# Ebikes



## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

Is there much of an interest in ebikes on here? 

There's a lot of information out there, but even I found there was no real answers especially when the big question of range came up. 

I recently decided to modify one of my older bikes. It's a hybrid bike that is a few years old. It's a £600 bike and not anything fancy. It has 700c wheels with 30mm treaded tyres. 

I bought a Bafang 750w motor with a 850c screen and went for a 48v 17.5ah battery. It cost £760, but I do see there is some websites that are a bit cheaper. 

I went for the 46 tooth chainring, but for mostly road cycling I think I could have gone bigger. I can't pedal faster than 40mph. Mountain biking I can see the need for a smaller chainring. 

It's really impressive. Big hills no longer kill me. :lol:

The bike can cover ground at an impressive rate. A 30 mile cycle over the back roads of Aberdeenshire I averaged 23mph and had 30% battery left. I'm a big guy too so anyone with this setup should be matching or bettering these figures. 

Once the battery runs out the bike is a tough job to ride. There is an additional 13kg of weight, but the crank has resistance too. It's really hard work. 

What I have found is the standard settings of the controller are too strong. It was putting out 53% of the current on setting 2 of 9. Even at low settings I'm too fast for normal cyclists. It's about £15 to buy a cable that allows reprogramming of the controller. I'll be testing tomorrow to try and get the settings better. I've already changed the settings and it was easy, but not had the chance to try it yet. 

Installing the kit was easy. A little bit of bike/mechanical knowledge is required, but it's reasonably straight forward. The magnet for the wheel sensor was too wide for my bike. I used one from an older cycle computer. 

The battery mounting isn't straight forward. There is four holes and only two align up with the water bottle mounting holes. The battery weighs about 5-6kg so the weight is too much for the fine threads. Some people drill more holes in their frame. I've just used the two holes and using strapping for additional support. 

You'll need a few tools, but most kits include the tools. They are poor quality tools, but they do the job. The crank puller is mild steel and starts to mushroom on first use. 

The electrical part is so easy. The connectors are all colour coordinated and it's clear what goes where. 

It makes cycling faster and more fun. It also makes a bike a genuine commuter method without turning up sweating. 

I'm genuinely impressed with the ebike. I can see why they are getting more popular.


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## fatdazza (Dec 29, 2010)

Pics please :thumb:


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

fatdazza said:


> Pics please :thumb:


The zip tie around the battery has been replaced with an elasticated strap, but otherwise like this.

post pics

Securing wiring has been tided up too, but you're always left with zip ties.


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## kingswood (Jun 23, 2016)

ive ride a KTM one from my mates bike shop - was weird, straight up to 15mph but that was about it. 

they start at £2k I think so a decent saving converting your own


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

kingswood said:


> ive ride a KTM one from my mates bike shop - was weird, straight up to 15mph but that was about it.
> 
> they start at £2k I think so a decent saving converting your own


This one isn't limited to the 15.5mph limit. I think that is too low.

You're normally well over £2k for a good crank driven ebike. They are far superior to hub motors from what I've read.

Shop bikes are 250w, but this is 750w. I read some of the modern 250w motors put out 800w at peak. This one is 1400w at peak.

Shop bikes are also pedal assist only. The kits have a throttle where you can avoid pedalling.


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## fatdazza (Dec 29, 2010)

I assume you are aware that a power output of over 250 watts classes you as a motorcycle or moped?
So MOT, insurance etc. if ridden on the public highway?


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

fatdazza said:


> I assume you are aware that a power output of over 250 watts classes you as a motorcycle or moped?
> So MOT, insurance etc. if ridden on the public highway?


A bit like everyone on here knows 70mph is the speed limit? :lol: We all adhere to that on here surely? :lol:

I'm only keeping the power to weight ratio consistent. :lol:

As above the road legal ebikes are pushing out way above the 250w limit. It's an average they take.

The food delivery drivers are all in the city centers with faster ebikes or the ones that look like scooters and ride about without no pedal assist full time. Unless you're behaving badly the police aren't interested.


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## Caledoniandream (Oct 9, 2009)

Kerr said:


> A bit like everyone on here knows 70mph is the speed limit? :lol: We all adhere to that on here surely? :lol:
> 
> I'm only keeping the power to weight ratio consistent. :lol:
> 
> ...


