# Car order cancellation issues



## c87reed (Dec 9, 2015)

In April I visited a VW dealer in the NE and test drove their Up GTI. I liked it enough to put my name down against one of the GTIs that they already had on order from the factory, and so not a spec that I had personally chosen.

Fast forward to a couple of weeks ago and there was still no build date for the car. With this in mind, I looked at other alternatives as I did want a car - they were still ahead of their projected build date, but on the day of ordering the dealer telephoned me and had said that instead of October it was actually scheduled for July now, the paperwork still noted October however. 

Around a week ago, I emailed my point of contact at the dealer to enquire about 'where I stood' in terms of the order should I wish to cancel - there was no response from them. These little GTIs are well in demand atm and so I knew that there was a likelihood that they would be able to sell that particular spec of car 10 times over.

Fast forward to yesterday and I saw a MINI that I liked, drove it, agreed a price and then left a deposit on it. I then emailed the VW dealership to instruct them to cancel my order for the Up GTI, I didn't specify exactly why but that the uncertainty of the build date wasn't helpful. They responded by email to tell me that they would call me today to go through the cancellation process. 

Today, he called and said that he would need to discuss the cancellation further with the dealership manager as there is a charge of £500+ vat imposed by VW when an ordered car is 'detagged' from individual. This is the first that I have ever heard about such a thing?

When ordering the car I paid a deposit, there is no mention of the said deposit in the signed contract and mentions only a few number of reasons that would be good grounds for cancellation. It doesn't make any reference to what happens if you choose to cancel for any other reason. It certainly doesn't mention any costs or refer to the recovery of any costs incurred.

Has anyone come across any such statements or attempts to recover such fees?

I am going to be digging much deeper as I believe there is a bit hardball tactics going on. The most annoying thing is that I tried to make my intentions clear and made a clear request to them to inform me of where they thought I would stand in relation to that. The deposit funds from the VW are needed for me to be able to complete the purchase of the MINI. The MINI garage have been really understanding about it and have said that my deposit from them will be returned if needed.


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## gareth_j (May 26, 2018)

Just reference the consumer goods act and say you’ll report them to trading standards


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## gareth_j (May 26, 2018)

And it’s not pulman by any chance is it?


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## c87reed (Dec 9, 2015)

gareth_j said:


> And it's not pulman by any chance is it?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


It was Lookers in Teesside. I've composed a lengthy email to them, basically outlining my dissatisfaction that they cannot give me a full and reasoned response.

They won't confirm or deny anything, even after a number of requests. I have been on the fence about getting the Up GTI solely due to the wait, however even if I'd decided to go it I am doubtful that I would want to deal with them as their actions seem a little questionable in my opinion.


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## fatdazza (Dec 29, 2010)

You may receive lots of advice, however at the end of the day you entered into a contract to buy the car.

A lot will depend on what was in that contract (and remember a contract can be written or verbal).

If either of you does not fulfill the contract then that person is in breach of the contract, and the "injured party" is entitled to be compensated for any reasonable losses they incur.

Depending on what is in the contract the dealer could keep your deposit. If it is not specific about the deposit, the dealer could only keep the deposit if the dealer incurred losses as a result of you pulling out (e.g. admin expense or the loss of profit if it cannot resell the car quickly for the same amount).


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## andy665 (Nov 1, 2005)

Did you read the Terms and Conditions of the contract you entered in to. 

If the contract states October delivery then they have not broken any part of the contract and therefore you are liable for any penalties that are set out in the contract.

The dealers ability to sell the car to another customer is completely irrelevant- you wish to terminate a contract you entered in to


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## c87reed (Dec 9, 2015)

I don't doubt that the dealer hasn't broken any part of the contract. My issue with them is that I asked for clarification on what cost, if any, would be inccurred should I wish to cancel and they offered no information. Yet, when I do instruct them to cancel, a detagging fee of £500 comes to light. Interestingly, their order form terms and conditions make no reference to the payment of costs incurred should you cancel without good reason.

My issue is not that I feel that should be able to rip up the contract without penalty, but that it should be clear about what happens if I cancelled.


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## andy665 (Nov 1, 2005)

c87reed said:


> I don't doubt that the dealer hasn't broken any part of the contract. My issue with them is that I asked for clarification on what cost, if any, would be inccurred should I wish to cancel and they offered no information. Yet, when I do instruct them to cancel, a detagging fee of £500 comes to light. Interestingly, their order form terms and conditions make no reference to the payment of costs incurred should you cancel without good reason.
> 
> My issue is not that I feel that should be able to rip up the contract without penalty, but that it should be clear about what happens if I cancelled.


