# The tribulations of modern cars



## Ennoch (Jan 31, 2006)

So as the current owner of two rather basic cars, an Impreza and a Mk2 Honda CRV, I'm able to do work on my own car quite easily. The downside to that is that as they get older, they tend to need more work! While the Impreza is going to stay for the duration, at some point I'll need to find a (practical) replacement for the Honda. However, the question is what to replace it with? 

The requirements; 
- I'll be planning to keep it for 5yrs or more and therefore want something that I can do the maintenance on myself (how many cars now need plugged in to even replace the rear brake pads?!) as I am not paying £50+ an hour for something I should be able to do relatively easily myself. The resale value of self servicing doesn't really bother me given how much you save.
- Something that doesn't have massive and expensive design flaws built in that manifest themselves after the typical warranty/lease period is over.
- A reasonable range, therefore hybrid/plug in is out.
- 4WD (and not BMW AWD which is basically useless on true low grip surfaces).
- Ideally some ground clearance. This rules out most soft roaders as they don't have much more than a typical Ford Focus! 
- Estate/space to sleep two people while having a load of climbing/sailing/kayaking crap in it.
- Not a VW Transporter, I ain't a hipster.

The problem is that everything I look at seems to have major, expensive flaws (or are crazy money), or are just bland and insipid white goods. As examples;

Insignia VXR - has fairly guaranteed gearbox, rear diff and driveshaft problems.
Discovery D4 - spins main bearing shells in the engine, front bush replacement means you need new wishbones as the bolts seize into them, and they really don't last long
Range Rover L322 TDV8 - 3.6 blows turbos which is a body off job and the 4.4 snaps cranks, on top of all the usual Land Rover electronic foibles.
Volvo XC70 3.2 - more fun than the diesel but has major oil problems at higher mileages. The diesel seems okay but goes for crazy money with crazy miles. But that's probably because it ticks the main boxes for people in the market for a car like that.
Passat Alltrack/Octavia Scout - Both bland as anything, albeit they tick the boxes for general reliability/practicality. 
Subaru Outback - Unreliable diesel or awful petrol consumption.
BMW X range - the X-drive estates are too low and the soft roaders are junk in the snow. And fragile.
Which leaves what exactly? 

Am I simply being unrealistic? Am I asking too much?? Are cars really that unreliable, or is it just that the internet blows things out of proportion? I suspect it's not previously leased cars beginning to show their previous owners lack of care and attention given my dad's brand new Evoque made 36 fairly significant trips to the main dealer in the first 34 months of its life! I also suspect not given a garage I know up north basically says most modern stuff is pretty rubbish and also rather expensive to maintain out of warranty.


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## Lexus-is250 (Feb 4, 2017)

Why not just another crv then? They just go on for ever

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## RS3 (Mar 5, 2018)

Suzuki Jimny!
The new one is decent value and will hold its money well. Very competent off road but not particularly comfortable. Its a future classic IMO.

Also, don't overlook the Skoda's. They are so reliable its unreal. Have a look at the Yeti. Maybe bland but will deliver on all your other needs.


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## Ennoch (Jan 31, 2006)

RS3 said:


> Suzuki Jimny!
> The new one is decent value and will hold its money well. Very competent off road but not particularly comfortable. Its a future classic IMO.
> 
> Also, don't overlook the Skoda's. They are so reliable its unreal. Have a look at the Yeti. Maybe bland but will deliver on all your other needs.


Unfortunately both the Yeti and Jimny are way too small to sleep in with kit. If I didn't need that then the Yeti would be quite high on the list as it does have some character, or at least more than the Scout/Alltrack! Given it'll be used for about 20k miles a year there is definitely a desire for somewhere that's quite nice to be, hence looking at D4's and XC70's etc. At the end of a long and intense day in the mountains it's definitely nice to have somewhere relaxing to drive home in. Also, Skoda seats kill my back - both my old Octavia vRS and my girlfriend's Fabia, and any number of hired ones too.

I probably wouldn't go down the CRV route again, partly because the best feature isn't on the newer ones (flat folding front seats) and partly because the newer ones still have the same issues as these. I'd also like something with proper AWD rather than the part time elective system they use.

I guess it's almost a rhetorical question; does a semi-reliable, not ****-takingly expensive lifted AWD estate/off roader exist that is big enough to sleep in and has some character? I think I'm discovering that the answer is no! I think the closest is the Ph.2 XC70 but they're all on astronomical miles now and have the same age related issues my CRV has, so they're not really on the radar.


