# Envy snow foam vs bilt hamber



## joshb (Sep 26, 2010)

Coming to the end of my bilt hamber snowfoam, havent got any problems with it but ive been seeing alot of good things regarding envy. Has anyone had both and can let me know if its worth keeping with bilt hamber or trying envy?


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## Kimo (Jun 7, 2013)

Foams more but doesn't clean as well

If it ain't broke ...


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## salow3 (Mar 8, 2015)

Bilt hambers cleaning ability is hard to beat IMO. I don't think i'll bother trying any other product in that category tbh.


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## joshb (Sep 26, 2010)

What i thought lads nice one for making my mind up haha


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## SmudgerEBT (Sep 24, 2015)

I have both.

Out of the two, BH will be getting restocked, Envy won't.

That's not to say it's a bad product, just that I find the BH works better.


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## Brian1612 (Apr 5, 2015)

Try obsession wax blizzard.


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## Hereisphilly (Nov 17, 2014)

Brian1612 said:


> Try obsession wax blizzard.


^this


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## cheekymonkey (Mar 15, 2008)

Brian1612 said:


> Try obsession wax blizzard.


what other foams have you tried Brian


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## AndyA4TDI (May 7, 2012)

Tried quite a few, switched to BH, simply order more when I run out


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## Kimo (Jun 7, 2013)

Blizzard was good but not great tbh

Yes it's foamy but if I want a more foamy foam I reach for Odk Arctic. Same kind of dilution ratio as obsession but better cleaning power and lovely scent


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## fran1981 (Jul 15, 2014)

Im a huge fan of bilt hamber foam, nothing ive used cleans as well, have got some im trying out at the mo but once they have run out i'll be going back to bilt hamber i think


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## graham1970 (Oct 7, 2012)

What dilution rates are you using for the BH guys?


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## Brian1612 (Apr 5, 2015)

cheekymonkey said:


> what other foams have you tried Brian


Gtechniq, Car Chem, Bilt Hamber, Magnifoam, OCD, AW Fast Foam, KKD Blizzard... there is more but that is just off the top of my head. Prefer Blizzard to all of them and @Kimo isn't Arctic 80ml per wash?


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## great gonzo (Nov 4, 2010)

graham1970 said:


> What dilution rates are you using for the BH guys?


For a snow foam lance it's always about an inch in the bottle then top up the bottle to the top.

I mainly use BH auto foam through a pump sprayer which I use 350ml of product then fill to the 5l mark. I think that's about 8% which is what the instructions says.

Gonz.


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## adjones (Apr 24, 2013)

I don't understand how these comparisons can be fairly made. BH is routinely used at 5 to 10 percent on the paint whilst many of the other products are being used at 10 times more dilute. More than that, autofoam is alkaline and many of those mentioned are neutral. It isn't rocket science that autofoam will clean better. The comparisons would be better made with something like g101 than with high dilution and intentionally mild neutral products.


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## Cy-Zuki (Feb 9, 2015)

watching


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## Bilt-Hamber Lab (Apr 11, 2008)

Merely shifting the pH to the alkaline won't increase cleaning power of other products; and neutral is not necessarily safe... table salt can be added to neutral water and form a pH 7 solution yet will tear a car’s apart in no time at all (beware of salted roads). In fact some our most powerful corrosion inhibitors are deliberately shifted to the alkaline to improve their performance on steel, while paint strippers that we've made include formic acid that works best when the acid is made into a salt and the product is pH7 and will strip automotive paints in seconds. 

Avoid CAUSTIC products these are the ones that will degrade waxes, and dull paint films... auto-foam will not. auto-foam used 4-5% at the panel will provide excellent cleaning even beyond caustic TFR's.


