# Are we too expensive...



## HeavenlyDetail (Sep 22, 2006)

A guy has been pming me on facebook regarding detailing products etc and i like to be helpful to a degree and he has said hes struggling as its taking him upto 4 days to complete a car.
Ive just given him some discount codes to order some half decent products like scholl etc and this has just popped up on his facebook page..
Im scared to think people will jump at this , hes a nice guy and i wouldnt knock him for what hes doing but man thats a ridiculous price.


Book your car in for a detail in the near future and get 10% knocked off!!

Maintenence Detail - £22 NORMALLY £25
Enhancement Detail - £36 NORMALLY £40
Correction Detail - £63 NORMALLY £70

TODAY ONLY!


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## Beau Technique (Jun 21, 2010)

Been talking about this quite a bit of late. More and more keep setting up and charging pitence for the job. Its ever increasingly making a mockery of the trade. Im all for folk genuinely going out there and making a go of it. Working hard and not having everything land on there plate so to speak but costing is becoming a major questionable debate imo.


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## Rgk Detailing (Dec 6, 2006)

That is crazy!!

There is a guy local to me in Port Glasgow charging similar prices, correction detail from £55, maintenance from £35 etc! he has a full time job apparently so just does this in his spare time, he quotes 7 - 15 hours for a correction with a glaze being applied as one of the steps (no prizes for guessing why a glaze is required!!) 

I have lost a few jobs to him already, but how can anyone detailing full time compete with those prices!


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## Spoony (May 28, 2007)

Marc, your not too expensive - he's too cheap.

You want a job doing properly first time you HAVE to pay the premium. A cheap job is generally that... a cheap job. People see detailing as an easy win in terms of money but I'll bet there's many barely making minimum wage out of it at that.

These guys see it as a hobby that pays still, not a career and certainly not a business. Remember this is your livlihood, this is your future... you charge what your skillset is worth and you make the money that keeps you comfortable and reflects the job which you do.

I can correct a car but I certainly wouldn't ever take it up as an earning hobby, I just don't have that in me!


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## Beau Technique (Jun 21, 2010)

I will add that I spoke to a friend that past my details on to a chap with a rapide. He mentioned to my friend that he was contemplating getting his car paint corrected and that someone in my area had quoted him £100. Think you will find a few in the trade that are charging an average of £150 for a days work at present so again, 'tis those that are causing a potential rod for the detailing industries back.


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## JMorty (Apr 25, 2011)

As per Spoony's, this is just way too cheep! It's quite frustrating seeing this and what I seem to see more of now...people wanting all this work for nothing. It's a shame really, as you say it's diluting the trade really...


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## Offyourmarks (Jan 4, 2006)

Unfortunately guys this will not go away.

Detailing 'back in the day' was a new concept that car enthusiasts lapped up. Those 50:50 shots drew gasps of admiration and astonishment. The thought that somebody could spend longer than a couple of hours washing a car was beyond the understanding of most. 

Detailing quickly became a hot topic and many wanted to have their car detailed. At the time the demand really outstripped the number of detailers offering the services they craved. Now every forum has a detailing/car care section that is either sponsored or has a resident expert dishing out advice , etc. Pro's and part timers clashing and scrapping for work , etc.

With the popularity of DW, the numerous DIY guides and readily available polishers like the G220 and online product suppliers, many potential customers are doing it themselves — therefore a drop in demand.

Then there are the customers who have had their car done and maybe thought, wow that was expensive and I really don't have the time to care for the car to keep it swirl free. They don't have it done again — therefore a drop in demand.

Next are the people who just cannot afford it in this current economic climate and have other priorities, these contribute to a further fall in demand.

At the same time that all this is happening there is a growing supply of people that do it at the weekend, arranged via a few forum pm's for a few quid in the hand. There are also many that think there is an endless supply of customers willing to pay top dollar and therefore set up as detailing experts specialising in paint correction etc, find that work is not a readily available as they once thought and decide to try and undercut the next guy.

It's a term in economics called 'cash on the table' and it predicts this turn of events. Only one person benefits here and that is the customer — they have a greater choice and less to pay.

Personally speaking, new enquiries are less than what they once were in 07 but returning customers and 'regulars' are always increasing. I would hate to be just setting up at this moment in time. My cost base is small as all expenditure is mainly consumables so the business is viable, many just setting up have debt and need to reduce it, hence them panicking and slashing prices to gain business. One thing I learned right at the beginning of OYM in '07 was its easier to discount on a price to gain business but its very difficult to ask regulars for more money.

These chancers will always be here and they will come and go being replaced by the next new start up. I do think that the market will create a survival of the fittest element, but overall our prices will be driven down over the coming years.


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## Mirror Finish Details (Aug 21, 2008)

^^^^^^^ Well worded post.

It will never go away as said, I know of two who have set up near my manor in Cheshire and are offering services from £120. One guy offers a "Correction in one day from £135.00" he is cleaver though, he only offers to rid swirls not deeper scratches; fair enough at least he being honest. I lost a job to him the other week and contacted the customer pretending I did not know I had lost the job and he said the job was done and he is very happy.

The real deal is diversity. I am slowly moving away from just detailing as I have started doing small smart repairs, leather repairs and will be offering PDR repairs later this year. The actual revenue per job is smaller but 2-3 jobs a day brings it back up. Plus I like doing different things.

Like all I have to put bread on the table and moving away from just buffing and letting them fight it out is now benefiting my business. I will happily bow out of detailing/buffing and concentrate on smart repairs, tinting, PDR and alloy repairs within the next year hopefully.


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## Mirror Finish Details (Aug 21, 2008)

Pt 2...

I also think detailing can be it's worst enemy. Some posts of 4 hours to clean a car and 4 hours to clay it, in reality how long does it take. I do a lot of ex lease 3 year old cars and just tell the customer to drive it thru the car wash, it has spent 3 years in a car wash and one more wont hurt it, when I put it into financial terms of half a day of me cleaning it the £5 car wash makes sence. I can then do the correction in 2 days rather than 3 saving him some cash. This then makes me not too much more expensive then the cheaper competition. Also Mike Phillips in his detailing book uses washing up liquid and a brush to clean a car for it's first correction, gets me thinking if it is swirled up why bother with the 2 bucket method; that is for later once corrected.

I do play the game and if you think of the guys doing £150 a day if they do 5 days a week for say 48 weeks a year they can be earning £36k a year, which is £12k more then the average salary in the UK.

So perhaps we are our own enemies trying for £200-£300 a day or more. The competition is offering realistic prices that people can afford.

