# Car Crime: Are You A Target?



## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

ITV/STV at 19.30 tonight. 

I'm not sure how interesting it'll be, but I thought I'd give it a heads up considering all the recent car theft incidents.


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

Didn't really scratch the surface did it? 

Car theft is getting completely out of hand. Reading other forums cars are going missing far too often. It does seem like the Midlands and Manchester pop up far too often.


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## cossiecol (Jun 29, 2014)

It’s super easy to break into a car (my honours is on car security), the motor companies as a whole really need to look at this and work together in conjunction with key manufacturers to reduce the chances of theft, obviously this doesn’t cover breaking into a house and lifting the keys, but you don’t need keys in your hand to open the doors start it up and drive off with no alarms going off.


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## Tyrefitter (Feb 13, 2010)

They need to go back to keys in ignition instead of all this keyless entry & keyless start,,all that does is make it easier for the thief.

Andy


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## suspal (Dec 29, 2011)

A parent of a girl in my daughters class had a brand new Audi A4 S line stolen 2 weeks ago,which was sitting on their drive,the thieve/s broke the letterplate used a long hook to hook the keys of the side table where they had placed the keys.
When the police turned up they were told if they could find the car within 4 hours that's be the best chance,if it could'nt be found within that golden 4 hours the chance of getting it back were slim at best.
My guess is it's been stolen to order either for parts or it's in a container ready for shipping to an African counrty,last year a gang were caught stealing cars for that black market.
So best keep keys in a safe place out of sight!


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## kingswood (Jun 23, 2016)

suspal said:


> A parent of a girl in my daughters class had a brand new Audi A4 S line stolen 2 weeks ago,which was sitting on their drive,the thieve/s broke the letterplate used a long hook to hook the keys of the side table where they had placed the keys.
> When the police turned up they were told if they could find the car within 4 hours that's be the best chance,if it could'nt be found within that golden 4 hours the chance of getting it back were slim at best.
> My guess is it's been stolen to order either for parts or it's in a container ready for shipping to an African counrty,last year a gang were caught stealing cars for that black market.
> So best keep keys in a safe place out of sight!


thats grim but to be fair its old hat using the fishing rod. goes to show where the crims are getting smarter the old tricks are still been used.

the 4 hrs refers to them parking the car and watching it to see if its got tracker. noone turns up in a few hours and its straight to the choppers or docks as you said.

unless youve a supercar or highly diserable sports - S3 etc spring to mind - then the onus is on us to make it difficult for them. there lazy people by nature, crime is easier than work, so if the keys arent on show, or sta nav, bags in the car etc then the grim truth is they move onto some other mug :-/

stay smart and stay safe


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## Cookies (Dec 10, 2008)

Back in '97 when I had my 306 d turbo, a friend also had one, a 95 one I think. It had a keypad immobiliser in front of the gearstick, and you had to enter a 4 digit pin to be able to start the car. 

Modern day Ghost immobilisers are of a similar principle, where you press a specific sequence of steering wheel buttons to enable the car to drive. 

Cooks


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## ollienoclue (Jan 30, 2017)

Is it really that hard to hide your keys?


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## Caledoniandream (Oct 9, 2009)

I wouldn’t hide my keys, I put them out of sight, but I don’t want some idiot stand with a knife beside my bed.
If they want my car, they can have it, my loved ones and my life are more important. 
My wife knows if threatened just hand it over, no car in the world is worth to be hurt for.


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## LR4 (Oct 18, 2017)

All the technology in these cars and you can steal one in less than 60 seconds without needing the key (i.e. using signal amplifiers for keyless entry etc. Or going through the OBD port).

I have myself a Disklok on order - nothing better than a big visual deterrent.


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## Soul boy 68 (Sep 8, 2013)

Could something like this help?

http://www.ultimatecarservices.co.uk/obd-protection/


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## LR4 (Oct 18, 2017)

Soul boy 68 said:


> Could something like this help?
> 
> http://www.ultimatecarservices.co.uk/obd-protection/


For those cars easily taken by going through the OBD port then should work a treat - or at least slow them down.

There has been a couple of thefts from owners off the Disco forum I've on, one if which posted his CCTV footage.

2 people walked up to the car - put the drivers side window in and within seconds the alarm was disabled and within a minute the car was driven off....

However having the Disklok might at least put them off enough to move on without trying anything.


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## LR4 (Oct 18, 2017)

For those with keyless entry, may be worth keeping keys in a Faraday cage....

