# I am the first....



## Admin (Oct 25, 2005)

But thats because I set this section up :wave:

Welcome to the Eco Friendly Product section. 

We want DW to be at the Pioneering front of Detailing and we believe this is an important section to the forum we hope you agree. 

DWC

Ps. There is a rumor BigPickle (Damon) has a fair knowledge of these products and I am sure he will be along soon to share


----------



## reign (Oct 6, 2008)

nice! 
will be keeping an eye on this section..... im always on the lookout for eco-friendly products. thanks!


----------



## Guest (Jan 15, 2009)

First the worst, as they say ;p


----------



## jackstemp (Nov 23, 2008)

im on the first page, that will do! 

eco - friendly? meaning products that wont give negative externalities...

how much more expensive? its dear enough as it is haha

Jack


----------



## iceman98 (Mar 8, 2008)

yeah first page also, will also be keeping a eye on this section looks interesting:wave:


----------



## andy monty (Dec 29, 2007)

So using Petrol as a degreaser is a no no 

Seriously though i think you can only make detailing so green.

think of how the stuff gets to you from the retailer for a start......

How about the Pro's traveling to clients with a full water tank that must use extra fuel?


----------



## jasonbarnes (Sep 10, 2008)

good stuff look forward to some input from the pros hopefully aswell:thumb:

1st pager to :lol:


----------



## Buck (Jan 16, 2008)

Guess you could extend this to eco friendly methods too...

rainwater harvesting is the only one I could think of at the moment though


----------



## Sandro (Mar 16, 2008)

hmmmmm quite interesting! good idea though.

so who advertises eco friendly products?


----------



## andy monty (Dec 29, 2007)

Sandro said:


> hmmmmm quite interesting! good idea though.
> 
> so who advertises eco friendly products?


think some of Bilt hambers range claims to exceed certain environmental criteria


----------



## dominic84 (Jan 27, 2007)

Excellent :thumb:


----------



## Dipesh (Oct 12, 2007)

am i right in saying this could be ways on saving water when washing the car? Hope so, we're on a water meter here!


----------



## dominic84 (Jan 27, 2007)

> am i right in saying this could be ways on saving water when washing the car? Hope so, we're on a water meter here!


Absolutely


----------



## scott170 (Nov 21, 2008)

This could be interesting and a little contraversial !!! :lol:


----------



## Paintmaster1982 (Oct 23, 2007)

Iam happy to settle for the second page haha

Go green products 

Rob


----------



## Paintmaster1982 (Oct 23, 2007)

Seriously though..maybe just keeping cars well waxed is the key issue...I washed, polished and waxed my car last week. It took a fair amount of washing as it was absolutely black it used nearly 2 buckets (2 bucket method). then after a week of driving and it was wash time again..with me waxing it last week it only used 3/4 of a bucket (again 2 bucket method) because the dirt wasnt as glued to the car as before because of the wax even though the car was just as dirty. 

Maybe this has nothing to do with helping the environment but if everyone all over the world who washed there car along with waxing it then imagine how much water that would save in the long run.

I think iam talking complete ****** but hey who cares haha i think you get what iam saying

Rob


----------



## andy monty (Dec 29, 2007)

Paintmaster1982 said:


> Seriously though..maybe just keeping cars well waxed is the key issue...I washed, polished and waxed my car last week. It took a fair amount of washing as it was absolutely black it used nearly 2 buckets (2 bucket method). then after a week of driving and it was wash time again..with me waxing it last week it only used 3/4 of a bucket (again 2 bucket method) because the dirt wasnt as glued to the car as before because of the wax even though the car was just as dirty.
> 
> Maybe this has nothing to do with helping the environment but if everyone all over the world who washed there car along with waxing it then imagine how much water that would save in the long run.
> 
> ...


not only that but a clean car creates less drag = less fuel


----------



## citizenal (Nov 5, 2008)

andy monty said:


> not only that but a clean car creates less drag = less fuel


Couldn't agree more, but the difference maybe very little gain. One example of this is my fish tank, constant 81 F temperature with algae on the walls, did a wipe down of the walls and the water flowed much better and the temperature raised up to 83 without turning up the heater.


----------



## Bigpikle (May 21, 2007)

Thanks Mr Chief - great to see DW looking at something that will definitely be a growing issue for pro's and amateurs alike IMHO :thumb:

I think we need to focus on 3 areas of eco-detailing:

*1. water use* - how to minimise the amount used

*2. waste* - run-off and pollution from washing activities, and product waste

*3. chemicals & products* - that are friendlier to users and contain less harmful ingredients

Its something that has been a growing passion of mine recently, and an area I have been trying to learn more about, both technically and from a legislation point of view. There is a growing marketplace of eco-products, and like all areas i am sure there are some good ones and some terrible ones, so I hope we can get lots of interesting ideas for products and techniques that will gives us options in these 3 areas


----------



## Dipesh (Oct 12, 2007)

yeah, i have 3 water butt's in my garden, i'd love to find out a way i can use this water. Currently its used to water plants!


