# Manual - vs - auto



## gordonpuk (Mar 14, 2010)

I've owned a few auto's and loved the one's with a 130+ BHP
like my 2ltr Vectra with sports box, I tried a 1.4 auto and almost got myself killed at a round about because of the lag.
I have friends who wont even contemplate auto, it's like asking them
to eat monkey brain, no - no - no wont like it, even though they've never tried it.
I'd have another Auto no problem. In traffic they're a dream.
What's the viewers perspective on autos, yay or nay?

I do laugh at Americans that can't drive "stick"


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## Fiesta-125 (Mar 18, 2012)

I'm nearly 19, only driven manuals, however drove a Automatic BMW M3 around Brands Hatch. Kinda decided auto isn't just for little engines.. I want a auto but think its a grey hair sort of thing?


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## Obsessed Merc (Apr 10, 2011)

I've not had a manual for the last 10 yrs +
Paddles on the steering wheel if I feel the urge, but I don't.
Even my winter hilux truck is auto.

Auto def suits me. But it's a marmite question...


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## SteveyG (Apr 1, 2007)

I'm not fussed either way, though there are times when a manual gearbox makes some manoeuvres easier/quicker.


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## gordonpuk (Mar 14, 2010)

Fiesta-125 said:


> I'm nearly 19, only driven manuals, however drove a Automatic BMW M3 around Brands Hatch. Kinda decided auto isn't just for little engines.. I want a auto but think its a grey hair sort of thing?


Cheeky sod!!! Off to bed with you and lights out!!


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## SteveTDCi (Feb 8, 2006)

On a big engined car then yes, on a small car (below 3.0) no


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## gordonpuk (Mar 14, 2010)

SteveTDCi said:


> On a big engined car then yes, on a small car (below 3.0) no


Hmmm, My 2 Ltr Vectra was OK, or so I felt. . . . . .


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## Luffehamp (Mar 14, 2012)

A car used just for going up and down motorways? Give me auto any day of the week.

A car used for spirited drives around the countryside? Manual please


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## rob28 (Nov 7, 2008)

Manual is more fun. Auto is better for everyday.
I've only had auto's in bigger engines - 2.8 BMW and V8 Fords. I can imagine an auto box in a smaller engine could be a bit sluggish.


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## Dave KG (Feb 23, 2006)

Manual for me. I personally feel like I am in more control and it suits the driving I do... motorway work with the Volvo, I would just have it in 6th most of the time anyway with periodic shifting to 5th for flexibility. But over country roads where I live which are pretty hilly, I find autos tend to be in the "wrong gear" (certainly for my liking) more often than not, certainly not the most flexible gear for the condition. They are fine, but the manual just offers me more control. Many find the manual box with the D5 S60 a strange choice, but it is perfect for me. 

My Forester is also manual (as only the 5MT came with dual range) - as I like to potter around off road now, again I find the manual gives me more control when I need it.


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## Junkers_GTi (May 29, 2013)

Manual 'purist' here. 

I've driven automatics and I don't like them. Great for city driving but that's it.


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## Johnny_B (Feb 3, 2013)

Ive only had autos due to being disabled and finding it laughable that everyone sayin smaller manuals are sluggish .. they are far from sluggish esp with the new auto type gear boxes such as DSG


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## DieselDamo (Apr 26, 2012)

gone from a R32 manual to a bmw 3.0 twin turbo petrol auto flappy paddle type and am more than happy with it ,id be hard pushed now to go back to manual

sport mode and away ya go :car:


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## The Cueball (Feb 8, 2007)

I think it depends on the type of car and engine...

S8 is an auto... with manual paddles... works great... and can be controlled as much as a manual.

Z4 is a manual.... nice little roadster wouldn't suit an auto (IMO)

I feel you need to change your driving style when using a full auto, and need to understand how/why/when it's going to change.... ESP the downshifts.... 

:thumb:


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## dubber (Oct 2, 2011)

^^ what he said. I've had a dsg in an Audi a3 diesal. Wasn't over happy with it in that but my friend has a dsg in an r and that is awesome.


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## DJ X-Ray (Sep 2, 2012)

Manual for me


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## chefy (May 9, 2011)

I think it depends on the car - eg, I think large saloons / larger engined cars, auto is best, where-as, small cars I think are more suited to manual, but it depends on ones driving style, my CLK is auto, it suits the car I think, but can be a bit slow on kickdown, but with the latest technology, autos are way different and much faster than ever, so can be as much fun, particularly with the likes of tiptronic (like my CLK has) and or paddle shift.
But for a real true sporting drive, lets say in an E30 BMW 325 sport, or the likes of a Sierra Cosworth then it HAS to be manual.
But, really it depends on the car and how you drive.


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## bigup (Jun 4, 2009)

Had manual and now have DSG, both have their moments but enjoy both, i really don't mind either to be honest


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## benji1205 (Jun 15, 2009)

Again I think that it all depends on what car you have got and what you are using it for. I have just purchased a new shape 1 series that has the 8-speed auto box in. The MPG in both figures and reality are more than what i got out of the manual (and my car has less mileage on it than the manual i drove). I do around 70 mile round trip commute and for the times that I am pottering through traffic and cruising down the motorway the auto is perfect. However, when I did have the manual, i enjoyed a country lane blast much, much more as I felt more involved etc. Unfortunately though, I do not get time anymore for country lane blasts and therefore the auto ticked all of the boxes for what it was required for, plus I have just had ACL reconstruction on my 'clutch' leg so its certainly more comfortable in the auto.

