# Smart repair or bodyshop?



## markie

Hi guys,i have a bit of damage on my rear bumper that i want to get sorted,thing is do i go to a bodyshop or use a smart repair co?I have heard good things about our local revive franchise.
I want a top job and knowing how hard it is to match silve i am a bit worried.









This is the damage


----------



## steveo3002

bodyshop if you want it done right


----------



## cossierick

Bodyshop


----------



## Jem

A *good* smart repairer could do a brilliant job on that.


----------



## steveo3002

think about it , a bodyshop will be dry with a heated dust free spray booth , the smart repairer will work under an umbrella in winter


----------



## sirkuk

With it being low down on the bumper I'd out weigh the costs if I knew the smart repairer was good. If it was a body panel, body shop without a shadow of a doubt.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk


----------



## robdcfc

As I do both forms of repair I would suggest a decent SMART repair for that job.

Why do all you guys have such a low view of SMART repair anyway?

Rob


----------



## DOBE

If the bumper was removed to do the job i wouldn't see a problem with a smart repair.


----------



## cossierick

robdcfc said:


> As I do both forms of repair I would suggest a decent SMART repair for that job.
> 
> Why do all you guys have such a low view of SMART repair anyway?
> 
> Rob


No offence but i havent seen a good smart repair yet.

Dont get me wrong , a good smart repairer could be better than a crap bodyshop.

Ironicly, as i type this, i supose i havent seen a good smart repair as if it was a good job then i supose they wouldnt be coming to us for it rectifying. lol

Rick


----------



## Jem

cossierick said:


> No offence but i havent seen a good smart repair yet.
> 
> Dont get me wrong , a good smart repairer could be better than a crap bodyshop.
> 
> Ironicly, as i type this, i supose i havent seen a good smart repair as if it was a good job then i supose they wouldnt be coming to us for it rectifying. lol
> 
> Rick


A good smart repair you should only be able to detect with a paint thickness gauge.


----------



## Hoovie

That kind of scuff repair is bread and butter to a SMART Repairer.
In terms of colour matching, Revive! have a very comprehensive training program and use the Sikkens Autowave paint scheme which is very good, so I would expect the repair would be virtually undetectable and a hell of a lot cheaper then a bodyshop, not least as there is no reason why the bumper needs to be removed.


----------



## markie

Thanks for your input chaps,i will get a quote from a bodyshop to see what the difference is,revive are quoting £160


----------



## Hoovie

markie said:


> Thanks for your input chaps,i will get a quote from a bodyshop to see what the difference is,revive are quoting £160


Inc VAT? Have they seen the work first hand or from just from photo? (or description ?)
Be interested to hear the difference! (I'm doing a bumper scuff on Monday which looks fairly similar  (this is for trade so price is a fair bit lower) )


----------



## markie

The revive guy just rang me and has firmly quoted me £150+vat.
He seems like a nice guy and was confident he could match the silver,he also told me the work has a lifetime quarantee.


----------



## nighthawk

Jem said:


> A good smart repair you should only be able to detect with a paint thickness gauge.


Until you polish through the fade out. Why if you detail your car and really look after it would you want a blow in in the middle or corner of a panel!


----------



## ianFRST

we use a fairly good bodyshop, with a very good reputation.

he would remove the bumper, paint it all, for £150. 

so for a smart repair, that seems quite steep


----------



## MartinMacleod

That should only be about the £100 mark all in smart repair. I used to do smart repair and that should be no bother but would only be invisible to the unprofessional eye as are most smart repairs.


----------



## Hoovie

I guess the choice depends on the 'fussiness' of the owner. There are some people who I would never do repairs for, as I know the quality of the work they want to see is to a standard that would not be possible to remain cost effective to achieve (and is beyond what even came out of the factory originally, let alone a repair).
The vast majority of car owners are not those who would be detailing their cars (or would even know what detailing is). They just want their car looking nice and scratch/scuff free to all intents, and it is that market which SMART Repairs are targeted at.

FWIW, I would be quoting £115+VAT for that repair to a retail client, but different regions and areas attract different prices e.g Berwick supports higher charges then Newcastle, and one of the cheapest areas seems to be London - I guess due to amount of competition?


----------



## DOBE

Hoovie said:


> not least as there is no reason why the bumper needs to be removed.


Surely the bumper would have to be removed so there is no masking between the bumper and panels and in turn would prevent lacquer peel in the future.


----------



## Hoovie

DOBE said:


> Surely the bumper would have to be removed so there is no masking between the bumper and panels and in turn would prevent lacquer peel in the future.


The whole point of SMART repairs is that it is a localised repair and not full panel respraying. Looking at the photo, the damage is at the back of the bumper and nowhere near the top of the bumper and would be faded in - and as it is low down, the side edges will be accessible anyway should the repair be close to the end of the bumper.


----------



## nighthawk

Costing for a blow in though but how do you know how many layers are there looking at the photo that will have to be taken back to the plastic otherwise it will continually sink it to the cracks so you may have to feather it out a long way. So I your asking from a information from a detailing forum surely SMART repair is Not the way forward as detailers are fussy and the fade out will come back let alone the Matt effect from all the rocket in the clearcoat to make it go off in the cold and damp!
Surely SMART repairers are on the wrong forum??


----------



## DOBE

It's still a large area that would need sanded back though, and I know silver is a nightmare to match in a bodyshop let alone when a smart repair is done.

Personally I'd want the bumper removed and the area painted and the whole bumper lacquered.


----------



## Benn

Bodyshop. Looks like it cracked the paint to me, so you'll want it down to the min amount of primer on there.

Having worked in one, i've had to re repair a few smart repair jobs.
I've seen alot of smart repairs and sadly i've never seen a good one.


----------



## pcm1980

Another thing to consider is the weather this time of year ,its often cold and damp, and in paintshop terms = MICRO BLISTERS. Also £150+vat to paint that is way too much, i know bodyshops that would carry out a local repair for half that, with the added benefit that it would be sprayed in a spraybooth.
Personally i wouldnt even consider the smart repair option, especially at that price, if it was £40-50 and i was planning on selling the car, then maybe.

