# Is Diesel going too far?



## jimmy669966 (Sep 25, 2011)

BMW are introducing a 550d (actually a 3.0 litre with three turbochargers) with 385bhp and an average claimed mpg of 44 on a combined cycle. 

Whilst I can understand to a certain extent the attraction of the power without the fuel bill surely the whole point of Diesel is it provides a respectable turn of speed whilst being very frugal. Let's be honest if you drive it like a 385bhp car is supposed to be driven it will be a HELL of a lot less than 44mpg.

If you want a economical car buy a "normal" diesel if you want a powerful car pushing close to 400bhp then surely you're a bit of a "petrol" head and a diesel is the wrong choice.

What do you guys think?


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## Ross (Apr 25, 2007)

I am more interested in knowing how they have got three turbos to work together.


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## alan_mcc (Oct 28, 2008)

385bhp, three turbos and 44 miles to a gallon.
I have over 330 *less* bhp than that and I struggle to get 44 miles to the gallon.

The three turbos is a bit, mental, but if it works then it works.. Modern diesels are seriously impressive :thumb:


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## TheGav (Feb 11, 2011)

TORQUE...

Imagine


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## Shinyvec (Feb 12, 2010)

Whiplash on every drive, yes please


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## GR33N (Apr 5, 2009)

jimmy669966 said:


> BMW are introducing a 550d (actually a 3.0 litre with three turbochargers) with 385bhp and an average claimed mpg of 44 on a combined cycle.
> 
> Whilst I can understand to a certain extent the attraction of the power without the fuel bill surely the whole point of Diesel is it provides a respectable turn of speed whilst being very frugal. Let's be honest if you drive it like a 385bhp car is supposed to be driven it will be a HELL of a lot less than 44mpg.
> 
> ...


VED and CO2 id guess is the main reason :thumb:


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## jimmy669966 (Sep 25, 2011)

Ross said:


> I am more interested in knowing how they have got three turbos to work together.


It's two traditional turbos and an electrically assisted turbo. Haven't red up on it but i _think_ at high revs the third turbo will force air in to the two traditional turbos to increase the boost they supply. Also as it's electrical there will be no lag in it supplying the additional blow to the other two.


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## Trip tdi (Sep 3, 2008)

Three turbos, then they will make it four turbos, them BMWS will go like stink specially when they are chipped, even standard they will be quick.

How can three turbos work in a car, BMW'S are seriously stepping up the game on their engines.


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## Ross (Apr 25, 2007)

jimmy669966 said:


> It's two traditional turbos and an electrically assisted turbo. Haven't red up on it but i _think_ at high revs the third turbo will force air in to the two traditional turbos to increase the boost they supply. Also as it's electrical there will be no lag in it supplying the additional blow to the other two.


Good idea but I can see them having lots of problems with it.


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## PugIain (Jun 28, 2006)

I have one turbo,136bhp and 340nm and it does me.


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## andy665 (Nov 1, 2005)

And it's not coming to the UK


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## Trip tdi (Sep 3, 2008)

I have one turbo as well, pulls well, but the cars old, so not up to scratch with the new ones on the market and thats a fact, but three turbos, i wonder how that will work, i assume it's going to be electronically injected fuel with the ECU picking the turbo timing and spooling, so on high rpm all three turbos will kicking in across the power band, one small on e for pulling away, middle one 2,000 to 3,000 rpm and over the third one will kick in, i;m only guessing here, i can't see all three working on 20 mph.

So on kickdown from 0 to the acceleration, i assume all three will kicking in time, that will be some serious power and torque, that will pull you back in the seat.


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## jimmy669966 (Sep 25, 2011)

andy665 said:


> And it's not coming to the UK


It most certainly is!

We are just getting the rear wheel drive version though, not the 4WD X-Drive version.


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## greenwagon (Dec 31, 2008)

My wrxd is amazing bit of kit 
Remapped to 180+ 400nm of torque 1/2gear waste of time 3/4/5 fantastic 2-4000 revs 
When booting it can drop to 41mpg but when long distance can get 49mpg 
Like for like performance of my 250bhp Subaru but twice the mpg 

Turbo diesel is the way forward 

No brainer


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## Modmedia (Jul 25, 2008)

Can they make it sound good?