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4977134/Thieves-make-50-000-BMW-MINUTE.html


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## muzzer (Feb 13, 2011)

If they want your car that badly, they will get it one way or another and as someone else said, it's just a car at the end of the day and nobody's safety or life is worth risking just for a car.


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## LR4 (Oct 18, 2017)

muzzer said:


> If they want your car that badly, they will get it one way or another and as someone else said, it's just a car at the end of the day and nobody's safety or life is worth risking just for a car.


If they think it's going to be hard or put them at risk of being caught - they'll move on to the next one. There are plenty of unprotected cars for them to go for.


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## Grommit (May 3, 2011)

Caledoniandream said:


> I wouldn't hide my keys, I put them out of sight, but I don't want some idiot stand with a knife beside my bed.
> If they want my car, they can have it, my loved ones and my life are more important.
> My wife knows if threatened just hand it over, no car in the world is worth to be hurt for.


This.

Put your keys or whatever in a drawer in the kitchen, but don't have them coming up to your bed DEMANDING the keys.

Ultimately if they want it, they will get it.

I would be annoyed if they took my car, but its a car, ill get another one with insurance and these will be in jail.

The good times are in my favour :thumb:


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## donnyboy (Oct 27, 2005)

LR4 said:


> For those with keyless entry, may be worth keeping keys in a Faraday cage....
> 
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4977134/Thieves-make-50-000-BMW-MINUTE.html


How did he get the door open? My friend has the same car.

I've disabled keyless entry on the wife's car. Its easy to push lock/unlock on a key fob.


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## cossiecol (Jun 29, 2014)

donnyboy said:


> How did he get the door open? My friend has the same car.
> 
> I've disabled keyless entry on the wife's car. Its easy to push lock/unlock on a key fob.


That's an amplification attack, really simple to do if you have the tools


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## donnyboy (Oct 27, 2005)

cossiecol said:


> That's an amplification attack, really simple to do if you have the tools


It takes them time to start the car using the signal booster. He gets the door open easy though. Before the signal booster is near the house.

If the signal was strong enough to open the door, it should also let them start the car?

He reaches under the door it says.


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## cossiecol (Jun 29, 2014)

donnyboy said:


> It takes them time to start the car using the signal booster. He gets the door open easy though. Before the signal booster is near the house.
> 
> If the signal was strong enough to open the door, it should also let them start the car?
> 
> He reaches under the door it says.


The attack can work hundreds of feet away (apparently), although I've not tested this personally yet. As for starting the car, as stated above I've not tested (only read the papers) this method yet but the data being sent to the car would be different for starting it and opening the doors.


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## Rayaan (Jun 1, 2014)

Im sure there is a way to turn the fob off.

Lexus have this function and so do LR - although nobody tends to use it


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## ollienoclue (Jan 30, 2017)

The stats show that someone breaking into your house to threaten you is unlikely. It is one thing to be a car thief, quite another to commit a violent crime involving a weapon. Even professional car thieves are going to be hesitant to start entering people's homes in the dead of night, for starters, how do they know you don't have a gun or are the British equivalent of Herman Munster and knows how to handle himself? How do they know your wife/dog isn't really nasty?

If the car is that valuable then you need to gating and garaging the thing, and block it in with other vehicles. All of which would really irk me and probably erode the joy of having the thing for me.

As for leaving the house to try and stop a gang of thieves, sod it, it's insured, I don't care if its an FXX not worth life and limb in my book.


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## cossiecol (Jun 29, 2014)

Rayaan said:


> Im sure there is a way to turn the fob off.
> 
> Lexus have this function and so do LR - although nobody tends to use it


you can store the keys in a faraday box/cage/bag, turning off the fob would only mitigate the application attack - assuming it completely kills all signals from the fob, however it won't stop them if they have half a clue, it's simple to still gain access using different methods, bottom line is if they want to take your car then unfortunately there are plenty of ways to do this without entering the house.


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## 182_Blue (Oct 25, 2005)

Faraday bag and a system like Autowatch Ghost is what you need with keyless, i had a Ghost fitting booked for my RS , but engine went before i got chance !


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## MDC250 (Jan 4, 2014)

Soul boy 68 said:


> Could something like this help?
> 
> http://www.ultimatecarservices.co.uk/obd-protection/
> 
> View attachment 52536


Anybody know ballpark what this would cost?


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

On BBC's website today.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-42132804/relay-crime-theft-caught-on-camera

How easy is that?