----------



## GeeJay (Jun 10, 2007)

:wall: Back to the trusty 1BM it is then.

I'm in 2 minds about this section to be honest. On one hand it's a massive bonus in the fact we're looking at trying to save the environment as best as we can, and will hopefully encourage manufacturers to develop more environmentally friendly products. Also, I'm all for better techniques such as collecting water and chemicals after, instead of letting them run down the drain etc.

However, I fear that having a dedicated Eco forum suggests to the non-detailer that detailing is actually harmful to the environment (I'm not denying that products can cause damage, but we don't want to start giving ourselves a bad name, especially if the Eco forum is much less used than the others, thus shouting 'we detailers don't use the eco forum and don't care about the environment') Also any products and methods outside of this forum could have the eco-mafia after them for not being eco friendly. This could potentially put some companies out of business (would Collinite be as successful as they are now without solvents?) I know I'm being drastic, but I'd hate to see eco friendly ways force companies to re-invent their products for the sake of one or two 'harmful' chemicals.

My other concern is that the Pro detailers who are not so fast to adopt these methodologies and products, maybe through not being able to afford them right away, could well suffer as a result of quicker adopters and advertising.

I like the idea of the forum, but it could have its drawbacks. I'll see how it goes


----------



## Bigpikle (May 21, 2007)

Dipesh said:


> yeah, i have 3 water butt's in my garden, i'd love to find out a way i can use this water. Currently its used to water plants!


I have 3 water butts and tanks in my garden also - I have used them exclusively for ALL my water needs for >12 months now. The key I found is to link them in series ie one feeds the next which feeds the next. Then the water in the 3rd butt is 99% free from any muck etc and is perfectly safe for car washing. The other 2 make ideal gardening tanks. I'll do a write up on mine as I get a lot of questions on it :thumb:



GeeJay said:


> :wall: Back to the trusty 1BM it is then.
> 
> I'm in 2 minds about this section to be honest. On one hand it's a massive bonus in the fact we're looking at trying to save the environment as best as we can, and will hopefully encourage manufacturers to develop more environmentally friendly products. Also, I'm all for better techniques such as collecting water and chemicals after, instead of letting them run down the drain etc.
> 
> ...


some good points 

Firstly, car washing has already been identified as harmful to the environment in some ways and legislation already exists to control how we should be working - its just that most people dont know what it is and it is not yet well enforced.

EVERY pro valeter/detailer in the UK is already subject to the legislation, so anyone who is slow to adopt the legally required changes will face an issue in the future, and rightly so IMHO. No different to any other industry or business where standing still = going backwards.... And the key thing is that is doesnt have to cost anything to do this, in fact my conversations with pro detailers in the US & Canada recently, who have gone MUCH further than we have to in the UK, have shown me clearly that it costs them LESS per car than the traditional methods.

I hope this forum will give us a chance to discuss ways this can be achieved for pro's AND individuals that want to move in this direction as well. Its not all about the law, but also about people who would just like to make a difference in what they do at home and I hope give information and options for people to choose from. I know that just the cost of foaming and rinsing my 3 cars on a water meter means I want to reduce my water use to an absolute minimum, regardless of the eco benefits that may exist


----------



## GeeJay (Jun 10, 2007)

Bigpikle said:


> Firstly, car washing has already been identified as harmful to the environment in some ways and legislation already exists to control how we should be working - its just that most people dont know what it is and it is not yet well enforced.
> 
> EVERY pro valeter/detailer in the UK is already subject to the legislation, so anyone who is slow to adopt the legally required changes will face an issue in the future, and rightly so IMHO. No different to any other industry or business where standing still = going backwards.... And the key thing is that is doesnt have to cost anything to do this, in fact my conversations with pro detailers in the US & Canada recently, who have gone MUCH further than we have to in the UK, have shown me clearly that it costs them LESS per car than the traditional methods.
> 
> I hope this forum will give us a chance to discuss ways this can be achieved for pro's AND individuals that want to move in this direction as well. Its not all about the law, but also about people who would just like to make a difference in what they do at home and I hope give information and options for people to choose from. I know that just the cost of foaming and rinsing my 3 cars on a water meter means I want to reduce my water use to an absolute minimum, regardless of the eco benefits that may exist


Thanks for your comments 

I am certainly all for changing my ways to save money and better help the environment. The key for manufacturer's here (especially in the current economic climate(oh my got I've said it before 10am!)) is to ensure they market their eco friendly products cheaper than other alternatives, encouraging people to save both money and the environment.

