# bit of a problem



## bidderman1969 (Oct 20, 2006)

Hi all

Got a strange problem, I guess most of it is all my own doing. The Optima had a “fuel in oil” problem, now I know it could be more than one thing, but after a few suggestion, I opted on the HPFP being the most likely culprit, so in November 2019 I decided to get a refurbished one that claimed to be “better than factory”, had it changed, the “diesel in oil” situation improved a little, but now I’m sure it really is the DPF being really full of ash and will get it chemically cleaned out I think.

However, the car stopped working the other day, a Sunday when it had been hot every other day and this day decided to pee it down, no warning lights, nothing, loosened off an injector pipe to see if any fuel is getting through but nothing when turning the engine over, AA came out to it, pretty much did some random tests including hadn pumping the priming system where he said it went solid then as I turned the engine over it went soft, then kinda agreed it was likely to be the pump and towed it to the nearest garage which was about 500m away. The garage tested it Monday morning and said it was the HPFP, and that fuel was getting to the pump, but then no further. As the pump was under warranty I phoned them up, and they said that I had to get the pump back to them to check it over, fix it if they had the parts, then they’d send it back, this would have meant tying up the garage with the car, and me not working, so I located a secondhand HPFP, albeit a Hyundai one, same part number and same engine The garage the car was at couldn’t do the job, so I got it transported to another garage where they changed it, along with a neww fuel filter which I supplied. On picking up the car, it was fine to begin with, then before I got out of town, it stalled 4 times of which the last time threw up a “check engine” light I then phoned the garage to which they said to pop back, it never stalled on the way back to them. They plugged the car in, only fault was “low fuel pressure”, turned it off, and I drove home where it smelt a bit “diesely”, which I just put down to them having worked on the pump, also the car seems to give more mpg which is a little odd. Same day I thought I’d give it another try, but I’d noticed that before, it used to take about a second to turn over and start, this time it must have been about between 2 and 3 seconds to turn over and start, but then it cut out again, so second time it ran fine. When I investigated I noticed the fuel pump still wet, so cleaned it off, went for another drive, rechecked to see it was leaking a little, I tightened what I think is the feed pipe, and now its fine. 

The starting issue is bugging me now, I know this car inside out, I know if it has any quirks, a couple of times of longish cranking over before firing up I could live with and possibly put down to maybe a little air still in the system, but now it is annoying me as it still does it.

To me, it looks like a straight forward pump, that just builds up the pressure but it could it possibly be something to do with it coming of an i40? I know the same engine in that is “detuned” a little to give better mpg, is it possible???? 

this morning, i started the car, as usual, little longer than normal, reversed a little, stalled, wouldn't start, locked it up, make a coffee, came back, started then, even though it still cranks over longer than normal

Otherwise, what else could it be, can I do? No warning lights are on it, and drives fine when out and about


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## SteveTDCi (Feb 8, 2006)

Genuine or aftermarket fuel filter ? On some cars - usually Fords we will only fit genuine fuel filters. Kiundai we usually use Bosch. If you never had low fuel pressure before i'd still be looking at the fuel filter. Did you tell the gararge you cracked off an injector pipe ?


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## bidderman1969 (Oct 20, 2006)

SteveTDCi said:


> Genuine or aftermarket fuel filter ? On some cars - usually Fords we will only fit genuine fuel filters. Kiundai we usually use Bosch. If you never had low fuel pressure before i'd still be looking at the fuel filter. Did you tell the gararge you cracked off an injector pipe ?


crossland filter, same as I've had on there before tbh. yes, garage knew everything as i explained the whole scenario to both :thumb:

just stuck some Forte fuel treatment and will give it another good fun out soon, to see if it makes any difference, but could there still be air in the system somewhere?


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## bidderman1969 (Oct 20, 2006)




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## percymon (Jun 27, 2007)

Do you have an OBD plug in reader and a diagnostic phone app?

You may be able to see the dpf status via that ? Or at least see exhaust temps which would tell you when a Regen is occurring. Perhaps the car needs a good long high speed run to get the exhaust gas flows up, especially if you’re doing lots of low speed town driving.

