# Hydrophobic V Hydrophilic



## Goodfella36 (Jul 21, 2009)

I just want peoples thoughts on Hydrophobic V Hydrophilic debate would you buy a product that fully sheeted the water of or would beads always win for you.

Benefits being as we know hydrophobic can leave watermarks and round dirt spots etc on car

Super Hydrophilic while sheeting the water should leave less water spotting and take the dirt with it.

Here is a video of hydrophobic v hydrophilic this is not Super hydrophilic as very early version so expect faster more full sheeting.

which would you buy.


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## IndepthCarDetailing (Feb 12, 2012)

Good Evening Goodfella36, just been watching your 2 vids, in the first vid i like the drivers side.
water beads win for me , and i think always will , i'm just so used to it, i just love it.
water sheeting hmmm not so sure.


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## S63 (Jan 5, 2007)

For me sheeting is more beneficial, it stands to reason surely?
Beading is for the detailing romantics, nought wrong with that.


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## Yellow Dave (Apr 5, 2011)

With doing a lot of miles for work, when driving in wet conditions or rain, an LSP that beads more than sheets clears quicker whilst driving and helping remove road grime before it starts to bond


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## stangalang (Nov 27, 2009)

You know my thoughts. Hydrophilic for paint, phobic for glass

I know we all love beading, nothing wrong with that, and I know philic is underwhelming in the rain, but on a black car water spotting is unsitely


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## SadlyDistracted (Jan 18, 2013)

Hmm, hydrophillic when stationary (no spotting) and hydrophobic (good clearing) when driving, best of both words.
:doublesho
Beading is nice to see - as looks polished & protected, 
Sheeting for staying clean !

Now what is this product......?


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## Goodfella36 (Jul 21, 2009)

Product is very very early in development stages don't think it would be out for a good while yet if at all as if the numbers don't add up i cant see it being released. its just something i personally see a benefit to but it would have to sheet fast and even.


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## SadlyDistracted (Jan 18, 2013)

Goodfella36 said:


> Product is very very early in development stages don't think it would be out for a good while yet if at all as if the numbers don't add up i cant see it being released. its just something i personally see a benefit to but it would have to sheet fast and even.


Ageed on deliverables, I've got £20 ready and waiting :lol:


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## ronwash (Mar 26, 2011)

I dont know about you guys,but i like to remain as less as possible water on the paint after a wash..less work for the drying stage.


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## Blackmondie (Mar 13, 2011)

sheeting all the way. people often take beading as protection, so are afraid if there are no beads, but having less chance on waterspots, I'll have the sheeting


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## Guru (Aug 28, 2013)

I may be totally wrong here, but hydrophilic does not necessarily mean that it sheets water well - what it means is that the water clings to the surface and forms a sheet over it. That sheet may or may not clear off totally.


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## toni (Oct 30, 2005)

Yellow Dave said:


> With doing a lot of miles for work, when driving in wet conditions or rain, an LSP that beads more than sheets clears quicker whilst driving and helping remove road grime before it starts to bond


That's how I see it too :thumb:


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## stangalang (Nov 27, 2009)

Guru said:


> I may be totally wrong here, but hydrophilic does not necessarily mean that it sheets water well - what it means is that the water clings to the surface and forms a sheet over it. That sheet may or may not clear off totally.


That's very true. By definition it means a bead of water will infinitely spread over a panel. But I think for detailing application it will always mean a low beading, fast sheeting coat. I guess it has to be defined somehow.

Great point though and in total agreeance


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## Kotsos (May 7, 2011)

When people are investing for a coat first thing have in mind is low maintance and long term protection thats why i would choose for a hydrophilic coat. Less water stains and less swirls added during drying stage so why should choose something different? 

As mentioned above beading is a nice sing but IMO is only good for cool pics


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## adjones (Apr 24, 2013)

Guru said:


> I may be totally wrong here, but hydrophilic does not necessarily mean that it sheets water well - what it means is that the water clings to the surface and forms a sheet over it. That sheet may or may not clear off totally.


Yeah. Most times people talk about sheeting, it is hydrophobic. Hydrophillic is what you see when a car is dirty. Water doesn't run off, it sticks and dries but without spots.


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## -Raven- (Aug 26, 2010)

Very cool videos Lee! 

Thinking about it, to be honest I think that hydrophilic coating would annoy me. I like sheeting the water off the car to dry it, that looks way too slow!  

Can't wait to test it out for myself though!


