# Rotary Practice Night - Flex PE14 150-2



## EVO6RSS (Sep 11, 2015)

Right then peeps..

Having been practicing with my 3401 for a while now on different pad and abrasive combinations, I guess you could say I was getting confident, good enough to have a crack with a rotary, in my own head maybe.. :doublesho

So tonight, I broke the beast out and went to town with it..on a knackered old fiesta bonnet.. 

The practice panel in question:










The section to be worked..










Close up of clear coat failure and general trashiness..:thumb:










To prove I actualy went to the trouble of decon/de-tar/clay before polishing this paint.. A reflection shot..










1st Step - Compounding - Menzerna FG400/Cyan Lake Country Hydro Tech/Speed 1-3 and back down again.










Quick PTG reading:










Result - Thats a bit ugly and hologram filled.. hmm:










Another PTG reading to see what we took off - arghh 15 microns:










Maybe it will clean up with some Menzerna 3800 and a Finishing Pad:










Well it does look better, more gloss for sure, but those light sources look a bit iffy:










Let turn all the lights off an get out the sun gun.. arghh.. what have I done:










Always remember be ruthless with lighting..










At this point I was thinking, OMG, I burnt the paint because on the first pass with FG400 and speed 3, the panel started to get pretty hot, like i could smell it. So I turned the machine off and let it cool down. Jesus the flex rotary has some serious power..

So what to do.. Well I'm not going near it with FG400 again, despite that compound being required to achieve correction with the 3401 on this panel.

Lets hit it with some 2500 and a polishing pad and speed 2 max and see where we get:










Not looking as bad:










OK.. so where now.. back to 3800 and speed 1 and see where we get..










I worked this set long and slow and came out looking a lot better. Sorry no ruthless lighting shot, got a bit excited.










So then I thought, I wonder if the 3401 will enhance it any further... The answer being I don't think so..










So one more pass with the PE14 on speed 1 with a crimson finishing pad and 3800 to see if I can mess up the finish.. Answer no i can't..










And again:










None of the photo's have been messed with, straight out of an iPhone and then uploaded to photo bucket.

What have i learnt.. hmm. Well you can compound paint very quickly with a rotary and make proper mess of it. Now bear in mind, previous experience of this tool was zero, it got taken out of the box tonight.

I have been using a 3401 for about 12 months. The 3401 is forced rotation so i am really comfortable with that walking feeling you get with it. It's telling you put the pad flat on the panel and as such will kick a little over transitions. The PE14 just runs away on you, especially above speed 2 and with compounds that exhibit less lubrication than polishes.

But what it does do, it jewesl fantastically.. On lower speeds with more supple pads it feels great. The crimson LK pad on 3800 didn't feel much different to the 3401, just less vibration and the 3401 needs to be run on speed 3. The PE14 on speed 1.

Much more practice needed before I go near an actual car, especially some one else's, but initial results are encouraging. I will see if I can get a ruthless lighting shot of the last passes tomorrow, it's not like the panel is going anywhere.

Cheers,

EVO6RSS.


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## Titanium Htail (Mar 24, 2012)

A very informative review the very reason the idea of trying initially is a good starting point, the forced rotation an indication as to the effectiveness of these machines. It is all about getting your test section right with the least aggressive combo first. 

John Tht.


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## EVO6RSS (Sep 11, 2015)

Titanium Htail said:


> A very informative review the very reason the idea of trying initially is a good starting point, the forced rotation an indication as to the effectiveness of these machines. It is all about getting your test section right with the least aggressive combo first.
> 
> John Tht.


John,

I agree completely and the aggressiveness of cut over the 3401 really surprised me considering the forced rotation 3401 is considered a beast in the DA world.

However, that said, please note this was an experiment, I would never contemplate going in with FG400 first irrespective of panel condition on an actual car.

Please see the thread in the showroom, where I detailed my good friends XKR. We started at 3800 LK crimson and only worked up to 3500 LK tangerine with minimal CC removal.

I'm struggling with the concept of zenith point/zenith plateau on aggressive compounds like FG400, on speed 3, with well primed cyan pad this thing was going to burn the paint after 3-4 passes. Now I get that ford paint isn't rock hard, but paint hardness aside, the panel will only dissipate so much heat and this thing makes lots of heat even on speed 3. 1800-2000 RPM is like speed 4-5.. That's nuts..

I don't know if FG400 is a diminishing abrasive, I suspect it is as PB state that it's milled aluminium oxide.

I am actually going to have another crack tonight and work through the steps again.

