# Dealership Woes



## MBRuss (Apr 29, 2011)

Urgh, why is it always so hard to get the dealership not to wash the car?!

I recently got a brand new Jaguar I-Pace in black (I know, risky business choosing black).

I requested that it wasn't washed before being delivered to me, and the supplying dealer obliged and did just that.

Then the car had to go into the dealership because the windscreen hadn't been bonded in properly, so leaked into the passenger footwell, turning it into a mini swimming pool.

So the car goes into the dealer with 3 (three, yes THREE!) A4 signs saying DO NOT WASH!! in big capital letters, written with a big chunky black marker pen.

Then when the car gets to Jaguar I call them and tell them the car is not to be washed under any circumstances. They tell me "yes, no problem, I'll write it on the top of the job card and it won't be put out for washing".

I then re-iterate the same message on several other phone calls, explaining that they can pour water on the car to check the leak has been fixed, but they are strictly not allowed to wash the car. Each time they reassure me that the car absolutely will not be washed.

I think you can guess the outcome by now... 

Car arrives back today after them having had it for over 3 weeks, washed, scratched, and with what looks like bubbling paint on the bonnet. As the car is brand new and made mostly from aluminium, I can only assume the bubbled paint is a touch-up, for damage that they've caused whilst the car was in their care. 

Is following instructions not to wash a car really that complicated?! :wall:


----------



## MBRuss (Apr 29, 2011)

Here's pics of just some of the damage on the front of the car. Not had chance to look properly yet.























Sent from my LYA-L09 using Tapatalk


----------



## Sicskate (Oct 3, 2012)

The bubble bit looks like it could be tree sap? 

Have you approached the dealer?

Sent from my COR-L29 using Tapatalk


----------



## MBRuss (Apr 29, 2011)

Pretty sure it's not tree sap - it has been indoors drying out for the last week! Also, the paint is really raised and bumpy - pretty sure it's touch up paint.

I've called the dealer and given them a b*ll*cking for washing it and told them about the damage. They requested pics so I sent the above pics over.

Since then they've gone back to not bothering to call me back, as usual. :wall:


----------



## MrPassat (Mar 30, 2018)

Really sorry that's happened to you, it's terrible.
I hope the outcome is the one you want.


----------



## minotaur uk (Dec 13, 2018)

Just unbelievable, the incompetance of dealerships now days is amazing. Having had poor experiences with dealerships....I can totally empathise with you. Make sure everything gets sorted!!!


----------



## Naddy37 (Oct 27, 2005)

Had the same from my local Mercedes dealership. Their answer 'Our valeters can't read or speak English!'


----------



## Walesy. (Oct 1, 2009)

Its unbelievable the lack of care from the so called 'flagship' dealerships. 

My 5 Series went in for a replacement wheel, after it corroded 5 weeks after the initial replacement and I noted 4 days later that they had chipped the back door and touched it up a poodles head!


----------



## MBRuss (Apr 29, 2011)

Naddy37 said:


> Had the same from my local Mercedes dealership. Their answer 'Our valeters can't read or speak English!'


I did think about that and considered trying to draw some sort of image to convey not washing the car. I thought telling the person in charge of my car numerous times that it wasn't to be washed was enough (along with the 3 massive signs in the actual car).

Apparently not.

It's when the lady in charge of my car said "I didn't know you didn't want it washed" after we'd had several conversations about it!

They clearly did know I didn't want it washed, because when they sent the car back a week ago (still with a soaking wet carpet after having had the car over 2 weeks) they had left the car unwashed, as instructed. They just seemed to forget all that in the last week.

Also, the three signs have disappeared, even the one that's difficult to reach on the parcel shelf.

Quite why they removed them, I don't know. It wasn't to tidy up the car, because they left mud on the leather of my interior driver's door (on the handle and arm rest) and all over the sill. :wall:

The issue I think, is that most "normal" people don't quite understand why we don't want our cars washed by the guy that has to wash 100 cars every day with a single bucket and sponge. You ask them not to wash the car and they look at you like something's wrong with you.

They'll probably begin to take notice when they get the bill for bonnet respray and the detail and machine polish...


----------



## MBRuss (Apr 29, 2011)

Walesy. said:


> Its unbelievable the lack of care from the so called 'flagship' dealerships.
> 
> My 5 Series went in for a replacement wheel, after it corroded 5 weeks after the initial replacement and I noted 4 days later that they had chipped the back door and touched it up a poodles head!


My boss recently bought a brand new Porsche 911. It already broke down because of a water pump failure and it had a flat tyre and a broken speaker.

The dealership damaged the wheel replacing the tyre and the door card now rattles where they replaced the speaker. He took it back to get them to sort the rattle out and they took the other door card off to check the other speaker and now both door cards rattle! :lol:

Sometimes it almost seems like they do it on purpose!

"Hey, this guy is really really keen to ensure we don't wash his car - make sure you drop it round to scratchy Scott, the quick valet guy who stores his sponge on the floor." :wall:


----------



## Walesy. (Oct 1, 2009)

MBRuss said:


> My boss recently bought a brand new Porsche 911. It already broke down because of a water pump failure and it had a flat tyre and a broken speaker.
> 
> The dealership damaged the wheel replacing the tyre and the door card now rattles where they replaced the speaker. He took it back to get them to sort the rattle out and they took the other door card off to check the other speaker and now both door cards rattle! :lol:
> 
> ...


Aye and use the brillo pads for the really dirty bits!


----------



## EliteCarCare (Aug 25, 2006)

We've had to paint correct a few cars over the years where this has happened despite the owner requesting no washing.