I'll be doing a lot of reading of this forum, and will welcome any changes and implement them the best I can. I look forward to reading (more) about your water butts and also what you mention about the savings people have experienced across the pond :thumb:


----------



## Jesse74 (Jul 19, 2008)

Bigpikle said:


> Thanks Mr Chief - great to see DW looking at something that will definitely be a growing issue for pro's and amateurs alike IMHO :thumb:
> 
> I think we need to focus on 3 areas of eco-detailing:
> 
> ...


Can't wait to read your insight about it then! :thumb:


----------



## Epoch (Jul 30, 2006)

Can we still wash V8 cars in this section or is it only the like of Toyota Prius'?


----------



## wozza-vrs (Apr 8, 2008)

Bought some natural alloy wheel cleaner yesterday to see what its like! They do a range of stuff starting from a quid. Have not tried the bits iv used but its ECO friendly! :thumb:

http://www.halfords.com/webapp/wcs/...earch&storeId=10001&catalogId=10151&langId=-1

http://www.halfords.com/webapp/wcs/..._productId_382057_langId_-1_categoryId_165682


----------



## Jesse74 (Jul 19, 2008)

For quite some time now, I've been using products to clean cars with which are all 100% biodegradable. My shampoos, snow foam, wheel cleaners, degreasers and even carpet cleaners are all bio and non-toxic and they work fantastic. If any of your are interested in them PM me.

Now I have a question about runoff water that's been on my mind for a while now and I'm curious to hear all of your opinions. When I'm cleaning a car with these products, the things that I'm cleaning (industrial fallout, oils from the road, brake dust, the list goes on and on) they go back to the same place from which they came... the ground (OK the brake dust comes from the car itself but we can't stop that from going to the ground anyway). So aside from cleaning a greasy, oily motor what's the harm if I clean a car and the runoff water goes to the ground? Let's say you clean it on the street and the runoff water goes down the sewage drain. Where else could you possibly put it if you don't recycle it? I mean really, if the products are bio and the runoff water can't go to the ground, that's like saying you can't drive your car when it's raining because the grime that's on your car will get on the ground. Also, what about the abundance of dirty towels we wash after cleaning a car? Don't all those chemicals "come out in the wash" and go to the sewage, as well?

I try to do my part and protect the environment as much as I can, but I sometimes feel that people are a _little_ to finicky about the whole thing and that the government make such a big issue about it because it's just one more thing to  with people about and to tax them for. I'd love to hear all your thoughts on this one, especially yours Damon !

Jesse


----------



## reign (Oct 6, 2008)

Epoch said:


> Can we still wash V8 cars in this section or is it only the like of Toyota Prius'?


:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol: leave it to you 

the thing with pro valeters... it doesnt have to be expensive to go green. even something simple as blocking off a storm drain, catching the used water, and disposing of it properly won't run you any more than around £50.00

Also, just some simple research regarding products prior to purchase will save loads. And I agree with the theory of waxing every car to help with water conservation. It makes total sense. A well protected car will not only hold it's value better, but will not allow nearly as much "pollution" to adhere to the vehicle. Win/win imo


----------



## Brazo (Oct 27, 2005)

Epoch said:


> Can we still wash V8 cars in this section or is it only the like of Toyota Prius'?


We'll not have such environmentally unfriendly cars as the Prius in this section!


----------



## Bigpikle (May 21, 2007)

Clever Nickname said:


> For quite some time now, I've been using products to clean cars with which are all 100% biodegradable. My shampoos, snow foam, wheel cleaners, degreasers and even carpet cleaners are all bio and non-toxic and they work fantastic. If any of your are interested in them PM me.
> 
> Now I have a question about runoff water that's been on my mind for a while now and I'm curious to hear all of your opinions. When I'm cleaning a car with these products, the things that I'm cleaning (industrial fallout, oils from the road, brake dust, the list goes on and on) they go back to the same place from which they came... the ground (OK the brake dust comes from the car itself but we can't stop that from going to the ground anyway). So aside from cleaning a greasy, oily motor what's the harm if I clean a car and the runoff water goes to the ground? Let's say you clean it on the street and the runoff water goes down the sewage drain. Where else could you possibly put it if you don't recycle it? I mean really, if the products are bio and the runoff water can't go to the ground, that's like saying you can't drive your car when it's raining because the grime that's on your car will get on the ground. Also, what about the abundance of dirty towels we wash after cleaning a car? Don't all those chemicals "come out in the wash" and go to the sewage, as well?
> 
> ...


