# Wheel cleaner of choice Acidic or Alkali ?



## Patrickm

Hi Guys,

as a manufacturer we have seen various comments being made about wheel cleaners on DW and wanted to ask a question.

This is so we can see why people use the cleaners they do, this is more for our understanding due to seeing threads where we feel possibly mixed messages could be given out.

What wheel cleaners are people using and why?

Thanks
Pat


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## Paddy_R

Bilberry Wheel Cleaner. Bought it because I saw it being used and it seems to work.


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## happmadison1978

Currently Britegel and very cherry non acid. Previous lots from wonder wheels(on E36 split rims! <yikes>) But I'm only a relative noob, sure some experts will give you a better view!

That said I've sealed with fk1000p and I'm working loads and trying to move house so I forsee a pressure wash and a quick shampoo when I get the chance.


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## spyder

P21s only as I feel it's very safe and works well:thumb:


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## DMH-01

Espuma Revolution as it was the only cleaner that sorted my alloys out. Used it on plenty of alloys now and it's always worked amazingly.

Although your #6A Wheel Cleaner is definitely a strong rival and I'll be adding some more of it to my collection soon.


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## Patrickm

DMH-01 said:


> Espuma Revolution as it was the only cleaner that sorted my alloys out. Used it on plenty of alloys now and it's always worked amazingly.
> 
> Although your #6A Wheel Cleaner is definitely a strong rival and I'll be adding some more of it to my collection soon.


Thanks, Although I really appreciate your comments I wasn't fishing for that kind of answer honestly.

Truthfully it's more to find out what kind of product people are using and their reasons for using it 

But Thanks for the kind comments :thumb:

Pat


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## CraigQQ

OCD NI's Wheel Cleanse. :thumb:

its brilliant stuff thats the reason lol


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## burger

Autosmart smartwheels its fantasic and cleans brilliantly.
Its cheap £13ish for 5litres and dilutes very well 10-1 regular and 3/4-1 for heavy duty.


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## Hasan1

I find I always go back to autoglym. Works for me iv tried lots of other wheel cleaners but I feel I get a better finish from autoglym need a bit of working tho


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## -Kev-

soapy water - wheels are sealed with wolfs wheel sealant. otherwise, espuma revoultion. i'd not use a chemical every wash..


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## Duke Wellington

For the normal car cleaning I don’t use a specific wheel cleaner because I honestly feel that I don’t need to use one.

My wheels are protected with SRP & Collinite 845, for normal car cleaning I use Bilt Hamber Surfex HD at 1% strength from a spray bottle followed by ordinary car shampoo and this does the job.

For the reason I use Surfex HD; it is a very good degreaser and cleaner and works out to be very economical.


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## Patrickm

CraigQQ said:


> OCD NI's Wheel Cleanse. :thumb:
> 
> its brilliant stuff thats the reason lol


what is it craig acid or alkali?


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## nick_mcuk

On a weekly basis I use either my own mix of TFR and Turlewax Big Orange or AG Acid Free Wheel Cleaner.

2-3 times a year I will do a deep clean and use AutoSmart Ali-Shine and Smart Wheels.

I dont have any issues with using acid based wheel cleaners aslong as you rinse it off well they work very very well.

Too much anal hype over acid this or that....I cant see using this recent fad of peroxide based "decontamination" products oh they are PH neutral but something doesnt have to be Acid or Alkali to cause damage to the pain...in fact one maker of said product says that it causes the paint to swell and expand...that cant be good in itself!


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## Bratwurst

Iron X first (I know it's not a 'wheel cleaner', but it cleans wheels) then:
Stjarnagloss Hjul (ph nuetral gel) if this doesn't finish the job then:
AS Smart Wheels (alkali wheel cleaner) and if that doesn't work, on a rare occasion I'll get out the:
Meguiars Wheel Brightener (acidic wheel cleaner)


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## BRUNBERG

on my cars i use normal body shampoo as i have one car wearing SV Autobahn and the other wearing Gtechniq C5

For when i do mates cars etc i use Bilberry, it's an alkali but not strong, i like the fact you have to work it a bit with brushes etc. I generally mix it with IronX too which makes it amazing

I would be scared of any wheel cleaner which you could spray on a dirty wheel and just PW all the dirt off as it would be too acidic and therefore not really wheel safe


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## Flair

burger said:


> Autosmart smartwheels its fantasic and cleans brilliantly.
> Its cheap £13ish for 5litres and dilutes very well 10-1 regular and 3/4-1 for heavy duty.


Same as this ^^^^ and it foams well clings, and it is alkali not acid too.


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## Flair

nick_mcuk said:


> I dont have any issues with using acid based wheel cleaners aslong as you rinse it off well they work very very well.
> 
> Too much anal hype over acid this or that....I cant see using this recent fad of peroxide based "decontamination" products oh they are PH neutral but something doesnt have to be Acid or Alkali to cause damage to the pain...in fact one maker of said product says that it causes the paint to swell and expand...that cant be good in itself!


Acid wheel cleaners will and do peel laquer on wheels, been there done it seen it, and if there polished alloys and uncoated both acid and akali will ruin them.


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## AboveFunction

U use the foaming Wheel Cleaner from Asda - it was £4.20 or 2 for a fiver so I picked up a couple and they work a treat


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## nick_mcuk

Flair said:


> Acid wheel cleaners will and do peel laquer on wheels, been there done it seen it, and if there polished alloys and uncoated both acid and akali will ruin them.


Well I have been using acid and alkali wheel cleaners for more years than I would like to mention...(since i started driving when I was 17....now 35!) and have never seen any issues as you mention.....I have once or twice seen mild bleaching caused by Ali-Shine but these were on wheels that were quite franky FUBAR'ed, might add that it was rectified by going over with some AG SRP...

As for polished or bare metal...no agreed....diffrent ball game there.

The point I am making is there is far tooo much hype over this and that.....


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## Flair

nick_mcuk said:


> Well I have been using acid and alkali wheel cleaners for more years than I would like to mention...(since i started driving when I was 17....now 35!) and have never seen any issues as you mention.....I have once or twice seen mild bleaching caused by Ali-Shine but these were on wheels that were quite franky FUBAR'ed, might add that it was rectified by going over with some AG SRP...
> 
> As for polished or bare metal...no agreed....diffrent ball game there.
> 
> The point I am making is there is far tooo much hype over this and that.....


Agreed it does depends alot on the maker realy too and how it is used, but they do. I have done it, and lad that worked in our valet bay washed is car like twice a week and used the acid everytime. I warned him, and a few months later his TD prorace 1,2 wheels was peeling.

Even akali is corrosive though, and if there is break in the laquer it cause them problems. Hence the warnings on most cleaner not to used on un laquered wheels and damaged wheels too.


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## Bill58

I use Very Cherry (non acid) Wheel cleaner from Autobrite. It works really well by misting on and pressure washing off.


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## Shinyvec

I now only use Autobrites Non Acid Very Cherry as its so easy to use. Spray on, let dwell and powerwash off, job done. I used to use a acid wheel cleaner that I bought in a 25l drum but it destroyed Focus ST wheels within 12 months from new so when I joined some Forums and read reports of Very Cherry I soon swapped over.


