# BMW X Drive cars



## tmitch45 (Jul 29, 2006)

As some of you may have seen I'm looking for a new car and on the short list is the BMW 340i M Sport Touring and the 440i M Sport Grand Touring but I cannot find any in X Drive 4 wheel drive. This is what I don't understand the diesels and lower powered petrol engines are there in X Drive but seemingly not the 340 and 440 cars?? I'm wondering what the reason could be for this. Surely the higher powered 330+BHP would really benefit from X Drive to firstly get the power down and also to make it a safer car to drive?

If you read the Evo reviews they rave about the BMW's because they are great to drive as you can get the rear to step out. Now maybe I got old suddenly but I don't want to "get the **** out" on my car I want a safe planted drive particularly in the UK where a large percentage of the year is raining or icy winter conditions. I also want my wife to be able to drive the car around without suddenly finding she is facing the other way!


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

Unless you do something silly RWD isn't going to throw you off the road.

Unless you turn off the traction and stability control even giving it 100% throttle in the middle of a roundabout won't cause the rear to come around.

A guy on the BMW site does some vlogging. Here is his example video.


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## tmitch45 (Jul 29, 2006)

Kerr said:


> Unless you do something silly RWD isn't going to throw you off the road.
> 
> Unless you turn off the traction and stability control even giving it 100% throttle in the middle of a roundabout won't cause the rear to come around.
> 
> A guy on the BMW site does some vlogging. Here is his example video.


Thanks your response. I've just heard a few stories (from people I know) about people getting it badly wrong in higher powered modern BMW's so wanted to look for 4wd. Also I spend most weekends in the winter parking the car on muddy fields and I'd heard rwd autos are the worst for getting stuck!


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## DrEskimo (Jan 7, 2016)

I can only assume that BMW pride them selves on RWD being the best drive train for the best 'driver experience', and as such, only offer RWD on their more performance focused cars....?

In contrast Audi have made a name for themselves with their quattro system, so is a hall-mark of their performance cars.

Both have their pros and cons. The lack of steering feel and understeer in my S5 is certainly noticeable, and the first thing I noticed when I drove a M235i was how much better the steering feedback and general engagement when going around the twisties.

On the flip side, I still giggle like a school girl every time I mash the pedal down in my S5 at the lights and have instant traction. I can beat a lot of cars off the line, particularly in the wet!


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## Cookies (Dec 10, 2008)

Just to counter what Kerr said, a neighbour, and good friend, has an e90 318i, and asked me a few weeks back if my car (an f30 320d x drive) felt unstable in the wet. He doea a fair bit of driving as he does wedding videos, and was saying that on several occasions the rear of his car had stepped out on wet country roads. Mine definitely doesn't feel unstable in any weather. 

For what it's worth, I don't know what type of tyres he is running on the car. 

What about a 335d? 

Cooks

Sent from my D6603


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## tmitch45 (Jul 29, 2006)

Cookies said:


> Just to counter what Kerr said, a neighbour, and good friend, has an e90 318i, and asked me a few weeks back if my car (an f30 320d x drive) felt unstable in the wet. He doea a fair bit of driving as he does wedding videos, and was saying that on several occasions the rear of his car had stepped out on wet country roads. Mine definitely doesn't feel unstable in any weather.
> 
> For what it's worth, I don't know what type of tyres he is running on the car.
> 
> ...


Diesels just aren't for me but I'm sure its a great car!


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## samm (May 19, 2006)

The wife has a 330d xdrive, and it never struggles to maintain traction, even in the wet. Launch control can be a bit brutal.


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## Crafty (Aug 4, 2007)

DrEskimo said:


> Both have their pros and cons. The lack of steering feel and understeer in my S5 is certainly noticeable, and the first thing I noticed when I drove a M235i was how much better the steering feedback and general engagement when going around the twisties.


The funny thing is the Mlites are often criticised for poor steering feel!

OP: if its any help I've moved from FWD to an M135. You will drive differently to FWD. Its not any more difficult and I don't think I've found it any more dangerous or had to drive slower in poor conditions than I would FWD.

Worst case scenario, the stability/traction control are going to look after you. It'd be poor form to rely on them, think of it as more of a safety net. All the tail out antics that journalists like to write about are done with it turned off.

the only time stability control isn't going to help is if the tyre has lost traction completely - aquaplaning / ice / mud etc. But that goes for any car - FWD or RWD - the only difference is which end of the car you crash first


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## DrEskimo (Jan 7, 2016)

Crafty said:


> The funny thing is the Mlites are often criticised for poor steering feel!


