# Wet Sand!



## Auto Finesse (Jan 10, 2007)

Well this is not a full all out correction detail or any thing like that, i was asked while at a garage i was working at if i would take a look at some thing that got traded in, "yep no worries" i say  in comes this black Lexus with some of the worst Bird etching iv seen, its a 56 plate car and the guy who took it in "never noticed it" now normally if this was a private clients car i would not risk touching it (unless we had an agreement that if it cant fix it it goes straight to our body shop) well that was kind of the case here, if i could not fix it it was going to go for a FULL respray, yep every panel is like this:doublesho so if it all went teribly wrong it was not the end of the world :thumb: that give me some breathing at least, still i dont need to **** it up all the same.

Before:










This was deep set, so after some testing the only way i could get the result i needed was 1500WD:










Followed by 2000 then 3000:



















Now the guys in the work shop where looking at me funny, ie "hes [email protected] that right up" kind of look :lol:

But 3M FCP and a Compounding pad gives you this (forget the swirls for the mo):










And a finishing polish:










For now its a work in progress but back Monday to finish a few more panels, maybe even a 3rd day too :buffer::buffer: but so far so good, :thumb:

All Q's and A's welcome

James B


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## -ROM- (Feb 23, 2007)

i'm just wondering how much clear coat you removed and if a respray would not have been a better option for whoever eventually buys it to avoid premature clearcoat failure?


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## tdm (Feb 2, 2007)

nice work there james,very impressive :thumb:.


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## tdm (Feb 2, 2007)

unless its going to be a top notch respray, i think the end customer is far better off with james working his magic on the vehicle than whatever a bodyshop does to it:thumb:


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## [email protected] (Dec 21, 2005)

very good work james. Ive seen some bad bird etching in the past and it is really good when you get a finish result like that! Excellent!:thumb:


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## Rowan83 (Aug 21, 2007)

Looks much better, what did the garage say?


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## Auto Finesse (Jan 10, 2007)

rmorgan84 said:


> i'm just wondering how much clear coat you removed and if a respray would not have been a better option for whoever eventually buys it to avoid premature clearcoat failure?


Cor do you ever not drag a thread down :tumbleweed: im gona call you GRINCH from now on 

I know how much i removed  and you will see soon enough it was well under the "safe limit" i cant go more than that due to needing to machine it up after, As for it not being good for the new owner, ??? i see what your saying but on the other hand would you rather buy a car with orig paint or repainted??

At the end of the day sadly im not working for the "new owner" im working for a trader needing to make some profit selling the car and to them this is a no brainer even at my hourly rate :thumb:


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## Wozza (Mar 3, 2007)

rmorgan84 said:


> i'm just wondering how much clear coat you removed and if a respray would not have been a better option for whoever eventually buys it to avoid premature clearcoat failure?


:wall: It would probably cost more to respray one or two panels than what James will charge them - and the dealer probably thinks once its sold who cares, its all about profit.


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## Wozza (Mar 3, 2007)

james b said:


> Cor do you ever not drag a thread down :tumbleweed: im gona call you GRINCH from now on


Yep gotta agree James - you can count on him everytime


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## Trist (Jun 23, 2006)

Brilliant work:thumb: What did the shop guys say?


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## -ROM- (Feb 23, 2007)

james b said:


> Cor do you ever not drag a thread down :tumbleweed: im gona call you GRINCH from now on
> 
> I know how much i removed  and you will see soon enough it was well under the "safe limit" i cant go more than that due to needing to machine it up after, As for it not being good for the new owner, ??? i see what your saying but on the other hand would you rather buy a car with orig paint or repainted??
> 
> At the end of the day sadly im not working for the "new owner" im working for a trader needing to make some profit selling the car and to them this is a no brainer even at my hourly rate :thumb:





> Yep gotta agree James - you can count on him everytime


fair point about who you're working for.

I wasn't trying to bring the thread down. But you did say questions welcome and this was my question.