Maybe true, but the moment you hit something or hit someone are you insured?
Are you covered as the assistance should cut out at 15.5 mph to qualify as a bicycle?
It's a bit the same as the E-scooters you can buy, they are not approved for the road, but I see hundreds of them going around (and I donor mean the rental ones who are on a Governement trail scheme) the police has better things to do, but when it goes wrong

https://www.standard.co.uk/topic/e-scooter

Be careful, it's fine and dandy to go 40 mph, but my bike brakes take a while to slow that down (yes I am too heavy) driving fast is not difficult, stopping quick can be.


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## kingswood (Jun 23, 2016)

Kerr said:


> The zip tie around the battery has been replaced with an elasticated strap, but otherwise like this.
> 
> post pics
> 
> Securing wiring has been tided up too, but you're always left with zip ties.


can u fit some hydraulic docs brakes on it?

v-brakes are abit 1990's!


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## muzzer (Feb 13, 2011)

I've tidied this thread up a bit to remove certain posts.

Anyway, just as a quick aside with regards to the motor and battery you've fitted Kerr, the wifes BIL had a bad accident on his bike that he modified himself (by buying in a battery and motor from China off Ebay) - kinda like you've done i guess - and when the police inspected his bike, they said if they had caught him on it, they would have nicked him because it was highly illegal. Just a thought.

I have to say though, you've done a good job with that old Cannondale :thumb: and as to the original question you asked, e-bikes are something i'm looking at for the future.


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

kingswood said:


> can u fit some hydraulic docs brakes on it?
> 
> v-brakes are abit 1990's!


The frame, forks and wheels are not suitable. It'd be a lot of cost to replace the parts.

V-Brakes aren't that old. There's still plenty of people using them and new bikes with them. The performance in the dry isn't much different and I'm a fair weather cyclist. :lol:

I'd still like my chances to outbrake a road bike with 22mm slick tyres in the wet.


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## fatdazza (Dec 29, 2010)

Thanks for clearing up the thread Muzzer, I wasn't aware that anything posted was against the forum rules, but then again it is against the forum rules to question a Mod's decision 

For info, I was genuinely interested in Kerr's project (hence the photo request) and started to search for the kit used as I was considering going down this route.

As part of this search, I came across the legality issue, and thought it would be helpful to share. Once I identified I would be breaking a number of laws, I decided this is not for me.


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

muzzer said:


> I've tidied this thread up a bit to remove certain posts.
> 
> Anyway, just as a quick aside with regards to the motor and battery you've fitted Kerr, the wifes BIL had a bad accident on his bike that he modified himself (by buying in a battery and motor from China off Ebay) - kinda like you've done i guess - and when the police inspected his bike, they said if they had caught him on it, they would have nicked him because it was highly illegal. Just a thought.
> 
> I have to say though, you've done a good job with that old Cannondale :thumb: and as to the original question you asked, e-bikes are something i'm looking at for the future.


You didn't need to remove his posts.

Some of the ebikes are outrageous. There's someone up here in Aberdeen who builds ebikes with 13000w. It's doing 70-80mph on throttle. It's effectively a motorbike with its speed and acceleration.

In the city centre there is loads of ebike delivery riders. Most of them are illegal. They are too powerful and loads are using throttles rather than pedal assist. Many have ebikes that look just like a scooter. They are never pedaling and are very heavy. They aren't a bicycle. I've never seen the police stop any of them. If they are behaving like other cyclists and not zooming about dangerously then the police are turning a blind eye.

750w is 1hp. It's a really good power level to give me a push on especially up hills. The road legal 250w motors can put out 800w. They are getting more powerful all the time. Bafang do a 250w motor, but the legal 250w ebikes are much more powerful.

The 750w Bafang motor is the popular choice due to the price point and it not being too fast. You're not going to stand out too much. It travels at the same pace as a very fit cyclist and single digit MPHs faster than an average one. It just makes cycling easy and the hills are smoothed out. It's the hills that kill me.

The 250w and 15.5mph caps have to be raised. When that happens, and the costs come down, ebikes will grow quickly in popularity.


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## muzzer (Feb 13, 2011)

I think i prefer the pedal assisted versions, my sorry behind needs to sort myself out and due to having pneumonia at the start of the year, my lung capacity is trashed and so a normal mountain bike/hybrid bike is going to be too taxing for the uphill from home to work.
The idea of being pedal assisted means i still have that opportunity to do some taxing exercise but i can get a bit of a boost. Who knows, i need to get my standard mountain bike out first i guess.


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

Caledoniandream said:


> Maybe true, but the moment you hit something or hit someone are you insured?
> Are you covered as the assistance should cut out at 15.5 mph to qualify as a bicycle?
> It's a bit the same as the E-scooters you can buy, they are not approved for the road, but I see hundreds of them going around (and I donor mean the rental ones who are on a Governement trail scheme) the police has better things to do, but when it goes wrong
> 
> ...


