# Tesla Model 3 Thread!



## ardandy (Aug 18, 2006)

Well as the resident DW EV geek I wanted to know if anyone on here will be preordering?

31st March you can pre-order in store, the next day you can preorder online.

I've already got the day booked off!  


I think I'm mad putting a deposit down on a car that at the moment I don't know what it looks like, don't know exactly how much it costs, no idea on options, colours and will have never driven it!

Hey ho! It's a fully refundable deposit so why not! :thumb:

2 year wait though!


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## Bizcam (Nov 19, 2012)

How much is the deposit?


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## ardandy (Aug 18, 2006)

£1000 more than likely. It's $1000 so seems probably.


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## fatdazza (Dec 29, 2010)

So if it is a £1000 deposit for a 2 year wait (and Tesla are notorious for being optimistic on their timescales). And in the unlikely case of Tesla going belly up, I imagine it would be cheerio to the deposit.


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## ardandy (Aug 18, 2006)

Very unlikely plus that's where a credit card comes in!


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## Paul04 (Jul 26, 2013)

I won't be pre-ordering but will go and have a chat about the model 3. My leaf is due for a change in September.


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## JBirchy (Oct 9, 2010)

I'll be taking a look with interest actually. I had a go in a Model S P85D Performance and was utterly flabbergasted at the performance and refinement of the thing.

My inner petrolhead doesn't like the lack of noise from the EV's, other than a short spell in a diesel Passat CC I've only ever owned petrol powered motors, but the performance is unquestionable.

Thing is I regularly do 350+ mile days, so this would take some careful planning and strategic lunch breaks where the supercharging stations are.

I'll certainly look at one, but don't think I'll be placing an order any time soon.


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## JBirchy (Oct 9, 2010)

Thought I'd just stick this up here for you my friend... Saw it on LinkedIn earlier and wondered if you might have seen it? They're saying this is the Model 3...

Personally, I think it looks even better resolved than the Model S. Lovely stuff!


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## rob28 (Nov 7, 2008)

If that is the Model 3...... Oh my. That's peaked my interest. I like that. A LOT.


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## Bizcam (Nov 19, 2012)

Looks smart. Any clue how much yet.


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## ardandy (Aug 18, 2006)

Prices start at £25000 after grant apparently. 

Will be revealed this month.


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## ardandy (Aug 18, 2006)

JBirchy said:


> Thought I'd just stick this up here for you my friend... Saw it on LinkedIn earlier and wondered if you might have seen it? They're saying this is the Model 3...
> 
> Personally, I think it looks even better resolved than the Model S. Lovely stuff!


That's one of a fair few renderings people have done that's out there


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## JBirchy (Oct 9, 2010)

ardandy said:


> That's one of a fair few renderings people have done that's out there


Ah I thought it was a real model, I'm assuming they're releasing it at the New York show next week?

Bloody good rendering, they've put different seats in it and everything! Most of the other renderings I've seen are basically squashed Model S's.


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## ardandy (Aug 18, 2006)

The reveal is on 31st March.


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## EliteCarCare (Aug 25, 2006)

It probably won't be much different to the renderings seeing as they're basing it on the Model S but a smaller size.

After personally seeing how many of the Model S they have imported (despite the price tag), these will sell like hotcakes!!

I would suggest pre-ordering as once they're on sale I recon they'll struggle to cope with the demand.

Alex


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## ardandy (Aug 18, 2006)

Some more:


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## ardandy (Aug 18, 2006)

Preordering will help but they've already said the specced up models will be delivered first. 

Also, any car over £40000 doesn't get the gov grant and will have to pay the +£40k new tax rate they're bringing in.


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## andy665 (Nov 1, 2005)

I have a good friend who works for Tesla Europe and I know exactly what it looks like - you won't be disappointed but it will be more than £25k


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## EliteCarCare (Aug 25, 2006)

andy665 said:


> I have a good friend who works for Tesla Europe and I know exactly what it looks like - you won't be disappointed but it will be more than £25k


It'll be more like £35k by the time it hits the UK and that's the base model. By the time you've added a few toys it'll be into the £40k region at least I would say!


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## ardandy (Aug 18, 2006)

andy665 said:


> I have a good friend who works for Tesla Europe and I know exactly what it looks like - you won't be disappointed but it will be more than £25k


Ooo, so do I, what area does he work in? Might be a small world. £25000 after the £4500 government grant.


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## ardandy (Aug 18, 2006)

EliteCarCare said:


> It'll be more like £35k by the time it hits the UK and that's the base model. By the time you've added a few toys it'll be into the £40k region at least I would say!


Elon Musk already stated it'll be less than £30k in UK. US prices start at $35000 before incentives.

http://www.techradar.com/news/car-tech/elon-musk-reveals-tesla-model-3-uk-price-1313970


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## Rayaan (Jun 1, 2014)

I wonder what interior quality is like. Even the Model S can match the likes of C classes never min anything costing more


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## andy665 (Nov 1, 2005)

Rayaan said:


> I wonder what interior quality is like. Even the Model S can match the likes of C classes never min anything costing more


I agree totally, the one I looked at was screwed together well enough but the quality of the materials was pretty poor in places, the leather was awful, shutlines wide and not consistent and interior plastics pretty shoddy


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## nick_mcuk (Jan 4, 2008)

andy665 said:


> I agree totally, the one I looked at was screwed together well enough but the quality of the materials was pretty poor in places, the leather was awful, shutlines wide and not consistent and interior plastics pretty shoddy


Really?? That is shocking considering the prices of the bloody things!


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## Rayaan (Jun 1, 2014)

nick_mcuk said:


> Really?? That is shocking considering the prices of the bloody things!


Yeah interior quality is nowhere near premium brands of the same price. For £60-70k you can get an S Class so essentially it is just paying for the electric tech


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## ardandy (Aug 18, 2006)

There has to be a compromise with something so 'new'. The interior I would say was of a £30k car. If interior was up to spec then car would be even dearer!

Model S starts at £50000


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## nick_mcuk (Jan 4, 2008)

Rayaan said:


> Yeah interior quality is nowhere near premium brands of the same price. For £60-70k you can get an S Class so essentially it is just paying for the electric tech


...with a fairly limited range too.

I looked into one but was rapidly put off by the cost per month...it was crazy money even with a hefty deposit put down....I could have done 2 days of commuting on one charge but for the sort of money they are asking I just thought this was pretty poor...couple that with the purchase price and it was a total non starter!



ardandy said:


> There has to be a compromise with something so 'new'. The interior I would say was of a £30k car. If interior was up to spec then car would be even dearer!
> 
> Model S starts at £50000


I am sorry thats rubbish its a £50k+ car pitching into the luxury market space having a sub standard interior is just not good.


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## ardandy (Aug 18, 2006)

I wouldn't call it sub standard. Would you prefer a starting price of £65000 instead? Going all the way up to £125000!

£15000 deposit would be about £450 pm for good spec on now. 

Anyway, forget the model S. Its the 3 I'm wanting!


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## Paul7189 (Nov 11, 2015)

It's the best build quality of an American built car. Which isn't saying much but at least it's got that going for it.


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## Rayaan (Jun 1, 2014)

ardandy said:


> I wouldn't call it sub standard. Would you prefer a starting price of £65000 instead? Going all the way up to £125000!
> 
> £15000 deposit would be about £450 pm for good spec on now.
> 
> Anyway, forget the model S. Its the 3 I'm wanting!


If its starting at £30k though, surely its going to have an interior worthy of £10k going by that?


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## ardandy (Aug 18, 2006)

No. The batteries are way cheaper, the cars not all aluminum etc, so although prob not up to Model S standard the savings are made elsewhere. It's also 20% smaller than the S.

You cant have the latest tech with relatively new systems etc without savings to be made elsewhere. 

Purchase price isn't everything with EV's though. I'm saving £140 pm month on fuel compared to my 50mpg Fiesta I was using before I got the leaf. The car is costing me £200pm. The way I look at it is car+fuel pm. 

These are my Leaf figures. Tesla will prob be similar for elec, maybe a little more.

£150 pm for car plus £170pm for diesel = £320pm
£200 pm for car plus £30pm for electric = £230pm


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## nick_mcuk (Jan 4, 2008)

What sort of mileage are you doing in that month though??

If I take my figures for Feb in the 208GTi it goes as follows. 

£100 pm for car
£188.15 in fuel 
1,625 miles covered 
£0.117 per mile
£6.27 per day

I think for the extra £58 a month I would stick with the GTI, plus in the long run the GTI is more environmentally friendly and by far less limited in its range.


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## Rayaan (Jun 1, 2014)

nick_mcuk said:


> What sort of mileage are you doing in that month though??
> 
> If I take my figures for Feb in the 208GTi it goes as follows.
> 
> ...


