# Engine Braking



## alan_mcc (Oct 28, 2008)

Yay? Nay?

I do it, just had a lot of varied opinions about whether it's a good thing or not. Was always taught not to do it in driving lessons. 

What does everyone think?


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## T.D.K (Mar 16, 2011)

I was always told a new set of brakes is a lot cheaper than a new gearbox.

I honestly don't know.


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## The Cueball (Feb 8, 2007)

engine to go and slow, brakes to stop.... when I am in a... ahem... hurry :devil:

slipper clutches in new bikes are designed for this... :thumb:

advanced driving teaches 'block' downshifts, so brake, then move from 5th to 2nd (for example) 

:thumb:


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## alan_mcc (Oct 28, 2008)

Yeah did the whole 'block' changing, do it while going up the gears too to try and conserve a bit of fuel.


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## Trip tdi (Sep 3, 2008)

alan_mcc said:


> Yeah did the whole 'block' changing, do it while going up the gears too to try and conserve a bit of fuel.


Sounds like economical driving Alan, i don't blame you, the price of fuel is shot well past in the year, its to much money now.


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## The Cueball (Feb 8, 2007)

alan_mcc said:


> Yeah did the whole 'block' changing, do it while going up the gears too to try and conserve a bit of fuel.


I have an issue with the whole 'save fuel' stuff... not with you.. but with the Eco cars that are teaching people to sit in top gear even though the engine is labouring... not only is this dangerous, but it actually uses more fuel... :wall:

I would never block change going up the way though....

:thumb:


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## Bowden769 (Feb 21, 2011)

i change 3rd to 5th quite regularly tbh and vice verser


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## hoikey (Mar 9, 2011)

I use engine braking alot, won't do your gearbox much harm if done properly to be honest.


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## alan_mcc (Oct 28, 2008)

Like bowden said usually 3rd to 5th.

I struggle to get 40mpg from a 1.1 8v, modern diesels with 3 times the power of my car can get more economy!


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## pooma (Apr 12, 2008)

Always come down through the box for slowing, means if all of a sudden I'm going again then I'm in the right gear at the right time.


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## The Cueball (Feb 8, 2007)

alan_mcc said:


> Like bowden said usually 3rd to 5th.
> 
> I struggle to get 40mpg from a 1.1 8v, modern diesels with 3 times the power of my car can get more economy!


stop your greetin' man.. I struggle to get 10mpg, so ram it... :devil:

:driver::driver::driver:


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## Deano (Jul 7, 2006)

IAM teaches gears to go, brakes to slow the theory being that brake pads are cheaper than gearboxes. not saying anyones wrong to do it. just saying.


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## Trip tdi (Sep 3, 2008)

Alan has your car had a full service buddie, the oil, the filters, the rocker gasket cover, i know the plugs have been changed...


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## Trip tdi (Sep 3, 2008)

40 mpg is low for a 1.1 engine, its eating to much fuel.


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## Bowden769 (Feb 21, 2011)

alan_mcc said:


> Like bowden said usually 3rd to 5th.
> 
> I struggle to get 40mpg from a 1.1 8v, modern diesels with 3 times the power of my car can get more economy!


i was taught to use 3rd/4th in a 30, when leaving to go into a 60 go 3rd to 5th (after giving it some 'welly')(my driving instructor word not mine :lol: )


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## CraigQQ (Jan 20, 2011)

The Cueball said:


> I have an issue with the whole 'save fuel' stuff... not with you.. but with the Eco cars that are teaching people to sit in top gear even though the engine is labouring... not only is this dangerous, but it actually uses more fuel... :wall:
> 
> I would never block change going up the way though....
> 
> :thumb:


have to agree.. I always block change on way down, but not on way up.. just the way i was taught.

and the eco car thing.. I have a gear change indicator in my car... and I tested this ages ago when i got the car..
its quite happy to let the engine labour for a good minute or so before telling you to change down, its supposed to be in eco mode lol..(until you put the foot down, then it changes to sport mode and tells you when to change about 300rpm before redline.. and the car still hasn't gone anywhere its that slow hahaha!!)

I get about 30mpg mixed driving. (not intentionally trying to save fuel, got to the point where I ignore all the computer bits and just drive the damn thing depending on the road/traffic and speed limit.. not the economy meter)


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## alan_mcc (Oct 28, 2008)

Oil, filters, plugs, and rocker cover gasket have been done. It runs off a carb which I'm sure aren't regarded for being particularly economical.


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## Derekh929 (Aug 28, 2011)

I think it depends on the car and needs to be done correct making sure you match the revs for down shift but maybe ok for race driver but in normal driving unless driving hard normal braking would be fine, sometimes with lower power you are using the engine harder to get up to speed than bigger engine not under load that can keep set speed changing up and down at best revs for power will save good 10 to 15% at pumps all be it boring in a cooper s


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## bigmc (Mar 22, 2010)

Bowden769 said:


> i was taught to use 3rd/4th in a 30, when leaving to go into a 60 go 3rd to 5th (after giving it some 'welly')(my driving instructor word not mine :lol: )


Most newer cars are struggling at 30 in 4th tbh, mine is just about the point the pilot injection changes over so you can feel it slugging along.
I block change down occasionally, mainly though I'll drop through the gears as I'm braking as I tend to anticipate the road conditions.


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## alan_mcc (Oct 28, 2008)

I have to floor it to get up to speed within a reasonable time.. it's a joke. It's quick 0-30 but 30-60 is slow as. Good point derek.

I sit in 4th at 30 usually through the town.


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## McClane (Dec 9, 2010)

Deano said:


> IAM teaches gears to go, brakes to slow the theory being that brake pads are cheaper than gearboxes. not saying anyones wrong to do it. just saying.


