# Auto enrolment pensions



## millns84

Hi all

Hoping someone will know more about this than me as I only know the basics and have just discovered an issue...

Our firm stated this scheme a couple of years ago and I decided to opt out as I keep private savings. However, I've noticed that I've been contributing again since August without being told so will be having a chat with our HR on Monday!

Granted, I should have been keeping better track of my finances the last few months but I've been horrendously busy!

I'm basically going to be opting out and asking for the full 5% they've taken since August. Could there be any issues with this? It just seems like it's a mistake but can they auto enrol you again without saying anything??


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## Marc2004

I think you’ll get automatically enrolled back in every three years unless you then opt out again. If you get enrolled but then opt out you will get the 1 month back ....if you forget obviously you won’t


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## millns84

Marc2004 said:


> I think you'll get automatically enrolled back in every three years unless you then opt out again. If you get enrolled but then opt out you will get the 1 month back ....if you forget obviously you won't


Sounds like an issue then as I'm sure they only started in 2016... I'll have a word either way.


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## Marc2004

Good practice would be to at least tell you that you are being re enrolled to give you the option to opt out. Hope it turns out ok:thumb:


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## millns84

Just a quick update.

I've discussed this with a colleague this morning who know a bit more about the scheme.

Our firm introduced this last August (I thought it was 2016 previously - Guess it makes little to no difference!) and has used staggered contributions - 1% up to April, 3% thereafter until August when they went up to 5%.

He was under the impression that you have to opt out of each stage or you're auto enrolled again, although I can't recall ever being told that or seeing any notification regarding being auto enrolled again in August.

I've dropped our HR guys a line now, seems to be getting more confusing by the second!


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## Sam6er

I had the same issue with my company. All i had to do was get the details for the pension company from HR and give them a call. They refunded my money direct to my account. Told HR not to auto enroll me but il have to do that every 3 years as its policy to auto enroll every 3 years.


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## pxr5

millns84 said:


> Just a quick update.
> 
> I've discussed this with a colleague this morning who know a bit more about the scheme.
> 
> Our firm introduced this last August (I thought it was 2016 previously - Guess it makes little to no difference!) and has used staggered contributions - 1% up to April, 3% thereafter until August when they went up to 5%.
> 
> He was under the impression that you have to opt out of each stage or you're auto enrolled again, although I can't recall ever being told that or seeing any notification regarding being auto enrolled again in August.
> 
> I've dropped our HR guys a line now, seems to be getting more confusing by the second!


Interesting. Thanks for this update. My wife has just started a new job and has also opted out of the pension scheme. We'll have to keep an eye out for any contributions.


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## Andy from Sandy

I believe all companies now have to offer a pension scheme of some sort.

Throughout my working life it was always best to join a company scheme as they usually make a contribution. In a sense free money or if you like a hidden pay rise to your pension pot.

Once you leave the firm it is your money not the companies and you should be in a position to transfer it if you have a better place to invest it.

Opting out because you don't want to make any pension savings is now definitely short sighted.


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## Marve

If anybody is not taking this from their employer, they'd better have a very good reason as to why not. 

It is not only free money from your employer, it is also free money from the government from the tax side of things. So double free money, there are not many things where you get that anymore!


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## millns84

Andy from Sandy said:


> I believe all companies now have to offer a pension scheme of some sort.
> 
> Throughout my working life it was always best to join a company scheme as they usually make a contribution. In a sense free money or if you like a hidden pay rise to your pension pot.
> 
> Once you leave the firm it is your money not the companies and you should be in a position to transfer it if you have a better place to invest it.
> 
> Opting out because you don't want to make any pension savings is now definitely short sighted.





Marve said:


> If anybody is not taking this from their employer, they'd better have a very good reason as to why not.
> 
> It is not only free money from your employer, it is also free money from the government from the tax side of things. So double free money, there are not many things where you get that anymore!


Our previous pension scheme was better. My employer was contributing 5% of my salary and it was optional whether you wanted to add to that.

I keep my own savings and investments. I don't see why it's a good idea to contribute to a scheme which going off the projections won't be of huge benefit if our generation is permitted to retire.

Let's face it, they're trying to compensate for the absolute disaster which is heading towards us in terms of the state pension, which isn't really sustainable. If they keep devaluing the currency the way that they are, it'll be hopeless


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## FJ1000

You’re turning down (tax exempt) free money from your employer? 

Seems mad to me.

If the issue is that you don’t want to have to match the employer contribution- you should speak to your HR and see if your contribution is mandatory- it may not be. After 2 years service at my employer, I’ve been able to keep the employer contribution but take mine down to nil.

Also - the point about not believing the scheme will make a return - you should be able to (to some extent) choose where the money is invested. All the pension providers have a variety of products, from low risk low return, to high risk and very variable options. The usual advice is that early on in your career is when you should take most risk in your investments, and scale that down over time (e.g. moving from equities into bonds).


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## Andy from Sandy

And one other point, pension contributions are taken before anything else so there is less money for tax and it lowers your NI contribution. Basically it is more tax efficient to be in the company scheme.


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## garage_dweller

> I keep my own savings and investments. I don't see why it's a good idea to contribute to a scheme which going off the projections won't be of huge benefit if our generation is permitted to retire.


Not contributing to your employers pension is madness, as above it's free money. No matter how many other saving and investments you have everyone loves free money.

Even if you only stuc k in £100 a month, and it's matched by your emplyer, that's £140 free every single month, for doing nothing.


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## millns84

FJ1000 said:


> You're turning down (tax exempt) free money from your employer?
> 
> Seems mad to me.
> 
> If the issue is that you don't want to have to match the employer contribution- you should speak to your HR and see if your contribution is mandatory- it may not be. After 2 years service at my employer, I've been able to keep the employer contribution but take mine down to nil.
> 
> Also - the point about not believing the scheme will make a return - you should be able to (to some extent) choose where the money is invested. All the pension providers have a variety of products, from low risk low return, to high risk and very variable options. The usual advice is that early on in your career is when you should take most risk in your investments, and scale that down over time (e.g. moving from equities into bonds).
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


It is mandatory unfortunately. If you stop the contributions, the company does.