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## Trip tdi (Sep 3, 2008)

Modmedia said:


> Can they make it sound good?


I;m sure there will a nice sound to it, i think the pull and power will impress more than the noise, but i think this will race circles around a subaru impreza.


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## Jace (Oct 26, 2005)

We're getting it in the x5, x6 , just not the 4x4 550d.

I'm back in my old mk4 GTI diesel, that's 209bhp & 310torqs, & I'd forgotten about that rush of torq feeling..


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## NickP (Nov 20, 2005)

291bhp + 694nm + 46mpg = 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## dann2707 (Mar 25, 2011)

jimmy669966 said:


> It's two traditional turbos and an electrically assisted turbo. Haven't red up on it but i _think_ at high revs the third turbo will force air in to the two traditional turbos to increase the boost they supply.


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## robertdon777 (Nov 3, 2005)

Yes, totally pointless. If you can afford one at circa £50k the fuel bill shouldn't be a worry. They are only building them because if they don't audi and Merc will.

It will be fast yes, but will it drive like a Ford racing puma - no. For that reason I'm Out!


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## Trip tdi (Sep 3, 2008)

Jace said:


> We're getting it in the x5, x6 , just not the 4x4 550d.
> 
> I'm back in my old mk4 GTI diesel, that's 209bhp & 310torqs, & I'd forgotten about that rush of torq feeling..


Is that golf mk4 150 you have, 209 bhp, whos that been chipped by, plus any other power enhancements you have added to make it 209bhp, that is serious chipping there, normally they go to 190 bhp, but with a aggressive map they push out 197 to 198 bhp, but they shift like hell when they are chipped, i;ve been in one, the 6 speed gearbox version with the wooden dash.


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## The Cueball (Feb 8, 2007)

I see and hear all these big figures all the time with the new diesels... but they can still never keep up... so what gives!?!?!?

not looking for a fight... just asking... 

:thumb:


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## PugIain (Jun 28, 2006)

The Cueball said:


> I see and hear all these big figures all the time with the new diesels... but they can still never keep up... so what gives!?!?!?
> 
> not looking for a fight... just asking...
> 
> :thumb:


Ive discovered driving a car as sexy as mine you dont need to go fast.People cant see you have good taste if you do.I leave going fast to the Audi/VW herd


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## robertdon777 (Nov 3, 2005)

The Cueball said:


> I see and hear all these big figures all the time with the new diesels... but they can still never keep up... so what gives!?!?!?
> 
> not looking for a fight... just asking...
> 
> :thumb:


Big torque figures count for nothing in an out and out race. Then its all about power (hp) and weight along with gearing. Which is why a tractor is very slow.


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## The Cueball (Feb 8, 2007)

PugIain said:


> Ive discovered driving a car as sexy as mine you dont need to go fast.People cant see you have good taste if you do.I leave going fast to the Audi/VW herd


obviously that happens in your pug...  :argie::argie::argie:

I'm talking specifically about the morons that charge up to your rear bumper on the motorway, so you twitch your right foot, and they can't keep up... :lol:

also had a guy going on and on about his re chipped 5 series, mega torque, mega fast... blah blah blah... my XKR left him for dead (closed road mu lord)

now either they are BSing, or there is something I don't get... I.e. how can't these "big" figures relate to real life...

:thumb:

<typed as the above got posted.... cheers>


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## Trip tdi (Sep 3, 2008)

The Cueball said:


> I see and hear all these big figures all the time with the new diesels... but they can still never keep up... so what gives!?!?!?
> 
> not looking for a fight... just asking...
> 
> :thumb:


Diesels depends which car it is, if its a merc cls 350 cdi as a example, that will out run a mondeo st.

With diesels now, they have the power and torque, but you get the mpg on your side, they have moved on big times from the ford sierra diesel days.

But for pleasure and the sound, the honda v tec's in the civic type r plus the accord type r, always get my pulses racing, amazing engines, with out the fuss of turbo chargers.


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## jimmy669966 (Sep 25, 2011)

The Cueball said:


> I see and hear all these big figures all the time with the new diesels... but they can still never keep up... so what gives!?!?!?
> 
> not looking for a fight... just asking...
> 
> :thumb:


I assume you're talking about examples such as the 335i vs 335d.

