# Does this surprise you?



## Soul boy 68 (Sep 8, 2013)

*VW fiasco*

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-34311819

VW are hit with a scandal about mis - leading claims of exhausts emissions that seem to have been manipulated.


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## Clancy (Jul 21, 2013)

No, and I would be shocked if they are the only ones who have done it too


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## davies20 (Feb 22, 2009)

Clancy said:


> No, and I would be shocked if they are the only ones who have done it too


exactly this.

Its the same with MPG figures too - whack a car on a rolling road until it runs out of juice - not exactly real world tests!


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## Andyg_TSi (Sep 6, 2013)

Doesn't surprise me at all.

In the USA acclaimed mpg return (urban/extra urban/combined) is more accurate than the claims made for the European market.
They have to be, or they'd probably be a lawsuit.

I'm surprised the VW group have been so naive to assume they could get away with over exaggerate the claimed emissions data.

This could be a good thing, It could lead to the motor industry giving more realistic 'real world' information instead of basing their claims on laboratory data.


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

I've said for long enough that the manufacturers were rigging their cars for economy and emissions tests. 

VAG were always one of the worst.

I've got a feeling this could get really messy now. Wonder if owners will be forced to pay higher tax now and VW fined everywhere.


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## Clancy (Jul 21, 2013)

davies20 said:


> exactly this.
> 
> Its the same with MPG figures too - whack a car on a rolling road until it runs out of juice - not exactly real world tests!


2 of my family member work in car dealers, one of them work for mitsubishi, they have had a lot of customers come back and complain with brand new cars due to MPG figures

The phev hybrid claims something like 140 MPG, which as said is in a lab etc but real world figure are no where near that obviously

Like kerr said this will get messy now, opened a can of worms for the car industry


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## davies20 (Feb 22, 2009)

Clancy said:


> 2 of my family member work in car dealers, one of them work for mitsubishi, they have had a lot of customers come back and complain with brand new cars due to MPG figures
> 
> The phev hybrid claims something like 140 MPG, which as said is in a lab etc but real world figure are no where near that obviously
> 
> Like kerr said this will get messy now, opened a can of worms for the car industry


I think you have always got to have an open mind about MPG figures, my new car supposedly does 60mpg - but if it was to do high 40's 50's then im happy 

But to over inflate MPG & emission figures like they are doing is silly.

HOWEVER - the fact that people pay £2000 - 3000 more for a car because its £30 a year tax - and they think its saving them money over the 'higher' tax banded car - I'm not surprised manufactures are doing it!


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

Quite a number of cities have been looking to ban diesels from entering the city as NOX levels are far too high. 

Now we find they are way too high because VW, and probably other manufacturers, have been lying.

That's another nail in the diesel coffin for me.


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## Clancy (Jul 21, 2013)

Yeah I never trust stated figures but obviously some people believe it and are rightly angry over what they actually get 

Diesels will be phased out eventually but will take a long time


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

Clancy said:


> Yeah I never trust stated figures but obviously some people believe it and are rightly angry over what they actually get
> 
> Diesels will be phased out eventually but will take a long time


They are planning to have charges and bans in place by 2020. Some councils already charge extra for a diesel parking permit.


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## PugIain (Jun 28, 2006)

I couldn't give two hoots about what my diesel puts out. I don't believe because I live in a 'developed nation' I should have an environmental conscience when it's abundantly clear the remainder of the world doesn't.
Maybe I should, but whatever I do it'll end up costing me, will it not.


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## fatdazza (Dec 29, 2010)

PugIain said:


> I couldn't give two hoots about what my diesel puts out. I don't believe because I live in a 'developed nation' I should have an environmental conscience when it's abundantly clear the remainder of the world doesn't.
> Maybe I should, but whatever I do it'll end up costing me, will it not.


Trouble is, it is not so much what the rest of the world is doing. The issue with diesel cars is the pollution of the local environment and the effects on local air quality. Diesel cars in cities are a major cause of poor air quality in those cities, irrespective of the effects on the global climate.


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## millns84 (Jul 5, 2009)

They were caught out bribing magazines to write good reviews on their cars a while back so no, not surprised at all...


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## andystevens (Dec 12, 2011)

Kerr said:


> I've said for long enough that the manufacturers were rigging their cars for economy and emissions tests.
> 
> VAG were always one of the worst.
> 
> I've got a feeling this could get really messy now. Wonder if owners will be forced to pay higher tax now and VW fined everywhere.


If that is the case then if I was an owner of a VAG product I would then pass on that cost to VW.
This will make a serious dent in their finances.

Wasn't that long ago that we were all being told that diesel was better for the environment, I never believed it then especially when you get stuck behind one that hasn't been serviced!


