# Where are all the 50/50 and proper after shots?



## HeavenlyDetail (Sep 22, 2006)

Im finding of late without pointing out any threads that there seems to be an influx of after shots of shiny cars without actually showing proper correction shots or paintwork under proper lighting etc? Im of the opinion that as detailers the whole point of a transformation of a vehicle is to refine the paintwork into its best possible state but im just rarely seeing this. Its very easy to take a photo of a car before with swirls and defects in sunlight or under lighting then for some reason the finished shots are of a shiny car from a distance with no close ups of 50/50,s or swirl free finishes?
I feel threads are not taken seriously when this happens and i see it all over the net on forums especially side shots of massive reflection which is easily achieveable on a battered car with a good camera.
Am i alone in these thoughts or do generally feel threads are as good as they can be.? I just feel it spoils the effort people have put into a thread or a car by not actually highlighting exactly what they have achieved?
Its certainly not a rant it is a genuine point ive noticed and has been mentioned and discussed on various other forums i peruse due to new detailers highlighting their work but seem to be disgiusing what was actually the state of the finished paintwork.


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## Sharpy (Mar 25, 2007)

Im kind of the same opinion, if I want to see a dozen shiny cars in a thread il look at google images, I think some threads are just a show off of look what expensive cars ive detailed this week, with just finished pics of all these cars, id much rather see a damn good 50/50 on a batterd old ford escort than a single pic of a shiny skyline, rr, audi etc etc

Plus I certainly dont think its just 'new' detailers as you put it, its people from all detailing pedigrees if you know what I mean, new and experienced. 

Also I despise the videos aswell, i wish pics would accompany them, i never have time to sit an watch a vid so those threads just get ignored and they are boring. 

I love threads from the likes of kds, esp his wet sanding details as you get to see lots of pics but not too many that makes you want to press the back button, and you get to see the fine details of the detail that took place


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## Avanti (Jan 17, 2006)

vxrmarc said:


> Im finding of late without pointing out any threads that there seems to be an influx of after shots of shiny cars without actually showing proper correction shots or paintwork under proper lighting etc? Im of the opinion that as detailers the whole point of a transformation of a vehicle is to refine the paintwork into its best possible state but im just rarely seeing this. Its very easy to take a photo of a car before with swirls and defects in sunlight or under lighting then for some reason the finished shots are of a shiny car from a distance with no close ups of 50/50,s or swirl free finishes?
> *I feel threads are not taken seriously when this happens *and i see it all over the net on forums especially side shots of massive reflection which is easily achieveable on a battered car with a good camera.
> *Am i alone in these thoughts or do generally feel threads are as good as they can be.? I just feel it spoils the effort people have put into a thread or a car by not actually highlighting exactly what they have achieved?*
> Its certainly not a rant it is a genuine point ive noticed and has been mentioned and discussed on various other forums i peruse due to new detailers highlighting their work but seem to be disgiusing what was actually the state of the finished paintwork.


Perhaps part of the reason is to look at the response/views ratio, if the author isn't going to get much response then why should they bother with putting a lot of effort into the post? And also it perhaps depends on the car being detailed, eg a daweo detail vs say a Merc V12, the V12 posting will get more response irrespective of the effort put into creating the post


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## alxg (May 3, 2009)

Well speaking as someone who has done a few details now so consider myself very amateur in respect to the pro's, I simply do not have time to stop to take photos at every stage because it takes me bloody ages to get the job done as it is.
I have deliberately not posted my last couple because of the reason above and also as the pics I did shoot were taken on my iphone and not some expensive DSLR like the pro's use.

After comments like the above, do you really think you are encouraging us hobbyists to post up details?


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## Spirit Detailing (Mar 29, 2007)

I never do 50/50 shots anymore. Only before and afters with the camera on a tripod. Slapping a piece of tape on a car and polishing one side is not good for paint. 

Also agree that videos lose my interest. 

I also feel that detailers take too many photos with the camera focused on the distant object reflected instead of focusing on the paint itself. Its too easy to hide damage in that sort of photo, so although the car might make for a good photo, we are not seeing the true result.


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## Beau Technique (Jun 21, 2010)

Agree qith ^^^ somewhat.
I had quite a few hits on one write up yet it featured zero potential in the 50/50's way but was a nice car ( to quite a few anyway ) yet one I did offer quite a few 50/50's had far less response.
Sometimes if its general cars like Z4's, porsches etc its just the norm.
Users seem so wrapped up in the "prestige" and seldom rarely look at the big picture which is "was it a straight forward ferarri or a hammered mondeo brought back to life"
I prefer the general cars, love prestige obviously but the sense of satisfaction on truning a minger to blinger beats them hands down, sadly, not always recieving the neccesary reception it deserves due to it being shadowed by some after shots of a fancy lambo etc.


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## tim (May 2, 2006)

Marc I whole heartedly agree, and it isn't just some amateurs doing this..

I take great pride in my showing the true level of finish I've achieved through photography. You've opened a can of worms here so I'll be waiting for the usual suspects to drop in and tell us 'oh i don't know how to use a camera' 'i dont have time to be..' ladeda


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## RandomlySet (Jul 10, 2007)

I kinda agree.... However, I notice this more so in the Showroom and not as much in the Studio...

One thing I don't like is people posting just "After" Pictures (mainly in the studio). It doesn't give an idea of what the motor was like beforehand...


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## nickmak (May 29, 2010)

I guess for us amateurs we really don't have the time to stop and show each stage of the correction, but we're all learning here! Even me, I'm having trouble getting the 50/50 with my camera...


