# Rotary vs Porter Cable



## LaSarthe&Back (Nov 9, 2006)

How much quicker us a Rotary vs a Porter Cable? I'm not strong enough to stop the pad from spinning when on speed 6, and am convinced this is hindering it's performance (maybe it's my technique??).

I imagine a rotary to get more heat quicker (and hence more dangerous) and thus take the work time per panel down.

Any thoughs welcome!


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## Neil_S (Oct 26, 2005)

For me it tends to be about twice as quick, although I find I get more fussy so this time can get eaten up!


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## beardboy (Feb 12, 2006)

I'm in the process of buying a PC or Rotary. Which would be best for a beginner at Machining, i know PC, but i don't want to buy a PC, to find a month down the line i want a rotary.

Could a beginner at it, start with a rotary, obviously after practising?


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## rad_brad (Aug 1, 2007)

well im brand new to machining and got a rotary tomorrow and picking up a pc tomorrow:lol:

getting the pc as from what i have read on here they are easier to use first off. im sure you could learn first with a rotary, id just want to practice a lot with it first


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## Jakedoodles (Jan 16, 2006)

I've actually gone backwards - from a rotary years ago (that's now dead) to a new PC. The PC is safer in terms of heat etc, so if you've not got a lot of clearcoat to play with, there's less chance of burn through. The rotary is much more powerful though, and will correct much quicker. It all depends what you are happy with really. I don't feel the need to go back to a rotary - as the PC is doing the trick nicely.


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## Neil_S (Oct 26, 2005)

A PC is a good tool to start with, it should be able to remove defects on the vast majority of cars and with good guidance it really is a tool you can take to your car immediately.

You can do damage with a PC, thats why you need to readup before hand, but it is alot more difficult than with a Rotary.

A Rotary is a different animal and since I've been using it for around a year now I am always learning and always picking up new tips and techniques, initially I found it a nightmare, but that changed when I used a decent rotary. Buy cheap, buy twice IMHO.


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## beardboy (Feb 12, 2006)

Cool. Thanks for the tips. So with a PC you can correct BMW, VAG etc paint, even with it being hard as nails?


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## Neil_S (Oct 26, 2005)

beardboy said:


> Cool. Thanks for the tips. So with a PC you can correct BMW, VAG etc paint, even with it being hard as nails?


I could correct the swirls on my Audi, but it was long hard soul destroying work! But that was pre ceramiclear Menzerna which should help considerably.

PC'ing my bonnet with Powergloss took 5 hours, with a rotary I could have that done oh so much quicker and with a better finish.


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## beardboy (Feb 12, 2006)

Excellent. Will get that then, or would you wait for the 240v UDM? Any chance you could PM a list of things to buy, with the PC, such as polishes, pads, backing plates etc?

Ta


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## spitfire (Feb 10, 2007)

beardboy said:


> Cool. Thanks for the tips. So with a PC you can correct BMW, VAG etc paint, even with it being hard as nails?


Yip!:thumb:


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## Coxy914 (Jan 14, 2007)

Why not get a UDM rather than a PC??


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## Neil_S (Oct 26, 2005)

SFX pads with the PC, both 6 inch and 4 inch spots are the key things to buy with your PC.


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## beardboy (Feb 12, 2006)

How does this sound for starters, or slightly overkill?

Sonus SFX Polisher Kit x1
Sonus SFX-1 Spot Pad x5
Sonus SFX-2 Spot Pad x5
Sonus SFX-3 Spot Pad x5
3.5" Dual-Action Spot Pad Backing Plate x1
Sonus SFX-1 Swirl and Scratch Remover Pad x5
Sonus SFX-2 Paint Polishing Pad x5
Sonus SFX-3 Final Finish & Wax Pad x5
Sonus DAS Buffing Bonnet, Pkg/2 x1
Meguiars Mirror Glaze #83 Dual Action Cleaner Polish x1
Sonus SFX-1 Restore Polish x1
Sonus SFX-2 Enhance Swirl Remover x1
Sonus SFX-3 Final Finish Polish x1

Total: $557.48


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## Coxy914 (Jan 14, 2007)

beardboy said:


> How does this sound for starters, or slightly overkill?
> 
> Sonus SFX Polisher Kit x1
> Sonus SFX-1 Spot Pad x5
> ...


How often do you intend on doing this (machine polishing that is)??

With that amount of pads, that'll last a few years unless you're doing this on a day to day basis!


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## beardboy (Feb 12, 2006)

Intend on doing it for friends and family to start, building upto more and more.