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## Audriulis (Dec 17, 2009)

Sheeting is a bit slow atm, but it does make sence, if they will improve sheeting its worth a try


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## organisys (Jan 3, 2012)

Audriulis said:


> Sheeting is a bit slow atm, but it does make sence, if they will improve sheeting its worth a try


Basically this. If the performance can match what can be achieved with a 'phobic coating then the benefits should be obvious to see in terms of keeping the car cleaner.


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## piston_warrior (Jul 25, 2012)

I don't know about anyone else but sometimes when I apply an LSP it will be hydrophobic and bead beautifully for a few weeks and then turn into a sheeter. So the best of both worlds.


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## Aikinoodle007 (Jan 22, 2013)

From a technical perspective: sheeting all the way (for protection purposes). 
From an aesthetic and emotional perspective: beading, just because it looks awesome


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## Flakey (May 5, 2013)

What are typical waxes & sealants (Collinites for example) - Hydrophobic or Hydrophilic?


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## adjones (Apr 24, 2013)

matthewt23 said:


> I don't know about anyone else but sometimes when I apply an LSP it will be hydrophobic and bead beautifully for a few weeks and then turn into a sheeter. So the best of both worlds.


The water runs off in a sheet, the surface is dry after. Hydrophillic surface the water spreads and stick. How is so many people confused on this?


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## AaronGTi (Nov 2, 2010)

For me I love hydrophobic but I would consider hydrophillic if the sheeting speed increased dramatically and was even :thumb:


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## james_death (Aug 9, 2010)

I love sheeting its really the best way to go, but the speed of that sheeting is terrible to be honest.

Speed not such an issue if stationary and its sheeting the dirt with it.

However if the dirt is penetrating the surface layer of water with force of impact and water displacement its going to compact on itself and continually reduce the sheeting speed.

The speed of sheeting in the video would for me be terrible for driving as your speed is going to cause harder impacts and as i say the speed is not fast enough to carry the dirt away.

I would imagine the dirt overwhelming the sheeting as its so slow.

I love sheeting and wish all sheeted and fast.

I want sheeting but it has to be swift.

Now before i started do the vids to show sheeting the thing that stood out to me when i did the demon shine and the turtle wax test is yes the turtle wax whatever it was called, did sheet and was faster than in your video. 

However in warm weather i could see it drying or going patchy faster than it could sheet.

Thats where the demon shine was a clear winner and so what if it left something behind that only washes off anyway the fact that throwing water containing demon shine would make water fly off the car and only spots left from the splashes that are easy to dab off.

The speed was king, as such despite the sheeting been more desirable the beading would win it at the minute as its encapsulating a lot of the dirt in that sphere that when moving clears super fast so less dirt build up.

Problem arrises when static and as we all know dries leaving whatever it brought down with it still sitting on the vehicle.


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## Goodfella36 (Jul 21, 2009)

Good to see peoples opinions on this poll is closer then i thought it would be

As said this was a first version so way to slow sheeting but they are working on it far as I am aware ill get picture of bonnet shortly to see which has most dirt build up just out of interest.

But the other side is very hydrophobic so soon as I get above 30 mph that side is fully dry.



matthewt23 said:


> I don't know about anyone else but sometimes when I apply an LSP it will be hydrophobic and bead beautifully for a few weeks and then turn into a sheeter. So the best of both worlds.


I was actually talking to a chemist today about this subject so another thought provoking question to DW

If a wax is beading very well then all of a sudden magically turns in to a sheeter does this really mean that the oils are no longer risining to the surface and the wax is actually starting to fail or is there another reason. :thumb:


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## suspal (Dec 29, 2011)

I sitting on the fence on this one lee interesting though


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## james_death (Aug 9, 2010)

Goodfella36 said:


> Good to see peoples opinions on this poll is closer then i thought it would be
> 
> As said this was a first version so way to slow sheeting but they are working on it far as I am aware ill get picture of bonnet shortly to see which has most dirt build up just out of interest.
> 
> ...


Is this your homework?

Are you asking us to give you the test answers...:lol:

The answer is........ Alchemy....


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## Goodfella36 (Jul 21, 2009)

james_death said:


> Is this your homework?
> 
> Are you asking us to give you the test answers...:lol:
> 
> The answer is........ Alchemy....


Haha you know what I was like with the chemist at the autosmart meet few years ago poor man got so many questions i just like hearing everyone's thought best way of gathering much information as possible take all the testing I did on the ceramic coatings learnt so much and personally even though these coatings say they will last 2-3 years not much really gets talked about after-care of them or how to keep them at there best so that was all tested think I just like learning always something new in detailing yet still some of the old school products are the best in some areas.


