# How to destroy your paint 'safely' ! (56K hang on!)



## Brazo (Oct 27, 2005)

*PS ONLY FOLLOW THIS IF YOU WISH TO DESTROY YOUR PAINT!!!*

Or perhaps this should be entitled how to turn a meguiars burgudy cutting pad into a lake county variable cutting pad 

First off nice to meet you BenP and AlexL and later on Johnnyopolis.

Perfect day today really, first up some rotary fun and then some retail therapy in person at Clean and Shiney:thumb:

The aim of today was to practice rotary use to destruction on a panel to see how much paint is removed by different processes.

First up we had a badly oxidised ford red bonnet that I picked up from the local scrappy. We taped off the areas to work on. You can just notice some trees trying to break through the dull shine of the red .










The paint thickness was measured in the small area taped off. We used a Landtek paint thickness guage that measures in microns or 1000ths of an millimeter. We took 7 readings across this area, the average across this area was *89* microns the paint was thicker to the left *104* and thinner at the right around *80*.










We then started with meguiars #80 on the cyclo, the panel was now a nice deeper red and the white pads were stained red!! However the paint reading only dropped to an average of *86.9* microns. This demonstrates minimal - safe paint removal to achieve the desired shine.

But thats not what this test was exclusivly about:devil:

I think its fair to say we were itching to crack open the big guns so we jumped straight to meguiars #84 (rated 9/10 on the abrasive scale :doublesho ) using the makita rotary we started on speed 1, then 3 and finally 6 really giving it some welly:driver:










I took the first shift and after using the big boys we then measured the paint again and found an average thickness of *81.8* microns. 
So thats 5 microns lost using almost the heaviest gun.

I said almost

Ben brought his diamond cut meguiars #85 (rated 10/10 on the abrasive scale :doublesho :doublesho )

Here Ben gives it a good compounding










What surprised us the most was how nicely these heavyweights broke down to a pretty good swirl free (but not hologram free) finish.










Next up we re measured the paint and found an average of 75 microns, so another 6 had fallen by the wayside.

Plenty left to play with?

Not so it would seem a black area that appeared underneath the red had formed. When measured this was *48.4 *microns. A thin spot in the paint had been revealed and the black primer was faintly visible. :buffer:

Next up AlexL chose a megiars burgundy cutting pad and some #84 to try and concentrate some heat into the thin spot.










After a what can only be described as a seriously heavy and prolonged compounding the thin spot had dropped to *38.9* microns. After each pass we spryaed the panel wth QD to create some steam!










So it was left to me to kill the panel:devil:

I stuck with the 'spot' megs cutting pad and the #84 and more pressure than was really needed and 3000 rpm and I was 'smoking' 



















AFter hanging on for dear life for waht seemed an age the pad started to break up, smoke was coming from the panel and finally we had burnt through!!

And the afters?










The circled area is bare metal lol










The debris from the dead megs cutting pad










Conclusion - usual disclaimers apply!

It takes a fair amount of effort to burn the paint and even go through the paint, we had so many warning signs, heat, steam, smoke, exploding pads and yet we ignored them all 

A reasonably comptetent person could pick up a rotary and at worst instill swirls and holograms wihout totally fubarring the paint. However the above readings are total film build and do not separate out between the primer and colour coat or in the event of clearcoated paint the clearcoat itself. It has told us that to compound safely a paint thickness meter is essential to test how much is being removed. The danger of a thin spot is always there as we found today

The end readings were 5.5 microns on what appeared to be bare metal (obviously had some paint on) and 28 microns on the surounding primer.

Next up we tested a clearcoated panel with swirls










BenP used the wool pad and #85 to clear them, to a pretty good finish on its own:thumb:










^^Left side polished, right side not








^^Before








^^after

We also had fun putting in and trying to remove various scratches/marring etc

Might even do some more readings tommorow if anyone has a combo they would like to see how much paint is removed let me know:buffer:


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## Neil_S (Oct 26, 2005)

I would say Menzerna IP with rotary, but I don't think that is in your collection, no no warehouse of products ;-)

Very very interesting by the way, as somebody that wants to start using a rotary


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## GlynRS2 (Jan 21, 2006)

That is quite reassuring - I think 
It would be impossible to replicate those extreme conditions with a PC.
However, one could say that the panel had been damaged significantly as soon as the black primer became visible with the #85 and the wool pad.
Certainly worth practicing on a scrap panel if you're learning to use a rotary


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## Neil_S (Oct 26, 2005)

I would be interested to hear from Ben and Alex, what tips did you pick up on using the rotary chaps?


