# The shift to an EV........



## Coops

I'm in the very fortunate position of having a company car - currently a '68 plate Volvo V90 R-Design D4. It's fully funded - lease, insurance, maintenance, tyres and fuel (inc private mileage). Yes I pay both car and fuel BIK on it but it works for me.

Our company has recently made the very bold decision to transition all it's company car fleet to electric vehicles over the next few years. Further comms were sent out to us yesterday and they are investigating the possibility of terminating leases earlier than planned. Typically our cars are on 4 year leases, I have 20 months left on mine.

So I thought I'd start a little thread to highlight my research into EVs. My model choices vary but I could be looking at a choice of the following:


Kia e-Nero 
Tesla Model 3 
Mercedes Benz EQC 
Audi E-Tron
Jaguar I-Pace
Tesla Model S

Employees will need to make a (monthly salary sacrifice) contribution towards the desired model - which can vary from £0 to £350 per month. We'll be fully responsible for charging (whether that's at home or at public chargers) - no allowance will be given towards a home charger. The lease, insurance and maintenance will continue to be borne by the company. Business mileage can be claimed back at 4p per mile (as per HMRC rates)

Interesting time eh?!

Initial thoughts for me:


Daily round trip commute varies between 75 miles and 110 miles so I have no issue with range from this perspective
Family is all local within 30 mile round trip
I can have a charger at home and move to a home EV elec tariff to give me cheap (3p per KwH) off peak charging capabilities
Tesla Supercharger network is a positive
Non Tesla charging network is a negative
Charging on the road appears to be both expensive and problematic at times (non-Tesla)
Furthest client is 116 miles away so could possibly only do that with the Tesla 3 or S without a recharge
Don't really like the Merc
Think the I-Pace looks stunning 
Not sure the Tesla 3 is large enough in the rear for my needs
Do have roof bars and 4 bike carriers (Thule) on the Volvo which I'd need to transfer to any new car - shouldn't be an issue

I'd welcome any thoughts if anyone has been through a similar process and I'll keep this updated as things progress or if I do test drives etc.

:thumb:


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## andy665

I would look at the stated range of any EV and reduce by approx. 30% to get somewhere relative to what is achievable in the real world. The Audi e-Trons seem to have very poor ranges to start with and may discount itself for that reason.

Any reason why the BMW iX3 is not on your list to consider, essentially an electric version of the X3?

We have considered an Enyaq but reviews of the higher capacity model show a big difference between stated and real world range and has been pretty much discounted for that reason

I think the investigation / research you are doing will become familiar to us all over the next few years


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## MPS101

As you have the Volvo, any reason the Polestar is not a choice.


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## St Evelyn

Again on the theme of increasing the options open to you (although this may not be possible due to company policy), any reason for not showing the Polestar 2? Being a sister company to Volvo would mean that it should be a pretty familiar environment & infrastructure (for servicing & repairs). It's very well regarded / reviewed and they've just announced 2 new 2-wheel drive variants that are £6K / £9K cheaper than the original model. All 3 have a range that should be good for what you've described above as well.

Not sure whereabouts in Leicestershire you live, but Polestar have a test drive event running this coming weekend, with slots available in Nottingham (and Exeter, but guess that's a bit of a trek). Here's the link to book if it's of interest.


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## St Evelyn

MPS101 said:


> As you have the Volvo, any reason the Polestar is not a choice.


Beat me to it (and in a much more succinct way, lol). :thumb:


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## AndyN01

An interesting thread - thanks.

Personally I'd avoid Tesla like the plague. This stems from their woeful reliability - something I suspect isn't an issue with the Volvo. 

Good luck with your search.

Andy.


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## Coops

Unfortunately I don't have any control over what cars are or aren't on the list - it's all down to the lease company and what discounts they can obtain from manufacturers directly. For example, my Volvo V90 is the only one on the fleet because Volvo pulled the discount and I got in before it changed. However I do agree over the Polestar - very competitive pricing and range in line with Tesla Model 3. Should it come to it, I would challenge if it wasn't available.

Any EV would be on a 4 year lease so the reliability and longevity of the Tesla would concern me.


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## Summit Detailing

The only reason to buy a Tesla in my eyes would be the need to charge on the road regularly, which is where their charging infrastructure comes into its own.

Out of your list the i-Pace would be my pick, closely followed by the e-Niro....or wait a bit and get the new Hyundai Ioniq5.

Happy Shopping!

Cheers,

Chris


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## NeilG40

AndyN01 said:


> An interesting thread - thanks.
> 
> Personally I'd avoid Tesla like the plague. This stems from their woeful reliability - something I suspect isn't an issue with the Volvo.
> 
> Good luck with your search.
> 
> Andy.


Is this based on personal experience or hearsay?

I've no issues with mine.


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## Mikesphotaes

Summit Detailing said:


> The only reason to buy a Tesla in my eyes would be the need to charge on the road regularly, which is where their charging infrastructure comes into its own.
> 
> Out of your list the i-Pace would be my pick, closely followed by the e-Niro....or wait a bit and get the new Hyundai Ioniq5.
> 
> Happy Shopping!
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Chris


My friend's mate bought an i-pace, had to get a new one after a couple of weeks. Moving forward a couple of thousand miles and it needs a new wiring loom!


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## endoman

Have had an iPace for almost a year now. Been faultless. Bought it used at 2 years old with 2K miles, done 10K miles in it. Best car I've had.


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## SteveTDCi

Out of that list I would be taking the ipace, I just couldn’t live with the dashboard and screen in the Tesla and the fact the model 3 looks a bit like Donald Duck.


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## taz736

As someone said earlier if you can wait a few months the Nissan Ariya and Kia ev6 will be available - both look great options.
I’ve been ev only since 2013 by the way, there’s no going back!


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## AndyN01

NeilG40 said:


> Is this based on personal experience or hearsay?
> 
> I've no issues with mine.


Based on this:

https://www.which.co.uk/reviews/new-and-used-cars/article/car-reliability/most-reliable-cars-adRx52m7zuhV

And in nearly 4 decades of membership I've yet to find their car reliability results to be far off the mark.

Andy.


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## Mono749

Whatever you decide, they're all going to drastically lose miles during the wintertime.So maybe worth getting onto a few ev forums/groups to see real world figures. 
This was my 1st winter in the E-tron 50 with an advertised 190mile range, however i was seeing between 116-120miles and now starting to creep up has it gets warmer now 150-160miles (i don't think I've ever recalled seeing 190 or even 180 lol)


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## Coops

Summit Detailing said:


> The only reason to buy a Tesla in my eyes would be the need to charge on the road regularly, which is where their charging infrastructure comes into its own.
> 
> Out of your list the i-Pace would be my pick, closely followed by the e-Niro....or wait a bit and get the new Hyundai Ioniq5.
> 
> Happy Shopping!
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Chris


That's my initial view - yes it's got loads of tech but the majority of that tech I already have on my Volvo (touch screen, AutoPilot etc). I'd much rather have something which looks good and is comfortable.


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## Coops

endoman said:


> Have had an iPace for almost a year now. Been faultless. Bought it used at 2 years old with 2K miles, done 10K miles in it. Best car I've had.


Thanks - be interested to hear your views, both positive and negative. PM if necc.



SteveTDCi said:


> Out of that list I would be taking the ipace, I just couldn't live with the dashboard and screen in the Tesla and the fact the model 3 looks a bit like Donald Duck.


iPace is top of my list at the mo too Steve, closely followed by the E-Tron (although the range does concern me on that).



taz736 said:


> As someone said earlier if you can wait a few months the Nissan Ariya and Kia ev6 will be available - both look great options.
> I've been ev only since 2013 by the way, there's no going back!


I really don't know when it would be - it could be tomorrow, could be December or could be when my Volvo lease ends. The list will change though as discounts become available and the lease company updates things so others like the Polestar could make an appearance.



Mono749 said:


> Whatever you decide, they're all going to drastically lose miles during the wintertime.So maybe worth getting onto a few ev forums/groups to see real world figures.
> This was my 1st winter in the E-tron 50 with an advertised 190mile range, however i was seeing between 116-120miles and now starting to creep up has it gets warmer now 150-160miles (i don't think I've ever recalled seeing 190 or even 180 lol)


Hmm that is an issue isn't it. I do like the look of the E-Tron and it's build quality will be good, but everything I read references the poor range.



AndyN01 said:


> Based on this:
> 
> https://www.which.co.uk/reviews/new-and-used-cars/article/car-reliability/most-reliable-cars-adRx52m7zuhV
> 
> And in over 3 decades of membership I've yet to find their car reliability results to be far off the mark.
> 
> Andy.


Thanks I'll take a read of that at some point.


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## Andyblue

Interesting thread :thumb: 

Something that we’ll be considering next year, so keeping an eye on the thread re thoughts etc :thumb:


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## Summit Detailing

Ioniq5 first drive from Jonny here -





This is what I'd buy if I wanted an EV:driver:

Cheers,

Chris


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## cangri

With the money for a Tesla you can buy around 4 Dacia Spring and keep them spread around the work area and transfer from 1 car to another, while the non driving one stay at charge


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## shl-kelso

The newer models from Hyundai and Kia should have much better charging curves, so potentially much faster rapid charging potential compared to the Kona/e-Niro, so if time is on your side I’d be waiting until you could get a closer look at either of these. They generally have better efficiency than many other EV offerings too, so range will be potentially better than many similarly sized options such as the Audi and Merc models.


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## Coops

Summit Detailing said:


> Ioniq5 first drive from Jonny here -
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is what I'd buy if I wanted an EV:driver:
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Chris


Saw that on Twitter and watched. Very impressive EV. Nice design and good layout. Don't know pricing at this stage.

COuldn't see what the rear legroom was like. Was almost as if they couldn't show too many close up shots as it was a pre-production vehicle.


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## Rappy

Coops said:


> Saw that on Twitter and watched. Very impressive EV. Nice design and good layout. Don't know pricing at this stage.
> 
> COuldn't see what the rear legroom was like. Was almost as if they couldn't show too many close up shots as it was a pre-production vehicle.


Agreed, looked fantastic as an EV option.

I think the rear seats were powered & with the 30% reduction on front seat backs should be ample :thumb:

If I closed my eyes and squinted. I could see a very slight likeness to a Lancia Delta Integrale


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## Coops

Rappy said:


> Agreed, looked fantastic as an EV option.
> 
> I think the rear seats were powered & with the 30% reduction on front seat backs should be ample :thumb:
> 
> If I closed my eyes and squinted. I could see a very slight likeness to a Lancia Delta Integrale


Definite modern day Integrale, yes.

Liked the way those rear seats moved.


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## Rappy

Coops said:


> Definite modern day Integrale, yes.
> 
> Liked the way those rear seats moved.


Yes, I like a lot :thumb:

A longer wheel base than a Range Rover. Loads of cabin space.

A little miffed at the solar roof only for the 1st edition cars :wall:


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## ridders66

I'll throw something interesting into the mix. my bosses have four electric vehicles in the company, two Tesla Model X and two Porsche Taycan turbo S. One thing which became apparent when they just had the Teslas, one was on charge at one of the boss's house, he closed his garage door, the electric heaters switched on when the garage door closed, and shortly after his electric tripped out. It was asking too much to be able to charge the car and heat the garage. This is not unique, the other boss had much the same trouble, he has actually had three phase installed at his house now, as the chargers pull so much from the grid. I will add that they both have the most up to date electric systems in their houses, so it has not been added to time and again. The big concern is that, as more people make the switch, the electricity grid will not be able to cope.
Another thing which concerns me is that we are careering headlong into consigning petrol and diesel vehicles to history, but the infrastructure is nowhere near where it needs to be. What about people who live in flats? Or in a terraced house which fronts onto the pavement? How will they be able to safely charge their vehicle? Trail the charger cable across the pavement? It is coming, but we are not ready for it at all.


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## shl-kelso

ridders66 said:


> I'll throw something interesting into the mix. my bosses have four electric vehicles in the company, two Tesla Model X and two Porsche Taycan turbo S. One thing which became apparent when they just had the Teslas, one was on charge at one of the boss's house, he closed his garage door, the electric heaters switched on when the garage door closed, and shortly after his electric tripped out. It was asking too much to be able to charge the car and heat the garage. This is not unique, the other boss had much the same trouble, he has actually had three phase installed at his house now, as the chargers pull so much from the grid. I will add that they both have the most up to date electric systems in their houses, so it has not been added to time and again. The big concern is that, as more people make the switch, the electricity grid will not be able to cope.
> Another thing which concerns me is that we are careering headlong into consigning petrol and diesel vehicles to history, but the infrastructure is nowhere near where it needs to be. What about people who live in flats? Or in a terraced house which fronts onto the pavement? How will they be able to safely charge their vehicle? Trail the charger cable across the pavement? It is coming, but we are not ready for it at all.


Sounds like they did not do their due diligence i. that case. The first thing any electrician should do before adding a large load such as an EV charger is to do a load calculation to ensure the existing supply to which the EV charger is to be added is capable of taking the load.

For example, I have a 4 bed house with detached double garage, which is all-electric - ground source heat pump for heating and hot water, plus electric cooking etc. My incoming supply is 100A single phase, and when I have my first EV there was no issue adding a 32A charger as the load calculation (including allowed diversity) was within the 100A supply capacity. We then bought a second EV, and wanted a second 32A charger. This would have overloaded my supply if all loads were running at maximum, so my local DNO (the electrical company who look after the electrical distribution network) would only give permission to my installer if there was a fail-safe method to ensure the supply could not be overloaded, and i. this case I had to use a charger that included incoming supply monitoring ie a smart charger. This measure the incoming supply load and if it reaches a pre-determined level (85A in my case, as specified by the DNO) then it steps down the charge rate, or even stops completely, to ensure the supply remains below the permitted level.

In my case both chargers are in my garage, which has a 100A supply cable direct from the meter, as I knew I wanted the ability to have large electrical loads fed from the supply (my house was self-built about 15 years ago so I was fully in control of all construction decisions). The problem with most existing houses is that garages are often fed with a supply capable of 40A max, and somethings even lower. This is on for some sockets and a lighting circuit, but has no headroom for anything else.

For the install where there is electrical heating that trips the supply when the EV charger is used should never have occurred if the electrician was doing his job properly - he should have either declined to install the charger as the supply was insufficient, or insisted that the supply was upgraded to meet the increased supply. That has nothing to do with EVs specifically - it could just have easily been a hot tub added for example and had exactly the same issue.

And 3-phase upgrades are also not unusual if the house is large and there are significant new loads. My neighbour has added a couple of 1-bed holiday lodges on land adjacent to his house, with hot tubs using 3.5kW heaters, but still needed to upgrade to a 3x100A supply to cover all the requirements. He could now also add two or three 32A EV chargers without worrying about load management.

There's a lot of mid-information about how mass-adoption of EVs will overload the grid. The reality is that once we see EVs being used with vehicle-to-grid-capable charging then the grid will be more than happy with mass adoption of EVs as this gives the grid a nationwide energy store to help balance the grid. There are also interviews with spokespeople from the grid who specifically state how more EVs charging overnight on cheap-rate electricity would be a benefit as they avoid the need to drop generating capacity overnight when normal demand drops significantly just now.

We are likely to see time-of-day tariffs becoming more popular as smart metering increases. Some companies have already offered such tariffs, and while this means that users can see some very high unit rates for periods of peak demand, this contrasts with other times when the supplier rates go negative, ie the supplier actually pays you to use power! So those with large battery EVs were actually paid to charge, while also being laid for any other power they could use such as the dishwasher and washing machine. Being able to use the car battery as an energy store (like having a large home battery store) also allows load shifting, to avoid using lower at the times when it costs the most.

Imagine how many vehicles (both private and commerical) there are in country, then imagine how much storage could be made available for the national grid of the owners allows just a small percentage of their battery capacity be made available for load management when they are not being used and are plugged into their vehicle charger. Such use offers a decent income to those owners allowing their vehicles to be used this way, and requires nothing special beyond the vehicle and a compatible EV charger/smart meter. You now have a nationwide dynamic battery energy store without any major infrastructure costs or major installation works. The technology to do this is already mostly available and is already being successfully trialled right now.


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## Haze-20

I bought a Tesla Model 3 Performance in September last year. Best car I have owned. Yes there are issues with Tesla's but I have many friends who have other EV's and they all have their fair share of problems. You only hear about negative issues in the market for Tesla.

If you end up with a choice of EV's then consider the following:

1. Real world wh/mile - if you need to do lot's of miles then 250 wh per mile is the minimum you should look for. I have achieved avg 340 wh per mile since September and can get 250 now it's warming up. A long range version of any EV should get you 200 or more.

2. If like me you are not concerned about "economy" and want to enjoy driving then go for the fastest one you can get. 0-60 in approx 3 seconds doesn't get old. You will not get an amazing handling EV, physics do not allow heavy cars to handle well but test drive any you can.

3. Not sure how you will get "fuel" paid for on private mileage on an EV, especially if you are charging at home. I have a tariff from Octopus Energy that gives me 4 hours of 5p per kWh. At 200 wh per mile it would cost you 1 pence per mile in "fuel".

If you do get one then feel free to use my referral code which will give you £50 and myself £50 towards our bills. share.octopus.energy/tidy-goat-814

If you go down the Tesla route then feel free to use my referral code for 1000 free super charger miles https://www.tesla.com/referral/james98560

You cannot currently beat the Super Charger network. Hands down the second best thing about Tesla after the car.

If you have any questions let me know.


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## Coops

Haze-20 said:


> I bought a Tesla Model 3 Performance in September last year. Best car I have owned. Yes there are issues with Tesla's but I have many friends who have other EV's and they all have their fair share of problems. You only hear about negative issues in the market for Tesla.
> 
> If you end up with a choice of EV's then consider the following:
> 
> 1. Real world wh/mile - if you need to do lot's of miles then 250 wh per mile is the minimum you should look for. I have achieved avg 340 wh per mile since September and can get 250 now it's warming up. A long range version of any EV should get you 200 or more.
> 
> 2. If like me you are not concerned about "economy" and want to enjoy driving then go for the fastest one you can get. 0-60 in approx 3 seconds doesn't get old. You will not get an amazing handling EV, physics do not allow heavy cars to handle well but test drive any you can.
> 
> 3. Not sure how you will get "fuel" paid for on private mileage on an EV, especially if you are charging at home. I have a tariff from Octopus Energy that gives me 4 hours of 5p per kWh. At 200 wh per mile it would cost you 1 pence per mile in "fuel".
> 
> If you do get one then feel free to use my referral code which will give you £50 and myself £50 towards our bills. share.octopus.energy/tidy-goat-814
> 
> If you go down the Tesla route then feel free to use my referral code for 1000 free super charger miles https://www.tesla.com/referral/james98560
> 
> You cannot currently beat the Super Charger network. Hands down the second best thing about Tesla after the car.
> 
> If you have any questions let me know.


Thanks, some useful information. I've already started investigating converting the home electric tariff to an EV friendly one, my current provider does an off peak for about 4p.

The Tesla Supercharger network is a huge plus point, but there are so many good EVs from other manufacturers coming on the market that I'm starting to shift away from Tesla. Pretty much day to day I wouldn't need to recharge outside of the home, so seems pointless to jump on the Tesla wagon for the very odd occasion that i'd need the network.

As yet there is no sight of me requiring to order so the research and investigations continue. Colleagues who've replaced have started to get their EVs - mainly Tesla 3s but with the odd Merc EQC coming through now, so I'll be sure to pick their brains on daily life with an EV.


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## SteveTDCi

The only reason to buy a Tesla is because of the supercharger network.


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## bluechimp

Coops said:


> Definite modern day Integrale, yes.
> 
> Liked the way those rear seats moved.


I like this and I see what you mean, it does have an Integrale look about it.


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## muzzer

With regards to the Tesla Model 3, Harry Metcalfe did a video on his Harry's Garage Youtube channel which is quite interesting as it gives real world figures etc. 
One point i got from it was he compared the efficiency of the Model 3 to the i-Pace and the Tesla is more efficient with a smaller battery than the i-Pace.

One last thing concerning Tesla's model 3, it is by far the best selling EV in the UK currently and in December of last year was the best selling car in the UK full stop.
I do like them but i must admit, the Hyundai toniq5 does like a lovely bit of kit and i'd be very sorely tempted by one if i was in the market for an EV


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## ridders66

If one of our Tesla Model X is being used, using the heated seat, screen, steering wheel etc really hammers the range.


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## shl-kelso

ridders66 said:


> If one of our Tesla Model X is being used, using the heated seat, screen, steering wheel etc really hammers the range.


I've got a Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV, and the electric steering wheel, heated seats, and heated windscreen have little effect on electrical range with only a 12 kWh battery, so cannot see how this could have any noticeable effect on a Tesla with battery many times the size.

I will accept that climate control and cabin heating will have an impact, especially when it's a resistance heater rather than a heat pump.


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## NeilG40

No, it doesn't make sense what's been said all the items mentioned are powered by the 12 volt battery not the traction battery.


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## shl-kelso

NeilG40 said:


> No, it doesn't make sense what's been said all the items mentioned are powered by the 12 volt battery not the traction battery.


But the 12v is charged from the traction battery with BEVs and many PHEVs, so it's not completely independent, but the loads for the majority of the things listed in the post above are so small as to have no significant impact on EV range.

