# Dodo Juice - Born to be Mild



## Epoch

With the summer coming up it's regular wash time so having found my new foam product of choice it's time to start playing with some shampoo :thumb:










The new maintenance shampoo from the Dodo, lovely colour and probably the best smelling shampoo i have come accross, obviously both of these features are, shall we say, pointless for the funtion it was designed but important never the less . It's also worth noting its very low viscosity much runnier than most shampoo's i have used, possibly with the exception of Megs Old Spice

Today's outing was to be a wash of my dad's car, The car in question last had Dodo Juice Blue Velvet applied at the end of October last year. My dad washes it every other weekend (or so) Which consists of a pre-rinse and some Megs Hyperwash and a ScMitt, but he never drys it (Epoch's instructions to reduce swirling). It's 2.5 years old now and isn't lookig too bad to be honest, few swirls etc but overal pretty good. I'd probably machine it but he's ordered a new one and is just waiting for that to arrive in a few months.

The condition today














































THe car was a bit too drty for a straight to mitt wash and although i want to test the shampoo i thought it fair to use it as i would normally.

So first up all the crud on the lower halves with CG Citrus Wash 10:1 prewash through a pressure sparyer










which dwells lovely










then after a few mins of soaking the Citrus wash onto the foaming which today was Super Snow foam and CG Maxi Suds, which i still have some to use up, through the Daddy lance










Five mins later it was rinsed off. You can see here the beading has almost gone, but since it was 7 months ago I applied the Blue Velvet I was actually really impressed :thumb:










So on with the Born to be Mild, I have read (or imagined i read) that the recommended dose was about 2 to 4 cap fulls in a bucket, a cap full is 7 ml so a general wash strength would be 14 to 28 ml in a bucket. I plumbed for 20ml in a 5 US gallon bucket of warm water.










Which after a swirl and agitate with the Schmitt produced some lovely suds










It says PH neutral on the bottle so out with the litmus paper










and you can't really argue with that

The car was washed Two Bucket Method (TBM) and Schmitt in stright lines front to back as usual. The foamy, sudsy, luby wash solution evident on the car










After the full car wash there was a huge amount of foam still in the wash and rinse bucket.










I tend to find with the TBM the wash bucket should always retain the suds as you are not introducing as many particulates however this much in the rinse bucket may indicate i had too much shampoo in the bucket, ill try 15ml next time i think

I rinsed the car off and then dried it with a Sonus Der Wonder towel.














































So to sum up

It looks good in the bottle!
It smells great!
It foams very well
It doesn't have as higher lubrisity feel of some shampoo's between the fingers but still good when mitting the car
It cleans the traffic film from the car during the mitt wash stage
It doesn't leave conditioning streaks, as it doesn't contain any
It rinses off nicely

All good and another winner from the Dodo

Also I appologise for the date on EVERY photo, they were taken on my mum's camera and i didn't this was switched on


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## Detail My Ride

You ********! I'm at this very minute writing a review. 

It is very good stuff, i'm hugely impressed with it. But thanks, I can go to bed now


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## -ROM-

Gaz W said:


> You ********! I'm at this very minute writing a review.
> 
> It is very good stuff, i'm hugely impressed with it. But thanks, I can go to bed now


a forum is about having more than one opinion...write your review!


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## Epoch

Gaz W said:


> You ********! I'm at this very minute writing a review.
> 
> It is very good stuff, i'm hugely impressed with it. But thanks, I can go to bed now





rmorgan84 said:


> a forum is about having more than one opinion...write your review!


:thumb:

Mr Morgan is right, get typing

Like school though don't copy mine just cause i finished first doesn't mean i'm right 

But i agree it's good stuff


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## Baracuda

From where can i order one ? 

They need to ship outside UK


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## Dave KG

I cannot help but notice this product's rather high price tag....

So, the $64000 question (as I know you have used both shampoos)... is it better than Z7, as it is nearly double the price?? Is it double the price better?

Very good review (as always :thumb. Be interested on your thoughts on comparison of the two, the Z7 is really impressing me at the moment but I struggle even at that to justify high prices on shampoos when Shampoo Plus is £15 for a gallon.


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## -ROM-

what strikes me as a little strange is with every other product, dodo have been very aggressive in their pricing, but the shampoo seems to be very expensive compared to other shampoos and when compared to the pricing structure of the rest of the range!


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## Baracuda

People will buy it just to try it out i guess (Just like me). The price is high indeed.


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## PJS

Good ingredients which do only good things, will cost a bit more - especially since Dodo aren't probably buying in sufficient quantity to make the price more competitive.
A lot of cheaper shampoos out there are bulked out with filler ingredients/bulking agents, which have no bearing on the performance of the active ingredients, but it does save money and make you think you're getting better value.


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## Dave KG

rmorgan84 said:


> what strikes me as a little strange is with every other product, dodo have been very aggressive in their pricing, but the shampoo seems to be very expensive compared to other shampoos and when compared to the pricing structure of the rest of the range!


Something which confuses me also... the waxes are competitively priced compared to many, though also more expensive than some but by no means crazily priced. The shampoo just seems overly expensive to me personally...



PJS said:


> Good ingredients which do only good things, will cost a bit more - especially since Dodo aren't probably buying in sufficient quantity to make the price more competitive.
> A lot of cheaper shampoos out there are bulked out with filler ingredients/bulking agents, which have no bearing on the performance of the active ingredients, but it does save money and make you think you're getting better value.


But in real world terms, with for example Shampoo Plus, I would be getting better value as I pay £15 for a gallon of that and £16 for 500ml of Born to be Mild. To get the required slickness in the wash solution to keep me happy and to keep my car swirl free (no luxury of foam, so I rely on the slickness of the wash solution, and I hate suds with a passion as wash solutions feel less slick when they have got a mountain of suds on them), I will get many more washes out of Shampoo Plus than Born to be Mild, whether SP is bulked up or not. And neither is really going to make a difference to looks at the end of the day, they are just shampoos after all.

I'm not in any way putting this product down, I'm just finding its pricing a little uncompetitive in today's market... The killer for me is Zaino Z7 is nearly half the price, and it is a superbly lubed and lovely to use shampoo that cleans effective and rinses very freely.


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## PJS

To be fair though, you're comparing the relative small buying power of Dodo, and trying to equate it to the giant that is Meguiar's, and even Zaino, whom will have greater buying power too.
I guess Dom will at some point come on and enlighten us as to where the money goes.
I'd take issue that shampoos are just shampoos - if they were, then there wouldn't really need to be so many with differing blends of the same basic formulations, colorants and fragrances aside.
Yes, they perform the same function, but just like LSPs, different brands have their own specific traits, which appeal to the users of them.


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## Bigpikle

looks good Jon, but I agree with the comments of many on price. i checked it out immediately but the amount used means cost/wash is MUCH higher than my 2 favourites DG901 for HUGE lube'd feel, and BH AW for water softening, value and being easy to transport 

I hope to see and try it first hand today, so lets see.... Will have to go some to beat the smell and feel of DG 901.

BTW - I get the same issue with foaming in the rinse bucket, when using both my normal shampoos. So much so that I cant tell which bucket is which, so have taped the rinse bucket with red masking tape all around the rim to avoid annoying cross-contamination


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## Epoch

So to answer my take on this will take a bit of background

Firstly

Dodo - £16.95- 500ml – 25 washes per bottle – 20ml per wash – 68p per wash
Zaino - £8.95 – 473ml – 12 washes per bottle – 39ml per wash – 75p per wash
Zym0l clear - £39.00 – 473ml- 30 washes per bottle – 15ml per wash – £1.30 per wash

So hopefully that answers the cost issue of the product it is comparable to Z7 in cost per use..

