# PTFE/Teflon in wax



## JayOW (Dec 8, 2008)

I have been to post this for a while but before i did I wanted to do my own testing.

As some of you may know I have been using PTFE in wax tests for a little over 12 months now and I have made over 100 blends with varying types of PTFE as well as PTFE based wax mixtures and I have come to one conclusion.

PTFE is no good in a wax or a sealent, it can never be used to increase the durability of a wax and as far as I can tell unless you heat your paint upto 500DegC or stick you car in a vacume, you will never get it to bond!

The only thing it could help with is the application of the wax, it could allow it to glide over the paint surface much easier, but whats the point in that, seems alot of extra expence for something that we have had no problems with for years!

What are other peoples thoughts on this? It would be interesting to hear other manufacturers points on the subject, Have they ever experimented with PTFE in blends in the past?

Read here for info on how it is used on pans - http://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2014/10/get-teflon-stick-pans/


----------



## WhiteRoc_170 (Jan 31, 2013)

Isn't this the stuff that's in swissvax sheild? 
And that gets rated highly.


----------



## JayOW (Dec 8, 2008)

I am not here to mention other peoples products or what they contain, but would any wax with PTFE in be exactly the same without it?


----------



## Blackmondie (Mar 13, 2011)

Doesn't PTFE have very good hydrophobic qualities which can make a wax bead and sheet better? In order to use it in waxes/ sealants/coatings, I had the same thoughts about it as you, that it needs to be heated to bond. But another chemist told me that you can get it in a specific form that it does bond.


----------



## JayOW (Dec 8, 2008)

Blackmondie said:


> Doesn't PTFE have very good hydrophobic qualities which can make a wax bead and sheet better? In order to use it in waxes/ sealants/coatings, I had the same thoughts about it as you, that it needs to be heated to bond. But another chemist told me that you can get it in a specific form that it does bond.


If this is possible I will hapilly carry on my research and report back, but I had a very lenghtly chat with someone from http://www.dupont.com/ and they were the original founders of PTFE and they make PTFE in varying ways and loads of different types, and they have told me that non of the ones the produce will work in a wax and they are not aware of any that will work.


----------



## suds (Apr 27, 2012)

Could it be that the PTFE is used in small quantities just to add extra bling and/or hydrophobic properties?


----------



## JayOW (Dec 8, 2008)

suds said:


> Could it be that the PTFE is used in small quantities just to add extra bling and/or hydrophobic properties?


I would like to agree, but if it can not bond to the paint then how can it add anything?


----------



## suds (Apr 27, 2012)

Accepting your comments then my conclusion would be that the PTFE is held in the mix as a bit part player leaving it to other components to actually bond to the bodywork?


----------



## greymda (Feb 16, 2014)

afaik, PTFE helps with that "self-cleaning" ability.


----------



## Wilco (Apr 22, 2010)

greymda said:


> afaik, PTFE helps with that "self-cleaning" ability.


The issue is how though if it needs to be heated to bond to paint/metal. It would just be removed when you wiped the cured wax off surely assuming you could get it to blend in the first place.


----------



## Yellow Dave (Apr 5, 2011)

Not being a chemist, but I'd imagine there are lots of elements in a wax make up that doesn't physically bond to the paint and is just within the make up and carried as such?


----------



## Mikej857 (Jan 17, 2012)

suds said:


> Could it be that the PTFE is used in small quantities just to add extra bling and/or hydrophobic properties?


Aren't there numerous other chemicals and oils which are more natural that can be used for this purpose without adding the chemical scent you get with adding PTFE

I smelt a well known product which has PTFE and it had a very heavy chemical smell to the point where I would never apply it to my paint


----------



## suds (Apr 27, 2012)

Mikej857 said:


> Aren't there numerous other chemicals and oils which are more natural that can be used for this purpose without adding the chemical scent you get with adding PTFE
> 
> I smelt a well known product which has PTFE and it had a very heavy chemical smell to the point where I would never apply it to my paint


Must be the case but manufacturers select ingredients on availability, item cost and ease/cost of production plus other rationale I guess


----------



## The_Bouncer (Nov 24, 2010)

Obsession Wax said:


> I have been to post this for a while but before i did I wanted to do my own testing.
> 
> As some of you may know I have been using PTFE in wax tests for a little over 12 months now and I have made over 100 blends with varying types of PTFE as well as PTFE based wax mixtures and I have come to one conclusion.
> 
> ...


Jay, I used it whilst testing.

Can advise I don't use it now in any products. - Holds no value in a carnauba flashpoint, paste wax formulation.

However there are some good marketers out there - Always will be.



J


----------



## Geordieexile (May 21, 2013)

I once did a very last minute non-scientific test prior to a long journey.
2 waxes from the same manufacturer, one with ptfe and both with reportedly equal carnauba content. The ptfe wax was slightly easier to buff off. The real difference was in bug removal and there was a discernible difference in effort required to remove splattered bugs the day after a 100 mile journey. It was a very slapdash test without major prep, but I may try to do it again in a couple of weeks based on this thread. 

I do have another ptfe based wax from a manufacturer on here that I owe a test to so will do that one seperately on my commuter car.


----------



## adjones (Apr 24, 2013)

Almost all of those claiming the benefits are marketeers or people who are using marketing literature as their information source. PTFE is great as a lubricant, as jay says, but its nature is that things dont stick to it. For non rocket scientists, the extension is that PTFE doesnt stick to things! You can put it into a wax but it will have practically no bond which means it just will not last.


