# G'ZOX Real Glass Coat Plus Gloss V.S. Gtechniq C1



## orion613719

G'ZOX Real Glass Coat Plus Gloss
http://www.gzox.com/beautiful/products/s029.asp









Gtechniq C1
http://www.gtechniq.com/shop/3s-for-cars/exterior-coatings/c1-crystal-lacquer/

Left side is G'ZOX Real Glass Coat Plus Gloss, right side is Gtechniq C1
Median line is dividing line.



























It's hard to separate the gloss difference by using the camera....
I use gloss meter, the results are similar.
Here had video:









But, the beading is very different!

We can find that G'ZOX water droplets size is more bigger than Gtechniq
G'ZOX Real Glass Coat Plus Gloss:









Gtechniq C1:









The most interesting thing is the difference of roll angle.


























==============2010/7/1 update============
http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showpost.php?p=2250301&postcount=88
======================================


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## gioprivatemove

Nice review, mate.
love the water beading.


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## Porta

How is the sheeting, can you post a video?


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## christian900se

Thanks for the review! What do you think about the G'ZOX? I was looking at their site but I figured I would ask here since you obviously have first hand experience with it.


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## DiamondD

LOL every body tring to copy gteching it is so funny.


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## Porta

DiamondD said:


> LOL every body tring to copy gteching it is so funny.


G´zox was on the market about a couple of years before Gtechniq


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## DiamondD

Gtechinq has been out longer, way longer. They where doing boats for years before doing cars then got into the auto scene.


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## Porta

DiamondD said:


> For your info. gteching has been out longer way longer pal get your facts straight they where doing boats for years before doing cars than got into the auto seen mate.


Since you seem to know the "business", maybee you could tell us when G´zox launched their glass coat? AFAIK Aquamica and the other "jap glass coats" came out on the market for almost 10 years ago.


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## orion613719

Porta said:


> How is the sheeting, can you post a video?


This is a longterm test, I will update one month later~ :wave:


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## orion613719

christian900se said:


> Thanks for the review! What do you think about the G'ZOX? I was looking at their site but I figured I would ask here since you obviously have first hand experience with it.


easy to apply, and very hydrophobic.
but, it need 21 days for curing


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## orion613719

Porta said:


> Since you seem to know the "business", maybee you could tell us when G´zox launched their glass coat? AFAIK Aquamica and the other "jap glass coats" came out on the market for almost 10 years ago.


I think that G'ZOX and Gtechniq is different technologies.
G'zox is organic compounds, Gtechniq is inorganic compounds.
G'zox is polymer, Gtechniq is silicate crystallization.

Similar products with Gtechniq is Hi-MOHS COAT http://www.himohscoat.jp/
It started from July 2009.

I know add a few additives into Gtechniq C1, it will become like this photo:
156 degree contact angle, very small roll angle








View attachment 11834


Rob know it, but this additives seems had some doubt, I will do more experiments.
And discuss with Rob, beading just one part of function. 
But, everyone only care about this... :wall:


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## Cquartz

Well, i think many people here like allot Water beading effect, and more how it looks like, i do also, 
BUT !!! im going to try here to break this myth.... good water beading ... SO WHAT ???

what exactly is the real benefit you see from it??? as i once said here, if its not Super hydrophobic the water beads as showen in the above pictures will only be water spots when dried on surface , most car surface are horizontal , if the car is not on the move (and some time even while driving) those droplets will stand still , and while they dry with the sunshine , they will result this :
http://i871.photobucket.com/albums/ab275/Aquartz/NewPicture.jpg
this is extreme dirty rain i know, its just to show what is the worst condition.
and after washing it with calcium marks:
http://i871.photobucket.com/albums/ab275/Aquartz/NewPicture1.jpg

so , my Theory is , for car surface!!!! ... less water drops or beading (as many here call it )... less watermarks >>> less wipe off force >>> less possible swirls and scratches ..

many will disagree with me here, but .... thats what i think.


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## orion613719

Aquartz said:


> Well, i think many people here like allot Water beading effect, and more how it looks like, i do also,
> BUT !!! im going to try here to break this myth.... good water beading ... SO WHAT ???
> 
> what exactly is the real benefit you see from it??? as i once said here, if its not Super hydrophobic the water beads as showen in the above pictures will only be water spots when dried on surface , most car surface are horizontal , if the car is not on the move (and some time even while driving) those droplets will stand still , and while they dry with the sunshine , they will result this :
> http://i871.photobucket.com/albums/ab275/Aquartz/NewPicture.jpg
> this is extreme dirty rain i know, its just to show what is the worst condition.
> and after washing it with calcium marks:
> http://i871.photobucket.com/albums/ab275/Aquartz/NewPicture1.jpg
> 
> so , my Theory is , for car surface!!!! ... less water drops or beading (as many here call it )... less watermarks >>> less wipe off force >>> less possible swirls and scratches ..
> 
> many will disagree with me here, but .... thats what i think.


I very agree with this argument :thumb:


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## k1+

This water beading angle is the _Lotus effect_ ... :thumb::thumb:



orion613719 said:


> I think that G'ZOX and Gtechniq is different technologies.
> G'zox is organic compounds, Gtechniq is inorganic compounds.
> G'zox is polymer, Gtechniq is silicate crystallization.
> 
> Similar products with Gtechniq is Hi-MOHS COAT http://www.himohscoat.jp/
> It started from July 2009.
> 
> I know add a few additives into Gtechniq C1, it will become like this photo:
> 156 degree contact angle, very small roll angle
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 11834
> 
> 
> Rob know it, but this additives seems had some doubt, I will do more experiments.
> And discuss with Rob, beading just one part of function.
> But, everyone only care about this... :wall:


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## Bence

Porta said:


> Since you seem to know the "business", maybee you could tell us when G´zox launched their glass coat? AFAIK Aquamica and the other "jap glass coats" came out on the market for almost 10 years ago.