The other thing is insurance, what if you clip a corner and strip the paint off, I can repair it for £60 and you would never know. I pay a fair chunk for insurance just to be pucker and always give a receipt so I am above board. But think about it, they can trade uninsured; all they need legally is PLI and if they clip a corner of a wing then I can repair it for £60. Why do they need full worked on insurance with a £400 excess. I can repair that clip in the wing in 30 minutes, do 6 a day and I can look at £360 a day.

I have a body man who is ex Merc who can respray a full bonnet and match the orange peel to the rest of the car for £350.00. Go figure.

I follow loads of forums and the posts of "£700 to correct my car at least Dick Turpin wore a mask" are growing and this is where the market will go much like in the US. A few real high Pro's then most buffing work at a few hundred Dollars.


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## Reflectology (Jul 29, 2009)

I was speaking to Scott yesterday and A N Other about a few that are charging for A. Beer Money or B. Just for the heck of it to spite others....and believe me I was surprised at some of the levels that were being mentioned for a meagre £250....

The other detailer I spoke of who'm i wont mention said to me he booked a BMW 6 series in yesterday on the strength that his client was unhappy at the attitude, ethics and actual job satisfaction that had been offered by a supporter in here....the chaps words were "All he was bothered about was my money....booking me in and having me on my way....didnt even try to get to know what I wanted out of the work and the work he had in was?????" I wont repeat it.....

its becoming all too common but if you start dropping your prices people who know of you may think there is some a miss and may go elsewhere....stick with what you charge and if they like it they will pay...if they dont they wont....its their choice but dont change just because others cant get work without dropping prices....


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## Ti22 (Mar 24, 2009)

There will always be the percentage that want to feed off the lower end of the market. Detailing is expanding and so that percentage is growing, but so are the number of people at the top end, where a set of rear tyres on the car is £800+.. £300 a day for detailing to these people is nothing...


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## Miglior (Feb 12, 2006)

Mirror Finish Details said:


> Pt 2...
> 
> I also think detailing can be it's worst enemy. Some posts of 4 hours to clean a car and 4 hours to clay it, in reality how long does it take. I do a lot of ex lease 3 year old cars and just tell the customer to drive it thru the car wash, it has spent 3 years in a car wash and one more wont hurt it, when I put it into financial terms of half a day of me cleaning it the £5 car wash makes sence. I can then do the correction in 2 days rather than 3 saving him some cash.


Seriously?! Really?! the mind boggles! haha!!


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## CleanDetail (Mar 7, 2009)

Agree with a number of posts on here. Stick to what you charge. There is always someone happy to undercut you. My believe in detailing, is all about the end product, getting there using the best techniques and products and cutting no corners. As a business its about money, but for me its about the end product and money is a side effect of been good at what i do.

Obviously as a business its about money and profit, but the first instance you pretray this across to the customer it’s no longer detailing (in my opinion, & hopefully that makes sense).
As also mentioned, the cliental we deal with don’t mind spending a few hundred when they are paying £100 ph for dealers to work on their cars, £800+ for tyres etc.


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## Beau Technique (Jun 21, 2010)

As already said. The strong will out live the weak. Many a have a go hero have tried and failed once finding how hard the job is through coming across new issues and being ill prepared or even working in extremely cold temperatures etc. I think Steve has a point on the business level as you can definitely make serious money on teh cheaper level of services be it hand car washes or main dealerships etc. Constant volume work will always ensure a reasonable salary. The cheaper services have always been there and as already mentioned again, forums and teh odd weekend specialist floods the market with folks wishing for a service provider to offer x, y and z for £100 <. If im honest, its the world wide web, forums etc that are aiding in it being simplistic for the market to be liquidated.

Chin, up. Socks up. Crack on and let the quality of service you provide along with word of mouth of those said services sing out:thumb:


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## Ronnie (Nov 15, 2006)

put simply its horses for courses. you can buy a KA for £150 and an Enzo for a £1,000,000 they do both exactly the same thing if you take them for being cars. but they have their respective customer base same with detailing there is a place for the £50 detail so let them get on with it.


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## Reflectology (Jul 29, 2009)

I dont think its the £50 detail thats diluting the market TBH....i think its just the way the weekend warriors seem to be more challenging....yeah folks will see the £50 as a far more cost effective service than one of say a £450 detail but its the old adage of weekend warriors that will begin to raise a brow or 2....although I do realise the old WW status may have dwindled into oblivion but the affects that this has had is phenomenal....there are guys out there that have to earn a crust....put food on the table and have bills and maybe unit overheads for those that have them but the beer money detailers dont really give a shizzle about anyone elses lively hood....they have a 9-5 to pay the living costs....

it could cause major issues and rifts between not only us in here but wives partners etc as bills need to be paid....

To me its the leech that sucks the blood....the sleeper cell that waits to pounce before breaking down the defences and eventually the full time detailer that allows themselves to be affected by this see themselves having to compete with a disease....


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## Ronnie (Nov 15, 2006)

Know what u mean Russ. I feel that detailing will have its day in the limelight then the next big thing will come along and whe weekend boys will slowly die out. There is a local guy here every time u see his FB there is an Aston or Ferrari him and his mate are mobile and do a full correction at your house for £100 even for these guys it can last long. Its just a matter of lasting longer than them


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## Kelly @ KDS (Aug 4, 2008)

I get around 5000 emails per year now , and only 5% end up "real" customers the rest are time wasters. 

I get a lot more of public popping in without booking asking about our prices , while showing them the KDS price menu they look around and start asking what we use and how , we even have many really trying to pull the wool over our eyes be pretending to be a customer wanting to book in , and then near writing the booking in the diary they start the what compound and pad are you going to us etc . 

I got a few weeks ago on a monday under massive pressure to compete a car , 15 phone calls and walkins all asking for advice and help , many weekends are the same . 

I just dont walk out side anymore to view a car , i dont often answer the phone anymore (leave it to staff) and choose the emails i reply to . 
I found that when public talk to the staff they dont ask as much and if they do the reply is make a booking for your car or book in for training, if i answer and dont give the advice they want they end up not happy , had 2 that publicly posted never to go to KDS just because they did not get free help, both threads got locked in the end one on here and one on PH 

Get many a email reminding me of the last email to which i dont answer that one either 

The amount of emails i get of customers moaning about other detailers work , to which 2 today about 2 detailers on here that they expected more from their work , again i dont even reply with any sort of answer , these guys in question , have emailed saying they want me to do the car again as they want it perfect and want to pay £300 to do so as this is what i paid the last detailer to detail my car for 2 days . 