----------



## Geordieexile (May 21, 2013)

adjones said:


> Almost all of those claiming the benefits are marketeers or people who are using marketing literature as their information source. PTFE is great as a lubricant, as jay says, but its nature is that things dont stick to it. For non rocket scientists, the extension is that PTFE doesnt stick to things! You can put it into a wax but it will have practically no bond which means it just will not last.


I don't think anyone would expect it to bond in a wax as the particulate would be held in suspension. There are firms out there who claim to form a different type of bond by temperatures created in mechanical shear by polishers, though it's obvious this is different to the wax question.

I think the questioning should be focussed on whether the ptfe has any effect on dirt adhesion/water behaviour in suspension, rather than whether it bonds to paint.


----------



## Geordieexile (May 21, 2013)

I also forgot to add, I saw no difference in durability from the 2 waxes from the same manufacturer with exactly the same prep and applied in the same conditions at the same time.


----------



## Trip tdi (Sep 3, 2008)

Very interesting sounds if a key component such as PTFE is being advertised and marketed to sell the product quick, but if adds no value and benefits at all then it makes me question certain manufacturers of their product lineup, thanks Jay for clarifying.


----------



## JayOW (Dec 8, 2008)

Maybe some manufacturers have found a way to get PTFE to bond, who knows. Be interested to hear from them without them giving anything away! But imho and from my own research I agree with jay and believe it's mostly marketing.


----------



## suds (Apr 27, 2012)

Looking forward to any comments from manufacturers who use PTFE- or will that come under closely guarded 'Trade Secret' just to frustrate the question? So of those waxes incorporating PTFE- do they stay cleaner longer, look more blingie? And if they do what are the ingredients responsible for the difference? I honestly don't have the answers, just plenty of questions..


----------



## khurum6392 (Oct 11, 2012)

i agree its just all marketing for companies to get stupid money for waxes


----------



## The_Bouncer (Nov 24, 2010)

Just bear in mind labeling on wax products, well apart from listing any hazards on the msds (those that do msds...) - you can literally market anything.

I'm not saying people do, I'm not saying people don't - example the Dodo boys have fought long and hard over the years against ingredient claims.

However, I 'could' get a PTFE flake, similar in size to a bead of beeswax, put it into a 10kg wax batch and claim rightly so that the wax 'contains' ptfe.

As no manufacturer would ever provide a recipe under secrecy terms, then that's where any investigation would end. However a manufacturer should be able to advise you what the addition of such an ingredient brings to the blend. However as a manufacturer, they would rightly be able to claim it has PTFE in it.

Anyway, above is my personal ish thoughts, not directed at anyone nor degrading any other products. I know what goes in mine and that's all that matters tbh.



.


----------



## Geordieexile (May 21, 2013)

Just to satisfy my curiosity, is anyone aware of a wax where the manufacturer claims that the PTFE itself forms a bond?


----------



## Mikej857 (Jan 17, 2012)

Simple google search brings this up, some serious claims on durability here

http://www.carwaxwashpolish.com/x1-shine-and-seal-2.html


----------



## Geordieexile (May 21, 2013)

Agreed, serious claims indeed, though I didn't see anything on bonding and it didn't look like a traditional 'wax'.


----------



## Adot (Sep 14, 2014)

It is my thought that PTFE would not need to bond to paint. If it did it would be permanent like a coating on a pan...

Would it not be the case that providing the PTFE remains within the applied wax mixture/blend then it will exhibit it's properties. Such as slick feeling and easier cleaning etc.

I mean, oils don't really bond to paint as far as I'm aware yet waxes contain them nearly all the time. If they do bond, it's not very well because if I went outside, smeared sunflower oil on my ride, it would mostly wash off with rain within a weeks or month at most.

Just moy thoughts which I think are pretty logic based. That said, I also can't help but notice it's all a bit odd with waxes. Otto did that test in the Wax thread where Candelila wax was just as good and durable as carnuba yet no one uses that much.

He also highlighted how candelila is produced in smaller quantities and is more expensive. Some how, it's all about carnuba still.

I think it's a case of people will believe what they want to and not what is logical or founded on fact and testing.


----------



## hibberd (Jul 5, 2006)

I spoke to my guy here who is a chemist and elastomer guru. He says it does help (we don't have a vested interest in car waxes or anything and don't make them) he says it will reduce the friction coefficient of the wax. once its brought onto the car the PTFE will stay in it and makes cleaning and water resistance better. He stressed that if the wax is gone the PTFE is gone too. its does not bind to anything easily but is used in elastomers to help reduce friction.


----------



## SBM (Jul 4, 2013)

Yes Fusso wax from Nipponshine...
Here's the thread:
http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=328751&highlight=fusso

About the 5th or 6th picture shows the label stating a PTFE coating


----------



## Goodylax (Apr 21, 2013)

Lol- I guess Itus won't be making a comeback Jay


----------



## TOGWT (Oct 26, 2005)

Bouncer is spot on with his comments. PTFE will not bond to paint unless it is heated, wax doesn't bond to paint, it's 'held' in the micro pores forming an anchor. PTFE is a polymer and as such its only contribution could be to help with initial spreadability

" This wax contains PTFE" there is nothing untruthful, we just associate PTFE with its non-stick properties. Marketing science fiction and pure suggestion ...


----------



## angelw (Nov 25, 2009)

As previous manufacturers have stated PTFE as it stands has NO beneficial qualities in a car wax.
This may be one thing that all of us who develop and manufacture wax will probably agree on!


