# Homebrew hybrid



## ZTChris

I thought id give 'homebrewing' a go. No really a true homebrew, more a mixture, but this is what i did..

I had a Dodo Juice Panel pot of Diamond White, which is nice, but i found rather small to get the applicator into so i thought id melt it and put it into the lid of my FK1000P, while melting i had the idea of adding some of the Finish Kare..

They mixed! 1:1 didnt curdle or separate

Then i had a silly idea, why no add a little Body wrap? One teaspoon full, seemed to mix in ok.

So i now have a synthetic natural nano wax sealant!

Will give it a try later.


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## KneeDragr

Sounds cool. Next time throw in some polycharger!


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## BandyQuill

the question is, what does it do on your car?


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## ZTChris

Will find out later, just waiting for it to warm up a bit outside. Its a crystal clear day if a little cold

Tired it on my spare boot lid which is in my loft room. Seems good, easy on, easy off, no streaks or patchiness, good gloss, flakes still sparkle (car is Silver).


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## ZTChris

Most hybrids are just that anyway, a mixture. Like synthetic oil, which isnt synthetic, just modified. To be honest FK1000P is already a hybrid, this mix just adds a lot of natural wax to the blend.


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## cheekymonkey

ZTChris said:


> Most hybrids are just that anyway, a mixture. Like synthetic oil, which isnt synthetic, just modified. To be honest FK1000P is already a hybrid, this mix just adds a lot of natural wax to the blend.


fk1000p is full synthetic and contains no wax, so is a sealant.


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## ZTChris

FK1000P is a sort of hybrid. Its synthetic, but a synthetic wax, not a liquid polymer like the acrylic or nano sealants.

Well, ive tried it and i like it!! 

Its glassy, so you still have pop, but it looks glossier, slightly warmer and deeper than 1000P on its own, or body wrap. 

Will try for a picture later.


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## ZTChris

Best i can do for now, need to wait for the sun to come back out and move so the car is out of shadow.


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## cheekymonkey

ZTChris said:


> FK1000P is a sort of hybrid. Its synthetic, but a synthetic wax, not a liquid polymer like the acrylic or nano sealants.
> 
> Well, ive tried it and i like it!!
> 
> Its glassy, so you still have pop, but it looks glossier, slightly warmer and deeper than 1000P on its own, or body wrap.
> 
> Will try for a picture later.


a synthetic wax is a sealant. there are many that are called a wax that are actually a sealant. NXT is synthetic but known as a wax and its just for marketing thats all. to be a hybrid it needs to be synthetic and natural wax.


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## ZTChris

Either way, its marketing as you say, and no one and everyone is right in the world of marketing! Some have one view, others the other.

My true hybrid is working well. Ive tried all lot of things over the last year to get the effect i want, this seems to be it.


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## Dodo Factory

cheekymonkey said:


> fk1000p is full synthetic and contains no wax, so is a sealant.


Evidence????

My guess is that it is actually contains a large amount of carnauba, giving it the distinctive colour that it has (the strong solvents take the colour out of carnauba effectively). It may also contain synthetic waxes, ie waxes of synthetic origin rather than natural origin.

Most of the synthetic waxes tend to be clear or white in colour. The yellowness is a real trait of carnauba.

Whilst I love a bit of guesswork as much as the next Sherlock Holmes, it does no-one any favours to be extremely forthright unless you happen to be in a position of absolute knowledge (ie the chemist at FinishKare).


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## ZTChris

Im now wondering if Dodo Juice Supernatural Hybrid will give me the finish of my mix. As i said i love FK1000P, but its just a tad too cold, hence my experiment.


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## Dodo Factory

It's difficult to say as it gets very subjective once the wax/sealant gets to a certain level. It'll be a similar type of product so the look won't be wildly different, at a guess.


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## cheekymonkey

Dodo Factory said:


> Evidence????
> 
> My guess is that it is actually contains a large amount of carnauba, giving it the distinctive colour that it has (the strong solvents take the colour out of carnauba effectively). It may also contain synthetic waxes, ie waxes of synthetic origin rather than natural origin.
> 
> Most of the synthetic waxes tend to be clear or white in colour. The yellowness is a real trait of carnauba.
> 
> Whilst I love a bit of guesswork as much as the next Sherlock Holmes, it does no-one any favours to be extremely forthright unless you happen to be in a position of absolute knowledge (ie the chemist at FinishKare).


 you cant tell anything by colour alone as as you are aware any colour can be added, like purple haze isn't made from purple wax is it.
another big clue is its resistance to high temp, wax cant withstand that high a temp. there is also the fact that they also do a hybrid as well. the pink wax is a hybrid fk1000p is a sealant. 
no need to play sherlock just read up and use it will tell you its a sealant.

http://www.cleanyourcar.co.uk/sealants/finishkare-1000p-hi-temp-sealant/prod_589.html

http://www.cleanyourcar.co.uk/wax/finishkare-2685-pink-wax/prod_590.html


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## ZTChris

Either way, wax is wax, whether natural or synthetic. If the compound 'waxes' its a wax whether it came from the ground, a tree or a conical flask.

The use of the term 'sealant' is actually vague in the detailing world and has come to mean anything that's not a _natural_ wax, but FK1000P contains a wax.


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## cheekymonkey

ZTChris said:


> Either way, wax is wax, whether natural or synthetic. If the compound 'waxes' its a wax whether it came from the ground, a tree or a conical flask.
> 
> The use of the term 'sealant' is actually vague in the detailing world and has come to mean anything that's not a _natural_ wax, but FK1000P contains a wax.


fk100p dosent contain wax its pure synthetic and its the term wax that is vague theres alsorts of products from sealants to all in ones and hybrids that are called wax.