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## HeavenlyDetail (Sep 22, 2006)

Some good posts so far and video aspect def taken on board, its all a learning curve for everyone, I think the threads on all forums that get me are the shots of bad paintwork before highlighting swirls and marks etc but actually fail to show after that they have actually been removed as a shiny car from a distance or focused on the outer limits of the paintwork, I just dont understand why if you highlight how bad it is before after you have corrected it why you wouldn't show so?


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## chrisc (Jun 15, 2008)

vxrmarc said:


> Im finding of late without pointing out any threads that there seems to be an influx of after shots of shiny cars without actually showing proper correction shots or paintwork under proper lighting etc? Im of the opinion that as detailers the whole point of a transformation of a vehicle is to refine the paintwork into its best possible state but im just rarely seeing this. Its very easy to take a photo of a car before with swirls and defects in sunlight or under lighting then for some reason the finished shots are of a shiny car from a distance with no close ups of 50/50,s or swirl free finishes? I feel threads are not taken seriously when this happens and i see it all over the net on forums especially side shots of massive reflection which is easily achieveable on a battered car with a good camera. Am i alone in these thoughts or do generally feel threads are as good as they can be.? I just feel it spoils the effort people have put into a thread or a car by not actually highlighting ex


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## stangalang (Nov 27, 2009)

I agree to a limit here. I think saying that people blame their photography skills blah blah is pretty ignorant, do you really think an office worker with limited time to do some work on a car should be a pro with a camera as well? We are all learning, most as we go along and do the best we can with the time we can afford. Putting quality of picture to one side, i do think the "choice" of picture is quite poor sometimes, opting for easy shots that dont highlight the work that should have been completed. I have written out a list of shots i want for the next one i do so i definately get the correct shots, all be it on a crap camera! 

The most compelling posts here though are the ones talking about the prestige of the cars, something i have already discussed with other members. There seem to be a lot of snobs on here, only replying to the most exotic of motors. If you take the time to read it, take the time to reply, good or bad, we can take it:thumb:


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## Exclusive Car Care (Jan 14, 2007)

I agree with Marc but I guess it all depends on if they are saying full correction was carried out. I also hate loads of 50/50's in a thread, especially when its the same 50/50 and they take 6-8 shots of it. I always do atleast one 50/50 in my threads and always do my before and afters shots of correction at the same angle and show the finish under a sun gun and when possible under direct sun.


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## chrisc (Jun 15, 2008)

If some one is proud of what they have done let them show it whatever way they want.not everybody cares about swirls etc.i had argument with jamesb about this.everybody as a different level they can do and what there happy with.does not make it any less good in there eye's.think there is a bit of snobbery on dw of late.not every person would pay x amount done on there car etc to achive the finish you get on about.i know valeters.steam cleaners what make good money through the ten foot shot as jamesb called them.and what 99percent of people are happy with.any how i shall crack on with a subaru im doing.


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## ianFRST (Sep 19, 2006)

vxrmarc said:


> Im finding of late without pointing out any threads that there seems to be an influx of after shots of shiny cars without actually showing proper correction shots or paintwork under proper lighting etc? Im of the opinion that as detailers the whole point of a transformation of a vehicle is to refine the paintwork into its best possible state but im just rarely seeing this. Its very easy to take a photo of a car before with swirls and defects in sunlight or under lighting then for some reason the finished shots are of a shiny car from a distance with no close ups of 50/50,s or swirl free finishes?
> I feel threads are not taken seriously when this happens and i see it all over the net on forums especially side shots of massive reflection which is easily achieveable on a battered car with a good camera.
> Am i alone in these thoughts or do generally feel threads are as good as they can be.? I just feel it spoils the effort people have put into a thread or a car by not actually highlighting exactly what they have achieved?
> Its certainly not a rant it is a genuine point ive noticed and has been mentioned and discussed on various other forums i peruse due to new detailers highlighting their work but seem to be disgiusing what was actually the state of the finished paintwork.


depends what they are claiming to have done imo.

a "valet" could take all day, and have no correction work at all. so why show pics of how bad the swirls are? :lol:

if they are claiming to then correct it 100% and show no evidence, then they are only fooling themselves surely? just for the sake of a few "looks good" "nice work" comments.

honestly, why get worked up about it


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## alan hanson (May 21, 2008)

something else i always find missing is what difficulties peeps found some state they needed to up the cut of the polish/pad etc... which is something most of us can say we have experienced at some point or another. but do the regular detailers or anyone else ever come up against somethings that they struggled with during the detail? each detail goes like a dream. after all the amount of help this site has give me is massive reading how to get over problems etc other peeps have faced is important to all.

Also everyone loves a clean car, but its the attention to detail on the less important parts of the car which are sometimes hidden which make the difference


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## ant_s (Jan 29, 2009)

Got to admit my last 2 write-ups, included no finished pics, only before and during pics, both have small video showing 50/50's, but on both occasions i just didn't have time to photograph the results as a whole, but wanted to do the write-up to show the work i put in. 

I found it easier to do a short video (10 seconds-ish) panning across the paint showing what i acheived on one panel, than do before pics, and then the same angle, lighting etc of the finished panel.

Although next year on the write-ups i do, i have already planned that i will do them in a better format, and always get better pics.


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## West End1981 (Apr 4, 2009)

It's easy to get those type of shots with a dark unit and 1000w halogens but if the only option is to detail outdoors then it's a bit more difficult. I spent half an hour trying to get good shots of correction but in direct sunlight the camera finds it difficult to focus. For established pro "Detailers" I can see your point but for the majority of hobbie car enthuisiasts I don't see a problem.


