# My ONR wash routine goal for caked on mud.



## Eppursimuove (Sep 28, 2010)

I am currently working on a method to wash cars using ONR that are mega dirty, caked on mud, the works. Through necessity, nothing else, as I live in the countryside and down dirt roads and I have found the normal ONR routine is only really good on light to medium dirty cars. One you you get into seriously dirty car territory, the ONR isn't practical.

My target is still to use less than 10 litres of water, and still with very little water hitting the floor. The emphasis is on the prewash phase. I have given up on the pump sprayer because it uses too much water and causes too much water run off to dislodge the caked on mud. So I am experimenting with other methods over the coming weeks.

This is about the limit to ONR I have found, as there is sand, dirt and mud particles in there much more and it starts becoming overwhelming. Ie the rinse bucket is almost liquid muck in itself after a while. This is a particularly good day, not terribly dirty:

Before:

































































































AFTER:

































































































































That wash was using the standard method but it was hard work, and I had to use about 3 litres of solution in the pump sprayer to get the mud shifting. This 3 litres of water on the ground is unacceptable so this is why I am researching alternative "pre-wash" methods. And the muddier the car is, the more pre-wash it needs. So my goal is to get the mud shifting or breaking down, in a touchless way, before I can then approach the car using the usual ONR method.


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## Eppursimuove (Sep 28, 2010)

Today, I used a pre-wash ONR solution in a mini-hvlp 0,8mm spray gun rigged up to my compressor. Results were disapointing due to too little flow of the solution, but the air pressure was sufficient to carry the fluid to the paint. So next I will try a primer gun with a 2 mm fluid tip with a pre wash ONR solution in to see if I can get more fluid out. 

So far as I can tell if I can balance enough fluid plus enough air pressure to dislodge the mud, ie get underneath it so the mud basically falls off of its own accord then I will accomplish my goal, and it means the pre-wash can probably be done using less than a litre of water. It also means I will be able to do the wheel arches using a pressurized ONR solution!


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## cptzippy (Apr 4, 2012)

Hmmm, really interesting. I'll keep my eye out as you get this sorted!


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## Kimb (Oct 4, 2011)

Have you tried a garden sprayer type 5ltr, it has a fine spray mist? and how long do you leave the pre-wash solution on the car?

Maybe it could be an idea, to make several solutions of buckets and shift, when water becomes to dirty, maybe make a smaller portion of wash.

This is my approach as I have the same problem some time, living on the country side....


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## Eppursimuove (Sep 28, 2010)

Yep I used the pump sprayer above. But they do not work well on mud that has set on the car like cement. So this is why I am looking into compressed air or high pressure steam if necessary.


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## Eppursimuove (Sep 28, 2010)

Giving up on the paint gun method, just bought one of these instead, will have total control over air and fluid rates then so can tune it just right. Will have the hose put into a ONR pre-wash solution and the air will carry this to the car. Like a pump sprayer on steroids but with less fluid flow thus less water waste.









Compressed air is attached to handle.
Standard hose attachment to the front handle.


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## Kimb (Oct 4, 2011)

I bought a Steam cleaner og tested on lower side panels of the car, they were caked in mud from driving on farmroads, and steam lifted to mud easy and could be wiped away with same mf cloth or damp mf cloth on the side, no scratches, but nice black plastic left like OE look, maybe because of the steam and heat the oils came back out... Sorry no pictures...

But maybe you could use the same method?


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## Steampunk (Aug 11, 2011)

Eppursimuove said:


> Giving up on the paint gun method, just bought one of these instead, will have total control over air and fluid rates then so can tune it just right. Will have the hose put into a ONR pre-wash solution and the air will carry this to the car. Like a pump sprayer on steroids but with less fluid flow thus less water waste.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ahh! An engine cleaning gun! Neat idea, though your fluid consumption with one of those will be fairly high, as it's essentially just a compressor driven siphon-fed pressure-washer. To be honest I'm not sure if your maximum water usage is realistic for your vehicle (That's about how much I use with a trigger sprayer and bucket for light-normal debris on a small car.), though I do not want to discourage you from experimenting; we could all learn something new from your testing and research :thumb:.

In my experience ONR's main shortcoming is its inability to handle large solid debris; the polymers simply cannot suspend objects that large, or trap them safely in the pile of the media. For this you need a volume of water to float the debris (And a solvent of some sort if it is adhered.), and a bit of pressure to move it off the car. When 'cleaning' something you are never actually 'destroying dirt', you're just moving it from one place to the other, so it's got to end up somewhere. Since you can't trap that much debris in the wash media, you're going to have to move it onto the ground, though it doesn't necessarily mean you have to flood the place in the process. The more loosely adherent the dirt, and more pressure you have, the less volume you need, but this is a factor that cannot be replaced. Both the mud and its carrier is going to end up on the ground. You can catch some of this on special mats or old towels, but it is simply unavoidable if you are trying to remove large solids in a _touchless_ fashion.

