# BH autobalm VS SRP/EGP/Colli 476s



## Ultimate (Feb 18, 2007)

hi all,

well its a week after i out a 50/50 of the above on my bonnet, and some very different results when i came to wash it!

when i rinsed the car before any washing the colli side beaded off, and on the bh side the water just sat there. 
onto a wash with autowash and the colli side did have a silkier feel to it than the BH.
now the final rinse and colli sheeted/beaded in a few moments but..........this photo shows that the BH still hadn't sheeted some 3 minutes later. the water just sat there! you can even see where i went a bit mad with the BH down near the grill and encroached on the colli side. this is very different to the sheeting test i did a week ago when BH wasn to far behind colli.

how have others found the sheeting on BH? i clayed first and did 2 coats, but seems the sheeting has slowed alot over the past week


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## isherdholi (Sep 18, 2007)

After just a week? That's strange. My money would have probably been on the Auto-balm for sheeting. Hmm. Something doesn't seem quite right.


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## Bigpikle (May 21, 2007)

it sheets slower than most waxes & sealants, but should have sheeted off the water fairly completely IMHO...what is the shampoo you're using?

edit - just saw its Autowash - so now I'm confused


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## isherdholi (Sep 18, 2007)

Seems to perform quite well in this test, albeit slightly slower than Royale: -

http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=70386

I dare say Auto-balm will be miles ahead of Colly (and probably any other LSP) if you ever did a salt spray test  as this is what Auto-balm is formulated for.

By the way, how many layers of Auto-balm did you apply? Also, how many layers of SRP/EGP/476 did you apply?


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## Ultimate (Feb 18, 2007)

me too im lost as to why its not sheeting. i have put another 2 coats on so will see what next week brings. i have used last touch 1:1 with water as a drying aid, thats all i can think of. its diluted though so hope it woudlnt affect AB as i always use it as drying aid


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## Ultimate (Feb 18, 2007)

isherdholi said:


> Seems to perform quite well in this test, albeit slightly slower than Royale: -
> 
> http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=70386


yes mine was like that last week.


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## Bigpikle (May 21, 2007)

so is there LT on the paint in the original picture or is that simply AB on the paint before the LT?


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## mark1319 (Sep 9, 2007)

This has happened to me several times and I don't have a clue why either. It just sat there on the whole car so your not alone.


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## CleanYourCar (Jan 23, 2006)

isherdholi said:


> Seems to perform quite well in this test, albeit slightly slower than Royale: -
> 
> http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=70386
> 
> ...


I'm not sure it will be miles better against salt. Collinite waxes were originally developed as boat waxes then later re-tinned for cars. The boat waxes have won boat awards so have to be pretty durable for marine use.

Tim


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## Ultimate (Feb 18, 2007)

Bigpikle said:


> so is there LT on the paint in the original picture or is that simply AB on the paint before the LT?


its before LT just an open hose been on it


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## Ultimate (Feb 18, 2007)

mark1319 said:


> This has happened to me several times and I don't have a clue why either. It just sat there on the whole car so your not alone.


oh glad its not just me, it is disappointing i was very much sold on this product up until now, it makes drying a pain. maybe next week will be different now theres two more layers, heres hoping


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## Ultimate (Feb 18, 2007)

isherdholi said:


> Seems to perform quite well in this test, albeit slightly slower than Royale: -
> 
> http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=70386
> 
> ...


there was 2 layers of AB and 1 of each for SRP EGP colli


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## PWOOD (Apr 30, 2007)

AB was applied neat to the paint then not over SRP. Sorry nightshift making me a tad dense

The reason I ask is I tried a coat over SRP and it just did not look right compared with a wipe down and application direct to neat paintwork. 

I asked over on the BH forum if it can be topped with Megs UQD but so far no answer. Anyone tried it. I would but dont want to mess with the finish till I see how long its holds up on its jack jones.


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## Dave KG (Feb 23, 2006)

An interesting result, and proof if ever it was needed that some LSPs last better than others in differing conditions... perhaps your car has been subject to a contaminant that has stripped or eroded the BH but the Collinite has remained true.. 

I experience this also with Zaino - its very durable, but it just cannot defend against bird lime up here in Scotland the way Collinite can, its something that Zaino on my car doesn't protect well against. 

