# Snowfoam Advice



## TMX (Jan 1, 2017)

Hi all.
I’m new here but hoped you guys could share your thoughts
I’ve short listed the following snowfoams to try and curious to hear your thoughts
•	Chemical Guys No Touch Snow Foam
•	Chemical Guy HoneyDew
•	Bilt Hamber Auto Foam

What’s the difference between CG’s No touch snow foam and HoneyDew and has anyone tried both?

I’m looking for a snowfoam for a car that lives on country roads and the odd motorway run, that gets washed properly using 2 bucket method etc every 3 or so weeks. Ideally the snowfoam can be used on its own to bring the car back to looking reasonably respectable on a roughly weekly basis when I’m short on time. (I don’t expect it to bring the wheels back to looking clean – these would be dealt with separately) Scent and colour is not a concern to me, cleaning power is more key to me

At the moment I haven’t settled on a decent wax so I’m not too concerned if the snowfoam affects waxes or other surface protection. Ideally it will not strip something like Collinite 476 which is probably the next wax I’ll try in the future.

The snowfoam would be applied using a foam lance similar to the Autobrite type items with a Karcher K7.85.

Thanks. :thumb:


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## DrEskimo (Jan 7, 2016)

Currently use CG honeydew but have an order of BH auto foam waiting to be used so can give you my thoughts after I have tried that.

Just to throw a spanner in the works, I was planning on using BH auto foam through a pump sprayer, rather than as a snow foam as it's potentially quicker, less messy and more effective...!


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## OvEr_KiLL (Mar 2, 2015)

odk arctic cleans well with good dilution rates
wowos awesome foam cleans slightly better with the good dilutions
auto glanz spritzer cleans well and foams up nicely


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## techman56 (Aug 10, 2013)

Used BH foam through a lance for the first time. Foams very well but will have to use it a few more times to judge its cleaning ability and to compare it to AF Citrus pre-wash instead. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Smanderson117 (Jan 19, 2015)

BH autofoam /endthread

The best cleaning power I, and many others have experienced. Honeydew is quite good and smells really nice but autofoam strips away the dirt whilst being LSP safe. You do need to use more of it to get the required PIR concentration however it comes I 5l tubs for usually around the £15 mark so can't complain. Ive often foamed the car and left it at that just to clean some heavy grime off till I can wash it later in the week etc


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## shine247 (Mar 1, 2010)

Hi and welcome, since you have narrowed it down to 3 already I will tell you my experience. 
The No touch is as good as any, the only problem with it is it does leave a lot of foam on the ground which hangs around. The BH product is recognised as one which does not create masses of foam in a lance, to get it you need a significant amount of product, it is better used in a pump sprayer with warm water imo. 

I have not tried Honey dew so cannot comment. If you definitely want a good foam effect I would have to say No touch if you do not mind the residue and the cleaning is reasonable. 

If masses of foam is not important, BH via pump sprayer around 4% is good. 

There are loads of foams, someone loves each as much as someone hates the same so I would just stick to your shortlist for now.

The main thing is you need to enjoy what you do 

PS, the above said, some might say water alone is as good as snowfoam when you have a decent pw like you do, I found that pretty much the case in a recent test but will say BH added some value in the same test, whether it was down to a pre soak with warm water I have yet to validate.


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## Hawkesybaby (Jun 17, 2016)

Autoglanz piste is cracking a pretty cheap when you whack the JAN20 discount code on that they have at the moment! One of the best I've used! KKD blizzard has good reviews as well as BH but I think if you wanna have fun whilst doing it then maybe summat a little different but I'd 100% give piste a go!


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## TMX (Jan 1, 2017)

Thank you all for the replies - I didn't expect this many replies so quickly
It seems like Auto Foam is the preference so far.



DrEskimo said:


> Currently use CG honeydew but have an order of BH auto foam waiting to be used so can give you my thoughts after I have tried that.
> 
> Just to throw a spanner in the works, I was planning on using BH auto foam through a pump sprayer, rather than as a snow foam as it's potentially quicker, less messy and more effective...!


Thank you, I think I'll wait until you can give an opinion comparing the 2.
Do you have a link to the kind of sprayer mentioned?
I'm guessing you simply hose off the cleaner after 10-15 minutes or so ?


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## savbmw (Jan 19, 2015)

*Snowfoams*

I've found CG's Honeydew foam an excellent product - I use this in the Summer months (evenings, never midday or early afternoon) - when the temp is a higher and when the Sun decides to show it's face. It seems more resilient to heat and doesn't dry out as quick. However, nothing I've tried comes close to cleaning power of BH Auto Foam - this stuff is amazing and I use it during the Winter months! I use 100ml in 1.5 litres of warm(ish) water in a Mesto handheld sprayer - leave for a few minutes, then rinse off with a pressure washer. If you are in a rush then you could leave it there as it gets rid of 95% of the grime. I like to finish with a quick 2 bucket wash as it literally takes minutes as there is hardly any dirt left to remove!:thumb:


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## cheekymonkey (Mar 15, 2008)

auto foam


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## Subc (May 30, 2008)

Bilt Hamber all the way, save the rest for a Foam Party..  If your stuck any shampoo to remove grit before putting a PW near it.

Pump Sprayer (Pressure Group) LOL


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## Brian1612 (Apr 5, 2015)

Find auto-foam too expensive used as a snow foam due to the poor dilution. Obsession wax blizzard for me


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## cheekymonkey (Mar 15, 2008)

Brian1612 said:


> Find auto-foam to expensive used as a snow foam due to the poor dilution. Obsession wax blizzard for me


At a 5% ratio it costs roughly 17p per ltr to use. even if you use 2 ltrs thats 34p per car to clean. 5% is the highest you will ever need to use it. Also no big layout at only £17 delivered from polished bliss


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## todds (Feb 17, 2015)

Welcome to DW and enjoy the trip:lol: Regarding snow foam it is generally advisable to use pH neutral snow foam and also to make sure that it does not contain sodium metasilicate (which some manufacturers add to boost cleaning) but can be very nasty on paint in the long term. Also i would advise not using snow foam with strong colourings as these can lead to staining.
Bilt hamber Auto Foam is made with biodegradable compounds is very good on cleaning soil and grime, is non-caustic and even with weekly use will not attack your paint binders. i find it best to wash it off the car with the hose and it leaves a nice slick cleaner finish.Also the older or longer your LSP is on your car the longer the dwell time of the foam needed to clean the surface. Bilt Hamber products have an excellent reputation and let their products speak for themselves rather than relying on fancy packaging and marketing hype. You should check out their section in the DW sponsors section. i have not used the other snow foams you mention so i cant comment on them.
regards
todds


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## Brian1612 (Apr 5, 2015)

cheekymonkey said:


> At a 5% ratio it costs roughly 17p per ltr to use. even if you use 2 ltrs thats 34p per car to clean. 5% is the highest you will ever need to use it. Also no big layout at only £17 delivered from polished bliss


Could you explain your maths to me as those figures are nonsense?

I have already done the figures and nothing touches blizzard at 16p per wash at 5L based on the 40 quid price I got it at. Believe it is now £50 for 5L but even then it's only 20p a wash.

From memory around 340ml was calculated to be needed of autofoam per wash for a 4% panel ratio through a lance. Let's call it 250ml for fairness. We won't fill the bottle fully so less dilution. Same as I do with blizzard so 450ml gives us a total of 700ml. Even at 250ml it works out at 85p per wash. At 200ml it's 68p per wash.

I know my figures are spot on because I go over this constantly with foams to see if blizzard can be beat. Only the recent HDD and Waxaddict offerings can touch it.


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## macca666 (Mar 30, 2010)

cheekymonkey said:


> At a 5% ratio it costs roughly 17p per ltr to use. even if you use 2 ltrs thats 34p per car to clean. 5% is the highest you will ever need to use it. Also no big layout at only £17 delivered from polished bliss





Brian1612 said:


> Could you explain your maths to me as those figures are nonsense?
> 
> I have already done the figures and nothing touches blizzard at 16p per wash at 5L based on the 40 quid price I got it at. Believe it is now £50 for 5L but even then it's only 20p a wash.
> 
> ...


I would guess that, like others which included me when I first started using snowfoam, cheekymonkey has calculated the dilution ratio incorrectly for a foam lance and not taken flow ratio etc from the pressure washer into account effectively working out the initial dilution as 5% but not as a ratio to include the water being put through the pressure washer. Figures may be easier to explain....

A foam lance bottle is 1l so 5% of that is 50ml so filling a litre bottle you will use around 50ml. If you buy a 5l autofoam at £17 you will get 100 x 50ml "uses" which works out at 17p per 50ml "use"

Obviously the above doesn't take into account the water then added via the pressure washer which then dilutes it even further reducing the dilution ratio well below 5%.....

BUT.......

If autofoam is applies via a pump sprayer then cheekymonkeys figures would be pretty accurate I would've thought??

I like both Blizzard and autofoam and prefer autofoam but I tend to just add about an inch of product to my lance bottle no matter which product I use and it's only my own two cars I do so the cost aspect isn't a big issue for me given the limited use :lol::lol:


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## derbigofast (Dec 6, 2011)

just use car shampoo i gave up on dedicated foams as the extra cleaning is almost impossible to tell a difference


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## macca666 (Mar 30, 2010)

derbigofast said:


> just use car shampoo i gave up on dedicated foams as the extra cleaning is almost impossible to tell a difference


Have to disagree with that one from my own experience I can definitely see differences between different snowfoam and using a shampoo. I would agree there are some snowfoam out there where there isn't much, if any, of a difference though.

