# The Value of Opinion



## Dave KG (Feb 23, 2006)

I haven't been posting as much as I usually do on the forum through work and personal commitments (PhD thesis gobbles up time like nobody's business, especially when results are less than favourable!), but I have been signing back in recently to catch up on goings on and see what's happening in the world of DW and get ready to post up a few product reviews and info threads that I have been working on in the background.

On reading a few threads recently though, I have become rather worried by some of what seems to be going on with regards to whether or not an honest and open opinion can be posted, or at least what it seems on reading. I don't want this post to turn into a slanging match, but I do hope that some of the concerns here will be read and listened to with open minds as from the start if my time on Detailing World I have always been keen and interested to see the forum do well as a resource for the best and friendliest place for information in detailing!

For me, the point of an open discussion forum should be to be able to openly and honestly share your opinions on a product, regardless of what the product is and whether or not the opinion is favourable or unfavourable. Sometimes there comes an occasion where we use a product which either does not live up to our expectations, or worse, makes the finish on our vehicles worse for whatever reason. This _may_ be down to user error, or it may be down to the fact that one person does not get on with a certain product. On reading a few posts recently, I am worried that it is becoming harder for one to share an honest opinion if it is not favourable, especially for certain ranges of products over other ranges. This to me is a great shame, and it is certainly putting me off posting up reviews of products I am learning and trialling as if a review is to turn into a slagging match just because I don't like "produc X" as much as "product Y", what is the point of posting my thoughts? Opinions are just that - opinions, and in my case and hopefully that of many others, opinions are based on experience and honest feeling about a product which one should be allowed to share on open forum without fear of a thread turning against you and degenerating into joke of *****ing and wrangling. Over defensive posts about products defending them when one user finds they prefer something else seems to me to be becoming rather common, which is hardly contributing to the friendly atmosphere which DW had a reputation for and on which its popularity most definitely flourished!

I hope my thoughts here are understood and taken for how they are meant - a genuine concern that a lot of the friendly discussion is being lost to attacks and counter-attacks (which show absolutely no professionalism - when did you last see Pepsi enterring into a slanging match with a customer because they preferred Coca Cola?!!), and that people who have genuine and honest opinions to share are being put off of sharing them for fear that they will just be pounced on if the opinion does not meet the "approved". I hope that we can all continue to be able to post our honest thoughts without fear of a massive attack or argument from manufacturers and product-fans alike... an opinion is hugely valuable, and people's thoughts should be allowed to be openly shared. There are products I don't like, and many others here don't like, but just because others do like them does not mean that we jump on top of them and destroy their opinions!

Perhaps I am just reading a lot of things wrongly, my mind is very pre-occupied with PhD stuff and starting a new business, but if some of this rings true with anyone, I hope that people will see a genuine concern here - and hopefully, start to regain much of the friendly and open discussion about products and techniques without the underlying and also blatant attacking.

Its all in the technique anyways, folks :thumb:


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## Planet Man (Apr 12, 2008)

Dave KG said:


> Its all in the technique anyways, folks :thumb:


Great post Dave. The last words quoted sum it up for me. Even before I stepped up my game the finish I used to achieve with Turtle Wax paste wax after good preperation would be worthy of a studio post:thumb:

Yes, I still have piccies if anybody wants to see them


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## Avanti (Jan 17, 2006)

You are not wrong Dave, and have not read things incorrectly (or more so I am reading the same as you), it gets to the point in some threads where posters are nit picking for someone to use the same product they do (and it is not a knock at posters) . To me the more variance of users and product selection the better for all, some products are indeed over hyped and some are under rated and even dismissed simply down to the brand of the product. Sometimes it just diminishes what detailing is more about


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## Dipesh (Oct 12, 2007)

Amen to that Dave! 

Thanks for posting, your great with words :thumb:


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## MHTexPete (Feb 23, 2010)

I agree with what you have said Dave. I would defend anyone's right to express an honest opinion. As a trader I value feedback from users but I would urge a word of caution. Honest traders' livelihoods may be at risk from unfounded attacks- mud sticks so very easily. Constructive critiscism I believe is welcomed, comparative analysis between products/service is even better. Ideally any problem a member has with a supplier is initially best dealt with by private means. If no sensible resolution then post something.


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## Avanti (Jan 17, 2006)

MHTexPete said:


> I agree with what you have said Dave. I would defend anyone's right to express an honest opinion.* As a trader I value feedback from users but I would urge a word of caution. Honest traders' livelihoods may be at risk from unfounded attacks- mud sticks so very easily. Constructive critiscism I believe is welcomed, *comparative analysis between products/service is even better. Ideally any problem a member has with a supplier is initially best dealt with by private means. If no sensible resolution then post something.


This is true and you are not unique, a couple I can think of do not relish constructive feedback, and if their product does not meet the expectations then it must be the users fault


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## Reds (Jan 14, 2009)

Good post Dave. Free and open opinions, as long as they can be backed up with reasonable and balanced arguments, should be treated with respect. If the opinion is backed up along the lines of " It's crap because I say so" should be treated with the contempt that they deserve. Honest and open opinions, critiques and information are a huge benefit to the forums and have certainly helped with my learning curve. Well thought out arguements for and against products benefit the manufacturers, which in turn benefits those of us with our OCD for shiny cars. I know that some discussions regarding products on the forums have swung me towards buying that product.

Same thoughts for technique, if I see one that might work for me, I'll try it. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. I don't feel the necessity to have a pop at someone for my failings or inability to master something.

It's probably a long winded way of saying if you can't say anything nice (or something negative in a nice way), don't say anything.


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## markc (Mar 4, 2009)

Yep...well said Dave.:thumb:


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## Dave KG (Feb 23, 2006)

I'm glad that people agree with me here, and that open and honest opinions on products are what members of the forum really want to see rather than what could turn into "guarded posts" for fear of repercussions in the shape of the thread descending into anarchy, overly defensive and offensive replies rubbishing the opinion, or even worse.

Honest, friendly advice seemed to me to be what this forum was founded on and where its success came from... I for one hope we can see a return to this.


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## -Ally- (Mar 6, 2009)

Well Dave, having spoken to you personally last week I shalnt say much here, you know how I feel anyway lol. but I couldn't agree more with what you said then and in your post.
It's about time someone like you stood up for what is right. 
Too often recently I have been suppressed and also threatned into a way of thinking. By this I mean by PM by both a manufacturer and members of this forum who are here "to protect DW's best intrests. This attitude has admitedly resulted in some immature posts on my part- however, this should not detract from the fact that this issue is happening.

I thank you Dave for saying in such a nice pleasant way, what I'd love to be allowed to say. It sometimes takes posts such as yours to highlight what is actually going on. There is a dark scene to DW -IMO, caused so often by the over defensive nature of certain people. The PMs I have recieved recently are bordering on lunacy,which include PMs from "moderator"- who wants to remain nameless.

One example is, being threatned with LEGAL action for saying "X product has had a negative affect on product Y. Therfore I will never use prodcut X ever again. 

Ovcourse people will see the funny side of that,however, court action is no laughing matter.

To conclude: I think people on this forum should stop looking to deep into posts and trying to find negatives to persecute. Instead, they should realise that this is a forum for people to learn from others' experience. Relax and enjoy what DW has to offer. Everyone is different and that fact will never change.


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## Jordan (Dec 22, 2008)

AllyRS said:


> *text*


This.

i've seen allys posts being pulled before, and i know how some people feel about certain products.

this is a detailing forum, how else would we get reviews if out OPINIONS weren't expressed?


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## Ste T (Jul 17, 2008)

a wise man once told me " For F Sake its only wax" this thread backs that up 100%


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## Dave KG (Feb 23, 2006)

AllyRS said:


> One example is, being threatned with LEGAL action for saying "X product has had a negative affect on product Y. Therfore I will never use prodcut X ever again.
> 
> Ovcourse people will see the funny side of that,however, court action is no laughing matter.