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## cheekymonkey

read this 1 from manufacturer them self, hope it helps.

http://www.finishkare.com/pr-STEP_3_Hi-Temp_Paste_Wax_60_14_2.htm


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## ZTChris

Your missing the point, just because its synthetic it doesn't means its not wax. Waxes dont have to be natural, they can be synthetic. Anything that 'waxes' is a wax. Fully synthetic polymers will wax.

What detailing product manufacturers call wax is immaterial, 'wax' is a definable chemical property.


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## cheekymonkey

ZTChris said:


> Your missing the point, just because its synthetic it doesn't means its not wax. Waxes dont have to be natural, they can be synthetic. Anything that 'waxes' is a wax. Fully synthetic polymers will wax.
> 
> What detailing product manufacturers call wax is immaterial, 'wax' is a definable chemical property.


a wax is a natural product and as such is a wax, a synthetic product even if its know as a synthetic wax is a sealant. a sealant is a the term for man made wax. 
that is the difference between wax and sealant. look on all the traders who stock fk1000p they all place it in the sealant sections.


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## ZTChris

Well thats wrong in chemistry. Not only that but not all the manufacturers agree, thats why some hybrids are a mix and some are wax like sealants. 

The use of the terms sealant and wax are simply loosely followed detailing conventions, not the correct chemical terms. 

FK1000P is often refereed to as a hybrid on here.


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## cheekymonkey

ZTChris said:


> Well thats wrong in chemistry. Not only that but not all the manufacturers agree, thats why some hybrids are a mix and some are wax like sealants.
> 
> The use of the terms sealant and wax are simply loosely followed detailing conventions, not the correct chemical terms.
> 
> FK1000P is often refereed to as a hybrid on here.


all sealant are wax like because they are both lsp the diffrence is 1 is synthetic (sealant) and one is natural (wax) and a hybrid is both together. if synthetic is liquid or paste it is still a sealant.
dont take it from me heres some one who's been doing detailing longer that most

http://www.meguiarsonline.com/forums/showthread.php?28676-Is-it-a-wax-Or-a-paint-sealant


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## ZTChris

As i said (and as the link says) thats just convention, not a hard rule and not everyone or every manufacturer follows that convention. 

Personally i dont care, but i would be annoyed by a product claiming to be a wax that has no ingredient in it that waxes. FK1000P has ingredients that wax.

Its just the same in the engine oil world. Synthetic oil may not be made in a lab at all, it CAN be natural oil thats been modified. Its not really synthetic, but they are allowed to claim it as such.

Whatever my mix is a hybrid of natural and synthetic.. :thumb:


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## cheekymonkey

ZTChris said:


> As i said (and as the link says) thats just convention, not a hard rule and not everyone or every manufacturer follows that convention.
> 
> Personally i dont care, but i would be annoyed by a product claiming to be a wax that has no ingredient in it that waxes. FK1000P has ingredients that wax.
> 
> Its just the same in the engine oil world. Synthetic oil may not be made in a lab at all, it CAN be natural oil thats been modified. Its not really synthetic, but they are allowed to claim it as such.
> 
> Whatever my mix is a hybrid of natural and synthetic.. :thumb:[/QUOTE
> 
> thats the point manufactures call synthetic sealants a wax not because its a wax but because mr normal doesn't know what a sealant is. fk1000p doesn't wax your car it seals it and yes there is a difference between waxing and sealing, and if you don't no the difference it can cost you a lot of wasted money time effort and product. A wax works in a diffrent way to a sealant.
> the difference between oils and lsp's is synthetic sealants are not a natural product thats been refined, they are fully man made hence synthetic.
> yes your right yours is a proper hybrid as it contains natural and synthetic, and i wasn't haveing a go at you or your product, just thought if you are going to play with products would help if you knew what they were


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## ZTChris

Your still obsessing about the detailing convention. Waxing (the physical event that substances undergo at certain temperatures, not the 'applying to a car body' event) is a fixed process in chemisty. Wax refers to a class of chemical compounds that are plastic (malleable) near ambient temperatures. Characteristically, they melt above 45 °C (113 °F) to give a low viscosity liquid. Waxes are insoluble in water but soluble in organic, nonpolar solvents. All waxes are organic compounds, both synthetic and naturally occurring.

FK1000P DOES wax because it undergoes waxing (not because it 'waxes' your car) because it is a wax. It may well be a sealant in detailing convention, but it most certainly is also a wax.

The term 'sealant' in detailing convention is a very vague term indeed. Technically a wax seals the paint as well.


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## cheekymonkey

ZTChris said:


> Your still obsessing about the detailing convention. Waxing (the physical event that substances undergo at certain temperatures, not the 'applying to a car body' event) is a fixed process in chemisty. Wax refers to a class of chemical compounds that are plastic (malleable) near ambient temperatures. Characteristically, they melt above 45 °C (113 °F) to give a low viscosity liquid. Waxes are insoluble in water but soluble in organic, nonpolar solvents. All waxes are organic compounds, both synthetic and naturally occurring.
> 
> FK1000P DOES wax because it undergoes waxing (not because it 'waxes' your car) because it is a wax. It may well be a sealant in detailing convention, but it most certainly is also a wax.
> 
> The term 'sealant' in detailing convention is a very vague term indeed. Technically a wax seals the paint as well.


this is detailing not chemistry, so we are talking in detailing terms, so in detailing terms a wax is a natural product and a synthetic product is a sealant
your trying to bring in something that has no terms in detailing
waxes are soluble in water i have done it .and there are water based products which contain natural wax
sealant is anything but vague were as wax is use out of context alot. 
fk 1000p is a sealant don't care what you try to call it in the lab it is synthetic so is a sealant. thats the way it is in this detailing life we all lead and it works great for us all as a sealant and a wax work different in our world 
and thats how we like it we know which is which. calling them all wax wont work in this text. so in detailing as we are a wax is a natural product and a synthetic is a sealant. dont care what the rest of the world want to call them.