I could do 40mph on the bike before the motor was fitted. I live at the top of a hill that I can roll down not far short of that.

A scooter and an ebike are two different things. 15.5mph on a scooter with poor brakes and small wheels isn't the same as doing 15.5mph on a bike. The bigger issue with the scooters are they are being used on pavements rather than the road. There's also people modifying their scooters to travel above the limit. It is a limit for scooters as they are fully assisted.

The motor doesn't make the bike turn into a motorbike. It enables an unfit cyclist to travel at similar speeds to a fit cyclist. As above my average speed was 23mph over a good cycle.


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## Andy from Sandy (May 6, 2011)

Any electric bike that does not meet the electrically assisted pedal cycles (EAPC) rules is classed as a motorcycle or moped and needs to be registered and taxed. You'll need a driving licence to ride one and you must wear a crash helmet.

https://www.gov.uk/electric-bike-rules


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

muzzer said:


> I think i prefer the pedal assisted versions, my sorry behind needs to sort myself out and due to having pneumonia at the start of the year, my lung capacity is trashed and so a normal mountain bike/hybrid bike is going to be too taxing for the uphill from home to work.
> The idea of being pedal assisted means i still have that opportunity to do some taxing exercise but i can get a bit of a boost. Who knows, i need to get my standard mountain bike out first i guess.


Any bike you buy from the shops will be pedal assist only. If you just move the pedals the motor kicks in and you don't need to put in much effort.

You have the option of putting in 100% effort on top of the motor power. Most cyclist will manage over 15.5mph on a regular basis and be pedaling unassisted anyway.

I don't use the throttle much. Using the throttle uses a lot of battery power. You can forget 30miles+ range using the throttle a lot. It is very handy for pulling away from a standing start.


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## garage_dweller (Apr 10, 2018)

Kerr said:


> Any bike you buy from the shops will be pedal assist only. If you just move the pedals the motor kicks in and you don't need to put in much effort.
> 
> You have the option of putting in 100% effort on top of the motor power. Most cyclist will manage over 15.5mph on a regular basis and be pedaling unassisted anyway.
> 
> I don't use the throttle much. Using the throttle uses a lot of battery power. You can forget 30miles+ range using the throttle a lot. It is very handy for pulling away from a standing start.


Most ebikes sold through shops still require the rider to put in effort. Riding one is like having a permanent tailwind or a hand on your back giving you a gentle push along.

My wife has the boardman hybrid 8.9e and she absolutely loves it. We used to do a lot of cycling together but she hates hills, it's great we can get out together again and that level of assistance is all my wife wants. She still wants to exercise so this just helps a bit.

As for the brakes, discs are far superior wet or dry, I have bikes with both. And no one on a road bike is using 22mm tyres these days .

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## muzzer (Feb 13, 2011)

garage_dweller said:


> Most ebikes sold through shops still require the rider to put in effort. Riding one is like having a permanent tailwind or a hand on your back giving you a gentle push along.
> 
> My wife has the boardman hybrid 8.9e and she absolutely loves it. We used to do a lot of cycling together but she hates hills, it's great we can get out together again and that level of assistance is all my wife wants. She still wants to exercise so this just helps a bit.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yeah that's the part i would be interested in to be honest. There are some hilarious bikes with no pedaling required - is it Stealth mountain bikes? Made in Oz? They are virtually electric motorbikes and while they would be hilarious fun to ride, in my case i need the exercise but the added little push is perfect.

Thanks


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## garage_dweller (Apr 10, 2018)

muzzer said:


> Yeah that's the part i would be interested in to be honest. There are some hilarious bikes with no pedaling required - is it Stealth mountain bikes? Made in Oz? They are virtually electric motorbikes and while they would be hilarious fun to ride, in my case i need the exercise but the added little push is perfect.
> 
> Thanks


One of my neighbours, who's in his 60's and has just recovered from cancer, built one much like Kerr's. he gave me a shot and the thing is mental, it is motorbike like. Just felt like a very dangerous thing to ride on the road with.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## muzzer (Feb 13, 2011)

garage_dweller said:


> One of my neighbours, who's in his 60's and has just recovered from cancer, built one much like Kerr's. he gave me a shot and the thing is mental, it is motorbike like. Just felt like a very dangerous thing to ride on the road with.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Wife's brother in law did the same, some one left a wheelie bin full of bricks in the middle of the road, he hit it, went straight over the top and smashed his head into the ground - he wasn't wearing a helmet.