Not found a single REAL problem from proper detail thats been charged at proper price , its the guys that pay for 1 day detail and expect it to be the best detail of the year , then complain on every forum possible . 

I am soon on my new website plain for everyone to see and view stating that we "will not help you for free will not give free advice" and a charge for booking one of the KDS staffs time thats refunded iF you book in and use KDS. 

And bloody facebook , lost count of the amount of times i get a friend request , i push except and then in comes the PM's of how to detail . 

so i will be putting same notice on FB no free advice , either look on DW book in for training or practice . 

Lastly i think KDS has got through the last few years and growing even better by offering much more (but to the same level as our details) then just detailing , it seems to attract genuine customers that want to whole car sorted properly and dont mind paying. 

we are not cheap , we are not available to your work place or door step , we only work on your car over a week period regardless of job booked in, never do a one day detail , we dont drop you off or pick you up , we dont give discounts .

But we are still very busy and booked , and a really dont care about what others are charging , all i care about is my standard of work the rest will sort its self out on its own. 

just some of my ramblings 

kelly


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## Reflectology (Jul 29, 2009)

^^^^spot on mate^^^^


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## Ronnie (Nov 15, 2006)

_*Lastly i think KDS has got through the last few years and growing even better by offering much more (but to the same level as our details) then just detailing , it seems to attract genuine customers that want to whole car sorted properly and dont mind paying.

we are not cheap , we are not available to your work place or door step , we only work on your car over a week period regardless of job booked in, never do a one day detail , we dont drop you off or pick you up , we dont give discounts .

But we are still very busy and booked , and a really dont care about what others are charging , all i care about is my standard of work the rest will sort its self out on its own.

just some of my ramblings *_

pretty much sums it up to be honest.


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## CleanDetail (Mar 7, 2009)

Dont think i could have said that better my self kelly.


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## Kelly @ KDS (Aug 4, 2008)

hers a thing 

lepsons have been putting up their prices every few years , 

this year they had the biggest increase to date , and now charge for all parts of their trade , IE charge for tyre disposal , charge for puncture , charge for center caps to be repainted , charge for special colours , charge for hire car per day , charge for car storage , charge to have the wheels waxed , charge for tyres to be dressed . 

Most of the above used to be included in the old cheaper prices. 

so now they have a higher base price with many "add ons" , what has this done to their turnover?

They have seen a slight drop in demand with some "toxic" customers deciding to go to other wheel refurb company's that dont mind listening and dealing with "toxic" customers moaning . 

BUT they profit turnover is up massively for doing slightly less work or work that used to be FOC. 

When i release the new KDS website my prices are going up and we will be removing some processes to our detailing packages and making them an add on . 

Anyone thats dropping their prices or sending out special offer discounts for their services is on a slippery slop to being a "busy fool" . 

The guys that are starting out or young companys are going to to offer insane cheap prices , this will only lead to other people and potential customers that "same special treatment" of loads of work for very cheap price . 
There is only so long that can carry on for before something major has to change to stay in business or lead to ill health running your butt off . 

In the end the higher your charge does not mean less work it means the customers that book and use you "respect" how hard and skilled your work is and understand quality . 

But this takes years to build too not weeks and months. 





Kelly


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## DetailMyCar (Apr 19, 2010)

Reflectology said:


> I dont think its the £50 detail thats diluting the market TBH....i think its just the way the weekend warriors seem to be more challenging....yeah folks will see the £50 as a far more cost effective service than one of say a £450 detail but its the old adage of weekend warriors that will begin to raise a brow or 2....although I do realise the old WW status may have dwindled into oblivion but the affects that this has had is phenomenal....there are guys out there that have to earn a crust....put food on the table and have bills and maybe unit overheads for those that have them but the beer money detailers dont really give a shizzle about anyone elses lively hood....they have a 9-5 to pay the living costs....
> 
> it could cause major issues and rifts between not only us in here but wives partners etc as bills need to be paid....
> 
> To me its the leech that sucks the blood....the sleeper cell that waits to pounce before breaking down the defences and eventually the full time detailer that allows themselves to be affected by this see themselves having to compete with a disease....


Surely it's actually the same with any trade, there are people that will come and paint your house, mow your lawn, friends that can service your car, kids that will wash neighbours cars or even friends that fancy themselves as IT experts building PC's and fixing problems for people for next to no money / profit. That doesn't mean all the local gardeners, decorators, valeters, car mechanics or IT companies are all going to go out of business or not be able to put food on the table.

If they're good at what they do and charging an honest amount (as in value for money and not just ripping people off) they will survive because people will always be happy if they know a job has been done well and feel it's worth the money. That's why there are still people wanting to have their car properly polished by Detailers rather then just a hand polish at the local car wash - If they know the difference between those, they'll know the difference between a £50 "WW" and a professional experienced detailer :thumb:


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## Kelly @ KDS (Aug 4, 2008)

Reflectology said:


> I dont think its the £50 detail thats diluting the market TBH....i think its just the way the weekend warriors seem to be more challenging....yeah folks will see the £50 as a far more cost effective service than one of say a £450 detail but its the old adage of weekend warriors that will begin to raise a brow or 2....although I do realise the old WW status may have dwindled into oblivion but the affects that this has had is phenomenal....there are guys out there that have to earn a crust....put food on the table and have bills and maybe unit overheads for those that have them but the beer money detailers dont really give a shizzle about anyone elses lively hood....they have a 9-5 to pay the living costs....
> 
> it could cause major issues and rifts between not only us in here but wives partners etc as bills need to be paid....
> 
> To me its the leech that sucks the blood....the sleeper cell that waits to pounce before breaking down the defences and eventually the full time detailer that allows themselves to be affected by this see themselves having to compete with a disease....


Russ ,

as said every trade has this problem and it will never go away.

So you say about making a living , i will stick my neck out and say i bet i have the largest overheads of any "detailing" company in the UK .

39k -40k for building and the standard bills .

then add products and the staffs wages in near 100k per year and before i pay VAT etc .

so my turnover HAS to be constant and massive , i would say i am under more pressure than most to pay bills and put food on the table.

My good months one being just gone i turned over 25k on invoices (if you get what i mean) now thats a lot of cars through the door , which comes with its own pressures and logistic nightmare.

Do you see me worrying about other weekend hobby guys , lets face i was 15 years ago and look where i am now .

My business chews up 8k per month in overheads when we have no work , so i only need 3 months (winter) with no work and thats the same amount to what a lot of starting out guys would wish to do in year .