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## squiggs

There are Smart Repairers and there are good Smart Repairers. For a good Smart Repairer that's an easy job that should only be detectable by using a paint thickness gauge.
Not all Smart Repairers use rocket to make the lacquer go off, quite often it'll be the same lacquer as a body shop and baked off to the same temp as an oven but with an infra red lamp, so in that respect the process is the same.
As for using fade out - bodyshops use fade out. If there was a repair on an A pillar in a lot of cases that one piece also includes the B pillar, the C pillar and even a quarter panel - but it won't all get lacquered - there would be a fade area.
As for never seeing a good smart repair - well that's the whole point, and that's what good Smart Repairers can achieve.
Good Smart Repairers can contribute to this forum and carry out repairs for the OCD - for instance - I've done work for a well respected detailing company and I'm pretty sure they wouldn't use me if the repair could be seen or couldn't be detailed after.


----------



## Hoovie

Someone said they would expect to pay about £40 to get that repaired in a bodyshop? Who on earth would be able to charge £40 and also be able to devote enough time and materials (and a contribution to their overheads) to carry out a complete repair?!
Remove bumper, repair damage, paint, clearcoat, refit bumper (presumably?) all for £40! Let me know where ... I'll subcontract my work out to them 
If bodyshops were charging that kind of rate, why do car dealers and valeting companies put work out to SMART Repairers unless they offered value for money (don't think the average car dealer is known for their charitable works  )

Plus, one of the reasons why people look into SMART Repairs is the convenience factor... Having the work done in a single day is a major plus point for many drivers.

PCM, you would be willing to pay no more then £50 for a SMART repair to that fairly lengthy bumper scuff? So £50 (max!) to pay for someone to drive to your home, setup their kit, mix the specific paint, repair and fill (if needed) the damage, prime it, paint it, lacquer it, fade in, polish, (plus the time taken to let each stage of the process dry/cure sufficiently) and then pack everything away and drive away? If you want all that for £40-50, then the quality of the end result is what you probably deserve!


----------



## pcm1980

£150+vat for a smart repair, value for money????

I think not.

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## Hoovie

pcm1980 said:


> £150+vat for a smart repair, value for money????
> 
> I think not.
> 
> Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2


We're (or rather YOU ) talking about £40-£50 being possible for a decent repair, not £150


----------



## cossierick

I think its safe to say that smart repaires are acceptable for some but not others. 

Its all about the quality of work YOU are happy with

rick


----------



## pcm1980

Im not knocking smart repairers, i've carried out lots myself, all i"m saying is that £150+vat us far too much money for a bumper corner that can be done in a couple of hours. Id also rather not have somebody spray 2k isocynate paint (lacquer) into the atmosphere on my drive way. For the £150+vat id expect it painted in a dust free, fume extracted booth.

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## robdcfc

pcm1980 said:


> Im not knocking smart repairers, i've carried out lots myself, all i"m saying is that £150+vat us far too much money for a bumper corner that can be done in a couple of hours. Id also rather not have somebody spray 2k isocynate paint (lacquer) into the atmosphere on my drive way. For the £150+vat id expect it painted in a dust free, fume extracted booth.
> 
> Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2


Can you show me a DUST FREE booth as I've never seen one myself??


----------



## nighthawk

Maybe booths aren't totally dust free but they are a temperature controlled environment for spraying hazardous paints not some wet damp windy day out on someone's drive. 
Most dealers I know use SMART as its cheap and cheerful and a "bodge" so they can sell the cars quickly. It just comes back to bite them. Then when it all falls off or comes back dull they have to pay out and get it done properly, they work on a law of averages that if they get 2 out of 10 back for rework it was cost effective not having it done properly!
To be a smart repairer is probably a good job as its money for old rope work guaranteed till the van leaves the yard. I just couldn't lower my standards to be one. 
I have to much pride in my work!


----------



## robdcfc

nighthawk said:


> Maybe booths aren't totally dust free but they are a temperature controlled environment for spraying hazardous paints not some wet damp windy day out on someone's drive.
> Most dealers I know use SMART as its cheap and cheerful and a "bodge" so they can sell the cars quickly. It just comes back to bite them. Then when it all falls off or comes back dull they have to pay out and get it done properly, they work on a law of averages that if they get 2 out of 10 back for rework it was cost effective not having it done properly!
> To be a smart repairer is probably a good job as its money for old rope work guaranteed till the van leaves the yard. I just couldn't lower my standards to be one.
> 
> I have to much pride in my work!


I am the same except my SMART repairs carry a lifetime of ownership guarantee.

As said before many bodyshop also do smart repairs although they cam them blow ins!

There are good and bad in all industries, please do not call all smart repairs cowboy or bodges as they are not, the majority of decent repairers use the same materials as bodyshops so what's the difference?

I see it from both sides as I also have a spray booth for our larger work as health and safety would have a field day if I painted a side outdoors.


----------



## nighthawk

robdcfc said:


> I see it from both sides as I also have a spray booth for our larger work as health and safety would have a field day if I painted a side outdoors.


99% of all SMART repairers I have seen do paint whole sides outside though!
So why do body shops have to pay the EPA charge to omit icocynates into the atmosphere when anyone can do it for free out the back of a van. 
I'm sorry but it makes a mockery of legislation!


----------



## Hoovie

Not many SMART Repairers use ISO clearcoat any more and have not done so for years. I know I don't, I know ChipsAway don't and I know that Revive! don't, so I think you need to get up to date with current practice 

Think it has also been established that most SMART repairers who have see this particular repair (from the photos) would not be quoting £150+VAT.


----------



## Hoovie

nighthawk said:


> 99% of all SMART repairers I have seen do paint whole sides outside though!
> So why do body shops have to pay the EPA charge to omit icocynates into the atmosphere when anyone can do it for free out the back of a van.
> I'm sorry but it makes a mockery of legislation!


