# Flex XCE and polishing passes



## nicks16v (Jan 7, 2009)

Hi folks, I wonder if someone could guide me in the right direction at all. I have now got the above machine after putting it off for so long, I have watched all sorts videos and tutorials and have become a little confused between 2 techniques used on the Forensics channel and the one on the Apex Detailing channel which i hope someone could explain to me.

On the Forensics channel, he was doing a tutorial on the 3401 VRG on a pretty trashed black VW, he did 6 passes with a medium pad (he said do 90 seconds to 2 minutes per set, but he must have been going much longer than that). Anyway, once he did the first set, not all the defects went away, so he did another set with the same combo and it was then at the right level. My question is, surely you wouldnt want to do that all over the car would you ? Would he have been better off doing another test panel but with a firmer pad to see if that got the damage out in 1 set rather than doing 2 sets with the same pad and compound combo ?

Now on the Apex channel (the bit I'm confused with), he only does 2 passes, checks defect removal and if not enough does another test with a more aggressive pad.

My confusion is why is there such a difference in the number of passes they are both doing per set ?

Confusing the hell out of me.

I hope someone can explain it to me


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## Steampunk (Aug 11, 2011)

In the real world, the machine you use is only one vector in the polishing process, to calculate the number of passes you need to make... It depends upon the product, the paint, your technique, the machine, the environment, and the balance between quality and time that you've judged is best based upon your own experiences and eye for detail. It's not so simple as 'x detailer always uses this number of passes'... If a person uses the same number of passes for every car, with every product, with every machine, against any sort of defect that's a really good indication you can't trust that source.

Apex is a great channel for being introduced to new products... His polishing technique however, frankly, is cringe-worthy... He'll test multiple products on the same pad without properly cleaning it. He won't adapt his polishing or priming style to any product, no matter how different the technology. I think his heart is in the right place in regards to supporting the detailing community, but one needs to take his polishing style with a pinch of salt.

Jon at Forensic is likewise a good-egg when it comes to supporting the community, and his polishing abilities are less limited than Apex, however... He's still not 'master level', like some of the old-school educators in this particular field... DaveKG or Kevin Brown, Kelly @ KDS, Russel @ Reflectology, etc.

No one on YouTube that I have found, has portrayed polishing as being as complex of a process as it is in real life... It's a craft. A lot of the good info on it is only written, and if anyone tries to portray it as 'paint by numbers', they're limiting the results you can achieve severely. There's also a lot that hasn't been written about this craft, like how to solve problems when you go to polish something, and things _don't_ react in a standard way... This happens all the time, because we aren't all polishing the same defects, on the same paint, in a controlled setting.

I don't know what polish you're using, what pad you're using, what paint you're polishing, what defect you're trying to correct, or what your atmosphere in... All these can massively effect what technique, in terms of passes, pressure, priming, etc, is needed.

At one point, there were pros on this forum that helped others, who could identify the problem an amateur was facing because they'd faced it themselves, and were able to narrow down what was needed to be done a lot closer than what most of the members can today (Myself included.). These people learned their craft from the old-school masters, or are the old-school masters themselves.

Today, those pros aren't posting because their focus is elsewhere; survival has trumped supporting the community that they were once a part of. This means, you're now on your own... You won't ever get a true 'paint by numbers' level advice from a pro, who has corrected exactly the same defects, on exactly the same vehicle, using exactly the same pads/polishes/polishers as you can buy, again. That day is done.

Instead, you have 'influencers' to rely upon, and they do not have the experience or classical skill of the old-school detailers. I can't blame them; they're survivors. We're at that point, though, that at a community level, we have to reinvent these skills that others have mastered before...

Everyone used to learn their trade from the experts in an individual area... People wouldn't ask Kevin Brown about how to care for leather, and they wouldn't ask Kelly @ KDS about how to do a rinseless wash... There were specialists, and they liked to answer questions, and if you ghosted the community for a few weeks you knew who was an expert in what field.

You've got a Flex XCE polisher; that's the only fixed variable... You're using X pad, with Y polish, against Z defect. That's not enough info to solve the problem, even for a really experienced member.