Also, I wonder what the depreciation is like on these things being so new as well. It might actually end up costing the same or more if its hit by heavy depreciation


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## Paul7189 (Nov 11, 2015)

Depreciation shouldn't be too bad. If you buy a used tesla from the dealers regardless of age and mileage you get a 4 year - 50000 mile warranty with it. Also I imagine service costs are pretty much nothing and there is a lot less to fail an MOT on. With it being electric it's easier to change the batteries than an engine so it should be good for a while.


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## nick_mcuk (Jan 4, 2008)

Rayaan said:


> Also, I wonder what the depreciation is like on these things being so new as well. It might actually end up costing the same or more if its hit by heavy depreciation


Yeah they seem quite expensive to start off with too £19k+ for the Nissan Leaf in mid spec and there was something mentioned about the battery not bring included and you have to lease/rent that (didn't have time to read it fully)

Whilst I do applaud the technology advances I do think electric cars really have a long way to go before they take over.

The second hand values will indeed be interesting as there won't be any "kicker" grants and what is the life of the batteries. The other point is if you do have to "lease" the battery from the manufacturer does that mean that you would have to be tied in to them?


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## ardandy (Aug 18, 2006)

Leafs loses a huge amount in depreciation. That's why after 2 years I'm handing mine back. 

I do about 25k a year.


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## ardandy (Aug 18, 2006)

You can buy a non batt leased 2 year old leaf for about £9500! Very cheap second car! Bloody bargain!


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## nick_mcuk (Jan 4, 2008)

ardandy said:


> You can buy a non batt leased 2 year old leaf for about £9500! Very cheap second car! Bloody bargain!


Wow that is a monster hit on the purchase price!! Damn I hope Nissan calculated and factored in that sort of depreciation in to the PCP deals 

Thats actually worse depreciation than a Range Rover Sport....Daaaammmmnnn!


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## ardandy (Aug 18, 2006)

My pcp payment at the end is more than the car will be worth. Deliberately on their part. That's why they're so relatively cheap. They're going to have thousands in a year or two. 

Probably a loss leader.

The price of my car was £16,500 after gov grant.


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## nick_mcuk (Jan 4, 2008)

ardandy said:


> My pcp payment at the end is more than the car will be worth. Deliberately on their part. That's why they're so relatively cheap. They're going to have thousands in a year or two.
> 
> Probably a loss leader.
> 
> The price of my car was £16,500 after gov grant.


Hahah £500 more and you could have had a 208 GTI!

They must be loosing big money on these globally but I am sure the variousl governments will be giving them money to help....


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## ardandy (Aug 18, 2006)

The gti would've cost way more to run! Mine was a financial decision above all else. 

25k a year it makes a massive difference!


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## nick_mcuk (Jan 4, 2008)

I am very sceptical...its a bit like all these folk converting cars to run on LPG...the ROI is a massive time scale if you are not doing like 30k+ miles a year.

Its all smoke and mirrors these electric cars are not Zero emission....unless you are charging them using a totally renewable source like solar or wind them the electricity is coming from a chuffing great big power station thats creating pollution...so whilst it may reduce the pollution in a city all its doing is moving it elsewhere.

Definite hokey-pokey going on and as I say I am very very dubious on the actual savings and run costs....Government grants have to come from somewhere so whilst you might get £X,XXX back for buying one that money will be being charged back to you in taxes elsewhere. Plus we all know how "generous" car manufactures are with their MPG and emissions figures  

As I say I applaud the advancements in the tech but is still wayyyyy off being reliable and consistent enough to be a genuine threat to petrol/derv.

You do 25k a year in the Leaf...you must spend half your life sat waiting for it to charge up even if you are getting the suggested 175 miles range....whats that charge time costing in productivity for your business/work??

By the way none of this is having a poke its my thoughts and me asking you about it


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## ardandy (Aug 18, 2006)

I do up to 80 miles a day. My wife uses it too. All charging is done at home so never had to wait. Done the odd 660 mile trip too that cost me nothing!

My home charger records the amount and I've done 11000miles for £213 in electric.


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## ardandy (Aug 18, 2006)

nick_mcuk said:


> As I say I applaud the advancements in the tech but is still wayyyyy off being reliable and consistent enough to be a genuine threat to petrol/derv.


Reliability is way ahead of petrol/derv. The new leaf comes with 7 year warranty, that includes the battery. Teslas now come with 8 year unlimited warranty.


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## Paul7189 (Nov 11, 2015)

I think it's definitely the way forward although my Land Rover does 8mpg on the motorway so maybe I'm a bit biased. Also tesla are bringing out a power system that charges from your solar panels and can power your home even in the uk. Then you can use that to charge your car and you are really running zero emissions and for free (once the cost of the panels and batteries has been recovered).

https://www.teslamotors.com/en_GB/powerwall


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## ardandy (Aug 18, 2006)

The main idea of the powerwall if you don't have solar is that it will charge at night when it's cheaper (economy7) and release the power during the day. It takes the peak load off the grid and saves money. Not sure on the rti without panels though.

Also acts as power in the event of a blackout.


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## ardandy (Aug 18, 2006)

Just found out that some Tesla stores will be opening from either 6pm or 7pm onwards on the 31st March for preorders.


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## Rayaan (Jun 1, 2014)

ardandy said:


> Reliability is way ahead of petrol/derv. The new leaf comes with 7 year warranty, that includes the battery. Teslas now come with 8 year unlimited warranty.


So does every KIA though?! That doesn't mean its reliable, it just means its covered should anything go wrong.

If you look at Consumer reports, the Model S was not recommended down to its reliability (or lack of it).

_"The approximately 1,400 Model S owners surveyed by CR "chronicled an array of detailed and complicated maladies," the organization reports. The most prevalent complaints had to do with squeaks and rattles from the body, but respondents also mentioned issues that required replacement of the car's electric motors. Warping brake rotors and difficulties with the complex, electrically-operated retracting doorhandles were also mentioned by numerous owners. Other problem areas included inoperable windshield wipers, leaking battery cooling pumps, trunklid alignment, and suspension alignment."_

It goes on to mention 97% owner satisfaction, that's great and all but even the Nissan Leaf is more reliable than the Model S. It included hybrid cars too and the Toyota Prius was right at the top.

I guess Tesla is lucky that Toyota hasn't jumped on the electric bandwagon yet.


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## Caledoniandream (Oct 9, 2009)

I am following this closely, I like the idea of electric cars and the environmental gain of these cars.

I know the electricity has to come from somewhere, but it causes a much lesser carbon footprint to create in one central point the energy for 1000's of car, than 1000 car will produce.
Also big industrial emissions are much easier to control than every vehicle on his own.

It is a bit on the principle that you need 15 trucks to fill a supermarket, but it takes 5000 cars to empty it. 
And yes a truck does 8mpg, but carries 26.000kgs. 

The busses running on electric seem to be reliable, it's new technology to produce a car with such a power and still a reasonable radius.

When we realise the in the seventies combustion driven cars still regular broke down, with silly things like overheating and oil on the clutch and what not, than this new technology has come on in leaps and bounds.
It will pave the way for hydrogen generated electric driven cars.


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## ardandy (Aug 18, 2006)

Rayaan said:


> So does every KIA though?! That doesn't mean its reliable, it just means its covered should anything go wrong.
> 
> If you look at Consumer reports, the Model S was not recommended down to its reliability (or lack of it).
> 
> ...


As long as it's getting sorted under warranty I don't care. The fact they come with warranties well in excess of your average car speaks volumes tbh. Plus most of the problems were with the initial run of the Model S.


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

ardandy said:


> As long as it's getting sorted under warranty I don't care. The fact they come with warranties well in excess of your average car speaks volumes tbh. Plus most of the problems were with the initial run of the Model S.


What does it say when the average cars that offer better warranties are Kia, Hyundai and Vauxhall?

Not exactly the most desirable cars are they?

A lot of people have the opinion they are poorer quality and they need to offer something more to tempt people.

On Autotrader there's only 24 electric cars that have gone over 30,000 miles.

It sounds impressive offering huge warranties, but the fact is very, very few people are actually going to do loads of miles. Wear and tear is going to be lower for the simple fact the cars aren't used as much as average cars.

If the majority of owners were going to cover huge miles, it'd be interesting to see how the warranty would go.


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## Epoch (Jul 30, 2006)

I've done 27,500 miles in a Model S in the last 9 months, it's on lease for 3 years (120K)

Absolutely loving it for how it handles my journey so far, I really doubt anything else could even come close at the moment.

Will be really interesting to see how the Model 3 turns out


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## ardandy (Aug 18, 2006)

There are several taxi companies (google cyc taxis) that have got several well beyond 100000miles using nothing but rapid charging. They're all fine. 

People always mention batteries been a reason they are put off but with these warranties it doesn't matter.


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## Rayaan (Jun 1, 2014)

ardandy said:


> There are several taxi companies (google cyc taxis) that have got several well beyond 100000miles using nothing but rapid charging. They're all fine.
> 
> People always mention batteries been a reason they are put off but with these warranties it doesn't matter.


Im sure there was a very detailed report last year about how Tesla "knows" its batteries wont last past 60k miles and plans on changing them all when they start failing- doesnt exactly put your mind at ease does it?