Use of ISOcyanate products is not standard practice as they do not comply with HSE regulations for SMART repairs.
Painting of whole sides does not constitute a SMART Repair either, so what you are describing is people who are doing spraying outside, you are not describing SMART Repairers doing SMART Repairs :wall:


----------



## nighthawk

Funny the chips away guy uses 2k clearcoat
The guy who does all the Mercedes uses 2k clearcoat and the big southeast company uses 2k clearcoat. Odd


----------



## Hoovie

nighthawk said:


> Funny the chips away guy uses 2k clearcoat
> The guy who does all the Mercedes uses 2k clearcoat and the big southeast company uses 2k clearcoat. Odd


I use 2k clearcoat as well.

And that means it is ISO? :lol::lol:


----------



## nighthawk

Hoovie said:


> Use of ISOcyanate products is not standard practice as they do not comply with HSE regulations for SMART repairs.
> Painting of whole sides does not constitute a SMART Repair either, so what you are describing is people who are doing spraying outside, you are not describing SMART Repairers doing SMART Repairs :wall:


Clearly everyone round here shouldn't have smart repair written on there van then


----------



## nighthawk

Hoovie said:


> I use 2k clearcoat as well.
> 
> And that means it is ISO? :lol::lol:


What you use is what you use, I know for a fact what they use as my supplier supplies them with it.


----------



## Hoovie

nighthawk said:


> What you use is what you use, I know for a fact what they use as my supplier supplies them with it.


Supplies WHO with what? 
I also know what what I know about ChipsAway for a fact (if the CA guy is using the CA system as required to) , so :wave: to your facts


----------



## Andyb0127

Jeez seems to be alot of willy waving here.

Smart repair and bodyshops are a love hate relationship. Because if like us at our bodyshop we see alot oh shyte smart repairs, and the same for bodyshops seen shyte repairs. It the same both ways, as both are capable of turning out good and bad work. It's down to the experience of the person doing it, and how much pride they take in there work. It's the same with any trade Theresa good and there's bad in all of them. You also need to remember this is a detailing forum where every member has ocd and takes cleaning, and noticing any problems with paint work to the next level. 

No reason why that couldn't be a smart repair, simple if you decide on a smart repair. And your not happy with the end result. Simple dont pay them for something your not happy with. Why should you except something your not happy with.


----------



## squiggs

It's amazing that one or two numpties that feel the need to slag Smart should get so many replies. And they're arguing that only full body shop techniques will suffice when so many top body shops are training and moving towards Smart when it's appropriate for the damage.

I've done the whole ' Smart is crap' argument so many times .... yet some how some of us in the Mobile Smart industry continue in the business - satisfying even the most fussy of customers.

And yes it's tough being mobile! And completing a good job outside is tougher than working in a building - and none of us would deny that - and those of us that have friends in the bodyshop business will have been asked over and over again 'How (& why) do you do it?'.

Working outside is difficult - but it's not impossible - and the good guys enjoy the challenge for a reason :thumb:


----------



## robdcfc

Well said Glenn!


----------



## pcm1980

Like has been mentioned there are good and bad in all trades. I was just saying that the price quoted is far too much and the guy should get more quotes, both from bodyshop and more smart repairers. But getting back to the guys painting full sides of cars on driveways saying that these are not smart repairs, thats correct, but they are carried out by smart repairers with smart repair vans????? 

Sent from my GT-P5110 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## robdcfc

What reasoning do any if us have for saying that the price is too high? 

My starting price is £110+vat these days for a simple bumper corner, by the picture from the Op it looks like it could get a bit bigger as the paint has shattered and a good base needs to be found. 

I would charge £130-£150+ vat all day long for that. 

The £40 brigade that you are all talking about are the very reason you all think Smart repairs are crap.


----------



## pcm1980

Just out of interest, what are the brands of the non-iso primers and clear coats that people are using?

Sent from my GT-P5110 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## squiggs

pcm1980 said:


> Like has been mentioned there are good and bad in all trades. I was just saying that the price quoted is far too much and the guy should get more quotes, both from bodyshop and more smart repairers. But getting back to the guys painting full sides of cars on driveways saying that these are not smart repairs, thats correct, but they are carried out by smart repairers with smart repair vans?????
> 
> Sent from my GT-P5110 using Tapatalk 2


A full side from a van isn't smart ... nor is it a Smart repair.
One of the problems Smart has is ex bodyshop guys jumping on the band wagon, buying a van and bringing their bodyshop tools (read guns) outside and calling themselves Smart.
Smart isn't doing full sides outside - Smart was/is about miniaturising bodyshop techniques, using smaller and more precise guns that require a different, lighter technique from large bodyshop guns.

But the OP hasn't shown damage that requires a full side?


----------



## robdcfc

pcm1980 said:


> Just out of interest, what are the brands of the non-iso primers and clear coats that people are using?
> 
> Sent from my GT-P5110 using Tapatalk 2


Mine are special ones, with teal labels!!!


----------



## cossierick

SMART repair = cheap and chearfull, ok for the trade of if your selling the car

Bodyshop = Done correctly


----------



## robdcfc

No offence Cossierick by you are talking out your ****! 

I've repaired jobs done by so called bodyshops in the past that look like my 5year old painted it. 

Jut this week I've looked at a 4 year old car that's rusting along the bottom of both doors and up on closer inspection its obvious the sides been painted( loads of crap in the 1/4 panel ) 

Vehicle was bought at 6months old from a well known car Supermarket with their own bodyshop. 

The jobs a mess and really needs the side repainting properly at my unit. 

Yes UNIT not all Smart guys work at the side of the road as you state blowing grit into repairs.


----------



## pcm1980

robdcfc said:


> Mine are special ones, with teal labels!!!


Care to add any more info, other than its special with teal labels?? Maybe its an endless tin that never runs out and contains 25% fairy dust?

Sent from my GT-P5110 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## Hoovie

pcm1980 said:


> Care to add any more info, other than its special with teal labels?? Maybe its an endless tin that never runs out and contains 25% fairy dust?
> 
> Sent from my GT-P5110 using Tapatalk 2


Mine have white labels with blue writing :thumb:


----------



## robdcfc

Franchise branded mate, I know who makes it but can't disclose that I'm afraid!


