# Removing orange peel...



## Loko (Aug 24, 2010)

Hi there,

I know the best method of removing orange peel is to wet sand the clear coat to achieve a flat finish and then polish out the sanding scratches.

However, I'm not sure how thick the clear coat on my Porsche is and I don't want to remove the UV protection by thinning it too much.

Consequently, is it actually possible to use a filling type approach to build up layers of product on the cleat coat and hence achieve a flat finish removing the orange peel that way?

Thanks for your help!


----------



## stangalang (Nov 27, 2009)

Look towards glare products. I am not saying what you desire is or is not possible, but this is the product line that suggests you can :thumb:


----------



## Elliott19864 (May 11, 2008)

I think there's a product out there that actually does this. Can't remember the name though.


----------



## OrangePeel (Feb 19, 2007)

I was under the impression that the only sure fire way of dealing with Orange Peel was wet sanding... Having said that, I also respond well to a light supper, some dancing and a glass or two of a nice red...


----------



## Loko (Aug 24, 2010)

Well on the basis that orange peel is effectively peaks and troughs in the clear coat, surely the logic follows that you can fill these with enough passes and patience. :buffer:

Without spraying more clear coat on there's not much option if it's thin.

Anybody have any experience of this?

I might end up biting the bullet and spending mega money on a several day correction!! :wall:


----------



## Mirror Finish Details (Aug 21, 2008)

UV protection is throughout the clear so removing 10-15Um is never a problem, I do it every day of the week. A car is only cleard once at the factory, they don't apply a seperate UV coating.

Removed over 25Um on a Range Rover last week to get the finish to the customers satisfaction. Customer does not care, he gets a new Rangey every year on lease and pays me a fair wad of money to make his car perfect.

Just removing more clear removes more UV protection.


----------



## stangalang (Nov 27, 2009)

OrangePeel said:


> I was under the impression that the only sure fire way of dealing with Orange Peel was wet sanding... Having said that, I also respond well to a light supper, some dancing and a glass or two of a nice red...


How long have you been waiting to say that. I think you rushed it :lol:


----------



## OrangePeel (Feb 19, 2007)

stangalang said:


> How long have you been waiting to say that. I think you rushed it :lol:


You got me... Just the 4 years...


----------



## Mirror Finish Details (Aug 21, 2008)

CupraElliott said:


> I think there's a product out there that actually does this. Can't remember the name though.


Yes wet paper, compounding paint is useless, onlky wet sanding will remove it.


----------



## Loko (Aug 24, 2010)

What kind of money are we talking to do an entire Boxster then?


----------



## Mirror Finish Details (Aug 21, 2008)

Loko said:


> Hi there,
> 
> I know the best method of removing orange peel is to wet sand the clear coat to achieve a flat finish and then polish out the sanding scratches.
> 
> ...


You need a pro to read the paint or buy a paint gauge. But in reality the only way is wet sanding it out. Compounding will not remove it.


----------



## CraigQQ (Jan 20, 2011)

listen to steve.. hes very knowledgeable here..

compounding doesnt remove orange peel as the pad and polish follow the peaks and troughs of the orange peel.

where the sanding on takes of the peaks.

the glare products do claim to work, and there is a aussie detailer here. user id dream machines who likes glare(well most of it) and uses it regularly with great results.


----------



## Elliott19864 (May 11, 2008)

Mirror Finish said:


> Yes wet paper, compounding paint is useless, onlky wet sanding will remove it.


Ah that old chestnut, used that myself a few times.

But I have honestly heard of a product used on here that does fill and even out the surface.


----------



## Black Magic Detail (Aug 17, 2010)

glare advance is the filler and glare zero is the one that is used to remove orange peel by making the clear softer for compounding out the orange peel.i have read mixed results


----------



## RaskyR1 (Jan 6, 2009)

Mirror Finish said:


> *UV protection is throughout the clear so removing 10-15Um is never a problem, I do it every day of the week. A car is only cleard once at the factory, they don't apply a seperate UV coating.
> *
> Removed over 25Um on a Range Rover last week to get the finish to the customers satisfaction. Customer does not care, he gets a new Rangey every year on lease and pays me a fair wad of money to make his car perfect.
> 
> Just removing more clear removes more UV protection.


While I personally think what you said is true, or at least it makes sense to me, I've seen various post that would suggest otherwsie.

Regardless, I will only wet sand non-OEM finishes where adequate clear has been applied unless the owner is well aware of the risks involved. 

Like this one.
http://meguiarsonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=50192

Rasky


----------



## CraigQQ (Jan 20, 2011)

thats like saying you wont polish OEM finishes...
compounding can remove 10-15microns after polishing and refining..

i believe steve has done testing where sanding removed less clear than compounding..


