# Aberdeen Detailing Course - Thank You



## JenJen (Jun 30, 2010)

Hey,

To Steve, thank you so much for travelling all the way up  & thank you to everyone that came along today braving the cold weather. It was lovely to meet everyone and hopefully see you all soon.

Too everyone travelling long distance hope this finds you at home safe and sound.

Jen x


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## cotter (Aug 31, 2008)

Was a very informative and enjoyable day. Thanks Jen for arranging premises, and Steve for travelling so far. Was great to meet more new faces, and have a good laugh. 

Think there'll be a lot of us placing orders for a certain polish set in the next few days lol

And to those who couldn't make it, you missed Jens baps.... :lol:


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## Ben_ZS (Sep 28, 2008)

Any pics of the day?

Cold weather?


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## cotter (Aug 31, 2008)

Cold all right Ben, turned really sharp later in the afternoon. 

I didn't take any pics, but I'm sure some of the others will have.


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## Steve Burnett (Apr 21, 2009)

Thanks, to Steve and Jen.


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## Ben_ZS (Sep 28, 2008)

cotter said:


> Cold all right Ben, turned really sharp later in the afternoon.
> 
> I didn't take any pics, but I'm sure some of the others will have.


Thought you scots could handle the cold? 

Must have been more than this turn up.


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## Steve Burnett (Apr 21, 2009)

We were all a bit cold (you know, from wearing our kilts), so we went chasing after some haggis. That warmed us all up.


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## JenJen (Jun 30, 2010)

Heehee it wasnt that cold. I had on flip flops and SteveH had on shorts! but it was nippy nearer the end of the day.

I know SteveH got some pics but im assuming he is catching up with family as he drove all the way home after the course and some driving to Orkney and near Largs after a pretty long day.

Im hoping CB has some pics of the TT we did, looked shiny and on my way to spending some cash on a new system which ill be testing out on the RS6 and the S2000 of Paul's (gent that lent us his garage - turned out nothing in life is for free lol)


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## rossdook (Aug 20, 2008)

I thought it was f***ing tropical! Lol
Even the lah-de-dah jacket just got a token outing later on...Always good to see other folks working and meeting more folks with the same mindset. My new car is in the garage awaiting another wash after driving it home!


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## Drew (Apr 12, 2006)

Thanks to Steve and Jen. Good day had. Would go again to another course. 

Can anyone tell me where I can buy the Scholl A15+ and Spider pad?


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## Steve Burnett (Apr 21, 2009)

Steve said he got his stuff from Shinerama. I'd try there.


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## Eazy (Jun 16, 2007)

autobrite has it also


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## Kes (Mar 4, 2010)

*Feedback*

Hi guys,
Thanks to Jen and Steve for organising the course.
I just wanted to leave some feedback too. Although I learnt a lot, I felt the day should have had some structure as we didn't get much done. Most of the time was spent talking as opposed to hands on. 
The other point is I thought our test/demo car would have been a scrap/mot failure or something with little value. I felt uncomfortable, and I know others did too, being a newbie using a rotary on someone's pride and joy. After using the rotary, the owner of the car pointed out an area on the bootlid where paint had come away (on a corner). I felt really bad for one damaging someone else's car and two not even realising at the time as I though the marks were already there from before, until he pointed it out to me. That definitely put a damper on my day and put me off machining any further.


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## Bill58 (Jul 5, 2010)

Thanks to Steve and Jen for a great day yesterday. It was great meeting others from on here. Hopefully someone will post a few pictures with us wearing our kilts!


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## cotter (Aug 31, 2008)

rossdook said:


> I thought it was f***ing tropical! Lol
> Even the lah-de-dah jacket just got a token outing later on...Always good to see other folks working and meeting more folks with the same mindset. My new car is in the garage awaiting another wash after driving it home!


Drop me a note of your email Ross, and I'll send up the pics of your car for the 30 seconds it was clean before you drove off :thumb:


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## rossdook (Aug 20, 2008)

Lol will do pal. Cheers!