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## Kimo (Jun 7, 2013)

adjones said:


> I don't understand how these comparisons can be fairly made. BH is routinely used at 5 to 10 percent on the paint whilst many of the other products are being used at 10 times more dilute. More than that, autofoam is alkaline and many of those mentioned are neutral. It isn't rocket science that autofoam will clean better. The comparisons would be better made with something like g101 than with high dilution and intentionally mild neutral products.


So you're not happy at a foam being tested against a foam but want to see a foam tested against an apc?

Seems legit


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## Leebo310 (Sep 30, 2013)

I really rate BH, both via a lance or sprayer.
Blizzard is great too though, and amazing value for money given the excellent dilution ratios.
The other one I really rate is Car Chem. 

To be honest,I couldn't really pick a favourite out of those three, they're all very good


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## adjones (Apr 24, 2013)

Bilt-Hamber Lab said:


> Merely shifting the pH to the alkaline won't increase cleaning power of other products; and neutral is not necessarily safe... table salt can be added to neutral water and form a pH 7 solution yet will tear a car's apart in no time at all (beware of salted roads). In fact some our most powerful corrosion inhibitors are deliberately shifted to the alkaline to improve their performance on steel, while paint strippers that we've made include formic acid that works best when the acid is made into a salt and the product is pH7 and will strip automotive paints in seconds.
> 
> Avoid CAUSTIC products these are the ones that will degrade waxes, and dull paint films... auto-foam will not. auto-foam used 4-5% at the panel will provide excellent cleaning even beyond caustic TFR's.


So the lesson in cleaning 101, that elevated pH is more effective than neutral pH, against oily greasy soils is not correct? Could I ask if you are a chemist or a marketing person? Let me guess, methylene chloride paint stripper, paint swelling, acid reacts with metal, hydrogen released which is trapped and thus 'pops' the paint off... 'formate' product don't match the best acid products, not if you care to examine the literature and industry trends. If you are referring to benzyl formate esters then you are conveniently ignoring other rather critical factors. The neutralisation, as you might put it, creates something new which was not previously present (the ester) and you are only doing this process because benzyl alcohol and formic acid are miles cheaper than benzyl formate. This is somewhat mute but I feel that you selected an example for effect but the bigger picture means that the simplified pH relationship is not fair to provide.

I tend to agree about caustics but you might wish to bring this up with an autosmart representative - both ultramousse and actimousse (popular on here) would thus be expected to dull paint. Of course you would never use either of these products at 4-5%, more like 0.5% so perhaps you will acquiesce that this is then less relevant. I suspect that AS would be keen to try your challenge and see if autofoam beats them at comparable dilutions.

Assuming that you are right about the alkalinity, why don't you make autofoam pH neutral? You must realise that ph neutral alone sells products. If the alkalinity really is so irrelevant, lets see autofoam performing the same job, same dilution and made pH neutral. It will prove your point and I think everyone would concur that you will multiply your product sales. Nothing to lose, unless your previous words are made hastily.



Kimo said:


> So you're not happy at a foam being tested against a foam but want to see a foam tested against an apc?
> 
> Seems legit


You do realise that 'foam' or 'apc' are entirely arbitrary? There are no rules to say what is sold as what? There are foams out there which are sold also as APCs. There are foams which are sold as Wheel cleaners. There are spray waxes which are sold as clay lubricants. There are wheel cleaners which are more often known as patio cleaners. What the products is sold 'as' is somewhat irrelevant. You should be comparing products which are physically similar. Otherwise you might as well put Amir Khan into the ring with Wladimir Klitschko then act surprise when one of them ends up in hospital.

There is too much buying into the marketing, marketing is for selling products and it is rarely a good source for making technical comparisons.


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## salow3 (Mar 8, 2015)

adjones said:


> You do realise that 'foam' or 'apc' are entirely arbitrary? There are no rules to say what is sold as what? There are foams out there which are sold also as APCs. There are foams which are sold as Wheel cleaners. There are spray waxes which are sold as clay lubricants. There are wheel cleaners which are more often known as patio cleaners. What the products is sold 'as' is somewhat irrelevant. You should be comparing products which are physically similar. Otherwise you might as well put Amir Khan into the ring with Wladimir Klitschko then act surprise when one of them ends up in hospital.
> 
> There is too much buying into the marketing, marketing is for selling products and it is rarely a good source for making technical comparisons.