----------



## Hoovie

robdcfc said:


> Franchise branded mate, I know who makes it but can't disclose that I'm afraid!


He knows, as he knows the supplier who supplies the company who supplies you with the Teal labelled clearcoat (apparently)
Edit - oops , that is Nighthawk who knows that!


----------



## robdcfc

Probably knows who supplies yours as well, some Russian mafia guy told him!


----------



## squiggs

cossierick said:


> SMART repair = cheap and chearfull, ok for the trade of if your selling the car
> 
> Bodyshop = Done correctly


 . :wall:

Well there's some thought provoking comments - and all well proven :lol:

Thanks for your input :thumb:


----------



## robdcfc

squiggs said:


> . :wall:
> 
> Well there's some thought provoking comments - and all well proven :lol:
> 
> Thanks for your input :thumb:


Think he's scared Glenn as I believe he's a bodyshop god!!


----------



## Aaran

i have hairy nipples.


just my 2p worth for the thread :lol:


----------



## Hoovie

Interestingly enough, the reason I joined DW back in 2008 was to get some info on how to get a resprayed door (following a keying) looking reasonable again and matching the rest of the car after we got it back from the bodyshop.


----------



## Rundie

Your average person wouldn't rate a car Supermarket bodyshop as the cream of the crop would they? 
Agreed that there are good and bad bodyshops but I've found a couple of local ones to me that turn out top notch work for a reasonable price.


----------



## squiggs

robdcfc said:


> Think he's scared Glenn as I believe he's a bodyshop god!!


Ahh ... I just noticed - he's a car painter.

When I was 5 I was a car builder - just that I made them out of Lego :lol:


----------



## robdcfc

Aaran said:


> i have hairy nipples.
> 
> just my 2p worth for the thread :lol:


Try Veet!:thumb:

Reviews here

http://www.amazon.co.uk/product-reviews/B000KKNQBK/ref=dp_top_cm_cr_acr_txt?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1


----------



## squiggs

Aaran said:


> i have hairy nipples.
> 
> just my 2p worth for the thread :lol:


Pierced?


----------



## Andyb0127

****ing hell. We still arguing about smart repairs, thought it was more about the op asking if his bumper would smart repair or not. How's he meant to decide what he wants done, if people can't put there differences aside and give him an answer.


----------



## robdcfc

Andy 

We have tried, a Smart repair by a good repairer is more than suitable for the damage in the photo.


----------



## Jem

Andyb0127 said:


> ****ing hell. We still arguing about smart repairs, thought it was more about the op asking if his bumper would smart repair or not. How's he meant to decide what he wants done, if people can't put there differences aside and give him an answer.


Well it's quite clear that the only way to ensure a good repair is to scrap the car and buy a whole new car :lol:


----------



## squiggs

The damage isn't in a high profile area - even a p1$$ poor smart repairer should be able to do a half decent job :thumb:


----------



## Andyb0127

robdcfc said:


> Andy
> 
> We have tried, a Smart repair by a good repairer is more than suitable for the damage in the photo.


Exactly what I said for this job. 
Amazes me how you mention smart and out come the doubters, with all I've ever seen is shyte smart repairs. 
I'd back what squiggs has said, I've seen his posts he knows what he talking about and doing. I'd be more than happy to recommend him to any one I know that needed him to do a repair on there car. :thumb:


----------



## robdcfc

Andyb0127 said:


> Exactly what I said for this job.
> Amazes me how you mention smart and out come the doubters, with all I've ever seen is shyte smart repairs.
> I'd back what squiggs has said, I've seen his posts he knows what he talking about and doing. I'd be more than happy to recommend him to any one I know that needed him to do a repair on there car. :thumb:


Squiggs knows me and I'm sure he will tell you I'm at least 20 times better than him.


----------



## cossierick

Show me a good smart repair job then and il hold my hands up.

I MY experiance i havent seen one.


----------



## squiggs

robdcfc said:


> Squiggs knows me and I'm sure he will tell you I'm at least 20 times better than him.


:lol::lol::lol: Guns at dawn


----------



## robdcfc

cossierick said:


> Show me a good smart repair job then and il hold my hands up.
> 
> I MY experiance i havent seen one.


Exactly you can't see it!


----------



## Andyb0127

robdcfc said:


> Squiggs knows me and I'm sure he will tell you I'm at least 20 times better than him.


Only twenty lol. :lol:


----------



## squiggs

cossierick said:


> Show me a good smart repair job then and il hold my hands up.
> 
> I MY experiance i havent seen one.


That's because you can't spot an invisible repair


----------



## Jem

cossierick said:


> Show me a good smart repair job then and il hold my hands up.
> 
> I MY experiance i havent seen one.


I would post a picture of it, but there is no point, because even first hand you couldn't tell at all, but I detailed a Nissan GTR last year that had had brake fluid spilt onto the top of the off side front wing by a careless dealer when they serviced the car. I couldn't tell it had been smart repaired at all, other than PTG readings being a little thicker than the rest of the car. The car was a dark silver and the colour match was perfect, even the slight orangepeel had been matched perfectly.


----------



## squiggs

Andyb0127 said:


> Only twenty lol. :lol:


He thinks this only cos he has to use twenty more grades of paper to get to his final finish :lol:


----------



## pcm1980

pcm1980 said:


> Just out of interest, what are the brands of the non-iso primers and clear coats that people are using?
> 
> Sent from my GT-P5110 using Tapatalk 2


Bump 

Sent from my GT-P5110 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## Andyb0127

squiggs said:


> He thinks this only cos he has to use twenty more grades of paper to get to his final finish :lol:


Sure it wasn't because there were twenty different variants, and didn't know what to use for the final finish. :lol:


----------



## cossierick

Wow you lot spit the dummy out easyly. Lol


----------



## squiggs

pcm1980 said:


> Just out of interest, what are the brands of the non-iso primers and clear coats that people are using?
> 
> Sent from my GT-P5110 using Tapatalk 2


Why do you ask?
Are you in the trade - thinking of coming in?????