And there does still seem to be a large amount of misinformation and untruths about EVs being spread amongst the general population. That said, they are certainly not the answer for everyone currently - there are certain model designs that are almost entirely absent in the BEV market, an inability to charge at home can make BEV ownership difficult, and lack of towing ability can also be a major factor for some too.


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## Summit Detailing

shl-kelso said:


> That said, they are certainly not the answer for everyone currently - there are certain model designs that are almost entirely absent in the BEV market, an inability to charge at home can make BEV ownership difficult, and lack of towing ability can also be a major factor for some too.


I don't think they are the 'answer' long-term, this is just the current thinking (short sighted), in the same way there was the push for diesel about 10/12yrs ago.

Long-term synthetic fuels and hydrogen will be the solution (imo).

Cheers,

Chris


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## shl-kelso

Summit Detailing said:


> I don't think they are the 'answer' long-term, this is just the current thinking (short sighted), in the same way there was the push for diesel about 10/12yrs ago.
> 
> Long-term synthetic fuels and hydrogen will be the solution (imo).
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Chris


We'll have to agree to disagree on that one.

Hydrogen fuel cells just replace most (but not all) if the batteries in a BEV with a fuel cell generating electricity at much less efficiency than simply charging the batteries directly instead. Add expensive regular maintenance costs and H2 fuel system parts needing replacement within roughly 10 years using current designs. Then you've got the issues surrounding pressurising the fuel at the filling station (which can cause significant delays between sequential fill ups), and very expensive filling stations, and it just seems like too much effort for cars and small commercial vehicles. It does look like it could have a role in HGV and large vehicle solutions, but the issues over refuelling are still the same, but also tackles the problems of simply adding huge/heavy battery packs to already heavy vehicles. Having to reduce load sizes to meet max weight regulations is not going to go down well with hauliers (and with a family-owned haulage business on my wife's side I can see exactly what impact that could have).

Synthetic fuels may also become more common, but does little to tackle the problems of burning fuel in an ICE, other than replace oil extraction/refining with a different industrial process which may be just as energy intensive but perhaps without the same overall ecological impact.

It's a tough problem to tackle, and will need some big moves soon if the targets to replace petrol and diesel vehicles from the road is to be hit.


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## ridders66

shl-kelso said:


> I've got a Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV, and the electric steering wheel, heated seats, and heated windscreen have little effect on electrical range with only a 12 kWh battery, so cannot see how this could have any noticeable effect on a Tesla with battery many times the size.
> 
> I will accept that climate control and cabin heating will have an impact, especially when it's a resistance heater rather than a heat pump.


One of the directors switched the heated ancillaries off during the cold weather when driving to work. ten minutes into the journey with the heating on, it had knocked 40 miles off the range. The heated steering wheel knocked another 10 miles off.
remember, the vehicle is electric, so anything used on the car will take energy out of the batteries.


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## bluechimp

shl-kelso said:


> We'll have to agree to disagree on that one.
> 
> Hydrogen fuel cells just replace most (but not all) if the batteries in a BEV with a fuel cell generating electricity at much less efficiency than simply charging the batteries directly instead. Add expensive regular maintenance costs and H2 fuel system parts needing replacement within roughly 10 years using current designs. Then you've got the issues surrounding pressurising the fuel at the filling station (which can cause significant delays between sequential fill ups), and very expensive filling stations, and it just seems like too much effort for cars and small commercial vehicles. It does look like it could have a role in HGV and large vehicle solutions, but the issues over refuelling are still the same, but also tackles the problems of simply adding huge/heavy battery packs to already heavy vehicles. Having to reduce load sizes to meet max weight regulations is not going to go down well with hauliers (and with a family-owned haulage business on my wife's side I can see exactly what impact that could have).
> 
> Synthetic fuels may also become more common, but does little to tackle the problems of burning fuel in an ICE, other than replace oil extraction/refining with a different industrial process which may be just as energy intensive but perhaps without the same overall ecological impact.
> 
> It's a tough problem to tackle, and will need some big moves soon if the targets to replace petrol and diesel vehicles from the road is to be hit.


I think you summed it up nicely at the end there, it is going to be tough, people want progression, rather than regression.

Do the current Teslas etc have Energy Recovery Systems through braking etc?


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## shl-kelso

ridders66 said:


> One of the directors switched the heated ancillaries off during the cold weather when driving to work. ten minutes into the journey with the heating on, it had knocked 40 miles off the range. The heated steering wheel knocked another 10 miles off.
> remember, the vehicle is electric, so anything used on the car will take energy out of the batteries.


Well if the Tesla driver is relying on the mileage quoted on the GOM (most EV drivers quickly realise this is the Guess'ometer as it is rarely accurate in all cases), then this adjusts for range based on driving style as much as anything else - drive up a hill and the range apparently drops like a stone, similarly drive at high speed and it falls dramatically. It's simply an estimate of range based on how the car is being driven at that time, along with any large electrical loads that may be switched on or off.

To give you a better idea of how little the electric seat heating and steering heating affect overall range, if I switch on all the heated seats and steering wheel in my Mitsubishi Outlander plug-in hybrid then the range on the GOM may drop by a single mile, but often it stays exactly the same. The electric heating elements are quite a low load, and they are thermostatically controlled so switch on and off once warmed up (and they warm up in around 60 seconds or less). If you can be bothered you can often find a screen readout of power draw, and you can see exactly how much power is used by these loads, and it will be very little. What does eat power are the electric resistance heaters that heat the cabin in cars that do not use more efficient heat pumps. These are often several kW loads, so will make a measurable difference to energy consumption. In a very large batter BEV it's not a massive issue if you are starting out with a full charge, but in a small battery BEV (my Outlander has a little over 10kWh of usable battery power, and my first BEV, a Nissan Leaf, had 20kWh usable) this will impact range in cold weather.

Over the last 5 years I've owned three BEVs, the 24kWh Nissan Leaf, a 30kWh Kia Soul EV, and now a Kia e-Niro 64kWh. I also have had a 2.4l/12.6kWh Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV for the last three years too, so I've built up a fair amount of experience driving both small and large battery EVs.


----------



## Soul boy 68

When tackling the issue of sustainability, to only consider how we fuel cars is ignoring half the problem, as it is the reduction of carbon emissions at all levels that’s the objective. The reality is that a clean, new battery powered car has already produced a few tons of CO2 in the manufacturing process, something that’s especially true of electric cars and their resource heavy batteries. All IMHO of course.


----------



## Summit Detailing

shl-kelso said:


> It's a tough problem to tackle, and will need some big moves soon if the targets to replace petrol and diesel vehicles from the road is to be hit.


It'll be very interesting to look back at this thread in 10yrs time and see where we are, compared to what we we predict now in 2021.

Cheers.


----------



## shl-kelso

bluechimp said:


> I think you summed it up nicely at the end there, it is going to be tough, people want progression, rather than regression.
> 
> Do the current Teslas etc have Energy Recovery Systems through braking etc?


Yes, all Teslas have regenerative braking, just like all EVs.


----------



## D3KCA

I have the Audi ETron 55 launch edition. Owned from new. Best ev I have driving for build quality apart from the mirrors which are known to be a problem. We have a zappi charger on the house which monitors load and we are currently in the process of getting another fitted as also have a nissan leaf 40kwh.


----------



## Coops

D3KCA said:


> I have the Audi ETron 55 launch edition. Owned from new. Best ev I have driving for build quality apart from the mirrors which are known to be a problem. We have a zappi charger on the house which monitors load and we are currently in the process of getting another fitted as also have a nissan leaf 40kwh.


Be keen to get your thoughts on it if poss, happy if you DM me.


----------



## Coops

We've had a few emails from Procurement over the past couple of weeks. Firstly, asking whether we can switch to EV - it was a YES/NO/MAYBE option. Then yesterday it was a YES/NO to a switch in Q1 2022. They are clearly trying to whittle down the field and see exactly what the costs are likely to be.

Drove the MD's Merc EQC yesterday, my initial thoughts on it:

Good seating position and comfortable
No regenerative braking (not sure whether this model has it or not)
Performance - great - well they all are, aren't they?
Good legroom in the back
Not a flat floor in rear - still has the tranmission tunnel in place
Boot is crap! (Well anything will be compared to my V90)
Looks good outside
Didn't play with any of the tech but the interior is a bit blingy

I'm still leaning towards the Jaguar I-Pace - it's the SE specification I would have so a decent amount of kit available.


----------



## D3KCA

Coops said:


> Be keen to get your thoughts on it if poss, happy if you DM me.


Sure what would you like to know?


----------



## Coops

D3KCA said:


> Sure what would you like to know?


Thanks.

Range, equipment, driving style etc, general thoughts.


----------



## Coops

Further email from Procurement team today suggesting that if a solution could be found to put (me) us in an electric vehicle within the next 3 months would (i) we be interested.

Things are definitely moving and it's a case of freeing up the budget to replace the fleet (with early termination charges). There was talk of an order in September for January delivery but perhaps the goal posts have moved again.


----------



## Rayaan

We've got a new UX300e. It won't be suitable for you due to the range but we've been getting bang on what it's claiming at around 180-200 miles dependent on driving style.


----------



## shl-kelso

The difficulty in comparing EVs just now is that some (like the iPace) are designed from the ground up as an EV, rather than being converted from an existing ICE platform. So with the ability to repackage the layout for an EV-only design you tend to get much better room in the passenger compartment for the size of the vehicle, with a flat floor and minimal front bonnet area). But you also still have a limited choice of models, and estate variants are very few and far between just now. 

However you also have to decide to make the change at some point, knowing that there is always going to be a better model choice or technology/build improvements at each new generation launch if you wait a bi longer.


----------



## Coops

shl-kelso said:


> The difficulty in comparing EVs just now is that some (like the iPace) are designed from the ground up as an EV, rather than being converted from an existing ICE platform. So with the ability to repackage the layout for an EV-only design you tend to get much better room in the passenger compartment for the size of the vehicle, with a flat floor and minimal front bonnet area). But you also still have a limited choice of models, and estate variants are very few and far between just now.
> 
> However you also have to decide to make the change at some point, knowing that there is always going to be a better model choice or technology/build improvements at each new generation launch if you wait a bi longer.


Totally agree - just the simple comparison of the Merc EQC vs Jaguar IPace is just that. Merc adapted the GLC for electric and you can tell. Transmission tunnel still in place!


----------



## D3KCA

Coops said:


> Thanks.
> 
> Range, equipment, driving style etc, general thoughts.


Evening
Sorry for the late response.

So we have owned the car since new. It is a 55 etron launch edition. Spec wise it is a standard launch edition. It has the video mirrors which a cool but not really needed.

Range
we have drove it through winter and the range dropped from 190-200 to 150-160. We have a nissan leaf also 40kwh version and the e tron out performs it by a mile which you would expect. The leaf on the motorway the range drops like a stone. My next door neighbour has an etron 50 and his range in winter was at 120-130 and he was still driving to leeds for business meetings. Summing range up the car is capable of every journey you would need to do. The charging rate is excellent 150kw on the 55 but only 110 on the 50 i think.

Only thing about the driving I think is that it is a heavy car to drive. The merc felt lighter but then it was a lot smaller. The seats for me are not as good as the merc but i felt a little squished together like racing seats in the merc.

Would I buy another one?
Overall answer would be yes. My wife loves the car, its big, safe and even on a cold day the range is good.

My answer would also be a yes. Even considering fitting a tow bar to the current one so we can tow a 6 berth caravan as I am confident of the charging capabilities of the car.


----------



## andy665

Puzzles me how Audi are putting EVs on sale with such poor real world ranges, especially when you factor in the not inconsiderable asking price


----------



## Coops

D3KCA said:


> Evening
> Sorry for the late response.
> 
> So we have owned the car since new. It is a 55 etron launch edition. Spec wise it is a standard launch edition. It has the video mirrors which a cool but not really needed.
> 
> Range
> we have drove it through winter and the range dropped from 190-200 to 150-160. We have a nissan leaf also 40kwh version and the e tron out performs it by a mile which you would expect. The leaf on the motorway the range drops like a stone. My next door neighbour has an etron 50 and his range in winter was at 120-130 and he was still driving to leeds for business meetings. Summing range up the car is capable of every journey you would need to do. The charging rate is excellent 150kw on the 55 but only 110 on the 50 i think.
> 
> Only thing about the driving I think is that it is a heavy car to drive. The merc felt lighter but then it was a lot smaller. The seats for me are not as good as the merc but i felt a little squished together like racing seats in the merc.
> 
> Would I buy another one?
> Overall answer would be yes. My wife loves the car, its big, safe and even on a cold day the range is good.
> 
> My answer would also be a yes. Even considering fitting a tow bar to the current one so we can tow a 6 berth caravan as I am confident of the charging capabilities of the car.


Thanks for the information. Range isn't great but if it works for you, that's fine.


----------



## Coops

andy665 said:


> Puzzles me how Audi are putting EVs on sale with such poor real world ranges, especially when you factor in the not inconsiderable asking price


Yep they're £60k plus, and they weigh about 200-400 kgs more than the I Pace, that must be impacting on the range considering the I Pace battery is larger at 90 kWh.


----------



## Coops

Some progress this week, just sorting the final details with Procurement but I think I'll be giving up my Volvo in July (passing to another employee), transferring to an interim hire car and placing an order for an EV. (Fingers crossed).

The list is being updated and they are intending putting the Polestar 2 on which makes my decision a bit harder.

I've already discounted the Tesla 3 and S. 
The Audi doesn't appear to have a very good range (although a very nice car)
Merc albeit it nice, doesn't appeal to me

So I've been concentrating efforts on the I-Pace, but I would also favour the Polestar 2 if available.


----------



## Soul boy 68

Coops said:


> Some progress this week, just sorting the final details with Procurement but I think I'll be giving up my Volvo in July (passing to another employee), transferring to an interim hire car and placing an order for an EV. (Fingers crossed).
> 
> The list is being updated and they are intending putting the Polestar 2 on which makes my decision a bit harder.
> 
> I've already discounted the Tesla 3 and S.
> The Audi doesn't appear to have a very good range (although a very nice car)
> Merc albeit it nice, doesn't appeal to me
> 
> So I've been concentrating efforts on the I-Pace, but I would also favour the Polestar 2 if available.


If you haven't already, check out Harry's garage on You Tube, he did a review of the I pace.


----------



## Coops

Soul boy 68 said:


> If you haven't already, check out Harry's garage on You Tube, he did a review of the I pace.


Watched many of his videos - very good and very honest.

Also watched some of the Carwow ones as they did a full to empty test on pretty much the choices i have.


----------



## Soul boy 68

Coops said:


> Watched many of his videos - very good and very honest.
> 
> Also watched some of the Carwow ones as they did a full to empty test on pretty much the choices i have.


Which if any of the videos influenced your decision?


----------



## Coops

Soul boy 68 said:


> Which if any of the videos influenced your decision?


None really if I'm honest. Been following EVs for a while now and reading reviews helped me make my mind up.

The Electrifying.com videos are also very good. I tend to watch some of the more unbiased ones, hence why I like Harry's ones. His I Pace and Tesla ones were particularly honest.

Genuinely think we are on the cusp with EVs and Gridserve taking over Ecotricity, and making more investments in the charging network is only going to improve things. Maybe I'm about 12 months too early but I can't turn down the opportunity to get a significant reduction in my BIK which translates to nearly over £5k in my pocket.


----------



## 121DOM

Out of interest what are real mileage reductions now the weather is warm / hot and have the aircon on? 
We don’t own electric yet as the honest (french !!??) salespeople for several brand we have spoken to said 50% - 60% reduction in range. I can probably believe them as 99% of EV’s you see have all the windows down and some very hot and uncomfortable looking occupants .


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## GeeWhizRS

I wouldn't worry too much about the drop in range with using the air con. If the air con isn't on you'd usually have the heater on and both will cause a drain. After a couple of years with my EV the thing I can tell you that kills the range is the speed you travel at. In my i3S if I'm tooling around on A roads, say up to 60mph (and not hanging around) I'll see around 150-160 miles. If I do 70-75mph on the motorway I'll see that drop to around 110 miles. If I go at 100mph that drops to about 60 miles. It does me fine though. Most of my trips are within an 80 mile round trip so I tend to go there carefully and return with my foot down.


----------



## Coops

GeeWhizRS said:


> I wouldn't worry too much about the drop in range with using the air con. If the air con isn't on you'd usually have the heater on and both will cause a drain. After a couple of years with my EV the thing I can tell you that kills the range is the speed you travel at. In my i3S if I'm tooling around on A roads, say up to 60mph (and not hanging around) I'll see around 150-160 miles. If I do 70-75mph on the motorway I'll see that drop to around 110 miles. If I go at 100mph that drops to about 60 miles. It does me fine though. Most of my trips are within an 80 mile round trip so I tend to go there carefully and return with my foot down.


How much of this range depletion is down to regen braking? I've read a number of reports and insights from owners which suggests that range is improved by driving A/B roads rather than motorways.

I guess the constant on/off of the throttle coupled with braking will provide some regen of the batteries which you wouldn't get cruising on motorways.

In fact one of Harry's videos suggests as much on the i-Pace in that it doesn't really like motorways.


----------



## andy665

GeeWhizRS said:


> I wouldn't worry too much about the drop in range with using the air con. If the air con isn't on you'd usually have the heater on and both will cause a drain. After a couple of years with my EV the thing I can tell you that kills the range is the speed you travel at. In my i3S if I'm tooling around on A roads, say up to 60mph (and not hanging around) I'll see around 150-160 miles. If I do 70-75mph on the motorway I'll see that drop to around 110 miles. If I go at 100mph that drops to about 60 miles. It does me fine though. Most of my trips are within an 80 mile round trip so I tend to go there carefully and return with my foot down.


I think this sums up my frustration and lack of buy in to EV, in my ICE cars i don't need to think, no need to plan, no need to drive carefully, I just get in and go, if I need fuel, I pull in and refuel and on my way in 5 mins


----------



## Darlofan

GeeWhizRS said:


> I wouldn't worry too much about the drop in range with using the air con. If the air con isn't on you'd usually have the heater on and both will cause a drain. After a couple of years with my EV the thing I can tell you that kills the range is the speed you travel at. In my i3S if I'm tooling around on A roads, say up to 60mph (and not hanging around) I'll see around 150-160 miles. If I do 70-75mph on the motorway I'll see that drop to around 110 miles. If I go at 100mph that drops to about 60 miles. It does me fine though. Most of my trips are within an 80 mile round trip so I tend to go there carefully and return with my foot down.


Curious as to what happens if you run out of charge whilst out. Can the RAC etc charge it a bit to get you going or is it just recovered home?


----------



## Andyblue

GeeWhizRS said:


> I wouldn't worry too much about the drop in range with using the air con. If the air con isn't on you'd usually have the heater on and both will cause a drain. After a couple of years with my EV the thing I can tell you that kills the range is the speed you travel at. In my i3S if I'm tooling around on A roads, say up to 60mph (and not hanging around) I'll see around 150-160 miles. If I do 70-75mph on the motorway I'll see that drop to around 110 miles. If I go at 100mph that drops to about 60 miles. It does me fine though. Most of my trips are within an 80 mile round trip so I tend to go there carefully and return with my foot down.


That's a great insight and backs up what my mate at work is finding, you hit the motorway and the range just tumbles…


----------



## Soul boy 68

andy665 said:


> I think this sums up my frustration and lack of buy in to EV, in my ICE cars i don't need to think, no need to plan, no need to drive carefully, I just get in and go, if I need fuel, I pull in and refuel and on my way in 5 mins


Exactly my main reason why EV's are not floating my boat, what a ball ache to have to plan everything on the road like some military exercise and the need to have apps on your phone so you need to find the nearest charger and when you do find one you could be faced with a long wait as the charging stations are all taken up.


----------



## GeeWhizRS

Coops said:


> How much of this range depletion is down to regen braking? I've read a number of reports and insights from owners which suggests that range is improved by driving A/B roads rather than motorways.
> I guess the constant on/off of the throttle coupled with braking will provide some regen of the batteries which you wouldn't get cruising on motorways.


I've no idea how much charge regenerative braking puts in but it must have an effect; I would guess it's only small though. I've always put the drop in range at speed down to wind drag.



Darlofan said:


> Curious as to what happens if you run out of charge whilst out. Can the RAC etc charge it a bit to get you going or is it just recovered home?


I'd call BMW assist - they'd stick it on a flatbed and take it to the nearest charge point.


----------



## Rayaan

121DOM said:


> Out of interest what are real mileage reductions now the weather is warm / hot and have the aircon on?
> We don't own electric yet as the honest (french !!??) salespeople for several brand we have spoken to said 50% - 60% reduction in range. I can probably believe them as 99% of EV's you see have all the windows down and some very hot and uncomfortable looking occupants .
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


We have a UX300e. It's only been used for mainly town driving but we get a consistent 170 miles regardless of AC being on. When off the range does go up to 196 miles but it's not enough to worry about to be honest. You can easily run them down to 1 mile range and still have some juice left over

The car was showing around 157 miles (not fully charged) and I did 40 miles. The indicator went down by 37


----------



## D3KCA

So I had my first experience of range reduction further with the addition of roof bars and bikes. Still managed to get to centr parcs and back with a free top up from the parcs. All in all yes the etron range is not great but the build quality and charging speed for me made me want it.