Top post :thumb:


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## GleemSpray (Jan 26, 2014)

adjones said:


> I don't understand how these comparisons can be fairly made. BH is routinely used at 5 to 10 percent on the paint whilst many of the other products are being used at 10 times more dilute....< snip >.


I would agree with this part of your argument.

I use BH Autofoam at 4% in a garden sprayer and very good it is. To use any product at 5% via my snowfoam lance, i would need to put in just over 325ml , or about 3" in depth, because my PW foam lance combo puts out 6.5L per minute and takes 500ml out of the lance as part of this.

The much quoted 1" in the bottom of the snowfoam lance bottle equates to 100ml or a dilution of about 65:1 or 1.5% if i then top up to 500ml with water

2" is 240ml ( because the bottle is curved at the base ) which is a dilution of about 27:1 or just over 3.5%

Unless my maths are very wrong


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## cheekymonkey (Mar 15, 2008)

adjones said:


> So the lesson in cleaning 101, that elevated pH is more effective than neutral pH, against oily greasy soils is not correct? *Could I ask if you are a chemist or a marketing person? Let me guess,* methylene chloride paint stripper, paint swelling, acid reacts with metal, hydrogen released which is trapped and thus 'pops' the paint off... 'formate' product don't match the best acid products, not if you care to examine the literature and industry trends. If you are referring to benzyl formate esters then you are conveniently ignoring other rather critical factors. The neutralisation, as you might put it, creates something new which was not previously present (the ester) and you are only doing this process because benzyl alcohol and formic acid are miles cheaper than benzyl formate. This is somewhat mute but I feel that you selected an example for effect but the bigger picture means that the simplified pH relationship is not fair to provide.
> 
> I tend to agree about caustics but you might wish to bring this up with an autosmart representative - both ultramousse and actimousse (popular on here) would thus be expected to dull paint. Of course you would never use either of these products at 4-5%, more like 0.5% so perhaps you will acquiesce that this is then less relevant. I suspect that AS would be keen to try your challenge and see if autofoam beats them at comparable dilutions.
> 
> ...


you'r at it again, someone has a different view to you and you go all childish and start picking at them. If you dont like people having a different view to you, then dont bother adding yours.
Are you a chemist


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## cheekymonkey (Mar 15, 2008)

adjones said:


> So the lesson in cleaning 101, that elevated pH is more effective than neutral pH, against oily greasy soils is not correct? Could I ask if you are a chemist or a marketing person? Let me guess, methylene chloride paint stripper, paint swelling, acid reacts with metal, hydrogen released which is trapped and thus 'pops' the paint off... 'formate' product don't match the best acid products, not if you care to examine the literature and industry trends. If you are referring to benzyl formate esters then you are conveniently ignoring other rather critical factors. The neutralisation, as you might put it, creates something new which was not previously present (the ester) and you are only doing this process because benzyl alcohol and formic acid are miles cheaper than benzyl formate. This is somewhat mute but I feel that you selected an example for effect but the bigger picture means that the simplified pH relationship is not fair to provide.
> 
> I tend to agree about caustics but you might wish to bring this up with an autosmart representative - both ultramousse and actimousse (popular on here) would thus be expected to dull paint. Of course you would never use either of these products at 4-5%, more like 0.5% so perhaps you will acquiesce that this is then less relevant. I suspect that AS would be keen to try your challenge and see if autofoam beats them at comparable dilutions.
> 
> ...