Autos do seem to be more efficient, quicker and more reliable these days. I personally dont think it will be long until autos takeover.


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## R7KY D (Feb 16, 2010)

For the first 19 years of my drving career I had manuals , Then several years ago I got my first auto , I've driven autos ever since , I don't really see my left foot ever touching a clutch again , Unless I'm driving a hire car , In saying that the last car I had and my current one both have sport mode and can both be driven using the paddles on the steering , I do this when I want to have a bit of higher revving fun


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## griffin1907 (Mar 4, 2006)

I can only drive autos and do agree that smaller engined autos aren't great.

What bugs me more than anything is constant car reviews that ALWAYS dismiss autos in favour of manuals. Yes, I agree that maybe a manual box gives you a bit more fun, but in real terms how many people fully exploit their cars full potential on a day to day basis that warrants the need to have a manual box for "the pure thrill of driving".

If I could I'd probably have a manual, but I think that's because I'd have never have driven an auto if my circumstances hadn't forced my hand. I love my autos and get just as much point to point fun out of them as many I know with a manual.


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## A210 AMG (Nov 8, 2008)

Depends upon the car / box combination

I would say that most auto's I have owned are quicker than a maual equivalent easily. Also kick down when overtaking.. much quicker. (theses have all been 3.0L or larger engines though)

I love my autos and even the wife I pursuaded to swap. So easy and smooth to drive.


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## TOMMY_RS (Aug 2, 2010)

I drive a auto, for every day driving it's great.


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## M20fes (Aug 28, 2012)

DSG has been proven to be quicker then manual, eliminates gear throw times.

only concern is autos can take some fun and skill away from the driver. You could outpace a quicker car then your own just from being more precise on your gear change, now with the likes a BMW 330D with DSG you got no chance


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## DW58 (Nov 27, 2010)

I've been driving since 1977, and whilst I've only owned manual cars to date, I have extensive experience of driving VW DSG, Audi SportTronic and similar boxes on Mercedes, Volvo, Ford and dare I say it Smart ForTwo.

I love the DSG and similar boxes and will be ordering a Golf Mk.7 with DSG/paddles within the next week or so. I am partially disabled and DSG makes driving much easier for me, plus I don't feel that I have any less control. In fact, because of the way DSG or similar makes driving easier/more comfortable for me, I feel it makes the driving experience more pleasant and thus enjoyable.

I'm sore as hell and very stiff today having driven to Aberdeen and back yesterday, I'd be feeling much better had I been using a DSG car.

Therefore it's a definite YES for me.


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## Clkrichard (Nov 17, 2011)

It totally depends on how your mood, the road, the traffic, the weather etc etc lead you to drive. On a twisty road where you want to have fun a manual is better. In motorway or city traffic jams an auto is better. Manual for snow and ice and so it goes on.
At least you can manually change gear in an auto whereas a manual will always be a manual.
I have two 3litre + autos and one 2 litre manual and all work well for me most of the time.


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## Billigmeister (Mar 3, 2013)

I have only just tried an auto for the first time and now i have one i don't think i can go back!!!

I agree that manual would be better for more fun driving but getting to work and back and town driving auto is so much nicer


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## The Cueball (Feb 8, 2007)

I guess the people saying manual cars for twisties or fun is "better" are taking about the actual gear change process???

Auto's with flappy paddles change gear quicker, can downshift better, quicker and a blip of throttle for fun...

so they are faster.... tip - see motorsport for further proof and clarification of this... 


What bit of the manual is "better" for you then??? is it only the hand/foot co-ordination that you like, or find better? so what else???

Please don't give me the "I'm in control" BS... :lol:  

:thumb:


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## DW58 (Nov 27, 2010)

Excellent Cuey - well put :thumb:


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## VW Golf-Fan (Aug 3, 2010)

Manual all the way!

Autos are for 'non-drivers!!'


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## Junkers_GTi (May 29, 2013)

Personally I fell ATs spoil the driving experience. I acknowledge the fact that it is comfortable for most of you here and I respect that. The ''I'm in control'' actually is no BS at all, I don't like any computer to make decisions for me especially when it comes to a driving-specific thing as the gearbox is. I'm 25 but still old fashioned, motorsport should be what it used to. 3 Pedals, a stick and no computerized BS.

Hand/foot co-ordination, heel & toe... I don't know if it is ''better'' but it works for me and the ones that prefer MTs over ATs


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## DW58 (Nov 27, 2010)

VW Golf-Fan said:


> Manual all the way!
> 
> Autos are for 'non-drivers!!'


:wall:


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## Clkrichard (Nov 17, 2011)

Junkers_GTi said:


> Personally I fell ATs spoil the driving experience. I acknowledge the fact that it is comfortable for most of you here and I respect that. The ''I'm in control'' actually is no BS at all, I don't like any computer to make decisions for me especially when it comes to a driving-specific thing as the gearbox is. I'm 25 but still old fashioned, motorsport should be what it used to. 3 Pedals, a stick and no computerized BS.
> 
> Hand/foot co-ordination, heel & toe... I don't know if it is ''better'' but it works for me and the ones that prefer MTs over ATs


So you simply select gears manually within your auto box ! All you actually lose is a clutch pedal and you gain a faster change plus full auto when needed. You are perfectly free to not have a computer make gear decisions for you if you dont want that .....


