# An ex Professional Detailers musings on.... perception



## Royvdbb (Jan 6, 2011)

Hello All,

Well it's been a year now since I officially left the world of paid detailing. I've changed screenname to reflect the fact that I'm now a 'civilian' with a sponge! I sadly left the pro ranks due to a progressively bad back, which at the age of 27 is not ideal (must better now I must add)... coupled with the fact that as a mobile detailer I spent most of my time on the road and with a new baby that wasn't for me anymore.

I was fortunate / mad enough to run a detailing company for just short of four years and during this time you get to see the 'industry' for a completely different viewpoint to the vast majority who simply enjoy making their own cars look as close to perfection as possible. 

During my time as a 'Pro' I was lucky to have clients with everything from a Vauxhall Astra through to Pagani Zonda and much between.

Although we are all very much into our detailing and car care on this forum, it is worth remembering that for much of the country the term 'detailing' remains a mystery and infact the concept as a whole is completely alien to most car owners. If you know about detailing and the many benefits it brings then practically every car you see will look 'wrong'... but if you've never heard of the term then a quick wash in the supermarket carpark will create automotive perfection!

One thing that always fascinated me was the ability to add vast amounts of percieved value simply by creating the correct 'feel or experience' to a product / service. Now I was clearly a part of this and it rightly is a part of the industry along with many other luxury, non-essential services, but there have been several occasions where I have both deliberately and non-deliberately been surprised by the sway it holds with the general public.

As with many things in life, a large price tag or luxurious description can create a mystique around a product / service that will encourage potential customers to part with their hard earned money. No one would expect the Shangri-La Hotel in Paris to simply say 'This room has a bed, television, shower, bath etc'... they add extras such as luxuriously draped curtains, egyptain cotton bedding, a roll top bath.....' much of this can be transferred to detailing, especially when it comes to waxes and the more 'prestigious' products. A couple of years ago I spoke to a leading wax manufacturer in the UK and tasked them with creating a car wax based on certain requirements. After much testing and remixing the finished product was 'created'... now at this point it was time for me to look for testers. I had an idea in my head of the retail value of this wax, but as an experiment in 'perception' 50% of the testers were told it was to retail at £10 per pot and the other £100 per pot...

The £100 version was sent out in slightly revised packaging but essentially it was exactly the same product... the results were interesting to say the least. Those who experienced the £10 version were reasonably happy, nothing amazing, liked it but could take it or leave it compared with what they use already. Those who had the £100 version absolutely waxed lyrical (excuse the pun) about the product, it was amazing, the depth of shine the finish the smell, they loved it.

Now you could just say that the liked the fact they had a freebie, but the results were dramatically different and correlated perfectly across the two sets of testers. This was based on a sample of 60 people, 30 in each set. For your information, the cost of a pot to be would have been £2.

This has been a subject that has been endlessly discussed on DW, but having been fortunate to try everything up to Royale, it never fails to amaze me how much can be changed in someone when it comes to perceived value.

Enough about wax anyway, that's a whole other post or twenty... I've got a friend with a 54 Reg Mercedes CL600. He onced asked me to give it a 'quick clean' and I duly obliged and simply washed the car and dressed the tyres and arches. Next time he asked what extra could be done, so I told him I could do more and apply something a bit special, generally give the exterior a good going over. Now bare in mind that he knows nothing about the world of detailing and the limits of his experience is the local car wash. As an experiment, I simply did as above and washed the car and dressed the tyres and arches, duly returned the car to him.... and bang, he couldn't believe how amazing it looked, he could feel how smooth the paintwork was and how the wax shimmered in the evening sunlight... even though in reality it was no different than before.

Now, don't get me wrong this is an extreme example and I'm not saying you would ever do this to a paying customer, but as a 'friend' and someone who knows nothing about detailing (I carried out the full service in the end)... he was absolutely seduced by the lavish sounding service I had put in front of him. In reality, it had nothing extra done to it than before, but he perceived the finish as different because of what he expected.

We are fortunate in the country to have some of the very finest detailers in the world... however there are a huge number of people who have jumped on the detailing bandwagon and produce utter rubbish. As the majority of customers have little experience with the service as for many it is a first-generation service/ purchase, it is easy for companies to seduce them and smart talk them into having their car 'detailed'. The double trouble with this is many people don't even know what to expect when having their car detailed... there's often no measure of a previous experience? Coupled with the fact that most people hate to complain. So when poor results are put infront of them, do they really know whether this is right or wrong?

Enough rambling for now... but I'm happy to write a bit more if people are remotely interested. The idea of being a 'professional' detailer is often romanticised and it is undoubtely a fantastic profession, but for any of you thinking of joining the 'pro' ranks believe you me it is unbelievably dedicated and hard work. It's not just doing your car or your friends car, it's about turning out perfection day in and day out on every single inch of every car.

Have a great day.

Roy


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## davZS (Jul 3, 2009)

Brilliant read Roy. I for one would be interested in what else you have to say .


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## big ben (Aug 25, 2009)

nail on the head mate... enjoyed reading your experiences there. I think most of detailing is in your head, there is obviously products which do have a wow factor, but 95% of them all do the same thing really...