----------



## angelw (Nov 25, 2009)

I do however reserve the right to amend the above statement if I can work out how to do it😃


----------



## Guitarjon (Jul 13, 2012)

Interesting thread, nothing to add but I'll keep popping back. Seems like a but of a marketing ploy.


----------



## JayOW (Dec 8, 2008)

angelw said:


> As previous manufacturers have stated PTFE as it stands has NO beneficial qualities in a car wax.
> This may be one thing that all of us who develop and manufacture wax will probably agree on!


Agree 100%. And likewise. I I figure out a way I will start another thread! Lol.


----------



## adjones (Apr 24, 2013)

TOGWT said:


> Bouncer is spot on with his comments. PTFE will not bond to paint unless it is heated, wax doesn't bond to paint, it's 'held' in the micro pores forming an anchor. PTFE is a polymer and as such its only contribution could be to help with initial spreadability




I don't think that 'anchor' comment is accurate. You are also stating that the fact that it is "a polymer and as such its only contribution could be to help with initial spreadability". Yes, it may be a polymer but that doesn't lead to its only contribution being to help with initial spreadability. There are endless polymers which this does not apply to.

Someone earlier implied that it was obvious that PFTE did not bond, else it would be permanent. This is a vast oversimplification and inaccurate. Bonding is not black and white, it is shades of grey. There are different types of bonding, each of which has different strengths. Within the types, there are further divisions again. There are many things which bond quite well but are far from permanent.


----------



## Bod42 (Jun 4, 2009)

I have never made my own wax so have zero experience so this is a question. Does PTFE have anti-stick properties in its pre-heated state? If so and its mixed into the wax formula, it cant exactly just suddenly disappear once applied. So even if it doesnt "bond", just being suspended in the wax formula would have benefits wouldnt it?

Thats 3 or 4 wax makers coming to same the same conclusion that its useless but why did you come to this conclusion, because scientifically you know it wont bond or have you carried out tests to see if it is more non-stick.


----------



## JayOW (Dec 8, 2008)

I have carried out test, Made 2 waxes(I have tried 100+ formulas, not just 2), both identical in makeup apart from the added PTFE. the PTFE wax had a little more slip on application but only a little, in terms of durability there was no difference in the 2, both left the test car just as filthy. 

From a scientific point of view it wont work.
From a PTFE manufacturers point of view, it wont work.
From my point of view, which is all down to the science behind it and the testing, it wont work.

So, yes a wax is ever so slightly easier to apply, but this is hardly noticeable when both are used side by side. 

PTFE has a melting point of 326.8 °C, Carnauba has a boiling point of 340 °C approx, so there is no way you can melt PTFE into carnauba without the nuba boiling over! So the only way is to use it is in suspension in the formula. Which as other people have said is pointless.


----------



## Adot (Sep 14, 2014)

Why can't you just boil the Carnauba then and melt them together??
If you had a fully kitted out lab and facilities, couldn't this could be done...???


----------



## stonejedi (Feb 2, 2008)

I still love Swissvax Shield,so there....SJ.


----------



## hibberd (Jul 5, 2006)

Looks like everyone is taking clear sides on this one, I can say the guy I questioned here is a chemist and has a PhD in Elastomer technology, if he says it helps and I know we use it in our elastomers, then I think the thread needs to be viewed from another angle. (I trust his judgement as its as hard as hell to ever get a ********** answer from him for a question and here he was adamant) Its for me NOT does it work Yes or No (which is being disputed here), ITS how much does it help, a little or more than a little.


----------



## Blackroc (Dec 10, 2012)

Without going off topic too much - what about Coatings (Sio2 etc..) that are added to waxes for very similar reasons to PTFE? Are those claims also to be disputed?


----------



## JayOW (Dec 8, 2008)

Adot said:


> Why can't you just boil the Carnauba then and melt them together??
> If you had a fully kitted out lab and facilities, couldn't this could be done...???


But even if it can be done. What would be the point?


----------



## JayOW (Dec 8, 2008)

stonejedi said:


> I still love Swissvax Shield,so there....SJ.


It's a great wax. No doubt about it!


----------



## JayOW (Dec 8, 2008)

Blackroc said:


> Without going off topic too much - what about Coatings (Sio2 etc..) that are added to waxes for very similar reasons to PTFE? Are those claims also to be disputed?


Silicons are different, a lot of them cure at room temperature and dont require 500Deg of heat to bond!

The general thought here is that PTFE aids in the application of the wax by creating more slip, but thats about it?


----------



## fatdazza (Dec 29, 2010)

People are talking about the need for 500 degree heat for PTFE to "bond". Why does it need to "bond" - wax does not bond?


----------



## JayOW (Dec 8, 2008)

Interesting Read - http://ditecauto.com/faq/wax.html


----------



## suds (Apr 27, 2012)

Does PTFE in a product assist repelling dirt? If not which constituents do, if any?


----------



## Adot (Sep 14, 2014)

Obsession Wax said:


> But even if it can be done. What would be the point?


The point would be because guys here are stating that others they know with a PHD in the field are saying PTFE DOES benefit the wax in terms of resisting adhesion.

I appreciate you really know your stuff with waxes. I do not dispute that at all to be clear, however, I think a company like Swissvax with Shield has probably invested a lot of money in research and development (most likely on a much larger scale than small to medium sized businesses) to develop something like Shield with PTFE content. My point on that is that there exists a realistic possibility that they know something we don't.

Would it surprise you if they had consulted a small team, say 5 strong, with PHDs in this field to develop them a formula over a couple of weeks or months????

I don't know whether it's beneficial or not, however, I won't rule it out as I am not an expert in this field to confirm OR deny it. Therefore it has to remain a possibility in my mind.