Lets not forget that the original Tesla warranty was 4 years/50k miles. It was extended to ease customers to 8 years/unlimited.

77 out of the 250 sampled early Model S, have had batteries make funny noises and they needed replacing otherwise could cause failure. What happens after 8 years then? The value of the cars will hit £3k or something?

I refuse to believe they will be more reliable than something like a Prius (multiple Taxi's with over 600k miles on them and still running on original batteries, one has never had a single component go wrong!)


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## ardandy (Aug 18, 2006)

Can't compare a small battery hybrid with a full on EV that's got all the kit that has.

Early adopters have issues but if it's covered who cares?

Now they're way better.


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## ardandy (Aug 18, 2006)

Just rung Knutsford and he said although not finalised they will probably stay open til 9 or 10pm and take orders from 5pm onwards. Meaning the reveal will be after. So it'll be putting a deposit down on a car you've never seen. Fully refundable of course.


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## Rayaan (Jun 1, 2014)

ardandy said:


> Can't compare a small battery hybrid with a full on EV that's got all the kit that has.
> 
> Early adopters have issues but if it's covered who cares?
> 
> Now they're way better.


Well you can because arguably its harder to integrate a battery pack and a conventional petrol engine and get them to work together seamlessly.

Also, if you add up all the Toyota hybrids that have sold which is somewhere around 8 million it adds up to a lot more batteries than the Tesla. Therefore any substantial reliability issues would have more of an impact.

How many Tesla's have actually sold and not had a single problem? I doubt many.


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## ardandy (Aug 18, 2006)

Not a clue but I can tell you how many Teslas that have had problems and been charged to get them fixed. 0. Comparing a car that can almost drive itself and is faster than most other cars to a Prius is hardly comparable!


Oh and the initial 'warranty' argument was about EV's in general, not just Tesla. Leaf has 7 year warranty now and is super reliable. I said that EV's have far less to go wrong (1 moving part in Leaf engine) so they should be more reliable. Backed up by warranties that are far better than any conventional car. 

8 year infinite mile warranty with Teslas is unheard of. Do half a million miles and the battery (which most worry about) is still covered!


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## Rayaan (Jun 1, 2014)

ardandy said:


> Not a clue but I can tell you how many Teslas that have had problems and been charged to get them fixed. 0. Comparing a car that can almost drive itself and is faster than most other cars to a Prius is hardly comparable!
> 
> Oh and the initial 'warranty' argument was about EV's in general, not just Tesla. Leaf has 7 year warranty now and is super reliable. I said that EV's have far less to go wrong (1 moving part in Leaf engine) so they should be more reliable. Backed up by warranties that are far better than any conventional car.
> 
> 8 year infinite mile warranty with Teslas is unheard of. Do half a million miles and the battery (which most worry about) is still covered!


It doesnt really matter how fast it is or that it can drive itself (actually it cant because its illegal anyway) - but then so can a Merc S class if you touch the wheel every 10s and the interior blows the Tesla away and it has more than double the range. Tesla can't go anywhere over 200 miles if you use the power as well, its not like its guaranteed 250 miles or so.

What happens after 8 years though? No one will want it.


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## ardandy (Aug 18, 2006)

You can travel to southern France and back for free in the tesla. That's the trade off. 

After 8 years? Who knows. I'm pretty sure batt replacements (if even needed) wont be hugely expensive by then and a car that can do sub 4sec (2.8secs for some) will be in demand by some!


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## Paul04 (Jul 26, 2013)

From Twitter yesterday

Along with the excitement and anticipation for Model 3, we know everyone has a few questions. Here are the details so that you know what to expect both on March 31st when reservations open and in the months ahead before you take delivery of your Model 3.

Reservations for Model 3 begin on March 31st worldwide. Reservation amounts in each currency can be found here. There are two ways to make a reservation. The first, which will allow you to get a better spot in the queue, is to visit your local Tesla store when it opens on March 31st. Find your closest Tesla store here. The second is to make a reservation online at Tesla.com when the live unveil starts at 8:30pm PT.

In order to be as fair as possible, there will be a different queue for each region. And as a thank you to our current owners, existing customers will get priority in each region, meaning that the fastest way to buy a Model 3 is to buy a Model S or Model X.

Model 3 production is scheduled to begin in late 2017. When production begins, we will begin deliveries in North America starting on the West Coast, moving east. As we continue to ramp production, we will begin deliveries in Europe, APAC and right-hand drive markets. It is not possible to ship to all regions simultaneously because regulators in each part of the world have slightly different production requirements. Staggering deliveries in this way also allows us to provide the best possible customer experience.

We recognize that everyone wants to get their Model 3 as quickly as possible. Our overarching goal is to maximize total customer happiness within the bounds of what is physically possible.

Tune in to the Model 3 unveil on March 31st at 8:30pm PT on Tesla.com. We can't wait to show you what we've been working on.


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## ardandy (Aug 18, 2006)

That's 4:30am our time! 

Don't think I'll be watching that one live!


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## Rayaan (Jun 1, 2014)

ardandy said:


> You can travel to southern France and back for free in the tesla. That's the trade off.
> 
> After 8 years? Who knows. I'm pretty sure batt replacements (if even needed) wont be hugely expensive by then and a car that can do sub 4sec (2.8secs for some) will be in demand by some!


$20k for or a battery replacement apparently.

Although with that trade off how long do you actually have to spend charging the car up?


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## Clyde (Feb 15, 2012)

I spoke to Tesla when they were near my office recently. They don't recommend constant rapid charging of the Model S batteries as this can impact battery life. That said, the batteries charge the cells in a random order so the starting point is never the same two days running to prolong the battery life. Some very well thought out development in the Model S and as much as I'd love one the price is a bit out of my range. However, if they release a sub £30k car I'd be very interested.


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## ardandy (Aug 18, 2006)

Preordered this morning. 

Just got a 2-3 year wait now!


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## CoOkIeMoNsTeR (Mar 6, 2011)

Wow that's patience, I struggle to wait 3 days let alone 3 years!!! Hope it's good for you


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## clubber01 (May 29, 2013)

Any official photos and spec of it?


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## fatdazza (Dec 29, 2010)

ardandy said:


> Preordered this morning.
> 
> Just got a 2-3 year wait now!


So you have just handed over £1000 as a deposit for something you have not seen and which you do not know when you might receive?

I have some magic beans you might be interested in? :lol:


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## ardandy (Aug 18, 2006)

No, I handed a £1000 *fully refundable* deposit for a car I've never seen.


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## Will_G (Jan 23, 2012)

More info here

Tesla Model 3 pitched as an 'affordable' electric car
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-35940302

I know it's a mass produced vehicle but if that's the design they're going for its no inspiring personally. If they do sell them for around £25k then I guess it isn't too bad value for money though


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## Paul04 (Jul 26, 2013)

apparently they received 115,000 orders yesterday! Wonder how many will be sales?


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## nick_mcuk (Jan 4, 2008)

That front end is hideous....looks almost unfinished I know it doenst probably need it but it looks like they have forgotten to put a grille on it!

As for the deposit so far ahead this is a very clever ploy because it give a huge injection of capital into the company to hopefully begin production. I have seen the same technique applies by someone in the printing world...except his product is now looking very unlikely to go to market now.

Its all well and dandy them saying its a fully refundable deposit...if the company goes bust you are going to be out of pocket as you will be way down the list of debtors to pay.

Risky business...but I am sure it will be great in 3 years


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

I've lost count of the amount of people I've read people putting down on cars with no concrete details about them. 

There's even people putting deposits down at dealers for cars that haven't even been announced and are highly unlikely to ever be made. 

I just don't get why so many people are utterly desperate to try and be first whilst they are trying to second guess what might come next. 

I had a chuckle at the guy on the BMW forum who went to his dealer to place a deposit for a M2 CSL. The amusing thing was that for a car that there's no plans to make, he wasn't even the first in the queue. :lol:

As for that Tesla, it's not a pretty thing from many angles.


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## 182_Blue (Oct 25, 2005)

ardandy said:


> No, I handed a £1000 *fully refundable* deposit for a car I've never seen.


Is it refundable if they go under?



> But the firm still posted a net loss of $889m (£620m) for 2015, partly because it spent $718m on research and development over the period.


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## Cookies (Dec 10, 2008)

182_Blue said:


> Is it refundable if they go under?


If the deposit was paid by credit card, you'd have the protection offered by Section 75 of the Consumer Credit Act.

Cooks


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## muzzer (Feb 13, 2011)

182_Blue said:


> Is it refundable if they go under?


I read somewhere that they still have operational capital of 1.2billion dollars, down from 1.9 billion but still a sizeable chunk. Seeing as most things Elon Musk touches make bucket loads of money, i think the likelihood of them going under is slim.


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## nick_mcuk (Jan 4, 2008)

182_Blue said:


> Is it refundable if they go under?