Plenty of threads showing comparisons unless you were you meaning just to miss out the snowfoam stage completely and go straight to the 2BM wash stage?


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## Guest (Jan 7, 2017)

Brian1612 said:


> Could you explain your maths to me as those figures are nonsense?
> 
> I have already done the figures and nothing touches blizzard at 16p per wash at 5L based on the 40 quid price I got it at. Believe it is now £50 for 5L but even then it's only 20p a wash.
> 
> ...


I use 4% AF in pump sprayer, works out 13.6p per 40ml of foam to 1 litre of water, 200 ml of af (68 pence) & 480ml of water in 5 litre pump sprayer, i can get 25 full pump sprayers worth out of a £17 bottle of Auto Foam


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## derbigofast (Dec 6, 2011)

from what the pressure washer can remove before you foam and what cleaning ability the foam gives there is not a massive difference so why foam with a dedicated cleaner when you have the pressure washer already and can use the shampoo to foam and add extra lubricity. there is actually a good gary dean video on youtube showing this. just to prove my thesis


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## bigmac3161 (Jul 24, 2013)

^^^
But what if like me u spray onto dry car before pressure washing


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## Guest (Jan 7, 2017)

derbigofast said:


> from what the pressure washer can remove before you foam and what cleaning ability the foam gives there is not a massive difference so why foam with a dedicated cleaner when you have the pressure washer already and can use the shampoo to foam and add extra lubricity. there is actually a good gary dean video on youtube showing this. just to prove my thesis


Only reason i use auto foam the way i do is because it does actually give a touchless wash, this time of year i often just literally spray it on, pressure wash off, put the 2 pieces of kit away & go back indoors, a pressure washer alone wouldn't give results auto foam does, btw I'm not just jumping on an auto foam bandwagon, i use it cause i know it delivers results, i would still use it if it was £50 to buy, it's just a very very impressive product


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## neilmcl (Mar 26, 2010)

Brian1612 said:


> Find auto-foam too expensive used as a snow foam due to the poor dilution. Obsession wax blizzard for me


Used as a snow foam probably but with a pump sprayer where it's equally as effective not at all.


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## neilmcl (Mar 26, 2010)

derbigofast said:


> from what the pressure washer can remove before you foam and what cleaning ability the foam gives there is not a massive difference so why foam with a dedicated cleaner when you have the pressure washer already and can use the shampoo to foam and add extra lubricity. there is actually a good gary dean video on youtube showing this. just to prove my thesis


And there a plenty of members on this forum that have experience to show that isn't the case.


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## Brian1612 (Apr 5, 2015)

Not disputing any of the figures for BH Auto Foam used as a pre-wash but the OPs original question was about using snow foams through a foam lance.


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## shine247 (Mar 1, 2010)

Poor guy, only asked about 3 products and now it has turned into the usual debate and cm is not necessarily to blame. 

It would be nice if folk thought a bit more about their comments and not say others are talking nonsense, especially when they should lead by example, question something yes but the way some treat others on here these days is just like other media. No wonder the old timers with good solid knowledge are dropping away.


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## Ads_ClioV6 (Apr 27, 2014)

shine247 said:


> Poor guy, only asked about 3 products and now it has turned into the usual debate and cm is not necessarily to blame.
> 
> It would be nice if folk thought a bit more about their comments and not say others are talking nonsense, especially when they should lead by example, question something yes but the way some treat others on here these days is just like other media. No wonder the old timers with good solid knowledge are dropping away.


 Hit the nail on the head there,all this bickering over a product is ridiculous


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## Cookies (Dec 10, 2008)

@TMX - I'd recommend that you get some litre bottles of each snow foam and give them a try to see which one does what you want. I haven't tried any of the CG ones, but the BH autofoam is very good stuff indeed, with very impressive cleaning ability. 

Generally speaking, the foam lance will dilute what's in the bottle at about 10:1. So for a 2% solution on the panel, fill the bottle 20% with foam, and the rest with water. 

I never really appreciated how good the snow foams were until we recently got two white cars. Sure, the pressure washer will remove some of the dirt, but foaming the car, whether it's wet or dry, allows me to remove a lot more dirt than pressure washing alone. 

Get your pre-wash routine sorted, and you'll be well on the way to keeping your paintwork in good shape. In my humble opinion, it's the most important step. 

Trying the different products is all part of the fun, chum. 

Good luck

Cooks 


Sent from my D6603


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## steelghost (Aug 20, 2015)

macca666 said:


> I would guess that, like others which included me when I first started using snowfoam, cheekymonkey has calculated the dilution ratio incorrectly for a foam lance and not taken flow ratio etc from the pressure washer into account effectively working out the initial dilution as 5% but not as a ratio to include the water being put through the pressure washer. Figures may be easier to explain....
> 
> A foam lance bottle is 1l so 5% of that is 50ml so filling a litre bottle you will use around 50ml. If you buy a 5l autofoam at £17 you will get 100 x 50ml "uses" which works out at 17p per 50ml "use"
> 
> ...


I think there's an element of folks talking past each other here. I would agree macca, cheekymonkey's numbers look very much like use through a pump sprayer which is where Auto Foam seems to be at its best, from an economy point of view. Having discussed this with Brian previously Auto Foam is definitely not especially economical when used in a lance.

OP, I think you need to decide if you want snow foam because it looks like fun, or you just want the most cost effective way to do a pre-wash. I find that the dwell time for Auto Foam via pump sprayer can be just 2-3 minutes, if it's a sunny day (even in winter) - much longer than that and it starts to dry on the car. I tend to just re-wet it with the pump sprayer and keep on with the wheels for a bit longer, but I know some folk like a nice thick foam that gives them chance to use a detailing brush on badges etc. Again this really comes down to personal preference and you can choose your snowfoam accordingly.


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## Mcpx (Mar 15, 2016)

The answer is that there is no answer, certainly not a one size fits all answer anyway, because the point that everyone seems to be missing is that every time you wash a car it is different, even if it's the same car that you wash every Sunday morning come hell or high water. The weather changes, where we drive changes, sometimes the car is dirty, sometimes not so much, sometimes someone writes messages in the dirt on the back, bless em. Point is, why would you use the same cleaning routine every time when it may be either completely unnecessary or completely inadequate?

Pick a product and learn its characteristics, then you can tailor its use to your needs each and every time, sometimes a thick foam will loosen up the dust and leave you with nothing to do after you rinse it off, other times a more runny solution might be needed to soak into tougher dirt before going in for a more aggressive contact wash.


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## Subc (May 30, 2008)

BH 300ml in 5L of water P Sprayer, crud falls off car and can do it a number of times, Works out Cheap as Chips.

NB I use at this concentration to remove winter crud Awesome


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## neilmcl (Mar 26, 2010)

That's a tad stronger than you'd generally need in a pump spray. Personally I stick to 4% (eg 80ml in 2L) and that's plenty to a full car with some left over. Each to their own I suppose.

As far as the OP's question is concerned, if you're into foam then either of the CG products would suit you just fine but in my experience BH AF is very good but isn't designed to make loads of foam and the dwell time is much less but it can be used equally as good as a non-foaming pre-wash in a pump sprayer and will be cheaper too because of it.


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## TMX (Jan 1, 2017)

Thank you for all the replies.
Especially to: @DrEskimo @shine247 @todds @Cookies
(I haven't figured out how to "thank you for this useful post" feature yet)

I didn't realise how passionate some of you were about this !

I think I'll wait to see what DrEskimo thinks comparing 2 of the products I mentioned and go from there. I'll probabably pick up a bottle of AF and CG No Touch foam, just to see myself and play with the ratios with a foam lance - If it doesn't work out I'll try a pressure sprayer.

Dare I ask where is the best priced place is to pick up some Auto Foam?


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## steelghost (Aug 20, 2015)

TMX said:


> Dare I ask where is the best priced place is to pick up some Auto Foam?


Polished Bliss :thumb: (mostly due to free delivery)


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## DrEskimo (Jan 7, 2016)

steelghost said:


> Polished Bliss :thumb: (mostly due to free delivery)


They are currently out of stock 

I ended up buying a few bits from CarPro and realised they stock it along with BH clay.

Quickly managed to get up to £60 for the free delivery, then applied the discount and got a good haul :thumb:

CarPro Perl
CarPro Iron X (the best fallout...still cant find others that spray as nicely as theirs...)
CarPro Hydro
BH Auto-Foam
BH Soft Clay


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## DrEskimo (Jan 7, 2016)

TMX said:


> Thank you for all the replies.
> Especially to: @DrEskimo @shine247 @todds @Cookies
> (I haven't figured out how to "thank you for this useful post" feature yet)
> 
> ...


No problem mate. Doing my GFs Mini tomorrow morning. Annoyingly I don't have my pressure washer with snow lance so will be applying it via spray bottle.Will give my thoughts and next time I wash my car round my parents I will do a test to compare both CG and BH :thumb:


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## armufti (Oct 11, 2016)

Back to the topic....

I've used a few foams so far ; 
BH auto foam - decent clean but still needed a 2BM
AF avalanche - again decent clean, sticks better than BH, still needed 2BM
CG honeydew - lots of foam but poor poor cleaning.
Autoglanz spritzer - stunned! Very good clean and could have got away without a 2BM - did it anyway.
Pro-kleen - smells terrible, hurt my throat after using it. Cleaning... meh. Needed to snowfoam with something else to get it clean.




Sent from my SM-N910C using Tapatalk


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## Cookies (Dec 10, 2008)

TMX said:


> Thank you for all the replies.
> Especially to: @DrEskimo @shine247 @todds @Cookies
> (I haven't figured out how to "thank you for this useful post" feature yet)
> 
> ...


