# Coatings Thickness Ever Verified



## Otto (Feb 2, 2013)

As per title really

Coatings come with claims of added thickness
Polish Angel Cosmic 10-14micron
Modesta BC-05 3-5micron

There is also a load of 12month+ coatings available inc Gtechniq G1+EXO2, 22PPLE, CQuartz. Do any of these apply in a set thickness

*Question is has anyone ever actually measured thickness before and after application of any of these coatings?*

This can not only determine if these claims are correct but we may even see a difference in application (Machine vs Hand) which could further inform our decision making in the future....

Thanks
Otto


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## Alex L (Oct 25, 2005)

Good question Otto :thumb:

and one I've been waiting to see for a while, I asked a detailer who makes out everything is like Unicorn tears and he said it did but never produced any proof.

Kelly @ KDS made a very interesting post on another forum about how much product you'd need to achieve the claimed thicknesses.

I'll see if I can find it.


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## Otto (Feb 2, 2013)

A lot of us have a Paint Thickness Gauge that will measure microns

It would be fantastic to see any before and afters

Also I knew it was only a matter of time until the usual suspects from the Polish Angel thread came over :thumb::thumb:


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## adjones (Apr 24, 2013)

I've heard of people using thickness monitors but I'm not convinced. My monitor is only approximate. It claims to be well accurate but the same spot can read different day to day and differences around the car can be huge. I could apply a spray sealant and claim it adds microns but know it doesn't really.


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## stangalang (Nov 27, 2009)

As above. Single readings are impossible (full stop). when correcting I work out averages, if you think ho small a micron is, even if I have a laser dot as a guide, there is zero chance of putting my gauge back on the exact same spot. So an average over a small area is required imo

As for coatings, there are some silly claims imo. Sure if you layer something enough on a very small section, maybe a couple of inches, you "could" achieve such thicknesses, but of you think of how much paint it takes to add 110 microns, two or even 3 small bottles will not add 10 or more imo. No amount of cross linking and swelling will get those figures over a WHOLE car. I think a few microns could be attainable though


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## Otto (Feb 2, 2013)

stangalang said:


> As for coatings, there are some silly claims imo. Sure if you layer something enough on a very small section, maybe a couple of inches, you "could" achieve such thicknesses,* but of you think of how much paint it takes to add 110 microns, two or even 3 small bottles will not add 10 or more imo.* No amount of cross linking and swelling will get those figures over a WHOLE car. I think a few microns could be attainable though


Such a valid point but one I had not considered yet
When spraying a car with my father, average car requires approx1-1.5litre to get decent coverage then you have to add almost as much in laquer so when compared to a 50ml bottle it dosnt stack up at all.

You could be conservative and estimate 2litres of paint+laquer on a car equal 100micron.
Then you would require 200ml of coating to equate to 10micron.
200ml is approx 20 coats so you'll be there a long time:buffer:

Bear in mind that is just an estimate nothing more than off the top of my head.
I will be doing a full repsray within a few weeks on my daily so Ill do some checks then which should be interesting...


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## fatdazza (Dec 29, 2010)

OK my thoughts using some maths:

1 micron = 0.001mm

Surface area of a medium car say 8m2

Volume to coat entire surface at 1 micron thick = 8ml

Now that is 8ml of *solid* material and we know these coatings have a high proportion of solvent which flashes off to leave the coating.

So assuming 80% of the liquid coating is solvent, then to coat a car 1 micron thick would take 40 ml of liquid coating.

Now my assumptions may be way off, but if someone has some better ones I am happy to rework the maths.


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## jaxcass (Oct 7, 2013)

I will be applying cquartz to the hearse next week so if no one has already done the test I will do it. If I use a laser to pin point the exact place then take the reading from there first then apply product then take reading again that will be accurate enough right??


