# Not been paid - is this reasonable



## andy665

I work for a small company and the agreement is that I get paid on 24th of every month.

Been there nearly 2 years and for the last 5 months I have been paid 1-3 days late - not a major issue but does cause some inconvenience but I have always accepted that this is part and parcel of working for a small business.

What is really starting to irritate is that the owner of business never makes me aware that I will be paid late - she simply ignores it - this I find discourteous and plain unprofessional.

This month I have again not been paid and a colleague has been told it might not be until the end of the month (Monday / Tuesday)

This will cause me some pain - probably some overdraft fees which I would expect the business to reimburse me for.

Apparently the main client we work for does not pay until month end - I would be happy to move my pay date to that time if I were to receive a portion of my slary to cover the one time shortfall between the 24th and month end but this is not really my suggestion to make / offer 

I have a project that requires delivery to the client on Friday of this week - should I consider witholding delivery of that work to the client until such time as I have been paid

I know it seems drastic and I hate conflict but this late payment of salary combined with never being told its going to be late is starting to get me down now


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## empsburna

I would be more worried about why they are unable to service these obligations.

And yes, well within your rights to be angry with them and they should cough up as long as you have salary date in writing.


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## Tricky Red

I would leave 

First sign of a business failing is not honouring its obligations. Employees should always come first.


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## andy665

Tricky Red said:


> I would leave
> 
> First sign of a business failing is not honouring its obligations. Employees should always come first.


Already set the wheels in motion on that particular course of action - it concerns me that cashflow may be a problem, not helped by the fact that the owner of the business is incredibly diorganised


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## justina3

Tricky one this and far from black and white, is there a reason for the late payments are customers paying them late and having a knock on effect, or the bosses off spending money they don’t have ? 

If it was the first option I myself would bear with them if it was the second I would be gone. 

I would expect to be kept in the loop from the bosses at least as to what is going on as matter of good manners, you need to talk them openly no need for conflict it is a simply enough question and one they should answer. 

As an employer I have found myself over the years in similar positions where main dealers / customers are shockingly bad at paying when the occasion did arise I made sure everyone was in the picture and the staff where happy to work with me.


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## justina3

Tricky Red said:


> I would leave
> 
> First sign of a business failing is not honouring its obligations. Employees should always come first.


That's a tad simplistic, none of us know the reasons why this is happening even the op doesn't know, I myself would be asking the bosses first.


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## RD55 DUN

andy665 said:


> This will cause me some pain - probably some overdraft fees which I would expect the business to reimburse me for.


Bad crack being paid late for the past number of months, as you state it is unprofessional.

Dosent matter if they compensate you for any overdraft fees/charges…will this not impact your credit rating/history?


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## andy665

justina3 said:


> Tricky one this and far from black and white, is there a reason for the late payments are customers paying them late and having a knock on effect, or the bosses off spending money they don't have ?
> 
> If it was the first option I myself would bear with them if it was the second I would be gone.
> 
> I would expect to be kept in the loop from the bosses at least as to what is going on as matter of good manners, you need to talk them openly no need for conflict it is a simply enough question and one they should answer.
> 
> As an employer I have found myself over the years in similar positions where main dealers / customers are shockingly bad at paying when the occasion did arise I made sure everyone was in the picture and the staff where happy to work with me.


I agree - its the complete lack of information / notification I find so poor. Late payment last month was due to the fact the boss was on holiday in an exclusive resort on Rhodes and did not have internet access to trigger payment - that went down very well with me as I was doing my own job, looking after other stuff for her and generally working myself stupid


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## cossiecol

andy665 said:


> I work for a small company and the agreement is that I get paid on 24th of every month.
> 
> Been there nearly 2 years and for the last 5 months I have been paid 1-3 days late - not a major issue but does cause some inconvenience but I have always accepted that this is part and parcel of working for a small business.
> 
> What is really starting to irritate is that the owner of business never makes me aware that I will be paid late - she simply ignores it - this I find discourteous and plain unprofessional.
> 
> This month I have again not been paid and a colleague has been told it might not be until the end of the month (Monday / Tuesday)
> 
> This will cause me some pain - probably some overdraft fees which I would expect the business to reimburse me for.
> 
> Apparently the main client we work for does not pay until month end - I would be happy to move my pay date to that time if I were to receive a portion of my slary to cover the one time shortfall between the 24th and month end but this is not really my suggestion to make / offer
> 
> I have a project that requires delivery to the client on Friday of this week - should I consider witholding delivery of that work to the client until such time as I have been paid
> 
> I know it seems drastic and I hate conflict but this late payment of salary combined with never being told its going to be late is starting to get me down now


IMO no you should not delay the delivery, this is unprofessional on your part. The issues with your manager are between you and him/her not your client. All you will do is end up giving yourself a bad reputation if you deliberately delay a project.