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## DAZ MCGUINNESS (Apr 8, 2010)

good read


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## f2mark (Mar 23, 2011)

As someone who is thinking about becoming pro this is very interesting and i would like to know more, fantastic read.


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## Jimmy The Saint (Sep 19, 2010)

Great read Roy! Paint correction is one thing, but dress 10 identical cars with perfect paint in 10 different waxes (£5 to £5000) - I'd be interested to see how many could tell which was which.


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## Dixondmn (Oct 12, 2007)

Royvdbb said:


> Hello All,
> 
> One thing that always fascinated me was the ability to add vast amounts of percieved value simply by creating the correct 'feel or experience' to a product / service. Now I was clearly a part of this and it rightly is a part of the industry along with many other luxury, non-essential services, but there have been several occasions where I have both deliberately and non-deliberately been surprised by the sway it holds with the general public.
> 
> ...


Akin to drinking a pint from a Glass rather than a plastic 'Glass'
The product is the same but the experience is enriched 10 fold when drinking from a real Glass.


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## james_death (Aug 9, 2010)

Oh how true it all is, we can see the much sameness to a lot of products and as you point out an improvement with no products..:lol:

Great read and i look forward to many more of your informed musing's...:thumb:


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## Paulo (Aug 11, 2007)

_Great read, hopefully you will pass on more of your thoughts.....:thumb:_


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## johnnyc (Nov 18, 2008)

top right up and very honest


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## Sneaks (Dec 21, 2010)

Interesting read :thumb:


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## MellowYellow (Oct 20, 2009)

Interesting read and i agree with much you have said. Would be interested to hear more too.


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## Shared (Mar 9, 2009)

A very interesting read, even for someone like me who only ever intends doing their own car, and is conscious of a budget.

Made my coffee all the more enjoyable.


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## gally (May 25, 2008)

Great post Roy. I actually stumbled upon a few of your threads while reserching swissvax waxes a while back.

Hopefully you can write some more for us and give us a good insight into the mad world.

What are you up to now mate?


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## toomanycitroens (Jan 14, 2011)

Great read, very honest indeed.
Many thanks.


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## DetailMyCar (Apr 19, 2010)

Great read, and just on the whole Wax thing I'm honestly not surprised at all that most people would believe the £100 wax was far superior to the £10 one.... It's the same with anything in life, detailing or having your car detailed is a bit of a luxuary in my opinion.....

Think of Wine - That's one of the best out there, let Joe Public taste 2 bottles of wine and hardly any of them would genuinely like the taste of the £5000 bottle over the £4.99 bottle from Tesco.... but if you told them the values before they would believe the £5k wine was far nicer in most cases. 

At the end of the day as it's a luxuary, it doesn't do any harm - if people feel like they are getting far more out of a £100 wax, then that's up to them i suppose, there will always be a market for these guys as there will be the £10 wax or even the £5k waxes some people use.....

Human nature is a funny thing though, i think Detailing just shows it up more how brand snobbery can affect things, and how you can convince yourself something is worth the money if you already have the preconception that it is!


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## Dionysus (May 18, 2010)

Totally agree; the majority of people would not have keen enough an eye to notice such 'defects' such as 'minor wash marring', 'swirl marks', etc. That's left down to us OCD sufferers to obsess over


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## Dan J (Jun 18, 2008)

spot on

"The idea of being a 'professional' detailer is often romantised and it is undoubtely a fantastic profession, but for any of you thinking of joining the 'pro' ranks believe you me it is unbelievably dedicated and hard work. It's not just doing your car or your friends car, it's about turning out perfection day in and day out on every single inch of every car".

couldnt of put it better myself.


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## Royvdbb (Jan 6, 2011)

That's an interesting one...

I'm fortunate enough to have been involved in the wine trade for the last 9 years and I like the analogy you make, however the one dramatic difference is that the quality of the wine increases dramatically as the costs rise, however with waxes I've been fortunate enough to try everything including Divine, Vintage and Royale and to be honest they aren't that amazingly different to many other that are less wallet emptying!

Roy



nickg123 said:


> Great read, and just on the whole Wax thing I'm honestly not surprised at all that most people would believe the £100 wax was far superior to the £10 one.... It's the same with anything in life, detailing or having your car detailed is a bit of a luxuary in my opinion.....
> 
> Think of Wine - That's one of the best out there, let Joe Public taste 2 bottles of wine and hardly any of them would genuinely like the taste of the £5000 bottle over the £4.99 bottle from Tesco.... but if you told them the values before they would believe the £5k wine was far nicer in most cases.
> 
> ...


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## Royvdbb (Jan 6, 2011)

Thanks to everyone who has posted so far, it appears I may have to muse a little more over the coming days!

Luckily there is plenty to talk about... some things that everyone is likely to agree on and other subjects which need some proper discussion.

Thanks again,

Roy


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## TIODGE (Jan 26, 2011)

very good read and well put..


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## dwmc (Jun 6, 2010)

a good interesting read :thumb:


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## gally (May 25, 2008)

Cat, pigeon's everywhere!

I do hope it doesn't turn into "a £5 wax does the same as a £500 wax" we've all been there before and I don't see the need for it again. 

People will buy what they want. Me included.

