# Damage



## turboyamaha

My mum just bought this car but when it was delivered it was covered in overspray. I contacted a detailer to machine polish it and just as he was finishing this happened. He says it is not down to him? What do you guys think?








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## Kerr

Surely the reason for paying a professional is so they have the knowledge and experience of what to do, and what not to do? 

If it was overspray before and he's burned through the paint then I'd expect him to accept liability.


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## dholdi

What is the reason for him saying it isn't down to him ?
I'm presuming because he thinks the work done prior to his is substandard.
If so he should have been able to identify that prior to starting and notified you of the potential for error.
I'm no machine polishing expert but would have noticed that level of damage way before I had broke through topcoat never mind that much base coat as well.
A professional should also have insurance for events like this.


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## P2K

If I'd have done that on my car or even worse someone else's I would have been mortified and either fixed it myself or paid for someone else too.

If it wasn't present before he started the work, then he should take responsibility and repair it or pay for it to be repaired even if he believes it wasn't his fault.


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## GSD

Looks like a scratch to me something has touched it.


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## turboyamaha

There were no imperfections there before he started. When I said it looks like the edge of a pad has caught it he agreed and said “not his pad”!


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## The happy goat

I would say its down to the person polishing but is the area that’s been painted? Maybe it’s not been prepared correctly?


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## turboyamaha

This is a closer pic sorry about the quality. There was no sign of any damage or previous repair to the area prior to this.

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## vsideboy

If it was me doing some work in that region, I'd have taken photographic evidence to prove that it was there BEFORE I started work around it, and probably highlighted it to the owner to ensure they knew it wasn't me BEFORE doing any work in that area.


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## turboyamaha

No he isn’t disputing it was there before we have photos of the car to prove. There was nothing there before, he says as soon as he touched it the paint fell off?


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## vsideboy

turboyamaha said:


> No he isn't disputing it was there before we have photos of the car to prove. There was nothing there before, he says as soon as he touched it the paint fell off?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Paint fell off or not, it wasn't there before, he did touch it and it's there now so it's still his fault.


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## GSB1

Dealers will use smart repairs of varying standard to prep cars for sale.

Why was there overspray on the car in the first place? Suggests it was in a body shop and this may have been why.

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## turboyamaha

It has had some work on bumper but right round where it meets the wheel and yes it could well be that is where overspray has come from. The whole car was covered in overspray. But there was no evidence of any work in area this has happened in.


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## Cookies

That looks as if the backing plate has gouged into the panel. I'd be certain that was caused by his polisher. 

Cooks

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## Darlofan

turboyamaha said:


> No he isn't disputing it was there before we have photos of the car to prove. There was nothing there before, he says as soon as he touched it the paint fell off?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


He's trying to fob you off there(stronger words could be used) The close up shows rough, jagged edges. No way that's prior damage that was covered over, you'd see it from a mile off. I'd keep on at him until he pays for it to be sorted.


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## slim_boy_fat

"I contacted a detailer to machine polish it ..."

Define 'Detailer' in this context. A Pro or someone "who's a bit handy with polishing" and is known through local contacts?


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## turboyamaha

Someone that does it for a living.


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## Taxboy

turboyamaha said:


> Someone that does it for a living.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Is he insured ?

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## andy__d

wasnt on the car when handed to him
Is on the car After 
his responsiblity as he did not state "That area looks like it has/has been X'd" 
if he Had stated "that area looks (something)" or "there maybe an issue with That area" differnt story


if he is refusing to take the responsiblity, do not forget the Small claims court, as Often the "ok fine i shall file it with them thank you" comment (When you are in the right) causes a sudden change....


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## Taxboy

Best way is to ask him if he intends to rectify the issue by email preferably so as there is a written record - you will need to show you have given him the opportunity to correct if you go the Court route

Mistakes happen how they are dealt with displays the quality of a business

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## Shiny

My recommendation would be to consult a paint specialist to determine possible cause. If they are almost certain it is as a result of a pad gouging it, then liability shouldn't be in dispute as the detailer as caused damage.

