# Help



## vtaylor78 (Feb 21, 2012)

Hello all,
I need some opinions on this case please.
Last year some old bloke decided he was going to put a key along the side of my car !! 
Luckily enough with some detective work and the aid of cctv, I caught the culprit and he admitted it and said he would pay.
I got a couple of quotes from Mercedes Benz approved body shops, one came in at £1450, the other £1475 so not much in it.
Anyway the work was completed in July "15", I was very happy with the repairs , and the old guy did pay me so all good.
Over this weekend I wanted to remove the lookie likey chrome strips that run three quarter of the way down the car, I'm de chroming it.
First side done no problem , hair drier , dentle floss and a bit of polish.
Now on to the side that has been painted 7months ago, this proved a lot more difficult!!.
Anyway what has happened is a couple of bits of paint have come off !.
I have been back to the body shop but the manager was unavailable, so no one else could make a decision.
My question is should this have happened?? Is it my fault ??.
Any thoughts / advise would be greatly received , before I go back to do battle tomorrow.
Thanks guys sorry for the long post.
Regards
Vince.


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## 3gdean (Jun 18, 2011)

photos would be helpful to the post.

Yes it would have happened, however no fault to you or the bodyshop.

Since the paint is still soft when the adhesive for the trim was applied. Can be a number of reasons behind the paint coming off i.e not having sufficient prep, solvent based adhesive, making a stronger bond to trim/weaker bond with the existing paint.

Its a difficult situation and unfortunately cannot off any real advice to legality.

Yes their paintwork will have a warranty, and being mercedes approved would think they would re-work.

I would go with the intention of full disclosure, not your fault, not my fault how can we resolve this, not going into battle, and while your there ask for a price on spraying the trims.


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## AllenF (Aug 20, 2012)

See one reason to leave the bloody badges and chromed on.
If you didn't like the car with them on why did you but it.



I'm off to paint my new toaster red for I don't like the chrome. ..


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## 3gdean (Jun 18, 2011)

with aerosol...

why has it bubbled with 200 degree heat :wave:


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## vtaylor78 (Feb 21, 2012)

AllenF said:


> See one reason to leave the bloody badges and chromed on.
> If you didn't like the car with them on why did you but it.
> 
> I'm off to paint my new toaster red for I don't like the chrome. ..


I like to be different :wave:


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## JCoxy (Dec 21, 2011)

Yeah as 3gdean said, the paint would of been soft when they re stuck it on so it really bonded onto the new paint. I remember I debadged my first car and had to wet sand the outlines to make it invisible

Stick trim back on or a repaint imo


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## squiggs (Oct 19, 2009)

I would say that it's no fault of the bodyshop that in trying to modifying your car you've damaged the repair.
Had you have left it alone, as the manufacturers intended and as the bodyshop would have expected, then all would be good.

I'm afraid to say that I think it's very short sighted of people to expect repairs to be as strong/stable as an original 'out of the factory finish'.


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## vtaylor78 (Feb 21, 2012)

squiggs said:


> I would say that it's no fault of the bodyshop that in trying to modifying your car you've damaged the repair.
> Had you have left it alone, as the manufacturers intended and as the bodyshop would have expected, then all would be good.
> 
> I'm afraid to say that I think it's very short sighted of people to expect repairs to be as strong/stable as an original 'out of the factory finish'.


But these body shops have to jump through hoops to obtain "Approved status" ??


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## squiggs (Oct 19, 2009)

vtaylor78 said:


> But these body shops have to jump through hoops to obtain "Approved status" ??


True - but it's much the same as an approved Dulux decorator uses only Dulux paint - but an independent decorator using a different product can still paint wall just as well, (except in both cases if you put a strip of sellotape on the wall and then pulled it off the chances are you'd pull the paint off  ).

So as opposed to J Bloggs independent bodyshop where he can make his own mind up as to what techniques and products he will use to make a repair, approved bodyshops have to repair using techniques and products that are approved.
But it's still just a repair carried out by humans - and it will never be as robust as the original finish which was applied by robots to a precise depth, to fresh clean unpainted bodywork, which was then dried at an exact temperature for a precise amount of time in a multi million pound factory.