Thanks again for posting your thoughts, Roy. Oh and isn't it romanticised?


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## Razzzle (Jul 3, 2010)

This thread is an interesting read.

Lots of people get suckered into the marketing game, its the same as in any industry,

Tesco own brand frosties or Kelloggs Frosties? Most people will go for the Kelloggs.

Are they any different? - In reality not really.

Daz.


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## the_names_james (Dec 17, 2010)

Perception = Reality (in most cases)

Interesting thread Roy.


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## TeaTimer (Apr 8, 2007)

Jimmy The Saint said:


> .... Paint correction is one thing, but dress 10 identical cars with perfect paint in 10 different waxes (£5 to £5000) - I'd be interested to see how many could tell which was which.


Absolutely. DW ought to try this test this summer.

Compare this to skin moisturisers

On a young body, the cheapest skin moisturiser will be fine without much prep.

On an older/wrinkly one, more work is required & more suitable ingredients - you have to hydrate the skin (paint correction).

Flat/even skin, flat/even panels = good shine/reflections/glow.


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## Derek Mc (Jun 27, 2006)

Fantastic reading I am so glad that my own self doubt and feelings of "is it just me that cannot see the big difference" is reflected in a professional experience too.


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## cotter (Aug 31, 2008)

Really interesting read Roy, thanks :thumb:


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## Auto Finesse (Jan 10, 2007)

A good read and i agree totally.

However, when it comes to wax so many people over look its main objective, and thats protection and trust me all our tests (and we used to do alot of tests when we where up at the farm) show that durability tends to rise alot when you start getting to the better waxes, that dont mean to say they have to cost 10K a pot but over the 50-100 pounds mark you will start to be in the realms of pretty well developed and specd stuff, finish is finish and thats all in the prep, anyone who knows anything about detailing knows that already.



TeaTimer said:


> Jimmy The Saint said:
> 
> 
> > Great read Roy! Paint correction is one thing, but dress 10 identical cars with perfect paint in 10 different waxes (£5 to £5000) - I'd be interested to see how many could tell which was which.
> ...


Its already been done.


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## CTR De (Feb 10, 2011)

great read and i know exactly what your saying mate


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## Incredible Detail (Sep 26, 2007)

dixon75 said:


> Akin to drinking a pint from a Glass rather than a plastic 'Glass'
> The product is the same but the experience is enriched 10 fold when drinking from a real Glass.


Not really a good comparison here. Barrs the drink company actually agree that their Irn Bru tastes better from a Glass bottle. I've drank it for years and it's not an experience thing. The plastic etc obviously alters the taste of the prouduct slight - as with drinking a pint from a plastic tumbler. Sorry for gong Off Top


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## gregb (Feb 1, 2009)

james b said:


> A good read and i agree totally.
> 
> However, when it comes to wax so many people over look its main objective, and thats protection and trust me all our tests (and we used to do alot of tests when we where up at the farm) show that durability tends to rise alot when you start getting to the better waxes, that dont mean to say they have to cost 10K a pot but over the 50-100 pounds mark you will start to be in the realms of pretty well developed and specd stuff, finish is finish and thats all in the prep, anyone who knows anything about detailing knows that already.


476 is pretty durable :thumb:


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## Royvdbb (Jan 6, 2011)

QUOTE=james b;2713251]A good read and i agree totally.

However, when it comes to wax so many people over look its main objective, and thats protection and trust me all our tests (and we used to do alot of tests when we where up at the farm) show that durability tends to rise alot when you start getting to the better waxes, that dont mean to say they have to cost 10K a pot but over the 50-100 pounds mark you will start to be in the realms of pretty well developed and specd stuff, finish is finish and thats all in the prep, anyone who knows anything about detailing knows that already.

Its already been done.[/QUOTE]

Hi James,

Good to hear from you... absolutely, durability is greatly increased as you go up the scale and as you say it's not just someone throwing together a few ingredients and hoping for the best.

The £10 or £100 wax experiment was simply for me an intriguing insight into how people would respond based on their preconceived ideas. I then took a smaller sample of people and reversed their 'samples', so they essentially had both versions... it was fascinating to see a reversal of their initial comments, even though both pots contained an identical product.

Enough about wax anyway... I'm sure everyone could drown in the endless posts about this subject on DW.

Roy


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## Incredible Detail (Sep 26, 2007)

james b said:


> A good read and i agree totally.
> 
> However, when it comes to wax so many people over look its main objective, and thats protection and trust me all our tests (and we used to do alot of tests when we where up at the farm) show that durability tends to rise alot when you start getting to the better waxes, that dont mean to say they have to cost 10K a pot but over the 50-100 pounds mark you will start to be in the realms of pretty well developed and specd stuff, finish is finish and thats all in the prep, anyone who knows anything about detailing knows that already.


I use the same waxes and sealants you use (well had on your site, not sure what you use now) and pretty much agree. Most of these people that say they're all the same have no real life experience of being a pro detailer and putting these on to loads of cars that live very different lifes. Supernatural is good and is my standard wax (don't use it that much though - usually use Vintage or C1) but Vintage is way better in loads of different ways that I won't bother going in to.

