# Victoria Concours Wax



## Dave KG (Feb 23, 2006)

Finally a nice dry day to allow me to try out the Victoria Concours Wax. This wax is priced at nearly £30 for 6oz, which in terms of cost is putting it right into Pinnacle Souveran, Swissol Onyx and Zymol Carbon territory so to compete it would have to be very good indeed.

First up was my car - star silver, not the best colour to show off the potential of a wax but its always nice to see how a wax will perform on a lighter colour. The car was washed, and the wax applied over a four week old coat of 50/50. The was is quite a soft wax, and can be applied either by hand directly, or owing to the cold today, I opted for applicator pad. It is necessary owing to the softish composition of the wax to ensure you dont apply to much to the pad and cause it to clot, as you only need a thin layer of this wax.

The wax was applied to a panel, left a couple of minutes and then the residue buffed off with ease. On silver paint, I was hugely impressed with the results:







The paint took on a lovely wet and liquid like glow, a trait I have always associated with Pinnacle Souveran and the trait that made Souveran my personal favourite wax on silver paint - this style of finish appeals to me. However, in my eyes, the wettness and depth of gloss given by the Concours surpassed that of the Souveran wax, and the paint took on a glow that I have not seen from my sivler before. Both Bryan and I noticed this right away after the bonnet only was completed so we could compare to untrated panels. I have to say, I am hugely impressed with this wax and it is one I cant wait to try layering with as it promises better results still.  In my very own personal opinion, this is the best wax I have used on silver paint and will like be one of my waxes of choice from now on on my own car.

By contrast to silver, a darker colour such as dark blue really gives a show wax the opportunity to shine out at its best. So, Bryan's Signmum was next, wax applied same was as above. Results below:





On the darker colour, the Concours wax impressed yet again with the depth of shine that it delivered, and a very wet and glossy looking finish. This finish is right up there with Pinnacle Souveran on the darker colours as well, impressing with the depth of shine it delivered.

All in all, I am very impressed with this wax. Easy to apply and remove, and the finish is that of a more expensive wax, IMHO this particular wax is punching above its weight price wise. Durability is not yet tested by myself, but reports suggest it is also quite good (though not up with Collinite, but then this is a show wax we are looking at here so a fairer comparison durability wise would be Souveran/Onyx/Carbon...).

To round off, a couple of pics of the Krankies' cars, both treated to Concours and paint glowing nicely (yes, I know my car's plastic trim needs treated, but with another 1000+ miles on salty motorways ahead of it, that will wait until after....)


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## deej (Jun 18, 2006)

Another great write up Dave, looks a very nice finish too :thumb:


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## Rich (Oct 26, 2005)

Looks great on both colours, I am sure Tim is expecting me to grab a pot at any moment!


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## mzm70 (Jun 27, 2006)

Dave,
Can you PLEASE do a write up saying Product X is cr*p, then I won't have to buy it...................cars do look good thought.


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## Brazo (Oct 27, 2005)

Both cars amazing as ever!


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## Neil_S (Oct 26, 2005)

Lovely finish, especially on the Signum!


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## satnam (Oct 27, 2006)

Look great mate.. :thumb: your silver paint looks nice n wet 

Sat :thumb:


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## Dave KG (Feb 23, 2006)

mzm70 said:


> Dave,
> Can you PLEASE do a write up saying Product X is cr*p, then I won't have to buy it...................cars do look good thought.


T-Cut is awful stuff!


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## Epoch (Jul 30, 2006)

Good to see a side by side comparisson on two different colours. Nice write up Dave


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## vectra ed (Feb 4, 2006)

Yes very interesting, two nice lookings cars there.


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## gerry connelly (Nov 16, 2006)

Just got myself a tub of Victoria Concourse Wax this week so looking forward to similar results on my silver audi and my wife's dark blue Honda.
Nice write-up as usual Dave


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## Scotsbil (Nov 27, 2006)

Smashing write up and a top finish on both cars. Well done.


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## CK888 (Apr 23, 2006)

After reading AndyC and now yours I'm so tempted!


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## GlynRS2 (Jan 21, 2006)

Looks very nice indeed  

I don't need another wax......
I don't need another wax......
I don't need another wax......
I don't need another wax......
I don't need another wax......
I don't need another wax......
I don't need another wax......
I don't need another wax......
I don't need another wax......
I don't need another wax......

