# Paint still soft after 6 months



## electrogen

I have a ‘soft paint’ problem on my car (an MGB) which was re-sprayed 6 months ago at a local sports/performance car restoration specialist. This was a full bare-metal re-spray. Even the lightest touch (with fingers or clothing) will leave permanent scratches on the paint surface. I complained about this, and the other day the proprietor of the restorers visited me to see the car, and brought with him the paint retailer and a technician from the paint manufacturer. The technician carried out a hardness test on the paint and confirmed that the paint was too soft and unacceptable, and would require all or some of the applied paint to be removed and the job re-done.

The products used were:
1. Lechler R-EC epoxy primer + Lechler 29370 hardener (2:1) + Lechler 00516 thinner as required.
2.	Lechler TI primer + Lechler HS hardener (5:1) + Lechler 00740 thinner as required.
3.	Lechler BSB basecoat + Lechler 00741 thinner (10%).
4.	Lechler Macrofan HS clearcoat + Lechler HS hardener (2:1) + Lechler 00741 thinner (10%).

The paint technician said that there had been insufficient thinner added to the basecoat – he thought it should have been 20%, and said that this is what they (the manufacturers) recommend. I’m surprised that such a small difference could be responsible for what now appears to be a very soft paint surface. He has advised that both the clearcoat and basecoat should be removed before re-spraying.

Later, using a razor blade, I peeled off a couple of square inches of paint. The clearcoat came away with all the basecoat attached, leaving the primers attached to the car. The primers appeared to be fully cured and wouldn’t mark by fingernail. The basecoat layer didn’t seem to be soft – it scratched off the clearcoat as black dust. The remaining layer of clearcoat is very soft, and will mark easily.

Approximate paint thicknesses are:
Primers – 200 microns
Basecoat – 25 microns
Clearcoat – 90 microns

I’ve looked at the Lechler data sheet for BSB basecoat and it recommends a mixing ratio of 1000 parts BSB to 600-800 parts 00741 thinner.
Could the basecoat be responsible for the paint softness?

Attached photo is close-up of scratches left by stroking the paint surface with an artists' watercolour brush.


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## robdcfc

Acoording to the tds as you have pointed out there should be 60-80% thinner in the base.

Most solvent solids are 2-1 anyway(1000-500)


This will mean the film build is way to thcik and isnt curing.


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## Aaran

i think its more likely to be a problem with the clear, more specificlay the hardener going bad for some reason.

i would doubt very much its the basecoat being thick, sounds more like the clear has not catalysied tbh

basecoat will dry firm weather its got thinners in it or not, the idea of thinning it is to get an even smooth laydown and alter the viscosity of it. you can tell it wants more thinner in it jsut by looking at that pic you posted


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## pcm1980

Is the paint soft on the whole car or just some of the panel? 
Is it a possibility that the painter accidentally picked up the tin of thinners in place of the hardener? Hence the problem with paint hardness been soft and not properly cured.


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## SprayerDrew

Lechler base needs thinning between 1000 part paint to 600 - 1000 parts thinner so 60-100%


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## electrogen

pcm1980 said:


> Is the paint soft on the whole car or just some of the panel?
> Is it a possibility that the painter accidentally picked up the tin of thinners in place of the hardener? Hence the problem with paint hardness been soft and not properly cured.


Yes the whole car is the same. The photo I attached was taken at ambient temp of 12c; now the weather's warmer the paint seems softer and more flexible and I can push my thumbnail in down to the primer.

It seems like the clearcoat hasn't hardened (I don't think the painter is likely to admit he was at fault). The Lechler technician said that the incorrect basecoat mix was the cause of the softness (I don't understand this).

This is the second re-spray I have had done on this car - it was re-sprayed in Sept 2012 by another reputable classic car restorer and was returned to me with soft paint - it took me 2 years to get to the bottom of that problem and get a full refund. At least this time the painter seems to want to co-operate and do the job again.