Yes detailing is about an experience but that's not a bad thing if you provide customers with all round great experience - not just making their car look amazing.

It's only a bad thing if your trying to sell your service on the detailing experience then doing a rubbish job and charging a lot of money for it. Was speaking to a valeter up my way the other day and he takes the same for a weekly 45 minute job that I take for an hour so detailing on seems more expensive because of the time scales involved in doing a job properly.

Every where I go now I see detailing here and detailing there but I never worry about the competition and just crack on because the vast majority of these people are trying to jump on the band wagon and won't last / every get the top of the game where they're doing Porsches, Astons and Ferraris all day long with some Hyper cars mixed in every now and again.


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## Incredible Detail (Sep 26, 2007)

gregb said:


> 476 is pretty durable :thumb:


Is that the one that's not trim safe?

As mentioned best not turn this in to a post about waxes!


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## Royvdbb (Jan 6, 2011)

Indeed



Incredible Detail said:


> Yes detailing is about an experience but that's not a bad thing if you provide customers with all round great experience - not just making their car look amazing. QUOTE]


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## Auto Finesse (Jan 10, 2007)

gregb said:


> 476 is pretty durable :thumb:


:lol: bit more to it than that, but i dont want to mess thins thread up with trying to define where you draw the line to waxes and sealants, but there is a bit more to it than that


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## Summit Detailing (Oct 9, 2006)

Enjoyable read Roy & I couldn't agree more.

Look forward to further posts:thumb:


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## big ben (Aug 25, 2009)

james b said:


> trust me all our tests (and we used to do alot of tests when we where up at the farm) show that durability tends to rise alot when you start getting to the better waxes


do people seriously still buy waxes for durability though, with all these sealants now on the market... I like using a nice wax dont get me wrong, but if i wanted durabilty i wouldnt use a wax unless it was over a sealant!

The expensive products feel special, so i buy them for that reson alone usually.


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## Royvdbb (Jan 6, 2011)

I think one of the important points here is that I'm certainly not trying to say that companies should all end up offering generic, bland services where no creativity, marketing or PR is used... what an uninspiring, generic and limited world we would live in if this was the case. If I book in for a meal at Alain Ducasse at The Dorchester I want to have the excitement and fairytale aspect to be there... but I also think that, with regards to detailing... it can be used to hide inferior, downright poor service and workmanship, especially in a market where people aren't always familiar with 'what is what'. 

Roy


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## chrisc (Jun 15, 2008)

good read that nice to see some one go into detail like davekg and gordon used to.
But they seem not to be on here anymore


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## Royvdbb (Jan 6, 2011)

I have to say I'm really pleased that this has 'hopefully' gone down well. I don't claim to be the 'best', nor do I claim to have had the most experience... but I think sometimes we can all get bogged down with just talking about products etc and it's nice to have a bit of a chat on the 'bigger' issues in our happy world of automotive perfection!

Leave the next muse with me.....

Hope you're all having a great evening.

Roy


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## gally (May 25, 2008)

chrisc said:


> good read that nice to see some one go into detail like davekg and gordon used to.
> But they seem not to be on here anymore


Well said Chris.


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## orienteer (Aug 17, 2009)

With a forum now packed with information it's refreshing to read about perception and business practice.

People do get somewhat hung up on the LSP. Thankfully the more worldly members are often there to re-state the essential fact that seperates detailing from valetting or washing...it's the paints condition. It's this that needs to be detailed back to as close to factory standard as possible that gives 95% of the amazing end result. The LSP is the icing on the corrected cake that makes a detail, rather than valet, so distinctive.

Whatever LSP you do use, IMO the proof of detailing is in the owners response, it's when they say "the car looks better than when they bought it" or when "they look forward to driving in it because it's so 'clean'".

Attention to detail is that time consuming element of the profession that would-be pro's need to ensure they can commit to. It's this trait in detailers that stands out in so many Studio threads and leads to that vital, yet well deserved, professional reputation.

Thanks again for your insightful thoughts.

Cheers, Ian


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## Black Magic Detail (Aug 17, 2010)

a good read "reassuringly expensive"


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## johnnyc (Nov 18, 2008)

One thing that annoyed me was when i detailed a car machined , sealed the whole thing. 
Looked really nice owner loved it. 
Then a month later they took it to a £5 hand car wash and the same owner claimed that the £5 car gave the same result as my detail. So i felt like i wasted my time, makes me think why i bother with snow foam and the likes.


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## gally (May 25, 2008)

Just take a sun gun down to his house and show him how much difference there really is.


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## DetailMyCar (Apr 19, 2010)

johnnyc said:


> One thing that annoyed me was when i detailed a car machined , sealed the whole thing.
> Looked really nice owner loved it.
> Then a month later they took it to a £5 hand car wash and the same owner claimed that the £5 car gave the same result as my detail. So i felt like i wasted my time, makes me think why i bother with snow foam and the likes.


Equally because of your hard work the dirt was probably just rinsed off really, no Tar or bugs would have been welded on like a car that's never been detailed in its life!