Deliver your project and I would then consider looking for employment elsewhere.


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## empsburna

Just seen the update.

I would be angry at the lack of information - that would frustrate the hell out of me.


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## andy665

cossiecol said:


> IMO no you should not delay the delivery, this is unprofessional on your part. The issues with your manager are between you and him/her not your client. All you will do is end up giving yourself a bad reputation if you deliberately delay a project.
> 
> Deliver your project and I would then consider looking for employment elsewhere.


I understand but what else do I have to bargain with - I'm delivering what is expected - all I expect is to be paid for what I have done - if I deliver the project on time and by that time my salary will be 5 days late then whos the fool - in my eyes in would be me


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## cossiecol

andy665 said:


> I understand but what else do I have to bargain with - I'm delivering what is expected - all I expect is to be paid for what I have done - if I deliver the project on time and by that time my salary will be 5 days late then whos the fool - in my eyes in would be me


I understand where you're coming from, however speaking from experience I would be less inclined to hire/take on someone who didn't deliver a project on time or delivered it late when there was no reason to.

Your other course of action would be to arrange a meeting with your employer and state that it's unacceptable (and back it up in writing after), and should it continue you would be forced to consider your options.

Of course this is just my opinion and I'm sure others will have a different viewpoint.


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## Guest

Cossiecol has got this spot on.

If you do not deliver your project you are opening yourself up to counter accusations of not doing your job (and potentially getting a poor reference).

Stay professional, deliver your project and look to leave.

In the interim put in a written query about where is this month's salary and see what response you get.


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## justina3

andy665 said:


> I agree - its the complete lack of information / notification I find so poor. Late payment last month was due to the fact the boss was on holiday in an exclusive resort on Rhodes and did not have internet access to trigger payment - that went down very well with me as I was doing my own job, looking after other stuff for her and generally working myself stupid


hmm couldnt have been that exclusive if they didnt have simple broadband in this day and age i would find that hard to swallow, and they could have always rang the bank spoke there business manager and asked them to put the payment through, i did that whilst being delayed due to a hurracain in florida once.

I do feel for you mate but i would follow what others have already suggested some good advise already posted.


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## andy665

justina3 said:


> hmm couldnt have been that exclusive if they didnt have simple broadband in this day and age i would find that hard to swallow, and they could have always rang the bank spoke there business manager and asked them to put the payment through, i did that whilst being delayed due to a hurracain in florida once.
> 
> I do feel for you mate but i would follow what others have already suggested some good advise already posted.


I'm thinking that 2 wrongs do not make a right and by delivering on schedule without complaint at least gives me the opportunity to take the moral high ground


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## HarryHedgehog

justina3 said:


> hmm couldnt have been that exclusive if they didnt have simple broadband in this day and age i would find that hard to swallow, and they could have always rang the bank spoke there business manager and asked them to put the payment through, i did that whilst being delayed due to a hurracain in florida once.
> 
> I do feel for you mate but i would follow what others have already suggested some good advise already posted.


I think this says all about their organisation. What contingency plans have they got if they can't plan ahead enough to ensure payments are prompt and ontime. I work for myself, use broadband, have a mifi/dongle as backup, and got Starbucks in a push... Also have a 'hit by a bus' file as I call it jokingly, so anyone can pick it up, and has all vital docs in it, in case of emergency.. All files backups made and offsite... Communication in this day and age is the name of the game both internal and with clients... As others have said, act in good faith with your clients, keep your reputation intact for excellent service, and look elsewhere... Respect works both ways and from what you've said, it's clear there is a lack of respect from management. Stuff happens, but clearly the management don't care or can't be bothered to sort it out or communicate with you... Not acceptable in my book.


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## m4rkymark

agree with cossiecol - don't delay the delivery of the project - that could be classed as gross misconduct and would leave you without a leg to stand on. your pay issues are completely separate from any other issues - I think your anger is clouding your judgement.

Whoever is left in charge should be able to do the wages run - they should be able to do everything not just the wages run - if your boss was run over by a bus who would take over?


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## Tricky Red

I don't buy this matey sorry. 

A company has obligations to pay its staff. End of. He goes on holiday and should have made adequate provision for a forward dated payment to pay everyone. Poor, poor organisation. 

