# What affect glazes have on wax durability?



## badman1972 (Jun 24, 2010)

Morning everyone, hope someone can help shed some light on this for me. I am about to do the winter protection on our cars and started wondering, when people say 'glazes' like CG Blacklight have a durability of say 2 months, if this is applied first then topped with a very durable wax like Collie 845, what affect does the shorter lasting product beneath have, given that the topping wax is bonded onto it rather than directly to clean paintwork?

In the same manner, when a previous wax or LSP is ready for renewal, does it need to be fully removed before application of a new one or ok to apply on top? I wonder again as the top layer will be bonding to a layer of almost gone wax rather than fresh clean paint?

Anyone know? Appreciate any replies.................


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## bigmc (Mar 22, 2010)

Blacklight is an LSP not a glaze strictly speaking. When I'm ready or want to put a new layer of whatever on I usually take it back to the panel and start afresh.


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## bero1306 (Jan 24, 2011)

What you are referring to above are waxes and sealants and imo not glazes. Your first layer is your foundation and anything you put on after this is only as good as the first. (although you will get better protection) Once your done you will need to strip back all layers with a cleaner to start again.


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## badman1972 (Jun 24, 2010)

bigmc said:


> Blacklight is an LSP not a glaze strictly speaking. When I'm ready or want to put a new layer of whatever on I usually take it back to the panel and start afresh.


Thanks for the reply mate.

I have read posts suggesting it as a glaze, but either way, the products were just an example and mainly interested in how any previously applied products will afffect the life of the top layer LSP whatever they may be? I maybe didn't word it quite how I meant 

For example, my silver BM is wearing 6 coats of Werkstat Acrylic JT which are around 2 months old now, when I come to winter prep it, would I need to remove all of these first to get the most durability or could I apply over them?

Wife's STi currently has Glasur on which again is around 2 months old, would this need removal completely before applying new for winter?

Thanks


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## bigmc (Mar 22, 2010)

If your car is wearing AJT I'd just wash and apply more AJT tbh.


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## TOGWT (Oct 26, 2005)

(Layered) durability can only be as good as the weakest link in the chain


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## badman1972 (Jun 24, 2010)

TOGWT said:


> (Layered) durability can only be as good as the weakest link in the chain


Yes, this is sort of what I was wondering and it sort of makes sense, although I was unsure if say a previous wax had 2 weeks protection left (hard to measure I know, but for the sake of example) and a fresh wax was applied over the top after a good wash only, would the new wax only last those 2 weeks? and if so it would suggest that the process of topping up waxes which many follow would then be deemed totally pointless?
This part doesn't quite make sense to me that a long durability wax would only last as long as those 2 weeks of the previous??


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## athol (Oct 3, 2009)

I often wondered this. Due to lack of time to properly strip the LSP off my car and start again, I just add another layer of Collie 845 when beading starts to deminish. So does the wax now last another '6 months?' or does it last as long as is left in the bottom layer of wax ?


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## bero1306 (Jan 24, 2011)

You can keep protection going with spray sealants etc which is what im doing at the moment with my Blackfire but you can only go so far then its a strip back and re-apply.


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## bero1306 (Jan 24, 2011)

athol said:


> I often wondered this. Due to lack of time to properly strip the LSP off my car and start again, I just add another layer of Collie 845 when beading starts to deminish. So does the wax now last another '6 months?' or does it last as long as is left in the bottom layer of wax ?


You would of upped your protection but you will have new wax sitting on old wax so you will not get the full benifit from doing this.


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## badman1972 (Jun 24, 2010)

I wondered though whether when applying a new layer over an old existing layer, if the new may 'reconstitute' what is left of the old to form a whole new bonded layer, which should then add the full durability of the new layer. 

This was the reason for asking and would mean in that case, topping up would be fine, whereas if the new just bonds to what is there, it would only last as long as that


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## badman1972 (Jun 24, 2010)

Interestingly a number of professional detailers offer a 'wax top-up' option for previously detailed cars which follows a wash and dry procedure (no paint cleansing), which would suggest that they believe this is providing a whole new level of protection rather than only lasting the life of the last LSP on the vehicle, would love a definite answer on this if anyone knows how the new layer reacts/bonds with the existing.


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## Reflectology (Jul 29, 2009)

I think in most cases, well mine anyway the Wax Top Up includes the pre cleanse of the paintwork so most may just word it like that but in the info written may include the pre cleanse...I have a wash n shine detail which i list as being suitable for previous clients....so not a ********** service for one aspect of the job....

