# My dilemma...



## Rich @ PB (Oct 26, 2005)

So, I've been reading up on this for months on various forums and in some of the popular magazines. I want to step up to a DSLR for the first time (plenty of SLR experience, but ever since the digital revolution I've been stuck with decent compacts due to budget, etc) mainly for (i) studio shots of the cars we have in (ii) product photography (just bought a lastolite/interfit table top setup) and general fun shots of family life, etc. My whittled down choices so far...

Nikon D80 with the highly rated 18-200 VR lens - expensive, maybe too well specced for a novice like me?

Nikon D60 with the highly rated 18-200 VR lens - only slightly less expensive, but easier to use from the off?

Canon 450D with standard lens and new Canon 55-250 EF-S lens - the main benefits being higher resolution and the Live View screen.

I really love the feel of the Nikons and the 18-200 VR lens seems to be the best one size fits all solution without compromise in terms of image quality, but the fact that I wear glasses and do a lot of studio shooting means that Live View is very appealing. If the Nikons came with Live View then it would be a no brainer, but because they don't I'm not sure what to do.

Any advice welcomed!


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## extreme-detail (Nov 7, 2005)

hi rich i can only tell you about the nicon as that what i`m using, ok its a d40x and not the d60 or d80. 

with the nicon i`m still learning new things about it and the pics are so much better than before when i had the fuji

as for the live veiw i here what you are saying rich and i was thing the same thing, how ever i`m use to not having it now and tbh i dont miss it now.

as for the lense go for the 18-200 as this would cover for what you need 

mike


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## Jakedoodles (Jan 16, 2006)

I'd go for the best you can afford to be honest. The D80 is a cracking camera. You won't regret it.


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## Monkey (Apr 30, 2007)

ive only used Canons, mainly the 350D and 400D. both cameras are really good, fast Multi point AF, and the lenses are smooth, espechially if you can get the Ultra sonic motion ones.

plus Sigma's range of lenses for these camera are really really good, i cant complain about canon's 

if it was me i'd buy the canon, and save up for the lenses, as you wont be disapointed

ALL IMO


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## flanker (Feb 18, 2008)

^^+1.
Used Canon for years, own 400D, great camera,good value for money.
Don't believe all you hear and read about the Canon kit lenses...they are'nt 
that bad.


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## silver bmw z3 (Apr 30, 2007)

I've always been a big fan of Canon but to be honest I don't think you can go far wrong with either Nikon or Canon. I had 300d and now have 30d and both were and are excellent, although I'm considering stepping down from SLR as I can never be bothered to carry it places and it is a bit too in-yer-face for family gatherings/parties.


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## dubnut71 (Jul 25, 2006)

I will fight the Nikon corner here then!!

The D80 (which I own) is well specced and easy to use but as you rightly say does not have live view (or dust removal).
D80 is also a physically bigger camera in body size so this either suits you or it doesn't (the D40 and D60 being roughly the same - slightly smaller in size)

Also there is no secondary or "top" lcd on the D60, sometimes this is invaluable for a quick check of camera settings whilst shooting without having to revert to the rear LCD and a host of menu's.

I would strongly advise you however to try the live view function on a SLR because its not the same animal that you get on a compact. Nikon only use one sensor so the liveview can slow the autofocus and lead to funny results (Sony get round this by using a second sensor to generate the live image and if you use one of the Alpha cameras you can tell the difference in speed.

I am not absolutely sold on live view but I can see where it would be useful in composing shots in a studio (or unit!) environment though and to be fair you have time to wait for the a/f and your subject aint exactly going anywhere!!

Best bet is to go handle them,try the functions and have a play to see what suits you best. A lot of magazines are contradictory and if you like using it then that means its the best for you mate despite how many gold stars it get!!

Have fun!!


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## flanker (Feb 18, 2008)

dubnut71 said:


> Best bet is to go handle them,try the functions and have a play to see what suits you best. A lot of magazines are contradictory and if you like using it then that means its the best for you mate despite how many gold stars it get!!