If you are not paid on time and you are doing your job and you have suffered financial penalty then you have a right to recourse. Your terms and conditions act in your favour on this one.


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## Andyg_TSi

Firstly, as Cossiecol says, conduct yourself professionally & stay focused on delivering your project.

Secondly, small business or not, payroll's are simple to operate with many functions automated.

Making payments on a specific date (or last working day before a bank holiday) is straightforward.

I don't understand why there is a constant delay in paying you.

If it was me, I'd be making it clear in a courteous way that their delay could cause you financial hardship if your not paid.

You have bills to pay.....Mortgage/council tax/utilities paid on DD that come out of the bank on a specific date following pay day.
If your not paid on time & you end up defaulting on those DD's because there isn't enough in your account to cover your outgoings, then you'll be expecting them to compensate you for the inconvenience and the potential black mark against your credit rating.

You have been professional enough to maintain your output and job focus. You expect them to do the same & pay you on time, on Friday this week.


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## Scottien

Cashflow is very hard for smaller businesses sometimes. Lots of businesses do go through rough patches and cashflow is always the first thing to be struck. At the end of the day they are paying you and I'm sure if they could they would love to pay you on time.

I'd have a private chat with the MD and just discuss the pay and whats hindering you being paid on time. Explain that if you aren't going to be paid on time then you would like in writing when they are planning on paying you.


I work for a small company and I'm always paid on time, however if it really is bothering you that much then you should perhaps be looking for a job in a larger company with reliable cashflow.


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## Juke_Fan

Perhaps you and other members of staff should present your boss with a claim for your overdraft fees etc due to delayed payment.

It might help focus her mind on paying you all on time.


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## lofty

I've just been on holiday and I can pay wages using my phone if I have to, its very easy to pay people these days, he's stringing you along using a holiday as an excuse. He's either just lazy and unorganised or the company is having financial difficulties. What happens if the main contract fails to pay him on time, do you have to wait even longer or at worst not get paid at all.


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## andy665

Just sent an email that I believe is more than fair / reasonable:

"I notice that my salary and expenses were not paid yesterday as agreed when I commenced employment. Can you please advise when they will be paid so that I can make arrangements should there be any further delay. Whilst I have an overdraft it is for emergencies only and I only acrue charges if I utilise the facility. I will add any charges that I do acrue through late payment of salary / expenses to my August expenses claim - best regards Andy"


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## Guitarjon

Your overall credit rating will be affected. May not mean much depending on your history but frequent late payments etc will go against you. 

As a short term possible solution could you move all direct debits to the beginning of the next month until you can get your employer kicked up the ****? That way if it's a bit late it won't affect you personally quite as much.


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## Darlofan

As guitarjon says late/bounced payments would affect your credit rating. I'd tell your boss you're planning a mortgage/remortgage, new car(make up to suit you) and need your credit rating to be clean. Suggest being paid at end of month as you said if you get the extra week, if it makes it easier for the company. I think this is quite fair and reasonable on your part but dont start delaying your work as that could backfire.


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## martin.breslin

I would strongly recommend going to see Citizens Advice Bureau!! This is a common problem and those guys are sound. Your legal rights on one hand, if you are full time employed, is as this happens regularly... If you haven't been paid, you can cease work until you are paid and they still have to pay you for the time you are not working. This is very rarely used as most companies will write you an emergency check or people are too afraid to do this or don't know about it...


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## Rayaan

A portion of my pay doesn't come most months - If I didn't track the wage slip I wouldn't even know that they'd missed it. It works out a couple grand every month - annoying but can't do anything about it.

NHS doesn't pay on time lol - I ended up getting half my wage the next month after it was due :O

Its not a small business thing - even the big ones do it. Something to do with getting interest on the money Ive been told......


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## Bero

OP - IMHO you're doing the right thing, of course you can suggest that withholding a project could be a last resort if needed. But don't do it this month....and think long and hard if you REALLY want to do that in a future month.



empsburna said:


> And yes, well within your rights to be angry with them and they should cough up as long as you have salary date in writing.


It should not matter if it's in writing or not, the date has been set by the precedent over the 1st 19 months OP worked there, before the late payment started.



Rayaan said:


> A portion of my pay doesn't come most months - If I didn't track the wage slip I wouldn't even know that they'd missed it. It works out a couple grand every month - annoying but can't do anything about it.
> 
> NHS doesn't pay on time lol - I ended up getting half my wage the next month after it was due :O
> 
> Its not a small business thing - even the big ones do it. Something to do with getting interest on the money Ive been told......


