# Homebrew - How hard can it be?



## Brad-ST

Hey guys,

so i ended up reading the 30 odd page discussion between rubbishboy and dodo factory last night as i have been thinking more and more about making some of my own products.

My question is, how hard is it to actually make products? Is it worth it? Or would it be better to pay a company to make it for you?

I have been thinking about starting with what I think would be easier to make, that being a shampoo, snowfoam and a quick detailing spray. 

Once I get the jist of it I can then move on to some more products, essentially, my question is, how hard is it ( i know i will fail for a while before making something that resembles a cleaning product) and also, can anyone recommend any resources that give an explination on how to make these products?


----------



## Sicskate

Making a wax is easy...

Making a decent wax isn't 

Home brewers like bouncers and odk spend years working on a single product.


----------



## Kimo

To make a base wax isn't hard

To make a good wax takes a lot of time, effort, money, research and mistakes


----------



## adjones

It isn't rocket science but it is still science. Without a strong background or business relationship, you won't get insurance for making your own products. I've encountered the situation where someone thinks that they are insured but actually have no product liability cover because they weren't explicitly telling the insurer that they were manufacturing. To tell an insurer that you need cover to mix chemicals, with no training or real experience and then sell them for use on something like a ferrari... Would you insure that risk!?


----------



## WhiteRoc_170

If you need to ask for resources to explain how to make them then it obviously must be hard and not as straight forward as you think. 

Products nowadays aren't that expensive and you can get decent stuff that works well cheap. Is it really worth the hassle of buying and trying to make your own? Leave that to the big boys


----------



## Brad-ST

WhiteRoc_170 said:


> If you need to ask for resources to explain how to make them then it obviously must be hard and not as straight forward as you think.
> 
> Products nowadays aren't that expensive and you can get decent stuff that works well cheap. Is it really worth the hassle of buying and trying to make your own? Leave that to the big boys


I don't NEED resources, I just thought i would ask if anyone had any good suggestions.

Products may not be expensive now, but it still doesn't take away the fact i'd like to give it a go. If I was worried about the cost of stuff I'd have a crap car and pay the local car wash £4.99 to ruin it.

If nobody tried things themselves the world would be an incredibly boring place..


----------



## steelghost

Let me give you an analogy. If I wanted to obtain an M8 stainless steel bolt, I could in theory buy some rod, and plate, a die cutting set, some welding gear and whatever else I needed to make a bolt, from scratch.

I could spend huge amounts of money doing this, and many many hours practising to get it right, and eventually I *might *make a bolt that would be not quite as good as the ones you can buy from a real manufacturer. Or I might waste a huge amount of time, money and effort with nothing to show for it (or at least, a lot of bits of stainless scrap).

Now if I really wanted to learn metalwork, making a bolt might be a worthwhile learning exercise, but hand-making them all is not a sensible way of doing it.

Completely agree it's good to try things yourself, but be under no illusions about the level of effort and money involved to do what you're suggesting, even to a pretty mediocre level.


----------



## Pittsy

You would be amazed at what goes into making a good wax.... 

Yeah you could ruin a few sauce pans and make a mess in the kitchen if you wanted to and if you are prepared for some disappointments and a load of wax in the bin i would say get someone who has put the hours in and knows whats what to make it:thumb:


----------



## adjones

If you don't need any resources, why not just do it (assuming that you aren't intending to sell it on to anyone)?

For most people, the resources to make these things are simply not available. By the time you would get hold of the smallest quantities needed to make the products suggested, you could easily have spend several thousand pounds and have completely filled the floor space of your garage.


----------



## saltwater

I suggest you give wax making a try.
you say you've chosen easier to formulate products. you'd be surprised at what goes into making a good shampoo. 
Also a qd is liquid, trust me that's a lot harder to get right than a paste wax is.
One last point. Try getting hold of the ingredients to make an actual shampoo (not a soap) and you'll see how hard it us

best wishes with your ventures


----------



## Nadeem

Wax making is very easy! Iv been doing it for a month now, homebrewing, but to get it how you want is the pain part, Iv got so many oils it's unreal


----------



## Paul7189

saltwater said:


> I suggest you give wax making a try.
> 
> you say you've chosen easier to formulate products. you'd be surprised at what goes into making a good shampoo.
> 
> Also a qd is liquid, trust me that's a lot harder to get right than a paste wax is.
> 
> One last point. Try getting hold of the ingredients to make an actual shampoo (not a soap) and you'll see how hard it us
> 
> best wishes with your ventures


Isn't shampoo just soap and sodium laurel sulphate with water?

