


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## Gas head (May 28, 2010)

another vote for the ibrid long neck, use it alot


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## BrummyPete (Jun 10, 2010)

GeeWhizRS said:


> I just used my Rupes LHR12E for the first time today. I can't imagine why you would need anything else if you were just doing a few cars once or twice a year. A smaller pad size might be useful but I managed to do what I needed to do with it. I just added a post to the 'what detailing did you do today' thread.


Ive been looking at this model, was wondering how you got on with it in regards to any vibration whilst using it, Ive always got on with a rotary, I did try a das6 once and couldn't get on with the vibrations.


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## GeeWhizRS (Nov 1, 2019)

It's as smooth as snot mate. I'm happy to do a short video of it in use if that's of any help. I'm not sure if you would be able to pick up whether there's any vibration or not in the footage though. If you have any ideas of how I could demonstrate this, I'm happy to try it.


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## BrummyPete (Jun 10, 2010)

GeeWhizRS said:


> It's as smooth as snot mate. I'm happy to do a short video of it in use if that's of any help. I'm not sure if you would be able to pick up whether there's any vibration or not in the footage though. If you have any ideas of how I could demonstrate this, I'm happy to try it.


Cheers for getting back to me, I have seen a few vids but unfortunately as you say its near impossible to see any vibrations, but not many people mention how smooth it is


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## atbalfour (Aug 11, 2019)

I'm in a similar dilemma - current machine polisher is playing up (Detalyo DAS6 with 165mm pads). My mate gave it to me a few years back and with great pads and abrasives from ZviZZer I have managed results I am happy with.

I've never enjoyed polishing though and I reckon this is because I'm using a budget machine with pretty intense vibrations.

My own car is coated so unlikely to be touched for a while, looking to spend a bit more time on my wife's car as well as family cars a couple of times a year - don't think I can justify a Flex etc using it so little.

Do the same recommendations as above apply? I have been recommended the DA 6 Pro Plus or ShineMate EP802 by a guy I know but good to get other ideas and feedback before I hit the button on one of them.


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## saul (Nov 27, 2013)

Steampunk said:


> More powerful types of DA, like forced rotation and long throw, are much more sensitive to pad/polish pairing than DAS-6 type machines. The recoil and torque they can create can make them very unpleasant to use, but this can be tamed. With the wrong pad/compound, my forced rotation RO125 feels like it'll rip itself out of your hands, but with a different pad and compound of the same or sometimes even greater cut level, can practically be steered around the panel with just a single finger resting on the head of the machine. I encountered the same thing with long-throw DA's, which are real jackhammers unless configured right, but can run with gyroscopic smoothness.
> 
> Your Caravelle's large flat panel areas make it ideal for a long throw polisher setup, and the reasons you liked your previous tools for would suggest you'd probably like long throws, as they blend some of those characteristics. They have high correction speeds, need only light pressure, and run smooth like rotaries, but have that mid-range 1-stepping ability, and ease of use of free rotation DA's.
> 
> ...


Hi Steampunk,

I've just recently purchased a forced rotation DA, in particular this one. Which pad & polish would you recommend? Also how do you do this "You could set up a forced rotation DA to run smoothly"?


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## Steampunk (Aug 11, 2011)

saul said:


> Hi Steampunk,
> 
> I've just recently purchased a forced rotation DA, in particular this one. Which pad & polish would you recommend? Also how do you do this "You could set up a forced rotation DA to run smoothly"?


Optimizing a DA to run as smooth as it can is a process of matching pad, polish, and technique with the paint type, defect, and climate... To use an Optimum marketing term (Which I hate to do for two reasons... One, it's a marketing term. Two, I've been well cheesed off with them since they discontinued Optimum Polish II. :wall: ), it's about creating s-y-n-e-r-g-y [Note: Spelled stupid for forum reasons. It's banned as a whole word.]. This is a trial and error process of R&D to figure out what all works together...

I could point you in the direction of what sorts of combos might run the smoothest on your machine, but what you actually should buy depends upon your needs, your environment, your tastes, and your vehicle...

