# The experiment with #16, 476 and Werkstat Acrylic Kit



## Scotch (Jul 23, 2009)

Greetings one and all.

I know this may insterest some of you so here goes.

Please keep this in Mind



caledonia said:


> Moisture and ambient air temp as well as a lot of climactic condition can and will have a negative effect on most Lsp. This time of year is problematic in a lot of ways.
> Not just the rain. :lol:
> 
> Gordon.


So sod it on we go.:thumb:

Please forgive the 1,2,3 of the write up, I hope go get most of the detials in and show how things were applied and how i did it. It also helps any noobs in the read (well I think so):lol:

A few befores are in order



















The bonnet wasn't perfect but then again most cars we detail aren't. Though it had had a coat of #16 on before, it seemed to soak it up in no time due to its poor condition.









The day started out cold and damp but then later the sun decided to show up (just about when I had finished)









So you now have an idea of what the weather was like when I started.

First was to wash with the wool mit and Dodo SP. I wasn't doing the whole of the car, just the bits i need for this experiment (Bonnet and front wings). I decided on those cos' they get most of the muck.










After I had washed it down twice, mit doing its job










I dicided to clay it with the oldies but goodies Megs last touch (1:1 with water and product) and this clay.










As you can see there wasn't much crap on the bonnet and wings.
Bonnet









Wings









After this, all was nice and clean ready to go for the experiment. Introducing the usual suspects...










I decided to split the bonnet in to 3 and the wings would get the #16 and 476. After all most people are interested to compare the 2 but I thought the Werkstat in the mix would add some more interest. I know a lot of people think it is a great winter protector On we go...

Before adding any products i decided to go over the whole bonnet with PB blackhole. The paint was in a bad way and anything to make it better would help. I know this may affect the results but if all 3 are going over the top of the PB it makes it a little more even.

















Now this was done I could start on the other the famous 3. I first split the bonnet in to 3 so I could have all the products side by side. 









As you can see i have put the products above the section they were in. 476 on the left. #16 in the middle and the german lot on the right. All nice and even like (well as near as I could get)









The 476 is a new tub I got from CYC, the 16# is a few months old also from CYC and the werkstat kit was from PB. Just as a note, great service from both.:thumb::thumb:

Now for the really important bit, how long did i leave the products on the bonnet and wings???? Any one... go have a guess.... Oh alright then I will show you










till










Is it scientific NO, is it more realistic... Yes. And please remember the conditions in which this was done:thumb:

Now for a close up of the finish after 1 coat of product. 1st the werkstat on the right and #16 on the left.









and now the 476 on the left and #16 on the right.








.

I did 2 coats of each product on the bonnet. The only difference was with the werkstat. That had 2 coats of acrylic and then 2 coats of acrylic jet with 30 mins in between (as per bottle really). This was so all products were on as close to what is said 'on the tin'

Oh and for those who think wax dulls the shine on metalic paint please see the following (megs #16 section) just as the sun started to shine.









After the 2nd coats were removed I think it is time for some finished pics...

Right side of bonnet









left side









And finish


















I will keep you posted on the updates and how all products get on after being washed etc. Usually wash the cars every weekend. Hope this has been of use and as always










Cheers and thanks for reading.

Have a good weekend:thumb::thumb:


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## Vyker (Sep 17, 2008)

Cool, look forward to hearing more on this later!


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## chillly (Jun 25, 2009)

thanks for taking the time to do this mate. great job


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## VIPER (May 30, 2007)

Great stuff, mate :thumb:

Looking forward to seeing the results of this, cheers for doing the test


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## Guest (Oct 31, 2009)

Nice darts! 

Well done for your effort on this, and I too am interested in the results. When you took the tape off, did you leave it "bare" or did you give it a wipe over with something? 
It will be interesting to see beading when you get some more rain :thumb:


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## Tabbs (Aug 3, 2009)

very interesting
I use the werkstatt kit for my silver







but also for my wifes dark metalic grey








so results will be very interesting!!!!:thumb:


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## Scotch (Jul 23, 2009)

Veedub18 said:


> Nice darts!
> 
> Well done for your effort on this, and I too am interested in the results. When you took the tape off, did you leave it "bare" or did you give it a wipe over with something?
> It will be interesting to see beading when you get some more rain :thumb:


I tried to leave the tape gaps without any products on to prevent cross contamination and they 'should' stand out a little more when trying to see where one product starts and the other one ends.