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## dwmc (Jun 6, 2010)

from a newby . hobbyiest . enthusiast`s point of view i don`t see why other peoples threads specially on other forums would bother you pro`s . 

it`s write ups with pics and details of your own work that matters . theres no way you can prevent what you are seeing but as pro`s all you can do is advise and hope they listen and take onboard what advice is given . 

i`ve learnt loads from marcs threads as i have done from many other pro`s both on here and other forums and i`ve still to learn loads so thats why when the pro`s post threads i take note and learn what i can and put into practise when i can . 

i`de like to add though that i like to post threads of what i`ve done , although i`m not a pro i`m proud of what i`ve achieved plus it great looking back at old threads and seeing how i`ve improved . 

would also like to add that i could quite easy get use of my uncles unit , get a webpage set up and pretend to be a pro as a small minority have done but for me perfection is my goal along with knowledge and experience . until i feel i`m ready to do this i`m happy . and by saying that i`m not at all pointing the finger at anyone on here or any other forum for that matter . it`s just my opinion . 

so to sum it up keep the threads coming guys . there a great help :thumb:

thanks from a :newbie:


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## danielhoworth (Jul 14, 2010)

Simple reasons, using an iPhone for camera and it can't see swirls. Sure many people are in the same boat but still want to show off their work


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## Guest (Nov 26, 2010)

Surely people can just post what they feel fit to post?i post whatever i like to show people what ive done and they may have interest in that specific car,it has nothing to do with hiding any marks,well for me anyway! Some people may hide things i dont know,i dont see what the fuss is about,people post what they like!


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## dwmc (Jun 6, 2010)

edited


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## tomah (Sep 17, 2010)

I'm still pretty new around here.

I've put a couple of threads up in the showroom. Yet, I've never done a 50/50.

This is for two reasons:

a) lack of time
b) no torch

None of the days I've detailed my cars have been sunny, so getting 50/50's from the sun wasn't an option. And I haven't brought myself to spend 30-40 quid on a torch, although I do plan to.

I'm sorry if my threads have disappointed.

I promise my next showroom thread will have 50/50's.


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## DetailMyCar (Apr 19, 2010)

I hope you're not referring to any of mine 

I spent a good hour or so every Saturday/Sunday night usually writing up what i did, uploading the photo's etc

Here's some of the recent ones if you wanted to give me any tips!

20/11/2010 BMW 535D http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=193556

14/11/2010 HONDA CIVIC TYPE-R http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=192873

07/11/2010 TOYOTA CELICA http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=191866

30/10/2010 RENAULT MEGANE F1 http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=190895

16/10/2010 BMW 118D http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=189067

25/09/2010 HONDA S2000 http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=186529


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## HeavenlyDetail (Sep 22, 2006)

dwmc said:


> vxrmarc`s van is exempt from this thread then http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=193675
> 
> nice shot of the finish marc , would of been great to see before , during and after pics including a few 50/50 shots .
> 
> i know how good you are at what you do marc but just pointing out that all you done is taken a few pics on your phone . isn`t this what this thread was about others doing .


Nope that's as intended and posted outside the studio in gtechnic section , if I had intended it to have been a full thread it would have been posted as such in the relevant section.
The point your missing is not people showing 50/50 shots in their own threads it when they state they have done it and show how bad it is before yet never actually show after yet funnily lights were used and cameras seem to have taken good photos. As you state is very easy to start a website and slap a Nice car on there yet only picked up a machine polisher 3 months ago? How can that be good for the detailing industry as a whole if people are being let loose in others cars with zero experience yet seeing kerching in their eyes. I think if people are posting swirls before hand with lighting atleast show us the defects have been removed. Thats what full correction is about.


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## HeavenlyDetail (Sep 22, 2006)

aba said:


> Surely people can just post what they feel fit to post?i post whatever i like to show people what ive done and they may have interest in that specific car,it has nothing to do with hiding any marks,well for me anyway! Some people may hide things i dont know,i dont see what the fuss is about,people post what they like!


Absolutely of course you can and that's not the point here but if you spent ages taking shots of swirls and defects then just showed us finished pics without even showing attempts to remove or atleast them removed then why bother posting defects in the first place?


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## Mirror Finish Details (Aug 21, 2008)

I rarely post as I don't touch big money sports cars as I have no real interest in them. I enjoy the older cars and doing Range Rovers most days. So usually a post I put effort into gets little response, that's why I rarely bother now. Unless a sexy sports car posts get little traffic.


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## Miglior (Feb 12, 2006)

I get a bit annoyed at that going on in the studio. I tend to only post stuff up worthy of a full write up and I put a lot of energy into showing the difference made by the work. I hope this comes across


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## dwmc (Jun 6, 2010)

vxrmarc said:


> Nope that's as intended and posted outside the studio in gtechnic section , if I had intended it to have been a full thread it would have been posted as such in the relevant section.
> The point your missing is not people showing 50/50 shots in their own threads it when they state they have done it and show how bad it is before yet never actually show after yet funnily lights were used and cameras seem to have taken good photos. As you state is very easy to start a website and slap a Nice car on there yet only picked up a machine polisher 3 months ago? How can that be good for the detailing industry as a whole if people are being let loose in others cars with zero experience yet seeing kerching in their eyes. I think if people are posting swirls before hand with lighting atleast show us the defects have been removed. Thats what full correction is about.


got it now . didn`t realise you were talking about studio threads .

as a newbie i love the detail that goes into a good detailing thread . gives me plenty to think about to say the least


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## ade33 (Jun 4, 2008)

Personally, I find the most interest in the _process_ pics - that's how we learn stuff, is it not, by watching and reading what others have done? They're certainly the ones that inspire me to have a go.

I think there are lots of 'dirty car pics / clean car pics' threads lately with next to nothing written and tbh I don't see much point in these. We all know what a grubby car looks like and we all know what a shiny car looks like.

