# Rotary Discussion



## Neil_M (Apr 5, 2007)

Right folks, I'm a total beginner to machine polishing.

At present I'm well kitted out for hand polishing to a level that I am happy with.

However I understand the benefits of the G220 and it sounds very suitable to me. UK plug, warranty, support, plenty of accessories available etc.

My concern on them is that they are rather expensive at £150 being the average price. I'm aware there are some lower prices about.

For full correction I understand that many of the budget "buffers" aren't really up to many jobs. Even applying some hand products.

However I have been looking at some of the rotaries, for example the Kingdom Tools / Silver Line 180mm Polisher, priced at £29.78-£34.03. Should I regard the rotary as too "lethal" to a beginner? Bare in mind I am only looking to initially use some hands products like SRP before my confidence builds and I look at paint correction.

Other products I have looked at:
Kinzo 25C34EP Random Orbit Sander (http://www.godfrey-diy.co.uk/power-...5c34ep-random-orbit-sander/item32002500.html#)

Kinzo Car Polishing Machine 8E925EP (http://www.godfrey-diy.co.uk/car-care/polishing-machine/item32011040.html) (Recommended by AutoExpress - not that it means a great deal)

Comments are very welcome… Like wise with thoughts on other rotaries.

Neil


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## CupraRcleanR (Sep 2, 2007)

hi mate

Both of the featured tools aren't up to the job of correction. I wouldn't waste your money.

I have used the Orange Silverline and although it has its fault its is a definately usable machine. 

The nagatives in comparison to the more expensive Matebo's and Makita's is that it is bloody heavy and the speed slows down underpressure. These are more of a pain than a problem. It probably will conk out before the other also.

The other issue is that the pads are very poor IMHO and I replaced with Megs Polish and a Finishing Pad and the Megs backing plate available from he resellers on here.

I use the Menz polishes and have had very pleasing results. 

I hope this helps and hopefully someone else can give you some more advice.

The rotary is a very rewarding machine but has to be respected. I also feel it worth doing alot of reading and "searching" in here before parting with money and do your homework before putting machine to paintwork. Maybe work on some practice panels from a scrappy.

Sorry rambling now!

All the best


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## BIG BAVARIAN (May 7, 2006)

Neil_M said:


> Right folks, I'm a total beginner to machine polishing.
> 
> At present I'm well kitted out for hand polishing to a level that I am happy with.
> 
> ...


if you go down the rotary route practice on scrap panels,most newbies prefer to start on pc's / g220's which are easy to use and give good results,at the cost of time vs a rotary,the items you have listed i would steer clear of as not deemed suitable for your purpose(one is a sander,the orbit through will be too big,the other will have no cutting ability and bog down i,e press firmly and the machine grinds to a halt, the silverline will do the job,for the enthusiast detailer ,but won't stand 14 hour daily de-swirls/commercial use


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## Neil_M (Apr 5, 2007)

Thanks for the reply dude.

I will look out for more info on the Orange Silverline to see what the story is for it.

However for other potential rotary buyers, the Matebos and Makitas seem to be prices around £150-£170. The price does attract me to the Silverline.

But thanks for the reply again CupraRcleanR.


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## Bigpikle (May 21, 2007)

I'm no expert here, but have machined quite a few cars with a UDM and am now practicing with my first rotary.....here's my thoughts....

Get a G220 or similar and get some practice in. It will give you some results and tell you whether this is for you or not. It is something you will need to invest time and effort into, which isnt for everyone. Read the number of "I bought a G220/UDM and havent got the swirls out..." threads and see what I mean.

The G220 may take some time but WILL give good results when you get the hang of it - pretty safely. It will take some real effort to feck up your paint with it and most likely you will simply do not very much while you get the hang of it.... It will also be easy to sell for a good price should you decide its not for you.

The rotary however, as i am really finding out, is quite a tool and takes a lot of effort to learn properly, and may completely feck your paint while you try it. I'm making progres but not enough to go near a real car yet, and knowing how to get good good results from my UDM is a real bonus. Loads of differences but at least I have the basics nailed. I think the learning curve is much shorter, and somewhat safer, having learned the UDM to a decent standard.

Alternatively get to one of the meets and try out a machine. Machine polishing takes things to another level, but is A LOT more involved. Not everyone wants to spend 8+ hours bent over their car at weird angles trying to get a better finish, and I think the G220 and excellent kits from traders here are the best way to test the water. bet you'd get 80%+ back in resale if you hated it as well :thumb:

Have fun with it....


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## Mark J (May 10, 2007)

Bigpikle said:


> I'm no expert here, but have machined quite a few cars with a UDM and am now practicing with my first rotary.....here's my thoughts....
> 
> Get a G220 or similar and get some practice in. It will give you some results and tell you whether this is for you or not. It is something you will need to invest time and effort into, which isnt for everyone. Read the number of "I bought a G220/UDM and havent got the swirls out..." threads and see what I mean.
> 
> ...