If you want to max-out the cutting potential of an 8mm forced-rotation DA, I'd look into short-pile wool pads. Rupes Coarse Blue Wool, the CarPro Ring Wool, Lake Country Short Purple Foamed Wool, Anhui Maxshine short wool pads (These are oft rebranded), etc. These sorts of pads can be combined with a handful of polishes (Scholl's S3 XXL and S17+ pair well depending upon how much cut you need, but there are some Menz polishes that would work especially if you're in a climate controlled space, and possibly some other brands. Wool tends to be more forgiving than foam when it comes to running smooth on forced rotation machines.).

That'll cover you in the P1200-3000 sanding scratch level defect range.

Next up, I'd look at the Scholl Purple Spider pads. Pair those with something like S2 Shock 2 Cut, S20 Black, or S20 Blue depending upon your needs. Use S2 S2C if you want to get an intermediate cut on hard paint. S20 Black for 1-stepping on medium-hard to medium-soft paints. S20 Blue for really sticky paints.

That'll cover the P2000-Intermediate 1-Stepping sort of range.

Next up, CarPro's Polishing Pads (Orange Foam). This is an amazing, and highly underrated pad on these sorts of tools. At this point, the pads are getting low enough in the cut range that many polishes will run smooth on them, but it's just getting to be an issue of what will have the best cut/finish properties when paired with them. Out of what I've used, I'd say M205 for the medium-hard stuff, S30+ for medium-soft stuff, CarPro Essence if you want an enhancement combo that will fill, and you can follow with a nano LSP.

Chemical Guy's Hex Logic Blue if you want a pad that'll contour well, and provides a cut level in between a polishing pad and a finishing pad... Something that you'd apply AIO's, pre-wax cleaners, glazes, etc with...

Scholl NEO Honey Spider pads with S40 or CarPro Essence for finishing on really soft, tricky paints, and gloss plastic trims...

That kit will cover most things... Make sure to get enough pads for the size of your vehicle. If you're polishing at a panel at a time, I'd get at least 2 of each. If you're trying to polish a whole medium size saloon or larger hatch, I'd go with half a dozen of each.

Hope this helps... :thumb:

- Steampunk


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## Steampunk (Aug 11, 2011)

atbalfour said:


> I'm in a similar dilemma - current machine polisher is playing up (Detalyo DAS6 with 165mm pads). My mate gave it to me a few years back and with great pads and abrasives from ZviZZer I have managed results I am happy with.
> 
> I've never enjoyed polishing though and I reckon this is because I'm using a budget machine with pretty intense vibrations.
> 
> ...


Long throws aren't a great 1-tool solution. Depending upon the size and shape of the panels on the car, a 5-6" BP long throw might only be usable on a couple of panels, though ones with large and relatively flat or convexed surface areas can make use of such tools more extensively. Also, unless you have the right pads and polishes to match, they can be a nightmare in terms of recoil/kickback. They're smooth when setup well, though.

Rotaries are inherently smooth, but aren't the best tools if used infrequently without at least some scrap-panel practice in between... They're awesome at the top and bottom of the cut range, but if you do 1-step corrections with your current DA (Like using a P2500 rated polish on an intermediate polishing/light cutting pad.), these sorts of jobs will become 2-steps on a rotary. As a plus side, they are 1-tool solutions, as they can easily accommodate any size of backing plate and pad you'd need.

For your application, I'd actually stick with an 8mm free-rotation DA... They're easy to pick up for occasional use and get to grips with relatively quickly after a hiatus, can be squeezed into tighter spaces and concave curves better than a long-throw, and allow for multiple BP sizes.

The MT320 by Meg's is the premium 8mm free-throw DA option, and is supposed to be the smoothest running of this genre of tools, but is maybe a bit overpriced in the UK... If you can pony-up for it, this sort of tool would fit well.

You can improve on the vibration situation at least a bit with different pads and polishes. The following products will very probably improve the performance of your existing machine.

If you've got or can buy even a cheap air compressor, go with microfiber pads and non-diminishing compounds like D300 and M101. If not, Scholl's White Spider Sandwich and S3 XXL, or S20 Black.