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## Alex L (Oct 25, 2005)

Otto said:


> Also I knew it was only a matter of time until the usual suspects from the Polish Angel thread came over :thumb::thumb:


 



stangalang said:


> As above. Single readings are impossible (full stop). when correcting I work out averages, if you think ho small a micron is, even if I have a laser dot as a guide, there is zero chance of putting my gauge back on the exact same spot. So an average over a small area is required imo
> 
> As for coatings, there are some silly claims imo. Sure if you layer something enough on a very small section, maybe a couple of inches, you "could" achieve such thicknesses, but of you think of how much paint it takes to add 110 microns, two or even 3 small bottles will not add 10 or more imo. No amount of cross linking and swelling will get those figures over a WHOLE car. I think a few microns could be attainable though


Exactly, yet when I mentioned that in Hypes Everythings thread I got shot down


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## -Raven- (Aug 26, 2010)

I'm here now, what did I miss?  

But seriously, even a few micron is in the range of error of just about all PDG's. 

Using the maths that Dazza mentioned here, and I've mentioned before in previous threads is enough to tell you just about all claims are...... lets just say unrealistic.

And Dazza, yep, there's a few popular coatings that are about 20% concentration, but some of the 9H ones are 95+% too. 

I'm still waiting for my test panels to get sprayed, I got lots of different coatings to test! My approach will be a 'what does it take' to achieve manufacturers claims of hardness and thickness etc. Should be a ton of fun for sure!


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## -Raven- (Aug 26, 2010)

jaxcass said:


> I will be applying cquartz to the hearse next week so if no one has already done the test I will do it. If I use a laser to pin point the exact place then take the reading from there first then apply product then take reading again that will be accurate enough right??


Please do it! :thumb:

It will be interesting if you can even get a consistent reading with your PDG, let alone see a gain in thickness! Should be fun for sure!


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## stangalang (Nov 27, 2009)

jaxcass said:


> I will be applying cquartz to the hearse next week so if no one has already done the test I will do it. If I use a laser to pin point the exact place then take the reading from there first then apply product then take reading again that will be accurate enough right??


Not even close. A micron is a point of a millimeter. Even with a laser point, YOU would struggle to be millimetre precise let alone micron precise. Plus, assuming your laser isn't mounted pointing directly downwards then technically you wouldn't be measuring the same point at all given what little thickness has been added will change the point at which the laser hits. It's just so difficult to do it properly when dealing with microns or below.


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## adjones (Apr 24, 2013)

Only way would be lab tests, on a car has too many variables. I'm not convinced that the brands supplying most of these products have lab facilities and necessary knowledge. If they did, wouldn't we have all these sorts of questions answered long ago?


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## PaulinLincs (Jan 16, 2011)

It's like anything in life. As humans we are gullible always searching for perfection that does not exist. My wife spends nearly as much as me on face cream potions that promise eternal youth. 
I could tell you my new pound land wax adds 500 microns and will last 3 years and I guarantee someone will believe me because they want to.


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## adjones (Apr 24, 2013)

:doublesho


PaulinLincs said:


> It's like anything in life. As humans we are gullible always searching for perfection that does not exist. My wife spends nearly as much as me on face cream potions that promise eternal youth.
> I could tell you my new pound land wax adds 500 microns and will last 3 years and I guarantee someone will believe me because they want to.


just not on here. Make it really expensive and make up some strange words to accompany it and one of the DW retailers will be distributing it by next week!


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## caledonia (Sep 13, 2008)

I can say that a variety of tests were conducted. It did not cover all products on the market as far as coatings are concerned. As there are more these days than rabbits. The tests were conducted in the same lab as the wax thickness and layering test and measurements were taken. Unfortunately it is not up to me to supply any of this data as it private and personal use only. And although it was of great interest and benefit, it shall remain private and between the parties involved. 

What I can say is the equipment used within detail to measure the paint even eliminating gauge error will in no way be up to the levels required to verify any findings. And i am even considering the more expensive ultrasonic gauges in the comment. 

So why mention farcical claims. Plan and simple really and something we should all be aware of within the detailing industry. It is not lies as such, as cross linking one layer to the next. Providing it is done within the products tolerances can happen. It is simply an extension of the true. As with most LSP it is the shearing action created whist wiping off the residue that makes they coating uniform. But also reduces their total film thickness. So how can you possibly build up layers to increase the thickness to what is stated. Easy do not wipe or added friction to remove the coating after application.

