# Legit cannot keep my panther black FiST SWIRL FREE!!



## MonsterST (Aug 4, 2013)

Now some background. 

I owned a ST500 for over a year and that's where I got into detailing. Started off with the usual cheap mitt, one bucket and autoglym stuff.

Fast forward to now I've owned my FiST 63 plate from new and I follow all detailing commandments and have spent a fair few bit on quality stuff over time.

No matter what I do or how careful I am the car gets swirled to ****! I swear it's like my paint is so so so soft. You can literally touch it with your finger and watch it swirl up. 

Wheels first with dedicated tools ONLY for wheels, tyres and arches.
Pre washes always. 
TBM Always.
Quality shampoo with TWO wash mitts, actually using two scythes. One for upper half of car and one for the lower half. 
Dry using premium towels (mammoth, reaper etc) also use blower on occasions. Car is always well protected so most water sheets off which leaves very little to dab around lightly with the towels.

I apply any products with again quality foam or microfibre pads. I am never too heavy handed and almost try to glide along.


Got to be a secret somewhere, panther black, or black car owners in general WHAT'S YOUR SECRET lol?


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## MonsterST (Aug 4, 2013)

This is with my autobrites, DA21 and their low cut polish RENEW


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## MonsterST (Aug 4, 2013)




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## MonsterST (Aug 4, 2013)

Here was last weekends antics at the rear using a white foam pad with RENEW. Not looking to 100% correct just tidy up and remove as little as possible to leave room for future corrections.


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## Kimo (Jun 7, 2013)

When you polish, are you removing the oils?


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## steve from wath (Dec 12, 2008)

first i would look at the lighting you are using to assess , if you have corrected

i mean , you need to asses the paint with halide lighting etc to fully see the swirls in the first place
then remove them , with your chosen products

only then will you see if you have in fact removed the swirls totally in the first place

then i would look at a ceramic coating to protect the corrected paint and to give it the best protection you can

your methods seem fine to me


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## MonsterST (Aug 4, 2013)

Kimo said:


> When you polish, are you removing the oils?


Yes use IPA before and after when I am correcting. Not when just using a normal polish like SRP.



steve from wath said:


> first i would look at the lighting you are using to assess , if you have corrected
> 
> i mean , you need to asses the paint with halide lighting etc to fully see the swirls in the first place
> then remove them , with your chosen products
> ...


Forgetting the lighting for correcting. I can clearly see the car looks awful once the full sun hits it and over the months/years you just notice it get worse!!

Ceramic coating does sound great, pricey and not something I could do myself as have no access for an indoor area.

Sort of wish I got a clear wrap when car was new lol.


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## Soul boy 68 (Sep 8, 2013)

Black is not the easiest of colours to keep swirl free because of the colour itself. I have a similar problem on my cars black roof, not as bad though, I would wait until the spring to give it a full correction, IMO I would not bother at this time of the year with all the crap weather and contaminants a car will pick up. Just out of curiosity, are you giving your car a really good PW rinse and do you snow foam shampoo and leave on your car then wash using your wash mitt? The more lube on your car the more slicker the mitt will glide over the cars paintwork. As already said above, these will help.


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## R88ORY RXP (Dec 15, 2011)

I think Steve is spot on! You need to confirm that you have indeed removed the issues and not just filled them, then one of the ceramic coatings will provide a tough shell to your paintwork.

It when I see this that im pleased i have hard paint, although you have to really go at it to correct it, it stays good once done.


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## Horatio (Oct 30, 2011)

Soft paint maybe?
http://www.environmentalleader.com/2013/04/04/ford-expands-co2-cutting-paint-process/

Trying to keep a daily driver swirl free is impossible.


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## R88ORY RXP (Dec 15, 2011)

MonsterST said:


> Yes use IPA before and after when I am correcting. Not when just using a normal polish like SRP.
> 
> Forgetting the lighting for correcting. I can clearly see the car looks awful once the full sun hits it and over the months/years you just notice it get worse!!
> 
> ...


Clear wraps are even softer.. They marr very easily. Great for front bumpers, not so good for the whole car.


