# De-Icer vs Letting the car idle



## Alex_225 (Feb 7, 2008)

Right, just a quick question for the techy/mechanical types. 

I don't like using De-icer and don't use it. Obviously it strips wax and I feel is somewhat of a harsh chemical. 

So, I let the car warm up and thaw out any ice on the windscreen. But I've heard that mechanically this isn't so good for the car, letting it idle for 5-10 minutes. Is this true? Sounds dramatic but me but just wondered. :thumb:


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## ginge7289 (Feb 21, 2011)

You should not let the car idle at start up for too long, it is better for the engine if you drive gently till you get up to temp rather than have it sat just ticking over. How about a scrapper?


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## Grizzle (Jul 12, 2006)

I've stopped using deicer and now use a scraper.

Start the car, aircon on the front window at speed 3, rear heater on and heated mirrors on (if needed) then go scrape the windows if windows are clear enough for me to see and not just peek through then off i go. 

I dont see what damage idle at cold could do compared to driving when cold?


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## ianFRST (Sep 19, 2006)

i use deicer & let it idle 

i use deicer on the windscreen only, so i dont see what damage it can do. i then let it idle to warm it up


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## VIPER (May 30, 2007)

I'll be doing what I did last year: Cheap electric fan heater ( I think I paid a tenner from Currys) plugged into the outside socket, sit it on the parcel shelf and come back in the house. 5-10 minutes later, all ice on the glass melted and lovely and warm inside. No De-icer on the paintwork and no wear on the engine 

(got that tip from someone on here last year and works like a charm :thumb: Sorry I can't remember who it was, but thanks )


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## McClane (Dec 9, 2010)

How about warm water from indoors. About 2 litres in an old lemonade bottle does the trick.

Need to be careful if people will be walking past where you car sits, as it can freeze on the floor afterwards.

I find this quicker and cleaner than de-icer (better for MPG also). De-icer gives me annoying window smears if it gets down your window rubbers.

Yet to crack a screen, but I don't use it "hot".


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## herbiedacious (Sep 27, 2010)

Warm tap water always works for me


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## Alex_225 (Feb 7, 2008)

Don't worry I've got my technique sorted, usually cool tap water does the trick if I'm in a rush. (Usually in the Mrs car as I don't use mine to commute)

It was more the question about letting the engine idle.



Grizzle said:


> I dont see what damage idle at cold could do compared to driving when cold?


This was my thinking. Obviously you don't rev the engine above say 2-3,000rpm when it's cold. Can't see what harm it does giving the engine 5-10 minutes idling to warm the water/oil before driving it carefully until it's fully up to temperature.

Anyone tell me what damage you're causing by letting it idle?


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## Black Magic Detail (Aug 17, 2010)

warm water for me


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## andy monty (Dec 29, 2007)

VIPER said:


> (got that tip from someone on here last year and works like a charm :thumb: Sorry I can't remember who it was, but thanks )


:wave:


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## robster84 (May 10, 2011)

luke warm water for me. I carry a can of de-icer in the car but rarely use it


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## Steve valentine (Aug 7, 2010)

I carry a spray bottle with concentrated screen wash in.


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## Paddy_R (Jan 10, 2007)

Get yourself a Ford with a heated front screen. Simply start car, turn on heated screen (of if It's below 4 degrees it turns itself on) wait 20-30 seconds then use the wipers to clear screen. Or as I do, start car, make sure heated screen is on, go round car and clear side windows, and then use wipers to clear screen. Heated front screen, great invention.


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## dsolds (Feb 13, 2008)

Oh the joys of a pre-heater 
Erm, de-icer is nasty stuff full of ethers and stuff you don't really want on your paintwork. But compared to the mechanical damage of idling a cold engine, well I'd use de-icer TBH.
However, when I do SWMBO's car I use lukewarm (not hot) water and a MF to wipe off.


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## Sirmally2 (Feb 28, 2011)

Paddy_R said:


> Get yourself a Ford with a heated front screen. Simply start car, turn on heated screen (of if It's below 4 degrees it turns itself on) wait 20-30 seconds then use the wipers to clear screen. Or as I do, start car, make sure heated screen is on, go round car and clear side windows, and then use wipers to clear screen. Heated front screen, great invention.