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## ZTChris

I do understand that, but what confuses the issue more is that Finish Kare dont call FK1000P.. FK1000P.. thats the product code its become known as, its actually called Big White Hi-Temp Paste Wax.

Doing a bit of digging it seems a real sealant chemically bonds to the paint, whereas a wax just cures on it. FK1000P does both making it a true hybrid in every sense.

Waxes are not water soluble.. ever, however the water based ones contain detergents that emulsify the waxes. They arent dissolved they are emulsified.


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## cheekymonkey

ZTChris said:


> I do understand that, but what confuses the issue more is that Finish Kare dont call FK1000P.. FK1000P.. thats the product code its become known as, its actually called Big White Hi-Temp Paste Wax.
> 
> Doing a bit of digging it seems a real sealant chemically bonds to the paint, whereas a wax just cures on it. FK1000P does both making it a true hybrid in every sense.
> 
> Waxes are not water soluble.. ever, however the water based ones contain detergents that emulsify the waxes. They arent dissolved they are emulsified.


big white hi-temp paste wax comes from fk direct the fk1000p comes from the main distributer and comes in the same tin but with a diffrent label on saying fk1000p, and it synthetic which makes it a sealant. where as if you look into the wide range of waxes that are available most of them could be called hybrid as there both natural and synthetic. its the introduction of the synthetics that make them easier to use. theres not many real waxes left.


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## ZTChris

We will have to agree to disagree on this. Whatever the detailing convention its technically wrong, it is a wax chemically and physically. Its not a solution, short chain polymer or nano scale polymer, Its a wax that also acts in the way the detailing industry says a sealant does.


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## cheekymonkey

ZTChris said:


> We will have to agree to disagree on this. Whatever the detailing convention its technically wrong, it is a wax chemically and physically. Its not a solution, short chain polymer or nano scale polymer, Its a wax that also acts in the way the detailing industry says a sealant does.


theres a lot more to it than that in the detailing world and they are call different for that reason. a natural wax can sit on top of a oil based glaze where a sealant can't, the oil will stop it bonding to the paint. a sealant can be topped with a wax but a wax can't be topped with a sealant as again it cant bond with the paint a sealant can be layered as many times as you like (within reason) were as wax 2/3 max coats. now if they were all called wax it would be mis leading as too which can do what and what do you use before hand.


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## ZTChris

Yeah its about bonding i realise that. However FK1000P can sit on oily products, ive tried it, because its both a wax and a sealant. A true hybrid. It might be a 'one chemical' hybrid rather than a mix, but is actions are hybrid.

I wouldnt dream of putting a true sealant (like Body Wrap or Opti-coat) on anything but clean paint or an approved base coat product.

My homebrew is sitting on wolfs Seal and shine.


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## cheekymonkey

ZTChris said:


> Yeah its about bonding i realise that. However FK1000P can sit on oily products, ive tried it, because its both a wax and a sealant. A true hybrid. It might be a 'one chemical' hybrid rather than a mix, but is actions are hybrid.
> 
> I wouldnt dream of putting a true sealant (like Body Wrap or Opti-coat) on anything but clean paint or an approved base coat product.
> 
> My homebrew is sitting on wolfs Seal and shine.


i dont know about it sitting on a oil based product as firstly it is quite solvent heavy so would argue it will remove the previous product, also you can put a lot of sealants onto of a oil based product and it will seem to be ok but isnt.fk 1000p is synthetic so makes it a sealant.


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## ZTChris

:lol: We will have to disagree. I doubt 1000P will remove seal and shine, even Tardis wont remove it all.

All i will say is if i were to make Carnubra wax in a lab from chemicals rather than squeeze it from a tree, would it then be a sealant?

If it looks like a wax, smells like a wax, acts like a wax and feels like a wax.. its a wax! Finish Kare say its a wax so..


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## cheekymonkey

if carnubra was man made then it would be a sealant. and finish kare says its a synthetic. and if you look at the retailers who sell it they have it in the sealant section some of these have been detailing for years so i thing they know a sealant when they see one.
fk is to glassy in looks to be a wax,doesn't act like a wax and doesn't feel like a wax so 1 out of 4 will tell you its a sealant.:thumb:
what car did you use the oil base then fk on?


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## ZTChris

It does feel like a wax, it feels identical in use to the diamond white Dodo juice i mixed it with!

It looks glassy and Carnubra looks warm, but other natural waxes (white paraffin wax) also look glassy, they just arent hard enough for car use on their own. so its still 4 for 4.

Ive use all sorts on my ZT trying to find a combo i like. Sealants, glazes, waxes and layers of all sorts.

I still feel you are holding on to the synthetic=sealant thing. As i said a synthetic wax can behave exactly like a natural wax, so why is it suddenly a sealant? 'Just because' isnt a good answer. 

A sealant has to do something that a wax doesnt. FK1000P does, but its also a true wax, that makes it a hybrid because it also does things true sealants dont.


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## McClane

cheekymonkey said:


> if carnubra was man made then it would be a sealant.


Sorry, but the most :wall: thing I've read in a while.

What you're describing are arbitrary words and categories that have nothing to do with the physical properties things themselves. They'd be called a whole host of other things in other languages... and would happen to have the same properties whether we were around to name them or not.

There's a difference between knowing the name of something and knowing something.

OP, let us know how your new mixture of "car protection products of variable origins" gets on. :thumb:


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## cheekymonkey

ZTChris said:


> It does feel like a wax, it feels identical in use to the diamond white Dodo juice i mixed it with!
> 
> It looks glassy and Carnubra looks warm, but other natural waxes (white paraffin wax) also look glassy, they just arent hard enough for car use on their own. so its still 4 for 4.
> 
> Ive use all sorts on my ZT trying to find a combo i like. Sealants, glazes, waxes and layers of all sorts.
> 
> I still feel you are holding on to the synthetic=sealant thing. As i said a synthetic wax can behave exactly like a natural wax, so why is it suddenly a sealant? 'Just because' isnt a good answer.
> 
> A sealant has to do something that a wax doesnt. FK1000P does, but its also a true wax, that makes it a hybrid because it also does things true sealants dont.


synthetic sealants behave different to natural waxes and look different. i have both FK and and DW and they feel different,look different and act different to each other. there is 1 thing wax and sealant both do and thats protect.
FK is not a true wax its synthetic and in the detailing world a true wax is natural and synthetic is sealant.