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## Brazo (Oct 27, 2005)

Ben was giving us tips lol


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## 182_Blue (Oct 25, 2005)

brilliant little write up there, interesting findings too


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## blr123 (Oct 26, 2005)

Brazo said:


> Ben was giving us tips lol


Like what???

Bryan


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## Brazo (Oct 27, 2005)

The primer when measured it was 28.5microns, I may have already shaved some off mind so if we call it approx 30 microns that shows a the ss colour was only approximately 18 microns thick over the primer hence why the black was showing through? - All rough figures before anyone gets excited :thumb:

Tomorrow I will try my usual combo of a megs yellow polishing pad and ssr 2/2.5 to see how little that removes


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## blr123 (Oct 26, 2005)

So apart from some marring that can easily be removed using a PC the Rotary is "fairly" safe to use.............although it would be wise to test on a scrap panel first yeah???

Bryan

PS YHEM Brazo!


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## DPN (Jan 7, 2006)

Where did you get your Landtek from and how much.

Ebay do them for £184.40 all in to your door. Is that a good price or not.

Dave


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## Rich (Oct 26, 2005)

Looked like fun!


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## Rich @ PB (Oct 26, 2005)

Great write up - made me laugh as the steps got worse. Seriously interesting though - would be really interested to know how much Menzerna IP takes of when used with a 4" orange cutting pad on the PC - just thinking of the LCR I did last Saturday - some of those scratches were deep, and I got them out completely - must have removed a fair bit of the clear coat?


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## Neil_S (Oct 26, 2005)

Another test i'd like to see is some rotary use on the edges of your scrap bonnet. Burning the edges of the paintwork is usually referred to as being quite easy to do and one of the things I fear the most with rotary use.


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## Brazo (Oct 27, 2005)

DPN said:


> Where did you get your Landtek from and how much.
> 
> Ebay do them for £184.40 all in to your door. Is that a good price or not.
> 
> Dave


:thumb: 
Ebay £181


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## Brazo (Oct 27, 2005)

WX51 TXR said:


> Great write up - made me laugh as the steps got worse. Seriously interesting though - would be really interested to know how much Menzerna IP takes of when used with a 4" orange cutting pad on the PC - just thinking of the LCR I did last Saturday - some of those scratches were deep, and I got them out completely - must have removed a fair bit of the clear coat?


If you want to send me a free sample I'll try it out:thumb:


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## Brazo (Oct 27, 2005)

Neil_S said:


> Another test i'd like to see is some rotary use on the edges of your scrap bonnet. Burning the edges of the paintwork is usually referred to as being quite easy to do and one of the things I fear the most with rotary use.


Good call, also very hard to measure on the edge as the meter can't sit flat


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## BenP (Dec 2, 2005)

Brazo said:


> Ben was giving us tips lol


The only one I can remember giving was how to change the direction of the rotary by raising or lowering your trigger wrist. Other than that, it seemed to be a case of:

Q - "what do you reckon this'll do?"
A - "I don't know - lets give it a go"

I still need to get some practice on a car so I can tackle curved panels, ridges and vertical surfaces; but today was definitely a good exercise in seeing just how brutal you can be with a rotary and not causing too much damage...

Ben


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## Neil_S (Oct 26, 2005)

I must admit I feel rather reassured in reading this thread. 

Brazo if your coming to the cleanandshiny detailingworld meet I would love to have a go measuring my paint with your measuring tool. 

It is something I have always wondered about, my gut feeling is that the previous owner only ever gave it the odd wash and didn't do much polishing as the car had light swirls when I got it. But it is always nice to confirm your understanding.


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## Brazo (Oct 27, 2005)

BenP said:


> The only one I can remember giving was how to change the direction of the rotary by raising or lowering your trigger wrist. Other than that, it seemed to be a case of:
> 
> Q - "what do you reckon this'll do?"
> A - "I don't know - lets give it a go"
> ...


I think your too harsh on yourself mate but its good that you seek perfection!

Remeber guys this was single stage and theres less to polish with when working on clearcoated cars. I will post a pic of how thin the typical clearcoat is. Its quite scary lol!


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## Brazo (Oct 27, 2005)

To put the above into perspective for those with clearcoats. This calibration foil is a typical clearcoat thickness. It is pictured next to a piece of 80gram/sq. metre paper. You can safely remove about a 1/3 of this. Confident?