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## vtaylor78 (Feb 21, 2012)

Just an update , I contacted MB and they confirm this should not have happened.
These trims are able to be removed and replaced as necessary.
If you got one damaged in say a supermarket car park, you can replace it.
You wouldn't expect to have to repaint to whole side of the car ?


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## squiggs (Oct 19, 2009)

Been thinking .....

If these strips are replaceable, and can be removed/replaced (even from a panel that has had an approved repair) then surely their removal/replacement should also only been done by an 'approved' technician.

I'm sure they are going to say you're not approved to remove strips and that your method/technique was to blame.
I think you could still have a battle on your hands ........ but I wish you luck :thumb:

I would also think it quite rare for an owner to ask for the strips to be removed without them being replaced.
Playing devils advocate - if an 'approved' technician had of removed it (to be replaced) and if a few paint chips came off, but then if they could of replaced the strip thus covering up the chips ...... would they have come clean and said the panel needs a respray?????? 
(I know there are a few 'ifs' in there )


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## vtaylor78 (Feb 21, 2012)

Further update...
Getting nowhere with the body shop, they are now refusing to even return my calls and I'm still to discuss with the owner.
This is a company that I have spent thousands of £,s with over 15 years !!.
I've gone back to the insurance company Avia, they are arranging an independent inspection of the work.
Watch this space.


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## JCoxy (Dec 21, 2011)

I'm surprised really you're taking it to this level, but to a degree I wish you luck, though I can't help but see you'll get anything out of it.


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## vtaylor78 (Feb 21, 2012)

JCoxy said:


> I'm surprised really you're taking it to this level, but to a degree I wish you luck, though I can't help but see you'll get anything out of it.


I don't give in easy, and believe I am right.
We will see what the Independent inspection throws up.


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## SamD (Oct 24, 2015)

I'm interested to see how this ends, keep us updated and good luck.


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## vtaylor78 (Feb 21, 2012)

SamD said:


> I'm interested to see how this ends, keep us updated and good luck.


No problem I will, I spoke to another very good body shop today, and they said No way this should have happened and to stand my ground.
In a sad sort of way looking forward to the experts opinion.


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## Graeme1 (Dec 9, 2006)

How many times have you ben into the body shop?


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## vtaylor78 (Feb 21, 2012)

Graeme1 said:


> How many times have you ben into the body shop?


What for this problem, or past jobs ?


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## Andyb0127 (Jan 16, 2011)

So basically you removed the trims yourself, but are blaming the bodyshop. You do realize there's an out gassing process for paint where the solvents evaporate and paint cures, and that this is fresh paint and fresh adhesive which means trims should be removed by someone that's knows how to. If we did the work to your car you came back and to us saying I've removed the trims and also the paint. The answer you would get is well sorry this is not our fault, you chose to try and remove them with no prior experience in doing this but your blaming us for your actions, yes we have a paint guarantee but this does not include customer doing things like this should have brought the car back and asked for us to do it. But as you had an idea your going to change these trims then really if you had thought about it it should have beenough done while car was being repaired. Plus car manufacturers saying there designed to be removed you do realize at the factory paint is dried via high bake where as a bodyshop dries paint via lowbake meaning curing process is longer. Personally I don't think you will get anywhere even with an independent assessment regardless of what other bodyshops say.


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## BaileyA3 (Jun 14, 2015)

I'm with the op on this one. If he feels confident he can remove the trims himself with good technique then why should he have to pay someone to do it for him? If the issue has been caused by the trim being stuck back on too soon after the repair then surely it's upto those at fault to rectify it. Plenty of people buy things and modify them, sometimes you can't buy things exactly as you want them. Good luck with this, hope you get it sorted.


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## Andyb0127 (Jan 16, 2011)

BaileyA3 said:


> I'm with the op on this one. If he feels confident he can remove the trims himself with good technique then why should he have to pay someone to do it for him? If the issue has been caused by the trim being stuck back on too soon after the repair then surely it's upto those at fault to rectify it. Plenty of people buy things and modify them, sometimes you can't buy things exactly as you want them. Good luck with this, hope you get it sorted.