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## Coxy914 (Jan 14, 2007)

beardboy said:


> Intend on doing it for friends and family to start, building upto more and more.


probably overkill on the pads to be honest.
Try one or 2 to start of with and see how you get on with them.
Sometimes it's a case of finding the best polish and pad combo which works for you.
Also, if you are ordering from the States, why not buy the UDM instead of the PC from Autopia? More power and a far better machine. Has mine 2 weeks and only use the pc for spot polishing now so i don't have to change the backing plate!!!

http://www.autopia-carcare.com/ultimate-detailing-machine-car-polisher.html

also, include (or order from elsewhere) so Menzerna IP (PO85 RD3.02). If you are doing Audi/VW/BMW paints, the Sonus pads and polish won't touch it much in comparison with a pc.


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## beardboy (Feb 12, 2006)

Really? I was toying with the UDM to be honest, but wasn't sure whether it'd be worth it. Wouldn't it be better to wait for the 240V uk version though?


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## Coxy914 (Jan 14, 2007)

beardboy said:


> Really? I was toying with the UDM to be honest, but wasn't sure whether it'd be worth it. Wouldn't it be better to wait for the 240V uk version though?


That's your call but if you're going to be buying a PC you may as well just buy the UDM as they are both 110v and you'll need a transformer to use a PC anyway. And for the price difference, it's hardly worth quibbling about!


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## beardboy (Feb 12, 2006)

Good point. I forgot about the transformer! :lol:
How's this:

Meguiars Mirror Glaze #83 Dual Action Cleaner Polish 
Sonus SFX-1 Restore Polish 
Sonus SFX-2 Enhance Swirl Remover 
Sonus SFX-3 Final Finish Polish
Ultimate Detailing Machine Model 1000 
DAS Pad Bundle & Bonnet x2


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## Coxy914 (Jan 14, 2007)

beardboy said:


> Good point. I forgot about the transformer! :lol:
> How's this:
> 
> Meguiars Mirror Glaze #83 Dual Action Cleaner Polish
> ...


Sounds better!
Get an extra orange pad though!!
And then get some Menz polish!!
That's enough to get you started on the polishing side of things!!
Not overly keen on the Sonus polish range tbh but again, that's down to personal choice. Everybody has their favourites. I've just got accustomed to using the Menzerna range so kicked the other stuff into touch!
used to use Sonus and Poorboys but found the Menzerna range far superior and as a few of the traders stock it, I can order it and it will be with the in 1 or 2 days!


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## beardboy (Feb 12, 2006)

Cool.

I've removed the Sonus stuff, and will get Menz stuff then from CYC or CAS or something.

What discount do we get from Autopia? 10, 15 or 20%?


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## Coxy914 (Jan 14, 2007)

beardboy said:


> Cool.
> 
> I've removed the Sonus stuff, and will get Menz stuff then from CYC or CAS or something.
> 
> What discount do we get from Autopia? 10, 15 or 20%?


dunno, I just pressed order. Business credit card so didn't pay attention and didn't bother looking for the discount code!!!


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## beardboy (Feb 12, 2006)

Lol.

Fair enough. I'll be ordering it for personal use...for now. Guess i can get the rotary (if i do) using the company credit card - if it goes well! lol

Thanks for your help mate. :thumb:


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## Brazo (Oct 27, 2005)

beardboy said:


> Cool. Thanks for the tips. So with a PC you can correct BMW, VAG etc paint, even with it being hard as nails?


I would say no mate!!

Yes it can be done but I would liken the experience to emptying a swimming pool with a tea spoon! it can be done but do you really want to do it?


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## beardboy (Feb 12, 2006)

Brazo said:


> I would say no mate!!
> 
> Yes it can be done but I would liken the experience to emptying a swimming pool with a tea spoon! it can be done but do you really want to do it?


That's what i thought from your PM a while back. Would the UDM be any better at VAG, BMW etc paint?


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## Epoch (Jul 30, 2006)

beardboy said:


> That's what i thought from your PM a while back. Would the UDM be any better at VAG, BMW etc paint?


Table spoon!


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## Glossmax (May 9, 2007)

Duel mode machine for me, best of both worlds. Although still a bit short of the Rotary cutting power, but we've got to be talking buckets rather than spoons.


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## beardboy (Feb 12, 2006)

Dual mode machine? Would that be the UDM or something completely different?


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## TOGWT (Oct 26, 2005)

*Rotary Polisher:*
A high-speed polishing machine (Porter-Cable 7428, a Makita, DeWalt, Metabo, Hitachi, etc, which are all fine high-speed rotary machines) that have a direct-drive with selectable speed control that maintains a constant speed under varying loads conditions.