A good write-up, imo, should consist of more than before and after pics - where's the 'write' part gone? What did ya do, how and with what - that's what I want to know.

Pro or amateur, makes no difference. Super-car or mum's shopping rocket, makes no difference either, imo.


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## Gleammachine (Sep 8, 2007)

BrianS said:


> Slapping a piece of tape on a car and polishing one side is not good for paint.
> .


Could you elaborate on this please.


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## tim (May 2, 2006)

Rob, In my experience it is possible for ridges to be left when performing heavy correction where the tape line was originally. Very faint, almost like a ghost of where the 50/50 line was and are extremely difficult to remove once made. Don't get me wrong 99 out of 100 people would never notice, but you and I know that isn't the point. This is why I don't do them or like seeing 50/50's on panels any more. The it just isn't worth chancing it for the sake of a photo. When I now much prefer static before and afters like my own.


















Just as good, if not better than a 50/50 and perfectly safe for the paint.:thumb:


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## MidlandsCarCare (Feb 18, 2006)

It's like superglue that 3M tape!! I wouldn't put that on clearcoat!! The 'super low tack' is all a big lie!!

I agree with Marc where we see threads with a ridiculously swirly 'before' but then not similar 'afters', just 'impressive' reflection shots, which you can attain with a bit of SRP!

An example that springs to mind is a recent Porsche Cayenne thread, I don't remember who did it though.

I'm most amused by the 'I've just detailed my car' threads on 'other car forums', then when you read them, you see they've just washed it for an hour or so.

It is a valid point though Marc. I did a red Golf recently,which from a distance looked great, but the hazing and swirling under lights was horrific!!


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## MidlandsCarCare (Feb 18, 2006)

That's a great idea Tim! I didn't realise it could actually cause a problem - I maybe rethink using it now after your post! 3M will love you


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## tim (May 2, 2006)

It's not a mark from the tape, I've no problem with 3M in fact I use all 4 sizes of it and probably too much on every car! But its the compounding necessary to remove deep swirls and RDS's which if performed right up to a tape line, although you maybe only remove 2-3 microns. This can be enough of a difference on either side to be noticeable to the human eye because of the straight edge of the tape.


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## R0B (Aug 27, 2010)

RussZS said:


> It's like superglue that 3M tape!! I wouldn't put that on clearcoat!! The 'super low tack' is all a big lie!!
> 
> I agree with Marc where we see threads with a ridiculously swirly 'before' but then not similar 'afters', just 'impressive' reflection shots, which you can attain with a bit of SRP!
> 
> ...


How utterly pompous of you.....do you not realise that these said threads are probably done by people who are not claiming to be detailers only latching on to the term that they feel is what they should be calling it these days and are probably proud of how clean and shiney there car now looks and wish to show it off to the other members, i doubt many of these are claiming to have done an enhancement correction so why is this an issue if they want to loosely use the term detailing......how very sad.

.....sits back and waits for vitriolic responses from all for daring to question a long standing members opinion.


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## MidlandsCarCare (Feb 18, 2006)

It was*n't* intended to be 'pompous' at all, but 95% of the time they don't even dress their tyres, so the use of the 'detailing' buzzword isn't appropriate! My point IS, nobody just 'cleans' their car anymore, everyone 'details'.


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## tim (May 2, 2006)

robinho, where do you draw the line though?

I do think the word 'detail' or 'detailing' need ring fenced, as it gets abused a little bit too much for my liking. But what I think is more important is the level of correction people are trying tell you or imply that they have achieved. Why not just show someone and put all doubts to rest?

Thats the way I see it anyway, maybe I'm wrong.


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## R0B (Aug 27, 2010)

RussZS said:


> It was intended to be 'pompous' at all, but 95% of the time they don't even dress their tyres, so the use of the 'detailing' buzzword isn't appropriate! My point IS, nobody just 'cleans' their car anymore, everyone 'details'.


 fair point Russ it is an overused term,i must be having a tetchy day:thumb:


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## MidlandsCarCare (Feb 18, 2006)

I think you're right, I did pitch it in a slightly pompous way perhaps, but it certainly wasn't intended as such.

I'd encourage everyone to get out there and have a go!! I guess the use of the word 'detailing' shows just how much of an influence this place has had on the 'car care scene' in the UK, and tbf most forums that I'm on, their 'car care' section is now called 'detailing'

I think the frustration for me is that some people (friends) insist that I'm 'valeting' when I spend 10 hours machine polishing a car, and the word 'detail' has lost its 'prestige' almost, to the point where the work Paul Dalton/KDS etc do is categorised in the very same way as someone who has just washed their car with some Megs NXT Shampoo (again, not being pompous - this was me 6 years ago!). 

Maybe 'true' details need a 'new word'? Some of the latest offerings and work is going way beyond my own interpretation of the word.


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## bigmc (Mar 22, 2010)

RussZS said:


> It was*n't* intended to be 'pompous' at all, but 95% of the time they don't even dress their tyres, so the use of the 'detailing' buzzword isn't appropriate! My point IS, nobody just 'cleans' their car anymore, everyone 'details'.


I never dress tyres as I'm more interested in what the paint looks like not glossy black tyres. Any soft muppet can slap whatever fancy name tyre shine on but if the paint is poor what's the point? 
Finding time for the hobbyists is hard enough anyway, most of the time I start around 9am and the sun is on it's way down when I'm finished and I'm not spending £40 on a sun gun or whatever.