Now down to use.

I have at my disposal the following;

Megs Shampoo plus
Megs Hyper wash
Megs #62
Megs #00
Zaino Z7
Zym0l Clear
And now Dodo Born to be Mild

I should first explain my methods and the reason for so much shampoo

I use Megs Hyper Wash for wheels and aches as it works well and is very good value
I use Megs Shampoo plus for a general paint work wash when I am only drying following the wash as it feels super luby and safe during the wash process and it leaves a nice finish.
I use Megs #62 for when I am going to complete a step further during the wash process, explained below, because of its JUST clean function and it appears to leave the least of any conditioners behind and contains no silicone.
Megs #00 is for wet and dry lube although is a great shampoo too

I have two cars both with different usage and different LSP needs and protection.

The wife’s BMW is the ‘nauba baby, doesn’t do many miles and mainly suffers form being outside (until I get the garage finished!)
I tend to wash this, first with a pre-soak and then foam , with Megs #62 using the TBM. Once it’s rinsed I will then wash it over again with a bucket of warm water and Zym0l Clear as I like the finish this shampoo leaves. This double wash really gets the paint work clean. I then dry and hardly ever apply a QD. I have only applied Zym0l field glaze about 3 times and only once following a wash, the others were following a wax layer.

My Audi is the motorway mule and it’s sits by the train line all day so it has sealants applied due to there harder nature. 
This car is again pre soaked, foamed and then washed using the TBM and Shampoo plus and then dried, as it leaves behind a really nice finish. I used Z7 in place of the Megs Shampoo plus for the first time a few weeks ago and it’s a really great shampoo, well lubed and very sudsy and it again left a nice finish. I will be applying Zaino to the car in a few months am having to think about changing my wash practice and starting to use a QD, as I have heard and seen the effect of Z8 on the finish so my routine will alter to Z7 mitt wash, dry then Z6 or Z8.

For the BMW and the to be released Dodo QD I intend to follow the same change of routine moving to more of a QD following a wash (just playing with my detailing habits really). So I want to make sure the QD adheres to the paint’s surface properly.

So why all this waffle well for me the Dodo shampoo containing ONLY cleaning agents and NO conditioners fits perfectly as the "wash and leave clean" process ready for the application of a QD, or wax layer. It’s a slightly different product than I have seen anywhere else (most shampoo’s leave behind something to make the finish look brighter but may compromise the adhesion of a further product POSIBBLY IMHO).
The Dodo shampoo is never going to be as high VFM than some of the builk buy products from the mass producers, but if it’s comparable in cost to the big boy's and leaves a clean LSP only surface it has a USP that I needed and it will enable me to play with QD’s this year, if the Dodo pulls it’s slightly fastidious finger out!:wave:

Is it better than Z7, well i'd say it impressed me as much in use for lubricity, suds and foam. It will however be used for a different purpose so not really a comparable on finish (the Zaino probably adding some protection and the Dodo showing the wax layer)

Is all of the above far to anal and obsessive, you bet, but it’s what I enjoy the last 0.5% of finish is always the hardest to achieve .


And IMHO, yes Dave, the Dodo BTBM smells better than the Z7 and I love the smell of Z7 :lol:


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## Dave KG

Epoch said:


> So to answer my take on this will take a bit of background
> 
> Firstly
> 
> Dodo - £16.95- 500ml - 25 washes per bottle - 20ml per wash - 68p per wash
> Zaino - £8.95 - 473ml - 12 washes per bottle - 39ml per wash - 75p per wash
> Zym0l clear - £39.00 - 473ml- 30 washes per bottle - 15ml per wash - £1.30 per wash


Without the luxury of a foam though, and gunning for a super slick solution where I always find myself having to add more than the prescribed amount of shampoo, is 20ml enough?? It produces plenty of suds, but what is the slickness like in comparison to say Z7, or even Shampoo Plus?

Z7 is the only one where I find myself adding less than the said amount, and I'm running currently at about 15 washes from my bottle of it to get a wash solution at the level I would say is safe so this brings its price back down below that of the Dodo for me...

I'm not trying to pick holes here, I'm just as rmorgan points out, confused as to why this products isn't following the competitive nature pricing wise of the other Dodo products.


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## Jaygo

Epoch said:


> So to answer my take on this will take a bit of background .......................


One of our more interesting and useful posts.

I hope a few others follow your approach and give reasons why they prefer or recommend a particular product rather than simply saying - ABC works great for me or try XYZ you'll love it.

Some may differ with your views but provided reasons are given that's OK too.

Thank you - almost a mini review - more please.


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## Epoch

I think the pricing will need to be answered by Dom 

However the 20ml I put in was comparable to the Z7 wash i completed, but I tend to use between 60 and 90ml of Shampoo plus (Two or three squirts from the pump depenser) for super lubricity AND because it's cheap! Horses for courses

No hassle on the questioning lively debate is what makes life fun and pushes the users and manufacturers forward 

(Oh and the pricing table wasn't a snipe at it's cheaper as the difference is negligagble in real useage it was just to satisfy the actual cost per use is comparable at the recommended dilutio ratio's)


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## Epoch

Jaygo said:


> One of our more interesting and useful posts.
> 
> I hope a few others follow your approach and give reasons why they prefer or recommend a particular product rather than simply saying - ABC works great for me or try XYZ you'll love it.
> 
> Some may differ with your views but provided reasons are given that's OK too.
> 
> Thank you - almost a mini review - more please.


Thank you


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## PJS

A very enlightening explanation of your experiences and processes Epoch - well done, and thanks.


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## Dodo Factory

Thanks for the comments guys.

The answer comes in two parts as touched upon briefly already.

1) We are a small company hand making bespoke products. We can't buy the ingredients in volumes big companies do, or make them by the millions of gallons in big vats. This suits us in the 'boutique car wax' market where quality is far more important than volume or price, but it works against us when we produce something like a shampoo. It is like asking your designer wedding cake supplier to knock up some bread then complaining it costs more than Warburtons 

2) We use the highest quality ingredients we can get our hands on. One of my techs was telling me that shampoos typically contain 5-10% active cleaning ingredients, whereas ours (he approximated) could be as high as 50%. This is because of all the bulking and dilution that goes on. Our surfactants (for example) are extremely high quality and we could have used cheaper ones to keep the cost down. But we have always aimed at S and Z in terms of quality and our shampoo is not expensive in that league - indeed it is a bargain compared to Z Clear. Sure, you can buy a good shampoo for less money but it won't be a Dodo one, made by our guys to a bespoke recipe. If you want to buy another product, we are all for mixing and matching products within your detailing regime and actively promote free choice (we never say you MUST use this product with other products in our range etc). This is just something for our customers should they want it. We aren't going to hold off producing a staple car cleaning product just because it is uneconomical for us to do so or someone else has the market covered. It's another shampoo in a crowded market, but we hope its users and testers agree that it is actually a rather good one. From a production point of view we know it is good value, and we always try to offer good value in whatever we do, but in this case it is an expensive product of its type and the market may perceive it as a bit pricey. Sadly, on this occasion, it is just the way it goes. We hope enough people try and like it to see that it is a good little product


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## Epoch

Thanks Dom

As shown here it works for me, and when the QD gets released will be a useful part of the All Dodo finish


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## Bigpikle

thanks Dom - clearly a question of economics rather than branding then...

Have some to try now courtesy of Marc, so look forward to using it tomorrow :thumb: See you at the weekend rotaryfest :buffer:


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## drive 'n' shine

Going to go a bit off off topic

Now not everyone may agree with this, but i am a great believer in using the manufacturers shampoo when it comes to maintaining the finish from an LSP, a lot of manufacturers do develop their shampoos to help recharge/maintain the finish, and i'm hoping certain brands will be available in larger sizes.