Follow that up with Scholl's NEO Honey Spider and M205 or Scholl S30+ or CarPro Essence, and you'd have a nice 2-step duo.

Try to use a 5" BP as much as you can (I'd recommend the Meguiar's variant... Meg's backing plates ran for me a lot better than any other when I was running an 8mm DA.), as this is typically the weight range with pads that these DA's are smoother in.

For spot pads, with a 3" BP, I'd go Scholl... White Spider Sandwich and Flat Orange. Best available for the price.

Hope this helps...

- Steampunk


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## atbalfour (Aug 11, 2019)

Thanks for the comprehensive reply Steampunk.

If I wasn't to venture outside of a standard free rotation DA is there much difference in a £230 machine like this Megs one vs. a budget one?


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## GeeWhizRS (Nov 1, 2019)

If you're looking at spending that amount atbalfour, throw the Rupes LHR12E into the mix. If you were unhappy with your last DA because of vibration, I can vouch that Rupes does not have that problem. Rupes have a flow chart (below) I found handy that guides you to selecting the right machine for your requirements. The numbers relate to the throw of the machine and colour of pad. I intend to use mine again tomorrow so can take a few short videos of it in action. The only real downside is that it just has an on/off switch rather than a trigger. If you can live without that, check it out.


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## Alan W (May 11, 2006)

Interesting chart and whilst I am a great fan of Rupes polishers and possess both DA and rotary machines (4 in total :wall I don’t agree with using a polisher with a 12mm throw for sanding, if possible.

A short throw somewhere between 3mm and 6mm, such as offered by the Festool Rotex, will produce a better and finer finish. 

Alan W

EDIT: Just to add that the Rupes Nano IBrid includes 3mm and 12mm throw DA adaptors and it is the 3mm throw adaptor they recommend for sanding.


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## GeeWhizRS (Nov 1, 2019)

Quick video here for you Pete. 



 Just to show the Rupes in action; not sure if you can gauge smoothness or not. I certainly don't experience any vibration issues.
Note: Please be aware this is my second time using a polisher so go steady on the critiquing! 😂Also, my arms were hanging off by this stage so I was going a bit faster than when I started. Car looks great though.


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## Andyblue (Jun 20, 2017)

GeeWhizRS said:


> It's as smooth as snot mate. I'm happy to do a short video of it in use if that's of any help. I'm not sure if you would be able to pick up whether there's any vibration or not in the footage though. If you have any ideas of how I could demonstrate this, I'm happy to try it.


Where did you purchase it from mate ?

Seriously considering purchasing one...

Did you buy a kit ?

Cheers :thumb:


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## Steveom2 (Jul 29, 2018)

Andyblue said:


> Where did you purchase it from mate ?
> 
> Seriously considering purchasing one...
> 
> ...


There's one on eBay with a few extras


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## GeeWhizRS (Nov 1, 2019)

I got mine from clean and shiny Andy (no kit, just the machine, but you get a yellow pad with it). That was the cheapest I could find with the discount code. I also ordered another 5 yellow pads. The sonax perfect finish was a bit crap and dried up to little balls, the Keramik was spot on.


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## Alan W (May 11, 2006)

GeeWhizRS said:


> Quick video here for you Pete.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Glad you're liking the Keramik polish! :buffer:

Just a heads-up but it's worth putting a mark on the white part of the backing plate with a Sharpie or similar. A small line (perpendicular to the edge) or even a dot will do. This allows you to see when the backing plate is not spinning and adjust the angle of the pad, or pressure, until you see the mark spinning round again (if the pad isn't spinning it isn't polishing ).

Alan W


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## GeeWhizRS (Nov 1, 2019)

Thanks Alan. I'm pretty sure the pad is nowhere near stopping, slowing or stalling though. I tried stopping it with my hand when I got it and near ripped my thumb off.

Edit. Before I clean the pads tomorrow, I'll maybe run one over the work surface in the garage (with a line on it) and see if I can get it to stall for you.


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## Andyblue (Jun 20, 2017)

Steve0rs6 said:


> There's one on eBay with a few extras


I'll have a look see...