----------



## cragglemieSTer (Oct 5, 2008)

i looked into it, tried a couple of blends and didn't pursue it following a convo with 2 separate chemists that both said exactly as you have found.


----------



## suds (Apr 27, 2012)

Well irrespective of opinions I nominate this a THREAD of the YEAR- Fantastic to challenge common perceptions and beliefs. MY only regret is that more members haven't contributed...


----------



## angelw (Nov 25, 2009)

The thing is when you incorporate PTFE into a solid wax you have two problems ,the first is getting the PTFE incorporated uniformly into the wax ,as you can't melt it in like carnauba ,it will either float to the top or sink to the bottom.
Next if you do get on to the car it will be difficult to get the benefit of its non stick properties as it is a surface active wax and it will be hard to achieve a surface effect from a non mobile coating.


----------



## gally (May 25, 2008)

First up, stunning thread. Best one on DW in a long time!

My main reason for posting was to note, apart from Jay, no big brand names have contributed. Telling.


----------



## Blackroc (Dec 10, 2012)

gally said:


> First up, stunning thread. Best one on DW in a long time!
> 
> My main reason for posting was to note, apart from Jay, no big brand names have contributed. Telling.


You've missed Angelwax posting twice then have you


----------



## adjones (Apr 24, 2013)

Adot said:


> The point would be because guys here are stating that others they know with a PHD in the field are saying PTFE DOES benefit the wax in terms of resisting adhesion.
> 
> I appreciate you really know your stuff with waxes. I do not dispute that at all to be clear, however, I think a company like Swissvax with Shield has probably invested a lot of money in research and development (most likely on a much larger scale than small to medium sized businesses) to develop something like Shield with PTFE content. My point on that is that there exists a realistic possibility that they know something we don't.
> 
> ...


The thing is that, if you look at the contributors to this thread, you have at least one PhD in the area and one manufacturer (who is likely responsible for as many waxes discussed on DW as any one else) who are saying that ptfe is of little to no benefit.

Swisswax - what size do you think that they are? This is a common misconception. People look at big brand names in detailing and believe the hype. As example, the most discussed brand on DW have almost zero chemical knowledge and buy almost everything in. They talk a big game but they don't have a research team of PhD scientists. I'm not sure that you are not assuming way too much of Swisswax as well.


----------



## suds (Apr 27, 2012)

suds said:


> Does PTFE in a product assist repelling dirt? If not which constituents do, if any?


Does anyone know the answer?


----------



## Kash-Jnr (Mar 24, 2013)

Very interesting read! Waxstock will feel a little different this year..


----------



## Adot (Sep 14, 2014)

adjones said:


> The thing is that, if you look at the contributors to this thread, you have at least one PhD in the area and one manufacturer (who is likely responsible for as many waxes discussed on DW as any one else) who are saying that ptfe is of little to no benefit.
> 
> Swisswax - what size do you think that they are? This is a common misconception. People look at big brand names in detailing and believe the hype. As example, the most discussed brand on DW have almost zero chemical knowledge and buy almost everything in. They talk a big game but they don't have a research team of PhD scientists. I'm not sure that you are not assuming way too much of Swisswax as well.


There are people supporting either side of the discussion. Reference size if Swissvax I don't know but I suggested the liklihood of them having consulted people in the know.

I'm just aware that it is a fairly brazen statement to make unless you really are in the know. Especially given that, for most of us, Shield will pop to mind. I'm no expert hence I remain open minded on the matter.

I think it's safe to say that the level of scientific knowledge is likely to be beyond most of us. Hence why I maintain the possibility of its benefit but am clear on saying that I am in no position to confirm of deny.

Please don't take my comments as support for PTFE being beneficial. I am merely remaining open minded rather than take a side with little knowledge on the matter.


----------



## gally (May 25, 2008)

Blackroc said:


> You've missed Angelwax posting twice then have you


My apologies to AW but i'm sure you see my point.


----------



## JayOW (Dec 8, 2008)

suds said:


> Does anyone know the answer?


Not in the blends I have tested. Most waxes will repel dirty water as per most videos of coating on YouTube. But this is down to the polymers. For example my phantom wax has 4 different polymers in it. 1 to aid durability. 1 to help with gloss and 1 to help with application and removal and 1 is for UV protection. But I have not tested the UV protection qualities of the wax yet so I don't advertise it as having them.


----------



## JayOW (Dec 8, 2008)

But I am with AW on this one. Until I find a way of making it work and have 100% side by side proof that it does work I will not be using it in any of my blends.


----------



## suds (Apr 27, 2012)

Obsession Wax said:


> Not in the blends I have tested. Most waxes will repel dirty water as per most videos of coating on YouTube. But this is down to the polymers. For example my phantom wax has 4 different polymers in it. 1 to aid durability. 1 to help with gloss and 1 to help with application and removal and 1 is for UV protection. But I have not tested the UV protection qualities of the wax yet so I don't advertise it as having them.


Which reminds me of one of my initial thoughts- are producers using "PTFE" as a generic phrase when actually using something like a co-polymer based (loosely or otherwise) on the original? Although in any event I have no idea whether that just presents the same issues debated. Still a cracking thread and I've never knowingly bought a wax with "PTFE" - clearly this thread should at least make people think twice...


----------



## Obi- Dan Karnubi (Jun 16, 2011)

I've also tried and tested various ptfe waxes, solutions etc but i have not found one that gave me more durability or better resistance to chemicals or dirt/grime. I came to the same conclusion as other manufacturers on here. I've found there's much better ingredients for durability/resistance/water behaviour. That's not too say its impossible.