----------



## 121DOM

https://www.ai-ways.eu/en/u5/

Anybody know anything about these ? Popped up in and advert during the MotoGP at the weekend

The interior of the U6 is certainly different

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Coops

In a Tesla 3 Performance for a couple of days, colleague has his brand new one delivered and it developed a motor fault the next day. So Tesla have given him this replacement and as it has free supercharging I've borrowed it.

What's it like? It's ok. That's it, nothing really special to say. Seats are awful compared to my Volvo ones. I think they're leather seats but it's bordering on the side of plastic / vinyl.

Rest of the car is just a bit "meh". Interior is boring. Tech is ok, but not really that different to the Volvo (i don't need to change the dashboard to a fireplace nor have a sketch pad as I'm not 5!).

And if I have one more colleague say "they're fast aren't they". Yes it is, but all electric cars are quick. It's like saying I've bought a boat and it floats really well!

I pretty much knew that I didn't want a Tesla, but this has just confirmed my initial thoughts. It's not inviting to drive either, a bit soul-less. Trying to organise a back to back drive in the Jag i-Pace vs Audi e-tron which Jaguar are running.


----------



## DLGWRX02

121DOM said:


> Out of interest what are real mileage reductions now the weather is warm / hot and have the aircon on?
> We don't own electric yet as the honest (french !!??) salespeople for several brand we have spoken to said 50% - 60% reduction in range. I can probably believe them as 99% of EV's you see have all the windows down and some very hot and uncomfortable looking occupants .
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


During summer months a full charge on my 40kWh leaf will show between 150-180 miles. In the winter it can show between 110-130. I've not driven more than 60 miles in a single trip for well over a year thanks to new job and covid. So it's never been drained to see what I would actually get. If I turn the heaters a/c on I can lose 4-6miles off the total range according to the predicted range on the dashboard.


----------



## Coops

Having my boss' Merc EQC for a week when I come back from holidays.

Be a good real world test. He's getting 210 mile range from it.


----------



## Soul boy 68

I’ll always maintain my view that EV won’t be to everyone’s mobility needs, I believe hydrogen and bio fuels will be other alternatives on offer.


----------



## Coops

Soul boy 68 said:


> I'll always maintain my view that EV won't be to everyone's mobility needs, I believe hydrogen and bio fuels will be other alternatives on offer.


Yes, I agree. It'll work for some people but not for others. Ultimately I can see the UK going to a mix of fuels - EV, hydrogen etc in the same way we have petrol and diesel now.


----------



## cangri

Coops said:


> Yes, I agree. It'll work for some people but not for others. Ultimately I can see the UK going to a mix of fuels - EV, hydrogen etc in the same way we have petrol and diesel now.


To bad not many companies invest in Hydrogen solution.

Electricity is good, but just shifts to where pollution is created. From city to outside city where electricity is produced and batteries.


----------



## shl-kelso

cangri said:


> To bad not many companies invest in Hydrogen solution.
> 
> Electricity is good, but just shifts to where pollution is created. From city to outside city where electricity is produced and batteries.


Hydrogen production/transport/delivery is many times more energy intensive than just delivering electricity into batteries, and most of that process uses the same electricity that would otherwise be used to charge batteries too. Even if the electricity used all came from renewables you could still use it to drive many times more miles for the generated output using batteries compared to using energy to created the H2 for fuel cells. So for small vehicles it makes little or no sense.

Where H2 should have a major role in future is in large vehicle power - HGVs, trains, ships etc, where battery size/cost and charging infrastructure requirements (to provide suitable rapid charging hubs) make it difficult to use battery-only EV technology. But it's also chicken and egg - vehicle manufacturers cannot provide these vehicles until there is a nationwide fuelling infrastructure that can be used by potential customers, and a whole new level of fuel handling, maintenance training/expertise is needed across the entire industry too.


----------



## muzzer

I dont even want to think about where the nearest hydrogen filling station is, used to be one in London but i think its gone.

I've already made the switch to a more environmentally friendly commute.


Yep, i walk to work :lol:


----------



## Coops

Done about 50 miles in the EQC.

Nice to drive, smooth, comfortable. Its a big car though but deceptively small on the inside by comparison.


----------



## Rappy

Coops said:


> Done about 50 miles in the EQC.
> 
> Nice to drive, smooth, comfortable. Its a big car though but deceptively small on the inside by comparison.


Yes, they are not very big inside.

A few years ago, we were looking at a GLC & this was tiny. Smaller boot than a Golf. Ended up with an Audi Q5.


----------



## Coops

On Friday, I took the EQC to the new Moto Rugby Services to top up the charge ready for the weekend. I was there approx 40 mins and it filled up the battery with 41.36 kwh and cost me £12.41. Ordinarily I wouldn't be doing this but without a car point at home for this demo it was my only alternative. That set me right for the weekend with approx 220 mile range.

My mileage over the weekend was as follows:

20 miles: Rugby to home
40 miles: general running about and shopping
36 miles: visit to friends in Ilkeston (and return)
46 miles: Monday commute

Landed at my site this morning with approx 50 miles remaining so I lost approx 28 miles from the range. That is probably due to some over exuberant driving!?

It's on charge at work at the minute (only 7 Kwh charger though) but will perhaps only get about 50% increase.

So what have I learnt:


It's comfortable - big, solid cruiser.
It's heavy - weighs about 3 tonne and at times you can feel it
Quiet - immensely so at low speed
Boot space is ok - but i am comparing it a Volvo V90 and 5 Series Touring which are huge by comparison
Rear legroom - again it's ok, I can sit behind myself (!) without a problem and that's fine for medium journeys
Range is fine for me - whilst it's not my first choice EV this demo has proved that I could easily live the range of the EQC

Got another couple of days with it before I return to diesel power.


----------



## GeeWhizRS

Coops said:


> ..... filled up the battery with 41.36 kwh and cost me £12.41.


When/if you get sorted out with one, have a look at the Octopus Energy Go Tariff. It's 5p per kw between 12:30 and 04:30 so the above fill up will likely cost about £2. :thumb:


----------



## Andyblue

Coops said:


> cost me £12.41 - with approx 220 mile range.
> 
> My mileage over the weekend was as follows:
> 
> 20 miles: Rugby to home
> 40 miles: general running about and shopping
> 36 miles: visit to friends in Ilkeston (and return)
> 46 miles: Monday commute
> 
> Landed at my site this morning with approx 50 miles remaining so I lost approx 28 miles from the range.
> .


That's interesting and thanks for the figures.

Obviously there's a surcharge for 'filling' at the service station and as GW says, would be much cheaper at home..,

So, if my maths are correct and converting this to old money 

You did (inc 50 mile range left) - 192 mile
It cost you £12.41

Diesel is around £1.29 L, so £5.80 a gallon

£12.41 (that you put in, in electric) in fuel would equal 2.14 gallon

Therefore you got 89.7 mpg in old money

For a big, weighty beast that it is, I'd say that's pretty good :thumb:


----------



## Coops

GeeWhizRS said:


> When/if you get sorted out with one, have a look at the Octopus Energy Go Tariff. It's 5p per kw between 12:30 and 04:30 so the above fill up will likely cost about £2. :thumb:


Yep that's the plan, already started looking around :thumb: My current provider (EDF) do a similar tariff but i need to get a smart meter fitted to enable it.


----------



## Coops

Andyblue said:


> That's interesting and thanks for the figures.
> 
> Obviously there's a surcharge for 'filling' at the service station and as GW says, would be much cheaper at home..,
> 
> So, if my maths are correct and converting this to old money
> 
> You did (inc 50 mile range left) - 192 mile
> It cost you £12.41
> 
> Diesel is around £1.29 L, so £5.80 a gallon
> 
> £12.41 (that you put in, in electric) in fuel would equal 2.14 gallon
> 
> Therefore you got 89.7 mpg in old money
> 
> For a big, weighty beast that it is, I'd say that's pretty good :thumb:


I'll take that, although I'd probably exclude the 50 mile range remaining, but still 66 mpg.

30p per kwh at Gridserve sites but you get the luxury of upto 350kw charge speeds. The Merc EQC will take up to 110kw. My standard home tariff is around 15-16p per kwh and a dedicated EV home tariff who'd get around 5-6p per kwh (off peak for EV charging).


----------



## Soul boy 68

Coops said:


> On Friday, I took the EQC to the new Moto Rugby Services to top up the charge ready for the weekend. I was there approx 40 mins and it filled up the battery with 41.36 kwh and cost me £12.41. Ordinarily I wouldn't be doing this but without a car point at home for this demo it was my only alternative. That set me right for the weekend with approx 220 mile range.
> 
> My mileage over the weekend was as follows:
> 
> 20 miles: Rugby to home
> 40 miles: general running about and shopping
> 36 miles: visit to friends in Ilkeston (and return)
> 46 miles: Monday commute
> 
> Landed at my site this morning with approx 50 miles remaining so I lost approx 28 miles from the range. That is probably due to some over exuberant driving!?
> 
> It's on charge at work at the minute (only 7 Kwh charger though) but will perhaps only get about 50% increase.
> 
> So what have I learnt:
> 
> 
> It's comfortable - big, solid cruiser.
> It's heavy - weighs about 3 tonne and at times you can feel it
> Quiet - immensely so at low speed
> Boot space is ok - but i am comparing it a Volvo V90 and 5 Series Touring which are huge by comparison
> Rear legroom - again it's ok, I can sit behind myself (!) without a problem and that's fine for medium journeys
> Range is fine for me - whilst it's not my first choice EV this demo has proved that I could easily live the range of the EQC
> 
> Got another couple of days with it before I return to diesel power.


Sounds like a plan carried out with military precision :lol: too much of a ball ache for me and is this the way people will need to do to get around? The future of mobility on a social and business course? I just want to turn up at a power point and be fully charged in 10 minutes or less. That's 40 minutes of your life You'll never get back :lol:


----------



## GeeWhizRS

I've had my EV coming up 2 years and never had to charge anywhere else but at home, which is seconds of a job. Not queuing up at a petrol station to get fuel and then to pay has been a time-saver for me; and then when you consider the cost of the fuel saving it's a no brainer. If you were someone that needed to drive long distances up/down the motorways often then you would need to consider your options carefully as an EV is unlikely to be for you (at present), but I'm pretty sure it won't be long before batteries can accept a charge in 10 minutes that'll get you up to 80% battery charge. Sure the infrastructure will need to catch up but I think it'll all start happening when the demand starts to increase.
If you haven't driven an EV, try one, I think the majority of people would want one within minutes. :thumb:


----------



## shl-kelso

Soul boy 68 said:


> Sounds like a plan carried out with military precision :lol: too much of a ball ache for me and is this the way people will need to do to get around? The future of mobility on a social and business course? I just want to turn up at a power point and be fully charged in 10 minutes or less. That's 40 minutes of your life You'll never get back :lol:


When you have a home charger then most of the time you never think about the charging aspect - it takes a few 10s of seconds to open the charge flap and plug in, and a similar time to unplug when you come back to the car to drive it again.

If you have no hone charger then you have to rely on public charging, likewise if you are driving beyond the sensible range of the EV. On a longer journey you can often use a rapid at a rest stop, some of which may be longer than others (if you are stopping to eat rather than just a comfort break), and don't necessarily need to aim to add a massive charge at each stop.

But the launch of more 800v EVs along with more high power rapid chargers does mean you can add significant range in very much shorter time periods compared to the majority of today's models.


----------



## Coops

Soul boy 68 said:


> Sounds like a plan carried out with military precision :lol: too much of a ball ache for me and is this the way people will need to do to get around? The future of mobility on a social and business course? I just want to turn up at a power point and be fully charged in 10 minutes or less. That's 40 minutes of your life You'll never get back :lol:


Maybe a slight ball ache on this occasion but as this is just a demo for me it doesn't reflect what real life will be. That'll be charging at home :thumb:

40 minutes lost? Nope, I was on a work conference call which I'd have normally done at my desk! So no time lost in reality.


----------



## Soul boy 68

Coops said:


> Maybe a slight ball ache on this occasion but as this is just a demo for me it doesn't reflect what real life will be. That'll be charging at home :thumb:
> 
> 40 minutes lost? Nope, I was on a work conference call which I'd have normally done at my desk! So no time lost in reality.


I'm sure that eventually we can turn up and charge at a quick rate then it can be a viable alternative for me. I think there will be alternatives like hydrogen and bio fuels also.


----------



## Coops

Soul boy 68 said:


> I'm sure that eventually we can turn up and charge at a quick rate then it can be a viable alternative for me. I think there will be alternatives like hydrogen and bio fuels also.


I agree, EVs aren't for everyone but I also think that over the coming years the technology for rapid charging will significantly improve to support longer distance travel.


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## shl-kelso

I’ve just seen some real-world figures for the new Ioniq 5 charging from low state-of-charge at a 350kW rapid, and it’s shows how an 800v battery design improves the charging curve/reduces time. It took under 9 mins to charge from 14% to 50% (charging over 200kW, under 12 mins to reach 60% (tapering down to 177kW), under 15 mins to 70% (now at 155kW), and under 20 mins to 80% (and still at 111kW). Charge speed did taper down very quickly (relatively speaking) as the state of charge went above 85%, but that is true of all EVs, and charging from 80% to 100% on a rapid typical takes as long (if not longer) as it did to get from low to 80%. 

My Kia e-Niro, as a comparison, would have started out at 77kW max at 15% state of charge, and dropped to 36kW as it reached 80%, and would have taken at least 45 mins.

Now 350kW chargers are still fairly rare, as are EVs with 800v batteries, but with Kia and Hyundai launching their first models with this capability this year it’s a big step forward in EV rapid charge capability.


----------



## Andy from Sandy

In the past the faster the charge the shorter the battery life or the quicker the maximum capacity of the cells starts to drop off thus not holding what was its full charge.

I did see a video the other day of a Tesla owner carrying a Honda suitcase generator.


----------



## bidderman1969

hope you don't get a power cut in the night, especially if you really need the car next day, weather we've been having recently, does make you wonder....


----------



## shl-kelso

Andy from Sandy said:


> In the past the faster the charge the shorter the battery life or the quicker the maximum capacity of the cells starts to drop off thus not holding what was its full charge.
> 
> I did see a video the other day of a Tesla owner carrying a Honda suitcase generator.


That was not the experiences of taxi companies - there was a company with an entire fleet of 30kWh Nissan Leafs that were only rapid chargers once or twice a day (sometimes more) and that showed no evidence of increased degradation with over 100,000 miles on most cars by the time they were replaced. At the time there was interest from Nissan techs to look more closely at some of the batteries when the fleet was replaced as there had been little real-world operation of EVs like this on which to base any real conclusions on the effects of constant rapid charging on battery health.


----------



## shl-kelso

bidderman1969 said:


> hope you don't get a power cut in the night, especially if you really need the car next day, weather we've been having recently, does make you wonder....


We live rurally so can be at the mercy of severe weather causing power cuts, but it normally takes a significant event to keep the lower off for any direction here - the Beast for the East was one such time, but then it needed JCBs to dig through the snow as the drifts were far too deep for the snow ploughs to clear, so using the car was not an option then anyway!

I've had full battery EVs as second cars for more than 5 years prior to changing my primary car to a BEV this year. For me we have reached the tipping point where there is enough rapid charging infrastructure combined with battery capacity to make it worth the perceived risk of dumping the ICE. But it will be interesting to see if my "gamble" causes me any really sticky moments in the next year or two.


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## Coops

Believe the majority of EVs utilise lithium ion batteries which do not degrade with multiple charges; one of the reasons that we are now rolling out lithium ion powered MHE in my warehouses as they can be "opportunity" charged without affecting the performance of the battery. Opportunity charging (short charges whilst drivers are on breaks etc) on typical lead acid MHE batteries would seriously impact the long term battery performance.


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## Andy from Sandy

All batteries have a finite number of charges they will take - nothing lasts forever!

Lithium is a very good technology and by the above post it appears better than I thought.

I only have experience from use in radio control models both lithium ion polymer and the lithium ion LiFePO4 cells.

A lot of articles put the life expectancy at 1000 recharges but never give figures for partial discharge partial recharge which what most talk about when fast charging to 80%.

1000 recharges with a distance of 120 miles is 120,000 miles so that is some distance that for those renting or leasing will probably never see.


----------



## shl-kelso

Andy from Sandy said:


> All batteries have a finite number of charges they will take - nothing lasts forever!
> 
> Lithium is a very good technology and by the above post it appears better than I thought.
> 
> I only have experience from use in radio control models both lithium ion polymer and the lithium ion LiFePO4 cells.
> 
> A lot of articles put the life expectancy at 1000 recharges but never give figures for partial discharge partial recharge which what most talk about when fast charging to 80%.
> 
> 1000 recharges with a distance of 120 miles is 120,000 miles so that is some distance that for those renting or leasing will probably never see.


When you've got Tesla talking about lots of small, but important, design improvements leading to the "million mile battery pack" then you can see that there has been a dramatic improvement in the last decade. There are still plenty of Gen1 Nissan Leafs on the road with batteries that are now 10 years old, and with decent amounts of degradation, but still useful for owners who only do limited miles. And with companies like Clevely EV offering pack upgrades for Leafs, so can potentially put a 40kWh or 62kWh pack into a car that originally had the 24kWh pack. It's not particularly cheap, but it is less than the figures often quoted on non-EV forums.


----------



## Andy from Sandy

Oh dear Lord! Here we go. And don't forget the treasury needs their cut. What's fair?



> However, at present there is a disparity between how much it costs to charge a car at home compared to public charging, which is more expensive.


Do these people even look at what it takes to build something, build a business and how a business needs to pay its bills?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-57963912


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## Deniance

Don’t think Evs will be affordable to everyone, I mean every kid has a car at 18 these days, come and go as you please, I think the government will have to make buses and trains for everyone because nobody will be able to afford a car, the family homes with 3 or 4 cars won’t be able to charge them all overnight, all the flats and high rise buildings won’t be able to charge them, heck even streets where you can’t park outside your door won’t be able to charge them, having a freedom car will be taken away from a lot of people, what about 2nd hand electric cars? They are useless aren’t they?
If you look at leafs on eBay, you can buy one with 100,000 miles , range has dropped to 50 miles and a new battery costs 2 grand , who the hell is gonna pay 5 bags for a 10 year old car with 100k miles?


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## Coops

Update and ordering time - I've received my login and can now go about browsing the choices. My choices are as follows:


VW ID3 - 5 door 204PS Life Pro Performance
Hyundai Kona Premium
Tesla 3 Standard Plus
Polestar 2 Long Range Single Motor Plus
VW ID4 5 door 204PS Life Pro Performance
Ford Mustang Mach E Standard Range
Audi Q4 E-Tron 40 204 S Line
Tesla 3 Long Range
Audi E Tron 50 313ps Quattro Technik
Mercedes EQC 400 Sport
Mercedes EQC 400 AMG Line

Interesting additions of the VWs, Polestar 2 and Ford. Gutted that the I-Pace has been removed but in talking to the I-Pace forum I think i've probably dodged a bullet as the new Pivi-Pro is plagued with issues.

Best go off and do some research and see where my heads at.


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## bidderman1969

I don't know why, but that list look very appealing tbh, or is it just me?


----------



## Coops

bidderman1969 said:


> I don't know why, but that list look very appealing tbh, or is it just me?


It's actually a really good mix of cars, specs and ranges.


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## bellguy

Wouldn't touch Tesla, poor paintwork, very poor fit and finish and zero back up WHEN they go boobs up, which they do as i have 2 friends with them and neither would have another.
Almost like you are buying into the tech and the car is secondary, spares etc virtually none existent, waiting months for parts isn't where i would want to be lol.


----------



## Coops

After much deliberation, review reading, test driving and discussion in the house (it's amazing how much input two 15 year old boys have!), I've made a decision and placed an order (I think you'll probably guess what I've gone for)

But first some of the justification for those discounted:
- The Tesla models were already a no-go for me from the start
- E-Tron, whilst a great car, was let down by it's poor range
- The Mustang is an odd one, fantastic looking car IMO but the model choice available to me wasn't great in terms of specification
- Kona was a nice car, nice loaded with tech but small, not right the family as only 300 litre boot
- VW - neither liked by the OH! Enough said!


It therefore came down to 3 models, all very good in their own rights - the Polestar, Audi Q4 and Mercedes EQC.

The Audi is a great car - looks good, will have the Audi quality and roomy inside. I didn't really like some of the external trim. Range was acceptable.
Polestar 2 - was only the long range single motor. Managed to get a drive in one but whilst the interior was really good, my left leg wasn't happy on the console and there wasn't enough legroom in the back for the teenagers.
Mercedes EQC - had already driven on and knew what it was like.

I've therefore gone with the EQC AMG Line. On balance it was the best of my available models, delivers well on range and is that bit more luxurious than the Q4. No options allowed aside from the Spectral Blue metallic paint which I've done for. In fact, there doesn't tend to be that many options available on EVs as they are already fairly well loaded.

Awaiting contact from dealer (via lease company) but expect 4 month leadtime I believe.

Home charging point is next on the list to sort.