It looks like yours will need some paintwork too.

Get some estimates for the remedial work and tell them they're liable, don't let them fob you off as believe me, they'll try!


----------



## MBRuss (Apr 29, 2011)

EliteCarCare said:


> We've had to paint correct a few cars over the years where this has happened despite the owner requesting no washing.
> 
> It looks like yours will need some paintwork too.
> 
> Get some estimates for the remedial work and tell them they're liable, don't let them fob you off as believe me, they'll try!


Yeah, don't worry, they aren't getting off the hook!

Here's some more pics I just grabbed, despite my phone not wanting to play ball.

Looks like Freddy Krueger helped Edward Scissorhands wash it.

I particularly like where they've washed the car with the door handles out and just washed around them!

































































Sent from my LYA-L09 using Tapatalk


----------



## Walesy. (Oct 1, 2009)

MBRuss said:


> Yeah, don't worry, they aren't getting off the hook!
> 
> Here's some more pics I just grabbed, despite my phone not wanting to play ball.
> 
> ...


FFS


----------



## MBRuss (Apr 29, 2011)

That's not the half of it - the picture of the top of the front bumper, just in front of the bonnet doesn't really show how bad that area is. The scratches span the whole width of the panel, but the light only picks up a small section of it at a time for photos. I'll record a video at some point if I can. Looks like it was washed with coarse sandpaper.

Completely proves the point of why we all ask the dealers not to wash our cars though. My paint was perfect - only I had ever washed the car from new and only a handful of times since getting the car. All that damage was inflicted from a single wash by the dealer.

The bubbled bit on the front edge of the bonnet I have no idea about. Shows how honest the dealer is though, that they tried to cover it up and hope that I wouldn't notice.

Sent from my LYA-L09 using Tapatalk


----------



## bigcarpchaser (May 6, 2008)

Have you posted this up on a Jag forum/facebook/twitter/jag customer services? 
None of them like bad publicity but wouldn’t have thought many would be reading this. 
I know for a fact people at JLR used to read our Discovery forums.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## MBRuss (Apr 29, 2011)

I've posted it up on the I-Pace forums, along with the additional issues I've had with Jaguar refusing to replace the water damaged carpet in my 3 month old top of the range I-Pace. It seems that they're happy to let a brand new £80k car have a sopping wet carpet in it for 4 weeks, then just leave it with all the doors and boot open and the heaters on full blast to dry it out. They told me they had heaters in the car drying it out, but the car came back with 30% less charge than it went in with (despite not having covered more than 1 mile) and the blowers on full blast on the highest heat setting. My Jag app also let me see that it was left for a few days with the doors, windows and boot all open.

I may see what I can post on their social media, but I didn't receive any response from the Jaguar UK Twitter account when I tweeted a photo of my car being hauled off on a flatbed for the second time. They just really don't seem to give a sh*t.

Sent from my LYA-L09 using Tapatalk


----------



## BruceVolvo (Oct 31, 2016)

I have to say when I took my 9 year old new to me XF into Listers Jag in Droitwich just after I got it in April for a service, the receptionist asked me if I wanted the car washed as some of their customers didn't like it. I said yes to the washing :doublesho as it was full of swirls etc anyway, obviously don't know if it would have been washed if I had said no.


----------



## Eddmeister (May 6, 2011)

The bubbly bit could be the windscreen bond, that's black and sticks like ****.

Dreadful service from them, I had an astra VXR that unfortunately had to go into the body shop and for professionals the state of the car when I got it back was disgraceful, people just don't care.


----------



## steveo3002 (Jan 30, 2006)

terrible to think thats acceptable , just think every car that passes through there comes out like that , bet its been washed with a brush

id be beyond fuming if that happened to my old banger let alone a new premium car , and theres no right solution now is there ? roar some clearcoat off and /or start repainting things


----------



## MBRuss (Apr 29, 2011)

steveo3002 said:


> terrible to think thats acceptable , just think every car that passes through there comes out like that , bet its been washed with a brush
> 
> id be beyond fuming if that happened to my old banger let alone a new premium car , and theres no right solution now is there ? roar some clearcoat off and /or start repainting things


If I have to keep the car (I'm in the process of trying to reject it altogether, due to all the issues I've had) then I'll be asking for them to pay for a full detail inside and out, including a full machine polish and ceramic coating. Hopefully the ceramic goes a little way to helping out where I've lost clear coat to the polishing.

In all actuality though, since sending the photos of the damage to them yesterday they've just gone silent and not contacted me back. No surprises there. I'm half expecting them to fob me off and offer nothing. I'm at a loss to explain how they can think such terrible customer service is acceptable on any car, let alone one that costs as much as this one.

"Premium" my a**e

Sent from my LYA-L09 using Tapatalk


----------



## steveo3002 (Jan 30, 2006)

MBRuss said:


> If I have to keep the car (I'm in the process of trying to reject it altogether, due to all the issues I've had) then I'll be asking for them to pay for a full detail inside and out, including a full machine polish and ceramic coating. Hopefully the ceramic goes a little way to helping out where I've lost clear coat to the polishing.
> 
> Sent from my LYA-L09 using Tapatalk


^ until next time it needs a service or repair 

id expect a smart repair on the wing and excuses that black cars look like that and get the foreign lad to run the buffer over it


----------



## Fatboy40 (Apr 15, 2013)

MBRuss said:


> ... they've just gone silent and not contacted me back...


Once you go down this path there's no turning back, it's the "nuclear option", but it sounds like you'll be soon getting a solicitor to write a formal letter to the dealer to get a resolution to this.