That (i.e block downshifts), and brake-gear overlap (or lack of), were the only parts of road craft I disagreed with. I would like to do a proper course with an IAM instructor to see if in practice I'm wrong. Ever since reading it, I do wonder if I'm damaging my gearbox/clutch.

Fully prepared to be wrong, I bought RoadCraft to challenge myself/habits. Old ones die hard however. :wall:


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## Derekh929 (Aug 28, 2011)

alan_mcc said:


> I have to floor it to get up to speed within a reasonable time.. it's a joke. It's quick 0-30 but 30-60 is slow as. Good point derek.
> 
> I sit in 4th at 30 usually through the town.


Insurance is the big problem my nephew is 17 and struggling to get any car insured at sain cost even 1.1 i have a 3ltr diesel and i can get 50mpg if i do all the smooth driving and changing up at best torque point but on average 36 to 38 mpg at push on normal driving me with the 36 and the wife the 38 due to my right foot being slightly heaver than left coman problem.


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## bigmc (Mar 22, 2010)

McClane said:


> That (i.e block downshifts), and brake-gear overlap (or lack of), were the only parts of road craft I disagreed with. I would like to do a proper course with an IAM instructor to see if in practice I'm wrong. Ever since reading it, I do wonder if I'm damaging my gearbox/clutch.
> 
> Fully prepared to be wrong, I bought RoadCraft to challenge myself/habits. Old ones die hard however. :wall:


It won't damage your 'box any more than dropping from 5th to 3rd to floor it past something. How many people who advocat block changing down the gear box have tried stamping from 6th to 1st on a bike in one hit?


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## The Cueball (Feb 8, 2007)

I had a real hard time with my IAM instructor...

part of it was I was using a stupid impreza turbo, which couldn't downshift 'nicely' for it's life... he would not believe me until he tried it 

then my next car was an auto, so all the gear stuff goes out the window... :wall:

the bike was different, as I had an ex police loon ball... we had great fun.... yes Sir 6th to 1st on approach to that roundabout... use the slipper clutch...

not quite sure it was in the IAM manual... but it was a LOT of fun... :lol:

:thumb:


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## robtech (Jan 17, 2011)

ive always done it, safer and better braking.those that dont do it try it and amaze your self...and for those that say new gear box,rubbish,folk have been doing this for 100 years i'd rather stop safer and faster than worry about gearbox or clutch trouble


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## alan_mcc (Oct 28, 2008)

whats a slipper clutch?

:thumb:


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## The Cueball (Feb 8, 2007)

alan_mcc said:


> whats a slipper clutch?
> 
> :thumb:


special clutch for bikes, as sometimes there is so much power going through the rear wheel when you shift down, it spins up...

so this slipper clutch, takes all the power and torque and limits it... think of traction control in reverse...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slipper_clutch

:thumb:


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## Laurie.J.M (Jun 23, 2011)

Part of it is a generation thing, when my dad drives my car he still goes through the gears when slowing down, even in his automatic car he sometimes changes it down through the gears to aid braking. I was always taught not to use engine braking, I do sometimes use it when braking from high speeds whilst going down hill, such as when leaving the motorway on a downhill slip road. With modern cars you can get down incredibly low speeds in high gear without stalling, when I was learning my instructor wanted to show me how slow we could go in top gear, I got down to well below 10 mph before the car started to judder.


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## Derekh929 (Aug 28, 2011)

The Cueball said:


> I had a real hard time with my IAM instructor...
> 
> part of it was I was using a stupid impreza turbo, which couldn't downshift 'nicely' for it's life... he would not believe me until he tried it
> 
> ...


Cueball your last line was great i used to have an e30 BM and used to use the change down to slow speed of wheels to tail out the rear fantastic fun had in safe place and just one problem knacked the diff not the gear box then got LSD for replacement expensive fun when young and thought it was fun


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## Gruffs (Dec 10, 2007)

I tend to use both.

I haven't done any advanced driver training, but i did have a 42bhp Mini as my first car. It had drum brakes all round, they were absolutely useless unless stamped on. When you stamped on them, you could rely on them to swerve you away from the obstacle :lol:

Anyway, i digress.

What i do and it is habit from the mini is i trail brake into the corner and block change (or step change if appropriate) to the gear i need for the exit (usually 3rd or 4th). At normal speeds it's fine and if i am pushing on, I brake earlier and feather into the corner. I have very little pad wear during my normal commuting (I haven't changed mine in the last 60K - they are getting due now) as i don't brake aggressively. However, this soon changes if i am in a hurry.

I also block change from 4th to 6th as 5th is really for accelerating up to 90ish. As i usually sit at about 65-70 on my commute, 5th is pointless so it's straight to the overdrive. Similarly, 5th is too high for a short squirt so block change to 4th, squirt past whatever and back to 6th. I love Torque.


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## Strothow (Oct 29, 2009)

pooma said:


> Always come down through the box for slowing, means if all of a sudden I'm going again then I'm in the right gear at the right time.


This!


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## pooma (Apr 12, 2008)

As for breaking the box or clutch, I've been doing this for 19 and never broke either yet, and I come down through the box pretty vigorously if giving it some stick or if needing to stop quickly.


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## PugIain (Jun 28, 2006)

I use the gearbox to slow down so I can accelerate again should the opportunity arise.
I dont obviously wang it down from 6th to 2nd but round town 4th>3rd is often enough to slow you down so you dont need to stop.


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## hoikey (Mar 9, 2011)

Laurie.J.M said:


> Part of it is a generation thing, when my dad drives my car he still goes through the gears when slowing down, even in his automatic car he sometimes changes it down through the gears to aid braking. I was always taught not to use engine braking, I do sometimes use it when braking from high speeds whilst going down hill, such as when leaving the motorway on a downhill slip road. With modern cars you can get down incredibly low speeds in high gear without stalling, when I was learning my instructor wanted to show me how slow we could go in top gear, I got down to well below 10 mph before the car started to judder.