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## Patrickm

BRUNBERG said:


> on my cars i use normal body shampoo as i have one car wearing SV Autobahn and the other wearing Gtechniq C5
> 
> For when i do mates cars etc i use Bilberry, it's an alkali but not strong, i like the fact you have to work it a bit with brushes etc. I generally mix it with IronX too which makes it amazing
> 
> I would be scared of any wheel cleaner which you could spray on a dirty wheel and just PW all the dirt off as it would be too acidic and therefore not really wheel safe


Brunberg Thank you!

This is exactly one of the reasons why I felt I needed to start this thread to be honest I find it extremely difficult to comprehend how you feel this way about Acidic cleaning when you think its safe to mix two different manufacturers products together to formulate your own product without any previous testing or findings :doublesho 
Mixing ammonium acids and caustic salts together is not good as both can cause bleaching/dulling to lacquered surfaces very similar to oxidisation from the sun.

A wheel cleaner is a product and there are many ways to use chemistry to develop this kind of product whether it be to formulate an acidic or alkali based product.
Pretty similar to there being many ways to drive a car, I will drive a car differently to you as you will drive differently to the next guy and so on, we may all get to the destination but some of us a little safer than the other if you get my drift?

Just because a wheel cleaner contains acid does not necessarily mean it is unsafe, there are many non acidic wheel cleaners on the market and some of them are even more dangerous/hazardous to the users health and the surface you needing to treat than acid based products.

Please don't take this the wrong way and think I am digging you out because I'm not, what I want to do is explain things may not always be as they appear and why :thumb:

Thanks
Pat


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## Patrickm

Flair said:


> Acid wheel cleaners will and do peel laquer on wheels, been there done it seen it, and if there polished alloys and uncoated both acid and akali will ruin them.


There are many kinds acid and not all acid will peel lacquer! alkali will react negatively against polished alloy as well as many other metals where most acids won't. I take it from your post you have had bad experiences with would that be correct?

Thanks
Pat


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## Flair

Maxolen UK said:


> There are many kinds acid and not all acid will peel lacquer! alkali will react negatively against polished alloy as well as many other metals where most acids won't. I take it from your post you have had bad experiences with would that be correct?
> 
> Thanks
> Pat


Yes one or two, but possibly down to both user error and not having a clue about the product. Polished wheels I had that where lacquered was striped because of wheel cleaner from the yard I used to work in. Had a Subaru that's wheels did the same using a ****ty car wash. And valeting at ford a guy had it happens using there acid. Seen damage done by leaving it to dwell to long too, and dulling plastic caps etc and already blistered wheels. But as Experiance goes now i avoid wheel cleaners on damaged bare polised wheels etc and use quite diluted alkali or wolfs deironizer depending on the job.


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## nickfrog

I don't understand the need for a wheel cleaner. My wheels are sealed with WSS after decontamination when I bought the car so just a tiny bit of shampoo in a bit of water removes ALL the dirt. I could use an expensive "dedicated" wheel cleaner and get no better result.


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## Superspec

Depends whose car I am doing.

Mine is just soapy water.
Cars I haven't done before a combination of Wolfs Decongel and Autobrite Very Cherry in varying strengths dependant on how bad the wheels are.

I use these products because they work.


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## Patrickm

Flair said:


> Yes one or two, but possibly down to both user error and not having a clue about the product. Polished wheels I had that where lacquered was striped because of wheel cleaner from the yard I used to work in. Had a Subaru that's wheels did the same using a ****ty car wash. And valeting at ford a guy had it happens using there acid. Seen damage done by leaving it to dwell to long too, and dulling plastic caps etc and already blistered wheels. But as Experiance goes now i avoid wheel cleaners on damaged bare polised wheels etc and use quite diluted alkali or wolfs deironizer depending on the job.


Tar and brush springs to mind 

There are many good products out there where a lot of hard work, time and effort have gone in to the research and development to get it right, never mind the financial implications to do this before a product even goes into production.

The unfortunate thing is that there are many cowboys out there who claim to have products which are fit for a purpose but in fact are not, this constant lust for financial gain and want of jumping on the band wagon spoils it for every creditable company who do it right and have developed precision products which are fit for the job they are designed for. 
Like I said tar and brush :devil:


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## nixon

I use Wolf's nano cleaner but previously a Biberry user.

My MV1 wheels are a pain to clean as they collect a lot of dirt due to the angular nature of them. Wolf's choice was easy:

Good price point
It actually works
No fuss with little agitation required
Package is no-fuss (its just a plastic container)
My money is obviously going into Wolf's product development and not into fancy stickers and stupid names. This is important !
I like the fact that I cannot get it at Halfords (we like to think of ourselves as a little bit special).


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## Flair

Maxolen UK said:


> Tar and brush springs to mind
> 
> There are many good products out there where a lot of hard work, time and effort have gone in to the research and development to get it right, never mind the financial implications to do this before a product even goes into production.
> 
> The unfortunate thing is that there are many cowboys out there who claim to have products which are fit for a purpose but in fact are not, this constant lust for financial gain and want of jumping on the band wagon spoils it for every creditable company who do it right and have developed precision products which are fit for the job they are designed for.
> Like I said tar and brush :devil:


Surpose its just one of those things ain't it. Unless someone is a chemist or realy understand the construction of it. All you can do is read, listen to opinions and try it to form your own evalution of it. Im no scientist, so its just going to hae to be one of those things that i learn more about as time goes by. There's so much conflicting infomation on net, hundreds of opinions I just form my own.


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## m411mtf

I tended to use Wonder Wheels but since trying Iron-X and just today, Purple Rain, I'm a convert. To be honest, I've only cleaned two wheels with each but the results were very impressive and I really can't decide which one is better than the other.


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## Patrickm

Flair said:


> Surpose its just one of those things ain't it. Unless someone is a chemist or realy understand the construction of it. All you can do is read, listen to opinions and try it to form your own evalution of it. Im no scientist, so its just going to hae to be one of those things that i learn more about as time goes by. There's so much conflicting infomation on net, hundreds of opinions I just form my own.


We operate in more than a dozen countries around the world and put a lot in to R&D as quality and safety is our top priority - so our guarantee to our customers is that we only manufacture the highest quality products, both for the user, as well as the environmental maximum safety and tolerability are paramount.

We are always aiming for the highest customer and partner satisfaction and take into account all feed back to improve our outstanding products.

This is why we are officially listed and approved by companies such as www.porsche-holding.com as their recommended supplier of car care products. :thumb:

Thanks
Pat


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## Patrickm

m411mtf said:


> I tended to use Wonder Wheels but since trying Iron-X and just today, Purple Rain, I'm a convert. To be honest, I've only cleaned two wheels with each but the results were very impressive and I really can't decide which one is better than the other.


These products are not dedicated wheel cleaners you know that right?


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## MAUI

Sonax is my go to wheel cleaner. Acid free and ph neutral. Changes color to show it's working and smells nice.


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## cotter

burger said:


> Autosmart smartwheels its fantasic and cleans brilliantly.
> Its cheap £13ish for 5litres and dilutes very well 10-1 regular and 3/4-1 for heavy duty.