:wall:


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## vectra ed (Feb 4, 2006)

could you tell me the name,s of companies that sell the Victoria wax please.


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## Neil_S (Oct 26, 2005)

cleanyourcar mate


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## blr123 (Oct 26, 2005)

gerry connelly said:


> Just got myself a tub of Victoria Concourse Wax this week so looking forward to similar results on my silver audi and my wife's dark blue Honda.
> Nice write-up as usual Dave


This thread was made for you Gerry eh :thumb:

Well today was an excellent day, we got through a lot of work on both cars and a few tests aswell, both were looking very nice when finished 

Bryan


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## Bence (Dec 21, 2006)

David Wyllie Sr. knows the "-öl" formulas very well, and developed his waxes accordingly. The performance of the Victoria Waxes is right on par with the "-öl"s. However, David doesn't stick weird price tags on his waxes - which is a great thing. Affordability is just one point.

At a Chinese expo, Hungary was also an exhibitor. We have pretty high quality and hugely expensive china factories and of course, they were presented proudly there. According to the staff, when really wealthy Chinese came to look around their first question was: "What is the most expensive thing you have, because I want to buy it." No matter what it was, useful or not, they just wanted the most expensive thing for their well-being.
In this content, the pricing of the Victorias is even better, because it acts like a natural filter against such demographics and attitudes that I'm not finding likable - and I don't like to be associated with. Another important point for VW.


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## Dave KG (Feb 23, 2006)

An update here: my car has just had the third layer of this wax applied over the past few days, and now I am considering the car complete and ready totest the durabuility... With each applied layer, the depth of the gloss on the finish deepend and I am now left with a finish I am absolutely delighted with. The car has taken on a liquid gloss to the silver, which I have tried to photograph here. Its not the reflections in the paint, but the depth and the gloss that the paint gives off with this wax which most impresses me:











Now I'll just need to see how well the wax holds up. 

For anyone considering a new wax in the sub £50 region, that will deliver a beautiful finish, this would be the wax I would recommend. It punches well and truly above its weight price wise.


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## Neil_S (Oct 26, 2005)

Very nice Dave!


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## donnyboy (Oct 27, 2005)

Would you rate it better than the old favourite on your car....Souveran????


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## Dave KG (Feb 23, 2006)

donnyboy said:


> Would you rate it better than the old favourite on your car....Souveran????


Yes. :thumb: The finish is deeper IMO, and if its durability is better than Souveran its a clear winner in my eyes. Thats my own personal opinion of the wax though, the finish appeals to what I like best - depth, warmth, gloss.


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## Bence (Dec 21, 2006)

The second set of pictures clearly show the true potential of the VWCon! Excellent!!!


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## CleanYourCar (Jan 23, 2006)

Dave, you won't be dissapointed with durability either. I had this on the Audi for over 2 months and still had great beading. Amazing really with this such a 'show' wax.


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## GAZA62 (Jan 23, 2007)

Dave how long did you leave between each layer of Concours ?

Did you apply any QD before each layer or just wash the car.?


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## Dave KG (Feb 23, 2006)

GAZA62 said:


> Dave how long did you leave between each layer of Concours ?
> 
> Did you apply any QD before each layer or just wash the car.?


There was a few days left between each layer (owing to work commitments). So the car was just washed, and then waxed. I would leave at least 24 hours between layers.


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## ianFRST (Sep 19, 2006)

this one?

http://www.cleanyourcar.co.uk/shop/wax/victoria-wax-6oz-concours-wax/p_234.html

i was thinking about getting a zymol carbon starter kit thing, would you reccomend this instead dave 

cheers


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## Dave KG (Feb 23, 2006)

^^ Thats the wax. :thumb: 

I have only used the Carbon once so I couldn't possibly make a fair comparison with it, suffice to say that the Concours in my eyes punches well above its weight price wise, and I would highly recommend it to anyone who is looking for a very deep and glossy finish, decent durability and a fair price. This is one of the best products I have used this year.


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## ally_mac (Sep 20, 2006)

Looking good Dave, been thinking about buying a tub of this too try out

Whats the difference between the yellow wax and the red vax


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## maesal (Nov 24, 2005)

Superb results Dave !!


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## Dave KG (Feb 23, 2006)

ally_mac said:


> Looking good Dave, been thinking about buying a tub of this too try out
> 
> Whats the difference between the yellow wax and the red vax


The red Concours wax has a higher carnauba content than the yellow Collectors wax. Have yet to fully try out the Collectors, so not sure how they compare looks wise yet.


