# Driving standards currently?



## wayne451 (Aug 15, 2016)

I didn’t want to put Coronavirus in the title as I feel it’s been done to death. 

The Old Queen had said that there were reports about people driving like knobs. I’d not experienced it as I think I’ve been out in the car 4 times in the last 3 and a half weeks? 

Anyway, I went to Tesco early this afternoon. People saying about panic buying must be referring to fat people? I got 3 full sides of Salmon reduced to £2.40 each. I’ve also posted many times that I got salad/veg reduced even when panic buying was off the scale! 

Anyway, I’m coming up the Alderley Edge bypass and see a green spot in my rear view mirror. A few seconds later, it’s massive. It’s a Lamborghini, not sure on model as it passed me at a dangerous point, with an M5 stuck up its ****. Both were doing in excess of 140 IMO? 

Come back home, 2 ****** think it’s ‘Tokyo Drift’ coming out of our estate. Both BMW’s. 

TBH, if I had something worth driving hard, I’d be doing the same but not in the situation I saw any of them in. 75% hit rate on BMW drivers...

So, what’ve you seen? How are you now? How would you be if you had something ‘fun’?


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## muzzer (Feb 13, 2011)

I've said for years that the vast majority of car drivers on the roads in the uk could not drive a greasy stick up a dog's bum.

Having learnt road craft on a motorbike, i still believe two things:
1) if you want a car, you have to pass your test on a bike first and ride for 4 years before you can have a car licence. If nothing else it will teach you self preservation and an acute awareness of everything around you

2) if you do want to ride a motorbike, there is a tiered licence system in place. Why not for cars? As it stands if an 18 yr old kid wins it big on the lottery, there is nothing stopping him buying a Bugagati Chiron yet he will have zero ability to control the car if it gets away from him. A tiered system will prevent that which should bring premiums down and hopefully prevent so many youngsters from having horrific accidents.


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## wayne451 (Aug 15, 2016)

Muzzer, why should I ride a bike first? Crazy logic. Some of the worst ‘driving’ I see on the roads is from bike riders. 

I was 17 and had a Nova GTE and Renault 5 Turbo. I used to pick which car I took in to college. If I could turn back the clock, that’d be the time I’d go back to. I was nuts deep in guts. :lol:


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## -Kev- (Oct 30, 2007)

Yep, had it on my drive home from work today, some little **** in a corsa thought it would be great to cut in front of me coming off a roundabout no doubt out driving for no reason at all. I just turned up linkin park and left them to it lol


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## Naddy37 (Oct 27, 2005)

It’s one of the reasons why I decided to temporarily fit my dash cam, currently plugged in via the 12v socket, as opposed to being hard wired in. That’s a project for myself and my uncle once all this nonsense is over.

Anyway, I’m out driving several times a week doing community car work. The roads are quiet, we shall probably never see them so quiet, but with this comes the ****womble driving standards from the unwashed!

So, be prepared for some dash-cam footage being posted


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## wayne451 (Aug 15, 2016)

Naddy37 said:


> So, be prepared for some dash-cam footage being posted


That was the thing I failed to mention. I couldn't go to a set of lights 15 years ago without a 'burn up'.

I think dash-cams are largely responsible for that. Then you have PCP etc. Nobody modifies anymore! 😡


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## c87reed (Dec 9, 2015)

We need much harsher penalties for these gobs***es who think that it's alright to treat the roads like a racetrack. There are reports of quite a few doing it around here too whilst the roads are quiet. Quiet the roads may well be, but they are not empty. Still a fair few innocent road users who don't deserve to be caught up in the wreckage when it all goes wrong.


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## Nidge76 (Sep 16, 2016)

I went into VTEC today and hit 8500 rpm. But I was heading to the vets. Am I bad? 

Seriously though generally I've only driven my car round town to pick up prescriptions and deliver food to family and done a couple of emergency stops in 30 zones due to idiots overtaking in stupid places.

Definitely seen some bad driving around.

Sent from my moto e(6) plus using Tapatalk


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## muzzer (Feb 13, 2011)

wayne451 said:


> Muzzer, why should I ride a bike first? Crazy logic. Some of the worst 'driving' I see on the roads is from bike riders.
> 
> I was 17 and had a Nova GTE and Renault 5 Turbo. I used to pick which car I took in to college. If I could turn back the clock, that'd be the time I'd go back to. I was nuts deep in guts. :lol:


Ah but i didn't say they were immune from bad driving did i?:lol:
In fact i tend to agree with you for the most part but i stand by my suggestion, if people _had_ to experience the roads on a bike at first, they might think twice about how they drive in future.


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## GeeWhizRS (Nov 1, 2019)

Muzzer's point over drivers needing to ride a bike before getting into a car has merit, although I think it's unfortunately not workable. From my perspective, I passed my car test at 17 and then took my bike test a on a one week pass course a couple of years later for no other reason than to pre-empt the new tiered system that was proposed; in readiness for a later purchase that I intended. This would have been circa 1993. I got a CBR600 as my first bike a few years later at around 21 (1996) and a couple of things became apparent. It totally makes sense to implement a tiered system cause in no way should I have been allowed to go straight onto that machine. The second, is that you become more aware of road conditions, whether that is rain, standing water, oil on wet roads, wind, white lines, adverse camber, horse doings etc... much of which won't immediately affect you in a car, but in a pinch will turn a close situation into a terminal mistake in either a car or on a bike. I would be all for that sort of training being made available and recommended so you could feel your backside twitch a time or two, but feasibly it's not possible. I stopped riding a bike when my daughter was born 16 years ago. The increased risk was no longer worth it to me.