----------



## percymon (Jun 27, 2007)

Ask them if they'd be happy to park it under their showroom lights - i bet they wouldn't want it on show to potential customers.

Idiots, but then it's what we've come to expect from JLR - Half the staff aren't bothered about customers looking to buy a new car, and once you've got a vehicle the service/warranty side aren't interested either.


----------



## bigcarpchaser (May 6, 2008)

We successfully rejected our previous Ateca due to safety issues, it was a bit of a drawn out process and initially SEAT/VW did try and make life difficult but luckily the group sales manager had exactly the same problem as we did and once he was on side we were home and dry.
JLR are notorious for being rubbish, read through some of the discovery/Range Rover forums and you’ll see loads of examples of their crapness. 

Persevere, there’s no excuse for a product that costs so much money to be so ****e and not fit for purpose.
Get a solicitor on board if required ASAP.
Good luck.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Bug Sponge (Apr 9, 2017)

It always baffles me how massive companies can get the basics so wrong. You'd think with all the complaints they get they would change their bad habits. It's shocking.


----------



## Sh1ner (May 19, 2012)

Bug Sponge said:


> It always baffles me how massive companies can get the basics so wrong. You'd think with all the complaints they get they would change their bad habits. It's shocking.


Does it?
It doesn't me, these companies are so large, there is always someone new/unsuspecting to take your place.
All they do is dare you to take them on, are willing to outspend you and then out wait you. All tax free/expenses for them whilst any money you stump up comes out of your pocket and you may not have access to your vehicle whilst all this is going on.
Self regulation/competition does not work because there are no standards that have to be met.
There is nothing that they fear and calls them to account quickly and until legislation/regulators represents the people rather than business nothing will change.

Has the O/P spoken to his Local Trading Standards Office? They are often a good source of advice and I have known them make phone calls on the spot.
As Alex says be ready for a fight.


----------



## EliteCarCare (Aug 25, 2006)

Had a customer take his brand new VW T6 Transporter Sportline (in black) in to VW for some service work yesterday.
We did the full paint correction and GYEON coatings so it was looking perfect.
He specifically told them not to wash it or touch the paintwork in any way. The van was dirty when it went in, only because he didn't have time to wash it beforehand.

Collects it yesterday evening and some bright spark decided to wipe over a third of the van with a damp cloth! 

Looks like it's coming back to us again for correction and recoating, and the dealership WILL be paying for it.


----------



## Mugwump (Feb 17, 2008)

MBRuss said:


> ......Then the car had to go into the dealership because the windscreen hadn't been bonded in properly...............Car arrives back today after them having had it for over 3 weeks.......


It took them over three weeks to remove and refit the windscreen!!!!!!!

They would have had time to do the screen, and remove the carpet, dry it properly and refit it again in three days, let alone three weeks!


----------



## Cookies (Dec 10, 2008)

MBRuss said:


> Urgh, why is it always so hard to get the dealership not to wash the car?!
> 
> I recently got a brand new Jaguar I-Pace in black (I know, risky business choosing black).
> 
> ...


That's genuinely incredible, that a new I-pace had that sort of issue from new.

Cooks

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk


----------



## MBRuss (Apr 29, 2011)

Mugwump said:


> It took them over three weeks to remove and refit the windscreen!!!!!!!
> 
> They would have had time to do the screen, and remove the carpet, dry it properly and refit it again in three days, let alone three weeks!


Exactly! Although they dropped it back to me after two and a half weeks with the carpet still soaking wet!

Took them another week just to dry the carpet!

Sent from my LYA-L09 using Tapatalk


----------



## MBRuss (Apr 29, 2011)

Cookies said:


> That's genuinely incredible, that a new I-pace had that sort of issue from new.
> 
> Cooks
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk


Yeah, exactly. And the Jaguar tech that came to diagnose the leak had just been at a job with the same issue on a 1 day old Evoque!

Oh, and the best bit is that I told Jaguar about the leak when it first happened. My wife noticed water dripping from the bottom of the dash onto her feet. The car was in with Jag the next morning for the headlights to be fixed (another thing that didn't work properly from new) and so I mentioned the leak to them. They told me "oh we won't look at that today, keep an eye on it and let us know if it gets worse".

Next time I noticed the footwell was full of water.

Sent from my LYA-L09 using Tapatalk


----------



## Cookies (Dec 10, 2008)

MBRuss said:


> Yeah, exactly. And the Jaguar tech that came to diagnose the leak had just been at a job with the same issue on a 1 day old Evoque!
> 
> Sent from my LYA-L09 using Tapatalk


That's pretty poor quality control.

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk


----------



## MBRuss (Apr 29, 2011)

Yup. But the bit that really got me was that they wouldn't check it whilst they had it for the day.

When the Jaguar callout guy came to see the car after I noticed the leak it took him under 10 seconds to find the leak.

Why could they not have spent that 10 seconds at the dealership?! I told the callout guy the leak was on the passenger side and showed him the wet carpet. He immediately pushed upwards on the inside of the windscreen and the top edge moved out of place. "There's your leak."

Had Jaguar done this when I first told them we'd be talking about a resealed windscreen and a couple of drip on my passenger mat.

Now I'm trying to reject the whole car because the leak soaked the a pillar trim and carpets, then they got their muppet car wash guy to scratch the hell out of the paint and somehow they managed to damage the bonnet and got Stevie Wonder to touch it up by dipping his elbows in paint and trying to blob it roughly in the right place.

