# BH Auto-foam dilution rate



## RichD1 (Jan 22, 2014)

Just about to use it for the first time through a pump sprayer but am a bit confused by the dilution rate.

Reading about AF on here I've always had 4% in my mind but reading the label it says a feed rate up to 1:100 which is only 1%.

If it had said a feed rate down to 1:100 I would have been reasonably happy.

Which is correct?

Richard


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## Andy from Sandy (May 6, 2011)

4% is correct for a dilution that shouldn't affect your LSP. So that would be 40ml per 960ml of water for a 1litre mix. 

Above that but to what strength I am not sure but I have stripped the wax off my car with it.

The feed rate is when using a pressure washer with the auto foam in a lance which is not the same as a static mix in a pump sprayer.


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## neilmcl (Mar 26, 2010)

Anything up to 5% in a pump sprayer is perfectly fine, most of us use a 4% PIR.


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## Andyblue (Jun 20, 2017)

As above, PIR of around 4% - I use it via garden pump sprayer and not had an issue


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## RichD1 (Jan 22, 2014)

Thanks guys. 

Just completed my first pre-wash and I found it difficult to keep the panels wet with a pump sprayer. It was drying out even before I had got round the car. I also used 5 litres of mix to do the wheels and bodywork on an E92 M3. Does that seem a bit excessive as it uses 200ml of AF?

The car wears 2 coats of professionally applied Liquid Elements Shield ceramic coating and this is the first wash after being applied almost 4 weeks ago. The car lives out outside so has endured the recent snow and then the subsequent muddy/salty roads. I don't think there was enough wetness to the solution to start pulling the dirt off so will probably try the foam lance next time.

Any thoughts or advice on this?

Results after just a PW off and then a auto-wash shampoo and a further rinse then a dry with the trusty leaf blower were pretty impressive with a good gloss level with no need for any wipe over with a QD.

Think I will get some ceramic based top-up as a post wash panel wipe next for the occasional use to maintain the ceramic protection. The Detailer recommend KKs SiCOAT.


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## \Rian (Aug 23, 2017)

Pump sprayers are hit and miss.

5l is a lot to use.

In winter my method is BH autofoam in a 7l pump sprayer for bottom half of car/arches and wheels (after a proper wash)

Then foam the whole car (this will help with BH autofoam not drying out) 

then Pressure wash of the foam and BH autofoam 

this gives great results and the auto foam has a longer dwell time to the lower half of the car


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## RichD1 (Jan 22, 2014)

So how much of the 7 litres do you use?

Do you foam with auto-foam or use a cheapy product?

Richard


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## Andy from Sandy (May 6, 2011)

Clearly there is differences in spray heads on pump sprayers.

I am using a hozelock one that holds 3 litres of liquid. I find this plenty to get the whole get very wet with auto foam.

I have not found it necessary to use two different foams on the car to get the job done, even in the summer.


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## great gonzo (Nov 4, 2010)

I use about 2 litre on a large car inc wheels with a pump sprayer if that’s any help. 
If it’s drying to Quick try one half at a time. 


Gonz.


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## RichD1 (Jan 22, 2014)

I'm using a Screwfix pump sprayer on a reasonable jet flow so perhaps was too aggressive but there again it was drying out before I got round the car once. I used a litre just on the wheels.

Richard


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## Andyblue (Jun 20, 2017)

I've a 7L Hozelock, which I tend to fill up to 5L and this lasts me a good few washes...


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## RichD1 (Jan 22, 2014)

So what am I doing wrong guys??

Are you using quite a fine spray? I used almost a jet.

Richard


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## Andyblue (Jun 20, 2017)

RichD1 said:


> So what am I doing wrong guys??
> 
> Are you using quite a fine spray? I used almost a jet.
> 
> Richard


I have it set to a spray, get some bubbles, but get a nice coverage - tend to apply to a height 1/2 way 2/3 up the doors, go round car and then sometimes go round again


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## ///M Sport (Apr 5, 2009)

I feel for you Richard because I can sympathise with your struggle with BHAF. 

There’s a review on here which sold the product to me, the reality is I have no idea how the review yielded the results it did, because my experience has been very different. 