You should be getting an amber and then red EML/DPF light if the regents aren’t working and you have a near full DPF. Does this engine use adblue? Adblue injectors can gum up over time and completely block.


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## bidderman1969 (Oct 20, 2006)

percymon said:


> Do you have an OBD plug in reader and a diagnostic phone app?
> 
> *no*
> 
> ...


*don't get them lights, and it doesn't have adblue, but i know DPF's can't burn off all the ash, and as the car has done 200K now, I'm guessing it'll need a refreshing chemical clean out*


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## bidderman1969 (Oct 20, 2006)

Just been for a spin, car won’t go over 3000 rpm now wether driving or standing still


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## percymon (Jun 27, 2007)

I suggest for the sake of £15 or so you get yourself a Bluetooth OBD plug in reader, plenty of free apps that you can use to read fault codes etc. Dependent upon the car and app functionality you may be able to see exhaust temps, fuel pressure etc


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## bidderman1969 (Oct 20, 2006)

The drive I had was over to Dads place, after I went in to see him, he cane out had a tinker, reprimed it again, and I said “give it a rev, you’ll see it won’t go higher that 3000 rpm“, flew up past it, he says “well that went right up over 4000“, I said “right get in”, went tanning it up the road and it seems ok for now :devil:

Seems fine now, really hoping that it was air in the system


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## bidderman1969 (Oct 20, 2006)

update....

went out for a drive again to my Dads, car again wouldn't go over 2800 rpm, so again we pumped the primer hand pump, restarted the car, and it revved again freely with no obstructions, we had our walk, got back to car, started car, and car revved ok until 100 yards, then again wouldn't rev higher than the 2800 rpm, so we stopped at a pub for a quick refreshment, when we went to leave, i again reprised it with the hand pump, and it drove home perfect again.










again, my gut instinct is the secondhand pump isn't keeping the fuel pressure up, does that sound right? is it part of the HPFP job to keep the pressure up within the fuel system?

just can't see it being anything else as it run perfectly before the reconditioned pump gave out


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## Caledoniandream (Oct 9, 2009)

You have a air leak somewhere, causing the fuel to run back to the tank.
Check all connections, check if the fuel pipes aren’t cracked.
Check if the filter is fitted correctly and there is no double seal at the top or the seal doesn’t sit correctly.


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## bidderman1969 (Oct 20, 2006)

Caledoniandream said:


> You have a air leak somewhere, causing the fuel to run back to the tank.
> Check all connections, check if the fuel pipes aren't cracked.
> Check if the filter is fitted correctly and there is no double seal at the top or the seal doesn't sit correctly.


That makes sense, I keep googling to see if it could be wether the system is bled properly when they did the filter


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## SteveTDCi (Feb 8, 2006)

It sounds like air is getting into the system. are there any leaks ? Personally i'd stick a genuine fuel filter on it and bleed the system then go from there.


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## bidderman1969 (Oct 20, 2006)

SteveTDCi said:


> It sounds like air is getting into the system. are there any leaks ? Personally i'd stick a genuine fuel filter on it and bleed the system then go from there.


or rebleed it? not had a problem with these filters before


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## Caledoniandream (Oct 9, 2009)

Seen before when they change the filter, the o ring gets damaged, or the old ring still sit there.
But as you changed the pump, my money would be on one of the fittings, or they damaged one of the fuel lines (hairline crack or so) 

The last option is that the pump internal leaks, but start looking for the cheapest repairs first. 
It is easy to damage a push on fitting, crack a fuel pipe or have a seal disturbed. 
It is one of the hardest faults to find, but please don’t start with money throwing at it, first look for the cheapest options. 
It can be something simple, it could even be a fuel pipe under the car, or at the connection on the tank.


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## bidderman1969 (Oct 20, 2006)

Caledoniandream said:


> Seen before when they change the filter, the o ring gets damaged, or the old ring still sit there.
> But as you changed the pump, my money would be on one of the fittings, or they damaged one of the fuel lines (hairline crack or so)


Trouble is, I can't really check as it's a bit tight in there, doesn't seem to be any leaks now, I'm sure there be a leak somewhere if it's a cracked pipe, if air could get in, I'm sure diesel would get out


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## Caledoniandream (Oct 9, 2009)

Not always will it leaks diesel, especially not if it is on the side where it suck fuel.
The pressure side leaks diesel, the other side sucks air in.
Check the fuel pipe on the tank, and the module on the tank.
Had one where the pipe was cracked in the tank, when the tank was full, it runs no problem, but at half it started to cut out.
Hairline crack i the stand pipe in the tank. 
New sender unit as the pipes connected on that sorted it.