They are taking a £4k deposit on the Model X SUV thing.....to say the website is vague would be an understatement.

I applaud the ingenuity but seriously it all seems like a bit of a "snake oil scam"??

I know its not but you would have to be nutts to part with that sort of money for something that doesnt even exist and has no launch date?!?!


----------



## fatdazza (Dec 29, 2010)

muzzer said:


> I read somewhere that they still have operational capital of 1.2billion dollars, down from 1.9 billion but still a sizeable chunk. Seeing as most things Elon Musk touches make bucket loads of money, i think the likelihood of them going under is slim.


So a cash burn of $700 million over the year? At that rate it is not many years (less than 2!) before he might need a cash injection.

He has made a massive bet on the success of the Model 3 and if it does not sell in the numbers he is forecasting, financial support will not be forthcoming.

He is aiming to sell 500,000 cars by 2020. If those sales do not materialise, he might want to board his spacerocket to escape his creditors!


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## andy665 (Nov 1, 2005)

I hope this is the breakthrough model for Tesla, if it isn't then I have no doubt it will go under as the losses are simply not sustainable - despite the fact they were virtually gifted the production facility 

It does seem to resemble the story of the Tucker Torpedo back in the late 1940's - great concept, a lot of public support and yet it still failed

I like Tesla -- they have disrupted the status quo within the industry and that can only be a good thing 

As for the deposit being secure - it is surely inconceivable that a company like Tesla would take potential customers money for a product they might not receive for 2 years and not hold it in an ESCROW account - isn't it?


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## Kimo (Jun 7, 2013)

That is hideous 

What's worse than an electric car? An ugly electric car


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## Rayaan (Jun 1, 2014)

Lol thats a really ugly car. Its like the unloved child of 2 Tesla model S'. 

It doesnt look futuristic - more like a VW beetle thats been elongated. Not impressed with the 215 mile range either, that's nothing! It says "under 6 seconds to 60", thats fine and all but then something like the Mustang can do that for the same money with a larger range and a more visceral experience (even if you get the ecoboost)

The interior looks worse - huge screen just sticking out from nowhere, no speedo in front of you etc etc

The only people I can see buying these are pensioners who dont really need/want to drive a lot. 

Hydrogen fuel cells seems more promising if they can build the infrastructure for it.


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## robertdon777 (Nov 3, 2005)

Compared to what its aiming at

3 series, A4, Merc C Class.

It looks like a massive step ahead and glimpse at what the future will hold. 200 mile+ range is 1 charge per week for the average user doing average UK mileage.

So £2 per week in fuel or £100 for the year to do 12,000 miles.

Much bigger interior space than any competitor too, ideal for families. 0-60 under 6....brilliant for the family man who still loves the odd burn up.

The only issue I can see.....Price: £23K in US.....£35K in UK.

It will still sell ok but imagine the sales it would get at £25K start price.


People commenting on looks etc. It never stopped the BMW 1 series selling shed loads and its much better looking than one of those.

I would imagine the big three German brands will be going full electric for their mid-size offerings soon. Although I'm sure Merc have something to do with Tesla anyway (all the bits and bobs on the Tesla S are from Mercs)


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## ardandy (Aug 18, 2006)

One thing people are forgetting is that it's still a prototype and its likely to have changes cosmetically etc. The front end of the Model X changed 3 months before release for example.

As for going bust? As said they have $1.2b in the bank and the reason they lost so much money this year was because they spend $800million on research and development and lets not forget the $5billion Gigafactory they are also funding. Very small risk in my mind.

Price will be below £30k according to Musk when asked and that is before any government grant which currently stands at £4500 here.

0-60 in under 6 secs for the *base model*! And Minimum range of 210 miles, again for the base model.

So the bog standard version is as quick as a Golf GTI and costs less than an Eco fiesta to run! Also comes with 8 year infinite mile warranty (assuming same as current Teslas).

Have you seen the Autopilot feature? This alone makes me want one!


----------



## ardandy (Aug 18, 2006)

The actual reveal.


----------



## ardandy (Aug 18, 2006)

Inside:


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## fatdazza (Dec 29, 2010)

ardandy said:


> One thing people are forgetting is that it's still a prototype and its likely to have changes cosmetically etc. The front end of the Model X changed 3 months before release for example.
> 
> As for going bust? As said they have $1.2b in the bank and the reason they lost so much money this year was because they spend $800million on research and development and lets not forget the $5billion Gigafactory they are also funding. Very small risk in my mind.
> 
> ...


Very small risk? I really think you are living in cuckoo land. Money does not grow on trees, and a business has to sell something to survive. If he cannot achieve the sales, how can he repay his backers? People have lent him money on the promise of a return. If the sales don't materialise, then the backers will soon pull their funds.


----------



## Rayaan (Jun 1, 2014)

ardandy said:


> One thing people are forgetting is that it's still a prototype and its likely to have changes cosmetically etc. The front end of the Model X changed 3 months before release for example.
> 
> As for going bust? As said they have $1.2b in the bank and the reason they lost so much money this year was because they spend $800million on research and development and lets not forget the $5billion Gigafactory they are also funding. Very small risk in my mind.
> 
> ...


He won't be able to get it under £30k. Its showing as $35000 for the base model. By the time it gets to the UK with all duties, VAT etc it'll be around £35000 for the base model.

The minimum range is genuinely ****. A Golf GTI can do more than that. How are you supposed to take it on long runs without planning.

Lets say I live in Leeds and my parents live in London - providing I can make it on one charge (Tesla quoted 265 miles for the Model S yet in real world driving it achieved 200 in my hands), Id need somewhere to charge it when I am in London. Thats not a problem you say, multiple charging points in London!! However, its a faf walking or getting public transport 2-3 miles from where I parked the car to charge to my parents!?

God forbid you end up in a 2 hour traffic jam on the M1 and the charger is "offline" :lol:

On the Model S the Autopilot is a £2650 option. Id imagine that will either stay the same or increase for the Model 3.

Besides, its nothing that great - even Merc, Audi, Lexus, Jaguar and Ford do these things at a cheaper price

The way I see it, the Tesla one is unsafe in that you don't have to hold the steering wheel - what if the markings suddenly get bad and because you're not paying 100% attention it keeps going straight on at a turn?!


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## ardandy (Aug 18, 2006)

Tesla superchargers are ultra reliable and all over the place! When you're in traffic you don't use electric.

As for sales, they've hit 150000 in 24 hours. Name another car manufacturer that's had that success for preorders!


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## andy665 (Nov 1, 2005)

ardandy said:


> As for sales, they've hit 150000 in 24 hours. Name another car manufacturer that's had that success for preorders!


Not quite - they have had 150.000 deposits - thats not sales.

Even if they all translate into confirmed orders then its still only 4 months of production at the sales levels they need to achieve

I like the car but there are too many unknowns for me to even have considered putting £1k down, which I did consider

No specs, no firm prices, not even a confirmed delivery year


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## ardandy (Aug 18, 2006)

As its fully refundable what's the gamble? 

Change your mind, get it back. Dont forget that its 150k after the first day and the first reveal. When specs and final version is announced there will be a huge surge. This is completely unprecedented in the car industry. Its iPhone like hysteria.


----------



## ardandy (Aug 18, 2006)




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## mitsi boy (Jan 26, 2013)

I'm with ardandy. If we all continue to ignore the situation we (or rather our kids) won't be going anywhere whilst living on a polluted unliveable earth. Don't get me wrong I'm no eco warrior and have had some of the thirstiest most awsome super salons that have been built. But it's easy to sit back and say that you could have an S class or what ever but how does that help the end game ? It's simply continuing on an unsustainable path. If we don't start putting our money (and not just expecting the government's to) then where will we end up. 
I currently have an A45 amg as I saw it as a step away from the big V8 and V10's that I have had previously. I will most definitely be looking at this or the model S as a replacement in a year or two. 1k is no risk on a credit card, and will help fund development of a true EV.


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## fatdazza (Dec 29, 2010)

ardandy said:


> Tesla superchargers are ultra reliable and all over the place! When you're in traffic you don't use electric.
> 
> As for sales, they've hit 150000 in 24 hours. Name another car manufacturer that's had that success for preorders!


Lol - he has sold zero Model 3 cars :lol:

I would even go so far as to say he has no pre-orders. A pre order would generally imply some obligation to purchase.

"_While this Reservation secures the approximate delivery priority within your region, it does not constitute the
purchase or order of a vehicle_" - taken directly from the "Tesla Reservation Terms and Conditions"

All he has done so far is to get an interest free loan from 150,000 for a year or two.

"_You understand that we will not hold your Reservation Payment separately or in an escrow or trust fund or pay
any interest on your Reservation Payment_." - Also from the reservation agreement


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## fatdazza (Dec 29, 2010)

ardandy said:


> tesla superchargers are ultra reliable and all over the place! When you're in traffic you don't use electric.
> 
> As for sales, they've hit 150000 in 24 hours. Name another car manufacturer that's had that success for preorders!











Hardly "all over the place".