Andy from Sandy said:


> And one other point, pension contributions are taken before anything else so there is less money for tax and it lowers your NI contribution. Basically it is more tax efficient to be in the company scheme.


More tax efficient perhaps, but a couple of hundred £'s a month less in my account in exchange for a vague promise of being able to retire and the government not devaluing the currency with quantitative easing to the point that their free money scheme means nothing :lol:



garage_dweller said:


> Not contributing to your employers pension is madness, as above it's free money. No matter how many other saving and investments you have everyone loves free money.
> 
> Even if you only stuc k in £100 a month, and it's matched by your emplyer, that's £140 free every single month, for doing nothing.


I'm not a socialist so don't have an affinity for free stuff... I just want to receive the maximum amount of the money I've worked for and invest it freely where I choose to. The whole automatic principle makes it seem like even more of a con.

On the flip side, I'd say it's madness to believe that these schemes make sense... Fast forward 30/40 years and I'm sure we'll see what a mess yet more government intervention has caused... I think it's much more sensible to buy bullion.


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## garage_dweller

> On the flip side, I'd say it's madness to believe that these schemes make sense.


So I presume none of your investments are based on stocks & sares then.


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## FJ1000

I think we need to go back to basics here, and separate a couple of issues.

1. Your employer is offering you money to put into a pot, tax free at the point of putting it in there, if you match the contribution.

I think we can all agree that’s a good thing.

2. Now - what happens to the money in that pot is up to you. You can invest it in shares, bonds, a combination of both, or you may even be able to buy a gold tracker. You just need to tell the pension provider.

I’d strongly suggest you find out who the pension provider is, and talk to them about your investment options.


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## millns84

garage_dweller said:


> So I presume none of your investments are based on stocks & sares then.


Property and bullion, it's all good. :thumb:



FJ1000 said:


> I think we need to go back to basics here, and separate a couple of issues.
> 
> 1. Your employer is offering you money to put into a pot, tax free at the point of putting it in there, if you match the contribution.
> 
> I think we can all agree that's a good thing.
> 
> 2. Now - what happens to the money in that pot is up to you. You can invest it in shares, bonds, a combination of both, or you may even be able to buy a gold tracker. You just need to tell the pension provider.
> 
> I'd strongly suggest you find out who the pension provider is, and talk to them about your investment options.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Meh, they're offering to match a fixed sum I've been forced to pay which is potentially good if a series of ambiguous conditions are met over the next few decades. I preferred it when they were contributing regardless and I wasn't being forced to.

I've not received any information as to what happens to the money in that pot - The whole process has been ridiculous with conflicting info all over the place. Even the colleague I spoke to who knows a lot more about it said it's really slapdash.

I mean, the whole 1%, 3%, 5% thing every few months and apparently having to opt out at each stage (albeit this is unconfirmed as yet) is patently ludicrous. HR still haven't got back to me after three days either

Ultimately, I'm not going to be contributing. More than happy to receive as much of my salary as possible and do what I want with it


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## fatdazza

Property and bullion lol.

Good luck with that one. Hardly the best historical returns.


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## Hugos

Under auto enrolment every 3 years from the staging date the scheme has to re enrol all eligible job holders. The employer has a responsibility to inform anyone that has previously opted out off the scheme what is happening and they have to be reenrolled back into the scheme at which point you can opt out again. You do not have to opt out each year or when an increase happens


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## millns84

fatdazza said:


> Property and bullion lol.
> 
> Good luck with that one. Hardly the best historical returns.


I'm sitting on a practically fool proof nest egg, not looking at buying pimped out mobility scooters in 40 years on a dubious promise of a decent investment if the government doesn't continually raid pensions, extend retirement age and crash the currency. :thumb:.

But yeah, good luck to all and their choices with their money :lol:



Hugos said:


> Under auto enrolment every 3 years from the staging date the scheme has to re enrol all eligible job holders. The employer has a responsibility to inform anyone that has previously opted out off the scheme what is happening and they have to be reenrolled back into the scheme at which point you can opt out again. You do not have to opt out each year or when an increase happens


You'd think I'd remember them notifying me then, especially if it was only in August. Still waiting on HR, almost as efficient as our admin guys at this point


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## garage_dweller

millns84 said:


> But yeah, good luck to all and their choices with their money :lol::


There's many ways to invest for the future - property, stocks & shares isas, storing gold in your cellar, the more varied the portfolio the better. But no investor with any financial sense will turn down free money.

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## millns84

garage_dweller said:


> There's many ways to invest for the future - property, stocks & shares isas, storing gold in your cellar, the more varied the portfolio the better. But no investor with any financial sense will turn down free money.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Really? I heard from a reliable source that property and bullion are hardly the best historical returns...

I'd rather put 5% of my money into what I want to rather than being forced into schemes, that's all


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## garage_dweller

I'd rather put 5% in and that magically becomes over 10% but each to their own 

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## FJ1000

millns84 said:


> Really? I heard from a reliable source that property and bullion are hardly the best historical returns...
> 
> I'd rather put 5% of my money into what I want to rather than being forced into schemes, that's all


Forced into a scheme?

Mate - you should really do some more research.

Find out who the pension provider is, and see what funds they offer.

My current scheme is with Hargreaves Landsdowne for example, and they have 2,500+ funds I can choose from, across all manner of asset classes, strategies, volatility, region etc etc. I'd be very surprised if there aren't gold and property funds in there. And the money to invest in them is given to you for free - and you don't want it??

Also - I have no idea what you mean about the government devaluing the currency etc. If you're convinced a UK based investment isn't for you - invest in another region, in. GBP share class that's currency hedged.