Sent from my LYA-L09 using Tapatalk


----------



## lijongtao (Dec 1, 2017)

Mine was at the body shop last week as the bumper they sprayed all bubbled. They have fixed it and it looks fab, it's just a pity I now have 3 huge dents in the back door now from what I can only assume are dings. One 4 inch long and 2 or3 others. Yet again it is going back to be fixed.


----------



## bluechimp (Dec 21, 2017)

Russ, this is awful on the manufacturing/quality side and also the dealership side. I do not blame you at all for rejecting the car, I would be doing.

This is why I dread any visit to a dealer, whether it be a service or anything. Luckily I go to a relatively small local dealer for the last few years and they know how bad I am. They even park it on its own away from all the other cars as a precaution. 

I really hope you get sorted mate, keep us posted.


----------



## percymon (Jun 27, 2007)

Cookies said:


> That's genuinely incredible, that a new I-pace had that sort of issue from new.
> 
> Cooks
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk


You clearly don't read the JLR forums then !


----------



## Venkman (Apr 22, 2013)

All the best getting it sorted. Hopefully you get to start enjoying your car soon, or a different one altogether!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## PWOOD (Apr 30, 2007)

percymon said:


> You clearly don't read the JLR forums then !


:lol:


----------



## [email protected] (May 30, 2006)

That’s not only shocking but not acceptable.

Any time I left any of my previous JLR vehicles in for service with do not wash they didn’t wash them after I put signage up.

But for an I-pace to be suffering those problems already, as much as I was tempted by one I’m kinda glad I didn’t go from f pace to I pace


----------



## MBRuss (Apr 29, 2011)

big pimp said:


> That's not only shocking but not acceptable.
> 
> Any time I left any of my previous JLR vehicles in for service with do not wash they didn't wash them after I put signage up.
> 
> But for an I-pace to be suffering those problems already, as much as I was tempted by one I'm kinda glad I didn't go from f pace to I pace


The I-Pace is actually a great car - if the windscreen had been fitted properly all of this could have been avoided and if it can happen on an I-Pace and an Evoque, it could just as easily happen on an F-Pace.

I'd still advise you to test drive one and put it in sport mode. Once you've tried a powerful fully electric drivetrain, there's no going back. It's like having a petrol or diesel that is always in the power band at any speed and doesn't even require shifting gears. You're going 30 and want to overtake? No problem, foot down and the car jumps forward immediately with no lag and with full torque and power. It really is fun.

If I end up rejecting this thing I'll almost certainly get a Tesla Model 3 Performance instead. I'll lose a lot of the Jag's creature comforts, but gain an even more powerful, even faster car and a much better infotainment.

Those two cars were the only ones I'd consider at the moment, in that price range.

And this is coming from a guy who considers the noise of an engine as one of the most important things about a car. It's a shame electric cars don't have a good noise, but for the equivalent performance of a fast electric car you'd be spending a fortune on a petrol car, just for the added noise. As my car is also a company car, a petrol equivalent with the same (or less) performance would cost much much more.

Otherwise I'd probably be driving an AMG C63! If I had a bit more to spend then that would be a seriously tempting proposition. That noise....

Sent from my LYA-L09 using Tapatalk


----------



## bigcarpchaser (May 6, 2008)

That's why I have a C63 and not a scalextrix car 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## MBRuss (Apr 29, 2011)

bigcarpchaser said:


> That's why I have a C63 and not a scalextrix car
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yeah, but the BIK on that would be mental. And the C63 would lose a race against the Tesla.

Maybe I just need some AMG noises (or a nice V10) to play through the stereo! 

Sent from my LYA-L09 using Tapatalk


----------



## TonyHill (Jul 28, 2015)

Have you been in a Tesla?? I valeted one the other day, the build quality was awful.


----------



## MBRuss (Apr 29, 2011)

TonyHill said:


> Have you been in a Tesla?? I valeted one the other day, the build quality was awful.


I've sat in a left hooker in a local shopping centre.

If I go for the Tesla then I'm going in with my eyes open. I'm aware the door jambs might be in primer, the side sills might chip back to bare metal and the panel gaps might be a bit wonky.

But for all the car stuff Tesla gets wrong, they get the tech stuff right. They have the best battery/power train combos and by far the best infotainment on the market.

It's a shame that we can't combine several cars together. The Tesla's drivetrain, battery and infotainment with the build quality of German cars, the reliability of Japanese cars and the value of Korean cars.

Sent from my LYA-L09 using Tapatalk


----------



## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

TonyHill said:


> Have you been in a Tesla?? I valeted one the other day, the build quality was awful.


They are absolutely dreadful for build quality.

The "leather" seats were what I'd expect to see in a budget car.

The Model 3 is also one of the ugliest cars on the road. I have the term "white goods" when describing cars, but a white Model 3 is as close to a fridge on wheels that you can get.

I hope the dealer sorts that car. There is nothing worse than trying to chase a dealer that doesn't want to deal with the issues.


----------



## MBRuss (Apr 29, 2011)

TonyHill said:


> Have you been in a Tesla?? I valeted one the other day, the build quality was awful.


Out of interest though, what items in particular did you find to be poor quality?

I've tried asking on the Tesla forums previously before I got the Jag, but where the Jag owners could be objective about the good and bad bits of their cars, the Tesla owners all seem to be brainwashed idiots that think the entire car is perfect, even if the wheels are falling off.

The Jag is mostly a great car, but the infotainment is very laggy and is a joke compared to the Tesla's stuff.

Comparing the Tesla infotainment to the Jag's is like comparing an iPhone to an old Nokia smartphone.