More than 10 years now. And the Gtechniq is also Made in Japan.


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## orion613719

Bence said:


> More than 10 years now. And the Gtechniq is also Made in Japan.


I don't think so, why should make in Japan? The cost must be very high if made in Japan. 
This kind of coating can be done at anywhere, if you want...

This is my house, I am study of ceramic coating if I have time... :lol:
View attachment 11837










It's easy to make, but not easy to apply on paint, still need a lot of time and money for research.....


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## Bence

You think so, I know so.


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## buff not enuf

You take care there matey :lol::thumb:











orion613719 said:


> This is my house, I am study of ceramic coating if I have time... :lol:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's easy to make, but not easy to apply on paint, still need a lot of time and money for research.....


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## orion613719

buff not enuf said:


> You take care there matey :lol::thumb:


This box is a nitrogen sealed box


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## dcrc

Interesting comparison.

I'll be keen to know how well they protect the surface against water marks and bird poos.


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## Porta

Any updates?


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## chillly

Mr orion613719. great test and thanks for the info:thumb:

Have a chat with mr Amiller he is doing a similar test it would be good if you swop info so to speak. He is a nice chap:thumb:


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## Toolman

orion613719 said:


> I don't think so, why should make in Japan? The cost must be very high if made in Japan.
> This kind of coating can be done at anywhere, if you want...


~edit~ both are made in Japan...FACT!!!


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## Cquartz

Toolman said:


> ~edit~ both are made in Japan...FACT!!!


100% !!:thumb:


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## Moderator

Chaps, just a reminder to conduct yourselves in a more befitting manner, and not to get worked up over the origins of this, that, and the other, so much that it results in referring to fellow members as "dude", "mate", etc - it's counterproductive to keeping a thread from disintegrating into a bit of a slanging match.

Thank you very much.


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## Reflect

It's an interesting test for sure. I wonder how each product would work on wheels.


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## blackjz

there are two bottles of them..what are those?


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## Porta

blackjz said:


> there are two bottles of them..what are those?


B, the small bottle, is a hardener or accelerator. Poor B it into A, and shake 'n bake.


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## Toolman

Remember to use up the mixture within 3~6 hours of opening for best results


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## blackjz

are they similar to OPTI COat?


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## Porta

Toolman said:


> Remember to use up the mixture within 3~6 hours of opening for best results


Is one bottle enough for 2 cars?



blackjz said:


> are they similar to OPTI COat?


Yes.


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## Toolman

Porta said:


> Is one bottle enough for 2 cars?


Depends on size of car of course...I use a single bottle for each car. Any leftover I will give it a second coat. A third coat to the frontal section, just to be sure I got a good coverage!


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## lukaszr

Where can I buy a G'zox Beautiful products ?


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## amiller

chillly said:


> Mr orion613719. great test and thanks for the info:thumb:
> 
> Have a chat with mr Amiller he is doing a similar test it would be good if you swop info so to speak. He is a nice chap:thumb:


Yeah, thanks for that. Updates are few and far between because these products are just that good.

I'm currently testing C2 on tyres at the moment with impressive results. Will do a wee write up in a bit.

MrOrion- have you tried curing any of the sealants with heat (infra red lamps?) :speechles


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## maesal

Any update? :thumb:


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## orion613719

Sorry, I am so busy recently.

This car never wash since applying these two.
I just meet the owner for discussing my new detailing factory tonight.
It's raining everyday almost one month in Taiwan.
I notice the GZOX and Gtechniq, they were still similar.
I will update the photo next week. 

I am busy almost all day in my other detailing shop.... :wall:


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## orion613719

Actually, I was probably know how to make G'ZOX Real Glass Coat Plus Gloss.
It's technology more lower than Gtechniq C1(It had no any crystal which your eye can see).

If you want to try G'ZOX, I suggest to try their Hi-MOHS.

Below video is what I make the similar coat in my laboratory, and very easy to overstep their performance.
I personally recommend using C1, if you choice this kind of coating. (From the reliability point of view)


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## christian900se

That is some seriously good sheeting and beading, what kind of durability are you getting out of the AB coating?


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## orion613719

christian900se said:


> That is some seriously good sheeting and beading, what kind of durability are you getting out of the AB coating?


I am not sure... I just make this coat two months ago...

This is the back of my detailing shop, I test anything here.
Because here is duty, moist and had many mosquito.
Nobody want to come here...










This is my test hood









Hood above the roof, the rain drop on it directly









I test the hydrophobic sometimes, but we don't touch it, too duty, too many mosquito here... :doublesho













It's still good during the past two months.

















it was foggy surface originally, I don't polish it before applly coating...
I just want to know the durability privately, so, no plan for the formal test at that time.
The results really surprised me, maybe I need a formal test...


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## IDwash&wax

orion613719 said:


> Actually, I was probably know how to make G'ZOX Real Glass Coat Plus Gloss.
> It's technology more lower than Gtechniq C1(It had no any crystal which your eye can see).
> 
> If you want to try G'ZOX, I suggest to try their Hi-MOHS.
> 
> Below video is what I make the similar coat in my laboratory, and very easy to overstep their performance.
> I personally recommend using C1, if you choice this kind of coating. (From the reliability point of view)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> YouTube- AB glass coat 1.AVI
> YouTube- AB glass coat 2.AVI


What about Hi-MOHS VS Gtech?