So If that's the case why your original complaint? snow foam v errrr snow foam:wall:


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## cheekymonkey (Mar 15, 2008)

adjones said:


> There are wheel cleaners which are more often known as patio cleaners.
> 
> thats because they use the same base chemical, many products that are labeled as a certain type of cleaner can be used to clean something else because of the base chemical.
> What it doesn,t mean is they are the same. A good patio cleaner will have some different ingredients to a good acid wheel cleaner


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## Bilt-Hamber Lab (Apr 11, 2008)

So the lesson in cleaning 101, that elevated pH is more effective than neutral pH, against oily greasy soils is not correct? Could I ask if you are a chemist or a marketing person? 

Of course you can ask… I formulate all of our products. Out of interest what do you do, and who for?

Let me guess, methylene chloride paint stripper, paint swelling, acid reacts with metal, hydrogen released which is trapped and thus 'pops' the paint off... 

No your choice of chemicals is poor and not suitable for retail sale paint stripper, nor is it very effective.

'formate' product don't match the best acid products... 

Yeap they can and in fact I have some that exceed them.


Not if you care to examine the literature and industry trends. 

This is the problem; following trends and literature leads to too many me-too products. Worse still it perpetuates the nonsense about, for example, the pH of cleaning products and chasing a “neutral” product for marketing purposes. Reminds me of when Mercury was used to treat constipation – it’s what the literature said at the time to do. The well-read doctors of the time would have had a Terminator 2 posteriors to talk out of too.


If you are referring to benzyl formate esters then you are conveniently ignoring other rather critical factors. The neutralisation, as you might put it, creates something new which was not previously present (the ester) and you are only doing this process because benzyl alcohol and formic acid are miles cheaper than benzyl formate. This is somewhat mute but I feel that you selected an example for effect but the bigger picture means that the simplified pH relationship is not fair to provide. 

Your whole thrust was that the pH of auto-foam v neutral products made it not fair but that was frankly, if I may say, facile as the complex nature of making a really good cleaner is far more involved than shifting the pH as well you know.

I tend to agree about caustics but you might wish to bring this up with an autosmart representative - both ultramousse and actimousse (popular on here) would thus be expected to dull paint. 

As you agree you can do as you wish.

Of course you would never use either of these products at 4-5%, more like 0.5% so perhaps you will acquiesce that this is then less relevant. I suspect that AS would be keen to try your challenge and see if autofoam beats them at comparable dilutions.

Even done any black-box testing? Give it a whirl

Assuming that you are right about the alkalinity, why don't you make autofoam pH neutral? You must realise that ph neutral alone sells products. If the alkalinity really is so irrelevant, lets see autofoam performing the same job, same dilution and made pH neutral. It will prove your point and I think everyone would concur that you will multiply your product sales. Nothing to lose, unless your previous words are made hastily.

Our product works perfectly, we make it as concentrated as possible and that requires an alkaline pH.. I would like to make it more concentrated but it’s sadly not possible to balance it. What I would like to see you prove unequivocally is that a pH 7 cleaner is any safer than auto-foam on automotive paint but you can’t do that.


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## GleemSpray (Jan 26, 2014)

I have two questions about Autofoam,if I can ask:

Is it more effective mixed under pressure via a foam lance? That is, does the bubbles and foam add anything to it's cleaning ability or is it simply to help it cling ?

Also, I notice that Surfex ( which is also an excellent product !) actually foams up reasonably well - is Autofoam essentially a foamier version of Surfex ? Can they be safely mixed ?


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## Bilt-Hamber Lab (Apr 11, 2008)

GleemSpray said:


> I have two questions about Autofoam,if I can ask:
> 
> Is it more effective mixed under pressure via a foam lance? That is, does the bubbles and foam add anything to it's cleaning ability or is it simply to help it cling ?
> 
> Also, I notice that Surfex ( which is also an excellent product !) actually foams up reasonably well - is Autofoam essentially a foamier version of Surfex ? Can they be safely mixed ?