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## DW58 (Nov 27, 2010)

Junkers_GTi said:


> Personally I fell ATs spoil the driving experience. I acknowledge the fact that it is comfortable for most of you here and I respect that. The ''I'm in control'' actually is no BS at all, I don't like any computer to make decisions for me especially when it comes to a driving-specific thing as the gearbox is. I'm 25 but still old fashioned, motorsport should be what it used to. 3 Pedals, a stick and no computerized BS.
> 
> Hand/foot co-ordination, heel & toe... I don't know if it is ''better'' but it works for me and the ones that prefer MTs over ATs


Surely you're missing the point, this post isn't about motor-sport.

As you can see from my previous, I've been driving for 36 years - long enough to decide what is best for me, I simply don't see any correlation between the number of pedals a car has and what you term "driving experience".

With a modern dual-clutch box you can have as much or as little control as you want, plus the system is actually much faster than the driver which is the beauty of such a system, and on the more up to date models you can even control how such a box works/changes gears etc. by changing mode (currently four including a fully custom mode on the Golf Mk.7).

How much (if any) experience of the like of DSG or other autos do you actually have?

As Clkrichard points out, your argument doesn't actually hold water.


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## The Cueball (Feb 8, 2007)

Junkers_GTi said:


> Personally I fell ATs spoil the driving experience. I acknowledge the fact that it is comfortable for most of you here and I respect that. The ''I'm in control'' actually is no BS at all, I don't like any computer to make decisions for me especially when it comes to a driving-specific thing as the gearbox is. I'm 25 but still old fashioned, motorsport should be what it used to. 3 Pedals, a stick and no computerized BS.
> 
> Hand/foot co-ordination, heel & toe... I don't know if it is ''better'' but it works for me and the ones that prefer MTs over ATs


it is all BS...Or do you drive a car with no traction contol, ABS, rev limits, and other computers...basically if you don't drive a kit car or TVR, then computers run your car... 

oh wait, it's just the computers about gear changes you don't like eh.. eh....   

I use my auto by pressing the "up" button, or the "down" button... how is that different to you "pushing" a clutch and "selecting" a gear using a rod?

ETTO though... what suits you is best for you...

I agree about the motorsport bit too... 

:thumb:


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## The Cueball (Feb 8, 2007)

BTW... I'll just add at this point, I'm asking about manuals because I want to know...

Despite my posts maybe looking like I prefer autos... I don't...

My reason, and the reason I asked, is because I just like feeling like I have worked to change gear...if that makes sense...

Computers run all cars these days... the "old style manual change" using feet and hands to move levers etc makes me think I've "earned" the enjoyment more...

Yes, I like auto, and a full throttle gear change in the S8 is a great thing to be a part of... but, but, but.... :lol:

Put it this way... I would never buy an auto motorbike...

Cars, yes...

:thumb:



VW Golf-Fan said:


> Manual all the way!
> 
> Autos are for 'non-drivers!!'


I'm really hoping you missed a few :lol::lol:  out there... because if you haven't.... well.... :wall:

Maybe time to lay off the interweb for a while... 

:thumb:


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## Naddy37 (Oct 27, 2005)

VW Golf-Fan said:


> Manual all the way!
> 
> Autos are for 'non-drivers!!'


Have you actually had any real experience in driving an auto?

Because your comment is total ********!!!!


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## The Cueball (Feb 8, 2007)

*The illusion of control*



> The illusion of control is the tendency for people to overestimate their ability to control events, for instance to feel that they control outcomes that they demonstrably have no influence over.
> 
> The effect was named by psychologist Ellen Langer and has been replicated in many different contexts.
> 
> ...


:thumb:


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## Junkers_GTi (May 29, 2013)

I know this is not about motorsport.
On manual mode, even if you have to make a ''hand movement'' to change gears, there's still no clutch pedal so the gear changes are still automatic and a computer decides whether it's going to shift or not. TC, EBD, ABS, Rev limiter, I'm fine with that, just don't want anything besides me to control the gear changes.
As I said before, if ATs suits you, then use them, I don't have a problem with that. 

Let's just agree to disagree here, respect my point of view as I respect yours.


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## The Cueball (Feb 8, 2007)

awww... OK cupcake...





:thumb:


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## pgarner528 (Aug 11, 2008)

Depends totally on the car / box. I used to have a 735i with auto box and hated it. I have also had a Z4 with SMG (technically not an auto but a flappy paddle manual with a clutch) and thought that was fabulous - best of both worlds. I have also drive a newer Z4 with the ZF 8 speed auto box and that was really nice - very smooth.

I would say that for a diesel, an auto makes sense as you eliminate the dual mass flywheel.

For me, it all depends on how much I 'feel' the torque convertor. Maybe older ones weren't as good as modern ones hence why I hated the 735i.


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## LittleMissTracy (May 17, 2012)

I had a 83 Renault 11 with 3 gears and was thirsty, it was ok and never felt I didn't have control of it, never had an auto after that. 
Auto's now are so different, brother has a VW passat auto and that is really nice. It is not something I would look for in a motor as there usually more expensive.