Can't see the issue - they did not respond when you enquired about what would happen if you did cancel but did respond when you asked to cancel - you now know what the costs are.

Contracts are there to protect both parties financial interests. If you feel that the costs involved are not laid out clearly in the contract then you have a clear right to argue that point and if necessary, take legal action.

As far as I know there is no charge from the manufacturer imposed on a dealer on a change of customer tagged to an order - going in all guns blazing may just result in them enforcing what they are legally entitled. A calm, apologetic approach from you might just get a goodwill gesture from them - its not as if they are going to struggle to find a customer for such an in-demand car.

I was in a similar situation a few months ago but the dealer was unable to confirm that the car I had ordered would be delivered within my required timescale - I got the situation clarified and my deposit returned BEFORE I entered into another contract on a different car


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## percymon (Jun 27, 2007)

The T's & C's almost certainly will state that any delivery date is only an estimate and is not guaranteed. 

The detagging is their charge for putting a sold car back into unsold condition, even though its possibly not built. They will probably be able to sell it within a week, either by offering the build to another customer further down the wait list as it is, or amending the spec of the build to suit another customer allocation. Either way its admin for them and an unsold asset on their books.

Soft approach stating you've been asking for updates, wait times etc and not had much feedback may get you a free cancellation through sympathy.


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## sshooie (May 15, 2007)

Not responding is not the same as saying there is no fee, bearing in mind email is a non urgent means of communication etc. etc.


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## Clyde (Feb 15, 2012)

When I cancelled my S4 back in Nov 17, there was a fee of £330 plus VAT in the T&C. I'm surprised that their T&C are so vague, it's not like people never change their mind. Good luck sorting it.


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## c87reed (Dec 9, 2015)

Received a call from the dealer this evening, prior to this I hadn't had any answer regarding the cancellation costs. The manager himself explained exactly what the situation was and basically provided all of the info that I had wanted. This information would have been available to them all along and my gripe with them was that I felt like I had to drag the information out of them - I only wanted them to say if the deposit would be lost or not, or even give the worst case scenario.

They have now confirmed that the deposit would be lost in its entirety solely due to the detagging fee, which is fine providing that it is line with the terms and conditions of the contract. I am obviously aware of this for future reference, and if I don't consider it to be clear, I would always seek further clarification if I thought this necessary before proceeding.

It isn't something that I have heard of before (but I've never done a factory order), but the detagging fee of £500 is a measure from VW to prevent dealers ordering a large number of desirable or in-demand cars and assigning them to a random alias so that they can sell them at a later date to any buyer. Not really sure how that worked with my car as it was already on a dealer order.

Without knowing that such a charge even existed, I saw no issue in them letting another buyer have my order, given that it wasn't one I'd specced and so it was hard for me to imagine that the dealer would be at any great loss - with that in mind, I proceeded to look for another car. In truth I thought this would attract a low administrative fee to cover the change to another buyer - I had only thought that this would be the case due to the demand for the car and the fact that the list price has risen by another £400, had I ordered a Corsa in pink I wouldn't have anticipated that same outcome - after all many people won't get their Up GTIs until Spring '19!


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## Andyblue (Jun 20, 2017)

So, what have you decided, are you forfeiting your deposit / paying the cancellation fee or keeping with and taking the order of the UP ?


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## c87reed (Dec 9, 2015)

Andyblue said:


> So, what have you decided, are you forfeiting your deposit / paying the cancellation fee or keeping with and taking the order of the UP ?


Well that's where the drama that I've created continues. The MINI garage were understanding about my predicament when I explained, and agreed (on the telephone) to return my deposit in full. As you would expect from them to say, they claimed that VW had no grounds to withhold the deposit, the legal stance on that is probably different. Currently, I've told them not to hold the car and as such they are free to resell the MINI should a buyer come along.

I'd much prefer to get the MINI, however that is already at the right at the top end of my budget or rather past it and considerably more than I was spending on an Up GTI, and that was before I had factored in the £400 deposit loss, which isn't making it affordable. I will have a more definite answer tomorrow I expect.