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## chr15rey (Jun 17, 2008)

fatdazza said:


> Trouble is, it is not so much what the rest of the world is doing. The issue with diesel cars is the pollution of the local environment and the effects on local air quality. Diesel cars in cities are a major cause of poor air quality in those cities, irrespective of the effects on the global climate.


So what about the people who live next door to the power station supplying the electric for the emission free Electric & Hybrid cars? Or do Pixies put the electric back in while we sleep?

How long before electric/hybrid car tax goes through the roof?, a week after everyone buys one listening how it will save you money?


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## Franzpan (Mar 2, 2009)

Well it was to our benefit so thanks VW


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## m4rkymark (Aug 17, 2014)

I'm not really surprised, I would be more surprised if more manufacturers don't get caught doing the same kind of thing. There is already at least one set of lawyers talking to owners to raise a group class action against VW. How long will the man at the top manage to keep his job I wonder.


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## f4780y (Jun 8, 2015)

Yes, MPG and omissions testing never results in real world figures, but what is incredible about VW is they seem to have specifically coded their cars to recognise they are operating under test conditions and adjust their output accordingly. In other words, straight up cheating. How they thought they would get away with it is beyond me.

I remember Nvidia did something like this back in 2003, where the graphics drivers were coded to recognise that benchmarking tools were being run and adjusted the performance to give their graphics cards a better benchmark score. 

Once the cat was out of the bag, benchmarking actually became more reliable in the long run. Hopefully the same may happen in terms of omissions testing!


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## andystevens (Dec 12, 2011)

Could be the start of a similar debacle we had with the Banks. If you just think/assume ALL huge companies are crooks then we won't be too far wrong.

We are all told to be environmentally friendly, just a shame those who preach it don't actually practice it!


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## andystevens (Dec 12, 2011)

m4rkymark said:


> There is already at least one set of lawyers talking to owners to raise a group class action against VW. How long will the man at the top manage to keep his job I wonder.


Apparently he did say he was very sorry on the news,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, sorry they got caught I suspect.


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## m4rkymark (Aug 17, 2014)

andystevens said:


> Apparently he did say he was very sorry on the news,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, sorry they got caught I suspect.


Yes I seen that - as long as he said sorry that makes it all ok 😊


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## fatdazza (Dec 29, 2010)

fatdazza said:


> Trouble is, it is not so much what the rest of the world is doing. The issue with diesel cars is the pollution of the local environment and the effects on local air quality. Diesel cars in cities are a major cause of poor air quality in those cities, irrespective of the effects on the global climate.





chr15rey said:


> So what about the people who live next door to the power station supplying the electric for the emission free Electric & Hybrid cars? Or do Pixies put the electric back in while we sleep?
> 
> How long before electric/hybrid car tax goes through the roof?, a week after everyone buys one listening how it will save you money?


Bit of a strange reply  My point being that diesel cars are a major contributor to air pollution in cities. Power stations are not. And more people live in cities than "next door to power stations".


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## Alex_225 (Feb 7, 2008)

You mean a huge multi million earning corporation has rigged information to make them look more favourable so they earn more money???? I won't hear it!!! Haha

Sadly this is the case with most organisations. Full of bullsh!t until they get caught out.

As important as our planet is, it won't ever outweigh peoples 'need' to make money.


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

VW admits that it affects 11 million car.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-34325005

So I guess that's pretty much every diesel sold then, including UK cars?


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## andy665 (Nov 1, 2005)

Does not surprise me in the slightest - NoX emissions are a real problem for diesel engined vehicles and cheating to get the figures required would be cheaper than actually developing and fitting the technology required to truthfully get the required results as long they did NOT GET CAUGHT

Perhaps another nail in the coffin for diesel vehicles

Will HMRC go after VAG if its found that some of their vehicles sold in the UK are sitting in unrealistaically (false) vehicle excise bands - would hope they will


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## PugIain (Jun 28, 2006)

Hopefully it's VW that gets screwed, not the poor saps that bought their cars.
Bored to death driving to work AND a road tax price hike!


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## Harry_p (Mar 18, 2015)

It doesn't surprise me at all.

ALL manufacturers are fudging their figures.

Why do you think so many cars have 'sport' buttons now? It doesn't add any more power, all it's doing is sharpening up the response to where it should be, they standard maps are set with a soft throttle response to fudge emissions tests by softening out and delaying the the time it takes to reach full throttle.

A lot of the flatness or odd feeling at certain parts of the Rev range a lot of modern cars suffer from is due to engine mapping optimised to improve emission test results and fudge cars into lower tax bands to increase sales.


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## RD55 DUN (Dec 30, 2008)

A very worrying financial predicament coming VW way I think. No idea how they thought they would get away with it.

