# £10-15k M Cars



## Alex_225 (Feb 7, 2008)

Well, as I'm sure all of you do, you have a window shop for cars you'd like to consider next. 

Well I've always had a soft spot for the BMW M cars and as much as the Megane Trophy is a laugh, it would be nice to have refinement and speed. 

Don't get me wrong a car like the Evo FQ320 would tick the performance box over the 260bhp of the Megane but I'm not sure I'm keen on the image of the Evo/Scoobies as much as their performance is admirable. Also, I'm aware the interior on them isn't that inspiring either and I'd like an upgrade in that sense from the Megane. 

So the M3/M5s, I don't know all that much about them at the moment and need to do my homework but are they something to consider? Or am I looking at a potential money pit?


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## Clancy (Jul 21, 2013)

E46 m3 is an amazing car but expensive to run 

My mate gets 25 mpg ish but service costs are high, normal price on oil and filter changes but the two levels of inspection servuce can cost like £4-800 

Parts are expensive too, discs pads and tyres are all going to be pricey as they are big and you don't want to use budget anything 

Not sure on the m5 never been in one or know anyone with one 

I would also say have a look at similar audi cars, you can get 06 ish rs4 for 15k. Or some s4 /s5/s6 of certain ages


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## Starbuck88 (Nov 12, 2013)

I'm currently saving for an E39 M5.

There are good ones about from £7,500 to £13,000

There is a stunner at £29,995 that's done just 16k from new. Amazing.

I have always wanted an M5 and as far as running costs, parts etc, the E39 seems the way to go. The E60 is not as highly regarded even if it does have a singing V10.

I cannot wait for the day I go and pick one up.

Also the E39...you can work on it yourself.

I've been watching videos on VANOS issues, Proshaft bearing replacement etc...it's all doable.

Just make sure you buy one that has been looked after as well as it could be. There are a few at the moment that have had recent clutches. Anybody that knows their M5s will list them as 'Vanos good' etc as they know people who want a good one, will want to know that.


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## andy665 (Nov 1, 2005)

I looked deeply into an E46 M3 and even using BMW specialists the parts / servicing prices frightened me off - even though I'm used to Alfas, Porsches and non M BMW's

I was realistic enough to accept that whilst I could afford to buy a decent M3 I'd be constantly nervous about a looming big bill

I'm good friends with my local BMW specialist and he was quoting £400-500 for an Inspection A and £800 for an Inspection B

There is definitely an M tax payable on things like discs / pads, suspension parts etc, plus the required shim adjustment of valve clearances etc

As much as I wanted to I could not get the man maths right

As a comparison, I bought a jaguar S Type R, comparable performance to an E46 M3 and had no concerns whatsoever


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## Kimo (Jun 7, 2013)

Clancy said:


> E46 m3 is an amazing car but expensive to run
> 
> My mate gets 25 mpg ish but service costs are high, normal price on oil and filter changes but the two levels of inspection servuce can cost like £4-800
> 
> ...


Well your mate is getting ass raped then to be brutally honest

The filters are not much differently priced to 'normal' cars and either is oil for them particularly expensive


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## Bero (Mar 9, 2008)

A friend had a E46 and now has an E60, as does another friend, and another had an E92.

E46 M3 - Very dated interior.
E92 M3 - Miles ahead of the E46 inside...and (subjectively) much better looking outside.
E60 M5 - Chews through clutches and single figure MPG around town.


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## jay_bmw (Jan 28, 2010)

I've always stayed away from M cars for a reason, ive got around 30 bmw's under my belt now but could never justify an m car. I spent 20 grand last year on an E92 320d - but would never dream of spending it on a 20k E92 M3, although i'd love one , the performance i'd never use it & the servicing/inspections/insurance/fuel is just too much to justify IMO.


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## Dal3D (Jul 13, 2014)

Get yourself over to m3cutters and have a read.

Bought my 2005 E46 M3 last summer and if you buy carefully it's not a great expense. If you buy cheap and it's a dog then you will face some big bills. 

Granted it's not my daily drive, but when I do drive it, it's a hoot.


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## robertdon777 (Nov 3, 2005)

Bero said:


> A friend had a E46 and now has an E60, as does another friend, and another had an E92.
> 
> E46 M3 - Very dated interior.
> E92 M3 - Miles ahead of the E46 inside...and (subjectively) much better looking outside.
> E60 M5 - Chews through clutches and single figure MPG around town.


That down to personal taste, I prefer the interior of the e46 to the e90/92.

Personally if you buy an e46 for 10K just have 2K spare and that will see you through 3 years of motoring. Tyres and Discs/Pads are a fair bit more than say a Golf GTi but you are getting a much more sporty car.

The e46 is a pretty solid car in most respects, just check for rust on the front arches though and the usual niggles that are easy fixes like the climate hedgehog....But all second hand/new cars have their issues.

I wouldn't get an e60 M5 unless I had 5-7K spare in the kitty ready for bits to go wrong.

e46 M3 is the one to get at that price...or a CLK55 AMG 370bhp


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## Starbuck88 (Nov 12, 2013)




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## jay_bmw (Jan 28, 2010)

robertdon777 said:


> That down to personal taste, I prefer the interior of the e46 to the e90/92.
> 
> Personally if you buy an e46 for 10K just have 2K spare and that will see you through 3 years of motoring. Tyres and Discs/Pads are a fair bit more than say a Golf GTi but you are getting a much more sporty car.
> 
> ...


