# Wet sanding by Mirka air sander



## L200 Steve

Epoch called over to mine today with his new (and rather complete) Mirka wet sanding kit.

Craigsax called in with his Saxo to see if we could improve on the orange peel of his bonnet.

Using both 2000 and 4000 grit Mirka Abralon pads on Epoch's Mirka sander using a Megs 00 mix as lube, we removed the minimum amount of paint to improve the orange peel effect.

The sanding was followed up by rotary polishing, using pads by Meguiar's, machines by Milwaukee and Rupee's and polishes by both Meguiar's and Menzerna.

The bonnet then HD cleansed, followed by a coat of the new and rather good Rubbish Boy's wax.

My first impressions - This is the future. The improvement in gloss over normal polishing needs t be seen in the flesh to be believed, plus it makes wet sanding so simple and so safe.

Here's a little taster video of us in action, I shot nearly 3 1/2 hours of video today, so expect a few more wet sanding video's pretty soon

The vid - 




Big thanks to Epoch for the vinegar:thumb:


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## Mucky

looks nice steve 
i have used these before and they work wonders

make you think its easyer to wet flat then polish back every car?


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## Alex L

That looks great


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## Detail My Ride

Very Cool. :thumb:


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## Epoch

Well as Steve said first outing with the air sanders today and i'm very impressed, made a lot of difference in a relativley small space of time.

I have some pictures but i'll start to upload tonight and see how i get on.

A very enjoyable day

Big thanks to Craig for the use of his OP bonnet today. Certainly a little scary, but came more than good in the end. Hope you enjoy the RBOE.

Also thanks to Steve for teaching me the uses of old plastic toilet seats and how to produce sags, runs, orange peel, speckles, striping and all other possible mistakes with a spray gun. I seemed to master those all quite quickly I need now just to get the paint on flat and we'll be OK.


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## matt

That is the dogs Steve!!!! Love it! John will the kit be on hand for inspection tomorrow?

Matt :wave:


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## L200 Steve

Epoch said:


> Also thanks to Steve for teaching me the uses of old plastic toilet seats and how to produce sags, runs, orange peel, speckles, striping and all other possible mistakes with a spray gun. I seemed to master those all quite quickly I need now just to get the paint on flat and we'll be OK.


Alway's a pleasure :wave:

If you ever fancy a job as a paint sprayer mate, give me a call


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## L200 Steve

matt said:


> That is the dogs Steve!!!! Love it! John will the kit be on hand for inspection tomorrow?
> 
> Matt :wave:


I'm tempted to buy one for myself Matt mate, it just makes the whole job so easy. I think that it'll be on display tomorrow, might even get a run out.


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## matt

Yay!!


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## BIG BAVARIAN

great vid steve,sounds like the compressor was chasing it's **** though ,those air powered da's use a large volume of air (cfm wise)might i suggest a bigger air receiver and thicker hose(we had the same trouble when i was spraying) and nice kit jon :thumb: :thumb: :wave: :wave:


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## Ant GTI-6

Wow thats some bit of kit, would like to see that in action.

Looking foward to tomorrow now, superb finish


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## matt

Look forward to having a catch up with you tomorrow Ant :thumb: :wave:


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## Epoch

BIG BAVARIAN said:


> sounds like the compressor was chasing it's **** though


Oh yes, it's only a liitle one (25 ltr) but judging buy the air consumption you'd need a 250 ltr tank to get a few mins on the sander before refil.

After seeing the four compressor load balanced setup on the factory i now want one of those in my proposed garage. STeve took me out to one of the specialist shops in Bradford, I could have spent a fortune (and need a larger gargae than the one proposed).


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## BIG BAVARIAN

just out of curiosity,how much clear was removed in what time scale as opposed to machine polishing alone ?


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## BIG BAVARIAN

Epoch said:


> Oh yes, it's only a liitle one (25 ltr) but judging buy the air consumption you'd need a 250 ltr tank to get a few mins on the sander before refil.
> 
> After seeing the four compressor load balanced setup on the factory i now want one of those in my proposed garage. STeve took me out to one of the specialist shops in Bradford, I could have spent a fortune (and need a larger gargae than the one proposed).


was it thomas wrights by any chance ?