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## cheekymonkey

-PJB- said:


> Sorry, but the most :wall: thing I've read in a while.
> 
> What you're describing are arbitrary words and categories that have nothing to do with the physical properties things themselves. They'd be called a whole host of other things in other languages... and would happen to have the same properties whether we were around to name them or not.
> 
> There's a difference between knowing the name of something and knowing something.
> 
> OP, let us know how your new mixture of "car protection products of variable origins" gets on. :thumb:


he asked if carnuba wax was man made what would it be, it would be a sealant. what would you call it if it was man made?


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## ZTChris

cheekymonkey said:


> synthetic sealants behave different to natural waxes and look different. i have both FK and and DW and they feel different,look different and act different to each other. there is 1 thing wax and sealant both do and thats protect.
> FK is not a true wax its synthetic and in the detailing world a true wax is natural and synthetic is sealant.


How so? They both feel, look and act like partially set waxes (which they are), both cure in 10-20 mins, one is warmer one is colder, but as is said other natural waxes can look cold and glassy as well, just not Carnubra.

If the ONLY difference is that one is natural and one is synthetic then thats just plain stupid and misleading, especially since FK1000P IS a wax in the true chemical sense.


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## ZTChris

cheekymonkey said:


> he asked if carnuba wax was man made what would it be, it would be a sealant. what would you call it if it was man made?


I think you really need to think about it for a minute... Its origin doesn't change what it fundamentally is.


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## jenks

Now, now guys!

Back to the actual content of the original post, not the technical aspect.

Good work there, like the idea of adding to a favoured wax ( or sealant/hybrid/nano sealant) Oops, sorry couldnt help myself.

Nice to see how long term this holds up compared to straight 1000p

Dont forget to get some more pics up


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## McClane

cheekymonkey said:


> so what would it be if it was man made?


If we made it entirely accurately; the exact same collection of molecules as when _Copernicia prunifera_ makes it. With the same properties. Although, being a natural product it is subject to slight variation itself - and available in different grades dependent on the level of processing is done to it.

What would it be called...? Whatever some human wants to call it. It would still be a wax. :thumb:

If we think of sealants outside of detailing. Silicone sink sealant fits the bill - I'm not putting it on my car! "Sealant" used in detailing to distinguish some niche products from some others (technically all sealants) is a very narrow term only mutually recognised by a very small minority of people (us folk).

But, all products used to seal are "sealants". All waxes are waxes (man made, naturally derived, or fully synthetic) - and how we distinguish between the detailing "sealants and waxes" is really a matter of de facto recognition that is not entirely representative, but brings a particular stereotype to mind right?

But, if we're honest, it hardly carries any real weight in defining what they specifically are.


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## cheekymonkey

ZTChris said:


> How so? They both feel, look and act like partially set waxes (which they are), both cure in 10-20 mins, one is warmer one is colder, but as is said other natural waxes can look cold and glassy as well, just not Carnubra.
> 
> If the ONLY difference is that one is natural and one is synthetic then thats just plain stupid and misleading, especially since FK1000P IS a wax in the true chemical sense.


there are many differences between a wax and a sealant, they dont look the same or act the same. the curing time has nothing to do with it being natural or synthetic. like i have said FK is a sealant in detailing terms and as this is about detailing its a sealant.


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## ZTChris

jenks said:


> Now, now guys!
> 
> Back to the actual content of the original post, not the technical aspect.
> 
> Good work there, like the idea of adding to a favoured wax ( or sealant/hybrid/nano sealant) Oops, sorry couldnt help myself.
> 
> Nice to see how long term this holds up compared to straight 1000p
> 
> Dont forget to get some more pics up


Will do. Its just really hard to capture a shine on camera with silver that looks anything other than ordinary.

I imagine the body wrap additive will do nothing at all, it simply wont bond, but as there is already a layer of nanos down anyway im not worried.

Its just seems more glossy than pure 1000P, how much of that is due to the seal and shine and how much is due to the dodo im not sure, but it wasnt that shiny before i used my mix.

I would expect similar durability to pure 1000P if not more because the nanos are still there under the WAX (  ), they are just 'filled' with wax. I know the wolfs nanos can last 6 months +.


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## cheekymonkey

ZTChris said:


> I think you really need to think about it for a minute... Its origin doesn't change what it fundamentally is.


yes it does it changes from a natural product to man made


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## ZTChris

Ok another picture. Doesn't really show the effect very well.. as i said.. its silver (a colour i dont especially like myself much).


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## McClane

cheekymonkey said:


> yes it does it changes from a natural product to man made


I think the problem here is recognising that man made vs. natural is not a fundamental property of a material.

If a man made carnuba wax was put into the same recipe as a natural carnuba wax - and the carnuba waxes were identical (we'd copied nature), one would not be glassier and more sealant like, and the other would not be warmer, and more natural carnuba like. They would be exactly the same.

It just so happens that the natural product which we've learned to exploit produces a nice warm look when used in that way, and the man made ones that do exist generally do not. It makes sense to develop something from scratch which nature does not provide itself. Or it could be a coincidence that the synthetic products produce a different look.


