# Expensive wax vs normal wax



## Paul S (Jan 27, 2015)

We can't help but notice the cost of some pots of wax, so how much better if at all are they than AG HD wax which I use and have been happy with? I have a good understanding of the complete finishing process having been a sprayer (not automotive though) for 20+ years, and full gloss colour/clear is all about thorough prep and understanding materials (and a decent gun helps), but I'd like to know how a £200 wax may differ to a £40 pot and a £1000 pot :doublesho??

Thanks in advance!


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## AndyA4TDI (May 7, 2012)

Oh dear , can of worms time

My view, if you can afford it, buy it, the top end waxes come in stunningly designed pots etc and are great if you are an avid collecter

High end waxes don't always give any greater performance or looks than a wax for say £20, my opinion only


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## Clancy (Jul 21, 2013)

In my opinion it doesn't, they put it in a fancy expensive pot and charge a fortune because someone will pay it, they have the money to spend and think it's better 

I can't see how a £400 odd wax will make a significant difference compared to a £40 one


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## Mark R5 (May 21, 2013)

Whilst I can't really answer your question as the most expensive wax I have ever used is AF Illusion which I bought off someone on here. It has been an excellent wax.

Having said that, Dodo Juice SNH wax at £26 for 200ml (when I bought it) was also excellent. It is durable and I have only just finished the pot after 2 and a bit years. 

However, I do have a pot of Scholl Concepts The Rock which is by far the most expensive wax I've got. I've yet to use it. I am considering selling it, but I am also considering testing it with a lesser expensive wax. Undecided at present.


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## Mark R5 (May 21, 2013)

Oh and please can we not have a pop at each other. If people wish to spend £1000 on a pot of wax that is purely their business. By all means pass your comment and opinion but let's not get personal.


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## suspal (Dec 29, 2011)

AndyA4TDI said:


> Oh dear , can of worms time
> 
> My view, if you can afford it, buy it, the top end waxes come in stunningly designed pots etc and are great if you are an avid collecter
> 
> High end waxes don't always give any greater performance or looks than a wax for say £20, my opinion only


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## Guest (Feb 9, 2015)

I have learnt lots from reading the posts on this site.I have also learnt that the detailing world is as much a fashion industry as many others.Brands come and go...but the old classics remain.For me,the only difference between waxes is...how easy is it to use and how long does it last (excluding the swirl hiding type products).
You pay your money and make your choice...if you believe that a certain wax will make the colour of your car look different or a wax has been tailored to your paint system...go for it.


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## Paul S (Jan 27, 2015)

Mark ST said:


> Oh and please can we not have a pop at each other. If people wish to spend £1000 on a pot of wax that is purely their business. By all means pass your comment and opinion but let's not get personal.


Absolutely! And thanks for the prompt replies gents. I'm only interested in results but am curious more than anything about premium products. As I said earlier, I spend most of my time prepping for the next stage, and HD has been great to use and beads well, is so smooth I can't actually feel it!

After a deluge last week..


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## suspal (Dec 29, 2011)

If you got the money spend it,like the old say cut your cloth accordingly.


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## Ads_ClioV6 (Apr 27, 2014)

its an obsession like shoes,cars whatever interest you,im happy spending money on waxes,even though people think im mad,its nice having a collection of waxes regardless of cost etc are my feelings -_-


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## cheekymonkey (Mar 15, 2008)

its upto the individual its there money, have tried loads of waxes and my favorite can be bought for about £20. If i had the spare money to try another expensive wax i would


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## cheekymonkey (Mar 15, 2008)

suspal said:


> If you got the money spend it,like the old say cut your cloth accordingly.


After you cut the cloth does it need wetting before you use


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## ScottHannah (Dec 28, 2012)

I can understand having expensive wax if you're a professional detailer because for example if a customer comes in with a Ferrari and you offer to put on a £20 wax or a £200 wax they will go for the more expensive one thinking it's better but for just a hobbyist cheap waxes such as fusso etc is good enough as I can't see any difference in the finish/durability.


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## suspal (Dec 29, 2011)

cheekymonkey said:


> After you cut the cloth does it need wetting before you use


Whatever floats your boat.