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## L4CKL (Nov 27, 2010)

gally said:


> Just take a sun gun down to his house and show him how much difference there really is.


but if the customer is not concerned or bothered about that or doesn't understand the difference then you will always struggle to change their mind.

as other people have already said, some customers just want some dirty water thrown over the car and will be over the moon with the results


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## Alex_225 (Feb 7, 2008)

That is a great read and confirms the thinking I've had for a while now. 

I got into detailing in the quest for perfection for my pride and joy. I did a lot of reading, a lot of question asking and feel that I have a good understanding of detailing as a whole. 

The dangerous thing is that it's very easy when you are gaining that knowledge to thinking that price = quality. If you buy a product that's pricey and has an image you like it MUST be a good product. To the extent that upon initial reading totally wrote off the brands I interpreted as 'cheap' such as Autoglym or Meguiars for products that were more expensive and that I deemed as better. 

Ironically, the more I've read up on detailing the bigger the variety of products I've gone for, where now off the shelf products feature in my detailing routines as much as the more exclusive products. To give you an idea my latest LSP was Simoniz Original wax which I was rather impressed with.  

Also to give an example of perception by other people. I belong to a few modified car clubs and there was at one point quite an interest in detailing from some members. A lot of people went straight in for Dodo Juice products, not because they they were good but because it's a very fashionable brand plus more pricey than what they were used to, so therefore must be good products. To the point where I've seen people going 'I want the whole Dodo Juice collection' purely because of the branding. They could have been crap products but being percieved as cool, exclusive and expensive sucks people in. By the way I do like Dodo Juice products so that name was purely as an example. 

These same people still go down to the local car wash but think their trendy wax will still make their car look amazing. It's all in the perception! 

If you gave a chimp a wash mitt, two buckets, a jet wash and a load of very expensive products he wouldn't make your car look good. 

If you give a knowledgeable pro or even amateur detailer a selection of cheap products they make your car look better than the chimp could. 

Strange example but it makes sense to me haha.


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## Leodhasach (Sep 15, 2008)

Very interesting OP, and good comments too.

I can see how it would be all too easy for the uninitiated or inexperienced to suffer from the 'smoke and mirrors' effect, either by buying needlessly expensive products like Alex alluded to above, or having no way of knowing if the work of a 'professional' is really up to scratch just as the OP mentions.

I suppose that's where the DW Supporters list and the Studio really come into there own, as we can usually be sure that the quality of work is there.

Myself (hobbyist, not pro), I initially started with the Meguiar's retail range of products, and nothing wrong with them either for the casual car enthusiast. When I then found this place, I decided to step things up somewhat. Unfortunately, I fell into the marketing trap and bought things I didn't need or were overpriced. Much of this was down to the 'hype' when a new product arrives or if something comes into fashion, which is one of the downsides of DW...often, there are better or more suitable products out there. As a result, I ended up buying and then selling off a number of products. Funnily enough, most of those were waxes! I hadn't focused on the preparation stages, the most important stages, like I should have and now do.

I have now streamlined things a bit. Sticking to products that work and not limiting myself to one manufacturer or supplier, using bulk trade products instead of retail ranges where suitable, and only buying expensive waxes because I want to try them just for the experience (I'm weird), not because it'll make my car X times shinier, as I do focus on the preparation stages now.

This has all come with hours of trawling through the guides and posts on here (the Studio section is an excellent way to really see things discussed in other topics in action), and sorting the wheat from the chaff. 

Detailing World in a fantastic resource with some top people (both in their field and simply as human beings), but there are some things the new member or inexperienced would-be detailer should be aware of. It's easy to fall for the hype, like I did, but also with the recent expansion of the site (generally a good thing), there are now lots of people willing to answer any questions (again, a good thing) but some of them either don't have the experience yet or are just following the wave of hype and recommending a product without actually trying it themselves. This is how misinformation can spread, so be careful about what you listen to. On the other hand, don't be scared to try new products or techniques, so long as you go in with your eyes open and do a bit of your own research. 

Personally, I think the evolution of the detailing 'scene' may also be partially be why some of the original members, who did much to pioneer detailing in the UK, no longer frequent the site (although this is purely my own opinion and I'm well aware that they will have other priorities and things on, such as Dave KG's teacher training).

To summarise, there is so much in this business that comes down to image; either in how a product is marketed and perceived, or how an individual gains work and markets his/her services. As long as the substance behind the packaging is up to scratch, that's not a problem, but there are too many overpriced products and weekend warriors out there now. That said, for me it's an enjoyable hobby that I hope to continue for a long time to come. I learn new things, I meet some great people, and my car looks great as a result. Done properly, it's a real skill, an art, and I would love to have the determination and ability of some of the professionals and supporters on here.

We're here because we appreciate attention to detail...the clue is in the name after all, and there's nothing wrong with a bit of luxury marketing or treatment on the part of professionals or manufacturers, as long as you are careful. If someone goes astray, at best they have spent more money than they had to. At worst, they'll ruin their car, or somebody else's.

Happy Detailing everyone :buffer: :thumb:

Andrew

EDIT: Long and rambling, but not bad for my 1000th post


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## Incredible Detail (Sep 26, 2007)

johnnyc said:


> One thing that annoyed me was when i detailed a car machined , sealed the whole thing.
> Looked really nice owner loved it.
> Then a month later they took it to a £5 hand car wash and the same owner claimed that the £5 car gave the same result as my detail. So i felt like i wasted my time, makes me think why i bother with snow foam and the likes.