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## cheekymonkey

-PJB- said:


> If we made it entirely accurately; the exact same collection of molecules as when _Copernicia prunifera_ makes it. With the same properties. Although, being a natural product it is subject to slight variation itself - and available in different grades dependent on the level of processing is done to it.
> 
> What would it be called...? Whatever some human wants to call it. It would still be a wax. :thumb:
> 
> *If we think of sealants outside of detailing.* Silicone sink sealant fits the bill - I'm not putting it on my car! "Sealant" used in detailing to distinguish some niche products from some others (technically all sealants) is a very narrow term only mutually recognised by a very small minority of people (us folk).
> 
> But, all products used to seal are "sealants". All waxes are waxes (man made, naturally derived, or fully synthetic) - and how we distinguish between the detailing "sealants and waxes" is really a matter of de facto recognition that is not entirely representative, but brings a particular stereotype to mind right?
> 
> But, if we're honest, it hardly carries any real weight in defining what they specifically are.


thats my point were not talking about products out side of detailing were talking about products inside detailing and synthetic are know as sealants
carnuba is a nutural product anything man made is synthetic not natural so in 
detailing if it was man made it would be a sealant becouse its man made. like you get sheepskin mitts and synthetic ones. the synthetic are not real sheep skin.


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## ZTChris

cheekymonkey said:


> yes it does it changes from a natural product to man made


No it doesnt. For example Water made in a lab isnt 'synthetic'. Its still a natural product. Its existence in nature is the key. If it doesn't exist in nature its synthetic, if it does whatever its origin, its natural. Thats a basic scientific principal. Its still natural its just artificially derived.


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## cheekymonkey

ZTChris said:


> No it doesnt. For example Water made in a lab isnt 'synthetic'. Its still a natural product. Its existence in nature is the key. If it doesn't exist in nature its synthetic, if it does whatever its origin, its natural. Thats a basic scientific principal. Its still natural its just artificially derived.


 artificially derived theres a clue in there mainly artificial = not natural


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## ZTChris

Scientifically your wrong. I know, im a chemist (and a biologist).

Sorry but if the manufacturers are enabling this silly naming convention, and they are professional scientists, they need their degrees and doctorates revoking, and a good slap! :lol: Id like to think its marketing teams doing it, and they usually know little about anything lets face it.


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## McClane

cheekymonkey said:


> thats my point were not talking about products out side of detailing were talking about products inside detailing and synthetic are know as sealants
> carnuba is a nutural product anything man made is synthetic not natural so in
> detailing if it was man made it would be a sealant becouse its man made. like you get sheepskin mitts and synthetic ones. the synthetic are not real sheep skin.


How the products are marketed, categorised and sold in detailing might be that simple. It is a far more flawed basis than the real world rules with which they are developed and manufactured. The refusal of those wider considerations greatly limits the input you can have a realistic discussion about the chemistry of making a wax. Which this is.


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## cheekymonkey

ZTChris said:


> Scientifically your wrong. I know, im a chemist (and a biologist).
> 
> Sorry but if the manufacturers are enabling this silly naming convention, and they are professional scientists, they need their degrees and doctorates revoking, and a good slap! :lol: Id like to think its marketing teams doing it, and they usually know little about anything lets face it.


yea its what there good at they tell you one thing then give it away with the name, but it keeps them out of trouble.


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## cheekymonkey

-PJB- said:


> How the products are marketed, categorised and sold in detailing might be that simple. It is a far more flawed basis than the real world rules with which they are developed and manufactured. The refusal of those wider considerations greatly limits the input you can have a realistic discussion about the chemistry of making a wax. Which this is.


i'm not on about manufacturing i'm on about as a end user. in detailing a synthetic is know as a sealant. what goes on in the rest of the world doesn't matter or come into it, not when its purely about detailing as this is.


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## ZTChris

If anything i think they are confusing the issue. FK1000P is clearly a wax because it is chemically a wax. Its looks, smells, behaves and works like a wax. Calling it a sealant is dumb. In fairness though FK call it a wax, others are wrongly calling it a sealant. Id be willing to bet that if you showed it to 100 random people and asked them what it was 90+ would say its a car wax.

Techwax is more like a sealant and is a polish, but they call it techWAX.. Its just


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## cheekymonkey

they call it a synthetic wax synthetic = sealant in detailing and as i,ve said this is detailing not chemistry or anything else. it behaves, works and looks like a sealant
to be totally right NXT is a mild all in one not a sealant but thats just more sh*t


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## McClane

cheekymonkey said:


> *i'm not on about manufacturing* i'm on about as a end user. in detailing a synthetic is know as a sealant. what goes on in the rest of the world doesn't matter or come into it, not when its purely about detailing as this is.


You have a knack of picking up on 10% of a post and using it to "prove" your point.

I've done it now too. See, that bit in bold :thumb:

The whole point of this thread is that the OP made a mixed wax/sealant (whatever). I'd call that 100% "*manufacturing*" - which is why we are talking about it! And is entirely why we're talking about all the things you don't appear to have any interest in, (so apparently have no bearing on the rest of the World's consideration of truth).

Cheekymonkey is right :devil: :lol:


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## ZTChris

As i said a few pages back though cheekymonkey, not everyone agrees in the detailing world that synthetic = sealant.


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## cheekymonkey

ZTChris said:


> As i said a few pages back though cheekymonkey, not everyone agrees in the detailing world that synthetic = sealant.


like who?


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## Dodo Factory

I'd laugh at this thread, but some people look to this forum for reference. Sad, really.


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## cheekymonkey

-PJB- said:


> You have a knack of picking up on 10% of a post and using it to "prove" your point.
> 
> I've done it now too. See, that bit in bold :thumb:
> 
> The whole point of this thread is that the OP made a mixed wax/sealant (whatever). I'd call that 100% "*manufacturing*" - which is why we are talking about it! And is entirely why we're talking about all the things don't appear to have any interest in.
> 
> Cheekymonkey is right :devil: :lol:


taking 2 products and mixing them isn't manufacturing, many do that all the time like vinilla moose and red moose together but not of us say weve manufactured a new product :thumb::lol:


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## ZTChris

Pretty much all of them. Most 'waxes' contain synthetic ingredients now. That must mean they are hybrids, but no, they call them waxes. 