Ha really!

Perhaps that's just an indication of just how vague the steering feel is on Audi's then.... :doublesho

Never driven a 'proper' M car so cant say from personal experience.


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## JoeyJoeJo (Jan 3, 2014)

I was told it was an issues with the mechanicals on the petrol engine with RHD.

You can get an M140 and 340 xdrive in LHD but not RHD.


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## JoeyJoeJo (Jan 3, 2014)

Also, for two years I had a 118d that would break traction a few times a month, sometimes intended, sometimes not.
18 months in 335 x and it's happened twice, both were on cold tyres, in the wet, and inappropriate use of sport/sport mode


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## sshooie (May 15, 2007)

This is my 1st rwd in over 20 years, I love it and as above I actually find it difficult to get the back out (controlled of course) tyres do play a big part but I just love the way it pushes you over roundabouts. 

A friend has 2 335d x drives, and estate and a saloon he's just taken delivery of for his Mrs, his brother has a new shape M5 and he did comment it can be a bit weary but that's the extreme of 560hp. Having said that, comparing the 0-60 times it's only ½ a second quicker then the 335d and the 335d will return decent mpg.

Have a google of the xdrive system, it's a great bit of technology.


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

sshooie said:


> This is my 1st rwd in over 20 years, I love it and as above I actually find it difficult to get the back out (controlled of course) tyres do play a big part but I just love the way it pushes you over roundabouts.
> 
> A friend has 2 335d x drives, and estate and a saloon he's just taken delivery of for his Mrs, his brother has a new shape M5 and he did comment it can be a bit weary but that's the extreme of 560hp. Having said that, comparing the 0-60 times it's only ½ a second quicker then the 335d and the 335d will return decent mpg.
> 
> Have a google of the xdrive system, it's a great bit of technology.


From a standing start the xdrive makes a difference, but the performance difference between the M5 and a 335d is huge.

On the original topic, I see a dealer has posted his prices of 440i and the 440i Gran Coupe on another forum. They sound really good deals.


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## ollienoclue (Jan 30, 2017)

The only reason you 'need' X drive is because you are patently afraid of being one of 'those' BMW drivers who will be the very first to block the road on the first layer of winter snow.

Unless you are arsing around you should not be losing control of any car, (much less one that is RWD) in the wet. Eyes/****/foot combined system is enough.

Ah yes but my 0-60 times are shorter than yours, Sir... and that matters why exactly?

I do fear people too often delve into the realm of 'statistics' driving even when they come to buy these things. A horde of torque and 4 wheel drive does not make it automatically good.

The people who operate in the motoring field of statistics are the same whom find themselves being buried by people in real cars in that quintessential (and totally childish) motorway roart between drivers who bury their toes in the shall we say '50 and above' category of speed, whence the demonstration of wallet size, horsepower, and more importantly, max engine speed and usable rev range, proves it's worth.

The point of all this of course is thus to point out that unless it is an M car it is a girls car, and if you need 4wd on it, it is a training girls car. Go and drive a Porsche or some other boots up sports car, realise that actually, the M cars are those whence some sports-carness has been instilled in them, and forget about who has the best 0-60 times, you or that guy in the suit and tie on the A road scramble to work each morning.

There is much to be said for the purity and balance of a car that is rear drive and was designed from the ground up as such. Get yourself an Alpina, equipped with the right wheels, tyres and more importantly a functional rear diff, not a flashy light version, and be one with the road. Not counting turbochargers and drive shafts.


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## tmitch45 (Jul 29, 2006)

ollienoclue said:


> The only reason you 'need' X drive is because you are patently afraid of being one of 'those' BMW drivers who will be the very first to block the road on the first layer of winter snow.
> 
> Unless you are arsing around you should not be losing control of any car, (much less one that is RWD) in the wet. Eyes/****/foot combined system is enough.
> 
> ...


Not quite sure what you just said but thanks.


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## sshooie (May 15, 2007)

Kerr said:


> From a standing start the xdrive makes a difference, but the performance difference between the M5 and a 335d is huge.


From a wet/damp start of course it would, in the dry?