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## NickP

Coops, I think you've done a lot more research than me, my change to an EV was purely a financial one, I replaced my SQ7 with a Model 3 Performance without driving one :lol:
As an additional rate taxpayer another SQ7 would have cost me around £15-16k a year in BIK Tax, the Tesla is around £240 this year and will be around £480 next year.
The other current bonus with EV's is that they can be written down 100% in year one - we've bought 3 meaning we can write off £180k against them in year 1 which will save us around £34k in corporation tax.


----------



## Coops

NickP said:


> Coops, I think you've done a lot more research than me, my change to an EV was purely a financial one, I replaced my SQ7 with a Model 3 Performance without driving one :lol:
> As an additional rate taxpayer another SQ7 would have cost me around £15-16k a year in BIK Tax, the Tesla is around £240 this year and will be around £480 next year.
> The other current bonus with EV's is that they can be written down 100% in year one - we've bought 3 meaning we can write off £180k against them in year 1 which will save us around £34k in corporation tax.


Thanks NickP, all my previous company cars have been done without a test drive, but such is the step change to EV I felt I needed some more research.

The write down doesn't apply as our fleet is leased, but I can see the benefit to business.


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## gherkin

bellguy said:


> Wouldn't touch Tesla, poor paintwork, very poor fit and finish and zero back up WHEN they go boobs up, which they do as i have 2 friends with them and neither would have another.
> Almost like you are buying into the tech and the car is secondary, spares etc virtually none existent, waiting months for parts isn't where i would want to be lol.


i've got a Model Y (and when I get back to the UK and if i can afford it I'll get another) and I wouldn't say the paintwork is poor, its fine on mine. Fit and finish can be improved on yes but remember they've only been going 10 or so years, whereas the big corps have been around decades, what they've achieved in that time in amazing. I've not had anything go wrong (touch wood) with my Y so can't comment on the back up or spares, but I've had no problems with booking in the vehicle to have the fit and finish looked at. Yes its more tech then car however they are leaps and bounds ahead of anyone else currently.


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## Coops

Car is now ordered with Mercedes Benz dealer - current delivery is approximately February 2022, suspect that is connected with both the semiconductor and LTE component shortage, plus some fat from the dealer. Colleague had his 2 months early, but we'll see.

Made contact with a local EV charger installer so will be sending pictures to kick that process off, but not in any great rush just yet. We do have a company preferential rate with PodPoint (£30 off) but decided to look locally first. They'll give me three pricing options - basic, PodPoint (for comparison) and a high end one.

Will probably be flipping my home utility supplier to Octopus as they do an off peak tariff at 4.5p/kwh, and their standard electric isn't too far away from my current 15.93p/kwh on EDF. I do need to get a smart meter installed first though - not sure whether I can get EDF to do it then flip, or flip and get Octopus to fit. Current comms suggest that Octopus can do with leadtime of 6 weeks.


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## Andy from Sandy

Check with current company which meter they will fit. Some are company specific so if you switch it then doesn't work for the new one.

They use the mobile phone network and on some occasions what they use has poor coverage where you live.

Also if you do go smart meter billing get it set to read the meter at the highest rate. This ensures that hopefully it can get a reading close to the time the bill is generated. Initially mine was set to something like weekly and if a reading couldn't be made on the billing date an estimated bill was created. Check with supplier.


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## shl-kelso

Andy from Sandy said:


> Check with current company which meter they will fit. Some are company specific so if you switch it then doesn't work for the new one.
> 
> They use the mobile phone network and on some occasions what they use has poor coverage where you live.
> 
> Also if you do go smart meter billing get it set to read the meter at the highest rate. This ensures that hopefully it can get a reading close to the time the bill is generated. Initially mine was set to something like weekly and if a reading couldn't be made on the billing date an estimated bill was created. Check with supplier.


Smart meters in Northern England and Scotland use Arqiva's Long Range Radio network, not the mobile phone network. This has significant issues for some areas where there is no coverage due to possible interference with radar, and the promised "extended" network hubs that are meant to help fill in the not-spots on other frequencies outside this range are still vapourware. Like most central government/private contracts there is little visible oversight or pressure being out into Arqiva to sort this out, so if you are in an area with poor/no coverage then your smart metered will never communicate with the metering network.


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## andy665

Interesting to watch the Guy Martin programme on EVs last weekend where he took an Ioniq 5 from his home in Lincolnshire to John O'Groats - plagued with issues with charge points, my wife was watching it and declared "You wanted me to go EV next time - after watching this theres not a chance" - couldn't help but agree


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## Andy from Sandy

> Smart meters in Northern England and Scotland <snip>


Coops is in Leicestershire but does highlight that smart meters are not necessarily the best thing.



> Interesting to watch the Guy Martin programme on EVs


I think someone pointed out the program was made some time ago now so things should of hopefully changed since then.

Someone mentioned the Beetle is not even close to the world speed record which again also points to the fact the program was not "new".


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## Coops

Finally managed to get a smart meter booking with my current supplier, EDF.

Scheduled for next month, October :thumb:

Can then look to get the EV charger installed ready for delivery. Leadtime on those is about 2-3 weeks so again no real rush. The smart meter was the sticking point as with that installed I can get my supply switched over to the smart EV tariff.


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## RS3

andy665 said:


> Interesting to watch the Guy Martin programme on EVs last weekend where he took an Ioniq 5 from his home in Lincolnshire to John O'Groats - plagued with issues with charge points, my wife was watching it and declared "You wanted me to go EV next time - after watching this theres not a chance" - couldn't help but agree


We've just done a 900 mile treck to Cornwall and back in an Enyaq 80 with only one mishap where a charger wasn't working and another time we had to wait for 15 mins. The other 3 or 4 times where seemless and always near somewhere to eat or go for a stroll. Yes, we need more 50kw chargers for sure but I'm sold on the Enyaq, it's smoothness and comfort and I'll only be using the road chargers a handful of times a year. The one complaint was the amount£ being charged. It ranged from 19p kwh to 40p but even at higher rate much cheaper than fuelling an suv.
It's only on the long hikes it can be a pain but our stops where mostly planned and the hr or so every 3.5 hrs was a welcome break.
Just for info I had 4 adults and loads of luggage and travelled mostly at 75mph on the clock. We where still managing to get 220 miles or so with 30 odd left in the battery. I was pleasantly surprised. Just one driving around town we are getting at least 280 miles from a charge, excellent and whilst I love my hot hatches, the Enyaq is a pleasure to drive as a daily but we will have to see how well it works through the winter.


----------



## andy665

RS3 said:


> We've just done a 900 mile treck to Cornwall and back in an Enyaq 80 with only one mishap where a charger wasn't working and another time we had to wait for 15 mins. The other 3 or 4 times where seemless and always near somewhere to eat or go for a stroll. Yes, we need more 50kw chargers for sure but I'm sold on the Enyaq, it's smoothness and comfort and I'll only be using the road chargers a handful of times a year. The one complaint was the amount£ being charged. It ranged from 19p kwh to 40p but even at higher rate much cheaper than fuelling an suv.
> It's only on the long hikes it can be a pain but our stops where mostly planned and the hr or so every 3.5 hrs was a welcome break.
> Just for info I had 4 adults and loads of luggage and travelled mostly at 75mph on the clock. We where still managing to get 220 miles or so with 30 odd left in the battery. I was pleasantly surprised. Just one driving around town we are getting at least 280 miles from a charge, excellent and whilst I love my hot hatches, the Enyaq is a pleasure to drive as a daily but we will have to see how well it works through the winter.


The Enyaq is one of the few EVs I have seriously considered but staying with good old petrol / diesel for a few more years


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## NickP

RS3 said:


> We've just done a 900 mile treck to Cornwall and back in an Enyaq 80 with only one mishap where a charger wasn't working and another time we had to wait for 15 mins. The other 3 or 4 times where seemless and always near somewhere to eat or go for a stroll. Yes, we need more 50kw chargers for sure but I'm sold on the Enyaq, it's smoothness and comfort and I'll only be using the road chargers a handful of times a year. The one complaint was the amount£ being charged. It ranged from 19p kwh to 40p but even at higher rate much cheaper than fuelling an suv.
> It's only on the long hikes it can be a pain but our stops where mostly planned and the hr or so every 3.5 hrs was a welcome break.
> Just for info I had 4 adults and loads of luggage and travelled mostly at 75mph on the clock. We where still managing to get 220 miles or so with 30 odd left in the battery. I was pleasantly surprised. Just one driving around town we are getting at least 280 miles from a charge, excellent and whilst I love my hot hatches, the Enyaq is a pleasure to drive as a daily but we will have to see how well it works through the winter.


We did a similar round trip a few weeks ago and it was my first 'multi charge' experience - We went from the Essex/Suffolk border to Cornwall, then on to Hereford and back home.
The charging experience using the Tesla Superchargers is one of their major plus points. I was a bit concerned that the Lifton Supercharger point maybe really busy as its the last main Supercharger point for people heading down to Cornwall, so if you want to arrive with a good level of charge its the one you need to use. On the way down there was only 3 of the 12 in use as it was quite late in the evening, but on the way back it was showing all 12 were in use, but upon arrival there was a bay free as someone must have just left. Teslas scheme of charging people idle time if they leave their car hooked up once charged seems to work well, so no-one is going to be there more than 30 mins (theoretically)
We arrived at our destination in Cornwall with around 63% charge had a week running around locally and had just over 50% charge remaining when we left for Hereford.
I've found using the ABRP App really helpful, you enter what your SOC is when you depart, what you want your SOC to be when you arrive at your destination and it then plans your route/charging accordingly.


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## Coops

RS3 said:


> We've just done a 900 mile treck to Cornwall and back in an Enyaq 80 with only one mishap where a charger wasn't working and another time we had to wait for 15 mins. The other 3 or 4 times where seemless and always near somewhere to eat or go for a stroll. Yes, we need more 50kw chargers for sure but I'm sold on the Enyaq, it's smoothness and comfort and I'll only be using the road chargers a handful of times a year. The one complaint was the amount£ being charged. It ranged from 19p kwh to 40p but even at higher rate much cheaper than fuelling an suv.
> It's only on the long hikes it can be a pain but our stops where mostly planned and the hr or so every 3.5 hrs was a welcome break.
> Just for info I had 4 adults and loads of luggage and travelled mostly at 75mph on the clock. We where still managing to get 220 miles or so with 30 odd left in the battery. I was pleasantly surprised. Just one driving around town we are getting at least 280 miles from a charge, excellent and whilst I love my hot hatches, the Enyaq is a pleasure to drive as a daily but we will have to see how well it works through the winter.


Good info RS3, thanks. It's certainly encouraging to know, that with a little research and planning, that the distance can be travelled.


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## Coops

UPDATE:

My smart meter has now been fitted by my (current) energy provider. All done in about 2 hours. Got a little display unit in the kitchen, I'll pop some pictures up if anyone wants to see, it's nothing spectacular.

I'll be progressing the EV charger over the next couple of weeks as there is about 4-6 week leadtime on them and I want to get it done before Christmas if poss.


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## Andy from Sandy

RS3 just for some clarification I have seen the useable kWh from the battery is 77. At £0.40/kWh that would cost £30.8 to recharge. For a range of 285 miles is that really cheaper than petrol or diesel?

You are doing better for range than this tester - https://ev-database.uk/car/1280/Skoda-Enyaq-iV-80


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## RS3

Andy from Sandy said:


> RS3 just for some clarification I have seen the useable kWh from the battery is 77. At £0.40/kWh that would cost £30.8 to recharge. For a range of 285 miles is that really cheaper than petrol or diesel?
> 
> You are doing better for range than this tester - https://ev-database.uk/car/1280/Skoda-Enyaq-iV-80


I get the leccy free from work as it stands but they will start to charge at some point. On our trip to Cornwall we paid between 19p and 40p, most where about 23/24p. My boss charges his model 3 at home and says it only costs £4 to full on the new tariff he has. I worked out our 1000 mile trip saved us £60 compared to the wife's Kodiaq. 
We are currently camping up in North yorks and I should have enough to get home making family weekend trips much cheaper.


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## GeeWhizRS

On my Octopus Energy GO tariff, it's 5p per kWh between 12:30-04:30. So it costs about £2 for a full charge (which I rarely do). That gets me about 120-150 miles usually. That works out about £100 a year on my 6000 mile lease.


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## Coops

GeeWhizRS said:


> On my Octopus Energy GO tariff, it's 5p per kWh between 12:30-04:30. So it costs about £2 for a full charge (which I rarely do). That gets me about 120-150 miles usually. That works out about £100 a year on my 6000 mile lease.


That's what I'm planning on switching to, now that the SM is fitted.


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## GeeWhizRS

What charger are you going for?


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## Coops

GeeWhizRS said:


> What charger are you going for?


I've got preferential pricing from PodPoint (via my employer), it's not massive discount but most (if not all) of my colleagues have gone this route. PodPoint do all the leg work in terms of form filling and grant application; some of the other providers don't and you have to do it.


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## GeeWhizRS

That's what I ended up paying for mine a couple of years ago. I upgraded the cable to 5m and they didn't end up charging me any more. Been pleased with it.
The paperwork was minimal. I used API Electrical in Manchester.


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## Coops

Think it's about £569 now through PP. Local contractor wanted over £600.


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## Coops

Less than a week old and the display unit on the smart meter has packed up :lol:

Supplier are sending me another. It still shows the green/orange/red light on it but the display is just plain white.


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## suds

Out of interest - why a smart meter display inside the home?


----------



## Coops

suds said:


> Out of interest - why a smart meter display inside the home?


Alongside the external installation, you also get a In Home Display unit (IHD). This displays the information which is relayed back to your energy provider in terms of both electricity and gas usage. It's all linked to your account so that cost per hour etc is correct.

The light below the Home symbol shows Green, Orange or Red; with the assumption that if its:

Green: energy usage is low
Orange: energy usage is high but not excessive
Red: energy usage is excessive

This is the one I currently have:


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## GeeWhizRS

Coops, when you get set up with Octopus energy, if they give you a crappy smart meter display unit contact them and ask them if they still do the Hildebrand Glowsticks. Thats what they send me and the associated Bright app is pretty good.
https://shop.glowmarkt.com/products/glow-stick
To be honest, I don't feel the need to monitor it now but if like me, they'll send it you FOC if you tell them their standard one is garbage. :thumb:


----------



## Bristle Hound

No chance of an EV / Hybrid here
Why you ask? (Or maybe not :lol
I tow an 1800kg caravan so I need a filthy diesel - I've looked at the EV/Hybrid market & they just dont cut the mustard for me
Plus year after next I intend towing over to France / Spain

Altho to be fair my G01 X3 does 24-28mpg towing 50mpg + on similar routes without the van & 133 g/km emissions so other than the ridiculous VED rate its not to bad TBH


----------



## shl-kelso

Bristle Hound said:


> No chance of an EV / Hybrid here
> Why you ask? (Or maybe not :lol
> I tow an 1800kg caravan so I need a filthy diesel - I've looked at the EV/Hybrid market & they just dont cut the mustard for me
> Plus year after next I intend towing over to France / Spain
> 
> Altho to be fair my G01 X3 does 24-28mpg towing 50mpg + on similar routes without the van & 133 g/km emissions so other than the ridiculous VED rate its not to bad TBH


There's not much to choose from if you need to tow a "proper" caravan. Few EVs are even type-approved for a tow bar, let alone have any quoted towing capacity, and even then range would be heavily compromised. You'd probably have to unhook the caravan to access public chargers too!!

The Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV (especially the 2.4l version with bigger battery pack and motor output) gets a fair bit of love from those that use it for caravan towing. The mix of battery and engine make manoeuvring at low speeds nice and easy, but it can be a bit noisy when the engine is working hard to pull up hills.


----------



## Coops

Energy supplier has now sent me a new in home display (IHD), it's a different style and actually seems slightly better than the previous one.










Took a matter of minutes to pair it last night and we're now back up and running.


----------



## shl-kelso

Coops said:


> Energy supplier has now sent me a new in home display (IHD), it's a different style and actually seems slightly better than the previous one.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Took a matter of minutes to pair it last night and we're now back up and running.


Probably has a smart phone app you can limit too as well - mine has, but there was no info from the meter installer nor energy company about this, I had to find the app and link the IHD to wifi myself.


----------



## muzzer

Bristle Hound said:


> No chance of an EV / Hybrid here
> Why you ask? (Or maybe not :lol
> I tow an 1800kg caravan so I need a filthy diesel - I've looked at the EV/Hybrid market & they just dont cut the mustard for me
> Plus year after next I intend towing over to France / Spain
> 
> Altho to be fair my G01 X3 does 24-28mpg towing 50mpg + on similar routes without the van & 133 g/km emissions so other than the ridiculous VED rate its not to bad TBH


Even with ours which has an MTPLM of 1350kg, i don't think too many EV's would have a decent range but i do need to move the Kia on at some point because for a diseasel, it's a thirsty little bunny bearing in mind it's 'only' a 2l


----------



## Coops

** UPDATE **

No further news on the car build, still slated for late January delivery

Smart meter and IHD working well, this one hasn't failed.

But that's all in vein because we're moving house! Been looking for some time and the right one has come up for us. It's already fitted with a smart meter so that's a bonus.

The layout is different which will probably mean a non-standard EV charger installation. Standard install allows for 15m of cabling from meter box which isn't going to cut it at the new house.


----------



## Coops

** UPDATE **

New car is imminent! :thumb:

Got to call dealer to arrange delivery - can't wait!

We still haven't moved house and so don't have a charger but do have ability to charge at one of my sites, plus can use the new Moto Rugby chargers if necessary.


----------



## Coops

Delivery scheduled for Friday 14th January !!!


----------



## Andy from Sandy

Electric car sales soar, but chip shortage hits market

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-59887024



> In December, the maximum value of the grant, which is meant to bring down the cost of an electric car, was reduced from £2,500 to £1,500, and the number of eligible models was also narrowed down.
> 
> "It's a confusing message," said Mike Hawes, chief executive of the SMMT.


Maybe it's only confusing if the price customers pay is going up and not staying the same or reducing. What does the SMMT actually do?

Are manufacturers matching grant loss with price reductions?


----------



## NeilG40

Andy from Sandy said:


> Electric car sales soar, but chip shortage hits market
> 
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-59887024
> 
> Maybe it's only confusing if the price customers pay is going up and not staying the same or reducing. What does the SMMT actually do?
> 
> Are manufacturers matching grant loss with price reductions?


I did read recently that as soon as the value grant went down Vauxhall immediately reduced their prices.


----------



## Coops

Delivery day and she's arrived this morning.

Not driven her yet, setup the Mercedes Me app and paired my phone but that's it.

:thumb:

















I'll get a proper little write up done once I've had a little drive - got to pick the boys from school later so that'll be it's first outing (with me driving).


----------



## Kerr

They delivered the car as dirty as that? 

Did the not transport it to you to arrive shiny and new?


----------



## Soul boy 68

Kerr said:


> They delivered the car as dirty as that?
> 
> Did the not transport it to you to arrive shiny and new?


I guess he can detail it to his hearts content. :detailer:


----------



## Coops

Kerr said:


> They delivered the car as dirty as that?
> 
> Did the not transport it to you to arrive shiny and new?


It's a lease car and lease company allow upto 100 miles to be driven, anything over that and it's on a transporter.


----------



## Coops

I've had the EQC two weeks today so thought i'd come back and give you my thoughts on it and the EV experience.

First up, it's an absolute pleasure to drive the EQC. It's smooth, quiet and comfortable. It rides quite well despite it being 2.5tonnes in weight, and you sometimes do feel that weight when trying to brake quickly. Seats are well sculptured with plenty of adjustment - manual seat movement forward and reverse but electric lumbar and back angle. Legroom and headroom in the back is good, my lads are nearly 6 foot and found it comfortable. The seats are black leather with a black headlining - very much the same as my Volvo. Night driving is easy with the fantastic multibeam LED headlights which have adaptive highbeam assist plus. 

As you'd imagine, there is plenty of technology onboard with effectively 2x 10.25 inch displays - one for instruments and one for media (the latter being touchscreen also). Navigation is good and includes live traffic. You can also activate media (online), bluetooth media, adjust interior lighting, air conditioning settings, charging stations, charging settings etc - the usual stuff. Boot space isn't on par with the Volvo, but it's still good. All the cables go under the boot floor. There is no frunk on the EQC.


Charging - I don't have an EV charger at home just yet (being fitted this Friday) so in the interim i've been charging at one of my sites (7kW) and also using the public network. I knew this before receiving the car as we were moving house so little point having one fitted. Charging at work has been painless - depending on current state of charge it takes 4-6 hours to top up.

The public network has also been ok for me, with the odd slip up here and there. I've been into Moto Rugby on a few occasions with the Gridserve chargers and used Instavolt in the local McDonalds whilst we've been food shopping next door at Aldi! The slip ups with the charging may have been the car - first time was Saturday when the Instavolt couldn't get a connection to the car and wouldn't start charging, despite 2 attempts; and that's despite me charging there previously. Second time was this morning when had a similar problem at Rugby but it worked the second time. The chap in the BMW IX3 (SUV) wsan't having as much luck though and needed to try 4 different chargers before it worked.


Overall I'm really happy with the car. Any downsides? It's hard to get out of - it's got side running boards on and you have to kind of step over them when you get out otherwise you'll get your trousers filthy! The rear number plate also gets caked up really quickly - it's positioned down low and so gets all the road dirt on it. It was unreadable after a week.