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## Alan W (May 11, 2006)

That's a very nice gesture Gordon and I hope Kes takes you up on it. :thumb:

Alan W


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## DE 1981 (Aug 17, 2007)

Kes said:


> Hi guys,
> Thanks to Jen and Steve for organising the course.
> I just wanted to leave some feedback too. Although I learnt a lot, I felt the day should have had some structure as we didn't get much done. Most of the time was spent talking as opposed to hands on.
> The other point is I thought our test/demo car would have been a scrap/mot failure or something with little value. I felt uncomfortable, and I know others did too, being a newbie using a rotary on someone's pride and joy. After using the rotary, the owner of the car pointed out an area on the bootlid where paint had come away (on a corner). I felt really bad for one damaging someone else's car and two not even realising at the time as I though the marks were already there from before, until he pointed it out to me. That definitely put a damper on my day and put me off machining any further.


Kes,

A very honest and heartfelt post there, I would however say that I'm truly amazed that beginners were allowed to work on anything other than scrap panels or an old demo car, I also find it amazing that somebody actually offered up their car to use at such an event.

I would urge you to take up Gordons kind offer and I'm confident that your skills and confidence will quickly grow in Gordons hands.


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## Dave KG (Feb 23, 2006)

Kes said:


> Hi guys,
> Thanks to Jen and Steve for organising the course.
> I just wanted to leave some feedback too. Although I learnt a lot, I felt the day should have had some structure as we didn't get much done. Most of the time was spent talking as opposed to hands on.
> The other point is I thought our test/demo car would have been a scrap/mot failure or something with little value. I felt uncomfortable, and I know others did too, being a newbie using a rotary on someone's pride and joy. After using the rotary, the owner of the car pointed out an area on the bootlid where paint had come away (on a corner). I felt really bad for one damaging someone else's car and two not even realising at the time as I though the marks were already there from before, until he pointed it out to me. That definitely put a damper on my day and put me off machining any further.


Accidents happen, Kes, especially when you are learning - do not let the mishap put you off machine polishing for life. It is always best, in my very humble opinion, to start off the learning process on scrap cars or panels and learn basic machine control first before thinking about correction - get yourself a scrap panel, pick the machine back up and get a feel for how the machine works in terms of control over flats, contours, sides etc and build your confidence. Like learning how to drive, you have to find your feet and learn to control the car before you start mixing it with busy traffic on the M25! Your confidence will grow, learn from the mistakes, develop your techniques - ask questions about mistakes, how to avoid things going wrong, there are always people who will be around to help.


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## Mirror Finish Details (Aug 21, 2008)

Ok lets get some perspective here.

I asked Kes and his friend several times if they were happy to carry on and they said yes on several occasions. They stated to me that they had *experience of using a rotary* and were happy to use the Scholl A15 polish on the car and learn a new technique. He did not seem to want to follow the others with some DA work then rotary. So I was happy to let them carry on and come back to them every now 5 mins or so to see how they were getting on.

Compared to the other guys who were firing questions all the time which I was happy to answer.

One of the valeter guys there was also offering a bit of mentoring as he had experience so with Jen who is an awsome polisher we easily had a 1:3 coverage for the course of people with experience to trainees. Much like the courses I run in Manchester.

I followed them all the way round the car, and at the time they were happy to carry on. If you want to talk about negativity then they must have known they nicked the bumper with the machine, easily done. I have had people do it before but they usually say what is this. Yes we usualy use older cars but Kes did not even ask what is this. The owner spotted it. If he would have said straight away then this would not have been an issue.

Regarding about too much talking.......................well how the hell am I to deliver a course. There was plenty of practice on the truck outside, that was going to the body shop to be repaired. After the day and plenty of polishing on it that truck does not need any body shop now, even the deeper scratches were taken out by the DA which blew everyone away. Plus I cannot control general male banter and the jokes. I cannot shout at people to respond. *I can deliver a course and if people like KES do not wish to follow and do their own thing as they wanted to concentrate on the rotary then what can I do.*

9 people gave the course 100% thumbs up, we even did the full engine bay datail on a Golf and the owner was amazed at the finish and did a full Wolf Body Wrap for one of the guys on a 1 day old Octavia in white.

So what else can I do; just seems a small mistake has now blown out of all proportion and if the comments carry on I think I will just concentrate on my work which I am busy enough with and, kick DW into touch as well as the courses, that I don't make that much on anyway after expenses.