Crackin' post :thumb:


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## Neil_M (Apr 5, 2007)

BIG BAVARIAN said:


> if you go down the rotary route practice on scrap panels,most newbies prefer to start on pc's / g220's which are easy to use and give good results,at the cost of time vs a rotary,the items you have listed i would steer clear of as not deemed suitable for your purpose(one is a sander,the orbit through will be too big,the other will have no cutting ability and bog down i,e press firmly and the machine grinds to a halt, the silverline will do the job,for the enthusiast detailer ,but won't stand 14 hour daily de-swirls/commercial use


Thanks mate.

I really am only an enthusiast so I dont really need the ability to do the 14 hour daily use you mention.

It does seem however that the silverline is the way to go for a budget rotary.



Bigpikle said:


> I'm no expert here, but have machined quite a few cars with a UDM and am now practicing with my first rotary.....here's my thoughts....
> 
> Get a G220 or similar and get some practice in. It will give you some results and tell you whether this is for you or not. It is something you will need to invest time and effort into, which isnt for everyone. Read the number of "I bought a G220/UDM and havent got the swirls out..." threads and see what I mean.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the honest answers mate.

My thoughts and research do tend to agree totally with what your saying. Its more that your talking quite a few quid for the G200 which in theory isnt as good as a rotary.

I would like to speed the polishing of the car, however I would like to have the facilty to correct the car properly in the future.

Its maybe worthwhile to get something like a G220 and run with it, see how i get on.

Ahh decisions decisions.

Im just wondering how a Silverline, with a megs Finishing pad and SRP at a low speed would work.


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## Russ and his BM (Jan 1, 2008)

I have a Silverline blue (didn't know about Orange ones when i bought mine, but mine has the soft-start feature that people say blue's don't come with - I might have an early version blue?) which I love.

Yes it's heavy and makes a lot of noise but hey, I don't do this for a living and so it won't wear out from overuse and I can live with it's faults given the price of a Makita/Metabo or something like a G220.

I did, however, splash out on a decent set of 3M products to go with it. I got them all from Brown Bros, but I gather they don't sell them anymore. He gave me a backing pad which has foam in it and is velcro. Also, 2 x 6" black buffing pads, made of foam, which look like a mini-egg carton shape. (The pro's will know the ones I mean - if anyone can help me out describing these, feel free - I'm a newbie!) You can get blue pads that are for finishing, but I haven't got these yet, I see no need, because the results are gleaming from the black pads. As for the compound itself, I have some fine compound and also some machine polish. That's 2 x 1 ltr bottles from a range of about 5. Again, the results are such that I have yet to need any of the other polishes etc. Besides, after going over the car twice, I'm normally reach my limit of interest, and have corrected all that I wish to.

As for being scared, well, it's not rocket science is it. Mind the edges of the panels, don't leave the pad spinning really fast over one spot for ages, if in doubt, stop and wipe to see what's happening. I haven't had any dramas yet, and I cracked on way before ever finding this site. Yes, I concede scrap panels would be a good idea to build knowledge in the kit, and your own confidence etc

In sum, you have my recommendation for what it's worth. Go for a good value machine, but don't skimp on the bits that actually touch and work the paint surface.

Seem fair enough?

Cheers, Russ


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## Christian6984 (Dec 20, 2007)

Im good with the my PC7424 aka G220/UDM, and think when i get round to rotary will help as i was wary of the PC @ first its a great machine, but havent tackled and VAG cars yet. A new car is predicted soon, unsure of what but if its the another renault or mini, i know the PC will be fine, but if i go for the Audi or Vw it may struggle. 

If i have the time in the summer after uni, i will get a rotary and PTG, and find a wing or banger of a car to practice on. It will be a long time before i would take to any car that matters. and only if the PC wasnt up to the job. 

Do rotary pads fit via velcro like the PC i.e. interchangeable

Neil, what car(s) do you have or are you going to be working on, its helpful to know, as for example renaults have soft paint that the G220 has no problem with correcting


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## Neil_M (Apr 5, 2007)

Guys really impressed with the helpful replies so far!!

Its a 2003 Fiesta, in Silver.

Russ I do fit in your shoes to a degree. As it would likely only be for my car.

As mentioned I would likely look for a non corrected finish (SRP) first of all and possibly once confidence and abilities increase, try something to correct the paint.