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## Epoch

drive 'n' shine said:


> Going to go a bit off off topic
> 
> Now not everyone may agree with this, but i am a great believer in using the manufacturers shampoo when it comes to maintaining the finish from an LSP, a lot of manufacturers do develop their shampoos to help recharge/maintain the finish, and i'm hoping certain brands will be available in larger sizes.


Completly agree

Carlack Shampoo leaves something
Zaino Shampoo leaves something
***** Clear leaves something

However this particular Dodo variant is designed to just clean up the paint, i suspect there will be a deep cleanse variety or maybe a Carnauba top up at some point


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## Bigpikle

well I couldnt wait until tomorrow, so went out and washed the Saab....

wasnt expecting greatness, but after putting 4 capfuls in a huge CG bucket I was actually very impressed with the results  Initially I didnt think it measured up to the DG 901, as it didnt _feel_ nearly as lube'd, which is something I really appreciate in the 901 with a kind of thick and slightly oily feel on the skin, but in actual use there is certainly a very lubricating feel when you wipe the mitt over the paint. Result is a very well foaming, nicely lube'd shampoo with an amazing smell, which I know shouldnt really matter but it is SOOOO addictive and just smells so right when washing the car.

Rinses easily and leaves a good finish. Not the strongest I'm guessing as the name suggests, as there were some insect bits I didnt get off on the leading edge of the bonnet, but wont blame the shampoo for that.

My neighbour came out with his filthy black Suzuki SV650s, to give it a clean ahead of a boys run out tomorrow, so I volunteered the Dodo, and another very impressed punter. Worked very well on the bike, and a coat of Auto Balm later, the stealthy black machine was looking awesome 

I never thought I'd say this at the start, but this _could_ surpass DG901 as my no.1 maintenance shampoo, but sadly at this price I just cant justify it  While DG 901 is 2/3rd the price for almost 2x the quantity I wont be getting more, which is a shame as its a superb shampoo IMHO  2 large buckets and already the 250ml bottle has taken a significant hit....


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## Blazebro

I have one question, is this a better product than far cheaper alternatives (such as CG's Maxi Suds, DG 901), or is it a case of being starey eyed because it's new?

The argument of "It's exspensive because of buying power and we only use the best chemicals" really dosen't wash (get it?) with me. Serious Performance have released their own car wash costing a massive £3.95 for 500ml. Buying power will only bring down the cost so far, every manufacturer of chemicals has a bas which they can't go below and I would say that is well within the reach of Dodo. I'm quite sure Dodo has better bargaining power than Serious Performance IMO.


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## Bigpikle

Blazebro said:


> I have one question, is this a better product than far cheaper alternatives (such as CG's Maxi Suds, DG 901), or is it a case of being starey eyed because it's new?
> 
> The argument of "It's exspensive because of buying power and we only use the best chemicals" really dosen't wash (get it?) with me. Serious Performance have released their own car wash costing a massive £3.95 for 500ml. Buying power will only bring down the cost so far, every manufacturer of chemicals has a bas which they can't go below and I would say that is well within the reach of Dodo. I'm quite sure Dodo has better bargaining power than Serious Performance IMO.


read my post above - VERY comparable to 901 but not in value. I'll continue to buy 901....


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## m0bov

Z Car wash is £6 for 500ml, I considered this a very good shampoo but quite pricy but its from Halfords so no postage. BtbM is £17 for the same amount and then there's postage on top so you could be looking at £20!!!!!!!!!!!! Sorry, but that is a massive amount to pay. If it came down to £6 then I would try it.


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## m0bov

What's the cost of 901, I'd really like to try it. I Like Z wash cos of the suds and lube.


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## Baracuda

m0bov said:


> What's the cost of 901, I'd really like to try it. I Like Z wash cos of the suds and lube.


http://www.seriousperformance.co.uk/Products,69,toView_197.html :thumb:


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## m0bov

Arr, about the same as my Z Wash. Their own shampoo looks quite cheap and is also Ph balanced, might give that a try one day!


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## Bigpikle

901 is miles better than the Z stuff - thicker, better foaming and feels really good on the paint... :thumb:

901 is available in gallons and much better value.


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## Epoch

Glad you like it too Damon

It doesn't feel as luby between the fingers in the bucket, as say a strong wash of Shampoo plus but feels safe enough in use.

Agreed it's a killer smell

I sort of agree with the "it's new so it must be good" veneer that somethings appear to have however this for me is a good addition to the shampoo collection and it has a use in my intended super safe ultimate carnauba finish regime and that is something to for me to be smiling about 

It will never be a super volume for money shampoo, I bought some of the Tesco pink wheels shampoo for the guy whose ASTRA we did a few months ago (yes he is going to wash it) it cost me £2.50 for 500 ml, i'll give this a whirl too as i still bet the Shampoo plus is still a better value buy!


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## Epoch

Bigpikle said:


> 901 is miles better than the Z stuff - thicker, better foaming and feels really good on the paint... :thumb:
> 
> 901 is available in gallons and much better value.


OK OK i'll try this too :lol:

shheeesh i'll have more shampoo than waxes soon!


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## drive 'n' shine

Epoch said:


> OK OK i'll try this too :lol:
> 
> shheeesh i'll have more shampoo than waxes soon!


You wont be disappointed :thumb:


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## L200 Steve

m0bov said:


> Arr, about the same as my Z Wash. Their own shampoo looks quite cheap and is also Ph balanced, might give that a try one day!


This is another superb shampoo (the Serious Performance own brand), and leaves a really nice finish that sheets water superbly.

I'd use more of this if I didn't already have many gallons of other shampoo's.

Got to agree with Epoch though, as I too found the Dodo shampoo to be to my liking (once I'd found out that it was supposed to be a mild shampoo :lol

Same as someone else though, I too like to try and match my shampoo to the LSP that I'm using. Tending to do a first wash with something like either Shampoo Plus or Hyper Wash, then giving the vehicle a second wash with either Carlack shampoo (seems to add something to the Carlack finish) Z*mol or Zaino Z7 depending on the LSP.

A quick pat dry and the finish is normally restored.


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## kk1966

It would seem there is plenty of discussion and interest in BtbM and although it seems that it is agreed that it is another good product from the Dodo stable/bird cage there seems to be the feeling that the price is a little higher than people would have liked or expected from Dodo Juice which i feel is a fair point.

However, as Dom has previously outlined this is a product aimed to compete with the Z and SV counterparts and ml to £ it is still comparatively cheaper.

I personally think it is a great product that performs exactly as i want and expect from a maintenance shampoo. It cleans and yet keeps the wax layer intact. When you have completed a paint correction detail and applied the LSP whether it be Dodo or anything else, you find that road film, flies etc dont have the ability to cling so strongly to the car as an untreated one which is one of the reasons that the customer will have spent their initial investment of a few hundred pounds apart from the obvious visual aesthetics. When you then compare the price of the shampoo to the safe knowledge that they are continuing to look after their investment then £8.95 does seem rather negligible when it comes down to pence per wash IMHO. 

Just thought i would share my opinion from a commercial end user point of view. I hope the above makes sense and doesnt ramble on too much as putting thoughts into words is hard for a manual labourer


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## Dodo Factory

Blazebro said:


> The argument of "It's exspensive because of buying power and we only use the best chemicals" really dosen't wash (get it?) with me. Serious Performance have released their own car wash costing a massive £3.95 for 500ml. Buying power will only bring down the cost so far, every manufacturer of chemicals has a bas which they can't go below and I would say that is well within the reach of Dodo. I'm quite sure Dodo has better bargaining power than Serious Performance IMO.