----------



## nbray67

Nice to hear you're enjoying the car Coops.

I've recently had to make the EV choice after being advised our business use only cars were no longer an option.

My choices were vast but opted for the EQA 300 Premium after having an EQA 250 for a few days.
The spec swayed me over the Q4 Etron as these were getting expensive once options were selected.

In the process of going thru the EV Chargepoint pain but need it installed before 31st March to enable me to claim the £350 OZEV grant as I'm paying out for this rather than stick it onto the EQA order thru work as it would cost me nigh on £1100 over the 4yr lease.

Nice to hear yours was just over 4mths as I've been told mine will be approx 16wks, regardless of which, I can't take delivery until mid July when the Skoda goes back,


----------



## Coops

Cheers nbray67

I've gone to a local EV specialist for the charge point, it's still a PodPoint charger but because it's a non standard install it's worked out cheaper. You only get 15m on the standard install from meter box to charger.

Looking around at the leadtimes currently I'm curious as to whether it really was 4 months - the EQCs are pretty standard specification aside from the colour so the dealer (who supply a number of lease companies) are probably just hedging their bets on the colours / orders. Whilst an order may have been placed in August for a car, the car I actually took delivery of may have been placed some months previous??? Not sure.


----------



## Mikesphotaes

Got rid of the Merc and joined the EV revolution with a Kia e Nero.

Not had my charging point fitted yet.


----------



## Andy from Sandy

As someone stuck in the low 20K price bracket for a car at £35k for the long range base spec the Kia e-Niro is a good car but still seems very, very expensive to me.


----------



## Mikesphotaes

Andy from Sandy said:


> As someone stuck in the low 20K price bracket for a car at £35k for the long range base spec the Kia e-Niro is a good car but still seems very, very expensive to me.


More like £41k !


----------



## nbray67

Coops said:


> Cheers nbray67
> 
> I've gone to a local EV specialist for the charge point, it's still a PodPoint charger but because it's a non standard install it's worked out cheaper. You only get 15m on the standard install from meter box to charger.
> 
> Looking around at the leadtimes currently I'm curious as to whether it really was 4 months - the EQCs are pretty standard specification aside from the colour so the dealer (who supply a number of lease companies) are probably just hedging their bets on the colours / orders. Whilst an order may have been placed in August for a car, the car I actually took delivery of may have been placed some months previous??? Not sure.


Our charge point would be straight forward as it's a new build, all up to electrical regs, 100amp fuse at the cut-out with the consumer unit in the garage directly behind the elec meter box where we'd be having the charge point fitted.

I did want Hive via work but they cannot/will not guarantee installation before Mar 31st which ticked me off slightly.

Not sure which charge point to go for at the mo, but I need to make my mind up with it. 
Choices are -
Hypervolt Home 2
Easee Home
Wallbox Pulsar Plus


----------



## Coops

nbray67 said:


> Our charge point would be straight forward as it's a new build, all up to electrical regs, 100amp fuse at the cut-out with the consumer unit in the garage directly behind the elec meter box where we'd be having the charge point fitted.
> 
> I did want Hive via work but they cannot/will not guarantee installation before Mar 31st which ticked me off slightly.
> 
> Not sure which charge point to go for at the mo, but I need to make my mind up with it.
> Choices are -
> Hypervolt Home 2
> Easee Home
> Wallbox Pulsar Plus


Mine is new build also but the meter box is the opposite side of the property to the detached garage where the charger needs to be. £850 all in for the PodPoint (via local contractor not via PodPoint).

Those choices are not ones I've heard of if I'm honest, nor come across in my research.


----------



## andy665

This just highlights why I suppose some people are put off EV, potential for people to be given bad advice, get confused about a home charge point and then decide its not worth the faff and buy ICE

Should really be legislation in place now that forces all new-build developers to lay all the cabling to a suitable drive / garage location (where possible) ready for a charge point to be installed with minimum of fuss


----------



## nbray67

Coops said:


> Mine is new build also but the meter box is the opposite side of the property to the detached garage where the charger needs to be. £850 all in for the PodPoint (via local contractor not via PodPoint).
> 
> Those choices are not ones I've heard of if I'm honest, nor come across in my research.


Quoted £720, incl the £350 OZEV grant for the Hypervolt.
Or £600 for the Pulsar Plus. 
£120 is a lot of electric paid for......decisions decisions.

Thankfully, we have an integral garage and the meter is on the side of the garage, next to the drive so an easy install for them.


----------



## Coops

andy665 said:


> This just highlights why I suppose some people are put off EV, potential for people to be given bad advice, get confused about a home charge point and then decide its not worth the faff and buy ICE
> 
> Should really be legislation in place now that forces all new-build developers to lay all the cabling to a suitable drive / garage location (where possible) ready for a charge point to be installed with minimum of fuss


They have gone one step further - legislation comes in this year where all new builds must have EV chargers fitted :thumb:


----------



## PugIain

I've just bought a Corolla hybrid. Maybe full electric next.


----------



## NickP

I had Rolec ones installed both at home and work - the home one is just a 7kw one, but the dual one I had fitted at work is a little more beefy (22kw) as we have the benefit of a 3 Phase supply. 
Both seem to be performing well, although I rarely use the home one...


----------



## Coops

nbray67 said:


> Quoted £720, incl the £350 OZEV grant for the Hypervolt.
> Or £600 for the Pulsar Plus.
> £120 is a lot of electric paid for......decisions decisions.
> 
> Thankfully, we have an integral garage and the meter is on the side of the garage, next to the drive so an easy install for them.


I think they are all pretty much of a muchness these days. Maybe just aesthetics between them. Some don't need a earth rod, some do.

I just wanted one which was tethered and had smart charging abilities; so being able to be managed by an app etc.


----------



## Coops

NickP said:


> I had Rolec ones installed both at home and work - the home one is just a 7kw one, but the dual one I had fitted at work is a little more beefy (22kw) as we have the benefit of a 3 Phase supply.
> Both seem to be performing well, although I rarely use the home one...
> [/url]


Got some Rolec ones are work - they are a bit temperamental but I think that's more to do with the wiring than anything.

I've just plugged in at work - 7.4kW - 12% to 90% - be done at 5pm:thumb:


----------



## Coops

The PodPoint installation is underway and good news already.

Original plan was to route the cable externally from meter box, up and through the loft space, down and under a path then to the detached garage. However upon further investigation, the consumer unit in the garage is being changed as the feed can cope with the power draw. Reduction of £60 in the install cost which is good news, plus the install looks a bit neater to as the cabling won't be visible.

The consumer unit is right behind where the PodPoint is going. Will share some pictures later.


----------



## spyk3d

Looks good Coops.

Seen lots of horror stories of Rolec units either dying and needing fully replaced or burning out due to poor quality internals.

I’ve gone for an EO Charging “EO Mini Pro 2” which is being installed on the 18th Feb. I’m slightly excited because its an abolsutely tiny unit but seems really powerful.


----------



## The Cueball

Decided to spent some company money… got this fridge coming soon… well December apparently… :lol:


----------



## B8sy

I've got this one coming next month, I know its not the best looking but it's the performance model so a bit lower and big wheels help with the look.

For anyone still looking at chargers, I'm having a myenergi zappi installed, it's one of the most advanced on the market for smart charging and incorporates with solar panels so will help with charging costs in the summer when any return electricity tariffs are paying terribly for excess, might as well put it in the car instead.









Sent from my CLT-L09 using Tapatalk


----------



## Andy from Sandy

Ioniq 5 has 800 volt battery that can use level 3 chargers, 350kW charging and an 80% top up in 18 minutes.

Now we are talking - times comparable with filling up a petrol or diesel car.


----------



## Andyblue

The Cueball said:


> Decided to spent some company money… got this fridge coming soon… well December apparently… :lol:


Seen a couple around and they do look nice :thumb:


----------



## Rayaan

I've got the zappi for the UXe.

Good unit and the customer service is top rate. Had a solenoid go in the first few months and they changed it for the updated part within 3 days.


----------



## SteveTDCi

Ioniq is a fantastic car, for me Kia and Hyundai are leading the way with electric cars.

There is an interesting video on carwow about range and how things affect its range.


----------



## Soul boy 68

SteveTDCi said:


> Ioniq is a fantastic car, for me Kia and Hyundai are leading the way with electric cars.
> 
> There is an interesting video on carwow about range and how things affect its range.


I watched the video and I think it's shockingly poor at how bad the range becomes when you start using the essential items on the car.


----------



## SteveTDCi

Soul boy 68 said:


> I watched the video and I think it's shockingly poor at how bad the range becomes when you start using the essential items on the car.


Even if you disregard the bit about towing to get the full range you cannot use the lights, heating wiper ... to me that seems madness.


----------



## ridders66

Soul boy 68 said:


> I watched the video and I think it's shockingly poor at how bad the range becomes when you start using the essential items on the car.


We have two Telsa Model X dual motors at work which are company cars for two directors. One of them told me that as soon as he sets off from home, if he switches on his heated rear window, heated seats, or heating system it absolutely batters the range within minutes, to the point that he doesn't use them unless he absolutely has to. 
That, in a car which cost £120K, and is supposedly the future, is a joke. I am of the opinion that this is being forced upon us in too short a time, and the infrastructure will not be in place come 2030. EVs are not as green as they appear, as they are considerably heavier than other vehicles, there is more particles released from the brakes, for example. If the batteries fail after the warranty expires in, say, 8 years, who can afford new batteries? Will the car be scrapped and recycled at 8 years old? As anyone knows, an 8 year old car these days doesn't corrode, doesn't age like cars of old. So you could realistically be scrapping a car which looks and drives like new, but only needs new batteries. Madness. When we all have an EV, where is all the electric going to come from? And finally, for all the people stating that it only costs a few pounds for a full charge, do you not think that as soon as we all have EVs, the cost of electric will rocket?


----------



## Christian6984

ridders66 said:


> We have two Telsa Model X dual motors at work which are company cars for two directors. One of them told me that as soon as he sets off from home, if he switches on his heated rear window, heated seats, or heating system it absolutely batters the range within minutes, to the point that he doesn't use them unless he absolutely has to.
> That, in a car which cost £120K, and is supposedly the future, is a joke. I am of the opinion that this is being forced upon us in too short a time, and the infrastructure will not be in place come 2030. EVs are not as green as they appear, as they are considerably heavier than other vehicles, there is more particles released from the brakes, for example. If the batteries fail after the warranty expires in, say, 8 years, who can afford new batteries? Will the car be scrapped and recycled at 8 years old? As anyone knows, an 8 year old car these days doesn't corrode, doesn't age like cars of old. So you could realistically be scrapping a car which looks and drives like new, but only needs new batteries. Madness. When we all have an EV, where is all the electric going to come from? And finally, for all the people stating that it only costs a few pounds for a full charge, do you not think that as soon as we all have EVs, the cost of electric will rocket?


I don't know much about electric cars but could he not pre-heat the tesla's interior while its plugged in before he sets off from the app, Im sure I read that it takes the power from the plug to do this rather than the cars battery itself. Not that that makes much greener


----------



## Derekh929

SteveTDCi said:


> Ioniq is a fantastic car, for me Kia and Hyundai are leading the way with electric cars.
> 
> There is an interesting video on carwow about range and how things affect its range.


Yes they are up there, I was out in an I30N at weekend, hat a fantastic car, I'm going to try the Ioniq as well heard such good things about them, the I30N was up there with the JCW:thumb:


----------



## dreamtheater

They are hoping batteries will become cheaper as more people switch to EV. My view is they only want rich people driving cars, and certainly when the only option for me to drive EV I will not do it. I do not take car finance/pcp on cars and will not want to buy a secondhand EV with the battery range completely worn out.



ridders66 said:


> We have two Telsa Model X dual motors at work which are company cars for two directors. One of them told me that as soon as he sets off from home, if he switches on his heated rear window, heated seats, or heating system it absolutely batters the range within minutes, to the point that he doesn't use them unless he absolutely has to.
> That, in a car which cost £120K, and is supposedly the future, is a joke. I am of the opinion that this is being forced upon us in too short a time, and the infrastructure will not be in place come 2030. EVs are not as green as they appear, as they are considerably heavier than other vehicles, there is more particles released from the brakes, for example. If the batteries fail after the warranty expires in, say, 8 years, who can afford new batteries? Will the car be scrapped and recycled at 8 years old? As anyone knows, an 8 year old car these days doesn't corrode, doesn't age like cars of old. So you could realistically be scrapping a car which looks and drives like new, but only needs new batteries. Madness. When we all have an EV, where is all the electric going to come from? And finally, for all the people stating that it only costs a few pounds for a full charge, do you not think that as soon as we all have EVs, the cost of electric will rocket?


----------



## Andy from Sandy

I think battery prices may not fall as fast as hoped. There is not that many places that have lithium lying around.

Chile and Australia hold the largest reserves and they may just decide to control the price.


----------



## andy665

Andy from Sandy said:


> Chile and Australia hold the largest reserves and they may just decide to control the price.


And who owns most of the land in these areas that are lithium rich - the Chinese state - that has been openly buying up vast areas that are rich in minerals for at least 20 years and the rest of the world has just let it happen

EVs have a place but I have always believed it is a part of a solution - not the entire solution.

Unfortunately too many misinformed politicians over many years have wanted to make a stand against petrol / diesel and have flung us down a partial blind alley.

We need integrated transport solutions, a change of personal and global mindset and massive investment in to other solutions. Vehicle emissions and their fossil fuel usage and overall environmental impact has never been looked at in anything other than isolation.

No politician / bureaucrat one has ever really looked at the different needs / demands of people in highly populated urban areas and in rural areas - a one solution fits all approach will never work but thats what is being delivered - EV for everyone - case closed


----------



## Starbuck88

I'm hoping the carbon neutral synthetic fuels that are being reported on more and more are the answer.

Fuel made from capturing carbon from the atmosphere, a bit of electric from 'Renewable' sources and bingo, you're only putting out Co2 that you captured in the first place. 

Because lets face it. UK and other Euro countries can virtue signal this issue all they want but the vast majority of countries around the world are still going to need petrol/diesel vehicles.


----------



## Coops

Christian6984 said:


> I don't know much about electric cars but could he not pre-heat the tesla's interior while its plugged in before he sets off from the app, Im sure I read that it takes the power from the plug to do this rather than the cars battery itself. Not that that makes much greener


Yep that's the idea - before I got my home charger I was losing 5-7 miles off the range at the start of each journey; presumably as the car was heating up - seats, heater, rescreen etc.

This morning I pre-heated it and there was only a negligible loss of range as the equipment draws from the charger and not the car.


----------



## Andy from Sandy

The move to EV is starting to unravel!

I read part of an article but can't remember the title stating that lithium is going up in price not down. Just like any product supply and demand and with high demand Australia, Chile and I think it is Bolivia are in control.

I still think there is a very small number of manufacturers capable of making lithium cells. The component bought by the pack manufacturers to assemble into car batteries.

Governments are seeing that what is being invested is not enough but with cost of living expenses soaring where is the money going to come from?


----------



## JU5T1N

Theres now articles like this coming out, 
https://fleetworld.co.uk/ev-chargers-to-turn-off-at-peak-times-to-protect-national-grid/
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...drain-batteries-parked-electric-vehicles.html

Our national grid won't be able to support everyone having eletric cars, it already appears to be struggling, all the investment in useless green energy that doesn't work and the increasing demand for it means the prices will soar and it will be unaffordable to most people or it will have to be rationed. We will all be forced into eletric cars then the eletric to put in them will be unaffordable or unavailable and you won't be able to use them anyway it will be the end of personal transport which I suspect is the plan.


----------



## Coops

I might be wrong but there is only a handful of cars which have V2G capabilities - for the Octopus Energy trail it's only the Nissan Leaf. I also believe the new Ioniq 5 has V2G, eitherway the list is very small.


----------



## GeeWhizRS

My Octopus Energy GO tariff is coming to an end soon. This allowed 0:30-04:30 charging at 5p/kwh so my annual cost to charge was around £80 based on around 5000 miles (3 miles per kWh). The changes to the GO tariff peak rate (7.5p off peak / 30p peak) are such that it is going to make it a lot more expensive on the GO tariff than on their standard variable tariff (20p all hours) so I'm moving to that. If they're wanting people to charge outside of peak time then they should make it financially beneficial to do so. I will shortly be able plug my car in at any time that suits me which isn't going to help them. Granted I'm not a massive user but lots of users like me add up.
p.s. If my mileage was higher (10k+) then it would pay to stay on the GO tariff.


----------



## andy665

The company where my wife works has just taken all electric vehicles off the company car list after 4 years as they are not proving cost effective (albeit very attractive to the drivers) when compared to ICE vehicles on the fleet, this is looking at TCO rather than any one specific area


----------



## NickP

JU5T1N said:


> Theres now articles like this coming out,
> https://fleetworld.co.uk/ev-chargers-to-turn-off-at-peak-times-to-protect-national-grid/
> https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...drain-batteries-parked-electric-vehicles.html
> 
> Our national grid won't be able to support everyone having eletric cars, it already appears to be struggling, all the investment in useless green energy that doesn't work and the increasing demand for it means the prices will soar and it will be unaffordable to most people or it will have to be rationed. We will all be forced into eletric cars then the eletric to put in them will be unaffordable or unavailable and you won't be able to use them anyway it will be the end of personal transport which I suspect is the plan.


Did you fully read the articles you've quoted?

"It's also pointed out that the most demand for electricity we've had in recent years in the UK was for 62GW in 2002. Since then, due to improved energy efficiency such as the installation of solar panels, the nation's peak demand has fallen by roughly 16%.

Even if everyone all switched to EVs overnight, demand would only increase by around 10%, according to National Grid's prediction - less than the demand in 2002."


----------



## Soul boy 68

I'm in no rush or pressure what so ever to switch, I'm waiting to see other alternatives, especially hydrogen powered vehicles which motor manufactures are investing in to and how the technology improves over the coming years.


----------



## Coops

GeeWhizRS said:


> My Octopus Energy GO tariff is coming to an end soon. This allowed 0:30-04:30 charging at 5p/kwh so my annual cost to charge was around £80 based on around 5000 miles (3 miles per kWh). The changes to the GO tariff peak rate (7.5p off peak / 30p peak) are such that it is going to make it a lot more expensive on the GO tariff than on their standard variable tariff (20p all hours) so I'm moving to that. If they're wanting people to charge outside of peak time then they should make it financially beneficial to do so. I will shortly be able plug my car in at any time that suits me which isn't going to help them. Granted I'm not a massive user but lots of users like me add up.
> p.s. If my mileage was higher (10k+) then it would pay to stay on the GO tariff.


Exactly the reason I've stayed with my current provider on 15.93p/kwh as these off peak EV tariffs are heavily loaded on the off-off peak to compensate.


----------



## B8sy

Coops said:


> Exactly the reason I've stayed with my current provider on 15.93p/kwh as these off peak EV tariffs are heavily loaded on the off-off peak to compensate.


My deal has just ended, I've gone from 15.7p to 24p and now I've had an email today to say in April when the cap ends it's going to 28p plus the standing charge per day is doubling to just under 50p, that's with no off peak discount either. It still means my existing eV and new one will cost roughly half our previous ice cars which both averaged low 40mpg figures but does sting a bit compared to 15.7p. I'll be shopping around come April when all companies release their new pricing.

Sent from my CLT-L09 using Tapatalk


----------



## Coops

B8sy said:


> My deal has just ended, I've gone from 15.7p to 24p and now I've had an email today to say in April when the cap ends it's going to 28p plus the standing charge per day is doubling to just under 50p, that's with no off peak discount either. It still means my existing eV and new one will cost roughly half our previous ice cars which both averaged low 40mpg figures but does sting a bit compared to 15.7p. I'll be shopping around come April when all companies release their new pricing.
> 
> Sent from my CLT-L09 using Tapatalk


Be keen to understand what you end up going to. My deal is pretty good at the minute - 15.93p and 22.89p standing charge.


----------



## Andy from Sandy

Has the companies operating costs doubled to have to double the standing charge? That is a rip-off for sure.


----------



## Rob_Quads

Andy from Sandy said:


> Has the companies operating costs doubled to have to double the standing charge? That is a rip-off for sure.


Costs have massively increased at the lowest level which of course means its massively exaggerated because then everyone along the chain adds their extra cut so while costs are going up they are also making ALOT more money as businesses.

Be glad its not taxed like petrol otherwise it would be increasing even more... although who knows what the future holds. Also be glad your supplier didn't go bust like many who are now shafted with being on standard tariffs with no better options available


----------



## Rundie

Rob_Quads said:


> Be glad its not taxed like petrol otherwise it would be increasing even more...


It'll happen, like with Diesel they wait until loads move over and then increase or add further taxes. Running costs on EV will only go one way.


----------



## Coops

Thought I'd just drop in a little update on the EQC, now that I'm about 3k miles in. Some good news, some bad news.