Sound advice!
People will either say Canon or Nikon depending on their
preference, me included, but the best way is to go into a good camera shop and play with as many cameras as it takes untill you decide.

Then buy online and save pounds:lol:


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## -ROM- (Feb 23, 2007)

My advice would be to forget the 18-200VR if one of your main criteria is studio shots of the cars PB detail then get a sgima 10-20 wide angle, it will give you some really nice wide angles as 18mm on a DX camera isn't that wide!. The 10-22 will much better suit your needs as the long end of the 18-200 will never get used!

On the camera front D80 is the way to go if you can afford the premium over the D60!


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## Rich @ PB (Oct 26, 2005)

I can see what you are saying about the focal range, but with trips to New York and Florida beckoning I could really do with a single lens that gives me as many options as possible. Maybe the Polished Bliss budget can stretch to a wide angle lens specifically for work use! So far I've had my mitts on the Nikon models mentioned above, but not the Canon - will need to go into the city to do this one weekend. Point noted about the live view; having not had a play with the 450D yet I have yet to see one in action, and if it's not the same as when using a compact then I think I'll be swayed towards the D80. Cheers for the input folks, much appreciated.


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## rob750 (Apr 17, 2006)

Nikon hands down 
There 300 and D3 are range toppers 

You must consider not just this purchase but whichever brand you tie up with will influence any further upgrade purchases 

Nikon D range film cameras were the press photographers standard use 

Nikon D1 was ground breaking a Digital SLR

The EOS range were good cameras but were lightweight 

D300 and D3 have blown away the proffessional photographers and in time that technology will be passed down 


The choice is easy NIKON


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## rob750 (Apr 17, 2006)

And if you need any further proof CSI and NCIS both use Nikon cameras !!!


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## flanker (Feb 18, 2008)

Or next time you see the Press corp, check out the white lenses......Canon.


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## rob750 (Apr 17, 2006)

You can purchase white NIKON lens but do check out the press you will see its mainly Nikon now Canon has had its day


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## -ROM- (Feb 23, 2007)

flanker said:


> Or next time you see the Press corp, check out the white lenses......Canon.





rob750 said:


> You can purchase white NIKON lens but do check out the press you will see its mainly Nikon now Canon has had its day


Things are changing, yes can with its high ISO capabilities canon was the favoured press camera, the D3 has changed that and a LOT of canon fans are making the switch!


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## flanker (Feb 18, 2008)

I stand corrected then.


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## Lespaul (May 23, 2006)

Best advice is to get down to a decent local camera shop and have a play with the cameras you are looking at.

Nikon are currently offering cash back deals which will be worth looking at, also worth knowing that the D80 is due for replacement by the D90 so if your not in a hurry there may be some D80's at very keen prices later on this year :thumb:

Due to you being used to SLR's anyway I'd say that you'd out grow the D60 and 450D quite quickly so would look at D80 or a 40D imho.

Darren


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## Sandro (Mar 16, 2008)

as soon as you pick up a 450D you'll put right back dowan again cos it just doesnt feel like an SLR should, they're light and plasticy.

My brother has the 350D and ive got the Nikon D50, he had a shot of the D50 the other day and couldnt believe how much better it felt to hold.

Id say just go with the D80, the build quality of the canons just puts me off right away :s


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## Multipla Mick (Feb 5, 2006)

I've just got a 450D, still finding my way around it, but bought it for it's live view allowing it to be used tethered to the laptop. However, after only using the live view on my G7 when taking normal photos, I now find I don't use the live view on the 450 at all hand held, in fact I've not even switched it on while in my hand. The viewfinder is so much better than on the compact, and it feels more natural and stable to use the viewfinder. The build quality seems pretty good to me, yes it's plastic but it doesn't feel at all flimsy, no creaks or flexi panels and it's chunky enough in my hands. Images are soft though and need a bit of sharpening (I think that appears to be a Canon trait judging by what I've read). Amateur Photographer mag tested it this week, and ranked it behind the Nikon D60, so I'd definitely go and have a play with them in a shop and see what you prefer. If you want to use it tethered then there is a strong argument for the 450D, but if not, you may find, like me when I'm using it hand held, you don't use the live view at all, in which case the D80 would appear to be a better alternative at around the same money (I think...)
Edit - as mentioned by Lespaul above, there is also the EOS 40D, nearest Canon to a D80 I would think, and with live view.