What he said :thumb: previously used Bilberry but IMO Smartwheels pips it. If Smartwheels won't shift it then Megs WB is the next step, but try not to use acidic where possible. I'm no chemist, I can only go on guidance and advice, but I'm always wary of using acidic in case there is damage somewhere that the acid could get into.


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## ant_s

I use Bilberry but tbh that was one I got recommened on another car forum before my days of DW, so I brought it thinking it was the best and brought 5 ltrs of the stuff (wish I hadn't now, got waaaay to much to use)

I only use a dedicated cleaner when the wheels are really mucky, otherwise it's a good pw'ing and a brush with a shampoo mix.


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## West End1981

Chemical Guys Diablo wheel gel is good as i can leave it on the wheel whilst washing the car knowing it wont dry out and cause staining. For stubborn marks I use AG fallout remover. Shifts absolutely anything.


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## Reflectology

BRUNBERG said:


> on my cars i use normal body shampoo as i have one car wearing SV Autobahn and the other wearing Gtechniq C5
> 
> For when i do mates cars etc i use Bilberry, it's an alkali but not strong, i like the fact you have to work it a bit with brushes etc. I generally mix it with IronX too which makes it amazing
> 
> I would be scared of any wheel cleaner which you could spray on a dirty wheel and just PW all the dirt off as it would be too acidic and therefore not really wheel safe


I think Bilberry is around 11ph which is quite strong but I have one made for me at around the same strength and it works stupendously well....but all this depends on the wheel type as well, Scholl Concepts Rim 7 is PH7 and is a cracker....would be interesting to see a test of this and P21s which I may do as I firmly believe that Rim 7 is the best out there which is neutral and just staggering...it even lets you know when to remove as it turns black when its ready....I suppose this is all the dirt absorbed into the gel.....

At first i thought it was expensive at 15quid but so far 3 sets of alloys done and still a fair bit left....roughly looking at around 4quid per car for it at the minute....


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## PrinceClaybar

Megs Hot Rims once a month (if needed) and then Smart Rimwax. 

Weekly wash with water with Sonax Gloss Shampoo, rinse, dry and then Smart Rimwax

I like the Rimwax as it doesn't seem to attract the dust which is an issue in summer where I live.


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## Steampunk

I currently have the wheels (Powdercoated alloys.) on the MINI sealed with Klasse HGSG (X2) & AIO (X1), so a brief go over with shampoo is all they need, but on other cars (Or for prep twice a year.) I use these products:

Bilt-Hamber Surfex HD (Alkaline APC) at 5-20% dilution for 'normal' grime on painted and some alloy wheels; works VERY well!

P21S Wheel Cleaner Gel (Mild Alkaline) for intensive cleaning of delicate wheels

Meguiar's Pro-Detailer Wheel Brightener (Strong acid) at 2:1 as a last ditch attempt to get horrendously dirty painted wheels clean.

Looking to try Sonax Full-Effect now that I'm low on P21S and I've run out of wheel brightener; if it's as effective as they say it may consolidate my supplies. 

Steampunk


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## Nath

I use Bilberry for general everyday wheels and Blue Gel wheel cleaner for neglected wheels that need a little more 'bite'.


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## adlem

On my wheels which are sealed, just PH Neutral shampoo and water

On other vehicles, Chemical Guys Diablo Wheel Gel as it's PH Neutral and cleans really well then they're sealed :thumb:


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## TOGWT

Maxolen UK said:


> Hi Guys,
> 
> as a manufacturer we have seen various comments being made about wheel cleaners on DW and wanted to ask a question.
> 
> This is so we can see why people use the cleaners they do, this is more for our understanding due to seeing threads where we feel possibly mixed messages could be given out.
> 
> What wheel cleaners are people using and why?
> 
> Thanks
> Pat


For cleaning sintered brake dust a neutralized acid cleaner (i.e. IronX or Sonax)
Most detailers know enough not to use any cleaner with a very high (alkaline) or very low (Acidic) pH product for cleaning wheels

For maintenance cleaning a pH neutral cleaner (i.e. P21S)


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## tosh

Sonax Xtreme Full Effect - works every time, cleans better than any other wheel cleaner I've had, and I've tried them all.

Expensive, but cheaper than a refurb on your wheels (peeling lacquer). Since it's 100% safe, why have 4 different strength products? - just use this all the time and buy it in 5 litre cans.

As soon as you see peeling lacquer on your split rims, the refub cost and hassle outweighs any money you saved on a cheaper wheel cleaner.


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## -Raven-

Another sonax user here, but got some wolfs brake duster on order to try!


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## chillly

Interesting thread pat. 

Depends on condition and soiling of the wheels. , So for what its worth imo i start with shampoo and elbow grease then work up to shampoo and apc with non scratch kitchen sponge and so on. Acid cleaners are as a last resort for me especialy if the wheels are in bad condition. The new iron decon products are a god send imo given that the most grime on old wheels is baked on brake dust anyhow. Wheels should have one good solid clean once or twice a year and after that we should choose our wheel sealant wisely. 

Shampoo should then be the only thing we need to use with the odd splash of degreaser or apc mixed in when they get really dirty. Of corse nano products are helping with ease of cleaning. I spend alot of time on wheels as i think they enhance the look of a detailed car. Choosing the right lsp for wheels is imo just as important as choosing your paint lsp.

Good thread pat:thumb:


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## Audriulis

I use Very Cherry (non acid) Wheel cleaner from Autobrite which works best of all non acid cleaners I've tried, and I tried a lot, but I use it only if wheels are not sealed, if yes I use cheap shampoo, for really mucky wheels I use cartec wheel cleaner 1:10 or 1:8, which is strong alkaline and cleans very well


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## mike-g

h2auto said:


> i use bilberry for general everyday wheels


+1 ...


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## Patrickm

chillly said:


> Interesting thread pat.
> 
> Depends on condition and soiling of the wheels. , So for what its worth imo i start with shampoo and elbow grease then work up to shampoo and apc with non scratch kitchen sponge and so on. Acid cleaners are as a last resort for me especialy if the wheels are in bad condition. The new iron decon products are a god send imo given that the most grime on old wheels is baked on brake dust anyhow. Wheels should have one good solid clean once or twice a year and after that we should choose our wheel sealant wisely.
> 
> Shampoo should then be the only thing we need to use with the odd splash of degreaser or apc mixed in when they get really dirty. Of corse nano products are helping with ease of cleaning. I spend alot of time on wheels as i think they enhance the look of a detailed car. Choosing the right lsp for wheels is imo just as important as choosing your paint lsp.
> 
> Good thread pat:thumb:


Thanks, the reason for the thread was due to seeing many people using so many different types of cleaners for wheels and from what I could see there seemed to be a lot mixed messages going out to people viewing what was posted.


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## Prism Detailing

Im currently using Nanotech SST Super Citrus Wheel cleaner (non acid) an had amazin results, probably some of the best out of any products i have tried.

Next would be Chemical Guys Diablio gel, because its a gel it doesnt have any/much run off, allowing you to work the products and no wastage as it run onto the ground.

Say that the demo you showed was interesting with the wheels cleaners as you didnt really have to do much work with them, apply, leave and rinse.....