Used mainly by body repair / paint shops or very experienced detailers to rectify more serious paint film surface imperfections using a Velcro baking plate, foam pads of varying coarseness and an abrasive compound or polish to remove swirl marks, scratches and paint defects, using their high (revolution) speed and friction heat to enable compounds to abrade the paint film surface that require more power /speed than a random orbital buffer can provide. 
(See also Section 13 HS Rotary Polisher)

*Common mistakes -*1. Diminishing abrasives- you need to allow the abrasives to break down (become progressively smaller) to create a great finish or you may impart surface marring, holograms or worse. The point at which a polish is fully broken down comes with experience but a good yard stick is when the polish has become clear and can easily be wiped off. 
2. Ensure a 'wet' polishing film is always present between your pad and the surface. Swirls are usually caused d by using an aggressive polish without breaking down the diminishing abrasives properly, or you may have used too much polish or it may have dried. To remove spritz the pad with a quick detailer or distilled water (do not add further polish) and re-polish using the polish left on the pad.
3. 'Buffer hop' is when the rotary jumps across the paints surface usually due to insufficient polish/lubrication and as the foam pad grips the paint it jumps. Try spreading the polish more evenly across the pad, add more polish, distilled water or quick detailer (QD)
4. High RPM i.e. >1700 will cause high surface temperatures (should be limited to 1000F / 300 C<) 1150F
450 C will damage clear coat to the point were it requires repainting. 
5. The HS Rotary requires no more pressure than that required to 'hold' it on the paint surface

*Random orbital buffer:*
A US power tool company, Porter-Cable established in 1914, began manufacturing an electrically operated Variable-Speed Random-Orbit Polisher in the 1990s for the wood-working industry, now one of the most popular tools used by professional and enthusiast automotive detailers alike. Often known by the companies initials PC (Porter-Cable) but also called a ROB (random orbital buffer) or DA (duel action) polisher

The random orbital buffer gets is name from the action of the buffer (or polishing head) This operates by the shaft rotating and spinning the back plate on an orbit radius or an eccentric offset (or throw) of 5/32-inch as opposed to a revolution on a direct-drive system, and within this eccentric orbit it also rotates in very small circles

The Porter-Cable random orbital buffer operates with a variable speed, user adjustable, from 2,500 - 6,000 orbits per minute. (Speed # 1-5 also have a half speed setting) The application of detailing products with a random orbital has the advantage of ensuring an even pressure and constant contact speed, mimicking free hand motion but at a far greater speed. By allowing the weight and the random motion of the machine do the work, thus ensuring that the product is applied in a thin even layer, and will allow products to get embedded deeper into the paint film surface's porosity.

Apply wax or polish at speed 3, remove polish at speed 5-5.5 I would not advice using speed 6 for long periods due to heat generated to the Velcro® on the backing plate may cause delaminating of the glue that adheres the Velcro® to the foam pad. A random orbital buffer won't leave swirl or buffer marks on your paint. That's because it doesn't spin like a rotary nor does it have the rotaries speed or power. The elliptical motion mimics hand movements, only much, much faster

*Notes - *
If you are using an orbital on a 'hard' clear coat (i.e. Audi, BMW Corvette, GM, VW, etc) use a 5-inch Lake County (LC) closed cell structure (CCS) foam pad and a 4.5-inch baking plate

One of the better polishes I've found that will reduce imperfections and finish down the furthest is Menzerna PO106FF; this polish is foam pad 'dependant' as far as its paint correction abilities are concerned. I'd recommend a two level foam pad / polish system to really bring out the paint. Start with PO 106ff and an LC Orange foam pad and follow with white foam. Menzerna polishes will not finish up dry, but will always have a hazy film to them, use them until the haze changes from the polish colour to almost transparent

_*Some alternative random orbital buffers;*_ Rotex RO125 , Flex X1107VE, Bosch Gex 150 Turbo

*TOGWT*


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## Glossmax (May 9, 2007)

beardboy said:


> Dual mode machine? Would that be the UDM or something completely different?


Something like a Festool 125feq. 
The two modes are how the PC works and how a Rotary works.
I.E. in one mode the machine works just like a random orbital buffer and in the other mode (forced Rotary) it behaves very much like a Rotary machine. In this mode the pad spins around the center axis, but still has a tiny bit of random orbital motion in it which makes it safer than a pure Rotary. This movement cannot be felt and vibration is as good or better than a Rotary. As there is no direct drive the Rotational speed is limited to around 900 rpm.
The Festool is also a very high Quality tool, but can be had for a bit less than you see advertised.
vxrmarc uses the older 150e version (I have the same one) to very good effect.

The Festool, Flex and Bosch are not just Alternatives to the PC or UDM they are far more and there forced Rotary mode really does sit in the middle of the random orbital buffer machine and the Rotary Machine.

More Powerful than a PC (and a lot less vibration)
Safer than a Rotary


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## blaze1235 (Oct 1, 2006)

I've ben considering buying a rotary for those tougher jobs but the worry of damaging peoples paintwork is putting me off for the moment.

these dual action seem like a logical step

i don't suppose having a pc dual and eventually a rotary would hurt :buffer:


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## Glossmax (May 9, 2007)

Thats what I have done.
Email sent.


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