# Buying a car on Vcar.. A legal question not a car one.



## ChuckH (Nov 23, 2006)

One year ago I bought a 1500 quid car for my daughter.. The seller wrote clearly on the receipt that then car was HPI clear.. We had to buy a car in a hurry as her old car had been written off so we went to look at several and could not HPI all of them as it was just impractical on the day.. 

The car if I'm honest has been a bad un since day one and in the time we have spent nearly £1500 on it.. The joys of buying a used car I suppose and I can live with that .. Mmmm 

After a bit of advice and input here we bought a nice lateish 207CC to replace the car with.. When I came to put the old car on Autotrader it flagged up as a CatD.. Bugger.. 

This morning I did a full HPI check and of course the car is on Vcar as a catD loss in 2011. 

Now the receipt I had of the seller (Private sale) states absolutely clearly that the car was /is HPI clear when of course it was not..

So how do I stand ?

Cheers


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## djgregory (Apr 2, 2013)

Speak to the seller and see what they have to say.


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## ChuckH (Nov 23, 2006)

Thanks I have already written a comprehensive letter stating that as far as I'm concerned they are in clear breach of contract having stated in writing that the car is HPI clear . 
But I thought it a good idea to ask here as we have a good cross section of knowledgeable people with often good info and ideas .. Not to mention experience of course !


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## djgregory (Apr 2, 2013)

Maybe try a free 30 minute slot with a legal firm if that's the route you eventually go down. They will give you a rough idea of what chance you have of winning or getting something out of it.


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

Not a good scenario. 

Are you sure that the previous owner even knew? Some people also think HPI only means free of finance. 

I wouldn't buy an expensive car that had previously been a write off, but if we are talking £1500, I would. 

The damage to write off a car worth a few thousand could really be minimal. 

Have you any idea why the car was written off? No obvious damage?


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## Nanoman (Jan 17, 2009)

You should check when it was listed on the Database as a Cat D.

If the Cat D happened in 2011 but it was only listed on the database in June 2014 the seller has done nothing wrong. Also, the seller could argue that it was HPI clear when they bought it and that's why they wrote it on the receipt (this could easily have been the case).

The seller could be just as much a victim in this as you are. The seller could be a chancer that knew they were lying. 

If it was me I'd check the facts/dates and try and if it looks like you were deliberately shafted I'd try and get something out of the seller but realistically you probably aren't out of pocket much on a £1500 car so will it be worth the hassle.


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## ChuckH (Nov 23, 2006)

Nanoman said:


> You should check when it was listed on the Database as a Cat D.
> 
> If the Cat D happened in 2011 but it was only listed on the database in June 2014 the seller has done nothing wrong. Also, the seller could argue that it was HPI clear when they bought it and that's why they wrote it on the receipt (this could easily have been the case).
> 
> ...


Right the vehicle was recorded on the data base on 26/8/2011
there was a check on the vehicle on the 27/05/ 2012
The person we bought the car off acquired the vehicle on the 29/05/2012

So it looks like the person we bought the car off would have known..

Now I do realise I should have done an HPI check myself but it actually an offence to sell a vehicle on the register without declaring it it is perhaps a bit foolish to buy one but no offence.

The seller wrote the receipt and I asked that they added that it was HPI clear as I had no chance to HPI the car at the time. We were in the bowels of Gloucester and there was not enough phone signal to even do a phone check.

You know I think the seller did know and my request to have it written down that the car was HPI clear should have given them the opportunity to speak up.

I may not even bother to follow this up but I do believe the law is on my side and all I have to do is take them to small claims if I do decide to do so..

We actually have spent well over the purchase price on repairs to this car which as I said above is the pitfall of buying second hand cars but hands up those who can afford to shell out thousands of pounds at the drop of a hat on a car we were not expecting to buy.