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## Epoch

I think it was called Thorite

I have a huge catalogue to read through all the shiny things i'm gonna need )


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## BIG BAVARIAN

Epoch said:


> I think it was called Thorite
> 
> I have a huge catalogue to read through all the shiny things i'm gonna need )


yep that's the place :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: (that's there abbreviation)


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## Epoch

BIG BAVARIAN said:


> just out of curiosity,how much clear was removed in what time scale as opposed to machine polishing alone ?


On the gauge after four passes (i.e up and down follow by left to right then repeat) with a 2000 disk it was removing about 3 to 4 micron on the test square. Quite impressive as i'd have though it could have taken a lot more.

Due to the flat unflexing nature of the disk it removes the peaks and troughs bringing the whole section down to the same, then we switched to the 4000 just to lift the 2000 marks.


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## BIG BAVARIAN

that's very impressive,should speed up a full paint correction in a breath (no wonder paul (miracle) uses one !!) how does it perform over sharp swage lines,does the backing pad flex enough ?


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## Mr Singh

Glad to see you guys like the finish of wetsanding.


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## Epoch

Some pics from me

Couple of befores



















Recent repray gave an average bonet thickness of around 230 to 240 microns










Out with the 2000 for a test square










Uuummmmm










This test polished out with the desired results so on to the whole bonnet. This shows the finish after 4000 grit










Steve on the Milwakee










After an application of HD Cleanse. It was out with the Rubbish Boy's Original Edition










Then the result










All in all a good first outing


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## Epoch

BIG BAVARIAN said:


> that's very impressive,should speed up a full paint correction in a breath (no wonder paul (miracle) uses one !!) how does it perform over sharp swage lines,does the backing pad flex enough ?


The pads are the Abrilon system and have about 5mm of foam on them. Thats the only flex but it wasn't so bad. You would have to be cautious.


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## Phil H

do you have a close up of the bonnet to show the change in orange peel? I know PD uses this bit of kit i think his has a water feed aswell. 
Excellent bit of kit though! and awesome vid


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## Epoch

Only by daylight on my Camera

Before










After










No need for the water feed really as the pads hold a lot of water themselves


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## megaboost

Get it warmed up, I suspect it could be busy tomorrow


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## L200 Steve

Epoch said:


> The pads are the Abrilon system and have about 5mm of foam on them. Thats the only flex but it wasn't so bad. You would have to be cautious.


I guess that we could have gone with a 3m intermediate pad between the dics and the sander if needed.

For a first run out with this bit of kit today I can already see that it has a huge potential in the right hands / on the right job.

You can get a consistent reduction in thickness over a set area with a lot more ease than any polisher that I have used to date.

I do feel that caution should be used though to prevent sand through.


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## Alex L

Wanna do a whole car and see how it goes?????


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## Phil H

a nice improvment in orange peel there


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## L200 Steve

Epoch said:


> No need for the water feed really as the pads hold a lot of water themselves


That really suprised me Jon - Did I see you wringing out the pads at the end?

I know that we talked about water feed etc before you bought these models, but I realy don't think that you need all the hassles of the extra piping. he spray with Megs #00 solution seemed to do the trick.

The other bit that suprised me was just how 'flat' the paint looked after sanding, almost like we'd painted it with some grey paint. It was pretty easy to see when the surface OP had gone.


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## ryanuk

great vid and great work!


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## Phil H

so will this become the norm in your details? as the majority of cars have orange peel to some degree


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## L200 Steve

Phil H said:


> so will this become the norm in your details? as the majority of cars have orange peel to some degree


I thought that this would be more of a tool for the major defect removal jobs, the ones that take many hits of IP etc to get right. If IP3.02 doesn't get it in one, then it has to be quicker / safer to use the Mirka to do the defect removal then follow up with 106FA etc. This has got to allow a higher standard of turnaround in a detail without taking excesive time. Plus the total reduction in thickness is more controllable.


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## rubbishboy

Very impressive guys, I was looking forward to seing that mirka kit in action ever since Jon posted up the pictures of it. :thumb: It seemed to only take a couple of minutes to do the whole bonnet.


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## Phil H

L200 Steve said:


> I thought that this would be more of a tool for the major defect removal jobs, the ones that take many hits of IP etc to get right. If IP3.02 doesn't get it in one, then it has to be quicker / safer to use the Mirka to do the defect removal then follow up with 106FA etc. This has got to allow a higher standard of turnaround in a detail without taking excesive time. Plus the total reduction in thickness is more controllable.