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## Dixondmn (Oct 12, 2007)

Ferrari don't make manuals any more... that's good enough for me..

I was determined to buy an Auto when I changed my car, but I failed miserably and plumped for a MKIII Focus ST.

next time.....


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## M20fes (Aug 28, 2012)

was seriously looking at the Leon MK3 TDI 150 with 7 speed DSG F1 paddle shifts, gonna book a test drive and see how I feel about it.


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## DW58 (Nov 27, 2010)

Junkers_GTi said:


> I know this is not about motorsport.
> On manual mode, even if you have to make a ''hand movement'' to change gears, there's still no clutch pedal so the gear changes are still automatic and a computer decides whether it's going to shift or not. TC, EBD, ABS, Rev limiter, I'm fine with that, just don't want anything besides me to control the gear changes.
> As I said before, if ATs suits you, then use them, I don't have a problem with that.
> 
> Let's just agree to disagree here, respect my point of view as I respect yours.




What difference to the driving experience does depressing a clutch pedal with your left foot actually make?

As another member explained to me at considerable length a few months ago, a dual-clutch direct-shift gearbox isn't strictly an auto box, so that rather knocks your rather flawed argument into a ****ed hat. When in manual mode it doesn't change gears up or down until you tell it to, so apart from a clutch pedal what's the difference - you can change up/down via the floor lever or the paddles if you have them, ergo you have TOTAL control when and if you want it, but automatically controlled when you don't.

The fact that such systems are now pretty much standard on many Supercars e.g. Bugatti, Ferrari etc. has to be indicative of something don't you think?

Come on, take the blinkers off and see common sense


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## M20fes (Aug 28, 2012)

on a downside, auto boxes more expensive to replace then manuals


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## DW58 (Nov 27, 2010)

That I can't argue with, but isn't that what warranty is for


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## The Cueball (Feb 8, 2007)

M20fes said:


> on a downside, auto boxes more expensive to replace then manuals


and heavier...so less MPG too...

(I think... or they used to be)

:thumb:


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## RisingPower (Sep 21, 2007)

The Cueball said:


> I guess the people saying manual cars for twisties or fun is "better" are taking about the actual gear change process???
> 
> Auto's with flappy paddles change gear quicker, can downshift better, quicker and a blip of throttle for fun...
> 
> ...


For me at least cuey, the auto boxes/flappy paddles I've driven have been mainly gob****e. Ok, the gallardo had an awesome flappy paddle system, but it would be a pain in traffic and around town.

You have no control over how the clutch engages in a flappy paddle, so unless its a half decent system like in the gallardo where you could keep the power on and it changed seamlessly, you wouldn't even want it at the track.

Heck an r8 had flappy paddles and every time you changed, no matter what you did, it jerked back and forth like a donkey. It was horrible.

I think I'd just have a manual because it's easier to visualise what gears you're in, around town it's easier and you can control the clutch slip and generally the flappy paddles don't rev match, so far as i'm aware.

That and whilst you shouldn't be changing gears mid turn, it's more fun and bloody difficult with flappy paddles.

There's also more/more expensive bits to go wrong and some autos hesitate horrendously.

I'm sure an auto would be fine for boring motorways though.


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## adamvr619 (Jun 12, 2010)

Luffehamp said:


> A car used just for going up and down motorways? Give me auto any day of the week.
> 
> A car used for spirited drives around the countryside? Manual please


Auto for long motorway journeys but surely a manual is just as good considering your in one gear I could understand you sayin for city driving as that would make sense


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## Vossman (Aug 5, 2010)

Auto all the way, my mate has a Grand Cherokee with almost 250k on the clock, original engine and box, the box gets a regular service, i.e. oil and filter changed, its like the day it came off the assembly line.
Auto boxes from Europe do not last as long but the main reason is lack of maintenance, a simple oil and filter change in the box each year will make a world of difference. Oil and filter change on the Cherokee comes in at around £35 as well.


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## Dixondmn (Oct 12, 2007)

yeah not a lot of people think about doing an oil change on the box.
The trouble with a lot of modern manual boxes is they are sealed, you have to whip the drive shafts out to drain, and refilling is a pain.


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## Dave KG (Feb 23, 2006)

The Cueball said:


> I guess the people saying manual cars for twisties or fun is "better" are taking about the actual gear change process???
> 
> Auto's with flappy paddles change gear quicker, can downshift better, quicker and a blip of throttle for fun...
> 
> ...


I take great pride in my driving, and the gear changing process is part of the driving experience for me... I match the revs on every change I make through blipping on down and allowing fall back on up, and take pride in getting a very smooth drive using the clutch and a good old fashioned gear lever. Slower than a modern DSG - yes. But more satisfying from a stand point of doing something yourself rather than letting clever computers and tricks do it for you. The process feels smoother with me driving a manual than I have felt many autos and DSG boxes, and I like the process of doing it myself. It is part of the satisfaction and enjoyment of driving  And yes, I *am* in control here - fuller control as I am in command of what the revs are doing and when the clutch engages etc. It may not be as quick or as sophisticated as a modern auto or DSG etc, but it hands the full control of the process to me and this is also something I like.