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## SteveTDCi (Feb 8, 2006)

We have also seen it where the manual bleed pump fails and allows fuel back - that was a Peugeot i seem to remember. We have also had it with Bosch filters on Fords, they bleed and run fine, take them on a roadtest and they are fine, leave them in the corner awaiting collection then 1 hour later they won't start. We will only use Ford filters on them now.


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## Caledoniandream (Oct 9, 2009)

Go back to the start of the problem: car cut out you suspected the pump (I hope you kept that pump) 
And actually the new pump didn’t improve things.
Do one step back and assume it is not the pump.
You changed the filter, didn’t improve m do one step back and assume it is not the filter.
There was something wrong before you started changing things left right and centre.
As you have recently changed the pump for the fuel in oil issue, my money is on a disturbed fuel pipe, don’t know if Kia uses push fits, but sometimes there are little O rings in there who could be damaged, could be even half blocking the fuel line.
Check the line if it has been bend over (also check the return pipe) 
Than work the fuel pipes back to the tank, if you are lucky there is a hatch under the backseat / boot under where the connections are.
If you are unlucky it is under the car. 
Work systematically think back when it went wrong.
Fuel pipes either plastic, metal or rubber can crack and let air in the system.
Don’t know if Kia has a filter in the tank but it’s is worth to consider all things. 
In general garages keep replacing parts until it works (not all, some are very good) but don’t use a systematic approach.


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## bidderman1969 (Oct 20, 2006)

Caledoniandream said:


> Go back to the start of the problem: car cut out you suspected the pump (I hope you kept that pump) i couldn't, exchange unit
> And actually the new pump didn't improve things. it now runs
> Do one step back and assume it is not the pump. *but it was tested and the pumps failed*
> You changed the filter, didn't improve m do one step back and assume it is not the filter. *i had the filter changed at the same time as the pump*
> ...


 *totally agree there, and tbh, sometimes i wonder if they know mare than i do, i mean, if i had a bottomless pit of money, even i'd just say, change this, change that..... until it ran right*

i do appreciate all the help, but to really just sum it up, I changed the fuel pump for what i thought was a preventative measure, didn't work, the reconditioned pump ran fine for nearly 7 months, then failed, I've put a secondhand one one for now and got the fuel filter changed at the same time, and now it doesn't run right.

so, im thinking the pump can't see the filter as its the same one i've had on before, or badly fitted


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## bidderman1969 (Oct 20, 2006)

right, saturday night, went out, car didn't really run right, there was a background noise of like a faint on/off dull grinding, and eventually, it stalled again after losing all power, twice in a matter of 50 yards and threw on the EML, which i knew was to be "low fuel pressure", got home left it.

this morning as Dad popped round, we decided to bleed the filter with the hand pump, loads of air in the system, went out for the day in wife car, home late, took car for run to dads, ran fine except a background noise of like a faint on/off dull grinding, tried rebleeding where no air seemed to come out, inspected around the pump, and it looks to be leaking.....

took some pics, bear in mind these are looking up from underneath the pump...

can see a drip of diesel on the brass pipe inlet/outlet, don't know why there's a cable tie wrap thing around the pump?



























from the top


















started to drive home, back to limited revs again, exactly like before, turned round, went back and rebled it again, couldn't get any fuel through, so with the bleed screw open i started it again (started a little better this time if Im honest), and we just tightened the bleed screw up, and i drove home, perfectly


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## The happy goat (Jun 26, 2019)

The cable tie shouldn’t be there! Has the person that fitted the pump broken something and used that to ‘fix’ it?

It could be your problem


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## Andyblue (Jun 20, 2017)

Can’t help with your problem directly - but I would be asking why for the tie wrap, shouldn’t be there...