Marc has spoken to me many times about my business on many subjects.

The facts are that if i was to shut up shop , fill the van up with equipment , start to drive to people homes and work places and detail / smart repair their cars i would earn for myself 4-5 times the amount that i currently do, but turnover half the total amount.

IS this a forward step or backwards step with regards to business.

for me a backwards step , it puts me in line and comparable with weekend guys ( and guys like Russ MCC , this is not aimed in a bad way) and 90% of all other detailers , so your are competing in a flooded market and would find it harder to stand out from the rest, then comes the special sring / winter deals and a slow spiral of being a one day detailer thats cheap.

To succeed in business you have to be above the rest (in our trade which is visual so customer can see the level achieved) , or put your self with in your trade at a different level by being able to offer much more than the other 90% , then you are competing with only 10% of the ohters in your trade.

YOU make your business what it is by putting in blood sweet and tears , i have been there and done it , spent well over 100k of my own money (from a house sale) gave up a long term relationship 18 years , lost all my personal belongings (apart from my cars) , and all went into my business.

before i done this i was working short hours full time and a evening and weekend hobby guy earning from detailing. 
In fact earning more then , than now .

But i am much happier not having the 500k detached high walled and gated house that i owned which had a gym room , swimming pool , hot tub , snooker room, 3 car garage , drive for 8 cars , because i have a business that i am proud of that i built from nothing , and its mine.

IF you want something in life you have to get of your backside and take risks that most would not dream to dare do, if you dont want to then dont moan about it as you only have yourself to blame for it , i think some dont know what having it tough really is and give up too easily.

you get out of life what you put in , so how hard and how much are you going to put in to be "different from the others"?

I have never worried about other detailers and what they are charging , if i had any spare time to do so then i would use it to come up with ideas for my own business.

My father had a great business for many years then started to use his time up watching other garages and repairs shops and matching them for prices and deals , then the slippery slope started to the stage he is very close to shutting with no money or business to sell after 40 years in business which was turning over one miilion plus 20 years ago , he focused his time and effort on the wrong things.

kelly


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## Reflectology (Jul 29, 2009)

Know exactly what you mean Kelly....you have to get off your ar5e and do something about it....which is why I am working towards my own premises with all aspects of repair work to be undertaken with booth etc....but as you say its a lot of set up costs and due to having one business that was forced to close a few years ago I am still paying those monthly outgoings for the next 6 yrs....nothing to do with this trade though....but I dont really worry about who charges what and where they are I concentrate on my business....theres a guy opened a detail unit in sheffield that has money to burn and prior to opening spent only a couple of days training...had no experience with a rotary and stumps money up for a 2000sq ft unit....am i worried because he has a unit...no....

The point i was trying to make is that smaller businesses that had an established set up seem to be losing out more to the WW....

I do understand where you are coming from with overheads though mate through the previous business I am still paying for....

That was a kids play area in a 5000 sq ft unit where we had rent of 35k plus gas, leccy, staff and the rest to pay as well as equipment etc....that set me back 60k of my own money only for the landlord to do us over....but thats a long story and one that could have seen me in prison had I not shut the place down....

this is the reason I am mobile but fully conversant as you are with paint and body....I just have to find a suitable unit for the right price where the landlord will accept motor trade....which is a nightmare as i have seen unit after unit but none will allow this trade....and the ones that do are far too expensive....

but again as long as i do not worry about anyone else in the immediate or surrounding areas then I am doing ok...its when i do worry that I will start to rethink my position....but I cant see me doing that for some reason....

anyway mate i am glad someone from the same or similar background to me has gone b4lls out and made it happen...


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## Ronnie (Nov 15, 2006)

Coming from a property development business I would agree with Kelly we saw a massive saturation in the industry. and look where it happened. Wages were mental I was earning more in a day than I would have in a year at one point. ITs costing the business properly its being able to react to change quickly and easily adding strings to the bow and cutting them off when you need to. Also hard work and morals are 2 very important things people forget you can work every hour possible but if ur have the moral fibre of a jellyfish or are an obnoxious prat then its all for waste equally if you are a saint but don't work it will come to nothing. business is hard but it must remain profitable have no friends or mates rates charge for everything if you give a freebie factor it in elsewhere and so on. 

Loved the read Kelly that's dedication for sure. BUT a word of warning and I am being totally honest there is a line when commitment regardless and dedication can be too much I hit that point with the property I was in the middle of a massive deal to sell the company in a crumbling market I had noticed it in 2006 and the deal took a year to finalise. It left me with depression. It left me I needed 3 years out to get over it. Business now is more fun for me still stressful but more clearly defined and focused. We have a clear mission statement and ethos we are using the best of materials constantly checking and analysing the competition monitoring their alterations (you can tell a lot about a company about how their formulas and dilution rates change). Be aware of whats going on who to keep an eye out on everyone local dint knee jerk react to other offers and you should be fine.


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## Auto Finesse (Jan 10, 2007)

Mirror Finish Details said:


> Pt 2...
> 
> I also think detailing can be it's worst enemy. Some posts of 4 hours to clean a car and 4 hours to clay it, in reality how long does it take. I do a lot of ex lease 3 year old cars and just tell the customer to drive it thru the car wash, it has spent 3 years in a car wash and one more wont hurt it, when I put it into financial terms of half a day of me cleaning it the £5 car wash makes sence. I can then do the correction in 2 days rather than 3 saving him some cash. This then makes me not too much more expensive then the cheaper competition. Also Mike Phillips in his detailing book uses washing up liquid and a brush to clean a car for it's first correction, gets me thinking if it is swirled up why bother with the 2 bucket method; that is for later once corrected.
> 
> ...


WTF, are you serious  i try not to get in to these kinds of debates to much these days but here goes anyway

So your telling me a hand car wash cleans a car to where you are happy to clay or machine polish? any of us here could do (with an extra set of hands) what they do in 10-20 mins tops, a quick wash aint what takes the time, a detailed wash is, door shuts, bay, grills gaps & badges, arches, doing wheels properly, thats what takes the time, not a quick body wash, im actually stunned 

Secondly:



> £150 a day if they do 5 days a week for say 48 weeks a year they can be earning £36k a year, which is £12k more then the average salary in the UK


Turn over and profit (earnings) are very different, if all your business can turn over is 36K in a year at max capacity (as that's what your sums are based on) il stick my neck out here and say it aint a viable long term business.

A decent, properly run, professional one man set up would burn at least 2K a month if it was progressing and busy.

You have not factored in running costs, bills, consumables or even taxes LOL.

