# paint questions



## patdavis (Mar 6, 2014)

guys, 

could you please tell me. what paint is best for my car,

i have a bmw with titan silver (0354)

is solvent based paints better than waterbase? 

do i have to use a solvent laquer if i use solvent base?


----------



## AllenF (Aug 20, 2012)

Mmm i aint a painter but i would say
Proper car paint not the stuff you last did the bedroom ceiling with
And apply it with a gun not the roller you did the ceiling with.
Sorry cant be of more help


----------



## Sutty 90 (Aug 24, 2014)

Can you give us more info on where your planning on painting, the size of the job and what with eg a gun or rattle can? The environment and method of application will effect what is best for the job at hand. 

By the way all lacquer is solvent based.

Sutty.


----------



## Andyb0127 (Jan 16, 2011)

AllenF said:


> Mmm i aint a painter but i would say
> Proper car paint not the stuff you last did the bedroom ceiling with
> And apply it with a gun not the roller you did the ceiling with.
> Sorry cant be of more help


Lol I hope that was a proper Harris roller. :lol:


----------



## patdavis (Mar 6, 2014)

sorry im no good with the proper paint lingo...

i have a devilbiss hplv gun. and compressor ect. 

i have sprayed my bumpers before and to my suprise they came out brillant. but that was a year back.. 

what my question was.. is should i use a 2k paint ( i think thats the term) contains cellulose?

or should i use waterbase?


----------



## patdavis (Mar 6, 2014)

Andyb0127 said:


> Lol I hope that was a proper Harris roller. :lol:


a proper roller would be hamilton not harris rubbish


----------



## Scoobycarl (Aug 13, 2011)

patdavis said:


> sorry im no good with the proper paint lingo...
> 
> i have a devilbiss hplv gun. and compressor ect.
> 
> ...


There is 2k paint (direct gloss)
Basecoat (colour coat) followed by 2k clearcoat (lacquer )
There is cellulose which is a direct one stage paint thats less durable and old fashioned really mate tbh
With basecoat and clearcoat the basecoat is either solvent based or water based and the 2k clearcoat is 2 component so mixed with a hardener (similar to 2k direct gloss) 
As to whats best to use i would say use what you did last year if you were happy with results, i imagine your confused now lol:thumb:


----------



## patdavis (Mar 6, 2014)

thanks, 

so just to be clear... 
i can use water base basecoat and a 2k clear coat 

whats the differance between clear coat and laquer?


----------



## squiggs (Oct 19, 2009)

Yes you can.
Clear coat and lacquer are the same thing.

Be aware that 2k products are very harmful when breathed in and ideally should only be used with an air fed facemask


----------



## patdavis (Mar 6, 2014)

so i am going to attempt to blend a my bonnet. 

i have a dent that i need to pull and repair, but my question is this. 
if i use waterbase base coat how do i thin (make it more transparent) the paint to blend out the edges?


----------



## squiggs (Oct 19, 2009)

You're a novice wanting to blend a titan silver bonnet ......

Silver is regarded as the most difficult colour to blend. 
Blending a silver on a bonnet is generally regarded as impossible by most professionals.
With such a difficult colour in most instances a pro would at the very least go edge to edge - but more usually they would then blend into the wings and bumper.
Even if by luck you managed to blend a silver on a bonnet (and there's only about a one in a million chance) then the whole bonnet would need lacquering as it's equally difficult to blend the lacquer on a bonnet.

In short if I were you I'd give up before I started - and I'm an experienced smart repairer!


----------



## patdavis (Mar 6, 2014)

Thanks for your comment.

everything you have said i know.. 

i know that titan silver is very very hard to blend / paint match.. but with the mark on my bonnet its gotta look better than it does now. 

i'm going to attempt to blend from the center (horizontally) out to the bonnet line. and lacqure the whole bonnet! 

worst case scenario ill have to paint the whole bonnet. 

perhaps a little help rather than discouragement from an "experienced smart repairer" to a "novice" would be a little more helpfull.


----------



## XRDAN (Feb 28, 2012)

dont give up mate if you want to learn and enjoy it! there is a lot to learn with paint and there will be mistakes made but as im sure you know after your bumper good results are very satisfying!

it may not be best to try a blend on the bonnet though, if it was me (im no expert) i would make the local repair, fade out the paint then give the whole bonnet a good drop coat and clear the whole bonnet. blending into wings and bumper would make the job a lot bigger. colour match will be your biggest problem even if your technique is good


----------



## patdavis (Mar 6, 2014)

xrdan. 

what do you mean by drop coat?