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## MonsterST (Aug 4, 2013)

Soul boy 68 said:


> Black is not the easiest of colours to keep swirl free because of the colour itself. I have a similar problem on my cars black roof, not as bad though, I would wait until the spring to give it a full correction, IMO I would not bother at this time of the year with all the crap weather and contaminants a car will pick up. Just out of curiosity, are you given your car a really good PW rinse and do you snow foam shampoo and leave on your car then wash using your wash mitt? The more lube on your car the more slicker the mitt will glide over the cars paintwork. As already said above, these will help.


I usually prewash and then snow foam, iron x and a tar remover if and when needed.



R88ORY RXP said:


> I think Steve is spot on! You need to confirm that you have indeed removed the issues and not just filled them, then one of the ceramic coatings will provide a tough shell to your paintwork.
> 
> It when I see this that im pleased i have hard paint, although you have to really go at it to correct it, it stays good once done.


Yeah I understand but it's a new car and I only ever wash it so somewhere along the line it is picking up swirls!

I haven't properly gone about correcting it, I only ever improve because I have only had the DA a year and still cannot wash without inflicting swirls I am not ready to fully correct the car to only have to do it again at some point.

Just enjoy playing the DA getting to gripes with it, why I use a low cut product like RENEW. Just until I get better experience with it!


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## great gonzo (Nov 4, 2010)

I had similar problems maintaining my black car which was heavily used every day. I converted to using a glaze every 4th wash and a wax to seal it in, then I would do light correction twice a year. That would just keep on top of things. 

Gonz.


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## MonsterST (Aug 4, 2013)

Yeah I have no doubt the paint is so so soft. As said previously in the sun I have even watched pretty soft towels marr the paint when a little too much pressure applied it's madness.


I opted for a glaze too, autobrites brilliance is fantastic as filling in the swirls, topped with soft 99 KOG and usually use Sonax QD to aid drying and as a protection top up between big washes as it aids some amazing protection. 

But glazes just don't last long enough imo for a daily driver anyways lol.

Glad to hear others have similar problems. Defo thought I'd be able to keep them more at bay though, especially with the time, effort and money I spend on detailing.


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## chewy_ (Mar 5, 2014)

MonsterST said:


> Got to be a secret somewhere, panther black, or black car owners in general WHAT'S YOUR SECRET lol?


No secret I'm afraid. I have a black car the same as you, the swirls build up after each wash. Not a lot can be done except regular polishing every couple of weeks to keep on top of it.


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## Scrim-1- (Oct 8, 2008)

Where are you based.


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## sean ryan (May 10, 2015)

I feel your pain buddy im in the same boat,
I drive a 54 plate Vauxhall Zafira Tourer Sri 165 also in black. 
We bought it new for the school run & tesco ect & it's a nightmare iv'e tried everything and spent a fortune on it Meg's 105 & 205 Scholl S20 Black CG Hex Logic Pad's Scholl Blue & White Spider Pad's different shampoo's different Polishes different Glaze's ect and no matter how great i get the paint light scratches and swirl's alway's come back so now after i wash the car i dry it with the blower then apply a glaze then a spray wax and that has sorted it out and it was something i found out on my own & i really hope this help's you out buddy


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## R88ORY RXP (Dec 15, 2011)

I would try and acertain at what point the swirs are happening, is it washing or more likey the drying process thats causing it??

It does sound like your doing everything right, and my bro in laws fiesta is no different, its as soft as butter...

You could consider a 0ppm filter for rinsing and see if you can get away with not drying it, open ended hose to try and force the water to sheet off and leave any bits to dry naturally. This may not work on black but my pal at work never drys his grey audi and he gets a decent finish.


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## MonsterST (Aug 4, 2013)

chewy_ said:


> No secret I'm afraid. I have a black car the same as you, the swirls build up after each wash. Not a lot can be done except regular polishing every couple of weeks to keep on top of it.


Yeah but only so much correcting you can do isn't there sadly!



Scrim-1- said:


> Where are you based.


Kent bud.



sean ryan said:


> I feel your pain buddy im in the same boat,
> I drive a 54 plate Vauxhall Zafira Tourer Sri 165 also in black.
> We bought it new for the school run & tesco ect & it's a nightmare iv'e tried everything and spent a fortune on it Meg's 105 & 205 Scholl S20 Black CG Hex Logic Pad's Scholl Blue & White Spider Pad's different shampoo's different Polishes different Glaze's ect and no matter how great i get the paint light scratches and swirl's alway's come back so now after i wash the car i dry it with the blower then apply a glaze then a spray wax and that has sorted it out and it was something i found out on my own & i really hope this help's you out buddy


What spry wax and glaze mate? So do you think the drying was causing the marring.

