# Our input



## Refined Reflections (May 12, 2006)

I realise that this has sort of been covered but I'll post this in our section as I know admin and mods read here and maybe we can discuss matters like grown ups without heavy handed treatment or upsetting the pc brigade

I've not been posting show off's for a couple of weeks now due to the fact I'm not going to edit/omit pics that may or may not include my van. And I was proven right today after hearing that someones post was edited by a mod on the advertising grounds. I also know this is hopefully now in hand and being sorted.

BUT

I want some open clarification on all of this. I'll put my thoughts in and lets see where it goes.

Yes I'm a business and yes I have had a few jobs from DW which I have earned money, but so are many others not just pro's. I want to be able to post pics without having to take 2 lots, spend ages editing them or uploading multiple copies for different sites.

In return for me getting some work, having my company name as my user name I give my time answering posts, giving advice on and off the site to members even meeting some and giving lessons.

This i think is a fair swap for both sides. 

So what's your thoughts, inputs including admin/mods


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## Paul-T (Nov 2, 2006)

Maybe I am wrong, but I thought it considered two criteria in order to post pics that could be considered advertising. Either a paid up member (clear cut), or someone who has significantly contributed to the site and its members.

That being the case, I would consider you to qualify, as I would Iain (who's Scooby thread is the one I am guessing you are refering to).


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## WHIZZER (Oct 25, 2005)

The rule was put into place to protect you chaps !!! there was an influx of people added there .co.uk names to pics etc ...so i wanted to jump on it straight away it.....as we knwo there is a lot of the PC Boys out there ....

You all have your names as your business i.e Refined reflections i also know that you have the website .co.uk .....As we have said to iain its fine to have Finer Details on his plates just omit the .co.uk ...the chaps know you are pros from the work you do. 

We are trying to be as consistent as possible otherwise we will be inundated with welll such and such can but i cant .....

Chaps happy to listen to your thoughts to overcome this one .....


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## Paul-T (Nov 2, 2006)

Just slap 'em down like an old toilet seat Bill.


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## L200 Steve (Oct 25, 2005)

I must admit it's getting a bit tiresome, and I can understand why Iain gets frustrated for his van shot, yet show it off's have been up for a couple of days showing .co.uk photo's before any action is taken.

I purposefully dont do any advertising of any sort, as I don't have a need.

But....

Can we have a paid for 'commercial' Show It Off section, a subscription type thing. Anyone and everyone could post their .co.uk type pics, same as they do spamming other sites, yet Detailing World takes a revenue from it.

Make it clear that DW no way endorses the workmanship of the advertisers showing off their details, in the same way that no one would hold Detailing World responsible if the tub of wax that they bought off a trader wasn't the product that they thought it was.

This way, people like Gary and Iain can show off their work, without hours of editing.
The PC brigade can impress us and be able to advertise their services.
Detailing World can gain some revenue.
Detailing World can reward certain members (Gary and / or Iain etc) for their pro perspective additions to this board by waiving any such fee.

I'm aware that as DW grows, the Mods are going to have to speed up their trigger fingers in shooting down certain posts. I do feel that the input from certain pro's on this board though goes some way to assisting the blend and quality of most posts. It'd be a shame to see certain individuals alienated, especially the ones that have contributed so much to this forum.


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## dw0510 (Oct 22, 2006)

Nice post Steve.


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## Brazo (Oct 27, 2005)

Steve that is a good post and one that has been tried before - it was however the money element which put off people from doing it. 

And regarding other posts with co.uk plates etc please let us know once you have seen them, we are at least quick to react to pm's even if we can't/don't read every show it off post :thumb:


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## Johnnyopolis (Oct 25, 2005)

L200 Steve said:


> I must admit it's getting a bit tiresome, and I can understand why Iain gets frustrated for his van shot, yet show it off's have been up for a couple of days showing .co.uk photo's before any action is taken.
> 
> I purposefully dont do any advertising of any sort, as I don't have a need.
> 
> ...


I think you have got a great idea going on there and one that the pro's can only be happy with. I too can see people like Gary and Ian getting frustrated  the trouble being that I dont think you can have one rule for one and one for another on DW. The mods have their work cut out for them sometimes!

I believe by doing it in a separate section would also have a bit more emphasis on the companies doing the detail too which is a good thing.

By having the section as a subscription section it would mean that the like of 13 year old nightmare would be free to advertise his detail my ride business and of course any of the other pc brigade who have a site etc.

A few things that spring to mind to me are:

1) How much do you charge? I think £5 a month paid a year in advance is a reasonable amount. Actually that should maybe be £50 a year? Where else would you get advertising for that for a small amount. I know I pay tyresmoke over £150 a month just to have a signature and a banner that pops up every now and again.

2) What do you call it? I think that the person who comes up with the name should get there years subscription for free :thumb:

3) I think if someone commits to a subscription then another benefit could be that DW could change there name to their business name. thoughts?