I’ve tried foam lance, pump sprayer, increasing dilutions, dwell times, hell I even used it neat in the lance bottle on my last wash this weekend. 

This product will only ever (in my experience fan boys) get rid of a light top later of dirt, it is in no way from what I’ve experienced capable of producing the results in the review. 

I’m ditching BHAF it just doesn’t live up to the hype and clean enough for the time spent in using the product. I’ll be buying a citrus pre wash or KC green star as they will both have increased cleaning power - undecided which to go for.


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## Brian1612 (Apr 5, 2015)

///M Sport said:


> I feel for you Richard because I can sympathise with your struggle with BHAF.
> 
> There's a review on here which sold the product to me, the reality is I have no idea how the review yielded the results it did, because my experience has been very different.
> 
> ...


As the writer of that review I respectfully disagree. Not quite sure what you are doing wrong though? Maybe talk us through how you use it or possibly your expectations are too high? There are a lot of people who shared the same results as me in that review so again, it points to something you are doing wrong as opposed to the product?










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## ///M Sport (Apr 5, 2009)

Brian1612 said:


> As the writer of that review I respectfully disagree. Not quite sure what you are doing wrong though? Maybe talk us through how you use it or possibly your expectations are too high? There are a lot of people who shared the same results as me in that review so again, it points to something you are doing wrong as opposed to the product?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I don't think I'm doing anything wrong Brian, its easy enough to get the dilutions right. I've tried it through the pump sprayer at the suggested 4% (and higher) and also through the foam lance via measuring the water flow etc. I've even tried it neat through the foam lance!

The results (for me) were better through the foam lance than the pump sprayer at the 4%+ mix.

The expectations of the product I guess came from your review, I seem to recall the product being syringed and applied to the panel along with other products, then swabbed after. The swab showing very little dirt obviously sets an expectation, but of course how dirty your car is in the first instance is a massive variable.

While a lot of people may have shared the same results as you, I guess there could be people like myself and Rich etc who haven't yielded the results the review would have you believe..

Ultimately my expectation of this product is wrong but I do believe my expectation came from the review. It is not that BHAF does not clean, it just doesn't clean that well from what I have found (IMO).

We are all concerned with any pre wash effecting our LSP, but in all honestly, I want a pre wash that removes as much dirt as possible as its the dirt will cause swirls when the contact wash happens.

I would value a safer contact wash over degrading of LSP any day of the week and for that I need a pre wash that removes as much dirt as possible. TFR's obviously do this, but come with their own risks, so something like VP citrus pre wash ticks the box.


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## \Rian (Aug 23, 2017)

RichD1 said:


> So how much of the 7 litres do you use?
> 
> Do you foam with auto-foam or use a cheapy product?
> 
> Richard


About 2L

I use KKD blizard, so certainly not cheap, 5l is slightly more than 5l of AF but gives a great foam and cleans well


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## Brian1612 (Apr 5, 2015)

///M Sport said:


> I don't think I'm doing anything wrong Brian, its easy enough to get the dilutions right. I've tried it through the pump sprayer at the suggested 4% (and higher) and also through the foam lance via measuring the water flow etc. I've even tried it neat through the foam lance!
> 
> The results (for me) were better through the foam lance than the pump sprayer at the 4%+ mix.
> 
> ...


That was the black box test, not the swab. Was rinsed off and you could visibly see the difference compared to Surfex and another popular snow foam.

Swab test would have been done on the side skirt and during the colder months. Fairly certain the car was what most would call filthy. I don't really know what to say, I've used it on protected and unprotected cars and almost through 10L of the stuff... the results are always the same. Brilliant. I've also tried VP Citrus and as a pre-wash it doesn't perform as well as BH auto foam. So much so I now use VP Citrus specifically for interior fabrics only. 

Issues wise rich has no issues with cleaning power, simply that it's drying out which is the same risk you have with any pre-wash. Your issue stands entirely on it's own within this thread it seems and is very rare.

As for the OPs original problem. I apply it via pump sprayer and find 2 to 2.5lL is plenty to get around any sized car. I apply to a pre rinsed car though which possibly helps with preventing it drying out and I also apply any poor performance snow foam I have at hand over it to keep it wet. You can also simply apply it then stand a distance away from the car and mist a light layer of water over the car using the pressure washer.