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## cheekymonkey (Mar 15, 2008)

suspal said:


> Whatever floats your boat.


didnt see the guitar at first:lol:


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## Dougnorwich (Jun 27, 2014)

Not a avId wax user more sealants but it's the same thing

I bought £100 of sealants and I didn't think it was any better than my £6 100ml of my old favorite so I sold it all

Using BMD taurus at the mo and I like the way it's so easy to use and I was feeling flush when I bought it

I still think that the best shine is by polishing well I don't think anything adds that much to the shine it just protects whats already there 

But I'll still dabble about


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## SiGainey (Jan 29, 2006)

There was a test on here a few years back with a black car that had been properly prepared and polished and a range of waxes applied. From what I remember, there was two shades of jack all difference, any variance was very subtle if any at all, so it all comes down to your choice on how much money you wanted to spend on something that didn't make a significant difference. Sorry, I meant, how much you wanted to spend on the wax


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## cheekymonkey (Mar 15, 2008)

ScottHannah said:


> I can understand having expensive wax if you're a professional detailer because for example if a customer comes in with a Ferrari and you offer to put on a £20 wax or a £200 wax they will go for the more expensive one thinking it's better but for just a hobbyist cheap waxes such as fusso etc is good enough as I can't see any difference in the finish/durability.


but what if you own a Ferrari and do it yourself. Do you use the £200 wax or the £20,


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## zim117 (Nov 9, 2014)

Some fantastic points of view here although if I have chance I will buy some swissvax just to know that I have lol but with everything I have read and done one of the best waxes money can buy are the collinite waxes IMO but I do like G3 super paste wax  just my 2 pence lol


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## stonejedi (Feb 2, 2008)

I personally think that "certain" higher price wax's are most definitely better then cheaper wax's,but how much is really cheap,£5 to one man might be like 5p to another.I simply love Zymol Glasur and always have,its just Quality with water sheeting that has to be seen to be believed but also love bmd taurus and obsession phantom both not being £20 waxs but are super Quality compared to lower priced wax's,and the members favourite collinite could not compete with their waxy loveliness but there's the rub right there,you really need to have tried them before you can make a comment to know what i am talking about.I have been using wax's at the higher end of the bracket for years now because to me they are definitely worth it.SJ.


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## adjones (Apr 24, 2013)

"It's all about the... pots..."

Sorry but the main difference between a good mid range wax and an expensive wax is the marketing, packaging and how much the brand laughs at you when you buy it. Each to their own and we know that girls do the same, but I'll save my money and leave others to spend their money on diamonte encrusted pots


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## Pittsy (Jun 14, 2014)

I would like to try an 'expensive' wax just to see what it's like but at the end of the day I have got other things to spend that sort of money on and I am as tight as a sharks ass. 
Alot of my friends and colleagues play golf and happily spend £300 on a single golf club... It doesn't make them any better at golf but it makes them feel good so why not? 
The other thing is there has to be a law of diminishing returns where a certain price point is reached the performance becomes no better. :thumb:
Just my thoughts but as said before if you've got the cash why not, it's better than spending it on drugs, booze and jaffa cakes


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## m500dpp (Feb 17, 2006)

It's really up to the individual, but I will spend more time polishing and put any of my LSPs on top depending on what I feel like. When I first started I bought some P21s and Pinnacle Souveran, smelt nice but total waste of time and money, they last about 24 hours!

I found an old tub of Turtlewax ICE and gave it a try for a laugh - beading is fantastic and durability good, but not very easy to apply.

I am now using Topaz and wont bother with anything else, its excellent and easy to use.

If others want to convince themselves that a £100 pot of wax is better thats their prerogative.


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## Megs Lad (Nov 27, 2012)

I've tried expensive waxes and sealants the way I look at it is I like to wax my car same as I enjoy washing it so in all fairness I'm not really after a wax with 6months durability there's no fun in waxing your car twice a year :detailer:


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## Pittsy (Jun 14, 2014)

stonejedi said:


> I personally think that "certain" higher price wax's are most definitely better then cheaper wax's,but how much is really cheap,£5 to one man might be like 5p to another.I simply love Zymol Glasur and always have,its just Quality with water sheeting that has to be seen to be believed but also love bmd taurus and obsession phantom both not being £20 waxs but are super Quality compared to lower priced wax's,and the members favourite collinite could not compete with their waxy loveliness but there's the rub right there,you really need to have tried them before you can make a comment to know what i am talking about.I have been using wax's at the higher end of the bracket for years now because to me they are definitely worth it.SJ.


