# Which car next?



## stealthwolf (Sep 24, 2008)

I've had my MK5 Golf GTI Edition 30 for 11 years now. I love it to bits, I've modded it as discreetly as possible, and it's been serviced every six months. It was my first major purchase after I started working (I had a Ford fiesta rust bucket runabout that my parents bought me). It was detailed weekly until I got married (about 4-5 years ago) and now gets washed once every two months.

But it's getting on a bit (110k miles done) and I'm getting that itch for something new. SWMBO is keen for me to get something less boy-racerish and more gentlemanly (I'm only 36!). I test drove the MK7 Golf GTI and it felt plasticky, and light, but otherwise the same. Nothing special. No wow factor. I had planned on buying the MK7 Golf R but thanks to VW and their PCP deals, every man and his dog has one.

Most of people drive Audi, BMW, Mercedes where I live. All looking very monotonous.

What I love about my Golf GTI:

 fast when I put my foot down (280bhp)
 modded suspension and brakes so goes well round corners
 5 door so easy enough to take family around
 hatchback so easy to chuck stuff in the boot to take to the tip
 swish looks (to me any way - I still think it stands out and looks smart compared to most of the other motors on the road
 I'm spending £150/month max for servicing, road tax, insurance. It's passed every MOT going. I've had one breakdown when the check engine light came on (turned out to be a fuel pressure sensor that went kaput and was replaced under warranty)

What I dislike about my Golf GTI:

 manual - I do love it, especially when driving hard on a dry clear road around country lanes but I know semi-auto/DSG is the way forward
 old-fashioned tech - no heads up display, automatic cruise control, steering wheel controls or anything else fancy. It has a satnav, reversing camera and bluetooth.
 because I've kept it well serviced, I've not had breakdowns. But it's also cost me more to keep things running as opposed to just an annual service and swap the car when it got more expensive.

I had planned to get rid of the car years ago but I loved it too much. Every time I think of changing, I can't imagine driving anything else. It just ticks too many boxes.

I'm after suggestions so I can start looking at what to buy.


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

What's the budget? 

The M140i is a bit more grown up than the other 5 door hatches. It will also be a lot faster than the 280bhp Golf, has good in car tech options and the autobox is sweet. 

It falls into the same category as the Golf R. Every man and his dog has one. They are instantly starting off in the wrong hands due to cheap PCP deals.


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## andy665 (Nov 1, 2005)

As Kerr has said an M140i would fit the bill very well, possibly a Leon Cupra which is certainly a little less common and if you went for the ST DSG then you get the surefootedness of AWD as well

Probably some good deals going on the remaining 340i / 335d's as well at the moment

A lot depends on budget


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## percymon (Jun 27, 2007)

Audi S3 Sportback ? Maybe not too tech laden but a little less boy racer than the Golf, well its a little more subtle anyway 

Skoda Octavia - at least its not blending into the BMW Audi Merc crowd

BMW X2 - bit more family wagon, but the higher end ones are pretty peppy - won;t exactly handle on rails though.


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## Soul boy 68 (Sep 8, 2013)

Hyundai I30N ? I don't think its boy racers car so to speak, it looks grown up and it's been well received. Or maybe Peugeot 308 GT. these two cars are not exactly common are they?:car:


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## mar00 (Jun 24, 2018)

I'm in a similar position I was going to replace my daily driver TTS with a S3 end of last year but after driving a couple i came to same conclusion as Golf feels cheap and poor materials and DSG gearbox is still way too slow when pressing on a bit, so it will be a M140i or maybe M240i as don't need the hatch anymore, or depending on brexit an M2 , better auto box and feels much better than the VAG cars,


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## robertdon777 (Nov 3, 2005)

Kerr is correct

The only well priced hatch that will feel like an upgrade is the M140i

and then the Cupra LEON, but may feel too similar to the Golf.

or to throw a curveball.

A BMW i3... I was shocked how fast these things feel, and peanuts to run. They won't corner like the GTi though thanks to the skinny tyres, but that's part of the fun. The tech in them makes them interesting like no other hatch.


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## AndyN01 (Feb 16, 2016)

No one suggesting something built in the UK - just thinking about what's all over the news at the moment ?

How about a Civic (built in Swindon)

Or an Auris (built in Derbyshire)

Or a MINI (built in Cowley)

Or something a bit different - an Infifniti Q30 (built in Sunderland).