That last bit is one way to bugger an engine lol


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## wookey (Jul 13, 2007)

The Cueball said:


> slipper clutches in new bikes are designed for this... :thumb:


Couldn't be without my slipper clutch!

I took my brother in laws bike out in the summer which I forgot didn't have a slipper clutch. Had it fully locked up a few times lol


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## Trip tdi (Sep 3, 2008)

Alan, have you thought of cleaning your carb with cleaner, plus has your car got a air mass flow meter buddie.

Maybe it needs a real good opening up, but not to sure here.


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## alan_mcc (Oct 28, 2008)

Once the colder months have passed Trip I'll be doing the carb cleaner thing, don't want to give the engine any more trouble starting as the cold is bad enough


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## Trip tdi (Sep 3, 2008)

alan_mcc said:


> Once the colder months have passed Trip I'll be doing the carb cleaner thing, don't want to give the engine any more trouble starting as the cold is bad enough


Thats very true there Alan, i;m waiting for the warm weather as well :thumb:, its freezing buddie lately.


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## Laurie.J.M (Jun 23, 2011)

hoikey said:


> That last bit is one way to bugger an engine lol


I don't it all the time, he only asked me to do it once just to prove his point.


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## Mick (Jan 23, 2010)

wookey said:


> Couldn't be without my slipper clutch!
> 
> I took my brother in laws bike out in the summer which I forgot didn't have a slipper clutch. Had it fully locked up a few times lol


Never driven a bike WITH a slipper clutch but it sounds a thoroughly good idea, had one or two proper brown trousers moments in the past when the rear wheel has locked up at speed.


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## The Cueball (Feb 8, 2007)

wookey said:


> Couldn't be without my slipper clutch!
> 
> I took my brother in laws bike out in the summer which I forgot didn't have a slipper clutch. Had it fully locked up a few times lol


When I switched from the 636 to the 12r, I forget she never had one... had a very dodgy moment coming off the motorway as I went down the box...

:doublesho:doublesho:doublesho

:lol:


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## Derbyshire-stig (Dec 22, 2010)

Deano said:


> IAM teaches gears to go, brakes to slow the theory being that brake pads are cheaper than gearboxes. not saying anyones wrong to do it. just saying.


your also taught to be in the correct gear at all times, so sticking it straight into 5th say isnt the way, using the engine to brake will save you fuel, 
if you have a fuel computer do a little test, when rolling down hill dip ur clutch and watch the consumption, now do the same rolling down the hill in a gear,

The brakes on cars have improved and dont fade after a few uses like when cars had drums all round, using the gearbox wasnt a option years ago, it was the best brake you had at times,
Saying that a few quick cars do hate using the engine for braking and chew thru gearboxes, 
I try to use the box just so Im ready to go if need be, rolling and braking then transferring to throttle and finding the correct biting point etc takes a few seconds so may make a difference if some prat is about to plough into the side of you, I shot off when I saw it coming towards me so avoided the accident and the van went sailing down the grass verge.


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## Deano (Jul 7, 2006)

Derbyshire-stig said:


> your also taught to be in the correct gear at all times, so sticking it straight into 5th say isnt the way, using the engine to brake will save you fuel,
> if you have a fuel computer do a little test, when rolling down hill dip ur clutch and watch the consumption, now do the same rolling down the hill in a gear,
> 
> The brakes on cars have improved and dont fade after a few uses like when cars had drums all round, using the gearbox wasnt a option years ago, it was the best brake you had at times,
> ...


mine goes to 200mpg when I dip the clutch. :lol: surely everyone should be in the correct gear at all times?


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## bigmc (Mar 22, 2010)

Key point is being in the correct gear when you need to be not chopping from 5th or 6th down to 2nd in the split second before you need to be, better to be ready in second and feather the clutch in when you need the drive.


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## The Cueball (Feb 8, 2007)

Deano said:


> mine goes to 200mpg when I dip the clutch. :lol: surely everyone should be in the correct gear at all times?


I think people who are not interested in driving don't give a s**t to be honest...

hence why you have the people on the outside lane of a motorway trying to overtake a HGV in 5th gear (usually after sitting right behind it for miles), rather than dropping it down to 4th and actually going by them! :lol:

Fed up of people pulling out in top gear and just mashing their foot into the floor... why don't they realise the car doesn't go anywhere and they use a shed load of fuel to do nothing!?!?! :wall::wall::wall:

:lol:

:driver:


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## DampDog (Apr 16, 2011)

Sequential gear changes and engine braking were the methods used decades ago because the technology of the day dictated it, 40-50 years ago car very few cars had power assited brakes, disk brakes were only fitted to very high end cars. 4 gears was the norm, with syncro possibly limited to a couple of them.

Gear changes had to be squential because the lack of syncro made block changing down nigh on impossible unless you learned how to "double-declutch" The brakes and engine often needed to be used together to get the things to stop at all.

The "Gears to go, brakes to slow" is the more efficient driving style that todays cars allow. Pretty sure you can't buy a car today without ABS, most have some sort of brake assist technology, disk brakes and power assist are the norm. Gear boxes now have 5,6,7 gears all with beautiful syncromesh, and modern engines have sophisticated engine management to keep it all running smoothly.

The notion that becasue you change sequentially "You're always in the correct gear" isn't correct. Over 100,000 miles you'll make 1000's of needless gear changes. 

The only place it's recommended to hold a lower gear to gain some additional engine braking is decending a severe hill, it will stop the vehicle gaining momentum.


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## Guest (Jan 4, 2012)

I see three aspects to this:

1. Reducing pressure on the accelerator to slow down, but keeping the same gear.
2. Changing down a gear to actually slow the car down rather than using the brakes.
3. Changing down a gear, while braking, to assist the braking effort (whether intended or not ).

