# Drive awareness course/ speed awareness



## WashMitt (May 27, 2010)

So, I had one of these the other day and iv got to say I was surprised by a few things if I'm honest, 

Firstly I'll tell you about my conviction to make things clear, I was doing 37 in a 30 locally to me (Nottingham) I drive around 25k a year and this is the first conviction iv had in 10yrs 

I did my course in Derby at the Derby conference centre, which was the first surprise as it was a very nice venue with parking and all the usual conference centre luxuries. 

The course was held by the AA and a gentleman who worked for them called Alan, now he was a bit of a brash bloke from up north but a nice enough guy and he didn't seem to want to be little anyone or shout the odds. 

A few other things that surprised me, firstly I was the youngest on the course by a long way (29) in fact I'd have said the average age would have been 45-50. 

Also the lack of knowledge from the rest of the group was surprising, we had many multiple choice questions regarding speed limits and types of roads and the majority was always wrong!! 

A couple things I picked up though, some will already know this some wont. 

- 1mph over the speed limit is classed as speeding and you can be done for this, there is no blanket policy of 3mph over or ten percent allowance but some local forces do impose their own allowances. 
- Gatsos are put in areas that have had 3 or more serious accidents within 200yrds of the camera. 

Generally it was a decent course and I don't think it would harm young drivers to have to do something like this within a year of passing their test

Anyone else had any experiences?


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## Natalie (Jan 19, 2011)

I've not done one myself personally but a few people I know have said similar to you that it's something that probably should be done as part of passing your driving test? I remember Chris Evans talking about it on his breakfast show the other week.

I suppose it's a cost thing?


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## VW STEVE. (Mar 18, 2012)

My son did one at 18 (he got pulled doing 33 in a 30!!!!!).He was the youngest on his course also.


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## Natalie (Jan 19, 2011)

VW STEVE. said:


> My son did one at 18 (he got pulled doing 33 in a 30!!!!!).He was the youngest on his course also.


Ouch so the 10% + 2 is a bit of a myth then?


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## Bero (Mar 9, 2008)

WashMitt said:


> - 1mph over the speed limit is classed as speeding and you can be done for this, there is no blanket policy of 3mph over or ten percent allowance but some local forces do impose their own allowances.
> - Gatsos are put in areas that have had 3 or more serious accidents within 200yrds of the camera.


Yes/no - show me a single person who has been prosecuted for 1mph over the limit so it's de facto legal. Just like it's illegal to be drunk or serve someone who's drunk in a pub.

Interesting fact on gatsos - I'm sure this is the criteria for new ones, but definitely not the case for ones that were erected many years ago. I agree with most new ones to be honest and wish for more in places, particularly dangerous dual carriageway junctions where a lot of traffic, speeds should be 50mph and enforced with a camera.....a camera painted yellow and has great big flashing neon signs to deter rather than catch.


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## WashMitt (May 27, 2010)

Natalie said:


> Ouch so the 10% + 2 is a bit of a myth then?


Yep that's what they said, it's all down to the local police force or the actual police officer (if caught by a marked/unmarked vehicle)

They explained why, they showed a police driver going through cones at 30 then at 32 and slamming on his brakes, it demonstrated that at 32 you will hit a pedestrian at 11mph more than 30 and the body will react differanlty ect ect

It was interesting, one technique he gave to stop someone drifting over 30 unintentionally was when in a 30 zone to stick to 3rd gear, it makes it easier to judge your speed without watching the speedo all the time, and he dispelled the myths of extra fuel saying it would only add a cup or so a week to your fuel bill, I don't know how much truth is in that but it seemed to make sense.


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## WashMitt (May 27, 2010)

Bero said:


> Yes/no - show me a single person who has been prosecuted for 1mph over the limit so it's de facto legal. Just like it's illegal to be drunk or serve someone who's drunk in a pub.
> 
> Interesting fact on gatsos - I'm sure this is the criteria for new ones, but definitely not the case for ones that were erected many years ago. I agree with most new ones to be honest and wish for more in places, particularly dangerous dual carriageway junctions where a lot of traffic, speeds should be 50mph and enforced with a camera.....a camera painted yellow and has great big flashing neon signs to deter rather than catch.


Agreed, it's rare although he said he's had people on his course that have claim to only being 1mph over the limit but iv never know anyone myself who actually has.