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## kartman (Aug 2, 2012)

How about a Dacia Duster 4x4. Quirky, cheap, has to be easy enough to fix, capable offroad, reckon you could sleep in the back too. Get rave reviews by some and not your average white good as listed


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## Shiny (Apr 23, 2007)

Thinking slightly out of the box, but if you can live with a JDM import, then consider an Odyssey. The RB2 and RB4 models are 4WD from memory, plenty of room to sleep in (back seats fold flat), Honda reliability and they look quite cool too.


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## rob267 (Nov 27, 2015)

Audi all road?

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## RS3 (Mar 5, 2018)

Ennoch said:


> Unfortunately both the Yeti and Jimny are way too small to sleep in with kit. If I didn't need that then the Yeti would be quite high on the list as it does have some character, or at least more than the Scout/Alltrack! Given it'll be used for about 20k miles a year there is definitely a desire for somewhere that's quite nice to be, hence looking at D4's and XC70's etc. At the end of a long and intense day in the mountains it's definitely nice to have somewhere relaxing to drive home in. Also, Skoda seats kill my back - both my old Octavia vRS and my girlfriend's Fabia, and any number of hired ones too.
> 
> I probably wouldn't go down the CRV route again, partly because the best feature isn't on the newer ones (flat folding front seats) and partly because the newer ones still have the same issues as these. I'd also like something with proper AWD rather than the part time elective system they use.
> 
> I guess it's almost a rhetorical question; does a semi-reliable, not ****-takingly expensive lifted AWD estate/off roader exist that is big enough to sleep in and has some character? I think I'm discovering that the answer is no! I think the closest is the Ph.2 XC70 but they're all on astronomical miles now and have the same age related issues my CRV has, so they're not really on the radar.


We have a Kodiaq Edition and its a fantastic car on and off road. After a 3500 mile round trip to Romania last year I had no problems with my back. Really comfy all the way and it can be slept in but Prices are still very high. I hear Skoda still have trouble ordering new ones as the factory just can't make enough of them keeping the prices of used ones up. I reckon in a year or so they will get cheaper. Can't say its got any character but its bloody comfy.


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## SadlyDistracted (Jan 18, 2013)

Can't get them new anymore but what about the Yetti ?


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## -Stuart W- (Dec 28, 2007)

Phase 1 Volvo XC90? Mines been uber reliable and it's very practical. It's supremely comfortable and soaks up miles with ease. The D5 lump is well proven too.


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## Lewis_RX8 (May 31, 2019)

kartman said:


> How about a Dacia Duster 4x4. Quirky, cheap, has to be easy enough to fix, capable offroad, reckon you could sleep in the back too. Get rave reviews by some and not your average white good as listed


Yea all basic tech in those which makes them such good value.

Also, less stuff to break means less stuff to fix :driver: .


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## ChrisHGTV (Sep 12, 2019)

What about the Mercedes GLK 4matic? Or the ML or GL? No experience of them personally but I’ve been super impressed with my old (2011) E Class.


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## NorthantsPete (May 18, 2016)

rob267 said:


> Audi all road?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk


He said work on it himself.

You need any car prior to 2007 really. French cars are dirt cheap to do up yourself, others need complex software.

Mine Ive got a newer Volvo V70, the ELECTRIC handbrake died on me in Tescos carpark the other day meaning i was pinned to the tarmac. Recovered and sent to garage, £300 repair. In the old days youd just whack it with a hammer and go home. Its just failed MOT aswell on a bulb and an fuel filler feed pipe (never had that before) - I blame Ford parts.

On that, maybe avoid Fords, they tend to have issues even multiple mechanics cant solve and you end up selling/scrapping the car.

Honda/Hyundai/Toyota/ Older vag stuff i would head for.