These are pretty much my sentiments too. I come back to the E46 from the E92 as they are a bit bland imo & the interior (again subjective) feels a nicer place to be in the e46, not like the big surfboard style dash in the e9* range.

Wings on '46 M3's dont tend to rot, i've just replaced mine on a normal e46 but the arch liners are different on the M cars meaning rust is a lot more limited than it was on mainstream ones.


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## Bero (Mar 9, 2008)

robertdon777 said:


> *That down to personal taste, I prefer the interior of the e46 to the e90/92.*
> 
> Personally if you buy an e46 for 10K just have 2K spare and that will see you through 3 years of motoring. Tyres and Discs/Pads are a fair bit more than say a Golf GTi but you are getting a much more sporty car.
> 
> ...


I should maybe have said miles more modern looking. Likeability is of course down to personal taste.

CLK55 is an interesting alternative to the default choice of an RS4 :thumb:


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## jay_bmw (Jan 28, 2010)

oh yes, theres no doubut its more modern looking, but the e46 was designed in the mid ninties so its understandable  Still looks nicer than the avarage MK2 mondeo which was designed of the same era


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## Starbuck88 (Nov 12, 2013)

I have been in a few E90s and a E60 for journeys, going out for meals with friends who have them etc, every single one of them had some sort of creak or rattle.

I had a E39 P-Reg just a couple of years ago and it didn't make a single squeak. 

Personally I wouldn't go near either of them, the new F models seem to have regained pace in the quality control/materials used department and I think they look stunning and aren't going to age as fast as the E90 and E60.


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## jay_bmw (Jan 28, 2010)

i've owned; 

around 17 e46's
2 e39's 
2 E92's 
1x f21 (1 series new shape)

the e39 was the best built, closley followed by the e39 - the e92 was plasticy and the f21 was propper bargain basement, i even made a topic on babybmw how thin the carpet was & felt likr ithad come out of a fiat punto :lol:


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## Clancy (Jul 21, 2013)

Kimo73 said:


> Well your mate is getting ass raped then to be brutally honest
> 
> The filters are not much differently priced to 'normal' cars and either is oil for them particularly expensive


If you read my post I said normal price on oil and filters but the inspection services are expensive :thumb:


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## RisingPower (Sep 21, 2007)

Clancy said:


> If you read my post I said normal price on oil and filters but the inspection services are expensive :thumb:


Lots of m specialists who do a better job than bmw main dealers and at half the price.

I found the e39 m5 a bit too old man for me, the e46 m3 a bit too much of a compromise and the rasp got on my nerves.

The only thing you have to bear in mind is it's a 60k car and I don't think many have sensible miles these days.

The only e46 m3 i'd want would be the csl, the other is too much of a lardass.

Holy hell the csl has gone up in value


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## RisingPower (Sep 21, 2007)

robertdon777 said:


> That down to personal taste, I prefer the interior of the e46 to the e90/92.
> 
> Personally if you buy an e46 for 10K just have 2K spare and that will see you through 3 years of motoring. Tyres and Discs/Pads are a fair bit more than say a Golf GTi but you are getting a much more sporty car.
> 
> ...


2k wouldn't see you through 3 years on an e46 m3


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## RisingPower (Sep 21, 2007)

Kimo73 said:


> Well your mate is getting ass raped then to be brutally honest
> 
> The filters are not much differently priced to 'normal' cars and either is oil for them particularly expensive


Not really, bmw standard charge for inspection 1 was ~800, inspection 2 ~1200.

Half those for a good specialist.


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## Dal3D (Jul 13, 2014)

Bit cheaper than that according to BMW for E46 and E39:

£669 Inspection 1
£899 Inspection 2
£169 Oil service

http://www.approved.bmw.co.uk/bmwuk/owner/service_value/mcars/moreinfo/0,,1312___,00.html

Although a decent independent will do
Insp 1 for £470ish
Insp 2 from £654

http://www.bartlett-auto.com/news/category/special-offers


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## RisingPower (Sep 21, 2007)

Dal3D said:


> Bit cheaper than that according to BMW for E46 and E39:
> 
> £669 Inspection 1
> £899 Inspection 2
> ...


Hmm all I know was my inspection 1 was 700-800ish from elms when they were still there, inspection 2 was supposed to be a fair bit more on average, maybe its changed though.

Indy m specialist in cambridge was about 400 for insp 1.


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## Guitarjon (Jul 13, 2012)

If you like your cars and really want one then you must get it out of your system! 

Cars are metal. At then end of the day you can sell them on and move on. 

Like Andy, I've also just bought a Jaguar STR. Not excatly the same as an m5 but comparable. The BMW pricing is far worse than the Jag from what I have seen but things like brakes and tyres etc are always going to be more than the normal sort of car (90% of whats on the road) because they are performance cars. 

I have 6 pot brembos on my car and they look amazing behind the wheels but it's a 400bhp car with almost 2 Tonne of weight to stop. The brakes are obviously still very good but they don't feel any better than the brakes in my MX5 mk3 due to the mx5 not having as much to stop. Everythings relative. 

I don't think you can go wrong with the m3 or m5 if you are happy to pay the upkeep. My reasoning was that cars are my thing. I don't smoke, drink etc so I'd be very bored if I didn't have anything to keep me entertained. 

M5s look significantly more spacious inside but at the same time m3s quite possibly look sportier because they are smaller?