I'll keep my mouth shut from now on. Anyone would have sworn there was a thread earlier today where the pros were complaining about having generic "great work" respnonses and no one asks them questions or gives constructive criticism. OH THAT'S RIGHT THERE WAS.


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## Auto Finesse (Jan 10, 2007)

^^ its all good, but your post kind of pulls down what i have achieved, this is what the guys are talking about in the "studio members" post earlier if you post up some thing thats a bit different you get it picked apart for no reason just cos people are not used to pushing it like this, Im more than capable of this type of work, however if it was a case of i could live with it if you cant remove it i would not, but it was no the basis "if you cant fix it it going to the body shop so do your worst" this gave me a chance to really push what i practise on those scrap panels at my work shop every week pretty much, on a live job.

There happy so far, im not finished yet i have only done the bonnet and a bit of the roof, i still got the rest of the car to do.

Even if i cant save some parts, i will at least save 80% of the car from a respray.


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## Wash'n'Go (Mar 13, 2007)

That reminds me of a customers car, he asked me to do a full valet on his new E-class Merc. Now bearing in mind this customer had a Golf GTI and a Volvo XC90 (Company car), so he trade's in the Golf for the E-class. So I thought an E-320 or something like that.......Oh no its a brand new E65 AMG in Black and it's covered in bird etchings which has removed the laquer, I mentioned that it was a serious job to put right and that he should garage the car instead of parking it under a tree. He said don't worry about it just give it a polish. Unbelievable £100k car and the paintwork is ruined and he's not bothered. Hey ho


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## Paul-T (Nov 2, 2006)

Nice opportunity to do a job like this with a safety net other than your insurance, very impressive. 

And rmorgan, because I know you like to be right I'll assist you. It was Ronnie that made the point you've mentioned, I responded and agreed with it. 

But I too am interested to know the amount of clear removed once finished, I have not used 1500 grit to wet sand with.


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## minimadgriff (Jul 8, 2007)

nice work james


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## Brazo (Oct 27, 2005)

rmorgan84 said:


> I wasn't trying to bring the thread down. But you did say questions welcome and this was my question.


I am sure that wasn't the intention but it did come across that way, although tbh I couldn't word it myself without sounding slightly contentious!

Anyway back to topic

'Great work James' 

But seriously a good demonstration of what wet sanding can achieve - out of interest what was the total amount removed? you don't need to give before and after figures if you would rather not!


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## Auto Finesse (Jan 10, 2007)

alot il give you that lads, 

There is no way i can give you 100% accurate readings, as the etched bits (the bits i really worked on) where raised when affected, they read over 200, the rest of the panel read 120 on Av, the readings i got most accurate where just next to the etching and they dropped 10-15 Yep il give you that its a big drop but it saved a respray, will it fail in time to come? personally i would say not likely, i dont believe the whole top 20% having the UV protection in as i have had confirmation (and this is from a very very good source) that is not true as the same CC is used through out and nothing rises/falls, It a shame i could not get split readings across teh whole car but i did manage in a couple of areas ie the roof and it was reading aprox 38m cc


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## Refined Detail (Nov 27, 2006)

Bugger that :lol: - rather you than me!

I guess it just proves what can be achieved when you take your time and are careful - hats off to you! :thumb:


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## drive 'n' shine (Apr 22, 2006)

Shine On said:


> I have not used 1500 grit to wet sand with.


Should have said Paul we could have attacked your boot with it :lol:

Nice bit of correction there JB :thumb: take no notice of Grinch (i like that) - I also agree with the UV & CC thing as well, and have been told that providing there is 8 - 9 um of cc left overall then this will provide adequate UV protection


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## Jesse74 (Jul 19, 2008)

You didn't use any kind of backing plate when you sanded? If no, how did you escape the RIDS?? Really curious, not doubting!


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## ads2k (Jul 12, 2006)

Nice job so far James :thumb:

Can you make sure you post up the completed car please, because some of us like to see a true proat work on something I wouldn't dream of attempting 

So what did the guys in the shop say, I bet they where a bit amazed with the results.


