# Advice on repairing small rust hole



## Brungle (Dec 6, 2009)

Morning gents,

I've got a little mpv that I'm converting into a weekend camper and I've been stripping it out and as expected there is a few little bits of rust (its old). This is the worst of it where theres a little hole in the rear corner.

Can you recommend some products to sorting this please? I understand you can get some kind of mesh that you put resin/fiberglass/filler over. Just not sure what to buy?

thanks alot
Rich


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## Andyb0127 (Jan 16, 2011)

If you can shape a piece of metal slightly over size to fit the hole, cut out where the rust is, apply panel bonding place metal plate over the top clamp it down. And to save welding it use a panel bonding. Leave to cure for twenty four hours then apply some primer to it seam seal the edges speak in body colour job done.

http://www.lord.com/products-and-solutions/adhesives/automotive-repair-adhesives/product.xml/289


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## Brungle (Dec 6, 2009)

Andyb0127 said:


> If you can shape a piece of metal slightly over size to fit the hole, cut out where the rust is, apply panel bonding place metal plate over the top clamp it down. And to save welding it use a panel bonding. Leave to cure for twenty four hours then apply some primer to it seam seal the edges speak in body colour job done.
> 
> http://www.lord.com/products-and-solutions/adhesives/automotive-repair-adhesives/product.xml/289


thanks for the quick response mate, I'll see if I have anything in the shed if not would a sheet of this be suitable?:
http://www.diy.com/nav/build/buildi...oloured-L-500mm-W-250mm-9284136?skuId=9293836


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## SurGie (Aug 6, 2010)

That looks like a structual place where strength needs to be, if so then welding is the best solutin.

For small holes i use an aluminium mesh plate from my local car parts then use some fibreglass filler to sort of glue it into the clean steel and smooth over.


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## Brungle (Dec 6, 2009)

the bolt holes are for a seat belt mounting which is no longer being used.

if I have to get it welded does anyone have a rough idea how much I'm looking at?


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## Andyb0127 (Jan 16, 2011)

SurGie said:


> That looks like a structual place where strength needs to be, if so then welding is the best solutin.
> 
> For small holes i use an aluminium mesh plate from my local car parts then use some fibreglass filler to sort of glue it into the clean steel and smooth over.


Even if its structual these panel bonding is a structual adhesive. 
Repair wise on cars we are now bonding and riveting quarter panels on, with no welding at all, even structual parts like chassis rails, a/b pillars inner sill, outer sill, rear panels, seat belt areas, we are now bonding and riveting, the days of welding and spot welding are disappearing.

This link from 3m may help.

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&s...v-gcgI&usg=AFQjCNGECvwE7OvMH9LY-seNbgT4O8taIA


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## Andyb0127 (Jan 16, 2011)

Brungle said:


> thanks for the quick response mate, I'll see if I have anything in the shed if not would a sheet of this be suitable?:
> http://www.diy.com/nav/build/buildi...oloured-L-500mm-W-250mm-9284136?skuId=9293836


As long as its the same gauge steel, then it will be fine.


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## SurGie (Aug 6, 2010)

Nothing is a strong as welding, especially if the surface isnt very clean before applying that stuff.

To me that area once cleaned up and metal removed will no doubt show far more rust behind it. If you prepare it welding will be much cheaper and tbh i cant quote a price before i see the full extent of the damage. Floorpan to sill is part of the chassis so im sure it will need to be well done in case the car had an accident.

I guess you can do it how you want as long as it passes the mot.

I dont know how much that stuff is but fibreglass filler im sure will be cheaper.


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## Andyb0127 (Jan 16, 2011)

SurGie said:


> Nothing is a strong as welding, especially if the surface isnt very clean before applying that stuff.
> 
> To me that area once cleaned up and metal removed will no doubt show far more rust behind it. If you prepare it welding will be much cheaper and tbh i cant quote a price before i see the full extent of the damage. Floorpan to sill is part of the chassis so im sure it will need to be well done in case the car had an accident.
> 
> ...


I can understand the doubt fullness. 
But if done properly and repaired following the bmw,Mercedes, methods and procedures it does work, and was heavily tested by said motor company's and is just as strong as welding if not stronger. Any bodyshops now with approvals by motor companies that are using this procedure will have to use as part of the approval.