Or and Astra (built in Ellesmere Port)

Or something actually Japanese....

A Mazda 3 - there may well be some good deals as I believe there's an new version arriving soon. I doubt you'll have many problems based on my experience.

Or a Subaru - 5 year/100K warranty

And for warranty there's obviously Kia/Hyundai.

Even Alfa are offering 5 years warranty......Personally I wouldn't touch one but that's because of my history with Italian cars. 

Sorry, that doesn't really slim down the possibilities but keeps you away from the "monotonous" Audi/BMW/Merc group.

Good luck with your search. 

Andy.


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

AndyN01 said:


> No one suggesting something built in the UK - just thinking about what's all over the news at the moment ?
> 
> How about a Civic (built in Swindon)
> 
> ...


The German cars might seem monotonous to you, but the OP has drawn up his criteria and trying to tick all boxes will probably end up at the same conclusion. German.

If A Golf doesn't pass the boy racer image then a Civic Type R most certainly won't. It's manual only and the in car tech is awful.

Is there a fast Aurus? Same with Mazda 3.

The Mini is a bit small and the 5 door is really ugly. It's also slower. It's still very much German influenced and popular in its class

Performance Subarus have died a death as they are too old school. Drive nowhere near as good, nowhere near as fast, very high emissions with big road tax bill and dreadful fuel economy. They are outdated.

The hot Hyundai/Kia can't tick the performance box and in can tech miles behind BMW's idrive.

Even you won't touch an Alfa. I can't even think where the nearest Alfa dealer is to me.

The Germans seem to get more things right than anyone else. They make the things that people want and desire.

Often depreciation is less too. It can cost less to own a more expensive German car. Buying an alternative usually means some form of compromise and can cost more.


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## Soul boy 68 (Sep 8, 2013)

Kerr said:


> The German cars might seem monotonous to you, but the OP has drawn up his criteria and trying to tick all boxes will probably end up at the same conclusion. German.
> 
> If A Golf doesn't pass the boy racer image then a Civic Type R most certainly won't. It's manual only and the in car tech is awful.
> 
> ...


I agree with what you said, I suggested Hyundai and Peugeot as they are two very different cars and not as common on our roads, I certainly haven't seen many of them. Some may not agree but the German Brands to me still are ahead of the game at present and they're ever so desirable as they have always have been. Stealfwolf has a hard choice to make but what matters in the end is that he his happy with whatever he ends up with.


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## should_do_more (Apr 30, 2008)

robertdon777 said:


> Kerr is correct
> 
> The only well priced hatch that will feel like an upgrade is the M140i
> 
> and then the Cupra LEON, but may feel too similar to the Golf.


A friend of mine has a 140 and he has a history of VW Golfs. He had exactly the same thing happen, but he has two kids.

I found my Golf the most expensive car to run that I have owned.

Stuff buying British made. I would if there was something worth buying but I wouldn't make it any part of my criteria for this type of car.

Kerr is spot on as far as I'm concerned.


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## SteveTDCi (Feb 8, 2006)

I would have said M140i but given its already been mentioned i'll throw something different it to the pot.

I will go with the XE 3.0 Supercharged, however i guess it depends on your budget. The golf is not exactly in your face, in fact its probably one of the blandest hot hatches there is. However if it works for you then why not keep it. You will lose more money on a newer car than you will on the old Golf.


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## taz736 (Sep 5, 2011)

Kia Stinger, great looking car with 365bhp and 7yr warranty.


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## Christian6984 (Dec 20, 2007)

Want something different to the neighbours, ever considered something like a Volvo V60? Leasing on a T5 model is similar price per month to the M140. I think it looks pretty smart, either that or I've got all sensible and hit middle aged territory at just 32 years old :lol:


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## dazbrookespuma (Apr 10, 2007)

Alfa guillia if you fancy a bigger car don't see many about lovely looking motor and alfa have come on a lot reliability wise.


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## Derekh929 (Aug 28, 2011)

Kerr said:


> The German cars might seem monotonous to you, but the OP has drawn up his criteria and trying to tick all boxes will probably end up at the same conclusion. German.
> 
> If A Golf doesn't pass the boy racer image then a Civic Type R most certainly won't. It's manual only and the in car tech is awful.
> 
> ...