All are effectively using engine braking to slow the car down.

IMHO, doing 1) is fine - this is part of what is known as Acceleration Sense. You are in complete control, as the braking effort is dictated by the pressure on the accelerator.

2) and 3) are probably what most consider to be using engine braking. It probably does increase wear on the gear box and clutch but that isn't the real issue IMO. 
The problem is that you have virtually no control over how much braking effort is being applied. It might be about right, it might be too little or it might be too much. It's also completely variable depending upon road speed and gear selected. Different cars will also respond in different ways due to weight, gear ratios, engine size and compression rates - plus a load of other stuff I probably missed out.
If it is too much and you start to skid, you'll then be on your own because you will have just managed to circumvented any abs/traction control system on your car.


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## DampDog (Apr 16, 2011)

Agreed..

*2. Changing down a gear to actually slow the car down rather than using the brakes.*

That will get you tail ended for sure. If you think about what you're doing. You're forcing the car to slow using the engine. So you're not showing any brake lights. If you want to drive like an idiot that's the way to do it.

*3. Changing down a gear, while braking, to assist the braking effort (whether intended or not ).*
Again bad driving, technique and pointless.


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## bigmc (Mar 22, 2010)

DampDog said:


> Agreed..
> 
> *2. Changing down a gear to actually slow the car down rather than using the brakes.*
> 
> ...


Been doing the first one for 14 years and never been teail ended. Been doing the second for 14 years too, not bad driving, technique or otherwise or the new auto boxes wouldn't do it for you.


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## The Cueball (Feb 8, 2007)

DampDog said:


> Agreed..
> 
> *2. Changing down a gear to actually slow the car down rather than using the brakes.*
> 
> ...


a) if someone is that close to you, then they are at fault... they are the idiots

b) I do that all the time... no, sorry, my auto boxes do that... maybe you should write to VAG, Jag, BMW etc to tell them they are making pointless things 

:lol:

:thumb:


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## alan_mcc (Oct 28, 2008)

Number '3' I do all of the time, don't see the problem.


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## dew1911 (Jun 9, 2009)

Use it a little bit I must admit, especially with the works van.

And when a brake line splits while going downhill, it's kinda essential...


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## DampDog (Apr 16, 2011)

Blinkin eck, idiots driving the car in front, idiots driving the car behind. No wonder there are so many accidents, the roads are full of em.

b) I do that all the time... no, sorry, my auto boxes do that... maybe you should write to VAG, Jag, BMW etc to tell them they are making pointless things 

No they don't.. They change down because they speed sensitive, not to assist braking.


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## The Cueball (Feb 8, 2007)

DampDog said:


> Blinkin eck, idiots driving the car in front, idiots driving the car behind. No wonder there are so many accidents, the roads are full of em.
> 
> b) I do that all the time... no, sorry, my auto boxes do that... maybe you should write to VAG, Jag, BMW etc to tell them they are making pointless things
> 
> No they don't.. They change down because they speed sensitive, not to assist braking.


Think you need to calm down and stop refering to people as idiots that post on here... wind your neck in a bit... 

I'm not going to bother about your other point... believe what you want...

:thumb:


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## DampDog (Apr 16, 2011)

Lol.. ya crack me up Cuey.

Of course I believe what I want to believe, that's what everyone else on the forum believes. Though I am open to persuasion, gentle or otherwise.:thumb:

The "idiot" comment was meant to be light hearted, bannter. I really aren't that fussed how poeple drive their car so long as they don't run into me, trying to slow the car with the engine..


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## BOB.T (Jun 5, 2007)

The Cueball said:


> special clutch for bikes, as sometimes there is so much power going through the rear wheel when you shift down, it spins up...
> 
> so this slipper clutch, takes all the power and torque and limits it... think of traction control in reverse...
> 
> ...


Hmm, not read the link you posted have you?


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## The Cueball (Feb 8, 2007)

DampDog said:


> Lol.. ya crack me up Cuey.
> 
> Of course I believe what I want to believe, that's what everyone else on the forum believes. Though I am open to persuasion, gentle or otherwise.:thumb:
> 
> The "idiot" comment was meant to be light hearted, bannter. I really aren't that fussed how poeple drive their car so long as they don't run into me, trying to slow the car with the engine..


Well, if it's banter, a little , or :wave:, or  wouldn't kill you, would it!??!!? 

:lol::lol::lol:

:thumb:



BOB.T said:


> Hmm, not read the link you posted have you?


Nope, I don't read the s***t on wikipedia... why what does it say??? :lol:

:thumb:


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## Deano (Jul 7, 2006)

The Cueball said:


> *Well, if it's banter, a little* , or :wave:, or  wouldn't kill you, would it!??!!?
> 
> :lol::lol::lol:
> 
> ...


I tried that, doesnt work! :lol:


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## The Cueball (Feb 8, 2007)

Deano said:


> I tried that, doesnt work! :lol:


:lol::lol::lol::lol:

I saw that....I knew what you meant though.... 

:thumb:


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## DampDog (Apr 16, 2011)

Point taken. It does read a bit "holier than thou" which it wasn't intended to be.

More of if you engine brake "hard" with someone behind, you're potentially getting yourself into deep water. If your not showing any brake lights, and slowing quickly that's a disaster waiting to happen.


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## The Cueball (Feb 8, 2007)

DampDog said:


> Point taken. It does read a bit "holier than thou" which it wasn't intended to be.
> 
> More of if you engine brake "hard" with someone behind, you're potentially getting yourself into deep water. If your not showing any brake lights, and slowing quickly that's a disaster waiting to happen.