Thinking caps on, and we can get to the bottom of it I'm sure


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## Shiny (Apr 23, 2007)

Dave, would topping the BH AB with a layer of Collinite be a good solution?


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## PWOOD (Apr 30, 2007)

Wax interferes with the AB according to Bilt Hamber as they all have some cleansers in them. I do wonder how much though.


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## isherdholi (Sep 18, 2007)

Dave KG - Your new avatar is very fitting! Just don't start speaking like Yoda!! That would be funny. "Spritz the pad with QD, you must." :lol:


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## nsanity (May 7, 2007)

I gave my car a wash yesterday, and noticed this too. Doesn't sheet water off an open hose very well. But later on it rained (of course since I washed the car that day) and the rain was beading nicely on the car, so I dont know...


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## Dave KG (Feb 23, 2006)

isherdholi said:


> Dave KG - Your new avatar is very fitting! Just don't start speaking like Yoda!! That would be funny. "Spritz the pad with QD, you must." :lol:


As mentioned above, all waxes contain some solvents and this can in some cases remove a little of the underlying LSP layers. But, you can layer many LSPs happily over each other so I dont see it being a huge problem with AB in this regard, not sure about how a wax would take t AB but this just sounds like something I need to check in the old detailing lab 



Shiny said:


> Dave, would topping the BH AB with a layer of Collinite be a good solution?


Blame Dom, all his fault! Hard to see, the shiny side is


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## isherdholi (Sep 18, 2007)

^^^ I see what you did there. Very clever


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## lanciamug (May 18, 2008)

Dave, this brings us back to a discussion we had on another thread. Different LSPs with water in various ways, wax beads well, sealents don't. If we don't relate the extent of beading to the protection provided, how do we tell when our LSP has given up the fight wuth the elements? Discuss!


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## Dave KG (Feb 23, 2006)

lanciamug said:


> Dave, this brings us back to a discussion we had on another thread. Different LSPs with water in various ways, wax beads well, sealents don't. If we don't relate the extent of beading to the protection provided, how do we tell when our LSP has given up the fight wuth the elements? Discuss!


The (to me) fail safe way of seeing if an LSP is still on the paint is the "squeak test" - that is, uncurl a twisted microfibre quickly on the paint and if it squeaks it points to there being little or no protection present... Beading is a poor measure, as perfectly clean, perfectly unprotected paint will happily bead water and quite tightly, the main factor controlling it is the smoothness of the paint over and above what LSP is there... you could put a tight beading wax on rough paint and the beading would be poor, clay it and you'd see significant improvement.

Re: protection, then it also comes down to protection from what? UV? Some products are naturally better than others at this, even from the world go and gauging how this drops off over time is very difficult and thats just one small example of a "contaminant" that LSPs must protect against...


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## tribs (Jun 18, 2007)

Ultimate said:


> oh glad its not just me, it is disappointing i was very much sold on this product up until now, it makes drying a pain. maybe next week will be different now theres two more layers, heres hoping


I've had this too. Is it possible you used to much water? At first I followed advice on here to use a very damp pad and apply very lightly. I may have overdone this on my first layers and I experienced the same thing.

I added some further layers and was not as stingy with the product and used a slightly damp pad rather than quite a wet one and I've not had the same issues with sheeting since.

The only other possibility is I used snow foam prior to the wash where I experienced this and I have not done since. Is it possible it could be sensitive to some ingredients in that?



PWOOD said:


> AB was applied neat to the paint then not over SRP. Sorry nightshift making me a tad dense
> 
> The reason I ask is I tried a coat over SRP and it just did not look right compared with a wipe down and application direct to neat paintwork.
> 
> I asked over on the BH forum if it can be topped with Megs UQD but so far no answer. Anyone tried it. I would but dont want to mess with the finish till I see how long its holds up on its jack jones.


PWOOD, I have also topped with UQD without problems although it didn't add a lot to beading and sheeting (it was pretty good beforehand). Added a little gloss and shine to the solid black VAG paint though IMO.