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## 182_Blue (Oct 25, 2005)

fatdazza said:


> View attachment 46139
> 
> 
> Hardly "all over the place".


Ouch, then you get there and someone is plugged in already ?!, I must admit I have never seen a tesla charging area !?, how long is it to charge up ?


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## fatdazza (Dec 29, 2010)

182_Blue said:


> Ouch, then you get there and someone is plugged in already ?!, I must admit I have never seen a tesla charging area !?, how long is it to charge up ?


For the model S they state 30 mins at a supercharger point will give you a range of 170 miles.


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## 182_Blue (Oct 25, 2005)

Cookies said:


> If the deposit was paid by credit card, you'd have the protection offered by Section 75 of the Consumer Credit Act.
> 
> Cooks


Only for aprox 1.5 year from payment date though isn't it, the wait is possibly 2 times after the cut off period ?


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## ardandy (Aug 18, 2006)

fatdazza said:


> Hardly "all over the place".


They have a plus 200miles range! How big do you think the country is? Consider its what, 330miles from London to Edinburgh you have to only use 1 of those chargers. They are also doubling the amount next year and introducing destination charging.

No offence but you don't seem to understand EVs? You do realise you charge at home? In fact 90% of charging is done at home.

Oh and the superchargers are free. London to Edinburgh would cost you nothing!


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## fatdazza (Dec 29, 2010)

182_Blue said:


> Only for aprox 1.5 year from payment date though isn't it, the wait is possibly 2 times after the cut off period ?


I am no legal expert but I am not so sure any "deposit" paid by credit card is protected under section 75 of the Consumer Credit Act. That is to cover breach of contract or misrepresentation.

Not sure that if Tesla defaults, that any breach has occurred.


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## ardandy (Aug 18, 2006)

This is a suoercharger at services.


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## fatdazza (Dec 29, 2010)

ardandy said:


> They have a plus 200miles range! How big do you think the country is? Consider its what, 330miles from London to Edinburgh you have to only use 1 of those chargers. They are also doubling the amount next year and introducing destination charging.
> 
> No offence but you don't seem to understand EVs? You do realise you charge at home? In fact 90% of charging is done at home.
> 
> Oh and the superchargers are free. London to Edinburgh would cost you nothing!


I was merely showing and stating facts. You stated these superchargers were "all over the place". I demonstrated (by factually reproducing Tesla information) that the superchargers are pretty few and far between.

Perhaps we should wait and see if the number does indeed "double next year".


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## ardandy (Aug 18, 2006)

They're 30-50 miles apart and the cars have +200mile range?

Just do the maths!


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## fatdazza (Dec 29, 2010)

ardandy said:


> They're 30-50 miles apart and the cars have +200mile range?
> 
> Just do the maths!


Look at the map - there may be some that are "30-50 miles apart" on some of the motorway network but many parts of the country are pretty devoid of any charging points. :wall:


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## 182_Blue (Oct 25, 2005)

fatdazza said:


> Look at the map - there may be some that are "30-50 miles apart" on some of the motorway network but many parts of the country are pretty devoid of any charging points. :wall:


There are certainty parts of the country that you couldn't get to and back from using those particular charging points, i guess more will be installed in the future?, at some point they won't be free either i guess?

On the electric car front I wonder how the government will start to charge you for the use of the car on the road etc when your using your home electric supply, will you have a home electric rate and a home car charging rate, i know it's a long way into the future but as oil powered cars reduce so will revenue earned from them, the revenue will have to be made up somewhere, i suspect the petrol/ diesel drivers will make up that short fall in the early years and subsidise the EV users.


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## ardandy (Aug 18, 2006)

They are the locations of the SUPERCHARGERS only.

You can use ecotricity ones/supermarket ones or even a normal plug socket if you like. Its not just that map.


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## nick_mcuk (Jan 4, 2008)

ardandy said:


> They are the locations of the SUPERCHARGERS only.
> 
> You can use ecotricity ones/supermarket ones or even a normal plug socket if you like. Its not just that map.


Yeah and a normal plug socket will give you something stupid like 7 miles for every hour on charge.


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## fatdazza (Dec 29, 2010)

nick_mcuk said:


> Yeah and a normal plug socket will give you something stupid like 7 miles for every hour on charge.


Not an issue to "Eco Warriors", it's not as if they have to get anywhere on time (like to work :lol


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## 182_Blue (Oct 25, 2005)

Let's be honest for most people they are not yet viable, unless the range increases and the charging time become more like filling up with petrol etc they just won't take off fully either, the joint electric and small normal engine cars make the most sense for normal car users.

I don't think plug in electric cars are the real future, maybe it's about hydrogen fuel cell cars ?, personally though at the moment and in the near future plug in EV is just not viable or workable for my lifestyle.

All IMO of course, I am only commenting because i am actually interested in one but for me they just aren't there yet.


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## ardandy (Aug 18, 2006)

I agree I wouldn't have a leaf if it was our only car. But lets face it with the Tesla M3 you could do 400miles with 1 40min stop. Most people would have at least 1 stop on a 400 mile journey! 

Also the fact that the vast majority of people dont do more than 200miles in a day. 

As a comparison, I've done 12000miles in the leaf in 9 months and its cost me £213 in electric for all that!


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## ardandy (Aug 18, 2006)

nick_mcuk said:


> Yeah and a normal plug socket will give you something stupid like 7 miles for every hour on charge.


9miles actually! 

Obviously that would be a ln overnight thing and rarely used.


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## Kimo (Jun 7, 2013)

So it needs to be in charge a whole day (24 hours) to get 200 miles?

'Sorry Pete, can't come see you today, ****ty cars Gotta stay on charge'


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## ardandy (Aug 18, 2006)

No, rapid supercharger would take around 40min from flat to full and at home you have a home charger installed which would add about 40mile each hour.

It's like a smartphone. Plug in when you get hone or at night and carry on the next day.


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## robertdon777 (Nov 3, 2005)

Considering this is one of the First EV cars to be aimed at mass market....it ain't a bad first effort.

Like it or not, this is the future. Hydrogen power isn't.

Come back in 10 years and the development will have gone crazy on vehicles like this.

The benefits to businesses through fuel savings will be huge, plus they will buy them to plug a businesses green credentials.

Once the range hits 300 nearly every business will sit up and look hard at what cars they buy. This will also make way for a huge increase at fast charging stations.

Remember the base model will be released with a 200+ range, maybe higher end models will run to 300. Then I suspect the next models base range would be an easy 300.

People will always say, oh it won't suit me....well it won't if your not the average motorist BUT this is being aimed at Mr and Mrs average...which is why it has a 215 mile range....1 charge per week.


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## m4rkymark (Aug 17, 2014)

Section 75 won't cover your deposit if it goes belly up - the goods need to be more than £100 and less than 30k - these won't come in at less than 30k given the price of them on the web site... I couldn't give someone 1k then wait 3 yrs on the product being delivered - if there was some kind of incentive available as an early investor then that's different but just to give them money then wait sorry I think your naive at best.

I also think the infrastructure we have for supply of electricity will suffer even more, we are already on the limit of what the grid can supply never mind adding 32 million cars onto it - yes it will take years and years to move everyone over. I also don't believe once everyone has moved over low cost charging will continue the way it is currently as the govt. will loose too much money in tax. Think of the revenues they pull in from petrol - that revenue needs replicated somehow in the ev business strategy.


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## 182_Blue (Oct 25, 2005)

On another note, how many garages do they have in the UK, and where would you get one serviced?


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## ardandy (Aug 18, 2006)

Actually it will as you're not placing a deposit, you're placing a £1000 reservation. Effectively its just to get your name on the list, not a deposit for the car itself as that doesn't actually exist yet. You cant put a deposit on something you don't know the price for. 

So the 'product' is for £1000, not the car price. 

When its due the £1000 will be transferred over to be used as a deposit.


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## robertdon777 (Nov 3, 2005)

Government will just change what and how much is taxed, they will just rob from another taxed item even more to cover shortfalls.

Car companies won't worry about how governments collect tax, they will worry about sales and getting one over the competition.

Watch VW very close over the next 5-10 years. Full EV will be available in every model they produce.


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## ardandy (Aug 18, 2006)

182_Blue said:


> On another note, how many garages do they have in the UK, and where would you get one serviced?


They're in major cities at the mo. Near me that's Leeds, Manchester and Knutsford (Cheshire).
At the reveal they announced stores will be doubling in number.

With the model S you don't have to service it. The only thing they offer is a health check of sorts. So you could do 500000 miles over 8 years without any actual servicing done by tesla and it wont effect the warranty. Its optional basically.

When I asked why the guy said its because there is only 14 moving parts to a Model S and 5 of them are wheels!


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## ardandy (Aug 18, 2006)

Preorders have now hit 235000.


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## robertdon777 (Nov 3, 2005)

182_Blue said:


> On another note, how many garages do they have in the UK, and where would you get one serviced?