Glad to know your interested. Will keep you updated, raining tomorrow (they said) so I may get 1 or 2 pics for an early start so you get some idea.

Cheers


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## wilkie (Nov 12, 2006)

I'm looking forward to the results with this one :thumb:


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## 03OKH (May 2, 2009)

As has been said, but wanted to add my thanks for taking the time to do this and making it available for all to benefit from.

Tony


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## caledonia (Sep 13, 2008)

Nice one Chris.
Glad you took the plunge.
This is what DW should be about every member conduction test and comparing the differences that LSP can produce. Just because someone has done a test does not mean that another member cant do the same one. After all every car lives its life in a totally different way. Whether it be motorway miles or about town, Living out doors or garaged. Even driving styles, where it is parked and environmental factors. The more people conduct these test and experiments the more useful data can become, as common denominators come into play.

Looking forward to you findings over the coming weeks and months.
And thanks for taking the time.
Gordon.


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## VIPER (May 30, 2007)

I second what Gordon said ^^ :thumb:


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## caledonia (Sep 13, 2008)

It ok Mark.
Young Davy wishes to start an experiment tomorrow.
He has decided to purchase CG Enzyme and put it to the test with BOS.

But since hes not on line. I have added a twist to the test and added a wax to the equation. Nothing special in that apart from the wax being added is a 7th of the price of these two big boys.

I wonder which shall come out on top. :lol:
Gordon.


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## byrnes (Jul 15, 2008)

IMHO once all the tape is removed you can not tell ANY difference between them, which confirms what ive always thought, what ever LSP you use, makes no difference, in appearance. Protection time will tell tho.

Nice test, thanks for spending the time to do it.


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## Scotch (Jul 23, 2009)

UPDATE

Here are a few more pics for you to help you make up your mind which is best. Sorry but it was dark ish when I took them...

This is a few days after the OP, please check dates for exact time frame.

476 first



















#16



















Werkstat



















476 on the left the #16 on the right










#16 on the left and Werkstat on the right










Now for the whole thing




























Thanks for looking, will keep you posted.

Cheers


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## Bratwurst (Jan 23, 2009)

Thanks for doing this test for us all to follow!

Enjoyed the first section - the preparation and write-up - especially the tea part.

Looking forward to the medium to long term results!

Cheers,

Dennis


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## henryk_kara (Oct 13, 2009)

Thanks a lot for this test! Looking forward to seeing how this continues.

Two observations on the photos above - about the untreated part (under the tape). First of all it also beads, for some reason. Maybe it's the blackhole...
Second - it looks different. Is it just this lighting, or is it really like this? I'm wondering, cause while most people here seem to agree that there's negligible difference in looks between most LSP's, this would hint that there is a difference _in looks_ between protected and unprotected paint.

On the other hand, could it be just the unprotected blackhole being washed off? hmm... too many factors... I guess you'd need an un-blackholed horizontal patch across the three test areas to tell that - but that is not the objective of this test, I know


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## Scotch (Jul 23, 2009)

henryk_kara said:


> Thanks a lot for this test! Looking forward to seeing how this continues.
> 
> Two observations on the photos above - about the untreated part (under the tape). First of all it also beads, for some reason. Maybe it's the blackhole...
> Second - it looks different. Is it just this lighting, or is it really like this? I'm wondering, cause while most people here seem to agree that there's negligible difference in looks between most LSP's, this would hint that there is a difference _in looks_ between protected and unprotected paint.
> ...


You raise a good point.

The bonnet was clayed and treated with black hole and that could be the cause, it does seem a little duller on the none treated parts. Misty rather than glossy.

If anyone can shed more light then please do.

On the up side though you can see clearly where the 3 different products are.:thumb:

Cheers


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## Dave KG (Feb 23, 2006)

Nice one, looking forward to seeing how the different products compare for you, and seeing the resuts of the test :thumb:


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## caledonia (Sep 13, 2008)

Scotch said:


> You raise a good point.
> 
> The bonnet was clayed and treated with black hole and that could be the cause, it does seem a little duller on the none treated parts. Misty rather than glossy.
> 
> ...


You haves stumbled on something that was proven, to my in a rather scientific manner. It is all to do with the refractive index of your natural clear coat and then the comparison of the LSP you have added to this.