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## Ennoch (Jan 31, 2006)

Some interesting suggestions! 
Yeti - they are practical for their size, but sadly just too small.
XC70 - old ones are too many miles, and new ones the same but with the added bonus of flaky Ford parts!
Old XC90 - I always had these down as being heavy on fuel, poorly made and generally something to be avoided but the seats fold flat and give a huge sleeping area which is appealing. More investigation required! I do prefer the look of the XC70 though.
Ford - part of me says I should just get an old mondeo and a proper set of full on deep lugged snow tyres (rather than all seasons like the Sottozeros etc) but they are probably not a million miles off my old CRV in terms of niggles. Bushes seem to be particularly bad on them.
Dacia Duster - actually a good shout. The old ones are buttons and the 2019 Mk2 actually looks pretty good. Long enough to sleep in too, but good god they're slow! 
Merc GLK - looks ideal, except it's not available in RHD, and it's replacement the GLC, which is, is hideous.
Skoda Kodiaq - looks like it ticks the boxes but I'm not spending that sort of money, and I'm not doing leasing given I will keep it for a while. I want a car that has the practicality to get away and do things, but I'll never be dropping that sort of money on something that's going to be worth very little after 5 years and 100k miles, which is why something that's got some miles on it already and done a decent chunk of depreciation is appealing. But then that generation of car all seem to have issues; DMF, DPF, gearboxes, turbos etc. I also don't want something with a dinky little 1.5l engine in a big car; I just don't see how they're going to last as long as something bigger and less stressed.
Honda CRV - it has been considered, but the new ones are goppingly ugly and they still have the same brake problems as any old Honda! I'd also like a proper AWD system.

I do like the idea of the Audi Allroad as they're nice enough, spacious, and do reasonable economy. They also seem better value than the XC70. But, and it's a big but; any repair is going to be much harder to DIY, and the bigger 'design flaws' on the newer ones are yet to come out of the woodwork. Are there any cars that don't have these inherent major flaws?! Even ones that on the surface appear reliable seem to end up with big issues after a few years!

The outsider option was a pickup like the Hilux, although that loses the sleeping ability. A bigger problem is the 50mph limit on single carriageways which would make the regular 3am winter journeys up the A9 even more tedious. Previously I've looked at Navaras but going back to the 'there's always a major problem' thing, the Mk2's put rods through blocks and the Mk3's blow rear diffs and have chassis' that snap in half!


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## Pauly.22 (Nov 15, 2009)

Get a late. Saab 9-3 xwd.


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## ollienoclue (Jan 30, 2017)

Does it need to be an estate or a SUV?

Toyota Rav4.

Dacia duster is a hideous car that fails the moose test spectacularly.

XC70 with the D5 engine is a fair bet.


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## Gas head (May 28, 2010)

vw touareg I had was one of the most reliable vehicles Ive ever owned, had some early warranty stuff, and apart from that in 6 yrs of ownership just had normal service stuff and an EGR pipe replaced, ran bf goodridge tyres and remap which improved tyre life and mpg.


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## ollienoclue (Jan 30, 2017)

I'm fairly sure that there were AWD Mondeos made but they are very very rare. Jag X type is all Mondeo parts and can be had in 4 wheel drive.


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## NorthantsPete (May 18, 2016)

Can i just say, if you dont want to have to buy computers, stck to small basic cars or older ones.

Volvos, all need volvo VIDA system, since the 90's. Mine just cost me £600 in repairs for MOT, caliper failed handbrake stuck on, andfuel tank leakage. YOu can buy really old ones, the 850 or mk1 v70 and be ok.

audi bmw etc forget them, range rovers, especially.
Vauxhalls are renaults now.. not in any good way.. so many friends had them and had problems with every one. I drive the motorways its always vauxhalls or nissans breaking down (also renault now)

Fords, have weird issues.

Subaru.. agree great cars for reliability, however expect high costs due to the flat4/6 engines, its tight in there.

Peugeots, easy to fix and cost nothing to repair (whole exhaust was £120 fitted)

Toyotas.. good but when they die they can cost more than most, sold mine as repair outweighed the car. Old hondas and toyotas are good.

Old jags are good to work on, lots of sporty weight things but generally older models are big and loads of room, guy at work was no mechanic but constantly having a go at stuff.

Also, alfa romeos, thatyll keep you busy.. but i worked on everything and im no mechanic either.. but theyre old vauxhall engines in the diesels, so good to work on. I would go for either 147 or 156 (147 a nicer car, i had both).

MG rovers also easy to work on.

Small audis maybe ok, the old TT for example done a few bits on it but a lot of stuff breaks that doesnt on my old toyota so go fgure.

Really old Nissans are great mechanics cars, as are the old scrabble waggons such as the civivcs etc. engine bays laid out nice even on the modern ones (battery easy to get to, alternator on top, proper drain plugs on the radiator etc.

mitsubishi galant, big car also nice to work on, never forget the oil filter.. you unscrew it and a little channel catches the oil and passes it back to the sump area so no spills, genius! Someone sat there and fixed a problem noone lese does.