Apparently this is the new siting policy since 2000 I think he said. I brought up the fact that you don't see cameras outside schools (if its all about protecting the public) he said you do if there's been accidents there yet I have never seen a camera outside a school. He then said if local councils were to put them up outside schools then the general public would go mad but I can't see that being the case tbh


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## lowejackson (Feb 23, 2006)

I spent a few years working with an ex-Fireman, he had more than enough horror stories to make sure I keep within the speedlimits


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## xJay1337 (Jul 20, 2012)

WashMitt said:


> A few other things that surprised me, firstly I was the youngest on the course by a long way (29) in fact I'd have said the average age would have been 45-50.
> ................... I don't think it would harm young drivers to have to do something like this within a year of passing their test


So you recommend the course to young drivers when there aren't actually any young drivers on it?


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## WashMitt (May 27, 2010)

xJay1337 said:


> So you recommend the course to young drivers when there aren't actually any young drivers on it?


I think it would be good for you drivers to have extra education in this way, my point about the age of the participants was that it seems that the pre conceived ideas that its all young tear aways speeding up and down the roads are incorrect.

However I would still rather my own son do something like this when he's passed his test due to the information it gives you.


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

It seems to be the case that the police officer who stops you has the decision to make if you get points or get to attend the course. 

Maybe explains why older drivers get sent for a refresher and young ones get a harsher lesson.


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## VW STEVE. (Mar 18, 2012)

Natalie said:


> Ouch so the 10% + 2 is a bit of a myth then?


...........he thinks it must have been an un-marked car & he didn't get pulled over at the time & didn't remember seeing any ''marked'' cars & no speed cameras etc. First info he got was when the paper work landed on the mat.


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## WashMitt (May 27, 2010)

Kerr said:


> It seems to be the case that the police officer who stops you has the decision to make if you get points or get to attend the course.
> 
> Maybe explains why older drivers get sent for a refresher and young ones get a harsher lesson.


No it doesn't work like that, on receiving a penalty for speeding you will get a letter through the post and it will detail 3 options,

1 - fixed penalty 3 points £60 fine
2 - go to court and appeal it 
3 - speed awareness course.

However you will only get the third option if your speed is a set amount over the given limit, you haven't already attended a speed awareness course in the past 3 years and your local constabulary offers these kinds of courses. Not all do.

It cost £92 all in which (as they took pleasure in pointing out) is value for money considering you'd pay £60 anyway and 3 points over five years can easily add over £1000 to you insurance premium.


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## xJay1337 (Jul 20, 2012)

WashMitt said:


> It cost £92 all in which (as they took pleasure in pointing out) is value for money considering you'd pay £60 anyway and *3 points over five years can easily add over £1000 to you insurance premium*.


Does it really?
Most insurers won't up your premium for one offence EG an SP30. For me if I were to get 3 points my insurance would rise by £60. I'm 21.
For the average age of 50 in the course I would be surprised if their insurance went up £200 a month assuming they pay around £300 anyway on their Ford Focus's.


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

I've had 3 points twice in 15 years driving. 

Neither made any difference to my premium. Both insurance companies were ok to overlook the first 3.


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## WashMitt (May 27, 2010)

xJay1337 said:


> Does it really?
> Most insurers won't up your premium for one offence EG an SP30. For me if I were to get 3 points my insurance would rise by £60. I'm 21.
> For the average age of 50 in the course I would be surprised if their insurance went up £200 a month assuming they pay around £300 anyway on their Ford Focus's.


I tried my insurance on comparethemarket.com (other sites are available) and if I added 3 points for speeding it added £168 to the cheapest quote :thumb:


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## xJay1337 (Jul 20, 2012)

WashMitt said:


> I think it would be good for you drivers to have extra education in this way, my point about the age of the participants was that it seems that the pre conceived ideas that its all young tear aways speeding up and down the roads are incorrect.
> .


I see, well fair enough in that case.
Some may find it insightful but personally I would find it patronising. I speed but when safe to do so, I will happily do over 100mph but this is at 2am on a straight piece of dual carriageway. Doing it on the B3282 just outside Burton-on-Trent in Rush hour is a bit dippy and probably where the problem comes from. There are some bloody brilliant young drivers just like there are some absolutely terrible ones, and likewise for those who have grey hair and wrinkly foreheads. :lol::lol:

Sitting in a smelly rentacabin listening to some bloke rattle on about speed cameras is not my idea of fun! 
Bring on the next trackday.