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## Dave KG (Feb 23, 2006)

DW58 said:


> *What difference to the driving experience does depressing a clutch pedal with your left foot actually make?
> *
> As another member explained to me at considerable length a few months ago, a dual-clutch direct-shift gearbox isn't strictly an auto box, so that rather knocks your rather flawed argument into a ****ed hat. When in manual mode it doesn't change gears up or down until you tell it to, so apart from a clutch pedal what's the difference - you can change up/down via the floor lever or the paddles if you have them, ergo you have TOTAL control when and if you want it, but automatically controlled when you don't.
> 
> ...


Makes a difference to me - as I control when the the drive engages, and it gives *me* the satisfaction of having achieved a perfectly smooth gear change. Not a case of when the gear change occurs, more the full process of the gear change. For many, driving is about going fast - for me, I try to make my driving as smooth as ultimately possible and I like to be the one doing it... Yes, autos make for a very smooth drive, but I don't have the satisfaction of having carried the process out myself.


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## gordonpuk (Mar 14, 2010)

Dave KG said:


> Makes a difference to me - as I control when the the drive engages, and it gives *me* the satisfaction of having achieved a perfectly smooth gear change. Not a case of when the gear change occurs, more the full process of the gear change. For many, driving is about going fast - for me, I try to make my driving as smooth as ultimately possible *and I like to be the one doing it.*.. Yes, autos make for a very smooth drive*, but I don't have the satisfaction of having carried the process out myself*.


Pffft! Said it all!


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## Derekh929 (Aug 28, 2011)

Fiesta-125 said:


> I'm nearly 19, only driven manuals, however drove a Automatic BMW M3 around Brands Hatch. Kinda decided auto isn't just for little engines.. I want a auto but think its a grey hair sort of thing?


:lol: that what I thought swore I would never have an Auto box until BMW decided the new 3 Series 330d was going to be auto only , I had e46 330d m sport , then e90 330d m sport, but only wanted manual, test drove auto in new 3 smaller engine model and I was not sure , then got convinced on F30 posts from hardcore manual lovers the new BM auto was fantastic and I would love it.
500 miles into new motor and I'm converted fantastic quick box , but not all auto boxes are quick like some of the new sport boxes


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## Derekh929 (Aug 28, 2011)

Dave KG said:


> Makes a difference to me - as I control when the the drive engages, and it gives *me* the satisfaction of having achieved a perfectly smooth gear change. Not a case of when the gear change occurs, more the full process of the gear change. For many, driving is about going fast - for me, I try to make my driving as smooth as ultimately possible and I like to be the one doing it... Yes, autos make for a very smooth drive, but I don't have the satisfaction of having carried the process out myself.


I think there is auto and sport auto quick shift, get your self down to a BMW garage and test drive a 8 speed sport auto in 3 ltr car and tell me you still want your manual:thumb:
I bet after 1 hour you will find it addictive changing with paddles and also very controllable still using down changes to reduce speed , in sport plus the chanes are rapid and make the car, and would be slower in manual option yes slower due to speed of changes


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## Derekh929 (Aug 28, 2011)

The Cueball said:


> I guess the people saying manual cars for twisties or fun is "better" are taking about the actual gear change process???
> 
> Auto's with flappy paddles change gear quicker, can downshift better, quicker and a blip of throttle for fun...
> 
> ...


I have been converted , from hard core manual lover, well put quey, I have driven v8 M3's , new M5 ,C63 AMG, to name a few and the auto boxes were superb , and I think after you have driven a few of these you may change your view, still a lot of poor auto's though , slush boxes


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## SteveyG (Apr 1, 2007)

I find the dual clutch auto boxes awful in crawling traffic as they can be quite jerky, a standard auto will need you to hold the brake all the time. After a week with a hire car on a bad few days on the A14 I decided an auto was not for me. In other driving scenarios and I wouldn't really care what I was driving.


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## addzSE (Feb 4, 2012)

I've had 4 manual cars previously, and now own a 3L auto - it was the right move for me, and I'm 25 if age has anything on this thread lol.


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## DW58 (Nov 27, 2010)

Dave KG said:


> Makes a difference to me - as I control when the the drive engages, and it gives *me* the satisfaction of having achieved a perfectly smooth gear change. Not a case of when the gear change occurs, more the full process of the gear change. For many, driving is about going fast - for me, I try to make my driving as smooth as ultimately possible and I like to be the one doing it... Yes, autos make for a very smooth drive, but I don't have the satisfaction of having carried the process out myself.


Sorry Dave, but I totally fair to understand why you get so much satisfaction from changing gear, for me the novelty wore off a very long time ago. The fact that my legs don't work as well as they did has a lot of influence on my views these days. I just can't get excited about wobbling a stick on the floor in conjunction with depressing a pedal - let's face it, changing gear smoothly isn't rocket science, and I can't see the point of doing it myself when the car can do it quicker, more smoothly and more economically than I can. Life's too short to get excited about a very simple bit of leg/hand co-ordination, I've done so many manual gear-changes in my 36 years and many hundreds of thousands of miles to miss it, plus with DSG I can be just as manual as I wish when and more likely IF the fancy takes me.


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## Ross (Apr 25, 2007)

I have a semi auto in the Subaru and I really like it,good for me with my left leg not being that great.