I think they have a few, there is one in Brum. But the actual serviceable parts are very minimal. I think they share many mechanical parts with Merc so would imagine any spares....say a wheel bearing would be a part from Merc..or dare I say Eurocarparts etc.

Do they even have an air filter? Maybe a cabin filter but no oil filters, no exhausts, no timing chains, no belts etc etc.


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## robertdon777 (Nov 3, 2005)

ardandy said:


> Preorders have now hit 235000.


He does come across as the Steve Jobs of the car industry....its very refreshing.

Nice to see change, I known some people don't like change but personally I love to see someone having a go and changing things.

Win or lose I applaud him for giving it a go...he could of just sat on a dessert island counting his Billion's.


----------



## 182_Blue (Oct 25, 2005)

ardandy said:


> Preorders have now hit 235000.


Surely they are going to get to a point where they can't actually produce how many they need!, what are their production facilities like?


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## 182_Blue (Oct 25, 2005)

ardandy said:


> They're in major cities at the mo. Near me that's Leeds, Manchester and Knutsford (Cheshire).
> At the reveal they announced stores will be doubling in number.
> 
> With the model S you don't have to service it. The only thing they offer is a health check of sorts. So you could do 500000 miles over 8 years without any actual servicing done by tesla and it wont effect the warranty. Its optional basically.
> ...


Fair enough.


----------



## fatdazza (Dec 29, 2010)

ardandy said:


> When I asked why the guy said its because there is only 14 moving parts to a Model S and 5 of them are wheels!


Sorry but that just seems to be nonsense and a sales spiel.

You seem to believe so much of the "hype" put out about these cars that you must be a sales person's dream. Please don't let a double glazing salesman into your house :lol:


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## fatdazza (Dec 29, 2010)

ardandy said:


> Preorders have now hit 235000.


No, fact is that 235,000 people have paid some money to be on a "priority list".

No one has pre ordered anything. Stick to the facts.


----------



## 182_Blue (Oct 25, 2005)

fatdazza said:


> Sorry but that just seems to be nonsense and a sales spiel.
> 
> You seem to believe so much of the "hype" put out about these cars that you must be a sales person's dream. Please don't let a double glazing salesman into your house :lol:


Servicing isn't needed though, well unless you worry about the future value, if you service it though they charge quite a lot considering they only have a few small bits to check (this is for a model S), the first service is £375 and for that they change the wipers blades and your battery in your key fob and your cabin filter.



> If I choose not to service my Model S, will this void my warranty or Resale Value Guarantee?
> 
> It is highly recommended that you service your Model S once a year or every 12,500 mi. If you do not follow this recommendation, your New Vehicle Limited Warranty will not be affected. If you are financing your Model S through Tesla Financing, you will only be eligible for the full Resale Value Guarantee if your Model S is brought in for service per the above recommended timeline.


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## fatdazza (Dec 29, 2010)

182_Blue said:


> Servicing isn't needed though, well unless you worry about the future value, if you service it though they charge quite alot considering they only have a few small bits to check.


Do they not have hydraulic brakes? If so surely that would be a service item to change the brake fluid?

Edit - just checked and it does appear to be a requirement every two years.


----------



## ardandy (Aug 18, 2006)

fatdazza said:


> Sorry but that just seems to be nonsense and a sales spiel.
> 
> You seem to believe so much of the "hype" put out about these cars that you must be a sales person's dream. Please don't let a double glazing salesman into your house :lol:


This isn't sales spiel it was about the Model S which has been out for 3-4 years!

It's a fact!


----------



## Rayaan (Jun 1, 2014)

robertdon777 said:


> Considering this is one of the First EV cars to be aimed at mass market....it ain't a bad first effort.
> 
> Like it or not, this is the future. Hydrogen power isn't.
> 
> ...


How do you know hydrogen isn't the future?

Something like a Mirai has more range than this, yes its expensive but that's brand spanking new technology at the moment.

It fills in 2 minutes - the way I see it, if every petrol station in the UK just add a single hydrogen refueling section - that's electric cars gone for good.

Toyota isn't daft - I doubt they'd be pursuing hydrogen fuel tech for the sake of it.


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## Rayaan (Jun 1, 2014)

182_Blue said:


> Servicing isn't needed though, well unless you worry about the future value, if you service it though they charge quite a lot considering they only have a few small bits to check (this is for a model S), the first service is £375 and for that they change the wipers blades and your battery in your key fob and your cabin filter.


Bloody hell thats some expensive servicing lol - mine is like £900 for 3 years lol


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## 182_Blue (Oct 25, 2005)

Rayaan said:


> How do you know hydrogen isn't the future?
> 
> Something like a Mirai has more range than this, yes its expensive but that's brand spanking new technology at the moment.
> 
> ...


BMW also are investing heavily in hydrogen (with toyota).


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## fatdazza (Dec 29, 2010)

ardandy said:


> They're in major cities at the mo. Near me that's Leeds, Manchester and Knutsford (Cheshire).
> At the reveal they announced stores will be doubling in number.
> 
> With the model S you don't have to service it. The only thing they offer is a health check of sorts. So you could do 500000 miles over 8 years without any actual servicing done by tesla and it wont effect the warranty. Its optional basically.
> ...





ardandy said:


> This isn't sales spiel it was about the Model S which has been out for 3-4 years!
> 
> It's a fact!


So 14 moving parts eh?

5 wheels
Do the windows go up and down? If so do they do it by magic?
I assume they have brakes? Caliper pistons aren't superglued in you know (they do actually go in and out), calipers also have slider rails.

How many compressors are in the model S? Do they magically puff without any moving parts?

Cooling pumps for the battery packs do not work by osmosis :wall:

A salesman tells you something and you quote it as fact, my god you are so gullible :lol::lol::lol:


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## 182_Blue (Oct 25, 2005)

Rayaan said:


> Bloody hell thats some expensive servicing lol - mine is like £900 for 3 years lol


£30 in parts for the first service, the rest is for ....


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## 182_Blue (Oct 25, 2005)

Please be a bit more respectful, your not on Pistoneheads :thumb:



fatdazza said:


> So 14 moving parts eh?
> 
> 5 wheels
> Do the windows go up and down? If so do they do it by magic?
> ...


----------



## ardandy (Aug 18, 2006)

fatdazza said:


> So 14 moving parts eh?
> 
> 5 wheels
> Do the windows go up and down? If so do they do it by magic?
> ...


Don't think you've got it.

Every screw and nut is technically a moving part, hell even the door handles! What he meant is, for example, the motor in the model S has 1 moving part. A normal petrol engine has.........

A pump may have several components to work but is classed is 1 moving part! Replaceable as such!

Whichever way you look at it, there are immensely less in any EV than a typical combustion car. Far less to go wrong.


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## ardandy (Aug 18, 2006)

From a website.

EV's are much simpler mechanically than ICE vehicles with far fewer parts and requiring less maintenance. The perceived expense of EV's is almost entirely in the cost of batteries and as battery prices come down with expanding production, then overall EV costs will come down as well.

The Tesla Model S has remarkably few mechanical parts, while combustion vehicles have thousands of discrete parts that make up the engine, fuel system, transmission, drive train and exhaust. Tesla displays a stripped down Model S in their stores with just the mechanical parts installed, for anyone accustomed to complex mechanical aspects of cars it is a surprising contrast. Despite the sophistication of the engineering, the final package is remarkably simple and implies that costs can be reduced as manufacturing expands and matures.

The electric motor is not much bigger than a watermelon and is matched up with the DC-AC inverter and single-speed gearbox in a very compact space between the rear wheels. This setup provides direct power to the rear wheels and also handles the regenerative braking. The battery is wide and flat and covers the entire bottom of the frame between the four wheels. The battery and inverter are liquid cooled with a reservoir and pump. Under the front side of the car are the rest of the mechanical components: vacuum pump for air suspension, ABS compressor, steering motor, AC compressor and double wishbone suspension. Along with conventional brakes and wheels, those are effectively all the parts that make the car go. There are large trunks for storage in both the front and back of the car and the interior is very roomy with comfortable seating for 5.


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## ardandy (Aug 18, 2006)

182_Blue said:


> BMW also are investing heavily in hydrogen (with toyota).


The main issue I believe with hydrogen is that it takes a lot more energy to produce/package than you get out. So it's uneconomical.

Either way, hydrogen or battery powered, they're all electric cars, it's only the power source that's different.


----------



## Rayaan (Jun 1, 2014)

ardandy said:


> Don't think you've got it.
> 
> Every screw and nut is technically a moving part, hell even the door handles! What he meant is, for example, the motor in the model S has 1 moving part. A normal petrol engine has.........
> 
> ...


Far less to go wrong - I agree.

That doesn't necessarily equate to "less stuff will go wrong".

That's like saying a 1982 Alfa Romeo Spider will have less things going wrong at 200k miles than a Toyota Prius as it technically has less things to go wrong.

I really fancy doing a Tesla to Two-Hundred K miles Test - against a Toyota Prius to see which has more issues first!