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## Andyblue (Jun 20, 2017)

GeeWhizRS said:


> I got mine from clean and shiny Andy (no kit, just the machine, but you get a yellow pad with it). That was the cheapest I could find with the discount code. I also ordered another 5 yellow pads. The sonax perfect finish was a bit crap and dried up to little balls, the Keramik was spot on.


Thanks mate.

I'll have a look and see what they've got. You get the polish from them also ? Definitely sounds like a good polish to go for :thumb:


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## GeeWhizRS (Nov 1, 2019)

I got a litre from a seller on amazon for £31.95 delivered. Just checked and the link now goes to some green pads so I guess they are out of stock.


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## Alan W (May 11, 2006)

GeeWhizRS said:


> Thanks Alan. I'm pretty sure the pad is nowhere near stopping, slowing or stalling though. I tried stopping it with my hand when I got it and near ripped my thumb off.


I just thought I noticed the pad not rotating as you sped across the top of the door near the end of the video and hence why I recommended the line on the backing plate. Stalling or slowing doesn't tend to happen on large flat panels only concave or convex panels and when very little pad is in contact with the surface. :buffer:



GeeWhizRS said:


> Edit. Before I clean the pads tomorrow, I'll maybe run one over the work surface in the garage (with a line on it) and see if I can get it to stall for you.


No need, thanks, as I doubt you'll stall it on a flat surface as said above.


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## BrummyPete (Jun 10, 2010)

GeeWhizRS said:


> Quick video here for you Pete.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Cheers mate, as with some comments def out a line on the side of the pad, you don't realise it's not spinning til you look at the mark, looks like a good machine


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## GeeWhizRS (Nov 1, 2019)

I'll have a play and lean on a pad at an angle. It really does have some torque. Stay tuned.


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## GeeWhizRS (Nov 1, 2019)

Ok I've had a play and fair enough, I could get it to stall if I leaned on it. It was a useful exercise because I know as long as I don't go mad with pressure it should keep on spinning. :thumb:


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## Itstony (Jan 19, 2018)

GeeWhizRS said:


> Ok I've had a play and fair enough, I could get it to stall if I leaned on it. It was a useful exercise because I know as long as I don't go mad with pressure it should keep on spinning. :thumb:


Not quite following this, so apologies if this is not pertinent.
I am well happy with the Rupes tools and the LHR 75 is a must have.

As far as worrying about the tool stalling etc. you may find it will help to focus on how you hold and guide the tool. which is just plain practise.
Try watching the shape and appearance of the product during the passes. For me personally this is what I focus on most. It shows me exactly whats going on and what needs to change and what it's doing.
If you are using Rupes Y pad and Karamimik, arguably the best of Rupes DA range compounds, priming the pad correctly as per Rupes is important. Not the only way, just their way and it works for me. Maybe too much product is the common mistake. 
Plenty of time later to be doing the off piste stuff after. :thumb:


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## GeeWhizRS (Nov 1, 2019)

Tony, can you explain (or link to) how you Rupes want me to prime the pad? I was just adding 4 dollops (large pea) of polish on a clean pad, then 3 dollops on subsequent passes. Ta.


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## Alan W (May 11, 2006)

Here you go:

How to prime RUPES polishing pads

I apply 4 pea size spots and a bit of pressue whilst running against the paint without moving the machine (as in the link).

Alan W


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## GeeWhizRS (Nov 1, 2019)

Thanks Alan. That's the way I was doing it.
This Keramik being dark has left dark areas on my nice clean yellow pads! My thumbs are aching trying to shift it so have given up.


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## Alan W (May 11, 2006)

GeeWhizRS said:


> Thanks Alan. That's the way I was doing it.
> This Keramik being dark has left dark areas on my nice clean yellow pads! My thumbs are aching trying to shift it so have given up.


Aaww! 

You need to clean the pads the same day and not leave overnight. 