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

In a 30mph zone the other day a Golf(shock) flew past me at 100 mph+ and still on the throttle. 

The other day there was a guy pushing his girlfriend to drive fast on highland roads. She got up to about 145-150mph in her Clio. 

He shared it on social media...........they have both been changed. Idiots. 


There is more space to drive fast, but it's noticeable that people are doing it. Not me obviously.


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## JordanE (Jun 26, 2013)

I’m currently delivering pizza for dominoes so always out in the car. 
Since the lockdown every man and women acting on the road I have seen think they are at a track day. 
Speeding, no indicators, changing lanes not looking. 
One bloke pulled a U turn in middle of road with me behind him!! 

A guy on a 125cc bike today nearly lost his life, after trying to overtake me and not looking to see what’s coming. He had to mount the curb on the other side of the road to avoid a head on. 
As if police don’t have enough to worry about 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## muzzer (Feb 13, 2011)

I'm exactly the same GW, i scared myself good and proper on a fireblade a few years ago and i mean _properly_ scared myself stupid. I'd love a Harley but i will never pull the trigger so to speak.

As for driving, i walk to work daily and only drive at the weekends and some of the antics i see make you wonder. Because we have a caravan, i spend most of my time driving at or below 55 -60 mph and like Kev said above, just let the idiots get on with it.

I still think a tiered licence for car drivers would be a good idea


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## TRN Ent (Nov 16, 2008)

I partly agree with muzzer.

Since I started driving trucks and riding bikes, I've got a better appreciation for road users, using all round observation and planning ahead.
Admittedly, there are times when I might be a bit lax.

On a bike, you're keeping yourself alive, it's easy to get killed/kill yourself.
In a car, you're pretty much safe, but you can easily kill a biker.
In a truck, you can easily kill many people.

I think drivers need to be taught this in order to drive more sensibly.

Tom.


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## petemattw (Nov 3, 2008)

I’ve literally just come in from doing a run on the blood bike and I was thinking this as I was out. So many idiots out and yet so little traffic. Bearing in mind I’m on a marked bike which looms like a police bike, except if you can read it says blood all over it, not police! Had a car pass me in the opposite direction on a single 60mph carriageway, he must have been doing double that. Had a car pushing me to go faster, I was already over the speed limit (onl6 just but that’s immaterial) but wouldn’t pass me?

Best ones are the cars that just pull out of junctions and roundabouts as they are looking even less than usual, then see me, panic and hit the brakes. Can always tell the moment someone spots me on a marked bike, brakes go on! Almost every time, without fail...

Oh well, the bike goes back tomorrow and I can potter home in my bmw and stick rigidly to driving inline with roadcraft


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## TonyHill (Jul 28, 2015)

Kerr said:


> In a 30mph zone the other day a Golf(shock) flew past me at 100 mph+ and still on the throttle.
> 
> The other day there was a guy pushing his girlfriend to drive fast on highland roads. She got up to about 145-150mph in her Clio.
> 
> ...


150mph......in a CLIO?!??


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## c87reed (Dec 9, 2015)

^^^^ my thoughts exactly :doublesho a Clio!


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1075560556144983


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## GeeWhizRS (Nov 1, 2019)

To a certain extent the insurance system has kept the _majority_ of the youths out of fast cars. My thinking now is though that with the introduction of electric cars with very fast 0-60 times, there will be lots of issues with not being able to limit access to these vehicles. I can only envisage limiters being put on these cars for different ages.


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## petemattw (Nov 3, 2008)

GeeWhizRS said:


> To a certain extent the insurance system has kept the _majority_ of the youths out of fast cars. My thinking now is though that with the introduction of electric cars with very fast 0-60 times, there will be lots of issues with not being able to limit access to these vehicles. I can only envisage limiters being put on these cars for different ages.


Im sure I've read an article which says new cars being built will now all have Gps speed limiting enabled so that cars can not break the limit - big brother is coming!


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## AndyN01 (Feb 16, 2016)

petemattw said:


> Im sure I've read an article which says new cars being built will now all have Gps speed limiting enabled so that cars can not break the limit - big brother is coming!


The speed limit and the "appropriate" speed are two completely different things.

I've posted before that I've been 2 up, fully loaded on our BMW bike at over 130mph in Germany and I was NOT the fastest thing on the 2 lane dual carriageway. So what's an "appropriate" speed on a deserted, dry, unlimited visibility 4 lane motorway? IMHO it isn't necessarily the "speed limit" BUT I'll happily take you along some local "national speed limit" roads where if you're much over 20mph you'll be doing the next part of your journey in an ambulance.

And what about say, sharp bends or tight slip roads on "normal" roads?

So GPS "knowing" the limit may not be the be all and end all that the folks who make the decisions think they will be.