Jesse

I have no idea what the rules might be in Hungary, but in the UK if you are doing this as a trade, it is quite clear and laid out in PPG13. Simply put, run-off from vehicle washing CANNOT be allowed to go into storm drains. It is classed as 'trade effluent' and MUST be disposed of in a suitable waste treatment point with permission of the water company etc that carries out the treatment. Either you need a way to collect it and dispose of it correctly (like the inflatable mat that PB use) or you need to use products that dont generate run-off in the first place.

In the UK, most storm drains in the street, run untreated into rivers, streams, burns, ditches etc and as such, chemicals like foams, wash solution etc must not get into these as they cause pollution or reduce the way that some oil separators work. Household sinks, toilets etc flow into water treatment plants, so avoid the issue, but as a 'pro' you cannot simply dump stuff in them without the agreement of the water company that operates them.

Its also not OK for them to be allowed to simply soak into the ground either. >70% of our drinking water still comes from underground supplies and these are easily contaminated by products soaking through to the water table.....

Its a hugely complex area for sure that needs more understanding and awareness for sure, and I hope that is 1 thing that can come from this forum


----------



## supercharged (Feb 1, 2008)

in this case we can consider Optimum NO RINSE as a friendly car wash solution. 2 gallons of water should be enough for an average car that is not too dirty.


----------



## Bigpikle (May 21, 2007)

Brazo said:


> We'll not have such environmentally unfriendly cars as the Prius in this section!


:lol:

perhaps we'll need an acid battery recycling guide in the future :lol:


----------



## Brazo (Oct 27, 2005)

Bigpikle said:


> :lol:
> 
> perhaps we'll need an acid battery recycling guide in the future :lol:


And the rest  http://clubs.ccsu.edu/Recorder/editorial/editorial_item.asp?NewsID=188


----------



## Epoch (Jul 30, 2006)

Which then of the 5 gear trio would be the most eco efficient?

Might be surprising also


----------



## g3rey (May 3, 2008)

Bigpikle said:


> Thanks Mr Chief - great to see DW looking at something that will definitely be a growing issue for pro's and amateurs alike IMHO :thumb:
> 
> I think we need to focus on 3 areas of eco-detailing:
> 
> ...


There is another important consideration:

*4. Transportation* - the distance and method used to deliver the upstream product from manufacturer to detailer.

To make the process viable we would obviously need benchmarks to follow and key performance indicators to assess the impact of eco-detailing and the methodology for improvements whether this is financial and/or environmental.

To consider the environment holistically we need to consider the existing impact and when adopting 'green' methods exactly how 'green' are they, i.e. does plastic grow on trees.

FYI In the world one person in five does not have access to drinking water; and incidentally two billion people do not have access to electricity, I don't suppose that Karchers sell well in those areas. Just a thought.


----------



## Bigpikle (May 21, 2007)

Brazo said:


> And the rest  http://clubs.ccsu.edu/Recorder/editorial/editorial_item.asp?NewsID=188


interesting article - knew they were pretty bad but thats a joke :wall:


----------



## Dave KG (Feb 23, 2006)

An interesting section definitely and one I will watch develop, and hopefully it is embraced with open minds as quite often environmental things are not!

I do also hope however that what is here will have scientific grounding and basis. Too often I read what can only be desacribed as utter rubbish from environmental loonies who base their arguments on pie in the sky nonesense rather than hard scientific fact. I know this is unlikely to be the case here as we are all a practical and sensible bunhc, but I will be eyeing things personally from my own rather scientifically critical approach - if something makes sense and is well grounded in fact, then I think this section will have a lot to offer the future of detailing.


----------



## Bigpikle (May 21, 2007)

g3rey said:


> There is another important consideration:
> 
> *4. Transportation* - the distance and method used to deliver the upstream product from manufacturer to detailer.
> 
> ...


thats another good point :thumb:

I do think that it does start to get nigh on impossible to consider every aspect of a products 'green' credential, or we would simply not do anything at all.

I do think things like buying products as concentrates for dilution yourself (saving materials and transportation of water etc) is a good way to go, but I'm not sure how we can really monitor every element of manufacturing and distribution through the lifecycle of a product.

I also think this is one area where the 'green' issue gets itself into trouble. It would be daft to avoid using ONR for example, that can reduce water used in a wash by 100+ litres and all the run-off etc, simply because it needs to be shipped over from the US in plastic bottles.