Take away what would or should come out of that and you would probably be better off working for Ronald Mc Donald

Sorry to sound like a ct but it has to be said.


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## Detail My Ride (Apr 19, 2006)

Mirror Finish Details said:


> Pt 2...
> 
> I also think detailing can be it's worst enemy. Some posts of 4 hours to clean a car and 4 hours to clay it, in reality how long does it take. I do a lot of ex lease 3 year old cars and just tell the customer to drive it thru the car wash, it has spent 3 years in a car wash and one more wont hurt it, when I put it into financial terms of half a day of me cleaning it the £5 car wash makes sence. I can then do the correction in 2 days rather than 3 saving him some cash. This then makes me not too much more expensive then the cheaper competition. Also Mike Phillips in his detailing book uses washing up liquid and a brush to clean a car for it's first correction, gets me thinking if it is swirled up why bother with the 2 bucket method; that is for later once corrected.
> 
> ...


I don't really post in here much, simply because of the amount of rubbish I read and i'd be on here forever writing unnecessarily long posts and I simply don't have the time!

But surely, if a professional detailing company is actually recommending customers to take their car through a car wash to save money on a correction detail, that has got to be one of the most degrading things to the industry I have ever heard?

And based on those figures you've come up with for what you'll earn based on £150 a day, I hope you have a really good accountant! If so, send me his details. I'd love to earn £36k a year with 6 weeks holiday and own a business which has £0 overheads/tax/costs!


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## Miglior (Feb 12, 2006)

Gaz W said:


> I don't really post in here much, simply because of the amount of rubbish I read and i'd be on here forever writing unnecessarily long posts and I simply don't have the time!
> 
> But surely, if a professional detailing company is actually recommending customers to take their car through a car wash to save money on a correction detail, that has got to be one of the most degrading things to the industry I have ever heard?
> 
> And based on those figures you've come up with for what you'll earn based on £150 a day, I hope you have a really good accountant! If so, send me his details. I'd love to earn £36k a year with 6 weeks holiday and own a business which has £0 overheads/tax/costs!


Exactly!


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## Auto Finesse (Jan 10, 2007)

Gaz W said:


> I don't really post in here much, simply because of the amount of rubbish I read and i'd be on here forever writing unnecessarily long posts and I simply don't have the time!
> 
> But surely, if a professional detailing company is actually recommending customers to take their car through a car wash to save money on a correction detail, that has got to be one of the most degrading things to the industry I have ever heard?
> 
> And based on those figures you've come up with for what you'll earn based on £150 a day, I hope you have a really good accountant! If so, send me his details. I'd love to earn £36k a year with 6 weeks holiday and own a business which has £0 overheads/tax/costs!


Said that better than me mate :thumb:


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## Kelly @ KDS (Aug 4, 2008)

Ronnie said:


> Coming from a property development business I would agree with Kelly we saw a massive saturation in the industry. and look where it happened. Wages were mental I was earning more in a day than I would have in a year at one point. ITs costing the business properly its being able to react to change quickly and easily adding strings to the bow and cutting them off when you need to. Also hard work and morals are 2 very important things people forget you can work every hour possible but if ur have the moral fibre of a jellyfish or are an obnoxious prat then its all for waste equally if you are a saint but don't work it will come to nothing. business is hard but it must remain profitable have no friends or mates rates charge for everything if you give a freebie factor it in elsewhere and so on.
> 
> Loved the read Kelly that's dedication for sure. BUT a word of warning and I am being totally honest there is a line when commitment regardless and dedication can be too much I hit that point with the property I was in the middle of a massive deal to sell the company in a crumbling market I had noticed it in 2006 and the deal took a year to finalise. It left me with depression suicidal ( it is scary how clear and logical things are at that stage I even had my place to do it picked out) It left me I needed 3 years out to get over it. Business now is more fun for me still stressful but more clearly defined and focused. We have a clear mission statement and ethos we are using the best of materials constantly checking and analysing the competition monitoring their alterations (you can tell a lot about a company about how their formulas and dilution rates change). Be aware of whats going on who to keep an eye out on everyone local dint knee jerk react to other offers and you should be fine.


gone waaaaaay past the depression part mate :thumb: , indeed there was a period when one christmas holiday when i wanted to be left completely on my own and locked myself in my own home locked the front gate so no one could walk onto my land , and turned off the phones .

This was when i tried to do ALL the work on my own and not trust staff.

different story now learnt your not the business your staff are the business , slowly the more i let go and let the staff learn and deal with day to day runnings the easier it getting and progression is speeding up very quickly .

If you really are an OCD type of person in this trade then its one of the hardest things to do "let others deal with the work and quality" and let go.

@ marc why do you think i never give you a price for paintwork when i get random texts or emails asking for prices and quotes for paintwork , when i have never seen the car or met the customer to established the level they are after and actually why the quote for re-paint in the first place .

Are you not like a lot of time wasters just fishing for prices , surely if the customer wants his car done correctly he will come directly and let the company do a proper inspection and quote.

totally under stand you are trying to help out a mate , but if they are serious enough they will travel and do thing properly , if they want a quote 3rd hand through a text message there are plenty of companys that will do that and take a gamble .

OR are you texting many to see who comes up with best price , i really hope this is not true as then who is driving down the prices for paintwork and detailing ?????

Kelly


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## Offyourmarks (Jan 4, 2006)

Picking up on Kelly's post.

I could never build my business to that level largely due to the worries of meeting monthly fixed costs. You grow a big monster and you gotta keep it fed. That's not a swipe by the way Kelly, it's just how I run my business. I really admire the level you have attained.

When I set up OYM I left a position as a Regional manager for a large multi national — had the car, salary, responsibility and the kudos. I hated it! I never switched off, I was taking calls on a Sunday afternoon whilst at the park with my family and not sleeping at night. I spent Saturday worrying about what had happened on Friday and Sunday worrying about what was coming up on Monday. It was the driving force to set up and do something I love. 

If I got myself into a position where my own business carried a large responsibility I'd probably crack up. You obviously put in the hours and your rep is impeccable in the trade, but you have (in your words) lost out on the things that I personally value above anything else — personal life, Family, wife/partner etc and my children.

This here guys is a piece of advice that comes straight from the heart and I urge you to take it on board.

Although being the best in the game may be great, and being busy is great, earning good money is great, and being proud of what you have done is great (especially companies like PB KDS and DDJ who have achieved so much) always remember that family and life itself is a gift that must be cherished.