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## R0B (Aug 27, 2010)

tim said:


> robinho, where do you draw the line though?
> 
> I do think the word 'detail' or 'detailing' need ring fenced, as it gets abused a little bit too much for my liking. But what I think is more important is the level of correction people are trying tell you or imply that they have achieved. Why not just show someone and put all doubts to rest?
> 
> Thats the way I see it anyway, maybe I'm wrong.


not wrong at all tim,and they should indeed be ring fenced as over time the industry of detailing is being diluted to what will soon be a £50 job for a correction!
i do work on a part time basis,or at least i will resume when i replace all my stolen gear(another story for another time)this in my eyes consists of 2 parts a valet where in the car is dropped off at works unit i borrow and is treated ton all aspects bar a machine being involved ,this is a high end valet in my eyes not a detail.
A nd obviuosly a fmachine correction all other aspects included is a detail,my opinions only
i have said in my reply to russ that he is right i must be having a bad day hence me now contradicted my original post,not to big to admit i was wrong:thumb:


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## Leodhasach (Sep 15, 2008)

robinho said:


> so why is this an issue if they want to loosely use the term detailing...


How do we know they mean the term loosely?


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## MidlandsCarCare (Feb 18, 2006)

bigmc said:


> I never dress tyres as I'm more interested in what the paint looks like not glossy black tyres. Any soft muppet can slap whatever fancy name tyre shine on but if the paint is poor what's the point?
> Finding time for the hobbyists is hard enough anyway, most of the time I start around 9am and the sun is on it's way down when I'm finished and I'm not spending £40 on a sun gun or whatever.


That's just an example...

I just mean they spend 20 mins washing it, then post pics of their 'detail'. The use of the word has spread big time, that's all my point is


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## R0B (Aug 27, 2010)

Leodhasach said:


> How do we know they mean the term loosely?


thanked you when i meant to quote you,lol.have that 1 on me mate

we dont obviously ,but if they are claiming to have detailed a car and just washed it then even they surely know they are using the term in the loosest sense .


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## CliveP (Feb 1, 2009)

Marc,

I have not read all the replies so apologies if someone has already made these points.

I think whether 'close up' 50/50s are included, it's down to the poster. Whilst 50/50 shots, close ups etc are great, I wouldn't want people thinking they have to post those pictures - otherwise we might get 'elitist'.....and then end up with nothing but those....

I think each to their own - talking to DaveKG some time ago this forum was set up for like minded folks to discuss / get advice about their passion, with the emphasis on it being a 'fun' place to learn / explore / post as they see fit. Whether its very detailed looking at the tiniest swirl marks or a distance shot of a semi-shiny car as long as the poster is happy, long may both continue.

Best Regards,
Clive.


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## Gleammachine (Sep 8, 2007)

RussZS said:


> It's like superglue that 3M tape!! I wouldn't put that on clearcoat!! The 'super low tack' is all a big lie!!


Russ surely you say this in jest?



tim said:


> Rob, In my experience it is possible for ridges to be left when performing heavy correction where the tape line was originally. Very faint, almost like a ghost of where the 50/50 line was and are extremely difficult to remove once made. Don't get me wrong 99 out of 100 people would never notice


I understand the theory in your response Tim, but realistically I'm not sure it would be an issue, I've never seen any form of ghosting or line left from the tape, possibly if you removed 10 um one side and the 1 um the other, but even then I doubt it would be noticable.


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## Miglior (Feb 12, 2006)

Gleammachine said:


> Russ surely you say this in jest?
> 
> I understand the theory in your response Tim, but realistically I'm not sure it would be an issue, I've never seen any form of ghosting or line left from the tape, possibly if you removed 10 um one side and the 1 um the other, but even then I doubt it would be noticable.


Amen to that rob. Me neither!


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## HeavenlyDetail (Sep 22, 2006)

Tim very nice and if you lose the word 50/50 this would suffice in what my thread is about , seeing your first picture and highlighting it at the start of a thread then the second shot never being shown in any form just shiny car 5 foot away , for starters it make the reader wonder if it was actually achieved and secondly if it has been achieved and you,ve spent 6 hours or 12 hours doing it why not show it , you managed to show it before hand?
I rarely use the word detailed if i can help it as i feel it has a bracket too large to make someone understand exactly what is included within that word. i prefer to say ive done paintwork correction or enhanced the paintwork or simply a protection because this puts the detail into its correct categorie and most professional detailers would have this highlighted on their websites although its something i choose not to have. I understand the frustrations of people posting ive just detailed my civic type r today to see a bottle of polish and then waxed all in under 2 hours but as mentioned its a term new enthusiasts presume is the name for a procedure they have just undertaken and probably makes them feel good also , although this is slightly away from my original point i think i just feel sometimes threads in all areas all over the net are not reaching their full potential of correction when the OP has made out they are.
Robinho im sorry about your gear and hopefully you can rebuild as we have discussed.


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## MidlandsCarCare (Feb 18, 2006)

Yep, I was being sarcastic


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## Leodhasach (Sep 15, 2008)

robinho said:


> thanked you when i meant to quote you,lol.have that 1 on me mate
> 
> we dont obviously ,but if they are claiming to have detailed a car and just washed it then even they surely know they are using the term in the loosest sense .


Cheers, that's alright :lol:

Good point to be honest, and probably one with no answer, short of asking the OP of a lot of the showroom threads.


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## Frothey (Apr 30, 2007)

robinho said:


> thanked you when i meant to quote you,lol.have that 1 on me mate
> 
> we dont obviously ,but if they are claiming to have detailed a car and just washed it then even they surely know they are using the term in the loosest sense .