I wonder what impact this will have on the super cheap Golf R lease deals!?!

Oh...and I doubt they will be considering buying there F1 team.


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## andy665 (Nov 1, 2005)

Harry_p said:


> It doesn't surprise me at all.
> 
> ALL manufacturers are fudging their figures.
> 
> ...


But there is a world of difference between that and what VAG have done

All manufacturers want to / will optimise vehicles to achieve the best test results possible but inserting software that looks to identify a very specific set of circumstances and "cheat" the test is plain wrong


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## stuartr (Mar 11, 2014)

From what I've read currently it reduced NOX levels not CO2

How far up the management chain do you need to go to doctor software for emission tests ? and is the software the same world wide or just for U.S. engines ?

Whatever the case, there are a number of people out there having a bad day !


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## m4rkymark (Aug 17, 2014)

I see VW have said all cars across the UK and the EU will be recalled as they are affected too. also noticed that someone from www.transportenvironment.org has said more manufacturers use a similar device on their vehicles - are all diesel cars going to be pulled into this investigation? Are all manufacturers using a similar device to make diesels more attractive? I wonder where it will end...

http://www.express.co.uk/finance/ci...d-UK-cars-recalled-as-VW-boss-admits-screw-up


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## Bero (Mar 9, 2008)

Kerr said:


> I've said for long enough that the manufacturers were rigging their cars for economy and emissions tests.
> 
> VAG were always one of the worst.
> 
> I've got a feeling this could get really messy now. Wonder if owners will be forced to pay higher tax now and VW fined everywhere.





f4780y said:


> I remember Nvidia did something like this back in 2003, where the graphics drivers were coded to recognise that benchmarking tools were being run and adjusted the performance to give their graphics cards a better benchmark score.


And more recent examples of Samsung/Android

Or mechanical trickery before with Toyota Rally Team: -



> In 1995 TTE was banned for 12 months[1] from the World Rally Championship (WRC) for cheating by designing an illegal air restrictor[


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## stuartr (Mar 11, 2014)

And wasn't an F1 team accused of using launch control via software mods ?


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## SteveTDCi (Feb 8, 2006)

PugIain said:


> Hopefully it's VW that gets screwed, not the poor saps that bought their cars.
> Bored to death driving to work AND a road tax price hike!


:lol:

In all honesty it's probably unfair to raise the rfl on all those blinkered people, and there are all the v5's that would need reprinting.


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## Bero (Mar 9, 2008)

SteveTDCi said:


> :lol:
> 
> In all honesty it's probably unfair to raise the rfl on all those blinkered people, and there are all the v5's that would need reprinting.


If it gets that far my guess would be VW paying a fine and all V5s staying the same.

Everyone who bought a car that moved a VED band would have a claim against VW 'not as described/materially different to discription' etc.


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## SteveTDCi (Feb 8, 2006)

Actually nox isn't registered on the v5 is it only co2, so in relality it's going to be a big fine and lots of rework.


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## uruk hai (Apr 5, 2009)

I am surprised by the lengths they went to to do it but I'm not surprised that the figures claimed have been proven to be so far from reality.


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## andy665 (Nov 1, 2005)

Whilst the cheating concerns NoX emissions which are a very big issue for diesel engined vehicles its fair to say that there is a link between CO2 and NoX emissions in terms of one has an indirect impact on the other so I would be very surprised if the cheating that took place to lower NoX emissions did not impact on the CO2 figures too


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## stuartr (Mar 11, 2014)

From the web:-
The main problem areas for diesel engines are emissions of nitrogen oxides (NOx) and particulates, and these two pollutants are traded against each other in many aspects of engine design. Very high temperatures in the combustion chamber help reduce the emission of soot but produce higher levels of nitric oxide (NO). Lowering the peak temperatures in the combustion chamber reduces the amount of NO produced but increases the likelihood of soot formation. Better mixing of the air and fuel is the key to lower emissions. The NO produced rapidly oxidises to NO2 (collectively called NOx). NOx combines with hydrocarbons or volatile organic compounds in the presence of sunlight to form low level ozone. This leads to smog formation.


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## RisingPower (Sep 21, 2007)

chr15rey said:


> So what about the people who live next door to the power station supplying the electric for the emission free Electric & Hybrid cars? Or do Pixies put the electric back in while we sleep?
> 
> How long before electric/hybrid car tax goes through the roof?, a week after everyone buys one listening how it will save you money?


They live next to wind farms, solar farms or nuclear possibly?


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## knightstemplar (Jun 18, 2010)

The CEO of VW has just resigned, he had to really.