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## PDK (Apr 14, 2008)

I've found exactly the same issues with water just "pooling", no beading, no sheeting, just lying there, I like the looks, but I'm thinking of just going back to a carnuba..., as drying is becoming a real chore

Maybe one of the BH guys will chime in and solve this riddle


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## _daveR (Jun 3, 2008)

Not liking the sound of this as I've got some turning up tomorrow to use on our old faded Audi


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## PJS (Aug 18, 2007)

Ultimate, I'm not one for getting overly concerned about beading and sheeting - it's immaterial to the protection aspect, and for me, is a red herring when used as an argument for or against other LSP's.
Now, that said, I'm going to suggest a couple of things to try:
1) wash with warm water, and if possible rinse using warm water too
2) if rinsing with cold is the only option available, then consider a water filter - whether the Peerless one from The Polishing Company, or the Aquagleam from ProDetailing or Ultimate Finish.

I'm assuming you've rinsed the shampoo thoroughly and are sheeting the water through an open hose end, not the spray head?
Windscreen doesn't look like it, and I suspect you've either not rinsed sufficiently, or you've not had enough shampoo in the bucket, - so it's not properly cleaned.
Very hard to say from a static image, but that's my immediate impressions.


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## Ultimate (Feb 18, 2007)

PJS said:


> Ultimate, I'm not one for getting overly concerned about beading and sheeting - it's immaterial to the protection aspect, and for me, is a red herring when used as an argument for or against other LSP's.
> Now, that said, I'm going to suggest a couple of things to try:
> 1) wash with warm water, and if possible rinse using warm water too
> 2) if rinsing with cold is the only option available, then consider a water filter - whether the Peerless one from The Polishing Company, or the Aquagleam from ProDetailing or Ultimate Finish.
> ...


hi to clear up some confusion.
The bonnet was clayed all over, just auotbalm on the left 2 coats and on the right SRP/EGP/Colli one coat of each.

PJS the car was definately clean and waashosed with an open hose (ignore the screen that was from when i sprayed the bonnet.
I realise that the beading and sheeting isn't essential fo protection but my concern is ease of cleaning, when it pols water it make drying a PITA compared to colli.

This has raised some interesting discussion and it seems im nt alone with this sheeting trouble. The correction is excellent but i reserve judgement on autobalm for now!! will see what happens at the weekend come the next wash

Any thoughts on this BH??


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## isherdholi (Sep 18, 2007)

I think BH would have been more likely to respond if this thread was in their section.

Might be worth dropping a link to this thread in a quick PM.


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## PJS (Aug 18, 2007)

BHL is up to his neck with the new build, so the Kid may step in with a reply.
As I said previously, it's only an issue/"trouble" depending on what weight you apply to the sheeting aspect.
I don't sheet - I use the fine mist spray from the Flash unit on filter mode, so I'm left with a fair bit of water anyway, so it's not something I've been acutely aware of as a potential negative.


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## PWOOD (Apr 30, 2007)

Dry day so 2nd coat applied. Nice wax like glow to the paint sort of inbetween that and a sealant. Filled in the micro swirls very well. Tub looks like its not been touched.


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## Ultimate (Feb 18, 2007)

PWOOD said:


> Dry day so 2nd coat applied. Nice wax like glow to the paint sort of inbetween that and a sealant. Filled in the micro swirls very well. Tub looks like its not been touched.


nice job, would be interested how you find the sheeting in week or so


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## PWOOD (Apr 30, 2007)

When I washed the car prior to second coat I noticed more water lying in sheets on the roof and bonnet. It appears to sheet very slowly. On the one coat when it rained the beads were a lot bigger than the SRP coating I had previous. 

The fact it can go over plastic trim and not stain plus enhance it was the deciding factor for me along with good swirl masking. I have some Megs UQD which sheets water off better than any LSP I have tried and as no one has said it will harm my BH AB's longevity I will try it. Thats when I have finished layering the AB of course as its rather easy to do. How many coats before I start wasting my time anyone?


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## Tyrrell (Jan 29, 2007)

PWOOD 

I had the same issue with my first application of AB but two days ago i gave my car a clean and reapplied the AB again and later that night it rained and my car beaded nicely and also when i drove the water rolled off the paintwork nicely and left the finish looking really good. I think that i'm just gonna give the car a coat of AB every week and really build up the protection, i'm sure it'll get better with each application. 