I also appreciate some may think HPI is only to check on finance but lets be realistic there are enough adverts on the telly and so saying the risks of buying a used car without having one done.. Besides the seller was pretty articulate and not daft in the least..

I may have been foolish to buy without an HPI and I hold my hands up to that but I wasn't daft enough not to get something in writing.. :thumb::thumb:


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## danwel (Feb 18, 2007)

To be honest we could all stand here and say that you should have done a HPI check but i think in all honesty i wouldn't have bothered due to the low costs and would have bought it on how it looked on the day.

That doesn't stop you being pi55ed off as the seller has clearly done a number on you. Not sure what your course of action is in all honesty and whether or not it will be even worth the costs.

If the repairs you have had to do are as a result of it being classed as a Cat D then that might sway you eithe way but the repaid was in 2011 so your costs may well be the joys of owing a car in that price bracket unfotunately


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## ChuckH (Nov 23, 2006)

danwel said:


> To be honest we could all stand here and say that you should have done a HPI check but i think in all honesty i wouldn't have bothered due to the low costs and would have bought it on how it looked on the day.
> 
> That doesn't stop you being pi55ed off as the seller has clearly done a number on you. Not sure what your course of action is in all honesty and whether or not it will be even worth the costs.
> 
> If the repairs you have had to do are as a result of it being classed as a Cat D then that might sway you eithe way but the repaid was in 2011 so your costs may well be the joys of owing a car in that price bracket unfotunately


None of the repairs we did are in any way related to the accident damage the vehicle suffered.. I could list them but they are irrelevant.

What happened was when I went to list the car on Autotrader there is a box where you have to put the registration number.. So I filled it in and up pops the word CatD.. So it is not possible now to list a car that is on the register on Autotrader...

I now will declare the car as being Cat D. I have no choice as it is after all an offence to sell it without declaration and I wouldn't anyway..

I think the point being missed here is that NO way would I have bought the car if the CatD had been declared ! Never in a million years. Thats the bit that annoys the most !


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## brettblade (Jul 23, 2012)

The car was sold as HPI clear and priced as such, the seller committed fraud.


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## Ravinder (Jul 24, 2009)

Is there a time frame as to when you could still pursue the seller? You said it's been a year since you bought the car. I'm not too sure where you would stand on that? It's a shame what's happened. I hate the feeling of being screwed over by someone.


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## lofty (Jun 19, 2007)

It's annoying that he has more than likely knowingly misled you, but to be honest for the amount you paid for the car I'd probably just forget about it.The rule of thumb seems to be that a CAT D is worth around 25% less than a 'normal' car so you are looking at maybe getting £300 back, if he did know about its history then he's obviously dishonest and very unlike to play ball, so you'd probably end up having to go to court.I know dealers have to declare if the car if its a write off but I don't think that applies to private sellers, obviously you have it writing that its HPI clear but as other have said he could just say he thought that only meant that it's not on finance, I think it would be hard to prove and not worth the hassle for a few hundred pound.What's goes around comes around, he'll get his comeuppance one day.


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## cheekymonkey (Mar 15, 2008)

dont think you can do anything as it was a private sale, but if you could you would have to prove he knew it was on the register.


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## ChuckH (Nov 23, 2006)

cheekymonkey said:


> dont think you can do anything as it was a private sale, but if you could you would have to prove he knew it was on the register.


Sorry this is incorrect..

I have spoken with a solicitor this afternoon and the seller is completely in the wrong.. Seller made a declaration on that receipt saying that the car was HPI clear and the solicitor says that in order to make a declaration of any kind one must be in possession of all the facts. Not being in possession or pleading ignorance is no defense.

Solicitor says proving an offence would be hard but as the seller has declared the car was HPI clear it renders them liable to litigation so that is exactly what will happen.

A letter will be sent out today offering the seller the option of buying the car back or covering the difference between a car not on the register and one that is on the register.. We will have sent with the letter two independent valuations. 1 Is for a car not on and the other for one that is on the register. If the seller chooses to ignore litigation will follow.