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## james_death (Aug 9, 2010)

Ok ill do the QI answer that gets the blaring Buzzer...:lol:

You can get beading with clean paint so if the beads you have from your waxing session are smaller and tighter than on a bare panel then you clearly see the wax has added a more hydrophobic coating/layer if you will.

Now these beads get bigger and flatter or even simply sheet, your wax is dropping back.

Its there, as the beads are not what you know from a bare panel performance but not as tight as the start after the wax application.

I ran a test on a neighbours car and one of our own on some wax products i had for testing.

Ours was washed every week but theres was only washed 3 times after about 3 weeks and another at about 2 months the last wash a week later had the coating gone.

The regular wash had the wax failing after a month well it was a spray sealant actually but i digress.

However the neighbours was fine after 2 Months and still going until the 3rd wash.

The abrasion of washing will reduce the protection but also the environment contamination will do the same also.

The car still beads but on bare paint now.


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## Goodfella36 (Jul 21, 2009)

james_death said:


> Ok ill do the QI answer that gets the blaring Buzzer...:lol:
> 
> You can get beading with clean paint so if the beads you have from your waxing session are smaller and tighter than on a bare panel then you clearly see the wax has added a more hydrophobic coating/layer if you will.
> 
> ...


so as yours was being washed more the oils were not rising to the surface as being removed from the surfactants in the shampoo.

its got you thinking though James its true less a car is washed the better in some respects unless you are using a wash and wax shampoo or a quick detailer then as some think there wax is still going 9 months later.

i think my best buy has to be a Di water filter forget spending hundreds on a wax less you touch your car less swirls you will get

what about dark cars in middle of summer where there bodywork gets very hot how does this effect a wax would it not be better using a sealant in summer and wax in winter.


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## Lowiepete (Mar 29, 2009)

OK, let me play devil's advocate here... Does the difference really matter?

Surely, we apply potions to the paint, be they wax, sealant or new fangled 
coating, for one main purpose: surface protection; oh OK, two purposes, 
protection and looks. Personally, I could not give two hoots about water 
behaviour.

Beading is simply not the measure of anything, other than the size of the
smile on your face when you witness it. There is, presumably, a satisfaction.
I quite like the pretty patterns, I must admit.

How a surface behaves during or after rain is immaterial. Although, that might 
be key in areas of the UK where it knows how to rain. What matters to me is 
that the surface can be easily cleaned once I set to. Anyone who has read
through my posts in the Disabled Detailing thread will know that I'm a huge
advocate of the gentle approach to almost every aspect of detailing, washing
included.

My car is living proof that you don't need to attack the paint with a power
washer, or soak it in foam, let alone the waste of water that is the 2BM. It
has only experienced that once in its life, and it wasn't me doing it  

Whether I use a mitt in winter or just an MF cloth the rest of the year, all I 
want is the dirt not to be sticking to the paint for dear life, making the wash
process harder than it need be. Gentle wash methods will obviously have less
impact on the LSP.

Which of these surfaces will fulfil that ambition. I'm told that the hydrophylic
surface cannot be quite as smooth as the hydrophobic because that would
interfere with the sheeting properties. Does this make it inherently difficult
to maintain in terms of longevity, if by washing it, it's more likely to get 
abraded away by drying?

When it comes to looks, I much prefer the deep, wet look over the more
sterile finishes. Which of these potion types gives the better depth? Of
course, always remembering that the observed "depth" is simply a magic trick.

Most of the damage that is done to the paint is done at the drying stages
of a wash. Despite widespread use, so few people actually understand the
principles of microfibre technology and the potential for damage and static 
build-up that dry MF cloths cause. In view of this, which of the coatings will 
better resist that kind of abrasion?

In essence, what I'm asking is whether these choices divert attention away
from what I see as the key objectives: protection and looks.

With Season's Greetings,
Steve


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## SadlyDistracted (Jan 18, 2013)

Hmm how come hydrophobic (lotus effect) plants dont seem to suffer from spotting ?


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## james_death (Aug 9, 2010)

SadlyDistracted said:


> Hmm how come hydrophobic (lotus effect) plants dont seem to suffer from spotting ?


They dont have black paint?

They flex to shed the water?

They Drink it?

We simply dont pay enough attention to see it... Shrug....