One of the best pieces of wisdom I was ever told, was that "Today, you have to become an expert in everything."... I'll tell you how to become an expert in this. How to problem solve a defect with any polishing system...

First, identify the abrasive type in your polish... Is it non-diminishing, does it diminish linearly, does it have a non-linear diminishing curve, and what is the length/height of that correctional curve? Contact the company, get as much info as you can about suggested technique, and then play with it yourself... The old-school masters learned how stuff worked by relying on their senses; their touch sense of when a polish started to feel like it was running smoother (Meaning the abrasive had probably broken down.), their vision to tell them that if a polish was overworked it started creating a worse result at some point, or if it needed to be worked more. You see and feel how the lubricant is handling things; it starts to become more opaque as more swarf is collected and starts to load, and can dust or ball-up when you work it too fast, or too slow, or if the paint starts to absorb too much of the solvent carrier in the oil because it's 'sticky' (Porous)... You feel the relationship between the hydraulic effect of the lubricant limiting, or helping the abrasive cut deeper based upon its density. You see what happens when a polish is worked too little or too long, and you need to pay attention to those touch-sensations as you polish, or what your eyes tell you as the polish film changes from clear to cloudy. You learn what to look for; you learn what to feel for. You feel when a polish starts to gum-up at a certain speed, and then you back down until it's running happily. This is how you become excellent.

The last polish systems that were figured out by independent sources at a craft-level were Menzerna, 3M, Scholl, and Meguiar's. If you're working in another system (Koch, Rupes, etc.), at best you have the company's highly generic suggestions of how to work the product, because independent pro detailers haven't formed experiences they've shared about how to really make it work. If you're working in an even more obscure system, you might not have any reference point to start from at all.

So, you're going to have to play around. You're going to need to say "I'm going to become an expert in this", solve the new problem in front of you, and share your findings so you can become the next guru of the system you've mastered... Accept your task, and be the best you can be. Help people, because they need you, because you know what it's like not to have a guru. To have to become your own excellence, without anyone to help you. To have a belief in something, because it's what needs to be done. To not want anyone in your community to have to go through the trial-and-error nightmare you did, again, and to try to share with all the detailers that what you experienced in hopes that someone else will have an easier time.

Tell me what you're experiencing, and I'll do my best to share my experiences, but if not... I wish you luck in learning, because we'd all like to know.

Sincerely,

Steampunk


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## 4Wheels&Engine (Jun 11, 2020)

Another great post Steampunk, thank you. It's also interesting to hear your views on some of the videos out there.

From looking at lots of videos online from professionals, I've seen a range of polishing sets, from two by Brian at Apex with slow arm speed, through to eight plus with fast arm speed by Mike Phillips. Most seem to fall somewhere in the middle, perhaps this is due to a number of pros may have attended Rupes courses and following their methods.

I find Sandro's videos from Car Craft Auto Detailing interesting, as he shows his test spots, so you can see his decision-making process in selecting a technique and products to achieve the desired results.

Something I do like is the sense of community, and people's willingness to share their experience and offer advice to help others. I imagine for many detailing businesses in the current global situation, they are giving all their energies to keeping the businesses running in the face of ever-changing safety advice and trying to stay safe.


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## Itstony (Jan 19, 2018)

*nicks16v*
I always read you putting yourself down with practical tasks. What Steampunk has written is just what you need to hear.
There are people that just cannot grasps some tasks, but at least find out first and try.
Every single person that ever picked up a polisher for the first time had no idea how it would be, only some practical people would have a better idea. 
You cam always try and find someone to give you some time to get you started. If not, with the videos on YT it will help a lot with the basics. Pads, products and basic techniques, Pad cleaning, care and amounts of product etc. etc. From there you are on your own tbh. Don't be greedy, small areas and slow and see what you find. Fine pads and product and see what you get.
only personal tip would be, to go by "Feel". Our human senses are mind blowingly good, so listen to them, see them, feel them and they will help you loads. After some time it will start to build a memory you will expect, not learn again and that just goes on and on.
Mistakes, we all made and still make them, it's only way to learn.