 Legal action?

This type of threat really is no laughing matter at all and I am deeply saddened to read this, Ally. I don't want to know from who, as this kind of thing is not for open forum (and is certainly not for PM either, and at the end of the day, is just not cricket and certainly not in the spirit of what a discussion forum should be about!), but I do hope that this matter is resolved quickly - being threatened with legal action is very serious indeed, certainly enough to make me think twice about posting my opinions on products alas if I can be threatened like this


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## Dave KG (Feb 23, 2006)

20RSport said:


> a wise man once told me " For F Sake its only wax" this thread backs that up 100%


L200 Steve by chance? I miss his wise words, a true legend in detailing whose advice was _always_ spot on, unbiased and well put across.


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## Ste T (Jul 17, 2008)

Dave KG said:


> Legal action?
> 
> This type of threat really is no laughing matter at all and I am deeply saddened to read this, Ally. I don't want to know from who, as this kind of thing is not for open forum (and is certainly not for PM either, and at the end of the day, is just not cricket and certainly not in the spirit of what a discussion forum should be about!), but I do hope that this matter is resolved quickly - *being threatened with legal action is very serious indeed, certainly enough to make me think twice about posting my opinions on products alas if I can be threatened like this *


Dave i dont think its what you say its the way you go about saying it, and maybe just not in one post but at any opportunity that arises.

if you have a problem and someone gives you an answer its should be left there, and not X weeks later popping your 2p's worth again and again.


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## Ste T (Jul 17, 2008)

Dave KG said:


> L200 Steve by chance? I miss his wise words, a true legend in detailing whose advice was _always_ spot on, unbiased and well put across.


i have read Steve say it but before that it was Whizzer...changed my view on things...:thumb:

and your posts are always well thought through and well worded, even if i do need to take a break, and get a coffee to read it all.:thumb:


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## -Ally- (Mar 6, 2009)

Dave KG said:


> L200 Steve by chance? I miss his wise words, a true legend in detailing whose advice was _always_ spot on, unbiased and well put across.


Much like yours,Dave. 
And yes Dave - I did say legal action. It would indeed be inappropraite to share with you here the PMs I have recieved. What I have done though is printed them off over the last week or so. I shall show you


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## Dodo Factory (Apr 11, 2007)

Well, it looks like the freedom of speech includes the right to defame and slander good products by ill informed and malicious posters - right?

I think that says it all.

Whilst freedom of speech is good and should be encouraged and every manufacturer should accept good and bad feedback with grace and charm, there are occasions where individuals have gone beyond fair comment.

We ourselves have been subjected to unfair criticsm and taunted when we reacted to the criticsm on a forum.

Free speech works both ways. If a product is mis-used or misunderstood, it is also the right of the manufacturer to have their say.


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## Spoony (May 28, 2007)

Dodo Factory said:


> Well, it looks like the freedom of speech includes the right to defame and slander good products by ill informed and malicious posters - right?
> 
> I think that says it all.
> 
> ...


To be fair I agree with both, but on your point in bold, how many companies get flamed on here, whether it be insurance companies or orange or whatever is ranted about - and nothing is done about those. If a customer has tried with a product or had bad service then they have the right to vent, such is the nature of a public forum. Like it or lump it, your in retail - you know how it is.

Everyday I get customers moaning about this and that, saying they bought something here previously and it was bad or whatever. Unfortunately due to the internet being largely unregulated and DW being a peoples forum most manufacturers will succumb to "taunts" and "critisism" as you put it. It's about how you rise above that which is important. A wise man once said oppinions are like arseholes, everyones got one.

Although many manufacturers have their "fan boys" who'll stick up for them at any god given opportunity and suck up to them at any opportunity also.

This forum is here for informations sake, if one person has had a problem with a product they may be seeking for help and advice to work through it and get the right results, which is what DW is great at.


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## spitfire (Feb 10, 2007)

Have I missed something today,  or maybe I've just been reading the wrong posts. Fair enough if you've noticed something untoward Dave, you wouldn't post otherwise, but as someone who's more on here, than anywhere else, I have to say I haven't noticed any great changes. Other than your write-ups you haven't been on here as often as you once were, and maybe you've seen a change because of this. There is always debate about products and techniques and so far as I see it there's been little in the way of slagging or angry exchanges. In fact, to be truthful, the worst bad feeling between folk that I have seen, has eminated from threads in which you've posted on. Remember the "which detailer" post? Obviously I'm not saying it was your fault Dave but just an observation. DW has been changing rapidly as numbers increase, what is it 40,000 plus members now, and with that there are bound to be some disagreements. That's just life Dave, it can't be rosey in the garden all the time. There have been a few comments in agreement with your post so maybe it's just me but I feel that you're making more of an issue of this than there needs to be. Just my opinion Dave, please don't be cross. 99% of the time DW is the freindliest place on the web, a testement to the owners and the mods, long may it continue.:thumb:


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## glymauto (Feb 29, 2008)

Dave KG said:


> Legal action?
> *being threatened with legal action is very serious indeed*, certainly enough to make me think twice about posting my opinions on products alas if I can be threatened like this


Stating product X affects product Y is also very serious indeed.

We are not "free" to post defamatory, slanderous or unfounded accusations.

I hope the poster has read and understood the chemical composition of both products and can show clearly why X will have contra indications on Y. I hope the poster contacted the manufacturer and raised these concerns and clearly demonstrated by way of an experiment (that could be replicated) with his concerns that certain compounds in X will affect compounds in Y and stated his reasons why.

...Or maybe he just had a bad experience with a product and posted it on a forum dressed up as psudeo science?

I didnt see the post in question, so I have no idea which is correct.

I dont think we have to slate products. Our silence speaks volumes, especially yours Dave...I bet manufacturers are champing at the bit for a positive review from _DaveKG_.

A positive review from you is like a *Gold Seal*.

Autoglym, Autosmart, Dodo, Menz, Megs etc etc...have fantastic products and we applaud them for what we like.

The products they sell that dont quite 'cut the mustard' we leave to one side. Any member of DW should be able to work out pretty quickly which manufacturer is selling the best APC, LSP, Tyre dressing or whatever.

I think its unfair to slate a product just because another manufacturer sells something better, unless the manufacturer clearly stated it would be better than the 'other product'.

Just my thoughts,

Glym


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## Dave170 (Feb 12, 2006)

Well written post there Dave KG, I don't post as much as I should. But recently have been looking around the forum to find more and more of these threads where arguments have broke out because someone is giving an opinion on something and someone else has taken offence. I also think there is a fine line between what people see as a negative opinion and slating.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion good or bad at the end of day, If i don't like someones opinion I am not going to start arguing with them, I just don't post have as I have better things to do with my time than argue with people I don't know on a forum.

But as long as there are forums there will always be the Keyboard Warriors out there.


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## chillly (Jun 25, 2009)

Great post Dave:thumb: 

If a Product is as good as it says on the tin so to speak then a company Should not have to worry about there product. People/customers should and will continue to have there say i hope without people jumping down there throats! 

I have seen posts where people have said they cant get on or dont like a certain product for one reason or the other. Which i fully back there posts and do so on occasion my self. Thats how we learn and move forward in the world of DW. 

This also pushes or gives companies a good kick up the back side to give us better products and better value for money.

Two points i would like to really make are.