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## caledonia (Sep 13, 2008)

As said earlier Great work and is better to have a safety net when your undertaking a major job like that one. But still the same it take a lot of belief in your skills and know how to undertake it. As so a lot of nerves. Well done and look forward to your other posting. Keep up the good work.:thumb:


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## Bigpikle (May 21, 2007)

brave man - great results :thumb:

look forward to seeing the full job and results...


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## Epoch (Jul 30, 2006)

I still bet you were clenching James even with a win or bust agreement 

With regard to CC failure, something I have the intention and ability to test soon, what with now having access to a Positector destructive Pull off adhesion tester 

Car manufacturers must apply clear coat (a sacrificial layer) to exacting levels of cost versus logevity. I suspect localised sanding will reduce the cohesive bonding BUT in this instance James' was providing a service he was specifically asked to do and that serves to produce a cacking information post on DW and some income for James :thumb:


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## Auto Finesse (Jan 10, 2007)

Clever Nickname said:


> You didn't use any kind of backing plate when you sanded? If no, how did you escape the RIDS?? Really curious, not doubting!


Cos i know what im doing  :lol: 1500 was done hand and paper, as i have more precise control that way, finishing 2000, 4000 was by pad


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## L200 Steve (Oct 25, 2005)

Epoch said:


> I still bet you were clenching James even with a win or bust agreement
> 
> With regard to CC failure, something *WE* have the intention and ability to test soon, what with now having access to *L200 Steve's* Positector destructive Pull off adhesion tester
> 
> Car manufacturers must apply clear coat (a sacrificial layer) to exacting levels of cost versus logevity. *WE* suspect localised sanding will reduce the cohesive bonding BUT in this instance James' was providing a service he was specifically asked to do and that serves to produce a cacking information post on DW and some income for James :thumb:


Edited for accuracy:thumb:


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## L200 Steve (Oct 25, 2005)

Nice work James:thumb:


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## Epoch (Jul 30, 2006)

L200 Steve said:


> Edited for accuracy:thumb:


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## Buck (Jan 16, 2008)

Excellent work James - that finish looks superb - dealer must be breathing a sigh of relief and gratitude!. One question if I may?

This is the first time I've seen anyone wetsand with 1500 - if you had gone in with 2000 or even 3000 could you have got the same results but just taken longer or would they have not shifted the etching?

Thanks

CM


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## Auto Finesse (Jan 10, 2007)

cheekeemonkey said:


> Excellent work James - that finish looks superb - dealer must be breathing a sigh of relief and gratitude!. One question if I may?
> 
> This is the first time I've seen anyone wetsand with 1500 - if you had gone in with 2000 or even 3000 could you have got the same results but just taken longer or would they have not shifted the etching?
> 
> ...


I think 3000 would have took ages

2000 yes, but it would have took a fair bit longer, i was paid "on the clock" so needed to get it done in a decent time frame


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## Buck (Jan 16, 2008)

Thanks - just wasn't sure if a finer would have just polished it more than sanded it!!


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## Offyourmarks (Jan 4, 2006)

nice work mate - takes some nerve

matt


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## leistrum (Feb 10, 2007)

It is a terrific result that you have achieved there, no doubt about it. My understanding though is that if you use 'finger' pressure without the sponge backing pads you can get (Meguiars do one) , you are removing more material where the finger tips are than the gaps between them. It would be safer to cut a small backing pad to generate even pressure and that way you are only removing the high point of the damaged section until you have managed to correct it. With localised finger pressure the possibility exists that you may remove more than you need to. Not wishing to criticise as I definitely have less experience of detailing than you do, just passing on a tip given to me by a friend who restores classic cars.


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## Auto Finesse (Jan 10, 2007)

leistrum said:


> It is a terrific result that you have achieved there, no doubt about it. My understanding though is that if you use 'finger' pressure without the sponge backing pads you can get (Meguiars do one) , you are removing more material where the finger tips are than the gaps between them. It would be safer to cut a small backing pad to generate even pressure and that way you are only removing the high point of the damaged section until you have managed to correct it. With localised finger pressure the possibility exists that you may remove more than you need to. Not wishing to criticise as I definitely have less experience of detailing than you do, just passing on a tip given to me by a friend who restores classic cars.