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## millns84

FJ1000 said:


> Forced into a scheme?
> 
> Mate - you should really do some more research.
> 
> Find out who the pension provider is, and see what funds they offer.
> 
> My current scheme is with Hargreaves Landsdowne for example, and they have 2,500+ funds I can choose from, across all manner of asset classes, strategies, volatility, region etc etc. I'd be very surprised if there aren't gold and property funds in there. And the money to invest in them is given to you for free - and you don't want it??
> 
> Also - I have no idea what you mean about the government devaluing the currency etc. If you're convinced a UK based investment isn't for you - invest in another region, in. GBP share class that's currency hedged.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


How would you define the term "forced"? I opted out and got auto enrolled against my will.

It's Aviva, but as I'm not interested I don't see any reason to waste time reading about something I won't be contributing to. The old scheme was great, 5% employer contributions regardless so I didn't have to contribute.

Devaluation of the currency occurs through quantitative easing amongst other factors, which our successive governments love. I could have tens of thousands that are worth sweet FA in 40 years whereas bullion and property I see as being of universal value.


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## shycho

millns84 said:


> I'm sitting on a practically fool proof nest egg, not looking at buying pimped out mobility scooters in 40 years on a dubious promise of a decent investment if the government doesn't continually raid pensions, extend retirement age and crash the currency. :thumb:.


I'm not sure why your concerned about the government, as most pensions these days are held with private companies, and can be taken much earlier than the state pension age. You seem to be confusing private pension contributions with the state pension.

You may want to do some further research into where your money could be going, in case some of the assumptions you are making are costing you long term.

As an example why would you look to invest £100 of your salary privately, when you could sacrifice that £100 (and through matched contributions and tax breaks) invest £220 into a pension pot that matches your risk/investment criteria (which could mean gold/foreign currency), which can be accessed later in life at an age you determine?

But kudos for at least having some plan in place, with an eye on the future. As not a lot of people do.

Just to annoy you as we tend to agree on most political points: What will your property investments do for you when Labour come in to power and confiscate 2nd properties from all the evil capitalists of the world?


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## millns84

shycho said:


> I'm not sure why your concerned about the government, as most pensions these days are held with private companies, and can be taken much earlier than the state pension age. You seem to be confusing private pension contributions with the state pension.
> 
> You may want to do some further research into where your money could be going, in case some of the assumptions you are making are costing you long term.
> 
> As an example why would you look to invest £100 of your salary privately, when you could sacrifice that £100 (and through matched contributions and tax breaks) invest £220 into a pension pot that matches your risk/investment criteria (which could mean gold/foreign currency), which can be accessed later in life at an age you determine?
> 
> But kudos for at least having some plan in place, with an eye on the future. As not a lot of people do.
> 
> Just to annoy you as we tend to agree on most political points: What will your property investments do for you when Labour come in to power and confiscate 2nd properties from all the evil capitalists of the world?


Well let's face it, they could legislate their fingers into those pensions if they wanted to although I'd admit that I wouldn't consider it very likely without drastic changes.

The main concern is devaluation of the currency - It's all well and good to put £x away, but if in the future those same £'s are worth less (or considerably less), then you're done for. Just look at how insufficient the state pension is, which was intended to be fantastic in the 60's. Property and bullion however have universal value.

If Labour get in, I suppose we'd be more preoccupied with complying with all the behaviour laws, making sure we don't have any illegal opinions etc. Or maybe even making sure we're not starving to death as is always the case with beautiful, progressive, socialism. That is, of course, on the basis that the Tories aren't just controlled opposition and we don't actually have any control or say in the direction the country is going :lol:


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## garage_dweller

> The main concern is devaluation of the currency - It's all well and good to put £x away, but if in the future those same £'s are worth less (or considerably less), then you're done for.


I don't think you're grasping the fact the you can invest the conributions into your pension pot exactly how you please, so a portfolio consisting of gold and property for example. So the only difference between what you're doing is that with a pension you would have more than twice as much.

Nothing wrong with you investing in property, but you'll obvioulsy have capital gains tax to pay whn you sell or tax to pay if you're renting the properties out.

If you speak to any wealth manager or financial advisor they will always say invest as much as you can into your pension. It's tax efficent and it's free money.


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## FJ1000

You can lead a horse to water....


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## millns84

garage_dweller said:


> I don't think you're grasping the fact the you can invest the conributions into your pension pot exactly how you please, so a portfolio consisting of gold and property for example. So the only difference between what you're doing is that with a pension you would have more than twice as much.
> 
> Nothing wrong with you investing in property, but you'll obvioulsy have capital gains tax to pay whn you sell or tax to pay if you're renting the properties out.
> 
> If you speak to any wealth manager or financial advisor they will always say invest as much as you can into your pension. It's tax efficent and it's free money.


I fully grasp it, I just don't want to and don't have to comply with all the other lemmings :lol:

I just want the money I earn not to be stolen??



FJ1000 said:


> You can lead a horse to water....
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


:lol: Who'd have thought people would be so bothered with what someone else does with their own money eh?


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## FJ1000

millns84 said:


> :lol: Who'd have thought people would be so bothered with what someone else does with their own money eh?


Your choice - It's just not everyday you see someone saying no to free money! We're just trying to help you - as I don't think you do fully grasp it at all!

I think the real issue is that you don't want to see your salary reduced, by having to make contributions yourself? It was fine when it was all paid by your employer.

The stuff about the scheme not having any value in 40 years time isn't valid, as you have a wide choice over what you invest in.

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## millns84

FJ1000 said:


> Your choice - It's just not everyday you see someone saying no to free money! We're just trying to help you - as I don't think you do fully grasp it at all!
> 
> I think the real issue is that you don't want to see your salary reduced, by having to make contributions yourself? It was fine when it was all paid by your employer.
> 
> The stuff about the scheme not having any value in 40 years time isn't valid, as you have a wide choice over what you invest in.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Salary reduction/taking money without permission.