An interesting point but ultimately flawed 

Basically, Alex doesn't make the shampoo himself but sources it. There's a big difference. I could source a shampoo - even a very nice shampoo - for far less money that what it costs for us to devise and manufacture a bespoke shampoo. But it wouldn't be our own.

To use the Warbutons analogy I used previously, it would be like Warbutons making loaves for someone else and letting them use their own wrappers. We probably have as much purchasing power as Serious Performance, maybe more (although Alex is a master deal maker, LOL) but our main problem is that we make these products ourselves in small quantities to a unique recipe.

Dodo Juice Born to be Mild is an in-house development. It ain't cheap to do and we haven't used cheap ingredients. We could have made a cheaper shampoo but we didn't. Maybe some of the active ingredients are going to waste in an average wash, but we're glad they're in there. It's over-specified, over-engineered and overly-nice smelling with an overly-stupid name, which is I suppose what we're happy with at the moment


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## Blazebro

I totally understand where your coming from. However I question where this sits in the market place though. Everyman and his dog has a shampoo at the moment and most are less than half the price. 

It seems as though your trying to go away from you original fan base and make Dodo more of a niche product. I always viewed Dodo as a vibrant young brand with prices at the top end of mass market with ingenius quirky products, now it seems your looking to compete with Zym0l and Swissvax and alienate your original fanbase.

If that is the case I think it's a sad day for all.


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## Dodo Factory

That certainly isn't our aim.

We are talking about an 8.95 GBP shampoo not a 10,000 GBP wax in a fancy container with/without a golden spoon - I hardly think we can be accused of selling out just yet 

Z and S are competitors but not where we want to be, so have no fear for the long term. We will continue to do things the dodo way, but where price and quality clash, quality will be the winner. We will also bring out bespoke recipes just for the heck of it, even if this means higher prices. We like to fiddle, even if just for our own education, entertainment or amusement.


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## -ROM-

I understand dom's explination, but what puzzles me is how these issues weren't a factor with the dodo waxes. i.e. they were able to make a product that punched well above its price tag and competed with waxes 5 times the price.

Yet this combination of excellent performance with comparatively low prices seems to have eluded dodo with the shampoo.


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## Jaygo

Dodo Factory said:


> ...........We like to fiddle, even if just for our own education, entertainment or amusement.


I hope, and if I was religious I would pray, that you survive and prosper.


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## Dodo Factory

I explained this before (maybe on another thread)... we are well placed to produce high quality waxes, polishes and shampoos. But the disparate price points mean we will be uncompetitive with the super cheap stuff and amazingly good value with the mega expensive stuff.

The large companies find it difficult the other way around - they can make things nice and cheaply but can't afford to throw in the expensive ingredients in the proportions we do in the upper range products, or turnaround new recipes so quickly.

It's just a factor of our size. It's like expecting Morgan sportscars to come up with a hatchback for the same cost as a Fiesta. Our development and production costs mean our lower end products will always be relatively expensive.


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## -ROM-

hmmm, well i think i'm gonna have to try some and make my own mind up, for less than a tenner i haven't got much to lose and could find that when taking in to account how little is required to get a nice slick mix and the finish it leaves the slightly higher price is justified.

On the other hand i could find that it performs no better than shampoo plus. I'll just have to wait until i give it a try before passing final judgement!

also maybe there will be a sufficient discount when buying the 500ml and 1000ml bottles to make the purchase more justifiable!


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## PJS

I don't understand this ganging up mentality on one of the more upfront business members. 
Just what is the problem some of you have with this product's price?
Is it a case of you've ASSUMED because it's from Dodo, then just like their entry level waxes, the shampoo would be as cheap as chips too?
What exactly is it that you can't quite grasp about Dodo's recent trend to concentrate on ultimate quality products - DW, Sn, and now BTBM?
Here's a new company taking the 'fight' to Z and Swiss, and proving more than capable of doing so, but yet somehow getting flak for not being as cheap as you'd like.
Last time I checked, Dodo Juice existed as a business, not a charity, and therefore are expected and entitled to generate profits - is something you've forgotten due to having Dom post on here regularly like any other member?

For those of you hard of reading - the product is full of quality ingredients which cost more than lesser quality ones do, or less of them.
If you really want to justify this shampoo to yourselves, then do as other brands do - water it down and make it go further.
It's no different to BH AW, which is high quality, cost the same with an extra 50mls more, yet anyone who's tried it, has barely a bad word to say about it. And I'll bet BH are buying their ingredients in at a better price than Dodo is - hence the extra 50mls perhaps?
Bottom line, you seem to have all built yourselves up to wanting the Dodo shampoo when it was launched, but now it's price is different from what you expected or imagined it to be, you're up in arms.
There's plenty of cost effective shampoos on the market - if they suit your budget, let alone meet your performance requirements, then the existence of BTBM is inconsequential and shouldn't be causing you to get your knickers flapping!

I'm sorry guys, but you've made a complete mountain out of a molehill, and probably left a sour taste in Dom's mouth, given the constant barrage of "overpriced" remarks, even after having it explained to you short of divulging the formula.
Bottom line, if it's too rich for your blood - tough or suck it up, just stop whinging about it's perceived value and price.


----------



## Epoch

If it's any consiquence it REALLY does smell nice 

I do think the lack of any conditioners or leave behind is one of the best features and i think it's a fairly unique product in this field.


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## Bigpikle

Phil

I dont think it is ganging up on Dom or Dodo in any way, its just feedback and questions regarding a new product. Ganging up would have been the slagging off like AG HD Wax got before 99% of people had tried or seen it  All of us who have tried it in this thread have expressed VERY positive feedback about how well it actually performs, but you cant leave price out of the equation, otherwise every review of Vintage, Royale etc would just say "buy it as its great stuff"...

I do think it is fair to raise the question about 'value' as we all do it day in day out on other products in different categories here, be it wax, sealant, sponges etc. Value is a personal decision, that will vary by user and their circumstances. As we're into lots of comparisons here, my £500 luggage is good value to me as it travels round the world most weeks and does its job of keeping my belongings safely cosseted despite Italian baggage handlers dropping it off the back of lorries in the airport etc, but it wouldnt be particularly good value to me if I only used it for a 1 week trip to Tenerife each winter... 

This is also a forum for detailing product discussion, and I think that is what is going on here. Dom is open and gracious enough to respond to the comments and explain his position and continue to educate us about what the Dodo brand is all about and how he makes decisions about his products. :thumb: for doing that and making himself open for questions on all of that 

Just my 2p worth... and of course the old saying holds true "there will be as many opinions on a product as there are detailers using it" :lol:


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## kk1966

Epoch said:


> If it's any consiquence it REALLY does smell nice


And it also does what its supposed to really really well:thumb:

From my own point of view...........

................its less than a tenner


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## rubbishboy

Blazebro said:


> Everyman and his dog has a shampoo at the moment and most are less than half the price.


There are a few chemical blenders around that will make a shampoo for you. They probably have a base recipe that all the shampoo they make consists of, add a different colour and smell, water it down a bit or bulk it out with a thickner and hey presto a different product.

The point I'm making here is that everyman and his dog can have a shampoo if they want, but they will be very similar (the same in some cases). But as Dom has already said BTBM is a bespoke recipe, made in small amounts, made with high quality ingredients, made with more active ingredients, no one elses shampoo is or will be the same as BTBM.