First off, it's a really nice driving experience - quiet, smooth and generally fuss free. It waffs along without any problem and you've got benefit of knowing it'll shift if you need it to - it's an absolute weapon for overtaking on A roads! My driving style has changed as a result of the EV, I tend to use the cruise control a lot more and look further down the road, pre planning manoeuvres. I'm probably averaged between 2.3 and 2.6 miles per kwh. Not sure whether that's good or bad, it can get upto as much as 3.5 in some extreme cases but that's not very often (that's ignoring the parts when it free wheels and the consumption goes skyward!)

Now some not so great news, suffered some problems this last week and the EQC has been VOR. For information, the fault is resolved but I don't know the full details until I see the job sheet on collection tomorrow.

I returned home from work on Friday evening, 50 mile journey, no issues, car had been on charge at work most of the day. Went to go back out later that evening (to collect a takeaway), pressed the start button and nothing. All the auxiliary functions worked - dashboard, phone, radio etc but the car wouldn't physically power up. Thought it was just a blip so switched everything off, locked car, unlocked and tried again. Still nothing. Dash was showing "Drive System Malfunction", big red battery symbol and that the charging cable was connected. Cable wasn't connected but the socket flap was locked and couldn't be opened (despite the car being fully unlocked)

Got straight onto Mercedes through the button in the car - passed over all my details and they said they'd despatch RAC to take a look. (I knew at this stage that normal RAC patrol wouldn't have a hope in hell of sorting it so wasn't expecting much). Within 2 minutes got another call to say exactly this and that I needed a MB Tech, one would be out Saturday morning. As I was stuck at home this was no issue.

MB Tech arrived Saturday morning as planned. RAC liveried but MB Tech. Really knowledgeable and helpful chap. He first suggested a hard reset by disconnecting the 12v battery for 10 mins. That route failed. Next option was to run some diagnostics via his laptop. On doing this, car was registered 2 current faults and 10 stored faults! The current faults were connected to the HV battery and he attempted some updates/upgrades via SCN coding. None of this worked. Recovery to MB was going to be required. Simplistically the car had lost comms and couldn't communicate with the HV battery, sounded terminal!

This is where it gets interesting.

The Tech sorted everything out via MB - recovery company contacted, preferred dealer selected and hire car to be arranged. Received all the necessary emails and texts for this. Recovery company called Saturday afternoon and we arranged for Monday. Europcar rang me Sunday for some information and I was to get a call Monday.

A Class delivered Monday morning by Europcar - nice little car and just the job. Recovery agent arrived Monday in a bid to recover the stricken EQC but despite me telling them on Saturday was unable to do it because the entire car was locked in park. Didn't appear to be anyway to release the motors to enable moving it onto the truck. Whilst you can release the park brake obviously the motors front and rear mean it would have to be lifted. Recovery company would need to get hold of some lifting equipment to do this. Spoke to them and to MB on Monday afternoon and the recovery company were sorting out getting hold of an Eastract. Basically a caterpillar tracked remote control lifting truck which can pick up stricken vehicles. They are like rocking horse poo so it could be a few days until they managed to get hold of it - told MB the hire car would need extending.

Finally got a call on Wednesday that they'd got hold of one, so darted back home in the afternoon to get it done. Fantastic bit of kit and the driver was brilliant, took his time as he didn't want to damage either the car or my drive. Off it went to MB Derby. It's quite scary watching this machine balance your car in mid air whilst it trundles off down the road!









Really wasn't sure how long it would take them to diagnose and fix the problem and was expecting it to be out for the long haul. I knew MB had started to work on it during Thursday as my Mercedes Me app kept pinging me about critical level of 12v battery, doors being open etc. The pings finally stopped mid afternoon and I could see the car had been parked up in their car park. Had they fixed it already?? Turned out they had and I got a call to say all ready to collect.

At this stage all I know is that it was a wiring fault which they've had to rectify. I will be asking for the job sheet so that I can pass it onto my lease company for reference.

Must admit that I can't fault Mercedes Benz at all, service and communication has been top notch.

_
We still managed to get the takeaway Friday night BTW!_


----------



## nbray67

Some fault that buddy that req'd a remote recovery vehicle. I actually saw one on social media from a local recovery company and they are very impressive.

Fingers crossed the EQC is all fixed now.

I chased up my EQA 300 the other day for an update on delivery etc, Mercedes were of no use at all!! :wall:


----------



## ridders66

Porsche Taycans seem to have massive faults. I know three who have had them, every one has failed time and time again. All three have now been thrown back at Porsche for good.
Interestingly, I had a conversation about an electric Fiat Ducato van. Range a claimed 160 miles. real world range about 100 miles, that's before you open the rear doors to load it up. A smaller load, as the payload is smaller due to the weight of the vehicle. The cost of these wonder vans? £60K.
Talking to an Amazon driver about their electric Sprinters. They can only use them to deliver parcels close to their hub, as the range isn't good enough to be used anywhere near as much as they would like.
I've said it before, the infrastructure is nowhere near in place, and the technology is lacking too. How can a vehicle which costs so much be so restricting to you? This is not the future. It is a backward step.


----------



## JU5T1N

There's a few articles around that say Ev's aren't any more relieable than petrol or diesel and in some cases there less relieable and its nearly always the software that goes wrong.


----------



## RS3

JU5T1N said:


> There's a few articles around that say Ev's aren't any more relieable than petrol or diesel and in some cases there less relieable and its nearly always the software that goes wrong.


The Enyaqs and IDs have lot of glitches that stops you using features but rarely stops you using the car. My Enyaq has had a couple of issues with the touch screen, sunroof and sound system etc but not for a long time now. Had it since August and otherwise trouble free.


----------



## Andy from Sandy

Is that quality sacrificed in the desperate effort to keep the already very high prices down a bit?


----------



## andy665

Andy from Sandy said:


> Is that quality sacrificed in the desperate effort to keep the already very high prices down a bit?


I think its more about rushing to get product to market - development cycles are massively reduced compared to the past and when it comes to EV I think its a big mistake

The company my wife works for has run a number of EVs/ PHEVs or the last 2 years, TCO for the EVs is higher than in previous petrol / diesel engine although PHEVs are comparable, reliability is massively worse for the EVs (Tesla and Audi), both minor and major faults being encountered

Its not like EV is new technology its about the rush to not focus on getting the basics right but loading up the tech wherever possible to add to "consumer appeal"


----------



## bidderman1969

get rid and get the Kia EV6


----------



## Andy from Sandy

Over £40k so subject to extra tax. What is it with these car prices?


----------



## bidderman1969

Andy from Sandy said:


> Over £40k so subject to extra tax. What is it with these car prices?


buy cheap, buy twice, :lol::lol:

seriously though, not heard of any problems with the Kia's yet


----------



## Andy from Sandy

Well that's one blessing then.


----------



## TheRonin

I've had a Jaguar i-pace on order since September, hopefully arriving in May. HSE Caesium blue.


----------



## Mikesphotaes

Andy from Sandy said:


> Over £40k so subject to extra tax. What is it with these car prices?


No extra tax on electric cars, you just don't get the grants!


----------



## Andy from Sandy

Another blessing. Thanks.


----------



## Coops

nbray67 said:


> Some fault that buddy that req'd a remote recovery vehicle. I actually saw one on social media from a local recovery company and they are very impressive.
> 
> Fingers crossed the EQC is all fixed now.
> 
> I chased up my EQA 300 the other day for an update on delivery etc, Mercedes were of no use at all!! :wall:


Unfortunately was the only way to get it recovered in this instance.

Collected Saturday and everything OK, not 100% clear on the actual fault. Waiting for the Technician to send me a report on it.


----------



## Coops

TheRonin said:


> I've had a Jaguar i-pace on order since September, hopefully arriving in May. HSE Caesium blue.


Nice. That's the colour and spec I originally wanted until the lease company dropped the i-Pace.


----------



## GeeWhizRS

Mikesphotaes said:


> No extra tax on electric cars, you just don't get the grants!


The luxury car tax applies to any cars over £40k and is currently £310 a year for the first 5 years.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/vehicle-excise-duty/vehicle-excise-duty

EDIT: Apologies, Mike, you're right.


----------



## TheRonin

GeeWhizRS said:


> The luxury car tax applies to any cars over £40k and is currently £310 a year for the first 5 years.
> https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/vehicle-excise-duty/vehicle-excise-duty


Pretty sure EVs are exempt from this until 2025


----------



## TheRonin

Coops said:


> Nice. That's the colour and spec I originally wanted until the lease company dropped the i-Pace.


You would probably still be waiting for the car if my experience is anything to go by. Did you get chance to test drive the ipace? For me out of the cars I tested it was the best drivers car and felt the most comfortable, but the infotainment and most of the other tech is lagging behind the competition.


----------



## GeeWhizRS

TheRonin said:


> Pretty sure EVs are exempt from this until 2025


Just double-checked that, you're right. Seems they announced that in 2020, which was after I bought my EV. I recall dropping front parking sensors off the extras list as it took the value over 40k. Good to know. :thumb:


----------



## Coops

TheRonin said:


> You would probably still be waiting for the car if my experience is anything to go by. Did you get chance to test drive the ipace? For me out of the cars I tested it was the best drivers car and felt the most comfortable, but the infotainment and most of the other tech is lagging behind the competition.


Never got to test drive as it was dropped by lease company. Judging by feedback on the I-Pace forum, the tech issues are frequent so whilst I agree it's the best driving car it's seriously let down by the tech failures.

The EQC has it's flaws but so far it's been fine as a family car. We had 5 in it on Sunday for an away rugby match (kids) and it was still effortless.


----------



## TheRonin

Coops said:


> Never got to test drive as it was dropped by lease company. Judging by feedback on the I-Pace forum, the tech issues are frequent so whilst I agree it's the best driving car it's seriously let down by the tech failures.
> 
> The EQC has it's flaws but so far it's been fine as a family car. We had 5 in it on Sunday for an away rugby match (kids) and it was still effortless.


I'm a member on the ipace forum and yes it does have its issues, but reading most ev forums a lot of manufacturers are also haveing similar issues.


----------



## Coops

Good day with warmer temperatures yesterday.

Started on *152* mile range from home
Completed *100* miles in total (40+60)
Finished on *79* miles range

Consumption averaged at 3.0 mpkwh, usually around 2.2-2.4.


----------



## RS3

Coops said:


> Good day with warmer temperatures yesterday.
> 
> Started on *152* mile range from home
> Completed *100* miles in total (40+60)
> Finished on *79* miles range
> 
> Consumption averaged at 3.0 mpkwh, usually around 2.2-2.4.


Yeah, just a month ago I was only getting a predicted range of just 200 miles with a WLPT of 322. Last Friday I charged to 100% and predicted range at 260 miles. Predict within the next month ill be back up to 280 miles-ish like last summer. That's for an Enyaq 80.
Temperature makes a huge difference because the interior heater is 5kw and the battery heater is 7kw. Both being used even before you set off. I am currently averaging 2.8mpkwh but that will raise to over 3 i expect.


----------



## shl-kelso

Same here, it’s been warm and sunny for a few days now, and today my average consumption has settled at 4.5miles/kWh, up from the 3.3-3.5miles/kWh I’ve seen over the winter.


----------



## Coops

shl-kelso said:


> Same here, it's been warm and sunny for a few days now, and today my average consumption has settled at 4.5miles/kWh, up from the 3.3-3.5miles/kWh I've seen over the winter.


Like ICE it's fascinating that different EVs have different rates of electron onsumption! I think people believe that just because it's an EV it's automatically efficient. It is but theres different levels of that efficiency.


----------



## Coops

Did some quick data capture over the last couple of days on the EQC:

- Charged car to 80% on Monday night
- Travelled total of 120 miles across Tuesday and Wednesday (92+28)
- Charged back to 80% on Wednesday night

Cost of that was £8.01 (@ 15.93p per kwh, 50.3 kwh)

That's 6.7 pence per mile

Bare with me here as this is a very broad brush comparison
- £8.01 would have bought 4.81 litres of petrol (@ £1.67 per litre) or 4.47 litres of diesel (@1.79 per litre)
- Using a flat 45 mpg consumption, would have returned 47.56 miles (petrol) or 44.22 miles (diesel)
- Therefore the relative cost per mile of petrol would be 16.84 pence per mile or diesel at 18.11 pence per mile


Obviously that doesn't take into account any purchase costs, ownership costs (insurance, company car BIK tax etc) or maintenance costs for any of the vehicles. It's purely a comparison of efficiency.

Does that make sense or not?


----------



## GeeWhizRS

Coops, when does your electric tariff expire? Thats a good rate to be on. Octopus were messing me about with confusing emails about tariffs, so now I'm back on their GO tariff. The GO peak rate is about 2p dearer than the variable peak rate (28p/30p), the off peak (night) rate is 7.5p.


----------



## Coops

GeeWhizRS said:


> Coops, when does your electric tariff expire? Thats a good rate to be on. Octopus were messing me about with confusing emails about tariffs, so now I'm back on their GO tariff. The GO peak rate is about 2p dearer than the variable peak rate (28p/30p), the off peak (night) rate is 7.5p.


Yes it's a good rate - with EDF and runs out at end of June this year.


----------



## NickP

Those are my stats for the last month, the majority of charging is done at my work which is at 18.9p KWH


----------



## Coops

https://www.electrifying.com/blog/article/tesla-set-to-open-up-uk-supercharger-network-within-weeks

Tesla could open up charging network in weeks.


----------



## GeeWhizRS

Coops said:


> https://www.electrifying.com/blog/article/tesla-set-to-open-up-uk-supercharger-network-within-weeks
> 
> Tesla could open up charging network in weeks.


Good news. I would expect there would be some Tesla drivers unimpressed when they rock up and find it queued with other brands though. 😁


----------



## Coops

GeeWhizRS said:


> Good news. I would expect there would be some Tesla drivers unimpressed when they rock up and find it queued with other brands though. 😁


Suspect so and thought it was coming after the announcement that Gridserve were scaling back their exclusivity rights to improve competition.


----------



## ridders66

Coops said:


> Did some quick data capture over the last couple of days on the EQC:
> 
> - Charged car to 80% on Monday night
> - Travelled total of 120 miles across Tuesday and Wednesday (92+28)
> - Charged back to 80% on Wednesday night
> 
> Cost of that was £8.01 (@ 15.93p per kwh, 50.3 kwh)
> 
> That's 6.7 pence per mile
> 
> Bare with me here as this is a very broad brush comparison
> - £8.01 would have bought 4.81 litres of petrol (@ £1.67 per litre) or 4.47 litres of diesel (@1.79 per litre)
> - Using a flat 45 mpg consumption, would have returned 47.56 miles (petrol) or 44.22 miles (diesel)
> - Therefore the relative cost per mile of petrol would be 16.84 pence per mile or diesel at 18.11 pence per mile
> 
> Obviously that doesn't take into account any purchase costs, ownership costs (insurance, company car BIK tax etc) or maintenance costs for any of the vehicles. It's purely a comparison of efficiency.
> 
> Does that make sense or not?


Yes, it makes sense. However, you haven't taken into account the initial cost of the car. An EV is much more expensive to buy, in many cases double the price. Say, for example, a petrol or diesel car costs you £20K, the electric version would probably cost £45K, so you need to factor in purchase costs too.


----------



## Rayaan

ridders66 said:


> Yes, it makes sense. However, you haven't taken into account the initial cost of the car. An EV is much more expensive to buy, in many cases double the price. Say, for example, a petrol or diesel car costs you £20K, the electric version would probably cost £45K, so you need to factor in purchase costs too.


But you havent taken into account the tax benefits

I got 100% FYA on mine and it worked out to almost £26k


----------



## ridders66

Rayaan said:


> But you havent taken into account the tax benefits
> 
> I got 100% FYA on mine and it worked out to almost £26k


That's on a company car scheme, I get that. But what about the man in the street who has to buy the car?
How can an average person afford to pay double, and some, for a car which is battery powered, over a 'normal' car? They work for those with a company car, and if you lease. But what about everyone else?


----------



## ridders66

All the company cars at work are being replaced next month. Many of the staff are going over to an EV. This is for company car tax reasons only, as, due to the nature of our business, EVs are not practical. Many of the staff will use them only to commute to and from work, and we are having a diesel car as a general runabout. For example, one day we may need to drive from near Preston to Manchester to collect a vehicle from the body builders, then deliver it immediately to our customer in, say, Cumbria. Then on the way back we would drop by in Blackpool to collect another vehicle. This is the day to day work for some staff. It cannot be feasibly done in an EV without adversely affecting the running of the business.


----------



## Rayaan

ridders66 said:


> That's on a company car scheme, I get that. But what about the man in the street who has to buy the car?
> How can an average person afford to pay double, and some, for a car which is battery powered, over a 'normal' car? They work for those with a company car, and if you lease. But what about everyone else?


I did buy the car and I'm self employed. I use that car for 80% business use so I still get FYA.


----------



## Andy from Sandy

I picked out this from here - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-60838192



> Why are electric cars so expensive?
> 
> EV batteries are expensive to make and a high level of investment is needed to transform existing factory production lines to manufacture the new technology.
> 
> However, costs are expected to come down in the near future: The SMMT forecasts electric and internal combustion engine cars should cost roughly the same "by the end of this decade."
> 
> Vehicle tax is based on how much pollution a car emits, so zero emissions vehicles like electric cars are exempt.


ICE vehicles will continue to rise in price until the end of the decade. I suspect EV vehicles will not come down much at all.

How naive to think that EV owners will be running on the road tax free.


----------



## Andy from Sandy

Rayaan said:


> But you haven't taken into account the tax benefits
> 
> I got 100% FYA on mine and it worked out to almost £26k
> 
> I did buy the car and I'm self employed. I use that car for 80% business use so I still get FYA.


You have used the tax system which is not open to the vast majority of us.

In around 3 to 4 years the tax applied to EVs will start to steadily rise.


----------



## Andy from Sandy

One question though - does the electric connectors lock in place so the cable can't simply be unplugged? All that open street charging that is going to happen sometime soon could be an absolute nightmare.


----------



## GeeWhizRS

Andy from Sandy said:


> One question though - does the electric connectors lock in place so the cable can't simply be unplugged? All that open street charging that is going to happen sometime soon could be an absolute nightmare.


The plugs should be locked in place during the charging process. If you set your charger (or car) so that it only charges at a certain scheduled time, then you can remove the plug until the charging process starts. At least, that's my understanding, I haven't tested this as mine charges between 00:30-04:30.


----------



## Andyblue

Andy from Sandy said:


> One question though - does the electric connectors lock in place so the cable can't simply be unplugged? All that open street charging that is going to happen sometime soon could be an absolute nightmare.


Mate at work has a leaf and he says it locks - this was a question I asked.

Not sure if it licks to the charger though ?? (His home charger isn't a permanent tether)


----------



## Rayaan

Andy from Sandy said:


> One question though - does the electric connectors lock in place so the cable can't simply be unplugged? All that open street charging that is going to happen sometime soon could be an absolute nightmare.


On our UX300e the charger locks into place as soon as the car is locked. After charging the car needs to be unlocked for the charger to come out. It does this with scheduled charging as well.


----------



## Coops

Rayaan said:


> On our UX300e the charger locks into place as soon as the car is locked. After charging the car needs to be unlocked for the charger to come out. It does this with scheduled charging as well.


Same on my EQC, everything locked when the car is locked.

I think on the majority of chargers where you provide your own cable, the cable is also locked into the charging post/socket. The ones at my work do this.


----------



## Berylburton

Andy from Sandy said:


> One question though - does the electric connectors lock in place so the cable can't simply be unplugged? All that open street charging that is going to happen sometime soon could be an absolute nightmare.


On my EV, yes. I Have a Kia e-Niro
Once the cable is in and the handshake takes place, I need to unlock the doors, even if they are open, then have 3-4 sec to remove the cable.


----------



## bidderman1969

I was in London yesterday, Harley Street, came across this....



















3 things, is this what's coming to the future streets of the UK, and am I the only one that can see serious lawsuits prevailing? a also, in the second pic (taken from google maps), this is what it was plugged into, a small socket, no meter or anything, just the socket, is the electric from the lamppost free?


----------



## ridders66

I have been told by a couple of people that when you sign up for a government grant to have a charger fitted at home, hidden in the small print is that your charger must be available for general use by members of the public.
I don't how how this would work, obviously you cannot be expected to stand the cost of others charging their cars at yours. But it does kind of make sense, in that the government need to get a charging network in place soon. And this could be their masterplan of having a network of chargers available for all to use. Interesting stuff.


----------



## GeeWhizRS

ridders66 said:


> I have been told by a couple of people that when you sign up for a government grant to have a charger fitted at home, hidden in the small print is that your charger must be available for general use by members of the public.


Don't think that would be right. I read through everything I was given at the time and there was nothing like that. There's also no mention in the government scheme https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...icle-homecharge-scheme-guidance-for-customers
Seems the scheme ends today (31/3/22) for "single-unit properties such as bungalows and detached, semi-detached or terraced housing" but remains open for people living in flats or rented accommodation.


----------



## Soul boy 68

ridders66 said:


> I have been told by a couple of people that when you sign up for a government grant to have a charger fitted at home, hidden in the small print is that your charger must be available for general use by members of the public.
> I don't how how this would work, obviously you cannot be expected to stand the cost of others charging their cars at yours. But it does kind of make sense, in that the government need to get a charging network in place soon. And this could be their masterplan of having a network of chargers available for all to use. Interesting stuff.