I can see a similar scenario as the muppets who think ABS can bypass the laws of physics when it comes to stopping distances. Well the GPS said it was 60 innit, whatever.....

Andy.


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## BrummyPete (Jun 10, 2010)

Driving to work through Brum seems to be the usual twatish driving although they are taking bigger risks, driving through red lights, overtaking wrong side of islands, I'm sure i could start a YouTube channel with the amount of footage my dashcam collects


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## Naddy37 (Oct 27, 2005)

petemattw said:


> Oh well, the bike goes back tomorrow and I can potter home in my bmw and stick rigidly to driving inline with roadcraft


Ahhh, Roadcraft, a copy of which lives permanently in the 'comfy chauffeur e-class'


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## wayne451 (Aug 15, 2016)

Kerr said:


> __ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1075560556144983


That needs subtitles.


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## GleemSpray (Jan 26, 2014)

Naddy37 said:


> Ahhh, Roadcraft, a copy of which lives permanently in the 'comfy chauffeur e-class'


Roadcraft can be a bit tech and unfathomable I find, unless you read it end-to-end.

"Driving - the essential skills" is much better as a day-to-day reference you can dip into (even tho some of the DVSA stuff is a bit hoplessly out of date).

One thing i realised when i trained as a driving instructor (learning my own bad habits & lack of knowledge !!) and then went on to teach learners / driving improvement / advanced driving is that we can't really drive well + think about driving in detail at the same time, so "good" driving is a mix of learned muscle memory skills + easily remembered facts / rules / acronyms which pop into your head as needed.

I found the most practical thing was to distill info into bite-sized facts, lists and acronyms - learned a lot of stuff which isn't in the books from other driving instructors and driving examiners.


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## Cookies (Dec 10, 2008)

GleemSpray said:


> One thing i realised......... is that we can't really drive well + think about driving in detail at the same time.........


^^^ this.

Police class 1 drivers are simply incredible, purely for that reason. Being able to drive to an excellent standard, at high speed, assess road/traffic/hazards and provide a running commentary of that assessment is quite something to see.

Cooks

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk


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## Naddy37 (Oct 27, 2005)

Cookies said:


> ^^^ this.
> 
> Police class 1 drivers are simply incredible, purely for that reason. Being able to drive to an excellent standard, at high speed, assess road/traffic/hazards and provide a running commentary of that assessment is quite something to see.
> 
> ...


The instructor that taught me my IAM went on a blue light run with a traffic car. The officer told him rather bluntly, 'we're shortly going to be hitting in excess of 100mph, don't talk to me as I need full concentration'


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## The happy goat (Jun 26, 2019)

What we need is a test to get you driving with class room time showing real crashes and the aftermath of what happens (blood, guts and gore the lot) then your driving with a black box for three years and only allowed to travel with one other person in the car to cut down on the showing off.

130 MPH in Clio!! I hate to think what would have happened if they came off the road or hit another car that should have been a five year ban!


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## GleemSpray (Jan 26, 2014)

Naddy37 said:


> The instructor that taught me my IAM went on a blue light run with a traffic car. The officer told him rather bluntly, 'we're shortly going to be hitting in excess of 100mph, don't talk to me as I need full concentration'


 Haha - i cant do commentary at anything above about 20mph ... end up shouting "crossroads . . bicycle ... sports car mad speed ... granny...etc,etc" :lol::lol:


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## PugIain (Jun 28, 2006)

Unfortunately no matter what the situation is, I drive a dickhead magnet.


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## The happy goat (Jun 26, 2019)

I’m a sales rep and I see a lot of **** monkeys on a daily basis!


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## Radish293 (Mar 16, 2012)

Cookies said:


> ^^^ this.
> 
> Police class 1 drivers are simply incredible, purely for that reason. Being able to drive to an excellent standard, at high speed, assess road/traffic/hazards and provide a running commentary of that assessment is quite something to see.
> 
> ...


It has a lot to do with the amount of time spent training. Which is incredibly intense. Car courses are tough but after your stint driving you get two stints in the back. Bike courses are tougher a stint leading and being assessed then one trying to keep up with the two mad fools in front. I miss my car and bike courses they really were fantastic.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## MPS101 (May 6, 2011)

Radish293 said:


> It has a lot to do with the amount of time spent training. Which is incredibly intense. Car courses are tough but after your stint driving you get two stints in the back. Bike courses are tougher a stint leading and being assessed then one trying to keep up with the two mad fools in front. I miss my car and bike courses they really were fantastic.
> 
> I agree the car course and it's refreshers are amazing courses and actually teach you how to drive and deal with so much information at the same time.
> 
> ...


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## AndyN01 (Feb 16, 2016)

Cookies said:


> ^^^ this.
> 
> Police class 1 drivers are simply incredible, purely for that reason. Being able to drive to an excellent standard, at high speed, assess road/traffic/hazards and provide a running commentary of that assessment is quite something to see.
> 
> ...


Imagine what it's like if your Bike Club's Chief Training Officer is a Police Examiner and before them a National Crime Squad instructor. And, as a tutor, you get extra "support" and get to go out with them (when they're "off duty") :thumb::doublesho

The Police riders/drivers are truly awesome and have my absolute respect.