+1 For this method. Other night whole inside of the screen was condensed up due to the rapid loss of temp. Was sat there no longer than 90 seconds and i was on my way.

Well done to Ford :thumb:


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## SKY (Sep 25, 2011)

I'm gonna try the heater on the rear parcel shelf method. reversing from my drive is a nightmare as its blind so I really need the visibility when reversing off.

Thanks for the top tip


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## ginge7289 (Feb 21, 2011)

Alex_225 said:


> It was more the question about letting the engine idle.


"Myth #1: The engine should be warmed up before driving. Reality: Idling is not an effective way to warm up your vehicle, even in cold weather. The best way to do this is to drive the vehicle. With today's modern engines, you need no more than 30 seconds of idling on winter days before driving away.

Myth #2: Idling is good for your engine. Reality: Excessive idling can actually damage your engine components, including cylinders, spark plugs, and exhaust systems. Fuel is only partially combusted when idling because an engine does not operate at its peak temperature. This leads to the build up of fuel residues on cylinder walls that can damage engine components and increase fuel consumption.

Myth #3: Shutting off and restarting your vehicle is hard on the engine and uses more gas than if you leave it running. Reality: Frequent restarting has little impact on engine components like the battery and the starter motor. Component wear caused by restarting the engine is estimated to add $10 per year to the cost of driving, money that will likely be recovered several times over in fuel savings from reduced idling. The bottom line is that more than ten seconds of idling uses more fuel than restarting the engine."


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## -Kev- (Oct 30, 2007)

glass sealed with Wolf's + heated front screen = win 
only need to defrost the side windows if its a thick frost...


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## -Kev- (Oct 30, 2007)

ginge7289 said:


> "Myth #1: *The engine should be warmed up before driving. Reality: Idling is not an effective way to warm up your vehicle, even in cold weather. The best way to do this is to drive the vehicle. With today's modern engines, you need no more than 30 seconds of idling on winter days before driving away.*
> 
> Myth #2: Idling is good for your engine. Reality: Excessive idling can actually damage your engine components, including cylinders, spark plugs, and exhaust systems. Fuel is only partially combusted when idling because an engine does not operate at its peak temperature. This leads to the build up of fuel residues on cylinder walls that can damage engine components and increase fuel consumption.
> 
> Myth #3: Shutting off and restarting your vehicle is hard on the engine and uses more gas than if you leave it running. Reality: Frequent restarting has little impact on engine components like the battery and the starter motor. Component wear caused by restarting the engine is estimated to add $10 per year to the cost of driving, money that will likely be recovered several times over in fuel savings from reduced idling. The bottom line is that more than ten seconds of idling uses more fuel than restarting the engine."


needs to warm up if the car has'nt got a heated front screen...


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## alan hanson (May 21, 2008)

first winter coming up with the ford like a child looking forward to it in a strange way.

Before just used to use water and windscreen wipers, though when it was really cold it refroze before the wipers could swipe lol


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## E38_ross (May 10, 2010)

Alex_225 said:


> Don't worry I've got my technique sorted, usually cool tap water does the trick if I'm in a rush. (Usually in the Mrs car as I don't use mine to commute)
> 
> It was more the question about letting the engine idle.
> 
> ...


oil flow is minimal whilst it's cold. idling it's still doing several hundred rpm but won't warm up as it's not under load. oil is still quite thick, therefore, and where it's running lean on fuel the petrol can wash away and protective oil coatings in the engine causing even more wear. this isn't an issue when the oil is hot though.

there are a few other reasons. ideally, start up, leave for just a few seconds and then drive off.

i use a windscreen sealant (g1 in my case)....frozen screen, lukewarm water, water melts, runs off screen and therefore doesn't refreeze. job done.


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## ginge7289 (Feb 21, 2011)

ginge7289 said:


> "Myth #1: The engine should be warmed up before driving. Reality: Idling is not an effective way to warm up your vehicle, even in cold weather. The best way to do this is to drive the vehicle. *With today's modern engines*, you need no more than 30 seconds of idling on winter days before driving away.