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## Alexjw (Oct 24, 2007)

i had this exact same diema 1x week ago.

My choices were between the....

D60 or D80 with the 18-200 VR lens. Id tried the cannon cameras 400/450D but didnt like the feel of them, they just dont sit as well in your hands when shooting.

I went in numerous shops holding the camera's with the different lenses, read numerous reviews on the internet and in the end i settled for the..

D60 with both the 18-55 VR & 55-200 VR lenses. 

This combo was picked up for £630. Then you get £60 cashback from nikon for purchasing the D60 + 2 nikon lenses making the total £580.



The reason i chose the D60 over the D80 was as follows....


*I tried the D80 as it was available for not much more but it felt a little too heavy/bulky for a camera which i wanted to carry with me on day's out / holidays / general carrying around (this may not be the case for you).

*The main difference with the 2x cameras being the motorised autofocus motor built into the D80 body was not relevant to me as i had no older type lenses.

*The D80 (Summer 2006) is a much older camera than the D60 (2months old) and will probably be superseeded by the D90 in the very near future. 

* The D80 has no built in CCD cleaning facility unlike the D60. It may be a gimic but the guy in the shop told me that he'd have it over a camera without this facility any day and most new DSLR's tend to have this. If it means you have to send the camera away less for cleaning then I'm happy.

*I wasnt too interested in the top mounted display on the D80 as the D60's rear LCD seemed to be very competant. 



Also lenses......

I tried the 18-200 VR lens on both camera's but i felt that it was too big for the D60's lighter body. It just weighted the front of the camera down too much and took the fun out of carrying it around. If you intend to get the D80 then i'd get this lens for sure as it balances perfectly with this heavier camera body but results in a much heavier combination.

In the end as i had decided on the D60 i also settled for the combination of the 18-55 VR (good for day to day shooting as its very very light) and the 55-200 VR ( great for zoom shots - also very light ). This combination worked out to be £300 cheaper than the D60 with 18-200 VR lens. Whilst this may be a much more versatile lens it is also much heavier and not as well suited to the D60. The 2x seperate lenses perform almost identically to their bigger brother the 18-200VR. The only downside with this is that you would have to switch lenses occasionally but this depends entirely on what you plan to photograph and if you regularly plan to switch between wider angle shots and telephoto. To me this was not a great priority and if i did need to do this then it would only take 10seconds to switch lenses. I did not want to pay the extra £300 just for that little bit of extra convenience. For most of the time ill be quite happy with the D60 + 18-55 VR, its a delightful combination, so light you barely feel like you're carrying it.

Hope this is of some help.


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## Alexjw (Oct 24, 2007)

Some pictures Ive taken with my 1wk old D60 + 18-55VR / 55-200VR

All resized for download speed but you get the idea

Image1
Image2
Image 3
Image 4


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## Rich @ PB (Oct 26, 2005)

Some excellent feedback above, many, many thanks. :thumb:


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## dubnut71 (Jul 25, 2006)

rmorgan84 said:


> Things are changing, yes can with its high ISO capabilities canon was the favoured press camera, the D3 has changed that and a LOT of canon fans are making the switch!


Just read that the Sun's sports tog Dickie Pelham has started to use D3's after a very long time with Canon and knows of 7 others that have moved over to the D3, they are nicknaming it Black Gold due to its ability to autofocus and catch pin sharp shots in very tricky conditions.