Because there's a big difference between confidence and some one who knows what there doing and experience at doing it.


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## JCoxy (Dec 21, 2011)

I mean one time, while repairing my rear bumper on my 2005 Astra I wanted to cover the back end up from water (the rear lights were out too) and to my fault used ducktape to secure plastic sheeting on the roof

Taking the duck tape off the roof I also removed paint, Am I going to Vauxhall that the paint doesn't have good adhesion? no, It was my fault.. Just my two cents


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## AllenF (Aug 20, 2012)

The car was designed with these strips on.
You had the car painted they replacedthe stick trims that that model came with.. you change em and damage it that's your problem not the bodyshops. If you wanted differentvtrims you should have spoken up at the time as you didn't it's time to hold your piece.
Yes agreed the trims are available to buy. So is a cranium still but you wouldnt go drilling hokes in uour head would you


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## vtaylor78 (Feb 21, 2012)

AllenF said:


> The car was designed with these strips on.
> You had the car painted they replacedthe stick trims that that model came with.. you change em and damage it that's your problem not the bodyshops. If you wanted differentvtrims you should have spoken up at the time as you didn't it's time to hold your piece.
> Yes agreed the trims are available to buy. So is a cranium still but you wouldnt go drilling hokes in uour head would you


These trims can be removed with no worry of damaging the paint finish, that's the whole argument !


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## vtaylor78 (Feb 21, 2012)

Andyb0127 said:


> So basically you removed the trims yourself, but are blaming the bodyshop. You do realize there's an out gassing process for paint where the solvents evaporate and paint cures, and that this is fresh paint and fresh adhesive which means trims should be removed by someone that's knows how to. If we did the work to your car you came back and to us saying I've removed the trims and also the paint. The answer you would get is well sorry this is not our fault, you chose to try and remove them with no prior experience in doing this but your blaming us for your actions, yes we have a paint guarantee but this does not include customer doing things like this should have brought the car back and asked for us to do it. But as you had an idea your going to change these trims then really if you had thought about it it should have beenough done while car was being repaired. Plus car manufacturers saying there designed to be removed you do realize at the factory paint is dried via high bake where as a bodyshop dries paint via lowbake meaning curing process is longer. Personally I don't think you will get anywhere even with an independent assessment regardless of what other bodyshops say.


I have de badged the whole car with no other issues.
So I do know know to undertake this work.


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## AllenF (Aug 20, 2012)

They CAN be removed yes by using the correct tooling and methods.
As I keep saying why did you try and undertake the work. If it was going into bodyshop why not get them to do it whilst they were about it .
Probably making the job cheaper and easier for them.


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## vtaylor78 (Feb 21, 2012)

AllenF said:


> They CAN be removed yes by using the correct tooling and methods.
> As I keep saying why did you try and undertake the work. If it was going into bodyshop why not get them to do it whilst they were about it .
> Probably making the job cheaper and easier for them.


I don't think you have read this thread or understood it ?.
The work was done back in June '15', I have only just removed the trims because they were damaged.


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## Graeme1 (Dec 9, 2006)

vtaylor78 said:


> What for this problem, or past jobs ?


For this problem


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## vtaylor78 (Feb 21, 2012)

Graeme1 said:


> For this problem


Only the once in person.
But 3 phone calls and an email , the owner just ignores me.
The last job I gave him came to £10500 !!, so I am upset the way he is treating me.


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## Graeme1 (Dec 9, 2006)

vtaylor78 said:


> Only the once in person.
> But 3 phone calls and an email , the owner just ignores me.
> The last job I gave him came to £10500 !!, so I am upset the way he is treating me.


Ok. The reason I ask is that I have been in the trade about 15 years as various roles. As staff and management and always when the customer came in it got dealt with a lot quicker. Go in, be polite and it will go a lot more your way. And good luck. Personally if it was me and you came back to i would get it booked in. Wouldn't take a lot tbh b


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## vtaylor78 (Feb 21, 2012)

Graeme1 said:


> Ok. The reason I ask is that I have been in the trade about 15 years as various roles. As staff and management and always when the customer came in it got dealt with a lot quicker. Go in, be polite and it will go a lot more your way. And good luck. Personally if it was me and you came back to i would get it booked in. Wouldn't take a lot tbh b


I don't think I could be polite with him any more.
I can't believe the man will not even speak to me, as previously said I've spent a lot of money with him and recommend his business.
I think he thought by ignoring me I would just disappear, sadly he is very wrong.