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## pcm1980

I believe it is excess film build in the basecoat layer and hasnt been dry when the lacquer was applied, trapping solvents under the lacquer and causing lacquer to behave like its floating on top of the basecoat and is able to be moved. The trapped solvent trying to escape though the lacquer will also effect the performance of the lacquer by entering the lacquer, thus making the mixed lacquer unstable and no longer mixed as per manufacturers data sheet.
Strip to primer is only way to resolve this problem.


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## electrogen

UPDATE ON MY SOFT PAINT PROBLEM:

Following further discussions with the paint shop, and receiving a written report from Lechler (the paint manufacturer), they agreed to re-spray the car.
After a close examination of the paintwork, which included removal of some paint from the car, it was agreed between myself and the paint shop proprietor that they would carry out the following remedial work:
1. Remove the clearcoat by flatting down with wet and dry. This would inevitably take some of the basecoat off as well
2. Apply more basecoat, followed by two coats of clearcoat
3. Re-polish​
I had the car delivered back to the paint shop and went there the following morning to go over with them again what work would be done. I was gobsmacked when the proprietor then told me he didn't think there was anything wrong with the paintwork. He said he'd placed a 1-litre can of some sort of paint product on the bonnet, and the following morning found that it hadn't left any mark or impression on the surface of the clearcoat. This, he claimed, proved that the clearcoat was not soft (?!!). It seemed like he'd had second thoughts about having to do the car again, but I insisted throughout that the car was re-sprayed as previously agreed. He even rejected the Lechler report which recommended that the paint be removed and then re-sprayed. He ended up offering (a) a refund, or (b) he would do the re-spray as agreed - but adding the proviso "it'll be just the same if we paint it again, we do all the cars the same way". I asked him to re-spray as agreed (Jul/Aug temperatures may help the curing, compared to last time, Oct/Nov). I also checked with him again that all of the soft clearcoat would be removed(I suspected that as he was doing the job 'for nothing' he may try to cut corners).

Six weeks later the car was returned to me. The paint hardness was better here and there, but it was mostly way below acceptable. I then went over all the panels checking the paint thickness and found the average to be between 400 and 500 microns (compared to a modern car = 120-150, and my 1980 MGB = 200). Average paint depth readings taken by the Lechler technician after the first re-spray were 300. This led me to suspect they hadn't removed much (or any) of the previous layer of soft clearcoat. I then checked the roof panel where I'd previously peeled off clearcoat (with basecoat attached) and it was 300 microns - 130 less than the adjacent area where I hadn't removed any clearcoat.

I phoned the paint shop and told him I thought the paint was still too soft. I asked him if he was sure all the clearcoat had been removed, he replied: "We'd taken all the lacquer off. We've painted it like it should be, we've only put two coats of lacquer on it, and I don't know what to say. We've done the car absolutely no different to any other car."

I also told him I was concerned about how thick the paint was. His response:

"I think you're just trying to be too technical, to be honest. We never put a depth gauge on it."
"We put a lot more paint on a lot of cars. On Bentleys and Aston Martins, we put a lot more paint on than that, we've never had trouble with one. The depth of the paint shouldn't make a difference."

I've told him I will be seeking some independent professional advice. I'll also get a 'paint condition report' done (if there is such a thing) which will help me claim a refund. I will look elsewhere to have the car bare-metalled and re-sprayed.

Attached photos show (1) roof area adjacent to sunroof aperture, showing marks made by me, running my fingernail lightly over the clearcoat surface (the marks are permanent indentations), (2) scratches on the bonnet, which are on all the panels, as if someone has gone over the car with a dirty rag.


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## rich9

What a nightmare, it's like the car is jinxed! Hope you get 3rd time lucky. I know it's easy to say with hindsight, but going in to check the clearcoat removal or having them take photos to prove may have helped settle your mind at least.

They are using very good products so you would hope they know what they are doing. Using epoxy primer after a bare metal job is a very good sign, most bodyshops will just put high build primer straight on, which is nowhere near as good corrosion protection or adhesion.


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## mikechesterman

Is there any reason why you went for base and clear on a classic car like that? What's the actual colour?


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## electrogen

Strada Automotive said:


> Is there any reason why you went for base and clear on a classic car like that? What's the actual colour?