You can detail something without correction. Doing a detail is just that - paying attention to detail, whether that is correcting a car, or making sure it is spotlessly clean. Not dressing types/arches doesn't mean they haven't detailed correctly, providing they're clean


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## Mirror Finish Details (Aug 21, 2008)

RussZS said:


> It was*n't* intended to be 'pompous' at all, but 95% of the time they don't even dress their tyres, so the use of the 'detailing' buzzword isn't appropriate! My point IS, nobody just 'cleans' their car anymore, everyone 'details'.


Is it law to dress tyres!!!!!!

I think the term detailing is overused in that everyone thinks it is paint correction, it is not and is an American term for deep cleaning of a car.

Valeting in the States is parking cars!!

Detailing in the States is generally what we would call a really good valet here, real attention to detail. Not necessarally paint correction.

I spend a lot of time on their multitude of forums and the guys over there who specialise in Paint Correction like I do tend to advertise just Paint Restoration and not Detailing.

I mainly do paint restoration work nowerdays, so if I post a thread it is just that, I rarely clean interiors, dress tyres, dress arches or do engines. I may drop the detailing from the company name and steer the company just for the paint restoration, stone chip, tinting, alloy market.

I still enjoy doing a good Detail but won't post them as the cars will still have paint marks in them.

Then some of the cars I correct won't have tyre dressing or the arches done and someone will pick up on that...just cannot win.


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## Mirror Finish Details (Aug 21, 2008)

tim said:


> Rob, In my experience it is possible for ridges to be left when performing heavy correction where the tape line was originally. Very faint, almost like a ghost of where the 50/50 line was and are extremely difficult to remove once made.


Complete twaddle. The ridge soon evens out when you get compounding the otherside. You obvously don't know how to do it right.



RussZS said:


> It's like superglue that 3M tape!! I wouldn't put that on clearcoat!! The 'super low tack' is all a big lie!!


More twaddle. 3M proberbly spend millions developing the tape and I have never had a problem, actually I sometimes wish it stuck better. But, never had a problem with this stuff in years.


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## Brazo (Oct 27, 2005)

^^Mirror finish, people have had problems with 3m tape lifting dodgy repairs before, whilst its very unlikely to lift regular, properly adhered clearcoat I always stick it to my clothing first to de tack it slightly.


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## Miracle Detail (Jun 4, 2010)

Mirror Finish said:


> Complete twaddle. The ridge soon evens out when you get compounding the otherside. You obvously don't know how to do it right.
> 
> More twaddle. 3M proberbly spend millions developing the tape and I have never had a problem, actually I sometimes wish it stuck better. But, never had a problem with this stuff in years.


lol, I totally agree, I'll tell them to make some stickier tape for detailers!!

Kind Regards
Paul Dalton
Miracle Detail.


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## Mirror Finish Details (Aug 21, 2008)

Miracle Detail said:


> lol, I totally agree, I'll tell them to make some stickier tape for detailers!!
> 
> Kind Regards
> Paul Dalton
> Miracle Detail.


Cheers Paul!!!!


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## MidlandsCarCare (Feb 18, 2006)

It was sarcasm!!!!!!!!!


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## HeavenlyDetail (Sep 22, 2006)

RussZS said:


> It was sarcasm!!!!!!!!!


Nope we dont believe you , your now Russ3mtapeZS :lol:


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## MidlandsCarCare (Feb 18, 2006)

Haha okay. I do secretly hoard and use it though, but don't tell them!! :lol:


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## Mirror Finish Details (Aug 21, 2008)

RussZS said:


> It was sarcasm!!!!!!!!!


Ok "MrRuss3Msticktapetapetoosticky" dude!!!!

:thumb:


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## karl_liverpool (Sep 25, 2008)

i dont bother with the general blue tape, my dad uses low tack cream tape for picture framing to place images and silk items onto mounts. thats what i use its cracking stuff and cost's me a fiver for 6 rolls. i just order when he does to get a bulk discount.


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## danielhoworth (Jul 14, 2010)

vxrmarc said:


> Nope that's as intended and posted outside the studio in gtechnic section , if I had intended it to have been a full thread it would have been posted as such in the relevant section.
> The point your missing is not people showing 50/50 shots in their own threads it when they state they have done it and show how bad it is before yet never actually show after yet funnily lights were used and cameras seem to have taken good photos. As you state is very easy to start a website and slap a Nice car on there yet only picked up a machine polisher 3 months ago? How can that be good for the detailing industry as a whole if people are being let loose in others cars with zero experience yet seeing kerching in their eyes. I think if people are posting swirls before hand with lighting atleast show us the defects have been removed. Thats what full correction is about.


Everyones got to start somewhere or did you just wake up a pro one day? So what if they've been machining 3 month. You can't machine your own car every week and if the risks are explained to the customer/friend then I don't see the harm. At the end of the day if you make a mess then you pay for it fixing. Personally I don't see th harm at all


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## Beau Technique (Jun 21, 2010)

danielhoworth said:


> Everyones got to start somewhere or did you just wake up a pro one day? So what if they've been machining 3 month. You can't machine your own car every week and if the risks are explained to the customer/friend then I don't see the harm. At the end of the day if you make a mess then you pay for it fixing. Personally I don't see th harm at all


But are they happy that if you or anyone uninsured messes the paint up they have got to go without there car for a while to rectify the mess that has been done?
If they agree then thats there choice, a silly one but never the less, there choice.
Dont forget, many started off in trade valeting/paintshop backgrounds in controlled enviroments with people watching over them.


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## danielhoworth (Jul 14, 2010)

Beau Technique said:


> But are they happy that if you or anyone uninsured messes the paint up they have got to go without there car for a while to rectify the mess that has been done?
> If they agree then thats there choice, a silly one but never the less, there choice.
> Dont forget, many started off in trade valeting/paintshop backgrounds in controlled enviroments with people watching over them.