The point is really simple, I want to do what I want with my money. When they were happy to contribute without my matching that I didn't give two monkeys about how much they threw in there.

Let's come back to the thread in 40 years and see how much of a mess pensions are in.


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## Marve

millns84 said:


> Let's come back to the thread in 40 years and see how much of a mess pensions are in.


And with that comment, you make it clear how much you are missing the point. This is not about pensions, it is about investments. You are saying you want to take your £100 and put it into property and bullion. That's great and we're all delighted you are trying to do something to plan for the future. I am sure your aim is to make that £100 worth as much as possible in 40 years time, right? Well how about if your £100 was worth £220 immediately, overnight before you have even chosen to invest it anywhere? That's a pretty awesome headstart, isn't it? Now all you need to do is speak to Aviva and ensure your £220 is invested into something you are comfortable with, job done.


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## garage_dweller

Out of interest how does this investing in bullion thing work? I presume as you use the term 'bullion' rather than gold you actually buy bullion, as opposed to the usual investments where you don't physically have anything.. 

Do you then store it in a safe deposit box?


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## millns84

Marve said:


> And with that comment, you make it clear how much you are missing the point. This is not about pensions, it is about investments. You are saying you want to take your £100 and put it into property and bullion. That's great and we're all delighted you are trying to do something to plan for the future. I am sure your aim is to make that £100 worth as much as possible in 40 years time, right? Well how about if your £100 was worth £220 immediately, overnight before you have even chosen to invest it anywhere? That's a pretty awesome headstart, isn't it? Now all you need to do is speak to Aviva and ensure your £220 is invested into something you are comfortable with, job done.


Well no, that's not true at all is it? I've never said I'd otherwise invest the money they're stealing; rather that I want to invest my money in whatever I want (which I do) and that I want to receive my entire salary.

I think it's patently clear at this point that several individuals are actually completely misunderstanding what I want from this; literally my whole salary. It was never a case of "my investments are better than your Ponzi scheme" (although they are); it's my freedom to do as I please with the money I earn.

If the above isn't clear at this point, then I'm not sure how many more ways I can re-phrase it.

If you like your scheme, great... All the best. If you don't like mine, I'll manage to find a way to sleep at night. :thumb:



garage_dweller said:


> Out of interest how does this investing in bullion thing work? I presume as you use the term 'bullion' rather than gold you actually buy bullion, as opposed to the usual investments where you don't physically have anything..
> 
> Do you then store it in a safe deposit box?


I physically buy it - It's not just gold though, silver and platinum are also available. You can buy by the gram or there's numerous coins of varying value.

There are investment schemes that required high (that's subjective I guess) minimum investments but I know very little about that.

NB - Royal Mint have a 20% Black Friday sale on. :thumb:


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## garage_dweller

> It was never a case of "my investments are better than your Ponzi scheme" (although they are);


But they're not better, our ponzi schemes as you call them increase the monthly investment by 120%, if a basic rate tax payer, every month before any increase from the investment. But as you say, you're happy and it's your money so that's all that matters.

So you have bit of precious metals you need to store somewhere? I presume you stuff them in the mattress


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## millns84

garage_dweller said:


> But they're not better, our ponzi schemes as you call them increase the monthly investment by 120%, if a basic rate tax payer, every month before any increase from the investment. But as you say, you're happy and it's your money so that's all that matters.
> 
> So you have bit of precious metals you need to store somewhere? I presume you stuff them in the mattress


Well yeah your ponzi scheme sounds great until the **** hits the fan and it's as much use an Anne Frank's drum kit.

Deposit box at the bank, costs a few hundred a year.


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## garage_dweller

> Well yeah your ponzi scheme sounds great until the **** hits the fan and it's as much use an Anne Frank's drum kit


And you think if that happens the price of property and precious metal will be unaffected? History shows that's not the case.


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## millns84

garage_dweller said:


> And you think if that happens the price of property and precious metal will be unaffected? History shows that's not the case.


I didn't say that did I?

Damn history, showing us stuff.


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## FJ1000

You’d be better off NOT saving that £100 a month (or whatever the figure is) by buying gold.

Instead, accept £100 a month coming out of your salary. That’ll be more than doubled by your employer. Invest that sum in a gold ETF in your pension.

Better yet, diversify across several asset classes. Equities, bonds, property, commodities.

By the way, it’s not theft if they’re giving you money.


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## Hugos

> [You'd think I'd remember them notifying me then, especially if it was only in August. Still waiting on HR, almost as efficient as our admin guys at this point*QUOTE]
> 
> I would go and speak to the provider. First thing I would ask is when the scheme staged and I would check if there has been a Re enrolment recently. Ultimately if you have opted out and they have made an unlawful deduction then they should refund you


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## millns84

So I've finally heard back from HR, only took a week and a half against their target of 72hrs...

I'll copy and paste their email:-

"In august we introduced a new pension contribution of 5% with employer contributions at 3%. Under government legislation, we have to opt every employee in to a new scheme – regardless of previous opt out. You will be able to opt out in the benefit window that opens at the end of this week."

... So basically, just throw everyone in again seemingly without notice... and I'm sure they were meant to match the contribution! What a great system :lol:

This is the point where I pull our director and have an aneurism at him, which will hopefully have the knock on effect of him having an aneurism at HR and the money being refunded. 

I spoke to him about it last Friday in any event and he asked that I keep him updated. He did indicate that it's just a matter of having it refunded but I'm guessing if they did let me know about the continual auto enrolment and I accidentally deleted the email or whatever, then I'll be stuck with having to opt out again at the end of the week and will be approx. £850.00 down from August 

Watch this space!