3 years ago our son was born and without going into it all it was a life changing experience. For 12 months he was in and out Alder Hey. We really didn't know if he would make it through. BUT what I have realised is that money and kudos means absolutely nothing in life. If you want to put time and effort into work then go for it — it's what I do too, but make sure a balance is achieved and make sure your Wife, Children and Family always come first. Worry not about what others charge — set out your stall and use your business and its associated perks to supplement your Private life — not the other way around.

Sorry for going on but I just think it's so important for people to realise that Family is the most important thing you will ever have, and no matter how much you want your business to succeed never forget the most important things in life.

Sorry, I'll wind in my neck now get off to bed. I hope you can see what I'm getting at as its hard to express what you mean in words alone. I'm not having a pop at anyone, just hoping to help some others


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## Mirror Finish Details (Aug 21, 2008)

_I do play the game and if you think of *the guys* doing £150 a day if they do 5 days a week for say 48 weeks a year they can be earning £36k a year, which is £12k more then the average salary in the UK._

You all read that wrong. I was refering to the competition hence *"the guys" *working for £150 a day and the potential they can earn is why a lot are jumping on the band wagon. Jeez I wish I could survive on £36k a year.

I have actually put my prices up this financial year and have had the best quarter I have ever had, plus getting cars in from the south as well. Last two cars done one from Norwich and last weeks car from Milton Keynes. Have a full correction in London next week as well.

About wasing them or not, I don't give a monkeys what you think, to me it makes business sence, 40% of my business is small traders who want the correction with out all the fuss; deliver it clean and I can be machining away by 11am. Just ONR each panel and clay each panel. Address the door shuts etc after the correction while dealing with all the dust etc.

The retail side is enthusuasts who are happy to deliver the car clean to save some money, just clay it and start machining. The ones who are happy to pay for the full 3 days then it is the full wheel off wash 2bm etc.

I run my business my way and make a good living, I am slowly moving away from detailing and moving to just the paint corrections and smart repairs.


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## Defined Reflections (Jun 4, 2009)

I couldn't agree more with offyourmarks,what you wrote is exactly what i think.


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## Leemack (Mar 6, 2009)

I've quoted for 4 or 5 cars over the weekend. 

One of them wanted me to do his Aston at his house but when I asked him to come to the unit due to the weather and working condtions he agreed. Came to price.

He wanted full correction with some sanding etc. I quoted him to be replied to after 12 emails and 2 hours or so

"I can get this all done for £200"

The others all said they could get their cars done for under £200 bla bla bla. I quoted £300 for an enhancement detail which i think is about right for the work i put in and I lost all of them to someone local (Although one of them did say he had a £90 budget :wall: )

If I quote its because I want that figure. Screw price matching - If i get it great, if i don't never mind.


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## Ronnie (Nov 15, 2006)

feck it I say hire a few latvians in and do a £3 car wash with a big sign or for £6 use the 2 bucket method and wash mitts just like the detailers!! That is what teh sign said lol!!!

So I had a wee look around and yes its a manky old mitt and 2 buckets but its the same wash but boy they are coining it in lol!!


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## Leemack (Mar 6, 2009)

:lol: Rollo

You say that.

Bloke comes in yesterday from 2 units down. (On a sunday at 3pm btw)

Asked me if I could do his car like i did the Range Rover next door last week. Then he hits me with it. The koso's do mine for £3. If you can match that ill come here every week :wall:

I told him i charged £900 for the Range Rover and he actually took offence and chuntered off saying ill take my business elsewhere. :lol:

One that got away is that one


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## Mirror Finish Details (Aug 21, 2008)

Gaz W said:


> I don't really post in here much, simply because of the amount of rubbish I read and i'd be on here forever writing unnecessarily long posts and I simply don't have the time!
> 
> But surely, if a professional detailing company is actually recommending customers to take their car through a car wash to save money on a correction detail, that has got to be one of the most degrading things to the industry I have ever heard?
> 
> And based on those figures you've come up with for what you'll earn based on £150 a day, I hope you have a really good accountant! If so, send me his details. I'd love to earn £36k a year with 6 weeks holiday and own a business which has £0 overheads/tax/costs!


Obvously you must be not good at reading as I was not quoting my figures, I was quoting a generic ww/part timers rates on a projected sales forcast of what is achievable charging £150 a day with 4 weeks off a year not 6, you need to read before you type. Just highlighting why they are jumping on the bandwagon as they can earn good money. £2-300 a day may be the norm for us but £150 a day from coming form a call centre is a fantastic wage for some.

Why is it degrading to the industry to not wash the car or car wash it?? It depends on the market, I play my market, I don't do interiors or engine bays I have found a profitable niche, even more so doing, smart repairs, alloy repairs, forensic interior work etc... So wind your neck in and read a post (if you can) before replying. To the others with snide remarks wind your necks in as well as I do what I do and do it well. My business, my terms and my way of working.


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## Kelly @ KDS (Aug 4, 2008)

Matt 

Cant argue with what you wrote for most (nearly all) of the public , and makes total sense. 

But for me and my personality and make up , as a kid i never wanted many friends , or to join in with family matters. 

As a Kid i enjoyed repairing , reading , building all sorts of things and this carried on through into my adult life (all locked away in a workshop , shed or garage ) and was done to please me and push my limits and not outsiders attention or admiration , this is what made me decide i need to split and lose a lot of things i had. also that i dont want kids and my partners all have in the past. 

It was not the trade of cars or detailing that caused this it was my personality and what i like doing and want to do with my life and i enjoy it.

you could call me a loner , and have been call encentric , nutter professor and so on , i am not one to want to go out for a beer / meals / cinema / holidays / weddings / birthdays etc , i would rather be left a lone to use my hands and fix things. 

My friends and family have gave up with the invites to such things as they know i will be happy sitting taking something apart instead. 

So monster for most , happy as pig in **** for a few . 

I not hurting anyone or doing anything against the law :thumb:

Its just interesting to see different sides to peoples ideas of working life.

I find doing the normal life type things actually very difficult and dont enjoy them at all. 

anyway dont listen to me , the best advice on hear is from 

"Mirror Alan Sugar Finish" 


And lastly , i have never worried about the money i charge or what each car is earning me as we work on that car , i have always finished a car when i am happy with the outcome NOT how long its taken against what we are charging . 
so as business does not make sense either. 

so are we carryout (KDS) work too cheaply ??? are we too expensive ??? back to Marcs reason for posting . 

I was once the guy that charged £50 - £100 for full detail , it was never for the reason of undercutting any other detailers and companys , its was more that i enjoyed it so much that i would do cars for free (all i needed was to cover materials and fuel) to fuel my hobby and passion. 