-Kev- said:


> needs to warm up if the car has'nt got a heated front screen...


I thought he was asking the effects of cold idle???????


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## KEV. (Oct 22, 2007)

I scrape, while the car idles with full heat demisting the screen. I hate the deicer stuff.
Prolonged idling does more wear than driving the car however it only really applies when your idling very long periods.

If your that bothered, buy a pre heater.


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## Darlofan (Nov 24, 2010)

I have a Ford so heated screen is the best.
Before the Ford i used to stick a hot water bottle on the dash for 10mins while i got ready for work. Then jump in car and wipers will get shot of ice. I would then put hot water bottle on my lap and drive with it there until heater kicked in full.


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## Alex_225 (Feb 7, 2008)

dsolds said:


> Oh the joys of a pre-heater
> Erm, de-icer is nasty stuff full of ethers and stuff you don't really want on your paintwork. But compared to the mechanical damage of idling a cold engine, well I'd use de-icer TBH.


Please elabourate mate, this is what I'm intrigued about.:thumb:

Actually just spotted E38_Ross' post.


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## nick.s (Dec 21, 2009)

I will admit to using deicer, albeit as sparingly as I can get away with. I tend to scrape as much as possible however.


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## chewysrixp (Jun 23, 2009)

I use an old 5ltr container filled with water that is left indoors over night so basically room temprature, this also contains a decent mix of screan wash, ice on windows disapears in seconds and is less likely to leave a slippy puddle (my car is on a slight hill just up from a drain)


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## paulyoung666 (Jul 6, 2011)

just dont do what an ex neighbour did , come out with a freshly boiled kettle ..............


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## Alex_225 (Feb 7, 2008)

I can only imagine the consequences of a freshly boiled kettle. 

I was thinking about this and I don't think I've had to defrost either of my own cars since I've had them. Neither have ever seen a commute so I've never had to defrost them! lol 

Usually with the Mrs car, we keep a 2ltr bottle of water on the radiator in the hall the night before. Take that out as we head out in the morning, job done.


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## Arthur Dent (Aug 2, 2011)

everything you need to know about the effects of COLD IDLE on a diesel engine:-

http://http://etheses.nottingham.ac.uk/759/1/MacMillan_thesis.pdf

Page 11 sec1.2.

Hope this helps


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## johnnyguitar (Mar 24, 2010)

I just pour salt all over mine :lol:



alan hanson said:


> first winter coming up with the ford like a child looking forward to it in a strange way.


My first winter in 7 years without a Ford and heated front screen. I'm not looking forward to it but will be scraping away, with the gloves on.


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## kcass (Aug 24, 2010)

VIPER said:


> I'll be doing what I did last year: Cheap electric fan heater ( I think I paid a tenner from Currys) plugged into the outside socket, sit it on the parcel shelf and come back in the house. 5-10 minutes later, all ice on the glass melted and lovely and warm inside. No De-icer on the paintwork and no wear on the engine
> 
> (got that tip from someone on here last year and works like a charm :thumb: Sorry I can't remember who it was, but thanks )


i do exactly the same,always carry extension lead in boot ,feed it through the letter box plug it into socket in hall then turn heater on,5 mins normally all done,dont like de-icer and hate leaving car ticking over in drive as my next door neighbours dont get up as early as me!


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## Mike k (Oct 14, 2011)

Heated front screen is one thing i will be missing this year as my bmw is first non ford ive owned in 11 years of driving and hving owned 21 cars. And no i havent wrote any off, just get bored v easily lol.


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## greenwagon (Dec 31, 2008)

I normally use the garaged car if it's frosty but the "outside" car I always pour warm water from a 2ltr bottle over it go in have my toast then out again start up and away


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## A Fast Sloth (Aug 14, 2010)

Use a high quality de-icer, and if you use the deicer wisely then you wont need to spray it on and all over like deodorant in a teenage boys sports changing room. If you are concerned that much about it stripping wax, you're going to have a hairy canary with all the other stuff in the environment in winter that'll strip wax.

