# Riddle Me This << Rant warning 2BM



## Ste T (Jul 17, 2008)

What is the point of a 2BM when your going to correct the car afterwards, its really starting to grate on me, whats the point???

is it not just gimmicky to say, "i will wash your car the safest possible way, befor i go and correct it", any one with common sense could wash the car safely with out the 2BM if its going to be corrected, if you introduce 1 more swirl mark, so what your correcting it anyway!

iv seen this from both novice and "pro's"

what is the point or an i missing the point...? 

and dont even get me started on when IPA should be used. :devil:


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## Eddy (Apr 13, 2008)

I guess you could avoid it if your going to correct it afterwards but for maintenance washes it's important.


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## RobW (Jul 18, 2009)

Could make any problems worse and introduces good practice.


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## Spoony (May 28, 2007)

I don;t think there is a need to justify it. You could inflict some bad RDS with washing, and you might inflict one that doesn't come out.

Why damage it more before your going to correct it. Thats like taking chunks out your wall just before your going to plaster it. 

Also it'll be habit for most, no point breaking that habit.


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## h13ulk (Oct 31, 2008)

because its sort of stops you getting lazy, using one bucket method you end up hating 2bm, its like trying too quit a bad habit, for me anyways if you get what i mean


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## Ninja59 (Feb 17, 2009)

making more work for yourself? and RDS could be more of a problem as well in the end meaning possibly heavy polishing sessions removing more paint


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## Ste T (Jul 17, 2008)

sorry guy not convinced just yet, seems extra hassle to me still. and for introducing an deep RDS, common sense when washing will take care of that.


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## h13ulk (Oct 31, 2008)

20RSport said:


> sorry guy not convinced just yet, seems extra hassle to me still. and for introducing an deep RDS, common sense when washing will take care of that.


well not really in 1 bucket your liftin the dirt,grit etc straight out the bucket and back onto the car no matter how good your was technique is. its unavoidable hence why cars need corrected in the first place


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## Adrian Convery (May 27, 2010)

If you have the gear why not use it? Doesn't take much more effort either and it's good practice!


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## alanjo99 (Nov 22, 2007)

Totally agree with the OP , you get a car that has been washed with breezeblock for the last 10 years and a roller brush wash for 5 years before that ... and you give it a 2BM before machining ?? Come on !

A careful 1BM (mit/ gritguard) would be the safest wash 99% of the cars out there have ever had in their lives !

IMHO totally pointless to do a 2BM before correction.


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## Ste T (Jul 17, 2008)

alanjo99 said:


> Totally agree with the OP , you get a car that has been washed with breezeblock for the last 10 years and a roller brush wash for 5 years before that ... and you give it a 2BM before machining ?? Come on !
> 
> A careful 1BM (mit/ gritguard) would be the safest wash 99% of the cars out there have ever had in their lives !
> 
> IMHO totally pointless to do a 2BM before correction.


thankyou...!! :thumb:


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## Ste T (Jul 17, 2008)

right just google'd an image and found this,










i really dont think one more wash will hurt it, do you before correction?


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## Spoony (May 28, 2007)

To be fair, either use 2bm or don't, why should it be of concern what everyone else does.


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## ianFRST (Sep 19, 2006)

i dont even use a 2bm anyway  never have done 

yes my car is swirl free


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## h13ulk (Oct 31, 2008)

each too their own lol


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## ant_s (Jan 29, 2009)

Has it ever got dirt on it Ian, or does it stay in the garage?  , if you can't take the hint. I wanna see more pics of your car


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## Brazo (Oct 27, 2005)

Theres little point I will agree, snowfoam it and then one bucket is all thats needed to remove the traffic film. 

Some of the before pics of swirls I see are so bad the member may as well have wiped the dirt off the car with wire wool, so yes a careful wash is pointless. 

That said it can teach the client how to carefully maintain it, 
You may not know what condition the car is in until you have carefully washed it.

Which is why it always pays to play these things by ear


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## Auto Finesse (Jan 10, 2007)

Spoony said:


> I don;t think there is a need to justify it. You could inflict some bad RDS with washing, and you might inflict one that doesn't come out.
> 
> Why damage it more before your going to correct it. Thats like taking chunks out your wall just before your going to plaster it.
> 
> Also it'll be habit for most, no point breaking that habit.