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## Defined Reflections

I dont believe there is any product out there that can remove genuine baked on brake dust in one hit.
Ive tryed most dedicated wheel cleaners even the acid based ones,and none will remove baked on dust quickly.
I do find wolfs gel good as it sticks on there and you can leave it to do other things then go back rinse and apply again and again,and you can see the wheels getting better with each application.
But they only problem with that is the price its not realy worth while using £10 of wheel cleaner on a £50 valet unless you can charge the customer extra,and normaly on a detailing job the cars are almost always in good condition.
I suppose its a good job that realy bad contaminated wheels are quite rare,and most times the wheels only need to be cleaned with the same shampoo as used on the body,or if its a little harder to shift bilberry or very cherry does the job for me.


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## Grizzle

Prism Detailing said:


> Say that the demo you showed was interesting with the wheels cleaners as you didnt really have to do much work with them, apply, leave and rinse.....


He also sprayed onto his van and we forgot about it for around an hour at least it handnt fully dried either, jetwashed over and it was gone it looks like really good stuff, shame i have near 20 litres of smart wheels left.


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## CraigQQ

i bought a bottle of pats wheel cleaner on sunday.. so will do a review on it when I get a chance..


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## chillly

Prism Detailing said:


> Im currently using Nanotech SST Super Citrus Wheel cleaner (non acid) an had amazin results, probably some of the best out of any products i have tried.
> 
> Next would be Chemical Guys Diablio gel, because its a gel it doesnt have any/much run off, allowing you to work the products and no wastage as it run onto the ground.
> 
> Say that the demo you showed was interesting with the wheels cleaners as you didnt really have to do much work with them, apply, leave and rinse.....


Forgot all about this one mate Nanotech SST Super Citrus Wheel cleaner (non acid) Agreed :thumb:


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## Grizzle

CraigQQ said:


> i bought a bottle of pats wheel cleaner on sunday.. so will do a review on it when I get a chance..


Good man :thumb:


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## guy_92

I tend not to get too worked up about this whole 'ph neutral' business blah blah blah...

I use Smart Wheels on most wheels and if need be Ali Shine which is acidic, I prefer using the Smart Wheels whenever possible as it's nicer to use than Ali Shine. I just follow the instructions anyway and have had no issues at all.


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## Spoony

guy_92 said:


> I tend not to get too worked up about this whole 'ph neutral' business blah blah blah...
> 
> I use Smart Wheels on most wheels and if need be Ali Shine which is acidic, I prefer using the Smart Wheels whenever possible as it's nicer to use than Ali Shine. I just follow the instructions anyway and have had no issues at all.


Remember your full PPE with Ali Shine :doublesho

I use Espuma Revolution which is non acidic so is probably alkaline in some format but I can't confirm that.

On lesser soiled wheels it is Diablo or a shampoo/water mix for me.


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## guy_92

Spoony said:


> Remember your full PPE with Ali Shine :doublesho
> 
> I use Espuma Revolution which is non acidic so is probably alkaline in some format but I can't confirm that.
> 
> On lesser soiled wheels it is Diablo or a shampoo/water mix for me.


Yep full PPE is worn, I don't care if I get funny looks or anything 

I wear nitrile gloves with any wheel cleaner, if I do wheels which tend to cause a lot of 'spray back' when brushing I also wear safety glasses!

What scares me is people who use ALI which is even stronger with no gloves!!!


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## bespoke

Just interested to know if all of you out there are informed by your respective suppliers the real product content and dangers they may pose ? very often most manufacturers market their products very cleverly, claiming that they can do this, that , and the other but also fail to tell you the harm they can do ! just a thought next time your applying your product that go`s airbourne !


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## nickfrog

I do not understand this thread. A properly decontaminated wheel that is then sealed does not need anything else than a tiny bit of car shampoo and a bit of water to come perfectly clean. Why the need for a specific product to do that ? This is an honest question, not a rhetorical one.


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## Patrickm

Nick, not everyone seals wheels and what is exactly sealing the surface of the wheel may not be protecting it any longer and if that is the case then a wheel cleaner may be necessary. 

Sealants do breakdown and stop working.


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## Patrickm

bespoke said:


> Just interested to know if all of you out there are informed by your respective suppliers the real product content and dangers they may pose ? very often most manufacturers market their products very cleverly, claiming that they can do this, that , and the other but also fail to tell you the harm they can do ! just a thought next time your applying your product that go`s airbourne !


Good comment Bespoke and at what cost to either their own or someone else's health is anybody prepared to pay to get the desired result???

The unfortunate thing is what you say does happen and a lot of the time without the user knowing, is this right? Certainly not its crazy to thing somebody else can put somebody else in danger to make an extra few £££££
:doublesho


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## chillly

So pat what is your out come of this fact finding thread? And also what do you intend to do with its content if anything? All threads interest me along with new products and new solutions to problems within the industry:thumb:


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## Patrickm

chillly said:


> So pat what is your out come of this fact finding thread? And also what do you intend to do with its content if anything? All threads interest me along with new products and new solutions to problems within the industry:thumb:


The reason for the thread was to see why people use the wheel cleaners that they do and their reasons for using it.

Many threads I had read on DW regarding this I found that people were maybe not been given the right info initially regarding them, so hopefully this is an informative post and will give people a little more knowledge.


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## chillly

Thats a fair comment pat. Also from this thread and some of your comments and others i think a better label of what any product is needed for and the reasons why and how it works and is needed for such jobs. Something like lets use ix for example ix is used not for cleaning but is used after you have cleaned the wheel of dirt contamination to remove and dissolve iron particles. Not perfect but in general.


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## CraigQQ

nickfrog said:


> I do not understand this thread. A properly decontaminated wheel that is then sealed does not need anything else than a tiny bit of car shampoo and a bit of water to come perfectly clean. Why the need for a specific product to do that ? This is an honest question, not a rhetorical one.


dont you use wheel cleaner to clean the wheels during the decon stage before sealing nick?

most people need to use wheel cleaner on cars they do for other people ect

:thumb:


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## georgeandpeppa

Autosmart Smartwheels great stuff great price.


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## Patrickm

chillly said:


> Thats a fair comment pat. Also from this thread and some of your comments and others i think a better label of what any product is needed for and the reasons why and how it works and is needed for such jobs. Something like lets use ix for example ix is used not for cleaning but is used after you have cleaned the wheel of dirt contamination to remove and dissolve iron particles. Not perfect but in general.


We understanding there to be a little bit of a grey area as well due to one of the ingredients this product contains.

If the product contains the amount of the ingredient which the MSDS states it could do, then it has to be labelled as TOXIC we have been able to find this out by running the data through our chemistry program.:doublesho

We are seeing it everyday that people are being mislead and don't believe they should be :thumb:

As our logo states we are a professional care products company and care is what we do best. (not just cleaning)


----------



## pawlik

Last 5 or 6 years i use only WURTH SaBesto wheel cleaner, its smels terrible, expensive, but work like no other, just spray on wheels and run away (better quick as you can  ) come back after few min., and rinse, often even without rubbing. For me as a professional it very good, a lot of time saving product.