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## MikeTDI (Aug 2, 2006)

does this wax come with an applicator? if not which is best to apply this wax with?


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## Dave KG (Feb 23, 2006)

The wax does not come with an applicator, but if you want to use an applicator then a simple foam applicator (small round yellow Meguiars ones for example) would be perfectly suitable. You are actually advised to apply the wax directly by palms of your hand or finger tips (melt wax and apply using you hands directly), but it can be effectively applied by applicator as well.


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## CleanYourCar (Jan 23, 2006)

The victoria Wax is best when applied by hand the wax mixture is in its proper concentration straight from the tub. When you use an applicator the wax could be diluted slightly by absorbing the carrier solvent.

and taken from information he sent me:

' With the higher wax content used and the final look preserved, an easier application and buffing technique was needed. That dilemma was solved by applying the wax with the bare hands, using the warmth of the hands to spread and massage in a very thin coating of wax. Applying to small sections and massaging in the wax started the bonding process quicker with an instant layer of protection, the bare hands acted as the first catalysis of bonding to the surface. And eventually to a full curing by exposure to the air.'

I should add though that I have used it using a foam applicator pad and this seemed to work very well.


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## ally_mac (Sep 20, 2006)

Sorry if this is a stupid question, but do you mean you dip your hand into the tub and put on on the paintwork with your hands and not a applicator pad


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## Dave KG (Feb 23, 2006)

ally_mac said:


> Sorry if this is a stupid question, but do you mean you dip your hand into the tub and put on on the paintwork with your hands and not a applicator pad


Yep, scrape out a pea sized amount of wax into the palms of your hands, melt the wax in your hands and apply directly to the paint... Sounds strange at first but it does work well.


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## ally_mac (Sep 20, 2006)

Dave KG said:


> Yep, scrape out a pea sized amount of wax into the palms of your hands, melt the wax in your hands and apply directly to the paint... Sounds strange at first but it does work well.


Ok must try this when the wax arrives, just sounds very strange, though it would sprayed better using a pad rather than your bare hand


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## Ant GTI-6 (Nov 30, 2005)

Take your rings, watches off first:thumb: 

Be sure to have prestine clean hands too.

It's a rather odd experience but does work well, you soon start to feel at one with your car .


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## GAZA62 (Jan 23, 2007)

Would you need to have smooth skin on your hands only mine are very rough and dry plus i have a disability in my left arm which would mean all the wax on the left hand would not get used


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## Dave KG (Feb 23, 2006)

GAZA62 said:


> Would you need to have smooth skin on your hands only mine are very rough and dry plus i have a disability in my left arm which would mean all the wax on the left hand would not get used


I too have quite rough skin on my hands, I use moisturiser before I know I'm applying a wax by hand to soften them up (Neutrogena), also use this when dancing so my partners cannot complain at the skin on my hands!! :lol: :lol:

Regarding the left hand, what I would do is instead of using the palms of your hands, just use your right hand and get some wax on you finger tips and apply with the finger tips.


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## GAZA62 (Jan 23, 2007)

> Regarding the left hand, what I would do is instead of using the palms of your hands, just use your right hand and get some wax on you finger tips and apply with the finger tips.
> __________________


 Dave when applying with finger tips do you use the same method as normall small circular motions followed by left to right passes to get even cover.

Thanks

GAZ


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## Dave KG (Feb 23, 2006)

GAZA62 said:


> Dave when applying with finger tips do you use the same method as normall small circular motions followed by left to right passes to get even cover.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> GAZ


Yep - small circles to spread the wax about, then straight lines in a cross hatch pattern across the area and that ensures all areas are covered.


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## ianFRST (Sep 19, 2006)

dave dave dave, i wish you'd stop reccomending things  :wall: :lol: 

just placed my order for some with CYC :thumb: is there a quide to applying wax by hand, ive always used a foam applicator


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## Summit Detailing (Oct 9, 2006)

massage the car like you would your woman


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## bobbyraven (Sep 18, 2006)

Dave, how would you rate it next to 50/50??

:thumb:


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## Autovogue (Oct 1, 2006)

well just played with this on a scrap panel as its raining and it leaves a stunning finish, warm and deep with a nice shine. Can not wait to see it properly in the sun.