1, To all you guys who when a member posts a problem with a product for one reason or the other you help by asking the op have you applied to thick or not prepped right you are always there to lend a hand with your wealth of knowledge from being members of DW. (You Guys know who you are as your always there for everyone) So my hat goes off to you guys Brilliant:thumb:

2, To all companies Listen to us and try and understand its not personal its opinions of your products. So if we do not like your product for one reason or the other either try and help us try and use it the way its supose to work or try and improve it. As that is what we all want:thumb:

Again Great post Dave and you guys who are always there keep it up your great in my book. Cheers Chillly


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## glymauto (Feb 29, 2008)

Spoony said:


> To be fair I agree with both, but on your point in bold, how many companies get flamed on here, whether it be insurance companies or orange or whatever is ranted about - and nothing is done about those. If a customer has tried with a product or had bad service then they have the right to vent, such is the nature of a public forum. Like it or lump it, your in retail - you know how it is.
> 
> Everyday I get customers moaning about this and that, saying they bought something here previously and it was bad or whatever. Unfortunately due to the internet being largely unregulated and DW being a peoples forum most manufacturers will succumb to "taunts" and "critisism" as you put it. It's about how you rise above that which is important. A wise man once said oppinions are like arseholes, everyones got one.
> 
> ...


Well yes and no.

Flaming a company with pseudo science is slightly different to looking for advice. Wouldn't you agree?

I posted a review on the Renovo cleaner and sealer. Excellent products. I like them. I said as much in my little guide - http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=163566

I had a problem with the revitaliser. I posted asking for help. I got advice from the members of DW http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=165511

My "negative post" of this product was not moved/altered/edited or in any way censured by DW.

Maybe that's because I didn't flame the company? 
I asked for advice. I know guys on here have had excellent results with Renovo Revitaliser.

I also contacted Renovo directly. I am waiting for a reply.

I'm sure this situation will be cleared up quickly and I can then let people know what Renovo told me to cure the problem.

Asking for advice and making statements of fact aren't exactly the same thing....are they?


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## Alan W (May 11, 2006)

Well said Dave! :thumb:

DW has changed a lot over the last year and the core of long-time die hard enthusiasts have in the main disappeared. This is only natural over time as priorities change but the unintentional influence they brought to bear via the manner of their posts has been largely lost, unfortunately.

It is indeed a sad day but with posts like yours to shake things up and hopefully make people take notice we're on the right track to identifying issues before they take root and sorting them where possible.

Alan W


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## Spoony (May 28, 2007)

Also it must be said that Dave (and Caledonia) are actually my main inspiration behind my passion for detailing, as it was Dave that initially ignited the detailing flame with his great tuition and Gordon fuelled it with some great chats.

DW as always has a part to say.


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## Leemack (Mar 6, 2009)

All i have to say is this - and this comes from someone who has had sh1t after sh1t to deal with (And would rather not see rows and stupid arguments on my fave forum ) :-

This forum is diverse and has lots of completely different personalities (SP) and with the ever increasing amount of members joining there will be conflicting opinions.

However, i have been in the background, watching and seeing some of the totally pointless arguments that have occurred and lots of people (YOU know who you are) who come on here and talk utter crap and don't put there points across in a decent and proper manner.

Im going on a bit here but i was tought by my late father to respect to be respected. Just because this is a forum where we can't see each other, doesn't mean we don't build up impressions of each other.

Just post your opinions in a sensible manner and there will be no need for posts like this :thumb:


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## b3n76 (May 16, 2009)

Totally agree Dave.If someone hasnt quiet done,said or achieved in what most percieve as to be the correct way, rather than letting the OP know in a suggestive way they rather belittle them in a sarcastic way.Just my thoughts on a minority of post's.


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## -Kev- (Oct 30, 2007)

Showshine said:


> All i have to say is this - and this comes from someone who has had sh1t after sh1t to deal with (And would rather not see rows and stupid arguments on my fave forum ) :-
> 
> This forum is diverse and has lots of completely different personalities (SP) and with the ever increasing amount of members joining there will be conflicting opinions.
> 
> ...


agree with you there Lee, there's a big difference between giving an honest opinion on a product / products and slating it..


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## Leemack (Mar 6, 2009)

-Kev- said:


> agree with you there Lee, there's a big difference between giving an honest opinion on a product / products and slating it..


:thumb:


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## glymauto (Feb 29, 2008)

Guys,

I'm taking a broader view here. As I'm sure DW Admin has to.

Simon Singh made a pretty inocous comment in an article (it could have been an internet post from you or I) - http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/apr/19/controversiesinscience-health

It came to the High Court - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8621880.stm

Luckily (for The Indy and Dr Singh) it was dropped at the last minute. Dr Singh had had hundreds of thousands of supporters worldwide and it was a cause celeb.

The threat of legal action is very real. To DW and to us as individuals.

If you're making claims about a product, you'd better be 110% sure of what you're saying and be willing to demonstrate it in a court of law.

I am not a product fan. I dont work in (or for) any manufacturer or supplier.

I am aware of the laws that govern our land....and that includes our posts on the internet!!

I dont agree with it, but its the way it is.


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## Dodo Factory (Apr 11, 2007)

Some good points made 

As a manufacturer we often appear to have more of an agenda than we really do and this has perhaps made me more defensive than we needed to have been so I apologise.

It really is NOT a question of everyone 'marching to the same tune' and nor is it a case of trying to win every customer or poster over. I personally hate it when manufacturers recommend their own products so try not to do it (please search and prove me wrong  ). Maybe we take it more personally as we care about DW and about what we do - it's a way of life not just a job for five people in our case and we all have homes to pay mortgages on and mouths to feed. There's no 3M to bail us out. We make good products or we cease trading and go on the dole or get a 'proper job'. Some companies get no comment, good or bad, but then Ocar Wilde did say the only thing worse than being talked about was not being talked about. But to unjustly slate a product or misinform the forum does the forum a disservice as well as the manufacturer and product. Loose lips sink ships as they used to say, but in our case it is loose lips kill sales. Products live or die on forums and some deserve to live.

Anyway, I just want to say that as much as criticsm always hurts, we will always try and treat negative opinion positively. Red Mist now has new spray heads. The waxes have improved recipes. Lime Prime Lite has new labels printed this week to make it easier to use. The buckets are still sh1t but we do warn people about them 

So that's where we are.

What about DW?

Well perhaps the more dangerous trend I have noticed is a lot of needless negativity and arguments instead of help, and maybe that is really what Dave is getting at with his original posts.

I have witnessed less discussion and more pronouncement. And some of the higher profile 'experts' have been guilty of this. Maybe I have as well. What this has meant is more arguing and less working together.

There are no right or wrong answers or reports, just what you, yourself have found, on your car with your technique. When lots of people agree, that means there's a theory but it still hasn't been proved. The more people agree, the better the theory is. And when every last person agrees, it has been proved. Until that point, discussion (friendly and open in nature) should rule.

I have seen these forceful statements or pronouncements lead to heated arguments. They could also unfairly damage a company's reputation or unfairly put a poor product ahead of a good product. We have had to defend ourselves in the past from people blaming our product with no regard for their own technique or vehicle - with reasoned discussion we can see what really went on. And hey, once in a while (or more often) the customer(s) - note plural as the theory gets stronger - are right and our product will be as bad as they claim, and you can test us on how we deal with making the product better and sorting out the mess through customer care.

As well as the evils of the ********** statement, I have seen people making posts just to lead to arguments or get themselves noticed. If there's a wave of opinion for Product X then someone will have to hate it to be different, for no real reason other than popularity. Maybe attention-seeking is within human nature, but often the comments aren't helpful or accurate. Just as liking a product you haven't used, without making that clear. 'I have heard Product X is good' is better than 'Product X is the best ever'.

So all it takes is people being a bit more helpful, reasonable, less opinionated and less attention seeking. With 40k members I live in hope, but live in hope I do :lol:


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## -Ally- (Mar 6, 2009)

Well, having spoke with Dom of DodoJuice on the phone for 1hr 15 and 23 seconds (to be precise). I can conclude that there will be no legal action with regards to this matter. Me n Dom have really made up, I think my view of him and Dodo juice has changed forever. He is a decent guy,really decent.