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## kings.. (Aug 28, 2007)

E46 m3's are great cars and don't cost that much to upkeep. Just get one with good history and a well inspected rear subframes! They don't really suffer with rot unless they've been repaired, the front wings and bonnet are alloy if I recall correctly.
M5 is too a great car but a little more weighty in feel but a great engine.. get an M-car you won't regret it. I have had several and always miss them when they've gone!


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## rf860 (Jul 24, 2011)

This is something that i'm also considering. 

I'd be looking at the E46 M3. How much can you expect to pay for a decent example?


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

Like with any car that was expensive new, sadly they usually come with bills to reflect that.

Serviceable parts are pretty costly. Just try and find one that someone has done work, or the price reflects work coming up soon. 

I'd have the E92 before a E46 M3 but they are out of the budget. 

If you can live with two seats, I've got a right soft spot for the Z4M coupe. Pick carefully and it could be a good choice as values have bottomed out and many predicting a rise.


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## Alex_225 (Feb 7, 2008)

As always DW doesn't let me down for information, thanks guys.

I'm certainly not under any illusions as to the potential running costs and wear and tear repairs. 

I only do 5k a year in my 'daily' car and half of that is on the motorway so I'm not exactly putting a big strain on my 225 day to day. 

Probably a dumb question but what are these 1st and 2nd inspections all about? Is this some kind of service?


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## andy665 (Nov 1, 2005)

Alex_225 said:


> Probably a dumb question but what are these 1st and 2nd inspections all about? Is this some kind of service?


Exactly, Inspection 1 is a minor service, Inspection 2 is a major


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## alan hanson (May 21, 2008)

1 is lube 2 is no lube


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

alan hanson said:


> 1 is lube 2 is no lube


Are we still talking cars here? :lol:


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## Starbuck88 (Nov 12, 2013)

Alex_225 said:


> As always DW doesn't let me down for information, thanks guys.
> 
> I'm certainly not under any illusions as to the potential running costs and wear and tear repairs.
> 
> ...


Here is what's done in the inspections, bit long but gives you an idea what the difference is.

*BMW Inspection I*
Undercarriage
Change engine oil and filter oil while engine is at normal operation temperature.
Check transmission for leaks.
Check rear axle for leaks.
Visually check fuel tank, lines, and connections for leaks.
Check condition, position, and mounting of exhaust system. Examine for leaks.
Check power steering system for leaks.
Check overall thickness of front and rear disc brake pads.
Examine brake disc surfaces.
Clean brake pad contact points in calipers.
Grease wheel center hubs.
Check steering for absence of play, condition of suspension track rods, front axle joints, steering linkage, and joint disc.
Check front control arm bushing for wear.
Check brake and clutch system connectors and lines for leaks, damage, and incorrect positioning.
Check for free movement of the parking brake cables. Adjust parking brake if necessary.
Check all tire pressures (including spare). Correct if necessary.
Check condition of tires (outer surfaces (left/right)), tread wear and pattern; In case of uneven tread wear readjust wheel alignment if required.
Engine Compartment
Read out diagnostic system
Check engine cooling system/heater hose connections for leaks.
Check coolant level and antifreeze protection level; add coolant if necessary.
Check level of brake and clutch fluid in reservoir; add fluid if required.
Check windshield washer fluid level and antifreeze protection. Fill up and/or correct if necessary.
Check air conditioner for operation.
Reset Service Indicator.
Body/Electrical Equipment
Check battery electrolyte level and add distilled water if required.
Perform batter load test.
Check lighting system, i.e. headlights, foglights, parking, backup, license plate, interior (including map reading lights), glove box, flashlight, illuminated makeup mirrors, luggage compartment lights.
Check instrument panel and dashboard illumination.
Check all warning/indicator lights, check control.
Check turn signals, hazard warning flashers, brake lights, horns, headlight dimmer/flasher switch.
Check wiper and washer system(s); wiper blades, washer jet positions.
Check condition and function of safety belts.
Oil hood, trunk/tailgate, and door hinges.
Grease hood, trunk/tailgate and door latches. Check operation of all latches.
Check central locking/double lock.
Replace microfilter or Acc. Cabin Filter.
Check heater/air conditioner blower, rear window defogger.
Check rear view mirrors
Visually examine the SRS airbag units for torn cover, obvious damage or attachment of decals, decorations, or accessories.
Final Inspection
Road test with check of brakes, suspension, steering, clutch/manual transmission or automatic transmission