----------



## XRDAN (Feb 28, 2012)

move the gun back so about twice as far as you usually spray and move twice as fast, you can up the air pressure a little too. gives a nice thin and even last coat


----------



## AllenF (Aug 20, 2012)

Squiggs knows his stuff.
He is like me and speaks from the heart.
As he says though better to paint the whole bonnet and blend from there rather than trying to blend half a bonnet.
Many a decent painter has come a cropper trying to do silver as it is soooooo unforgiving.
Trying to match the flake run in silver by hand if it was robot painted is nigh on impossible to say the least.


----------



## patdavis (Mar 6, 2014)

how do you tell the the flake run?


----------



## AllenF (Aug 20, 2012)

If you look from one direction it looks lighter than from the other but the robots spray in a pattern you cant replicate easily.
All the aluminium flakes tend to line up giving it the bling bling look whereas by hand they tend to lay both directions. Hence the need for blending. IE to fade the flake from both directions to one direction without the eye noticing a hard definite line 
( thats how i understood it as explained to me years back but i may be wrong squiggs may explain better)


----------



## squiggs (Oct 19, 2009)

patdavis said:


> Thanks for your comment.
> 
> perhaps a little help rather than discouragement from an "experienced smart repairer" to a "novice" would be a little more helpfull.


I'm afraid I'm being as helpful as I can.
I'm giving you the advice that even a pro wouldn't attempt to try a spot repair on a silver bonnet because it's more or less impossible to achieve anything near a satisfactory result - many may have tried, but I guarantee 99.99% of them will have failed.

Had you asked for advice on how to walk on water without any means of floatation then rather than wasting both your and my time by suggesting that going on tiptoes whilst gently flapping your arms might work I would have truthfully advised you that it can't be done.

But if you see my truthfulness as discouragement so be it.


----------



## Andyb0127 (Jan 16, 2011)

Squiggs is right.
I'm not against people wanting to have ago at spraying there cars. But titan silver is by no means the easiest colour as with any silver, and I've been a sprayer for thirty years and nearly every silver we've done on a bonnet has been blended into the adjacent panels, as silver is incredibly hard to match edge to edge. You also need to take into account the safety issues with using 2k and the isocyanates it contains as you WILL need and airfed mask but also remember and take into account anyone one else that will be in the area or near you will be breathing in these fumes., health and safety is a must and don't believe these people that say you can use a cartridge mask they don't work or protect you from it. 
I'm not trying to put you off just be aware of how harmful it can be.


----------



## patdavis (Mar 6, 2014)

again, im going to attempt it no matter.. worse case the whole bonnet gets sprayed!

so on that bases help would be appricated!


----------



## patdavis (Mar 6, 2014)

i have mask.


----------



## Andyb0127 (Jan 16, 2011)

patdavis said:


> Thanks for your comment.
> 
> everything you have said i know..
> 
> ...


I'm also a smart repairer, what squiggs is saying is correct. He's not trying to discourage you or not be helpfull its about making you aware that what your trying to do is almost impossible and the whole bonnet will need basing with a good chance of blending wings. I've helped people on here with advice on how to do things as has squiggs and other sprayers on here. I'm sure you would appreciate us being honest with you as we are its not us being negative just advice on whats the right thing.


----------



## Andyb0127 (Jan 16, 2011)

patdavis said:


> i have mask.


Which type a full airfed mask, and where are you going to attempt the spraying.


----------



## Scoobycarl (Aug 13, 2011)

Ask for some water from your paint rep or wherever you get the paint from mate as they will have the correct stuff to thin waterbased paint With


----------



## AllenF (Aug 20, 2012)

Lol yup DONT try and use tap water its a recipe for disaster.


----------



## squiggs (Oct 19, 2009)

patdavis said:


> again, im going to attempt it no matter.. worse case the whole bonnet gets sprayed!
> 
> so on that bases help would be appricated!