Agree it is a much safer option plus your not creating excessive heat trying to remove defects at higher speeds with a rotary.


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## CK888

Wow that's impressive watching it in action


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## Neil_S

Fascinating! I cannot wait to see this, sort of takes things to a new level


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## Guest

Very interesting. What amazed me was how long you actually sanded for and still only removed 3-4um!


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## Auto Finesse

good to see some one got the balls to do it i have used that method for quite a time now, i have done quite a few full car wet flats mainly on show cars or cars that have had body kits and stuff fitted so its a mare to tell whats what with paint. its trickier when you have trim and handels cos you end up with a lovely smooth pannel and the the OP along a couple of mill around the trim or what ever..... then its back to the old hand sand..... is that a long stroke sander?? aparently they are less prone to leaving DA "tails" i have both types (just got the long stroke last week) but still see no significant difference between them...............


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## Epoch

james b said:


> ..... is that a long stroke sander?? aparently they are less prone to leaving DA "tails" i have both types (just got the long stroke last week) but still see no significant difference between them...............


It's a 2.5mm stroke (the shorter one i think). I was advised to get the shorter one for Wet Sanding only and the longer one if i wanted to polish with it as well!

Might have been wrong though


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## Auto Finesse

^^ i dont know mate i have been told so many different thing by different people, one says this one says that.... so now i brought both and to see for my self but there is not really any difference IMO maybe the real test will come on softer paint but all i seem to be doing is hard paint .

Good luck with it ... i will send you a PM in he week of a good supplier of DA discs and stuff might be worth a look


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## Finerdetails

great vid and read


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## GlynRS2

A superb job and a great vid 

I guess we will be seeing a lot more of this in the future - taking paint correction to a whole new level :thumb:


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## Bigpikle

wow - that looks impressive!

After all the grief I'm getting trying to get the finish I want with the UDM I'd love someone with the skills to try that for me.....

One question on OP - I would have thought that the OP was in the base colour layer, so how does sanding back the clear make such a difference? Surely the finish from underneath still shows through?

thanks


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## Mr Singh

Bigpikle said:


> wow - that looks impressive!
> 
> After all the grief I'm getting trying to get the finish I want with the UDM I'd love someone with the skills to try that for me.....
> 
> One question on OP - I would have thought that the OP was in the base colour layer, so how does sanding back the clear make such a difference? Surely the finish from underneath still shows through?
> 
> thanks


It depends. But normally whatever is ontop is causing the OP. I.e. Clear ontop of Base. Or in my case single stage.

These guys have a relative luxury over how i did it on my lexus 2yrs ago, but this method with the Mirka really is the best way to go.. That or wet/dry discs with the porter cable 

Way to go though guys, thrilled that people are seeing the benefits


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## Ducky

Bigpikle said:


> wow - that looks impressive!
> 
> After all the grief I'm getting trying to get the finish I want with the UDM I'd love someone with the skills to try that for me.....
> 
> One question on OP - I would have thought that the OP was in the base colour layer, so how does sanding back the clear make such a difference? Surely the finish from underneath still shows through?
> 
> thanks


My taking is the OP are like ripples in the base paint, which are shown in the clear coat as it settles into those ripples in the base when it's applied. Sanding down the clear efectivitely removes the ripples and provides the smoother look.

I'm not very good at explaining it though  but impressive looking too they used, bloody noisy as well!


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## Bigpikle

Mr Singh said:


> It depends. But normally whatever is ontop is causing the OP. I.e. Clear ontop of Base. Or in my case single stage.
> 
> These guys have a relative luxury over how i did it on my lexus 2yrs ago, but this method with the Mirka really is the best way to go.. That or wet/dry discs with the porter cable
> 
> Way to go though guys, thrilled that people are seeing the benefits


I remember reading your thread and wondering if you were mad :doublesho

I have SS on my old 69 MGB, and the lower panels are particularly bad close-up. Not brave enough to try wet sanding but am making a bit of a difference with a couple of hits with Meg 83 and a cutting pad on the UDM.


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## Neil_S

Saw this in the flesh today, very impressive bit of kit, makes wet sanding appear effortless.

The pads are very good, seems like they would last a good time too, well built and robust, just like the machines.