You're very welcome chum. I'm currently using Orchard Autocare Cotton Candy, and it's been brilliant at removing all the winter crud. So much so that, for this time if year, my wash and rinse buckets are pretty much perfectly clean when I finish.

Get your LSP sorted too and that will increase the effectiveness of the snow foam as the dirt just won't stick. Have you thought about a coating?

One more thing - you can thank people when you've reached 25 posts.

Cooks

Sent from my D6603


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## cheekymonkey (Mar 15, 2008)

Brian1612 said:


> Could you explain your maths to me as those figures are nonsense?
> 
> I have already done the figures and nothing touches blizzard at 16p per wash at 5L based on the 40 quid price I got it at. Believe it is now £50 for 5L but even then it's only 20p a wash.
> 
> ...


not my figures they are BH, personally dont go into the price per wash, more intrested in the results. to get a 4% panel finish it all depends on the water flow of your PW as to how much you use. I fined 250ml is more than enough to produce a good clean with 750 ml of water from that 1 ltr i get 2 good washes 3 if i am careful. that makes it about 43p a wash. Another plus for me is it cast only £17 delivered, instead of shelling out £50 for the same quantity.


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## cheekymonkey (Mar 15, 2008)

in2detailing also sell autofoam, always had great service from them.they also have a discount code for DW


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## cheekymonkey (Mar 15, 2008)

this is what BH put,

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*Ah well a 5% solution of auto-foam costs 17p litre (ish) and it's easy to cover a car with 2 litres - 34p a wash. This product wets the surface so efficiently that you don't need to apply to excess.*
__________________
from this thread
http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=382029


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## Cookies (Dec 10, 2008)

@TMX - the obvious variable here is the degree to which your foam lance dilutes the contents of the bottle. 

What I usually do is put about an inch of foam into the bottle and top up with water. With the valve fully opened, if I need thicker foam, add more product. If it is too thick, either close the valve a bit on the lance, or add more water. I rarely measure how much product goes into the bottle - roughly about an inch, I'd guess somewhere around 200ml, works perfectly fine in both my lances. 

Good luck.

Cooks 

Sent from my D6603


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## macca666 (Mar 30, 2010)

I'm with Cooks for dilution. As a keen home detailer only I rarely follow manufacturers guidelines exact I always do approximates. As I'd mentioned earlier I put about an inch as well no matter what snowfoam I'm using and just adjust the dial to suit which does mean I use more, or less, product dependant on how open or closed the valve is.

For shampoos I tend to just pour from the bottle. If I want more suds I add more the next time. :thumb:

To the OP many people will have different opinions as you can see and what is right for one isn't for another. The best way is to try it for yourself and buy small quantities initially to see if you're happy with it.

One thing I have learned in this game is that if you find something you like and it works for you stick with it. I've bought loads of stuff to try and find a lot of it pretty much the same so find myself now with a lot of excess products all doing the same thing with a similar performance :lol:


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## wish wash (Aug 25, 2011)

If you dilute your foam to say 50:1 when it's being sprayed out is it not diluting it further with the pressure washer


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## bigkahunaburger (Jun 27, 2012)

macca666 said:


> One thing I have learned in this game is that if you find something you like and it works for you stick with it. I've bought loads of stuff to try and find a lot of it pretty much the same so find myself now with a lot of excess products all doing the same thing with a similar performance :lol:


This, exactly this 

And it goes for just about all products. There is always something new and wonderful being hyped up and we are suckers for it


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## Cookies (Dec 10, 2008)

wish wash said:


> If you dilute your foam to say 50:1 when it's being sprayed out is it not diluting it further with the pressure washer


Yes. If the final dilution for the product should be 50:1 on the panel, and the lance will dilute at 10:1, then put a 5:1 mix into the bottle.

Cooks

Sent from my D6603


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## Cookies (Dec 10, 2008)

macca666 said:


> I'm with Cooks for dilution. As a keen home detailer only I rarely follow manufacturers guidelines exact I always do approximates. As I'd mentioned earlier I put about an inch as well no matter what snowfoam I'm using and just adjust the dial to suit which does mean I use more, or less, product dependant on how open or closed the valve is.
> 
> For shampoos I tend to just pour from the bottle. If I want more suds I add more the next time. :thumb:


Cheers macca. I always say, for cleaning cars I'm happy enough with approximate measures. If it was pharmaceuticals, I'd probably be a bit more exact lol.

Cooks

Sent from my D6603


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## DrEskimo (Jan 7, 2016)

TMX said:


> Thank you for all the replies.
> Especially to: @DrEskimo @shine247 @todds @Cookies
> (I haven't figured out how to "thank you for this useful post" feature yet)
> 
> ...


Here are my results from cleaning the GFs Mini today.

Mixed BH auto-foam 10:1 in a spray bottle with warm water, left to dwell for about 10mins.

Before:









After:









In all, I was very impressed. I know I should of done a 50:50 with pressure rinse and BH+pressure rinse, but honestly I've been cleaning this car for 3 yrs and tried pressure rinse, hose rinse, citrus pre-wash with pressure rinse, citrus pre wash with hose rinse, KKD snow foam and honeydew snow foam and none cleaned as well as BH sprayed like this.

Consider me converted 

After far too many hours I left my GFs car like this. She was happy


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## Brian1612 (Apr 5, 2015)

cheekymonkey said:


> not my figures they are BH, personally dont go into the price per wash, more intrested in the results. to get a 4% panel finish it all depends on the water flow of your PW as to how much you use. I fined 250ml is more than enough to produce a good clean with 750 ml of water from that 1 ltr i get 2 good washes 3 if i am careful. that makes it about 43p a wash. Another plus for me is it cast only £17 delivered, instead of shelling out £50 for the same quantity.


Well those figures are nonsense used via snow foam lance. Your indeed correct, it costs only £17 for 5L but it's false economy which I will happily show again. It might be 5L but looking at it that way isn't the full story.

Obsession Blizzard 5L = £50. You use 20ml per bottle which 5000/20= 250 washes.

Auto foam 5L = £17. You use 250ml per bottle which 5000/250= 20 washes.

To get the equivalent 250 washes from Auto Foam you need 62.5L which equates to 12.5 x 5L bottles of auto foam. 12.5 x 17= £212.50.

Now I'll agree auto foam cleans a little bit better but it's not a huge difference and it certainly aint £162 worth when you compare them directly. I am happy to say auto foam cleans the best or at least one of the best but it is in no way, shape or form cheap when used through a lance. The £17 price tag is purely a marketing ploy.


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## cheekymonkey (Mar 15, 2008)

Brian1612 said:


> Well those figures are nonsense used via snow foam lance. Your indeed correct, it costs only £17 for 5L but it's false economy which I will happily show again. It might be 5L but looking at it that way isn't the full story.
> 
> Obsession Blizzard 5L = £50. You use 20ml per bottle which 5000/20= 250 washes.
> 
> ...


Well you will have to take them figures up with BH although i have always found they know what they are talking about.It is up to you what and why you use what you use, and you are also welcome to do what ever math you want to justify what you buy.
As i stated before i never need to use 250ml in a bottle, infact its well less than 200 ml, and from that bottle i get at least 2 washes so your estamate on the pricing on AF is way off. When i tried obsession found it needed more than 20 mil to do a decent wash


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## Brian1612 (Apr 5, 2015)

You said 250ml if you look at your previous post. Once again just making stuff up to make your argument look feasible when it's not. It also doesn’t matter how much washes you get from a bottle. You will get the same amount from that same bottle with obsession blizzard. The void in price won't change when used through a snow foam lance. Unlike you I provide evidence, figures and facts for everything I say. HOW can BH come to a 17p per wash price point when it has been calculated scientifically in another thread that 340ml was needed in a foam bottle. They are usually spot on but there figures are way off the mark here. The only way they could come to that conclusion is through a pump sprayer as a pre-wash and not a snow foam but as that's not what the OP asked or what we are disputing here it is irrelevant.

I am done proving my point on this subject. Again I proved as a snow foam it isn't cheap in the slightest compared to the rest of the market, not just obsession blizzard. You on the other hand proved nothing and simply pull figures out of fresh air. You can't have a debate with a reasonable outcome when someone chooses to behave as blindly as you do. It has an initial low cost but that is irrelevant if your using stupid amounts per wash. End of. 

If you really can't see that after what I have just calculated then your a very narrow minded individual who can't accept when he is wrong. I enjoy discussions and debates but when it moves away from facts/figures and into fairytale I tend to bail out. I don't want to read opinions that have no factual reasoning.


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## Brian1612 (Apr 5, 2015)

cheekymonkey said:


> not my figures they are BH, personally dont go into the price per wash, more intrested in the results. to get a 4% panel finish it all depends on the water flow of your PW as to how much you use. *I fined 250ml is more than enough to produce a good clean with 750 ml of water* from that 1 ltr i get 2 good washes 3 if i am careful. that makes it about 43p a wash. Another plus for me is it cast only £17 delivered, instead of shelling out £50 for the same quantity.


I will quote that here for you one last time and have highlighted what you said compared to what you are now saying.


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## cheekymonkey (Mar 15, 2008)

Brian1612 said:


> I will quote that here for you one last time and have highlighted what you said compared to what you are now saying.


you may need to read it again Brian it says i fined 250ml (what you quoted ) more than enough eg too much or more than i use.


