# Business alarm system



## GJM (Jul 19, 2009)

Anyone know the general going rate for a basic grade II system installed to an office, not residential.

Had some pretty high quites, pricing in London appear to be cheaper for the same kit.

Honeywell seems to be the most commonly used and it was that had before.

Is it worth buying the kit yourself and getting a company to fit or have a bash myself, doubt there is much to it, understand makes sense to have approved company fit but so far my insurance aren't bothered about an alarm, thought they would have done.

If buy the kit myself, any recommendations?


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## Miglior (Feb 12, 2006)

There's no point fitting your alarm, you can buy a grade 2 kit, fit it yourself but it still won't be grade 2 until its installed by an SSAIB or NSI installer. 

Just had to have a grade 3 alarm put in mine, from a grade 2. Great system


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## richtsport (Jun 6, 2010)

where are you based?

any advice gimmie a shout, we are nsi gold.:thumb:


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## kings.. (Aug 28, 2007)

you only need ssaib or nacos if you want redcare response... if the insurance has requested redcare then you need accreditation, if not you can source a system yourself. If you are after a wireless I can recommend Visonic.. they have loads of features and built in speech diallers too.


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## DaveDesign (May 6, 2008)

If your going to have it installed for you then your best letting them supply and fit the equipment they are familiar with. Not even sure if there are too many companys that would fit equipment that wasnt their own.


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## Derbyshire-stig (Dec 22, 2010)

if its serviced by the correct alarm company most insurance companies dont ask who installed it I have found.


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## Shiny (Apr 23, 2007)

Just to clear up any insurance issues (although the op has said it is not an insurance requirement in his case), but there are different levels of requirement depending on the risk. 

The minimum requirement will be that an alarm is professionally installed and on an annual maintenance contract (NSI or Ssaib). This can be audible only or a dialler. 

For some risks, in addition to this, insurers may want confirmed technology, redcare, gsm, dualcomm etc, depending on the risk insured.


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## GJM (Jul 19, 2009)

Miglior said:


> There's no point fitting your alarm, you can buy a grade 2 kit, fit it yourself but it still won't be grade 2 until its installed by an SSAIB or NSI installer.
> 
> Just had to have a grade 3 alarm put in mine, from a grade 2. Great system


Understand regarding the installer, it's more just to have one anyway even though insurance have said not a requirement which I think is bizzare.

What kit did you go for and what was the damage


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## GJM (Jul 19, 2009)

richtsport said:


> where are you based?
> 
> any advice gimmie a shout, we are nsi gold.:thumb:


Way up North in Aberdeen, that's the problem, companies charge a premium for everything, I don't do premium prices, happy to pay for stuff but not get fleeced.

Example, o2 sensor for a RAV4 in Dingbro Aberdeen over £100, pick up the phone and call a branch 20 miles out of town and it's over £40 cheaper.

Would do the same with Alarms companies but they are all city based.


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## GJM (Jul 19, 2009)

kings.. said:


> you only need ssaib or nacos if you want redcare response... if the insurance has requested redcare then you need accreditation, if not you can source a system yourself. If you are after a wireless I can recommend Visonic.. they have loads of features and built in speech diallers too.


One company spoke to...who came out did a survey and never heard again....guessing it was because I asked them to move the CCTV kit too.

They didn't seem to rate Honeywell, seems to praise Scantronic, it's Honeywell kit had in the past and it does seem to be industry standard?


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## GJM (Jul 19, 2009)

DaveDesign said:


> If your going to have it installed for you then your best letting them supply and fit the equipment they are familiar with. Not even sure if there are too many companys that would fit equipment that wasnt their own.


Well it's the whole rip off factor, last place was being divided up and next door had a company out as I had the kit my side, but they insisted changing all the contacts, totally pointless in my eyes as they were working perfect.

Most seem to deal with the Honeywell kit have had quotes from, so would probably buy that, spoke to a company that seems happy to do install only.

Don't see the problem if it's brand new kit with receipts?


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## GJM (Jul 19, 2009)

Shiny said:


> Just to clear up any insurance issues (although the op has said it is not an insurance requirement in his case), but there are different levels of requirement depending on the risk.
> 
> The minimum requirement will be that an alarm is professionally installed and on an annual maintenance contract (NSI or Ssaib). This can be audible only or a dialler.
> 
> For some risks, in addition to this, insurers may want confirmed technology, redcare, gsm, dualcomm etc, depending on the risk insured.