You can lose a couple grand a month off your wage and not notice....nice :thumb:


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## Titanium Htail

Do you have a contract of employment ?

John Tht.

GOV.uk


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## andy665

Well, I was promised I would be paid by close of play yesterday - as at 1pm today I still have not been paid - going beyond a joke now


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## muzzer

Is the customer paying on time? That could be why there is a delay in paying your wages, your boss might be waiting to get paid. Not an excuse i know but it might explain things.
I know of one company hammering through orders and building up items for clients who dont pay until the stuff gets to site. Its only the fact the owner is mega rich that keeps that system going, is it possible that this is the case here?


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## Rayaan

Bero said:


> OP - IMHO you're doing the right thing, of course you can suggest that withholding a project could be a last resort if needed. But don't do it this month....and think long and hard if you REALLY want to do that in a future month.
> 
> It should not matter if it's in writing or not, the date has been set by the precedent over the 1st 19 months OP worked there, before the late payment started.
> 
> You can lose a couple grand a month off your wage and not notice....nice :thumb:


Lol the only reason I wouldn't notice is because I dont do regular shifts each month - they vary so one month I can do 320 hours and another month I can do half that. Thats why I have to sit with my rota open + my wage slip lol


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## andy665

I fired a warning shot across the bows last week in requesting confirmation that I will be paid on time this month (24th - Thursday) as if there was going to be a delay in payment I may not be able to afford to fly out to Vienna on Sunday with the business (I do not get paid for weekends) 

I have been told that I should not hold the company to ransom and should start acting responsibly - I think I need to start making plans for alternative employment


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## muzzer

andy665 said:


> I fired a warning shot across the bows last week in requesting confirmation that I will be paid on time this month (24th - Thursday) as if there was going to be a delay in payment I may not be able to afford to fly out to Vienna on Sunday with the business (I do not get paid for weekends)
> 
> I have been told that I should not hold the company to ransom and should start acting responsibly - I think I need to start making plans for alternative employment


Maybe you should act responsibly and when they don't pay you again, take them to court for loss of earnings.
However, i suspect the search for alternative employment will be easier and shorter in the long run


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## lowejackson

There is a potential claim for breach of contract, raising a formal grievance would be the perfect starting point. I would argue the employer should have treated your complaints as a grievance claim but nevertheless write to them to make it formal.

If it is easy to jump into another job, this is probably the easiest thing to do. Whilst I understand your frustrations and you have every right to be very unhappy, be cautious with your language. They may deicide your conduct is unreasonable and start disciplinary action against you.


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## Bero

OP - confirming ahead of time is a nice way of putting it. The company telling you to be more professional is pretty poor considering you're just asking if they will comply with a contract they have signed and agreed to abide by!



lowejackson said:


> There is a potential claim for breach of contract, raising a formal grievance would be the perfect starting point. I would argue the employer should have treated your complaints as a grievance claim but nevertheless write to them to make it formal.


No, no, no, no.

This gets you nowhere and places yourself firmly in the departure lounge.

The OP currently has very little or no expenses due to this, he IS being paid, just late. He needs to find new employment and tell them to shove it. What could he claim for breach of contract? Interest payment on the day's it has been late? That probably would not amount to £10. Even if the 8% PA that's commonly used was applied the payout will be negligible.


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## empsburna

Good luck in the job hunt.


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## lowejackson

Bero said:


> ......No, no, no, no.
> 
> This gets you nowhere and places yourself firmly in the departure lounge.
> 
> The OP currently has very little or no expenses due to this, he IS being paid, just late. He needs to find new employment and tell them to shove it. What could he claim for breach of contract? Interest payment on the day's it has been late? That probably would not amount to £10. Even if the 8% PA that's commonly used was applied the payout will be negligible.


Respectfully disagree. The conduct is a potential breach of contract and a consequential unlawful deduction of wages. One could also argue the break down in trust is greater than the interest payments, which I agree with you are minimal.

Reading this thread indicates the relationship will end in either a deal being struck to end the employment or the OP will find another job. Ultimately is does not matter if the employer cannot or will not fulfil the contract by paying on an agreed date, it is the actions of the employer which are important.

It has been over a decade since I acted as an advocate in Tribunals and my knowledge of current employment laws are not as good as they used to be but unless there has been a significant shift in contract law I do not believe my assessment is fundamentally flawed.