Unfortunately an Lsp has a higher reflective index rating than your natural clear coat when the car is fully corrected. So anything you add on top of this only masks the finish. The only benefit will be protecting your hard work.

I have tried to keep this as basic as possible as I do not wish to bore everyone to tears. :thumb:

Tests are still on going at a local uni, comparing more LSPs. But so far this rule applies to them all.
Gordon.


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## henryk_kara (Oct 13, 2009)

caledonia said:


> I have tried to keep this as basic as possible as I do not wish to bore everyone to tears. :thumb:


why not?  I for one would be interested in some details. Are you planning to post the results at some point?

BTW what we're seeing here seems to be the opposite of what you're saying - the part with LSP appears to look "better", the untreated part - "duller"...

When putting Werkstat on my silver car last weekend I left one half of a door completely untreated... I can't even find the tape line anymore. And both halves bead the same... go figure.


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## Bigpikle (May 21, 2007)

thanks for the test - I didnt see it the first time around....

I'd take the results with a slight pinch of salt though for a couple of reasons:

1. as you said its obviously very damp and cold when you applied them, and that WILL affect the longevity of the products. We might assume it affects all 3 the same but we dont know that for sure...

2. I have found Last Touch to affect LSPs on many occasions. It contains silicone and that is not removed as you wipe it off. The PB BH might have removed some of it, but we have no way of knowing. There is a strong chance IMHO that L-T will have impacted the application of the LSP.

Its always good to keep trying stuff like this though, so lets see what happens in the next 6 months with performance. What shampoos and QDs are you using over winter on the car?


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## GSVHammer (Feb 7, 2009)

Just reading through this thread and it backs up what DaveKG and others say about 95% of the detail is in the prep' rather than the finish.

If you hadn't of said that you finished using 3 products this picture looks like the bonnet has 1 kind of LSP on it.










Even the beading shot looks fairly uniform.










We will see if there is any notable difference in future pictures over time.

P.S. forgot to say I like these real world test threads.


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## Ultimate (Feb 18, 2007)

thanks for this, be interested to see the colli vs werkstat result


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## caledonia (Sep 13, 2008)

henryk_kara said:


> why not?  I for one would be interested in some details. Are you planning to post the results at some point?
> 
> BTW what we're seeing here seems to be the opposite of what you're saying - the part with LSP appears to look "better", the untreated part - "duller"...
> 
> When putting Werkstat on my silver car last weekend I left one half of a door completely untreated... I can't even find the tape line anymore. And both halves bead the same... go figure.


I will try and keep it simple and short.
Clear coat when first applied or corrected properly has a refractive index of 1.5.
Most Lsp that have been tested have a high rate, varying form 2 to in some cases 5. Now the human eyes would find the lower number hard to pick up, if not impossible.

If an LSP is added to a car and an improvement is noted then the lower clear coat of the car has been damaged in some way. Now this could be swirls UV damage or many other factors. But the clear is deflecting or distorting or absorbing the true light source.

Refraction is measured by comparing the reflected light as well as the absorbed light. When these are feed into a PC the calculate the refraction index. Now this does not take into account of the underlying colour or flake, as some paint finishes are more reflective (as silver) But does not have much absorption. Where black absorbs with very little reflective.
Told you it can get very complicated.

As for posting the findings. I personally feel this would not benefit members or the public and possibly cause the LSP manufactures un due attention. So the true finding as a classification will not be released. There might be the best LSP posted. But it will not be broken down into WAX A2 as a rating of this buy it.

Gordon.

P.S. Very informative post Mr Pikle, and correct. I have found out also the most QD or clay lubes have had an effect on the LSP. 
look forward to hearing more also.


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## Grizzle (Jul 12, 2006)

Wonder if indoor curing in an atmospheric and dehumidified area would have any affect? 

OR...

Do we just apply it as we like the look and behaviour of the product and less about the Science??


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## JJ. (Sep 28, 2009)

The only difference I saw is between #16 and Werkstat (maybe it's because of photo angle).

Tell me Scotch, you saw it on your own eyes, anything worth saying about one of these 3 LSP's? :thumb:


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## caledonia (Sep 13, 2008)

Grizzle said:


> Wonder if indoor curing in an atmospheric and dehumidified area would have any affect?
> 
> OR...
> 
> Do we just apply it as we like the look and behaviour of the product and less about the Science??