This was my initial thought beginning of this year. But even after switching to blow drying 90% of the car and then getting the dribs and drabs with a towel no change.

Usually pooling the water off leaves very little to dry off anyways!


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## MonsterST (Aug 4, 2013)

R88ORY RXP said:


> I would try and acertain at what point the swirs are happening, is it washing or more likey the drying process thats causing it??
> 
> It does sound like your doing everything right, and my bro in laws fiesta is no different, its as soft as butter...
> 
> You could consider a 0ppm filter for rinsing and see if you can get away with not drying it, open ended hose to try and force the water to sheet off and leave any bits to dry naturally. This may not work on black but my pal at work never drys his grey audi and he gets a decent finish.


A DI vessel is on my to buy list, mostly for the summer as nightmare sometimes with the black paint even in the shade you can be cursed with water spots as the water is very hard here.

I am not sure where they are happening. I'd take a guess at drying, applying or buffing product off as I cannot see my wash mitts marring the paint.

But as said previously I also tried the blow dry and I am cautious about being too heavy handed when using products, using less is more, making sure my pads etc glide across.

Like everyone had a few nightmare moments where stuff wouldn't buff off, put in a bit of elbow grease etc but not enough to cause the marring I get!


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## MonsterST (Aug 4, 2013)

This was back in March when I was practicing with the DA. Again used a white pad with RENEW. Corrected it fairly well for what it was but was left with these, they move with the sun and I am guessing this was to do with my technique.

Like I corrected the swirls but maybe left behind even smaller marring and should of used a finish pad/polish possibly?


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## Spoony (May 28, 2007)

Horatio said:


> Soft paint maybe?
> http://www.environmentalleader.com/2013/04/04/ford-expands-co2-cutting-paint-process/
> 
> Trying to keep a daily driver swirl free is impossible.


As this man said. Swirls are impossible.

Make sure not to try and 'correct' them too much. Because you're not removing swirls you're removing clear coat each time.


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## sean ryan (May 10, 2015)

MonsterST said:


> What spry wax and glaze mate? So do you think the drying was causing the marring.
> 
> This was my initial thought beginning of this year. But even after switching to blow drying 90% of the car and then getting the dribs and drabs with a towel no change.
> 
> Usually pooling the water off leaves very little to dry off anyways!


Yea drying is the main factor you should blow dry the car from now on you will see a big difference and i use a lot of glaze's & spray waxes but the best glaze i found that worked the best was Chemical Guys Glossworkz Glaze & the best spray wax is Meguiars Synthetic X-Press Spray Wax aka Ultimate Quick Wax.


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## MonsterST (Aug 4, 2013)

Spoony said:


> As this man said. Swirls are impossible.
> 
> Make sure not to try and 'correct' them too much. Because you're not removing swirls you're removing clear coat each time.


Shame really.

I haven't only used renew which is very low cut, I mostly use it for glazes and such just to get more practice with holding and handling the machine.



sean ryan said:


> Yea drying is the main factor you should blow dry the car from now on you will see a big difference and i use a lot of glaze's & spray waxes but the best glaze i found that worked the best was Chemical Guys Glossworkz Glaze & the best spray wax is Meguiars Synthetic X-Press Spray Wax aka Ultimate Quick Wax.


Might have to try some and see how I get on. Ideally if I do a DI Vessel I would only blow dry. The only problem with now is blow drying doesn't get rid of 100% so still have to towel the drips and drabs left over!


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## sean ryan (May 10, 2015)

MonsterST said:


> Shame really.
> 
> I haven't only used renew which is very low cut, I mostly use it for glazes and such just to get more practice with holding and handling the machine.
> 
> Might have to try some and see how I get on. Ideally if I do a DI Vessel I would only blow dry. The only problem with now is blow drying doesn't get rid of 100% so still have to towel the drips and drabs left over!


I use a Stihl BG 56 Leaf Blower atm and i never have drip's left over but im waiting on my Aeolus TD-901T Cyclone Blaster/Dryer to arrive any day now and if you do use the towel it's no big deal because if you do what i do ''Glaze & then Spray Wax'' it will hide everything untill your next wash & that's all you have to do apply the Glaze & Spray wax after every wash and your car will look like new that's what i do :thumb:


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## Spoony (May 28, 2007)

The key is to be as contactless as possible. Use pre washes effectively. Use little pressure on your wash media and touch less drying via a blower or similar. 