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## orion613719

IDwash&wax said:


> What about Hi-MOHS VS Gtech?


I don't know... I can't get the sample... 
That is G'ZOX best coat.


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## orion613719

lukaszr said:


> Where can I buy a G'zox Beautiful products ?


you can buy from here:
http://search.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/...A5%D7%A5%E9%A5%B9&auccat=0&alocale=0jp&acc=jp


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## Porta

orion613719 said:


> I don't know... I can't get the sample...
> That is G'ZOX best coat.


Ah, I tought that you where using the Hi mohs coat. Wich coat did you use?


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## orion613719

Porta said:


> Ah, I tought that you where using the Hi mohs coat. Wich coat did you use?


I had seen the car which apply Hi-MOHS, very nice, but I had no chance to test it. I think Toolman had experience.... 

I use Gtechniq, Zaino and AQuartz now.


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## irsankao

orion613719 said:


> I had seen the car which apply Hi-MOHS, very nice, but I had no chance to test it. I think Toolman had experience....
> 
> I use Gtechniq, Zaino and AQuartz now.


Hi Orion, I love your work and your "invention" hehe.
Btw, do you like gtechniq or aquarts better for the coating?
and which one is more cost effient? and which one does the customer like better?


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## orion613719

irsankao said:


> Hi Orion, I love your work and your "invention" hehe.
> Btw, do you like gtechniq or aquarts better for the coating?
> and which one is more cost effient? and which one does the customer like better?


I am the agent of Gtechniq, Zaino, DoDoJuice, Collinite, Festool and AQutartz in Taiwan. I also sale 24 brands detailing tools and materials.

I love these brands, so I sale them. My customer also love them. :thumb:

The best product is maintainace product. C3, Z-6, Z-CS, Z8...etc
I change Collinite into the spray wax recently, this is best product!
Same performance as the original! Wax a car only need 10 mins! 









Nothing to maintain, every coat or seal is no use!


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## christian900se

Holy crap!!! how did you convert 915 into a spray wax, I would love to give it a try!


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## maesal

Interesting conversion !!


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## irsankao

orion613719 said:


> I am the agent of Gtechniq, Zaino, DoDoJuice, Collinite, Festool and AQutartz in Taiwan. I also sale 24 brands detailing tools and materials.
> 
> I love these brands, so I sale them. My customer also love them. :thumb:
> 
> The best product is maintainace product. C3, Z-6, Z-CS, Z8...etc
> I change Collinite into the spray wax recently, this is best product!
> Same performance as the original! Wax a car only need 10 mins!
> 
> Nothing to maintain, every coat or seal is no use!


Is detailing industry in taiwan well developed?
I am from indonesia btw, here, detailing industry is like....20yrs behind USA maybe. Most detailers don't know how to correct paint properly.


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## orion613719

irsankao said:


> Is detailing industry in taiwan well developed?
> I am from indonesia btw, here, detailing industry is like....20yrs behind USA maybe. Most detailers don't know how to correct paint properly.


In fact, Taiwan is very similar with you, but we are working hard for over two years, and has some of the results come out. :buffer:


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## JJ_

How much is the liquid collinite ? 

I like C1 over G because of the smaller beads. Plus I don't need to wait so long for curing etc etc. 

Yeah PM me the price for this please, shipped to the Scotland, U.K.


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## orion613719

JJ_ said:


> How much is the liquid collinite ?
> 
> I like C1 over G because of the smaller beads. Plus I don't need to wait so long for curing etc etc.
> 
> Yeah PM me the price for this please, shipped to the Scotland, U.K.


I will send to you 

*How to use it:*

Prepare a MF and liquid collinite









spray a little Collinite on the MF









Wipe it~ (can use on dry or wet surface) Just like use the QD, UQD or UQW...etc


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## amiller

Liquid Collinite 915- is that similar to the 845 then? 

Have you tested C1 against etching (bird bombs etc)? My iniital tests (some on purpose, some not) are a bit disappointing.


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## GMToyota

Liquid 915!!! You are my hero haha. If it outlasts 845, you should patent it or get in touch with collinite. I don't think they have a QD in their line-up, so $$$ for you .


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## orion613719

amiller said:


> Liquid Collinite 915- is that similar to the 845 then?
> 
> Have you tested C1 against etching (bird bombs etc)? My iniital tests (some on purpose, some not) are a bit disappointing.


Liquid Collinite is diluted with water, not solvent. So, different with 845.
We had SPEED 476 845 915 885

I order to test the ability of bird etching. I bought two birds...









I got the same result as you... But I had analyzed the reason.
Due to the sol-gel result will generate a lot of nano holes.
Like the picture:









This nano holes and fibers build hydrophobic surface.
It name "Lotus Effect".
The salt will permeate into the hole and crystal growth, then damage the paint and coating.

The solution is C3, after C1 curing, you must apply C3 immediately.
Then this surface will have very good hydrophobic surface and have ability of anti-calcification.
You can try again~ :thumb:


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## gtechrob

^^^ awesome Orion!!!

we were tight on the buying a bird front so instead borrowed some starlings and crows in the woods behind our unit. got some funny looks from dog walkers putting panels under the ****tiest trees we could find.

results are that nothing so far has much affect on preventing bird bombs. c1 did show good resistance but the bird lime still etches. although having said that we had a car in the other day for it's annual inspection - it had had plenty of bird droppings on it but the bird lime had only really etched into the c1 coating and not the paint and was very easy to correct.