I love AB, when my car was sitting in the sun the day after the rain i notice a few swirls that i hadn't noticed bofore so i used a bit of AB and it filled the swirls leaving a flawless finish!!


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## PJS (Aug 18, 2007)

Whilst you can layer as much AB onto the car as you please, the shared view is 2 is fine, 3 is a bit so-so, 4 and more is simply just not needed for any reason.
AB is a very different type of sealant to the rest.
That said, I'd even only put 2-3 layers on of Zaino/Duragloss/etc, as I just don't believe you get the intended outcome from multilayering - but no doubt there'll be a number who claim it looks better and better the more you put on.
Placebo effect? Perhaps, but then it's not like we all have to do the same as what everyone else does, and finding our own level of 'overboardness' is what it's all about.


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## Ultimate (Feb 18, 2007)

right i have washed the car again today, and still the same lack of sheeting.

I dunno why its doing this!! I have also seem to be getting waterspot etching from the recent rain. The only thing i have changed is going from GoldCLass to BH autowash.

Have got a video i will post later


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## Bilt-Hamber Lab (Apr 11, 2008)

Autobalm was develped as a protective LSP - its does this by providing a truly continuous film, this creates an even surface tension (but it's not as low as wax, or silicone) so water beading is not as strong with this material as say carnauba. However its protection depends on this uniformity and in accelerated corrosion tests waxes just can't compete. It's also the case that for swirl reduction the continuous film is the key - light reflection is uniform. After washing the hyrophobic tails that are present in Autobalms film can be "flattened" by the surfactants in the wash. But upon through drying they'll be back to normal, hence the rain water effect mentioned above. 

I suppose for those wanting rapid water shifting and beading the lowest surface-tension materials will be of interest - we have some lab samples that are surving 10 + scrubbing sessions ( 30 second scrub over 4 x 2 inch area) with neat dish washing liquid with no reduction of beading at all - BUT for corrosion protection and swirl reduction they can't match AB. 

Hope this is of interest.

Pete


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## isherdholi (Sep 18, 2007)

Bilt-Hamber Lab said:


> Autobalm was develped as a protective LSP - its does this by providing a truly continuous film, this creates an even surface tension (but it's not as low as wax, or silicone) so water beading is not as strong with this material as say carnauba. However its protection depends on this uniformity and in accelerated corrosion tests waxes just can't compete. It's also the case that for swirl reduction the continuous film is the key - light reflection is uniform. After washing the hyrophobic tails that are present in Autobalms film can be "flattened" by the surfactants in the wash. But upon through drying they'll be back to normal, hence the rain water effect mentioned above.
> 
> I suppose for those wanting rapid water shifting and beading the lowest surface-tension materials will be of interest - we have some lab samples that are surving 10 + scrubbing sessions ( 30 second scrub over 4 x 2 inch area) with neat dish washing liquid with no reduction of beading at all - BUT for corrosion protection and swirl reduction they can't match AB.
> 
> ...


So are you saying you have lab samples of an LSP which will bead/sheet better than Autobalm, but may not protect against corrosion or fill swirls as well as AB?

I'd be interested in this...


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## Bilt-Hamber Lab (Apr 11, 2008)

isherdholi said:


> So are you saying you have lab samples of an LSP which will bead/sheet better than Autobalm, but may not protect against corrosion or fill swirls as well as AB?
> 
> I'd be interested in this...


Yes, several these were made to do this. It's a case of deciding which property is of most importance really, we took a view with autobalm that the protection was paramount and the other properties followed - wouldn't want to change this either. Maybe a need for another product if the demand was there though.


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## PhillipM (Jun 7, 2007)

I found that while autobalm is slow and doesn't 'bead' as such, it's sheeting is virtually complete if you leave it a short while:



Autobalm is on the right, the left is a version I've been playing with specifically for better sheeting and beading for use on glass, but - it only lasts 4-6 weeks, where autobalm will stay on there 2-3 months easily, if not longer.


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## 94Luke (Mar 8, 2008)

Bilt-Hamber Lab said:


> Yes, several these were made to do this. It's a case of deciding which property is of most importance really, we took a view with autobalm that the protection was paramount and the other properties followed - wouldn't want to change this either. Maybe a need for another product if the demand was there though.


I would be very interested in this aswell, especially if it could be layered on top of AB


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