# Agressive pad or polish?



## Luan Cordeiro (Mar 24, 2011)

What is most appropriate? make the cut by aggressive of the pad or Polish? Often when choosing a less aggressive combination you need to use more pressure or rotation, and this may induce marks.This is the question, so is more safe choose to cut a more aggressive polish than the pad, or the pad more aggressive than the polish? or is it relative to each type of paint?

All the best.
Luan Cordeiro


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## Mike Phillips (Jan 26, 2007)

Luan Cordeiro said:


> What is most appropriate? make the cut by aggressive of the pad or Polish? Often when choosing a less aggressive combination you need to use more pressure or rotation, and this may induce marks.


While this is true, in a normal process after the aggressive pad and products are used to remove the swirls and scratches you're going to do a follow-up step using less aggressive pads and products and this should remove any process induced defects as they are usually very shallow.



Luan Cordeiro said:


> This is the question, so is more safe choose to cut a more aggressive polish than the pad, or the pad more aggressive than the polish? or is it relative to each type of paint?
> 
> All the best.
> Luan Cordeiro


Great questions!

Normally I'll try to test a more aggressive pad using the same chemical and if that doesn't work then use both a more aggressive pad and a more aggressive chemical.

You didn't mention what type of tool your scenario would be applied to?


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## Luan Cordeiro (Mar 24, 2011)

Mike Phillips said:


> Great questions!
> 
> Normally I'll try to test a more aggressive pad using the same chemical and if that doesn't work then use both a more aggressive pad and a more aggressive chemical.
> 
> You didn't mention what type of tool your scenario would be applied to?


Mike,
In first place,thank you for the tips.

I always try to test the combination of less aggressive in both pads and in polishs, I follow a scale:










I jump some steps depending on the hardness of the painting, but always trying to keep a balanced combination to cut effectively without damaging the panel. I came here the question...
*
Is best suited to make the cut with the potential of polish or pad?*. I often have similar results by using black pad with aggressive polish and using wool pad with light polish for example. I think in the first example be using the potential of the product, but in the second example i exploring the potential of the pad.

I'm using rotary polisher.

3 more questions:

1) the two examples would be balanced? or one is more safer than the other?

2) for double action can follow the same scale?

3) there is any real difference between the work done by the potential of the product and the potential of the pad?

I think this subject is interesting to discuss, thank you one more time for explains.

All the best.
Luan Cordeiro


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## jvd45 (Oct 15, 2011)

great questions.. am also interested to learn more abt this


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## stangalang (Nov 27, 2009)

When using a rotary I tend to increase the polish first. Thoughts are that as long as you properly work the abrasives you can still finish down well. Where as an increase in pad might induce it's own marks. On da I must confess I go pad first just to make sure I am fully working the polish. Hth


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## Mike Phillips (Jan 26, 2007)

Let me see if I can answer a few of your questions but one thing I try real hard not to do and that is make things more complicated than they have to be... Instead I'm a big fan of KISS

*KISS = Keep it Simple Simon*

When I was younger I would get caught up into doing as many steps as I could to create the perfect finish, nothing wrong with that but if I can get the same results with 2-4 steps I'm going down that path instead.



Luan Cordeiro said:


> *Is best suited to make the cut with the potential of polish or pad?*.


With the abrasive chemical. For example if I'm going to wetsand a car the next step will be to cut out my sanding marks and I don't want to try do that with the abrasive fibers of a wool cutting pad when I can use actual abrasives designed and formulated by a chemist specifically for this job.



Luan Cordeiro said:


> I often have similar results by using black pad with aggressive polish and using wool pad with light polish for example. I think in the first example be using the potential of the product, but in the second example i exploring the potential of the pad.


Makes sense as you can use all kinds of different approaches to reach the same goal. When talking about paint correction, at some point the THE POINT is to abrade the paint, whether you do that with a Caveman Compound or a Wool Pad made from the fur from a Woolly Mammoth, something is going to be needed to cut the paint.

The goals are the same for most people,


Remove the defect as fast and thorough as possible
Leave the nicest looking finish possible for aggressive products so the next step of refining the first step is faster and easier.



Luan Cordeiro said:


> I'm using rotary polisher.
> 
> 3 more questions:
> 
> 1) the two examples would be balanced? or one is more safer than the other?


Well your liquid chemical is also a lubricant and the liquid portions lubricate or buffer the abrading action plus help to reduce heat.

Sometimes I like to position things in extreme just to make a point. That said, if you take things to extremes and only buffed with a pad there would be no lubrication and more heat which neither are good if the goal is a deep wet shine. In all honesty you want a *balance* but I would lean more towards the chemical as being of greater importance than the pad.