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## Beeste (Oct 25, 2005)

Excellent. Just excellent. :thumb: I'd really like to see what SSR 2.5 with a SFX yellow pad (4") removes after 3 passes on a PC? Any chance? (Not really paranoid about how much clear I'm removing?)


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## db_abz (Jan 19, 2006)

How about using some 1200 - 3000 wet and dry and measuring the results ?
Polishing to a gloss and measuring again ?

Dave


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## JJ_ (Oct 26, 2005)

Excellent review might just buy me one of those paint thickness meters. Good toy to have about.


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## L200 Steve (Oct 25, 2005)

Nice one guys:thumb: 

The paint thickness gauge goes a long way in building confidence in using the rotary. Your test going a long way to show again that not caring for your vehicles paint causes more damage than mild polishing and then waxing ever can. (+20 microns of oxidation removed using a mild polish, then only 5 microns using the rotary and a cutting compound?)

I reckon you could kill the paint on that panel by just washing it with fairy liquid once a fortnight a lot quicker than you ever could using #80/#21 and the PC :buffer: Once the 'dead' oxidation has been removed, the PC removes how much? 

Laughing my head off at the thought of you guy's 'smoking' at 3,000 rpm :doublesho :doublesho


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## Brazo (Oct 27, 2005)

What wasn't shown as I ****ed the readings up was hand removal of the initial oxidaton using a terry towel and #66. 

Red transfer on the terry towel and it looked pretty good for a 'hand' treatment


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## Rich @ PB (Oct 26, 2005)

PM me your address - IP on the way.


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## dino (Oct 26, 2005)

Great write up there! 

Looked a lot of fun.


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## Alex L (Oct 25, 2005)

Great Photos mark:thumb: 
I really like the smoking panel one, might make that my new screen saver:lol: 

it was a really good day and instilled a little more confidence in my rotary practice, knowing i'm not going to go through the paint or burn just by putting the rotary near the paint 

Weather permitting i'm going to have another go on the test car today, as i managed to remove swirls the other day but leave holograms, so it'll be swirl removal with a rotary, then hologram removal with the PC.

Neil what you up to tomorrow?

If you want to come over and and see how a rotary polisher feels your welcome to.
I wont be able to teach you anything, just to give yourself a feel for it.

Alex


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## Neil_S (Oct 26, 2005)

Alex L said:


> Great Photos mark:thumb:
> Neil what you up to tomorrow?
> 
> If you want to come over and and see how a rotary polisher feels your welcome to.
> ...


I would have loved to mate, but currently shackled to the desk, customer wants a document i'm writing by the end of the day!


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## Alex L (Oct 25, 2005)

Neil_S said:


> I would have loved to mate, but currently shackled to the desk, customer wants a document i'm writing by the end of the day!


I'll be around next sunday too.

Another thing i noticed with our destruction was how much easier a wool pad was to control compared to a foam pad, and how much quicker swirls came out with it.
Definetly going to treat myself to one.


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## Beeste (Oct 25, 2005)

Wool pad? Any more info on these?


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## Alex L (Oct 25, 2005)

Beeste said:


> Wool pad? Any more info on these?


Ben and Brazo are the best to answer this, but i found the rotary doesnt try to pull you like a foam pad does if you get the wrong angle/ too much product on it.

It also works the product alot quicker than a foam one, i think thats why Joe( Superior Shine) on MOL uses one so much?


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## Brazo (Oct 27, 2005)

*Clearcoat thickness readings*

Thanks Rich:thumb:

Have just done some clearcoat tests. The average thickness of the clearcoatcoated paint was *330* microns - remember this included primer basecoat and clearcoat. This is exceptionally thick, my 'new car' is *130* microns. The bonnet could have been resprayed at some point but it was very uniform all readings within 10% of each other which is very hard to achieve by hand???










Firstly the bonnet was taped off into bite size chunks with a good degree of separation between each square.










Here are the swirls on the bonnet










Next up the rotary was used first to remove swirls using a meguiars polishing pad and ssr2.5. The average thickness before was * 345 *microns. Two passes at 1500rpm removed most of the swirls but not the spider webbing. Another pass and still spider webbing left. This paint was hard, was a ford bonnet but reminded me of VAG paint.

I then used meguiars #84 on the wool pad and followed this up with another ssr2.5 to remove the swirling and then megs #80 on the pc to finish off to a pretty good finish.










The new reading to achieve a swirl free finish was *337* microns indicating an average of *8* microns had been removed to achieve a swirl free finish. This was well within the safety zone but seemed 'a lot' of paint to remove.