I understand where your coming from bud but as said people have to start somewhere. Tbh if you've read up and have had a good practice on a few panels/ cars I think it's hard to make a complete mess of it unless the user has no idea what they're doing. No one showed me how to do it, just learn from places such as this and people such as yourself then give it a go, taking into account what has been said.


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## HeavenlyDetail (Sep 22, 2006)

danielhoworth said:


> Tbh if you've read up and have had a good practice on a few panels/ cars I think it's hard to make a complete mess of it unless the user has no idea what they're doing.


You,d be surprised.
If people are happy to pay someone with no experience to do their car then thats their look out in my opinion , in 3 months you wont have even encountered 1% of problems that could arise like sticky paint or rock hard paintwork if you,ve only ever worked on soft paintwork etc and to find all this out on someone elses car who,s paying for the priviledge is not professional in my eyes as im sure half the guys label themselves detailers and probably dont state their experience or the fact they have never actually worked on Porsche Paintwork when they,ve only ever worked on soft Honda paintwork etc. Practicing on panels and scrap cars etc is one thing but doing it on someones pride and joy is another for the sake of learning at their expense.
Anyway this has sidetracked from the original thread so lets head back there thanks.


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## HeavenlyDetail (Sep 22, 2006)

karl_liverpool said:


> i dont bother with the general blue tape, my dad uses low tack cream tape for picture framing to place images and silk items onto mounts. thats what i use its cracking stuff and cost's me a fiver for 6 rolls. i just order when he does to get a bulk discount.


Karl is this the same kind of wax coated stuff or simple masking tape?


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## tim (May 2, 2006)

Gleammachine said:


> I understand the theory in your response Tim, but realistically I'm not sure it would be an issue, I've never seen any form of ghosting or line left from the tape, possibly if you removed 10 um one side and the 1 um the other, but even then I doubt it would be noticable.


This was not the general consensus amongst the Professionals at a recent Detailing day.

Perhaps you don't know what you're looking at.


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## Beau Technique (Jun 21, 2010)

Seems a touch insulting fella, almost saying he doesnt know his job.
Maybe show a little decorum.


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## Gleammachine (Sep 8, 2007)

tim said:


> This was not the general consensus amongst the Professionals at a recent Detailing day.
> 
> *Perhaps you don't know what you're looking at.*


Charming, perhaps you want to wind your neck in fella.

It has been discussed at great length in the pro's section, some feel that if you polish hard into the tape line it will leave a ridge, personally I don't cut aggressively into the tape line on 50/50's because for starters it's only a comparison and secondly I'm not keen on lifting the adhesive and spreading it around the panel, for this reason it's never been an issue for me, I can assure you though I will test it and if there was an evident ridge I would find it, I don't claim to know everything and am always willing to learn something new to better my skills.

Tim please don't question my integrity as a detailer, far from professional on your part.

Do you know what, comments like that make me wonder why I bother posting any form of opinion on here, everyone's an expert and ready to try and degrade something you've worked hard for over many years, my original response to your post wasn't by any means hostile, so the tone of your reply wasn't warranted or necessary!!!


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## daves2rs (May 7, 2007)

Beau Technique said:


> Dont forget, many started off in trade valeting/paintshop backgrounds in controlled enviroments with people watching over them.


Where some learned bad habits and old habits die hard.

Classic example, a good friend is a top notch panel beater\painter. I mean really good.....Painted my bumper last month and told him not to polish it. Picked it up and the bugger ran over it with FCP and said here you go :doublesho


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## Beau Technique (Jun 21, 2010)

Yes, agreed but this is where you, if that is what your interested in, will want to dealve futher and progress to the level of getting the finish right so even if it was bad habits, if your wanting to be better then your already on the way by wanting to go futher and willing to dealve deeper.
The main part is the controlled enviroment, insurance and knowing that if the job was potentially hashed up, it can be sorted.
If its done by average fred on your driveway with no insurance and only his car and a friends under there belt, strike through and what happens from there?


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## tim (May 2, 2006)

Rob first of all I'm sorry you've mistook my tone for a hostile one. It wasn't intended, I merely had little time to elaborate and I wanted to be frank.

Nevertheless, what is clear to me is the hypocrisy in your posts which I have highlighted.



Gleammachine said:


> I understand the theory in your response Tim, but realistically *I'm not sure* it would be an issue, *I've never seen* any form of ghosting or line left from the tape, possibly if you removed 10 um one side and the 1 um the other, but even then *I doubt it would be noticable*.


So if you don't actually know for sure then why did you dismiss my opinion? An unfounded opinion isn't exactly the sign of a professional.



Gleammachine said:


> Charming, perhaps you want to wind your neck in fella.
> 
> *It has been discussed at great length in the pro's section*, some feel that if you polish hard into the tape line it will leave a ridge, personally *I don't* cut aggressively into the tape line on 50/50's because for starters it's only a comparison and secondly I'm not keen on lifting the adhesive and spreading it around the panel, for this reason it's never been an issue for me, I can assure you though I will test it and if there was an evident ridge I would find it, *I don't claim to know everything* and am always willing to learn something new to better my skills.
> 
> Tim please *don't question* my integrity as a detailer, far from professional on your part.


On one hand you immediately dismissed my opinion and then once I dare question yours you then admit that my view is the same as many other professionals on this very forum but just not the same as your own. If you don't claim to know everything, then please open yourself more to understanding others more. Learning is the key to staying relevant in any industry. It is my belief that if you actually put 'my theory' into practice you'd soon see the rest of our point of view.

I think this is more about massaging ego's rather than who is right or wrong. My opinion may not be the same as your own but even through your own admission I am not the only one who subscribes to this belief.


