# Hologramming from Megs MF system



## ginge7289 (Feb 21, 2011)

Just wondered if anyone else has had any problems with this? I was doing my roof today and after completing it with the compound I looked at it in the sun and could see slight holograms. A quick set with FF3000 on a black hex pad sorted it. But none the less I was under the impression it finished down pretty well which is clearly not the case.


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## bigmc (Mar 22, 2010)

It could've been your technique though, it's easy to blame product etc and as nobody else had voiced concerns over the finish I'd give it a second chance.


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## John @ PB (Aug 25, 2010)

What type of paint were you working on? 

How did you refine: with the DA finishing pads and wax?


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## sal329 (Jun 27, 2008)

I have had no issues with the cutting disc on my Griots Garage DA using Meguiars D300 and M105 or using HD UNO. I use heavy pressure for 3 passes then lighten up for for the final few passes speed anywhere from 3.5-4 sometimes 4.5


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## ginge7289 (Feb 21, 2011)

bigmc said:


> It could've been your technique though, it's easy to blame product etc and as nobody else had voiced concerns over the finish I'd give it a second chance.


I have used it a few times before and never noticed any drama's with it. I did the whole front end the day before last and again did not notice any holograms. So I am more than happy to keep using it, but today was the first time I noticed it and as I said it was very slight but there none the less.

John, I saw the hologramming whilst I was doing the roof, I had not finished down or waxed at that point. I gave it an IPA wipe down before trying to refine to see if that was the problem but it was still there. I was doing Vectra c paint. FF3000 got rid of it so its all gone now but just wondered if others had to finish down because of this. I see a lot of people saying they can finish down fine with it, which I thought I was doing until today.


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## John @ PB (Aug 25, 2010)

It'll be the soft paint of the Vauxhall. 

We discovered the Cutting Discs and Correction Compound were too strong for the soft paint so it'll have micromarred on the soft paint. (Basically, the paint doesn't offer enough resistance for the compound to break down properly, leaving micromarring). 

(We've noted on the product pages that the Compound and Discs aren't suitable for soft paints)


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## dschia (Sep 21, 2008)

Have not come across holograms yet but I am having a different issues. I did a black Honda CRV recently and saw some uniform scouring marks when inspected under LED light.


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## MidlandsCarCare (Feb 18, 2006)

dschia said:


> Have not come across holograms yet but I am having a different issues. I did a black Honda CRV recently and saw some uniform scouring marks when inspected under LED light.


Did you prime the pad properly? Or were there fibres not 'pink' in colour before you started? I'd suggest that would be the issue.


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## John @ PB (Aug 25, 2010)

dschia said:


> Have not come across holograms yet but I am having a different issues. I did a black Honda CRV recently and saw some uniform scouring marks when inspected under LED light.


With a DA, it's micromarring you'll see, rather than hologramming, and again, in this case, I suspect that's what you've seen; the Honda paint being very soft and the compound and microfibre cutting disc being too aggressive for the paint type.

It's just the same as foam in this respect; you wouldn't go in with a really aggressive pad and polish combination on a soft paint with foam and this system is no different.

It's also crucial when working with this system to ensure the pad is as clean as possible and this can be a contributory factor towards micromarring.


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## neo8047 (May 5, 2006)

So basically is it best to avoid the Megs M/F system on soft paint? I have a Nissan QQ and Subaru to correct in the coming weeks and I though about investing in the system as I have heard some say that it is better than the rotary with sticky paints.


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## John @ PB (Aug 25, 2010)

For a Nissan I'd use a DA with foam, the Subaru, the paint hardness varies with age. 

The Nissan shouldn't have sticky paint, the Subaru might, depending on it's age.


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## MeguiarsUK (Apr 7, 2011)

John @ PB sounds as though he really has this system sorted and knows it quite well. Yes, on softer paints the cutting disc and D300 often will leave some level of micro marring but, as the OP noticed, a quick follow with the finishing disc and D301 will generally clean things up quite nicely.