Hope my thoughts help :wave:

Best Regards,

Johnny


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## L200 Steve (Oct 25, 2005)

^^^

Spot on John, spot on.


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## Johnnyopolis (Oct 25, 2005)

L200 Steve said:


> ^^^
> 
> Spot on John, spot on.


And the star prize to L200 Steve...... what would you name it......


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## L200 Steve (Oct 25, 2005)

Johnnyopolis said:


> And the star prize to L200 Steve...... what would you name it......


Seeing as how you have already named this section - The Business, it's only fair that you name the new section -

The Professionals

:thumb:


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## Brazo (Oct 27, 2005)

Good name and great idea :thumb:

Any thoughts (from anyone) on the definition of professional as this has caused problems before regarding weekend detailers, part time detailers, full time detailers and highly skilled amateurs etc. Hence why we changed the name from pro section to the business


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## L200 Steve (Oct 25, 2005)

Thinking about it, I might feel a little happier posting stuff like this -










(I did a "Y" reg Fiesta hidden behind the Silver range rover that night ) in this new section rather than in the Show It Off. I kind of prefer posting my weekend work only at the moment.

The showroom stuff is all a little too business orientated, but I feel would go nicely in the new section. I could start taking the camera back to the dealership on a night again:thumb:


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## WHIZZER (Oct 25, 2005)

L200 Steve said:


> I must admit it's getting a bit tiresome, and I can understand why Iain gets frustrated for his van shot, yet show it off's have been up for a couple of days showing .co.uk photo's before any action is taken.
> 
> I purposefully dont do any advertising of any sort, as I don't have a need.
> 
> ...





Johnnyopolis said:


> I think you have got a great idea going on there and one that the pro's can only be happy with. I too can see people like Gary and Ian getting frustrated  the trouble being that I dont think you can have one rule for one and one for another on DW. The mods have their work cut out for them sometimes!
> 
> I believe by doing it in a separate section would also have a bit more emphasis on the companies doing the detail too which is a good thing.
> 
> ...


Well chaps this seems to be a well laid plan.... I like the idea a seperate show it off section for the commercial /business person ....

So any more input from anyone else


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## mba (Jun 17, 2006)

Im picked up on a comment by WHIZZER i think that you can post piccies of your business on # plates but omit the .com or .co.uk even if i did that with mine you only gotta put Derbyshire Detailers in Google and im the first hit - not bragging just pointing it out

This is in no way adding to the constructive nature of this thread but i gotta say it....

That white ferrari is facking sweet!


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## WHIZZER (Oct 25, 2005)

Thats was so i dont upset you lot but it still doesnt cover the van issue and if this goes through which seems like a really good idea to me , then any advertising in the normal section will be deleted completely


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## Refined Reflections (May 12, 2006)

I'd happily pay £50 a year to be able to post/signature/self promote.

I agree a separate section, one that's totally open to all to read, members and non members alike. Not so much a show off where we do a full write up of processes/products as these are only really valid and useful to those who know what we are talking about. Rather maybe a simple chart showing polish, sealant, glaze, LSP etc.

As for a how about... DW affiliates? DW Crew? 

Entry could be via current members vetting, simple criterias like a proper business, tax registered, insured (PL or more), old enough to vote  etc


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## WHIZZER (Oct 25, 2005)

Right will try and work on this ...

I think we could have one section with sub section but not sure if that would be to complicated ....



Refined Reflections said:


> Entry could be via current members vetting, simple criterias like a proper business, tax registered, insured (PL or more), old enough to vote  etc


Gary i think this bit might be hard to administrate.

so we have The Professional ,DW affiliates, DW Crew.


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## L200 Steve (Oct 25, 2005)

Refined Reflections said:


> one that's totally open to all to read, members and non members alike.


Could you add it to the few sections that you don't have to join Detailing World to view?

Benefits of this would be that interested owners could see their work without having to sign up, in the first instance.

I think that this would also be a good selling point of the section to the 'pros', as not all of them will have web sites etc, and DW is a good place to host your portfolio in.

I'd like to think that most users of this section would raise thir write up's to emulate the quality ones people like Clark & Rich etc do every detail. I'd like to think that 'their' professionalism extended through not only in the quality of the work, but also in the detail of the threads.

I agree with Johnny on that the area should be a place for people like 13YON to push Detail My Ride etc. It should become a breeding ground for some good pro and semi pro detailers.

Most of all though, it should provide an amicable solution to the problems of people advertising their business on DW, with one rule that should not only please everyone affected but that is also a very easy rule to moderate.