So again, don't put yourself down before you start, just go easy and not too fast and light and try and get the feel and I am certain you will see what SP was explaining, just what everyone must do. be prepared to be pulled and pushed, balance messed with and you have to feel those to let your senses read them, adjust and learn. They are smarter and quicker than you.
My mantra has always been, "Nothing in this world is done by mirrors". Humans are good at working this stuff out.

You can do it! :thumb:


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## nicks16v (Jan 7, 2009)

Steampunk said:


> In the real world, the machine you use is only one vector in the polishing process, to calculate the number of passes you need to make... It depends upon the product, the paint, your technique, the machine, the environment, and the balance between quality and time that you've judged is best based upon your own experiences and eye for detail. It's not so simple as 'x detailer always uses this number of passes'... If a person uses the same number of passes for every car, with every product, with every machine, against any sort of defect that's a really good indication you can't trust that source.
> 
> Apex is a great channel for being introduced to new products... His polishing technique however, frankly, is cringe-worthy... He'll test multiple products on the same pad without properly cleaning it. He won't adapt his polishing or priming style to any product, no matter how different the technology. I think his heart is in the right place in regards to supporting the detailing community, but one needs to take his polishing style with a pinch of salt.
> 
> ...


Thank you Steampunk, I will master it, and I will always help others like they have helped me in times of confusion. I have a Nardo Grey Audi which has wash marring only, with 2 deep scratches which I dont intend to chase out yet. I have the Rupes Mille Yellow and white pads for the XCE, and I have all the Flex pads for the PXE . Compounds, I have the 3 Koch Chemie ones and also Rupes Uno Protect. I would love a scrap panel to sort myself out, but havent been able to get one yet. Strangely the guy across the road has a trashed silver VW, that he was asking me questions on, and I might experiment on that, knowing I shouldnt be able to make that any worse than it already is with what I have got (famous last words lol). The idea for Uno protect was to use it as my defects are not major and Im not too interested in ceramic coatings yet, plus it would be good for other cars in the family for a quick brighten up ( I may have got my thoughts all wrong with my intended use, but I thought its a relatively safe start) - The Koch Chemies I got with the XCE H9.01, F6.01 and M3.01. I hope that will all give me enough stuff to start with until I find what works for me on my car.


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## nicks16v (Jan 7, 2009)

Itstony said:


> *nicks16v*
> I always read you putting yourself down with practical tasks. What Steampunk has written is just what you need to hear.
> There are people that just cannot grasps some tasks, but at least find out first and try.
> Every single person that ever picked up a polisher for the first time had no idea how it would be, only some practical people would have a better idea.
> ...


thanks Tony, yeah, I do put myself down with things that are a bit Alien to me as I normally end up messing things up. But this has always been something I wanted to master and get right. I have always been what I regard as quite good at safely washing and detailing a car, but never went beyond that. Always wanted to learn to machine polish, but was always scared of making things worse. But like you all have said, I have to start somewhere and just go for it and find my way. I am sure that there will be many after me that will have the same dilemma and hopefully in the future I will be able to pass my learnings to them also.

That VW across the road is about to get the biggest Spa treatment it has ever had lol


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## 4Wheels&Engine (Jun 11, 2020)

@nicks16v, if you're in need of a confidence boost, you could always see if there are any reputable detailing classes you could attend. That would give you a foundation and awareness of common pitfalls.


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## Paul.D (Jun 26, 2013)

Nick the answer is test spots I tend to do multiples of 4 passes wipe down see what the correction is like then do another 4 on the same area just adding a little more polish to make up for what I wiped off.
I know it will then give a bit more cut with fresh polish but it gives me a point to work from. 
So if 8 passes gets me to the level I want with a top up 1\2 way through I will do 8 next time on fresh paint and see where that gets me. 8 might be enough or I might need 12.


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## Andy from Sandy (May 6, 2011)

That is good if you are using a non-diminishing abrasive but I don't think it is as simple as that for a diminishing abrasive.


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