This is a procedure showing a bmw 5 series quarter panel being bonded and riveted, which I did and posted up to show people about it.

http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=240215


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## SurGie (Aug 6, 2010)

I get what you are saying, however it relies on surface being clean and no doubt the stuff will age overtime and become weaker unlike welding that joins two pieces of steel together effectivly making it one piece of steel in one when done properly.

People dont and sure wont ever stick a roll cage in a car and will always weld them in due to safety.


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## Andyb0127 (Jan 16, 2011)

SurGie said:


> I get what you are saying, however it relies on surface being clean and no doubt the stuff will age overtime and become weaker unlike welding that joins two pieces of steel together effectivly making it one piece of steel in one when done properly.
> 
> People dont and sure wont ever stick a roll cage in a car and will always weld them in due to safety.


We're not taking about roll cages tho, that's just taking it out of context. 
Basically its been tested and proven to work, do it wouldn't be used. It doesn't affect the structural integrity of the car no matter where or what has been replaced using bonding and riveting. All motor company's are going down this route eventually. It's a case of moving with the times, with the car industry and body repairs is doing. Yes there will still be the smaller bodyshops which are welding and spot welding panels, but if you want all the approvals then your going to have to buy all the tools and materials that are needed to meet there approval.


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## craigeh123 (Dec 26, 2011)

Lotus bond their chassis together on some vehicles


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## SurGie (Aug 6, 2010)

That may as well be, in 15 years we will see how well it puts up with a smash. Im not out of context at all, in a smash a welded body will be far stronger than some poxy glue alone. Car body shops should replace like for like, so its orginal and tbh its a cheap fix not professionally done else it would be done like for like. Thats why rallye cars are welded up with plates etc. All chassis move duribg itsnlife so this movement will eventually affect the glue and may let water in, iv messed about with all sorts of 2k products and not yet has been undestructable, i just prefer well known strength.

If filler on bare steel can rust then im sure this glue will let water in or steel surface will start to rust. Iv seen pro done filler have rust underneith it in my time. This is why i epoxy prime a bare panel before i use filler.

If a car was originally spot welded the new panels should be done the same way, gluing it means we loose some proper craftsman skills.


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## Andyb0127 (Jan 16, 2011)

SurGie said:


> That may as well be, in 15 years we will see how well it puts up with a smash. Im not out of context at all, in a smash a welded body will be far stronger than some poxy glue alone. Car body shops should replace like for like, so its orginal and tbh its a cheap fix not professionally done else it would be done like for like. Thats why rallye cars are welded up with plates etc. All chassis move duribg itsnlife so this movement will eventually affect the glue and may let water in, iv messed about with all sorts of 2k products and not yet has been undestructable, i just prefer well known strength.
> 
> If filler on bare steel can rust then im sure this glue will let water in or steel surface will start to rust. Iv seen pro done filler have rust underneith it in my time. This is why i epoxy prime a bare panel before i use filler.
> 
> If a car was originally spot welded the new panels should be done the same way, gluing it means we loose some proper craftsman skills.


It is out of context because all your waffling on about are rally cars, not what I'm talking about. You really think bodyshops have the time to epoxy panels before repairing them, I very much doubt it. Gluing still takes the same sort of skills fitting a panel making it line up.

Still you will always have the doubters and believers.

Doubters are people that don't move with the times and stay in a rut, not prepared to try new products because they think there way is best, not always the case.

Believers are people that will move with the times, as the bodywork trade is changing all the time with products, procedures, its how the future of bodywork is and believers will move with it.

Still this debate could go on forever, and not get anywhere you've got your opinion, I've got mine. Neither is right or wrong we just both believe in diffrerent ways.


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## Andyb0127 (Jan 16, 2011)

craigeh123 said:


> Lotus bond their chassis together on some vehicles


Yes mate they do, as do Aston Martin with some of there chassis.


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## Cthrower (Sep 19, 2011)

SurGie said:


> tbh its a cheap fix not professionally done else it would be done like for like.
> If a car was originally spot welded the new panels should be done the same way, gluing it means we loose some proper craftsman skills.


Car companies are moving toward bonding now instead of welding. Therefore, using these methods is "replacing like for like" and is a *MUST* if your doing repairs for approval.