If it is as a result of a previous bad smart repair, then it could get a little more messy, as negligence on behalf of the detailer may need to be proved. Arguably pre-work checks, PDG readings etc may have identified this and avoided the problem.

Ultimately the car was not damaged before he worked upon it and now it is, so it will be difficult for him to prove that he isn't responsible. 

The first step is to get something to back you up, get an estimate for repair (preferrably two) and write to him (or email) stating why you hold him responsible and that he is liable for the cost of repairs. Enclose pictures of the damage. You can ask him to pass it to his insurers, but that's entirely up to him whether he wants to involve them, assuming of course he has decent cover in place as most policies exclude damage to vehicles being worked upon. If he is covered, he will have an excess to pay and if the repair cost is below the excess, his insurers won't get involved anyway.


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## Kerr

How much did the guy charge? Is he still expecting his fee with the damage?

If he's not charged you, then maybe the money you would have paid him will pay for a repair?


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## turboyamaha

He charged £250 which he says is almost half what he normally charges as he knows my brother and owed him a favour.I haven’t paid yet until we sort this out. What is the normal charge for a machine polish and then a ceramic coating, carbon collective I believe.


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## RandomlySet

A lot of detailers will easily charge £200 just to upgrade to a ceramic coating... That's on top of their usual prices.


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## AndyQash

turboyamaha said:


> What is the normal charge for a machine polish and then a ceramic coating, carbon collective I believe.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I paid £795 for the polish and Gyeon Duraflex.

It's obviously the guys fault and he needs to fess up and pay up.


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## MBRuss

Cookies said:


> That looks as if the backing plate has gouged into the panel. I'd be certain that was caused by his polisher.
> 
> Cooks
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk


This. That looks like the edge of the backing plate. Any serious detailer who looks after their customers would just apologise and get it smart repaired at their cost. If that had been there before and just quickly running the pad over it revealed that then the prior repair would have been obvious. If that big lump of paint fell off, then where is it? If he slowly polished the paint away to reveal that then, as others have said, he should have noticed well before it got that bad.

I say he was using the edge of his pad to get around the number plate and went too far, resulting in the backing plate coming into contact with the bumper and causing that damage.

Either way, no damage before, damage now. His responsibility to fix.

P.S. Those number plates are illegal.

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## turboyamaha

Why are the plates illegal?


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## MBRuss

turboyamaha said:


> Why are the plates illegal?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I didn't think the 3D effect text was legal, but a quick Google seems to suggest it's a bit of a grey area. They seem to be officially legal, but reports of people being pulled/failing MOT's for having them. You should be fine though.

As you said the car was new to your parents I wasn't sure if they came on the car, so might have been worth checking it out.

It's quite a retro look that 3D font!

Anyway, I'm more interested in what the detailer is saying - any update?

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## turboyamaha

They definitely are legal. Can’t actually get hold of him at moment.


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## Cookies

MBRuss said:


> I say he was using the edge of his pad to get around the number plate and went too far, resulting in the backing plate coming into contact with the bumper and causing that damage.


That's exactly what I was thinking. He was polishing the edge of the nunber plate recess. The gouge is parallel with the edge, which would immediately suggest that it was the backing plate. If be keen to see what type of polisher and pad he was using, put a pad on it, and hold it up to the edge if the recess, and see if the mark and backing plate roughly line up.

The edge of the gouge appears to get shallower at the top end, from what I can see , which suggests it was caused by a circular item, potentially rotating.......

Cooks

Edit- the distance I've highlighted in the pic appears suspiciously similar to the depth of a foam pad.










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## turboyamaha

This is what I had said to him but the response was “it wasn’t my pad that did it”. Anyone know the sort of money to smart repair it please?


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## Sicskate

In all my years polishing, I've done my fair share of damage... None have ever looked like that?!? 

I wonder if it's had a bodged repair and your guy took the top off?? 

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## fatdazza

So,

It sounds as though this "detailer" - I use the term loosely as there are lots of people who polish cars "for a living" that are not detailers - did a "mate's rate" job and appears to have gouged the bumper (most likely from the backing plate). 

Now says "not my fault".

Good luck getting resolution - I think you may have some difficulty.


