# Best possible finish?



## A20 LEE (Feb 20, 2007)

Think i getting pretty close to getting the best results i can out of 85RD FF with a megs buffing pads, so whats the next step? Money no object, whats the best pads and polish to get the absolute maximum the paint can deliver? Or is there some more technique to learn, would i be better getting Clark or Miracle to spend a day with me? Discuss..


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## Epoch (Jul 30, 2006)

I guessing you have already but the processes used by Steve and Ant on the BM was all about reaching the best possible finish (refining)

So two sets of 3.02, then one of 106FF and then one of 85RD. When applying HD-C no difference real could be seen, quite amazing as HD usually leaves a noticable difference in my experience.

See the thread here

http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=26111

I don't know if there are any softer pads or finner polishes then the Megs/Menz combo mentioned though!


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## ianFRST (Sep 19, 2006)

best results as in swirl free?

then if you have, id say the next step is a paint cleaner, and the best wax possible 

or if youve not got 100% from the paint, ive found that the blue 3m polish with a blue finishing pads, finishes off very nicely, but then thats after ive used 3.02


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## A20 LEE (Feb 20, 2007)

Epoch said:


> I guessing you have already but the processes used by Steve and Ant on the BM was all about reaching the best possible finish (refining)
> 
> So two sets of 3.02, then one of 106FF and then one of 85RD. When applying HD-C no difference real could be seen, quite amazing as HD usually leaves a noticable difference in my experience.
> 
> ...


Read that thread loads of times . Just planning the detail on my corrado, if theres a pads or polish combo or a technique even if it only gives me a 1% improvement over 85RD/megs buffing pad i want to know about it!


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## L200 Steve (Oct 25, 2005)

IMHO there's not a lot to touch the Menzerna PO 85RD + Megs W9006 combo by Metabo for high level of finish.

You really want to have a good look at your technique, to ensure that you take the polish down to 'nothing' perfectly each set. Alter your speed of rotation, speed of movement of the polisher and amount of pressure you use to work the ploish. These 3, along with amount of polish used all play a big part in final finish.

I've spent hours practising the finish with 85RD & W9006, then inspecting my work under the microscope.

If there is something that can better the finish (and I've tried loads of different things) then I'd be interested too.

Lee - If you want to come and play with my microscope mate, you are more than welcome :wave:


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## A20 LEE (Feb 20, 2007)

L200 Steve said:


> Lee - If you want to come and play with my microscope mate, you are more than welcome :wave:


Yeah definately!


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## maesal (Nov 24, 2005)

L200 Steve said:


> IMHO there's not a lot to touch the Menzerna PO 85RD + Megs W9006 combo by Metabo for high level of finish.
> 
> You really want to have a good look at your technique, to ensure that you take the polish down to 'nothing' perfectly each set. Alter your speed of rotation, speed of movement of the polisher and amount of pressure you use to work the ploish. These 3, along with amount of polish used all play a big part in final finish.
> 
> ...


I don't know if the results are better, but I highly rate the results obtained via 3M 50383 + 50388.


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## Ant GTI-6 (Nov 30, 2005)

I remember a 350Z we did we used 106FF/PO85RD then we applied Clearkote 'pink' moose glaze by pc with a blue sfx pad, this added a 'slight' extra wetness then topped with Swiss Vax BOS it did look nice:thumb:


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## TOGWT (Oct 26, 2005)

Slow Hand method - (apologies to EricC) using a random orbital polisher, Menzerna Final Finish (PO 106 FA) and a LC White CCS foam pad - this polish is formulated with very finely milled micro diminishing abrasives so they don’t require much to ‘breakdown’ and shouldn’t cause surface marring - Start at speed # 4, move the pad slowly across the area, then speed # 5, without any pressure, when the polish starts to go clear, spray the pad with distilled water, reduce to speed # 4, then spray pad again, increase to speed # 5 and apply pressure. Apply polish at a machine linear speed (MLS) of approximately 0.25 to 0.5-inch per second for each 2-foot x 2-foot panel (hence ‘slow hand’) Burnish paint surface using an ultra-fine (100 ppi) finishing primed foam pad (Black LC CCS) this method is time consuming but the results are well worthwhile.


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## L200 Steve (Oct 25, 2005)

maesal said:


> I don't know if the results are better, but I highly rate the results obtained via 3M 50383 + 50388.