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## Guru (Aug 28, 2013)

Plant surface is nothing like paint surface. Hydrophobic nature of plants like lotus is due to the microscopic protrusions (lumps) on the surface which in turn are covered with natural wax crystals. Here's a pictoriaal representation of what happens there -










Image courtesy - thenakedscientists.com


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## SadlyDistracted (Jan 18, 2013)

Guru said:


> Plant surface is nothing like paint surface. Hydrophobic nature of plants like lotus is due to the microscopic protrusions (lumps) on the surface which in turn are covered with natural wax crystals. Here's a pictoriaal representation of what happens there -
> 
> 
> 
> ...


*Wow* guru - brilliant explanation ! When can you do my car :lol:


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## Guru (Aug 28, 2013)

Bring it to India.


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## adjones (Apr 24, 2013)

Guru said:


> Plant surface is nothing like paint surface. Hydrophobic nature of plants like lotus is due to the microscopic protrusions (lumps) on the surface which in turn are covered with natural wax crystals. Here's a pictoriaal representation of what happens there -
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Not to spoil the fun but that picture works to explain nano particle coatings. Nano coatings on paint are not smooth.


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## Yellow Dave (Apr 5, 2011)

The more I think about this the less either really matters other than personally preference to the visual aspect.

Driving in rain today in a dirty car, the bonnet was still beading albeit very poorly. 40mph plus the beads would run off the car taken any unbonded dirt with it. Never Saw it sheet once regardless of speed. Z2 I thought was supposed to have pretty decent sheeting abilities?

On really dirty panels like lower doors and bootlid, no water behaviour at all, no run off of any kind. So what does it matter if a LSP beads or sheets. When it gets passed a certain point of being dirty it makes no odds.

On a clean panel and hose, it's lovely to see strong beading or sheeting properties. but how well will your chosen LSP bead or sheet in the rain? how well again once a fine film of dirt starts to build up?

Those that say sheeting keeps a car cleaner, I'm struggling to see how either has any effect at all.


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## djgregory (Apr 2, 2013)

Lowiepete said:


> OK, let me play devil's advocate here... *Does the difference really matter?*
> 
> Surely, we apply potions to the paint, be they wax, sealant or new fangled
> coating, for one main purpose: surface protection; oh OK, two purposes,
> ...


Do you think about your questions before posting?

Of course it matters, yes it may be personal preference as to what people want but it does matter.....

Why did you choose the car you have? personal preferance maybe?


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## jonny finger (Oct 19, 2013)

just love beading you know your cars protected


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## james_death (Aug 9, 2010)

Yellow Dave said:


> The more I think about this the less either really matters other than personally preference to the visual aspect.
> 
> On a clean panel and hose, it's lovely to see strong beading or sheeting properties. but how well will your chosen LSP bead or sheet in the rain? how well again once a fine film of dirt starts to build up?
> 
> Those that say sheeting keeps a car cleaner, I'm struggling to see how either has any effect at all.


At some point the dirt build up will negate the protection, however the sheeting is most desirable for the wash stage.

The fact there is as little as possible water left for drying off the better.

The sheeting also for stationary vehicle that may not be used too often to help reduce deposits from water evaporation.

For me personally, dirt build up does not bother me as i wash every week unless something prevents that.

But any reduction in dirt deposited the better.


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## Yellow Dave (Apr 5, 2011)

I wash both cars every weekend, dirt build up was bad enough by end of Wednesday to stop water bebaviour, but I guess that depends on individual use.

It's as I tbought really, cars that aren't really used/ spend long periods standard sheting has its benefits. Regularly used cars would benefit from beading. All until dirt builds up enough to produce a film of dirt.

Most performing LSP's will still sheet off water with an open hose during the wash stage. So really, as Steve says, it doesn't really mater past personal preferences of aesthetic


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## MAXI-MILAN (Oct 26, 2008)

Slow sheeting gives good advantage for who use pressure washer , you can hit whole car by pressure washer gun and leave it to dry without need to open hose to remove water spots.


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## caledonia (Sep 13, 2008)

Hydrophobic or Hydrophilic all suffer from the same problems as any LSP applied to any vehicle. In that they get covered in Traffic film either by road use and the exhaust and carbon deposits that are on all road surfaces stick to the sides of your car. This is also the case from above as anyone that lives near an airport in it flight path will mention. This thin layer of oil and grease will hold dust and dirt particles to your paint and requires chemical to dissolve and then release this grime. Where it be Snow foam or APC they all act the same and dissolve this thin layer or oil. 

Where Hydrophilic coating will have their advantages in on town car or car that do very little miles and remain stationary for most of their time. As once the car is clean the slow water movement will carry away this thin layer of dust, through it slow sheeting. It also has major advantages where water spotting it an issue with water evaporation and causing the dissolved minerals to become concentrated as the water evaporates. So very little chance of calcium etching on the surface., and also nothing really left to dry once the car has been cleaned. 