I agree with this to an extent, its not much more agro to clean the car using two buckets than it is with one is it? well at least the way we are set up its not, our buckets are joined together anyway :lol:

What will really keep you from inflicting damage is wash media and technique, using two buckets is just one part of a safe wash procedure in my opinion. Iv seen many cars where the guys using all the right stuff but still inflicting damage, due to not using it properly.

Granted if the cars in the mess of the one pictured above your not going to need to take quite as many stages to wash it with out inflicting anything worse than is already there.

As a business we would rather do it right, and leave clients safe in the knowledge anything we do will be beneficial to the finish not detrimental.


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## dominic84 (Jan 27, 2007)

/\ me niether - IMO buying expensive buckets, having more than one bucket, or using a grit gaurd are all a complete waste of money.

Grit guards make me laugh the most, they potentially only stop the dirt from right at the bottom of the bucket from touching the sponge/mitt. So for it to be of any use you would either need to be someone who leaves their sponge/mitt in the bucket (chances are it will float anyway), or sticks their sponge/mitt right into the bottom of the bucket. 

IMO if you do the latter then you should see if you can return your grit guard in exchange for a big box of common sense!


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## Ninja59 (Feb 17, 2009)

Also in addition does it not look bad not practicsing whjat essentially you preach?


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## Danno1975 (Mar 30, 2009)

Don't forget though how dirty rinse water gets forgetting damage from any grit.

Your effectively washing your car with dirty water as part of your pre polish decontamination. And considering the sort of cars that your mentioning I'd imagine they'd be pretty rank. 

It's personal choice though.


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## Alex_225 (Feb 7, 2008)

For the sake of an extra bucket of water and the fact that you could effectively cause more harm why not use the two bucket method? 

On that one occasion you choose not too on a really dirty car because you're going to correct it, you could end up inflicting more serious damage.


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## nick_mcuk (Jan 4, 2008)

I never use a 2BM on my cars and have never inflicted any damage to the paint. and thats on solid black Audi's

I have caused slight marring from an old drying towel but that's it.

In my eyes the 2BM is a gimmick!


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## Chufster (Nov 21, 2010)

Expensive buckets are a gimmick, maybe even grit guards. Bit how is spending £2 on an extra bucket and filling it with water really going to inconvenience you?

Besides, most people here who only detail their own cars, spend more time washing than correcting, so why wouldn't you use 2 buckets if it could reduce the amount of swirls?

It's no extra effort, very little extra cost, and could reduce swirls, that makes it a no brainer to me. Any thing else is just trying to justify cutting corners.


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## ak07 (Dec 4, 2010)

What about 3 bucket method. Lol


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## RandomlySet (Jul 10, 2007)

I kinda agree lol. was also thinking whilst watching my golf video, why snowfoam before correction for the same reasons. all part of a habbit imo


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## Leemack (Mar 6, 2009)

I'm just in the habit of using 2BM and TBH it would feel too different now to change so for the sake of filling up the extra bucket I will continue to do so


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## Ste T (Jul 17, 2008)

-Mat- said:


> I kinda agree lol. was also thinking whilst watching my golf video, *why snowfoam before correction for the same reasons.* all part of a habbit imo


No that's not even the same thing, not even close... ??? hope that wasnt a question in your "how to become a detailer on DW questioner"

The art of snowfoam is its chemistry that is designed to foam and attack dirt.

Its designed to be put onto the paintwork which then agitates by movement down the panel and the fact it eats into the foreign matter on the panel in a soaking action. Once it has attacked the dirt or foreign matter it is then sprayed off, the snowfoam has now done its job.

Hence snowfoaming in the first place for less contact.


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## caledonia (Sep 13, 2008)

I agree with both side here. Safe washing as in technique is the most paramount factor and 2BM is just a tool to aid this process.
But when a client drops off there pride and joy. They expect you to take pride in your work and treat the car better than your own. And rightfully so.
So whether it be tape to cover up edges and rubbers or the 2BM. All necessary steps should be take to safe guard their car at every stage.
But there is no right or wrong side to this discussion. It is as much down to the individual as anyone else.
Gordon.


