# DI vessel life



## Imperialjim (Aug 19, 2013)

What lifespan are you getting from your DI vessels?

I have recently bought a 11L with MB115. I have used it only as a final rinse stage 4 times and the readings are already starting to creep up to between 10-70ppm (it was 0ppm beforehand) depending on how quickly I put the water through.

I understand that it is all highly dependant on the water in my area (~400ppm) and how much I use it, but would've expected more than 4 rinses out of it?!


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## LeeH (Jan 29, 2006)

Connect it in reverse and flush it through. 

Keep the flow low and be frugal. 




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## Imperialjim (Aug 19, 2013)

Tried that along with rolling it to mix up the resin. Didn't help much.

Based on reading older threads I would've expected more than 4 last stage rinses though?


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## LeeH (Jan 29, 2006)

Yes, I have around 350 ppm down to 5 ppm and have done quite a few. But I don’t keep count. 

I do use a dedicated hose so get no losses swapping hoses. Not that explains your 4 washes. 


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## RaceGlazer (Jan 10, 2007)

Several reasons:
1. Is it connected the right way round? The black head is moulded with IN and OUT.
2. How long does it run per rinse ? You should be able to do an average car in a minute.
3. Is the pipe inside a snug fit ? Is it cracked ? Is it in situ even ?
4. Is the vessel full of resin?

If your readings are that variable, then whatever you are measuring it in (cup, glass?) probably has some tap water residue in it. Giving it a good rinse out with filter output water first should give consistent figures.

The dumpier 11L vessels are not as efficient as taller thinner ones like our 7L one (and even more efficient 14L vessel) but you should do better than that. Your supplier should help you on this, we always get to the bottom of any issues for our customers.


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## Imperialjim (Aug 19, 2013)

Thanks for the response Mark (this isn't one of yours as you've probably surmised based on the size).



> 1. Is it connected the right way round? The black head is moulded with IN and OUT.


 Yes, I checked this and tried the backswill trick. I dissembled the head and the inlet goes into an outer cavity that feeds into the top of the vessel, the OUT pulls up through the tube in the centre.



> 2. How long does it run per rinse ? You should be able to do an average car in a minute.


I used it longer than normal I would say, but even if I went pessimistic and equated it to 8 'normal' rinses seems a pretty poor return.



> 3. Is the pipe inside a snug fit ? Is it cracked ? Is it in situ even ?


 Pipe seems to be snug in its seat in the head, I did get slightly improved readings after I took it apart and then back together again. I can't see any cracks but didn't actually test for them, I will do tonight.



> 4. Is the vessel full of resin?


 No, when I opened it up and took out the head and tube I'd say it was only 2/3 full of resin (full with water at the time). Dissappointing.



> If your readings are that variable, then whatever you are measuring it in (cup, glass?) probably has some tap water residue in it. Giving it a good rinse out with filter output water first should give consistent figures.


 That reading variation is dependent on how quickly I run water through it; at almost a trickle it gets down to 10ppm, at tap fully open it goes up to 60ppm.



> The dumpier 11L vessels are not as efficient as taller thinner ones like our 7L one (and even more efficient 14L vessel) but you should do better than that. Your supplier should help you on this, we always get to the bottom of any issues for our customers.


 I'm in contact with the supplier, their responses have been a bit average so far, they are basically saying that the resin has expired (possible) or that it is "damaged" as I ran water through too fast (I don't buy this as I haven't even used a PW). They did suggest checking the tube is seated correctly though. I'm going to write up what I've said above and see what they say.


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## RaceGlazer (Jan 10, 2007)

Far be it for me to comment on another suppliers customer support, but as you're not receiving much, here goes:
The vessel is underfilled by rather a lot. 
The flow rate wont make any difference to media performance at normal mains pressure.
The tube should fit snugly into the bottom locator which sits on the base of the vessel, and poke no more than 1cm proud of the rim of the vessel with the top off. 

Resin may have expired but I think that's rather doubtful, assuming it was good resin in the first place. Good luck with your helpful supplier.


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## DLGWRX02 (Apr 6, 2010)

I have a 15.4lt vessel, I get between 15 and 18 months between resin refills. And it gets frequent use for final rinse and washer bottle refilling etc. My water pre filter is around 340 ppm. Biggest giveaway at spent resin is when it starts to smell really fishy.


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## Peter_222 (Jun 24, 2015)

I’ve a similar 11litre vessel. My ppm is between 200 - 250. I’ve stopped using it straight from the tap as it doesn’t last at all. I now fill up an IBC tank. Recently I’ve 2/3 filled my vessel and got just over 500 litres from the resin at an extremely slow flow rate. After 100 litres the ppm started to go up and it took a lot of watching and rolling to keep it less than 5. 