After fuel, hotel, products, tax and time I may as well just stayed at home.


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## dblock (Aug 1, 2010)

I also attended this course and I was Kes's brother. Steve no one is attacking you here, its just some feedback. You did ask who hadnt used a rotary and Kes did say he hasnt machined before with a rotary or DA. Me and him was fine using the A15 and it was good practise but you got to understand he is paying for the damage of the car so he might not aswell of bothered with petrol and so on.

As for the marks he actually asked me where they there before. I looked and it and said yes im pretty sure they was. I put my hand there to check if it was hot and it wasnt so I thought it must have been there before but obviously it had just cooled quickly. He didnt shy away that he left the mark he even offered to pay to fix what more do you want?

It was negative as it did put a downer on the day for us. Kes didnt once deny that he didnt do it and gave his phone number to the owner. So lets say I thought it wasnt there when Kes asked me and we called you over then what? What have been different.

As for the comment in bold, your just digging yourself in. Me or Kes dont have a problem with you. We thought you was very nice, knowledgeable and a decent guy.

But yes I agree a small mistake has been blown out of proportion, but your reaction to it has shocked me tbh. I didnt have you down as a keyboard warrior. I thought we got on fine with you.

I agree with Kes's comments not just because Im his brother but if it was slightly more structured it would have been better.

Not having a go at you just trying to make your course better but if you dont want to know just say stick your comments.



Mirror Finish said:


> Ok lets get some perspective here.
> 
> I asked Kes and his friend several times if they were happy to carry on and they said yes on several occasions. They stated to me that they had *experience of using a rotary* and were happy to use the Scholl A15 polish on the car and learn a new technique. He did not seem to want to follow the others with some DA work then rotary. So I was happy to let them carry on and come back to them every now 5 mins or so to see how they were getting on.
> 
> ...


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## JenJen (Jun 30, 2010)

I'm sorry but some of the posts on here are uncalled for, and as for gordon "hijacking" the thread as one text message described it well I'm shocked. 

Before we started the practical side of the course everyone was asked what previous experience they had with a polisher. No one said never, some said none with a rotray. 

As for the type of car used for 1 of the demos as we had 4 cars in total well if you were not happy you should have been vocal, like myself although I did find myself fixing some damage on the bonnet and missing the one part of the course I was there for - wet sanding. 

I was very happy with steve methods for teaching and did take away a lot of info that I can use.


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## McClane (Dec 9, 2010)

http://www.linkedin.com/answers/non-profit/non-profit-management/NNP_MGM/817450-21939063

http://mashable.com/2010/02/21/deal-with-negative-feedback/


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## dblock (Aug 1, 2010)

Jenjen 3 people put their hand up to not using a rotary.y brother said no maching experiance at all. Why would I lie about this? 

No one is saying his methods where bad or anything. No one attacked him. It was just feedback. His courses in England look like they are much better structured then it was here. 

We still learned alot still had a good day. Just some feedback is all. I don't see why everyone is taking it as I'm slating the guy I'm really not.


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## rag1873 (May 26, 2010)

From an outside view, as i wasnt at the course it looks like Kes has just offered feedback of the course, just because it raises as issue everyone seems to be annoyed by him. 
Its just feedback - accept it whether its good or bad and build on it for the next course (make it closer to glasgow the next time and i'll be there!!!) Lol.


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## scoobymad (Jun 14, 2011)

Kes and dblock are just giving feedback,not sure why everybody is quick to have a go at them? Looks like a simple case of 'people not liking negative feedback' everybody prides themselves in detailing but if your pride is getting in the way of not able to cope with simple feedback and arguing publicly.......mega issues! As for paint coming away on the car boot....was there a paint depth gauge involved? My training courses are on various scrap panels ONLY!! I wouldn't usually get involved in something like this,but.......everybody who has jumped in at kes n dblock,sit back look at your replies and look at how defensive your being.... If you can't accept there was flaws...


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## RRobert (Aug 10, 2007)

Another day in paradise


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## Kes (Mar 4, 2010)

Thanks for the advice about scrap panels, will definately try that out.