In fact, almost every car looks like a Nokia in comparison to what Tesla offer.

Sent from my LYA-L09 using Tapatalk


----------



## MBRuss (Apr 29, 2011)

Kerr said:


> They are absolutely dreadful for build quality.
> 
> The "leather" seats were what I'd expect to see in a budget car.
> 
> ...


Well the leather isn't leather. It's"vegan leather" also known as "fake leather" to everyone else!

I partially agree with you about the looks. I don't think the car is ugly, but I do think it's very anonymous looking. However, that's part of the charm - it's a complete sleeper.

Anything remotely comparable in performance is super shouty in both style and sound. They are obviously fast cars.

The Tesla is supercar fast, but looks like a mundane hatchback and makes no noise to draw attention to itself.

The interior is very Spartan and not very luxurious, but gets the basics right. All 5 seats are heated, the stereo is said to be really good and the infotainment is the best on the market and receives constant updates. The latest one includes Netflix, YouTube and Spotify. Previous ones made the car faster and added games and the ability to have the car record like a dashcam through its cameras, including when parked - great for those times you come back to find somebody bumped your car in a car park.

The exact reverse can be said about the Jag, the interior is very comfy and luxurious, soft leather, cooled and heated seats, electric tailgate, heads-up display, it has it all, but the infotainment is decidedly car-like, which is to say poor. Car makers just don't get how to make a good system, and generally speaking what you get when you buy the car is exactly what you'll have 20 years later. It doesn't improve over time like the Tesla.

Both cars have their strengths and weaknesses, but if the Tesla doesn't ever fill with rainwater then it's beaten the Jag on build quality...

Sent from my LYA-L09 using Tapatalk


----------



## bigcarpchaser (May 6, 2008)

MBRuss said:


> Yeah, but the BIK on that would be mental. And the C63 would lose a race against the Tesla.
> 
> Maybe I just need some AMG noises (or a nice V10) to play through the stereo!
> 
> Sent from my LYA-L09 using Tapatalk


lol it would win the first race up to 100 then they run out of oomph just when a big V8 is getting into its stride...
Then you have to wait 6 hours to win the next race if it hasn't fallen to pieces by then.
Been in a couple of Tesla's, I'm not a massive fan tbh. American Junk built in a tent hhaaa. 
The "tech" is fine and admirable. They just don't know how to build or design cars. Imho obv 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## MBRuss (Apr 29, 2011)

bigcarpchaser said:


> lol it would win the first race up to 100 then they run out of oomph just when a big V8 is getting into its stride...
> Then you have to wait 6 hours to win the next race if it hasn't fallen to pieces by then.
> Been in a couple of Tesla's, I'm not a massive fan tbh. American Junk built in a tent hhaaa.
> The "tech" is fine and admirable. They just don't know how to build or design cars. Imho obv
> ...


Well either car will be leased, so won't be allowed to go on a track. The national speed limit is 70 and the Tesla will beat the AMG to just about double that figure. Plenty for the roads. Also, the Model 3 has better cooling than the S, so doesn't have the same overheating issues.

Sent from my LYA-L09 using Tapatalk


----------



## chris chappell (Jun 6, 2007)

Same issue with my BMW 335 metallic black at dealership. I had machine polished and zymoled it and must have washed it twenty times- paintwork still swirl free.
One 'wash' by BMW after some warranty work and paintwork was identical to your jags.
Couldn't possibly be our staff thats done that sir as they are professionals and wash eighty cars a day!!!😂😂😂
Anyway with some trepidation I let them machine polish it and it turned out OK.

Wife's TT went into Audi for work. I had just had wheels refurbed and I had coated with C5. They were immaculate. Came away from Audi with front wheel curbed.😡😡
Took it in for them to refurb and they couldn't get a good finish due to C5 being on. I just gave up in the end and accepted an half decent job.
The day after the wife curbed the other THREE coming through a hospital car park pay station !!😡😡😡😡
Why do we bother!!!!!!!!😂😂


----------



## bigcarpchaser (May 6, 2008)

MBRuss said:


> Well either car will be leased, so won't be allowed to go on a track. The national speed limit is 70 and the Tesla will beat the AMG to just about double that figure. Plenty for the roads. Also, the Model 3 has better cooling than the S, so doesn't have the same overheating issues.
> 
> Sent from my LYA-L09 using Tapatalk


I do get the whole electric car thing tbh and if I purchased a car with my head rather than my heart I'd consider one for sure. My wife and I had a conversation about it earlier today as it goes. 
However, for us to consider one as a replacement for her Ateca we'd want.....an electric Ateca, or at least something comparable with reasonable range, all the toys hers has and the practicality.
What is there now for £35k say? 
Hyundai Kona, KIa Nero? maybe? Can't actually buy one for a year though.
I don't believe there is anything else.
Until electric cars are at a similar or cheaper price point than their ICE counterparts then I don't see them being mainstream. I think in 5 years time things will be different.
It's strange to think my youngest child (3) might never drive a petrol engined vehicle and will probably laugh at the thought of it. 
I'd probably have a Polestar 2 if I could choose and had a spare £55k.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## MBRuss (Apr 29, 2011)

Are the Polestars out yet? Might have to give it a Google.

If I won the lottery next week there's a whole list of petrol cars that I'd buy, but for a daily driver company car, electric is great.

I can charge the I-Pace fully for under £4.50 and it'll do 200 - 240 miles on a charge (one chap has done 300 on a single charge with careful driving and smaller wheels). The I-Pace will also get an 8% range increase soon, from a software update. It won't cost any extra to charge, either, so the additional miles are effectively free. There is no ICE car that can do 0 - 60 in 4.5 seconds and use only £4.50 of petrol to go 200+ miles.

