# Does Layering Add Anything - a Test...



## Bigpikle (May 21, 2007)

I have long had a few questions in my mind about whether layering waxes does any more than ensure complete coverage. I was particularly intrigued about whether or not it made it last any longer? So I decided to start a little test to see if I can answer any of the questions for myself.

As beading and sheeting is the only visible determinant we have for whether a wax is present, or its rate of deterioration I thought I'd use that. If we had 2 areas of paint side by side, with 1 layer of wax on one part and 2 layers of the same wax on the other, we should be able to use the relative beading and sheeting behaviour to show how each performs relative to the other.

_The premise here is that if beading performance deteriorates faster on the panel with only 1 layer of wax on it, then its safe to assume that the additional layer of wax is helping maintain the performance of the wax layer._

So, the test process.

1 x Audi A4 Avant
1 x P21s Paint Cleaner
1 x P21s Concours Carnauba Wax (chosen so I dont grow too old before the test finishes )
1 x AS spray bottle of H2O

The 2 doors on one side of the car were washed, cleansed with P21s cleaner and then waxed carefully to ensure 100% coverage. After 1 hour, the drivers door was given a 2nd layer of the same wax.

The car is outside 24/7, the weather forecast is not good for the next couple of weeks, and P21s is reputed to disappear faster than free beer at a football match, so hopefully it should enable us to see visible differences quite soon, if they occur?

*Day 1*



















No observable difference in beading behaviour.

Stay tuned.

*Day 3*

Wash with mild BTBM solution and dried - no QDs etc










Still all even as far as I can tell...both sides seem to have suffered some slight loosening of the beading already.

*Day 6*

Another wash with mild BTBM and dry with no QD etc...

It was clear from the wash process that the wax is still very much present, with easy cleaning, sponge gliding across the panel and decent sheeting. Beading doesnt appear to have changed much from day 3 and both sides are behaving exactly the same to naked eye.










*Day 7*

still no obvious difference and the wax is fine...sorry for the out of focus image 










*Day 8*

The beading looks the same again to me? I tried spraying a LOT of water of both sides and it appeared that the 1 layer side was sheeting far less well, but when I videoed it I couldnt reproduce it  I probably wont get any more updates done until Friday now (day 11) so will post it as I get it...


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## kev_vaux (May 7, 2009)

Il stay tuned to this,

Good test


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## The Cueball (Feb 8, 2007)

Interesting thread.....


Keep 'em coming!!!


:thumb:


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## yetizone (Jun 25, 2008)

I agree - interesting stuff, will be good to keep tabs on progress. :thumb:


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## Neil_S (Oct 26, 2005)

Nice one Damon, my head says that the carrier would remove some of the wax when adding a second layer so I guess I may expect to see a marginal improvement with 2 layers, but not a massive difference.

We shall see :thumb:


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## Bigpikle (May 21, 2007)

Neil_S said:


> Nice one Damon, my head says that the carrier would remove some of the wax when adding a second layer so I guess I may expect to see a marginal improvement with 2 layers, but not a massive difference.
> 
> We shall see :thumb:


cheers Neil - I had the same thoughts. P21s doesnt seem to be overly solvent heavy, based on my very simple scratch and sniff test, and certainly not like some we know and love....so I suspect it might not be too bad in that respect.

My suspicion is that results will be very product dependent though.


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## The Cueball (Feb 8, 2007)

Bigpikle said:


> My suspicion is that results will be very product dependent though.


You could be doing these tests forever!!! :wall:

:thumb:


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## NKS (Feb 22, 2007)

Nice post Damon, will keep a watch of this thread :thumb:

One thing that could be inconsistent is that as you are using two panels on one side of the car. I am guessing the front and rear door. 

Usually the front door on my car gets more of a battering than the rear door, so a larger wear rate on the wax "possibly". However if you did it on both sides of the car you'd still get inconsistincies (sp) as "usually" the nearside (closest to the curb) is dirtier than the offside (drivers).

Out of interest is the double coat wax on the front door or rear door?

Not knocking this test at all, as I am currently running the same test on my father's car, with Optiseal and FK1000p which I will post up results of. That car is wearing FK1000 on the offside front and nearside rear and Optiseal on the parrallel panels


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## DarrylB (Feb 17, 2006)

my thoughts are:

1 layer = 98.9% coverage when applying, good shine and depth
2 layers = 99.5% coverage when applying, negotiable improvement in shine and depth, better durability 
3 layers = 99.8% coverage, no more increase in shine and depth, maybe increased durability over 2 layers.
4 layers and more = diminishing returns - you'd basically be removing the last layer you applied with another - waste of wax basically

looking forward to seeing more results!