Chemical Guys - Butter Wet Wax.. its a hybrid..

Finish kare call 1000P a wax. THEY call it a wax i dont care what their distributors or resellers call it.


Meguiars TechWAX (not a wax by detailing standards)

there are hundreds of examples.


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## cheekymonkey

Dodo Factory said:


> I'd laugh at this thread, but some people look to this forum for reference. Sad, really.


 ok???


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## ZTChris

Ben Gum said:


> That assumes that the people selling the products are the ones who know what is in in them! When you read about nano 'monkeys' etc. then you have to realise that those doing the selling are prone to marketing simplifications!!


Exactly. Body Wrap.. Now there is a sealant.


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## McClane

cheekymonkey said:


> taking 2 products and mixing them isn't manufacturing, many do that all the time like vinilla moose and red moose together but not of us say weve manufactured a new product :thumb::lol:


Well, I'm off to "manufacture" a Gin and Tonic....

:tumbleweed:


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## ZTChris

cheekymonkey said:


> taking 2 products and mixing them isn't manufacturing, many do that all the time like vinilla moose and red moose together but not of us say weve manufactured a new product :thumb::lol:


Technically it is, but id never claim that i did. Most things are an assembly of other people stuff. Hardly anything in an Apple product is of Apple origin for example, even the OS is a modification of someone elses invention.


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## ZTChris

Anyway...

My bedroom now smells like a mixture of white spirit and coconuts. Not sure i like it to be honest.. 

I need to find a lid to cover this wax mix..


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## cheekymonkey

ZTChris said:


> Pretty much all of them. Most 'waxes' contain synthetic ingredients now. That must mean they are hybrids, but no, they call them waxes.
> 
> Chemical Guys - Butter Wet Wax.. its a hybrid..
> 
> Finish kare call 1000P a wax. THEY call it a wax i dont care what their distributors or resellers call it.
> 
> Meguiars TechWAX (not a wax by detailing standards)
> 
> there are hundreds of examples.


your contradicting your self now techwax isn't a wax because its synthetic but fk1000p is a wax even though it is also synthetic. there ether both waxes or both not waxes
if you want to use a sealant as a wax then you go ahead but alot of the resellers have been detailing for years so they know a sealant when they use one, and that about alot of waxes being hybrids your right i mentioned that a couple of pages ago.


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## McClane

Dodo Factory said:


> I'd laugh at this thread, but some people look to this forum for reference. Sad, really.


Well, would you like to add some reference worthy material?  :wave:

What's a sadder reflection, a little innocent ignorance or well informed scorn?


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## ZTChris

Im not contradicting myself because FK1000P IS A WAX. Natural or synthetic is irrelevant, as ive been saying for 7 pages!!

Here is the clue..










Here is the proof:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wax

Forget about the marketing, whatever anyone says a wax CAN be synthetic. If they claim otherwise they are simply wrong, end of story.


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## -Kev-

**** me! ive only read two pages and ive already got brain-ache :lol:

yes, i'm known for being quite blunt and to the point lol


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## cheekymonkey

yea it says wax on the techwax and as you said its not a wax? dont make sence one a wax one not 

and thanks for the link but as i said were talking detailing and a synthetic wax is know as a sealant. if you want to call it a wax thats up to you.


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## cheekymonkey

-Kev- said:


> **** me! ive only read two pages and ive already got brain-ache :lol:


dont worry Kev theres only 6 more to go:thumb:


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## -Kev-

don't think i'll manage it tonight :lol:


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## cheekymonkey

-Kev- said:


> don't think i'll manage it tonight :lol:


2 pages a night for 4/5 nights gives you something to look forward to


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## kendo89

The argument in this thread is complete tosh.

Thread close anyone?


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## -Kev-

cheekymonkey said:


> 2 pages a night for 4/5 nights gives you something to look forward to


work isn't _that_ bad :lol:


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## ZTChris

cheekymonkey said:


> yea it says wax on the techwax and as you said its not a wax? dont make sence one a wax one not
> 
> and thanks for the link but as i said were talking detailing and a synthetic wax is know as a sealant. if you want to call it a wax thats up to you.


It does makes sense. Because techwax isnt a wax. I may contain a little natural wax i dont know, but its mostly nano scale polymers, so is a synthetic (so not a wax by your standards) and isnt a true wax (so not one by my standards) so its saying wax when it isnt. Its breaking the rules.

You claim this rule is universal, when its not as i just proved. A manufacturer can call it what they like (as long as its legal to), but it doesnt make it so in reality.


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## -Kev-

kendo89 said:


> The argument in this thread is complete tosh.
> 
> Thread close anyone?


although ive not read through the whole thread, i'm going to say (at the mo), that it should remain open. threads like these always get a wee bit 'out of hand' to an extent but they are usually based on good debate topics and opinions


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## cheekymonkey

ZTChris said:


> It does makes sense. Because techwax isnt a wax. I may contain a little natural wax i dont know, but its mostly nano scale polymers, so is a synthetic (so not a wax by your standards) and isnt a true wax (so not one by my standards) so its saying wax when it isnt. Its breaking the rules.
> 
> You claim this rule is universal, when its not as i just proved. A manufacturer can call it what they like (as long as its legal to), but it doesnt make it so in reality.


fk1000p is synthetic but your saying that manufacturer can call it a wax if they want to, but meguiras cant call NXT a wax because its synthetic what is the diffrence


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## Guest

Mr wikipedia said:


> Wax
> Wax refers to a class of chemical compounds that are plastic (malleable) near ambient temperatures. Characteristically, they melt above 45 °C (113 °F) to give a low viscosity liquid. Waxes are insoluble in water but soluble in organic, nonpolar solvents. All waxes are organic compounds, both synthetic and naturally occurring.


mr wikipedia always has something to say on the matter


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## cheekymonkey

-Kev- said:


> although ive not read through the whole thread, i'm going to say (at the mo), that it should remain open. threads like these always get a wee bit 'out of hand' to an extent but they are usually based on good debate topics and opinions


thanks Kev a personally haven't got a problem with zt its 2 different sides to a product


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## ZTChris

cheekymonkey said:


> fk1000p is synthetic but your saying that manufacturer can call it a wax if they want to, but meguiras cant call NXT a wax because its synthetic what is the diffrence


Because FK1000P *IS CHEMICALLY A WAX*, but Techwax is not. Not shouting, just bold for emphasis.