The Tesla has a much smaller battery than the I-Pace (70KWh Vs 90Kwh) so will cost less to charge, but due to various efficiencies in the Tesla it goes around the same (or more) miles per charge than the I-Pace, so it'll cost less to run, despite doing the 0-60 sprint 1.3 seconds faster.

You never see that sort of thing in the ICE car world. More performance = less mpg, in general.

Other than the sounds they make, electric is superior in almost every way to ICE for performance as well. You're always in the power band, the power delivery is instant, the car's "fuel" doesn't slosh around as you corner and the car weighs the same whether it's full of fuel or empty, so setting suspension settings is easier as the weight stays the same, as does the weight balance. It's also easy to put the heavy bits (the battery) in the best place (the floor) to get a really low centre of gravity.

Plus less energy is wasted in heat and noise, so they're miles more efficient, and the motors can be used to slow the car and recharge the battery, saving the brakes from getting as hot. Also with the weight spread better in the car and a less peaky power band, they're kinder on tyres.

Some electric cars can't hot lap consistently, but that's because they've not been developed for track use and thus don't have adequate cooling. But not all. VW's electric race car has been busy smashing track records. Electric cars are just starting to be developed, with money being poured into research and development. So we'll see better batteries and cheaper prices in coming years.

For now, in my price range, the I-Pace and TM3 Performance are the best options, though I need to check the specs and prices of the Polestar.

Sent from my LYA-L09 using Tapatalk


----------



## bigcarpchaser (May 6, 2008)

When I last looked, the Polestar 2 was going to be out next year sometime. Killer looking beast.
You don’t go have to convince me on the cost to run one lol.
It’s the capital outlay and massive depreciation that’s the killer.
As it goes, there’s no premium brand that I’d consider good value new anymore.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## MBRuss (Apr 29, 2011)

bigcarpchaser said:


> When I last looked, the Polestar 2 was going to be out next year sometime. Killer looking beast.
> You don't go have to convince me on the cost to run one lol.
> It's the capital outlay and massive depreciation that's the killer.
> As it goes, there's no premium brand that I'd consider good value new anymore.
> ...


Yeah, that's why I'm leasing them. If you're buying any car new, leasing is the way to do it.

Just had a look at the Polestar. Looks good, but slower than the Tesla and not available until around June.

Looks lovely though and has some killer features, including an Android operating system for the infotainment. Like a glimpse of the future.

Sent from my LYA-L09 using Tapatalk


----------



## Cookies (Dec 10, 2008)

MBRuss said:


> Yeah, that's why I'm leasing them. If you're buying any car new, leasing is the way to do it.
> 
> Just had a look at the Polestar. Looks good, but slower than the Tesla and not available until around June.
> 
> ...


I'm tempted by a lease for my next car. An old friend, who was an accountant, advised me to buy if an asset appreciates, but lease if it depreciated. Perhaps an over simplification but probably good advice.

Must have a look for some lease deals in the coming months.

Cooks

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk


----------



## bigcarpchaser (May 6, 2008)

It depends on the car, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn’t.
I’ve done both. Either way you pay for the depreciation. A higher depreciating car will have bigger monthly rentals.
It pays to get the spreadsheet out and do your sums.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

Cookies said:


> I'm tempted by a lease for my next car. An old friend, who was an accountant, advised me to buy if an asset appreciates, but lease if it depreciated. Perhaps an over simplification but probably good advice.
> 
> Must have a look for some lease deals in the coming months.
> 
> ...


It is too simple. 

The thing with leasing is to get the good deals you need to flexible. If you want a specific model and options leasing doesn't seem to be that good too often.

If you're open to car choice, spec, and can wait to jump on a deal, some amazing deals pop up.


----------



## bigcarpchaser (May 6, 2008)

True but I’m a fussy b’stard 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## MBRuss (Apr 29, 2011)

Cookies said:


> I'm tempted by a lease for my next car. An old friend, who was an accountant, advised me to buy if an asset appreciates, but lease if it depreciated. Perhaps an over simplification but probably good advice.
> 
> Must have a look for some lease deals in the coming months.
> 
> ...


That's exactly how to do it. Somebody I know bought a brand new 7 series BMW a few years ago. Cost around £100k. Two years later and they gave him around £35k in part ex. He could have leased it for way less than that over the two years. Probably less than half the cost of the depreciation alone.

Sent from my LYA-L09 using Tapatalk


----------



## fatdazza (Dec 29, 2010)

Cookies said:


> I'm tempted by a lease for my next car. An old friend, who was an accountant, advised me to buy if an asset appreciates, but lease if it depreciated. Perhaps an over simplification but probably good advice.
> 
> Must have a look for some lease deals in the coming months.
> 
> ...


Did he also say buy shares whose value will rise and sell share whose value will fall? All he was missing was a crystal ball


----------



## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

MBRuss said:


> That's exactly how to do it. Somebody I know bought a brand new 7 series BMW a few years ago. Cost around £100k. Two years later and they gave him around £35k in part ex. He could have leased it for way less than that over the two years. Probably less than half the cost of the depreciation alone.
> 
> Sent from my LYA-L09 using Tapatalk


That would mean the lease company would be absorbing the loses if you are paying less than genuine depreciation.

No company is doing anything for a loss.

I guess the likelihood is the guy never got the proper deal on the car.