The reason is because the 335d is as fast/quicker as far as elasticity is concerned i.e. 40-70mph, because of torque. But in a standing start using the full rev range at full throttle horse power will always win in a straight line drag. Also a diesel equivalent model is about 50kg heaver than it's petrol counter part so this also has a part to play from a standing start.


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## Derekh929 (Aug 28, 2011)

This is all a game with BMW to prove they are the best with engines and to win the annual gong, have to say 350 D sounds like a dream made in heaven all the Torque, someone said if you can afford £50K why worry about fuel, well if you look at the fact most are leased and company cars, also the modern desiel is so good now, have to say as for 3 turbo's you will find this will arrive in Petrol engines very soon so bring it on i say more engineering at top end of market will mean better at lower end for me.


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## Jace (Oct 26, 2005)

Trip tdi said:


> Is that golf mk4 150 you have, 209 bhp, whos that been chipped by, plus any other power enhancements you have added to make it 209bhp, that is serious chipping there, normally they go to 190 bhp, but with a aggressive map they push out 197 to 198 bhp, but they shift like hell when they are chipped, i;ve been in one, the 6 speed gearbox version with the wooden dash.


Yep 150tdi

It was mine once, it's now my 65yr old mums:thumb: (Lupo is having work, so I'm borrowing it for a while)

I had a jabba map on & it was running 195, sold it to my parents, then since my dads spent quite a wedge on it, that's the latest figures he told me when I collected it, i think its had injectors, hybrid turbo & lots of other bits since I owned it.


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## Trip tdi (Sep 3, 2008)

Diesels are the way forward, especially when you have the power and mpg on your side, so you will 100% get more for your money doing motorway runs, comparing to a petrol version.

Plus diesels have a better co2 emisions plus are stronger engines, but what really over kills me is, if the three turbos are blown in anyway, what will be the cost  you will spending lots, lets hope bmw are putting these engines through there paces whilst testing... i know they do, and marks do.


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## Aero (Feb 13, 2007)

andy665 said:


> And it's not coming to the UK





jimmy669966 said:


> It most certainly is!
> 
> We are just getting the rear wheel drive version though, not the 4WD X-Drive version.


http://www.pistonheads.co.uk/news/default.asp?storyId=25083


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## Franzpan (Mar 2, 2009)

Diesels up a hill are fun with all that torque.


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## Gruffs (Dec 10, 2007)

robertdon777 said:


> Big torque figures count for nothing in an out and out race. Then its all about power (hp) and weight along with gearing. Which is why a tractor is very slow.


The real question is;

What makes petrol the de facto performance fuel?

I believe there is more energy in a diesel molecule. You just have to work harder to get at it. What is it about the sound of a petrol engine that is so good? Can you tell me why or do you just know that it is? Why do dragsters run on methanol if petrol is the best?

No diesel isn't going too far, your conceptions just haven't been adjusted yet.


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## silverback (Jun 18, 2008)

The Cueball said:


> obviously that happens in your pug...  :argie::argie::argie:
> 
> I'm talking specifically about the morons that charge up to your rear bumper on the motorway, so you twitch your right foot, and they can't keep up... :lol:
> 
> ...


Oh like a TATA could out run an awesome 5er :lol: (gets in his 5 series an hides) :lol: I had some nana in a corsa come flatout right behind me two weeks ago,couldn't even be arsed so I took my foot off the accelerator an blocked him in. Nob.


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## robertdon777 (Nov 3, 2005)

Gruffs said:


> The real question is;
> 
> What makes petrol the de facto performance fuel?
> 
> ...


I didn't mention petrol?, just said big torque doesn't make a car fast. But come to mention it, yes petrol power, ie. A n/a petrol powered car with razor Sharp throttle response will always feel better to drive than any turbo car beit diesel or petrol.


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## toomanycitroens (Jan 14, 2011)

I bet the Dealers can't wait to get their grubby hands on all the money from the servicing costs on that.
Just buy a petrol for god's sake if you want that sort of power and have that sort of money!
Sorry, bit of a rant. All done now. Back to work...........


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## Gruffs (Dec 10, 2007)

robertdon777 said:


> I didn't mention petrol?, just said big torque doesn't make a car fast. But come to mention it, yes petrol power, ie. A n/a petrol powered car with razor Sharp throttle response will always feel better to drive than any turbo car beit diesel or petrol.