I'm pretty sure you can make natural shampoo by using potassium hydroxide with oils instead of sodium hydroxide then add an excess of water to that.


----------



## saltwater

Paul7189 said:


> Isn't shampoo just soap and sodium laurel sulphate with water?
> 
> I'm pretty sure you can make natural shampoo by using potassium hydroxide with oils instead of sodium hydroxide then add an excess of water to that.


This much is true, potassium hydroxide based soaps are liquid so that would be a good starting reference but there's more that goes into it. If you want something that has decent dilution ratios then there won't be much water in the final product.
There are also these points to consider, lubricity so you feel your wash mitt gliding and not dragging. Cleaning power, that's not just down to the soap base. PH value, what will you use to neutralize the shampoo to get a neutral end product. That's just a couple of points to think about. You've then got scents, colouring, gloss enhancers etc (all the points I try to avoid in any shampoo, I like mine to be simple. I want gloss etc I'll add it myself )

Regards
Saltwater


----------



## Paul7189

I would of thought that you want your shampoo to be as refined as possible and scents and additives aren't needed. If you make your shampoo with a slight oil bias and add some kind of sulphate surfactant to it wouldn't you get the lubricity needed and pH levels you want as the extra oil would eliminate any remaining caustic. I have never really tried making shampoo but read up on the cosmetic manufacturing side after a conversation in work (I work in a lab - yes we have boring conversations). We even tried to make a basic hand soap with olive and palm oils just to see how hard it was.


----------



## Paul7189

Ben Gum said:


> The mere mention of soap and caustic sodas and potash is enough for me to say this is out of scope. For a car shampoo, that's a bit like pulling out your abacus to do your tax return - never heard of a calculator or computer?
> 
> I maintain that homebrew is a disaster waiting to happen. If you knew enough to be safe, you would know why not to and would never entertain having pots of flammable liquids on cookers in kitchens.


Potash??? Who mentioned that?

I have never made or even through of making a car shampoo I was just talking about making basic soaps that can be adjusted for different purposes.

If you say it's not worth home brewing then that's the wrong mentality to have. If it weren't for people doing things like this we wouldn't have anything we use in our lives today. I'm fully for people having a go and learning from it.

However if you are going to make some home brew please make it a nice hoppy IPA and I'll me more than happy to do a review for you


----------



## Paul7189

Potash is potassium salts. A key component of chemical fertiliser. There is a massive difference between potash and caustic potash. Surely that's ignorance with chemicals calling something by another name. 

I know what potassium hydroxide is I have worked in labs for years. And I mentioned above making your soap with an oil bias meaning any caustic will be used up by the excess of oil. That's why cosmetic soaps have a superfat figure making sure there is no caustic left over. 

You should never assume the people you are taking to are clueless with these things. You never know they might even know more than you...


----------



## steelghost

Ben Gum said:


> Potassium hydroxide is caustic potash. See what I mean? That's basic basic stuff.


I don't know if this was a deliberate pun but I LOL'd 

Mr Gum, although expressing himself in his usual abrasive style, has a point - particularly when it comes to shampoos and other cleaners, some of the main ingredients are really not things you want to be experimenting with IE you need to know what you're doing.


----------



## Paul7189

steelghost said:


> I don't know if this was a deliberate pun but I LOL'd
> 
> Mr Gum, although expressing himself in his usual abrasive style, has a point - particularly when it comes to shampoos and other cleaners, some of the main ingredients are really not things you want to be experimenting with IE you need to know what you're doing.


But as I said above. Caustic potash and just potash are completely different things. I have an advanced knowledge of hazardous chemicals after working in labs for years. I have worked with things that are more dangerous that any of the ingredients in any soaps such as pyrophoric chemicals and hydrofluoric acid. It's a shame that people online assume you don't know what you are taking about and take great pleasure in "trying" to put you in your place.