Here's my article on balance...

*The Graphic Equalizer Analogy to Polishing Paint *

Another example would be that with the right chemical/compound I can remove defects by hand with a variety of application materials as I could by machine. With just the pad it would be hard to abrade paint effectively.



Luan Cordeiro said:


> 2) for double action can follow the same scale?


I'm kind of lost... I don't use a scale or a chart to buff out cars. I pick a chemical line I want to use and then use the least aggressive product to get the job done. I practice what I preach and that is for every car that I've never worked on previously I do a *TEST SPOT* with the pads, products, tools and techniques I'm "thinking" of using over the entire car.

If the results from my Test Spot look *GREAT* then I simply duplicate the process to the rest of the car and assuming the car has all the same paint then it's safe to assume I'll get the same results over the rest of the car that I created in my Test Spot.

Once in a while you run into a car with panels that have been repainted and what worked in your test area might not work on the panels with different paint, that's where --> you <-- as a professional detailer need to be flexible and able to adapt on the fly. 
(See the Graphic Equalizer Analogy)

Here's an example of different paint on the same car...



Mike Phillips said:


> See this article I wrote in 2008 for MOL
> 
> *How To Test for a Clearcoat or Single Stage Paint Finish*
> 
> ...





Luan Cordeiro said:


> 3) there is any real difference between the work done by the potential of the product and the potential of the pad?


When reduced to the lowest form of comparison, that is... is paint being removed? Then I guess not. But I would refer you back to my points about liquids and what they bring to the table via cooling via lubrication. One thing that people sometimes forget to leave out of the equation when going deep, deep, deep into discussions on paint polishing is the goal.

A clear, deep wet shine with excellent gloss, like this,







































Luan Cordeiro said:


> I think this subject is interesting to discuss, thank you one more time for explains.
> 
> All the best.
> Luan Cordeiro


I don't know if I helped at all but I tried...

I've been posting to the Internet since 1994, back then all we had was the Usenet Newsgroups and I posted to rec.autos.misc

In 2000 vBulletin was introduced, (the thing we're interfacing in right now), and since when I started to type on forums about the craft I'm passionate about to today I've seen and been involved in a lot of deep discussions on every imaginable topic and what I've learned is to keep it simple, for both myself and for anyone detailing the car in their garage that I'm trying to help.


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## happmadison1978 (Jul 27, 2010)

@Mike I'm just a novice but have never failed to be impressed by both the level of detail and the depth of content- a real pleasure to read!


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## Luan Cordeiro (Mar 24, 2011)

Mike Phillips said:


> In 2000 vBulletin was introduced, (the thing we're interfacing in right now), and since when I started to type on forums about the craft I'm passionate about to today I've seen and been involved in a lot of deep discussions on every imaginable topic and what I've learned is to keep it simple, for both myself and for anyone detailing the car in their garage that I'm trying to help.


Thank you for the explanation, helped me to adapt the theories in practice. Be sure that I did not think of another person to ask about that! I like the KISS, but before, i need to go deep, to after choose the best way, and you helped me discussing this with me.

I made this scale to illustrate the way I do the test spot, going from less aggressive to more aggressive until I find the best set.

I hope one day to discuss with you personally about machine polishing.

Thanks for the lesson.
Luan


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## Mike Phillips (Jan 26, 2007)

Luan Cordeiro said:


> I hope one day to discuss with you personally about machine polishing.
> 
> Thanks for the lesson.
> Luan


I would love to come to the U.K. to hold some detailing classes plus meet my forum friends on Detail World and put a name to an Avatar...

Need to find a way to make this work...

Any big detailing seminars or Get Togethers in the U.K. in 2012?


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## Luan Cordeiro (Mar 24, 2011)

Mike Phillips said:


> I would love to come to the U.K. to hold some detailing classes plus meet my forum friends on Detail World and put a name to an Avatar...
> 
> Need to find a way to make this work...
> 
> Any big detailing seminars or Get Togethers in the U.K. in 2012?


Sorry Mike, I'm from Brazil!

I've done courses with Billy Martinez, he had a good experience in the USA and taught me much about this profession.

He is now organizing a clinic in November with Richard Lin and David Sylican here in Brazil.

I hope this is confirmed.
You will always be welcome here!

All the best.
Luan


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## Mike Phillips (Jan 26, 2007)

Luan Cordeiro said:


> He is now organizing a clinic in November with Richard Lin and David Sylican here in Brazil.


Two of the best in the business... anyone that attends a clinic with David and Richard will leave with increased knowledge and greater skills.

:thumb:


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