Orion - i am going to send you some more c2 to play with as we have found this to be really excellent on top of c1 as a sacrificial layer so that water marks are really easy to remove. water marks on c1 are not as easy simply because it's a permanent coating so will never be as easy to remove water marks as ones that are sacrificial.

we will have to get some more panels under the tree to test for this too.


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## amiller

Rob, do you reccomend this C3 application after C1? I dont have any C3 so could I use C2 instead?

Polished Bliss' "Project Awesome" claims to have very good protective qualities against bird etchings so I have bought couple of bottles to try out. I thought C1 would have been good in this respect.

Orion- thanks again for you might insight. Have you tried C2 straight after C1 curing? Also, when has C1 cured? I know it goes off after about 2 minutes, but it must take 12+ hours to cure?


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## irsankao

Ha" orion you are awesome, seriously. You've gone that far to test it. 4 thumbs up, hand and feet.


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## orion613719

gtechrob said:


> ^^^ awesome Orion!!!
> 
> we were tight on the buying a bird front so instead borrowed some starlings and crows in the woods behind our unit. got some funny looks from dog walkers putting panels under the ****tiest trees we could find.
> 
> results are that nothing so far has much affect on preventing bird bombs. c1 did show good resistance but the bird lime still etches. although having said that we had a car in the other day for it's annual inspection - it had had plenty of bird droppings on it but the bird lime had only really etched into the c1 coating and not the paint and was very easy to correct.
> 
> Orion - i am going to send you some more c2 to play with as we have found this to be really excellent on top of c1 as a sacrificial layer so that water marks are really easy to remove. water marks on c1 are not as easy simply because it's a permanent coating so will never be as easy to remove water marks as ones that are sacrificial.
> 
> we will have to get some more panels under the tree to test for this too.


Hi bro,

Always thanks for your kindly support! :thumb:
I had bought 2 liter of C2 server month ago, and it's really had good performance.
Sometimes, we apply C2 after C1 curing, but I ask them to apply C3.
Because customer will use C3 to maintain their car, I train my customer how to maintain in the same time.

Whether coating or paint to be damaged, I can not explain with the customer.
We study this issue very long time, and do lots of test.
They always ask me:
1. Why do I wax after coating?
2. Why coating or paint can be damged by bird lime or hard water?

Please don't laugh, I play almost all coating or seal in the world, I also check all related patent in main countrys.(also watch Discovery everyday...)
I can say no solution, unless you can use plasma spray CF on the paint.
If We had no solution, why we need to coat? it's really a good question.
The coating is a surface modification materials, let paint don't fade and easy to clean.
The coating car let us save much time to maintain, I suggest all car need to coat first, no matter what coating you use, then you can use another product.



amiller said:


> Rob, do you reccomend this C3 application after C1? I dont have any C3 so could I use C2 instead?
> 
> Polished Bliss' "Project Awesome" claims to have very good protective qualities against bird etchings so I have bought couple of bottles to try out. I thought C1 would have been good in this respect.
> 
> Orion- thanks again for you might insight. Have you tried C2 straight after C1 curing? Also, when has C1 cured? I know it goes off after about 2 minutes, but it must take 12+ hours to cure?


I wait until the surface become astringent, then apply C3.
If no curing, the surface is slipping. (Because the state is still "gel")
The curing time depend on so many condition, this way is more easy.

I must say C1 is a amazing product finally, I do the C1 coating over 200 cars in past one year.
Very few customer complaints, almost zero, because they follow my way of maintainace.
I am very confident the 5 year guarantee. :thumb:



irsankao said:


> Ha" orion you are awesome, seriously. You've gone that far to test it. 4 thumbs up, hand and feet.


I learn from you all very much, thanks for all members of DW! :thumb:


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## fishbonezken

Nice one Orion!! 

Those two birds must be really lucky, all they do is eat and s**t everyday!

How would you compare the bird dropping resistance of C1 and G'Zox A+B?


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## orion613719

fishbonezken said:


> Nice one Orion!!
> 
> Those two birds must be really lucky, all they do is eat and s**t everyday!
> 
> How would you compare the bird dropping resistance of C1 and G'Zox A+B?


"all they do is eat and s**t everyday..."

Me too... :doublesho

the bird dropping resistance of C1 and G'Zox A+B is same.

http://www.gzox.com/beautiful/maintenance/004.asp
http://www.gzox.com/beautiful/maintenance/005.asp
G'ZOX also ask customer remove the dirty immediately by using hot water or clean wax.


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## gtechrob

amiller said:


> Rob, do you reccomend this C3 application after C1? I dont have any C3 so could I use C2 instead?
> 
> Polished Bliss' "Project Awesome" claims to have very good protective qualities against bird etchings so I have bought couple of bottles to try out. I thought C1 would have been good in this respect.
> 
> Orion- thanks again for you might insight. Have you tried C2 straight after C1 curing? Also, when has C1 cured? I know it goes off after about 2 minutes, but it must take 12+ hours to cure?


will be interested to see your findings on their product as every single product I have tested that says they provide significant protection against bird lime (we tested about 30) not one single product offered any noticeable protection. c1 offered some but bird lime still etched the paint.

for using c2 or c3 on top of c1. We generally recommend to not use anything for at least 8 months as c1 doesn't really need much in the way of maintenance. the only real reason we recommend using c2 QD ontop of c1 is to bring the beading back as this does inevitably begin to tail off on or around the 8 month mark due to a number of factors but quite often due to not sufficient rinsing after washing resulting in a build up of ionic acting soap residues which will kill any beading.

we recommend c2 as it is so easy to use but in reality c1 is not fussy about what goes on top.

for c1 cure time. this is dependent on humidity and temperature. In orion's case it will be 80% cured in less than an hour. on a cold British winter's day this can be about 6 hours.