Furthermore, all those dafties that don't use antifreeze washes in their wash bottles for fear of stripping wax are a dangerous lot, and should not be allowed out in the cold in their car's if they do not have sufficient visibility or ability to clean/use the washers of their car.


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## Exotica (Feb 27, 2006)

I just use a kitchen cloth, easy


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## Leemack (Mar 6, 2009)

Little heater like Mark.

12v and does the job without idling, missing the screen and spraying the paint


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## rob28 (Nov 7, 2008)

Idling works for me - usually about 10 mins on a cold morning is enough to clear the screen and get some heat in the truck. Oh, a cold morning is about -35degC. I will have had the engine block heater plugged in on a timer to preheat the block so it's not starting from as cold as it could be.

There seems to be a different way of thinking here - the majority of cars/trucks have remote start/command start where you press a button on your key/fob to start the vehicle and then have brekky & coffee while it's warming up. People think nothing of leaving their car running while they go in and do their weekly shopping - we're no that bad yet.

Whats the deal with the Ford screens. I have a couple of brand new Ford Trucks and neither have this heated screen? Do you know if it's Europe only, cars only? I'm sure I heard somewhere that Ford have the patent on this and won't allow anyone else to use this technology.


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## Davi (Dec 7, 2010)

rob28 said:


> Whats the deal with the Ford screens. I have a couple of brand new Ford Trucks and neither have this heated screen? Do you know if it's Europe only, cars only? I'm sure I heard somewhere that Ford have the patent on this and won't allow anyone else to use this technology.


We had one on our ford galaxy. Its very similar to a rear screen heater except that the wires are thinner and embedded into the glass running vertically with lots close together.


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## Mirror Finish Details (Aug 21, 2008)

A nice warm garage helps.


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## trv8 (Dec 30, 2007)

Mirror Finish said:


> A nice warm garage helps.


Sure does :thumb:. Marvelous that central heating .


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## silverback (Jun 18, 2008)

Mike k said:


> Heated front screen is one thing i will be missing this year as my bmw is first non ford ive owned in 11 years of driving and hving owned 21 cars. And no i havent wrote any off, just get bored v easily lol.


Ditto the last 6years I have had the pleasure of a heated front window. This will be my first winter with not only no heated front,but also driving a BMW in winter. Oh the fun I shall have haha.


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## Exotica (Feb 27, 2006)

silverback said:


> Ditto the last 6years I have had the pleasure of a heated front window. This will be my first winter with not only no heated front,but also driving a BMW in winter. Oh the fun I shall have haha.


Ice roads + Rear wheel drive =:devil:


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## Dixondmn (Oct 12, 2007)

rob28 said:


> There seems to be a different way of thinking here - *the majority of cars/trucks have remote start/command start where you press a button on your key/fob to start the vehicle and then have brekky & coffee while it's warming up.* People think nothing of leaving their car running while they go in and do their weekly shopping - we're no that bad yet.
> 
> Whats the deal with the Ford screens. I have a couple of brand new Ford Trucks and neither have this heated screen? Do you know if it's Europe only, cars only? I'm sure I heard somewhere that Ford have the patent on this and won't allow anyone else to use this technology.


Its frowned apon in the UK if not illegal. Its certainly against the highway code to leave a car running and unattended.

Not sure if the Ford screen thing is Euro only, but its been a god send since ive ownded fords over the last 13 years


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## Exotica (Feb 27, 2006)

dixon75 said:


> Its frowned apon in the UK if not illegal. Its certainly against the highway code to leave a car running and unattended.
> 
> Not sure if the Ford screen thing is Euro only, but its been a god send since ive ownded fords over the last 13 years


Its a European trademark by Ford.

First seen on the 1985 Ford Granada and the U.S market but never took off there.


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## markbob917 (Aug 31, 2010)

anyone got a link to the heaters they use? ive seen one in maplin but not sure if its the same type?