Granted it's a bit annoying but I look at it 2 ways. 1 - you don't want customers like that and wouldn't waste my breath explaining if their not interested. 2 - He'll possibly learn the error of his ways in months to come when the car is not still looking as good after many £5 car washes and you'll get to re do it. Maybe detalings not for him.


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## bazves (Mar 24, 2011)

Wow, great thread, first post so be gentle :thumb:

I'm a new to this whole thing only having recently discovered the world of clay, 2BM and snow foam 

I have a few bits so far (mix of AG and Megs stuff mainly) and just bought a Nilfisk C110 based upon comments here (well chuffed with that so far)

I must admit I've been woo-ed by expensive products and fancy brands, so I'll think alot more carefully about what I buy in future.

Great forum by the way


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## eurodriver (May 9, 2010)

Deff a great read!!! thanx!


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## Red_Cloverleaf (Jul 26, 2009)

Roy,

That was the "best" post I have ever read on this Forum - completely honest and frank.

Interesting to see that none of the manufacturers or sponsors have chimed in.


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## uruk hai (Apr 5, 2009)

This thread has certainly struck a chord and its not hard to see why, it is nice to read something where the OP's only agenda is the expresion of a well informed, honest and unbiased opinion.

Thanks for taking the time to start this thread :thumb:


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## Incredible Detail (Sep 26, 2007)

Red_Cloverleaf said:


> Roy,
> 
> That was the "best" post I have ever read on this Forum - completely honest and frank.
> 
> Interesting to see that none of the manufacturers or sponsors have chimed in.


 Sponsors have "chimed in"


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## Red_Cloverleaf (Jul 26, 2009)

Incredible Detail said:


> Sponsors have "chimed in"


I'll rephrase it to *manufacturers* foy you then. OK?


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## Beau Technique (Jun 21, 2010)

Royvdbb said:


> Hello All,
> 
> *1:*We are fortunate in the country to have some of the very finest detailers in the world... however there are a huge number of people who have jumped on the detailing bandwagon and produce utter rubbish. As the majority of customers have little experience with the service as for many it is a first-generation service/ purchase, it is easy for companies to seduce them and smart talk them into having their car 'detailed'. The double trouble with this is many people don't even know what to expect when having their car detailed... there's often no measure of a previous experience? Coupled with the fact that most people hate to complain. So when poor results are put infront of them, do they really know whether this is right or wrong?
> 
> *2:*Enough rambling for now... but I'm happy to write a bit more if people are remotely interested. The idea of being a 'professional' detailer is often romanticised and it is undoubtely a fantastic profession, but for any of you thinking of joining the 'pro' ranks believe you me it is unbelievably dedicated and hard work. It's not just doing your car or your friends car, it's about turning out perfection day in and day out on every single inch of every car.


Great input Roy. These 2 areas have jumped out at me.

*1:*Nail on the head. There are so many competent out there including those labelled as "Weekend warriors" or "Hobbiest". The argument always sivs in when running costs, overhead absorption rates, insurances etc come into play. Folks tend to like the safety net of insurances and a vast majority of clientel will ask if this is in place prior to bookings. Times, folks have been bitten badly by a non full time detailer and never had the chance of any fall back. The BMW im working on over the weekend is going to take me some 20 hours + to rectify and would of been a touch straight forward had there not been a part time chap already butchering the finish. £200 left my clients pocket and all he was left with was cutting marring and swirl marks which he comissioned this chappie to undertake the work and rid of them. What would of been a straight forward average £400 job will of cost him substantially more and I for one feel sadened that he has had to go through this. Great, ive got another sizeable job, not so great for my poor client whom has been stung already and been left lighter in wallet and with a still poor looking car. The guy whom carried out the work has a website, prices from £380 - £650 +. Im shocked.

*2:*It is slightly glamorised and does take a solid hearted commitment to see the trade through. Once you've started you cant just give up on a job half way through because its too hard or it feels like its taking too long. When its done, its done. How do you put a time on perfection? Dedication, commitment and passion play major roles in success.


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## jedi-knight83 (Aug 11, 2006)

Im confused... are you the ROy i met at goodwood (looking after PBs CGT?)


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## Royvdbb (Jan 6, 2011)

jedi-knight83 said:


> Im confused... are you the ROy i met at goodwood (looking after PBs CGT?)


Hi, no I used to run theshinexperience. Roy


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## ch96066 (Oct 17, 2010)

Genuinely good thread and thoughts from many posters.

I am a 'weekend warrior' so far. Doing the reading on multiple forums in Greece, the US and of course on DW.

I am trying to build an arsenal of tried and tested products that seem to enjoy general (world-wide even) acceptance. It is indeed difficult to resist the sirens of the new miracle working product. Testing is undoubtedly good, but informed testing is even better.

Very briefly on waxes. I have not tried many. Most probably I wouldn't be able to differentiate (even on my car) the looks of S100, from the DJ banana armour or the RG55. It is then also ease of use, durability/longevity and the product image/total usage experience coming into play.