But even though we recommend for eg not to get c1 wet for about 6 hours, we have had cars go straight out in the rain in winter with no problem whatsoever.


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## Auto Finesse

I enjoyed that thread alot, as a few here will know we have done alot of tests with sealants over the last couple of years for something in the pipeline.

Bird lime etching is very hard to protect against, we found nothing to be a 100% guard, however these newer "glass" "crystal" coatings offer a decent amount of protection a barrier of some sort.

The main thing we looked for was durability, easy clean and swirl resistance.


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## Bence

Bird poo can etch through the entire paint film matrix with its average 120 microns thickness, so I think it should be obvious for everyone that a 2-5 microns thick coating can not do wonders. Don't underestimate the acidity of bird excrements!


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## orion613719

james b said:


> I enjoyed that thread alot, as a few here will know we have done alot of tests with sealants over the last couple of years for something in the pipeline.
> 
> Bird lime etching is very hard to protect against, we found nothing to be a 100% guard, however these newer "glass" "crystal" coatings offer a decent amount of protection a barrier of some sort.
> 
> The main thing we looked for was durability, easy clean and swirl resistance.


Yes! I agree with you!
*The main thing we looked for was durability, easy clean and swirl resistance.*
This is what I always talk to my customer.

But, I found one clear coat can stop bird lime and hard water etching well.
I build a new division in my detailing shop now.















I plan to coat the PPG ceramic clear coat for customer.









According to my test, after coat PPG ceramic clear coat D8105, then apply coating or seal, this is the most effective way! :thumb:


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## Auto Finesse

Thats some serious set up your building :thumb:

So your going to basically lay another coat of clear coat over the cars paintwork? will you have to strip alot of the car down (remove trim etc) ? or are you basically spraying a "glass" coating down (ie tape and mask up first)


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## gtechrob

looking good orion.

will send some s1 down with your next delivery as this might interest you in this respect. it is designed as a bare metal non flaking lacquer type coating but as it is so dense it is also used as an anti graffiti coating. if you could get it onto a surface right I don't think there's much out there that would impact it.


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## orion613719

james b said:


> Thats some serious set up your building :thumb:
> 
> So your going to basically lay another coat of clear coat over the cars paintwork? will you have to strip alot of the car down (remove trim etc) ? or are you basically spraying a "glass" coating down (ie tape and mask up first)


I will lay another coat of clear coat over the cars paintwork, and take out all trim.
I got PPG Taiwan technical support.


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## orion613719

gtechrob said:


> looking good orion.
> 
> will send some s1 down with your next delivery as this might interest you in this respect. it is designed as a bare metal non flaking lacquer type coating but as it is so dense it is also used as an anti graffiti coating. if you could get it onto a surface right I don't think there's much out there that would impact it.


Thanks a lot! I always forget to order S1 from you...


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## orion613719

This is our testing car 

We try it in Taiwan BMW, we keep the original paint.
Grind 3~5 um by using #1200 sandpaper.









Result:

















another testing car:









These two car is still very good after 3~6 month. No any etching mark.


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## amiller

streaks ahead of UK's best detailing by the looks of things. :thumb:


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## amiller

orion613719 said:


> We try it in Taiwan BMW, we keep the original paint.
> Grind 3~5 um by using #1200 sandpaper.


I presume the 1200 sanding eliminates the orange peel that most BMW's have? Is it a DA sander you use? :speechles


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## Goodfella36

when i see threads like this and ones from thailand company make me just wish i had the spare cash to go over and see there set up looks amazing :thumb:


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## JJ_

Amazing!!


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## orion613719

amiller said:


> I presume the 1200 sanding eliminates the orange peel that most BMW's have? Is it a DA sander you use? :speechles


Yes, we use DA sander to grind 3~5 um original clear coat.
And add 40 um PPG D8105 on it.
So, original paint will increase 35um thickness.

Then, we will polish it, and apply C1, AQuartz or Zaino.


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## orion613719

amiller said:


> streaks ahead of UK's best detailing by the looks of things. :thumb:


This is the most beautiful detailing shop in Taiwan :thumb:


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## Tiauguinho

This is a very informative thread, thank you so much for sharing! 

How about Nanolex, what have you tried from their range and what were your findings, when compared to Gtechniq and G'ZOX?


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## Auto Finesse

orion613719 said:


> This is the most beautiful detailing shop in Taiwan :thumb:


Eeerm WOW! :doublesho:tumbleweed:


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## orion613719

Tiauguinho said:


> This is a very informative thread, thank you so much for sharing!
> 
> How about Nanolex, what have you tried from their range and what were your findings, when compared to Gtechniq and G'ZOX?


You can find many Nanolex test thread on DW. 

I know this kind of coating all come from sol-gel method.
They are nanocomposites, you can find the detail here:
http://www.solgel.com/sgforum/forum_topics.asp?FID=4

Many people like to disscuss about which country make that coating.
I think there are no any meaning.

Even I can make very nice sol-gel coating in my garage.

















But, the cost is very very high, so I would prefer to continue to buy from Rob. 

I thinks most important thing is maintainace, the coating is not omnipotent.


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## *MAGIC*

Great thread.


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## 738ALR

This is an amazing thread - one of the finest I've seen on DW.


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## gtechrob

orion613719 said:


> This is the most beautiful detailing shop in Taiwan :thumb:


but Orion...

you guys are going to totally outbling these amateurs with your new setup right? :thumb::lol:

rob


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## fishbonezken

Orion,
Do you have a degree in chemical engineering or something?? LOL


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## Porta

*MAGIC* said:


> Great thread.