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## cheekymonkey (Mar 15, 2008)

Brian1612 said:


> You said 250ml if you look at your previous post. Once again just making stuff up to make your argument look feasible when it's not. It also doesn't matter how much washes you get from a bottle. You will get the same amount from that same bottle with obsession blizzard. The void in price won't change when used through a snow foam lance. Unlike you I provide evidence, figures and facts for everything I say. HOW can BH come to a 17p per wash price point when it has been calculated scientifically in another thread that 340ml was needed in a foam bottle. They are usually spot on but there figures are way off the mark here. The only way they could come to that conclusion is through a pump sprayer as a pre-wash and not a snow foam but as that's not what the OP asked or what we are disputing here it is irrelevant.
> 
> I am done proving my point on this subject. Again I proved as a snow foam it isn't cheap in the slightest compared to the rest of the market, not just obsession blizzard. You on the other hand proved nothing and simply pull figures out of fresh air. You can't have a debate with a reasonable outcome when someone chooses to behave as blindly as you do. It has an initial low cost but that is irrelevant if your using stupid amounts per wash. End of.
> 
> If you really can't see that after what I have just calculated then your a very narrow minded individual who can't accept when he is wrong. I enjoy discussions and debates but when it moves away from facts/figures and into fairytale I tend to bail out. I don't want to read opinions that have no factual reasoning.


All you have proven is your own opinion.some of which is definitely wrong, some very biased. nothing else.:thumb:


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## Brian1612 (Apr 5, 2015)

Could you explain which part is biased? Or will you simply dodge that question like you did when I asked you to explain the figures previously? I can explain the BH figures but I am curious to see if you can? 

You said 250ml topped with 750ml of water was the amount to use as a snow foam (quoted) so I based my maths on that. I am sorry those figures don't help your argument and you now feel the need to change that figure to better support your opinion. If you wish, although not instructed by BH, you could use 100ml through a lance if you like but it still works out more expensive and it won't work anywhere near as good at that ratio. There is nothing biased about that, it is simply fact. 

Feel free to do the maths if you like but you'll get the exact same results as me. As a snow foam Auto Foam just doesn't cut it as the economy is shocking if used as designed. I don't see how you can possibly argue that point. The figures say it all. 

You claim I am biased yet I have said on countless occasions it's cleaning power is excellent and used as a pre-wash in a pump sprayer it is a very good product. Removing the foam lance from the equation makes it much more economical. The OP and debate YOU STARTED isn't about that though, it's about using it through a lance and that is what my opinion is based on here. 

Despite how good it cleans it doesn't negate the fact that as a snow foam, through a foam lance it's likely the most expensive foam on the market or minimum one of them. The £17 price point gives a false sense of economy. I appreciate your opinion on the products performance, your spot on with that but to suggest it is also cheap through a lance is very wrong.


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## Bilt-Hamber Lab (Apr 11, 2008)

Brian1612 said:


> Despite how good it cleans it doesn't negate the fact that as a snow foam, through a foam lance it's likely the most expensive foam on the market or minimum one of them. The £17 price point gives a false sense of economy. I appreciate your opinion on the products performance, your spot on with that but to suggest it is also cheap through a lance is very wrong.


I think I should again explain how to use this product correctly...

4% product in water provides very near to touch less cleaning - how it is delivered is largely irrelevant and it's wrong to suggest this product is likely the most expensive foam on the market. £16.95 for 5000ml retail inc VAT - 2 litres of a 4% solution is easily enough to wet a vehicle and in reality less would do but based on 2 litres of mix you need 80ml of auto-foam this costs just a fraction over 27p or 34p at 5%.

How much product needed in reservoir? Here's a spot on method;

You need 4 -5% at the panel not in the detergent bottle. You need to fill you detergent bottle full of plain water. Turn the detergent feed on full then discharge the lance into a container - keep going until the detergent bottle is empty of water. Measure the total amount of water collected. Work out 4- 5% of that - this is the amount of auto-foam you need to use in your bottle.

Now when the detergent feed is engaged it will deliver a 4 - 5% solution BUT you don't empty the entire reservoir on one car! This is where the waste is occurring and leading to dangerously unfair comments re this product. This is really quite simple to use. If you're still having difficulties please PM me and I'll explain in greater detail.


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## steelghost (Aug 20, 2015)

I think the delivery method is the point at issue here - I use Auto Foam via a pump sprayer and it's possible to be very precise about application and coverage. Via a foam lance, I think it's harder to be so precise, and economical even if you have your lance set up to deliver exactly 4% at the panel. 

I make up a 4% solution for my pump sprayer and usually use about 2.5l of that on my car each wash (it's a biggish car, and I also use it in the arches, on the wheels etc etc). That's about 100ml of Auto Foam. I suspect if I only used 100ml in a foam lance I might struggle to cover the whole vehicle - although I'll be honest I don't know for sure as have never used a foam lance.

If I'm honest it feels like BH might be better off marketing Auto Foam as a pre-wash that can also be used via a foam lance!


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## Bilt-Hamber Lab (Apr 11, 2008)

steelghost said:


> I think the delivery method is the point at issue here - I use Auto Foam via a pump sprayer and it's possible to be very precise about application and coverage. Via a foam lance, I think it's harder to be so precise, and economical even if you have your lance set up to deliver exactly 4% at the panel.
> 
> I make up a 4% solution for my pump sprayer and usually use about 2.5l of that on my car each wash (it's a biggish car, and I also use it in the arches, on the wheels etc etc). That's about 100ml of Auto Foam. I suspect if I only used 100ml in a foam lance I might struggle to cover the whole vehicle - although I'll be honest I don't know for sure as have never used a foam lance.
> 
> If I'm honest it feels like BH might be better off marketing Auto Foam as a pre-wash that can also be used via a foam lance!


We would never do this as countless users find the PW delivery method effortless and superior - it's really just a case of wetting the car with the solution - you can easily test how long it takes to fill 2 litres into a bucket with the detergent feed engaged. We always use PW to apply it takes less effort and once you know your equipment it child's play. And if you're watching the pennies its worth knowing what your equipment delivers - else you're just guessing.:thumb:


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## Brian1612 (Apr 5, 2015)

Bilt-Hamber Lab said:


> I think I should again explain how to use this product correctly...
> 
> 4% product in water provides very near to touch less cleaning - how it is delivered is largely irrelevant and it's wrong to suggest this product is likely the most expensive foam on the market. £16.95 for 5000ml retail inc VAT - 2 litres of a 4% solution is easily enough to wet a vehicle and in reality less would do but based on 2 litres of mix you need 80ml of auto-foam this costs just a fraction over 27p or 34p at 5%.
> 
> ...


I am quite aware of the instructions and what they mean but thanks for explaining again. Cheeky may find that useful. I believe 340ml was needed on the testing carried out on a thread on here via a snow foam lance the way you just described. I presume your figures are from a pump sprayer method which I have stated many times is much more efficient but not the OPs original question. Surely 40ml per 1L can't be through a lance as it isn't taking into account the dilution coming through the lance which is a substantial amount.

Again as I stated it's irrelevant how many washes you get from a 1L bottle. You'll get the same with any other foam if your careful using it. I can base it on 2 cars per bottle for both products but the figures are still miles apart.

Just found the thread in question. 340ml to 160ml water for 4% on the OPs lance hitting the panel. States 1-2 cars from that so 170ml per car if your careful?

http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=71201


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## Deje (Aug 12, 2016)

However, this calculation is accurate at large draw, at least with a smaller PW such a Karcher k2

Obsession Blizzard 5L = £ 50th You use 20ml per bottle Which 5000/20 = 250 washes.

Auto foam 5L = £ 17th You use 250ml per bottle Which 5000/250 = 20 washes.

My Karcher K2 and Lance makes about 1:10.

Both products are mixed in the 1L bottle, so it can cope with the equally numerous applications!

Even if using a spray bottle, the ratio is not changed.

Edit; You need to actually have 500 ml in a 1000 ml bottle at dilution ratio 1:10, to obtain a 4.5% solution


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## Bilt-Hamber Lab (Apr 11, 2008)

Brian1612 said:


> I am quite aware of the instructions and what they mean but thanks for explaining again. Cheeky may find that useful. I believe 340ml was needed on the testing carried out on a thread on here via a snow foam lance the way you just described. I presume your figures are from a pump sprayer method which I have stated many times is much more efficient but not the OPs original question. Surely 40ml per 1L can't be through a lance as it isn't taking into account the dilution coming through the lance which is a substantial amount.
> 
> Again as I stated it's irrelevant how many washes you get from a 1L bottle. You'll get the same with any other foam if your careful using it. I can base it on 2 cars per bottle for both products but the figures are still miles apart.


Hi Brian,

No the figures are for applying 2 litres of a 4% auto-foam mix. 2 litres easily wets an average sized car. How you get that 2 litres of 4% mix evenly applied to the soiled car is irrelevant. 340ml was probably the amount for that pressure washer detergent reservoir then topped to 1 litre - this then would feed into the stream to provide 4% PIR - the important part is NOT to over apply - so discharge 2 litres from the lance - that's sufficient to cover the car - let it dwell for as long as poss as the surfactant get a chance to "grab" the soil. Then pressure to clean off. Its certainly not irrelevant how many cars you get cleaned from each litre of auto-foam as this is what determines the very good value it offers as a touch-less wash


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## Brian1612 (Apr 5, 2015)

Bilt-Hamber Lab said:


> Hi Brian,
> 
> No the figures are for applying 2 litres of a 4% auto-foam mix. 2 litres easily wets an average sized car. How you get that 2 litres of 4% mix evenly applied to the soiled car is irrelevant. 340ml was probably the amount for that pressure washer detergent reservoir then topped to 1 litre - this then would feed into the stream to provide 4% PIR - the important part is NOT to over apply - so discharge 2 litres from the lance - that's sufficient to cover the car - let it dwell for as long as poss as the surfactant get a chance to "grab" the soil. Then pressure to clean off. Its certainly not irrelevant how many cars you get cleaned from each litre of auto-foam as this is what determines the very good value it offers as a touch-less wash


I think your missing my point. 40ml in 960ml within a snow foam lance bottle doesn't give you a 4% at panel as it is further diluted out the lance. The only way your figures make sense is in a pump sprayer that doesn't further dilute it. Reading your reply it seems you get what I am saying and have somewhat confirmed it without answering my points directly.