----------



## Mixman

Well I've ordered some and can't wait to use it. I don't mind the price at all as I know I will be getting quality, just like all my other DoDo products :thumb:


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## Epoch

Mixman said:


> Well I've ordered some and can't wait to use it. I don't mind the price at all as I know I will be getting quality, just like all my other DoDo products :thumb:


It will be good to hear your views please post up any findings :thumb:


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## Mixman

Epoch said:


> It will be good to hear your views please post up any findings :thumb:


OK, I will :thumb:

I tend to post my findings/detailing in my regular, non-detailing forum, as, generally, what the pros on here do make me embarassed to post the majority of my efforts and findings :lol:


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## Epoch

Mixman said:


> OK, I will :thumb:
> 
> I tend to post my findings/detailing in my regular, non-detailing forum, as, generally, what the pros on here do make me embarassed to post the majority of my efforts and findings :lol:


I disagree, but then that's my opinion, everybody's opinion is valid and should be represented that's the beauty of a forum like this. You get to learn from the pro's and share your thoughts with others.


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## Mixman

Epoch said:


> I disagree, but then that's my opinion, everybody's opinion is valid and should be represented that's the beauty of a forum like this. You get to learn from the pro's and share your thoughts with others.


Don't get me wrong, I've posted a detail I did on my Zafira which I thought was really good. I got good responses as well. But just having the 1 vehicle, the detailing products I buy, although number quite a lot now, I have generally bought on other peoples findings so the reviews have been done already.

Being the novice I tend not to get any products that are 'Brand New' or 'Pre-issue' so as a novice I haven't got the kudos to be sent anything to try before release. I'm not complaining though, that's the way of the world and credit to the pros' deserving of any 'Freebies' or product 'Evaluations'


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## Epoch

Fair point BUT particularly with this shampoo, if you find it OK but too expensive that is of huge value to others.

Take this post for example, i had a shampoo I wanted to try, but still went through detailing the pre-soak and foam as for me these two stages are an integral part to how I attempt to maintain the car finish.

Anybody new to the processes of "safer wash practice" reading this i hope will understand there is a safer method to use and that good products can help rather than great products that do it all for you.

The processes on this site are more important to learn than buying the products.

Sorrry i appear to have become Alf Garnet or Victor Meldrew i will stop now


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## Mixman

Epoch said:


> Sorrry i appear to have become Alf Garnet or Victor Meldrew i will stop now


Not at all :thumb:

Thanks for making me feel 'Encouraged' to post more :detailer:


----------



## Dave KG

PJS said:


> I don't understand this ganging up mentality on one of the more upfront business members.
> Just what is the problem some of you have with this product's price?
> Is it a case of you've ASSUMED because it's from Dodo, then just like their entry level waxes, the shampoo would be as cheap as chips too?
> What exactly is it that you can't quite grasp about Dodo's recent trend to concentrate on ultimate quality products - DW, Sn, and now BTBM?
> Here's a new company taking the 'fight' to Z and Swiss, and proving more than capable of doing so, but yet somehow getting flak for not being as cheap as you'd like.
> Last time I checked, Dodo Juice existed as a business, not a charity, and therefore are expected and entitled to generate profits - is something you've forgotten due to having Dom post on here regularly like any other member?
> 
> For those of you hard of reading - the product is full of quality ingredients which cost more than lesser quality ones do, or less of them.
> If you really want to justify this shampoo to yourselves, then do as other brands do - water it down and make it go further.
> It's no different to BH AW, which is high quality, cost the same with an extra 50mls more, yet anyone who's tried it, has barely a bad word to say about it. And I'll bet BH are buying their ingredients in at a better price than Dodo is - hence the extra 50mls perhaps?
> Bottom line, you seem to have all built yourselves up to wanting the Dodo shampoo when it was launched, but now it's price is different from what you expected or imagined it to be, you're up in arms.
> There's plenty of cost effective shampoos on the market - if they suit your budget, let alone meet your performance requirements, then the existence of BTBM is inconsequential and shouldn't be causing you to get your knickers flapping!
> 
> I'm sorry guys, but you've made a complete mountain out of a molehill, and probably left a sour taste in Dom's mouth, given the constant barrage of "overpriced" remarks, even after having it explained to you short of divulging the formula.
> Bottom line, if it's too rich for your blood - tough or suck it up, just stop whinging about it's perceived value and price.


While I openly see your point here, the point of my posts were not whinging about the high price from a personal stand point - I wouldn't have bought BTBM in any case as it wont fit into my current detailing regime for my personal car which has gone all-Zaino for my own testing purposes and because they have a range which has impressed me above all other, including the "mighty" *****, and it is too expensive just to buy to play with - but then, so are most things just to play with if you have no intention of using them further.

The point of my original posts, which Dom has very eloquently answered was to question why the shampoo was uncompetitively priced in the market its being placed into... Dom has answered my questions and points by citing the ingredients used and my posts follow this highlight my understanding of these costs. However, I stand by my points that this has to be evaluated from a performance perspective - you can throw as many expensive ingredients as you like into a product but if it doesn't outperform the less expensive ones then that is a waste of money on the front of both the manufacturer and the buyer IMHO. That is to say, if Meguiars Shampoo Plus does an excellent job (and lets not beat about the bush, it does), and Dodo BTBM does little better in the real world terms, what was the point in the extra money?? This is how it will be viewed from many purchasers points of view. Believe me, this is the same in the science research community - if I spend hundreds of thousands developing a spectrometer capable slightly better sensitivity by spending hundreds of thousands developing bespoke components, no buyer will be interested if they can get an off the shelf product with slightly less performance (and I mean slightly here, as the difference between any shampoo is at the end of the day, pretty damn slight) for a couple of hundred quid. This is one perception of value for money - does the product outperform its cheaper rivals to the point where the extra buying cost was worth it?

The other perception of value is quite rightly if you spend lots making the product, it should be sold to represent that and I dont doubt this is exactly what Dodo Juice have done and credit to them - they will have a market for those who analyse value in this way... Perhaps I am harder on things because of my day to day work where value of a product is measured not on what goes into making it, but its overall performance. Which is where I will judge a product, and many others will judge it too.

I am glad that Dom has explained publicly the reasons for the high price as you could envisage as an end user the product not really giving much over its much cheaper rival and you could be forgiven for asking where your money went. Dom has very well explained where it has gone, and again this is very much a credit to him. But you have to accept the other points of view that will exist on the forum as well, and the different ways people will perceive value for money in a product. Clearly you and I differ here, which is great cause if you were exactly the same as me only taller and more handsome, my better half would have you instead! :lol::lol: But seriously, I dont think people are making a mountain out of a molehill here, certainly not from my own personal stand point - I have just put my neck out and highlighted my personal concerns with a product as I see them and as I judge them which I am perfectly entitled to do. 

I'm never backwards about being forward about my thoughts and opinions on products - read my thoughts on ***** Clear and you will see that I am certainly not in anyway singling out BTBM and having a go for any reason. Simply, I am airing a concern I have that this product is rather highly priced for the market it is enterring into.

Of course, another way of looking at it could be to draw an analogy with the car industry which I personally dont agree with, but its also a relevant view point that others may share... ***** and Swissvax are established expensive players - they have an established badge and name, and are charging highly partly because of this: a bit like Mercedes. Meguiars are established good quality products for your every day punter, good value for money at the heart of the brand: Ford. Where do Dodo want to fit in? Their waxes lead you down the line of perhaps VW... punching a little above the rest and taking stab into the luxury market, but this shampoo is lining it up as BMW - but without having truly established itself in the wider (as in outside DW) community yet. Its a poor way of looking at it IMHO, but this is the view that some will take so it is a relevant consideration - as of course is my personal stand point which will also be shared by some.


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## Mixman

That's what I like to see. Proper discussion put very nicely.