Regarding professional detailing (if I ever were to follow it) my take would be that you need to be honest and informative to the customer. I think these core behaviours will ensure repeated business and word of mouth expansion. I would ask my customer to give me half an hour to show him/talk him through what his hard earned cash is buying. For example, show him the magic of claying a test spot and he will think 'wow this guy is transforming my car'.

In my mind, the majority of people have sufficient judgment to differentiate eventually the value adding proffessional from the opportunistic one. There is value added in detailing in many levels both for the detailer and also for the 'detailee'. Artistic/aesthetic, sanitary and even psychological. All that is needed is hard work and willingness to walk people through these benefits.

Once again great thread!


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## pogo6636 (Jan 18, 2009)

slightly off topic, but,



Leodhasach said:


> Very interesting OP, and good comments too.
> 
> I can see how it would be all too easy for the uninitiated or inexperienced to suffer from the 'smoke and mirrors' effect, either by buying needlessly expensive products like Alex alluded to above, or having no way of knowing if the work of a 'professional' is really up to scratch just as the OP mentions.
> 
> ...





bazves said:


> Wow, great thread, first post so be gentle :thumb:
> 
> I'm a new to this whole thing only having recently discovered the world of clay, 2BM and snow foam
> 
> ...


two posts next to each other.

first post and one thousanth post. These are the things that make this place special. all for one and one for all.

sorry op,
back on topic.

Really enjoying this thread.
something totally different and thought provoking.


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## HeavenlyDetail (Sep 22, 2006)

Roy you,ve always been a great guy with me , utter respect .... thats all..


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## Incredible Detail (Sep 26, 2007)

Red_Cloverleaf said:


> I'll rephrase it to *manufacturers* foy you then. OK?


You're not really rephrasing it for me personally. I'm sure I'm not the only one that read sponsors and manufacturers haven't commented. Not sure of the point in putting this in bold as if I've made a dig at you?

I was simply pointing out that what you said was wrong and sponsors have chimed in. Nothing personal.


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## Mirror Finish Details (Aug 21, 2008)

Alex_225 said:


> That is a great read and confirms the thinking I've had for a while now.
> 
> I got into detailing in the quest for perfection for my pride and joy. I did a lot of reading, a lot of question asking and feel that I have a good understanding of detailing as a whole.
> 
> ...


Personally I do not rate Dodo Joice products at all. over hyped and over marketed. The waxes are pretty poor and the prices are stupid.


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## big ben (Aug 25, 2009)

Mirror Finish said:


> Personally I do not rate Dodo Joice products at all. over hyped and over marketed. The waxes are pretty poor and the prices are stupid.


the shampoos are good, but they are a good example of what good marketing can do in detailing.

Much prefer companies like Wolf Chemicals, Jesse wanted the packaging to be plain, he wanted people to like the products for what they do, not the flashy logo... which is what its all about in my mind


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## Red_Cloverleaf (Jul 26, 2009)

Incredible Detail said:


> You're not really rephrasing it for me personally. I'm sure I'm not the only one that read sponsors and manufacturers haven't commented. Not sure of the point in putting this in bold as if I've made a dig at you?
> 
> I was simply pointing out that what you said was wrong and sponsors have chimed in. Nothing personal.


I am rephrasing it for you personally, as you are the only person who has commented on the point.

Sponsors or Supporters? :lol:

I put it in bold so it was clear - not for any other reason. 

Nothing personal taken.


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## L200 Steve (Oct 25, 2005)

Surely there's always going to be some correlation between the cost of the LSP and the amount of effort put into preparing the surface it's going to be applied to?

I wouldn't expect many people put the amount of effort into preparation to apply a £10 wax as they would to apply a £1000 wax. Surely if you are prepared to invest the £££ in purchasing the last stage, and you are correctly informed, then you'll put the hours into the preparation, and reap the rewards on offer.

Take this thread for example - http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=26111&highlight=customer+service

Would Epoch have got the same results if he'd have just of applied the Vintage half heartedly one Saturday afternoon after just a quick rub down with some suds and a sponge?

I'd really like to put my Vintage onto my car, but really can't justify the time spent polishing and preparing the surface to do the wax justice. The wax can stay in the fridge, till the time is right.

On the odd occasion I wash the car these days, it still draws the "wow, have you just detailed it" comments from those that know how I used to spend my free time detailing. I don't expect I'd receive any different comments from people if I spent 40 hours (again) detailing it and waxing it right. I'd know though.

Behind most of the great details back in the early days were normally a person or people who I guess had the right ethics to be not only the best at detailing, but probably at whatever they did. After watching one or two of the top pro's on here detail honestly to the best of their ability, i always felt that they'd compliment what ever they did as a profession.

One of the best things about detailing having to be the camaraderie of all those met along the way. This getting lost once the pastime turned into a profession. The enjoyment of detailing with a mate surely getting lost when forced to detail for customers? The "Each one teach ones", the great detailing meets, these always more fun than grinding away at some rich blokes Roll's Royce? (Epoch, I have fonder memories of the ride home in the recovery trucks than I do of that one!!!)

Going back in time to my first experience's in detailing with the Megs 1, 2, 3 range, would I change anything knowing what I know now?