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## NorthantsPete (May 18, 2016)

ollienoclue said:


> Does it need to be an estate or a SUV?
> 
> Toyota Rav4.
> 
> ...


yep advised a rav 4 to the guy at work, he loves it now.

i have the d5 v70, so the non-jacked up one. Id say its costing me about 3-600 a year in repairs and maintenance.

Got a gearbox fluid to change next, last year it was a havey duty bearing, £300, this month £600 on new caliper and fuel feed pipe)

VIDA is needed for even the most basic things, but oil and filter easy as i suck it out and spit it back in, paper oil filter is on t he top of the engine, so its a no jack up job


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## ollienoclue (Jan 30, 2017)

NorthantsPete said:


> yep advised a rav 4 to the guy at work, he loves it now.
> 
> i have the d5 v70, so the non-jacked up one. Id say its costing me about 3-600 a year in repairs and maintenance.
> 
> ...


They are not dirt cheap to run, for that you need a Ford but they are reliable. We have a Volvo specialist not far away so generally everything is spotted before it becomes an issue. The quality of their parts is top notch as well, the garage we use insists on genuine parts for most things.

Nothing like as expensive as Audi or BMW to run.


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## Ennoch (Jan 31, 2006)

NorthantsPete said:


> Can i just say, if you dont want to have to buy computers, stck to small basic cars or older ones....
> 
> Subaru.. agree great cars for reliability, however expect high costs due to the flat4/6 engines, its tight in there...


Subarus are cheap as chips in my eyes as it's all DIY-able, or at least it was up until the latest generations. Having rebuilt two from the ground up as shell swaps and worked on mine for the last six years I'd say they're about the easiest things in the world to DIY.

And therein lies the problem; all of the suggestions for small hatchbacks are not suitable as I need something two of us can sleep in with all our kit for a weekend! Not that I don't appreciate the help, just that I do have some fairly specific non-negotiables!

AWD is non-negotiable. My Impreza with snow tyres can and has gone through 8" snow but not if it's hard as it just doesn't have the clearance, and the Honda system struggles on steeper roads as it allows the vehicle's momentum to reduce before kicking in properly. There's obviously a fuel penalty for the permanent system but it's one I'm willing to take, although as with everything, there are limits.

Similarly, the SUV/Estate element is also non-negotiable and unlike someone in the home counties, I do actually use the 4wd and increased ground clearance when I have it. In the summer I'm happy to bivy outside the car but in winter when there's a foot of snow on the ground, it's -10c and there's 50mph+ winds gusting outside it's much, much better to be inside. Now a van would be great for that bit but I want to use this as my daily too and therefore will not be driving a van/camper as a daily. Been there, done it, hated it. It needs fold flat (or easily removable) rear seats and 1.8ish metre length, preferably without a narrow gap between the wheelarches - and have space inside for both climbing kit and ski kit.

Like I said in the OP, I'm happy to do my own maintenance but so many modern cars are designed to be dealer only that this is becoming increasingly difficult.

There is also the element of needing to like the car if it's not just going to be a beater. I like something that has the 'it' factor (in my eyes, not anyone else's) although it's dawning on me that the 'it' factor might just be unreliability! :lol:

The LR D4 ticks the boxes of reasonable fuel economy on a run, big, good ground clearance and 4WD system and a nice place to be. But the bills have the potential to be big, particularly if the engine goes and that does seem to be their achiles. LR engines all seem to be that way tbh.

The XC70 may end up being the most logical choice, or perhaps the A6 Allroad (but perhaps less reliable). Bigger bills than a stock fridge with wheels but then it is probably the cheapest of the practical options.

The Saab's I do like, but the 9-3 is too small/low unfortunately. 
The Jag X-type AWD is getting old and unreliable. 
The Rav4 is too short to sleep in (especially as the rear seats fold up rather than down). 
Peugots/Renaults/Vauxhalls are fridges for finance albeit there are occasionally some interesting cars in their ranges. I wouldn't like to plan on keeping one of them for more than a few years.

VW Touraeg is an option as they do look more reliable on paper than the D4 despite being the same class. Borkage factor is less as a result but if one of the big ticket items goes then it'll be similarly ruinous.

If I'm going to keep it for a good number of years then it makes sense to get one of the proper scan tools for them; either the VIDA system for the Volvo, or the Britpart system for the D4/RR etc as it'll end up paying for itself many times over. Did I mention I really don't like dealing with dealers?!