For info I’m pretty sure there’s a lot more to it than mere ppm total and trying to calculate the litres you get from your base ppm level just doesn’t work. 

But 4 rinses even if you were using 20 litres a rinse does seem excessive for resin to be completely shot. I’ve seen my ppm number stick at 50 then I’ve left it a day and tried again and it’s back at 2 for another 150 litres if I keep the flow rate down. 

If I put my tap on full the ppm shoots up so definitely keep the flow rate very low. 


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## fatdazza (Dec 29, 2010)

Despite what other have posted, flow rate is VERY important.

The ion exchange resins work on contact time with the water. The longer the contact time, the better the efficiency of the DI vessel.

Slower flows will produce better results (until of course the resin is fully exhausted, by giving up all its ions in the ion exchange transfer process).


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## RaceGlazer (Jan 10, 2007)

Agreed with the above on flow rate - which is why a tall thin vessel is more efficient than a short fat one.
Normal mains pressure should be OK for good performance but a slower rate and water will seep though the whole bed under gravity rather than taking the easiest route and creating channels if pushed.
Either way, the OPs vessel has underpeformed


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## Peter_222 (Jun 24, 2015)

RaceGlazer said:


> Agreed with the above on flow rate - which is why a tall thin vessel is more efficient than a short fat one.
> Normal mains pressure should be OK for good performance but a slower rate and water will seep though the whole bed under gravity rather than taking the easiest route and creating channels if pushed.
> Either way, the OPs vessel has underpeformed


Can you explain why the tall thin vessels are more efficient and how this is proven??

I'd be interested in purchasing another vessel.

Thanks

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## RaceGlazer (Jan 10, 2007)

Hi

Its all here: http://www.raceglaze.co.uk/car-care...-filters/car-wash-water-filter-14-litre-tall/

regards


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## Imperialjim (Aug 19, 2013)

I'm not really getting anywhere with the supplier, they state that they can't guarantee life as it is variable based on original water, flow rate etc. which is fair enough. Despite that they don't really seem that interested in helping me, as I still think that the life has not been acceptable and I'm not happy whatever the reason.

I also am not convinced the vessel was properly filled, response was "...fill it to where the body of the vessel starts to curve inwards towards the neck, this is to allow sufficient room for water to circulate correctly. When water has entered the vessel, this will cause the resin to sink towards the bottom of it." It may well sink, but I'm struggling to believe it sinks to around 2/3 height of the vessel when filled with water. Does that seem reasonable?

Anyway, I plan to get some new resin (easier said than done, is there some sort of worldwide shortage? loads of places are sold out) and try again, which should determine whether the vessel is faulty or the resin had expired.


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## Peter_222 (Jun 24, 2015)

RaceGlazer said:


> Hi
> 
> Its all here: http://www.raceglaze.co.uk/car-care...-filters/car-wash-water-filter-14-litre-tall/
> 
> regards


I'm playing devils advocate here but is there any independent anecdotal evidence that backs up your results??

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## Peter_222 (Jun 24, 2015)

Peter_222 said:


> I'm playing devils advocate here but is there any independent anecdotal evidence that backs up your results??
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Non anecdotal it should state 

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## RaceGlazer (Jan 10, 2007)

Our results are based on tests carried out by a water industry veteran of 20 years standing.

Basically he set up the test by taking a new vessel of each of the 3 sizes we offer and running the water through with a digital flow meter. The location of the test was Hitchin as stated.

Its a fair question, and you're right to ask it, but I'd like to think our reputation would suggest that these are genuine results. I like to sleep at night (without a horses head in my bed!).


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## RaceGlazer (Jan 10, 2007)

Imperialjim - you are right to be sceptical..we fill them right up and as resin settles it may well fall to the curve of the vessel, so initial allowance should be made for that.

Here are shots of a filter I pulled out of stock at random just now. There's not even 5cm between the top of the resin and the rim.


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## fatdazza (Dec 29, 2010)

RaceGlazer said:


> Our results are based on tests carried out by a water industry veteran of 20 years standing.
> 
> Basically he set up the test by taking a new vessel of each of the 3 sizes we offer and running the water through with a digital flow meter. The location of the test was Hitchin as stated.
> 
> Its a fair question, and you're right to ask it, but I'd like to think our reputation would suggest that these are genuine results. I like to sleep at night (without a horses head in my bed!).


To be fair, as I understand it, your test kept the vessels static and passed water through them, until "breakthrough" occurred (i.e. dissolved solids ppm of the output rose).

However, a set volume of resin, has a set amount of ions available for exchange. That is irrespective of the aspect ratio of the vessel.