You are right but this is where my refinishing experience comes in, some thing you are taught when flatting primer or CC off is you never go inline with your fingers, you go diagonal, so you dont "ridge" the finish ,

I have pleanty of blocks etc at my disposal, but this is the best way for me to get fast accurate cut, Blocking is better if your doing big areas IE OP removal etc, but i was trying to keep work area down as not to cause my self more work than i already have.


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## Auto Finesse (Jan 10, 2007)

cheekeemonkey said:


> Thanks - just wasn't sure if a finer would have just polished it more than sanded it!!


A finer paper will cut just at a slower rate


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## leistrum (Feb 10, 2007)

james b said:


> You are right but this is where my refinishing experience comes in, some thing you are taught when flatting primer or CC off is you never go inline with your fingers, you go diagonal, so you dont "ridge" the finish ,
> 
> I have pleanty of blocks etc at my disposal, but this is the best way for me to get fast accurate cut, Blocking is better if your doing big areas IE OP removal etc, but i was trying to keep work area down as not to cause my self more work than i already have.


You obviously know exactly what you are doing, thanks for understanding I was trying to help! I hope the rest of the car comes out as good as the bonnet did! I had some bird etc hing on a black fabia vrs that I owned, and it took about an hour and a half of repeated hits with scratch x! The wetsanding is obviously a great tool in your armoury especially when time is in short supply! Plus saves your elbows!


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## Auto Finesse (Jan 10, 2007)

^^ no i understand exactly what you mean, its a good thing you pointed it out as i never mentioned it due to it being second nature for me, however if people go and try a little WS them slefs they may have gone inline.

Trust me i did it on a whole side of a Nissan Primara (they where new back then) that was primed up and the guy i worked for went mental cos i ridged the [email protected] out of it, i spent hours on that side too lol, i never did that again


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## Clark @ PB (Mar 1, 2006)

Where experience and knowledge counts, nice one mate!


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## Mirror Finish Details (Aug 21, 2008)

Oh really good thread. I love the wet sanding threads as that is where I feel my weakness is. Thanks for that.


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## tdekany (Jul 22, 2006)

Excellent results so far.

I sure use 1500 grit paper when it is needed. I don't see what the big deal is.


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## Ronnie (Nov 15, 2006)

nice work there James cool to see a mini post. now that is some bad etching...


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## Auto Finesse (Jan 10, 2007)

Ronnie said:


> nice work there James cool to see a mini post. now that is some bad etching...


Thanks mate :thumb: Im back to finish the rest off tomorrow so will take some more pics and update the thread :thumb:


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## paddy328 (Mar 4, 2007)

Well done that man.


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## Mark M (Nov 29, 2006)

Looking fwd to the full write up on this JB, superb results 

Takes some balls to wetsand anyways in my eyes, even if insured. But, as Clark says, experience counts, and you know what you are doing.

Nice to have the safety net there of free respray, really allows you to go to the limits.

This is where a proper thickness gauge comes into it's elements, and I wouldn't suggest people go to this extent without one. I for one wouldn't.

How old is the car, and how long had the turds been left on the paint? Also, were they eating nuclear waste :lol:


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## Grizzle (Jul 12, 2006)

Thats a cracking job done mate


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## Auto Finesse (Jan 10, 2007)

Mark M said:


> Looking fwd to the full write up on this JB, superb results
> 
> Takes some balls to wetsand anyways in my eyes, even if insured. But, as Clark says, experience counts, and you know what you are doing.
> 
> ...


Thanks mate :thumb: some of the etching seems to be from berrys and leaves as well as bird poo, its a 56 plate car too :doublesho


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## Brazo (Oct 27, 2005)

Back on topic please gents:thumb:

offending posts removed


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## -ROM- (Feb 23, 2007)

apologies mark, i shouldn't have risen to it. However i just felt a bit annoyed as my question was genuine, on the same day as a number of pros mentioned that they didn't feel rewarded for taking the time to do write ups as all the got was generic replies and no discussion provoking questions/comments.