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## Marve

millns84 said:


> I'll be stuck with having to opt out again at the end of the week and will be approx. £850.00 down from August


You're not £850 down, the money is in your pension, along with the 3% from your company, £510 and the tax break £170 from the government. So you now have £1,530 instead of £850. Do you see why the scheme is a good idea yet?!

Oh and if 5% of your monthly salary is £850, I make it that you earn about £204,000 a year. I think you should be a lot more clued up on your financial management and tax benefits if you are in the top 1% of earners in the country.


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## FJ1000

Marve said:


> You're not £850 down, the money is in your pension, along with the 3% from your company, £510 and the tax break £170 from the government. So you now have £1,530 instead of £850. Do you see why the scheme is a good idea yet?!
> 
> Oh and if 5% of your monthly salary is £850, I make it that you earn about £204,000 a year. I think you should be a lot more clued up on your financial management and tax benefits if you are in the top 1% of earners in the country.


It'll be over a few months if I read that post right...("since August")

But I agree with the point you make. Saying no to free money, because you haven't bothered trying to understand the investment options, is just barmy.

Also - going postal on HR for following government rules (and for once government policy that will actually help you out) is barmy too.

Madness.

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## wish wash

I got auto enrolled and i must admit on the whole scheme of things, im clueless. I know its important to save for the future but when retirements 40 year away you dont take it as serious as you maybe should.


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## millns84

Marve said:


> You're not £850 down, the money is in your pension, along with the 3% from your company, £510 and the tax break £170 from the government. So you now have £1,530 instead of £850. Do you see why the scheme is a good idea yet?!
> 
> Oh and if 5% of your monthly salary is £850, I make it that you earn about £204,000 a year. I think you should be a lot more clued up on your financial management and tax benefits if you are in the top 1% of earners in the country.


Since August - Divide by four :lol:

"You're an idiot that doesn't understand pensions" > Primary school level maths. :thumb:

... So where is this money? Can I spend it on something I want? Deposit for a new car maybe? ...What do you mean I can't have it?



FJ1000 said:


> It'll be over a few months if I read that post right...("since August")
> 
> But I agree with the point you make. Saying no to free money, because you haven't bothered trying to understand the investment options, is just barmy.
> 
> Also - going postal on HR for following government rules (and for once government policy that will actually help you out) is barmy too.
> 
> Madness.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I don't intend to go postal at HR, but at my immediate director. What are they going to do, sack me for wanting to receive my entire salary and getting a bit upset when they take some without my permission?

This is basically a case of -

Steal some money - get told not to
Start stealing again because government says so

I'm sure if the scheme was so great they wouldn't force you into it.

In other news, I heard on the grapevine that a girl I work with is facing the same dilemma. You know, another one of those morons who wants to take home what they earn.


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## millns84

wish wash said:


> I got auto enrolled and i must admit on the whole scheme of things, im clueless. I know its important to save for the future but when retirements 40 year away you dont take it as serious as you maybe should.


That's a fair point. 40 years is a long way off... Anything could happen, including the currency being worth much less but don't listen to me :lol:

I think the amount of information we've had on this is pathetic, bearing in mind that they intended to chuck us all into this scam.


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## wish wash

I do know a few people that have opted out as they'd rather put the £100 odd a month towards being able to buy there house instead.


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## garage_dweller

millns84 said:


> ... So where is this money? Can I spend it on something I want? Deposit for a new car maybe? ...What do you mean I.


You could spend the money you get back on gold & property? It's less than you're pension provider could have spent the same things on your behalf but there you go 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## FJ1000

millns84 said:


> That's a fair point. 40 years is a long way off... Anything could happen, including the currency being worth much less but don't listen to me :lol:
> 
> I think the amount of information we've had on this is pathetic, bearing in mind that they intended to chuck us all into this scam.


Just because you don't understand how a private pension works doesn't make it a scam!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Marve

Look, I think I have a solution for this.

Let your employer take the £150 a month from you each month, speak with your pension provider and put the £270 a month into property and bullion funds. In turn, I will transfer you £150 a month, cash into your current account and you can do whatever you want with that. 

When you get to retirement age, transfer me your pension pot.

Everyone is happy then, right?


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## Marve

Oh and by the way, I don't know how many years you have until retirement, but as a guideline, assuming 6% annual growth, you will be giving me

£45k if it is only 10 years until your retirement
£125k if it is 20 years until your retirement
£270k if it is 30 years until your retirement

Still a scam?


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## millns84

FJ1000 said:


> Just because you don't understand how a private pension works doesn't make it a scam!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You hand over a heap of cash, the employer does too... Then assuming we're able to retire at all and this scam hasn't gone the same way as the state pension, you get a billion dollars and a Thai bride?

Sent from my Amazon Fire HD 10 using fingers



Marve said:


> Look, I think I have a solution for this.
> 
> Let your employer take the £150 a month from you each month, speak with your pension provider and put the £270 a month into property and bullion funds. In turn, I will transfer you £150 a month, cash into your current account and you can do whatever you want with that.
> 
> When you get to retirement age, transfer me your pension pot.
> 
> Everyone is happy then, right?


I don't think that'd work, it's mandatory 5% so I'd still be losing out. Where did you get £150 from?

I'd be more than happy if the bullion option meant that I physically receive it and the property option entails actually owning property but they don't do they?



Marve said:


> Oh and by the way, I don't know how many years you have until retirement, but as a guideline, assuming 6% annual growth, you will be giving me
> 
> £45k if it is only 10 years until your retirement
> £125k if it is 20 years until your retirement
> £270k if it is 30 years until your retirement
> 
> Still a scam?


30 odd assuming our overlords don't continue to increase retirement age to pay for ever increasing social spending.:thumb:

Yep, very much still a scam. Clear as daylight in fact... I'd be much more optimistic if it was opt in rather than opt out, that's what gives it away... Well other than the fact it's a government scheme that involves giving over loads of cash on vague promises of riches.