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## R7KY D (Feb 16, 2010)

I've had 6 points on my licence for the last 5 years , All gone now as of last November , I never noticed any real hike in my premiums otherwise I wouldn't have bought the cars I have , I'm also named driver on 3 other policies with 2 of them being very high powered cars and with points declared it doesn't really make much difference , I suppose if your younger then they tear the ar*e out of you


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## WashMitt (May 27, 2010)

xJay1337 said:


> I see, well fair enough in that case.
> Some may find it insightful but personally I would find it patronising. I speed but when safe to do so, I will happily do over 100mph but this is at 2am on a straight piece of dual carriageway. Doing it on the B3282 just outside Burton-on-Trent in Rush hour is a bit dippy and probably where the problem comes from. There are some bloody brilliant young drivers just like there are some absolutely terrible ones, and likewise for those who have grey hair and wrinkly foreheads. :lol::lol:
> 
> Sitting in a smelly rentacabin listening to some bloke rattle on about speed cameras is not my idea of fun!
> Bring on the next trackday.


I thought it would be that but I was in a really nice country hall style conference room, PowerPoint presentation the lot!!

It's true there are a lot of good young drivers out there, but iv got a 9 year old and before I know it he'll want to be taking his test and driving all over and knowing what I was like I'm going to worry

That said this wouldn't have made any difference to me when I was 17


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## Bero (Mar 9, 2008)

WashMitt said:


> Agreed, it's rare although he said he's had people on his course that have claim to only being 1mph over the limit but iv never know anyone myself who actually has.
> 
> Ardently this is the new siting policy since 2000 I think he said. I brought up the fact that you don't see cameras outside schools (if its all about protecting the public) he said you do if there's been accidents there yet I have never seen a camera outside a school. He then said if local councils were to put them up outside schools then the general public would go mad but I can't see that being the case tbh


I believe it would be simple to get off with, I guess going on a course is the risk free and cheap option. I just can't see the procurator fiscal (or English equivalent) deciding it's in the public interest to pursue the case, the tolerance of measurement can be out by 1mph. I know the sentencing guidelines do include points and fines for 31mph in a 30....and 71 in a 70. There are a few stories of 'my mums friend....' on the internet but noting I can find of anyone being prosecuted in court.


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

WashMitt said:


> I tried my insurance on comparethemarket.com (other sites are available) and if I added 3 points for speeding it added £168 to the cheapest quote :thumb:


That's mental.

You are about ages with me are you not? Im 33.

My insurance is only £380 on a BMW 335i with 3 points.

You extra expense for 3 points is almost 45% of my total premium.

What do you pay without points?


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

There was actually a bit on the news recently about these courses.

You still have to advise your insurance company you were on one of these courses. They still treat it as an offence as you were caught speeding all the same.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-20328860


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## Scotty Pro (Nov 12, 2008)

xJay1337 said:


> I see, well fair enough in that case.
> Some may find it insightful but personally I would find it patronising. I speed but when safe to do so, *I will happily do over 100mph* but this is at 2am on a straight piece of dual carriageway. Doing it on the B3282 just outside Burton-on-Trent in Rush hour is a bit dippy and probably where the problem comes from. There are some bloody brilliant young drivers just like there are some absolutely terrible ones, and likewise for those who have grey hair and wrinkly foreheads. :lol::lol:
> 
> Sitting in a smelly rentacabin listening to some bloke rattle on about speed cameras is not my idea of fun!
> Bring on the next trackday.


you won't get a speed awareness course if you get caught at that speed :lol:

I went on the course and the smelly portakabin was a nice plush office with refreshments. I also got my eyes opened as regards to safety on the roads :thumb:


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## WashMitt (May 27, 2010)

Kerr said:


> That's mental.
> 
> You are about ages with me are you not? Im 33.
> 
> ...


I'm 29 so not far off, I'm paying about £500 or there abouts but its a policy I use for all my work vehicles and I'm just added to it.


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## WashMitt (May 27, 2010)

Kerr said:


> There was actually a bit on the news recently about these courses.
> 
> You still have to advise your insurance company you were on one of these courses. They still treat it as an offence as you were caught speeding all the same.
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-20328860


He mentioned that but he said there was only two companies that he knew of that took it into account one was Admiral, but there are plenty that don't so you could just choose one of them.