The canon / Nikon thing will run forever mate but whichever you end up woth I really hope you enjoy using it!:thumb:


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## andybod (Mar 23, 2008)

i can reccomend the d80 i've just upgraded from a canon 300d and the nikon is in a totally different league


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## IGADIZ (May 21, 2006)

Andy the 300D is a 4 year old camera, so no wonder you think the Nikon D80 is in a different league.
It will be like me comparing your D80 with My 1DMKIII, just not fair don´t you think?.
Both brands perform very well indeed and there is little to separate them when it comes to image quality.
Is more a matter of what you like in the camera more than anything else.
Whichever you go for, spend some money on decent glass, that´s what makes the pictures. 
Here is my latest pictures taken yesterday at the WHF.
Pictures like this can be achieved with both brands (regardless, D80, 1DMKIII, D3, 300D etc.)










Canon EOS 1D MKIII
EF 70-200mm f/2.8L @200mm
ISO 200 1/100sec @ f/4 -0.3 EC










Canon EOS 1D MKIII
EF 100-400mmL @ 300mm
ISO 200 1/1000 sec @ f/5.6


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## cossiemen (Mar 6, 2006)

Forget Nikon and Canon, go for the Pentax K10D. :thumb:










Shot with: Pentax K10D - 18-55mm kitlens


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## Rich @ PB (Oct 26, 2005)

After having a play with all three cameras shortlisted above, it's now down to the D60 vs D80. I've also moved away from the idea of the one size fits all 18-200 mm VR lens - the great advice offered above got me thinking, a fast 17-55 mm will probably serve me better, along with a budget 55-200 mm and dedicated wide angle when funds allow. I'm actually liking the idea of the D80 more and more due to the greater range of lenses that can be used with it (what with it having the AF motor on board). Decision time soon. Anyone use the Nikon AF-S 17-55mm f/2.8G DX IF-ED lens and have any thoughts on it?


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## -ROM- (Feb 23, 2007)

WX51 TXR said:


> After having a play with all three cameras shortlisted above, it's now down to the D60 vs D80. I've also moved away from the idea of the one size fits all 18-200 mm VR lens - the great advice offered above got me thinking, a fast 17-55 mm will probably serve me better, along with a budget 55-200 mm and dedicated wide angle when funds allow. I'm actually liking the idea of the D80 more and more due to the greater range of lenses that can be used with it (what with it having the AF motor on board). Decision time soon. Anyone use the Nikon AF-S 17-55mm f/2.8G DX IF-ED lens and have any thoughts on it?


The 17-55 is a fantastic lens, it is a pro quality in terms of build and image quality. However there are some drawbacks!

These being:

The price - Cheapest you can get a new one at the moment is about £750.

Size - It is a VERY big and HEAVY lens for it's focal range, to use it comfortably on a D80 you'd have to buy the battery grip for the camera to balance the proportions up a bit otherwise your wrists will get tired very quickly!

I would get one of these, it is 90% the lens for 30% the money:

http://www.warehouseexpress.com/product/default.aspx?sku=1013811

Here's an independent review of the lens:

http://www.bythom.com/1750lens.htm


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## IGADIZ (May 21, 2006)

Before you take the plunge, you may want to take a look at this site. http://www.kenrockwell.com
Mr Rockwell is an absolute Nikon freak, and his site has a wealth of information on all things Nikon.
As for the lens above, be aware that the focusing speed, build and image quality of the Tamron are nowhere near as good as the Nikkor lenses, buy accordingly to what you want to shoot.
Just a thought.


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## -ROM- (Feb 23, 2007)

IGADIZ said:


> Also, before you take the plunge, you may want to take a look at this site. http://www.kenrockwell.com
> Mr Rockwell is an absolute Nikon freak, and his site has a wealth of information on all things Nikon.
> Just a thought.


Ken Rockwell is an absolute , you would be far better of getting any info from

www.bythom.com


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## -ROM- (Feb 23, 2007)

IGADIZ said:


> Before you take the plunge, you may want to take a look at this site. http://www.kenrockwell.com
> Mr Rockwell is an absolute Nikon freak, and his site has a wealth of information on all things Nikon.
> As for the lens above, be aware that the focusing speed and image quality of the Tamron are nowhere near as good as the Nikon lenses, buy accordingly to what you want to shoot.
> Just a thought.