----------



## squiggs

Andyb0127 said:


> Sure it wasn't because there were twenty different variants, and didn't know what to use for the final finish. :lol:


Well I've heard he's on his second reading of Fifty Shades of Grey and still hasn't got the right one :lol:


----------



## squiggs

cossierick said:


> Wow you lot spit the dummy out easyly. Lol


When people slate the trade you're in, the trade you earn a living from and label all in that trade as cowboys then it's easy to 'spit the dummy out'.
If what ever you do for a living was labelled as 'being a cowboy' and if that label could jeopardise your chances of putting food on the table for your family you'd probably spit your dummy out too (no sane man wouldn't!).

There are plenty of 'not so goods' in the Smart trade - but please don't tar all of us with the same brush 

(Mind you - it could be worse ... I could have been calling people to find out if they've been mis-sold PPI  )


----------



## pcm1980

squiggs said:


> Why do you ask?
> Are you in the trade - thinking of coming in?????


Yeah im in the trade, i work at a dealership bodyshop where we can only use approved paint (glasurit white label), so what i'm basically saying is, i work in a sheltered enviroment and dont get kept upto date with new products, unless it carries an approval from the manafacturer i work for. It would be good to know of the non iso 2k products your using as i have a good pal of mine doing smart repairs for a living and he is using normal 2k.
Also as i said mentioned earlier, this kind of bumper repair he would typically charge £40-50, fair enough that would be trade price, but retail would be no more than £75.

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## Hoovie

If he is using ISO 2k for Smart Repairs then that really is not a good idea for the environmental reasons that you are already aware of 
Most companies selling to SMART Repairers sell 2k non-ISO clearcoat as their 'suggested' solution (I think it is only SmartExpress that seem to really be promoting an ISO Clearcoat for SMART (and I find that they do so most surprising TBH)

Is he stuck at that price level due to local competition? Where is he based? At those prices, I honestly think it must be very hard (impossible?) to be covering his costs and making a viable living 
Trade Price around here is more then he is able to charge for Retail!


----------



## nighthawk

Sit back light fuse and watch!


----------



## Hoovie

nighthawk said:


> Sit back light fuse and watch!


Sad


----------



## Bill58

I've had two smart repairs done to two brand new cars and you just couldn't see the repairs! Both carried out by a member on this forum.


----------



## Andyb0127

nighthawk said:


> Sit back light fuse and watch!


Fuse was lit a few pages back, must be a slow burning one lol. :lol:

It's the smell of burning hair you want to watch out for. When Aaron's hairy nipples get singed lol. :lol:


----------



## CD Cornwall

Back to the OP! That is a classic SMART repair. It's low down, doesn't involve spraying to meet another panel and certainly doesn't need the bumper removed. Lots of bodyshops are struggling and are prepared to give away their expertise at low prices - the problem is quality often suffers. I do SMART repairs in a bodyshop environment as well as mobile (in the past) and I've used the same products in both cases - the difference is in the type of job. Larger jobs are more feasible in a controlled environment and jobs like the OP's are perfect for SMART.

I frequently see 'bodyshop' jobs which I would have been ashamed to have left my premises and I suspect it's mainly down to cost cutting measures. Something a lot of bodyshops do seem to struggle with is fades up pillars - most SMART repairers could show them a thing or two!!! It's what we specialise in. I have a local bodyshop which is renowned for their cheapness... I can spot their work a mile off. There's a reason why things are cheap.

I charge what I think the job is worth. Consequently, I can perform a quality SMART or bodyshop job, whichever you wish to call it, because I don't have to rush and cut back on materials to save money. If the customer thinks it's too much, they don't have to use me. I give a lifetime guarantee (even on the lacquer fades!) and get plenty of recommendations. 

As in any trade, there are the 'low-ballers' who get their work by being cheaper than everyone else. The fact is, cheapness and quality are not good partners. By far the best route is to get recommendations from people you trust. Whether it's a bodyshop or mobile, you will get a good result and if something goes wrong, you will have a proper guarantee.

BTW - you would be surprised how many 'new' cars have had SMART repairs either at the factory or at the dealership - have you seen the repairs? Bodyshops criticising SMART are often still working in the dark ages as has been stated before. SMART is an process being adopted by big bodyshops and is approved by insurers. Also lease return vehicles often require repairs to avoid fines imposed by the lease company and SMART repair is frequently used and goes undetected.

Cheers
David


----------



## pcm1980

Hoovie said:


> If he is using ISO 2k for Smart Repairs then that really is not a good idea for the environmental reasons that you are already aware of
> Most companies selling to SMART Repairers sell 2k non-ISO clearcoat as their 'suggested' solution (I think it is only SmartExpress that seem to really be promoting an ISO Clearcoat for SMART (and I find that they do so most surprising TBH)
> 
> Is he stuck at that price level due to local competition? Where is he based? At those prices, I honestly think it must be very hard (impossible?) to be covering his costs and making a viable living
> Trade Price around here is more then he is able to charge for Retail!


He is based in leeds west yorkshire, to be honest even at them prices his turn over is £70-80k a year for 5 1/2 days a week, makes my bodyshop salary feel like minimum wage 

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## robdcfc

pcm1980 said:


> He is based in leeds west yorkshire, to be honest even at them prices his turn over is £70-80k a year for 5 1/2 days a week, makes my bodyshop salary feel like minimum wage
> 
> Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2


Doesn't matter if his TO is £1 million, how much profit is he making???

Turnover for vanity, profit for sanity!


