# What makes hard paint hard and soft paint soft?!



## tomlister (Dec 31, 2012)

As above really, 

had a mate spray mini mini's front bumper a few months back and he done an excellent job for me - just was a stop gap until i had the readies to get it done professionally.

Now BMW/Mini paint is known for being hard however, the bumper has been easily chipping with stone chips since its been painted - i thought it may be the case prior to him painting it but it was a stop gap and i was happy knowing this.

My main question is as the tittle suggests, what makes the paint soft? the lack of baking? amount of paint hardener used? or the actual paint that was sourced?


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## Guru (Aug 28, 2013)

It's the proportion of resin and hardener in clearcoat. In 1k, it comes pre-mixed while in 2k you have some control over it.


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## tomlister (Dec 31, 2012)

Guru said:


> It's the proportion of resin and hardener in clearcoat. In 1k, it comes pre-mixed while in 2k you have some control over it.


Sorry to be a noob on this subject but 1K/2K - whats the difference?

Is it the amount of hardener that is standard it the clear coat? and if 2K is used then is it potentially a case of not having enough hardener added?


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## -AndyH- (Oct 11, 2012)

I think the state of our roads play quite a big part in stone chips these days.

The biggest thing that makes a difference is giving yourself more space to the car in front.


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## tomlister (Dec 31, 2012)

-AndyH- said:


> I think the state of our roads play quite a big part in stone chips these days.
> 
> The biggest thing that makes a difference is giving yourself more space to the car in front.


Not really helpful mate?


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## -AndyH- (Oct 11, 2012)

Sorry, I am not trying to be unhelpful - just trying to make an observation.

A lot of new 3/4 series owners have been complaining about the paintwork chipping easily. I think the biggest reason is our roads.


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## tomlister (Dec 31, 2012)

-AndyH- said:


> Sorry, I am not trying to be unhelpful - just trying to make an observation.
> 
> A lot of new 3/4 series owners have been complaining about the paintwork chipping easily. I think the biggest reason is our roads.


Yes, but stone chips have always happened to cars! maybe more so now yes but I do around 500 miles a week so its always going to be an issue for me as it will occur more and show up quicker, the question i asked was that the respray carried out by a friend (new paint) is chipping quicker/easier, and i wanted to know if there was anything in the painting method that could essentially beef up the toughness of the paint as if id of taken it to mini, it wouldn't be as bad right now


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## -AndyH- (Oct 11, 2012)

Have you looked at the 3m Ventureshield? Quite a few people have looked at that.

Here's one of the threads where we've talked about new BMW paintwork and stonechips- http://www.f30post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=957967

I am happy to be corrected by someone - but I don't think you can do much to prevent stone chips (other than putting a shield on the paintwork).


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## fraz101 (Feb 28, 2012)

I'd like to know the "science" behind why for instance BMW/MERC/AUDI clear coats are rock hard and difficult to correct,and japanese clear coats, HONDA etc are soft and easy to correct?


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## tobiasnugent (Jan 29, 2014)

Very good question!


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## Guru (Aug 28, 2013)

fraz101 said:


> I'd like to know the "science" behind why for instance BMW/MERC/AUDI clear coats are rock hard and difficult to correct,and japanese clear coats, HONDA etc are soft and easy to correct?


Not an exact answer to your question maybe, but this can be a useful read -

http://1car-detailing-training.com/pdf/clear-coats-car-detailing-article-by-kevin.pdf


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## blackS2000 (Aug 4, 2010)

I'm sure I read some time ago , on here , that Japanese legislation prevents the use of a couple of components in the" home grown " paint systems that go towards hard clearcoat.
Hence the soft Jap paint syndrome .


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## tomlister (Dec 31, 2012)

-AndyH- said:


> Have you looked at the 3m Ventureshield? Quite a few people have looked at that.
> 
> Here's one of the threads where we've talked about new BMW paintwork and stonechips- http://www.f30post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=957967
> 
> I am happy to be corrected by someone - but I don't think you can do much to prevent stone chips (other than putting a shield on the paintwork).


Mate, I don't mean to be rude but again, that isn't answering my question, I know that can be used to protect the paint but I'm wanting to know what makes soft paint soft and hard paint hard! if you don't know then just say you don't know!!!


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## tomlister (Dec 31, 2012)

blackS2000 said:


> I'm sure I read some time ago , on here , that Japanese legislation prevents the use of a couple of components in the" home grown " paint systems that go towards hard clearcoat.
> Hence the soft Jap paint syndrome .


Cool, any idea then how the paint I got from my local paint mixing company was soft? was it something we done as in not baking enough?


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## -AndyH- (Oct 11, 2012)

tomlister said:


> I'm wanting to know what makes soft paint soft and hard paint hard!


But your answer is in the second post of the thread.

Maybe someone can explain why different manufacturers use different mixes of 2k (clear coat/activator) that gives different hardnesses. If there are any benefits/disadvantages.

Again, I'm happy to be corrected here but I don't think having hard vs soft paint makes a massive difference with stones hitting your car and causing chips.