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## andy__d

millns84, your railing against sheeple, the Telly has spoken and trivial things like "the truth" dont matter once the telly has spoken,
give up with the brainwashed, nothing can be done for them sadly (until the telly tells them something new that is)

as for
wanting your salary paid to you so you can decide how you spend/save/invest it Too bloody right
Human Remains need sacking for all the harm they cause.
dont forget to charge them interest on the monies they have taken Without permission from your pay packets,


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## fatdazza

A tip to all,

leave millns84 alone and stop wasting your time.

He has his view of how the world will turn out. He may be wrong he may be right. He has firm views of this and is not prepared to change them.

Hell, 10 years ago, if someone told you they had invested their life savings in a string of numbers and letters (aka bitcoin), you would have thought them mad. Turns out that even if they sold the lot today (given recent falls) they would be a damn sight richer than most on here.


Sometimes strange thing come to pass and if you guessed right then good luck. It often happens that "betting against the herd" results in a bad outcome, but there is a chance that the bet comes off. Risk versus reward :thumb:


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## Marve

millns84 said:


> I don't think that'd work, it's mandatory 5% so I'd still be losing out. Where did you get £150 from?


Sorry, you are right, you told us your salary earlier. So it is £212.50 a month.

Not sure how you are losing out though. You let your employer take £212.5 a month and I will give you £212.50 a month back. You are sorted.

Though at that amount and assuming 6% annual growth for 30 years, you will be giving me £384,650. By the way, to get to that amount, you will only be needing to pay in £137,700


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## millns84

Marve said:


> Sorry, you are right, you told us your salary earlier. So it is £212.50 a month.
> 
> Not sure how you are losing out though. You let your employer take £212.5 a month and I will give you £212.50 a month back. You are sorted.
> 
> Though at that amount and assuming 6% annual growth for 30 years, you will be giving me £384,650. By the way, to get to that amount, you will only be needing to pay in £137,700


Do you know what the value of the pound will be in 30/40 years though? I mean, if we're all going to die horrible deaths due to Brexit then I'm guessing it'd be better investing in tinned food at least in the short term?


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## Marve

millns84 said:


> Do you know what the value of the pound will be in 30/40 years though? I mean, if we're all going to die horrible deaths due to Brexit then I'm guessing it'd be better investing in tinned food at least in the short term?


I don't understand the difference the value of the pound takes compared to your approach?

Listen, ultimately we are all really struggling to get you to see any sense here, so I am going to walk away from this thread now.

My point all the way through has been about trying to get you to understand that investing in the long term through a pension scheme has 2 major benefits. One is the free money you get on day 1 from your employer and the government. The second is the power of compound interest. That is where you earn interest on your interest over time. That is why it only takes £137,700 to get you £384,650 over 30 years.

There is no scam, no theft, no nothing. The concept of this has existed for years and before anything was compulsory, the only people who benefited were those who educated themselves or were advised wisely early enough. The reason it is now compulsory from the government is so that people are forced to face the reality of the benefits of it all and therefore will hopefully all be able to build a decent nest egg for retirement without relying upon the state pension.

Oh and for what it is worth, I am a partner in my company so am not an employee. Therefore I don't get any pension contribution from my firm and need to do it all myself. I make the most of the tax break element but i miss out on the company contribution bit. Hence why I cannot fathom why anybody else would actively seek to miss out.


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## millns84

Marve said:


> I don't understand the difference the value of the pound takes compared to your approach?
> 
> Listen, ultimately we are all really struggling to get you to see any sense here, so I am going to walk away from this thread now.
> 
> My point all the way through has been about trying to get you to understand that investing in the long term through a pension scheme has 2 major benefits. One is the free money you get on day 1 from your employer and the government. The second is the power of compound interest. That is where you earn interest on your interest over time. That is why it only takes £137,700 to get you £384,650 over 30 years.
> 
> There is no scam, no theft, no nothing. The concept of this has existed for years and before anything was compulsory, the only people who benefited were those who educated themselves or were advised wisely early enough. The reason it is now compulsory from the government is so that people are forced to face the reality of the benefits of it all and therefore will hopefully all be able to build a decent nest egg for retirement without relying upon the state pension.
> 
> Oh and for what it is worth, I am a partner in my company so am not an employee. Therefore I don't get any pension contribution from my firm and need to do it all myself. I make the most of the tax break element but i miss out on the company contribution bit. Hence why I cannot fathom why anybody else would actively seek to miss out.


The relevance of the value of the pound is really simple - If we hit socialist levels of inflation like Venezuela, what will £384k be worth? Things of universal value like bullion and property will always be worth something.

I think there are very different interpretations of "seeing sense" at work here. You also state that there is no theft... The very definition of theft is taking something without permission.

Happy for you to walk away :wave:


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## The Cueball

Awwww, don't walk away... this thread is hilarious.. it's been a great read!





For what it’s worth, I think the main issue here is the work had made a change and classed it as a new scheme, hence the auto enrolment.

If they just made it a change, then none of this should have happened…

Feels like it could have been sorted out with some better communication…BEFORE anything changed and any monies were taken/stolen/lost from any employee..


:thumb:


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## millns84

The Cueball said:


> Awwww, don't walk away... this thread is hilarious.. it's been a great read!
> 
> 
> 
> For what it's worth, I think the main issue here is the work had made a change and classed it as a new scheme, hence the auto enrolment.
> 
> If they just made it a change, then none of this should have happened…
> 
> Feels like it could have been sorted out with some better communication…BEFORE anything changed and any monies were taken/stolen/lost from any employee..
> 
> :thumb:


It has been a laugh :lol:

I agree completely, the communication has been awful but I think that's very typical of our HR guys. I can't imagine how difficult it would be if I had some major issues going on that needed their involvement.


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## millns84

So another small update...