This system loves hard paint, and it can correct very severe defects when worked properly. But, again as John @ PB points out, soft or delicate paints will micro mar or haze to some degree even with aggressive foam pads. No one system is going to be perfect on every single paint, so doing that all important test spot before correcting the entire car is important.

A few other points to note when using this system:


cutting should be done at 4800 opm
finishing should be done at 3800 opm
increased cut comes from added pressure or slower arm movement, NOT increased tool speed
the amount of pressure applied when using this system is generally much greater than when using foam
the cutting disc must be properly primed prior to use
minimal product is used for each section pass - 2 to 5 drops of product is all that's needed once the pad is primed
cleaning the disc between sections is critical during the cutting process, much less so during the finishing process

To further assist you with this system we have recreated *HERE on Detailing World* the original introductory thread made from our US forum, meguiarsonline.com Hopefully that article will help answer many questions about proper use of the system, as well as clear up some misconceptions regarding same.


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## ginge7289 (Feb 21, 2011)

Strange how it did not do it on my bonnet or on another vectra bonnet I did using this system. Well I still have the doors and boot to do on mine so I guess ill keep practicing with it as I really do like the speed and ease of the cutting process.

Thanks again.


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## John @ PB (Aug 25, 2010)

Are they both original paint? 

It could be that the way the light reflects on the bonnet you're not seeing the micromarring on these panels. 

I'd switch to conventional foam for the remainder of your car and keep the MF system for other cars with harder paints.


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## Yellow Dave (Apr 5, 2011)

are the pads and compounds cross compatible? say for softer paint using the DA cutting compound with the DA finishing pad as you would with foam and normal compounds?


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## caledonia (Sep 13, 2008)

What you have probably noticed. Is pressure induced marring. Created when you have been leaning over the roof, putting slightly more pressure down over the head of the machine. And not backing back the pressure with working speed. for the last few passes. You probably did not induce as much pressure while doing the other panels on your car. Do to not over stretching.

Megs D300 uses unigrit abrasives to try and work it similar to 105 and 205. But different lubrication. Reducing the pressure and slowing down your hand movements on your last few passes to aid refinement. This will remove some of the deeper micro marring created during your heavy cutting stage.

These shots where on an Evo IV, With soft paint.

Before









After









After under Sungun


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## paddy328 (Mar 4, 2007)

Just had mine through and will be testing it out on a gallardo. 

Now what i would like to know is, do you have to keep spurring the pad after each section, like half a wing for example, then smearing it with polish like you saw nathan do in his vid on the gt3? Or do you only do that at the start and after using the brush to clean the pad, you then just have to use a few drops?

Very newbie sort of question, but this is a new way of working and im a foam pad kinda guy.

Francis


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## paddy328 (Mar 4, 2007)

Also, anyone know what speed my pc is around the 4 and 5 mark?


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## caledonia (Sep 13, 2008)

paddy328 said:


> Just had mine through and will be testing it out on a gallardo.
> 
> Now what i would like to know is, do you have to keep spurring the pad after each section, like half a wing for example, then smearing it with polish like you saw nathan do in his vid on the gt3? Or do you only do that at the start and after using the brush to clean the pad, you then just have to use a few drops?
> 
> ...


You only have to fully prime the pad at the start. After that I normally resort to 2 pea size drops every set there after. But I blow off the pad with an airline every set. I would also do the same if spurring. The dried in compound could possibly cause marring also and absorb some of the lube from the new polish. In turn dry buffing.
Cleaning is the only option to maintain the cut.
Sorry I cant help with the speeds on the PC. But I normally run at 41/2 on the Das6 Pro or G220. With the correction compound. Lower if using the finishing wax.


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## paddy328 (Mar 4, 2007)

Cheers for that. I have just read the megs guide and i will be cleaning the pad after every set. Will be funny to see something like a chalk outline from a murder scene around the car lol.


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## ginge7289 (Feb 21, 2011)

John @ PB said:


> Are they both original paint?
> 
> It could be that the way the light reflects on the bonnet you're not seeing the micromarring on these panels.