I have both the nikkor 17-55 and the tamron 17-50 and you would be very suprised how close they are in terms of image quality! Build wise, yes they are worlds apart.


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## IGADIZ (May 21, 2006)

rmorgan84 said:


> Ken Rockwell is an absolute , you would be far better of getting any info from
> 
> www.bythom.com


Although I wholeheartedly agree with your opinion of Mr Rockwell, I do have to admit he is one of the few people on the net that can afford to buy new equipment all the time.
He is incredibly biased and not a good photographer (his advice on how to obtain good images is just laughable).
But.. (and it is a big But) he does Love his Nikon stuff, so is a good place to start.


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## IGADIZ (May 21, 2006)

rmorgan84 said:


> I have both the nikkor 17-55 and the tamron 17-50 and you would be very suprised how close they are in terms of image quality! Build wise, yes they are worlds apart.


I´ll have to take your word for it (and there is no reason to doubt you).
I can only comment on my experience of canon fit Tamron lenses, which IME have invariably failed to live up to their Canon counterparts.
But your millage may vary.


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## -ROM- (Feb 23, 2007)

i think the biggest problem with third party lenses is the quality control i have a very good copy of the 17-50, but i imagine there as just as many bad copies out there as there are good.


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## dsolds (Feb 13, 2008)

Rich

Left you a message but you might want to consider this.

I have used both Nikon and Canon and both of them in 35mm and DSLR.

OK, canon first as they're my second choice here. Good build quality, quite rugged and robust, reasonable amount of aftermarket kit for them, Great photographs. 
The 2 downers for me are REASONABLE amount of aftermarket kit and questionable trade in value if you decide to upgrade the body.

To Nikon then. Great build quality, very tough, loads of aftermarket kit for them (more lenses than Canon fit) and good trade in values. Photograph quality is at least as good as Canon (I think a little better in the hands of a real pro so you and I will not get those results). The only downer with Nikon is the cost. They are never among the cheapest but then, quality rarely comes cheap. Plus I think there's a bit of paying to have Nikon written on it 

Your questions about resolution are kind of moot really. My D300 and my S3 Pro are supposedly similar resolutions. However, the results are not at all similar. The Nikon out performs the Fuji in almost every respect, mainly due to the Nikon being native 12MP and the Fuji being interpolated. Nikon use a CMOS sensor and Fuji use a CCD. There are arguments about which is better and after reading many articles I still don't know which technology is ACTUALLY better, all I know is the CMOS gives nicer photos. Put it another way, a 6MP DSLR will always give nicer results than a 10MP compact so don't just go on the MP figure. Lense technology has a great deal to do with quality as well; the facts are that a compact lense is only ever going to be a compromise and thus, to a lesser degree, cheap SLR lenses will never give as good results as the more expensive brands. Lense cost is not an exclusive guide to how good the lense actually is but it is a reasonable indicator to begin with. Quality costs money to make.

Which brings me nicely to the next point. If you can afford it, the 18-200 is a FANTASTIC lense. No other way to describe it. Sigma also do a similar item for less cash but personally I feel the Nikon is worth the extra.

As for all the other contenders, yes, they are worthy units in their own right, Pentax, Olympus etc etc. The main drawback is the distinct lack of choice in the kit you can buy to go with them. Thus s/h values will be affected. Now this COULD be a good thing for you if you don't mind taking a punt on a Feebay item. Low cost so not too much risk if you decide to bin it later on.

HTH

Dom


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## Rich @ PB (Oct 26, 2005)

Oh dear... today I felt compelled to spend some money! Some serious money too! Details up next week when it all arrives. Let's just say that this week's fun playing with a D300 and an 18-200 VR was a revelation.


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## -ROM- (Feb 23, 2007)

come on what did you get????


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## Rich @ PB (Oct 26, 2005)

Oh go on then; I got on with the borrowed D300 really well, and found it easy enough to get to grips with (200+ test shots confirmed this!) at a basic level. Considering this is a work purchase, and thus a capital investment, I decided that buying a D300 now and taking the time to learn to use it makes more sense than buying a D80 and then wanting to upgrade within a year or two. My past experience with old SLR's should serve me well, and I'm a fast learner, so hopefully it won't be long before I'm fully up to speed.