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## ///M Sport (Apr 5, 2009)

Hi Brian,

I believe rich did have an issue with the cleaning power of AF, not sure if it got resolved through experimenting? - Rich

See here:
https://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=410580&page=5

I don't want it to come across like I'm knocking your review Brian, after all a lot of work goes into putting reviews together and without people like yourself this site wouldn't be the same.

BHAF is just not a product I've been able to get on with. I can only think that the LSP could be the only variable that I haven't considered. But my car is ceramic coated so that goes out the window...

Regarding your comments about VP citrus wash, I think I'm going to go with a TFR used correctly I'm sure it will be fine. I think I'll actually mix my TFR with my BHAF - I must have at least 4 litres to use up!

Hopefully by making a TFR foam, this will reduce the risks of TFR drying out and also give the product more work time to do its thing. I shall report the outcome!


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## olliewills (Feb 10, 2017)

Afternoon all.

For what it's worth, my experience of BHAF after going through about 20 litres of the stuff, mostly with a garden pump sprayer, is this:

On a car that is properly dirty with a really visible layer of crud, 2-3l of solution should be plenty for most cars including wheels. You won't have any problems with it drying out unless you're in direct sun or taking a really long time to spray and move.

On a car that is relatively clean, with just a light layer of dirt/dust, you may experience problems with it drying out and in these cases it can be safer to either pre-rinse the car or apply BHAF and then light mist from the hose over the top.

My only logical explanation of the above is that when there is more dirt on the car, the BHAF penetrates into the dirt which stops it evaporating into the air. On a car with little surface dirt, the amount of water in the solution isn't enough to force it to run steadily down the panel and so it sits on the paint, not absorbed into dirt and hence starts to evaporate.

Based on this, my current procedure on a relatively clean car is apply BHAF via pump sprayer(2l) and then immediately go back over the car with the same pump sprayer only filled with water. This i find gives enough additional lubrication to stop the BHAF from drying out, but not so much as it interferes with the PIR and hence the cleaning ability.


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## Brian1612 (Apr 5, 2015)

///M Sport said:


> Hi Brian,
> 
> I believe rich did have an issue with the cleaning power of AF, not sure if it got resolved through experimenting? - Rich
> 
> ...


Not a problem bud. Not having a go either as there are so many variables with these products. For me I'd love to get to the bottom as to why auto foam isn't performing as it should for you. LSP shouldn't be the issue given you have a ceramic coating... dilutions seem fine as well. Are you using warm water out of curiosity?

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## olliewills (Feb 10, 2017)

Or do you have particularly hard water where you live which for some reason might be deactivating the cleaning agents in the foam somehow? My household water is very soft, just 50-60ppm from the tap so I count myself lucky and get nice sudsy wash buckets etc. 

Maybe you could try filling your pressure sprayer with a mix of BHAF and DI water rather than tap water. A 5l bottle of DI from Hellfrauds is like £3.50 so not an expensive experiment i suppose.


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## RichD1 (Jan 22, 2014)

///M Sport said:


> Hi Brian,
> 
> I believe rich did have an issue with the cleaning power of AF, not sure if it got resolved through experimenting? - Rich


The problem I was experiencing was that the paintwork was extremely contaminated. I've since had it professionally corrected and a ceramic coating.

My problem is the usage and drying out not allowing any dwell time. But the car was only lightly dirty so the comments about there not being much surface muck to hold the solution allowing it to dry out might be relevant.

Things for me to experiment with next time will be:

1. Finer misting from the pump sprayer
2. Try AF in a snow foam lance
3. Pre-rinse bodywork
4. Apply snow foam over the pump sprayed AF

Richard


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## ///M Sport (Apr 5, 2009)

In a perfect world how long should you let BHAF dwell for?


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## olliewills (Feb 10, 2017)

5-8 minutes I usually find is sufficient for it to do its job and have dirt running down the panel.


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## Brian1612 (Apr 5, 2015)

5 minutes is usually plenty for me.