My thoughts you your assumptions answered above Kerr 
?Going by the Blood bath on current M cars even bought at huge discounts and the stories of non M cars negative equity and VT termination values I'm not so sure of that , Audi is the only one bucking that trends on the RS5 guy sold 11 months in lost £4k all be it got big % disc I'm still :doublesho Was out in RS5 a few weeks Back with client I have to say I was left shocked by the performance on very wet day unbelievable grip and poise.

OP the BMW M140i for me after all that , Seat leaves me cold and local member on here went old S3 to Cupra and he did not like the Seat at all he is know in a golf R and really likes its, I aint tried the new 300st one though.

I have to say I love the Focus ST though


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

Derekh929 said:


> My thoughts you your assumptions answered above Kerr
> ?Going by the Blood bath on current M cars even bought at huge discounts and the stories of non M cars negative equity and VT termination values I'm not so sure of that , Audi is the only one bucking that trends on the RS5 guy sold 11 months in lost £4k all be it got big % disc I'm still :doublesho Was out in RS5 a few weeks Back with client I have to say I was left shocked by the performance on very wet day unbelievable grip and poise.
> 
> OP the BMW M140i for me after all that , Seat leaves me cold and local member on here went old S3 to Cupra and he did not like the Seat at all he is know in a golf R and really likes its, I aint tried the new 300st one though.
> ...


Finance is relentlessly talked about on the BMW forum. It is a bit much and often the obvious thing is people don't understand finance, especially PCP deals.

Firstly on the VT front it is getting a bit scary how many people are VTing their cars now. It's usually the salesmen pushing them down that route. Garages that are pumping out Mlites don't want them back.

Obviously it's a legal right to VT, but it's a get out clause to help people who have had a change in financial circumstances and can no longer afford the payments. People are abusing it now. If someone does a VT they should be stopped from getting credit for a set period in my opinion.

Cars like the M140i do stay in negative equity for a long time. But BMW do set the GFMV close to what the car will be worth at trade price at the end. It's usually around month 37-40 before you're at breakeven to chop the car in on a 48 month deal.

You must get a big discount. There is up to 25% discounts on them new. A nicely optioned car should be around £30k new.

I read the deals people were getting on the Hyundai i30N and people are paying more to PCP one of them.

I don't get why people are so shocked about negative equity on their brand new purchase. They are borrowing massive amounts of money. Interest is paid on the full amount and not just the part they are paying back on a PCP.

The bottom of the M4 market is still around £30k for a 5 year old car. There isn't anything bad about 50% value retention after 5 years. It's not as good as other M cars.

Same with the M135i. The very bottom of the Mlite market is £13k for a 2012 car. They were £30k new before discount. 43% retained value after 7 years is actually very good.

I think we just read more about finance as more people are buying on finance now. Also people are borrowing far more than ever since PCP deals make expensive cars accessible for smaller monthly payments.


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## Derekh929 (Aug 28, 2011)

Kerr said:


> Finance is relentlessly talked about on the BMW forum. It is a bit much and often the obvious thing is people don't understand finance, especially PCP deals.
> 
> Firstly on the VT front it is getting a bit scary how many people are VTing their cars now. It's usually the salesmen pushing them down that route. Garages that are pumping out Mlites don't want them back.
> 
> ...


I have to agree on the VT front I think its a dangerous president and I agree that some form of deterrent would be a good idea to stop it being used for wrong reasons.

Thing is though Kerr people don't keep their M cars for 5 years and there lies the big elephant in the house, PCP is only part of the problem and the way manufacturers and salesman manipulate the deals is unreal all this give me your month budget nonsense. More like tell me the Best price , best APR and best GFV as these are manipulated at dealer level as well, with merc anyway.

If you look at non M lite and others its a different story 335d for example even with big deposit the figures quoted on neg equity is crazy.

I do think though people resent all these people driving new cars with PCP but finance and debt is not a problem if its affordable and protected, as always the car industry has created lots of jobs with it, although it is hurting residuals
Even with my car with large deposit the first 2 years in I would get very little of my deposit back at this point , but hope to retain a bit back at end , but I have no guarantees I will but I have costed it over 4 years


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## stealthwolf (Sep 24, 2008)

Kerr said:


> What's the budget?


Not sure. I bought the Golf GTI on PCP back in 2008 and it was £300pcm at the time. I had planned to chop and change every three years but I fell in love with the car, hated the look of the MK6, paid off the balloon and kept the car. This time around, I was anticipating up to £500pcm.