I will be making a post either in the DJ section or off topic to explain myself and my actions recently- so as not to detract from the OP.

Back on topic- what should not be forgotten is the freedom to speak freely here, as I have said previously. I felt most suppressed by the attitude of the moderators recently, pushed into a corner if you like by a gang of people, all with the same agenda. I have been childish recently, but so have a few of the moderators and unfortunately I am not permitted to post an explanation. 

That is all I have to say here and I seriously hope this post will not be moderated to hide what I belive is happening on DW

Ally


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## Brazo (Oct 27, 2005)

Well wow what can I say...

DW has 10 thousand more members than it did last week  

On a more serious note it would be nice if Dave was referring to the general negativity and yes by their own admission immature posts of a select group of members that have sought to create trouble. I 'hope' this has now been nipped in the bud by DW admin and that any future posts will be constructive.

I am happy to go on record and say that constructivly criticised posts in the opinion of a member will only be removed if they are deemed to be libelious. Lets just remember that the other 30k members have no problems with expressing opinions in a sensible and mature way. And that must say something 


I have to say I am also starting to become concerned about certain Manufacturers who are coming down heavy on people and DW as that isn't fair either. I certaintly wouldn't want the forum to have to go the way it did when a previous manufacturer was unhappy with some of the postings. A happy balance must exist and can exist:thumb:


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## Avanti (Jan 17, 2006)

Brazo said:


> snip
> 
> *I have to say I am also starting to become concerned about certain Manufacturers who are coming down heavy on people and DW as that isn't fair either.* I certaintly wouldn't want the forum to have to go the way it did when a previous manufacturer was unhappy with some of the postings. A happy balance must exist and can exist:thumb:


I must confess I noticed this in the past but really only from 2, who rarely post now :buffer:


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## Dodo Factory (Apr 11, 2007)

I should also add that talk of legal action was purely theoretical and solely involved the issue of defamatory posts... no one likes giving lawyers any money.

And I have been 'spoken to' before by the mods so manufacturers know their place as well and don't pull any strings or get any favours behind the scenes, whatever beer money they provide or whatever consipracy theorists may think.

Sadly :lol:


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## Reflectology (Jul 29, 2009)

Not quite read through the whole of this but what I have seen throughout most of it is that, X product affects Y product so I wont use it again. At the end of the day its a product and we try them, mix them and rate them, it is for others to either take our advice or choose to test the products themselves, after all how can someone blame one product for not agreeing with another, different ingredients and formulas etc... put it this way I dont think anyone on here would apply a sealant over a wax and then slag a manufacturer or product because of their own testing or inexperience.

Lets just accept that we are responsible for our own actions and cant hold anyone else responsible for what we say or do, sure I have been a little off the cuff sometimes about certain products, hey I like Farecla, many dont but I wont stop using it, I prefer it to 3m but it doesn't mean i wont buy 3m, I like and have other products that I no longer get on with but others on here do, you either like it or you dont, by all means pass comments but not judgement, after all a comment on a product on here is your opinion of it....doesnt mean you have to condemn it....

Ok, if some people feel strongly about airing their views about products and think others should no their strengths and weaknesses, by all means list those strengths and weaknesses as your unprofessional and unbiased opinion but leave it at that...


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## glymauto (Feb 29, 2008)

-Ally- said:


> Well, having spoke with Dom of DodoJuice on the phone for 1hr 15 and 23 seconds (to be precise). I can conclude that there will be no legal action with regards to this matter. Me n Dom have really made up, I think my view of him and Dodo juice has changed forever. He is a decent guy,really decent.
> 
> I will be making a post either in the DJ section or off topic to explain myself and my actions recently- so as not to detract from the OP.
> 
> ...


Ally, I'm sorry to break it to you mate, there is no such thing as "free" speech.

I am a Moderator on a financial site. It has been sued (and won!)

I am painfully aware that posters comments reflect on the site. The site will be sued as well as you. The site was "at fault" for allowing your comments to be viewed and not removing them in a timely manner.

The job of a Mod is _NOT_ easy. They give their time freely and for the benefit of the site.

A Mod needs to lie somewhere between a lawyer, High Court judge, a friend of the site, a normal poster and an authoritarian dictator...who removes posts (or sections of posts) with no reason or explanation.

DW is a _MASSIVE_ site...it has achieved 2,000,000 posts. That is flippin' amazing in the forum world.

Mods don't have time to think on this site. They must use their best judgement and react.....sometimes they'll make a mistake. They're human 

I would be very surprised if a Mod removed any of your comments from this thread.

Mods are our friends. They look out for the site and remove Spam and Porn and all sort of rubbish. This goes unnoticed. We only see our individual post 'edited' and we scream foul.

...I bet a few Mods have been watching this thread develop and have been discussing what to do!

They have let the discussion run. That tells me all I need to know about DW Mods.


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## Guest (Apr 27, 2010)

great post dave :thumb:


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## Dave KG (Feb 23, 2006)

Ahhhh  (sigh of relief) 

It feels like the air is a bit clearer again :thumb: I'm glad that folk have been open and honest in this thread as some of what was clearly "going on" was really giving more posts than there needed to be a bad reputation and as mentioned, it only needs a few to cause a much greater effect.

Back to the open and honest reviews now - I have a couple to post (Sonax Gloss Shampoo and DAS-6 Pro), but they will have to wait: proof reading the better half's dissertation on the development of logic in the 19th century is tonight's priority


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## Shiny (Apr 23, 2007)

My thoughts have pretty much been reflected already, but i would like to add an opinion on the attitude of posts.

A good example was a recent post asking if anyone had trouble with AG HD wax. Constructive replies came in giving advice on application and it was a well discussed topic with a good outcome.

Now if someone had posted "HD is ****, don't waste your money, buy some Colly instead it is far better", it would be a different thing entirely. This basically reflects all that has been said in the above posts, it's a bold statement saying the product is not only **** but something is better, rather than a reasoned opinion. This leaves the forum and the poster open to potential legal threats and rightly so should be removed.

All it takes is a little thought before hitting the keyboard and i'm sure sensible discussions and opinions will be spared from the delete button.


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## -Ally- (Mar 6, 2009)

glymauto said:


> Ally, I'm sorry to break it to you mate, there is no such thing as "free" speech.
> 
> I am a Moderator on a financial site. It has been sued (and won!)
> 
> ...


Well...
Firstly there is nothing you have said I disagree with.

However, I feel it is very easy for you to take the friendly stance and show exactly all the good things etc
What I will say is, DWs inner circle may not be as tight as they think, I have been told of the posts and discussion regarding myself within the moderators section. And some of the comments made are personal against me. Also I have been treated disrespectfully through PM from "moderator".

I hope you can understand what I am saying, it's too easy to play the good samaritan. Not everything is rosey here, but unfortunately I cannot explain more. I am here on DW for fun, I am not a stupid person and certainly will not allow myself to be bullied, hence this post- whilst trying to remain subdued for fear of further infraction.

Ally


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## Guest (Apr 27, 2010)

I do agree with you dave :thumb:


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## Spoony (May 28, 2007)

Dave KG said:


> Ahhhh  (sigh of relief)
> 
> It feels like the air is a bit clearer again :thumb: I'm glad that folk have been open and honest in this thread as some of what was clearly "going on" was really giving more posts than there needed to be a bad reputation and as mentioned, it only needs a few to cause a much greater effect.
> 
> Back to the open and honest reviews now - I have a couple to post (Sonax Gloss Shampoo and DAS-6 Pro), but they will have to wait: proof reading the *better half's dissertation *on the development of logic in the 19th century is tonight's priority


Hows Gordon getting on with that? Many spelling mistake?