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## atbalfour

turboyamaha said:


> This is what I had said to him but the response was "it wasn't my pad that did it". Anyone know the sort of money to smart repair it please?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Go and get a quote
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## Shiny

fatdazza said:


> So,
> 
> It sounds as though this "detailer" - I use the term loosely as there are lots of people who polish cars "for a living" that are not detailers - did a "mate's rate" job and appears to have gouged the bumper (most likely from the backing plate).
> 
> Now says "not my fault".
> 
> Good luck getting resolution - I think you may have some difficulty.


The "Detailer" still took money as a profession so has a legal duty of care, which if breached still comes under the ordinary law of negligence.

The problem here is that whilst a profession, it appears the detailer has not dealt with the situation with any degree of professionalism.


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## turboyamaha

He hasn’t actually been paid as he got quite angry saying it wasn’t his fault. Have tried contacting him since without success. Just don’t like to leave things on bad terms.


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## turboyamaha

Sicskate said:


> In all my years polishing, I've done my fair share of damage... None have ever looked like that?!?
> 
> I wonder if it's had a bodged repair and your guy took the top off??
> 
> Sent from my COR-L29 using Tapatalk


This was what he was saying. But there was no imperfection to that area at all. If it was a bad repair I think I would have noticed something.

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## Shiny

As i mentioned earlier, the detailer would really need to prove that there was a previous bad repair, could not be forseen and he was not negligent. Ordinary negligence is something along the lines of "If a person fails to take the reasonable precautions that any prudent person would take and their actions cause someone else harm".

Witholding payment may cause other problems, as he has still provided the services. You could get a cost for the repair and deduct it from the payment, but then you may find the boot on the other foot and the detailer persuing you for payment of the difference and you'll be the one sat in the defence seat.


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## Darlofan

turboyamaha said:


> He hasn't actually been paid as he got quite angry saying it wasn't his fault. Have tried contacting him since without success. Just don't like to leave things on bad terms.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


In that case, stop trying to contact him and wait for him to get in touch. In the meantime get quotes for a smart repair. Then when he gets in touch you can show him quotes. It might not be as bad as he is thinking so will happily take something minus repair cost rather than nothing. If he doesn't get in touch put in a text or email(so you have proof) that you've had a quote and willing to pay him minus the repair


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## suds

turboyamaha said:


> He charged £250 which he says is almost half what he normally charges as he knows my brother and owed him a favour.I haven't paid yet until we sort this out. What is the normal charge for a machine polish and then a ceramic coating, carbon collective I believe.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


He's done the job half price as 'favour' so he's thinking you should pay for a quick fix. He has rushed the job because there was little money in it for him - using a 5 inch backing plate in that area so as not to waste any more time on the job. 
If you calculate the man hours spent and conclude he has done the job very cheaply then I would repair it myself. All depends how you view the situation


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## MBRuss

Not sure that would be my view. Would you have paid him for the cheap job if you knew he was going to damage the car? Probably not, so taking the damage as an "oh well it was cheap, I should have expected damage" isn't how I'd view it.

As others have said, get a smart repair quote and deduct it from his payment.

If he thought he was in the right then he'd still be chasing you for the money. IMO he's ignoring you because he knows he's in the wrong and wants it forgotten about.

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## turboyamaha

I agree. 


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## andy__d

sod a "cheap smart repair" 
go get two or 3 quotes from Proper body shops for Proper repairs, and send him Copys of the quote

Why settle for a cheap "smart" repair to Good paintwork Prior to his "care + attention" when it *To me* looks and sounds like He caused the damge ,how/why doesnt matter, happed While he had the car to work on - His responsiblity

as for "leaving things on a sour note" ,, yeah you are left with a car that has Damage on that YOU are expected to fix/put right at your own costs as he is ducking contact...... 


ps make SURE the bodyshops know who caused it and why,, the quotes Should be well over the £ for the "cheap mates rates favour job" £


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## Sicskate

I still don't understand how he'd cause that kind of damage when polishing...

The backing pad should never be at that position, I guess he could have dropped something??