Compound steps:


Spread Polish - Speed 1 - 2 Section Passes
Move Up to Speed 2 maybe 2 1/2 - 3-4 section passes keeping an eye on abrasive breakdown 
Back down to speed 1 - 3-4 more section passes to ensure full breakdown
Check correction

I suspect the pad is having a serious impact on the finish. I think I need to get some softer jewelling pads for the rotary to experiment with. Thing is, this product is stated to finish down very well, usually with only minimal enhancement with 3800. I didn't find that to be the case at all, but I do appreciate all paints respond differently to polishing and that technique plays a massive part with the rotary..

Anyho.. More experimentation required.

EVO6RSS..


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## lowejackson (Feb 23, 2006)

Nice work, your initial work was far better than my first attempt with a rotary. It is always worth trying different pads as some seem to work better on certain paints. I am a huge fan of the 3M pads, especially the yellow (polishing) and blue (finishing) which are very soft compared to most other brands but to my mind work very well on a wide range of paints


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## DavieB (Aug 14, 2009)

Compounding in my eyes no need to try to finish down as you discovered it leaves a mess. It is for rapid defect removal, look at your own paint readings as to how much paint you removed! You get the finish through the polishing stages.


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## galamaa (Aug 3, 2014)

My suggest for you - try Sonax perfect finish with rotary. Hard to get hologram with this polish. Yes 3M yellow and blue are good thing


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## EVO6RSS (Sep 11, 2015)

DavieB said:


> Compounding in my eyes no need to try to finish down as you discovered it leaves a mess. It is for rapid defect removal, look at your own paint readings as to how much paint you removed! You get the finish through the polishing stages.


Yes, I removed a bunch, that's the point of a practice panel and the experiment. FG400 is advertised as compound with high gloss that finishes down nicely, I wanted to see what it would do with a rotary.

I will experiment with different pads and the same compound and see what the removal rates do and the finish, which I will document in this thread. Whilst I agree FG400 is never gonna be a one step, it would be nice, if you had to use it you didn't have to 3 step it.

It is only through trying different combo's and seeing what actually works, that you learn IMO.. And I've got a lot to learn..

EVO6RSS..


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## EVO6RSS (Sep 11, 2015)

galamaa said:


> My suggest for you - try Sonax perfect finish with rotary. Hard to get hologram with this polish. Yes 3M yellow and blue are good thing


Thanks for the suggestion, I'll have a look at it. 3m pads have been mentioned as well..


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## cblack32 (Apr 13, 2015)

Getting a good finish with a rotary takes a lot of practice, patience and experience to feel comfortable using one. You're definitely going about things the right way by using a test panel, as you need to make the mistakes and know the limits of your machine.

A few pointers may help, firstly start on a much slower speed. Something like 600-800rpm, evaluate the results after a few passes and slowly bump the speed up as you go, checking your results and get to know what results you can expect from a certain amount of passes at a certain speed. Also, rotary polishers don't need to be run at the speeds that DA polishers do, they are much more capable of cutting. Running at a slower speed such as 1500rpm or so should give you enough time to work and break the polish down without the panel getting too hot, given you are not working on too small an area.

Second tip would just to not apply as much pressure as you're used to with the 3401, keep a decent arm speed and try and be as smooth and consistent with your movements and pressure as you can as any sudden changes in direction/pressure will reveal themselves under inspection as holograms etc. It is also much easier to practice and get a good feel for this at slower speeds.

Stick with it, be patient and practice and you'll get the hang of it


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## EVO6RSS (Sep 11, 2015)

cblack32 said:


> A few pointers may help, firstly start on a much slower speed. Something like 600-800rpm, evaluate the results after a few passes and slowly bump the speed up as you go, checking your results and get to know what results you can expect from a certain amount of passes at a certain speed.


Ok, cool. I will try that.



cblack32 said:


> Also, rotary polishers don't need to be run at the speeds that DA polishers do, they are much more capable of cutting. Running at a slower speed such as 1500rpm or so should give you enough time to work and break the polish down without the panel getting too hot, given you are not working on too small an area.


Thanks, suspect I may have been working to small an area.



cblack32 said:


> Second tip would just to not apply as much pressure as you're used to with the 3401, keep a decent arm speed and try and be as smooth and consistent with your movements and pressure as you can as any sudden changes in direction/pressure will reveal themselves under inspection as holograms etc.


Got it. I suspect the very firm compounding pad, in combination with a poor technique and me trying this on a curved part of the panel was giving rise to the poor result.

Defo have another go over the Easter break. Great advice thanks..


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## cblack32 (Apr 13, 2015)

No worries mate, any time. 

I'm interested to see how you get on. The results you can get from a rotary are incredible once you know how to use it properly


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## m4rkymark (Aug 17, 2014)

I would suggest sonax perfect finish as well, it'd very easy to use and I've always had good results from it.