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## bigmc (Mar 22, 2010)

Yes maybe so but snow foaming does no more than a pressure wash with plain old water.


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## RandomlySet (Jul 10, 2007)

I know what foam does, I was just using it as a similar comparrison. anyway, I will always foam and 2BM before any wash :thumb:


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## Ste T (Jul 17, 2008)

bigmc said:


> Yes maybe so but snow foaming does no more than a pressure wash with plain old water.


no i dont agree there, i have pressured washed the car and then used a foam and has dirt still within the foam, depends on the foam i suppose as a citrus or tfr would shift from than a just foam.


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## Gruffs (Dec 10, 2007)

I use ONR, if it works as it says (and there is no reason for me to think that it doesn't) then 1 bucket, a grout sponge and a drying cloth is all i need.

Snowfoam, the extra bucket, twice the shampoo and water, separate mitts.

It's all designed to get you to spend more than you need to.


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## caledonia (Sep 13, 2008)

Sorry Stephen.But SF is esentually a de greasing gents. Designed to break down traffic film and exhaust fumes on the surface of your vehicle. This film helps grim and heavy materials to bond to the surface of the paint or LSP. So the once SF is applied the nature of the product looses the grime. Through the bubbles continually moving to the surface (A form of natural agitation) Lifting clear of the surface as it works and once loose gravity take its place. The rinse process simply complete the first stage of decontamination. Prior to the wash stage.


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## Ste T (Jul 17, 2008)

once the car has been corrected im all for using 2BM and do so on my own cars, and will/would do on any customers car. its just before the correcttion stage that gets me,

its like drying the car before you clay (if you miss out de taring), whats the point most clay lube contain water anyway.


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## Ste T (Jul 17, 2008)

caledonia said:


> Sorry Stephen.But SF is esentually a de greasing gents. Designed to break down traffic film and exhaust fumes on the surface of your vehicle. This film helps grim and heavy materials to bond to the surface of the paint or LSP. So the once SF is applied the nature of the product looses the grime. Through the bubbles continually moving to the surface (A form of natural agitation) Lifting clear of the surface as it works and once loose gravity take its place. The rinse process simply complete the first stage of decontamination. Prior to the wash stage.


totally agree that's what i said wasn't,? it shouldn't be missed, it was -mat- who said he was thinking of missing it out, and that is suicidal.


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## The_Bouncer (Nov 24, 2010)

Gordon's pretty much hit the nail on the head - ( post #29 ) - re pressure washing, blasting dirt fast across or hard into paint - no thanks - for me - snowfoam designed to remove initial dirt in it's low - more protective manner.

but as so clearly put before - we all do things different - thats what makes DW tick. and that's why there are tens of thousands of threads on this forum

:thumb:


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## caledonia (Sep 13, 2008)

Shame on you Matt :lol:
dont worry m8 only joking.
Gordon


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## RandomlySet (Jul 10, 2007)

I always snow foam. I'm on my phone and didn't explain properly lol....

I was just applying the same logic, that if you're correcting anyway, you could say "why bother" to various stages.

however, as detailers, the reason so many steps are taken are partly habbit and partly due to safe practices...


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## Clark @ PB (Mar 1, 2006)

It's all about reducing the risk for me and it's easier to keep the mitt much cleaner with 2BM instead of 1, especially on manky cars.

Also, I don't want potential detailing clients pulling up outside PB HQ seeing me washing a car with 1 bucket - they won't be any wiser if the car is in for correction or not and it may be enough to put off the fussier ones (and quite rightly so)


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## Mirror Finish Details (Aug 21, 2008)

For correction work I just drive it through the car wash next door, touchless hot power wash and foam for a fiver.


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## Chufster (Nov 21, 2010)

If you are about to detail the car you could just wipe it over with a wet sponge if you take the attitude that it doesn't matter what swirls you're going to add.

I agree with Gordon though. If you are detailing a customers car, it's all about treating the car with the utmost respect and doing everything in your power not to damage it in any way, shape or form. Even if you are about to correct it afterwards. It's could also be about educating the customer in best practice to maintain their vehicle after you have detailed it.