Let me get this right, when you sign up for a grant, am I expected to let members of the public use my own drive to charge their cars?


----------



## Soul boy 68

bidderman1969 said:


> I was in London yesterday, Harley Street, came across this....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 3 things, is this what's coming to the future streets of the UK, and am I the only one that can see serious lawsuits prevailing? a also, in the second pic (taken from google maps), this is what it was plugged into, a small socket, no meter or anything, just the socket, is the electric from the lamppost free?


I wonder what laws suits people could be at risk from? Common sense should see people walking around the lamp post.


----------



## Rob_Quads

Soul boy 68 said:


> I wonder what laws suits people could be at risk from? Common sense should see people walking around the lamp post.


Unfortunately presuming common sense isn't a reason for someone to not do something.

A valid one IMO is if that was plugged in during the night. If the lights in the area are not great a child could walk into that causing them to fall over.. unlikely but feasible.

The problem is what do you do - say all cables must be on the floor - then its a trip hazard. All cables must be on the floor and covered withe a cable cover - feasible.


----------



## GeeWhizRS

That driver either needs to park in the other direction so the car socket is adjacent to the charger (so the cable trails on the floor) or buy a longer cable. I can see traffic wardens issuing tickets for this sort of thing before long.


----------



## Andy from Sandy

I don't think it is allowed. Cars have to face direction of travel. The car is possibly setup for left hand drive where it would be parked on the other side of the road.


----------



## Rob_Quads

Andy from Sandy said:


> I don't think it is allowed. Cars have to face direction of travel. The car is possibly setup for left hand drive where it would be parked on the other side of the road.


Yeah it looks like its a one way road so either they get a longer cable or they don't use the charger IMO


----------



## Coops

Soul boy 68 said:


> Let me get this right, when you sign up for a grant, am I expected to let members of the public use my own drive to charge their cars?


I'll bob the EQC round tomorrow if that's ok, it'll be on around 30% so will need a good top up? Number 32 isn't it :lol:


----------



## Coops

Started doing these in London too:










If anything they are worse than the lamp post ones?

How does a driver in a wheelchair use this?


----------



## GeeWhizRS

Andy from Sandy said:


> I don't think it is allowed. Cars have to face direction of travel. The car is possibly setup for left hand drive where it would be parked on the other side of the road.


My charging flap is also on the drivers side.
I take your point about facing traffic, I can see that being an issue at night. Don't think that applies if you are in a parking bay though.


----------



## bidderman1969

Coops said:


> Started doing these in London too:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If anything they are worse than the lamp post ones?
> 
> How does a driver in a wheelchair use this?


god that's awful, as you say, not good for wheelchair users, and quite a trip hazard for others, also, again, there is no "meter" for it, are they free to use?


----------



## Coops

Update on my wiring fault, got brief summary from the tech who worked on it:



> Carried out Initial short test of vehicle, Found can-bus network short in DC/DC Converter. Carried out wiring checks from DC/DC Converter to can-bus network connection block, found short circuit in wiring.
> Traced short circuit to passenger side kick well, removed kick well panelling and found trapped wires behind panel. Removed wiring from behind panel and repaired. Refitted all removed parts, cleared fault memory and carried out final short test. Retested vehicle, all ok.


Read into that what you can. Sounds like perhaps some wiring been positioned wrong during manufacture maybe?


----------



## Andy from Sandy

Your passengers have been kicking in the well!

Wires frayed away as you say because of wrong positioning.


----------



## Andyblue

Hopefully that’ll have sorted it and no more issues with it :thumb:


----------



## Coops

Andy from Sandy said:


> Your passengers have been kicking in the well!
> 
> Wires frayed away as you say because of wrong positioning.


Certainly appears to be the case.



Andyblue said:


> Hopefully that'll have sorted it and no more issues with it :thumb:


Fingers crossed, so far so good.


----------



## Andy from Sandy

A new and possibly even better use for charging points on the Isle of Wight - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hampshire-61006816


----------



## Coops

EV still going really well. Liking the warmer weather and the battery is too.

Much Excel work recently over electricity tariffs as my EDF Fixed (15p per kwh) finishes at end of June. By default I'd be going onto their Standard Variable tariff which would be costing me an average of £265 per month.

Octopus.Go tariff provides 4 hours of 7.5p per kwh charging (or anything else in the house for that matter). I figure I'd get 75% of my charging done in that time frame with a small amount tripping over to their standard rate. On average I'll probably save about £65 per month so better in my pocket.

Contacted Octopus today - seamless. I'll switch to their standard on 1st July, then the same day I can change straight over to "Go".


----------



## RS3

Coops said:


> EV still going really well. Liking the warmer weather and the battery is too.
> 
> Much Excel work recently over electricity tariffs as my EDF Fixed (15p per kwh) finishes at end of June. By default I'd be going onto their Standard Variable tariff which would be costing me an average of £265 per month.
> 
> Octopus.Go tariff provides 4 hours of 7.5p per kwh charging (or anything else in the house for that matter). I figure I'd get 75% of my charging done in that time frame with a small amount tripping over to their standard rate. On average I'll probably save about £65 per month so better in my pocket.
> 
> Contacted Octopus today - seamless. I'll switch to their standard on 1st July, then the same day I can change straight over to "Go".


Ive gone from a predicted range of 206 miles in March to 296 miles now on my Enyaq. What a difference a bit of warmth makes.


----------



## Coops

Off to Devon at the end of next week, luckily the park has EV chargers on site (FOC but only about 4-5 kwh).

Although if I maxxed the charge on the EQC I'd get 215+ miles, it's 204 miles door to door so don't want to risk it, plus I'll be fully loaded including roof box. 

Planning a stop at Cribbs Causeway, Bristol. Got a good few options around there - Instavolt @ McDonalds, Mollie's Diner plus an MFG EV Power site with 16x 150kw chargers.

It's 120 miles to Cribbs, then another 80 onwards after that. So a good 30-45 min stop for food and charge will be just fine i reckon.


----------



## muzzer

Coops said:


> Off to Devon at the end of next week, luckily the park has EV chargers on site (FOC but only about 4-5 kwh).
> 
> Although if I maxxed the charge on the EQC I'd get 215+ miles, it's 204 miles door to door so don't want to risk it, plus I'll be fully loaded including roof box.
> 
> Planning a stop at Cribbs Causeway, Bristol. Got a good few options around there - Instavolt @ McDonalds, Mollie's Diner plus an MFG EV Power site with 16x 150kw chargers.
> 
> It's 120 miles to Cribbs, then another 80 onwards after that. So a good 30-45 min stop for food and charge will be just fine i reckon.


If i remember correctly, there are also chargers at the services just off the M4 junction, Gordano i think.


----------



## Coops

muzzer said:


> If i remember correctly, there are also chargers at the services just off the M4 junction, Gordano i think.


Yep there is. I use Zap Map so will keep an eye on things.

Trouble with Gordano is that it's quite popular and busy with holiday traffic at the best of times. Good for a backup though if my Cribbs ones fail!


----------



## Mikesphotaes

I bought an e-Niro!


----------



## Teamleader 21

Mikesphotaes said:


> I bought an e-Niro!


Welcome to the Club...


----------



## Coops

Mikesphotaes said:


> I bought an e-Niro!


Hey, nice one. What's the spec etc? When do you get it?


----------



## The Cueball

Got something to tide me over until the Ioniq5 arrives sometime Nov/Dec/Jan…













Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## muzzer

I saw one of those Ioniq 5's the other day, they are bigger than you think!


----------



## Teamleader 21

The Ioniq 6 looks nice.


----------



## Andyblue

Teamleader 21 said:


> The Ioniq 6 looks nice.


proper Porsche rear end on it 👍🏻


----------



## Mikesphotaes

Coops said:


> Hey, nice one. What's the spec etc? When do you get it?


Got at the end of Jan this year, all singing all dancing one with sun roof amongst other things!


----------



## Coops

@Cueball


The Cueball said:


> Got something to tide me over until the Ioniq5 arrives sometime Nov/Dec/Jan…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Er. Enjoy.


----------



## Coops

Did a 90% charge last night - 234 mile range this morning 

EDF tariff (15.93p per kwh) ended last night 

Changed over to Octopus standard tariff and have initiated the changeover to Octopus.Go tariff this morning. Once they've finished the switchover, I'll move to Go. Although that's 34p per kwh, the off peak is 7.5p per kwh (00:30 to 04:30) so car, dishwasher, washing machine, phone chargers etc will be assigned to come on at that time. Versus EDF's Standard Variable, I'll be saving around £50 to £65 per month.


----------



## muzzer

Teamleader 21 said:


> The Ioniq 6 looks nice.


If it comes to the market looking like that, i'll be surprised but agreed, it does look stunning and if i was in the market for an EV, that is certainly at the top end of the list


----------



## andy665

This apparently is the production version of the Ioniq6 - I think its awful, ill proportioned and the sloping back end is just a mess


----------



## Chrisdriving2

Nice to see more EV’s appearing on the roads, i started with a 30kWh Nissan Leaf back in August 2016, we got a second Leaf, a 40kWh in Jan 2020 but sold that one in Sept 2021 to get a Model 3, that is just awesome, still also have the original Leaf and it has been brilliant.


----------



## Coops

andy665 said:


> This apparently is the production version of the Ioniq6 - I think its awful, ill proportioned and the sloping back end is just a mess


What's with the double duck tail thing on the back end? 

Front kind of sweeps down the nose quite aggressively.

It's based on the IONIQ5 platform (GMP or something) so expect similar size to that I'd guess?


----------



## muzzer

From the side it reminds me of the Merc CLA


----------



## andy665

Coops said:


> What's with the double duck tail thing on the back end?
> 
> Front kind of sweeps down the nose quite aggressively.
> 
> It's based on the IONIQ5 platform (GMP or something) so expect similar size to that I'd guess?


Front 3/4 is not great - looks like the whole has been out in the sun too long and each end has melted - the concept was lovely so this is such a letdown


----------



## Coops

Meltdown 😂


----------



## muzzer

I think a darker colour and different wheels would suit it much better


----------



## nbray67

I've gone EV with work, mentioned earlier in this thread I think but that was an EQA 300 which I've now changed to a XC40 Twin Ultimate as it was cheaper monthly and specced to the hilt compared to the EQA. Oh, and 408bhp, no use to me sticking to sub 60mph to get the range!!
Delivery was supposedly Nov 22 but I think this may get pushed out to 2023.

Volvo are delivering me a demonstrator for 6 days at the end of the month where we have to drive from Nott's to Frome for the daughters wedding so it'll get a decent run and give me a good perspective of it's capabilities.


----------



## Andyblue

andy665 said:


> looks like the whole has been out in the sun too long and each end has melted l


😁😁 really like that description 👍🏻


----------



## Andyblue

nbray67 said:


> I've gone EV with work, mentioned earlier in this thread I think but that was an EQA 300 which I've now changed to a XC40 Twin Ultimate as it was cheaper monthly and specced to the hilt compared to the EQA. Oh, and 408bhp, no use to me sticking to sub 60mph to get the range!!
> Delivery was supposedly Nov 22 but I think this may get pushed out to 2023.
> 
> Volvo are delivering me a demonstrator for 6 days at the end of the month where we have to drive from Nott's to Frome for the daughters wedding so it'll get a decent run and give me a good perspective of it's capabilities.


nice 👍🏻

really liking mine…


----------



## nbray67

Andyblue said:


> nice 👍🏻
> 
> really liking mine…


So you have XC40 then Andy??? If so, which model and colour?
When did I miss that or are you talking about the EQA???


----------



## Andyblue

nbray67 said:


> So you have XC40 then Andy??? If so, which model and colour?
> When did I miss that or are you talking about the EQA???


Evening mate

yes XC40 in Bursting blue with black roof - R design

I’ll see if I can find a photo - might have the odd one 😆😆


----------



## Teamleader 21

Just a heads up for anyone around the York area. I used the Hyperhub at Monks Cross at the weekend which is run by York Council, they have capacity for 150kw charging and currently is free of charge.It's about 4miles from York centre.


----------



## Coops

Just come back from our longest trip in the EQC - Midlands to Exmouth, Devon. Door to door was 204 miles, so if I was driving on my own I reckon I could make it without charging but likely that I'd have nothing at destination, so with a roof box, 4 adults and fully loaded it was going to need a stop.

Car was fully charged to 100% before leaving showing an indicated range of 235 miles. That's based on previous driving so would be a tall order.










I decided that Bristol was a good place to recharge with plenty of options available around Cribbs Causeway - notably Instavolt @ McDonalds, MFG Power Hub @ Filton and Mollie's Diner identified as my targets and fall back options. Leaving the M5, we passed the McDonalds and it appeared the vast majority were in use so I plumped for the MFG Power Hub which is a couple of miles further back up, and I'm glad we did.

Instavolt chargers are ok, but are typically only 50kw whereas the MFG Power sites are much more. In fact this new site in Filton has 8x 150kw chargers!



















I think the EQC peaked at around 100kw and topped us back upto 100% in less than 25 minutes. IMO that's just the right amount of time required for a break - visit toilet, grab a coffee, grab some food etc.

We left there with a fully charged battery and continued our journey, arriving with just under 50% battery averaging approximately 2.5 miles per kWh; which I think is pretty fair considering the factors (fully loaded, roofbox etc)











There were FOC chargers are the park so we took full advantage and kept the car topped up, and took a full day out to Looe. Journey home was the same in reverse using MFG Power site again.


Overall, no issues with the journey. I'd planned the hell out of the chargers using Zap Map and in the end felt the MFG site to be much more akin to a quick charge and rest.


----------



## Coops

I've now completed the switch over to Octopus.Go smart tariff, and now have 4 hours of super cheap 7.5p per kWh charging from 0030 to 0430.

Put 29.3 kWh last night/this morning for £2.58 (think some may have tripped over into the standard tariff)

It doesn't quite give me the 100 mile commute so I'll have to spend the next week or so monitoring and adjusting. However the default will be for the car to be plugged in and charged each night regardless.


----------



## Chrisdriving2

Octopus also do a tariff called Go Faster that gives you 5 hours at cheap rate, and you can choose the time slot among options given.
Here is mine, i chose 8.30pm to 01.30am, been on this for 2 years and price has never gone up, (thankfully ) .


----------



## Chrisdriving2

Example of a cheap day out, we left our home in Poole to go to Otter Nurseries in Ottery St Mary, Devon, a 64 mile trip each way.
Took the Leaf left home on 100% and arrived at Otter on 45% so 55% used (about 15kWh) which cost me about 80p on Go Faster cheap rate.
Charged for free ( thank you Otter nurseries) back up to 95% so had a free ride home.
So a round 128 mile trip cost us less than a quid in (fuel).
Loving electric.


----------



## Coops

Go Faster isn't compatible with my car and home charger (for whatever reason) otherwise for sure I'd be on that. It's a very good tariff.

Seems very restricted to Tesla models only at the minute.


----------



## Chrisdriving2

Hmm thats odd, i see no reason for that and know of many people using it.
For reference i have an old style Pod point charge unit from 2016 and just had the Leaf when we originally went to Octopus on their Agile tariff and later on Go Faster.
We chose the cheap rate from 8.30pm so we can make use of other appliances during the evening while still up.

i know Intelligent Octopus tariff is more specific to car/charge unit and that gives 6 hours.









Octopus Energy


The UK's most awarded energy supplier. We're doing energy better - for you and the environment.




octopus.energy


----------



## Coops

Chrisdriving2 said:


> Hmm thats odd, i see no reason for that and know of many people using it.
> For reference i have an old style Pod point charge unit from 2016 and just had the Leaf when we originally went to Octopus on their Agile tariff and later on Go Faster.
> We chose the cheap rate from 8.30pm so we can make use of other appliances during the evening while still up.
> 
> i know Intelligent Octopus tariff is more specific to car/charge unit and that gives 6 hours.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Octopus Energy
> 
> 
> The UK's most awarded energy supplier. We're doing energy better - for you and the environment.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> octopus.energy


Ah it's Intelligent I'm getting confused with (probably, it's been a long week!)

Looking again on Octopus, there are Go Faster tariffs:

4H from 0130
4H from 0230
4H from 2130
4H from 2230
4H from 2320
5H from 0030
5H from 0130
5H from 2130
5H from 2230
5H from 2330

Not sure whether they are selling these at present tho, I might have to contact them. Actually a 5 hour one would suit be slightly better for the reasons above.


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## Chrisdriving2

Good stuff, the extra hour will help you for sure and of course an earlier start time.
Maybe worth giving them a call as you say.
Hopefully it could be of help to you.


----------



## nbray67

@Coops 

Advice if you can please pal on what EV Charger App/Map you use, do I need to register an account beforehand or can you simply pay by card? Oh, and any route tips if you know that route, seems similar to your Exmouth route although we leave the M5 at Jct 15 to take the M4.

Volvo are dropping off a XC40 Twin Ultimate for me next Fri for a few days as we travel down on the Sunday from Doncaster to Frome for our daughters wedding, 232 miles, range is 260 but I'd envisage sub 200ish as we'll have 5 adults in the car, ltd luggage other than suits/dresses.

I take it charging mid point is the best way so I revert back to 100% from say, 30-50% and then same again on the rtn journey???

TIA pal as it'll be the 1st time in an EV.


----------



## Coops

nbray67 said:


> @Coops
> 
> Advice if you can please pal on what EV Charger App/Map you use, do I need to register an account beforehand or can you simply pay by card? Oh, and any route tips if you know that route, seems similar to your Exmouth route although we leave the M5 at Jct 15 to take the M4.
> 
> Volvo are dropping off a XC40 Twin Ultimate for me next Fri for a few days as we travel down on the Sunday from Doncaster to Frome for our daughters wedding, 232 miles, range is 260 but I'd envisage sub 200ish as we'll have 5 adults in the car, ltd luggage other than suits/dresses.
> 
> I take it charging mid point is the best way so I revert back to 100% from say, 30-50% and then same again on the rtn journey???
> 
> TIA pal as it'll be the 1st time in an EV.


Of course.

Most chargers these days accept contactless payment so you don't need an account beforehand. I use Zap Map alot as it shows real time availability of charge points.

A good route planner to use is ABRP as you can drop vehicle information into it along with other data such as state of charge on departure, SOC on arrival, efficiency etc and it'll show a probable route and where to charge. It's a bit of a faff as you need to know a lot of info about your vehicle to get the best results which you may not have or know.

In terms of a route, it looks quite straightforward to me: M18 -> M1 -> A42 -> M42 -> M5 -> M4 -> A46 to Bath then to Frome.

Not sure the range of the XC40 but it looks quite similar to mine so let's assume, given the 5 adults and luggage, a realistic 200 mile range. You're going to need rapid / ultra-rapid so 50kw plus to keep the waiting time down. 

50 miles in - Gridserve @ Donington Park Services M1/M42 (probably too soon)
100 miles in - Gridserve @ Hopwood Park Services M42
150 miles in - Gridserve @ Gloucester Services M5
180 miles in - MGF Power @ Filton (ones I used on my trip)

I presume the car will come with a good range already in but you never know. If it doesn't you'll need to adjust the plan.

Hope this helps. Take a look at Zap Map as a starter and see what there is on route. You can filter by the speed of the connector so adjust for Rapid and you'll get the 50kw+ ones.

Give me a shout if you need anything else.


----------



## Teamleader 21

Same here, I have a free subscription for 6 months for BP Pulse only used it once since beginning of May, so i don't think i'll keep it up after the 6 months run out, mainly as when I've needed to charge it's usually contactless and there weren't any BP chargers in the area. The good thing about the apps which show you the state of the chargers at the time. One of the drawbacks is when chargers are placed in car parks which you have to search for and also if the chargers are in use whether you can get enough charge in the time allowed you have left in the car park ie you enter a car park with 3hrs free parking (no return within 1hr), you have to wait 1hr until a charger becomes free is the 2hrs long enough? As Coops mentioned try and get the highest rated your car will take. I mentioned in an earlier post the Hyper Hub at York which is seperate to the car park so there's no problems there, funny though that in the car park itself at Monks Cross there are a raft of chargers which haven't been working for a long time which doesn't look good. 2nd Zap Map also WattsUp can be useful.


----------



## NickP

We're off to the French Alps in ours on Friday (Eurotunnel permitting!) from what I understand the French Tesla network is pretty good, so hopefully should be a painless trip...


----------



## Coops

Chrisdriving2 said:


> Good stuff, the extra hour will help you for sure and of course an earlier start time.
> Maybe worth giving them a call as you say.
> Hopefully it could be of help to you.


I now have the option for a 5H Go Faster. It would be 8.25p/kWh for 5 hours. On a full 5 hour top up it would be an extra 79p!

Just waiting for them to confirm whether my standard rate of 34.43p/kWh would remain the same.


----------



## Coops

@nbray67 - how did the Volvo and the trip go, oh and the wedding?

@NickP - hopefully the trip is going ok.


----------



## nbray67

Coops said:


> @nbray67 - how did the Volvo and the trip go, oh and the wedding?


Hi pal.

The wedding was spot on, gorgeous weather Sun eve when we arrived after travelling thru torrential rain followed by beaut 27c weather on the Mon which was the wedding day. Sweated my little ones off in a 3pce suit!!