I think more sensible is to target areas that are easy to make significant differences in, and hit those. They are also areas where there is legislation to meet and cost savings to be had, as well as potential business benefits in the form of differentiation. IMHO Going green shouldnt be about suffering or doing without, but finding options to the way we currently do things that may have less impact so we have choices available.


----------



## Bigpikle (May 21, 2007)

wozza-vrs said:


> Bought some natural alloy wheel cleaner yesterday to see what its like! They do a range of stuff starting from a quid. Have not tried the bits iv used but its ECO friendly! :thumb:
> 
> http://www.halfords.com/webapp/wcs/...earch&storeId=10001&catalogId=10151&langId=-1
> 
> http://www.halfords.com/webapp/wcs/..._productId_382057_langId_-1_categoryId_165682


will grab a couple of bits next time I'm passing - have read some reviews on bits of the range but please post your as well


----------



## spitfire (Feb 10, 2007)

I'm a bit of a sceptic with all this eco freindly mumbo jumbo. Just how do you evaluate what is oris not eco freindly. I mean it's not as simple as saying it's biodegradable, is it? For instance, take carnauba wax as against sealants. Carnauba is a naturally produced ingredient so some might think great, eco freindly. Until you find out it has solvents and oils in it and the carnaubas been flown from Brazil. Planes and ships have been built to carry this stuff on it's journey excetra. 

On the other hand, that sealant product which says on the label that it contains polymers and so forth, and reading the label makes you winch, was produced two miles down the road and gets delivered by van. 

So what's the more eco freindly product, the carnauba or the sealant. I'm sure as hell I don't know.

The above was not meant to be a factual analysis, more just to get you thinking. I'll switch off the PC now incase I destroy the world


----------



## Bigpikle (May 21, 2007)

spitfire said:


> I'm a bit of a sceptic with all this eco freindly mumbo jumbo. Just how do you evaluate what is oris not eco freindly. I mean it's not as simple as saying it's biodegradable, is it? For instance, take carnauba wax as against sealants. Carnauba is a naturally produced ingredient so some might think great, eco freindly. Until you find out it has solvents and oils in it and the carnaubas been flown from Brazil. Planes and ships have been built to carry this stuff on it's journey excetra.
> 
> On the other hand, that sealant product which says on the label that it contains polymers and so forth, and reading the label makes you winch, was produced two miles down the road and gets delivered by van.
> 
> ...


Dougie - totally agree with you... I dont really know what products might be more eco friendly than others although I suspect Tardis may be slightly less eco friendly than some out there, and Colli might have the odd nasty solvent in there somewhere :lol:

BUT, using 150L of water to foam and wash a car is NOT good, when you can easily do it with 10-15L, and having that waste water run-off into storm drains DOES pollute, so there's a start for us anyway 

Like everything here, there are many options and answers, and I hope this just gives a place to look at a few that relate to becoming a little less polluting and using less of diminishing resources :thumb:


----------



## wozza-vrs (Apr 8, 2008)

Bigpikle said:


> will grab a couple of bits next time I'm passing - have read some reviews on bits of the range but please post your as well


The other good thing is you can peel the label off and use the bottles for other products! Im not expecting anything special but hopefully will be just as good as the turtle wax range and maybe autoglyms. We will see.


----------



## spitfire (Feb 10, 2007)

Bigpikle said:


> Dougie - totally agree with you... I dont really know what products might be more eco friendly than others although I suspect Tardis may be slightly less eco friendly than some out there, and Colli might have the odd nasty solvent in there somewhere :lol:
> 
> BUT, using 150L of water to foam and wash a car is NOT good, when you can easily do it with 10-15L, and *having that waste water run-off into storm drains DOES pollute*, so there's a start for us anyway
> 
> Like everything here, there are many options and answers, and I hope this just gives a place to look at a few that relate to becoming a little less polluting and using less of diminishing resources :thumb:


I'm not so sure about that either. I not sure about the facts on this but I visited a sewage department a few years back and the guy showing us round was explaining that once the water was treated it was safe enough to drink. Then again maybe it's different for water courses. Thought provoking though.


----------



## Bigpikle (May 21, 2007)

spitfire said:


> I'm not so sure about that either. I not sure about the facts on this but I visited a sewage department a few years back and the guy showing us round was explaining that once the water was treated it was safe enough to drink. Then again maybe it's different for water courses. Thought provoking though.


but most storm drains DONT go to a sewage plant - they go direct to rivers, streams, burns, ditches etc. I know mine do as I walked to it.... This is a big misconception IMHO. Not true everywhere but certainly most places....