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## cheekymonkey (Mar 15, 2008)

///M Sport said:


> Hi Brian,
> 
> I believe rich did have an issue with the cleaning power of AF, not sure if it got resolved through experimenting? - Rich
> 
> ...


what ceramic are you using and how old is it. did you apply it or did a pro do it


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## ///M Sport (Apr 5, 2009)

cheekymonkey said:


> what ceramic are you using and how old is it. did you apply it or did a pro do it


Hi Cheeky,

The ceramic coating was applied by a professional and it was applied in October last year. The detailer said it will realistically last a year, not sure if this was a hint towards to the quality of the product he was using or he was just being realistic. I doubt the quality of the coating would be bad as he only ever seems to use good stuff, but I can't be 100% sure what was used.


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## ///M Sport (Apr 5, 2009)

olliewills said:


> Afternoon all.
> 
> For what it's worth, my experience of BHAF after going through about 20 litres of the stuff, mostly with a garden pump sprayer, is this:
> 
> ...


Hi Ollie,

I get your logic here, its a lot to have to go through to make the product work though, right? A no nonsense product this is not!

I think your trying to make the product work (as am I) through the sprayer and maybe that is where a potential problem could be. Dwell time is key for this product to work and if we are applying through a sprayer then drying out becomes a problem, if it dries out too quickly, its not dwelling for long enough and then the product is less effective.

If we use the product as designed (as a snow foam) maybe we wouldn't have this issue as the drying out wouldn't be an issue so the product would be dwelling for longer.

Spraying the car and then going around immediately afterwards with plain water (to stop it from drying out) seems to me like it will just be diluting the product and this of course could have a knock on effect to its effectiveness.

Maybe instead of spraying with plain water, you just go round again with the product after 2-3 mins. At least this way you get a chance of full dwell time and you're not diluting the product.

When I've used the product through the pump sprayer, I spray enough on to the point of the product just starting to run off. Is that right?


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## ///M Sport (Apr 5, 2009)

RichD1 said:


> The problem I was experiencing was that the paintwork was extremely contaminated. *I've since had it professionally corrected and a ceramic coating.*
> 
> *My problem is the usage and drying out not allowing any dwell time.* But the car was only lightly dirty so the comments about there not being much surface muck to hold the solution allowing it to dry out might be relevant.
> 
> ...


Having the car ceramic coated - Have you tried using BHAF since having the coating done, what are your thoughts? Has this made a difference to the effectiveness of the product now?

Drying out and dwell time - I assume you were applying through a pump sprayer too? maybe go around the car again with the product after 2-3 mins, hopefully this will prevent dry out and give sufficient dwell time for the product to work.

Finer misting from the pump sprayer - I would think this would lead to the product drying our even faster?

Trying in a lance - This is how the product is designed to be used, so it is worth a go. I had my best results via this method, but still not enough cleaning power for me. Snow foam - PW rinse - then let air dry. This should give you a good indication of how much dirt has actually been removed.

Apply snow foam over the pump sprayed AF - you might as well apply in snow foam lance in the first place.


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## ///M Sport (Apr 5, 2009)

If the cleaning power of any prewash is dependant on the LSP, then should we take seriously any review or test that has an LSP applied?

Wouldn't it be better to do tests/reviews on cars that haven't got an LSP applied, wouldn't this show the true cleaning ability of a prewash?


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## wish wash (Aug 25, 2011)

Could the problem be with the ceramic coating not letting it dwell on the paint. If it's running off quicker it has less time to break down the dirt. I love auto foam and it's my preferred choice, even over Koch chemie greenstar. I think there's too many variables to give a ********** answer on why your having a problem.


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## neilmcl (Mar 26, 2010)

Another successful clean with 4% BH AF with a good 2 months of crud, salt etc removed easily. Shame I forgot to take some pics as it would've been really apparent just how well this product can work, especially seen on a white car. 

The only thing I did differently this time was to pre-rinse the car first with the PW just to see how much dried on dirt would come off with water/pressure alone, not a lot I can tell you but once I sprayed on the AF and left it to dwell for no more than five minutes the grime just fell away, in fact you can see it working as soon as you spray it on.


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## RichD1 (Jan 22, 2014)

Did you use a pump sprayer or snow lance?