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## xJay1337 (Jul 20, 2012)

WashMitt said:


> I thought it would be that but I was in a really nice country hall style conference room, PowerPoint presentation the lot!!
> 
> It's true there are a lot of good young drivers out there, but iv got a 9 year old and before I know it he'll want to be taking his test and driving all over and knowing what I was like I'm going to worry
> 
> That said this wouldn't have made any difference to me when I was 17


Guess they've gone up in the world! All the tax-payers money being put to good use eh?!
I think the 10%+2 is CPS guidelines for prosecution, you could realistically claim that your speedo if normal dials (not digital like on a Honda Civic or something) the needle does not differentiate between 30 and 31mph. The reason for the CPS guideline is because of speed inaccuracies and a certain amount of "slack".

There are a few stories floating around but I've not found any _*proof *_(IE someone's taken a picture of their NIP) for doing 1mph over the limit and receiving 60 quid fine and 3 points.


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## WashMitt (May 27, 2010)

xJay1337 said:


> Guess they've gone up in the world! All the tax-payers money being put to good use eh?!
> I think the 10%+2 is CPS guidelines for prosecution, you could realistically claim that your speedo if normal dials (not digital like on a Honda Civic or something) the needle does not differentiate between 30 and 31mph. The reason for the CPS guideline is because of speed inaccuracies and a certain amount of "slack".
> 
> There are a few stories floating around but I've not found any _*proof *_(IE someone's taken a picture of their NIP) for doing 1mph over the limit and receiving 60 quid fine and 3 points.


The guy on the course said speed dials are made to be under by 3mph so I doubt that would work. Iv heard this before but I'm not sure how true it is. I know the digi display on my car is away from the sat nav by about 2mph


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## Guest (Feb 6, 2013)

WashMitt said:


> They explained why, they showed a police driver going through cones at 30 then at 32 and slamming on his brakes, it demonstrated that at 32 you will hit a pedestrian at 11mph more than 30


On the one hand, it's a little disappointing to hear that they have taken this stance. It's actually going to cheapen the message they are trying to convey imho.
There is no way that braking from 30mph vs 32mph is going to result in an 11mph difference at any point along the deceleration curve. Most people are going to realise this and feel that they are trying to pull the wool over their eyes.

On the other hand, the whole point of speed limits is to give a driver more time to spot and react to hazards and to decrease stopping distances. This is a good thing and why they should be seen as upper limits to speed, not targets to achieve.

Did they do much in the way of hazard perception?


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## Bero (Mar 9, 2008)

WashMitt said:


> The guy on the course said speed dials are made to be under by 3mph so I doubt that would work. Iv heard this before but I'm not sure how true it is. I know the digi display on my car is away from the sat nav by about 2mph


He's just generalising/speaking rubbish, not all cars read 3mph under, 99%+ of cars don't have any sort of calibrated speedo. If your new BMW comes with different sized wheels as an option (hence different rolling circumference) do you think they recalibrate the speedo. What about new tyres with 8mm tread v old with 1.6mm tread? What if you're tyres are 30psi rather than 34psi? Can you reliably read each mph increment on your speedo.

If all of these variables are working against you or with you there could be a significant difference.


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## xJay1337 (Jul 20, 2012)

BareFacedGeek said:


> On the one hand, it's a little disappointing to hear that they have taken this stance. It's actually going to cheapen the message they are trying to convey imho.
> There is no way that braking from 30mph vs 32mph is going to result in an 11mph difference at any point along the deceleration curve. Most people are going to realise this and feel that they are trying to pull the wool over their eyes.


Glad someone else can see BS.


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## Guest (Feb 6, 2013)

xJay1337 said:


> I speed but when safe to do so, I will happily do over 100mph but this is at 2am on a straight piece of dual carriageway.


Is this irony? 5am would be better :thumb: 

Joking aside, for 100mph to be truly safe you need to ensure that the distance you can see at 2am is further than it takes you to come to a complete stop from 100mph. This will be over twice the distance needed at 70mph.


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## xJay1337 (Jul 20, 2012)

Bero said:


> He's just generalising/speaking rubbish, not all cars read 3mph under, 99%+ of cars don't have any sort of calibrated speedo. If your new BMW comes with different sized wheels as an option (hence different rolling circumference) do you think they recalibrate the speedo. What about new tyres with 8mm tread v old with 1.6mm tread? What if you're tyres are 30psi rather than 34psi? Can you reliably read each mph increment on your speedo.