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## dw0510 (Oct 22, 2006)

Yeah sound like a good idea but by paying to advertise in a section where everyone has a business to me would be a waste of time. And only people who want to advertise are going to pay to view the section. So I cant see I would get any custom out of it! I would prefer to take pictures of a car I detailed without my van in the back ground and just cover up the customers number plates with some 3434 tape and post in the show it off section now. The majority (90%) do their own cars anyway.


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## Brazo (Oct 27, 2005)

^^Thomas everyone else would see it and could reply but only those 'pros' could start threads


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## dw0510 (Oct 22, 2006)

oh i seeeeeeeeeeeee   thats ok then.


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## Finerdetails (Apr 30, 2006)

Hi Guys

been out working for last few days so just catching up.

I like the idea of the Pro show it off section with 100% readable rights for everyone.

As for definition - the pros should be those who are signed into the Business section - same members so its consistent with what you already have. The Business section already houses this user group if my understanding is right?

As Gary says, if this is going to be a 'pro show it off' then I too would be happy to pay towards that costs and ensure my posts can be written in line with what I am - a professional detailer.


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## WHIZZER (Oct 25, 2005)

Iain hopefully only pros / commercial detailers / valeters will be in the section as the subscription will stop the normal chaps posting in there....

It will have 100% viewable right


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## Finerdetails (Apr 30, 2006)

Tha sounds good Bill

Can you change my name please from YG to FinerDetails also please?

TIA


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## WHIZZER (Oct 25, 2005)

yep ill sort that for you


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## Brazo (Oct 27, 2005)

Chaps I will be formulating some rules over the weekend so if you have any thoughts please let me know


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## L200 Steve (Oct 25, 2005)

What ever rules you come up with Mark, can we try and keep the main part of DW as the 'Car Care for enthusiast's forum' that it was devised as, and try and keep certain topics in the business section?


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## Brazo (Oct 27, 2005)

Yes it will be two distinct functions

even to the point of a pro detailing their own car is really enthusiast rather than business, we don't want lots of www.newbiedetailing.co.uk vs my car threads :lol:


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## Refined Reflections (May 12, 2006)

I've just had a thought, on the pro area/section.

How are you going to manage the areas covered? will it be a case of any who qualify are accepted? Just if you have several in the same area then I can see that even with paying and posting it will water down the effect being recognised will have, it could even start a price war to get work.


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## Brazo (Oct 27, 2005)

Gary it won't be our place to 'manage' workloads/the market etc if an entrant is a pro and matches the qualifying criteria etc then whether they live in norfolk or next door to me in Swindon they are accepted!

The criteria will be tough however :thumb:


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## Refined Reflections (May 12, 2006)

OK, worth asking as I can see it may get to the point where some may feel paying to post here is not worth it as their area is over loaded already, and especially until DW can actively help market and promote everyone as well as the site I still don't see it being a great source of work.

I'm still good for it as personally I don't care what the loading of areas is as I'll work on anyones door step


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## L200 Steve (Oct 25, 2005)

I can see it having a positive effect on the detailing market, actually increasing sales using the adage "you can't saturate a market"

It'll soon become known that if you want a detail carried out on your vehicle, to view the Professionals on Detailing World, as that should be where all the Pro Detailers hang out.

Yes there will always be people who will work fro bottom dollar, but won't these soon be found out. I know that a lot of my private work wouldn't entertain someone who charges £80 for a detail when the going rate is £???. I'm quite sure that the £80 guy's would much rather be working for what we charge, the only people who stop them is themselves. 

One only has to look at the traders on DW, who are all able to maintain a good business through selling similar products at a similar price. There is no obvious undercutting of product going on there, and people get to choose which supplier to use on quality of service.

I still get a lot of enquiries from people who have seen Polish Bliss's work on other forums, yet come to us because Aberdeen is too far for them to travel. 

I can see the Professional section having a huge impact in the trade for most. If it does prove to be a bad judgement though on behalf of the forums owners, then I guess we can just go back to where we are now. It's a web forum after all, not bricks and mortar.


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## Johnnyopolis (Oct 25, 2005)

Heres what I think....

The idea of having a section that is a subscription section is much like the yellow pages. You guys and others all want to show your company details as well as contact details there is business to be had off of detailing world as we all know. There are other less qualified people who also want to earn a crust up till recently this has been fine, but there is now a lot of people who seem to want a "free lunch" courtesy of this forum. Dont get me wrong but as I have said before as a retailer I am made to pay in one way shape or form to show details of my company on any forum that I go on on the internet as I am a commercial entitiy. Just out of interest do you guys who post your details on tyresmoke pay for this? 

You will have a number of people in the same area who do work. Now some of those people will not be as proficient as others and some people will be booked up for 2 months in advance (much like a plumber when you need one!!) The purpose of the section as I see it is so that if someone wants to use Detailing World as a vehicle to advertise their business then they can. 