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## Paul.D (Jun 26, 2013)

Evo
Just some advice as to how i use mine 
one pass at lowest speed to spread out polish 
once spread turn the machine up to 3 and another 3-4 passes going left and right and up and down overlapping by 25% of the previous pass 
reduce speed to lowest machine will run at and another 2-3 passes laeft right up and down.

I never apply pressure to the machine just use the machines own weight this will be plently unless removing very deep scratches which will not come out after the first method.

Hope this makes sense.

Another thing to try is prime a semi hard pad i.e polishing then get your spare panel turn the machine on and let it wander across the panel but by twisting the handle gently one way or another you can make it walk which way you want it to go, then go up and down will make it walk backwards and forwards this will teach you how to use the machine so it does not wander and give you greater control over it.


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## EVO6RSS (Sep 11, 2015)

Paul.D,

Thanks for that info.. I have a few more sessions and am getting a little better, especially with controlling the machine. I think i just went in with a speed that was to high and a very stiff pad. 

I'm waiting on ordering a few more pad combo's to try out. 

I suspect the hydro techs are great pad on the 3401 DA, however a bit too stiff on the PE14 rotary. Gonna try to hybrid pads and see how I get on. I really like the Lake Country pads, so I am gonna try a few from there range first. Might also have a go with so CCS pads as well..

EVO6RSS.


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## lowejackson (Feb 23, 2006)

This chart shows the difference between using a DA and rotary using the same pads and polishes. There is another one but cannot find it










From this thread http://www.meguiarsonline.com/forums/showthread.php?36535-Meguiar-s-M105-M205-Polish-and-Pad-Chart


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## EVO6RSS (Sep 11, 2015)

Interesting looks like you can basically take a step down in pad then, if I am reading the chart right..


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Paul.D (Jun 26, 2013)

EVO6RSS said:


> Paul.D,
> 
> Thanks for that info.. I have a few more sessions and am getting a little better, especially with controlling the machine. I think i just went in with a speed that was to high and a very stiff pad.
> 
> ...


Dont forget that the backing plate will have a effect on the pad as well a hard backing plate and hard pad will make life much harder than a hard pad and softer backing plate.


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## chewy_ (Mar 5, 2014)

Paul.D said:


> Dont forget that the backing plate will have a effect on the pad as well a hard backing plate and hard pad will make life much harder than a hard pad and softer backing plate.


I've noted down all yor tips as I'm getting a rotary soon.

Which backing plate would you recommend? I was looking at both of these http://www.cleanyourcar.co.uk/polishing-accessories/m14-rotary-backing-plates/3m-rotary-backing-plate-125mm-m14-soft/prod_1110.html

http://www.cleanyourcar.co.uk/car-polish-compounds/3m-polish/3m-perfect-it-iii-rotary-backing-plate-125mm-m14/prod_758.html


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## EVO6RSS (Sep 11, 2015)

Paul.D said:


> Dont forget that the backing plate will have a effect on the pad as well a hard backing plate and hard pad will make life much harder than a hard pad and softer backing plate.


Paul,

I went for the soft flexipads backing plates. They seem good.. Iv'e been out and have some results to post up. Just uploading the pics now. :buffer:


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## EVO6RSS (Sep 11, 2015)

Chaps,

Thanks to everyone for the really useful posts and advise so far on this thread..

First off.. I have ditched the Cyan pad as it's far to aggressive for this paint. Following the pad/polish infographic posted by lowejackson I am using LK Tangerine and Crimson hydro techs plus a black LK hybrid as this is the only hybrid pad I have at the moment.

In terms of abrasives, I am sticking with a 3 step of FG400, 2500 and then 3800. Why, I know the cut I will get, but this is about feel. The FG400 has significantly less lubricity than 3800 and as such feels different to work, is grabbier and less forgiving and I need to get a feel for this..

Taking on board the advise from Paul.D with regard to learning to control the machine by gentle tipping/twisting the wrist, this advise is pure gold dust. The amount of tip required to achieve a controlled direction change is very small and quite subtle, but after practicing it for all sets i can now get the machine to cross hatch with one hand :thumb: using the other hand as guard over the top of the machine.. It really is very satisfying to get the machine do the work for you instead of fighting it. :wall:

Here are tonights results..

*The trusty practice panel looking suitably trashed:*










*Tonights selection of pads:*










I included the 4in pads in case I couldn't get to grips with the 5.5in pads. But I seemed to fair ok with the 5.5in pads.. Lots of practice still required mind.