(someone had to?)


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## -Ally- (Mar 6, 2009)

Lmao spoony


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## spitfire (Feb 10, 2007)

Brazo said:


> Well wow what can I say...
> 
> DW has 10 thousand more members than it did last week
> 
> ...


Alright, alright! I was 10,000 out. Obviously Whizzer hasn't been putting the newbies through as quickly as I thought he had. lol Still 30,000 members adds up to a heck of a lot of posts (2,000,000 Brazo?) to escape without some fall outs.

Well at least Dave, Ally and Dodo are happy now. Just need to sort out the rest of us now.

Can we get back to :buffer: :detailer:now.:thumb:


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## glymauto (Feb 29, 2008)

Ally,

I'm just a poster on DW. I have no axe to grind or vested interest. I look for more advice than I give.

I've met a lot of guys personally (both pro's and hobbyists) from DW.

The site where I am a respected Mod - I have *NEVER *met a single person. I *DO NOT* give out my mobile number. I have *NOT* given my mobile number to other Mods. I use a dormant account to recieve notifications (PM complaints)

The DW Mods are human. You'll annoy them and you'll grind their gears. They'll tell you as much in PM's

As a Mod, I am pretty impressed with their modding style. I have actually 'linked' this site to our* Private Forum *to see what lessons we can learn from DW

The Mods dont 'hate you'...they could very easily block your IP forever.

Forget about hidden IP's....they can trace/link to known users and block them too.

See, the Mods could ban you from this site in an instant if they chose to. They dont.

They want discussion. They want our opinion. They want our input. They respect you as a poster.

They may be really annoyed sometimes...but they're human. Give them some slack


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## -Ally- (Mar 6, 2009)

Did you actually read what I posted?

Christ, if you did you must have missed the point. I had a lot of respect for the moderating team here but they are far from transparent in their approach. I would never say something about someone by signing into an account that hides my true name. Ovcourse they could have banned me, do you think I am hugely niave or just brainless ? Yes they do a good job, but you don't know the half of it. 

Ally


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## glymauto (Feb 29, 2008)

Sorry Ally, I must have missed your point.

I did read (carefully) what you posted and thought I answered truthfully and honestly.

I am aware Mods and Admin have far reaching powers and if they truly didn't want you on this site they could very easily block you.

I'm not saying you are stupid. That never entered my mind.

I don't know the history. I don't really want to know the history.

As for the Mods Private Forum discussions - well, they're private 

Mods needs to discuss all sorts of things. They need a place to discuss them and vent their frustration/anger. They may say things in there about me too.....!!!

Whats gets said in there is private. Its not for public consumption. It does not reflect on any us.


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## alexf (May 23, 2009)

I feel I should say this because I can, this 'legal action' cropping up is worrying, but certainly not for the individual who may have posted the defamatory comment, rather for the DW website itself. When chasing a court case for saying a product is bad, trying to find the details of the original poster is nigh on impossible, and it is the organisation (in this case DW obviously) which will be the representative. Therefore I think any company on here that is willing to use the threat of legal action on here is surely shooting themselves in the foot, because after all it would not mean damages would be recovered from the individual, they would be recovered through a site which probably gives them a great amount of business, potentially causing that site to close down for fear or costs mounting. This is almost as ludicrous as a company having to prove that damage has been done in the first place. 

Just thought I needed to put this in perspective a bit. 

Anyway good post, this is a great forum and it is good that we can all speak up.


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## Avanti (Jan 17, 2006)

alexf said:


> I feel* I should say this because I can, this 'legal action' cropping up is worrying, but certainly not for the individual who may have posted the defamatory comment*,
> Just thought I needed to put this in perspective a bit.
> 
> Anyway good post, this is a great forum and it is good that we can all speak up.


Sometimes infact most of the time, it is not the mfrs/sellers that are making these bold claims, some people are next to bullied into buying a product, it is after the purchase is made and product tried that some feel 'cheated' and decieved. As regular users get to learn which posters give true opinions as opposed to following mass +1s


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## Mirror Finish Details (Aug 21, 2008)

Cheers Dave food for thought here.

So if I say in my opinion Opti Seal is the best paint sealant product I won't be slagged off anymore. Plus in my opinion it is!!!!!!!!!Just cos it's cheap and not beginning with Z.

And Collies 845 Insulator Wax is the wettest wax out there.

I'll get my coat!!!!


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## R6 Smithy (Aug 19, 2009)

Thanks Dave. Fair play for sitting down and having the time to post that up:thumb: Taken me a while to get through the whole thread lol.

What i will say is that i love searching this forum for advice and product reviews as it helps me determine wether or not i will give the product a try. 

People's OPINION really does matter. I'd much rather read a post on a product where people have used it and shared their experience on it etc, rather than a long drawn out post where a product is slated and have someone argue that the product is/isn't the best on the market for whatever reason. 

I dont post often as i dont feel i can offer much advice compared to the majority on here, but when people ask for a thought on a product i've used i will give my opinion. 

Lets get back to feeling the love of DW :argie:


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## VZSS250 (Jan 8, 2008)

I must say, I've seen a similar actions to those described in this thread on Australian forums, and the players are the same. Manufacturer X or their supplier in Australia will keep track of posts and act to defend as soon as an unfavourable comment is made. 

The pattern is always the same. Supplier of X's product sponsors a car forum. Supplier declares BIG US Manufacturer's products to be of poor quality. Supplier creates the impression that X manufacturer's products are the only boutique product on the market. Criticism is immediately acted on by the supplier, and in some bizarre cases, the manufacturer themselves, sitting at a desk several thousands of kilometres away.


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## chris king (Apr 26, 2010)

This seems to happen alot on car forums as well, a hell of a lot. I wont mention particular forums, but when someone mentions a modification that the so called 'experts' (usually people who just surf the net all night and have no real experience of the product) dont agree with, you'll get so much abuse. As you say, just because they dont like the product, but you really like it, and it gives the desired affect, why shouldnt you use it? I got abuse for fitting 106 Rallye steels to my 106 xsi, and got the usual 'its not a Rallye though'. The wheels suited the car perfectly, was in no way chavvy, and was exactly what i wanted. I know its slightly off topic, but in the same context. 

End of the day, if the product works for you, and you get enjoyment from it, why shouldnt you keep using it!


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## PJS (Aug 18, 2007)

-Ally- said:


> Did you actually read what I posted?
> 
> Christ, if you did you must have missed the point. I had a lot of respect for the moderating team here but they are far from transparent in their approach. I would never say something about someone by signing into an account that hides my true name. Ovcourse they could have banned me, do you think I am hugely niave or just brainless ? Yes they do a good job, but you don't know the half of it.
> 
> Ally


And calm.....!
Ally, the account you refer to is a floating one for any moderator to use, a bit like the Sheriff one, but it's predominantly for those mods with limited site access in their regular account.
Those who need to reach farther into the site on occasion, can only do so by using this account.

I would be fairly confident in saying whomever used it to do whatever to your posts, has no qualms about saying it was them, but unfortunately the account has been set up by Admin to be anonymous, so you're none the wiser as to whom was behind it at the time.

I don't think there's anything subversive being employed in this respect by Admin, it was probably just quick and easy to do for them rather than specify which areas those limited mods can access as part of their normal account, individually.

If you honestly think you've been "spoken" to in an unbefitting manner, PM me with the messages or Admin directly.
If me, I'll look at them and raise your concern in the mod area to see if one member has been overexuberant, and there's anything we can/need to address as a result of it.

Contrary to your belief, none of the DW team are "out to get you".


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## Naranto (Apr 5, 2007)

Moderators = a no win situation - for what its worth I think you have a good balance.

Back to the OP - Thumbs up from me.