My own personal view is that if 13 YOD and Finer Details were in the same area and in the new section then the person viewing has the choice of both. If Finer Details is booked solid for 2 months and the guy who wants his car done is going to a wedding in a month and 13YOD is available it gives him the chance to contact both and get his car done then that to me means the guys has got someone off detailing world and hasnt just started going through the Yellow Pages looking for a valeter. Also lets face who actually stays in there own area? All of you guys travel and you will go where the work is.... If a guy has an enzo on the south coast and your based in Norwich and he says I want YOU to do it your not gonna say no are you?

I think you pay your money and you can show your Van/Plates/Signature. You dont and you cant. I dont think you will get many newbies with pc's prepared to spend the £50 when they see the level of the work that you guys will be posting. 

Well that little lot should be something to talk about. 

Im off for some lemon squash and a pack of cheesy wotsits. 

Adios.

Johnny


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## Paul-T (Nov 2, 2006)

I think thats a fair comment Johnny. Have a look at your pm's when you get a minute too!

I would certainly be happy to pay to subscribe to this section, and therefore be able to show my work as my company identity, rather than just the loveable Reggie Hollis.


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## Brazo (Oct 27, 2005)

Wise words from John and Steve

I would also like to add, perhaps remind people off the conception of DW back in late 2005 as an enthusiasts forum, don't get me wrong the input of the pros on here is great and adds to the rich content but firstlyu and foremost this is about enthusiasts. 

Gary, as for not seeing the point of posting and not getting enough work from DW, thats not what this is all about, its not a guaranteed line of work for people, certaintly not for £50!!!!!

All this stared off as people wanted to advertise on here through pics of their vans, plates and signatures etc. If DW is not a good place to gain work (which i disagree with imo) then why do all the detailers want to advertise?????

It has to be simple to mod. £50 gets you a sig listing and the ability to post in the pro section and carefully tender for work - rules to be ascertained. 

At this moment in time Gary I am half tempted to pay your £50 myself just to make my life easier!!!!!

Anyway my new cars on my drive and it needs some serious paintwork attention. So I am off to do what I enjoy - caring for and being enthusiastic about my own motor


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## Refined Reflections (May 12, 2006)

Brazo said:


> At this moment in time Gary I am half tempted to pay your £50 myself just to make my life easier!!!!!


Cheers mate, i'll remember to add you to my christmas card list for doing that for me 

Actually as I've said many times before I have no problem with paying the £50, what I was trying to do was look at it from all angles.


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## Dave KG (Feb 23, 2006)

I haven't yet posted in this thread but have been watching it with interest...

As you all know, I am not a pro detailer in the sense that I do not own a business (and at the present time, I do not plan to as I'm already working near 80 hours a week on my PhD, infact I'm in the office right now!!), however I do do some details on cars other than my own and I do enjoy posting these in the Show It Off section along with as full a write up as I can... Now, if there were to be a pro-only detailing section I would rather like to post up in that section primarily because I would like my work to be judged at the same level as the professionals on the site as I personally feel it is of the quality to be judged in that way - I would certainly be up for paying the £50 just for that alone. 

I do not wish to advertise myself as a detailer, I get just as much from demming the PC to folk as I do from doing my own full-out paint correction details, and I'm quite happy just doing the odd car here and there as a hobbyist. But it would be nice, as said above, to be judged alongside the pros, and critiqued with the pros... Yes, this is just my hobby, but I take pride in work I do (ask my supervisor for Physics, he'll tell you I'm OCD in all walks of life! :lol: ) and want to see it lined up alongside the best on the forum. 

I would like to emphasise what has been said before about the original aims of this forum - its a forum for enthusiasts, and in that is what I have always been treating it as... I do, as do many of the pros here, spend a lot of time helping others who post for help and I hope that everyone who already does this will continue to do so as for me, thats what Detailing World is about...

However, I also am noticing as has been pointed out that there is an increasing number of folks who have just bought a PC and are very quickly advertising there services to others on the forum as being able to fully detail a car - now we all know the amount of skill that goes into a thorough detail, there is a lot more to it than many realise. I guess this is something that I would like to see any "Pro Show It Off" address - known quality deatilers can post up thorough details of their work and clearly highlight (for example) the quality of defect correction achieved and it would very quickly highlight the quality of work that many here can achieve in a section which stands out above the normal Show It Off which is diluted with many quick and simple wash and wax style details - now that's not a bad thing, its what this forum is all about and long may folk feel comfortable posting these types of details, but with the recent influx if the "PC Brigade", I do feel that a separate section for the DW Crew to post thorough details in would go down well.... I personally would like to see my own details in such a section and would be more than willing to pay the £50 (small amount, lets face it, thats a tank fuel) to see my details posted up along with the pros on the forum.