Alan W


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## Itstony (Jan 19, 2018)

Rupes demonstration guys showed me how to do it their way.
2x pea size product on a pad.
Pad face down start tool and depress for 20seconds. It's primed.
then add 4 x pea sized product, hold face down and go about the section.
They said there was no reason to spread the product first, or extra product to the surface either. Most people do that though.
Before this starts a row :lol: this is only what they suggest, but many do it their own way.
Just checked and found this link below. It is a tiny bit different, but more or less the same.
I am no expert by any means, but this works and I would suggest to try it and see how you feel. TBH you will see/know if you need to change this at times a little, but that just depends on situation and few variables. If you see or feel the product is struggling, a spritz of water will reenergise the product and get you going again. You will find out, it's not rocket science, it's practice and if you take interest in what you are doing rather than going through the motions as per someone on Youtube.
My only tip is avoid using too much product/compound. Watch what's going on, the answers are there to see and learn from.
Ooops...sorry another tip. Use a compressor to remove any clear coat and product off of the pad at intervals. The Rupes or equivalent 'Claw' it a neat tool I like to clean them.
It's only my view that there was very little information on the basics. One thing I did learn long ago, take time learning the basics, it's the most important thing to learn. Then build on those and they will serve you well. 
Take your time and good luck.:thumb:

https://rupesusa.com/how-to-prime-rupes-polishing-pads/


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## Itstony (Jan 19, 2018)

Alan W said:


> Here you go:
> 
> How to prime RUPES polishing pads
> 
> ...


Your comment was not there when I started writing my reply Alan. :doublesho


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## GeeWhizRS (Nov 1, 2019)

That sonax crap I used last week came right out the day after. I think it's cause it's dark it's showing up more. It seems to be where I applied the blobs.


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## Alan W (May 11, 2006)

Itstony said:


> Your comment was not there when I started writing my reply Alan. :doublesho


You took too long to answer Tony! :lol: 

Alan W


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## GeeWhizRS (Nov 1, 2019)

Two goes with APC brought em up a lot better.


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## GeeWhizRS (Nov 1, 2019)

Hmmm further to the earlier 'how to prime the pad' question... I found this on youtube. Quite different on Rupes to what I've seen for other pads.


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## Alan W (May 11, 2006)

GeeWhizRS said:


> Hmmm further to the earlier 'how to prime the pad' question... I found this on youtube. Quite different on Rupes to what I've seen for other pads.


Yes, Rupes pad priming does differ and doing it like they advise in the TRC video does make a difference to how the polish and pad work. Building some heat during priming is the key to the subsequent polishing performance.

Alan W

EDIT: I'm pretty sure the heat opens the pores of the pad and allows the polish to be absorbed and therefore subsequent polish sits on the face of the pad and doesn't get absorbed into it. I could be wrong and stand to be corrected if anyone knows better though! :lol:


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## Itstony (Jan 19, 2018)

Alan W said:


> You took too long to answer Tony! :lol:
> 
> Alan W


Yeah I was, remind me not to get in a Gun Fight with you.:lol:
-----------------------------------------
On your explanation about pad priming, it does stop the 4x spotters only lose product into the pad. I see many guys using the same way they always did, spreading it, spotting it on the panel etc. If it works for them, and the fact they may use more product is OK with them.

I am a believer that if a big brand leader company spend millions on R&D, they probably know more than me, hence why I go with it and only after change if I am convinced it doesn't suit me. Not straight away.
I never get product splatter (unless id do something stupid) so happy to continue with priming. :thumb:
Only my opinion.:wave:


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## GeeWhizRS (Nov 1, 2019)

That's how I used it Tony because I didn't know any better at the time. Next time I will be warming that pad as per the video. :thumb:
Of course, this is likely to be 6 months so I'll probably have forgotten all about this by then.


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## Steampunk (Aug 11, 2011)

Alan W said:


> Yes, Rupes pad priming does differ and doing it like they advise in the TRC video does make a difference to how the polish and pad work. Building some heat during priming is the key to the subsequent polishing performance.
> 
> Alan W
> 
> EDIT: I'm pretty sure the heat opens the pores of the pad and allows the polish to be absorbed and therefore subsequent polish sits on the face of the pad and doesn't get absorbed into it. I could be wrong and stand to be corrected if anyone knows better though! :lol:


The Rupes priming technique is more about polish distribution than pad heat; the actual measured temp isn't that much to influence the fluid dynamics of the polish, or the pore structure of the pad... The reasons for Rupes' process is more mechanical.