----------



## chch

Maxolen UK said:


> The unfortunate thing is that there are many cowboys out there who claim to have products which are fit for a purpose but in fact are not, this constant lust for financial gain and want of jumping on the band wagon spoils it for every creditable company who do it right and have developed precision products which are fit for the job they are designed for.


Anything specific ? If you know who they are, you should tell us, so we don't support them and protect our valuables.


----------



## Patrickm

chch said:


> Anything specific ? If you know who they are, you should tell us, so we don't support them and protect our valuables.


I'm not running this thread to name and shame its simply as a matter of course to find out why people use the type of wheel cleaners they do.

From what we have seen people use all kinds of different things to clean wheels and a lot of the information can be misleading.

I have been running tests on non acidic wheel cleaners as many seem to be the wheel cleaner of choice and I will be posting my findings :thumb:

The test will be done Non Acidic v's Acidic and is done not to denigrate a brand or product but to show that sometimes a user is not always told the full story, Maxolen products used will be named and the other brand products used will only be referred to as Acid or Alkali.

Marketing can be very misleading as can the claims that are used to sell products and this is what I want to show from seeing how this thread has developed. :thumb:


----------



## Bratwurst

I'm really looking forward to this


----------



## ITHAQVA

Once cleaned properly with either Iron-x or Wolfs Deironizer & sealed with Wolfs Rim shieled any ph neutral shampoo will do, then every couple of months or so a quick go over with Deironizer or Iron-X just to make sure :thumb: 

Ive noticed once you've fully decontaminated & sealed my wheels they are actually easy to maintain, even BMW wheels :doublesho


----------



## Ad.sk

Shampoo, SV Wheel and Iron-x or Wolfs Deironizer, protection: SV autobahn, C5, Wolfs Rim Shield


----------



## Dingo2002

ITHAQVA said:


> Once cleaned properly with either Iron-x or Wolfs Deironizer & sealed with Wolfs Rim shieled any ph neutral shampoo will do, then every couple of months or so a quick go over with Deironizer or Iron-X just to make sure :thumb:
> 
> Ive noticed once you've fully decontaminated & sealed my wheels they are actually easy to maintain, even BMW wheels :doublesho


+1 to this. I have been known to use Wonder Wheels on severely contaminated wheels where wolf's hasn't been able to fully clean the dust but it's rare and the surface is always fully rinsed and re-washed afterwards.

Once done and sealed with a sealant like Rim Sheild or a wax, so long as they are kept on top of they should be easy enough to clean up


----------



## Sti_Brumby

I use plan old car shampoo!:thumb:


----------



## The Doctor

I use the stuff from the local hair dressers that they use for perms :lol:


----------



## The_Bouncer

Maxolen UK said:


> *I'm not running this thread to name and shame its simply as a matter of course to find out why people use the type of wheel cleaners they do.*From what we have seen people use all kinds of different things to clean wheels and a lot of the information can be misleading.
> 
> I have been running tests on non acidic wheel cleaners as many seem to be the wheel cleaner of choice and I will be posting my findings :thumb:
> 
> *The test will be done Non Acidic v's Acidic and is done not to denigrate a brand or product but to show that sometimes a user is not always told the full story, Maxolen products used will be named and the other brand products used will only be referred to as Acid or Alkali.*
> Marketing can be very misleading as can the claims that are used to sell products and this is what I want to show from seeing how this thread has developed. :thumb:


Hi Pat - good that your doing this and of course you have to tread a careful line about want you say on a public forum about a third party Product A & Product B.

My only concern is that by doing this all you'll be able to prove is how your product works against either an Acid or Alkali & in turn maybe cause a lot of uneccesary 'speculations' about Product A or Product B ?

As ultimately the selling % of these A.N.Other product will not change

I'm just wary that other than tests above nothing will be proved either way ?


----------



## ITHAQVA

The Doctor said:


> I use the stuff from the local hair dressers that they use for perms :lol:


Doest it keep your wheels round & curly


----------



## The Doctor

ITHAQVA said:


> Doest it keep your wheels round & curly


 so that's why my spokes have gone all wavy!

Sent from my HTC using Tapatalk


----------



## angelw

The Doctor said:


> I use the stuff from the local hair dressers that they use for perms :lol:


Same active indgredient that is in most of the colour change wheel cleaners,iron decontaminaters!


----------



## Patrickm

*Test test test*

Guys as we noticed there appears to be a lot of confusion as to which wheel cleaners are in fact safe cleaners, so we decided to do a test and here are the first results of our tests.

The first test was done only on dedicated cleaners which are suitable for wheels, but my next test will incorporate the fashionable use of fall out removers which are being used for such a task, which I found very confusing but that's another story.

So what do we have to base this analysis on, well we have 4 alkali products and 3 acidic products all from different manufacturers.

To be honest the products we have with in the test are what we know people are using on a daily/regular basis. The issue here is the majority are marketed as them being SAFE very misleading to the end user but you can decide for yourself.

Many suppliers/producers claimed that the cleaners were user safe and also safe for the purpose.

Each of the products we measured out equally into a stainless steel beakers and then a tin foil baking tray was cut in to equally measured pieces.
(normal house hold tin foil would not have been suitable for this test as it is too thin)



















Reason for using foil?

Well most wheels are alloy and tend to have either powder coat or clear coat on them, a lot of the time this can be damaged by curbing a wheel or chipping the clear coat which then reveals the actual alloy the wheel is made of.










Wheel cleaners if they are safe will not damage this, so we thought what better test than to use raw metal. ( bare in mind metal is a lot tougher than clear coat )










Once the foil had been placed in the beakers the lids were then rested on top, the reason for this is to emulate the way a cleaner can get under the lacquer and be working away.










Literally within a matter of seconds we could see which were the products to keep an eye on.





































I then thought a fair test would be to leave the products for 30 mins just to see how safe these really are, should someone get phone call, emergency or some form of distraction to take them away from the job.

:doublesho:doublesho:doublesho I then returned to view what I can only explain as crazy results :doublesho:doublesho:doublesho

First of all the ACIDIC products:








:doublesho








:doublesho :doublesho










Now for the ALKALI products: ( Acid Free Cleaners )





































Do you think it's right products should do this when your led to believe they are safe?

People do think if a product contains acid it must be dangerous but as you can see this is not always the case as some alkali products can be a lot worse, and even when you think your buying safe are you really!

Clean up time :lol:


----------



## Sti_Brumby

Good read


----------



## Bratwurst

Brilliant test !!! :thumb:


----------



## Patrickm

Sti_Brumby said:


> Good read


Thanks STI,

hope you found it interesting. :thumb:


----------



## Patrickm

wee_green_mini said:


> Brilliant test !!! :thumb:


Hope it gave you something to think about :thumb:


----------



## Bratwurst

I know you can't name the different products, as it would be unprofessional to kick off some sort of product war, but most of us with half a brain know which products are clearly very potent indeed and will dissolve the foil like you've shown, the thing is which ones are we told are 'safe' but clearly arent?...
(rhetorical question by the way, and I know this is the point of your test)

Like you say, makes you think!

An eye opener to say the least...