I'm going to go put some 50/50 on to compare. :thumb: <runs off to go find 50/50>


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## Autovogue (Oct 1, 2006)

<runs back> the Victoria Concours Wax has a definate edge over the 50/50, its gives a deeper, richer finish, I'm very impressed so far especially for the price, Can not wait to do a full car with it.


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## Dave KG (Feb 23, 2006)

bobbyraven said:


> Dave, how would you rate it next to 50/50??
> 
> :thumb:


I find the finish left by the concours is a deeper gloss than the 50/50... The 50/50 wax is good for sure, but for me, the Concours has the edge. :thumb:


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## Dave KG (Feb 23, 2006)

baz said:


> <runs back> the Victoria Concours Wax has a definate edge over the 50/50, its gives a deeper, richer finish, I'm very impressed so far especially for the price, Can not wait to do a full car with it.


Glad to hear you like the wax - its not just me thats enjoying it! :thumb:


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## Autovogue (Oct 1, 2006)

Dave KG said:


> Glad to hear you like the wax - its not just me thats enjoying it! :thumb:


its a good job i do, all your talk of it made me buy it :lol:


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## Mr OCD (Apr 18, 2006)

How would you compare VCW to something like Zymol / Swissol?


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## Autovogue (Oct 1, 2006)

thats something id like to do but don't have any:lol: , id certainly like to compare to Swissol best of show.


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## ianFRST (Sep 19, 2006)

baz said:


> its a good job i do, all your talk of it made me buy it :lol:


haha, same :lol:

i anyboy wants a product, give it to dave to try, and let him inform all of us :lol:


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## Dave KG (Feb 23, 2006)

I have the Best of Show... And the finish from the Best of Show I would say is wetter than that from the Concours, yet still has comparable depth. IMVHO, BoS is a slightly better finish, but then it damn well should be given how much more expensive it is! And when we get into these kind of details, its really going to come down to personal preference in finish above all else.


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## Dave KG (Feb 23, 2006)

Engine_Swap said:


> How would you compare VCW to something like Zymol / Swissol?


IMVHO, the Concours is competitive against these brands - at least the lower to middle range waxes in these brands, I cannot comment on the higher end Zymol and Swissol, I cant afford near on £2k for a pot of wax, though I certainly would like to be able to!!

It will give Zymol Concours a damn good run for its money in terms of depth of gloss and wettness in the shine (again, my opinion and in my eyes), and run Best of Show mighty close as well...

I have to say, I've said it already, but as a product, I haven't been this impressed in a very long time. There are many excellent products coming onto the market these days, that do perform very well and push results further forward, but there is just something for me with this product that makes it stand out for me.


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## Autovogue (Oct 1, 2006)

DaveKG has made a post thats, NOT going to cost me money:lol: :lol: :lol:


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## bobbyraven (Sep 18, 2006)

oh oh, I feel a purchase coming on.....

Super quick response Baz - thanks a lot. And of course Dave for the excellent review - you've just cost me though!!

:thumb:


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## Autovogue (Oct 1, 2006)

bobbyraven said:


> oh oh, I feel a purchase coming on.....
> 
> Super quick response Baz - thanks a lot. And of course Dave for the excellent review - you've just cost me though!!
> 
> :thumb:


i think i can safely say you wont be disappointed with it. :thumb:


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## bobbyraven (Sep 18, 2006)

baz said:


> i think i can safely say you wont be disappointed with it. :thumb:


I gave in to the pressure Baz (like I really need more wax). Looking forward to trying it. Cheers, BR :thumb:


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## ianFRST (Sep 19, 2006)

i tried it on my door earlier 

i couldnt get along with putting a pea size amount in the palm of your hand tho.....

how i did it was, make a fist, so it warms up your finger tips, hold the jar of VCW in your left hand, then place your thumb in the palm of your right hand, and the 4 fingers into the pot of wax. move slightly in the pot, and it gets a decent amount on your 4 fingers, and then run this into the paint


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## bobbyraven (Sep 18, 2006)

ianFRST said:


> i tried it on my door earlier
> 
> i couldnt get along with putting a pea size amount in the palm of your hand tho.....
> 
> how i did it was, make a fist, so it warms up your finger tips, hold the jar of VCW in your left hand, then place your thumb in the palm of your right hand, and the 4 fingers into the pot of wax. move slightly in the pot, and it gets a decent amount on your 4 fingers, and then run this into the paint


nice tip Ian, the bare hand application is a puzzler. I understand the benefits but just wasn't sure practically how best to work it.