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## MeganeChick (Apr 9, 2009)

great test, i look forward to seeing the results


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## Bigpikle (May 21, 2007)

NKS said:


> Nice post Damon, will keep a watch of this thread :thumb:
> 
> One thing that could be inconsistent is that as you are using two panels on one side of the car. I am guessing the front and rear door.
> 
> ...


yep - front and rear door, but those pics are either side of the shut, so only 6" apart. I plan to use the same areas for pics as they are so close that theres not much chance of any real difference in environment degradation IMHO.

I was going to use the roof but thats already testing a few other bits so there's no room :lol:


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## NKS (Feb 22, 2007)

Bigpikle said:


> yep - front and rear door, but those pics are either side of the shut, so only 6" apart. I plan to use the same areas for pics as they are so close that theres not much chance of any real difference in environment degradation IMHO.
> 
> I was going to use the roof but thats already testing a few other bits so there's no room :lol:


:lol: Cool, sounds like a worthwhile test. Whilst you have the courtesy car, try out some furniture wax to see how it does?? - I have some if you need


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## VIPER (May 30, 2007)

Are you planning on doing exactly same test again (after this one has run it's course and any conclusions made) but this time layering say, a day apart or something, just to compare if putting the second coat on the next day is actually substantially beneficial to only allowing about an hour between coats?

Great test btw. Damon


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## Bigpikle (May 21, 2007)

Pit Viper said:


> Are you planning on doing exactly same test again (after this one has run it's course and any conclusions made) but this time layering say, a day apart or something, just to compare if putting the second coat on the next day is actually substantially beneficial to only allowing about an hour between coats?
> 
> Great test btw. Damon


Not sure Mark TBH? I am working on Doms advice that 90% of the wax set-up is complete in about an hour, and as it was warm and dry today I dont see any reason this might not be accurate. I could be tempted to try it with a premium wax over a longer period, like SN, to see if the results (whatever they may be???) are repeated. Any quality experiment should be repeatable.


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## PJS (Aug 18, 2007)

Bigpikle said:


> My suspicion is that results will be very product dependent though.


I'd say that's practically a given Damon, if not a bit of an understatement.


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## MK2VTR8VALVE (May 6, 2009)

NKS said:


> Nice post Damon, will keep a watch of this thread :thumb:
> 
> One thing that could be inconsistent is that as you are using two panels on one side of the car. I am guessing the front and rear door.
> 
> ...


Id be very interested in your FK1000p test as I'm contemplating the same combination on my steel grey Subaru once the FK arrives in the post.
Which did you put on first? I'd assume the FK then the Optiseal?
What sort of finish did this achieve?

Cheers 
Ryan


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## Bigpikle (May 21, 2007)

PJS said:


> I'd say that's practically a given Damon, if not a bit of an understatement.


you might be right Phil?

I want to try a few typical carnauba based waxes first, like P21s, Supernatural etc, as I suspect there will be similarities between these. Its the uber solvent stuff like Collinites, FK1000 etc that might fall into another category, and then of course anything with cleaners in it... Its just that testing those Colli's FK's etc is such a long term test, that it also runs the risk of other anomalies creeping in - contamination etc. I'll put a 50/50 of 1 vs 2 layers of FK on my bonnet this winter and see if anything differs but thats probably as far as I'll take it for now.


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## Alan W (May 11, 2006)

Nice test Damon. :thumb:

That's me subscribed and I look forward to the results with great interest! 

I was going to suggest waiting 24 hours before applying the 2nd layer but PV beat me to it and your/Dom's explanantion seems fair enough.

Get the SN on the other side because I also think the results will be very product dependent.

Alan W


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## Ninja59 (Feb 17, 2009)

i will stay tuned as well to see if im wasting any....i think like some others though product dependent to...


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## Lowiepete (Mar 29, 2009)

Bigpikle said:


> 1 x P21s Concours Carnauba Wax (chosen so I dont grow too old before the test finishes )


Damn! ...and I thought I was patient 

Yet another post to watch avidly, could this place get more addictive?

Regards,
Steve


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## Ninja59 (Feb 17, 2009)

yep def. and will continue to raid your bank account :lol:


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## caledonia (Sep 13, 2008)

Nice test Damon. :thumb:
I will keep my thought to myself just now.
But you are right it is all product dependant. Well as much as the oils or carriers are concerned and the mixing ratios. But this is not taking solvents into the equation. But thats an other test for you.
Watching closely.
Gordon.