Have a go and lacquer it.
When you see what's wrong strip it all off.
Next paint the whole bonnet and lacquer it.
When you see what's wrong strip it all off.
Finally paint the whole bonnet this time blending into the wings and bumper and lacquer them.
Job done!
:lol:


----------



## patdavis (Mar 6, 2014)

i already have two bumpers on the car i have sprayed and the colour is very very close.

i want to avoid spraying half the car as i am trying to sell it. and am not going to go to that expence for that reason. so only after a finish that will get the car sold. 

my family own the largest independant paint supplies company in the south west. 
so have all my PPE From them and will be painting in there demo booth.. (they don't sell car paint)


----------



## Sutty 90 (Aug 24, 2014)

If you really really want to have a go id definitely advise applying a coat of clear binder before putting any basecoat on the bonnet. This will give it the best chance of blending in but in all honesty I don't think it will look good. Every silver bonnet I've ever painted has been blended into at least the wings usually accompanied by the A pillars and bumper, dependant on make and model. Good luck mate and i hope you manage to achieve your expectations.

Sutty.


----------



## AllenF (Aug 20, 2012)

Then surly you would have " contacts " in the paint flinging game that could come over and "demo test" something for you whilst doing your bonnet for you??


----------



## patdavis (Mar 6, 2014)

As i said not automotive paint.


----------



## squiggs (Oct 19, 2009)

patdavis said:


> i already have two bumpers on the car i have sprayed and the colour is very very close.


Silvers simply don't blend in easily - it doesn't matter if the paint match is spot on they still won't blend in. They don't lay down the same as factory paint. And on a bonnet, roof, boot lid or any other level surface this all becomes even more noticeable. And those are the facts!
If you were asking about a flat(er) colour then the advice you'd get from here would be completely different - more the sort of advice I think you're expecting to hear now - but that advice simply doesn't work for silvers



patdavis said:


> i want to avoid spraying half the car as i am trying to sell it. and am not going to go to that expence for that reason. so only after a finish that will get the car sold.


In my honest opinion if you carry on with your 'have a go hero' approach there's a very real chance that you're actually going to de-value the car.

Anyway I honstly can't think of anymore advice I can give on this one ......
Good luck :thumb:


----------



## patdavis (Mar 6, 2014)

would the Orientation Coat help me?


----------



## AllenF (Aug 20, 2012)

No.
You will simply NOT replicate a robot.
Programmed to fling paint round at a set rate in a set pattern. Something your arm simply can not do PERIOD.
As squiggs says on a flat surface the flakes lay differently try to replicate it and you may as well paint it a different colour it will show that much.
Try and blend the lacquer on a flat surface ESPECIALLY a bonnet and it will probably fail and let go in a month.
Ring round get a few quotes. That should tell you a fair bit as to how much they have to do to get a satisfactory result


----------



## patdavis (Mar 6, 2014)

so on that bases then everytime a profession repairs a car he resprays the whole thing?
of course he dont!


----------



## patdavis (Mar 6, 2014)

i wont be blending the clear


----------



## AllenF (Aug 20, 2012)

No he blends it onto vertical panels and has miles of paint laid under his belt.
Eperience in flinging it about experience in identifying the flake lay experience in blending onto vertical panels where although not robot perfect will be almost unoticable in normal light.


----------



## patdavis (Mar 6, 2014)

guys im asking for help... you all seem to be very unhelpful


----------



## AllenF (Aug 20, 2012)

No not at all.
The advice has been given by at least two ( not me i aint no painter ) highly experienced painters. You have chosen to question their advice so they readvised and you are unwilling to take the advice.
The advice given was blend it onto the wings
Your response was i dont want to paint half the car.
You cant get a decent result by cutting corners its that simple


----------



## Sutty 90 (Aug 24, 2014)

Different colours require different methods of refinishing. Take a solid straight black for instance, be it 2k solid or COB. This can nine times out of ten be painted edge to edge no matter where it is on the car and the blends can be contained within the repaired panel. On the other hand silvers and any high silver content colours nine times out of ten require further panel blending. This is because the larger blended area slowly changes from one spray pattern to another making it less obvious to the human eye. The high metallic content is what makes it hard to get it looking right.

The most important panel on a car to get looking right is the bonnet as it's the first thing you see when looking at it. That combined with the fact it's usually one of the larger panels on the vehicle and that it's parallel to the sky makes any imperfections stick out like mad.