People should not be allowed to pull tricks like this...:thumb:


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## MDC250 (Jan 4, 2014)

ChuckH said:


> Sorry this is incorrect..
> 
> I have spoken with a solicitor this afternoon and the seller is completely in the wrong.. Seller made a declaration on that receipt saying that the car was HPI clear and the solicitor says that in order to make a declaration of any kind one must be in possession of all the facts. Not being in possession or pleading ignorance is no defense.
> 
> ...


Good for you, I hope you get a result here. My only concern is anybody who is dodgy enough to sell a car without declaring a Cat D may well not respond to the claim, ensuing litigation or judgment. A Pyrrhic victory may only serve to compound how annoying a situation this has been...

I hope I'm wrong and you get recompense. Good luck and let us know how you get on please.


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## Nanoman (Jan 17, 2009)

Good on you. I'm pursuing someone over £500 just now as a matter of principle. Different circumstances but I don't like being shafted just like you!


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## danwel (Feb 18, 2007)

Fair play, i really hope you get a result that suits you and that bar steward doesn't get away with it


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## m1pui (Jul 24, 2009)

Fingers crossed for you!

Is there a date when the marker was applied to the car?

Wondering whether it under his ownership at the time and he's tried to pull a fast one or has he, will probably say, just taken the previous owners word for it and never actually HPI'd it himself.


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## ChuckH (Nov 23, 2006)

m1pui said:


> Fingers crossed for you!
> 
> Is there a date when the marker was applied to the car?
> 
> Wondering whether it under his ownership at the time and he's tried to pull a fast one or has he, will probably say, just taken the previous owners word for it and never actually HPI'd it himself.


Mate all the dates are above.. Take a look and you will see why I'm so annoyed ..


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## cheekymonkey (Mar 15, 2008)

ChuckH said:


> Mate all the dates are above.. Take a look and you will see why I'm so annoyed ..


but just because he bought the car doesn't prove he was the one who hpi'd it 2 days before, unless he admits it was him or you can prove it was him then it will be hard to take it further.


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## MagpieRH (May 27, 2014)

Dealers only have to declare outstanding finance - HPI clear only make clear of finance. You are not obliged to tell the buyer of a Cat C or D.


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## MDC250 (Jan 4, 2014)

Misrepresentation if seller declared and put in writing it was clear?


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## ChuckH (Nov 23, 2006)

cheekymonkey said:


> but just because he bought the car doesn't prove he was the one who hpi'd it 2 days before, unless he admits it was him or you can prove it was him then it will be hard to take it further.


But he was the one who stated absolutely clearly the car was HPI clear. In doing so he has made a false statement knowingly or not. Ignorance as they say is no defence.. Why on earth would anyone make such a statement if they did not know or did know and lied ??

Of course I don't know who HPId the car I was just giving the information I was asked above..

Either way the solicitor says the sellers position is indefensible and it's likely his information in the form of a signed declaration was to inflate the price of the as if he had declared it Vcar it would have been worth considerably less or the fact is I would not have bought it.

In short his declaration has landed him liable to litigation and litigation will follow if he doesn't respond to the letter he will get in the morning..

I refuse to be turned over on the point of principle ..


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## ChuckH (Nov 23, 2006)

MDC250 said:


> Misrepresentation if seller declared and put in writing it was clear?


That is exactly the point. If one doe sent know don't sign simple as.

Of course I can't be absolutely certain matey did know the actual status of the car but what I do now know is he has made a huge mistake in declaring he did,,

Lesson to us all guys.. Even those like me long in the tooth and should know better ... NEVER BUY A CAR WITHOUT AN HPI CHECK.


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## ChuckH (Nov 23, 2006)

MagpieRH said:


> Dealers only have to declare outstanding finance - HPI clear only make clear of finance. You are not obliged to tell the buyer of a Cat C or D.