The 18-200 lens is impressive and very tempting as one lens wonder, but for use in the studio I found I could have done with a slightly wider view for full frame shots, and lens creep was a bit annoying when shooting downwards from highish angles. Thus, I have decided to opt for the 16-85 VR as my day to day lens, and in time I'll get myself a 70-300 VR to extend my top end if the need arises. I think I've stepped onto a slippery slope!


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## dubnut71 (Jul 25, 2006)

Its crack cocaine but worse when it comes to the amount of money you can spend Rich....

But look on the bright side, as it was a business purchase (capital cost) then you can depreciate it over 3 yrs, write the whole lot off and replace it in yr 4 !!!!!!


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## swiftshine (Apr 17, 2008)

flanker said:


> Sound advice!
> People will either say Canon or Nikon depending on their
> preference, me included, but the best way is to go into a good camera shop and play with as many cameras as it takes untill you decide.
> 
> Then buy online and save pounds:lol:


In my experience Jessops wil price match the best price you can find online for most things (lenses, tripods, bags etc). I think it's good to keep the local shop going as long as they give me best price.


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## JasonRS (Aug 8, 2006)

Jessops have stopped the price matching now, as they were getting shafted.

On local shops, I've been into my local independant half a dozen times in the last month for little things, and they've had none of them, this is ranging from a neck strap to a sensor cleaning kit, and a hot shoe pc sync adaptor. In the future, I'm not going to bother with them, as they now only seem to be stocking compacts, entry level DSLR's and a few budget lenses.


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## Rich @ PB (Oct 26, 2005)

dubnut71 said:


> Its crack cocaine but worse when it comes to the amount of money you can spend Rich....
> 
> But look on the bright side, as it was a business purchase (capital cost) then you can depreciate it over 3 yrs, write the whole lot off and replace it in yr 4 !!!!!!


Lol, yep, and I get all of the VAT back too! Good thing I've totally given up on ever owning a nice car as I'm already eyeing up a new tripod! And last month I blew a pile on an Interfit/Lastolite studio setup for photographing the products in the store (next big project). Slippery slope indeed...


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## flanker (Feb 18, 2008)

swiftshine said:


> In my experience Jessops wil price match the best price you can find online for most things (lenses, tripods, bags etc). I think it's good to keep the local shop going as long as they give me best price.


Tried Jessops today for a Canon 50mm lens hood.
"Sorry sir, we don't stock those. We could order you one...it'll take about 12
weeks."
" No, that's fine, I'll try somewhere else."
*12 weeks?*
That can't be right?...can it?


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## silver bmw z3 (Apr 30, 2007)

Rich, I always thought your store photos were quite good - how did you do them previously?


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## rob750 (Apr 17, 2006)

You will love the d300 it is an excellent Camera , Have a look at Nikon.co.uk and the training available


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## Rich @ PB (Oct 26, 2005)

silver bmw z3 said:


> Rich, I always thought your store photos were quite good - how did you do them previously?


Just a Fuji Finepix compact, but always used on manual mode. When my last compact died when I was on hols in Florida, I got another, but it turned out the manual mode wasn't fully manual... and this has really hampered me when it comes to product photography, hence now the decision to do things better from now on!


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## dsolds (Feb 13, 2008)

WX51 TXR said:


> Oh dear... today I felt compelled to spend some money! Some serious money too! Details up next week when it all arrives. Let's just say that this week's fun playing with a D300 and an 18-200 VR was a revelation.


hahahahahahaha. Addictive isn't it. How did I know you would end up with a D300 once you had played with one???

Now, a serious note for Ange... I am truly sorry and remorseful. It was indeed foolish of me to put temptation in Rich's way. Please accept this as a sincere expression of my deepest regret for such irresponsible actions. And if you can find it in your heart to forgive me??? Well, at least don't spit in my orders please


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