Richard


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## neilmcl (Mar 26, 2010)

RichD1 said:


> Did you use a pump sprayer or snow lance?
> 
> Richard


Pump sprayer always. I find I use too much product via the foam lance.


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## Pembroke_Boy (Aug 24, 2017)

neilmcl said:


> Pump sprayer always. I find I use too much product via the foam lance.


100% agree with this. BH 4% dilution. Pump sprayer. Hot water from the tap to mix it. Spray onto dry panels. Dwell for 5 minutes or so, jetwash off, and it's clean enough to tap dry with a drying towel to look "almost clean".

This is my routine in the winter most weekends, then maybe once a month give it a full "proper" wash.


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## Philb1965 (Jun 29, 2010)

Pembroke_Boy said:


> 100% agree with this. BH 4% dilution. Pump sprayer. Hot water from the tap to mix it. Spray onto dry panels. Dwell for 5 minutes or so, jetwash off, and it's clean enough to tap dry with a drying towel to look "almost clean".
> 
> This is my routine in the winter most weekends, then maybe once a month give it a full "proper" wash.


Exactly the same as me but mostly I don't bother drying as the water is really soft. Proper wash and BSD once a month.

Great product bhaf.


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## Brian1612 (Apr 5, 2015)

Same here today... car was still filthly after a pressure rinsing it. Autofoam at 4% applied, allowed to dwell 2 minutes then foamed over and alowed to dwell another 5.

The amount of additional dirt it removed over just pressurised water was impressive.


































































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## Andy from Sandy (May 6, 2011)

What sort of a result do you get if you don't apply the second snow foam over the top please?


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## neilmcl (Mar 26, 2010)

Andy from Sandy said:


> What sort of a result do you get if you don't apply the second snow foam over the top please?


I can't speak for Brian1612 but I've never felt the need for a second application of foam. When I cleaned mine on Friday it was covered with a couple of months of dried on dirt and road salt, so much that you could barely read the number plate at the rear and a single application of AF via the pump sprayer was enough to get it shifted prior to the main contact wash.


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## Andy from Sandy (May 6, 2011)

I only use auto foam as a pre wash as well. I also don't use a pressure washer and get pretty good results.


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## micksea (May 27, 2018)

im using BHAF through a pump sprayer at 5% and I find it dry"s out quickly,my solution is to go round the car quickly just roughly covering "most" of it then continue on round a second time making a more thourough job of covering all of it.This approach seems to keep the product wet but only for about 5 minutes dwell time,no way I could stretch it to 8-10 minutes.this is spraying onto a dry car though so pre rinsing is probably the way to go,ill try this next time I wash the car and come back to this thread.


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## neilmcl (Mar 26, 2010)

micksea said:


> im using BHAF through a pump sprayer at 5% and I find it dry"s out quickly,my solution is to go round the car quickly just roughly covering "most" of it then continue on round a second time making a more thourough job of covering all of it.This approach seems to keep the product wet but only for about 5 minutes dwell time *no way I could stretch it to 8-10 minutes*.this is spraying onto a dry car though so pre rinsing is probably the way to go,ill try this next time I wash the car and come back to this thread.


There's absolutely no need to leave it for this long, 5 mins max is more than enough and what BH themselves recommend.


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## Brian1612 (Apr 5, 2015)

Andy from Sandy said:


> What sort of a result do you get if you don't apply the second snow foam over the top please?


Same results as long as you prevent it from drying out. The only reason I use the foam over it is to prevent this, plus I have a lot of foams that are purely for this use as they lack cleaning power.

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## ///M Sport (Apr 5, 2009)

Tried the pump sprayer method again. 5 mins dwell time, didn’t let the product dry out as I kept going round the car with a fine mist after heavier soaking first time round. 

Car had BSD applied the weekend before. 

Results were “ok” maybe my expectation is too high! 

Giving up with the pump sprayer now. Have ordered a new snow foam gun, will give it another shot (excuse the pun) in that. 

Have also had delivered some power maxed TFR. Will be using this on the lower sections of the car and possibly snow foam with BHAF over the top. Or maybe a power maxed TFR BHAF combo in the foam gun.


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