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## msb (Dec 20, 2009)

Exotica said:


> Ice roads + Rear wheel drive =:devil:


nah icy roads+ rear wheel drive =


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## E38_ross (May 10, 2010)

BMWs are absolutely fine in the winter. it's the big wide summer tyres that aren't. my mates dad has an Audi RS4 and said it was the worst car he's ever used in the winter, and that's 4wd. a massive amount depends on tyres.

for those who don't have windscreen sealants - i think you can get night-before deicer but never tried it. worth a shot perhaps. windscreen sealants help massively though, make it so much easier to get it off the screen.


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## robq7653 (Jun 24, 2011)

From what i gather g1 or similar then pour water on and just sheets off before freezing. Job done by the sounds. I drove my 3 series last year in ice n snow on Goodyear asymmetric not an issue, even managed to climb a steep hill to drop my bosses pregnant mrs home.


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## Tiger 1057 (Nov 1, 2011)

Plain cold water from the tap! There is some scientific reason why using this is slower to re-freeze on the windscreen rather than warm water.
Got to say like a previous poster, just be careful where you use it. If it runs onto a footpath and freezes just hope you got good insurance should someone slip on it and injure themselves.


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## Bel (Mar 1, 2011)

Letting the engine idle from cold for just a few minutes won't do it any harm. Quite the opposite in fact, so long as you don't take it to extremes.

Some time ago, I used chemical de-icers like pretty much everyone else I knew. It was always the easy choice. In fact, I thought it was pretty much the only choice.

Then I went to live in Sweden for a while, including two winters. Nobody even knew what I was talking about when I went around trying to buy "de-icer" and they just kept waving "ice scrapers" at me instead. When I explained, they were completely bemused - "why would you use a chemical for that?!".

That was in 1994, and ever since if I have to leave the car outside then the winter car-clearance ritual is to start the engine, brush the snow off, scrape every window completely clear and then drive off.

No chemicals involved. Just a good set of warm, waterproof gloves and a decent, small, ice scraper.

The ritual takes no more than about 5 minutes or so, leaves the whole car clear of snow and ice, lets the engine idle long enough to get the oil working a bit and leaves me with a working hot air blower for the windscreen.

:thumb:


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## TubbyTwo (Apr 14, 2011)

Heated windscreen FTW


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## DuncanMon (May 25, 2009)

http://www.maplin.co.uk/12v-4-in-1-rechargeable-car-heater-588748?action=noagentcheck

http://www.windowheater.nl/

Really interested in these. Looks like the Alpina company haven't traded for years though and theirs sounds very impressive.

At the moment I use warm / cold water depending on taps (stay in middle of nowhere with terrible water pressure for warm water tap) onto G1'd windows. That along with Fords heated front windscreen for the foggy windows inside does the job. Use a water blade to clear snow off the rest of the car paint work (no touching paint). And I'm off! I wouldn't worry about idling for sub 5 minutes really.


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## MatthewR (May 15, 2011)

ive said it before and ill say it again, a customer at work burnt his house down by leaving a heater on in his car which was in his garage.

Be Careful!


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## TubbyTwo (Apr 14, 2011)

DuncanMon said:


> http://www.maplin.co.uk/12v-4-in-1-rechargeable-car-heater-588748?action=noagentcheck
> 
> http://www.windowheater.nl/
> 
> ...


Had something similar last year and it really wasnt that great tbh.


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## alfajim (May 4, 2011)

i park down the side of the house and have g1 on the screen so it needs to be a pretty heavy freeze before it ices up.
start her up, press the clear button - which turns everything warm onto max, then go round the car with the scraper.


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## Laurie.J.M (Jun 23, 2011)

silverback said:


> Ditto the last 6years I have had the pleasure of a heated front window. This will be my first winter with not only no heated front,but also driving a BMW in winter. Oh the fun I shall have haha.


If it snows you may end up on the news, when BBC news show the chaos on the roads there's always a shot of a BMW or Mercedes stuggling to move.


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## nickfrog (Nov 29, 2010)

Laurie.J.M said:


> If it snows you may end up on the news, when BBC news show the chaos on the roads there's always a shot of a BMW or Mercedes stuggling to move.


I guess it's because they are practically the only mainstream front engined rear drive cars and the first ones to get stuck.


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