Kerr said:


> The M140i is a bit more grown up than the other 5 door hatches.


I had considered it. SWMBO had a 116d which I drove on a few occasions. Felt very snug but also very low down. I'll put it on the list for test driving.

I wasn't sure if I was going to stay with hatchbacks. I'd be quite happy with a saloon or similar if the back seats can go down. I know someone with a 6-series GT and it can store loads in the back. Out of my price range though.



andy665 said:


> possibly a Leon Cupra which is certainly a little less common
> 
> Probably some good deals going on the remaining 340i / 335d's as well at the moment


After I had the Golf for a while, I did think about a BMW saloon for a while. The problem is everyone has a 3-series. Seat Cupra is a Golf in another body, and when I test drove the latest Golf GTI, it felt dead.



percymon said:


> Audi S3 Sportback ? Maybe not too tech laden but a little less boy racer than the Golf, well its a little more subtle anyway


Yup I considered Audi. Never been keen on the sportback look. On the same chassis IIRC as the Golf GTI.



percymon said:


> BMW X2 - bit more family wagon, but the higher end ones are pretty peppy - won;t exactly handle on rails though.


Swmbo has a Tiguan and whilst it's okay to drive every now and then, I hate the higher ride of an SUV.



robertdon777 said:


> A BMW i3...


I'm on the fence about electric. I think as the infrastructure improves, I'll make the jump. But until that point, I'd stick with petrol.



Kerr said:


> The German cars might seem monotonous to you, but the OP has drawn up his criteria and trying to tick all boxes will probably end up at the same conclusion. German.


Yeah I feel I'm coming to similar conclusions. There's a reason why BMW Merc Audi are popular.

Peugeot - I've known two close relatives with Peugeots. They don't last, break down (or parts fail) more frequently, and don't look that great. Similar issue with Alfas - fantastic to look at. Reliability an issue.



SteveTDCi said:


> I will go with the XE 3.0 Supercharged


The Jag website reckons £300pcm, so may be affordable. I'll investigate more and have a closer look.



SteveTDCi said:


> The golf is not exactly in your face, in fact its probably one of the blandest hot hatches there is. However if it works for you then why not keep it. You will lose more money on a newer car than you will on the old Golf.


Honestly, the MK5 Golf GTI stands out from the rest of the MK5 Golf range, something which appears to have been lost on the MK7 range. If I had to relive this life again, I'd definitely buy the MK5 GTI again. If I had the cash, I'd probably respray it, refresh some of the parts and keep it for another 100k.



taz736 said:


> Kia Stinger, great looking car with 365bhp and 7yr warranty.


No.


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## stealthwolf (Sep 24, 2008)

I think since PCP has taken off, cars aren't kept for long. There's a quick turnaround time - keep it for 3 years, swap it for another one. But whilst it has made new cars more accessible, it's made cars more expensive. The Golf R was priced around £40k IIRC when first launched and VW had to have great PCP deals (I think £250-260pcm) to shift them. 

Are dealers not buying cars back at GMFV? Or is there too much of a shortfall between final PCP payment and balloon payment?


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## Derekh929 (Aug 28, 2011)

stealthwolf said:


> I think since PCP has taken off, cars aren't kept for long. There's a quick turnaround time - keep it for 3 years, swap it for another one. But whilst it has made new cars more accessible, it's made cars more expensive. The Golf R was priced around £40k IIRC when first launched and VW had to have great PCP deals (I think £250-260pcm) to shift them.
> 
> Are dealers not buying cars back at GMFV? Or is there too much of a shortfall between final PCP payment and balloon payment?


Dealers are just hiding the neg equity in next car deals it seems to happen loads know, but I think the more and more this happens the worse it will get for the buyer, many inexperienced buyers are going into lease without realising they cant terminate early without paying for all years seems crazy why they would think they could walk away from contract but some think that is the case.


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## andy665 (Nov 1, 2005)

Derekh929 said:


> Dealers are just hiding the neg equity in next car deals it seems to happen loads know, but I think the more and more this happens the worse it will get for the buyer, many inexperienced buyers are going into lease without realising they cant terminate early without paying for all years seems crazy why they would think they could walk away from contract but some think that is the case.