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## johanr77 (Aug 4, 2011)

DW58 said:


> Sorry Dave, but I totally fair to understand why you get so much satisfaction from changing gear, for me the novelty wore off a very long time ago.


You seriously arguing with the boy about why he feels the way he does, it's his opinion and preference just because the novelty has worn off for you it clearly hasn't for Dave.


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## 182_Blue (Oct 25, 2005)

Ross said:


> I have a semi auto in the Subaru and I really like it,good for me with my left leg not being that great.


You have a subaru?


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## LostHighway (Sep 23, 2011)

Our Hondas are both manuals. My truck with a 4.8L V8 is an automatic. I don't mind automatics in cars with quite a bit of torque and a broad power band but I haven't driven one I've liked with 2L or smaller 4 cylinder engines.
Personally, on long motorway journeys I prefer a manual. Stop and go city driving is where I sometimes wish for an automatic. Twisty rural road with little traffic definitely call out for a manual.


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## Alex_225 (Feb 7, 2008)

Personally I prefer a manual car, even if I was buying a supercar I'd still want a manual gear shift than even these rather impressive dual clutch paddle shift set ups. 

I can understand if you do a lot of driving or you drive a big, comfy cruiser that is more about comfort than shifting through the gears then an auto is pretty well suited. 

Also I understand that set ups like the DSG boxes change gear quicker than a person could but to me that's cheating. Anyone can click a paddle where as there is an art to a manual gearbox. I like hot hatches and as good as that new Clio 200 probably is, I'd prefer a manual gearbox in it.


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## DW58 (Nov 27, 2010)

johanr77 said:


> You seriously arguing with the boy about why he feels the way he does, it's his opinion and preference just because the novelty has worn off for you it clearly hasn't for Dave.


Are you asking me or telling me?


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

I'd choose manual over any automatic. 

Some of the newer flappy paddles are getting good though. 

My biggest fear is with some of the new transmissions, is there are more bits to go wrong and wear out making it more expensive to repair once they do.


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## johanr77 (Aug 4, 2011)

DW58 said:


> Are you asking me or telling me?


Apologies was an expression of disbelief disguised as a rhetorical question.


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## DW58 (Nov 27, 2010)

I've been giving this issue much thought - I hope this post summarises what I've already said and hopefully addresses some misconceptions ... ... ...

I guess there's a fundamental problem with this thread, fully automatic gearboxes have been put together with dual-clutch/DSG (and variations thereof)/semi-auto etc. when clearly they are very different things, one offering a great deal of control whilst the other doesn't.

I haven't much experience with true autos and what I have I didn't like, on the other hand my experiences of DSG etc. has been very positive. I feel it's important to make the distinction between the two.

It's a very personal thing at the end of the day - to perhaps change my previous comments It's up to the individual how much control he/she wants - Manual, DSG, Fully Auto - for my circumstances while factoring in my disability, DSG suits my needs best giving me full control when/if I want it.


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## Shiny (Apr 23, 2007)

Manual for me, although a bit of a pain in traffic. When i'm out driving the ATR, i want to tell it what i gear i need, not what gear it thinks i should have.

If i hit 50 and buy a sensible car, i will probably get an auto. But until then :driver:


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## A210 AMG (Nov 8, 2008)

^ Almost all new autos you can do that.... you just don't have a clutch.

Almost All AMG cars, Audi S cars, Jags, even Ferraris etc are almost ALL autos...

you could have a sensible car in a C63 estate..... It would blow away most supercars with the family and dog in the back... and its auto


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## daydotz (May 15, 2011)

i never really got on with the DSG it was nice to potter around with as a auto but just seemed a pointless experience in tiptronic mode at the time 

i keep my manual for abit longer :driver:


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## Dave KG (Feb 23, 2006)

DW58 said:


> Sorry Dave, but I totally fair to understand why you get so much satisfaction from changing gear, for me the novelty wore off a very long time ago. The fact that my legs don't work as well as they did has a lot of influence on my views these days. I just can't get excited about wobbling a stick on the floor in conjunction with depressing a pedal - let's face it, changing gear smoothly isn't rocket science, and I can't see the point of doing it myself when the car can do it quicker, more smoothly and more economically than I can. Life's too short to get excited about a very simple bit of leg/hand co-ordination, I've done so many manual gear-changes in my 36 years and many hundreds of thousands of miles to miss it, plus with DSG I can be just as manual as I wish when and more likely IF the fancy takes me.


That you fail to understand why I get more satisfaction out of a more "mechanical and part of it" process does not make my preference of a manual gearbox wrong however - it simply means that you don't enjoy the same things about driving as I do... simple things in life can bring a lot of enjoyment in driving and I have to say that it does for me. I can understand that it doesn't for others, in which case stick to automatic. Manual is a better fit for me, I enjoy driving a manual car more and thus I stick to them. I *feel* more involved. I have a mountain bike if I want to flap a paddle to change gear 

If smooth gear changes were not rocket science, more people would have a beautifully smooth style in a manual - my experience of working with other drivers through IAM observation is that this is certainly not the case alas but that is another story.


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## Dave KG (Feb 23, 2006)

Kerr said:


> I'd choose manual over any automatic.
> 
> Some of the newer flappy paddles are getting good though.
> 
> My biggest fear is with some of the new transmissions, is there are more bits to go wrong and wear out making it more expensive to repair once they do.