And you can always make your own eh Jedi?:thumb:


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## stonejedi (Feb 2, 2008)

Pittsy said:


> And you can always make your own eh Jedi?:thumb:


Well of course,part two of hulk smash should be ready weekend just raiding my nearly empty wax pots.SJ.


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## VW Golf-Fan (Aug 3, 2010)

I would always pay more for a more expensive wax such as HD Wax as opposed to a cheaper type 'entry wax' purely because I feel that you get what you pay for and by this in my experience, usually the more expensive wax is far more durable and better quality in general.


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## DLGWRX02 (Apr 6, 2010)

You also have to think about its not just the cost of ingredients these guys use to produce the wax, its the amount it costs for research and development into specifically designated waxes for different finishes that can have a huge effect on retail prices.


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## stonejedi (Feb 2, 2008)

Alot of the price tags for these waxs are a combination of two things shrewd marketing and last but not least a superb reputation for producing a quality product,you need to ask yourself reputation is one thing you cannot buy it has to be earned from positive feedback after using said product.I give credit where and when it is due.People in general are not that stupid you can't draw a Nike sign on a plastic bag and claim it's Nike and good quality it has to have the right ingredients and care while making it,hand poured etc... not just some chemicals that come out of a machine and dumped in a tin.there is a big difference,it's like saying Dunlop trainers are the same as Nike Jordan's for comfort because there both trainers/boots etc... well the truth of the matter is ,"There Not".SJ.


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## mexicandave (Feb 5, 2015)

An interesting one here, personally I’ve always found that some of the cheaper waxes actually clean the car more deeply as they are made up of a lot more petroleum distillate which will dissolve tar and traffic film, where as the more expensive waxes of course are made up of more wax whatever its origin, and therefore give a much deeper shine.

On my old Cossie I often found that a quick going over with a run-of-the-mill Turtle Wax would work a treat, but then I’d use something like Autoglym Super Resin Polish to increase the shine.

I’ve recently moved house and the previous owner had left a bottle of Tesco polish in the garage, and I thought I’d give it a go as all my stuff was still packed up in boxes, got to say it didn’t do a bad job on the Civic, but not sure I’d want to use it on a Bentley.

Have heard good things about Auto Finesse products so might try some of their stuff when the weather gets better.


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## bradleymarky (Nov 29, 2013)

I wonder what the "high end" waxe`s would cost if they came in a plastic bag instead of shiney pots.


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## Alex L (Oct 25, 2005)

waxes do nothing, it's all in the 4000 hours of polishing, jeweling, burnishing, ultra polishing, superfine jeweling etc :thumb:

Seriously though, from my personal experience expensive waxes do look better, but not always straight away.
With cheap waxes what they look like straight after waxing is as good as it gets. whereas pricier options can take a day to fully come through and even after washing the looks last longer.

But it's all subjective, and even though some people have show a difference in looks a lot swear they cant see a thing.

Theres a picture floating around here somewhere of a panel with several different LSPs and theres quite a big difference in looks.


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## Shiny (Apr 23, 2007)

To quote myself....



> Waxes are bit like watches. They all tell the time, some better than others, but you do feel good when you are wearing an expensive one.


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## DJ X-Ray (Sep 2, 2012)

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over
again and expecting different results.
Albert Einstein


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## Sparky160 (Aug 12, 2011)

The thing with the more expensive waxes (£70-80 upwards anyway) is that they contain much higher levels of carnauba content do they not? As a result of this surely they offer something that cheaper waxes generally don't? I for one do think there is a noticeable difference between a £20 and a £120 both in application and finish it offers. However, I can't imagine the gap being as large between a £120 wax and a £1200 wax. Afterall.......how good can you make a wax.


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## DJ X-Ray (Sep 2, 2012)

Sparky160 said:


> The thing with the more expensive waxes (£70-80 upwards anyway) is that they contain much higher levels of carnauba content do they not? As a result of this *surely they offer something that cheaper waxes generally don't?*I for one do think there is a noticeable difference between a £20 and a £120 both in application and finish it offers. However, I can't imagine the gap being as large between a £120 wax and a £1200 wax. Afterall.......how good can you make a wax.


Such as?