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## m500dpp (Feb 17, 2006)

He's 68 and no doubt not hard up for a bob or two! Bet he's glad to get out of it and not have to deal with the consequences.

His reputation? Well remember Fred Goodwin? He's now living quietly in his scottish mansion trousering £600k a year pension. Winterkorn will soon be forgotten and will be able to enjoy a peaceful retirement.

This affects the whole of Germany and it's rumoured that even the German Govt knew about it - the stock market there is forecast to be 10% lower in 2015/16 because of this. It's not just VW's reputation its the integrity of all German companies impacted.


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## GleemSpray (Jan 26, 2014)

My concern is that if VW go ahead with this UK recall, will the cars come back to the customer now re-mapped for good emissions and so will be much slower to drive with unresponsive engines ? Or will they come back with a kludged on AdBlue tank ? Or will they come back remapped with the offending software removed and a £205 annual tax liability ?

Anyway you slice it, this is a disaster.

My Golf Mk6 1.6 Tdi is, I believe, one of the affected cars and today the "Service Due in 15 Days" message has just appeared on the MFD, which is correct as was last serviced in Oct 2014.

I am not letting it anywhere near a VW workshop until they publically announce how they intend to deal with this issue. I am going to leave it until the end of October to see what they announce and will, if necessary, go to an independent garage for this service.

Currently, btw, the car drives great; its punchy and responsive for a 1.6 Diesel and does an easy 50+mpg. Road tax is (currently) £30 per year.

I think I now know why

I am, BTW, waiting for the first phone call at home, of an evening, where a recorded voice says :

" _Have you bought a Volkswagen Diesel in the last 6 years ? " ..... _


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## SteveTDCi (Feb 8, 2006)

Given the U.S. Have much stricter nox tests maybe the the UK cars are well within European regulations.


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## hibberd (Jul 5, 2006)

The point that is being missed here might well be if companies are cheating is it because the emmission targets and dates to achieve set by politicians are unachievable or too costly to achieve. Sometimes we get carried away by their dreams, zero emmision cars are zero because the car is not emitting them but the power station IS.


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## m4rkymark (Aug 17, 2014)

Looks like it's going to get worse for some people, the German govt. are now being implicated in the fraud - will heads roll there too? Also noises being made that it will be the nail in the coffin for diesel vehicles because they can never be clean and will always spew out harmful toxins... 

The surprising thing is this news were released 18months ago in public - wonder why nothing happened then?


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## f4780y (Jun 8, 2015)

hibberd said:


> The point that is being missed here might well be if companies are cheating is it because the emmission targets and dates to achieve set by politicians are unachievable or too costly to achieve. ...





m4rkymark said:


> Also noises being made that it will be the nail in the coffin for diesel vehicles because they can never be clean and will always spew out harmful toxins...


But I don't think that's the point - targets are being met and achieved across the industry without cheating and that's generally a positive thing. No engines are clean, so ever more stringent targets help drive innovation and improvement.

Manufacturers aren't struggling to meet the targets as a rule. In a marketplace where everyone is meeting the targets, VW chose to cheat in order to differentiate themselves and proclaim that they were number one on omissions, with the cleanest and most efficient diesels - in order to drive better sales.
They definitely didn't cheat because they couldn't meet the omissions targets in the first place - quite clearly they can exceed them easily.

The software in all these affected VW's can operate the engine in a mode which makes them the cleanest diesels in their class. But it only does this under certain conditions. Why not all the time? Well, the trade off for working in this mode is worse performance, lower efficiency, and other "side effects" which may not be desirable to the consumer or the manufacturer. If this wasn't the case then all engines would simply be run in their cleanest mode all the time. It is always a balancing act.

I can chip my current diesel and increase the performance by 25% and increase fuel economy by 12%, but at the expense of much higher emissions, increased engine wear, etc. I choose not to do this because I don't like the trade off and trust that BMW got the balance right for me and my car.

What VW have done is cheat the tests so that it appeared to the consumer that there was no trade off for their lower omissions.


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## 182_Blue (Oct 25, 2005)

Be carefull thinking that BMW and others have not been doing the same though.



> Transport & Environment says ICCT tests show clear discrepancies between laboratory emissions and real-world performance for several automakers including BMW, Mercedes-Benz and General Motors' Opel unit. It argued that these manufacturers might also employ similar kinds of software in Europe that VW has allegedly admitted to using in the U.S.
> 
> Emissions-reducing technologies "are optimized for the tested conditions and there is substantial anecdotal evidence that the cars detect when they are tested and deploy 'cycle-beating' techniques to reduce emissions," Transport & Environment said in its report.
> 
> "Other manufacturers are basically on the same line" as Volkswagen, said Francois Cuenot, Transport & Environment's air quality officer.





f4780y said:


> But I don't think that's the point - targets are being met and achieved across the industry without cheating and that's generally a positive thing. No engines are clean, so ever more stringent targets help drive innovation and improvement.
> 
> Manufacturers aren't struggling to meet the targets as a rule. In a marketplace where everyone is meeting the targets, VW chose to cheat in order to differentiate themselves and proclaim that they were number one on omissions, with the cleanest and most efficient diesels - in order to drive better sales.
> They definitely didn't cheat because they couldn't meet the omissions targets in the first place - quite clearly they can exceed them easily.
> ...