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## Paul-T (Nov 2, 2006)

I think it would be good to see the proper correction work (which rightly or wrongly, in my mind is proper detailing) shown seperately. Like you say Dave, its not necessarily a bad thing if people want to show off their clean cars, but a quick wash and pictures that do nothing but show it passes the '5 foot test' are hardly a major achievment in my mind. Thats not meant to sound *****y or condesending - although it probably does because I can't think of a better way to put it, and in this section I don't think I need to, I reckon you'll get the jist!


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## 182_Blue (Oct 25, 2005)

I think maybe a separate section for paint correction type threads is a good idea


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## Refined Reflections (May 12, 2006)

I have to disagree about defect removal is real/proper detailing, its just one part of the whole business.

If you had an Enzo to do but no machining would you want to still class it as detailing?

Also if there is to be a pro show off I would rather just one area than several as it would be hit or miss as to which got viewed, and if this is going to be to promote businesses then its better to have just one show off area and maybe another with a list of where everyone is. Maybe have a requirement that pro's totally fill their profiles inc proper locations etc


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## Paul-T (Nov 2, 2006)

Fair comment Gary. I guess I'm not entirely clear of a definition in my own head, but I didn't mean that detailing is exclusively defect removal - I think it is still entirely accurate to call the cleaning/dressing/waxing of a car detailing.

But I still don't think 'a quick wash of my mum's corsa' is, and that what I was getting at. But thats just my opinion.


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## Johnnyopolis (Oct 25, 2005)

Indeed. I have been asked to detail a 911 Porsche in the next couple of weeks as the owner is selling it. What he doesnt want though is paintwork correction because he is selling it. What he does want is it "detailed" because he believes that that will make it sell better. So I am with you Gary on the whole if its not machine polished its not detailed scenario. 

I think we should have one section called "Wax Central" or "Wax Capital" or "Detailed Perfection" something like that underneath the current show it off with a description of what the section is about. Everyone who wishes to go in there pays and off they go 

Johnny


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## Johnnyopolis (Oct 25, 2005)

Reg Hollis said:


> But I still don't think 'a quick wash of my mum's corsa' is, and that what I was getting at. But thats just my opinion.


Know what you mean and I dont think those kinda people will want to pay £50 to show em off..! Unless they are particurly flush.


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## Dave KG (Feb 23, 2006)

Refined Reflections said:


> I have to disagree about defect removal is real/proper detailing, its just one part of the whole business.
> 
> If you had an Enzo to do but no machining would you want to still class it as detailing?
> 
> Also if there is to be a pro show off I would rather just one area than several as it would be hit or miss as to which got viewed, and if this is going to be to promote businesses then its better to have just one show off area and maybe another with a list of where everyone is. Maybe have a requirement that pro's totally fill their profiles inc proper locations etc


Yes, thats very true - defect correction is just one part of the detailing process, thats only carried out if needed or requested. Lets face it, how many of us spend hours doing all the "little jobs" - trim, dust out of the panel gaps etc etc which is just as important as the "bigger" jobs... No point in perfect paint if the second you open the door, you see polish splatter right down the inside...


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## Brazo (Oct 27, 2005)

Some good comments guys and hey Gary your comment above I agree with :thumb:

I wouldn't want it to be too complicated though and personally feel that 2 sections one pro and one amateur would be easier to understand. 

Thats not to say one would be better than the other but it makes advertising so much easier to mod from our end.


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## WHIZZER (Oct 25, 2005)

Johnnyopolis said:


> Indeed. I have been asked to detail a 911 Porsche in the next couple of weeks as the owner is selling it. What he doesnt want though is paintwork correction because he is selling it. What he does want is it "detailed" because he believes that that will make it sell better. So I am with you Gary on the whole if its not machine polished its not detailed scenario.
> 
> I think we should have one section called "Wax Central" or "Wax Capital" or "Detailed Perfection" something like that underneath the current show it off with a description of what the section is about. Everyone who wishes to go in there pays and off they go
> 
> Johnny


nice idea


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## L200 Steve (Oct 25, 2005)

All of the above sounds 'nice' if just a little complicated.

I thought that the idea of the second section was to assist the admin of this site with the moderation of the 'spam boys?' To prevent the Show it off section from being flooded with free advertising.

Surely a single rule - The show it off of advertising material to be restricted to one section where you need to subscribe to start threads. Whether it was a full defect removal or just a wash 'n go, doesn't matter, they all go into the same paid for section.

This must make the mods task just that little easier, and stop the upset of those who have been affected by censorship (and hence this thread.)


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## WHIZZER (Oct 25, 2005)

I would like to get this set asap.... So can we just list a few rules that you think might help Brazo out ...and i will try and get it added asap ..

Thanks for all those that inputed


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## Angela @ PB (Jan 3, 2007)

L200 Steve said:


> All of the above sounds 'nice' if just a little complicated.
> 
> I thought that the idea of the second section was to assist the admin of this site with the moderation of the 'spam boys?' To prevent the Show it off section from being flooded with free advertising.
> 
> ...