Sorry, for some reason i quoted you and i didn't mean to.

_Feel_ is a subjective word, a sensory perception.

What constitutes _Feel_?

I think the Petrol vs Diesel argument is largely a subjective one. Why does a NA car feel better to drive than a turbo? What about supercharging? The feel should be similar, the power is more linear.

If going fast and point to point pace is what matters, then the BTCC and Le Mans race series would suggest Turbo is "_Better_".

The OP Specifically says;

"If you want a economical car buy a "normal" diesel if you want a powerful car pushing close to 400bhp then surely you're a bit of a "petrol" head and a diesel is the wrong choice."

This question is not about the BMW engine, it's about his perception of what a powerful car should be powered by and his perception of diesel as a performance fuel. Why not have a powerful car that is also economical? Why spend more than you have to? People don't get rich by spending money. Why is diesel not seen as a performance fuel given the success at Le Mans?

These are not questions of the fuel or the aspiration method but of the customer's perceptions and conventions. Both of which need to be challenged.


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## Grizzle (Jul 12, 2006)

44mpg??...christ its only 4 mpg more than me ....and an extra 120bhp lol.


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## Grommit (May 3, 2011)

3 Turbos eh? That is impressive. One of the best engines in the BMW range is the 123d which runs a twin-turbo, which essentially means you get no turbo lag as one turbo kicks in immediately, and then at say 2500 rpm, the other kicks in. Sort of like a supercharger. This engine is used as a starting point in the Alpina D3's but with added bits. I can only imagine what 3 turbos would feel like in a diesel and it would be immense!

http://www.carsuk.net/bmw-m550d-xdrive-confirmed-x5-m50d-x6-m50d-likely/

I think BMW are doing it because they can, its that simple Unless someone can tell me differnetly but the closest competitors namely Audi, and Mercedes dont have a deisel engine that will touch these new engines. Unless we start talking silly money like for the V12 TDI R8, but even then Audi have canned that due to the cost.

I dare say you could get faster and more torque but you would need tuning companies to do their thang and that will cost a pretty penny.

As a production car straight from the factory delivering those figures and If I could afford it (chuckles) Id have one no problem. Its simply exceptional engineering.


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## dann2707 (Mar 25, 2011)

Some people prefer the power delivery of diesel over petrol. Like me! 

In the metro I hated the fact that when you wanted to over take a car you had to drop down 2 gears to be in the powerband. Whereas with diesel if you are cruising you can just put your footdown and the overtaking power is there.


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## The Cueball (Feb 8, 2007)

dann2707 said:


> Some people prefer the power delivery of diesel over petrol. Like me!
> 
> In the metro I hated the fact that when you wanted to over take a car you had to drop down 2 gears to be in the powerband. Whereas with diesel if you are cruising you can just put your footdown and the overtaking power is there.


to be fair, that's nothing to really do with petrol v diesel...

It's just a metro hasn't got any guts...

I have petrol cars and have no need to go down 2 gears to overtake people...

:thumb:


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## Trip tdi (Sep 3, 2008)

dann2707 said:


> Some people prefer the power delivery of diesel over petrol. Like me!
> 
> In the metro I hated the fact that when you wanted to over take a car you had to drop down 2 gears to be in the powerband. Whereas with diesel if you are cruising you can just put your footdown and the overtaking power is there.


Thats very true, diesels have a narrow power band, the torque kicks alot earlier than petrol engines and don't need to down change when over taking, due to the turbo connected to the engine, with out no turbo, no acceleration, it will very flat in power and torque, hardly no acceleration, all of them are direct injection these days, with a turbo, even the small diesel engines such as a 1.3 and 1.4 have turbos in them, small ones, some of them don't pull to bad, pull better than some petrol engine ones i have driven.


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## vroomtshh (Nov 23, 2009)

The Cueball said:


> obviously that happens in your pug...  :argie::argie::argie:
> 
> I'm talking specifically about the morons that charge up to your rear bumper on the motorway, so you twitch your right foot, and they can't keep up... :lol:
> 
> ...


Isn;t an XKR like 500bhp? And your impressed that you left a 5 series diesel for dead?