Our firm has today launched a new benefits management system so I've been able to manually opt out by simply clicking a box. Magic... I'd give it another week or two before I'm enrolled again.

I've emailed HR back about whether we ever received confirmation of being re-enrolled but it'll probably be over a week until they respond.

Having looked at the pension plan, they have been contributing 5% which fills me full of confidence about HR given that they told me 3%. 

Our director has also been working from another office the last two days so I've not spoken to him. I just get the feeling if I get him to push this then it'll actually get sorted one way or another rather than taking weeks to get a short response from HR.

At least I know that no more will be taken.


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## Andy from Sandy

Do you already have a second property you are renting out or are working toward that and from there want to build a portfolio of houses for rent?

I am not sure it is a given that the value of the house will outstrip inflation when you come to cash in.

How will you convert your portfolio into an income when you retire?


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## millns84

Andy from Sandy said:


> Do you already have a second property you are renting out or are working toward that and from there want to build a portfolio of houses for rent?
> 
> I am not sure it is a given that the value of the house will outstrip inflation when you come to cash in.
> 
> How will you convert your portfolio into an income when you retire?


Yes, just a two bed semi in the suburbs of Manchester so nothing spectacular but it's a bit extra in terms of income and once the mortgage is finished it'd be a tidy lump sum, or even just a nice monthly income if we kept renting it.

Potentially considering a second in the next couple of years but we'll see how it goes.


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## garage_dweller

Remember you’ll need to pay capital gains tax when you sell the property. Plus you must be paying 40% tax on the earnings from the property at the moment. 

I still find it unbelievable that you’re turning down the opportunity to convert every £100 you contribute to your pension into £240 (up to 5%). 

Property can be more hassle than it’s worth at times, I had 3 but sold one last year and another at the beginning of this year as it’s getting to the stage that due to legislation and new tax rules its barely worth the bother. 

You do know that the £850 that was 'stolen' off you is now worth £2040? (excluding any investment growth)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## millns84

garage_dweller said:


> Remember you'll need to pay capital gains tax when you sell the property. Plus you must be paying 40% tax on the earnings from the property at the moment.
> 
> I still find it unbelievable that you're turning down the opportunity to convert every £100 you contribute to your pension into £240 (up to 5%).
> 
> Property can be more hassle than it's worth at times, I had 3 but sold one last year and another at the beginning of this year as it's getting to the stage that due to legislation and new tax rules its barely worth the bother.
> 
> You do know that the £850 that was 'stolen' off you is now worth £2040? (excluding any investment growth)
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You mean the government want a huge slice of something I've worked my **** off for... even when I've paid it off myself? Imagine my shock.

Shame that £2,040.00 isn't accessible eh? By the time I can get to it, maybe it'll be enough to buy a Big Mac.


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## garage_dweller

millns84 said:


> You mean the government want a huge slice of something I've worked my **** off for... even when I've paid it off myself? Imagine my shock.
> 
> Shame that £2,040.00 isn't accessible eh? By the time I can get to it, maybe it'll be enough to buy a Big Mac.


Yeh it's similar to going to work, you do the work, the government take a slice of your pay.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## FJ1000

millns84 said:


> You mean the government want a huge slice of something I've worked my **** off for... even when I've paid it off myself? Imagine my shock.
> 
> Shame that £2,040.00 isn't accessible eh? By the time I can get to it, maybe it'll be enough to buy a Big Mac.


Woah woah woah - you really don't get this do you? Your money is not going to the government.

They are giving you money (through tax relief) and so are your employer. You then invest it in your choice of investment fund. When you retire - you can access it

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## garage_dweller

I think he's talking about my reference to him paying capital gains tax when he sells the property he rents out. 
He's not keen that he has to pay tax on earnings, but also not keen when HMRC want to give him money back


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## millns84

garage_dweller said:


> I think he's talking about my reference to him paying capital gains tax when he sells the property he rents out.
> He's not keen that he has to pay tax on earnings, but also not keen when HMRC want to give him money back


Mainly what he said ^^

Well... Governments don't have any money - They steal it from their people to do what they want with it. You know, you pay income tax, then whatever you want to buy you have to pay another 20% out of what they didn't take.

But wait, you wan't to buy a car? Tax. Now do you want to put fuel it? Tax.

Managed to save enough to buy a house with what we allowed you to keep eh? Tax. And what's that? You bought a second home to rent out? Tax.

Then upon death, you want to hand over everything you've paid tax on to your kids? Well, you know what? Tax.

People = tax assets.

As for being given money, I'll politely decline the invitation to take part in that particular Ponzi scheme, as you're no doubt aware by now :lol:


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## Marve

millns84 said:


> Mainly what he said ^^
> 
> Well... Governments don't have any money - They steal it from their people to do what they want with it. You know, you pay income tax, then whatever you want to buy you have to pay another 20% out of what they didn't take.
> 
> But wait, you wan't to buy a car? Tax. Now do you want to put fuel it? Tax.
> 
> Managed to save enough to buy a house with what we allowed you to keep eh? Tax. And what's that? You bought a second home to rent out? Tax.
> 
> Then upon death, you want to hand over everything you've paid tax on to your kids? Well, you know what? Tax.
> 
> People = tax assets.
> 
> As for being given money, I'll politely decline the invitation to take part in that particular Ponzi scheme, as you're no doubt aware by now :lol:


You appreciate that the government aren't a profit making organisation, aren't you? The taxes you claim to be so disgusted with are spent on things you feel the benefit of living in a civilised society.


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## FJ1000

millns84 said:


> As for being given money, I'll politely decline the invitation to take part in that particular Ponzi scheme, as you're no doubt aware by now :lol:


I had a browse of the Aviva pension site. There are 1600+ investment funds you can choose from, from a variety of asset managers. The funds included ~50 when I searched for "gold" and I can't remember how many property ones.

What makes you think they're all Ponzi schemes? Even the ones that are investing in the same assets you are?