I would have to agree with you Steve, that this seems to be the easiest thing to do, otherwise it all gets a bit complicated and the mods will have a lot more to do.

Also, the question that comes up time and again is how do you decide who is a professional detailer? I do not think it would be acceptable for anyone person or group of people to decide that they are suitable judges of other people's work, that is a whole can of worms you do not want to open. :doublesho

Have a section where you can advertise and that you have to pay to be able to add threads, simple as! There can be no arguments, and nobody is deciding if someone else is good enough.

Just my tuppence worth!


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## Refined Reflections (May 12, 2006)

I fully understand where DW came from and how its target user is defined however its also moved on, DW is now a business, its earning money and as such it does need to evolve and grow to meet all the needs where possible

My only concern of it being open to those who are willing to pay the price is it then open to anyone, rather than keeping it a pro/business area which is what I understood it was going to be.

Lets face it £50 over a year is a quid a week and almost anyone inc. Gaz could and probably would pay it, let alone quite a few who only do it part time (not a dig at those already in here as you in my eyes are Pro's) but doing it part time as a side line does not in my eyes make a pro, earning or not.

Not really sure how it should be sorted but personally as a business, which is what this area and thread is about I want to distance myself somewhat from the hobby crowd, rather than just having a case of pays your money and take a spot.


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## Refined Reflections (May 12, 2006)

Here I go post whoring and proud of it 

Some ideas

Pay as you show, £30 a quarter or £100 a year (payment via paypal, cheque whatever), maybe a reduction in charges if 'Business approved/reading this'

Pro's those viewed as suitable for this area, allowed to have a business banner/url link, also have a 'DW Pro' or 'DW Recommended Pro' title under their user name.

Picture sizes limited to 480x320, unless classed as Pro then pic size of 600x480, pics can still be click to enlarge so no loss in quality, thou will also reduce used bandwidth  Admin/mods can soon tell if pic size is right for user classification, if there isn't a way of setting size within the forum coding

Still feel limited numbers within this area is better than anything, and at least some form of area/zones so as/when DW can promote this side of the industry then enquiries can be forwarded to the closest person/business. Like wise passing work between ourselves if its not something we want to travel for (again repeated yep an Enzo I may travel for but a 320 may not)

Food/ideas for thought?


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## WHIZZER (Oct 25, 2005)

Gary,

hows about this then 

The pros fit a criteria Public liabilty insurance /tax number /website get as above a recommended dw pro title / logo.... and larger pics, sig link and a reduced rate of subscription...

The other (pc poys/ hobbyist) get the smaller pics and pay a higher rate to subscribe ....

Perhaps limiting the hobbyist to a number .......


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## Refined Reflections (May 12, 2006)

Sounds good to me, lets see what the others think (runs for cover )


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## Angela @ PB (Jan 3, 2007)

Refined Reflections said:


> Lets face it £50 over a year is a quid a week and almost anyone inc. Gaz could and probably would pay it, let alone quite a few who only do it part time (not a dig at those already in here as you in my eyes are Pro's) but doing it part time as a side line does not in my eyes make a pro, earning or not.


What you have said here is the problem with having a 'pro show it off' area! You have said - 'but doing it part time as a side line does not in my eyes make a pro, earning or not' that includes Dave KG, but in the same paragraph you have said - 'not a dig at those already in here as you in my eyes are Pro's' this also includes Dave KG.

 I am not having a go at you, but am trying to prove my earlier point - which was it is far too complicated and contentious to have rules for who qualifies as a professional detailer.

It makes sense to have one rule - pay your dues! Make them higher than £50. Quite rightly you have said this is too low at £1 per week, my 4 year old could afford that over a year!!


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## Refined Reflections (May 12, 2006)

There are in my eyes different levels of being a Pro, off topic but please bare with me.

Until 18 months ago I was very heavily into archery, national team etc, until 2000 I was classed technically as an amatur, I earnt no money however I was doing R&D work for several international archery manufacturers (all unpaid) however this work gave me Pro status in my peers eyes, after 2000 I started earning money from the sport as the IOC (International Olympic Committee) changed the rules on earnings so I became a Pro in the terms of earnings.

So there is a place where a pro can be a pro or even not a pro (never said life was easy) 

My point is, if we as businesses are paying for something then there has to be something in return for it, DW doesn't just allow any trader who can afford to pay the traders rate to advertise here, there are guidelines etc, and all I'm asking is the same sort of things are done for the Pro's. Just posting our pictures in the mist of all the hobby guys and gals means they lose impact and so aren't working for us.

I understand that rules on what makes a pro is hard but I feel its something that does need doing, else how do people get into this area? David G is not a pro detailer and no offence but neither are you (both retailers), so do we open this area to everyone?