As no more than an enthusiastic amateur, I do feel sometimes that unless I am using 'The Emperors New Clothes' , some responses can be a little unwarranted.

Takes a deep breadth - _'I like Turtlewax Platinum products'_ - there I said it. Now runs for the door leaving coat behind.


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## big ben (Aug 25, 2009)

wow, just read all that... agree with the OP but i havent been here long enough to judge!

what i will say is that it seems to be the more experienced detailers and forum users that actually end up in these situations for some reason... newbies tend to be searching for advice rather than slagging off products.

I think people reading this thread know who they are as well, so lets make sure threads like this dont happen anymore as its not needed


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## chrisc (Jun 15, 2008)

all this talk about leagal action would this be true mods as i am not 100percent on that.1 company i used to work for i had to sign paperwork they had to sign paperwork any 1 parties slagging one off in court we go.also with being in the manufacture of certain stuff when i was younger (recipe how there made etc not to be told )that can get you in court but is the opinion side correct and to what level.but yes i think some posts do get sour and its not the normal dw members its supporters i have argued with.with there posts what where offensive and it seems that the supporters manufactures sometimes seem to get away with comments what the normal dw poster would not.some good points raised in this opost and it would make imo dw better if some where acted upon.and if said if the opinion on products is all super brill and then when you get its not super brill this will lead to heated posts so a unbiased veiw in my eyes is good of anything.the pros and cons gives both sides


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## chillly (Jun 25, 2009)

-ALLY- Dont let anyone grind you down mate:thumb: I always enjoy your posts:thumb: Slap a couple of layers on your pride & joy open a few tins and enjoy:thumb: Cheers Chillly


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## Planet Man (Apr 12, 2008)

chillly said:


> Slap a couple of layers on your pride & joy open a few tins and enjoy:thumb:


Works for me mate:thumb: Tis the detailing equivalent to retail therapy

Good advice and should be made compulsory before anyone wants to post up something nasty

Like most things, after a cooling off period the views can be very different


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## mitchcook (Oct 6, 2009)

Planet Man said:


> Great post Dave. The last words quoted sum it up for me. Even before I stepped up my game the finish I used to achieve with Turtle Wax paste wax after good preperation would be worthy of a studio post:thumb:
> 
> Yes, I still have piccies if anybody wants to see them


Please upload these and tell me about them. Turtle wax is king! hahaha.

Dave you are spot on here. It's times that we all become defenders of the happy spirit of DW. It's time to put an end to the bad moods!!!!!


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## tony2 (Jan 31, 2010)

I find Most of the posts In this thread comical TBH and the only reason I think this thread has been allowed to proceed anywhere near the length it has Is the fact that DaveKG started it (cue the its not what he's said its the way he said it) I totally agree this is a good forum well policed and protected but there is a definite agenda and some of the PM's Iv received from Mods have been so comical I cant believe these people are behind building such a successful site. These private discussion board people are talking about should exist but posting things like 'He's a [email protected], Lets Just ban him' on them prove how spineless and Jumped up SOME moderators are!!

There Iv said my piece last time I said it i got a 6 point Infraction with the reason being 'Commercial/Advertising Post' lol. 

See you Lot next summer by the looks of things.


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## Brazo (Oct 27, 2005)

tony2 said:


> I find Most of the posts In this thread comical TBH and the only reason I think this thread has been allowed to proceed anywhere near the length it has Is the fact that DaveKG started it (cue the its not what he's said its the way he said it) I totally agree this is a good forum well policed and protected but there is a definite agenda and some of the PM's Iv received from Mods have been so comical I cant believe these people are behind building such a successful site. These private discussion board people are talking about should exist but *posting things like 'He's a [email protected], Lets Just ban him' on them prove how spineless and Jumped up SOME moderators are!!*
> There Iv said my piece last time I said it i got a 6 point Infraction with the reason being 'Commercial/Advertising Post' lol.
> 
> See you Lot next summer by the looks of things.


I am going to call you out on this Tony

If you have any evidence to support such wild and false claims from the admin discussion boards by all means post them up, otherwise I suggest you withdraw your comments. You have been previously warned about your behaviour on DW and tbh we are simply not prepared to give up any more of our time on you.


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## tony2 (Jan 31, 2010)

Providing Evidence would put others that I Value and Myself In a situation that I wouldnt see as worth the Gain. So Il not be doing anything Brazo :thumb:

Il leave the rest with you.


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## Brazo (Oct 27, 2005)

tony2 said:


> Providing Evidence would put others that I Value and Myself In a situation that I wouldnt see as worth the Gain. So Il not be doing anything Brazo :thumb:
> 
> Il leave the rest with you.


With respect Tony there hasn't been a leak from the mods room in 5 years, what makes a new member with a handful of posts so special?

Your above post has told us all we needed tbh.


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## Shiny (Apr 23, 2007)

I'm sure this has been said before, but when you are in someone else's house you leave your shoes at the door and don't bounce on the settee.


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## catch the pigeo (May 17, 2008)

Shiny said:


> I'm sure this has been said before, but when you are in someone else's house you leave your shoes at the door and don't bounce on the settee.


Exactly what i was trying to work out how to say politely but could not


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## Shiny (Apr 23, 2007)

Thank Strongbow, poetry for the soul


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## tony2 (Jan 31, 2010)

catch the pigeo said:


> Exactly what i was trying to work out how to say politely but could not


So this is the Moderators House yes???

Without members what would they Moderate..

Without members who would pay to advertise on here..

Without members would this site exist.....

Il answer for you..........No


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## Shiny (Apr 23, 2007)

Moderators are the house masters, the advertisers pay the rent 

The members are the guests who enjoy the good company and friendly chat round the coffee table


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## Blazebro (May 18, 2007)

Shiny said:


> Moderators are the house masters, the advertisers pay the rent


More like the madame in a brothel.

(that's a joke btw, just incase anyone thought that I was looking around for.....I'll stop there).


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## Hair Bear (Nov 4, 2007)

Shiny said:


> I'm sure this has been said before, but when you are in someone else's house you leave your shoes at the door and don't bounce on the settee.


Have you never been in someone else's house and had a difference of opinion? A right to disagree? To challenge? To question?


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## -Ally- (Mar 6, 2009)

Hair Bear said:


> Have you never been in someone else's house and had a difference of opinion? A right to disagree? To challenge? To question?


This.


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## Guest (Apr 29, 2010)

I feel like contributing...this thread is a good read. 

As you read through the posts you see the diverse nature of the personalities who are registered with the site; but maybe we don't really appreciate it. I mean, we can see that members of the site have been offended, whether it be from moderators or other members - I also have been. However I have also started a thread which I reflected on and thought was offensive so I asked for it to be removed, at the same time a member pointed out that maybe I should remove it, and indeed I had already asked the moderator to do so....

I think Dave's post is warranted, as is Spitfire's, and I think this underlines my point. Because we interpret information in different ways, we also share it in different ways. And I think this highlights my point even more. When something bad happens to a celebrity and we here about it in the media within a day of it happening there are jokes flying around. Personally I find this kind of behaviour extremely offensive, and if someone begins to tell me such a joke then I stop the person and tell them that I don't care to hear it. They, and you, will make your own opinion of me in that regard. You might think I'm 'jumped-up', I could say people who make such jokes do not have high moral values, but that's not true. And indeed some people use humour as a way of dealing with grief.

Anyway I guess what I want to say is we expect everyone to be like we are except with different opinions, but that's not the case. We all learn in different ways, and respond differently to situations. I don't even think it's a case of - well everyone knows what respect is so just respect each other becuase we will have varying views on that. I 'try' to live by 'I treat others how I want to be treated' but to be honest you may want to be treated differently to me. In the mean time I'll do my best not to offend you, but if I do, you can tell me so.