Sorry that is completely wrong...


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## cheekymonkey (Mar 15, 2008)

MDC250 said:


> Misrepresentation if seller declared and put in writing it was clear?


but it was a private sale total different :thumb:


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## MDC250 (Jan 4, 2014)

I'm totally with you. I think you have a decent shout in taking legal action but as per my previous post our "friend" may never pay should you obtain judgment. 

Pursuing a small claim if you haven't already is fairly straightforward and geared for disputes just like this. 

That said if you have a legal expenses policy tagged onto any insurance you have (usually home insurance) you may have cover to pursue a claim and for somebody to do the legwork for you.


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## Nanoman (Jan 17, 2009)

cheekymonkey said:


> but it was a private sale total different :thumb:


Sorry but you're talking nonsense throughout this thread.


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## MDC250 (Jan 4, 2014)

cheekymonkey said:


> but it was a private sale total different :thumb:


Misrepresentation Act 1967 extends to private sales, no?


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## Cookies (Dec 10, 2008)

Chuck,

Based on the information you have regarding the HPI check, the conversation you had with your solicitor and the fact that the guy who sold you the car should definitely not get away with this; go after him. 

I'd be of the mind that if it costs me £300 to get £300 back from him, then I'd do it. Point of principle.

Cooks


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## cheekymonkey (Mar 15, 2008)

Nanoman said:


> Sorry but you're talking nonsense throughout this thread.


lets hope your right :thumb:


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## cheekymonkey (Mar 15, 2008)

MDC250 said:


> Misrepresentation Act 1967 extends to private sales, no?


again it still needs to be proven he knew different to what he said, Dont get me wrong i hope Chuck gets some money back but it wont be as easy as it is being made to be.


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## MDC250 (Jan 4, 2014)

Kind of reverses burden though doesn't it if seller puts in writing it's clear...? 

Main basis of claim would presumably be Sale of Goods in any event and section relating to description?

Either way sounds like Chuck has decided to make a stand and good luck to him.

Appreciate you are not writing a successful claim off, this is all healthy discussion and getting different views


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## MagpieRH (May 27, 2014)

ChuckH said:


> Sorry that is completely wrong...


Maybe I didn't word that probably - those stickers you see on dealer forecourt cars that say 'HPI clear' may only refer to finance. If you do your own HPI check, which many people won't at this point because the sticker says it's clean, you may find accident history.

The point about cat C or D is I'm told they don't have to declare that, though if you ask them outright then they'd have to tell you the truth.

I don't know if this applies to a private sale, I can't see why the rules would be more stringent for that though.

That's not to say I don't feel for OP having been sold a car they thought had a clear history but didn't, my point is although you rightly feel aggrieved I'm not sure there's a lot you can do about it now.


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## ChuckH (Nov 23, 2006)

It is an offence to sell a vehicle that is on the register without declaring it.. It matters not if it's finance stolen recovered scrapped or on finance it has to be declared or the seller is breaking the law.. 
The same principles apply to private sellers as well as garages or traders.. 

Stating a car is HPI clear when it is not is at best pretty silly . It also takes away the right to plead ignorance which is NO defence anyway.. 

If I win a judgement and the seller refuses to pay up the matter would simply get put into the hands of recovery agents.. The days of walking away and not paying are long gone..


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## craigeh123 (Dec 26, 2011)

Good luck with it


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## Nanoman (Jan 17, 2009)

cheekymonkey said:


> again it still needs to be proven he knew different to what he said, Dont get me wrong i hope Chuck gets some money back but it wont be as easy as it is being made to be.


More nonsense. He doesn't have to prove the guy knew. He just has to prove what the guy said wasn't true. If it was on the register prior to the guy stating it was HPI clear then he's committed fraud. Plain and simple. Whether it was deliberate or not is not Chuck's problem. And whether this is a private or trade sale the law is the same.