One of the quotes was for police response, is this best way to go, think you need to have it serviced more (another money spinner)


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## GJM (Jul 19, 2009)

Seen this online and it seems to be a better panel etc than what the companies have proposed :

http://www.securitywarehouse.co.uk/catalog/honeywell-galaxy-220-wireless-starter-kit-p-1632.html

Guessing the wireless kit has it's limitations, just in future might want to cover a workshop out the back but it's around 150 yards from office


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## Techgeek (Jun 7, 2007)

You will only get police response if all the kit was supplied and fitted by an nsi or ssaib company to the latest regs with confirmed alarm signalling and a urn issued and the system serviced regularly and from the tone of your posts it sounds like your not happy to pay for professional service. You say you werent happy at a company swapping contacts on a takeover, when a new company does a takeover they should measure loop resistances and will change anything that is even slightly out, if they do a takeover and false alarm rates go above a certain threshold the police will suspend their ability to issue a urn and wont respond to their other sites they issued a urn for also and so ca put them out of business. If they look at a contact and cant immediately determine it is ungraded, grade 2 or grade 3 they will just change it out for one they can certify that does conform. why **** about over a 90 pence contact when you have to unscrew the thing anyway to check the loop resistances?
If your not after police response get a guy to fit a galaxy or pyronix enforcer or castle euro as a homer set up to text your moby on activation. The pyronix gear has the best sms dialler as it dials in every couple of weeks to check the tap sms server is still ok and picks another if it isn't.


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## GJM (Jul 19, 2009)

Techgeek said:


> You will only get police response if all the kit was supplied and fitted by an nsi or ssaib company to the latest regs with confirmed alarm signalling and a urn issued and the system serviced regularly and from the tone of your posts it sounds like your not happy to pay for professional service. You say you werent happy at a company swapping contacts on a takeover, when a new company does a takeover they should measure loop resistances and will change anything that is even slightly out, if they do a takeover and false alarm rates go above a certain threshold the police will suspend their ability to issue a urn and wont respond to their other sites they issued a urn for also and so ca put them out of business. If they look at a contact and cant immediately determine it is ungraded, grade 2 or grade 3 they will just change it out for one they can certify that does conform. why **** about over a 90 pence contact when you have to unscrew the thing anyway to check the loop resistances?
> If your not after police response get a guy to fit a galaxy or pyronix enforcer or castle euro as a homer set up to text your moby on activation. The pyronix gear has the best sms dialler as it dials in every couple of weeks to check the tap sms server is still ok and picks another if it isn't.


I'm more than happy to pay London prices but not Aberdeen prices, bloody oil tax!

£300 difference is quite a hike for the exact same kit proffesionally installed.

I'm pretty sure they never charged the company 90 pence for the contacts, it wasn't just the contacts, it was the whole lot, the kit was working fine.

They charged the company £1000 for the install, they are in oil related business and have money to burn, it's nothing fancy just double the London price.

Just googled Pyronix Enforcer, some amount of options, I'm lost in this kit, will try and check out the Pyronix, I'm thinking I would stick with honeywell as it's what used to and seems reliable enough.

I had to pay for pro service today, moved location so used a new test station.....needed blades...they were more expensive than the MOT!

Certainly the most expensive blades I have ever had to pay for


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## Techgeek (Jun 7, 2007)

yes, the galaxy is good kit too, and industry stand pretty much. The sms to your mobile function on the built in dialler is a bit hit and miss sometimes though, but its always good going to an arc, but then you'll pay a monthly fee for monitoring. 
If you want to get good in depth advice visit http://www.thesecurityinstaller.co.uk/community/ but going on about "the rip off factor" on there wont help and will probably result in not getting any free advice, there are overhead costs to every business and these have to be charged back to the customer or the guys get to go home. Some businesses have higher overheads than others that might not be immediately apparent or obvious or seem fair but if you dont like the quote, just don't buy, no point in complaining about it.
£300 between companies isn't all that surprising, theres "professional" installation and theres professional installation and sometime doing something properly and exactly to the regs and slinging something in quickly that works on the face of it but would fail an audit several times over it can take 3 times as long to do the job right.


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## GJM (Jul 19, 2009)

Understand what your saying but paying top dollar for stuff in Aberdeen is not due to the kit or company being better, simply oil tax which I don't do.....already have to pay that in rent!

I've no doubt the companies in other areas that are cheaper and any worse, probably better infact.

There is quite a mark up on the kit so prices like this seem reasonable

http://www.eaglesecuritysolutions.co.uk/burglar-alarms.php

£520 for the Galaxy kit, can live with that.

I asked one of the companies that came out about moving the CCTV, they tried to sell me a monitor with BNC's, seemed adament I needed one.

Is it not just a case of the BNC's going to the DVR and the DVR in turn being connected to the monitor by other means such was VGA etc?

So your advice would be move to the Pyronix if just mobile response but still with Galaxy if going to an arc?


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## Techgeek (Jun 7, 2007)

If your using tap sms the pyronix enforcer wireless or castle euro 46-sm is my recommendation but they are good to an arc too, the galaxy is more expandable, the pyronix is a fair few quid cheaper. go to alarm supplies or somewhere they have demo units set up to see what you prefer. The castle and euro include prox readers while the galaxy it costs extra. with the enforcer you can wire lights or something else to be remote controlled off your keyfob on the pgm output.