If properly mixed (e.g. through rolling of the vessel) the amount of dissolved solids that can be removed by each litre of resin is the same, no matter what the aspect ratio of the vessel.

What your test shows is that a taller, thinner vessel is less likely to create short circuit pathways and therefore requires less mixing of the resin.


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## RaceGlazer (Jan 10, 2007)

In principle you are correct in that if you roll the vessel around and ensure the resin is mixed up, but I’m not sure that many customers would want to do that, they just want stuff to work to the best of its abilities. And yes, a set amount of resin will have the same capacity for exchanging ions, IF all the resin is exposed to the water passing through it.

This is where the aspect ratio takes over. With a taller thinner vessel, and what will in effect be a low flow rate for this size of vessel, a shorter dumpier vessel is unlikely to get water to the extremities of the vessel thereby wasting the resin and getting breakthrough earlier, unless you roll it around. Personally, I like stuff that just works without any faff. You could say, well why don’t you use a longer thinner “tube” like a fat hosepipe, then you don’t get a decent capacity unless the unit is 6’ long!!!

I’d say you can extend the resin life with rolling of a shorter dumpier vessel, but this could be described as haphazard at best.


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## Peter_222 (Jun 24, 2015)

RaceGlazer said:


> In principle you are correct in that if you roll the vessel around and ensure the resin is mixed up, but I'm not sure that many customers would want to do that, they just want stuff to work to the best of its abilities. And yes, a set amount of resin will have the same capacity for exchanging ions, IF all the resin is exposed to the water passing through it.
> 
> This is where the aspect ratio takes over. With a taller thinner vessel, and what will in effect be a low flow rate for this size of vessel, a shorter dumpier vessel is unlikely to get water to the extremities of the vessel thereby wasting the resin and getting breakthrough earlier, unless you roll it around. Personally, I like stuff that just works without any faff. You could say, well why don't you use a longer thinner "tube" like a fat hosepipe, then you don't get a decent capacity unless the unit is 6' long!!!
> 
> I'd say you can extend the resin life with rolling of a shorter dumpier vessel, but this could be described as haphazard at best.


I'm very glad this has been clarified. I understand there are people who don't want the hassle of rolling the vessel to get the full capacity from the resin and for this reason the race glaze vessels do offer great impact ratio.

I've already got the 11litre vessel and am well used to getting the optimum out of it. I think the cost effectiveness of what I've got even with the added annoyance of rolling it more often does outweigh that of the Raceglaze.

But I do appreciate your input and knowledge on the subject.

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## gibee (Jul 5, 2013)

Imperialjim said:


> I'm not really getting anywhere with the supplier, they state that they can't guarantee life as it is variable based on original water, flow rate etc. which is fair enough. Despite that they don't really seem that interested in helping me, as I still think that the life has not been acceptable and I'm not happy whatever the reason.
> 
> I also am not convinced the vessel was properly filled, response was "...fill it to where the body of the vessel starts to curve inwards towards the neck, this is to allow sufficient room for water to circulate correctly. When water has entered the vessel, this will cause the resin to sink towards the bottom of it." It may well sink, but I'm struggling to believe it sinks to around 2/3 height of the vessel when filled with water. Does that seem reasonable?
> 
> Anyway, I plan to get some new resin (easier said than done, is there some sort of worldwide shortage? loads of places are sold out) and try again, which should determine whether the vessel is faulty or the resin had expired.


I think i've been making that mistake for years, filling close to the top. I got a lot more ltrs (near double) out of the last fill when filling it to the start of the curve.


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## Imperialjim (Aug 19, 2013)

Its pretty hard to photograph inside the vessel but attached is my attempt. I'd drained most of the water out, compare this to the photos Mark took I think it's fair to say this is underfilled, which would go someway to explain the poor life. I am of the opinion that it is not "...fill it to where the body of the vessel starts to curve inwards towards the neck..." as described by the supplier.


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## RaceGlazer (Jan 10, 2007)

It might show on my picture that I inserted a ruler with its base at the top of the resin and it was 5cm to the rim. I suspect your measurement would be more like 15cm ?


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## Imperialjim (Aug 19, 2013)

I hate it when people ask a question and don't give the outcome... my bad.

I purchased some new resin and refilled the vessel and all is good.

The resin must have expired, I am of the opinion that the vessel was underfilled which lead to the short life so am not pleased with the supplier. I understand their stance of there are too many variables to accurately predict resin life, but I'm still an unhappy customer and that didn't seem to bother them.

Time will tell if the resin was decent or not, as I've already used the new resin nearly as much as the old and still at 0ppm.


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