To get a pad running smoothly, you need to distribute the lubricant of the polish evenly across the surface of the material to eliminate the grippy 'hotspots' of a dry pad.

All polishes respond differently to priming levels... Products like Rupes and Menzerna respond best to a relatively dry 'load', where you prime the pad with a few drops (4 with Menz, 6 with Rupes.), run the pad for a short period to get it distributed, and then add like 2-drops for the first set, then 3 for subsequent ones to just add fresh, undiminished abrasives.

Non-Diminishing products like Meg's respond best to having the full face of the pad spread with polish from the get-go, having the pad cleaned, and then a few dots of working product added per section for more cut, or even cleaning the pad, adding more polish, cleaning the pad, and then running it relatively 'dry' for the best finish following each set...

Products like Scholl and CarPro respond to a technique sort of halfway in between those two. You 'par prime' the pad before usage. It's all about managing the right abrasive/lubricant density on the pad, and getting it distributed.

There are two main theories in polishing: mechanical, and hydraulic abrasive isolation... The percentage shift between which is most important depending upon the polish and pad tech in question.

Imagine abrasives as sieve-graded bits of sand (With diminishing polishes, they're actually sieve-graded bits of grapeshot that break apart due to friction, but I digress.)... If you tried to apply even the finest polishing abrasives to paint without lubricant, using a hard lapidary plate made of marble or glass (Allowing the abrasives to function on their own.), they'd scour the paint and mess it up without cutting that much since paint isn't a very dense material. To get them to cut and finish efficiently, you need to buffer those particles somehow to both control particle surface pressure, and also control the swarf generated by the abraded paint. You need both mechanical and hydraulic functions to buffer those abrasives, but different products shift the balance between those two factors.

At one extreme you have sandpaper... A bonded, non-diminishing SiC abrasive that's isolated using an H20 + Stearate-Soap hydraulic layer. There's not a lot of hydraulic tension which prevents the particles from biting into the paint as deep as possible. This allows the abrasives to cut and level to their maximum potential, but means those particles bite deep into the paint with their unforgiving backing material which exposes at least 50% of their face to the paint, and doesn't limit too much pressure, so the finish will always be hazy/scratched, and you'll have a greater ratio of leveling to contouring.

Next up is foam-suspended sanding abrasives, like Trizact or Abralon... By giving these particles a surface into which they can contract into, you limit their penetration... This increases their finishing ability, but means the particles are more likely to give rather than bash their way through surface textures like orangepeel.

Following this, you have low-lubricant non-diminishing AlOx abrasive loads like Meg's M-series, or D300, or Ultimate series compounds/polishes... These are abrasive-dense suspensions in a glycerin/naphtha/mineral oil binder, that provides a limited amount of hydraulic isolation to those particles... You spread the liquid all over the entire pad quite heavily, which gives you a lot of abrasive concentration, but relatively limited hydraulic buffering... To expose more or less of those abrasives to the pad, and control their depth of cut, you can change the sort of pad you use. Microfiber or Wool will increase the quantity and surface area with which those abrasives can interact with the paint, with relatively low mechanical isolation, meaning they'll cut a lot but bite deep into the paint; cutting more, but leaving more marring. If you spread them over the whole surface of a fine-pored foam pad, you'll get a lower abrasive per-inch density, and a higher lubricant per inch density, changing the balance of the polish. If you increase the lubricant and decrease the abrasive density, you achieve less cut, but gain a finer polish since the abrasives are biting more shallowly into the paint, and there's more room for the swarf to be suspended in the lubricant, and mechanical structure of the pad. Finer foam pads increase surface tension of the lubricant, which improves isolation, but reduces particles per inch concentration of the abrasive, and clumps those particles into smaller, more lubricant rich pockets.

You can isolate the surface penetration of abrasives, or increase their PPI (Particles Per Inch) & PSI (Pressure per Square Inch) density depending upon the structure of the pad... The finer and shallower the pores, the smaller the clumps of abrasive become (Biting more shallowly into the paint), and the more the PSI increases of the lubricant to isolate the abrasives since there's less place for the lubricant to escape when compressed.