Dont use bnc to view the ouput of your dvr for your main output, the quality is crap, vga or hdmi all the way. to extend your vga monitor use a pair of vga to cat 5 converters and do it that way. bnc is only good for a secondary spot monitor.
I'm sorry I cant recommend anybody up aberdeen way, I've subbied out a few cctv jobs up there to different local companies up there one of them quite a large company and its bitten my **** as they were useless I had to go up and spend days making good now I get any quotes up there I give them a very inflated price because I dont want the business as I hate the drive and by the time you add on travel time and diesel it isn't worth it.


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## GJM (Jul 19, 2009)

Just got a call back from a company and they said better to use Risco.....another name to the hat!

Any views on the Risco kit, they didn't have great things to say about the Visonic kit, but were aware of the Enforcer and only heard good things about that


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## Techgeek (Jun 7, 2007)

risco is alright, but unless they have updated recently their wireless kit is a bit older, after a detector senses movement it goes to sleep for a few minutes to save battery power so the property can be unguarded immediately after setting the panel for a few minutes. the enforcer and galaxy use 2 way radio comms to put the detecors to sleep with the panel unset then wake up when the panel is set and trigger instantly.
Visonic is consumer grade diy kit. It costs exactly the same as the better IMO pyronix kit but the sensors arent that great. the door contacts are nice and small, the pyronix ones are huge.
I only use visonic when I get asked for something unusual like needing flood sensors in an empty property with no phone so i use the powermax express gsm.


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## GJM (Jul 19, 2009)

Techgeek said:


> risco is alright, but unless they have updated recently their wireless kit is a bit older, after a detector senses movement it goes to sleep for a few minutes to save battery power so the property can be unguarded immediately after setting the panel for a few minutes. the enforcer and galaxy use 2 way radio comms to put the detecors to sleep with the panel unset then wake up when the panel is set and trigger instantly.
> Visonic is consumer grade diy kit. It costs exactly the same as the better IMO pyronix kit but the sensors arent that great. the door contacts are nice and small, the pyronix ones are huge.
> I only use visonic when I get asked for something unusual like needing flood sensors in an empty property with no phone so i use the powermax express gsm.


Now they did mention that about detectors going to sleep for a few minutes, is that really a big issue, surely not?

Is the latest Risco ok and also set immediately, is there particular models should look for if so

I hate being OCD when it comes to choosing stuff like this that know nothing about


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## Techgeek (Jun 7, 2007)

I dont know, I haven't used risco stuff for ages.


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## GJM (Jul 19, 2009)

Got an new price back with a lot of gobbly-dee-**** that doesn't mean a lot to me.....

British Standards for Intruder Alarms PD6662:2004, DD243:2004 and to the standards of the SSAIB & UKAS 

The following System Design Proposal is for an intruder alarm system, which meets the requirements of PD6662:2004/DD243:2004 Grade 2B Env Class X

System seems to be Risco Wisdom end station with Risco Enviromental Class II low profile sounder, 1 x Face Fix Contact type MCT-302, 2 x Passive infra-red (PIR) detector type Next K9-85.

Sound ok for £650 installed? Not that much cheaper than the quote from one company who use the Honeywell Galaxy kit.

NSI and SSAIB just different bodies, much about the same I'm guessing or not?


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## Techgeek (Jun 7, 2007)

the part numbers for the contacts and pirs are visonic parts, I take it the risco panel uses visonic wireless peripherals now. I've had a higher percentage of faulty k9 visonics than almost any other pir.
If that is the case and you can get a similar priceI would go for the galaxy, honeywell backup and support is excellent and its the best of gear. I just favour the pyronix because of the aesthetics, the more reliable tap sms and the price lets you win tighter jobs.
SSAIB is just as good, just the SSAIB is far less expensive to be a member of.

PD6662:2004 and DD243:2004 have both been superseded DD243 has been replaced with BS8243 and if at anytime after june this year you decide to upgrade to signalling with police response your alarm will need to be compliant with PD6662:2010
it doesn't really matter though if your insurance dont mind and your bells only or just doing sms to a mobile.


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## GJM (Jul 19, 2009)

Techgeek said:


> PD6662:2004 and DD243:2004 have both been superseded DD243 has been replaced with BS8243 and if at anytime after june this year you decide to upgrade to signalling with police response your alarm will need to be compliant with PD6662:2010
> it doesn't really matter though if your insurance dont mind and your bells only or just doing sms to a mobile.


That's interesting as I did mention to the company that would maybe want to go down the police response route and they said it would not be a problem at all


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## GJM (Jul 19, 2009)

One of the other quotes I had doesn't seem to mention BS8243 or PD6662:2010 yet it was quoted for police response as the price mentioned inclusive of the monitoring and maintainence for the first year and about sending a cheque to the police for £40

What would you need to do to one of the systems that were not compliant when the time came and you wanted to use police responce.

Tried giving you a call today but just went to voicemail


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