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## f4780y (Jun 8, 2015)

Shaun said:


> Be carefull thinking that BMW and others have not been doing the same though.


I understand, and I'm sure the scandal isn't over, but the issues seem to get confused. Most informed people understand that real world test conditions are different from laboratory ones and therefore there must, by definition, be clear discrepancies in the results of those tests versus "actual". Few if any of us get the MPG which the manufacturer suggests for this very reason. That doesn't mean all of them cheated.
The reason we employ laboratory tests to provide a consistent baseline for comparison and most agree that lab tests can be improved by simulating the real world better. That is happening right now in the UK and elsewhere. It shouldn't be a scandal to discover that a laboratory test provide more favourable performance, efficiency, and omissions results than the real world.

The issue is whether or not manufacturers are cheating the laboratory test to skew their results, meaning that in the real world the engine does not operate in a way that would be consistent with the discrepancies you would naturally expect to find 

Do I believe they are all cheating - not for a minute. Why? Because I'm sure that if BMW were cheating they'd be better at it than VW and would be "number one" easily! :lol: - other members should feel free to substitute BMW with their favourite marque :thumb:


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## Rayaan (Jun 1, 2014)

According to BBC, BMW have been cheating too after finding one of their SUV's putting out way more emissions than its supposed to. 

Appears that it also extends to European cars and 500,000 Seat's may also be involved. 

The Audi A3 is involved and one of the VAG engines involved was their 3.0 V6 TDI which is used across the board in Audi's and Porsche 

No reports on whether Merc has been playing the same game and no one has mentioned any other makers involved.


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## Tricky Red (Mar 3, 2007)

Ironic that USA appears to be one of the largest polluters in the world and never adopted the Kyoto Treaty for improvements to combat climate change.


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## Rayaan (Jun 1, 2014)

Update from my last post - the BMW in question was the X3 20d. Get this - it was pumping out nearly 12 times the *EURO 6* nox limit when tested independently

And rumour has it that hackenberg from Audi is on his way out as is Hatz from porsche


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## m4rkymark (Aug 17, 2014)

f4780y said:


> But I don't think that's the point - targets are being met and achieved across the industry without cheating and that's generally a positive thing. No engines are clean, so ever more stringent targets help drive innovation and improvement.
> 
> Manufacturers aren't struggling to meet the targets as a rule. In a marketplace where everyone is meeting the targets, VW chose to cheat in order to differentiate themselves and proclaim that they were number one on omissions, with the cleanest and most efficient diesels - in order to drive better sales.
> They definitely didn't cheat because they couldn't meet the omissions targets in the first place - quite clearly they can exceed them easily.
> ...


They were cheating because VW didn't meet the clean air targets in the USA - only 3% of cars in the USA are diesels because their tests are so stringent. Unlike the many 1000s of diesels here and in the Euro. Looks like they were cheating in Germany too given the output of diesel cars was tweaked to match the what the test said it should be.


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## Frothey (Apr 30, 2007)

Funny how VW are all over the press due to cheating emissions, yet GM hardly gets a mention for admitting to faults that have killed 100+ people. Funny how whenever there's bad news from a US manufacturer, their government go after a 'foreign' one - shades of the Toyota recalls that was caused by an American part!

NOx is on the V5 btw, the VED system is changing to a combined CO/NOx/Particulates system, which has been on the V5 since 2001. Which is why everyone's trying to get their engines to Euro6 compliance. Toyota have stopped their passenger car diesels because it wasn't worth them designing an engine and use BMW's (in return for BMW wanting their hybrid technology) - bet they're sweating a bit on that deal!


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## Rayaan (Jun 1, 2014)

Frothey said:


> Funny how VW are all over the press due to cheating emissions, yet GM hardly gets a mention for admitting to faults that have killed 100+ people. Funny how whenever there's bad news from a US manufacturer, their government go after a 'foreign' one - shades of the Toyota recalls that was caused by an American part!
> 
> NOx is on the V5 btw, the VED system is changing to a combined CO/NOx/Particulates system, which has been on the V5 since 2001. Which is why everyone's trying to get their engines to Euro6 compliance. Toyota have stopped their passenger car diesels because it wasn't worth them designing an engine and use BMW's (in return for BMW wanting their hybrid technology) - bet they're sweating a bit on that deal!