The colour is black and the original paint code was British Leyland BLK; the code for the Lechler basecoat is Rover PMA (1980's) which is a match for BLK.

I would have preferred solid colour instead of clearcoat. The first re-spray (done in Sep.2012) was solid black PMA, manufactured by Pro-Spray. This turned out to be a disaster - not because of the paint system, but the incompetence and lack of skill of those involved.

I don't know of any other paint shops in this area (Chester, Cheshire) who will take on a 35-year old car, let alone give a choice of paint system, it's all basecoat/clearcoat.


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## squiggs

Are they actually baking the car or are they relying on air drying?


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## Aaran

pm me if you struggle to find anyone to repaint it. id have a good crack at it, 

hope you get it sorted either way


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## mikechesterman

electrogen said:


> I don't know of any other paint shops in this area (Chester, Cheshire) who will take on a 35-year old car, let alone give a choice of paint system, it's all basecoat/clearcoat.


That seems very odd. If you're re spraying an entire car it's no hardship to order in whatever paint is required for the job/requested by the customer. If it's a partial Respray/small localised repair then you could understand why they'd want to use their own scheme.

There's no way we would base and lacquer that colour unless specifically requested by the customer. Yes, it's more difficult to work with a solid 2 pack, but anyone who can't deliver a quality finish shouldn't be working with classic cars!


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## PootleFlump

It is bizarre you have a paint hardness problem with 2 different painters.


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## squiggs

Strada Automotive said:


> That seems very odd. If you're re spraying an entire car it's no hardship to order in whatever paint is required for the job/requested by the customer. If it's a partial Respray/small localised repair then you could understand why they'd want to use their own scheme.
> 
> There's no way we would base and lacquer that colour unless specifically requested by the customer. Yes, it's more difficult to work with a solid 2 pack, but anyone who can't deliver a quality finish shouldn't be working with classic cars!


I'm no expert in full re sprays but .... surely someone who understands, is confident and can do a good job with one scheme can't simply change to different scheme that they don't understand as well and aren't confident with and expect to turn out a perfect job.
Knowing and understanding the exact viscosity of the paint, the exact pressure to apply it with, through which gun at which distance might make for a perfect finish with one scheme .... but all of those 'knowns' might not transfer to an untried scheme?


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## electrogen

squiggs said:


> Are they actually baking the car or are they relying on air drying?


Squiggs, the car was left to air dry in their workshop. They have no heating, apart from a 2ft x 3ft infrared heater which would probably do for heating one panel of a car; this was not used on my car.

The Lechler inspection report following the Oct/Nov 2014 re-spray expressed some concern about the drying process, and included the following comment:

".... the activators will stop working when the temperature drops to 15 degrees or below. I have noticed that the ambient temperature quoted in this case that on only two days the lowest temperature rose above 15 degrees. The highest temperature only rose above 15 degrees for two days the first week and two the second." - _I supplied Lechler with ambient temperature data taken from local weather station records for the two-week period that the car was being painted._

There was only a slight improvement in clearcoat hardness on the later (Jul 2015) re-spray, when ambient temperatures were higher - max temps 18 to 21 degrees, min temps 10 to 14 degrees. - _Note that minimum temperatures quoted here are outdoor temps at around 5am, not temperatures inside the workshop._


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## Daz.

I'd have taken the refund and walked away personally and found somewhere reputable.

Sounds like you're going to struggle to get anything out of them again.


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## pcm1980

I would get in touch with lechler again to see if you can speak with the paint technician that came out to inspect your car. Tell him what has gone on, ask him to come and inspect it again and tell him he can take vehicle if he needs to do further tests. Ask him to produce a report of his findings. At least at this point, you will have it in black and white if you need to take further action and seek legal advice.
To be honest, if i knew that the company didn't have facilities to bake the car, my car wouldn't of even entered the building. Sounds like he's set up for smart repairs and not resprays or restorations.

Good luck getting it sorted.