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## cossiecol (Jun 29, 2014)

Kerr said:


> On BBC's website today.
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-42132804/relay-crime-theft-caught-on-camera
> 
> How easy is that?


Yeah saw that today, it's being shared with the car companies today (obviously lol). All you need is circa £200 for the devices and know where to get them....No real effort to do as well.


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## Mcpx (Mar 15, 2016)

Another Facebook post shared in my area today, 4/5 men banging on the door in the middle of the night and ramming another car out of the way to get to an RS. While the official car crime figures may be down it would seem that instances of violent or aggravated/breaking and entering crimes are becoming more common, especially in the very lucrative steal to order/desirable cars market. Every time car security technology moves on so does the technology for circumventing it, as I suppose it always will.


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## cossiecol (Jun 29, 2014)

Mcpx said:


> Every time car security technology moves on so does the technology for circumventing it, as I suppose it always will.


IMO the real issue is that although car security CAN move on it's doesn't necessarily get implemented, so you have the technology moving on for the crooks and static technology in the cars, only one way that will end. An example of this is a paper I read where researchers gained access to VAG cars manufactured between 1996-2016, and were able to decipher the algorithm in the keys! When the researchers raised this to VW via responsible discloser they were asked to not publish the method.

Another example was where a researcher compromised the immobilisers, only this time when highlighting it to the manufacturer they were served with a law suit.

IMO the motor industry needs to re-eveluate their methods and responses to security issues being highlight.

On the same lines, a certain car company still haven't responded to my findings for responsible disclosure which will be detailed in a security paper at the start of next year relating to gaining access to cars.....no idea why but servers to highlight my point.


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## Mcpx (Mar 15, 2016)

cossiecol said:


> IMO the real issue is that although car security CAN move on it's doesn't necessarily get implemented, so you have the technology moving on for the crooks and static technology in the cars, only one way that will end. An example of this is a paper I read where researchers gained access to VAG cars manufactured between 1996-2016, and were able to decipher the algorithm in the keys! When the researchers raised this to VW via responsible discloser they were asked to not publish the method.
> 
> Another example was where a researcher compromised the immobilisers, only this time when highlighting it to the manufacturer they were served with a law suit.
> 
> ...


I suppose if you look at it from the manufacturers point of view they probably spend 2+ years and £millions developing new models, including security features, only for it to be rendered obsolete within months of release. Same thing happens with virtual security in IT, hack, patch, hack, patch and so on. Physical security on a car is much more difficult and costly to upgrade however.

For me tha answer has to be to attack the source, kill the demand for stolen parts and exporting vehicles. If the business becomes less profitable, it might not be worth some of the risks that people are taking.


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## ollienoclue (Jan 30, 2017)

Mcpx said:


> I suppose if you look at it from the manufacturers point of view they probably spend 2+ years and £millions developing new models, including security features, only for it to be rendered obsolete within months of release. Same thing happens with virtual security in IT, hack, patch, hack, patch and so on. Physical security on a car is much more difficult and costly to upgrade however.
> 
> For me tha answer has to be to attack the source, kill the demand for stolen parts and exporting vehicles. If the business becomes less profitable, it might not be worth some of the risks that people are taking.


Exactly right. You eliminate the problem at source. It's organised crime probably operating internationally.


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## pxr5 (Feb 13, 2012)

I think a 2 foot metal spike flying up from inside the seat if you don't enter your 4 digit code withing 5 seconds of starting the engine would deter most would-be thieves. ;-)


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## tmitch45 (Jul 29, 2006)

Caledoniandream said:


> I wouldn't hide my keys, I put them out of sight, but I don't want some idiot stand with a knife beside my bed.
> If they want my car, they can have it, my loved ones and my life are more important.
> My wife knows if threatened just hand it over, no car in the world is worth to be hurt for.


You are right mate everything I have read says hide the keys from view from outside the house but that done and if someone brakes into your home make sure they are easily visible so n they don't have to go up stairs there your family are sleeping.


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## cossiecol (Jun 29, 2014)

Not often I'm left stunned, but today was one of those days. My supervisor for my security project was waiting on a call back from the manufacturer regarding the security hole I've managed to exploit, their response, from the PR department "I'm not interested"........

Needless to say he didn't leave it at that and they're now wanting additional details.

It shouldn't be this hard to disclose a security vulnerability to a car manufacturer! No wonder it's this easy to break into cars.


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