There is only negative equity in a PCP deal if the customer changes early and the only way any negative equity can be included is if the dealer commits what could be argued is fraud by "hiding it" - reducing discount on the new vehicle - NO manufacturer finance house will knowingly finance negative equity

If people get into deals that they do not understand the implication then who is at fault - I would suggest all the information is there, albeit in the lengthy T's and Cs but nevertheless its all there in black and white - I would always argue that any customer would be plain stupid not to read them and query anything that they are not sure of. If they do not fully understand what they are signing up to my advice would always be not to commit

I have been involved in PCP since 1991 and Fords Red Carpet Leasing, the forerunner of Options - selling it, developing products, training it so I have a reasonable understanding of the product.

Has there been historic mis-selling - of course there has but there has been a far greater percentage of mis-buying

There are so many variables and just like Brexit, customers want many different things out of PCP.

The problem has been is that most customers want / view PCP as the product that delivers the lowest monthly payment - it was never designed to do that but the manufacturers have pandered to this expectation.

GFVs - how to set them. The responsible thing to do as a lender and also to make moving the customer from Car 1 to Car 2 is to set the GFV at a level which realistically will see equity approximately equal to the deposit that they put in. Every manufacturers products gives dealers the opportunity to reduce the GFV below the £ set but it happens very rarely. Why is this, one reason is laziness and lack of understanding but the main reason is that lowering the GFV increases the monthly payment and as the majority of customers buy on £ per month without looking at the bigger picture offering a lower GFV will not win the business

PCPs were developed to improve the chances of the customer being retained by the manufacturer and shortening the change cycle - this is only possible if a balanced deal is created but the demand for the lowest possible monthly payments renders this difficult, if not impossible to achieve

In an ideal world a customer on PCP runs close to the end of the term, they p/x the car back to the same manufacturer, release equity similar to their original deposit and off they go again on their next car. In reality this rarely happens

Setting the GFV close to the cars actual value (or above it) helps to sell the car today but does nothing to help retain the customer and make it easy for them to move in to another car UNLESS they understand and appreciate that during the term of their deal they need to be saving a deposit for their next car

If at the end of a PCP a car is "handed back", it is not the dealers to sell, it is handed back to the finance house - the dealership can buy it from the customer and settle the GFV or they can negotiate with the finance house post hand back to buy it but they have no obligation - as a dealer why would you want to buy a car from a customer if the GFV was above its true market value - they would much prefer it to be handed back to the finance house. It is far from uncommon to see a finance house offering it to the dealer at a figure below the GFV, whilst they incur a loss it also neatly avoids collection, auction, reconditioning costs so can often be the most cost effective route for them

Quite a few years ago I had a PCP which ran to the end of the term. The GFV was way above market value, I knew this would be case on day one so no problem. At the end of the term I stated that I wanted to hand it back - the finance house did not want this and offered me the car at a figure approx. £4k below the GFV - I accepted the offer, made the payment and immediately p/x'ed it against another vehicle from another brand. As a result of the finance houses desperation not to take the car back (and the associated costs) I turned a zero equity position into a near £2k positive equity situation

I hear countless stories of people feeling ripped off by PCP - they have no grounds - its all set out in the T's and C's, it is not a miraculous product that conjures up money - it is simply a variation of HP with the bonus of protecting the customer from any negative equity position at the end of the term

Many dealers are happy to recommend / suggest VT'ing a car - the manufacturer finance houses take a very dim view of this - the risk / burden is on their shoulders, the dealer stands to lose nothing as the agreement is between the customer and the finance house - I know for a fact that there is a manufacturer finance house sat on a field full of a particular high performance vehicle that have been returned early through VT or handed back at the end of the term with GFVs way above their actual market value - the finance house is working with the manufacturer to slowly release these vehicles back to the dealer network in controlled numbers in a bid to maintain relatively high residuals - this is a process that cannot go on indefinitely, there is a price to be paid and that price will ultimately be paid by the end customers

VT'ing is being cracked down on now by finance houses. It was the case that excess mileage charges were never clawed back so a customer had an easy escape route if they had exceeded the mileage terms - that is changing, there have been an increasing number of cases where the customer has been billed for damage / excess mileage and a number of court cases where the finance house has won - and quite rightly so in my opinion.

Back on topic and apologies for thread hi-jack but I'd strongly recommend an M140, or even better a late M135i which is proving to be more robust and has more engine character than the slightly more powerful M140i


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## roscopervis (Aug 22, 2006)

How practical does the car need to be?