Again that point is irrelevant about the amont of cars you get from 1l. You get the same from any other snowfoam diluted in the snow foam bottle at the same lance setting. Also I'd expect around 600ml of snow foam dulutionos enough to coat a car so this 2L you keep stating is again OTT.


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## shine247 (Mar 1, 2010)

Bilt-Hamber Lab said:


> Hi Brian,
> 
> No the figures are for applying 2 litres of a 4% auto-foam mix. 2 litres easily wets an average sized car. How you get that 2 litres of 4% mix evenly applied to the soiled car is irrelevant. 340ml was probably the amount for that pressure washer detergent reservoir then topped to 1 litre - this then would feed into the stream to provide 4% PIR - the important part is NOT to over apply - so discharge 2 litres from the lance - that's sufficient to cover the car - let it dwell for as long as poss as the surfactant get a chance to "grab" the soil. Then pressure to clean off. Its certainly not irrelevant how many cars you get cleaned from each litre of auto-foam as this is what determines the very good value it offers as a touch-less wash


Fully understood, 2L in total, about 200ml from the bottle, the rest from the supply.


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## Bilt-Hamber Lab (Apr 11, 2008)

Brian1612 said:


> I think your missing my point. 40ml in 960ml within a snow foam lance bottle doesn't give you a 4% at panel as it is further diluted out the lance. The only way your figures make sense is in a pump sprayer that doesn't further dilute it. Reading your reply it seems you get what I am saying and have somewhat confirmed it without answering my points directly.
> 
> Again that point is irrelevant about the amont of cars you get from 1l. You get the same from any other snowfoam diluted in the snow foam bottle at the same lance setting. Also I'd expect around 600ml of snow foam dulutionos enough to coat a car so this 2L you keep stating is again OTT.


Brian you need to follow the instruction in my previous post on how to calculate your machine's dilution rates. My figures are perfectly accurate for a PW delivery...

The figure is accurate for pump sprayer or lance provided 2 litres of liquid comes out of the nozzle at 4%. To get 4% in a pump sprayer you make a straight 4% solution to get 4% from a PW you need to know the dilution rate (follow method already posted) It's still 80ml product hitting the car with every 2 litres delivered to the panel.

Now the reason we make auto-foam in its current concentration is that it's impossible to make it more concentrated wihout the formulation falling apart - we can of course make a nice heavy foam at super concentation but they simply don't work. We don't make products that don't perform - rather we make products that work. If you prefer... PM me your telephone number and talk you through the method so that I can be sure you understand how to use the product as the comments you've made above and repeatedly before demontrate I'm not making this clear enough. Thanks

Pete


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## neilmcl (Mar 26, 2010)

shine247 said:


> Fully understood, 2L in total, about 200ml from the bottle, the rest from the supply.


That's how I was reading it, not sure why others are having difficulties.


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## neilmcl (Mar 26, 2010)

Bilt-Hamber Lab said:


> It's still 80ml product hitting the car with every 2 litres delivered to the panel.


This the key, although I think the problem when most people use it via a lance is that they tend to use more than 2L in total, a lot of wasted. Personally I prefer the pump sprayer method because I can apply the product more accurately and know exactly how much is going on the car.


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## Guest (Jan 9, 2017)

DrEskimo said:


> Here are my results from cleaning the GFs Mini today.
> 
> Mixed BH auto-foam 10:1 in a spray bottle with warm water, left to dwell for about 10mins.
> 
> ...


They were my same thoughts after 1st using it to, I like and use a canny bit of kkd stuff also, like how there stuff does exactly as it says on the tin so to speak, but after the foam used up tried there citrus magic and used that as my previous winter pre wash, although it cleans very well i don't use it nearly as much as BH AF now, it takes some beating AF


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## Hereisphilly (Nov 17, 2014)

neilmcl said:


> This the key, although I think the problem when most people use it via a lance is that they tend to use more than 2L in total, a lot of wasted. Personally I prefer the pump sprayer method because I can apply the product more accurately and know exactly how much is going on the car.


Yeah i think you have hit the nail on the head

Trying to get just 2l of product all over car with a PW lance is going to be difficult, as you can't reduce the overall flow of the PW, which is the driving force in this system

I find that I use 1/3 to 1/2 of a lance bottle to evenly coat a decent sized car, even though I know the vast majority of volume of this is over and above what's required to do the job, I just can't put any less on, without missing areas of the car

It's just testament to how the good the product is, that only 2l is actually required

Sent from my XT1635-02 using Tapatalk


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## Bilt-Hamber Lab (Apr 11, 2008)

neilmcl said:


> This the key, although I think the problem when most people use it via a lance is that they tend to use more than 2L in total, a lot of wasted. Personally I prefer the pump sprayer method because I can apply the product more accurately and know exactly how much is going on the car.


Ah this is a key point - it really is easy to over do it due the ease of pulling a trigger rather than pumping a sprayer. But you can soon adjust once you know how long 2 litres takes to produce from the nozzle. Don't try to "wash" the car with detergent feed on - just wet the car all over. 2 litres is easy enough You can even time how long your PW takes to produce 2 litres into a bucket:thumb:


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## Deje (Aug 12, 2016)

Bilt-Hamber Lab said:


> Ah this is a key point - it really is easy to over do it due the ease of pulling a trigger rather than pumping a sprayer. But you can soon adjust once you know how long 2 litres takes to produce from the nozzle. Don't try to "wash" the car with detergent feed on - just wet the car all over. 2 litres is easy enough You can even time how long your PW takes to produce 2 litres into a bucket:thumb:


But you cover the car with the same amount, regardless of the detergent solution consists of.
Therefore, it is irrelevant, the economy is in how the product can be diluted.
Given that the product works!


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## padhinbed (Sep 2, 2016)

Another vote for Autofoam. Maybe add abit of BH Auto Wash in aswell. Not much foam to see and runs quickly but works wonders. All about using the right concentration though and it can take a few attempts to work out whats best for you personally.

My AD foam lance needs about 70-80ml to 600ml of hot water in the lance bottle to give me the mix I like.


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## Hereisphilly (Nov 17, 2014)

Bilt-Hamber Lab said:


> Ah this is a key point - it really is easy to over do it due the ease of pulling a trigger rather than pumping a sprayer. But you can soon adjust once you know how long 2 litres takes to produce from the nozzle. Don't try to "wash" the car with detergent feed on - just wet the car all over. 2 litres is easy enough You can even time how long your PW takes to produce 2 litres into a bucket:thumb:


I'll have to try that, I for one am used to just blanketing it, but if all you need is to wet the car then I'll have to give it a go and see how quickly I can get through 2l :thumb:

Sent from my XT1635-02 using Tapatalk


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## GleemSpray (Jan 26, 2014)

I measured my flow rates some time back and will put them here, in case they are of some assistance to others: 

My Karcher K4, with AutoBrite foam lance attached, puts out 6.5 litres per minute through the nozzle. 

500ml of that 6.5L per minute comes from the lance bottle, when mixture is set to max. That means (if I have my maths correct !) it is mixing the bottle contents at 12:1 or 7.7% mix of chemical to water.

To get Autofoam hitting the car at 4%, I would need 260ml of neat Autofoam in the bottle, topped off with 140ml of water and that would give me one minutes worth of foaming action to cover the car with. I reckon i could get away with half that amount and succesfully foam the whole car in 30 seconds of careful blasting, so would then use about 130ml of Autofoam

In a pump sprayer, I use about 1.5 - 2 litres to easily fully cover the car, which means 80ml of Autofoam to give 4%. I usually also use warm water, which seems to help it clean better.

I couldn’t honestly say if Autofoam works better via a foam lance or via pump sprayer – I can say that it works very well by either method.


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## neilmcl (Mar 26, 2010)

Bilt-Hamber Lab said:


> Ah this is a key point - it really is easy to over do it due the ease of pulling a trigger rather than pumping a sprayer. But you can soon adjust once you know how long 2 litres takes to produce from the nozzle. Don't try to "wash" the car with detergent feed on - just wet the car all over. 2 litres is easy enough You can even time how long your PW takes to produce 2 litres into a bucket:thumb:


I think a lot of people think that they've filled up their foam lance bottle so they have to empty it all, so instead of using, for example the 2L of combined foam and water mix it would take to do an average car they end up using 2/3 times as much.

Incidentally while you're here, would you recommended using the product on a dry car or is it advisable to rinse the car first, especially if used via a pump sprayer?


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## Brian1612 (Apr 5, 2015)

GleemSpray said:


> I measured my flow rates some time back and will put them here, in case they are of some assistance to others:
> 
> My Karcher K4, with AutoBrite foam lance attached, puts out 6.5 litres per minute through the nozzle.
> 
> ...


Exactly this. I don't understand why it's so difficult to understand. If you follow what Bilt hamber say using a lance you do not get 4% hitting the panek. Fill 40ml to 960ml water then it is 4%. It is then further diluted coming out the end of the lance. That is it in a nutshell so that 4% in the bottle is not even close to 4% hitting the car. :wall:


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## Bilt-Hamber Lab (Apr 11, 2008)

Deje said:


> But you cover the car with the same amount, regardless of the detergent solution consists of.
> Therefore, it is irrelevant, the economy is in how the product can be diluted.
> Given that the product works!