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## electrogen

Daz. said:


> I'd have taken the refund and walked away personally and found somewhere reputable.
> 
> Sounds like you're going to struggle to get anything out of them again.


Taking the refund would probably have put me in a better position than I'm in now, but at the time I was reasonably confident that they could make a better job of it. They seem to have a good reputation locally.

_My interpretation of the Supply of Goods and Services Act:_

When I first complained to them that the re-spray was not acceptable to me and 'not fit for purpose', the Supply of Goods and Services Act states that I had to give them the opportunity to rectify the problem. I asked them to rectify it. As they have failed to do so (ie, the car was returned to me again with soft paint) I am now entitled to take the car elsewhere for the work to be done, and claim the full cost of this from the original paint shop _(unless their offer of refund precludes this course of action?)_

This was not a cheap re-spray -approx. £3200 + vat.


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## electrogen

pcm1980 said:


> I would get in touch with lechler again to see if you can speak with the paint technician that came out to inspect your car.


It was only after the paint shop were dragging their heels in response to my original complaint that I contacted Lechler directly. They responded quickly and I think they were probably concerned in case there was a product defect. Now it has been established that the product was not at fault they need not be involved any further. They were kind enough to supply more materials to the paint shop free of charge, to do a second re-spray, as a goodwill gesture.

I shall write to Lechler anyway, just to update them on the way things are going. As an end-user I don't have any contract of supply with them; their technician's written report was sent to the paint retailer. I phoned the retailer and they emailed me a copy of the report.


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## mikechesterman

squiggs said:


> I'm no expert in full re sprays but .... surely someone who understands, is confident and can do a good job with one scheme can't simply change to different scheme that they don't understand as well and aren't confident with and expect to turn out a perfect job.
> Knowing and understanding the exact viscosity of the paint, the exact pressure to apply it with, through which gun at which distance might make for a perfect finish with one scheme .... but all of those 'knowns' might not transfer to an untried scheme?


I wouldn't trust any bodyshop who are only willing to work with one scheme and one type of paint. A run of the mill accident repair type bodyshop who only wants to use their own scheme, I could understand to point, but anyone claiming to be a restoration-type bodyshop should be able to paint with absolutely anything and know how exactly how to tweak their set-up to suit. And certainly any restoration bodyshop absolutely needs to be able to paint solid colours and even cellulose because as nasty as it is, you're always going to get the odd customer who is a purist and wants their car painted in the exact type of paint it was painted in from the factory.

This is why we have several different guns of the same model set up differently for different types of paint. We don't have our own scheme, we don't need one. High throughput accident repair centres couldn't function without one. It's horses for courses. We use Lechler, Spies Hecker, Nexa, Glasurit in the main and Pro Spray for certain things occasionally, but we've used everything.


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## steveo3002

weird one how you can scratch it like that 

cant think what they can have done , still sounds like faulty /stale product to me


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## mr paint

Now that is cured for so long ask a paintshop to bake it in there booth .

see if it makes any difference ?


we had it once with a bad hardener with max meyer you could mar the finish very easy ...we baked the clear using i/r and re cleared the panels all was well after .


Tommy


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## electrogen

steveo3002 said:


> weird one how you can scratch it like that
> 
> cant think what they can have done , still sounds like faulty /stale product to me


They seem to have got it right in a couple of areas - on the door apertures. On top of the sill, which is normally covered up when the aluminium tread plates are screwed on, is much harder and scratch resistant.


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## electrogen

mr paint said:


> Now that is cured for so long ask a paintshop to bake it in there booth .
> 
> see if it makes any difference ?


I set up a fan heater close up to one of the panels and left it on for a while. My infrared thermometer showed the panel temperature as 60c. After it cooled down, paint was still as soft.


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## SprayerDrew

never had it myself but know someone who has. Ended up bare metalling the complete car and starting again. if the bodyshop are saying its not there fault get lechleer to look at it. It is there full system afterall

sorry just read further back and it sounds like they are trying wash there hands with it.
Trouble with lechler they will always say go back to the supplier they are all looking for a way of escape without it costing them

One way of releasing solvent to make it fully cure is to flat it then bake it then polish. Any restoration company knows this technique and if it still aint hard its going have to come off


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## steveo3002

i think it was a mistake them planning to sand off the clear and carry on (if they ever did )

i would have wanted it bare metal as once things start going wrong adding more products is never the right way


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## SprayerDrew

to be honest by braking through the clear to basecoat only = burnups when re basecoating unless sealed with primer. It needs stripping but you need compensating first.