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## EliteCarCare (Aug 25, 2006)

fatdazza said:


> Do they not have hydraulic brakes? If so surely that would be a service item to change the brake fluid?
> 
> Edit - just checked and it does appear to be a requirement every two years.


The Model S brakes and air suspension are actually from an S-Class Mercedes, as is the column shift for the gearbox.


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## 182_Blue (Oct 25, 2005)

How do they compare weight wise ?



ardandy said:


> From a website.
> 
> EV's are much simpler mechanically than ICE vehicles with far fewer parts and requiring less maintenance. The perceived expense of EV's is almost entirely in the cost of batteries and as battery prices come down with expanding production, then overall EV costs will come down as well.
> 
> ...


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## fatdazza (Dec 29, 2010)

ardandy said:


> Don't think you've got it.
> 
> Every screw and nut is technically a moving part, hell even the door handles! What he meant is, for example, the motor in the model S has 1 moving part. A normal petrol engine has.........
> 
> ...


Oh I have got it completely. You say one thing and then wriggle out of it.

Fact: the tesla has more than the "14 moving parts" that you quoted. You cannot accept that what several of your statements have been proven to be incorrect.

People can clearly see that you have been caught up in the hype surrounding this and will take what you post with a pinch of salt.


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## ardandy (Aug 18, 2006)

Not the wrong thing, just out of context. 

I dont understand your problem with these cars? Have they or I slighted you in some way?


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## robertdon777 (Nov 3, 2005)

I think the debate about how many moving parts should be put to bed.

Its obvious an EV will be a very simple vehicle from a service point of view. Simpler than any ICE could ever be.....this surely is a great thing for the consumer.

Much like RC cars.....run a nitro one, run an electric one. Then tell us which you prefer and why.

Elec: easier to use, cleaner, less bits to maintain, just as quick, more low down punch.

Nitro: The Noise, the smell....but that's about it.


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## ardandy (Aug 18, 2006)

My problem is that the leaf goes back June 2017 and this isn't due from lat 2018 to 2019. 

So I need a plan of what car to get for 18 months to 2 1/2 years!


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## packard (Jun 8, 2009)

ardandy said:


> My problem is that the leaf goes back June 2017 and this isn't due from lat 2018 to 2019.
> 
> So I need a plan of what car to get for 18 months to 2 1/2 years!


You could get a great deal on hire car for that period of time  some cracking deals are always about.

On the subject of tesla, who's gonna be the main dealerships? (Any update on that ?)


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## ardandy (Aug 18, 2006)

Tesla have their own dealers.


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## fatdazza (Dec 29, 2010)

ardandy said:


> Not the wrong thing, just out of context.
> 
> I dont understand your problem with these cars? Have they or I slighted you in some way?


I have no problem with these cars. They will probably be an ok car, but until they hit the streets no one really knows.

You have posted several statements which are clearly incorrect and have taken an almost evangelical position that these cars will be the answer to everyone's problems.

You talk at length about sales and pre-orders and the number of people who have signed up, when in fact no -one has pre-ordered and none have been sold, people have simply paid a £1000 / $1000 for to "secure the approximate delivery priority for their region"

You assert that your "reservation payment" is safe, when it is not entirely clear that it is.

You selectively quote "moving parts" and then assert that this will result in a more reliable car.

Super charging stations are not "all over the place"

You assume it will come with an 8 year / unlimited mileage warranty, when nothing has been stated for the model 3.

Good luck with your wait. It appears that RHD markets might be one of the last to get their cars.


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## robertdon777 (Nov 3, 2005)

ardandy said:


> My problem is that the leaf goes back June 2017 and this isn't due from lat 2018 to 2019.
> 
> So I need a plan of what car to get for 18 months to 2 1/2 years!


I just bought a 15 year old 1 owner A Class. 60K miles....£800. Makes a great stop gap car between my lease and something I really want.

To be fair to the little A Class, for 15 years old the build quality is superb, really well put together, nice materials,bags of room and has some brilliant design ideas....reclining rear seats, under seat stowage like an aircraft, rear sliding seats and removable rear and passenger seat for huge van like load carrying.

All in a package shorter than a Ford KA.


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## ardandy (Aug 18, 2006)

I'll probably try one of these cheap lease deals that pop-up!


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## packard (Jun 8, 2009)

ardandy said:


> Tesla have their own dealers.


Hope they get some more, I think I would need a charge just to get home

https://www.teslamotors.com/en_GB/findus/list/stores/United Kingdom


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## Cookies (Dec 10, 2008)

I love the whole tesla ethos. The concept of developing a very expensive electric car, selling loads of them and then developing the technology to be able to produce a more affordable one for the masses is genius. Most business models are the complete opposite. 

If the range and charging infrastructure were sorted, I'd put a deposit on one tomorrow. 

Well, Monday lol.

Cooks


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## ardandy (Aug 18, 2006)

packard said:


> Hope they get some more, I think I would need a charge just to get home
> 
> https://www.teslamotors.com/en_GB/findus/list/stores/United Kingdom


They said they're doubling them by end of next year. Guess we'll see!


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## should_do_more (Apr 30, 2008)

I really like these. I think I saw my first Tesla in Miami in 2014, nice car.

Thing that annoys me, as with all things here, is we will pay £35k not $35k. I'd buy one tomorrow if I could be sure I could reliably street charge it (in London you've got no chance) and be sure it has a range of 250+....my experience is these battery claims, as with all devices, a bit of an exaggeration.


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## ardandy (Aug 18, 2006)

Preorders have just hit 325,000!

Biggest preorder product launch ever of anything apparently.


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## nick_mcuk (Jan 4, 2008)

ardandy said:


> Preorders have just hit 325,000!
> 
> Biggest preorder product launch ever of anything apparently.


Not preorders - deposits for holding a space in line for orders.

How many times does that need to be said honestly?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ardandy (Aug 18, 2006)

I'm really not that bothered about semantics. 

325,000 people have put £1000/$1000 down for the car. Is that better.


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## nick_mcuk (Jan 4, 2008)

ardandy said:


> I'm really not that bothered about semantics.
> 
> 325,000 people have put £1000/$1000 down for the car. Is that better.


...and I bet no more than 50% of those actually transfer into actual sales.

They are completely pointless stats, can't fault the marketing and launch announcement though.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Caledoniandream (Oct 9, 2009)

I am looking forward to this, and hope it will be one of the better offerings in electric cars.
I hope it will not turn out as another DeLorean story.

Wouldn't put money down now, as I never buy a new model in its first year, i like to leave the little problems to other people.
Most times after a year all the issues are ironed out.
As we are one of the first RHD markets to get supplied, there will be lots of small issues.

Some will never leave (example BMW steering wheel slightly out on a RHD compared to a LHD cousing me chronic back pain) others come with moving components to the other side
( remember the Citroens with the brake linkage because the brake cylinder was on the opesite side, if you as a passenger knew where to press you could brake and **** the driver off:lol 

But yeah I aplaud Tesla to take the lead in this.


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## andy665 (Nov 1, 2005)

There is growing concern about the long term viability of Tesla

They are supported massively by US grants and tax subsidies but still losing money at a frightening rate

The rest of the automotive sector is catching up and catching up fast - Mercedes bought in to Tesla to access battery technology but is now doing its own development etc

Quality control issues are starting to be raised about the Model S and Model X

325,000 expressions of interest - I'm sure the Volkswagen Type 1 (Beetle) in 1938 had more people actually paid up using the Nazi voucher system than this and no one ever got their cars or their money back - not a straight comparison but does reinforce the point that sometime things can go badly wrong


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## bidderman1969 (Oct 20, 2006)

i have to admit, i am a bit of a Tesla fan, and i can see it being fairly good as a taxi for me, along as there is a "supercharger" somewhere near to me. one of my regular customers said about an airport in Holland where all the taxis at the airport are Tesla's, and he had a ride in one and was impressed. but i can still see the future being hydrogen, as others have said, along with what i have said to others (probably not on here) about the long term effects of plugging all these electric cars in to the national grid, i just can't see it being able to handle it all, which of course maybe addressed by then, we just don't know 100%

i'd be interested to know why hydrogen, according to a few, isn't viable?


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## DarrylB (Feb 17, 2006)

bidderman1969 said:


> i'd be interested to know why hydrogen, according to a few, isn't viable?


As I understand it (and I'm no expert AT ALL), as far as I know with current technology and science, the cost to produce/harvest the hydrogen costs more energy than you get from the hydrogen itself.

That's about it in a nutshell at the moment I think.