----------



## quattrogmbh

I may be missing something, and hope someone will correct me...

The benefit of a maintenance shampoo in my opinion is that it has high lubricity to prevent entrapped dirt causing marring along with Low Detergent content and PH neutrality to prevent it stripping LSP.

In this example, its the prefoam and degrease step thats confusing me - Wouldnt that have already achieved the same cleaning effect, (albeit maybe slight more harshly) than the mild Dodo product? Is the Dodo Shampoo adding something back in again?


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## Dave KG

quattrogmbh said:


> I may be missing something, and hope someone will correct me...
> 
> The benefit of a maintenance shampoo in my opinion is that it has high lubricity to prevent entrapped dirt causing marring along with Low Detergent content and PH neutrality to prevent it stripping LSP.
> 
> In this example, its the prefoam and degrease step thats confusing me - Wouldnt that have already achieved the same cleaning effect, (albeit maybe slight more harshly) than the mild Dodo product? Is the Dodo Shampoo adding something back in again?


The prefoaming and degrease step till be to remove the majority of dirt before the two bucket wash to make the two bucket wash a safer one... The actualy mitt wash with the BTBM is removing the last of the dirtand finally cleaning the car. From my reading on BTBM, it has nothing to offer the finish from a perspective of adding anything, so its simply a cleaning product for maintenance... It could be used on its own, but you'd have to be more careful with your mitt wash to avoid marring. It can be done without a pre-foam, my car is mobile proof of that as I dont even have a hosepipe at home, so its watering cans all the way but to achieve it requires a very well lubed formula and a gentle and careful mitt wash technique.


----------



## Jaygo

From Dodo’s point of view perhaps it’s a question of sticking a toe in the water and seeing what happens.

I have a growing respect and admiration for Dodo and their refreshingly ‘different’ approach to that of much of the business community.

We seem to be pre-judging the outcome although the concerns regarding the commercial success of this particular product may be well founded.

I can afford to try it and since it seems to be one of the few shampoos which leaves a clean surface behind I anticipate having it in my collection for the foreseeable future.
The high quality ingredients also appeal to me and I’m prepared to indulge myself at times.

If Dodo finds that it isn’t financially viable to keep producing it then so be it.
I suspect they are more than shrewd enough to have taken that possibility into account and will survive the experience.

Perhaps we should be grateful that we have Dodo around to dabble in the way they do.

Success shouldn’t be measured purely in financial terms.
If you can do something well, earn a living, enjoy yourself in the process and please a few people along the way then that’s fine by me.

You may stumble every now and then, not necessarily on this occasion, but they will be honourable scars.

I for one will continue to enjoy their ‘company’.


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## Epoch

quattrogmbh said:


> I may be missing something, and hope someone will correct me...
> 
> The benefit of a maintenance shampoo in my opinion is that it has high lubricity to prevent entrapped dirt causing marring along with Low Detergent content and PH neutrality to prevent it stripping LSP.
> 
> In this example, its the prefoam and degrease step thats confusing me - Wouldnt that have already achieved the same cleaning effect, (albeit maybe slight more harshly) than the mild Dodo product? Is the Dodo Shampoo adding something back in again?





Dave KG said:


> The prefoaming and degrease step till be to remove the majority of dirt before the two bucket wash to make the two bucket wash a safer one... The actualy mitt wash with the BTBM is removing the last of the dirtand finally cleaning the car. From my reading on BTBM, it has nothing to offer the finish from a perspective of adding anything, so its simply a cleaning product for maintenance... It could be used on its own, but you'd have to be more careful with your mitt wash to avoid marring. It can be done without a pre-foam, my car is mobile proof of that as I dont even have a hosepipe at home, so its watering cans all the way but to achieve it requires a very well lubed formula and a gentle and careful mitt wash technique.


Agreed with Dave, I can and do foam at least as i find it helps speed the process up.

The pre-soak may be quite harsh at the concentration used in this example, but it's used mainly for softening the stuck on mud and only applied to those areas, i could pre-rinse with the PW however the foam doesn't stick as well if the car is wet all over.

The foam spray is fairly mild (also measuring 6.5 to 7 on the PH scale) so will not be a problem.

Both of the above are done using cold water, the mitt wash contains warm water which activates the shampoo solution further increasing it's ability to clean.


----------



## -ROM-

PJS said:


> I don't understand this ganging up mentality on one of the more upfront business members.
> Just what is the problem some of you have with this product's price?
> Is it a case of you've ASSUMED because it's from Dodo, then just like their entry level waxes, the shampoo would be as cheap as chips too?
> What exactly is it that you can't quite grasp about Dodo's recent trend to concentrate on ultimate quality products - DW, Sn, and now BTBM?
> Here's a new company taking the 'fight' to Z and Swiss, and proving more than capable of doing so, but yet somehow getting flak for not being as cheap as you'd like.
> Last time I checked, Dodo Juice existed as a business, not a charity, and therefore are expected and entitled to generate profits - is something you've forgotten due to having Dom post on here regularly like any other member?
> 
> For those of you hard of reading - the product is full of quality ingredients which cost more than lesser quality ones do, or less of them.
> If you really want to justify this shampoo to yourselves, then do as other brands do - water it down and make it go further.
> It's no different to BH AW, which is high quality, cost the same with an extra 50mls more, yet anyone who's tried it, has barely a bad word to say about it. And I'll bet BH are buying their ingredients in at a better price than Dodo is - hence the extra 50mls perhaps?
> Bottom line, you seem to have all built yourselves up to wanting the Dodo shampoo when it was launched, but now it's price is different from what you expected or imagined it to be, you're up in arms.
> There's plenty of cost effective shampoos on the market - if they suit your budget, let alone meet your performance requirements, then the existence of BTBM is inconsequential and shouldn't be causing you to get your knickers flapping!
> 
> I'm sorry guys, but you've made a complete mountain out of a molehill, and probably left a sour taste in Dom's mouth, given the constant barrage of "overpriced" remarks, even after having it explained to you short of divulging the formula.
> Bottom line, if it's too rich for your blood - tough or suck it up, just stop whinging about it's perceived value and price.


No one is ganging up on anyone! All that is happening here is opinions are being exchanged in a polite and constructive manner!

It is what a forum is all about, and from a business point of view it is invaluable for dodo to have such a focussed and relevant sample of people giving feedback on his products. Do you have any idea how much Dodo would have had to pay to get such feedback on all their products if DW didn't exist???

I have tried all sorts of shampoo such as, ***** autowash, ***** clear, Megs Hyperwash, Megs gold class, AG Bodywork shampoo, + more. All i can say is all of them required more than the recommended amount to get a slick mixture and the performance difference was marginal at best. I think a lot of people have had the same experience and thus why these questions are being asked as to the value of BTBM.


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## Dodo Factory

Thanks to all, and I mean all, for the posts  I never feel ganged up on or have had a nasty taste in my mouth, even though I did nibble some Flat Earth for a laugh. It's quite nutty and not that great, but there you go.

We will always encourage active debate and never shirk from challenging comments or tough questions. The answers may not appease everyone - value is subjective andf Dave KG is right to ask that if a product can do a similar job for less money then is it required - but that's what a free market is for. We're not in the business of creating 'me-too' products and haven't done yet (in our opinion). But we need a full range to bring the battle to Z and S, and Megs and AG and we will create it. If there is some overlap or product irrelevance that is the small sacrifice to pay for a comprehensive range. Overall, it should be worth it. For you as well as for us.

As for VW or BMW... that's a good one. Maybe VW more than BMW but then a Golf isn't cheap these days is it


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## tmclssns

I haven't read all the comments (seven pages already!) but I look at this from the same angle as many people look at detailing. "Why would I pay lots of money to get my car shiny when it is clean and shiny for a few pounds at the automated car wash?"