Andy


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## muzzer (Feb 13, 2011)

MPS101 said:


> Radish293 said:
> 
> 
> > It has a lot to do with the amount of time spent training. Which is incredibly intense. Car courses are tough but after your stint driving you get two stints in the back. Bike courses are tougher a stint leading and being assessed then one trying to keep up with the two mad fools in front. I miss my car and bike courses they really were fantastic.
> ...


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## Darlofan (Nov 24, 2010)

muzzer said:


> MPS101 said:
> 
> 
> > I always describe myself as cautious especially now i tow a caravan. Am i an excellent driver? Not even close and i doubt i ever have been, cautious works for me and has done for some time, professional drivers with a high standard of training are something else.
> ...


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## muzzer (Feb 13, 2011)

Darlofan said:


> muzzer said:
> 
> 
> > Have to say as someone doing a considerable amount of driving for work I'm so much calmer and more aware now since getting the caravan. Totally changes you, biggest difference I find is the approaching junctions, towing means I have to slow down a lot sooner.
> ...


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## James_R (Jun 28, 2007)

muzzer said:


> I've said for years that the vast majority of car drivers on the roads in the uk could not drive a greasy stick up a dog's bum.
> 
> Having learnt road craft on a motorbike, i still believe two things:
> 1) if you want a car, you have to pass your test on a bike first and ride for 4 years before you can have a car licence. If nothing else it will teach you self preservation and an acute awareness of everything around you
> ...


My lad has spent the last year or so riding a bike (before thinking about getting a car)
Up until recently he's spent some time with me learning to drive the CRV.
He's been great and picked it up like nobodies business.
And I think thats down to getting some road craft, common sense and self preservation from being on the bike.

I got him in with a driving school and after his first proper lesson the instructor says he's just about test ready and that dad teaching him has saved us a small fortune.

He said he would expect to have given someone between 12-15 lessons if he'd been teaching them from scratch.

Sold the bike a few weeks to get a car and now we're in lockdown.
Pleased the bike has gone though.


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## Gas head (May 28, 2010)

James_R said:


> My lad has spent the last year or so riding a bike (before thinking about getting a car)
> Up until recently he's spent some time with me learning to drive the CRV.
> He's been great and picked it up like nobodies business.
> And I think thats down to getting some road craft, common sense and self preservation from being on the bike.
> ...


Totally agree with bike riding giving roadcraft and also reading road conditions better than pure car drivers, should be a pre requisite for getting a car licence.


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## muzzer (Feb 13, 2011)

James_R said:


> My lad has spent the last year or so riding a bike (before thinking about getting a car)
> Up until recently he's spent some time with me learning to drive the CRV.
> He's been great and picked it up like nobodies business.
> And I think thats down to getting some road craft, common sense and self preservation from being on the bike.
> ...


Good to hear he's doing so well with driving, just need to get him claning his car properly when he gets it :thumb:


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## stealthwolf (Sep 24, 2008)

These same people who are driving aggressively can’t be driving like this all the time or there would have either been an accident or an arrest. If you had even dummy police cars parked around it might make people drive a bit more sensibly.


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## muzzer (Feb 13, 2011)

stealthwolf said:


> These same people who are driving aggressively can't be driving like this all the time or there would have either been an accident or an arrest. If you had even dummy police cars parked around it might make people drive a bit more sensibly.


I don't think it would, there is an offset mini roundabout at the end of our road, i reckon 98% of people go the wrong side of it to avoid having to turn the steering wheel twice. Seen them do it in front of coppers before all this started and they just arent interested.


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## Mikesphotaes (Jul 24, 2016)

I can remember when Roadcraft recommended half a pint of beer after lunch!


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## James_R (Jun 28, 2007)

muzzer said:


> Good to hear he's doing so well with driving, just need to get him claning his car properly when he gets it :thumb:


Cheers muzzer

Helped me with cleaning the CRV last time, will be cleaning the Clio next week, he does seem more interested with the prospect of getting his own car soon.

He says I don't think I'll be able to look after it like you do yours dad.
When he gets something - he will :thumb: :detailer:


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## GleemSpray (Jan 26, 2014)

muzzer said:


> I don't think it would, there is an offset mini roundabout at the end of our road, i reckon 98% of people go the wrong side of it to avoid having to turn the steering wheel twice. Seen them do it in front of coppers before all this started and they just arent interested.


If its a painted, rather than a raised physical roundabout, then you can legally drive straight over or around it wrong side, if its safe to do so - I was told that by a senior driving examiner some years back. They purposefully put just painted roundabouts in locations where they want the traffic to be faster / safer than a crossroads and its too narrow to put a raised roundabout.

When it's a dangerous location, they put in a raised physical mini-roundabout and widen the junction.

He could have been winding me up, of course, but he sounded serious and credible.

Sent from my P027 using Tapatalk


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## Bulkhead (Oct 17, 2007)

muzzer said:


> I've said for years that the vast majority of car drivers on the roads in the uk could not drive a greasy stick up a dog's bum.
> 
> Having learnt road craft on a motorbike, i still believe two things:
> 1) if you want a car, you have to pass your test on a bike first and ride for 4 years before you can have a car licence. If nothing else it will teach you self preservation and an acute awareness of everything around you
> ...