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## Angela @ PB (Jan 3, 2007)

Refined Reflections said:


> There are in my eyes different levels of being a Pro, off topic but please bare with me.
> 
> Until 18 months ago I was very heavily into archery, national team etc, until 2000 I was classed technically as an amatur, I earnt no money however I was doing R&D work for several international archery manufacturers (all unpaid) however this work gave me Pro status in my peers eyes, after 2000 I started earning money from the sport as the IOC (International Olympic Committee) changed the rules on earnings so I became a Pro in the terms of earnings.
> 
> ...


I would just point out that we are in fact professional detailers as well as retailers, so much so that I employ a full time detailer who has nothing whatsoever to do with the retail side of the business. And there in again proves my point. If the DW team agrees to your suggestion then they will do as they see fit. I am just trying to point out that it can cause problems and offence. Just as I am a little put out that you suggested Polished Bliss aren't profesional detailers!


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## Rich @ PB (Oct 26, 2005)

Just read all of this thread for the first time. I totally see the point of having two distinct show it off sections. The purpose of one should be to allow enthusiasts to show off their work (i.e. the original purpose of the show it off section). The purpose of the other should be to allow 'professionals' to show off their work, for advertising purposes (presuming that Detailing World is a good place to advertise, another discussion entirely). Seeing as deciding on what counts as a professional is highly contentious, and virtually impossible to reslove to everyone's satisfaction, I would recommend resorting to the one thing that makes the world go round. Money. Steve hit the nail on the head; keep it simple, easy to moderate, and quit allowing people an easy ride. I say charge *at least £600 *a year to be in the section. At a minimum of £50 a month, those who detail a lot and gain a lot of work from the forum will easily recover their costs, but those who don't won't want in. To be honest, £50 a year is a joke in my opinion, given that you'd only have to do one detail (arising from being on the forum) to make this back.

Folk like DaveKG who class themselves as enthusiasts but who want to be judged against 'professionals' will still gain the recognition they deserve on the forum, as I'm sure most people would browse both sections. Remember that this new section is designed to dissuade freeloading, not to set work apart in terms of quality. Don't forget the original reason for wanting the new section!


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## Dave KG (Feb 23, 2006)

WX51 TXR said:


> Just read all of this thread for the first time. I totally see the point of having two distinct show it off sections. The purpose of one should be to allow enthusiasts to show off their work (i.e. the original purpose of the show it off section). The purpose of the other should be to allow 'professionals' to show off their work, for advertising purposes (presuming that Detailing World is a good place to advertise, another discussion entirely). Seeing as deciding on what counts as a professional is highly contentious, and virtually impossible to reslove to everyone's satisfaction, I would recommend resorting to the one thing that makes the world go round. Money. Steve hit the nail on the head; keep it simple, easy to moderate, and quit allowing people an easy ride. I say charge *at least £600 *a year to be in the section. At a minimum of £50 a month, those who detail a lot and gain a lot of work from the forum will easily recover their costs, but those who don't won't want in. To be honest, £50 a year is a joke in my opinion, given that you'd only have to do one detail (arising from being on the forum) to make this back.
> 
> Folk like DaveKG who class themselves as enthusiasts but who want to be judged against 'professionals' will still gain the recognition they deserve on the forum, as I'm sure most people would browse both sections. Remember that this new section is designed to dissuade freeloading, not to set work apart in terms of quality. Don't forget the original reason for wanting the new section!


While I takes these points as fair comment, the introduction of an additional section will inevitably turn sections, in many people's eyes (whether this be right or wrong) into a pro and ammeture section and difference's in the judging levels will arise from this... its human nature to judge things in this way, I see it all the time in dance depending on the competitions enterred for example, or in my line of work where I am judged differently depending on which journal I am publishing in - I'm sure you're aware of this as well Rich. Now, the is only a loose, perhaps tenuous link, but its similarities are there and folk will judge the two sections differently...

The £600 is a fair price here I would suggest for pure advertising purposes, as that's about ten details in a year and you've covered it... People like me however are instantly priced out of the section, and priced into what may by many folk be regarded as a "lower" version of Show It Off... Not saying that is what it is, but in my experience from other walks of life, that is how it will be viewed by many.

Just my thoughts...


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## Refined Reflections (May 12, 2006)

Mrs Bliss said:


> I would just point out that we are in fact professional detailers as well as retailers, so much so that I employ a full time detailer who has nothing whatsoever to do with the retail side of the business. And there in again proves my point. If the DW team agrees to your suggestion then they will do as they see fit. I am just trying to point out that it can cause problems and offence. Just as I am a little put out that you suggested Polished Bliss aren't profesional detailers!


Sorry my comment about you not being a detailer wasn't worded quite right, I wasn't in anyway implying Polished Bliss aren't professional, rather and I stand to be corrected but you personally as an individual aren't a detailer.