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## NorthantsPete (May 18, 2016)

In that case the xc70 maybe what you need then. D5 is a great engine with its 5 cylinders.

Get yourself a VIDA from ebay and then you're away. They have less problems than most and no BIG problems. As I say mines fairly new and i do work on it and DIY maintenance.

May took a v70 across some hurrendous terrain and that was the low profile sport version!

Jaguar X-type 4x4 also one to look out for or a BMW 5 series X-drive 4wheel drive


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## Ennoch (Jan 31, 2006)

So a bit of a re-start of this thread may be in order. 

I've got to the point where I need to do something, but the question is what? Well, I've started to get both scope and budget creep.

I'd pretty much settled on a 2012 4.4 TDV8 Range Rover with 60k on it for about £15.5k from a private seller. The paint is scuffed to buggery but it's salvageable. It's a decent car, seems like a reliable one, and it's the last of the old shape and therefore the most desirable of the L322's. But the thought of owning it without a warranty started to scare me so I started looking at warranties. Warranty Direct seem the recommended but come out at £3200 for three years, which takes it up to basically £19k...so I started looking at what you can get for that money that's newer. 34ish mpg in the RR is perfectly reasonable but I also started questioning whether I really need all that off road ability, even if the driving experience is about as relaxing as you're ever likely to find, and could thus get something a bit more economical and less penguin killing.

I did look at pickups but they're all crap to drive, and if I'm going down that route I may as well stick with the RR. 

I test drove a late model 2015 XC70 the other night which was possibly the biggest disappointment. The old P2 spec ones were a really enjoyable drive in a floaty way, but this just seemed dead and lacking all involvement. That was in D5 SE spec. So the XC70 which I thought of as a sure alternative to the RR has been discounted. What it did open my eyes to though was the difference in cost of warranties as that was £1400 for three years. I've also discounted all the VAG stuff as I haven't sat in a single car made by them in the last 5 years that doesn't ruin my back within an hour.

Which leads me to where I am now. Today I looked at a 2017 C220 4Matic Merc and thought it was certainly a nice car for £20k. Fuel economy was reasonable, the interior was lovely and it went reasonably well. At £500 PA for an extended warranty and £35PM for a service plan also make it rather cheap to run. But my best mate keeps badgering about a 335D XDrive after the one he had a few years ago, and now I'm probably looking at that option. £17-20k gets you a lot of car for the money and similar running costs to the Merc C220D despite 140bhp more (although the car would probably be 2015 against 2017)! The only downside is the rather odd spec on some of them which misses out things like big brakes, adaptive dampers and heated seats in lieu for things like bodykits. The downside is the lack of ground clearance and less visibility compared to the SUV position. But 40+mpg is very tempting. Am I being daft? It is definitely beginning to encroach on the Impreza's territory and will clearly be a lot less relaxing than the RR, but at the same time be a lot cheaper to run...further thoughts please! Has anyone owned a 335D with the standard brakes and suspension and also driven adaptive and M Sport Performance brakes to compare the two?


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## grunty-motor (Aug 11, 2016)

how about a hyundai santafe? I had one for 3years and had no issues. Decent spec and 40mpg is achievable.

My 335d had adaptive, but if you get one without, you can simple upgrade suspension if you budget for it in the price? I never averaged over 40mpg......


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## NorthantsPete (May 18, 2016)

If it was me, a Kia sportage, plenty about now or another Honda/Toyota

Volvo, that model, shouldnt be too expensiv,e I have the v70, you can go for higher miles, if auto you want the gearbox oil change regularly and the aux belts change often too (they snap the cambelt). D5 is a beast, diesel yes but sounds like a petrol up the revs.


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## Ennoch (Jan 31, 2006)

NorthantsPete said:


> If it was me, a Kia sportage, plenty about now or another Honda/Toyota
> 
> Volvo, that model, shouldnt be too expensiv,e I have the v70, you can go for higher miles, if auto you want the gearbox oil change regularly and the aux belts change often too (they snap the cambelt). D5 is a beast, diesel yes but sounds like a petrol up the revs.


The Honda is boring but more than that, the later ones really don't do anything special on fuel. If I went for a most recent spec'd one with the 1.6 TDI in it then real world average is about 36mpg. Real world TDV8 is about 33mpg...