----------



## Deanvtec

nickfrog said:


> I do not understand this thread. A properly decontaminated wheel that is then sealed does not need anything else than a tiny bit of car shampoo and a bit of water to come perfectly clean. Why the need for a specific product to do that ? This is an honest question, not a rhetorical one.


Its easy, some cars like Lexus ISF's etc even if sealed which makes no difference at all, need wheel cleaners full stop. Brake dust is a huge problem on them, if the wheels aren't washed weekly on these on a daily driver then within a month or 2 no amount of shampoo will shift the brake dust, most "dedicated" wheels cleaners are laughed of by these wheels. Came across a couple of other cars including Nissan GTR's etc that also would laugh of shampoo even if they have been sealed.


----------



## Patrickm

wee_green_mini said:


> I know you can't name the different products, as it would be unprofessional to kick off some sort of product war, but most of us with half a brain know which products are clearly very potent indeed and will dissolve the foil like you've shown, the thing is which ones are we told are 'safe' but clearly arent?...
> (rhetorical question by the way, and I know this is the point of your test)
> 
> Like you say, makes you think!
> 
> An eye opener to say the least...


My point is more to show the dangers of both acid and alkali as companies are misleading the public telling the end user something is safe when in fact it isn't.

Yes people know acids can be dangerous but for companies to mislead the public by saying this is an acid free wheel cleaner and then to say for that reason its safe is just wrong, especially when their health is possibly more at risk never mind the negative effects these products can have on the surface.

All I want to do is let people know sometimes things are not always fun and fluffy and to really look at what they are using. We all want nice clean and shiny looking cars but at what cost to the user are we wanting to achieve this?

We use ******* processes when manufacturing which incur additional costs but by doing this it allows us to send out high quality products at a fair price which are great at dealing with the jobs they are intended for and at no detriment to the users health or the environment.

Some companies cut corners and hide things which could possibly put off a prospective customer, hence sometimes why things are not labelled correctly and as a result the financial gain of the seller is put before the safety of the user which is wrong I'm sure you would agree :thumb:

Informed choices is what an end user should be able to make :thumb:


----------



## james_death

Nicely done, the trays were a great idea....:thumb:

Certainly looks like frankenstien's lab there...:lol:

Did the solutions leave any marking in the containers???


----------



## Patrickm

james_death said:


> Nicely done, the trays were a great idea....:thumb:
> 
> Certainly looks like frankenstien's lab there...:lol:
> 
> Did the solutions leave any marking in the containers???


Thanks

Yes some had left staining in the pots, some more than others :doublesho

The solution which looks green was in fact a totally clear transparent liquid as it was poured in to the beaker and reacted straight away, this was the worst followed closely by a couple of others. :thumb:


----------



## CP996

I haven't found a need for a specific wheel cleaner- I just use Iron-X as it lifts the heavy metal particles that are likely to cause pitting. No scrubbing required.


----------



## Patrickm

CP996 said:


> I haven't found a need for a specific wheel cleaner- I just use Iron-X as it lifts the heavy metal particles that are likely to cause pitting. No scrubbing required.


OK keep an eye on future tests as we will be looking into fallout removers being used as wheel cleaners :thumb:


----------



## The Doctor

We use this kind of test all the time to demonstrate how safe Hazsafe is on bare alloy surfaces compared to other products. Some of them really react badly to aluminum. I actually use Hazsafe on my own wheels for regular cleaning the very reason you mentioned regarding product getting behind scuffs. This is a really good guide for anybody using AS wheel cleaners I believe the confusion regarding wheel cleaners is the reason Autosmart produced this guide to make sure people fully understand which product should be used http://www.autosmart.co.uk/images/PDF Folder/Autosmart Wheel Cleaning Guide 09.pdf

The clear product in your test is interesting. It seemed to be more highly corrosive than the rest. I can only think of one clear non-acid wheel cleaner off the top of my head.


----------



## Patrickm

The Doctor said:


> We use this kind of test all the time to demonstrate how safe Hazsafe is on bare alloy surfaces compared to other products. Some of them really react badly to aluminum. I actually use Hazsafe on my own wheels for regular cleaning the very reason you mentioned regarding product getting behind scuffs. This is a really good guide for anybody using AS wheel cleaners I believe the confusion regarding wheel cleaners is the reason Autosmart produced this guide to make sure people fully understand which product should be used http://www.autosmart.co.uk/images/PDF Folder/Autosmart Wheel Cleaning Guide 09.pdf
> 
> The clear product in your test is interesting. It seemed to be more highly corrosive than the rest. I can only think of one clear non-acid wheel cleaner off the top of my head.


Both cleaners which started the test as a clear liquid were both Acidic, one turned green the minute it hit the beaker, obviously different types of acid as the results clearly show (one a lot safer than the other) :doublesho


----------



## Patrickm

angelw said:


> Same active indgredient that is in most of the colour change wheel cleaners,iron decontaminaters!


Again questionable regarding the safety elements but will have more details once tests are complete :thumb:


----------



## bespoke

chillly said:


> So pat what is your out come of this fact finding thread? And also what do you intend to do with its content if anything? All threads interest me along with new products and new solutions to problems within the industry:thumb:


Just doing my bit to help !


----------



## chillly

bespoke said:


> Just doing my bit to help !


Me too


----------



## chillly

Maxolen UK said:


> My point is more to show the dangers of both acid and alkali as companies are misleading the public telling the end user something is safe when in fact it isn't.
> 
> Yes people know acids can be dangerous but for companies to mislead the public by saying this is an acid free wheel cleaner and then to say for that reason its safe is just wrong, especially when their health is possibly more at risk never mind the negative effects these products can have on the surface.
> 
> All I want to do is let people know sometimes things are not always fun and fluffy and to really look at what they are using. We all want nice clean and shiny looking cars but at what cost to the user are we wanting to achieve this?
> 
> We use ******* processes when manufacturing which incur additional costs but by doing this it allows us to send out high quality products at a fair price which are great at dealing with the jobs they are intended for and at no detriment to the users health or the environment.
> 
> Some companies cut corners and hide things which could possibly put off a prospective customer, hence sometimes why things are not labelled correctly and as a result the financial gain of the seller is put before the safety of the user which is wrong I'm sure you would agree :thumb:
> 
> Informed choices is what an end user should be able to make :thumb:


Fantastic thread Pat and great info hope you carry on mate. Im a bit confused Pat why you are reluctant to show the name of the products? When you consider we see umpteen posts a day on lsps dressings etc etc and alike showing us all which one looks the best and the worst. Lets be honest Pat we all know that smoking drinking and Speeding can be dangerous but we still do.

Would this thread stop me buying certain products, maybe maybe not but im being very honest i want to know more so i can have the knowledge to make my own decision on all things in life. Thanks again Pat Chillly

P.S if you have a mo Pat check out Ian from finer details he did a great wax test with great findings and is well worth reading. ( he did not hide the names of the products ) People will always make there own decisions regardless of what they see.