I second.


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## orion613719

gtechrob said:


> but Orion...
> 
> you guys are going to totally outbling these amateurs with your new setup right? :thumb::lol:
> 
> rob


Rob,

Why some wax/seal test, A is good in one report, but no good in another testing report.
Same product must have same performance in any one place!
I also have been very confused of the different durability on my customer's car several months ago.

I found the reason now, that is because different surface tension in each car.
I think this affect coating's durability hugely.
Before coating, we need to increase the surface dyne to 30 up.
The solvent will greatly reduced the surface dyne. It will weaken bonding power very much.

So, I tell you I want to buy a plasma cleaner to increase the surface dyne.
I found suitable one finally. but... 33,000 USD!!! :doublesho

One day, I visit a solar panel factory, they are coating the solar panel.
I discuss with their engineer about the relationship with the coating and surface tension.
They very care this point, and use dyne pen to check the surface tension.
Like this way to control the surface tension, then coating.

*Flame Treatment*





*Plasma Treatment*





Both two ways is very very expensive for detailing shop...(First way is very dangerous)
After discuss with some surface engineers, I try to use chemical.
Sodium hydroxide can increase the dyne number many!
I got very stable coating quality now. :thumb:

Just provided for your reference, hope everyone can get the best performance of each seal or coat~


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## gtechrob

interesting. question is were these cars looked after in exactly the same way as there may be other factors in play here. the more we learn about surface maintenance the more we understand that seemingly random and insignificant factors can impact on performance.

also - how were you judging durability? 

have forwarded your post to our chemical engineer for him to comment on.


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## PhillipM

Might be quite fun trying to program each individual car into a bar flame arm....


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## orion613719

The testing update today:

This car no wash already 3 months.
Very dirty....

This side is G'ZOX

























=======================================================

This side is Gtechniq

































=======================================================

Almost same, right?

see the video:





We wash it 

















After wash

















Both side had water mark









see the video after wash:





finish

















Will continue to track~ :wave:


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## Bence

Signs of weakening...


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## irsankao

Does it mean though it is coated, regular washing is a must?


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## maesal

Wow, I hoped another results...
Thanks for the info !!


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## Cquartz

Thats exactly why we think that water repellent is not the most important issue in such coatings.
and less important for real paint protection.
according to those pics and video , there is no coating anymore on that bonnet.
while i think there is still something on it, only the hydrophobic surface structure has faded badly
correct me if im wrong Orion.


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## orion613719

Bence said:


> Signs of weakening...





irsankao said:


> Does it mean though it is coated, regular washing is a must?





Aquartz said:


> Thats exactly why we think that water repellent is not the most important issue in such coatings.
> and less important for real paint protection.
> according to those pics and video , there is no coating anymore on that bonnet.
> while i think there is still something on it, only the hydrophobic surface structure has faded badly
> correct me if im wrong Orion.


I talk about this many times in this post and here

If you want to keep the ability of hydrophobic, you must use liquid carnauba(Water base).
Because, these coating don't have permanent hydrophobic material.
If they use permanent hydrophobic material, it will be very expensive.

And, if they lose ability of hydrophobic on someday, it means "disappear" ?
No, they still there, just don't have ability of hydrophobic.

Anyway, the surface is still easy to wash and had high gloss. :thumb:

For the water mark, I still can not find the product or method to prevent.


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## Bence

Irsankao, if you want to pamper your paint, you give it tender loving care, wash it gently, protect it - and it's 120 microns thick (average). So why does anyone think that if you slap on a 2-5 microns thick coating, or more commonly, a 20-30 nanometers thick wax layer, they will act like a miraculous field, which can defend everything imaginable?

Grit particles can scratch through the entire paint, down to the bare metal, no coating will stop that. Yes a coating is harder, so it may lessen the environmental impacts, but you still have to care for your paint as usual.
Same with bird excrements; as it can remove the entire paint film, so in order to protect the coating, you have to pamper it, otherwise no coating can hinder the damage in the long term.

Orion, yep, every coating can be damaged by acidity (water, insects, bird poo, etc). The hood reminds me of my own test with the 1st gen AQ. There were countless spots over the entire surface, which were looking as water damage. The surface wasn't rinsing clean, it remained spotty - even with a fresh layer of coating. It was highly unusual, because with heavy waxes the surface rinses absolutely perfectly spotless and basically dry. My paint was very old, dry and permeable, so maybe that explains it. What was the prep and previous protection for that Mitsu?


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## TPC3

Orion,
Some years back we did a trial. We use to shampoo a black car with a combo shampoo (polymer as well neutral). Once a month we would not use a detailer liquid but just a 5-10% water solution of the final surface cleaner (which has no abrasives). 

The black car was the shiniest car in the parking lot of 50 cars. Also it had the least dust on it. 

This car was sold to another customer. He did not do this regular maintenance which we did. I saw the car after two months and it was horrible. Dull, scratched and attracted dust like hell. 

While the car was with us for 3 yrs, it was in pristine condition with simple after care. All it had was an acrylic paint sealant.

So I feel no matter how good the sealant is, everyone would need their own after care routine depending on highway driving, garage parking etc habits.

Any sort of grime left on the car is finally going to etch into the thin protective layer.