Russ


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## badman1972 (Jun 24, 2010)

Reflectology said:


> I think in most cases, well mine anyway the Wax Top Up includes the pre cleanse of the paintwork so most may just word it like that but in the info written may include the pre cleanse...I have a wash n shine detail which i list as being suitable for previous clients....so not a ********** service for one aspect of the job....
> 
> Russ


Thanks for that Russ

Just to clarify to all, I am not in any way suggesting anything by asking that, just merely trying to understand what truly happens to previous LSP when a fresh coat is applied over the top, as in does it actually reconstitute the original wax and form a fresh full durability layer or merely bond to the existing which in reality wouldn't add much at all.

Many people have opinions on how to do it and their own prefferred methods for their own reasons, but it would be nice to know what actually happens in this case and whether you really add anything in topping up.

Jeff


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## Sirmally2 (Feb 28, 2011)

I've just done my winter detail, and i stripped right back with apc, achilles tar and glue and clay before using a fresh coat of achilles prep and then two coats of 845... I would never take the chance of doing a "top up" coat over winter. Maybe only in the summer if i have a busy few weeks where i wouldnt have the time to do a full detail.

It poses a feasable question where i think the answer lies with the asnwer "A team is only as strong as its weakest player" But that is just my opinion, i think a top up maybe good for an additional couple of weeks


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## badman1972 (Jun 24, 2010)

Sirmally2 said:


> I've just done my winter detail, and i stripped right back with apc, achilles tar and glue and clay before using a fresh coat of achilles prep and then two coats of 845... I would never take the chance of doing a "top up" coat over winter. Maybe only in the summer if i have a busy few weeks where i wouldnt have the time to do a full detail.
> 
> It poses a feasable question where i think the answer lies with the asnwer "A team is only as strong as its weakest player" But that is just my opinion, i think a top up maybe good for an additional couple of weeks


I know what you mean mate, but I just don't totally believe it, I still think there is something in the new layer of wax actually reconstituting the previous layers through the solvents or whatever, as I can't believe an existing wax with say 2 weeks life left would totally die and also take a brand new layer with it in it's entirety after just 2 weeks.

I have this year layered 2 coats of Colli 845 over the remains of the Glasur as the paintwork was already still in good order and to (maybe foolishly) see how well it works for the winter, if it fails, I am indeed a fool LOL :lol:


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## MrPARR (Jul 26, 2007)

I would just top up, the only time I ever strip back is when I am changing from a wax to a sealent or vice versa.

I don't really understand what people are saying about the new layer only being as strong as the old layer? Wax doesnt suddently just start falling off the car, beading and sheeting starts to fade because the wax is being worn off the paintwork from dust/water/air etc.

If you're applying the same wax, it makes next to no difference as you're just applying a thicker layer to the worn down layer.

The only time it would make a difference is if you apply a wax that normally lasts 6 months to a wax that lasts 6 weeks, as the foundation is softer and more prone to wear away taking your longer lasting wax with it.


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## GSchneider (Jul 11, 2011)

I am still unclear, 

If the glaze on a car lasts hypothetically 2 weeks and a wax lasts 2 months if I put the wax on top of the glaze does that mean I only actually have 2 weeks of protection? or will the wax lock in the glaze for 2 months given the durability of the wax layer.


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## badman1972 (Jun 24, 2010)

GSchneider said:


> I am still unclear,
> 
> If the glaze on a car lasts hypothetically 2 weeks and a wax lasts 2 months if I put the wax on top of the glaze does that mean I only actually have 2 weeks of protection? or will the wax lock in the glaze for 2 months given the durability of the wax layer.


Exactly why it doesn't make sense to me and reason for my original post mate, it seems noone appears to really know (other than saying what they do or think) hence me trying a bit of a test on the bride's Scooby over the winter to see how the 2 layers of Collie 845 last over the 2 layers of Glasur which were due to be topped up much sooner than 845 should last 

I also reapplied layers of Werkstat AJT over those which I had on the BMW and will see how that progresses without going a full strip-back route


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## Avanti (Jan 17, 2006)

badman1972 said:


> Exactly why it doesn't make sense to me and reason for my original post mate, it seems noone appears to really know (other than saying what they do or think) hence me trying a bit of a test on the bride's Scooby over the winter to see how the 2 layers of Collie 845 last over the 2 layers of Glasur which were due to be topped up much sooner than 845 should last
> 
> I also reapplied layers of Werkstat AJT over those which I had on the BMW and will see how that progresses without going a full strip-back route


Glaze is a light polish, so the wax on top is what counts, UV and other elements affects the durability, and like it or not and contrary to the popular rumour, the summer time tests your LSP more than the UK winter.


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## Lowiepete (Mar 29, 2009)

badman1972 said:


> I wondered though whether when applying a new layer over an old existing layer, if the new may 'reconstitute' what is left of the old to form a whole new bonded layer, which should then add the full durability of the new layer.