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## ChuckH (Nov 23, 2006)

Nanoman said:


> More nonsense. He doesn't have to prove the guy knew. He just has to prove what the guy said wasn't true. If it was on the register prior to the guy stating it was HPI clear then he's committed fraud. Plain and simple. Whether it was deliberate or not is not Chuck's problem. And whether this is a private or trade sale the law is the same.


Absolutely correct. The Guy made a clear statement so its down to him whether he knew or not. Solicitor was absolutely positive on that note. If you don't know don't make a statement surely ?

Incidentally it was mateys partners car and both of them signed right underneath where it states the car is HPI clear.


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## SteveTDCi (Feb 8, 2006)

If the seller stated and put it in writing the car was hpi clear then he doesn't have a leg to stand on. If the seller had been asked is the car hpi clear and he replied I don't know I've never checked then he would have been in the clear. From my understanding you only have to answer the question if asked.


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## ChuckH (Nov 23, 2006)

Steve I think your right. It may be that a seller does not have to volunteer the information but as the law stands the same rules apply to both private and trade sales it would leave the door open for traders to adopt that policy...

Bit I very definitely did ask the question and was answered with an emphatic no and when I asked for a declaration that the car was HPI clear it was given willingly with no hesitation..

Either way as the law stands today the seller has no defense and as you say "Not a leg to stand on" Solicitor sent the letter today and sent it recorded delivery guaranteed by 1 
It states clearly that if nothing is heard within 7 days we will definitely issue against them.. I am a man of my word and I assure you I will take this all the way.

Thanks to everyone who has contributed here. Just looking at some of the answers has confirmed my thoughts and given me the impetus to see this though .. Cheers


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## SteveTDCi (Feb 8, 2006)

I believe the same applies to traders, but they tend to hpi everything anyway. I think your request is reasonable and if he has any sense then he would give you the difference between the two values.

I had something similar, not with hpi but with number of owners and registration year, the car turned out to be a year older than it was declared to be by the ford dealer. Like you I wanted the difference back. It was hard work but I got it in the end.


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## ChuckH (Nov 23, 2006)

SteveTDCi said:


> If the seller stated and put it in writing the car was hpi clear then he doesn't have a leg to stand on. If the seller had been asked is the car hpi clear and he replied I don't know I've never checked then he would have been in the clear. From my understanding you only have to answer the question if asked.


The law says any miss description that raises the perceived value of a car means the seller is in the wrong and liable to be asked to refund accordingly . But you already know that.

Even a car described with full service history and doesn't have it could force a seller to compensate.

I found a test case where a buyer bought a car described as having full service history and was promised the service book. Buyer took delivery of the car and the dealer failed to supply the book so the buyer had to be compensated. I cant find that case now sadly or I would provide a link..

All I'm after is something fair. I have a written detailed valuation on my desk buy a vehicle valuer that prices cars when companies go into liquidation. He states that a car on Vcar is worth 50% less than one not on the register.

We shall see . :thumb:


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## ChuckH (Nov 23, 2006)

Right to answer the question how did we get on...
Well after receiving the solicitors very stern letter an agreement has been made between the seller and us to the effect we share the losses between us.. 
So a satisfactory result between two I think sensible parties. I will say though the seller sounded very genuine on the phone so making it easy to negotiate a good outcome..

Any way this is my last post here on DW so thank you all for the response to this thread and all the very best too you all!!

Chuck.


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## MDC250 (Jan 4, 2014)

ChuckH said:


> Right to answer the question how did we get on...
> Well after receiving the solicitors very stern letter an agreement has been made between the seller and us to the effect we share the losses between us..
> So a satisfactory result between two I think sensible parties. I will say though the seller sounded very genuine on the phone so making it easy to negotiate a good outcome..
> 
> ...


As is often the case, compromise is the best solution and it sounds like you are reasonably pleased by the outcome.

Thanks for updating, sorry again to see you leave DW...see you on DN.


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