I agree with that.... you would hope that a) they are not too close mind you, and b) they are looking at the conditions and maybe expecting to slow down (via brakes or engine)

Mind you, if I am going into a corner and shifting down a few gears, I am probably being a bit of a loon, so I would not expect someone to keep up with me... yes, I know it's not big or clever....  

I also do the reverse sometimes if someone if too close and just "tap" the brakes so the lights go on... hoping it wakes them up and they back off... I know people that put their rear fogs on as well for this reason...

:thumb:


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## DampDog (Apr 16, 2011)

Unfortunately, I don't think the day will ever come when I don't get someone driving "too close". Chucking it down, blowing a gale, pitch black, and they think the safest place to be is 3ft from the car in fronts back bumper. Worlds gone mad..


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## The Cueball (Feb 8, 2007)

DampDog said:


> Unfortunately, I don't think the day will ever come when I don't get someone driving "too close". Chucking it down, blowing a gale, pitch black, and they think the safest place to be is 3ft from the car in fronts back bumper. Worlds gone mad..


I think they are all just very, very lonely people...

they can't be on the road by their own... they have to bunch up for company...

I see it all the time... someone is really close to the car in front, they turn off... the tailgaiter is all alone, so charges up to the back side of the next car for company......

:lol:

seriously though... really dangerous people out there.... I don't think it will ever stop... nothing seems to change their minds.... :wall:

:thumb:


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## vRS Carl (Aug 14, 2011)

Engine braking won't do any harm on a modern car.

I do it all the time and as long as your not being daft, i.e. trying to go from 6th to 1st, then it will be fine.

My last 2 cars i put 67k on one car and 85k on the other and neither of them sufferend any engine or gearbox problems. I know the new owner of one of them and he has put a further 9k miles on it and it is still going strong.

Don't forget it's not just the engine that is slowing you down. It is also the drag of the tyres and wind resistance. Brakes just enable you to slow down quicker than the friction elements of the other 3 combined produce.


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## toomanycitroens (Jan 14, 2011)

Bit 'old school' here, but coming down the gears when braking as an assistance is surely 'good practice'. You remain fully in control of the vehicle and are ready to proceed in the correct gear when road conditions allow.
As for damaging gearboxes etc. Absolute tosh, over the years I must have driven many hundreds of thousands of miles with no additional expenses.
This all depends on Drivers' anticipation and ability to read the road ahead.
As Cuey says though, 'most people couldn't care less'.


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## Guest (Jan 4, 2012)

alan_mcc said:


> Number '3' I do all of the time, don't see the problem.


It is really all about reducing risk. The problem will only occur as you approach the limit of grip, which can be surprisingly low in poor weather conditions. It's the unknown extra braking effect given by the engine that can cause the problem. Unless you slip the clutch, engine braking is sudden in its application and uncontrollable in its severity.

Whenever you are accelerating, braking or cornering you are essentially asking to use up some of the grip each tyre has to offer. You are also causing a weight transfer (forwards, backwards and/or left, right) which affects the levels of grip available at each tyre.
Braking, no matter how you do it, ultimately requires grip from the tyres to actually decelerate the car.

Each tyre can only offer so much grip. Once you ask for more grip than a tyre can give it will start to slide. 
When accelerating, this is seen as wheel spin. 
When braking this is seen as wheels locking. 
When cornering this is seen as understeer or oversteer (or an all wheel slide in extreme cases).

In a straight line you are probably ok, but changing down a gear while braking in a corner is just asking to tempt fate, particularly in low(er) grip situations.


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## Bero (Mar 9, 2008)

Slowing down = Brakes - quickly followed by 'box.

Ensures I'm in the right gear when the middle pedal is lifted.


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## DampDog (Apr 16, 2011)

BareFacedGeek said:


> It is really all about reducing risk. The problem will only occur as you approach the limit of grip, which can be surprisingly low in poor weather conditions. It's the unknown extra braking effect given by the engine that can cause the problem. Unless you slip the clutch, engine braking is sudden in its application and uncontrollable in its severity.
> 
> Whenever you are accelerating, braking or cornering you are essentially asking to use up some of the grip each tyre has to offer. You are also causing a weight transfer (forwards, backwards and/or left, right) which affects the levels of grip available at each tyre.
> Braking, no matter how you do it, ultimately requires grip from the tyres to actually decelerate the car.
> ...


That's a really good explanation, it's all about reducing "risk" and keeping the car as balanced as possible for any give situation.

Until about 4-5 years back I was deffo old school 95% of the time, 25 years or more. I'd picked up loads of bad habits that I hadn't even noticed or was completely unaware of. I took a fair bit of driver training and during the course of it switched from sequentially chaning gear (among other things) to "block" changing and it took me hours and hours of driving to lose my reach for the gear stick. But now I've swapped, I can't for the life of me understand why I drove like I did. The "gears for go, brakes for slow" method is much kinder on the car, it makes you anticipate and plan better.

Nice little example is your leaving a motorway via a long exit ramp. Your doing 70mph in 6th. As you approach the roundabout at the end, you're on the brakes, you do you observations select the next appropiate gear 2nd maybe 3rd and you're gone.. and it's taken one gear change. There simply put isn't any need for 6th-5th-4th-3rd-2nd, or engine braking. While I doubt they'd do any harm, they will increase wear on the clutch and moving parts.


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## hoikey (Mar 9, 2011)

BareFacedGeek said:


> It is really all about reducing risk. The problem will only occur as you approach the limit of grip, which can be surprisingly low in poor weather conditions. It's the unknown extra braking effect given by the engine that can cause the problem. Unless you slip the clutch, engine braking is sudden in its application and uncontrollable in its severity.
> 
> Whenever you are accelerating, braking or cornering you are essentially asking to use up some of the grip each tyre has to offer. You are also causing a weight transfer (forwards, backwards and/or left, right) which affects the levels of grip available at each tyre.
> Braking, no matter how you do it, ultimately requires grip from the tyres to actually decelerate the car.
> ...