----------



## Hoovie

If the guy is happy with what he is selling his time and skills for, then good luck to him and assuming he is turning out decent work, his customers are getting one hell of a good deal 

He is working damn hard for the money though, as to achieve the turnover, he will be doing an average in excess of 5 jobs a day for 6 days a week, 50 weeks a year. Not something I'd be up for (call me lazy  )


----------



## markie

Thanks for the input guys,I have had a local bodyshop reccomended to me so i will be going there for a quote aswell.The chap at revive was reccomended to me by someone who has had several jobs done by him and he said that he produced good work,although he may not be as ocd as me lol.When i spoke to the revive guy he said he had 18 years bodyshop experience and he did seem to know what he was talking about,he told me he would take the repair right back to the plastic if needed.
I'm not to worried about the cost i just want a good job.
pic below is work carried out by a bodyshop!! now see why im worried


----------



## markie

Quick update,booked in a local bodyshop£120.
Cheers for all your comments guys,will post an after pic up here,lets hope its ok lol


----------



## carfix

*Smart repairs, good or bad ?*

As an independant Smart Repairer, Detailing obsessive and by extension a petrolhead, I like to keep up with complimentary trades and enjoy the discussions on here. I dont post as i have more to learn than teach about detailing, but i do have the odd toothbrush just for air vents, and my local Funeral Parlour is forever indebted with my recommendation of Collonite 476 learned about on here, as it saves hours each week with the Hearses , ( it is however, a bit of a bugger to get off when I need to blow in a corner or two).

There isnt much I need to add to the case for Smart Repair that hasn't already been said by others, however, it may help if i explain that as with car detailing, there are many business models that make up the sector.

If I opined that the Detailing trade were all cowboys basing my research on an EMO regular Wash, i'm sure that you would feel i was misinformed and unfair.

Whilst poking fun and dismissing Smart Repairs as inferior is an easy sport, it indicates a real lack of knowledge and understanding of the motor trade, which is worrying as I would have thought that the members of the premier Detailing Forum in the UK would be more informed and responsible in their posts.

Think of a triangle with the three angles labelled " Time", Quality" and "Price" . Within that triangle I can provide different repairs for different markets. The secret is in finding what the customer finds acceptable and tuning the job to meet their need. Some need top quality, to others its speed of turnaround, and to other again, its value for money that's attractive. 
A smart repairer focussing on a second hand car retailer, would have to be keen on price, and have a fast turnaround, but the Principal will only want to pay for a quality that his market requires. If that market is retailing 10 year old Corsa's, most on here would be able to find fault as we are on this forum to share best practice, but the repairer has managed his customers expectations and that's what was specified. You pays yer money and take your choice !
In an average day , I may be repairing a vandal scratch high up on a £70,000 Lamborghini in the morning, and be doing the fifth corner in two years on a Mobility Yaris in the afternoon. Whilst I dont think anyone on here would be disappointed with either repair, they have very differing requirements. The Lambo repair will be matched to not just colour, but texture and "depth of Illusion". I will also have to manage the tyndall effect as they tend to have pearl and three stage paint finishes. My repair will be smaller and less noticeable than a body shop repair and will have to be judged by very knowledgeable observers and the care and attention would be reflected within the price. The Yaris repair however, will have to be no better than is needed to pass the end of lease inspection, and this will also be reflected within the price. 
Whilst it is certainly possible to have the O/P's car in the photo repaired for £50 within the trade, it wouldn't be by me. Whilst the stress cracks visible are likely to be down to the plastic, a good flexible polyester filler would have the necessary flexibility to move with, and mimic the plastic bumpers characteristics, and i would expect to use a 3000 grit abralon and 3m fastcut n' green pad followed by some Ultra on blue to get the finish i require, which would take 2.5 hours I couldn't do that for £50. I could do it better than a body shop, and completely invisible to everyone including those with a £1700 paint thickness probe (as are most plastic repairs, as magnetic resonance has a bit of a problem with Plastics) for around £120 and for that I come to you, the repair will be less obvious than a body shop, and it will be cheaper than a bodyshop and have a guarantee for life. Why consider anything else ?

The argument that the only proper repair is where the whole panel is painted in a body shop environment is often misleading. As the original paint used in the factory is developed for a particular controlled environment being used on a "body in white", so is made to cure at a higher temperature, and has more durability than refinishing paints. Reputable smart repairers therefore will endeavour to maintain as much of the original finish as possible. Surely this is logical to everyone.

I mainly work for the private customer, and have repaired my fair share of stars cars, have done the odd classic racing car ( a £4000 Photospectrometer helps with period finishes) and have a couple of high end retailers ( its always enjoyable to pull out photos of me repairing Veyrons and Enzos when a Scoobie owner asks if I can get a good enough finish), but I'm not averse to tidying up Daf Trucks for the local distributor, and I've even been caught patching mint green Smeg Fridges, its all good !

If you are still unsure about the ability of Smart Repair to be "as good" as a bodyshop style repair, I will leave you with this :
I mainly use Dupont Cromax refinish paints. Each year I attend their Stevenage Head Office for updates on products and refreshers. Whilst I was there in April, on a hand tinting course for a few days, there was just one more chap on the course so we struck up a friendship. He had just moved from being Manager of Aston Martins paint line to manage the new Jaguar line, (both use Dupont Cromax O/E) and although he was Managing rather than hands on, he needed to keep up with shop floor practices. Apparently, at Jaguar, If the cars are rejected after the paint shop inspection, they used to be sent round again and given another pass thru the full process, but in line with most other car makers, where the imperfection fits the criteria, they now prefer to complete smart repairs in a department just after the paint line. They do it by hand using Dupont Cromax Refinish paint, with Sata guns and Infra red lamps, just like me. They have found that in the hands of experienced operators, smart repairs give a better finish and more durability than a complete respray in the most sophisticated automatic bodyshop you could imagine. Go figure......

Many traditional bodyshops now have a smart operation within, and the techniques are recognised as having a valid place in refinishing.

So lets have no more ill informed comment on the matter, Even 15 years ago I was attending Franchise Exhibitions with the Smart Repair market leader. We would have a Merc S class there in 744 Silver that we had completed 20 patch repairs upon and asked the delegates to try and find them. . They never could. At the end of each day we would wipe the repairs off with a release agent and the public were staggered what could be achieved. Whilst the durability of the 1K lacquer we used in those days was questionable, that has now long been fixed and I use far better quality lacquer than most bodyshops as i use so little i can afford to pay a premium price, and quality breeds quality.