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## dazzo (Sep 13, 2007)

If your confident enough, and use only polishes like srp or even a good qd on a finishing pad for a bit of practice, get the silverline fella, either blue or orange.
I use a blue silverline and i have polished and corrected so many cars with it with no problems at all.
Yes its heavy, noisey and a bit agricultural but if you can get good results with one, then move onto a metabo at some point it will feel so easy and smooth running you'll ge rocking like a pro . . . . . maybe:thumb:


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## Neil_M (Apr 5, 2007)

LOL does that mean if im not rocking like a pro I can have words with you lol?

But thats my thoughts so far. To start with the rotary on very low speeds, to apply some basic products but not to attempt correction quite yet.

Anyone thoughts on that?


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## Bigpikle (May 21, 2007)

I see your point of view here, but also think 'not correcting' is something of a red herring. The issue isnt about the correcting IMHO, it is about a fast spinning pad generating lots of heat and the risk of marking plastics, trim etc.

SRP is still abrasive and poor technique will still cause you issues. The downside is you just wont get the results you are looking for after all your efforts. Why not use a decent quality low abrasive polish like Megs #80 that is lovely to use on the rotary, doesnt dry out instantly and dust like SRP, and will still give you some good results?

Using a rotary isnt rocket science as already said (listen to me after 3 hours practice :lol BUT the spin of the pad does mean the machine wants to drive itself over the panel and until you gt the hang of controlling it, the machine can literally fly all over the place extremely quickly - image a 6" pad spinning at 1750rpm and suddenly biting on 1 edge. A major part of the learning curve with these machines is getting skilled at being able to guide the machine exactly where you want it to go. Until you can do this, you risk putting swirls INTO the paint and marring the surface further as the spinning pad leaves marks of its own. The other thing is the heat that these machines generate. I have been amazed at how hot the panel gets just with a finishing pad an polish, and this is a risk with plastic panels in particular. If the plastic gets to o hot then the paint will bubble and thats the end of that....

I've been on mine for about 3 hours now and have a good degree of control. I am correcting swirls and marks to a reasonable degree using knowledge from many many hours using these polishes on other cars with the UDM, but I am still nowhere near where I need to be. I bet on my Audi, with typically hard paint, i wont be getting enough results, and I bet if I went back to the Honda I did a few weekends ago with uber soft paint, I would be struggling to leave a marr free finish like i was achieving on my UDM. Including the time I'll put in today, i could easily have corrected >50% of a Fiesta with my UDM. I did my dads nasty swirly/scratched Rover 75 estate in 2 long afternoons, after prep'ing etc..

If you are only doing your car, and a Fiesta is not that big or likely to have particularly hard paint, I would simply get a G220 (or a used PC/UDM if you want to save money) and get stuck in. I bet you could have it 90% corrected if it just has light swirls/scratches etc, in a couple of afternoon sessions. You'll only want to do it once a year with perhaps a few spots corrected a 2nd time if you get any marks. I cant see the value in investing the time to learn safe use of a rotary personally, as it just gives you a 2nd element to learn - rotary control AND correct polishing technique.

I'm not anti the rotary, as i just spent nearly £200 on machine, BP, pads etc etc  but i am just suggesting that for doing 1/2 cars then it is probably not the most time effective way to go about things. No way i would have bothered if i wasnt maintaining 10-15 cars pa.

Have fun either way though...


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## NN1 (Nov 11, 2006)

get the krauss polisher of ebay, its a good deal you get lots of pads for you to use to start out with, 3 different sized backing plates... you could always then invest in some better pads, and down the line if you feel it is necessary then get a better rotary like the makita, but what you got to remember is some of these cheaper polishers are exactly the same and most likely made in the same factory... the krauss looks just like the makita


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## Neil_M (Apr 5, 2007)

Bigpikle, get yourself an award for informative posts.

I see what you mean, the issue with the rotary is heat. Which of course is generated no matter what product/pad you use.

Why cant someone develop a good random orbital at a decent price. It would definately make the decision alot easier.


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## Bigpikle (May 21, 2007)

Neil_M said:


> Bigpikle, get yourself an award for informative posts.
> 
> I see what you mean, the issue with the rotary is heat. Which of course is generated no matter what product/pad you use.
> 
> Why cant someone develop a good random orbital at a decent price. It would definately make the decision alot easier.


Heat helps break the polishes down faster I guess, delivering some of the benefit of the machine. I was told by a couple of pros here that it doesnt really matter how hot metal panels get (within reason I guess) but painted plastic is very sensitive and can delaminate...

The Flex 3401 gets great press in the US as its a DA AND has some rotation like a rotary, although much less. It is supposed to correct much better than a PC/UDM/G220 but also be pretty safe. But at almost £300 here (or 300 uros in europe) it is not a cheap option....and has other limitations of course.....

I dont think you will go wrong with a G220 etc as they still are very capable and people produce amazing results with them - I am really pleased with what I achieved very quickly with my UDM and wouldnt be without it.