This is somewhat the same question. Mass production, big markets, etc. always mean lower prices (and all too often, lower quality as well). It's possible some shampoos are less expensive with added shine ingredients but is that the task of a shampoo? Last time I checked the only thing it had to do is clean. This shampoo does that. No doubt it's a great product (haven't used it yet but I can only imagine it lives up to the high standard of the other products in the Dodo range). If you find it too expensive, don't buy it. If you find S or Z too expensive, don't buy it.

Like Mike Phillips of Meguiars USA says all the time "find a method / product that works for you and use it often". If you've already dialed in your system, keep with your habits. If you like to experiment, mix things up - give it a try and then form your opinion.


----------



## glyn waxmaster

Like Epoch i love the stuff, i tried it very kindly on testing from Dom a while ago and the smell, lather and finish were all spot on.
Yet another great product from Dodo. Looking forward to mine arriving in the next couple of days.
Bring on a quick detailer


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## PJS

Interesting to note the lack of posts now "complaining" about the price of BTBM - seems my reality check has taken hold.
Good! Maybe now we can actually get on with discussing the performance of the product irrespective of where it has plonked itself down in the marketplace.

Mind you, I really shouldn't be that surprised since AG's HD Wax got similar treatment prior to its launch - same mentality being used there? Get used to seeing a brand trade at a certain level, and when they introduce something that goes against the grain, there's a certain amount of consternation over their reason to do so.

Here's hoping from here on in, further discussions of BTBM revolves around how well it does the job it's been designed to.


----------



## -ROM-

PJS said:


> *Interesting to note the lack of posts now "complaining" about the price of BTBM - seems my reality check has taken hold.
> Good!.* Maybe now we can actually get on with discussing the performance of the product irrespective of where it has plonked itself down in the marketplace
> 
> Mind you, I really shouldn't be that surprised since AG's HD Wax got similar treatment prior to its launch - same mentality being used there? Get used to seeing a brand trade at a certain level, and when they introduce something that goes against the grain, there's a certain amount of consternation over their reason to do so.
> 
> Here's hoping from here on in, further discussions of BTBM revolves around how well it does the job it's been designed to.


I think you've got an inflated idea of your own importance, the thread has simply run its natural course and not much more can be discussed. It is quite arrogant to think that on a forum where you are a relative newbie people have stopped posting simply because Lord PJS has spoken!


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## PJS

Call it what you will, but the continual bleating about BTBM's price seems to have ceased since I posted, which is good, since the bigger picture can now be looked at.

An element of tongue-in-cheek in the words you've chosen to highlight has failed to be realised - but irrespective, I'm just glad to see the end of it since no-one seemed to be able to take on board the explanation provided by DF in this, and one or two other threads about it.
That's why I spoke up and out at the ludicrousy of it, especially when Epoch has demonstrated it falls in around Zaino Z-7 level, per wash, and much less than Zymöl's Bathe.
It comes across as a number have taken objection to the fact Dodo have chosen to market a quality foremost version rather than a bargain basement one, and are feeling aggrieved at that.
To me, THAT is arrogance, and on a much grander scale than my post above.
Why should it be automatically assumed Dodo's first shampoo was going to be cheap and cheerful, like their regular waxes?
That's what I can't get my head around - the price is the price, end of story, and no amount of harping on about it is going to suddenly find Dodo Juice magically dropping it 20% to appease a baying number of members.

In case you've not quite cottoned on from some of my other postings here - I'm not here to earn brownie points or some other such irrelevance. In fact, I call a spade, a spade, and don't pussyfoot around when I strongly disagree with a wider held view.
I'm vocal, and certainly not backwards in coming forwards - so if that's your definition of arrogance, then I guess I'm arrogant, but I tend to view it as strength of character and belief in my convictions.


As for any suggestion or hint of self importance - your estimation, certainly not mine!
I don't frequent any of the forums I visit with any notion of being anything other than helpful, where I'm able to be.
Some people may get ideas above their station in life or a delusions of grandeur by being "looked up to", but I'm not one of those types. I'm quite contented with the status quo.

In regard to this "newbie" tag you fondly label me as, of late - any chance of actually clarifying what in God's name that has to do with anything?
Are you implying I'm incapable of something or other? If so, then what exactly?
How does my lowly status (obviously in your eyes) have a bearing on my expressed opinions?
Perhaps there's a fundamental forum rule I've overlooked? If so, perhaps you be so kind as to point it out to me for further reading, and adherence.



Apologies Epoch for this rather ugly OT element your thread has veered off on - it wasn't intended to be as such.


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## br3n

Having read the majority of this thread, I have to say im still hugely impressed with the dodo brand/dom as every question has been answered with a good answer, it happens too often where a company will simply dance around the questions and never really answer anything so a credit to you.. I am again, hugely impressed with the one dodo wax ive used (purple haze) and would definatly like to expand my collection, however I dont have the founds to do this (poor student ) and as a result I will be buying shampoo plus, this or hyperwash has been on my shopping list for some time.


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## tmclssns

I find it interesting - why do people go continously off topic? It's the same on story on every single board I've been. This was supposed to be about a review of a new product, how it performs, etc. Not a price discussion (if you want to do so, you're welcome to open a different topic for that), not a 'who knows best' thing, etc. Just leave all your egos at home and talk about the one thing we all share and love: detailing!

sorry for my off topic.. :wall:


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## Epoch

I actually DO think that price is a reviewable factor of a product 

So costing, value and price are not really off topic in this post


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## Dave KG

Tom Claessens said:


> I find it interesting - why do people go continously off topic? It's the same on story on every single board I've been. This was supposed to be about a review of a new product, how it performs, etc. Not a price discussion (if you want to do so, you're welcome to open a different topic for that), not a 'who knows best' thing, etc. Just leave all your egos at home and talk about the one thing we all share and love: detailing!
> 
> sorry for my off topic.. :wall:


I agree with Epoch, the price is a key factor to a product and its the main reason for my initial posts citing my points about it, which have also been addressed by Dom which I personally think have added value to the knowledge about the product... Its not off-topic, rather a highly relevant consideration which has been addressed  Nothing to do with egos, just an open and honest opinion and question about a factor of the product, which as been well answered by the manufacturer.


----------



## Mixman

Dave KG said:


> I agree with Epoch, the price is a key factor to a product and its the main reason for my initial posts citing my points about it, which have also been addressed by Dom which I personally think have added value to the knowledge about the product... Its not off-topic, rather a highly relevant consideration which has been addressed  Nothing to do with egos, just an open and honest opinion and question about a factor of the product, which as been well answered by the manufacturer.


Agreed 100%


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## Epoch

You can almost feel the love in this post now 

EDIT: I MAY HAVE BEEN A LITTLE HASTY


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## tmclssns

Epoch said:


> I actually DO think that price is a reviewable factor of a product


My problem with price reviews is that most of us have nothing to relate it. We suspect that a car wash shampoo should be "cheap" as it's a product we use often and therefor want the best deal. Or that it should be priced according to the markets.. why? Maybe they have to put a lot more research in creating a shampoo that's not just another one in the already saturated market, but creating a wax might be easier to differentiate?

As already pointed out, Dodo is a small company - they don't have the same budget like Megs., Z or Sv. We have no idea about the costs of making a (dodo claimed) bespoke recipe for a car wash, stocking costs, base product costs, packaging costs, etc. So it's a bit "easy" to say "you're expensive because brand A offers a car wash for £££ which is a lot cheaper".