The Kia Sportage is a very nice car but I really struggle to think of spending £15-20k on one. Unfortunately most are FWD rather than 4WD and thus the 4WD ones both command a premium and have higher miles than I'd like. The 7 year warranty is very tempting though. The Hyundai Santa Fe is a nice car too, but again I struggle to comprehend spending as much as I would need to to get one that I'd want.

The XC70 has been removed from the list of potentials too; it just didn't do it for me. Maybe I didn't drive it enough on some faster roads but below 50mph the steering felt utterly disconnected from the front wheels. The RR has better handling and it weighs a full ton more!

I'm going to look at another TDV8 tonight (I've found an 80k 2010 at £10k) and then a 335D tomorrow night. The 335D is very tempting as I can get a BMW warranty and service pack on it for about £750 PA which seems like a no brainer if I do buy one. But it's a while since I've driven one and want to remind myself if it's what I'd really like; I just can't shake the feeling that I want something totally different to the Impreza as my daily, and something that doesn't encroach on the fun I still get from driving it.


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## SteveTDCi (Feb 8, 2006)

You don't need the 335d, the 330d is a better car. Its smoother and nicer to drive. You don't need the big brakes either, a 330d sport would be enough.


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## Lexus-is250 (Feb 4, 2017)

Lexus rx450h. Better built than the RR, more reliable and stacked full of kit. 

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## cangri (Feb 25, 2011)

VOLVO XC

Hyundai Tucson

DACIA DUSTER if you really want to go cheap


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## percymon (Jun 27, 2007)

Octavia Scout Estate (second gen) for something at the cheaper end

Audi All-road - same sort of thing at a greater premium

C220 Merc is hardly a capable off roader ? Not sure what year Merc ML you could get in budget but might be worth a look.

Subaru Forrester ?


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## SteveW (Feb 21, 2006)

Not sure if it's been mentioned already (I couldn't see it but in my defence I did "speed read" most of the thread as I'm supposed to be working....  )

Nissan X-Trail? 

Although since they changed the shape a few years back I think the largest engine they do now is a 1.6, which is a shame. I actually liked the older, "chunky" shape X-Trail more than the newer "generic" shape they switched to


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## Ennoch (Jan 31, 2006)

Thanks for the suggestions; I've been through most of them!

There are two veins of thought for me. The first is to buy something for three years and then jump from there into a non-plug in hybrid SUV (no drive way) once they become more reasonably priced. The second is to buy something for 5-8 years.



Lexus-is250 said:


> Lexus rx450h. Better built than the RR, more reliable and stacked full of kit


Of the first, the RR is clearly the one I'd like. That is driven by the heart rather than head, 100%. I can't get over the looks of the Lexus, they just don't look right to me.



percymon said:


> Octavia Scout Estate (second gen) for something at the cheaper end
> 
> Audi All-road - same sort of thing at a greater premium
> 
> ...


The reason I considered the C class and 3 series was a bit of soul searching and asking whether I really need the off road capability of the off roader. The answer is that it's nice, but I could probably deal without it as most of the time they now shut the snow gates so you're not able to get onto the road even if you're in a car that could. That significantly reduces running costs and allows for a much newer car for the theoretical £20k max if you go for an XDrive or 4Matic style system in a normal car.

Volvo XC70 as said has been discounted; in theory it's perfect but in practice I just couldn't own one as it was so lifeless. The seats weren't as comfortable as on the P2 cars either.

VAG offer many cars that in theory tick the boxes. In practice I haven't sat in a single VW/Audi/Skoda in the last five years that hasn't killed my back. The ride on them is all on the sporty side as well.

Subaru are definitely not the reliable option they used to be, are expensive, and the diesel not particularly practical. They're also all CVT.



SteveW said:


> Nissan X-Trail?
> 
> Although since they changed the shape a few years back I think the largest engine they do now is a 1.6, which is a shame. I actually liked the older, "chunky" shape X-Trail more than the newer "generic" shape they switched to


I don't blame you for skim reading! The X Trail is a nice car (although like you I preferred the old shape) but like the Honda is only a 1.6 now and so not that great on fuel unless you're sitting at a steady 70mph on the motorway. Get it on anything where you're using the gears and economy falls to mid-thirties.



SteveTDCi said:


> You don't need the 335d, the 330d is a better car. Its smoother and nicer to drive. You don't need the big brakes either, a 330d sport would be enough.


