# Hologram *Discuss*



## spitfire (Feb 10, 2007)

Looking at a guys new car at work the other day, I noticed in the sun some spectcular holograms on the rear bumper quarter. It's probably the first time I've seen holograms, as opposed to buffer trails, in the flesh and wondered why they looked so deep inside the paint.

Caused by incorrect finishing by a rotory I know but why do they look so deep in the paint?

Sorry if this is a daft question. Just trying to understand them better.


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## Timmo (Mar 21, 2006)

spitfire said:


> Caused by incorrect finishing by a rotory I know but why do they look so deep in the paint?
> 
> Sorry if this is a daft question. Just trying to understand them better.


Incorrect finishing via a rotory would leave Buffer trails!! holograms are left from product not being sufficently buffed of, and why they move on the panel when wiped over, Hence Holograming!

seems Very common to swap them around! but holo's are caused by insuficient removal of the product!
buffer trails through using the polisher with more pressure on one side of the pads to the toher normally!


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## spitfire (Feb 10, 2007)

Timmo said:


> Incorrect finishing via a rotory would leave Buffer trails!! holograms are left from product not being sufficently buffed of, and why they move on the panel when wiped over, Hence Holograming!
> 
> seems Very common to swap them around! but holo's are caused by insuficient removal of the product!
> buffer trails through using the polisher with more pressure on one side of the pads to the toher normally!


Ah, I see.
So the holograms should disappear with a wipe over with a QD and MF?


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## Timmo (Mar 21, 2006)

yup! 
if you wipe them with an mf on its own you'll see that they should effectively move position on the panel, hence the name holograming, if they dont move at all then buffer trails would be more likely!


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## spitfire (Feb 10, 2007)

Timmo said:


> yup!
> if you wipe them with an mf on its own you'll see that they should effectively move position on the panel, hence the name holograming, if they dont move at all then buffer trails would be more likely!


Thanks for that Timmo. You learn something every day:thumb: I was amazed with the holograms. They seemed to be about six to eight inches below the surface of the paint.


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## Timmo (Mar 21, 2006)

yeah they do looke very deep!! more so on metalics i find than bold colours!!


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## spitfire (Feb 10, 2007)

Timmo said:


> yeah they do looke very deep!! more so on metalics i find than bold colours!!


Yeh it was a black metalic vectra


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## JonR (May 14, 2006)

vx paint is ****e for these, i seen a brand new 57 rg with 3 miles on the clock and it was covered in them  nightmare, i have them on my 06 rg vectra too, cant get rid of them. tried FF on a blue pad and worked till no more but still there.


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## spitfire (Feb 10, 2007)

JonR said:


> vx paint is ****e for these, i seen a brand new 57 rg with 3 miles on the clock and it was covered in them  nightmare, i have them on my 06 rg vectra too, cant get rid of them. tried FF on a blue pad and worked till no more but still there.


Oh dear, now you've confused me again because from what's just been said, you should be able to remove these with a QD and MF, unless your talking buffer trails.


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## JonR (May 14, 2006)

nope. i dont know what they are. Using a pc/or by hand they stay put lol. you can sometimes change them. used meths/isoprpynol wont touch them


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## Timmo (Mar 21, 2006)

jon, that to me sounds like buffer trails matey! if your not removing them with the pc then they arnt holo's! 

may need to step up in strength compound to remove them!


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## parish (Jun 29, 2006)

Timmo said:


> yup!
> if you wipe them with an mf on its own you'll see that they should effectively move position on the panel, hence the name holograming, if they dont move at all then buffer trails would be more likely!


There's an exception. If you don't remove the polish properly, then wax over it, you seal them in so can't remove them with QD and an MF. I know that from experience of not removing Megs DC#2 properly (looked OK at the time as the car was in the shade, but next day in full sun     )

Spitfire, the reason they look so deep in the paint is due to the way the light is reflected. If you look at a real hologram - on a Windows CD, or your credit card - the image there appears to be inside the CD/card. Thinking back 35 years to O'Level Physics I think they are called virtual images and are created because the light rays come back off the distorted surface (i.e. the thin layer of product) at the wrong angle - they come back at the angle they would be from a more distant object so your eyes/brain sees the object as further away than it really is. I would think that smearing would not be a uniformly thin film but rather a series of very small "grooves" caused by the fibres in the cloth and so the surface would act like a Fresnel lens.