I like Car Bathe for instance but think it's "overpriced" because it doesn't give me better results than another shampoo I'm using. So I might find it overpriced, but it's not in my right to say that it's generally overpriced - as production costs might be totally different from the other shampoo. If I know the process of creating such a product, I might have to "review" my opinion and maybe the Bathe becomes "cheap" if looked at from another perspective. Like Dodo explained, it's difficult to compete on the low end market for making a product in limited quantities, compared to the high end range of products.

Anyway - their market is not the one of Megs (imo from what I've read), etc but more the high end sector like Sv and Z, where their waxes are cheap and their shampoo is still among the cheapest.

@Dave: ego was surely not about you


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## -ROM-

Tom Claessens said:


> My problem with price reviews is that most of us have nothing to relate it


Of course we ahve something to relate it to. The price of all the other shampoos mentioned in this thread!


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## tmclssns

rmorgan84 said:


> Of course we ahve something to relate it to. The price of all the other shampoos mentioned in this thread!


Of course but I mean we know nothing about the costs the company is making to create such a shampoo.. Look Meguiars products in Belgium are the US prices x 3. Of course it's easy to say it's pure rip off on customers. But taking into consideration: shipping, stocking, profit of importer, etc. then it's not so unlogical to see the prices being a lot higher.


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## Epoch

I bought Z Vintage

I love it really like it, but it's stupidly expensive

I have the right to say that as it's my opinion

If you find the SV car bathe good but too expensive that is fair too

I think the start of this thread implied that the product was miss aimed in the market place but that has been cleared up

Dodo is all about quality over name and their products are not about price points but more about all out quality.


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## L200 Steve

I've got a Metabo rotary, DFT PTG, a couple of megs pads and a few bottles of polish - Total cost to polish my car once a year only - £????

I've got choice of LSP, either HD Cleanse and Vintage, or the full Zaino package, ZFX, Z2 Z6, Z8 etc - I might use these twice a year. Total cost for LSP = £???

Shampoo & a wash mitt - Now if I get this bit right, then I can seriously save on the above two. If I'm not marring my paint by using a poor shampoo, then I'm not having to polish.

If I'm not using too strong a wash detergent in the form of the shampoo, then I'm not constantly having to replace my LSP due to washing it away.

The price of a bottle shampoo therefore is pretty unimportant to me, as it is nothing compared to what the cost of polishing or replacing the LSP would be.


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## Bigpikle

of course price needs to be discussed as part of any product review etc. Its just that we all make our own decision about what is value... 

Steve's view of value above may differ from mine, Jon's or anyone else's opinion of the value of a shampoo, but it has a place in a review. In a recent thread the 'current bubble of publicity' about Zaino was put down in some respect to the recent price reduction, so making it 'better value' so clearly it is an important factor in discussing and choosing products....

now, must think of a decent detailing song title so I can win some more Dodo shampoo and therefore make it even better value..... :lol:


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## Epoch

I've just been out to wash the BMW off ready for tomorrow and given it a foam and Dodo wash.

My thoughts have now moved on the actual cleaning ability of BTBM.

Following a foaming session you can usually get the car particlate free (almost) and only really the traffic film layer remains.

The Dodo shampoo whilst still being really good in the wash process removes more muck and more efficienty than anything else i have washed with. I'll explain what i mean and that bold statement.

Following a foam wash the beading, particularly to flat surfaces is usually compromised by the film remaining on the vehicle, a wash removes this and restores greater beading but it's only following a rinse and dry that this fully returns in my findings (when the car gets wet again). Tonight however the Dodo wash rinsed very freely and the beading was really impressive whilst rinsing this and the usual grease etc from the windscreen being more thouroughly removed leads me to conclude the Dodo wash has far superior cleaning to my normal shampoo array. This is a good thing obviously but has impressed me further with the BTBM

Thanks for listening to my ramblings but i was surprised tonight and that i thought was worth mentioning


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## Ross

m0bov said:


> Z Car wash is £6 for 500ml, I considered this a very good shampoo but quite pricy but its from Halfords so no postage. BtbM is £17 for the same amount and then there's postage on top so you could be looking at £20!!!!!!!!!!!! Sorry, but that is a massive amount to pay. If it came down to £6 then I would try it.


I agree its far too much you can get a gallon of shampoo plus for less


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## Dodo Factory

But Epoch has just posted that it may perform better. 

You pays your money, you take your choice. If you want to buy shampoo by the gallon then go for it. We just can't make it or sell it cheaply by the gallon to our formula


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## The Detail Doctor

I know when I have finished my Meguires Shampoo Plus I'll be giving it a go.


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## ahaydock

I used it twice at the weekend and was very impressed indeed :thumb:


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## petenaud

Price isnt everything.


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## Tiauguinho

I shall be getting this shampoo soon by post I hope. I seriously can't wait for it, my Shampoo Plus finished and I've been using my reserve bottle of CG Citrus Wash and Gloss, which I find a bit too aggressive on the cleaning power (it will strip wax easily if the mix is slightly too strong).


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## Epoch

I also purchased a 500ml at the weekend as i'm anticipating this being the Carnauba car wash of choice for the summer months


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## Tiauguinho

Alright I got the product.

Yesterday washed my MX-5 with it and it was... ****ing fantastic!! This shampoo is beyond what I was expecting. I used Megs Shampoo Plus or CG Citrus Wash and Gloss, but Born to be Mild and Kick Ass surely takes the crown in terms of lubricity and cleaning power. I used two caps on 10l of water. My car had a week old layer of Z Concours and it was perfect! 

Today I washed and waxed a RS4 from a friend and used 4 caps for 10l for more cleaning power since it was really grimy and once again, it was wonderful. Even the sheepskin mitts feel more smooth. 

Yes, it may be expensive, but what the heck, I wash my car more than anything else. If I spend money on a good LSP, I will spend good money on a good car shampoo. No compromise. Totally worth it for me 

Great product you and your team made Dom. Thanks for developing it and putting it out!


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## Original Poster

Will have to purchase some on the next order I think!


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## alanjo99

I used this myself yesterday on my car and my collegue wanted to wash his motor too , so gave him a sample of BTBW to try out.

Out of litterally hundereds of products he has tried - this is only the second time he has made a positve comment - the first was on a certain Trim Gel a month or two back and BTBW was the second.

If you haven't bought some already - its good stuff ! :thumb:


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## Dodo Factory

Thanks for the feedback chaps 

I was right to hold my ground it seems when the techs asked if I wanted to dumb it down and make it cheaper about two days after launch  I suppose Henry Royce had the right idea with quality being remembered after the price is forgotten 

PS I was using it in a strong dilution as a clay lube and it does work well for this, but we will work on a dedicated clay lube (all the lubricity, none of the cleansers) which should be a little cheaper and in concentrated form so you can make litres of the stuff from a little bottle.


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## andy665

Well after reading the debates about the product and its pricing I have decided the only clear way to judge it is to try it for myself so have ordered some - if its as good as the various Dodo waxes I have then I'm sure it will replace the Duragloss shampoo I've been happily using recently.


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## cfherd

There is definately some differences of opinion here but I'll be trying it for the first time this weekend after years of using Halfords own brand.

I'll be interested to see what difference having no conditioner makes so I'll let you know how I get on.


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## Ross

BTBM has to e my favorite shampoo:thumb:


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## cfherd

cfherd said:


> There is definately some differences of opinion here but I'll be trying it for the first time this weekend after years of using Halfords own brand.
> 
> I'll be interested to see what difference having no conditioner makes so I'll let you know how I get on.


Well the results are in and it's a massive thumbs up from me. The lubrication even using my old Mags mitt was brilliant.

I did initially use four capfulls but found it to get to many suds for my liking. Probably be two from now on.


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