All that's been done and dusted though, the current VW issue is still uncertain as to how many manufacturers are involved.

Regardless, according to the daily mail, the UK government has ordered retesting of all DIESEL vehicles. VED may subsequently go up as a result.


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-34377443

I don't think it'll come as a shock now, but Audi have admitted they have being playing the same game.


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## 182_Blue (Oct 25, 2005)

Rayaan said:


> All that's been done and dusted though, the current VW issue is still uncertain as to how many manufacturers are involved.
> 
> Regardless, according to the daily mail, the UK government has ordered retesting of all DIESEL vehicles. VED may subsequently go up as a result.


The same people who uncovered the VW scandal also found the BMW x3 (surely this engine is shared amongst other BMW's and it can't be the only engine they have fiddled with) to be even worse than any of the VW emissions irregualaties ,weirdly they seem to be missing most of the press though.



> _Auto Bild said the BMW X3 xDrive 20d exceeded limits on nitrogen oxides emissions more than elevenfold in road tests by the International Council on Clean Transportation (ICCT). This is even worse than the VW Passat's performance.
> 
> Peter Mock of ICCT told the magazine: "All data suggests that this issue is not confined to VW."_


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## possul (Nov 14, 2008)

Do seat and skoda come into it. 
Been to a saab 9-3 and he seems to think his ved will change for some reason. Reckons they all must pf been cheating somehow


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## lofty (Jun 19, 2007)

Have any other manufacturers come out and admitted any wrong doing ? I don't recall seeing any of them rush to their own defence yet. If I was a manufacturer I'd be shouting from the rooftops if I hadn't been fiddling. I think the silence says a lot.


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## 182_Blue (Oct 25, 2005)

lofty said:


> Have any other manufacturers come out and admitted any wrong doing ? I don't recall seeing any of them rush to their own defence yet. If I was a manufacturer I'd be shouting from the rooftops if I hadn't been fiddling. I think the silence says a lot.


Quite a few have been at it for a long time, either using software or providing cars that are tweaked for tests etc etc, a few have said they don't use software like VW, but that to me says they have used other methods to get round it, in the long run this will be a good thing hopefully as the governments should now have more stringent tests put in place (it has to be better than letting the actual companies regulate themselves !!) , not just for emissions but MPG etc etc


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

lofty said:


> Have any other manufacturers come out and admitted any wrong doing ? I don't recall seeing any of them rush to their own defence yet. If I was a manufacturer I'd be shouting from the rooftops if I hadn't been fiddling. I think the silence says a lot.


They are all at it. If VAG's emissions were miles better than anyone, then it might just be them, but it's not.

Having spoken to numerous dealers recently, they are desperate to convince me to buy a diesel. I guess the only people that would is if they haven't seen the news. There are going to struggle to shift them now.

A couple admitted they've been briefed on what to say.


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## f4780y (Jun 8, 2015)

Shaun said:


> The same people who uncovered the VW scandal also found the BMW x3 (surely this engine is shared amongst other BMW's and it can't be the only engine they have fiddled with) to be even worse than any of the VW emissions irregualaties ,weirdly they seem to be missing most of the press though.


It's not weird Shaun. The reason it isn't being reported is that the news agencies have realised that due to the facts of the story, linking it with the VW scandal is dangerous.

Autobild published an article stating a BMW X3 20d had failed one of the ICCTs *real world emissions tests*, whilst 14 other BMW diesel models had passed. In the VW hysteria, several news agencies picked up on this and incorrectly dragged BMW into the story, wiping millions off of their share price in the process.

Later, Autobild clarified that the reported emission levels were recorded during a single one hour road test and the magazine was not accusing BMW of using a defeat device or any other method to cheat emission tests. In fact Autobuild had no access to any of the actual test data when they published the article, only the result that the X3 20d had failed the single run test. Since that point, the news agencies have stopped linking the two stories because of the facts.

A failure on a single test can be explained for a number of reasons and at the time of publication neither Autobild or BMW had been given the opportunity to analyse the test conditions or the results and come to a conclusion. It is an extremely long stretch to suggest that a single failed test indicates all BMWs are "even worse than any of the VW emissions". 
These were real world road test where 14 out of 15 BMW diesel engines passed, so a VW defeat device would have been useless. Yes, something has gone wrong on the test involving the X3 20d, and that might be an issue which BMW needs to resolve. Equally it could be a problem with that one test run by the ICCT.
I've heard some folks say it shows the defeat device in the X3 must have failed, and that's proof BMW are cheating. But this was a real world test, so a "real world defeat device" makes no logical sense. Real world driving is just real world driving. If any kind of device is lowering the emissions for real world driving, you simply call it a good clean engine management system! What is much more likely is that a normal engine component, likely in the exhaust system, was defective on this one car for this one test.