If your pre-wash can break up the mud, and loosen it, you might be able to move it with a water augmented compressed air system (Essentially a siphon device like the one you have, with a valve to control the air-to-water ratio. You'd essentially just be substituting water-pressure for air-pressure, whilst introducing just enough fluid into the mixture to keep the solids floating.), but it would be slow going without MUCH higher air volumes than your siphon gun or compressor could produce for an extended period of time. It would probably be much easier doing your pre-soak, and giving the lower panels a quick blast with a small, low-volume high-pressure washer before going on to your rinseless wash. You'd probably use 20-25 liters of water in the process, but it's still a massive saving over normal wash processes. If you use rain water, and siphon your pressure-washer feed from the water storage container, it will have even less of an environmental impact.

Try doing your ONR pre-wash with HOT water, and let it dwell whilst keeping the area wet; in my experience that increases the cleaning power substantially, and will help to break down the mud with a bit less product. You'll still need some water volume and pressure to get it off at that point, but it will minimize the amount required. You might be able to wash that much mud _safely_ off your car using 20-liters of water, but 10 is definitely not enough fluid to get that volume of solids moving before you touch it.

Another thing you could experiment with is using a product other than ONR for your pre-rinse, as normal detergents and surfactants will penetrate that sort of grime much more easily, and as you still need a certain volume of water to float the debris off the paint the residue shouldn't be an issue. A 2% dilution of Bilt-Hamber Surfex-HD in hot water might be something to look at, and would still be wax safe at that dilution. High pressure steam might also be an option to soften the mud and get it started moving, though it would strip the wax/trim dressings at the same time.

You might try experimenting with coatings (Nano-silica or quartz resin.) in order to reduce the mud's ability to adhere to the surface, and also resist more aggressive cleaning procedures. GTechniq has demonstrated the mud repellency/release properties of their coatings several times, and I believe they are used by a few WRC teams as well. ONR may interfere with these properties, but it shouldn't be anything that a 'nano' QD top-up couldn't fix.

Hopefully this helps. If you want to theorize any more, or need someone to bounce ideas off of please feel free to post or PM. I enjoy the science element of this problem .

Steampunk


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## Eppursimuove (Sep 28, 2010)

Great ideas folks, I like! 

Kimb if this new method fails I will invest in a steamer. I had an idea on here a long time ago about buying two "4 bar" steam cleaners and joining them together with a T piece and both coming out the same gun, to provide twice the steam for a small price. So it would be nice to give that a go.

Steampunk, you are quite right about dirt. It doesn't disappear it has to go somewhere. And this is my mindset exactly, so for the major clumps of mud/dirt I hope to have enough pressure and lubrication to blow it downwards off the car before taking the remainder off the usual way (into the wash media and then into the bucket). The ONR solution I will suck through the above gun will be warm, not hot, just above room temperature. As to amount of water used, using the method in my original post with a pump sprayer that was 1.5 litre, I would have to fill it up 2 maybe 3 times to blast the mud off with it. So call that 4 litres. Plus my 2 buckets. Your right I was using about 15 litres I reckon, so optimistic to achieve less than 10 litres total. Only achievable if I can disregard the rinse bucket. Which is a possibility depending on how much crap I can get off the car with this gun. 

My thoughts for the wash process are:

1) Turn the air pressure right down and have the fluid flow quite low on the gun. Pre soak the car as if using a normal pump sprayer.

2) Allow to dwell for 5 minutes before turning the air pressure up on the gun and the fluid flow up to a medium setting. Starting at the top of the car work down concentrating on the major mud/dirt areas and try to blast them down off the car. There always needs to be enough fluid so the dirt is still encapsulated in the ONR so as not to act like a sand blasting gun.

3) Major dirt removed, proceed to normal ONR routine 

It gets cold here, so I need to use this method down to zero degrees, on some winter days when the sun is shining I have found I can still wash the car down to -5°C as it is dark coloured and thus the body panels are heated by the sun. I would not be comfortable steaming the car at this temperature especially the glass, this is why I want to perfect a method using basically room temperature water.

I won't have this gun for a while because I bought it from England and I am in Finland so I can't test my theories for another week or so unfortunately.


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