The only smart repairs you see are the poor ones, you will never see the good ones. 
Best Wishes for the New Year , Rob at Carfix.


----------



## pcm1980

carfix said:


> As an independant Smart Repairer.....
> 
> for around £120 and for that I come to you, the repair will be less obvious than a body shop, and it will be cheaper than a bodyshop and have a guarantee for life. Why consider anything else ?


How is your £120 cheaper than the £120 quote from the bodyshop the is booked into??
Also how will your repair be less obvious than a repair carried out in a bodyshop??

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## robdcfc

pcm1980 said:


> How is your £120 cheaper than the £120 quote from the bodyshop the is booked into??
> Also how will your repair be less obvious than a repair carried out in a bodyshop??
> 
> Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2


I believe Glenn is referring to the convienience factor of not having to drop off/pick up the vehicle, when you can sit and watch Jeremy Kyle while the vehicle is repaired at your premises.

Rob


----------



## carfix

As above, I do not wish to knock bodyshop methods, but do you really know the processes that they use these days ? Smart repairers cannot hide behind poor preparation or cut corners, however the way that some bodyshops work, there is latitude to shorten the processes without the initial look of the repair suffering.
The price maybe the same, but knowing the margins that bodyshops have to work to, I would have an educated guess that instead of finessing the filling , which takes skill and time, most bodyshops these days use a high build primer, probably a self leveller such as Lechler Ti and have to paint more car as they have to get the thicker paint out of the gun with more pressure, this has the knock-on effect that justifies them to fade the colour out more gently. This means there is less leverage on the Paint Mixer to get the colour correct because softer fade outs hide the difference. Its sometimes worse than that, in some operations, the painter doesn't mix the paint, and has to go with what is provided for him by a different employee. Have you ever wondered why it takes two or three days to complete a repair whose processes only take three hours ? If I tell you that often the primer is applied at the end of day one with a radiator roller, and is so thick that it takes all night to dry,and its the primer that ends up being smoothed rather than the filler, you may get an idea of the differences between the two "systems".

Why is an excess of coats not good for your car ? Up till 2007 when legislation decreased the use of high solvent base paint ( that's the colour coat under the Lacquer) the different layers paint make up was closely matched in that the solvent content was around 60% in base, and slightly less in Laquer, which meant that when you applied the laq, it cross linked with the base. This gave good adhesion between coats. These days you are not supposed to use Solvent rich base coat unless its for an "industrial process" On a car this means wheels ! So its still available to buy and is being used by some less reputable repairers. We in the 21st Century however have moved on as has the technology, and we now use what you would know as emulsion paint for the colour. There is still about 15% solvent in there but it has emulsifiers to keep the water and solvent in the paint talking to each other untill surface evaporation takes place and the base coat "dries". |If the word emulsion worries you, most German cars have been using it since the late eighties, and in the nineties the rest of the world followed suit. The laquer makeup, whilst going "Hi solid" is still full of solvent to help the flow out ( where it levels itself to an extent) but the various coats are now very different beasts and there is less cross linking. Now solvent had smaller molecules than the water based stuff, and is therefore a thicker coating of less dense paint. Now imagine a stone chip landing on the new paint. It will already go thru a thicker set of paint layers that do not have the resilience of the old system. If you then add more layers of softer ( manufactured like that cos you like it shiny and galvanisation and plastics mean you dont have to have the protection Cellulose gave at the expence of glossing ) paint it doesnt take a genius to work out lots of heavy coats of primer, surfacer, base and laquer is going to give you a more suceptable repair with less durability. That's why a £120 Smart repair is technically better for you than a £120 Body shop one. For that price I can give you a matched system designed to work together from in my case, Dupont, The system runs from primer to top coat and as i dont have bosses I can use what i think is the best I can get. At a bodyshop charging that money, to make a profit, you will be lucky to be on a last generation second division system with little r and d and poor support. Not trying to be provocative, its just business. 

Regarding the matching, if the job requires it, I will gladly hand finish the repair to get the texture to match the original, this just doesnt happen in a bodyshop unless you have a hand finished car, so a smart repair has less chance of detection as well. it As I said before, less secondary paint has to make for a better repair, although we are mixing less quantity of paint, and there is an opportunity for the tint ratio to be less accurate, in reality, smart repairers complete the repair from start to finish and have an extra incentive to get it right compared to the usual arrangement of umpteen different repairers in anything bigger than a Ma and Pa bodyshop operation.We have to care about the job. I really dont wish to sound as if im finding ways to knock the process, but this is the reality of repairing cars these days. We also come to you, and take less time. 
We exist in a technology driven industry, which will always change.
Some folks find change is difficult to take, add in a pinch of misdirection from "interested parties" and the odd rogue, which you get in all walks of life, and you have a recipe for well meaning but ill informed souls to spread blanket untruths that become urban myths. 
I hope this explaint is a little better. I dont wish to get too technical, but sometimes you cant make the point without the bigger story. Sorry !

Best wishes Rob at Carfix


----------



## markie

Where are you based Rob?


----------



## carfix

I live in Clayton-le-Woods in Lancashire and tend to do work in the Blackburn, Bolton and Blackpool triangle ( some say its the Bermuda Triangle these days if you enjoy the Premiership) ! I do pop over to Carrington every now and then thou.

I have happy memories of Southampton as in a different life in the Eighties I worked for B and Q as amongst other things, an Opening Store Manager, which meant that I used to live in the Dolphin on and off for years.


Thankyou everyone for your er...support !


----------



## pcm1980

I understand what you say about keeping upto date with the latest products and techniques as i'm often sent on courses from work, and i have been on spot repair courses, as have other members of staff, so how can you say bodyshop staff dont know anything about smart repairs? I also cant see how you think a repair carried out on somebodys drive can be compared to a repair carried out in a controlled enviroment? Painting out side increases the chance of contamination, dirt inclusions etc.

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## robdcfc

I think you need a day out with a competent smart repairer.