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## bidderman1969 (Oct 20, 2006)

went back to the garage today, was driving like in limp mode, so pulled and said to, i pressure one of the owners, "before i turn the car off, can you just come and rev it?", so he came over and revved it a little, so ii said, go flat to floor with it, and he did, and he looked at me and said "not a lot of them rev high anyway"



i had to admit that i seriously thought about shutting the bonnet, and doing a chargeback on the credit card and taking it to another garage, as i kinda knew how this was going to go 

so, i went through all the symptoms, how things were over the weekend, explaining about the leaks, and the pipe i had to tighten up because of the leak on top, and all the bleeding we have done, to which he said "yeah, does sound like air in the system", then showed him the "bodge" cable tie, where he said that the "clip was already broken", so instead of owning up to breaking the clip the first time around with the bodge up, he now admits they were never going to say anything about the clip being broken for the second time. 

then he just stood there looking at me and said "well, what would you like us to do about it?" 

so without thinking said, "fix it to run properly?" where they he said about the pump that i supplied to which i pointed out that it doesn't seem to be the pump, just the bad fitting, so he then said about getting some O rings and will call me within the hour, (that's now passed  )

i then popped round to another garage when a lad looked at it, wasn't impressed with the workmanship, and said that's most likely the cause, and they should be sending me a quote for 2 hours labour plus the part

how it come to the point now where we have to inspect garage work before paying for stuff rather than finding out later on? :devil:


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## bidderman1969 (Oct 20, 2006)

this is when they changed the original one for the reconditioned one


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## bidderman1969 (Oct 20, 2006)

literally just heard from the garage, £96 for a fuel pipe, to fix their f up


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## no1chunk (Nov 18, 2012)

Just a little info on dpfs for future referance. Diesels produce soot which the dpf filter collects when the soot level goes high the system will require a regeneration which when the temperature is high the system will pull the soot out the filter and burn it off. Now this process turns it into ash which will never go so the dpf filters have a life span. I drive heavy mobile plant which have these fitted and the engines run from 5am monday to 12 sat with only being switched off for shift changeover or break times. In the 3 years we have had them we have gone through at least 2 dpfs per machine and our caterpillar shovel only just requiring its first filter after only 6k hours (they run on hrs not miles). The caterpillar has gone into limp mode so we cant use it another side affect of dpf problems. Now my mercedes e320 cdi ran perfect and still does but after i did my fuel filter change it did require slightly longer cracking than it did before i changed it and i did bleed the system as your suppose to.


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## The happy goat (Jun 26, 2019)

bidderman1969 said:


> literally just heard from the garage, £96 for a fuel pipe, to fix their f up


Name and shame! To many garages get away with shoddy work!


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## bidderman1969 (Oct 20, 2006)

The happy goat said:


> Name and shame! To many garages get away with shoddy work!


I'll expect they'll charge us labour as well


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## bidderman1969 (Oct 20, 2006)

looking at these pics again, it looks like the top one is half broken as well, where do i stand legally on this?

this second "repair" due to their muck up, looks like its going to cost me nearly £300


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## AndyN01 (Feb 16, 2016)

I see a formal complaint coming on.

First to the garage. You need to give them the opportunity to "put it right."

Are they a dealership/part of a group? If so then to the manufacturer/dealer head office.

And finally, small claims court - it's much easier than it sounds.

What a complete pain. I hope you get it all sorted out.

Good Luck.

Andy.


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## bidderman1969 (Oct 20, 2006)

AndyN01 said:


> I see a formal complaint coming on.
> 
> First to the garage. You need to give them the opportunity to "put it right."
> 
> ...


Cheers chap

No, independent garage, due to needing the car running properly ASAP, they are getting the replacement pipes and letting me know when they are in, worse thing is the car is going for it's council test on Friday


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## AndyN01 (Feb 16, 2016)

This might help:

https://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rig...-are-my-rights

And this:

https://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rig...ar-to-a-dealer

All the best.

Andy.


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## bidderman1969 (Oct 20, 2006)

AndyN01 said:


> This might help:
> 
> https://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rig...-are-my-rights
> 
> ...


afraid all i get is "The page that you are looking for could not be found"


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## AndyN01 (Feb 16, 2016)

Sorry, try this:

https://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/regulation/consumer-rights-act

Andy.