:thumb:


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## CleanYourCar (Jan 23, 2006)

I was sent some more information on the reason why paste waxes benefit from hand application where possible:

"Applying wax with the bare hands is not a new technique, it was used in the 60's, and I suspect that it had been used by people at sometime or another over the last 100 years. It just produces the best possible look and protection. Wax is at its very best when the wax from the original jar or tin is in that same concentrations. The hands are non-porous and no carrier solvents will be absorbed. What is in the jar or tin is now in the proper concentrations on the finish.

Bare hand waxing will benefit any wax-based product by any manufacture. In the right hands it could make the difference between a good job and an excellent job. If you are like me, waxing the finish is the final step and the most rewarding. One coat of wax is not enough and ten coats seems reasonable. We are all guilty of over using wax applicators to the point that we have to wring out the liquid solvent collected every once in a while to continue getting a good mix. And most of us seal the moist wax applicator back in the jar or tin to be ready for the next round of waxing. I am not saying that any one particular technique is for everyone, I just know what I like and find rewarding. If you wish to use a wax applicator, keep a few extra on hand so the wax is applied full strength and not diluted with the carrier solvent.

Too much carrier solvent in an applicator pad could easily remove some of the wax as well. Massaging in and spreading thinly by the bare hands has its benefits too. You could do a test right now, you must have a high-end wax in your collection of car care products. Just use the finger tips first to apply a small amount to the driver's front top fender. Work it in and massage it around, let it stand. Slowly you will see a large amount of wax attaching to the surface. 1000s of small specks of carnauba and other waxes depending on the manufacture's formula. Buff with a clean towel and repeat in a few minutes.

A major bonus to many of the waxes coming to market in the last few year is the use of extremely low (VOC) volatile organic content solvents, many of these solvents are used in the skin care industry and have been adapted with a multitude of different high boiling points and KB ratings. In other words don't bare hand a wax that is stinky."


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## Craig1980 (Jun 24, 2006)

I just got my Victoria wax this morning, thanks Tim. Even though the postie just left it sitting on my front door(second time that's happened). I must be quite sad, but I'm REALLY looking forward to trying this out on my car, might even give the hand application a try.


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## Neil_S (Oct 26, 2005)

CleanYourCar said:


> ...The hands are non-porous and no carrier solvents will be absorbed.


If i use a moisturiser, my hands absorb that so how can that statement be true?

To be honest I doubt very much that I would hand apply any wax that didn't specifically say to do it in that manner. I don't think I would want my hands exposed to solvents used in waxes such as Collinite for prolonged periods of time.


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## Dave KG (Feb 23, 2006)

Neil_S said:


> If i use a moisturiser, my hands absorb that so how can that statement be true?
> 
> To be honest I doubt very much that I would hand apply any wax that didn't specifically say to do it in that manner. I don't think I would want my hands exposed to solvents used in waxes such as Collinite for prolonged periods of time.


IIRC, the solvents used in the Victoria waxes are derived from the cosmetics industry, thus safe for direct skin contact...  The wax does say on the jar in the instruction to apply it directly by hand, so the solvents must be safe. :thumb:


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## Neil_S (Oct 26, 2005)

Dave KG said:


> IIRC, the solvents used in the Victoria waxes are derived from the cosmetics industry, thus safe for direct skin contact...  The wax does say on the jar in the instruction to apply it directly by hand, so the solvents must be safe. :thumb:


Yep, no problem with Victoria Wax, as they say to apply by hand so I should hope they have thought about the impact on your hands!

It's just the statement about hand application benefitting all waxes, not sure I would want to try with some of the waxes that have some pretty strong solvents in them.


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## Reevie (Dec 13, 2006)

Dave you have a lot to answer for ---just ordered my Vic wax today---i hope you are on commission :lol: :lol: :lol: ---- i bet Tim is rubbing his hands (probably with vic wax) :lol: :lol: :lol: 

will post up when i get chance to use it


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## ianFRST (Sep 19, 2006)

the only problem ive found so far, is trying to wash it off :lol:

its even easier to apply with hands than with a foam pad imo


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## Dave KG (Feb 23, 2006)

Reevie said:


> Dave you have a lot to answer for ---just ordered my Vic wax today---i hope you are on commission :lol: :lol: :lol: ---- i bet Tim is rubbing his hands (probably with vic wax) :lol: :lol: :lol:
> 
> will post up when i get chance to use it


Look forward to hearing your thoughts on this wax, I'm confident you'll like it. :thumb:


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## bobbyraven (Sep 18, 2006)

Got a chance to apply some today following yesterday's delivery!