Also, if a lot of the bigger named companies are moving towards these methods then it proves they have been thoroughly tested for reliability, strength, safety etc etc. 
New methods go through thorough testing before they're bought into the market

As Andy said, it's all about moving with the times. 
For example, how many people years ago would of been against using body fillers instead of using lead.


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## Aaran (Sep 18, 2007)

lead still has its place, and its far superior to body filler in all aspects of durability/finish and rot resistance. (i still use a mix of both lead and filler, filler is super fast and easy to use if dusty lol)

just a shame its either high end resto shops or sole users like me that still use it (due to the H&s aspect of it not to mention the time it takes to use it and the skill involved and more importantly the cost of the stuff in todays money) 

i can see the place and advantage of gluing panels, its alot faster than welding and finishing welds then having to sort out the distortion from the heat it creates. i cant ever see me using it mind, most of the things i get are pre 1998 cars so ill stick to the welder and my hammers and dollies 

i bet in the next 20 years alot of cars will be fully composite or plastic and the days of metal will be long gone.


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## SurGie (Aug 6, 2010)

I doubt they have tested this glue over 15 years with road salt etc, again rally cars need strength and road cars do too so i know which i would prefer when the car is getting old.

Again filler can cause rot underneith and lead does not, the same could apply with bonding glue over time else they would not rivit the panels.


As for welding, yes it will be quicker so they go for the cheapest way possible, it wont be like for like as manu requiremens will be spot welded originally. Just because times are moving forward does not mean its any good in the longrun, it has to rely on adhesion to steel, welding becomes the steel. Guess it does depend on how many rivits used as using a lot would mean no need for glue, not using many relys on glue lasting a long time n have great adhesion to steel thats been prepped properly n as we all know not all places prep properly.

Welding can be done without warping the steel or having to grind down the welds if its been done well, weld a pool then when it half cools down weld another pool just past the first one and so on. This is the thin metal technique which means the surrounding steel doesnt get too hot like continuous welds do.

I wont and cant do lead filling so i go use epoxy rust proof primer before using filler, its the best way to stop rot forming without the need for lead.


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## Chris79100 (Jan 27, 2011)

I think that if all body's for racing or track days are welded there's a reason ;-) 
rigidity it is


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## Brungle (Dec 6, 2009)

some interesting points. I've never embarked on this kind of stuff before and I think the rust to left of the hole is probably worse than it looks in the photo so I'm taking it to a garage on Saturday morning for a quote as I think by the time I've spent on materials etc and it will take me ages I could pay a little bit more and get a proper job done.

I'll post back with an update at the weekend.


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## PootleFlump (Jan 1, 2006)

I'd use something like this to repair that hole http://tinyurl.com/qy6u7qx


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## squiggs (Oct 19, 2009)

PootleFlump said:


> I'd use something like this to repair that hole http://tinyurl.com/qy6u7qx


That's square! the hole is round! 
You can't fit a square peg in round hole ......


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## Aaran (Sep 18, 2007)

you can with an angle grinder and a big hammer :lol:


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## Brungle (Dec 6, 2009)

Ho ho ho.........


Got a quote from the garage to weld plates in both back corners for £80 so going to let them do a proper job on Thursday.


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## SurGie (Aug 6, 2010)

Thinking about it a bit more, if a repair panel was glued up and had to be repaired again at a later date for what ever reason, then they could be setting themselves up for a lot of hard work trying to get the panel off. Spot welded panels are far easier to get off than glued riveted ones. 

Good on you for getting a good quote an getting a proper job done.


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## Andyb0127 (Jan 16, 2011)

SurGie said:


> Thinking about it a bit more, if a repair panel was glued up and had to be repaired again at a later date for what ever reason, then they could be setting themselves up for a lot of hard work trying to get the panel off. Spot welded panels are far easier to get off than glued riveted ones.
> 
> Good on you for getting a good quote an getting a proper job done.


Doesn't take any longer to remove a bonded and riveted panel, than it does to remove a spot welded panel. It's about having the right tools to do it, and how do i know because I've done it. An so have the other panel beaters where I worked the didn't struggle either.