I've often thought this. It really does make you aware of the dangers on the road. We have a layered system over here - two years of P plates once you've passed the test and limits to cars you can drive, speed and passengers you can carry. I think it's a good idea as you can't pass your test one day and drive a 200 mph car the next.


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## muzzer (Feb 13, 2011)

GleemSpray said:


> If its a painted, rather than a raised physical roundabout, then you can legally drive straight over or around it wrong side, if its safe to do so - I was told that by a senior driving examiner some years back. They purposefully put just painted roundabouts in locations where they want the traffic to be faster / safer than a crossroads and its too narrow to put a raised roundabout.
> 
> When it's a dangerous location, they put in a raised physical mini-roundabout and widen the junction.
> 
> ...


Nope, raised roundabout. I guess psople see buses going over it and figure its ok for them to miss it out completely
I've even had people speed up just so they can sit on my bumper if i pull out while they are a good 100 yards away. One moron tried to overtake me when i was going round the roundabout and then got all fighty until i pointed out my rear facing dash cam was recording, wasn't so fighty then.


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## petemattw (Nov 3, 2008)

GleemSpray said:


> If its a painted, rather than a raised physical roundabout, then you can legally drive straight over or around it wrong side,
> 
> Sent from my P027 using Tapatalk


Not true. You should always go around a roundabout unless the size of the vehicle you are driving prevents this from being possible. Doubt a car could fail to get round so in a car it's an offence, in a bus or a lorry though it would be a different matter


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## Radish293 (Mar 16, 2012)

petemattw said:


> Not true. You should always go around a roundabout unless the size of the vehicle you are driving prevents this from being possible. Doubt a car could fail to get round so in a car it's an offence, in a bus or a lorry though it would be a different matter


Rule 188 of the Highway Code. 
Mini-roundabouts. Approach these in the same way as normal roundabouts. All vehicles MUST pass round the central markings except large vehicles which are physically incapable of doing so. Remember, there is less space to manoeuvre and less time to signal. Avoid making U-turns at mini-roundabouts. Beware of others doing this.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## petemattw (Nov 3, 2008)

Radish293 said:


> Rule 188 of the Highway Code.
> Mini-roundabouts. Approach these in the same way as normal roundabouts. All vehicles MUST pass round the central markings except large vehicles which are physically incapable of doing so. Remember, there is less space to manoeuvre and less time to signal. Avoid making U-turns at mini-roundabouts. Beware of others doing this.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Thanks for confirming my point


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## ollienoclue (Jan 30, 2017)

No way is any child of mine riding a motorbike on the road. Fudge that.

The standard of car driving is appalling and will continue to be so until this anti-speeding focus is dropped.

Folk need to pay attention and drive with more observation and care.


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## Pinky (Feb 15, 2008)

I reckoned I was a quite good driver before doing an Ambulance A/e driving course but I really learned a lot regarding observation , lines through corners etc with the help of a really good instructor and roadcraft.
I would have loved to do a Police traffic driving course but wasn't allowed to as it is way more complex and advanced.
Imo they teach learners to drive to pass their test nowadays and they don't get skills like three point turn ,reverse round corners etc etc and they should make it that when you pass the driving test within two years they have to sit and pass an advanced test.


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## petemattw (Nov 3, 2008)

Well it’s been an interesting ride this evening... On the blood bike, so far I’ve had numerous cars parked facing the oncoming traffic with headlights on blinding me, a coach came out of a side road without stopping to lo9 then skidded across the road and locked up when he suddenly saw me - I’m lit up like a Xmas tree so not hard to see! Best one though was the private hire car driver who turned into the road I was on, coming onto my side of the road he cut the corner so much then proceeded to drive head on at me!

If people are going back to work tomorrow and everyone is driving I think there is going to be a big increase in traffic collisions!!!


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## Naddy37 (Oct 27, 2005)

Pinky said:


> I reckoned I was a quite good driver before doing an Ambulance A/e driving course but I really learned a lot regarding observation , lines through corners etc with the help of a really good instructor and roadcraft.
> .


I had real trouble with 'limit points' when doing my IAM. Strangely when I did my RoSPA, we didn't cover limit points.

It's quite strange how other motorists react to you thou. Where you'll do a perfectly legal, ie, slice the bend off, you'll have a car behind you, which has been a perfectly safe distance behind, back off even more because they think you're sloshed!


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## VW STEVE. (Mar 18, 2012)

AndyN01 said:


> The speed limit and the "appropriate" speed are two completely different things.
> 
> I've posted before that I've been 2 up, fully loaded on our BMW bike at over 130mph in Germany and I was NOT the fastest thing on the 2 lane dual carriageway. So what's an "appropriate" speed on a deserted, dry, unlimited visibility 4 lane motorway? IMHO it isn't necessarily the "speed limit" BUT I'll happily take you along some local "national speed limit" roads where if you're much over 20mph you'll be doing the next part of your journey in an ambulance.
> 
> ...


...........totally agree Andy. Modern cars & bikes have loads of safety features & tech on them these days compared to when speed limits were introduced back in the 60's. 
I totally agree with the current limits in towns,outside schools etc but on a modern 4 lane motorway we are still restricted to 70mph?. I don't agree.