So i ask a serious question about whether what was done was the best course of action as a respray was half on the cards anyway, how it would affect the longevity of the car's finish, etc and all i get in return is abuse.


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## drive 'n' shine (Apr 22, 2006)

Mr Morgan do you have to clog JB's thread with your whinging?


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## Auto Finesse (Jan 10, 2007)

rmorgan84 said:


> apologies mark, i shouldn't have risen to it. However i just felt a bit annoyed as my question was genuine, on the same day as a number of pros mentioned that they didn't feel rewarded for taking the time to do write ups as all the got was generic replies and no discussion provoking questions/comments.
> 
> So i ask a serious question about whether what was done was the best course of action as a respray was half on the cards anyway, how it would affect the longevity of the car's finish, etc and all i get in return is abuse.


My comments to you where light hearted Grinch  i see what your saying ... but im not working for the new owner im working for some one needing to make profit you need to understand that, also i dont think the new client would benefit from a respray over my work, each are entitled to there opinion. see if it was you polishing a bumper then i would say the owner would definately be better off with a respray


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## -ROM- (Feb 23, 2007)

james b said:


> My comments to you where light hearted Grinch  i see what your saying ... but im not working for the new owner im working for some one needing to make profit you need to understand that, also i dont think the new client would benefit from a respray over my work, each are entitled to there opinion. see if it was you polishing a bumper then i would say the owner would definately be better off with a respray


yeah that's fine i've not got issue with you as we cleared it up it's the people who have continued after you'd explained your reasons which i accepted:thumb:


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## graeme (Jan 7, 2006)

Nice job there superb correction. I have loads of stonechips on my vectra's bumper and bonnet and a scratch on rear door i was going to try wet sanding on. Trouble is i have no PTG and am cacking my calvins at the thought of making a mess of it. 
Bumper and bonnet i might just be better getting sprayed i guess but want to avoid that cost if i can.

Cheers for the thread it does let us new less experienced detailers see techniques that could be used and i hope will offer me inspiration to overcome my fear and have a go:thumb:


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## bidderman1969 (Oct 20, 2006)

cracking post james


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## Christian6984 (Dec 20, 2007)

brilliant work, cant wait for the final result


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## tmclssns (Dec 28, 2006)

Nice work - any reason why you're not using a sanding backing plate (picture of you sanding...) as I thought sanding like that was a big NO because you can get an uneven scratch pattern with the risk of removing more clear at your fingertips..


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## dominic84 (Jan 27, 2007)

Excellent :thumb: If you can produce results like that then I expect the dealer is going to be booking loads more similar cars in with you


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## ahaydock (Jan 4, 2007)

Nice job.


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## Big Ells (May 12, 2007)

I'm still a novice at detailing, and it amazes me what some of you guys can do! I would be petrified to take sand paper to a car's paint, but when you know what you’re doing, boy can you guys get results, top notch work again James, see you on the 15th


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## MrLOL (Feb 23, 2007)

any more updates on this ?

excellent progress so far.


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## Lappy (Jan 21, 2008)

tmclssns said:


> Nice work - any reason why you're not using a sanding backing plate (picture of you sanding...) as I thought sanding like that was a big NO because you can get an uneven scratch pattern with the risk of removing more clear at your fingertips..


I thought the same...

But as Clark posted, he has been practicing over and over on scrap panels.
So I think that's really the key in this, getting the right feeling to it.
And than I can also imagine, that working like he did gives a much better feedback of how far he can go.

Cracking job, love to see more!


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## Summit Detailing (Oct 9, 2006)

good work so far that man:thumb:

having spent the best part of 6hrs doing something similar on a brand new car last week I can fully appreciate the time/work involved..not to mention numerous coffees

look forward to seeing it completed


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## Piratez (Jun 28, 2008)

Brilliant work, very confident


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