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## bidderman1969 (Oct 20, 2006)

DarrylB said:


> As I understand it (and I'm no expert AT ALL), as far as I know with current technology and science, the cost to produce/harvest the hydrogen costs more energy than you get from the hydrogen itself.
> 
> That's about it in a nutshell at the moment I think.


seems reasonable, expect they said the same about petrol once, :lol::lol:


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## Bero (Mar 9, 2008)

bidderman1969 said:


> i have to admit, i am a bit of a Tesla fan, and i can see it being fairly good as a taxi for me, along as there is a "supercharger" somewhere near to me. one of my regular customers said about an airport in Holland where all the taxis at the airport are Tesla's, and he had a ride in one and was impressed. but i can still see the future being hydrogen, as others have said, along with what i have said to others (probably not on here) about the long term effects of plugging all these electric cars in to the national grid, i just can't see it being able to handle it all, which of course maybe addressed by then, we just don't know 100%
> 
> i'd be interested to know why hydrogen, according to a few, isn't viable?


The airport is Schipol, Norway has a few Model S taxi's too.

I don't think hydrogen will take off, they're have some stations and cars in California now, but the cost for hydrogen is greater than petrol, and they're having problems with the infrastructure. A few temporary stations have appeared but you can only get 5,000psi or 1/2 a tank. Just like LPG, I dont think it's the game changer that EV will be/is. Many petrol stations that are getting remodelled are taking LPG out, they can use the space for a couple parking spaces for the deli/cafe/shop that many are converting to and make a lot more money from. Not to mention hardly any companies are pursuing hydrogen cars.

I nearly put a deposit down on a model 3, but didn't for a couple reasons, the money does not go to escrow or anything like that, if just goes into Teslas bank for them to spend. I'm pretty sure they wont fail........but they did lose over $800,000,000 last year! And secondly the my line of work (Oil and Gas) is not doing too great at the moment!


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## bidderman1969 (Oct 20, 2006)

Norway/Netherlands, close enough, lol


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

Bero said:


> The airport is Schipol, Norway has a few Model S taxi's too.
> 
> I don't think hydrogen will take off, they're have some stations and cars in California now, but the cost for hydrogen is greater than petrol, and they're having problems with the infrastructure. A few temporary stations have appeared but you can only get 5,000psi or 1/2 a tank. Just like LPG, I dont think it's the game changer that EV will be/is. Many petrol stations that are getting remodelled are taking LPG out, they can use the space for a couple parking spaces for the deli/cafe/shop that many are converting to and make a lot more money from. Not to mention hardly any companies are pursuing hydrogen cars.
> 
> I nearly put a deposit down on a model 3, but didn't for a couple reasons, the money does not go to escrow or anything like that, if just goes into Teslas bank for them to spend. I'm pretty sure they wont fail........but they did lose over $800,000,000 last year! And secondly the my line of work (Oil and Gas) is not doing too great at the moment!


You can hire a hydrogen car from Co-wheels in Aberdeen! We've got buses too with more likely to come too.


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## ardandy (Aug 18, 2006)

Here's one.


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## nick_mcuk (Jan 4, 2008)

ardandy said:


> Here's one.


Now that's a good video and deffo the way forwards in my eyes. I think this is going to end up being another VHS vs Betamax or CD vs Digital Compact cassette war

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ardandy (Aug 18, 2006)

Is it though?

They're both Electric driven cars, only the source is different.

One has a big battery, the other has a fuel cell.


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## nick_mcuk (Jan 4, 2008)

ardandy said:


> Is it though?
> 
> They're both Electric driven cars, only the source is different.
> 
> One has a big battery, the other has a fuel cell.


Yes it is more freedom and not tied down to charging stations.

The future is hybrid electric vehicles not pure electric only.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ardandy (Aug 18, 2006)

When you can do 400miles to a charge (where you can charge at home as well) your hardly tied to them.


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## Bero (Mar 9, 2008)

bidderman1969 said:


> Norway/Netherlands, close enough, lol


The airport you're speaking about is i the Netherlands. I just mentioned that Norway also has a few Tesla Taxis.



Kerr said:


> You can hire a hydrogen car from Co-wheels in Aberdeen! We've got buses too with more likely to come too.


I know it was spoken about and there were getting trailed before being released for public use. Did they go into operation? Yes, I seen a few of the buses broken down in the 1st couple months of operation.



nick_mcuk said:


> Yes it is more freedom and not tied down to charging stations.
> 
> The future is hybrid electric vehicles not pure electric only.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Hybrid electric is just a stop gap until battery energy density improves and widespread accessibility of >50kw charging stations IMHO.

If you could do 300+miles from full and recharge 150miles of range in 20-30minutes very few people would need a hybrid.


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## nick_mcuk (Jan 4, 2008)

ardandy said:


> When you can do 400miles to a charge (where you can charge at home as well) your hardly tied to them.


What EV can do 400 miles to a charge???

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ardandy (Aug 18, 2006)

I said when.

Considering you can get nearly 300 now it wont be that far off.


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## fatdazza (Dec 29, 2010)

ardandy said:


> I said when.
> 
> Considering you can get nearly 300 now it wont be that far off.


Lol, everything is when........

When Tesla release the model 3

When Tesla install all these charging stations

When you go for 400 miles on a charge

One could get tired of waiting you know.


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## nick_mcuk (Jan 4, 2008)

So far none of the EV have gotten close to the "claimed" range....

FatDazza makes a valid point there are WAAAY to many "Whens" and "If's"


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## Bero (Mar 9, 2008)

nick_mcuk said:


> So far none of the EV have gotten close to the "claimed" range....
> 
> FatDazza makes a valid point there are WAAAY to many "Whens" and "If's"


What cars get close to their claimed MPG? Possibly if you drive like Miss Dasy you may achieve it....it's exactly the same with EV, except refuelling takes a little more planning.

For EV look at the US EPA range, it's pretty close in real life driving and much better than manufacturer claims or the European test.

Make no mistake, EV is coming in a big way. If does not matter how many 'whens', we all have suitable transport in the mean while.

And no one is going to beat you into using EV if it does not suit your needs, it's just an option. And options are a good thing. :thumb:


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## ardandy (Aug 18, 2006)

You can realistically get 250miles from a Model S now.


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## Rayaan (Jun 1, 2014)

ardandy said:


> You can realistically get 250miles from a Model S now.


But now its a lot more expensive than before?

Im sure Elon Musk said the high cost is due to the cost of batteries and he will try to reduce the price of the Model S. What he has done is instead made it more expensive.

Hits 80k+ for a 70D with some packs.


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## ardandy (Aug 18, 2006)

Its more expensive because the £5000 government grant no longer applies to them.


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## fatdazza (Dec 29, 2010)

Bero said:


> What cars get close to their claimed MPG? Possibly if you drive like Miss Dasy you may achieve it....it's exactly the same with EV, except refuelling takes a little more planning.
> 
> For EV look at the US EPA range, it's pretty close in real life driving and much better than manufacturer claims or the European test.
> 
> ...


I don't doubt for one minute that EV is coming in a big way. What I disagree with is that some people posting on this thread would have you believe that EV is a realistic option for the majority of drivers now, when in fact the infrastructure is simply not yet in place. They quote ranges that are totally unrealistic and then try to argue that even if the range is not as quoted, there are sufficient charging stations to make life easy. That is simply not true.

And even then when challenged, they believe that by the time the model 3 hits the streets, the infrastructure problems will all have magically been solved.


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## nick_mcuk (Jan 4, 2008)

fatdazza said:


> I don't doubt for one minute that EV is coming in a big way. What I disagree with is that some people posting on this thread would have you believe that EV is a realistic option for the majority of drivers now, when in fact the infrastructure is simply not yet in place. They quote ranges that are totally unrealistic and then try to argue that even if the range is not as quoted, there are sufficient charging stations to make life easy. That is simply not true.
> 
> And even then when challenged, they believe that by the time the model 3 hits the streets, the infrastructure problems will all have magically been solved.


I had to go to ToolStation in West Drayton on Monday....went past the Tesla dealers and all 4-5 of the super chargers were in use


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## Bero (Mar 9, 2008)

fatdazza said:


> I don't doubt for one minute that EV is coming in a big way. What I disagree with is that some people posting on this thread would have you believe that EV is a realistic option for the majority of drivers now, when in fact the infrastructure is simply not yet in place. They quote ranges that are totally unrealistic and then try to argue that even if the range is not as quoted, there are sufficient charging stations to make life easy. That is simply not true.
> 
> And even then when challenged, they believe that by the time the model 3 hits the streets, the infrastructure problems will all have magically been solved.


EV is no more one size fits all than 'diesel engines' were etc.

I imagine around the time the Tesla 3 comes out the charging network will be the most congested it has ever been.....and possibly ever will be after the network catches up with demand. Currently I would say supply far exceeds demand.

For me....in my circumstances a leaf would be ideal as a city car, and keep my current daily for longer journeys / weekends / road trips / manhood extension. Once I'm back doing more miles in the UK, and my garage / charging facility is complete I'll be getting one.

Would a small diseasel car be cheaper? Possibly, but I like gadgets...and the leaf is quite a cool one.....apart from the looks.

Does current EV (excluding Model S) work as an only car for most people? Probably not.


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## ardandy (Aug 18, 2006)

I wouldn't own a Leaf if it was my only car.

That said though, just done 12,000miles in 9 months. Total cost around £230ish in electric.


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