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## Auto Finesse

The results on the black car are a little disappointing for just 3 months, i have to agree that after care has a huge significance, not washing a vehicle for 3months is a little excessive, most people will wash there car a couple of times a month (some weekly and im sure 1 or 2 DWers daily LOL)

Id like to say thanks Orion for sharing all this with us, your clearly taking you tests pretty serious, i thought what i have been doing to be pretty advanced the last 12-18 months but you just blew mine out the water with the whole plasma treatment thing :doublesho

I have extensively tested all types of sealants and put them through real life testing as well, its tough, iv also had some sealants fair well on one paint type and fade badly on others, the surface dyne makes alot of sense :speechles


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## orion613719

Bence said:


> What was the prep and previous protection for that Mitsu?


Nothing, we do a polish, clean it, then apply G and C1.
And no any clean or protect after that.


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## Tiauguinho

So, in your opinion, what is the advantage of such a product, if you lay a new coat of wax every 2 months?


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## orion613719

Tiauguinho said:


> So, in your opinion, what is the advantage of such a product, if you lay a new coat of wax every 2 months?


easy to clean, high gloss,don't fade

It depend on dirty level, not depend on how much time.
I suggest to maintain it when it begin to dirty.
Just wash it, use QD product to maintain it.
It only took you 30 minutes.


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## gtechrob

just to add my 2p and some images of test panels we have done too which further illustrates some key points about surface care.

Orion is on the money regarding hydrophobicity. This function is not permanent but it is a mistake to judge a coating's durability by whether or not it has stopped repelling water. The hydrophobicity will be affected by a multitude of factors, one of them being not washing a surface regularly. Others include not rinsing the surface after washing properly leaving behind soap residues which means you have ionic molecules left on the surface which will stop the hydrophobic function of the coating.

In essence a C1 coated car is covered with tiny water repelling hairs. (see here for details). As many will know, one of the goals of coatings engineers is to engineer a coating that mimics how a lotus leaf stays perfectly clean. But clearly this is only one function. We also need the coating to offer a super high gloss (a lotus leaf is matt afterall), as well as being technically possible to apply (for eg when we first started developing c1 it needed baking on at 200 degrees :doublesho , and offering a bunch of other functionality that we wanted eg stain resistance and uv resistance.

So that the coatings are not repelling water so well after three months of not washing does not suprise me. Nor does the fact that there are water spots.

But don't take that in any way that the coatings have failed. We know from various tests both lab and real world that C1 will be present on the surface pretty much indefinately. It is, afterall by dint of its chemical bond, the actual functional surface of your car/boat/plane. It is as permanent as the paint it's chemically bonded to.

But surface care is not so straightforward. We do offer a lifetime warranty with c1 which is in reality a maintenance plan as as a company comprised of individuals who have been and are involved in surface care for a living, we know that maintenance is key. Water spotting is a good eg. As c1 is a permanent coating it makes water spots relatively hard to remove. This is because it doesn't sacrifice any of itself whereas other products - c2 in particular is excellent for this - is sacrificial so you can remove water spots extremely easily.

See here for details of our lifetime warranty which explains the maintenance schedule.

Having said all the above let me pop up a couple of pics which will do the talking. These panels were left completely un maintained in a highly polluted environment which has massive amounts of rainfall, humidity, uv and chemical and biological pollutants. For those of you who have been to places like Hong Kong, you will no doubt have noticed the condition of exterior painted surfaces. They deteriorate massively quickly as compared to Europe/North America etc.


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## Tiauguinho

And can C1 have a carnauba wax on top, without compromising the C1 layer? Will the wax layer bond correctly with C1?

Thanks for the feedback BTW, lots of good information


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## orion613719

Tiauguinho said:


> And can C1 have a carnauba wax on top, without compromising the C1 layer? Will the wax layer bond correctly with C1?
> 
> Thanks for the feedback BTW, lots of good information


It's no problem, C3 is very nice on it! :thumb:


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## Tiauguinho

Is C1 wheel friendly? Or will it encounter problems with the higher temperatures?


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## orion613719

Tiauguinho said:


> Is C1 wheel friendly? Or will it encounter problems with the higher temperatures?


no problem, even use on exhaust

http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showpost.php?p=2158760&postcount=3

http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=155595


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## Tiauguinho

Ok, will try it out next time I take my wheels off


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## gtechrob

as orion says - c1 very heat resistant so works on wheels fine - as does c5


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## pootoo12000

So, Orion, do you apply sodium hydroxide directly to the paint prior to coating? If so, how? At what concentration? And wouldn't your surface tension theory apply to any LSP that "bonds" to paint? Very interesting! Thanks!


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## orion613719

pootoo12000 said:


> So, Orion, do you apply sodium hydroxide directly to the paint prior to coating? If so, how? At what concentration? And wouldn't your surface tension theory apply to any LSP that "bonds" to paint? Very interesting! Thanks!


Hi pootoo,

C1 is PH 7, PH value is greater than 7 will accelerate the curing time.
This is sol-gel characteristic.

See attached table:
1.1







1.2








We use the PH 9 of aqueous solution wipe before coating, within server hours, the surface tension will resume.
So, need to work quickly. this method is suitable for any adhesive, glue, coating work.


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## gioprivatemove

Orion, could you PM me C1 and C2 price? I live in Indonesia.

I believe Taiwan and Indonesia is very different environment, high pollution, high humidity, bad water quality, and terrible traffic that affect premature wax breakdown (especially on hood). My car paint is a black single stage paint, no wax or sealant that can stands on my hood. i still can get good gloss over a month and but not a clean hood, water marks, bird drop etched and tree sap.

this is photo example of my car when i bought it. It kept coming like this.









Hope can try Gtechniq....


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## big ben

im glad i found this thread, very informative! thanks orion and rob for sharing


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## OzMoSiS

This is one of the most technical and educational threads I have read on here, and thats saying a lot as there are tons of fantasticaly informative threads here.