/waits for our resident Physicist, Dave KG, to come along and ask how the hell I ever got my Physics O'Level


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## spitfire (Feb 10, 2007)

parish said:


> There's an exception. If you don't remove the polish properly, then wax over it, you seal them in so can't remove them with QD and an MF. I know that from experience of not removing Megs DC#2 properly (looked OK at the time as the car was in the shade, but next day in full sun     )
> 
> Spitfire, the reason they look so deep in the paint is due to the way the light is reflected. If you look at a real hologram - on a Windows CD, or your credit card - the image there appears to be inside the CD/card. Thinking back 35 years to O'Level Physics I think they are called virtual images and are created because the light rays come back off the distorted surface (i.e. the thin layer of product) at the wrong angle - they come back at the angle they would be from a more distant object so your eyes/brain sees the object as further away than it really is. I would think that smearing would not be a uniformly thin film but rather a series of very small "grooves" caused by the fibres in the cloth and so the surface would act like a Fresnel lens.
> 
> /waits for our resident Physicist, Dave KG, to come along and ask how the hell I ever got my Physics O'Level


Good stab at the description anyway. Cheers:thumb:


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## GlynRS2 (Jan 21, 2006)

parish said:


> /waits for our resident Physicist, Dave KG, to come along and ask how the hell I ever got my Physics O'Level


I would approve your physics 'O' level with that explanation - convinced me anyway :thumb:

(For all of you youngsters 'O' levels were what we all did before they invented GCSE's. Similar but obviously of a much higher academic standard, cos' we had it hard at school not like the youth of today   )


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## Wheelie_Clean (Jun 16, 2007)

GlynRS2 said:


> I would approve your physics 'O' level with that explanation - convinced me anyway :thumb:
> 
> (For all of you youngsters 'O' levels were what we all did before they invented GCSE's. Similar but obviously of a much higher academic standard, cos' we had it hard at school not like the youth of today   )


High 5 brother and ahmen:lol:


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## spitfire (Feb 10, 2007)

GlynRS2 said:


> I would approve your physics 'O' level with that explanation - convinced me anyway :thumb:
> 
> (For all of you youngsters 'O' levels were what we all did before they invented GCSE's. Similar but obviously of a much higher academic standard, cos' we had it hard at school not like the youth of today   )


Yeh, you actually had to learn some things to get 'O' levels. Another Hi5 to you guys.


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## Brazo (Oct 27, 2005)

Thought I was on the set of a porn movie for one moment with all this Hi 5'ing!!!

Buffer Trails are easy to spot










Holograms imo can be casued by a number of things and do look similer to buffer trails just more random shapes! Things that cause holograms include not wiping off polish or wax residue properly or not breaking down a polish properly or just general marring on a car say by rubbing in dirt with your finger or just using too harsh a cloth can cause a holographic effect as can very light swirls!


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## Fat Audi 80 (Nov 8, 2006)

@ Brazo, I.E. Holograms can be in the clearcoat too, not just product, was my understanding or am I wrong...??

Cheers,

Steve.


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## spitfire (Feb 10, 2007)

Brazo said:


> Thought I was on the set of a porn movie for one moment with all this Hi 5'ing!!!
> 
> Buffer Trails are easy to spot
> 
> ...


I guess then that buffer trails could also produce holograms?


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## Brazo (Oct 27, 2005)

Fat Audi 80 said:


> @ Brazo, I.E. Holograms can be in the clearcoat too, not just product, was my understanding or am I wrong...??
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Steve.





spitfire said:


> I guess then that buffer trails could also produce holograms?


In short paint defects mainly consist of fine lines or micro scratches. When in circular patterns these appear as swirls like formations what we generally know as a swirl.

However when two or more lines appear close together in a uniform pattern which could be produced by improper use of a rotary polisher or could even be produced by running your sleeve in a straight line across some paint (try it ) then stereoscopic lines can be produced. These can have a holographic effect when viewed in the right light. Buffer trails are simply one form of a holographic effect which in itself is a form of marring.

Smeared polishes and waxes can also give the effect of a hologram until they are wiped away properly.

To add, I think we tend to like to name things on here, i..e put things in boxes, thats a hologram, thats a buffer trail, when truth be told they are all forms of marring or scratching, some appear swirl like, some holographic but perhaps its wrong to try and label each type when they can be caused by so many different things?


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## parish (Jun 29, 2006)

Brazo said:


> To add, I think we tend to like to name things on here, i..e put things in boxes, thats a hologram, thats a buffer trail, when truth be told they are all forms of marring or scratching, some appear swirl like, some holographic but perhaps its wrong to try and label each type when they can be caused by so many different things?


How true, but then it is equally true of any field, they always develop their own language.

'Hologram' though, as used on DW, is particularly bad as it is a recognized optical phenomenon and, as you point out, most of the surface effects we see are holographic - the pic you posted above reminds me of those discharge lamps (the ones where putting your hand on them makes the light streams inside deflect) and the trails are definitely holographic - they appear to be behind the panel.