Next up on a different section I tried one pass of the rotary with ssr2.5 but dialed in approxinatly 2200 -2500rpm. The extra heat was enough to fully remove the swirls in one pass:doublesho at only a loss of 3 microns of paint.

On a different section I tried meguairs #80 at two passes with a white 4 inch polishing pad. No meaningful paint removal could be detected using the meter - indeed it appeard to go up by 0.5 micron lol - beyond its level of accuracy at such 'high' thickness readings. From the pic you can still see swirls but a good mprovement.










Next up was 3 passes of ssr2.5 with a 4 inch cuting pad on the pc

Here the paint thickness dropped by 2 microns and a good but still not perfect finish was left.



















^^Top half polished lower half not.

Conclusion - swirl removal could be safely undertaken by removing 3-4 microns well within the safety zone of such a thick paint to start with. Mopping the paint and finishing up with lower grades also produced an excellent finish but at the cost of more microns of paint - not important on this test piece but maybe so on your pride and joy?

I also polished the edge for a minute using ssr2.5 and a megs pad and whilst I couldn't do any readings it didn't show any visible sgns of burning through.

Next week wet sanding and IP:thumb:


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## Neil_S (Oct 26, 2005)

This is fascinating, great work, looking forward to the IP test


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## Brazo (Oct 27, 2005)

^^so am I!!


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## RobDom (Oct 26, 2005)

Interesting results, but could you do these tests with a PC rather than a rotary, so Joe Average (i.e. 99% of us) can see what happens, rotaries are really only for the pro's or very brave! It would be interesting and very useful to see what a PC with orange pad does using something like IP and/or Optimum Compound?


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## Brazo (Oct 27, 2005)

^^Just have


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## JJ_ (Oct 26, 2005)

I think that settles it for me, I have bordered between rotary and Pc for varying jobs but the rotary always broke down the products better and quicker, sometimes in less than half the time #80 in particular. 

I may even treat myself to a makita since its my birthday today.


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## Brazo (Oct 27, 2005)

^^Happy Birthday 

Don't forget guys thats only 1 test on two panels other cars may be different


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## Neil_S (Oct 26, 2005)

JJ_ said:


> I may even treat myself to a makita since its my birthday today.


Happy Birthday mate, now that sounds like a plan


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## Wmffra (Oct 30, 2005)

Hmmm, very interesting!

From what I can see, even with a rotary evil you have to be A)







B) Totally careless or C) Very heavy handed to subject serious damage to flat panels.

I think most of us (me included:buffer are scared of the rotarys reputation, in reality it's nowhere near as bad/difficult to use as we imagine . . . .

Looking forward to more updates :thumb:


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## adamf (Feb 5, 2006)

Wait for your electric bill lol


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## Alex L (Oct 25, 2005)

Looks like you've been busy today Brazo,

I think from the results from today and yesterday on flat panels a rotary is much easier.

And like Bens concerns about Raised areas and panel curves a PC with 4" pad is the easier option.

I've just been reading a post on MOL by Octane Guy about a SS red Mustang that he's just rotaried and he taped off the raised areas.

Alex


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## Brazo (Oct 27, 2005)

Wmffra said:


> Hmmm, very interesting!
> 
> From what I can see, even with a rotary evil you have to be A)
> 
> ...


I think the rotary has a bad reputation as its generally bad mouthed by those who have never used it. Thats not to say it won't damage your paint but your paint won't melt as soon as you pick one up lol!

They will and do instill swirling/holograms which can be reduced right down using softer grades of pads/polishes.

I for one until I'm fully competent (say 40 years:lol: ) will always follow up with the pc to remove the more minor defetcts instilled.

In terms of speed the rotary wins every time. It was also interesting to see how little paint the pc removed (on this car) even after 3 ssr2.5 passes.


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## GlynRS2 (Jan 21, 2006)

Yes I am sure after reading this quite a few of us may well have a go with a rotary. I wonder if something could be set up at the Detailing World / Clean and Shiny day with a panel or two to let a few of us have a go? Could be quite entertaining aswell as a very useful exercise.


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## AndyC (Oct 25, 2005)

Excellent excellent post chaps - sorry I couldn't make it but I was in Teeside/North Yorkshire and landed at John's place around 8.00 after 600-odd miles.

I'd certainly be up for some training/testing as Lou's Clio needs more than my meager talents & a PC can manage


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## Mr OCD (Apr 18, 2006)

How does Farcla G3 compare to Megs #84 / #85 ?

Worth trying?

Interesting read


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