Your household waste goes to sewage plants, hence the charge on your water bills :thumb:

Quote from PPG13:

_Understanding your drainage system is the key to preventing pollution. Most areas have what is known as a
separate drainage system where there are two types of drain:
• Surface water or clean water drains should only carry uncontaminated rainwater; they lead directly to
ditches, streams, burns, rivers and soakaways. Roof water, car park, road and some yard drainage is
usually connected to the surface water drainage system
• Foul water drains carry contaminated water (sewage and/or trade effluent) safely to a sewage
treatment facility, which is either owned privately or by the local sewage treatment provider. Any
system designed to carry foul water is called a foul water drainage system_


----------



## Jesse74 (Jul 19, 2008)

spitfire said:


> I'm a bit of a sceptic with all this eco freindly mumbo jumbo. Just how do you evaluate what is oris not eco freindly. I mean it's not as simple as saying it's biodegradable, is it? For instance, take carnauba wax as against sealants. Carnauba is a naturally produced ingredient so some might think great, eco freindly. Until you find out it has solvents and oils in it and the carnaubas been flown from Brazil. Planes and ships have been built to carry this stuff on it's journey excetra.
> 
> On the other hand, that sealant product which says on the label that it contains polymers and so forth, and reading the label makes you winch, was produced two miles down the road and gets delivered by van.
> 
> ...


I agree. I mean this topic will never end because one can always "trace back" the cause of why a product (or technique) is not eco-friendly, whether it's how much petrol it took to deliver it to how many Chinamen sweat on the machines making the product, which caused the machine to malfunction and blow a gasket, which in turn caused an oil leak, causing more energy to be consumed for working after hours to clean it up, etc., etc., etc. The never ending stooooryyyyyy, ahahhhhahhhaahhhaaaaa. I do what I can but soon that won't be enough... probably already isn't. :wall:


----------



## spitfire (Feb 10, 2007)

Bigpikle said:


> but most storm drains DONT go to a sewage plant - they go direct to rivers, streams, burns, ditches etc. I know mine do as I walked to it.... This is a big misconception IMHO. Not true everywhere but certainly most places....
> 
> Your household waste goes to sewage plants, hence the charge on your water bills :thumb:


I thought about that once I'd posted. lol. But at the same time lots of nasties get flushed down the sewage system and the end result is clean water, mostly produced by bacteria and oxygenation, but safe enough to drink.


----------



## reign (Oct 6, 2008)

the thing with washing cars is this:

cars get dirty. it's a fact. but it's not just ground soil. it's brake dust, chemical run off, and everything else spit up and migrated from all over the country by moving vehicles, which adheres to the car's surface. 

Now, when it rains, which is a natural occurrence, some of that dirt gets washed off the car, gets thrown onto the roads, and flows into the storm drains. Not really much can be done about that. HOWEVER>>> when you PW a car, you are forcing much more of that dirt off the car, onto the road, and down the storm drain. at least, this is how it was explained to me by the EPA when i rang to express my opinions about the new legislation. 

see, this situation is a catch 22, really. the pollutants on the vehicle will cause damage to the vehicle, and in the long run, actually add to the pollution problem, because of accelerated deterioration of the vehicle; So, it's best to wash it off. But, washing it off adds to ground/water pollution. (and EPA states that supposedly, even environmentally friendly products are harmful to the environment.)so, the easiest, and most environmentally sound option is to catch the used water, and dispose of it in a foul drain. But, the problem really still exists, doesnt it? because while some of the water can be salvaged through the filtration systems in the treatment plants, the dirts and pollutants still have to be put somewhere, (ie, usually buried) and doesnt it just sink back into the environment anyway? 

it is a tricky situation, but i guess long term, it's better to have as much of the contaminants localized rather than dispersed widely.


----------



## spitfire (Feb 10, 2007)

reign said:


> the thing with washing cars is this:
> 
> cars get dirty. it's a fact. but it's not just ground soil. it's brake dust, chemical run off, and everything else spit up and migrated from all over the country by moving vehicles, which adheres to the car's surface.
> 
> ...


I don't understand this. If the polutants don't land on the car they land on the ground and get washed down the strorm drains anyway, so whats the difference made by powerwashing? None that I can see


----------



## reign (Oct 6, 2008)

spitfire said:


> I don't understand this. If the polutants don't land on the car they land on the ground and get washed down the strorm drains anyway, so whats the difference made by powerwashing? None that I can see


my sentiments EXACTLY when i phoned epa to ask what sort of end result scam this whole "water containment" legislation bs was?? and the above was exactly what i was told........that PW a vehicle to clean it "forces" these pollutants and contaminants off the vehicle and into the water supply, adding to pollution.