So yes these guys may well be killing the trade but these guys MAY not be doing it for free even knowing whats happening to the trade because of it, 

It could be a past time enjoyment and an interest and hobby only , its the guys that are clearly jumping on the detailing band wagon and think its going to be an easy way to make money. 

we all started somewhere , and marc you could not tell me that you did not start the exact same way , its your passion and hobby that lead to a full time job and makes you good at what you do. 
so once you were emailing posting for advice , popping into detailers workplaces making friends to fuel your passion. 
And you know well i am very open to express my feelings and advice 

2 side to a story really 

kelly


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## Reflectology (Jul 29, 2009)

Offyourmarks said:


> Picking up on Kelly's post.
> 
> I could never build my business to that level largely due to the worries of meeting monthly fixed costs. You grow a big monster and you gotta keep it fed. That's not a swipe by the way Kelly, it's just how I run my business. I really admire the level you have attained.
> 
> ...


^^^THIS^^^

I work and I work hard but I only do this for one reason and one reason alone....I have a wife and 2 kids that I love to bits and the only ones that suffer are them if you dont spend quality time with them...work life balance....

When i was working for someone else no matter who or where the underlying factor was that I wasnt well liked...basically because i wasnt a yes man to them....they just didnt realise that I value my family more than a spot of overtime....I didnt need it to survive like the others as I had a system that worked between myself and a mate at one place of work where we were happy with our 1000-1200 a week just for painting a few cars....such was the bonus....and that was in 40hrs....it was appreciated by only one person and that was the man at the top...foreman...supervisor etc wanted to crack the whip and get me in at a weekend as well....started kicking off because I said no..."but the others are coming in" were his words.....thing is the others didnt graft and were screwing the company for 40hrs pay and covering only half of that on their timesheets....we were booking 120hrs most weeks....yep it was that good and that easy but others were lazy and saw O/T as a better option...well feck that I wanted my weekends for me and my family....

I dont do valeting and as Kelly dont do discounts unless the client has more than a couple of cars to do....then its only 10% and I am busy but more and more are asking for paintwork this....wheels that and leather etc....this is why i need to try and push my business forward to what i used to do but i will still have my morals and my wife and 2 kids....


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## Beau Technique (Jun 21, 2010)

Off your marks - So, so true and nice to hear that heart felt reply. Must agree. Im a home man. Ive turned work down towards London areas and way up North as I like being able to go home at night and be round the one's I am comfortable with. Never been one to be out with the lad's, boozing etc. Waste of time and not my bag of fruit. As most will know, my mum is a heavily disabled lady and I would quite literally do anything to ensure she is happy, safe and well. Same goes for my better half. This is a job I enjoy. Gives a food for curiosity every day so can appreciate and understand what off your marks and kds have both said.

Back to jamesb's comment on turn over and profit, yet again I can understand and appreciate. My previous business had 10 staff which were situated between 3 main dealerships. Turn over was more than adequate yet raw profit / wages were 75% less. Difference in that to detailing is far less material involved, only your wages etc ( unless your a multi man outfit with workshop lease etc ) so profit not turn over can be maximised far greater in this trade than conveyor belt valeting as I call it.


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## HeavenlyDetail (Sep 22, 2006)

Kelly @ KDS said:


> gone waaaaaay past the depression part mate :thumb: , indeed there was a period when one christmas holiday when i wanted to be left completely on my own and locked myself in my own home locked the front gate so no one could walk onto my land , and turned off the phones .
> 
> This was when i tried to do ALL the work on my own and not trust staff.
> 
> ...


Roflmao.... That is all.


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## HeavenlyDetail (Sep 22, 2006)

@Matt , i applaud you , youve always been a very genuine guy when weve chatted and your ethics are spot on as is your reputation.


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## Auto Finesse (Jan 10, 2007)

Beau Technique said:


> Back to jamesb's comment on turn over and profit, yet again I can understand and appreciate. My previous business had 10 staff which were situated between 3 main dealerships. Turn over was more than adequate yet raw profit / wages were 75% less. Difference in that to detailing is far less material involved, only your wages etc ( unless your a multi man outfit with workshop lease etc ) so profit not turn over can be maximised far greater in this trade than conveyor belt valeting as I call it.


I agree to a certain degree but its not as black and white as that in my opinion.

Every business will have costs, im pretty sharp on this stuff as i used to monitor it all very tightly, and trust me even if i was doing it on my own out of a van at £150 a day you would not be making enough money.

Having staff and premises should not detract from your profit margins but increase them due to productivity, provided your business is sustainable, more staff means more out put, provided you can get the work in the first place, (this is where a good solid marketing strategy will come in to play) premises for us personally uped our productivity substantially due to being able to work in all weather all year around. and all hours at work where spent detailing rather than down time driving, in 09-10 we had 3 guys out in a van to keep up with demand on the top ups and the down time cost was huge. i was paying them for driving around more than working (London traffic plaid a part)

I think alot of the problems in this industry come down to people thinking cos they can "detail a car" they can start up a detailing company, and whilst they might even be a good detailer they dont have a clue how to run or manage a business.


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## Over The Rainbow (Aug 30, 2011)

Just like to thank all the guys who have taken time to reply to this thread. Im probably one of the youngest on here and by the looks of it have the highest overheads by a large amount. Work life balance means i see those who matter when i can and am back working when everyone is sleeping. I cant help it. Im probably working 2am-9pm most days (probably more if it wasnt the girlfriend slapping sense into me at times!). I enjoy it though. Unlike my other business's its honestly something i want to grow and struggle to spend as much time as i want to . However, I do make more money from the other business. Go figure.

Everyone has a way to make it work. The one universal truth i have found (and noticed in this thread) is not to worry about anyone else and work out your own worth. More cars on the road than we could detail between us and the WW's . Expand your circles. Engage new customers. Most people have to experience bad work to appreciate good work in the motor trade unless they get lucky the first time. Other people just don't have the budget for what they want. Fair enough.

Ive learnt so much and everyday things change and we have to adapt. Ive got someone (professional) changing my whole price structure the coming week. Should be interesting.

Alfie


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## Leemack (Mar 6, 2009)

Although I hated most of my 10 years, sometimes wish i'd have stayed in the old bill. 

Less stressfull and *****y as this industry is and thats saying something.


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## HeavenlyDetail (Sep 22, 2006)

Concours Car Care said:


> Although I hated most of my 10 years, sometimes wish i'd have stayed in the old bill.
> 
> Less stressfull and *****y as this industry is and thats saying something.