----------



## MBRuss (Apr 29, 2011)

Kerr said:


> That would mean the lease company would be absorbing the loses if you are paying less than genuine depreciation.
> 
> No company is doing anything for a loss.
> 
> I guess the likelihood is the guy never got the proper deal on the car.


A lot of times you can lease a car for less than the depreciation. That's what makes it a deal. Sometimes they just don't know how the car will depreciate (especially relevant for new electric cars) and other times there are manufacturer subsidies to get a new model out on the roads.

A while back there were ridiculously low lease deals on the VW Golf R. That's why you see so many of the f*cking things around!

Sent from my LYA-L09 using Tapatalk


----------



## fatdazza (Dec 29, 2010)

MBRuss said:


> That's exactly how to do it. Somebody I know bought a brand new 7 series BMW a few years ago. Cost around £100k. Two years later and they gave him around £35k in part ex. He could have leased it for way less than that over the two years. Probably less than half the cost of the depreciation alone.
> 
> Sent from my LYA-L09 using Tapatalk


Hindsight is a wonderful thing, and we would all be a lot wealthier if we could see into the future. Whether to lease or buy depends on the deal on offer, and your attitude to risk. If you want certainty of costs over a certain period then lease. If you are prepared to take a risk on depreciation etc, then buy.


----------



## fatdazza (Dec 29, 2010)

MBRuss said:


> A lot of times you can lease a car for less than the depreciation. That's what makes it a deal. Sometimes they just don't know how the car will depreciate (especially relevant for new electric cars) and other times there are manufacturer subsidies to get a new model out on the roads.
> 
> A while back there were ridiculously low lease deals on the VW Golf R. That's why you see so many of the f*cking things around!
> 
> Sent from my LYA-L09 using Tapatalk


I so disagree with this. Lease companies have a company number above the door and not charity number. 

Someone bears the risk and the cost of depreciation. The lease company does not aim to subsidise you. They sometimes get it wrong and they take the depreciation hit, but on average if they do this, then they go out of business.

The low lease deals on the Golf R, were there as the lease companies were betting on low depreciation.


----------



## MBRuss (Apr 29, 2011)

There is that, but also other things to take into consideration. If you change your car every 3 years and always buy new then a lease is definitely a much easier way to do things and avoids the hassle of trying to sell on at the end of the term.

If you like to modify your cars or buy used cars then you're likely better off with buying them.

Sometimes car companies do lease deals just to flood the market with their cars. At my last company the sales guy got a new Ford every 3 - 6 months. That way Ford have a decent stock of "nearly new" cars on their forecourts. For the salesman he never had the hassle of servicing, MOTing or even changing tyres, plus he got a brand new car every few months.

Sent from my LYA-L09 using Tapatalk


----------



## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

MBRuss said:


> A lot of times you can lease a car for less than the depreciation. That's what makes it a deal. Sometimes they just don't know how the car will depreciate (especially relevant for new electric cars) and other times there are manufacturer subsidies to get a new model out on the roads.
> 
> A while back there were ridiculously low lease deals on the VW Golf R. That's why you see so many of the f*cking things around!
> 
> Sent from my LYA-L09 using Tapatalk


You can only lease less than depreciation when a manufacturer needs to get rid of old stock or is trying to get their cars on the road.

How would a business survive leasing out cars for less than they depreciate?

PCP deals are setup to factor in depreciation. That's why you get German cars for lower monthly payments than cars that are much cheaper.

Even when German cars have high GFMVs the amount of people that are now VTing is rife.

The Golf R deals were amazing if you wanted the standard car. Those deals haven't been on offer other than when the car was launched years ago.

The PCP deals on the BMW M140i have seen it outsell the Golf R since launch.


----------



## MBRuss (Apr 29, 2011)

fatdazza said:


> I so disagree with this. Lease companies have a company number above the door and not charity number.
> 
> Someone bears the risk and the cost of depreciation. The lease company does not aim to subsidise you. They sometimes get it wrong and they take the depreciation hit, but on average if they do this, then they go out of business.
> 
> The low lease deals on the Golf R, were there as the lease companies were betting on low depreciation.


I'm not saying the lease companies subsidise the lease, but the manufacturers might to push certain cars into the market by offering incentives to the lease companies. And besides, flooding the market with a ton of Golf Rs has the effect of increasing the depreciation, because there are so many to choose from on the market at the end of the 3 year term.

In the case of the earlier mentioned 7 series, a lease would have by far been the cheaper option, and the depreciation on cars like that is pretty easy to determine, because it was just as bad on the previous generation of 7 series and other similar cars.

Sent from my LYA-L09 using Tapatalk


----------



## MBRuss (Apr 29, 2011)

Kerr said:


> You can only lease less than depreciation when a manufacturer needs to get rid of old stock or is trying to get their cars on the road.
> 
> How would a business survive leasing out cars for less than they depreciate?
> 
> ...


Exactly. I'm not saying lease companies are giving them away, but it is possible to lease cars for below the depreciation, for whatever reason. Could be an error in predicting the depreciation by the lease company, could be incentives from the manufacturer, or even incentives from the lease provider. (My car was offered with £1000 cashback just because Lex were trying to get more EVs into their fleet, I guess so they can say they're being green and helping to save the environment.)

Sent from my LYA-L09 using Tapatalk


----------



## fatdazza (Dec 29, 2010)

MBRuss said:


> There is that, but also other things to take into consideration. If you change your car every 3 years and always buy new then a lease is definitely a much easier way to do things and avoids the hassle of trying to sell on at the end of the term.
> 
> If you like to modify your cars or buy used cars then you're likely better off with buying them.
> 
> ...