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## The happy goat (Jun 26, 2019)

VW STEVE. said:


> ...........totally agree Andy. Modern cars & bikes have loads of safety features & tech on them these days compared to when speed limits were introduced back in the 60's.
> I totally agree with the current limits in towns,outside schools etc but on a modern 4 lane motorway we are still restricted to 70mph?. I don't agree.


The trouble is there are muppets on the road that go 20-30 MPH over the 70 limit so if you raise it to 80 or 90 the same muppets will still be going 20-30 over the new limit.

Anyone with a license can get in to what ever they (or daddy) can afford and drive fast without any experience of driving at speed!


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## muzzer (Feb 13, 2011)

The happy goat said:


> The trouble is there are muppets on the road that go 20-30 MPH over the 70 limit so if you raise it to 80 or 90 the same muppets will still be going 20-30 over the new limit.
> 
> *Anyone with a license can get in to what ever they* (or daddy) can afford and drive fast without any experience of driving at speed!


Which brings us back to my point about having a staggered licence system like motorbikes currently have.
17 and passed your test - nothing more potent than a 1.2 corsa

21 and passed your test see above but say a 1.4

once you have 2 years experience, then up to say an MX5 or equivalent.

4 yrs experience up to a 2 litre engine, say maximum of 250bhp.

Don't care if Daddy is rich, you should not be able to go out at 17, pass your test and jump into an M3/Ferarri/Lmaborghini etc, the system is outdated and needs shaking up badly. This includes people being able to deminstrate that they can _drive_ not just steer a car.

And don't get me started on leaning when you turn the steering wheel, my eldest step daughter did it first time i went out with her when she had l plates, she leaned it that much i thought she was coming to say hello to my knees.


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## The happy goat (Jun 26, 2019)

muzzer said:


> Which brings us back to my point about having a staggered licence system like motorbikes currently have.
> 17 and passed your test - nothing more potent than a 1.2 corsa
> 
> 21 and passed your test see above but say a 1.4
> ...


Totally agree with you!


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## Alex_225 (Feb 7, 2008)

Funny I came across this thread today as I took my car for a bit of a drive (to a mechanic!) so on the M25 at about 0830 this morning. Amazingly quiet for that time of day. 

What I did notice was that despite there being fewer cars on the road there were still plenty of stand out morons around. Notably lorry drivers. One of which pulled out on me as I'm passing in lane 2. He was pulling out to pass a car but due to the incline he slowed and the car sailed past, literally pulled in front of me at about 50mph and I had no option to brake as cars to my right. I part anticipated the move but if he'd read the road even slightly, he wouldn't have bothered as ended up pulling back to lane one having passed nothing. Noticed quite a number of HGVs doing the elephant race where one passes the other at 0.0001mph faster than the other. 

Also had a chap in a white Discovery, come round to my right as I'm at a large roundabout pull away as quick as possible then take the first exit off the roundabout. My car was in limp mode so I could only pull away slowly but if I'd have pulled away normally, he'd have taken the front of my car off!


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## Naddy37 (Oct 27, 2005)

Alex_225 said:


> Noticed quite a number of HGVs doing the elephant race where one passes the other at 0.0001mph faster than the other.
> !


Keep well away from the M11 between Stansted & Cambridge then. Got stuck behind two HGV's once, it's 2 lanes, 9 miles it took for this HGV to pass the other!


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## AndyN01 (Feb 16, 2016)

Naddy37 said:


> Keep well away from the M11 between Stansted & Cambridge then. Got stuck behind two HGV's once, it's 2 lanes, 9 miles it took for this HGV to pass the other!


I think it's the French who ban lorries overtaing each other on two lane dual carriageways between 8am & 8pm.

Maybe somthing we should adopt because it causes frustration and that leads to collisions.

Andy.


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## VW STEVE. (Mar 18, 2012)

The happy goat said:


> The trouble is there are muppets on the road that go 20-30 MPH over the 70 limit so if you raise it to 80 or 90 the same muppets will still be going 20-30 over the new limit.
> 
> Anyone with a license can get in to what ever they (or daddy) can afford and drive fast without any experience of driving at speed!


............but in Germany it works on a lot of there roads. As before cars are so much safer these days but they don't take that into account over here.


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## petemattw (Nov 3, 2008)

VW STEVE. said:


> ............but in Germany it works on a lot of there roads. As before cars are so much safer these days but they don't take that into account over here.


when things go wrong in germany, people don't walk away from it. Have you seen the state of vehicles after high speed crashes on the unlimited sections of the autobahns?

Based on the driving i've seen during lockdown when the roads have been quieter than ever, the ability of most drivers is woeful at best. Forget how much tech there is in cars, people still do stupid things, like driving head on at me on a marked emergency bike! Everyone thinks they are a great driver unfortunately, until they realise they aren't.

I ride with the IAM and I've had young guys at bike fairs talking to me and say it's not for them, they are great and ride fast and it would be boring, having taken a few of them out they've struggled to keep up even though i'm doing legal speeds as they can only go fast in a straight line, don't look ahead, don't anticipate things in advance and have terrible road positioning. These hot shots have then realised that to be a good driver or rider is about more than having a fast machine and ripping the throttle open.