Dan


----------



## JayOW (Dec 8, 2008)

Tonight I am going to make a new batch of phantom. I am going to produce 2 pots but one will have ptfe powder in it and the other wont. Will be an interesting test.


----------



## Mikej857 (Jan 17, 2012)

Obsession Wax said:


> Tonight I am going to make a new batch of phantom. I am going to produce 2 pots but one will have ptfe powder in it and the other wont. Will be an interesting test.


With all the comments I'm intrigued to know the results, Phantom is one of the easiest waxes I use thats currently available so will the ptfe add or detract from this?


----------



## Trip tdi (Sep 3, 2008)

I'm just thinking of swissvax endurance, this has a different method to apply the panel temperature has to be 30 degrees and over for it to bond fully and work to its maximum life as attended, I was informed endurance has more ptfe than sheild and is on the pro market for retailers, will ir work the ptfe or is this marketing waffle to sell the product in quick volume. I know ptfe treatments offer a smoother glide and a silky smooth finish, in theory offer less resistance to airboutne particles but for how long, I have a feeling the ptfe will be washed away in the next wash.


----------



## Trip tdi (Sep 3, 2008)

This thread is a eye opener for sure and extremely interesting.


----------



## stangalang (Nov 27, 2009)

I have a request to the wax producers in this thread, and or chemists. As a complete novice in such maters, i can only speak from a detailers perspective. The products i have used that "contain ptfe", and please don't think i make assumptions about percentages etc, are all very slippy to apply and very slick on the paint. Would you guys be able to figure out what it IS that they are using to make their products so? Assuming they do "contain ptfe", in minute quantities, and this makes little to no difference to the actual wax, then whatever Is creating the limited drag should be easy to find? Other polymers etc. Can this be done?

Just a differing way to nail down a proper answer!


----------



## angelw (Nov 25, 2009)

As previously stated PTFE in a solid paste style wax is a waste of time ,it doesn't work and will either sink to the bottom of the pot or float to the top ,depending on the carrier solvent mix.
It is in my opinion as a degree qualified chemist ,that PTFE doesn't give any benefit in a paste wax.


----------



## suds (Apr 27, 2012)

Obsession Wax said:


> Tonight I am going to make a new batch of phantom. I am going to produce 2 pots but one will have ptfe powder in it and the other wont. Will be an interesting test.


Forget Wimbledon- this is the final I'm looking forward to :thumb:


----------



## Alex L (Oct 25, 2005)

Quite an interesting topic :thumb:

I wonder if we'll see a ptfe based wax in the future? in a similar vein on TACs FB they are working on a 100% silica glass coating. The biggest problem theyre having is knowing how to apply it correctly.


----------



## Pittsy (Jun 14, 2014)

Now i have just had a read through this thread (a bit bored at work) and i have got a couple of things to add...
Please bear in mind i am no expert in any of this, i have a vague idea about polymer science because of the industry i work in (plastics).
I am currently talking to a couple of companies about getting some machine parts teflon coated to aid with slip (PET bottles are really sticky especially when warm) for a new project at work.
Now both companies have told me that the parts need to be sent to them, why i asked and they said for the coating to bond to the parts it needs to be baked on at high temperature.....
With this in mind you would have to stick your car in a massive oven to get any benefit from the PTFE so it bonds to the paint work.
I then discussed spray application with them, they told me that PTFE sprays hold the the PTFE in suspension and any non slip benefits are only short lived because of the carriers, as in when the carrier is gone the PTFE goes too.
We also use Teflon coated tape for a variety of different applications, yet again i discussed this with the coaters and they said that the Teflon on the tape is yet again heated to a really high temperature to get it to bond with the tape.

With all this in mind the only benefit i can see of having PTFE in a wax would be in suspended form as an aid for application, because there is no bond to the paintwork or to the wax it is suspended in (please note suspended rather than bonded with because of the incompatability of the melting points).

So PTFE molecules suspended in wax should aid with application but thats it...

Now this is just what i can extrapalate from the information i know so please dont take this as fact.:thumb:


----------



## JayOW (Dec 8, 2008)

suds said:


> Forget Wimbledon- this is the final I'm looking forward to :thumb:


2 samples made and passed on for testing purposes. I had to make sure the wax was like custard before pouring so the ptfe stayed in suspension rather than sinking to the bottom.


----------



## Pittsy (Jun 14, 2014)

Obsession Wax said:


> 2 samples made and passed on for testing purposes. I had to make sure the wax was like custard before pouring so the ptfe stayed in suspension rather than sinking to the bottom.


Do they look or pour any different?


----------



## TOGWT (Oct 26, 2005)

a)	Teflon® PTFE (DuPont): _[: a polymer of the monomer tetrafluoroethylene]_

Teflon® will help 'spread ability' (but then so do silicon oils) it does nothing for durability because of its required application method-although Teflon® is an exceptional product when used as intended; it provides no benefit in a wax or polish.

1) According to G.R. Ansul of DuPont's Car Care Products, Specialty Products Division, "The addition of a Teflon® fluoropolymer resin (PTFE) does nothing to enhance the properties of a car wax.

We have no data that indicates the use of Teflon® fluoropolymer resins is beneficial in car waxes, and we have not seen data from other people that support this position." Manufacturers of gimmicky, over-hyped products sometimes claim that their products contain Teflon®, hoping that the consumer will believe there is something special about that product.