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## Neil_M (Apr 5, 2007)

Excellent mate, I will look up the G220 a bit more then. Really the basic package and 1 or two finishing pads should get me started.


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## Car Key (Mar 20, 2007)

As a novice, I've been looking at getting a buffer. Been doing my research and as far as a budget rotary goes, the £45 Kestral SIM180 seems the best buy. As recommended by Pro JamesB: http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=52298


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## DubbedUP (Oct 2, 2007)

After reading post's on here, I was really scared of using the rotary, even though I had bought one and a few accessories for it. So I bought a PC and to be honest as long as you are careful I find the rotary much more of a pleasure to use. You can cover larger area's quickly and in some cases (VAG Cars) get better results.

I only use the PC now for spot detail..


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## Bigpikle (May 21, 2007)

Car Key said:


> As a novice, I've been looking at getting a buffer. Been doing my research and as far as a budget rotary goes, the £45 Kestral SIM180 seems the best buy. As recommended by Pro JamesB: http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=52298


I was talking with James about these the other week at his meet. They look good and he rates them. The only issue I saw was that he said they dont have an electronic speed controller eg a controller that keeps the pad spinning at the same rate even when pressure is applied. Most people seem to rate this as essential, so the machine doesnt bog down under a load. That put me off getting one as one thing that really used to annoy me with the UDM was that once you put some pressure on it, the pad simply stops spinning. One advantage to me of the rotary is that it will keep spinning and doing the work, even under load, enabling you to use pressure to sort put more severe swirls etc.


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## Car Key (Mar 20, 2007)

Bigpikle said:


> I was talking with James about these the other week at his meet. They look good and he rates them. The only issue I saw was that he said they dont have an *electronic speed controller* eg a controller that keeps the pad spinning at the same rate even when pressure is applied.


Strange, I thought I read on here that it had got esc. James must know though.

*edit:* Found where I read it has esc:
http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=39622

It also states that in the blurb from where he bought it (see link above)

I also read James saying he prefered it to his Makita! (hope I'm not misquoting there)


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## Neil_M (Apr 5, 2007)

Thanks for the info Car Key.

Ill do a read up on them.


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## Affection to Detail (Jul 6, 2006)

Car Key said:


> Strange, I thought I read on here that it had got esc. James must know though.
> 
> *edit:* Found where I read it has esc:
> http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=39622
> ...


The old versions dont have the ESC. This was a revision for the new version.


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## Bigpikle (May 21, 2007)

good news :thumb:


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## Neil_M (Apr 5, 2007)

I presume with the Kestrel, grabbing a "5" Rotary backing plate" and some Megs pads and your in business?


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## robsonj (Apr 14, 2007)

I went straight to a rotary, didnt fancy buying something electrical off ebay so ended up paying £70 for a clarke rotary from Machine mart, I got some practice panels from the scrapyard and started practising, soon got the hang of it and now regard myself as reasonably proficient.
I have to say that I find using the clarke rotary quite tiring as its quite a bit heavier that a Megs220/udm , I often wonder if a metabo/makita would be lighter and easier to use(any pro's got an opinion on this????????????????????).
i must admit i like the speed with which a good finish is achievable with the rotary.


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## Neil_M (Apr 5, 2007)

Interesting comments mate.

Maybe the rotary is the way to go, grab some scrap panels as many have and practise on them.

What are the speed differences between the Kestrel and say the G220. The Kestrel ranges between 800-3000rpm any figures on the G220.


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## Bigpikle (May 21, 2007)

G220 cant be compared speed wise to a rotary, as it doesnt spin, but oscillates. Like comparing apples and oranges... RPM is the spinning speed for the rotary but DA's are measured in OPM....

A rotary is going to be MUCH more powerful, especially as it doesnt slow down when you apply pressure like a DA (PC/UDM/G220) does :thumb:


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## bloopeta (Jan 14, 2008)

Neil_M said:


> Interesting comments mate.
> 
> The Kestrel ranges between 800-3000rpm any figures on the G220.


anyone have any idea what speeds at what stages the kestrel runs??

1 800
2 ***
3 ***
4 ***
5 ***
6 3000

I emailed kestrel over a week ago to ask and they just havent bothered to reply at all.


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## Guest (Jun 4, 2008)

:buffer:I rate the krauss had mine a while now and has completed some extreamly long details 12 hours plus and never missed a beat,get some decent pads and give it wizz for £65.00 you carnt go wrong.
The makita is a fantastic bit of kit and i do have one but the krauss just keeps going and going.
some time us detailers like to look good i,m the first to admit i like new toys think alot on DW would agree thats why we buy the best kit like everything nowadays its status.
just think everybody has a opinion on different products.
some good some bad.


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## Neil_M (Apr 5, 2007)

Cheers for the reply jay.

Your quite right though, we do like are new toys!


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