Why don't you get a loan that you would repay £500 a month on?

How would you feel about going for a classic that won't depreciate and has lots of wow factor?


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## SteveTDCi (Feb 8, 2006)

The problem with PCP is people are fixated on monthly payments, if a monthly payment is important and you have no desire to own it then lease it, just know that your stuck with it until the very last payment.

The break even point on used is around 18-24 months on a 3 year PCP, interest is a large chunk on the loan. I once sold an A3 to someone who was so desperate to have £100 pm as his payments he put something like 10k down over 4 years had payments around £96 pm and still owned £6000 at the end of it. He could have whacked 10k down and bank loaned the remaining 7k ....


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## Shiny (Apr 23, 2007)

Lexus RC? Apart from the front grill, it is a nice looking car with good performance.

I know the Italians have been dismissed, but how about a used Alfa Quadrifoglio?

I have no idea if these are within budget, but if VW Golf is upwards of £30k, then I know which I would rather have.


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## andy665 (Nov 1, 2005)

SteveTDCi said:


> The problem with PCP is people are fixated on monthly payments, if a monthly payment is important and you have no desire to own it then lease it, just know that your stuck with it until the very last payment.
> 
> The break even point on used is around 18-24 months on a 3 year PCP, interest is a large chunk on the loan. I once sold an A3 to someone who was so desperate to have £100 pm as his payments he put something like 10k down over 4 years had payments around £96 pm and still owned £6000 at the end of it. He could have whacked 10k down and bank loaned the remaining 7k ....


The break even point (or at least the point where you could p/x or sell with no negative equity) is entirely dependent on deposit and GFV, pretty much impossible to say it's usually month 18-24 on a 36 month PCP agreement - people can use some common sense and research to get an indication of where that point would be on any given deal but generalizing is dangerous.

If a GFV was spectarulary high a customer would never reach break even during the term but a very low GFV and high deposit could see you always at break even or better - anything in between is also possible


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## robertdon777 (Nov 3, 2005)

stealthwolf said:


> I'm on the fence about electric. I think as the infrastructure improves, I'll make the jump. But until that point, I'd stick with petrol.


The i3 is Petrol (range extender model)


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## Derekh929 (Aug 28, 2011)

Andy , we know it’s not meant to be done but you just need to look at car forums you will see it’s a comn practice know.
The industry standards in explaining these finance products is sparse to say the least so try to still confuse with flat rate not APR not allowed by regulator, you need to explain the contract and confirm key info , lets do a mystery shop I bet it won’t go well.
Consumers need to be responsible as well and take more due care when looking at these agreements, I have worked in Financial services for 26 years and seen people not treating customer as should be the car industry has unfortuneyly not got got a good record on that front.
I have dealt with a few of late that bucked that trend and were very good I must admit, but many it’s all smokes and mirrors whether people want to believe it or not.
In my industry we are always treated to the lowest common donominator so if 1 in a thousand does a bad job they make rules to try to stop the 1 leaving the rest to spend hours extra to do so , that’s just how it is I’m affraird


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## andy665 (Nov 1, 2005)

Derekh929 said:


> Andy , we know it's not meant to be done but you just need to look at car forums you will see it's a comn practice know.
> The industry standards in explaining these finance products is sparse to say the least so try to still confuse with flat rate not APR not allowed by regulator, you need to explain the contract and confirm key info , lets do a mystery shop I bet it won't go well.
> Consumers need to be responsible as well and take more due care when looking at these agreements, I have worked in Financial services for 26 years and seen people not treating customer as should be the car industry has unfortuneyly not got got a good record on that front.
> I have dealt with a few of late that bucked that trend and were very good I must admit, but many it's all smokes and mirrors whether people want to believe it or not.
> In my industry we are always treated to the lowest common donominator so if 1 in a thousand does a bad job they make rules to try to stop the 1 leaving the rest to spend hours extra to do so , that's just how it is I'm affraird


Completely agree but for every sales person guilty of telling the vustomer what they want to hear there is a customer guilty of hearing what they want to hear.