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## ShaunaFTW

Christ on a bike! £3200 + VAT! We resprayed my 1979 mini on the drive not long ago for under £600 including buying a compressor and it's a much better job than my 'professional' spray done two years ago.


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## PootleFlump

That is a lot of dollarage but a good job should be a lot of work.


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## squiggs

electrogen said:


> I set up a fan heater close up to one of the panels and left it on for a while. My infrared thermometer showed the panel temperature as 60c. After it cooled down, paint was still as soft.


If only all spray booths could do away with their ovens and/or infrared lamps ....???? I can't explain the science - but using a fan heater to get it up to temp is very DIY and really doesn't prove anything 

As I said before I'm no expert in full re-sprays ...
The problem could be due to a 'dodgy' product or an incorrect mix,.
But it would seem to me that either the primer, base or lacquer are still holding solvents and keeping things soft. 
With no oven bake having taken place along any part of the process I'd put my money on the later.

If it could be proven that products or mixes were sub-standard, who would prove/admit it? Not the bodyshop and not the suppliers?
It's unlikely that the suppliers products were at fault and the suppliers can't prove that the bodyshop mixed/applied them incorrectly.

Taking measurings of paint thickness after the rework has only proven to yourself that the job hasn't been completely re-worked (but the bodyshop don't seem to be up to date with the technology you're using!)
So whilst you might be able to prove they haven't fully reworked the job what outcome would you want if they admitted they didn't fully re-work, whilst knowing that the re-worked areas still weren't up to standard?

I don't know your legal standing - but if they haven't left you with something worse than it was before and if they offer a full refund (or cost of putting it back to 'original') then I can't see any other reasonable options being available.

Somebody's going to shoot me down for my last comment ... but you can't 'reasonably' expect a job of circa £3.5k to be sent off to a 'better' place and the original shop to get a bill for £9k can you? (More especially if you think, as in a previous post, that £3.5k expensive  )

Anyway OP I've talked through ..... hope I've helped - though probably not


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## electrogen

Attached photo is from website of a local car restorers. Does it look like the spray booth they are using is IR heated? (They have been recommended to me by a local MG garage.)

http://www.matchboxrestorations.co.uk/apps/photos/photo?photoid=184142451


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## steveo3002

no heater in that pic

this is what the heater looks like 









tbh youve paid for the job to be done right and its not up to you to be a detective , needs refunding then paint stripping


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## Scoobycarl

Some booth have ir built into walls of booth


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## mr paint

The booth above is a spraybake booth with green door etc 

this will have bake facilities to get panel temps to 70 deg ish 

before stripping I would short wave I/r the panels as this will dry everything out from inside out !

There are also decent air dry products on the market now to ...I use air dry a lot Debeer 614 dry in 12 hrs or 20 mins at 40 deg . This is full properties in this time !


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## electrogen

steveo3002 said:


> i think it was a mistake them planning to sand off the clear and carry on (if they ever did )
> 
> i would have wanted it bare metal as once things start going wrong adding more products is never the right way


The car has now been inspected by PVWI Car and Vehicle Paint Inspections - pvwi2010.co.uk

The inspection included paint hardness test, paint depth readings (several test points on all panels), and removal of paint by flatting down to primer to reveal paint layers.

Their report states that

"the paint film is below the minimum hardness required by motor manufacturers and repairers"

"the original applied colour and clear coats do not appear to have been removed prior to the 2nd repainting in the area flatted through"

"the higher film build from over coating a previously detected soft paint film will result in a softer total paint film"​
And they recommend "a back to metal or at least back to primer levels should be carried out"


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## pcm1980

The coat with the question mark? I would suggest this is a transparent sealer that has been used to try and mask the underlying problem of the soft paint. Have u had contant from the bodyshop that has carried out the respray(s)? If so what is the outcome?