I do 500 miles a week so I know the struggle of trying to be swirl free all too well.


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## Daniel C (Jul 17, 2010)

I owned a panther black fiesta for a while and it did have fairly soft paint. I was able to correct it with a light polish/pad combo. 

If you get your wax/sealant on a nicely prepped finish, the pressure wash should blast most the dirt off so you shouldn't have to worry about damaging the paint. But reading you are snow foaming and pressure washing before the wash I do not know what you are doing to inflict the damage.


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## Soul boy 68 (Sep 8, 2013)

Spoony said:


> The key is to be as contactless as possible. Use pre washes effectively. Use little pressure on your wash media and touch less drying via a blower or similar.
> 
> I do 500 miles a week so I know the struggle of trying to be swirl free all too well.


These methods work very effectively, that's exactly my approach also, less touching of paintwork during wash and drying process is a must.


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## MonsterST (Aug 4, 2013)

Perhaps I just need to touch it less. Although I feel I do.

DI Vessel with the blower is a must I think really then. Wouldn't even need to towel the remainder bits just let it dry naturally. 


How do you go about applying waxes, glazes, sealants etc without actually touching the paint. Then once you've got your LSP how do you go about with topping it up. Without touching paint?


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## Jcwminiadventures (Dec 3, 2011)

Don't envy you on the black 

We've got a deep impact blue fiesta (the purpley blue) & that's bad enough 

The fiesta paint seems as soft as butter 

As been said a coating will help but doesn't eliminate the prob completely you still have to glaze,seal & wax 

I find Zaino z6 is good for a final wipe over for gloss & slight cover up. I find gyeon softwipe & swissvax micro fluffy towels are my fav 

Apparently KKD regloss is meant to b good but seems to b by machine as I was really dissapinted by hand 

I got a tip from a friend swissvax paint cleanser & I've used it &'it works b4 wax 

I've also found gyeon wetcoat or purity x gives brilliant shine & coverage this time of year but as been said it's pretty pointless to do this time of year so wait for spring


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## Jcwminiadventures (Dec 3, 2011)

MonsterST said:


> Perhaps I just need to touch it less. Although I feel I do.
> 
> DI Vessel with the blower is a must I think really then. Wouldn't even need to towel the remainder bits just let it dry naturally.
> 
> How do you go about applying waxes, glazes, sealants etc without actually touching the paint. Then once you've got your LSP how do you go about with topping it up. Without touching paint?


Yeh a water filter/Di Vessel & a blower are a must plus yes don't towel dry as a high risk of marring especially this time of year

Ensure your shampoo is doing its jobs prob so as been said ensure your mitt glides over

This was a classic example on my last wash looked clean to naked eye despite several snow foams but Clearlly not


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## MonsterST (Aug 4, 2013)

DI Vessel most likely gonna be my next buy. Just a big cost to outlay which has why it's taken so long.

Even so though my question is you've still got to buff off products with a towel so you'll cause damage there if it's towels that are doing it. 

So you can't avoid it just by blow drying?


Nice slipper btw


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## R88ORY RXP (Dec 15, 2011)

Im in north kent too Bud, so i know all about hard water. My car is dark grey so I have to be smart about it to avoid water spots. A DI is next on my buy list! Infact... Elite are doing 10%... Bye!


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## great gonzo (Nov 4, 2010)

Plenty of lsp's you can spray on then rinse off, CarChems Hydrocoat, PurityX to name a couple.

Gonz.


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## great gonzo (Nov 4, 2010)

Mii s mad 
Those slippers!!!!!! 

Gonz.


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## Soul boy 68 (Sep 8, 2013)

R88ORY RXP said:


> Im in north kent too Bud, so i know all about hard water. My car is dark grey so I have to be smart about it to avoid water spots. A DI is next on my buy list! Infact... Elite are doing 10%... Bye!


I use my Aqua Gleem quite often at this time of year and leave my car to dry natrually. It's a waste of time even blow drying the car, let alone towel drying, car never stays dry long enough.


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## Jcwminiadventures (Dec 3, 2011)

great gonzo said:


> Mii s mad
> Those slippers!!!!!!
> 
> Gonz.