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## ads2k (Jul 12, 2006)

Nice to see you're doing something worthwhile for a change :lol:

Be interesting whether the second layer will make a conceivable difference.


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## badly_dubbed (Dec 11, 2008)

subscribed to this 

will be intresting to see what one (if any) falters first!


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## Bigpikle (May 21, 2007)

ads2k said:


> Nice to see you're doing something worthwhile for a change :lol:
> 
> Be interesting whether the second layer will make a conceivable difference.


cheeky sod


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## needhampr (Feb 13, 2006)

I would be very interested to see the same test conducted for SN. I don't think anyone has really tested durability of SN V2 be it 1 layer or 2. 

Keen to see the results but I suspect that there is mileage in applying 2 layers of a nuba wax, where as something which appears to be solvent heavy like Colli 845, i'm not at all convinced.


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## Bigpikle (May 21, 2007)

needhampr said:


> I would be very interested to see the same test conducted for SN. *I don't think anyone has really tested durability of SN V2 be it 1 layer or 2. *
> 
> Keen to see the results but I suspect that there is mileage in applying 2 layers of a nuba wax, where as something which appears to be solvent heavy like Colli 845, i'm not at all convinced.


I did last winter 

We put Vintage, Royale and SN v2 on my car here...at the end of October. That single layer of v2 lasted all winter and was still beading extremely well when the car had its full spring detail in early March. The car was outside 24/7, did a lot of winter miles, was under snow for 2 weeks and didnt have anything added to the protection throughout that time  It should be noted it was applied properly under controlled conditions of warm with low humidity.

I may well do this test with SN next on one of the other cars, but as I expect it to take 5-6 months to produce any real results, I wanted a faster test with a less durable wax - allegedly


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## ads2k (Jul 12, 2006)

Bigpikle said:


> cheeky sod


:lol::lol::lol:, got to keep busy busy or she'll find you something 'proper' to do 

so what's happened then - has it gone yet


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## Bigpikle (May 21, 2007)

ads2k said:


> :lol::lol::lol:, got to keep busy busy or she'll find you something 'proper' to do
> 
> so what's happened then - has it gone yet


rained all night, and still raining - might be the shortest test in the history of DW tests :lol: When it stops later it will get a gentle BTBM wash and I'll check again 

EDIT: Newsflash...P21s survives 12 hours of rain


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## badly_dubbed (Dec 11, 2008)

crikey!!

are both the single layer and 2 layers gone?


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## Ross (Apr 25, 2007)

I love P21s I would need to conduct a P21s durabilty test unfortunaly I stripped the two coats to try the Dodo SN wax


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## RP Stevie (Jan 24, 2007)

looking forward to hearing your results, especially as P21S was the first ever wax I bought and quickly discovered it didn't last!


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## Bigpikle (May 21, 2007)

Day 3 update added....


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## shaqs77 (Jun 10, 2008)

very interesting, i am doing a similar test but its not as scientific and concise as Bigpikle's. my a4 avant was washed twice using megs gold class, clayed using megs clay, a layer of srp was added to prep the paintwork, an hour later a coat of blue velvet was applied, 2 hrs later another coat of blue velvet was applied and 24hrs later a coat of sn was applied. this was done the 4th aug and my car is still beading now, a collegue commented on how much it beaded compared to other cars. this saturday i intend to wash it again with gold class (but dilute it by 50% more than manufacturers advice as i dont want to strip the wax) then give it a quick spray with megs quick detailer and see if it still shines like it did when i applied the sn. hopefully i want to keep on doing this until it beads no more. hopefully, i anticipate it will bead like this for another 3months+. if it does it would make the cost of owning a pot of sn quite cheap!!!!

ps sorry to hijack this thread.


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## Dodo Factory (Apr 11, 2007)

Great test, Damon... we always recommend layering (at least two coats) purely from a point of view of coverage - it's like painting a wall, one layer is always patchy - and you can see in terms of the unbuffed wax how some areas are thicker/thinner. Two coats ensures you never 'miss a bit' and will ensure a good coverage of wax.

Durability should, in theory, be increased. Beading and other water characteristics like sheeting, will not be affected initially, but they should last longer because of the durability (theoretically!). Depth of shine would theoretically be increased a fraction. But physical gloss would theoretically be lower as light has to reflect into, and out of, an extra layer of wax.