As pointed out already Glass coating or silica bases coating are not smooth. There form into a granular surface and this is where the marketing term of the lotus effect come from as this granular surface acts like the hairs in the plants leaves. Less surface area and tension to release grim and dirty. Most manufactures have spray topper to relevel this upper surface. Create a more truer layer and in turn. Reduce the distortion of the coating and aid a truer reflection. These spray toppers also act as a sacrificial layer and add protection to save the harder coating suffering the same effects as weather and environmental erosion. This happens to unprotected paint as it does to these coatings. It also hold the dissolved minerals within water off the minerals used within these coating. As natural occurring minerals within tap water will automatically attract to the minerals with the coat and become one. (Examples calcium within water being absorbed and becoming part of the Silica within the coating.) This is now part of the coating and nothing much can be done in most cases
. 
This is just a few key point to consider where looking at coating and whether they suit you vehicle or its driving and living conditions. 
Gordon.


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## suspal (Dec 29, 2011)

caledonia said:


> Hydrophobic or Hydrophilic all suffer from the same problems as any LSP applied to any vehicle. In that they get covered in Traffic film either by road use and the exhaust and carbon deposits that are on all road surfaces stick to the sides of your car. This is also the case from above as anyone that lives near an airport in it flight path will mention. This thin layer of oil and grease will hold dust and dirt particles to your paint and requires chemical to dissolve and then release this grime. Where it be Snow foam or APC they all act the same and dissolve this thin layer or oil.
> 
> Where Hydrophilic coating will have their advantages in on town car or car that do very little miles and remain stationary for most of their time. As once the car is clean the slow water movement will carry away this thin layer of dust, through it slow sheeting. It also has major advantages where water spotting it an issue with water evaporation and causing the dissolved minerals to become concentrated as the water evaporates. So very little chance of calcium etching on the surface., and also nothing really left to dry once the car has been cleaned.
> 
> ...


nice to see the oracle back :thumb:


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## caledonia (Sep 13, 2008)

suspal said:


> nice to see the oracle back :thumb:


Behave you. 
Not had much of a chance to get on this year. Looking forward to a more restful period and might manage again you never know :lol:


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## Goodfella36 (Jul 21, 2009)

Good Speaking to you today Gordon I am home at last aren't you meant to be balls cough :thumb:


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## caledonia (Sep 13, 2008)

Goodfella36 said:


> Good Speaking to you today Gordon I am home at last aren't you meant to be balls cough :thumb:


Took you long enough. Must be out or practice. :thumb:
And
The comment was Bawz deep. Get it right for Goodness sake. :lol:


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## Goodfella36 (Jul 21, 2009)

caledonia said:


> Took you long enough. Must be out or practice. :thumb:
> And
> The comment was Bawz deep. Get it right for Goodness sake. :lol:


erse cheeky goon im getting auld transporter big to get round my fannybawz


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## craigblues (Jul 24, 2011)

I got a lovely Silver Vivaro that needs some protecting...


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## Goodfella36 (Jul 21, 2009)

craigblues said:


> I got a lovely Silver Vivaro that needs some protecting...


Keep saying to bring it over though need couple of days after this.


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## craigblues (Jul 24, 2011)

You completed it then! 

Maybe early Jan I'll pop up!


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## Goodfella36 (Jul 21, 2009)

craigblues said:


> You completed it then!
> 
> Maybe early Jan I'll pop up!


Ill be over at mats for a few days in jan doing my new car


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## craigblues (Jul 24, 2011)

Goodfella36 said:


> Ill be over at mats for a few days in jan doing my new car


RoadTrip!! If I can get some elevated photography work up there too it be ideal!


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## suspal (Dec 29, 2011)

Goodfella36 said:


> Keep saying to bring it over though need couple of days after this.


looks like blinging Lee :thumb:


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## orbital (Dec 28, 2010)

The way i look at this is,the sheeting way has the best benefit but your never quite sure if the protection is still there? with the beading you can gauage were the protection is upto? a bit unscientific i know but perhaps how the majority would see it


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## Yellow Dave (Apr 5, 2011)

How much water is needed on a panel, in real world conditions not when washing and rinsing, for it to sheet effectively? 

The beading and sheeting seen when washing and rinsing mean sod all to helping the panel stay cleaner when a little dust and dirt settles on it and a rain shower comes over. And it'll take a very heavy shower before the sheeting becomes effective enough to help clean a panel.

Therefore one is no better than the other, it cones down to personal aesthetic preference


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