The wetsanding marks were extremely uniform which was great, didn't appear to instill any deeper lines like you can get when hand sanding.

Impressive, just wish you didn't have to cart around a bloody great compressor with you!


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## Epoch

james b said:


> Good luck with it ... i will send you a PM in he week of a good supplier of DA discs and stuff might be worth a look


Thanks


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## L200 Steve

Got a 2nd chance to try the Mirka out today.

We spent just a little longer with the 4000 grit getting the area ready for polishing. The area seemed a lot easier to polish out afterwards by getting the 4000 grit stage right.

I'm looking forward to being a little more destructive next time I get to use this, and hopefully on some single stage paint.


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## matt

Yeah, having seen this kit in action im mighty impressed. I just couldnt believe how perfectly uniform the sanded area was. No highs and lows like you would expect with hand sanding. Brilliant piece of kit!! :thumb:


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## L200 Steve

It'd be good to see how it deals with sanding out touch up repairs. The large flat area of the sanding disc should leave a very uniform finish behind after flattening back the touch up.


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## Neil_S

That'd be great to hear about Steve :thumb:


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## matt

I'll pop back up whenever your free Steve ive got the Guinea pig here, just a shame i couldnt of brought it up today.


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## Craigsax

Would just like to say a BIG thank you to Steve and epoch, your very good teachers, i learned a fair bit on Saturday, and the results speak for them selves, wet sanding really is the way to go to receiving perfection.


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## Breezy

excellent work so is the air driven sander quite powerful then? I've recently used the 2000 grit abralon pads to remove a bit of peel on a few panels I used the pads dry on speed 2 with the PC although I think adding some water might make it a bit easier i've been following the 2000 grit with 3000 3M trizact discs then Menz Powergloss via the Makita.... also suprised at how little clearcoat it removes and excellent results!


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## Affection to Detail

Posted a question on here yesterday, was getting Error 500's and obv it didnt appear.

Question was do you find the Mirka has any benefit over an electric RO or an Air Driven DA apart from the water injection bit?

Used these pads on both, just wondering if the Mirka is worth it or sticking with what I have.

Never thought about using the PC though!


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## Guest

Arrr the pig tails, what new Astons come with fresh from the factory!


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## s-line

Good to see you've had good results from machine wet sanding. I have been experimenting with the SIAAIR sanding pads for quite a while now, and its been a pleasure to polish the paint back up and the finish it leaves is definatly a few levels above a usual machine polish.

had some scratches on a bumper:

















after a PC the appearance was improved:









after a closer inspection deep marks still remained:

















sanding pad on the PC:









QD the area:









one pass:









used the 2000grit and then followed up with 3000:









polished up:




































some other machine sanding work:

before:









during:









after:









and another 50/50:


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## L200 Steve

rallymad_nad said:


> Posted a question on here yesterday, was getting Error 500's and obv it didnt appear.
> 
> Question was do you find the Mirka has any benefit over an electric RO or an Air Driven DA apart from the water injection bit?
> 
> Used these pads on both, just wondering if the Mirka is worth it or sticking with what I have.
> 
> Never thought about using the PC though!


The Mirka has got a really short throw, so you end up causing a lot less 'pig tails'.


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## Epoch

rallymad_nad said:


> Posted a question on here yesterday, was getting Error 500's and obv it didnt appear.
> 
> Question was do you find the Mirka has any benefit over an electric RO or an Air Driven DA apart from the water injection bit?
> 
> Used these pads on both, just wondering if the Mirka is worth it or sticking with what I have.
> 
> Never thought about using the PC though!


Advantage over the PC is WATER and AIR not a major problem

As Steve posted the throw is only 2.5mm but problably not much advantage over a air DA is you already have one


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## Epoch

Miracle said:


> Arrr the pig tails, what new Astons come with fresh from the factory!


So far when finishing with the 4000 we've been fairly successful at not leaving any.

Although some initail test patches did show signs around the edges where we hadn't worked it evenly enough.


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## CleanYourCar

I should read all the post first 

I might ahve to have a go by PC now!


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## Epoch

You could, and others have depends on the throw of the PC really.


Don't use too much water either

If your gonna stock them Tim the cheapest i can find is £22.00 plus VAT for a box of 12


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## Affection to Detail

So is it best to steer clear of the random action and stick with a pure rotary motion?