Obviously we are discussing things in a broad nature as we have not privy to all the details


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## Bero

lowejackson said:


> Respectfully disagree. The conduct is a potential breach of contract and a consequential unlawful deduction of wages. One could also argue the break down in trust is greater than the interest payments, which I agree with you are minimal.
> 
> Reading this thread indicates the relationship will end in either a deal being struck to end the employment or the OP will find another job. Ultimately is does not matter if the employer cannot or will not fulfil the contract by paying on an agreed date, it is the actions of the employer which are important.
> 
> It has been over a decade since I acted as an advocate in Tribunals and my knowledge of current employment laws are not as good as they used to be but unless there has been a significant shift in contract law I do not believe my assessment is fundamentally flawed.
> 
> Obviously we are discussing things in a broad nature as we have not privy to all the details


What would you claim for? Loss of trust? I don't believe that would carry any monetary value whatsoever.

If they were building a house for you, you could claim loss of trust and appoint someone else to finish the work potentially at a cost to the original contractor.

Even if he does have a claim, it could be raised once he's found alternative employment. Claiming now against the company who currently pay your wages every month (maybe a little late, but they do pay it!) is not a smart idea IMHO.


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## lowejackson

As with any claim it would depend on the circumstances but could include any back charges, late payment fees and any consequential losses i.e. lower credit rating due to insufficient funds. Of course there could be injury to feelings but this would not be mega money. All of this can be done whilst remaining an employee. We have not been told the outcome of the original grievance, if indeed there is an outcome

There is a potential claim if the OP believes he has been constructively dismissed.

If the OP thinks the situation is untenable then at the very least a potential Tribunal/County Court claim would provide a lot of leverage (to use the awful business expression) in sorting out a decent deal with the employer, along with a guaranteed reference.

On a broader note, if the employer is struggling to pay wages one might question if other things like NI are being paid and is the employer heading towards insolvency. I am assuming the late payment of wages also applies to all the other staff, if it only applies to a few then I would seek immediate legal advice 

As I said early, the easiest course of action is to simply get another job


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## PaulN

Andy is this the lady you moved to when it all kicked off at your last place? I can see a pattern here..........


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## andy665

PaulN said:


> Andy is this the lady you moved to when it all kicked off at your last place? I can see a pattern here..........


Yes it is - it appears to have been resolved now though.

I have explained that my only frustration with my employment is not knowing if I will be paid on time or if my expenses will be paid - (I was due £500+ of expenses to be paid on 24th August - only paid on 21st Sept). If I can be paid on time or at least be advised if there is going to be a delay then thats OK with me - I asked her if this request was unreasonable - she has confirmed that it is totally reasonable and she did not think it had become a "problem"


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## PaulN

The whole being paid late thing really isn't very good I agree... keep bad mouthing employers on a public forum isn't the smartest either.

Not having ago just my personal opinion.


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## Bero

PaulN said:


> The whole being paid late thing really isn't very good I agree... keep bad mouthing employers on a public forum isn't the smartest either.
> 
> Not having ago just my personal opinion.


Who is Andy665? Who is his employer? Where was the employer mentioned? Where was the bad mouthing?


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## andy665

PaulN said:


> The whole being paid late thing really isn't very good I agree... keep bad mouthing employers on a public forum isn't the smartest either.


I have not named the employer

I have not bad mouthed the employer unless you consider stating cold hard facts as "bad mouthing"


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## andy665

I'm edging closer to another job but for the 8th month in succession I'm having problems in being paid

Salary should have gone in Friday (23rd) - despite me sending emails, leaving voicemails etc I got no response until late last night when I received a very terse text stating that salary would be paid today - still no sign


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## lofty

If they are still having cash flow problems then there's a good chance that one month you may not get paid at all. I think the other job you mention can't come soon enough.


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## Kiashuma

Hope you get the new job. Sounds like this outfit will not be around for long.


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## andy665

Kiashuma said:


> Hope you get the new job. Sounds like this outfit will not be around for long.


Must admit its making me increasingly twitchy - trouble is jobs based around what I do are not exactly ten a penny, got things bubbling away for me in several countries now as there is nothing in the UK for me


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## DMERRIT99

andy665 said:


> I fired a warning shot across the bows last week in requesting confirmation that I will be paid on time this month (24th - Thursday) as if there was going to be a delay in payment I may not be able to afford to fly out to Vienna on Sunday with the business (I do not get paid for weekends)
> 
> I have been told that I should not hold the company to ransom and should start acting responsibly - I think I need to start making plans for alternative employment


New model launch by any chance?


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## andy665

DMERRIT99 said:


> New model launch by any chance?


Yes - new Lexus RX


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