Until more people start to actively drive every time they get in the car, instead of it being something they are doing whilst focusing on phone calls, the kids on the back seat or dancing to music, driving standards will get worse and the reliance on technology to keep people safe just continually dumbs down peoples focus. If we replaced airbags with a big metal spike that went into your head if you crashed i'm sure people would pay a lot more attention!


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## muzzer (Feb 13, 2011)

AndyN01 said:


> I think it's the French who ban lorries overtaing each other on two lane dual carriageways between 8am & 8pm.
> 
> Maybe somthing we should adopt because it causes frustration and that leads to collisions.
> 
> Andy.


There is a section of the A14 where that system is in place, wanna guess how many lorry drivers observe it? None that i've seen, every time i go along that road during restricted hours there is always a lorry overtaking another. Always.
But unless they are caught in the act, whats the point?


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## AndyN01 (Feb 16, 2016)

muzzer said:


> There is a section of the A14 where that system is in place, wanna guess how many lorry drivers observe it? None that i've seen, every time i go along that road during restricted hours there is always a lorry overtaking another. Always.
> But unless they are caught in the act, whats the point?


Maybe they could spend some speed - oops, sorry, safety - camera money on installing CCTV and prosecute from that (although I don't think they legally can ???).

Or, maybe, they could employ some Traffic Police officers to patrol and enforce. Perhaps they could pick up a few mobile phone users etc, etc, while out and about?

There's no point in legislation if it's not seen to be enforced.

Andy.


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## VW STEVE. (Mar 18, 2012)

petemattw said:


> when things go wrong in germany, people don't walk away from it. Have you seen the state of vehicles after high speed crashes on the unlimited sections of the autobahns?
> 
> Based on the driving i've seen during lockdown when the roads have been quieter than ever, the ability of most drivers is woeful at best. Forget how much tech there is in cars, people still do stupid things, like driving head on at me on a marked emergency bike! Everyone thinks they are a great driver unfortunately, until they realise they aren't.
> 
> ...


.........i have been on the German Autobahns a few times in the last few years & ''yes'' accidents do happen BUT on the Autobahns there lane discipline is a lot stricter over there than here so that does help keep the accidents down. My point being cars are much safer these days & can stop a lot quicker with many safety features that the old cars had that were driving on drum brakes had with NO safety features when the 70mph limit was introduced back in the 60's.


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## The happy goat (Jun 26, 2019)

VW STEVE. said:


> .........i have been on the German Autobahns a few times in the last few years & ''yes'' accidents do happen BUT on the Autobahns there lane discipline is a lot stricter over there than here so that does help keep the accidents down. My point being cars are much safer these days & can stop a lot quicker with many safety features that the old cars had that were driving on drum brakes had with NO safety features when the 70mph limit was introduced back in the 60's.


Never been to Germany so I can't comment, Yes you are right back in the 60s when there wasn't as many cars on the road!

There's an argument for both sides I can see that but you mention lane discipline which will not work here as with most people on the road they only care about themselves and how fast they can get to where they want to go.


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## petemattw (Nov 3, 2008)

VW STEVE. said:


> .........i have been on the German Autobahns a few times in the last few years & ''yes'' accidents do happen BUT on the Autobahns there lane discipline is a lot stricter over there than here so that does help keep the accidents down. My point being cars are much safer these days & can stop a lot quicker with many safety features that the old cars had that were driving on drum brakes had with NO safety features when the 70mph limit was introduced back in the 60's.


you've been lucky. I've been on the autobahn on an unrestricted section doing close to 140mph and had a lorry pull out on me, totally unexpected, no signal that they were doing it. I had the brake pedal on the floor and was convinced i touched the back of the trailer... No safety features in any car can replace good observations and considerations of the impact your actions will take on other people... Until people can focus on driving when they are driving speeds need to be bought down, because at least then the impact is reduced.... I disagree with the focus on speed as the be all and end all to issues, but as there's no policing people who do not focus on their driving this will never end...


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## Darlofan (Nov 24, 2010)

Traffic density is one of the biggest factors. Yeah less traffic won't cure the minority of idiots but let's be honest with less traffic the majority would relax and stop the speeding. Then dangerous driving that goes on because people are held up in jams or can't get above 60 due to levels of traffic would ease.


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## Christian6984 (Dec 20, 2007)

Has been quite nice the last few weeks while most have been off work, roads have been nice for us key workers. Today had cars in front of me on drive home from work, and several areas which the speed camera vans like to play out in the 6 miles drive home, got caught when i was a younger driver and am much better at sticking to speed limits these days for sure. Had a car tailgate me in the 30mph speed limits and clap his hands as i sped up when it increased to 50mph, couldnt pass me on the straights as on coming cars and is pointless as was at least two cars in front of me. Then junction where i turn down to get to my house is just in front of the white Berlingo van in the photo, 50mph sweeping bend that you cannot see around, its a bit of tight junction and has double white lines, he decides to clap his hands again as i signal to turn and overtakes me crossing to the other side of the road as i turn, if a wagon such as the one in the photo was coming round the bend and struck his Astra, id be fairly certain he'd probably have been lucky if he survived. All that risk to save a few seconds and the impatience is crazy to me as it can be a frequent re-occurrence


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## muzzer (Feb 13, 2011)

If he clapped me i'd have slowed back down to 30mph


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## Andy from Sandy (May 6, 2011)

When I am out that is all I expect; if it is 30 we do 30 when the limit increases we all pick up speed.