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## Zolasbackheel (Feb 11, 2013)

I see a lot of comments here about polishing doing all the work, surely a wax is not just about adding to looks. I'm pretty sure we all know here that the polishing stage contributes to 90%+ of the final finish but the wax is about protecting that and getting the extra 10% to the looks.

After spending hours/days polishing a car I want to use something that is easy to use, will add to the gloss, will bead nicely for a long time and will also just feel a bit special. Lots of cheaper waxes will do some of that but if you want it to do everything then it is going to cost more. Its a subjective debate as we all look for different things.


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## Sparky160 (Aug 12, 2011)

DJ X-Ray said:


> Such as?


Well I believe that carnauba gives you the warm glow you associate with a wax as well as added durability and sheeting ability. Also, when carnauba wax is harvested it's graded on it's purity. I'm not sure on this, but I would imagine for higher end waxes that the higher graded carnauba is used, then again perhaps not. It would help justify the higher price though.


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## DJ X-Ray (Sep 2, 2012)

Sparky160 said:


> Well I believe that carnauba gives you the warm glow you associate with a wax as well as added durability and sheeting ability. Also, when carnauba wax is harvested it's graded on it's purity. I'm not sure on this, but I would imagine for higher end waxes that the higher graded carnauba is used, then again perhaps not. It would help justify the higher price though.


Hmmm...R222 uses a high content of grade1 yellow (best you can get), £20 odd quid a tub, which is hardly re-mortgage your house prices, also Vics Red which is similarly priced contains one of the highest amounts of carnauba in the industry. For me it's all in the prep, but the point i'm making is that it's just marketing BS and unjustifiable afaic


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## stonejedi (Feb 2, 2008)

With all this talk about all waxs are equal,and pricier waxs are a waste of money,I am going to start a swap thread soon to swap all my high end wax's for this:








As it says on the bottle:_*(The Worlds Number One Shine)*_ Where have you been all my life "hubba hubba":argie:"NOT".SJ.


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## Paul S (Jan 27, 2015)

Thank you all for the civilised replies and helping to save some hard earned on a pricey pot! All of your thoughts are exactly what I suspected, after all using a wax on top of a high gloss finish at work is a rarity as I usually finish with either Farecla G12 or AG UDS, both of which are great polishes, (among several others eg. Ultrafina) but of course on the car we need that extra level of protection. IMO cash is better spent on a good polisher, rotary or random, and plenty of practise  :buffer:

Cheers all..


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## ChrisMEI (Jan 28, 2015)

It's the good old horses for course sort of speak, If you prefer using a £20 wax or a £200 wax who cares really. I'm sure all of us just want a wax that works for us no matter of the price. Should just be whats the best for the cheapest as personally I really don't want to spend £200+ on a wax even if it is the best 'Because I can' just something that I'm happy with and works for me 

I have a lot of testing to do as taking advice from different forum members and going to try a few a see what works thats the fun for me, Getting your hand dirty and enjoying trying new or different products


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## Wilco (Apr 22, 2010)

Just use whatever makes YOU happy, simple as that. If you don't want to spend hundreds on top end waxes that's fair enough but I don't think its fair to pass comment on those of us that do use more expensive products. As long as you're happy with your result that's all that matters surely. We all have different tastes in life and waxes are no different, what works for one won't work for someone else be it a £10 wax or a £500 one.


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## mexicandave (Feb 5, 2015)

An organised blind test at a show might be one way to sort this out, where as a panel is sectioned off and then different brands are tried and judged ?

Yes it would take some organising but would be interesting to see the results, and subsequent debate afterwards.


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## Ads_ClioV6 (Apr 27, 2014)

put a show wax say 70 notes eg illussion against a 20 pound wax say no more really,i started years ago on mer and autoglym,then as you get better and experience waxes to me the finish justifys the cost.Look at the wax makers here in the uk who takes years to develop 1 wax eg bouncers,obsession wax etc then try the stuff and the finish blows you away


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## Lowiepete (Mar 29, 2009)

I'd far rather spend my money on tools, but even these can be budget, if
the Serious Performance range is anything to go by. I have enough car
wax to last me at least another two lifetimes, but I don't think that will
stop me buying another. £40 is my absolute limit, though I'd spend more
on a glass coating. However, I'm holding out for the latest ADS wax...

Regards,
Steve


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## Lowiepete (Mar 29, 2009)

mexicandave said:


> An organised blind test at a show might be one way to sort this out, where as a panel is sectioned off and then different brands are tried and judged ?
> 
> Yes it would take some organising but would be interesting to see the results, and subsequent debate afterwards.