----------



## Gandi (Dec 18, 2007)

But a car is just a temporary carrier for these pollutants, as spitfire said they land on the ground any way just the 0.0000001% lands on a car for a few day before being washed on to the floor where they where going to end up any way.
Typical Government BS imo


----------



## spitfire (Feb 10, 2007)

reign said:


> my sentiments EXACTLY when i phoned epa to ask what sort of end result scam this whole "water containment" legislation bs was?? and the above was exactly what i was told........that PW a vehicle to clean it "forces" these pollutants and contaminants off the vehicle and into the water supply, adding to pollution.


Crazy logic eh! that sums up the whole eco thing for me really


----------



## Jesse74 (Jul 19, 2008)

spitfire said:


> I don't understand this. If the polutants don't land on the car they land on the ground and get washed down the strorm drains anyway, so whats the difference made by powerwashing? None that I can see


Exactly what I said in my first post. Just because it's _less_ doesn't mean it's the _lesser_ of the evils :devil:. Then again, this goes into same category about what I said in my 2nd post, there will always be an argument about it whether we find the argument valid or not, we're still wrong. Kind of like the "it's God's will" statement... you can argue with it all you want but they're still going to tell you the same thing no matter what you throw at them. :wall:


----------



## dominic84 (Jan 27, 2007)

> I don't understand this. If the polutants don't land on the car they land on the ground and get washed down the strorm drains anyway, so whats the difference made by powerwashing? None that I can see


The problem with regards to water pollution is only in part due to what may be washed off the vehicle and oil is the main contaminate so jet washing for example a cars engine is a good example of when the waste water should most definitelty be collected. But the issue is also with the chemicals that get washed down the drains alongside the vehicle run off.

Even waterless type products have some restictions under the guidelines, for example wind could cause spray drift from a waterless product which could end up the ground and subsequentally down the drains so therefore working practices must show this aspect has been taken into account.


----------



## spitfire (Feb 10, 2007)

dominic84 said:


> *The problem with regards to water pollution is only in part due to what may be washed off the vehicle and oil is the main contaminate so jet washing for example a cars engine is a good example of when the waste water should most definitelty be collected*. But the issue is also with the chemicals that get washed down the drains alongside the vehicle run off.
> 
> Even waterless type products have some restictions under the guidelines, for example wind could cause spray drift from a waterless product which could end up the ground and subsequentally down the drains so therefore working practices must show this aspect has been taken into account.


Ok, let's work on this point. What happens to the oil if I don't PW it off my car engine?


----------



## reign (Oct 6, 2008)

erm, it turns to sludge on your engine, and what doesnt get burned off(ie, going into the environment as air pollution) gets heavy enough to drop onto the ground as ground/water pollution?


----------



## spitfire (Feb 10, 2007)

reign said:


> erm, it turns to sludge on your engine, and what doesnt get burned off(ie, going into the environment as air pollution) gets heavy enough to drop onto the ground as ground/water pollution?


Ok! Playing devils advocate here. Reign, what will happen to it if it somehow manages to stay on the engine block for the life of the car.


----------



## dominic84 (Jan 27, 2007)

> Ok, let's work on this point. What happens to the oil if I don't PW it off my car engine?


I see where you are coming from and some may and probably would end up on the ground _but_ if you jet wash it off as a business activity then you/your business is directly causing it to potentially end up in rivers etc and businesses have to show a higher level of responsibility (in part due to legislation) than private individuals.


----------



## reign (Oct 6, 2008)

oh wow... that's a whole variable thing.. i mean, just leaving it there... everything from possible engine fires and malfunctions, loosened cogs which could cause accidents, to all sorts of pollution as the oil breaks down....and then, it depends on what else gets trapped into the oil as well.... *i saw your point from the first post*


----------



## spitfire (Feb 10, 2007)

dominic84 said:


> I see where you are coming from and some may and probably would end up on the ground _but_ if you jet wash it off as a business activity then you/your business is directly causing it to potentially end up in rivers etc and businesses have to show a higher level of responsibility (in part due to legislation) than private individuals.


But it's going to end up there anyway, either as ground or air contaminates.



reign said:


> oh wow... that's a whole variable thing.. i mean, everything from possible engine fires and malfunctions, loosened cogs which could cause accidents, and then, it depends on what else gets trapped into the oil as well.... *i saw your point from the first post*


I finally lost you:lol:
I was thinking more of when it reaches the scrapyard, gets broken up, melted down and that oil gets burned off and ends up as air polution.