There was defiantly no micromarring on the bonnet, I did that 3 days ago and checked it when the sun was out, Also checked with the swirl torch and all seemed fine, also did the other vec bonnet about 2 weeks ago and have not see any of it on that. The paint is original on both. Using as a 2 stage process is not a bad thing, the clarity that FF3000 gives is really good. I usually use menz PF2500 on a white pad to correct a Vectra. But I do like the way the MF system gets rid of swirls and RDS.



caledonia said:


> What you have probably noticed. Is pressure induced marring. Created when you have been leaning over the roof, putting slightly more pressure down over the head of the machine. And not backing back the pressure with working speed. for the last few passes.


You could be right mate, I split the roof down into 9 sections, so surely over stretching would have been just in the middle?


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## dschia (Sep 21, 2008)

RussZS said:


> Did you prime the pad properly? Or were there fibres not 'pink' in colour before you started? I'd suggest that would be the issue.


Yes, its as pink as ******. =P



John @ PB said:


> With a DA, it's micromarring you'll see, rather than hologramming, and again, in this case, I suspect that's what you've seen; the Honda paint being very soft and the compound and microfibre cutting disc being too aggressive for the paint type.
> 
> It's just the same as foam in this respect; you wouldn't go in with a really aggressive pad and polish combination on a soft paint with foam and this system is no different.
> 
> It's also crucial when working with this system to ensure the pad is as clean as possible and this can be a contributory factor towards micromarring.


I tried it on a couple of paintwork. First was on a california which imo has medium- hard paint. I prime it well but I quit working the d300 sooner then it suppose to I got those 'micro-marring'. Tried working it fully and it works. My feeling: MF pad + D300 is less forgiving when not worked properly, polish amount use is thus very important for efficiency.

Then on a Black Honda CRV, I was still doing a test spot so the pad wasnt dirty yet. I prime it well and work it fully (didn't lessen my pressure with slow movement at the end which is something i just learnt) but had some 'micro-marring' (pigtail like but isn't quite the same as i get with sanding, in fact i can see somethig was not right just with the naked eye). Did a wipe down and some hazing appear but most swirls removed in just one pass, however, plenty of deeper defects remains etc water spot etching. Then I tried with rotary + B&S yellow + Power finish; remove most swirls and alot more water spot without 'micro-marring'. In fact it was awesome by looking with the naked eye. Did a wipe down and saw full of horrible hazing. My feeling: Wasn't quite sure which combo I like better, but considering all factors, I am swaying towards the latter for now.

Today did a skoda bumper which imo has a medium paintwork. I decided not prime the pad at all, I just add 4-5 pea size and work it straight, surprisely it worked very well, but when inspecting i can see that I din't level the paintwork as even as before. My feeling: Learn about priming too much or too little has their own problem, but I love the combo on bumper as metally feel alot safer.

Overall impression- Feel that the system is extrodinary; its nothing like before with a DA. My go to system in some cases but certainly won't replaced how I buff usually. Maybe it will in future if I have master it..


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## autoaesthetica (May 13, 2011)

You guys need to be aware that SMAT non diminishing abrasives leave micromarring on softer finishes. The fact that the pad system is microfiber is totally irrelevant. Some finishes simply need diminishing technology to be finished down correctly.

Micromarring just happens, even with stuff like M205 on certain finishes that might not really be _allll that_ soft.


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## Reflectology (Jul 29, 2009)

Maybe its not just soft paint as I have been called in to rectify a Hologram issue on a Golf as this chap cant seem to shift them with the MF System after using it...so hard or soft it seems that it may cause issues....


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## MidlandsCarCare (Feb 18, 2006)

I think as much as anything, it's down to user error. This isn't a fool proof way to easy swirl removal, it requires a very specific technique and process, which it seems is stumping a few inexperienced people. It should come with very specific instructions - unless you've watched the guides or read the reviews, you may struggle.


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## John @ PB (Aug 25, 2010)

Reflectology said:


> Maybe its not just soft paint as I have been called in to rectify a Hologram issue on a Golf as this chap cant seem to shift them with the MF System after using it...so hard or soft it seems that it may cause issues....