I've often pondered this too. I _think_ the answer is going to be totally 
dependent upon whether or not the LSP is solvent heavy. Collinite 476s for
example has little or no cleaning ability, whereas FK1000p will dissolve tar
spots. So, my reckoning is that the answer is probably no with the Collinite 
and a definite maybe for the FK.

As for adding CG Black Light into the equation, my approach for the winter 
has been to top FK1000p with it (rather than the other way round) and then 
use a spray sealant or a carnauba based QD for ongoing top-ups. My feeling 
is that the FK solvents would probably remove the Blacklight anyway.

Regards,
Steve


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## badman1972 (Jun 24, 2010)

Avanti said:


> Glaze is a light polish, so the wax on top is what counts, UV and other elements affects the durability, and like it or not and contrary to the popular rumour, the summer time tests your LSP more than the UK winter.


Yes, good point mate, I think the reason so much ephasis is placed on the winter protection is because we endure a long period where we are often unable to continue our normal protection routine, so although it maybe actually less harsh on durability, it needs to last and protect for longer than we normally would ask it to due to weather constraints.


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## badman1972 (Jun 24, 2010)

Lowiepete said:


> I've often pondered this too. I _think_ the answer is going to be totally
> dependent upon whether or not the LSP is solvent heavy. Collinite 476s for
> example has little or no cleaning ability, whereas FK1000p will dissolve tar
> spots. So, my reckoning is that the answer is probably no with the Collinite
> ...


Thanks Steve. I was of the understanding that all Carnauba waxes must have some degree of solvent or other to make them workable as a paste or liquid as pure Carnaube is rock hard? So even the solvent 'un-heavy' ones must have enough to dissolve the wax.

I assume the solvents then flash off (out gas) during curing time on the vehicle, this is what made me wonder whether these solvents or whatever they use; would be enough to reconsitute the layer attached to the vehicle?

Interesting subject and thanks for all the input so far :thumb:


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## Lowiepete (Mar 29, 2009)

badman1972 said:


> I was of the understanding that all Carnauba waxes must have some degree of solvent or other to make them workable as a paste or liquid as pure Carnauba is rock hard? So even the solvent 'un-heavy' ones must have enough to dissolve the wax.


The problem being that not all of the additives, certainly in paste waxes and
sealants, have solvent properties. Sealants seem to have a propensity for 
seeking out the untreated paint layer, the most notable of these being Opti
Seal. 


badman1972 said:


> I assume the solvents then flash off (out gas) during curing time on the vehicle, this is what made me wonder whether these solvents or whatever they use; would be enough to reconsitute the layer attached to the vehicle?


I've got a feeling that this might remain as an imponderable because it strays
into the realm of trade secrets. My gut feeling about this is that probably
very few of us here ever get to the stage where the previous coating(s) are 
left long enough to get tired enough to prove it either way.

Presently, I have two panels on the car that have not been winter-prepped.
Indeed, the last bit of "detailing" done on them was when I applied the Harly
Wax by the spit and polish method back in July. The maintenance they are 
getting is no more than the regular ONR wash and the occasional QD.

As far as looks go, yes you can see a difference, but only because you know
its there. The depth of reflection and shine is subtle, but for 3 month old wax
I think it's outstanding, and I'm very tempted to simply continue with the 
current maintenance routine as long as I can.

There is one other point to make. It's amazing how quickly "trends" can start
on here. There seem to be a growing number of posts that claim a relatively
short coating life for CG Black Light. I'm becoming hugely skeptical of these.

I'm not quite in a position to prove or yet disprove, however, my gut feeling 
is that it will last a lot longer than the 2 months being claimed! The way it so
far resists harm from heavy overnight dews followed by the early morning sun 
burning it off, yet keeping its slickness, makes this quite a remarkable product.

Regards,
Steve


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## badman1972 (Jun 24, 2010)

Lowiepete said:


> The problem being that not all of the additives, certainly in paste waxes and
> sealants, have solvent properties. Sealants seem to have a propensity for
> seeking out the untreated paint layer, the most notable of these being Opti
> Seal.
> ...


Thanks again Steve, I agree as you say, those that maybe do know may not want to share for obvious reasons, we will just have to keep our own mini-trials going and learn as we go how things seem to last and react 

Jeff


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## RedUntilDead (Feb 10, 2009)

Great question and is one I have asked of myself.
Some great replies too and hopefully more will follow:thumb:


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## HellYeah (Oct 3, 2011)

Interesting.......something I've been wondering lately, as I'm caught in 2 minds over whether to just top up my wax or strip back and re-apply the layers

Many thanks


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