The performances are closer than you may think...

http://fastestlaps.com/models/bmw-335d-f30

http://fastestlaps.com/models/bmw-m5-f10


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

sshooie said:


> From a wet/damp start of course it would, in the dry?
> 
> The performances are closer than you may think...
> 
> ...


They are miles apart. With the best part of 250bhp power advantage it's expected.

Those stats aren't quite accurate as they show the 335d as having a terminal speed of 102mph on the quarter mile. It'll be a bit more at around 105mph. The M5 will be doing 122mph. 17-20mph difference after a quarter mile is a huge advantage. 1.4 seconds between the cars is also massive.

It's genuinely not close at all.


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## ollienoclue (Jan 30, 2017)

Kerr said:


> They are miles apart. With the best part of 250bhp power advantage it's expected.
> 
> Those stats aren't quite accurate as they show the 335d as having a terminal speed of 102mph on the quarter mile. It'll be a bit more at around 105mph. The M5 will be doing 122mph. 17-20mph difference after a quarter mile is a huge advantage. 1.4 seconds between the cars is also massive.
> 
> It's genuinely not close at all.


On a motorway in the real world the M5 would rip it's guts out.

The ability to rev out nice and high is what does it, less gear changing.


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## bigmac3161 (Jul 24, 2013)

sshooie said:


> From a wet/damp start of course it would, in the dry?
> 
> The performances are closer than you may think...
> 
> ...


That's the problem sounds close on paper but beside each other u'd see the massive gap.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## tmitch45 (Jul 29, 2006)

Went to view some cars over the weekend and got talking to a salesman at a BMW dealership. He assured me (as people on here have) that unless driving like an idiot, turning TC off or breaking the speed limit its extremely difficult to loose the back of the car. He went on to say that if I felt it was a real issue particularly for winter that you could have a Limited Slip Diff fitted which in his words would increase grip, make it more difficult to loose the rear of the car and make it easier to put power down without getting wheel spin. Is he correct in what he is saying? Will it give extra grip and confidence in the wet, ice snow etc???? I have a good idea of what the LSD does but I'm unsure what affect this will have on the car. I'll I see on the net is drifters fitting LSD's to make drifting easier and more controllable which is obviously not what I want to be doing.


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

A LSD makes a big difference to how the car will drive and put the power down. An open diff effectively makes the car one wheel drive at times. The power goes through the wheel that's spinning up if you lose traction. 

The dealer will be somewhere around £2500 for supply and fit of a LSD.


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## rf860 (Jul 24, 2011)

Putting aside the traction concerns, have you driven/been a passenger in a M-Sport model before? Personally, i found the ride in the rwd 4 series too harsh, there was a lot of noise transmitted into the cabin when going over sunken manhole covers and the like - i couldn't live with it for everyday use. The XDrive however is significantly more comfortable as this de-selects the sport suspension option. If you combine the XDrive with the adaptive dampers, this can provide the best of both worlds - set to Sport when you want sharp handling, set to Comfort when you just want to waft along in comfort.


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## tmitch45 (Jul 29, 2006)

rf860 said:


> Putting aside the traction concerns, have you driven/been a passenger in a M-Sport model before? Personally, i found the ride in the rwd 4 series too harsh, there was a lot of noise transmitted into the cabin when going over sunken manhole covers and the like - i couldn't live with it for everyday use. The XDrive however is significantly more comfortable as this de-selects the sport suspension option. If you combine the XDrive with the adaptive dampers, this can provide the best of both worlds - set to Sport when you want sharp handling, set to Comfort when you just want to waft along in comfort.


Not driven or been in one as yet, its early days in our search just seeing size wise which cars would fit our family. I was in my father in laws 2016 V8 Mustang today now that was a very hard ride!!


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

You have the option of active suspension. 

You should try to avoid runflat tyres too. Hopefully that's an option to fit proper tyres.


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## tmitch45 (Jul 29, 2006)

Kerr said:


> You have the option of active suspension.
> 
> You should try to avoid runflat tyres too. Hopefully that's an option to fit proper tyres.


From my initial research all current BMW's are on run flats. Are you suggesting they should be avoided due to ride quality or price or something else?


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

tmitch45 said:


> From my initial research all current BMW's are on run flats. Are you suggesting they should be avoided due to ride quality or price or something else?


The ride quality. They have improved, but they are still miles behind real tyres. They are too harsh, too heavy and transmit more noise.