*Inspection II*

The Inspection 2 Service is the larger of the two Inspection Services and basically includes all of the items performed on the Inspection I Service along with some extras like differential oil change; fuel filter and air filter replacements; Replacement of spark plugs.
Undercarriage
Change engine oil and filter oil while engine is at normal operation temperature.
Check transmission for leaks.
Check rear axle for leaks.
Visually check fuel tank, lines, and connections for leaks.
Check condition, position, and mounting of exhaust system. Examine for leaks.
Check power steering system for leaks.
Check overall thickness of front and rear disc brake pads.
Examine brake disc surfaces.
Clean brake pad contact points in calipers.
Grease wheel center hubs.
Check steering for absence of play, condition of suspension track rods, front axle joints, steering linkage, and joint disc.
Check front control arm bushing for wear.
Check brake and clutch system connectors and lines for leaks, damage, and incorrect positioning.
Check for free movement of the parking brake cables. Adjust parking brake if necessary.
Check all tire pressures (including spare). Correct if necessary.
Check condition of tires (outer surfaces (left/right)), tread wear and pattern; In case of uneven tread wear readjust wheel alignment if required.
Check thickness of parking brake linings.
Half-shafts; check for leaks at flexible boots.
Inspect entire body according to terms of rust prevention limited warranty.
Engine Compartment
Read out diagnostic system
Check engine cooling system/heater hose connections for leaks.
Check coolant level and antifreeze protection level; add coolant if necessary.
Check level of brake and clutch fluid in reservoir; add fluid if required.
Check windshield washer fluid level and antifreeze protection. Fill up and/or correct if necessary.
Check air conditioner for operation.
Reset Service Indicator.
Replace spark plugs.
Replace intake air cleaner element.
Body/Electrical Equipment
Check battery electrolyte level and add distilled water if required.
Perform batter load test.
Check lighting system, i.e. headlights, foglights, parking, backup, license plate, interior (including map reading lights), glove box, flashlight, illuminated makeup mirrors, luggage compartment lights.
Check instrument panel and dashboard illumination.
Check all warning/indicator lights, check control.
Check turn signals, hazard warning flashers, brake lights, horns, headlight dimmer/flasher switch.
Check wiper and washer system(s); wiper blades, washer jet positions.
Check condition and function of safety belts.
Oil hood, trunk/tailgate, and door hinges.
Grease hood, trunk/tailgate and door latches. Check operation of all latches.
Check central locking/double lock.
Replace microfilter or Acc Cabin Filter.
Check heater/air conditioner blower, rear window defogger.
Check rear view mirrors
Visually examine the SRS airbag units for torn cover, obvious damage or attachment of decals, decorations, or accessories.
Final Inspection
Road test with check of brakes, suspension, steering, clutch/manual transmission or automatic transmission

Hope this gives you an idea of the difference.


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## RisingPower (Sep 21, 2007)

andy665 said:


> Exactly, Inspection 1 is a minor service, Inspection 2 is a major


Inbetween you have oil services.

They're also condition based rather than mileage, get a little service indicator.

The most expensive bit is examining the valve clearances iirc.

I'm still not sure about the z4m, then again, I went off the s54 engine 

VANOS I presume is still something you may want to be aware of.


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## Alex_225 (Feb 7, 2008)

That really does explain a lot. I take it this is all BMW only type servicing or specialist servicing places? 

Do these inspection services have to be done yearly?


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## RisingPower (Sep 21, 2007)

Alex_225 said:


> That really does explain a lot. I take it this is all BMW only type servicing or specialist servicing places?
> 
> Do these inspection services have to be done yearly?


As I said, servicing is condition based, not time based.

Goes insp 1, oil, insp 2, oil, insp 1 etc.

You either take it to a specialist (i'd recommend this), or bmw.

Never, ever, an indy.

These are the guys in cambridge for example. http://www.srnmotorservices.com/


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## robertdon777 (Nov 3, 2005)

RisingPower said:


> 2k wouldn't see you through 3 years on an e46 m3


easily if you are only doing 5K a year, and that was 2K as a reserve fund though...not including normal running cost; service/mot/tyres you would get on any car.

The 2K would be back up for any major work. that's why i would want 7k for an M5 reserve.


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## RisingPower (Sep 21, 2007)

robertdon777 said:


> easily if you are only doing 5K a year, and that was 2K as a reserve fund though...not including normal running cost; service/mot/tyres you would get on any car.
> 
> The 2K would be back up for any major work. that's why i would want 7k for an M5 reserve.


Ahh as a reserve, sure.


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## kos (Jun 19, 2008)

Kimo73 said:


> Well your mate is getting ass raped then to be brutally honest
> 
> The filters are not much differently priced to 'normal' cars and either is oil for them particularly expensive


Do you know what oil these engines take to make that comment ? The engines take 7 litres and and two 4 litre bottles of the correct oil, which is TWS 10w60 is £80/90


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## STEALTH K3 (Dec 29, 2006)

This would be the M model I would go for


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## Bero (Mar 9, 2008)

STEALTH K3 said:


> This would be the M model I would go for


THIS! Or a Z4M for a slightly more contemporary...but softer/less aggressive look.


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## Alex_225 (Feb 7, 2008)

Always loved the Z3M but sadly I don't think that's going to work too well with my little girl getting in the back haha

Maybe when she's a bit older.


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## Alex_225 (Feb 7, 2008)

Thought I'd resurrect my old M car post as been having another look at potential candidates to replace my 225 Trophy.

Probably not going to be until next year but I want to plan this one out properly as I should imagine in terms of running costs the jump up from a RenaultSport to an M car is significant.

I just fancy something with big power and comfort combined. Would I be really stupid to aim for an M6? The M3 is a lovely car but doesn't do it for me like the M6 does.

Also contemplated the Audi RS models so would be a similar age to the Megane but again, should I expect big costs running a 10 year old car which costs £50k+ new?


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## possul (Nov 14, 2008)

Hmmmmmmmmmmm e39 m5
Now were talking


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## robertdon777 (Nov 3, 2005)

Alex_225 said:


> Thought I'd resurrect my old M car post as been having another look at potential candidates to replace my 225 Trophy.
> 
> Probably not going to be until next year but I want to plan this one out properly as I should imagine in terms of running costs the jump up from a RenaultSport to an M car is significant.
> 
> ...


M6, just keep a £10K reserve fund for when things go bang, i wouldn't own one with my own money.

Just get a good e46 M3, prices are starting to rise after people realised they are good cars especially compared to the e90 V8 M3.


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## Starbuck88 (Nov 12, 2013)

The car I AM going to get as a toy, is going to be an E39 M5.

I deduced that they'd be cheaper than an E60, you're able to work on them on your own much more and don't have the dreaded gearbox.