----------



## RaskyR1 (Jan 6, 2009)

CraigQQ said:


> *thats like saying you wont polish OEM finishes...*
> compounding can remove 10-15microns after polishing and refining..
> 
> i believe steve has done testing where sanding removed less clear than compounding..


That may be taking it out of context a little. I'm not saying I agree with what Jon posted, but it's some food for thought.

Removing 10-15 microns compounding and polishing you'd have to be compounding some fairly soft paint with a very aggressive pad/compound and maybe multiple passes to remove that much paint.

Joe did a great write up on paint removal a while back too
http://meguiarsonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4013

As far as sanding removing less clear than polishing I don't really know, to many variables...but the goal is to level the finish to the lowest point of the defects so how you get there really shouldn't matter I would think, no?

Cheers,
Rasky


----------



## Mirror Finish Details (Aug 21, 2008)

CraigQQ said:


> thats like saying you wont polish OEM finishes...
> compounding can remove 10-15microns after polishing and refining..
> 
> i believe steve has done testing where sanding removed less clear than compounding..


I sure have.

Ford Focus rear wings.

Drivers side 142um. Compounded, Polished and finsihed 129um left so 13um removed. Still orange peel. Took nearlly an hour.

Passenger side 143um. Wet sanded 2000 and 4000 girt and polished out. 134um left so 9um removed but a totally flat orange peel finish. Took 25 minutes.

So a big time saving as well.

Easier to flat OEM paint than a re spary job.


----------



## RaskyR1 (Jan 6, 2009)

Mirror Finish said:


> I sure have.
> 
> Ford Focus rear wings.
> 
> ...


Depends on the paint really. OEM paints are fully cured and typically harder, where as a repaint at the body shop would still be curing and if sanding and polished right away it's much, much easier than OEM paint. A skilled painter can also leave a much smoother finish than what most OEM cars come with from the factory.

Now fully cured OEM paint vs. fully cured repaint would come down to the clear used and how well the catalyst were mixed.

I've wet sanded old repaints that were butter soft like this Corvette.
http://www.autopia.org/forum/pro-de...ling-66-corvette-427-425hp-wet-sand-buff.html

And I've also wet sanded repaints that were rock hard like this Impala
http://www.autopia.org/forum/pro-de...full-wet-sand-buff-raskys-auto-detailing.html

I typically won't sand OEM paint as it's just not worth the risk in *most* cases. You remove precious amounts of clear coat and you leave little paint on the car for future corrections....and unless they are OCD about car care like most of us then it will need some amount of correction later on.

With these new coatings on the market I am interested to see how well they would protect the paint. A good test would be to thoroughly wet-sand a horizontal panel completely level. Then coat only half that panel and leave it out in the elements for an extended period of time...damn I may just have to try that one! 

Anyway, just my $.02 

Cheers,
Rasky


----------



## Mirror Finish Details (Aug 21, 2008)

RaskyR1 said:


> Depends on the paint really. OEM paints are fully cured and typically harder, where as a repaint at the body shop would still be curing and if sanding and polished right away it's much, much easier than OEM paint. A skilled painter can also leave a much smoother finish than what most OEM cars come with from the factory.
> 
> Now fully cured OEM paint vs. fully cured repaint would come down to the clear used and how well the catalyst were mixed.
> 
> ...


I know what you are saying. But if there is a miracle product on the market for this, then why is there not a miracle product for covering swirl marks??


----------



## RaskyR1 (Jan 6, 2009)

Mirror Finish said:


> I know what you are saying. But if there is a miracle product on the market for this, then why is there not a miracle product for covering swirl marks??


I don't believe there is a miracle product on the market for orange peel removal. Wet sanding is the only way IMO, so I agree with you there 100%.

I was basically saying that these new coatings like Opti-Coat, GTechniq C1, CQuartz...which are claiming to have excellent UV protection, could possible be used to add the UV protection back to the paint that the wet sanding previously removed. That is if they proved to be effective. I would be much more willing to sand OEM paint then.


----------



## Mirror Finish Details (Aug 21, 2008)

RaskyR1 said:


> I don't believe there is a miracle product on the market for orange peel removal. Wet sanding is the only way IMO, so I agree with you there 100%.
> 
> I was basically saying that these new coatings like Opti-Coat, GTechniq C1, CQuartz...which are claiming to have excellent UV protection, could possible be used to add the UV protection back to the paint that the wet sanding previously removed. That is if they proved to be effective. I would be much more willing to sand OEM paint then.


A friend of mine works for Bentley in Crewe in the paint shop. Over the odd pint in the local we chat about paint. Now Bentley do take it to the extreme and apply over 200um of clear then remove at least half of it in the finishing shop. Mainly to remove orange peel as all water based paints will dry with orange peel in them.

However, they are owned by VW and use the standard VW clear. The UV filters are all the way through the clear, they are not sprayed in seperate layers.