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## Leemack (Mar 6, 2009)

Oh dear

Some people decided they would talk utter crap on this thread then.

What's this crap about mods rooms and protecting friends. Someone is stirring and it makes me lol that some folk are accusing mods of this and that when it's just ****e.


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## Cullers (Sep 29, 2009)

Have to agree with Showshine ^^^
My first contact with a Mod on this site was when I complained in a thread about a trader not responding to emails so he helped. Next contact was a couple of fall outs about (at that time) unwritten rules. I had an argument and was peeved about it. However, at no point did the Mod in question act unfairly and, if truth be told, I knew I was pushing it a bit. At no point was I victimised and since then I have gained a ton of respect for the guy in question and the amount of work he puts in on this site.

In my view, this site is the best auto forum on the internet bar none. Mostly that is down to the membership but like a human body, the skeleton holds it together and that is the mods.


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## Neil_S (Oct 26, 2005)

For me this thread says alot. We have some sensible arguments and also some remarks clearly designed to try and get a response or to wind others up and some unsubstantiated claims. I dare say some of these comments could have led the thread to be removed on some forums, but I think we are quite a broad church and try and avoid that result if we can.

I believe in good honest debate, we are not communists and want to encourage sensible, reasoned arguments, but we need to take steps to protect the site sometimes when arguments are not sensible, or contain unsubstantiated claims that could result in legal action.

As a percentage of all the posts on this site, we close or delete an incredibly small number of posts.

We can make that number even less if people would stop and think about what they post sometimes, I know emotions run high sometimes but as Whizzer says, it's only wax.


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## Guest (Apr 29, 2010)

Showshine,

Out of curiosity do you get business from this site?


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## chrisc (Jun 15, 2008)

Shiny said:


> Moderators are the house masters, the advertisers pay the rent
> 
> The members are the guests who enjoy the good company and friendly chat round the coffee table


the members are the core otherwise the (advertisers) would not want to pay the rent:thumb:


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## tony2 (Jan 31, 2010)

chrisc said:


> the members are the core otherwise the (advertisers) would not want to pay the rent:thumb:


As previously said!!!!

And Iv noticed that a lot of people defending this subject (not all) are people that make money out of it (supporters and such) these are the people that the mods are defending mainly, What a surprise they think what Im saying to be false..


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## chrisc (Jun 15, 2008)

tony2 said:


> As previously said!!!!
> 
> And Iv noticed that a lot of people defending this subject (not all) are people that make money out of it (supporters and such) these are the people that the mods are defending mainly, What a surprise they think what Im saying to be false..


they will look after there investment(payers) though tony anybody would.but i will say ive been on here a couple of years now and noticed lately that its not like it used to be.and i think the threat of legal action towards members is imo (appauling).it would be like going to the pub and saying i dont like fosters and getting sued by the brewery.its a opinion not everybody likes the same thing.and for that reason i would never buy there products again


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## tony2 (Jan 31, 2010)

chrisc said:


> they will look after there investment(payers) though tony anybody would.but i will say ive been on here a couple of years now and noticed lately that its not like it used to be.and i think the threat of legal action towards members is imo (appauling).it would be like going to the pub and saying i dont like fosters and getting sued by the brewery.its a opinion not everybody likes the same thing.and for that reason i would never buy there products again


I totally agree and I run two successful businesses and would do the same but its the way they put it across like thats not what there doing then In private its different story thats my issue...

Im coming off like the bad guy here so Il just take whatever is given out and move on, Iv got more to worry about in my life than this sh1t..


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## spitfire (Feb 10, 2007)

What is this thread achieving?

Dave posts a, no doubt heart felt, plea for ettiquet and an end to arguements.
Some, in fact many, contribute with their own slant and axes to grind.

The mods end up having to defend themselves.

And the threads going nowhere.

Time for closure methinks


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## caledonia (Sep 13, 2008)

Where I can agree with you Dougie, it has went slightly OT.
I as think it is helping both side and discussing, members thoughts and how the site has to be run by the admin.

I hope and pray it does not head in the direction you say. Where members and admin have to defend themselves. But that both parties can benefit from these discussions.

I personally feel it would go a long way to help both sides.

Up to know I have not posted in this thread. But watched it and read every post. I do hope that DW can return to the way it was in the past. The archive section will show how this site started and was run in the early day and I do hope it can return to this. Where every member and staff aided and helped fellow members with advice and knowledge.
Gordon.


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## Deano (Jul 7, 2006)

i'm sure it will soon Gordon, just one or two things that are creating an atmosphere in here of late, but we're still a great community IMO. How many times has the "what wax" question been asked for example and how many times has it been answered by new and old heads alike. other forums would just say "do a search noob" or similar. I recently joined another auto forum (non detailing related) with over 140k members, and nearly all "hello I'm new" threads went unanswered, whereas on here a newbie is welcomed swiftly and warmly. We (the DW team) have had our eyes opened recently to all this legal action stuff and its quite complicated and we really cant take any chances at the mo until we are certain where we stand on it all. as i've mentioned on previous posts, we really are having to be cautious at the mo in regards to what we can let stand on DW when something is posted aggresivley to a manufacturer.

I really feel this is a storm in a tea cup and once the weathers a bit nicer, and one or two things are ironed out, the spirits will lift and we can get out and do what all 30 thousand of us love doing.


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## caledonia (Sep 13, 2008)

I can agree Deano.
But surely a simple disclaimer in the rules can also aid Dw and the forum. Taking liability away from yourselves also.
After all why should a forum be held liable for something a member post. I know the world is going this way. But I also hope it will not hinder and damage the rep Dw has a s a forum. Sometime information can wrongly be posted, by anyone. But as a forum this should be corrected if possible. By liability should also not fall on the admin, unless there to blame. :lol: Joking of coarse.

A few carefully worded additions to the rules should help, as for liability


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## WHIZZER (Oct 25, 2005)

I had a big long post written out for this thread but TBH Im not going to bother to post it. 

Yes DW has changed - Its over 5 years old - it only had a few members in the first few years now it has 30,000+. Things evolve and move forward as has DW. We try and keep things moving forward thats the nature of something thats grows - Example we now try and bring at least one or two competitions just for members every month with some great prizes and a very easy entry requirement.

A few members of late have caused a fair few issues on DW and it seems that if one kicks off a small group decide to pitch in and add fuel to the fire - Having a a more laid back approach than some on DW - I try and defend all parties on DW but I have really lost the will with this now and Im getting fed up with it !!!!!!!!

And as regards Legal matters if only those that shout out about it perhaps could take the time to look into the matter they might understand more - It opened my eyes and made me think more about what i post on other forums .......

As for the mods - they IMO do a great job for a thankless task which is "damned if you do and damned if you dont" They cant please everybody 100% of the time but they do what they feel is necessary and for a handful of chaps for a site this big do a great job.

Oh and why we are on the case it may be a good opportunity to suggest members re read all the rules

http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=78737

..........................................Edited


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## Leemack (Mar 6, 2009)

Dakine

Yes i have received business from DW in the past but ATM i run two large contracts so None of my income is generated by the DW supporter package although it opens doors and is more than worth the money. 
However, this is not my reason to disagree with some of the things said. I know for a fact that certain things don't get discussed in a mods room as some people have said and someone on this site is just causing trouble.

It just gets my goat that so many people on here argue with the moderators and treat the site like a school playground.

It just makes me lol TBH because at the end of the day, this is a detailing forum and all of a sudden this particular thread has turned into a mini *****ing session. I merely look after one section of this site and thats hard work wnough considering i work 13 hours per day but it's a bit of a hobby i suppose and love contributing back into the site.

After all, it was DW that changed my career. I learned so much from DW that i took the jump and left my job and started up on my own and fingers crossed i'm doing very well from it.