A huge thumbs up to you Orion for making the time and effort to share this information with us :thumb:

@ Gtechrob, the warranty link goes to a pdf file which is blank???


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## orion613719

OzMoSiS said:


> This is one of the most technical and educational threads I have read on here, and thats saying a lot as there are tons of fantasticaly informative threads here.
> 
> A huge thumbs up to you Orion for making the time and effort to share this information with us :thumb:
> 
> @ Gtechrob, the warranty link goes to a pdf file which is blank???


Thanks!

During these month, I learn much, if had chance, I will share more~ :wave:


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## OneDetail

Thanks Orion and Rob for the enlightenment. 

I totally agree on the part where no matter what product we use on the cars, at the end of the day it all boils down to maintenance. 
I once saw a black car. 3 yrs old, hasn't been wax once since out of the showroom. Zero water spots. Why?
Cos the driver washed in daily. Yes, there are very fine lines (being black everything is visible), but NO water etching. 
But of course, there's the lack of that shine that all of us are yearning for. 

I've tried from Z*mol to Swissvax and now Gtechniq. And i must say, Rob's stuffs are amazing. It's a different league as compared to those boutique wax. 

As i am the appointed detailer for the Ferrari agent here, I get to try different product and witness different results. 

During the recent Singapore F1, the 599XX was in town and i had the pleasure to prep it up for the pre-race run. No correction was done, only IPA rub down and C2 application. ANd the results are stunning. It brings out the metallic flakes in the paintwork and the lines of the car. Same result on the other 458s, Californias and 599s. 

The thing about C2, it lacks the warm glow of waxes (which some of my clients prefer), but it makes it up with the clean, sharp reflection. 
Personal test on my car with C2. Its a run-of-the-mill car from hyundai, i30 wagon. 
I used to apply wax every 2 weeks. Parked in shelter at home, but its exposed to the rain and shine whenever its out. Wash every 3 days. After 4 months, i discovered there are still watermarks etched right into the paintwork. I had at least 10 layers of wax at any point of time, yet its not robust enough to resist mother nature. 
So, after did so many research, i decided to go with G. 
After corrected the paintwork, applied C2 neat. 
Initial observation, it gives a very nice reflection, lines appear where it supposed to be, lights seemed to bounce off here and there. 

So the test. No more parking under shelter at home or anywhere. Leave it under the weather. I find it stays clean longer than before. 
And i wash only ONCE a week. 
And each time after i wash, i notice that there's no water marks. Even after more exposure to the weather and lesser washing frequency. 
Right until now, it still stays that way. Impressive.

At the moment, I'm trying to close a private plane deal, which i'm gonna use Rob's stuffs. 

I have also just officially partnered with a company that deals with the world's first Transition Window Films for Automotive and Commercial use. Amazing stuffs, forefront in solar film technology. Anyone interested to be a Dealer over there? :thumb:


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## exssrerion

In my country doesn't have G'ZOX distributor.
Please let me know where I can buy G'ZOX on online shop?


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## Eurogloss

orion613719 said:


> easy to apply, and very hydrophobic.
> but, it need 21 days for curing


Great review orion613719,

It sounds a bit like Optimum, Opti-Guard ( or Opti-Coat) which i have used three times and is a great product :thumb:

The only difference is 12 hours to cure totally against 21 days :doublesho

Why 21 days ?:speechles

Regards Mario


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## MajorB

Thanks a lot to @Orion for valuable information and really putting your effort in it. Also thanks to @gtechrob for explaining some interesting facts about your products - can`t wait my proforma order to become an order 

Keep up the good work :thumb:


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## bunyarra

Thanks to both for the very informative posts. Shame the images from Rob's last missive are not showing.

Don't think I can look at my car again without thinking of it needing of a good shave from the hairy coating


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## exssrerion

Can I buy G'ZOX to use at home?


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## IDwash&wax

How many coat (Layer) did you apply G'zox Plus Gloss Type on Bonnet?


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## Wils0n

orion613719 said:


> The testing update today:
> 
> This car no wash already 3 months.
> Very dirty....
> 
> Will continue to track~ :wave:


Hi Orion,

Was searching for comparison between different coatings and found the thread extremely informative.

From the photo of after washing, the G'Zox side seems more glossy and lesser water mark. Is this the case or just angle of the photo being shot?

You also mentioned that you tried using Sodium hydroxide to increase the dyne number of the surface. What's the dilution rate you use and how's much improvement in durability do you experienced?

Thanks for sharing so much valuable knowledge and insights.


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## Mango

This has been a fascinating thread to read. I'm based in Bangkok and there are a many places opening up and selling Japanese and Korean 'Glass Coats' but trying to find any info in English was difficult until I came across this thread. Thanks to all involved!


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## zas

orion613719 said:


> I will lay another coat of clear coat over the cars paintwork, and take out all trim.
> I got PPG Taiwan technical support.


PPG is good stuff...


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## david_pupu

hi orion, 

great stuff you have, can i ask how the way you diluting paste wax ??


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## Flakey

Brain freeze! This thread is HEAVY.


----------



## jenks

WARNING! Thread resurrection


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## Alan W

jenks said:


> WARNING! Thread resurrection


.......and fully justified in my opinion. :thumb: it was myself that posted a link to this epic Thread in another one today.

Alan W


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## NipponShine

There is a kind of this version called the new glass coat!
I have read this awhile ago! Now the structure should go like this!
-High Mohs coat
-Quartz 7
-New real glass coat
-Real glass coat with gloss
-Fusso glass coat

Please correct me if im wrong


----------