I drive a 'fast' diesel, and I'd like to see how your XKR compares to that :lol:


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## The Cueball (Feb 8, 2007)

vroomtshh said:


> Isn;t an XKR like 500bhp? And your impressed that you left a 5 series diesel for dead?
> 
> I drive a 'fast' diesel, and I'd like to see how your XKR compares to that :lol:


yeah, but this diesel car had far more torque (according to him and his 'map')... which is what he was going on and on about...

I never said I was impressed about leaving it.. I was asking how, if these new chipped and remaped "oil burners" are producing sooo much torque, why can't they put that onto the road... but I think I have my answer now..

:thumb:


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## dann2707 (Mar 25, 2011)

The Cueball said:


> to be fair, that's nothing to really do with petrol v diesel...
> 
> It's just a metro hasn't got any guts...
> 
> ...


Oi it had 105bhp 

Your point is valid though, all car dependant.


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## vroomtshh (Nov 23, 2009)

The Cueball said:


> yeah, but this diesel car had far more torque (according to him and his 'map')... which is what he was going on and on about...
> 
> I never said I was impressed about leaving it.. I was asking how, if these new chipped and remaped "oil burners" are producing sooo much torque, why can't they put that onto the road... but I think I have my answer now..
> 
> :thumb:


Being an avid diesel driver (and modifier lol) I never understand the general obsession with torque. Power and gearing are whats important. Ok so Power is a byproduct of torque and gearing, but its the power that ultimately matters.

Putting it onto the road is a completely different matter. 
In the wet (if you were an idiot and wanted to) you can spin 1st to 6th. Stramgely enough, I control this quite easily by not driving it like a d1ck :thumb:


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## The Cueball (Feb 8, 2007)

vroomtshh said:


> Being an avid diesel driver (and modifier lol) I never understand the general obsession with torque. Power and gearing are whats important. Ok so Power is a byproduct of torque and gearing, but its the power that ultimately matters.
> 
> Putting it onto the road is a completely different matter.
> In the wet (if you were an idiot and wanted to) you can spin 1st to 6th. Stramgely enough, I control this quite easily by not driving it like a d1ck :thumb:


Nor do I... as I thought I had said, it was someone else going on and on about it... not me... 

Glad to hear you can drive in the wet... cudos to you! :driver:

:thumb:


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## NornIron (May 12, 2007)

TheGav said:


> TORQUE...
> 
> Imagine


Dual Mass Flywheel

Imagine... the bills :doublesho


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## uruk hai (Apr 5, 2009)

NornIron said:


> Dual Mass Flywheel
> 
> Imagine... the bills :doublesho


That is one of things that occured to me but surely they would almost all be auto's ?

The V12 diesel that Audi put in the Q7 apparantly develops 1000 N/M of torque :doublesho


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## robertdon777 (Nov 3, 2005)

The biggest thing in Engine's at the moment is BMW doing Turbo Petrol 4 pots. A massive change in their engine policies.

Diesel's are great, 335's 330d's etc. but still not as good as their petrol counterparts (talking un modified) 335i, 330i etc. - other than fuel consumption. Not as fast in the same car, Noise isn't as good, throttle response isn't as good - But most people only care about fuel consumption!

I do think my next motor will have a 330d badge on the back though!, but still tempted by the 330i e90 or 130i. My last 3 cars were supposed to be diesel but I couldn't do it, I'm addicted to Revs!


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## robertdon777 (Nov 3, 2005)

NickP said:


> 291bhp + 694nm + 46mpg =
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You must be driving like a Granny!.

The last time I had a go in a 330d my average was 31mpg (same route, same speed in the Octavia VRS was 26mpg)


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## Franzpan (Mar 2, 2009)

dann2707 said:


> Some people prefer the power delivery of diesel over petrol. Like me!
> 
> In the metro I hated the fact that when you wanted to over take a car you had to drop down 2 gears to be in the powerband. Whereas with diesel if you are cruising you can just put your footdown and the overtaking power is there.


Thats exactly what I like about my car. Overtaking is easy, at cruising speed your never far out of the powerband.


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## Trip tdi (Sep 3, 2008)

NornIron said:


> Dual Mass Flywheel
> 
> Imagine... the bills :doublesho


Dual mass flywheel with the turbos going, bills :doublesho


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