So even if you remove as I did recently 25um clear from a car with 100um clear on it there is still 75um of clear with UV protecters in it. I could have taken more off as well if needed. From reading and research a car only needs 40um of clear to still offer protection from UV damage.


----------



## RaskyR1 (Jan 6, 2009)

Mirror Finish said:


> A friend of mine works for Bentley in Crewe in the paint shop. Over the odd pint in the local we chat about paint. Now Bentley do take it to the extreme and apply over 200um of clear then remove at least half of it in the finishing shop. Mainly to remove orange peel as all water based paints will dry with orange peel in them.
> 
> However, they are owned by VW and use the standard VW clear. The UV filters are all the way through the clear, they are not sprayed in seperate layers.
> 
> So even if you remove as I did recently 25um clear from a car with 100um clear on it there is still 75um of clear with UV protecters in it. I could have taken more off as well if needed. From reading and research a car only needs 40um of clear to still offer protection from UV damage.


Man your buddy's a lucky guy...I'd love to visit a place like that!

A friend of mine has a contact that is a factory rep for PPG CeramiClear. It would be interesting to see what he has to say about the quote from Jon below and if there is in fact any truth to it.

I'll keep you posted when and if I hear back.



TOGWT said:


> Paint Surface Protection
> 
> • *The clear coat, provides gloss plus physical protection from the elements, including ultraviolet (UV) radiation, which is in the upper 1.0 - 1. 25µ layer of the clear coat paint.. Removing more that 12.5µ (0.5 mil) of clear coat will precipitate premature paint film failure as the ultra violet (UV) protection percolates to the top of the clear coat, there is ultra violet (UV) protection all the way through the paint, but the majority of it migrates to the top of the clear coat along with the thinner solvents and particles.
> Dependent on reflective value of the paint colour; surface reflection will provide some UV radiation protection along with some sacrificial protection as the wax or polymers oxidize
> ...


----------



## tomfun (Jun 7, 2011)

I wondered how orange peel is caused,i say this because i just had my first go with a rotary polisher to remove some minor swirls, i was only using lime prime and tried a bit of p1 but on the pads that came with the silverline polisher which i believe are only good for polishing a turd !!

I had a closer look this morning and can see a slight orange peel on the bonnet ,i just wondered if it`s something i have done or would it have been there all along?


----------



## franki0083 (Aug 3, 2010)

I would like to know what uv can do to the paint if there is no uv protection( or less protection) ?


----------



## DagenhamGeoff (Mar 20, 2011)

franki0083 said:


> I would like to know what uv can do to the paint if there is no uv protection( or less protection) ?


Severe oxidation springs to mind


----------



## Titus A Duxass (Apr 6, 2011)

Orange peel is usually the result of poor spraying and not something that you have done.
If your bonnet has orange peel then it's probably been there all the time.


----------



## franki0083 (Aug 3, 2010)

just wondering how old is your Porsche and did you ever polish your car?


----------



## CraigQQ (Jan 20, 2011)

im pretty sure everyone here has seen what UV does to paint unprotected...
ever see a red car thats went pink?
then youve seen what uv does with no clear coat :thumb:


----------



## Jordan (Dec 22, 2008)

CraigQQ said:


> im pretty sure everyone here has seen what UV does to paint unprotected...
> ever see a red car thats went pink?
> then youve seen what uv does with no clear coat :thumb:


you ever seen a milano pink type R or a ovni Cream cupra?

thats what poor clear coat does aswell :lol:


----------



## CraigQQ (Jan 20, 2011)

:lol: thats even worse.. as im guessing you cant just polish it out.. as you would need to remove the oxidised colour under the clear :wall: :lol:


----------



## RaskyR1 (Jan 6, 2009)

Mirror Finish said:


> UV protection is throughout the clear so removing 10-15Um is never a problem, I do it every day of the week. A car is only cleard once at the factory, they don't apply a seperate UV coating.
> 
> Removed over 25Um on a Range Rover last week to get the finish to the customers satisfaction. Customer does not care, he gets a new Rangey every year on lease and pays me a fair wad of money to make his car perfect.
> 
> Just removing more clear removes more UV protection.


So I got a reply back from Dr. G of Optimum Polymer Technologies, Inc. on the subject, which you can read below. I'm still waiting on the reply from the PPG rep and will post his comments when I receive them. 

Good info though! :thumb:



> Chad,
> 
> UV absorbers are distributed throughout the clearcoat paint. They are not just on the top 1-2 microns. The main effect of the UV absorbers is to block UV light from oxidizing the pigments and colorants. Removing more than 0.2 mils can cause clearcoat failure, not because of the removal of UV absorbers, but because most factory clears only have 1.5 mils of clearcoat (to reduce paint costs) which is just over the minimum film thickness for the paint to be stable. With refinish paint where there is more clearcoat, you can sand and polish more paint off without any issues.
> 
> ...


----------