I was asked by Jen to leave feedback and was hoping it would come across as constructive rather than negative. I apologise to Steve as i didn't mean to offend him. I just want to add my responses to Steve's post.



Mirror Finish said:


> Ok lets get some perspective here.
> 
> I asked Kes and his friend several times if they were happy to carry on and they said yes on several occasions. They stated to me that they had *experience of using a rotary* and were happy to use the Scholl A15 polish on the car and learn a new technique. He did not seem to want to follow the others with some DA work then rotary. So I was happy to let them carry on and come back to them every now 5 mins or so to see how they were getting on.
> True we was happy to carry on although it was only my brother who mentioned having previous experience. I was under the assumption we had to finish that car before the next came in and no one else seem to want to work on it. Also true Steve came every 5 minutes to check up on us.
> ...


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## Dave KG (Feb 23, 2006)

It is impossible to comment on a class that one does not attend, however, feedback is the most important part of any educational process and at the end of the day, that is exactly what these machine classes are. When I was running mine, I thrived on feedback - good or bad, it was all essential! Not once did I sit back after a class and think "yeah, that was perfect, spot on..."... You always look for what went well, what did not go so well and respond to this with modifications for the next class. They evolve and they improve all of the time and people's feedback is essential to this process. To shun it, or to pounce on those offering feedback because it is not 100% positive is not the way to improve classes and continually evolve them.

Looking at it from another side - these classes are not as easy as many may think to run... it isn't a case (or at least, it shouldn't be!) of just turning up with some machines, having a wee chat and setting people on their way with no prep beforehand... As a "teacher" or "coach", prepping these classes takes many hours - planning how to structure the material delivered, how best to deliver it, and how best to arrange the practical demonstrations and the hand on to cater for all those with different learning styles of a vocational skill. You need the chat. You need the visual demo. You need the hand on. All need to be integrated and done so carefully to ensure the class is structured in the best way. We all have our different styles of what we believe was the best structure, I have my way, Mirror Finish will have his and some will be similar and some different. Neither is right or wrong, but what should definitely be the case is a continual evolution of the structure based on feedback. If feedback is that the class lacks structure, then look and see why, take it as feedback and see if there are better ways to structure the delivery of material. Use the good and constructive feedback. A mish mash with no prior thought (I am not saying this class was this!) will never go down well because a lack of structure does not make clear the aims and does not show a route that anyone learning requires to follow when it comes to acquiring a skill. For example, a typical "route" that I used to use was a concept building route:

Machine Control > Machine Control Difficult Panels > Pads and Polishes > Paint Assessment > Paint Correction > Workshop

This starts with the basic concepts, covers them in detail without confusion of other areas, and then marries them at the end allowing people to process things individually and then put it together. This idea of "scaffolding" is a proven technique for education, be that young people or adults, and is the reason I use it personally... but this is just me personally, others will have their own theories and ideas, the important thing is that they should be continually reviewing them based on feedback.

It is the choice of those running the class what cars are used, and they will have their reasons for this... if a course member is having to pay to repair damage to a class car, I would be a bit sweer to agree that this is good practice, but again, it is not my course. A scrap car, like Steve seems to use at Manchester (the Astra, good choice as it has lots of good curves for machine control practice).

A class takes a lot of planning effort, a lot of cost effort to put on and so receiving negative feedback can be disheartening and it can be hard to see the positive in this - but there is lots of positive feedback here too and nobody should loose sight of that, just one piece of advice for what could make the class better. It can be disheartening to see negative feedback but as a professional it is vital to take it on board, and react to it by seeking to improve future courses... feedback is the most valuable thing any class can give you.

It looks like many folk have learned a lot, which is a great thing - with wee tweeks, the class can be made even better still and this is the key. Hopefully this makes sense, as I hate to see people being slated for simply offering feedback which is the most valuable thing to any professional.


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## DE 1981 (Aug 17, 2007)

Am I right in thinking everyone who attended paid for the privilege?

If so then surely any feedback left whether positive or negative is the right of those who paid. 

To Kes I don't think you should have to foot the bill for any damage caused, firstly the owner if the car was aware that inexperienced people were there to learn and secondly as Steve was running the course then I would have thought his insurances would cover any damage.