For some nit-wit to expect you to speed through the 30 is just being a ****.


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## Naddy37 (Oct 27, 2005)

petemattw said:


> I ride with the IAM and I've had young guys at bike fairs talking to me and say it's not for them, they are great and ride fast and it would be boring, having taken a few of them out they've struggled to keep up even though i'm doing legal speeds as they can only go fast in a straight line, don't look ahead, don't anticipate things in advance and have terrible road positioning. These hot shots have then realised that to be a good driver or rider is about more than having a fast machine and ripping the throttle open.


I quickly found this out while doing my IAM years ago. At the time I had a brand new 1.0 Micra. Obviously not the fasted thing on the road :lol:, but, get taught how to take a series of bends correctly, and OMG, it turns into quite a fun little car.

I can still remember one lesson, out near Newmarket, came across several s bends. Instructor had warned me, full mirror check was done and he told me 'drive thru the bends, don't drive them normally' I'm like 'Eh?!?' Yup, that was a fun lesson, even for a 1.0 Micra


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## muzzer (Feb 13, 2011)

Naddy37 said:


> I quickly found this out while doing my IAM years ago. At the time I had a brand new 1.0 Micra. Obviously not the fasted thing on the road :lol:, but, get taught how to take a series of bends correctly, and OMG, it turns into quite a fun little car.
> 
> I can still remember one lesson, out near Newmarket, came across several s bends. Instructor had warned me, full mirror check was done and he told me 'drive thru the bends, don't drive them normally' I'm like 'Eh?!?' Yup, that was a fun lesson, even for a 1.0 Micra


If you know what you are doing, on a country road sit at the nsl and most people wont be able to keep up let alone come past you. Straights obviously are a different story but when i still had my GTi i managed to wind up a guy in a Ferarri who was out showing his young lady friend how fast his car was. I sat at the speed limit and he couldnt keep up, we were on the B660 heading towards Bedford for reference. On the straights he'd come flying up behind me, then as soon as it go twisty, he'd vanish again.

Boy was he angry when we finally got a long enough straight to get past, only for him to hold me up in the next set of bends.

Also, the Barton le Clay to Hitchin road is good for sorting out who can actually drive and not just steer.


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## spursfan (Aug 4, 2009)

wayne451 said:


> Muzzer, why should I ride a bike first? Crazy logic. Some of the worst 'driving' I see on the roads is from bike riders.
> 
> I was 17 and had a Nova GTE and Renault 5 Turbo. I used to pick which car I took in to college. If I could turn back the clock, that'd be the time I'd go back to. I was nuts deep in guts. :lol:


you learn more about road awareness etc when you ride a motorbike.
My driving instructor told me afrer my very first car lesson that my awareness was well above practically all the new drivers he was teaching, he said we will concentrate on just how the car works rather than roadcraft, the result was passed first time after 8 lessons. 
I guess when riding bikes, you need to be more aware of what the road surface is in front of you, cars, diesel spills, metal manholes covered in water etc...all real hazards on a bike, nothing in a car..
I agree with Muzzer on this


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## spursfan (Aug 4, 2009)

Naddy37 said:


> Keep well away from the M11 between Stansted & Cambridge then. Got stuck behind two HGV's once, it's 2 lanes, 9 miles it took for this HGV to pass the other!


happens every time I get on the m25, and Lorry drivers insist they are good drivers:wall:


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## planehazza (Jan 25, 2018)

Not that I'm a particularly great driver, but I do consider myself to be fairly decent with good situational awareness. We've just come back from a food pick up, about 15 miles total. The amount of idiocy we witnessed was unreal. People either speeding or doing half the limit, or just pulling out assuming the roads are empty, despite them clearly being busy even for 'normal' standards.

On the way back, people just pulling out of the inside lane in front of me doing 50 in a 70 for no reason. I think my biggest bug bear, and this happens all of the effing time is peoples apparent complete lack of understanding of how to merge. Why the <curse word of choice> do people not think to accelerate to the appropriate speed of the dual carriageway traffic? So I'm in the inside lane doing 70, meanwhile Mr BMW x5 doing 80+ going past with muppets indicating to join from the sliproad at <50. ****ing speed up you [email protected]

Cyclists have a right to be on the road too, but don't get me started on the adolescent idiots without helmets or any protection. We saw one young couple causing quese and distractions; male idiot was on a bike with no helmet, towing his female idiot companion on a skateboard. 200m behind was a squad car, so I hope they were stopped.

So, yes, I'm still wound up. Went out for the first time in weeks, came back stressed and probably in the dog house cos I shouted... a lot.

Wish I hadn't disconnected my harddrive from the car or I could have shared it all with you.


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## ollienoclue (Jan 30, 2017)

Bikers are by necessity better at reading the road- one pothole, drain lid or imperfection in the road or puddle could have you off. Better observation and reactions too I would bet.


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