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## cheekymonkey

capri kid said:


> mr wikipedia always has something to say on the matter


but like i keep saying in the detailing world they are classed different wax = natural, synthetic = sealant.


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## ZTChris

cheekymonkey said:


> but like i keep saying in the detailing world they are classed different wax = natural, synthetic = sealant.


Not always..

Why do i feel like ive said that before?

Id like to see the memo that went out to make that so.


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## cheekymonkey

ZTChris said:


> Because FK1000P *IS CHEMICALLY A WAX*, but Techwax is not. Not shouting, just bold for emphasis.


how? whats the diffrence what makes fk synthetics a wax but NXT's snthetics not.


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## ZTChris

cheekymonkey said:


> how? whats the diffrence what makes fk synthetics a wax but NXT's snthetics not.


see the wiki quote above... thats why.

FK1000P has the properties of a wax. Nano scale polymers generally dont they work more like resins or epoxy than waxes.


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## cheekymonkey

ZTChris said:


> Not always..
> 
> Why do i feel like ive said that before?
> 
> Id like to see the memo that went out to make that so.


not always? explain i did ask before but you never answered


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## cheekymonkey

ZTChris said:


> see the wiki quote above... thats why.
> 
> FK1000P has the properties of a wax. Nano scale polymers generally dont they work more like resins than waxes.


but what are the properties fk has that NXT doesn't


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## ZTChris

As i said they, th manufacturers break the rules, techwax isnt a wax, etc..

So it a rule no one follows all the time. 

Body wrap, C-quartz, Opti-coat, they are sealants. FK1000P has nothing in common with these.


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## ZTChris

cheekymonkey said:


> but what are the properties fk has that NXT doesn't


Do they look alike? 
For a start if you chill NXT down it wont 'wax', you know like candle wax setting, it will just freeze more like water, or icecream actually.

Secondly its an emulsion, mixed with water and a detergent. FK has no water in it, its a solution of synthetic wax in a carrier oil.

I get that the naming is mixed up and you are right in that it what they call these things, but i am saying they are wrong to do so. Its messed up marketing that's all. Its a VERY bad way to try to distinguish the modern synthetic products from the traditional waxes. Its fine for the body Wrap products, but totally wrong for 1000P.

Its no wonder most people never wax/polish their cars, the products are so confusing and wrongly labelled!


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## cheekymonkey

ZTChris said:


> As i said they, th manufacturers break the rules, techwax isnt a wax, etc..
> 
> So it a rule no one follows all the time.
> 
> Body wrap, C-quartz, Opti-coat, they are sealants. FK1000P has nothing in common with these.


but what is the diffrence between FK and other sealants becouse with sealants i've use there is a lot in common so what makes it diffrent? thants what i want to know?. the 3 youve mentioned are not run of the mill sealants may be thats where the diffrences are


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## cheekymonkey

ZTChris said:


> Do they look alike?
> For a start if you chill NXT down it wont 'wax', you know like candle wax setting, it will just freeze more like water, or icecream actually.
> 
> Secondly its an emulsion, mixed with water and a detergent. FK has no water in it, its a solution of synthetic wax in a carrier oil.[/QUOTE
> 
> i have waxes that contain water but there still a wax because they have natural waxes in them. but i still dont see the diffrence between FK's synthetic and other companys synthetics apart from they call it a synthetic wax.


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## ZTChris

How many other sealants look like wax? FK1000P looks like a pot of wax!

Most others that ive seen are more liquid and are usually emulsions or heavily diluted or contain liquid resins that chemically harden like epoxy.

It basically says everything that FK will melt into a natural wax product. 

Ill try melting techwax into some FK tomorrow, i doubt it will go well.


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## ZTChris

cheekymonkey said:


> ZTChris said:
> 
> 
> 
> Do they look alike?
> For a start if you chill NXT down it wont 'wax', you know like candle wax setting, it will just freeze more like water, or icecream actually.
> 
> Secondly its an emulsion, mixed with water and a detergent. FK has no water in it, its a solution of synthetic wax in a carrier oil.[/QUOTE
> 
> i have waxes that contain water but there still a wax because they have natural waxes in them. but i still dont see the diffrence between FK's synthetic and other companys synthetics apart from they call it a synthetic wax.
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, but again.. are they really waxes?? They are solutions of wax mixed with water and detergents and other things, usually resins. They arent really waxes in my view, they just contain some wax.
Click to expand...


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## cheekymonkey

ZTChris said:


> How many other sealants look like wax? FK1000P looks like a pot of wax!
> 
> Most others that ive seen are more liquid and are usually emulsions or heavily diluted or contain liquid resins that chemically harden like epoxy.
> 
> It basically says everything that FK will melt into a natural wax product.
> 
> Ill try melting techwax into some FK tomorrow, i doubt it will go well.


fk1000p looks nothing like a wax its to glassy no wax i have used look that glassy none
techwax comes in a pot like wax


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## cheekymonkey

ZTChris said:


> cheekymonkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, but again.. are they really waxes?? They are solutions of wax mixed with water and detergents and other things, usually resins. They arent really waxes in my view, they just contain some wax.
> 
> 
> 
> so something that contains wax isn't a wax but some thing that is fully synthetic is a wax.
Click to expand...