Despite a bit of hype on here from a few about 3M polishes being the next big thing, I still prefer the PO85RD finish a the best that I have seen. I always found that the 3M ranges of polishes that I've tried over the years to have a sharp abrasive, and I much prefer the rounder abrasive found in the Menzerna Ceramiclear range of polishes.

When using the PO85RD I always try and get the abrasive to have fully broken down at the same time as the lubricant in the polish is starting to dry.

I've found that if you don't break the polish down enough by controlling the amount of pressure applied on the head of the polisher when working, that the finish does not have 'that' gloss and when inspected closely does still have very minute micro marring in place. I've found that different paint types require different amounts of pressure when polishing to get the best results. Some respond better to an increasing amoount of pressure through the set, some a constant and some to the Zenith principle.

Controlling the speed that the speed that the polisher spins at is also an important one. Too much polish, working too large an area or too slow an RPM does not allow the lubricants in the polish to dry out correctly, normally resulting in additional pressure needed when using an MF to remove polish residue.

Not enough polish or too fast an RPM causes the lubricant to dry out before the polish has fully broken down. Most people stop at this point, and don't create the finish that they could have with a little slower RPM's.

When polishing with PO85RD and a W9006 I am almost able to polish till there's nothing left, the abrasive broken down (and worked) and the lubricant just about dried. I can't describe the speed settings / how quick I move the polish over the area worked / how much pressure used etc on a forum, but it is something that you'll notice a difference in level of finish achieved with a bit of practice.

TBH though, unless you are polishing a dark solid coloured car, I doubt that there would be that much of a noticeable difference, but in Lee's case it is exactly this difference that he is looking for:thumb:


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## L200 Steve (Oct 25, 2005)

TOGWT said:


> Slow Hand method - (apologies to EricC) using a random orbital polisher, Menzerna Final Finish (PO 106 FA) and a LC White CCS foam pad - this polish is formulated with very finely milled micro diminishing abrasives so they don't require much to 'breakdown' and shouldn't cause surface marring - Start at speed # 4, move the pad slowly across the area, then speed # 5, without any pressure, when the polish starts to go clear, spray the pad with distilled water, reduce to speed # 4, then spray pad again, increase to speed # 5 and apply pressure. Apply polish at a machine linear speed (MLS) of approximately 0.25 to 0.5-inch per second for each 2-foot x 2-foot panel (hence 'slow hand') Burnish paint surface using an ultra-fine (100 ppi) finishing primed foam pad (Black LC CCS) this method is time consuming but the results are well worthwhile.


The CCS pads are flawed IMO for use as final finishing pads for rotary use. As are all waffle pads.

Unless a pad is perfectly flat, you are not able to control the breakdown of polish consistently over the area worked. With the waffle pads unless the area worked is perfectly flat then they create an uneveness. With the CCS pads, do they not 'leak' polish from those dimples as they are being used.

Why go to the effort of micro milling your abrasive, if you are going to use it with anything other than a perefectly flat pad. The biggest plus point (well, one of them) of using Menzerna polishes over certain other brands is the very fine tolerance of abrasive particle size used by Menzerna polishes that allows for a consistent breakdown and thus consistent micromarring free finish when used.


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## maesal (Nov 24, 2005)

L200 Steve said:


> Despite a bit of hype on here from a few about 3M polishes being the next big thing, I still prefer the PO85RD finish a the best that I have seen. I always found that the 3M ranges of polishes that I've tried over the years to have a sharp abrasive, and I much prefer the rounder abrasive found in the Menzerna Ceramiclear range of polishes.
> 
> When using the PO85RD I always try and get the abrasive to have fully broken down at the same time as the lubricant in the polish is starting to dry.
> 
> ...


Trust me mate, the 50383 is as amazing as 85RD, 106FA, 106FF, etc... I used them a lot and the results with them are stunning. The one achieved via 50383 is diferent, but I can't tell if is better or worse, I think that it will be a personal opinion.
Here is a detail where I used the 50383 with the blue Propel pad. Probably, nobody could say just seeing pics if the results are better, I know, but is an example.
Regards mate !! :thumb:


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## A20 LEE (Feb 20, 2007)

This is what i'm looking to improve on, thats just 3.02 on a polishing pad! No orange here.


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## maesal (Nov 24, 2005)

A20 LEE said:


> This is what i'm looking to improve on, thats just 3.02 on a polishing pad! No orange here.