That's already been done here. Several different cars, same brand, same colour.
The resulting commentary gave wildly differing viewpoints, though the common
factor was that it wasn't the most expensive wax that came out on top. In
summary, the results were a bit ambiguous.

In the end, it comes down to personal choice...

Regards,
Steve


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## mexicandave (Feb 5, 2015)

Thanks for the heads-up Steve I'm a bit new on here so haven't had time to read through the masses of info on here.

Interesting to hear that it wasn't the most expensive wax that came out on top, but that doesn't surprise me.

Personal choice seems to be the general theme the more I read.


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## S63 (Jan 5, 2007)

Take one half hour before commencing.










Then it won't matter which wax you use.


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## chrisc (Jun 15, 2008)

They wont do owt ads fusso and finis cant do all for under 40 pound.
Apart from give you bragging rights on here and been able to tell all your mates.
Look at crystal rock when that was popular now most struggle selling it.


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## DJ X-Ray (Sep 2, 2012)

I'd even go as far as to say that even a wax manufacturer them/him/herself wouldn't even be able to spot their own product on a/my vehicle without a lucky guess, let alone the general population.


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## Lowiepete (Mar 29, 2009)

That big wax test...

Regards,
Steve


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## S63 (Jan 5, 2007)

Lowiepete said:


> That big wax test...
> 
> Regards,
> Steve


Now that's what I call a test, how many thanks did Dave get?......seven, how times have changed, he should have thrown in a freebie.


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## Lowiepete (Mar 29, 2009)

So, the summary answer to the OP, from this test, was that it's all in the eye of 
the beholder's wallet... 

Regards,
Steve


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## stonejedi (Feb 2, 2008)

.SJ.


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## Paul S (Jan 27, 2015)

Lowiepete said:


> So, the summary answer to the OP, from this test, was that it's all in the eye of
> the beholder's wallet...
> 
> Regard


In that case it's a thin smear of Brylcreem for me then.. :thumb:


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## adjones (Apr 24, 2013)

There are a lot of people talking about 'cheap' waxes and I think these are the ones maybe getting the wrong end of the stick. Yes, there are some really cheap waxes but the question referred to 'normal'. The difference between a 'cheap' wax and a half decent 'normal' wax is massive. The question is what happens between your decent affordable wax (say £40 for a pot) and a very expensive one. I would be willing to bet my life that the difference between a £10 wax and a £40 wax is much bigger than between a £40 and a £200 pot. Diminishing returns and all that.

People should also not fail to recognise that volume makes massive difference to price. (Being kind) Assuming that the ridiculously costly waxes are given as much development time as a mainstream one (which will sell thousands of times more), then the simple reality is that the cost of that 'special' wax will be much higher, even if the wax itself was identical. Do the thought experiment. Lets say it takes 2 hours a day, for a month, to get the wax right. That is 40 hours of scientist time. Lets say they are getting £50 an hour so there is £2k of development costs. For the guys wanting to sell it as a special, in a cut glass pot, they maybe will sell 10 in a year. So, if they want that cost written off in a year, there is £200 per pot just for development. Now, the same thing for a bulk manufacture. Now they are going to sell 20,000 per year - written off over a year and that is 10p development cost, per pot. More than this, I am seeing that a lot of the ridiculous waxes are from niche brands who, when you strip it back, are far from chemical experts. The bulk brands will certainly be employing such an expert because the CEO doesn't have time to do such silly things. In other words, there is often going to be better science in your wax, when coming from a bigger brand.

Sorry but expensive waxes truly are just never going to be justifiable in any discussion of money. Compared to a quality volume wax, you are paying through the nose and there is zero guarantee that the wax is either technically or, in use, superior. Everyone can have their vices and there is nothing wrong with that. But trying to justify this one for any other reason than liking to spend money on expensive things, is showing lack of touch with reality.


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## waqasr (Oct 22, 2011)

For me personally...All the shine comes from correct polishing. A wax, well in other words lsp is only there to protect the shine, stop dirt sticking and making future washing easier and lessen the chances of marring. Since the release of ceramic/quartz coatings, to me, a wax is now obsolete. The new coatings do the job of a wax far better and last longer so I dont see the point in waxing anymore. To be honest ive never witnessed this "warm" carnuba glow from a wax before and ive used many waxes cheap and premium.