It may sound stupid. But what happens when you can't reach the chosen lsp to remove the residue or wipe over and you apply a further layer within the time constraints to cause these to cross bond. You build up the given layer. This is where this information and the extension of the truths come in, as they are below surface defects and the products can be used to build up total film thickness. All products are known to mask and fill to an extent. But generally these products do not cure or become one. Coating are different and bond to one another and form a very uniform filler.

You also have to remember that these products are sold worldwide and where we on DW always look to apply these products to the best prepared surface we can, as in swirl and defect removal. Other customers might not. So the totally claims made by some are generally measured on lab equipment and on less than perfected paints. We all have a habit or looking at things through detailers eyes and our take on the marketing will be interpreted to suit our needs. But on the other had where we might thick the marketing is misleading and lies. It can be proven to ring true in some way or form.

I am not personally condoning this way of selling products or marketing, as I am the same as you. And prefer the straight factual advice on a corrected panel. But marketing is what the individual interprets it to be and we are all different. It is not lies or deceit but simply another take or spin on the situation.

Gordon.


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## -Raven- (Aug 26, 2010)

And how many layers get you 10-14 micron Gordon? Not lies maybe, but if thats not deceit by the meaning of the word, than I don't know what is.....


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## Otto (Feb 2, 2013)

-Raven- said:


> And how many layers get you 10-14 micron Gordon? Not lies maybe, but if thats not deceit by the meaning of the word, than I don't know what is.....


Word!
I think we'll be there a long time and a lot of product later to achieve 10-14micron. Might be cheaper buying some lacquer and I'll spray it on when next in the garage.

Real question is:
If we did achieve 10-14 micron would it really provide any real protection? They say 9h but this refers to a pencil hardness. We take this as impressive yet most of us have nothing to compare to. What is the actual hardness of ordinary lacquer? This highlights not only the question of the accuracy of the claims made by manufacturers but also the limited knowledge of the average consumers to not questions these factors. It is a market based on hype and branding. While this in theory is wrong I do appreciate it as it provides us so much choice and diversity.


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## Deniance (Jun 28, 2008)

i love detailing world, been a fan for years, but my god , the hype is uncontrollable, there should be a sticky, most if not all companies will spout nonsense about products, it is the same as any other markets in the world, some products are cheap and cheerful and do what they they say on the tin, then there are some super products, that if you pay the premium you will get all the rewards exactly as stated in the scientific blurb stated on the bottle!

i suppose after a few years on detailing world you will learn, but i do find some of the hype reallly odd, suppose my favourite example mof hype is the auto finesse buckets.........................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................


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## -Raven- (Aug 26, 2010)

Otto said:


> Word!
> I think we'll be there a long time and a lot of product later to achieve 10-14micron. Might be cheaper buying some lacquer and I'll spray it on when next in the garage.
> 
> Real question is:
> If we did achieve 10-14 micron would it really provide any real protection? They say 9h but this refers to a pencil hardness. We take this as impressive yet most of us have nothing to compare to. What is the actual hardness of ordinary lacquer? This highlights not only the question of the accuracy of the claims made by manufacturers but also the limited knowledge of the average consumers to not questions these factors. It is a market based on hype and branding. While this in theory is wrong I do appreciate it as it provides us so much choice and diversity.


Yep, how are we ever going to see 10-14 micron when even the directions say to use it sparingly and a thin layer is sufficient? This is deceit is it not?

Hardness is all hype too, I've even seen distributors and resellers call products 9H with no proof when even the product itself mentions no such claims. What you need is flexibility IMO. This is why some of the new factory clears are so hard to polish. Not because of the apparent hardness, but because of the flexibility of them.

At the end of the day, doesn't matter how thick and hard it is p), they'll still mark and contaminate which requires maintenance and upkeep, usually done around the year mark. So do you want something that will last a few years if you're lucky and keep on maintaining it every year, or something that will last a year or so and do it again every year for maximum looks? Still takes about the same effort. This is why I like to go on just looks alone. Any coating will provide great protection, much better than any regular wax or sealant, but some look a lot better than others. 