M cars don't have runflats and even cars like the M140i they are optional. It's an option very few people would choose.


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## rf860 (Jul 24, 2011)

Kerr said:


> The ride quality. They have improved, but they are still miles behind real tyres. They are too harsh, too heavy and transmit more noise.
> 
> M cars don't have runflats and even cars like the M140i they are optional. It's an option very few people would choose.


It's an option on the 4 series. I regret not selecting it!

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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

rf860 said:


> It's an option on the 4 series. I regret not selecting it!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You want runflats, or regret not selecting normal tyres?


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## rf860 (Jul 24, 2011)

Kerr said:


> You want runflats, or regret not selecting normal tyres?


I regret not selecting non run flats.

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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

rf860 said:


> I regret not selecting non run flats.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


What are you driving now?

Going back the E9x BMW days just about everyone on the forum got rid of the runflats once they had worn them out. The difference is huge in every aspect. Much smoother, quieter, more grip and more predictable. I hate the way runflats behave on rough roads. Going over rough roads it would really destabilise the car due to little sidewall flex. It was like the tyre dropped off the edge of uneven bumps rather then the tyre moulding around the surface.

We've still got runflats on her Mini. Both the summer and winter wheels are runflats. The winter ones are much better being a softer compound. They kind of make sense for her. Most of her miles are on Aberdeenshire back roads and that's the last place you want a puncture.


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## rf860 (Jul 24, 2011)

Kerr said:


> What are you driving now?
> 
> Going back the E9x BMW days just about everyone on the forum got rid of the runflats once they had worn them out. The difference is huge in every aspect. Much smoother, quieter, more grip and more predictable. I hate the way runflats behave on rough roads. Going over rough roads it would really destabilise the car due to little sidewall flex. It was like the tyre dropped off the edge of uneven bumps rather then the tyre moulding around the surface.
> 
> We've still got runflats on her Mini. Both the summer and winter wheels are runflats. The winter ones are much better being a softer compound. They kind of make sense for her. Most of her miles are on Aberdeenshire back roads and that's the last place you want a puncture.


A 420d M-Sport XDrive with adaptive dampers. Would've went petrol weren't it for my mileage.

Haven't you got runflats on your M235i?

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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

rf860 said:


> A 420d M-Sport XDrive with adaptive dampers. Would've went petrol weren't it for my mileage.
> 
> Haven't you got runflats on your M235i?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Nice.

No. It's Michelin Pilot Supersports as standard. Runflats are a no cost option that very few people choose. There's been a few cases of cars being delayed waiting for tyres on backorder and people have accepted runflats to get their car quickly.


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## tmitch45 (Jul 29, 2006)

tmitch45 said:


> Went to view some cars over the weekend and got talking to a salesman at a BMW dealership. He assured me (as people on here have) that unless driving like an idiot, turning TC off or breaking the speed limit its extremely difficult to loose the back of the car. He went on to say that if I felt it was a real issue particularly for winter that you could have a Limited Slip Diff fitted which in his words would increase grip, make it more difficult to loose the rear of the car and make it easier to put power down without getting wheel spin. Is he correct in what he is saying? Will it give extra grip and confidence in the wet, ice snow etc???? I have a good idea of what the LSD does but I'm unsure what affect this will have on the car. I'll I see on the net is drifters fitting LSD's to make drifting easier and more controllable which is obviously not what I want to be doing.


Anyway back to the LSD any opinions?


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## andy665 (Nov 1, 2005)

I don't think an LSD will help you in what you are looking for - all weather traction and security, my view is an LSD is desirable for those who are looking for the control ./ adjustability it offers when you are really throwing the car around


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## DrEskimo (Jan 7, 2016)

andy665 said:


> I don't think an LSD will help you in what you are looking for - all weather traction and security, my view is an LSD is desirable for those who are looking for the control ./ adjustability it offers when you are really throwing the car around


Yea this is how I understood it too.

You can get a sport diff for the S5, which many swear by as it reduces the understeer inherent in AWD systems.

AWD gives you increased traction, not grip, whereas a diff will give you more grip but not traction...

...I think...! Don't ask me what the technical difference is!

(probably going to get pulled apart by engineers now for perpetuating a common misconception...)


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

Here's a quick video pointing out the benefits of a LSD and why an open differential causes issues.