*First Combo - LK Tangerine and Menzerna FG400:*










*Result:*










I'm really quite pleased with this, much better than the first attempt, little or no holograms or buffer trails.  The panel however has seen much better days, lots of stone chips and cracks in the clear coat..

*Second Combo - LK Crimson and Menzerna 2500:*










*Result:*










Starting to look better, to be honest could have skipped this step and gone straight to 3800 but as stated earlier, this is learning experience and about developing feel.

*Final Combo - LK Black Hybrid and Menzerna 3800:*










This is normally my go to glazing pad on the 3401. No cut, super soft and works like a charm with Auto Finesse Ultra Glaze..

This pad was actually a pleasure to work with on the PE14, much more control than the hydro techs and really showed me what a lot of you guys have been taking about with regard to trying different pads. So will be getting some different pads ordered asap to play with.

*Result: *










To be honest, looking pretty good for a knackered panel..

All sets followed Paul.D's advise, no pressure apart from machine weight, I only crept my speed unto 2 1/2 to engage the abrasives and then came down to 1 for the final couple of sets.

Only the final refinement with 3800 i ran the machine at the slowest speed for the final 2 sets.

Thanks for looking, hope this helps people looking to pick up some skills on the rotary..

EVO6RSS..


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## Paul.D (Jun 26, 2013)

chewy_ said:


> I've noted down all yor tips as I'm getting a rotary soon.
> 
> Which backing plate would you recommend? I was looking at both of these http://www.cleanyourcar.co.uk/polishing-accessories/m14-rotary-backing-plates/3m-rotary-backing-plate-125mm-m14-soft/prod_1110.html
> 
> http://www.cleanyourcar.co.uk/car-polish-compounds/3m-polish/3m-perfect-it-iii-rotary-backing-plate-125mm-m14/prod_758.html


I have the perfect it one. I find it great the edges have enough give in them to allow for contour changes in the panels and when polishing thin areas like window edges and I'm being too lazy to get the 2" pads out


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## Paul.D (Jun 26, 2013)

EVO6RSS said:


> Paul,
> 
> I went for the soft flexipads backing plates. They seem good.. Iv'e been out and have some results to post up. Just uploading the pics now. :buffer:


I have a couple of the smaller backing plate from flexipads and to be fair there's not much difference between them and the 3m perfect it one which I have.

The only thing I have found with the flexi pads ones is they will crease and need pushing back into shape if you do them up too tight on the machine.


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## Paul.D (Jun 26, 2013)

Evo ,

*In terms of abrasives, I am sticking with a 3 step of FG400, 2500 and then 3800. Why, I know the cut I will get, but this is about feel. The FG400 has significantly less lubricity than 3800 and as such feels different to work, is grabbier and less forgiving and I need to get a feel for this.. *

I havent used Merzerna polishes so I am not sure if this will work but its what i do with megs 105, keep a spray bottle of water handy when compounding and once you find it starts to get grabby give it a light spray to loosen the compound. you might find you then get some spray off the pads but it will give a better finish.

*Taking on board the advise from Paul.D with regard to learning to control the machine by gentle tipping/twisting the wrist, this advise is pure gold dust. The amount of tip required to achieve a controlled direction change is very small and quite subtle, but after practicing it for all sets i can now get the machine to cross hatch with one hand :thumb: using the other hand as guard over the top of the machine.. It really is very satisfying to get the machine do the work for you instead of fighting it. :wall:*

Glad to find you got the hang of what i was trying to tell you, you will be able to machine polish for a full day once you have this mastered and not feel knackered after half a car. :lol:

*Result: *










*To be honest, looking pretty good for a knackered panel.. *

Panel looks good from the pics. If you find you still have some marks in the panel after compound stage you might need to go again and do another set. But at least working this way you will not trash your paint and only take off the paint which you have to remove.

*All sets followed Paul.D's advise, no pressure apart from machine weight, I only crept my speed unto 2 1/2 to engage the abrasives and then came down to 1 for the final couple of sets. *

Dont foret when you go to vertical panels you will then need to apply pressure to the machine to get the cut. I tend to use a thumb on the head (your guard hand) to apply the small amount of pressure needed.

*Only the final refinement with 3800 i ran the machine at the slowest speed for the final 2 sets. *

The run up to level 3 will help break down the compounds and refine the finish, the turn down to the lowest setting will jewel the paint bringing out the shine and mirror finish you are looking for.

Keep us updated :thumb:


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## chewy_ (Mar 5, 2014)

Paul.D said:


> I have the perfect it one. I find it great the edges have enough give in them to allow for contour changes in the panels and when polishing thin areas like window edges and I'm being too lazy to get the 2" pads out


Thanks Paul, just read your helpful post cheers


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