Could be a user issue, but it'd be interesting to see what you find. Could be resprayed panels? Might be good to get the customer to talk you through, face to face, what he did.

Have you seen the car? It'd be good to hear what your eye sees here - could it be marks from previous which are too deep to remove with this system etc?





RussZS said:


> I think as much as anything, it's down to user error. This isn't a fool proof way to easy swirl removal, it requires a very specific technique and process, which it seems is stumping a few inexperienced people. It should come with very specific instructions - unless you've watched the guides or read the reviews, you may struggle.


It's not foolproof, you're absolutely right. It needs to be applied and used as per instructions and all warnings etc have to be heeded properly but when it's used properly it's a very useful system to have.


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## RaskyR1 (Jan 6, 2009)

As noted the system can leave behind micro marring on some paints, but that's pretty common with most SMAT compounds on DA polishers. However, it's easily removed with most any finishing polish.

This system does have a pretty large learning curve IMO and simply spending some time adjusting your technique can have dramatic differences in the quality of finish this system leaves....I find the more you use it the more you will love it! :thumb:






Some 50/50 shots after D300

Chevy Tahoe


















Nissan Altima









Lexus IS250









This was M105/MF on a Lexus RX450









Rasky


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## ginge7289 (Feb 21, 2011)

Well as mine was only on the roof I am putting this down to over stretching and not being comfortable with the machine, think a step is in order to do a roof.


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## Kevin Brown (May 10, 2008)

As taken from a thread about OPT microfiber pads... also posted in the Detailing Guide:
Pad Priming and Supplemental Wetting Agents:



> Originally Posted by silverfox
> ... Many times, I'd like to finish down with a MF pad/polish....to the same level as what I can do with foam pad/polish. Perhaps its my technique. Not sure.
> 
> Seems the MF pad revolution works great for correcting....but foam still finishes down for FINAL finishing better. I was hoping that the finishing piece of the MF puzzle would have been solved at this point to compete, if not exceed using foam for final finishing or even jeweling.
> ...


I will try. I just sent this info to a friend yesterday, and recalled that you asked about final polishing with a microfiber disc.

*Certainly a microfiber disc can rival a foam pad in terms of finishing ability.*

However, I have seen what you speak of in that, on some paints it seems that no matter what you do, *micro-marring* seems to form across the paint's surface when using a microfiber disc.

Keep in mind that when using a *foam pad* featuring a *flat face*, for the most part, all of the foam is lined up in a single plane (the foam face is lying at the same level). Assuming the foam itself is not overly stiff or abrasive, nor impregnated with some sort of abrasive residue, particle, or substance, the foam should simply act as a *squeegee*, or *applicator*.

As the machine moves the pad, the polish is distributed across the paint, and the pad scuttles it along. Some of the buffing liquid will inevitably attach to the membrane structure of the pad across its face. If the buffing liquid contains any sort of abrasive media, then it will affect the paint surface more aggressively than the liquid that is not attached to the face. This is because it is moving at maximum speed (tied directly to the pad), and it is positioned between the pad and the paint. So, user applied pressure and lateral machine motion forces the liquid into the paint.

The other thing to consider is that, since some of the membranes are *structurally tied together*, they tend to move in *tandem*. As the pad encounters an obstacle or variance in the polishing surface, the connected foam _pulls and lifts_ or _pulls and drops_ the piece of foam directly next to it. Due to this dynamic, foam pads likely do not have large variances in pressure, at least from one membrane to the next. If you think about the tracks used on tanks and bulldozers, you'll get a better visual. It's not the same thing because the wheels are riding atop the track (essentially the tracks are creating a flat road, or they're distributing the weight of the vehicle... look at it however you'd like).

*Microfiber discs* on the other hand, do not enjoy this dynamic. So, a single strand placed next to another gets no such "tow-along" benefit. In addition, there really isn't a squeegee-like action when using a microfiber disc, at least not like you'd get when using a foam pad. This is because the fibers lack a firm structure (as just mentioned), and there's nothing to tie them together (they are not connected to one another like the membrane structure of a foam pad). Instead, the polish usually attaches to the microfiber material, and goes along for the ride.