Trouble is nice ones are getting thin on the ground. However they do come up at the right money.

I initially always wanted a E39 M5 but got tempted by the E46 M3 as you can pick them up for little money, however, everybody I spoke to on the Subject said the E46 M3s are great cars but don't feel 'all' that fast and what with most of them needing subframe work done and that because of their price points and 'status'...they're much more likely to have been owned by millions of owners and not treared very well.

Just my 2p


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## Alex_225 (Feb 7, 2008)

robertdon777 said:


> M6, just keep a £10K reserve fund for when things go bang, i wouldn't own one with my own money.


See that's exactly the concern I'd have, having said that they are the same engine as the M5 and is mechanical reliability that much of an issue on a car that was £60k in 2006/7?

I do like the M3 but they just don't do it for me like the M6. The M5 is a thought but again, it's not the M6 haha.


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## CoOkIeMoNsTeR (Mar 6, 2011)

In a word yes. It's the gearbox that's the problem, before getting the DB9 I did briefly consider an M6 convertible. Stunning car, really nice to look at, be in and drive IMO. The noise of the V10 is epic and when you're on the move the gearbox works well if you configure it right. My mate owns an M5 and I've driven that and we spent a while going through all the gearbox and diff modes to find the balance so when I drove the M6 I spent ages configuring the car, much to the vendors amusement. 

The problem is getting up to speed. Below 3000rpm the box doesn't have a clue, the shifts are jerky in auto and disobedient in manual. The car rolls back on hills (not a DSG lurch either, a full on roll!) no hill holder as it's an old car now so careful balance of handbrake and throttle is required doing no favours for the precious clutch which is the sticking point.

If I were you, stick to a 650i Sport or an older E39 M5. A CLK 55 is also a good shout IMO. Jag XKR perhaps (my other choice before the DB9)


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## Bero (Mar 9, 2008)

Research research research and go in with your eves open....but I guess that's what you're doing now.

I looked at all the cars in this area before deciding what to buy.

E60 M5s (and presumably the M6s) are really hard on clutches, especially with town driving, some electrical issues.

RS6 (last gen V8) - beware, turbos, intercoolers, suspension and gear boxes. A friend who now has a E60 M5 shelled out £7k for a new grearbox in his V8 RS6. My sister also had one in the garage that needed replaceable turbos. The V10 ones look stunning value but again costs that could frighten many!

RS4 B7 - seem reasonably reliable, most probably don't have the original suspension as it was a known weak point. Although I've driven one and it didn't do anything for me. Lovley interior and great seating position but didn't like the drive.

Nissan GTR - 6 month servicing up to 2011. Gearbox circlip issue does not seem to really be a problem. Dont bump a pedestrian, hit a cone or roll into a tow bar accidently, the pedestrian impact system is eye wateringly expensive if triggered.

Bentley Continental, DB9, 370Z?

Edit - I see cookie monster chimed in on the clutch issues before I had finished typing.


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## Bigstuff (Mar 2, 2012)

I would have an m6.
But not without warranty.


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## gally (May 25, 2008)

I just didn't feel cars like the E46 M3 justified their running costs, some of their OE prices are insane and to keep the value up M3 owners and buyers want a good history.

It's a strange thing, even a 6 series non M can be bought silly cheap, simply running it is always the issue. Then again that's why there are warranty companies out there!

Good luck whatever you choose, used cars break and you get wear and tear, I have no doubt you'll vex this into your thoughts when deciding!


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## transtek (Mar 2, 2007)

I have been looking at 2044 RS6's, and prices are now in the range where I could afford to buy and run one, as long as the gearbox doesn't go!
The sensible side of me has seen a 2008 Volvo S80, with the Yamaha-built 4.4l V8, with just 50k miles, one owner, safe as houses, not slow, but more comfortable and a lot newer, but is just doesn't give me the "fizz" of owning something a bit special! Must be the mid-life crisis everyone keeps talking about!
Let us know what you choose in the end!


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## andy665 (Nov 1, 2005)

gally said:


> I just didn't feel cars like the E46 M3 justified their running costs, some of their OE prices are insane and to keep the value up M3 owners and buyers want a good history.


I agree - I was close to buying an E46 M3 a couple of years ago, just doing some basic research saw me shy away - yes the car is a good one but not good enough to just £400 for a minor and £800 for a major service (that was from a BMW specialist who used to look after my E36 328


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## Gleammachine (Sep 8, 2007)

Starbuck88 said:


> The car I AM going to get as a toy, is going to be an E39 M5.
> 
> I deduced that they'd be cheaper than an E60, you're able to work on them on your own much more and don't have the dreaded gearbox.
> 
> ...


The E39 was one of BMW's finest moments, great cars but starting to age now. I've not had an M but have owned an E39 and did a lot of the maintenance work myself, mostly straightforward and achievable with a small degree of know how. Vanos seals are definately worthwhile upgrading (perish shortly after leaving the factory), bushes & joints will need doing if they already haven't, as will the discs and pads. Vacuum hoses generally split and need replacing once, and the cooling system is the heart of the car, they only overheat once, so it's preventive maintenance to replace it all.

Ideally, nice, well maintained examples will have carried out the above, but great cars.


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

The bottom line is you'll never avoid big bills driving big engined cars that were expensive new.

The value of the car maybe have depreciated a lot, but the cost of repairs don't.


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## andy665 (Nov 1, 2005)

Kerr said:


> The bottom line is you'll never avoid big bills driving big engined cars that were expensive new.
> 
> The value of the car maybe have depreciated a lot, but the cost of repairs don't.