If your braking whilst turning a corner the. There's something wrong with your driving to be honest.

Using the engine to slow you down is fine, wagons do it, plant machines do it, auto cars do it, race drivers do it, most men do it......
Will cause no damage or lack of grip at all if done right


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## Gruffs (Dec 10, 2007)

hoikey said:


> If your braking whilst turning a corner the. There's something wrong with your driving to be honest.


Not true.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/McLaren_MP4/12

 

Braking whilst in the corner alters the balance and change the attitude of the car. In a FWD car, it can be an essential control method.

Anyway, at commuting speeds well within the limits of the car, you can brake right up to the apex and drive out of it.

In fact, you should be able to do it to know what your car will do should you need to brake in the corner.

Braking in a straight line is for race tracks. If you are driving fast enough on the road for trail braking to be an issue, you are going too fast.


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## hoikey (Mar 9, 2011)

Gruffs said:


> Not true.
> 
> http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/McLaren_MP4/12
> 
> ...


I've had some scary moments braking whilst turning so just don't do it when i can help it


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## Mirror Finish Details (Aug 21, 2008)

I just knock my car into neutral, coast along and use the brakes.


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## Dannbodge (Sep 26, 2010)

I always use the engine for braking. Saves fuel apparently

Sent from my Desire HD


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## millns84 (Jul 5, 2009)

I've got an auto so haven't got a choice really, although I have engine braked in the past as it's how I was taught when learning.

Sent from my laptop using keyboard.


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## Guest (Jan 4, 2012)

hoikey said:


> If your braking whilst turning a corner the. There's something wrong with your driving to be honest.


Agreed. The ideal situation is to have completed your braking and actually be back on the accelerator before turning the steering wheel. This is to avoid a forwards weight transfer during cornering. This is the safest way to corner, but not the fastest.



hoikey said:


> Using the engine to slow you down is fine, wagons do it, plant machines do it, auto cars do it, race drivers do it, most men do it......
> Will cause no damage or lack of grip at all if done right


I can't comment on wagons or plant machines.
Auto boxes will change down during braking at an effectively rev matched point and thus no engine braking effect will actually occur - at least this is my experience of automatic cars.
Race drivers definately do not engine brake - not decent ones anyway. A race driver will be threshold braking, using fine control of the brake pedal to modulate braking pressure and keep the car at the limit of grip. They will certainly change down while braking, but this will be rev matched, via heal and toe, to remove any chance of engine braking - they are already at the limit of grip, any engine braking will take them past it and cause wheels to lock up and, probably, the car to skid. I doubt they will be changing gear, even via H&T, when trail braking - any gear changes will be done while still on the straight.



Gruffs said:


> Braking whilst in the corner alters the balance and change the attitude of the car. In a FWD car, it can be an essential control method.


I could believe it a useful skill on the race track, but not essential on the road.



Gruffs said:


> Anyway, at commuting speeds well within the limits of the car, you can brake right up to the apex and drive out of it.


You can indeed. The reason you can is because, as you say, you are well below the limit of grip. This still doesn't make it a good driving technique.



Gruffs said:


> In fact, you should be able to do it to know what your car will do should you need to brake in the corner.


Agreed. Most of us (which definately includes me) will rely on the fact we are, 1) well below the limit of grip and, 2) we have traction control to help us, to keep things from ever getting hairy. If we actually do get into a skid, how many of us actually would know how to control it (and this includes applying the knowledge too rather than just panicing) and actually have the space to do so on our public roads before we hit someone or something.



Gruffs said:


> Braking in a straight line is for race tracks. If you are driving fast enough on the road for trail braking to be an issue, you are going too fast.


I'd say it was the other way around. Braking in a straight line for road driving. Leave the trail braking for the race track - even then it apparently only taught to more experienced track drivers as it is quite a difficult technique to master.

As a footnote, I think the reasons for not braking while corning and not using engine braking are getting lost. They are not in themselves dangerous practices under normal circumstances - some people reading this thread may well have proved that to themselves on their drive home tonight.
Safe driving is all about reducing risk and thus increasing your margin for error if an unexpected situation does arise. It is not a silver bullet but the techniques taught by the various advanced driving organisations do try to instill good driving practices to give you a larger safety buffer.


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## hoikey (Mar 9, 2011)

Not gonna quote that essay because it will be a ball ache on my phone.

How is using heal and toe and changing down through the box not engine braking? You brake, dip the clutch and blip the throttle whilst changing gear and let the clutch back out again to catch it whilst revving. This then means your in gear without the accelerator on which therefore means the revs are dropping and your engine is infact slowing you down. Hence race drivers use engine braking


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## Trip tdi (Sep 3, 2008)

What about left foot braking, or am i breaking the rules here


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## Bero (Mar 9, 2008)

hoikey said:


> Not gonna quote that essay because it will be a ball ache on my phone.
> 
> How is using heal and toe and changing down through the box not engine braking? You brake, dip the clutch and blip the throttle whilst changing gear and let the clutch back out again to catch it whilst revving. This then means your in gear without the accelerator on which therefore means the revs are dropping and your engine is infact slowing you down. Hence race drivers use engine braking


Absolutely right! Heel & Toe does not eliminate engine braking, it's used to smooth it out; it prevents the sudden braking when the clutch is re-engaged.


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## Guest (Jan 5, 2012)

Trip tdi said:


> What about left foot braking, or am i breaking the rules here


They're not so much rules as guidelines . It depends upon what you are trying to achieve .