I assumed that a random action would give a better finish but I can understand the comment out pig tails etc being an issue.

I have a plethora (sp) of compressors and air tools, never seen one having the benefit over another, except when using water.

Electric version would save having to lug around a compressor though. Will give a few more options a try. Dont think any of my electric versions have a pure rotary function on them though.

What sort of rpm etc does the Mirka run at?

Any more input welcome.


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## Epoch

^^ No you do need DA 

If you have too much motion it can cause large arcs around the edge. So you want a small throw DA action for finner sanding.

Splashing the water about is the only benefit with the priciple.


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## talisman

is it possible to have a few links posted up for few suppliers please???........


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## L200 Steve

rallymad_nad said:


> So is it best to steer clear of the random action and stick with a pure rotary motion?
> 
> I assumed that a random action would give a better finish but I can understand the comment out pig tails etc being an issue.
> 
> I have a plethora (sp) of compressors and air tools, never seen one having the benefit over another, except when using water.
> 
> Electric version would save having to lug around a compressor though. Will give a few more options a try. Dont think any of my electric versions have a pure rotary function on them though.
> 
> What sort of rpm etc does the Mirka run at?
> 
> Any more input welcome.


I feel that the short throw of the Mirka is the way forward in comparision to the much longer throw of certain R/O sanders (the PC included).

From experience of sanding many different coatings over the years with various items of equipment, I've come to the conclusion that the longer the throw of the random orbit, the better the tool is suited to the more aggresive of abrasives. I know that the PC is good at removing large quantities of paint when used with 60 grit discs:thumb:

The speed of the Mirka is fully adjustable, similar to the PC. Jon and I only ran it on the lower end of the speed range, though I do feel that the quality of finish left would improve by running the machine at a higher speed. This is something that I would like to try next time I use Jon's machine.

I think that the random orbital action of the Mirka suits the finish better than a rotary action would. I've seen people dressing aluminium sheet using a rotary sander, leaving behind a shell effect. Same again though, I'm interested in trying out this theory first chance that I get. I know that you can get those little 4" air rotaries from Farcela etc for next to nothing.


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## Epoch

^^^ I'm gonna need a bigger compressor then!!!


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## Auto Finesse

steev the fracla polishers are random orbital i have one they are good for small parts like bumper grills ... i have just got a full size air roto to im only just getting used to it but it is so much lighter than a lecy one.... only thing is you need a big air comp to run two full time i have a hudravaine its huge and can run loads of stuff at the same time 

i have the fracla rep coming to the place where i work soon to show so new kit and stuff might be interesting, or not


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## Craigsax

looks like the Rubbish boys original edition, is doing pretty well john....










A coat was applied to the bonnet


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## Epoch

Cheers for the pic Craig

No disrespect to Ben but it is a good wax, not just for a home made one

Keep us updated!


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## rubbishboy

Epoch said:


> Cheers for the pic Craig
> 
> No disrespect to Ben but it is a good wax, not just for a home made one
> 
> Keep us updated!


:thumb: Thanks Jon.


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## ianFRST

interesting....

i did a bonnet with about 25+ stone chips on last weekend, took me ageeees to wet sand them all down :lol: 

not sure if id have the confidence to use one of them tho :doublesho


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## Epoch

ianFRST said:


> interesting....
> 
> i did a bonnet with about 25+ stone chips on last weekend, took me ageeees to wet sand them all down :lol:
> 
> not sure if id have the confidence to use one of them tho :doublesho


I'd honestly say it's safer than by hand, even defined motion and pad surface area.

The three inch machine will be better for spot sanding, but i haven't tried this yet.


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## Neil_S

Epoch said:


> I'd honestly say it's safer than by hand, even defined motion and pad surface area.
> 
> The three inch machine will be better for spot sanding, but i haven't tried this yet.


Having seen it in action I would heartily agree, the finish from the sander is so uniform too, I guess you should not run into a less than perfect finish from hand sanding so you have a go at sanding some more.