And that is one of my fears with the new auto gearboxes... what are they like to work with at 200k plus miles compared to a simple old manual box... are there are of the new breed boxes with the mileage around and are they still sharp, or are they tired?


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## DW58 (Nov 27, 2010)

Dave KG said:


> That you fail to understand why I get more satisfaction out of a more "mechanical and part of it" process does not make my preference of a manual gearbox wrong however - it simply means that you don't enjoy the same things about driving as I do... simple things in life can bring a lot of enjoyment in driving and I have to say that it does for me. I can understand that it doesn't for others, in which case stick to automatic. Manual is a better fit for me, I enjoy driving a manual car more and thus I stick to them. I *feel* more involved. I have a mountain bike if I want to flap a paddle to change gear
> 
> If smooth gear changes were not rocket science, more people would have a beautifully smooth style in a manual - my experience of working with other drivers through IAM observation is that this is certainly not the case alas but that is another story.


Ah, but I didn't imply your view was wrong simply that I can no longer appreciate it because it's something have long since tired of. As a died in the wool Cantankerous Old Fart, I'm quite happy to let modern technology do the work for me, plus being free of repeated pain every time I clutch/de-clutch is right on the money for me.

I fully agree with you about smooth gear changes, fortunately it's something I mastered a very long time ago, hence the novelty has worn off. Maybe by the time you reach Old Farthood you'll understand my POV.


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## DW58 (Nov 27, 2010)

Dave KG said:


> And that is one of my fears with the new auto gearboxes... what are they like to work with at 200k plus miles compared to a simple old manual box... are there are of the new breed boxes with the mileage around and are they still sharp, or are they tired?


There again, how many manual gearboxes are still sharp at 200k miles?

I sold a Subaru Legacy estate at almost 100k which I had owned since new and its gearbox with still as good as new, but an Audi A6 Avant which I did similar mileage on was like stirring a pudding by ±100k.


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## Franzpan (Mar 2, 2009)

250hp and a DSG box makes for a very relaxing drive but yet is extremely satisfying when pressing on.

The only thing I dont like about is you can't clutch and blip the throttle whilst rolling along to hear my exhaust LOL!


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## Turkleton (Apr 18, 2010)

Manual for me, I prefer being a part of it all and not just a passenger holding on.

My brother recently sold his 135i which had the DCT gearbox, fantastic box, 60 in <5.0 seconds with launch control, flappy paddles for 'manual style' stuff... but it was still flawed in the way that you were uninvolved, even with the paddles.
He's now bought a manual Mini GP and it's a far more involving drive and the car as a whole is much more fun.


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## Dave KG (Feb 23, 2006)

DW58 said:


> There again, how many manual gearboxes are still sharp at 200k miles?
> 
> I sold a Subaru Legacy estate at almost 100k which I had owned since new and its gearbox with still as good as new, but an Audi A6 Avant which I did similar mileage on was like stirring a pudding by ±100k.


Of the two cars I have, a 110k Subaru Forester and a 170k Volvo S60, both 'boxes feel slick - never refuse or make getting a gear difficult, the movement is precise and the gears go through cleanly. Neither makes any nasty noises, they feel ready for many more miles. Perhaps the complex new semi-auto 'boxes are the same, I would just be interested to know


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## Dave KG (Feb 23, 2006)

DW58 said:


> Ah, but I didn't imply your view was wrong simply that I can no longer appreciate it because it's something have long since tired of. As a died in the wool Cantankerous Old Fart, I'm quite happy to let modern technology do the work for me, plus being free of repeated pain every time I clutch/de-clutch is right on the money for me.
> 
> I fully agree with you about smooth gear changes, fortunately it's something I mastered a very long time ago, hence the novelty has worn off. Maybe by the time you reach Old Farthood you'll understand my POV.


Perhaps, in a few years, I will have different preferences... for now though, I get the most driving pleasure out of my manual gearboxes - I like the mechanical process, it is a part of driving, a skill of driving that I am not yet ready to hand over to a bunch of microchips. Curiously, for someone of a younger generation, I am not overly trusting of modern technology...


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## DW58 (Nov 27, 2010)

I was totally agin auto boxes until about ten/eleven years ago, and with regard to pure autos I probably still am, but I'm totally hooked on the modern breed of twin-clutch, i.e. DSG-type boxes.

My discovery of DSG-type boxes coincided with the onset of my mobility health problem, and it suits me perfectly. I was just discussing visiting the local Volkswagen dealer with SWMBO, the days of my Golf Mk.6 1.4TSi 6-speed manual are numbered, I'm plan on ordering a Mk.7 1.4TSi DSG with paddles later this week. This will make me less jealous of my Mum's Audi A1 Sportback 1.4TFSi with SportTronic. 

Old Fart and proud of it!


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## millns84 (Jul 5, 2009)

I did like my 2.5 Cougar auto, but it was so much slower than the manual version and less economical. More modern auto's might be a better option but I must admit I do miss the simplicity of an auto.