You soon learn that most products don't live up to the claims, which is why I tend to laugh at 'western marketing'. The Asians seem much more conservative, realistic, believable. Take this Asian coating. Would you ever see a UK brand market an 'up to 3 months' coating? Nope, they would just sell it for 5 x the price and say 'up to 2 years' haha!  And these guys do make for other well known *expensive* brands too.


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## e_king (Oct 11, 2012)

-Raven- said:


> You soon learn that most products don't live up to the claims, which is why I tend to laugh at 'western marketing'. The Asians seem much more conservative, realistic, believable. Take this Asian coating. Would you ever see a UK brand market an 'up to 3 months' coating? Nope, they would just sell it for 5 x the price and say 'up to 2 years' haha!  And these guys do make for other well known *expensive* brands too.


I think a western company would Choose Nano-X which is ~12 months protection as a complement to their permenent 9H Glasscoating. Maybe they´ll even have a nano maintenece coating spray and call that Sport?
Just a thaught.


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## -Raven- (Aug 26, 2010)

e_king said:


> I think a western company would Choose Nano-X which is ~12 months protection as a complement to their permenent 9H Glasscoating. Maybe they´ll even have a nano maintenece coating spray and call that Sport?
> Just a thaught.


hmmm, I don't know haha......

Maybe they should put their signature on this before somebody else does!


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## sm81 (May 14, 2011)

Raven: Your post is very informative and very truthfully. Like a raindrops in the desert. Top work there:thumb:


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## Otto (Feb 2, 2013)

-Raven- said:


> hmmm, I don't know haha......
> 
> Maybe they should put their signature on this before somebody else does!


So where can this sort of stuff be purchased from and at what kind of price?


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## steveo3002 (Jan 30, 2006)

Otto said:


> So where can this sort of stuff be purchased from and at what kind of price?


i was about to ask the same


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## Rascal_69 (Sep 20, 2009)

Bottle and boxes etc look all so similar to - ceramic pro


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## e_king (Oct 11, 2012)

-Raven- said:


> hmmm, I don't know haha......
> 
> Maybe they should put their signature on this before somebody else does!


But they did and it lasts a little longer now. :lol:
From the site










Hmm From the bottle










Nano-X also suffer from longer life in cyberspace.  That´s where I got ~12 months from.:thumb:


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## Flaffy_91 (Feb 24, 2012)

It's like anything in this world though. All companies lie about everything

Honestly there's not a single company out there that I will fully believe everything that they say
Detailing is one you have to be very wary of. There's that many companies offering this that and the other that lasts this long and that long. And it's all total bull poop. 
There's been plenty of companies and products that have been "outed" as being other peoples products. Rebranded as another product that will work this much better or for this much longer
The whole auto finnese thing (that I'm not going to get into) is a major example of this!


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## -Raven- (Aug 26, 2010)

Otto said:


> So where can this sort of stuff be purchased from and at what kind of price?


I got mine direct for cheap. Really cheap! :thumb:


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## caledonia (Sep 13, 2008)

Rascal_69 said:


> Bottle and boxes etc look all so similar to - ceramic pro


And the whole kit and caboodle come from Choose nanotech. Who are the original manufacturers. http://www.chooseint.com/index.php

Gordon.


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## -Raven- (Aug 26, 2010)

Flaffy_91 said:


> It's like anything in this world though. All companies lie about everything
> 
> Honestly there's not a single company out there that I will fully believe everything that they say
> Detailing is one you have to be very wary of. There's that many companies offering this that and the other that lasts this long and that long. And it's all total bull poop.
> ...


Yep, I agree.

This is why I buy my own products, test my own products, and form my own opinions. 

As I said before, look at the differences between the Western and Asian marketing. Of course us consumers are driving this cycle of BS though, wanting the holy grail etc, and more expensive must mean its better right?


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## Otto (Feb 2, 2013)

Product resellers must hate this type of thread!
I, on the other hand, love this sharing of knowledge making us all the better informed:thumb:


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## e_king (Oct 11, 2012)

You can also try the European distributor LIG Protec :thumb:


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