Nah, I had too much fun and met too many great mates along the way. It's all in the prep and like life you only get out what you put in. The laughs as important as the end shine these days.


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## Guest (Apr 2, 2011)

Nice post steve :thumb:


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## stealthwolf (Sep 24, 2008)

Incredible Detail said:


> Not really a good comparison here. Barrs the drink company actually agree that their Irn Bru tastes better from a Glass bottle. I've drank it for years and it's not an experience thing. The plastic etc obviously alters the taste of the prouduct slight - as with drinking a pint from a plastic tumbler. Sorry for gong Off Top


Personally found a similar phenomenon with Coca-Cola. Tastes best from a can, okay from a 2 litre bottle and I avoid buying it from a 500 ml bottle as it just doesn't taste as good. Friends have found it different to my experience.

Consequently, although there may well be different perceptions of the same product, they may well be different preferences too which will always influence things.

Without naming names, I bought a £10 wax on the recommendation of this forum. Didn't think it was anything special, and found it difficult to apply and remove. This was at the start of my detailing journey. I then wanted to buy a £100 wax that was hyped by everyone here. When I went to a detailer to b have a chat, I ended up buying a £30 wax. I did like it a lot. However, the yearning to buy that £100 wax became greater so I bought it. Duly prepped the car and applied it. I didn't think it added anything to my finish - in fact, instead of curing nicely, it dulled the paint. Since then, I've stuck with my £10 wax. Once the weather warms up more, I plan to try out the £30 wax again.

It does become disconcerting when people try to become "pro-detailers" when they are really not a huge amount better than "intermedate". I think the maxim "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing" can be applied here - there are those who think they know what they're doing and think they can charge pro rata for their work.

I've spent close to £1000 on products that by and large just sit on the shelf. My current armory would cost maybe £100 at the most. There's been a huge explosion in detailing recently and it's reflected in places like halfords where almost every company has a clay kit. This can only dilute the market and confuse the general public who will be disappointed with the results (assumin the products aren't of a particularly high standard).


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## Avanti (Jan 17, 2006)

stealthwolf said:


> Personally found a similar phenomenon with Coca-Cola. Tastes best from a can, okay from a 2 litre bottle and I avoid buying it from a 500 ml bottle as it just doesn't taste as good. Friends have found it different to my experience.
> 
> Consequently, although there may well be different perceptions of the same product, they may well be different preferences too which will always influence things.
> 
> ...


For me coca cola has to be from a glass bottle :thumb:
Anyways I like the read about the wax, I'm not sure which £10 wax it was, I assume the Simoniz (although not highly recommened on DW) using a sponge applicator and microfibre plus covering the whole car before buffing off can prove difficult, but that said I found similar with RG42 when 1st used, ever since I adhere to the mfrs application suggestion :thumb:
I'm a little confused as to why you stopped using the £30 wax though?

I agree there has been an explosion of re-branding and product launches in the OTC sector.
One thing though is I don't think the OTC products ever promise the earth which leads to less chance of dissapointment.


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## stealthwolf (Sep 24, 2008)

The £30 is great but not sure about durability - it didn't get much of an outing last year since I just walked to work. As I said, over the next few weeks, I will strip off the winter protection and give the £30 wax another go. It shined through for me on the few occasions I used it.


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## marksman (Mar 19, 2011)

Excellent read, I'm sure I suffer from "high price good" syndrome ??


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## Incredible Detail (Sep 26, 2007)

Red_Cloverleaf said:


> I am rephrasing it for you personally, as you are the only person who has commented on the point.
> 
> Sponsors or Supporters? :lol:
> 
> ...


We''ll agree to disagree then :thumb:


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## gally (May 25, 2008)

L200 Steve said:


> Surely there's always going to be some correlation between the cost of the LSP and the amount of effort put into preparing the surface it's going to be applied to?
> 
> I wouldn't expect many people put the amount of effort into preparation to apply a £10 wax as they would to apply a £1000 wax. Surely if you are prepared to invest the £££ in purchasing the last stage, and you are correctly informed, then you'll put the hours into the preparation, and reap the rewards on offer.
> 
> ...


Nice to see a post from one of the great, Steve.


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## uruk hai (Apr 5, 2009)

gally said:


> Nice to see a post from one of the great, Steve.


Completely agree :thumb:


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## DetailMe (Jan 13, 2011)

L200 steve I whole heartedly agree with everything you said! The most sense I've heard in a long time. 
Chris


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## DetailMe (Jan 13, 2011)

And to add a bit of insight from a supporter, I do agree with the op and most of what is said on this thread. You've got too look through the bs with most things in life, it's a fact. There will always be favourites to some and not others and there will be always disagreements, that's human nature.

Chris


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## dwmc (Jun 6, 2010)

DetailMe said:


> And to add a bit of insight from a supporter, I do agree with the op and most of what is said on this thread. You've got too look through the bs with most things in life, it's a fact. There will always be favourites to some and not others and there will be always disagreements, that's human nature.
> 
> Chris


and to add thats what makes this site a good one , great for honest reviews wether good bad liked or not liked it`s all about honesty :thumb:


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## Ross1308 (Sep 3, 2010)

Brilliant thread, well worth the read.


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