It's vitally important that you cover the car with a 4 - 5% solution of auto-foam in water for touchless cleaning. So if you use 2 litres of solution made from a correctly fed PW you have used 80ml auto-foam - if you use 4 litres ( way too much) it's 160ml This really is very important, to fully understand this otherwise you just waste product. Do not guess your PW's dilution rate or instructions on how to use this product. Economy is what the product costs to cover the car at the correct rate and 80ml makes 2 litre mix and that costs 27p :thumb:


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## Bilt-Hamber Lab (Apr 11, 2008)

Brian1612 said:


> Exactly this. I don't understand why it's so difficult to understand. If you follow what Bilt hamber say using a lance you do not get 4% hitting the panek. Fill 40ml to 960ml water then it is 4%. It is then further diluted coming out the end of the lance. That is it in a nutshell so that 4% in the bottle is not even close to 4% hitting the car. :wall:


Brian you need to read and understand my very clear instructions that I've already posted on working out dilitions - with respect you'll see why you are confused - you're way off getting this. Which is a shame as you set up to review products


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## Bilt-Hamber Lab (Apr 11, 2008)

neilmcl said:


> I think a lot of people think that they've filled up their foam lance bottle so they have to empty it all, so instead of using, for example the 2L of combined foam and water mix it would take to do an average car they end up using 2/3 times as much.
> 
> Incidentally while you're here, would you recommended using the product on a dry car or is it advisable to rinse the car first, especially if used via a pump sprayer?


Always, where possible, a dry car otherwise you'll further dilute the surfactants which will reduce cleaning power


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## Brian1612 (Apr 5, 2015)

So you are proposing by getting the flow just right using the nozzle 80ml of neat auto foam in a lance, mixed with 1920ml coming out a lance is enough to coat a standad sized car? I'm sorry but that is rubbish. Via a sprayer that is more precise yes but a lance you don't have the same level of control. 

I see what you are saying with your maths now but it simply isn't possible in my own opinion.


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## shine247 (Mar 1, 2010)

If your pw sprays exactly 10L into a bucket including the 1L foam lance bottle by the time it is empty then you put 400Ml in the bottle, the rest is then water. 400ml is 4% of the 10L.
Whatever you hit the car with is 4% from then on whether you use a 1/4 of the bottle or 3/4 of the bottle.


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## neilmcl (Mar 26, 2010)

Brian1612 said:


> So you are proposing by getting the flow just right using the nozzle 80ml of neat auto foam in a lance, mixed with 1920ml coming out a lance is enough to coat a standad sized car? I'm sorry but that is rubbish. Via a sprayer that is more precise yes but a lance you don't have the same level of control.
> 
> I see what you are saying with your maths now but it simply isn't possible in my own opinion.


Why not try it. :thumb:


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## Brian1612 (Apr 5, 2015)

I don't need to Neil. I have seen how much I use coating my tiny abarth and I don't go wild like some filling the bottle fully, nor do I do the wheels or arches. Again I will say it's a cracking product through a pump sprayer but through a lance it's cost doesn't represent good value to me. I plan to buy 5L of surfex so have no agenda against Bilt Hamber, I know its a terrific company but Auto-foam makes little sense to me as a snow foam. Would be better marketed as 'auto pre-wash'.


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## Brian1612 (Apr 5, 2015)

shine247 said:


> If your pw sprays exactly 10L into a bucket including the 1L foam lance bottle by the time it is empty then you put 400Ml in the bottle, the rest is then water. 400ml is 4% of the 10L.
> Whatever you hit the car with is 4% from then on whether you use a 1/4 of the bottle or 3/4 of the bottle.


Exactly what I have said but I keep getting told that isn't the case.


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## Bilt-Hamber Lab (Apr 11, 2008)

shine247 said:


> If your pw sprays exactly 10L into a bucket including the 1L foam lance bottle by the time it is empty then you put 400Ml in the bottle, the rest is then water. 400ml is 4% of the 10L.
> Whatever you hit the car with is 4% from then on whether you use a 1/4 of the bottle or 3/4 of the bottle.


Spot on!


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## Brian1612 (Apr 5, 2015)

Bilt-Hamber Lab said:


> Spot on!


I have said this countless times... :thumb:

Thanks for finally confirming my thoughts.


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## neilmcl (Mar 26, 2010)

Brian1612 said:


> I have said this countless times... :thumb:
> 
> Thanks for finally confirming my thoughts.


But what you've failed to get your head around is, taking the example above, you wouldn't be emptying the lance bottle and using the whole 400ml on a single car, you would probably only need less than a 1/4 of that bottle for a full car and therefore use only 80-100ml of product.


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## Bilt-Hamber Lab (Apr 11, 2008)

Brian1612 said:


> So you are proposing by getting the flow just right using the nozzle 80ml of neat auto foam in a lance, mixed with 1920ml coming out a lance is enough to coat a standad sized car? I'm sorry but that is rubbish. Via a sprayer that is more precise yes but a lance you don't have the same level of control.
> 
> I see what you are saying with your maths now but it simply isn't possible in my own opinion.


No Im saying fill you lance or reservoir with PLAIN water - discharge the lance into a bucket and measure what you've got. THEN work out 4% of your bucket content - THIS is the amount of auto-foam add to your lance. Then when you engage detergent feed you're making 4% at the panel each and every time you deliver the product. If you aim the lance in one spot you'll consume the entire lot and not cover the car. If you work efficiently you can cover the car in 2 litres of mix which, if you've followed the correct method, will be 80ml.

There's no reason at all why a pump sprayer will wet the car more efficiently it's just SLOWER at discharge so you need to move more speedily with the lance - which if you are working multiple cars is very important financially - as time, of course, costs more that the foam that this entire debate has centred around with regard to its economic feasibility. Now couple the application speed of a lance with the exceptional cleaning and reduced bucket wash requirement and virtual elimination of marr inflicting residue left by auto-foam and I am astonished at the criticism with regard its cost.


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## Brian1612 (Apr 5, 2015)

Brian1612 said:


> I think your missing my point. 40ml in 960ml within a snow foam lance bottle doesn't give you a 4% at panel as it is further diluted out the lance. The only way your figures make sense is in a pump sprayer that doesn't further dilute it. Reading your reply it seems you get what I am saying and have somewhat confirmed it without answering my points directly.
> 
> *Again that point is irrelevant about the amont of cars you get from 1l. You get the same from any other snowfoam diluted in the snow foam bottle at the same lance setting. Also I'd expect around 600ml of snow foam dulutionos enough to coat a car so this 2L you keep stating is again OTT.*


I did infact mention that and take it into account ages ago. Lets say you get two cars from that 400ml nozzle fully open for 4% on the panel. My example pointed out that my other comparison is 20ml to 980ml. 1L is enough for two cars with the foam turned up full so yes, you can double the total washes for both 5L bottles. It doesn't change the outcome about value.

You can grab a typical foam at 25 quid and use 1" or 110ml and fill it to 1L. Again that does the same two cars but your using 110ml instead of 400ml.


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## cheekymonkey (Mar 15, 2008)

Bilt-Hamber Lab said:


> No Im saying fill you lance or reservoir with PLAIN water - discharge the lance into a bucket and measure what you've got. THEN work out 4% of your bucket content - THIS is the amount of auto-foam add to your lance. Then when you engage detergent feed you're making 4% at the panel each and every time you deliver the product. If you aim the lance in one spot you'll consume the entire lot and not cover the car. If you work efficiently you can cover the car in 2 litres of mix which, if you've followed the correct method, will be 80ml.
> 
> There's no reason at all why a pump sprayer will wet the car more efficiently it's just SLOWER at discharge so you need to move more speedily with the lance - which if you are working multiple cars is very important financially - as time, of course, costs more that the foam that this entire debate has centred around with regard to its economic feasibility. Now couple the application speed of a lance with the exceptional cleaning and reduced bucket wash requirement and virtual elimination of marr inflicting residue left by auto-foam and I am astonished at the criticism with regard its cost.


Thanks for clearing that up, so when used right you only use 80ml of auto foam if used at 4%.


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## Brian1612 (Apr 5, 2015)

Bilt-Hamber Lab said:


> No Im saying fill you lance or reservoir with PLAIN water - discharge the lance into a bucket and measure what you've got. THEN work out 4% of your bucket content - THIS is the amount of auto-foam add to your lance. Then when you engage detergent feed you're making 4% at the panel each and every time you deliver the product. If you aim the lance in one spot you'll consume the entire lot and not cover the car. If you work efficiently you can cover the car in 2 litres of mix which, if you've followed the correct method, will be 80ml.
> 
> There's no reason at all why a pump sprayer will wet the car more efficiently it's just SLOWER at discharge so you need to move more speedily with the lance - which if you are working multiple cars is very important financially - as time, of course, costs more that the foam that this entire debate has centred around with regard to its economic feasibility. Now couple the application speed of a lance with the exceptional cleaning and reduced bucket wash requirement and virtual elimination of marr inflicting residue left by auto-foam and I am astonished at the criticism with regard its cost.


If you read my comments you would have seen I have said this already. I know the figures, I done the maths. The discrepancy comes from the fact that you believe it's possible to use only 2L to coat your car from a highly wasteful and thirsty foam lance. I don't.