I actually found the application by hand fairly rewarding - can't say I've ever been that intimate with my car before (at one point found myself muttering sweet nothings to her...). It will be the final straw for my neighbours - I'm expecting the men in white coats at any time.

I managed to apply it fairly thinly - it did surprise me however that it felt a little grainy at times? anyone else feel the same?? 

Buffed off pretty easy with a decent Sonus cloth. Finish looked pretty deep. Not particularly wet looking but certainly glossy. Unfortunately it was getting dark by the time I finished so can't say too much more on the finish at the moment. To be fair, the car does need a decent polish with the PC but on initial impressions I'm pretty happy! Looking forward to using it after a full detail.

BR :thumb:


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## Dave KG (Feb 23, 2006)

Glad to hear good initial impressions of the wax, give it a shot after a full detail. :thumb: 

Haven't personally found the wax grainy yet, but other may well have...


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## bobbyraven (Sep 18, 2006)

..not sure if it was the temperature Dave? was fairly cold today. My fingers were raw by the time I finished....


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## Dave KG (Feb 23, 2006)

bobbyraven said:


> ..not sure if it was the temperature Dave? was fairly cold today. My fingers were raw by the time I finished....


May well have been it, and the wax clumping slightly... Oh my neighbours think I've well and truly lost it with the hand applied waxes these days!! :lol:


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## bobbyraven (Sep 18, 2006)

Managed a quick pic....


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## maesal (Nov 24, 2005)

bobbyraven said:


> Managed a quick pic....


It looks superb !!


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## BIG BAVARIAN (May 7, 2006)

that looks like glass ^^^^ :thumb: :thumb:


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## bigal76 (Aug 15, 2006)

bobbyraven said:


> I managed to apply it fairly thinly - it did surprise me however that it felt a little grainy at times? anyone else feel the same??
> 
> BR :thumb:


Hi - yeah, mine felt that little bit grainy as I scooped it out of the jar. Now I know this is a strange analogy, but you'd imagine the texture would be like running your finger across a mango, but it was a bit like running your finger across watermelon. Maybe it was the smell that was playing with my brain. :lol:

Anyway - the grain went straight away once I'd warmed it in my hands, and didn't feel grainy as I applied it to the paint. Temp was at or below 7 C at the time, so as you say, perhaps it was the temperature to begin with.


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## Reevie (Dec 13, 2006)

Dave KG said:


> Look forward to hearing your thoughts on this wax, I'm confident you'll like it. :thumb:


 Absolutely Brilliant tried it on my Black ZZR1100 petrol tank you can dive in to the depth (took piccies but didnt turn out very will so will take some more at the weekend) bit alien putting on by hand but smoothed on really well and great to buff off.

As directions suggest i am going to put another two coats on so will take pics again.

Thanks for the quick delivery Tim :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:


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## Dave KG (Feb 23, 2006)

bobbyraven said:


> Managed a quick pic....


That looks brilliant! Lovely glossy finish on the paint there. :thumb:


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## Dave KG (Feb 23, 2006)

Reevie said:


> Absolutely Brilliant tried it on my Black ZZR1100 petrol tank you can dive in to the depth (took piccies but didnt turn out very will so will take some more at the weekend) bit alien putting on by hand but smoothed on really well and great to buff off.
> 
> As directions suggest i am going to put another two coats on so will take pics again.
> 
> Thanks for the quick delivery Tim :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:


Glad to hear it! :thumb: Look forward to seeing the pics.


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## A20 LEE (Feb 20, 2007)

just banged a coat on the S3. Applied using hands, difficult at first to get the wax to spread on the car but once on, you can even it out very easily. Snowing at the minute so really its a collinite day but was keen to see if the Victoria make an improvement. I'll get pics up once i find that damn camera...


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## ahaydock (Jan 4, 2007)

Good one mate, look forward to the pics. I have just ordered some so looking forward to trying it.


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## Bulla2000 (Jun 5, 2007)

Great job and description. Thanks Dave.


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