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## ZTChris

cheekymonkey said:


> fk1000p looks nothing like a wax its to glassy no wax i have used look that glassy none
> techwax comes in a pot like wax


Im not talking about the final look im talking about the product itself.

Techwax can come in a pot yes, but actually its not the same stuff as the techwax in a bottle..

This: 
http://www.opieoils.co.uk/p-59416-meguiars-nxt-tech-wax-20.aspx


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## cheekymonkey

ZTChris said:


> Im not talking about the final look im talking about the product itself.
> 
> Techwax can come in a pot yes, but actually its not the same stuff as the techwax in a bottle..
> 
> This:
> http://www.opieoils.co.uk/p-59416-meguiars-nxt-tech-wax-20.aspx


hang on instead of doing like for like and use both paste you want to put up a paste against a liquid not really fair is that. but at the end there both synthetic.


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## ZTChris

cheekymonkey said:


> ZTChris said:
> 
> 
> 
> so something that contains wax isn't a wax but some thing that is fully synthetic is a wax.
> 
> 
> 
> 1 or 2% wax in the mix doesn't make it 'a wax' many polishes have that much wax in. The wax is just one ingredient in those products. FK and natural paste waxes are, what.. 30-40% wax? The wax is the key ingredient.
Click to expand...


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## ZTChris

cheekymonkey said:


> hang on instead of doing like for like and use both paste you want to put up a paste against a liquid not really fair is that. but at the end there both synthetic.


I dont know whats in techwax Paste, its possibly a synthetic wax, or a mixture. Ive always been talking about the liquid Techwax.


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## cheekymonkey

ZTChris said:


> cheekymonkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> 1 or 2% wax in the mix doesn't make it 'a wax' many polishes have that much wax in. The wax is just one ingredient in those products. FK and natural paste waxes are, what.. 30-40% wax? The wax is the key ingredient.
> 
> 
> 
> these are paste waxes and contain a lot of natural wax and sealants
Click to expand...


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## ZTChris

cheekymonkey said:


> ZTChris said:
> 
> 
> 
> these are paste waxes and contain a lot of natural wax and sealants
> 
> 
> 
> At the end of the day, a wax in its pure form is as wiki described. If it does that its a wax, if it doesnt it isnt. If the primary ingredient in a sealant acts that way its a wax, thats all there is too it.
> 
> You know how wax sets yes? It goes crumbly as it sets and it crystallizes in a certain way. Water doesnt do that, so its not a wax. Many sealants active ingredients dont do that either. Many are more like epoxy that just get stiffer and chemically set.
> 
> Whats even worse is that wax doesnt actually 'cure' at all, but everyone says it does. There is no curing, which is a chemical change, it just loses its solvent and goes hard.
Click to expand...


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## cheekymonkey

ZTChris said:


> cheekymonkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> At the end of the day, a wax in its pure form is as wiki described. If it does that its a wax, if it doesnt it isnt. If the primary ingredient in a sealant acts that way its a wax, thats all there is too it.
> 
> You know how wax sets yes? It goes crumbly as it sets and it crystallizes in a certain way. Water doesnt do that, so its not a wax. Many sealants active ingredients dont do that either. Many are more like epoxy that just get stiffer and chemically set.
> 
> Whats even worse is that wax doesnt actually 'cure' at all, but everyone says it does. There is no curing, which is a chemical change, it just loses its solvent and goes hard.
> 
> 
> 
> as i keep saying not in detailing if its synthetic then its a sealant simple, what you want to call it every where else is up to you.
> just think a newby comes on here they wont have a clue what to use with what, infact a lot get confused now with there being wax and sealant .
> as for curing as you say it only cures if there is a chemical change, and with the loss of the solvents there is a chemical change.
Click to expand...


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## ZTChris

Not in the real world of chemistry!!

Oh well im going to have to leave it here as nothing i say will change anything. Its all wrong and the marketing has messed up the terminology to such a degree that no one knows whats happening least of all the manufacturers it seems..


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## cheekymonkey

ZTChris said:


> Not in the real world of chemistry!!
> 
> Oh well im going to have to leave it here as nothing i say will change anything. Its all wrong and the marketing has messed up the terminology to such a degree that no one knows whats happening least of all the manufacturers it seems..


ok mate


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## jenks

Amen!


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## ford nut

:thumb:


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## McClane

Ben Gum said:


> I got bored reading the details nearly 8 pages ago so apologies if I have missed it but I don't recall once seeing any discussion of the rather critical 'carbon versus silicon' chemistry. Not really sure how anyone can have 11 pages of sealant vs wax discussion and not have some meaningful thought on it... seems a bit like comparing ice-cream and sorbet and never once discussing water vs milk! Anyhow... I have had one BSOD reading this thread already so I must tend to that now that I have finished laughing.


I think the problem is mate that it didn't get past the first hurdle to allow anything meaningful. And the endless repetition doesn't help that. I'd have quite happily been educated on some of the more informative and finer points of it (I don't claim to know much - *at all!*). But the "discussion" was a non starter really and didn't get as far as useful information on ingredients and their properties. More a philosophical ball ache of actually looking at something past whether is "man made or natural".

:wall:

Sorry to the OP that your little test thread went this way. At least we didn't get your thread closed  - although maybe 50% of the posts are yours :lol:. I'd be quite happy for it to stripped back to about post #7.

Is there an existing useful thread, or could one be started. A sensible and informative "wax and sealants - differences" one?

Dodo, also - sorry for being short in reply. I'd hope you might have something useful and* ********** *to add - rather than detract further. Although it's probably understandable after page upon page you feel "what's the point!".

BSOD? I guess your computer made the decision for you Ben!? I considered setting fire to my laptop at one point just so I didn't have to read anymore. :lol:

On a plus note. OP, your post count now seems high enough now to allow entry to a certian area. Was that your goal all along? :thumb:


----------