The tyre tread affecting aside, you'll probably find most cars have the same rolling diameter of wheel.

EG My golf originally came with 195/65/15 alloys and tyres. They also came with 17 or 18 inch alloys. I put some 17" on there with the correct tyre size which is 225/45/17. Exactly the same ROLLING diameter thus speedo is not affected.


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## xJay1337 (Jul 20, 2012)

BareFacedGeek said:


> Is this irony? 5am would be better :thumb:
> 
> Joking aside, for 100mph to be truly safe you need to ensure that the distance you can see at 2am is further than it takes you to come to a complete stop from 100mph. This will be over twice the distance needed at 70mph.


My lights could guide a 747 in to land, haha. :driver::car::car::car:
But yes never go faster than for what you can see to react to.


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## WashMitt (May 27, 2010)

BareFacedGeek said:


> On the one hand, it's a little disappointing to hear that they have taken this stance. It's actually going to cheapen the message they are trying to convey imho.
> There is no way that braking from 30mph vs 32mph is going to result in an 11mph difference at any point along the deceleration curve. Most people are going to realise this and feel that they are trying to pull the wool over their eyes.
> 
> On the other hand, the whole point of speed limits is to give a driver more time to spot and react to hazards and to decrease stopping distances. This is a good thing and why they should be seen as upper limits to speed, not targets to achieve.
> ...


They video showing the difference and explained it using the deceleration curve, it seemed pretty legit.

There was a small portion dedicated to hazard awareness, it involved a drive through video.


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## uruk hai (Apr 5, 2009)

xJay1337 said:


> Guess they've gone up in the world! All the tax-payers money being put to good use eh?!
> I think the 10%+2 is CPS guidelines for prosecution, you could realistically claim that your speedo if normal dials (not digital like on a Honda Civic or something) the needle does not differentiate between 30 and 31mph. The reason for the CPS guideline is because of speed inaccuracies and a certain amount of ".


Can you provide proof regarding the CPS using a 10% +2 guideline as I have never heard of this ? I've spoken to many Police officers who choose to operate a "disgresionary" system along exactly the same lines but I have never heard of the CPS doing this. The only information the CPS has regarding speed is what will be passed to them in the event that the matter goes further than a fixed penalty notice issued by what ever method ?


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## S63 (Jan 5, 2007)

:lol:


uruk hai said:


> Can you provide proof regarding the CPS using a 10% +2 guideline as I have never heard of this ? I've spoken to many Police officers who choose to operate a "disgresionary" system along exactly the same lines but I have never heard of the CPS doing this. The only information the CPS has regarding speed is what will be passed to them in the event that the matter goes further than a fixed penalty notice issued by what ever method ?


Laws on speeding are clear cut and in black and white.

The interpretation of speeding laws is the stuff of myth and legend.


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## xJay1337 (Jul 20, 2012)

uruk hai said:


> Can you provide proof regarding the CPS using a 10% +2 guideline as I have never heard of this ? I've spoken to many Police officers who choose to operate a "disgresionary" system along exactly the same lines but I have never heard of the CPS doing this. The only information the CPS has regarding speed is what will be passed to them in the event that the matter goes further than a fixed penalty notice issued by what ever method ?


Bit of Googling never hurt you bud.

http://www.speedlimit.org.uk/faq.html

Also topics on BBC news and peppipoo a-plenty.


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## uruk hai (Apr 5, 2009)

S63 said:


> :lol:
> 
> Laws on speeding are clear cut and in black and white.


I know 



S63 said:


> The interpretation of speeding laws is the stuff of myth and legend.


I appreciate that my be your experience but please believe me when I say the Police (in this area at least !) do operate a disgresionary system when it suites them. However I believe the CPS do not but I thought I would ask for proof of the suggestion as oppose to simply dismissing it.


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## uruk hai (Apr 5, 2009)

xJay1337 said:


> Bit of Googling never hurt you bud.
> 
> http://www.speedlimit.org.uk/faq.html
> 
> Also topics on BBC news and peppipoo a-plenty.


Fixed penalty notices are not issued by the CPS, the only information they have is that which is placed before them should the matter make it far enough.

The link you posted (even though it doesn't seem to work ?) claims it is relating to ACPO guidelines, can you provide proof regarding your claim about the CPS ?