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## Andyblue (Jun 20, 2017)

c87reed said:


> Well that's where the drama that I've created continues. The MINI garage were understanding about my predicament when I explained, and agreed (on the telephone) to return my deposit in full. As you would expect from them to say, they claimed that VW had no grounds to withhold the deposit, the legal stance on that is probably different. Currently, I've told them not to hold the car and as such they are free to resell the MINI should a buyer come along.
> 
> I'd much prefer to get the MINI, however that is already at the right at the top end of my budget or rather past it and considerably more than I was spending on an Up GTI, and that was before I had factored in the £400 deposit loss, which isn't making it affordable. I will have a more definite answer tomorrow I expect.


Hopefully all goes okay and you do manage to get something sorted...

Do you have a copy of the contract ? Have you read it to see if it says anything in relation to what they are telling you ?


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## c87reed (Dec 9, 2015)

Andyblue said:


> Hopefully all goes okay and you do manage to get something sorted...
> 
> Do you have a copy of the contract ? Have you read it to see if it says anything in relation to what they are telling you ?


I have it, the fee is obviously not explicitly contained within it, but it will fall under an area of loss from within the contract.


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## packard (Jun 8, 2009)

Have you rung another VW dealership and asked if you ordered what would happen if you cancelled from them?


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## fatdazza (Dec 29, 2010)

packard said:


> Have you rung another VW dealership and asked if you ordered what would happen if you cancelled from them?


Might be of interest but OP's contract is not with another dealer.

If OP is in breach of his contract with the dealer, all the dealer has to show is that they incurred costs or a loss as a result. The OP is then liable for reasonable losses.


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## c87reed (Dec 9, 2015)

fatdazza said:


> Might be of interest but OP's contract is not with another dealer.
> 
> If OP is in breach of his contract with the dealer, all the dealer has to show is that they incurred costs or a loss as a result. The OP is then liable for reasonable losses.


If the dealer gets charged that then they'll pass that cost on as a loss to them, the grey area will always be what constitutes a reasonable loss.

I asked VW today on their online live chat system about the detagging and their advisor just said that VW's sales agreements varied between different franchises and she couldn't offer any further information.


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## Nanoman (Jan 17, 2009)

Clause 2.2 refers to 'any other rights the customer has to cancel this agreement'. I'd be looking in more detail at the other documents you've signed as this suggests you might have other rights to cancel. 

They also have to take reasonable steps to reduce their loss (I'd suggest none if the vehicle was already ordered). 

Although clause 6.5 indicates you're getting nothing they have to justify witholding the deposit as being directly related to their costs incurred by you cancelling. I suspect they'll have difficulty with this (the car was already ordered - and is still ages away from being delivered. Chances are the dealership is talking ********)

Go to citizens advice and you'll probably get this sorted in a phone call or two. Also, have a closer look at anything else you've signed.


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## Andyblue (Jun 20, 2017)

c87reed said:


> ....It isn't something that I have heard of before (but I've never done a factory order), but the detagging fee of £500 is a measure from VW to prevent dealers ordering a large number of desirable or in-demand cars and assigning them to a random alias so that they can sell them at a later date to any buyer. Not really sure how that worked with my car as it was already on a dealer order.!


Hmmm, if it was already dealer order (and therefore on order) you could speak with the manager again and say this was not your order, you agreed to buy an order that the dealership had already ordered and was therefore allocated to them - not you at the order stage, so really, you shouldn't need to pay for a cancellation fee as you didn't 'order' the car...

Think we know what their answer / response will be - they've allocated it to you, but could be worth a try if you decide you don't want to proceed with the UP...


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## c87reed (Dec 9, 2015)

The only other thing that I signed was the receipt for my deposit and that document didn't have any terms or conditions on.

Interestingly, I've read posts on the Up! forum where many claim to have cancelled their orders in similar situations without penalty.


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## Nanoman (Jan 17, 2009)

c87reed said:


> The only other thing that I signed was the receipt for my deposit and that document didn't have any terms or conditions on.


So you haven't signed an order or those t's and c's? Get on the phone to citizens advice and get your deposit back then.

What did the receipt for your deposit have written on it? Any small print or anything?

How did you pay the deposit? Try calling your bank and doing a chargeback if it gets messy but citizens advice should sort it.


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## c87reed (Dec 9, 2015)

Nanoman said:


> So you haven't signed an order or those t's and c's? Get on the phone to citizens advice and get your deposit back then.
> 
> What did the receipt for your deposit have written on it? Any small print or anything?
> 
> How did you pay the deposit? Try calling your bank and doing a chargeback if it gets messy but citizens advice should sort it.


I will look into it to be sure it's right. The page pictured above is the reverse of the 'VEHICLE ORDER AND AGREEMENT' form which I signed. My deposit receipt form has no further small print and only shows the vehicle details and balance figures, I also signed that. The only T&Cs I have are shown above.