Better pension thats for sure :thumb:


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## Leemack (Mar 6, 2009)

Christ, i gave up the old style one mate

As it stood, £110, 000 golden handshake and 15 k per year at 50 years of age :wall:

Mrs is still in it though so just trying to keep her in it so i can win it lol


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## HeavenlyDetail (Sep 22, 2006)

Yep with family at weekend out for a meal and they all in the Met , £140k lump and 22k per year when he retires next year after 30 years i think , he did say. 
BUT lets remember the job they do and what they put in every month  all deserved.


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## Beau Technique (Jun 21, 2010)

James B said:


> I agree to a certain degree but its not as black and white as that in my opinion.
> 
> Every business will have costs, im pretty sharp on this stuff as i used to monitor it all very tightly, and trust me even if i was doing it on my own out of a van at £150 a day you would not be making enough money.
> 
> ...


You certainly cant buy your way to the top contrary to what some seem to think. Strategy is always helpful though I must admit, after working for some pleb. I'd had enough and rather than sit on my 4rse I tackled things head on. Starting out was tough. More so especially selling a high end service to what some class as a glorified car valet. Having my previous business helped me out tremendously to understand where I had slight issues and how to better myself. Persistence is everything. resistance is futile but the main thing is failure is not an option. Be the best at what you do and you will succeed. Even more so if you have failed in the past. Without some form of failure how can you be successful?



Over The Rainbow said:


> Just like to thank all the guys who have taken time to reply to this thread. Im probably one of the youngest on here and by the looks of it have the highest overheads by a large amount. Work life balance means i see those who matter when i can and am back working when everyone is sleeping. I cant help it. Im probably working 2am-9pm most days (probably more if it wasnt the girlfriend slapping sense into me at times!). I enjoy it though. Unlike my other business's its honestly something i want to grow and struggle to spend as much time as i want to . However, I do make more money from the other business. Go figure.
> 
> Everyone has a way to make it work. The one universal truth i have found (and noticed in this thread) is not to worry about anyone else and work out your own worth. More cars on the road than we could detail between us and the WW's . Expand your circles. Engage new customers. *Most people have to experience bad work to appreciate good work in the motor trade unless they get lucky the first time. Other people just don't have the budget for what they want*. Fair enough.
> 
> ...


Bury your head. Forget the rest and do your best. Standards and level of service provided will show your true potential and totally agree with the highlighted section.


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## Reflectology (Jul 29, 2009)

Beau Technique said:


> *You certainly cant buy your way to the top contrary to what some seem to think*. Strategy is always helpful though I must admit, after working for some pleb. I'd had enough and rather than sit on my 4rse I tackled things head on. Starting out was tough. More so especially selling a high end service to what some class as a glorified car valet. Having my previous business helped me out tremendously to understand where I had slight issues and how to better myself. Persistence is everything. resistance is futile but the main thing is failure is not an option. Be the best at what you do and you will succeed. Even more so if you have failed in the past. Without some form of failure how can you be successful?
> 
> Bury your head. Forget the rest and do your best. Standards and level of service provided will show your true potential and totally agree with the highlighted section.


gonna have to disagree with that mate as you know some can....and seemingly have....


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## Auto Finesse (Jan 10, 2007)

Beau Technique said:


> You certainly cant buy your way to the top contrary to what some seem to think


Im not sure what part of my reply you grasped that from but i think you read it wrong, and i do hope your not implying that towards me?


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## Beau Technique (Jun 21, 2010)

James B said:


> Im not sure what part of my reply you grasped that from but i think you read it wrong, and i do hope your not implying that towards me?


Without sounding ****y or harsh. If it was, you would know James. It was just a statement which I started with and one I stand by and does bare some relevance towards what you siad with regards to having a plan of action ( strategy ) rather than just flashing the cash at the right angles and defeating the object of climbing the ranks through hard work, dedication and commitment. Im sure you can appreciate that.:thumb:


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## MidlandsCarCare (Feb 18, 2006)

Who was it aimed at then?


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## Offyourmarks (Jan 4, 2006)

HeavenlyDetail said:


> @Matt , i applaud you , youve always been a very genuine guy when weve chatted and your ethics are spot on as is your reputation.


Thanks Mark, that's a nice thing to say


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## HeavenlyDetail (Sep 22, 2006)

Thats ok Matt...
On another note i dont think you can buy your way to the top simply by having a hefty bank balance but you can certainly market a company very very well and achieve quicker success that way , BUT once you get there you then have to allow the products to stay there because if the product that has been marketed well isnt upto scratch people will soon start to shout about it. Thats one thing i do believe that James has done well with Auto-Finesse , very point of sale designs that are in the current times of creativity and most places i turn or forums i frequent i see an advert or someone using it which is very well targeted and what most companies employ someone else to do. Very trick in my opinion. Look at Kleers , must have a budget of over £1,000,000 , (Andy is in my opinion a multi millionaire from sumopowers sales) , yet who has seen a single detail done by them , i asked who they were in 2010 and no one knew and only now are we even starting to hear about them and what they do and who in here has even used their finishing lsps? In my opinion very poor marketing but huge budget , catch my drift now?
The thing is clever marketing works! Its so important. I remember very clearly in 2005/6 going to the motorshow to buy the new Honda Civic TypeR , Jenson Button had his F1 car hanging on wires and Honda had their first new model Pearl White Type-R on display , within the last 5 miles to the motorshow all i saw were Vauxhall adverts with the slogan RIP GTI and the new Vxr , the tree lined avenue had banners everywhere and even as we pulled upto the event it was just vxr billboards , i went straight to the Vxr in the motorshow and it was sold , after 6 months of planning and phonecalls to Honda Vauxhalls marketing strategie had pulled me in and the car was the best car ive ever owned for me personally. I can see how Auto-Finesse have worked this out because its growing at a huge rate in my opinion and has such a good reputation , it all looks so easy but behind the scenes some clever heads have turned some cogs and made this happen , it wont have just been just money because money can be burnt without any success , it takes way more and hard work is one of the main ingredients.


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## Auto Finesse (Jan 10, 2007)

Thanks Marc it means a lot.


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## Offyourmarks (Jan 4, 2006)

James B said:


> Thanks Marc it means a lot.


He said some clever heads, so that rules you out puffy southern boy :thumb:


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## Auto Finesse (Jan 10, 2007)

Offyourmarks said:


> He said some clever heads, so that rules you out puffy southern boy :thumb:


He-hey, i see how it is


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