WX51 TXR said:


> Just read all of this thread for the first time. I totally see the point of having two distinct show it off sections. The purpose of one should be to allow enthusiasts to show off their work (i.e. the original purpose of the show it off section). The purpose of the other should be to allow 'professionals' to show off their work, for advertising purposes (presuming that Detailing World is a good place to advertise, another discussion entirely). Seeing as deciding on what counts as a professional is highly contentious, and virtually impossible to reslove to everyone's satisfaction, I would recommend resorting to the one thing that makes the world go round. Money. Steve hit the nail on the head; keep it simple, easy to moderate, and quit allowing people an easy ride. I say charge *at least £600 *a year to be in the section. At a minimum of £50 a month, those who detail a lot and gain a lot of work from the forum will easily recover their costs, but those who don't won't want in. To be honest, £50 a year is a joke in my opinion, given that you'd only have to do one detail (arising from being on the forum) to make this back.
> 
> Folk like DaveKG who class themselves as enthusiasts but who want to be judged against 'professionals' will still gain the recognition they deserve on the forum, as I'm sure most people would browse both sections. Remember that this new section is designed to dissuade freeloading, not to set work apart in terms of quality. Don't forget the original reason for wanting the new section!


Totally agree there mate, make it £600 a year, that makes it a lot easier I'll just stop posting as there is no way I'm willing to spend 50% of any income I have earned from this site on posting, and if I earn more than £1200 a year from here I'll be happy. Maybe I should start selling products on here as that is where the real money is made, sales not service.

*And just to clarify no offence intended to any one business or individual*


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## Brazo (Oct 27, 2005)

It needs to be simple in my mind two sections a pro and an am. 

Pic sizes would imo be too hard to regulate as all we would be doing is resizing pics and that ain't fun

I don't think there is a problem regarding pic sizes at present. 

As for the comments on part time pros then thats me Gary as I do it part time but still pay tax etc. The difference is all my work is paint correction :wave:


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## Johnnyopolis (Oct 25, 2005)

Maybe we shouldnt call it a "pro" section?


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## Paul-T (Nov 2, 2006)

On that note Brazo, re-reading this thread I really didn't mean to come across as the detailing IS ONLY defect correction, I didn't mean that at all.

But anyway, I think £600 is too much. I still can't see that DW would generate enough direct business to justify paying that (but then it was never designed to, so why should it?)

As per my post in the thread in the Off Topic section that Eddie Irvine chap has launched straight into, I think DW is raising the profile of detailing amongst car enthusiasts, and so all detailers will benefit from it - whether they post here or not. How much business could be generated directly from posts here is I think negligable. As someone doing it as a business, I certainly don't mind putting in to help pay for this forum, and as Gary says, seperate myself from the 'overnight brigade', but if we are getting down to figures, £600 is way too much, in my opinion.


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## Autovogue (Oct 1, 2006)

i have to agree, £600 is a lot of money to spend on what is basically advertising, bearing in mind what DW is about, it is like paying to advertise as a plumber in the plumbing aisle in B&Q. i would be happy to pay a more realistic amount to help fund the forum.


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## Brazo (Oct 27, 2005)

Yep £600 is a tad steep, bearing in mind you guys (and me!) will be paying it what is a more sensible price?


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## Autovogue (Oct 1, 2006)

a sensible price would be proportional to how much work you expect or get from the forum. If i gained 2 or 3 jobs per year directly from DW as it is now with no payment then i would be happy, but as a business any amount paid, would have to be an investment, and make something like 10 times the amount you put in.


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## Angela @ PB (Jan 3, 2007)

Refined Reflections said:


> Sorry my comment about you not being a detailer wasn't worded quite right, I wasn't in anyway implying Polished Bliss aren't professional, rather and I stand to be corrected but you personally as an individual aren't a detailer.
> 
> 
> > Fair enough, I am here as a partner in Polished Bliss though! If it was a personal choice I would not be talking about cleaning cars!


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## Brazo (Oct 27, 2005)

baz said:


> a sensible price would be proportional to how much work you expect or get from the forum. If i gained 2 or 3 jobs per year directly from DW as it is now with no payment then i would be happy, but as a business any amount paid, would have to be an investment, and make something like 10 times the amount you put in.


Thats difficult to clarify and prove from either side though mate, it needs to be an easy flat fee:thumb:


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## Paul-T (Nov 2, 2006)

You sound like my wife now!


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## WHIZZER (Oct 25, 2005)

Right chaps and chappettes thanks for the input , if we can leave it at that i will re read thru and reflect on this over the next couple of days and discuss this with boys and come back to you


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## PD1981 (Nov 19, 2005)

Only just read this thread and think it could be a great idea if done right.

I would think a smaller fee to test the water to start with would be a good idea £300 - £400(IMO). See how it goes and then increase the price as necessary ?

I for one would be interested at the right price :thumb: 

Simon


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