This site is on the up and the odd troublemaker will come and go without a thought and the site will continue to grow so i aint really that bothered by one or 2 people with nout better to do than stir. Evolution gets rid of these people

rant over


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## Brazo (Oct 27, 2005)

The legal text has been there a while mate, unfortunatly thats the way forums are going with reference to legal stuff



caledonia said:


> Where I can agree with you Dougie, it has went slightly OT.
> I as think it is helping both side and discussing, members thoughts and how the site has to be run by the admin.
> 
> I hope and pray it does not head in the direction you say. Where members and admin have to defend themselves. But that both parties can benefit from these discussions.
> ...


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## viperfire (Apr 10, 2007)

Just thought I'd add my two cents..

I have been a member here three years and even though i don't post a lot i read a helluva lot and i come here at least once a day every day.

I've always found this place to be well moderated and people are allowed to give their opinion good or bad without fear of retribution. 

I've spoken freely about the so called 'ability' of certain products, delivery times (good or bad), postage charges etc and always hope this is constructive criticism even the though the way i go about it may not always be the best.

However, what i do not agree with is coming on here and mentioning a certain product has damaged ones car. This in my opinion should be taken up personally with the manufacturer to stop any of this legal wrangle. Most manufacturers if you contact them and state what has happened with be happy to help you in any way they can. Most don't like their dirty laundry aired in public though and will do anything for this not to be the case.

Hopefully, if the manufacturers do their with a good customer service nothing ever needs to be mentioned on here........it works both ways guys :thumb:


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## chillly (Jun 25, 2009)

There IMO is nothing wrong with any of the posts on this thread! it clears the air about all sorts of issues:thumb: 

We have to have open debates to get the products we want and deserve as loyal customers:thumb:

As for DW i think its growing and getting better:thumb:


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## Top_Gun (Dec 7, 2009)

glymauto said:


> Ally,
> 
> The Mods dont 'hate you'...they could very easily block your IP forever.
> 
> Forget about hidden IP's....they can trace/link to known users and block them too.


Do you use static IPs on broadband? 

My DSL-connection terminates after 24hrs, and the IP will be rendered over to a pool of numbers to be assigned for the next customer. Even though my router reconnects immediately, the IP will be gone and I'll get a new one out of this pool. A normal ISP has less numbers than he has customers, and therefore he needs to assign the numbers dynamically.

Best regards,

Detlev


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## Guest (Apr 30, 2010)

viperfire said:


> Just thought I'd add my two cents..
> 
> I have been a member here three years and even though i don't post a lot i read a helluva lot and i come here at least once a day every day.
> 
> ...


I understand where you are coming from, but if we can say this product made my car look great, why can't I say it damaged my car? If we are here to learn and inform others I would hope that people post messages to help me understand products better, and maybe how not to use them. Maybe it's about how it is said rather than what is said...

It annoys me when a member has an issue and has attempted to address it with the supplier but the supplier fails to respond due their sub-standard customer service; so they post in the companies section 'please get back to me' and then certain members jump all over them for doing it. If suppliers don't want that to happen they should improve their customer service. It seems to me some suppliers on this site get quite a lot of business from members here. We all have issues with companies/products from time to time. Just because someone on here doesn't like G3 or tesco mf applicators doesn't mean I'll stop using them.


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## Will-S (Jun 5, 2007)

Deano said:


> i'm sure it will soon Gordon, just one or two things that are creating an atmosphere in here of late, but we're still a great community IMO.*How many times has the "what wax" question been asked for example and how many times has it been answered by new and old heads alike. other forums would just say "do a search noob" or similar. I recently joined another auto forum (non detailing related) with over 140k members, and nearly all "hello I'm new" threads went unanswered, whereas on here a newbie is welcomed swiftly and warmly.* We (the DW team) have had our eyes opened recently to all this legal action stuff and its quite complicated and we really cant take any chances at the mo until we are certain where we stand on it all. as i've mentioned on previous posts, we really are having to be cautious at the mo in regards to what we can let stand on DW when something is posted aggresivley to a manufacturer.
> 
> I really feel this is a storm in a tea cup and once the weathers a bit nicer, and one or two things are ironed out, the spirits will lift and we can get out and do what all 30 thousand of us love doing.


Agree completely with this. This is a great forum and any disagreements I have had with other members have been received warmly by me.

So what if someone has a different opinion from the OP or manufacturer. So long as they can back it up with personal experience then should it not be taken as a point of personal opinion?

When I decide to buy a new television I research the model on the internet. More often than not you read posts that say "the sound quality is tinny" or "the level of black detail is grainy". Manufacturers do not threaten legal action, invariably someone else comes along and says "have you used the correct technique to set up the tv" You read the posts and form your own opinion. If you decide to buy the product and don't like it then you have a right to express your dissatisfaction.

Is this not the case with detailing. Many people buy a product then post up a review saying it is not living up to their expectation. This may be down to user error, inflated expectation, or the fact that the product truly does not live up to the users expectation.

Is this not the point of an open forum? People have the right to their opinion, others may not agree, that is life.


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## -Stu- (Mar 1, 2009)

"Is this not the point of an open forum? People have the right to their opinion, others may not agree, that is life."

Wholeheartedly agree mate.:thumb:


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## Leemack (Mar 6, 2009)

I think some of you miss the point.

Yes it is an open forum, this is why it has so many members at the end of the day.

Supplier A positive - "I love this product and it makes my car shine like it did when i got it from the showroom"

Supplier A negative - "This product doesn't impress me like i thought it would because it does not shine like i thought it would"





Now, response B is a critical one but does it sound like this?

"WTF is wrong with you people on DW? Why the F**k do you rave about (Enter product name here) its crap.




The difference is that when you critique a certain product/manufacturer you should at least give all of DW the benefit of saying why YOU thought it didn't perform and not just "slag" it off.

There is a difference - Critical reviews are more than welcome IMO as the supplier can receive this feedback and input it into their system and work towards ironing out any flaws in their product. Simply being a twonk and not reviewing it in the right way, causes these probs 


IMO anyway


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## glymauto (Feb 29, 2008)

Top_Gun said:


> Do you use static IPs on broadband?
> 
> My DSL-connection terminates after 24hrs, and the IP will be rendered over to a pool of numbers to be assigned for the next customer. Even though my router reconnects immediately, the IP will be gone and I'll get a new one out of this pool. A normal ISP has less numbers than he has customers, and therefore he needs to assign the numbers dynamically.
> 
> ...


If you happen on our site, and you start using proxy's or socks....

The Mods/Admin will know.

I cant even begin to tell you how it works. I'm just a Mod. But work it does.

I can tell you we had lots of fun when it was launched and we could see members arguing with other members who were posting off the same computer......bizzare!

but very funny to watch :lol


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## Top_Gun (Dec 7, 2009)

glymauto said:


> If you happen on our site, and you start using proxy's or socks....
> 
> The Mods/Admin will know.
> 
> ...


Agreed on proxies, but how would you track someone's identity over different IP-numbers? I don't think there are that many users who keep their IP when DSL disconnects and reconnects. At least in Germany, it's not a part of normal consumer DSL-packages.

Best regards,

Detlev


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## glymauto (Feb 29, 2008)

Top_Gun said:


> Agreed on proxies, but how would you track someone's identity over different IP-numbers? I don't think there are that many users who keep their IP when DSL disconnects and reconnects. At least in Germany, it's not a part of normal consumer DSL-packages.
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Detlev


Not my field of expertise I'm afraid.

The discussion on how the software works was posted in our private forum so I'm not at liberty to discuss the contents.

One user was found to be using 89 different accounts!!

This is going _seriously_ Off Topic. I apologise.


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## chillly (Jun 25, 2009)

^^^^ I think thats a very good post mate.:thumb: Dont be sorry made me Grin. It might open a big can of worms thou:thumb:


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