I agree but its about weighing up the balance of probability, parts prices etc

My S Type (to me) feels more special to an E46 M3, was half the price to insure, general consumable parts prices are generally lower, servicing costs are a little lower and the number of (potential) known issues were less

Whilst not necessarily a cheap car to run I was able to justify the Jag on a way I couldn't justify the M3


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## Alex_225 (Feb 7, 2008)

I'm certainly doing my homework on these cars and I'm certainly not expecting Renault running costs on a car that was £50k+ to buy when new. 

At the same time it's a case of weighing up the likelihood of having a huge bill which of course I'd like to avoid but by doing my homework first I hope to minimise the chances of. I also have a friend who's a big M car fan and owner who I'll be gathering advice from.

Also, I would be inclined to look into 3rd party warranties as well although have heard that sometimes what you can claim on them is limited and they're not worth what they should be!? 

Admittedly I'd only be doing 6k a year in one and I'm not exactly hard on my cars but nonetheless I don't want to buy into a world of car misery! haha


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## Alex_225 (Feb 7, 2008)

Well I think I'm gonna have to rule out the V10 M cars for now. Having done some reading up and speaking to people it seems there is high likelihood of landing a monster repair bill at some point. I don't want to feel like I'm driving a financial time bomb. Am I being over cautious?

Ideally I'd like an E39 M5 which is the model I've heard from previous owners was one of the best M cars and reliable. Only thing with this model is obviously buying an older car so higher mileage than I'd have thought to go for. Bearing in mind my last car to have over 50k on the clock was a £650 Renault 5!! I think that's perhaps the wrong mentality though considering how well German cars wear their miles.


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## Cookies (Dec 10, 2008)

Alex,

The e39 is one of those bullet proof cars that will just keep going, a bit like the w124 mercs. 

A good friend just bought an e39 530d m sport with 170k on it. It's like new!!!! Drives beautifully and pulls like a train. Best part was that it was less than 3 grand lol. 

A whole lot of car for the money, and a future classic I'd reckon. 

Cooks


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## RisingPower (Sep 21, 2007)

Cookies said:


> Alex,
> 
> The e39 is one of those bullet proof cars that will just keep going, a bit like the w124 mercs.
> 
> ...


I thought the e39 m5 incurred more costs than the e46 m3 and was pretty much the same in terms of reliability.

I don't know why people think a car costing >60k to buy will be cheap to run?


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## neilb62 (Jul 30, 2007)

The M5 is cheaper to service than the M3 (hydraulic lifters as against bucket and shim) and also doesn't have SMG issues (should you make that choice on the M3) Nicer one's seem to be harder to find and of course running and general maintenance cost can be heavy. Not helped by BMW's stupid parts prices. £114 for a expansion tank (M5) ffs! 
Like many cars there are cheaper ways of doing things to avoid BMW's "M-Tax" on parts its just a case of getting to know the car and similar E39/E46 models.


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## RisingPower (Sep 21, 2007)

neilb62 said:


> The M5 is cheaper to service than the M3 (hydraulic lifters as against bucket and shim) and also doesn't have SMG issues (should you make that choice on the M3) Nicer one's seem to be harder to find and of course running and general maintenance cost can be heavy. Not helped by BMW's stupid parts prices. £114 for a expansion tank (M5) ffs!
> Like many cars there are cheaper ways of doing things to avoid BMW's "M-Tax" on parts its just a case of getting to know the car and similar E39/E46 models.


Still has the vanos issues.


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## Alex_225 (Feb 7, 2008)

Have done a little reading up on the Vanos issues just to get an understanding. How much is that to put right? 

I'll be honest, I am still completely up in the air on which car to try and aim for!! :wall:

E63 M6 - My absolute favourite, love the looks, styling and obviously the performance appeals. As said you need a chunk of cash in the bank just in case and I am in that position but do I want that looming over me! 

E46 M3 - Love the way it looks, bit cheaper to own (I think!...maybe), plenty to choose from but will it blow me away performance wise coming from a 265bhp hot hatch? (owners please tell me) and does it have a chavvy image now? 

E39 M5 - This seems the sensible and cheapest or should I say potentially less costly option. They're classy looking sleepers and that certainly has it's appeal. My only grumble is that low mileage cars (50-60k) are creeping up so you're looking at prices around the £15k+ mark which seems a lot for a 12-15 year old car. 

I am in a position where I do have money aside should I need to repair any of the above cars, money I also keep aside for sensible things like stuff on my house!! haha Also I still have my Twingo 133 I can use should the M car be off the road at any point. 

A friend of mine said that he'd experienced the M5/M6 to be a frustrating car, great when you're giving it the beans but not that joyous for normal driving. That said he has a lot of exposure to amazing cars where perhaps I'd be able to forgive it's faults. 

I'm not sure I'm any clearer on deciding than when I started haha.


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## Starbuck88 (Nov 12, 2013)

Alex_225 said:


> Have done a little reading up on the Vanos issues just to get an understanding. How much is that to put right?
> 
> I'll be honest, I am still completely up in the air on which car to try and aim for!! :wall:
> 
> ...


I think with what you've just said and reading through the thread...

Get what you want. Life is short.

Any car, new or old could go bang any minute, I realise you want to minimise the chances of that but truth be told you can only do so much.

Pick which one will make you the happiest, whether it be the way it drives, sounds, looks, smells, feels, image if that's important and go for it.