Being honest and this is no reflection on Steve I had a horrible feeling things wouldn't go well when I saw certain individuals were involved in the day. I do think Steve deserves credit for travelling such a long way to help others.


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## JenJen (Jun 30, 2010)

Ok this is getting out of control. 

This day was a training day held by Steve my only involvment was helping find somewhere to hold it. Yes I asked for feedback. Yes Kes left feedback, thank you Kes. Dave and Gordon, hijacking the thread as you did was expected. 

The day overall was successful and I have received a lot of positive feedback via text message since this thread turned direction.


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## Dave KG (Feb 23, 2006)

JenJen said:


> Ok this is getting out of control.
> 
> This day was a training day held by Steve my only involvment was helping find somewhere to hold it. Yes I asked for feedback. Yes Kes left feedback, thank you Kes. *Dave and Gordon, hijacking the thread as you did was expected.*
> 
> The day overall was successful and I have received a lot of positive feedback via text message since this thread turned direction.


Hijacking... erm, no. Offering constructive advice, yes. However, if the response to constructive advice is to accuse of hijacking, this alone says a lot. Which is a shame really. And as expected? If one cannot offer friendly advice on a forum without being accused of "hijacking" then it is a sad day indeed and a few people need to take a long hard look. Read my post - it offers nothing but advice, based on what I was reading to both Kes (who's post was showing someone who was very down about what had happened, and as said, the best way to learn it to pick the machine back up and practice again) and those running the course. Having been running courses like this for a couple of years when I was detailing as a business, I have a modicum of experience and was sharing this openly - I have no gain from this, in essence giving away my experience for free. Sad times if you are accused of "hijacking" when you do this.


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## scoobymad (Jun 14, 2011)

Dave KG said:


> Hijacking... erm, no. Offering constructive advice, yes. However, if the response to constructive advice is to accuse of hijacking, *this alone says a lot*. Which is a shame really. And as expected? *If one cannot offer friendly advice on a forum without being accused of "hijacking" then it is a sad day indeed and a few people need to take a long hard look. *Read my post - it offers nothing but advice, based on what I was reading to both Kes (who's post was showing someone who was very down about what had happened, and as said, the best way to learn it to pick the machine back up and practice again) and those running the course. Having been running courses like this for a couple of years when I was detailing as a business, I have a modicum of experience and was sharing this openly - *I have no gain from this, in essence giving away my experience for free. Sad times if you are accused of "hijacking" when you do this*.


BOOM,thread over,well said sir :thumb::thumb:


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## JenJen (Jun 30, 2010)

This thread was started to thank someone for his time for coming all the way from england to offer us training and advise. Something no one else has bothered to do for us in aberdeen, You want to be helpful go start another thread! Don't turn this into another 20page yawn fest preaching.


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## Dave KG (Feb 23, 2006)

Oh dear, oh dear....


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## JenJen (Jun 30, 2010)

No I'm fed up, text, after text have you seen what's been posted now. Seriously I don't care anymore. 

Steve if you bother reading this thread again, sir thank you and I'm looking forward to your next course in inverness


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## caledonia (Sep 13, 2008)

For some unknown reason my original post has been removed. So in light of this I will reiterate my original post and offer up free places to Kes and now his brother on one of my future polishing classes. As with before.
It was clear by Kes post that he was gutted by this mishap and lacking self confidence. With machine polishing and due to his heart felt post or feedback. I offered him this day. Nothing more and certainly not as it was par trade by certain individuals on this post. 
I guess times have changed on the forum as good will gestures are now seen in other light. I also hope that Kes &dblock have at least a chance to view my post. And it will be up to them whether they wish to take me up on my offer.
As they are more than welcome.


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## Leemack (Mar 6, 2009)

I'm all for people sorting things out but if this starts getting nasty then it'll just be closed which is pointless and not necessary.


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## ross-1888 (Feb 22, 2009)

Generally speaking. 

The attitude towards forum supports ex detailers and people who have attended a class is shocking. 

The guys only posted up a few bits of feedback. there is good and bad feedback in this thread for the class. I think that it should be took on board for your next class and stop acting like yous are 5 years old. 