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## Breezy

The Abralon pads a really good and give an excellent even finish I also used the 3M Trizact 3000 grit discs when removing a bit of orange peel from my car after it came back form the bodyshop I used the pads dry with the PC at speed 2

PC armed with the 3M Trizact disc










Rear 1/4 & Door flattend after 2000 grit and then 3000 grit discs



















Front N/S Wing Flattend



















After 1 hit of Menzerna Powergloss on the rotary up to 1700rpm










After Menzerna Intensive Polish (PO85RD 3.02 & a blob of PO106FF)



















I always end up inflicting some scratches when wetsnading by hand that are a bugger to remove but this wasnt the case with machine sanding


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## darbyweb

Were did you get the 3M Trizact discs for the PC if you dont mind me asking  



Dean.


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## Epoch

I have the NW Mirka rep comming to mine to do a demonstration of the air sanders and their new polishes next week.

I'll let you all know what extra i learn and if the polishes are any good.


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## ianFRST

got any links for these items epoch?


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## Epoch

www.smartexpress.co.uk is where i got mine cheapest i could find.


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## Affection to Detail

I'll get on and test out all my sanders, see if I can work out what throw they all are.

That way may save having to shell out. Never had an issue before but then never used them above 2000grit!


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## Breezy

darbyweb said:


> Were did you get the 3M Trizact discs for the PC if you dont mind me asking
> 
> Dean.


I got them from my local 3M supplier mate you can get them from any brown brothers too


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## ianFRST

Epoch said:


> www.smartexpress.co.uk is where i got mine cheapest i could find.


i presume you got the kit? and the smaller of the 2 sanders? i think id only ever use the 2000 + 4000 if i was to get one, so what are you going to do with all the other discs :lol:

i think my mate has the bigger of them sanders, so might see if he can demo it to me


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## Epoch

I bought a 6 inch sander and the Abrilon in 2 and 4 thousand

and also the mini kit 3 inch) which was on special offer for £140 plus vat in September

THe other pads will be used for sanding in the house


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## L200 Steve

Epoch said:


> I bought a 6 inch sander and the Abrilon in 2 and 4 thousand
> 
> and also the mini kit 3 inch) which was on special offer for £140 plus vat in September
> 
> THe other pads will be used for sanding in the house


I'd like to use these to teach myself SMART repairs mate:thumb: (big hint )

We'll see what happens next week hey?


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## Epoch

The Mule has a few chips (i mean 5mm holes in the bonnet) if you fancy attacking that.

It must be Ford Panther black (i think thats the only black ford did on the fiesta MK4) i get a touch up stick from Ford this weekend if you fancy a try on that.

Once the Mule is done you're more than welcome to borrow them mate i'll be insulating my detailing bay through the winter!


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## Clark @ PB

I defenitely want to have a closer look at one of these in action, havent tried anything new for ages!


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## L200 Steve

Clark said:


> I defenitely want to have a closer look at one of these in action, havent tried anything new for ages!


You need to get the Mirka rep to pay you a visit mate:thumb:

I think once you've seen the potential, you'll add one to your kit.

I'm really looking forward to doing some serious removal with Jon's to see how far we can take this. Exciting times ahead.


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## Clark @ PB

L200 Steve said:


> You need to get the Mirka rep to pay you a visit mate:thumb:
> 
> I think once you've seen the potential, you'll add one to your kit.
> 
> I'm really looking forward to doing some serious removal with Jon's to see how far we can take this. Exciting times ahead.


definitely, we have a customer wanting his car entirely sanded to remove all the orange peel for show season next year so this is looking quite promising


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## Offyourmarks

fantastic thread - pushing the bar right up there - great inspiration, especially when improved quality and reduced time is on offer. great post guys.


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## Rich @ PB

Agree with Matt - brilliant contribution to the forum, looks like we need to get the PB wallet out!


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## Dream Machines

awesome stuff. I just read about air driven wetsand system on Polished Bliss website and I might have to take a look at getting that setup in the future

I have a different approach to orange peel - I permanently bury it without removing any paint.
The product costs a few hundred dollars per litre but doesn't just bury orange peel.


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## KleenChris

Dream Machines said:


> awesome stuff. I just read about air driven wetsand system on Polished Bliss website and I might have to take a look at getting that setup in the future
> 
> I have a different approach to orange peel - I permanently bury it without removing any paint.
> The product costs a few hundred dollars per litre but doesn't just bury orange peel.


Any more info on what you use ?


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## S63

KleenChris said:


> Any more info on what you use ?


I'd like to know too:thumb:


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