Happy to test out your theory though to see if it's possible


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## cheekymonkey (Mar 15, 2008)

Brian1612 said:


> Could you explain which part is biased? Or will you simply dodge that question like you did when I asked you to explain the figures previously? I can explain the BH figures but I am curious to see if you can?
> 
> *You said 250ml topped with 750ml of water was the amount to use as a snow foam (quoted) so I based my maths on that.* I am sorry those figures don't help your argument and you now feel the need to change that figure to better support your opinion. If you wish, although not instructed by BH, you could use 100ml through a lance if you like but it still works out more expensive and it won't work anywhere near as good at that ratio. There is nothing biased about that, it is simply fact.
> 
> ...


once again i did not say that i said 250ml was more than enough, as in to much. the 250ml was what you stated not me. i used your maths to prove that even at that rate yoiur maths were wrong.
As for the biased you quote the amount needed for bh at the optimum amount needed 4% which is at the higher end of the dilution rate, yet you use the minimum amount needed for the obsession. for it to be fair you need to use the equally. if you state bh at the 4% you need to used the amount of obsession that matches the same cleaning power of BH at 4%


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## Brian1612 (Apr 5, 2015)

cheekymonkey said:


> not my figures they are BH, personally dont go into the price per wash, more intrested in the results. to get a 4% panel finish it all depends on the water flow of your PW as to how much you use. I fined 250ml is more than enough to produce a good clean with 750 ml of water from that 1 ltr i get 2 good washes 3 if i am careful. that makes it about 43p a wash. Another plus for me is it cast only £17 delivered, instead of shelling out £50 for the same quantity.


Once again, lies.

I am done with this mate. BH are worth debating with as they know what they are talking about even if I don't agree with it. You don't. You didn't prove my maths wrong. If you look at several other posts from other members they came to the same conclusion. Finally Obsession blizzard can be used as little as 10ml.


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## Bilt-Hamber Lab (Apr 11, 2008)

Brian1612 said:


> If you read my comments you would have seen I have said this already. I know the figures, I done the maths. The discrepancy comes from the fact that you believe it's possible to use only 2L to coat your car from a highly wasteful and thirsty foam lance. I don't.
> 
> Happy to test out your theory though to see if it's possible


This is not a theory we test each and every one of our products very carefully and do so on a continual basis. The lance is only thirsty or wasteful if you are not letting it distribute the product over the surface evenly - this is not guess work but fact. If the lance is discharging the reservoir so quickly it cannot be controlled then its not suitable and will eat through any surfactant too quickly.


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## cheekymonkey (Mar 15, 2008)

Brian1612 said:


> Once again, lies.
> 
> I am done with this mate. BH are worth debating with as they know what they are talking about even if I don't agree with it. You don't. You didn't prove my maths wrong. If you look at several other posts from other members they came to the same conclusion. Finally Obsession blizzard can be used as little as 10ml.


what ever, you wont let the truth get in the way of your obsession against auto foam. you can use any snow foam at 10 ml, it working is another thing, blizzard doesnt clean as good as auto foam even at 40ml whats the point of the 10ml.:wall:
As for other members think you will find the majority love autofoam

Dont accuse me off lies It clearly says 250ml is more than enough and not the amount i use.
to be fair figures need to be like for like yours are defiantly not. your maths is wrong whether you are big enough to admit it or not


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## Hawkesybaby (Jun 17, 2016)

Why does every snowfoam thread turn into a pump sprayer vs foam lance argument? Or a BH ruuuuulez?

I love a good debate or a conversation but it happens on everyone lately it seems!


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## cheekymonkey (Mar 15, 2008)

Hawkesybaby said:


> Why does every snowfoam thread turn into a pump sprayer vs foam lance argument? Or a BH ruuuuulez?
> 
> I love a good debate or a conversation but it happens on everyone lately it seems!


because BH does rule  :lol::lol::lol::lol:


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## Cookies (Dec 10, 2008)

Sounds like an argument to me...






Sent from my D6603


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## cheekymonkey (Mar 15, 2008)

got to love monty


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## DrEskimo (Jan 7, 2016)

Cookies said:


> Sounds like an argument to me...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No it doesn't...


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## sm81 (May 14, 2011)

Blizzard is good but Autofoam is slightly better regarding cleaning capasity. Imo.


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## Cookies (Dec 10, 2008)

DrEskimo said:


> No it doesn't...


Yes it does.

Sent from my D6603


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## Brian1612 (Apr 5, 2015)

sm81 said:


> Blizzard is good but Autofoam is slightly better regarding cleaning capasity. Imo.


I agree.

On a positive note there will be more on this in the future


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## cheekymonkey (Mar 15, 2008)

sm81 said:


> Blizzard is good but Autofoam is slightly better regarding cleaning capasity. Imo.


And better cleaning means less chance of marring while washing:thumb:


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## chongo (Jun 7, 2014)

Cookies said:


> Yes it does.
> 
> Sent from my D6603


What does


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## Deje (Aug 12, 2016)

Bilt-Hamber Lab said:


> It's vitally important that you cover the car with a 4 - 5% solution of auto-foam in water for touchless cleaning. So if you use 2 litres of solution made from a correctly fed PW you have used 80ml auto-foam - if you use 4 litres ( way too much) it's 160ml This really is very important, to fully understand this otherwise you just waste product. Do not guess your PW's dilution rate or instructions on how to use this product. Economy is what the product costs to cover the car at the correct rate and 80ml makes 2 litre mix and that costs 27p :thumb:


If you buy a juice diluted 1:10, you have 11L drinkable juice.
And buying another equally good juice diluted 1: 100, you have 101L drinkable juice.
If you then spill the juice's nothing that affects the price per liter!

Obs!The example is based on buying 1L concentrate!


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## mustang-owner (May 8, 2011)

Hi all,

I just thought I’d add my experience here.
Sorry it doesn’t specifically answer the OP’s original question regarding differences, although as some have advised, I too would recommend Bilt Hamber's Auto Foam.

It takes considerable effort to use snowfoam correctly.
Using snowfoam for asthetic effect (masses of foam covering the car and looking amazing) isn't the way most biochemists interested in the cleaning properties expected it to be used (but it does look nice) 
For the vast majority of foams that are "built" to clean, they are supposed to coat the dirt, lift it from the surface, capture it, and let it drain along with the product as the product falls off the vehicle.
Dwell time should always be monitored to ensure the product on the vehicle paintwork never starts to dry.

The most important detail in whatever product you choose is to use the correct PIR percentage.
Too little product and you'll be disappointed in the results.
Too much product and you'll be disappointed in the cost.

There are far too many products that specify "use about 1 inch in your lance bottle" without offering the thought that the user must consider the PW's mixing ratio, or specifing the amount of mixed product coming out of the lance head that it is anticipated will be needed to coat an average sized vehicle - I've no idea why it is expected that the consumer should work this out for themselves through trial-and-error, while investing their hard-earned ££ in a product - crazy logic and lazy suppliers - but somehow passionate hobbyists seem to fall for this nonsense all the time.
Rant over - apologies 

You will notice later down this post that, to achieve the claims of Bilt Hamber, I only have just over 13 seconds on the trigger of my specific PW to wet all areas of my car that I want to enjoy Auto Foam cleaning.
I can achieve this, but it took practice and does not include wheels or inner arches.
I only clean my own vehicles and they're medium sized (Audi A2 and Fiat Stilo Abarth).
Prior to actually using Auto Foam, as a test, I used plain water in my lance bottle and gauged how I would need to move around my vehicles to achieve a 2L usage (13.3 seconds).
I've always known the flow rate of my PW, so I understood the time I had to play with.

The Bilt Hamber Auto Foam is not a touchless detailing product, however it does do an exceptional job of lifting and shifting dirt, so it's not an untruth to suggest it is a touchless cleaning aid.

I run a Karcher K6.50 @ 130 bar pressure and 530l/h flow rate along with an AutoBrite foam lance.
My PW pushes out 9L per minute at the foam lance head.
It takes 18L of fluid captured in a vessel to empty the 1L AB foam lance bottle, So my dilution ratio works out at 18:1 through the AB lance.

Below are my figures to achieve specific Panel Impact Ratios (PIR) of the product in the 1L AB lance bottle:

4% PIR = 720ml of product and 280ml water
4.5% PIR = 810ml of product and 190ml water
5% PIR = 900ml of product and 100ml water

Considering my PW flow rate the following is fact:

1. 2 litres of a mixture of product exiting my lance = 13.3 seconds of delivery.
2. 2 litres of a mixture of product exiting my lance = 111ml of fluid out of the 1L lance bottle.
3. 9 "snowfoam sessions" can be used from 1 full mix in my lance bottle.
4. 7 lance bottle mixes at 4% PIR can be obtained from the 5lL concentrate.
5. 5.5 lance bottle mixes at 5% PIR can be obtained from the 5lL concentrate.

Real-life cost at specific PIR %

4% PIR = 27p per 2L mix (recommended volume for a single average car)
5% PIR = 34p per 2L mix (recommended volume for a single average car)

I live in the country and drive a mixture of country lanes and A roads.
I travel approx. 300 miles per week and the car is washed weekly.
I am not a professional detailer, but i am a passionate enthusiast with a pride in what I own.
At the recommended product volume usage and mix ratio I am very pleased with the results when washing weekly.

I hope this is useful.

Cheers
Jeff


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## TMX (Jan 1, 2017)

Thanks Jeff.

My Snowfoam lance arrived in the post today from Clean and Shiny.
I ended up ordering some BH Auto Foam and some Orchard Autocare Cotton Candy foam.
Neither have arrived in the post yet...

I'm not sure it's worthy of starting a thread but has anyone found a glass sealant that makes defrosting the car easier/preventing ice from forming on the outside glass? Does such a thing exist?

I've got Gummi pflege on the rubber seals (Subaru frameless windows) and the difference is incredible - no more sticking doors in the mornings !
Also got myself some BH clay to play with too when it warms up.