As using 2 buckets takes no longer and costs no more than using one, I don't see why you wouldn't.


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## gally (May 25, 2008)

Need I say more?

I can remember to this day the first time I used the 2bm. Even after Snow Foaming the above image was still produced.

Credit goes to the detailer in the picture.


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## CraigQQ (Jan 20, 2011)

20RSport said:


> once the car has been corrected im all for using 2BM and do so on my own cars, and will/would do on any customers car. its just before the correcttion stage that gets me,
> 
> its like drying the car before you clay (if you miss out de taring), whats the point most clay lube contain water anyway.


tbh, if thats what you want to do, then do so, i dont think you will change anyones mind, its a personal choice..
some people prefer to take the safe option over the fast one..

imo and this is only my opinion, 
why bother with 1bm if your not bothered about adding swirls.. take it to the local bus wash where they will spray it with TFR and brush it down with the garden brush/rake, and then you can go ahead and correct it:thumb:


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## Dingo2002 (Apr 4, 2007)

20RSport said:


> What is the point of a 2BM when your going to correct the car afterwards, its really starting to grate on me, whats the point???
> 
> is it not just gimmicky to say, "i will wash your car the safest possible way, befor i go and correct it", any one with common sense could wash the car safely with out the 2BM if its going to be corrected, if you introduce 1 more swirl mark, so what your correcting it anyway!
> 
> ...


Why give yourself more work by risking additional scratches to the paint. Who says you won't be unlucky and grab hold of a piece of grit that manages to cut deeper into the paint that you were planning on correcting? Surely good practice is good practice regardless of whether its actually needed?


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## Modmedia (Jul 25, 2008)

ianFRST said:


> i dont even use a 2bm anyway  never have done
> 
> yes my car is swirl free


Sames.

My car is not swirl free though due to previous owner (Soon will be though :wave


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## bigmc (Mar 22, 2010)

20RSport said:


> no i dont agree there, i have pressured washed the car and then used a foam and has dirt still within the foam, depends on the foam i suppose as a citrus or tfr would shift from than a just foam.


Yes but your rinse water will still get dirty when you snow foam too so it's doing nothing more than a proper prerinse with a jetwash, did you read Wolf Chemicals findings on snowfoam? Here
It's the same situation with clay, if your clay is hanging when you've finished your prep work isn't upto scratch.


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## McClane (Dec 9, 2010)

Anything to keep my Mitts clean... :thumb:


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## Guest (May 9, 2011)

A pre-wash (foam/spray) followed by a good rinse will, imho, get rid of 99.9% of solid debris. A follow up 2BM wash will still cause the rinse bucket water to discolour. However, I'm not convinced that it contains particles large enough to marr paintwork.

The 2BM (or more) originated when pre-washing was not really done, other than a fresh water rinse. As wash techniques have moved on, it does make me wonder if it is superfluous. If I were an employee of a company with a reputation to maintain then I can completely understand a belt and braces approach. But, as just a hobbiest, the only person I need to impress is myself .


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## Leodhasach (Sep 15, 2008)

For me it's just about keeping in good practice, whether the car is corrected or not. Plus, I get a strange sort of satisfaction from seeing a clean wash bucket and a manky rinse bucket 

Whatever works for the individual really. I don't see the point in getting worked-up about it :thumb:


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## mishy (Jan 26, 2011)

BareFacedGeek said:


> A pre-wash (foam/spray) followed by a good rinse will, imho, get rid of 99.9% of solid debris. A follow up 2BM wash will still cause the rinse bucket water to discolour. However, I'm not convinced that it contains particles large enough to marr paintwork.
> 
> The 2BM (or more) originated when pre-washing was not really done, other than a fresh water rinse. As wash techniques have moved on, it does make me wonder if it is superfluous. If I were an employee of a company with a reputation to maintain then I can completely understand a belt and braces approach. But, as just a hobbiest, the only person I need to impress is myself .


This follows my thinking exactly and I use a single bucket and sometimes ONR but it all dependant on the target and its state.
Even after snowFoam, bucketwash, a de-tar,ironx and clay I can can still get a MF dirty with a little paint cleaner. And there still isn't anything stopping a freak gust of wind dropping some real particles back on or when you close the garage door the rafters dropping some bits on the car. It can all go over the top...