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## P2K

turboyamaha said:


> This is what I had said to him but the response was "it wasn't my pad that did it". Anyone know the sort of money to smart repair it please?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Him denying it was "his pad" that did the damage is probably right, it was his backing plate , either way he's just trying to pull a fast one.

I wonder if he was trying to use the edge of the pad rather than changing to a smaller backing plate and pad.

Leaning the pad over, not keeping it flat to the surface of the car bringing the backing plate into play.

I agree with others, go get a quote or two for a proper repair not a cheap smart repair then let him know.

If he is refusing to pay for the repair he is a fool, word of mouth from your experience could destroy his reputation and cost him even more.
He doesn't seem like a very clever guy!


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## Kenan

You still have the £250 he is charging you for the job, so get the damage fixed and give him what's left. Simples 

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## SamD

andy__d said:


> sod a "cheap smart repair"
> go get two or 3 quotes from Proper body shops for Proper repairs, and send him Copys of the quote
> 
> Why settle for a cheap "smart" repair to Good paintwork Prior to his "care + attention" when it *To me* looks and sounds like He caused the damge ,how/why doesnt matter, happed While he had the car to work on - His responsiblity
> 
> as for "leaving things on a sour note" ,, yeah you are left with a car that has Damage on that YOU are expected to fix/put right at your own costs as he is ducking contact......
> 
> ps make SURE the bodyshops know who caused it and why,, the quotes Should be well over the £ for the "cheap mates rates favour job" £


Not all of us smart repair guys offer cheap smart repair jobs


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## turboyamaha

SamD said:


> Not all of us smart repair guys offer cheap smart repair jobs


What sort of money would you charge to repair?

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## SamD

turboyamaha said:


> What sort of money would you charge to repair?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Around £180-£240


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## Kerr

Are you sure the bumper hasn't seen paint before at the point of the error? The corner within the recess looks a different shade.



He's still responsible for damaging it as he should be spotting areas to avoid.

What moves the goalposts a bit for me is this is a mate's rates cash in hand job. You're not paying anywhere near the going rate. The guy is obviously cutting corners and probably operating illegally.

If the car was also rough with overspray it's not right that you go away and spend all of his fee on a glossy new spray job putting you in a better position than before.

I've had really bad workmanship from a few tradesmen. Poor quality work and spending an unreasonable time doing basic things. Also claiming more hours than worked.

The advice I was given from Trading Standards is these people still have to be paid. Judging what is a fair amount isn't that easy. If you don't pay a business they can take action against you.


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## turboyamaha

Wow that’s harsh. That is a trick of the light there is no difference in colour or texture. So you think I should pay him all the money and then pay to get it painted aswell? He won’t answer any phone calls or messages????


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## Darlofan

turboyamaha said:


> Wow that's harsh. That is a trick of the light there is no difference in colour or texture. So you think I should pay him all the money and then pay to get it painted aswell? He won't answer any phone calls or messages????
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Well, you've done what you can. As I said before, keep the messages and if he takes it further you have proof you tried/offered to pay. I think you'll not hear from him again, he's ****ed up so better for him to go quiet.


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## Kerr

turboyamaha said:


> Wow that's harsh. That is a trick of the light there is no difference in colour or texture. So you think I should pay him all the money and then pay to get it painted aswell? He won't answer any phone calls or messages????
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The advice I was given when disputing the bill was to get quotes from other professionals of what the work would cost and the cost to correct work he had done to a poor standard. It wasn't for me to decide what was fair and my opinion would count for nothing.

In my case the guy's bill was vastly more than the other professionals I asked. I was still advised against paying the same as others quoted as I would need to have that professionally justified if they took me to the small claims court.

I reluctantly paid the guy in the middle of his bill and what others would have charged. I still got a threatening solicitor's letter telling me they were taking action against me. They had their facts all wrong and I had sought advice. I provided the facts and didn't hear anything again.

If he's done it dodgy on the side, which for the cost it appears he has, he won't take action. It does leave things a bit awkward, especially if he's a mate of your brother.

If you're getting things done on the cheap I think you need to take some of blame/risk. Businesses have big mark ups to help cover when things go wrong.


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