Using a finishing polish and a finishing pad you'll improve the finish, try it :thumb:


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## Clark @ PB (Mar 1, 2006)

L200 Steve said:


> IMHO there's not a lot to touch the Menzerna PO 85RD + Megs W9006 combo by Metabo for high level of finish.
> 
> You really want to have a good look at your technique, to ensure that you take the polish down to 'nothing' perfectly each set. Alter your speed of rotation, speed of movement of the polisher and amount of pressure you use to work the ploish. These 3, along with amount of polish used all play a big part in final finish.
> 
> ...


I would tend to agree...

After playing with many different polishes i'm sticking with the Menz polishes for now. Even 3.02 worked well (especially on harder paints) will come very very close to the finish of the 2 finishing polishes, on a few ocassions i've done a comparison between 3.02 and 85rd and couldnt see a noticeable difference in the clarity/gloss etc..

After machining with the Menz Polishes, even after HD Cleanse i can never see a difference, unless maybe on a solid black car, its not till the wax goes on that i see a difference...

As steve says, the key is to work the polishes very very well, i timed myself yesterday while working 3.02 with a polishing pad on an M3, i took nearly 6 minutes from starting the rotary to stopping it, and that was doing the majority of the passes @1800rpms...I've seen people machine at high speed till the defects are gone, then do a few more passes to refine the finish then stop, you definitely wont get as good a finish as you would if you continue for another minute or 2 

I think the next level of the ultimate shine would be to wet sand any OP from the paintwork, THEN you may be able to see more of a difference in the polishes you use


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## Skodaw (Mar 19, 2006)

I think that the amount of time that I work the polish on my PC is where I'm going wrong, as I quite often have to spray some qd on the panel to remove residue. That said I'm impressed with how the paint looks, but I know it could look soooo much better - I'm still getting to grips with the pressure required and how fast - will come with practise I'm sure( I hope) 
any chance of a PC Master Class L200 Steve ??? hint hint


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## A20 LEE (Feb 20, 2007)

Clark said:


> I would tend to agree...
> 
> After playing with many different polishes i'm sticking with the Menz polishes for now. Even 3.02 worked well (especially on harder paints) will come very very close to the finish of the 2 finishing polishes, on a few ocassions i've done a comparison between 3.02 and 85rd and couldnt see a noticeable difference in the clarity/gloss etc..
> 
> ...


thanks for taking the time to add your input Clark:thumb: . This is where i'm at with the 3.02. Quite pleased, did a wetsanding test section and it cuts out very easily on this paint compared to factory paint.


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## Epoch (Jul 30, 2006)

Hhhmmm been thinking about this for a while....


What about a DW TOP GUN event on rotary masterclass.

Get a couple of the elite rotary detailers
All chip in for a mule (black anything really)
Video it

Wet sand all over
Then polish to perfection

DVD's then produced for DW members at a reasonable cost


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## Brazo (Oct 27, 2005)

Clark has a good point whilst we are all very good at creating a superb finish, realistically for super flat and sharp reflections wet sanding out the OP will make a huge difference (relativly )


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## MK1Campaign (Mar 27, 2007)

Ive said many times but i dont rate the 3M polishes. They are far too wet for my liking.


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## bigsyd (Jul 2, 2006)

Epoch said:


> I guessing you have already but the processes used by Steve and Ant on the BM was all about reaching the best possible finish (refining)
> 
> So two sets of 3.02, then one of 106FF and then one of 85RD. When applying HD-C no difference real could be seen, quite amazing as HD usually leaves a noticeable difference in my experience.
> 
> ...


how the hell did i miss this post , must have been b4 my days at dw, a very enjoyable read :thumb:


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## TOGWT (Oct 26, 2005)

L200 Steve said:


> The CCS pads are flawed IMO for use as final finishing pads for rotary use. As are all waffle pads.
> 
> Unless a pad is perfectly flat, you are not able to control the breakdown of polish consistently over the area worked. With the waffle pads unless the area worked is perfectly flat then they create an uneveness. With the CCS pads, do they not 'leak' polish from those dimples as they are being used.
> 
> Why go to the effort of micro milling your abrasive, if you are going to use it with anything other than a perefectly flat pad. The biggest plus point (well, one of them) of using Menzerna polishes over certain other brands is the very fine tolerance of abrasive particle size used by Menzerna polishes that allows for a consistent breakdown and thus consistent micromarring free finish when used.


Each to his own, but CCS foam pads work for me- 
Closed Cell Structure, Constant Pressure Power Pad from Reisgies Schaumstoffe, Gmbh., Germany developed and used by Mercedes-Benz. These pads are manufactured from thermally reticulated, urethane foam with a 99% open cell structure The newer, harder, scratch-resistant clear coats require longer polishing times to remove swirls, spots and defects, the longer you polish with conventional foam pads, the less effective they become because polish migrates below the working surface of the pad; the pad "dries out."