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## Cookies

That's an absolute nightmare chum. I really hope you get this sorted. 

I remember reading on here about a guy who sprayed a car but forgot to put any hardener into the lacquer. He said it was a complete mess trying to remove it. There's loads of body guys on here who can offer great advice, and looks like they're on the ball with this.

Good luck!!

Cooks


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## Sicskate

I think the "?" Is another base coat and lacquer coat. 

Original primer
Original black
Original lacquer
Soft black
Soft lacquer
3rd resprayed black
3rd resprayed lacquer. 

This is only a guess, but it looks like the black base and lacquer have bonded together in the ? area, also it looks darker in the inner section then fades out.


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## Harry_p

I wonder if like above the ? Is a thin base and lacquer coat to try and cover over imperfections or bodge cure the soft layer?

Still seems daft given the advice they'd already received that they would just bung another full base and clear over the top of paint that was clearly defective. I guess they were hoping it would cure hard enough to be able to polish without marring so it wouldn't be so obviously soft at first inspection.


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## electrogen

pcm1980 said:


> The coat with the question mark? I would suggest this is a transparent sealer that has been used to try and mask the underlying problem of the soft paint. Have u had contant from the bodyshop that has carried out the respray(s)? If so what is the outcome?


Not spoken to him since the PVWI inspection. Before the second re-spray I told him I wanted all the soft clear coat removing before it was repainted, looks like he's tried to pull a fast one. The Lechler report, which said the original re-spray was soft, advised that no more paint should be put on top of the soft clear coat as this wouldn't sort the problem. I've been advised to put my complaint in writing, will do this next week (just going away for a few days).

Was wondering if the "?" paint layer is an isolating coat to avoid any reaction between the soft clear coat and the 2nd base coat.


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## pcm1980

electrogen said:


> Was wondering if the "?" paint layer is an isolating coat to avoid any reaction between the soft clear coat and the 2nd base coat.


My thoughts exactly. Hopefully u can get the issue resolved soon.


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## Andyb0127

In most cases if laquer is still soft and can mark really easy the underlying problem is normally that the basecoat has not been dried properly. On the second time they said they would remove all the laquer and some of the basecoat, my opinion from what you've said doing this would never work. Really all the laquer and basecoat should of been removed and start again.


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## electrogen

Andyb0127 said:


> In most cases if laquer is still soft and can mark really easy the underlying problem is normally that the basecoat has not been dried properly. On the second time they said they would remove all the laquer and some of the basecoat, my opinion from what you've said doing this would never work. Really all the laquer and basecoat should of been removed and start again.


Thanks, Andy. What you say concurs with what someone else told me the other day. I shall be having all clear and basecoat removed next time, and probably taken back to bare metal. I've had one estimate for this and they told me they could only guarantee their work if it was bare-metalled.


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## Andyb0127

electrogen said:


> Thanks, Andy. What you say concurs with what someone else told me the other day. I shall be having all clear and basecoat removed next time, and probably taken back to bare metal. I've had one estimate for this and they told me they could only guarantee their work if it was bare-metalled.


No problem. Was most likely a basecoat that doesn't cover very well thus meaning more colour needs to be applied. In most cases like this you will use a primer that's not to disimilar to the basecoat colour that way you should need less costs of colour. Yes the bodyshop are correct if they apply just colour they can't guarantee what's under primer from previous work or how it will affect the overall finish to bare metal it and start again would be the only real way to get it right with a guarantee.


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## VdoubleU

Just read through the thread. What a nightmare!! Hope you get it sorted. I would have took the refund and ran. 
I had some bad paint done recently. Luckily it was just badly orange pealed so I wetsanded and polished it to a mirror finish. But it's such a crap feeling spending a load of money getting work done, being excited to see the car and then it been rubbish. We didn't even bother to ask them to rectify it because judging by the buffer trails I new I would wetsand and polish a lot better than they ever could. At least it turned out nice in the end.


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