Ansul also notes that, "Unless Teflon® is applied at 700 degrees F, and using a dissolving chemical C8, it is not a viable ingredient, and is 100 percent useless in protecting the paint's finish." This is hot enough that your car's paint (let alone your car) wouldn't survive.

Information resource-
Grisanti, Stephen "The Truth About Teflon®" Professional Car washing & Detailing, Jan1989)

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-...ww.fluoropolymer-facts.com/w...opolymers.html


----------



## JayOW (Dec 8, 2008)

Pittsy said:


> Do they look or pour any different?


Nope both look exactly the same. And feel the same.


----------



## Pittsy (Jun 14, 2014)

Obsession Wax said:


> Nope both look exactly the same. And feel the same.


Well there you go then, i guess the test will be in application and performance there after :thumb:

This thread has got me interested so i think i am going to drop a line to the coating company and see if they have got any info :thumb:


----------



## angelw (Nov 25, 2009)

Coatings and waxes, two totally different things,there is no real comparison between the two.


----------



## adjones (Apr 24, 2013)

Alex L said:


> Quite an interesting topic :thumb:
> 
> I wonder if we'll see a ptfe based wax in the future? in a similar vein on TACs FB they are working on a 100% silica glass coating. The biggest problem theyre having is knowing how to apply it correctly.


I am taking this with an ENORMOUS pinch of salt. The reality is that 100% silica glass is... errrrr... silica glass! That makes it, for most intents and purposes, a solid piece of glass. I would interpret that they are likely playing the carnauba content game - the product would not be 100% silica glass but the part which constitutes the final coating (i.e. not carriers etc) would be 100% silica glass. To complicate this further, I understand that these coatings are reactive - they are not actually silica glass in solution. They are a mix of other things which, when applied and exposed to the atmosphere, become a silica coating. As such, there isn't actually any silica in the product (unless it has started curing prematurely).

Another comment of note is that PTFE is used inaccurately by many people. Many (if not most) detailers, with whom I have spoken, don't know that a fluoropolymer (i.e. a fluorine containing polymer) is distinct from PTFE. The reality is that PTFE is one fluoropolymer and there are thousands of them out there. Fluoropolymers are used in detailing products (although are often discouraged in the EU because of regulatory issues) and, as I understand, they would have potential to be used in waxes (although, again, as slip additives). However, anyone claiming that these products contain PTFE would be demonstrating a massive lack of chemical knowledge.


----------



## AllenF (Aug 20, 2012)

More bloody hype lol.
Ptfe only really has one use.
That is to stop leaks.. Never tried polishing a motor with a roll of it though


----------



## camerashy (Feb 9, 2014)

AllenF said:


> More bloody hype lol.
> Ptfe only really has one use.
> That is to stop leaks.. Never tried polishing a motor with a roll of it though


:lol:


----------



## Wilco (Apr 22, 2010)

So here we go.

Two Phantom blends picked up from Jay last night. Very little difference in the two in feel and smell to be honest.










On closer inspection Number 1 has the tell tail signs of slightly inconsistent colouring on the bottom of the jar.










The test car is my fathers V70. Bonnet was polished and this was followed by a thorough wipe down with Gyeon Prep. I want to give these waxes the best possible chance on bare paint here.

I've used Phantom a lot and have plenty of experience with its application and removal. I split the bonnet 50/50 and applied the PTFE enhanced wax to the drivers side and standard phantom to the passengers side of the bonnet.

There was very little difference if at all in application, they both spread nicely and cured in around five minutes in warm temperature.

Removal was as easy as ever with both waxes although I have found that the PTFE wax left a residue that required a second and in some parts third buff to remove totally. Normally I'd have used a qd here to help finish things off but I want the waxes to stay as they have been made with as little outside effect on them as possible.

After the bonnet was done I glazed the rest of the car and applied the waxes again to the same sides that they are on the bonnet. In the coming weeks I'll update to how the two perform against each other.

As it stands at the moment though I see no real benefit from the PTFE addition, in fact its probably made phantom worse to use if any thing but time will tell as regards longevity.

A couple of vids I made to show how little if any difference there is between the two waxes.

NOTE. The PTFE blend is on the drivers side(left as you look)











Hope this helps a bit but we'll see, I'm sure Jay will be able to update to the actual differences in the blends.


----------



## fatdazza (Dec 29, 2010)

While the test of the 2 Phantom blends may be interesting, there is the possibility that other manufacturers production methods may be different to Obsession.

Without knowing if other manufacturers use the same technique, all this will prove is whether the addition of powdered PTFE affects a wax. Unless someone can confirm that the only way of adding PTFE to a wax is the way used by Obsession?


----------



## angelw (Nov 25, 2009)

Given that it is just about impossible to add PTFE to a wax in any other way ,I would imagine that Obsession's technique would be similar to how I would do it.


----------



## Alex L (Oct 25, 2005)

That was my thought when I saw the Kamikaze Miyabi with its claimed 95%. Not knowing too much chemistry, I have no idea the difference between Miyabi and its VOC free solvents versus say Sparkle with its 75% and chemical solvents requireing correct respirators to apply. And I'm sure Miyabi should be resporator use as well but thats another topic lol.