----------



## pcm1980

Rob at carfix, which brand of clearcoat are you using? I'm not aware of dupont having a non iso clear in there range of clears, then again I could be mistaken. 

Sent from my GT-P5110 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## carfix

Hi PCM, 
I appreciate your concerns about environment affecting repairs. As with most repairers I am preparing 90% of the time and actually painting perhaps 10% . During the prep, I may be using water etc in rubbing down and shaping repairs so inclement weather is not as worrying as you may think. Of course I do have to degrease regularly and when it comes time to lay paint on, i have to manage my environment 
For instance, the guns i use day to day are Iwata LPH80's They are little jewels and were developed for use by Peugeot in the factory rectification paint bays and were introduced for very small repairs. They have a .6mm air cap compared to perhaps a 1.5mm cap on a standard gun, but its the air pressure that tells the story. You may be using up to 20bar with a standard gun which is enough force to cover the whole car in overspray just from doing a bumper corner, but my guns will atomise paint as low as 1.2bar. This means Airbrush performance, getting down from a 5mm line, widening to a 4" fan, virtually no bounceback , I spray from just 4 inches from the workpiece and and unless i have a hard edge to do, I tend not to have to use masking as the spillout is so light. As I need to control the laydown of any effect like pearl or metallics, I have a heat gun in my other hand which i constantly dry off the base coat with. A technique that is like patting your heat and rubbing your tummy. When I had a lesson in a Helicopter,which has simular needs the instructor was impressed at my co-ordination, which he put down to years of balancing the two tools in sync. I must put learning the Piano on my bucket list.
Top coat takes 6 mins to dry as i can get a glass finish with little texture with a layup of around 25micron, and this is without the need of drying accelerators like rocket. ( Rocket sacrifices flexibility and makes surfaces brittle with little speed advantage ) Of course this is with a quality fast Dupont Laquer. If its a drizzly day I carry a posh tent that envelops the vehicle and has weights and grooves in the legs to slide in side panels to ensure good working conditions. At the speed and distance I have to work at , dust, insects and twigs dont get a chance, and even rain has to be epic to stop the repair. The only aspect outside my control is that i need 6200 k light. Daylight. The work I do has to be precise so I cant work under artificial light as it creates a cast usually magnifying the red side of the spectrum. Even with the small sizes I repair, getting a colour corrected light of enough magnitude is not do-able so light can stop play. So you see I am able in most instances to control my environment.
I have already mentioned that the more progressive body shops and all the manufacturers now have Smart bays. It wont be long before the technique develops a feeling of maturity with the general public as more bodyshops advertise the benefits and it becomes the norm. I originally felt the need to post as incorrect information that smart as a technique was inferior to bodyshop was being expounded. It is complementary and I only criticise bodyshops that propagate that myth because they dont want to embrace new cost saving methods and choose to fight the market by planting unfounded scare stories. Bodyshops that do smart and spot technique are fine by me as they legitimise the profession and make my life easier. If anything, learning the parameters of Smart, makes the average painter a more thoughtful and considerate employee as he has to unlearn all the rules that used to exist 50 years ago and raise his game. Hopefully, in this set of posts, I have been able to challenge some commonly held misconceptions. 
All the best Rob at Carfix.


----------



## robdcfc

He doesn't HAVE to use a non iso as long as he is adhering to the guidelines for spraying in an uncontrolled environment regarding size of repair and exclusion zones etc. 

This is something that the spot repair days you have been on probably haven't discussed as its not relevant if you are still doing it within the confines of the shop.


----------



## carfix

Hello PCM, sorry we must have crossed in the post.
No you are not mistaken, I dont use Non Iso Clears.
I am not enamoured by any of the Non Iso Clears I have tried so far. We have a way to go to find one that is acceptable to me. I use a variety of Dupont Laqs and Hardeners depending on what the jobs on and more importantly where on the vehicle it is. We constantly have to juggle longevity and durability considerations with depth of shine etc so I use experience to decide what to use where. I also use a U/V lacquer where its unique properties can be utelised. No,... speed of curing is seldom the reason to use,but i've found low supercar front ends tend to be more durable with a coat on, but lack of control of environment is usually the reason not to use it. 

I hope it is not the case but if you feel that this a ***** in my carapace that you can ridicule, I would point out that the Guidelines, are guidelines,and that they were crafted somewhat politically after lobbying by a Smart Franchisor that were contractually obliged to use products that were exempt......but of variable quality. 

They were also laid out before the current crop of HVLP guns were developed. Guns that make a mockery of the Cones and Tape exclusion zone. If I take my mask off during painting, I cant smell the paint, and i'm less than a metre away. ( of course my nostrils may be shot due to years of solvent misuse, but I do have a medical each year, and each year it comes back with no desensitivity detected.)

I dont spray in enclosed areas and use common sense rules regarding exclusion zones and manage the situation. A common misconception is that its the Isocyanate ( tuolene etc) that will do the damage, but you are far more likely to suffer industrialised asthma first.


----------



## squiggs

pcm1980 said:


> I also cant see how you think a repair carried out on somebodys drive can be compared to a repair carried out in a controlled enviroment? Painting out side increases the chance of contamination, dirt inclusions etc.
> 
> Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2


As you probably know the actual process of spraying takes a minimal amount of time, (on some small Smart repairs we're probably talking about less than 10 seconds per coat) and paint and lacquer skin over very quickly once the drying/baking process is started - so the window of opportunity for dirt to contaminate the wet finish is very, very small.
Obviously where possible a responsible repairer will take care not to work under trees full of roosting birds, next to muddy puddles that passing traffic is splashing through or on a beach in gale force winds :thumb:


----------



## Hoovie

squiggs said:


> ...
> Obviously where possible a responsible repairer will take care not to work under trees full of roosting birds, next to muddy puddles that passing traffic is splashing through or on a beach in gale force winds :thumb:


or in typical Scottish weather for 9 months of the year :lol:

Just Kidding (I think - as I arrange to do the prep on a bumper just inside the doors of my workshop to avoid the rain and wind  )


----------