I'm not for a minute suggesting that the scandal won't widen, and neither am I saying BMW definitely won't be involved, but this story simply does not correlate with the ongoing scandal, and that's the reason it is no longer being widely pursued in the media.


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## NiallSD (May 21, 2013)

f4780y, well considered reply. Hopefully out of all of this, the used car market will be more competitive haha!!


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## f4780y (Jun 8, 2015)

NiallSD said:


> f4780y, well considered reply. Hopefully out of all of this, the used car market will be more competitive haha!!


I think for sure there will be some diesel bargains to be had for quite a while :thumb:

Equally, they aren't right for everyone, so horses for courses, as they say!


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## Deniance (Jun 28, 2008)

Its got to be head rolling time for these companies? 11 million vw now 2.1 million audis, that is some compensation bill!, but i bet the directors are well covered,or dont care because they are millionaires anyway!, you would be fuming tho!, buying a new car and paying 2k for the green badge on the back, thinking its a clean car!, now your waiting for an email to take said car back for a demap!, how on gods earth did they think they would get away with it?,

I mean the emissions rules are not to be broken, end of, you could understand a mistake,but this is obviously calculated and known about! I really cannot believe that they were stupid enough to do it!, they have knowingly advertised and sold cars to honest people ,premium brands, and lied and misled people, shocking really


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

It will hit prices badly. They've already suspended sales in some countries too.

I doubt there is many people who bought the cars as they thought they were super green, it's the cheap road tax, cheap company car tax and economy. 

They are now likely to face an increase on the tax front.

We are only years away of diesels getting phased out anyway. They are going to be priced out of, or banned, from entering cities.

The charges are getting stacked up making them not so cost effective.


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## MagpieRH (May 27, 2014)

Kerr said:


> It will hit prices badly. They've already suspended sales in some countries too.
> 
> I doubt there is many people who bought the cars as they thought they were super green, it's the cheap road tax, cheap company car tax and economy.
> 
> ...


They're not really green though, and they never have been. Yes, the CO2 emissions are lower than the equivalent petrol, and they go further on a gallon, but they pump out carcinogens and other harmful gases.
I think most people buy diesel for the purported economy benefits, and cheaper running costs, rather than the green-ness (although I accept there are people who believe they're being green by using diesel).

Had forgotten about the company car angle, again I think it depends on the government response, but any excuse to gain a bit more money from the taxpayer...


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## slineclean (Dec 23, 2011)

They say about compensation claims . In what type will this be once they put the fault wrong.

I've had two bills on emissions works. What's to say they were caused as a result of this ? One bill £900+ and one £180

Audi 1.6TDI



Deniance said:


> Its got to be head rolling time for these companies? 11 million vw now 2.1 million audis, that is some compensation bill!, but i bet the directors are well covered,or dont care because they are millionaires anyway!, you would be fuming tho!, buying a new car and paying 2k for the green badge on the back, thinking its a clean car!, now your waiting for an email to take said car back for a demap!, how on gods earth did they think they would get away with it?,
> 
> I mean the emissions rules are not to be broken, end of, you could understand a mistake,but this is obviously calculated and known about! I really cannot believe that they were stupid enough to do it!, they have knowingly advertised and sold cars to honest people ,premium brands, and lied and misled people, shocking really


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## Rayaan (Jun 1, 2014)

VW group suspended 4000 vehicle sales in the uk apparently


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

It's now being reported that the latest models also have systems in place to cheat the figures.


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## alan hanson (May 21, 2008)

Of course they did once they knew they could get away with it why stop?

I dont think it will change peoples views on diesels that much tbh, everyones tax was changing in 2017 to 140 basic anyhows, they know vw will fix it and the end user wont be liable .

I also dont think anyone will get any compensation just the offer to put it right which i think alot of people will think sod that i have a car with no issues why would i want them to flash the cu or what ever and risk the car not running right afterwards?


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## 182_Blue (Oct 25, 2005)

Glad you reminded me of what i was reading in the mail the other day (below)



> Dr James Tate, lecturer and researcher at the Institute for Transport Studies at Leeds University, said: 'The surprising finding for us was that even the Volkswagen engines were polluting 35 per cent less than other comparable cars, suggesting all manufacturers have found their own ways of passing the laboratory tests.