But like i said, thats just me. Though I can see the idea of someone buying a special wax and using it on occasion for the special moments. Just not for me.


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## Tonie (May 26, 2014)

adjones said:


> I would be willing to bet my life that the difference between a £10 wax and a £40 wax is much bigger than between a £40 and a £200 pot.


Absolutely! The scale far from linear in a sense that a wax for 80 quid is twice as _good_ as one for 40 quid, but it is definitively different. I like to draw the analogy with copper (or any other metal). If you want it 99% pure or 99.9% pure, there is a huge price difference, but if it matters, it is worth it. And yes, it is both copper:thumb: Same holds for quality ingredients for waxes on top of development time of course.


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## Alex L (Oct 25, 2005)

DJ X-Ray said:


> Insanity: doing the same thing over and over
> again and expecting different results.
> Albert Einstein


The irony is stong in your post :lol:



Zolasbackheel said:


> I see a lot of comments here about polishing doing all the work, surely a wax is not just about adding to looks. I'm pretty sure we all know here that the polishing stage contributes to 90%+ of the final finish but the wax is about protecting that and getting the extra 10% to the looks.
> 
> After spending hours/days polishing a car I want to use something that is easy to use, will add to the gloss, will bead nicely for a long time and will also just feel a bit special. Lots of cheaper waxes will do some of that but if you want it to do everything then it is going to cost more. Its a subjective debate as we all look for different things.


Could you show proof of this mythical 90/95% all in the polishing.


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## Zolasbackheel (Feb 11, 2013)

Theres no proof on the figure but as an avid wax fan I know I am going to get far more from polishing the car than I would just waxing. I dont have any way of quantifying but to me the polishing stage makes the biggest difference by a long way.


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## Blueberry (Aug 10, 2007)

You can't beat the actual process of waxing though which is why many of us buy many many waxes of varying price ranges. A nicer presented wax and pot does add to the whole experience of applying it and would go some way to explaining why we all love to wax our cars more regularly than really necessary.

With regards to coating a car in many different waxes. You may not necessarily be able to SEE a difference (although I do believe that you do get different looks from different waxes) but you can certainly FEEL a difference as you lightly run your hand over the paintwork when multiple different waxes have been applied. We did this a detailing day and this was the thing that everyone noticed.


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## cheekymonkey (Mar 15, 2008)

Lowiepete said:


> That's already been done here. Several different cars, same brand, same colour.
> The resulting commentary gave wildly differing viewpoints, though the common
> factor was that it wasn't the most expensive wax that came out on top. In
> summary, the results were a bit ambiguous.
> ...


Sorry Steve but the realistic most expensive wax was the winner (best of show)


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## Ads_ClioV6 (Apr 27, 2014)

I better dig out my £2 asda smart price wax it outshines everything lol


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## cheekymonkey (Mar 15, 2008)

ADSCLIOCUP said:


> I better dig out my £2 asda smart price wax it outshines everything lol


you should of got it in the sale £1 and its twice as good


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## Ads_ClioV6 (Apr 27, 2014)

can it be layered though say on top of t cut?


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## cheekymonkey (Mar 15, 2008)

O yes


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## 123HJMS (Mar 13, 2013)

I personally don't believe you can tell the difference between lsps when applied to the car. But if people want to spend x amount on a certain lsp then let them do so. No different to people buying expensive cars or houses  :


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## MDC250 (Jan 4, 2014)

Have zero to base this on but I suspect up to a certain price point it must make a difference as in certain ingredients cost £x so to make a decent wax there must be a certain base cost if you like, granted influenced by volume/economies of scale etc. 

Beyond that it undoubtedly gets into packaging, marketing, brand etc but no harm in that nobody forces anybody to buy their gear.


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## year (Feb 8, 2013)

Brough & Howarth Wax Marble," the white-and-grey marble cube runs a cool *24,000 British pounds, or about $37,000 USD. *

The company claims the wax to be the rarest and most expensive in the world. Brough & Howarth'' Wax Marble is sourced from Athens, Greece, made of refined fruit oils, local Greek beeswax, and imported canauba wax from northern Brazil.


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## Alex L (Oct 25, 2005)

I do agree with that ^^^^^^^

Pure marketing, but good on them though :thumb:


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