I am aware is that you're cynical of the Government. Fair - I am too, especially the current crop.

However - the government's involvement in this is just to mandate that employers have to help their employees save for retirement. They're not involved in what the money invests in. You can even put it in funds that are as good as cash (0 risk, close to 0 return) if you wanted to.

It seems you've combined your cynicism of the Government with a few buzzwords that you don't really understand, and are dismissing this without giving it a chance. I'd strongly advise you to call up Aviva and ask to speak to an advisor - in a one on one meeting if possible....because, you really don't get it. What have you got to lose?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## millns84

Marve said:


> You appreciate that the government aren't a profit making organisation, aren't you? The taxes you claim to be so disgusted with are spent on things you feel the benefit of living in a civilised society.


Really? There's not much that's civilised about confiscating people's assets at gunpoint and spending it on bombs, drones and wars.



FJ1000 said:


> I had a browse of the Aviva pension site. There are 1600+ investment funds you can choose from, from a variety of asset managers. The funds included ~50 when I searched for "gold" and I can't remember how many property ones.
> 
> What makes you think they're all Ponzi schemes? Even the ones that are investing in the same assets you are?
> 
> I am aware is that you're cynical of the Government. Fair - I am too, especially the current crop.
> 
> However - the government's involvement in this is just to mandate that employers have to help their employees save for retirement. They're not involved in what the money invests in. You can even put it in funds that are as good as cash (0 risk, close to 0 return) if you wanted to.
> 
> It seems you've combined your cynicism of the Government with a few buzzwords that you don't really understand, and are dismissing this without giving it a chance. I'd strongly advise you to call up Aviva and ask to speak to an advisor - in a one on one meeting if possible....because, you really don't get it. What have you got to lose?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I think you're approaching this from the wrong angle. Yes, you can invest in bullion and property through Aviva and I've dealt with this earlier in the thread.

Unless I receive that bullion physically, not interested. And the type of property investment I'm talking about is owning my own home and the house I rent out. This type of investment isn't compatible with the pension scheme.

I appreciate that people have a tendency to denigrate anyone whose beliefs and values are different to their own, or in this case wildly different. You might say I'm using buzzwords that I don't understand but I might reply with something about lemmings, Ponzi schemes or mugs. Whatever, it's completely inconsequential... Lets see how things work out - I'm more than happy to dig up this thread in the mid-2050's and we'll see how we're all doing.

I'm now out of the pension scheme anyway and won't be re-entering.


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## FJ1000

Alrighty. I tried to do my good deed!

All the best


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Andy from Sandy

At least millns has a plan. A lot of people have no forethought to the future.

A couple of my Saturday friends who are self employed are using properties for their pension funds.


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## SadlyDistracted

millns84 said:


> Really? There's not much that's civilised about confiscating people's assets at gunpoint and spending it on bombs, drones and wars.
> 
> That depends on who's making the profit... all the companies lobbying the 'government' for they way 'they' want it, which of course is always better for you and I ???
> And of course the wealth is always (fairly) distributed and not just a case of the fat getting fatter (and manoeuvring their ill gotten gains out of this country)...
> 
> At least the bomb and drone manufactures make money and pay tax (in some cases...) and employ people, hopefully in our own country (and not the US), so help keep our economy stumbling on.
> 
> ?


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## millns84

SadlyDistracted said:


> millns84 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Really? There's not much that's civilised about confiscating people's assets at gunpoint and spending it on bombs, drones and wars.
> 
> That depends on who's making the profit... all the companies lobbying the 'government' for they way 'they' want it, which of course is always better for you and I ???
> And of course the wealth is always (fairly) distributed and not just a case of the fat getting fatter (and manoeuvring their ill gotten gains out of this country)...
> 
> At least the bomb and drone manufactures make money and pay tax (in some cases...) and employ people, hopefully in our own country (and not the US), so help keep our economy stumbling on.
> 
> ?
> 
> 
> 
> Blimey, I thought we were going to leave this thread for 20 years, not one :lol:
> 
> It's an interesting point you made though. Only the other day I saw something about the US wanting to do away with F-35's because they're not living up to expectations but the amount of employment invested in their manufacture is huge.
> 
> So how are you all feeling about your pensions with the threat of a Labour government dipping their hands in?
Click to expand...


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## fatdazza

millns84 said:


> SadlyDistracted said:
> 
> 
> 
> Blimey, I thought we were going to leave this thread for 20 years, not one :lol:
> 
> It's an interesting point you made though. Only the other day I saw something about the US wanting to do away with F-35's because they're not living up to expectations but the amount of employment invested in their manufacture is huge.
> 
> So how are you all feeling about your pensions with the threat of a Labour government dipping their hands in?
> 
> 
> 
> Saw the thread resurrection and was expecting you :lol:
> 
> As a BTL owner are you concerned how comrade Corbyn et al, might appropriate your retirement nest egg.
Click to expand...


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## millns84

fatdazza said:


> millns84 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Saw the thread resurrection and was expecting you :lol:
> 
> As a BTL owner are you concerned how comrade Corbyn et al, might appropriate your retirement nest egg.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, absolutely. But you know, I'm just a rich Tory rubbing my hands together... Not as if I've done 12hr days for the past nearly 13 years together with some good luck!
> 
> I suspect we might starve under a socialist dictatorship anyway, so whether Comrade Corbyn steals everything I've got becomes a bit of a side issue.
> 
> Ironically, those hoarding food because of the fake news surrounding Brexit might last a bit longer :lol:
Click to expand...


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## fatdazza

I am heavily into the US market. That way even if it is heavily taxed by comrades, the tanking pound will offset any losses. :lol:

That said as long as they can keep BoJo and Smog in a box until the election, a win should ensue. Just don’t let him sit down with A Neil, it would be a worse car crash than HRH Charlie Chester’s interview.:lol:


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