In the case of the microfiber discs, the material is much finer than the membrane structure of even a 100PPI foam finishing pad (PPI ratings can be misleading, because the walls of the pad can vary in thickness, and the foam materials can vary in rigidity). Therefore, the microfibers won't cause any noticeable marring, unless they're placed under an unusual amount of pressure.

Unfortunately, therein lies the issue... in order for the microfiber material to cut evenly, we have to place enough pressure upon the pad to create a leveled face. Otherwise, we have to rely upon the fibers being coated with polish, and hope that they'll drag the polish across the surface in an even manner. It might eventually do that, but it sure could take a long time. It would be like trying to wipe away wax from the paint surface using a microfiber, and never adjusting the pressure on stubborn areas. To eliminate the stubborn wax, you'd have to rub repeatedly until the wax was eliminated, and all that rubbing could be detrimental to the finish on areas that have no wax buildup.

Once a microfiber strand has polish attached to it, it can be difficult for the particle to release from it. If the polish contains abrasive particles, and the particles clump together, the clumps will cut deeper or wider, and you'll see the cuts in the form of micro-marring.

This is why it's often best to prime the finishing pad with the buffing liquid, then blow it clean (or eliminate as much polish as you can by pressing the face of the disc against a microfiber towel and run the machine for several seconds). The goal is to get extremely even coverage of the microfibers, coating them with an evenly applied amount of buffing liquid. Once you're certain that the fibers are well primed, use only a minute amount of polish. Enough so that there is enough present to polish the surface (you want a thin layer of buffing liquid between the fibers and the paint). If the polish contains abrasive particles, we ideally want them to roll about, not drag along with the pad at speed.

A slow speed setting will deliver a better result than a fast speed setting. A minimal amount of backing plate rotation is desirable, as opposed to rapid rotation. It's all about moving the fibers slowly, so they can adjust positioning rather than forcing their way through obstacles (curves in the polishing surface).

Finally, a large diameter disc will finish better than a small diameter disc, as there is more surface area available to load abraded paint residue.

Hard to put this into words for you.


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## Ronnie (Nov 15, 2006)

Just to add with John It is micro marring. I have used several different types and brand of the microfibre and hybrid microfibre pad and you can get different levels of cut and finish using different pads withthe Megs compound. We have usesd it on super soft honda and nissan paint and found that slowing your speed and your work area it will eradicate the problem pretty much. You will infact work slower to work quicker. however I won't make a liar of myself and I will say I personally 99% of the time refine with the rotaryunless it is a really sticky paint like a Range Rover or certain Porsche paints wher ei will usually do a finishing pass with the DA.. the product is speed and pressure sensitive and once you use it on a certain paint you will notice that different speeds and pressures can make a massive differeence to the finish... Chemical guys ones do not seam to have as an agressive a cut as the Megs pads. If you want try them as the subtle difference in pad does make a difference.I'm by no means an expert but I hope this helps you out. As said above It took me about 5-6 cars to get into teh swing of it and even now 20+ cars in and about 6-7 months using the product I am still learning. Keep at it and you will get there.


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## Trip tdi (Sep 3, 2008)

Should be easily sorted, with a blue 3m pad with ultra fine, just take your time on jewelling the finish, sounds to me the abrasives are to strong for the paint, plus the pad, i;m sure its technique related, but as this thread states its more aimed at harder paints, i;m sure there's a way around it, try the finishing disc with there finishing compound and see if this if this will improve the results, remember taking your time refining, no harsh speeds, slow movements with right pressure and excessing each time you do a section, get some proper light on the surface and see if the micro marring is remained, i would recommend cleaning the panel section afterwards to get rid of fillers and oils, gives you a better indication on the refinement stage....

This technique will work, just takes time buddie...


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## JakeWhite (Oct 14, 2011)

Trip just sent you a PM please reply asap


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