The more abrasives you have rather than lubricant, the more the structure of your media (In this case, pads for your polishes/compounds or the substrate of the sandpaper.) matters in terms of how deep it lets the abrasive bite into the paint at a structural/mechanical level.

Current diminishing polishes take the hydraulic/mechanical balance a couple steps further towards the hydraulic rather than mechanical balance... This is controlled with particle size, density, lubricant percentage, and solvency.

Products like Scholl are halfway between non-diminishing and diminishing abrasives... They require fairly high abrasive loads and a unique priming technique to distribute versus most diminishing polishes. You smudge the pad 8-15 times, spread it in with your fingers, and then add a few pea-sized blobs of product. This is about 1/3 the product usage of Meguiar's non-diminishing/SMAT compounds. However, the abrasives start at a larger size, and finisher at a smaller one, so at the end of the day you end up with cut that can sometimes be a littler more, and finish a little finer than a single-size abrasive, but over a shorter time period. The hydraulic properties of the lubricant are pad dependent, but can work on both some open and closed cell foam pads, as well as wool, but not all.

Rupes is a 6-blob, mechanically spread, then 2-blob priming system, and fairly heavily reliant on pad structure for isolation rather than lubricant hydraulics... Their polishes are a little 'lighter' in terms of their solvent/oil balance, so allow the abrasives to bite a bit deeper, but are more reliant on the structural isolation of the pad to control surface penetration levels. If you use something like Keramik on a Rupes Yellow or Scholl NEO Honey Spider pad (Both amazing pads for structural isolation of abrasives, though the Rupes Yellow cuts harder, and clogs faster.), you'll get amazing cut/finish performance. On a pad that increases hydraulic isolation pressure (A closed cell foam pad, for example.), they're a lot less impressive.

Menzerna is a 3-4 blob, mechanically spread, then 2-blob priming structure... The abrasives are large, but less densely packed compared to the lubricant, and benefit from a denser pad structure to let them work to their full advantage. They work best with denser pads (Closed cell, wool, or fine-pored open-cell.), versus other technologies, but require less actual product density. If you overload the pad, the lubricant is so rich it actually starts to interfere with cutting ability, so it doesn't work as well with pads requiring high product loads like microfiber.

In terms of finishing, both strong mechanical and hydraulic methods can achieve a fine finish... Likewise, both concepts can be used to increase the cut, at a loss of finish quality.

Textile pads work by increasing the abrasive-per-inch density versus foam pads, since their individual fibers create a larger surface area for abrasives to cling to, but require a very high lubricant density to finish well... Products like the now defunct Optimum Polish II could finish incredibly well on these sorts of pads due to their very strong lubricant.

Products like Meguiar's and Rupes finish better on open-cell, or semi-open cell pads which offer amazing abrasive isolation; decreasing the surface pressure and abrasives-per inch structure of the polish in question.

Products like Menzerna work best on pads which let their lubricant do the job intended... I.E., isolating the abrasives in a purely hydraulic fashion, and merely serving as a sort of 'butter knife' to spread them. This means, really high PPI open-cell, or moderately high PPI closed cell foams.

Correcting paint is about managing mechanical and hydraulic abrasive isolation, and particle density by selecting media which structures those abrasives, and provides the level of hydraulic isolation in the way you want... When viewed in this way, you have ultimate control over the way that paint is shaped, no matter its properties.

With polishing/sanding, you have abrasives of a certain or variable particle size and density, you have hydraulics, and you have structuring via the pads of those particles which impacts the hydraulics and cluster sizing. Control these, and you're in control of the base code of correction...

Then you start getting into the material science of paint, plastics, and metal. This is a matter of hardness, density, and chemical resistance. Certain polish solvents swell the structure of the paint/plastic for better or worse. Certain material densities/porosities respond best to certain polishes/pads.