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## fatdazza (Dec 29, 2010)

c87reed said:


> I will look into it to be sure it's right. The page pictured above is the reverse of the 'VEHICLE ORDER AND AGREEMENT' form which I signed. My deposit receipt form has no further small print and only shows the vehicle details and balance figures, I also signed that. The only T&Cs I have are shown above.


Sorry to break the bad news, but you signed a contract.

You also paid a deposit, which clearly relates to your contract. Why else would you hand over money to the dealer? I think you would have a hard time arguing any different.


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## c87reed (Dec 9, 2015)

fatdazza said:


> Sorry to break the bad news, but you signed a contract.
> 
> You also paid a deposit, which clearly relates to your contract. Why else would you hand over money to the dealer? I think you would have a hard time arguing any different.


Yes, the deposit does clearly relate to the contract - we can be certain of that. Think about it this way, you also pay a deposit when you order a car from a distance without any face-to-face contact, yet you are still entitled to have that sum refunded should you wish to cancel the contract, even after taking delivery - the deposit would be of little security to a dealer in that instance. Or an alternative would be when you pay a _refundable_ deposit to secure a car prior to viewing.

There is a contract in place, but that doesn't mean that the dealer can do as they please. I will make sure that what they have done is considered 'reasonable'. Yes, I may have a hard time explaining, but that's not to say that I won't investigate the legalities. I cannot be any worse off than I am at present.


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## fatdazza (Dec 29, 2010)

c87reed said:


> Yes, the deposit does clearly relate to the contract - we can be certain of that. Think about it this way, you also pay a deposit when you order a car from a distance without any face-to-face contact, yet you are still entitled to have that sum refunded should you wish to cancel the contract, even after taking delivery - the deposit would be of little security to a dealer in that instance. Or an alternative would be when you pay a _refundable_ deposit to secure a car prior to viewing.
> 
> There is a contract in place, but that doesn't mean that the dealer can do as they please. I will make sure that what they have done is considered 'reasonable'. Yes, I may have a hard time explaining, but that's not to say that I won't investigate the legalities. I cannot be any worse off than I am at present.


Not disagreeing with you at all.

However facts are:

1. You signed a contract.

2. You want to cancel that contract. Look at the terms of the contract for cancellation. i.e in what specific circumstances can you cancel the contract?

3. If you cancel the contract, outside of the terms of the contract, The dealer is entitled to "damages" (i.e. compensation for reasonable losses incurred) if you breach the contract.

The link below may help you understand contract law:

https://smallbusiness.findlaw.com/business-contracts-forms/breach-of-contract-and-lawsuits.html


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## muzzer (Feb 13, 2011)

c87reed said:


> I will look into it to be sure it's right. The page pictured above is the reverse of the 'VEHICLE ORDER AND AGREEMENT' form which I signed. My deposit receipt form has no further small print and only shows the vehicle details and balance figures, I also signed that. The only T&Cs I have are shown above.


Unfortunately, you signed a form that says vehicle order and agreement. You entered into a legally binding agreement to purchase the car. The dealer will have reserved a build slot at the factory for your spec of car, the GTi. 
If you then change your mind its not unreasonable for you to have to pay penalty charges, the dealer will probably have to spend quite some time undoing the order

Look at it like this, if you take out a phone contract and decide you dont want it after the cooling off period, you have to pay a penalty. It's the same in this situation, because you signed an agreement which no doubt states that in the T&C's.

As for other people being able to cancel their orders, different dealers will have different rules i guess, all to do with the franchise owner.


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## Nanoman (Jan 17, 2009)

Remember... If you sign a contract then break the terms of the contract the other party is entitled to reasonable reimbursement under the law. The OP took a car which was already ordered so the dealer might have a hard time claiming £500 is reasonable. Even though he’s signed the agreement they can’t just keep all his deposit without justification. If he paid £10k deposit on a £15k car so you think the dealer would be allowed to keep it all? 

There are lots of other protections which can overrule what’s written in the contract such as Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts. 

OP did you speak to citizens advice. 


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## fatdazza (Dec 29, 2010)

Nanoman said:


> Remember... If you sign a contract then break the terms of the contract the other party is entitled to reasonable reimbursement under the law. The OP took a car which was already ordered so the dealer might have a hard time claiming £500 is reasonable. Even though he's signed the agreement they can't just keep all his deposit without justification. If he paid £10k deposit on a £15k car so you think the dealer would be allowed to keep it all?
> 
> There are lots of other protections which can overrule what's written in the contract such as Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts.
> 
> ...