Lease might be easier, and sorry to bang the drum again, but look above the door of the lease company or car dealer (there is company number )

There will often be cost for "easier" and the customer will be paying for it.

Car companies don't just want to flood the market, they want to make money. They don't want to lose money on lease deals.


----------



## fatdazza (Dec 29, 2010)

MBRuss said:


> Exactly. I'm not saying lease companies are giving them away, but it is possible to lease cars for below the depreciation, for whatever reason. Could be an error in predicting the depreciation by the lease company, could be incentives from the manufacturer, or even incentives from the lease provider. (My car was offered with £1000 cashback just because Lex were trying to get more EVs into their fleet, I guess so they can say they're being green and helping to save the environment.)
> 
> Sent from my LYA-L09 using Tapatalk


There might be some good deals available and some get lucky on depreciation, but if lease companies lose, then they eventually go out of business.

As for the £1k cashback, if you believe Lex are doing this solely for green credentials and taking a £1k hit on cars, then you will be a salesman's dream


----------



## idrobbo (Mar 14, 2018)

OP, just a thought on your battles with JLR, have you got Legal Cover included in your insurance, if so give them a call for advice. Won't cost anything.


----------



## MBRuss (Apr 29, 2011)

fatdazza said:


> There might be some good deals available and some get lucky on depreciation, but if lease companies lose, then they eventually go out of business.
> 
> As for the £1k cashback, if you believe Lex are doing this solely for green credentials and taking a £1k hit on cars, then you will be a salesman's dream


Huh? They're doing it to say they're making their fleet "green".

The incentive applies to any EV from any manufacturer. Lex set aside a million pounds for this. The incentive didn't come from a particular manufacturer.

What do you think they're doing it for?

Sent from my LYA-L09 using Tapatalk


----------



## MBRuss (Apr 29, 2011)

fatdazza said:


> Lease might be easier, and sorry to bang the drum again, but look above the door of the lease company or car dealer (there is company number )
> 
> There will often be cost for "easier" and the customer will be paying for it.
> 
> Car companies don't just want to flood the market, they want to make money. They don't want to lose money on lease deals.


That's all very well, but it doesn't mean you can't lease cars for less than the depreciation. I never suggested that lease companies "give the cars away", I only said that you can sometimes lease for below the cost of depreciation. So repeatedly pointing out that lease companies aren't a charity is somewhat redundant. Unless you're saying it's not possible to ever lease cars for less than their depreciation?

Plus with a lease you're not also paying to borrow money to buy the car. So really if you can lease a car for less than the depreciation and cost of borrowing, then you're a winner.

Anyway, this thread isn't really about lease deals. I'm an active member of HotUKDeals, so I'm well aware of what can and cannot be done with a lease. Plenty of cheap lease deals get posted on there, so cheap lease deals are certainly not uncommon.

Sent from my LYA-L09 using Tapatalk


----------



## MBRuss (Apr 29, 2011)

idrobbo said:


> OP, just a thought on your battles with JLR, have you got Legal Cover included in your insurance, if so give them a call for advice. Won't cost anything.


Not entirely sure, I'll have to check. Thanks for the suggestion. 

Sent from my LYA-L09 using Tapatalk


----------



## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

MBRuss said:


> Plus with a lease you're not also paying to borrow money to buy the car.
> 
> Sent from my LYA-L09 using Tapatalk


It's all factored into the deal. Obviously if the deal was interest free a lease would be instantly thousands of pounds cheaper.

You need to pass a credit check, the lease appears on your credit file and you're liable for the debt if anything goes wrong.


----------



## MBRuss (Apr 29, 2011)

Kerr said:


> It's all factored into the deal. Obviously if the deal was interest free a lease would be instantly thousands of pounds cheaper.
> 
> You need to pass a credit check, the lease appears on your credit file and you're liable for the debt if anything goes wrong.


Unless it's a business lease, as mine is... ;-)

But what I meant is that the lease price is all you pay. Especially true if you also get a serviced lease. Then it's basically just a case of adding fuel.

Anyway, back to topic - this thread has taken a bit of a swerve!

Sent from my LYA-L09 using Tapatalk


----------



## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

MBRuss said:


> Unless it's a business lease, as mine is... ;-)
> 
> But what I meant is that the lease price is all you pay. Especially true if you also get a serviced lease. Then it's basically just a case of adding fuel.
> 
> ...


A lot of man maths going on here. :lol:

A serviced lease costs more than one without maintenance. You're not getting anything for nothing. Most manufacturers offer service plans on cars no matter how you buy the car. It can be added into the monthly payment if financing.

What are the lease company saying about the situation? Will they fight your corner, or they ok with it?


----------



## MBRuss (Apr 29, 2011)

Kerr said:


> A lot of man maths going on here.
> 
> A serviced lease costs more than one without maintenance. You're not getting anything for nothing. Most manufacturers offer service plans on cars no matter how you buy the car. It can be added into the monthly payment if financing.
> 
> What are the lease company saying about the situation? Will they fight your corner, or they ok with it?


Yeah, I know all this - nobody's teaching me anything new! Of course a service plan costs more. I just wanted to mention it before somebody said "you still have to pay for servicing etc!"

As for the lease company - the broker aren't interested, but I have a complaint in with Lex's complaints team. I figure that they have more clout than me with the dealer, so I'm aiming to reject the car entirely, or at the very least get a brand new carpet and full detail/machine polish and respray in the bonnet.

Sent from my LYA-L09 using Tapatalk


----------