----------



## Jesse74

chillly said:


> Fantastic thread Pat and great info hope you carry on mate. Im a bit confused Pat why you are reluctant to show the name of the products? When you consider we see umpteen posts a day on lsps dressings etc etc and alike showing us all which one looks the best and the worst. Lets be honest Pat we all know that smoking drinking and Speeding can be dangerous but we still do.
> 
> Would this thread stop me buying certain products, maybe maybe not but im being very honest i want to know more so i can have the knowledge to make my own decision on all things in life. Thanks again Pat Chillly
> 
> P.S if you have a mo Pat check out Ian from finer details he did a great wax test with great findings and is well worth reading. ( he did not hide the names of the products ) People will always make there own decisions regardless of what they see.


Because for a manufacturer to do these kinds of tests and say, " 'X' product burned the heck out of the tin foil, but mine didn't, so it's safer!" would be considered as slander.


----------



## Patrickm

Wolf's Chemicals;3057981 said:


> Because for a manufacturer to do these kinds of tests and say, " 'X' product burned the heck out of the tin foil, but mine didn't, so it's safer!" would be considered as slander.


With all due respect slander is the spoken or transitory form of defamation of character, a legal term that refers to a falsehood presented as true which could harm the reputation of a person or entity. Factual information is not classed as slander as a fact is fact and falsehood is actually made up/fabricated information that is passed off as fact but lets not go there. 

Regarding the test this was not to show that a certain product does not melt tin foil I think your missing the point  but in fact to highlight that there are many products people use and whether they are of an acidic of basic (alkali) makeup can cause just as much damage as one another.

If you read the thread you will see that from people's comments they are using something's which are being mis-marketed to an end user by passing them off as been safe when as I'm sure you will agree are not.

The thread is intended to provide the end user with as much information regarding what to look out for as possible. The very least any manufacturer/reseller can do is supply the end user with all the information needed for them then to make an informed decision. The customer can then decide as to whether they want to use something which could cause possible harm or injury in order to get a nice shiny car, but not to be given this information in the first place is just wrong.

This is a legal requirement if a manufacturer or reseller is to sell a product to an end user then they have to declare the safety elements and should never be over looked nor should it be treated as something secretive like some gentlemen's club :wall: Our philosophy is to look after our customers and they in turn will look after us, their safety should never come second to financial reward but maybe that's where we differ :thumb:


----------



## Spoony

I think it is a great test Pat, it just goes to show that we should be taking more care when looking at the effects of chemicals and not taking it on face value. Afterall this isn't playdoh we are messing about with it is real chemicals that can have a real impact on the lives of the users. Seems a bit grim maybe but constant exposure could lead to adverse effects.

The reactions are quite something.


----------



## Patrickm

Spoony said:


> I think it is a great test Pat, it just goes to show that we should be taking more care when looking at the effects of chemicals and not taking it on face value. Afterall this isn't playdoh we are messing about with it is real chemicals that can have a real impact on the lives of the users. Seems a bit grim maybe but constant exposure could lead to adverse effects.
> 
> The reactions are quite something.


Thank you spoony this is exactly my point, informed choices are what everyone should have and not masked by marketing :thumb:


----------



## Patrickm

chillly said:


> Fantastic thread Pat and great info hope you carry on mate. Im a bit confused Pat why you are reluctant to show the name of the products? When you consider we see umpteen posts a day on lsps dressings etc etc and alike showing us all which one looks the best and the worst. Lets be honest Pat we all know that smoking drinking and Speeding can be dangerous but we still do.
> 
> Would this thread stop me buying certain products, maybe maybe not but im being very honest i want to know more so i can have the knowledge to make my own decision on all things in life. Thanks again Pat Chillly
> 
> P.S if you have a mo Pat check out Ian from finer details he did a great wax test with great findings and is well worth reading. ( he did not hide the names of the products ) People will always make there own decisions regardless of what they see.


Chilly,

This thread was done more for our interest to see why people were using what they do.

As the thread has developed we could see many mixed messages given out regarding safety.

We feel it would be wrong to sit back and not highlight to people possible dangers and is done not with any malice or intent to denigrate and brand or product, but to help both the end user understand risks and what to look out for and also help resellers who are not fully aware of their responsibilities regarding safety and get more information as to what they need to be asking suppliers/producers, lets not forget they are the ones who are also at risk legally :thumb:

Thanks
Pat


----------



## Patrickm

bespoke said:


> Just doing my bit to help !


Thanks Darren.

I know you understand where I'm coming from with this as I know what you had to use in companies you had worked for before starting out on your own.

Thanks :thumb:
Pat


----------



## chillly

Maxolen UK said:


> Chilly,
> 
> This thread was done more for our interest to see why people were using what they do.
> 
> As the thread has developed we could see many mixed messages given out regarding safety.
> 
> We feel it would be wrong to sit back and not highlight to people possible dangers and is done not with any malice or intent to denigrate and brand or product, but to help both the end user understand risks and what to look out for and also help resellers who are not fully aware of their responsibilities regarding safety and get more information as to what they need to be asking suppliers/producers, lets not forget they are the ones who are also at risk legally :thumb:
> 
> Thanks
> Pat


Pat i enjoy threads and debates such as these due to the fact that the outcome is safer and better products for us all. And is that not why we are all on here:thumb:


----------



## Patrickm

chillly said:


> Pat i enjoy threads and debates such as these due to the fact that the outcome is safer and better products for us all. And is that not why we are all on here:thumb:


Totally agree open forums DW included are somewhere you should be able to go and ask an honest question and get an honest answer :thumb:

We see DW as a place to give out information in relation to our products and one of the channels people can use in order to ask questions and find out more :thumb:


----------



## Matt_Nic

Sadly I dont have time to look through all 11 pages. 

My guess though is quite a few people are raving about Bilberry?
Any one say AG custom cleaner?

Tbh, I dont actually see the point of a "safe" cleaner. WTF is a safe cleaner? How is something that doesnt have any kind of bite to it going to make an impact on a wheel caked in brake dust?

I've used the above 2 extensively and found they're as good as a chocolate teapot when it comes to cleaning my wheels. 

My favourite product so far is simple - Megs hot rims - faultless performance every time. 
Yes, we all know it's like toxic waste but if you use it properly it's harmless. Spray it on, leave for a minute or 2, thoroughly rinse off. I do that on my wheels which have kerb marks gallore and paint flake, not laquer - PAINT flake and yet this stuff, if used right, doesnt touch it. 

In fact, on a number of occasions I have used my bare hands to just rub it into the nooks of the spokes and, sometimes been a bit unlucky and got spray back in my face/eyes.
Guess what - no burns, perfect eyesight and lovely clean wheels!


----------



## Bratwurst

Elf n safety, pah


----------



## Matt_Nic

I laugh at people who wear gloves to handle mild chemicals. MTFU!


----------



## Guest

I have a permanent etch mark on one of my eyes, due to stupidly using Megs Hot Rims in windy weather, because I was not wearing any eye protection.
I've also experienced too much drying of skin through using car cleaning chemicals, including just shampoos, without wearing gloves.

Fortunately, sense did eventually leak through my thick skull and I now wear gloves for all cleaning jobs and eye protection when required.


----------



## Patrickm

Matt_Nic said:


> I laugh at people who wear gloves to handle mild chemicals. MTFU!