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## tim (May 2, 2006)

Beau Technique said:


> Seems a touch insulting fella, almost saying he doesnt know his job.
> Maybe show a little decorum.


So you think I should massage your ego more like most users on here?

It is not insulting it is my opinion and it is a founded one. I believe you'll find just because you've decided to pay a mere £150 here doesn't entitle you to any more or less respect otherwise. Respect is earned, never an entitlement. It is all the more the unworthy when it is demanded.

In fact I'll go and pay my £150 now, will that mean you'll have more respect for my opinion then?


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## The_Bouncer (Nov 24, 2010)

No such thing as a 'Valet' in the UK anymore..... what with all the VW / Citreon / Ford forums available on the web, everyone 'Details' - the word valet has been left back in the day when your dad got out the MK2 Cortina and spent ages buffing up with a tin of Lavender wax, a few sweaty old T shirts and a cheap Leather using the Soapy Foam One Bucket Method

It's just a word that has replaced a word IMHO - The difference is the distinquish between Pro Level paint Correction and proprer cleaning methods to cleaning the bird crap of your Saxo VTS Mirror Housing.... yay for Detailed Mirrors...... 

If one of those forum members logged on to their chosen marque forum and said " Woop just valeted my Corsa SXi' they would be laughed off - It's just the way English lanquage has changed - an old English word..... Must be a Nincompoop )

( p.s - nothing against any car marques or owners here. ) & sorry, somewhat off topic...


nin·com·poop/ˈninkəmˌpo͞op/
Noun: A foolish or stupid person


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## Gleammachine (Sep 8, 2007)

tim said:


> Rob first of all I'm sorry you've mistook my tone for a hostile one. It wasn't intended, I merely had little time to elaborate and I wanted to be frank.
> 
> Nevertheless, what is clear to me is the hypocrisy in your posts which I have highlighted.
> 
> ...


Tim, I didn't dismiss your opinion, I stated that I have never come across it, but had the decency to not do it in a condescending way, I claimed realistically it wouldn't be an issue, hence the reason I haven't been subject to it.

I wouldn't expect nor want you to massage me ego, but your remark was trying to belittle me in regards to claiming I am unable to know what a defect looks like or i am putting the ridge in and not seeing it.

As explained I would only do a 50/50 for the purpose of a write-up on the forum (1 in 10 details), with my technique there is no way a ridge would be inflicted as I wouldn't polish aggressively right into the tape line, also most of my correctional details involve the use of wool, so the ridge is less likely to be inflicted or evident.
Had I come across it before then we wouldn't be having this online conversation, and it is not a case of me not seeing.

Having done some of my own testing a little while ago, I can confirm a ridge can be put in, this was done using an extreme polishing technique and not something I would typically practice for a comparison, the ridge is quite evident and can be seen from 6ft away, hardly something that I or my customers are hardly likely to miss.


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## tim (May 2, 2006)

I'm sorry Rob, but now you are just going round in circles. I'm not going to argue with you, but merely pointing out the facts and how you just keep contradicting yourself.


Gleammachine said:


> *I've never seen any form of ghosting or line*





Gleammachine said:


> *I can confirm a ridge can be put in*





Gleammachine said:


> *I stated that I have never come across it*


Jumping back and forth.



Gleammachine said:


> *but even then I doubt it would be noticable*.





Gleammachine said:


> *the ridge is quite evident and can be seen from 6ft away*





Gleammachine said:


> *Had I come across it before then we wouldn't be having this online conversation*


Jumping back and forth again.



Gleammachine said:


> *also most of my correctional details involve the use of wool, so the ridge is less likely to be inflicted or evident.*


Wool has nothing to do with it and in fact in my opinion Wool will generally increases the chances of a ridge due to the higher removal rates.

And for all of those about to jump on the bandwagon. There is no misquotation here or taking things out of context. It just taking one sentence from the 1st post following it by another.


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## Gleammachine (Sep 8, 2007)

tim said:


> I'm sorry Rob, but now you are just going round in circles. I'm not going to argue with you, but merely pointing out the facts and how you just keep contradicting yourself.
> 
> Jumping back and forth.
> 
> ...


Now you are being stupid and mixing the 2 posts around, I originally stated I'd never come across an evident ridge before from a 50/50 using my technique and can only remark from personal experiences, of which I stand by, but later stated after testing (of which i stated i would happily do) that using an aggressive approach with foam I could put a clearly visible ridge in. 
It's quite easy to pick statements from each post and make something appear that it is not, not really interested in a reply from you as your only twisting my words now.
Had you made a reasonable response to my reply to start with, instead of claiming I don't know what I'm looking for, this would have made for a far better debate.


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## Gleammachine (Sep 8, 2007)

tim said:


> Wool has nothing to do with it and in fact in my opinion Wool will generally increases the chances of a ridge due to the higher removal rates.


I have my suspicions that it's not down to clearcoat removal causing the ridge, but heat generated possibly moving the clearcoat against the hard line of the tape.
So wool would have a lot to do with it, because it runs a lot cooler and doesn't generate as much heat, upon testing I didn't have an issue with wool and also the contact to the paint isn't a constant firm flat surface like it would be from foam.

Easy to dismiss someone elses opinion, isn't it? makes us human.


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## tim (May 2, 2006)

It took you 40 minutes to come up with that, seriously? 

Stop digging.


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## Gleammachine (Sep 8, 2007)

tim said:


> It took you 40 minutes to come up with that, seriously?
> 
> Stop digging.


Just the response I expected after your recent reply's, your contribution to the thread a worthwhile one.


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## VIPER (May 30, 2007)

I think we'll draw this to a conclusion gents as I can't see anything beneficial coming out of it.


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