Why do you suggest the 330D is a better drive over the 335D? Suspension? Throttle response etc? I'm definitely one for having decent brakes and what I've seen suggests that the big brake kit is a worthwhile addition?


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## Ennoch (Jan 31, 2006)

So I test drove a white RR tonight. Lovely, it actually looks stunning in white, way more so than I was expecting and way nicer than the failed footballer/drug dealer look that black can sometimes have. I'd forgotten how light the steering was at low speed, more than I remember my old TD6 having (but still way better than the Volvo which just had fake weight to it). Also impressive was just how much go it had. 30mph to 80mph for a near three ton truck is impressive and has not made the decision easier. I'm going to look at a 335D XDrive Touring tomorrow for a reminder and go from there. There are a lot of decent 335's out there at the moment with a lot of spec and not many miles which make them a very realistic long term prospect (5-8 years), whereas the RR would probably be 2-4 years and then swap into something hybrid-ish.


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## Ennoch (Jan 31, 2006)

Next up was the 335D... I took a Touring out for a drive today. A bit short to really get to know it but at the same time it did partly confirm what I already knew and also left me wondering if it wasn't a bit too quick for what I'm after? It's superbly comfortable though, the seats are easily the most suited to my shape of any car I've sat in really. The dash looks cluttered compared to the much slicker (and admittedly a generation newer) C class but it's more intuitive. The boot is also a bit bigger than on the C, if tiny compared to the FFRR but still big enough to sleep in at a push.

Sport is definitely not a daily driver/round town setting, it's trying to get going all the time. Eco was the most relaxing, but with the option to boot it when you want. Amazingly this is becoming the head decision if I can find one with the right spec (HUD/Pano roof/MP Performance brakes/Heated seats) as most of them seem to be missing key bits like backside warmers. A warranty sourced direct through BMW is cheap and their servicing pack makes doing it yourself nonsensical for the additional value FBMWSH has. I think where the RR would be a 2-3 year ownership, the BMW could potentially be a lifer, and with that view it becomes rather compelling. It lacks the all weather ability of the bigger SUV's when there's deep water etc but realistically those situations are so infrequent that it's not a deal breaker. I was also impressed with the ride on 19" wheels with RFT's (the lack of spare wheel is definitely an issue).


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## bidderman1969 (Oct 20, 2006)

Kia Sorento?


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## telewebby (Apr 27, 2009)

Subaru Outback 2.5 petrol, solid performer, yes uses a bit more fuel, 30-35 combined and 40 on longer runs would be my choice.

Alex


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## ollienoclue (Jan 30, 2017)

I would avoid any BMW or Land Rover product if it was me.... Hugely complex cars. Throw in a 4 wheel drivetrain and it's going to punish you.

I would _seriously_ look at a Toyota or Lexus product if you intend to keep it any length of time.

Volkswagen/Skoda, maybe, but would seek specialist forum advice. At least parts tend to be cheap and their fixes are well known. Audi similar but I don't like the look of their Q cars and again, the Allroad is a complex car.

Do not drive through water with much depth to it in a modern car. Cold water contacting a red hot exhaust manifold is not a scenario I would want to envisage. Also some manufacturers put their air intakes in stupid places, too.

Subaru Forester can be bought dirt cheap, yeah they are thirsty but you will save a bomb on depreciation. Just watch for corrosion.

Many modern cars are lame when it comes to steering feel as they have switched to electro-hydraulic steering racks and end up shod on dull rubber. Plus our roads are pretty hopeless these days.

ML Merc I have heard good things about but I don't know anything about their reliability. Again, it's going to be a very complex car with a pretty staggering interior.

Doesn't 20K net you a new shape Volvo XC90?


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## Ennoch (Jan 31, 2006)

Sooo, I would appear to have bought a car. Not what I thought I'd buy, but I'm happy that I can stop torturing myself with questions and endless 'what if' scenarios. 

Ultimately I like the Range Rover, and would love to have another. Unfortunately the ownership cost and stress from reliability decided it for me. I also thought that it was a huge car for a lot of the time when I need neither that much space, or the off road ability. Other SUVs just leave me feeling cold, as well as being mainly FWD and lacking much extra ground clearance over their saloon/estate counterparts.