Well as for your first question yes it does. :thumb:

I will let the members decide on if they wish science or not. As I was only answering a members question.


But as they say when in Rome.


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## badly_dubbed (Dec 11, 2008)

caledonia said:


> It ok Mark.
> Young Davy wishes to start an experiment tomorrow.
> He has decided to purchase CG Enzyme and put it to the test with BOS.
> 
> ...


my wax test begins saturday :thumb:

CG ezyme
BOS
megs 16
476s


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## Scotch (Jul 23, 2009)

JJ. said:


> The only difference I saw is between #16 and Werkstat (maybe it's because of photo angle).
> 
> Tell me Scotch, you saw it on your own eyes, anything worth saying about one of these 3 LSP's? :thumb:


The only difference at this early stage was the Werkstat beads were a little larger than the waxes. If you were going past it and just gave it the 'once over' you would be very pushed to tell any difference.

Looking forward to your wax test too Dubbed.:thumb:


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## badly_dubbed (Dec 11, 2008)

good reading on here so far 

whens the next update on the contenders?


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## Scotch (Jul 23, 2009)

badly_dubbed said:


> good reading on here so far
> 
> whens the next update on the contenders?


Here is my thinking....

Will give the old thing a wash this weekend and leave the products dried off and not much more. Just water beading and running off etc.

And then 2 weeks later, should make it a month (ish) since the first coat went on and the 2 weeks after that. Sound ok??

Ideas welcome


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## MidlandsCarCare (Feb 18, 2006)

Thanks for sharing - I look forward to the results.

My only point would be that if you have used Jeffs Prime, then it would have removed the Blackhole, so there isn't a consistent BH base, in theory.

That said, it wouldn't be fair to test Glos and Trigger on top of BH as they have been designed to use after Prime...

Just a thought.


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## henryk_kara (Oct 13, 2009)

RussZS said:


> My only point would be that if you have used Jeffs Prime, then it would have removed the Blackhole, so there isn't a consistent BH base, in theory.


Which brings back my favourite question - if Prime removed the Blackhole, and still the whole bonnet looks the same... then did BH do anything at all to the looks? :lol:

But coming back to the main topic: as I understand one of the benefits of the Werkstat system, and the keys to it's durability, is the ease of regular topping-up. The Glos QD contains the sealant, and applying Trigger is so easy it takes about as much effort as drying the car after a wash... if not less.
It will be interesting to see how it holds up "unmaintained".


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## Scotch (Jul 23, 2009)

Update for ya..

So here is how it looks a few weeks later



















Now before it rains again lets give it a wash and see how things go. Washed with Megs hyper in a gilmour. Toooooo cold to get the PW out and sod about with the electrics for it.










Werkstat









Megs 16









Colli 476









All about the same no real difference. However when it came to rinse it down, there was a difference.

Washed down and left to see what happens









after 30 seconds to drain








.

As you can see the werkstat is not clearing as well as the waxes. Do remember that it only had 2 coats of acrylic and 2 of jet. The waxes had 2 coats each.

So on with the wash. It was washed with 2bm and with Dodo SP mixed in after the water. Washed with a megs lambs wool mit with light contact with the paint.










Again not much difference. And rince.










Again after 30 seconds










Looks like more dirt has been cleared and the wirkstat is clearing water off better. After the bonnet was dried its time to look at the finishes and see what effect that washing had had.

476









#16









Werkstat









and some final Pics




























The finish looks a close thing. I will leave the results for you to make up your own mind.

There haven't been any additions to this process so when it comes to washing time again we will see which ones last and which dont.

Thanks for reading.


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## 03OKH (May 2, 2009)

Hiya



> Looks like more dirt has been cleared and the wirkstat is clearing water off better.


Doesnt SP contain some nuba? This maybe assisting the clearing of water on the werkstat side.

Just an observation, what do others/you think?

Tony


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## sanchez89 (Feb 14, 2009)

03OKH said:


> Hiya
> 
> Doesnt SP contain some nuba? This maybe assisting the clearing of water on the werkstat side.
> 
> ...


yes it does as Dodo SP is a 'gloss enhancing' shampoo. it will only be a very small amount but it may have helped the werkstat as you say.


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