Cause how does the silica/nuba waxes mix up then?



adjones said:


> I am taking this with an ENORMOUS pinch of salt. The reality is that 100% silica glass is... errrrr... silica glass! That makes it, for most intents and purposes, a solid piece of glass. I would interpret that they are likely playing the carnauba content game - the product would not be 100% silica glass but the part which constitutes the final coating (i.e. not carriers etc) would be 100% silica glass. To complicate this further, I understand that these coatings are reactive - they are not actually silica glass in solution. They are a mix of other things which, when applied and exposed to the atmosphere, become a silica coating. As such, there isn't actually any silica in the product (unless it has started curing prematurely).
> 
> Another comment of note is that PTFE is used inaccurately by many people. Many (if not most) detailers, with whom I have spoken, don't know that a fluoropolymer (i.e. a fluorine containing polymer) is distinct from PTFE. The reality is that PTFE is one fluoropolymer and there are thousands of them out there. Fluoropolymers are used in detailing products (although are often discouraged in the EU because of regulatory issues) and, as I understand, they would have potential to be used in waxes (although, again, as slip additives). However, anyone claiming that these products contain PTFE would be demonstrating a massive lack of chemical knowledge.


----------



## hibberd (Jul 5, 2006)

When looking on the web for more info on this I stumbled across this site

http://www.ditecinternational.com/learning-center/waxes/teflon-ptfe/index.html

Their comments on what it does is one thing,

*This was there and its another but more important thing, its there to read but its important to copy it here as I enjoy detailing as a hobby not as a form of suicide...*

TEFLON: An Environmental and Personal Health Issue

Perfluorooctanoic Acid, PFOA, is one of the key components in manufacturing of Teflon. This synthetic chemical has found its way to everyone blood and creates serious environmental and health issues for all life on our planet.

All new man-made chemicals must undergo rigorous testing to be marketed in Europe and DuPont's Teflon is about to be included in the long list of chemicals that may not be marketed in Europe. Canada is the first country to enforce a total limitation of usage and marketing of Teflon.

The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) has at last initiated a review of the potential health risks and exposure routes of PFOA and its most commonly used salts, including ammonium perfluorooctanoate (commonly referred to as C8), which is used in Teflon production.

So, even IF Teflon could protect (which it doesn't) a painted surface and make it shiny (which it doesn't), the danger of including this chemical in our daily life would be great enough to justify other alternative with better result and performance.


----------



## TOGWT (Oct 26, 2005)

adjones said:


> I am taking this with an ENORMOUS pinch of salt. The reality is that 100% silica glass is... errrrr... silica glass! That makes it, for most intents and purposes, a solid piece of glass. I would interpret that they are likely playing the carnauba content game - the product would not be 100% silica glass but the part which constitutes the final coating (i.e. not carriers etc) would be 100% silica glass. To complicate this further, I understand that these coatings are reactive - they are not actually silica glass in solution. They are a mix of other things which, when applied and exposed to the atmosphere, become a silica coating. As such, there isn't actually any silica in the product (unless it has started curing prematurely).


A common element in a coating formula, Silicon dioxide (SiO2) also known as silica, is a chemical compound that is an oxide of silicon. Silica is most commonly found in nature as quartz.

Often misnamed as a glass coating, however glass is an amorphous (non-crystalline) solid material which is often transparent. Of the many silica-based glasses that exist, ordinary glazing and container glass is formed from a specific type called soda-lime glass, composed of approximately 75% silicon dioxide (SiO2), sodium oxide (Na2O) from sodium carbonate (Na2CO3), calcium oxide, (CaO), and several minor additives.


----------



## adjones (Apr 24, 2013)

TOGWT said:


> A common element in a coating formula, Silicon dioxide (SiO2) also known as silica, is a chemical compound that is an oxide of silicon. Silica is most commonly found in nature as quartz.
> 
> Often misnamed as a glass coating, however glass is an amorphous (non-crystalline) solid material which is often transparent. Of the many silica-based glasses that exist, ordinary glazing and container glass is formed from a specific type called soda-lime glass, composed of approximately 75% silicon dioxide (SiO2), sodium oxide (Na2O) from sodium carbonate (Na2CO3), calcium oxide, (CaO), and several minor additives.


And your point is....??


----------



## Mikej857 (Jan 17, 2012)

Well today I tested Jays PTFE blend of phantom

You'll notice there a distinct colour difference in between the samples and the PTFE looks to have sunk to the bottom of wax



















Application was absolutely no different to my big pot of Phantom, it was easy to spread from both samples and the texture was exactly the same with regard to firmness and oil content.

Buffing was no different either if anything the PTFE seemed to take a couple more buffs to remove but still not difficult but really I couldn't tell the difference as it was fairly warm and Phantom does haze quickly in its normal blend anyway.

My opinion is the addition of the PTFE hasn't added anything to this particular wax


----------



## Bod42 (Jun 4, 2009)

Pittsy said:


> Now i have just had a read through this thread (a bit bored at work) and i have got a couple of things to add...
> Please bear in mind i am no expert in any of this, i have a vague idea about polymer science because of the industry i work in (plastics).
> I am currently talking to a couple of companies about getting some machine parts teflon coated to aid with slip (PET bottles are really sticky especially when warm) for a new project at work.
> Now both companies have told me that the parts need to be sent to them, why i asked and they said for the coating to bond to the parts it needs to be baked on at high temperature.....
> ...


This is the bit that interests me. So you can get PTFE in spray form but it only lasts as long as its carrier. Wouldnt the wax be the carrier in this instance so waxes last from 2 weeks to lets say 6 months so wouldnt the PTFE last the same amount of time?


----------



## angelw (Nov 25, 2009)

Bod42 said:


> This is the bit that interests me. So you can get PTFE in spray form but it only lasts as long as its carrier. Wouldnt the wax be the carrier in this instance so waxes last from 2 weeks to lets say 6 months so wouldnt the PTFE last the same amount of time?