Best advise if can give you is to just paint it edge to edge and hope the angle of the wings to the bonnet help the colour difference.
Sutty


----------



## mr paint (Jul 11, 2009)

Sorry I have not read the full post but we are trying to do a blend on the bonnet in titan silver ?


I would say its achievable if using water based for the colour coat 

An orientation coat is only a good idea if your working in a booth as its basicly clear base coat that will fill scratches and help melt your next coat BUT if you get a spec of dirt in it you will NEVER get it out ....this coat must be laid perfect as this is the base for blending 


and ONLY if your confident of laying clear coat go for it ! 

REMEBER: on silvers/whites the clear can also change the colour so ask advise from your supplier


----------



## patdavis (Mar 6, 2014)

Ok so can you give me your recommendation as to get a good result using this colour on the bonnet


----------



## mr paint (Jul 11, 2009)

This is the normal way for me to carry out repair to bonnet 


Clean panel with degreaser

sand area and pull dent 

feather out edges of repair (D/A) 240grit 

Repair dent skim filler sand ...block finish repair on 240g 

mask of area and GREY scotch shiny areas (I only do grey on silvers and golds )

Prime with 2-3 coats of 2k primer Bake or let sit over night 

Guide coat sand with 400 dry on block the 600 wet ...then 800 on da about 6" around repair (Primary blending area )

sand or scuff rest of bonnet grey scotch with paste or p1000 (depends how I feel )

dry and pre heat 

solvent panel wipe 

solvent panel wipe 

water based panel wipe 

tack rag bonnet 2 times with compressed air over bonnet 

Ready to paint: 

2 Bar pressure :

Apply first coat light just over primer area 

Allow to flash 

Apply second coat few inches past first 

allow to flash 

apply 3rd and 4th if needed past and past 

Tac with tack rag in between coats 

The colour might still look off a little and you can see your blend edges 

This is the point I would do my drop coat .... increase the fluid by 1 turn and turn pressure down to 1 bar dependant on paint scheme .

this is over your repair fanning out into surrounding area of the bonnet but keeping away from edges .

With my paint this looks awfull at this point looks like lots of droplets on the panel ...leave to dry !

Come back after 15 mins and the bonnet is all matte and even ...if you can still see a little do another drop coat 


After this I leave for 30 mins 

Tack rag again and if it looks good get the clear on !


Hope this helps 

Tommy


----------



## patdavis (Mar 6, 2014)

Ok so before increasing fluid by 1 turn where should it be?


----------



## patdavis (Mar 6, 2014)

Can you confirm drop coat?


----------



## mr paint (Jul 11, 2009)

That's where you come into play pat ... do youtube on how to set up paint gun 

They are all different sweet spots 


My gti pro is 2 1/2 turns out 

sata 1 1/2 

so on that's the bit you need to work out unfortunately !


Tommy


----------



## mr paint (Jul 11, 2009)

This is the paint system I use but a lot more advance from when vid was made but same process

Tommy


----------



## patdavis (Mar 6, 2014)

I have the gti pro. I have judged it by experimenting in the past and had good results.


----------



## patdavis (Mar 6, 2014)

What techneque would you use for blending on the bonnet.


----------



## AllenF (Aug 20, 2012)

Post #43 mr paint explained it there.


----------



## patdavis (Mar 6, 2014)

What I ment. Fanning out horizontally across the bonnet or diagonally as per video


----------



## Andyb0127 (Jan 16, 2011)

patdavis said:


> guys im asking for help... you all seem to be very unhelpful


You've asked for advice we've given our opinion which you have chosen to question or more to the fact you didn't like our answers, as its not what you wanted to hear. 
Every paint scheme will be different on how its applied. Once we've prepped the bonnet as advised, our waterbase is one light coat, dry completely, then one full wet coat taken just past primed area, then drop coat straight over it blending colour out, no drying between coats as ours covers in one coat. All done at 2bar then dried fully, presuming the oven your using has dry jets installed or aqua dry system. Once dry check blend is ok if not turn pressure down to 1.5 bar and apply another drop coat blending out and tak it off first, dry it off check again all ok then apply clear coat. Not all waterbase is applied the same, you say you a gti pro is it a pro base or pro clear unless you have both.


----------



## patdavis (Mar 6, 2014)

That's correct. You seem to give more opinions than advise. Help is what I need, not dont bother your only gonna mess it up because nor even professions can pull off titan silver. Ffs just help people to the best of your ability or don't bloody comment.