If you're looking at the V10s, I've seen a few for sale that have had recent gearbox overhauls and clutches, so just get one that's been well looked after.


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## neilb62 (Jul 30, 2007)

RisingPower said:


> Still has the vanos issues.


The facelifts (post 2000) have an improved Vanos system that seems pretty well ok.
Plentiful oil changes seems to help too....


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## RisingPower (Sep 21, 2007)

neilb62 said:


> The facelifts (post 2000) have an improved Vanos system that seems pretty well ok.
> Plentiful oil changes seems to help too....


Yeah I think when I looked at them you'd have been insane to get an earlier one, there were still failures on the newer ones but less so. Of course when they did go, it was more expensive than on the m3.

It also wasn't what I expected from a big v8, it just had very little power until higher revs just like the m3, again, vanos. Also didn't like the way it felt compared to the m3.

With the e60 I can't believe at this age the running costs being too different to the buying costs.


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## Alex_225 (Feb 7, 2008)

Starbuck88 said:


> Get what you want. Life is short.


This is what I keep telling myself as well, based on that I'd have the M6 in a heartbeat. Love it's looks and that engine is just awesome.

The SMG box I've heard mixed things about but a friend of mine has an M3 with that gearbox and loves it. It seems people expect it to be like a DSG box and by the sounds of things, it's not. Its has different characteristics which take time to get used to and enjoy. Strangely it appeals to me that it's not a typical semi-auto! (until perhaps it costs me a fortune! haha)

Sensible option is the E46 M3 (running costs wise) but it has the least appeal to me, don't doubt it's performance one bit but sadly I'm not keen on the image.

The M6 is a dream car in terms of looks but my only worry is that the car is massive but the inside isn't. Admittedly I don't have my daughter in the back of the car more than once a month realistically but is it still impractical where the M5 would be?

I am aware that you need a chunk of cash aside for any unforeseen repairs. At 33 I'm in a position to pay out should I need too but of course I'd rather not. I'd be doing about £5k but provided I pull my finger out and re-tax my RS Twingo that would make more sense for short journeys anyway.

Another factor is that when you look at the prices, for £15k+ you can get an E46 M3 with £40-50k on the clock, for around the same money you can see M5/6s with similar mileage.

The E39 may be the clever choice in terms of residuals but it's cool but not ticking my boxes like I initially thought.

Got a month or so before I'm on the hunt but it's looking like SMG M5/6 is winning. Remind me of this in 6 months time haha.


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## Luke M (Jul 1, 2013)

Alex_225 said:


> Have done a little reading up on the Vanos issues just to get an understanding. How much is that to put right?


I have a 2002 e39 530i which has the twin vanos.
New seals and bearing housing were fifty quid. 
Cost of fitting them I can't really help with. A good friend is a self employed mechanic with his own premises. 
I bought the parts and he charged me 300 to fit, service and filters and replace the leaky rocker gasket.


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## robertdon777 (Nov 3, 2005)

No an e46 M3 won't feel fast after a 265bhp turboed hot hatch.

It is still a rapid car, but they don't have the turbo punch. I only ever drove a SMG cab one though. Good cars though so don't dismiss, take a good one for a drive.


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## Alex_225 (Feb 7, 2008)

That was a concern with the M3, I kind of forget how capable my car is. I take for granted 260odd bhp in a relatively light car. Plus it's mapped to feel punch so on boost it really moves.

Silly thing is you know when someone criticises certain characteristics of a car and you think, "that wouldn't phase me"? That's what the M6 does.

I'm award of the SMG costs or potential problems plus how they're not a normal auto. Also been told the power comes in high up in the revs, but then again you're not exactly short of power low down are you?? 

I have to be subjective, I'm going from a 10 year old French hot hatch go a 10 year old super saloon. There's compromises on both sides of that ownership!


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## horico (Jul 17, 2010)

I'll leave this here for now. Not got time to post something more detailed but have a read....


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## horico (Jul 17, 2010)

Ok, I have a minute to spare now!

I had the M3 above. It was as close to mint as you can get and envy thing needed was done. Over my time with it, I learned the following to consider if buying one (which I'm considering doing again, ironically vs a R26 to use as a track car but I digress!).

Immediately, I would consider around 12k in the current market to get a nice example with low mileage, maybe a little movement up or down but the decent ones are getting rarer now. I went to see a few before buying and you need to. I sold mine for 11k which was at the point the market started strengthening.

Smg v manual: if you prefer smg, do it. I would simply budget to replace the pump as it 'will' go rather than if IMO. You can refurbish them but I'm out of the loop on reliability - this is about £3-£600 depending on you doing v a specialist. See above for a decent price (not BMW) for a genuine part supplied by BMW fitted by my BmW indy. If I was buying again, I don't know what I'd go for. I Still have my old pump so I'd try a diy refurb if I got SMG. They actually drive ok but as said, they're not a DSG but you can finesse shifts quite well.

Coupe v vert: I had a vert, albeit with some good coilovers and it handled well if slightly heavier than the coupe. Next buy would be a coupe purely for change sake and possible track use. You'll never go mad on the road and verts are great when it's warm enough and the noise off the hedges on B roads is awesome!

Maintenance: a perfect buy would have recent brakes, although a BBK would be better. New tyres too but these aren't that expensive nowadays through tyreleader et al. Recent insp 2 would be nice along with a brake fluid change. Personally, I would never take a 10 yr old M3 to BMW. My indy guys are ex BMW master techs and care about their customers. More than a spotty trainee at BMW. Running in check should be at the right time and services done on time in the right order.