What 

They keep my feet toasty  obviously not whilst I'm cleaning lol


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## alan hanson (May 21, 2008)

swirls are virtually impossible to avoid so don't get to wound up about it

the piccie you sure you removed all the polish enough passes over lapping areas? if so could you have inflicted defects/marring when wiping the car down with IPA soft microfibre etc.....


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## EVO6RSS (Sep 11, 2015)

Monster ST, I feel you pain.. Just picked up a new panther black ST. It's got less than 200 miles on it ands it's swirled. I've washed it twice. 2bm method, girt guards, 2 wowo lambs wool mitts and then dried with the metro vac. I clayed it with an ADS clay mitt with a ton of AF glide plus ONR in the bucket and it really marred it places. I've been correcting tonight with LC Crimson and Mez 3500 with the flex 3401 and it's coming up lovely. Tbh I think the bits in your previous photo were polish residue you missed maybe?


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## nichol4s (Jun 16, 2012)

Try something like CarPro Essance, this is from what I've read the wonder product for these circumstances Cut + filling + Quartz Coating all in one. I have some but yet to try it but the reviews don't look bad if imo.


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## 11redrex (Sep 11, 2014)

Horatio said:


> Soft paint maybe?
> http://www.environmentalleader.com/2013/04/04/ford-expands-co2-cutting-paint-process/
> 
> Trying to keep a daily driver swirl free is impossible.


So Ford have reduced their CO2 output by 25%. And saved themselves a fortune while still increasing the price of new cars.
How much more CO2 is being produced in making the electricity to power all the polishing machines that are used to treat the scratches and swirls in their crappy paint ?
Bring back the good old days of 3 coats of primer, 3 coats of 2 pack and a good heavy coat of laquer. All cellulose, all cured in the oven before the next stage, and rock hard.
So it gave some of us a bit of mild brain damage, so what ? It was fun.


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## DrH (Oct 25, 2015)

I have had 2 Panther Black cars over the last 15 years. The latest one being a 2012 Fiesta Metal.
Neither car has been that bad for swirls so I would look at your wash method maybe.
I always rinse either with a PW or hose first.
Always wash the top of the car then rinse
Always wash the bonnet then rinse
The rear of the car and rinse.
You get the picture.
If it is warm out then I will dry as I go to avoid water spots.
Every second wash I use QD to top up the protection.
I have Angelwax Dark Angel on mine which may help cover some swirls.
Are you polishing it too much?
Only do mine twice a year.
Only been by hand so far
Just my thoughts?

Edit just seen my Fiesta in that strange sunlight and it is swirly although only noticeable in full sun. No more than the neighbours Merc though


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## obelix1 (Jun 14, 2015)

http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum...ns/57621-black-not-color-s-full-time-job.html


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## fozzy (Oct 22, 2009)

Welcome to the world of Black Paint. We recently changed car to an Alpine White after 10 years of black cars. It is a pain keeping up with it and washing and drying a couple of panels at a time to avoid spots etc.. BUT when it's cleaned and polished there is no better result on any colour that the sleek wet gloss look on black
paint. Stick with it


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## davrob (Mar 3, 2012)

I had same issues with my old Black Honda Civic,looked great when I corrected it but no matter how careful I was the swirls would gradually come back,I reckoned my problem was the drying stage as I do not own a blow drier.I have good drying towels but think the paint was just too soft,I ended up trading car in for a new Civic but in white,no problems with this one so far.


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## MonsterST (Aug 4, 2013)

Heh black really is a full time job. 

It's a tough one around these times and conditions to be fair. I like a clean car, so I wash often to at least keep it from looking a state like most cars you see this time of year. But I do know I'd keep swirls at bay washing it less especially when roads are so filth around this time of year. 

I'd rather keep the car tidy though, I hate driving about in a dirty car. 


I am going to buy another plush towel, use my blow dryer and come spring time hopefully grab a DI vessel. Going to just slow everything down and still focus on using correct pressure with mitts, pads and products. 

But I sort of know it will be in vein anyways


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## MonsterST (Aug 4, 2013)

OH and I think I will defo work with glazes more often just to fill in the swirls. 

Seems it will be something I will have to do more often than every few months, even considering fortnightly. 

Autobrite brilliance will mostly be my weapon of choice with a blue pad on the DA for speed.


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