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## JCoxy (Dec 21, 2011)

Can you post pictures on here when you get a chance?


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## vtaylor78 (Feb 21, 2012)

JCoxy said:


> Can you post pictures on here when you get a chance?


No problem I'll have a go tomorrow, I have touched them in but you should still be able to see.


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## Graeme1 (Dec 9, 2006)

Bit your tongue and try. Also I would go about touching it up if you want them to sort it.


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## vtaylor78 (Feb 21, 2012)

Graeme1 said:


> Bit your tongue and try. Also I would go about touching it up if you want them to sort it.


??????


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## squiggs (Oct 19, 2009)

Andyb0127 said:


> So basically you removed the trims yourself, but are blaming the bodyshop. You do realize there's an out gassing process for paint where the solvents evaporate and paint cures, and that this is fresh paint and fresh adhesive which means trims should be removed by someone that's knows how to. If we did the work to your car you came back and to us saying I've removed the trims and also the paint. The answer you would get is well sorry this is not our fault, you chose to try and remove them with no prior experience in doing this but your blaming us for your actions, yes we have a paint guarantee but this does not include customer doing things like this should have brought the car back and asked for us to do it. But as you had an idea your going to change these trims then really if you had thought about it it should have beenough done while car was being repaired. Plus car manufacturers saying there designed to be removed you do realize at the factory paint is dried via high bake where as a bodyshop dries paint via lowbake meaning curing process is longer. Personally I don't think you will get anywhere even with an independent assessment regardless of what other bodyshops say.





vtaylor78 said:


> I have de badged the whole car with no other issues.
> So I do know know to undertake this work.


Unfortunately the OP seems to only be able remove trim from original paint.

Repaired paint will never be the same as original.
So the same DIY procedures that may have worked on original paintwork won't (and obviously) doesn't work on repaired paintwork.

But the OP didn't know that - but that's no fault of the repair.


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## vtaylor78 (Feb 21, 2012)

squiggs said:


> Unfortunately the OP seems to only be able remove trim from original paint.
> 
> Repaired paint will never be the same as original.
> So the same DIY procedures that may have worked on original paintwork won't (and obviously) doesn't work on repaired paintwork.
> ...


Good post.
But if you pay top money to an " Approved Mercedes Benz" repairer you expect the best possible result.
If I had gone to a back street garage I could have got the job done for £700, and I would have then excepted what has happened.
I still think if the job was done to the book this should not have happened.
I'm convinced the trims were fitted Before the paint was ready to take them.
Thinking back now the body shop was very busy at the time and I had to wait 3 weeks to get booked in, also the owner was on holiday.
So this makes me come to the conclusion corners were cut.


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## Graeme1 (Dec 9, 2006)

vtaylor78 said:


> ??????


Sorry meant wouldn't try touch it up.


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## Graeme1 (Dec 9, 2006)

vtaylor78 said:


> Good post.
> But if you pay top money to an " Approved Mercedes Benz" repairer you expect the best possible result.
> If I had gone to a back street garage I could have got the job done for £700, and I would have then excepted what has happened.
> I still think if the job was done to the book this should not have happened.
> ...


You would've waited about a week to get them fitted if they waited till the paint was rock hard. Not a viable option for body shops.

Also approval doesn't mean **** tbh. All that you need to get approval is to be with the right companies and tick the right boxes for equipment you have etc.

When is the independent inspection coming out? Also it won't necessary mean the body shop take any notice of it.

What are Aviva saying about it?


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## Andyb0127 (Jan 16, 2011)

So your now saying corners have been cut cars been rushed and you accept no responsibility for your actions, it's all down to the bodyshop for poor prep work. As said why did you not call into the bodyshop prior to trying to remove the trims and ask for advice about removing them and if it will affect new paint. Perhaps a valuable lesson has been learnt always ask before trying to do it yourself as experience will always triumph over confidence and thinking you can do it.