The trip was ok but the infrastructure needs improving one hell of a lot. Stopped off and charged at Gloucester Sevices, Gridserve chargers, 60kw set up with 2 sets of leads. Unfortunately, there was a queue and if 2 cars were plugged into the same chargepoint, only 1 would work. 48p per kw here and slowish charging.

Wasted a hour here but it gave us enough charge to get to Frome and potter about. Charged up at a local BP Pulse 150kw chargepoint at 55p per kw, that was superb but for some reason, despite the car being set to 100% charge limit, it shut off at 85% while we were sat in Costa. Also, the payment display screen is so small, it's hard to read it and kept rejecting my contactless card.

Rtn journey was ok, stopped Gloucester services again as the wife need the loo, same as the southbound services, 60kw charger here but got straight onto one. 30min charge to get us home from there.

I need to seriously get my head around the charging maps for long journeys, which will be few and far between, but I need to look into it more. The Volvo consumption/range screens are not the best but ok.

37kwh per 100miles is what it read when we got home, not sure at all if that's decent or not, as I say, I need to get my head in it and around it when the new car arrives towards the end of the year.


----------



## Coops

Glad it all went ok 

I can sympathise over the infrastructure. Had a similar experience at Donington Park Services - everything was hunky dory until 3 other cars turned up and dragged my charge speed down 

World needs more of the super quick chargers like that BP Pulse one you used and the MFG ones I used in Bristol. The screens on the MFG ones were great but yes some of them seem to have the smallest screens ever known to man. In terms of contactless, my card was rejected on our return journey to MFG, but I've found that after "so many" contactless transactions the card needs to be validated with a PIN so that could be the reason.

37kwh per 100 miles = 2.7 miles per kWh which isn't bad at all considering you were fully loaded. My EQC averaged 2.5 with roof box and 4 adults in.

The terminology and mathematics around EV ownership is mind boggling at times. I spend most of my driving time working out my consumption, how much I'll finish with, what I'll have the next day etc etc.


----------



## The Cueball

Liked the blue Tesla so much, I changed it for a Grey one...

Still no Ioniq delivery date... I'll be getting the new 2026 version at this rate.. :lol:


----------



## NickP

Coops said:


> @NickP - hopefully the trip is going ok.


Yes, all went very smoothly, topped up at the Eurotunnel before crossing, then 3 charges before a final top up to make sure we had plenty of charge for the week, network over there seems very good, the majority of places we stopped at had 12 to16 Chargers and all 250kw/h, majority were almost empty when we were there, the only time we saw any congestion was on the way back at one of the stops which only had 6 chargers, there were 2 free when I arrived but by the time we left there were 2 cars waiting including a Dutch chap who was towing a small caravan with his model Y, which he had to unhitch before he could reverse in and charge! 
All in all I think we did around 1,600 miles in 7 days - pleasantly stress free.
Because we were up in the Alps one thing the was quite surprising, was that you'd put a destination 20 miles away in and it would show you arriving with more charge than you started with due to the regeneration - obviously used a lot more when going up though!


----------



## Teamleader 21

One thing that has had me thinking regarding my EV is the consideration of where I live in relation to my parents who are now getting on a bit and not in the best of health. So should anything happen to them and I need to get to them quickish I'll need to have enough charge to get me there. Obviously I have a home charger but that might not be quick enough or I could end up looking at a rapid charger, again would I be waiting until one becomes available if some points are in use? Not ideal and hopefully they'll keep going for a few years yet and the infrastucture is in a better position when they do get poorly, I suppose I'll have to ask them to try and give me a bit of notice!


----------



## Starbuck88

@nbray67 Did you work out how much it cost per mile? Would be very interested to see those figures.


----------



## nbray67

Starbuck88 said:


> @nbray67 Did you work out how much it cost per mile? Would be very interested to see those figures.


Unfortunately not buddy. I really should've made a true note of charge costs both at home and on the road.
It cost us approx £70 and we covered just shy of 500miles and sent the car back with 60% charge.

With the increase in electricity prices forecasted into next year and the HMRC still only paying 5p per mile for EV business use, I may well be cancelling my Volvo if work and the HMRC don't do something about the ever increasing electricity costs v the pence per mile business mileage claim.


----------



## Coops

I've flagged this to our Finance Director around the 5p per mile, and fortunately he's also an EV driver so understands. The problem, I believe, is that anything over 5p could be construed as a benefit in kind, so subject to further tax. However, in terms of company car fuel benefit charges, electricity is NOT classed as a fuel by HMRC. 

To give an example of the disparity between petrol/diesel and EV fuel claims, if I did a 150 mile journey would mean I’d be able to reclaim *£7.50* for the trip (£0.05 per mile).

The cost to replenish that 150 miles depends on two factors:

how and where I can recharge my EV – either at home or a public charge station
the efficiency of my car - for EV’s this is typically between 2.5 and 3.0 miles per kwh, and would mean anything between 50 and 60 kWh required to replenish
If I charge at home at 28p per kWh then the cost is between £16.80 (2.5 mpkwh) and £14.00 (3.0 mpkwh). Public charging is much more expensive so looking at £35.40 and £29.50 if it's 59p per kwh.

Even at a high efficiency, you're only able to reclaim approx 54% of the cost of the journey. At the worst case, where you don't have a home charger, you'd only reclaim 21% of the cost of the journey.

Compare and contrast this to the equivalent journey in a diesel @ 50 mpg, with a reclaim rate of 16p per mile. You would be able to reclaim £24.00 for the same journey, and with the current average diesel cost of 193p per litre, it would cost £26.32 to refuel. However they are reclaiming over 90% of the cost.

Clearly we can make the numbers show whatever we want, but what I’m trying to demonstrate is the apparent disconnect between what petrol/diesel drivers can claim versus what EV drivers can claim; 91% of cost vs 21% of cost.


----------



## andy665

It's all well and good all these charging tariffs, a quick charge en route - I nay be old school but what a faff.

Come up to The Lakes on Saturday, started with a full tank of fuel. 

Drove up (150 miles) with no stop, been driving around since and still less than half a tank of fuel used, not thought about topping up - its a complete non issue for me

EV just does not work for my mindset - I don't want to have to plan, just get in and drive


----------



## muzzer

To be fair though, most of the electric cars for sale in the uk could have driven up to the lakes without needing to stop, some of them - Tesla Model S for example - could do the driving about bit too and potentially part of the journey back.
But let's take something that is clearly daft, Audi's RS e-tron GT, and even that can do around 250 miles on one charge. Granted you'll have to charge it again before the journey home but my Kia Sportage Diesel would need filling up again to get from here - 40 miles north of London - to The Lakes and back again, it cannot do more than 375 to a tank realistically.
If you look at it like that, then a useable 250 mile range on elastictrickery isn't that bad in the grand scheme of things. And if you went for the long range Model S, it could do 3/4's of the journey before needing to be charged again.

I do like ICE cars but the tipping point when electric cars can do the same journey just as efficiently is rapidly approaching


----------



## andy665

muzzer said:


> To be fair though, most of the electric cars for sale in the uk could have driven up to the lakes without needing to stop, some of them - Tesla Model S for example - could do the driving about bit too and potentially part of the journey back.
> But let's take something that is clearly daft, Audi's RS e-tron GT, and even that can do around 250 miles on one charge. Granted you'll have to charge it again before the journey home but my Kia Sportage Diesel would need filling up again to get from here - 40 miles north of London - to The Lakes and back again, it cannot do more than 375 to a tank realistically.
> If you look at it like that, then a useable 250 mile range on elastictrickery isn't that bad in the grand scheme of things. And if you went for the long range Model S, it could do 3/4's of the journey before needing to be charged again.
> 
> I do like ICE cars but the tipping point when electric cars can do the same journey just as efficiently is rapidly approaching


Audis in particular seem to be very poor in cost v range equation, the 535d has real world range of 600 miles

I won't need to refuel this week and if I choose to then its exactly that - choice rather than necessity.

Being up here shows how poor the charging infrastructure is. Was talking yesterday to a bloke with a Model Y and he said it's been a nightmare whilst he is on holiday. Only one car park we have been to has had a charge point and that was not operational

EV might be improving but for me and how I use my car the tipping point is still a fair way off - I refuse to compromise or be dictated to by the cars powertrain. Yes, the charging infrastructure is improving but being outstripped by the growth in the number of EVs hitting the road.

Only thing that would see me going EV currently would be if it was a company car as the BIK makes it a financial no brainer


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## muzzer

I only quoted the Audi as i've seen several reviews by people who's opinion i would trust who say a useable real world range is 250 miles, the manufacturer claims 290. Ultimately they are getting better range wise and the choice of style of vehicle is changing too, the Rivian T1 pickup for example can do over 400 miles on one charge but you really have to like the looks of it and pickups in general.
Nobody is forcing you to have one but my point is still valid, the time when electric vehicles can do the same journey as an ICE car is rapidly approaching


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## Coops

We really are on the brink of battery and car technology now - the ranges will increase, the batteries will become lighter, charging will become more efficient etc, but I do understand that for "some" people it won't work now. However as we advance that "some" will greatly reduce.


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## Coops

andy665 said:


> Only thing that would see me going EV currently would be if it was a company car as the BIK makes it a financial no brainer


The majority are company cars are the minute I suspect.


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## Coops

andy665 said:


> Audis in particular seem to be very poor in cost v range equation, the 535d has real world range of 600 miles


The push for diesel meant that manufacturers developed engines with super range capabilities and I think the push for EV will also equally push the boundaries. Just take a look at the EQXX concept from Mercedes.


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## Peirre

Why do EV charging bays have to be so close to the building, wether that is a supermarket, office or other, closer in fact than disabled and mother and children bays?
My bosses have recently installed 6 EV charging bays in the carpark at work and used the 6 bays closest to the building, yet there was multiple other places with power that they could have used to site the EV bays in a carpark that holds 100’s of cars. 
I can go to any local site and all of them have EV points close to the building, yet there’s infrastructure in the carpark to site the EV points anywhere in that carpark without any major extra cost


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## muzzer

Coops said:


> The push for diesel meant that manufacturers developed engines with super range capabilities and I think the push for EV will also equally push the boundaries. Just take a look at the EQXX concept from Mercedes.



Or the EQS 450+ which has a real world range of 390 miles. Okay, it's a tad expensive for the average person but then so are Tesla's, e-Tron's, Taycan's and the like but even so, that is pretty close to a 400mile real world range and that is impressive and imho it's not a bad looking car either. Just a shame the interior is hideous.


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## Coops

Peirre said:


> Why do EV charging bays have to be so close to the building, wether that is a supermarket, office or other, closer in fact than disabled and mother and children bays?
> My bosses have recently installed 6 EV charging bays in the carpark at work and used the 6 bays closest to the building, yet there was multiple other places with power that they could have used to site the EV bays in a carpark that holds 100’s of cars.
> I can go to any local site and all of them have EV points close to the building, yet there’s infrastructure in the carpark to site the EV points anywhere in that carpark without any major extra cost


I don't know the detail behind electrical installations but suspect it'll be something to do with running 3 phase power. Cable is expensive. We budget £3k for a EV charger install at work (2x sockets) - move that out any distance across a car park and not only do you have cable but also groundworks to consider.


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## Coops

muzzer said:


> Or the EQS 450+ which has a real world range of 390 miles. Okay, it's a tad expensive for the average person but then so are Tesla's, e-Tron's, Taycan's and the like but even so, that is pretty close to a 400mile real world range and that is impressive and imho it's not a bad looking car either. Just a shame the interior is hideous.


Yep the ranges are only going to increase aren't they. Even though my EQC is only 6 months old (the model range itself about 18 months old), it's probably already out of date.


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## Andyblue

Coops said:


> Yep the ranges are only going to increase aren't they. Even though my EQC is only 6 months old (the model range itself about 18 months old), it's probably already out of date.


And I think this is one of the major stumbling blocks for people wanting to buy / own one - the potential for the technology to do a big leap over the short term or continually taking significant steps, are you going to be owning a vehicle that has lost a significant amount of money / difficult to sell as the technology has jumped - apart from the excessive costs to actually buy one in the first place…


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## Chrisdriving2

Some of this makes me chuckle, had a 30kWh Leaf since 2016 when charging infrastructure was really poor( granted less EVs then) with a realistic 100miles range and managed.
I find it amusing that people with cars such as the Model Y which is only available as an LR or performance version so plenty of range and a vastly improved charge network are having issues.


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## Starbuck88

muzzer said:


> I only quoted the Audi as i've seen several reviews by people who's opinion i would trust who say a useable real world range is 250 miles, the manufacturer claims 290. Ultimately they are getting better range wise and the choice of style of vehicle is changing too, the Rivian T1 pickup for example can do over 400 miles on one charge but you really have to like the looks of it and pickups in general.
> Nobody is forcing you to have one but my point is still valid, the time when electric vehicles can do the same journey as an ICE car is rapidly approaching


Is the Rivian coming to the UK now? In the last (or one before it) TopGear said it wasn't ever coming to the UK. I am not a pick up person but do think occasionally they are useful but I saw them let ewan and charley have a pair of prototypes for their latest 'long way' series where they did a journey on electric harleys and they seemed like a cool outfit.


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## muzzer

Starbuck88 said:


> Is the Rivian coming to the UK now? In the last (or one before it) TopGear said it wasn't ever coming to the UK. I am not a pick up person but do think occasionally they are useful but I saw them let ewan and charley have a pair of prototypes for their latest 'long way' series where they did a journey on electric harleys and they seemed like a cool outfit.



Officially? I don’t know, i think if you wanted one you would have to import it but i was watching one of Chicago Auto Pros videos on the Rivian, the build quality is very very good so it wouldn’t be such a bad vehicle.


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## nbray67

Coops said:


> I've flagged this to our Finance Director around the 5p per mile, and fortunately he's also an EV driver so understands. The problem, I believe, is that anything over 5p could be construed as a benefit in kind, so subject to further tax. However, in terms of company car fuel benefit charges, electricity is NOT classed as a fuel by HMRC.
> 
> To give an example of the disparity between petrol/diesel and EV fuel claims, if I did a 150 mile journey would mean I’d be able to reclaim *£7.50* for the trip (£0.05 per mile).
> 
> The cost to replenish that 150 miles depends on two factors:
> 
> how and where I can recharge my EV – either at home or a public charge station
> the efficiency of my car - for EV’s this is typically between 2.5 and 3.0 miles per kwh, and would mean anything between 50 and 60 kWh required to replenish
> If I charge at home at 28p per kWh then the cost is between £16.80 (2.5 mpkwh) and £14.00 (3.0 mpkwh). Public charging is much more expensive so looking at £35.40 and £29.50 if it's 59p per kwh.
> 
> Even at a high efficiency, you're only able to reclaim approx 54% of the cost of the journey. At the worst case, where you don't have a home charger, you'd only reclaim 21% of the cost of the journey.
> 
> Compare and contrast this to the equivalent journey in a diesel @ 50 mpg, with a reclaim rate of 16p per mile. You would be able to reclaim £24.00 for the same journey, and with the current average diesel cost of 193p per litre, it would cost £26.32 to refuel. However they are reclaiming over 90% of the cost.
> 
> Clearly we can make the numbers show whatever we want, but what I’m trying to demonstrate is the apparent disconnect between what petrol/diesel drivers can claim versus what EV drivers can claim; 91% of cost vs 21% of cost.


Our company are going to review this also but as you say, HMRC at 5p per mile is what's making the whole EV car scheme pretty non viable for employees.

Unbelievably, the Govt want us all out of petrol/diesel cars and into EV's but strangle the mileage claim expenditure for those that do make the switch.

I'll let you know which way our company go in terms of 'reducing the cost implications' to employees but at this rate, as I said, I'll simply cancel the XC40 and look at other options on the company car scheme but then I'm into the increase PUC. Caught between a rock and hard place at the moment. The only good thing is that the EV orders keep getting pushed back in terms of delivery dates so I get to run my business use only car for nothing.


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## andy665

nbray67 said:


> Our company are going to review this also but as you say, HMRC at 5p per mile is what's making the whole EV car scheme pretty non viable for employees.
> 
> Unbelievably, the Govt want us all out of petrol/diesel cars and into EV's but strangle the mileage claim expenditure for those that do make the switch.
> 
> I'll let you know which way our company go in terms of 'reducing the cost implications' to employees but at this rate, as I said, I'll simply cancel the XC40 and look at other options on the company car scheme but then I'm into the increase PUC. Caught between a rock and hard place at the moment. The only good thing is that the EV orders keep getting pushed back in terms of delivery dates so I get to run my business use only car for nothing.


But surely BIK at 2% more than offsets the 5p per mile - massively skewed in favour of EV at the moment as an overall package


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## nbray67

andy665 said:


> But surely BIK at 2% more than offsets the 5p per mile - massively skewed in favour of EV at the moment as an overall package


I'm currently pay nothing in a business use vehicle. Never wanted a company vehicle due to the taxation and although I begrudge it, I was resigned to paying circa £150 per mth for the personal use of a car but the 5p per mile for business miles is laughable when the price of electric is so high and set to rise again and again in 2023.

I'm going from zero expenditure to do my job to paying quite a hefty chunk to do the same job.

Just waiting on what our company are going to do in relation the ever increasing electric prices before I look at other options, Hybrid or cash benefit and fund my own car choice via this.


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## Teamleader 21

The local Tesco has had free charging points for EV's for people shopping with Tesco, this has now changed to chargeable use because of people and staff using the points for the maximum parking time (3hrs) and in some cases longer (if you have a permit issued for work). It would seem that some cars have been charging for consecutive days which stops genuine customers using the facility.


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## Coops

I believe the majority of Tesco stores with EV chargers are stopping them being FOC with them flipping over to 28p per kwh (which isn't a bad rate to be fair).

There is a small Asda near me which has 2x FOC 7kw chargers and the same cars are constantly on them - there are no parking restrictions so they leave them there all day on charge.

The idea was for customers to use them to top up whilst shopping (longer they leave on charge, the probability that they'll spend more in the shop, certainly in Tesco case) but clearly they had some being abused especially where they are close to housing estates or other businesses.


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## Ali racing green

Our driving is now mostly with EVs. A Jag IPace, my new to me Smart EQ ForTwo (not even driven it properly yet) and the Renault Twizy, which is used on the farm. Also got an electric motorbike for the farm.

All I can say is that the driving experience is better in every way, we are saving lots of money and they ‘fuel’ our interest for new tech.


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## The Cueball

The Cueball said:


> Liked the blue Tesla so much, I changed it for a Grey one...
> 
> Still no Ioniq delivery date... I'll be getting the new 2026 version at this rate.. :lol:


Back to a blue Tesla for the next few months…

Still waiting on Hyundai… :wall:

Sent a few emails off to try and pick up any cancelled Audi E-tron GT things too..


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Coops

The Cueball said:


> Back to a blue Tesla for the next few months…
> 
> Still waiting on Hyundai… :wall:
> 
> Sent a few emails off to try and pick up any cancelled Audi E-tron GT things too..
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Delivery leadtimes are still truly crap aren't they. Couple of mates still waiting on their Audi EVs - one of which is nearly 20 months now.

Just added the Hyundai onto our car list, but the leadtime just says TBC


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## Chrisdriving2

I am liking the new MG4, i think it looks great.


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## stevie211

Chrisdriving2 said:


> I am liking the new MG4, i think it looks great.


Should have a test drive as it drives really nice too.
Got mine on order and hope to have it before christmas.


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## Chrisdriving2

stevie211 said:


> Should have a test drive as it drives really nice too.
> Got mine on order and hope to have it before christmas.


Thanks, i am hearing good things about it and the way it drives. Will visit local dealer soon.


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## The Cueball

Coops said:


> Delivery leadtimes are still truly crap aren't they. Couple of mates still waiting on their Audi EVs - one of which is nearly 20 months now.
> 
> Just added the Hyundai onto our car list, but the leadtime just says TBC


Yeah they are… I just laugh now every time the Hyundai update comes through….

ETA - sometime this century..maybe… we’re not quite sure though.

Mind you, if they take any longer, I’ll just refuse it and demand a ‘23 spec car, may as well wait for them now…

:thumb:


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## Taxboy

Is anyone driving a hybrid or are they the worst of all worlds? I'm thinking about changing my diesel as the majority of my trips are under 50 miles but I do have elderly relatives whose health is not great about 150 miles away so wouldn't want to have to sit and wait whilst I charged the car on the dash across country 

Sent from my moto g(7) plus using Tapatalk


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## BrummyPete

Taxboy said:


> Is anyone driving a hybrid or are they the worst of all worlds? I'm thinking about changing my diesel as the majority of my trips are under 50 miles but I do have elderly relatives whose health is not great about 150 miles away so wouldn't want to have to sit and wait whilst I charged the car on the dash across country
> 
> Sent from my moto g(7) plus using Tapatalk


My Dad has a Toyota CHR hybrid for 4 years now, around town its ridiculously good on fuel/battery, have worked it out to do around 80mpg, on longer runs its considerably less unless you sit at around 50mph, hybrids benefit from regen braking and slow driving, as a town car amazing, for longer stuff its poo


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## Teamleader 21

I wonder what the VED will be for Electric cars in the Governments statement later this week?


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## Chrisdriving2

Was brought in for over 40k ones couple years ago then that was cancelled and moved to 2025.
What they do on Thurs will be interesting but its certainly coming which is fair.


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