CCS technology solves this problem using strategic patterns of partially closed foam cells. These cells slow the rate of polish absorption, gradually releasing polish as needed by the operator. CCS pockets reduce surface tension, prevent pad skipping *and allow the operator to run the pad flat on the working surface. These foam pads provide ample surface contact to effectively work the paint*. The pockets are small so they don't affect the amount of foam continuously touching the paint during operation.


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## maesal (Nov 24, 2005)

You're "the teacher" !! :thumb:


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## ianFRST (Sep 19, 2006)

L200 Steve said:


> The CCS pads are flawed IMO for use as final finishing pads for rotary use. As are all waffle pads.
> 
> Unless a pad is perfectly flat, you are not able to control the breakdown of polish consistently over the area worked. With the waffle pads unless the area worked is perfectly flat then they create an uneveness. With the CCS pads, do they not 'leak' polish from those dimples as they are being used.
> 
> Why go to the effort of micro milling your abrasive, if you are going to use it with anything other than a perefectly flat pad. The biggest plus point (well, one of them) of using Menzerna polishes over certain other brands is the very fine tolerance of abrasive particle size used by Menzerna polishes that allows for a consistent breakdown and thus consistent micromarring free finish when used.


ive used 85rd on the 3m blue waffle finishing pad, and its the best finishing pad ive used. i know its all about personal experience and all that, but i just thought id say :lol:


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## Phil H (May 14, 2006)

^^ agree with the above, the blue pads are just awesome with 85RD


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## L200 Steve (Oct 25, 2005)

I think that we need to get a few of us together with a couple of different pad set ups and a couple of different polishes. Get someone with a 3M Sun Gun to come along also, so that we can measure the finish by many different sets of eyes but the same lighting.

I think that'd be the best way to put this one to bed.:thumb:


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## paddy328 (Mar 4, 2007)

OK. where and when? Somwhere central would be best. How about the meet in wolves on the 16th?


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## A20 LEE (Feb 20, 2007)

L200 Steve said:


> I think that we need to get a few of us together with a couple of different pad set ups and a couple of different polishes. Get someone with a 3M Sun Gun to come along also, so that we can measure the finish by many different sets of eyes but the same lighting.
> 
> I think that'd be the best way to put this one to bed.:thumb:


Sounds brilliant. Yourself, Miracle, Dave KG and Clark have to be there, guess that makes Yorkshire the midpoint


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## Clark @ PB (Mar 1, 2006)

Epoch said:


> Hhhmmm been thinking about this for a while....
> 
> What about a DW TOP GUN event on rotary masterclass.
> 
> ...


Funnily enough we (Polished Bliss) may be doing this next year, on a particular Golf G60 Rallye...... 



A20 LEE said:


> Sounds brilliant. Yourself, Miracle, Dave KG and Clark have to be there, guess that makes Yorkshire the midpoint


I'd be well up for this, Myself and Rich are pretty keen to get down south to meet all those that we havent had the pleasure of meeting yet such as Brazo, [email protected] OYM, etc and yourself of course Lee :thumb:

Would just need a bit of notice though as we're now fully booked till the 2nd week of November!


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## Epoch (Jul 30, 2006)

A20 LEE said:


> Sounds brilliant. Yourself, Miracle, Dave KG and Clark have to be there, guess that makes Yorkshire the midpoint


Probably a few others as well!


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## Wheelie_Clean (Jun 16, 2007)

I am seeing a packed Sheffield Arena with half a dozen of the elite, center stage, rotaries blazing:lol: :lol:


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## Dream Machines (Mar 13, 2006)

I know some may not like this but I've been following 106FF with permagard PD5000 and Glare Pro Polish and infinity plus and finish up with aussie gold showroom glaze QD by rotary.

The glare permanently (wont wash out) fills in a little to most of the OP (depends on how heavy it is) and lifts the paint higher. PD5000 by hand will give more colour richness and aussie gold makes it incredibly slick and wet


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## phil440 (Aug 19, 2007)

A20 LEE said:


> Sounds brilliant. Yourself, Miracle, Dave KG and Clark have to be there, guess that makes Yorkshire the midpoint


i know im still a newbie to this place but if owt like this does ever happen i would like to tag along to see the results for my self??? mabi i could bring a car for you to practice on:thumb:


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