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## knightstemplar (Jun 18, 2010)

My 2 cars are auto and my wife has a 1.2 fiat 500 auto and it is a fantastic little car. We wouldn't go back to a manuals now but that's our preference. How do you eat crisps while driving a manual, gear change gets in the way 

Not that I do that or condone it


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## willwander (Nov 30, 2012)

Always had manuals because they are more fun, but the next car will be an auto, they are getting better and these days there are too many cars on the road to have fun. I am bored to death of changing gear on my daily commute, it's just all stop go, stop go traffic these days, even on the motorways.


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## DW58 (Nov 27, 2010)

Done it, Mk.7 Golf with DSG/paddles ordered today.


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## andystuff1971 (Jan 16, 2011)

My new bmw is my first auto in 23yrs of driving. Equal if not better performance compared to the manual version of the same car. It is a dream to drive, doubt i will ever go back.


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## CGRD (Jan 9, 2013)

The first Auto I drove was when I was 17, it was my mates grannies 1.4 94 reg escort, terrible thing put me off autos for years. Then when I was 25 I got a 335d with a auto box and flappy paddles. Absolutely loved it and very rarely used the paddles, I've had a few autos since. I now however have a VXR8 and tested both auto and manual, in this car the manual seemed to suit.


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## Vote 4 Pedro (Jul 6, 2013)

Love Auto's
I've had loads, good and bad over the last 30 years, they have improved no end.
I just part x'ed my Ford Kuga 4x4 Auto that was a great auto box for a 2013 Audi A3 sportback 1.6TDi S Tronic 7 speed auto and it's a fantastic gearbox. so far i'ld say it's the best yet.
The wife has a 2005 Ford Focus auto, car is fine but it's nearly the worst auto box i've ever driven.
If it's a few years since you've driven one it's time you tried again, auto/tip-tronic boxes give the best of both.


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## Prism Detailing (Jun 8, 2006)

I used to prefer manual, I guess it depends on the type of car and driving style, my old golf gti could never had been and auto, I drove it like I stole it lol, but the BMW 323i touring I would have preferred as and auto for the type of car it was. The my Saab 95 hot aero was an auto, the gear change was so quick in it and for an executive car auto was best for it. My current car, vw Passat v6 4mo is auto with tip tronic which IMO is the best of both worlds, not add good as the BMW tiptronic but suits the car very well, the whole more control thing could be debated, yes you might control the gearing better but two hands on a steering wheel at all times is much better control of the car.

Benefits of an auto, more relaxed driving experience, fantastic in traffic, more likely the car has not be thrashed before!


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## Derekh929 (Aug 28, 2011)

andystuff1971 said:


> My new bmw is my first auto in 23yrs of driving. Equal if not better performance compared to the manual version of the same car. It is a dream to drive, doubt i will ever go back.


Hi out of interest what BM have and what box i have the new sport auto in F31 330d and it's fantastic


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## CzechRich (Jul 25, 2008)

I prefer autos now, they are better with bigger engines. I urge anyone who hasnt tried one properly to get a few test drives, the new autos with paddles are the best of both worlds.

I find it makes driving much more relaxing, especially in traffic, where I began to find changing gear a real chore, especially if you cant pass slow moving traffic. I used to get annoyed by the car in front causing me to have to change gear again, sounds daft. Auto has solved that problem.

Manual gear changing just seems to be like 'doing the washing up by hand'. If you think about it, its mad these days to be doing it by hand.

I can however see that in a small sports car, a manual is more fun. But for most everyday driving auto is the future, allows drivers to concentrate on the road and not get stressed in traffic.


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## Derekh929 (Aug 28, 2011)

CzechRich said:


> I prefer autos now, they are better with bigger engines. I urge anyone who hasnt tried one properly to get a few test drives, the new autos with paddles are the best of both worlds.
> 
> I find it makes driving much more relaxing, especially in traffic, where I began to find changing gear a real chore, especially if you cant pass slow moving traffic. I used to get annoyed by the car in front causing me to have to change gear again, sounds daft. Auto has solved that problem.
> 
> ...


Your first line is key to the Auto box IMHO bigger engines


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## D.Taylor R26 (Feb 5, 2012)

personal preference will always be manual for the added involvement. for road use as long as the car will cruise at reasonably low revs in 6th gear i dont think its a problem. on back roads or track auto's can never make up there mind from hard braking to accelerating and your always waiting for them to catch up whether its a golf or a 997. 

autos offer less driver input which for me means less enjoyment once the novelty of flicking paddles diminishes. its easier to go faster as theres less to distract from your lines, braking points etc but isnt nessesarly as fun as going slower in a car where the driver does most of the imputs. 

thats also why F1 is so boring these days


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## RisingPower (Sep 21, 2007)

D.Taylor R26 said:


> personal preference will always be manual for the added involvement. for road use as long as the car will cruise at reasonably low revs in 6th gear i dont think its a problem. on back roads or track auto's can never make up there mind from hard braking to accelerating and your always waiting for them to catch up whether its a golf or a 997.
> 
> autos offer less driver input which for me means less enjoyment once the novelty of flicking paddles diminishes. its easier to go faster as theres less to distract from your lines, braking points etc but isnt nessesarly as fun as going slower in a car where the driver does most of the imputs.
> 
> thats also why F1 is so boring these days


Uhm, f1 is boring because it is just about politics and money.

Some of the dsgs/flappy paddles are fantastic. Autos I don't think I've come across one I like so far, but an amg merc, iunno.


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