----------



## AllenF (Aug 20, 2012)

Every painter paint differently.
Hence the opinion of how to do it.. Not a this is set in stone ... This how to do it. You will get a this is how i / we do it hence opinion .
If you choose to ignore the advice its up to you.
You have been advised to fade onto the wings you chose to ignore that and say you dont want to.
Then when its fully laid out again you question it.
Then go off at those giving the opinion / help.
Thats not exactly the way to get help is it.
Spray it in however you feel happy.. If your happy then happy days if not then take it somewhere and get it done professionally.


----------



## Andyb0127 (Jan 16, 2011)

patdavis said:


> That's correct. You seem to give more opinions than advise. Help is what I need, not dont bother your only gonna mess it up because nor even professions can pull off titan silver. Ffs just help people to the best of your ability or don't bloody comment.


With an attitude like that and throwing your toys out of your pram wont get you anywhere. We've given advice as I said you chose to ignore it because its not what you wanted to hear. Any other member would of got the same answers about it. Simple fact you cant help someone that wont listen.


----------



## toddy23 (Jun 16, 2012)

Sorry I don't agree with lots of post but I blend the basecoat on bonnets all the time at work with no problems(but been doing it for years) when people come and get cash jobs which every garage does you don't get paid to blend half a car so you do what they are paying for so if it's got a dent or stones chips the basecoat gets blended,plus at our place of work The foreman will say just paint the new parts then when the fitter puts them on if they match just leave them and if they don't blend it,,,,you would be surprised how many edge to edge colour matchs there is in octoral water base,,,bmw 354 bang on edge to edge,toyota 1f7 edge to edge,vw reflex all standard shade I know this cos I've done it.like said if they don't match it gets blended but you would be surprised.my boss would have a fit if we blended wings and A pillers that don't need to be done.


----------



## toddy23 (Jun 16, 2012)

On the other end if we do a bumper corner which is ****e match we blend to a line on the 1/4 even tho the other side doesn't match from factory but every car we do wether it's edge to edge or blended it goes out the right colour,I done a nissan 350z white pearl and I only painted 1/2 the wing that's the ground coat,the pearl coat and clearcoat then polished it in cos I didn't want any chance of lacquer change on the edge of the wing/door


----------



## mr paint (Jul 11, 2009)

Blend bonnet flat 

always try to paint panels as there on the car .....drop coat is where your further back at lower pressure and going over your repair and into original ....don't worry about diagonals at this point


tommy


----------



## squiggs (Oct 19, 2009)

patdavis said:


> That's correct. You seem to give more opinions than advise. Help is what I need, not dont bother your only gonna mess it up because nor even professions can pull off titan silver. Ffs just help people to the best of your ability or don't bloody comment.


You come across like an ungrateful spoilt child who when told that they can't have or do something screams the house down to try and get their own way.

I won't be bothering trying to offer you any more advice - just in case it's not what you wanted to hear.
:wave:


----------



## Scoobycarl (Aug 13, 2011)

Just have a go at it and maybe just maybe you will find out what most of the pros on here were saying at how difficult it can be !
Now toddy would paint just the bonnet and does it all the time ? But thats our point HE DOES IT All THE TIME so he CAN DO IT lol
People are just saying silver bonnet blend is a tuff learning curve thats all mate but just have a go and see what happens hopefully it goes great then you can say f*** you to us all lol


----------



## patdavis (Mar 6, 2014)

squiggs said:


> You come across like an ungrateful spoilt child who when told that they can't have or do something screams the house down to try and get their own way.
> 
> I won't be bothering trying to offer you any more advice - just in case it's not what you wanted to hear.
> :wave:


:thumb:


----------



## patdavis (Mar 6, 2014)

Thanks for the people that have tried to help, 

lets face it we all live by our mistakes.. but yet we wont learn unless from time to time we give it a good go... 

what might be acceptable for me might not be for a professional. and that works in my profession too.


----------



## Sutty 90 (Aug 24, 2014)

True, it all depends on what you deem to be acceptable from your work. In all honesty I think those who have tried to advise from a professional point of view have tried to guide you into achieving an oem factory finish with the knowledge and ideas they shared. As you said we all have different standards and expectations that we work to achieve.

Sutty.


----------