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## AllenF (Aug 20, 2012)

No it doesnt. The new type of chippings they are using are sharper therefore will cut into sny type of paint..
Get the chips orted nd ventureshield it that is the only way to reasly prevent them attacking the paint


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## muzzer (Feb 13, 2011)

AllenF said:


> No it doesnt. The new type of chippings they are using are sharper therefore will cut into sny type of paint..
> Get the chips orted nd ventureshield it that is the only way to reasly prevent them attacking the paint


Pretty much what i thought, no matter how much hardener or whatnot in your clearcoat, it will get chipped.
AllenF is spot on here :thumb:


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## stuartr (Mar 11, 2014)

It's not the paint but the clearcoat that's harder
If you read the following PDF and go to the clearcoat section it suggests
that the japanese are using:-
1K- Clearcoat Toyota and other Japanese OEM's (Carboxy - Epoxy technology) 
whereas european:-
2K- Clearcoat VW, Audi, Mercedes, BMW (Polyisocyanate crosslinked)

Whether it's driven by VOC standards or costs, don't know

http://www.farbeundlack.de/content/download/263190/6322245/file/01_Kuttler.pdf


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## SteveyG (Apr 1, 2007)

AllenF said:


> No it doesnt. The new type of chippings they are using are sharper therefore will cut into sny type of paint..
> Get the chips orted nd ventureshield it that is the only way to reasly prevent them attacking the paint


Actually it does. Hard paint will always chip more easily as it is more brittle. You will still get hit by stones, but you'll find the stone chips are always much larger on hard paints. Soft paint is a lot more compliant.


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## mr paint (Jul 11, 2009)

Paint build also comes into hardness etc 

if you are getting deep stone chips it maybe that there is too much paint /clear on the item 

You also get different types of clear ... ceramic ...anti scratch etc that must be baked and therefore harder 


its not just the clears tho application of all products from primer to clear must be cured 



Tommy


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## baldynappa (Mar 15, 2014)

BMW and mercedes are using powder coat clear coat on the body shell and this is what you`re calling a hard paint.
Its why it takes some effort to correct compared to a " soft " paint which is just your average every day 2k clearcoat that factories have been using for ever.
Aftermarket paint softness will ultimately depend on cost. The cheapest paint normally from paint factors (paintshop supplies etc), after it has cured has probably lost 60 to 70 % of its wet paint film thickness due to it being watered down with solvents to be sold at a price point, unlike something like Glasurit which will lose about 10% wet film thickness after its cured.
5lt of apple clearcoat including activator £70
5lt of Glasurit clearcoat incluting activator £700
The ability of the paint to stick to the panel is greatly reduced using cheaper paint and this is why you see more stone chips happening when using cheap paint


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## Aaran (Sep 18, 2007)

out if interest which clearcoat of glasurit actually costs £700!?!?!


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## Andyb0127 (Jan 16, 2011)

Aaran said:


> out if interest which clearcoat of glasurit actually costs £700!?!?!


 923-335 HS klarlack, 923-447 klarlack krazfast (ceramic), 923-135 racing clear. These are the ones i used which would most likely be around that price bracket that's for 5ltrs laquer, 5ltrs activator, 5ltrs thinners. We used to have BMW pro-clear aswell which wasn't far of that price bracket either.


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## -AndyH- (Oct 11, 2012)

How many standard size cars would 5l do?


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## baldynappa (Mar 15, 2014)

923-115 clear is around £500 for 5lt
929-33 activator is £300 for 2.5lt
352-216 thinner is around 200 for 5lt
when you work in a busy bodyshop 5lts doesnt last a week
if you come in for an estimate atleast half the cost will be paint and materials costs thats why dealers are expensive because we use the best products which will match and outlast your cars paint warrenty


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## baldynappa (Mar 15, 2014)

-AndyH- said:


> How many standard size cars would 5l do?


full respray ? on a hatchback maybe 3 to 4 at a push


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## Andyb0127 (Jan 16, 2011)

-AndyH- said:


> How many standard size cars would 5l do?


we used to have to paint 10-12 cars per day so 5ltrs wouldnt last long, ok alot was dependant on the size of the paint job. But when your doing that many cars every day you can imagine the volume of laquer we would get through. :thumb:


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## Aaran (Sep 18, 2007)

holy shizz thats mega bucks 0-0 

is it really worth spending that much over a £200 higher end clear?


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## mr paint (Jul 11, 2009)

Aaran said:


> holy shizz thats mega bucks 0-0
> 
> is it really worth spending that much over a £200 higher end clear?


Its worth it for durability ...application of high end clears can be bit more tricky tho !

Altho I have seen jobs I have done with max meyer 0200 4 yrs ago and it still looks like it was just painted !


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## jamie_s (Jul 10, 2009)

mr paint said:


> Its worth it for durability ...application of high end clears can be bit more tricky tho !
> 
> Altho I have seen jobs I have done with max meyer 0200 4 yrs ago and it still looks like it was just painted !


I'm glad you've said that as that's what I'm using atm


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## jamie-france (May 1, 2014)

Mercs where the first to design a ceramic lacqure the other german manufactures folowed. It was designed because in germany you are not allowed to wash your car at home you have to take it too a car wash so they designed a tought ceramic lacqure to prevent scracthes from the car wash


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