----------



## steelghost

Paul7189 said:


> But as I said above. Caustic potash and just potash are completely different things. I have an advanced knowledge of hazardous chemicals after working in labs for years. I have worked with things that are more dangerous that any of the ingredients in any soaps such as pyrophoric chemicals and hydrofluoric acid. It's a shame that people online assume you don't know what you are taking about and take great pleasure in "trying" to put you in your place.


I couldn't agree more - unfortunately Mr Google brings many people to this forums thread who may not have any level of knowledge of chemistry. I felt it worth mentioning that despite the snark, the basic (ha) point that raw ingredients for apparently innocuous things like shampoo can be dangerous and that you really want to have a good idea what you're doing (or at least, the right safety precautions to take!) before doing this kind of home brewing.

My post was not intended to imply a lack of knowledge on the part of anyone in the thread, more just to make it clear I felt he had a point, despite the cheap point scoring.


----------



## Paul7189

Ben Gum said:


> You specifically mentioned "potassium hydroxide" and I referred to it as "caustic potash" (which it is). Somehow you are dropping the "caustic" and trying to tell us that I am the idiot for using the word potash. The "potash" thing is a red herring. The point was that no way would you be making a car shampoo with potassium hydroxide as a key!
> 
> PS I'm very glad that you've worked in a lab. I had a friend worked as a civil servant. Typed up a letter to the prime minister one day. Going places she is.


You talk about specifics then incorrectly use a specific term by just saying potash the first time. That's what I mentioned.

And with an attitude that like I'm honestly surprised you have friends at all!


----------



## GleemSpray

All we need now is a thread about making homebrew TFR and that would truly be the fight to end all fights... 😊 

Sent from my HTC 10 using Tapatalk


----------



## steelghost

GleemSpray said:


> All we need now is a thread about making homebrew TFR and that would truly be the fight to end all fights... 😊


Please mate, don't give anyone any ideas :doublesho :lol:


----------



## cheekymonkey

GleemSpray said:


> All we need now is a thread about making homebrew TFR and that would truly be the fight to end all fights... 😊
> 
> Sent from my HTC 10 using Tapatalk


would a caustic or none caustic tfr be best:lol::lol:


----------



## GleemSpray

cheekymonkey said:


> would a caustic or none caustic tfr be best:lol::lol:


Oh don't be sar-caustic...:lol:

No, i've been thinking about this, how hard could it be ? So i had a go.

Well it's like, the TFR label mentions stuff called _something - oxy - something_, and _something - thylene_ which sounds just the same as the ingredients in patio cleaner, right ?, so I chucked some of that in.

Then you need something soapy, so a bit of good old BOLD won't do any harm. It always makes me shirts look clean and white again.

Petrol is cheap and its great for lifting Tar spots, so a good glug of that went in too.

When I woke up, I realised I had banged me head on the floor, coz of the fumes, but its only the first batch. I will have to get some of those builders dust masks they sell at B&Q to stop it happening again - Health and Safety and all that.

Alkaline is basically Milk init ? That should settle it down a bit.

All I need to do now is heat it on the stove and decant it into a sprayer.

Final touch is a toilet block left in overnight to give it a nice scent.


----------



## cheekymonkey

GleemSpray said:


> Oh don't be sar-caustic...:lol:
> 
> No, i've been thinking about this, how hard could it be ? So i had a go.
> 
> Well it's like, the TFR label mentions stuff called _something - oxy - something_, and _something - thylene_ which sounds just the same as the ingredients in patio cleaner, right ?, so I chucked some of that in.
> 
> Then you need something soapy, so a bit of good old BOLD won't do any harm. It always makes me shirts look clean and white again.
> 
> Petrol is cheap and its great for lifting Tar spots, so a good glug of that went in too.
> 
> When I woke up, I realised I had banged me head on the floor, coz of the fumes, but its only the first batch. I will have to get some of those builders dust masks they sell at B&Q to stop it happening again - Health and Safety and all that.
> 
> Alkaline is basically Milk init ? That should settle it down a bit.
> 
> All I need to do now is heat it on the stove and decant it into a sprayer.
> 
> Final touch is a toilet block left in overnight to give it a nice scent.


:lol::lol:


----------



## Goodfella36

Made these around two years ago i dont think its so hard to make a good wax some of the better ingredients can be a pain to get hold of though i started with dodo juice solvent which is a good start but there are better ones to play with.


----------