Jen and steve put the class on. All you have done it attack other detailers and wine and moan jen. If you are putting on a detailing training class then you have to be prepared to take any criticism good or bad. Maybe these two guys had a one off bad experience at your class. rather than Moan about the feedback you havent even taken the time to address the issues they raised, Which should be more the point of this rather than having a go at gordon for offering a free day(which in my opinion yous should have offere to the guys). 



Only other thing i would say is that if the person who offered up there car for Learners to work on then any damage should not be footed by the person who caused it afterall they are there to learn. Some one new to this game wont know the limits and removal rates etc. 

I hope steve keeps on providing this service to folk in the northern parts of scotland as it seems to be valued by most who attended it.


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## CraigQQ (Jan 20, 2011)

i can see this thread getting locked...

its a shame people trying to help are accused of trying to hinder..

feedback is essential in ANY business, class, job...
you learn from bad feedback, and thrive from good feedback.

I feel bad for everyone involved in this thread now, 

surely if it was started for people to give feedback then kes, and his brother were giving honest feedback..
i dont see it as slander.

and for those offering advice to both steve, kes, his brother and everyone else who reads this.. I would have liked to think that we are all humble enough to take this advice on board.. especially from anyone who has expierience in running this particular type of event..


i'll end on a more positive note, steve, well done for running a course, you are in no way forced to give your time and advice, and its nice to see people trying to help new learners..
and as you have not responded to any of the further comments after your first one, I'm hoping the case is that you haven't read it mate, as I thought you were big enough to take advice aswell as offer it mate.. 
taking advice of other people is essential in life, it helps us better ourselves.


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## Mirror Finish Details (Aug 21, 2008)

Well after battling to find another care home for my Dad I am now back.

At the end of the day a tiny tiny mistake was made, like I could have repaired it with some touch up paint and some wet and dry. It was that miniscule.

I enjoyed the day and think most people took away knowledge.

It is hard doing a course for 10 men as they just wonder off and go and have a natter, this must be a man thing.

When I refered to Kes I meant plural, I could not remember who was who (sorry chaps) but knew one said they had experience. So as said they seemed happy to carry one on one car while the others attacked the truck outside.

as Dave KG has said, it is hard work doing a course, people want to see so many things with a time scale against it it is hard to satisfy everyone. Plus I am not a teacher, I have presented courses for years but cannot just do demos as everyone wants to get hold of a machine and polish.

The demo car outside I had arranged with the guys from Inverness could have been damaged with out a problem, as it was going to see paint anyway.

Personally I would like to see the thread closed as it has gone too far, posative or nagative comments the thread has just gone to pot.

Anyway many thanks to the guys for attending, thanks to Jen for the grub.


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## Dave KG (Feb 23, 2006)

Mirror Finish said:


> *At the end of the day a tiny tiny mistake was made, like I could have repaired it with some touch up paint and some wet and dry. It was that miniscule.*
> 
> as Dave KG has said, it is hard work doing a course, people want to see so many things with a time scale against it it is hard to satisfy everyone. Plus I am not a teacher, I have presented courses for years but cannot just do demos as everyone wants to get hold of a machine and polish.


To be honest, this kind of thing happens a lot at classes - in fact, I used to sand areas on the scrap cars to make thin spots to catch people out if they were not using a thickness gauge thoroughly, because it is a great learning experience to strike through and then disect why it happened. Makes sure folks have grasped the concept of paint assessment and using the thickness gauge for looking for inconsistencies. You learn well from mistakes. I don't think the strike through on its own should be viewed as a disaster, perhaps it was just the car it happened to.

And as Steve says here - these classes are hard work. Hugely rewarding but hard work to put together and we are *all* learning as we go, and improving every time... this goes for all walks of life.

Perhaps it would be interesting for those running classes to sit in on other classes? This would have to be done sensibly, but it provides an opportunity to see what others are doing, share ideas, share good practice and give each other feedback with one common goal... I say this because we do this all the time in education, and it works well - it is certainly how I am developing best. Would have to be done sensibly, but perhaps there is mileage here?


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## CraigQQ (Jan 20, 2011)

a professional and well mannered post steve :thumb:


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