So I've ended up with a 335D XDrive as the sensible(?) choice. With interest rates as low as they are just now I decided to spend a bit over what I had originally budgeted and have picked up a 4yr old car with 30k, 1 owner, FSH, and aside from adaptive dampers, the full Christmas tree list of options. It's not at a main dealer but I'll get a dealer warranty on it and then buy a service pack. The warranty is good up to 100k, after which it becomes engine and drivetrain only, and for £600 PA that to me is a veritable bargain. Like I said, not what I expected to buy, and there will definitely be times I miss the SUV off road practicality from the Honda but as a long term ownership prospect the BMW ticked the boxes more than the rest. The main thing is that I can stop agonising over all the options and just enjoy the fact I have a new car...

Ultimately I wanted a newer and more 'drive and forget' car that I could basically just service and not worry over too much. I needed AWD and therefore that added unavoidable complication anyway, so the BMW with a warranty seems like a good option.

Thanks for all the suggestions, even if in reality they were predominantly an echo of my own thoughts!


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## Andyblue (Jun 20, 2017)

Enjoy your new motor - don't forget pictures :thumb:

Funny how things turn out, especially when you set out your want this / don't want that and you end up with something that you'd potentially ruled out...



Ennoch said:


> The requirements;
> - I'll be planning to keep it for 5yrs or more and therefore want something that I can do the maintenance on myself (how many cars now need plugged in to even replace the rear brake pads?!) as I am not paying £50+ an hour for something I should be able to do relatively easily myself.
> .....
> - 4WD (and not BMW AWD which is basically useless on true low grip surfaces).
> ...


Been there and done that, enjoy your new motor  :thumb:


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## Ennoch (Jan 31, 2006)

Andyblue said:


> Enjoy your new motor - don't forget pictures :thumb:
> 
> Funny how things turn out, especially when you set out your want this / don't want that and you end up with something that you'd potentially ruled out...
> 
> Been there and done that, enjoy your new motor  :thumb:


Damn, you spotted those requirements... :lol: I'm pretty sure I ticked them all, right?

And thanks! I'll put pics up when it's arrived. The first time I've ever bought a car unseen and undriven, and the most expensive car I'e ever bought too.


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## Ennoch (Jan 31, 2006)

Well it arrived this morning and looks in great condition but unfortunately I haven't yet set foot inside it as it came by delivery driver from the Covid epicentre of the UK (Greater Manchester). As I have my dad staying this week and as he's well into his sixties, is from the north of Scotland and also has a few health issues, it didn't seem worth taking it out and potentially passing any infection on. So it's sat there until he leaves and I can disinfect it properly, or wait three days, whichever comes first. A bit frustrating as I thought it was being delivered on a transporter but such is life. Not worth the risk to my dad for an extra day. Given the driver's rather lax attitude to H&S (no gloves/mask/sanitizer etc) and general things he said with regard to infection risk/rates etc I elected to have him drop the keys into a ziplock bag for later cleaning, signed the V5 with my own pen and left it at that! Updates of what it's actually like will follow shortly...what's most galling is that I had today off work to take it for a run!


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## roscopervis (Aug 22, 2006)

You wanted a car that you could work on easily and has a decent ride height and AWD system and you've got a 335D XDrive! Lovely car but the brief is somewhere in the next field!

I would have gone with the older style X-Trail idea. Get the latest, best condition 2.0L diesel 180bhp chunky style one you could have found, that would have been the safe(st) choice.


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## Ennoch (Jan 31, 2006)

roscopervis said:


> You wanted a car that you could work on easily and has a decent ride height and AWD system and you've got a 335D XDrive! Lovely car but the brief is somewhere in the next field!
> 
> I would have gone with the older style X-Trail idea. Get the latest, best condition 2.0L diesel 180bhp chunky style one you could have found, that would have been the safe(st) choice.


I think it's closer to being several counties away than the next field to be honest. But the good thing is that I can now stop stressing and overthinking what to buy. I've got what I've got, it's a lovely car to drive, it's in fantastic condition and I'm bloody happy with it! Sure, there'll be times I miss the SUV element but realistically it's such a small percentage of the time that it probably wasn't worth the downsides. Additionally, while I was concerned it would detract from the Scoob, today's drive proved otherwise. That was nice.

I liked the X-Trails, I just came to the conclusion that with the way things are in my life just now I would rather pay more and have a reliable car with a warranty and service package. This means I don't need to stress about anything with it other than tyres and brakes for the next five years, and keeps me at one project rather than two. Or two rather than three if you include the house!


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## Ennoch (Jan 31, 2006)

Well what's done is done, and it's here:


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