Let's see how theory meets practice, although you have applied both layers ultra-carefully and one of the reasons we suggest two thin layers is for the consistency and completeness of coverage as mentioned above. I look forward to the updates


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## TOGWT (Oct 26, 2005)

_Does water beading equate to durability or to actual surface protection?_


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## Dave KG (Feb 23, 2006)

Interesting test for sure, thanks for taking the time to conduct it 



TOGWT said:


> _Does water beading equate to durability or to actual surface protection?_


No. It equates to the water repellancy of the surface, which is a property of a variety of factors, one of which _can_ be the wax coating... You can infer from changes in water behaviour, but must be careful not to base assessment on it.


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## Bigpikle (May 21, 2007)

Dodo Factory said:


> Great test, Damon... we always recommend layering (at least two coats) purely from a point of view of coverage - it's like painting a wall, one layer is always patchy - and you can see in terms of the unbuffed wax how some areas are thicker/thinner. Two coats ensures you never 'miss a bit' and will ensure a good coverage of wax.
> 
> Durability should, in theory, be increased. Beading and other water characteristics like sheeting, will not be affected initially, but they should last longer because of the durability (theoretically!). Depth of shine would theoretically be increased a fraction. But physical gloss would theoretically be lower as light has to reflect into, and out of, an extra layer of wax.
> 
> Let's see how theory meets practice, although you have applied both layers ultra-carefully and one of the reasons we suggest two thin layers is for the consistency and completeness of coverage as mentioned above. I look forward to the updates


cheers Dom

will be interesting to gather 1 more piece of evidence to add to everyone elses observations...



TOGWT said:


> _Does water beading equate to durability or to actual surface protection?_


probably not, and I very deliberately havent said that either. It does stand to reason though that _IF_ beading drops off on the single layer side quicker than the double layer side, then the double layer side must be offering greater resistance to surface degradation. If both deteriorate at the same rate it would suggest 2 layers doesnt slow down degradation. Of course 2 layers _might_ mean a slightly thicker layer of wax on the paint surface, so even with the same rate of decay, 2 layers would provide protection for longer IF it does lead to a greater film build?


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## Dodo Factory (Apr 11, 2007)

TOGWT said:


> _Does water beading equate to durability or to actual surface protection?_


Neither.

It's just a characteristic of the surface layer that could indicate the presence of an LSP (thus durability and protection).

You know that TOGWT, you are well clued up


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## badly_dubbed (Dec 11, 2008)

any updates?


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## Bigpikle (May 21, 2007)

badly_dubbed said:


> any updates?


its only day 4 and day 3's are in the original post :lol:

forecast heavy rain tomorrow all day, so will wash and inspect on Saturday and see what's happening...


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## badly_dubbed (Dec 11, 2008)

lol im impatient

good work thus far tho


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## Bigpikle (May 21, 2007)

cheers - will actually be fun to see what happens to P21s beading in 2 weeks - after that it will sit in Gatwick airport for 2 weeks, so I dont expect much left when I get home....


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## MidlandsCarCare (Feb 18, 2006)

It'll probably all be gone by tomorrow!! :lol:

I can't believe how much it's dropped off in two days.


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## Bigpikle (May 21, 2007)

Day 6 update added in the first post...


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## Bigpikle (May 21, 2007)

day 7 added in the first post...


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## Bigpikle (May 21, 2007)

Day 8 added...

Hope we start to see something happening by the end of the week as I go away for 2 weeks then, and after that the car goes back to Audi.

P21s seems to be more durable than many said :lol:


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## Roryw (Dec 30, 2007)

Thanks for the updates, its a really interesting test


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## The Doctor (Sep 11, 2007)

Hi BP thanks for taking the time to do this test it should be interesting. How about speeding up the process by washing in something a bit harsher? If layering does add extra protection then surely 2 layers should resist a stronger chemical for longer than 1 layer.

Just a thought as you said you were going away at weekend.


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## Bigpikle (May 21, 2007)

I'd rather not if possible as I dont want to skew the test if I can help it...

Will see what happens before the weekend, otherwise we wait 2 weeks for the next update :lol:


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## GazGJ (Oct 15, 2014)

What was the final conclusion?


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## Bigpikle (May 21, 2007)

given it was over 5 years ago now I cant remmber the last pics I took, but the car went back to Audi before either layer was gone, so:

1. P21s lasts a lot longer (number of washes) than everyone says it does 

2. the side with 1 layer didnt wear any faster than the side with 2

not sure it really means anything conclusive.... :lol:


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