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## Guest (Jan 5, 2012)

hoikey said:


> Not gonna quote that essay because it will be a ball ache on my phone.
> 
> How is using heal and toe and changing down through the box not engine braking? You brake, dip the clutch and blip the throttle whilst changing gear and let the clutch back out again to catch it whilst revving. This then means your in gear without the accelerator on which therefore means the revs are dropping and your engine is infact slowing you down. Hence race drivers use engine braking





Bero said:


> Absolutely right! Heel & Toe does not eliminate engine braking, it's used to smooth it out; it prevents the sudden braking when the clutch is re-engaged.


Chaps, I'm perhaps not explaining myself correctly.

Reducing/removing pressure from the accelerator will, of course, induce engine braking - at normal roads speeds it will be the major factor in slowing your car down when you do this.

However when braking, the decelaration caused by the brake pads rubbing against the discs is significantly greater than decelaration caused by engine braking. Thus, the rate of decelaration can be entirely controlled by the brake pedal and the additional effects of engine braking can essentially be ignored.

The only time it does become an issue is if, as Bero says, you don't rev match during a down change. Then you can get a significant engine braking effect due to the mismatch in engine speed to road speed. It's this effect that I've been waffling on about.
I have actually been driven by someone whose driving style was to not use the brakes much at all. He would just take his foot off the accelerator and throw the car into a lower gear to slow it down.


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## dew1911 (Jun 9, 2009)

Wow, didn't realise that engine braking was so well hated round here, I personally thought it was a valid aid. There are 2 situations though where imo it comes into a league of it's own....

1) Long steep inclines. Not quite the issue it was years ago due to improved brakes on modern vehicles, but especially larger vehicles, the ability to brake and hold speed with the engine can help reduce the chances of brake fade/failure. Some larger vehicles (usually coaches) have a device called a retarder which basically does a form of artificial engine braking by slowing the prop shaft down using magnets. Not too common in trucks as they weigh about half a tonne, but can be used to regulate speed very nicely

2) Ice. I may come under some fire for this one, but during last winter particular, trying to navigate completely ungritted, sometimes sheet ice roads, I found engine braking to be far more predictable than using the brakes, and also far less likely to incur wheel lock. If there was a vehicle behind me, I used to be able to just press the pedal enough to trigger the brake lights, without actually applying any pressure too the disks.

Just my 2p..


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## Guest (Jan 5, 2012)

Dew, that all sounds very sensible to me.

I have no experience of driving heavy vehicles but I have read that engine braking is used in situations as you describe.

As for driving on snow/ice, yes definately I use it myself in that way for those very reasons. In fact, I use engine braking every time I drive my car, I prefer it over using the brake pedal - it is a much smoother technique in general.

I think I have managed to confuse the issue in my posts.
You can engine brake smoothly and with control by changing pressure on the accelerator - this is a good technique. It's known as Acceleration Sense by advanced driving organisations.
You can engine brake harshly by selecting lower gear without rev matching - this is the (poor) technique I've been ranting about .


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## Gruffs (Dec 10, 2007)

BareFacedGeek said:


> I'd say it was the other way around. Braking in a straight line for road driving. Leave the trail braking for the race track - even then it apparently only taught to more experienced track drivers as it is quite a difficult technique to master.


Retarders are fitted to coaches as well and are used to great effect on steep descents.

Trail braking is something i do as a habit. When i got my first car with ABS, it took me a while not to cadence brake when the ABS kicked in too.

But, at commuting speeds it is not dangerous. in fact, if you are driving sensibly, braking technique should matter less than basic observation and road craft.


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## theshrew (May 21, 2008)

I was tought not to use engine braking and change down to 2nd then stop. 

I have only ever driven like this when i was learning once i passed i go down the box. 

Why ? 

Because you have more control of the vehicle when its in gear. You are always ready to pull away if required. Its what you need to do in ice / snow or on steep hills. 

As stated above trucks / bus etc have exhaust brakes, intarders and retarders to help with braking. In fact on newer trucks the exhaust brakes have been updated and now work very well. 

It doesnt put extra strain on the gearbox having a nice smooth down shift 

I think its wrong to teach people to block shift - for eg a new driver who doesnt know anything about cars etc has a brake fail for some reason they probably wouldnt no that changing down gears will help them slow down


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## dew1911 (Jun 9, 2009)

theshrew said:


> As stated above trucks / bus etc have exhaust brakes, intarders and retarders to help with braking. In fact on newer trucks the exhaust brakes have been updated and now work very well.


Its about time, those exhaust brakes were about as much use as an ashtray on a motorbike on the older ones :lol: Truck brakes now are scarily good, I've seen a loaded 32 tonner anchor on from 40mph and the way it stopped was stunning, air lines chattering away as the ABS worked.

If your doing a lot of hill work retarders are a must have, trouble is the weight when every kilo is wanted for payload.


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## bigmc (Mar 22, 2010)

You should try one of the new Volvo D13 engines with the VEB on them, they're that severe they activate the brake lights.


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## Guest (Jan 5, 2012)

Gruffs said:


> But, at commuting speeds it is not dangerous. in fact, if you are driving sensibly, braking technique should matter less than basic observation and road craft.


Agreed, observation is the most important part of safe driving. Car control is just adding finesse.


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## ChrisJD (Apr 15, 2009)

Nothing wrong in engine braking. Wish more people would use it when commuting on motorways and duel carriage ways. When the traffic is busy, people jump on the brakes which then forces cars behind to slow more suddenly, I just control the speed with the engine, I look a couple of cars ahead so know when to come off the throttle. With some it seems to be on throttle or on brake, no smoothness involved.

In terms of spirited driving:driver:, I do sometimes use engine braking, but always 'blip' the throttle to raise the engine revs, this is obviously safer for both engine and gearbox and a lot smoother.
Haven't masterd heel and toe on track yet though...

Chris.


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## The Cueball (Feb 8, 2007)

Ahhh, good old phantom braking... a common sight on the UK motorways...