I don't think anyone has said that a dealer is entitled to keep all of the deposit irrespective of the size.

Most have stated the basic principle that if the OP is in breach of the contract, then the dealer is entitled to compensation for reasonable losses incurred.


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## c87reed (Dec 9, 2015)

I'm not banking on getting any of the £400 back. They say the fee itself is £500 but that they have never chased anyone for the additional £100. If the dealer would get charged that amount from VW then there is little that I am going to be able to say in argument to that really. Had they mentioned the likely forfeit of the deposit on the 2nd June when I had asked them, my actions would have differed. But for future reference it's there.

I just wish I knew how and why my contract is different to that of other individuals who have cancelled without paying this. I am talking here about people that have taken out a factory order around the same date for the same model of car and have cancelled at roughly the same point - prior to the schedule or confirmation of a build week. Surely the other dealers wouldn't just swallow this up themselves, as why would they. Will I even find that out... probably not.


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## Nanoman (Jan 17, 2009)

c87reed said:


> I'm not banking on getting any of the £400 back. They say the fee itself is £500 but that they have never chased anyone for the additional £100. If the dealer would get charged that amount from VW then there is little that I am going to be able to say in argument to that really. Had they mentioned the likely forfeit of the deposit on the 2nd June when I had asked them, my actions would have differed. But for future reference it's there.
> 
> I just wish I knew how and why my contract is different to that of other individuals who have cancelled without paying this. I am talking here about people that have taken out a factory order around the same date for the same model of car and have cancelled at roughly the same point - prior to the schedule or confirmation of a build week. Surely the other dealers wouldn't just swallow this up themselves, as why would they. Will I even find that out... probably not.


Have you spoken to citizens advice yet?

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## andy665 (Nov 1, 2005)

c87reed said:


> I'm not banking on getting any of the £400 back. They say the fee itself is £500 but that they have never chased anyone for the additional £100. If the dealer would get charged that amount from VW then there is little that I am going to be able to say in argument to that really. Had they mentioned the likely forfeit of the deposit on the 2nd June when I had asked them, my actions would have differed. But for future reference it's there.
> 
> I just wish I knew how and why my contract is different to that of other individuals who have cancelled without paying this. I am talking here about people that have taken out a factory order around the same date for the same model of car and have cancelled at roughly the same point - prior to the schedule or confirmation of a build week. Surely the other dealers wouldn't just swallow this up themselves, as why would they. Will I even find that out... probably not.


Its probably a combination of things:

1. Different dealers have different contractual agreements with Volkswagen - possible but unlikely, I know how Volkswagen UK work and its unlikely there are different contracts with different dealers - there are in likelihood only two contracts - one for large multiple site dealer groups and another for sole franchises

2. Dealer is simply not willing to offer a goodwill gesture where others have

3. Could be (and most likely to be) - dealer has had a lot of cancellations in a short period of time and Sales Manager or DP is fed up and simply exercising their contractual rights to put a stop to it

Lets not also forget that most people who have cancelled orders (including myself) do so when there has been a material breach of contract by the supplying dealer in the first place and its this that prompts the cancellation- in such cases the dealer has no right to charge anything and / or retain deposits.

In your case you have already stated that the dealer has not breached the contract so are well within their rights to recover any material losses incurred.

This whole "detagging" thing is curious - I have spoken to several people I know who work within the VW network and neither of them is aware of any fee levied on a dealer due to a change of customer against a confirmed order - but that still does not mean that the dealer cannot charge you for any "incurred" losses


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## Mugwump (Feb 17, 2008)

c87reed said:


> I'm not banking on getting any of the £400 back.


To be fair, I would be surprised if anyone were to recieve any of their deposit back if they backed out of the deal themselves. That is after all, the whole point of a deposit - it is a financial commitment to the order, and is there to tie the purchaser to fulfilling the purchase.

If everyone was simply given their deposit back whenever they decided they didn't want to continue with the purchase, it would be pointless for the seller to take a deposit in the first place. Some sellers may be generous with their goodwill, and return some or all the deposit with the foresight to think that this person may be a customer again in the future (especially where the cancelled order is for something for which they will have no difficulty in finding a replacement buyer for - wonder why there doesn't appear to be much goodwill in this case??)

Only if the seller is unable to fulfil the contract - for instance, either fails to supply what is ordered, or fails to supply within the specified time - then they would be legally compelled to return the deposit in full.


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