The point is that as a wax is molten when made and cools to its final hardened stage,as you add the PTFE to the molten wax it will sink and won't be held in suspension.
PTFE is a waste of time and there are better things about for in proving slip and water behaviour.


----------



## JayOW (Dec 8, 2008)

^^ exactly. In order to get molten ptfe to mix in a wax blend we would need to find a solvent that is stable at 360+ degC. Otherwise it will either be a solid lump at the bottom of your beaker or a mass of white powder at the bottom of your wax pot!


----------



## Pittsy (Jun 14, 2014)

And..... I would imagine that any ptfe particals that are suspended/ bonded in the wax would be encased by the wax therefore the 1st point of contact on the paint would be the wax rather than the ptfe:thumb:

If you imagine a sausage roll.... The 1st thing you bite into is the pastry not the sausage so a sausage might be really slippery when you drag it on the work top but add the pastry and it doesn't work so well 

Now a spray qd might work if you wanted a wet looking car all the time but as soon as you remove the oil based carrier the ptfe gets removed too


----------



## Adot (Sep 14, 2014)

Maybe someone can help with this, perhaps John or Jay.

I didn't think a wax bonded at all in the technical form of speaking. I mean not permamently but is more help on the paintwork for a few weeks/ months. Is this right?

Secondly, certain substances in a wax bond only to certain substances right? So is it right to say that durability of various ingredients are only based on the durability of what they bond to?

Take for example Silicone oils. Am I right in saying they don't bond either? Is it also correct to say that some are miscible in certain solvents that can be used? If that is correct then once the solvent gases out, it too is left without bonding to another ingredient which is the same as PTFE (as I'm understadning this anyway. Could be wrong hence my questions). Silicone oils still work well in waxes even though, to my knowledge, they don't bond to the paintwork in the same way PTFE won't bond to paintwork. With exception to cooking the car first lol.

Anyway, my point is that, if suspended in the mixture of wax once applied, it's there and can do it job even if for a small amount of time?

Then, this is not about whether it can bond or not but more about the actual measurable benefits of PTFE in it's non coating form?

Your take on this would be greatly appreciated as this is confusing the whole wax thing in my mind..


----------



## Alex L (Oct 25, 2005)

Adot said:


> stuff.


The way I've understood what John, Jay et al are trying to point out, is having PTFE in a wax is about as much use as putting a turnip in wax :thumb:


----------



## adjones (Apr 24, 2013)

Adot said:


> Maybe someone can help with this, perhaps John or Jay.
> 
> I didn't think a wax bonded at all in the technical form of speaking. I mean not permamently but is more help on the paintwork for a few weeks/ months. Is this right?
> 
> ...


Bonding is such a broad term that is used so loosely in detailing circles. It is very hard to get something that does not bond at all. Just because something does not bond covalently, does not mean that it does not bond otherwise (e.g. van der waals type bonding).


----------



## Adot (Sep 14, 2014)

adjones said:


> Bonding is such a broad term that is used so loosely in detailing circles. It is very hard to get something that does not bond at all. Just because something does not bond covalently, does not mean that it does not bond otherwise (e.g. van der waals type bonding).


It would appear we are just as much amateur scientists as detailers lol:speechles


----------



## Mikej857 (Jan 17, 2012)

Alex L said:


> The way I've understood what John, Jay et al are trying to point out, is having PTFE in a wax is about as much use as putting a turnip in wax :thumb:


From the experimental blend it would seem your correct and my understanding is it won't work in a QD either because of the extreme heat needed and the fact you can clearly see from the sample the PTFE has sunk straight to the bottom during the blending and pouring process


----------



## Alex L (Oct 25, 2005)

Adot said:


> It would appear we are just as much amateur scientists as detailers lol:speechles


That could be a bit insulting to a couple of people in this thread :lol: I mean it's not like they have phd's or anything :lol:


----------



## adjones (Apr 24, 2013)

Adot said:


> It would appear we are just as much amateur scientists as detailers lol:speechles


Absolutely - though there are some non-amateurs as well.

As I noted before, there is a big difference between ptfe and 'fluorine containing' compounds. PTFE in a wax really serves no good purpose, other fluoro chemistry is much more plausible and useful.


----------



## fatdazza (Dec 29, 2010)

Obsession Wax said:


> ^^ exactly. In order to get molten ptfe to mix in a wax blend we would need to find a solvent that is stable at 360+ degC. Otherwise it will either be a solid lump at the bottom of your beaker or a mass of white powder at the bottom of your wax pot!


Why does the solvent need to be stable at 360 deg c? Surely the idea of the solvent is to dissolve the ptfe? The ptfe does not need to be molten to be dissolved does it? Sorry if I have got this all wrong


----------



## JayOW (Dec 8, 2008)

fatdazza said:


> Why does the solvent need to be stable at 360 deg c? Surely the idea of the solvent is to dissolve the ptfe? The ptfe does not need to be molten to be dissolved does it? Sorry if I have got this all wrong


I would love to find a solvent that will dissolve ptfe powder. Is is stable in most solvents.


----------



## fatdazza (Dec 29, 2010)

Obsession Wax said:


> I would love to find a solvent that will dissolve ptfe powder. Is is stable in most solvents.


Thanks for clearing that up :thumb:


----------



## adjones (Apr 24, 2013)

Obsession Wax said:


> I would love to find a solvent that will dissolve ptfe powder. Is is stable in most solvents.


You can do it but it needs nasty and expensive solvents, high pressure and high temperature. None of this is going to be suitable for a car wax.


----------