A warranty is about £60 a month iirc so might be worth it for peace of mind.

Mods: personally, I'd make sure all mods are reversible on a mint car and keep the old parts. A mint OEM M3 will only become rarer as time goes on and worth keeping that way or putting back to std. The usual keeping on top of things is the same for any car.

Probs loads of babble and forgot loads but hope that helps E46 wise.... I'd do it again anyway....


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## Alex_225 (Feb 7, 2008)

Thanks for taking the time to write that, really helpful mate.

I'm actually liking the idea of SMG boxes more and more just have to be aware of potential costs. Certainly got my eyes open on that front.


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## Starbuck88 (Nov 12, 2013)

Alex_225 said:


> Silly thing is you know when someone criticises certain characteristics of a car and you think, "that wouldn't phase me"? That's what the M6 does.





Alex_225 said:


> This is what I keep telling myself as well, based on that I'd have the M6 in a heartbeat. Love it's looks and that engine is just awesome.


You obviously want the M6. Get the M6. When it comes time to buy, pick the best one you can, like any of us would in order to make sure you get a nice one.

There you go, decision made :driver:

I hope you enjoy your M6!


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## Alex_225 (Feb 7, 2008)

Hahaha funnily enough it's the car I've been looking at all evening and decided I'm gonna hunt down the best I can.

£18k gets a 50k example but will all depend on previous repairs, servicing and condition.


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## Alex_225 (Feb 7, 2008)

After all the discussion and very helpful advice I have made an offer on a car and it's been accepted.

It was a model which I thought was out of my price bracket but an utterly mint example came up that's too good to miss.

It's not an M car though, so watch this space!


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## Starbuck88 (Nov 12, 2013)

Alex_225 said:


> After all the discussion and very helpful advice I have made an offer on a car and it's been accepted.
> 
> It was a model which I thought was out of my price bracket but an utterly mint example came up that's too good to miss.
> 
> It's not an M car though, so watch this space!


Part of me is disappointed you didn't get the M6.

However what you have purchased....I'm excited about.


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## Clancy (Jul 21, 2013)

Amg? Sl something I'm guessing at


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## Alex_225 (Feb 7, 2008)

Starbuck88 said:


> Part of me is disappointed you didn't get the M6.
> 
> However what you have purchased....I'm excited about.


Don't get me wrong, I do still love the way the M6 looks even with its quirks.

That said a friend of mine steered me in the direction of another coupé style car I didn't realise was within my budget. I knew of a mint on with 17k on the clock so stretched a little and and tying up all the odds and ends.

One little hint, it has a bigger engine than the M6!


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## CoOkIeMoNsTeR (Mar 6, 2011)

Is it a CLK 63?


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## Alex_225 (Feb 7, 2008)

CoOkIeMoNsTeR said:


> Is it a CLK 63?


No quite but not a million miles away.


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## CoOkIeMoNsTeR (Mar 6, 2011)

Is it a CL then? 55 or 63? Or a V12 one?


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## Alex_225 (Feb 7, 2008)

It's a 63 mate.


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## CoOkIeMoNsTeR (Mar 6, 2011)

I guessed right!  Where do I collect my prize? 

Very nice machine; when do we get to see it? They have come down to an affordable level these days and they still feel very expensive!


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## Alex_225 (Feb 7, 2008)

It's actually a CLS63 AMG mate so a four door but with Coupe looks. 

I've known the car for a while now and always loved it, fell into a price bracket I was prepared to stretch too. It's actually owned by the father in law of a good friend of mine who happens to be a professional (and excellent*) detailer so the car is spotless and only 17k on the clock! 

Cannot wait to pick it up!! 

*I know you're reading this!!!


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## CoOkIeMoNsTeR (Mar 6, 2011)

Ahh CLS  Lovely car those and being based on an E Class instead of the CL based on an S Class gives it handling prowess  4 doors too. Practical even haha. Can't wait to see it!


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## Alex_225 (Feb 7, 2008)

Thank you mate, I've loved it from the moment I saw it. Epic car and a safer bet than the V10 M cars for reliability. Hopefully!!


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

Sounds great. They are beasts.


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## Alex_225 (Feb 7, 2008)

Going to be a big contrast from driving a Megane 225 to day.


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## Starbuck88 (Nov 12, 2013)

I have to say the CLS is my favourite Mercedes ever. So I'm alright with you changing your mind from a M6 

I thought you meant CL which is a different kettle of fish, probably more a grand tourer/luxo barge coupe than an aggressive sports saloon.


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## Bero (Mar 9, 2008)

Very nice and rare car.....oh, and the noise, lots and lots of lovely noise!


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## millns84 (Jul 5, 2009)

Lovely cars, congratulations 

You will absolutely love the fuel consumption :lol:


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## Bero (Mar 9, 2008)

millns84 said:


> Lovely cars, congratulations
> 
> You *The local Shell station* will absolutely love the fuel consumption :lol:


Fixed that for you :thumb:


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## robertdon777 (Nov 3, 2005)

Great car, probably better than the M6 too if truth be told at doing what a Big Fast car should...go fast in comfort and handle well for the size.


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## Alex_225 (Feb 7, 2008)

I think the M6 would have been a heart over head buy and potentially ruinous financially. Still love how it looks.

But the CLS is just as handsome, four doors which is why I toyed the idea of an M5 but with less reliability concerns! 

Fuel wise though, it still won't be cheap but at least it does have a proper size fuel tank haha


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