Idiots... the lot of them.... :wall::wall::wall::wall::wall:

If they could only get 10% accelerator sense for Christmas.... :lol:

:thumb:


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## kh904 (Dec 18, 2006)

ChrisJD said:


> When the traffic is busy, people jump on the brakes which then forces cars behind to slow more suddenly, I just control the speed with the engine, I look a couple of cars ahead so know when to come off the throttle. With some it seems to be on throttle or on brake, no smoothness involved.


I agree with this - reading the road ahead! This is what i do, more fuel efficient & less stress/wear & tear on the car's components.
It's also a smoother, more relaxing and safer drive!


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## Maggi200 (Aug 21, 2009)

I had problems when Learning to drive because my instructor barked on about block changing but would never justify this well enough (or at all).

I never block change, I'm always in the right gear for the speed I'm travelling that way.
And i always use engine braking. A little blip to aurally satisfy myself and keep the changes smooth and I can't see any additional strain on any components. 

On the a1m at the weekend in reasonably heavy traffic I was watching 2-3 cars ahead and adjusting my speed and left a nice gap between me and the car in front who was constantly on the brakes. Whereas I'm sure I only touched them once.


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## rob_vrs (Jan 4, 2012)

Engine braking is good however id advise matching engine revs when changing down then its a win win situation, helps control the car when slowing down also helps save your clutch and gearbox as now load has been placed on the parts


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## rob_vrs (Jan 4, 2012)

maggi133 said:


> I had problems when Learning to drive because my instructor barked on about block changing but would never justify this well enough (or at all).
> 
> I never block change, I'm always in the right gear for the speed I'm travelling that way.
> And i always use engine braking. A little blip to aurally satisfy myself and keep the changes smooth and I can't see any additional strain on any components.
> ...


Thats the one, little blip ensures smooth and safe engine braking


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## Maggi200 (Aug 21, 2009)

Yup it also means when down changing past a bus stop all the girls waiting have their clothes fall off


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## Multipla Mick (Feb 5, 2006)

kh904 said:


> I agree with this - reading the road ahead! This is what i do, more fuel efficient & less stress/wear & tear on the car's components.
> It's also a smoother, more relaxing and safer drive!


Same here. Engine braking used to be important when cars had weedy old drums prone to fading, but with modern disc brakes and what have you, it's not as important. But it doesn't mean that ignoring engine braking as a technique and instead just using the brakes is a good thing. Well, not in my book anyway. Done properly there is nothing wrong with engine braking, while just tramping on the brake pedal all the time will just wear your brake pads out quicker, and make your wheels muckier. The main thing is though, just using the brakes will probably make the driver lazier as he/she won't be reading the road ahead as much, and he/she/hard to tell won't be driving as smoothly.
So it's strange to read that instructors are advising block down changes and relying on brakes rather than keeping them fresh, and also being in the right gear to accelerate again should you want to. To me they are just promoting 'driving to the brake lights in front' rather than looking ahead, reading the road and anticipating slowing before the driver in front has even noticed anything.

I block change going up the gears when I can though, third to fifth, fourth to sixth, that kind of thing, that's because it's more economical, seems pointless going through them one by one, and I'm a lazy git too


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## rob_vrs (Jan 4, 2012)

maggi133 said:


> Yup it also means when down changing past a bus stop all the girls waiting have their clothes fall off


Hahahahahahaha love it, i have dsg now so does it either way i dont have a choice


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## Maggi200 (Aug 21, 2009)

Maybe it was the vrs I drove but I remember thinking that the engine and gearbox didn't aid braking in the slightest!


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## rob_vrs (Jan 4, 2012)

No its not good for aiding braking but for the blip i have no choice


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## hallett (May 22, 2008)

I always engine break myself and its so helpful that you dont have to break as early and I can stop much quicker but putting it in second and being gentle with the clutch as well as breaking, if I breked that hard without the engine breaking it just locks the front wheels! Also there nothing that p****s me off more than someone who stays in 5th does all the breaking and that puts it in 3rd or 2nd once your round the corner with a massive jerk as they come up on the clutch to fast :wall: :lol:


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## Bero (Mar 9, 2008)

hallett said:


> I always engine break myself and its so helpful that you dont have to break as early and I can stop much quicker but putting it in second and being gentle with the clutch as well as breaking, if I breked that hard without the engine breaking it just locks the front wheels! Also there nothing that p****s me off more than someone who stays in 5th does all the breaking and that puts it in 3rd or 2nd once your round the corner with a massive jerk as they come up on the clutch to fast :wall: :lol:


Engine braking can't make you stop much quicker, ultimate stopping force is dictated by the tyre to road co-efficent of friction. Hard engine braking can lock the wheels too - but it's more typical in RWD cars as weight is transferred off the rear wheels when slowing.


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## Alex_225 (Feb 7, 2008)

I'm of the opinion of gears to go brakes to slow............

But, I drive in the right gear for my speed. For example, to maintain a steady speed I will happily sit in 3rd or 4th to maintain that speed provided I'm not revving the ar$e off the car. 

I won't necessarily go through every gear as I slow down but will brake, read the situation ahead and change into the correct gear to either keep moving or come to a stop. 

I have a mate who'll do every gear up and down through the gears. Coming off the motorway it goes, 6th, clutch down, down a gear, off the clutch slow a bit more then down to the next gear all the way down to a stop. Just no need for it at all and the way a lot of people change gear, not necessarily sympathetic to the car. 

So basically for me it's gears for go, brakes for slow and being in a suitable gear for the conditions.


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## RedUntilDead (Feb 10, 2009)

Not read every page but what about when your towing? I use engine braking to assist my brakes.
As for block changing, well I have no choice as my gearbox has shed 3rd gear synchro


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