As another example of confusion caused by terminology, there was a thread over on Megs UK a couple of years ago where someone was asking about removing swirls from a car. After a fairly lengthy discussion it turned out that what he (actually, I think it was she) called swirls were in fact smears caused by product residue but because (s)he had used a circular motion to buff the smears were swirly.


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## Fat Audi 80 (Nov 8, 2006)

Thanks one and all.

In that case what I have refered to as "Holograms" on my car are actually buffer trails / marks that appear to "float" above the surface and move with the sunlight as you move your head...

Cheers,

Steve.


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## JonR (May 14, 2006)

Whats this then?

its been FF'd twice and its still there?


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## JonR (May 14, 2006)

also if i dry a car i havent touched before with my Sonus Der Wunders they leave so much hologramming its ridiculous. Even with LT and i washed them 3 times with CG's MF wash and fairy non bio


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## Breezy (Jun 24, 2006)

those white marks look like yo've gone through to the primer! although they could just be clumps of polish... i hope!


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## Clark @ PB (Mar 1, 2006)

Think thats just the light reflecting, not through to the primer, looks almost like a scuff to me...

Have you had a look at how deep they are? in sunlight some defects look light but can actually be quite deep into the clear coat when you see them in the shade etc


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## spitfire (Feb 10, 2007)

Clark said:


> Think thats just the light reflecting, not through to the primer, looks almost like a scuff to me...
> 
> Have you had a look at how deep they are? in sunlight some defects look light but can actually be quite deep into the clear coat when you see them in the shade etc


What's you take on holograms v buffer trails the Clark. How would you catagorize them?


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## Clark @ PB (Mar 1, 2006)

spitfire said:


> What's you take on holograms v buffer trails the Clark. How would you catagorize them?


To be fair, i used to put buffer trails into the category of holograms and the smears from waxes/other LSP's as just smears to be honest, along with the fine lines that can be caused from washing or having a dud MF.

Nowadays though as with most, if i were to see the holograming effect from a rotary polisher i would call that a buffer trail. If i were to see smears from polish residue or LSPs i would class it as holograms. The ocassional fine scratch that is caused from washing/drying or a poor Mf i would class as marring.

Either way, in my opinion it is more important to know what they are, how they got there and how to remove them, not what the correct term for them is as people often describe them in their own way as we see all the time


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## spitfire (Feb 10, 2007)

Clark said:


> To be fair, i used to put buffer trails into the category of holograms and the smears from waxes/other LSP's as just smears to be honest, along with the fine lines that can be caused from washing or having a dud MF.
> 
> Nowadays though as with most, if i were to see the holograming effect from a rotary polisher i would call that a buffer trail. If i were to see smears from polish residue or LSPs i would class it as holograms. The ocassional fine scratch that is caused from washing/drying or a poor Mf i would class as marring.
> 
> Either way, in my opinion it is more important to know what they are, how they got there and how to remove them, not what the correct term for them is as people often describe them in their own way as we see all the time


Yeh, it does seem like everyone has there own ideas of what's what. I'm glad I asked the question though if only to find that out.

Thanks for all the replies BTW chaps:thumb:


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## Clark @ PB (Mar 1, 2006)

so do you now understand which is which or are you more confused? lol


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## spitfire (Feb 10, 2007)

Clark said:


> so do you now understand which is which or are you more confused? lol


Like everyone else, I'll just describe them as I see em:lol:


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## maesal (Nov 24, 2005)

2 examples in the same car i polished in feb/07:

- Buffer trails?










- Holograms?


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## Clark @ PB (Mar 1, 2006)

maesal said:


> 2 examples in the same car i polished in feb/07:
> 
> - Buffer trails?
> 
> ...


See this is where the difference lies with what people class as holograms or buffer trails, as i would say they are both pics of buffer trails....


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## Clark @ PB (Mar 1, 2006)

I would say the black scooby in the pic below (on the doors) is what i would call holograms....










It also looks like wash marring but this was a pic of after it was waxed according to the owner so it must be holograms from smears/or a dud MF that inflicted marring


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## maesal (Nov 24, 2005)

It's difficult....
More examples:

- My car after a respray:










- Some defects in a 911:










I think that the first are buffer trails and the seconf holograms, but I'm not sure at all !!


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## Clark @ PB (Mar 1, 2006)

I would have said perhaps the other way around lol!!


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## maesal (Nov 24, 2005)

Clark said:


> I would have said perhaps the other way around lol!!


:lol: :lol:


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## spitfire (Feb 10, 2007)

I think it's also difficult to determine by looking at a pic. Buffer trails I would expect to see on the surface of the paint whereas holograms I would expect to look like they were well below the surface. :wall: :lol:


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## Brazo (Oct 27, 2005)

Its all marring - simple


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