It's frightening to see how few questions people ask making such a big financial commitment and to be fair to the motor industry standards (mainly through legislation rather than a desire to pro actively doing the right thing) have risen more than the average customers willingness or ability to look at the picture as opposed to the "What's the lowest payment " mentalitu


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## Derekh929 (Aug 28, 2011)

Sorry Stealthwolf for going on a PCP Tangent , I think you would regret not getting the M140i at least wait till better weather and get it out for a day, I also would say try the new A Class controversial one but its meant to be very very good we will see when I get for for a day out.

Good luck on your search sometimes for me the search is fun on last motor it was a nightmare riddled with poor dealers service, but I found a good one in Huddersfield some 467 miles from me.


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## Derekh929 (Aug 28, 2011)

andy665 said:


> The break even point (or at least the point where you could p/x or sell with no negative equity) is entirely dependent on deposit and GFV, pretty much impossible to say it's usually month 18-24 on a 36 month PCP agreement - people can use some common sense and research to get an indication of where that point would be on any given deal but generalizing is dangerous.
> 
> If a GFV was spectarulary high a customer would never reach break even during the term but a very low GFV and high deposit could see you always at break even or better - anything in between is also possible


For me the Key facts should be handed to clients after they have figures, these Include Correct Purchase price for the car not adding in Paint protection and performance exhausts and the like on PCP, then APR then Total cost of Interest and the amount per month for just the Interest, then GFV and a brief detail on expected condition of the vehicle when handed back, and last but not least the monthly payment, also any fees start and end also any commission or fees to dealer etc.

But I see the pitch I want a car my max is £225 after dealer pushes to get the info so then they convince 2 year PCP not any good you need 4 years as dealer get better kick back on finance. My daughter wanted to get her new car doing it on her own, she made the mistake off budget and they tried to sell her poor spec pre face lift car and told lots of lies about spec options. I got involved got her value of trade in up £350 with other dealer the face lift car with an explanation of the new extra packs and got loads more spec on same price and similar gfv all in same dealer network.


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## ollienoclue (Jan 30, 2017)

Christian6984 said:


> Want something different to the neighbours, ever considered something like a Volvo V60? Leasing on a T5 model is similar price per month to the M140. I think it looks pretty smart, either that or I've got all sensible and hit middle aged territory at just 32 years old :lol:


That is what I would have suggested. AWD model, polestar it, goes like a rocket and won't be found on it's roof or try to spin on a roundabout.

The 1 series does nothing for me. If people are serious about going the next step up from a Golf GTI then its obviously performance saloon and that means M3....


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

ollienoclue said:


> That is what I would have suggested. AWD model, polestar it, goes like a rocket and won't be found on it's roof or try to spin on a roundabout.
> 
> The 1 series does nothing for me. If people are serious about going the next step up from a Golf GTI then its obviously performance saloon and that means M3....


I like the V60 Polestar, but it's £50k new. They aren't as fast as the power suggests and not the best drivers car. The Mlite is much faster.

If you go for the older 3.0 you've got the big road tax and the fuel economy is poor.

The M3 is a different class of car with much higher costs too. It doesn't have 5 doors as per criteria..


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## ollienoclue (Jan 30, 2017)

Kerr said:


> I like the V60 Polestar, but it's £50k new. They aren't as fast as the power suggests and not the best drivers car. The Mlite is much faster.
> 
> If you go for the older 3.0 you've got the big road tax and the fuel economy is poor.
> 
> The M3 is a different class of car with much higher costs too. It doesn't have 5 doors as per criteria..


I did not mean the actual V60 Polestar, that would be an expensive car to buy. I mean buying a V60 or similar and then having it tuned by Volvo. It would not be an M140i to drive but would be plenty fast enough, certainly if coming from a GTI it would be plenty angry enough and there are a variety of tuners that can do more.


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## GP Punto (May 29, 2007)

Last new car I bought was 6 years ago, cannot remember being in a showroom seriously looking to buy in all that time.

A friend suggested I looked at Hyundai, cannot beleive that any garage can charge £17000+ for a 1000 cc car that is just plain ugly, and the sante fe, which I assumed was late £20,000s was £48,000.

They must think I am daft.


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## stealthwolf (Sep 24, 2008)

In my heart of hearts, an M3 or even an M5/6 would be my dream car. But they're way out of my price league unless I buy secondhand.