He never went back to work, was never the same afterwards due to damage to his brain. Sadly died start of this year due to lasting effects from the accident.

I'm getting away from the point, he pretty much did the same and used to take great delight in telling us how he could do 35mph on it.


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

garage_dweller said:


> One of my neighbours, who's in his 60's and has just recovered from cancer, built one much like Kerr's. he gave me a shot and the thing is mental, it is motorbike like. Just felt like a very dangerous thing to ride on the road with.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


It'll be a lot more than 750w?

I'm using pedal assist. I've very rarely use throttle only. It does drain the battery quickly. I can't keep up with Julie and a cycle together is no fun for either of us. Dragging my backside up the hills is tough going. I'm trying to configure the bike so I'm matching her.

It is for my fitness and not just cruising along on the motor.

I went out on the bike just now for a run. The settings I've picked are now too low at the lower settings. The choices are percentage of current and percentage of speed limit. It's a bit of guesswork to how it will feel like on the bike.

The battery takes a while to charge. With the basic charger supplied it's about 8 hours. There is faster chargers available. I'll probably stick with the slower charger to prolong the life of the battery.

The batteries aren't cheap. A battery of the capacity I've got is around £360 to buy on its own.

Here's Guy Martin trying one of the quicker ones. 





Here is another video of a guy riding his 750w motor on the roads. It'll give some sense of the speeds and efforts involved. I think a few people are thinking 750w is faster than it is.


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## Caledoniandream (Oct 9, 2009)

Kerr, my comments where not meant to take the fun away from the conversions, you are old and wise enough to make your own decisions.

I use to tune mopeds when I was 16, highly illegal, but a lot of fun.

Just pointing out as they are currently looking into the change of law regarding PEV (personal electric vehicle) to approve scooters, e-bike and e-motor bikes, single wheels bikes and self propelled skateboard, so guidelines including insurance and equipment could change a lot.

I love when someone works to make a given thing better, but also hitting a wall with a 45 mpg Solex (look them up) made me aware that improved speed doesn’t always match the chassis.
But nonetheless enjoy, 

Regarding batteries, if you keep them around maximum 80% and don’t drain them under 10% you will get maximum life out of them.
The slow charge certainly increases the lifespan and don’t charge it when the battery temp is close to zero or below, this cause damage to the battery and charger.


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

Caledoniandream said:


> Regarding batteries, if you keep them around maximum 80% and don't drain them under 10% you will get maximum life out of them.
> The slow charge certainly increases the lifespan and don't charge it when the battery temp is close to zero or below, this cause damage to the battery and charger.


It's just a basic charger. I've no way of knowing or controlling the percentage. It'd be guesswork.

I've already got range anxiety without giving up 20%. The bike isn't the best guide for percentage left either. I'll need to gain more trust and see ho far it'll go.

I done 30 miles again today and was at 30% again. It does drop off faster once below 50-60%.


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## kingswood (Jun 23, 2016)

Kerr said:


> The frame, forks and wheels are not suitable. It'd be a lot of cost to replace the parts.
> 
> V-Brakes aren't that old. There's still plenty of people using them and new bikes with them. The performance in the dry isn't much different and I'm a fair weather cyclist. :lol:
> 
> I'd still like my chances to outbrake a road bike with 22mm slick tyres in the wet.


im afraid they are that old my friend - I suspect you remember them well like me - and its because we're getting old we don't think it was that long ago!

quote from mbr: Shimano M950 group was first to feature V-brakes in 1996.

cld either try and sell the bike as it is or put that one back to standard and sell and buy another with disc brakes - hydraulic, not cable - if u ever fancied the upgrade


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

kingswood said:


> im afraid they are that old my friend - I suspect you remember them well like me - and its because we're getting old we don't think it was that long ago!
> 
> quote from mbr: Shimano M950 group was first to feature V-brakes in 1996.
> 
> cld either try and sell the bike as it is or put that one back to standard and sell and buy another with disc brakes - hydraulic, not cable - if u ever fancied the upgrade


I should have used the word outdated. V brakes and caliper brakes still come on new bikes today. There is no need for discs. The braking is perfectly good for use.

In the 1990s the common braking method was jamming the back wheel with your foot. :lol:


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## G.P (Dec 13, 2011)

Just out of interest, which UK based ebike forums are you all using/enjoying?


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

G.P said:


> Just out of interest, which UK based ebike forums are you all using/enjoying?


I'm not on any forums. I had a look around and didn't see any that were active.


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