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## vtaylor78 (Feb 21, 2012)

Avia are organising the inspection and said they will contact me in about a week.
I touched the chips in only to prevent further damage.
I just took a couple of photos on my I pad, but can't seem to load them on ?


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## Graeme1 (Dec 9, 2006)

Ok. I just want to get it straight. It a full insurance job?

Just in the first post you talk about getting the "old guy" to pay you?


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## vtaylor78 (Feb 21, 2012)

Andyb0127 said:


> So your now saying corners have been cut cars been rushed and you accept no responsibility for your actions, it's all down to the bodyshop for poor prep work. As said why did you not call into the bodyshop prior to trying to remove the trims and ask for advice about removing them and if it will affect new paint. Perhaps a valuable lesson has been learnt always ask before trying to do it yourself as experience will always triumph over confidence and thinking you can do it.


As previously said I am perfectly capable of doing the job , as there is not a problem with any other part of the car.


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## JCoxy (Dec 21, 2011)

As bad as it sounds, corners are cut at body shops, more than others, And of course the trims would have been stuck on as soon as refitting, which could of been the same day.

I have to fit up trims and panels as soon as they're out of bake, and the clear is still soft, that's the joy of a high flow body shop

A Mercedes approved bodyshop will be like any other, but only gain that recognition because they have to use certain products and paint systems, everything else is would be done the same as a non merc shop.

I think somebody posted above along the lines of, It's human repair and refinish, which was done by robots, I'm sure the painter who done the repair work had some dirt in your paint or other minor issues when painting, most can be rectified after, which you may not know about


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## vtaylor78 (Feb 21, 2012)

Graeme1 said:


> Ok. I just want to get it straight. It a full insurance job?
> 
> Just in the first post you talk about getting the "old guy" to pay you?


The old guy responsible for scratching it did pay me, but I decided to put it through my insurance.
I'm glad I did now otherwise I'd have to pay for the inspection.


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## squiggs (Oct 19, 2009)

vtaylor78 said:


> Good post.
> But if you pay top money to an " Approved Mercedes Benz" repairer you expect the best possible result.
> If I had gone to a back street garage I could have got the job done for £700, and I would have then excepted what has happened.
> I still think if the job was done to the book this should not have happened.
> ...


I've just had to have a new tailgate fitted to my van - it's a van for business and as such has vinyl graphics applied.
I know if I want to remove the vinyl at a later date with minimum damage to the paint I should leave the paint to harden.
With this in mind I am running my van for 2 months before getting the graphics reapplied.

It's a similar sort of thing to the trims on your car.

If they had stuck the new trim on once the paint was fully hardened (two months later) you may not have had the problem.
But bodyshops, (approved or independent) simply don't work like that.
They spray the car, bake it, let it cool, polish it and stick the trims on.
The glue on the trims applied to paint that is still 'gassing off' (hardening) produces a stronger bond than trims applied to original paintwork (see Andys post explaining the difference between a bodyshop oven and a factory oven).

Had you taken your car back to the bodyshop and asked them to remove the trim on the repaired panel they would probably have warned you that it could cause damage.
Had you decided to let them go ahead and remove the trim they would have used a different technique to that of removing trim on original paint. 
Knowing that a repair will never be as robust as original paint they would probably have put the car in an oven on a full bake cycle to get the panel and trim as warm as possible to soften the glue as much as possible before attempting to remove it.

A repair carried out by humans can't compete with robots in a multi million pound factory and the processes they use - so the statement that the trims are removable may be true - but that statement could only ever be "fact" when referring to trim removal from original paint.
And finally you didn't have the correct equipment (an oven) when making your attempt of a DIY removal.

In short I still say (as many others do) it was no fault of the repair.