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## Christian6984 (Dec 20, 2007)

GP Punto said:


> Last new car I bought was 6 years ago, cannot remember being in a showroom seriously looking to buy in all that time.
> 
> A friend suggested I looked at Hyundai, cannot beleive that any garage can charge £17000+ for a 1000 cc car that is just plain ugly, and the sante fe, which I assumed was late £20,000s was £48,000.
> 
> They must think I am daft.


The quality and finish of the interiors has improved in recent years i noticed when looking at some Kia's but the pricing has got to European levels as well


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## ollienoclue (Jan 30, 2017)

stealthwolf said:


> In my heart of hearts, an M3 or even an M5/6 would be my dream car. But they're way out of my price league unless I buy secondhand.


Nothing wrong with second hand, just investigate the running costs.

I've always had a basic car ladder, bit out of date but still works:

Hot hatch--<Scoob or similar---<M3/performance saloon---<911---<###Dangerzone###

You have done the hatch thing, to me an M3 or similar is a logical step.


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## roscopervis (Aug 22, 2006)

Second hand makes way more sense than new You can get a car that won't depreciate or will at least slowly. Taking that first hit makes no sense.


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## andy665 (Nov 1, 2005)

stealthwolf said:


> In my heart of hearts, an M3 or even an M5/6 would be my dream car. But they're way out of my price league unless I buy secondhand.


Problem is that these still have the running / maintenance costs of the car when it was new and they are hardly paragons of low maintenance vehicles

I seriously looked at an M6 before I bought the 650i and concluded that the step up in performance was simply not worth the massively higher costs involved in running one

I could afford to buy an M6 but would struggle to maintain one


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## petemattw (Nov 3, 2008)

andy665 said:


> Problem is that these still have the running / maintenance costs of the car when it was new and they are hardly paragons of low maintenance vehicles
> 
> I seriously looked at an M6 before I bought the 650i and concluded that the step up in performance was simply not worth the massively higher costs involved in running one
> 
> I could afford to buy an M6 but would struggle to maintain one


You made a very good decision there! My friend who is an independent BMW specialist warned me off buying any M cars especially 6. He gets loads in that once they hit 80k miles require a new engine £22,000!!!! Becauae it's basically a race engine but is abused as people try to drive them hard from cold and essentially knacker them, which is why there's plenty of M6's with higher miles that look temptingly cheap!

People always seem to forget about running costs. I could afford (just about) to buy a bentley, but i'd have to park it up in 6 months because i wouldn't have the money to put fuel in it any more....


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## bidderman1969 (Oct 20, 2006)

why you not considering the Kia Stinger? Ex-Audi designer, German M-Power technician (i believe) designing the engine, for half the price? what's not to like?

be nuts not to at least test drive one?


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## BavarianRob (Mar 28, 2010)

My wife has an M140i it's amazing. AND I get 42 mpg out of it when I use it for work!










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Brian1612 (Apr 5, 2015)

BavarianRob said:


> My wife has an M140i it's amazing. AND I get 42 mpg out of it when I use it for work!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That must be about 98% motorway looking at the average speed 

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk


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## Kerr (Mar 27, 2012)

Brian1612 said:


> That must be about 98% motorway looking at the average speed
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk


Mlites can return very good economy driving normally. The torque is low down and you can make decent progress without revving the engine much.

Here is a recorded trip in my M235i. Note the roads and how much time I wiped off of Google maps usually very accurate trip time.





Really nursing it.



Driving hard, or in town, they are thirsty.

Overall I average 30mpg in the M235i v 25mpg in the A45. No matter how much you squeeze the A45 it can't match the Mlites economy. Even on a straightforward motorway run they use more fuel.


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## BavarianRob (Mar 28, 2010)

Brian1612 said:


> That must be about 98% motorway looking at the average speed
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk


Ha ha, you're nearly right 86% actually - 47 miles of the 55 on the M1 but still better than the 30mpg from my M4!

My 440i used to do 42mpg on the same run regularly. I'd recommend the M140i to anyone. Best and cheapest all rounder you'll get.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## stealthwolf (Sep 24, 2008)

andy665 said:


> Problem is that these still have the running / maintenance costs of the car when it was new and they are hardly paragons of low maintenance vehicles


Yup that now reminds me of my cousin who bought an M3 but couldn't afford the running costs so had to sell after 6 months.



bidderman1969 said:


> why you not considering the Kia Stinger? Ex-Audi designer, German M-Power technician (i believe) designing the engine, for half the price? what's not to like?


I'll add it to the list


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