Imagine the paint as a matrix, and the abrasives as clumps which fit into the matrix of the pad in a structural sense, and the lubricant suspending them as a mix of volatile and non-volatile liquids in a certain proportion which adjust the depth of penetration of both the abrasives and the swarf they cut off from the paint. Imagine these layers interacting together... Structure one, interacting with structure two, with abrasives suspended in a fluid being isolated into groups by structure two, together with the fluid controlling the depth of cut and the proportion of room for cutting swarf generated by the interaction with structure one. Swarf and abrasive are percentages, suspended within the fluid. The more particles, and the bigger the clusters they're gathered into, the more cut and the worse finish. The less abrasive and swarf, gathered into smaller clusters, with more surface tension from the lubricant, and the better the finish but the lesser the cut.

Envision these factors in your mind's eye, like if I asked you to imagine the solar system. Take a moment, and imagine all the planets revolving around the sun within space... In this case, the paint is the 'sun'; the fixed point. Abrasives in a fluid are moving over it, being structured by the pad, which also controls their fluid:solid density ratio. The planets are grinding down the sun, and the nature of space is controlling how they do it.

Keep that image in your mind's eye the whole time you're polishing... Every second, you're changing the solid:fluid density of the material being manipulated by the pad, as the abrasives cut more paint, and introduce swarf to the mixture... The more solids, and the less lubricant to suspend it, the less efficient your cut/finish ratio becomes. This is growing worse every second...

On top of this, you have the physics of how the pad is moving... G-Force loads vary depending upon the machine motion, which creates isolated pressure spikes and direction changes during the orbit, and alters the path of the abrasive which can change the optical characteristic of how light interacts with the scratch pattern it creates.

There's a beautiful complexity to their interaction. It's like being able to imagine particles interacting at an atomic level. If you can visualize them in real-time as you polish, you're in control, because your hands will start to follow what your brain sees.

- Steampunk


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## GeeWhizRS (Nov 1, 2019)

Sweet Jesus. No doubt Steampunk is self-isolating. 😂 Great piece that, thank you.
I feel like I don't want to ask you a question because you'll spend half a day answering it, but I'll risk it and hope you don't spend too much time on it. Let's say you were using a Rupes yellow foam pad with Keramik polish; you applied the 6 blobs to prime the pad and held the pad (as per Rupes info) against the panel in pretty much the same spot for 20-30 secs to coat the pad and warm it up a little. You then add 2 blobs to the pad; do you begin working from your primed area of panel or firstly go about dotting the polish around your chosen work area and then polishing?


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## Itstony (Jan 19, 2018)

GeeWhizRS said:


> Sweet Jesus. No doubt Steampunk is self-isolating. &#55357;&#56834; Great piece that, thank you.
> I feel like I don't want to ask you a question because you'll spend half a day answering it, but I'll risk it and hope you don't spend too much time on it. Let's say you were using a Rupes yellow foam pad with Keramik polish; you applied the 6 blobs to prime the pad and held the pad (as per Rupes info) against the panel in pretty much the same spot for 20-30 secs to coat the pad and warm it up a little. You then add 2 blobs to the pad; do you begin working from your primed area of panel or firstly go about dotting the polish around your chosen work area and then polishing?


You wont need to, he has pretty much covered it before and worth the quick search to find.

As you have the LHR 75 2x pea size to prime and the 4x to polish and go about the section, works fine. As suggested you can tweak and try as you go and that will add to what you know. Its practise. Try doing smaller sections I found helped :thumb:


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## GeeWhizRS (Nov 1, 2019)

I have the LHR12E Tony. :thumb:


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## Itstony (Jan 19, 2018)

GeeWhizRS said:


> I have the LHR12E Tony. :thumb:


Isn't that what I wrote 
:lol::lol:


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## Itstony (Jan 19, 2018)

Itstony said:


> Isn't that what I wrote
> :lol::lol:


My apologies .... just realised .... I thought you had the mini which I have. The 75 also has 12mm orb. :wall:


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## butler (Apr 6, 2008)

So after some great advice on here i went for the shinemate ep605, the cost was a factor and already owning the ep803 and happy with that i thought they would compliment each other... had a try of it today and really impressed... easy to handle, just the right weight and smooth...worked well with the microfibre pads....


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