I applaud 20RSport for sticking his neck out somewhat cos i do think some go a little too far or think that they must follow others to the nth degree when it really isn't necessary.
Sure some enjoy working above the average level and get a kick out of it, some do it to highlight professionalism, either way its nice to debate, may even stop a few wasting 15l of water on there weekly wash on a well LSP'd car that isn't even dirty


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## MuZiZZle (Apr 18, 2011)

I use 3 buckets, sometimes 4.


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## J1ODY A (Nov 28, 2008)

Thank goodness that I don't use buckets, I have a team of highly trained kittens that gently lick the dirt off leaving no damage to the paintwork!


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## MuZiZZle (Apr 18, 2011)

J1ODY A said:


> Thank goodness that I don't use buckets, I have a team of highly trained kittens that gently lick the dirt off leaving no damage to the paintwork!


I'm awaiting a heavily scientific reply containing a super close up of a cats tongue!


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## MuZiZZle (Apr 18, 2011)

infact










now that's gotta cause swirling!


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## J1ODY A (Nov 28, 2008)

MuZiZZle said:


> infact
> 
> 
> 
> ...


hence the "highly trained" bit, these kittens have been specially bred with a smooth tongue!


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## TelTel (Aug 21, 2010)

-Mat- said:


> I kinda agree lol. was also thinking whilst watching my golf video, why snowfoam before correction for the same reasons. all part of a habbit imo


I can see what your saying Mat but i personally think though that getting into a habit of snowfoam & 2BM etc especially when doing customers cars is that the customer wants to see EXACTLY how different you are as a car detailer compared to a normal mobile or drive thru car wash. I'd like to think that Detailing world would be of an encouragement to do whats best in a professional manner and for me regardless of swirls, scratches that are already there you are now in possession of that vehicle and should by no stretch of imagination feel it doesnt matter about a 2BM & if you inflict more swirls or not just because you'll be doing a paint correction anyway. 2BM is obviously there for a good reason and should be taken up as a habit. Its abit like saying "well if the dog wants to take a s*** on the kitchen floor let it coz ive got to mop the floor anyway", its about prevention. With regards to ONR the paintwork is already in most cases been corrected and protected and if done on 'dust free' bodywork its highly unlikely that swirls will greatly be inflicted and if ONR is to be carried out on a vehicle with such contamination then your mad to do so.

prevention is better than correction and also cause and affect is a good way of thinking aswell.

P.s Mat i hope this isnt taken the wrong way and i am trying to be positive here regarding the 2BM AND SNOWFOAMING. some things can come across wrongly but honestly im happy with whatever people want to do as its their job or vehicle they have responsibility for.


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## Dwayne (Jul 27, 2010)

J1ODY A said:


> hence the "highly trained" bit, these kittens have been specially bred with a smooth tongue!


:lol::lol::lol:


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## ITHAQVA (Feb 20, 2011)

I use one bucket (Shampoo) & wash the mitt out thouroughtly with the hose after I have cleaned each panel. No need for a second bucket :thumb:


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## ITHAQVA (Feb 20, 2011)

J1ODY A said:


> Thank goodness that I don't use buckets, I have a team of highly trained kittens that gently lick the dirt off leaving no damage to the paintwork!


P***Y & licking in the same reply, my kind of detailing


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## Ross (Apr 25, 2007)

Whats the point of making work for yourself?


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## silky (Mar 24, 2007)

each to their own in my opinion, if you dont want to use 2 buckets dont nobody is forcing anyone to use two or one.. its all down to personal preference and what you believe is good for yourself.. 

i use two buckets and also snowfoam the car first... i dont see the need for a grit guard as i dont put my mitts etc all the way down to the bottom of the bucket where all the gunk has settled


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## robtech (Jan 17, 2011)

ive always used 2 buckets for the past 20 years so to me its old news ,mainly cause i live in a flat and its easier 2 carry 2 buckets worth of soapy water rather than having to trek up 3 flights of stairs. you can always just chuck one bucket of water over the car before you wash it...honestly getting upset at why folk use 2 buckets.who cares what others do.as NIKE SAYS JUST DO IT.


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