> Volkswagen's offending cars released 4.2 times the EU limit but other cars were worse












Plus this one

http://www.theguardian.com/environm...llution-in-real-driving-conditions-tests-show



> New diesel cars from Renault, Nissan, Hyundai, Citroen, Fiat, Volvo and other manufacturers have been found to emit substantially higher levels of pollution when tested in more realistic driving conditions, according to new data seen by the Guardian.
> 
> Research compiled by Adac, Europe's largest motoring organisation, shows that some of the diesel cars it examined released over 10 times more NOx than revealed by existing EU tests, using an alternative standard due to be introduced later this decade.





> Peter Mock, one of the team at the International Council on Clean Transportation who exposed the VW diesel scandal, said the Adac test centre was "absolutely trustworthy".


There all as bad as each other, VW were just stupid by actually adding something to the cars instead of just pretending they passed the tests or by providing tweaked cars for the tests !


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## PugIain (Jun 28, 2006)

You see, most people buy diesels because they think they will save them money.
I buy diesels because the car I like happens to be a diesel. Or in the case of the 508 GT, is only available as a diesel.
3 of my last 4 cars have been diesel, I bought a petrol 406 because I liked it and it was cheaper than a diesel one.
No matter what drives your car we share one thing in common. We will get screwed for it at some point. Even if we all drove zero emission vehicles, something would be invented to tax us for it.


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

*Panorama 20.30 23rd Nov- The VW emissions scandal*

Just noticed that they've got a programme on tonight. BBC 1 at 20.30

Just a heads up as it does interest and affect people.


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## Alan W (May 11, 2006)

Kerr said:


> Just noticed that they've got a programme on tonight. BBC 1 at 20.30
> 
> Just a heads up as it does interest and affect people.


Bump - starts in 10 minutes. 

Alan W


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

Alan W said:


> Bump - starts in 10 minutes.
> 
> Alan W


Hopefully it will be a good programme, Panorama usually make a good documentary.


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## Alan W (May 11, 2006)

Kerr said:


> IHopefully it will be a good programme, Panorama usually make a good documentary.


As much about the serious health issues surrounding Diesel engines as the VW scandal although the 2 subjects are obviously closely linked.

Interesting to see that the Opel tested was way above the published emissions levels also..

Alan W


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## 182_Blue (Oct 25, 2005)

Alan W said:


> As much about the serious health issues surrounding Diesel engines as the VW scandal although the 2 subjects are obviously closely linked.
> 
> Interesting to see that the Opel tested was way above the published emissions levels also..
> 
> Alan W


I have said it before and will say it again they are all as bad and some are worse for emissions.

From above



182_Blue said:


> Glad you reminded me of what i was reading in the mail the other day (below)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

It does appear a lot of people are digging their heads in the sand over this. It has been a few months since VW were caught, but it doesn't appear as if anyone wants to make things even worse. 

So far every car that has been tested, that I've seen, has also failed. Like tonight the manufacturer turns around and says we've not got any cheat device. 

Nobody has explained why they are so far out. There has to be a reason for consistent failures. 

I didn't think Panorama brought anything new to the table tonight. They just seemed to be highlighting the same issues again. 

It just strikes me as if a lot of people would like this debacle to be swept under the carpet.


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## SteveTDCi (Feb 8, 2006)

I'm sure people do want it brushed under the table, but if you did want to be kind to the environment then people shouldn't have purchased diesels. I bet 95% of people purchased diesels because they were lured in by £0 road tax and the thought of 60mpg when in reality the types of trips people do are completely wrong for diesels.

There might be other manufactures out there, there might not. VW have just be caught out.


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## Alan W (May 11, 2006)

The way I see it is the 'VW Scandal' has only highlighted the serious health hazards surrounding Diesel engine pollutants and the result will be the slow demise of this engine from privately owned vehicles (as distinct from commercial vehicles).

Alan W


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

They are saying VW could be sued for mis-selling diesel cars. You can equally look towards our Government who made it attractive to buy diesel. They also told people that diesel was clean, but have turned out to be completely wrong. 

They are also part guilty of pushing people into diesels. 

I guess that if there was a clamp down on all these companies, with the costs and fines being banded about, they won't be companies for long.


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## andy665 (Nov 1, 2005)

Kerr said:


> They are saying VW could be sued for mis-selling diesel cars. You can equally look towards our Government who made it attractive to buy diesel. They also told people that diesel was clean, but have turned out to be completely wrong.
> 
> They are also part guilty of pushing people into diesels.
> 
> I guess that if there was a clamp down on all these companies, with the costs and fines being banded about, they won't be companies for long.


I agree but the facts were always out there for those who were prepared to look - one of the reasons why I never bought a diesel was discovering just how "dirty" they were - sadly most people never looked beyond the media / marketing messages


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