Now to figure out a bodywork and a glass surface protection coating/sealant/wax.........


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## Cookies (Dec 10, 2008)

You won't be disappointed with the Cotton Candy. I've spoken with Rollo (the owner of Orchard Autocare) and he advised that it's a very economical product. It says on the label to dilute for final concentration of 100:1. Jeff has calculated this out very accurately above - Cheers Jeff, a very comprehensive response. I actually must see how it works out for the cotton Candy by comparison. 

Up until now, I've put approx 100ml in the lance bottle, assuming that the lance dilutes at 10:1. I'll do a few calculations later today and report back. 

Cheers. 

Cooks 

Sent from my D6603


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## Deje (Aug 12, 2016)

mustang owner wrote:

It takes 18L of fluid captured in a vessel to empty the 1L AB foam lance bottle, So my dilution ratio works out at 18:1 through the AB lance.

Sorry, but my OCD kicks in, if the total amount is 18 liters, the dilution ratio is 1:17?
1L AB foam lance bottle + 17 liters to empty the foam lance bottle.


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## steelghost (Aug 20, 2015)

Deje said:


> mustang owner wrote:
> 
> It takes 18L of fluid captured in a vessel to empty the 1L AB foam lance bottle, So my dilution ratio works out at 18:1 through the AB lance.
> 
> ...


Depends how the ratio is defined ie is it the total volume of fluid, or the water used to dilute the detergent. Mustang owner has used the former definition, it seems.


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## shine247 (Mar 1, 2010)

@Jeff

Hi Jeff, thank you for your post. I wondered if you could answer this? 

As you are the only person who appears to have narrowed this down to a fine art (that I have seen at least) can I ask if you get round the car in one go or do you stop and start as you change position and side etc.?

The reason I ask is because to be so accurate with this procedure and get the correct mix on the car you need a constant flow. Each time I stop my pw and restart there is a delay in product due to the product needing time to be sucked back up the tube in the foam lance via the venturi. This means if you stopped 6-7 times as I typically do to change angle then a good portion of what will hit the car out of that 13 seconds or so of "gun on" is water only.

When you are not having to be so precise, you can just go over an area again until foam has restarted. In fact I start my pw a little off the vehicle until product is being sprayed then move to the car surface.

I just wondered how you may see in relation to what you do. I am certainly not questioning your procedure but you seem best placed to answer this.

Thank you in advance.


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## Brian1612 (Apr 5, 2015)

Deje said:


> mustang owner wrote:
> 
> It takes 18L of fluid captured in a vessel to empty the 1L AB foam lance bottle, So my dilution ratio works out at 18:1 through the AB lance.
> 
> ...


If the total amount is 18 litres, that includes the 1L from the foam bottle. Simply calculate 4% of 18 litres which is 18'0000 x 0.04 = 720ml.

You simply top that 720ml up with water back to the original 1L mark and you have a 4% PIR mixture.

It is indeed 1:17 though to answer the question


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## Brian1612 (Apr 5, 2015)

mustang-owner said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I just thought I'd add my experience here.
> Sorry it doesn't specifically answer the OP's original question regarding differences, although as some have advised, I too would recommend Bilt Hamber's Auto Foam.
> ...


This is exactly what I plan to test in an upcoming review


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## GleemSpray (Jan 26, 2014)

mustang-owner said:


> Hi all,
> There are far too many products that specify "use about 1 inch in your lance bottle" without offering the thought that the user must consider the PW's mixing ratio, or specifying the amount of mixed product coming out of the lance head that it is anticipated will be needed to coat an average sized vehicle


Indeed ! And for those of us with an AutoBrite HD foam Lance, i measured this in the past and can tell you that 1" = 100ml and 2" = 240ml, because of the curved base of the bottle, if this info is of any use to anyone who wants to get it exact.


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## mustang-owner (May 8, 2011)

Hi guys,

Thanks for the replies.

Just to clarify - my 18:1 is correct for my situation. The fluid captured was minus the 1 litre in the lance bottle.

@steelghost managed to articulate what I failed to do, thank you :thumb:

@shine247
It is *not* possible, with my system, to move around either of my vehicles in a single and continuous trigger pull within the timeframe to achieve a 2L mix usage.
However, my application does not function in the same manner as yours.
I do have to initially wait for the product to be sucked through the tube and start to exit the lance head, but when I release the trigger and then start again, the mix is ready instantly.
I had similar concerns though, and when I tested my setup I used florist's water dye to colour the fluid in the lance bottle. I then tied a white sheet to a wall in my garden and used my full pw setup to simulate what would occur if I stopped the flow momentarily while I changed between roof/bonnet to the side of my car.
I did not time the length of pauses, but it was a realistic time (probably around 5 seconds).
The purple dye was instantly available each time I pulled the trigger.

I should also say that during the winter time when there is a lot more "sticky" grime about, I use a 5% PIR.
If I want to include my wheels and arches I typically use another 1L of mix - about 1.5 seconds to wet each of the 4 areas.

Please don't get me wrong - this isn't about the cost of the product for me, it is more about making sure I am effective with my time and that I achieve the level of wash I expect the product to deliver.

I have used Bilt Hamber Auto Foam the way many would, just use it (but making sure the PIR was correct). It's easy to drain 500ml from the lance bottle to do either of my modestly size cars (about 5 times the volume actually needed), but there is no discernible difference in the cleanliness of the paint than if I work smart.
It is difficult to make accurate comparisons with these types of products, because so many factors differ, such as:

Same car but the following week - different dirt.
2 cars looking similarly dirty - different paint or detail levels on each
Doing a 50/50 - close, but still not the same paint.

13.3 seconds is my goal for my specific pw and lance combo, or 20 seconds to include the wheels and arches.
Dwell time depends on weather and dirt conditions, but I do not leave the product on for much longer than 5 minutes.

This is a good forum and there's nothing wrong with some spirited debate, but that must be respectful.

I will also add I've no connection to Bilt Hamber, other than I purchase some of their products because I find they deliver what is suggested.

P.S.
Brian - I hope you're fitter than i am, because you'll need to move that lance quickly when you review :lol:

Cheers
Jeff


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## Brian1612 (Apr 5, 2015)

I get just over 20 seconds of spray as my flow rate is lower than yours. Certainly need to stop and start with either side of the car plus front and back. Will require some quick hands and feet I suspect


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## neilmcl (Mar 26, 2010)

Remember, according to the official advice, you only have to "wet" the car with BH AF. 2-3 swipes with a wide nozzle spray pattern should be enough to cover a side of an average sized car so as long as you're not keeping the trigger pressed all the way round I think it should be achievable to only use 2L of mixed foam.


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## Brian1612 (Apr 5, 2015)

To manage it I think one, consistent speed pass should do an even coat on the front, back and sides plus a single pass along the roof. 3-4 seconds per pass, sounds plausible. Could always increase hand movement speed but reduce the spray pattern slightly, try getting two passes but at a much higher pass rate.


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## shine247 (Mar 1, 2010)

mustang-owner said:


> @shine247
> It is *not* possible, with my system, to move around either of my vehicles in a single and continuous trigger pull within the timeframe to achieve a 2L mix usage.
> However, my application does not function in the same manner as yours.


OK Jeff, just to say thank you for your reply. I suppose it has raised another question in that your application functions differently to mine using either of my two standard PA foam lances but the temporary loss of full mix must be luck of the draw.

Clearly you have done your testing with the dye etc. and it is really good you considered it as I have never seen it mentioned before myself, it may well have been. I will just work round it with whatever I do at the time. 

Bye the way, I will just add I have full respect for someone who posts as you did and if you have read this thread you will see I am right with you. Looks as though we both like Mustangs too


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## mustang-owner (May 8, 2011)

shine247 said:


> OK Jeff, just to say thank you for your reply. I suppose it has raised another question in that your application functions differently to mine using either of my two standard PA foam lances but the temporary loss of full mix must be luck of the draw.
> 
> Clearly you have done your testing with the dye etc. and it is really good you considered it as I have never seen it mentioned before myself, it may well have been. I will just work round it with whatever I do at the time.
> 
> Bye the way, I will just add I have full respect for someone who posts as you did and if you have read this thread you will see I am right with you. Looks as though we both like Mustangs too


No problem - you're welcome.

The only reson I decided to test with the dye was because of the limitations of time, if I wanted to get as close to Bilt Hamber's recommendation as possible. I was sure my lance behaved the way it did, but I had the dye and an old sheet anyway, so it only took 5 mins to verify my initial thoughts were correct.
I haven't read anything on this subject before either, so perhaps it's something others might comment on.

Thanks for the respectful words.
This is a good forum that has some very stong ego's, but the "difference of opinion" can sometimes turn very personal.
I'm sure it puts some folk off of posting incase they're flamed for their views, but I do appreciate mod-lite approach of the moderators.

Unfortunately due to various circumstances the 2 Mustangs I used to own had to be sold, both very rare ('71 429 SCJ and '71 351 Cleveland Mach 1's).
Sad, sad times to see 2 great almost factory-freash cars go.
Still - I have my health, which is better than some.

Cheers
Jeff


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## Kasper Hedegård (Sep 28, 2013)

I would use a two part mixture if i had your Requirements. For the base part I would choose a mild PH neutral foam like valet pro pH neutral snow foam. The purpose of this would
Be to create foam, but you can also use it on its own if your car isnt that dirty. Then For the "cleaning part" you cold mix in some g101, surfex HD or any other strong APC depending on how dirty your car is. 
The Big but is, that no matter what, if you use a foam that is strong enough to work on its own, it will affect your LSP. So some sort of Quick protection would be Nice for when you need the strong mixtures.


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