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## xJay1337 (Jul 20, 2012)

Like I said mate no offence but 2 minutes of Googling gets you your answer.

FPN are indeed not issued bu the CPS they are issued by the police man... because you only get to the CPS if you are given a summons - and in accordance with guidelines. CPS guidelines outline in conjunction with the ACPO and their local constabulary for for summons speed and endorsement speed.

Googled "CPS guidelines speeding" and first link - http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/p_to_r/road_traffic_offences_guidance_on_fixed_penalty_notices/#speed



> The Association of Chief Police Officers (ACPO) has issued speed enforcement policy guidance, which suggests that enforcement will normally occur when a driver exceeds the speed limit by a particular margin. This is normally 10 per cent over the speed limit plus 2 mph. It also sets guidelines for when it would not be appropriate to issue a fixed penalty notice but to issue a summons instead (see below). Note that these are guidelines and that a police officer has discretion to act outside of them providing he acts fairly, consistently and proportionately.
> 
> Speed limit: 20 mph
> ACPO charging threshold: 24 mph
> ...


Basically it's saying what I said - unless you are doing the ACPO charging threshold you are very unlikely to get a ticket - and like I said I've never seen any proof of anyone getting 3 points and £60 for doing 31 or 41 or 51 or 61 or 71. People have gone "oh my Nan had it!" but I've never seen a genuine FPN with the speed listed as 31.

The above speeds are also widely regarded to be what speed Cameras are set at. 
All the proof you need
cheers
Jay


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## Darlofan (Nov 24, 2010)

Is possibly the reason you were the youngest because most younger drivers will be far in excess of the speed limit therefore above threshold for choice of a course?
I don't think it's because only older drivers speed.
What I've found with these courses is from friends etc that they are really educated and excited about them for about a week then forget all about it and go back to driving like they used to. Saying that I'd take a course if offered.


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## uruk hai (Apr 5, 2009)

xJay1337 said:


> Like I said mate no offence but 2 minutes of Googling gets you your answer.
> 
> FPN are indeed not issued bu the CPS they are issued by the police man... because you only get to the CPS if you are given a summons - and in accordance with guidelines. CPS guidelines outline in conjunction with the ACPO and their local constabulary for for summons speed and endorsement speed.
> 
> ...


No offence taken or meant mate 

In the link you posted are the ACPO "guidelines" and not as you earlier stated CPS guidelines, that was the only point I was questioning. As you can see from my previous post I'm aware of the disgresionary guidelines already used by the Police. 



Darlofan said:


> Is possibly the reason you were the youngest because most younger drivers will be far in excess of the speed limit therefore above threshold for choice of a course.


When my brother did his first course he was caught at 39 in a 30 and was told that he was lucky as anything over 39 means you will just get a fixed penalty notice !


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## carfix (May 28, 2010)

I did the course a few years ago after going thru a mobile camera at 36 in a 30. If it had been 35 I would have got off, 36 to 39 would be offered the course and after that, no choice, its just points and a fine. I was upset as they hid behind a large poster at the bottom of a hill firing 100 yds up the hill in a way that meant you couldnt see them till you'd out of the tree cover, by which time it was too late. If you look at this: www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11...trap-operators-caught-camera-hiding-sign.html you will find an article where they did the same trick the next month and as I was unhappy at their sneakiness I got a piccy which I gave to my local free sheet paper and it made the front page ( slow news day) This started a few weeks of the van being caught by other readers in dangerous and inappropriate situations, and each time they printed my photo and details as well as a preamble. Soon in my community I was being paraded as a champion of justice ( I only sent them a pic and did a 2 min interview) Then the Daily Mail rang and it went nationwide. The Papers approached the authorities and all the convictions for that day were quashed, but mine the month before wasn't, even thou the circumstances were the same. Ah well. I was a minor celebrity for a while especially as when i actually went on the course later that month the instructors gave me the " YOU'RE Harry Potter" speech. I was looked on in admiration by the audience. Everyone gets 15 mins, and i've had mine now, i'll die happy. Ho Ho !
The course that i did was run by Two full time Civil Servants that seemed battle weary at defending the policies, and as you would imagine, got their backs up straight away when one of the atendees mentioned cash generating etc. It had mostly middle aged well spoken people on,( car park full of Rover 75's, no Scoobies ) not what you'd expect, but showed that its a crime that is committed by most normally law abiding people, rather than the reckless youths we think of as anti social drivers. It was over 5 hours involving a safety talk with multiple choice quiz that we should have known but struggled with, stopping distances, road signs etc, that knocked our confidence in our abilities , then softened us up with some hazard awareness video's and question and answer sessions. After a break we were split into two's and did two sessions with a driving instructor in their car which was more lighthearted, and was really useful. He analysed our driving and over a cup of tea gave feedback on our awareness, then took us out and called the road as he drove the same route, showing us where possible dangers were , and then we did another stint where we had to call the road and put into practice what we'd learned. Plenty of info and advice on how to know what speed limit was without seeing the signs or repeaters,Then we had another cup of tea and a chat, all very friendly , and I did learn from it. In fact I would have paid the £60 Course fee just for this which helped this long term driver brush up a bit on stuff i'd forgotten or just didn't know in the first place.