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## craigeh123 (Dec 26, 2011)

Times change , partly why i decided i wanted to get off the spanners stuffs moving forward at a crazy rate and a lot of in dependants wont keep up . Even when i worked in a dealer cars were released before the backup was really there


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## Andyb0127 (Jan 16, 2011)

craigeh123 said:


> Times change , partly why i decided i wanted to get off the spanners stuffs moving forward at a crazy rate and a lot of in dependants wont keep up . Even when i worked in a dealer cars were released before the backup was really there


Your not wrong there Craig.
If you want to keep up now you need all the approvals, which alot of smaller bodyshops can't as its the initial outlay for all the tools, products, training, that goes with it which is not cheap, hate to think how much it cost when we git the Mercedes and bmw approvals.


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## SurGie (Aug 6, 2010)

So its easy to take off then, shows how well it bonds then hense less strength.


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## Andyb0127 (Jan 16, 2011)

SurGie said:


> So its easy to take off then, shows how well it bonds then hense less strength.


Where did I say easy then, if you read it properly it actually said doesn't take any longer if you have the right TOOLS. If you don't then it will take longer. 
In your own admition all you have done is think about it, making assumptions that it doesn't work and is weak. So there for is basically in your eyes floored and will fail. 
The only thing that has failed so far is the attempt you've made at showing how little knowledge and experience you have in the matter. Considering Mercedes have been using bonding and riveting for quite a while and that's from the factory, so I'm sure it has been through rigourus tests, crash tests, and so on uther wise if it failed the tests they wouldn't be using it. And as I said other motor company's are following suit. 
When you have the relative imformation and understanding of the products your answers may hold some sort of substance. Until then your words don't mean alot, said all I need to say on the matter. :lol::lol:


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## moosh (May 8, 2011)

I'm with Andy on this one :thumb:


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## Andyb0127 (Jan 16, 2011)

moosh said:


> I'm with Andy on this one :thumb:


Thanks mate.
Think the difference is you've been in the trade and understand it more. :thumb:


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## SurGie (Aug 6, 2010)

Its ok for road cars, not race track cars etc which is where I come from. I used to be in the trade. No way does unpeeling glue as well as rivit removal takes the same time as a few spot welds wtf. You have two parts to remove and seperate. The rivits are like spot welds, spot welded panels dont have glue that needs to be removed.

Its used as a low cost measure, you can argu all you like about how great it is and when its used in race rally cars i agreee its great stuff. Its only great for the trade in saving costs and time, not longevity compared to old school welding. As said this stuff means we loose more tradesmen skills, its ok mate its a lego car just glue it together its fine as BMW use it, have you seen the amount of new BMW cars with orange peel. Not to mention BMW reliability issues

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-news/consumer-news/62383/german-cars-among-worst-engine-failures

Let alone all those BMW dodgy alloys, nothing is as tried and tested until its been around as long as welding has.


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## craigeh123 (Dec 26, 2011)

In my eyes its just times changing no different to any other thing . Look at tvs 10 years ago they were huge now you can get ones that are crazy thin , just technology moving forward . .

One thing i will agree with though is nothing is as well made as it used to be , everythings become throw away


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## squiggs (Oct 19, 2009)

craigeh123 said:


> One thing i will agree with though is nothing is as well made as it used to be , everythings become throw away


Ain't that the truth ...... My Gran (God bless her soul) once asked me if there were any umbrella repairers left in town.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
But my laughter offended her! 
Apparently 'in the good old days' you did get places that did umbrella repairs! Who would have thought 

Anyway I digress - that's a bit off topic.

Within our 100 year history of manned flight we managed to move from gluing material to wooden struts to form wings to gluing heat resistant ceramic tiles to space shuttles. 
Admittedly they did use a different glue - things had moved on!
In comparison - gluing a panel onto a car rather than welding it in the same way as Mr Henry Ford would recognise seems a relatively short step forward.


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## Aaran (Sep 18, 2007)

most of my tools are old. new stuff is phiss in comparison, cheap tat made in the far east using cheap materials.

go get a set of hammers and dollies from the 40's or 50's and see how much better they feel and are compared to todays crap. same with tin sinps, when jaws and blades were made to last.

honda rear arches are boht spot welded and glued on btw (inner frame support to inner rear arch they put some god awfull hard black glue on it and its a fecker to separate) they also dump it on the rear of the floor pans where the floor meets the rear tank well (its 3 layers of metal and the inner is sandwiched between 2 1mm thick layers of this black glue)


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## Brungle (Dec 6, 2009)

picked the van up yesterday, job done, can't see it rusting again .


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