Matt a little concerning to be honest but that's besides the point your the one who has made the decision to use the said wheel cleaner the way you do but if you do use it on a regular basis here are a few things to consider which the producer themselves tell you to bare in mind. :thumb:

MATERIAL SAFETY DATA SHEET G95, Hot Rims® All Wheel Cleaner (20-45E): G9524 11/17/10
_________________________________________________________________________________________________
Page 2 of 7
3.2 POTENTIAL HEALTH EFFECTS
Eye Contact:
Corrosive (Eye Burns): Signs/symptoms may include cloudy appearance of the cornea, chemical burns, severe pain, tearing,
ulcerations, significantly impaired vision or complete loss of vision.
Skin Contact:
Corrosive (Skin Burns): Signs/symptoms may include localized redness, swelling, itching, intense pain, blistering, ulceration, and
tissue destruction.
Inhalation:
Respiratory Tract Corrosion: Signs/symptoms may include nasal discharge, severe nose and throat pain, chest tightness and pain,
coughing up blood, wheezing, and breathlessness, possibly progressing to respiratory failure.
Ingestion:
Gastrointestinal Corrosion: Signs/symptoms may include severe mouth, throat and abdominal pain; nausea; vomiting; and diarrhea;
blood in the feces and/or vomitus may also be seen.
May be absorbed following ingestion and cause target organ effects.
Target Organ Effects:
Prolonged or repeated exposure may cause:
Kidney/Bladder Effects: Signs/symptoms may include changes in urine production, abdominal or lower back pain,
increased protein in urine, increased blood urea nitrogen (BUN), blood in urine, and painful urination.


----------



## Defined Reflections

How can you test on a baking tray and be sure this has the same affect on alloys? alloy wheels are made up from lots of differant grades of alloy.
Like i said im my other post i dont think there is a wheel cleaner on the market that can clean *baked* on brake dust

The videos i have seen from manufacturers claiming removal of baked on brakedust in nealry one application is misleading


----------



## Patrickm

Defined Reflections said:


> How can you test on a baking tray and be sure this has the same affect on alloys? alloy wheels are made up from lots of differant grades of alloy.
> Like i said im my other post i dont think there is a wheel cleaner on the market that can clean *baked* on brake dust
> 
> The videos i have seen from manufacturers claiming removal of baked on brakedust in nealry one application is misleading


Your right there are different grades of alloy and a lot of the time some producers also add other metals to the mix.

This test was to show that both acid and alkali are in some cases as volatile as one another and was not to show cleaning ability.

With you being Yorkshire based if you are near Leeds next week let me know and we can arrange for you to come to Maxolen or alternatively I will come to you to do a demo of our wheel cleaner ?


----------



## tzotzo

So what is the purpose of this test? 
Lots of products destroyed the alu foil.
But we don't clean alu can, but our rims. 
From what i see wheel cleaners were used neat and not diluted as per instructions.

Alu tin is used for soda drinks, and do that very good.
But if you put a piece of organic material in it, it gets destroyed.


you get my point


----------



## Patrickm

tzotzo said:


> So what is the purpose of this test?
> Lots of products destroyed the alu foil.
> But we don't clean alu can, but our rims.
> From what i see wheel cleaners were used neat and not diluted as per instructions.
> 
> Alu tin is used for soda drinks, and do that very good.
> But if you put a piece of organic material in it, it gets destroyed.
> 
> you get my point


Aluminium is a special kind of material when it comes to oxidation. Unlike, for example, iron, it doesn't oxidize all the way through. Only the surface of aluminium oxidizes, forming a coat just a few atoms thick. That protects the aluminium from any further oxidation. So the amount of oxidation on a piece of foil vs. any piece of aluminium with the same surface area is almost exactly the same. But if you follow the link below which was earlier on the thread you will see the reason for doing this test.

http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?p=3045969#poststop


----------



## tzotzo

Maxolen UK said:


> The reason for the thread was to see why people use the wheel cleaners that they do and their reasons for using it.
> 
> Many threads I had read on DW regarding this I found that people were maybe not been given the right info initially regarding them, so hopefully this is an informative post and will give people a little more knowledge.


so there is no real reason to do any lab test in this thread.

From what I see you 've got proper tools and a lab to make an conclusive and accurate test. Get a set of alloys, cut them into pieces, use the correct dilution ratio and show us the results.


----------



## chrisc

So are your data sheets available on request pat.


----------



## Ste T

late to the party on this one,

We have all seen what cola can do to a penny, but yet Cola is the number 1 selling drink if different formats all over the world, and yet we still drink it! 

so im not letting a "scare tactic", stop me using my wheel cleaner phase me...(and i wont be drinking it or getting into my eye as i have something called common sense. )


----------



## Patrickm

chrisc said:


> So are your data sheets available on request pat.


Chris,

They most certainly are as they always have been to our trade customers. :thumb:


----------



## Patrickm

tzotzo said:


> so there is no real reason to do any lab test in this thread.
> 
> From what I see you 've got proper tools and a lab to make an conclusive and accurate test. Get a set of alloys, cut them into pieces, use the correct dilution ratio and show us the results.


TZO your missing the point of the post entirely, this is to show both the end user and the reseller why the correct information needs to be given out with a product and not get blinded by marketing hype.

Lab tests are not necessary as development of our own products is done with precision.

Regarding our own products we understand exactly what the dangers are should the product actually have any and are fully aware and understand our responsibilities in relaying this information to an end user directly or furnishing our resellers with that information so they are able to do the same when they are dealing with their customers.


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## The Doctor

Maxolen UK said:


> Chris,
> 
> They most certainly are as they always have been to our trade customers. :thumb:


Where would one go about downloading your msds from?


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## Patrickm

The Doctor said:


> Where would one go about downloading your msds from?


All trade customers of ours are furnished with them for the products we supply them, but I think it highly unlikely we supply you anything :lol:

But maybe a few of your customers may also use product from us so you can ask them :thumb:


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## The Doctor

Maxolen UK said:


> All trade customers of ours are furnished with them for the products we supply them, but I think it highly unlikely we supply you anything :lol:
> 
> But maybe a few of your customers may also use product from us so you can ask them :thumb:


Lol it was a genuine question rather than anything to do with competition purposes!

It just seems a bit strange that you have a thread running with lots of health and safety talk on your behalf but you don't have msds sheets readily available to download from your site.

I believe all manufacturers should should have them freely available for everyone and anybody to download. You never know who may end up with your product in their hands once it leaves your possesion.

In all fairness I'm a car cleaning enthusiast and have products from other manufacturers because I enjoy experimenting. I may end up with one of your products at some point yet won't have any idea what I'm handling because they are not freely available to download.

Sent from my HTC using Tapatalk


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## spursfan

nickfrog said:


> I do not understand this thread. A properly decontaminated wheel that is then sealed does not need anything else than a tiny bit of car shampoo and a bit of water to come perfectly clean. Why the need for a specific product to do that ? This is an honest question, not a rhetorical one.


You have to clean the wheel first Nick, before sealing it.
Like most on here, you and i probably used a dedicated wheel cleaner at the first stage, then polished and finally protect the wheels with whatever you fancy.
Then, as you point out, it's a case of snowfoam and brushes to bring them up to new again.

Kev


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