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## Guest (Jan 31, 2016)

Having read through this Im a bit confused,could someone please explain.
Are we saying that new cars..after paint,are left in the factory for a length of time to allow the paint to fully harden before stick on trims etc are fitted?
Hence the OP was able to remove the trims from the factory paint but not the "repaired" paint.
Do paint manufacturers state a "completely dry" time?
Spies Hecker and others state drying times,including "through dry"...
DRY TIMES
AIR DRYING
Drying time at 68°F/20°C:
Dust free: 15 to 20 minutes
Dry for assembly: 3 to 4 hours
Dry through: 12 hours
LOW BAKE
Flash-off time: No flash-off before bake necessary
Drying time at 140°F/60°C metal temp.: 15 minutes
INFRARED DRYING
Flash-off time: 0-5 minutes
1. Short wave: Approximately 10-15 minutes
2. Medium wave: Approximately 10-15 minutes


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## JCoxy (Dec 21, 2011)

I'm curious to know what the time frame is between paint and fitting up in a factory is too

squiggs is bang on, The whole aim in refinishing is to replicate the factory result as close as humanly possible, As above 3 - 4 hours fitment time can be too long for some bodyshops, they will stick trims on as soon as the vehicle has cooled down. It's the part of the job I hate because you can still put a fingerprint in the lacquer at times, it's that soft.


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## Andyb0127 (Jan 16, 2011)

Car in the factory will all be done by robot, but big difference is that they will high bake there paintwhich should average around 120 microns from e-coat through to base and clear. Then will be force dried at around if I recall correctly it's 120 degrees for about twenty five mins so paint will be fully cured very quick. Where as a bodyshop are low bake which mostly averages 60 degree bake for half hour but also needs to be taken into consideration that the 60 degrees is panel temperature not temp inside booth. You need to work out how long your booth takes to get up temp so if five mins then set at thirty five then you will get full half hour bake. Then work out what temp needs to be set at for correct panel temp which would almost certainly be higher than sixty degrees. As with these true hs clears it's got to be set right for it to cure but you also still have to take into consideration that there's an out gassing process for paint to fully cure this is when solvents finish releasing.


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## Andyb0127 (Jan 16, 2011)




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## vtaylor78 (Feb 21, 2012)

Andyb0127 said:


>


That's amazing!! Thanks.


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## vtaylor78 (Feb 21, 2012)

The insurance assessor from Avia has visited today.
He took some photos and inspected the vehicle.
He told me he has 30 years body shop experience!.
I asked him what he thought, and he said he agreed with me and this should not have happened, and I will be putting words to that effect in my report.
So I guess I've been proved right on this one (I thought so).
I await the assessor's report and decide what to do next.


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## squiggs (Oct 19, 2009)

If it works out in your favour - on the day that it's all finalised please tell me what numbers you're picking for the lottery :thumb:


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## vtaylor78 (Feb 21, 2012)

squiggs said:


> If it works out in your favour - on the day that it's all finalised please tell me what numbers you're picking for the lottery :thumb:


Why wouldn't it ? the guy has 30 years body shop experience , so he is best to judge.


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## MB-BTurbo (Nov 27, 2011)

The main thing is the insurance company is ultimately accountable as you claimed through them. As they are in agreement with you I would let them fight your battle.


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## squiggs (Oct 19, 2009)

I'm not saying it won't  
But given that on here (where you asked for help), where you've had advice/help/comments from quite a few experienced guys (with, at a guess 150 years collective experience) with most (including myself) suggesting a negative out-come - and if you (going against the collective thought) still manage to get it sorted foc - then you must be one hellava lucky fella :thumb:

So if you get it sorted I'd (pretty please) like to share some of your luck by knowing what lottery numbers you're picking


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## vtaylor78 (Feb 21, 2012)

Thank you all for your comments/ knowledge and experience.
That's the beauty of this forum, and I've learnt so much since joining it.
One thing I will say on this and I'd like your thoughts, is the insurance company.
Most people when their insurance is due go on a comparison site and try and get the cheapest deal.
Sometimes with a company they have never heard of, I think this is a false economy.
This case surly proves that, Avia are a long standing well established company, they have looked after me and the thing is I'm not insured with them this year.
So it doesn't always pay to go for the cheapest, you only know how good they are when you have an issue.
Thanks again all.


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## squiggs (Oct 19, 2009)

With any type of insurance ..... the cheaper it is - the more 'get out clauses' there are hidden away somewhere in the small print.


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