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## bidderman1969 (Oct 20, 2006)

AndyN01 said:


> Sorry, try this:
> 
> https://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/regulation/consumer-rights-act
> 
> Andy.


:thumb:

guessing this part is most relevant...

*If the service you're provided doesn't satisfy these criteria, you're entitled to the following remedies under the Consumer Rights Act:

The trader should either redo the element of the service that's inadequate, or perform the whole service again at no extra cost to you, within a reasonable time and without causing you significant inconvenience.
Or, in circumstances where the repeat performance is impossible, or can't be done within a reasonable time or without causing significant inconvenience, you can claim a price reduction. Depending on how severe the failings are, this could be up to 100% of the cost, and the trader should refund you within 14 days of agreeing that you're entitled to a refund.*


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## Darlofan (Nov 24, 2010)

bidderman1969 said:


> :thumb:
> 
> guessing this part is most relevant...
> 
> ...


I'd be quoting that at them definitely. You have the photos as evidence. Advice is, go in with all the knowledge and evidence, sound like you know what you're talking about and get them to sort their mess out for no cost to you.
If they start trying it on threaten with claiming for loss of business/time. Hopefully they'll do the right thing and sort it out.


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## AndyN01 (Feb 16, 2016)

Yes .

Teaching granny to suck eggs but make sure you keep records of everything and follow up anything verbal with a written/email/text confirmation of what's been said/agreed.

Good Luck with it & hope it all goes smoothly.

Let us know how you get on.

Andy.


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## bidderman1969 (Oct 20, 2006)

I just wonder about stating legal stuff before they start work on it in case they just refuse to do it


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## AndyN01 (Feb 16, 2016)

For now do your homework.

This is a good starting point (assuming it works ) https://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/advice/how-to-use-the-small-claims-court

Only once you've given them the chance to"put it right" should you go for Court action.

But it's always good to be well prepared .

Good Luck mate.

Andy.


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## bidderman1969 (Oct 20, 2006)

this pic looks like the top clip is broken as well ffs


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## Starbuck88 (Nov 12, 2013)

The clips do get very fragile and break easily but they shouldn't have hid anything from you that's for sure.


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## bidderman1969 (Oct 20, 2006)

Starbuck88 said:


> The clips do get very fragile and break easily but they shouldn't have hid anything from you that's for sure.


cheers, and that's my biggest gripe tbh :thumb:


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## bidderman1969 (Oct 20, 2006)

long story short.....

well, took the car back to garage, where they changed the fuel pipes they'd broken, car ran so bad, that it just kept stalling, and was awful to restart, now every time i hand primed the system, you can hear diesel leaking out of the pipes, must have stalled over 10 times in the town i taxi in, so i dumped the car at the kia dealership with key through the door, god knows when they can even look at it let alone fix it, and christ knows how much it'll cost me


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## Starbuck88 (Nov 12, 2013)

bidderman1969 said:


> long story short.....
> 
> well, took the car back to garage, where they changed the fuel pipes they'd broken, car ran so bad, that it just kept stalling, and was awful to restart, now every time i hand primed the system, you can hear diesel leaking out of the pipes, must have stalled over 10 times in the town i taxi in, so i dumped the car at the kia dealership with key through the door, god knows when they can even look at it let alone fix it, and christ knows how much it'll cost me


Deary me, well I hope they can fix it in a swift and economical way for you.


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## bidderman1969 (Oct 20, 2006)

Starbuck88 said:


> Deary me, well I hope they can fix it in a swift and economical way for you.


It's a nightmare fella


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## percymon (Jun 27, 2007)

Hopefully they a re a bit sympathetic to the costs and work on this between other jobs to keep labour bill down. I know when the ECU failed on the wifes Fiat some years ago the final bill was £550 - the car was many years out of warranty, and it took two attempts from FIAT Italy to send the right ECU (48pin versus 24pin), but the car was there for ca two weeks and they did many hours diagnostics etc.

Not sure how they might view the current fuel pump and the other garages workmanship, but the cars no use as it is - fingers crossed !


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