The whole subjects a minefield I tell you


----------



## reign (Oct 6, 2008)

spitfire said:


> I finally lost you:lol:
> I was thinking more of when it reaches the scrapyard, gets broken up, melted down and that oil gets burned off and ends up as air polution.
> 
> The whole subjects a minefield I tell you


i agree... it really does seem like a no win situation. I mean, I'm all for going green, as I want to leave a habitual world for my grand kids, but at the same time, some of the relevant legislation seem to be in place more to line pockets than help the planet.

.... and you said, what if it stayed on your engine block indefinitely?? didn't mention anything about a scrap-yard. and everyone knows that too much crap getting constantly heated and reheated is just asking for trouble, especially if some of those materials are potentially flammable.


----------



## WHIZZER (Oct 25, 2005)

Epoch said:


> Can we still wash V8 cars in this section or is it only the like of Toyota Prius'?


:lol:


----------



## WHIZZER (Oct 25, 2005)

Bigpikle said:


> Thanks Mr Chief - great to see DW looking at something that will definitely be a growing issue for pro's and amateurs alike IMHO :thumb:
> 
> I think we need to focus on 3 areas of eco-detailing:
> 
> ...


Somebody has already mention *Transportation *

But another Could be *packaging*


----------



## Guest (Jan 16, 2009)

What an excellent idea for a new section. I shall definately be looking in here with great interest. :thumb:


----------



## Jesse74 (Jul 19, 2008)

Gandi said:


> But a car is just a temporary carrier for these pollutants, as spitfire said they land on the ground any way just the 0.0000001% lands on a car for a few day before being washed on to the floor where they where going to end up any way.
> Typical Government BS imo


+1 here


----------



## Paintmaster1982 (Oct 23, 2007)

I Live in Grimsby (UK) and i used to work on the dock sight where all the Audi, VW, Skoda (VAG) cars are held for storage for the UK. The Audi's, Skoda's and some VW's Came from germany brand new with a Transit Wax on them. This is a thick (3mm) wax which has a simlimar feel to soft candle wax and was sprayed on the cars at high temperature at the factory where the cars where made. 

This wax was sprayed on these cars to protect them from light damage whilst they where stored on the dock side open to all kinds of harsh weathers from the sea, salt, hot sun in the summer time and dust etc. Most cars would be stood on the dock side for 6 months and somtimes a year.

My job was to direct a De-Wax site on the dock side. This is where we used parifin run Steam cleaners which created allot of pressure. The jets would then be mixed with parafin and then skillfully sprayed on the cars in order to take the wax off. We used to at time De-Wax thousands of cars a week.

All the Wax, Water, and paraifn mix would then go into the drains and then over flow into 3 butts under ground. Because parifin, wax mix was lighter than water, we could then every 2 weeks pump out the access into a storage tank which would then get taken away and despoded off or re cycled then the water would go into the main storm drainage (i think).

The De Wax was ended about 6 months ago for environment issues at the car factories in other countries. 

I think back now and realise how much water, parifin was used for the 3 years i was working there and the site was there for about 10 year prior to me. 

I dont feel as guilty now for washing my car knowing that place has now gone. 
It just proves that companies can be effected by these Eco issues.

Rob


----------



## nudda (Oct 28, 2008)

Unless you are detailing an electric car or hybrid etc, using eco-friendly products is biased IMHO. Im all for eco products but have two 3.0 litre cars ... this section just makes me feel bad !!


----------



## Lloyd71 (Aug 21, 2008)

wozza-vrs said:


> Bought some natural alloy wheel cleaner yesterday to see what its like! They do a range of stuff starting from a quid. Have not tried the bits iv used but its ECO friendly! :thumb:
> 
> http://www.halfords.com/webapp/wcs/...earch&storeId=10001&catalogId=10151&langId=-1
> 
> http://www.halfords.com/webapp/wcs/..._productId_382057_langId_-1_categoryId_165682


I've got the Eco range glass cleaner and it's awesome stuff, smells really nice too as it's got lime and all sorts in it. I really like the idea of the new 'Eco' sections at Halfords as the products are usually more interesting than your average selection, which is always good.


----------



## Scud (Jun 30, 2006)

You can also recycle your empty wax pots, bottles, 5ltr bottles etc...... <<<< thats green too.


----------



## reparebrise (Jan 19, 2009)

Being an ECO detailer does not mean driving a electric car. It means being conscious that what you do has an impact, and you have choices in what you use.

For the valet professional going green also means increasing profits, by reducing labor costs, increasing customer perception, and reducing cost for such things as chemicals and vehicle costs.


----------



## AdulteratedJedi (May 11, 2007)

I shall keep an eye on this section, and maybe strt with the others LOL


----------