My wife took the same course last year but didnt get the driving experience, just the bollocking session in the classroom which was a shame as we were mostly anti at that point and it seemed like a punishment, whereas the driving session actually helped me be a better driver. Ho Hum !
Best wishes Rob.


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

carfix said:


> I did the course a few years ago after going thru a mobile camera at 36 in a 30. If it had been 35 I would have got off, 36 to 39 would be offered the course and after that, no choice, its just points and a fine. I was upset as they hid behind a large poster at the bottom of a hill firing 100 yds up the hill in a way that meant you couldnt see them till you'd out of the tree cover, by which time it was too late. If you look at this: www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11...trap-operators-caught-camera-hiding-sign.html you will find an article where they did the same trick the next month and as I was unhappy at their sneakiness .


I always love these quotes.

People always say the camera was hidden as if it justifies the fact they were speeding.

Why should it really matter if the camera is hidden or not? You were speeding and you were caught. Very simple.


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

Also looking at the picture, they have taken the picture from behind the sign on the grass. 

If you were driving on the road you should have clear visibility of that bright van.


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## carfix (May 28, 2010)

Sorry Kerr i'm struggling with the logic of being able to spot from 100 mtrs away the bright van deliberately parked behind that big sign on the grass that blocks it out. I'll explain a bit further :

Wasn't trying to justify speeding per say . Just annoyed that the Road safety partnership deliberately ignored the rules that they are supposed to follow which seem irresponsible to me when they are judging my responsibility. 

Anyone who does 21 in a 20 limit is just as guilty in law as someone who does 80 in a 20. To separate their crimes we have to know more about the circumstances.
As you were unaware of my particular circumstances, I find it helps to know more details before pontificating.

The road declines 20 degrees down to where the camera was, there is a canopy of trees that gives a good view of the road ahead but hides the camera, there is no footpath either side so no pedestrians and vehicles have good sight lines for traffic but have to keep touching the brakes to keep to 30. as they get to the bottom of the hill the tree cover retracts but you have no time to react to a camera that's 100 mtrs away. As you can see the camera van was behind a large sign so all you could see was a thin slit of opened rear tailgate and about 40cms underneath it that was just a dark strip. The road used to be a 60 limit but has been reduced to 30 because there is a school crossing at the bottom of the hill. The school was closed for Easter holidays whilst their speed trap was operating. Clever place to put a camera if you want to make money but no use at all if you want to save lives or people to respect getting caught. If they used this level of judgement in other areas, the public respect and confidence would soon evaporate. 
The Law must be fair and reasonable to be acceptable to the masses. This application was neither as the Authority agreed when it quashed the convictions as unsafe. In the weeks that followed there were more pics of the van parked on footpaths blocking the pedestrians paths so prams had to be pushed into the road to get round, and on wider shopping pavement where traders had been fined for having sandwich boards outside their shops as it was a trip hazard for the blind, but the van was perfectly within its rights to be blocking the path. 
None of this absolves me from speeding, but if "the man" thinks he's above the law , its only a matter of time before unrest follows. This instance of upholding the law did more to alienate the many people caught who are normally regarded as responsible members of society, than it did to move forward road safety. That cannot be right for the sake of a strong society.
Best wishes Rob at Carfix.

P.S. I believe seat belts should be removed for the seat behind the steering wheel, and that the air bag be decomissioned and a 20cm spike be placed on the steering wheel. Within a couple of years natural attrition would solve any problems we have on the roads. Cant get a taker for it thou !


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