Applying through a lance makes the job easier, the bubbles of a snow foam need to collapse quickly so that the actives in the bubble shell can contact the soil and wet it, the bubbles do give a visual indication of coverage though.

Applying auto-foam using hot water is best method (pump sprayer good for this) and the cloud point is reached making the surfactants very eager to get to work, then as the liquid is cooled by the panel the soil is held by the surfactants more efficiently when cold. Leave the panels wet with the product for 5 mins where conditions allow then rinse using cold water under pressure.

Surfex is more powerful against grease and oil but will work in the same way.


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## adjones (Apr 24, 2013)

cheekymonkey said:


> you'r at it again, someone has a different view to you and you go all childish and start picking at them. If you dont like people having a different view to you, then dont bother adding yours.
> Are you a chemist


This forum is all about people having different views and expressing them. Mostly people rely solely upon what the brand tells them and rarely ever think that they might not have the whole truth.

What I am is irrelevant as I have no forum affiliation and, I suspect, the forum owners would not approve of someone advertising themselves without paying. What I can say is that, over the past few years, I have become somewhat immersed in this industry sector.



cheekymonkey said:


> adjones said:
> 
> 
> > There are wheel cleaners which are more often known as patio cleaners.
> ...


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## Bilt-Hamber Lab (Apr 11, 2008)

adjones said:


> This forum is all about people having different views and expressing them. Mostly people rely solely upon what the brand tells them and rarely ever think that they might not have the whole truth.
> 
> What I am is irrelevant as I have no forum affiliation and, I suspect, the forum owners would not approve of someone advertising themselves without paying. What I can say is that, over the past few years, I have become somewhat immersed in this industry sector.
> 
> ...


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## Kimo (Jun 7, 2013)

Angelwax come on and make posts quite openly without being a sponsor so just say where your from

Or maybe he doesn't want to as all he does is want to argue with every person on here cos he's the best ever, but knows that arguing on every thread doesn't look professional ...


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## cheekymonkey (Mar 15, 2008)

adjones said:


> This forum is all about people having different views and expressing them. Mostly people rely solely upon what the brand tells them and rarely ever think that they might not have the whole truth.
> 
> What I am is irrelevant as I have no forum affiliation and, I suspect, the forum owners would not approve of someone advertising themselves without paying. What I can say is that, over the past few years, I have become somewhat immersed in this industry sector.
> 
> ...


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## GleemSpray (Jan 26, 2014)

adjones said:


> What I am is irrelevant as I have no forum affiliation and, I suspect, the forum owners would not approve of someone advertising themselves without paying. What I can say is that, over the past few years, I have become somewhat immersed in this industry sector.


In this instance it isn't irrelevant, as you have more than once demanded to know specifically what people do, how they are qualified to make statements and where they are in the industry.

So you arn't really in a position to by coy with this one - you need to either put up or shut up.

You are clearly an intelligent guy, but you do provoke people unnecessarily.

A bit of simple logic would tell you that Bilt-Hamber could not possibly amass as many praise for their products as they have, from so many different sources ( and so many purchasers ) if it was all marketing hype and re-bottled "other stuff".


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## montymondeo (Jan 2, 2010)

GleemSpray said:


> So you arn't really in a position to by coy with this one - *you need to either put up or shut up.*
> 
> You are clearly an intelligent guy, but you do provoke people unnecessarily.
> 
> A bit of simple logic would tell you that Bilt-Hamber could not possibly amass as many praise for their products as they have, from so many different sources ( and so many purchasers ) if it was all marketing hype and re-bottled "other stuff".


Well said :thumb:


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## mwad (Mar 4, 2011)

montymondeo said:


> Well said :thumb:


Agreed


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## leehob (Jul 9, 2014)

Blimey!! I just bung 200ml of BH foam in the lance bottle, blast it on and off, cleans lovely :lol:


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## cossiecol (Jun 29, 2014)

Let try to keep this on topic please as I can see it slipping with some of the previous posts.


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