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## tmitch45 (Jul 29, 2006)

It looks to me like winter tyres as mentioned will provide the increased grip and safety I'm after more than an LSD or from what I've seen even a 4wd car on summer tyres.


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## robertdon777 (Nov 3, 2005)

If you want to get the back end out you will need a LSD, otherwise when exiting a sharp corner, the most likely outcome will be a big plume of smoke from the inside rear wheel (without TC on) as it spins looking for traction.

For road use a 340/440 with good tyres will not need one and you will be fine in RWD format. When you come to replace the tyres try to spend your money on a well known brand.... the Chinese makes will put you in a ditch when putting 320+ bhp through two pieces of plastic diguised as black rubber.


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## Harry_p (Mar 18, 2015)

An lsd has traction and control benefits whether you're trying to leave 11s on purpose or just driving briskly.

Open diffs and a decent chunk of power aren't a good match, and no traction control or 'electronic lsd' where the brake is applied to the free spinning wheel to send power to the other is ever anything close to a proper mechanical lsd.

Yes, if you want to go sideways an lsd will help, but it also raises the limit where traction is lost making it more secure and controllable up to that point.

We have a 316i compact, a 320i touring, an e30 m3 and an e36 m3. The two open cars with the least power and open diffs are far more likely to give an unexpected back end slip than the m3s, yet if you are in the mood and tempted to give the throttle a squeeze on a clear wet roundabout the lsd equipped m3s are far more progressive and controllable.

Modern sporty tyres are pretty terrible in snow regardless of driven wheels, but rwd will tend to struggle more because you don't have the grip to get any weight transfer onto the rear wheels to give them more grip. A set of winter wheels/ tyres is a good idea if you have to rely on your car all year round. I drive my 320bhp m3 all year round and have only for the last couple of years used all season tyres over the winter months as we don't tend to get enough snow for long enough to make full on winter tyres worth it.


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## ollienoclue (Jan 30, 2017)

If you are seriously buying a car with a grunty engine, then to be honest you are not doing yourself any favours by electing to drive it without equipping it with a proper diff. Otherwise you are basically letting the engine be dominated by electronics who will rule over it with an iron fist and simply put the brakes on, which basically emasculates it unless you are going in a straight line on a dual carriage way, which sort of defeats the object of having a 6 cylinder beast in the first place cause a 1.8 oil burner can do that.

I am not sure of the exact design used by BMW but there are various about, they can give some advantages in stability and traction, even in every day driving, and of course when you are driving in a spirited manner. It also nice to know and feel you are having an additional layer of control in your hands, which combines nicely with your no doubt monster tyres and impeccable BMW chassis balance.

As others have stated, you do not need to fear (most) rear drive cars, most manufacturers have refined suspension and chassis control to a fine art, and modern tyres/wheels are all designed with these whopper engines in mind. So I would not go electing to have an xDrive variant for British roads unless I intended to take the thing to the Alps routinely skiing or something, and if you do that, you will want proper winter tyres fitted for the duration anyway.

Having come from the Subaru camp some years ago, I can tell you that I never bothered with winter tyres, but also I never got stuck on a hill or anything, but I did just stay at home when it got that deep that it was nonsensical- you don't have any control over _other people_ crashing into you. There were occasions where I was forced to admit defeat and go another way home, but that was for the same reason anyone here would be- when the road is blocked by cars, vans and trucks all ditched or on their sides, for which 4 wheel drive or tracks won't help a jot. Does focus the mind a lot on taking the driving job seriously though.

I would also advise people to be wary of having a 4wd car when the weather is bad. Maybe I am alone in this but the 4 wheel drive factor does tend to build the image of invincibility in your mind sometimes. Which is basically false as unless you have winter tyres the only real advantage you have over regular joes in a normal car is that you can keep going moving when others cannot. 4 wheel drive has limited use in stopping any different to normal cars, particularly when going downhill and has some use in stability but I was still wary of ice as opposed to snow.

Also I would point out that if you want to invoke various flavours of over-steer you don't need an LSD or even a rear drive car itself, but it does help in various instances. A number of front drive hatches will slide out if you make them, and after a while of perching in the seat, I could get most of the cars I've owned to do it. I don't feel inclined to do quite so many daft things as I did in my younger years but I do say that anyone interested in driving does need to really buy the car that fits what they enjoy, so that even a grim Tuesday evening drive home in December can put a smile on your face if needs be.


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